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<!DOCTYPE html> <html dir='ltr' xmlns='http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml' xmlns:b='http://www.google.com/2005/gml/b' xmlns:data='http://www.google.com/2005/gml/data' xmlns:expr='http://www.google.com/2005/gml/expr'> <head> <link href='https://www.blogger.com/static/v1/widgets/55013136-widget_css_bundle.css' rel='stylesheet' type='text/css'/> <meta content='text/html; charset=UTF-8' http-equiv='Content-Type'/> <meta content='blogger' name='generator'/> <link href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/favicon.ico' rel='icon' type='image/x-icon'/> <link href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/search/label/Ironclads' rel='canonical'/> <link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml" title="Hidden in Shadows - Atom" href="http://boggswood.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default" /> <link rel="alternate" type="application/rss+xml" title="Hidden in Shadows - RSS" href="http://boggswood.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default?alt=rss" /> <link rel="service.post" type="application/atom+xml" title="Hidden in Shadows - Atom" href="https://www.blogger.com/feeds/3138202318040749770/posts/default" /> <link rel="me" href="https://www.blogger.com/profile/02170439175265397893" />  <meta content='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/search/label/Ironclads' property='og:url'/> <meta content='Hidden in Shadows' property='og:title'/> <meta content='' property='og:description'/> <title>Hidden in Shadows: Ironclads</title> <style id='page-skin-1' type='text/css'></style> <link href='https://www.blogger.com/dyn-css/authorization.css?targetBlogID=3138202318040749770&zx=2e3fdc86-7a4f-40fa-b66e-f23a656d2bbb' media='none' onload='if(media!='all')media='all'' rel='stylesheet'/><noscript><link href='https://www.blogger.com/dyn-css/authorization.css?targetBlogID=3138202318040749770&zx=2e3fdc86-7a4f-40fa-b66e-f23a656d2bbb' rel='stylesheet'/></noscript> <meta name='google-adsense-platform-account' content='ca-host-pub-1556223355139109'/> <meta name='google-adsense-platform-domain' content='blogspot.com'/> </head> <body>  <div id='page'> <div id='page-in'>  <div id='header'>  <div id='header-info'> <div class='a1header section' id='a1header'><div class='widget Header' data-version='1' id='Header1'> <div id='header-inner'> <div class='titlewrapper'> <h1 class='title'> <a href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/'>Hidden in Shadows</a> </h1> </div> <div class='descriptionwrapper'> <p class='description'><span> </span></p> </div> </div> </div></div> </div>  </div>   <div id='main'>  <div id='content'> <div class='post section' id='main'><div class='widget Blog' data-version='1' id='Blog1'> <div class='blog-posts hfeed'> <div class='status-msg-wrap'> <div class='status-msg-body'> Showing posts with label <b>Ironclads</b>. <a href="http://boggswood.blogspot.com/">Show all posts</a> </div> <div class='status-msg-border'> <div class='status-msg-bg'> <div class='status-msg-hidden'>Showing posts with label <b>Ironclads</b>. <a href="http://boggswood.blogspot.com/">Show all posts</a></div> </div> </div> </div> <div style='clear: both;'></div>  <div class='post-titlsse'> <a name='7983862995291888054'></a> <div class='post-title'> <h2> <a href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2019/04/thoughts-on-arnesons-armor-class.html'>Thoughts on Arneson's "Armor class"</a> </h2> Author: DHBoggs / Labels: <a href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/search/label/History' rel='tag'>History</a>, <a href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/search/label/Ironclads' rel='tag'>Ironclads</a> </div> <div class='post-entry'> <p><span style="font-size: large;">This he said many times, such as:</span><br /> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span> <span style="font-size: large;">" I adopted the rules I'd done earlier for a Civil War game called Ironclads that had hit points and armor class. It meant that players had a chance to live longer and do more. They didn't care that they had hit points to keep track of because they were just keeping track of little detailed records for their character and not trying to do it for an entire army. They didn't care if they could kill a monster in one blow, but they didn't want the monster to kill them in one blow." <i> </i>Dave Arneson<i>, Gamespy</i> Interview 2004</span><br /> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span> <span style="font-size: large;">Yet when we look at all the old material from the <i>First Fantasy Campaign</i>, there seems to be no evidence of anything that could be construed of as an "Armor Class".  Certainly none of the monsters have any sort of corresponding statistic in any of the old material anywhere.</span><br /> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span> <span style="font-size: large;">But then again, why should they?  After all "Armor" class in a ship game only applies to the actual metal or wood plating protecting the ship.  Think about that.  We are so accustomed now, 45 years after D&D was published, to think of "Armor Class" as merely a general term for defense quality, we easily forget that "Armor" normally refers to a defensive shell or jacket of some kind, not skin or fur.</span><br /> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span> <span style="font-size: large;">Why would a monster have an Armor class unless it was wearing actual armor?</span><br /> <span style="font-size: large;">  </span><br /> <span style="font-size: large;">In D&D, monsters have an Armor Class because it is inherent in the d20 combat method.   The attacker's target number is determined by the targets AC.  Giving both characters and monster an AC number was a decision per design - a design for a method we find no evidence for in pre D&D Blackmoor.</span><br /> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span> <span style="font-size: large;">Moreover we can say with little doubt that the D&D Armor Class system as it stands was put in place by Gary Gygax, modeled directly on his types of Armor listed in <i>CHAINMAIL. </i> It's worth reposting here the quote I mentioned back in 2012.  </span><span style="font-size: large;">On the Troll Lords (C&C) forum Gary Gygax wrote: </span><br /> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span> <span style="font-size: large;">“I rather stepped in it when I reversed the AC system in the Chainmail man-to-man rules for the OD&D game. Had I not, then better armor classes would have simply progresses in higher numbers.”  Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:47 pm</span><br /> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span> <span style="font-size: large;">Obviously then, for Arneson's statements to have validity, whatever he was doing in his game with Armor was something different.</span><br /> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span> <span style="font-size: large;">We seem to have a good handle on how a character attacked a monster in early Blackmoor, and unlike in D&D, it had nothing to do with a monster AC.  Basically the player would roll 2d6 against their weapon score.  If they beat it, they would seemingly roll all their Hit Dice for a damage total along with any bonus.  Arneson also said he allowed a saving throw to avoid damage - probably only for Player Characters.</span><br /> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span> <span style="font-size: large;">For the typical monster "Armor Class" played no role.</span><br /> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span> <span style="font-size: large;">So, it is perhaps not surprising the FFC monster entries have no hint of Armor Class.  Even the Balrog in Blackmoor dungeon wearing a mail shirt has no special numbers attached in consequence.</span><br /> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span> <span style="font-size: large;">So was Arneson lying or delusional regarding the claim that he added Armor Class to his early games?  Did armor have any mechanical meaning in pre D&D Blackmoor?</span><br /> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span> <span style="font-size: large;">First, lets discard the notion that use of the term "Armor Class" or "Class of Armor" is somehow at all anything to care about.  A rose is a rose, to paraphrase.</span><br /> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span> <span style="font-size: large;">What we are interested to answer is if Arneson had a method one might recognize functionally  as "Armor Class", regardless of what he may have called it at the time.</span><br /> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span> <span style="font-size: large;">Further, we would be looking at this method as primarily applying to players.  That is, that Armor would usually only be worn by player characters, and usually only be relevant to characters in mechanical terms.</span><br /> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span> <span style="font-size: large;">Further still, this application of "armor class" might be the key to understanding how monsters attacked player characters in early Blackmoor.  We've seen plenty of evidence suggesting that players attacked via their weapon skill score, but there is no evidence at all that monsters attacked characters that way.  In fact, lots of monsters don't use anything but tooth and claw, and it is clear that Arneson did not bother to roll up tooth and claw target numbers or  corresponding weapon skill numbers for any of the monsters that did use weapons,  They must have had some other kind of target number for determining hits.  </span><br /> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span> <span style="font-size: large;">Initially, we might safely assume that Arneson continued to use the CM Fantasy Combat Table to determine a monster hit on a player.  However, that table is quite limited in scope, and Arneson does repeatedly insist it was dropped altogether as they added more monsters and character types.  So, if true, at some point Arneson must have introduced some other way for monsters to score hits on player characters, and that could certainly have been an AC type system.</span><br /> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span> <span style="font-size: large;">I mentioned there is no hint of Armor Class for monsters in the FFC, or indeed any of the other early material, but there is one curious exception:</span><br /> <div> <br /></div> <div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"> <a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgzv-TtIeT-wRqHrVZHbplZ2c_IKFj69-OaEZrPy6aKc7shLVtfU8BYEY00gOupdbI1ZV_CZN7pGtiEmXNEoaoUgbGdeyCwQ9QqOlJsDCtNaZDXLOh94WaFeTIytkV9RPjcfeIir7G9gBE/s1600/Robots.JPG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="50" data-original-width="963" height="32" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgzv-TtIeT-wRqHrVZHbplZ2c_IKFj69-OaEZrPy6aKc7shLVtfU8BYEY00gOupdbI1ZV_CZN7pGtiEmXNEoaoUgbGdeyCwQ9QqOlJsDCtNaZDXLOh94WaFeTIytkV9RPjcfeIir7G9gBE/s640/Robots.JPG" width="640" /></a></div> <div> <br /></div> <div> <div> <span style="font-size: large;">The robots entry appears in a list Arneson claims is of pre-D&D magic items.  They are in fact all sci-fi kinds of things like tricorders and Medical Units.  Dating this with any certainty is problematic, though non-standard references like +5 Magical Armor and "10-sided dice" (the old d20's numbered 0-9 twice) make it feel later rather than earlier, perhaps well into 1973.  Nevertheless that 1-6 AC for robots is really odd.  For D&D 2-9 AC you would have to add 1, and even then you would be ignoring the possibility of AC 8 or 9.  Why not use a d10 and ignore the 1 and 0?  Taken simply at face value, it seems as though Arneson is saying he uses a 1-6 AC system.</span></div> <div> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span></div> <div> <span style="font-size: large;">That robot entry was something I've puzzled over for a long time, but more recently two key bits of evidence surfaced that may shed light on this and what may have served as an Armor Class target number in early Blackmoor.  The first is Dave Megarry's character sheets.  According to Megarry, the "square" numbers written on his character sheets applied to "hit class / armor class"  Across the 19 characters on the sheets, these numbers range from 0 to 4.  Regarding those "square" numbers, Megarry said, "The armor class dealt with what type of armor you had bought or acquired: no armor = 0; leather armor = 1; chainmail = 2; plate armor = 4."</span></div> <div> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span></div> <div> <span style="font-size: large;">A second bit of evidence for a numbering system like this is found in some curious pencil notes John Snider wrote on the side of his reference sheets (the ones that came with his original D&D boxed set), probably in 1975, since most of the notes added to the sheet concern the new material in Supplement II, Greyhawk.  