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comment</span> <ul id="toc-Murdered_or_targetted-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Murdered_or_killed_-_in_lead_section" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Murdered_or_killed_-_in_lead_section"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">5</span> <span>Murdered or killed - in lead section</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">41 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Murdered_or_killed_-_in_lead_section-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-New_section" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#New_section"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">6</span> <span>New section</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-New_section-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Deaths_with_which_he_had_no_connection" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Deaths_with_which_he_had_no_connection"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">7</span> <span>Deaths with which he had no connection</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">8 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Deaths_with_which_he_had_no_connection-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Assassination" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Assassination"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">8</span> <span>Assassination</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">15 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Assassination-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-PC" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#PC"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">9</span> <span>PC</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">12 comments</span> <ul id="toc-PC-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-NPOV_tag" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#NPOV_tag"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">10</span> <span>NPOV tag</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">16 comments</span> <ul id="toc-NPOV_tag-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-murdered_quotation_altered_by_Vintagekits" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#murdered_quotation_altered_by_Vintagekits"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">11</span> <span>murdered quotation altered by Vintagekits</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-murdered_quotation_altered_by_Vintagekits-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Shannon" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Shannon"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">12</span> <span>Shannon</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">6 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Shannon-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Re-order_and_re-write_rationale" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Re-order_and_re-write_rationale"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">13</span> <span>Re-order and re-write rationale</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Re-order_and_re-write_rationale-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-NYT" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#NYT"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">14</span> <span>NYT</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">6 comments</span> <ul id="toc-NYT-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-InfoBox" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#InfoBox"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">15</span> <span>InfoBox</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">8 comments</span> <ul id="toc-InfoBox-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-History_and_Biography_ratings" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#History_and_Biography_ratings"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">16</span> <span>History and Biography ratings</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-History_and_Biography_ratings-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Sir_Norman_Stronge_photo" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Sir_Norman_Stronge_photo"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">17</span> <span>Sir Norman Stronge photo</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Sir_Norman_Stronge_photo-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-1918-1938" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#1918-1938"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">18</span> 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</ul> </li> <li id="toc-Proscribed_Organisation..." class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Proscribed_Organisation..."> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">21</span> <span>Proscribed Organisation...</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">7 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Proscribed_Organisation...-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Consistency" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Consistency"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">22</span> <span>Consistency</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Consistency-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Unreliable_source" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Unreliable_source"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">23</span> <span>Unreliable source</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Unreliable_source-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-"Good_Article"" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#"Good_Article""> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">24</span> <span>"Good Article"</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-"Good_Article"-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-There_is_no_other_name_for_cold-blooded_MURDER." class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#There_is_no_other_name_for_cold-blooded_MURDER."> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">25</span> <span>There is no other name for cold-blooded MURDER.</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">21 comments</span> <ul id="toc-There_is_no_other_name_for_cold-blooded_MURDER.-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-External_links_modified" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#External_links_modified"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">26</span> <span>External links modified</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-External_links_modified-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </nav> </div> </div> <div class="mw-content-container"> <main id="content" class="mw-body"> <header class="mw-body-header vector-page-titlebar"> <nav aria-label="Contents" class="vector-toc-landmark"> <div id="vector-page-titlebar-toc" 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class="article-history tmbox tmbox-notice"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2" style="width:100%"><table class="article-history-milestones" style="width:100%;font-size:90%"><tbody><tr><th colspan="3" style="font-size:110%">Article milestones</th></tr><tr style="text-align:left"><th>Date</th><th>Process</th><th>Result</th></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Norman_Stronge&oldid=125996224">April 30, 2007</a></span></td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/A-class_review/Sir_Norman_Stronge,_8th_Baronet" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/A-class review/Sir Norman Stronge, 8th Baronet">WikiProject A-class review</a></b></td><td>Not approved</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1243927654">.mw-parser-output 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.wpb:not(.mw-collapsed) .wpb-header-icon a{display:none}</style><table role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice banner-shell wpbs mw-collapsible"><tbody><tr><td class="assess"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Symbol_b_class.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="B-Class article"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5f/Symbol_b_class.svg/35px-Symbol_b_class.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="36" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5f/Symbol_b_class.svg/53px-Symbol_b_class.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5f/Symbol_b_class.svg/70px-Symbol_b_class.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/></a></span></td><td class="banner-shell-header" style="text-align:left;font-weight:normal">This article is rated <b>B-class</b> on Wikipedia's <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_assessment" title="Wikipedia:Content assessment">content assessment</a> scale.<br/>It is of interest to the following <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject">WikiProjects</a>:</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="banner-shell-inner outercollapse"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1256394742">.mw-parser-output .wpb-header,.mw-parser-output .wpb-metadata,.mw-parser-output .wpb-iefix{display:none}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-name{text-align:right;padding:0.3em 1em 0.3em 0.3em;width:50%;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-assessment{text-align:left;width:50%;padding:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-combined{text-align:left;padding:0.3em 0.3em 0.3em 0;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-bubbles{border-radius:.5em;padding:0 .3em;margin-left:0.5em;white-space:nowrap;font-weight:normal;color:black}.mw-parser-output .wpb-nested-task-force{font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output 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.class-sl{background-color:#FFC0C0}.mw-parser-output .class-list{background-color:#D2C0FF}.mw-parser-output .class-na{background-color:#F5F5F5}.mw-parser-output .class-category{background-color:#FFDB58}.mw-parser-output .class-disambig{background-color:#00FA9A}.mw-parser-output .class-draft{background-color:#E7B198}.mw-parser-output .class-file{background-color:#DDCCFF}.mw-parser-output .class-future{background-color:#B4BBFF}.mw-parser-output .class-portal{background-color:#DDB1BC}.mw-parser-output .class-project{background-color:#C0C090}.mw-parser-output .class-redirect{background-color:#C0C0C0}.mw-parser-output .class-sia{background-color:#E9DAFF}.mw-parser-output .class-user{background-color:#DDD06A}.mw-parser-output .class-template{background-color:#FBCEB1}.mw-parser-output .class-unassessed{background-color:#DCDCDC}.mw-parser-output .conflict{border:0.2em solid red}.mw-parser-output .inactive-wikiproject .wpb-header-bubbles{color:inherit}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}</style><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Waricon.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Waricon.svg/25px-Waricon.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Waricon.svg/38px-Waricon.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Waricon.svg/50px-Waricon.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="140" data-file-height="140"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history">Military history</a><span class="wpb-nested-task-force">: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Military" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Military">Biography</a></span> </td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Waricon.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Waricon.svg/50px-Waricon.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Waricon.svg/75px-Waricon.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Waricon.svg/100px-Waricon.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="140" data-file-height="140"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article is within the scope of the <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history">Military history WikiProject</a></b>. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/Open_tasks" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Open tasks">list of open tasks</a>. To use this banner, please see the <a href="/wiki/Template:WikiProject_Military_history" title="Template:WikiProject Military history">full instructions</a>.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Military history</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Military history</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">military history articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess-b" style="padding-bottom:5px"><figure class="mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_assessment/B-Class_criteria" title="Wikipedia:Content assessment/B-Class criteria"><img alt="B checklist" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/25/Bclass-checklist.svg/20px-Bclass-checklist.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/25/Bclass-checklist.svg/30px-Bclass-checklist.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/25/Bclass-checklist.svg/40px-Bclass-checklist.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="100" data-file-height="100"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="wpb-collapsed-notes"><table class="plainlinks mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"><tbody><tr><th class="wpb-collapsed-head mbox-text" colspan="3" style="font-weight:normal">This article has been checked against the following <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/Assessment#Quality_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment">criteria</a></b> for B-class status:</th><td style="min-width:3em"></td></tr><tr><td style="font-size:90%"><ol><li><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/16px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/24px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/32px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span> Referencing and citation: <span style="font-style:italic">criterion met</span></li><li><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/16px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/24px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/32px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span> Coverage and accuracy: <span style="font-style:italic">criterion met</span></li><li><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/16px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/24px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/32px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span> Structure: <span style="font-style:italic">criterion met</span></li><li><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/16px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/24px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/32px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span> Grammar and style: <span style="font-style:italic">criterion met</span></li><li><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/16px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/24px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/32px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span> Supporting materials: <span style="font-style:italic">criterion met</span></li></ol></td><td style="font-size:88%"></td><td class="empty-cell"></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr><tr><td colspan="3" class="wpb-collapsed-notes"><table class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"><tbody><tr><th colspan="3" class="wpb-collapsed-head">Associated task forces:</th></tr><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-gutter" style="min-width:50px"><span class="wpb-iefix">/ </span></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Crystal_personal.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/30px-Crystal_personal.svg.png" decoding="async" width="30" height="30" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/45px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/60px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="70" data-file-height="70"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Military" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Military">Military biography task force</a></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256394742"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:NIShape.gif" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/NIShape.gif/33px-NIShape.gif" decoding="async" width="33" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/NIShape.gif/50px-NIShape.gif 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/NIShape.gif/66px-NIShape.gif 2x" data-file-width="532" data-file-height="405"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Northern_Ireland" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Northern Ireland">Northern Ireland</a> </td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:NIShape.gif" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/NIShape.gif/85px-NIShape.gif" decoding="async" width="85" height="65" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/NIShape.gif/128px-NIShape.gif 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/NIShape.gif/170px-NIShape.gif 2x" data-file-width="532" data-file-height="405"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1239009302">.mw-parser-output .portalbox{padding:0;margin:0.5em 0;display:table;box-sizing:border-box;max-width:175px;list-style:none}.mw-parser-output .portalborder{border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:0.1em;background:var(--background-color-neutral-subtle,#f8f9fa)}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-entry{display:table-row;font-size:85%;line-height:110%;height:1.9em;font-style:italic;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-image{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em;vertical-align:middle;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-link{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em;vertical-align:middle}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .portalleft{clear:left;float:left;margin:0.5em 1em 0.5em 0}.mw-parser-output .portalright{clear:right;float:right;margin:0.5em 0 0.5em 1em}}</style><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/NIShape.gif/32px-NIShape.gif" decoding="async" width="32" height="24" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/NIShape.gif/48px-NIShape.gif 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/NIShape.gif/64px-NIShape.gif 2x" data-file-width="532" data-file-height="405"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Northern_Ireland" title="Portal:Northern Ireland">Northern Ireland portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Northern_Ireland" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Northern Ireland">WikiProject Northern Ireland</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/Northern_Ireland" title="Northern Ireland">Northern Ireland</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Northern_Ireland" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Northern Ireland">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Northern Ireland</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Northern Ireland</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Northern Ireland</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Northern Ireland-related articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-unknown"><a href="/wiki/Category:Unknown-importance_Northern_Ireland-related_articles" title="Category:Unknown-importance Northern Ireland-related articles">???</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has not yet received a rating on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Northern_Ireland/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Northern Ireland/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256394742"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Ireland_smaller.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Ireland_smaller.svg/20px-Ireland_smaller.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Ireland_smaller.svg/31px-Ireland_smaller.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Ireland_smaller.svg/40px-Ireland_smaller.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="21" data-file-height="26"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Ireland" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland">Ireland</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-mid">Mid‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Ireland_smaller.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Ireland_smaller.svg/60px-Ireland_smaller.svg.png" decoding="async" width="60" height="74" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Ireland_smaller.svg/90px-Ireland_smaller.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Ireland_smaller.svg/120px-Ireland_smaller.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="21" data-file-height="26"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239009302"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="mw-image-border noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="flag" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Four_Provinces_Flag.svg/32px-Four_Provinces_Flag.svg.png" decoding="async" width="32" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Four_Provinces_Flag.svg/48px-Four_Provinces_Flag.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Four_Provinces_Flag.svg/64px-Four_Provinces_Flag.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1320" data-file-height="680"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Ireland" title="Portal:Ireland">Ireland portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Ireland" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland">WikiProject Ireland</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/Ireland" title="Ireland">Ireland</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ireland" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Ireland</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Ireland</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Ireland articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-mid"><a href="/wiki/Category:Mid-importance_Ireland_articles" title="Category:Mid-importance Ireland articles">Mid</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Mid-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Ireland/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256394742"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table inactive-wikiproject"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:People_icon_dead.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/People_icon_dead.svg/25px-People_icon_dead.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/People_icon_dead.svg/38px-People_icon_dead.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/People_icon_dead.svg/50px-People_icon_dead.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="100" data-file-height="100"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Unionism_in_Ireland" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Unionism in Ireland">Unionism in Ireland</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles"> (<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:INACTIVEWP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:INACTIVEWP">defunct</a>)</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:People_icon_dead.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/People_icon_dead.svg/40px-People_icon_dead.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/People_icon_dead.svg/60px-People_icon_dead.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/People_icon_dead.svg/80px-People_icon_dead.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="100" data-file-height="100"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article is within the scope of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Unionism_in_Ireland" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Unionism in Ireland">WikiProject Unionism in Ireland</a>, a project which is currently considered to be <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:INACTIVEWP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:INACTIVEWP">defunct</a></b>.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Unionism in Ireland</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Unionism in Ireland</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Unionism in Ireland</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Unionism in Ireland articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256394742"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Crystal_personal.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/25px-Crystal_personal.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/38px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/50px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="70" data-file-height="70"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography">Biography</a><span class="wpb-nested-task-force">: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Military" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Military">Military</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Peerage_and_Baronetage" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Peerage and Baronetage">Peerage and Baronetage</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Politics_and_government" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Politics and government">Politics and Government</a></span> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles"><span class="mw-default-size" typeof="mw:File"><span title="This article has failed an A-Class review."><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Symbol_unsupport_A_vote.svg/20px-Symbol_unsupport_A_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Symbol_unsupport_A_vote.svg/30px-Symbol_unsupport_A_vote.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Symbol_unsupport_A_vote.svg/40px-Symbol_unsupport_A_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="200" data-file-height="200"/></span></span></span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Crystal_personal.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/60px-Crystal_personal.svg.png" decoding="async" width="60" height="60" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/90px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/120px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="70" data-file-height="70"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239009302"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/69/P_vip.svg/28px-P_vip.svg.png" decoding="async" width="28" height="28" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/69/P_vip.svg/41px-P_vip.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/69/P_vip.svg/55px-P_vip.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1911" data-file-height="1944"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Biography" title="Portal:Biography">Biography portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography">WikiProject Biography</a></b>, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Members" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Members">join the project</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Biography" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography">contribute to the discussion</a>. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the <a href="/wiki/Template:WikiProject_Biography/doc" title="Template:WikiProject Biography/doc">documentation</a>.