CINXE.COM

<?xml version="1.0"?> <feed xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" xml:lang="en"> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=D&feedformat=atom</id> <title>RationalWiki - User contributions [en]</title> <link rel="self" type="application/atom+xml" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=D&feedformat=atom"/> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/D"/> <updated>2025-03-04T16:29:15Z</updated> <subtitle>User contributions</subtitle> <generator>MediaWiki 1.35.6</generator> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2227391</id> <title>RationalWiki:Chicken coop</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2227391"/> <updated>2020-09-17T12:10:09Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Statement by Dysk */ <hr /> <div>__NEWSECTIONLINK__{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}[[Category:RationalWiki]][[Category:RationalWiki moderation]][[Category:Turdblossoms]] [[Category:Shit articles]] {{hatnote|Not to be confused with the [[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation|moderator noticeboard]].}} {{talkpage |search=yes}} {{shortcut|RW:CC|RW:COOP}} &lt;!-- {{/status|}} --&gt; {{/status|3}} The '''chicken coop''' is for the avoidance, containment and resolution of cases of [[Headless Chicken Mode]] (HCM). Despite the name, this tends to be serious business. This page can be used for reporting cases of administrative abuse (abuse of [[RationalWiki:Sysop guide|sysop]] or [[RationalWiki:Moderators|moderator]] abilities such as blocking, page deletion, or user rights management), general abuse (such as [[troll]]ing, [[wandalism]], and personal attacks), and '''conflicts which cannot be solved through normal talk page discussion''' (such as long-standing edit wars or article content disputes). Please be specific and include links to any relevant discussions, page edits or logs. All editors are welcome to comment on the cases raised here, and to try to reach a consensus on any action to be taken. If no consensus can be reached, and the HCM seems to be escalating, moderators are expected to take some action. However, any serious or permanent solution, such as removal of rights or lengthy ban, requires a community vote here according to the guidelines laid out in our [[RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Voting|Community Standards]]. '''Please''' try to resolve conflicts directly through discussion on other editor's talk pages '''before''' reporting them. It's better to just talk to someone rather than try to drag their name through the mud. If the issue is not conflict resolution, but concerns RationalWiki policies, suggested changes to how things work around here, or similar matters of principle, please post '''[[RationalWiki talk:Community Standards|on the Community Standards talk page]] instead. When presenting a case here, be sure to include ''whom'' you are accusing, what exactly you are accusing them ''of'', some hard ''evidence'', and a brief ''explanation''. Since the sole purpose of the Coop is to resolve these disputes, don't post unrelated or more generalized complaints here — if you do, your posts will be moved off the page. Any vote started within 48 hours of filing will be deleted and you will be blocked. Use {{tl|CoopNotice}} to inform the user in question, so that they have a chance to discuss their actions here. As a final note, if you think this page is a good tactic to apply in gaming the mob into doing your bidding, you may be shocked to see your post archived ''quite'' swiftly. == Ban Smith == I propose to formally ban the user known as &quot;Smith&quot; for the offenses of: # Doxing me and at least 3 other members of this site on various talk pages here and creating at least 2 libellous attack pages on editors here. # Doxing members of this site on [[Kiwi Farms]] and Reddit and elsewhere. # Attempting to bulk delete pages here in [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?oldid=2040594 connection with] a lawsuit and causing disruption in the process along with arguably shifting the legal responsibility for those pages onto the site users who voted to keep them. # Deliberately introducing defamatory material to multiple pages as part of a [http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2019/3393.html dispute] with some crank. # Using this site to carry out a flame war with [[Mikemikev]] and [[Abd]] for several years including impersonating both on several occasions. # Vandalism and trolling with &quot;throwaway&quot; accounts to disrupt site processes on numerous occasions. I'm not going to specify any evidence because the most relevant evidence is suppressed and everyone with suppression access is well aware of the situation already. Just remember voting starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Discussion === :so we are being asked to vote to ban a user few of us actually know who they are with no evidence provided? another coop another farce. [[User:AMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] ([[User talk:AMassiveGay|talk]]) 12:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yes exactly that. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::It's honestly difficult to get the details clear, since a lot was suppressed. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus That said, this discussion remains] as well as the AfD Ze has linked. It appears to be tied to the [[Mikemikev]]/[[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]] drama, the former of whom got banned from RW for... what should frankly be obvious reasons (just read his page lol). I'll be frank, I won't vote in the Smith stuff since I don't know this particular drama shitstorm surrounding those two, but as far as I'm concerned, there is not exactly a great loss to the wiki should they remain gone? -Also just to quickly clarify, this coop isn't about nobs lol-. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Not banning him would kinda send the message that doxing is ok here so my vote is settled already. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Smith's only real activity here was and is meant to further internet grudges and escalate drama. It's caused problems on more than one occasion. Not an editor we need to keep around. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 13:21, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Funny comment considering I've added the most articles of any editor to RationalWiki. Most the people criticising me instead don't add constructive content but use this wiki as a chat-room such as Saloon bar (a place I've virtually never visited).[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: I've never doxed, impersonated or defamed anyone, notice as well no evidence is ever presented for these wild allegations. Ze has engaged in a gaslighting campaign against me for some time and nothing they post about me is accurate. They link to the preliminary judgement ''Kirkegaard v Smith [2019] EWHC 3393 (QB)'' but that has nothing to do with RationalWiki. I was never sued for comments I made on this wiki so claims I have posted libel on this wiki are blatantly false. And I won the lawsuit - Kirkegaard discontinued in May and has to pay my legal fees as the losing party. The preliminary judgement concerned fact versus opinion and ruled my comments were &quot;expressions of opinion and are defamatory&quot; ''however'' the judge pointed out &quot;For the avoidance of doubt, I am not deciding the question of serious harm under s 1 of the Defamation Act 2013.&quot; (the preliminary was to determine whether my comments were fact or opinion not the question of serious harm and I won it on the basis I was arguing my comments were opinions while Kirkegaard incorrectly said they were facts and he was criticised by the judge for taking my comments out of context). Had it gone to full trial or summary judgement (I filed for) a judge would have decided if my comments were either honest opinion (my legal defence) or defamation based on the serious harm question. Kirkegaard discontinued the lawsuit shortly before the judge was going to decide this knowing he/she would almost certainly have ruled my opinions were honestly held rather than defamation. So did I defame him? No. It' s highly misleading to say I did since my comments were upheld as honest opinion which provides a legal defence to defamation (other than truth) and he discontinued the lawsuit knowing the judge in the summary judgement would have ruled my comments did not cause him serious harm. Of course, I don't expect Ze (formerly EK) or Dysk (aka D) to acknowledge this and both of them have spent the past year character assassinating me on Reddit and various wiki-related forums over this lawsuit. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} :You doxed me [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=2073359&amp;oldid=2073357&amp;unhide=1 here] and then a bunch of other times that I could find if you really want and then doxed other editors later and when your comments were suppressed you went to do the same thing on other sites including [[Kiwi Farms]] whose users still follow me around to harrass even now because of it. {{User:Ze/?}} 14:02, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Upon further consideration, I changed my mind. I hadn't quite seen the KiwiFarms shit. Let me be clear here, anyone who is on that site and thinks that posting anything to do with a member here is an A-Okay thing can honestly and directly fuck off. Smith needs as far as I am concerned no more place here. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: I've never doxed Ze - they formerly used their name initials (EK) on RationalWiki which is public knowledge. They renamed their account. They were banned from Wikipedia for trolling using their real name. How is any of this doxing if they've publicly used their real name as their account name on Wikipedia and used their initials on RationalWiki? If you go down that road and define doxing as someone who posts public information then by the same definition Ze (aka EK) has doxed me by posting my name Oliver Smith all over the place.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: LOL. If you want to ban people who post on Kiwi Farms, then ban EK/Ze - she posts there and libelled me as a pedophile on an account. It would be pretty moronic to deny this is her since the account is an SPA dedicated to attacking me and contains the same &quot;feminazi&quot; name description. EK/Ze has been using Kiwi Farms to libel me for months.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} My account initials were never connected to any name until you decided to do that, obviously it was public knowledge after you made it public knowledge which is what you must have wanted. The Zionist Feminazi account on Kiwifarms is obviously not me, and in addition to calling you a pedophile it doxes LGM, posts personal information about Dysk, claims Bongolian is your brother, and calls various peeps here SJWs which tbf is fairly standard for all the posters on that thread. It also engages in severe transphobia against dysk which seems cringe and is ngl a lot like your own very transphobic comments about dysk you made [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&amp;target=Arthur+Kerensa&amp;timestamp=20190426123447 here] which is now suppressed. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :What personal info from me was revealed? DM may be appropriate. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account on Kiwifarms is Ze who calls herself a feminazi here. Ze and Dysk claim to be siblings in real life. The &quot;Zionist Feminist&quot; account on Kiwi Farms libeled me as a pedophile and it is ''only'' Ze/Dysk that repeats the libel on that account. Ze is also involved with Mikemikev drama and note the only other thread the Feminazi account on KF posted in is Mike's. There are plenty of other evidences that account is Ze.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: On Kiwi Farms there is talk that Ze and Dysk are the same person. On his Reddit account, Dysk posted several times he is in actual fact Ze. Does anyone know what all this is about, or is it an elaborate hoax? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::It's a well known fact nothing I post on Reddit is true, I have no idea why people still take me seriously there. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::&lt;s&gt;I disagree with a ban of Smith,&lt;/s&gt; I personally don't have an opinion either way. I'd say that a stern admonishment along with a 2 way interaction ban from contacting Ze (and vice-versa) &lt;s&gt;should be sufficient in my opinion&lt;/s&gt; would be a good idea in the event that Smith is not banned. Additionally, a preemptive sysoprevoke may be in order, especially with Ze active on the site. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Kiko you are a moron, if you want to comment, make an effort to understand the situation. You want an interaction ban for someone who doxed several editors? What a joke. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::: EK/Ze doxxed my brother and if they didn't do that I wouldn't have even looked into their identity and found their Wikipedia account. My actions were retaliatory - Proof is here. View this edit: https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 (this is me confronting Ze over the dox of my brother ''before'' I posted links to their Wikipedia account with their name). [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od|7}} Glad to see that you admit to doxing Ze now mate, your denials were fucking tiresome. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:59, 16 September 2020 (UTC) : I've rebutted that below. I never posted private information about your sister - she signed up a public Wikipedia account with her name. In contrast, your sister doxxed my brother's name on Wikipedocracy and other websites when he's never publicly revealed his name online. You have a penchant for projection. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::Dysk, there is no need for personal attacks. No I don't neccessarily want an interaction ban. I only said that this would be an option if Smith is not banned, whether as a result of this coop, or otherwise. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 17:46, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Kiko go and do something useful, like fucking yourself with a broom. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:28, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ===Cultivating this many sockpuppets=== I don't know, man. Sockpuppetry is not explicitly against our rules. In fact having sock accounts has largely been condoned in the past. But I can't help but feel that this Oliver D. Smith business has taken it to a whole other level. It may be worth it to ban them simply because they're more trouble than they're worth. We don't need to embroil RationalWiki in a conflict spanning half the internet, just for the sake of a single user. The scale of this is... disturbing.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 18:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't see the point in any of these debates. Smith and Ze have been involved in an online slap-fight for over a year its on Kiwi Farms, discord, Reddit etc. It's impossible to have both these people on the same website. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I'd be inclined to support banning Smith just based on the scale of the drama they're embroiled in. All sorts of websites and sockpuppets and angry basement-dwellers plus at least one court case. It's not worth it to allow any chance of all that garbage spilling onto RW. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:07, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::If you look up the Wikipedia clusterfuck, EK (Ze) was indef b&amp; as a sockpuppet of Dysk (indef b&amp; as either a suspected troll or irredeemable PITA). I'd provide links, but I can't be arsed with accusations of doxxing. This whole thing is weird AF. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 20:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Ze was originally blocked due to a technical link between us, this was overturned (for Ze) by a Wikimedia steward, based on showing identity documents. Terms of the unblock followed the WP:CLEANSTART guidelines and the original account remains locked. However, despite this I personally remain banned from all Wikipedia projects, for trolling, and ban evasion. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::We don't need the identity documents, obviously, but a link to the ruling would be nice-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::This was largely conducted in private on Wikimedia IRC, you will have to make do with the rather limited WP:AN ruling linked to my &quot;main&quot; Wikipedia account. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}{{ping|User:Dysklyver}} Pull the other one, son. Look, you've had a good run. Let's not spoil it by going down the very silly road of my-sister-totally-started-editing-Wikipedia-a-month-before-I-got-b&amp;-and-whilst-I-was-sockpuppeteering-like-crazy. Smell tests n' all that. I invite you to resign from the board of trustees, hand back both your tech bits, and decide whether you'll use your Dysk or Ze account for voting in future. Graceful exits on gentle off ramps ftw. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 01:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :1. RationalWiki has no rule against sockpuppetry it is a moot argument, nevertheless I will point out that nothing you wrote is true. :2. I've been sockpuppeting on Wikipedia since around 2006. Although my socks are assigned to various SPI cases, the oldest one blocked as &quot;Dysk&quot; is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Adek21 this] November 2006 account. Ze did not get blocked until 2018 (12 years later) and that was a quickly resolved mishap I caused quite accidentally. :3. I never stopped Sockpuppeting on Wikipedia and still edit articles there on a regular basis, occasionally I get banned this doesn't concern me. I haven't been banned for nearly 2 months. :4. I don't intend to quit the board without having pushed certain changes outlined in my candidacy statement, this isn't negotiable. :5. It's probable that I will lose Tech over the IP-Data visibility issue. Not because I did anything wrong, but because of what I said about it. :6. This is very much off-topic to this Coop case, if you have further questions take it to my DMs or Email. :Thanks. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 11:18, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::Thanks for the link. I hadn't dug any further than A____r K_____a, but my main concern now is your use of the Dysk and Ze accounts to sustain a &quot;doxxing&quot; drama that doesn't impact your RL identity at all. I get that you might be having tons of fun fucking with people on the internet, but bollocks to you indulging that shit here. You have an off ramp. Take it, please. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 18:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :: Dysklyver is banned from other wikis for sockpuppetry. [[Conservapedia]] on his blocked account says &quot;inconclusive but convincing checkuser evidence of sockpuppetry&quot;. And since he admits to socking on Wikipedia, was blocked for doing it on Conservapedia - it's almost certain he does it on RationalWiki. But as he says it's not against the rules here - however he's someone who has attacked me across the internet for owning &quot;hundreds of accounts&quot;. Likely projection since I don't that many (my estimate is 35-40, but that's over a 8 year period), perhaps he does though. And note he's publicly discussing his Wikipedia accounts he shares on an IP with his sister here, but made a dubious claim I doxxed his sister when I merely posted her Wikipedia account. (facepalm)[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:39, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::On that note Smith, the user account that you are using, [[User:Flight]] is a sockpuppet of a banned user. Is there any reason why this account should not be blocked? If there isn't then why even bother with a vote? Why not just proceed to blocking Smith? We can then review the block afterwards, if deemed appropriate. We have enough drama on this wiki without Smith, by allowing Smith to return we are only allowing more drama to take place here. Not good, and not rational either. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:07, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Feel free to link where Smith was banned mate. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:25, 17 September 2020 (UTC) {{ping|Flight}} I'm proud to be banned from Conservapedia for trolling, and I really love [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:DMorris&amp;diff=1504046&amp;oldid=1495433 what you wrote there as OliverS] (Oliver D. Smith) when I was blocked there by DMorris. {{quotebox|1=You should be very careful when dealing with users of RationalWiki. You were wrong in exposing yourself to them, but you were right in blocking that account. Dyskylver/Arthur Kerensa is a sock-puppet of Bongolian (a RationalWiki moderator), and also a notorious sock-puppeteer. He is also almost certainly the operator behind the &quot;John66&quot; account on RationalWiki. I can't prove any of these claims right now as so few edits have been done, but I will eventually be proved right. Dyskylver will pretend to be normal for a while like he did on his Wikipedia accounts, but sooner or later will reveal himself when he posts in support of anarchism. He is an active British Antifa and identifies as anarcho-communist. It is clear that all the accounts posting on the RationalWiki coop are accounts are operated by the same person to create the illusion of support. I also notice someone has created another sock with a name similar to the others to cause disruption here. Most likely the same individual behind this entire shit show. He is a dangerous ideologue, don't trust what he tells you. [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:DMorris&amp;diff=1504046&amp;oldid=1495433 OliverS talk 20:08, 23 March 2019 (EDT)] }} Of course there is no evidence that I'm not a sockpuppet of {{ping|Bongolian}} and there is no evidence {{ping|Johns}} (John66) isn't my account. I can personally vouch for the accuracy of Conservapedia, and of course you would never lie about me on a Trusworthy™ site, would you? {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:44, 17 September 2020 (UTC) == Ban Abd == I can't remember exactly what this guy did but allegedly trolling and doxing were involved. I think he created a blog to attack various editors after that and the validity of what he wrote there is disputed. Like Smith he was unilaterally banned by a sysop on the basis of doxing without a coop vote, so in the interests of fairness we will confirm this ban too at the same time. Remember that the vote starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority to pass. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I oppose having a vote to reinstate Abd because he has not petitioned for reinstatement of rights. It's a needless drama to rehash all of his bullshit (or anyone else's who hasn't petitioned). He appears to be a death's door according to D, and partly-confirmed by his own website. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 19:48, 16 September 2020 (UTC) === Disscussion === Seems like a wise idea, poking through history, it seems his community also was responsible for raiding RW or something? Anyway, that blog of his was in the abuse filter at some point if I'm not mistaken. Unlike Smith, I do think I can be confident in saying that blocking Abd is a good idea. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I mean in terms of damage Smith did more than Abd but yes both should be banned and this is more about procedure since both have been treated as banned for a long time and had hundreds of accounts blocked for ban evasion. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:26, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Abd Lomax is a threat to RationalWiki user's privacy and was rightly banned. He threatened to sue David Gerard and RationalWiki, he posted this on his website coldfusioncommunity in 2018 (if you want I can link to this). He later dropped this idea and filed a lawsuit against Wikipedia for banning him. His lawsuit against Wikipedia was dismissed with prejudice, but Abd claimed in this lawsuit that RationalWiki had 'defamed' him. On Abd's coldfusioncommunity website there are 50 negative articles dedicated to 'researching' RationalWiki editors such as Smith and their alleged sock-puppets. ::Lomax also doxed some RationalWiki staff on his website and some of that information is still live. Fuzzycatpotato has been doxed on Abd Lomax's website his real name and house address has been exposed. Ze is a close friend of Abd Lomax, indeed Lomax wrote on Reddit a few months ago he considers ZE like a &quot;daughter&quot;. Ze also has a discord &quot;The Treehouse&quot; and she invited Abd to join it, and made him a mod there. D/Ze have been in an online slapfight with Smith for a year spilling over multiple websites. We need someone totally uninvolved with this Abd or Smith drama to solve these matters. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 18:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I've only interacted with Abd once, but he did [http://coldfusioncommunity.net/anglo-pyramidologist/darryl-l-smith/skeptic-from-britain/comment-trolling/verifier/ post briefly about me on his site] (he did not doxx me) which brought it to my notice. He does seem to post a lot about RW stuff on his webpage. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Yeah well your like me anonymous so Abd can't get you but he tries to get hold of editors real life names, then he publishes it on his website. Does fuzzy know Abd has published his personal details? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I would vote Aye to a ban of Abd, but I've not been on here long enough. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : Abd was banned on [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Some_random_Smith Some random Smith] a suckpuppet using my surname and then editing Emil Kirkegaard's article when he knew I was involved at the time in a lawsuit with Kirkegaard. So I suspect this was an impersonation. Abd is a malicious troll and [[User_talk:Some_random_Smith#Hey_FYI|David Gerard blocked the Smith account]] recognising it was Abd. Abd falsely claims (without any evidence) I impersonate people on his blog - it's psychological projection and he's describing his own sick behaviour.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I could say the same about you. Funny how you have no self awareness, when you post obviously hypocritical statements. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: The difference is I've never impersonated anyone while Abd Lomax demonstrably has or at least he has used my surname on his sockpuppets. Who am I meant to have impersonated? And why has no mod blocked me for an impersonation? They only seem to exist in your imagination. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: D has admitted to being a [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226696&amp;oldid=2226693 friend] of Lomax. Ze is also a close friend of Abd. We need neutral users on here if any discussion is to go forward. Abd has personally harassed me over email so I am against him fully. I admit I hate this evil ol man! So I am not neutral. I suggest we all stop debating this topic and wait for the voting. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Abd is a great guy, that said, I don't oppose his ban on the grounds of doxing. Same with Smith, but Smith is actually a cunt. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 11:21, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I understand that you have a personal relationship with Abd, and I have no problem with that. Abd however is a lunatic ([[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax#Pseudoscience|pseudoscience promotion]]), a pest (repeated ban evasions), and a danger (doxing). He is not 'great'. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:04, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::That's all water under the bridge now, Abd needs banning in my opinion. Smith, however needs summary banning without a vote in my opinion. He is the sockpuppet of an indefinitely blocked user by his own admission. Why are we even wasting our valuable time feeding this troll? {{DFFT}} [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:15, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ==Invalid vote: started prematurely== '''As noted at the top of the page, since this vote did not start 48 hours after the beginning of the coop, it is therefore invalid.''' [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:11, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :This shit is so tiresome already, and we have to sit through another fucking day of this? {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 01:06, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ===Derp=== * I would settle for blocking my account on a voluntary basis i.e. post this user has decided to quit. Would I show up again? No. Because this time there was actually a Coop discussion rather than the irregular procedure of banning me via discord with no consensus or discussion. I returned to this wiki to add articles because there was no proper ban, rather, it was two problematic admins (Ze and Dysk) who banned me based on dubious allegations of doxing (I've rebutted these allegations above). There is also a repeated false allegation I libelled Ze or Dysk; yet last time I looked they're the people viciously smearing me on multiple websites as a child abuser and pedophile among many other outrageous claims. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 18:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) [[File:Tobias on kiwifarms 2019.png|thumb|500px|Smith calling the RationalWiki mods and sysops &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot;]] Smith you said after you wrote banned as [[User:Tobias]] that you would never return while calling the mods and sysops here &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot; and saying a highly transphobic homophobic, and ableist [[Kiwi Farms]] thread was true (See the image). Why are you back. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I agree, I think that Ze asks a fair question. That said I will add that I'm not in favour of anything other than a simple 2 way interaction ban on both Ze and Smith. Additionally, I think that Ze should be admonished for misuse of sysop. Everyone makes mistakes, but mistakes like that should never be repeated again. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::There's no transphobia, homophobia, and ableism in any of my comments on KF or anywhere else (not that I actually care). Furthermore it's pretty stupid to use that as a guilt by association fallacy when we both know you (Ze) are the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account I was responding to in that thread who was libelling me as a pedophile. To anyone who wants to actually check that full thread to get the context rather than believe Ze's quote-mines - notice my comment in the screenshot is only responding to &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; after I was provoked. And note how the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account identically matches Ze's posts and writing style, for example take the following comment they posted on Kiwi Farms: {{quotebox|May 18, 2019 Zionist Feminazi maybe the doxing has something to do with how her name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account and the harassment has something to do with how u went onto her talk page and discord to post threats and weird shit about the things u would do unless she redacted a wikipediocracy post to not mention ur insane brother who spends his time spamming reddit?}} To those familiar with Ze aka EK's writing style will know their usage of &quot;ur&quot;. Not only that but it matches identical claims they make here such as the dubious claims of doxing and how her account &quot;name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account&quot; (we've seen that same claim made above by Ze). Add this to the fact EK calls herself as a feminazi and elsewhere has claimed to support zionism plus that user only was posting in the RationalWiki and Mikemikev thread specifically to attack me -is rather conclusive its the same person. How many other people who support zionism and call themself a feminazi with the same writing style to Ze are there? I'm not sure how much more evidence other mods here would need. The fact they are denying this is them shows how highly deceptive they are. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::The Zionist Feminazi user on Kiwifarms is a former close friend of mine, I can confirm it's not Ze. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:32, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I would vote Aye, but 1) I'm not an eligible voter and 2) I think this proposal is ill concieved and we'd be better off if we did what WMF wikis do and implement a procedure for appealing bans that does not involve sockpuppetery. The problem with this proposal is that it encourages people who are banned to evade their bans. Hence invalidating their meaning and purpose. Not good. So if I were an eligible voter, I'd vote Nay, we're better off with the status quo, which at least wouldn't create a precedent that any ban retrospectively deemed &quot;invalid&quot; may simply be disregarded without consequence. This isn't an Anarchy, or a battleground. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:50, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't even understand whey this is a vote. Abd is a certified doxer. I'm not about to give Smith the benefit of the doubt, particularly if there is confirmation that Smith is a doxer. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Either way I think that Smith has admitted to being a sockpuppet of [[User:Tobias]] who has already been indefinitely banned. So I fully agree with you, on the basis of that evidence alone, there appears to be no need for a vote. I don't see why we can't just summarily ban Smith aka Tobias aka Flight instead of bothering with a vote, which is just a waste of everyone's time. If Smith wishes to appeal the ban, and sees it as unjust, and intends to edit there are already proper channels for doing so e.g. on his talk page (if not revoked), by email (if not revoked), or by Discord. If both his talk page, and email access have been revoked, and he is banned from the Discord server, then tough shit. That's his problem, not our problem. If that's the case then we can just ban him, then Forget It, Move On. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: @ Kiko and Bongolian - my Tobias account was banned without the correct procedure. It was banned with no discussion or vote based on a dubious claim of doxing. I dispute the doxing claim because all I did is link to Ze (aka EK) Wikipedia account. That's all I ever did. I don't consider that doxing. Ze's dubious claim is it was doxing because she had not mentioned/linked her Wikipedia account on RationalWiki. Wikipedia accounts are public. Perhaps the reason Ze acted the way they did is because their Wikipedia account is perm banned for trolling and they're a notorious sockpuppeteer - there's dozens of accounts banned under their name. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Are we going to ignore you doxing Greenrd, Occam, and that you posted Ze's full name which isn't in the Wikipedia link? Get real mate, you can focus on one thing, and there are a dozen more offenses I can list. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: You're a proven liar. Ze's full name is in the Wikipedia url I posted. A mere google search of &quot;Greenrd&quot; ''reveals his full name''. How is that doxing? This stuff is public and Greenrd connects his online pseudonym to his real name on multiple sites. Same for Captain Occam who has identified himself on blogs and forums (his real name) with his pseudonym. None of this is doxxing (revealing private information), but you know that. You've made up a tun of false allegations to smear me with. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Remarkably Smith, what you wrote there is proven lies by the suppression logs already posted on this page... I guess you are full of shite. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::: That's your and EK's usual response when you're been exposed as outright lying. &quot;It's the logs!&quot; when these aren't even viewable. And lol @ doxing Greenrd when his surname is his pseudonmyn. But I guess you're going to go back to spamming Reddit with your &quot;Oliver is a malicious doxxer&quot; crap. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od|:::::::}}Thanks for your response Smith, as a result I can now be satisfied so that I am sure (i.e. beyond a reasonable doubt) that you are the sockpuppet of a banned user i.e. Smith aka Tobias. Therefore, if I were an eligible voter I would definitely voting Aye. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 17:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :On that note, I feel that this coop will be pointless if I just block Smith to enforce his desire to LANCB. I have asked him to confirm that he desires to LANCB, and that he is happy for me to indefinitely block him to enforce his desire. If he does confirm that, then I will just indefinitely block him, and ask for this coop to be archived without a vote. Are there any objections? [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 08:36, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yes, I object. Too many people have LANCBed before only to return. And since Smith is notorious for his sockpuppetry, we need a 2/3 mob decision on whether all his current and future incarnations can be summarily banished. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 09:06, 17 September 2020 (UTC) :::I also object. Users shouldn't get away with no punishment just because they ragequit. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 09:15, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ===A summary of my actions wrongly claimed to be doxxing by EK and Dysk=== * Ze's former name on RationalWiki was EK. Those are her real name initials and she has a Wikipedia account (banned) under her real name. I linked to the Wikipedia account. * Greenrd pseudonym is his surname. All I did was Google his name and you get his full name including surname on plenty of sites. The first link on Google has Greenrd, his surname and first name (I won't here post, but its public). * Captain Occam (a banned Wikipedia troll) has identified his pseudonyms (Captain Occam, Occam) with his real name on blogs and forums. So how did I dox any of these people? Nothing I linked or posted was private information. If EK wanted to be anonymous in cyberspace why use her real name initials on RationalWiki and sign up a Wikipedia account with full real name? Based on the above false allegations of doxing I was incorrectly banned on the user:Tobias.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:49, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't think you or D/Ze should continue your slapfight on this website. It's been going on over a year on other platforms. You need to put an end to it and just agree to never talk to each other again. Users should stop arguing here and just wait to vote on the bans. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The problem is the mods or other users aren't looking at the evidence, some are uncritically going along with D/Ze's total BS and lies. I've never doxxed those 3 listed people. Anyone impartial can see that if they read my simple rebuttal above. No information I've posted is private but public.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Just because Ze volunteered her real life name on one platform, doesn't justify you revealing it on another one. Revealing her name on RW is doxxing. And you continuing to point out her real world initials should be reason for immediate block for as long as it takes until we get the permaban vote concluded. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 23:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Anyone can Google these peoples usernames and get their real life name because they are publicly attached to their accounts on other websites like Greenrd so it does not match the usual definition of &quot;doxing&quot; used in law because the information is public, not private. But there is a stricter definition of the term doxing on this website where you can not divulge any name from any external website even if it is public and connect it to a pseudonym. This sort of connecting the pieces research is forbidden. My advice is to close your account here and move on. Abd is not coming back here. You should not come back either. The best way to leave is by choice. The infighting on this website can be very toxic. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Four points as a rebuttal: :::::(1) They used their real name initials on RationalWiki. :::::(2) They use their first real name on RationalWiki-related discord chats. :::::(3) Ze claims their brother is Dysk; the latter's Wikipedia account is connected to his sisters and since Dysk has mentioned his Wikipedia identity on RationalWiki it was easy to find :::::(4) Finally, I don't use the weakened definition of doxing but the strong dictionary definition which contradicts what Coigreach said. Cambridge dictionary definition: &quot;the action of finding or publishing private information about someone on the internet without their permission, especially in a way that reveals their name, address, etc.&quot; Key word: private. EK signed up her real name on Wikipedia. How is that private? It isn't - Wikipedia is a public site. What would be doxing is if someone leaked actual private information including, for example a name behind a paywall site or credit card details. Guess what? [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 The former is what EK did to my brother] on the Wikipedocracy forum which is what I confronted them about on Tobias and asked them to retract where they did this. My brother was doxxed by a troll who put his name on the internet having paid for his information behind paywall site. My brother never released his name on any public website - yet EK went around the internet doxxing him on multiple websites. I then get banned for posting Ek's name after I was confronting them about doxxing my brother. You really couldn't make it up. Had they not doxxed my brother I wouldn't have looked into their identity and found their Wikipedia account. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 My actions were retaliatory]. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:39, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::: Ze/Abd have both been doxing your family so in retaliation you found her banned Wikipedia account name. I understand but this slap-fight has been going on too long. There is bad on all sides. Nobody is innocent here. Abd was the first to dox your family. Abd has quite an influence on Ze. I think the real issue here is him and his bad influence on some from this community. I mean it was him that started this flame war between you guys. But I am bored of this now and I going to sleep. My advice is to move on. These petty online feuds are not worth the time. I seriously think you should close your account on here. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 00:00, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::: (Edit conflict) (1) Again, it wasn't known that those were her real life initials until you brought it up. ::::::(2)I hold a strong belief that what happens in Discord should have no bearing here. ::::::(3)Just because it's easy to find doesn't mean it's justifiable to reveal. Also, what Dysk reveals shouldn't make it okay to reveal extended information about his (alleged) sister. ::::::(4)This ''is'' RationalWiki. And our more strict definition of Doxxing applies as far as the blocking policy is concerned. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 00:01, 16 September 2020 (UTC) It must be wonderful to have this much free time to spend hours doing pointless shittery, trolling, doxing, revenge bitching, online stalking and year long bickering all over the internet. Must be conducive to a truly content happy soul. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:24, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :Agreed but {{DFFT}} [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 17:40, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :: Back to reality: view my [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Flight&amp;dir=prev&amp;offset=20200908214141&amp;target=Flight user contributions]. My edit history on this wiki is adding mainspace articles - and I've added between 200 and 300 since 2012. My account Flight is only 2 weeks old, but has already made 3 lengthy articles such as [[spiteful mutant hypothesis]]. The behaviour you are describing is the total ''opposite'' of mine. I've never used this wiki for drama and I've virtually never posted in the saloon bar and with few exceptions (obviously if you exclude this coop where I protest an incorrect blocking procedure and a couple of talk pages), rarely post on non-mainspace articles. I also never joined any RationalWiki group or chat. I'm a solitary individual who never even made friends here over 8 years and only used this wiki to add constructive articles. I have no idea why people think I'm involved in shit-posting or trolling. As I said view my edit history. As far as drama, stalking or revenge bitching is concerned - Ze (aka EK) followed me on Twitter months back - I blocked them and told them to fuck off. Despite the misinformation saying otherwise, I have no interest in 'bickering all over the internet'. The only place off-this wiki I briefly mentioned my ban was on KF. My total post count there is very small and I haven't posted there for well over a year.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 18:47, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Your honesty is appreciated Smith, but the fact that you've already been convicted and sentenced, but are unlawfully at large, and clearly don't see anything wrong with your prior misconduct, are all things that strongly suggest that you need indefinite banning. This doesn't even need a vote in my opinion, a straight ban would be sufficient due process for you. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 21:57, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ==Indefinite ban for D== There is now solid evidence [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User:D D] has been looking up private IP data and using this data as a personal check-user. I also believe he has been sending that information to his friend [[Abd Lomax]] a hostile critic of this website who has threatened various editors here with legal action in the past. Even if he has not sent private information to Abd, he has violated users privacy. User Flight recently revealed this comment from D on Reddit: *&quot;''I can see the IP addresses Smith used on RationalWiki due to the fact I'm a tech there. Every single IP on a Smith account that I checked going back to 2016 or so was a VPN'' and ''I can clearly see the IP addresses Smith used on his accounts don't match his public IP address he used separately without an account. Furthermore, Smith has been recently editing RationalWiki using different IP addresses''. The link can be found here [https://archive.is/RMawd]. *D [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226696&amp;oldid=2226693 admits here] Abd is his friend and admits to trolling Wikipedia talk-pages. *Also D says he takes LSD [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226693&amp;oldid=2226681]. On Reddit D says he does much of his editing when he is high. *D is indefinitely banned on Wikipedia and uncyclopedia. Whilst bans off this website have no involvement in RationalWiki it does paint a picture that this user is a troll which he confesses to. Here D admits to trolling. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&amp;diff=2226685&amp;oldid=2226683 ''&quot;I personally remain banned from all Wikipedia projects, for trolling, and ban evasion'']. *D has been in communication with Abd Lomax for over a year. I received emails from Abd telling me he has private IP data of RationalWiki accounts. Abd has threatened to sue RationalWiki users in the past. *D and Ze invited Abd to join their discord server &quot;The Treehouse&quot; and made him a mod there. There are many chats there about RationalWiki with Abd. *Abd filed a lawsuit against Wikipedia (it was thrown out with prejudice) but in that lawsuit Abd mentioned RationalWiki as 'defaming' him [https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/14573324/lomax-v-wikimedia-foundation-inc/]. D has publicly posted on Reddit and Wikipediocracy that he supports Abd's lawsuit. *Here D admits nothing he posts is true, [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&amp;diff=2226689&amp;oldid=2226686]. Is this someone we want on the board of trustees? * The abuse of tech rights is outright ban offense. This is violation of privacy. Totally unacceptable. On any other wiki, this would not even be a vote. You need an indefinite ban on this user right now. Apparently tech rights has now been fixed so IP/s can not be seen but it is way too late. Privacy has been violated here. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 21:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::I fully agree, and would happily vote Aye, however I'm not an eligible voter. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 21:54, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::I wouldn't be in favour of banning (talking to Abd on Discord, taking LSD and being banned from other projects are not bannable offences). But I will say that [https://archive.is/RMawd comments Dysk made here] are extremely damning, and a very serious breach of tech privileges. I'd support re-looking at whether Dysk should have tech rights. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 22:00, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::: The ban is over the breach of tech privileges which violates privacy. The Abd link is very suspect but I have known about that for months. His behavior in regard to the IPs is absolutely unethical and outrageous. The trustees need to take action and suspend this user. I don't see how this can even be up for debate. Pinging the other trustees {{ping|GrammarCommie}}, {{ping|LeftyGreenMario}}, {{ping|FuzzyCatPotato}}, {{ping|Tmtoulouse}}, {{ping|Spud}}. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) ::::: If D isn't permanently banned, then I fully agree with RWRW on that one. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:11, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::In my opinion banning is not necessary, but tech removal is on the table. The ''suspicion'' of this sort of thing played a major role in removing tech rights from Oxy.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 22:17, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Yep - immediate loss of tech rights followed by vote on a ban. But who gives a shit about LSD? I've edited this site under influence of many substances. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:20, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::I've donned my mod hat and removed tech rights pending discussion about said rights. I think the offense is serious enough for immediate action. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:21, 16 September 2020 (UTC) {{od|:::::::::}} Fully agreed Ace. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:27, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :As far as I'm concerned, only the tech rights abuse is actionable. I don't care who D is friends with, nor what substances he abuses. I mostly edit when drunk. In fact I'm drunk right now. And extra wiki douchebaggery should be unpunishable 99.99% of the time :That said, the tech rights abuse is serious enough to warrant major punishment. I agree with Aces decision to unilaterally strip Dysks tech rights. The same should be done to Ze, who also admitted to the abuses. Furthermore a long block is warranted, even if permaban might be a bit too much for my liking. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 22:35, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::I'm somewhat tipsy already and it's 10:36am and I am in my office with the door closed. But yes - loss of tech rights is the least we can do for now. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:37, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Some of the evidence given is besides the point, if not particularly flattering (e.g. editing on acid). The IP issue is the crux of the matter and I think it is damning. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 22:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I agree Coigreach. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:45, 16 September 2020 (UTC) : I can dig up another Reddit comment in the same thread (I need to go through 100+ comments though...); an anonymous user asked Dysk for a specific log/IP detail of a RationalWiki account, and Dysk's response was he would give it in private (by private I assume email or the private message feature on Reddit). The main person Dysk has been discussing and likely giving IP data to in that [https://archive.is/RMawd Reddit thread] is [[Emil Kirkegaard]] who posts on Reddit as Deleetdk. There is no doubt the pseudonym Deleetdk is Kirkegaard and the Deleetdk account identifies as Emil. Deleetdk appears [https://archive.is/weUzS in the thread at least once.] The allegations by Kirkegaard and Dysk I use VPNs is false. Whatever IPs Dysk was discussing and presumably leaking (if they weren't public IP edits) to Kirkegaard weren't mine but other editors, though my real IP he probably gave to Kirkegaard but I've publicly edited on it on this wiki. lol. That's how stupid their false claim I use VPNs is.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:02, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::Can confirm that Deleetdk is openly Emil Kirkegaard - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 23:18, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Someone asked me for my opinion on this? Sure, whatever, have at it. Dysk doesn't show good judgement, that's not news. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 23:40, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Yes, by all means proceed with disciplinary action against D. ::::But I'd like to make it clear at this point that it is still my considered opinion that Oliver D. Smith is a horrible person just like the vast majority of his many online enemies are horrible people too. I think his ban as Tobias was legitimate and he shouldn't be editing here using another account now. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 00:48, 17 September 2020 (UTC) Is there any evidence d and ze are different people? Several other websites say they are the same person, do they need two accounts on here? [[Special:Contributions/82.132.231.117|82.132.231.117]] ([[User talk:82.132.231.117|talk]]) 09:22, 17 September 2020 (UTC) :There is no evidence, if anyone decides to post any I will ban them. Alright? {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:23, 17 September 2020 (UTC) === Statement by Dysk === Since Smith and Johns are now both openly lying about obvious facts, I'm gonna address a few points. * I've already pointed out that I did have access to IP addresses, that many of those belonged to Smith because he was doing most of the vandalism, and that I considered using it as a Checkuser. This much is not in dispute. * It has been claimed that I &quot;looked up IPs&quot;, this is simply not true. I saw IP addresses while dealing with the edit filter, as I rewrote all the filters here in 2019, added some new ones, and generally improved the false positive rate. At the time it wasn't possible to check the filter details without seeing IP addresses. I have a near photographic memory and after a time working on the edit filter, realised there were repeat patterns in who was trashing the wiki quite by chance. After this I discussed whether a checkuser capability would be possible or desirable, it was concluded not. * It has been claimed that I shared information with Abd Lomax, this is untrue. If Abd did get logs from this site that wasn't from me, and didn't happen on my Discord server. My involvement with Abd, was entirety related to his lawsuit against the Wikimedia Foundation, during the course of which we became friends. * It has been claimed that I shared information with Emil Kirkegaard, this is untrue. The only time I spoke to Kirkegaard he called me a traitor to western civilisation and threatened to murder my family. I have not been subsequently inclined to speak to him, although I followed his lawsuit against Oliver Smith. * It has been claimed that I shared information with an anonymous user on Reddit, this is not true. While talking to an account claiming to be &quot;The Real Oliver Smith&quot; on Reddit, I discussed whether Smith had used VPNs, my opinion on the matter was informed by my memory of his IP addresses from the time I'd worked on the edit filter. This user reached out to me in private to ask what information was accessible, but they were unable to verify their identity, and the conversation ended with no information disclosed. * It has been claimed that I edit this wiki while high, this is accurate. I don't believe that my ability to edit is substantially affected by this fact, indeed I'm currently smoking marijuana while writing this. * It has been implied that I have at some point recorded IP-Data from this wiki, this is untrue. At no point did I write any IP addresses down, record, or share with others any private information. * It has been claimed other tech users, such as Ze, and Oxyaena, and others I will not name, have accessed IP-Data. This is partly true. All current techs that have worked on the edit filter, will certainly have seen users IP addresses. There is no evidence that any tech took note of this, except for Oxyaena saying she did on the mod noticeboard. Users such as Ze, and The Crow, were aware of the IP address visibility, but there is no indication they misused this access. Ace has decided in his infinite wisdom to jump the gun and remove my Tech bit, again, despite the fact the access in dispute isn't possible now. Meanwhile others such as Spud, are posting in favour of removing all Techs and appointing new ones, as if there is an unlimited supply of people that do shite here. I personally believe that this is counterproductive to the maintenance of the wiki. Furthermore, I believe that rehashing shite that was throughly discussed and resolved months ago is a waste of time. Nevertheless it's up y'all to decide what to do with your time, carry on. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 11:29, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ::Ace, in his infinite wisdom, had the support [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation#D_and_tech_rights of every single current moderator]. Probably the first time I've seen the mod team all agree on something in quite some time. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 11:42, 17 September 2020 (UTC) :::Clearly, a shared sense of laziness considering the reasons are 90% made up by a troll, and nobody noticed they weren't true. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 11:45, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I don't trust Oliver D. Smith as far as I can throw him. And I'll say this bluntly. I don't want him here. But obviously the fact remains that techs had access to information that they should not have had access to. I think a clean break with the past is the only way forward. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 12:02, 17 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Then I will take my leave here, and join the increasing list of people who are more interested in spending time with those who appreciate their help, than participating in an obnoxious troll site. A site which is mainly used to dox and make fun of cranks, and has barely a dozen mainspace editors and barely twenty relevant quality pages anyone reads. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 12:10, 17 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:D&diff=2227389</id> <title>User:D</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:D&diff=2227389"/> <updated>2020-09-17T12:03:39Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: New. <hr /> <div> {{Banninated}} {{messagebox |type = notice |image = Stop x nuvola.svg |2= '''This user is banned indefinitely from editing almost everywhere except RationalWiki.''' Please help address this by complaining about how this user should be banned on the [[RationalWiki:Chicken coop|Chicken coop]] before commenting or unblocking. It doesn't matter if the complaints are true, people will believe you uncritically anyway.}} Userpage of Dysk. RationalMedia Foundation board of Trustees member 2020-2022. Former Tech. Perennial troll and return of Pbfreespace3. I don't edit this shite until I do. [[Special:Mypage|{{USERNAME}}]] is my sockpuppet.</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2227380</id> <title>RationalWiki:Chicken coop</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2227380"/> <updated>2020-09-17T11:46:03Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Statement by Dysk */ <hr /> <div>__NEWSECTIONLINK__{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}[[Category:RationalWiki]][[Category:RationalWiki moderation]][[Category:Turdblossoms]] [[Category:Shit articles]] {{hatnote|Not to be confused with the [[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation|moderator noticeboard]].}} {{talkpage |search=yes}} {{shortcut|RW:CC|RW:COOP}} &lt;!-- {{/status|}} --&gt; {{/status|3}} The '''chicken coop''' is for the avoidance, containment and resolution of cases of [[Headless Chicken Mode]] (HCM). Despite the name, this tends to be serious business. This page can be used for reporting cases of administrative abuse (abuse of [[RationalWiki:Sysop guide|sysop]] or [[RationalWiki:Moderators|moderator]] abilities such as blocking, page deletion, or user rights management), general abuse (such as [[troll]]ing, [[wandalism]], and personal attacks), and '''conflicts which cannot be solved through normal talk page discussion''' (such as long-standing edit wars or article content disputes). Please be specific and include links to any relevant discussions, page edits or logs. All editors are welcome to comment on the cases raised here, and to try to reach a consensus on any action to be taken. If no consensus can be reached, and the HCM seems to be escalating, moderators are expected to take some action. However, any serious or permanent solution, such as removal of rights or lengthy ban, requires a community vote here according to the guidelines laid out in our [[RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Voting|Community Standards]]. '''Please''' try to resolve conflicts directly through discussion on other editor's talk pages '''before''' reporting them. It's better to just talk to someone rather than try to drag their name through the mud. If the issue is not conflict resolution, but concerns RationalWiki policies, suggested changes to how things work around here, or similar matters of principle, please post '''[[RationalWiki talk:Community Standards|on the Community Standards talk page]] instead. When presenting a case here, be sure to include ''whom'' you are accusing, what exactly you are accusing them ''of'', some hard ''evidence'', and a brief ''explanation''. Since the sole purpose of the Coop is to resolve these disputes, don't post unrelated or more generalized complaints here — if you do, your posts will be moved off the page. Any vote started within 48 hours of filing will be deleted and you will be blocked. Use {{tl|CoopNotice}} to inform the user in question, so that they have a chance to discuss their actions here. As a final note, if you think this page is a good tactic to apply in gaming the mob into doing your bidding, you may be shocked to see your post archived ''quite'' swiftly. == Ban Smith == I propose to formally ban the user known as &quot;Smith&quot; for the offenses of: # Doxing me and at least 3 other members of this site on various talk pages here and creating at least 2 libellous attack pages on editors here. # Doxing members of this site on [[Kiwi Farms]] and Reddit and elsewhere. # Attempting to bulk delete pages here in [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?oldid=2040594 connection with] a lawsuit and causing disruption in the process along with arguably shifting the legal responsibility for those pages onto the site users who voted to keep them. # Deliberately introducing defamatory material to multiple pages as part of a [http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2019/3393.html dispute] with some crank. # Using this site to carry out a flame war with [[Mikemikev]] and [[Abd]] for several years including impersonating both on several occasions. # Vandalism and trolling with &quot;throwaway&quot; accounts to disrupt site processes on numerous occasions. I'm not going to specify any evidence because the most relevant evidence is suppressed and everyone with suppression access is well aware of the situation already. Just remember voting starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Discussion === :so we are being asked to vote to ban a user few of us actually know who they are with no evidence provided? another coop another farce. [[User:AMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] ([[User talk:AMassiveGay|talk]]) 12:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yes exactly that. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::It's honestly difficult to get the details clear, since a lot was suppressed. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus That said, this discussion remains] as well as the AfD Ze has linked. It appears to be tied to the [[Mikemikev]]/[[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]] drama, the former of whom got banned from RW for... what should frankly be obvious reasons (just read his page lol). I'll be frank, I won't vote in the Smith stuff since I don't know this particular drama shitstorm surrounding those two, but as far as I'm concerned, there is not exactly a great loss to the wiki should they remain gone? -Also just to quickly clarify, this coop isn't about nobs lol-. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Not banning him would kinda send the message that doxing is ok here so my vote is settled already. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Smith's only real activity here was and is meant to further internet grudges and escalate drama. It's caused problems on more than one occasion. Not an editor we need to keep around. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 13:21, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Funny comment considering I've added the most articles of any editor to RationalWiki. Most the people criticising me instead don't add constructive content but use this wiki as a chat-room such as Saloon bar (a place I've virtually never visited).[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: I've never doxed, impersonated or defamed anyone, notice as well no evidence is ever presented for these wild allegations. Ze has engaged in a gaslighting campaign against me for some time and nothing they post about me is accurate. They link to the preliminary judgement ''Kirkegaard v Smith [2019] EWHC 3393 (QB)'' but that has nothing to do with RationalWiki. I was never sued for comments I made on this wiki so claims I have posted libel on this wiki are blatantly false. And I won the lawsuit - Kirkegaard discontinued in May and has to pay my legal fees as the losing party. The preliminary judgement concerned fact versus opinion and ruled my comments were &quot;expressions of opinion and are defamatory&quot; ''however'' the judge pointed out &quot;For the avoidance of doubt, I am not deciding the question of serious harm under s 1 of the Defamation Act 2013.&quot; (the preliminary was to determine whether my comments were fact or opinion not the question of serious harm and I won it on the basis I was arguing my comments were opinions while Kirkegaard incorrectly said they were facts and he was criticised by the judge for taking my comments out of context). Had it gone to full trial or summary judgement (I filed for) a judge would have decided if my comments were either honest opinion (my legal defence) or defamation based on the serious harm question. Kirkegaard discontinued the lawsuit shortly before the judge was going to decide this knowing he/she would almost certainly have ruled my opinions were honestly held rather than defamation. So did I defame him? No. It' s highly misleading to say I did since my comments were upheld as honest opinion which provides a legal defence to defamation (other than truth) and he discontinued the lawsuit knowing the judge in the summary judgement would have ruled my comments did not cause him serious harm. Of course, I don't expect Ze (formerly EK) or Dysk (aka D) to acknowledge this and both of them have spent the past year character assassinating me on Reddit and various wiki-related forums over this lawsuit. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} :You doxed me [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=2073359&amp;oldid=2073357&amp;unhide=1 here] and then a bunch of other times that I could find if you really want and then doxed other editors later and when your comments were suppressed you went to do the same thing on other sites including [[Kiwi Farms]] whose users still follow me around to harrass even now because of it. {{User:Ze/?}} 14:02, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Upon further consideration, I changed my mind. I hadn't quite seen the KiwiFarms shit. Let me be clear here, anyone who is on that site and thinks that posting anything to do with a member here is an A-Okay thing can honestly and directly fuck off. Smith needs as far as I am concerned no more place here. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: I've never doxed Ze - they formerly used their name initials (EK) on RationalWiki which is public knowledge. They renamed their account. They were banned from Wikipedia for trolling using their real name. How is any of this doxing if they've publicly used their real name as their account name on Wikipedia and used their initials on RationalWiki? If you go down that road and define doxing as someone who posts public information then by the same definition Ze (aka EK) has doxed me by posting my name Oliver Smith all over the place.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: LOL. If you want to ban people who post on Kiwi Farms, then ban EK/Ze - she posts there and libelled me as a pedophile on an account. It would be pretty moronic to deny this is her since the account is an SPA dedicated to attacking me and contains the same &quot;feminazi&quot; name description. EK/Ze has been using Kiwi Farms to libel me for months.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} My account initials were never connected to any name until you decided to do that, obviously it was public knowledge after you made it public knowledge which is what you must have wanted. The Zionist Feminazi account on Kiwifarms is obviously not me, and in addition to calling you a pedophile it doxes LGM, posts personal information about Dysk, claims Bongolian is your brother, and calls various peeps here SJWs which tbf is fairly standard for all the posters on that thread. It also engages in severe transphobia against dysk which seems cringe and is ngl a lot like your own very transphobic comments about dysk you made [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&amp;target=Arthur+Kerensa&amp;timestamp=20190426123447 here] which is now suppressed. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :What personal info from me was revealed? DM may be appropriate. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account on Kiwifarms is Ze who calls herself a feminazi here. Ze and Dysk claim to be siblings in real life. The &quot;Zionist Feminist&quot; account on Kiwi Farms libeled me as a pedophile and it is ''only'' Ze/Dysk that repeats the libel on that account. Ze is also involved with Mikemikev drama and note the only other thread the Feminazi account on KF posted in is Mike's. There are plenty of other evidences that account is Ze.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: On Kiwi Farms there is talk that Ze and Dysk are the same person. On his Reddit account, Dysk posted several times he is in actual fact Ze. Does anyone know what all this is about, or is it an elaborate hoax? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::It's a well known fact nothing I post on Reddit is true, I have no idea why people still take me seriously there. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::&lt;s&gt;I disagree with a ban of Smith,&lt;/s&gt; I personally don't have an opinion either way. I'd say that a stern admonishment along with a 2 way interaction ban from contacting Ze (and vice-versa) &lt;s&gt;should be sufficient in my opinion&lt;/s&gt; would be a good idea in the event that Smith is not banned. Additionally, a preemptive sysoprevoke may be in order, especially with Ze active on the site. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Kiko you are a moron, if you want to comment, make an effort to understand the situation. You want an interaction ban for someone who doxed several editors? What a joke. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::: EK/Ze doxxed my brother and if they didn't do that I wouldn't have even looked into their identity and found their Wikipedia account. My actions were retaliatory - Proof is here. View this edit: https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 (this is me confronting Ze over the dox of my brother ''before'' I posted links to their Wikipedia account with their name). [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od|7}} Glad to see that you admit to doxing Ze now mate, your denials were fucking tiresome. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:59, 16 September 2020 (UTC) : I've rebutted that below. I never posted private information about your sister - she signed up a public Wikipedia account with her name. In contrast, your sister doxxed my brother's name on Wikipedocracy and other websites when he's never publicly revealed his name online. You have a penchant for projection. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::Dysk, there is no need for personal attacks. No I don't neccessarily want an interaction ban. I only said that this would be an option if Smith is not banned, whether as a result of this coop, or otherwise. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 17:46, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Kiko go and do something useful, like fucking yourself with a broom. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:28, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ===Cultivating this many sockpuppets=== I don't know, man. Sockpuppetry is not explicitly against our rules. In fact having sock accounts has largely been condoned in the past. But I can't help but feel that this Oliver D. Smith business has taken it to a whole other level. It may be worth it to ban them simply because they're more trouble than they're worth. We don't need to embroil RationalWiki in a conflict spanning half the internet, just for the sake of a single user. The scale of this is... disturbing.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 18:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't see the point in any of these debates. Smith and Ze have been involved in an online slap-fight for over a year its on Kiwi Farms, discord, Reddit etc. It's impossible to have both these people on the same website. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I'd be inclined to support banning Smith just based on the scale of the drama they're embroiled in. All sorts of websites and sockpuppets and angry basement-dwellers plus at least one court case. It's not worth it to allow any chance of all that garbage spilling onto RW. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:07, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::If you look up the Wikipedia clusterfuck, EK (Ze) was indef b&amp; as a sockpuppet of Dysk (indef b&amp; as either a suspected troll or irredeemable PITA). I'd provide links, but I can't be arsed with accusations of doxxing. This whole thing is weird AF. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 20:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Ze was originally blocked due to a technical link between us, this was overturned (for Ze) by a Wikimedia steward, based on showing identity documents. Terms of the unblock followed the WP:CLEANSTART guidelines and the original account remains locked. However, despite this I personally remain banned from all Wikipedia projects, for trolling, and ban evasion. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::We don't need the identity documents, obviously, but a link to the ruling would be nice-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::This was largely conducted in private on Wikimedia IRC, you will have to make do with the rather limited WP:AN ruling linked to my &quot;main&quot; Wikipedia account. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}{{ping|User:Dysklyver}} Pull the other one, son. Look, you've had a good run. Let's not spoil it by going down the very silly road of my-sister-totally-started-editing-Wikipedia-a-month-before-I-got-b&amp;-and-whilst-I-was-sockpuppeteering-like-crazy. Smell tests n' all that. I invite you to resign from the board of trustees, hand back both your tech bits, and decide whether you'll use your Dysk or Ze account for voting in future. Graceful exits on gentle off ramps ftw. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 01:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :1. RationalWiki has no rule against sockpuppetry it is a moot argument, nevertheless I will point out that nothing you wrote is true. :2. I've been sockpuppeting on Wikipedia since around 2006. Although my socks are assigned to various SPI cases, the oldest one blocked as &quot;Dysk&quot; is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Adek21 this] November 2006 account. Ze did not get blocked until 2018 (12 years later) and that was a quickly resolved mishap I caused quite accidentally. :3. I never stopped Sockpuppeting on Wikipedia and still edit articles there on a regular basis, occasionally I get banned this doesn't concern me. I haven't been banned for nearly 2 months. :4. I don't intend to quit the board without having pushed certain changes outlined in my candidacy statement, this isn't negotiable. :5. It's probable that I will lose Tech over the IP-Data visibility issue. Not because I did anything wrong, but because of what I said about it. :6. This is very much off-topic to this Coop case, if you have further questions take it to my DMs or Email. :Thanks. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 11:18, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::Thanks for the link. I hadn't dug any further than A____r K_____a, but my main concern now is your use of the Dysk and Ze accounts to sustain a &quot;doxxing&quot; drama that doesn't impact your RL identity at all. I get that you might be having tons of fun fucking with people on the internet, but bollocks to you indulging that shit here. You have an off ramp. Take it, please. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 18:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :: Dysklyver is banned from other wikis for sockpuppetry. [[Conservapedia]] on his blocked account says &quot;inconclusive but convincing checkuser evidence of sockpuppetry&quot;. And since he admits to socking on Wikipedia, was blocked for doing it on Conservapedia - it's almost certain he does it on RationalWiki. But as he says it's not against the rules here - however he's someone who has attacked me across the internet for owning &quot;hundreds of accounts&quot;. Likely projection since I don't that many (my estimate is 35-40, but that's over a 8 year period), perhaps he does though. And note he's publicly discussing his Wikipedia accounts he shares on an IP with his sister here, but made a dubious claim I doxxed his sister when I merely posted her Wikipedia account. (facepalm)[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:39, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::On that note Smith, the user account that you are using, [[User:Flight]] is a sockpuppet of a banned user. Is there any reason why this account should not be blocked? If there isn't then why even bother with a vote? Why not just proceed to blocking Smith? We can then review the block afterwards, if deemed appropriate. We have enough drama on this wiki without Smith, by allowing Smith to return we are only allowing more drama to take place here. Not good, and not rational either. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:07, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Feel free to link where Smith was banned mate. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:25, 17 September 2020 (UTC) {{ping|Flight}} I'm proud to be banned from Conservapedia for trolling, and I really love [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:DMorris&amp;diff=1504046&amp;oldid=1495433 what you wrote there as OliverS] (Oliver D. Smith) when I was blocked there by DMorris. {{quotebox|1=You should be very careful when dealing with users of RationalWiki. You were wrong in exposing yourself to them, but you were right in blocking that account. Dyskylver/Arthur Kerensa is a sock-puppet of Bongolian (a RationalWiki moderator), and also a notorious sock-puppeteer. He is also almost certainly the operator behind the &quot;John66&quot; account on RationalWiki. I can't prove any of these claims right now as so few edits have been done, but I will eventually be proved right. Dyskylver will pretend to be normal for a while like he did on his Wikipedia accounts, but sooner or later will reveal himself when he posts in support of anarchism. He is an active British Antifa and identifies as anarcho-communist. It is clear that all the accounts posting on the RationalWiki coop are accounts are operated by the same person to create the illusion of support. I also notice someone has created another sock with a name similar to the others to cause disruption here. Most likely the same individual behind this entire shit show. He is a dangerous ideologue, don't trust what he tells you. [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:DMorris&amp;diff=1504046&amp;oldid=1495433 OliverS talk 20:08, 23 March 2019 (EDT)] }} Of course there is no evidence that I'm not a sockpuppet of {{ping|Bongolian}} and there is no evidence {{ping|Johns}} (John66) isn't my account. I can personally vouch for the accuracy of Conservapedia, and of course you would never lie about me on a Trusworthy™ site, would you? {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:44, 17 September 2020 (UTC) == Ban Abd == I can't remember exactly what this guy did but allegedly trolling and doxing were involved. I think he created a blog to attack various editors after that and the validity of what he wrote there is disputed. Like Smith he was unilaterally banned by a sysop on the basis of doxing without a coop vote, so in the interests of fairness we will confirm this ban too at the same time. Remember that the vote starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority to pass. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I oppose having a vote to reinstate Abd because he has not petitioned for reinstatement of rights. It's a needless drama to rehash all of his bullshit (or anyone else's who hasn't petitioned). He appears to be a death's door according to D, and partly-confirmed by his own website. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 19:48, 16 September 2020 (UTC) === Disscussion === Seems like a wise idea, poking through history, it seems his community also was responsible for raiding RW or something? Anyway, that blog of his was in the abuse filter at some point if I'm not mistaken. Unlike Smith, I do think I can be confident in saying that blocking Abd is a good idea. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I mean in terms of damage Smith did more than Abd but yes both should be banned and this is more about procedure since both have been treated as banned for a long time and had hundreds of accounts blocked for ban evasion. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:26, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Abd Lomax is a threat to RationalWiki user's privacy and was rightly banned. He threatened to sue David Gerard and RationalWiki, he posted this on his website coldfusioncommunity in 2018 (if you want I can link to this). He later dropped this idea and filed a lawsuit against Wikipedia for banning him. His lawsuit against Wikipedia was dismissed with prejudice, but Abd claimed in this lawsuit that RationalWiki had 'defamed' him. On Abd's coldfusioncommunity website there are 50 negative articles dedicated to 'researching' RationalWiki editors such as Smith and their alleged sock-puppets. ::Lomax also doxed some RationalWiki staff on his website and some of that information is still live. Fuzzycatpotato has been doxed on Abd Lomax's website his real name and house address has been exposed. Ze is a close friend of Abd Lomax, indeed Lomax wrote on Reddit a few months ago he considers ZE like a &quot;daughter&quot;. Ze also has a discord &quot;The Treehouse&quot; and she invited Abd to join it, and made him a mod there. D/Ze have been in an online slapfight with Smith for a year spilling over multiple websites. We need someone totally uninvolved with this Abd or Smith drama to solve these matters. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 18:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I've only interacted with Abd once, but he did [http://coldfusioncommunity.net/anglo-pyramidologist/darryl-l-smith/skeptic-from-britain/comment-trolling/verifier/ post briefly about me on his site] (he did not doxx me) which brought it to my notice. He does seem to post a lot about RW stuff on his webpage. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Yeah well your like me anonymous so Abd can't get you but he tries to get hold of editors real life names, then he publishes it on his website. Does fuzzy know Abd has published his personal details? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I would vote Aye to a ban of Abd, but I've not been on here long enough. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : Abd was banned on [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Some_random_Smith Some random Smith] a suckpuppet using my surname and then editing Emil Kirkegaard's article when he knew I was involved at the time in a lawsuit with Kirkegaard. So I suspect this was an impersonation. Abd is a malicious troll and [[User_talk:Some_random_Smith#Hey_FYI|David Gerard blocked the Smith account]] recognising it was Abd. Abd falsely claims (without any evidence) I impersonate people on his blog - it's psychological projection and he's describing his own sick behaviour.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I could say the same about you. Funny how you have no self awareness, when you post obviously hypocritical statements. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: The difference is I've never impersonated anyone while Abd Lomax demonstrably has or at least he has used my surname on his sockpuppets. Who am I meant to have impersonated? And why has no mod blocked me for an impersonation? They only seem to exist in your imagination. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: D has admitted to being a [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226696&amp;oldid=2226693 friend] of Lomax. Ze is also a close friend of Abd. We need neutral users on here if any discussion is to go forward. Abd has personally harassed me over email so I am against him fully. I admit I hate this evil ol man! So I am not neutral. I suggest we all stop debating this topic and wait for the voting. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Abd is a great guy, that said, I don't oppose his ban on the grounds of doxing. Same with Smith, but Smith is actually a cunt. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 11:21, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I understand that you have a personal relationship with Abd, and I have no problem with that. Abd however is a lunatic ([[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax#Pseudoscience|pseudoscience promotion]]), a pest (repeated ban evasions), and a danger (doxing). He is not 'great'. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:04, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::That's all water under the bridge now, Abd needs banning in my opinion. Smith, however needs summary banning without a vote in my opinion. He is the sockpuppet of an indefinitely blocked user by his own admission. Why are we even wasting our valuable time feeding this troll? {{DFFT}} [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:15, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ==Invalid vote: started prematurely== '''As noted at the top of the page, since this vote did not start 48 hours after the beginning of the coop, it is therefore invalid.''' [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:11, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :This shit is so tiresome already, and we have to sit through another fucking day of this? {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 01:06, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ===Derp=== * I would settle for blocking my account on a voluntary basis i.e. post this user has decided to quit. Would I show up again? No. Because this time there was actually a Coop discussion rather than the irregular procedure of banning me via discord with no consensus or discussion. I returned to this wiki to add articles because there was no proper ban, rather, it was two problematic admins (Ze and Dysk) who banned me based on dubious allegations of doxing (I've rebutted these allegations above). There is also a repeated false allegation I libelled Ze or Dysk; yet last time I looked they're the people viciously smearing me on multiple websites as a child abuser and pedophile among many other outrageous claims. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 18:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) [[File:Tobias on kiwifarms 2019.png|thumb|500px|Smith calling the RationalWiki mods and sysops &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot;]] Smith you said after you wrote banned as [[User:Tobias]] that you would never return while calling the mods and sysops here &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot; and saying a highly transphobic homophobic, and ableist [[Kiwi Farms]] thread was true (See the image). Why are you back. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I agree, I think that Ze asks a fair question. That said I will add that I'm not in favour of anything other than a simple 2 way interaction ban on both Ze and Smith. Additionally, I think that Ze should be admonished for misuse of sysop. Everyone makes mistakes, but mistakes like that should never be repeated again. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::There's no transphobia, homophobia, and ableism in any of my comments on KF or anywhere else (not that I actually care). Furthermore it's pretty stupid to use that as a guilt by association fallacy when we both know you (Ze) are the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account I was responding to in that thread who was libelling me as a pedophile. To anyone who wants to actually check that full thread to get the context rather than believe Ze's quote-mines - notice my comment in the screenshot is only responding to &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; after I was provoked. And note how the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account identically matches Ze's posts and writing style, for example take the following comment they posted on Kiwi Farms: {{quotebox|May 18, 2019 Zionist Feminazi maybe the doxing has something to do with how her name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account and the harassment has something to do with how u went onto her talk page and discord to post threats and weird shit about the things u would do unless she redacted a wikipediocracy post to not mention ur insane brother who spends his time spamming reddit?}} To those familiar with Ze aka EK's writing style will know their usage of &quot;ur&quot;. Not only that but it matches identical claims they make here such as the dubious claims of doxing and how her account &quot;name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account&quot; (we've seen that same claim made above by Ze). Add this to the fact EK calls herself as a feminazi and elsewhere has claimed to support zionism plus that user only was posting in the RationalWiki and Mikemikev thread specifically to attack me -is rather conclusive its the same person. How many other people who support zionism and call themself a feminazi with the same writing style to Ze are there? I'm not sure how much more evidence other mods here would need. The fact they are denying this is them shows how highly deceptive they are. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::The Zionist Feminazi user on Kiwifarms is a former close friend of mine, I can confirm it's not Ze. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:32, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I would vote Aye, but 1) I'm not an eligible voter and 2) I think this proposal is ill concieved and we'd be better off if we did what WMF wikis do and implement a procedure for appealing bans that does not involve sockpuppetery. The problem with this proposal is that it encourages people who are banned to evade their bans. Hence invalidating their meaning and purpose. Not good. So if I were an eligible voter, I'd vote Nay, we're better off with the status quo, which at least wouldn't create a precedent that any ban retrospectively deemed &quot;invalid&quot; may simply be disregarded without consequence. This isn't an Anarchy, or a battleground. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:50, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't even understand whey this is a vote. Abd is a certified doxer. I'm not about to give Smith the benefit of the doubt, particularly if there is confirmation that Smith is a doxer. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Either way I think that Smith has admitted to being a sockpuppet of [[User:Tobias]] who has already been indefinitely banned. So I fully agree with you, on the basis of that evidence alone, there appears to be no need for a vote. I don't see why we can't just summarily ban Smith aka Tobias aka Flight instead of bothering with a vote, which is just a waste of everyone's time. If Smith wishes to appeal the ban, and sees it as unjust, and intends to edit there are already proper channels for doing so e.g. on his talk page (if not revoked), by email (if not revoked), or by Discord. If both his talk page, and email access have been revoked, and he is banned from the Discord server, then tough shit. That's his problem, not our problem. If that's the case then we can just ban him, then Forget It, Move On. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: @ Kiko and Bongolian - my Tobias account was banned without the correct procedure. It was banned with no discussion or vote based on a dubious claim of doxing. I dispute the doxing claim because all I did is link to Ze (aka EK) Wikipedia account. That's all I ever did. I don't consider that doxing. Ze's dubious claim is it was doxing because she had not mentioned/linked her Wikipedia account on RationalWiki. Wikipedia accounts are public. Perhaps the reason Ze acted the way they did is because their Wikipedia account is perm banned for trolling and they're a notorious sockpuppeteer - there's dozens of accounts banned under their name. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Are we going to ignore you doxing Greenrd, Occam, and that you posted Ze's full name which isn't in the Wikipedia link? Get real mate, you can focus on one thing, and there are a dozen more offenses I can list. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: You're a proven liar. Ze's full name is in the Wikipedia url I posted. A mere google search of &quot;Greenrd&quot; ''reveals his full name''. How is that doxing? This stuff is public and Greenrd connects his online pseudonym to his real name on multiple sites. Same for Captain Occam who has identified himself on blogs and forums (his real name) with his pseudonym. None of this is doxxing (revealing private information), but you know that. You've made up a tun of false allegations to smear me with. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Remarkably Smith, what you wrote there is proven lies by the suppression logs already posted on this page... I guess you are full of shite. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::: That's your and EK's usual response when you're been exposed as outright lying. &quot;It's the logs!&quot; when these aren't even viewable. And lol @ doxing Greenrd when his surname is his pseudonmyn. But I guess you're going to go back to spamming Reddit with your &quot;Oliver is a malicious doxxer&quot; crap. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od|:::::::}}Thanks for your response Smith, as a result I can now be satisfied so that I am sure (i.e. beyond a reasonable doubt) that you are the sockpuppet of a banned user i.e. Smith aka Tobias. Therefore, if I were an eligible voter I would definitely voting Aye. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 17:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :On that note, I feel that this coop will be pointless if I just block Smith to enforce his desire to LANCB. I have asked him to confirm that he desires to LANCB, and that he is happy for me to indefinitely block him to enforce his desire. If he does confirm that, then I will just indefinitely block him, and ask for this coop to be archived without a vote. Are there any objections? [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 08:36, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yes, I object. Too many people have LANCBed before only to return. And since Smith is notorious for his sockpuppetry, we need a 2/3 mob decision on whether all his current and future incarnations can be summarily banished. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 09:06, 17 September 2020 (UTC) :::I also object. Users shouldn't get away with no punishment just because they ragequit. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 09:15, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ===A summary of my actions wrongly claimed to be doxxing by EK and Dysk=== * Ze's former name on RationalWiki was EK. Those are her real name initials and she has a Wikipedia account (banned) under her real name. I linked to the Wikipedia account. * Greenrd pseudonym is his surname. All I did was Google his name and you get his full name including surname on plenty of sites. The first link on Google has Greenrd, his surname and first name (I won't here post, but its public). * Captain Occam (a banned Wikipedia troll) has identified his pseudonyms (Captain Occam, Occam) with his real name on blogs and forums. So how did I dox any of these people? Nothing I linked or posted was private information. If EK wanted to be anonymous in cyberspace why use her real name initials on RationalWiki and sign up a Wikipedia account with full real name? Based on the above false allegations of doxing I was incorrectly banned on the user:Tobias.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:49, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't think you or D/Ze should continue your slapfight on this website. It's been going on over a year on other platforms. You need to put an end to it and just agree to never talk to each other again. Users should stop arguing here and just wait to vote on the bans. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The problem is the mods or other users aren't looking at the evidence, some are uncritically going along with D/Ze's total BS and lies. I've never doxxed those 3 listed people. Anyone impartial can see that if they read my simple rebuttal above. No information I've posted is private but public.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Just because Ze volunteered her real life name on one platform, doesn't justify you revealing it on another one. Revealing her name on RW is doxxing. And you continuing to point out her real world initials should be reason for immediate block for as long as it takes until we get the permaban vote concluded. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 23:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Anyone can Google these peoples usernames and get their real life name because they are publicly attached to their accounts on other websites like Greenrd so it does not match the usual definition of &quot;doxing&quot; used in law because the information is public, not private. But there is a stricter definition of the term doxing on this website where you can not divulge any name from any external website even if it is public and connect it to a pseudonym. This sort of connecting the pieces research is forbidden. My advice is to close your account here and move on. Abd is not coming back here. You should not come back either. The best way to leave is by choice. The infighting on this website can be very toxic. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Four points as a rebuttal: :::::(1) They used their real name initials on RationalWiki. :::::(2) They use their first real name on RationalWiki-related discord chats. :::::(3) Ze claims their brother is Dysk; the latter's Wikipedia account is connected to his sisters and since Dysk has mentioned his Wikipedia identity on RationalWiki it was easy to find :::::(4) Finally, I don't use the weakened definition of doxing but the strong dictionary definition which contradicts what Coigreach said. Cambridge dictionary definition: &quot;the action of finding or publishing private information about someone on the internet without their permission, especially in a way that reveals their name, address, etc.&quot; Key word: private. EK signed up her real name on Wikipedia. How is that private? It isn't - Wikipedia is a public site. What would be doxing is if someone leaked actual private information including, for example a name behind a paywall site or credit card details. Guess what? [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 The former is what EK did to my brother] on the Wikipedocracy forum which is what I confronted them about on Tobias and asked them to retract where they did this. My brother was doxxed by a troll who put his name on the internet having paid for his information behind paywall site. My brother never released his name on any public website - yet EK went around the internet doxxing him on multiple websites. I then get banned for posting Ek's name after I was confronting them about doxxing my brother. You really couldn't make it up. Had they not doxxed my brother I wouldn't have looked into their identity and found their Wikipedia account. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 My actions were retaliatory]. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:39, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::: Ze/Abd have both been doxing your family so in retaliation you found her banned Wikipedia account name. I understand but this slap-fight has been going on too long. There is bad on all sides. Nobody is innocent here. Abd was the first to dox your family. Abd has quite an influence on Ze. I think the real issue here is him and his bad influence on some from this community. I mean it was him that started this flame war between you guys. But I am bored of this now and I going to sleep. My advice is to move on. These petty online feuds are not worth the time. I seriously think you should close your account on here. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 00:00, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::: (Edit conflict) (1) Again, it wasn't known that those were her real life initials until you brought it up. ::::::(2)I hold a strong belief that what happens in Discord should have no bearing here. ::::::(3)Just because it's easy to find doesn't mean it's justifiable to reveal. Also, what Dysk reveals shouldn't make it okay to reveal extended information about his (alleged) sister. ::::::(4)This ''is'' RationalWiki. And our more strict definition of Doxxing applies as far as the blocking policy is concerned. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 00:01, 16 September 2020 (UTC) It must be wonderful to have this much free time to spend hours doing pointless shittery, trolling, doxing, revenge bitching, online stalking and year long bickering all over the internet. Must be conducive to a truly content happy soul. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:24, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :Agreed but {{DFFT}} [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 17:40, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :: Back to reality: view my [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Flight&amp;dir=prev&amp;offset=20200908214141&amp;target=Flight user contributions]. My edit history on this wiki is adding mainspace articles - and I've added between 200 and 300 since 2012. My account Flight is only 2 weeks old, but has already made 3 lengthy articles such as [[spiteful mutant hypothesis]]. The behaviour you are describing is the total ''opposite'' of mine. I've never used this wiki for drama and I've virtually never posted in the saloon bar and with few exceptions (obviously if you exclude this coop where I protest an incorrect blocking procedure and a couple of talk pages), rarely post on non-mainspace articles. I also never joined any RationalWiki group or chat. I'm a solitary individual who never even made friends here over 8 years and only used this wiki to add constructive articles. I have no idea why people think I'm involved in shit-posting or trolling. As I said view my edit history. As far as drama, stalking or revenge bitching is concerned - Ze (aka EK) followed me on Twitter months back - I blocked them and told them to fuck off. Despite the misinformation saying otherwise, I have no interest in 'bickering all over the internet'. The only place off-this wiki I briefly mentioned my ban was on KF. My total post count there is very small and I haven't posted there for well over a year.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 18:47, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Your honesty is appreciated Smith, but the fact that you've already been convicted and sentenced, but are unlawfully at large, and clearly don't see anything wrong with your prior misconduct, are all things that strongly suggest that you need indefinite banning. This doesn't even need a vote in my opinion, a straight ban would be sufficient due process for you. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 21:57, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ==Indefinite ban for D== There is now solid evidence [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User:D D] has been looking up private IP data and using this data as a personal check-user. I also believe he has been sending that information to his friend [[Abd Lomax]] a hostile critic of this website who has threatened various editors here with legal action in the past. Even if he has not sent private information to Abd, he has violated users privacy. User Flight recently revealed this comment from D on Reddit: *&quot;''I can see the IP addresses Smith used on RationalWiki due to the fact I'm a tech there. Every single IP on a Smith account that I checked going back to 2016 or so was a VPN'' and ''I can clearly see the IP addresses Smith used on his accounts don't match his public IP address he used separately without an account. Furthermore, Smith has been recently editing RationalWiki using different IP addresses''. The link can be found here [https://archive.is/RMawd]. *D [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226696&amp;oldid=2226693 admits here] Abd is his friend and admits to trolling Wikipedia talk-pages. *Also D says he takes LSD [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226693&amp;oldid=2226681]. On Reddit D says he does much of his editing when he is high. *D is indefinitely banned on Wikipedia and uncyclopedia. Whilst bans off this website have no involvement in RationalWiki it does paint a picture that this user is a troll which he confesses to. Here D admits to trolling. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&amp;diff=2226685&amp;oldid=2226683 ''&quot;I personally remain banned from all Wikipedia projects, for trolling, and ban evasion'']. *D has been in communication with Abd Lomax for over a year. I received emails from Abd telling me he has private IP data of RationalWiki accounts. Abd has threatened to sue RationalWiki users in the past. *D and Ze invited Abd to join their discord server &quot;The Treehouse&quot; and made him a mod there. There are many chats there about RationalWiki with Abd. *Abd filed a lawsuit against Wikipedia (it was thrown out with prejudice) but in that lawsuit Abd mentioned RationalWiki as 'defaming' him [https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/14573324/lomax-v-wikimedia-foundation-inc/]. D has publicly posted on Reddit and Wikipediocracy that he supports Abd's lawsuit. *Here D admits nothing he posts is true, [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&amp;diff=2226689&amp;oldid=2226686]. Is this someone we want on the board of trustees? * The abuse of tech rights is outright ban offense. This is violation of privacy. Totally unacceptable. On any other wiki, this would not even be a vote. You need an indefinite ban on this user right now. Apparently tech rights has now been fixed so IP/s can not be seen but it is way too late. Privacy has been violated here. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 21:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::I fully agree, and would happily vote Aye, however I'm not an eligible voter. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 21:54, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::I wouldn't be in favour of banning (talking to Abd on Discord, taking LSD and being banned from other projects are not bannable offences). But I will say that [https://archive.is/RMawd comments Dysk made here] are extremely damning, and a very serious breach of tech privileges. I'd support re-looking at whether Dysk should have tech rights. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 22:00, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::: The ban is over the breach of tech privileges which violates privacy. The Abd link is very suspect but I have known about that for months. His behavior in regard to the IPs is absolutely unethical and outrageous. The trustees need to take action and suspend this user. I don't see how this can even be up for debate. Pinging the other trustees {{ping|GrammarCommie}}, {{ping|LeftyGreenMario}}, {{ping|FuzzyCatPotato}}, {{ping|Tmtoulouse}}, {{ping|Spud}}. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) ::::: If D isn't permanently banned, then I fully agree with RWRW on that one. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:11, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::In my opinion banning is not necessary, but tech removal is on the table. The ''suspicion'' of this sort of thing played a major role in removing tech rights from Oxy.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 22:17, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Yep - immediate loss of tech rights followed by vote on a ban. But who gives a shit about LSD? I've edited this site under influence of many substances. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:20, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::I've donned my mod hat and removed tech rights pending discussion about said rights. I think the offense is serious enough for immediate action. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:21, 16 September 2020 (UTC) {{od|:::::::::}} Fully agreed Ace. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:27, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :As far as I'm concerned, only the tech rights abuse is actionable. I don't care who D is friends with, nor what substances he abuses. I mostly edit when drunk. In fact I'm drunk right now. And extra wiki douchebaggery should be unpunishable 99.99% of the time :That said, the tech rights abuse is serious enough to warrant major punishment. I agree with Aces decision to unilaterally strip Dysks tech rights. The same should be done to Ze, who also admitted to the abuses. Furthermore a long block is warranted, even if permaban might be a bit too much for my liking. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 22:35, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::I'm somewhat tipsy already and it's 10:36am and I am in my office with the door closed. But yes - loss of tech rights is the least we can do for now. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:37, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Some of the evidence given is besides the point, if not particularly flattering (e.g. editing on acid). The IP issue is the crux of the matter and I think it is damning. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 22:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I agree Coigreach. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:45, 16 September 2020 (UTC) : I can dig up another Reddit comment in the same thread (I need to go through 100+ comments though...); an anonymous user asked Dysk for a specific log/IP detail of a RationalWiki account, and Dysk's response was he would give it in private (by private I assume email or the private message feature on Reddit). The main person Dysk has been discussing and likely giving IP data to in that [https://archive.is/RMawd Reddit thread] is [[Emil Kirkegaard]] who posts on Reddit as Deleetdk. There is no doubt the pseudonym Deleetdk is Kirkegaard and the Deleetdk account identifies as Emil. Deleetdk appears [https://archive.is/weUzS in the thread at least once.] The allegations by Kirkegaard and Dysk I use VPNs is false. Whatever IPs Dysk was discussing and presumably leaking (if they weren't public IP edits) to Kirkegaard weren't mine but other editors, though my real IP he probably gave to Kirkegaard but I've publicly edited on it on this wiki. lol. That's how stupid their false claim I use VPNs is.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:02, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::Can confirm that Deleetdk is openly Emil Kirkegaard - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 23:18, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Someone asked me for my opinion on this? Sure, whatever, have at it. Dysk doesn't show good judgement, that's not news. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 23:40, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Yes, by all means proceed with disciplinary action against D. ::::But I'd like to make it clear at this point that it is still my considered opinion that Oliver D. Smith is a horrible person just like the vast majority of his many online enemies are horrible people too. I think his ban as Tobias was legitimate and he shouldn't be editing here using another account now. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 00:48, 17 September 2020 (UTC) Is there any evidence d and ze are different people? Several other websites say they are the same person, do they need two accounts on here? [[Special:Contributions/82.132.231.117|82.132.231.117]] ([[User talk:82.132.231.117|talk]]) 09:22, 17 September 2020 (UTC) :There is no evidence, if anyone decides to post any I will ban them. Alright? {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:23, 17 September 2020 (UTC) === Statement by Dysk === Since Smith and Johns are now both openly lying about obvious facts, I'm gonna address a few points. * I've already pointed out that I did have access to IP addresses, that many of those belonged to Smith because he was doing most of the vandalism, and that I considered using it as a Checkuser. This much is not in dispute. * It has been claimed that I &quot;looked up IPs&quot;, this is simply not true. I saw IP addresses while dealing with the edit filter, as I rewrote all the filters here in 2019, added some new ones, and generally improved the false positive rate. At the time it wasn't possible to check the filter details without seeing IP addresses. I have a near photographic memory and after a time working on the edit filter, realised there were repeat patterns in who was trashing the wiki quite by chance. After this I discussed whether a checkuser capability would be possible or desirable, it was concluded not. * It has been claimed that I shared information with Abd Lomax, this is untrue. If Abd did get logs from this site that wasn't from me, and didn't happen on my Discord server. My involvement with Abd, was entirety related to his lawsuit against the Wikimedia Foundation, during the course of which we became friends. * It has been claimed that I shared information with Emil Kirkegaard, this is untrue. The only time I spoke to Kirkegaard he called me a traitor to western civilisation and threatened to murder my family. I have not been subsequently inclined to speak to him, although I followed his lawsuit against Oliver Smith. * It has been claimed that I shared information with an anonymous user on Reddit, this is not true. While talking to an account claiming to be &quot;The Real Oliver Smith&quot; on Reddit, I discussed whether Smith had used VPNs, my opinion on the matter was informed by my memory of his IP addresses from the time I'd worked on the edit filter. This user reached out to me in private to ask what information was accessible, but they were unable to verify their identity, and the conversation ended with no information disclosed. * It has been claimed that I edit this wiki while high, this is accurate. I don't believe that my ability to edit is substantially affected by this fact, indeed I'm currently smoking marijuana while writing this. * It has been implied that I have at some point recorded IP-Data from this wiki, this is untrue. At no point did I write any IP addresses down, record, or share with others any private information. * It has been claimed other tech users, such as Ze, and Oxyaena, and others I will not name, have accessed IP-Data. This is partly true. All current techs that have worked on the edit filter, will certainly have seen users IP addresses. There is no evidence that any tech took note of this, except for Oxyaena saying she did on the mod noticeboard. Users such as Ze, and The Crow, were aware of the IP address visibility, but there is no indication they misused this access. Ace has decided in his infinite wisdom to jump the gun and remove my Tech bit, again, despite the fact the access in dispute isn't possible now. Meanwhile others such as Spud, are posting in favour of removing all Techs and appointing new ones, as if there is an unlimited supply of people that do shite here. I personally believe that this is counterproductive to the maintenance of the wiki. Furthermore, I believe that rehashing shite that was throughly discussed and resolved months ago is a waste of time. Nevertheless it's up y'all to decide what to do with your time, carry on. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 11:29, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ::Ace, in his infinite wisdom, had the support [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation#D_and_tech_rights of every single current moderator]. Probably the first time I've seen the mod team all agree on something in quite some time. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 11:42, 17 September 2020 (UTC) :::Clearly, a shared sense of laziness considering the reasons are 90% made up by a troll, and nobody noticed they weren't true. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 11:45, 17 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&diff=2227375</id> <title>RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&diff=2227375"/> <updated>2020-09-17T11:41:26Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* D and tech rights */ <hr /> <div>{{mod talk header}} &lt;center&gt;[[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive_List|Archives for this page]]&lt;/center&gt; {{#tag:inputbox| bgcolor=transparent type=fulltext prefix=RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation break=yes width={{{width|60}}} searchbuttonlabel={{{label|Search the archives}}} }} [[File:Moderator.jpg|thumb]] __TOC__ &lt;!-- write below this line --&gt; == Requesting input on CS interpretation == Okay, I'll just keep this short. As a part of [[RW:BLOCK]], we forbid bigoted material being posted on the wiki, which warrants a block. To this end, I've attempted earlier today to clean up three Saloon threads because two BONs inserted blockable crap as threads (a Comicsgate website and a [[Ludwig von Mises Institute]] article that goes &quot;racism doesn't exist, but hating on men does&quot;) and the third one being a Steven Crowder video on how Trump deserves a Noble Peace Prize. I'm not here to ask about that last one, given it was duplicitous anyway. Rather, Hastur appears to have restored the other two, saying &quot;if I don't like it, just ignore it&quot;. What I am in effect asking here is that in the event that we block someone for posting bigoted crap, is it okay to then also ''remove'' the bigoted crap. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 19:57, 10 September 2020 (UTC) :I would argue that this particular BoN's posts don't meet the standard of what is block/removal worthy. If we can't handle a link to the Ludwig von Mises institute, we have a problem--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 20:20, 10 September 2020 (UTC) ::Agreed. {{User:GR/sig}} 20:21, 10 September 2020 (UTC) :::I am content with just placing the troll posts in a nice &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{collapse}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; block. —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:15, 10 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I disagree with the use of the collapse template. I think its use ought to be discouraged--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:16, 10 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Yeah, there is an excessive use with the collapse template. It should be used conservatively and, instead, it's used all the time. {{User:GR/sig}} 23:28, 10 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::We shouldn't be seen as giving a platform to people who say, &quot;racism doesn't exist but hating on men does&quot;. That definitely should have been collapsed. Don't worry about using the collapse template too much. If crap needs to be collapsed, collapse it. