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class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#New_academic_information_revelation"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">2</span> <span>New academic information revelation</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-New_academic_information_revelation-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-temporary_full_protection" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#temporary_full_protection"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">3</span> <span>temporary full protection</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-temporary_full_protection-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-sourcing_restriction_removed" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 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href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan&oldid=1011778167" title="Talk:Syrian Kurdistan">Revision as of 19:40, 12 March 2021</a> <span class="mw-diff-edit"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan&action=edit&oldid=1011778167" title="Talk:Syrian Kurdistan">edit</a></span><span class="mw-diff-timestamp" data-timestamp="2021-03-12T19:40:37Z"></span></strong></div><div id="mw-diff-otitle2"><a href="/wiki/User:Levivich" class="mw-userlink" title="User:Levivich" data-mw-revid="1011778167"><bdi>Levivich</bdi></a> <span class="mw-usertoollinks">(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Levivich" class="mw-usertoollinks-talk" title="User talk:Levivich">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Levivich" class="mw-usertoollinks-contribs" title="Special:Contributions/Levivich">contribs</a>)</span><div class="mw-diff-usermetadata"><div class="mw-diff-userroles"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Extended_confirmed_editors" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Extended confirmed editors">Extended confirmed users</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Page_mover" title="Wikipedia:Page mover">Page movers</a></div><div class="mw-diff-usereditcount"><span>40,195</span> edits</div></div></div><div id="mw-diff-otitle3"> <span class="comment comment--without-parentheses"><span class="autocomment"><a href="#Remarks">→<bdi dir="ltr">Remarks</bdi></a>: </span> OK thanks for starting the RSN thread, I'll reply about Izady there.</span></div><div id="mw-diff-otitle5"><span class="mw-tag-markers"><a href="/wiki/Special:Tags" title="Special:Tags">Tag</a>: <span class="mw-tag-marker mw-tag-marker-discussiontools-reply"><a href="https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Help:DiscussionTools">Reply</a></span></span></div><div id="mw-diff-otitle4"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan&diff=prev&oldid=1011778167" title="Talk:Syrian Kurdistan" id="differences-prevlink">← Previous edit</a></div></td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-ntitle diff-side-added"><div id="mw-diff-ntitle1"><strong><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan&oldid=1011945274" title="Talk:Syrian Kurdistan">Revision as of 18:54, 13 March 2021</a> <span class="mw-diff-edit"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan&action=edit&oldid=1011945274" title="Talk:Syrian Kurdistan">edit</a></span><span class="mw-diff-timestamp" data-timestamp="2021-03-13T18:54:42Z"></span> <span class="mw-diff-undo"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan&action=edit&undoafter=1011778167&undo=1011945274" title=""Undo" reverts this edit and opens the edit form in preview mode. It allows adding a reason in the summary.">undo</a></span></strong></div><div id="mw-diff-ntitle2"><a href="/wiki/User:Levivich" class="mw-userlink" title="User:Levivich" data-mw-revid="1011945274"><bdi>Levivich</bdi></a> <span class="mw-usertoollinks">(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Levivich" class="mw-usertoollinks-talk" title="User talk:Levivich">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Levivich" class="mw-usertoollinks-contribs" title="Special:Contributions/Levivich">contribs</a>)</span><div class="mw-diff-usermetadata"><div class="mw-diff-userroles"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Extended_confirmed_editors" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Extended confirmed editors">Extended confirmed users</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Page_mover" title="Wikipedia:Page mover">Page movers</a></div><div class="mw-diff-usereditcount"><span>40,195</span> edits</div></div></div><div id="mw-diff-ntitle3"> <span class="comment comment--without-parentheses"><span class="autocomment"><a href="#Remarks">→<bdi dir="ltr">Remarks</bdi></a>: </span>No objection to removing izady based on rsn thread</span></div><div id="mw-diff-ntitle5"><span class="mw-tag-markers"><a href="/wiki/Special:Tags" title="Special:Tags">Tags</a>: <span class="mw-tag-marker mw-tag-marker-mobile_edit">Mobile edit</span> <span class="mw-tag-marker mw-tag-marker-mobile_web_edit">Mobile web edit</span> <span class="mw-tag-marker mw-tag-marker-advanced_mobile_edit">Advanced mobile edit</span></span></div><div id="mw-diff-ntitle4"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan&diff=next&oldid=1011945274" title="Talk:Syrian Kurdistan" id="differences-nextlink">Next edit →</a></div></td> </tr><tr> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 133:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 133:</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-deleted"><div>::::Another note: Im not asking to change the prose, just remove Izady as he is an example of bad scholarship where an academic uses his status to push theories that support nationalistic myths.--[[User:Attar-Aram syria|Attar-Aram syria]] ([[User talk:Attar-Aram syria|talk]]) 19:27, 12 March 2021 (UTC)</div></td> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-added"><div>::::Another note: Im not asking to change the prose, just remove Izady as he is an example of bad scholarship where an academic uses his status to push theories that support nationalistic myths.--[[User:Attar-Aram syria|Attar-Aram syria]] ([[User talk:Attar-Aram syria|talk]]) 19:27, 12 March 2021 (UTC)</div></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-deleted"><div>:::::OK thanks for starting the RSN thread, I'll reply about Izady there. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Levivich|harass]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contribs/Levivich|hound]]</sub> 19:40, 12 March 2021 (UTC)</div></td> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-added"><div>:::::OK thanks for starting the RSN thread, I'll reply about Izady there. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Levivich|harass]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contribs/Levivich|hound]]</sub> 19:40, 12 March 2021 (UTC)</div></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" class="diff-empty diff-side-deleted"></td> <td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td> <td class="diff-addedline diff-side-added"><div>:::::OK no objection here to removing Izady based on the RSN thread. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Levivich|harass]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contribs/Levivich|hound]]</sub> 18:54, 13 March 2021 (UTC)</div></td> </tr> </table><hr class='diff-hr' id='mw-oldid' /> <h2 class='diff-currentversion-title'>Revision as of 18:54, 13 March 2021</h2> <div class="mw-content-ltr mw-parser-output" lang="en" dir="ltr"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1237879475">.mw-parser-output .tmbox{margin:4px 0;border-collapse:collapse;border:1px solid #c0c090;background-color:#f8eaba;box-sizing:border-box}.mw-parser-output .tmbox.mbox-small{font-size:88%;line-height:1.25em}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{border:2px solid #b32424;background-color:#fee7e6}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-delete{border:2px solid #b32424}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-content{border:2px solid #f28500}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-style{border:2px solid #fc3}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-move{border:2px solid #9932cc}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-text{border:none;padding:0.25em 0.9em;width:100%}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-image{border:none;padding:2px 0 2px 0.9em;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-imageright{border:none;padding:2px 0.9em 2px 0;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-empty-cell{border:none;padding:0;width:1px}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-invalid-type{text-align:center}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .tmbox{margin:4px 10%}.mw-parser-output .tmbox.mbox-small{clear:right;float:right;margin:4px 0 4px 1em;width:238px}}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .tmbox{background-color:#2e2505}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .tmbox{background-color:#2e2505}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}body.skin--responsive .mw-parser-output table.tmbox img{max-width:none!important}</style><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1230750088">.mw-parser-output .talkheader{text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-body{display:flex}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts{display:flex;align-items:center;padding:0.1em}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help{flex:2 1 auto;border:1px solid #c0c090;background-color:var(--background-color-base,#ffffff);color:inherit}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies{flex:1 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies+.talkheader-policies{border-left:1px solid #c0c090}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts{flex:0 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help>*,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies>*,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts>*{flex:1 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help ul,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies ul{margin:0.1em 0.8em 0 1.6em;text-align:left}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .talkheader{min-width:80%}}</style><table role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice talkheader plainlinks" id="talkheader" style="border-collapse: separate;"><tbody><tr> <td style="border-bottom: 1px solid #c0c090; font-weight: bold;">This is the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines" title="Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines">talk page</a> for discussing improvements to the <a href="/wiki/Syrian_Kurdistan" title="Syrian Kurdistan">Syrian Kurdistan</a> article.<br/> This is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#FORUM" title="Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not">not a forum</a> for general discussion of the article's subject.</td> </tr> <tr> <td> <div class="talkheader-body"> <div class="talkheader-help"> <ul><li>Put new text under old text. <strong><a href="/wiki/Special:NewSection/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan" title="Special:NewSection/Talk:Syrian Kurdistan">Click here to start a new topic.</a></strong></li> <li>New to Wikipedia? 