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Biography</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Biography</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">biography articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Swords.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/Swords.svg/25px-Swords.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/Swords.svg/38px-Swords.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/Swords.svg/50px-Swords.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="200" data-file-height="200"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article is supported by <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Military" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Military">the military biography work group</a></b> (assessed as <a href="/wiki/Category:Low-importance_biography_(military)_articles" title="Category:Low-importance biography (military) articles">Low-importance</a>).</td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:H%C3%A9raldique_ornement_Heaume_baronnet.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/H%C3%A9raldique_ornement_Heaume_baronnet.svg/28px-H%C3%A9raldique_ornement_Heaume_baronnet.svg.png" decoding="async" width="28" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/H%C3%A9raldique_ornement_Heaume_baronnet.svg/43px-H%C3%A9raldique_ornement_Heaume_baronnet.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/H%C3%A9raldique_ornement_Heaume_baronnet.svg/56px-H%C3%A9raldique_ornement_Heaume_baronnet.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="729" data-file-height="646"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article is supported by <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Peerage_and_Baronetage" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Peerage and Baronetage">WikiProject Peerage and Baronetage</a></b> (assessed as <a href="/wiki/Category:High-importance_biography_(peerage)_articles" title="Category:High-importance biography (peerage) articles">High-importance</a>).</td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:A_coloured_voting_box.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/01/A_coloured_voting_box.svg/25px-A_coloured_voting_box.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/01/A_coloured_voting_box.svg/38px-A_coloured_voting_box.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/01/A_coloured_voting_box.svg/50px-A_coloured_voting_box.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="160" data-file-height="160"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article is supported by <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Politics_and_government" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Politics and government">the politics and government work group</a></b>.</td></tr><tr><td style="background:#66ffff"><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Symbol_unsupport_A_vote.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Note icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Symbol_unsupport_A_vote.svg/25px-Symbol_unsupport_A_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Symbol_unsupport_A_vote.svg/38px-Symbol_unsupport_A_vote.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Symbol_unsupport_A_vote.svg/50px-Symbol_unsupport_A_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="200" data-file-height="200"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article <span style="font-weight:bold"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/A-class_review/Norman_Stronge" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/A-class review/Norman Stronge">has failed</a></span> an <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/A-class_review" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/A-class review">A-Class review</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256394742"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_(St_Edward%27s_Crown).svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_%28St_Edward%27s_Crown%29.svg/26px-Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_%28St_Edward%27s_Crown%29.svg.png" decoding="async" width="26" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_%28St_Edward%27s_Crown%29.svg/39px-Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_%28St_Edward%27s_Crown%29.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_%28St_Edward%27s_Crown%29.svg/52px-Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_%28St_Edward%27s_Crown%29.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1550" data-file-height="1500"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Politics_of_the_United_Kingdom" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom">Politics of the United Kingdom</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles"><span class="mw-default-size" typeof="mw:File"><span title="This article has been automatically rated by a bot or other tool because one or more other projects use this class. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the |auto= parameter."><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/8e/Robot_ic%C3%B4n.svg/18px-Robot_ic%C3%B4n.svg.png" decoding="async" width="18" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/8e/Robot_ic%C3%B4n.svg/27px-Robot_ic%C3%B4n.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/8e/Robot_ic%C3%B4n.svg/36px-Robot_ic%C3%B4n.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="91" data-file-height="100"/></span></span></span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_(St_Edward%27s_Crown).svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_%28St_Edward%27s_Crown%29.svg/80px-Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_%28St_Edward%27s_Crown%29.svg.png" decoding="async" width="80" height="77" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_%28St_Edward%27s_Crown%29.svg/120px-Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_%28St_Edward%27s_Crown%29.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_%28St_Edward%27s_Crown%29.svg/160px-Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_%28St_Edward%27s_Crown%29.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1550" data-file-height="1500"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Politics_of_the_United_Kingdom" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom">WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/Politics_of_the_United_Kingdom" title="Politics of the United Kingdom">Politics of the United Kingdom</a> on Wikipedia. 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Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the <code class="tpl-para" style="word-break:break-word;">|auto=</code> parameter.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Use_of_"targeted"" data-mw-thread-id="h-Use_of_"targeted"-2007-01-20T12:09:00.000Z"><span id="Use_of_.22targeted.22"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Use_of_"targeted"-2007-01-20T12:09:00.000Z"></span>Use of "targeted"<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Use_of_"targeted"-2007-01-20T12:09:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Norman_Stronge&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Use of "targeted""><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-01-20T12:09:00.000Z-Use_of_"targeted""></span>To the reader who does not know what occured this word is meaningless. The word murder is not PoV, it implies the deliberate killing of another, exactly what happened here. I think this page is being used by others to promote certain PoV's which, perhaps, believe in playing-down this murder.--<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Couter-revolutionary&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Couter-revolutionary (page does not exist)">Couter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-01-20T12:09:00.000Z-Use_of_"targeted"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:09, 20 January 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-01-20T12:09:00.000Z-Use_of_"targeted""><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-01-20T12:09:00.000Z-Use_of_"targeted""></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-01-20T12:35:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-01-20T12:09:00.000Z"></span>On the contrary, like someone else said about your articles - "long on celebration and short on effect" - the article is totally one sided.--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-01-20T12:35:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-01-20T12:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:35, 20 January 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-01-20T12:35:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-01-20T12:09:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-01-20T12:35:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-01-20T12:09:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-01-20T13:59:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-01-20T12:35:00.000Z"></span>I find it hard to see how the article is one sided when certain users want phrases used such as describing a murder as a death or the event as "targeting". Further and worst of all, it seemed to imply, until I clarified it, that Sir Norman had killed numerous Roman Catholics, and it was for this he was murdered.--<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Couter-revolutionary&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Couter-revolutionary (page does not exist)">Couter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-01-20T13:59:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-01-20T12:35:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-01-20T13:59:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-01-20T12:35:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-01-20T13:59:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-01-20T12:35:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-01-20T14:23:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-01-20T12:09:00.000Z"></span>We all know the REAL reason taken out - however his funding and that motive is not verifiable in any book that I have read.--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-01-20T14:23:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-01-20T12:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-01-20T14:23:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-01-20T12:09:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-01-20T14:23:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-01-20T12:09:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-01-20T15:29:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-01-20T14:23:00.000Z"></span>Few people have ever offended me more than you have just done; assuming you are implying what I think you are. --<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Couter-revolutionary&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Couter-revolutionary (page does not exist)">Couter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-01-20T15:29:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-01-20T14:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-01-20T15:29:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-01-20T14:23:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-01-20T15:29:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-01-20T14:23:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Quote" data-mw-thread-id="h-Quote-2007-02-07T22:56:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Quote-2007-02-07T22:56:00.000Z"></span>Quote<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Quote-2007-02-07T22:56:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Norman_Stronge&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Quote"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T22:56:00.000Z-Quote"></span>It is significant, it shows the mainstream republican reaction to his murder. To remove it clearly shows a PoV and if you continue to do this I shall have you written up, as it were. The quotation marks I added were purely for stylistic purposes.--<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Couter-revolutionary&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Couter-revolutionary (page does not exist)">Couter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T22:56:00.000Z-Quote" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T22:56:00.000Z-Quote"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T22:56:00.000Z-Quote"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-07T22:59:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T22:56:00.000Z"></span>I disagree, the quote is OTT and adds nothing to the article.--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-02-07T22:59:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T22:56:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:59, 7 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-07T22:59:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T22:56:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-07T22:59:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T22:56:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T23:01:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-07T22:59:00.000Z"></span>Do you disagree with my presentation of it or with its actual being there? You are clearly boiling over with PoV, this quote illustrates that Sir Norman was highly respected by both communities. It stays.--<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Couter-revolutionary&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Couter-revolutionary (page does not exist)">Couter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T23:01:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-07T22:59:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:01, 7 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T23:01:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-07T22:59:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T23:01:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-07T22:59:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-07T23:07:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T23:01:00.000Z"></span>Currie speaks for a community. Again it adds nothing to the article.--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-02-07T23:07:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T23:01:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-07T23:07:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T23:01:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-07T23:07:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T23:01:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T23:18:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-07T23:07:00.000Z"></span>You cannot remove information that is referenced. I have provided a reference which you deleted. The only explanation I can arise at is blatant PoV.--<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Couter-revolutionary&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Couter-revolutionary (page does not exist)">Couter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T23:18:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-07T23:07:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:18, 7 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T23:18:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-07T23:07:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T23:18:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-07T23:07:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-07T23:24:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T23:18:00.000Z"></span>Remember <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BB" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BB">WP:BB</a>, What does it add to the article.--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-02-07T23:24:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T23:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:24, 7 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-07T23:24:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T23:18:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-07T23:24:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T23:18:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T23:26:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-07T23:24:00.000Z"></span>I have outlined above what it adds.--<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Couter-revolutionary&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Couter-revolutionary (page does not exist)">Couter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T23:26:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-07T23:24:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:26, 7 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T23:26:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-07T23:24:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-07T23:26:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-07T23:24:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-08T00:27:00.000Z-Quote"></span>I fail to see why Currie's statement has been removed and is not considered important. It strikes me as a very important statement and fully merits being highlighted. Burke's peerage does happen to be considered a reliable source. <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-02-08T00:27:00.000Z-Quote" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:27, 8 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-08T00:27:00.000Z-Quote"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-08T00:27:00.000Z-Quote"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Rephrase" data-mw-thread-id="h-Rephrase-2007-02-08T00:33:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Rephrase-2007-02-08T00:33:00.000Z"></span>Rephrase<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Rephrase-2007-02-08T00:33:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Norman_Stronge&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Rephrase"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-08T00:33:00.000Z-Rephrase"></span>This creates an unfortunate ambiguity that he was murdered only briefly, as opposed to permanently: </p> <dl><dd>He is presumed to have been succeeded to the Baronetcy by his son James, who was murdered alongside him. [1], albeit only briefly.</dd></dl> <p>I think it should be: </p> <dl><dd>He is presumed to have been succeeded to the Baronetcy, albeit only briefly, by his son James, who was murdered alongside him.</dd></dl> <p><a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-02-08T00:33:00.000Z-Rephrase" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-08T00:33:00.000Z-Rephrase"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-08T00:33:00.000Z-Rephrase"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Murdered_or_targetted" data-mw-thread-id="h-Murdered_or_targetted-2007-02-17T21:27:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Murdered_or_targetted-2007-02-17T21:27:00.000Z"></span>Murdered or targetted<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Murdered_or_targetted-2007-02-17T21:27:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Norman_Stronge&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: Murdered or targetted"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-17T21:27:00.000Z-Murdered_or_targetted"></span>OK, very very minor edit war at the very most. Edit + revert v 2 reverts. I recommend <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BRD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BRD">WP:BRD</a>, i.e. an edit, a revert, then discussion. However, everyone is at fault for not opening a discussion on this page, which is what it's for. Don't leave such things just to edit summaries. I have looked at the ref and it appears that neither "murdered" nor "targetted" are mentioned. The simplest thing is to let the IRA speak for themselves without interpretation and let the reader make up his/her own mind as to what they wish to read into it. </p><p>Thus instead of: </p> <dl><dd>The IRA claimed Stronge was murdered in reprisal for sectarian killings of Catholics (with which he had no connection) and because he was a leading Orangeman"</dd></dl> <p>it would read: </p> <dl><dd>The IRA stated, "Sir Norman Stronge and his son were shot and their home burned because sectarian assassinations were claiming the lives of Catholics."</dd></dl> <p>I may have missed something here, but this seems the obvious solution. Please discuss below. </p><p><a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-02-17T21:27:00.000Z-Murdered_or_targetted" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:27, 17 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-17T21:27:00.000Z-Murdered_or_targetted"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-17T21:27:00.000Z-Murdered_or_targetted"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Murdered_or_killed_-_in_lead_section" data-mw-thread-id="h-Murdered_or_killed_-_in_lead_section-2007-02-17T21:27:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Murdered_or_killed_-_in_lead_section-2007-02-17T21:27:00.000Z"></span>Murdered or killed - in lead section<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Murdered_or_killed_-_in_lead_section-2007-02-17T21:27:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Norman_Stronge&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: Murdered or killed - in lead section"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-17T21:27:00.000Z-Murdered_or_killed_-_in_lead_section"></span>I would have thought the term "murdered" should occur in the lead section and that there would be a reliable source to validate it. The Commons biography says "killed" but the Tynan family history uses "murdered". Is there not a coroner's report or national newspaper report that clarifies this? </p><p><a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-02-17T21:27:00.000Z-Murdered_or_killed_-_in_lead_section" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:27, 17 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-17T21:27:00.000Z-Murdered_or_killed_-_in_lead_section"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-17T21:27:00.000Z-Murdered_or_killed_-_in_lead_section"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-18T01:47:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-17T21:27:00.000Z"></span>murdered is POV for a politically motivated killing. Murderers but get set free in a "peace agreement"! <small>—The preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Sign_your_posts_on_talk_pages" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages">unsigned</a> comment was added by <a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits"> Vintagekits</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Vintagekits" title="User talk:Vintagekits">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/_Vintagekits" title="Special:Contributions/ Vintagekits">contribs</a>).</small> <dl><dd>Please find a mainstream source for your assertion. As it is unsubstantiated, it has no bearing at the moment. <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-02-18T01:47:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-17T21:27:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:47, 18 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-18T01:47:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-17T21:27:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-18T01:47:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-17T21:27:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-18T02:29:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-18T01:47:00.000Z"></span>A deliberate killing is a MURDER. The term targeted is meaningless!--<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Couter-revolutionary&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Couter-revolutionary (page does not exist)">Couter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-18T02:29:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-18T01:47:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:29, 18 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-18T02:29:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-18T01:47:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-18T02:29:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-18T01:47:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-18T02:42:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-18T02:29:00.000Z"></span>WP policy is to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:VERIFY" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:VERIFY">VERIFY</a> by using <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">reliable sources</a>, so please find a source to verify your assertion, i.e. a source that has called it "murder". <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-02-18T02:42:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-18T02:29:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:42, 18 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-18T02:42:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-18T02:29:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-18T02:42:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-18T02:29:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-18T10:20:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-18T02:42:00.000Z"></span>Google search on <i>"norman stronge" murdered</i> generates 299 hits. <i>"norman stronge" assassinated</i> generates 170 hits. "targetted" is weasel wording. - <a href="/wiki/User:Kittybrewster" title="User:Kittybrewster">Kittybrewster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-18T10:20:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-18T02:42:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:20, 18 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-18T10:20:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-18T02:42:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-18T10:20:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-18T02:42:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-19T00:01:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-18T10:20:00.000Z"></span>That's irrelevant. We don't go by "google polls". It depends on what sources can be found. <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-02-19T00:01:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-18T10:20:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-19T00:01:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-18T10:20:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-19T00:01:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-18T10:20:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Weggie-2007-02-18T14:42:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-18T10:20:00.000Z"></span>TIME magazine calls the incident Murder <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,920975,00.html">Time Magazine</a> <small>—The preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Sign_your_posts_on_talk_pages" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages">unsigned</a> comment was added by <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Weggie&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Weggie (page does not exist)">Weggie</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Weggie" title="User talk:Weggie">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Weggie" title="Special:Contributions/Weggie">contribs</a>) 14:42, 18 February 2007 (UTC).