However, the notes on the hit table are something else altogether:</span></div> <div> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span></div> <div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"> <a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjkb0P_enctfKnEajjXjyC4fw8wn2uFEjXP1yM-ifM9BGyp0Rz2Z88BUmue7CRhssCfCYYBVeeTjxncb2OTMchrisXvlq5xUkzPev3l7uktNeP1KE4MBAuKmVmdhImipx10Cmvamj5SrmE/s1600/ArmorTypesNumbers.JPG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="562" data-original-width="692" height="323" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjkb0P_enctfKnEajjXjyC4fw8wn2uFEjXP1yM-ifM9BGyp0Rz2Z88BUmue7CRhssCfCYYBVeeTjxncb2OTMchrisXvlq5xUkzPev3l7uktNeP1KE4MBAuKmVmdhImipx10Cmvamj5SrmE/s400/ArmorTypesNumbers.JPG" width="400" /></a></div> <div> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span></div> <div> <span style="font-size: large;"></span><br /> <div> <span style="font-size: large;">What's particularly interesting is that John Snider doesn't seem quite sure where the numbers should go.  The number 3 is entirely missing and 4 appears across from Chain Mail & shield, but has a dash mark clearly connecting it to just Chain Mail.  What that hints at, is that the D&D/Chainmail armor scheme was not the same as the 0-5 system he is trying to map on to it.  In other words, two different and not entirely compatible ways of categorizing armor.</span></div> <span style="font-size: large;"> </span> <br /> <div> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span></div> <span style="font-size: large;"> </span> <br /> <div> <span style="font-size: large;">Megarry seemed to have the same difficulty with "3" in his description to me above.</span></div> <span style="font-size: large;"> </span> <br /> <div> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span></div> <span style="font-size: large;"> </span> <br /> <div> <span style="font-size: large;"> Perhaps that is a clue that Arneson's system was more general than the detailed CM armor scheme, something like what we see in older medieval rules with "half armor" and so on, such as this example from Don Featherstone's <i>Advanced War Games </i>of 1969:</span></div> <span style="font-size: large;"> </span> <div> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span></div> <span style="font-size: large;"> </span></div> <div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"> <a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhAOyiujg4EWYBEc5W_3gyRQrRx-WtrWJoCFGw-JtU9iDOI2gSU2XU5B_k5TlEdyYk5_iOv0FumjsRGr9e480LgMBrMpfvFCOj2kSLbuHWchhq6fX9CZOztJd2dujAKt5S2ioteG2-RjFc/s1600/Featherstone1969armorclip.JPG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="107" data-original-width="490" height="86" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhAOyiujg4EWYBEc5W_3gyRQrRx-WtrWJoCFGw-JtU9iDOI2gSU2XU5B_k5TlEdyYk5_iOv0FumjsRGr9e480LgMBrMpfvFCOj2kSLbuHWchhq6fX9CZOztJd2dujAKt5S2ioteG2-RjFc/s400/Featherstone1969armorclip.JPG" width="400" /></a></div> <div> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span></div> <div> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span></div> <div> <span style="font-size: large;"></span><br /> <div> <span style="font-size: large;">A generalized scheme like this is a possibility, but we should also consider that Sniders notes were referencing a more concrete scheme.</span></div> <span style="font-size: large;"> </span> <br /> <div> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span></div> <span style="font-size: large;"> </span> <br /> <div> <span style="font-size: large;">These ideas are hard to test, but we do have some corroborating evidence, again from Megarry's character sheets.  One of Megarry's characters does list what armor they owned.</span></div> <span style="font-size: large;"> </span> <br /> <div> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span></div> <span style="font-size: large;"> </span> <br /> <div> <span style="font-size: large;">H.W. Dumbo, who's "square" number was 2</span></div> <span style="font-size: large;"> </span> <div> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span></div> <span style="font-size: large;"> <div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"> <a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiiFzYZTcoi7Mj3zNWMdy2rqOOJ6l1gENjOdEKV684RWSjNqsn4aBIBbgeIy5_Oq2QP04JlLqfEu_6MN65YC2-trgC8-7I1K6F8ddvxfUvmS7kBEhejHGK07lygjrxL0SyI_WLJjn2ddBE/s1600/Dumbo+Number.JPG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="137" data-original-width="141" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiiFzYZTcoi7Mj3zNWMdy2rqOOJ6l1gENjOdEKV684RWSjNqsn4aBIBbgeIy5_Oq2QP04JlLqfEu_6MN65YC2-trgC8-7I1K6F8ddvxfUvmS7kBEhejHGK07lygjrxL0SyI_WLJjn2ddBE/s1600/Dumbo+Number.JPG" /></a></div> <div> <br /></div> <div> and who owned leather armor:</div> <div> <br /></div> <div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"> <a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgD3EI8r0T7TkTDkIsegl3wqfYjp40LuiFYICfsJBurPpCsA-bveuHthn_-w73XWvv374kr3I4T_it_izBurYo2pWswmmU4Y8174vExFHxdDsoIgDnKIUMRoVMsikFg0mWisY6rrfUPZCc/s1600/Dumbo+Armor.JPG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="69" data-original-width="220" height="125" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgD3EI8r0T7TkTDkIsegl3wqfYjp40LuiFYICfsJBurPpCsA-bveuHthn_-w73XWvv374kr3I4T_it_izBurYo2pWswmmU4Y8174vExFHxdDsoIgDnKIUMRoVMsikFg0mWisY6rrfUPZCc/s400/Dumbo+Armor.JPG" width="400" /></a></div> <div> <br /></div> <div> There is also another of Megarry's characters, the Scholaress, whose "square" number was 4,</div> <div> <br /></div> <div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"> <a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjpTfWdABSWW43a8OCsIGF2TxCdM4w3P5U22AqF62VVq2hUnBlkMw1jVM08NHNFw_ofC6KiNuWEwVNbIl_TMh-nbwyEvp8tDmHAGg99phyphenhyphenbvfJeW9PvYd7GDf6Wnt52GfoUdqrJD6CdetY/s1600/Scholaress+square.JPG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="155" data-original-width="215" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjpTfWdABSWW43a8OCsIGF2TxCdM4w3P5U22AqF62VVq2hUnBlkMw1jVM08NHNFw_ofC6KiNuWEwVNbIl_TMh-nbwyEvp8tDmHAGg99phyphenhyphenbvfJeW9PvYd7GDf6Wnt52GfoUdqrJD6CdetY/s1600/Scholaress+square.JPG" /></a></div> <div> <br /></div> <div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"> </div> <div> and as Megarry remembered to me back in October of 2016, "I was not much into shields as they used one arm in combat and was hard to carry. I liked bow and arrow weapons and did not use shields. I did like leather armor as it gave a minimal protection for a relatively cheap cost. The Scholaress did have chainmail as she had money..."</div> <div> <div> <br /></div> <div> Note that in both cases, the square number matches the number on John Sniders list; 2 = leather, and 4 = chainmail.  So in these two cases, there does appear to be a direct correlation between John Sniders armor numbers and the "square" numbers of Megarry's characters.