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 00:12, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Or don't be so stubborn and just revert it. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 00:30, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::: Or literally don't revert or remove it because the talk page policy states you may only remove &quot;obviously vile trolling&quot; and &quot;spam&quot;. Brx is right. In fact, nearly everything brx has said for months is right. What the fuck. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 03:38, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Yeah fuck man, what the fuck? Brx has gone from that vile bastard who shits on your lawn during their morning jog to a valued voice. It just shows how low some people have dragged this site when Brx becomes reasonable. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 04:04, 11 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::It's not my fault your lawn is so poorly maintained it looks like a gas station toilet--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 04:11, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::My God...next thing you know Satan will sin the Nobel Peace Prize!!! [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:26, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :I protected the Saloon Bar for 9 hours. I don't mind him spamming us a few times a week but clearly this troll must have gotten a particularly mean wedgie from the boys at school today, and feels the need to compensate for his insecurities extra hard. --[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:42, 11 September 2020 (UTC) ::Oh, so that's who Hastur is. I had wondered. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 05:57, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::That's Brx alright. Funny he used to be such an annoyance but now I kinda like him. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:20, 11 September 2020 (UTC) ::::You could also just clean up the shit on the floor, instead of letting it sit there and fester. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 02:30, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Oxyaena already being hostile/aggressive after getting sysop back. Hopefully the people who voted to give her sysop back will rein her in (sarcasm: they won't and they don't care). {{User:GR/sig}} 02:57, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I don't see how that's aggressive or hostile, but okay. It's just blunt, but, anyways, as always: {{dftt}}. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 03:21, 13 September 2020 (UTC) == Editwarring on the [[Leo Gura]] page == It's happening between two sysops (Machina and HairlessCat), and it has been going on for days now. Request input by the mods. {{User:GR/sig}} 00:48, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :Agree. We've already discussed on the talk page how it needs to be edited to be less verbose and that being a justified measure for change (I said I would edit it tomorrow). Although, I suspect Machina's changes are indeed more ideological in nature and not related to the prose at all, which'd be why Machina's not waiting a tad. [[User:HairlessCat|HairlessCat]] ([[User talk:HairlessCat|talk]]) 00:59, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::OK - I have protected the page as it is now. Hash it out on the talkpage please. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 01:18, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::{{ping|Machina}} You might want to respond to this here. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 01:22, 13 September 2020 (UTC) The additions I removed were more about legitimizing woo or crank ideas, so they weren't relevant to the topic. It's not important what drugs he took or what he felt as a result, especially since the only evidence for any of his claims is personal experience from drug use. The segment on the incompleteness theorems seems like a bid to led Leo's interpretation credibility even though the article linked mentions that such an interpretation is incorrect (in that case why include it). The study linked for psychedelics increasing rebellion is not what the study says at all. If it were Deepak I would slightly understand since he is a big name who literally influences far more than Leo. But that page rightly calls him out for what he is. The edits on the Leo page seem like they were either written by Leo or some apologist to give him some credibility when all he has is personal experience for his woo. The edits I took out were irrelevant to the whole topic, if others BESIDES Hairless feel that this is in error I will side with that judgment, especially if it's the mods. Otherwise I see no reason to admit I was wrong. I mean even the callout on the talk page shows Hairless is too close to the subject matter to give a clear view of it.[[User:Machina|Machina]] ([[User talk:Machina|talk]]) 02:26, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :A person having a mental breakdown that stops them from believing in woo is pretty important, and the Godel quote is actually meant to show where he is mistaken on that matter. This isn't a conspiracy to whitewash the page. I'll fix the prose evening ETC. On the sixteenth of September once things cool down. [[User:HairlessCat|HairlessCat]] ([[User talk:HairlessCat|talk]]) 14:42, 13 September 2020 (UTC) == Request for IP suppression in Edits == I mistakenly edited a page without logging in properly and left my IP on a page. Is it possible to delete it?--[[User:Nessundorma|Nessundorma]] ([[User talk:Nessundorma|talk]]) 03:07, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :Yes, but I think you are making it worse by notifying us. Otherwise it would just be a random IP editing a certain page and that be it. Unless there is a significant privacy risk, I don't think the mods or techs will heed your request, though. {{User:GR/sig}} 03:10, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::Easy fix. Just post the edit and we can make it like it never existed. Or email it if you want to take an extra measure of privacy--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 03:17, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Yeah, if you really want it removed, it's best to email the IP address to a moderator to make it less obvious, but if for some reason someone is watching recent edits, they might be able to figure it out anyway. Don't forget the [[Streisand effect]]. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 03:35, 13 September 2020 (UTC) == Raven == I request an interaction ban, he's going out of his way to troll me and, as per the terms of my probation, am requesting moderator assistance because I feel I can't handle this in a civil manner. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:13, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Saloon_bar&amp;curid=77683&amp;diff=2225557&amp;oldid=2225555 It would help if you didn't try to troll him]--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:15, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::{{dftt}} &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:18, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Not a mod, but Hastur, that doesn't really constitute &quot;trolling.&quot; Oxy is trying to abide by the terms of her probation. Grow up, please. [[User:RoninMacbeth|RoninMacbeth]] ([[User talk:RoninMacbeth|talk]]) 05:21, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::{{ec}}[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:Oxyaena&amp;curid=201740&amp;diff=2225636&amp;oldid=2224122 Why did you remove this?.] Anyways, de-escalation is one thing, but it's really the least we can ask of you to not try and needle Raven and then get offended when he responds in kind--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:22, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I asked why you egg Raven on, you said &quot;because it amuses me.&quot; You're no better than him. Get off your high horse please. You're actively hindering efforts to deescalate things. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:23, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I offer my observations. I derive amusement from all sorts of discourse. Adding commentary to your interactions with Godless Raven is much like adding commentary to WIGO:CP--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:28, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Grow up. Your &quot;observations&quot; only serve to inflame tensions even further. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:30, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Oxy, please try to just ignore Raven. I know your terms of probation are to inform mods instead of taking action yourself but please try to ignore Raven. Do not engage with him. That should be your first action to take rather than running straight to a mod. As a mod, and I don’t think I’ll be alone in this, I’d rather watch you be the bigger woman and walk away. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:49, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::To be clear, {{ping|Ace McWicked}}, Oxy attacked me first. Check Hastur's link. {{User:GR/sig}} 07:54, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::I don’t give a fucking shit who fucking attacked who. Raven, just fucking ignore and refuse to engage Oxy. Oxy, stay the fuck away from Raven. Jesus fucking Christ - this is like moderating my 6 year old daughter. At least she understands enough to stay away from the kids that are mean to her. What’s your fucking excuse? [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:14, 13 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} Yeah, bothsiding this won't help. Treating the reactor the same way you treat the instigator is a bit smoothbrained. but eh, sure, I'll stay &quot;away&quot; from Oxy. Don't forget that she is on probation, not me. {{User:GR/sig}} 09:09, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :Raven, for awhile there I was totally on your side. But no longer. Stop. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 09:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::I would like to see a solution that ends this endless fighting/cooping/pleading-for-rights-restoration. I don't think I'm the only one who's quite tired of it. If the solution is a stay-away agreement that both parties agree to, that's great. Otherwise, I would support whatever it takes: permanent sysoprevoke for one or both parties, or permaban. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 16:19, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::I don't think that's necessary, the whole reason I came here was because of me abiding by the terms of my probation. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:24, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Then why did you remove it, {{ping|Oxyaena}}? [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:Oxyaena&amp;diff=2225636&amp;oldid=2224122] This was part of the probation that you were supposed to undergo. {{ping|Bongolian}} The permaban was rejected by the mob in the last coop. If you want, you can start a coop to sysoprevoke me, but that would be quite funny because I didn't abuse my sysop tools to sysoprevoke me in the first place (unlike Oxy, who, according to Nutty's stats, has systemically abused it). {{User:GR/sig}} 17:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::{{ping|Ace McWicked}} &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 17:37, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I just want to point out that my recommendation of adding it to her profile page was just that, a recommendation so both she and the mods wouldn't forget. It wasn't ever added to the sanctions, so she's technically not required to do it since it's not a part of her sanctions (can't say why she'd remove it tho...). Anyway, GR, please stop stirring shit just because you don't like Oxy, or else you could be looking at an interaction ban, because you're just stirring shit up to get her angry. Hell, even ''Ace'' told you to stop doing this on your talkpage and here we are ''again'' on what I'm pretty sure is just the same subject. Cut it out. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:46, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Crow, nobody asked you. Shut up. {{User:GR/sig}} 18:12, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Crow is right. Just because nobody asked doesn’t mean crow can’t have an opinion. Raven, you’re burning any good will you had. Move on, fucking end it. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 18:15, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Raven. Stop. Leave Oxy alone. Do something else. Jerk smack, go for a walk, whatever else you want to do - you’re not making friends here. Just stay the fuck away from Oxy. Oxy, please do the same. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 17:55, 13 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}Yes, the permaban was rejected before, but given the frequent history of you two appearing in the coop, there's a reasonable likelihood that you're both going to burn all the good will you had to reinstate you. I'm not planning to coop either of you. I'm just saying that you two should stop causing shit shows for your own good. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:55, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :I`m merely abiding by my probation terms. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 18:59, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::Oh I really like that term &quot;jerk smack&quot;. Urban dictionary has an extremely descriptive definition of the term. It's quiet evocative and I dare say even poetic. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:09, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Urban dictionary is wrong. To jerk smack means to shoot up heroin. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 19:49, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Interaction ban that goes both ways would be acceptable to me. It'd be better if GR and Oxy would do it voluntarily without involving the mob. My respect for the first of the two to stop responding to the other ones provocations will increase exponentially. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 19:16, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I do think that you could've handled this better Ace. Perhaps a polite request to GR to stay away from Oxy, followed by a request that Oxy also do the same with GR would've gone down better? I can see Oxy's point, and I fail to see why she needs to stay the fuck away from GR. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:57, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Ace doesn't do politeness really well. But other than that [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:GR&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2225701| he did exactly] [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Oxyaena&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2225704| what you asked there.] {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 21:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::{{ping|Kiko4564}} If I was impolite it is only because this has been going on for ages. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 00:14, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Yeah fuck this burning trashfire. lol {{User:GR/sig}} 02:05, 14 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}Another day, another 'retirement'. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 02:20, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :We should start up a scoreboard for the most fake retirements. Maybe we can even offer a free t-shirt for whoever has the record by 2025![[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:44, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::I’m proud to say in my 12 years at RW I’ve never pulled a LANCB. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 05:38, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::Well if you're interested in experimenting a few of us could harass the shit out of you until you LANCB! Limited time offer. Just say the word :) [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:10, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::That wouldn’t work on me - I can give it back twice as hard and secondly I’m adept at ignoring it. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:26, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Really? Even if I call you a big stinky doe-head? [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:03, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Suggested prizes for most number of LANCBs ::::*First Prize: permaban (wish granted) ::::*Second Prize: sysoprevoke for life (next best thing) ::::*Third Prize: 1 week block (longer than you have probably ever LANCBed) ::::*Participation Prize: free joke block, chosen by a committee of never-LANCBers ::::[[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:19, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I'd say those prizes are generous. Are you personally funding them out of your own wallet Bongolian? [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:03, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Agreed, LANCB is now a cliche in my opinion. It should be LAMCB (Leave And Maybe Come Back), as that would actually mean something. Thanks for your politeness, and civility when dealing with Oxy, Ace. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 10:40, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::SABWBBTW is maybe more accurate (Storming Away But Will Be Back This Week) [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:41, 14 September 2020 (UTC) == Request to inconvenience an ip range == Particularly there's a persistent ip address in Saloon Bar with string 2001:8003:59DB:4100 that's spamming right wing links. Can we get a 1-week range block to inconvenience it? I prefer this over a page protection. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 07:21, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't have an objection per se, but it would simpler to put a 1-week protection on the Saloon since that would not require a vote. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:30, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :: I've seen an ip and a relative new user use that page, so I'm a bit hesitant barring them. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 07:40, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::A vote is required? That seems absurd to me. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 10:38, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I would vote in favor of a short range-block, if I can be assured a range block won't blot out a whole city or something--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 10:39, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I would vote Aye too, but I'm not an eligible voter. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 10:49, 14 September 2020 (UTC) 2001:8003::/32 seems to be the range. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Block/2001:8003:0:0:0:0:0:0/32 I note it has been blocked before.] {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 21:11, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :If a range block is unacceptable, what about using the edit filter to limiting this range's edits to once a day?--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:25, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::This works too; just do anything that can limit the ease of sharing links. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 01:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::How about the vandal bin for this IP range? &lt;s&gt;That way it will be limited to editing once every so often. I know this isn't normal, but this is an IP range, not just a single BoN.&lt;/s&gt; [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:38, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::We never vandal bin IPs. People in the bin stay there indefinitely until someone cares to remove them. Too easy to accidentally leave IPs in there forever, which can impact innocent people. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Agreed, that is a bad idea. I've striked out most my above comment, as those arguments are clearly invalid. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:04, 16 September 2020 (UTC) == Was I ever banned from this wiki? == See the discussion [[User_talk:DuceMoosolini#Smith|here]]. To make a long story short: one admin &quot;D&quot; started blocking my accounts as well as blocking many accounts I ''don't'' own (incorrectly tagging them under my name) after I confronted them about their behaviour and harassment a year back. As far as I'm aware there was no consensus to actually ban me from RationalWiki (or if there was it was manipulated by &quot;D&quot;), secondly, the ban doesn't work because I add valuable content on new accounts (I've been editing on Flight for 10 days and have already [[Patriotic Alternative|made]] [[Laura Towler|three]] [[Spiteful mutant hypothesis|articles]]) and come back and do the same thing on a new account — when I feel there is an important page that needs to be added to this wiki — like the [[Spiteful mutant hypothesis]]. If someone wants to take a look at what the harassment I confronted &quot;D&quot; about looks like (that has been going on now for ''over a year'') they can see [https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiInAction/comments/ggmjv5/banned_wikipedia_troll_captain_occam_real_name/fqr3bjk/?context=3 here] (&quot;D&quot;s Reddit account is virtually dedicated to libel): {{quotebox|Furthermore, the claim that Smith is mostly retired is contradicted by the many hundreds of accounts he's created on RationalWiki. Around 80 accounts a year since 2013. I don't necessarily have a feud with Oliver Smith beyond the fact he's a '''nationalist, anti-natalist, XXXXXXXXX, serial doxxer, cyber-harrasser, XXXXXXXXX etc'''. It would be truly difficult to imagine how I would even start character assassinating such an obnoxious person, he does it himself by simply existing.}} Needless to say none of these defamatory claims are true but I've had to deal with this crazy person run across the internet for the past year calling me everything from a paedophile, child abuser, child rapist, transphobe, psychopath, fascist, nationalist or far-right extremist on not only Reddit, but Discord, wiki-related forums and allegedly in emails where they are libelling me to others. Note &quot;D&quot; is not even consistent with the lies they post about me, for example they claimed on Reddit I created 80 accounts a year since 2013 (560 accounts) yet contradict themselves on a recent [[User_talk:DuceMoosolini#Smith|talk page]] claiming I own approximately 150. What happened to the other 400 accounts? [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:01, 14 September 2020 (UTC) : For clarification I've owned around three dozen accounts since 2012. Claims of hundreds of accounts, 150 or 560 are a wild exaggeration.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:48, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::Contrary to the quick closure done by {{ping|D}}, I want to point out that there has been no due process for Smith. Rather, Smith appears to have been speedily banned after he [[RationalWiki:Articles_for_deletion/Emil_Kirkegaard|filed AfDs for pages he created]], after admitting he'd gotten into legal trouble with some idiots and he didn't want RW to get into trouble. Dysk seems to then have gone and banned him outside of the mob, which in accordance with basic CS rules meant it had to be raised and '''voted on by the mob''' to get Smith permanently banned. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus While it was raised in ATIM], there was never any consensus reached on getting Smith banned. As a result, I feel that Smith does not currently preside under the rules that would constitute a permanent block, and it would be desirable for the mob to consider doing that vote now, because as is, there is no grounds to block Smith or any of his alts. Furthermore, I also call into question the competence of {{ping|D}}, who in this link appears to have admitted to using the Edit Filter as an outright alternative to CheckUser (tech rights technically allow for this, yes I need to bother David over this and yes I've been lazy in doing that), which is a fairly blatant abuse of rights given our rules surrounding the fact that we don't use CU and using AbuseFilter as a way around this is scummy as fuck. ::Finally, {{ping|Bongolian}} there is no need to block out &quot;XXXXXXXXX&quot; and &quot;XXXXXXXXX&quot; here. These are words Dysk said on that subreddit. I've undone the suppression of those edits. ::Because I was not specifically involved in whatever incident originally led to Smith getting his ass kicked (from what I know, not many a tear was shed over his departure), I will personally refrain from voting for this, but we have to respect basic procedure here. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:45, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::''who in this link appears to have admitted to using the Edit Filter as an outright alternative to CheckUser'' I've long thought this was the case. In which case - anyone using the edit filter to check IP's should have tech rights removed immediately. I suspect Oxy used this feature too. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 20:35, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::I do not like Smith, and will openly state that I would vote to ban him if it came to that. However, it is better to go through the proper procedures, lest a mistake allow him and his drama to remain. {{User:GrammarCommie/sig}} 18:00, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::{{Modhat}} The citation that was given by does not contain that text. It is indeed potentially libelous, as we don't know with absolute — just reasonable — certainty that this is the same Smith person. Reinstating the text is inadvisable, to say the least, because I hid the edits that showed it. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:39, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::It does contain that text. In fact, it's a literal cite (the only change is the removal of a newline, which might just have been the result from copy and pasting) from /u/Dysklyver (which is rather obviously Dysks' reddit handle). I would argue that we can say with enough absolute certainity that this is the same Smith, given that this user is arguing that he shouldn't be blocked, and his arguments are based on the assumption that he is Smith (which combined with his spiel on Duce's talkpage would indicate that he is Smith), which would be really weird if he wasn't actually Smith. Anyway, to prevent wheel warring, I won't bother to undo these suppressions. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 19:03, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::From what I have seen Dysklyver was originally on friendly terms with Smith. Dysklyver then became a close friend of [[Abd Lomax]] (who is banned here) and Lomax turned Dysklyver against Smith. On Reddit there has been a Dysklyver/Abd war against Smith and vise versa going on for over a year. They create countless petty threads against each other with accusations of sock-puppetry. Dysklyver has tech rights and he can see the IP address/s of created accounts on here. D has got a list of IP addresses from RationalWiki accounts which he claims match to Smith's geographical location (he's admitted this in a Reddit post) so he can apparently identify Smith by private IP data. Abd has repeatedly published private IP data on his website accusing Smith of owning hundreds of sock-puppets on this website. This is obviously a privacy violation. Mikemikev also has a history of impersonating Smith and he is also somehow involved in this drama. :::::: Abd is a prolific sock-puppeteer himself, and globally banned from Wikipedia for doxing users. I don't trust any of his data. Dysklyver/Smith are both good editors. The real issue here is Abd Lomax, he appears to have a heavy influence over Dysklyver and responsible for the Dysklyver/Smith drama. BTW I am somehow loosely connected to this 'drama' by Lomax who still accuses me of being Smith and posts about 1 million essays on his website about my account, however unlike other users he has accused of being Smith I have never engaged any of his nonsense off this website. I don't care what people write, but private IP data thing is out of order. Abd is untrustworthy and should not be given private IP data or logs from this website. The man is a menace. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 21:44, 14 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} {{ping|Johns}} Neither myself nor Smith are good editors, what the fuck are you talking about? Abd Lomax is half gone after covid, two strokes and a heart attack, you can write him off good as dead. Not that anyone was planning to send him obviously private IP-Data, except for you apparently. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:52, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : Abd boasted a couple times a while back that he has technical data proving who owns many rational-wiki accounts but he can't publish on his website for obvious reasons. As you are a friend of his I was thinking it might have come from you maybe even accidentally. But who knows. I don't believe Abd about many things but I do believe he has seen some private ip data from this website. He wanted to use the IP data in his amended lawsuit complaint but it was dismissed. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:45, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Should we hold a full vote to confirm the ban?=== {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 18:35, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :No. Oliver Smith was permabanned. If Smith wants to appeal that ban, that was entirely the wrong way to go about it. If he thinks he was unjustly banned, he should: :#Take any off-wiki disputes with D or anyone else elsewhere, and not bring them up here. :#Confess to all of his puppet accounts and list them out: they were all ban evasions. :#Give a full explanation of why he thinks he was unjustly banned, including thorough citations. :[[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 19:16, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::Oliver Smith was not permabanned in accordance with our CS. He was blocked outside of our regular procedures by Dysk and aftewards there was no vote on him getting blocked, just some amount of yes-nodding and the closest to a consensus was a private agreement between Oxy and RWRW. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 19:20, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::The community standards weren't as rigorously enforced back then, RW was a different place. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 19:32, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::For anyone wondering, this 'agreement' between myself and Oxy is referenced to [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus here]. It was something like 18 months ago so I can't remember the conversation, but I don't deny that it probably happened. I don't think there was ever a formal vote to ban Smith so in a sense Crow is right about that, in a sense he's just been considered 'de-facto' banned. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 19:35, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::What was the first Smith account that was banned? I thought it was much older than 18 months ago. David Gerard banned an account years ago for impersonating Smith (it was Mikemikev according to him). [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 19:40, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Earliest Smith account that I've found was User:Krom, which was abandoned in 2015. I can't find any Smith account that was permabanned before February 2019 by Dysk (though I could be mistaken, he's had so many different accounts that it isn't easy to keep on top). {{Ping|D}} might know if there was any more. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 20:13, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::: D can see IP addresses on here for accounts so I am not sure how that works in regard to privacy, it can't really &quot;work&quot; because it is a violation of privacy. Can he check old edits and logs and get IP data from accounts created years ago? On most wikis CU data goes to about 6 months at the most, but I am guessing this is different. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 22:11, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Techs can only see IPs of users who proc the filter, which from what I know doesn't have expiring logs. (And yes this needs to be fixed.) I can't say for certain right now, in part because I obviously can't publicly spell out our anti spam tools (would be circumventable), whether or not any Techs have made lasting filters that would log every edit/account creation. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 22:36, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::: I believe it has been misused and there is a privacy violation. Dysk has admitted to collecting private IP data on Smith's RationalWiki accounts. Various private data and logs were sent to Abd Lomax (Lomax is a mod on Dysk/EK's discord). How do we know other private data is not being leaked off this website? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 22:45, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::We need to hide IP's even from techs. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 23:13, 14 September 2020 (UTC) : There are untrue claims by Dysk I use VPNs or TOR. I've never used one or tried to conceal my home IP-address here or anywhere else and anyone who can check IPs will see I'm not using a VPN now. Also note if you go back years I used to edit here publicly on my home-IP. That wouldn't make any sense if I was a VPN/TOR user trying to hide it. As for listing incorrect reasons for why I was banned - I did that on another page and this has been mentioned above by The Crow - the block was outside of regular procedures by Dysk/EK/Ox on Discord. The account they banned was [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Tobias Tobias] in May 2019 based on false allegations I doxed EK who Dysk has claimed is their sister. I never did dox, but linked to EK's public Wikipedia blocked account. According though to EK/Dysk the fact I posted a Wikipedia url is &quot;malicious doxxing&quot;. I suggest mods who can look through striked (deleted) content see [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Tobias my edits]. To summarise I was banned for no valid reason whatsoever. All the other accounts of mine Dysk has blocked such as Krom came after Tobias.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:17, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::Are we burying the lede here? People have been using edit filter to gain IP Address information? This is about as anti-RW as it gets and you lot are just going to gloss over that? [[Special:Contributions/203.54.149.190|203.54.149.190]] ([[User talk:203.54.149.190|talk]]) 00:45, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I am with the BoN here. RW has been '''strictly and stridently''' opposed to IP checking since it's inception. Anyone doing so should be kick-banned immediately with prejudice. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 00:48, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Well it is too late now, it's been going on for about six months or so, maybe longer. I know this issue has been raised several times before on here but no action was taken. I have only just realized how bad this is. The geezers who run this website need to be informed. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 01:11, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I believe that we went over this issue before, separately with both D and Oxy, who both denied that it took place. If anyone has any evidence to the contrary, let's have it. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 01:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I looked through the edit filters. I don’t see anything that looks like a pseudo-checkuser. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 01:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::OK - cool. I'll take your word for it. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 02:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::D has admitted to using filter IP data to ban a number of alleged Smith accounts. I've seen the filters, and though I haven't gone through the log data to confirm any blocked IP addresses appear there, I'm not sure why I'd doubt his claim. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 02:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) Mhm let's see; :- I blocked a lot of accounts and IP addresses as sockpuppets of Smith over a year or so following the doxing incidents. The vast majority of these were admitted accounts, with a few blocks based on obvious behavioural similarities. :- While at the time of blocking the relevant accounts I was unaware of the fact IP addresses were visible I later discovered this by accident, and mostly out of curiosity, used this feature to check the IP-Data on several accounts I'd blocked in the past. :- The IP-Data appears to remain recorded forever, I looked at some random edit filter events from the distant past and the IP-Data is still there. :- I considered this for a while to be a potentially useful stand-in for checkuser, although I never used it at such as it was unnecessary to do so, somewhat difficult to use, plus I felt that was likely to be not appreciated by others (despite not being technically against the rules). :- I later used the fact I'd seen several items of IP-Data, to tell Smith to fuck off and stop lying on Reddit during an argument. Smith's reaction was as if I had access to a Checkuser equivalent tool, and in the absence of any documentation explaining how limited this feature is, I encouraged that thought to wind him up. :- Despite John's claims, Abd has never seen any IP-Data, isn't a mod on any relevant Discord, and no IP-Data from this site has ever been externally recorded. Indeed except on a few occasions nobody has bothered to even look at it. :- While Oxyaena was a Tech here she became aware of the method to access IP-Data, and used it to check the IPs of Morris accounts to an unknown extent, I never asked for details on this. :- In some attempt to fix this edit filter loophole, I posted on David's talk page nearly four months on 18th June asking for this to be fixed, it has not been fixed at time of writing, IP-Data is visible to any Tech that wants to see it, although I haven't personally bothered for many months. :- Some months ago, when I'm not sure exactly, I discussed this on Discord and it was agreed to be a major site security flaw. Although only those with shell access can fix it, me and Ze later closed many edit filters to the bare minimum to avoid users tripping them unnecessarily. For example no Autoconfirmed, Autopatrolled, or Sysop flagged user will trip a filter. :- I have discussed the IP-Data concerns on Discord with numerous users, including The Crow, Nutty, Oxyaena, in addition to informing David who replied to my comment about it 4 months ago and is aware of the issue. I believe this covers the main points of discussion, if I missed anything let me know, I'll reply when I get back here at a later date. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 06:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I fucking knew Oxy was IP checking. I knew she was lying. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 06:53, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :{{ec}}I see that you raised [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:David_Gerard&amp;diff=2194294&amp;oldid=2154282 such concerns] around the same time that you [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:David_Gerard&amp;diff=2194294&amp;oldid=2154282 admitted to checking IPs.] I'll admit, I'm conflicted about all of this. On the one hand you're competent as a tech and seem to have a genuine interest in improving the site. However, abusing the trust of the community to see other users' IP addresses is a serious issue. I shall await to hear further arguments before throwing in any sort of judgement. It would help if you could 1. explain your relation to Abd and 2. explain why you've been banned by Wikipedia et al. Some may see this as irrelevant offsite drama but personally I feel that the more knowledge we have the better we'll be able to make decisions.--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 06:56, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::{{ping|Hastur}} Abd is a friend, I was banned from Wikipedia for trolling the admin pages. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::It would be useful for {{ping|David Gerard}} confirm this information to the extant that he can, and to hear his opinion if he cares to give it. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I have no idea about any of this and haven't even verified that the edit filter method of IP checking works - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 16:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I never checked shit, you're all basing this off hearsay by Dysk. I never checked IPs, I don't even know how to for Christ's sake. Fuck you, {{ping|Ace McWicked}}. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 07:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Why are you angry at me? I'm going by Dysk. Be mad at him. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Okay so since I spend some amount of time yesterday looking at filters to see if there are any &quot;strange&quot; ones that might have the goal of blocking users randomly, I feel like I can step in here to point out a few things. :::::* Oxy became aware of this while being a tech, by learning about it from Ze, who apparently learned it from you, who claimed at the time that you &quot;showed me but its not that easy to use&quot;, although I cannot verify whether she figured it specifically how to do it. Unfortunately, whether or not she used it to check Morris' IP addresses, I am not sure (I will add that she vehemently rejects doing it, but also see my last bullet). The unfortunate part is that if you have access to the Filter, you have access to the IPs (again can and should be blocked). There is no rights elevation or anything needed to see this at the moment. I can at least ensure the following things: :::::* There have not been any blanket filters designed to catch literally everyone, no matter what for more than 60 minutes. Some have existed, but looking at history and how they ended up, these appear more of a case of hitting submit too soon rather than deliberate right abuses. Basically, [[Hanlon's razor|don't assume malice to that which can be adequately explained by stupidity]]. :::::* There are no logs for looking at filter logs themselves, which I suppose makes sense, but it means we cannot audit if someone looked at IPs by looking at the filter log. :::::* There ''are'' a few strange filters, one of which appears to still be active today, which simply tag users with a specific tag, but don't do much else, which appears weird at first but on second thought appears to be based around the obsessions of certain users. To be clear, most of that filter appears to be fairly generic &quot;this is likely vandalism&quot; stuff, it's just that there are a couple of words which appear to be designed to catch certain types of blocked users, some of whom are related to the case at hand. :::::* Did Dysk conclusively access user IPs? Well, I'll leave that up to the rest of the mob to decide. The filters history is mostly circumstantial evidence, I'll freely admit. On Reddit, he claimed that he did. Here, he claims that he didn't. I can't find any conclusive logs that he did. That said, being in a position where you ''can'' access this stuff, it usually is a bad idea to claim you did, so it's best to not go around parading that you accessed any users' IP, which arguably Dysk violated. YMMV. :::::Hope this answers some of the questions that a lot of people appear to be having. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 07:39, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::: {{ping|D}} the discord I am talking about is called &quot;The Treehouse&quot; (also known as the Wikipediocracy discord) which you and ZE invited Abd to and made him a mod on. The original discord was made for banned Wikipedia editors or critics of that said website but it has since branched out for general discussions. Abd wrote in regard to yourself and this discord &quot;''I was '''invited''' to join the Wikipediocracy Discord, and that is where I was given mod status. Nice people!''&quot; (you can Google search this quote from Abd to find it as I don't wanna link to his hack website). In this discord server there a place called &quot;The Smithery&quot; you created, where ZE, yourself and your friend Abd do &quot;researches&quot; into Smith and his alleged RationalWiki accounts. I don't think we should deny these facts. Anyone can log in there and verify these things. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 18:17, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::{{ping|Johns}} I'd like to see evidence of what you wrote about this &quot;Treehouse&quot; if you don't mind, I don't recollect it, could be the LSD... {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:38, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od|:::::::}} No I don't think we should hold a full vote. I wouldn't support a ban if I could vote, I can't as I'm new here, but I don't think we need a coop either. This isn't a case of HCM, this is a case of someone allegedly called Smith (a banned user) allegedly returning under a new identity to allegedly evade his ban, and avoid scrutiny. We just need a summary investigation of this allegation, and appropriate action taken. If this guy is Smith, he is a banned user, and he is returning to evade his ban, then we just need appropriate action taken. Otherwise no further action is necessary. As Bongolian claims to be sure that this guy is Smith, I would say that he can go ahead and take action himself, providing that he is sure i.e. satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that this guy is Smith, and that he is evading a ban. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:46, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::That guy claimed he was Smith. I have no other evidence. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Why not just proceed to ban him on that evidence alone? I don't see why we need any more. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 17:50, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ===Checkuser/IP checking=== Dysk has said he used it and Oxy used it. Oxy denied it however we [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive16#Checkuser have this exchange] where Oxy was very vague about it. Plus Oxy's frequent blocks of Morris as ban evasion which she did on ''multiple'' occasions. It doesn't look good. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:44, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't see what's &quot;vague&quot; about it, I was grasping at straws there. I never used checkuser. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 08:06, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I’m not talking about checkuser - I’m asking about using the edit filters to match IP’s which a) can be done b) you alluded to during an exchange and c) Dysk claims you have used it. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I never used it. I lied about using it. LGM saw that clearly. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 08:17, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::So it’s possible, you knew it was possible, said you had used then said you lied about it, now Dysk says you have used. A lot of conflicting claims and circumstances...this filter needs to be closed at once and I don’t think Oxy, Dysk or EK should be techs again. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:22, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::{{ping|Spud}}, {{ping|RWRW}}, {{ping|Bongolian}} - some more mod input would be good here. I think we need these edit filters closed and new techs appointed. It just ain’t good enough as it stands. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:44, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Yes, it looks almost certain that Dysk and Ze know how to use the edit filter to view IPs. I'll say that Oxy's version is difficult to believe given that Dysk claims she knew how to do it and she herself once said she knew how to do it. To his credit Dysk did inform David, but this is many months after these IP checking accusations started floating around. :::::::Crow's post above mentions that a suspicious edit filter is still active, it seems to have no useful purpose and should be closed right away. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 10:22, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Man, I’ve been poking around this issue for a whole fucking year. It’s the whole reason I came back because something didn’t seem right. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} It's not possible to access the edit filter details page without seeing the IP it's on the same page and you need to check the details page to check for false positives. The problem isn't that techs see the IP address as every tech who worked on the edit filter will have done that, the problem is whether that information was used to identify who owned various vandal accounts, or whether that's a conspiracy theory started by Dysk and Oxy playing troll games with Smith and Morris. Also new techs won't change anything because the information is still there and peeps will still see it. As for closing the edit filters, I can if you want but you will have to deal with the 15k spam bots posting ads everywhere. {{User:Ze/?}} 09:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :So when Oxy (Or any other tech) says they don’t know how to view IPs that is incorrect and they see them as a matter of course? It’s what you do with the info - I.e IP matching - that is the issue? And what do you mean about a conspiracy re: troll games? I’m just trying to understand how this works. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 09:34, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::The only way to not see the IP address is to not visit the details page, which would imply not bothering to check if the filter is working or not. A tech could avoid seeing the IP address if they weren't doing anything new with the edit filter tho because then they don't have to check. ::What I mean by troll games is that Dysk has always said his reddit posts are just to annoy people so aren't necessarily accurate imo, meanwhile oxy openly admitted above to lying in her comments about the edit filter and morris so that's probably not accurate either ::the vast majority of the time troll accounts don't trip the filter so imho it's not actually possible to use it as a checkuser type tool anyway and anyone claiming they have is vastly exaggerating what they can do with it. I've used checkuser on other wikis and it gives a lot more information including browser and device and cross referencing with other accounts by IP and metadata and without that you cant do anything useful. An IP address on its own is basically useless, so unless someone collected a lot of them, which would need a broad filter we dont have, there is no checkuser like capability. ::the IP addresses shouldn't be visible tho this needs to be fixed asap and the fact it's been brought up several times before and nothing happened is cringe. {{User:Ze/?}} 10:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Right - what I’m trying to establish is in what way tech rights can be abused given we have techs guilty of rights abuse in the past (Oxy is one of these - she has been put in sysoprevoke for such issues). Yes - this IP issue needs cleaning up immediately and I think Oxy and Dysk should never hold those positions again. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::My point is that nobody has abused the tech rights in relation to this. One of the root users at some point granted techs the ability to see private IP data, but no techs have collected or published it so the point is moot. If the point is that seeing the IP data is abuse then the blame lies with the root user who enabled it (probably trent) not with the techs doing their appointed task subsequently. {{User:Ze/?}} 10:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::OK, well I’ll be careful around accusations of abuse - I just wanted to know if it could be abused. And it has annoyed me that subsequent techs (in particular Oxy) have been very... murky and vague, when asked direct questions. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:39, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::I think there is the potential for the tech access to IP addresses to be abused and at various points Dysk and Oxy did intend to use it as a checkuser but this didn't happen mostly because it doesn't give enough information to be useful. The lack of information on the filter is mostly because nobody talks about it openly as people would read it and circumvent it if they knew exactly how it worked. {{User:Ze/?}} 10:49, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Well, if Dysk and Oxy discussed using it in this manner then they would have been actively tried to subvert one of RW strongest codes of ethics. If true - it’s no fucking joke... [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:52, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Is there any evidence you can provide that Dysk and Oxy discussed using an edit filter or something similar to create a checkuser type of ability? [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} Yes I can prove it, Dysk posted it on this page even: ::''I considered this for a while to be a potentially useful stand-in for checkuser, although I never used it at such as it was unnecessary to do so, somewhat difficult to use, plus I felt that was likely to be not appreciated by others (despite not being technically against the rules).'' In [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226423&amp;oldid=2226377 this] post. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:10, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::And Oxy? You said at various points - you mean away from the community eye I take it and without the communities knowledge? I’m finally putting some pieces of a puzzle together that I started putting together a year ago - this is why I am interested. I may be brusque, drunk, swear all the time but I have RWs rich history and traditions at heart - and IP matching/checkuser/anonymity is a huge deal. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I have uploaded [[:File:FilterDetailView.png]] and [[:File:FilterLogView.png]] for clarity. I recognize that this is a conversation that a lot of non-techs will be looking into, and as a result they might not be aware on how the interface looks (for reference, clicking details in the LogView image sends you to the DetailView image in the actual interface, and examine lets you run other filters against certain edits for testing). I've censored as much identifying information as possible to prevent this from getting tied back to any user in particular (the only visible thing is the specific filter they triggered, which uh... this is one of our public filters although it got disabled earlier today). One thing not really visible here is that you can filter the Log view specific to the user on whom an action was taken, on what page they attempted something and what filter might have been triggered. I hope this helps clarify a thing or two for any non-techs poking in. I've marked relevant information to this situation with a red background. Before anyone jumps my gun, I used a BON edit for this example, so y'all don't have to be scared I'm looking at your IPs or whatever. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 11:22, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::OK - as it stand I think {{ping|Oxyaena}} and {{ping|D}} have to answer some questions here. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::There are Discord channels with combined nearly 3 million posts dedicated to this site that you never really got involved in. All the existing mods and techs hang out on Discord and routinely talk about the site, even new techs like Crow are heavy discord users. So if you define the community as just the wiki then yes 90% or more of the decisions and talk are happening elsewhere. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::I joined Discord a few months back because I heard rumours about what was being said behind closed doors. This has always happened in one form or another of course but it seems Discord had a shadow “steering committee”. So I joined. Note for the community - I have talked about this issue, the techs and IP matching in Discord, and have strenuously advised that all discussion about this be made on wiki for the sake of transparency. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:45, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::You joined the support chat and maybe the old main chat(?) there are multiple channels that you aren't on where as much or more disscussion happens. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:55, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Well, shit man. I can’t be every where at once. Either way - my position is the same - all RW business should be discussed here. You wanna bitch about a user on Discord? Go for it. But policy reminds on RW always. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:57, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::Anyway - midnight here and I have work tomorrow. I’m sure there’ll be plenty for me to read tomorrow. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:59, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::I was interested in it and thought it may be worthwhile, I wasn't aware such a thing was that big of a deal. I never actually went through with it however. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 13:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::::So what I've said is still true. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 13:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::::Oxy, you're full of shit - I don't think you should ever hold tech again and this will be the reason. Can someone, anyone, actually address getting the edit filter fixed? {{ping|Ze}}, {{ping|David Gerard}}, {{ping|Spud}}. Fucking anyone? [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 21:05, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::::::That's the thing, isn't it? You don't know for sure, there's no hard proof one way or the other. Don't be so hard to reach for conclusions when there is no hard evidence available. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 23:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::::::What we do know for sure is that you lie. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:35, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::::::::What’s ironic is that you used say you blocked for ban evasion which I thought was based on some kind of basic checkuser but you said it was by picking up patterns of behaviour. Now it’s your own patterns of behaviour which cause people to not trust you regarding the use of extensions to fashion a rudimentary checkuser. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:41, 16 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} Only root users can change the site configuration to hide the IP address details, {{ping|The Crow}} is more knowledgeable on the subject than me, he could perhaps assist David with the required changes. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:45, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :Look, I don't think Oxy should have her tech rights back. Certainly not any time soon. But that isn't even being discussed right now...or wouldn't be at least if Ace hadn't brought it up. Tech is a special user right that only few people have here (someone who knows, feel free to provide the actual number of people who are techs). I voted to give Oxy the sysop back, because we give sysop to basically everyone who isn't serious trouble. Hell, even an asshole like [[User:RobSmith|Nobs]] has a mop. I understand that Oxy got hers taken away because she was seriously abusing it, but she has demonstrated more decency recently and thus got it returned. :But Tech rights are, as I said, a very special user right. And I don't think Oxy needs one to feel equal to the rest of us. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 23:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Sorry to be late to this. I had a very early night last night because I haven't been feeling well. I can't disable the edit filter because I don't know anything about that technical stuff. All I can really say is that I share Ace's concerns. And it still looks to me like the best thing to do is disable the edit filter and appoint all new techs. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 00:13, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Are techs an elected position? Maybe they should be, but I'm under the impression that basically anyone can become one if they meet the requirements (knowing how to code and what not). We need a certain minimum number of techs anyhow. Removing tech rights from Dysk and Ze should be resolved in the coop. As far as I understand, none of the other current techs are at the moment under suspicion of abusing the edit filter as an improvised checkuser. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 00:26, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::No techs are not an elected position. And yes, they should be. But yeah, you're right. Removing tech rights from D and Ze should solve this. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 00:31, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::They're a partially elected position, but Dysk and Ze were both grandfathered in under the old non-rules (aka &quot;promoted cuz another mod/tech liked you, and nothing else&quot;). To be a tech, you just need a mod/tech/operations manager to say &quot;yeah, you're competent&quot; and then win a simple majority vote from the community. There's no term limit. This got updated in the CS recently. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 08:20, 16 September 2020 (UTC) Okay so I don’t really know what this edit filter thing is but I’m very concerned bc I’m pretty serious about my privacy and shit. Does this mean anyone who is tech can see my IP, or only if I make some type of “Filtered” edit??? And would I know if I had made such an edit? If so, how? Should I use a VPN to edit from now on? And finally, I would like to ask that if any tech has seen my IP for ANY reason, please let me know. I know it might sound paranoid but I’ve put a lot of info about myself here and there and I’d rather nobody is able to connect those dots. Thanks. {{User:Penguinsfunnylolhaha/sig}} 00:40, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Sorry, sorry I went to bed yesterday right as this exploded it seems. Okay, so fixing this is pretty easy. {{ping|David Gerard}} all you need to do is go to LocalSettings.php on the server, find the line that looks like this: &lt;code&gt;$wgGroupPermissions['tech']['abusefilter-privatedetails'] = true;&lt;/code&gt; and change the &lt;code&gt;true&lt;/code&gt; to &lt;code&gt;false&lt;/code&gt;. This would prevent techs from accessing &quot;private details&quot; (reference my screenshot up above, &quot;private details&quot; is just the &quot;Originating IP&quot; field, so no other data ends up being lost over this that techs could need for testing the Edit Filters). {{User:The Crow/sig}} 08:17, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Thanks Crow - you have been a big help here. And so nearly ends a year long campaign (of sorts) of mine. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:37, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::: Dysk has been repeatedly making claims like this across Reddit and other websites: {{quotebox|'''I can see the IP addresses Smith used on RationalWiki due to the fact I'm a tech there'''. Every single IP on a Smith account that I checked going back to 2016 or so was a VPN.}} {{quotebox|'''Smith routinely uses VPNs to the extent that he has on occasion used multiple ranges from different countries on the same day'''. It's a pointless waste of time to even try and block IP addresses he uses.}} {{quotebox|I've posted evidence of what I said here on previous occasions. '''I can clearly see the IP addresses Smith used on his accounts don't match his public IP address he used separately without an account. Furthermore, Smith has been recently editing RationalWiki using different IP addresses, for example on the Emil Kirkegaard article'''. So obviously you are lying.}} These are [https://archive.is/RMawd comments he posted on Reddit] and there's dozens of similar posts he made. The allegation I use VPNs and have used VPNs from different countries is completely false and he's lying. I've never used a VPN here and I've even edited as my public IP on numerous occasions - so it makes no sense I would try to mask my real IP when I've publicly posted on my IP for years and never tried to conceal it. But Dysk was feeding lies I use VPNs to Emil Kirkegaard who shows up in that thread and that is who he was responding to. Anyway, my complaint is Dysk has been claiming and even boasting he IP-checks people's data and passes this on to other people including Emil Kirkegaard - shouldn't he be Cooped? In my opinion he has broken multiple rules. Take also into account the fact I exposed all this a year ago which is one of the reasons why Dysk and Ze teamed up to ban me without any vote or correct procedure - since I had raised these concerns about IPs a long time ago.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:02, 16 September 2020 (UTC) : With this new information in light, Dysk should be immediately banned from RationalWiki for violation of privacy. I have started a coop case. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Chicken_coop#Indefinite_ban_for_D] [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 21:45, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::I disagree, we should have a vote on the matter. That said I would still vote Aye, but I can't vote as I'm not an eligible voter. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:35, 16 September 2020 (UTC) == The page I created was deleted == {{ping|Jeh2ow}} deleted the page I created: ([https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Log/delete Deletion log]) 11:25, 15 September 2020 Jeh2ow (talk | contribs) deleted page Draft:Very fine people Hoax (Hopelessly off-mission: Extremely false) It doesn't seem to me that the [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Deleting rules about deletion] were followed, and anyway I dispute the deletion. I have a partial backup of the page, missing the last section. Also, I cannot write in the Saloon Bar anymore, I don't know if it is related to this matter.[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 12:17, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|Pam}} Even if Trump never said that Nazis were fine people (which he did, mind you), this still is a hopelessly off-mission topic and isn't really helpful to RationalWiki. I just had to deal with a regressive leftist who compared [[Stephen Fry]] to [[Osama bin Laden]], and I need a break to focus on my classwork. Don't even think about restoring this page.&lt;span&gt;— [[User:Jeh2ow|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;'''Jeh2ow'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk: Jeh2ow|&lt;font color=&quot;Blue&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Damn son!&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 13:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::{{ping|Pam}} Saloon Bar was protected by LGM yesterday due to excessive spamming. Only Autoconfirmed users can edit for the next few days. Apologies for the inconvenience. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 13:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::User doesn't have sysop or any other rights, so they can't recreate the page. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 13:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|Jeh2ow}} Trump did not say that Nazis were fine people. The page you deleted had a detailed analysis proving so, by showing the video and transcript of the conference. But of course it is impossible to have a discussion about that if you literally delete the arguments of one interlocutor. What you had to deal with Stephen Fry and your classwork is unrelated and you should not bring it to this thread. :Anyway, there are rules about pages deletion and I think there have not been respected. Also, I should be allowed to dispute a deletion by showing to other users and moderators the actual content of the page, while now I cannot. [[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 14:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :The article makes a fair point about something the media has gotten wrong for obvious reasons, and frankly I think it's at least as tangentially missional as stuff people have gotten in big fights over here, but it will likely stay deleted for reasons. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 14:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::The material in the deleted draft warrants no more than a brief mention in [[Donald Trump]] or [[Rhetoric of Donald Trump]], and certainly not a standalone article. As written, the draft made partisan, contentious and controversial statements. —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:11, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::{{ping|Nutty Roux}}{{ping|Cosmikdebris}} How can you see the deleted page? Is there some backup on RW? I ask because I cannot see how any discussion about the deletion of the page can be done if people cannot see the page that was deleted. :::{{ping|Nutty Roux}} What reasons? :::{{ping|Cosmikdebris}} What &quot;partisan, contentious and controversial statements&quot; did I make? Quote some of them.[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 15:34, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::{{ping|Pam}} Sysops can check &quot;deleted user contributions&quot;. Even suppressed contributions can be seen by mods or techs. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 15:50, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Pam, everyone but you can see the page because they're sysops. Cosmikdebris' assertion is it contained partisan, contentious, and controversial statements. No point in arguing with facts or asking him to demonstrate his claims because you're a new user and he's not. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 15:54, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :All right, so at least sysops can see the deleted page. :{{ping|Nutty Roux}} I know Cosmikdebris' assertion is that the page contained partisan, contentious, and controversial statements, why are you repeating that to me? I asked Cosmikdebris to quote statements that she/he believe to be &quot;partisan, contentious, and controversial statements&quot;. I doubt new users cannot ask to argue with facts. Also, you did not answered my question: &quot;What reasons?&quot; [[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 16:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I hear this one a lot so I don’t wanna spend a long time refuting it. If you wanna watch a YouTube video [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4T45Sbkndjc this one] does that for me pretty well. Otherwise, I’ll just outline the arguments quickly and then not participate any further in the discussion bc it’s been done to death. 1) The “very fine people” thing was not the first thing trump said about the protestors — he previously gave a speech in which he didn’t identify or specifically condemn the nazi types at all, and only gave the “fine people” speech where he did condemn them several days later. 2) I can’t see the deleted article so idk what (if any) news sources it cites, but the ones from reputable sources (eg NYT, NPR, whatever) that did call him out do, in fact, mention that he said “I don’t mean the nazis” and quote him saying so. 3) The UtR rally was explicitly organised as a far-right/neo-nazi/neo-confederate rally — take a look at the guest speakers, organisers, and advertisements for it for evidence. 4) There were no “fine people”/non-racists there, because non-racists don’t show up to protect a confederate statue and then march along with huge quantities of nazi symbols, slogans, confederate flags, Richard Spencer, David Duke, and so on. 5) Drawing any kind of equivalence between that kind of rally and the people protesting them is egregious and fucked. 6) The news sources calling out trump’s bullshit mention these things and these are the specific problems they have with him. So put simply, the media didn’t get it wrong, Trump only condemned the racists after previously refusing to, the rally was explicitly and inherently racist, and the news organisations were rightly calling out Trump’s attempts to whitewash an openly fascist rally attended by a domestic terrorist, as well as his drawing of a false equivalence between that and people protesting against that. You’ll can do what you want I guess but I would very strongly advise against restoring an article that’s further propagating a bullshit myth designed to further rehabilitate the image of a fascist rally and a president who attempted to obfuscate its true nature. [[Special:Contributions/49.182.47.130|49.182.47.130]] ([[User talk:49.182.47.130|talk]]) 16:10, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I think 49.182 above has summarized very nicely the issues I have with the draft article, and in a broader sense, the &quot;partisan, contentious, and controversial&quot; components of this issue. —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::{{ping|Cosmikdebris}} 49.182.47.130 cannot see the deleted page since he is not a sysop, and anyway she/he did not commented about it. I ask you for a third time: Please quote which parts of the deleted page are &quot;partisan, contentious, and controversial statements&quot;[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 16:44, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::It's right there in the name. Calling it a hoax. It's not hard to insinuate the rest of the page from there. In fact, I'll point out that even in your deleted quotes, all Trump has been doing is deflecting the question, and instead just says they ''should'' be condemned and his &quot;very fine people on both sides&quot; comment is the closest he gets to actually expressing a real moral judgement he can make, which... not a good look in the ''slightest'', so it's not a hoax to claim that this is his most direct value judgement on the neonazis on UtR. Anyway, this is a blatant [[PragerU]] talking point and we can debunk this into infinity if we really wanted to, but the BoN did it better than I ever could and that's without them even having to see the page. Get a bit more creative than repeating points made by hacks like Dennis Prager. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:46, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|The Crow}} Did you actually see the deleted page?[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 17:51, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I would personally have left the page in draft space. I saw it, I don't think it would have been worth keeping. While Trump did not directly call neo-nazis fine people and claimed that not everybody at the rally was a white supremacist (a hell of a stretch, because I can't imagine a cause where I'd be willing to attend the same demonstration as neo-nazis), we don't need an entire article dedicated to semantic arguments proving it. If you want to add a clarification to the Trump article or even [[Unite the Right]], you may do so- assuming the information isn't already there.--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 17:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::The problem with the page was two-fold. 1) It is not a hoax: Trump factually said it. At best, one could argue that it was quote mining by the media. 2) The reason that it was not even quote mining is that the UTR rally was created expressly to unite a diverse group of Nazi-aligned ''Arschlöcher''. So, Trump said there were some fine people among this group. It's not even quote mining because even ''The Daily Stormer'' called the whole bunch of groups Nazis. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|Bongolian}} If Trump factually said that neo-Nazis included &quot;very fine people&quot; then give me the quote. You can't because he never did. He condemned neo-Nazis and explicitly said he was not talking about them before, after, and during the &quot;very fine people&quot; sentence. Also, not all people against the removal of the statue were neo-Nazis. That was very well explained (with sources) in the deleted page.[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 08:16, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::Okay, jfc, so you’re saying someone could be anti-nazi but still show up and be okay associating with a rally that included, amongst various other things. 1) Flags/banners primarily consisting of swastikas, confederate flags, and various nazi symbols. 2) Richard fucking Spencer as a guest speaker. 3) Marching columns chanting “Jews will not replace us” and “blood and soil”. 4) Massive groups chanting “sieg heil” and “gas the [anti-Jewish slur], race war now”. And so on and so forth. Have you seen &lt;I&gt;any&lt;/I&gt; footage of the rally? How could you show up, see the kind of shit that was going on, and think “I’m okay associating with this” unless you were okay with fascism? Either you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about, or you’re gullible enough to believe someone who showed up to the rally then said “I promise I’m not a fascist”, or you are trying to justify an openly racist rally — which, I think it bears repeating, was also attended and supported by a fascist terrorist who drove a fucking car into people because they were anti fascist. Either way, I’m sorry, but &lt;I&gt;anyone&lt;/I&gt; making this argument is either misinformed, wilfully ignorant, or actively lying. BON 49. and others in this thread have gone into detail describing how you are wrong, and yet you have not responded to these arguments. Put simply, you have been spoon fed the actual facts and chosen to ignore them. For this reason, I do not think there is any further reason for anyone to try and argue with you. You want people to think there were non-nazis there? Show me some fucking proof. Post it here, in this thread. Otherwise, not to be rude, but I would encourage you to shut the fuck off, and I would encourage everyone else to ignore this person and stop acting like their bullshit is worth debating. I’m sorry if this sounds rude or aggressive, but defending the UtR rally — one of the most brazen displays of fascism I’ve seen in the 21st century — is something that just makes me very mad. {{User:Penguinsfunnylolhaha/sig}} 08:46, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::{{ping|Penguinsfunnylolhaha}} '''You want people to think there were non-nazis there?''' No. You did not even understand my claim. Probably you are another one who is commenting without having read the deleted page.[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 13:17, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::My shithouse browser keeps fucking up so I’ll keep this short. 1) Your article does claim that there were non-nazis there. Your first source is someone saying “I was there and I’m not a white supremacist”. [https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQRPJzIC-gy7w5cQWvXDOdeoxhlzJzfRIzFzw&amp;usqp=CAU Bull] [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RIrcB1sAN8I Shit]. I’m sorry but if you associate with a rally consisting of that much open nazism, fascism, etc., then you are a racist. End of story. Your second source says “62% of Americans don’t want to take down statues”. That is almost completely irrelevant. 1) We’re talking about people attending the rally with all the swastikas, David Duke, Richard Spencer, etc., not just people who personally like confederate statues. 2) 62% of Americans supporting something doesn’t make it not racist. Tell me why it’s so inconceivable to you that 62% of Americans might have at least one racist belief. Finally, I’m just going to point out that you 1) don’t quote the news sources you mention, because they actually DO quote him “condemning” neo-nazis. They just point out, correctly, that there were NOT very fine people at the fucking White Supremacist Rally. As well as that, 2) you don’t mention Trump’s [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5y6h1rEB3bU first] press conference where he did NOT condemn neo-nazis etc. Now I can’t imagine &lt;I&gt;why&lt;/I&gt; you might not choose to mention it, especially after being told about it a billion times — real mystery there. But it is maybe something worth mentioning? These points have been made to you a thousand times now, so I’m getting the impression that you are either being wilfully ignorant or just straight up lying. Again, I’m trying to say this politely but honestly? I would appreciate it if you could please stop repeating your bullshit over and over and respond to people’s criticisms, or just admit that you’re not going to listen to anyone else and then shut the fuck up. Thank you. {{User:Penguinsfunnylolhaha/sig}} 14:24, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::{{ping|Penguinsfunnylolhaha}} '''1) Your article does claim that there were non-nazis there.''' Yes, but that's not the main claim of the page. The main claim of the page is that Trump did not call neo-Nazis very fine people. If there were or there were not only neo-Nazis is irrelevant, but just further information (see explanation later). :::::'''Your first source is someone saying “I was there and I’m not a white supremacist”. Bullshit. I’m sorry but if you associate with a rally consisting of that much open nazism, fascism, etc., then you are a racist.''' :::::What you are missing is that &quot;being there&quot; is different from &quot;associating with neo-Nazis.&quot; One can protest the removal of the Confederate statue without being a neo-Nazis, white supremacists, or white nationalist. :::::'''62% of Americans supporting something doesn’t make it not racist. Tell me why it’s so inconceivable to you that 62% of Americans might have at least one racist belief. ''' :::::Where are not talking about people with at least one racist belief. We are talking about neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and white nationalists; and, no, 62% of Americans do not belong to such categories. :::::Anyway, who was at the event is not the point. See the part: &quot;Furthermore, even assuming that all the people at Charlottesville who were against...&quot; :::::'''They just point out, correctly, that there were NOT very fine people''' :::::As above. :::::'''2) you don’t mention Trump’s first press conference where he did NOT condemn neo-nazis etc.''' :::::The hoax is that Trump called neo-Nazis very fine people at the Trump Tower press conference. What is said on the previous conference has zero relevance.[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 15:11, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I’m going to say one thing and then stop responding because debating at all is very stressful for me and I don’t think we’re getting anywhere. All I’ll say is that, “assuming everyone there was a white supremacist” (which is pretty close to a correct assumption), it should be extremely obvious that calling any of them fine people is calling white supremacists fine people. Saying he doesn’t mean the racists when the racists are all there were just means he was lying about who was and wasn’t racist. If you’re going to respond, please do not ping me or expect me to participate. I do not want to. Thank you. {{User:Penguinsfunnylolhaha/sig}} 15:21, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ===Read before commenting=== [[Essay:Very_fine_people_Hoax|This is the page]] that was deleted by Jeh2ow. Do not comment unless you have actually read it. The last section is missing because I did not backup it before Jeh2ow deleted the page. Moderators should be able to restore it.[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 13:25, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :I've read it, and Jeh was absolutely right to delete it. That dreck is anti-missional and intellectually dishonest.{{User:Summa Atheologica/sig}} 16:04, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::The last section in your reposted essay is exactly the same as the last section in the last edit recorded in the deletion logs. So, in the name of transparency, the essay is identical to the last revision posted to the now-deleted main space article on RationalWiki. ::I don't have any problem with posting the article in the essay space, but I do not believe it belongs in the main space in its present form. —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:10, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::I copied the last section to the essays talk page after Pams post here and they deleted it from there after adding it to the essay because the talk page comment was messing up the references[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User_talk:Coigreach#Further_Explanation]. That's why it's currently identical to the last version of the deleted draft. I personally don't have a problem with the deletion of my post, even if it goes against the rule about deleting talk page comments. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 16:18, 16 September 2020 (UTC) == Violation of block policy == To the attention of the moderators {{ping|Ace_McWicked}}, {{ping|Bongolian}}, {{ping|RWRW}}, {{ping|Scream!!}}, and {{ping|Spud}} I was blocked by Coigreach: ([https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Log/block Block log]) 09:34, 16 September 2020 Coigreach (talk | contribs) blocked Pam (talk | contribs) with an expiration time of 3 hours (account creation disabled) (A very fine person) This is a clear violation of [[RationalWiki:Blocking_policy|RationalWiki's blocking policy]]: ''Blocking should never occur if somebody is attempting to discuss an issue in a reasonable manner. Blocking is not to censor alternate opinions, but to prevent disorder. For instance, if someone makes an edit that is not that bad but you personally disagree with it, then you should not block them, as you will most certainly be promoted for doing so...'' ''Blocking should only be used if somebody is maliciously editing a page or pages, as explained below.'' What are you going to do about it?[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 12:57, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :I've left a message on his talkpage officially giving him a slap on the wrist. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 13:17, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::Fair enough. My apologies Pam, won't do it again. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 13:26, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Apologies accepted.[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 13:28, 16 September 2020 (UTC) == Violation of rules about Essays == To the attention of the moderators {{ping|Ace_McWicked}}, {{ping|Bongolian}}, {{ping|RWRW}}, {{ping|Scream!!}}, and {{ping|Spud}} DuceMoosolini edited [[Essay:Very_fine_people_Hoax|my essay]] without my invitation to do so. This is a clear violation of the [[Essay|rules about Essays]]: ''Discussion is encouraged on the talk page of each essay but the essay itself should not be edited without express invitation by the original author.'' I ask my essay is restored in its original form, removing DuceMoosolini's edit.[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 16:52, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :That is ridiculous. The &quot;drive-by&quot; template is completely appropriate to use when some proto-fascist bootlicker decides to spew lies on this website. In fact, that's why it was created.{{User:Summa Atheologica/sig}} 17:00, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::The content of your essay was unmolested. We merely gave it an appropriate label. You may, of course, contest said label and try to hold a vote but I guarantee you you'll be disappointed with the results--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 17:01, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Not a Mod - but templates, categories and such like have always been considered to be separate from the words of the essay itself.[[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|&lt;sup&gt;&quot;Life is short and (insert adjective)&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 17:02, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::This is a non-issue. —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:23, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Agree - this is not an issue. Your essay remains - all that was added was a template to let the reader know it does not represent RW. Move to strike. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 17:37, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|Ace McWicked}} '''Your essay remains - all that was added was a template to let the reader know it does not represent RW.''' False. It was added the template 'drive-by' that says that my essay is &quot;spam&quot;. Every essay has by default the template 'essay' that says that the content is the author's opinion and do not represent RW. I'm fine with the template 'essay'. What I am asking to remove is the template 'drive-by'. I checked the first 20 essays and none of them has the template 'drive-by'. :As already mentioned, editing another user essay without its permission is a violation of the rules about essays. Also, putting the label &quot;spam&quot; above another user essay is obviously against constructive dialogue, since suggests to other users that the should not read it.[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 20:26, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::Oh, bugger off! If you want it totally 'unedited', stick it on your home page ([[:User:Pam]]); that's what it's there for. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:41, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Fuck off Pam. Put it in your userspace. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 21:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::{{DFFT}}&lt;s&gt;, please be civil.&lt;/s&gt; [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:02, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Please don't ever tell me to 'be civil'. I'll do and say as I please. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:17, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Fuck off Kiko. Beat it to your safe space. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 22:15, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|Ace_McWicked}} User space is not for essays. If it is such a 'non-issue' I wonder why it is so important that my essay is labeled as &quot;spam&quot;. I also wonder how this fit into the [[RW:Constructive dialogue|RW constructive dialogue]].[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 08:07, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ::Your user space is whatever you want it to be (within the bounds of reason). You '''are not''' going to get your way so, you know, either develop your essay within your user space and when complete ask someone to look it over (who knows, maybe you'll make a convincing argument) or stop complaining. This is a battle you can't win. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:30, 17 September 2020 (UTC) == D and tech rights == I have unilaterally, as a mod, removed Dysk's tech rights as per his admission of going over private IP addresses. I think the claims in the chicken coop as serious enough for immediate action pending further discussion. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:23, 16 September 2020 (UTC) {{ping|RWRW}}, {{ping|Spud}}, {{ping|Bongolian}}, {{ping|Scream!!}} [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:30, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :I concur. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 22:40, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :Yup! [[User:Scream!!|Scream!!]] ([[User talk:Scream!!|talk]]) 22:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :I also approve. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 22:49, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :Yes. That was absolutely the right thing to do. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 00:33, 17 September 2020 (UTC) I'd recommend removing Ze's tech bit, too. At a minimum, &quot;they're&quot; acting in concert. More likely, though, &quot;they're&quot; the same person. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 01:27, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ::OK - removed it from Ze also - if any other mods have thoughts on this let me know here. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 01:30, 17 September 2020 (UTC) : Disgraceful, could one of y'all remove the mod protection from my userpage in the meantime. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 11:41, 17 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&diff=2227373</id> <title>User talk:Ze</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&diff=2227373"/> <updated>2020-09-17T11:38:18Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Tech removed */ <hr /> <div>==Topic== {{Welcome}} &lt;span&gt;— '''[[User:Palaeonictis|&lt;font color=&quot;teal&quot;&gt;Palaeonictis&lt;/font&gt;]]''' [[User talk:Palaeonictis|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Fossil beds&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 00:59, 26 February 2019 (UTC) ==Autopatrolled== {{rit}} as per {{ping|Dysklyver}}. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 03:52, 19 March 2019 (UTC) ==note== Because of your [[Special:Contributions/{{PAGENAME}}|edits to]] and &lt;span class=plainlinks&gt;[http://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&amp;type=newusers&amp;user={{urlencode:{{PAGENAME}}}} time on]&lt;/span&gt; the wiki, '''{{#if:1|&lt;s&gt;wizard&lt;/s&gt;&amp;nbsp;|}}[[{{#if:1|RationalWiki:Sysop{{!}}Sysop|RationalWiki:Autopatrolled{{!}}Autopatrolled}}]] has been added to your [[Special:UserRights/{{PAGENAME}}|user rights]]'''. {{#if:1|Feel free to let your newfound '''''&lt;big&gt;ᴘᴏᴡᴇʀ&lt;/big&gt;''''' course through your veins. Once the high wears off, see [[RationalWiki:Sysop guide]] for more information.|This lets you bypass most of the [[Special:AbuseFilter|abuse filters]], bypass the CAPTCHA, and edit more frequently.}} If you have questions, &lt;s&gt;[[Goat|bleat]]&lt;/s&gt; ask away.{{#if:1||&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;We hope you enjoy your newfound '''''&lt;big&gt;ᴘᴏᴡᴇʀ&lt;/big&gt;''''' &amp;mdash; and these external tools: *'''[http://rbutr.com/ Rbutr]''' shows user-submitted rebuttals to your current webpage. *'''Google Scholar Button &lt;sup&gt;([https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/google-scholar-button/ldipcbpaocekfooobnbcddclnhejkcpn?hl=en Chrome], [https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/google-scholar-button/ Firefox])&lt;/sup&gt;''' searches your highlighted text in Google Scholar. Easily check academic citations! *'''[http://archive.org/web/ web.archive.org]''' and '''[https://archive.is/ archive.is]''' can save permanent copies of webpages. Never lose a crank website or racist Tweet ever again!}} {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:35, 19 March 2019 (UTC) == A courtesy == You blocked [[User:SimonandSimon]] for 9 hours. I had a look at their contribs and couldn't see why a block of an autopatrolled editor was warranted. I have, therefore, undone your block. --[[User:Matty the Damned|&lt;font color=&quot;teal&quot;&gt;'''MtD'''&lt;/font&gt;]][[User_talk:Matty the Damned|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''Bogan''&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] 17:18, 17 April 2019 (UTC) : [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/D D] started to block any accounts that mention the troll beginning with &quot;M&quot; (who socks here daily and is regularly blocked). There's even a word filter on his name so users that aren't sysops cannot mention him, although he can easily be found and has a RationalWiki article (I wrote a comment on its talk.) Apparently anyone who now mentions &quot;M&quot; is getting blocked based only on something D has said; no other sysops voted on this issue or approved it.[[User:SimonandSimon|SimonandSimon]] ([[User talk:SimonandSimon|talk]]) 17:40, 17 April 2019 (UTC) ::Don't take my unblock as an endorsement of what you've done, are doing or are intending to do. It was [[User:EK]] who blocked you, not [[User:D]]. I simply cannot see, on the basis of your edits thus far, what warranted a block. I have a suspicion this will change in the near future. --[[User:Matty the Damned|&lt;font color=&quot;teal&quot;&gt;'''MtD'''&lt;/font&gt;]][[User_talk:Matty the Damned|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''Bogan''&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] 17:47, 17 April 2019 (UTC) == Revert == Hey, you reverted a couple edits of mine on [[Men's rights movement]]. I'm not sure why; could you please explain? {{unsig|Hppavilion1}} because it didnt improve the article you added: &quot;though on the other hand, most people would consider being seen as helpless superior to be to being dead&quot;; because [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Men%27s_rights_movement&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2075525Give me condescension or give me death!] you removed: &quot;The fact that women attempt suicide more often would indicate that female suicide is a more important problem.&quot;; because [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Men%27s_rights_movement&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2075524 Removed a sentence which contributed little which opened a huge can of worms about moral philosophy (if more women than men attempt suicide, but more men succeed, which issue is more important?)] no? [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 09:27, 22 May 2019 (UTC) :(I wrote the following before your edit came through) : '''UPDATE''': I'm reading through change-by-change to see what I did; most of the edits were single word changes (for example, &quot;must&quot; to &quot;should&quot;, when should is more appropriate in the context). The first change affecting meaning was in a paragraph about birth control; it stated men have access to condoms and vasectomies, but &quot;condoms do fail&quot;- vasectomies aren't perfect either, since they don't always take, which is an '''extremely''' important thing to note. :The next was adding a clause reading &quot;These are obviously both wrong&quot; to a section discussing two isolated instances where men really ''did'' get screwed over by the courts (a man being ordered to pay child support after his sperm was stolen; a molested 12-year-old being ordered to pay child support) (these examples existing in the article before my edit). :The next was an edit in the section on suicide; the MRA argument is &quot;more men commit suicide than women&quot;, the rebuttal was &quot;more women attempt suicide, men just tend to be more successful. I removed a sentence reading &quot;The fact that women attempt suicide more often would indicate that female suicide is a more important problem,&quot; because which is the more important problem in that case is up for serious debate. :The final change was in the section on the Birkenhall Drill (&quot;women and children first&quot;); one was an innocuous change noting that MRAs' issue is with the 'women' part, not the 'children' part; the final substantial change, and I suspect the sentence that you reverted my edit over, was an addition to the sentence beginning with &quot;When the &quot;women and children first&quot; trope has been applied, you have to really wonder if it's ultimately condescending to women.&quot; I added the clause at the end &quot;though on the other hand, most people would consider being seen as helpless superior to be to being dead.&quot; (which, on a second read-through, was '''really''' poorly-phrased). My thoughts on the matter are, basically, that if it were actually used frequently, the Birkenhall drill '''would be''' one of the few examples where men are screwed over more than women. The issue I took with that sentence was that saying that the drill may be &quot;ultimately condescending to women&quot; is because essentially, men are the ones who would be getting the short end of the stick ''in that case''—if the Birkenhall Drill is in effect, women get condescended to, men get dead. The argument seemed reminiscent of &quot;affirmative action is patronizing to minorities,&quot; basically. [[User:Hppavilion1|Hppavilion1]] ([[User talk:Hppavilion1|talk]]) 09:38, 22 May 2019 (UTC) : TL;DR: Yeah, that first one was really poorly done, my apologies; the latter was removed because... one could argue that &quot;more women attempt suicide than men&quot; means &quot;female suicide is a more important problem&quot;, but one could equally-well argue that &quot;more men actually die from suicide than women&quot; means &quot;male suicide is a more important problem&quot;, and the statement took a side when I'm not sure there's a correct interpretation. No malice was intended in my edits, but that first sentence '''was''' very poorly written, yes. [[User:Hppavilion1|Hppavilion1]] ([[User talk:Hppavilion1|talk]]) 09:44, 22 May 2019 (UTC) ::ye it was overall not an improvement but u could put the vasectomies part back [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 09:56, 22 May 2019 (UTC) :::Done. I totally get the reason you'd revert — I think I tried to combine humor and wound up with a Frankenstein's monster of a sentence, and article's probably a huge MRA target in the first place. (I was ''historically'' more MRA-leaning, but I actually find myself today reading through the articles on people I used to like- such as [[TheAmazingAtheist]] and [[Sargon of Akkad]], just to see them from a new perspective.) :::I still think the suicide sentence's statement is disputable; I would argue that more people actually dying makes male suicide one of those rare issues in which men have it worse (though most suicide prevention policies should be pretty much gender neutral.) :::The Birkenhall drill section, too, has some issues imo- but I'm not sure how to fix it. [[User:Hppavilion1|Hppavilion1]] ([[User talk:Hppavilion1|talk]]) 10:23, 22 May 2019 (UTC) == DMorris == Yeah I changed my mind, check your email. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 08:57, 16 July 2019 (UTC) == Hitler vs Mao vs democracy == Left a comment at [[Essay_talk:How_death_camps_can_end_Androcentrism#Hitler_vs_Mao|Hitler vs Mao]]. Would you consider yourself more of a Hitlerite, a Maoist, or perhaps simply a defender of modern democracy? [[User:Scottperry|Scottperry]] ([[User talk:Scottperry|talk]]) 20:27, 7 September 2019 (UTC) :the essay is more mixed and doesnt follow any actual ideology tho i tried to make it more hitlerite. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 12:35, 8 September 2019 (UTC) ::Anarchism vs: democracy vs: totalitarianism... There is one missing ingredient in all of these. What some have called &quot;the milk of human kindness.&quot; No system of government, or lack thereof, can legislate this into existence, or out of existence. It exists in some other dimension, where governments and the wayward, cannot tread, but yet can aspire to. Gandhi, Lincoln, King, and many others have aspired to this. [[User:Scottperry|Scottperry]] ([[User talk:Scottperry|talk]]) 16:56, 8 September 2019 (UTC) :::&lt;3 [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 18:28, 8 September 2019 (UTC) == Thanks == Looks like I moved the Sellner draft page to Talk -- yikes. Thanks for catching that. [[User:CogitoNotStirred|CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy)]] ([[User talk:CogitoNotStirred|talk]]) 15:07, 16 September 2019 (UTC) :thx [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 19:34, 16 September 2019 (UTC) == my membership == I have a question. Does my contribution to 'Recent changes' not appear at all when my qualifications are changed to bot or ninja?--[[User:BluePink|BluePink]] ([[User talk:BluePink|talk]]) 00:59, 27 September 2019 (UTC) :when u have the bot role ur edits do not appear in recent changes. the ninja role allows to add or remove the bot role [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 01:01, 27 September 2019 (UTC) ::Okay. Thank you for the good information.--[[User:BluePink|BluePink]] ([[User talk:BluePink|talk]]) 01:04, 27 September 2019 (UTC) == Votes == You're a vote counter, but I don't have your email and neither does the wiki! Email me dgerard@gmail.com or via the wiki :-) - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 22:02, 26 November 2019 (UTC) :the wiki won't send a confirmation so it doesn't have it, I posted it on ur talk page tho [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 15:10, 28 November 2019 (UTC) == The mod page == May I ask why you removed [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2138200&amp;oldid=2138194| my post] as part of [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2138207&amp;oldid=2138206| yours]?[[User:Oshawottalot|Osha]][[User_Talk:Oshawottalot|&lt;sup&gt;wottalot&lt;/sup&gt;]] 20:28, 2 December 2019 (UTC) :Im on mobile and its hard to deal with having 4 edit conflicts when trying to post on the mod page and the writing is ant size [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 20:33, 2 December 2019 (UTC) == Saloon bar protection == Morris, again? [[User:Tinribmancer|Tinribmancer]] ([[User talk:Tinribmancer|talk]]) 18:22, 7 December 2019 (UTC) :Yep. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 18:24, 7 December 2019 (UTC) ::ye just an angry peep [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 19:03, 7 December 2019 (UTC) == Don't know what to do with this == https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User:Jauffere Is this Morris? It sounds like him. But it could also be someone who doesn't want to get banned, like Tdog1. [[User:Tinribmancer|Tinribmancer]] ([[User talk:Tinribmancer|talk]]) 13:14, 10 December 2019 (UTC) :too few edits to tell, i dont know yet. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 14:30, 10 December 2019 (UTC) ::If they aren't trolling or aren't acting like DMorris, then who cares?{{User:CheeseburgerFace/sig}} 14:41, 10 December 2019 (UTC) :::they are acting like dmorris its just not a good idea to act too soon with insufficient evidence. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 14:42, 10 December 2019 (UTC) == Unheard Netherlands == VVD are Centre-right liberals. I've never heard of Mark Rutte (their leader) endorsing anti-semite statements and I have no idea where you get the right-wing populism from. Also, we have a page on [[Party for Freedom|PVV]]. [[User:Tinribmancer|Tinribmancer]] ([[User talk:Tinribmancer|talk]]) 16:13, 10 December 2019 (UTC) :Islightly improved the wording to separate the VVD from the PVV and FvD. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 16:18, 10 December 2019 (UTC) ::I decided to do a bit of googling on this VVD thing (since this would've hit the news over here aswell if the dutch liberals supported that (knowing that the leader of the liberals, is also the prime minister of The Netherlands) and the only thing I'm finding, is that Ybeltje Berckmoes (who's on that list), is a former member of VVD. [[User:Tinribmancer|Tinribmancer]] ([[User talk:Tinribmancer|talk]]) 16:41, 10 December 2019 (UTC) :::Well if you want to rewrite that part u can, I'm not an expert. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 21:30, 10 December 2019 (UTC) ::::Done. Also, AD.nl is clickbait, same for De Volkskrant.nl (incase you would bump against an article from that site for future references). [[User:Tinribmancer|Tinribmancer]] ([[User talk:Tinribmancer|talk]]) 19:15, 13 December 2019 (UTC) == Portal icon == Ek, you made the &quot;Nordic power and white nationalism&quot; portal recently. Can you tell me how to make a portal icon?&lt;span&gt;— [[User:Jeh2ow|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;'''Jeh2ow'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk: Jeh2ow|&lt;font color=&quot;Blue&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Damn son!&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 17:12, 11 December 2019 (UTC) :I just drew it on a computer and resized it to fit. Use whichever program you find easiest since they are all similar. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 19:33, 11 December 2019 (UTC) ::Which program do you prefer?&lt;span&gt;— [[User:Jeh2ow|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;'''Jeh2ow'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk: Jeh2ow|&lt;font color=&quot;Blue&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Damn son!&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 00:00, 12 December 2019 (UTC) :::I saw the [[:File:Icon-nordricnav.png|portal icon]] and I believe it can use a retouch, especially with anti-aliasing. You should create portal icons in programs that can manipulate vector images (such as Adobe Illustrator or Inkscape). I vastly prefer .svg files because [https://explaineverything.com/5-advantages-using-svgs/ they can be scaled to any size and so they retain their resolution] unlike raster graphics (which .png is). Most files in our [[:Category:Portal icons|portal icon category]] are .svgs. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 00:56, 12 December 2019 (UTC) ::::Most of us don't know how to use .svg programs. That's why I made my portal icons in paint.net {{User:DuceMoosolini/Xmasig}} 01:04, 12 December 2019 (UTC) :::::I used microsoft paint, the school computer don't have anything for.svg anyway. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 14:51, 12 December 2019 (UTC) == Chicken Coop archive == If you want to end a case, it's better to end with a resolution and having everyone agree to an archive. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:46, 16 April 2020 (UTC) :it looked like nothing was going to be achieved ngl. And people were saying to archive it on the page itself. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 18:49, 16 April 2020 (UTC) ::Not only that, but nobs appeared and began to troll and stir up shit, potentially elevating a coop that appeared to have lost all steam. I agree with this prompt archive action. [[User:Cosmikdebris|Cosmikdebris]] ([[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]) 18:55, 16 April 2020 (UTC) :::I see. Though I need to see decisive action being taken here, something mods need to rely on whenever drama occurs in the Saloon Bar again. Right now, there doesn't seem to be a clear agreement, which is no good if I need to moderate the Saloon Bar for the same behavior. I'm hoping the coop itself tells people to calm down and treat others with respect, but I need some agreement just in case they don't. And for nobs, well, who cares about nobs? {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 19:08, 16 April 2020 (UTC) ::::you don't need coop approval to block a user for up to 3.6 months if necessary. You can also remove or hatnote topics yourself. I would suggest just taking whatever actions are necessary of your own initiative and letting people know this is unacceptable flaming. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 19:14, 16 April 2020 (UTC) :::::My impression throughout my time here was that blocks for any recurring users have to be agreed on or else I might be accused of a powertrip or overstepping mod authority. I have modhatted threads before, and it was over the same topic, the 2020 primaries. I was accused by ikanreed of shuttering discussion. If there's a coop case agreeing on how to proceed, at least I can refer to a clear decision by the mob if I eventually have to exercise my own judgement. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 19:34, 16 April 2020 (UTC) ::::::Ironically ikanreed doesn't even think that Trump is particularly missional.[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki%3AChicken_coop&amp;type=revision&amp;diff=2174417&amp;oldid=2174416] Yes, we need agreement on a rules change, otherwise it's back to the coop every time there's an argument that gets out of hand. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 19:57, 16 April 2020 (UTC) :::::::Y'all gonna ignore Shab's deliberate instigating? &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 23:54, 16 April 2020 (UTC) {{od}} The rules already allow mods to unilaterally shut down problems, the issue is that nobody wants to do it because of peeps complaining afterwards. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 20:36, 16 April 2020 (UTC) == I didn't remove the source == If you actually bothered to ''read'' the content I modified you would realize it was a case of [[poisoning the well]] by trying to portray ''all anarchists'' as anti-semitic. As for the &quot;[[Red-baiting|communist propaganda]]&quot;, I did not include that I only '''copy pasted''' what the user Godless Raven included. [[User:Tuxer|Tuxer]] ([[User talk:Tuxer|talk]]) 16:13, 4 June 2020 (UTC) ::what you wrote is a common trope from communist propaganda, I'm aware that you didn't bother to cite your source. As for poisoning the well, it's a documented fact that proudhon was antisemitic, far more than others at the time so it's hardly undue. Plus I clarified in the article this stance was abandoned by modern anarchists and you removed what I wrote for no reason anyway. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 17:19, 4 June 2020 (UTC) == Discord == Where are you? &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 00:23, 11 June 2020 (UTC) :look for the new account with the Zee. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 09:54, 11 June 2020 (UTC) == Permaban me == This wiki is too much of a stressor for me and I`m fed up with it. Please desysop and permaban me. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 00:05, 12 June 2020 (UTC) :Why do you take it so personally? You know you can edit, debate and enjoy RW without having to be worried about your user rights. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 05:39, 12 June 2020 (UTC) ::You can't when you're a wanna-be dictator who cries wolf whenever confronted with responsibility, and that will be the tale of every anarchist because anarchism is inherently tied to a hypocrisy that they will never admit to. Anyhow, now that Oxy is gone, we can and should stop talking about her (which she enjoys and [[User_talk:Ace_McWicked#Coop.2FSysoprevoke|searches for around the wiki]]). — [[User:Godless Raven|&lt;b&gt;Godless Raven&lt;/b&gt; 🌹]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Godless Raven|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;Heretic&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt; 06:02, 12 June 2020 (UTC) :::I think now, Raven, you should back off and just carry on as usual or risk appearing like you are reveling in it, [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 06:09, 12 June 2020 (UTC) ::::I thought it was obvious that I am reveling in it tbh. But okay, let's stop. — [[User:Godless Raven|&lt;b&gt;Godless Raven&lt;/b&gt; 🌹]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Godless Raven|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;Heretic&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt; 06:27, 12 June 2020 (UTC) :::::Yeah, people won't like that. Don't be a dick unless necessary. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 06:46, 12 June 2020 (UTC) :::::[[Poisoning the well|Grow the fuck up.]] I'm starting to believe you do have an obsession with her. [[User:Beyond Reality|Beyond Reality]] ([[User talk:Beyond Reality|talk]]) 12:53, 12 June 2020 (UTC) :::::::No, actually, I am done with her. My goal is accomplished. No idea what you are talking about. — [[User:Godless Raven|&lt;b&gt;Godless Raven&lt;/b&gt; 🌹]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Godless Raven|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;Heretic&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt; 14:08, 12 June 2020 (UTC) == &lt;3 == {{User:Godless_Raven/sig}} 17:19, 16 June 2020 (UTC) :Just to be clear, Spud and LeftyGreenMario are moderators. Blocking and promoting Godless Raven were moderator actions.--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 17:25, 16 June 2020 (UTC) ::Will LGM be blocked for editwarring? {{User:Godless_Raven/sig}} 17:26, 16 June 2020 (UTC) :::Probably not, because AFAIK she has doesn't have a history of edit warring and is in good standing with the community, as can be evidenced by her election as moderator--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 17:50, 16 June 2020 (UTC) ::::In short, if you have the anarchist mob behind you, you can editwar. Gotcha. {{User:Godless_Raven/sig}} 17:50, 16 June 2020 (UTC) :::::RationalWiki is and always has been a collaborative project. Or a mobocracy, if you prefer. Although few of its users are anarchists--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 17:52, 16 June 2020 (UTC) ::::::Berlusconi could've used that tactic, too. &quot;It is okay for me to loot the public treasure as long as I am popular.&quot; This is the logic you are applying here. Now, if you actually believe that and defend that, that's fine. I just disagree, I expect mods to comply with the same rules as someone who is constantly harassed for minor things (like me). {{User:Godless_Raven/sig}} 17:54, 16 June 2020 (UTC) ::::::::I have to admit, argumentum ad Silvio Berlusconi is marginally better than making Hitler comparisons--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 18:01, 16 June 2020 (UTC) {{od}} Thank you {{ping|Hastur}}. Do you mind answering my Discord DMs before I get silenced again? {{User:Godless_Raven/sig}} 18:14, 16 June 2020 (UTC) :I am new to Discord and I don't see your DMs anymore but if I recall correctly they said something about me watching you get pushed off the wiki and doing nothing. I am not doing nothing, the person with the biggest hate-on for you (Oxyeana) is being dealt with, I've actually defended you and your edits as have other editors you just consistently choose an unhealthy attitude when your edits are challenged. If you look at the discussion on the Anarchy article, for example, you'll see that a number of editors support trimming the fancruft. If you create a draft of the article, either in draft space or user space, and propose it to the community there's a good chance that we'll vote for the new draft if we feel it's better than the old one. Running around saying &quot;coop me!&quot; and evading blocks is not endearing you to anyone. Yes, it's frustrating when your mainspace edits get reverted. I've been there, believe me. Back when I had more energy I made a good few mainspace edits. Once an article I had written was deemed not missional and it was threatened with deletion. This made me angry. I expressed my anger and it got me nowhere. Ultimately what did happen was that the community took the effort to reshape the article into something more appropriate for RationalWiki. This is a process, do you understand? A collaborative effort. You can choose to make it painful for everybody involved or you can work with the community towards a shared goal, namely our mission.--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 18:30, 16 June 2020 (UTC) ::{{goodpost}} {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:35, 16 June 2020 (UTC) :::yes now with luck this is resolved finally. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 20:20, 16 June 2020 (UTC) == Draft == {{collapse|leave me alone i don't care anymore}} The vote in question was over a specific section that was disputed criticized by several users. It did not pertain to the article as a whole, and in fact [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Anarchism&amp;diff=2191700&amp;oldid=2191699 I openly stated that I did not oppose trimming the article]. I brought up the vote to try to help resolve the situation. The proposed draft was brought up specifically to oppose that vote. Therefor, in my view, it is irrelevant to the results of that vote, except perhaps has a later dispute. Ergo, I feel the results of the vote should not be hindered by tangential dispute. Ergo, I feel the results of the vote should be implemented due to no further input from the involved parties. {{User:GrammarCommie/sig}} 15:47, 18 June 2020 (UTC) :Stop harassing her. You already went to coop. Just stop. {{User:Godless_Raven/sig}} 15:49, 18 June 2020 (UTC) ::We're discussing this like adults, if the small birdy doesn't mind letting EK speak for herself. {{User:GrammarCommie/sig}} 15:51, 18 June 2020 (UTC) :::Once again Raven confuses a simple talk page message with “harassment”. The fragility is astounding. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 15:58, 18 June 2020 (UTC) ::::Does the collapse template and labeling mean you will not dispute the changes if I implement them, as per the article's talkpage? {{User:GrammarCommie/sig}} 16:04, 18 June 2020 (UTC) {{collapse end}} {{collapse|please stop}} :Again I ask: If I implement that changes agreed on by the talkpage vote, will you continue to contest it? I really dislike this edit warring nonsense over content that wasn't that good to begin with. {{User:GrammarCommie/sig}} 16:14, 18 June 2020 (UTC) ::if you edit the page before the protection ends I will undo it and probably block you again and ask you to wait for the 2 week point on the vote. Unless, you find an uninvolved sysop to formally close the vote and remove the protection before that date, in which case you can do so assuming that person doesn't do it as part of closing the vote. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 16:18, 18 June 2020 (UTC) :::Fine, I'll ask the Mods to review the matter. Because again, no one agreed to a deadline. This was implemented arbitrarily by you and you alone. {{User:GrammarCommie/sig}} 16:20, 18 June 2020 (UTC) ::::GC, she told you to stop. You are harassing her. {{User:Godless_Raven/sig}} 16:23, 18 June 2020 (UTC) :::::Fuck off. according to you anything you don't like is vandalism, drama, or harassment. Meanwhile, us adults don't throw those words around lightly. {{User:GrammarCommie/sig}} 16:24, 18 June 2020 (UTC) ::::::I'm not even an adult lol. But yes I'm asking for you to go get someone else to arbitrate because you clearly think only mods have the authority to keep you in line. Now shoo. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 16:41, 18 June 2020 (UTC) {{collapseend}} == Yesterday == I apologize if yesterday I responded at a bad time and/or made you feel uncomfortable. That was wrong of me. My intent then as it is now is to resolve the dispute(s), not to inflame them. {{User:GrammarCommie/sig}} 01:12, 20 June 2020 (UTC) :Reverting my talk page comments on a mods talk page and saying the reason was, and I quote, &quot;''neither of them should speak''&quot; (reference to me and Raven) was very cringe and unhelpful to resolving the dispute. After you decided to stop Raven editing the draft that many users had encouraged him to work on, by you edit warring there and having it mod locked, I think it became pretty clear that the only resolution you will accept is total compliance with your wishes. But then there are your previous actions of editing thru protection to carry on an edit war, desysoping me out of process, bringing me to the coop to try and have me desysoped for a simple enforcement action on obvious site rules, and then claiming in the coop that you are not bound by the rules unless a mod tells you otherwise. And this is just what you did to me for trying to defuse your attacks on Raven, you have been outright worse to him with repeated blocking, edit warring, verbal abuse, and so on. I can't honestly tell if this is just what you always do to get an article to be how you like, or whether it's some personal animosity. However, your apology doesn't cover what I'm upset about if you follow, it's more than just a response, it's a week long campaign of intimidation to try and get me to give up, because after all the dispute is resolved by getting rid of one side, and you have at no point allowed any compromise so far. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 09:01, 20 June 2020 (UTC) == Chicken coop == {{CoopNotice}} {{User:The Crow/sig}} 18:51, 26 June 2020 (UTC) == AFD == [[RationalWiki:Articles for deletion/Anarcho-fascism|An article you wrote is being voted on]]--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 02:00, 27 June 2020 (UTC) ==Nomination== {{BoardNotice}} You were nominated by [[:User:Burrito]]. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:32, 14 July 2020 (UTC) == Tech removed == You have been removed from tech. If you think you don't deserve that pls bring it up on the mod page. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 01:30, 17 September 2020 (UTC) :idk third time it's been removed for no reason (I never looked at anyones IP addresses) it feels like I'm wasting my time here. I think I'll just quit instead and let you have fun with the cranks, the anarchists, the pedophiles, and the doxers and all the other very nice people you have here. {{User:Ze/?}} 09:40, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ::So you've had your tech powers removed 3 times? What's the common denominator here? [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:36, 17 September 2020 (UTC) :::Overzealous mods and &quot;preemptive&quot; strikes on all occasions, she never did anything wrong. Moot point now because you can't recover a spiked password... focus on something more important maybe? {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 11:38, 17 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2227370</id> <title>RationalWiki:Chicken coop</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2227370"/> <updated>2020-09-17T11:29:35Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Indefinite ban for D */ <hr /> <div>__NEWSECTIONLINK__{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}[[Category:RationalWiki]][[Category:RationalWiki moderation]][[Category:Turdblossoms]] [[Category:Shit articles]] {{hatnote|Not to be confused with the [[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation|moderator noticeboard]].}} {{talkpage |search=yes}} {{shortcut|RW:CC|RW:COOP}} &lt;!-- {{/status|}} --&gt; {{/status|3}} The '''chicken coop''' is for the avoidance, containment and resolution of cases of [[Headless Chicken Mode]] (HCM). Despite the name, this tends to be serious business. This page can be used for reporting cases of administrative abuse (abuse of [[RationalWiki:Sysop guide|sysop]] or [[RationalWiki:Moderators|moderator]] abilities such as blocking, page deletion, or user rights management), general abuse (such as [[troll]]ing, [[wandalism]], and personal attacks), and '''conflicts which cannot be solved through normal talk page discussion''' (such as long-standing edit wars or article content disputes). Please be specific and include links to any relevant discussions, page edits or logs. All editors are welcome to comment on the cases raised here, and to try to reach a consensus on any action to be taken. If no consensus can be reached, and the HCM seems to be escalating, moderators are expected to take some action. However, any serious or permanent solution, such as removal of rights or lengthy ban, requires a community vote here according to the guidelines laid out in our [[RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Voting|Community Standards]]. '''Please''' try to resolve conflicts directly through discussion on other editor's talk pages '''before''' reporting them. It's better to just talk to someone rather than try to drag their name through the mud. If the issue is not conflict resolution, but concerns RationalWiki policies, suggested changes to how things work around here, or similar matters of principle, please post '''[[RationalWiki talk:Community Standards|on the Community Standards talk page]] instead. When presenting a case here, be sure to include ''whom'' you are accusing, what exactly you are accusing them ''of'', some hard ''evidence'', and a brief ''explanation''. Since the sole purpose of the Coop is to resolve these disputes, don't post unrelated or more generalized complaints here — if you do, your posts will be moved off the page. Any vote started within 48 hours of filing will be deleted and you will be blocked. Use {{tl|CoopNotice}} to inform the user in question, so that they have a chance to discuss their actions here. As a final note, if you think this page is a good tactic to apply in gaming the mob into doing your bidding, you may be shocked to see your post archived ''quite'' swiftly. == Ban Smith == I propose to formally ban the user known as &quot;Smith&quot; for the offenses of: # Doxing me and at least 3 other members of this site on various talk pages here and creating at least 2 libellous attack pages on editors here. # Doxing members of this site on [[Kiwi Farms]] and Reddit and elsewhere. # Attempting to bulk delete pages here in [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?oldid=2040594 connection with] a lawsuit and causing disruption in the process along with arguably shifting the legal responsibility for those pages onto the site users who voted to keep them. # Deliberately introducing defamatory material to multiple pages as part of a [http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2019/3393.html dispute] with some crank. # Using this site to carry out a flame war with [[Mikemikev]] and [[Abd]] for several years including impersonating both on several occasions. # Vandalism and trolling with &quot;throwaway&quot; accounts to disrupt site processes on numerous occasions. I'm not going to specify any evidence because the most relevant evidence is suppressed and everyone with suppression access is well aware of the situation already. Just remember voting starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Discussion === :so we are being asked to vote to ban a user few of us actually know who they are with no evidence provided? another coop another farce. [[User:AMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] ([[User talk:AMassiveGay|talk]]) 12:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yes exactly that. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::It's honestly difficult to get the details clear, since a lot was suppressed. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus That said, this discussion remains] as well as the AfD Ze has linked. It appears to be tied to the [[Mikemikev]]/[[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]] drama, the former of whom got banned from RW for... what should frankly be obvious reasons (just read his page lol). I'll be frank, I won't vote in the Smith stuff since I don't know this particular drama shitstorm surrounding those two, but as far as I'm concerned, there is not exactly a great loss to the wiki should they remain gone? -Also just to quickly clarify, this coop isn't about nobs lol-. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Not banning him would kinda send the message that doxing is ok here so my vote is settled already. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Smith's only real activity here was and is meant to further internet grudges and escalate drama. It's caused problems on more than one occasion. Not an editor we need to keep around. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 13:21, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Funny comment considering I've added the most articles of any editor to RationalWiki. Most the people criticising me instead don't add constructive content but use this wiki as a chat-room such as Saloon bar (a place I've virtually never visited).[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: I've never doxed, impersonated or defamed anyone, notice as well no evidence is ever presented for these wild allegations. Ze has engaged in a gaslighting campaign against me for some time and nothing they post about me is accurate. They link to the preliminary judgement ''Kirkegaard v Smith [2019] EWHC 3393 (QB)'' but that has nothing to do with RationalWiki. I was never sued for comments I made on this wiki so claims I have posted libel on this wiki are blatantly false. And I won the lawsuit - Kirkegaard discontinued in May and has to pay my legal fees as the losing party. The preliminary judgement concerned fact versus opinion and ruled my comments were &quot;expressions of opinion and are defamatory&quot; ''however'' the judge pointed out &quot;For the avoidance of doubt, I am not deciding the question of serious harm under s 1 of the Defamation Act 2013.&quot; (the preliminary was to determine whether my comments were fact or opinion not the question of serious harm and I won it on the basis I was arguing my comments were opinions while Kirkegaard incorrectly said they were facts and he was criticised by the judge for taking my comments out of context). Had it gone to full trial or summary judgement (I filed for) a judge would have decided if my comments were either honest opinion (my legal defence) or defamation based on the serious harm question. Kirkegaard discontinued the lawsuit shortly before the judge was going to decide this knowing he/she would almost certainly have ruled my opinions were honestly held rather than defamation. So did I defame him? No. It' s highly misleading to say I did since my comments were upheld as honest opinion which provides a legal defence to defamation (other than truth) and he discontinued the lawsuit knowing the judge in the summary judgement would have ruled my comments did not cause him serious harm. Of course, I don't expect Ze (formerly EK) or Dysk (aka D) to acknowledge this and both of them have spent the past year character assassinating me on Reddit and various wiki-related forums over this lawsuit. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} :You doxed me [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=2073359&amp;oldid=2073357&amp;unhide=1 here] and then a bunch of other times that I could find if you really want and then doxed other editors later and when your comments were suppressed you went to do the same thing on other sites including [[Kiwi Farms]] whose users still follow me around to harrass even now because of it. {{User:Ze/?}} 14:02, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Upon further consideration, I changed my mind. I hadn't quite seen the KiwiFarms shit. Let me be clear here, anyone who is on that site and thinks that posting anything to do with a member here is an A-Okay thing can honestly and directly fuck off. Smith needs as far as I am concerned no more place here. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: I've never doxed Ze - they formerly used their name initials (EK) on RationalWiki which is public knowledge. They renamed their account. They were banned from Wikipedia for trolling using their real name. How is any of this doxing if they've publicly used their real name as their account name on Wikipedia and used their initials on RationalWiki? If you go down that road and define doxing as someone who posts public information then by the same definition Ze (aka EK) has doxed me by posting my name Oliver Smith all over the place.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: LOL. If you want to ban people who post on Kiwi Farms, then ban EK/Ze - she posts there and libelled me as a pedophile on an account. It would be pretty moronic to deny this is her since the account is an SPA dedicated to attacking me and contains the same &quot;feminazi&quot; name description. EK/Ze has been using Kiwi Farms to libel me for months.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} My account initials were never connected to any name until you decided to do that, obviously it was public knowledge after you made it public knowledge which is what you must have wanted. The Zionist Feminazi account on Kiwifarms is obviously not me, and in addition to calling you a pedophile it doxes LGM, posts personal information about Dysk, claims Bongolian is your brother, and calls various peeps here SJWs which tbf is fairly standard for all the posters on that thread. It also engages in severe transphobia against dysk which seems cringe and is ngl a lot like your own very transphobic comments about dysk you made [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&amp;target=Arthur+Kerensa&amp;timestamp=20190426123447 here] which is now suppressed. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :What personal info from me was revealed? DM may be appropriate. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account on Kiwifarms is Ze who calls herself a feminazi here. Ze and Dysk claim to be siblings in real life. The &quot;Zionist Feminist&quot; account on Kiwi Farms libeled me as a pedophile and it is ''only'' Ze/Dysk that repeats the libel on that account. Ze is also involved with Mikemikev drama and note the only other thread the Feminazi account on KF posted in is Mike's. There are plenty of other evidences that account is Ze.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: On Kiwi Farms there is talk that Ze and Dysk are the same person. On his Reddit account, Dysk posted several times he is in actual fact Ze. Does anyone know what all this is about, or is it an elaborate hoax? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::It's a well known fact nothing I post on Reddit is true, I have no idea why people still take me seriously there. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::&lt;s&gt;I disagree with a ban of Smith,&lt;/s&gt; I personally don't have an opinion either way. I'd say that a stern admonishment along with a 2 way interaction ban from contacting Ze (and vice-versa) &lt;s&gt;should be sufficient in my opinion&lt;/s&gt; would be a good idea in the event that Smith is not banned. Additionally, a preemptive sysoprevoke may be in order, especially with Ze active on the site. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Kiko you are a moron, if you want to comment, make an effort to understand the situation. You want an interaction ban for someone who doxed several editors? What a joke. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::: EK/Ze doxxed my brother and if they didn't do that I wouldn't have even looked into their identity and found their Wikipedia account. My actions were retaliatory - Proof is here. View this edit: https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 (this is me confronting Ze over the dox of my brother ''before'' I posted links to their Wikipedia account with their name). [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od|7}} Glad to see that you admit to doxing Ze now mate, your denials were fucking tiresome. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:59, 16 September 2020 (UTC) : I've rebutted that below. I never posted private information about your sister - she signed up a public Wikipedia account with her name. In contrast, your sister doxxed my brother's name on Wikipedocracy and other websites when he's never publicly revealed his name online. You have a penchant for projection. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::Dysk, there is no need for personal attacks. No I don't neccessarily want an interaction ban. I only said that this would be an option if Smith is not banned, whether as a result of this coop, or otherwise. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 17:46, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Kiko go and do something useful, like fucking yourself with a broom. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:28, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ===Cultivating this many sockpuppets=== I don't know, man. Sockpuppetry is not explicitly against our rules. In fact having sock accounts has largely been condoned in the past. But I can't help but feel that this Oliver D. Smith business has taken it to a whole other level. It may be worth it to ban them simply because they're more trouble than they're worth. We don't need to embroil RationalWiki in a conflict spanning half the internet, just for the sake of a single user. The scale of this is... disturbing.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 18:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't see the point in any of these debates. Smith and Ze have been involved in an online slap-fight for over a year its on Kiwi Farms, discord, Reddit etc. It's impossible to have both these people on the same website. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I'd be inclined to support banning Smith just based on the scale of the drama they're embroiled in. All sorts of websites and sockpuppets and angry basement-dwellers plus at least one court case. It's not worth it to allow any chance of all that garbage spilling onto RW. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:07, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::If you look up the Wikipedia clusterfuck, EK (Ze) was indef b&amp; as a sockpuppet of Dysk (indef b&amp; as either a suspected troll or irredeemable PITA). I'd provide links, but I can't be arsed with accusations of doxxing. This whole thing is weird AF. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 20:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Ze was originally blocked due to a technical link between us, this was overturned (for Ze) by a Wikimedia steward, based on showing identity documents. Terms of the unblock followed the WP:CLEANSTART guidelines and the original account remains locked. However, despite this I personally remain banned from all Wikipedia projects, for trolling, and ban evasion. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::We don't need the identity documents, obviously, but a link to the ruling would be nice-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::This was largely conducted in private on Wikimedia IRC, you will have to make do with the rather limited WP:AN ruling linked to my &quot;main&quot; Wikipedia account. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}{{ping|User:Dysklyver}} Pull the other one, son. Look, you've had a good run. Let's not spoil it by going down the very silly road of my-sister-totally-started-editing-Wikipedia-a-month-before-I-got-b&amp;-and-whilst-I-was-sockpuppeteering-like-crazy. Smell tests n' all that. I invite you to resign from the board of trustees, hand back both your tech bits, and decide whether you'll use your Dysk or Ze account for voting in future. Graceful exits on gentle off ramps ftw. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 01:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :1. RationalWiki has no rule against sockpuppetry it is a moot argument, nevertheless I will point out that nothing you wrote is true. :2. I've been sockpuppeting on Wikipedia since around 2006. Although my socks are assigned to various SPI cases, the oldest one blocked as &quot;Dysk&quot; is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Adek21 this] November 2006 account. Ze did not get blocked until 2018 (12 years later) and that was a quickly resolved mishap I caused quite accidentally. :3. I never stopped Sockpuppeting on Wikipedia and still edit articles there on a regular basis, occasionally I get banned this doesn't concern me. I haven't been banned for nearly 2 months. :4. I don't intend to quit the board without having pushed certain changes outlined in my candidacy statement, this isn't negotiable. :5. It's probable that I will lose Tech over the IP-Data visibility issue. Not because I did anything wrong, but because of what I said about it. :6. This is very much off-topic to this Coop case, if you have further questions take it to my DMs or Email. :Thanks. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 11:18, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::Thanks for the link. I hadn't dug any further than A____r K_____a, but my main concern now is your use of the Dysk and Ze accounts to sustain a &quot;doxxing&quot; drama that doesn't impact your RL identity at all. I get that you might be having tons of fun fucking with people on the internet, but bollocks to you indulging that shit here. You have an off ramp. Take it, please. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 18:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :: Dysklyver is banned from other wikis for sockpuppetry. [[Conservapedia]] on his blocked account says &quot;inconclusive but convincing checkuser evidence of sockpuppetry&quot;. And since he admits to socking on Wikipedia, was blocked for doing it on Conservapedia - it's almost certain he does it on RationalWiki. But as he says it's not against the rules here - however he's someone who has attacked me across the internet for owning &quot;hundreds of accounts&quot;. Likely projection since I don't that many (my estimate is 35-40, but that's over a 8 year period), perhaps he does though. And note he's publicly discussing his Wikipedia accounts he shares on an IP with his sister here, but made a dubious claim I doxxed his sister when I merely posted her Wikipedia account. (facepalm)[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:39, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::On that note Smith, the user account that you are using, [[User:Flight]] is a sockpuppet of a banned user. Is there any reason why this account should not be blocked? If there isn't then why even bother with a vote? Why not just proceed to blocking Smith? We can then review the block afterwards, if deemed appropriate. We have enough drama on this wiki without Smith, by allowing Smith to return we are only allowing more drama to take place here. Not good, and not rational either. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:07, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Feel free to link where Smith was banned mate. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:25, 17 September 2020 (UTC) {{ping|Flight}} I'm proud to be banned from Conservapedia for trolling, and I really love [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:DMorris&amp;diff=1504046&amp;oldid=1495433 what you wrote there as OliverS] (Oliver D. Smith) when I was blocked there by DMorris. {{quotebox|1=You should be very careful when dealing with users of RationalWiki. You were wrong in exposing yourself to them, but you were right in blocking that account. Dyskylver/Arthur Kerensa is a sock-puppet of Bongolian (a RationalWiki moderator), and also a notorious sock-puppeteer. He is also almost certainly the operator behind the &quot;John66&quot; account on RationalWiki. I can't prove any of these claims right now as so few edits have been done, but I will eventually be proved right. Dyskylver will pretend to be normal for a while like he did on his Wikipedia accounts, but sooner or later will reveal himself when he posts in support of anarchism. He is an active British Antifa and identifies as anarcho-communist. It is clear that all the accounts posting on the RationalWiki coop are accounts are operated by the same person to create the illusion of support. I also notice someone has created another sock with a name similar to the others to cause disruption here. Most likely the same individual behind this entire shit show. He is a dangerous ideologue, don't trust what he tells you. [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:DMorris&amp;diff=1504046&amp;oldid=1495433 OliverS talk 20:08, 23 March 2019 (EDT)] }} Of course there is no evidence that I'm not a sockpuppet of {{ping|Bongolian}} and there is no evidence {{ping|Johns}} (John66) isn't my account. I can personally vouch for the accuracy of Conservapedia, and of course you would never lie about me on a Trusworthy™ site, would you? {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:44, 17 September 2020 (UTC) == Ban Abd == I can't remember exactly what this guy did but allegedly trolling and doxing were involved. I think he created a blog to attack various editors after that and the validity of what he wrote there is disputed. Like Smith he was unilaterally banned by a sysop on the basis of doxing without a coop vote, so in the interests of fairness we will confirm this ban too at the same time. Remember that the vote starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority to pass. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I oppose having a vote to reinstate Abd because he has not petitioned for reinstatement of rights. It's a needless drama to rehash all of his bullshit (or anyone else's who hasn't petitioned). He appears to be a death's door according to D, and partly-confirmed by his own website. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 19:48, 16 September 2020 (UTC) === Disscussion === Seems like a wise idea, poking through history, it seems his community also was responsible for raiding RW or something? Anyway, that blog of his was in the abuse filter at some point if I'm not mistaken. Unlike Smith, I do think I can be confident in saying that blocking Abd is a good idea. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I mean in terms of damage Smith did more than Abd but yes both should be banned and this is more about procedure since both have been treated as banned for a long time and had hundreds of accounts blocked for ban evasion. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:26, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Abd Lomax is a threat to RationalWiki user's privacy and was rightly banned. He threatened to sue David Gerard and RationalWiki, he posted this on his website coldfusioncommunity in 2018 (if you want I can link to this). He later dropped this idea and filed a lawsuit against Wikipedia for banning him. His lawsuit against Wikipedia was dismissed with prejudice, but Abd claimed in this lawsuit that RationalWiki had 'defamed' him. On Abd's coldfusioncommunity website there are 50 negative articles dedicated to 'researching' RationalWiki editors such as Smith and their alleged sock-puppets. ::Lomax also doxed some RationalWiki staff on his website and some of that information is still live. Fuzzycatpotato has been doxed on Abd Lomax's website his real name and house address has been exposed. Ze is a close friend of Abd Lomax, indeed Lomax wrote on Reddit a few months ago he considers ZE like a &quot;daughter&quot;. Ze also has a discord &quot;The Treehouse&quot; and she invited Abd to join it, and made him a mod there. D/Ze have been in an online slapfight with Smith for a year spilling over multiple websites. We need someone totally uninvolved with this Abd or Smith drama to solve these matters. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 18:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I've only interacted with Abd once, but he did [http://coldfusioncommunity.net/anglo-pyramidologist/darryl-l-smith/skeptic-from-britain/comment-trolling/verifier/ post briefly about me on his site] (he did not doxx me) which brought it to my notice. He does seem to post a lot about RW stuff on his webpage. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Yeah well your like me anonymous so Abd can't get you but he tries to get hold of editors real life names, then he publishes it on his website. Does fuzzy know Abd has published his personal details? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I would vote Aye to a ban of Abd, but I've not been on here long enough. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : Abd was banned on [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Some_random_Smith Some random Smith] a suckpuppet using my surname and then editing Emil Kirkegaard's article when he knew I was involved at the time in a lawsuit with Kirkegaard. So I suspect this was an impersonation. Abd is a malicious troll and [[User_talk:Some_random_Smith#Hey_FYI|David Gerard blocked the Smith account]] recognising it was Abd. Abd falsely claims (without any evidence) I impersonate people on his blog - it's psychological projection and he's describing his own sick behaviour.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I could say the same about you. Funny how you have no self awareness, when you post obviously hypocritical statements. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: The difference is I've never impersonated anyone while Abd Lomax demonstrably has or at least he has used my surname on his sockpuppets. Who am I meant to have impersonated? And why has no mod blocked me for an impersonation? They only seem to exist in your imagination. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: D has admitted to being a [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226696&amp;oldid=2226693 friend] of Lomax. Ze is also a close friend of Abd. We need neutral users on here if any discussion is to go forward. Abd has personally harassed me over email so I am against him fully. I admit I hate this evil ol man! So I am not neutral. I suggest we all stop debating this topic and wait for the voting. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Abd is a great guy, that said, I don't oppose his ban on the grounds of doxing. Same with Smith, but Smith is actually a cunt. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 11:21, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I understand that you have a personal relationship with Abd, and I have no problem with that. Abd however is a lunatic ([[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax#Pseudoscience|pseudoscience promotion]]), a pest (repeated ban evasions), and a danger (doxing). He is not 'great'. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:04, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::That's all water under the bridge now, Abd needs banning in my opinion. Smith, however needs summary banning without a vote in my opinion. He is the sockpuppet of an indefinitely blocked user by his own admission. Why are we even wasting our valuable time feeding this troll? {{DFFT}} [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:15, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ==Invalid vote: started prematurely== '''As noted at the top of the page, since this vote did not start 48 hours after the beginning of the coop, it is therefore invalid.''' [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:11, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :This shit is so tiresome already, and we have to sit through another fucking day of this? {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 01:06, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ===Derp=== * I would settle for blocking my account on a voluntary basis i.e. post this user has decided to quit. Would I show up again? No. Because this time there was actually a Coop discussion rather than the irregular procedure of banning me via discord with no consensus or discussion. I returned to this wiki to add articles because there was no proper ban, rather, it was two problematic admins (Ze and Dysk) who banned me based on dubious allegations of doxing (I've rebutted these allegations above). There is also a repeated false allegation I libelled Ze or Dysk; yet last time I looked they're the people viciously smearing me on multiple websites as a child abuser and pedophile among many other outrageous claims. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 18:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) [[File:Tobias on kiwifarms 2019.png|thumb|500px|Smith calling the RationalWiki mods and sysops &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot;]] Smith you said after you wrote banned as [[User:Tobias]] that you would never return while calling the mods and sysops here &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot; and saying a highly transphobic homophobic, and ableist [[Kiwi Farms]] thread was true (See the image). Why are you back. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I agree, I think that Ze asks a fair question. That said I will add that I'm not in favour of anything other than a simple 2 way interaction ban on both Ze and Smith. Additionally, I think that Ze should be admonished for misuse of sysop. Everyone makes mistakes, but mistakes like that should never be repeated again. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::There's no transphobia, homophobia, and ableism in any of my comments on KF or anywhere else (not that I actually care). Furthermore it's pretty stupid to use that as a guilt by association fallacy when we both know you (Ze) are the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account I was responding to in that thread who was libelling me as a pedophile. To anyone who wants to actually check that full thread to get the context rather than believe Ze's quote-mines - notice my comment in the screenshot is only responding to &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; after I was provoked. And note how the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account identically matches Ze's posts and writing style, for example take the following comment they posted on Kiwi Farms: {{quotebox|May 18, 2019 Zionist Feminazi maybe the doxing has something to do with how her name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account and the harassment has something to do with how u went onto her talk page and discord to post threats and weird shit about the things u would do unless she redacted a wikipediocracy post to not mention ur insane brother who spends his time spamming reddit?}} To those familiar with Ze aka EK's writing style will know their usage of &quot;ur&quot;. Not only that but it matches identical claims they make here such as the dubious claims of doxing and how her account &quot;name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account&quot; (we've seen that same claim made above by Ze). Add this to the fact EK calls herself as a feminazi and elsewhere has claimed to support zionism plus that user only was posting in the RationalWiki and Mikemikev thread specifically to attack me -is rather conclusive its the same person. How many other people who support zionism and call themself a feminazi with the same writing style to Ze are there? I'm not sure how much more evidence other mods here would need. The fact they are denying this is them shows how highly deceptive they are. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::The Zionist Feminazi user on Kiwifarms is a former close friend of mine, I can confirm it's not Ze. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:32, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I would vote Aye, but 1) I'm not an eligible voter and 2) I think this proposal is ill concieved and we'd be better off if we did what WMF wikis do and implement a procedure for appealing bans that does not involve sockpuppetery. The problem with this proposal is that it encourages people who are banned to evade their bans. Hence invalidating their meaning and purpose. Not good. So if I were an eligible voter, I'd vote Nay, we're better off with the status quo, which at least wouldn't create a precedent that any ban retrospectively deemed &quot;invalid&quot; may simply be disregarded without consequence. This isn't an Anarchy, or a battleground. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:50, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't even understand whey this is a vote. Abd is a certified doxer. I'm not about to give Smith the benefit of the doubt, particularly if there is confirmation that Smith is a doxer. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Either way I think that Smith has admitted to being a sockpuppet of [[User:Tobias]] who has already been indefinitely banned. So I fully agree with you, on the basis of that evidence alone, there appears to be no need for a vote. I don't see why we can't just summarily ban Smith aka Tobias aka Flight instead of bothering with a vote, which is just a waste of everyone's time. If Smith wishes to appeal the ban, and sees it as unjust, and intends to edit there are already proper channels for doing so e.g. on his talk page (if not revoked), by email (if not revoked), or by Discord. If both his talk page, and email access have been revoked, and he is banned from the Discord server, then tough shit. That's his problem, not our problem. If that's the case then we can just ban him, then Forget It, Move On. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: @ Kiko and Bongolian - my Tobias account was banned without the correct procedure. It was banned with no discussion or vote based on a dubious claim of doxing. I dispute the doxing claim because all I did is link to Ze (aka EK) Wikipedia account. That's all I ever did. I don't consider that doxing. Ze's dubious claim is it was doxing because she had not mentioned/linked her Wikipedia account on RationalWiki. Wikipedia accounts are public. Perhaps the reason Ze acted the way they did is because their Wikipedia account is perm banned for trolling and they're a notorious sockpuppeteer - there's dozens of accounts banned under their name. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Are we going to ignore you doxing Greenrd, Occam, and that you posted Ze's full name which isn't in the Wikipedia link? Get real mate, you can focus on one thing, and there are a dozen more offenses I can list. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: You're a proven liar. Ze's full name is in the Wikipedia url I posted. A mere google search of &quot;Greenrd&quot; ''reveals his full name''. How is that doxing? This stuff is public and Greenrd connects his online pseudonym to his real name on multiple sites. Same for Captain Occam who has identified himself on blogs and forums (his real name) with his pseudonym. None of this is doxxing (revealing private information), but you know that. You've made up a tun of false allegations to smear me with. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Remarkably Smith, what you wrote there is proven lies by the suppression logs already posted on this page... I guess you are full of shite. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::: That's your and EK's usual response when you're been exposed as outright lying. &quot;It's the logs!&quot; when these aren't even viewable. And lol @ doxing Greenrd when his surname is his pseudonmyn. But I guess you're going to go back to spamming Reddit with your &quot;Oliver is a malicious doxxer&quot; crap. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od|:::::::}}Thanks for your response Smith, as a result I can now be satisfied so that I am sure (i.e. beyond a reasonable doubt) that you are the sockpuppet of a banned user i.e. Smith aka Tobias. Therefore, if I were an eligible voter I would definitely voting Aye. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 17:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :On that note, I feel that this coop will be pointless if I just block Smith to enforce his desire to LANCB. I have asked him to confirm that he desires to LANCB, and that he is happy for me to indefinitely block him to enforce his desire. If he does confirm that, then I will just indefinitely block him, and ask for this coop to be archived without a vote. Are there any objections? [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 08:36, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yes, I object. Too many people have LANCBed before only to return. And since Smith is notorious for his sockpuppetry, we need a 2/3 mob decision on whether all his current and future incarnations can be summarily banished. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 09:06, 17 September 2020 (UTC) :::I also object. Users shouldn't get away with no punishment just because they ragequit. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 09:15, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ===A summary of my actions wrongly claimed to be doxxing by EK and Dysk=== * Ze's former name on RationalWiki was EK. Those are her real name initials and she has a Wikipedia account (banned) under her real name. I linked to the Wikipedia account. * Greenrd pseudonym is his surname. All I did was Google his name and you get his full name including surname on plenty of sites. The first link on Google has Greenrd, his surname and first name (I won't here post, but its public). * Captain Occam (a banned Wikipedia troll) has identified his pseudonyms (Captain Occam, Occam) with his real name on blogs and forums. So how did I dox any of these people? Nothing I linked or posted was private information. If EK wanted to be anonymous in cyberspace why use her real name initials on RationalWiki and sign up a Wikipedia account with full real name? Based on the above false allegations of doxing I was incorrectly banned on the user:Tobias.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:49, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't think you or D/Ze should continue your slapfight on this website. It's been going on over a year on other platforms. You need to put an end to it and just agree to never talk to each other again. Users should stop arguing here and just wait to vote on the bans. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The problem is the mods or other users aren't looking at the evidence, some are uncritically going along with D/Ze's total BS and lies. I've never doxxed those 3 listed people. Anyone impartial can see that if they read my simple rebuttal above. No information I've posted is private but public.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Just because Ze volunteered her real life name on one platform, doesn't justify you revealing it on another one. Revealing her name on RW is doxxing. And you continuing to point out her real world initials should be reason for immediate block for as long as it takes until we get the permaban vote concluded. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 23:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Anyone can Google these peoples usernames and get their real life name because they are publicly attached to their accounts on other websites like Greenrd so it does not match the usual definition of &quot;doxing&quot; used in law because the information is public, not private. But there is a stricter definition of the term doxing on this website where you can not divulge any name from any external website even if it is public and connect it to a pseudonym. This sort of connecting the pieces research is forbidden. My advice is to close your account here and move on. Abd is not coming back here. You should not come back either. The best way to leave is by choice. The infighting on this website can be very toxic. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Four points as a rebuttal: :::::(1) They used their real name initials on RationalWiki. :::::(2) They use their first real name on RationalWiki-related discord chats. :::::(3) Ze claims their brother is Dysk; the latter's Wikipedia account is connected to his sisters and since Dysk has mentioned his Wikipedia identity on RationalWiki it was easy to find :::::(4) Finally, I don't use the weakened definition of doxing but the strong dictionary definition which contradicts what Coigreach said. Cambridge dictionary definition: &quot;the action of finding or publishing private information about someone on the internet without their permission, especially in a way that reveals their name, address, etc.&quot; Key word: private. EK signed up her real name on Wikipedia. How is that private? It isn't - Wikipedia is a public site. What would be doxing is if someone leaked actual private information including, for example a name behind a paywall site or credit card details. Guess what? [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 The former is what EK did to my brother] on the Wikipedocracy forum which is what I confronted them about on Tobias and asked them to retract where they did this. My brother was doxxed by a troll who put his name on the internet having paid for his information behind paywall site. My brother never released his name on any public website - yet EK went around the internet doxxing him on multiple websites. I then get banned for posting Ek's name after I was confronting them about doxxing my brother. You really couldn't make it up. Had they not doxxed my brother I wouldn't have looked into their identity and found their Wikipedia account. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 My actions were retaliatory]. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:39, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::: Ze/Abd have both been doxing your family so in retaliation you found her banned Wikipedia account name. I understand but this slap-fight has been going on too long. There is bad on all sides. Nobody is innocent here. Abd was the first to dox your family. Abd has quite an influence on Ze. I think the real issue here is him and his bad influence on some from this community. I mean it was him that started this flame war between you guys. But I am bored of this now and I going to sleep. My advice is to move on. These petty online feuds are not worth the time. I seriously think you should close your account on here. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 00:00, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::: (Edit conflict) (1) Again, it wasn't known that those were her real life initials until you brought it up. ::::::(2)I hold a strong belief that what happens in Discord should have no bearing here. ::::::(3)Just because it's easy to find doesn't mean it's justifiable to reveal. Also, what Dysk reveals shouldn't make it okay to reveal extended information about his (alleged) sister. ::::::(4)This ''is'' RationalWiki. And our more strict definition of Doxxing applies as far as the blocking policy is concerned. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 00:01, 16 September 2020 (UTC) It must be wonderful to have this much free time to spend hours doing pointless shittery, trolling, doxing, revenge bitching, online stalking and year long bickering all over the internet. Must be conducive to a truly content happy soul. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:24, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :Agreed but {{DFFT}} [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 17:40, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :: Back to reality: view my [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Flight&amp;dir=prev&amp;offset=20200908214141&amp;target=Flight user contributions]. My edit history on this wiki is adding mainspace articles - and I've added between 200 and 300 since 2012. My account Flight is only 2 weeks old, but has already made 3 lengthy articles such as [[spiteful mutant hypothesis]]. The behaviour you are describing is the total ''opposite'' of mine. I've never used this wiki for drama and I've virtually never posted in the saloon bar and with few exceptions (obviously if you exclude this coop where I protest an incorrect blocking procedure and a couple of talk pages), rarely post on non-mainspace articles. I also never joined any RationalWiki group or chat. I'm a solitary individual who never even made friends here over 8 years and only used this wiki to add constructive articles. I have no idea why people think I'm involved in shit-posting or trolling. As I said view my edit history. As far as drama, stalking or revenge bitching is concerned - Ze (aka EK) followed me on Twitter months back - I blocked them and told them to fuck off. Despite the misinformation saying otherwise, I have no interest in 'bickering all over the internet'. The only place off-this wiki I briefly mentioned my ban was on KF. My total post count there is very small and I haven't posted there for well over a year.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 18:47, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Your honesty is appreciated Smith, but the fact that you've already been convicted and sentenced, but are unlawfully at large, and clearly don't see anything wrong with your prior misconduct, are all things that strongly suggest that you need indefinite banning. This doesn't even need a vote in my opinion, a straight ban would be sufficient due process for you. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 21:57, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ==Indefinite ban for D== There is now solid evidence [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User:D D] has been looking up private IP data and using this data as a personal check-user. I also believe he has been sending that information to his friend [[Abd Lomax]] a hostile critic of this website who has threatened various editors here with legal action in the past. Even if he has not sent private information to Abd, he has violated users privacy. User Flight recently revealed this comment from D on Reddit: *&quot;''I can see the IP addresses Smith used on RationalWiki due to the fact I'm a tech there. Every single IP on a Smith account that I checked going back to 2016 or so was a VPN'' and ''I can clearly see the IP addresses Smith used on his accounts don't match his public IP address he used separately without an account. Furthermore, Smith has been recently editing RationalWiki using different IP addresses''. The link can be found here [https://archive.is/RMawd]. *D [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226696&amp;oldid=2226693 admits here] Abd is his friend and admits to trolling Wikipedia talk-pages. *Also D says he takes LSD [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226693&amp;oldid=2226681]. On Reddit D says he does much of his editing when he is high. *D is indefinitely banned on Wikipedia and uncyclopedia. Whilst bans off this website have no involvement in RationalWiki it does paint a picture that this user is a troll which he confesses to. Here D admits to trolling. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&amp;diff=2226685&amp;oldid=2226683 ''&quot;I personally remain banned from all Wikipedia projects, for trolling, and ban evasion'']. *D has been in communication with Abd Lomax for over a year. I received emails from Abd telling me he has private IP data of RationalWiki accounts. Abd has threatened to sue RationalWiki users in the past. *D and Ze invited Abd to join their discord server &quot;The Treehouse&quot; and made him a mod there. There are many chats there about RationalWiki with Abd. *Abd filed a lawsuit against Wikipedia (it was thrown out with prejudice) but in that lawsuit Abd mentioned RationalWiki as 'defaming' him [https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/14573324/lomax-v-wikimedia-foundation-inc/]. D has publicly posted on Reddit and Wikipediocracy that he supports Abd's lawsuit. *Here D admits nothing he posts is true, [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&amp;diff=2226689&amp;oldid=2226686]. Is this someone we want on the board of trustees? * The abuse of tech rights is outright ban offense. This is violation of privacy. Totally unacceptable. On any other wiki, this would not even be a vote. You need an indefinite ban on this user right now. Apparently tech rights has now been fixed so IP/s can not be seen but it is way too late. Privacy has been violated here. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 21:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::I fully agree, and would happily vote Aye, however I'm not an eligible voter. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 21:54, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::I wouldn't be in favour of banning (talking to Abd on Discord, taking LSD and being banned from other projects are not bannable offences). But I will say that [https://archive.is/RMawd comments Dysk made here] are extremely damning, and a very serious breach of tech privileges. I'd support re-looking at whether Dysk should have tech rights. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 22:00, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::: The ban is over the breach of tech privileges which violates privacy. The Abd link is very suspect but I have known about that for months. His behavior in regard to the IPs is absolutely unethical and outrageous. The trustees need to take action and suspend this user. I don't see how this can even be up for debate. Pinging the other trustees {{ping|GrammarCommie}}, {{ping|LeftyGreenMario}}, {{ping|FuzzyCatPotato}}, {{ping|Tmtoulouse}}, {{ping|Spud}}. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) ::::: If D isn't permanently banned, then I fully agree with RWRW on that one. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:11, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::In my opinion banning is not necessary, but tech removal is on the table. The ''suspicion'' of this sort of thing played a major role in removing tech rights from Oxy.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 22:17, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Yep - immediate loss of tech rights followed by vote on a ban. But who gives a shit about LSD? I've edited this site under influence of many substances. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:20, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::I've donned my mod hat and removed tech rights pending discussion about said rights. I think the offense is serious enough for immediate action. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:21, 16 September 2020 (UTC) {{od|:::::::::}} Fully agreed Ace. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:27, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :As far as I'm concerned, only the tech rights abuse is actionable. I don't care who D is friends with, nor what substances he abuses. I mostly edit when drunk. In fact I'm drunk right now. And extra wiki douchebaggery should be unpunishable 99.99% of the time :That said, the tech rights abuse is serious enough to warrant major punishment. I agree with Aces decision to unilaterally strip Dysks tech rights. The same should be done to Ze, who also admitted to the abuses. Furthermore a long block is warranted, even if permaban might be a bit too much for my liking. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 22:35, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::I'm somewhat tipsy already and it's 10:36am and I am in my office with the door closed. But yes - loss of tech rights is the least we can do for now. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:37, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Some of the evidence given is besides the point, if not particularly flattering (e.g. editing on acid). The IP issue is the crux of the matter and I think it is damning. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 22:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I agree Coigreach. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:45, 16 September 2020 (UTC) : I can dig up another Reddit comment in the same thread (I need to go through 100+ comments though...); an anonymous user asked Dysk for a specific log/IP detail of a RationalWiki account, and Dysk's response was he would give it in private (by private I assume email or the private message feature on Reddit). The main person Dysk has been discussing and likely giving IP data to in that [https://archive.is/RMawd Reddit thread] is [[Emil Kirkegaard]] who posts on Reddit as Deleetdk. There is no doubt the pseudonym Deleetdk is Kirkegaard and the Deleetdk account identifies as Emil. Deleetdk appears [https://archive.is/weUzS in the thread at least once.] The allegations by Kirkegaard and Dysk I use VPNs is false. Whatever IPs Dysk was discussing and presumably leaking (if they weren't public IP edits) to Kirkegaard weren't mine but other editors, though my real IP he probably gave to Kirkegaard but I've publicly edited on it on this wiki. lol. That's how stupid their false claim I use VPNs is.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:02, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::Can confirm that Deleetdk is openly Emil Kirkegaard - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 23:18, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Someone asked me for my opinion on this? Sure, whatever, have at it. Dysk doesn't show good judgement, that's not news. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 23:40, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Yes, by all means proceed with disciplinary action against D. ::::But I'd like to make it clear at this point that it is still my considered opinion that Oliver D. Smith is a horrible person just like the vast majority of his many online enemies are horrible people too. I think his ban as Tobias was legitimate and he shouldn't be editing here using another account now. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 00:48, 17 September 2020 (UTC) Is there any evidence d and ze are different people? Several other websites say they are the same person, do they need two accounts on here? [[Special:Contributions/82.132.231.117|82.132.231.117]] ([[User talk:82.132.231.117|talk]]) 09:22, 17 September 2020 (UTC) :There is no evidence, if anyone decides to post any I will ban them. Alright? {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:23, 17 September 2020 (UTC) === Statement by Dysk === Since Smith and Johns are now both openly lying about obvious facts, I'm gonna address a few points. * I've already pointed out that I did have access to IP addresses, that many of those belonged to Smith because he was doing most of the vandalism, and that I considered using it as a Checkuser. This much is not in dispute. * It has been claimed that I &quot;looked up IPs&quot;, this is simply not true. I saw IP addresses while dealing with the edit filter, as I rewrote all the filters here in 2019, added some new ones, and generally improved the false positive rate. At the time it wasn't possible to check the filter details without seeing IP addresses. I have a near photographic memory and after a time working on the edit filter, realised there were repeat patterns in who was trashing the wiki quite by chance. After this I discussed whether a checkuser capability would be possible or desirable, it was concluded not. * It has been claimed that I shared information with Abd Lomax, this is untrue. If Abd did get logs from this site that wasn't from me, and didn't happen on my Discord server. My involvement with Abd, was entirety related to his lawsuit against the Wikimedia Foundation, during the course of which we became friends. * It has been claimed that I shared information with Emil Kirkegaard, this is untrue. The only time I spoke to Kirkegaard he called me a traitor to western civilisation and threatened to murder my family. I have not been subsequently inclined to speak to him, although I followed his lawsuit against Oliver Smith. * It has been claimed that I shared information with an anonymous user on Reddit, this is not true. While talking to an account claiming to be &quot;The Real Oliver Smith&quot; on Reddit, I discussed whether Smith had used VPNs, my opinion on the matter was informed by my memory of his IP addresses from the time I'd worked on the edit filter. This user reached out to me in private to ask what information was accessible, but they were unable to verify their identity, and the conversation ended with no information disclosed. * It has been claimed that I edit this wiki while high, this is accurate. I don't believe that my ability to edit is substantially affected by this fact, indeed I'm currently smoking marijuana while writing this. * It has been implied that I have at some point recorded IP-Data from this wiki, this is untrue. At no point did I write any IP addresses down, record, or share with others any private information. * It has been claimed other tech users, such as Ze, and Oxyaena, and others I will not name, have accessed IP-Data. This is partly true. All current techs that have worked on the edit filter, will certainly have seen users IP addresses. There is no evidence that any tech took note of this, except for Oxyaena saying she did on the mod noticeboard. Users such as Ze, and The Crow, were aware of the IP address visibility, but there is no indication they misused this access. Ace has decided in his infinite wisdom to jump the gun and remove my Tech bit, again, despite the fact the access in dispute isn't possible now. Meanwhile others such as Spud, are posting in favour of removing all Techs and appointing new ones, as if there is an unlimited supply of people that do shite here. I personally believe that this is counterproductive to the maintenance of the wiki. Furthermore, I believe that rehashing shite that was throughly discussed and resolved months ago is a waste of time. Nevertheless it's up y'all to decide what to do with your time, carry on. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 11:29, 17 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2227354</id> <title>RationalWiki:Chicken coop</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2227354"/> <updated>2020-09-17T10:44:02Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Cultivating this many sockpuppets */ <hr /> <div>__NEWSECTIONLINK__{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}[[Category:RationalWiki]][[Category:RationalWiki moderation]][[Category:Turdblossoms]] [[Category:Shit articles]] {{hatnote|Not to be confused with the [[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation|moderator noticeboard]].}} {{talkpage |search=yes}} {{shortcut|RW:CC|RW:COOP}} &lt;!-- {{/status|}} --&gt; {{/status|3}} The '''chicken coop''' is for the avoidance, containment and resolution of cases of [[Headless Chicken Mode]] (HCM). Despite the name, this tends to be serious business. This page can be used for reporting cases of administrative abuse (abuse of [[RationalWiki:Sysop guide|sysop]] or [[RationalWiki:Moderators|moderator]] abilities such as blocking, page deletion, or user rights management), general abuse (such as [[troll]]ing, [[wandalism]], and personal attacks), and '''conflicts which cannot be solved through normal talk page discussion''' (such as long-standing edit wars or article content disputes). Please be specific and include links to any relevant discussions, page edits or logs. All editors are welcome to comment on the cases raised here, and to try to reach a consensus on any action to be taken. If no consensus can be reached, and the HCM seems to be escalating, moderators are expected to take some action. However, any serious or permanent solution, such as removal of rights or lengthy ban, requires a community vote here according to the guidelines laid out in our [[RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Voting|Community Standards]]. '''Please''' try to resolve conflicts directly through discussion on other editor's talk pages '''before''' reporting them. It's better to just talk to someone rather than try to drag their name through the mud. If the issue is not conflict resolution, but concerns RationalWiki policies, suggested changes to how things work around here, or similar matters of principle, please post '''[[RationalWiki talk:Community Standards|on the Community Standards talk page]] instead. When presenting a case here, be sure to include ''whom'' you are accusing, what exactly you are accusing them ''of'', some hard ''evidence'', and a brief ''explanation''. Since the sole purpose of the Coop is to resolve these disputes, don't post unrelated or more generalized complaints here — if you do, your posts will be moved off the page. Any vote started within 48 hours of filing will be deleted and you will be blocked. Use {{tl|CoopNotice}} to inform the user in question, so that they have a chance to discuss their actions here. As a final note, if you think this page is a good tactic to apply in gaming the mob into doing your bidding, you may be shocked to see your post archived ''quite'' swiftly. == Ban Smith == I propose to formally ban the user known as &quot;Smith&quot; for the offenses of: # Doxing me and at least 3 other members of this site on various talk pages here and creating at least 2 libellous attack pages on editors here. # Doxing members of this site on [[Kiwi Farms]] and Reddit and elsewhere. # Attempting to bulk delete pages here in [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?oldid=2040594 connection with] a lawsuit and causing disruption in the process along with arguably shifting the legal responsibility for those pages onto the site users who voted to keep them. # Deliberately introducing defamatory material to multiple pages as part of a [http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2019/3393.html dispute] with some crank. # Using this site to carry out a flame war with [[Mikemikev]] and [[Abd]] for several years including impersonating both on several occasions. # Vandalism and trolling with &quot;throwaway&quot; accounts to disrupt site processes on numerous occasions. I'm not going to specify any evidence because the most relevant evidence is suppressed and everyone with suppression access is well aware of the situation already. Just remember voting starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Discussion === :so we are being asked to vote to ban a user few of us actually know who they are with no evidence provided? another coop another farce. [[User:AMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] ([[User talk:AMassiveGay|talk]]) 12:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yes exactly that. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::It's honestly difficult to get the details clear, since a lot was suppressed. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus That said, this discussion remains] as well as the AfD Ze has linked. It appears to be tied to the [[Mikemikev]]/[[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]] drama, the former of whom got banned from RW for... what should frankly be obvious reasons (just read his page lol). I'll be frank, I won't vote in the Smith stuff since I don't know this particular drama shitstorm surrounding those two, but as far as I'm concerned, there is not exactly a great loss to the wiki should they remain gone? -Also just to quickly clarify, this coop isn't about nobs lol-. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Not banning him would kinda send the message that doxing is ok here so my vote is settled already. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Smith's only real activity here was and is meant to further internet grudges and escalate drama. It's caused problems on more than one occasion. Not an editor we need to keep around. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 13:21, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Funny comment considering I've added the most articles of any editor to RationalWiki. Most the people criticising me instead don't add constructive content but use this wiki as a chat-room such as Saloon bar (a place I've virtually never visited).[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: I've never doxed, impersonated or defamed anyone, notice as well no evidence is ever presented for these wild allegations. Ze has engaged in a gaslighting campaign against me for some time and nothing they post about me is accurate. They link to the preliminary judgement ''Kirkegaard v Smith [2019] EWHC 3393 (QB)'' but that has nothing to do with RationalWiki. I was never sued for comments I made on this wiki so claims I have posted libel on this wiki are blatantly false. And I won the lawsuit - Kirkegaard discontinued in May and has to pay my legal fees as the losing party. The preliminary judgement concerned fact versus opinion and ruled my comments were &quot;expressions of opinion and are defamatory&quot; ''however'' the judge pointed out &quot;For the avoidance of doubt, I am not deciding the question of serious harm under s 1 of the Defamation Act 2013.&quot; (the preliminary was to determine whether my comments were fact or opinion not the question of serious harm and I won it on the basis I was arguing my comments were opinions while Kirkegaard incorrectly said they were facts and he was criticised by the judge for taking my comments out of context). Had it gone to full trial or summary judgement (I filed for) a judge would have decided if my comments were either honest opinion (my legal defence) or defamation based on the serious harm question. Kirkegaard discontinued the lawsuit shortly before the judge was going to decide this knowing he/she would almost certainly have ruled my opinions were honestly held rather than defamation. So did I defame him? No. It' s highly misleading to say I did since my comments were upheld as honest opinion which provides a legal defence to defamation (other than truth) and he discontinued the lawsuit knowing the judge in the summary judgement would have ruled my comments did not cause him serious harm. Of course, I don't expect Ze (formerly EK) or Dysk (aka D) to acknowledge this and both of them have spent the past year character assassinating me on Reddit and various wiki-related forums over this lawsuit. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} :You doxed me [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=2073359&amp;oldid=2073357&amp;unhide=1 here] and then a bunch of other times that I could find if you really want and then doxed other editors later and when your comments were suppressed you went to do the same thing on other sites including [[Kiwi Farms]] whose users still follow me around to harrass even now because of it. {{User:Ze/?}} 14:02, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Upon further consideration, I changed my mind. I hadn't quite seen the KiwiFarms shit. Let me be clear here, anyone who is on that site and thinks that posting anything to do with a member here is an A-Okay thing can honestly and directly fuck off. Smith needs as far as I am concerned no more place here. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: I've never doxed Ze - they formerly used their name initials (EK) on RationalWiki which is public knowledge. They renamed their account. They were banned from Wikipedia for trolling using their real name. How is any of this doxing if they've publicly used their real name as their account name on Wikipedia and used their initials on RationalWiki? If you go down that road and define doxing as someone who posts public information then by the same definition Ze (aka EK) has doxed me by posting my name Oliver Smith all over the place.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: LOL. If you want to ban people who post on Kiwi Farms, then ban EK/Ze - she posts there and libelled me as a pedophile on an account. It would be pretty moronic to deny this is her since the account is an SPA dedicated to attacking me and contains the same &quot;feminazi&quot; name description. EK/Ze has been using Kiwi Farms to libel me for months.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} My account initials were never connected to any name until you decided to do that, obviously it was public knowledge after you made it public knowledge which is what you must have wanted. The Zionist Feminazi account on Kiwifarms is obviously not me, and in addition to calling you a pedophile it doxes LGM, posts personal information about Dysk, claims Bongolian is your brother, and calls various peeps here SJWs which tbf is fairly standard for all the posters on that thread. It also engages in severe transphobia against dysk which seems cringe and is ngl a lot like your own very transphobic comments about dysk you made [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&amp;target=Arthur+Kerensa&amp;timestamp=20190426123447 here] which is now suppressed. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :What personal info from me was revealed? DM may be appropriate. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account on Kiwifarms is Ze who calls herself a feminazi here. Ze and Dysk claim to be siblings in real life. The &quot;Zionist Feminist&quot; account on Kiwi Farms libeled me as a pedophile and it is ''only'' Ze/Dysk that repeats the libel on that account. Ze is also involved with Mikemikev drama and note the only other thread the Feminazi account on KF posted in is Mike's. There are plenty of other evidences that account is Ze.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: On Kiwi Farms there is talk that Ze and Dysk are the same person. On his Reddit account, Dysk posted several times he is in actual fact Ze. Does anyone know what all this is about, or is it an elaborate hoax? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::It's a well known fact nothing I post on Reddit is true, I have no idea why people still take me seriously there. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::&lt;s&gt;I disagree with a ban of Smith,&lt;/s&gt; I personally don't have an opinion either way. I'd say that a stern admonishment along with a 2 way interaction ban from contacting Ze (and vice-versa) &lt;s&gt;should be sufficient in my opinion&lt;/s&gt; would be a good idea in the event that Smith is not banned. Additionally, a preemptive sysoprevoke may be in order, especially with Ze active on the site. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Kiko you are a moron, if you want to comment, make an effort to understand the situation. You want an interaction ban for someone who doxed several editors? What a joke. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::: EK/Ze doxxed my brother and if they didn't do that I wouldn't have even looked into their identity and found their Wikipedia account. My actions were retaliatory - Proof is here. View this edit: https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 (this is me confronting Ze over the dox of my brother ''before'' I posted links to their Wikipedia account with their name). [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od|7}} Glad to see that you admit to doxing Ze now mate, your denials were fucking tiresome. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:59, 16 September 2020 (UTC) : I've rebutted that below. I never posted private information about your sister - she signed up a public Wikipedia account with her name. In contrast, your sister doxxed my brother's name on Wikipedocracy and other websites when he's never publicly revealed his name online. You have a penchant for projection. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::Dysk, there is no need for personal attacks. No I don't neccessarily want an interaction ban. I only said that this would be an option if Smith is not banned, whether as a result of this coop, or otherwise. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 17:46, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Kiko go and do something useful, like fucking yourself with a broom. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:28, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ===Cultivating this many sockpuppets=== I don't know, man. Sockpuppetry is not explicitly against our rules. In fact having sock accounts has largely been condoned in the past. But I can't help but feel that this Oliver D. Smith business has taken it to a whole other level. It may be worth it to ban them simply because they're more trouble than they're worth. We don't need to embroil RationalWiki in a conflict spanning half the internet, just for the sake of a single user. The scale of this is... disturbing.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 18:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't see the point in any of these debates. Smith and Ze have been involved in an online slap-fight for over a year its on Kiwi Farms, discord, Reddit etc. It's impossible to have both these people on the same website. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I'd be inclined to support banning Smith just based on the scale of the drama they're embroiled in. All sorts of websites and sockpuppets and angry basement-dwellers plus at least one court case. It's not worth it to allow any chance of all that garbage spilling onto RW. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:07, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::If you look up the Wikipedia clusterfuck, EK (Ze) was indef b&amp; as a sockpuppet of Dysk (indef b&amp; as either a suspected troll or irredeemable PITA). I'd provide links, but I can't be arsed with accusations of doxxing. This whole thing is weird AF. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 20:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Ze was originally blocked due to a technical link between us, this was overturned (for Ze) by a Wikimedia steward, based on showing identity documents. Terms of the unblock followed the WP:CLEANSTART guidelines and the original account remains locked. However, despite this I personally remain banned from all Wikipedia projects, for trolling, and ban evasion. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::We don't need the identity documents, obviously, but a link to the ruling would be nice-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::This was largely conducted in private on Wikimedia IRC, you will have to make do with the rather limited WP:AN ruling linked to my &quot;main&quot; Wikipedia account. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}{{ping|User:Dysklyver}} Pull the other one, son. Look, you've had a good run. Let's not spoil it by going down the very silly road of my-sister-totally-started-editing-Wikipedia-a-month-before-I-got-b&amp;-and-whilst-I-was-sockpuppeteering-like-crazy. Smell tests n' all that. I invite you to resign from the board of trustees, hand back both your tech bits, and decide whether you'll use your Dysk or Ze account for voting in future. Graceful exits on gentle off ramps ftw. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 01:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :1. RationalWiki has no rule against sockpuppetry it is a moot argument, nevertheless I will point out that nothing you wrote is true. :2. I've been sockpuppeting on Wikipedia since around 2006. Although my socks are assigned to various SPI cases, the oldest one blocked as &quot;Dysk&quot; is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Adek21 this] November 2006 account. Ze did not get blocked until 2018 (12 years later) and that was a quickly resolved mishap I caused quite accidentally. :3. I never stopped Sockpuppeting on Wikipedia and still edit articles there on a regular basis, occasionally I get banned this doesn't concern me. I haven't been banned for nearly 2 months. :4. I don't intend to quit the board without having pushed certain changes outlined in my candidacy statement, this isn't negotiable. :5. It's probable that I will lose Tech over the IP-Data visibility issue. Not because I did anything wrong, but because of what I said about it. :6. This is very much off-topic to this Coop case, if you have further questions take it to my DMs or Email. :Thanks. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 11:18, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::Thanks for the link. I hadn't dug any further than A____r K_____a, but my main concern now is your use of the Dysk and Ze accounts to sustain a &quot;doxxing&quot; drama that doesn't impact your RL identity at all. I get that you might be having tons of fun fucking with people on the internet, but bollocks to you indulging that shit here. You have an off ramp. Take it, please. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 18:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :: Dysklyver is banned from other wikis for sockpuppetry. [[Conservapedia]] on his blocked account says &quot;inconclusive but convincing checkuser evidence of sockpuppetry&quot;. And since he admits to socking on Wikipedia, was blocked for doing it on Conservapedia - it's almost certain he does it on RationalWiki. But as he says it's not against the rules here - however he's someone who has attacked me across the internet for owning &quot;hundreds of accounts&quot;. Likely projection since I don't that many (my estimate is 35-40, but that's over a 8 year period), perhaps he does though. And note he's publicly discussing his Wikipedia accounts he shares on an IP with his sister here, but made a dubious claim I doxxed his sister when I merely posted her Wikipedia account. (facepalm)[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:39, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::On that note Smith, the user account that you are using, [[User:Flight]] is a sockpuppet of a banned user. Is there any reason why this account should not be blocked? If there isn't then why even bother with a vote? Why not just proceed to blocking Smith? We can then review the block afterwards, if deemed appropriate. We have enough drama on this wiki without Smith, by allowing Smith to return we are only allowing more drama to take place here. Not good, and not rational either. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:07, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Feel free to link where Smith was banned mate. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:25, 17 September 2020 (UTC) {{ping|Flight}} I'm proud to be banned from Conservapedia for trolling, and I really love [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:DMorris&amp;diff=1504046&amp;oldid=1495433 what you wrote there as OliverS] (Oliver D. Smith) when I was blocked there by DMorris. {{quotebox|1=You should be very careful when dealing with users of RationalWiki. You were wrong in exposing yourself to them, but you were right in blocking that account. Dyskylver/Arthur Kerensa is a sock-puppet of Bongolian (a RationalWiki moderator), and also a notorious sock-puppeteer. He is also almost certainly the operator behind the &quot;John66&quot; account on RationalWiki. I can't prove any of these claims right now as so few edits have been done, but I will eventually be proved right. Dyskylver will pretend to be normal for a while like he did on his Wikipedia accounts, but sooner or later will reveal himself when he posts in support of anarchism. He is an active British Antifa and identifies as anarcho-communist. It is clear that all the accounts posting on the RationalWiki coop are accounts are operated by the same person to create the illusion of support. I also notice someone has created another sock with a name similar to the others to cause disruption here. Most likely the same individual behind this entire shit show. He is a dangerous ideologue, don't trust what he tells you. [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:DMorris&amp;diff=1504046&amp;oldid=1495433 OliverS talk 20:08, 23 March 2019 (EDT)] }} Of course there is no evidence that I'm not a sockpuppet of {{ping|Bongolian}} and there is no evidence {{ping|Johns}} (John66) isn't my account. I can personally vouch for the accuracy of Conservapedia, and of course you would never lie about me on a Trusworthy™ site, would you? {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:44, 17 September 2020 (UTC) == Ban Abd == I can't remember exactly what this guy did but allegedly trolling and doxing were involved. I think he created a blog to attack various editors after that and the validity of what he wrote there is disputed. Like Smith he was unilaterally banned by a sysop on the basis of doxing without a coop vote, so in the interests of fairness we will confirm this ban too at the same time. Remember that the vote starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority to pass. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I oppose having a vote to reinstate Abd because he has not petitioned for reinstatement of rights. It's a needless drama to rehash all of his bullshit (or anyone else's who hasn't petitioned). He appears to be a death's door according to D, and partly-confirmed by his own website. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 19:48, 16 September 2020 (UTC) === Disscussion === Seems like a wise idea, poking through history, it seems his community also was responsible for raiding RW or something? Anyway, that blog of his was in the abuse filter at some point if I'm not mistaken. Unlike Smith, I do think I can be confident in saying that blocking Abd is a good idea. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I mean in terms of damage Smith did more than Abd but yes both should be banned and this is more about procedure since both have been treated as banned for a long time and had hundreds of accounts blocked for ban evasion. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:26, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Abd Lomax is a threat to RationalWiki user's privacy and was rightly banned. He threatened to sue David Gerard and RationalWiki, he posted this on his website coldfusioncommunity in 2018 (if you want I can link to this). He later dropped this idea and filed a lawsuit against Wikipedia for banning him. His lawsuit against Wikipedia was dismissed with prejudice, but Abd claimed in this lawsuit that RationalWiki had 'defamed' him. On Abd's coldfusioncommunity website there are 50 negative articles dedicated to 'researching' RationalWiki editors such as Smith and their alleged sock-puppets. ::Lomax also doxed some RationalWiki staff on his website and some of that information is still live. Fuzzycatpotato has been doxed on Abd Lomax's website his real name and house address has been exposed. Ze is a close friend of Abd Lomax, indeed Lomax wrote on Reddit a few months ago he considers ZE like a &quot;daughter&quot;. Ze also has a discord &quot;The Treehouse&quot; and she invited Abd to join it, and made him a mod there. D/Ze have been in an online slapfight with Smith for a year spilling over multiple websites. We need someone totally uninvolved with this Abd or Smith drama to solve these matters. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 18:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I've only interacted with Abd once, but he did [http://coldfusioncommunity.net/anglo-pyramidologist/darryl-l-smith/skeptic-from-britain/comment-trolling/verifier/ post briefly about me on his site] (he did not doxx me) which brought it to my notice. He does seem to post a lot about RW stuff on his webpage. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Yeah well your like me anonymous so Abd can't get you but he tries to get hold of editors real life names, then he publishes it on his website. Does fuzzy know Abd has published his personal details? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I would vote Aye to a ban of Abd, but I've not been on here long enough. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : Abd was banned on [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Some_random_Smith Some random Smith] a suckpuppet using my surname and then editing Emil Kirkegaard's article when he knew I was involved at the time in a lawsuit with Kirkegaard. So I suspect this was an impersonation. Abd is a malicious troll and [[User_talk:Some_random_Smith#Hey_FYI|David Gerard blocked the Smith account]] recognising it was Abd. Abd falsely claims (without any evidence) I impersonate people on his blog - it's psychological projection and he's describing his own sick behaviour.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I could say the same about you. Funny how you have no self awareness, when you post obviously hypocritical statements. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: The difference is I've never impersonated anyone while Abd Lomax demonstrably has or at least he has used my surname on his sockpuppets. Who am I meant to have impersonated? And why has no mod blocked me for an impersonation? They only seem to exist in your imagination. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: D has admitted to being a [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226696&amp;oldid=2226693 friend] of Lomax. Ze is also a close friend of Abd. We need neutral users on here if any discussion is to go forward. Abd has personally harassed me over email so I am against him fully. I admit I hate this evil ol man! So I am not neutral. I suggest we all stop debating this topic and wait for the voting. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Abd is a great guy, that said, I don't oppose his ban on the grounds of doxing. Same with Smith, but Smith is actually a cunt. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 11:21, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I understand that you have a personal relationship with Abd, and I have no problem with that. Abd however is a lunatic ([[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax#Pseudoscience|pseudoscience promotion]]), a pest (repeated ban evasions), and a danger (doxing). He is not 'great'. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:04, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::That's all water under the bridge now, Abd needs banning in my opinion. Smith, however needs summary banning without a vote in my opinion. He is the sockpuppet of an indefinitely blocked user by his own admission. Why are we even wasting our valuable time feeding this troll? {{DFFT}} [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:15, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ==Invalid vote: started prematurely== '''As noted at the top of the page, since this vote did not start 48 hours after the beginning of the coop, it is therefore invalid.''' [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:11, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :This shit is so tiresome already, and we have to sit through another fucking day of this? {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 01:06, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ===Derp=== * I would settle for blocking my account on a voluntary basis i.e. post this user has decided to quit. Would I show up again? No. Because this time there was actually a Coop discussion rather than the irregular procedure of banning me via discord with no consensus or discussion. I returned to this wiki to add articles because there was no proper ban, rather, it was two problematic admins (Ze and Dysk) who banned me based on dubious allegations of doxing (I've rebutted these allegations above). There is also a repeated false allegation I libelled Ze or Dysk; yet last time I looked they're the people viciously smearing me on multiple websites as a child abuser and pedophile among many other outrageous claims. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 18:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) [[File:Tobias on kiwifarms 2019.png|thumb|500px|Smith calling the RationalWiki mods and sysops &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot;]] Smith you said after you wrote banned as [[User:Tobias]] that you would never return while calling the mods and sysops here &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot; and saying a highly transphobic homophobic, and ableist [[Kiwi Farms]] thread was true (See the image). Why are you back. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I agree, I think that Ze asks a fair question. That said I will add that I'm not in favour of anything other than a simple 2 way interaction ban on both Ze and Smith. Additionally, I think that Ze should be admonished for misuse of sysop. Everyone makes mistakes, but mistakes like that should never be repeated again. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::There's no transphobia, homophobia, and ableism in any of my comments on KF or anywhere else (not that I actually care). Furthermore it's pretty stupid to use that as a guilt by association fallacy when we both know you (Ze) are the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account I was responding to in that thread who was libelling me as a pedophile. To anyone who wants to actually check that full thread to get the context rather than believe Ze's quote-mines - notice my comment in the screenshot is only responding to &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; after I was provoked. And note how the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account identically matches Ze's posts and writing style, for example take the following comment they posted on Kiwi Farms: {{quotebox|May 18, 2019 Zionist Feminazi maybe the doxing has something to do with how her name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account and the harassment has something to do with how u went onto her talk page and discord to post threats and weird shit about the things u would do unless she redacted a wikipediocracy post to not mention ur insane brother who spends his time spamming reddit?}} To those familiar with Ze aka EK's writing style will know their usage of &quot;ur&quot;. Not only that but it matches identical claims they make here such as the dubious claims of doxing and how her account &quot;name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account&quot; (we've seen that same claim made above by Ze). Add this to the fact EK calls herself as a feminazi and elsewhere has claimed to support zionism plus that user only was posting in the RationalWiki and Mikemikev thread specifically to attack me -is rather conclusive its the same person. How many other people who support zionism and call themself a feminazi with the same writing style to Ze are there? I'm not sure how much more evidence other mods here would need. The fact they are denying this is them shows how highly deceptive they are. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::The Zionist Feminazi user on Kiwifarms is a former close friend of mine, I can confirm it's not Ze. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:32, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I would vote Aye, but 1) I'm not an eligible voter and 2) I think this proposal is ill concieved and we'd be better off if we did what WMF wikis do and implement a procedure for appealing bans that does not involve sockpuppetery. The problem with this proposal is that it encourages people who are banned to evade their bans. Hence invalidating their meaning and purpose. Not good. So if I were an eligible voter, I'd vote Nay, we're better off with the status quo, which at least wouldn't create a precedent that any ban retrospectively deemed &quot;invalid&quot; may simply be disregarded without consequence. This isn't an Anarchy, or a battleground. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:50, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't even understand whey this is a vote. Abd is a certified doxer. I'm not about to give Smith the benefit of the doubt, particularly if there is confirmation that Smith is a doxer. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Either way I think that Smith has admitted to being a sockpuppet of [[User:Tobias]] who has already been indefinitely banned. So I fully agree with you, on the basis of that evidence alone, there appears to be no need for a vote. I don't see why we can't just summarily ban Smith aka Tobias aka Flight instead of bothering with a vote, which is just a waste of everyone's time. If Smith wishes to appeal the ban, and sees it as unjust, and intends to edit there are already proper channels for doing so e.g. on his talk page (if not revoked), by email (if not revoked), or by Discord. If both his talk page, and email access have been revoked, and he is banned from the Discord server, then tough shit. That's his problem, not our problem. If that's the case then we can just ban him, then Forget It, Move On. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: @ Kiko and Bongolian - my Tobias account was banned without the correct procedure. It was banned with no discussion or vote based on a dubious claim of doxing. I dispute the doxing claim because all I did is link to Ze (aka EK) Wikipedia account. That's all I ever did. I don't consider that doxing. Ze's dubious claim is it was doxing because she had not mentioned/linked her Wikipedia account on RationalWiki. Wikipedia accounts are public. Perhaps the reason Ze acted the way they did is because their Wikipedia account is perm banned for trolling and they're a notorious sockpuppeteer - there's dozens of accounts banned under their name. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Are we going to ignore you doxing Greenrd, Occam, and that you posted Ze's full name which isn't in the Wikipedia link? Get real mate, you can focus on one thing, and there are a dozen more offenses I can list. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: You're a proven liar. Ze's full name is in the Wikipedia url I posted. A mere google search of &quot;Greenrd&quot; ''reveals his full name''. How is that doxing? This stuff is public and Greenrd connects his online pseudonym to his real name on multiple sites. Same for Captain Occam who has identified himself on blogs and forums (his real name) with his pseudonym. None of this is doxxing (revealing private information), but you know that. You've made up a tun of false allegations to smear me with. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Remarkably Smith, what you wrote there is proven lies by the suppression logs already posted on this page... I guess you are full of shite. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::: That's your and EK's usual response when you're been exposed as outright lying. &quot;It's the logs!&quot; when these aren't even viewable. And lol @ doxing Greenrd when his surname is his pseudonmyn. But I guess you're going to go back to spamming Reddit with your &quot;Oliver is a malicious doxxer&quot; crap. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od|:::::::}}Thanks for your response Smith, as a result I can now be satisfied so that I am sure (i.e. beyond a reasonable doubt) that you are the sockpuppet of a banned user i.e. Smith aka Tobias. Therefore, if I were an eligible voter I would definitely voting Aye. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 17:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :On that note, I feel that this coop will be pointless if I just block Smith to enforce his desire to LANCB. I have asked him to confirm that he desires to LANCB, and that he is happy for me to indefinitely block him to enforce his desire. If he does confirm that, then I will just indefinitely block him, and ask for this coop to be archived without a vote. Are there any objections? [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 08:36, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yes, I object. Too many people have LANCBed before only to return. And since Smith is notorious for his sockpuppetry, we need a 2/3 mob decision on whether all his current and future incarnations can be summarily banished. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 09:06, 17 September 2020 (UTC) :::I also object. Users shouldn't get away with no punishment just because they ragequit. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 09:15, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ===A summary of my actions wrongly claimed to be doxxing by EK and Dysk=== * Ze's former name on RationalWiki was EK. Those are her real name initials and she has a Wikipedia account (banned) under her real name. I linked to the Wikipedia account. * Greenrd pseudonym is his surname. All I did was Google his name and you get his full name including surname on plenty of sites. The first link on Google has Greenrd, his surname and first name (I won't here post, but its public). * Captain Occam (a banned Wikipedia troll) has identified his pseudonyms (Captain Occam, Occam) with his real name on blogs and forums. So how did I dox any of these people? Nothing I linked or posted was private information. If EK wanted to be anonymous in cyberspace why use her real name initials on RationalWiki and sign up a Wikipedia account with full real name? Based on the above false allegations of doxing I was incorrectly banned on the user:Tobias.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:49, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't think you or D/Ze should continue your slapfight on this website. It's been going on over a year on other platforms. You need to put an end to it and just agree to never talk to each other again. Users should stop arguing here and just wait to vote on the bans. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The problem is the mods or other users aren't looking at the evidence, some are uncritically going along with D/Ze's total BS and lies. I've never doxxed those 3 listed people. Anyone impartial can see that if they read my simple rebuttal above. No information I've posted is private but public.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Just because Ze volunteered her real life name on one platform, doesn't justify you revealing it on another one. Revealing her name on RW is doxxing. And you continuing to point out her real world initials should be reason for immediate block for as long as it takes until we get the permaban vote concluded. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 23:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Anyone can Google these peoples usernames and get their real life name because they are publicly attached to their accounts on other websites like Greenrd so it does not match the usual definition of &quot;doxing&quot; used in law because the information is public, not private. But there is a stricter definition of the term doxing on this website where you can not divulge any name from any external website even if it is public and connect it to a pseudonym. This sort of connecting the pieces research is forbidden. My advice is to close your account here and move on. Abd is not coming back here. You should not come back either. The best way to leave is by choice. The infighting on this website can be very toxic. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Four points as a rebuttal: :::::(1) They used their real name initials on RationalWiki. :::::(2) They use their first real name on RationalWiki-related discord chats. :::::(3) Ze claims their brother is Dysk; the latter's Wikipedia account is connected to his sisters and since Dysk has mentioned his Wikipedia identity on RationalWiki it was easy to find :::::(4) Finally, I don't use the weakened definition of doxing but the strong dictionary definition which contradicts what Coigreach said. Cambridge dictionary definition: &quot;the action of finding or publishing private information about someone on the internet without their permission, especially in a way that reveals their name, address, etc.&quot; Key word: private. EK signed up her real name on Wikipedia. How is that private? It isn't - Wikipedia is a public site. What would be doxing is if someone leaked actual private information including, for example a name behind a paywall site or credit card details. Guess what? [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 The former is what EK did to my brother] on the Wikipedocracy forum which is what I confronted them about on Tobias and asked them to retract where they did this. My brother was doxxed by a troll who put his name on the internet having paid for his information behind paywall site. My brother never released his name on any public website - yet EK went around the internet doxxing him on multiple websites. I then get banned for posting Ek's name after I was confronting them about doxxing my brother. You really couldn't make it up. Had they not doxxed my brother I wouldn't have looked into their identity and found their Wikipedia account. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 My actions were retaliatory]. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:39, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::: Ze/Abd have both been doxing your family so in retaliation you found her banned Wikipedia account name. I understand but this slap-fight has been going on too long. There is bad on all sides. Nobody is innocent here. Abd was the first to dox your family. Abd has quite an influence on Ze. I think the real issue here is him and his bad influence on some from this community. I mean it was him that started this flame war between you guys. But I am bored of this now and I going to sleep. My advice is to move on. These petty online feuds are not worth the time. I seriously think you should close your account on here. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 00:00, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::: (Edit conflict) (1) Again, it wasn't known that those were her real life initials until you brought it up. ::::::(2)I hold a strong belief that what happens in Discord should have no bearing here. ::::::(3)Just because it's easy to find doesn't mean it's justifiable to reveal. Also, what Dysk reveals shouldn't make it okay to reveal extended information about his (alleged) sister. ::::::(4)This ''is'' RationalWiki. And our more strict definition of Doxxing applies as far as the blocking policy is concerned. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 00:01, 16 September 2020 (UTC) It must be wonderful to have this much free time to spend hours doing pointless shittery, trolling, doxing, revenge bitching, online stalking and year long bickering all over the internet. Must be conducive to a truly content happy soul. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:24, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :Agreed but {{DFFT}} [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 17:40, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :: Back to reality: view my [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Flight&amp;dir=prev&amp;offset=20200908214141&amp;target=Flight user contributions]. My edit history on this wiki is adding mainspace articles - and I've added between 200 and 300 since 2012. My account Flight is only 2 weeks old, but has already made 3 lengthy articles such as [[spiteful mutant hypothesis]]. The behaviour you are describing is the total ''opposite'' of mine. I've never used this wiki for drama and I've virtually never posted in the saloon bar and with few exceptions (obviously if you exclude this coop where I protest an incorrect blocking procedure and a couple of talk pages), rarely post on non-mainspace articles. I also never joined any RationalWiki group or chat. I'm a solitary individual who never even made friends here over 8 years and only used this wiki to add constructive articles. I have no idea why people think I'm involved in shit-posting or trolling. As I said view my edit history. As far as drama, stalking or revenge bitching is concerned - Ze (aka EK) followed me on Twitter months back - I blocked them and told them to fuck off. Despite the misinformation saying otherwise, I have no interest in 'bickering all over the internet'. The only place off-this wiki I briefly mentioned my ban was on KF. My total post count there is very small and I haven't posted there for well over a year.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 18:47, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Your honesty is appreciated Smith, but the fact that you've already been convicted and sentenced, but are unlawfully at large, and clearly don't see anything wrong with your prior misconduct, are all things that strongly suggest that you need indefinite banning. This doesn't even need a vote in my opinion, a straight ban would be sufficient due process for you. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 21:57, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ==Indefinite ban for D== There is now solid evidence [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User:D D] has been looking up private IP data and using this data as a personal check-user. I also believe he has been sending that information to his friend [[Abd Lomax]] a hostile critic of this website who has threatened various editors here with legal action in the past. Even if he has not sent private information to Abd, he has violated users privacy. User Flight recently revealed this comment from D on Reddit: *&quot;''I can see the IP addresses Smith used on RationalWiki due to the fact I'm a tech there. Every single IP on a Smith account that I checked going back to 2016 or so was a VPN'' and ''I can clearly see the IP addresses Smith used on his accounts don't match his public IP address he used separately without an account. Furthermore, Smith has been recently editing RationalWiki using different IP addresses''. The link can be found here [https://archive.is/RMawd]. *D [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226696&amp;oldid=2226693 admits here] Abd is his friend and admits to trolling Wikipedia talk-pages. *Also D says he takes LSD [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226693&amp;oldid=2226681]. On Reddit D says he does much of his editing when he is high. *D is indefinitely banned on Wikipedia and uncyclopedia. Whilst bans off this website have no involvement in RationalWiki it does paint a picture that this user is a troll which he confesses to. Here D admits to trolling. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&amp;diff=2226685&amp;oldid=2226683 ''&quot;I personally remain banned from all Wikipedia projects, for trolling, and ban evasion'']. *D has been in communication with Abd Lomax for over a year. I received emails from Abd telling me he has private IP data of RationalWiki accounts. Abd has threatened to sue RationalWiki users in the past. *D and Ze invited Abd to join their discord server &quot;The Treehouse&quot; and made him a mod there. There are many chats there about RationalWiki with Abd. *Abd filed a lawsuit against Wikipedia (it was thrown out with prejudice) but in that lawsuit Abd mentioned RationalWiki as 'defaming' him [https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/14573324/lomax-v-wikimedia-foundation-inc/]. D has publicly posted on Reddit and Wikipediocracy that he supports Abd's lawsuit. *Here D admits nothing he posts is true, [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&amp;diff=2226689&amp;oldid=2226686]. Is this someone we want on the board of trustees? * The abuse of tech rights is outright ban offense. This is violation of privacy. Totally unacceptable. On any other wiki, this would not even be a vote. You need an indefinite ban on this user right now. Apparently tech rights has now been fixed so IP/s can not be seen but it is way too late. Privacy has been violated here. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 21:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::I fully agree, and would happily vote Aye, however I'm not an eligible voter. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 21:54, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::I wouldn't be in favour of banning (talking to Abd on Discord, taking LSD and being banned from other projects are not bannable offences). But I will say that [https://archive.is/RMawd comments Dysk made here] are extremely damning, and a very serious breach of tech privileges. I'd support re-looking at whether Dysk should have tech rights. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 22:00, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::: The ban is over the breach of tech privileges which violates privacy. The Abd link is very suspect but I have known about that for months. His behavior in regard to the IPs is absolutely unethical and outrageous. The trustees need to take action and suspend this user. I don't see how this can even be up for debate. Pinging the other trustees {{ping|GrammarCommie}}, {{ping|LeftyGreenMario}}, {{ping|FuzzyCatPotato}}, {{ping|Tmtoulouse}}, {{ping|Spud}}. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) ::::: If D isn't permanently banned, then I fully agree with RWRW on that one. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:11, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::In my opinion banning is not necessary, but tech removal is on the table. The ''suspicion'' of this sort of thing played a major role in removing tech rights from Oxy.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 22:17, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Yep - immediate loss of tech rights followed by vote on a ban. But who gives a shit about LSD? I've edited this site under influence of many substances. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:20, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::I've donned my mod hat and removed tech rights pending discussion about said rights. I think the offense is serious enough for immediate action. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:21, 16 September 2020 (UTC) {{od|:::::::::}} Fully agreed Ace. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:27, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :As far as I'm concerned, only the tech rights abuse is actionable. I don't care who D is friends with, nor what substances he abuses. I mostly edit when drunk. In fact I'm drunk right now. And extra wiki douchebaggery should be unpunishable 99.99% of the time :That said, the tech rights abuse is serious enough to warrant major punishment. I agree with Aces decision to unilaterally strip Dysks tech rights. The same should be done to Ze, who also admitted to the abuses. Furthermore a long block is warranted, even if permaban might be a bit too much for my liking. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 22:35, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::I'm somewhat tipsy already and it's 10:36am and I am in my office with the door closed. But yes - loss of tech rights is the least we can do for now. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:37, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Some of the evidence given is besides the point, if not particularly flattering (e.g. editing on acid). The IP issue is the crux of the matter and I think it is damning. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 22:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I agree Coigreach. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:45, 16 September 2020 (UTC) : I can dig up another Reddit comment in the same thread (I need to go through 100+ comments though...); an anonymous user asked Dysk for a specific log/IP detail of a RationalWiki account, and Dysk's response was he would give it in private (by private I assume email or the private message feature on Reddit). The main person Dysk has been discussing and likely giving IP data to in that [https://archive.is/RMawd Reddit thread] is [[Emil Kirkegaard]] who posts on Reddit as Deleetdk. There is no doubt the pseudonym Deleetdk is Kirkegaard and the Deleetdk account identifies as Emil. Deleetdk appears [https://archive.is/weUzS in the thread at least once.] The allegations by Kirkegaard and Dysk I use VPNs is false. Whatever IPs Dysk was discussing and presumably leaking (if they weren't public IP edits) to Kirkegaard weren't mine but other editors, though my real IP he probably gave to Kirkegaard but I've publicly edited on it on this wiki. lol. That's how stupid their false claim I use VPNs is.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:02, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::Can confirm that Deleetdk is openly Emil Kirkegaard - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 23:18, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Someone asked me for my opinion on this? Sure, whatever, have at it. Dysk doesn't show good judgement, that's not news. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 23:40, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Yes, by all means proceed with disciplinary action against D. ::::But I'd like to make it clear at this point that it is still my considered opinion that Oliver D. Smith is a horrible person just like the vast majority of his many online enemies are horrible people too. I think his ban as Tobias was legitimate and he shouldn't be editing here using another account now. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 00:48, 17 September 2020 (UTC) Is there any evidence d and ze are different people? Several other websites say they are the same person, do they need two accounts on here? [[Special:Contributions/82.132.231.117|82.132.231.117]] ([[User talk:82.132.231.117|talk]]) 09:22, 17 September 2020 (UTC) :There is no evidence, if anyone decides to post any I will ban them. Alright? {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:23, 17 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2227349</id> <title>RationalWiki:Chicken coop</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2227349"/> <updated>2020-09-17T10:28:57Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Discussion */ <hr /> <div>__NEWSECTIONLINK__{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}[[Category:RationalWiki]][[Category:RationalWiki moderation]][[Category:Turdblossoms]] [[Category:Shit articles]] {{hatnote|Not to be confused with the [[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation|moderator noticeboard]].}} {{talkpage |search=yes}} {{shortcut|RW:CC|RW:COOP}} &lt;!-- {{/status|}} --&gt; {{/status|3}} The '''chicken coop''' is for the avoidance, containment and resolution of cases of [[Headless Chicken Mode]] (HCM). Despite the name, this tends to be serious business. This page can be used for reporting cases of administrative abuse (abuse of [[RationalWiki:Sysop guide|sysop]] or [[RationalWiki:Moderators|moderator]] abilities such as blocking, page deletion, or user rights management), general abuse (such as [[troll]]ing, [[wandalism]], and personal attacks), and '''conflicts which cannot be solved through normal talk page discussion''' (such as long-standing edit wars or article content disputes). Please be specific and include links to any relevant discussions, page edits or logs. All editors are welcome to comment on the cases raised here, and to try to reach a consensus on any action to be taken. If no consensus can be reached, and the HCM seems to be escalating, moderators are expected to take some action. However, any serious or permanent solution, such as removal of rights or lengthy ban, requires a community vote here according to the guidelines laid out in our [[RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Voting|Community Standards]]. '''Please''' try to resolve conflicts directly through discussion on other editor's talk pages '''before''' reporting them. It's better to just talk to someone rather than try to drag their name through the mud. If the issue is not conflict resolution, but concerns RationalWiki policies, suggested changes to how things work around here, or similar matters of principle, please post '''[[RationalWiki talk:Community Standards|on the Community Standards talk page]] instead. When presenting a case here, be sure to include ''whom'' you are accusing, what exactly you are accusing them ''of'', some hard ''evidence'', and a brief ''explanation''. Since the sole purpose of the Coop is to resolve these disputes, don't post unrelated or more generalized complaints here — if you do, your posts will be moved off the page. Any vote started within 48 hours of filing will be deleted and you will be blocked. Use {{tl|CoopNotice}} to inform the user in question, so that they have a chance to discuss their actions here. As a final note, if you think this page is a good tactic to apply in gaming the mob into doing your bidding, you may be shocked to see your post archived ''quite'' swiftly. == Ban Smith == I propose to formally ban the user known as &quot;Smith&quot; for the offenses of: # Doxing me and at least 3 other members of this site on various talk pages here and creating at least 2 libellous attack pages on editors here. # Doxing members of this site on [[Kiwi Farms]] and Reddit and elsewhere. # Attempting to bulk delete pages here in [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?oldid=2040594 connection with] a lawsuit and causing disruption in the process along with arguably shifting the legal responsibility for those pages onto the site users who voted to keep them. # Deliberately introducing defamatory material to multiple pages as part of a [http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2019/3393.html dispute] with some crank. # Using this site to carry out a flame war with [[Mikemikev]] and [[Abd]] for several years including impersonating both on several occasions. # Vandalism and trolling with &quot;throwaway&quot; accounts to disrupt site processes on numerous occasions. I'm not going to specify any evidence because the most relevant evidence is suppressed and everyone with suppression access is well aware of the situation already. Just remember voting starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Discussion === :so we are being asked to vote to ban a user few of us actually know who they are with no evidence provided? another coop another farce. [[User:AMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] ([[User talk:AMassiveGay|talk]]) 12:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yes exactly that. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::It's honestly difficult to get the details clear, since a lot was suppressed. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus That said, this discussion remains] as well as the AfD Ze has linked. It appears to be tied to the [[Mikemikev]]/[[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]] drama, the former of whom got banned from RW for... what should frankly be obvious reasons (just read his page lol). I'll be frank, I won't vote in the Smith stuff since I don't know this particular drama shitstorm surrounding those two, but as far as I'm concerned, there is not exactly a great loss to the wiki should they remain gone? -Also just to quickly clarify, this coop isn't about nobs lol-. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Not banning him would kinda send the message that doxing is ok here so my vote is settled already. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Smith's only real activity here was and is meant to further internet grudges and escalate drama. It's caused problems on more than one occasion. Not an editor we need to keep around. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 13:21, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Funny comment considering I've added the most articles of any editor to RationalWiki. Most the people criticising me instead don't add constructive content but use this wiki as a chat-room such as Saloon bar (a place I've virtually never visited).