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padding: 1px 3px;"><span class="plainlinks"><i>Find sources:</i> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?as_eq=wikipedia&q=%22Syrian+Kurdistan%22">Google</a> (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks:1&q=%22Syrian+Kurdistan%22+-wikipedia">books</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?tbm=nws&q=%22Syrian+Kurdistan%22+-wikipedia&tbs=ar:1">news</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22Syrian+Kurdistan%22">scholar</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&tbs=sur:fmc&tbm=isch&q=%22Syrian+Kurdistan%22+-site:wikipedia.org+-site:wikimedia.org">free images</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&cx=007734830908295939403%3Agalkqgoksq0&cof=FORID%3A13%3BAH%3Aleft%3BCX%3AWikipedia%2520Reference%2520Search&q=%22Syrian+Kurdistan%22">WP refs</a>) <b>·</b> <span title="Free English newspaper sources" style="border-bottom: 1px dotted;"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Free_English_newspaper_sources">FENS</a></span> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=%22Syrian+Kurdistan%22&acc=on&wc=on">JSTOR</a> <b>·</b> <span title="The Wikipedia Library" style="border-bottom: 1px dotted;"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://wikipedialibrary.wmflabs.org/search/?q=%22Syrian+Kurdistan%22">TWL</a></span></span></td></tr><tr><td style="border-top: 1px solid #c0c090; 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screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}</style><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Kurdistan.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Flag_of_Kurdistan.svg/35px-Flag_of_Kurdistan.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="23" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Flag_of_Kurdistan.svg/53px-Flag_of_Kurdistan.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Flag_of_Kurdistan.svg/70px-Flag_of_Kurdistan.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Kurdistan" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Kurdistan">Kurdistan</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles class-c">C‑class</span> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-top">Top‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Kurdistan.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Flag_of_Kurdistan.svg/75px-Flag_of_Kurdistan.svg.png" decoding="async" width="75" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Flag_of_Kurdistan.svg/113px-Flag_of_Kurdistan.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Flag_of_Kurdistan.svg/150px-Flag_of_Kurdistan.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1259569809">.mw-parser-output .portalbox{padding:0;margin:0.5em 0;display:table;box-sizing:border-box;max-width:175px;list-style:none}.mw-parser-output .portalborder{border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:0.1em;background:var(--background-color-neutral-subtle,#f8f9fa)}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-entry{display:table-row;font-size:85%;line-height:110%;height:1.9em;font-style:italic;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-image{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em;vertical-align:middle;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-link{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em;vertical-align:middle}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .portalleft{clear:left;float:left;margin:0.5em 1em 0.5em 0}.mw-parser-output .portalright{clear:right;float:right;margin:0.5em 0 0.5em 1em}}</style><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="mw-image-border noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="flag" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Flag_of_Kurdistan.svg/32px-Flag_of_Kurdistan.svg.png" decoding="async" width="32" height="21" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Flag_of_Kurdistan.svg/48px-Flag_of_Kurdistan.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Flag_of_Kurdistan.svg/64px-Flag_of_Kurdistan.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Kurdistan" title="Portal:Kurdistan">Kurdistan portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Kurdistan" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Kurdistan">WikiProject Kurdistan</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to <a href="/wiki/Kurdistan" title="Kurdistan">Kurdistan</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Kurdistan" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Kurdistan">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Kurdistan</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Kurdistan</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Kurdistan</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Kurdistan articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess class-c"><a href="/wiki/Category:C-Class_Kurdistan_articles" title="Category:C-Class Kurdistan articles">C</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>C-class</b> on Wikipedia's <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_assessment" title="Wikipedia:Content assessment">content assessment</a> scale.</td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-top"><a href="/wiki/Category:Top-importance_Kurdistan_articles" title="Category:Top-importance Kurdistan articles">Top</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Top-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Kurdistan/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Kurdistan/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259570071"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_United_Arab_Republic_(1958%E2%80%931971).svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/Flag_of_the_United_Arab_Republic_%281958%E2%80%931971%29.svg/35px-Flag_of_the_United_Arab_Republic_%281958%E2%80%931971%29.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="23" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/Flag_of_the_United_Arab_Republic_%281958%E2%80%931971%29.svg/53px-Flag_of_the_United_Arab_Republic_%281958%E2%80%931971%29.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/Flag_of_the_United_Arab_Republic_%281958%E2%80%931971%29.svg/70px-Flag_of_the_United_Arab_Republic_%281958%E2%80%931971%29.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Syria" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Syria">Syria</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles class-c">C‑class</span> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-mid">Mid‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_United_Arab_Republic_(1958%E2%80%931971).svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/Flag_of_the_United_Arab_Republic_%281958%E2%80%931971%29.svg/80px-Flag_of_the_United_Arab_Republic_%281958%E2%80%931971%29.svg.png" decoding="async" width="80" height="53" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/Flag_of_the_United_Arab_Republic_%281958%E2%80%931971%29.svg/120px-Flag_of_the_United_Arab_Republic_%281958%E2%80%931971%29.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/Flag_of_the_United_Arab_Republic_%281958%E2%80%931971%29.svg/160px-Flag_of_the_United_Arab_Republic_%281958%E2%80%931971%29.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Syria" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Syria">WikiProject Syria</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/Syria" title="Syria">Syria</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Syria" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Syria">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Syria</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Syria</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Syria</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Syria articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess class-c"><a href="/wiki/Category:C-Class_Syria_articles" title="Category:C-Class Syria articles">C</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>C-class</b> on Wikipedia's <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_assessment" title="Wikipedia:Content assessment">content assessment</a> scale.</td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-mid"><a href="/wiki/Category:Mid-importance_Syria_articles" title="Category:Mid-importance Syria articles">Mid</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Mid-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Syria/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Syria/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><figure class="mw-halign-none" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:World_Map_Icon.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="Map needed"><img alt="Map needed" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/World_Map_Icon.svg/64px-World_Map_Icon.svg.png" decoding="async" width="64" height="33" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/World_Map_Icon.svg/96px-World_Map_Icon.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/World_Map_Icon.svg/128px-World_Map_Icon.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="471" data-file-height="242"/></a><figcaption>Map needed</figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text">It is requested that a <b>map</b> or <b>maps</b>, showing the three maps of Kurdistan prepared in the 1940s, with their various definitions of Syrian Kurdistan (i.e., the section of Kurdistan inside the existing borders of Syria, preferably, an .svg image showing the various border lines and the locations of the major modern towns (<a href="/wiki/Ras_al-Ayn" title="Ras al-Ayn">Ras al-Ayn</a>, <a href="/wiki/Qamishli" title="Qamishli">Qamishli</a>, <a href="/wiki/Kobane" class="mw-redirect" title="Kobane">Kobane</a>, <a href="/wiki/Al-Hasaka" class="mw-redirect" title="Al-Hasaka">al-Hasaka</a>, <a href="/wiki/Jarabulus" title="Jarabulus">Jarabulus</a>, and <a href="/wiki/Afrin,_Syria" title="Afrin, Syria">Afrin</a>), and ideally including the rivers and their tributaries, as can be seen in <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://waterinventory.org/sites/waterinventory.org/files/maps/Chapter-02-Shared-Tribiutaries-of-the-Euphrates-River-map_0.pdf">this map of the </a><a href="/wiki/Euphrates" title="Euphrates">Euphrates</a> and <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://waterinventory.org/sites/waterinventory.org/files/maps/Chapter-04-Shared-Tributaries-of-the-Tigris-map.pdf">the map of the </a><a href="/wiki/Tigris" title="Tigris">Tigris</a>. The three maps can be at low resolution in the existing <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kurdistan_on_the_1945_San_Francisco_Conference_map,_the_1946_Rizgari_United_Nations_memorandum_map,_and_the_1947_Cairo_map.png">map</a> (Top: map presented at the <a href="/wiki/United_Nations_Conference_on_International_Organization" title="United Nations Conference on International Organization">United Nations Conference on International Organization</a> in 1945; Centre: map from the Rizgari Party's memorandum to the United Nations in 1946; Bottom: map drawn in Cairo in 1947) which was adapted from <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1238218222">.mw-parser-output cite.citation{font-style:inherit;word-wrap:break-word}.mw-parser-output .citation q{quotes:"\"""\"""'""'"}.mw-parser-output .citation:target{background-color:rgba(0,127,255,0.133)}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-free.id-lock-free a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Lock-green.