</small> <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Weggie&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Weggie (page does not exist)">Weggie</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Weggie-2007-02-18T14:42:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-18T10:20:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:43, 18 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Weggie-2007-02-18T14:42:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-18T10:20:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Weggie-2007-02-18T14:42:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-18T10:20:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-19T00:01:00.000Z-Weggie-2007-02-18T14:42:00.000Z"></span>That's a reliable source so "murdered" can be used with that as the ref. in the lead section or main text, except I've made the point above that where the IRA point of view is represented then it should state what they call it, and words can't be put into their mouths. <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-02-19T00:01:00.000Z-Weggie-2007-02-18T14:42:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-19T00:01:00.000Z-Weggie-2007-02-18T14:42:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-19T00:01:00.000Z-Weggie-2007-02-18T14:42:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-24T23:17:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-19T00:01:00.000Z"></span>Using the term murder is HIGHLY POV and is used as an attempt to criminalise the republican movement, I am sure you could get other quoted from reliable sources to say they were terrorists that carried out the attack but that is also POV. If we are going put these terms into articles then I will be adding it to other British Army murders who were active in the British Occupied Six Counties of Ireland.--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-02-24T23:17:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-19T00:01:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:17, 24 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-24T23:17:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-19T00:01:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-24T23:17:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-19T00:01:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:09:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-24T23:17:00.000Z"></span>We go by verifiable reliable sources, and the term "murder" has been substantiated. It is not up to us to judge whether it is the POV of the source, as long as it meets the criteria. If there are reliable sources that say "terrorists" then we say terrorists and reference it properly. If you have a verifiable reliable source that says they were "brave freedom fighters" then we put in both descriptions, per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">WP:NPOV</a>. Do you have such a verifiable source? NB please bear in mind discussions elsewhere as to what can be considered a suitable source. I don't think the "republican movement" as a whole has been implicated in this or mentioned, so that is an inaccurate statement. Re. other articles - again, find sources. <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:09:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-24T23:17:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:09, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:09:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-24T23:17:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:09:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-24T23:17:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T00:37:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-17T21:27:00.000Z"></span>An attempt to "criminalise" the murder of an innocent 86 year old man - what else could it be? British occupied 6 counties? - sorry but everything you say is riddled with PoV! (unsigned comment by Couter-revolutionary)</li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>....(Unsubstantiated slur removed by <a href="/wiki/User:Kittybrewster" title="User:Kittybrewster">Kittybrewster</a> 00:37, 25 February 2007 (UTC)).....--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T00:37:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-17T21:27:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:45, 24 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T00:37:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-17T21:27:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T00:37:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-17T21:27:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:41:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T00:37:00.000Z"></span>Concur. Talk page is not the place for personal opinion or unsubstantiated speculation per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:TPG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:TPG">WP:TPG</a>, particularly when it is provocative and offensive to other editors. Please note this cuts both ways. <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:41:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T00:37:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:41, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:41:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T00:37:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:41:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T00:37:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T00:11:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T00:37:00.000Z"></span>REMOVE THIS COMMENT NOW, PLEASE</b>.--<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Couter-revolutionary&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Couter-revolutionary (page does not exist)">Couter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T00:11:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T00:37:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:11, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T00:11:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T00:37:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T00:11:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T00:37:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:18:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T00:11:00.000Z"></span>I was quoted in tw orepublican publications that week.--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:18:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T00:11:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:18:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T00:11:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:18:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T00:11:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:24:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:18:00.000Z"></span>As you know full well those are not sufficient as reliable sources for contentious material. <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:24:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:24, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:24:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:18:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:24:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:18:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:26:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:24:00.000Z"></span>I havent got the publications in the house anymore otherwise I would put the detail in the article. However, I know someone who does and will get them.--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:26:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:24:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:26, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:26:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:24:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:26:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:24:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:09:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T00:37:00.000Z"></span>Do you have a reliable source (in wikipedia definition of the same) for this? If not, don't mention it. <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:09:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T00:37:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:09, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:09:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T00:37:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:09:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T00:37:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-24T23:41:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T00:37:00.000Z"></span>I think it should be "killed" rather than "murdered". It is more plainly descriptive and stark, and fits better with the role of a neutral encyclopaedia. I do not think it could be an attempt to "sanitise" or diminish what was done to Sir Norman Stronge as the article explains that in detail; nor could it be an attempt to hide the repulsion many felt, since Austin Currie's statement expresses that. It is not the job of the article to try to guide the emotions of its readers. I also note that "Lost Lives" does not use the term "murder" in its text, only in quotations and in a strictly legal sense. <a href="/wiki/User:Sam_Blacketer" title="User:Sam Blacketer">Sam Blacketer</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-24T23:41:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T00:37:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:41, 24 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-24T23:41:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T00:37:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-24T23:41:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T00:37:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:09:00.000Z-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-24T23:41:00.000Z"></span>We are neutral in the way that we use what sources say. We don't then adjust what they are saying to make it neutral. We use it as they do. <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:09:00.000Z-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-24T23:41:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:09, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:09:00.000Z-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-24T23:41:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:09:00.000Z-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-24T23:41:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-24T23:44:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T00:37:00.000Z"></span>I don't have many issues with it being killing or murder, both are infinitely more descriptive than calling it a death.--<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Couter-revolutionary&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Couter-revolutionary (page does not exist)">Couter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-24T23:44:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T00:37:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:44, 24 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-24T23:44:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T00:37:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-24T23:44:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T00:37:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-24T23:46:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-24T23:44:00.000Z"></span>It's pretty standard practice on wiki actually.--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-02-24T23:46:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-24T23:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:46, 24 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-24T23:46:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-24T23:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-24T23:46:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-24T23:44:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-24T23:50:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-24T23:46:00.000Z"></span>For example?--<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Couter-revolutionary&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Couter-revolutionary (page does not exist)">Couter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-24T23:50:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-24T23:46:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:50, 24 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-24T23:50:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-24T23:46:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-24T23:50:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-24T23:46:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:25:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-24T23:50:00.000Z"></span>It's standard practice to follow reliable sources. <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:25:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-24T23:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:25, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:25:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-24T23:50:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:25:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-24T23:50:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T13:46:00.000Z-Murdered_or_killed_-_in_lead_section"></span>The use of the term murdered instead of Killed is pure POV.--<a href="/wiki/User:Padraig3uk" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Padraig3uk">padraig3uk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T13:46:00.000Z-Murdered_or_killed_-_in_lead_section" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:46, 4 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T13:46:00.000Z-Murdered_or_killed_-_in_lead_section"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T13:46:00.000Z-Murdered_or_killed_-_in_lead_section"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-04T13:50:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T13:46:00.000Z"></span>It's standard practice to follow reliable sources. - <a href="/wiki/User:Kittybrewster" title="User:Kittybrewster">Kittybrewster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-04T13:50:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T13:46:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:50, 4 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-04T13:50:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T13:46:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-04T13:50:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T13:46:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T13:51:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-04T13:50:00.000Z"></span>Yes and reliable sources and more neutral ones state that they bot hwere <b>killed.</b> --<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T13:51:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-04T13:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:51, 4 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T13:51:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-04T13:50:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T13:51:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-04T13:50:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T13:54:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T13:51:00.000Z"></span>What "reliable sources" say this? I haven't seen any? Even American papers (totally external and, therefore, you can't accuse them of being PoV, say he was <b>murdered</b>. --<a href="/wiki/User:Counter-revolutionary" title="User:Counter-revolutionary">Counter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T13:54:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T13:51:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:54, 4 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T13:54:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T13:51:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T13:54:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T13:51:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T13:56:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T13:54:00.000Z"></span>CAIN states that they were killed.--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T13:56:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T13:54:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:56, 4 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T13:56:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T13:54:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T13:56:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T13:54:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-04T14:05:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T13:56:00.000Z"></span>CAIN states everybody who has been murdered was killed. Time is a more mainstream source but other are also quoted. Thank you for discussing rather than reverting again. - <a href="/wiki/User:Kittybrewster" title="User:Kittybrewster">Kittybrewster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-04T14:05:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T13:56:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:05, 4 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-04T14:05:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T13:56:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-04T14:05:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T13:56:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:09:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T13:46:00.000Z"></span>Additonally, CAIN is probably one of the more neutral sources of information on NI and they state they were killed--Vintagekits 22:02, 25 February 2007 (UTC) <dl><dd>I imagine an American magazine, as I pointed out above, is more neutral. It says a lot about CAIN when he doesn't use Sir Norman's title.--Counter-revolutionary 14:08, 4 March 2007 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li>It would seem that it depends on who the victim is on wether they are killed or murdered, if they are Irish shot by the British they are killed, but if there British shot by the Irish they are murdered.--<a href="/wiki/User:Padraig3uk" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Padraig3uk">padraig3uk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:09:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T13:46:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:09:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T13:46:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:09:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T13:46:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T14:11:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T13:46:00.000Z"></span>Where would it seem like this is the case??--<a href="/wiki/User:Counter-revolutionary" title="User:Counter-revolutionary">Counter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T14:11:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T13:46:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:11, 4 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T14:11:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T13:46:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T14:11:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T13:46:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:16:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T14:11:00.000Z"></span>In the Bloody Sunday article it was argued that the term murdered shouldn't be used, and killed be used instead - which I agree with - yet in this article the opposite is the case, if the term murdered is ok here them surely its equaly ok in the other.--<a href="/wiki/User:Padraig3uk" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Padraig3uk">padraig3uk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:16:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T14:11:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:16, 4 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:16:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T14:11:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:16:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T14:11:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T14:18:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:16:00.000Z"></span>There is a difference between a terrorist organisation and the legitimate army of a country, who, even under the ECHR are allowed to use force occasioning death to quell a riot.--<a href="/wiki/User:Counter-revolutionary" title="User:Counter-revolutionary">Counter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T14:18:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:16:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:18, 4 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T14:18:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:16:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T14:18:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:16:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T14:39:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T14:18:00.000Z"></span>True colours beinging to show--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T14:39:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T14:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:39, 4 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T14:39:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T14:18:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T14:39:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T14:18:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:33:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T14:39:00.000Z"></span>The intentional shooting and killing of 14 people is not justifable even by a legitimate army during what was a minor civilian disturbance, there is also a matter of who is a terrorist or not, many people in Northern Ireland would regard the British Army as terrorists, either way it is not the role of Wikipedia to make that judgement and a NPOV should be maintained in all articles.--<a href="/wiki/User:Padraig3uk" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Padraig3uk">padraig3uk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:33:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T14:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:33:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T14:39:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:33:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T14:39:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T14:35:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:33:00.000Z"></span>Many people in Ireland may well do. The incident occurred in Northern Ireland, a region of the United Kingdom, the army for which is the British Army. Wikipedia should stick to facts; this is one of them. <small>—The preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Sign_your_posts_on_talk_pages" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages">unsigned</a> comment was added by <a href="/wiki/User:Counter-revolutionary" title="User:Counter-revolutionary">Counter-revolutionary</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Counter-revolutionary" title="User talk:Counter-revolutionary">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Counter-revolutionary" title="Special:Contributions/Counter-revolutionary">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T14:35:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:35, 4 March 2007 (UTC)</a>.<span data-mw-comment-end="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T14:35:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:33:00.000Z"></span></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T14:35:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:33:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:44:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:33:00.000Z"></span>I am well aware of where it is I was born there, Britain being in occupation of the North dosen't justify what they did there, that still dosen't alter the fact that the same rules are not being applied to articles on Ireland equaly.--<a href="/wiki/User:Padraig3uk" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Padraig3uk">padraig3uk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:44:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:44, 4 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:44:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:33:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:44:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:33:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-04T14:51:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:44:00.000Z"></span>This is not the page to discuss whether "Britain is in occupation of Northern Ireland". We report reliable surces without amending them. - <a href="/wiki/User:Kittybrewster" title="User:Kittybrewster">Kittybrewster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-04T14:51:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:51, 4 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-04T14:51:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-04T14:51:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-04T14:44:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:24:00.000Z-Murdered_or_killed_-_in_lead_section"></span>Could editors on this page, please study <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:TPG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:TPG">WP:TPG</a>. The above conversation is largely a blatant violation of it. The talk page is not a place for opinions or unsubstantiated argument. That is not how to write articles. Please provide sources for statements, as in <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ATT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ATT">WP:ATT</a> to be used per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">WP:NPOV</a>. This is elementary stuff. Also we are not dealing with Bloody Sunday. Argue that on the talk page for that article. <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:24:00.000Z-Murdered_or_killed_-_in_lead_section" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:24:00.000Z-Murdered_or_killed_-_in_lead_section"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:24:00.000Z-Murdered_or_killed_-_in_lead_section"></span> </p> <dl><dd><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50717FA3E5F0C718EDDA80894D9484D81&n=Top%2fNews%2fWorld%2fCountries%20and%20Territories%2fIreland"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-05T01:59:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:24:00.000Z"></span>New York Times</a> say kill not murder. <span style="font-family:Verdana;"><a href="/wiki/User:One_Night_In_Hackney" title="User:One Night In Hackney"><span style="color:#009">One Night In Hackney</span></a><sub><i><a href="/wiki/User_talk:One_Night_In_Hackney" title="User talk:One Night In Hackney">303</a></i></sub></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-05T01:59:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:24:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-05T01:59:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:24:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-05T01:59:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:24:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Padraig-2007-08-06T23:22:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:24:00.000Z"></span>Can editors read <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28policy%29&oldid=127533734#NPOV_-_Murder_vs_killing">This</a> before altering the lead in this article.