</div> <div> <br /></div> <div> Intriguing as that is, it isn't essential to try to guess whether "Leather Armor" corresponded to "AC 2" or 3 or whatever in Arneson's system, because it need not have been a 1 to 1 correspondence of this nature.  It doesn't especially matter if it was or wasn't.   All we actually would need to know is whether he did in fact have a numeric range, somehow going from worst to best, or vice versa, functioning as an "Armor Class" in combat.  </div> <div> <br /></div> <div> With this apparent 1-6 Armor scheme in mind, our next question is whether there is any connection to Arneson's Ironclads game as he claimed.  So lets go back and look at some of the armor rules from the Ironclads game. Here is a table in Arneson's hand which shows what guns can penetrate what armor:</div> <div> <br /></div> </div> <div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"> <a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgn2SalyRc_gTFLcL8mFUnwRejgiiCRNLW_E39FNo7H5Sc-r9tViUaGOzVE6Y6poQy0C9W8PGBWlF0KMIzwnXgWfvpwCOlqMD3jk3ZwzhTYr7q6ZNJbIB7H8YdQgjIZ8Kwegk1MDQ2w3-0/s1600/Table.JPG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="163" data-original-width="602" height="107" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgn2SalyRc_gTFLcL8mFUnwRejgiiCRNLW_E39FNo7H5Sc-r9tViUaGOzVE6Y6poQy0C9W8PGBWlF0KMIzwnXgWfvpwCOlqMD3jk3ZwzhTYr7q6ZNJbIB7H8YdQgjIZ8Kwegk1MDQ2w3-0/s400/Table.JPG" width="400" /></a></div> <div> <br /></div> <div> <div> Without getting into the weeds on this chart, I'll just explain that it seems to indicate that type 2 through 5 guns (detailed elsewhere by caliber) are capable of penetrating the armor thicknesses listed up to 12" distant for rifled cannon and up to 6" distant for smoothbores.  The important point to take notice of here is that we again see essentially 4 grades of armor.</div> <div> <br /></div> <div> Otherwise, there is nothing about this table that seems readily adaptable to a single person melee game.  Sure you could translate caliber of guns into various hand held weapons - but let's not go down that rabbit hole.</div> <div> <br /></div> <div> Instead let's turn our attention to another section of the Ironclads rules which shows what score is needed by these same gun types at various ranges, from 36" distant, where only a wooden ship can be hit, to within 6", where all ship types can be hit.  There are several of these tables for different ranges.<br /> <br /></div> <div> Keeping in mind that we are considering applicability to hand to hand melee, distance effects on armor penetration are not the issue.  So we will look only at the close range table.</div> <div> <br /></div> <div>  Here then, is the table showing the scores needed to penetrate armor for up close fighting (up to 6"):</div> <div> <br /></div> </div> <div> <table border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="MsoTableGrid" style="border-collapse: collapse; border: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-table-layout-alt: fixed; mso-yfti-tbllook: 1184; width: 331px;"> <tbody> <tr style="height: 10.25pt; mso-yfti-firstrow: yes; mso-yfti-irow: 0;"> <td style="border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; height: 10.25pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 3.45in;" valign="top" width="331"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">2-3-4-5-6 on wood</span></div> </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 23.4pt; mso-yfti-irow: 1;"> <td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; height: 23.4pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 3.45in;" valign="top" width="331"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">3-4-5-6 on 4” or less armor<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 23.4pt; mso-yfti-irow: 2;"> <td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; height: 23.4pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 3.45in;" valign="top" width="331"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">4-5-6 on 4”-8” armor</span></div> </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 23.4pt; mso-yfti-irow: 3; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes;"> <td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; height: 23.4pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 3.45in;" valign="top" width="331"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">5, 6 on 8”+ armor</span><o:p></o:p></div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> </div> <div> <br /></div> <div> We could rewrite that as follows</div> <div> <br /></div> <div> <table border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="MsoTableGrid" style="border-collapse: collapse; border: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-yfti-tbllook: 1184;"> <tbody> <tr> <td style="border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 1.2in;" valign="top" width="115"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">Roll over <o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">D6<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-left: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 99.0pt;" valign="top" width="132"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">Roll equal or over D6<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-left: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 157.5pt;" valign="top" width="210"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <br /></div> </td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 1.2in;" valign="top" width="115"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">0<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 99.0pt;" valign="top" width="132"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">1<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 157.5pt;" valign="top" width="210"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <br /></div> </td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 1.2in;" valign="top" width="115"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">1<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 99.0pt;" valign="top" width="132"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">2<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 157.5pt;" valign="top" width="210"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;"> wood<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 1.2in;" valign="top" width="115"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">2<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 99.0pt;" valign="top" width="132"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">3<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 157.5pt;" valign="top" width="210"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;"> 4” or less