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited.id-lock-limited a,.mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration.id-lock-registration a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Lock-gray-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription.id-lock-subscription a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Lock-red-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Wikisource-logo.svg")right 0.1em center/12px no-repeat}body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-free a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background-size:contain;padding:0 1em 0 0}.mw-parser-output .cs1-code{color:inherit;background:inherit;border:none;padding:inherit}.mw-parser-output .cs1-hidden-error{display:none;color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-visible-error{color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{display:none;color:#085;margin-left:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-left{padding-left:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-right{padding-right:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .citation .mw-selflink{font-weight:inherit}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .cs1-format{font-size:95%}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}</style><cite class="citation book cs1">O'Shea, Maria T. (2004). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Trapped_Between_the_Map_and_Reality.html?id=SvEfmAEACAAJ"><i>Trapped Between the Map and Reality: Geography and Perceptions of Kurdistan</i></a>. New York and London: Routledge. pp. 151, 154. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-0-415-94766-4" title="Special:BookSources/978-0-415-94766-4"><bdi>978-0-415-94766-4</bdi></a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Trapped+Between+the+Map+and+Reality%3A+Geography+and+Perceptions+of+Kurdistan&rft.place=New+York+and+London&rft.pages=151%2C+154&rft.pub=Routledge&rft.date=2004&rft.isbn=978-0-415-94766-4&rft.aulast=O%27Shea&rft.aufirst=Maria+T.&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.uk%2Fbooks%2Fabout%2FTrapped_Between_the_Map_and_Reality.html%3Fid%3DSvEfmAEACAAJ&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3ASyrian+Kurdistan" class="Z3988"></span>, be <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Uploading_images" title="Wikipedia:Uploading images">included</a> in this article to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_development" title="Wikipedia:Article development">improve its quality</a>.<br/> <b>Wikipedians in Syria</b> may be able to help!</td></tr></tbody></table> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Best_sources_for_this_article" data-mw-thread-id="h-Best_sources_for_this_article-2020-12-07T06:26:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Best_sources_for_this_article-2020-12-07T06:26:00.000Z"></span>Best sources for this article<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Best_sources_for_this_article-2020-12-07T06:26:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Levivich-2020-12-07T06:26:00.000Z-Best_sources_for_this_article"></span><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="plainlinks tmbox mbox-small tmbox-notice" role="presentation" style="width:300px;"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><div style="padding: 10px;"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Toicon-icon-stone-pin.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Toicon-icon-stone-pin.svg/30px-Toicon-icon-stone-pin.svg.png" decoding="async" width="30" height="30" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Toicon-icon-stone-pin.svg/45px-Toicon-icon-stone-pin.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Toicon-icon-stone-pin.svg/60px-Toicon-icon-stone-pin.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="32" data-file-height="32"/></a></span></div></td><td class="mbox-text">This section is pinned and will not be <a href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page#Automated_archival" title="Help:Archiving a talk page">automatically archived</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table> <p>I looked for book-length scholarship by academic publishers from the last five years or so, and this is what I came up with: </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>About Syrian Kurdistan in particular</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ol><li>Matthieu Cimino (2020), <i>Syria: Borders, Boundaries, and the State</i>, Springer. <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.google.com/books/edition/Syria_Borders_Boundaries_and_the_State/1FvrDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0">[1]</a></li> <li>Harriet Allsopp & <a href="/wiki/Wladimir_van_Wilgenburg" title="Wladimir van Wilgenburg">Wladimir van Wilgenburg</a> (2019), <i>The Kurds of Northern Syria: Governance, Diversity and Conflicts</i>, Bloomsbury. <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Kurds_of_Northern_Syria/9vWlDwAAQBAJ?hl=en">[2]</a></li> <li>Hilly Moodrick-Even Khen, Nir T. Boms & Sareta Ashraph, eds. (2019), <i>The Syrian War: Between Justice and Political Reality</i>, Cambridge. <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Syrian_War/mHG9DwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0">[3]</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Brendan_O%27Leary" title="Brendan O'Leary">Brendan O'Leary</a> (2018), <i>The Kurds, the Four Wolves, and the Great Powers</i>, <i><a href="/wiki/The_Journal_of_Politics" title="The Journal of Politics">The Journal of Politics</a></i>. <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://doi.org/10.1086/695343">[4]</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://pureadmin.qub.ac.uk/ws/files/139709901/695343.pdf">PDF</a> — not a book, but a book review of: <ol><li>Harriet Allsopp (2016), <i>The Kurds of Syria: Political Parties and Identity in the Middle East</i>, Bloomsbury. <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Kurds_of_Syria/fh6QDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0">[5]</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Michael_Gunter" title="Michael Gunter">Michael Gunter</a> (2014), <i>Out of Nowhere: The Kurds of Syria in Peace and War</i>, Hurst. <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.google.com/books/edition/Out_of_Nowhere/96wNngEACAAJ?hl=en">[6]</a></li> <li>Michael Gunter (2017), <i>The Kurds: A Modern History</i>, Markus Wiener Publishers. <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Kurds/rqY3vgAACAAJ?hl=en">[7]</a> (O'Leary reviewed the 2016 ed.)</li></ol> <dl><dd>(And four other books about Kurds in Turkey, Iraq, and Iran.)</dd></dl></li> <li><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.arcadia.edu/profile/samer-abboud">Samer N. Abboud</a> (2015), <i>Syria</i>, Wiley. <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.google.com/books/edition/Syria/BPbrCgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0">[8]</a> <dl><dd>About Kurdistan in general (including Syrian Kurdistan)</dd></dl></li> <li><a href="/wiki/G%C3%BCne%C5%9F_Murat_Tezc%C3%BCr" title="Güneş Murat Tezcür">Güneş Murat Tezcür</a>, ed. (2020), <i>A Century of Kurdish Politics: Citizenship, Statehood and Diplomacy</i>, T&F. <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_Century_of_Kurdish_Politics/DPjrDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0">[9]</a></li> <li>Zeynep N. Kaya (2020), <i>Mapping Kurdistan: Territory, Self-Determination and Nationalism</i>, Cambridge. <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.google.com/books/edition/Mapping_Kurdistan/qRzhDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0">[10]</a></li> <li>David Romano, Mehmet Gurses, and Michael Gunter (2020), <i>The Kurds in the Middle East: Enduring Problems and New Dynamics</i>, <a href="/wiki/Lexington_Books" class="mw-redirect" title="Lexington Books">Lexington Books</a>. <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Kurds_in_the_Middle_East/HYX3DwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0">[11]</a></li> <li>Sebastian Maisel (2018), <i>The Kurds: An Encyclopedia of Life, Culture, and Society</i>, ABC-Clio. <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Kurds_An_Encyclopedia_of_Life_Cultur/QAFeDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0">[12]</a></li> <li>Michael Gunter (2018), <i>Routledge Handbook on the Kurds</i>, T&F. <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.google.com/books/edition/Routledge_Handbook_on_the_Kurds/XjZ7DwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0">[13]</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Gareth_Stansfield" title="Gareth Stansfield">Gareth Stansfield</a>, Mohammed Shareef (eds.) (2017), <i>The Kurdish Question Revisited</i>, Oxford. <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Kurdish_Question_Revisited/SXs7DwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1">[14]</a></li> <li>David L. Phillips (2015), <i>The Kurdish Spring: A New Map of the Middle East</i>, <a href="/wiki/Transaction_Publishers" title="Transaction Publishers">Transaction Publishers</a>. <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Kurdish_Spring/UiGoBgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0">[15]</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Mehrdad_Izady" title="Mehrdad Izady">Mehrdad Izady</a> (2015, orig. 1992), <i>Kurds: A Concise Handbook</i>, T&F. <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.google.com/books/edition/_/EAbICQAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0">[16]</a></li> <li>David McDowall (April 2021, 2004, orig 1996), <i>A Modern History of the Kurds</i>, Bloomsbury. <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_Modern_History_of_the_Kurds/6f54zQEACAAJ?hl=en">[17]</a></li></ol> <p>Anything missing from this list? Anything that should be removed from the list? Some but not all of these are already in the article (or in related articles). <a href="/wiki/User:Levivich" title="User:Levivich">Levivich</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Levivich" title="User talk:Levivich">harass</a></sup>/<sub><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Levivich" title="Special:Contributions/Levivich">hound</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Levivich-2020-12-07T06:26:00.000Z-Best_sources_for_this_article" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:26, 7 December 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Levivich-2020-12-07T06:26:00.000Z-Best_sources_for_this_article"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Levivich-2020-12-07T06:26:00.000Z-Best_sources_for_this_article"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Paradise_Chronicle-2020-12-07T18:23:00.000Z-Levivich-2020-12-07T06:26:00.000Z"></span>I agree with this sources. Merdad Izady has strong opponents, and even the climate info from him is seen as <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Syrian_Kurdistan&diff=989847246&oldid=989845920&diffmode=source">unreliable and is blamed to come from a nationalist.</a> I don't share this view, but it will be difficult to source anything with him.