--<a href="/wiki/User:Padraig" title="User:Padraig">padraig</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Padraig-2007-08-06T23:22:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:24:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:22, 6 August 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Padraig-2007-08-06T23:22:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:24:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Padraig-2007-08-06T23:22:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:24:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="New_section" data-mw-thread-id="h-New_section-2007-02-19T11:48:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-New_section-2007-02-19T11:48:00.000Z"></span>New section<span data-mw-comment-end="h-New_section-2007-02-19T11:48:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Norman_Stronge&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: New section"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Weggie-2007-02-19T11:48:00.000Z-New_section"></span>I think the info in the opening paragraph about Stronge's political career should be appreviated and most of this should be moved in to a new section in the body of the article - any ojections to this from anyone? I can only see wp:mos type objections being credible here <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Weggie&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Weggie (page does not exist)">Weggie</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Weggie-2007-02-19T11:48:00.000Z-New_section" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:48, 19 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Weggie-2007-02-19T11:48:00.000Z-New_section"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Weggie-2007-02-19T11:48:00.000Z-New_section"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Weggie-2007-03-02T12:59:00.000Z-Weggie-2007-02-19T11:48:00.000Z"></span>Hopefully the information should be easier to read - felt there was too much in the intro that should have been detailed in the main body of the article <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Weggie&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Weggie (page does not exist)">Weggie</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Weggie-2007-03-02T12:59:00.000Z-Weggie-2007-02-19T11:48:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:59, 2 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Weggie-2007-03-02T12:59:00.000Z-Weggie-2007-02-19T11:48:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Weggie-2007-03-02T12:59:00.000Z-Weggie-2007-02-19T11:48:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Deaths_with_which_he_had_no_connection" data-mw-thread-id="h-Deaths_with_which_he_had_no_connection-2007-02-24T23:59:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Deaths_with_which_he_had_no_connection-2007-02-24T23:59:00.000Z"></span>Deaths with which he had no connection<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Deaths_with_which_he_had_no_connection-2007-02-24T23:59:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Norman_Stronge&action=edit&section=7" title="Edit section: Deaths with which he had no connection"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-24T23:59:00.000Z-Deaths_with_which_he_had_no_connection"></span>This article seemed to imply, incorrectly, that Sir Norman may have had a role in certain killings. It is obvious to those involved (yes not necessarily to all and sundry) that Sir Norman was not mixed up in anything like that. This is what I am attempting to stress, yet user:Vintagekits wishes me to provided a source for this. Suggestions?--<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Couter-revolutionary&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Couter-revolutionary (page does not exist)">Couter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-24T23:59:00.000Z-Deaths_with_which_he_had_no_connection" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:59, 24 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-24T23:59:00.000Z-Deaths_with_which_he_had_no_connection"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-24T23:59:00.000Z-Deaths_with_which_he_had_no_connection"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:01:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-24T23:59:00.000Z"></span>All I am asking is that if you want to claim something in an article - just back the claim up with proof.--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:01:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-24T23:59:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:01, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:01:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-24T23:59:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:01:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-24T23:59:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T00:03:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:01:00.000Z"></span>I don't know if I can find any. All I am trying to do is protect the reputation of a good man, now gone, in the face of certain implicit allegations.--<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Couter-revolutionary&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Couter-revolutionary (page does not exist)">Couter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T00:03:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:01:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:03, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T00:03:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:01:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T00:03:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:01:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:06:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T00:03:00.000Z"></span>That is very honourable. However, this is wiki, if you want to make a claim you need proof.--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:06:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T00:03:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:06, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:06:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T00:03:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:06:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T00:03:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T00:07:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:06:00.000Z"></span>I think it's so outlandish to suggest he was involved that there would be no source suggesting he wasn't.--<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Couter-revolutionary&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Couter-revolutionary (page does not exist)">Couter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T00:07:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:06:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:07, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T00:07:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:06:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T00:07:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:06:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-25T00:10:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T00:07:00.000Z"></span>If a claim is to be included in an article, the burden of proof is on those who want it in to establish it, not on those who want it out to find a source refuting them. <a href="/wiki/User:Sam_Blacketer" title="User:Sam Blacketer">Sam Blacketer</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-25T00:10:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T00:07:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:10, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-25T00:10:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T00:07:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-25T00:10:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T00:07:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-25T00:18:00.000Z-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-25T00:10:00.000Z"></span>Sorry, appears I broke the first rule of commentary and didn't read the questioned material from the article. It merely states that "P. O'Neill" from the IRA press department had claimed the killing of Sir Norman Stronge as a reprisal for killings by loyalist paramilitaries. This was indeed the statement made at the time. I can't find, though, that they claimed a direct connection, merely that Sir Norman Stronge was a symbol of unionism and therefore a legitimate target. Does anyone have the actual statement? <a href="/wiki/User:Sam_Blacketer" title="User:Sam Blacketer">Sam Blacketer</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-25T00:18:00.000Z-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-25T00:10:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-25T00:18:00.000Z-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-25T00:10:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-25T00:18:00.000Z-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-25T00:10:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:20:00.000Z-Deaths_with_which_he_had_no_connection"></span>(unindent)(edit conflict) This is quite correct per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:V" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:V">wikipedia policy</a> and the statement "Sir Norman had no connection with those killings" must be removed (this is not to imply that he did have any connection, I must point out). The article does not state he was involved in killings anyway, so there is no need to refute it. The IRA statement followed by Austin Currie's statement provide contrasting attitudes which give the reader sufficient information to make their own judgement. <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:20:00.000Z-Deaths_with_which_he_had_no_connection" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:20, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:20:00.000Z-Deaths_with_which_he_had_no_connection"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:20:00.000Z-Deaths_with_which_he_had_no_connection"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Assassination" data-mw-thread-id="h-Assassination-2007-02-25T00:27:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Assassination-2007-02-25T00:27:00.000Z"></span>Assassination<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Assassination-2007-02-25T00:27:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Norman_Stronge&action=edit&section=8" title="Edit section: Assassination"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:27:00.000Z-Assassination"></span>This term has been allowed only in the IRA quote to represent accurately their statement on this event. It should not be used elsewhere in the text, unless there is a verifiable reliable source that uses this term, and we've already debated elsewhere what constitutes such a source. <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:27:00.000Z-Assassination" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:27, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:27:00.000Z-Assassination"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:27:00.000Z-Assassination"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:35:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:27:00.000Z"></span>Reliable sources can also state that those in the IRA are terrorists. Terrorist, murder and assassination are all purely POV.--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:35:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:27:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:35, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:35:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:27:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:35:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T00:27:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T05:54:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:35:00.000Z"></span>But if it's the POV of a verifiable reliable source then it is what we use. That is the whole basis of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:VERIFY" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:VERIFY">WP:VERIFY</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">WP:NPOV</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NOR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NOR">WP:NOR</a> which are non-negotiable policies. If you have other words to use, then find acceptable sources for them. Wikipedia is not about truth. It's about statements that can be verified according to its policies of what counts as verification. <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T05:54:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:35:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:54, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T05:54:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:35:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T05:54:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T00:35:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T10:20:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T05:54:00.000Z"></span>YOu can also find the term "terrorist crime" from <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a> should that be used? I also can find the term <a href="/wiki/County_Londonderry" title="County Londonderry">County Derry</a> from from <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a> should that be used?--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T10:20:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T05:54:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:20, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T10:20:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T05:54:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T10:20:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T05:54:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T10:35:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T10:20:00.000Z"></span>Yes. - <a href="/wiki/User:Kittybrewster" title="User:Kittybrewster">Kittybrewster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T10:35:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T10:20:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:35, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T10:35:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T10:20:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T10:35:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T10:20:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T11:01:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T10:35:00.000Z"></span>Right, start changing Londonderry to Derry and member (volunteer) to terrorists and we'll see what happens!?--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T11:01:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T10:35:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:01, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T11:01:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T10:35:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T11:01:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T10:35:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T11:17:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T11:01:00.000Z"></span>The former is called Londonderry so that would be daft As for the latter, my life is too short. You do it by all means. Just make sure you have a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a>. - <a href="/wiki/User:Kittybrewster" title="User:Kittybrewster">Kittybrewster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T11:17:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T11:01:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:17, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T11:17:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T11:01:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T11:17:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T11:01:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T11:24:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T11:17:00.000Z"></span>I can find it quoted as County Derry from loads of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a>, would you support its change so long as it comes from a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a>??--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T11:24:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T11:17:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:24, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T11:24:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T11:17:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T11:24:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T11:17:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T11:28:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T11:24:00.000Z"></span>No, I wouldn't. It sounds like an abbreviation of the proper name. Like plane for aeroplane or Herts for Hertfordshire. I don't like it. - <a href="/wiki/User:Kittybrewster" title="User:Kittybrewster">Kittybrewster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T11:28:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T11:24:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:28, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T11:28:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T11:24:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T11:28:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T11:24:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T11:43:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T11:28:00.000Z"></span>Actually, it was its original name [removed inflammatory provocative comment] and its name outside of Britain.--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T11:43:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T11:28:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:43, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T11:43:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T11:28:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T11:43:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T11:28:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ben_W_Bell-2007-02-25T16:25:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T11:43:00.000Z"></span>Actually it wasn't, there has never been a County Derry in the history of Ireland, prior to it being County Londonderry it was County Coleraine, don't know what original name you're talking about. Just because some sources call it County Derry doesn't make it it's name. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ben_W_Bell&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Ben W Bell (page does not exist)"><span style="color:Blue;"><b>Ben W Bell</b></span></a> <a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ben_W_Bell&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Ben W Bell (page does not exist)"><i><span style="color:Blue;">talk</span></i></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Ben_W_Bell-2007-02-25T16:25:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T11:43:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:25, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ben_W_Bell-2007-02-25T16:25:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T11:43:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ben_W_Bell-2007-02-25T16:25:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T11:43:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T14:45:00.000Z-Assassination"></span>Vk, stop violating <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:POINT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:POINT">WP:POINT</a>. We are not talking about Londonderry. We are not talking about the use of the word terrorist. We are talking about the word assassination to use in a specific place or places in this article. Wikipedia does not work by precedent and it is not consistent. Also per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:TPG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:TPG">WP:TPG</a> please stop misusing the talk page to express your personal opinions which are irrelevant to the article, which are not substantiated and which are plainly designed to annoy other users, as you know what their reaction will be to such statements. This is the second time in a short time that a needless provocative comment by you has had to be removed. If you carry on doing this, I will block you. I might point out earlier that other users were stopped from making deliberately inflammatory comments about the IRA. It cuts both ways. <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T14:45:00.000Z-Assassination" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:45, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T14:45:00.000Z-Assassination"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T14:45:00.000Z-Assassination"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T17:37:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T14:45:00.000Z"></span>I am not violating <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:POINT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:POINT">WP:POINT</a>, I am hghlight of instances in editing articles relating to Irish politics were details in details from <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a> are neutralised in order to stop edit wars and keep the language more neutral. And were do you get off threatening me with a block for expressing my "personal opinions which are irrelevant to the article" - I was NOT EXPRESSING MY PERSONAL OPINION I was repeating what was written in a republican publication and even if it was my personal opinion why should it be whitewashed - there are a lot of editorss giving their personal opinions in this discussion why is nothing said to them. I told you I would get the publication but you allowed my comment to be deleted - I will get the publication and then I will put it in the article. To make out that members of the IRA are murderers is as you say "deliberately inflammatory" - I was not trying to have the information whitewash just to use less loaded and more neutral terms.--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T17:37:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T14:45:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:37, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T17:37:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T14:45:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T17:37:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T14:45:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T22:02:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T14:45:00.000Z"></span>Additonally, CAIN is probably one of the more neutral sources of information on NI and they state they were <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/chron/1981.html">killed</a>--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T22:02:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T14:45:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:02, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T22:02:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T14:45:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T22:02:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-02-25T14:45:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T14:08:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T22:02:00.000Z"></span>I imagine an American magazine, as I pointed out above, is more neutral. It says a lot about CAIN when he doesn't use Sir Norman's title.--<a href="/wiki/User:Counter-revolutionary" title="User:Counter-revolutionary">Counter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T14:08:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T22:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:08, 4 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T14:08:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T22:02:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-04T14:08:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-02-25T22:02:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="PC" data-mw-thread-id="h-PC-2007-02-25T21:33:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-PC-2007-02-25T21:33:00.000Z"></span>PC<span data-mw-comment-end="h-PC-2007-02-25T21:33:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Norman_Stronge&action=edit&section=9" title="Edit section: PC"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T21:33:00.000Z-PC"></span>No question he was PC (NI), which is mentioned in the main text. But is it correctly shown in line 1 as Rt Hon or PC (NI) ? - <a href="/wiki/User:Kittybrewster" title="User:Kittybrewster">Kittybrewster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T21:33:00.000Z-PC" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:33, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T21:33:00.000Z-PC"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T21:33:00.000Z-PC"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:36:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T21:33:00.000Z"></span>I know that generally, for commoners, Rt. Hon. is used as opposed to PC, however, Wiki. doesn't allow this. I have sources for PC being used after his name also. --<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Couter-revolutionary&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Couter-revolutionary (page does not exist)">Couter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:36:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T21:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:36, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:36:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T21:33:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:36:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T21:33:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T21:41:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:36:00.000Z"></span>Doesn't allow it by what rule? - <a href="/wiki/User:Kittybrewster" title="User:Kittybrewster">Kittybrewster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T21:41:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:36:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:41, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T21:41:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:36:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T21:41:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:36:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(biographies)#Honorific_prefixes" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:43:00.000Z-PC"></span>Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(biographies)#Honorific_prefixes</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p>--<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Couter-revolutionary&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Couter-revolutionary (page does not exist)">Couter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:43:00.000Z-PC" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:43, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:43:00.000Z-PC"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:43:00.000Z-PC"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Proteus-2007-02-25T21:44:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:43:00.000Z"></span>Can't remember where it is, but it was forced on us a while back. <a href="/wiki/User:Proteus" title="User:Proteus">Proteus</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Proteus" title="User talk:Proteus">(Talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Proteus-2007-02-25T21:44:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:43:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:44, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Proteus-2007-02-25T21:44:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:43:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Proteus-2007-02-25T21:44:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:43:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Proteus-2007-02-25T21:44:00.000Z-PC"></span>Our style is to use neither for commoners — for some ridiculous reason we're not allowed to use "The Right Honourable", and it'd be misleading to put the post-nominal there when it's not supposed to be used, so we're stuck in a rather absurd limbo. Yet another example of anti-British bias making everything difficult. <a href="/wiki/User:Proteus" title="User:Proteus">Proteus</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Proteus" title="User talk:Proteus">(Talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Proteus-2007-02-25T21:44:00.000Z-PC" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:44, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Proteus-2007-02-25T21:44:00.000Z-PC"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Proteus-2007-02-25T21:44:00.000Z-PC"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:46:00.000Z-Proteus-2007-02-25T21:44:00.000Z"></span>Surely when I provide a Reliable Source the post-nominal PC can be used?