armor<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 1.2in;" valign="top" width="115"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">3<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 99.0pt;" valign="top" width="132"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">4<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 157.5pt;" valign="top" width="210"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">4”-8” armor<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 1.2in;" valign="top" width="115"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">4<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 99.0pt;" valign="top" width="132"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">5<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 157.5pt;" valign="top" width="210"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">8”+ armor</span><o:p></o:p></div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> </div> <div> <br /></div> <div> <div> Let me be clear about what I'm saying.  If, we take Megarry seriously and accept that the square numbers on his character sheet are "hit types/Armor Classes" and we take Arneson seriously that he derived an "Armor Class" hit system from his Ironclad game, we find a compatible expression of those two statements in the table representing armor penetration at 6" or less - which is of course where we would expect to find it.</div> <div> <br /></div> <div> If we further assume that John Snider's notes represent an attempt to map Arneson's armor scheme onto the D&D/CM types, or something close to it, our table will look like this:</div> </div> <div> \</div> </span></div> <div> <table border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="MsoTableGrid" style="border-collapse: collapse; border: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-yfti-tbllook: 1184;"> <tbody> <tr> <td style="border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 1.2in;" valign="top" width="115"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">Roll equal or over D6<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-left: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 2.0in;" valign="top" width="192"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">Armor Type<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-left: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 135.0pt;" valign="top" width="180"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">Ironclads<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 1.2in;" valign="top" width="115"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">1<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 2.0in;" valign="top" width="192"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <br /></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 135.0pt;" valign="top" width="180"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <br /></div> </td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 1.2in;" valign="top" width="115"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">2<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 2.0in;" valign="top" width="192"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">Leather<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 135.0pt;" valign="top" width="180"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;"> wood<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 1.2in;" valign="top" width="115"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">3<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 2.0in;" valign="top" width="192"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">Leather and Shield*<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 135.0pt;" valign="top" width="180"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;"> 4” or less armor<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 1.2in;" valign="top" width="115"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">4<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 2.0in;" valign="top" width="192"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">Chain Mail<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 135.0pt;" valign="top" width="180"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">4”-8” armor<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 1.2in;" valign="top" width="115"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">5<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 2.0in;" valign="top" width="192"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">Plate Mail<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 135.0pt;" valign="top" width="180"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">8”+ armor</span><o:p></o:p></div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> </div> <div> <span style="font-size: large;"></span><br /> <div> <span style="font-size: large;">*Another way to express this would be to say that a shield adds 1 to "light" or no armor.</span></div> <span style="font-size: large;"> </span> <br /> <div> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span></div> <span style="font-size: large;"> </span> <br /> <div> <span style="font-size: large;">We can further speculate on how shields might have fit in, like this:</span></div> <span style="font-size: large;"> </span> <br /> <div> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span></div> <span style="font-size: large;"> </span> <br /> <div> <table border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="MsoTableGrid" style="border-collapse: collapse; border: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-yfti-tbllook: 1184;"> <tbody> <tr> <td style="border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 1.0in;" valign="top" width="96"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">Roll equal or over D6<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-left: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 2.45in;" valign="top" width="235"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">Armor Type<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-left: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 130.5pt;" valign="top" width="174"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">Ironclads<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 1.0in;" valign="top" width="96"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">1<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 2.45in;" valign="top" width="235"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <br /></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 130.5pt;" valign="top" width="174"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <br /></div> </td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 