</dd> <dd>Others I would also recommend are:</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><ol><li><a href="/wiki/Jordi_Tejel" title="Jordi Tejel">Jordi Tejell</a>: Syria's Kurds: History, Politics and Society</li></ol></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><ol><li>Jordi Tejel: Le mouvement kurde de Turquie en exil: continuités et discontinuités du nationalisme kurde sous le mandat français en Syrie et au Liban (1925-1946)</li></ol></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><ol><li><a href="/wiki/Roger_Lescot" title="Roger Lescot">Roger Lescot</a> is also good. His books you can read online <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://bnk.institutkurde.org/catalogue/result.php?rech=liste&ordre=auteur&r_total=ok&r_autcode=278">here</a><a href="/wiki/User:Paradise_Chronicle" title="User:Paradise Chronicle">Paradise Chronicle</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paradise_Chronicle" title="User talk:Paradise Chronicle">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Paradise_Chronicle-2020-12-07T18:23:00.000Z-Levivich-2020-12-07T06:26:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:23, 7 December 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Paradise_Chronicle-2020-12-07T18:23:00.000Z-Levivich-2020-12-07T06:26:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Paradise_Chronicle-2020-12-07T18:23:00.000Z-Levivich-2020-12-07T06:26:00.000Z"></span></li></ol></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-08T08:24:00.000Z-Best_sources_for_this_article"></span>Also add Robert Lowe "The Emergence of Western Kurdistan and the Future of Syria" in D. Romano et al. (eds.), Conflict, Democratization, and the Kurds in the Middle East (2014). As for Izady (<a href="/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan/Archive_2#Mehrdad_Izady" title="Talk:Syrian Kurdistan/Archive 2">aside from the academic criticism</a>), it is not as simple as climate. --<a href="/wiki/User:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User:Attar-Aram syria">Attar-Aram syria</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User talk:Attar-Aram syria">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-08T08:24:00.000Z-Best_sources_for_this_article" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:24, 8 December 2020 (UTC)</a><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1256386598">.mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#F0F2F5;color:inherit}.mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#CCFFCC;color:inherit}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#14181F;color:inherit}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#003500;color:inherit}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#14181F;color:inherit}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#003500;color:inherit}}</style><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-08T08:24:00.000Z-Best_sources_for_this_article"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-08T08:24:00.000Z-Best_sources_for_this_article"></span> </p> <div style="margin-left:0"> <table class="mw-collapsible mw-archivedtalk mw-collapsed" style="color:inherit; background: transparent; text-align: left; border: 1px solid Silver; margin: 0.2em auto auto; width:100%; clear: both; padding: 1px;"> <tbody><tr> <th class="cot-header-other" style="; font-size:87%; padding:0.2em 0.3em; text-align:center;"><div style="font-size:115%;margin:0 4em"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-08T08:24:00.000Z-Best_sources_for_this_article-1"></span>extended discussion</div> </th></tr> <tr> <td style="color:inherit; border: solid 1px Silver; padding: 0.6em; background: var(--background-color-base, #fff);">[Izady] is treating the climate of Afrin as related to the climate of Zagros and not Aleppo. So, that deleted section is clearly used to push one POV and not the other: a greater Kurdistan taken by other countries. So nothing innocent in Izady's work. Now, can we agree on one thing: if these Kurdish inhabited regions are part of historical Kurdistan, then a historical source predating the establishment of Syria should be presented? If the criteria is: wherever Kurds live is a Kurdistan, then we will have Kurdistan in Damascus and Berlin. If Syria took parts of Kurdistan when it was established, then it is necessary to prove that these parts, all of them, were part of the historical region of Kurdistan before Syria took it (or France, whatever)- (even if they became parts of historical Kurdistan in 1900 is fine! just a historical source please, any!- ofcourse we are not talking if Kurds considered these regions parts of Kurdistan, because then we can also consider Cyprus part of Syria because Syrian nationalists claims it to be such).--<a href="/wiki/User:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User:Attar-Aram syria">Attar-Aram syria</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User talk:Attar-Aram syria">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-08T08:24:00.000Z-Best_sources_for_this_article-1" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:24, 8 December 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-08T08:24:00.000Z-Best_sources_for_this_article-1"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-08T08:24:00.000Z-Best_sources_for_this_article-1"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Paradise_Chronicle-2020-12-08T12:46:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-08T08:24:00.000Z"></span>The former edit could be removed for WP:NOTFORUM. If you can source a Kurdistan in Damascus and Berlin, ask at the talk pages there and present your ideas there. We are here at the Syrian Kurdistan article and have numerous sources for a Syrian Kurdistan. <b>This doesn't mean it is a recognized country</b>. But Kurds in Syria did not just come out of nowhere and the Kurds in Syria are also not due to mere coincidence living adjacent to Turkish and Iraqi Kurdistan. The historical Kurdistan argument has been discussed for weeks and the Kurd Dagh and Bohtan arguments against this were long ago presented. Fact is, there exists a Kurdish population in Syria adjacent to other parts of Kurdistan and in numerous sources it is known as Syrian Kurdistan.<a href="/wiki/User:Paradise_Chronicle" title="User:Paradise Chronicle">Paradise Chronicle</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paradise_Chronicle" title="User talk:Paradise Chronicle">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Paradise_Chronicle-2020-12-08T12:46:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-08T08:24:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:46, 8 December 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Paradise_Chronicle-2020-12-08T12:46:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-08T08:24:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Paradise_Chronicle-2020-12-08T12:46:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-08T08:24:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-08T12:53:00.000Z-Paradise_Chronicle-2020-12-08T12:46:00.000Z"></span>So you have no source. What you wrote is your own logical conclusion not supported by sources. It is my right to ask you to present your sources when you claim this is part of historical Kurdistan, so this isnt a forum indeed and my arguments are legetimate. If Kurdistan exist in Syria today, for which you are bringing sources, then this doesnt mean it existed before Syria was established. Some Kurdish nomads expanding from their homeland doesnt make the new regions a Kurdistan. Please present historic evidence and spare us the conclusions. If this is part of historical Kurdistan, then how hard it is to find a traveler or historian from the 19th century writing that he visited Afrin in Kurdistan? Cant this be found? then dont argue that this is part of the historical homeland of the Kurds.--<a href="/wiki/User:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User:Attar-Aram syria">Attar-Aram syria</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User talk:Attar-Aram syria">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-08T12:53:00.000Z-Paradise_Chronicle-2020-12-08T12:46:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:53, 8 December 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-08T12:53:00.000Z-Paradise_Chronicle-2020-12-08T12:46:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-08T12:53:00.000Z-Paradise_Chronicle-2020-12-08T12:46:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Paradise_Chronicle-2020-12-09T20:40:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-08T12:53:00.000Z"></span>If you are not satisfied with the sources provided for a "historic" Syrian Kurdistan, what can we do? A Syrian KurdistaN is shown in numerous sources, and we ought to go by them. Wikipedia is not Aramattarpedia, it is an encyclopedia in which the info provided has to be sourced if contested. And there exist numerous sources for a Syrian Kurdistan. If you claim that if a source focuses on or about a Syrian Kurdistan, it means there exists no Syrian Kurdistan it is rather an WP:OR.<a href="/wiki/User:Paradise_Chronicle" title="User:Paradise Chronicle">Paradise Chronicle</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paradise_Chronicle" title="User talk:Paradise Chronicle">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Paradise_Chronicle-2020-12-09T20:40:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-08T12:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:40, 9 December 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Paradise_Chronicle-2020-12-09T20:40:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-08T12:53:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Paradise_Chronicle-2020-12-09T20:40:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-08T12:53:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-09T23:20:00.000Z-Paradise_Chronicle-2020-12-09T20:40:00.000Z"></span>Are you heading in the direction of GP where you attack other editors? Its simple: historic means historical sources to support historicality. You have failed to provide this. All your sources do not confirm that before the establishment of Syria these regions were part of the historical cultural region of Kurdistan. Your inability to find historic sources is not on me to blame. So speak about Kurdistan as much as you want, but dont entertain ideas of historical native homelands without historical sources. NONE of the sources you provided contain a single cited historic document mentioning those regions as part of Kurdistan. Zero. Again, nomads migrate (in the case of Jazira), but it doesnt make the new regions part of a historic homeland. If you write that in 1918 Kurdistan was split by Syria and others, then provide a contemporary source to prove that in 1918 these regions were part of Kurdistan. Again, I know it is frustrating to you, but you cant defend your claims without adequate secondary sources based on actual primary sources (thats the first thing you learn when you start a research in academia).--<a href="/wiki/User:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User:Attar-Aram syria">Attar-Aram syria</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User talk:Attar-Aram syria">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-09T23:20:00.000Z-Paradise_Chronicle-2020-12-09T20:40:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:20, 9 December 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-09T23:20:00.000Z-Paradise_Chronicle-2020-12-09T20:40:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-09T23:20:00.000Z-Paradise_Chronicle-2020-12-09T20:40:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-10T12:24:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-09T23:20:00.000Z"></span>I am tired of recurring discussions whether a Syrian Kurdistan exists or not, while actually having a Wikipedia article Syrian Kurdistan with numerous academic sources actually showing and mentioning a Syrian Kurdistan. That there is an opposition to the existence of a Syrian Kurdistan belongs into a specific section but not into the lead as all what can be put there for a denial is OR. I call for an admin to craft an NPOV lead according to WP:Lead.