--<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Couter-revolutionary&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Couter-revolutionary (page does not exist)">Couter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:46:00.000Z-Proteus-2007-02-25T21:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:46, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:46:00.000Z-Proteus-2007-02-25T21:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:46:00.000Z-Proteus-2007-02-25T21:44:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T21:53:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:46:00.000Z"></span>I think we should argue for Rt Hon failing which PC. - <a href="/wiki/User:Kittybrewster" title="User:Kittybrewster">Kittybrewster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T21:53:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:46:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:53, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T21:53:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:46:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T21:53:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:46:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:54:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T21:53:00.000Z"></span>A jolly good idea!--<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Couter-revolutionary&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Couter-revolutionary (page does not exist)">Couter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:54:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T21:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:54, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:54:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T21:53:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:54:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T21:53:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-25T22:21:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:54:00.000Z"></span>Good, where do I sign up? <a href="/wiki/User:Sam_Blacketer" title="User:Sam Blacketer">Sam Blacketer</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-25T22:21:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:54:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:21, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-25T22:21:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:54:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-25T22:21:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-02-25T21:54:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(biographies)#Honorific_prefixes_No.2" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (biographies)"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T22:50:00.000Z-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-25T22:21:00.000Z"></span>Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(biographies)#Honorific_prefixes_No.2</a> - <a href="/wiki/User:Kittybrewster" title="User:Kittybrewster">Kittybrewster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T22:50:00.000Z-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-25T22:21:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:50, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T22:50:00.000Z-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-25T22:21:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kittybrewster-2007-02-25T22:50:00.000Z-Sam_Blacketer-2007-02-25T22:21:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ibagli-2007-02-25T23:13:00.000Z-PC"></span>I think it would be wonderful if we could use "Right Honourable", but I don't think the anti-status people will allow it. --<a href="/wiki/User:Ibagli" title="User:Ibagli"><span style="font-variant:small-caps">Ibagli</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ibagli" title="User talk:Ibagli"><span style="font-variant:small-caps">Talk</span></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Ibagli-2007-02-25T23:13:00.000Z-PC" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:13, 25 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ibagli-2007-02-25T23:13:00.000Z-PC"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ibagli-2007-02-25T23:13:00.000Z-PC"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="NPOV_tag" data-mw-thread-id="h-NPOV_tag-2007-03-01T00:10:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-NPOV_tag-2007-03-01T00:10:00.000Z"></span>NPOV tag<span data-mw-comment-end="h-NPOV_tag-2007-03-01T00:10:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Norman_Stronge&action=edit&section=10" title="Edit section: NPOV tag"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T00:10:00.000Z-NPOV_tag"></span>Can this be removed or explained? - <a href="/wiki/User:Kittybrewster" title="User:Kittybrewster">Kittybrewster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T00:10:00.000Z-NPOV_tag" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:10, 1 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T00:10:00.000Z-NPOV_tag"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T00:10:00.000Z-NPOV_tag"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-01T01:31:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T00:10:00.000Z"></span>If there's no explanation within 24 hours (to allow for all time zones), I can't see any reason why it shouldn't be removed. It's not a guessing game to work out what the specific complaint is. <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-03-01T01:31:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T00:10:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:31, 1 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-01T01:31:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T00:10:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-01T01:31:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T00:10:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-01T02:27:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-01T01:31:00.000Z"></span>It would be a good idea also to leave a note on the talk page of the user who posted it, giving them the chance to explain. <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-03-01T02:27:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-01T01:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:27, 1 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-01T02:27:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-01T01:31:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-01T02:27:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-01T01:31:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-01T19:01:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-01T02:27:00.000Z"></span>Stating that this attack was murder is POV.--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-03-01T19:01:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-01T02:27:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:01, 1 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-01T19:01:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-01T02:27:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-01T19:01:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-01T02:27:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-03-01T19:11:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-01T19:01:00.000Z"></span>You are so very wrong it is almost funny, if it weren't so serious an error. If the blood-thirsty murderers were caught, and charged, what would they be charged with? An attack in which they accidentally fired a machine gun at an elderly man and his son because their finger slipped? I don't think so, they'd be charged with murder. Fact. Thus, in a legal sense, as well as in so many other ways, this "attack" was a MURDER. --<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Couter-revolutionary&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Couter-revolutionary (page does not exist)">Couter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-03-01T19:11:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-01T19:01:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:11, 1 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-03-01T19:11:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-01T19:01:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-03-01T19:11:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-01T19:01:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T20:38:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-03-01T19:11:00.000Z"></span>The term murder is sourced. So is there any other reasoning behind the NPOV tag? - <a href="/wiki/User:Kittybrewster" title="User:Kittybrewster">Kittybrewster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T20:38:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-03-01T19:11:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:38, 1 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T20:38:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-03-01T19:11:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T20:38:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-03-01T19:11:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-01T21:16:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T20:38:00.000Z"></span>Yes, it might be sourced but it is POV, there are also sources to say he was killed, which is NPOV. If there are also sources to say he was "wacked". "taken out" or "had a cap popped in his ass" should those be used!?!?--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-03-01T21:16:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T20:38:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:16, 1 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-01T21:16:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T20:38:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-01T21:16:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T20:38:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-02T00:02:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-01T21:16:00.000Z"></span>Not usually because it's not encyclopedic language, but maybe sometimes in quotes, if relevant. <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-03-02T00:02:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-01T21:16:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:02, 2 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-02T00:02:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-01T21:16:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-02T00:02:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-01T21:16:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T22:30:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-01T21:16:00.000Z"></span>We use the prime sources and do not adjust them to conform to the positions adopted by individual editors. Hypothetical questions are unhelpful. wacked is spelled wicked or whacked. - <a href="/wiki/User:Kittybrewster" title="User:Kittybrewster">Kittybrewster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T22:30:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-01T21:16:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:30, 1 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T22:30:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-01T21:16:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T22:30:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-01T21:16:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-02T00:02:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T22:30:00.000Z"></span>Please see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:TPG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:TPG">WP:TPG</a>. We don't bother with spelling and grammar mistakes on talk pages. <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-03-02T00:02:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T22:30:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:02, 2 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-02T00:02:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T22:30:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-02T00:02:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T22:30:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-02T00:10:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-02T00:02:00.000Z"></span>Seeking clarification as to meaning. - <a href="/wiki/User:Kittybrewster" title="User:Kittybrewster">Kittybrewster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-02T00:10:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-02T00:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-02T00:10:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-02T00:02:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-02T00:10:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-02T00:02:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-01T22:48:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T22:30:00.000Z"></span>If your arguement comes down to spellin mistiokes then yu are ob shakey groouind.--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-03-01T22:48:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T22:30:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:48, 1 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-01T22:48:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T22:30:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-01T22:48:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-01T22:30:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-02T00:02:00.000Z-NPOV_tag"></span>Here are some international sources for the use of the word "murder" to describe the death of Sir Norman Stronge. I think this indicates it is a widely held, I would say majority, view. Nevertheless, it may be best to state who has called it murder for the sake of objectivity, as with the use of the word "terrorist" in <a href="/wiki/Al_Quaida" class="mw-redirect" title="Al Quaida">Al Quaida</a>. </p> <ul><li>The New York Times, 30 January, 1981 <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:jiqonI9PIH0J:topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/ireland/index.html%3Fs%3Doldest%26+%22Norman+Stronge%22+murder&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=11&gl=uk">[1]</a></li> <li>Time (in partnership with CNN), 2 February, 1981 <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,920975,00.html">[2]</a></li> <li>Commons Hansard, Rev. Ian Paisley, 1992-06-10 <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:I74yuAnQG8MJ:www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199293/cmhansrd/1992-06-10/Debate-12.html+%22Norman+Stronge%22+murder&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=25&gl=uk">[3]</a></li> <li>The Spectator, 13 December, 1997 <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:UGpqr6neR5gJ:www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3724/is_199712/ai_n8763238+%22Norman+Stronge%22+murder&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=16&gl=uk">[4]</a></li> <li>Lords Hansard, Lord Cooke of Islandreagh, 22 March, 2000 <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:aeaJIvfde0wJ:www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld199900/ldhansrd/vo000322/text/00322-06.htm+%22Norman+Stronge%22+murder&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=28&gl=uk">[5]</a></li> <li>The News Letter (Belfast, Northern Ireland), January 19, 2001 <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-69286913.html">[6]</a></li> <li>The Daily Telegraph, 22 November, 2001 <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/11/09/db01.xml">[7]</a></li> <li>The Scotsman, 10 April, 2006 <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=546462006">[8]</a></li></ul> <p><a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-03-02T00:02:00.000Z-NPOV_tag" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:02, 2 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-02T00:02:00.000Z-NPOV_tag"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-02T00:02:00.000Z-NPOV_tag"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-03-02T13:05:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-02T00:02:00.000Z"></span>like I said, there are sources for both killed and murdered, however, murder is POV in this instance, provocative and a loaded term. Of all the sources listed CAIN is the most neutral and that says he was "killed" - also its funny how Irish people get "killed" by British but British people get "murdered" by Irish people. <small>—The preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment was added by <a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Vintagekits" title="User talk:Vintagekits">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Vintagekits" title="Special:Contributions/Vintagekits">contribs</a>).</small></dd></dl> <ul><li>How is CAIN the most neutral? Is it most neutral because it supports what you want to say?--<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Couter-revolutionary&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Couter-revolutionary (page does not exist)">Couter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-03-02T13:05:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-02T00:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:05, 2 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-03-02T13:05:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-02T00:02:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Couter-revolutionary-2007-03-02T13:05:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-02T00:02:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-02T13:09:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-03-02T13:05:00.000Z"></span>I think any who know anything about Northern Ireland would know that CAIN is the most neitral source cited.--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-03-02T13:09:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-03-02T13:05:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:09, 2 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-02T13:09:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-03-02T13:05:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-02T13:09:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-03-02T13:05:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-02T00:43:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-03-02T13:05:00.000Z"></span>Well, it may be POV, but if it is a POV advanced by major sources, which it is, then it is incumbent per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">WP:NPOV</a> for us to represent that POV, which can be attributed to them by all means, but not just ignored. That would be a violation of policy. <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-03-02T00:43:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-03-02T13:05:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:43, 2 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-02T00:43:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-03-02T13:05:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-02T00:43:00.000Z-Couter-revolutionary-2007-03-02T13:05:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="murdered_quotation_altered_by_Vintagekits" data-mw-thread-id="h-murdered_quotation_altered_by_Vintagekits-2007-03-04T17:33:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-murdered_quotation_altered_by_Vintagekits-2007-03-04T17:33:00.000Z"></span>murdered quotation altered by Vintagekits<span data-mw-comment-end="h-murdered_quotation_altered_by_Vintagekits-2007-03-04T17:33:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Norman_Stronge&action=edit&section=11" title="Edit section: murdered quotation altered by Vintagekits"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sir_Norman_Stronge%2C_8th_Baronet&diff=prev&oldid=112578832"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-04T17:33:00.000Z-murdered_quotation_altered_by_Vintagekits"></span>[9]</a> . No justification for changing this by amending the quotation. See <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ATT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ATT">WP:ATT</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a> and stop being disruptive. - <a href="/wiki/User:Kittybrewster" title="User:Kittybrewster">Kittybrewster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-04T17:33:00.000Z-murdered_quotation_altered_by_Vintagekits" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-04T17:33:00.000Z-murdered_quotation_altered_by_Vintagekits"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-04T17:33:00.000Z-murdered_quotation_altered_by_Vintagekits"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T17:36:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-04T17:33:00.000Z"></span>You are the one being disruptive, large quotes should not be used to provide infomation when it is POV, the pair were killed - murdered is POV--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T17:36:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-04T17:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:36, 4 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T17:36:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-04T17:33:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T17:36:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-04T17:33:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:21:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T17:36:00.000Z"></span>I agree the use of the large quote per se is unacceptable. However, you still haven't answered my point above, namely: <dl><dd><i>Well, it may be POV, but if it is a POV advanced by major sources, which it is, then it is incumbent per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">WP:NPOV</a> for us to represent that POV, which can be attributed to them by all means, but not just ignored. That would be a violation of policy.</i></dd></dl></dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:21:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T17:36:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:21, 5 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:21:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T17:36:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:21:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-04T17:36:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-05T01:25:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:21:00.000Z"></span>You would then be ignoring the sources that state he was killed in preference of the POV term of murdered.--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-03-05T01:25:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:21:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-05T01:25:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:21:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-05T01:25:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:21:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p>Vintage, out of curiousity - what difference does this make to you? </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Shannon" data-mw-thread-id="h-Shannon-2007-03-05T00:20:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Shannon-2007-03-05T00:20:00.000Z"></span>Shannon<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Shannon-2007-03-05T00:20:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Norman_Stronge&action=edit&section=12" title="Edit section: Shannon"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T00:20:00.000Z-Shannon"></span>The sources clearly say the warrant was for a charge of murder. We don't use euphemisms. Follow the source accurately please. Also the source doesn't say the charges were dropped; it says Shannon was acquited. Fidelity to the source is essential in articles. <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T00:20:00.000Z-Shannon" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:20, 5 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T00:20:00.000Z-Shannon"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T00:20:00.000Z-Shannon"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-05T00:31:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T00:20:00.000Z"></span>Sectarian RUC stated at his extradition hearing that a "book of evidence" had been prepared and that Shannon would be put on trial immediately. Over a year after his extradition no evidence was ever entered. Shannon was released without ever going to trial and to this date no evidence has ever been forwarded.--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-03-05T00:31:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T00:20:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-05T00:31:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T00:20:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-05T00:31:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T00:20:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:16:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-05T00:31:00.000Z"></span>Ref(s) please. <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:16:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-05T00:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:16:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-05T00:31:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:16:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-05T00:31:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:18:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:16:00.000Z"></span>That is, acceptable refs of course. <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:18:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:16:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:18:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:16:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:18:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:16:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-05T01:21:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:18:00.000Z"></span>Well the way things are going nothing except the Burning Bush or a Britsh Daily seems to be acceptable anymore. Have a look at <a href="/wiki/Magill" title="Magill">Magill</a> October 1985 for evidence of the mighty "British justice system".