1.0in;" valign="top" width="96"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">2<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 2.45in;" valign="top" width="235"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">Leather or shield<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 130.5pt;" valign="top" width="174"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;"> wood<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 1.0in;" valign="top" width="96"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">3<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 2.45in;" valign="top" width="235"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">Leather and Shield<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 130.5pt;" valign="top" width="174"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;"> 4” or less armor<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 1.0in;" valign="top" width="96"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">4<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 2.45in;" valign="top" width="235"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">Chain Mail<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 130.5pt;" valign="top" width="174"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">4”-8” armor<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 1.0in;" valign="top" width="96"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">5<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 2.45in;" valign="top" width="235"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">Plate Mail or Chain Mail and Shield<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 130.5pt;" valign="top" width="174"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">8”+ armor<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 1.0in;" valign="top" width="96"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">6<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 2.45in;" valign="top" width="235"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">Plate Mail and Shield<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 130.5pt;" valign="top" width="174"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <br /></div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> </div> <span style="font-size: large;"> </span></div> <div> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span></div> <div> <span style="font-size: large;">Alternatively, if we assume a more general scheme:</span></div> <div> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span></div> <div> <table border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="MsoTableGrid" style="border-collapse: collapse; border: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-yfti-tbllook: 1184;"> <tbody> <tr> <td style="border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 63.9pt;" valign="top" width="85"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">Roll over D6<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-left: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 1.5in;" valign="top" width="144"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">Armor Type<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-left: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 148.5pt;" valign="top" width="198"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">Ironclads<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 63.9pt;" valign="top" width="85"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">1<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 1.5in;" valign="top" width="144"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">Shield<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 148.5pt;" valign="top" width="198"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;"> wood<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 63.9pt;" valign="top" width="85"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">2<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 1.5in;" valign="top" width="144"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">Light Armor<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 148.5pt;" valign="top" width="198"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;"> 4” or less armor<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 63.9pt;" valign="top" width="85"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">3<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 1.5in;" valign="top" width="144"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">Medium Armor<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 148.5pt;" valign="top" width="198"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">4”-8” armor<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 63.9pt;" valign="top" width="85"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <span style="font-size: large;">4<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 1.5in;" valign="top" width="144"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">Heavy Armor<o:p></o:p></span></div> </td> <td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 148.5pt;" valign="top" width="198"><div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"> <span style="font-size: large;">8”+ armor</span><o:p></o:p></div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> </div> <div> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span></div> <div> <span style="font-size: large;"></span><br /> <div> <span style="font-size: large;">We can play around with these numbers all day, but that's likely pointless.  In adapting Ironclads to his game, Arneson had no need of a formal table.  He had a mechanic in place: roll a d6 against a target number assigned to represent the armor.  As referee, he need only decide for himself if the chainmail hauberk worn by the character constituted the equivalent of the 4"-8" category armor in Ironclads.  It seems well within Arnesons modus operandi to have done exactly that sort of seat of the pants approximating.  Nevertheless, the evidence from Megarry's character sheets coupled with John Snider's notes do seem to show a correspondence between particular numbers and particular armor types.</span></div> <span style="font-size: large;"> </span> <br /> <div> <span style="font-size: large;"><span style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span></div> <span style="font-size: large;"> </span> <br /> <div> <span style="font-size: large;">The convergence of all these data points do appear to reveal a real system drawn from Ironclads, providing a meaningful explanation of Arneson's claim to have had "Armor Class" in his game, whatever he may have called it  </span></div> <span style="font-size: large;"> </span> <br /> <div> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span></div> <span style="font-size: large;"> </span> <br /> <div> <span style="font-size: large;">There are some other niggling bits of information this method would also serve to explain.  