<a href="/wiki/User:Paradise_Chronicle" title="User:Paradise Chronicle">Paradise Chronicle</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paradise_Chronicle" title="User talk:Paradise Chronicle">talk</a>) <dl><dd>It exist today: I was not arguing about this, but about the notion that it is the historic land of Kurds annexed by Syria, for which you were not able to provide a single historic source. As for the opposition, this will be decided by consensus, but thanks for expressing your opinion.--<a href="/wiki/User:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User:Attar-Aram syria">Attar-Aram syria</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User talk:Attar-Aram syria">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-10T12:24:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-09T23:20:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:24, 10 December 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-10T12:24:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-09T23:20:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-10T12:24:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2020-12-09T23:20:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> </td></tr></tbody></table></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Levivich-2020-12-09T07:27:00.000Z-Best_sources_for_this_article"></span>Somehow I forgot to put Cimino 2020 on my list, so I added it. Also, I added O'Leary even though it isn't a book, because it's a book review by a reputable scholar in a reputable journal. (Are there any other recent book reviews like it?) Re: the above, Tejel, Lescot, and Lowe I think are all reputable scholars as well and their works are usable. However, given the changes "on the ground", I think we should really lean on very recent scholarship: 2019-2020 preferably, post-2016 second choice, post-2011 third choice, and only use pre-war as necessary to fill in gaps. So I think, for example, for Tejel's views about Syrian Kurdistan, it's better to rely more on Tejel 2020 (in Cimino 2020) than Tejel 2009, although Tejel 2009 could be used to fill in gaps of material not covered by more recent sources. For this reason, even O'Leary's book review I think should be considered "second choice", because it was written in 2018 and reviews books written in 2016 or earlier. We want to tell our readers what Syrian Kurdistan is today, according to scholars. <a href="/wiki/User:Levivich" title="User:Levivich">Levivich</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Levivich" title="User talk:Levivich">harass</a></sup>/<sub><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Levivich" title="Special:Contributions/Levivich">hound</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Levivich-2020-12-09T07:27:00.000Z-Best_sources_for_this_article" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:27, 9 December 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Levivich-2020-12-09T07:27:00.000Z-Best_sources_for_this_article"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Levivich-2020-12-09T07:27:00.000Z-Best_sources_for_this_article"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Paradise_Chronicle-2020-12-10T11:15:00.000Z-Levivich-2020-12-09T07:27:00.000Z"></span>I don't know how to vote here, but if the sources here presented are included in the article I agree.<a href="/wiki/User:Paradise_Chronicle" title="User:Paradise Chronicle">Paradise Chronicle</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paradise_Chronicle" title="User talk:Paradise Chronicle">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Paradise_Chronicle-2020-12-10T11:15:00.000Z-Levivich-2020-12-09T07:27:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:15, 10 December 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Paradise_Chronicle-2020-12-10T11:15:00.000Z-Levivich-2020-12-09T07:27:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Paradise_Chronicle-2020-12-10T11:15:00.000Z-Levivich-2020-12-09T07:27:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="New_academic_information_revelation" data-mw-thread-id="h-New_academic_information_revelation-2021-02-12T19:51:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-New_academic_information_revelation-2021-02-12T19:51:00.000Z"></span>New academic information revelation<span data-mw-comment-end="h-New_academic_information_revelation-2021-02-12T19:51:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Supreme_Deliciousness-2021-02-12T19:51:00.000Z-New_academic_information_revelation"></span>I have found new academic information that talks about Kurdish nationalists influencing scholars: </p><p>"<b>Kurdish nationalists in the diaspora</b>, as long-distance nationalist actors, have played a crucial role in the development of Kurdish nationalism both inside and outside the region. They strongly hold on to a Kurdish identity and <b>promote the territoriality of this unified nation.</b> In line with the contemporary international normative framework, they use the rhetoric of suffering, the incidents of human rights abuses and their right to statehood <b>to influence</b> the way host states, other states, international organizations, <b>scholars</b>, journalists and the international media <b>perceive their case</b> and the actions of their home states. <b>They promote the idea that Kurdistan is one country artificially divided among regional states</b> and that this dividedness is the source of Kurdish suffering." </p><p>Kaya, Zeynep N. (2020). Mapping Kurdistan: Territory, Self-Determination and Nationalism. Cambridge University p 183. </p><p><br/> This information is of extreme importance to take into consideration because we have talked a lot here about the importance of academic scholars (and I agree) and here have an academic scholar that straight out says that Kurdish nationalists are promoting "the territoriality of this unified nation" and influencing the way scholars perceive their case.--<a href="/wiki/User:Supreme_Deliciousness" title="User:Supreme Deliciousness">Supreme Deliciousness</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Supreme_Deliciousness" title="User talk:Supreme Deliciousness">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Supreme_Deliciousness-2021-02-12T19:51:00.000Z-New_academic_information_revelation" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:51, 12 February 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Supreme_Deliciousness-2021-02-12T19:51:00.000Z-New_academic_information_revelation"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Supreme_Deliciousness-2021-02-12T19:51:00.000Z-New_academic_information_revelation"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Levivich-2021-02-12T20:57:00.000Z-Supreme_Deliciousness-2021-02-12T19:51:00.000Z"></span>This "new academic information", Kaya 2020, is on the <a href="#Best_sources_for_this_article">#Best sources for this article</a> list at the top of this page from two months ago. Last month, you <a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/999591493" title="Special:Diff/999591493">added this source to the article</a>. Both the content you added to the article, and the content you're quoting above, is about "Kurdish nationalists" promoting "the idea that Kurdistan is one country artificially divided". That is not new: everyone knows that Kurdish nationalists believe and promote a single, unified, sovereign Kurdistan. I mean, every book about Kurdistan says that. And every book about <i>Syrian</i> Kurdistan points out that many if not most Syrian Kurds do not believe Syrian Kurdistan should be part of a Kurdistan nation (although a significant number of others do believe that). Indeed, this is one of the things that Syrian Kurds have been fighting with each other, and with non-Syrian Kurds, about... and this has been going on for like a century, since the partition of Ottoman Kurdistan in World War I, going back to <a href="/wiki/Xoybun" class="mw-redirect" title="Xoybun">Xoybun</a> if not before that. In any event, this is all subject matter for the article <a href="/wiki/Kurdistan" title="Kurdistan">Kurdistan</a> and <a href="/wiki/Kurdish_nationalism" title="Kurdish nationalism">Kurdish nationalism</a>, more-so than <a href="/wiki/Syrian_Kurdistan" title="Syrian Kurdistan">Syrian Kurdistan</a>. SK should have content about the relationship between SK and Kurdish nationalism, but the details of Kurdish nationalism should be documenting in other articles not SK. <a href="/wiki/User:Levivich" title="User:Levivich">Levivich</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Levivich" title="User talk:Levivich">harass</a></sup>/<sub><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Levivich" title="Special:Contributions/Levivich">hound</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Levivich-2021-02-12T20:57:00.000Z-Supreme_Deliciousness-2021-02-12T19:51:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:57, 12 February 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Levivich-2021-02-12T20:57:00.000Z-Supreme_Deliciousness-2021-02-12T19:51:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Levivich-2021-02-12T20:57:00.000Z-Supreme_Deliciousness-2021-02-12T19:51:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Supreme_Deliciousness-2021-02-14T16:44:00.000Z-Levivich-2021-02-12T20:57:00.000Z"></span>The source isn't new but the information I extracted from it and added above about Kurdish nationalists influence on scholars is completely new. Levivich, you have been proclaiming and proclaiming both here and at the Arb case how awful it was that some editors were saying that some scholars were following a Kurdish perspective. You used this and wanted those editors banned. And here we have an academic scholar that straight out says that Kurdish nationalists have an "influence" on how scholars "perceive their case". Doesn't that tell you something?</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Zeynep also says "They promote the idea that Kurdistan is one country artificially divided among regional states"... an "idea" huh... where is this reflected in the lead of SK? The lead that you created is undisputedly saying that SK is: "one of the four "Lesser Kurdistans" that comprise "Greater Kurdistan"" and presenting this to the reader as a fact... why aren't we following this academic scholar Levivich?