--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-03-05T01:21:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:21, 5 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-05T01:21:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:18:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-05T01:21:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T01:18:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T03:04:00.000Z-Shannon"></span>That was quite funny. It's not up to me to scour for sources: it's up to you to provide them, if you have a point to make. Many sources, e.g. <i><a href="/wiki/The_New_York_Times" title="The New York Times">The New York Times</a></i>, are perfectly acceptable, and doubtless all or some of these (I'm not greatly familiar with them): </p> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Evening_Echo" class="mw-redirect" title="Evening Echo">Evening Echo</a> | <a href="/wiki/Evening_Herald" class="mw-redirect" title="Evening Herald">Evening Herald</a> | <a href="/wiki/Foinse" title="Foinse">Foinse</a> | <a href="/wiki/Herald_AM" title="Herald AM">Herald AM</a> | <a href="/wiki/Ireland_on_Sunday" title="Ireland on Sunday">Ireland on Sunday</a> | <a href="/wiki/Irish_Examiner" title="Irish Examiner">Irish Examiner</a> | <a href="/wiki/Irish_Independent" title="Irish Independent">Irish Independent</a> | <a href="/wiki/L%C3%A1" title="Lá">Lá</a> | <a href="/wiki/Limerick_Leader" title="Limerick Leader">Limerick Leader</a> | <a href="/w/index.php?title=Metro_(Dublin_newspaper)&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Metro (Dublin newspaper) (page does not exist)">Metro</a> | <a href="/wiki/Sunday_Independent" class="mw-disambig" title="Sunday Independent">Sunday Independent</a> | <a href="/wiki/Sunday_Tribune" title="Sunday Tribune">Sunday Tribune</a> | <a href="/wiki/Sunday_World" title="Sunday World">Sunday World</a> | <a href="/wiki/The_Belfast_Telegraph" class="mw-redirect" title="The Belfast Telegraph">The Belfast Telegraph</a> | <a href="/wiki/The_Irish_News" title="The Irish News">The Irish News</a> | <a href="/wiki/The_Irish_Times" title="The Irish Times">The Irish Times</a> | <a href="/wiki/The_News_Letter" class="mw-redirect" title="The News Letter">The News Letter</a> | <a href="/wiki/The_Sunday_Business_Post" class="mw-redirect" title="The Sunday Business Post">The Sunday Business Post</a><br/></dd></dl> <p>You (and no one else either from what I can see) never cite the Irish press, which I find surprising. Why not? Do they say the same as the British press and the Burning Bush perchance? <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T03:04:00.000Z-Shannon" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:04, 5 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T03:04:00.000Z-Shannon"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T03:04:00.000Z-Shannon"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Re-order_and_re-write_rationale" data-mw-thread-id="h-Re-order_and_re-write_rationale-2007-03-05T03:04:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Re-order_and_re-write_rationale-2007-03-05T03:04:00.000Z"></span>Re-order and re-write rationale<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Re-order_and_re-write_rationale-2007-03-05T03:04:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Norman_Stronge&action=edit&section=13" title="Edit section: Re-order and re-write rationale"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T03:04:00.000Z-Re-order_and_re-write_rationale"></span>There were too many headings and small sections which prevented any flow. I have created bigger sections and less headings. </p><p>I have considered the use of the words "killing" and "murder" attempting only to apply wikipedia policies of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ATT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ATT">WP:ATT</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">WP:NPOV</a> and their derivative guidelines, including <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Words to avoid">Wikipedia: words to avoid</a>: </p> <dl><dd><i>The words terrorism and terrorist may be cited where there is a verifiable and cited indication of who is calling a person or group terrorist</i></dd></dl> <p>The word "murder" falls into this category. As major sources use the term, it must be included. However, it must also be attributed to them. A straightforward solution is to describe the events in neutral terms, i.e. use the word "killing", which is after all what happened. I think in the circumstances of the death, the reader can safely be left to draw whatever conclusions they choose. I have put the labelling of the death as murder into a Reactions section, as it was a reaction to the event after it. It can then be compared with other reactions, and again the reader can make their own judgement. It is fundamental to wikipedia to present information in a neutral and impersonal manner, even though this may go against an editor's natural instincts, though of course these can be opposite in different editors. </p><p>All of this does create a disproportionately large section on the death, and I think the answer to this is to expand the previous section on his life and career. The marriage date is missing at the moment. </p><p>I have deleted the UDA lines. This is original research. There is no source that connects this to Sir Norman Stronge, only an editor's idea that it is connected. </p><p>Some of the details may need to be clarified, revised or more closely referenced, but please do not insert statements which may be contentious which are not supported by appropriate references. </p><p>Note also per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:LEAD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:LEAD">WP:LEAD</a> that the lead section is not an introduction. It is a summary of the article for those that want a quick overview without necessarily reading the whole text. I have augmented it with this in mind. Ideally the lead section should not be referenced, as it is only an abbreviated version of the main text, where the references should be. </p><p>If there are any disputes over the revision, please open talk below, giving each subject its own heading for clarity. Talk related to the article is best stated on this page, not on user talk pages, in order that all editors may have a chance to participate. </p><p><a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T03:04:00.000Z-Re-order_and_re-write_rationale" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:04, 5 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T03:04:00.000Z-Re-order_and_re-write_rationale"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T03:04:00.000Z-Re-order_and_re-write_rationale"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T03:13:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T03:04:00.000Z"></span>Well done, I quickly read through it and it seems fine to me, if the same could now be applied to <a href="/wiki/Sir_James_Stronge,_9th_Baronet" class="mw-redirect" title="Sir James Stronge, 9th Baronet">Sir_James_Stronge,_9th_Baronet</a> it would be good.--<a href="/wiki/User:Padraig3uk" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Padraig3uk">padraig3uk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T03:13:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T03:04:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T03:13:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T03:04:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T03:13:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T03:04:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T04:56:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T03:13:00.000Z"></span>Go for it! <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T04:56:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T03:13:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:56, 5 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T04:56:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T03:13:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T04:56:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T03:13:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="NYT" data-mw-thread-id="h-NYT-2007-03-05T03:14:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-NYT-2007-03-05T03:14:00.000Z"></span>NYT<span data-mw-comment-end="h-NYT-2007-03-05T03:14:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Norman_Stronge&action=edit&section=14" title="Edit section: NYT"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-05T03:14:00.000Z-NYT"></span>Can I just point out I think the NYT part should be removed? One <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50717FA3E5F0C718EDDA80894D9484D81&n=Top%2fNews%2fWorld%2fCountries%20and%20Territories%2fIreland">story on the link</a> does say murdered, but <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50717FA3E5F0C718EDDA80894D9484D81&n=Top%2fNews%2fWorld%2fCountries%20and%20Territories%2fIreland">another story</a> does not. <span style="font-family:Verdana;"><a href="/wiki/User:One_Night_In_Hackney" title="User:One Night In Hackney"><span style="color:#009">One Night In Hackney</span></a><sub><i><a href="/wiki/User_talk:One_Night_In_Hackney" title="User talk:One Night In Hackney">303</a></i></sub></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-05T03:14:00.000Z-NYT" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-05T03:14:00.000Z-NYT"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-05T03:14:00.000Z-NYT"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T04:56:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-05T03:14:00.000Z"></span>You seem to have given the same link twice. However, there is a reference that uses this unambiguously in the title and the beginning of the article: <dl><dd><i><b>MURDERS</b> BRING FEAR TO PROTESTANTS ON ULSTER BORDER</i></dd> <dd><i>By WILLIAM BORDERS, SPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES</i></dd> <dd><i>Last Sunday afternoon, when they buried Sir Norman Stronge, a prominent retired politician whom Irish Republican Army terrorists said they had killed, the British Cabinet Minister responsible for Northern Ireland pointedly stayed away from the service in the little gray stone church here. The minister, Humphrey Atkins, would normally have been one of the chief mourners of Sir Norman, whose <b>murder</b> at the age of 86 has deeply shocked this tidy village</i> [my bold]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>It is legitimate therefore to state "The killing was called murder by ... The New York Times", because it was. I can't see any justification for not communicating this fact. However, you are right that this could be confusing with the link given, so I have amended the ref to state the particular part of the page cited as well as the particular title referred to.</dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T04:56:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-05T03:14:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:56, 5 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T04:56:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-05T03:14:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T04:56:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-05T03:14:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-05T18:06:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T04:56:00.000Z"></span>Oops, I meant to link to the other story. The point I'm making is that although the NYT described the deaths as murder, the first story they printed on the subject (on January 22) used the word "kill", and it wasn't until the January 30 story the word "murder" was used. So while it is correct that they did indeed use the word "murder", their first reaction used the word "kill". The term "murder" was actually used by <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=travel&res=990DEEDC1139F932A35752C1A967948260">William Borders</a> who was a London based correspondent, so more likely to be affected by British reaction compared to the writer of the original story. <span style="font-family:Verdana;"><a href="/wiki/User:One_Night_In_Hackney" title="User:One Night In Hackney"><span style="color:#009">One Night In Hackney</span></a><sub><i><a href="/wiki/User_talk:One_Night_In_Hackney" title="User talk:One Night In Hackney">303</a></i></sub></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-05T18:06:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T04:56:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-05T18:06:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T04:56:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-05T18:06:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-05T04:56:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-06T01:01:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-05T18:06:00.000Z"></span>The text doesn't say it was their first reaction. It just says it was one of the sources that called it murder, which they did. There is no rule that only the first reaction counts, nor that if a paper prints something by a foreign correspondent it doesn't count. The arguments you are making are your own speculation, i.e. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NOR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NOR">original research</a>, which cannot be used. <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-03-06T01:01:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-05T18:06:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:01, 6 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-06T01:01:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-05T18:06:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-06T01:01:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-05T18:06:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-06T01:03:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-06T01:01:00.000Z"></span>That's not what I'm saying at all. My interpretation for the inclusion of the newspapers/magazines on the list is that in the view of those newspapers it was considered to be murder. I'm not really bothered either way, I'm just pointing out the ambiguity. Thanks. <span style="font-family:Verdana;"><a href="/wiki/User:One_Night_In_Hackney" title="User:One Night In Hackney"><span style="color:#009">One Night In Hackney</span></a><sub><i><a href="/wiki/User_talk:One_Night_In_Hackney" title="User talk:One Night In Hackney">303</a></i></sub></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-06T01:03:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-06T01:01:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-06T01:03:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-06T01:01:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-06T01:03:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-06T01:01:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-06T02:01:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-06T01:03:00.000Z"></span>In their view it obviously was murder. That's why they called it that in the headline. If a newspaper prints a story, then they are giving it their endorsement, unless you can find they printed a retraction later, saying they had got it wrong. <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-03-06T02:01:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-06T01:03:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:01, 6 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-06T02:01:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-06T01:03:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-06T02:01:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-06T01:03:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="InfoBox" data-mw-thread-id="h-InfoBox-2007-03-05T10:33:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-InfoBox-2007-03-05T10:33:00.000Z"></span>InfoBox<span data-mw-comment-end="h-InfoBox-2007-03-05T10:33:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Norman_Stronge&action=edit&section=15" title="Edit section: InfoBox"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T10:33:00.000Z-InfoBox"></span>In the infobox it says 'Speaker of the Northern Ireland Parliament' at the time of his death this didn't exist either the position or parliament, so the infobox is misleading as it gives one the impression that it is still currently in existance. Shouldn't this be changed to 'Former Speaker of the Former Northern Ireland Parliament.--<a href="/wiki/User:Padraig3uk" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Padraig3uk">padraig3uk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T10:33:00.000Z-InfoBox" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T10:33:00.000Z-InfoBox"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T10:33:00.000Z-InfoBox"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Weggie-2007-03-05T10:41:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T10:33:00.000Z"></span>It's true that the PNI is no longer in existence but it is arguably his most notable political position before his retirement and murder by Sein Fein/IRA.<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Weggie&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Weggie (page does not exist)">Weggie</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Weggie-2007-03-05T10:41:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T10:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Weggie-2007-03-05T10:41:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T10:33:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Weggie-2007-03-05T10:41:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T10:33:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-05T12:02:00.000Z-Weggie-2007-03-05T10:41:00.000Z"></span>Quite true. He did not, after all, hold the position of "Former Speaker"!--<a href="/wiki/User:Counter-revolutionary" title="User:Counter-revolutionary">Counter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-05T12:02:00.000Z-Weggie-2007-03-05T10:41:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-05T12:02:00.000Z-Weggie-2007-03-05T10:41:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-05T12:02:00.000Z-Weggie-2007-03-05T10:41:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T19:03:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-05T12:02:00.000Z"></span>I accept that he once held the position, nor am I saying it shouldn't be in the infobox, but it should be clearer that the position and Parliament no longer exists, from looking at the article at first glance it gives the impression that it currently exists.--<a href="/wiki/User:Padraig3uk" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Padraig3uk">padraig3uk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T19:03:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-05T12:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:03, 5 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T19:03:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-05T12:02:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T19:03:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-05T12:02:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-05T19:18:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T19:03:00.000Z"></span>It should state the term when he occupied <a href="/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Parliament" class="mw-redirect" title="Northern Ireland Parliament">the office</a> - as <a href="/wiki/Winston_Churchill" title="Winston Churchill">Winston Churchill</a>. - <a href="/wiki/User:Kittybrewster" title="User:Kittybrewster">Kittybrewster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-05T19:18:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T19:03:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-05T19:18:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T19:03:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-05T19:18:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T19:03:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-05T19:43:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-05T19:18:00.000Z"></span>Fixed that. - <a href="/wiki/User:Kittybrewster" title="User:Kittybrewster">Kittybrewster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-05T19:43:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-05T19:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:43, 5 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-05T19:43:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-05T19:18:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-05T19:43:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-05T19:18:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T19:45:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-05T19:43:00.000Z"></span>That is better, thanks.--<a href="/wiki/User:Padraig3uk" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Padraig3uk">padraig3uk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T19:45:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-05T19:43:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:45, 5 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T19:45:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-05T19:43:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T19:45:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-05T19:43:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T19:49:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T10:33:00.000Z"></span>Wouldn't the date be 1946-1969, if he held the position for 23yrs.--<a href="/wiki/User:Padraig3uk" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Padraig3uk">padraig3uk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T19:49:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T10:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T19:49:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T10:33:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T19:49:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-03-05T10:33:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="History_and_Biography_ratings" data-mw-thread-id="h-History_and_Biography_ratings-2007-03-09T04:05:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-History_and_Biography_ratings-2007-03-09T04:05:00.000Z"></span>History and Biography ratings<span data-mw-comment-end="h-History_and_Biography_ratings-2007-03-09T04:05:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Norman_Stronge&action=edit&section=16" title="Edit section: History and Biography ratings"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-09T04:05:00.000Z-History_and_Biography_ratings"></span>These appear to have been given by editors who have worked on the article. They are meant to be given by editors who have not! I've reverted to original state. <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-03-09T04:05:00.000Z-History_and_Biography_ratings" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:05, 9 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-09T04:05:00.000Z-History_and_Biography_ratings"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-09T04:05:00.000Z-History_and_Biography_ratings"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Sir_Norman_Stronge_photo" data-mw-thread-id="h-Sir_Norman_Stronge_photo-2007-03-09T14:33:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Sir_Norman_Stronge_photo-2007-03-09T14:33:00.000Z"></span>Sir Norman Stronge photo<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Sir_Norman_Stronge_photo-2007-03-09T14:33:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Norman_Stronge&action=edit&section=17" title="Edit section: Sir Norman Stronge photo"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-09T14:33:00.000Z-Sir_Norman_Stronge_photo"></span>Moved from a talk page and distilled.</b> </p> <dl><dd>Regarding a photograph of Sir Norman Stronge, I will be looking into the fair use of this image - where was it obtained from. I have another picture of him but I am not sure it could ever be used on here. … I have a photo of him from An P showing him in "all his regal garb" - however, it is copyrighted so cannot be used on here. --<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-03-09T14:33:00.000Z-Sir_Norman_Stronge_photo" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:33, 9 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-09T14:33:00.000Z-Sir_Norman_Stronge_photo"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-03-09T14:33:00.000Z-Sir_Norman_Stronge_photo"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-09T15:56:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-09T14:33:00.000Z"></span>Righto. If you have a picture of Sir Norman, "in regal garb", perhaps you could contact the copyright owner in an attempt to gain permission. I presume you know who owns the copyright as you know it's copyrighted. --<a href="/wiki/User:Counter-revolutionary" title="User:Counter-revolutionary">Counter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-09T15:56:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-09T14:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:56, 9 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-09T15:56:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-09T14:33:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-09T15:56:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-03-09T14:33:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-09T18:52:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-09T15:56:00.000Z"></span>The picture is likely to be permissible under <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fair_use" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Fair use">fair use</a>, especially if it shows him in his garb and he is deceased so a free version cannot be created. <span style="font-family:Verdana;"><a href="/wiki/User:One_Night_In_Hackney" title="User:One Night In Hackney"><span style="color:#009">One Night In Hackney</span></a><sub><i><a href="/wiki/User_talk:One_Night_In_Hackney" title="User talk:One Night In Hackney">303</a></i></sub></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-09T18:52:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-09T15:56:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:52, 9 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-09T18:52:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-09T15:56:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-09T18:52:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-09T15:56:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T11:57:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-09T18:52:00.000Z"></span>Vk might now like to answer ONiH's point about the photograph. What is the source? - <a href="/wiki/User:Kittybrewster" title="User:Kittybrewster">Kittybrewster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T11:57:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-09T18:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:57, 10 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T11:57:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-09T18:52:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T11:57:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-03-09T18:52:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><br/> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="1918-1938" data-mw-thread-id="h-1918-1938-2007-03-09T04:53:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-1918-1938-2007-03-09T04:53:00.000Z"></span>1918-1938<span data-mw-comment-end="h-1918-1938-2007-03-09T04:53:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Norman_Stronge&action=edit&section=18" title="Edit section: 1918-1938"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-09T04:53:00.000Z-1918-1938"></span>I've just noticed there's 20 years missing, during which he is wearing a long wig (see photo). <a href="/wiki/User:Tyrenius" title="User:Tyrenius">Tyrenius</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Tyrenius-2007-03-09T04:53:00.000Z-1918-1938" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:53, 9 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-09T04:53:00.000Z-1918-1938"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tyrenius-2007-03-09T04:53:00.000Z-1918-1938"></span> </p> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-09T12:41:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-09T04:53:00.000Z"></span>Can we move the photo to the infobox. --<a href="/wiki/User:Counter-revolutionary" title="User:Counter-revolutionary">Counter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-09T12:41:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-09T04:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-09T12:41:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-09T04:53:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-09T12:41:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2007-03-09T04:53:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Weggie-2007-03-09T12:44:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-09T12:41:00.000Z"></span>Where would his arms go? Did JP's wear wigs in Ulster at that time? <small>—The preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Sign_your_posts_on_talk_pages" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages">unsigned</a> comment was added by <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Weggie&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Weggie (page does not exist)">Weggie</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Weggie" title="User talk:Weggie">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Weggie" title="Special:Contributions/Weggie">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Weggie-2007-03-09T12:44:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-09T12:41:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:44, 9 March 2007 (UTC)</a>.