In my notes from a phone conversation with David Megarry in April of 2017, he said Arneson would ask your characters Armor class and then roll dice (d6's) to determine a hit.  The number of  "Hit Dice" rolled depended on the strength of the monster - bigger monster = more dice.</span></div> <span style="font-size: large;"> </span> <div> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span></div> <span style="font-size: large;"> <div> This has long bothered me because it makes no sense in terms of either the weapon based hit system we see on the character sheets, or any of the CHAINMAIL systems.  Even the mass combat table, which does incorporate rolling more dice, does so to increase the opportunities for the number of straight kills, without any concern for armor.  It is a different sort of system for a different sort of combat problem.</div> <div> <br /></div> <div> However, Ironclads does increase your armor busting dice based on "the strength of the monster", or rather the number of cannon you bring to bear on the target.  For the heavy guns, you get 1 die per gun, ranging to the lightest guns which are 4 guns per die.</div> <div> <br /></div> <div> Note, that these target numbers don't themselves change with the "experience" of the ship, which, translated into a character based system would mean the target number to penetrate a suite of armor in melee was whatever it was, the same regardless of the level of the character swinging the sword.  The increased chance for a hit would be purely in having more dice to roll.</div> <div> <br /></div> <div> In this context it is interesting to re-examine Richard Sniders dragons, as detailed in the FFC.  This section is not part of his campaign RPG rules - what we are styling the Richard Snider Variant.  Here Dragons are given levels and damage (hit point) ratings, with the weakest dragon starting identically to human fighters at 7, 14, 21 and growing.  Snider gives each dragon type "Hit Dice" per level, which he explains as:</div> <div> <br /></div> <div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"> <a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgdkeGtFp_g7fLcZV0oXNjzkMxVE6cH0UFVYFEOm3cdcVAKSUlFocY3L_MO2gvVpSSwN0mMlSVGUMOxWMI-zdMV-w55DplO5qhWhyKyOSEVYYnqiaayNy4krVBtklxwxhOWqgmeSrHnA3M/s1600/DragonHD.JPG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="54" data-original-width="884" height="36" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgdkeGtFp_g7fLcZV0oXNjzkMxVE6cH0UFVYFEOm3cdcVAKSUlFocY3L_MO2gvVpSSwN0mMlSVGUMOxWMI-zdMV-w55DplO5qhWhyKyOSEVYYnqiaayNy4krVBtklxwxhOWqgmeSrHnA3M/s640/DragonHD.JPG" width="640" /></a></div> <div> <div> The natural way for us to read this is to equate HD to damage dice, and indeed, that may be correct.  However, it is also possible that it means more than this.  The "Blackmoor System" need not have been some singular clean method.  </div> <div> <br /></div> <div> Perhaps characters and creatures roll all their HD when attacking, as suggested in the Ironclads derived method above.  In this case, the unarmored target would take the full number of hits indicated by the HD, possibly mitigated by a saving throw for no damage.</div> <div> <br /></div> <div> The armored target would only take as many hits as have successfully penetrated their armor.  In Ironclads, each hit resulted in 1 point of damage, however it would be possible to determine the amount of damage by the number of points above the armor roll or simply equal to the number rolled.  Alternatively one could roll a separate damage roll if needed.    All this works fine for monsters attacking characters.</div> <div> <br /></div> <div> But, player characters have weapon skills, and can roll against their weapon skill when attacking monsters to determine a hit.  So in this case, with successful hits, the player would roll all their HD for damage - a distinct advantage since it would seem to ignore monster armor.</div> <div> <br /></div> <div> Both these uses of "Hit Dice", as damage dice, or as "to hit" dice, can work together quite easily, and may well have been used that way in Blackmoor .</div> </div> <div> <br /></div> </span></div> <div> <span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span></div> </div> <div> <br /></div> </p> <div style='clear: both;'></div> </div> <div class='post-infso'> <p class='post-info'><span class='post-comment-link'> <a 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href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy toggle-open'> ▼  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2025/'> 2025 </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate expanded'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy toggle-open'> ▼  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2025/01/'> January </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> <ul class='posts'> <li><a href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2025/01/the-stats-of-dave-arneson-player.html'>The Stats of a Dave Arneson Player Character.</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2024/'> 2024 </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(9)</span> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2024/12/'> December </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2024/08/'> August </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(3)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2024/07/'> July </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(2)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2024/06/'> June </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2024/05/'> May </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2024/02/'> February </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2023/'> 2023 </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(9)</span> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2023/12/'> December </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2023/08/'> August </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2023/07/'> July </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(3)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2023/06/'> June </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2023/05/'> May </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2023/03/'> March </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2023/02/'> February </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2022/'> 2022 </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(10)</span> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2022/11/'> November </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(3)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2022/08/'> August </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2022/07/'> July </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2022/05/'> May </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(2)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2022/02/'> February </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(2)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2022/01/'> January </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2021/'> 2021 </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(8)</span> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2021/11/'> November </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2021/07/'> July </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2021/05/'> May </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2021/04/'> April </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2021/02/'> February </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(2)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2021/01/'> January </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(2)</span> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2020/'> 2020 </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(17)</span> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2020/12/'> December </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(2)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2020/11/'> November </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(2)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2020/09/'> September </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2020/07/'> July </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(5)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2020/06/'> June </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2020/05/'> May </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2020/04/'> April </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2020/03/'> March </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2020/02/'> February </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(2)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2020/01/'> January </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2019/'> 2019 </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(14)</span> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2019/12/'> December </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2019/10/'> October </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(4)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2019/09/'> September </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(3)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2019/08/'> August </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2019/07/'> July </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(2)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2019/04/'> April </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(2)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2019/02/'> February </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2018/'> 2018 </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(13)</span> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2018/12/'> December </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2018/10/'> October </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2018/09/'> September </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2018/08/'> August </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(2)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2018/07/'> July </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(2)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2018/05/'> May </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2018/03/'> March </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2018/01/'> January </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(4)</span> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2017/'> 2017 </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(16)</span> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2017/12/'> December </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2017/11/'> November </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2017/10/'> October </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2017/09/'> September </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2017/08/'> August </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(3)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2017/07/'> July </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2017/05/'> May </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2017/03/'> March </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(2)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2017/02/'> February </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(2)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2017/01/'> January </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(3)</span> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2016/'> 2016 </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(14)</span> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2016/11/'> November </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2016/10/'> October </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(7)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2016/06/'> June </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2016/05/'> May </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(2)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2016/04/'> April </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(2)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a 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class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2014/10/'> October </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(7)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2014/09/'> September </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(11)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2014/08/'> August </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(9)</span> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2013/'> 2013 </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(6)</span> <ul 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