--<a href="/wiki/User:Supreme_Deliciousness" title="User:Supreme Deliciousness">Supreme Deliciousness</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Supreme_Deliciousness" title="User talk:Supreme Deliciousness">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Supreme_Deliciousness-2021-02-14T16:44:00.000Z-Levivich-2021-02-12T20:57:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:44, 14 February 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Supreme_Deliciousness-2021-02-14T16:44:00.000Z-Levivich-2021-02-12T20:57:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Supreme_Deliciousness-2021-02-14T16:44:00.000Z-Levivich-2021-02-12T20:57:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="temporary_full_protection" data-mw-thread-id="h-temporary_full_protection-2021-02-21T21:59:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-temporary_full_protection-2021-02-21T21:59:00.000Z"></span>temporary full protection<span data-mw-comment-end="h-temporary_full_protection-2021-02-21T21:59:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Valereee-2021-02-21T21:59:00.000Z-temporary_full_protection"></span>Editors who are about to be topic-banned or banned are trying to get in the last word. I've full-protected for two days, but if any other admin wants to change this, I have no objection. I note that w/re content disputes I've recently declared myself involved here. <a href="/wiki/User:Valereee" title="User:Valereee">—valereee</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Valereee" title="User talk:Valereee">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Valereee-2021-02-21T21:59:00.000Z-temporary_full_protection" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:59, 21 February 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Valereee-2021-02-21T21:59:00.000Z-temporary_full_protection"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Valereee-2021-02-21T21:59:00.000Z-temporary_full_protection"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="sourcing_restriction_removed" data-mw-thread-id="h-sourcing_restriction_removed-2021-02-23T15:55:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-sourcing_restriction_removed-2021-02-23T15:55:00.000Z"></span>sourcing restriction removed<span data-mw-comment-end="h-sourcing_restriction_removed-2021-02-23T15:55:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Valereee-2021-02-23T15:55:00.000Z-sourcing_restriction_removed"></span>Removing restriction as with the arbcom case closed, I hope this will no longer be needed. <a href="/wiki/User:Valereee" title="User:Valereee">—valereee</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Valereee" title="User talk:Valereee">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Valereee-2021-02-23T15:55:00.000Z-sourcing_restriction_removed" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:55, 23 February 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Valereee-2021-02-23T15:55:00.000Z-sourcing_restriction_removed"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Valereee-2021-02-23T15:55:00.000Z-sourcing_restriction_removed"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="New_era?" data-mw-thread-id="h-New_era?-2021-02-23T22:03:00.000Z"><span id="New_era.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-New_era?-2021-02-23T22:03:00.000Z"></span>New era?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-New_era?-2021-02-23T22:03:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-02-23T22:03:00.000Z-New_era?"></span>The case is closed. I believe that we can work together. I have already shown that I prefer compromise and historical accuracy, and I will assume good faith on the part of other editors, and hope that they will do the same. I reverted the banned user GPinkerton additions that were inserted while he had no right to edit this article, yet I can recognize that these edits have good material in them, just not in the confrontational one-sided language of the said user. So, if what he wrote is important for this article, it can be discussed here (so that the language will be more neutral for example). Cheers.--<a href="/wiki/User:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User:Attar-Aram syria">Attar-Aram syria</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User talk:Attar-Aram syria">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-02-23T22:03:00.000Z-New_era?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:03, 23 February 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-02-23T22:03:00.000Z-New_era?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-02-23T22:03:00.000Z-New_era?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Paradise_Chronicle-2021-02-23T23:10:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-02-23T22:03:00.000Z"></span>Which terms and words would you oppose specifically? The points of the Arab cordon policy are sure an important and informative expansion. And Hafez al Assad is portrayed rather in a good way as the one who abandoned the Arab Cordon policy.</dd> <dd>My suggestions are:</dd></dl> <ul><li>Illegally infiltrating => illegally immigrated or => immigrated?</li> <li>Destroy its Arab character => dilute Arab culture?<a href="/wiki/User:Paradise_Chronicle" title="User:Paradise Chronicle">Paradise Chronicle</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paradise_Chronicle" title="User talk:Paradise Chronicle">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Paradise_Chronicle-2021-02-23T23:10:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-02-23T22:03:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:10, 23 February 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Paradise_Chronicle-2021-02-23T23:10:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-02-23T22:03:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Paradise_Chronicle-2021-02-23T23:10:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-02-23T22:03:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-02-24T03:46:00.000Z-New_era?"></span>Well, it is important that a banned user does not force his way. Imagine if I would introduce a text written by the recently t-banned users? GPinkerton will not have it his way as he had no right to write anything for this article after he was t-banned. So ofcourse the Arab-Cordon policy is important to mention (and Assad portrayed positively is not important), but there are those notes: </p><p>1-Your suggestions are changing direct quotes from a book, fine by me, just remove the quotation signs, though these words are used to describe what the government thought, not facts, so I dont see the merits, but fine. </p><p>2-It seem that the banned user copied this: Nazdar, Mustafa (1993) [1978]. "The Kurds in Syria". In Chaliand, Gérard (ed.). Les Kurdes et le Kurdistan. I do not mind the source, but a single source for several paragraphs with no other point of views? Thats not really NPOV, but since I currently have no interest in doing any research for this article, I wont object, but Nazdar's words should be qualified when he does not list his primary sources (as we all know, we dont use primary sources, but secondary source, i.e. what scholars write based on primary sources. When Nazdar does not mention his primary source, then the words are his and should be presented as his view or opinion not facts). Hence, for example: "In 1967, the land of the Kurds in al-Jazira Province was nationalized" should be changed. It is claiming that Kurds lost their lands in al-Jazira province! is this backed by any actual data? Do Kurds not own lands anymore? I checked the book and no source is given for such a claim. In reality, what happened in 1968 was part of a policy that affected the entirety of Syria, connected to the socialist policies of the government (based on the Soviet model). As can be read <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://books.google.com/books?id=qmTSTOHNIiYC&pg=PA250">here</a>. Why is such background not given? Lands were not taken from simple Kurds but from feudal land owners (Arabs and Kurds) and redistributed on the farmers. (Ofcourse, maybe Arab farmers were more privileged, and got more land redistributed to them, but this needs sourcing) </p><p>3-Why are the Hilal's steps given such a prominent position! Such a degenerate plan was never officially adopted, nor implemented. Kurds did face oppression, but that plan was not issued by the government nor adopted by it and there is no source proving otherwise. Mohamed Talab Hilal said what he said, but he was not a policy maker, and the the banned user's version portray him otherwise, thus demonizing the whole government as Nazis (thats the only word I can think of). I would see these steps removed from the article (move them to an article about Syrian racism against Kurds?). If anyone (scholar) think that this plan influenced Syrian strategy against the Kurds, then that scholar should be mentioned by name. </p><p>4-The banned user, when mentioning the Kurdish Democratic Party of Syria wrote that the objective was not the liberation of Syrian Kurdistan. This should be "liberation" as it is not a fact but the view of many Kurdish nationalists (and Kurds- everyone have to right to think what they want). In reality, Syrian never occupied a Kurdistan, and no state nor international organization recognize a Syrian occupation of Kurdistan that should be ended and Kurdistan liberated. </p><p>Do you think this is reasonable?--<a href="/wiki/User:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User:Attar-Aram syria">Attar-Aram syria</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User talk:Attar-Aram syria">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-02-24T03:46:00.000Z-New_era?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:46, 24 February 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-02-24T03:46:00.000Z-New_era?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-02-24T03:46:00.000Z-New_era?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Paradise_Chronicle-2021-02-26T01:39:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-02-24T03:46:00.000Z"></span>Mohammed Taleeb Hilal influenced The Arab Belt policy rather strongly and was a rather high official of Majority Kurdish areas in Syria. His views are described in several books by Michael Gunter, Jordi Tejel, Amir Hassanpoor, Sebastian Maisel, etc. Several mention the 12 points, and some even specially one by one. Hilals booklet is actually quite well known if you google his name and Kurds in Syria. The <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.hrw.org/reports/1996/Syria.htm">HRW</a> and the UN also describe the Arab Belt policy or Hilals 12 points. Currently it is only mentioned at "see also". 1968 (or 1967?) is not as important to me, it is just one phrase. The ideas of Hilal influenced the Arab Belt policy which was implemented in 1973. Sebastian Maisel even mentions it was formally accepted, but other sources do not mention this, so I'd just mention Hilal influenced the Syrian politics on the Kurds.<a href="/wiki/User:Paradise_Chronicle" title="User:Paradise Chronicle">Paradise Chronicle</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paradise_Chronicle" title="User talk:Paradise Chronicle">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Paradise_Chronicle-2021-02-26T01:39:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-02-24T03:46:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:39, 26 February 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Paradise_Chronicle-2021-02-26T01:39:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-02-24T03:46:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Paradise_Chronicle-2021-02-26T01:39:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-02-24T03:46:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Paradise_Chronicle-2021-02-26T09:34:00.000Z-Paradise_Chronicle-2021-02-26T01:39:00.000Z"></span>Sources where to read can be found <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://stj-sy.org/uploads/pdf_files/Syrian%20Citizenship%20Disappeared%20-%20How%20the%201962%20Census%20destroyed%20stateless%20Kurds’%20lives%20and%20identities_0.pdf">here</a>, the <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://pure.fak.dk/files/7248264/The_Kurds_of_Syria.pdf">Danish defense college</a> the <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://lib.ohchr.org/HRBodies/UPR/Documents/session12/SY/HIC-HabitatInternationalCoalition-eng.pdf">UN agency OHCHR</a> even mentions the twelve points each, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.cairn.info/revue-outre-terre1-2006-1-page-217.htm">here</a> about his prominent influence on the Kurdish politics of Syria, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/108501/1/Kurdish_representation_and_civil_movements_in_syria_english.pdf">here</a> also with the 12 points by the London School of Economics (December 2020) pp. 4-5. But I agree that the twelve points might bet better mentioned specifically at the Arab Belt article in the background section. Here there could just be mentioned "Mohammed Taleeb Hilal influenced the Syrian Politics towards the Kurds through the twelve points, which included resettlement, oppression of the Kurdish culture etc. and providing financial aid, arable land and weapons to the Arabs in territory before inhabited by the Kurds with the laws and decrees number ...