</small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Weggie-2007-03-09T12:44:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-09T12:41:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Weggie-2007-03-09T12:44:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-09T12:41:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T11:48:00.000Z-Weggie-2007-03-09T12:44:00.000Z"></span>The arms would go where the photograph is now. --<a href="/wiki/User:Counter-revolutionary" title="User:Counter-revolutionary">Counter-revolutionary</a> 13:00, 9 March 2007 (UTC <dl><dd>Done that. - <a href="/wiki/User:Kittybrewster" title="User:Kittybrewster">Kittybrewster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T11:48:00.000Z-Weggie-2007-03-09T12:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:48, 10 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T11:48:00.000Z-Weggie-2007-03-09T12:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T11:48:00.000Z-Weggie-2007-03-09T12:44:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sam_Blacketer-2007-03-10T11:24:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T11:48:00.000Z"></span>Are you sure about that photograph? Sir Norman Stronge would have been about 30 in the mid 1920s but that photograph appears to show a much older man. <a href="/wiki/User:Sam_Blacketer" title="User:Sam Blacketer">Sam Blacketer</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Sam_Blacketer-2007-03-10T11:24:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T11:48:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:24, 10 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sam_Blacketer-2007-03-10T11:24:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T11:48:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sam_Blacketer-2007-03-10T11:24:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T11:48:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T11:48:00.000Z-Sam_Blacketer-2007-03-10T11:24:00.000Z"></span>I think that sort of wig would have been worn by a Judge. The medal round his neck sems to be his Croix de Guerre. - <a href="/wiki/User:Kittybrewster" title="User:Kittybrewster">Kittybrewster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T11:48:00.000Z-Sam_Blacketer-2007-03-10T11:24:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:48, 10 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T11:48:00.000Z-Sam_Blacketer-2007-03-10T11:24:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T11:48:00.000Z-Sam_Blacketer-2007-03-10T11:24:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-10T11:50:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T11:48:00.000Z"></span>Yes, well it is the typical "big wig". JP's of course did perform the role of magistrate so I imagine this is what it is.--<a href="/wiki/User:Counter-revolutionary" title="User:Counter-revolutionary">Counter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-10T11:50:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T11:48:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:50, 10 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-10T11:50:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T11:48:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-10T11:50:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T11:48:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T12:30:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-10T11:50:00.000Z"></span>I disagree. I don't think a JP would have worn that wig. I suspect Sir Norman was a lawyer. - <a href="/wiki/User:Kittybrewster" title="User:Kittybrewster">Kittybrewster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T12:30:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-10T11:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:30, 10 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T12:30:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-10T11:50:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T12:30:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-10T11:50:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sam_Blacketer-2007-03-10T12:50:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T12:30:00.000Z"></span>I was thinking it could be the Speaker's wig. Speakers of the House of Commons have not worn one for the past 15 years but it used to be traditional. <a href="/wiki/User:Sam_Blacketer" title="User:Sam Blacketer">Sam Blacketer</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Sam_Blacketer-2007-03-10T12:50:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T12:30:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:50, 10 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sam_Blacketer-2007-03-10T12:50:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T12:30:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sam_Blacketer-2007-03-10T12:50:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T12:30:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T12:53:00.000Z-Sam_Blacketer-2007-03-10T12:50:00.000Z"></span>How stupid of me. You are surely quite right. - <a href="/wiki/User:Kittybrewster" title="User:Kittybrewster">Kittybrewster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T12:53:00.000Z-Sam_Blacketer-2007-03-10T12:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:53, 10 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T12:53:00.000Z-Sam_Blacketer-2007-03-10T12:50:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T12:53:00.000Z-Sam_Blacketer-2007-03-10T12:50:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-10T12:57:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T12:53:00.000Z"></span>Yes, or perhaps High Sheriff also? He was not a lawyer so far as I know. Speaker sounds correct, although he didn't take up that post until the late 40s.--<a href="/wiki/User:Counter-revolutionary" title="User:Counter-revolutionary">Counter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-10T12:57:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T12:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:57, 10 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-10T12:57:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T12:53:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-03-10T12:57:00.000Z-Kittybrewster-2007-03-10T12:53:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Pointless_citation?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Pointless_citation?-2007-03-16T09:39:00.000Z"><span id="Pointless_citation.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Pointless_citation?-2007-03-16T09:39:00.000Z"></span>Pointless citation?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Pointless_citation?-2007-03-16T09:39:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Norman_Stronge&action=edit&section=19" title="Edit section: Pointless citation?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Major_Bonkers-2007-03-16T09:39:00.000Z-Pointless_citation?"></span>Does this quotation actually add anything?<br/>'Tim Pat Coogan stated in The Green Book: I, "Sir Norman Stronge and his son were shot and their home burned because sectarian assassinations were claiming the lives of Catholics"'<br/>This looks to be merely Mr. Coogan's opinion.--<a href="/wiki/User:Major_Bonkers" title="User:Major Bonkers">Major Bonkers</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Major_Bonkers" title="User talk:Major Bonkers">(talk)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Major_Bonkers-2007-03-16T09:39:00.000Z-Pointless_citation?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:39, 16 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Major_Bonkers-2007-03-16T09:39:00.000Z-Pointless_citation?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Major_Bonkers-2007-03-16T09:39:00.000Z-Pointless_citation?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-16T23:48:00.000Z-Major_Bonkers-2007-03-16T09:39:00.000Z"></span>If true, it shows how futile and pointless the assassination was. <a href="/wiki/User:Kittybrewster" title="User:Kittybrewster">Kittybrewster </a><small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kittybrewster" title="User talk:Kittybrewster"> (talk)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-16T23:48:00.000Z-Major_Bonkers-2007-03-16T09:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:48, 16 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-16T23:48:00.000Z-Major_Bonkers-2007-03-16T09:39:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kittybrewster-2007-03-16T23:48:00.000Z-Major_Bonkers-2007-03-16T09:39:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Proposed_move" data-mw-thread-id="h-Proposed_move-2007-05-06T05:29:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Proposed_move-2007-05-06T05:29:00.000Z"></span>Proposed move<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Proposed_move-2007-05-06T05:29:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Norman_Stronge&action=edit&section=20" title="Edit section: Proposed move"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-06T05:29:00.000Z-Proposed_move"></span>This is no other <a href="/wiki/Norman_Stronge" title="Norman Stronge">Norman Stronge</a>, therefore per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NCNT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NCNT">WP:NCNT</a> it should not be at its present location. <span style="font-family:Verdana;"><a href="/wiki/User:One_Night_In_Hackney" title="User:One Night In Hackney"><span style="color:#009">One Night In Hackney</span></a><sub><i><a href="/wiki/User_talk:One_Night_In_Hackney" title="User talk:One Night In Hackney">303</a></i></sub></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-06T05:29:00.000Z-Proposed_move" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:29, 6 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-06T05:29:00.000Z-Proposed_move"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-06T05:29:00.000Z-Proposed_move"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Padraig3uk-2007-05-06T22:03:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-06T05:29:00.000Z"></span>I agree in accordance to WP policy it should to moved to <a href="/wiki/Norman_Stronge" title="Norman Stronge">Norman Stronge</a>.--<a href="/wiki/User:Padraig3uk" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Padraig3uk">padraig3uk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Padraig3uk-2007-05-06T22:03:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-06T05:29:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:03, 6 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Padraig3uk-2007-05-06T22:03:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-06T05:29:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Padraig3uk-2007-05-06T22:03:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-06T05:29:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-06T22:45:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-05-06T22:03:00.000Z"></span>I don't think there's any point moving it. It's fine where it is.--<a href="/wiki/User:Counter-revolutionary" title="User:Counter-revolutionary">Counter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-06T22:45:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-05-06T22:03:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:45, 6 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-06T22:45:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-05-06T22:03:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-06T22:45:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-05-06T22:03:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-05-06T22:52:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-06T22:45:00.000Z"></span>Ah! thats lovely - move! Infact it was just Norman Stronge until January when Kitty moved it to this (without discussion!)--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-05-06T22:52:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-06T22:45:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:52, 6 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-05-06T22:52:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-06T22:45:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-05-06T22:52:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-06T22:45:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-06T23:04:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-05-06T22:52:00.000Z"></span>I've moved it back to the correct place then. <span style="font-family:Verdana;"><a href="/wiki/User:One_Night_In_Hackney" title="User:One Night In Hackney"><span style="color:#009">One Night In Hackney</span></a><sub><i><a href="/wiki/User_talk:One_Night_In_Hackney" title="User talk:One Night In Hackney">303</a></i></sub></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-06T23:04:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-05-06T22:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:04, 6 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-06T23:04:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-05-06T22:52:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-06T23:04:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-05-06T22:52:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Astrotrain-2007-05-07T14:19:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-06T23:04:00.000Z"></span>I've moved it back- this is the correct title for a Baronet. <small>—The preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Sign_your_posts_on_talk_pages" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages">unsigned</a> comment was added by <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Astrotrain&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Astrotrain (page does not exist)">Astrotrain</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Astrotrain" title="User talk:Astrotrain">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Astrotrain" title="Special:Contributions/Astrotrain">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Astrotrain-2007-05-07T14:19:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-06T23:04:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:19, 7 May 2007 (UTC)</a>.<span data-mw-comment-end="c-Astrotrain-2007-05-07T14:19:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-06T23:04:00.000Z"></span></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Astrotrain-2007-05-07T14:19:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-06T23:04:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Padraig3uk-2007-05-07T14:30:00.000Z-Proposed_move"></span>Moved to Norman Stronge in accordance to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NCNT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NCNT">WP:NCNT</a>.--<a href="/wiki/User:Padraig3uk" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Padraig3uk">padraig3uk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Padraig3uk-2007-05-07T14:30:00.000Z-Proposed_move" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Padraig3uk-2007-05-07T14:30:00.000Z-Proposed_move"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Padraig3uk-2007-05-07T14:30:00.000Z-Proposed_move"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-BrownHairedGirl-2007-05-07T19:54:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-05-07T14:30:00.000Z"></span>From <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NCNT#Other_non-royal_names" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NCNT">WP:NCNT#Other_non-royal_names</a>#4:</dd> <dd><i>Baronets, as they hold hereditary titles, often for a large part of their lives, follow the same practice as hereditary peers and should have their title noted in the beginning of the article. The format is Sir John Smith, 17th Baronet. For the article title, this format should only be used when disambiguation is necessary; otherwise, the article should be located at John Smith. John Smith, 17th Baronet should never be used with the postfix and without the prefix.</i></dd> <dd>Please leave it at Norman Stronge. --<a href="/wiki/User:BrownHairedGirl" title="User:BrownHairedGirl">BrownHairedGirl</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:BrownHairedGirl" title="User talk:BrownHairedGirl">(talk)</a> • (<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl" title="Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl">contribs</a>)</small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-BrownHairedGirl-2007-05-07T19:54:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-05-07T14:30:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:54, 7 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-BrownHairedGirl-2007-05-07T19:54:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-05-07T14:30:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-BrownHairedGirl-2007-05-07T19:54:00.000Z-Padraig3uk-2007-05-07T14:30:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Proscribed_Organisation..." data-mw-thread-id="h-Proscribed_Organisation...-2007-05-07T19:44:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Proscribed_Organisation...-2007-05-07T19:44:00.000Z"></span>Proscribed Organisation...<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Proscribed_Organisation...-2007-05-07T19:44:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Norman_Stronge&action=edit&section=21" title="Edit section: Proscribed Organisation..."><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T19:44:00.000Z-Proscribed_Organisation..."></span>Re. this edit <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Norman_Stronge&diff=129025908&oldid=129025434">[10]</a>. It is factual to state that a) the IRA were (and are) proscribed in Northern Ireland, Great Britain, where this attack took place and, as a consequence the high velocity weapons and grenades used were illegal. Thus it gives an accurate, factual, representation to be included.--<a href="/wiki/User:Counter-revolutionary" title="User:Counter-revolutionary">Counter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T19:44:00.000Z-Proscribed_Organisation..." class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:44, 7 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T19:44:00.000Z-Proscribed_Organisation..."><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T19:44:00.000Z-Proscribed_Organisation..."></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2007-05-07T19:48:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T19:44:00.000Z"></span>its an unecessary and POV edit - why dont I just add every single country in the world in which they are not a proscribed organisation immediately after your edit!--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2007-05-07T19:48:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T19:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2007-05-07T19:48:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T19:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2007-05-07T19:48:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T19:44:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T19:49:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-05-07T19:48:00.000Z"></span>hmmm, let me think, because the attack took place in a country where they were proscribed! --<a href="/wiki/User:Counter-revolutionary" title="User:Counter-revolutionary">Counter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T19:49:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-05-07T19:48:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T19:49:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-05-07T19:48:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T19:49:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2007-05-07T19:48:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-07T22:32:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T19:49:00.000Z"></span>I think you'll find it was <a href="/wiki/Hungerford_massacre" title="Hungerford massacre">perfectly legal</a> to own high velocity weapons. <span style="font-family:Verdana;"><a href="/wiki/User:One_Night_In_Hackney" title="User:One Night In Hackney"><span style="color:#009">One Night In Hackney</span></a><sub><i><a href="/wiki/User_talk:One_Night_In_Hackney" title="User talk:One Night In Hackney">303</a></i></sub></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-07T22:32:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T19:49:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-07T22:32:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T19:49:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-07T22:32:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T19:49:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T22:40:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-07T22:32:00.000Z"></span>Don't be so pedantic. It's a proscribed (illegal) organisation, in the UK - which is where these killings took place. Their arms wouldn't have been legally held and their <a href="/wiki/Grenade" title="Grenade">grenades</a> would certainly not have been. --<a href="/wiki/User:Counter-revolutionary" title="User:Counter-revolutionary">Counter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T22:40:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-07T22:32:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T22:40:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-07T22:32:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T22:40:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-07T22:32:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-07T22:42:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T22:40:00.000Z"></span>Prove that the arms were illegally held, otherwise it's <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR">original research</a> and can't be used. <span style="font-family:Verdana;"><a href="/wiki/User:One_Night_In_Hackney" title="User:One Night In Hackney"><span style="color:#009">One Night In Hackney</span></a><sub><i><a href="/wiki/User_talk:One_Night_In_Hackney" title="User talk:One Night In Hackney">303</a></i></sub></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-07T22:42:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T22:40:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-07T22:42:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T22:40:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-07T22:42:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T22:40:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T23:04:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-07T22:42:00.000Z"></span>I can prove they're proscribed. One day, when I have too much time on my hands, I'll prove (i.e. source) the rest too. --<a href="/wiki/User:Counter-revolutionary" title="User:Counter-revolutionary">Counter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T23:04:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-07T22:42:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T23:04:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-07T22:42:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-07T23:04:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-05-07T22:42:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Consistency" data-mw-thread-id="h-Consistency-2007-05-31T20:52:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Consistency-2007-05-31T20:52:00.000Z"></span>Consistency<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Consistency-2007-05-31T20:52:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Norman_Stronge&action=edit&section=22" title="Edit section: Consistency"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Will_Beback-2007-05-31T20:52:00.000Z-Consistency"></span>Much of this story is re-told in <a href="/wiki/Tynan_Abbey" title="Tynan Abbey">Tynan Abbey</a>, but with a different tone. We should try to make the descriptions of the events in various articles more consistent. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Will_Beback" title="Special:Contributions/Will Beback"> ·:·</a><a href="/wiki/User:Will_Beback" title="User:Will Beback">Will Beback</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Will_Beback" title="User talk:Will Beback">·:·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Will_Beback-2007-05-31T20:52:00.000Z-Consistency" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Will_Beback-2007-05-31T20:52:00.000Z-Consistency"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Will_Beback-2007-05-31T20:52:00.000Z-Consistency"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-31T21:03:00.000Z-Will_Beback-2007-05-31T20:52:00.000Z"></span>They come from different angles. One's about a house, the other a man. --<a href="/wiki/User:Counter-revolutionary" title="User:Counter-revolutionary">Counter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-31T21:03:00.000Z-Will_Beback-2007-05-31T20:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:03, 31 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-31T21:03:00.000Z-Will_Beback-2007-05-31T20:52:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-05-31T21:03:00.000Z-Will_Beback-2007-05-31T20:52:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Unreliable_source" data-mw-thread-id="h-Unreliable_source-2007-08-27T22:18:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Unreliable_source-2007-08-27T22:18:00.000Z"></span>Unreliable source<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Unreliable_source-2007-08-27T22:18:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Norman_Stronge&action=edit&section=23" title="Edit section: Unreliable source"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.iraatrocities.fsnet.co.uk/stronge.htm"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-08-27T22:18:00.000Z-Unreliable_source"></span>This</a> does not meet <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a>. An "fsnet" domain name is free webhosting, so it's just someone with a website. The banner reads "Sinn Fein/IRA where (sic) nothing more..." so it doesn't seem to have "an established structure for fact-checking and editorial oversight". Removed the unreliable source, and requested citation. <span style="font-family:Verdana;"><a href="/wiki/User:One_Night_In_Hackney" title="User:One Night In Hackney"><span style="color:#006600">One Night In Hackney</span></a><sub><i><a href="/wiki/User_talk:One_Night_In_Hackney" title="User talk:One Night In Hackney"><span style="color:#006600">303</span></a></i></sub></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-08-27T22:18:00.000Z-Unreliable_source" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-08-27T22:18:00.000Z-Unreliable_source"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-08-27T22:18:00.000Z-Unreliable_source"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-08-27T22:22:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-08-27T22:18:00.000Z"></span>Granted the source is clearly PoV but this is clearly not a contentious issue, as anyone who was at the funeral could tell you. --<a href="/wiki/User:Counter-revolutionary" title="User:Counter-revolutionary">Counter-revolutionary</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-08-27T22:22:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-08-27T22:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:22, 27 August 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-08-27T22:22:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-08-27T22:18:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-08-27T22:22:00.000Z-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-08-27T22:18:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-08-27T22:23:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-08-27T22:22:00.000Z"></span>The source is a man with a website, that does not meet <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a>. I'm not saying the quote is contentious, had I thought it so I would have removed the entire quote at the same time. Please provide a reliable source for it. <span style="font-family:Verdana;"><a href="/wiki/User:One_Night_In_Hackney" title="User:One Night In Hackney"><span style="color:#006600">One Night In Hackney</span></a><sub><i><a href="/wiki/User_talk:One_Night_In_Hackney" title="User talk:One Night In Hackney"><span style="color:#006600">303</span></a></i></sub></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-08-27T22:23:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-08-27T22:22:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:23, 27 August 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-08-27T22:23:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-08-27T22:22:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-One_Night_In_Hackney-2007-08-27T22:23:00.000Z-Counter-revolutionary-2007-08-27T22:22:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id=""Good_Article"" data-mw-thread-id="h-"Good_Article"-2007-11-19T13:05:00.000Z"><span id=".22Good_Article.22"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-"Good_Article"-2007-11-19T13:05:00.000Z"></span>"Good Article"<span data-mw-comment-end="h-"Good_Article"-2007-11-19T13:05:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Norman_Stronge&action=edit&section=24" title="Edit section: "Good Article""><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-11-19T13:05:00.000Z-"Good_Article""></span>Surely this is a good article. Everything's referenced, reads very well, nice style, NPoV, &c., &c... --<a href="/wiki/User:Counter-revolutionary" title="User:Counter-revolutionary">Counter-revolutionary</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Counter-revolutionary" title="User talk:Counter-revolutionary">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-11-19T13:05:00.000Z-"Good_Article"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:05, 19 November 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-11-19T13:05:00.000Z-"Good_Article""><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Counter-revolutionary-2007-11-19T13:05:00.000Z-"Good_Article""></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="There_is_no_other_name_for_cold-blooded_MURDER." data-mw-thread-id="h-There_is_no_other_name_for_cold-blooded_MURDER.-2009-06-23T12:16:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-There_is_no_other_name_for_cold-blooded_MURDER.-2009-06-23T12:16:00.000Z"></span>There is no other name for cold-blooded MURDER.<span data-mw-comment-end="h-There_is_no_other_name_for_cold-blooded_MURDER.-2009-06-23T12:16:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Norman_Stronge&action=edit&section=25" title="Edit section: There is no other name for cold-blooded MURDER."><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-De_Unionist-2009-06-23T12:16:00.000Z-There_is_no_other_name_for_cold-blooded_MURDER."></span>Disruptive edits are never acceptable. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">WP:NPOV</a> comments by Republican sympathisers are certainly not acceptable. Sir Norman Stronge and his son were brutally murdered in the most heinous circumstances. The adjective 'killed' does not go anywhere close to describing this barbaric and cowardly crime against humanity. --<a href="/wiki/User:De_Unionist" title="User:De Unionist">De Unionist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:De_Unionist" title="User talk:De Unionist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-De_Unionist-2009-06-23T12:16:00.000Z-There_is_no_other_name_for_cold-blooded_MURDER." class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:16, 23 June 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-De_Unionist-2009-06-23T12:16:00.000Z-There_is_no_other_name_for_cold-blooded_MURDER."><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-De_Unionist-2009-06-23T12:16:00.000Z-There_is_no_other_name_for_cold-blooded_MURDER."></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Simon_Harley-2009-06-23T12:24:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-23T12:16:00.000Z"></span>The brutal nature of the killing is readily apparent in the existing dispassionate and encyclopædic text. There is no need to elaborate further. --<a href="/wiki/User:Simon_Harley" title="User:Simon Harley">Simon Harley</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Simon_Harley" title="User talk:Simon Harley">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/User:Simon_Harley/Library" title="User:Simon Harley/Library">library</a> | <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Simon_Harley/Reviews&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Simon Harley/Reviews (page does not exist)">book reviews</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Simon_Harley-2009-06-23T12:24:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-23T12:16:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:24, 23 June 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Simon_Harley-2009-06-23T12:24:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-23T12:16:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Simon_Harley-2009-06-23T12:24:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-23T12:16:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-De_Unionist-2009-06-23T12:39:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-23T12:16:00.000Z"></span>Disagree, it could be much better and I will attempt to do so with verifcations in due course. This is what the project is all about, improving articles. --<a href="/wiki/User:De_Unionist" title="User:De Unionist">De Unionist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:De_Unionist" title="User talk:De Unionist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-De_Unionist-2009-06-23T12:39:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-23T12:16:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:39, 23 June 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-De_Unionist-2009-06-23T12:39:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-23T12:16:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-De_Unionist-2009-06-23T12:39:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-23T12:16:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Canterbury_Tail-2009-06-23T15:23:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-23T12:39:00.000Z"></span>Yes, it's about improving articles, but not to change them to show your viewpoint on events. Remember Wikipedia is a neutral encyclopaedic, not a news source, not a soapbox, and not a site to display your views on a matter. <a href="/wiki/User:Canterbury_Tail" title="User:Canterbury Tail"><span style="color:Blue;"><b>Canterbury Tail</b></span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Canterbury_Tail" title="User talk:Canterbury Tail"><i><span style="color:Blue;">talk</span></i></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Canterbury_Tail-2009-06-23T15:23:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-23T12:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:23, 23 June 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Canterbury_Tail-2009-06-23T15:23:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-23T12:39:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Canterbury_Tail-2009-06-23T15:23:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-23T12:39:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T01:39:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-23T12:16:00.000Z"></span>It is the verifiable facts that count, nothing else. --<a href="/wiki/User:De_Unionist" title="User:De Unionist">De Unionist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:De_Unionist" title="User talk:De Unionist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T01:39:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-23T12:16:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:39, 24 June 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T01:39:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-23T12:16:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T01:39:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-23T12:16:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Canterbury_Tail-2009-06-24T02:11:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T01:39:00.000Z"></span>Yes, verifiable facts. What you changed needs to be verified. It needs to be referenced that it's murder, referenced that they where heavily armed terrorists, referenced that he was a serial killer etc. <a href="/wiki/User:Canterbury_Tail" title="User:Canterbury Tail"><span style="color:Blue;"><b>Canterbury Tail</b></span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Canterbury_Tail" title="User talk:Canterbury Tail"><i><span style="color:Blue;">talk</span></i></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Canterbury_Tail-2009-06-24T02:11:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T01:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:11, 24 June 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Canterbury_Tail-2009-06-24T02:11:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T01:39:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Canterbury_Tail-2009-06-24T02:11:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T01:39:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Simon_Harley-2009-06-24T09:01:00.000Z-Canterbury_Tail-2009-06-24T02:11:00.000Z"></span>The verifiable facts are already there. There is already a paragraph devoted to the description of the killings as "murder" by a number of news sources. How is that not satisfactory? --<a href="/wiki/User:Simon_Harley" title="User:Simon Harley">Simon Harley</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Simon_Harley" title="User talk:Simon Harley">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/User:Simon_Harley/Library" title="User:Simon Harley/Library">library</a> | <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Simon_Harley/Reviews&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Simon Harley/Reviews (page does not exist)">book reviews</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Simon_Harley-2009-06-24T09:01:00.000Z-Canterbury_Tail-2009-06-24T02:11:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:01, 24 June 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Simon_Harley-2009-06-24T09:01:00.000Z-Canterbury_Tail-2009-06-24T02:11:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Simon_Harley-2009-06-24T09:01:00.000Z-Canterbury_Tail-2009-06-24T02:11:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-BigDunc-2009-06-24T09:11:00.000Z-Simon_Harley-2009-06-24T09:01:00.000Z"></span>(ec) The reason that it is not acceptable to De Unionist is due to their POV the comment they made above <i>killed' does not go anywhere close to describing this barbaric and cowardly crime against humanity</i> shows that they want to editorialise and push a POV. <strong><a href="/wiki/User:BigDunc" title="User:BigDunc"><span style="font-family:Ariel Black;color:Green">BigDunc</span></a></strong><a href="/wiki/User_talk:BigDunc" title="User talk:BigDunc"><sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Orange">Talk</span></sup></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-BigDunc-2009-06-24T09:11:00.000Z-Simon_Harley-2009-06-24T09:01:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:11, 24 June 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-BigDunc-2009-06-24T09:11:00.000Z-Simon_Harley-2009-06-24T09:01:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-BigDunc-2009-06-24T09:11:00.000Z-Simon_Harley-2009-06-24T09:01:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-O_Fenian-2009-06-24T09:08:00.000Z-Simon_Harley-2009-06-24T09:01:00.000Z"></span>It is more than satisfactory. <a href="/wiki/User:O_Fenian" title="User:O Fenian">O Fenian</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:O_Fenian" title="User talk:O Fenian">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-O_Fenian-2009-06-24T09:08:00.000Z-Simon_Harley-2009-06-24T09:01:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:08, 24 June 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-O_Fenian-2009-06-24T09:08:00.000Z-Simon_Harley-2009-06-24T09:01:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-O_Fenian-2009-06-24T09:08:00.000Z-Simon_Harley-2009-06-24T09:01:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T09:27:00.000Z-There_is_no_other_name_for_cold-blooded_MURDER."></span>To you it would be! <b>Killed</b> is when you get run over crossing a road, <b>murdered</b> is cold-blooded pre-meditated killing, see <a href="/wiki/Murder" title="Murder">Murder</a> for description. The term murder is totally appropriate in this context. --<a href="/wiki/User:De_Unionist" title="User:De Unionist">De Unionist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:De_Unionist" title="User talk:De Unionist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T09:27:00.000Z-There_is_no_other_name_for_cold-blooded_MURDER." class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:27, 24 June 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T09:27:00.000Z-There_is_no_other_name_for_cold-blooded_MURDER."><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T09:27:00.000Z-There_is_no_other_name_for_cold-blooded_MURDER."></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-O_Fenian-2009-06-24T09:29:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T09:27:00.000Z"></span>No. Saying who said he was murdered as at present is sufficient. <a href="/wiki/User:O_Fenian" title="User:O Fenian">O Fenian</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:O_Fenian" title="User talk:O Fenian">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-O_Fenian-2009-06-24T09:29:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T09:27:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:29, 24 June 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-O_Fenian-2009-06-24T09:29:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T09:27:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-O_Fenian-2009-06-24T09:29:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T09:27:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T09:37:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T09:27:00.000Z"></span>Talk English please otherwise STOP disrupting. --<a href="/wiki/User:De_Unionist" title="User:De Unionist">De Unionist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:De_Unionist" title="User talk:De Unionist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T09:37:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T09:27:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:37, 24 June 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T09:37:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T09:27:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T09:37:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T09:27:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2009-06-24T10:02:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T09:27:00.000Z"></span>I disagree.--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Vintagekits" title="User talk:Vintagekits">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2009-06-24T10:02:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T09:27:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:02, 24 June 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2009-06-24T10:02:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T09:27:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2009-06-24T10:02:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-06-24T09:27:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-David_Underdown-2009-06-24T11:16:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2009-06-24T10:02:00.000Z"></span>Killed is quite sufficient, there is enough info in the article for people to make up their own minds, which is jsut as it should be per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">WP:NPOV</a>. Also be aware of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:3RR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:3RR">the three revert rule</a> which you are in grave danger of breaching, an which could lead to you being blocked, also see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/The_Troubles" title="Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles">Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles</a> which any uninvolved administrator could decide should be applied to you. <a href="/wiki/User:David_Underdown" title="User:David Underdown">David Underdown</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:David_Underdown" title="User talk:David Underdown">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-David_Underdown-2009-06-24T11:16:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2009-06-24T10:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:16, 24 June 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-David_Underdown-2009-06-24T11:16:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2009-06-24T10:02:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-David_Underdown-2009-06-24T11:16:00.000Z-Vintagekits-2009-06-24T10:02:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mooretwin-2009-07-01T14:59:00.000Z-David_Underdown-2009-06-24T11:16:00.000Z"></span>In what way is "murder" a POV term? As I understand it, there is no dispute that Stronge's killing was premeditated and unlawful. Therefore, by definition, it was murder. <a href="/wiki/User:Mooretwin" title="User:Mooretwin">Mooretwin</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mooretwin" title="User talk:Mooretwin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Mooretwin-2009-07-01T14:59:00.000Z-David_Underdown-2009-06-24T11:16:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:59, 1 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mooretwin-2009-07-01T14:59:00.000Z-David_Underdown-2009-06-24T11:16:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mooretwin-2009-07-01T14:59:00.000Z-David_Underdown-2009-06-24T11:16:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-De_Unionist-2009-07-02T13:48:00.000Z-Mooretwin-2009-07-01T14:59:00.000Z"></span>Maybe these links will verify it. <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written_answers/1981/mar/13/sir-norman-stronge-murder">[11]</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1981/feb/12/security#S5CV0998P0_19810212_HOC_34">[12]</a> --<a href="/wiki/User:De_Unionist" title="User:De Unionist">De Unionist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:De_Unionist" title="User talk:De Unionist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-De_Unionist-2009-07-02T13:48:00.000Z-Mooretwin-2009-07-01T14:59:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:48, 2 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-De_Unionist-2009-07-02T13:48:00.000Z-Mooretwin-2009-07-01T14:59:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-De_Unionist-2009-07-02T13:48:00.000Z-Mooretwin-2009-07-01T14:59:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-David_Underdown-2009-07-02T14:40:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-07-02T13:48:00.000Z"></span>There's a more philosophical question related to the idea taht one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter - murder or assassination? Wikiepdia forces us to consider the other side's point of view as well as our own, and represent matters as fully and neutrally as possible. So we say he was killed, put up all the basic facts, and allow the reader to decide for themselves how they wish to characterise the killing, regardless of our own views on teh matter. <a href="/wiki/User:David_Underdown" title="User:David Underdown">David Underdown</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:David_Underdown" title="User talk:David Underdown">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-David_Underdown-2009-07-02T14:40:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-07-02T13:48:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:40, 2 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-David_Underdown-2009-07-02T14:40:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-07-02T13:48:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-David_Underdown-2009-07-02T14:40:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-07-02T13:48:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mooretwin-2009-07-06T10:51:00.000Z-David_Underdown-2009-07-02T14:40:00.000Z"></span>An assassination is a category <i>of</i> murder: not a separate classification <i>to</i> murder. There may be those who believe that the murder of Sir Norman was justified for political reasons, but that does not alter the fact that it was a murder - unless there is anything to suggest that his killing was either (a) not intentional or (b) not premeditated. <a href="/wiki/User:Mooretwin" title="User:Mooretwin">Mooretwin</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mooretwin" title="User talk:Mooretwin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Mooretwin-2009-07-06T10:51:00.000Z-David_Underdown-2009-07-02T14:40:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:51, 6 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mooretwin-2009-07-06T10:51:00.000Z-David_Underdown-2009-07-02T14:40:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mooretwin-2009-07-06T10:51:00.000Z-David_Underdown-2009-07-02T14:40:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vintagekits-2009-07-06T10:59:00.000Z-Mooretwin-2009-07-06T10:51:00.000Z"></span>Consider yourself and your "sock" mate out numbered on this occasion.--<a href="/wiki/User:Vintagekits" title="User:Vintagekits">Vintagekits</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Vintagekits" title="User talk:Vintagekits">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Vintagekits-2009-07-06T10:59:00.000Z-Mooretwin-2009-07-06T10:51:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:59, 6 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vintagekits-2009-07-06T10:59:00.000Z-Mooretwin-2009-07-06T10:51:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vintagekits-2009-07-06T10:59:00.000Z-Mooretwin-2009-07-06T10:51:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-De_Unionist-2009-07-02T23:13:00.000Z-There_is_no_other_name_for_cold-blooded_MURDER."></span>Maybe you should read <a href="/wiki/Murder" title="Murder">murder</a> which is very clear on the distinction with the commonly used 'killed'. Murder, as defined in common law countries, is the unlawful killing of another human being with <b>intent (or malice aforethought)</b>, and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide. The killing of Sir Norman Stronge and his son James by the PIRA falls squarely within this definition. Appeasement of a uncivil minority is not an option. --<a href="/wiki/User:De_Unionist" title="User:De Unionist">De Unionist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:De_Unionist" title="User talk:De Unionist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-De_Unionist-2009-07-02T23:13:00.000Z-There_is_no_other_name_for_cold-blooded_MURDER." class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:13, 2 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-De_Unionist-2009-07-02T23:13:00.000Z-There_is_no_other_name_for_cold-blooded_MURDER."><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-De_Unionist-2009-07-02T23:13:00.000Z-There_is_no_other_name_for_cold-blooded_MURDER."></span> </p> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/User:De_Unionist" title="User:De Unionist"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Domer48-2009-07-12T12:17:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-07-02T23:13:00.000Z"></span>De Unionist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:De_Unionist" title="User talk:De Unionist">talk</a>) is a sock puppet of <a href="/wiki/User:The_Maiden_City" title="User:The Maiden City">The Maiden City</a> and has been blocked indefinitely.--<span style="font-family:Celtic;"><a href="/wiki/User:Domer48" title="User:Domer48"><strong style="color:#009900;">Domer48</strong></a><i><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Domer48" title="User talk:Domer48"><sub style="color:#006600;">'fenian'</sub></a></i></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Norman_Stronge#c-Domer48-2009-07-12T12:17:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-07-02T23:13:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:17, 12 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Domer48-2009-07-12T12:17:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-07-02T23:13:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Domer48-2009-07-12T12:17:00.000Z-De_Unionist-2009-07-02T23:13:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="External_links_modified" data-mw-thread-id="h-External_links_modified-2017-09-19T01:26:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-External_links_modified-2017-09-19T01:26:00.000Z"></span>External links modified<span data-mw-comment-end="h-External_links_modified-2017-09-19T01:26:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Norman_Stronge&action=edit&section=26" title="Edit section: External links modified"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-InternetArchiveBot-2017-09-19T01:26:00.000Z-External_links_modified"></span>Hello fellow Wikipedians, </p><p>I have just modified one external link on <a href="/wiki/Norman_Stronge" title="Norman Stronge">Norman Stronge</a>. 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