“ etc. Every phrase included would have additional sources to the ones provided by GPinkerton and be copy edited (where appropriate).<a href="/wiki/User:Paradise_Chronicle" title="User:Paradise Chronicle">Paradise Chronicle</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paradise_Chronicle" title="User talk:Paradise Chronicle">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Paradise_Chronicle-2021-02-26T09:34:00.000Z-Paradise_Chronicle-2021-02-26T01:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:34, 26 February 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Paradise_Chronicle-2021-02-26T09:34:00.000Z-Paradise_Chronicle-2021-02-26T01:39:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Paradise_Chronicle-2021-02-26T09:34:00.000Z-Paradise_Chronicle-2021-02-26T01:39:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-02-28T03:59:00.000Z-New_era?"></span>Yes, I did not mention anything about how well known his views are, but I asked whether anyone has evidence that these views affected the policy? Lets agree (which is a fact that does not need agreeying) that scholars do not create facts, and unless they have evidence (primary source) then their opinions and arguments, even if they all agree on one, remain their hypotheses. So, do Sebastian Maisel have evidence? No. In reality, there is not a single piece of evidence that his plan was adopted or influenced Syrian policy (actual concrete evidence, such as a leaked official edict...etc) So, a hypothesis should be presented as a hypothesis. This Hilal thing does not belong here, or at best, it should be noted that it is just scholars guessing. As for the banned user, his text should absolutely stay out. He had no right writing it. You can either write a new section, or let me do that- Ofcourse, since this article is now strictly supervised, its better to write a disputed content here and achieve consensus before moving it to the article (apply to both you and me and anyone else).--<a href="/wiki/User:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User:Attar-Aram syria">Attar-Aram syria</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User talk:Attar-Aram syria">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-02-28T03:59:00.000Z-New_era?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:59, 28 February 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-02-28T03:59:00.000Z-New_era?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-02-28T03:59:00.000Z-New_era?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Paradise_Chronicle-2021-03-05T23:38:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-02-28T03:59:00.000Z"></span>To start with: Following ... "The <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/japanese-journal-of-political-science/article/kurdish-regional-selfrule-administration-in-syria-a-new-model-of-statehood-and-its-status-in-international-law-compared-to-the-kurdistan-regional-government-krg-in-iraq/E27336DA905763412D42038E476BBE61">Arab belt policy was applied between 1973</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/18/world/middleeast/kurds-remain-on-sideline-in-syrias-uprising.html">2nd source</a> and 1976 which included the arabization of a <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.hrw.org/reports/1996/Syria.htm">strip along the Syrian Turkish border between Ras al Ayn and Al Malikiya</a> and the <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.hrw.org/reports/1996/Syria.htm">establishment of dozens of Arab villages</a>, while land owned by Kurds was expropriated <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/519cab2c4.pdf">here an other source on the subject</a>. More sources from books can provided once the Arab belt is included.<a href="/wiki/User:Paradise_Chronicle" title="User:Paradise Chronicle">Paradise Chronicle</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paradise_Chronicle" title="User talk:Paradise Chronicle">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Paradise_Chronicle-2021-03-05T23:38:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-02-28T03:59:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:38, 5 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Paradise_Chronicle-2021-03-05T23:38:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-02-28T03:59:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Paradise_Chronicle-2021-03-05T23:38:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-02-28T03:59:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-06T04:37:00.000Z-Paradise_Chronicle-2021-03-05T23:38:00.000Z"></span>Looks okay, and if you are keen on mentioning Hilal, then by all means do: just qualify it and dont present the notion that it affected the policy of the government as a fact (you can mention his "study" and then mention that many scholars suggest it affected the policy).--<a href="/wiki/User:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User:Attar-Aram syria">Attar-Aram syria</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User talk:Attar-Aram syria">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-06T04:37:00.000Z-Paradise_Chronicle-2021-03-05T23:38:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:37, 6 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-06T04:37:00.000Z-Paradise_Chronicle-2021-03-05T23:38:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-06T04:37:00.000Z-Paradise_Chronicle-2021-03-05T23:38:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Remarks" data-mw-thread-id="h-Remarks-2021-03-12T12:53:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Remarks-2021-03-12T12:53:00.000Z"></span>Remarks<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Remarks-2021-03-12T12:53:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LouisAragon-2021-03-12T12:53:00.000Z-Remarks"></span>I'm planning to do a review of the body of the article and post my remarks here on the talk page. </p> <ul><li>"<i>Kurds, the world's largest stateless ethnic group, are a nomadic people inhabiting a mountainous region known as Kurdistan that spans parts of several sovereign states in Asia, primarily Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran.[4]"</i> -- I suggest changing "mountainous region" to "mountainous geo-cultural region" (same as in the lede of <a href="/wiki/Kurdistan" title="Kurdistan">Kurdistan</a>).</li> <li>"<i>Although Kurdish origins and migration remain the subject of scholarly investigation and controversy, and several different groups throughout history have lived in Kurdistan, Kurds are traditionally considered to have descended from Indo-European tribes migrating westward toward Iran in the middle of the second millennium BCE.[5]"</i> -- do the sources specifically state "Indo-European" or "Iranian" or "Indo-Iranian"?</li> <li>"<i>In antiquity, Kurdistan was ruled, in turn, by the Median, Greek, Roman, and Persian empires.[6]"</i> -- Median, Greek, Roman, and Persian empires... in that order? Ladies and gentlemen, really, History 101; the Greek and Roman empires <u>were not</u> successors of the Medes, and the Persian Achaemenids <u>were not</u> successors of the Romans. This is implied when you write "in turn". Also, why are the Semitic-speaking polities and other Indo-European polities ommitted, amongst others? This retroactive <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:POINT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:POINT">WP:POINT</a> sentence, bordering <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR">WP:OR</a>, is problematic IMO, but if you're gonna keep it, at least do it "correctly".</li> <li>"<i>After the advent of Islam in the 7th century CE, Kurdish tribes in Upper Mesopotamia and western Iran resisted advancing Muslim armies, but ultimately most Kurds converted to the Shafi'ite school of Sunni Islam.[7]"</i> -- "Kurd" in that era referred to Iranian nomads, per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a>. This is a no-brainer. This verifiable fact should be added in the form of a note. Also, "advancing Muslim armies" is linked to <a href="/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_the_Levant" title="Muslim conquest of the Levant">Muslim conquest of the Levant</a>. Western Iran was/is not part of the Levant. I suggest swapping "Muslim conquest of the Levant" with <a href="/wiki/Early_Muslim_conquests" title="Early Muslim conquests">Early Muslim conquests</a>.</li> <li>"<i>Kurdish cultural and political power re-emerged over the next three centuries, as Kurds in Kurdistan lived semi-autonomously within the Islamic caliphates.[8]"</i> -- How can it have <b>re</b>-emerged when there wasn't a notion of a Kurdish ethnos at the time? I see Izady has been cited who is considered to be a problematic source for Kurdish topics.</li></ul> <p>More later. - <a href="/wiki/User:LouisAragon" title="User:LouisAragon">LouisAragon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LouisAragon" title="User talk:LouisAragon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-LouisAragon-2021-03-12T12:53:00.000Z-Remarks" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:53, 12 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LouisAragon-2021-03-12T12:53:00.000Z-Remarks"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LouisAragon-2021-03-12T12:53:00.000Z-Remarks"></span> </p><p><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T15:51:00.000Z-Remarks"></span>Comment</b>:I also have some problems with this section. This section should be about the history of those three regions inhabited today by Kurds not about Kurdistan in general. Yet, it goes into the history of Kurds in Iran and other states. The scope of this article should really be clearly defined. Also, as discussed earlier, Izady is no reliable source for Kurds as he is engaged in pseudo-history (<a href="/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan/Archive_2#Mehrdad_Izady" title="Talk:Syrian Kurdistan/Archive 2">detailed here</a>.--<a href="/wiki/User:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User:Attar-Aram syria">Attar-Aram syria</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User talk:Attar-Aram syria">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T15:51:00.000Z-Remarks" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:51, 12 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T15:51:00.000Z-Remarks"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T15:51:00.000Z-Remarks"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Levivich-2021-03-12T16:31:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T15:51:00.000Z"></span>Generally speaking I agree there is a bit too much about Kurdistan in general (that is, "greater Kurdistan") in this article, and it could be trimmed or rearranged to focus more on Syrian Kurdistan in particular. However, I'm not sure those five quoted passages are examples of this. All of those passages are sourced to multiple sources, all about Syrian Kurdistan. For example: #1, "mountainous region", not "geo-cultural region" (I do not understand what a "geo-cultural region" is... "region" means an area of land; Kurdistan is an area of land). #2: Indo-European. #3: The sentence doesn't say Greek, Roman, or Persian were successors of Median, but they do say that Kurdistan was ruled or conquered by those empires, in that order. Semitic-speaking polities and other Indo-European polities aren't "omitted", they just aren't in the sources cited. #4: The sources aren't talking about "Iranian nomads", they're talking about "Kurdish tribes in Upper Mesopotamia". It's just per the sources cited. #5: "Re-emerged" is per the sources cited (which say that there was a notion of a Kurdish ethnos at the time, and for millennia prior to 7th c. CE). As for Izady, the reliability of his work should be discussed at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RSN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RSN">WP:RSN</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Levivich" title="User:Levivich">Levivich</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Levivich" title="User talk:Levivich">harass</a></sup>/<sub><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Levivich" title="Special:Contributions/Levivich">hound</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Levivich-2021-03-12T16:31:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T15:51:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:31, 12 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Levivich-2021-03-12T16:31:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T15:51:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Levivich-2021-03-12T16:31:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T15:51:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Levivich-2021-03-12T16:46:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T15:51:00.000Z"></span>Also I'll just note that the sources cited for those passages have links in the citations to Google books previews, which should make verification easy. <a href="/wiki/User:Levivich" title="User:Levivich">Levivich</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Levivich" title="User talk:Levivich">harass</a></sup>/<sub><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Levivich" title="Special:Contributions/Levivich">hound</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Levivich-2021-03-12T16:46:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T15:51:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:46, 12 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Levivich-2021-03-12T16:46:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T15:51:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Levivich-2021-03-12T16:46:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T15:51:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T18:36:00.000Z-Levivich-2021-03-12T16:46:00.000Z"></span>Did you read the summary in the link I provided regarding Izady? Its a work of nationalistic history that has been criticized by many scholars and does not need some Wikipedia editors to argue about it and decide if it is reliable or not. As for the sources, maybe other sources should be consulted. A Kurdish ethnos existing in the seventh century is not something taken for granted just like "Arab" may have not indicated an ethnos but nomads before the Hellenistic period and even after.--<a href="/wiki/User:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User:Attar-Aram syria">Attar-Aram syria</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User talk:Attar-Aram syria">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T18:36:00.000Z-Levivich-2021-03-12T16:46:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:36, 12 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T18:36:00.000Z-Levivich-2021-03-12T16:46:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T18:36:00.000Z-Levivich-2021-03-12T16:46:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Levivich-2021-03-12T18:57:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T18:36:00.000Z"></span>The discussion about Izady in talk page archive 2 that you linked to was between you and two other editors, and the other two are now banned. Izady is cited as a source by many other reliable academic sources, including, I think, <i>most</i> of the sources currently in the article. Izady is also published by highly reputable academic publishers like Routledge. So <i>at least</i> at first glance, Izady qualifies as an RS, and if anyone wants to challenge that, it should be done by starting a discussion at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RSN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RSN">WP:RSN</a>. If consensus at RSN is that Izady isn't a reliable source for this article, then we can take him out. If there's an RSN discussion, I'd point out that the source at issue is a book about Kurds by a wiki-notable (<a href="/wiki/Mehrdad_Izady" title="Mehrdad Izady">Mehrdad Izady</a>) <a href="/wiki/Kurdology" title="Kurdology">Kurdologist</a> published by <a href="/wiki/Routledge" title="Routledge">Routledge</a> and cited by other Kurdologists in works published by other academic publishers (such as the sources in this article, such as Maisel). I don't know if you think an RSN thread is worth it—up to you—but I'll also note that Izady is not cited <i>alone</i> for anything in the article currently; so even removing Izady as source shouldn't require any change to the prose. (Not that I'm opposed to changing the prose, I just don't see the connection between "Izady is a bad source" and anything currently written in the article.) As for consulting other sources: absolutely, as always. <a href="/wiki/User:Levivich" title="User:Levivich">Levivich</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Levivich" title="User talk:Levivich">harass</a></sup>/<sub><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Levivich" title="Special:Contributions/Levivich">hound</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Levivich-2021-03-12T18:57:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T18:36:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:57, 12 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Levivich-2021-03-12T18:57:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T18:36:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Levivich-2021-03-12T18:57:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T18:36:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T19:13:00.000Z-Levivich-2021-03-12T18:57:00.000Z"></span>I didnt refer to my discussion, but the scholarly analysis of that work. You are telling me that you believe Izady is reliable because many sources cite him? The scholar that "traces the existence of Kurdish culture back more than 50,000 years, to include the Neanderthal findings in the Shanidar caves" is reliable?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. An RSN thread will be visited by editors like us, so whats the point? its not like we are going to an academic board.--<a href="/wiki/User:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User:Attar-Aram syria">Attar-Aram syria</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User talk:Attar-Aram syria">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T19:13:00.000Z-Levivich-2021-03-12T18:57:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:13, 12 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T19:13:00.000Z-Levivich-2021-03-12T18:57:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T19:13:00.000Z-Levivich-2021-03-12T18:57:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T19:23:00.000Z-Levivich-2021-03-12T18:57:00.000Z"></span>Anyways, I started a thread to discuss this valuable source written by a very impartial scholar about the Kurdish Neandertals: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Mehrdad_Izady_for_Kurdish_issues" title="Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard">Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Mehrdad_Izady_for_Kurdish_issues</a>.--<a href="/wiki/User:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User:Attar-Aram syria">Attar-Aram syria</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User talk:Attar-Aram syria">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T19:23:00.000Z-Levivich-2021-03-12T18:57:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:23, 12 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T19:23:00.000Z-Levivich-2021-03-12T18:57:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T19:23:00.000Z-Levivich-2021-03-12T18:57:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T19:27:00.000Z-Levivich-2021-03-12T18:57:00.000Z"></span>Another note: Im not asking to change the prose, just remove Izady as he is an example of bad scholarship where an academic uses his status to push theories that support nationalistic myths.--<a href="/wiki/User:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User:Attar-Aram syria">Attar-Aram syria</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Attar-Aram_syria" title="User talk:Attar-Aram syria">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T19:27:00.000Z-Levivich-2021-03-12T18:57:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:27, 12 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T19:27:00.000Z-Levivich-2021-03-12T18:57:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T19:27:00.000Z-Levivich-2021-03-12T18:57:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Levivich-2021-03-12T19:40:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T19:27:00.000Z"></span>OK thanks for starting the RSN thread, I'll reply about Izady there. <a href="/wiki/User:Levivich" title="User:Levivich">Levivich</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Levivich" title="User talk:Levivich">harass</a></sup>/<sub><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Levivich" title="Special:Contributions/Levivich">hound</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Levivich-2021-03-12T19:40:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T19:27:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:40, 12 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Levivich-2021-03-12T19:40:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T19:27:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Levivich-2021-03-12T19:40:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T19:27:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Levivich-2021-03-13T18:54:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T19:27:00.000Z"></span>OK no objection here to removing Izady based on the RSN thread. <a href="/wiki/User:Levivich" title="User:Levivich">Levivich</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Levivich" title="User talk:Levivich">harass</a></sup>/<sub><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Levivich" title="Special:Contributions/Levivich">hound</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#c-Levivich-2021-03-13T18:54:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T19:27:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:54, 13 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Levivich-2021-03-13T18:54:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T19:27:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Levivich-2021-03-13T18:54:00.000Z-Attar-Aram_syria-2021-03-12T19:27:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1&useformat=desktop" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan&oldid=1011945274">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan&oldid=1011945274</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-normal-catlinks" class="mw-normal-catlinks"><a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">Categories</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_articles_under_general_sanctions" title="Category:Wikipedia articles under general 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