[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: I've never doxed, impersonated or defamed anyone, notice as well no evidence is ever presented for these wild allegations. Ze has engaged in a gaslighting campaign against me for some time and nothing they post about me is accurate. They link to the preliminary judgement ''Kirkegaard v Smith [2019] EWHC 3393 (QB)'' but that has nothing to do with RationalWiki. I was never sued for comments I made on this wiki so claims I have posted libel on this wiki are blatantly false. And I won the lawsuit - Kirkegaard discontinued in May and has to pay my legal fees as the losing party. The preliminary judgement concerned fact versus opinion and ruled my comments were &quot;expressions of opinion and are defamatory&quot; ''however'' the judge pointed out &quot;For the avoidance of doubt, I am not deciding the question of serious harm under s 1 of the Defamation Act 2013.&quot; (the preliminary was to determine whether my comments were fact or opinion not the question of serious harm and I won it on the basis I was arguing my comments were opinions while Kirkegaard incorrectly said they were facts and he was criticised by the judge for taking my comments out of context). Had it gone to full trial or summary judgement (I filed for) a judge would have decided if my comments were either honest opinion (my legal defence) or defamation based on the serious harm question. Kirkegaard discontinued the lawsuit shortly before the judge was going to decide this knowing he/she would almost certainly have ruled my opinions were honestly held rather than defamation. So did I defame him? No. It' s highly misleading to say I did since my comments were upheld as honest opinion which provides a legal defence to defamation (other than truth) and he discontinued the lawsuit knowing the judge in the summary judgement would have ruled my comments did not cause him serious harm. Of course, I don't expect Ze (formerly EK) or Dysk (aka D) to acknowledge this and both of them have spent the past year character assassinating me on Reddit and various wiki-related forums over this lawsuit. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} :You doxed me [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=2073359&amp;oldid=2073357&amp;unhide=1 here] and then a bunch of other times that I could find if you really want and then doxed other editors later and when your comments were suppressed you went to do the same thing on other sites including [[Kiwi Farms]] whose users still follow me around to harrass even now because of it. {{User:Ze/?}} 14:02, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Upon further consideration, I changed my mind. I hadn't quite seen the KiwiFarms shit. Let me be clear here, anyone who is on that site and thinks that posting anything to do with a member here is an A-Okay thing can honestly and directly fuck off. Smith needs as far as I am concerned no more place here. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: I've never doxed Ze - they formerly used their name initials (EK) on RationalWiki which is public knowledge. They renamed their account. They were banned from Wikipedia for trolling using their real name. How is any of this doxing if they've publicly used their real name as their account name on Wikipedia and used their initials on RationalWiki? If you go down that road and define doxing as someone who posts public information then by the same definition Ze (aka EK) has doxed me by posting my name Oliver Smith all over the place.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: LOL. If you want to ban people who post on Kiwi Farms, then ban EK/Ze - she posts there and libelled me as a pedophile on an account. It would be pretty moronic to deny this is her since the account is an SPA dedicated to attacking me and contains the same &quot;feminazi&quot; name description. EK/Ze has been using Kiwi Farms to libel me for months.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} My account initials were never connected to any name until you decided to do that, obviously it was public knowledge after you made it public knowledge which is what you must have wanted. The Zionist Feminazi account on Kiwifarms is obviously not me, and in addition to calling you a pedophile it doxes LGM, posts personal information about Dysk, claims Bongolian is your brother, and calls various peeps here SJWs which tbf is fairly standard for all the posters on that thread. It also engages in severe transphobia against dysk which seems cringe and is ngl a lot like your own very transphobic comments about dysk you made [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&amp;target=Arthur+Kerensa&amp;timestamp=20190426123447 here] which is now suppressed. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :What personal info from me was revealed? DM may be appropriate. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account on Kiwifarms is Ze who calls herself a feminazi here. Ze and Dysk claim to be siblings in real life. The &quot;Zionist Feminist&quot; account on Kiwi Farms libeled me as a pedophile and it is ''only'' Ze/Dysk that repeats the libel on that account. Ze is also involved with Mikemikev drama and note the only other thread the Feminazi account on KF posted in is Mike's. There are plenty of other evidences that account is Ze.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: On Kiwi Farms there is talk that Ze and Dysk are the same person. On his Reddit account, Dysk posted several times he is in actual fact Ze. Does anyone know what all this is about, or is it an elaborate hoax? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::It's a well known fact nothing I post on Reddit is true, I have no idea why people still take me seriously there. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::&lt;s&gt;I disagree with a ban of Smith,&lt;/s&gt; I personally don't have an opinion either way. I'd say that a stern admonishment along with a 2 way interaction ban from contacting Ze (and vice-versa) &lt;s&gt;should be sufficient in my opinion&lt;/s&gt; would be a good idea in the event that Smith is not banned. Additionally, a preemptive sysoprevoke may be in order, especially with Ze active on the site. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Kiko you are a moron, if you want to comment, make an effort to understand the situation. You want an interaction ban for someone who doxed several editors? What a joke. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::: EK/Ze doxxed my brother and if they didn't do that I wouldn't have even looked into their identity and found their Wikipedia account. My actions were retaliatory - Proof is here. View this edit: https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 (this is me confronting Ze over the dox of my brother ''before'' I posted links to their Wikipedia account with their name). [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od|7}} Glad to see that you admit to doxing Ze now mate, your denials were fucking tiresome. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:59, 16 September 2020 (UTC) : I've rebutted that below. I never posted private information about your sister - she signed up a public Wikipedia account with her name. In contrast, your sister doxxed my brother's name on Wikipedocracy and other websites when he's never publicly revealed his name online. You have a penchant for projection. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::Dysk, there is no need for personal attacks. No I don't neccessarily want an interaction ban. I only said that this would be an option if Smith is not banned, whether as a result of this coop, or otherwise. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 17:46, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Kiko go and do something useful, like fucking yourself with a broom. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:28, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ===Cultivating this many sockpuppets=== I don't know, man. Sockpuppetry is not explicitly against our rules. In fact having sock accounts has largely been condoned in the past. But I can't help but feel that this Oliver D. Smith business has taken it to a whole other level. It may be worth it to ban them simply because they're more trouble than they're worth. We don't need to embroil RationalWiki in a conflict spanning half the internet, just for the sake of a single user. The scale of this is... disturbing.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 18:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't see the point in any of these debates. Smith and Ze have been involved in an online slap-fight for over a year its on Kiwi Farms, discord, Reddit etc. It's impossible to have both these people on the same website. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I'd be inclined to support banning Smith just based on the scale of the drama they're embroiled in. All sorts of websites and sockpuppets and angry basement-dwellers plus at least one court case. It's not worth it to allow any chance of all that garbage spilling onto RW. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:07, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::If you look up the Wikipedia clusterfuck, EK (Ze) was indef b&amp; as a sockpuppet of Dysk (indef b&amp; as either a suspected troll or irredeemable PITA). I'd provide links, but I can't be arsed with accusations of doxxing. This whole thing is weird AF. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 20:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Ze was originally blocked due to a technical link between us, this was overturned (for Ze) by a Wikimedia steward, based on showing identity documents. Terms of the unblock followed the WP:CLEANSTART guidelines and the original account remains locked. However, despite this I personally remain banned from all Wikipedia projects, for trolling, and ban evasion. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::We don't need the identity documents, obviously, but a link to the ruling would be nice-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::This was largely conducted in private on Wikimedia IRC, you will have to make do with the rather limited WP:AN ruling linked to my &quot;main&quot; Wikipedia account. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}{{ping|User:Dysklyver}} Pull the other one, son. Look, you've had a good run. Let's not spoil it by going down the very silly road of my-sister-totally-started-editing-Wikipedia-a-month-before-I-got-b&amp;-and-whilst-I-was-sockpuppeteering-like-crazy. Smell tests n' all that. I invite you to resign from the board of trustees, hand back both your tech bits, and decide whether you'll use your Dysk or Ze account for voting in future. Graceful exits on gentle off ramps ftw. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 01:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :1. RationalWiki has no rule against sockpuppetry it is a moot argument, nevertheless I will point out that nothing you wrote is true. :2. I've been sockpuppeting on Wikipedia since around 2006. Although my socks are assigned to various SPI cases, the oldest one blocked as &quot;Dysk&quot; is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Adek21 this] November 2006 account. Ze did not get blocked until 2018 (12 years later) and that was a quickly resolved mishap I caused quite accidentally. :3. I never stopped Sockpuppeting on Wikipedia and still edit articles there on a regular basis, occasionally I get banned this doesn't concern me. I haven't been banned for nearly 2 months. :4. I don't intend to quit the board without having pushed certain changes outlined in my candidacy statement, this isn't negotiable. :5. It's probable that I will lose Tech over the IP-Data visibility issue. Not because I did anything wrong, but because of what I said about it. :6. This is very much off-topic to this Coop case, if you have further questions take it to my DMs or Email. :Thanks. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 11:18, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::Thanks for the link. I hadn't dug any further than A____r K_____a, but my main concern now is your use of the Dysk and Ze accounts to sustain a &quot;doxxing&quot; drama that doesn't impact your RL identity at all. I get that you might be having tons of fun fucking with people on the internet, but bollocks to you indulging that shit here. You have an off ramp. Take it, please. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 18:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :: Dysklyver is banned from other wikis for sockpuppetry. [[Conservapedia]] on his blocked account says &quot;inconclusive but convincing checkuser evidence of sockpuppetry&quot;. And since he admits to socking on Wikipedia, was blocked for doing it on Conservapedia - it's almost certain he does it on RationalWiki. But as he says it's not against the rules here - however he's someone who has attacked me across the internet for owning &quot;hundreds of accounts&quot;. Likely projection since I don't that many (my estimate is 35-40, but that's over a 8 year period), perhaps he does though. And note he's publicly discussing his Wikipedia accounts he shares on an IP with his sister here, but made a dubious claim I doxxed his sister when I merely posted her Wikipedia account. (facepalm)[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:39, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::On that note Smith, the user account that you are using, [[User:Flight]] is a sockpuppet of a banned user. Is there any reason why this account should not be blocked? If there isn't then why even bother with a vote? Why not just proceed to blocking Smith? We can then review the block afterwards, if deemed appropriate. We have enough drama on this wiki without Smith, by allowing Smith to return we are only allowing more drama to take place here. Not good, and not rational either. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:07, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Feel free to link where Smith was banned mate. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:25, 17 September 2020 (UTC) == Ban Abd == I can't remember exactly what this guy did but allegedly trolling and doxing were involved. I think he created a blog to attack various editors after that and the validity of what he wrote there is disputed. Like Smith he was unilaterally banned by a sysop on the basis of doxing without a coop vote, so in the interests of fairness we will confirm this ban too at the same time. Remember that the vote starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority to pass. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I oppose having a vote to reinstate Abd because he has not petitioned for reinstatement of rights. It's a needless drama to rehash all of his bullshit (or anyone else's who hasn't petitioned). He appears to be a death's door according to D, and partly-confirmed by his own website. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 19:48, 16 September 2020 (UTC) === Disscussion === Seems like a wise idea, poking through history, it seems his community also was responsible for raiding RW or something? Anyway, that blog of his was in the abuse filter at some point if I'm not mistaken. Unlike Smith, I do think I can be confident in saying that blocking Abd is a good idea. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I mean in terms of damage Smith did more than Abd but yes both should be banned and this is more about procedure since both have been treated as banned for a long time and had hundreds of accounts blocked for ban evasion. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:26, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Abd Lomax is a threat to RationalWiki user's privacy and was rightly banned. He threatened to sue David Gerard and RationalWiki, he posted this on his website coldfusioncommunity in 2018 (if you want I can link to this). He later dropped this idea and filed a lawsuit against Wikipedia for banning him. His lawsuit against Wikipedia was dismissed with prejudice, but Abd claimed in this lawsuit that RationalWiki had 'defamed' him. On Abd's coldfusioncommunity website there are 50 negative articles dedicated to 'researching' RationalWiki editors such as Smith and their alleged sock-puppets. ::Lomax also doxed some RationalWiki staff on his website and some of that information is still live. Fuzzycatpotato has been doxed on Abd Lomax's website his real name and house address has been exposed. Ze is a close friend of Abd Lomax, indeed Lomax wrote on Reddit a few months ago he considers ZE like a &quot;daughter&quot;. Ze also has a discord &quot;The Treehouse&quot; and she invited Abd to join it, and made him a mod there. D/Ze have been in an online slapfight with Smith for a year spilling over multiple websites. We need someone totally uninvolved with this Abd or Smith drama to solve these matters. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 18:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I've only interacted with Abd once, but he did [http://coldfusioncommunity.net/anglo-pyramidologist/darryl-l-smith/skeptic-from-britain/comment-trolling/verifier/ post briefly about me on his site] (he did not doxx me) which brought it to my notice. He does seem to post a lot about RW stuff on his webpage. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Yeah well your like me anonymous so Abd can't get you but he tries to get hold of editors real life names, then he publishes it on his website. Does fuzzy know Abd has published his personal details? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I would vote Aye to a ban of Abd, but I've not been on here long enough. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : Abd was banned on [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Some_random_Smith Some random Smith] a suckpuppet using my surname and then editing Emil Kirkegaard's article when he knew I was involved at the time in a lawsuit with Kirkegaard. So I suspect this was an impersonation. Abd is a malicious troll and [[User_talk:Some_random_Smith#Hey_FYI|David Gerard blocked the Smith account]] recognising it was Abd. Abd falsely claims (without any evidence) I impersonate people on his blog - it's psychological projection and he's describing his own sick behaviour.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I could say the same about you. Funny how you have no self awareness, when you post obviously hypocritical statements. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: The difference is I've never impersonated anyone while Abd Lomax demonstrably has or at least he has used my surname on his sockpuppets. Who am I meant to have impersonated? And why has no mod blocked me for an impersonation? They only seem to exist in your imagination. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: D has admitted to being a [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226696&amp;oldid=2226693 friend] of Lomax. Ze is also a close friend of Abd. We need neutral users on here if any discussion is to go forward. Abd has personally harassed me over email so I am against him fully. I admit I hate this evil ol man! So I am not neutral. I suggest we all stop debating this topic and wait for the voting. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Abd is a great guy, that said, I don't oppose his ban on the grounds of doxing. Same with Smith, but Smith is actually a cunt. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 11:21, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I understand that you have a personal relationship with Abd, and I have no problem with that. Abd however is a lunatic ([[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax#Pseudoscience|pseudoscience promotion]]), a pest (repeated ban evasions), and a danger (doxing). He is not 'great'. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:04, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::That's all water under the bridge now, Abd needs banning in my opinion. Smith, however needs summary banning without a vote in my opinion. He is the sockpuppet of an indefinitely blocked user by his own admission. Why are we even wasting our valuable time feeding this troll? {{DFFT}} [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:15, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ==Invalid vote: started prematurely== '''As noted at the top of the page, since this vote did not start 48 hours after the beginning of the coop, it is therefore invalid.''' [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:11, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :This shit is so tiresome already, and we have to sit through another fucking day of this? {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 01:06, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ===Derp=== * I would settle for blocking my account on a voluntary basis i.e. post this user has decided to quit. Would I show up again? No. Because this time there was actually a Coop discussion rather than the irregular procedure of banning me via discord with no consensus or discussion. I returned to this wiki to add articles because there was no proper ban, rather, it was two problematic admins (Ze and Dysk) who banned me based on dubious allegations of doxing (I've rebutted these allegations above). There is also a repeated false allegation I libelled Ze or Dysk; yet last time I looked they're the people viciously smearing me on multiple websites as a child abuser and pedophile among many other outrageous claims. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 18:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) [[File:Tobias on kiwifarms 2019.png|thumb|500px|Smith calling the RationalWiki mods and sysops &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot;]] Smith you said after you wrote banned as [[User:Tobias]] that you would never return while calling the mods and sysops here &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot; and saying a highly transphobic homophobic, and ableist [[Kiwi Farms]] thread was true (See the image). Why are you back. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I agree, I think that Ze asks a fair question. That said I will add that I'm not in favour of anything other than a simple 2 way interaction ban on both Ze and Smith. Additionally, I think that Ze should be admonished for misuse of sysop. Everyone makes mistakes, but mistakes like that should never be repeated again. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::There's no transphobia, homophobia, and ableism in any of my comments on KF or anywhere else (not that I actually care). Furthermore it's pretty stupid to use that as a guilt by association fallacy when we both know you (Ze) are the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account I was responding to in that thread who was libelling me as a pedophile. To anyone who wants to actually check that full thread to get the context rather than believe Ze's quote-mines - notice my comment in the screenshot is only responding to &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; after I was provoked. And note how the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account identically matches Ze's posts and writing style, for example take the following comment they posted on Kiwi Farms: {{quotebox|May 18, 2019 Zionist Feminazi maybe the doxing has something to do with how her name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account and the harassment has something to do with how u went onto her talk page and discord to post threats and weird shit about the things u would do unless she redacted a wikipediocracy post to not mention ur insane brother who spends his time spamming reddit?}} To those familiar with Ze aka EK's writing style will know their usage of &quot;ur&quot;. Not only that but it matches identical claims they make here such as the dubious claims of doxing and how her account &quot;name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account&quot; (we've seen that same claim made above by Ze). Add this to the fact EK calls herself as a feminazi and elsewhere has claimed to support zionism plus that user only was posting in the RationalWiki and Mikemikev thread specifically to attack me -is rather conclusive its the same person. How many other people who support zionism and call themself a feminazi with the same writing style to Ze are there? I'm not sure how much more evidence other mods here would need. The fact they are denying this is them shows how highly deceptive they are. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::The Zionist Feminazi user on Kiwifarms is a former close friend of mine, I can confirm it's not Ze. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:32, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I would vote Aye, but 1) I'm not an eligible voter and 2) I think this proposal is ill concieved and we'd be better off if we did what WMF wikis do and implement a procedure for appealing bans that does not involve sockpuppetery. The problem with this proposal is that it encourages people who are banned to evade their bans. Hence invalidating their meaning and purpose. Not good. So if I were an eligible voter, I'd vote Nay, we're better off with the status quo, which at least wouldn't create a precedent that any ban retrospectively deemed &quot;invalid&quot; may simply be disregarded without consequence. This isn't an Anarchy, or a battleground. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:50, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't even understand whey this is a vote. Abd is a certified doxer. I'm not about to give Smith the benefit of the doubt, particularly if there is confirmation that Smith is a doxer. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Either way I think that Smith has admitted to being a sockpuppet of [[User:Tobias]] who has already been indefinitely banned. So I fully agree with you, on the basis of that evidence alone, there appears to be no need for a vote. I don't see why we can't just summarily ban Smith aka Tobias aka Flight instead of bothering with a vote, which is just a waste of everyone's time. If Smith wishes to appeal the ban, and sees it as unjust, and intends to edit there are already proper channels for doing so e.g. on his talk page (if not revoked), by email (if not revoked), or by Discord. If both his talk page, and email access have been revoked, and he is banned from the Discord server, then tough shit. That's his problem, not our problem. If that's the case then we can just ban him, then Forget It, Move On. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: @ Kiko and Bongolian - my Tobias account was banned without the correct procedure. It was banned with no discussion or vote based on a dubious claim of doxing. I dispute the doxing claim because all I did is link to Ze (aka EK) Wikipedia account. That's all I ever did. I don't consider that doxing. Ze's dubious claim is it was doxing because she had not mentioned/linked her Wikipedia account on RationalWiki. Wikipedia accounts are public. Perhaps the reason Ze acted the way they did is because their Wikipedia account is perm banned for trolling and they're a notorious sockpuppeteer - there's dozens of accounts banned under their name. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Are we going to ignore you doxing Greenrd, Occam, and that you posted Ze's full name which isn't in the Wikipedia link? Get real mate, you can focus on one thing, and there are a dozen more offenses I can list. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: You're a proven liar. Ze's full name is in the Wikipedia url I posted. A mere google search of &quot;Greenrd&quot; ''reveals his full name''. How is that doxing? This stuff is public and Greenrd connects his online pseudonym to his real name on multiple sites. Same for Captain Occam who has identified himself on blogs and forums (his real name) with his pseudonym. None of this is doxxing (revealing private information), but you know that. You've made up a tun of false allegations to smear me with. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Remarkably Smith, what you wrote there is proven lies by the suppression logs already posted on this page... I guess you are full of shite. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::: That's your and EK's usual response when you're been exposed as outright lying. &quot;It's the logs!&quot; when these aren't even viewable. And lol @ doxing Greenrd when his surname is his pseudonmyn. But I guess you're going to go back to spamming Reddit with your &quot;Oliver is a malicious doxxer&quot; crap. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od|:::::::}}Thanks for your response Smith, as a result I can now be satisfied so that I am sure (i.e. beyond a reasonable doubt) that you are the sockpuppet of a banned user i.e. Smith aka Tobias. Therefore, if I were an eligible voter I would definitely voting Aye. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 17:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :On that note, I feel that this coop will be pointless if I just block Smith to enforce his desire to LANCB. I have asked him to confirm that he desires to LANCB, and that he is happy for me to indefinitely block him to enforce his desire. If he does confirm that, then I will just indefinitely block him, and ask for this coop to be archived without a vote. Are there any objections? [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 08:36, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yes, I object. Too many people have LANCBed before only to return. And since Smith is notorious for his sockpuppetry, we need a 2/3 mob decision on whether all his current and future incarnations can be summarily banished. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 09:06, 17 September 2020 (UTC) :::I also object. Users shouldn't get away with no punishment just because they ragequit. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 09:15, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ===A summary of my actions wrongly claimed to be doxxing by EK and Dysk=== * Ze's former name on RationalWiki was EK. Those are her real name initials and she has a Wikipedia account (banned) under her real name. I linked to the Wikipedia account. * Greenrd pseudonym is his surname. All I did was Google his name and you get his full name including surname on plenty of sites. The first link on Google has Greenrd, his surname and first name (I won't here post, but its public). * Captain Occam (a banned Wikipedia troll) has identified his pseudonyms (Captain Occam, Occam) with his real name on blogs and forums. So how did I dox any of these people? Nothing I linked or posted was private information. If EK wanted to be anonymous in cyberspace why use her real name initials on RationalWiki and sign up a Wikipedia account with full real name? Based on the above false allegations of doxing I was incorrectly banned on the user:Tobias.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:49, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't think you or D/Ze should continue your slapfight on this website. It's been going on over a year on other platforms. You need to put an end to it and just agree to never talk to each other again. Users should stop arguing here and just wait to vote on the bans. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The problem is the mods or other users aren't looking at the evidence, some are uncritically going along with D/Ze's total BS and lies. I've never doxxed those 3 listed people. Anyone impartial can see that if they read my simple rebuttal above. No information I've posted is private but public.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Just because Ze volunteered her real life name on one platform, doesn't justify you revealing it on another one. Revealing her name on RW is doxxing. And you continuing to point out her real world initials should be reason for immediate block for as long as it takes until we get the permaban vote concluded. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 23:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Anyone can Google these peoples usernames and get their real life name because they are publicly attached to their accounts on other websites like Greenrd so it does not match the usual definition of &quot;doxing&quot; used in law because the information is public, not private. But there is a stricter definition of the term doxing on this website where you can not divulge any name from any external website even if it is public and connect it to a pseudonym. This sort of connecting the pieces research is forbidden. My advice is to close your account here and move on. Abd is not coming back here. You should not come back either. The best way to leave is by choice. The infighting on this website can be very toxic. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Four points as a rebuttal: :::::(1) They used their real name initials on RationalWiki. :::::(2) They use their first real name on RationalWiki-related discord chats. :::::(3) Ze claims their brother is Dysk; the latter's Wikipedia account is connected to his sisters and since Dysk has mentioned his Wikipedia identity on RationalWiki it was easy to find :::::(4) Finally, I don't use the weakened definition of doxing but the strong dictionary definition which contradicts what Coigreach said. Cambridge dictionary definition: &quot;the action of finding or publishing private information about someone on the internet without their permission, especially in a way that reveals their name, address, etc.&quot; Key word: private. EK signed up her real name on Wikipedia. How is that private? It isn't - Wikipedia is a public site. What would be doxing is if someone leaked actual private information including, for example a name behind a paywall site or credit card details. Guess what? [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 The former is what EK did to my brother] on the Wikipedocracy forum which is what I confronted them about on Tobias and asked them to retract where they did this. My brother was doxxed by a troll who put his name on the internet having paid for his information behind paywall site. My brother never released his name on any public website - yet EK went around the internet doxxing him on multiple websites. I then get banned for posting Ek's name after I was confronting them about doxxing my brother. You really couldn't make it up. Had they not doxxed my brother I wouldn't have looked into their identity and found their Wikipedia account. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 My actions were retaliatory]. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:39, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::: Ze/Abd have both been doxing your family so in retaliation you found her banned Wikipedia account name. I understand but this slap-fight has been going on too long. There is bad on all sides. Nobody is innocent here. Abd was the first to dox your family. Abd has quite an influence on Ze. I think the real issue here is him and his bad influence on some from this community. I mean it was him that started this flame war between you guys. But I am bored of this now and I going to sleep. My advice is to move on. These petty online feuds are not worth the time. I seriously think you should close your account on here. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 00:00, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::: (Edit conflict) (1) Again, it wasn't known that those were her real life initials until you brought it up. ::::::(2)I hold a strong belief that what happens in Discord should have no bearing here. ::::::(3)Just because it's easy to find doesn't mean it's justifiable to reveal. Also, what Dysk reveals shouldn't make it okay to reveal extended information about his (alleged) sister. ::::::(4)This ''is'' RationalWiki. And our more strict definition of Doxxing applies as far as the blocking policy is concerned. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 00:01, 16 September 2020 (UTC) It must be wonderful to have this much free time to spend hours doing pointless shittery, trolling, doxing, revenge bitching, online stalking and year long bickering all over the internet. Must be conducive to a truly content happy soul. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:24, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :Agreed but {{DFFT}} [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 17:40, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :: Back to reality: view my [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Flight&amp;dir=prev&amp;offset=20200908214141&amp;target=Flight user contributions]. My edit history on this wiki is adding mainspace articles - and I've added between 200 and 300 since 2012. My account Flight is only 2 weeks old, but has already made 3 lengthy articles such as [[spiteful mutant hypothesis]]. The behaviour you are describing is the total ''opposite'' of mine. I've never used this wiki for drama and I've virtually never posted in the saloon bar and with few exceptions (obviously if you exclude this coop where I protest an incorrect blocking procedure and a couple of talk pages), rarely post on non-mainspace articles. I also never joined any RationalWiki group or chat. I'm a solitary individual who never even made friends here over 8 years and only used this wiki to add constructive articles. I have no idea why people think I'm involved in shit-posting or trolling. As I said view my edit history. As far as drama, stalking or revenge bitching is concerned - Ze (aka EK) followed me on Twitter months back - I blocked them and told them to fuck off. Despite the misinformation saying otherwise, I have no interest in 'bickering all over the internet'. The only place off-this wiki I briefly mentioned my ban was on KF. My total post count there is very small and I haven't posted there for well over a year.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 18:47, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Your honesty is appreciated Smith, but the fact that you've already been convicted and sentenced, but are unlawfully at large, and clearly don't see anything wrong with your prior misconduct, are all things that strongly suggest that you need indefinite banning. This doesn't even need a vote in my opinion, a straight ban would be sufficient due process for you. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 21:57, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ==Indefinite ban for D== There is now solid evidence [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User:D D] has been looking up private IP data and using this data as a personal check-user. I also believe he has been sending that information to his friend [[Abd Lomax]] a hostile critic of this website who has threatened various editors here with legal action in the past. Even if he has not sent private information to Abd, he has violated users privacy. User Flight recently revealed this comment from D on Reddit: *&quot;''I can see the IP addresses Smith used on RationalWiki due to the fact I'm a tech there. Every single IP on a Smith account that I checked going back to 2016 or so was a VPN'' and ''I can clearly see the IP addresses Smith used on his accounts don't match his public IP address he used separately without an account. Furthermore, Smith has been recently editing RationalWiki using different IP addresses''. The link can be found here [https://archive.is/RMawd]. *D [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226696&amp;oldid=2226693 admits here] Abd is his friend and admits to trolling Wikipedia talk-pages. *Also D says he takes LSD [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226693&amp;oldid=2226681]. On Reddit D says he does much of his editing when he is high. *D is indefinitely banned on Wikipedia and uncyclopedia. Whilst bans off this website have no involvement in RationalWiki it does paint a picture that this user is a troll which he confesses to. Here D admits to trolling. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&amp;diff=2226685&amp;oldid=2226683 ''&quot;I personally remain banned from all Wikipedia projects, for trolling, and ban evasion'']. *D has been in communication with Abd Lomax for over a year. I received emails from Abd telling me he has private IP data of RationalWiki accounts. Abd has threatened to sue RationalWiki users in the past. *D and Ze invited Abd to join their discord server &quot;The Treehouse&quot; and made him a mod there. There are many chats there about RationalWiki with Abd. *Abd filed a lawsuit against Wikipedia (it was thrown out with prejudice) but in that lawsuit Abd mentioned RationalWiki as 'defaming' him [https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/14573324/lomax-v-wikimedia-foundation-inc/]. D has publicly posted on Reddit and Wikipediocracy that he supports Abd's lawsuit. *Here D admits nothing he posts is true, [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&amp;diff=2226689&amp;oldid=2226686]. Is this someone we want on the board of trustees? * The abuse of tech rights is outright ban offense. This is violation of privacy. Totally unacceptable. On any other wiki, this would not even be a vote. You need an indefinite ban on this user right now. Apparently tech rights has now been fixed so IP/s can not be seen but it is way too late. Privacy has been violated here. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 21:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::I fully agree, and would happily vote Aye, however I'm not an eligible voter. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 21:54, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::I wouldn't be in favour of banning (talking to Abd on Discord, taking LSD and being banned from other projects are not bannable offences). But I will say that [https://archive.is/RMawd comments Dysk made here] are extremely damning, and a very serious breach of tech privileges. I'd support re-looking at whether Dysk should have tech rights. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 22:00, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::: The ban is over the breach of tech privileges which violates privacy. The Abd link is very suspect but I have known about that for months. His behavior in regard to the IPs is absolutely unethical and outrageous. The trustees need to take action and suspend this user. I don't see how this can even be up for debate. Pinging the other trustees {{ping|GrammarCommie}}, {{ping|LeftyGreenMario}}, {{ping|FuzzyCatPotato}}, {{ping|Tmtoulouse}}, {{ping|Spud}}. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) ::::: If D isn't permanently banned, then I fully agree with RWRW on that one. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:11, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::In my opinion banning is not necessary, but tech removal is on the table. The ''suspicion'' of this sort of thing played a major role in removing tech rights from Oxy.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 22:17, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Yep - immediate loss of tech rights followed by vote on a ban. But who gives a shit about LSD? I've edited this site under influence of many substances. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:20, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::I've donned my mod hat and removed tech rights pending discussion about said rights. I think the offense is serious enough for immediate action. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:21, 16 September 2020 (UTC) {{od|:::::::::}} Fully agreed Ace. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:27, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :As far as I'm concerned, only the tech rights abuse is actionable. I don't care who D is friends with, nor what substances he abuses. I mostly edit when drunk. In fact I'm drunk right now. And extra wiki douchebaggery should be unpunishable 99.99% of the time :That said, the tech rights abuse is serious enough to warrant major punishment. I agree with Aces decision to unilaterally strip Dysks tech rights. The same should be done to Ze, who also admitted to the abuses. Furthermore a long block is warranted, even if permaban might be a bit too much for my liking. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 22:35, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::I'm somewhat tipsy already and it's 10:36am and I am in my office with the door closed. But yes - loss of tech rights is the least we can do for now. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:37, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Some of the evidence given is besides the point, if not particularly flattering (e.g. editing on acid). The IP issue is the crux of the matter and I think it is damning. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 22:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I agree Coigreach. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:45, 16 September 2020 (UTC) : I can dig up another Reddit comment in the same thread (I need to go through 100+ comments though...); an anonymous user asked Dysk for a specific log/IP detail of a RationalWiki account, and Dysk's response was he would give it in private (by private I assume email or the private message feature on Reddit). The main person Dysk has been discussing and likely giving IP data to in that [https://archive.is/RMawd Reddit thread] is [[Emil Kirkegaard]] who posts on Reddit as Deleetdk. There is no doubt the pseudonym Deleetdk is Kirkegaard and the Deleetdk account identifies as Emil. Deleetdk appears [https://archive.is/weUzS in the thread at least once.] The allegations by Kirkegaard and Dysk I use VPNs is false. Whatever IPs Dysk was discussing and presumably leaking (if they weren't public IP edits) to Kirkegaard weren't mine but other editors, though my real IP he probably gave to Kirkegaard but I've publicly edited on it on this wiki. lol. That's how stupid their false claim I use VPNs is.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:02, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::Can confirm that Deleetdk is openly Emil Kirkegaard - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 23:18, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Someone asked me for my opinion on this? Sure, whatever, have at it. Dysk doesn't show good judgement, that's not news. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 23:40, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Yes, by all means proceed with disciplinary action against D. ::::But I'd like to make it clear at this point that it is still my considered opinion that Oliver D. Smith is a horrible person just like the vast majority of his many online enemies are horrible people too. I think his ban as Tobias was legitimate and he shouldn't be editing here using another account now. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 00:48, 17 September 2020 (UTC) Is there any evidence d and ze are different people? Several other websites say they are the same person, do they need two accounts on here? [[Special:Contributions/82.132.231.117|82.132.231.117]] ([[User talk:82.132.231.117|talk]]) 09:22, 17 September 2020 (UTC) :There is no evidence, if anyone decides to post any I will ban them. Alright? {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:23, 17 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2227347</id> <title>RationalWiki:Chicken coop</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2227347"/> <updated>2020-09-17T10:26:23Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Cultivating this many sockpuppets */ <hr /> <div>__NEWSECTIONLINK__{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}[[Category:RationalWiki]][[Category:RationalWiki moderation]][[Category:Turdblossoms]] [[Category:Shit articles]] {{hatnote|Not to be confused with the [[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation|moderator noticeboard]].}} {{talkpage |search=yes}} {{shortcut|RW:CC|RW:COOP}} &lt;!-- {{/status|}} --&gt; {{/status|3}} The '''chicken coop''' is for the avoidance, containment and resolution of cases of [[Headless Chicken Mode]] (HCM). Despite the name, this tends to be serious business. This page can be used for reporting cases of administrative abuse (abuse of [[RationalWiki:Sysop guide|sysop]] or [[RationalWiki:Moderators|moderator]] abilities such as blocking, page deletion, or user rights management), general abuse (such as [[troll]]ing, [[wandalism]], and personal attacks), and '''conflicts which cannot be solved through normal talk page discussion''' (such as long-standing edit wars or article content disputes). Please be specific and include links to any relevant discussions, page edits or logs. All editors are welcome to comment on the cases raised here, and to try to reach a consensus on any action to be taken. If no consensus can be reached, and the HCM seems to be escalating, moderators are expected to take some action. However, any serious or permanent solution, such as removal of rights or lengthy ban, requires a community vote here according to the guidelines laid out in our [[RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Voting|Community Standards]]. '''Please''' try to resolve conflicts directly through discussion on other editor's talk pages '''before''' reporting them. It's better to just talk to someone rather than try to drag their name through the mud. If the issue is not conflict resolution, but concerns RationalWiki policies, suggested changes to how things work around here, or similar matters of principle, please post '''[[RationalWiki talk:Community Standards|on the Community Standards talk page]] instead. When presenting a case here, be sure to include ''whom'' you are accusing, what exactly you are accusing them ''of'', some hard ''evidence'', and a brief ''explanation''. Since the sole purpose of the Coop is to resolve these disputes, don't post unrelated or more generalized complaints here — if you do, your posts will be moved off the page. Any vote started within 48 hours of filing will be deleted and you will be blocked. Use {{tl|CoopNotice}} to inform the user in question, so that they have a chance to discuss their actions here. As a final note, if you think this page is a good tactic to apply in gaming the mob into doing your bidding, you may be shocked to see your post archived ''quite'' swiftly. == Ban Smith == I propose to formally ban the user known as &quot;Smith&quot; for the offenses of: # Doxing me and at least 3 other members of this site on various talk pages here and creating at least 2 libellous attack pages on editors here. # Doxing members of this site on [[Kiwi Farms]] and Reddit and elsewhere. # Attempting to bulk delete pages here in [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?oldid=2040594 connection with] a lawsuit and causing disruption in the process along with arguably shifting the legal responsibility for those pages onto the site users who voted to keep them. # Deliberately introducing defamatory material to multiple pages as part of a [http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2019/3393.html dispute] with some crank. # Using this site to carry out a flame war with [[Mikemikev]] and [[Abd]] for several years including impersonating both on several occasions. # Vandalism and trolling with &quot;throwaway&quot; accounts to disrupt site processes on numerous occasions. I'm not going to specify any evidence because the most relevant evidence is suppressed and everyone with suppression access is well aware of the situation already. Just remember voting starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Discussion === :so we are being asked to vote to ban a user few of us actually know who they are with no evidence provided? another coop another farce. [[User:AMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] ([[User talk:AMassiveGay|talk]]) 12:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yes exactly that. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::It's honestly difficult to get the details clear, since a lot was suppressed. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus That said, this discussion remains] as well as the AfD Ze has linked. It appears to be tied to the [[Mikemikev]]/[[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]] drama, the former of whom got banned from RW for... what should frankly be obvious reasons (just read his page lol). I'll be frank, I won't vote in the Smith stuff since I don't know this particular drama shitstorm surrounding those two, but as far as I'm concerned, there is not exactly a great loss to the wiki should they remain gone? -Also just to quickly clarify, this coop isn't about nobs lol-. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Not banning him would kinda send the message that doxing is ok here so my vote is settled already. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Smith's only real activity here was and is meant to further internet grudges and escalate drama. It's caused problems on more than one occasion. Not an editor we need to keep around. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 13:21, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Funny comment considering I've added the most articles of any editor to RationalWiki. Most the people criticising me instead don't add constructive content but use this wiki as a chat-room such as Saloon bar (a place I've virtually never visited).[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: I've never doxed, impersonated or defamed anyone, notice as well no evidence is ever presented for these wild allegations. Ze has engaged in a gaslighting campaign against me for some time and nothing they post about me is accurate. They link to the preliminary judgement ''Kirkegaard v Smith [2019] EWHC 3393 (QB)'' but that has nothing to do with RationalWiki. I was never sued for comments I made on this wiki so claims I have posted libel on this wiki are blatantly false. And I won the lawsuit - Kirkegaard discontinued in May and has to pay my legal fees as the losing party. The preliminary judgement concerned fact versus opinion and ruled my comments were &quot;expressions of opinion and are defamatory&quot; ''however'' the judge pointed out &quot;For the avoidance of doubt, I am not deciding the question of serious harm under s 1 of the Defamation Act 2013.&quot; (the preliminary was to determine whether my comments were fact or opinion not the question of serious harm and I won it on the basis I was arguing my comments were opinions while Kirkegaard incorrectly said they were facts and he was criticised by the judge for taking my comments out of context). Had it gone to full trial or summary judgement (I filed for) a judge would have decided if my comments were either honest opinion (my legal defence) or defamation based on the serious harm question. Kirkegaard discontinued the lawsuit shortly before the judge was going to decide this knowing he/she would almost certainly have ruled my opinions were honestly held rather than defamation. So did I defame him? No. It' s highly misleading to say I did since my comments were upheld as honest opinion which provides a legal defence to defamation (other than truth) and he discontinued the lawsuit knowing the judge in the summary judgement would have ruled my comments did not cause him serious harm. Of course, I don't expect Ze (formerly EK) or Dysk (aka D) to acknowledge this and both of them have spent the past year character assassinating me on Reddit and various wiki-related forums over this lawsuit. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} :You doxed me [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=2073359&amp;oldid=2073357&amp;unhide=1 here] and then a bunch of other times that I could find if you really want and then doxed other editors later and when your comments were suppressed you went to do the same thing on other sites including [[Kiwi Farms]] whose users still follow me around to harrass even now because of it. {{User:Ze/?}} 14:02, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Upon further consideration, I changed my mind. I hadn't quite seen the KiwiFarms shit. Let me be clear here, anyone who is on that site and thinks that posting anything to do with a member here is an A-Okay thing can honestly and directly fuck off. Smith needs as far as I am concerned no more place here. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: I've never doxed Ze - they formerly used their name initials (EK) on RationalWiki which is public knowledge. They renamed their account. They were banned from Wikipedia for trolling using their real name. How is any of this doxing if they've publicly used their real name as their account name on Wikipedia and used their initials on RationalWiki? If you go down that road and define doxing as someone who posts public information then by the same definition Ze (aka EK) has doxed me by posting my name Oliver Smith all over the place.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: LOL. If you want to ban people who post on Kiwi Farms, then ban EK/Ze - she posts there and libelled me as a pedophile on an account. It would be pretty moronic to deny this is her since the account is an SPA dedicated to attacking me and contains the same &quot;feminazi&quot; name description. EK/Ze has been using Kiwi Farms to libel me for months.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} My account initials were never connected to any name until you decided to do that, obviously it was public knowledge after you made it public knowledge which is what you must have wanted. The Zionist Feminazi account on Kiwifarms is obviously not me, and in addition to calling you a pedophile it doxes LGM, posts personal information about Dysk, claims Bongolian is your brother, and calls various peeps here SJWs which tbf is fairly standard for all the posters on that thread. It also engages in severe transphobia against dysk which seems cringe and is ngl a lot like your own very transphobic comments about dysk you made [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&amp;target=Arthur+Kerensa&amp;timestamp=20190426123447 here] which is now suppressed. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :What personal info from me was revealed? DM may be appropriate. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account on Kiwifarms is Ze who calls herself a feminazi here. Ze and Dysk claim to be siblings in real life. The &quot;Zionist Feminist&quot; account on Kiwi Farms libeled me as a pedophile and it is ''only'' Ze/Dysk that repeats the libel on that account. Ze is also involved with Mikemikev drama and note the only other thread the Feminazi account on KF posted in is Mike's. There are plenty of other evidences that account is Ze.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: On Kiwi Farms there is talk that Ze and Dysk are the same person. On his Reddit account, Dysk posted several times he is in actual fact Ze. Does anyone know what all this is about, or is it an elaborate hoax? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::It's a well known fact nothing I post on Reddit is true, I have no idea why people still take me seriously there. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::&lt;s&gt;I disagree with a ban of Smith,&lt;/s&gt; I personally don't have an opinion either way. I'd say that a stern admonishment along with a 2 way interaction ban from contacting Ze (and vice-versa) &lt;s&gt;should be sufficient in my opinion&lt;/s&gt; would be a good idea in the event that Smith is not banned. Additionally, a preemptive sysoprevoke may be in order, especially with Ze active on the site. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Kiko you are a moron, if you want to comment, make an effort to understand the situation. You want an interaction ban for someone who doxed several editors? What a joke. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::: EK/Ze doxxed my brother and if they didn't do that I wouldn't have even looked into their identity and found their Wikipedia account. My actions were retaliatory - Proof is here. View this edit: https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 (this is me confronting Ze over the dox of my brother ''before'' I posted links to their Wikipedia account with their name). [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od|7}} Glad to see that you admit to doxing Ze now mate, your denials were fucking tiresome. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:59, 16 September 2020 (UTC) : I've rebutted that below. I never posted private information about your sister - she signed up a public Wikipedia account with her name. In contrast, your sister doxxed my brother's name on Wikipedocracy and other websites when he's never publicly revealed his name online. You have a penchant for projection. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::Dysk, there is no need for personal attacks. No I don't neccessarily want an interaction ban. I only said that this would be an option if Smith is not banned, whether as a result of this coop, or otherwise. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 17:46, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ===Cultivating this many sockpuppets=== I don't know, man. Sockpuppetry is not explicitly against our rules. In fact having sock accounts has largely been condoned in the past. But I can't help but feel that this Oliver D. Smith business has taken it to a whole other level. It may be worth it to ban them simply because they're more trouble than they're worth. We don't need to embroil RationalWiki in a conflict spanning half the internet, just for the sake of a single user. The scale of this is... disturbing.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 18:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't see the point in any of these debates. Smith and Ze have been involved in an online slap-fight for over a year its on Kiwi Farms, discord, Reddit etc. It's impossible to have both these people on the same website. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I'd be inclined to support banning Smith just based on the scale of the drama they're embroiled in. All sorts of websites and sockpuppets and angry basement-dwellers plus at least one court case. It's not worth it to allow any chance of all that garbage spilling onto RW. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:07, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::If you look up the Wikipedia clusterfuck, EK (Ze) was indef b&amp; as a sockpuppet of Dysk (indef b&amp; as either a suspected troll or irredeemable PITA). I'd provide links, but I can't be arsed with accusations of doxxing. This whole thing is weird AF. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 20:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Ze was originally blocked due to a technical link between us, this was overturned (for Ze) by a Wikimedia steward, based on showing identity documents. Terms of the unblock followed the WP:CLEANSTART guidelines and the original account remains locked. However, despite this I personally remain banned from all Wikipedia projects, for trolling, and ban evasion. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::We don't need the identity documents, obviously, but a link to the ruling would be nice-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::This was largely conducted in private on Wikimedia IRC, you will have to make do with the rather limited WP:AN ruling linked to my &quot;main&quot; Wikipedia account. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}{{ping|User:Dysklyver}} Pull the other one, son. Look, you've had a good run. Let's not spoil it by going down the very silly road of my-sister-totally-started-editing-Wikipedia-a-month-before-I-got-b&amp;-and-whilst-I-was-sockpuppeteering-like-crazy. Smell tests n' all that. I invite you to resign from the board of trustees, hand back both your tech bits, and decide whether you'll use your Dysk or Ze account for voting in future. Graceful exits on gentle off ramps ftw. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 01:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :1. RationalWiki has no rule against sockpuppetry it is a moot argument, nevertheless I will point out that nothing you wrote is true. :2. I've been sockpuppeting on Wikipedia since around 2006. Although my socks are assigned to various SPI cases, the oldest one blocked as &quot;Dysk&quot; is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Adek21 this] November 2006 account. Ze did not get blocked until 2018 (12 years later) and that was a quickly resolved mishap I caused quite accidentally. :3. I never stopped Sockpuppeting on Wikipedia and still edit articles there on a regular basis, occasionally I get banned this doesn't concern me. I haven't been banned for nearly 2 months. :4. I don't intend to quit the board without having pushed certain changes outlined in my candidacy statement, this isn't negotiable. :5. It's probable that I will lose Tech over the IP-Data visibility issue. Not because I did anything wrong, but because of what I said about it. :6. This is very much off-topic to this Coop case, if you have further questions take it to my DMs or Email. :Thanks. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 11:18, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::Thanks for the link. I hadn't dug any further than A____r K_____a, but my main concern now is your use of the Dysk and Ze accounts to sustain a &quot;doxxing&quot; drama that doesn't impact your RL identity at all. I get that you might be having tons of fun fucking with people on the internet, but bollocks to you indulging that shit here. You have an off ramp. Take it, please. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 18:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :: Dysklyver is banned from other wikis for sockpuppetry. [[Conservapedia]] on his blocked account says &quot;inconclusive but convincing checkuser evidence of sockpuppetry&quot;. And since he admits to socking on Wikipedia, was blocked for doing it on Conservapedia - it's almost certain he does it on RationalWiki. But as he says it's not against the rules here - however he's someone who has attacked me across the internet for owning &quot;hundreds of accounts&quot;. Likely projection since I don't that many (my estimate is 35-40, but that's over a 8 year period), perhaps he does though. And note he's publicly discussing his Wikipedia accounts he shares on an IP with his sister here, but made a dubious claim I doxxed his sister when I merely posted her Wikipedia account. (facepalm)[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:39, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::On that note Smith, the user account that you are using, [[User:Flight]] is a sockpuppet of a banned user. Is there any reason why this account should not be blocked? If there isn't then why even bother with a vote? Why not just proceed to blocking Smith? We can then review the block afterwards, if deemed appropriate. We have enough drama on this wiki without Smith, by allowing Smith to return we are only allowing more drama to take place here. Not good, and not rational either. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:07, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Feel free to link where Smith was banned mate. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:25, 17 September 2020 (UTC) == Ban Abd == I can't remember exactly what this guy did but allegedly trolling and doxing were involved. I think he created a blog to attack various editors after that and the validity of what he wrote there is disputed. Like Smith he was unilaterally banned by a sysop on the basis of doxing without a coop vote, so in the interests of fairness we will confirm this ban too at the same time. Remember that the vote starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority to pass. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I oppose having a vote to reinstate Abd because he has not petitioned for reinstatement of rights. It's a needless drama to rehash all of his bullshit (or anyone else's who hasn't petitioned). He appears to be a death's door according to D, and partly-confirmed by his own website. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 19:48, 16 September 2020 (UTC) === Disscussion === Seems like a wise idea, poking through history, it seems his community also was responsible for raiding RW or something? Anyway, that blog of his was in the abuse filter at some point if I'm not mistaken. Unlike Smith, I do think I can be confident in saying that blocking Abd is a good idea. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I mean in terms of damage Smith did more than Abd but yes both should be banned and this is more about procedure since both have been treated as banned for a long time and had hundreds of accounts blocked for ban evasion. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:26, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Abd Lomax is a threat to RationalWiki user's privacy and was rightly banned. He threatened to sue David Gerard and RationalWiki, he posted this on his website coldfusioncommunity in 2018 (if you want I can link to this). He later dropped this idea and filed a lawsuit against Wikipedia for banning him. His lawsuit against Wikipedia was dismissed with prejudice, but Abd claimed in this lawsuit that RationalWiki had 'defamed' him. On Abd's coldfusioncommunity website there are 50 negative articles dedicated to 'researching' RationalWiki editors such as Smith and their alleged sock-puppets. ::Lomax also doxed some RationalWiki staff on his website and some of that information is still live. Fuzzycatpotato has been doxed on Abd Lomax's website his real name and house address has been exposed. Ze is a close friend of Abd Lomax, indeed Lomax wrote on Reddit a few months ago he considers ZE like a &quot;daughter&quot;. Ze also has a discord &quot;The Treehouse&quot; and she invited Abd to join it, and made him a mod there. D/Ze have been in an online slapfight with Smith for a year spilling over multiple websites. We need someone totally uninvolved with this Abd or Smith drama to solve these matters. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 18:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I've only interacted with Abd once, but he did [http://coldfusioncommunity.net/anglo-pyramidologist/darryl-l-smith/skeptic-from-britain/comment-trolling/verifier/ post briefly about me on his site] (he did not doxx me) which brought it to my notice. He does seem to post a lot about RW stuff on his webpage. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Yeah well your like me anonymous so Abd can't get you but he tries to get hold of editors real life names, then he publishes it on his website. Does fuzzy know Abd has published his personal details? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I would vote Aye to a ban of Abd, but I've not been on here long enough. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : Abd was banned on [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Some_random_Smith Some random Smith] a suckpuppet using my surname and then editing Emil Kirkegaard's article when he knew I was involved at the time in a lawsuit with Kirkegaard. So I suspect this was an impersonation. Abd is a malicious troll and [[User_talk:Some_random_Smith#Hey_FYI|David Gerard blocked the Smith account]] recognising it was Abd. Abd falsely claims (without any evidence) I impersonate people on his blog - it's psychological projection and he's describing his own sick behaviour.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I could say the same about you. Funny how you have no self awareness, when you post obviously hypocritical statements. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: The difference is I've never impersonated anyone while Abd Lomax demonstrably has or at least he has used my surname on his sockpuppets. Who am I meant to have impersonated? And why has no mod blocked me for an impersonation? They only seem to exist in your imagination. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: D has admitted to being a [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226696&amp;oldid=2226693 friend] of Lomax. Ze is also a close friend of Abd. We need neutral users on here if any discussion is to go forward. Abd has personally harassed me over email so I am against him fully. I admit I hate this evil ol man! So I am not neutral. I suggest we all stop debating this topic and wait for the voting. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Abd is a great guy, that said, I don't oppose his ban on the grounds of doxing. Same with Smith, but Smith is actually a cunt. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 11:21, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I understand that you have a personal relationship with Abd, and I have no problem with that. Abd however is a lunatic ([[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax#Pseudoscience|pseudoscience promotion]]), a pest (repeated ban evasions), and a danger (doxing). He is not 'great'. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:04, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::That's all water under the bridge now, Abd needs banning in my opinion. Smith, however needs summary banning without a vote in my opinion. He is the sockpuppet of an indefinitely blocked user by his own admission. Why are we even wasting our valuable time feeding this troll? {{DFFT}} [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:15, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ==Invalid vote: started prematurely== '''As noted at the top of the page, since this vote did not start 48 hours after the beginning of the coop, it is therefore invalid.''' [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:11, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :This shit is so tiresome already, and we have to sit through another fucking day of this? {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 01:06, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ===Derp=== * I would settle for blocking my account on a voluntary basis i.e. post this user has decided to quit. Would I show up again? No. Because this time there was actually a Coop discussion rather than the irregular procedure of banning me via discord with no consensus or discussion. I returned to this wiki to add articles because there was no proper ban, rather, it was two problematic admins (Ze and Dysk) who banned me based on dubious allegations of doxing (I've rebutted these allegations above). There is also a repeated false allegation I libelled Ze or Dysk; yet last time I looked they're the people viciously smearing me on multiple websites as a child abuser and pedophile among many other outrageous claims. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 18:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) [[File:Tobias on kiwifarms 2019.png|thumb|500px|Smith calling the RationalWiki mods and sysops &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot;]] Smith you said after you wrote banned as [[User:Tobias]] that you would never return while calling the mods and sysops here &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot; and saying a highly transphobic homophobic, and ableist [[Kiwi Farms]] thread was true (See the image). Why are you back. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I agree, I think that Ze asks a fair question. That said I will add that I'm not in favour of anything other than a simple 2 way interaction ban on both Ze and Smith. Additionally, I think that Ze should be admonished for misuse of sysop. Everyone makes mistakes, but mistakes like that should never be repeated again. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::There's no transphobia, homophobia, and ableism in any of my comments on KF or anywhere else (not that I actually care). Furthermore it's pretty stupid to use that as a guilt by association fallacy when we both know you (Ze) are the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account I was responding to in that thread who was libelling me as a pedophile. To anyone who wants to actually check that full thread to get the context rather than believe Ze's quote-mines - notice my comment in the screenshot is only responding to &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; after I was provoked. And note how the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account identically matches Ze's posts and writing style, for example take the following comment they posted on Kiwi Farms: {{quotebox|May 18, 2019 Zionist Feminazi maybe the doxing has something to do with how her name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account and the harassment has something to do with how u went onto her talk page and discord to post threats and weird shit about the things u would do unless she redacted a wikipediocracy post to not mention ur insane brother who spends his time spamming reddit?}} To those familiar with Ze aka EK's writing style will know their usage of &quot;ur&quot;. Not only that but it matches identical claims they make here such as the dubious claims of doxing and how her account &quot;name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account&quot; (we've seen that same claim made above by Ze). Add this to the fact EK calls herself as a feminazi and elsewhere has claimed to support zionism plus that user only was posting in the RationalWiki and Mikemikev thread specifically to attack me -is rather conclusive its the same person. How many other people who support zionism and call themself a feminazi with the same writing style to Ze are there? I'm not sure how much more evidence other mods here would need. The fact they are denying this is them shows how highly deceptive they are. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::The Zionist Feminazi user on Kiwifarms is a former close friend of mine, I can confirm it's not Ze. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:32, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I would vote Aye, but 1) I'm not an eligible voter and 2) I think this proposal is ill concieved and we'd be better off if we did what WMF wikis do and implement a procedure for appealing bans that does not involve sockpuppetery. The problem with this proposal is that it encourages people who are banned to evade their bans. Hence invalidating their meaning and purpose. Not good. So if I were an eligible voter, I'd vote Nay, we're better off with the status quo, which at least wouldn't create a precedent that any ban retrospectively deemed &quot;invalid&quot; may simply be disregarded without consequence. This isn't an Anarchy, or a battleground. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:50, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't even understand whey this is a vote. Abd is a certified doxer. I'm not about to give Smith the benefit of the doubt, particularly if there is confirmation that Smith is a doxer. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Either way I think that Smith has admitted to being a sockpuppet of [[User:Tobias]] who has already been indefinitely banned. So I fully agree with you, on the basis of that evidence alone, there appears to be no need for a vote. I don't see why we can't just summarily ban Smith aka Tobias aka Flight instead of bothering with a vote, which is just a waste of everyone's time. If Smith wishes to appeal the ban, and sees it as unjust, and intends to edit there are already proper channels for doing so e.g. on his talk page (if not revoked), by email (if not revoked), or by Discord. If both his talk page, and email access have been revoked, and he is banned from the Discord server, then tough shit. That's his problem, not our problem. If that's the case then we can just ban him, then Forget It, Move On. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: @ Kiko and Bongolian - my Tobias account was banned without the correct procedure. It was banned with no discussion or vote based on a dubious claim of doxing. I dispute the doxing claim because all I did is link to Ze (aka EK) Wikipedia account. That's all I ever did. I don't consider that doxing. Ze's dubious claim is it was doxing because she had not mentioned/linked her Wikipedia account on RationalWiki. Wikipedia accounts are public. Perhaps the reason Ze acted the way they did is because their Wikipedia account is perm banned for trolling and they're a notorious sockpuppeteer - there's dozens of accounts banned under their name. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Are we going to ignore you doxing Greenrd, Occam, and that you posted Ze's full name which isn't in the Wikipedia link? Get real mate, you can focus on one thing, and there are a dozen more offenses I can list. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: You're a proven liar. Ze's full name is in the Wikipedia url I posted. A mere google search of &quot;Greenrd&quot; ''reveals his full name''. How is that doxing? This stuff is public and Greenrd connects his online pseudonym to his real name on multiple sites. Same for Captain Occam who has identified himself on blogs and forums (his real name) with his pseudonym. None of this is doxxing (revealing private information), but you know that. You've made up a tun of false allegations to smear me with. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Remarkably Smith, what you wrote there is proven lies by the suppression logs already posted on this page... I guess you are full of shite. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::: That's your and EK's usual response when you're been exposed as outright lying. &quot;It's the logs!&quot; when these aren't even viewable. And lol @ doxing Greenrd when his surname is his pseudonmyn. But I guess you're going to go back to spamming Reddit with your &quot;Oliver is a malicious doxxer&quot; crap. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od|:::::::}}Thanks for your response Smith, as a result I can now be satisfied so that I am sure (i.e. beyond a reasonable doubt) that you are the sockpuppet of a banned user i.e. Smith aka Tobias. Therefore, if I were an eligible voter I would definitely voting Aye. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 17:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :On that note, I feel that this coop will be pointless if I just block Smith to enforce his desire to LANCB. I have asked him to confirm that he desires to LANCB, and that he is happy for me to indefinitely block him to enforce his desire. If he does confirm that, then I will just indefinitely block him, and ask for this coop to be archived without a vote. Are there any objections? [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 08:36, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yes, I object. Too many people have LANCBed before only to return. And since Smith is notorious for his sockpuppetry, we need a 2/3 mob decision on whether all his current and future incarnations can be summarily banished. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 09:06, 17 September 2020 (UTC) :::I also object. Users shouldn't get away with no punishment just because they ragequit. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 09:15, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ===A summary of my actions wrongly claimed to be doxxing by EK and Dysk=== * Ze's former name on RationalWiki was EK. Those are her real name initials and she has a Wikipedia account (banned) under her real name. I linked to the Wikipedia account. * Greenrd pseudonym is his surname. All I did was Google his name and you get his full name including surname on plenty of sites. The first link on Google has Greenrd, his surname and first name (I won't here post, but its public). * Captain Occam (a banned Wikipedia troll) has identified his pseudonyms (Captain Occam, Occam) with his real name on blogs and forums. So how did I dox any of these people? Nothing I linked or posted was private information. If EK wanted to be anonymous in cyberspace why use her real name initials on RationalWiki and sign up a Wikipedia account with full real name? Based on the above false allegations of doxing I was incorrectly banned on the user:Tobias.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:49, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't think you or D/Ze should continue your slapfight on this website. It's been going on over a year on other platforms. You need to put an end to it and just agree to never talk to each other again. Users should stop arguing here and just wait to vote on the bans. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The problem is the mods or other users aren't looking at the evidence, some are uncritically going along with D/Ze's total BS and lies. I've never doxxed those 3 listed people. Anyone impartial can see that if they read my simple rebuttal above. No information I've posted is private but public.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Just because Ze volunteered her real life name on one platform, doesn't justify you revealing it on another one. Revealing her name on RW is doxxing. And you continuing to point out her real world initials should be reason for immediate block for as long as it takes until we get the permaban vote concluded. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 23:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Anyone can Google these peoples usernames and get their real life name because they are publicly attached to their accounts on other websites like Greenrd so it does not match the usual definition of &quot;doxing&quot; used in law because the information is public, not private. But there is a stricter definition of the term doxing on this website where you can not divulge any name from any external website even if it is public and connect it to a pseudonym. This sort of connecting the pieces research is forbidden. My advice is to close your account here and move on. Abd is not coming back here. You should not come back either. The best way to leave is by choice. The infighting on this website can be very toxic. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Four points as a rebuttal: :::::(1) They used their real name initials on RationalWiki. :::::(2) They use their first real name on RationalWiki-related discord chats. :::::(3) Ze claims their brother is Dysk; the latter's Wikipedia account is connected to his sisters and since Dysk has mentioned his Wikipedia identity on RationalWiki it was easy to find :::::(4) Finally, I don't use the weakened definition of doxing but the strong dictionary definition which contradicts what Coigreach said. Cambridge dictionary definition: &quot;the action of finding or publishing private information about someone on the internet without their permission, especially in a way that reveals their name, address, etc.&quot; Key word: private. EK signed up her real name on Wikipedia. How is that private? It isn't - Wikipedia is a public site. What would be doxing is if someone leaked actual private information including, for example a name behind a paywall site or credit card details. Guess what? [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 The former is what EK did to my brother] on the Wikipedocracy forum which is what I confronted them about on Tobias and asked them to retract where they did this. My brother was doxxed by a troll who put his name on the internet having paid for his information behind paywall site. My brother never released his name on any public website - yet EK went around the internet doxxing him on multiple websites. I then get banned for posting Ek's name after I was confronting them about doxxing my brother. You really couldn't make it up. Had they not doxxed my brother I wouldn't have looked into their identity and found their Wikipedia account. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 My actions were retaliatory]. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:39, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::: Ze/Abd have both been doxing your family so in retaliation you found her banned Wikipedia account name. I understand but this slap-fight has been going on too long. There is bad on all sides. Nobody is innocent here. Abd was the first to dox your family. Abd has quite an influence on Ze. I think the real issue here is him and his bad influence on some from this community. I mean it was him that started this flame war between you guys. But I am bored of this now and I going to sleep. My advice is to move on. These petty online feuds are not worth the time. I seriously think you should close your account on here. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 00:00, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::: (Edit conflict) (1) Again, it wasn't known that those were her real life initials until you brought it up. ::::::(2)I hold a strong belief that what happens in Discord should have no bearing here. ::::::(3)Just because it's easy to find doesn't mean it's justifiable to reveal. Also, what Dysk reveals shouldn't make it okay to reveal extended information about his (alleged) sister. ::::::(4)This ''is'' RationalWiki. And our more strict definition of Doxxing applies as far as the blocking policy is concerned. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 00:01, 16 September 2020 (UTC) It must be wonderful to have this much free time to spend hours doing pointless shittery, trolling, doxing, revenge bitching, online stalking and year long bickering all over the internet. Must be conducive to a truly content happy soul. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:24, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :Agreed but {{DFFT}} [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 17:40, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :: Back to reality: view my [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Flight&amp;dir=prev&amp;offset=20200908214141&amp;target=Flight user contributions]. My edit history on this wiki is adding mainspace articles - and I've added between 200 and 300 since 2012. My account Flight is only 2 weeks old, but has already made 3 lengthy articles such as [[spiteful mutant hypothesis]]. The behaviour you are describing is the total ''opposite'' of mine. I've never used this wiki for drama and I've virtually never posted in the saloon bar and with few exceptions (obviously if you exclude this coop where I protest an incorrect blocking procedure and a couple of talk pages), rarely post on non-mainspace articles. I also never joined any RationalWiki group or chat. I'm a solitary individual who never even made friends here over 8 years and only used this wiki to add constructive articles. I have no idea why people think I'm involved in shit-posting or trolling. As I said view my edit history. As far as drama, stalking or revenge bitching is concerned - Ze (aka EK) followed me on Twitter months back - I blocked them and told them to fuck off. Despite the misinformation saying otherwise, I have no interest in 'bickering all over the internet'. The only place off-this wiki I briefly mentioned my ban was on KF. My total post count there is very small and I haven't posted there for well over a year.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 18:47, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Your honesty is appreciated Smith, but the fact that you've already been convicted and sentenced, but are unlawfully at large, and clearly don't see anything wrong with your prior misconduct, are all things that strongly suggest that you need indefinite banning. This doesn't even need a vote in my opinion, a straight ban would be sufficient due process for you. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 21:57, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ==Indefinite ban for D== There is now solid evidence [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User:D D] has been looking up private IP data and using this data as a personal check-user. I also believe he has been sending that information to his friend [[Abd Lomax]] a hostile critic of this website who has threatened various editors here with legal action in the past. Even if he has not sent private information to Abd, he has violated users privacy. User Flight recently revealed this comment from D on Reddit: *&quot;''I can see the IP addresses Smith used on RationalWiki due to the fact I'm a tech there. Every single IP on a Smith account that I checked going back to 2016 or so was a VPN'' and ''I can clearly see the IP addresses Smith used on his accounts don't match his public IP address he used separately without an account. Furthermore, Smith has been recently editing RationalWiki using different IP addresses''. The link can be found here [https://archive.is/RMawd]. *D [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226696&amp;oldid=2226693 admits here] Abd is his friend and admits to trolling Wikipedia talk-pages. *Also D says he takes LSD [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226693&amp;oldid=2226681]. On Reddit D says he does much of his editing when he is high. *D is indefinitely banned on Wikipedia and uncyclopedia. Whilst bans off this website have no involvement in RationalWiki it does paint a picture that this user is a troll which he confesses to. Here D admits to trolling. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&amp;diff=2226685&amp;oldid=2226683 ''&quot;I personally remain banned from all Wikipedia projects, for trolling, and ban evasion'']. *D has been in communication with Abd Lomax for over a year. I received emails from Abd telling me he has private IP data of RationalWiki accounts. Abd has threatened to sue RationalWiki users in the past. *D and Ze invited Abd to join their discord server &quot;The Treehouse&quot; and made him a mod there. There are many chats there about RationalWiki with Abd. *Abd filed a lawsuit against Wikipedia (it was thrown out with prejudice) but in that lawsuit Abd mentioned RationalWiki as 'defaming' him [https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/14573324/lomax-v-wikimedia-foundation-inc/]. D has publicly posted on Reddit and Wikipediocracy that he supports Abd's lawsuit. *Here D admits nothing he posts is true, [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&amp;diff=2226689&amp;oldid=2226686]. Is this someone we want on the board of trustees? * The abuse of tech rights is outright ban offense. This is violation of privacy. Totally unacceptable. On any other wiki, this would not even be a vote. You need an indefinite ban on this user right now. Apparently tech rights has now been fixed so IP/s can not be seen but it is way too late. Privacy has been violated here. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 21:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::I fully agree, and would happily vote Aye, however I'm not an eligible voter. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 21:54, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::I wouldn't be in favour of banning (talking to Abd on Discord, taking LSD and being banned from other projects are not bannable offences). But I will say that [https://archive.is/RMawd comments Dysk made here] are extremely damning, and a very serious breach of tech privileges. I'd support re-looking at whether Dysk should have tech rights. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 22:00, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::: The ban is over the breach of tech privileges which violates privacy. The Abd link is very suspect but I have known about that for months. His behavior in regard to the IPs is absolutely unethical and outrageous. The trustees need to take action and suspend this user. I don't see how this can even be up for debate. Pinging the other trustees {{ping|GrammarCommie}}, {{ping|LeftyGreenMario}}, {{ping|FuzzyCatPotato}}, {{ping|Tmtoulouse}}, {{ping|Spud}}. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) ::::: If D isn't permanently banned, then I fully agree with RWRW on that one. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:11, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::In my opinion banning is not necessary, but tech removal is on the table. The ''suspicion'' of this sort of thing played a major role in removing tech rights from Oxy.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 22:17, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Yep - immediate loss of tech rights followed by vote on a ban. But who gives a shit about LSD? I've edited this site under influence of many substances. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:20, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::I've donned my mod hat and removed tech rights pending discussion about said rights. I think the offense is serious enough for immediate action. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:21, 16 September 2020 (UTC) {{od|:::::::::}} Fully agreed Ace. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:27, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :As far as I'm concerned, only the tech rights abuse is actionable. I don't care who D is friends with, nor what substances he abuses. I mostly edit when drunk. In fact I'm drunk right now. And extra wiki douchebaggery should be unpunishable 99.99% of the time :That said, the tech rights abuse is serious enough to warrant major punishment. I agree with Aces decision to unilaterally strip Dysks tech rights. The same should be done to Ze, who also admitted to the abuses. Furthermore a long block is warranted, even if permaban might be a bit too much for my liking. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 22:35, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::I'm somewhat tipsy already and it's 10:36am and I am in my office with the door closed. But yes - loss of tech rights is the least we can do for now. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:37, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Some of the evidence given is besides the point, if not particularly flattering (e.g. editing on acid). The IP issue is the crux of the matter and I think it is damning. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 22:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I agree Coigreach. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:45, 16 September 2020 (UTC) : I can dig up another Reddit comment in the same thread (I need to go through 100+ comments though...); an anonymous user asked Dysk for a specific log/IP detail of a RationalWiki account, and Dysk's response was he would give it in private (by private I assume email or the private message feature on Reddit). The main person Dysk has been discussing and likely giving IP data to in that [https://archive.is/RMawd Reddit thread] is [[Emil Kirkegaard]] who posts on Reddit as Deleetdk. There is no doubt the pseudonym Deleetdk is Kirkegaard and the Deleetdk account identifies as Emil. Deleetdk appears [https://archive.is/weUzS in the thread at least once.] The allegations by Kirkegaard and Dysk I use VPNs is false. Whatever IPs Dysk was discussing and presumably leaking (if they weren't public IP edits) to Kirkegaard weren't mine but other editors, though my real IP he probably gave to Kirkegaard but I've publicly edited on it on this wiki. lol. That's how stupid their false claim I use VPNs is.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:02, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::Can confirm that Deleetdk is openly Emil Kirkegaard - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 23:18, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Someone asked me for my opinion on this? Sure, whatever, have at it. Dysk doesn't show good judgement, that's not news. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 23:40, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Yes, by all means proceed with disciplinary action against D. ::::But I'd like to make it clear at this point that it is still my considered opinion that Oliver D. Smith is a horrible person just like the vast majority of his many online enemies are horrible people too. I think his ban as Tobias was legitimate and he shouldn't be editing here using another account now. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 00:48, 17 September 2020 (UTC) Is there any evidence d and ze are different people? Several other websites say they are the same person, do they need two accounts on here? [[Special:Contributions/82.132.231.117|82.132.231.117]] ([[User talk:82.132.231.117|talk]]) 09:22, 17 September 2020 (UTC) :There is no evidence, if anyone decides to post any I will ban them. Alright? {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:23, 17 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2227346</id> <title>RationalWiki:Chicken coop</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2227346"/> <updated>2020-09-17T10:23:29Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Indefinite ban for D */ <hr /> <div>__NEWSECTIONLINK__{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}[[Category:RationalWiki]][[Category:RationalWiki moderation]][[Category:Turdblossoms]] [[Category:Shit articles]] {{hatnote|Not to be confused with the [[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation|moderator noticeboard]].}} {{talkpage |search=yes}} {{shortcut|RW:CC|RW:COOP}} &lt;!-- {{/status|}} --&gt; {{/status|3}} The '''chicken coop''' is for the avoidance, containment and resolution of cases of [[Headless Chicken Mode]] (HCM). Despite the name, this tends to be serious business. This page can be used for reporting cases of administrative abuse (abuse of [[RationalWiki:Sysop guide|sysop]] or [[RationalWiki:Moderators|moderator]] abilities such as blocking, page deletion, or user rights management), general abuse (such as [[troll]]ing, [[wandalism]], and personal attacks), and '''conflicts which cannot be solved through normal talk page discussion''' (such as long-standing edit wars or article content disputes). Please be specific and include links to any relevant discussions, page edits or logs. All editors are welcome to comment on the cases raised here, and to try to reach a consensus on any action to be taken. If no consensus can be reached, and the HCM seems to be escalating, moderators are expected to take some action. However, any serious or permanent solution, such as removal of rights or lengthy ban, requires a community vote here according to the guidelines laid out in our [[RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Voting|Community Standards]]. '''Please''' try to resolve conflicts directly through discussion on other editor's talk pages '''before''' reporting them. It's better to just talk to someone rather than try to drag their name through the mud. If the issue is not conflict resolution, but concerns RationalWiki policies, suggested changes to how things work around here, or similar matters of principle, please post '''[[RationalWiki talk:Community Standards|on the Community Standards talk page]] instead. When presenting a case here, be sure to include ''whom'' you are accusing, what exactly you are accusing them ''of'', some hard ''evidence'', and a brief ''explanation''. Since the sole purpose of the Coop is to resolve these disputes, don't post unrelated or more generalized complaints here — if you do, your posts will be moved off the page. Any vote started within 48 hours of filing will be deleted and you will be blocked. Use {{tl|CoopNotice}} to inform the user in question, so that they have a chance to discuss their actions here. As a final note, if you think this page is a good tactic to apply in gaming the mob into doing your bidding, you may be shocked to see your post archived ''quite'' swiftly. == Ban Smith == I propose to formally ban the user known as &quot;Smith&quot; for the offenses of: # Doxing me and at least 3 other members of this site on various talk pages here and creating at least 2 libellous attack pages on editors here. # Doxing members of this site on [[Kiwi Farms]] and Reddit and elsewhere. # Attempting to bulk delete pages here in [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?oldid=2040594 connection with] a lawsuit and causing disruption in the process along with arguably shifting the legal responsibility for those pages onto the site users who voted to keep them. # Deliberately introducing defamatory material to multiple pages as part of a [http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2019/3393.html dispute] with some crank. # Using this site to carry out a flame war with [[Mikemikev]] and [[Abd]] for several years including impersonating both on several occasions. # Vandalism and trolling with &quot;throwaway&quot; accounts to disrupt site processes on numerous occasions. I'm not going to specify any evidence because the most relevant evidence is suppressed and everyone with suppression access is well aware of the situation already. Just remember voting starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Discussion === :so we are being asked to vote to ban a user few of us actually know who they are with no evidence provided? another coop another farce. [[User:AMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] ([[User talk:AMassiveGay|talk]]) 12:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yes exactly that. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::It's honestly difficult to get the details clear, since a lot was suppressed. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus That said, this discussion remains] as well as the AfD Ze has linked. It appears to be tied to the [[Mikemikev]]/[[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]] drama, the former of whom got banned from RW for... what should frankly be obvious reasons (just read his page lol). I'll be frank, I won't vote in the Smith stuff since I don't know this particular drama shitstorm surrounding those two, but as far as I'm concerned, there is not exactly a great loss to the wiki should they remain gone? -Also just to quickly clarify, this coop isn't about nobs lol-. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Not banning him would kinda send the message that doxing is ok here so my vote is settled already. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Smith's only real activity here was and is meant to further internet grudges and escalate drama. It's caused problems on more than one occasion. Not an editor we need to keep around. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 13:21, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Funny comment considering I've added the most articles of any editor to RationalWiki. Most the people criticising me instead don't add constructive content but use this wiki as a chat-room such as Saloon bar (a place I've virtually never visited).[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: I've never doxed, impersonated or defamed anyone, notice as well no evidence is ever presented for these wild allegations. Ze has engaged in a gaslighting campaign against me for some time and nothing they post about me is accurate. They link to the preliminary judgement ''Kirkegaard v Smith [2019] EWHC 3393 (QB)'' but that has nothing to do with RationalWiki. I was never sued for comments I made on this wiki so claims I have posted libel on this wiki are blatantly false. And I won the lawsuit - Kirkegaard discontinued in May and has to pay my legal fees as the losing party. The preliminary judgement concerned fact versus opinion and ruled my comments were &quot;expressions of opinion and are defamatory&quot; ''however'' the judge pointed out &quot;For the avoidance of doubt, I am not deciding the question of serious harm under s 1 of the Defamation Act 2013.&quot; (the preliminary was to determine whether my comments were fact or opinion not the question of serious harm and I won it on the basis I was arguing my comments were opinions while Kirkegaard incorrectly said they were facts and he was criticised by the judge for taking my comments out of context). Had it gone to full trial or summary judgement (I filed for) a judge would have decided if my comments were either honest opinion (my legal defence) or defamation based on the serious harm question. Kirkegaard discontinued the lawsuit shortly before the judge was going to decide this knowing he/she would almost certainly have ruled my opinions were honestly held rather than defamation. So did I defame him? No. It' s highly misleading to say I did since my comments were upheld as honest opinion which provides a legal defence to defamation (other than truth) and he discontinued the lawsuit knowing the judge in the summary judgement would have ruled my comments did not cause him serious harm. Of course, I don't expect Ze (formerly EK) or Dysk (aka D) to acknowledge this and both of them have spent the past year character assassinating me on Reddit and various wiki-related forums over this lawsuit. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} :You doxed me [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=2073359&amp;oldid=2073357&amp;unhide=1 here] and then a bunch of other times that I could find if you really want and then doxed other editors later and when your comments were suppressed you went to do the same thing on other sites including [[Kiwi Farms]] whose users still follow me around to harrass even now because of it. {{User:Ze/?}} 14:02, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Upon further consideration, I changed my mind. I hadn't quite seen the KiwiFarms shit. Let me be clear here, anyone who is on that site and thinks that posting anything to do with a member here is an A-Okay thing can honestly and directly fuck off. Smith needs as far as I am concerned no more place here. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: I've never doxed Ze - they formerly used their name initials (EK) on RationalWiki which is public knowledge. They renamed their account. They were banned from Wikipedia for trolling using their real name. How is any of this doxing if they've publicly used their real name as their account name on Wikipedia and used their initials on RationalWiki? If you go down that road and define doxing as someone who posts public information then by the same definition Ze (aka EK) has doxed me by posting my name Oliver Smith all over the place.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: LOL. If you want to ban people who post on Kiwi Farms, then ban EK/Ze - she posts there and libelled me as a pedophile on an account. It would be pretty moronic to deny this is her since the account is an SPA dedicated to attacking me and contains the same &quot;feminazi&quot; name description. EK/Ze has been using Kiwi Farms to libel me for months.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} My account initials were never connected to any name until you decided to do that, obviously it was public knowledge after you made it public knowledge which is what you must have wanted. The Zionist Feminazi account on Kiwifarms is obviously not me, and in addition to calling you a pedophile it doxes LGM, posts personal information about Dysk, claims Bongolian is your brother, and calls various peeps here SJWs which tbf is fairly standard for all the posters on that thread. It also engages in severe transphobia against dysk which seems cringe and is ngl a lot like your own very transphobic comments about dysk you made [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&amp;target=Arthur+Kerensa&amp;timestamp=20190426123447 here] which is now suppressed. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :What personal info from me was revealed? DM may be appropriate. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account on Kiwifarms is Ze who calls herself a feminazi here. Ze and Dysk claim to be siblings in real life. The &quot;Zionist Feminist&quot; account on Kiwi Farms libeled me as a pedophile and it is ''only'' Ze/Dysk that repeats the libel on that account. Ze is also involved with Mikemikev drama and note the only other thread the Feminazi account on KF posted in is Mike's. There are plenty of other evidences that account is Ze.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: On Kiwi Farms there is talk that Ze and Dysk are the same person. On his Reddit account, Dysk posted several times he is in actual fact Ze. Does anyone know what all this is about, or is it an elaborate hoax? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::It's a well known fact nothing I post on Reddit is true, I have no idea why people still take me seriously there. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::&lt;s&gt;I disagree with a ban of Smith,&lt;/s&gt; I personally don't have an opinion either way. I'd say that a stern admonishment along with a 2 way interaction ban from contacting Ze (and vice-versa) &lt;s&gt;should be sufficient in my opinion&lt;/s&gt; would be a good idea in the event that Smith is not banned. Additionally, a preemptive sysoprevoke may be in order, especially with Ze active on the site. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Kiko you are a moron, if you want to comment, make an effort to understand the situation. You want an interaction ban for someone who doxed several editors? What a joke. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::: EK/Ze doxxed my brother and if they didn't do that I wouldn't have even looked into their identity and found their Wikipedia account. My actions were retaliatory - Proof is here. View this edit: https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 (this is me confronting Ze over the dox of my brother ''before'' I posted links to their Wikipedia account with their name). [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od|7}} Glad to see that you admit to doxing Ze now mate, your denials were fucking tiresome. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:59, 16 September 2020 (UTC) : I've rebutted that below. I never posted private information about your sister - she signed up a public Wikipedia account with her name. In contrast, your sister doxxed my brother's name on Wikipedocracy and other websites when he's never publicly revealed his name online. You have a penchant for projection. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::Dysk, there is no need for personal attacks. No I don't neccessarily want an interaction ban. I only said that this would be an option if Smith is not banned, whether as a result of this coop, or otherwise. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 17:46, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ===Cultivating this many sockpuppets=== I don't know, man. Sockpuppetry is not explicitly against our rules. In fact having sock accounts has largely been condoned in the past. But I can't help but feel that this Oliver D. Smith business has taken it to a whole other level. It may be worth it to ban them simply because they're more trouble than they're worth. We don't need to embroil RationalWiki in a conflict spanning half the internet, just for the sake of a single user. The scale of this is... disturbing.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 18:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't see the point in any of these debates. Smith and Ze have been involved in an online slap-fight for over a year its on Kiwi Farms, discord, Reddit etc. It's impossible to have both these people on the same website. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I'd be inclined to support banning Smith just based on the scale of the drama they're embroiled in. All sorts of websites and sockpuppets and angry basement-dwellers plus at least one court case. It's not worth it to allow any chance of all that garbage spilling onto RW. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:07, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::If you look up the Wikipedia clusterfuck, EK (Ze) was indef b&amp; as a sockpuppet of Dysk (indef b&amp; as either a suspected troll or irredeemable PITA). I'd provide links, but I can't be arsed with accusations of doxxing. This whole thing is weird AF. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 20:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Ze was originally blocked due to a technical link between us, this was overturned (for Ze) by a Wikimedia steward, based on showing identity documents. Terms of the unblock followed the WP:CLEANSTART guidelines and the original account remains locked. However, despite this I personally remain banned from all Wikipedia projects, for trolling, and ban evasion. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::We don't need the identity documents, obviously, but a link to the ruling would be nice-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::This was largely conducted in private on Wikimedia IRC, you will have to make do with the rather limited WP:AN ruling linked to my &quot;main&quot; Wikipedia account. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}{{ping|User:Dysklyver}} Pull the other one, son. Look, you've had a good run. Let's not spoil it by going down the very silly road of my-sister-totally-started-editing-Wikipedia-a-month-before-I-got-b&amp;-and-whilst-I-was-sockpuppeteering-like-crazy. Smell tests n' all that. I invite you to resign from the board of trustees, hand back both your tech bits, and decide whether you'll use your Dysk or Ze account for voting in future. Graceful exits on gentle off ramps ftw. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 01:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :1. RationalWiki has no rule against sockpuppetry it is a moot argument, nevertheless I will point out that nothing you wrote is true. :2. I've been sockpuppeting on Wikipedia since around 2006. Although my socks are assigned to various SPI cases, the oldest one blocked as &quot;Dysk&quot; is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Adek21 this] November 2006 account. Ze did not get blocked until 2018 (12 years later) and that was a quickly resolved mishap I caused quite accidentally. :3. I never stopped Sockpuppeting on Wikipedia and still edit articles there on a regular basis, occasionally I get banned this doesn't concern me. I haven't been banned for nearly 2 months. :4. I don't intend to quit the board without having pushed certain changes outlined in my candidacy statement, this isn't negotiable. :5. It's probable that I will lose Tech over the IP-Data visibility issue. Not because I did anything wrong, but because of what I said about it. :6. This is very much off-topic to this Coop case, if you have further questions take it to my DMs or Email. :Thanks. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 11:18, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::Thanks for the link. I hadn't dug any further than A____r K_____a, but my main concern now is your use of the Dysk and Ze accounts to sustain a &quot;doxxing&quot; drama that doesn't impact your RL identity at all. I get that you might be having tons of fun fucking with people on the internet, but bollocks to you indulging that shit here. You have an off ramp. Take it, please. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 18:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :: Dysklyver is banned from other wikis for sockpuppetry. [[Conservapedia]] on his blocked account says &quot;inconclusive but convincing checkuser evidence of sockpuppetry&quot;. And since he admits to socking on Wikipedia, was blocked for doing it on Conservapedia - it's almost certain he does it on RationalWiki. But as he says it's not against the rules here - however he's someone who has attacked me across the internet for owning &quot;hundreds of accounts&quot;. Likely projection since I don't that many (my estimate is 35-40, but that's over a 8 year period), perhaps he does though. And note he's publicly discussing his Wikipedia accounts he shares on an IP with his sister here, but made a dubious claim I doxxed his sister when I merely posted her Wikipedia account. (facepalm)[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:39, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::On that note Smith, the user account that you are using, [[User:Flight]] is a sockpuppet of a banned user. Is there any reason why this account should not be blocked? If there isn't then why even bother with a vote? Why not just proceed to blocking Smith? We can then review the block afterwards, if deemed appropriate. We have enough drama on this wiki without Smith, by allowing Smith to return we are only allowing more drama to take place here. Not good, and not rational either. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:07, 16 September 2020 (UTC) == Ban Abd == I can't remember exactly what this guy did but allegedly trolling and doxing were involved. I think he created a blog to attack various editors after that and the validity of what he wrote there is disputed. Like Smith he was unilaterally banned by a sysop on the basis of doxing without a coop vote, so in the interests of fairness we will confirm this ban too at the same time. Remember that the vote starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority to pass. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I oppose having a vote to reinstate Abd because he has not petitioned for reinstatement of rights. It's a needless drama to rehash all of his bullshit (or anyone else's who hasn't petitioned). He appears to be a death's door according to D, and partly-confirmed by his own website. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 19:48, 16 September 2020 (UTC) === Disscussion === Seems like a wise idea, poking through history, it seems his community also was responsible for raiding RW or something? Anyway, that blog of his was in the abuse filter at some point if I'm not mistaken. Unlike Smith, I do think I can be confident in saying that blocking Abd is a good idea. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I mean in terms of damage Smith did more than Abd but yes both should be banned and this is more about procedure since both have been treated as banned for a long time and had hundreds of accounts blocked for ban evasion. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:26, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Abd Lomax is a threat to RationalWiki user's privacy and was rightly banned. He threatened to sue David Gerard and RationalWiki, he posted this on his website coldfusioncommunity in 2018 (if you want I can link to this). He later dropped this idea and filed a lawsuit against Wikipedia for banning him. His lawsuit against Wikipedia was dismissed with prejudice, but Abd claimed in this lawsuit that RationalWiki had 'defamed' him. On Abd's coldfusioncommunity website there are 50 negative articles dedicated to 'researching' RationalWiki editors such as Smith and their alleged sock-puppets. ::Lomax also doxed some RationalWiki staff on his website and some of that information is still live. Fuzzycatpotato has been doxed on Abd Lomax's website his real name and house address has been exposed. Ze is a close friend of Abd Lomax, indeed Lomax wrote on Reddit a few months ago he considers ZE like a &quot;daughter&quot;. Ze also has a discord &quot;The Treehouse&quot; and she invited Abd to join it, and made him a mod there. D/Ze have been in an online slapfight with Smith for a year spilling over multiple websites. We need someone totally uninvolved with this Abd or Smith drama to solve these matters. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 18:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I've only interacted with Abd once, but he did [http://coldfusioncommunity.net/anglo-pyramidologist/darryl-l-smith/skeptic-from-britain/comment-trolling/verifier/ post briefly about me on his site] (he did not doxx me) which brought it to my notice. He does seem to post a lot about RW stuff on his webpage. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Yeah well your like me anonymous so Abd can't get you but he tries to get hold of editors real life names, then he publishes it on his website. Does fuzzy know Abd has published his personal details? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I would vote Aye to a ban of Abd, but I've not been on here long enough. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : Abd was banned on [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Some_random_Smith Some random Smith] a suckpuppet using my surname and then editing Emil Kirkegaard's article when he knew I was involved at the time in a lawsuit with Kirkegaard. So I suspect this was an impersonation. Abd is a malicious troll and [[User_talk:Some_random_Smith#Hey_FYI|David Gerard blocked the Smith account]] recognising it was Abd. Abd falsely claims (without any evidence) I impersonate people on his blog - it's psychological projection and he's describing his own sick behaviour.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I could say the same about you. Funny how you have no self awareness, when you post obviously hypocritical statements. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: The difference is I've never impersonated anyone while Abd Lomax demonstrably has or at least he has used my surname on his sockpuppets. Who am I meant to have impersonated? And why has no mod blocked me for an impersonation? They only seem to exist in your imagination. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: D has admitted to being a [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226696&amp;oldid=2226693 friend] of Lomax. Ze is also a close friend of Abd. We need neutral users on here if any discussion is to go forward. Abd has personally harassed me over email so I am against him fully. I admit I hate this evil ol man! So I am not neutral. I suggest we all stop debating this topic and wait for the voting. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Abd is a great guy, that said, I don't oppose his ban on the grounds of doxing. Same with Smith, but Smith is actually a cunt. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 11:21, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I understand that you have a personal relationship with Abd, and I have no problem with that. Abd however is a lunatic ([[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax#Pseudoscience|pseudoscience promotion]]), a pest (repeated ban evasions), and a danger (doxing). He is not 'great'. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:04, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::That's all water under the bridge now, Abd needs banning in my opinion. Smith, however needs summary banning without a vote in my opinion. He is the sockpuppet of an indefinitely blocked user by his own admission. Why are we even wasting our valuable time feeding this troll? {{DFFT}} [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:15, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ==Invalid vote: started prematurely== '''As noted at the top of the page, since this vote did not start 48 hours after the beginning of the coop, it is therefore invalid.''' [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:11, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :This shit is so tiresome already, and we have to sit through another fucking day of this? {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 01:06, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ===Derp=== * I would settle for blocking my account on a voluntary basis i.e. post this user has decided to quit. Would I show up again? No. Because this time there was actually a Coop discussion rather than the irregular procedure of banning me via discord with no consensus or discussion. I returned to this wiki to add articles because there was no proper ban, rather, it was two problematic admins (Ze and Dysk) who banned me based on dubious allegations of doxing (I've rebutted these allegations above). There is also a repeated false allegation I libelled Ze or Dysk; yet last time I looked they're the people viciously smearing me on multiple websites as a child abuser and pedophile among many other outrageous claims. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 18:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) [[File:Tobias on kiwifarms 2019.png|thumb|500px|Smith calling the RationalWiki mods and sysops &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot;]] Smith you said after you wrote banned as [[User:Tobias]] that you would never return while calling the mods and sysops here &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot; and saying a highly transphobic homophobic, and ableist [[Kiwi Farms]] thread was true (See the image). Why are you back. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I agree, I think that Ze asks a fair question. That said I will add that I'm not in favour of anything other than a simple 2 way interaction ban on both Ze and Smith. Additionally, I think that Ze should be admonished for misuse of sysop. Everyone makes mistakes, but mistakes like that should never be repeated again. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::There's no transphobia, homophobia, and ableism in any of my comments on KF or anywhere else (not that I actually care). Furthermore it's pretty stupid to use that as a guilt by association fallacy when we both know you (Ze) are the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account I was responding to in that thread who was libelling me as a pedophile. To anyone who wants to actually check that full thread to get the context rather than believe Ze's quote-mines - notice my comment in the screenshot is only responding to &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; after I was provoked. And note how the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account identically matches Ze's posts and writing style, for example take the following comment they posted on Kiwi Farms: {{quotebox|May 18, 2019 Zionist Feminazi maybe the doxing has something to do with how her name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account and the harassment has something to do with how u went onto her talk page and discord to post threats and weird shit about the things u would do unless she redacted a wikipediocracy post to not mention ur insane brother who spends his time spamming reddit?}} To those familiar with Ze aka EK's writing style will know their usage of &quot;ur&quot;. Not only that but it matches identical claims they make here such as the dubious claims of doxing and how her account &quot;name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account&quot; (we've seen that same claim made above by Ze). Add this to the fact EK calls herself as a feminazi and elsewhere has claimed to support zionism plus that user only was posting in the RationalWiki and Mikemikev thread specifically to attack me -is rather conclusive its the same person. How many other people who support zionism and call themself a feminazi with the same writing style to Ze are there? I'm not sure how much more evidence other mods here would need. The fact they are denying this is them shows how highly deceptive they are. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::The Zionist Feminazi user on Kiwifarms is a former close friend of mine, I can confirm it's not Ze. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:32, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I would vote Aye, but 1) I'm not an eligible voter and 2) I think this proposal is ill concieved and we'd be better off if we did what WMF wikis do and implement a procedure for appealing bans that does not involve sockpuppetery. The problem with this proposal is that it encourages people who are banned to evade their bans. Hence invalidating their meaning and purpose. Not good. So if I were an eligible voter, I'd vote Nay, we're better off with the status quo, which at least wouldn't create a precedent that any ban retrospectively deemed &quot;invalid&quot; may simply be disregarded without consequence. This isn't an Anarchy, or a battleground. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:50, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't even understand whey this is a vote. Abd is a certified doxer. I'm not about to give Smith the benefit of the doubt, particularly if there is confirmation that Smith is a doxer. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Either way I think that Smith has admitted to being a sockpuppet of [[User:Tobias]] who has already been indefinitely banned. So I fully agree with you, on the basis of that evidence alone, there appears to be no need for a vote. I don't see why we can't just summarily ban Smith aka Tobias aka Flight instead of bothering with a vote, which is just a waste of everyone's time. If Smith wishes to appeal the ban, and sees it as unjust, and intends to edit there are already proper channels for doing so e.g. on his talk page (if not revoked), by email (if not revoked), or by Discord. If both his talk page, and email access have been revoked, and he is banned from the Discord server, then tough shit. That's his problem, not our problem. If that's the case then we can just ban him, then Forget It, Move On. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: @ Kiko and Bongolian - my Tobias account was banned without the correct procedure. It was banned with no discussion or vote based on a dubious claim of doxing. I dispute the doxing claim because all I did is link to Ze (aka EK) Wikipedia account. That's all I ever did. I don't consider that doxing. Ze's dubious claim is it was doxing because she had not mentioned/linked her Wikipedia account on RationalWiki. Wikipedia accounts are public. Perhaps the reason Ze acted the way they did is because their Wikipedia account is perm banned for trolling and they're a notorious sockpuppeteer - there's dozens of accounts banned under their name. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Are we going to ignore you doxing Greenrd, Occam, and that you posted Ze's full name which isn't in the Wikipedia link? Get real mate, you can focus on one thing, and there are a dozen more offenses I can list. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: You're a proven liar. Ze's full name is in the Wikipedia url I posted. A mere google search of &quot;Greenrd&quot; ''reveals his full name''. How is that doxing? This stuff is public and Greenrd connects his online pseudonym to his real name on multiple sites. Same for Captain Occam who has identified himself on blogs and forums (his real name) with his pseudonym. None of this is doxxing (revealing private information), but you know that. You've made up a tun of false allegations to smear me with. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Remarkably Smith, what you wrote there is proven lies by the suppression logs already posted on this page... I guess you are full of shite. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::: That's your and EK's usual response when you're been exposed as outright lying. &quot;It's the logs!&quot; when these aren't even viewable. And lol @ doxing Greenrd when his surname is his pseudonmyn. But I guess you're going to go back to spamming Reddit with your &quot;Oliver is a malicious doxxer&quot; crap. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od|:::::::}}Thanks for your response Smith, as a result I can now be satisfied so that I am sure (i.e. beyond a reasonable doubt) that you are the sockpuppet of a banned user i.e. Smith aka Tobias. Therefore, if I were an eligible voter I would definitely voting Aye. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 17:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :On that note, I feel that this coop will be pointless if I just block Smith to enforce his desire to LANCB. I have asked him to confirm that he desires to LANCB, and that he is happy for me to indefinitely block him to enforce his desire. If he does confirm that, then I will just indefinitely block him, and ask for this coop to be archived without a vote. Are there any objections? [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 08:36, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yes, I object. Too many people have LANCBed before only to return. And since Smith is notorious for his sockpuppetry, we need a 2/3 mob decision on whether all his current and future incarnations can be summarily banished. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 09:06, 17 September 2020 (UTC) :::I also object. Users shouldn't get away with no punishment just because they ragequit. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 09:15, 17 September 2020 (UTC) ===A summary of my actions wrongly claimed to be doxxing by EK and Dysk=== * Ze's former name on RationalWiki was EK. Those are her real name initials and she has a Wikipedia account (banned) under her real name. I linked to the Wikipedia account. * Greenrd pseudonym is his surname. All I did was Google his name and you get his full name including surname on plenty of sites. The first link on Google has Greenrd, his surname and first name (I won't here post, but its public). * Captain Occam (a banned Wikipedia troll) has identified his pseudonyms (Captain Occam, Occam) with his real name on blogs and forums. So how did I dox any of these people? Nothing I linked or posted was private information. If EK wanted to be anonymous in cyberspace why use her real name initials on RationalWiki and sign up a Wikipedia account with full real name? Based on the above false allegations of doxing I was incorrectly banned on the user:Tobias.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:49, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't think you or D/Ze should continue your slapfight on this website. It's been going on over a year on other platforms. You need to put an end to it and just agree to never talk to each other again. Users should stop arguing here and just wait to vote on the bans. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The problem is the mods or other users aren't looking at the evidence, some are uncritically going along with D/Ze's total BS and lies. I've never doxxed those 3 listed people. Anyone impartial can see that if they read my simple rebuttal above. No information I've posted is private but public.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Just because Ze volunteered her real life name on one platform, doesn't justify you revealing it on another one. Revealing her name on RW is doxxing. And you continuing to point out her real world initials should be reason for immediate block for as long as it takes until we get the permaban vote concluded. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 23:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Anyone can Google these peoples usernames and get their real life name because they are publicly attached to their accounts on other websites like Greenrd so it does not match the usual definition of &quot;doxing&quot; used in law because the information is public, not private. But there is a stricter definition of the term doxing on this website where you can not divulge any name from any external website even if it is public and connect it to a pseudonym. This sort of connecting the pieces research is forbidden. My advice is to close your account here and move on. Abd is not coming back here. You should not come back either. The best way to leave is by choice. The infighting on this website can be very toxic. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Four points as a rebuttal: :::::(1) They used their real name initials on RationalWiki. :::::(2) They use their first real name on RationalWiki-related discord chats. :::::(3) Ze claims their brother is Dysk; the latter's Wikipedia account is connected to his sisters and since Dysk has mentioned his Wikipedia identity on RationalWiki it was easy to find :::::(4) Finally, I don't use the weakened definition of doxing but the strong dictionary definition which contradicts what Coigreach said. Cambridge dictionary definition: &quot;the action of finding or publishing private information about someone on the internet without their permission, especially in a way that reveals their name, address, etc.&quot; Key word: private. EK signed up her real name on Wikipedia. How is that private? It isn't - Wikipedia is a public site. What would be doxing is if someone leaked actual private information including, for example a name behind a paywall site or credit card details. Guess what? [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 The former is what EK did to my brother] on the Wikipedocracy forum which is what I confronted them about on Tobias and asked them to retract where they did this. My brother was doxxed by a troll who put his name on the internet having paid for his information behind paywall site. My brother never released his name on any public website - yet EK went around the internet doxxing him on multiple websites. I then get banned for posting Ek's name after I was confronting them about doxxing my brother. You really couldn't make it up. Had they not doxxed my brother I wouldn't have looked into their identity and found their Wikipedia account. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 My actions were retaliatory]. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:39, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::: Ze/Abd have both been doxing your family so in retaliation you found her banned Wikipedia account name. I understand but this slap-fight has been going on too long. There is bad on all sides. Nobody is innocent here. Abd was the first to dox your family. Abd has quite an influence on Ze. I think the real issue here is him and his bad influence on some from this community. I mean it was him that started this flame war between you guys. But I am bored of this now and I going to sleep. My advice is to move on. These petty online feuds are not worth the time. I seriously think you should close your account on here. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 00:00, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::: (Edit conflict) (1) Again, it wasn't known that those were her real life initials until you brought it up. ::::::(2)I hold a strong belief that what happens in Discord should have no bearing here. ::::::(3)Just because it's easy to find doesn't mean it's justifiable to reveal. Also, what Dysk reveals shouldn't make it okay to reveal extended information about his (alleged) sister. ::::::(4)This ''is'' RationalWiki. And our more strict definition of Doxxing applies as far as the blocking policy is concerned. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 00:01, 16 September 2020 (UTC) It must be wonderful to have this much free time to spend hours doing pointless shittery, trolling, doxing, revenge bitching, online stalking and year long bickering all over the internet. Must be conducive to a truly content happy soul. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:24, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :Agreed but {{DFFT}} [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 17:40, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :: Back to reality: view my [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Flight&amp;dir=prev&amp;offset=20200908214141&amp;target=Flight user contributions]. My edit history on this wiki is adding mainspace articles - and I've added between 200 and 300 since 2012. My account Flight is only 2 weeks old, but has already made 3 lengthy articles such as [[spiteful mutant hypothesis]]. The behaviour you are describing is the total ''opposite'' of mine. I've never used this wiki for drama and I've virtually never posted in the saloon bar and with few exceptions (obviously if you exclude this coop where I protest an incorrect blocking procedure and a couple of talk pages), rarely post on non-mainspace articles. I also never joined any RationalWiki group or chat. I'm a solitary individual who never even made friends here over 8 years and only used this wiki to add constructive articles. I have no idea why people think I'm involved in shit-posting or trolling. As I said view my edit history. As far as drama, stalking or revenge bitching is concerned - Ze (aka EK) followed me on Twitter months back - I blocked them and told them to fuck off. Despite the misinformation saying otherwise, I have no interest in 'bickering all over the internet'. The only place off-this wiki I briefly mentioned my ban was on KF. My total post count there is very small and I haven't posted there for well over a year.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 18:47, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Your honesty is appreciated Smith, but the fact that you've already been convicted and sentenced, but are unlawfully at large, and clearly don't see anything wrong with your prior misconduct, are all things that strongly suggest that you need indefinite banning. This doesn't even need a vote in my opinion, a straight ban would be sufficient due process for you. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 21:57, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ==Indefinite ban for D== There is now solid evidence [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User:D D] has been looking up private IP data and using this data as a personal check-user. I also believe he has been sending that information to his friend [[Abd Lomax]] a hostile critic of this website who has threatened various editors here with legal action in the past. Even if he has not sent private information to Abd, he has violated users privacy. User Flight recently revealed this comment from D on Reddit: *&quot;''I can see the IP addresses Smith used on RationalWiki due to the fact I'm a tech there. Every single IP on a Smith account that I checked going back to 2016 or so was a VPN'' and ''I can clearly see the IP addresses Smith used on his accounts don't match his public IP address he used separately without an account. Furthermore, Smith has been recently editing RationalWiki using different IP addresses''. The link can be found here [https://archive.is/RMawd]. *D [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226696&amp;oldid=2226693 admits here] Abd is his friend and admits to trolling Wikipedia talk-pages. *Also D says he takes LSD [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226693&amp;oldid=2226681]. On Reddit D says he does much of his editing when he is high. *D is indefinitely banned on Wikipedia and uncyclopedia. Whilst bans off this website have no involvement in RationalWiki it does paint a picture that this user is a troll which he confesses to. Here D admits to trolling. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&amp;diff=2226685&amp;oldid=2226683 ''&quot;I personally remain banned from all Wikipedia projects, for trolling, and ban evasion'']. *D has been in communication with Abd Lomax for over a year. I received emails from Abd telling me he has private IP data of RationalWiki accounts. Abd has threatened to sue RationalWiki users in the past. *D and Ze invited Abd to join their discord server &quot;The Treehouse&quot; and made him a mod there. There are many chats there about RationalWiki with Abd. *Abd filed a lawsuit against Wikipedia (it was thrown out with prejudice) but in that lawsuit Abd mentioned RationalWiki as 'defaming' him [https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/14573324/lomax-v-wikimedia-foundation-inc/]. D has publicly posted on Reddit and Wikipediocracy that he supports Abd's lawsuit. *Here D admits nothing he posts is true, [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&amp;diff=2226689&amp;oldid=2226686]. Is this someone we want on the board of trustees? * The abuse of tech rights is outright ban offense. This is violation of privacy. Totally unacceptable. On any other wiki, this would not even be a vote. You need an indefinite ban on this user right now. Apparently tech rights has now been fixed so IP/s can not be seen but it is way too late. Privacy has been violated here. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 21:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::I fully agree, and would happily vote Aye, however I'm not an eligible voter. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 21:54, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::I wouldn't be in favour of banning (talking to Abd on Discord, taking LSD and being banned from other projects are not bannable offences). But I will say that [https://archive.is/RMawd comments Dysk made here] are extremely damning, and a very serious breach of tech privileges. I'd support re-looking at whether Dysk should have tech rights. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 22:00, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::: The ban is over the breach of tech privileges which violates privacy. The Abd link is very suspect but I have known about that for months. His behavior in regard to the IPs is absolutely unethical and outrageous. The trustees need to take action and suspend this user. I don't see how this can even be up for debate. Pinging the other trustees {{ping|GrammarCommie}}, {{ping|LeftyGreenMario}}, {{ping|FuzzyCatPotato}}, {{ping|Tmtoulouse}}, {{ping|Spud}}. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) ::::: If D isn't permanently banned, then I fully agree with RWRW on that one. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:11, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::In my opinion banning is not necessary, but tech removal is on the table. The ''suspicion'' of this sort of thing played a major role in removing tech rights from Oxy.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 22:17, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Yep - immediate loss of tech rights followed by vote on a ban. But who gives a shit about LSD? I've edited this site under influence of many substances. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:20, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::I've donned my mod hat and removed tech rights pending discussion about said rights. I think the offense is serious enough for immediate action. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:21, 16 September 2020 (UTC) {{od|:::::::::}} Fully agreed Ace. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:27, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :As far as I'm concerned, only the tech rights abuse is actionable. I don't care who D is friends with, nor what substances he abuses. I mostly edit when drunk. In fact I'm drunk right now. And extra wiki douchebaggery should be unpunishable 99.99% of the time :That said, the tech rights abuse is serious enough to warrant major punishment. I agree with Aces decision to unilaterally strip Dysks tech rights. The same should be done to Ze, who also admitted to the abuses. Furthermore a long block is warranted, even if permaban might be a bit too much for my liking. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 22:35, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::I'm somewhat tipsy already and it's 10:36am and I am in my office with the door closed. But yes - loss of tech rights is the least we can do for now. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:37, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Some of the evidence given is besides the point, if not particularly flattering (e.g. editing on acid). The IP issue is the crux of the matter and I think it is damning. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 22:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I agree Coigreach. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 22:45, 16 September 2020 (UTC) : I can dig up another Reddit comment in the same thread (I need to go through 100+ comments though...); an anonymous user asked Dysk for a specific log/IP detail of a RationalWiki account, and Dysk's response was he would give it in private (by private I assume email or the private message feature on Reddit). The main person Dysk has been discussing and likely giving IP data to in that [https://archive.is/RMawd Reddit thread] is [[Emil Kirkegaard]] who posts on Reddit as Deleetdk. There is no doubt the pseudonym Deleetdk is Kirkegaard and the Deleetdk account identifies as Emil. Deleetdk appears [https://archive.is/weUzS in the thread at least once.] The allegations by Kirkegaard and Dysk I use VPNs is false. Whatever IPs Dysk was discussing and presumably leaking (if they weren't public IP edits) to Kirkegaard weren't mine but other editors, though my real IP he probably gave to Kirkegaard but I've publicly edited on it on this wiki. lol. That's how stupid their false claim I use VPNs is.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:02, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::Can confirm that Deleetdk is openly Emil Kirkegaard - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 23:18, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::Someone asked me for my opinion on this? Sure, whatever, have at it. Dysk doesn't show good judgement, that's not news. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 23:40, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Yes, by all means proceed with disciplinary action against D. ::::But I'd like to make it clear at this point that it is still my considered opinion that Oliver D. Smith is a horrible person just like the vast majority of his many online enemies are horrible people too. I think his ban as Tobias was legitimate and he shouldn't be editing here using another account now. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 00:48, 17 September 2020 (UTC) Is there any evidence d and ze are different people? Several other websites say they are the same person, do they need two accounts on here? [[Special:Contributions/82.132.231.117|82.132.231.117]] ([[User talk:82.132.231.117|talk]]) 09:22, 17 September 2020 (UTC) :There is no evidence, if anyone decides to post any I will ban them. Alright? {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:23, 17 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Asela&diff=2226903</id> <title>User talk:Asela</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Asela&diff=2226903"/> <updated>2020-09-16T11:59:50Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* AbuseFilter */ <hr /> <div>{{welcome}}&lt;span style=&quot;color:#20C050;&quot;&gt;[[User:Yisfidri|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#20C050;&quot;&gt;Yisfidri&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:Yisfidri|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#20C050;&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/span&gt;]])&lt;/span&gt; 11:30, 26 November 2019 (UTC) :Takk. Just waiting until I can upload a penguin picture. Nice website overall tho [[User:Penguinsfunnylolhaha|Penguinsfunnylolhaha]] ([[User talk:Penguinsfunnylolhaha|talk]]) 12:32, 26 November 2019 (UTC) == Autopatrolled == {{rit}} &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 12:41, 26 November 2019 (UTC) :Very nice thank you [[User:Penguinsfunnylolhaha|Penguinsfunnylolhaha]] ([[User talk:Penguinsfunnylolhaha|talk]]) 12:42, 26 November 2019 (UTC) ::No problem, you're clearly not a troll so have at it. I'd make you a sysop but you've only been here a couple of hours lol. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 12:44, 26 November 2019 (UTC) == Wizard == {{rit|1}} &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 12:49, 26 November 2019 (UTC) :WHOA thanks I was honestly gonna shuffle off after I did the userbox but now I might stay and write some more about drugs and shit thank you [[User:Penguinsfunnylolhaha|Penguinsfunnylolhaha]] ([[User talk:Penguinsfunnylolhaha|talk]]) 12:55, 26 November 2019 (UTC) == Penguin photo == Here's a penguin for you. Have fun here.[[User:Summa Atheologica|Summa Atheologica]] ([[User talk:Summa Atheologica|talk]]) 22:56, 5 December 2019 (UTC) [[File:Emperor Penguin Manchot empereur.jpg|300px|thumb|right|The Emperor himself.]] ::Thank you that’s the good shit {{User:Penguinsfunnylolhaha/sig}} 12:03, 6 December 2019 (UTC) == unasked for opinion == I don't want to put you off asking for advice in the saloon bar or sounding out problems there, its a good place to do it, but I think you probably know yourself, that live blogging your relationship woes probably isn't the healthiest thing to do. talk to friend if possible and talk to your partner is the advice I can give. again, feel to sound off in saloon bar if need be, but just saying. [[User:AMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] ([[User talk:AMassiveGay|talk]]) 10:18, 22 January 2020 (UTC) :Very late but thank you. I realised it was the Wrong Thing pretty quickly and I’ve been talking to my friends and former partner pretty consistently to get a handle on it. Not to blame it entirely on intoxication, but violating my Golden Rule of “don’t get drunk after a breakup” definitely didn’t help either. I’m all good now and thank you for the advice. {{User:Penguinsfunnylolhaha/sig}} 13:39, 6 February 2020 (UTC) ==The collapse thing== The collapse template works fine; you just need to use initial caps, e.g. &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{Collapse}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:50, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :Ah nice thanks so like &lt;nowiki&gt;{{Collapse|Title of the collapse box}} Various content {{Collapse end}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;? Thanks a bunch {{User:Penguinsfunnylolhaha/sig}} 07:03, 16 September 2020 (UTC) == AbuseFilter == No, you never procced it, so nobody has your IP. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 08:21, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :Ah thank fuck. Thanks for letting me know. Gonna use a VPN just until I know this issue has been sorted but I’m glad everything’s okay so far. {{User:Penguinsfunnylolhaha/sig}} 08:30, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ::The edit filter doesn't trip on established accounts, realistically these concerns only affect very new users. That said, a VPN is of course a wise choice for privacy reasons, which is why I use one. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 11:59, 16 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2226901</id> <title>RationalWiki:Chicken coop</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2226901"/> <updated>2020-09-16T11:22:38Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Disscussion */ <hr /> <div>__NEWSECTIONLINK__{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}[[Category:RationalWiki]][[Category:RationalWiki moderation]][[Category:Turdblossoms]] [[Category:Shit articles]] {{hatnote|Not to be confused with the [[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation|moderator noticeboard]].}} {{talkpage |search=yes}} {{shortcut|RW:CC|RW:COOP}} &lt;!-- {{/status|}} --&gt; {{/status|4}} The '''chicken coop''' is for the avoidance, containment and resolution of cases of [[Headless Chicken Mode]] (HCM). Despite the name, this tends to be serious business. This page can be used for reporting cases of administrative abuse (abuse of [[RationalWiki:Sysop guide|sysop]] or [[RationalWiki:Moderators|moderator]] abilities such as blocking, page deletion, or user rights management), general abuse (such as [[troll]]ing, [[wandalism]], and personal attacks), and '''conflicts which cannot be solved through normal talk page discussion''' (such as long-standing edit wars or article content disputes). Please be specific and include links to any relevant discussions, page edits or logs. All editors are welcome to comment on the cases raised here, and to try to reach a consensus on any action to be taken. If no consensus can be reached, and the HCM seems to be escalating, moderators are expected to take some action. However, any serious or permanent solution, such as removal of rights or lengthy ban, requires a community vote here according to the guidelines laid out in our [[RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Voting|Community Standards]]. '''Please''' try to resolve conflicts directly through discussion on other editor's talk pages '''before''' reporting them. It's better to just talk to someone rather than try to drag their name through the mud. If the issue is not conflict resolution, but concerns RationalWiki policies, suggested changes to how things work around here, or similar matters of principle, please post '''[[RationalWiki talk:Community Standards|on the Community Standards talk page]] instead. When presenting a case here, be sure to include ''whom'' you are accusing, what exactly you are accusing them ''of'', some hard ''evidence'', and a brief ''explanation''. Since the sole purpose of the Coop is to resolve these disputes, don't post unrelated or more generalized complaints here — if you do, your posts will be moved off the page. Any vote started within 48 hours of filing will be deleted and you will be blocked. Use {{tl|CoopNotice}} to inform the user in question, so that they have a chance to discuss their actions here. As a final note, if you think this page is a good tactic to apply in gaming the mob into doing your bidding, you may be shocked to see your post archived ''quite'' swiftly. == Ban Smith == I propose to formally ban the user known as &quot;Smith&quot; for the offenses of: # Doxing me and at least 3 other members of this site on various talk pages here and creating at least 2 libellous attack pages on editors here. # Doxing members of this site on [[Kiwi Farms]] and Reddit and elsewhere. # Attempting to bulk delete pages here in [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?oldid=2040594 connection with] a lawsuit and causing disruption in the process along with arguably shifting the legal responsibility for those pages onto the site users who voted to keep them. # Deliberately introducing defamatory material to multiple pages as part of a [http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2019/3393.html dispute] with some crank. # Using this site to carry out a flame war with [[Mikemikev]] and [[Abd]] for several years including impersonating both on several occasions. # Vandalism and trolling with &quot;throwaway&quot; accounts to disrupt site processes on numerous occasions. I'm not going to specify any evidence because the most relevant evidence is suppressed and everyone with suppression access is well aware of the situation already. Just remember voting starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Discussion === :so we are being asked to vote to ban a user few of us actually know who they are with no evidence provided? another coop another farce. [[User:AMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] ([[User talk:AMassiveGay|talk]]) 12:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yes exactly that. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::It's honestly difficult to get the details clear, since a lot was suppressed. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus That said, this discussion remains] as well as the AfD Ze has linked. It appears to be tied to the [[Mikemikev]]/[[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]] drama, the former of whom got banned from RW for... what should frankly be obvious reasons (just read his page lol). I'll be frank, I won't vote in the Smith stuff since I don't know this particular drama shitstorm surrounding those two, but as far as I'm concerned, there is not exactly a great loss to the wiki should they remain gone? -Also just to quickly clarify, this coop isn't about nobs lol-. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Not banning him would kinda send the message that doxing is ok here so my vote is settled already. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Smith's only real activity here was and is meant to further internet grudges and escalate drama. It's caused problems on more than one occasion. Not an editor we need to keep around. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 13:21, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Funny comment considering I've added the most articles of any editor to RationalWiki. Most the people criticising me instead don't add constructive content but use this wiki as a chat-room such as Saloon bar (a place I've virtually never visited).[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: I've never doxed, impersonated or defamed anyone, notice as well no evidence is ever presented for these wild allegations. Ze has engaged in a gaslighting campaign against me for some time and nothing they post about me is accurate. They link to the preliminary judgement ''Kirkegaard v Smith [2019] EWHC 3393 (QB)'' but that has nothing to do with RationalWiki. I was never sued for comments I made on this wiki so claims I have posted libel on this wiki are blatantly false. And I won the lawsuit - Kirkegaard discontinued in May and has to pay my legal fees as the losing party. The preliminary judgement concerned fact versus opinion and ruled my comments were &quot;expressions of opinion and are defamatory&quot; ''however'' the judge pointed out &quot;For the avoidance of doubt, I am not deciding the question of serious harm under s 1 of the Defamation Act 2013.&quot; (the preliminary was to determine whether my comments were fact or opinion not the question of serious harm and I won it on the basis I was arguing my comments were opinions while Kirkegaard incorrectly said they were facts and he was criticised by the judge for taking my comments out of context). Had it gone to full trial or summary judgement (I filed for) a judge would have decided if my comments were either honest opinion (my legal defence) or defamation based on the serious harm question. Kirkegaard discontinued the lawsuit shortly before the judge was going to decide this knowing he/she would almost certainly have ruled my opinions were honestly held rather than defamation. So did I defame him? No. It' s highly misleading to say I did since my comments were upheld as honest opinion which provides a legal defence to defamation (other than truth) and he discontinued the lawsuit knowing the judge in the summary judgement would have ruled my comments did not cause him serious harm. Of course, I don't expect Ze (formerly EK) or Dysk (aka D) to acknowledge this and both of them have spent the past year character assassinating me on Reddit and various wiki-related forums over this lawsuit. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} :You doxed me [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=2073359&amp;oldid=2073357&amp;unhide=1 here] and then a bunch of other times that I could find if you really want and then doxed other editors later and when your comments were suppressed you went to do the same thing on other sites including [[Kiwi Farms]] whose users still follow me around to harrass even now because of it. {{User:Ze/?}} 14:02, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Upon further consideration, I changed my mind. I hadn't quite seen the KiwiFarms shit. Let me be clear here, anyone who is on that site and thinks that posting anything to do with a member here is an A-Okay thing can honestly and directly fuck off. Smith needs as far as I am concerned no more place here. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: I've never doxed Ze - they formerly used their name initials (EK) on RationalWiki which is public knowledge. They renamed their account. They were banned from Wikipedia for trolling using their real name. How is any of this doxing if they've publicly used their real name as their account name on Wikipedia and used their initials on RationalWiki? If you go down that road and define doxing as someone who posts public information then by the same definition Ze (aka EK) has doxed me by posting my name Oliver Smith all over the place.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: LOL. If you want to ban people who post on Kiwi Farms, then ban EK/Ze - she posts there and libelled me as a pedophile on an account. It would be pretty moronic to deny this is her since the account is an SPA dedicated to attacking me and contains the same &quot;feminazi&quot; name description. EK/Ze has been using Kiwi Farms to libel me for months.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} My account initials were never connected to any name until you decided to do that, obviously it was public knowledge after you made it public knowledge which is what you must have wanted. The Zionist Feminazi account on Kiwifarms is obviously not me, and in addition to calling you a pedophile it doxes LGM, posts personal information about Dysk, claims Bongolian is your brother, and calls various peeps here SJWs which tbf is fairly standard for all the posters on that thread. It also engages in severe transphobia against dysk which seems cringe and is ngl a lot like your own very transphobic comments about dysk you made [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&amp;target=Arthur+Kerensa&amp;timestamp=20190426123447 here] which is now suppressed. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :What personal info from me was revealed? DM may be appropriate. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account on Kiwifarms is Ze who calls herself a feminazi here. Ze and Dysk claim to be siblings in real life. The &quot;Zionist Feminist&quot; account on Kiwi Farms libeled me as a pedophile and it is ''only'' Ze/Dysk that repeats the libel on that account. Ze is also involved with Mikemikev drama and note the only other thread the Feminazi account on KF posted in is Mike's. There are plenty of other evidences that account is Ze.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: On Kiwi Farms there is talk that Ze and Dysk are the same person. On his Reddit account, Dysk posted several times he is in actual fact Ze. Does anyone know what all this is about, or is it an elaborate hoax? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::It's a well known fact nothing I post on Reddit is true, I have no idea why people still take me seriously there. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::&lt;s&gt;I disagree with a ban of Smith,&lt;/s&gt; I personally don't have an opinion either way. I'd say that a stern admonishment along with a 2 way interaction ban from contacting Ze (and vice-versa) &lt;s&gt;should be sufficient in my opinion&lt;/s&gt; would be a good idea in the event that Smith is not banned. Additionally, a preemptive sysoprevoke may be in order, especially with Ze active on the site. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Kiko you are a moron, if you want to comment, make an effort to understand the situation. You want an interaction ban for someone who doxed several editors? What a joke. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::: EK/Ze doxxed my brother and if they didn't do that I wouldn't have even looked into their identity and found their Wikipedia account. My actions were retaliatory - Proof is here. View this edit: https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 (this is me confronting Ze over the dox of my brother ''before'' I posted links to their Wikipedia account with their name). [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od|7}} Glad to see that you admit to doxing Ze now mate, your denials were fucking tiresome. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:59, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ===Cultivating this many sockpuppets=== I don't know, man. Sockpuppetry is not explicitly against our rules. In fact having sock accounts has largely been condoned in the past. But I can't help but feel that this Oliver D. Smith business has taken it to a whole other level. It may be worth it to ban them simply because they're more trouble than they're worth. We don't need to embroil RationalWiki in a conflict spanning half the internet, just for the sake of a single user. The scale of this is... disturbing.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 18:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't see the point in any of these debates. Smith and Ze have been involved in an online slap-fight for over a year its on Kiwi Farms, discord, Reddit etc. It's impossible to have both these people on the same website. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I'd be inclined to support banning Smith just based on the scale of the drama they're embroiled in. All sorts of websites and sockpuppets and angry basement-dwellers plus at least one court case. It's not worth it to allow any chance of all that garbage spilling onto RW. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:07, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::If you look up the Wikipedia clusterfuck, EK (Ze) was indef b&amp; as a sockpuppet of Dysk (indef b&amp; as either a suspected troll or irredeemable PITA). I'd provide links, but I can't be arsed with accusations of doxxing. This whole thing is weird AF. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 20:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Ze was originally blocked due to a technical link between us, this was overturned (for Ze) by a Wikimedia steward, based on showing identity documents. Terms of the unblock followed the WP:CLEANSTART guidelines and the original account remains locked. However, despite this I personally remain banned from all Wikipedia projects, for trolling, and ban evasion. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::We don't need the identity documents, obviously, but a link to the ruling would be nice-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::This was largely conducted in private on Wikimedia IRC, you will have to make do with the rather limited WP:AN ruling linked to my &quot;main&quot; Wikipedia account. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}{{ping|User:Dysklyver}} Pull the other one, son. Look, you've had a good run. Let's not spoil it by going down the very silly road of my-sister-totally-started-editing-Wikipedia-a-month-before-I-got-b&amp;-and-whilst-I-was-sockpuppeteering-like-crazy. Smell tests n' all that. I invite you to resign from the board of trustees, hand back both your tech bits, and decide whether you'll use your Dysk or Ze account for voting in future. Graceful exits on gentle off ramps ftw. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 01:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :1. RationalWiki has no rule against sockpuppetry it is a moot argument, nevertheless I will point out that nothing you wrote is true. :2. I've been sockpuppeting on Wikipedia since around 2006. Although my socks are assigned to various SPI cases, the oldest one blocked as &quot;Dysk&quot; is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Adek21 this] November 2006 account. Ze did not get blocked until 2018 (12 years later) and that was a quickly resolved mishap I caused quite accidentally. :3. I never stopped Sockpuppeting on Wikipedia and still edit articles there on a regular basis, occasionally I get banned this doesn't concern me. I haven't been banned for nearly 2 months. :4. I don't intend to quit the board without having pushed certain changes outlined in my candidacy statement, this isn't negotiable. :5. It's probable that I will lose Tech over the IP-Data visibility issue. Not because I did anything wrong, but because of what I said about it. :6. This is very much off-topic to this Coop case, if you have further questions take it to my DMs or Email. :Thanks. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 11:18, 16 September 2020 (UTC) == Ban Abd == I can't remember exactly what this guy did but allegedly trolling and doxing were involved. I think he created a blog to attack various editors after that and the validity of what he wrote there is disputed. Like Smith he was unilaterally banned by a sysop on the basis of doxing without a coop vote, so in the interests of fairness we will confirm this ban too at the same time. Remember that the vote starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority to pass. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Disscussion === Seems like a wise idea, poking through history, it seems his community also was responsible for raiding RW or something? Anyway, that blog of his was in the abuse filter at some point if I'm not mistaken. Unlike Smith, I do think I can be confident in saying that blocking Abd is a good idea. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I mean in terms of damage Smith did more than Abd but yes both should be banned and this is more about procedure since both have been treated as banned for a long time and had hundreds of accounts blocked for ban evasion. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:26, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Abd Lomax is a threat to RationalWiki user's privacy and was rightly banned. He threatened to sue David Gerard and RationalWiki, he posted this on his website coldfusioncommunity in 2018 (if you want I can link to this). He later dropped this idea and filed a lawsuit against Wikipedia for banning him. His lawsuit against Wikipedia was dismissed with prejudice, but Abd claimed in this lawsuit that RationalWiki had 'defamed' him. On Abd's coldfusioncommunity website there are 50 negative articles dedicated to 'researching' RationalWiki editors such as Smith and their alleged sock-puppets. ::Lomax also doxed some RationalWiki staff on his website and some of that information is still live. Fuzzycatpotato has been doxed on Abd Lomax's website his real name and house address has been exposed. Ze is a close friend of Abd Lomax, indeed Lomax wrote on Reddit a few months ago he considers ZE like a &quot;daughter&quot;. Ze also has a discord &quot;The Treehouse&quot; and she invited Abd to join it, and made him a mod there. D/Ze have been in an online slapfight with Smith for a year spilling over multiple websites. We need someone totally uninvolved with this Abd or Smith drama to solve these matters. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 18:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I've only interacted with Abd once, but he did [http://coldfusioncommunity.net/anglo-pyramidologist/darryl-l-smith/skeptic-from-britain/comment-trolling/verifier/ post briefly about me on his site] (he did not doxx me) which brought it to my notice. He does seem to post a lot about RW stuff on his webpage. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Yeah well your like me anonymous so Abd can't get you but he tries to get hold of editors real life names, then he publishes it on his website. Does fuzzy know Abd has published his personal details? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I would vote Aye to a ban of Abd, but I've not been on here long enough. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : Abd was banned on [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Some_random_Smith Some random Smith] a suckpuppet using my surname and then editing Emil Kirkegaard's article when he knew I was involved at the time in a lawsuit with Kirkegaard. So I suspect this was an impersonation. Abd is a malicious troll and [[User_talk:Some_random_Smith#Hey_FYI|David Gerard blocked the Smith account]] recognising it was Abd. Abd falsely claims (without any evidence) I impersonate people on his blog - it's psychological projection and he's describing his own sick behaviour.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I could say the same about you. Funny how you have no self awareness, when you post obviously hypocritical statements. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: The difference is I've never impersonated anyone while Abd Lomax demonstrably has or at least he has used my surname on his sockpuppets. Who am I meant to have impersonated? And why has no mod blocked me for an impersonation? They only seem to exist in your imagination. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: D has admitted to being a [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226696&amp;oldid=2226693 friend] of Lomax. Ze is also a close friend of Abd. We need neutral users on here if any discussion is to go forward. Abd has personally harassed me over email so I am against him fully. I admit I hate this evil ol man! So I am not neutral. I suggest we all stop debating this topic and wait for the voting. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Abd is a great guy, that said, I don't oppose his ban on the grounds of doxing. Same with Smith, but Smith is actually a cunt. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 11:21, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ==Vote to only rehash coops for contentious or irregular old bans...if the users actually come back and contest or try to make edits== ===For=== #[[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # Smith last edited today, Abd alleged edited last a few weeks ago, both users have been constantly active for many years in spite of their bans, and both users are currently and always have contested their bans, but yes absolutely this is a good idea in general. {{User:Ze/?}} 13:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) #[[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|&lt;sup&gt;&quot;Life is short and (insert adjective)&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 15:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 15:53, 15 September 2020 (UTC) #Ban evasion is automatically cause for ban anyway.{{User:Summa Atheologica/sig}} 18:25, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Against=== * I've never doxxed anyone so shouldn't be banned based on a false allegation. See my rebuttal below. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:12, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Derp=== * I would settle for blocking my account on a voluntary basis i.e. post this user has decided to quit. Would I show up again? No. Because this time there was actually a Coop discussion rather than the irregular procedure of banning me via discord with no consensus or discussion. I returned to this wiki to add articles because there was no proper ban, rather, it was two problematic admins (Ze and Dysk) who banned me based on dubious allegations of doxing (I've rebutted these allegations above). There is also a repeated false allegation I libelled Ze or Dysk; yet last time I looked they're the people viciously smearing me on multiple websites as a child abuser and pedophile among many other outrageous claims. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 18:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) [[File:Tobias on kiwifarms 2019.png|thumb|500px|Smith calling the RationalWiki mods and sysops &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot;]] Smith you said after you wrote banned as [[User:Tobias]] that you would never return while calling the mods and sysops here &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot; and saying a highly transphobic homophobic, and ableist [[Kiwi Farms]] thread was true (See the image). Why are you back. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I agree, I think that Ze asks a fair question. That said I will add that I'm not in favour of anything other than a simple 2 way interaction ban on both Ze and Smith. Additionally, I think that Ze should be admonished for misuse of sysop. Everyone makes mistakes, but mistakes like that should never be repeated again. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::There's no transphobia, homophobia, and ableism in any of my comments on KF or anywhere else (not that I actually care). Furthermore it's pretty stupid to use that as a guilt by association fallacy when we both know you (Ze) are the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account I was responding to in that thread who was libelling me as a pedophile. To anyone who wants to actually check that full thread to get the context rather than believe Ze's quote-mines - notice my comment in the screenshot is only responding to &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; after I was provoked. And note how the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account identically matches Ze's posts and writing style, for example take the following comment they posted on Kiwi Farms: {{quotebox|May 18, 2019 Zionist Feminazi maybe the doxing has something to do with how her name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account and the harassment has something to do with how u went onto her talk page and discord to post threats and weird shit about the things u would do unless she redacted a wikipediocracy post to not mention ur insane brother who spends his time spamming reddit?}} To those familiar with Ze aka EK's writing style will know their usage of &quot;ur&quot;. Not only that but it matches identical claims they make here such as the dubious claims of doxing and how her account &quot;name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account&quot; (we've seen that same claim made above by Ze). Add this to the fact EK calls herself as a feminazi and elsewhere has claimed to support zionism plus that user only was posting in the RationalWiki and Mikemikev thread specifically to attack me -is rather conclusive its the same person. How many other people who support zionism and call themself a feminazi with the same writing style to Ze are there? I'm not sure how much more evidence other mods here would need. The fact they are denying this is them shows how highly deceptive they are. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::The Zionist Feminazi user on Kiwifarms is a former close friend of mine, I can confirm it's not Ze. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:32, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I would vote Aye, but 1) I'm not an eligible voter and 2) I think this proposal is ill concieved and we'd be better off if we did what WMF wikis do and implement a procedure for appealing bans that does not involve sockpuppetery. The problem with this proposal is that it encourages people who are banned to evade their bans. Hence invalidating their meaning and purpose. Not good. So if I were an eligible voter, I'd vote Nay, we're better off with the status quo, which at least wouldn't create a precedent that any ban retrospectively deemed &quot;invalid&quot; may simply be disregarded without consequence. This isn't an Anarchy, or a battleground. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:50, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't even understand whey this is a vote. Abd is a certified doxer. I'm not about to give Smith the benefit of the doubt, particularly if there is confirmation that Smith is a doxer. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Either way I think that Smith has admitted to being a sockpuppet of [[User:Tobias]] who has already been indefinitely banned. So I fully agree with you, on the basis of that evidence alone, there appears to be no need for a vote. I don't see why we can't just summarily ban Smith aka Tobias aka Flight instead of bothering with a vote, which is just a waste of everyone's time. If Smith wishes to appeal the ban, and sees it as unjust, and intends to edit there are already proper channels for doing so e.g. on his talk page (if not revoked), by email (if not revoked), or by Discord. If both his talk page, and email access have been revoked, and he is banned from the Discord server, then tough shit. That's his problem, not our problem. If that's the case then we can just ban him, then Forget It, Move On. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: @ Kiko and Bongolian - my Tobias account was banned without the correct procedure. It was banned with no discussion or vote based on a dubious claim of doxing. I dispute the doxing claim because all I did is link to Ze (aka EK) Wikipedia account. That's all I ever did. I don't consider that doxing. Ze's dubious claim is it was doxing because she had not mentioned/linked her Wikipedia account on RationalWiki. Wikipedia accounts are public. Perhaps the reason Ze acted the way they did is because their Wikipedia account is perm banned for trolling and they're a notorious sockpuppeteer - there's dozens of accounts banned under their name. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Are we going to ignore you doxing Greenrd, Occam, and that you posted Ze's full name which isn't in the Wikipedia link? Get real mate, you can focus on one thing, and there are a dozen more offenses I can list. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: You're a proven liar. Ze's full name is in the Wikipedia url I posted. A mere google search of &quot;Greenrd&quot; ''reveals his full name''. How is that doxing? This stuff is public and Greenrd connects his online pseudonym to his real name on multiple sites. Same for Captain Occam who has identified himself on blogs and forums (his real name) with his pseudonym. None of this is doxxing (revealing private information), but you know that. You've made up a tun of false allegations to smear me with. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Remarkably Smith, what you wrote there is proven lies by the suppression logs already posted on this page... I guess you are full of shite. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::: That's your and EK's usual response when you're been exposed as outright lying. &quot;It's the logs!&quot; when these aren't even viewable. And lol @ doxing Greenrd when his surname is his pseudonmyn. But I guess you're going to go back to spamming Reddit with your &quot;Oliver is a malicious doxxer&quot; crap. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===A summary of my actions wrongly claimed to be doxxing by EK and Dysk=== * Ze's former name on RationalWiki was EK. Those are her real name initials and she has a Wikipedia account (banned) under her real name. I linked to the Wikipedia account. * Greenrd pseudonym is his surname. All I did was Google his name and you get his full name including surname on plenty of sites. The first link on Google has Greenrd, his surname and first name (I won't here post, but its public). * Captain Occam (a banned Wikipedia troll) has identified his pseudonyms (Captain Occam, Occam) with his real name on blogs and forums. So how did I dox any of these people? Nothing I linked or posted was private information. If EK wanted to be anonymous in cyberspace why use her real name initials on RationalWiki and sign up a Wikipedia account with full real name? Based on the above false allegations of doxing I was incorrectly banned on the user:Tobias.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:49, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't think you or D/Ze should continue your slapfight on this website. It's been going on over a year on other platforms. You need to put an end to it and just agree to never talk to each other again. Users should stop arguing here and just wait to vote on the bans. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The problem is the mods or other users aren't looking at the evidence, some are uncritically going along with D/Ze's total BS and lies. I've never doxxed those 3 listed people. Anyone impartial can see that if they read my simple rebuttal above. No information I've posted is private but public.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Just because Ze volunteered her real life name on one platform, doesn't justify you revealing it on another one. Revealing her name on RW is doxxing. And you continuing to point out her real world initials should be reason for immediate block for as long as it takes until we get the permaban vote concluded. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 23:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Anyone can Google these peoples usernames and get their real life name because they are publicly attached to their accounts on other websites like Greenrd so it does not match the usual definition of &quot;doxing&quot; used in law because the information is public, not private. But there is a stricter definition of the term doxing on this website where you can not divulge any name from any external website even if it is public and connect it to a pseudonym. This sort of connecting the pieces research is forbidden. My advice is to close your account here and move on. Abd is not coming back here. You should not come back either. The best way to leave is by choice. The infighting on this website can be very toxic. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Four points as a rebuttal: :::::(1) They used their real name initials on RationalWiki. :::::(2) They use their first real name on RationalWiki-related discord chats. :::::(3) Ze claims their brother is Dysk; the latter's Wikipedia account is connected to his sisters and since Dysk has mentioned his Wikipedia identity on RationalWiki it was easy to find :::::(4) Finally, I don't use the weakened definition of doxing but the strong dictionary definition which contradicts what Coigreach said. Cambridge dictionary definition: &quot;the action of finding or publishing private information about someone on the internet without their permission, especially in a way that reveals their name, address, etc.&quot; Key word: private. EK signed up her real name on Wikipedia. How is that private? It isn't - Wikipedia is a public site. What would be doxing is if someone leaked actual private information including, for example a name behind a paywall site or credit card details. Guess what? [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 The former is what EK did to my brother] on the Wikipedocracy forum which is what I confronted them about on Tobias and asked them to retract where they did this. My brother was doxxed by a troll who put his name on the internet having paid for his information behind paywall site. My brother never released his name on any public website - yet EK went around the internet doxxing him on multiple websites. I then get banned for posting Ek's name after I was confronting them about doxxing my brother. You really couldn't make it up. Had they not doxxed my brother I wouldn't have looked into their identity and found their Wikipedia account. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 My actions were retaliatory]. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:39, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::: Ze/Abd have both been doxing your family so in retaliation you found her banned Wikipedia account name. I understand but this slap-fight has been going on too long. There is bad on all sides. Nobody is innocent here. Abd was the first to dox your family. Abd has quite an influence on Ze. I think the real issue here is him and his bad influence on some from this community. I mean it was him that started this flame war between you guys. But I am bored of this now and I going to sleep. My advice is to move on. These petty online feuds are not worth the time. I seriously think you should close your account on here. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 00:00, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::: (Edit conflict) (1) Again, it wasn't known that those were her real life initials until you brought it up. ::::::(2)I hold a strong belief that what happens in Discord should have no bearing here. ::::::(3)Just because it's easy to find doesn't mean it's justifiable to reveal. Also, what Dysk reveals shouldn't make it okay to reveal extended information about his (alleged) sister. ::::::(4)This ''is'' RationalWiki. And our more strict definition of Doxxing applies as far as the blocking policy is concerned. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 00:01, 16 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2226899</id> <title>RationalWiki:Chicken coop</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2226899"/> <updated>2020-09-16T11:18:27Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Cultivating this many sockpuppets */ <hr /> <div>__NEWSECTIONLINK__{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}[[Category:RationalWiki]][[Category:RationalWiki moderation]][[Category:Turdblossoms]] [[Category:Shit articles]] {{hatnote|Not to be confused with the [[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation|moderator noticeboard]].}} {{talkpage |search=yes}} {{shortcut|RW:CC|RW:COOP}} &lt;!-- {{/status|}} --&gt; {{/status|4}} The '''chicken coop''' is for the avoidance, containment and resolution of cases of [[Headless Chicken Mode]] (HCM). Despite the name, this tends to be serious business. This page can be used for reporting cases of administrative abuse (abuse of [[RationalWiki:Sysop guide|sysop]] or [[RationalWiki:Moderators|moderator]] abilities such as blocking, page deletion, or user rights management), general abuse (such as [[troll]]ing, [[wandalism]], and personal attacks), and '''conflicts which cannot be solved through normal talk page discussion''' (such as long-standing edit wars or article content disputes). Please be specific and include links to any relevant discussions, page edits or logs. All editors are welcome to comment on the cases raised here, and to try to reach a consensus on any action to be taken. If no consensus can be reached, and the HCM seems to be escalating, moderators are expected to take some action. However, any serious or permanent solution, such as removal of rights or lengthy ban, requires a community vote here according to the guidelines laid out in our [[RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Voting|Community Standards]]. '''Please''' try to resolve conflicts directly through discussion on other editor's talk pages '''before''' reporting them. It's better to just talk to someone rather than try to drag their name through the mud. If the issue is not conflict resolution, but concerns RationalWiki policies, suggested changes to how things work around here, or similar matters of principle, please post '''[[RationalWiki talk:Community Standards|on the Community Standards talk page]] instead. When presenting a case here, be sure to include ''whom'' you are accusing, what exactly you are accusing them ''of'', some hard ''evidence'', and a brief ''explanation''. Since the sole purpose of the Coop is to resolve these disputes, don't post unrelated or more generalized complaints here — if you do, your posts will be moved off the page. Any vote started within 48 hours of filing will be deleted and you will be blocked. Use {{tl|CoopNotice}} to inform the user in question, so that they have a chance to discuss their actions here. As a final note, if you think this page is a good tactic to apply in gaming the mob into doing your bidding, you may be shocked to see your post archived ''quite'' swiftly. == Ban Smith == I propose to formally ban the user known as &quot;Smith&quot; for the offenses of: # Doxing me and at least 3 other members of this site on various talk pages here and creating at least 2 libellous attack pages on editors here. # Doxing members of this site on [[Kiwi Farms]] and Reddit and elsewhere. # Attempting to bulk delete pages here in [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?oldid=2040594 connection with] a lawsuit and causing disruption in the process along with arguably shifting the legal responsibility for those pages onto the site users who voted to keep them. # Deliberately introducing defamatory material to multiple pages as part of a [http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2019/3393.html dispute] with some crank. # Using this site to carry out a flame war with [[Mikemikev]] and [[Abd]] for several years including impersonating both on several occasions. # Vandalism and trolling with &quot;throwaway&quot; accounts to disrupt site processes on numerous occasions. I'm not going to specify any evidence because the most relevant evidence is suppressed and everyone with suppression access is well aware of the situation already. Just remember voting starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Discussion === :so we are being asked to vote to ban a user few of us actually know who they are with no evidence provided? another coop another farce. [[User:AMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] ([[User talk:AMassiveGay|talk]]) 12:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yes exactly that. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::It's honestly difficult to get the details clear, since a lot was suppressed. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus That said, this discussion remains] as well as the AfD Ze has linked. It appears to be tied to the [[Mikemikev]]/[[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]] drama, the former of whom got banned from RW for... what should frankly be obvious reasons (just read his page lol). I'll be frank, I won't vote in the Smith stuff since I don't know this particular drama shitstorm surrounding those two, but as far as I'm concerned, there is not exactly a great loss to the wiki should they remain gone? -Also just to quickly clarify, this coop isn't about nobs lol-. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Not banning him would kinda send the message that doxing is ok here so my vote is settled already. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Smith's only real activity here was and is meant to further internet grudges and escalate drama. It's caused problems on more than one occasion. Not an editor we need to keep around. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 13:21, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Funny comment considering I've added the most articles of any editor to RationalWiki. Most the people criticising me instead don't add constructive content but use this wiki as a chat-room such as Saloon bar (a place I've virtually never visited).[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: I've never doxed, impersonated or defamed anyone, notice as well no evidence is ever presented for these wild allegations. Ze has engaged in a gaslighting campaign against me for some time and nothing they post about me is accurate. They link to the preliminary judgement ''Kirkegaard v Smith [2019] EWHC 3393 (QB)'' but that has nothing to do with RationalWiki. I was never sued for comments I made on this wiki so claims I have posted libel on this wiki are blatantly false. And I won the lawsuit - Kirkegaard discontinued in May and has to pay my legal fees as the losing party. The preliminary judgement concerned fact versus opinion and ruled my comments were &quot;expressions of opinion and are defamatory&quot; ''however'' the judge pointed out &quot;For the avoidance of doubt, I am not deciding the question of serious harm under s 1 of the Defamation Act 2013.&quot; (the preliminary was to determine whether my comments were fact or opinion not the question of serious harm and I won it on the basis I was arguing my comments were opinions while Kirkegaard incorrectly said they were facts and he was criticised by the judge for taking my comments out of context). Had it gone to full trial or summary judgement (I filed for) a judge would have decided if my comments were either honest opinion (my legal defence) or defamation based on the serious harm question. Kirkegaard discontinued the lawsuit shortly before the judge was going to decide this knowing he/she would almost certainly have ruled my opinions were honestly held rather than defamation. So did I defame him? No. It' s highly misleading to say I did since my comments were upheld as honest opinion which provides a legal defence to defamation (other than truth) and he discontinued the lawsuit knowing the judge in the summary judgement would have ruled my comments did not cause him serious harm. Of course, I don't expect Ze (formerly EK) or Dysk (aka D) to acknowledge this and both of them have spent the past year character assassinating me on Reddit and various wiki-related forums over this lawsuit. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} :You doxed me [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=2073359&amp;oldid=2073357&amp;unhide=1 here] and then a bunch of other times that I could find if you really want and then doxed other editors later and when your comments were suppressed you went to do the same thing on other sites including [[Kiwi Farms]] whose users still follow me around to harrass even now because of it. {{User:Ze/?}} 14:02, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Upon further consideration, I changed my mind. I hadn't quite seen the KiwiFarms shit. Let me be clear here, anyone who is on that site and thinks that posting anything to do with a member here is an A-Okay thing can honestly and directly fuck off. Smith needs as far as I am concerned no more place here. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: I've never doxed Ze - they formerly used their name initials (EK) on RationalWiki which is public knowledge. They renamed their account. They were banned from Wikipedia for trolling using their real name. How is any of this doxing if they've publicly used their real name as their account name on Wikipedia and used their initials on RationalWiki? If you go down that road and define doxing as someone who posts public information then by the same definition Ze (aka EK) has doxed me by posting my name Oliver Smith all over the place.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: LOL. If you want to ban people who post on Kiwi Farms, then ban EK/Ze - she posts there and libelled me as a pedophile on an account. It would be pretty moronic to deny this is her since the account is an SPA dedicated to attacking me and contains the same &quot;feminazi&quot; name description. EK/Ze has been using Kiwi Farms to libel me for months.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} My account initials were never connected to any name until you decided to do that, obviously it was public knowledge after you made it public knowledge which is what you must have wanted. The Zionist Feminazi account on Kiwifarms is obviously not me, and in addition to calling you a pedophile it doxes LGM, posts personal information about Dysk, claims Bongolian is your brother, and calls various peeps here SJWs which tbf is fairly standard for all the posters on that thread. It also engages in severe transphobia against dysk which seems cringe and is ngl a lot like your own very transphobic comments about dysk you made [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&amp;target=Arthur+Kerensa&amp;timestamp=20190426123447 here] which is now suppressed. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :What personal info from me was revealed? DM may be appropriate. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account on Kiwifarms is Ze who calls herself a feminazi here. Ze and Dysk claim to be siblings in real life. The &quot;Zionist Feminist&quot; account on Kiwi Farms libeled me as a pedophile and it is ''only'' Ze/Dysk that repeats the libel on that account. Ze is also involved with Mikemikev drama and note the only other thread the Feminazi account on KF posted in is Mike's. There are plenty of other evidences that account is Ze.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: On Kiwi Farms there is talk that Ze and Dysk are the same person. On his Reddit account, Dysk posted several times he is in actual fact Ze. Does anyone know what all this is about, or is it an elaborate hoax? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::It's a well known fact nothing I post on Reddit is true, I have no idea why people still take me seriously there. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::&lt;s&gt;I disagree with a ban of Smith,&lt;/s&gt; I personally don't have an opinion either way. I'd say that a stern admonishment along with a 2 way interaction ban from contacting Ze (and vice-versa) &lt;s&gt;should be sufficient in my opinion&lt;/s&gt; would be a good idea in the event that Smith is not banned. Additionally, a preemptive sysoprevoke may be in order, especially with Ze active on the site. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Kiko you are a moron, if you want to comment, make an effort to understand the situation. You want an interaction ban for someone who doxed several editors? What a joke. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::: EK/Ze doxxed my brother and if they didn't do that I wouldn't have even looked into their identity and found their Wikipedia account. My actions were retaliatory - Proof is here. View this edit: https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 (this is me confronting Ze over the dox of my brother ''before'' I posted links to their Wikipedia account with their name). [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od|7}} Glad to see that you admit to doxing Ze now mate, your denials were fucking tiresome. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:59, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ===Cultivating this many sockpuppets=== I don't know, man. Sockpuppetry is not explicitly against our rules. In fact having sock accounts has largely been condoned in the past. But I can't help but feel that this Oliver D. Smith business has taken it to a whole other level. It may be worth it to ban them simply because they're more trouble than they're worth. We don't need to embroil RationalWiki in a conflict spanning half the internet, just for the sake of a single user. The scale of this is... disturbing.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 18:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't see the point in any of these debates. Smith and Ze have been involved in an online slap-fight for over a year its on Kiwi Farms, discord, Reddit etc. It's impossible to have both these people on the same website. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I'd be inclined to support banning Smith just based on the scale of the drama they're embroiled in. All sorts of websites and sockpuppets and angry basement-dwellers plus at least one court case. It's not worth it to allow any chance of all that garbage spilling onto RW. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:07, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::If you look up the Wikipedia clusterfuck, EK (Ze) was indef b&amp; as a sockpuppet of Dysk (indef b&amp; as either a suspected troll or irredeemable PITA). I'd provide links, but I can't be arsed with accusations of doxxing. This whole thing is weird AF. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 20:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Ze was originally blocked due to a technical link between us, this was overturned (for Ze) by a Wikimedia steward, based on showing identity documents. Terms of the unblock followed the WP:CLEANSTART guidelines and the original account remains locked. However, despite this I personally remain banned from all Wikipedia projects, for trolling, and ban evasion. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::We don't need the identity documents, obviously, but a link to the ruling would be nice-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::This was largely conducted in private on Wikimedia IRC, you will have to make do with the rather limited WP:AN ruling linked to my &quot;main&quot; Wikipedia account. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}{{ping|User:Dysklyver}} Pull the other one, son. Look, you've had a good run. Let's not spoil it by going down the very silly road of my-sister-totally-started-editing-Wikipedia-a-month-before-I-got-b&amp;-and-whilst-I-was-sockpuppeteering-like-crazy. Smell tests n' all that. I invite you to resign from the board of trustees, hand back both your tech bits, and decide whether you'll use your Dysk or Ze account for voting in future. Graceful exits on gentle off ramps ftw. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 01:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :1. RationalWiki has no rule against sockpuppetry it is a moot argument, nevertheless I will point out that nothing you wrote is true. :2. I've been sockpuppeting on Wikipedia since around 2006. Although my socks are assigned to various SPI cases, the oldest one blocked as &quot;Dysk&quot; is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Adek21 this] November 2006 account. Ze did not get blocked until 2018 (12 years later) and that was a quickly resolved mishap I caused quite accidentally. :3. I never stopped Sockpuppeting on Wikipedia and still edit articles there on a regular basis, occasionally I get banned this doesn't concern me. I haven't been banned for nearly 2 months. :4. I don't intend to quit the board without having pushed certain changes outlined in my candidacy statement, this isn't negotiable. :5. It's probable that I will lose Tech over the IP-Data visibility issue. Not because I did anything wrong, but because of what I said about it. :6. This is very much off-topic to this Coop case, if you have further questions take it to my DMs or Email. :Thanks. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 11:18, 16 September 2020 (UTC) == Ban Abd == I can't remember exactly what this guy did but allegedly trolling and doxing were involved. I think he created a blog to attack various editors after that and the validity of what he wrote there is disputed. Like Smith he was unilaterally banned by a sysop on the basis of doxing without a coop vote, so in the interests of fairness we will confirm this ban too at the same time. Remember that the vote starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority to pass. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Disscussion === Seems like a wise idea, poking through history, it seems his community also was responsible for raiding RW or something? Anyway, that blog of his was in the abuse filter at some point if I'm not mistaken. Unlike Smith, I do think I can be confident in saying that blocking Abd is a good idea. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I mean in terms of damage Smith did more than Abd but yes both should be banned and this is more about procedure since both have been treated as banned for a long time and had hundreds of accounts blocked for ban evasion. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:26, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Abd Lomax is a threat to RationalWiki user's privacy and was rightly banned. He threatened to sue David Gerard and RationalWiki, he posted this on his website coldfusioncommunity in 2018 (if you want I can link to this). He later dropped this idea and filed a lawsuit against Wikipedia for banning him. His lawsuit against Wikipedia was dismissed with prejudice, but Abd claimed in this lawsuit that RationalWiki had 'defamed' him. On Abd's coldfusioncommunity website there are 50 negative articles dedicated to 'researching' RationalWiki editors such as Smith and their alleged sock-puppets. ::Lomax also doxed some RationalWiki staff on his website and some of that information is still live. Fuzzycatpotato has been doxed on Abd Lomax's website his real name and house address has been exposed. Ze is a close friend of Abd Lomax, indeed Lomax wrote on Reddit a few months ago he considers ZE like a &quot;daughter&quot;. Ze also has a discord &quot;The Treehouse&quot; and she invited Abd to join it, and made him a mod there. D/Ze have been in an online slapfight with Smith for a year spilling over multiple websites. We need someone totally uninvolved with this Abd or Smith drama to solve these matters. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 18:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I've only interacted with Abd once, but he did [http://coldfusioncommunity.net/anglo-pyramidologist/darryl-l-smith/skeptic-from-britain/comment-trolling/verifier/ post briefly about me on his site] (he did not doxx me) which brought it to my notice. He does seem to post a lot about RW stuff on his webpage. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Yeah well your like me anonymous so Abd can't get you but he tries to get hold of editors real life names, then he publishes it on his website. Does fuzzy know Abd has published his personal details? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I would vote Aye to a ban of Abd, but I've not been on here long enough. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : Abd was banned on [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Some_random_Smith Some random Smith] a suckpuppet using my surname and then editing Emil Kirkegaard's article when he knew I was involved at the time in a lawsuit with Kirkegaard. So I suspect this was an impersonation. Abd is a malicious troll and [[User_talk:Some_random_Smith#Hey_FYI|David Gerard blocked the Smith account]] recognising it was Abd. Abd falsely claims (without any evidence) I impersonate people on his blog - it's psychological projection and he's describing his own sick behaviour.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I could say the same about you. Funny how you have no self awareness, when you post obviously hypocritical statements. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: The difference is I've never impersonated anyone while Abd Lomax demonstrably has or at least he has used my surname on his sockpuppets. Who am I meant to have impersonated? And why has no mod blocked me for an impersonation? They only seem to exist in your imagination. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: D has admitted to being a [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226696&amp;oldid=2226693 friend] of Lomax. Ze is also a close friend of Abd. We need neutral users on here if any discussion is to go forward. Abd has personally harassed me over email so I am against him fully. I admit I hate this evil ol man! So I am not neutral. I suggest we all stop debating this topic and wait for the voting. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ==Vote to only rehash coops for contentious or irregular old bans...if the users actually come back and contest or try to make edits== ===For=== #[[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # Smith last edited today, Abd alleged edited last a few weeks ago, both users have been constantly active for many years in spite of their bans, and both users are currently and always have contested their bans, but yes absolutely this is a good idea in general. {{User:Ze/?}} 13:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) #[[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|&lt;sup&gt;&quot;Life is short and (insert adjective)&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 15:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 15:53, 15 September 2020 (UTC) #Ban evasion is automatically cause for ban anyway.{{User:Summa Atheologica/sig}} 18:25, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Against=== * I've never doxxed anyone so shouldn't be banned based on a false allegation. See my rebuttal below. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:12, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Derp=== * I would settle for blocking my account on a voluntary basis i.e. post this user has decided to quit. Would I show up again? No. Because this time there was actually a Coop discussion rather than the irregular procedure of banning me via discord with no consensus or discussion. I returned to this wiki to add articles because there was no proper ban, rather, it was two problematic admins (Ze and Dysk) who banned me based on dubious allegations of doxing (I've rebutted these allegations above). There is also a repeated false allegation I libelled Ze or Dysk; yet last time I looked they're the people viciously smearing me on multiple websites as a child abuser and pedophile among many other outrageous claims. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 18:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) [[File:Tobias on kiwifarms 2019.png|thumb|500px|Smith calling the RationalWiki mods and sysops &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot;]] Smith you said after you wrote banned as [[User:Tobias]] that you would never return while calling the mods and sysops here &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot; and saying a highly transphobic homophobic, and ableist [[Kiwi Farms]] thread was true (See the image). Why are you back. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I agree, I think that Ze asks a fair question. That said I will add that I'm not in favour of anything other than a simple 2 way interaction ban on both Ze and Smith. Additionally, I think that Ze should be admonished for misuse of sysop. Everyone makes mistakes, but mistakes like that should never be repeated again. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::There's no transphobia, homophobia, and ableism in any of my comments on KF or anywhere else (not that I actually care). Furthermore it's pretty stupid to use that as a guilt by association fallacy when we both know you (Ze) are the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account I was responding to in that thread who was libelling me as a pedophile. To anyone who wants to actually check that full thread to get the context rather than believe Ze's quote-mines - notice my comment in the screenshot is only responding to &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; after I was provoked. And note how the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account identically matches Ze's posts and writing style, for example take the following comment they posted on Kiwi Farms: {{quotebox|May 18, 2019 Zionist Feminazi maybe the doxing has something to do with how her name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account and the harassment has something to do with how u went onto her talk page and discord to post threats and weird shit about the things u would do unless she redacted a wikipediocracy post to not mention ur insane brother who spends his time spamming reddit?}} To those familiar with Ze aka EK's writing style will know their usage of &quot;ur&quot;. Not only that but it matches identical claims they make here such as the dubious claims of doxing and how her account &quot;name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account&quot; (we've seen that same claim made above by Ze). Add this to the fact EK calls herself as a feminazi and elsewhere has claimed to support zionism plus that user only was posting in the RationalWiki and Mikemikev thread specifically to attack me -is rather conclusive its the same person. How many other people who support zionism and call themself a feminazi with the same writing style to Ze are there? I'm not sure how much more evidence other mods here would need. The fact they are denying this is them shows how highly deceptive they are. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::The Zionist Feminazi user on Kiwifarms is a former close friend of mine, I can confirm it's not Ze. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:32, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I would vote Aye, but 1) I'm not an eligible voter and 2) I think this proposal is ill concieved and we'd be better off if we did what WMF wikis do and implement a procedure for appealing bans that does not involve sockpuppetery. The problem with this proposal is that it encourages people who are banned to evade their bans. Hence invalidating their meaning and purpose. Not good. So if I were an eligible voter, I'd vote Nay, we're better off with the status quo, which at least wouldn't create a precedent that any ban retrospectively deemed &quot;invalid&quot; may simply be disregarded without consequence. This isn't an Anarchy, or a battleground. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:50, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't even understand whey this is a vote. Abd is a certified doxer. I'm not about to give Smith the benefit of the doubt, particularly if there is confirmation that Smith is a doxer. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Either way I think that Smith has admitted to being a sockpuppet of [[User:Tobias]] who has already been indefinitely banned. So I fully agree with you, on the basis of that evidence alone, there appears to be no need for a vote. I don't see why we can't just summarily ban Smith aka Tobias aka Flight instead of bothering with a vote, which is just a waste of everyone's time. If Smith wishes to appeal the ban, and sees it as unjust, and intends to edit there are already proper channels for doing so e.g. on his talk page (if not revoked), by email (if not revoked), or by Discord. If both his talk page, and email access have been revoked, and he is banned from the Discord server, then tough shit. That's his problem, not our problem. If that's the case then we can just ban him, then Forget It, Move On. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: @ Kiko and Bongolian - my Tobias account was banned without the correct procedure. It was banned with no discussion or vote based on a dubious claim of doxing. I dispute the doxing claim because all I did is link to Ze (aka EK) Wikipedia account. That's all I ever did. I don't consider that doxing. Ze's dubious claim is it was doxing because she had not mentioned/linked her Wikipedia account on RationalWiki. Wikipedia accounts are public. Perhaps the reason Ze acted the way they did is because their Wikipedia account is perm banned for trolling and they're a notorious sockpuppeteer - there's dozens of accounts banned under their name. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Are we going to ignore you doxing Greenrd, Occam, and that you posted Ze's full name which isn't in the Wikipedia link? Get real mate, you can focus on one thing, and there are a dozen more offenses I can list. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: You're a proven liar. Ze's full name is in the Wikipedia url I posted. A mere google search of &quot;Greenrd&quot; ''reveals his full name''. How is that doxing? This stuff is public and Greenrd connects his online pseudonym to his real name on multiple sites. Same for Captain Occam who has identified himself on blogs and forums (his real name) with his pseudonym. None of this is doxxing (revealing private information), but you know that. You've made up a tun of false allegations to smear me with. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Remarkably Smith, what you wrote there is proven lies by the suppression logs already posted on this page... I guess you are full of shite. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::: That's your and EK's usual response when you're been exposed as outright lying. &quot;It's the logs!&quot; when these aren't even viewable. And lol @ doxing Greenrd when his surname is his pseudonmyn. But I guess you're going to go back to spamming Reddit with your &quot;Oliver is a malicious doxxer&quot; crap. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===A summary of my actions wrongly claimed to be doxxing by EK and Dysk=== * Ze's former name on RationalWiki was EK. Those are her real name initials and she has a Wikipedia account (banned) under her real name. I linked to the Wikipedia account. * Greenrd pseudonym is his surname. All I did was Google his name and you get his full name including surname on plenty of sites. The first link on Google has Greenrd, his surname and first name (I won't here post, but its public). * Captain Occam (a banned Wikipedia troll) has identified his pseudonyms (Captain Occam, Occam) with his real name on blogs and forums. So how did I dox any of these people? Nothing I linked or posted was private information. If EK wanted to be anonymous in cyberspace why use her real name initials on RationalWiki and sign up a Wikipedia account with full real name? Based on the above false allegations of doxing I was incorrectly banned on the user:Tobias.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:49, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't think you or D/Ze should continue your slapfight on this website. It's been going on over a year on other platforms. You need to put an end to it and just agree to never talk to each other again. Users should stop arguing here and just wait to vote on the bans. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The problem is the mods or other users aren't looking at the evidence, some are uncritically going along with D/Ze's total BS and lies. I've never doxxed those 3 listed people. Anyone impartial can see that if they read my simple rebuttal above. No information I've posted is private but public.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Just because Ze volunteered her real life name on one platform, doesn't justify you revealing it on another one. Revealing her name on RW is doxxing. And you continuing to point out her real world initials should be reason for immediate block for as long as it takes until we get the permaban vote concluded. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 23:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Anyone can Google these peoples usernames and get their real life name because they are publicly attached to their accounts on other websites like Greenrd so it does not match the usual definition of &quot;doxing&quot; used in law because the information is public, not private. But there is a stricter definition of the term doxing on this website where you can not divulge any name from any external website even if it is public and connect it to a pseudonym. This sort of connecting the pieces research is forbidden. My advice is to close your account here and move on. Abd is not coming back here. You should not come back either. The best way to leave is by choice. The infighting on this website can be very toxic. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Four points as a rebuttal: :::::(1) They used their real name initials on RationalWiki. :::::(2) They use their first real name on RationalWiki-related discord chats. :::::(3) Ze claims their brother is Dysk; the latter's Wikipedia account is connected to his sisters and since Dysk has mentioned his Wikipedia identity on RationalWiki it was easy to find :::::(4) Finally, I don't use the weakened definition of doxing but the strong dictionary definition which contradicts what Coigreach said. Cambridge dictionary definition: &quot;the action of finding or publishing private information about someone on the internet without their permission, especially in a way that reveals their name, address, etc.&quot; Key word: private. EK signed up her real name on Wikipedia. How is that private? It isn't - Wikipedia is a public site. What would be doxing is if someone leaked actual private information including, for example a name behind a paywall site or credit card details. Guess what? [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 The former is what EK did to my brother] on the Wikipedocracy forum which is what I confronted them about on Tobias and asked them to retract where they did this. My brother was doxxed by a troll who put his name on the internet having paid for his information behind paywall site. My brother never released his name on any public website - yet EK went around the internet doxxing him on multiple websites. I then get banned for posting Ek's name after I was confronting them about doxxing my brother. You really couldn't make it up. Had they not doxxed my brother I wouldn't have looked into their identity and found their Wikipedia account. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 My actions were retaliatory]. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:39, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::: Ze/Abd have both been doxing your family so in retaliation you found her banned Wikipedia account name. I understand but this slap-fight has been going on too long. There is bad on all sides. Nobody is innocent here. Abd was the first to dox your family. Abd has quite an influence on Ze. I think the real issue here is him and his bad influence on some from this community. I mean it was him that started this flame war between you guys. But I am bored of this now and I going to sleep. My advice is to move on. These petty online feuds are not worth the time. I seriously think you should close your account on here. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 00:00, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::: (Edit conflict) (1) Again, it wasn't known that those were her real life initials until you brought it up. ::::::(2)I hold a strong belief that what happens in Discord should have no bearing here. ::::::(3)Just because it's easy to find doesn't mean it's justifiable to reveal. Also, what Dysk reveals shouldn't make it okay to reveal extended information about his (alleged) sister. ::::::(4)This ''is'' RationalWiki. And our more strict definition of Doxxing applies as far as the blocking policy is concerned. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 00:01, 16 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2226898</id> <title>RationalWiki:Chicken coop</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2226898"/> <updated>2020-09-16T11:00:35Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Discussion */ <hr /> <div>__NEWSECTIONLINK__{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}[[Category:RationalWiki]][[Category:RationalWiki moderation]][[Category:Turdblossoms]] [[Category:Shit articles]] {{hatnote|Not to be confused with the [[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation|moderator noticeboard]].}} {{talkpage |search=yes}} {{shortcut|RW:CC|RW:COOP}} &lt;!-- {{/status|}} --&gt; {{/status|4}} The '''chicken coop''' is for the avoidance, containment and resolution of cases of [[Headless Chicken Mode]] (HCM). Despite the name, this tends to be serious business. This page can be used for reporting cases of administrative abuse (abuse of [[RationalWiki:Sysop guide|sysop]] or [[RationalWiki:Moderators|moderator]] abilities such as blocking, page deletion, or user rights management), general abuse (such as [[troll]]ing, [[wandalism]], and personal attacks), and '''conflicts which cannot be solved through normal talk page discussion''' (such as long-standing edit wars or article content disputes). Please be specific and include links to any relevant discussions, page edits or logs. All editors are welcome to comment on the cases raised here, and to try to reach a consensus on any action to be taken. If no consensus can be reached, and the HCM seems to be escalating, moderators are expected to take some action. However, any serious or permanent solution, such as removal of rights or lengthy ban, requires a community vote here according to the guidelines laid out in our [[RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Voting|Community Standards]]. '''Please''' try to resolve conflicts directly through discussion on other editor's talk pages '''before''' reporting them. It's better to just talk to someone rather than try to drag their name through the mud. If the issue is not conflict resolution, but concerns RationalWiki policies, suggested changes to how things work around here, or similar matters of principle, please post '''[[RationalWiki talk:Community Standards|on the Community Standards talk page]] instead. When presenting a case here, be sure to include ''whom'' you are accusing, what exactly you are accusing them ''of'', some hard ''evidence'', and a brief ''explanation''. Since the sole purpose of the Coop is to resolve these disputes, don't post unrelated or more generalized complaints here — if you do, your posts will be moved off the page. Any vote started within 48 hours of filing will be deleted and you will be blocked. Use {{tl|CoopNotice}} to inform the user in question, so that they have a chance to discuss their actions here. As a final note, if you think this page is a good tactic to apply in gaming the mob into doing your bidding, you may be shocked to see your post archived ''quite'' swiftly. == Ban Smith == I propose to formally ban the user known as &quot;Smith&quot; for the offenses of: # Doxing me and at least 3 other members of this site on various talk pages here and creating at least 2 libellous attack pages on editors here. # Doxing members of this site on [[Kiwi Farms]] and Reddit and elsewhere. # Attempting to bulk delete pages here in [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?oldid=2040594 connection with] a lawsuit and causing disruption in the process along with arguably shifting the legal responsibility for those pages onto the site users who voted to keep them. # Deliberately introducing defamatory material to multiple pages as part of a [http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2019/3393.html dispute] with some crank. # Using this site to carry out a flame war with [[Mikemikev]] and [[Abd]] for several years including impersonating both on several occasions. # Vandalism and trolling with &quot;throwaway&quot; accounts to disrupt site processes on numerous occasions. I'm not going to specify any evidence because the most relevant evidence is suppressed and everyone with suppression access is well aware of the situation already. Just remember voting starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Discussion === :so we are being asked to vote to ban a user few of us actually know who they are with no evidence provided? another coop another farce. [[User:AMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] ([[User talk:AMassiveGay|talk]]) 12:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yes exactly that. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::It's honestly difficult to get the details clear, since a lot was suppressed. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus That said, this discussion remains] as well as the AfD Ze has linked. It appears to be tied to the [[Mikemikev]]/[[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]] drama, the former of whom got banned from RW for... what should frankly be obvious reasons (just read his page lol). I'll be frank, I won't vote in the Smith stuff since I don't know this particular drama shitstorm surrounding those two, but as far as I'm concerned, there is not exactly a great loss to the wiki should they remain gone? -Also just to quickly clarify, this coop isn't about nobs lol-. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Not banning him would kinda send the message that doxing is ok here so my vote is settled already. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Smith's only real activity here was and is meant to further internet grudges and escalate drama. It's caused problems on more than one occasion. Not an editor we need to keep around. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 13:21, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Funny comment considering I've added the most articles of any editor to RationalWiki. Most the people criticising me instead don't add constructive content but use this wiki as a chat-room such as Saloon bar (a place I've virtually never visited).[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: I've never doxed, impersonated or defamed anyone, notice as well no evidence is ever presented for these wild allegations. Ze has engaged in a gaslighting campaign against me for some time and nothing they post about me is accurate. They link to the preliminary judgement ''Kirkegaard v Smith [2019] EWHC 3393 (QB)'' but that has nothing to do with RationalWiki. I was never sued for comments I made on this wiki so claims I have posted libel on this wiki are blatantly false. And I won the lawsuit - Kirkegaard discontinued in May and has to pay my legal fees as the losing party. The preliminary judgement concerned fact versus opinion and ruled my comments were &quot;expressions of opinion and are defamatory&quot; ''however'' the judge pointed out &quot;For the avoidance of doubt, I am not deciding the question of serious harm under s 1 of the Defamation Act 2013.&quot; (the preliminary was to determine whether my comments were fact or opinion not the question of serious harm and I won it on the basis I was arguing my comments were opinions while Kirkegaard incorrectly said they were facts and he was criticised by the judge for taking my comments out of context). Had it gone to full trial or summary judgement (I filed for) a judge would have decided if my comments were either honest opinion (my legal defence) or defamation based on the serious harm question. Kirkegaard discontinued the lawsuit shortly before the judge was going to decide this knowing he/she would almost certainly have ruled my opinions were honestly held rather than defamation. So did I defame him? No. It' s highly misleading to say I did since my comments were upheld as honest opinion which provides a legal defence to defamation (other than truth) and he discontinued the lawsuit knowing the judge in the summary judgement would have ruled my comments did not cause him serious harm. Of course, I don't expect Ze (formerly EK) or Dysk (aka D) to acknowledge this and both of them have spent the past year character assassinating me on Reddit and various wiki-related forums over this lawsuit. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} :You doxed me [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=2073359&amp;oldid=2073357&amp;unhide=1 here] and then a bunch of other times that I could find if you really want and then doxed other editors later and when your comments were suppressed you went to do the same thing on other sites including [[Kiwi Farms]] whose users still follow me around to harrass even now because of it. {{User:Ze/?}} 14:02, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Upon further consideration, I changed my mind. I hadn't quite seen the KiwiFarms shit. Let me be clear here, anyone who is on that site and thinks that posting anything to do with a member here is an A-Okay thing can honestly and directly fuck off. Smith needs as far as I am concerned no more place here. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: I've never doxed Ze - they formerly used their name initials (EK) on RationalWiki which is public knowledge. They renamed their account. They were banned from Wikipedia for trolling using their real name. How is any of this doxing if they've publicly used their real name as their account name on Wikipedia and used their initials on RationalWiki? If you go down that road and define doxing as someone who posts public information then by the same definition Ze (aka EK) has doxed me by posting my name Oliver Smith all over the place.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: LOL. If you want to ban people who post on Kiwi Farms, then ban EK/Ze - she posts there and libelled me as a pedophile on an account. It would be pretty moronic to deny this is her since the account is an SPA dedicated to attacking me and contains the same &quot;feminazi&quot; name description. EK/Ze has been using Kiwi Farms to libel me for months.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} My account initials were never connected to any name until you decided to do that, obviously it was public knowledge after you made it public knowledge which is what you must have wanted. The Zionist Feminazi account on Kiwifarms is obviously not me, and in addition to calling you a pedophile it doxes LGM, posts personal information about Dysk, claims Bongolian is your brother, and calls various peeps here SJWs which tbf is fairly standard for all the posters on that thread. It also engages in severe transphobia against dysk which seems cringe and is ngl a lot like your own very transphobic comments about dysk you made [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&amp;target=Arthur+Kerensa&amp;timestamp=20190426123447 here] which is now suppressed. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :What personal info from me was revealed? DM may be appropriate. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account on Kiwifarms is Ze who calls herself a feminazi here. Ze and Dysk claim to be siblings in real life. The &quot;Zionist Feminist&quot; account on Kiwi Farms libeled me as a pedophile and it is ''only'' Ze/Dysk that repeats the libel on that account. Ze is also involved with Mikemikev drama and note the only other thread the Feminazi account on KF posted in is Mike's. There are plenty of other evidences that account is Ze.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: On Kiwi Farms there is talk that Ze and Dysk are the same person. On his Reddit account, Dysk posted several times he is in actual fact Ze. Does anyone know what all this is about, or is it an elaborate hoax? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::It's a well known fact nothing I post on Reddit is true, I have no idea why people still take me seriously there. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::&lt;s&gt;I disagree with a ban of Smith,&lt;/s&gt; I personally don't have an opinion either way. I'd say that a stern admonishment along with a 2 way interaction ban from contacting Ze (and vice-versa) &lt;s&gt;should be sufficient in my opinion&lt;/s&gt; would be a good idea in the event that Smith is not banned. Additionally, a preemptive sysoprevoke may be in order, especially with Ze active on the site. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Kiko you are a moron, if you want to comment, make an effort to understand the situation. You want an interaction ban for someone who doxed several editors? What a joke. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::: EK/Ze doxxed my brother and if they didn't do that I wouldn't have even looked into their identity and found their Wikipedia account. My actions were retaliatory - Proof is here. View this edit: https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 (this is me confronting Ze over the dox of my brother ''before'' I posted links to their Wikipedia account with their name). [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od|7}} Glad to see that you admit to doxing Ze now mate, your denials were fucking tiresome. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 10:59, 16 September 2020 (UTC) ===Cultivating this many sockpuppets=== I don't know, man. Sockpuppetry is not explicitly against our rules. In fact having sock accounts has largely been condoned in the past. But I can't help but feel that this Oliver D. Smith business has taken it to a whole other level. It may be worth it to ban them simply because they're more trouble than they're worth. We don't need to embroil RationalWiki in a conflict spanning half the internet, just for the sake of a single user. The scale of this is... disturbing.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 18:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't see the point in any of these debates. Smith and Ze have been involved in an online slap-fight for over a year its on Kiwi Farms, discord, Reddit etc. It's impossible to have both these people on the same website. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I'd be inclined to support banning Smith just based on the scale of the drama they're embroiled in. All sorts of websites and sockpuppets and angry basement-dwellers plus at least one court case. It's not worth it to allow any chance of all that garbage spilling onto RW. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:07, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::If you look up the Wikipedia clusterfuck, EK (Ze) was indef b&amp; as a sockpuppet of Dysk (indef b&amp; as either a suspected troll or irredeemable PITA). I'd provide links, but I can't be arsed with accusations of doxxing. This whole thing is weird AF. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 20:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Ze was originally blocked due to a technical link between us, this was overturned (for Ze) by a Wikimedia steward, based on showing identity documents. Terms of the unblock followed the WP:CLEANSTART guidelines and the original account remains locked. However, despite this I personally remain banned from all Wikipedia projects, for trolling, and ban evasion. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::We don't need the identity documents, obviously, but a link to the ruling would be nice-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::This was largely conducted in private on Wikimedia IRC, you will have to make do with the rather limited WP:AN ruling linked to my &quot;main&quot; Wikipedia account. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}{{ping|User:Dysklyver}} Pull the other one, son. Look, you've had a good run. Let's not spoil it by going down the very silly road of my-sister-totally-started-editing-Wikipedia-a-month-before-I-got-b&amp;-and-whilst-I-was-sockpuppeteering-like-crazy. Smell tests n' all that. I invite you to resign from the board of trustees, hand back both your tech bits, and decide whether you'll use your Dysk or Ze account for voting in future. Graceful exits on gentle off ramps ftw. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 01:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC) == Ban Abd == I can't remember exactly what this guy did but allegedly trolling and doxing were involved. I think he created a blog to attack various editors after that and the validity of what he wrote there is disputed. Like Smith he was unilaterally banned by a sysop on the basis of doxing without a coop vote, so in the interests of fairness we will confirm this ban too at the same time. Remember that the vote starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority to pass. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Disscussion === Seems like a wise idea, poking through history, it seems his community also was responsible for raiding RW or something? Anyway, that blog of his was in the abuse filter at some point if I'm not mistaken. Unlike Smith, I do think I can be confident in saying that blocking Abd is a good idea. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I mean in terms of damage Smith did more than Abd but yes both should be banned and this is more about procedure since both have been treated as banned for a long time and had hundreds of accounts blocked for ban evasion. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:26, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Abd Lomax is a threat to RationalWiki user's privacy and was rightly banned. He threatened to sue David Gerard and RationalWiki, he posted this on his website coldfusioncommunity in 2018 (if you want I can link to this). He later dropped this idea and filed a lawsuit against Wikipedia for banning him. His lawsuit against Wikipedia was dismissed with prejudice, but Abd claimed in this lawsuit that RationalWiki had 'defamed' him. On Abd's coldfusioncommunity website there are 50 negative articles dedicated to 'researching' RationalWiki editors such as Smith and their alleged sock-puppets. ::Lomax also doxed some RationalWiki staff on his website and some of that information is still live. Fuzzycatpotato has been doxed on Abd Lomax's website his real name and house address has been exposed. Ze is a close friend of Abd Lomax, indeed Lomax wrote on Reddit a few months ago he considers ZE like a &quot;daughter&quot;. Ze also has a discord &quot;The Treehouse&quot; and she invited Abd to join it, and made him a mod there. D/Ze have been in an online slapfight with Smith for a year spilling over multiple websites. We need someone totally uninvolved with this Abd or Smith drama to solve these matters. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 18:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I've only interacted with Abd once, but he did [http://coldfusioncommunity.net/anglo-pyramidologist/darryl-l-smith/skeptic-from-britain/comment-trolling/verifier/ post briefly about me on his site] (he did not doxx me) which brought it to my notice. He does seem to post a lot about RW stuff on his webpage. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Yeah well your like me anonymous so Abd can't get you but he tries to get hold of editors real life names, then he publishes it on his website. Does fuzzy know Abd has published his personal details? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I would vote Aye to a ban of Abd, but I've not been on here long enough. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : Abd was banned on [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Some_random_Smith Some random Smith] a suckpuppet using my surname and then editing Emil Kirkegaard's article when he knew I was involved at the time in a lawsuit with Kirkegaard. So I suspect this was an impersonation. Abd is a malicious troll and [[User_talk:Some_random_Smith#Hey_FYI|David Gerard blocked the Smith account]] recognising it was Abd. Abd falsely claims (without any evidence) I impersonate people on his blog - it's psychological projection and he's describing his own sick behaviour.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I could say the same about you. Funny how you have no self awareness, when you post obviously hypocritical statements. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: The difference is I've never impersonated anyone while Abd Lomax demonstrably has or at least he has used my surname on his sockpuppets. Who am I meant to have impersonated? And why has no mod blocked me for an impersonation? They only seem to exist in your imagination. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: D has admitted to being a [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226696&amp;oldid=2226693 friend] of Lomax. Ze is also a close friend of Abd. We need neutral users on here if any discussion is to go forward. Abd has personally harassed me over email so I am against him fully. I admit I hate this evil ol man! So I am not neutral. I suggest we all stop debating this topic and wait for the voting. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ==Vote to only rehash coops for contentious or irregular old bans...if the users actually come back and contest or try to make edits== ===For=== #[[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # Smith last edited today, Abd alleged edited last a few weeks ago, both users have been constantly active for many years in spite of their bans, and both users are currently and always have contested their bans, but yes absolutely this is a good idea in general. {{User:Ze/?}} 13:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) #[[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|&lt;sup&gt;&quot;Life is short and (insert adjective)&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 15:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 15:53, 15 September 2020 (UTC) #Ban evasion is automatically cause for ban anyway.{{User:Summa Atheologica/sig}} 18:25, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Against=== * I've never doxxed anyone so shouldn't be banned based on a false allegation. See my rebuttal below. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:12, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Derp=== * I would settle for blocking my account on a voluntary basis i.e. post this user has decided to quit. Would I show up again? No. Because this time there was actually a Coop discussion rather than the irregular procedure of banning me via discord with no consensus or discussion. I returned to this wiki to add articles because there was no proper ban, rather, it was two problematic admins (Ze and Dysk) who banned me based on dubious allegations of doxing (I've rebutted these allegations above). There is also a repeated false allegation I libelled Ze or Dysk; yet last time I looked they're the people viciously smearing me on multiple websites as a child abuser and pedophile among many other outrageous claims. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 18:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) [[File:Tobias on kiwifarms 2019.png|thumb|500px|Smith calling the RationalWiki mods and sysops &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot;]] Smith you said after you wrote banned as [[User:Tobias]] that you would never return while calling the mods and sysops here &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot; and saying a highly transphobic homophobic, and ableist [[Kiwi Farms]] thread was true (See the image). Why are you back. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I agree, I think that Ze asks a fair question. That said I will add that I'm not in favour of anything other than a simple 2 way interaction ban on both Ze and Smith. Additionally, I think that Ze should be admonished for misuse of sysop. Everyone makes mistakes, but mistakes like that should never be repeated again. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::There's no transphobia, homophobia, and ableism in any of my comments on KF or anywhere else (not that I actually care). Furthermore it's pretty stupid to use that as a guilt by association fallacy when we both know you (Ze) are the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account I was responding to in that thread who was libelling me as a pedophile. To anyone who wants to actually check that full thread to get the context rather than believe Ze's quote-mines - notice my comment in the screenshot is only responding to &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; after I was provoked. And note how the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account identically matches Ze's posts and writing style, for example take the following comment they posted on Kiwi Farms: {{quotebox|May 18, 2019 Zionist Feminazi maybe the doxing has something to do with how her name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account and the harassment has something to do with how u went onto her talk page and discord to post threats and weird shit about the things u would do unless she redacted a wikipediocracy post to not mention ur insane brother who spends his time spamming reddit?}} To those familiar with Ze aka EK's writing style will know their usage of &quot;ur&quot;. Not only that but it matches identical claims they make here such as the dubious claims of doxing and how her account &quot;name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account&quot; (we've seen that same claim made above by Ze). Add this to the fact EK calls herself as a feminazi and elsewhere has claimed to support zionism plus that user only was posting in the RationalWiki and Mikemikev thread specifically to attack me -is rather conclusive its the same person. How many other people who support zionism and call themself a feminazi with the same writing style to Ze are there? I'm not sure how much more evidence other mods here would need. The fact they are denying this is them shows how highly deceptive they are. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::The Zionist Feminazi user on Kiwifarms is a former close friend of mine, I can confirm it's not Ze. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:32, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I would vote Aye, but 1) I'm not an eligible voter and 2) I think this proposal is ill concieved and we'd be better off if we did what WMF wikis do and implement a procedure for appealing bans that does not involve sockpuppetery. The problem with this proposal is that it encourages people who are banned to evade their bans. Hence invalidating their meaning and purpose. Not good. So if I were an eligible voter, I'd vote Nay, we're better off with the status quo, which at least wouldn't create a precedent that any ban retrospectively deemed &quot;invalid&quot; may simply be disregarded without consequence. This isn't an Anarchy, or a battleground. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:50, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't even understand whey this is a vote. Abd is a certified doxer. I'm not about to give Smith the benefit of the doubt, particularly if there is confirmation that Smith is a doxer. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Either way I think that Smith has admitted to being a sockpuppet of [[User:Tobias]] who has already been indefinitely banned. So I fully agree with you, on the basis of that evidence alone, there appears to be no need for a vote. I don't see why we can't just summarily ban Smith aka Tobias aka Flight instead of bothering with a vote, which is just a waste of everyone's time. If Smith wishes to appeal the ban, and sees it as unjust, and intends to edit there are already proper channels for doing so e.g. on his talk page (if not revoked), by email (if not revoked), or by Discord. If both his talk page, and email access have been revoked, and he is banned from the Discord server, then tough shit. That's his problem, not our problem. If that's the case then we can just ban him, then Forget It, Move On. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: @ Kiko and Bongolian - my Tobias account was banned without the correct procedure. It was banned with no discussion or vote based on a dubious claim of doxing. I dispute the doxing claim because all I did is link to Ze (aka EK) Wikipedia account. That's all I ever did. I don't consider that doxing. Ze's dubious claim is it was doxing because she had not mentioned/linked her Wikipedia account on RationalWiki. Wikipedia accounts are public. Perhaps the reason Ze acted the way they did is because their Wikipedia account is perm banned for trolling and they're a notorious sockpuppeteer - there's dozens of accounts banned under their name. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Are we going to ignore you doxing Greenrd, Occam, and that you posted Ze's full name which isn't in the Wikipedia link? Get real mate, you can focus on one thing, and there are a dozen more offenses I can list. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: You're a proven liar. Ze's full name is in the Wikipedia url I posted. A mere google search of &quot;Greenrd&quot; ''reveals his full name''. How is that doxing? This stuff is public and Greenrd connects his online pseudonym to his real name on multiple sites. Same for Captain Occam who has identified himself on blogs and forums (his real name) with his pseudonym. None of this is doxxing (revealing private information), but you know that. You've made up a tun of false allegations to smear me with. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Remarkably Smith, what you wrote there is proven lies by the suppression logs already posted on this page... I guess you are full of shite. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::: That's your and EK's usual response when you're been exposed as outright lying. &quot;It's the logs!&quot; when these aren't even viewable. And lol @ doxing Greenrd when his surname is his pseudonmyn. But I guess you're going to go back to spamming Reddit with your &quot;Oliver is a malicious doxxer&quot; crap. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===A summary of my actions wrongly claimed to be doxxing by EK and Dysk=== * Ze's former name on RationalWiki was EK. Those are her real name initials and she has a Wikipedia account (banned) under her real name. I linked to the Wikipedia account. * Greenrd pseudonym is his surname. All I did was Google his name and you get his full name including surname on plenty of sites. The first link on Google has Greenrd, his surname and first name (I won't here post, but its public). * Captain Occam (a banned Wikipedia troll) has identified his pseudonyms (Captain Occam, Occam) with his real name on blogs and forums. So how did I dox any of these people? Nothing I linked or posted was private information. If EK wanted to be anonymous in cyberspace why use her real name initials on RationalWiki and sign up a Wikipedia account with full real name? Based on the above false allegations of doxing I was incorrectly banned on the user:Tobias.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:49, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't think you or D/Ze should continue your slapfight on this website. It's been going on over a year on other platforms. You need to put an end to it and just agree to never talk to each other again. Users should stop arguing here and just wait to vote on the bans. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The problem is the mods or other users aren't looking at the evidence, some are uncritically going along with D/Ze's total BS and lies. I've never doxxed those 3 listed people. Anyone impartial can see that if they read my simple rebuttal above. No information I've posted is private but public.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Just because Ze volunteered her real life name on one platform, doesn't justify you revealing it on another one. Revealing her name on RW is doxxing. And you continuing to point out her real world initials should be reason for immediate block for as long as it takes until we get the permaban vote concluded. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 23:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Anyone can Google these peoples usernames and get their real life name because they are publicly attached to their accounts on other websites like Greenrd so it does not match the usual definition of &quot;doxing&quot; used in law because the information is public, not private. But there is a stricter definition of the term doxing on this website where you can not divulge any name from any external website even if it is public and connect it to a pseudonym. This sort of connecting the pieces research is forbidden. My advice is to close your account here and move on. Abd is not coming back here. You should not come back either. The best way to leave is by choice. The infighting on this website can be very toxic. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 23:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Four points as a rebuttal: :::::(1) They used their real name initials on RationalWiki. :::::(2) They use their first real name on RationalWiki-related discord chats. :::::(3) Ze claims their brother is Dysk; the latter's Wikipedia account is connected to his sisters and since Dysk has mentioned his Wikipedia identity on RationalWiki it was easy to find :::::(4) Finally, I don't use the weakened definition of doxing but the strong dictionary definition which contradicts what Coigreach said. Cambridge dictionary definition: &quot;the action of finding or publishing private information about someone on the internet without their permission, especially in a way that reveals their name, address, etc.&quot; Key word: private. EK signed up her real name on Wikipedia. How is that private? It isn't - Wikipedia is a public site. What would be doxing is if someone leaked actual private information including, for example a name behind a paywall site or credit card details. Guess what? [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 The former is what EK did to my brother] on the Wikipedocracy forum which is what I confronted them about on Tobias and asked them to retract where they did this. My brother was doxxed by a troll who put his name on the internet having paid for his information behind paywall site. My brother never released his name on any public website - yet EK went around the internet doxxing him on multiple websites. I then get banned for posting Ek's name after I was confronting them about doxxing my brother. You really couldn't make it up. Had they not doxxed my brother I wouldn't have looked into their identity and found their Wikipedia account. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2073294 My actions were retaliatory]. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:39, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::: Ze/Abd have both been doxing your family so in retaliation you found her banned Wikipedia account name. I understand but this slap-fight has been going on too long. There is bad on all sides. Nobody is innocent here. Abd was the first to dox your family. Abd has quite an influence on Ze. I think the real issue here is him and his bad influence on some from this community. I mean it was him that started this flame war between you guys. But I am bored of this now and I going to sleep. My advice is to move on. These petty online feuds are not worth the time. I seriously think you should close your account on here. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 00:00, 16 September 2020 (UTC) :::::: (Edit conflict) (1) Again, it wasn't known that those were her real life initials until you brought it up. ::::::(2)I hold a strong belief that what happens in Discord should have no bearing here. ::::::(3)Just because it's easy to find doesn't mean it's justifiable to reveal. Also, what Dysk reveals shouldn't make it okay to reveal extended information about his (alleged) sister. ::::::(4)This ''is'' RationalWiki. And our more strict definition of Doxxing applies as far as the blocking policy is concerned. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 00:01, 16 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2226711</id> <title>RationalWiki:Chicken coop</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2226711"/> <updated>2020-09-15T22:13:00Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Disscussion */ <hr /> <div>__NEWSECTIONLINK__{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}[[Category:RationalWiki]][[Category:RationalWiki moderation]][[Category:Turdblossoms]] [[Category:Shit articles]] {{hatnote|Not to be confused with the [[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation|moderator noticeboard]].}} {{talkpage |search=yes}} {{shortcut|RW:CC|RW:COOP}} &lt;!-- {{/status|}} --&gt; {{/status|4}} The '''chicken coop''' is for the avoidance, containment and resolution of cases of [[Headless Chicken Mode]] (HCM). Despite the name, this tends to be serious business. This page can be used for reporting cases of administrative abuse (abuse of [[RationalWiki:Sysop guide|sysop]] or [[RationalWiki:Moderators|moderator]] abilities such as blocking, page deletion, or user rights management), general abuse (such as [[troll]]ing, [[wandalism]], and personal attacks), and '''conflicts which cannot be solved through normal talk page discussion''' (such as long-standing edit wars or article content disputes). Please be specific and include links to any relevant discussions, page edits or logs. All editors are welcome to comment on the cases raised here, and to try to reach a consensus on any action to be taken. If no consensus can be reached, and the HCM seems to be escalating, moderators are expected to take some action. However, any serious or permanent solution, such as removal of rights or lengthy ban, requires a community vote here according to the guidelines laid out in our [[RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Voting|Community Standards]]. '''Please''' try to resolve conflicts directly through discussion on other editor's talk pages '''before''' reporting them. It's better to just talk to someone rather than try to drag their name through the mud. If the issue is not conflict resolution, but concerns RationalWiki policies, suggested changes to how things work around here, or similar matters of principle, please post '''[[RationalWiki talk:Community Standards|on the Community Standards talk page]] instead. When presenting a case here, be sure to include ''whom'' you are accusing, what exactly you are accusing them ''of'', some hard ''evidence'', and a brief ''explanation''. Since the sole purpose of the Coop is to resolve these disputes, don't post unrelated or more generalized complaints here — if you do, your posts will be moved off the page. Any vote started within 48 hours of filing will be deleted and you will be blocked. Use {{tl|CoopNotice}} to inform the user in question, so that they have a chance to discuss their actions here. As a final note, if you think this page is a good tactic to apply in gaming the mob into doing your bidding, you may be shocked to see your post archived ''quite'' swiftly. == Ban Smith == I propose to formally ban the user known as &quot;Smith&quot; for the offenses of: # Doxing me and at least 3 other members of this site on various talk pages here and creating at least 2 libellous attack pages on editors here. # Doxing members of this site on [[Kiwi Farms]] and Reddit and elsewhere. # Attempting to bulk delete pages here in [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?oldid=2040594 connection with] a lawsuit and causing disruption in the process along with arguably shifting the legal responsibility for those pages onto the site users who voted to keep them. # Deliberately introducing defamatory material to multiple pages as part of a [http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2019/3393.html dispute] with some crank. # Using this site to carry out a flame war with [[Mikemikev]] and [[Abd]] for several years including impersonating both on several occasions. # Vandalism and trolling with &quot;throwaway&quot; accounts to disrupt site processes on numerous occasions. I'm not going to specify any evidence because the most relevant evidence is suppressed and everyone with suppression access is well aware of the situation already. Just remember voting starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Discussion === :so we are being asked to vote to ban a user few of us actually know who they are with no evidence provided? another coop another farce. [[User:AMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] ([[User talk:AMassiveGay|talk]]) 12:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yes exactly that. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::It's honestly difficult to get the details clear, since a lot was suppressed. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus That said, this discussion remains] as well as the AfD Ze has linked. It appears to be tied to the [[Mikemikev]]/[[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]] drama, the former of whom got banned from RW for... what should frankly be obvious reasons (just read his page lol). I'll be frank, I won't vote in the Smith stuff since I don't know this particular drama shitstorm surrounding those two, but as far as I'm concerned, there is not exactly a great loss to the wiki should they remain gone? -Also just to quickly clarify, this coop isn't about nobs lol-. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Not banning him would kinda send the message that doxing is ok here so my vote is settled already. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Smith's only real activity here was and is meant to further internet grudges and escalate drama. It's caused problems on more than one occasion. Not an editor we need to keep around. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 13:21, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Funny comment considering I've added the most articles of any editor to RationalWiki. Most the people criticising me instead don't add constructive content but use this wiki as a chat-room such as Saloon bar (a place I've virtually never visited).[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: I've never doxed, impersonated or defamed anyone, notice as well no evidence is ever presented for these wild allegations. Ze has engaged in a gaslighting campaign against me for some time and nothing they post about me is accurate. They link to the preliminary judgement ''Kirkegaard v Smith [2019] EWHC 3393 (QB)'' but that has nothing to do with RationalWiki. I was never sued for comments I made on this wiki so claims I have posted libel on this wiki are blatantly false. And I won the lawsuit - Kirkegaard discontinued in May and has to pay my legal fees as the losing party. The preliminary judgement concerned fact versus opinion and ruled my comments were &quot;expressions of opinion and are defamatory&quot; ''however'' the judge pointed out &quot;For the avoidance of doubt, I am not deciding the question of serious harm under s 1 of the Defamation Act 2013.&quot; (the preliminary was to determine whether my comments were fact or opinion not the question of serious harm and I won it on the basis I was arguing my comments were opinions while Kirkegaard incorrectly said they were facts and he was criticised by the judge for taking my comments out of context). Had it gone to full trial or summary judgement (I filed for) a judge would have decided if my comments were either honest opinion (my legal defence) or defamation based on the serious harm question. Kirkegaard discontinued the lawsuit shortly before the judge was going to decide this knowing he/she would almost certainly have ruled my opinions were honestly held rather than defamation. So did I defame him? No. It' s highly misleading to say I did since my comments were upheld as honest opinion which provides a legal defence to defamation (other than truth) and he discontinued the lawsuit knowing the judge in the summary judgement would have ruled my comments did not cause him serious harm. Of course, I don't expect Ze (formerly EK) or Dysk (aka D) to acknowledge this and both of them have spent the past year character assassinating me on Reddit and various wiki-related forums over this lawsuit. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} :You doxed me [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=2073359&amp;oldid=2073357&amp;unhide=1 here] and then a bunch of other times that I could find if you really want and then doxed other editors later and when your comments were suppressed you went to do the same thing on other sites including [[Kiwi Farms]] whose users still follow me around to harrass even now because of it. {{User:Ze/?}} 14:02, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Upon further consideration, I changed my mind. I hadn't quite seen the KiwiFarms shit. Let me be clear here, anyone who is on that site and thinks that posting anything to do with a member here is an A-Okay thing can honestly and directly fuck off. Smith needs as far as I am concerned no more place here. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: I've never doxed Ze - they formerly used their name initials (EK) on RationalWiki which is public knowledge. They renamed their account. They were banned from Wikipedia for trolling using their real name. How is any of this doxing if they've publicly used their real name as their account name on Wikipedia and used their initials on RationalWiki? If you go down that road and define doxing as someone who posts public information then by the same definition Ze (aka EK) has doxed me by posting my name Oliver Smith all over the place.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: LOL. If you want to ban people who post on Kiwi Farms, then ban EK/Ze - she posts there and libelled me as a pedophile on an account. It would be pretty moronic to deny this is her since the account is an SPA dedicated to attacking me and contains the same &quot;feminazi&quot; name description. EK/Ze has been using Kiwi Farms to libel me for months.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} My account initials were never connected to any name until you decided to do that, obviously it was public knowledge after you made it public knowledge which is what you must have wanted. The Zionist Feminazi account on Kiwifarms is obviously not me, and in addition to calling you a pedophile it doxes LGM, posts personal information about Dysk, claims Bongolian is your brother, and calls various peeps here SJWs which tbf is fairly standard for all the posters on that thread. It also engages in severe transphobia against dysk which seems cringe and is ngl a lot like your own very transphobic comments about dysk you made [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&amp;target=Arthur+Kerensa&amp;timestamp=20190426123447 here] which is now suppressed. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :What personal info from me was revealed? DM may be appropriate. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account on Kiwifarms is Ze who calls herself a feminazi here. Ze and Dysk claim to be siblings in real life. The &quot;Zionist Feminist&quot; account on Kiwi Farms libeled me as a pedophile and it is ''only'' Ze/Dysk that repeats the libel on that account. Ze is also involved with Mikemikev drama and note the only other thread the Feminazi account on KF posted in is Mike's. There are plenty of other evidences that account is Ze.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: On Kiwi Farms there is talk that Ze and Dysk are the same person. On his Reddit account, Dysk posted several times he is in actual fact Ze. Does anyone know what all this is about, or is it an elaborate hoax? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::It's a well known fact nothing I post on Reddit is true, I have no idea why people still take me seriously there. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::&lt;s&gt;I disagree with a ban of Smith,&lt;/s&gt; I personally don't have an opinion either way. I'd say that a stern admonishment along with a 2 way interaction ban from contacting Ze (and vice-versa) &lt;s&gt;should be sufficient in my opinion&lt;/s&gt; would be a good idea in the event that Smith is not banned. Additionally, a preemptive sysoprevoke may be in order, especially with Ze active on the site. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Kiko you are a moron, if you want to comment, make an effort to understand the situation. You want an interaction ban for someone who doxed several editors? What a joke. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Cultivating this many sockpuppets=== I don't know, man. Sockpuppetry is not explicitly against our rules. In fact having sock accounts has largely been condoned in the past. But I can't help but feel that this Oliver D. Smith business has taken it to a whole other level. It may be worth it to ban them simply because they're more trouble than they're worth. We don't need to embroil RationalWiki in a conflict spanning half the internet, just for the sake of a single user. The scale of this is... disturbing.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 18:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't see the point in any of these debates. Smith and Ze have been involved in an online slap-fight for over a year its on Kiwi Farms, discord, Reddit etc. It's impossible to have both these people on the same website. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I'd be inclined to support banning Smith just based on the scale of the drama they're embroiled in. All sorts of websites and sockpuppets and angry basement-dwellers plus at least one court case. It's not worth it to allow any chance of all that garbage spilling onto RW. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:07, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::If you look up the Wikipedia clusterfuck, EK (Ze) was indef b&amp; as a sockpuppet of Dysk (indef b&amp; as either a suspected troll or irredeemable PITA). I'd provide links, but I can't be arsed with accusations of doxxing. This whole thing is weird AF. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 20:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Ze was originally blocked due to a technical link between us, this was overturned (for Ze) by a Wikimedia steward, based on showing identity documents. Terms of the unblock followed the WP:CLEANSTART guidelines and the original account remains locked. However, despite this I personally remain banned from all Wikipedia projects, for trolling, and ban evasion. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::We don't need the identity documents, obviously, but a link to the ruling would be nice-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::This was largely conducted in private on Wikimedia IRC, you will have to make do with the rather limited WP:AN ruling linked to my &quot;main&quot; Wikipedia account. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) == Ban Abd == I can't remember exactly what this guy did but allegedly trolling and doxing were involved. I think he created a blog to attack various editors after that and the validity of what he wrote there is disputed. Like Smith he was unilaterally banned by a sysop on the basis of doxing without a coop vote, so in the interests of fairness we will confirm this ban too at the same time. Remember that the vote starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority to pass. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Disscussion === Seems like a wise idea, poking through history, it seems his community also was responsible for raiding RW or something? Anyway, that blog of his was in the abuse filter at some point if I'm not mistaken. Unlike Smith, I do think I can be confident in saying that blocking Abd is a good idea. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I mean in terms of damage Smith did more than Abd but yes both should be banned and this is more about procedure since both have been treated as banned for a long time and had hundreds of accounts blocked for ban evasion. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:26, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Abd Lomax is a threat to RationalWiki user's privacy and was rightly banned. He threatened to sue David Gerard and RationalWiki, he posted this on his website coldfusioncommunity in 2018 (if you want I can link to this). He later dropped this idea and filed a lawsuit against Wikipedia for banning him. His lawsuit against Wikipedia was dismissed with prejudice, but Abd claimed in this lawsuit that RationalWiki had 'defamed' him. On Abd's coldfusioncommunity website there are 50 negative articles dedicated to 'researching' RationalWiki editors such as Smith and their alleged sock-puppets. ::Lomax also doxed some RationalWiki staff on his website and some of that information is still live. Fuzzycatpotato has been doxed on Abd Lomax's website his real name and house address has been exposed. Ze is a close friend of Abd Lomax, indeed Lomax wrote on Reddit a few months ago he considers ZE like a &quot;daughter&quot;. Ze also has a discord &quot;The Treehouse&quot; and she invited Abd to join it, and made him a mod there. D/Ze have been in an online slapfight with Smith for a year spilling over multiple websites. We need someone totally uninvolved with this Abd or Smith drama to solve these matters. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 18:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I've only interacted with Abd once, but he did [http://coldfusioncommunity.net/anglo-pyramidologist/darryl-l-smith/skeptic-from-britain/comment-trolling/verifier/ post briefly about me on his site] (he did not doxx me) which brought it to my notice. He does seem to post a lot about RW stuff on his webpage. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Yeah well your like me anonymous so Abd can't get you but he tries to get hold of editors real life names, then he publishes it on his website. Does fuzzy know Abd has published his personal details? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I would vote Aye to a ban of Abd, but I've not been on here long enough. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : Abd was banned on [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Some_random_Smith Some random Smith] a suckpuppet using my surname and then editing Emil Kirkegaard's article when he knew I was involved at the time in a lawsuit with Kirkegaard. So I suspect this was an impersonation. Abd is a malicious troll and [[User_talk:Some_random_Smith#Hey_FYI|David Gerard blocked the Smith account]] recognising it was Abd. Abd falsely claims (without any evidence) I impersonate people on his blog - it's psychological projection and he's describing his own sick behaviour.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 22:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I could say the same about you. Funny how you have no self awareness, when you post obviously hypocritical statements. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ==Vote to only rehash coops for contentious or irregular old bans...if the users actually come back and contest or try to make edits== ===For=== #[[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # Smith last edited today, Abd alleged edited last a few weeks ago, both users have been constantly active for many years in spite of their bans, and both users are currently and always have contested their bans, but yes absolutely this is a good idea in general. {{User:Ze/?}} 13:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) #[[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|&lt;sup&gt;&quot;Life is short and (insert adjective)&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 15:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 15:53, 15 September 2020 (UTC) #Ban evasion is automatically cause for ban anyway.{{User:Summa Atheologica/sig}} 18:25, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Against=== ===Derp=== * I would settle for blocking my account on a voluntary basis i.e. post this user has decided to quit. Would I show up again? No. Because this time there was actually a Coop discussion rather than the irregular procedure of banning me via discord with no consensus or discussion. I returned to this wiki to add articles because there was no proper ban, rather, it was two problematic admins (Ze and Dysk) who banned me based on dubious allegations of doxing (I've rebutted these allegations above). There is also a repeated false allegation I libelled Ze or Dysk; yet last time I looked they're the people viciously smearing me on multiple websites as a child abuser and pedophile among many other outrageous claims. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 18:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) [[File:Tobias on kiwifarms 2019.png|thumb|500px|Smith calling the RationalWiki mods and sysops &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot;]] Smith you said after you wrote banned as [[User:Tobias]] that you would never return while calling the mods and sysops here &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot; and saying a highly transphobic homophobic, and ableist [[Kiwi Farms]] thread was true (See the image). Why are you back. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I agree, I think that Ze asks a fair question. That said I will add that I'm not in favour of anything other than a simple 2 way interaction ban on both Ze and Smith. Additionally, I think that Ze should be admonished for misuse of sysop. Everyone makes mistakes, but mistakes like that should never be repeated again. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::There's no transphobia, homophobia, and ableism in any of my comments on KF or anywhere else (not that I actually care). Furthermore it's pretty stupid to use that as a guilt by association fallacy when we both know you (Ze) are the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account I was responding to in that thread who was libelling me as a pedophile. To anyone who wants to actually check that full thread to get the context rather than believe Ze's quote-mines - notice my comment in the screenshot is only responding to &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; after I was provoked. And note how the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account identically matches Ze's posts and writing style, for example take the following comment they posted on Kiwi Farms: {{quotebox|May 18, 2019 Zionist Feminazi maybe the doxing has something to do with how her name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account and the harassment has something to do with how u went onto her talk page and discord to post threats and weird shit about the things u would do unless she redacted a wikipediocracy post to not mention ur insane brother who spends his time spamming reddit?}} To those familiar with Ze aka EK's writing style will know their usage of &quot;ur&quot;. Not only that but it matches identical claims they make here such as the dubious claims of doxing and how her account &quot;name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account&quot; (we've seen that same claim made above by Ze). Add this to the fact EK calls herself as a feminazi and elsewhere has claimed to support zionism plus that user only was posting in the RationalWiki and Mikemikev thread specifically to attack me -is rather conclusive its the same person. How many other people who support zionism and call themself a feminazi with the same writing style to Ze are there? I'm not sure how much more evidence other mods here would need. The fact they are denying this is them shows how highly deceptive they are. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::The Zionist Feminazi user on Kiwifarms is a former close friend of mine, I can confirm it's not Ze. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:32, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I would vote Aye, but 1) I'm not an eligible voter and 2) I think this proposal is ill concieved and we'd be better off if we did what WMF wikis do and implement a procedure for appealing bans that does not involve sockpuppetery. The problem with this proposal is that it encourages people who are banned to evade their bans. Hence invalidating their meaning and purpose. Not good. So if I were an eligible voter, I'd vote Nay, we're better off with the status quo, which at least wouldn't create a precedent that any ban retrospectively deemed &quot;invalid&quot; may simply be disregarded without consequence. This isn't an Anarchy, or a battleground. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:50, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't even understand whey this is a vote. Abd is a certified doxer. I'm not about to give Smith the benefit of the doubt, particularly if there is confirmation that Smith is a doxer. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Either way I think that Smith has admitted to being a sockpuppet of [[User:Tobias]] who has already been indefinitely banned. So I fully agree with you, on the basis of that evidence alone, there appears to be no need for a vote. I don't see why we can't just summarily ban Smith aka Tobias aka Flight instead of bothering with a vote, which is just a waste of everyone's time. If Smith wishes to appeal the ban, and sees it as unjust, and intends to edit there are already proper channels for doing so e.g. on his talk page (if not revoked), by email (if not revoked), or by Discord. If both his talk page, and email access have been revoked, and he is banned from the Discord server, then tough shit. That's his problem, not our problem. If that's the case then we can just ban him, then Forget It, Move On. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: @ Kiko and Bongolian - my Tobias account was banned without the correct procedure. It was banned with no discussion or vote based on a dubious claim of doxing. I dispute the doxing claim because all I did is link to Ze (aka EK) Wikipedia account. That's all I ever did. I don't consider that doxing. Ze's dubious claim is it was doxing because she had not mentioned/linked her Wikipedia account on RationalWiki. Wikipedia accounts are public. Perhaps the reason Ze acted the way they did is because their Wikipedia account is perm banned for trolling and they're a notorious sockpuppeteer - there's dozens of accounts banned under their name. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Are we going to ignore you doxing Greenrd, Occam, and that you posted Ze's full name which isn't in the Wikipedia link? Get real mate, you can focus on one thing, and there are a dozen more offenses I can list. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: You're a proven liar. Ze's full name is in the Wikipedia url I posted. A mere google search of &quot;Greenrd&quot; ''reveals his full name''. How is that doxing? This stuff is public and Greenrd connects his online pseudonym to his real name on multiple sites. Same for Captain Occam who has identified himself on blogs and forums (his real name) with his pseudonym. None of this is doxxing (revealing private information), but you know that. You've made up a tun of false allegations to smear me with. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Remarkably Smith, what you wrote there is proven lies by the suppression logs already posted on this page... I guess you are full of shite. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2226705</id> <title>RationalWiki:Chicken coop</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2226705"/> <updated>2020-09-15T22:01:23Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Derp */ <hr /> <div>__NEWSECTIONLINK__{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}[[Category:RationalWiki]][[Category:RationalWiki moderation]][[Category:Turdblossoms]] [[Category:Shit articles]] {{hatnote|Not to be confused with the [[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation|moderator noticeboard]].}} {{talkpage |search=yes}} {{shortcut|RW:CC|RW:COOP}} &lt;!-- {{/status|}} --&gt; {{/status|4}} The '''chicken coop''' is for the avoidance, containment and resolution of cases of [[Headless Chicken Mode]] (HCM). Despite the name, this tends to be serious business. This page can be used for reporting cases of administrative abuse (abuse of [[RationalWiki:Sysop guide|sysop]] or [[RationalWiki:Moderators|moderator]] abilities such as blocking, page deletion, or user rights management), general abuse (such as [[troll]]ing, [[wandalism]], and personal attacks), and '''conflicts which cannot be solved through normal talk page discussion''' (such as long-standing edit wars or article content disputes). Please be specific and include links to any relevant discussions, page edits or logs. All editors are welcome to comment on the cases raised here, and to try to reach a consensus on any action to be taken. If no consensus can be reached, and the HCM seems to be escalating, moderators are expected to take some action. However, any serious or permanent solution, such as removal of rights or lengthy ban, requires a community vote here according to the guidelines laid out in our [[RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Voting|Community Standards]]. '''Please''' try to resolve conflicts directly through discussion on other editor's talk pages '''before''' reporting them. It's better to just talk to someone rather than try to drag their name through the mud. If the issue is not conflict resolution, but concerns RationalWiki policies, suggested changes to how things work around here, or similar matters of principle, please post '''[[RationalWiki talk:Community Standards|on the Community Standards talk page]] instead. When presenting a case here, be sure to include ''whom'' you are accusing, what exactly you are accusing them ''of'', some hard ''evidence'', and a brief ''explanation''. Since the sole purpose of the Coop is to resolve these disputes, don't post unrelated or more generalized complaints here — if you do, your posts will be moved off the page. Any vote started within 48 hours of filing will be deleted and you will be blocked. Use {{tl|CoopNotice}} to inform the user in question, so that they have a chance to discuss their actions here. As a final note, if you think this page is a good tactic to apply in gaming the mob into doing your bidding, you may be shocked to see your post archived ''quite'' swiftly. == Ban Smith == I propose to formally ban the user known as &quot;Smith&quot; for the offenses of: # Doxing me and at least 3 other members of this site on various talk pages here and creating at least 2 libellous attack pages on editors here. # Doxing members of this site on [[Kiwi Farms]] and Reddit and elsewhere. # Attempting to bulk delete pages here in [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?oldid=2040594 connection with] a lawsuit and causing disruption in the process along with arguably shifting the legal responsibility for those pages onto the site users who voted to keep them. # Deliberately introducing defamatory material to multiple pages as part of a [http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2019/3393.html dispute] with some crank. # Using this site to carry out a flame war with [[Mikemikev]] and [[Abd]] for several years including impersonating both on several occasions. # Vandalism and trolling with &quot;throwaway&quot; accounts to disrupt site processes on numerous occasions. I'm not going to specify any evidence because the most relevant evidence is suppressed and everyone with suppression access is well aware of the situation already. Just remember voting starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Discussion === :so we are being asked to vote to ban a user few of us actually know who they are with no evidence provided? another coop another farce. [[User:AMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] ([[User talk:AMassiveGay|talk]]) 12:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yes exactly that. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::It's honestly difficult to get the details clear, since a lot was suppressed. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus That said, this discussion remains] as well as the AfD Ze has linked. It appears to be tied to the [[Mikemikev]]/[[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]] drama, the former of whom got banned from RW for... what should frankly be obvious reasons (just read his page lol). I'll be frank, I won't vote in the Smith stuff since I don't know this particular drama shitstorm surrounding those two, but as far as I'm concerned, there is not exactly a great loss to the wiki should they remain gone? -Also just to quickly clarify, this coop isn't about nobs lol-. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Not banning him would kinda send the message that doxing is ok here so my vote is settled already. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Smith's only real activity here was and is meant to further internet grudges and escalate drama. It's caused problems on more than one occasion. Not an editor we need to keep around. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 13:21, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Funny comment considering I've added the most articles of any editor to RationalWiki. Most the people criticising me instead don't add constructive content but use this wiki as a chat-room such as Saloon bar (a place I've virtually never visited).[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: I've never doxed, impersonated or defamed anyone, notice as well no evidence is ever presented for these wild allegations. Ze has engaged in a gaslighting campaign against me for some time and nothing they post about me is accurate. They link to the preliminary judgement ''Kirkegaard v Smith [2019] EWHC 3393 (QB)'' but that has nothing to do with RationalWiki. I was never sued for comments I made on this wiki so claims I have posted libel on this wiki are blatantly false. And I won the lawsuit - Kirkegaard discontinued in May and has to pay my legal fees as the losing party. The preliminary judgement concerned fact versus opinion and ruled my comments were &quot;expressions of opinion and are defamatory&quot; ''however'' the judge pointed out &quot;For the avoidance of doubt, I am not deciding the question of serious harm under s 1 of the Defamation Act 2013.&quot; (the preliminary was to determine whether my comments were fact or opinion not the question of serious harm and I won it on the basis I was arguing my comments were opinions while Kirkegaard incorrectly said they were facts and he was criticised by the judge for taking my comments out of context). Had it gone to full trial or summary judgement (I filed for) a judge would have decided if my comments were either honest opinion (my legal defence) or defamation based on the serious harm question. Kirkegaard discontinued the lawsuit shortly before the judge was going to decide this knowing he/she would almost certainly have ruled my opinions were honestly held rather than defamation. So did I defame him? No. It' s highly misleading to say I did since my comments were upheld as honest opinion which provides a legal defence to defamation (other than truth) and he discontinued the lawsuit knowing the judge in the summary judgement would have ruled my comments did not cause him serious harm. Of course, I don't expect Ze (formerly EK) or Dysk (aka D) to acknowledge this and both of them have spent the past year character assassinating me on Reddit and various wiki-related forums over this lawsuit. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} :You doxed me [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=2073359&amp;oldid=2073357&amp;unhide=1 here] and then a bunch of other times that I could find if you really want and then doxed other editors later and when your comments were suppressed you went to do the same thing on other sites including [[Kiwi Farms]] whose users still follow me around to harrass even now because of it. {{User:Ze/?}} 14:02, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Upon further consideration, I changed my mind. I hadn't quite seen the KiwiFarms shit. Let me be clear here, anyone who is on that site and thinks that posting anything to do with a member here is an A-Okay thing can honestly and directly fuck off. Smith needs as far as I am concerned no more place here. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: I've never doxed Ze - they formerly used their name initials (EK) on RationalWiki which is public knowledge. They renamed their account. They were banned from Wikipedia for trolling using their real name. How is any of this doxing if they've publicly used their real name as their account name on Wikipedia and used their initials on RationalWiki? If you go down that road and define doxing as someone who posts public information then by the same definition Ze (aka EK) has doxed me by posting my name Oliver Smith all over the place.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: LOL. If you want to ban people who post on Kiwi Farms, then ban EK/Ze - she posts there and libelled me as a pedophile on an account. It would be pretty moronic to deny this is her since the account is an SPA dedicated to attacking me and contains the same &quot;feminazi&quot; name description. EK/Ze has been using Kiwi Farms to libel me for months.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} My account initials were never connected to any name until you decided to do that, obviously it was public knowledge after you made it public knowledge which is what you must have wanted. The Zionist Feminazi account on Kiwifarms is obviously not me, and in addition to calling you a pedophile it doxes LGM, posts personal information about Dysk, claims Bongolian is your brother, and calls various peeps here SJWs which tbf is fairly standard for all the posters on that thread. It also engages in severe transphobia against dysk which seems cringe and is ngl a lot like your own very transphobic comments about dysk you made [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&amp;target=Arthur+Kerensa&amp;timestamp=20190426123447 here] which is now suppressed. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :What personal info from me was revealed? DM may be appropriate. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account on Kiwifarms is Ze who calls herself a feminazi here. Ze and Dysk claim to be siblings in real life. The &quot;Zionist Feminist&quot; account on Kiwi Farms libeled me as a pedophile and it is ''only'' Ze/Dysk that repeats the libel on that account. Ze is also involved with Mikemikev drama and note the only other thread the Feminazi account on KF posted in is Mike's. There are plenty of other evidences that account is Ze.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: On Kiwi Farms there is talk that Ze and Dysk are the same person. On his Reddit account, Dysk posted several times he is in actual fact Ze. Does anyone know what all this is about, or is it an elaborate hoax? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::It's a well known fact nothing I post on Reddit is true, I have no idea why people still take me seriously there. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::&lt;s&gt;I disagree with a ban of Smith,&lt;/s&gt; I personally don't have an opinion either way. I'd say that a stern admonishment along with a 2 way interaction ban from contacting Ze (and vice-versa) &lt;s&gt;should be sufficient in my opinion&lt;/s&gt; would be a good idea in the event that Smith is not banned. Additionally, a preemptive sysoprevoke may be in order, especially with Ze active on the site. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Kiko you are a moron, if you want to comment, make an effort to understand the situation. You want an interaction ban for someone who doxed several editors? What a joke. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Cultivating this many sockpuppets=== I don't know, man. Sockpuppetry is not explicitly against our rules. In fact having sock accounts has largely been condoned in the past. But I can't help but feel that this Oliver D. Smith business has taken it to a whole other level. It may be worth it to ban them simply because they're more trouble than they're worth. We don't need to embroil RationalWiki in a conflict spanning half the internet, just for the sake of a single user. The scale of this is... disturbing.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 18:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't see the point in any of these debates. Smith and Ze have been involved in an online slap-fight for over a year its on Kiwi Farms, discord, Reddit etc. It's impossible to have both these people on the same website. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I'd be inclined to support banning Smith just based on the scale of the drama they're embroiled in. All sorts of websites and sockpuppets and angry basement-dwellers plus at least one court case. It's not worth it to allow any chance of all that garbage spilling onto RW. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:07, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::If you look up the Wikipedia clusterfuck, EK (Ze) was indef b&amp; as a sockpuppet of Dysk (indef b&amp; as either a suspected troll or irredeemable PITA). I'd provide links, but I can't be arsed with accusations of doxxing. This whole thing is weird AF. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 20:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Ze was originally blocked due to a technical link between us, this was overturned (for Ze) by a Wikimedia steward, based on showing identity documents. Terms of the unblock followed the WP:CLEANSTART guidelines and the original account remains locked. However, despite this I personally remain banned from all Wikipedia projects, for trolling, and ban evasion. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::We don't need the identity documents, obviously, but a link to the ruling would be nice-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::This was largely conducted in private on Wikimedia IRC, you will have to make do with the rather limited WP:AN ruling linked to my &quot;main&quot; Wikipedia account. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) == Ban Abd == I can't remember exactly what this guy did but allegedly trolling and doxing were involved. I think he created a blog to attack various editors after that and the validity of what he wrote there is disputed. Like Smith he was unilaterally banned by a sysop on the basis of doxing without a coop vote, so in the interests of fairness we will confirm this ban too at the same time. Remember that the vote starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority to pass. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Disscussion === Seems like a wise idea, poking through history, it seems his community also was responsible for raiding RW or something? Anyway, that blog of his was in the abuse filter at some point if I'm not mistaken. Unlike Smith, I do think I can be confident in saying that blocking Abd is a good idea. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I mean in terms of damage Smith did more than Abd but yes both should be banned and this is more about procedure since both have been treated as banned for a long time and had hundreds of accounts blocked for ban evasion. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:26, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Abd Lomax is a threat to RationalWiki user's privacy and was rightly banned. He threatened to sue David Gerard and RationalWiki, he posted this on his website coldfusioncommunity in 2018 (if you want I can link to this). He later dropped this idea and filed a lawsuit against Wikipedia for banning him. His lawsuit against Wikipedia was dismissed with prejudice, but Abd claimed in this lawsuit that RationalWiki had 'defamed' him. On Abd's coldfusioncommunity website there are 50 negative articles dedicated to 'researching' RationalWiki editors such as Smith and their alleged sock-puppets. ::Lomax also doxed some RationalWiki staff on his website and some of that information is still live. Fuzzycatpotato has been doxed on Abd Lomax's website his real name and house address has been exposed. Ze is a close friend of Abd Lomax, indeed Lomax wrote on Reddit a few months ago he considers ZE like a &quot;daughter&quot;. Ze also has a discord &quot;The Treehouse&quot; and she invited Abd to join it, and made him a mod there. D/Ze have been in an online slapfight with Smith for a year spilling over multiple websites. We need someone totally uninvolved with this Abd or Smith drama to solve these matters. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 18:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I've only interacted with Abd once, but he did [http://coldfusioncommunity.net/anglo-pyramidologist/darryl-l-smith/skeptic-from-britain/comment-trolling/verifier/ post briefly about me on his site] (he did not doxx me) which brought it to my notice. He does seem to post a lot about RW stuff on his webpage. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Yeah well your like me anonymous so Abd can't get you but he tries to get hold of editors real life names, then he publishes it on his website. Does fuzzy know Abd has published his personal details? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I would vote Aye to a ban of Abd, but I've not been on here long enough. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ==Vote to only rehash coops for contentious or irregular old bans...if the users actually come back and contest or try to make edits== ===For=== #[[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # Smith last edited today, Abd alleged edited last a few weeks ago, both users have been constantly active for many years in spite of their bans, and both users are currently and always have contested their bans, but yes absolutely this is a good idea in general. {{User:Ze/?}} 13:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) #[[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|&lt;sup&gt;&quot;Life is short and (insert adjective)&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 15:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 15:53, 15 September 2020 (UTC) #Ban evasion is automatically cause for ban anyway.{{User:Summa Atheologica/sig}} 18:25, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Against=== ===Derp=== * I would settle for blocking my account on a voluntary basis i.e. post this user has decided to quit. Would I show up again? No. Because this time there was actually a Coop discussion rather than the irregular procedure of banning me via discord with no consensus or discussion. I returned to this wiki to add articles because there was no proper ban, rather, it was two problematic admins (Ze and Dysk) who banned me based on dubious allegations of doxing (I've rebutted these allegations above). There is also a repeated false allegation I libelled Ze or Dysk; yet last time I looked they're the people viciously smearing me on multiple websites as a child abuser and pedophile among many other outrageous claims. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 18:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) [[File:Tobias on kiwifarms 2019.png|thumb|500px|Smith calling the RationalWiki mods and sysops &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot;]] Smith you said after you wrote banned as [[User:Tobias]] that you would never return while calling the mods and sysops here &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot; and saying a highly transphobic homophobic, and ableist [[Kiwi Farms]] thread was true (See the image). Why are you back. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I agree, I think that Ze asks a fair question. That said I will add that I'm not in favour of anything other than a simple 2 way interaction ban on both Ze and Smith. Additionally, I think that Ze should be admonished for misuse of sysop. Everyone makes mistakes, but mistakes like that should never be repeated again. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::There's no transphobia, homophobia, and ableism in any of my comments on KF or anywhere else (not that I actually care). Furthermore it's pretty stupid to use that as a guilt by association fallacy when we both know you (Ze) are the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account I was responding to in that thread who was libelling me as a pedophile. To anyone who wants to actually check that full thread to get the context rather than believe Ze's quote-mines - notice my comment in the screenshot is only responding to &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; after I was provoked. And note how the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account identically matches Ze's posts and writing style, for example take the following comment they posted on Kiwi Farms: {{quotebox|May 18, 2019 Zionist Feminazi maybe the doxing has something to do with how her name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account and the harassment has something to do with how u went onto her talk page and discord to post threats and weird shit about the things u would do unless she redacted a wikipediocracy post to not mention ur insane brother who spends his time spamming reddit?}} To those familiar with Ze aka EK's writing style will know their usage of &quot;ur&quot;. Not only that but it matches identical claims they make here such as the dubious claims of doxing and how her account &quot;name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account&quot; (we've seen that same claim made above by Ze). Add this to the fact EK calls herself as a feminazi and elsewhere has claimed to support zionism plus that user only was posting in the RationalWiki and Mikemikev thread specifically to attack me -is rather conclusive its the same person. How many other people who support zionism and call themself a feminazi with the same writing style to Ze are there? I'm not sure how much more evidence other mods here would need. The fact they are denying this is them shows how highly deceptive they are. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::The Zionist Feminazi user on Kiwifarms is a former close friend of mine, I can confirm it's not Ze. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:32, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I would vote Aye, but 1) I'm not an eligible voter and 2) I think this proposal is ill concieved and we'd be better off if we did what WMF wikis do and implement a procedure for appealing bans that does not involve sockpuppetery. The problem with this proposal is that it encourages people who are banned to evade their bans. Hence invalidating their meaning and purpose. Not good. So if I were an eligible voter, I'd vote Nay, we're better off with the status quo, which at least wouldn't create a precedent that any ban retrospectively deemed &quot;invalid&quot; may simply be disregarded without consequence. This isn't an Anarchy, or a battleground. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:50, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't even understand whey this is a vote. Abd is a certified doxer. I'm not about to give Smith the benefit of the doubt, particularly if there is confirmation that Smith is a doxer. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Either way I think that Smith has admitted to being a sockpuppet of [[User:Tobias]] who has already been indefinitely banned. So I fully agree with you, on the basis of that evidence alone, there appears to be no need for a vote. I don't see why we can't just summarily ban Smith aka Tobias aka Flight instead of bothering with a vote, which is just a waste of everyone's time. If Smith wishes to appeal the ban, and sees it as unjust, and intends to edit there are already proper channels for doing so e.g. on his talk page (if not revoked), by email (if not revoked), or by Discord. If both his talk page, and email access have been revoked, and he is banned from the Discord server, then tough shit. That's his problem, not our problem. If that's the case then we can just ban him, then Forget It, Move On. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: @ Kiko and Bongolian - my Tobias account was banned without the correct procedure. It was banned with no discussion or vote based on a dubious claim of doxing. I dispute the doxing claim because all I did is link to Ze (aka EK) Wikipedia account. That's all I ever did. I don't consider that doxing. Ze's dubious claim is it was doxing because she had not mentioned/linked her Wikipedia account on RationalWiki. Wikipedia accounts are public. Perhaps the reason Ze acted the way they did is because their Wikipedia account is perm banned for trolling and they're a notorious sockpuppeteer - there's dozens of accounts banned under their name. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Are we going to ignore you doxing Greenrd, Occam, and that you posted Ze's full name which isn't in the Wikipedia link? Get real mate, you can focus on one thing, and there are a dozen more offenses I can list. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: You're a proven liar. Ze's full name is in the Wikipedia url I posted. A mere google search of &quot;Greenrd&quot; ''reveals his full name''. How is that doxing? This stuff is public and Greenrd connects his online pseudonym to his real name on multiple sites. Same for Captain Occam who has identified himself on blogs and forums (his real name) with his pseudonym. None of this is doxxing (revealing private information), but you know that. You've made up a tun of false allegations to smear me with. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Remarkably Smith, what you wrote there is proven lies by the suppression logs already posted on this page... I guess you are full of shite. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2226703</id> <title>RationalWiki:Chicken coop</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2226703"/> <updated>2020-09-15T21:58:29Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Cultivating this many sockpuppets */ <hr /> <div>__NEWSECTIONLINK__{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}[[Category:RationalWiki]][[Category:RationalWiki moderation]][[Category:Turdblossoms]] [[Category:Shit articles]] {{hatnote|Not to be confused with the [[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation|moderator noticeboard]].}} {{talkpage |search=yes}} {{shortcut|RW:CC|RW:COOP}} &lt;!-- {{/status|}} --&gt; {{/status|4}} The '''chicken coop''' is for the avoidance, containment and resolution of cases of [[Headless Chicken Mode]] (HCM). Despite the name, this tends to be serious business. This page can be used for reporting cases of administrative abuse (abuse of [[RationalWiki:Sysop guide|sysop]] or [[RationalWiki:Moderators|moderator]] abilities such as blocking, page deletion, or user rights management), general abuse (such as [[troll]]ing, [[wandalism]], and personal attacks), and '''conflicts which cannot be solved through normal talk page discussion''' (such as long-standing edit wars or article content disputes). Please be specific and include links to any relevant discussions, page edits or logs. All editors are welcome to comment on the cases raised here, and to try to reach a consensus on any action to be taken. If no consensus can be reached, and the HCM seems to be escalating, moderators are expected to take some action. However, any serious or permanent solution, such as removal of rights or lengthy ban, requires a community vote here according to the guidelines laid out in our [[RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Voting|Community Standards]]. '''Please''' try to resolve conflicts directly through discussion on other editor's talk pages '''before''' reporting them. It's better to just talk to someone rather than try to drag their name through the mud. If the issue is not conflict resolution, but concerns RationalWiki policies, suggested changes to how things work around here, or similar matters of principle, please post '''[[RationalWiki talk:Community Standards|on the Community Standards talk page]] instead. When presenting a case here, be sure to include ''whom'' you are accusing, what exactly you are accusing them ''of'', some hard ''evidence'', and a brief ''explanation''. Since the sole purpose of the Coop is to resolve these disputes, don't post unrelated or more generalized complaints here — if you do, your posts will be moved off the page. Any vote started within 48 hours of filing will be deleted and you will be blocked. Use {{tl|CoopNotice}} to inform the user in question, so that they have a chance to discuss their actions here. As a final note, if you think this page is a good tactic to apply in gaming the mob into doing your bidding, you may be shocked to see your post archived ''quite'' swiftly. == Ban Smith == I propose to formally ban the user known as &quot;Smith&quot; for the offenses of: # Doxing me and at least 3 other members of this site on various talk pages here and creating at least 2 libellous attack pages on editors here. # Doxing members of this site on [[Kiwi Farms]] and Reddit and elsewhere. # Attempting to bulk delete pages here in [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?oldid=2040594 connection with] a lawsuit and causing disruption in the process along with arguably shifting the legal responsibility for those pages onto the site users who voted to keep them. # Deliberately introducing defamatory material to multiple pages as part of a [http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2019/3393.html dispute] with some crank. # Using this site to carry out a flame war with [[Mikemikev]] and [[Abd]] for several years including impersonating both on several occasions. # Vandalism and trolling with &quot;throwaway&quot; accounts to disrupt site processes on numerous occasions. I'm not going to specify any evidence because the most relevant evidence is suppressed and everyone with suppression access is well aware of the situation already. Just remember voting starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Discussion === :so we are being asked to vote to ban a user few of us actually know who they are with no evidence provided? another coop another farce. [[User:AMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] ([[User talk:AMassiveGay|talk]]) 12:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yes exactly that. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::It's honestly difficult to get the details clear, since a lot was suppressed. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus That said, this discussion remains] as well as the AfD Ze has linked. It appears to be tied to the [[Mikemikev]]/[[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]] drama, the former of whom got banned from RW for... what should frankly be obvious reasons (just read his page lol). I'll be frank, I won't vote in the Smith stuff since I don't know this particular drama shitstorm surrounding those two, but as far as I'm concerned, there is not exactly a great loss to the wiki should they remain gone? -Also just to quickly clarify, this coop isn't about nobs lol-. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Not banning him would kinda send the message that doxing is ok here so my vote is settled already. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Smith's only real activity here was and is meant to further internet grudges and escalate drama. It's caused problems on more than one occasion. Not an editor we need to keep around. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 13:21, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Funny comment considering I've added the most articles of any editor to RationalWiki. Most the people criticising me instead don't add constructive content but use this wiki as a chat-room such as Saloon bar (a place I've virtually never visited).[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: I've never doxed, impersonated or defamed anyone, notice as well no evidence is ever presented for these wild allegations. Ze has engaged in a gaslighting campaign against me for some time and nothing they post about me is accurate. They link to the preliminary judgement ''Kirkegaard v Smith [2019] EWHC 3393 (QB)'' but that has nothing to do with RationalWiki. I was never sued for comments I made on this wiki so claims I have posted libel on this wiki are blatantly false. And I won the lawsuit - Kirkegaard discontinued in May and has to pay my legal fees as the losing party. The preliminary judgement concerned fact versus opinion and ruled my comments were &quot;expressions of opinion and are defamatory&quot; ''however'' the judge pointed out &quot;For the avoidance of doubt, I am not deciding the question of serious harm under s 1 of the Defamation Act 2013.&quot; (the preliminary was to determine whether my comments were fact or opinion not the question of serious harm and I won it on the basis I was arguing my comments were opinions while Kirkegaard incorrectly said they were facts and he was criticised by the judge for taking my comments out of context). Had it gone to full trial or summary judgement (I filed for) a judge would have decided if my comments were either honest opinion (my legal defence) or defamation based on the serious harm question. Kirkegaard discontinued the lawsuit shortly before the judge was going to decide this knowing he/she would almost certainly have ruled my opinions were honestly held rather than defamation. So did I defame him? No. It' s highly misleading to say I did since my comments were upheld as honest opinion which provides a legal defence to defamation (other than truth) and he discontinued the lawsuit knowing the judge in the summary judgement would have ruled my comments did not cause him serious harm. Of course, I don't expect Ze (formerly EK) or Dysk (aka D) to acknowledge this and both of them have spent the past year character assassinating me on Reddit and various wiki-related forums over this lawsuit. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} :You doxed me [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=2073359&amp;oldid=2073357&amp;unhide=1 here] and then a bunch of other times that I could find if you really want and then doxed other editors later and when your comments were suppressed you went to do the same thing on other sites including [[Kiwi Farms]] whose users still follow me around to harrass even now because of it. {{User:Ze/?}} 14:02, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Upon further consideration, I changed my mind. I hadn't quite seen the KiwiFarms shit. Let me be clear here, anyone who is on that site and thinks that posting anything to do with a member here is an A-Okay thing can honestly and directly fuck off. Smith needs as far as I am concerned no more place here. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: I've never doxed Ze - they formerly used their name initials (EK) on RationalWiki which is public knowledge. They renamed their account. They were banned from Wikipedia for trolling using their real name. How is any of this doxing if they've publicly used their real name as their account name on Wikipedia and used their initials on RationalWiki? If you go down that road and define doxing as someone who posts public information then by the same definition Ze (aka EK) has doxed me by posting my name Oliver Smith all over the place.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: LOL. If you want to ban people who post on Kiwi Farms, then ban EK/Ze - she posts there and libelled me as a pedophile on an account. It would be pretty moronic to deny this is her since the account is an SPA dedicated to attacking me and contains the same &quot;feminazi&quot; name description. EK/Ze has been using Kiwi Farms to libel me for months.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} My account initials were never connected to any name until you decided to do that, obviously it was public knowledge after you made it public knowledge which is what you must have wanted. The Zionist Feminazi account on Kiwifarms is obviously not me, and in addition to calling you a pedophile it doxes LGM, posts personal information about Dysk, claims Bongolian is your brother, and calls various peeps here SJWs which tbf is fairly standard for all the posters on that thread. It also engages in severe transphobia against dysk which seems cringe and is ngl a lot like your own very transphobic comments about dysk you made [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&amp;target=Arthur+Kerensa&amp;timestamp=20190426123447 here] which is now suppressed. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :What personal info from me was revealed? DM may be appropriate. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account on Kiwifarms is Ze who calls herself a feminazi here. Ze and Dysk claim to be siblings in real life. The &quot;Zionist Feminist&quot; account on Kiwi Farms libeled me as a pedophile and it is ''only'' Ze/Dysk that repeats the libel on that account. Ze is also involved with Mikemikev drama and note the only other thread the Feminazi account on KF posted in is Mike's. There are plenty of other evidences that account is Ze.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: On Kiwi Farms there is talk that Ze and Dysk are the same person. On his Reddit account, Dysk posted several times he is in actual fact Ze. Does anyone know what all this is about, or is it an elaborate hoax? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::It's a well known fact nothing I post on Reddit is true, I have no idea why people still take me seriously there. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::&lt;s&gt;I disagree with a ban of Smith,&lt;/s&gt; I personally don't have an opinion either way. I'd say that a stern admonishment along with a 2 way interaction ban from contacting Ze (and vice-versa) &lt;s&gt;should be sufficient in my opinion&lt;/s&gt; would be a good idea in the event that Smith is not banned. Additionally, a preemptive sysoprevoke may be in order, especially with Ze active on the site. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Kiko you are a moron, if you want to comment, make an effort to understand the situation. You want an interaction ban for someone who doxed several editors? What a joke. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Cultivating this many sockpuppets=== I don't know, man. Sockpuppetry is not explicitly against our rules. In fact having sock accounts has largely been condoned in the past. But I can't help but feel that this Oliver D. Smith business has taken it to a whole other level. It may be worth it to ban them simply because they're more trouble than they're worth. We don't need to embroil RationalWiki in a conflict spanning half the internet, just for the sake of a single user. The scale of this is... disturbing.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 18:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't see the point in any of these debates. Smith and Ze have been involved in an online slap-fight for over a year its on Kiwi Farms, discord, Reddit etc. It's impossible to have both these people on the same website. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I'd be inclined to support banning Smith just based on the scale of the drama they're embroiled in. All sorts of websites and sockpuppets and angry basement-dwellers plus at least one court case. It's not worth it to allow any chance of all that garbage spilling onto RW. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:07, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::If you look up the Wikipedia clusterfuck, EK (Ze) was indef b&amp; as a sockpuppet of Dysk (indef b&amp; as either a suspected troll or irredeemable PITA). I'd provide links, but I can't be arsed with accusations of doxxing. This whole thing is weird AF. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 20:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Ze was originally blocked due to a technical link between us, this was overturned (for Ze) by a Wikimedia steward, based on showing identity documents. Terms of the unblock followed the WP:CLEANSTART guidelines and the original account remains locked. However, despite this I personally remain banned from all Wikipedia projects, for trolling, and ban evasion. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::We don't need the identity documents, obviously, but a link to the ruling would be nice-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::This was largely conducted in private on Wikimedia IRC, you will have to make do with the rather limited WP:AN ruling linked to my &quot;main&quot; Wikipedia account. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) == Ban Abd == I can't remember exactly what this guy did but allegedly trolling and doxing were involved. I think he created a blog to attack various editors after that and the validity of what he wrote there is disputed. Like Smith he was unilaterally banned by a sysop on the basis of doxing without a coop vote, so in the interests of fairness we will confirm this ban too at the same time. Remember that the vote starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority to pass. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Disscussion === Seems like a wise idea, poking through history, it seems his community also was responsible for raiding RW or something? Anyway, that blog of his was in the abuse filter at some point if I'm not mistaken. Unlike Smith, I do think I can be confident in saying that blocking Abd is a good idea. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I mean in terms of damage Smith did more than Abd but yes both should be banned and this is more about procedure since both have been treated as banned for a long time and had hundreds of accounts blocked for ban evasion. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:26, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Abd Lomax is a threat to RationalWiki user's privacy and was rightly banned. He threatened to sue David Gerard and RationalWiki, he posted this on his website coldfusioncommunity in 2018 (if you want I can link to this). He later dropped this idea and filed a lawsuit against Wikipedia for banning him. His lawsuit against Wikipedia was dismissed with prejudice, but Abd claimed in this lawsuit that RationalWiki had 'defamed' him. On Abd's coldfusioncommunity website there are 50 negative articles dedicated to 'researching' RationalWiki editors such as Smith and their alleged sock-puppets. ::Lomax also doxed some RationalWiki staff on his website and some of that information is still live. Fuzzycatpotato has been doxed on Abd Lomax's website his real name and house address has been exposed. Ze is a close friend of Abd Lomax, indeed Lomax wrote on Reddit a few months ago he considers ZE like a &quot;daughter&quot;. Ze also has a discord &quot;The Treehouse&quot; and she invited Abd to join it, and made him a mod there. D/Ze have been in an online slapfight with Smith for a year spilling over multiple websites. We need someone totally uninvolved with this Abd or Smith drama to solve these matters. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 18:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I've only interacted with Abd once, but he did [http://coldfusioncommunity.net/anglo-pyramidologist/darryl-l-smith/skeptic-from-britain/comment-trolling/verifier/ post briefly about me on his site] (he did not doxx me) which brought it to my notice. He does seem to post a lot about RW stuff on his webpage. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Yeah well your like me anonymous so Abd can't get you but he tries to get hold of editors real life names, then he publishes it on his website. Does fuzzy know Abd has published his personal details? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I would vote Aye to a ban of Abd, but I've not been on here long enough. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ==Vote to only rehash coops for contentious or irregular old bans...if the users actually come back and contest or try to make edits== ===For=== #[[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # Smith last edited today, Abd alleged edited last a few weeks ago, both users have been constantly active for many years in spite of their bans, and both users are currently and always have contested their bans, but yes absolutely this is a good idea in general. {{User:Ze/?}} 13:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) #[[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|&lt;sup&gt;&quot;Life is short and (insert adjective)&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 15:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 15:53, 15 September 2020 (UTC) #Ban evasion is automatically cause for ban anyway.{{User:Summa Atheologica/sig}} 18:25, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Against=== ===Derp=== * I would settle for blocking my account on a voluntary basis i.e. post this user has decided to quit. Would I show up again? No. Because this time there was actually a Coop discussion rather than the irregular procedure of banning me via discord with no consensus or discussion. I returned to this wiki to add articles because there was no proper ban, rather, it was two problematic admins (Ze and Dysk) who banned me based on dubious allegations of doxing (I've rebutted these allegations above). There is also a repeated false allegation I libelled Ze or Dysk; yet last time I looked they're the people viciously smearing me on multiple websites as a child abuser and pedophile among many other outrageous claims. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 18:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) [[File:Tobias on kiwifarms 2019.png|thumb|500px|Smith calling the RationalWiki mods and sysops &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot;]] Smith you said after you wrote banned as [[User:Tobias]] that you would never return while calling the mods and sysops here &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot; and saying a highly transphobic homophobic, and ableist [[Kiwi Farms]] thread was true (See the image). Why are you back. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I agree, I think that Ze asks a fair question. That said I will add that I'm not in favour of anything other than a simple 2 way interaction ban on both Ze and Smith. Additionally, I think that Ze should be admonished for misuse of sysop. Everyone makes mistakes, but mistakes like that should never be repeated again. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::There's no transphobia, homophobia, and ableism in any of my comments on KF or anywhere else (not that I actually care). Furthermore it's pretty stupid to use that as a guilt by association fallacy when we both know you (Ze) are the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account I was responding to in that thread who was libelling me as a pedophile. To anyone who wants to actually check that full thread to get the context rather than believe Ze's quote-mines - notice my comment in the screenshot is only responding to &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; after I was provoked. And note how the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account identically matches Ze's posts and writing style, for example take the following comment they posted on Kiwi Farms: {{quotebox|May 18, 2019 Zionist Feminazi maybe the doxing has something to do with how her name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account and the harassment has something to do with how u went onto her talk page and discord to post threats and weird shit about the things u would do unless she redacted a wikipediocracy post to not mention ur insane brother who spends his time spamming reddit?}} To those familiar with Ze aka EK's writing style will know their usage of &quot;ur&quot;. Not only that but it matches identical claims they make here such as the dubious claims of doxing and how her account &quot;name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account&quot; (we've seen that same claim made above by Ze). Add this to the fact EK calls herself as a feminazi and elsewhere has claimed to support zionism plus that user only was posting in the RationalWiki and Mikemikev thread specifically to attack me -is rather conclusive its the same person. How many other people who support zionism and call themself a feminazi with the same writing style to Ze are there? I'm not sure how much more evidence other mods here would need. The fact they are denying this is them shows how highly deceptive they are. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::The Zionist Feminazi user on Kiwifarms is a former close friend of mine, I can confirm it's not Ze. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:32, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I would vote Aye, but 1) I'm not an eligible voter and 2) I think this proposal is ill concieved and we'd be better off if we did what WMF wikis do and implement a procedure for appealing bans that does not involve sockpuppetery. The problem with this proposal is that it encourages people who are banned to evade their bans. Hence invalidating their meaning and purpose. Not good. So if I were an eligible voter, I'd vote Nay, we're better off with the status quo, which at least wouldn't create a precedent that any ban retrospectively deemed &quot;invalid&quot; may simply be disregarded without consequence. This isn't an Anarchy, or a battleground. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:50, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't even understand whey this is a vote. Abd is a certified doxer. I'm not about to give Smith the benefit of the doubt, particularly if there is confirmation that Smith is a doxer. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Either way I think that Smith has admitted to being a sockpuppet of [[User:Tobias]] who has already been indefinitely banned. So I fully agree with you, on the basis of that evidence alone, there appears to be no need for a vote. I don't see why we can't just summarily ban Smith aka Tobias aka Flight instead of bothering with a vote, which is just a waste of everyone's time. If Smith wishes to appeal the ban, and sees it as unjust, and intends to edit there are already proper channels for doing so e.g. on his talk page (if not revoked), by email (if not revoked), or by Discord. If both his talk page, and email access have been revoked, and he is banned from the Discord server, then tough shit. That's his problem, not our problem. If that's the case then we can just ban him, then Forget It, Move On. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: @ Kiko and Bongolian - my Tobias account was banned without the correct procedure. It was banned with no discussion or vote based on a dubious claim of doxing. I dispute the doxing claim because all I did is link to Ze (aka EK) Wikipedia account. That's all I ever did. I don't consider that doxing. Ze's dubious claim is it was doxing because she had not mentioned/linked her Wikipedia account on RationalWiki. Wikipedia accounts are public. Perhaps the reason Ze acted the way they did is because their Wikipedia account is perm banned for trolling and they're a notorious sockpuppeteer - there's dozens of accounts banned under their name. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Are we going to ignore you doxing Greenrd, Occam, and that you posted Ze's full name which isn't in the Wikipedia link? Get real mate, you can focus on one thing, and there are a dozen more offenses I can list. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: You're a proven liar. Ze's full name is in the Wikipedia url I posted. A mere google search of &quot;Greenrd&quot; ''reveals his full name''. How is that doxing? This stuff is public and Greenrd connects his online pseudonym to his real name on multiple sites. Same for Captain Occam who has identified himself on blogs and forums (his real name) with his pseudonym. None of this is doxxing (revealing private information), but you know that. You've made up a tun of false allegations to smear me with. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&diff=2226702</id> <title>RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&diff=2226702"/> <updated>2020-09-15T21:52:30Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Was I ever banned from this wiki? */ <hr /> <div>{{mod talk header}} &lt;center&gt;[[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive_List|Archives for this page]]&lt;/center&gt; {{#tag:inputbox| bgcolor=transparent type=fulltext prefix=RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation break=yes width={{{width|60}}} searchbuttonlabel={{{label|Search the archives}}} }} [[File:Moderator.jpg|thumb]] __TOC__ &lt;!-- write below this line --&gt; == Requesting input on CS interpretation == Okay, I'll just keep this short. As a part of [[RW:BLOCK]], we forbid bigoted material being posted on the wiki, which warrants a block. To this end, I've attempted earlier today to clean up three Saloon threads because two BONs inserted blockable crap as threads (a Comicsgate website and a [[Ludwig von Mises Institute]] article that goes &quot;racism doesn't exist, but hating on men does&quot;) and the third one being a Steven Crowder video on how Trump deserves a Noble Peace Prize. I'm not here to ask about that last one, given it was duplicitous anyway. Rather, Hastur appears to have restored the other two, saying &quot;if I don't like it, just ignore it&quot;. What I am in effect asking here is that in the event that we block someone for posting bigoted crap, is it okay to then also ''remove'' the bigoted crap. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 19:57, 10 September 2020 (UTC) :I would argue that this particular BoN's posts don't meet the standard of what is block/removal worthy. If we can't handle a link to the Ludwig von Mises institute, we have a problem--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 20:20, 10 September 2020 (UTC) ::Agreed. {{User:GR/sig}} 20:21, 10 September 2020 (UTC) :::I am content with just placing the troll posts in a nice &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{collapse}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; block. —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:15, 10 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I disagree with the use of the collapse template. I think its use ought to be discouraged--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:16, 10 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Yeah, there is an excessive use with the collapse template. It should be used conservatively and, instead, it's used all the time. {{User:GR/sig}} 23:28, 10 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::We shouldn't be seen as giving a platform to people who say, &quot;racism doesn't exist but hating on men does&quot;. That definitely should have been collapsed. Don't worry about using the collapse template too much. If crap needs to be collapsed, collapse it. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 00:12, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Or don't be so stubborn and just revert it. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 00:30, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::: Or literally don't revert or remove it because the talk page policy states you may only remove &quot;obviously vile trolling&quot; and &quot;spam&quot;. Brx is right. In fact, nearly everything brx has said for months is right. What the fuck. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 03:38, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Yeah fuck man, what the fuck? Brx has gone from that vile bastard who shits on your lawn during their morning jog to a valued voice. It just shows how low some people have dragged this site when Brx becomes reasonable. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 04:04, 11 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::It's not my fault your lawn is so poorly maintained it looks like a gas station toilet--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 04:11, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::My God...next thing you know Satan will sin the Nobel Peace Prize!!! [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:26, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :I protected the Saloon Bar for 9 hours. I don't mind him spamming us a few times a week but clearly this troll must have gotten a particularly mean wedgie from the boys at school today, and feels the need to compensate for his insecurities extra hard. --[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:42, 11 September 2020 (UTC) ::Oh, so that's who Hastur is. I had wondered. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 05:57, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::That's Brx alright. Funny he used to be such an annoyance but now I kinda like him. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:20, 11 September 2020 (UTC) ::::You could also just clean up the shit on the floor, instead of letting it sit there and fester. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 02:30, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Oxyaena already being hostile/aggressive after getting sysop back. Hopefully the people who voted to give her sysop back will rein her in (sarcasm: they won't and they don't care). {{User:GR/sig}} 02:57, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I don't see how that's aggressive or hostile, but okay. It's just blunt, but, anyways, as always: {{dftt}}. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 03:21, 13 September 2020 (UTC) == Editwarring on the [[Leo Gura]] page == It's happening between two sysops (Machina and HairlessCat), and it has been going on for days now. Request input by the mods. {{User:GR/sig}} 00:48, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :Agree. We've already discussed on the talk page how it needs to be edited to be less verbose and that being a justified measure for change (I said I would edit it tomorrow). Although, I suspect Machina's changes are indeed more ideological in nature and not related to the prose at all, which'd be why Machina's not waiting a tad. [[User:HairlessCat|HairlessCat]] ([[User talk:HairlessCat|talk]]) 00:59, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::OK - I have protected the page as it is now. Hash it out on the talkpage please. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 01:18, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::{{ping|Machina}} You might want to respond to this here. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 01:22, 13 September 2020 (UTC) The additions I removed were more about legitimizing woo or crank ideas, so they weren't relevant to the topic. It's not important what drugs he took or what he felt as a result, especially since the only evidence for any of his claims is personal experience from drug use. The segment on the incompleteness theorems seems like a bid to led Leo's interpretation credibility even though the article linked mentions that such an interpretation is incorrect (in that case why include it). The study linked for psychedelics increasing rebellion is not what the study says at all. If it were Deepak I would slightly understand since he is a big name who literally influences far more than Leo. But that page rightly calls him out for what he is. The edits on the Leo page seem like they were either written by Leo or some apologist to give him some credibility when all he has is personal experience for his woo. The edits I took out were irrelevant to the whole topic, if others BESIDES Hairless feel that this is in error I will side with that judgment, especially if it's the mods. Otherwise I see no reason to admit I was wrong. I mean even the callout on the talk page shows Hairless is too close to the subject matter to give a clear view of it.[[User:Machina|Machina]] ([[User talk:Machina|talk]]) 02:26, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :A person having a mental breakdown that stops them from believing in woo is pretty important, and the Godel quote is actually meant to show where he is mistaken on that matter. This isn't a conspiracy to whitewash the page. I'll fix the prose evening ETC. On the sixteenth of September once things cool down. [[User:HairlessCat|HairlessCat]] ([[User talk:HairlessCat|talk]]) 14:42, 13 September 2020 (UTC) == Request for IP suppression in Edits == I mistakenly edited a page without logging in properly and left my IP on a page. Is it possible to delete it?--[[User:Nessundorma|Nessundorma]] ([[User talk:Nessundorma|talk]]) 03:07, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :Yes, but I think you are making it worse by notifying us. Otherwise it would just be a random IP editing a certain page and that be it. Unless there is a significant privacy risk, I don't think the mods or techs will heed your request, though. {{User:GR/sig}} 03:10, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::Easy fix. Just post the edit and we can make it like it never existed. Or email it if you want to take an extra measure of privacy--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 03:17, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Yeah, if you really want it removed, it's best to email the IP address to a moderator to make it less obvious, but if for some reason someone is watching recent edits, they might be able to figure it out anyway. Don't forget the [[Streisand effect]]. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 03:35, 13 September 2020 (UTC) == Raven == I request an interaction ban, he's going out of his way to troll me and, as per the terms of my probation, am requesting moderator assistance because I feel I can't handle this in a civil manner. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:13, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Saloon_bar&amp;curid=77683&amp;diff=2225557&amp;oldid=2225555 It would help if you didn't try to troll him]--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:15, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::{{dftt}} &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:18, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Not a mod, but Hastur, that doesn't really constitute &quot;trolling.&quot; Oxy is trying to abide by the terms of her probation. Grow up, please. [[User:RoninMacbeth|RoninMacbeth]] ([[User talk:RoninMacbeth|talk]]) 05:21, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::{{ec}}[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:Oxyaena&amp;curid=201740&amp;diff=2225636&amp;oldid=2224122 Why did you remove this?.] Anyways, de-escalation is one thing, but it's really the least we can ask of you to not try and needle Raven and then get offended when he responds in kind--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:22, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I asked why you egg Raven on, you said &quot;because it amuses me.&quot; You're no better than him. Get off your high horse please. You're actively hindering efforts to deescalate things. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:23, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I offer my observations. I derive amusement from all sorts of discourse. Adding commentary to your interactions with Godless Raven is much like adding commentary to WIGO:CP--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:28, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Grow up. Your &quot;observations&quot; only serve to inflame tensions even further. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:30, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Oxy, please try to just ignore Raven. I know your terms of probation are to inform mods instead of taking action yourself but please try to ignore Raven. Do not engage with him. That should be your first action to take rather than running straight to a mod. As a mod, and I don’t think I’ll be alone in this, I’d rather watch you be the bigger woman and walk away. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:49, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::To be clear, {{ping|Ace McWicked}}, Oxy attacked me first. Check Hastur's link. {{User:GR/sig}} 07:54, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::I don’t give a fucking shit who fucking attacked who. Raven, just fucking ignore and refuse to engage Oxy. Oxy, stay the fuck away from Raven. Jesus fucking Christ - this is like moderating my 6 year old daughter. At least she understands enough to stay away from the kids that are mean to her. What’s your fucking excuse? [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:14, 13 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} Yeah, bothsiding this won't help. Treating the reactor the same way you treat the instigator is a bit smoothbrained. but eh, sure, I'll stay &quot;away&quot; from Oxy. Don't forget that she is on probation, not me. {{User:GR/sig}} 09:09, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :Raven, for awhile there I was totally on your side. But no longer. Stop. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 09:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::I would like to see a solution that ends this endless fighting/cooping/pleading-for-rights-restoration. I don't think I'm the only one who's quite tired of it. If the solution is a stay-away agreement that both parties agree to, that's great. Otherwise, I would support whatever it takes: permanent sysoprevoke for one or both parties, or permaban. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 16:19, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::I don't think that's necessary, the whole reason I came here was because of me abiding by the terms of my probation. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:24, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Then why did you remove it, {{ping|Oxyaena}}? [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:Oxyaena&amp;diff=2225636&amp;oldid=2224122] This was part of the probation that you were supposed to undergo. {{ping|Bongolian}} The permaban was rejected by the mob in the last coop. If you want, you can start a coop to sysoprevoke me, but that would be quite funny because I didn't abuse my sysop tools to sysoprevoke me in the first place (unlike Oxy, who, according to Nutty's stats, has systemically abused it). {{User:GR/sig}} 17:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::{{ping|Ace McWicked}} &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 17:37, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I just want to point out that my recommendation of adding it to her profile page was just that, a recommendation so both she and the mods wouldn't forget. It wasn't ever added to the sanctions, so she's technically not required to do it since it's not a part of her sanctions (can't say why she'd remove it tho...). Anyway, GR, please stop stirring shit just because you don't like Oxy, or else you could be looking at an interaction ban, because you're just stirring shit up to get her angry. Hell, even ''Ace'' told you to stop doing this on your talkpage and here we are ''again'' on what I'm pretty sure is just the same subject. Cut it out. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:46, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Crow, nobody asked you. Shut up. {{User:GR/sig}} 18:12, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Crow is right. Just because nobody asked doesn’t mean crow can’t have an opinion. Raven, you’re burning any good will you had. Move on, fucking end it. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 18:15, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Raven. Stop. Leave Oxy alone. Do something else. Jerk smack, go for a walk, whatever else you want to do - you’re not making friends here. Just stay the fuck away from Oxy. Oxy, please do the same. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 17:55, 13 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}Yes, the permaban was rejected before, but given the frequent history of you two appearing in the coop, there's a reasonable likelihood that you're both going to burn all the good will you had to reinstate you. I'm not planning to coop either of you. I'm just saying that you two should stop causing shit shows for your own good. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:55, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :I`m merely abiding by my probation terms. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 18:59, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::Oh I really like that term &quot;jerk smack&quot;. Urban dictionary has an extremely descriptive definition of the term. It's quiet evocative and I dare say even poetic. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:09, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Urban dictionary is wrong. To jerk smack means to shoot up heroin. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 19:49, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Interaction ban that goes both ways would be acceptable to me. It'd be better if GR and Oxy would do it voluntarily without involving the mob. My respect for the first of the two to stop responding to the other ones provocations will increase exponentially. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 19:16, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I do think that you could've handled this better Ace. Perhaps a polite request to GR to stay away from Oxy, followed by a request that Oxy also do the same with GR would've gone down better? I can see Oxy's point, and I fail to see why she needs to stay the fuck away from GR. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:57, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Ace doesn't do politeness really well. But other than that [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:GR&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2225701| he did exactly] [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Oxyaena&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2225704| what you asked there.] {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 21:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::{{ping|Kiko4564}} If I was impolite it is only because this has been going on for ages. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 00:14, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Yeah fuck this burning trashfire. lol {{User:GR/sig}} 02:05, 14 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}Another day, another 'retirement'. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 02:20, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :We should start up a scoreboard for the most fake retirements. Maybe we can even offer a free t-shirt for whoever has the record by 2025![[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:44, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::I’m proud to say in my 12 years at RW I’ve never pulled a LANCB. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 05:38, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::Well if you're interested in experimenting a few of us could harass the shit out of you until you LANCB! Limited time offer. Just say the word :) [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:10, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::That wouldn’t work on me - I can give it back twice as hard and secondly I’m adept at ignoring it. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:26, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Really? Even if I call you a big stinky doe-head? [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:03, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Suggested prizes for most number of LANCBs ::::*First Prize: permaban (wish granted) ::::*Second Prize: sysoprevoke for life (next best thing) ::::*Third Prize: 1 week block (longer than you have probably ever LANCBed) ::::*Participation Prize: free joke block, chosen by a committee of never-LANCBers ::::[[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:19, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I'd say those prizes are generous. Are you personally funding them out of your own wallet Bongolian? [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:03, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Agreed, LANCB is now a cliche in my opinion. It should be LAMCB (Leave And Maybe Come Back), as that would actually mean something. Thanks for your politeness, and civility when dealing with Oxy, Ace. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 10:40, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::SABWBBTW is maybe more accurate (Storming Away But Will Be Back This Week) [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:41, 14 September 2020 (UTC) == Request to inconvenience an ip range == Particularly there's a persistent ip address in Saloon Bar with string 2001:8003:59DB:4100 that's spamming right wing links. Can we get a 1-week range block to inconvenience it? I prefer this over a page protection. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 07:21, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't have an objection per se, but it would simpler to put a 1-week protection on the Saloon since that would not require a vote. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:30, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :: I've seen an ip and a relative new user use that page, so I'm a bit hesitant barring them. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 07:40, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::A vote is required? That seems absurd to me. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 10:38, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I would vote in favor of a short range-block, if I can be assured a range block won't blot out a whole city or something--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 10:39, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I would vote Aye too, but I'm not an eligible voter. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 10:49, 14 September 2020 (UTC) 2001:8003::/32 seems to be the range. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Block/2001:8003:0:0:0:0:0:0/32 I note it has been blocked before.] {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 21:11, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :If a range block is unacceptable, what about using the edit filter to limiting this range's edits to once a day?--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:25, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::This works too; just do anything that can limit the ease of sharing links. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 01:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::How about the vandal bin for this IP range? That way it will be limited to editing once every so often. I know this isn't normal, but this is an IP range, not just a single BoN. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:38, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::We never vandal bin IPs. People in the bin stay there indefinitely until someone cares to remove them. Too easy to accidentally leave IPs in there forever, which can impact innocent people. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) == Was I ever banned from this wiki? == See the discussion [[User_talk:DuceMoosolini#Smith|here]]. To make a long story short: one admin &quot;D&quot; started blocking my accounts as well as blocking many accounts I ''don't'' own (incorrectly tagging them under my name) after I confronted them about their behaviour and harassment a year back. As far as I'm aware there was no consensus to actually ban me from RationalWiki (or if there was it was manipulated by &quot;D&quot;), secondly, the ban doesn't work because I add valuable content on new accounts (I've been editing on Flight for 10 days and have already [[Patriotic Alternative|made]] [[Laura Towler|three]] [[Spiteful mutant hypothesis|articles]]) and come back and do the same thing on a new account — when I feel there is an important page that needs to be added to this wiki — like the [[Spiteful mutant hypothesis]]. If someone wants to take a look at what the harassment I confronted &quot;D&quot; about looks like (that has been going on now for ''over a year'') they can see [https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiInAction/comments/ggmjv5/banned_wikipedia_troll_captain_occam_real_name/fqr3bjk/?context=3 here] (&quot;D&quot;s Reddit account is virtually dedicated to libel): {{quotebox|Furthermore, the claim that Smith is mostly retired is contradicted by the many hundreds of accounts he's created on RationalWiki. Around 80 accounts a year since 2013. I don't necessarily have a feud with Oliver Smith beyond the fact he's a '''nationalist, anti-natalist, XXXXXXXXX, serial doxxer, cyber-harrasser, XXXXXXXXX etc'''. It would be truly difficult to imagine how I would even start character assassinating such an obnoxious person, he does it himself by simply existing.}} Needless to say none of these defamatory claims are true but I've had to deal with this crazy person run across the internet for the past year calling me everything from a paedophile, child abuser, child rapist, transphobe, psychopath, fascist, nationalist or far-right extremist on not only Reddit, but Discord, wiki-related forums and allegedly in emails where they are libelling me to others. Note &quot;D&quot; is not even consistent with the lies they post about me, for example they claimed on Reddit I created 80 accounts a year since 2013 (560 accounts) yet contradict themselves on a recent [[User_talk:DuceMoosolini#Smith|talk page]] claiming I own approximately 150. What happened to the other 400 accounts? [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:01, 14 September 2020 (UTC) : For clarification I've owned around three dozen accounts since 2012. Claims of hundreds of accounts, 150 or 560 are a wild exaggeration.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:48, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::Contrary to the quick closure done by {{ping|D}}, I want to point out that there has been no due process for Smith. Rather, Smith appears to have been speedily banned after he [[RationalWiki:Articles_for_deletion/Emil_Kirkegaard|filed AfDs for pages he created]], after admitting he'd gotten into legal trouble with some idiots and he didn't want RW to get into trouble. Dysk seems to then have gone and banned him outside of the mob, which in accordance with basic CS rules meant it had to be raised and '''voted on by the mob''' to get Smith permanently banned. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus While it was raised in ATIM], there was never any consensus reached on getting Smith banned. As a result, I feel that Smith does not currently preside under the rules that would constitute a permanent block, and it would be desirable for the mob to consider doing that vote now, because as is, there is no grounds to block Smith or any of his alts. Furthermore, I also call into question the competence of {{ping|D}}, who in this link appears to have admitted to using the Edit Filter as an outright alternative to CheckUser (tech rights technically allow for this, yes I need to bother David over this and yes I've been lazy in doing that), which is a fairly blatant abuse of rights given our rules surrounding the fact that we don't use CU and using AbuseFilter as a way around this is scummy as fuck. ::Finally, {{ping|Bongolian}} there is no need to block out &quot;XXXXXXXXX&quot; and &quot;XXXXXXXXX&quot; here. These are words Dysk said on that subreddit. I've undone the suppression of those edits. ::Because I was not specifically involved in whatever incident originally led to Smith getting his ass kicked (from what I know, not many a tear was shed over his departure), I will personally refrain from voting for this, but we have to respect basic procedure here. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:45, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::''who in this link appears to have admitted to using the Edit Filter as an outright alternative to CheckUser'' I've long thought this was the case. In which case - anyone using the edit filter to check IP's should have tech rights removed immediately. I suspect Oxy used this feature too. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 20:35, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::I do not like Smith, and will openly state that I would vote to ban him if it came to that. However, it is better to go through the proper procedures, lest a mistake allow him and his drama to remain. {{User:GrammarCommie/sig}} 18:00, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::{{Modhat}} The citation that was given by does not contain that text. It is indeed potentially libelous, as we don't know with absolute — just reasonable — certainty that this is the same Smith person. Reinstating the text is inadvisable, to say the least, because I hid the edits that showed it. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:39, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::It does contain that text. In fact, it's a literal cite (the only change is the removal of a newline, which might just have been the result from copy and pasting) from /u/Dysklyver (which is rather obviously Dysks' reddit handle). I would argue that we can say with enough absolute certainity that this is the same Smith, given that this user is arguing that he shouldn't be blocked, and his arguments are based on the assumption that he is Smith (which combined with his spiel on Duce's talkpage would indicate that he is Smith), which would be really weird if he wasn't actually Smith. Anyway, to prevent wheel warring, I won't bother to undo these suppressions. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 19:03, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::From what I have seen Dysklyver was originally on friendly terms with Smith. Dysklyver then became a close friend of [[Abd Lomax]] (who is banned here) and Lomax turned Dysklyver against Smith. On Reddit there has been a Dysklyver/Abd war against Smith and vise versa going on for over a year. They create countless petty threads against each other with accusations of sock-puppetry. Dysklyver has tech rights and he can see the IP address/s of created accounts on here. D has got a list of IP addresses from RationalWiki accounts which he claims match to Smith's geographical location (he's admitted this in a Reddit post) so he can apparently identify Smith by private IP data. Abd has repeatedly published private IP data on his website accusing Smith of owning hundreds of sock-puppets on this website. This is obviously a privacy violation. Mikemikev also has a history of impersonating Smith and he is also somehow involved in this drama. :::::: Abd is a prolific sock-puppeteer himself, and globally banned from Wikipedia for doxing users. I don't trust any of his data. Dysklyver/Smith are both good editors. The real issue here is Abd Lomax, he appears to have a heavy influence over Dysklyver and responsible for the Dysklyver/Smith drama. BTW I am somehow loosely connected to this 'drama' by Lomax who still accuses me of being Smith and posts about 1 million essays on his website about my account, however unlike other users he has accused of being Smith I have never engaged any of his nonsense off this website. I don't care what people write, but private IP data thing is out of order. Abd is untrustworthy and should not be given private IP data or logs from this website. The man is a menace. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 21:44, 14 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} {{ping|Johns}} Neither myself nor Smith are good editors, what the fuck are you talking about? Abd Lomax is half gone after covid, two strokes and a heart attack, you can write him off good as dead. Not that anyone was planning to send him obviously private IP-Data, except for you apparently. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:52, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Should we hold a full vote to confirm the ban?=== {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 18:35, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :No. Oliver Smith was permabanned. If Smith wants to appeal that ban, that was entirely the wrong way to go about it. If he thinks he was unjustly banned, he should: :#Take any off-wiki disputes with D or anyone else elsewhere, and not bring them up here. :#Confess to all of his puppet accounts and list them out: they were all ban evasions. :#Give a full explanation of why he thinks he was unjustly banned, including thorough citations. :[[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 19:16, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::Oliver Smith was not permabanned in accordance with our CS. He was blocked outside of our regular procedures by Dysk and aftewards there was no vote on him getting blocked, just some amount of yes-nodding and the closest to a consensus was a private agreement between Oxy and RWRW. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 19:20, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::The community standards weren't as rigorously enforced back then, RW was a different place. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 19:32, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::For anyone wondering, this 'agreement' between myself and Oxy is referenced to [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus here]. It was something like 18 months ago so I can't remember the conversation, but I don't deny that it probably happened. I don't think there was ever a formal vote to ban Smith so in a sense Crow is right about that, in a sense he's just been considered 'de-facto' banned. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 19:35, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::What was the first Smith account that was banned? I thought it was much older than 18 months ago. David Gerard banned an account years ago for impersonating Smith (it was Mikemikev according to him). [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 19:40, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Earliest Smith account that I've found was User:Krom, which was abandoned in 2015. I can't find any Smith account that was permabanned before February 2019 by Dysk (though I could be mistaken, he's had so many different accounts that it isn't easy to keep on top). {{Ping|D}} might know if there was any more. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 20:13, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::: D can see IP addresses on here for accounts so I am not sure how that works in regard to privacy, it can't really &quot;work&quot; because it is a violation of privacy. Can he check old edits and logs and get IP data from accounts created years ago? On most wikis CU data goes to about 6 months at the most, but I am guessing this is different. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 22:11, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Techs can only see IPs of users who proc the filter, which from what I know doesn't have expiring logs. (And yes this needs to be fixed.) I can't say for certain right now, in part because I obviously can't publicly spell out our anti spam tools (would be circumventable), whether or not any Techs have made lasting filters that would log every edit/account creation. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 22:36, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::: I believe it has been misused and there is a privacy violation. Dysk has admitted to collecting private IP data on Smith's RationalWiki accounts. Various private data and logs were sent to Abd Lomax (Lomax is a mod on Dysk/EK's discord). How do we know other private data is not being leaked off this website? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 22:45, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::We need to hide IP's even from techs. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 23:13, 14 September 2020 (UTC) : There are untrue claims by Dysk I use VPNs or TOR. I've never used one or tried to conceal my home IP-address here or anywhere else and anyone who can check IPs will see I'm not using a VPN now. Also note if you go back years I used to edit here publicly on my home-IP. That wouldn't make any sense if I was a VPN/TOR user trying to hide it. As for listing incorrect reasons for why I was banned - I did that on another page and this has been mentioned above by The Crow - the block was outside of regular procedures by Dysk/EK/Ox on Discord. The account they banned was [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Tobias Tobias] in May 2019 based on false allegations I doxed EK who Dysk has claimed is their sister. I never did dox, but linked to EK's public Wikipedia blocked account. According though to EK/Dysk the fact I posted a Wikipedia url is &quot;malicious doxxing&quot;. I suggest mods who can look through striked (deleted) content see [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Tobias my edits]. To summarise I was banned for no valid reason whatsoever. All the other accounts of mine Dysk has blocked such as Krom came after Tobias.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:17, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::Are we burying the lede here? People have been using edit filter to gain IP Address information? This is about as anti-RW as it gets and you lot are just going to gloss over that? [[Special:Contributions/203.54.149.190|203.54.149.190]] ([[User talk:203.54.149.190|talk]]) 00:45, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I am with the BoN here. RW has been '''strictly and stridently''' opposed to IP checking since it's inception. Anyone doing so should be kick-banned immediately with prejudice. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 00:48, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Well it is too late now, it's been going on for about six months or so, maybe longer. I know this issue has been raised several times before on here but no action was taken. I have only just realized how bad this is. The geezers who run this website need to be informed. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 01:11, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I believe that we went over this issue before, separately with both D and Oxy, who both denied that it took place. If anyone has any evidence to the contrary, let's have it. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 01:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I looked through the edit filters. I don’t see anything that looks like a pseudo-checkuser. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 01:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::OK - cool. I'll take your word for it. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 02:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::D has admitted to using filter IP data to ban a number of alleged Smith accounts. I've seen the filters, and though I haven't gone through the log data to confirm any blocked IP addresses appear there, I'm not sure why I'd doubt his claim. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 02:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) Mhm let's see; :- I blocked a lot of accounts and IP addresses as sockpuppets of Smith over a year or so following the doxing incidents. The vast majority of these were admitted accounts, with a few blocks based on obvious behavioural similarities. :- While at the time of blocking the relevant accounts I was unaware of the fact IP addresses were visible I later discovered this by accident, and mostly out of curiosity, used this feature to check the IP-Data on several accounts I'd blocked in the past. :- The IP-Data appears to remain recorded forever, I looked at some random edit filter events from the distant past and the IP-Data is still there. :- I considered this for a while to be a potentially useful stand-in for checkuser, although I never used it at such as it was unnecessary to do so, somewhat difficult to use, plus I felt that was likely to be not appreciated by others (despite not being technically against the rules). :- I later used the fact I'd seen several items of IP-Data, to tell Smith to fuck off and stop lying on Reddit during an argument. Smith's reaction was as if I had access to a Checkuser equivalent tool, and in the absence of any documentation explaining how limited this feature is, I encouraged that thought to wind him up. :- Despite John's claims, Abd has never seen any IP-Data, isn't a mod on any relevant Discord, and no IP-Data from this site has ever been externally recorded. Indeed except on a few occasions nobody has bothered to even look at it. :- While Oxyaena was a Tech here she became aware of the method to access IP-Data, and used it to check the IPs of Morris accounts to an unknown extent, I never asked for details on this. :- In some attempt to fix this edit filter loophole, I posted on David's talk page nearly four months on 18th June asking for this to be fixed, it has not been fixed at time of writing, IP-Data is visible to any Tech that wants to see it, although I haven't personally bothered for many months. :- Some months ago, when I'm not sure exactly, I discussed this on Discord and it was agreed to be a major site security flaw. Although only those with shell access can fix it, me and Ze later closed many edit filters to the bare minimum to avoid users tripping them unnecessarily. For example no Autoconfirmed, Autopatrolled, or Sysop flagged user will trip a filter. :- I have discussed the IP-Data concerns on Discord with numerous users, including The Crow, Nutty, Oxyaena, in addition to informing David who replied to my comment about it 4 months ago and is aware of the issue. I believe this covers the main points of discussion, if I missed anything let me know, I'll reply when I get back here at a later date. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 06:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I fucking knew Oxy was IP checking. I knew she was lying. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 06:53, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :{{ec}}I see that you raised [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:David_Gerard&amp;diff=2194294&amp;oldid=2154282 such concerns] around the same time that you [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:David_Gerard&amp;diff=2194294&amp;oldid=2154282 admitted to checking IPs.] I'll admit, I'm conflicted about all of this. On the one hand you're competent as a tech and seem to have a genuine interest in improving the site. However, abusing the trust of the community to see other users' IP addresses is a serious issue. I shall await to hear further arguments before throwing in any sort of judgement. It would help if you could 1. explain your relation to Abd and 2. explain why you've been banned by Wikipedia et al. Some may see this as irrelevant offsite drama but personally I feel that the more knowledge we have the better we'll be able to make decisions.--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 06:56, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::{{ping|Hastur}} Abd is a friend, I was banned from Wikipedia for trolling the admin pages. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::It would be useful for {{ping|David Gerard}} confirm this information to the extant that he can, and to hear his opinion if he cares to give it. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I have no idea about any of this and haven't even verified that the edit filter method of IP checking works - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 16:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I never checked shit, you're all basing this off hearsay by Dysk. I never checked IPs, I don't even know how to for Christ's sake. Fuck you, {{ping|Ace McWicked}}. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 07:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Why are you angry at me? I'm going by Dysk. Be mad at him. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Okay so since I spend some amount of time yesterday looking at filters to see if there are any &quot;strange&quot; ones that might have the goal of blocking users randomly, I feel like I can step in here to point out a few things. :::::* Oxy became aware of this while being a tech, by learning about it from Ze, who apparently learned it from you, who claimed at the time that you &quot;showed me but its not that easy to use&quot;, although I cannot verify whether she figured it specifically how to do it. Unfortunately, whether or not she used it to check Morris' IP addresses, I am not sure (I will add that she vehemently rejects doing it, but also see my last bullet). The unfortunate part is that if you have access to the Filter, you have access to the IPs (again can and should be blocked). There is no rights elevation or anything needed to see this at the moment. I can at least ensure the following things: :::::* There have not been any blanket filters designed to catch literally everyone, no matter what for more than 60 minutes. Some have existed, but looking at history and how they ended up, these appear more of a case of hitting submit too soon rather than deliberate right abuses. Basically, [[Hanlon's razor|don't assume malice to that which can be adequately explained by stupidity]]. :::::* There are no logs for looking at filter logs themselves, which I suppose makes sense, but it means we cannot audit if someone looked at IPs by looking at the filter log. :::::* There ''are'' a few strange filters, one of which appears to still be active today, which simply tag users with a specific tag, but don't do much else, which appears weird at first but on second thought appears to be based around the obsessions of certain users. To be clear, most of that filter appears to be fairly generic &quot;this is likely vandalism&quot; stuff, it's just that there are a couple of words which appear to be designed to catch certain types of blocked users, some of whom are related to the case at hand. :::::* Did Dysk conclusively access user IPs? Well, I'll leave that up to the rest of the mob to decide. The filters history is mostly circumstantial evidence, I'll freely admit. On Reddit, he claimed that he did. Here, he claims that he didn't. I can't find any conclusive logs that he did. That said, being in a position where you ''can'' access this stuff, it usually is a bad idea to claim you did, so it's best to not go around parading that you accessed any users' IP, which arguably Dysk violated. YMMV. :::::Hope this answers some of the questions that a lot of people appear to be having. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 07:39, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::: {{ping|D}} the discord I am talking about is called &quot;The Treehouse&quot; (also known as the Wikipediocracy discord) which you and ZE invited Abd to and made him a mod on. The original discord was made for banned Wikipedia editors or critics of that said website but it has since branched out for general discussions. Abd wrote in regard to yourself and this discord &quot;''I was '''invited''' to join the Wikipediocracy Discord, and that is where I was given mod status. Nice people!''&quot; (you can Google search this quote from Abd to find it as I don't wanna link to his hack website). In this discord server there a place called &quot;The Smithery&quot; you created, where ZE, yourself and your friend Abd do &quot;researches&quot; into Smith and his alleged RationalWiki accounts. I don't think we should deny these facts. Anyone can log in there and verify these things. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 18:17, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::{{ping|Johns}} I'd like to see evidence of what you wrote about this &quot;Treehouse&quot; if you don't mind, I don't recollect it, could be the LSD... {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:38, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :No I don't think we should hold a full vote. I wouldn't support a ban if I could vote, I can't as I'm new here, but I don't think we need a coop either. This isn't a case of HCM, this is a case of someone allegedly called Smith (a banned user) allegedly returning under a new identity to allegedly evade his ban, and avoid scrutiny. We just need a summary investigation of this allegation, and appropriate action taken. If this guy is Smith, he is a banned user, and he is returning to evade his ban, then we just need appropriate action taken. Otherwise no further action is necessary. As Bongolian claims to be sure that this guy is Smith, I would say that he can go ahead and take action himself, providing that he is sure i.e. satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that this guy is Smith, and that he is evading a ban. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:46, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::That guy claimed he was Smith. I have no other evidence. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Checkuser/IP checking=== Dysk has said he used it and Oxy used it. Oxy denied it however we [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive16#Checkuser have this exchange] where Oxy was very vague about it. Plus Oxy's frequent blocks of Morris as ban evasion which she did on ''multiple'' occasions. It doesn't look good. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:44, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't see what's &quot;vague&quot; about it, I was grasping at straws there. I never used checkuser. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 08:06, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I’m not talking about checkuser - I’m asking about using the edit filters to match IP’s which a) can be done b) you alluded to during an exchange and c) Dysk claims you have used it. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I never used it. I lied about using it. LGM saw that clearly. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 08:17, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::So it’s possible, you knew it was possible, said you had used then said you lied about it, now Dysk says you have used. A lot of conflicting claims and circumstances...this filter needs to be closed at once and I don’t think Oxy, Dysk or EK should be techs again. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:22, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::{{ping|Spud}}, {{ping|RWRW}}, {{ping|Bongolian}} - some more mod input would be good here. I think we need these edit filters closed and new techs appointed. It just ain’t good enough as it stands. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:44, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Yes, it looks almost certain that Dysk and Ze know how to use the edit filter to view IPs. I'll say that Oxy's version is difficult to believe given that Dysk claims she knew how to do it and she herself once said she knew how to do it. To his credit Dysk did inform David, but this is many months after these IP checking accusations started floating around. :::::::Crow's post above mentions that a suspicious edit filter is still active, it seems to have no useful purpose and should be closed right away. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 10:22, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Man, I’ve been poking around this issue for a whole fucking year. It’s the whole reason I came back because something didn’t seem right. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} It's not possible to access the edit filter details page without seeing the IP it's on the same page and you need to check the details page to check for false positives. The problem isn't that techs see the IP address as every tech who worked on the edit filter will have done that, the problem is whether that information was used to identify who owned various vandal accounts, or whether that's a conspiracy theory started by Dysk and Oxy playing troll games with Smith and Morris. Also new techs won't change anything because the information is still there and peeps will still see it. As for closing the edit filters, I can if you want but you will have to deal with the 15k spam bots posting ads everywhere. {{User:Ze/?}} 09:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :So when Oxy (Or any other tech) says they don’t know how to view IPs that is incorrect and they see them as a matter of course? It’s what you do with the info - I.e IP matching - that is the issue? And what do you mean about a conspiracy re: troll games? I’m just trying to understand how this works. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 09:34, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::The only way to not see the IP address is to not visit the details page, which would imply not bothering to check if the filter is working or not. A tech could avoid seeing the IP address if they weren't doing anything new with the edit filter tho because then they don't have to check. ::What I mean by troll games is that Dysk has always said his reddit posts are just to annoy people so aren't necessarily accurate imo, meanwhile oxy openly admitted above to lying in her comments about the edit filter and morris so that's probably not accurate either ::the vast majority of the time troll accounts don't trip the filter so imho it's not actually possible to use it as a checkuser type tool anyway and anyone claiming they have is vastly exaggerating what they can do with it. I've used checkuser on other wikis and it gives a lot more information including browser and device and cross referencing with other accounts by IP and metadata and without that you cant do anything useful. An IP address on its own is basically useless, so unless someone collected a lot of them, which would need a broad filter we dont have, there is no checkuser like capability. ::the IP addresses shouldn't be visible tho this needs to be fixed asap and the fact it's been brought up several times before and nothing happened is cringe. {{User:Ze/?}} 10:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Right - what I’m trying to establish is in what way tech rights can be abused given we have techs guilty of rights abuse in the past (Oxy is one of these - she has been put in sysoprevoke for such issues). Yes - this IP issue needs cleaning up immediately and I think Oxy and Dysk should never hold those positions again. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::My point is that nobody has abused the tech rights in relation to this. One of the root users at some point granted techs the ability to see private IP data, but no techs have collected or published it so the point is moot. If the point is that seeing the IP data is abuse then the blame lies with the root user who enabled it (probably trent) not with the techs doing their appointed task subsequently. {{User:Ze/?}} 10:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::OK, well I’ll be careful around accusations of abuse - I just wanted to know if it could be abused. And it has annoyed me that subsequent techs (in particular Oxy) have been very... murky and vague, when asked direct questions. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:39, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::I think there is the potential for the tech access to IP addresses to be abused and at various points Dysk and Oxy did intend to use it as a checkuser but this didn't happen mostly because it doesn't give enough information to be useful. The lack of information on the filter is mostly because nobody talks about it openly as people would read it and circumvent it if they knew exactly how it worked. {{User:Ze/?}} 10:49, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Well, if Dysk and Oxy discussed using it in this manner then they would have been actively tried to subvert one of RW strongest codes of ethics. If true - it’s no fucking joke... [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:52, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Is there any evidence you can provide that Dysk and Oxy discussed using an edit filter or something similar to create a checkuser type of ability? [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} Yes I can prove it, Dysk posted it on this page even: ::''I considered this for a while to be a potentially useful stand-in for checkuser, although I never used it at such as it was unnecessary to do so, somewhat difficult to use, plus I felt that was likely to be not appreciated by others (despite not being technically against the rules).'' In [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226423&amp;oldid=2226377 this] post. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:10, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::And Oxy? You said at various points - you mean away from the community eye I take it and without the communities knowledge? I’m finally putting some pieces of a puzzle together that I started putting together a year ago - this is why I am interested. I may be brusque, drunk, swear all the time but I have RWs rich history and traditions at heart - and IP matching/checkuser/anonymity is a huge deal. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I have uploaded [[:File:FilterDetailView.png]] and [[:File:FilterLogView.png]] for clarity. I recognize that this is a conversation that a lot of non-techs will be looking into, and as a result they might not be aware on how the interface looks (for reference, clicking details in the LogView image sends you to the DetailView image in the actual interface, and examine lets you run other filters against certain edits for testing). I've censored as much identifying information as possible to prevent this from getting tied back to any user in particular (the only visible thing is the specific filter they triggered, which uh... this is one of our public filters although it got disabled earlier today). One thing not really visible here is that you can filter the Log view specific to the user on whom an action was taken, on what page they attempted something and what filter might have been triggered. I hope this helps clarify a thing or two for any non-techs poking in. I've marked relevant information to this situation with a red background. Before anyone jumps my gun, I used a BON edit for this example, so y'all don't have to be scared I'm looking at your IPs or whatever. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 11:22, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::OK - as it stand I think {{ping|Oxyaena}} and {{ping|D}} have to answer some questions here. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::There are Discord channels with combined nearly 3 million posts dedicated to this site that you never really got involved in. All the existing mods and techs hang out on Discord and routinely talk about the site, even new techs like Crow are heavy discord users. So if you define the community as just the wiki then yes 90% or more of the decisions and talk are happening elsewhere. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::I joined Discord a few months back because I heard rumours about what was being said behind closed doors. This has always happened in one form or another of course but it seems Discord had a shadow “steering committee”. So I joined. Note for the community - I have talked about this issue, the techs and IP matching in Discord, and have strenuously advised that all discussion about this be made on wiki for the sake of transparency. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:45, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::You joined the support chat and maybe the old main chat(?) there are multiple channels that you aren't on where as much or more disscussion happens. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:55, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Well, shit man. I can’t be every where at once. Either way - my position is the same - all RW business should be discussed here. You wanna bitch about a user on Discord? Go for it. But policy reminds on RW always. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:57, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::Anyway - midnight here and I have work tomorrow. I’m sure there’ll be plenty for me to read tomorrow. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:59, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::I was interested in it and thought it may be worthwhile, I wasn't aware such a thing was that big of a deal. I never actually went through with it however. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 13:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::::So what I've said is still true. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 13:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::::Oxy, you're full of shit - I don't think you should ever hold tech again and this will be the reason. Can someone, anyone, actually address getting the edit filter fixed? {{ping|Ze}}, {{ping|David Gerard}}, {{ping|Spud}}. Fucking anyone? [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 21:05, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} Only root users can change the site configuration to hide the IP address details, {{ping|The Crow}} is more knowledgeable on the subject than me, he could perhaps assist David with the required changes. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:45, 15 September 2020 (UTC) == The page I created was deleted == {{ping|Jeh2ow}} deleted the page I created: ([https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Log/delete Deletion log]) 11:25, 15 September 2020 Jeh2ow (talk | contribs) deleted page Draft:Very fine people Hoax (Hopelessly off-mission: Extremely false) It doesn't seem to me that the [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Deleting rules about deletion] were followed, and anyway I dispute the deletion. I have a partial backup of the page, missing the last section. Also, I cannot write in the Saloon Bar anymore, I don't know if it is related to this matter.[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 12:17, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|Pam}} Even if Trump never said that Nazis were fine people (which he did, mind you), this still is a hopelessly off-mission topic and isn't really helpful to RationalWiki. I just had to deal with a regressive leftist who compared [[Stephen Fry]] to [[Osama bin Laden]], and I need a break to focus on my classwork. Don't even think about restoring this page.&lt;span&gt;— [[User:Jeh2ow|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;'''Jeh2ow'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk: Jeh2ow|&lt;font color=&quot;Blue&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Damn son!&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 13:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::{{ping|Pam}} Saloon Bar was protected by LGM yesterday due to excessive spamming. Only Autoconfirmed users can edit for the next few days. Apologies for the inconvenience. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 13:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::User doesn't have sysop or any other rights, so they can't recreate the page. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 13:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|Jeh2ow}} Trump did not say that Nazis were fine people. The page you deleted had a detailed analysis proving so, by showing the video and transcript of the conference. But of course it is impossible to have a discussion about that if you literally delete the arguments of one interlocutor. What you had to deal with Stephen Fry and your classwork is unrelated and you should not bring it to this thread. :Anyway, there are rules about pages deletion and I think there have not been respected. Also, I should be allowed to dispute a deletion by showing to other users and moderators the actual content of the page, while now I cannot. [[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 14:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :The article makes a fair point about something the media has gotten wrong for obvious reasons, and frankly I think it's at least as tangentially missional as stuff people have gotten in big fights over here, but it will likely stay deleted for reasons. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 14:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::The material in the deleted draft warrants no more than a brief mention in [[Donald Trump]] or [[Rhetoric of Donald Trump]], and certainly not a standalone article. As written, the draft made partisan, contentious and controversial statements. —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:11, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::{{ping|Nutty Roux}}{{ping|Cosmikdebris}} How can you see the deleted page? Is there some backup on RW? I ask because I cannot see how any discussion about the deletion of the page can be done if people cannot see the page that was deleted. :::{{ping|Nutty Roux}} What reasons? :::{{ping|Cosmikdebris}} What &quot;partisan, contentious and controversial statements&quot; did I make? Quote some of them.[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 15:34, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::{{ping|Pam}} Sysops can check &quot;deleted user contributions&quot;. Even suppressed contributions can be seen by mods or techs. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 15:50, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Pam, everyone but you can see the page because they're sysops. Cosmikdebris' assertion is it contained partisan, contentious, and controversial statements. No point in arguing with facts or asking him to demonstrate his claims because you're a new user and he's not. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 15:54, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :All right, so at least sysops can see the deleted page. :{{ping|Nutty Roux}} I know Cosmikdebris' assertion is that the page contained partisan, contentious, and controversial statements, why are you repeating that to me? I asked Cosmikdebris to quote statements that she/he believe to be &quot;partisan, contentious, and controversial statements&quot;. I doubt new users cannot ask to argue with facts. Also, you did not answered my question: &quot;What reasons?&quot; [[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 16:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I hear this one a lot so I don’t wanna spend a long time refuting it. If you wanna watch a YouTube video [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4T45Sbkndjc this one] does that for me pretty well. Otherwise, I’ll just outline the arguments quickly and then not participate any further in the discussion bc it’s been done to death. 1) The “very fine people” thing was not the first thing trump said about the protestors — he previously gave a speech in which he didn’t identify or specifically condemn the nazi types at all, and only gave the “fine people” speech where he did condemn them several days later. 2) I can’t see the deleted article so idk what (if any) news sources it cites, but the ones from reputable sources (eg NYT, NPR, whatever) that did call him out do, in fact, mention that he said “I don’t mean the nazis” and quote him saying so. 3) The UtR rally was explicitly organised as a far-right/neo-nazi/neo-confederate rally — take a look at the guest speakers, organisers, and advertisements for it for evidence. 4) There were no “fine people”/non-racists there, because non-racists don’t show up to protect a confederate statue and then march along with huge quantities of nazi symbols, slogans, confederate flags, Richard Spencer, David Duke, and so on. 5) Drawing any kind of equivalence between that kind of rally and the people protesting them is egregious and fucked. 6) The news sources calling out trump’s bullshit mention these things and these are the specific problems they have with him. So put simply, the media didn’t get it wrong, Trump only condemned the racists after previously refusing to, the rally was explicitly and inherently racist, and the news organisations were rightly calling out Trump’s attempts to whitewash an openly fascist rally attended by a domestic terrorist, as well as his drawing of a false equivalence between that and people protesting against that. You’ll can do what you want I guess but I would very strongly advise against restoring an article that’s further propagating a bullshit myth designed to further rehabilitate the image of a fascist rally and a president who attempted to obfuscate its true nature. [[Special:Contributions/49.182.47.130|49.182.47.130]] ([[User talk:49.182.47.130|talk]]) 16:10, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I think 49.182 above has summarized very nicely the issues I have with the draft article, and in a broader sense, the &quot;partisan, contentious, and controversial&quot; components of this issue. —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::{{ping|Cosmikdebris}} 49.182.47.130 cannot see the deleted page since he is not a sysop, and anyway she/he did not commented about it. I ask you for a third time: Please quote which parts of the deleted page are &quot;partisan, contentious, and controversial statements&quot;[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 16:44, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::It's right there in the name. Calling it a hoax. It's not hard to insinuate the rest of the page from there. In fact, I'll point out that even in your deleted quotes, all Trump has been doing is deflecting the question, and instead just says they ''should'' be condemned and his &quot;very fine people on both sides&quot; comment is the closest he gets to actually expressing a real moral judgement he can make, which... not a good look in the ''slightest'', so it's not a hoax to claim that this is his most direct value judgement on the neonazis on UtR. Anyway, this is a blatant [[PragerU]] talking point and we can debunk this into infinity if we really wanted to, but the BoN did it better than I ever could and that's without them even having to see the page. Get a bit more creative than repeating points made by hacks like Dennis Prager. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:46, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|The Crow}} Did you actually see the deleted page?[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 17:51, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I would personally have left the page in draft space. I saw it, I don't think it would have been worth keeping. While Trump did not directly call neo-nazis fine people and claimed that not everybody at the rally was a white supremacist (a hell of a stretch, because I can't imagine a cause where I'd be willing to attend the same demonstration as neo-nazis), we don't need an entire article dedicated to semantic arguments proving it. If you want to add a clarification to the Trump article or even [[Unite the Right]], you may do so- assuming the information isn't already there.--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 17:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::The problem with the page was two-fold. 1) It is not a hoax: Trump factually said it. At best, one could argue that it was quote mining by the media. 2) The reason that it was not even quote mining is that the UTR rally was created expressly to unite a diverse group of Nazi-aligned ''Arschlöcher''. So, Trump said there were some fine people among this group. It's not even quote mining because even ''The Daily Stormer'' called the whole bunch of groups Nazis. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&diff=2226699</id> <title>RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&diff=2226699"/> <updated>2020-09-15T21:45:58Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Checkuser/IP checking */ <hr /> <div>{{mod talk header}} &lt;center&gt;[[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive_List|Archives for this page]]&lt;/center&gt; {{#tag:inputbox| bgcolor=transparent type=fulltext prefix=RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation break=yes width={{{width|60}}} searchbuttonlabel={{{label|Search the archives}}} }} [[File:Moderator.jpg|thumb]] __TOC__ &lt;!-- write below this line --&gt; == Requesting input on CS interpretation == Okay, I'll just keep this short. As a part of [[RW:BLOCK]], we forbid bigoted material being posted on the wiki, which warrants a block. To this end, I've attempted earlier today to clean up three Saloon threads because two BONs inserted blockable crap as threads (a Comicsgate website and a [[Ludwig von Mises Institute]] article that goes &quot;racism doesn't exist, but hating on men does&quot;) and the third one being a Steven Crowder video on how Trump deserves a Noble Peace Prize. I'm not here to ask about that last one, given it was duplicitous anyway. Rather, Hastur appears to have restored the other two, saying &quot;if I don't like it, just ignore it&quot;. What I am in effect asking here is that in the event that we block someone for posting bigoted crap, is it okay to then also ''remove'' the bigoted crap. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 19:57, 10 September 2020 (UTC) :I would argue that this particular BoN's posts don't meet the standard of what is block/removal worthy. If we can't handle a link to the Ludwig von Mises institute, we have a problem--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 20:20, 10 September 2020 (UTC) ::Agreed. {{User:GR/sig}} 20:21, 10 September 2020 (UTC) :::I am content with just placing the troll posts in a nice &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{collapse}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; block. —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:15, 10 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I disagree with the use of the collapse template. I think its use ought to be discouraged--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:16, 10 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Yeah, there is an excessive use with the collapse template. It should be used conservatively and, instead, it's used all the time. {{User:GR/sig}} 23:28, 10 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::We shouldn't be seen as giving a platform to people who say, &quot;racism doesn't exist but hating on men does&quot;. That definitely should have been collapsed. Don't worry about using the collapse template too much. If crap needs to be collapsed, collapse it. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 00:12, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Or don't be so stubborn and just revert it. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 00:30, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::: Or literally don't revert or remove it because the talk page policy states you may only remove &quot;obviously vile trolling&quot; and &quot;spam&quot;. Brx is right. In fact, nearly everything brx has said for months is right. What the fuck. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 03:38, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Yeah fuck man, what the fuck? Brx has gone from that vile bastard who shits on your lawn during their morning jog to a valued voice. It just shows how low some people have dragged this site when Brx becomes reasonable. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 04:04, 11 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::It's not my fault your lawn is so poorly maintained it looks like a gas station toilet--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 04:11, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::My God...next thing you know Satan will sin the Nobel Peace Prize!!! [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:26, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :I protected the Saloon Bar for 9 hours. I don't mind him spamming us a few times a week but clearly this troll must have gotten a particularly mean wedgie from the boys at school today, and feels the need to compensate for his insecurities extra hard. --[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:42, 11 September 2020 (UTC) ::Oh, so that's who Hastur is. I had wondered. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 05:57, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::That's Brx alright. Funny he used to be such an annoyance but now I kinda like him. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:20, 11 September 2020 (UTC) ::::You could also just clean up the shit on the floor, instead of letting it sit there and fester. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 02:30, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Oxyaena already being hostile/aggressive after getting sysop back. Hopefully the people who voted to give her sysop back will rein her in (sarcasm: they won't and they don't care). {{User:GR/sig}} 02:57, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I don't see how that's aggressive or hostile, but okay. It's just blunt, but, anyways, as always: {{dftt}}. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 03:21, 13 September 2020 (UTC) == Editwarring on the [[Leo Gura]] page == It's happening between two sysops (Machina and HairlessCat), and it has been going on for days now. Request input by the mods. {{User:GR/sig}} 00:48, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :Agree. We've already discussed on the talk page how it needs to be edited to be less verbose and that being a justified measure for change (I said I would edit it tomorrow). Although, I suspect Machina's changes are indeed more ideological in nature and not related to the prose at all, which'd be why Machina's not waiting a tad. [[User:HairlessCat|HairlessCat]] ([[User talk:HairlessCat|talk]]) 00:59, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::OK - I have protected the page as it is now. Hash it out on the talkpage please. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 01:18, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::{{ping|Machina}} You might want to respond to this here. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 01:22, 13 September 2020 (UTC) The additions I removed were more about legitimizing woo or crank ideas, so they weren't relevant to the topic. It's not important what drugs he took or what he felt as a result, especially since the only evidence for any of his claims is personal experience from drug use. The segment on the incompleteness theorems seems like a bid to led Leo's interpretation credibility even though the article linked mentions that such an interpretation is incorrect (in that case why include it). The study linked for psychedelics increasing rebellion is not what the study says at all. If it were Deepak I would slightly understand since he is a big name who literally influences far more than Leo. But that page rightly calls him out for what he is. The edits on the Leo page seem like they were either written by Leo or some apologist to give him some credibility when all he has is personal experience for his woo. The edits I took out were irrelevant to the whole topic, if others BESIDES Hairless feel that this is in error I will side with that judgment, especially if it's the mods. Otherwise I see no reason to admit I was wrong. I mean even the callout on the talk page shows Hairless is too close to the subject matter to give a clear view of it.[[User:Machina|Machina]] ([[User talk:Machina|talk]]) 02:26, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :A person having a mental breakdown that stops them from believing in woo is pretty important, and the Godel quote is actually meant to show where he is mistaken on that matter. This isn't a conspiracy to whitewash the page. I'll fix the prose evening ETC. On the sixteenth of September once things cool down. [[User:HairlessCat|HairlessCat]] ([[User talk:HairlessCat|talk]]) 14:42, 13 September 2020 (UTC) == Request for IP suppression in Edits == I mistakenly edited a page without logging in properly and left my IP on a page. Is it possible to delete it?--[[User:Nessundorma|Nessundorma]] ([[User talk:Nessundorma|talk]]) 03:07, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :Yes, but I think you are making it worse by notifying us. Otherwise it would just be a random IP editing a certain page and that be it. Unless there is a significant privacy risk, I don't think the mods or techs will heed your request, though. {{User:GR/sig}} 03:10, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::Easy fix. Just post the edit and we can make it like it never existed. Or email it if you want to take an extra measure of privacy--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 03:17, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Yeah, if you really want it removed, it's best to email the IP address to a moderator to make it less obvious, but if for some reason someone is watching recent edits, they might be able to figure it out anyway. Don't forget the [[Streisand effect]]. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 03:35, 13 September 2020 (UTC) == Raven == I request an interaction ban, he's going out of his way to troll me and, as per the terms of my probation, am requesting moderator assistance because I feel I can't handle this in a civil manner. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:13, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Saloon_bar&amp;curid=77683&amp;diff=2225557&amp;oldid=2225555 It would help if you didn't try to troll him]--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:15, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::{{dftt}} &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:18, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Not a mod, but Hastur, that doesn't really constitute &quot;trolling.&quot; Oxy is trying to abide by the terms of her probation. Grow up, please. [[User:RoninMacbeth|RoninMacbeth]] ([[User talk:RoninMacbeth|talk]]) 05:21, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::{{ec}}[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:Oxyaena&amp;curid=201740&amp;diff=2225636&amp;oldid=2224122 Why did you remove this?.] Anyways, de-escalation is one thing, but it's really the least we can ask of you to not try and needle Raven and then get offended when he responds in kind--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:22, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I asked why you egg Raven on, you said &quot;because it amuses me.&quot; You're no better than him. Get off your high horse please. You're actively hindering efforts to deescalate things. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:23, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I offer my observations. I derive amusement from all sorts of discourse. Adding commentary to your interactions with Godless Raven is much like adding commentary to WIGO:CP--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:28, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Grow up. Your &quot;observations&quot; only serve to inflame tensions even further. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:30, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Oxy, please try to just ignore Raven. I know your terms of probation are to inform mods instead of taking action yourself but please try to ignore Raven. Do not engage with him. That should be your first action to take rather than running straight to a mod. As a mod, and I don’t think I’ll be alone in this, I’d rather watch you be the bigger woman and walk away. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:49, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::To be clear, {{ping|Ace McWicked}}, Oxy attacked me first. Check Hastur's link. {{User:GR/sig}} 07:54, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::I don’t give a fucking shit who fucking attacked who. Raven, just fucking ignore and refuse to engage Oxy. Oxy, stay the fuck away from Raven. Jesus fucking Christ - this is like moderating my 6 year old daughter. At least she understands enough to stay away from the kids that are mean to her. What’s your fucking excuse? [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:14, 13 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} Yeah, bothsiding this won't help. Treating the reactor the same way you treat the instigator is a bit smoothbrained. but eh, sure, I'll stay &quot;away&quot; from Oxy. Don't forget that she is on probation, not me. {{User:GR/sig}} 09:09, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :Raven, for awhile there I was totally on your side. But no longer. Stop. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 09:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::I would like to see a solution that ends this endless fighting/cooping/pleading-for-rights-restoration. I don't think I'm the only one who's quite tired of it. If the solution is a stay-away agreement that both parties agree to, that's great. Otherwise, I would support whatever it takes: permanent sysoprevoke for one or both parties, or permaban. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 16:19, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::I don't think that's necessary, the whole reason I came here was because of me abiding by the terms of my probation. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:24, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Then why did you remove it, {{ping|Oxyaena}}? [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:Oxyaena&amp;diff=2225636&amp;oldid=2224122] This was part of the probation that you were supposed to undergo. {{ping|Bongolian}} The permaban was rejected by the mob in the last coop. If you want, you can start a coop to sysoprevoke me, but that would be quite funny because I didn't abuse my sysop tools to sysoprevoke me in the first place (unlike Oxy, who, according to Nutty's stats, has systemically abused it). {{User:GR/sig}} 17:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::{{ping|Ace McWicked}} &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 17:37, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I just want to point out that my recommendation of adding it to her profile page was just that, a recommendation so both she and the mods wouldn't forget. It wasn't ever added to the sanctions, so she's technically not required to do it since it's not a part of her sanctions (can't say why she'd remove it tho...). Anyway, GR, please stop stirring shit just because you don't like Oxy, or else you could be looking at an interaction ban, because you're just stirring shit up to get her angry. Hell, even ''Ace'' told you to stop doing this on your talkpage and here we are ''again'' on what I'm pretty sure is just the same subject. Cut it out. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:46, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Crow, nobody asked you. Shut up. {{User:GR/sig}} 18:12, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Crow is right. Just because nobody asked doesn’t mean crow can’t have an opinion. Raven, you’re burning any good will you had. Move on, fucking end it. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 18:15, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Raven. Stop. Leave Oxy alone. Do something else. Jerk smack, go for a walk, whatever else you want to do - you’re not making friends here. Just stay the fuck away from Oxy. Oxy, please do the same. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 17:55, 13 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}Yes, the permaban was rejected before, but given the frequent history of you two appearing in the coop, there's a reasonable likelihood that you're both going to burn all the good will you had to reinstate you. I'm not planning to coop either of you. I'm just saying that you two should stop causing shit shows for your own good. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:55, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :I`m merely abiding by my probation terms. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 18:59, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::Oh I really like that term &quot;jerk smack&quot;. Urban dictionary has an extremely descriptive definition of the term. It's quiet evocative and I dare say even poetic. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:09, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Urban dictionary is wrong. To jerk smack means to shoot up heroin. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 19:49, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Interaction ban that goes both ways would be acceptable to me. It'd be better if GR and Oxy would do it voluntarily without involving the mob. My respect for the first of the two to stop responding to the other ones provocations will increase exponentially. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 19:16, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I do think that you could've handled this better Ace. Perhaps a polite request to GR to stay away from Oxy, followed by a request that Oxy also do the same with GR would've gone down better? I can see Oxy's point, and I fail to see why she needs to stay the fuck away from GR. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:57, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Ace doesn't do politeness really well. But other than that [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:GR&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2225701| he did exactly] [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Oxyaena&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2225704| what you asked there.] {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 21:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::{{ping|Kiko4564}} If I was impolite it is only because this has been going on for ages. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 00:14, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Yeah fuck this burning trashfire. lol {{User:GR/sig}} 02:05, 14 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}Another day, another 'retirement'. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 02:20, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :We should start up a scoreboard for the most fake retirements. Maybe we can even offer a free t-shirt for whoever has the record by 2025![[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:44, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::I’m proud to say in my 12 years at RW I’ve never pulled a LANCB. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 05:38, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::Well if you're interested in experimenting a few of us could harass the shit out of you until you LANCB! Limited time offer. Just say the word :) [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:10, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::That wouldn’t work on me - I can give it back twice as hard and secondly I’m adept at ignoring it. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:26, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Really? Even if I call you a big stinky doe-head? [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:03, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Suggested prizes for most number of LANCBs ::::*First Prize: permaban (wish granted) ::::*Second Prize: sysoprevoke for life (next best thing) ::::*Third Prize: 1 week block (longer than you have probably ever LANCBed) ::::*Participation Prize: free joke block, chosen by a committee of never-LANCBers ::::[[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:19, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I'd say those prizes are generous. Are you personally funding them out of your own wallet Bongolian? [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:03, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Agreed, LANCB is now a cliche in my opinion. It should be LAMCB (Leave And Maybe Come Back), as that would actually mean something. Thanks for your politeness, and civility when dealing with Oxy, Ace. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 10:40, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::SABWBBTW is maybe more accurate (Storming Away But Will Be Back This Week) [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:41, 14 September 2020 (UTC) == Request to inconvenience an ip range == Particularly there's a persistent ip address in Saloon Bar with string 2001:8003:59DB:4100 that's spamming right wing links. Can we get a 1-week range block to inconvenience it? I prefer this over a page protection. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 07:21, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't have an objection per se, but it would simpler to put a 1-week protection on the Saloon since that would not require a vote. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:30, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :: I've seen an ip and a relative new user use that page, so I'm a bit hesitant barring them. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 07:40, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::A vote is required? That seems absurd to me. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 10:38, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I would vote in favor of a short range-block, if I can be assured a range block won't blot out a whole city or something--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 10:39, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I would vote Aye too, but I'm not an eligible voter. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 10:49, 14 September 2020 (UTC) 2001:8003::/32 seems to be the range. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Block/2001:8003:0:0:0:0:0:0/32 I note it has been blocked before.] {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 21:11, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :If a range block is unacceptable, what about using the edit filter to limiting this range's edits to once a day?--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:25, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::This works too; just do anything that can limit the ease of sharing links. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 01:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::How about the vandal bin for this IP range? That way it will be limited to editing once every so often. I know this isn't normal, but this is an IP range, not just a single BoN. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:38, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::We never vandal bin IPs. People in the bin stay there indefinitely until someone cares to remove them. Too easy to accidentally leave IPs in there forever, which can impact innocent people. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) == Was I ever banned from this wiki? == See the discussion [[User_talk:DuceMoosolini#Smith|here]]. To make a long story short: one admin &quot;D&quot; started blocking my accounts as well as blocking many accounts I ''don't'' own (incorrectly tagging them under my name) after I confronted them about their behaviour and harassment a year back. As far as I'm aware there was no consensus to actually ban me from RationalWiki (or if there was it was manipulated by &quot;D&quot;), secondly, the ban doesn't work because I add valuable content on new accounts (I've been editing on Flight for 10 days and have already [[Patriotic Alternative|made]] [[Laura Towler|three]] [[Spiteful mutant hypothesis|articles]]) and come back and do the same thing on a new account — when I feel there is an important page that needs to be added to this wiki — like the [[Spiteful mutant hypothesis]]. If someone wants to take a look at what the harassment I confronted &quot;D&quot; about looks like (that has been going on now for ''over a year'') they can see [https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiInAction/comments/ggmjv5/banned_wikipedia_troll_captain_occam_real_name/fqr3bjk/?context=3 here] (&quot;D&quot;s Reddit account is virtually dedicated to libel): {{quotebox|Furthermore, the claim that Smith is mostly retired is contradicted by the many hundreds of accounts he's created on RationalWiki. Around 80 accounts a year since 2013. I don't necessarily have a feud with Oliver Smith beyond the fact he's a '''nationalist, anti-natalist, XXXXXXXXX, serial doxxer, cyber-harrasser, XXXXXXXXX etc'''. It would be truly difficult to imagine how I would even start character assassinating such an obnoxious person, he does it himself by simply existing.}} Needless to say none of these defamatory claims are true but I've had to deal with this crazy person run across the internet for the past year calling me everything from a paedophile, child abuser, child rapist, transphobe, psychopath, fascist, nationalist or far-right extremist on not only Reddit, but Discord, wiki-related forums and allegedly in emails where they are libelling me to others. Note &quot;D&quot; is not even consistent with the lies they post about me, for example they claimed on Reddit I created 80 accounts a year since 2013 (560 accounts) yet contradict themselves on a recent [[User_talk:DuceMoosolini#Smith|talk page]] claiming I own approximately 150. What happened to the other 400 accounts? [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:01, 14 September 2020 (UTC) : For clarification I've owned around three dozen accounts since 2012. Claims of hundreds of accounts, 150 or 560 are a wild exaggeration.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:48, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::Contrary to the quick closure done by {{ping|D}}, I want to point out that there has been no due process for Smith. Rather, Smith appears to have been speedily banned after he [[RationalWiki:Articles_for_deletion/Emil_Kirkegaard|filed AfDs for pages he created]], after admitting he'd gotten into legal trouble with some idiots and he didn't want RW to get into trouble. Dysk seems to then have gone and banned him outside of the mob, which in accordance with basic CS rules meant it had to be raised and '''voted on by the mob''' to get Smith permanently banned. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus While it was raised in ATIM], there was never any consensus reached on getting Smith banned. As a result, I feel that Smith does not currently preside under the rules that would constitute a permanent block, and it would be desirable for the mob to consider doing that vote now, because as is, there is no grounds to block Smith or any of his alts. Furthermore, I also call into question the competence of {{ping|D}}, who in this link appears to have admitted to using the Edit Filter as an outright alternative to CheckUser (tech rights technically allow for this, yes I need to bother David over this and yes I've been lazy in doing that), which is a fairly blatant abuse of rights given our rules surrounding the fact that we don't use CU and using AbuseFilter as a way around this is scummy as fuck. ::Finally, {{ping|Bongolian}} there is no need to block out &quot;XXXXXXXXX&quot; and &quot;XXXXXXXXX&quot; here. These are words Dysk said on that subreddit. I've undone the suppression of those edits. ::Because I was not specifically involved in whatever incident originally led to Smith getting his ass kicked (from what I know, not many a tear was shed over his departure), I will personally refrain from voting for this, but we have to respect basic procedure here. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:45, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::''who in this link appears to have admitted to using the Edit Filter as an outright alternative to CheckUser'' I've long thought this was the case. In which case - anyone using the edit filter to check IP's should have tech rights removed immediately. I suspect Oxy used this feature too. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 20:35, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::I do not like Smith, and will openly state that I would vote to ban him if it came to that. However, it is better to go through the proper procedures, lest a mistake allow him and his drama to remain. {{User:GrammarCommie/sig}} 18:00, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::{{Modhat}} The citation that was given by does not contain that text. It is indeed potentially libelous, as we don't know with absolute — just reasonable — certainty that this is the same Smith person. Reinstating the text is inadvisable, to say the least, because I hid the edits that showed it. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:39, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::It does contain that text. In fact, it's a literal cite (the only change is the removal of a newline, which might just have been the result from copy and pasting) from /u/Dysklyver (which is rather obviously Dysks' reddit handle). I would argue that we can say with enough absolute certainity that this is the same Smith, given that this user is arguing that he shouldn't be blocked, and his arguments are based on the assumption that he is Smith (which combined with his spiel on Duce's talkpage would indicate that he is Smith), which would be really weird if he wasn't actually Smith. Anyway, to prevent wheel warring, I won't bother to undo these suppressions. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 19:03, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::From what I have seen Dysklyver was originally on friendly terms with Smith. Dysklyver then became a close friend of [[Abd Lomax]] (who is banned here) and Lomax turned Dysklyver against Smith. On Reddit there has been a Dysklyver/Abd war against Smith and vise versa going on for over a year. They create countless petty threads against each other with accusations of sock-puppetry. Dysklyver has tech rights and he can see the IP address/s of created accounts on here. D has got a list of IP addresses from RationalWiki accounts which he claims match to Smith's geographical location (he's admitted this in a Reddit post) so he can apparently identify Smith by private IP data. Abd has repeatedly published private IP data on his website accusing Smith of owning hundreds of sock-puppets on this website. This is obviously a privacy violation. Mikemikev also has a history of impersonating Smith and he is also somehow involved in this drama. :::::: Abd is a prolific sock-puppeteer himself, and globally banned from Wikipedia for doxing users. I don't trust any of his data. Dysklyver/Smith are both good editors. The real issue here is Abd Lomax, he appears to have a heavy influence over Dysklyver and responsible for the Dysklyver/Smith drama. BTW I am somehow loosely connected to this 'drama' by Lomax who still accuses me of being Smith and posts about 1 million essays on his website about my account, however unlike other users he has accused of being Smith I have never engaged any of his nonsense off this website. I don't care what people write, but private IP data thing is out of order. Abd is untrustworthy and should not be given private IP data or logs from this website. The man is a menace. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 21:44, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ===Should we hold a full vote to confirm the ban?=== {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 18:35, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :No. Oliver Smith was permabanned. If Smith wants to appeal that ban, that was entirely the wrong way to go about it. If he thinks he was unjustly banned, he should: :#Take any off-wiki disputes with D or anyone else elsewhere, and not bring them up here. :#Confess to all of his puppet accounts and list them out: they were all ban evasions. :#Give a full explanation of why he thinks he was unjustly banned, including thorough citations. :[[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 19:16, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::Oliver Smith was not permabanned in accordance with our CS. He was blocked outside of our regular procedures by Dysk and aftewards there was no vote on him getting blocked, just some amount of yes-nodding and the closest to a consensus was a private agreement between Oxy and RWRW. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 19:20, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::The community standards weren't as rigorously enforced back then, RW was a different place. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 19:32, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::For anyone wondering, this 'agreement' between myself and Oxy is referenced to [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus here]. It was something like 18 months ago so I can't remember the conversation, but I don't deny that it probably happened. I don't think there was ever a formal vote to ban Smith so in a sense Crow is right about that, in a sense he's just been considered 'de-facto' banned. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 19:35, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::What was the first Smith account that was banned? I thought it was much older than 18 months ago. David Gerard banned an account years ago for impersonating Smith (it was Mikemikev according to him). [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 19:40, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Earliest Smith account that I've found was User:Krom, which was abandoned in 2015. I can't find any Smith account that was permabanned before February 2019 by Dysk (though I could be mistaken, he's had so many different accounts that it isn't easy to keep on top). {{Ping|D}} might know if there was any more. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 20:13, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::: D can see IP addresses on here for accounts so I am not sure how that works in regard to privacy, it can't really &quot;work&quot; because it is a violation of privacy. Can he check old edits and logs and get IP data from accounts created years ago? On most wikis CU data goes to about 6 months at the most, but I am guessing this is different. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 22:11, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Techs can only see IPs of users who proc the filter, which from what I know doesn't have expiring logs. (And yes this needs to be fixed.) I can't say for certain right now, in part because I obviously can't publicly spell out our anti spam tools (would be circumventable), whether or not any Techs have made lasting filters that would log every edit/account creation. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 22:36, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::: I believe it has been misused and there is a privacy violation. Dysk has admitted to collecting private IP data on Smith's RationalWiki accounts. Various private data and logs were sent to Abd Lomax (Lomax is a mod on Dysk/EK's discord). How do we know other private data is not being leaked off this website? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 22:45, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::We need to hide IP's even from techs. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 23:13, 14 September 2020 (UTC) : There are untrue claims by Dysk I use VPNs or TOR. I've never used one or tried to conceal my home IP-address here or anywhere else and anyone who can check IPs will see I'm not using a VPN now. Also note if you go back years I used to edit here publicly on my home-IP. That wouldn't make any sense if I was a VPN/TOR user trying to hide it. As for listing incorrect reasons for why I was banned - I did that on another page and this has been mentioned above by The Crow - the block was outside of regular procedures by Dysk/EK/Ox on Discord. The account they banned was [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Tobias Tobias] in May 2019 based on false allegations I doxed EK who Dysk has claimed is their sister. I never did dox, but linked to EK's public Wikipedia blocked account. According though to EK/Dysk the fact I posted a Wikipedia url is &quot;malicious doxxing&quot;. I suggest mods who can look through striked (deleted) content see [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Tobias my edits]. To summarise I was banned for no valid reason whatsoever. All the other accounts of mine Dysk has blocked such as Krom came after Tobias.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:17, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::Are we burying the lede here? People have been using edit filter to gain IP Address information? This is about as anti-RW as it gets and you lot are just going to gloss over that? [[Special:Contributions/203.54.149.190|203.54.149.190]] ([[User talk:203.54.149.190|talk]]) 00:45, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I am with the BoN here. RW has been '''strictly and stridently''' opposed to IP checking since it's inception. Anyone doing so should be kick-banned immediately with prejudice. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 00:48, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Well it is too late now, it's been going on for about six months or so, maybe longer. I know this issue has been raised several times before on here but no action was taken. I have only just realized how bad this is. The geezers who run this website need to be informed. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 01:11, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I believe that we went over this issue before, separately with both D and Oxy, who both denied that it took place. If anyone has any evidence to the contrary, let's have it. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 01:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I looked through the edit filters. I don’t see anything that looks like a pseudo-checkuser. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 01:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::OK - cool. I'll take your word for it. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 02:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::D has admitted to using filter IP data to ban a number of alleged Smith accounts. I've seen the filters, and though I haven't gone through the log data to confirm any blocked IP addresses appear there, I'm not sure why I'd doubt his claim. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 02:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) Mhm let's see; :- I blocked a lot of accounts and IP addresses as sockpuppets of Smith over a year or so following the doxing incidents. The vast majority of these were admitted accounts, with a few blocks based on obvious behavioural similarities. :- While at the time of blocking the relevant accounts I was unaware of the fact IP addresses were visible I later discovered this by accident, and mostly out of curiosity, used this feature to check the IP-Data on several accounts I'd blocked in the past. :- The IP-Data appears to remain recorded forever, I looked at some random edit filter events from the distant past and the IP-Data is still there. :- I considered this for a while to be a potentially useful stand-in for checkuser, although I never used it at such as it was unnecessary to do so, somewhat difficult to use, plus I felt that was likely to be not appreciated by others (despite not being technically against the rules). :- I later used the fact I'd seen several items of IP-Data, to tell Smith to fuck off and stop lying on Reddit during an argument. Smith's reaction was as if I had access to a Checkuser equivalent tool, and in the absence of any documentation explaining how limited this feature is, I encouraged that thought to wind him up. :- Despite John's claims, Abd has never seen any IP-Data, isn't a mod on any relevant Discord, and no IP-Data from this site has ever been externally recorded. Indeed except on a few occasions nobody has bothered to even look at it. :- While Oxyaena was a Tech here she became aware of the method to access IP-Data, and used it to check the IPs of Morris accounts to an unknown extent, I never asked for details on this. :- In some attempt to fix this edit filter loophole, I posted on David's talk page nearly four months on 18th June asking for this to be fixed, it has not been fixed at time of writing, IP-Data is visible to any Tech that wants to see it, although I haven't personally bothered for many months. :- Some months ago, when I'm not sure exactly, I discussed this on Discord and it was agreed to be a major site security flaw. Although only those with shell access can fix it, me and Ze later closed many edit filters to the bare minimum to avoid users tripping them unnecessarily. For example no Autoconfirmed, Autopatrolled, or Sysop flagged user will trip a filter. :- I have discussed the IP-Data concerns on Discord with numerous users, including The Crow, Nutty, Oxyaena, in addition to informing David who replied to my comment about it 4 months ago and is aware of the issue. I believe this covers the main points of discussion, if I missed anything let me know, I'll reply when I get back here at a later date. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 06:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I fucking knew Oxy was IP checking. I knew she was lying. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 06:53, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :{{ec}}I see that you raised [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:David_Gerard&amp;diff=2194294&amp;oldid=2154282 such concerns] around the same time that you [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:David_Gerard&amp;diff=2194294&amp;oldid=2154282 admitted to checking IPs.] I'll admit, I'm conflicted about all of this. On the one hand you're competent as a tech and seem to have a genuine interest in improving the site. However, abusing the trust of the community to see other users' IP addresses is a serious issue. I shall await to hear further arguments before throwing in any sort of judgement. It would help if you could 1. explain your relation to Abd and 2. explain why you've been banned by Wikipedia et al. Some may see this as irrelevant offsite drama but personally I feel that the more knowledge we have the better we'll be able to make decisions.--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 06:56, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::{{ping|Hastur}} Abd is a friend, I was banned from Wikipedia for trolling the admin pages. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::It would be useful for {{ping|David Gerard}} confirm this information to the extant that he can, and to hear his opinion if he cares to give it. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I have no idea about any of this and haven't even verified that the edit filter method of IP checking works - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 16:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I never checked shit, you're all basing this off hearsay by Dysk. I never checked IPs, I don't even know how to for Christ's sake. Fuck you, {{ping|Ace McWicked}}. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 07:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Why are you angry at me? I'm going by Dysk. Be mad at him. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Okay so since I spend some amount of time yesterday looking at filters to see if there are any &quot;strange&quot; ones that might have the goal of blocking users randomly, I feel like I can step in here to point out a few things. :::::* Oxy became aware of this while being a tech, by learning about it from Ze, who apparently learned it from you, who claimed at the time that you &quot;showed me but its not that easy to use&quot;, although I cannot verify whether she figured it specifically how to do it. Unfortunately, whether or not she used it to check Morris' IP addresses, I am not sure (I will add that she vehemently rejects doing it, but also see my last bullet). The unfortunate part is that if you have access to the Filter, you have access to the IPs (again can and should be blocked). There is no rights elevation or anything needed to see this at the moment. I can at least ensure the following things: :::::* There have not been any blanket filters designed to catch literally everyone, no matter what for more than 60 minutes. Some have existed, but looking at history and how they ended up, these appear more of a case of hitting submit too soon rather than deliberate right abuses. Basically, [[Hanlon's razor|don't assume malice to that which can be adequately explained by stupidity]]. :::::* There are no logs for looking at filter logs themselves, which I suppose makes sense, but it means we cannot audit if someone looked at IPs by looking at the filter log. :::::* There ''are'' a few strange filters, one of which appears to still be active today, which simply tag users with a specific tag, but don't do much else, which appears weird at first but on second thought appears to be based around the obsessions of certain users. To be clear, most of that filter appears to be fairly generic &quot;this is likely vandalism&quot; stuff, it's just that there are a couple of words which appear to be designed to catch certain types of blocked users, some of whom are related to the case at hand. :::::* Did Dysk conclusively access user IPs? Well, I'll leave that up to the rest of the mob to decide. The filters history is mostly circumstantial evidence, I'll freely admit. On Reddit, he claimed that he did. Here, he claims that he didn't. I can't find any conclusive logs that he did. That said, being in a position where you ''can'' access this stuff, it usually is a bad idea to claim you did, so it's best to not go around parading that you accessed any users' IP, which arguably Dysk violated. YMMV. :::::Hope this answers some of the questions that a lot of people appear to be having. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 07:39, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::: {{ping|D}} the discord I am talking about is called &quot;The Treehouse&quot; (also known as the Wikipediocracy discord) which you and ZE invited Abd to and made him a mod on. The original discord was made for banned Wikipedia editors or critics of that said website but it has since branched out for general discussions. Abd wrote in regard to yourself and this discord &quot;''I was '''invited''' to join the Wikipediocracy Discord, and that is where I was given mod status. Nice people!''&quot; (you can Google search this quote from Abd to find it as I don't wanna link to his hack website). In this discord server there a place called &quot;The Smithery&quot; you created, where ZE, yourself and your friend Abd do &quot;researches&quot; into Smith and his alleged RationalWiki accounts. I don't think we should deny these facts. Anyone can log in there and verify these things. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 18:17, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::{{ping|Johns}} I'd like to see evidence of what you wrote about this &quot;Treehouse&quot; if you don't mind, I don't recollect it, could be the LSD... {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:38, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :No I don't think we should hold a full vote. I wouldn't support a ban if I could vote, I can't as I'm new here, but I don't think we need a coop either. This isn't a case of HCM, this is a case of someone allegedly called Smith (a banned user) allegedly returning under a new identity to allegedly evade his ban, and avoid scrutiny. We just need a summary investigation of this allegation, and appropriate action taken. If this guy is Smith, he is a banned user, and he is returning to evade his ban, then we just need appropriate action taken. Otherwise no further action is necessary. As Bongolian claims to be sure that this guy is Smith, I would say that he can go ahead and take action himself, providing that he is sure i.e. satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that this guy is Smith, and that he is evading a ban. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:46, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::That guy claimed he was Smith. I have no other evidence. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Checkuser/IP checking=== Dysk has said he used it and Oxy used it. Oxy denied it however we [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive16#Checkuser have this exchange] where Oxy was very vague about it. Plus Oxy's frequent blocks of Morris as ban evasion which she did on ''multiple'' occasions. It doesn't look good. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:44, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't see what's &quot;vague&quot; about it, I was grasping at straws there. I never used checkuser. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 08:06, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I’m not talking about checkuser - I’m asking about using the edit filters to match IP’s which a) can be done b) you alluded to during an exchange and c) Dysk claims you have used it. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I never used it. I lied about using it. LGM saw that clearly. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 08:17, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::So it’s possible, you knew it was possible, said you had used then said you lied about it, now Dysk says you have used. A lot of conflicting claims and circumstances...this filter needs to be closed at once and I don’t think Oxy, Dysk or EK should be techs again. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:22, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::{{ping|Spud}}, {{ping|RWRW}}, {{ping|Bongolian}} - some more mod input would be good here. I think we need these edit filters closed and new techs appointed. It just ain’t good enough as it stands. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:44, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Yes, it looks almost certain that Dysk and Ze know how to use the edit filter to view IPs. I'll say that Oxy's version is difficult to believe given that Dysk claims she knew how to do it and she herself once said she knew how to do it. To his credit Dysk did inform David, but this is many months after these IP checking accusations started floating around. :::::::Crow's post above mentions that a suspicious edit filter is still active, it seems to have no useful purpose and should be closed right away. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 10:22, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Man, I’ve been poking around this issue for a whole fucking year. It’s the whole reason I came back because something didn’t seem right. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} It's not possible to access the edit filter details page without seeing the IP it's on the same page and you need to check the details page to check for false positives. The problem isn't that techs see the IP address as every tech who worked on the edit filter will have done that, the problem is whether that information was used to identify who owned various vandal accounts, or whether that's a conspiracy theory started by Dysk and Oxy playing troll games with Smith and Morris. Also new techs won't change anything because the information is still there and peeps will still see it. As for closing the edit filters, I can if you want but you will have to deal with the 15k spam bots posting ads everywhere. {{User:Ze/?}} 09:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :So when Oxy (Or any other tech) says they don’t know how to view IPs that is incorrect and they see them as a matter of course? It’s what you do with the info - I.e IP matching - that is the issue? And what do you mean about a conspiracy re: troll games? I’m just trying to understand how this works. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 09:34, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::The only way to not see the IP address is to not visit the details page, which would imply not bothering to check if the filter is working or not. A tech could avoid seeing the IP address if they weren't doing anything new with the edit filter tho because then they don't have to check. ::What I mean by troll games is that Dysk has always said his reddit posts are just to annoy people so aren't necessarily accurate imo, meanwhile oxy openly admitted above to lying in her comments about the edit filter and morris so that's probably not accurate either ::the vast majority of the time troll accounts don't trip the filter so imho it's not actually possible to use it as a checkuser type tool anyway and anyone claiming they have is vastly exaggerating what they can do with it. I've used checkuser on other wikis and it gives a lot more information including browser and device and cross referencing with other accounts by IP and metadata and without that you cant do anything useful. An IP address on its own is basically useless, so unless someone collected a lot of them, which would need a broad filter we dont have, there is no checkuser like capability. ::the IP addresses shouldn't be visible tho this needs to be fixed asap and the fact it's been brought up several times before and nothing happened is cringe. {{User:Ze/?}} 10:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Right - what I’m trying to establish is in what way tech rights can be abused given we have techs guilty of rights abuse in the past (Oxy is one of these - she has been put in sysoprevoke for such issues). Yes - this IP issue needs cleaning up immediately and I think Oxy and Dysk should never hold those positions again. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::My point is that nobody has abused the tech rights in relation to this. One of the root users at some point granted techs the ability to see private IP data, but no techs have collected or published it so the point is moot. If the point is that seeing the IP data is abuse then the blame lies with the root user who enabled it (probably trent) not with the techs doing their appointed task subsequently. {{User:Ze/?}} 10:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::OK, well I’ll be careful around accusations of abuse - I just wanted to know if it could be abused. And it has annoyed me that subsequent techs (in particular Oxy) have been very... murky and vague, when asked direct questions. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:39, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::I think there is the potential for the tech access to IP addresses to be abused and at various points Dysk and Oxy did intend to use it as a checkuser but this didn't happen mostly because it doesn't give enough information to be useful. The lack of information on the filter is mostly because nobody talks about it openly as people would read it and circumvent it if they knew exactly how it worked. {{User:Ze/?}} 10:49, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Well, if Dysk and Oxy discussed using it in this manner then they would have been actively tried to subvert one of RW strongest codes of ethics. If true - it’s no fucking joke... [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:52, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Is there any evidence you can provide that Dysk and Oxy discussed using an edit filter or something similar to create a checkuser type of ability? [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} Yes I can prove it, Dysk posted it on this page even: ::''I considered this for a while to be a potentially useful stand-in for checkuser, although I never used it at such as it was unnecessary to do so, somewhat difficult to use, plus I felt that was likely to be not appreciated by others (despite not being technically against the rules).'' In [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226423&amp;oldid=2226377 this] post. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:10, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::And Oxy? You said at various points - you mean away from the community eye I take it and without the communities knowledge? I’m finally putting some pieces of a puzzle together that I started putting together a year ago - this is why I am interested. I may be brusque, drunk, swear all the time but I have RWs rich history and traditions at heart - and IP matching/checkuser/anonymity is a huge deal. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I have uploaded [[:File:FilterDetailView.png]] and [[:File:FilterLogView.png]] for clarity. I recognize that this is a conversation that a lot of non-techs will be looking into, and as a result they might not be aware on how the interface looks (for reference, clicking details in the LogView image sends you to the DetailView image in the actual interface, and examine lets you run other filters against certain edits for testing). I've censored as much identifying information as possible to prevent this from getting tied back to any user in particular (the only visible thing is the specific filter they triggered, which uh... this is one of our public filters although it got disabled earlier today). One thing not really visible here is that you can filter the Log view specific to the user on whom an action was taken, on what page they attempted something and what filter might have been triggered. I hope this helps clarify a thing or two for any non-techs poking in. I've marked relevant information to this situation with a red background. Before anyone jumps my gun, I used a BON edit for this example, so y'all don't have to be scared I'm looking at your IPs or whatever. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 11:22, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::OK - as it stand I think {{ping|Oxyaena}} and {{ping|D}} have to answer some questions here. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::There are Discord channels with combined nearly 3 million posts dedicated to this site that you never really got involved in. All the existing mods and techs hang out on Discord and routinely talk about the site, even new techs like Crow are heavy discord users. So if you define the community as just the wiki then yes 90% or more of the decisions and talk are happening elsewhere. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::I joined Discord a few months back because I heard rumours about what was being said behind closed doors. This has always happened in one form or another of course but it seems Discord had a shadow “steering committee”. So I joined. Note for the community - I have talked about this issue, the techs and IP matching in Discord, and have strenuously advised that all discussion about this be made on wiki for the sake of transparency. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:45, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::You joined the support chat and maybe the old main chat(?) there are multiple channels that you aren't on where as much or more disscussion happens. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:55, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Well, shit man. I can’t be every where at once. Either way - my position is the same - all RW business should be discussed here. You wanna bitch about a user on Discord? Go for it. But policy reminds on RW always. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:57, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::Anyway - midnight here and I have work tomorrow. I’m sure there’ll be plenty for me to read tomorrow. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:59, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::I was interested in it and thought it may be worthwhile, I wasn't aware such a thing was that big of a deal. I never actually went through with it however. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 13:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::::So what I've said is still true. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 13:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::::Oxy, you're full of shit - I don't think you should ever hold tech again and this will be the reason. Can someone, anyone, actually address getting the edit filter fixed? {{ping|Ze}}, {{ping|David Gerard}}, {{ping|Spud}}. Fucking anyone? [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 21:05, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} Only root users can change the site configuration to hide the IP address details, {{ping|The Crow}} is more knowledgeable on the subject than me, he could perhaps assist David with the required changes. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:45, 15 September 2020 (UTC) == The page I created was deleted == {{ping|Jeh2ow}} deleted the page I created: ([https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Log/delete Deletion log]) 11:25, 15 September 2020 Jeh2ow (talk | contribs) deleted page Draft:Very fine people Hoax (Hopelessly off-mission: Extremely false) It doesn't seem to me that the [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Deleting rules about deletion] were followed, and anyway I dispute the deletion. I have a partial backup of the page, missing the last section. Also, I cannot write in the Saloon Bar anymore, I don't know if it is related to this matter.[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 12:17, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|Pam}} Even if Trump never said that Nazis were fine people (which he did, mind you), this still is a hopelessly off-mission topic and isn't really helpful to RationalWiki. I just had to deal with a regressive leftist who compared [[Stephen Fry]] to [[Osama bin Laden]], and I need a break to focus on my classwork. Don't even think about restoring this page.&lt;span&gt;— [[User:Jeh2ow|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;'''Jeh2ow'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk: Jeh2ow|&lt;font color=&quot;Blue&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Damn son!&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 13:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::{{ping|Pam}} Saloon Bar was protected by LGM yesterday due to excessive spamming. Only Autoconfirmed users can edit for the next few days. Apologies for the inconvenience. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 13:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::User doesn't have sysop or any other rights, so they can't recreate the page. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 13:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|Jeh2ow}} Trump did not say that Nazis were fine people. The page you deleted had a detailed analysis proving so, by showing the video and transcript of the conference. But of course it is impossible to have a discussion about that if you literally delete the arguments of one interlocutor. What you had to deal with Stephen Fry and your classwork is unrelated and you should not bring it to this thread. :Anyway, there are rules about pages deletion and I think there have not been respected. Also, I should be allowed to dispute a deletion by showing to other users and moderators the actual content of the page, while now I cannot. [[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 14:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :The article makes a fair point about something the media has gotten wrong for obvious reasons, and frankly I think it's at least as tangentially missional as stuff people have gotten in big fights over here, but it will likely stay deleted for reasons. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 14:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::The material in the deleted draft warrants no more than a brief mention in [[Donald Trump]] or [[Rhetoric of Donald Trump]], and certainly not a standalone article. As written, the draft made partisan, contentious and controversial statements. —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:11, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::{{ping|Nutty Roux}}{{ping|Cosmikdebris}} How can you see the deleted page? Is there some backup on RW? I ask because I cannot see how any discussion about the deletion of the page can be done if people cannot see the page that was deleted. :::{{ping|Nutty Roux}} What reasons? :::{{ping|Cosmikdebris}} What &quot;partisan, contentious and controversial statements&quot; did I make? Quote some of them.[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 15:34, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::{{ping|Pam}} Sysops can check &quot;deleted user contributions&quot;. Even suppressed contributions can be seen by mods or techs. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 15:50, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Pam, everyone but you can see the page because they're sysops. Cosmikdebris' assertion is it contained partisan, contentious, and controversial statements. No point in arguing with facts or asking him to demonstrate his claims because you're a new user and he's not. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 15:54, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :All right, so at least sysops can see the deleted page. :{{ping|Nutty Roux}} I know Cosmikdebris' assertion is that the page contained partisan, contentious, and controversial statements, why are you repeating that to me? I asked Cosmikdebris to quote statements that she/he believe to be &quot;partisan, contentious, and controversial statements&quot;. I doubt new users cannot ask to argue with facts. Also, you did not answered my question: &quot;What reasons?&quot; [[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 16:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I hear this one a lot so I don’t wanna spend a long time refuting it. If you wanna watch a YouTube video [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4T45Sbkndjc this one] does that for me pretty well. Otherwise, I’ll just outline the arguments quickly and then not participate any further in the discussion bc it’s been done to death. 1) The “very fine people” thing was not the first thing trump said about the protestors — he previously gave a speech in which he didn’t identify or specifically condemn the nazi types at all, and only gave the “fine people” speech where he did condemn them several days later. 2) I can’t see the deleted article so idk what (if any) news sources it cites, but the ones from reputable sources (eg NYT, NPR, whatever) that did call him out do, in fact, mention that he said “I don’t mean the nazis” and quote him saying so. 3) The UtR rally was explicitly organised as a far-right/neo-nazi/neo-confederate rally — take a look at the guest speakers, organisers, and advertisements for it for evidence. 4) There were no “fine people”/non-racists there, because non-racists don’t show up to protect a confederate statue and then march along with huge quantities of nazi symbols, slogans, confederate flags, Richard Spencer, David Duke, and so on. 5) Drawing any kind of equivalence between that kind of rally and the people protesting them is egregious and fucked. 6) The news sources calling out trump’s bullshit mention these things and these are the specific problems they have with him. So put simply, the media didn’t get it wrong, Trump only condemned the racists after previously refusing to, the rally was explicitly and inherently racist, and the news organisations were rightly calling out Trump’s attempts to whitewash an openly fascist rally attended by a domestic terrorist, as well as his drawing of a false equivalence between that and people protesting against that. You’ll can do what you want I guess but I would very strongly advise against restoring an article that’s further propagating a bullshit myth designed to further rehabilitate the image of a fascist rally and a president who attempted to obfuscate its true nature. [[Special:Contributions/49.182.47.130|49.182.47.130]] ([[User talk:49.182.47.130|talk]]) 16:10, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I think 49.182 above has summarized very nicely the issues I have with the draft article, and in a broader sense, the &quot;partisan, contentious, and controversial&quot; components of this issue. —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::{{ping|Cosmikdebris}} 49.182.47.130 cannot see the deleted page since he is not a sysop, and anyway she/he did not commented about it. I ask you for a third time: Please quote which parts of the deleted page are &quot;partisan, contentious, and controversial statements&quot;[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 16:44, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::It's right there in the name. Calling it a hoax. It's not hard to insinuate the rest of the page from there. In fact, I'll point out that even in your deleted quotes, all Trump has been doing is deflecting the question, and instead just says they ''should'' be condemned and his &quot;very fine people on both sides&quot; comment is the closest he gets to actually expressing a real moral judgement he can make, which... not a good look in the ''slightest'', so it's not a hoax to claim that this is his most direct value judgement on the neonazis on UtR. Anyway, this is a blatant [[PragerU]] talking point and we can debunk this into infinity if we really wanted to, but the BoN did it better than I ever could and that's without them even having to see the page. Get a bit more creative than repeating points made by hacks like Dennis Prager. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:46, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|The Crow}} Did you actually see the deleted page?[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 17:51, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I would personally have left the page in draft space. I saw it, I don't think it would have been worth keeping. While Trump did not directly call neo-nazis fine people and claimed that not everybody at the rally was a white supremacist (a hell of a stretch, because I can't imagine a cause where I'd be willing to attend the same demonstration as neo-nazis), we don't need an entire article dedicated to semantic arguments proving it. If you want to add a clarification to the Trump article or even [[Unite the Right]], you may do so- assuming the information isn't already there.--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 17:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::The problem with the page was two-fold. 1) It is not a hoax: Trump factually said it. At best, one could argue that it was quote mining by the media. 2) The reason that it was not even quote mining is that the UTR rally was created expressly to unite a diverse group of Nazi-aligned ''Arschlöcher''. So, Trump said there were some fine people among this group. It's not even quote mining because even ''The Daily Stormer'' called the whole bunch of groups Nazis. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&diff=2226696</id> <title>RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&diff=2226696"/> <updated>2020-09-15T21:41:27Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Should we hold a full vote to confirm the ban? */ <hr /> <div>{{mod talk header}} &lt;center&gt;[[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive_List|Archives for this page]]&lt;/center&gt; {{#tag:inputbox| bgcolor=transparent type=fulltext prefix=RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation break=yes width={{{width|60}}} searchbuttonlabel={{{label|Search the archives}}} }} [[File:Moderator.jpg|thumb]] __TOC__ &lt;!-- write below this line --&gt; == Requesting input on CS interpretation == Okay, I'll just keep this short. As a part of [[RW:BLOCK]], we forbid bigoted material being posted on the wiki, which warrants a block. To this end, I've attempted earlier today to clean up three Saloon threads because two BONs inserted blockable crap as threads (a Comicsgate website and a [[Ludwig von Mises Institute]] article that goes &quot;racism doesn't exist, but hating on men does&quot;) and the third one being a Steven Crowder video on how Trump deserves a Noble Peace Prize. I'm not here to ask about that last one, given it was duplicitous anyway. Rather, Hastur appears to have restored the other two, saying &quot;if I don't like it, just ignore it&quot;. What I am in effect asking here is that in the event that we block someone for posting bigoted crap, is it okay to then also ''remove'' the bigoted crap. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 19:57, 10 September 2020 (UTC) :I would argue that this particular BoN's posts don't meet the standard of what is block/removal worthy. If we can't handle a link to the Ludwig von Mises institute, we have a problem--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 20:20, 10 September 2020 (UTC) ::Agreed. {{User:GR/sig}} 20:21, 10 September 2020 (UTC) :::I am content with just placing the troll posts in a nice &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{collapse}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; block. —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:15, 10 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I disagree with the use of the collapse template. I think its use ought to be discouraged--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:16, 10 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Yeah, there is an excessive use with the collapse template. It should be used conservatively and, instead, it's used all the time. {{User:GR/sig}} 23:28, 10 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::We shouldn't be seen as giving a platform to people who say, &quot;racism doesn't exist but hating on men does&quot;. That definitely should have been collapsed. Don't worry about using the collapse template too much. If crap needs to be collapsed, collapse it. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 00:12, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Or don't be so stubborn and just revert it. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 00:30, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::: Or literally don't revert or remove it because the talk page policy states you may only remove &quot;obviously vile trolling&quot; and &quot;spam&quot;. Brx is right. In fact, nearly everything brx has said for months is right. What the fuck. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 03:38, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Yeah fuck man, what the fuck? Brx has gone from that vile bastard who shits on your lawn during their morning jog to a valued voice. It just shows how low some people have dragged this site when Brx becomes reasonable. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 04:04, 11 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::It's not my fault your lawn is so poorly maintained it looks like a gas station toilet--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 04:11, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::My God...next thing you know Satan will sin the Nobel Peace Prize!!! [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:26, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :I protected the Saloon Bar for 9 hours. I don't mind him spamming us a few times a week but clearly this troll must have gotten a particularly mean wedgie from the boys at school today, and feels the need to compensate for his insecurities extra hard. --[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:42, 11 September 2020 (UTC) ::Oh, so that's who Hastur is. I had wondered. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 05:57, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::That's Brx alright. Funny he used to be such an annoyance but now I kinda like him. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:20, 11 September 2020 (UTC) ::::You could also just clean up the shit on the floor, instead of letting it sit there and fester. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 02:30, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Oxyaena already being hostile/aggressive after getting sysop back. Hopefully the people who voted to give her sysop back will rein her in (sarcasm: they won't and they don't care). {{User:GR/sig}} 02:57, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I don't see how that's aggressive or hostile, but okay. It's just blunt, but, anyways, as always: {{dftt}}. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 03:21, 13 September 2020 (UTC) == Editwarring on the [[Leo Gura]] page == It's happening between two sysops (Machina and HairlessCat), and it has been going on for days now. Request input by the mods. {{User:GR/sig}} 00:48, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :Agree. We've already discussed on the talk page how it needs to be edited to be less verbose and that being a justified measure for change (I said I would edit it tomorrow). Although, I suspect Machina's changes are indeed more ideological in nature and not related to the prose at all, which'd be why Machina's not waiting a tad. [[User:HairlessCat|HairlessCat]] ([[User talk:HairlessCat|talk]]) 00:59, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::OK - I have protected the page as it is now. Hash it out on the talkpage please. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 01:18, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::{{ping|Machina}} You might want to respond to this here. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 01:22, 13 September 2020 (UTC) The additions I removed were more about legitimizing woo or crank ideas, so they weren't relevant to the topic. It's not important what drugs he took or what he felt as a result, especially since the only evidence for any of his claims is personal experience from drug use. The segment on the incompleteness theorems seems like a bid to led Leo's interpretation credibility even though the article linked mentions that such an interpretation is incorrect (in that case why include it). The study linked for psychedelics increasing rebellion is not what the study says at all. If it were Deepak I would slightly understand since he is a big name who literally influences far more than Leo. But that page rightly calls him out for what he is. The edits on the Leo page seem like they were either written by Leo or some apologist to give him some credibility when all he has is personal experience for his woo. The edits I took out were irrelevant to the whole topic, if others BESIDES Hairless feel that this is in error I will side with that judgment, especially if it's the mods. Otherwise I see no reason to admit I was wrong. I mean even the callout on the talk page shows Hairless is too close to the subject matter to give a clear view of it.[[User:Machina|Machina]] ([[User talk:Machina|talk]]) 02:26, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :A person having a mental breakdown that stops them from believing in woo is pretty important, and the Godel quote is actually meant to show where he is mistaken on that matter. This isn't a conspiracy to whitewash the page. I'll fix the prose evening ETC. On the sixteenth of September once things cool down. [[User:HairlessCat|HairlessCat]] ([[User talk:HairlessCat|talk]]) 14:42, 13 September 2020 (UTC) == Request for IP suppression in Edits == I mistakenly edited a page without logging in properly and left my IP on a page. Is it possible to delete it?--[[User:Nessundorma|Nessundorma]] ([[User talk:Nessundorma|talk]]) 03:07, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :Yes, but I think you are making it worse by notifying us. Otherwise it would just be a random IP editing a certain page and that be it. Unless there is a significant privacy risk, I don't think the mods or techs will heed your request, though. {{User:GR/sig}} 03:10, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::Easy fix. Just post the edit and we can make it like it never existed. Or email it if you want to take an extra measure of privacy--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 03:17, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Yeah, if you really want it removed, it's best to email the IP address to a moderator to make it less obvious, but if for some reason someone is watching recent edits, they might be able to figure it out anyway. Don't forget the [[Streisand effect]]. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 03:35, 13 September 2020 (UTC) == Raven == I request an interaction ban, he's going out of his way to troll me and, as per the terms of my probation, am requesting moderator assistance because I feel I can't handle this in a civil manner. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:13, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Saloon_bar&amp;curid=77683&amp;diff=2225557&amp;oldid=2225555 It would help if you didn't try to troll him]--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:15, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::{{dftt}} &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:18, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Not a mod, but Hastur, that doesn't really constitute &quot;trolling.&quot; Oxy is trying to abide by the terms of her probation. Grow up, please. [[User:RoninMacbeth|RoninMacbeth]] ([[User talk:RoninMacbeth|talk]]) 05:21, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::{{ec}}[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:Oxyaena&amp;curid=201740&amp;diff=2225636&amp;oldid=2224122 Why did you remove this?.] Anyways, de-escalation is one thing, but it's really the least we can ask of you to not try and needle Raven and then get offended when he responds in kind--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:22, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I asked why you egg Raven on, you said &quot;because it amuses me.&quot; You're no better than him. Get off your high horse please. You're actively hindering efforts to deescalate things. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:23, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I offer my observations. I derive amusement from all sorts of discourse. Adding commentary to your interactions with Godless Raven is much like adding commentary to WIGO:CP--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:28, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Grow up. Your &quot;observations&quot; only serve to inflame tensions even further. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:30, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Oxy, please try to just ignore Raven. I know your terms of probation are to inform mods instead of taking action yourself but please try to ignore Raven. Do not engage with him. That should be your first action to take rather than running straight to a mod. As a mod, and I don’t think I’ll be alone in this, I’d rather watch you be the bigger woman and walk away. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:49, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::To be clear, {{ping|Ace McWicked}}, Oxy attacked me first. Check Hastur's link. {{User:GR/sig}} 07:54, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::I don’t give a fucking shit who fucking attacked who. Raven, just fucking ignore and refuse to engage Oxy. Oxy, stay the fuck away from Raven. Jesus fucking Christ - this is like moderating my 6 year old daughter. At least she understands enough to stay away from the kids that are mean to her. What’s your fucking excuse? [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:14, 13 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} Yeah, bothsiding this won't help. Treating the reactor the same way you treat the instigator is a bit smoothbrained. but eh, sure, I'll stay &quot;away&quot; from Oxy. Don't forget that she is on probation, not me. {{User:GR/sig}} 09:09, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :Raven, for awhile there I was totally on your side. But no longer. Stop. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 09:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::I would like to see a solution that ends this endless fighting/cooping/pleading-for-rights-restoration. I don't think I'm the only one who's quite tired of it. If the solution is a stay-away agreement that both parties agree to, that's great. Otherwise, I would support whatever it takes: permanent sysoprevoke for one or both parties, or permaban. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 16:19, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::I don't think that's necessary, the whole reason I came here was because of me abiding by the terms of my probation. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:24, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Then why did you remove it, {{ping|Oxyaena}}? [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:Oxyaena&amp;diff=2225636&amp;oldid=2224122] This was part of the probation that you were supposed to undergo. {{ping|Bongolian}} The permaban was rejected by the mob in the last coop. If you want, you can start a coop to sysoprevoke me, but that would be quite funny because I didn't abuse my sysop tools to sysoprevoke me in the first place (unlike Oxy, who, according to Nutty's stats, has systemically abused it). {{User:GR/sig}} 17:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::{{ping|Ace McWicked}} &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 17:37, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I just want to point out that my recommendation of adding it to her profile page was just that, a recommendation so both she and the mods wouldn't forget. It wasn't ever added to the sanctions, so she's technically not required to do it since it's not a part of her sanctions (can't say why she'd remove it tho...). Anyway, GR, please stop stirring shit just because you don't like Oxy, or else you could be looking at an interaction ban, because you're just stirring shit up to get her angry. Hell, even ''Ace'' told you to stop doing this on your talkpage and here we are ''again'' on what I'm pretty sure is just the same subject. Cut it out. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:46, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Crow, nobody asked you. Shut up. {{User:GR/sig}} 18:12, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Crow is right. Just because nobody asked doesn’t mean crow can’t have an opinion. Raven, you’re burning any good will you had. Move on, fucking end it. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 18:15, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Raven. Stop. Leave Oxy alone. Do something else. Jerk smack, go for a walk, whatever else you want to do - you’re not making friends here. Just stay the fuck away from Oxy. Oxy, please do the same. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 17:55, 13 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}Yes, the permaban was rejected before, but given the frequent history of you two appearing in the coop, there's a reasonable likelihood that you're both going to burn all the good will you had to reinstate you. I'm not planning to coop either of you. I'm just saying that you two should stop causing shit shows for your own good. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:55, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :I`m merely abiding by my probation terms. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 18:59, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::Oh I really like that term &quot;jerk smack&quot;. Urban dictionary has an extremely descriptive definition of the term. It's quiet evocative and I dare say even poetic. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:09, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Urban dictionary is wrong. To jerk smack means to shoot up heroin. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 19:49, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Interaction ban that goes both ways would be acceptable to me. It'd be better if GR and Oxy would do it voluntarily without involving the mob. My respect for the first of the two to stop responding to the other ones provocations will increase exponentially. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 19:16, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I do think that you could've handled this better Ace. Perhaps a polite request to GR to stay away from Oxy, followed by a request that Oxy also do the same with GR would've gone down better? I can see Oxy's point, and I fail to see why she needs to stay the fuck away from GR. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:57, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Ace doesn't do politeness really well. But other than that [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:GR&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2225701| he did exactly] [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Oxyaena&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2225704| what you asked there.] {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 21:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::{{ping|Kiko4564}} If I was impolite it is only because this has been going on for ages. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 00:14, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Yeah fuck this burning trashfire. lol {{User:GR/sig}} 02:05, 14 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}Another day, another 'retirement'. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 02:20, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :We should start up a scoreboard for the most fake retirements. Maybe we can even offer a free t-shirt for whoever has the record by 2025![[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:44, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::I’m proud to say in my 12 years at RW I’ve never pulled a LANCB. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 05:38, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::Well if you're interested in experimenting a few of us could harass the shit out of you until you LANCB! Limited time offer. Just say the word :) [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:10, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::That wouldn’t work on me - I can give it back twice as hard and secondly I’m adept at ignoring it. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:26, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Really? Even if I call you a big stinky doe-head? [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:03, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Suggested prizes for most number of LANCBs ::::*First Prize: permaban (wish granted) ::::*Second Prize: sysoprevoke for life (next best thing) ::::*Third Prize: 1 week block (longer than you have probably ever LANCBed) ::::*Participation Prize: free joke block, chosen by a committee of never-LANCBers ::::[[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:19, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I'd say those prizes are generous. Are you personally funding them out of your own wallet Bongolian? [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:03, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Agreed, LANCB is now a cliche in my opinion. It should be LAMCB (Leave And Maybe Come Back), as that would actually mean something. Thanks for your politeness, and civility when dealing with Oxy, Ace. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 10:40, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::SABWBBTW is maybe more accurate (Storming Away But Will Be Back This Week) [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:41, 14 September 2020 (UTC) == Request to inconvenience an ip range == Particularly there's a persistent ip address in Saloon Bar with string 2001:8003:59DB:4100 that's spamming right wing links. Can we get a 1-week range block to inconvenience it? I prefer this over a page protection. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 07:21, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't have an objection per se, but it would simpler to put a 1-week protection on the Saloon since that would not require a vote. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:30, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :: I've seen an ip and a relative new user use that page, so I'm a bit hesitant barring them. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 07:40, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::A vote is required? That seems absurd to me. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 10:38, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I would vote in favor of a short range-block, if I can be assured a range block won't blot out a whole city or something--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 10:39, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I would vote Aye too, but I'm not an eligible voter. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 10:49, 14 September 2020 (UTC) 2001:8003::/32 seems to be the range. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Block/2001:8003:0:0:0:0:0:0/32 I note it has been blocked before.] {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 21:11, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :If a range block is unacceptable, what about using the edit filter to limiting this range's edits to once a day?--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:25, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::This works too; just do anything that can limit the ease of sharing links. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 01:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::How about the vandal bin for this IP range? That way it will be limited to editing once every so often. I know this isn't normal, but this is an IP range, not just a single BoN. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:38, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::We never vandal bin IPs. People in the bin stay there indefinitely until someone cares to remove them. Too easy to accidentally leave IPs in there forever, which can impact innocent people. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) == Was I ever banned from this wiki? == See the discussion [[User_talk:DuceMoosolini#Smith|here]]. To make a long story short: one admin &quot;D&quot; started blocking my accounts as well as blocking many accounts I ''don't'' own (incorrectly tagging them under my name) after I confronted them about their behaviour and harassment a year back. As far as I'm aware there was no consensus to actually ban me from RationalWiki (or if there was it was manipulated by &quot;D&quot;), secondly, the ban doesn't work because I add valuable content on new accounts (I've been editing on Flight for 10 days and have already [[Patriotic Alternative|made]] [[Laura Towler|three]] [[Spiteful mutant hypothesis|articles]]) and come back and do the same thing on a new account — when I feel there is an important page that needs to be added to this wiki — like the [[Spiteful mutant hypothesis]]. If someone wants to take a look at what the harassment I confronted &quot;D&quot; about looks like (that has been going on now for ''over a year'') they can see [https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiInAction/comments/ggmjv5/banned_wikipedia_troll_captain_occam_real_name/fqr3bjk/?context=3 here] (&quot;D&quot;s Reddit account is virtually dedicated to libel): {{quotebox|Furthermore, the claim that Smith is mostly retired is contradicted by the many hundreds of accounts he's created on RationalWiki. Around 80 accounts a year since 2013. I don't necessarily have a feud with Oliver Smith beyond the fact he's a '''nationalist, anti-natalist, XXXXXXXXX, serial doxxer, cyber-harrasser, XXXXXXXXX etc'''. It would be truly difficult to imagine how I would even start character assassinating such an obnoxious person, he does it himself by simply existing.}} Needless to say none of these defamatory claims are true but I've had to deal with this crazy person run across the internet for the past year calling me everything from a paedophile, child abuser, child rapist, transphobe, psychopath, fascist, nationalist or far-right extremist on not only Reddit, but Discord, wiki-related forums and allegedly in emails where they are libelling me to others. Note &quot;D&quot; is not even consistent with the lies they post about me, for example they claimed on Reddit I created 80 accounts a year since 2013 (560 accounts) yet contradict themselves on a recent [[User_talk:DuceMoosolini#Smith|talk page]] claiming I own approximately 150. What happened to the other 400 accounts? [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:01, 14 September 2020 (UTC) : For clarification I've owned around three dozen accounts since 2012. Claims of hundreds of accounts, 150 or 560 are a wild exaggeration.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:48, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::Contrary to the quick closure done by {{ping|D}}, I want to point out that there has been no due process for Smith. Rather, Smith appears to have been speedily banned after he [[RationalWiki:Articles_for_deletion/Emil_Kirkegaard|filed AfDs for pages he created]], after admitting he'd gotten into legal trouble with some idiots and he didn't want RW to get into trouble. Dysk seems to then have gone and banned him outside of the mob, which in accordance with basic CS rules meant it had to be raised and '''voted on by the mob''' to get Smith permanently banned. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus While it was raised in ATIM], there was never any consensus reached on getting Smith banned. As a result, I feel that Smith does not currently preside under the rules that would constitute a permanent block, and it would be desirable for the mob to consider doing that vote now, because as is, there is no grounds to block Smith or any of his alts. Furthermore, I also call into question the competence of {{ping|D}}, who in this link appears to have admitted to using the Edit Filter as an outright alternative to CheckUser (tech rights technically allow for this, yes I need to bother David over this and yes I've been lazy in doing that), which is a fairly blatant abuse of rights given our rules surrounding the fact that we don't use CU and using AbuseFilter as a way around this is scummy as fuck. ::Finally, {{ping|Bongolian}} there is no need to block out &quot;XXXXXXXXX&quot; and &quot;XXXXXXXXX&quot; here. These are words Dysk said on that subreddit. I've undone the suppression of those edits. ::Because I was not specifically involved in whatever incident originally led to Smith getting his ass kicked (from what I know, not many a tear was shed over his departure), I will personally refrain from voting for this, but we have to respect basic procedure here. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:45, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::''who in this link appears to have admitted to using the Edit Filter as an outright alternative to CheckUser'' I've long thought this was the case. In which case - anyone using the edit filter to check IP's should have tech rights removed immediately. I suspect Oxy used this feature too. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 20:35, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::I do not like Smith, and will openly state that I would vote to ban him if it came to that. However, it is better to go through the proper procedures, lest a mistake allow him and his drama to remain. {{User:GrammarCommie/sig}} 18:00, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::{{Modhat}} The citation that was given by does not contain that text. It is indeed potentially libelous, as we don't know with absolute — just reasonable — certainty that this is the same Smith person. Reinstating the text is inadvisable, to say the least, because I hid the edits that showed it. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:39, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::It does contain that text. In fact, it's a literal cite (the only change is the removal of a newline, which might just have been the result from copy and pasting) from /u/Dysklyver (which is rather obviously Dysks' reddit handle). I would argue that we can say with enough absolute certainity that this is the same Smith, given that this user is arguing that he shouldn't be blocked, and his arguments are based on the assumption that he is Smith (which combined with his spiel on Duce's talkpage would indicate that he is Smith), which would be really weird if he wasn't actually Smith. Anyway, to prevent wheel warring, I won't bother to undo these suppressions. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 19:03, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::From what I have seen Dysklyver was originally on friendly terms with Smith. Dysklyver then became a close friend of [[Abd Lomax]] (who is banned here) and Lomax turned Dysklyver against Smith. On Reddit there has been a Dysklyver/Abd war against Smith and vise versa going on for over a year. They create countless petty threads against each other with accusations of sock-puppetry. Dysklyver has tech rights and he can see the IP address/s of created accounts on here. D has got a list of IP addresses from RationalWiki accounts which he claims match to Smith's geographical location (he's admitted this in a Reddit post) so he can apparently identify Smith by private IP data. Abd has repeatedly published private IP data on his website accusing Smith of owning hundreds of sock-puppets on this website. This is obviously a privacy violation. Mikemikev also has a history of impersonating Smith and he is also somehow involved in this drama. :::::: Abd is a prolific sock-puppeteer himself, and globally banned from Wikipedia for doxing users. I don't trust any of his data. Dysklyver/Smith are both good editors. The real issue here is Abd Lomax, he appears to have a heavy influence over Dysklyver and responsible for the Dysklyver/Smith drama. BTW I am somehow loosely connected to this 'drama' by Lomax who still accuses me of being Smith and posts about 1 million essays on his website about my account, however unlike other users he has accused of being Smith I have never engaged any of his nonsense off this website. I don't care what people write, but private IP data thing is out of order. Abd is untrustworthy and should not be given private IP data or logs from this website. The man is a menace. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 21:44, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ===Should we hold a full vote to confirm the ban?=== {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 18:35, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :No. Oliver Smith was permabanned. If Smith wants to appeal that ban, that was entirely the wrong way to go about it. If he thinks he was unjustly banned, he should: :#Take any off-wiki disputes with D or anyone else elsewhere, and not bring them up here. :#Confess to all of his puppet accounts and list them out: they were all ban evasions. :#Give a full explanation of why he thinks he was unjustly banned, including thorough citations. :[[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 19:16, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::Oliver Smith was not permabanned in accordance with our CS. He was blocked outside of our regular procedures by Dysk and aftewards there was no vote on him getting blocked, just some amount of yes-nodding and the closest to a consensus was a private agreement between Oxy and RWRW. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 19:20, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::The community standards weren't as rigorously enforced back then, RW was a different place. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 19:32, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::For anyone wondering, this 'agreement' between myself and Oxy is referenced to [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus here]. It was something like 18 months ago so I can't remember the conversation, but I don't deny that it probably happened. I don't think there was ever a formal vote to ban Smith so in a sense Crow is right about that, in a sense he's just been considered 'de-facto' banned. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 19:35, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::What was the first Smith account that was banned? I thought it was much older than 18 months ago. David Gerard banned an account years ago for impersonating Smith (it was Mikemikev according to him). [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 19:40, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Earliest Smith account that I've found was User:Krom, which was abandoned in 2015. I can't find any Smith account that was permabanned before February 2019 by Dysk (though I could be mistaken, he's had so many different accounts that it isn't easy to keep on top). {{Ping|D}} might know if there was any more. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 20:13, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::: D can see IP addresses on here for accounts so I am not sure how that works in regard to privacy, it can't really &quot;work&quot; because it is a violation of privacy. Can he check old edits and logs and get IP data from accounts created years ago? On most wikis CU data goes to about 6 months at the most, but I am guessing this is different. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 22:11, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Techs can only see IPs of users who proc the filter, which from what I know doesn't have expiring logs. (And yes this needs to be fixed.) I can't say for certain right now, in part because I obviously can't publicly spell out our anti spam tools (would be circumventable), whether or not any Techs have made lasting filters that would log every edit/account creation. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 22:36, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::: I believe it has been misused and there is a privacy violation. Dysk has admitted to collecting private IP data on Smith's RationalWiki accounts. Various private data and logs were sent to Abd Lomax (Lomax is a mod on Dysk/EK's discord). How do we know other private data is not being leaked off this website? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 22:45, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::We need to hide IP's even from techs. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 23:13, 14 September 2020 (UTC) : There are untrue claims by Dysk I use VPNs or TOR. I've never used one or tried to conceal my home IP-address here or anywhere else and anyone who can check IPs will see I'm not using a VPN now. Also note if you go back years I used to edit here publicly on my home-IP. That wouldn't make any sense if I was a VPN/TOR user trying to hide it. As for listing incorrect reasons for why I was banned - I did that on another page and this has been mentioned above by The Crow - the block was outside of regular procedures by Dysk/EK/Ox on Discord. The account they banned was [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Tobias Tobias] in May 2019 based on false allegations I doxed EK who Dysk has claimed is their sister. I never did dox, but linked to EK's public Wikipedia blocked account. According though to EK/Dysk the fact I posted a Wikipedia url is &quot;malicious doxxing&quot;. I suggest mods who can look through striked (deleted) content see [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Tobias my edits]. To summarise I was banned for no valid reason whatsoever. All the other accounts of mine Dysk has blocked such as Krom came after Tobias.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:17, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::Are we burying the lede here? People have been using edit filter to gain IP Address information? This is about as anti-RW as it gets and you lot are just going to gloss over that? [[Special:Contributions/203.54.149.190|203.54.149.190]] ([[User talk:203.54.149.190|talk]]) 00:45, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I am with the BoN here. RW has been '''strictly and stridently''' opposed to IP checking since it's inception. Anyone doing so should be kick-banned immediately with prejudice. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 00:48, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Well it is too late now, it's been going on for about six months or so, maybe longer. I know this issue has been raised several times before on here but no action was taken. I have only just realized how bad this is. The geezers who run this website need to be informed. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 01:11, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I believe that we went over this issue before, separately with both D and Oxy, who both denied that it took place. If anyone has any evidence to the contrary, let's have it. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 01:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I looked through the edit filters. I don’t see anything that looks like a pseudo-checkuser. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 01:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::OK - cool. I'll take your word for it. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 02:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::D has admitted to using filter IP data to ban a number of alleged Smith accounts. I've seen the filters, and though I haven't gone through the log data to confirm any blocked IP addresses appear there, I'm not sure why I'd doubt his claim. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 02:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) Mhm let's see; :- I blocked a lot of accounts and IP addresses as sockpuppets of Smith over a year or so following the doxing incidents. The vast majority of these were admitted accounts, with a few blocks based on obvious behavioural similarities. :- While at the time of blocking the relevant accounts I was unaware of the fact IP addresses were visible I later discovered this by accident, and mostly out of curiosity, used this feature to check the IP-Data on several accounts I'd blocked in the past. :- The IP-Data appears to remain recorded forever, I looked at some random edit filter events from the distant past and the IP-Data is still there. :- I considered this for a while to be a potentially useful stand-in for checkuser, although I never used it at such as it was unnecessary to do so, somewhat difficult to use, plus I felt that was likely to be not appreciated by others (despite not being technically against the rules). :- I later used the fact I'd seen several items of IP-Data, to tell Smith to fuck off and stop lying on Reddit during an argument. Smith's reaction was as if I had access to a Checkuser equivalent tool, and in the absence of any documentation explaining how limited this feature is, I encouraged that thought to wind him up. :- Despite John's claims, Abd has never seen any IP-Data, isn't a mod on any relevant Discord, and no IP-Data from this site has ever been externally recorded. Indeed except on a few occasions nobody has bothered to even look at it. :- While Oxyaena was a Tech here she became aware of the method to access IP-Data, and used it to check the IPs of Morris accounts to an unknown extent, I never asked for details on this. :- In some attempt to fix this edit filter loophole, I posted on David's talk page nearly four months on 18th June asking for this to be fixed, it has not been fixed at time of writing, IP-Data is visible to any Tech that wants to see it, although I haven't personally bothered for many months. :- Some months ago, when I'm not sure exactly, I discussed this on Discord and it was agreed to be a major site security flaw. Although only those with shell access can fix it, me and Ze later closed many edit filters to the bare minimum to avoid users tripping them unnecessarily. For example no Autoconfirmed, Autopatrolled, or Sysop flagged user will trip a filter. :- I have discussed the IP-Data concerns on Discord with numerous users, including The Crow, Nutty, Oxyaena, in addition to informing David who replied to my comment about it 4 months ago and is aware of the issue. I believe this covers the main points of discussion, if I missed anything let me know, I'll reply when I get back here at a later date. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 06:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I fucking knew Oxy was IP checking. I knew she was lying. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 06:53, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :{{ec}}I see that you raised [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:David_Gerard&amp;diff=2194294&amp;oldid=2154282 such concerns] around the same time that you [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:David_Gerard&amp;diff=2194294&amp;oldid=2154282 admitted to checking IPs.] I'll admit, I'm conflicted about all of this. On the one hand you're competent as a tech and seem to have a genuine interest in improving the site. However, abusing the trust of the community to see other users' IP addresses is a serious issue. I shall await to hear further arguments before throwing in any sort of judgement. It would help if you could 1. explain your relation to Abd and 2. explain why you've been banned by Wikipedia et al. Some may see this as irrelevant offsite drama but personally I feel that the more knowledge we have the better we'll be able to make decisions.--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 06:56, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::{{ping|Hastur}} Abd is a friend, I was banned from Wikipedia for trolling the admin pages. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::It would be useful for {{ping|David Gerard}} confirm this information to the extant that he can, and to hear his opinion if he cares to give it. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I have no idea about any of this and haven't even verified that the edit filter method of IP checking works - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 16:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I never checked shit, you're all basing this off hearsay by Dysk. I never checked IPs, I don't even know how to for Christ's sake. Fuck you, {{ping|Ace McWicked}}. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 07:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Why are you angry at me? I'm going by Dysk. Be mad at him. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Okay so since I spend some amount of time yesterday looking at filters to see if there are any &quot;strange&quot; ones that might have the goal of blocking users randomly, I feel like I can step in here to point out a few things. :::::* Oxy became aware of this while being a tech, by learning about it from Ze, who apparently learned it from you, who claimed at the time that you &quot;showed me but its not that easy to use&quot;, although I cannot verify whether she figured it specifically how to do it. Unfortunately, whether or not she used it to check Morris' IP addresses, I am not sure (I will add that she vehemently rejects doing it, but also see my last bullet). The unfortunate part is that if you have access to the Filter, you have access to the IPs (again can and should be blocked). There is no rights elevation or anything needed to see this at the moment. I can at least ensure the following things: :::::* There have not been any blanket filters designed to catch literally everyone, no matter what for more than 60 minutes. Some have existed, but looking at history and how they ended up, these appear more of a case of hitting submit too soon rather than deliberate right abuses. Basically, [[Hanlon's razor|don't assume malice to that which can be adequately explained by stupidity]]. :::::* There are no logs for looking at filter logs themselves, which I suppose makes sense, but it means we cannot audit if someone looked at IPs by looking at the filter log. :::::* There ''are'' a few strange filters, one of which appears to still be active today, which simply tag users with a specific tag, but don't do much else, which appears weird at first but on second thought appears to be based around the obsessions of certain users. To be clear, most of that filter appears to be fairly generic &quot;this is likely vandalism&quot; stuff, it's just that there are a couple of words which appear to be designed to catch certain types of blocked users, some of whom are related to the case at hand. :::::* Did Dysk conclusively access user IPs? Well, I'll leave that up to the rest of the mob to decide. The filters history is mostly circumstantial evidence, I'll freely admit. On Reddit, he claimed that he did. Here, he claims that he didn't. I can't find any conclusive logs that he did. That said, being in a position where you ''can'' access this stuff, it usually is a bad idea to claim you did, so it's best to not go around parading that you accessed any users' IP, which arguably Dysk violated. YMMV. :::::Hope this answers some of the questions that a lot of people appear to be having. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 07:39, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::: {{ping|D}} the discord I am talking about is called &quot;The Treehouse&quot; (also known as the Wikipediocracy discord) which you and ZE invited Abd to and made him a mod on. The original discord was made for banned Wikipedia editors or critics of that said website but it has since branched out for general discussions. Abd wrote in regard to yourself and this discord &quot;''I was '''invited''' to join the Wikipediocracy Discord, and that is where I was given mod status. Nice people!''&quot; (you can Google search this quote from Abd to find it as I don't wanna link to his hack website). In this discord server there a place called &quot;The Smithery&quot; you created, where ZE, yourself and your friend Abd do &quot;researches&quot; into Smith and his alleged RationalWiki accounts. I don't think we should deny these facts. Anyone can log in there and verify these things. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 18:17, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::{{ping|Johns}} I'd like to see evidence of what you wrote about this &quot;Treehouse&quot; if you don't mind, I don't recollect it, could be the LSD... {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:38, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :No I don't think we should hold a full vote. I wouldn't support a ban if I could vote, I can't as I'm new here, but I don't think we need a coop either. This isn't a case of HCM, this is a case of someone allegedly called Smith (a banned user) allegedly returning under a new identity to allegedly evade his ban, and avoid scrutiny. We just need a summary investigation of this allegation, and appropriate action taken. If this guy is Smith, he is a banned user, and he is returning to evade his ban, then we just need appropriate action taken. Otherwise no further action is necessary. As Bongolian claims to be sure that this guy is Smith, I would say that he can go ahead and take action himself, providing that he is sure i.e. satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that this guy is Smith, and that he is evading a ban. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:46, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::That guy claimed he was Smith. I have no other evidence. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Checkuser/IP checking=== Dysk has said he used it and Oxy used it. Oxy denied it however we [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive16#Checkuser have this exchange] where Oxy was very vague about it. Plus Oxy's frequent blocks of Morris as ban evasion which she did on ''multiple'' occasions. It doesn't look good. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:44, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't see what's &quot;vague&quot; about it, I was grasping at straws there. I never used checkuser. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 08:06, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I’m not talking about checkuser - I’m asking about using the edit filters to match IP’s which a) can be done b) you alluded to during an exchange and c) Dysk claims you have used it. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I never used it. I lied about using it. LGM saw that clearly. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 08:17, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::So it’s possible, you knew it was possible, said you had used then said you lied about it, now Dysk says you have used. A lot of conflicting claims and circumstances...this filter needs to be closed at once and I don’t think Oxy, Dysk or EK should be techs again. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:22, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::{{ping|Spud}}, {{ping|RWRW}}, {{ping|Bongolian}} - some more mod input would be good here. I think we need these edit filters closed and new techs appointed. It just ain’t good enough as it stands. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:44, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Yes, it looks almost certain that Dysk and Ze know how to use the edit filter to view IPs. I'll say that Oxy's version is difficult to believe given that Dysk claims she knew how to do it and she herself once said she knew how to do it. To his credit Dysk did inform David, but this is many months after these IP checking accusations started floating around. :::::::Crow's post above mentions that a suspicious edit filter is still active, it seems to have no useful purpose and should be closed right away. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 10:22, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Man, I’ve been poking around this issue for a whole fucking year. It’s the whole reason I came back because something didn’t seem right. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} It's not possible to access the edit filter details page without seeing the IP it's on the same page and you need to check the details page to check for false positives. The problem isn't that techs see the IP address as every tech who worked on the edit filter will have done that, the problem is whether that information was used to identify who owned various vandal accounts, or whether that's a conspiracy theory started by Dysk and Oxy playing troll games with Smith and Morris. Also new techs won't change anything because the information is still there and peeps will still see it. As for closing the edit filters, I can if you want but you will have to deal with the 15k spam bots posting ads everywhere. {{User:Ze/?}} 09:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :So when Oxy (Or any other tech) says they don’t know how to view IPs that is incorrect and they see them as a matter of course? It’s what you do with the info - I.e IP matching - that is the issue? And what do you mean about a conspiracy re: troll games? I’m just trying to understand how this works. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 09:34, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::The only way to not see the IP address is to not visit the details page, which would imply not bothering to check if the filter is working or not. A tech could avoid seeing the IP address if they weren't doing anything new with the edit filter tho because then they don't have to check. ::What I mean by troll games is that Dysk has always said his reddit posts are just to annoy people so aren't necessarily accurate imo, meanwhile oxy openly admitted above to lying in her comments about the edit filter and morris so that's probably not accurate either ::the vast majority of the time troll accounts don't trip the filter so imho it's not actually possible to use it as a checkuser type tool anyway and anyone claiming they have is vastly exaggerating what they can do with it. I've used checkuser on other wikis and it gives a lot more information including browser and device and cross referencing with other accounts by IP and metadata and without that you cant do anything useful. An IP address on its own is basically useless, so unless someone collected a lot of them, which would need a broad filter we dont have, there is no checkuser like capability. ::the IP addresses shouldn't be visible tho this needs to be fixed asap and the fact it's been brought up several times before and nothing happened is cringe. {{User:Ze/?}} 10:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Right - what I’m trying to establish is in what way tech rights can be abused given we have techs guilty of rights abuse in the past (Oxy is one of these - she has been put in sysoprevoke for such issues). Yes - this IP issue needs cleaning up immediately and I think Oxy and Dysk should never hold those positions again. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::My point is that nobody has abused the tech rights in relation to this. One of the root users at some point granted techs the ability to see private IP data, but no techs have collected or published it so the point is moot. If the point is that seeing the IP data is abuse then the blame lies with the root user who enabled it (probably trent) not with the techs doing their appointed task subsequently. {{User:Ze/?}} 10:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::OK, well I’ll be careful around accusations of abuse - I just wanted to know if it could be abused. And it has annoyed me that subsequent techs (in particular Oxy) have been very... murky and vague, when asked direct questions. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:39, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::I think there is the potential for the tech access to IP addresses to be abused and at various points Dysk and Oxy did intend to use it as a checkuser but this didn't happen mostly because it doesn't give enough information to be useful. The lack of information on the filter is mostly because nobody talks about it openly as people would read it and circumvent it if they knew exactly how it worked. {{User:Ze/?}} 10:49, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Well, if Dysk and Oxy discussed using it in this manner then they would have been actively tried to subvert one of RW strongest codes of ethics. If true - it’s no fucking joke... [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:52, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Is there any evidence you can provide that Dysk and Oxy discussed using an edit filter or something similar to create a checkuser type of ability? [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} Yes I can prove it, Dysk posted it on this page even: ::''I considered this for a while to be a potentially useful stand-in for checkuser, although I never used it at such as it was unnecessary to do so, somewhat difficult to use, plus I felt that was likely to be not appreciated by others (despite not being technically against the rules).'' In [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226423&amp;oldid=2226377 this] post. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:10, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::And Oxy? You said at various points - you mean away from the community eye I take it and without the communities knowledge? I’m finally putting some pieces of a puzzle together that I started putting together a year ago - this is why I am interested. I may be brusque, drunk, swear all the time but I have RWs rich history and traditions at heart - and IP matching/checkuser/anonymity is a huge deal. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I have uploaded [[:File:FilterDetailView.png]] and [[:File:FilterLogView.png]] for clarity. I recognize that this is a conversation that a lot of non-techs will be looking into, and as a result they might not be aware on how the interface looks (for reference, clicking details in the LogView image sends you to the DetailView image in the actual interface, and examine lets you run other filters against certain edits for testing). I've censored as much identifying information as possible to prevent this from getting tied back to any user in particular (the only visible thing is the specific filter they triggered, which uh... this is one of our public filters although it got disabled earlier today). One thing not really visible here is that you can filter the Log view specific to the user on whom an action was taken, on what page they attempted something and what filter might have been triggered. I hope this helps clarify a thing or two for any non-techs poking in. I've marked relevant information to this situation with a red background. Before anyone jumps my gun, I used a BON edit for this example, so y'all don't have to be scared I'm looking at your IPs or whatever. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 11:22, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::OK - as it stand I think {{ping|Oxyaena}} and {{ping|D}} have to answer some questions here. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::There are Discord channels with combined nearly 3 million posts dedicated to this site that you never really got involved in. All the existing mods and techs hang out on Discord and routinely talk about the site, even new techs like Crow are heavy discord users. So if you define the community as just the wiki then yes 90% or more of the decisions and talk are happening elsewhere. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::I joined Discord a few months back because I heard rumours about what was being said behind closed doors. This has always happened in one form or another of course but it seems Discord had a shadow “steering committee”. So I joined. Note for the community - I have talked about this issue, the techs and IP matching in Discord, and have strenuously advised that all discussion about this be made on wiki for the sake of transparency. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:45, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::You joined the support chat and maybe the old main chat(?) there are multiple channels that you aren't on where as much or more disscussion happens. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:55, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Well, shit man. I can’t be every where at once. Either way - my position is the same - all RW business should be discussed here. You wanna bitch about a user on Discord? Go for it. But policy reminds on RW always. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:57, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::Anyway - midnight here and I have work tomorrow. I’m sure there’ll be plenty for me to read tomorrow. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:59, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::I was interested in it and thought it may be worthwhile, I wasn't aware such a thing was that big of a deal. I never actually went through with it however. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 13:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::::So what I've said is still true. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 13:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::::Oxy, you're full of shit - I don't think you should ever hold tech again and this will be the reason. Can someone, anyone, actually address getting the edit filter fixed? {{ping|Ze}}, {{ping|David Gerard}}, {{ping|Spud}}. Fucking anyone? [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 21:05, 15 September 2020 (UTC) == The page I created was deleted == {{ping|Jeh2ow}} deleted the page I created: ([https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Log/delete Deletion log]) 11:25, 15 September 2020 Jeh2ow (talk | contribs) deleted page Draft:Very fine people Hoax (Hopelessly off-mission: Extremely false) It doesn't seem to me that the [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Deleting rules about deletion] were followed, and anyway I dispute the deletion. I have a partial backup of the page, missing the last section. Also, I cannot write in the Saloon Bar anymore, I don't know if it is related to this matter.[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 12:17, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|Pam}} Even if Trump never said that Nazis were fine people (which he did, mind you), this still is a hopelessly off-mission topic and isn't really helpful to RationalWiki. I just had to deal with a regressive leftist who compared [[Stephen Fry]] to [[Osama bin Laden]], and I need a break to focus on my classwork. Don't even think about restoring this page.&lt;span&gt;— [[User:Jeh2ow|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;'''Jeh2ow'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk: Jeh2ow|&lt;font color=&quot;Blue&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Damn son!&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 13:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::{{ping|Pam}} Saloon Bar was protected by LGM yesterday due to excessive spamming. Only Autoconfirmed users can edit for the next few days. Apologies for the inconvenience. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 13:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::User doesn't have sysop or any other rights, so they can't recreate the page. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 13:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|Jeh2ow}} Trump did not say that Nazis were fine people. The page you deleted had a detailed analysis proving so, by showing the video and transcript of the conference. But of course it is impossible to have a discussion about that if you literally delete the arguments of one interlocutor. What you had to deal with Stephen Fry and your classwork is unrelated and you should not bring it to this thread. :Anyway, there are rules about pages deletion and I think there have not been respected. Also, I should be allowed to dispute a deletion by showing to other users and moderators the actual content of the page, while now I cannot. [[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 14:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :The article makes a fair point about something the media has gotten wrong for obvious reasons, and frankly I think it's at least as tangentially missional as stuff people have gotten in big fights over here, but it will likely stay deleted for reasons. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 14:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::The material in the deleted draft warrants no more than a brief mention in [[Donald Trump]] or [[Rhetoric of Donald Trump]], and certainly not a standalone article. As written, the draft made partisan, contentious and controversial statements. —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:11, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::{{ping|Nutty Roux}}{{ping|Cosmikdebris}} How can you see the deleted page? Is there some backup on RW? I ask because I cannot see how any discussion about the deletion of the page can be done if people cannot see the page that was deleted. :::{{ping|Nutty Roux}} What reasons? :::{{ping|Cosmikdebris}} What &quot;partisan, contentious and controversial statements&quot; did I make? Quote some of them.[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 15:34, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::{{ping|Pam}} Sysops can check &quot;deleted user contributions&quot;. Even suppressed contributions can be seen by mods or techs. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 15:50, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Pam, everyone but you can see the page because they're sysops. Cosmikdebris' assertion is it contained partisan, contentious, and controversial statements. No point in arguing with facts or asking him to demonstrate his claims because you're a new user and he's not. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 15:54, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :All right, so at least sysops can see the deleted page. :{{ping|Nutty Roux}} I know Cosmikdebris' assertion is that the page contained partisan, contentious, and controversial statements, why are you repeating that to me? I asked Cosmikdebris to quote statements that she/he believe to be &quot;partisan, contentious, and controversial statements&quot;. I doubt new users cannot ask to argue with facts. Also, you did not answered my question: &quot;What reasons?&quot; [[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 16:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I hear this one a lot so I don’t wanna spend a long time refuting it. If you wanna watch a YouTube video [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4T45Sbkndjc this one] does that for me pretty well. Otherwise, I’ll just outline the arguments quickly and then not participate any further in the discussion bc it’s been done to death. 1) The “very fine people” thing was not the first thing trump said about the protestors — he previously gave a speech in which he didn’t identify or specifically condemn the nazi types at all, and only gave the “fine people” speech where he did condemn them several days later. 2) I can’t see the deleted article so idk what (if any) news sources it cites, but the ones from reputable sources (eg NYT, NPR, whatever) that did call him out do, in fact, mention that he said “I don’t mean the nazis” and quote him saying so. 3) The UtR rally was explicitly organised as a far-right/neo-nazi/neo-confederate rally — take a look at the guest speakers, organisers, and advertisements for it for evidence. 4) There were no “fine people”/non-racists there, because non-racists don’t show up to protect a confederate statue and then march along with huge quantities of nazi symbols, slogans, confederate flags, Richard Spencer, David Duke, and so on. 5) Drawing any kind of equivalence between that kind of rally and the people protesting them is egregious and fucked. 6) The news sources calling out trump’s bullshit mention these things and these are the specific problems they have with him. So put simply, the media didn’t get it wrong, Trump only condemned the racists after previously refusing to, the rally was explicitly and inherently racist, and the news organisations were rightly calling out Trump’s attempts to whitewash an openly fascist rally attended by a domestic terrorist, as well as his drawing of a false equivalence between that and people protesting against that. You’ll can do what you want I guess but I would very strongly advise against restoring an article that’s further propagating a bullshit myth designed to further rehabilitate the image of a fascist rally and a president who attempted to obfuscate its true nature. [[Special:Contributions/49.182.47.130|49.182.47.130]] ([[User talk:49.182.47.130|talk]]) 16:10, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I think 49.182 above has summarized very nicely the issues I have with the draft article, and in a broader sense, the &quot;partisan, contentious, and controversial&quot; components of this issue. —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::{{ping|Cosmikdebris}} 49.182.47.130 cannot see the deleted page since he is not a sysop, and anyway she/he did not commented about it. I ask you for a third time: Please quote which parts of the deleted page are &quot;partisan, contentious, and controversial statements&quot;[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 16:44, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::It's right there in the name. Calling it a hoax. It's not hard to insinuate the rest of the page from there. In fact, I'll point out that even in your deleted quotes, all Trump has been doing is deflecting the question, and instead just says they ''should'' be condemned and his &quot;very fine people on both sides&quot; comment is the closest he gets to actually expressing a real moral judgement he can make, which... not a good look in the ''slightest'', so it's not a hoax to claim that this is his most direct value judgement on the neonazis on UtR. Anyway, this is a blatant [[PragerU]] talking point and we can debunk this into infinity if we really wanted to, but the BoN did it better than I ever could and that's without them even having to see the page. Get a bit more creative than repeating points made by hacks like Dennis Prager. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:46, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|The Crow}} Did you actually see the deleted page?[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 17:51, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I would personally have left the page in draft space. I saw it, I don't think it would have been worth keeping. While Trump did not directly call neo-nazis fine people and claimed that not everybody at the rally was a white supremacist (a hell of a stretch, because I can't imagine a cause where I'd be willing to attend the same demonstration as neo-nazis), we don't need an entire article dedicated to semantic arguments proving it. If you want to add a clarification to the Trump article or even [[Unite the Right]], you may do so- assuming the information isn't already there.--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 17:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::The problem with the page was two-fold. 1) It is not a hoax: Trump factually said it. At best, one could argue that it was quote mining by the media. 2) The reason that it was not even quote mining is that the UTR rally was created expressly to unite a diverse group of Nazi-aligned ''Arschlöcher''. So, Trump said there were some fine people among this group. It's not even quote mining because even ''The Daily Stormer'' called the whole bunch of groups Nazis. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&diff=2226693</id> <title>RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&diff=2226693"/> <updated>2020-09-15T21:38:05Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Should we hold a full vote to confirm the ban? */ <hr /> <div>{{mod talk header}} &lt;center&gt;[[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive_List|Archives for this page]]&lt;/center&gt; {{#tag:inputbox| bgcolor=transparent type=fulltext prefix=RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation break=yes width={{{width|60}}} searchbuttonlabel={{{label|Search the archives}}} }} [[File:Moderator.jpg|thumb]] __TOC__ &lt;!-- write below this line --&gt; == Requesting input on CS interpretation == Okay, I'll just keep this short. As a part of [[RW:BLOCK]], we forbid bigoted material being posted on the wiki, which warrants a block. To this end, I've attempted earlier today to clean up three Saloon threads because two BONs inserted blockable crap as threads (a Comicsgate website and a [[Ludwig von Mises Institute]] article that goes &quot;racism doesn't exist, but hating on men does&quot;) and the third one being a Steven Crowder video on how Trump deserves a Noble Peace Prize. I'm not here to ask about that last one, given it was duplicitous anyway. Rather, Hastur appears to have restored the other two, saying &quot;if I don't like it, just ignore it&quot;. What I am in effect asking here is that in the event that we block someone for posting bigoted crap, is it okay to then also ''remove'' the bigoted crap. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 19:57, 10 September 2020 (UTC) :I would argue that this particular BoN's posts don't meet the standard of what is block/removal worthy. If we can't handle a link to the Ludwig von Mises institute, we have a problem--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 20:20, 10 September 2020 (UTC) ::Agreed. {{User:GR/sig}} 20:21, 10 September 2020 (UTC) :::I am content with just placing the troll posts in a nice &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{collapse}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; block. —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:15, 10 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I disagree with the use of the collapse template. I think its use ought to be discouraged--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:16, 10 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Yeah, there is an excessive use with the collapse template. It should be used conservatively and, instead, it's used all the time. {{User:GR/sig}} 23:28, 10 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::We shouldn't be seen as giving a platform to people who say, &quot;racism doesn't exist but hating on men does&quot;. That definitely should have been collapsed. Don't worry about using the collapse template too much. If crap needs to be collapsed, collapse it. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 00:12, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Or don't be so stubborn and just revert it. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 00:30, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::: Or literally don't revert or remove it because the talk page policy states you may only remove &quot;obviously vile trolling&quot; and &quot;spam&quot;. Brx is right. In fact, nearly everything brx has said for months is right. What the fuck. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 03:38, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Yeah fuck man, what the fuck? Brx has gone from that vile bastard who shits on your lawn during their morning jog to a valued voice. It just shows how low some people have dragged this site when Brx becomes reasonable. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 04:04, 11 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::It's not my fault your lawn is so poorly maintained it looks like a gas station toilet--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 04:11, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::My God...next thing you know Satan will sin the Nobel Peace Prize!!! [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:26, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :I protected the Saloon Bar for 9 hours. I don't mind him spamming us a few times a week but clearly this troll must have gotten a particularly mean wedgie from the boys at school today, and feels the need to compensate for his insecurities extra hard. --[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:42, 11 September 2020 (UTC) ::Oh, so that's who Hastur is. I had wondered. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 05:57, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::That's Brx alright. Funny he used to be such an annoyance but now I kinda like him. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:20, 11 September 2020 (UTC) ::::You could also just clean up the shit on the floor, instead of letting it sit there and fester. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 02:30, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Oxyaena already being hostile/aggressive after getting sysop back. Hopefully the people who voted to give her sysop back will rein her in (sarcasm: they won't and they don't care). {{User:GR/sig}} 02:57, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I don't see how that's aggressive or hostile, but okay. It's just blunt, but, anyways, as always: {{dftt}}. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 03:21, 13 September 2020 (UTC) == Editwarring on the [[Leo Gura]] page == It's happening between two sysops (Machina and HairlessCat), and it has been going on for days now. Request input by the mods. {{User:GR/sig}} 00:48, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :Agree. We've already discussed on the talk page how it needs to be edited to be less verbose and that being a justified measure for change (I said I would edit it tomorrow). Although, I suspect Machina's changes are indeed more ideological in nature and not related to the prose at all, which'd be why Machina's not waiting a tad. [[User:HairlessCat|HairlessCat]] ([[User talk:HairlessCat|talk]]) 00:59, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::OK - I have protected the page as it is now. Hash it out on the talkpage please. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 01:18, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::{{ping|Machina}} You might want to respond to this here. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 01:22, 13 September 2020 (UTC) The additions I removed were more about legitimizing woo or crank ideas, so they weren't relevant to the topic. It's not important what drugs he took or what he felt as a result, especially since the only evidence for any of his claims is personal experience from drug use. The segment on the incompleteness theorems seems like a bid to led Leo's interpretation credibility even though the article linked mentions that such an interpretation is incorrect (in that case why include it). The study linked for psychedelics increasing rebellion is not what the study says at all. If it were Deepak I would slightly understand since he is a big name who literally influences far more than Leo. But that page rightly calls him out for what he is. The edits on the Leo page seem like they were either written by Leo or some apologist to give him some credibility when all he has is personal experience for his woo. The edits I took out were irrelevant to the whole topic, if others BESIDES Hairless feel that this is in error I will side with that judgment, especially if it's the mods. Otherwise I see no reason to admit I was wrong. I mean even the callout on the talk page shows Hairless is too close to the subject matter to give a clear view of it.[[User:Machina|Machina]] ([[User talk:Machina|talk]]) 02:26, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :A person having a mental breakdown that stops them from believing in woo is pretty important, and the Godel quote is actually meant to show where he is mistaken on that matter. This isn't a conspiracy to whitewash the page. I'll fix the prose evening ETC. On the sixteenth of September once things cool down. [[User:HairlessCat|HairlessCat]] ([[User talk:HairlessCat|talk]]) 14:42, 13 September 2020 (UTC) == Request for IP suppression in Edits == I mistakenly edited a page without logging in properly and left my IP on a page. Is it possible to delete it?--[[User:Nessundorma|Nessundorma]] ([[User talk:Nessundorma|talk]]) 03:07, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :Yes, but I think you are making it worse by notifying us. Otherwise it would just be a random IP editing a certain page and that be it. Unless there is a significant privacy risk, I don't think the mods or techs will heed your request, though. {{User:GR/sig}} 03:10, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::Easy fix. Just post the edit and we can make it like it never existed. Or email it if you want to take an extra measure of privacy--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 03:17, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Yeah, if you really want it removed, it's best to email the IP address to a moderator to make it less obvious, but if for some reason someone is watching recent edits, they might be able to figure it out anyway. Don't forget the [[Streisand effect]]. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 03:35, 13 September 2020 (UTC) == Raven == I request an interaction ban, he's going out of his way to troll me and, as per the terms of my probation, am requesting moderator assistance because I feel I can't handle this in a civil manner. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:13, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Saloon_bar&amp;curid=77683&amp;diff=2225557&amp;oldid=2225555 It would help if you didn't try to troll him]--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:15, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::{{dftt}} &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:18, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Not a mod, but Hastur, that doesn't really constitute &quot;trolling.&quot; Oxy is trying to abide by the terms of her probation. Grow up, please. [[User:RoninMacbeth|RoninMacbeth]] ([[User talk:RoninMacbeth|talk]]) 05:21, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::{{ec}}[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:Oxyaena&amp;curid=201740&amp;diff=2225636&amp;oldid=2224122 Why did you remove this?.] Anyways, de-escalation is one thing, but it's really the least we can ask of you to not try and needle Raven and then get offended when he responds in kind--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:22, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I asked why you egg Raven on, you said &quot;because it amuses me.&quot; You're no better than him. Get off your high horse please. You're actively hindering efforts to deescalate things. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:23, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I offer my observations. I derive amusement from all sorts of discourse. Adding commentary to your interactions with Godless Raven is much like adding commentary to WIGO:CP--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:28, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Grow up. Your &quot;observations&quot; only serve to inflame tensions even further. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:30, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Oxy, please try to just ignore Raven. I know your terms of probation are to inform mods instead of taking action yourself but please try to ignore Raven. Do not engage with him. That should be your first action to take rather than running straight to a mod. As a mod, and I don’t think I’ll be alone in this, I’d rather watch you be the bigger woman and walk away. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:49, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::To be clear, {{ping|Ace McWicked}}, Oxy attacked me first. Check Hastur's link. {{User:GR/sig}} 07:54, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::I don’t give a fucking shit who fucking attacked who. Raven, just fucking ignore and refuse to engage Oxy. Oxy, stay the fuck away from Raven. Jesus fucking Christ - this is like moderating my 6 year old daughter. At least she understands enough to stay away from the kids that are mean to her. What’s your fucking excuse? [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:14, 13 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} Yeah, bothsiding this won't help. Treating the reactor the same way you treat the instigator is a bit smoothbrained. but eh, sure, I'll stay &quot;away&quot; from Oxy. Don't forget that she is on probation, not me. {{User:GR/sig}} 09:09, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :Raven, for awhile there I was totally on your side. But no longer. Stop. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 09:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::I would like to see a solution that ends this endless fighting/cooping/pleading-for-rights-restoration. I don't think I'm the only one who's quite tired of it. If the solution is a stay-away agreement that both parties agree to, that's great. Otherwise, I would support whatever it takes: permanent sysoprevoke for one or both parties, or permaban. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 16:19, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::I don't think that's necessary, the whole reason I came here was because of me abiding by the terms of my probation. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:24, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Then why did you remove it, {{ping|Oxyaena}}? [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:Oxyaena&amp;diff=2225636&amp;oldid=2224122] This was part of the probation that you were supposed to undergo. {{ping|Bongolian}} The permaban was rejected by the mob in the last coop. If you want, you can start a coop to sysoprevoke me, but that would be quite funny because I didn't abuse my sysop tools to sysoprevoke me in the first place (unlike Oxy, who, according to Nutty's stats, has systemically abused it). {{User:GR/sig}} 17:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::{{ping|Ace McWicked}} &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 17:37, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I just want to point out that my recommendation of adding it to her profile page was just that, a recommendation so both she and the mods wouldn't forget. It wasn't ever added to the sanctions, so she's technically not required to do it since it's not a part of her sanctions (can't say why she'd remove it tho...). Anyway, GR, please stop stirring shit just because you don't like Oxy, or else you could be looking at an interaction ban, because you're just stirring shit up to get her angry. Hell, even ''Ace'' told you to stop doing this on your talkpage and here we are ''again'' on what I'm pretty sure is just the same subject. Cut it out. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:46, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Crow, nobody asked you. Shut up. {{User:GR/sig}} 18:12, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Crow is right. Just because nobody asked doesn’t mean crow can’t have an opinion. Raven, you’re burning any good will you had. Move on, fucking end it. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 18:15, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Raven. Stop. Leave Oxy alone. Do something else. Jerk smack, go for a walk, whatever else you want to do - you’re not making friends here. Just stay the fuck away from Oxy. Oxy, please do the same. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 17:55, 13 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}Yes, the permaban was rejected before, but given the frequent history of you two appearing in the coop, there's a reasonable likelihood that you're both going to burn all the good will you had to reinstate you. I'm not planning to coop either of you. I'm just saying that you two should stop causing shit shows for your own good. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:55, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :I`m merely abiding by my probation terms. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 18:59, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::Oh I really like that term &quot;jerk smack&quot;. Urban dictionary has an extremely descriptive definition of the term. It's quiet evocative and I dare say even poetic. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:09, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Urban dictionary is wrong. To jerk smack means to shoot up heroin. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 19:49, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Interaction ban that goes both ways would be acceptable to me. It'd be better if GR and Oxy would do it voluntarily without involving the mob. My respect for the first of the two to stop responding to the other ones provocations will increase exponentially. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 19:16, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I do think that you could've handled this better Ace. Perhaps a polite request to GR to stay away from Oxy, followed by a request that Oxy also do the same with GR would've gone down better? I can see Oxy's point, and I fail to see why she needs to stay the fuck away from GR. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:57, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Ace doesn't do politeness really well. But other than that [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:GR&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2225701| he did exactly] [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Oxyaena&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2225704| what you asked there.] {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 21:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::{{ping|Kiko4564}} If I was impolite it is only because this has been going on for ages. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 00:14, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Yeah fuck this burning trashfire. lol {{User:GR/sig}} 02:05, 14 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}Another day, another 'retirement'. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 02:20, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :We should start up a scoreboard for the most fake retirements. Maybe we can even offer a free t-shirt for whoever has the record by 2025![[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:44, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::I’m proud to say in my 12 years at RW I’ve never pulled a LANCB. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 05:38, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::Well if you're interested in experimenting a few of us could harass the shit out of you until you LANCB! Limited time offer. Just say the word :) [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:10, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::That wouldn’t work on me - I can give it back twice as hard and secondly I’m adept at ignoring it. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:26, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Really? Even if I call you a big stinky doe-head? [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:03, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Suggested prizes for most number of LANCBs ::::*First Prize: permaban (wish granted) ::::*Second Prize: sysoprevoke for life (next best thing) ::::*Third Prize: 1 week block (longer than you have probably ever LANCBed) ::::*Participation Prize: free joke block, chosen by a committee of never-LANCBers ::::[[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:19, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I'd say those prizes are generous. Are you personally funding them out of your own wallet Bongolian? [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:03, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Agreed, LANCB is now a cliche in my opinion. It should be LAMCB (Leave And Maybe Come Back), as that would actually mean something. Thanks for your politeness, and civility when dealing with Oxy, Ace. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 10:40, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::SABWBBTW is maybe more accurate (Storming Away But Will Be Back This Week) [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:41, 14 September 2020 (UTC) == Request to inconvenience an ip range == Particularly there's a persistent ip address in Saloon Bar with string 2001:8003:59DB:4100 that's spamming right wing links. Can we get a 1-week range block to inconvenience it? I prefer this over a page protection. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 07:21, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't have an objection per se, but it would simpler to put a 1-week protection on the Saloon since that would not require a vote. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:30, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :: I've seen an ip and a relative new user use that page, so I'm a bit hesitant barring them. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 07:40, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::A vote is required? That seems absurd to me. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 10:38, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I would vote in favor of a short range-block, if I can be assured a range block won't blot out a whole city or something--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 10:39, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I would vote Aye too, but I'm not an eligible voter. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 10:49, 14 September 2020 (UTC) 2001:8003::/32 seems to be the range. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Block/2001:8003:0:0:0:0:0:0/32 I note it has been blocked before.] {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 21:11, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :If a range block is unacceptable, what about using the edit filter to limiting this range's edits to once a day?--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:25, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::This works too; just do anything that can limit the ease of sharing links. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 01:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::How about the vandal bin for this IP range? That way it will be limited to editing once every so often. I know this isn't normal, but this is an IP range, not just a single BoN. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:38, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::We never vandal bin IPs. People in the bin stay there indefinitely until someone cares to remove them. Too easy to accidentally leave IPs in there forever, which can impact innocent people. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) == Was I ever banned from this wiki? == See the discussion [[User_talk:DuceMoosolini#Smith|here]]. To make a long story short: one admin &quot;D&quot; started blocking my accounts as well as blocking many accounts I ''don't'' own (incorrectly tagging them under my name) after I confronted them about their behaviour and harassment a year back. As far as I'm aware there was no consensus to actually ban me from RationalWiki (or if there was it was manipulated by &quot;D&quot;), secondly, the ban doesn't work because I add valuable content on new accounts (I've been editing on Flight for 10 days and have already [[Patriotic Alternative|made]] [[Laura Towler|three]] [[Spiteful mutant hypothesis|articles]]) and come back and do the same thing on a new account — when I feel there is an important page that needs to be added to this wiki — like the [[Spiteful mutant hypothesis]]. If someone wants to take a look at what the harassment I confronted &quot;D&quot; about looks like (that has been going on now for ''over a year'') they can see [https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiInAction/comments/ggmjv5/banned_wikipedia_troll_captain_occam_real_name/fqr3bjk/?context=3 here] (&quot;D&quot;s Reddit account is virtually dedicated to libel): {{quotebox|Furthermore, the claim that Smith is mostly retired is contradicted by the many hundreds of accounts he's created on RationalWiki. Around 80 accounts a year since 2013. I don't necessarily have a feud with Oliver Smith beyond the fact he's a '''nationalist, anti-natalist, XXXXXXXXX, serial doxxer, cyber-harrasser, XXXXXXXXX etc'''. It would be truly difficult to imagine how I would even start character assassinating such an obnoxious person, he does it himself by simply existing.}} Needless to say none of these defamatory claims are true but I've had to deal with this crazy person run across the internet for the past year calling me everything from a paedophile, child abuser, child rapist, transphobe, psychopath, fascist, nationalist or far-right extremist on not only Reddit, but Discord, wiki-related forums and allegedly in emails where they are libelling me to others. Note &quot;D&quot; is not even consistent with the lies they post about me, for example they claimed on Reddit I created 80 accounts a year since 2013 (560 accounts) yet contradict themselves on a recent [[User_talk:DuceMoosolini#Smith|talk page]] claiming I own approximately 150. What happened to the other 400 accounts? [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:01, 14 September 2020 (UTC) : For clarification I've owned around three dozen accounts since 2012. Claims of hundreds of accounts, 150 or 560 are a wild exaggeration.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:48, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::Contrary to the quick closure done by {{ping|D}}, I want to point out that there has been no due process for Smith. Rather, Smith appears to have been speedily banned after he [[RationalWiki:Articles_for_deletion/Emil_Kirkegaard|filed AfDs for pages he created]], after admitting he'd gotten into legal trouble with some idiots and he didn't want RW to get into trouble. Dysk seems to then have gone and banned him outside of the mob, which in accordance with basic CS rules meant it had to be raised and '''voted on by the mob''' to get Smith permanently banned. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus While it was raised in ATIM], there was never any consensus reached on getting Smith banned. As a result, I feel that Smith does not currently preside under the rules that would constitute a permanent block, and it would be desirable for the mob to consider doing that vote now, because as is, there is no grounds to block Smith or any of his alts. Furthermore, I also call into question the competence of {{ping|D}}, who in this link appears to have admitted to using the Edit Filter as an outright alternative to CheckUser (tech rights technically allow for this, yes I need to bother David over this and yes I've been lazy in doing that), which is a fairly blatant abuse of rights given our rules surrounding the fact that we don't use CU and using AbuseFilter as a way around this is scummy as fuck. ::Finally, {{ping|Bongolian}} there is no need to block out &quot;XXXXXXXXX&quot; and &quot;XXXXXXXXX&quot; here. These are words Dysk said on that subreddit. I've undone the suppression of those edits. ::Because I was not specifically involved in whatever incident originally led to Smith getting his ass kicked (from what I know, not many a tear was shed over his departure), I will personally refrain from voting for this, but we have to respect basic procedure here. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:45, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::''who in this link appears to have admitted to using the Edit Filter as an outright alternative to CheckUser'' I've long thought this was the case. In which case - anyone using the edit filter to check IP's should have tech rights removed immediately. I suspect Oxy used this feature too. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 20:35, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::I do not like Smith, and will openly state that I would vote to ban him if it came to that. However, it is better to go through the proper procedures, lest a mistake allow him and his drama to remain. {{User:GrammarCommie/sig}} 18:00, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::{{Modhat}} The citation that was given by does not contain that text. It is indeed potentially libelous, as we don't know with absolute — just reasonable — certainty that this is the same Smith person. Reinstating the text is inadvisable, to say the least, because I hid the edits that showed it. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:39, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::It does contain that text. In fact, it's a literal cite (the only change is the removal of a newline, which might just have been the result from copy and pasting) from /u/Dysklyver (which is rather obviously Dysks' reddit handle). I would argue that we can say with enough absolute certainity that this is the same Smith, given that this user is arguing that he shouldn't be blocked, and his arguments are based on the assumption that he is Smith (which combined with his spiel on Duce's talkpage would indicate that he is Smith), which would be really weird if he wasn't actually Smith. Anyway, to prevent wheel warring, I won't bother to undo these suppressions. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 19:03, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::From what I have seen Dysklyver was originally on friendly terms with Smith. Dysklyver then became a close friend of [[Abd Lomax]] (who is banned here) and Lomax turned Dysklyver against Smith. On Reddit there has been a Dysklyver/Abd war against Smith and vise versa going on for over a year. They create countless petty threads against each other with accusations of sock-puppetry. Dysklyver has tech rights and he can see the IP address/s of created accounts on here. D has got a list of IP addresses from RationalWiki accounts which he claims match to Smith's geographical location (he's admitted this in a Reddit post) so he can apparently identify Smith by private IP data. Abd has repeatedly published private IP data on his website accusing Smith of owning hundreds of sock-puppets on this website. This is obviously a privacy violation. Mikemikev also has a history of impersonating Smith and he is also somehow involved in this drama. :::::: Abd is a prolific sock-puppeteer himself, and globally banned from Wikipedia for doxing users. I don't trust any of his data. Dysklyver/Smith are both good editors. The real issue here is Abd Lomax, he appears to have a heavy influence over Dysklyver and responsible for the Dysklyver/Smith drama. BTW I am somehow loosely connected to this 'drama' by Lomax who still accuses me of being Smith and posts about 1 million essays on his website about my account, however unlike other users he has accused of being Smith I have never engaged any of his nonsense off this website. I don't care what people write, but private IP data thing is out of order. Abd is untrustworthy and should not be given private IP data or logs from this website. The man is a menace. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 21:44, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ===Should we hold a full vote to confirm the ban?=== {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 18:35, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :No. Oliver Smith was permabanned. If Smith wants to appeal that ban, that was entirely the wrong way to go about it. If he thinks he was unjustly banned, he should: :#Take any off-wiki disputes with D or anyone else elsewhere, and not bring them up here. :#Confess to all of his puppet accounts and list them out: they were all ban evasions. :#Give a full explanation of why he thinks he was unjustly banned, including thorough citations. :[[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 19:16, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::Oliver Smith was not permabanned in accordance with our CS. He was blocked outside of our regular procedures by Dysk and aftewards there was no vote on him getting blocked, just some amount of yes-nodding and the closest to a consensus was a private agreement between Oxy and RWRW. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 19:20, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::The community standards weren't as rigorously enforced back then, RW was a different place. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 19:32, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::For anyone wondering, this 'agreement' between myself and Oxy is referenced to [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus here]. It was something like 18 months ago so I can't remember the conversation, but I don't deny that it probably happened. I don't think there was ever a formal vote to ban Smith so in a sense Crow is right about that, in a sense he's just been considered 'de-facto' banned. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 19:35, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::What was the first Smith account that was banned? I thought it was much older than 18 months ago. David Gerard banned an account years ago for impersonating Smith (it was Mikemikev according to him). [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 19:40, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Earliest Smith account that I've found was User:Krom, which was abandoned in 2015. I can't find any Smith account that was permabanned before February 2019 by Dysk (though I could be mistaken, he's had so many different accounts that it isn't easy to keep on top). {{Ping|D}} might know if there was any more. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 20:13, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::: D can see IP addresses on here for accounts so I am not sure how that works in regard to privacy, it can't really &quot;work&quot; because it is a violation of privacy. Can he check old edits and logs and get IP data from accounts created years ago? On most wikis CU data goes to about 6 months at the most, but I am guessing this is different. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 22:11, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Techs can only see IPs of users who proc the filter, which from what I know doesn't have expiring logs. (And yes this needs to be fixed.) I can't say for certain right now, in part because I obviously can't publicly spell out our anti spam tools (would be circumventable), whether or not any Techs have made lasting filters that would log every edit/account creation. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 22:36, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::: I believe it has been misused and there is a privacy violation. Dysk has admitted to collecting private IP data on Smith's RationalWiki accounts. Various private data and logs were sent to Abd Lomax (Lomax is a mod on Dysk/EK's discord). How do we know other private data is not being leaked off this website? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 22:45, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::We need to hide IP's even from techs. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 23:13, 14 September 2020 (UTC) : There are untrue claims by Dysk I use VPNs or TOR. I've never used one or tried to conceal my home IP-address here or anywhere else and anyone who can check IPs will see I'm not using a VPN now. Also note if you go back years I used to edit here publicly on my home-IP. That wouldn't make any sense if I was a VPN/TOR user trying to hide it. As for listing incorrect reasons for why I was banned - I did that on another page and this has been mentioned above by The Crow - the block was outside of regular procedures by Dysk/EK/Ox on Discord. The account they banned was [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Tobias Tobias] in May 2019 based on false allegations I doxed EK who Dysk has claimed is their sister. I never did dox, but linked to EK's public Wikipedia blocked account. According though to EK/Dysk the fact I posted a Wikipedia url is &quot;malicious doxxing&quot;. I suggest mods who can look through striked (deleted) content see [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Tobias my edits]. To summarise I was banned for no valid reason whatsoever. All the other accounts of mine Dysk has blocked such as Krom came after Tobias.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:17, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::Are we burying the lede here? People have been using edit filter to gain IP Address information? This is about as anti-RW as it gets and you lot are just going to gloss over that? [[Special:Contributions/203.54.149.190|203.54.149.190]] ([[User talk:203.54.149.190|talk]]) 00:45, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I am with the BoN here. RW has been '''strictly and stridently''' opposed to IP checking since it's inception. Anyone doing so should be kick-banned immediately with prejudice. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 00:48, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Well it is too late now, it's been going on for about six months or so, maybe longer. I know this issue has been raised several times before on here but no action was taken. I have only just realized how bad this is. The geezers who run this website need to be informed. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 01:11, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I believe that we went over this issue before, separately with both D and Oxy, who both denied that it took place. If anyone has any evidence to the contrary, let's have it. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 01:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I looked through the edit filters. I don’t see anything that looks like a pseudo-checkuser. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 01:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::OK - cool. I'll take your word for it. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 02:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::D has admitted to using filter IP data to ban a number of alleged Smith accounts. I've seen the filters, and though I haven't gone through the log data to confirm any blocked IP addresses appear there, I'm not sure why I'd doubt his claim. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 02:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) Mhm let's see; :- I blocked a lot of accounts and IP addresses as sockpuppets of Smith over a year or so following the doxing incidents. The vast majority of these were admitted accounts, with a few blocks based on obvious behavioural similarities. :- While at the time of blocking the relevant accounts I was unaware of the fact IP addresses were visible I later discovered this by accident, and mostly out of curiosity, used this feature to check the IP-Data on several accounts I'd blocked in the past. :- The IP-Data appears to remain recorded forever, I looked at some random edit filter events from the distant past and the IP-Data is still there. :- I considered this for a while to be a potentially useful stand-in for checkuser, although I never used it at such as it was unnecessary to do so, somewhat difficult to use, plus I felt that was likely to be not appreciated by others (despite not being technically against the rules). :- I later used the fact I'd seen several items of IP-Data, to tell Smith to fuck off and stop lying on Reddit during an argument. Smith's reaction was as if I had access to a Checkuser equivalent tool, and in the absence of any documentation explaining how limited this feature is, I encouraged that thought to wind him up. :- Despite John's claims, Abd has never seen any IP-Data, isn't a mod on any relevant Discord, and no IP-Data from this site has ever been externally recorded. Indeed except on a few occasions nobody has bothered to even look at it. :- While Oxyaena was a Tech here she became aware of the method to access IP-Data, and used it to check the IPs of Morris accounts to an unknown extent, I never asked for details on this. :- In some attempt to fix this edit filter loophole, I posted on David's talk page nearly four months on 18th June asking for this to be fixed, it has not been fixed at time of writing, IP-Data is visible to any Tech that wants to see it, although I haven't personally bothered for many months. :- Some months ago, when I'm not sure exactly, I discussed this on Discord and it was agreed to be a major site security flaw. Although only those with shell access can fix it, me and Ze later closed many edit filters to the bare minimum to avoid users tripping them unnecessarily. For example no Autoconfirmed, Autopatrolled, or Sysop flagged user will trip a filter. :- I have discussed the IP-Data concerns on Discord with numerous users, including The Crow, Nutty, Oxyaena, in addition to informing David who replied to my comment about it 4 months ago and is aware of the issue. I believe this covers the main points of discussion, if I missed anything let me know, I'll reply when I get back here at a later date. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 06:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I fucking knew Oxy was IP checking. I knew she was lying. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 06:53, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :{{ec}}I see that you raised [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:David_Gerard&amp;diff=2194294&amp;oldid=2154282 such concerns] around the same time that you [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:David_Gerard&amp;diff=2194294&amp;oldid=2154282 admitted to checking IPs.] I'll admit, I'm conflicted about all of this. On the one hand you're competent as a tech and seem to have a genuine interest in improving the site. However, abusing the trust of the community to see other users' IP addresses is a serious issue. I shall await to hear further arguments before throwing in any sort of judgement. It would help if you could 1. explain your relation to Abd and 2. explain why you've been banned by Wikipedia et al. Some may see this as irrelevant offsite drama but personally I feel that the more knowledge we have the better we'll be able to make decisions.--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 06:56, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::It would be useful for {{ping|David Gerard}} confirm this information to the extant that he can, and to hear his opinion if he cares to give it. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I have no idea about any of this and haven't even verified that the edit filter method of IP checking works - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 16:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I never checked shit, you're all basing this off hearsay by Dysk. I never checked IPs, I don't even know how to for Christ's sake. Fuck you, {{ping|Ace McWicked}}. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 07:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Why are you angry at me? I'm going by Dysk. Be mad at him. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Okay so since I spend some amount of time yesterday looking at filters to see if there are any &quot;strange&quot; ones that might have the goal of blocking users randomly, I feel like I can step in here to point out a few things. :::::* Oxy became aware of this while being a tech, by learning about it from Ze, who apparently learned it from you, who claimed at the time that you &quot;showed me but its not that easy to use&quot;, although I cannot verify whether she figured it specifically how to do it. Unfortunately, whether or not she used it to check Morris' IP addresses, I am not sure (I will add that she vehemently rejects doing it, but also see my last bullet). The unfortunate part is that if you have access to the Filter, you have access to the IPs (again can and should be blocked). There is no rights elevation or anything needed to see this at the moment. I can at least ensure the following things: :::::* There have not been any blanket filters designed to catch literally everyone, no matter what for more than 60 minutes. Some have existed, but looking at history and how they ended up, these appear more of a case of hitting submit too soon rather than deliberate right abuses. Basically, [[Hanlon's razor|don't assume malice to that which can be adequately explained by stupidity]]. :::::* There are no logs for looking at filter logs themselves, which I suppose makes sense, but it means we cannot audit if someone looked at IPs by looking at the filter log. :::::* There ''are'' a few strange filters, one of which appears to still be active today, which simply tag users with a specific tag, but don't do much else, which appears weird at first but on second thought appears to be based around the obsessions of certain users. To be clear, most of that filter appears to be fairly generic &quot;this is likely vandalism&quot; stuff, it's just that there are a couple of words which appear to be designed to catch certain types of blocked users, some of whom are related to the case at hand. :::::* Did Dysk conclusively access user IPs? Well, I'll leave that up to the rest of the mob to decide. The filters history is mostly circumstantial evidence, I'll freely admit. On Reddit, he claimed that he did. Here, he claims that he didn't. I can't find any conclusive logs that he did. That said, being in a position where you ''can'' access this stuff, it usually is a bad idea to claim you did, so it's best to not go around parading that you accessed any users' IP, which arguably Dysk violated. YMMV. :::::Hope this answers some of the questions that a lot of people appear to be having. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 07:39, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::: {{ping|D}} the discord I am talking about is called &quot;The Treehouse&quot; (also known as the Wikipediocracy discord) which you and ZE invited Abd to and made him a mod on. The original discord was made for banned Wikipedia editors or critics of that said website but it has since branched out for general discussions. Abd wrote in regard to yourself and this discord &quot;''I was '''invited''' to join the Wikipediocracy Discord, and that is where I was given mod status. Nice people!''&quot; (you can Google search this quote from Abd to find it as I don't wanna link to his hack website). In this discord server there a place called &quot;The Smithery&quot; you created, where ZE, yourself and your friend Abd do &quot;researches&quot; into Smith and his alleged RationalWiki accounts. I don't think we should deny these facts. Anyone can log in there and verify these things. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 18:17, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::{{ping|Johns}} I'd like to see evidence of what you wrote about this &quot;Treehouse&quot; if you don't mind, I don't recollect it, could be the LSD... {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:38, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :No I don't think we should hold a full vote. I wouldn't support a ban if I could vote, I can't as I'm new here, but I don't think we need a coop either. This isn't a case of HCM, this is a case of someone allegedly called Smith (a banned user) allegedly returning under a new identity to allegedly evade his ban, and avoid scrutiny. We just need a summary investigation of this allegation, and appropriate action taken. If this guy is Smith, he is a banned user, and he is returning to evade his ban, then we just need appropriate action taken. Otherwise no further action is necessary. As Bongolian claims to be sure that this guy is Smith, I would say that he can go ahead and take action himself, providing that he is sure i.e. satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that this guy is Smith, and that he is evading a ban. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:46, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::That guy claimed he was Smith. I have no other evidence. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Checkuser/IP checking=== Dysk has said he used it and Oxy used it. Oxy denied it however we [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive16#Checkuser have this exchange] where Oxy was very vague about it. Plus Oxy's frequent blocks of Morris as ban evasion which she did on ''multiple'' occasions. It doesn't look good. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:44, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't see what's &quot;vague&quot; about it, I was grasping at straws there. I never used checkuser. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 08:06, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I’m not talking about checkuser - I’m asking about using the edit filters to match IP’s which a) can be done b) you alluded to during an exchange and c) Dysk claims you have used it. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I never used it. I lied about using it. LGM saw that clearly. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 08:17, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::So it’s possible, you knew it was possible, said you had used then said you lied about it, now Dysk says you have used. A lot of conflicting claims and circumstances...this filter needs to be closed at once and I don’t think Oxy, Dysk or EK should be techs again. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:22, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::{{ping|Spud}}, {{ping|RWRW}}, {{ping|Bongolian}} - some more mod input would be good here. I think we need these edit filters closed and new techs appointed. It just ain’t good enough as it stands. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:44, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Yes, it looks almost certain that Dysk and Ze know how to use the edit filter to view IPs. I'll say that Oxy's version is difficult to believe given that Dysk claims she knew how to do it and she herself once said she knew how to do it. To his credit Dysk did inform David, but this is many months after these IP checking accusations started floating around. :::::::Crow's post above mentions that a suspicious edit filter is still active, it seems to have no useful purpose and should be closed right away. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 10:22, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Man, I’ve been poking around this issue for a whole fucking year. It’s the whole reason I came back because something didn’t seem right. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} It's not possible to access the edit filter details page without seeing the IP it's on the same page and you need to check the details page to check for false positives. The problem isn't that techs see the IP address as every tech who worked on the edit filter will have done that, the problem is whether that information was used to identify who owned various vandal accounts, or whether that's a conspiracy theory started by Dysk and Oxy playing troll games with Smith and Morris. Also new techs won't change anything because the information is still there and peeps will still see it. As for closing the edit filters, I can if you want but you will have to deal with the 15k spam bots posting ads everywhere. {{User:Ze/?}} 09:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :So when Oxy (Or any other tech) says they don’t know how to view IPs that is incorrect and they see them as a matter of course? It’s what you do with the info - I.e IP matching - that is the issue? And what do you mean about a conspiracy re: troll games? I’m just trying to understand how this works. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 09:34, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::The only way to not see the IP address is to not visit the details page, which would imply not bothering to check if the filter is working or not. A tech could avoid seeing the IP address if they weren't doing anything new with the edit filter tho because then they don't have to check. ::What I mean by troll games is that Dysk has always said his reddit posts are just to annoy people so aren't necessarily accurate imo, meanwhile oxy openly admitted above to lying in her comments about the edit filter and morris so that's probably not accurate either ::the vast majority of the time troll accounts don't trip the filter so imho it's not actually possible to use it as a checkuser type tool anyway and anyone claiming they have is vastly exaggerating what they can do with it. I've used checkuser on other wikis and it gives a lot more information including browser and device and cross referencing with other accounts by IP and metadata and without that you cant do anything useful. An IP address on its own is basically useless, so unless someone collected a lot of them, which would need a broad filter we dont have, there is no checkuser like capability. ::the IP addresses shouldn't be visible tho this needs to be fixed asap and the fact it's been brought up several times before and nothing happened is cringe. {{User:Ze/?}} 10:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Right - what I’m trying to establish is in what way tech rights can be abused given we have techs guilty of rights abuse in the past (Oxy is one of these - she has been put in sysoprevoke for such issues). Yes - this IP issue needs cleaning up immediately and I think Oxy and Dysk should never hold those positions again. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::My point is that nobody has abused the tech rights in relation to this. One of the root users at some point granted techs the ability to see private IP data, but no techs have collected or published it so the point is moot. If the point is that seeing the IP data is abuse then the blame lies with the root user who enabled it (probably trent) not with the techs doing their appointed task subsequently. {{User:Ze/?}} 10:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::OK, well I’ll be careful around accusations of abuse - I just wanted to know if it could be abused. And it has annoyed me that subsequent techs (in particular Oxy) have been very... murky and vague, when asked direct questions. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:39, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::I think there is the potential for the tech access to IP addresses to be abused and at various points Dysk and Oxy did intend to use it as a checkuser but this didn't happen mostly because it doesn't give enough information to be useful. The lack of information on the filter is mostly because nobody talks about it openly as people would read it and circumvent it if they knew exactly how it worked. {{User:Ze/?}} 10:49, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Well, if Dysk and Oxy discussed using it in this manner then they would have been actively tried to subvert one of RW strongest codes of ethics. If true - it’s no fucking joke... [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:52, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Is there any evidence you can provide that Dysk and Oxy discussed using an edit filter or something similar to create a checkuser type of ability? [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} Yes I can prove it, Dysk posted it on this page even: ::''I considered this for a while to be a potentially useful stand-in for checkuser, although I never used it at such as it was unnecessary to do so, somewhat difficult to use, plus I felt that was likely to be not appreciated by others (despite not being technically against the rules).'' In [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2226423&amp;oldid=2226377 this] post. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:10, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::And Oxy? You said at various points - you mean away from the community eye I take it and without the communities knowledge? I’m finally putting some pieces of a puzzle together that I started putting together a year ago - this is why I am interested. I may be brusque, drunk, swear all the time but I have RWs rich history and traditions at heart - and IP matching/checkuser/anonymity is a huge deal. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I have uploaded [[:File:FilterDetailView.png]] and [[:File:FilterLogView.png]] for clarity. I recognize that this is a conversation that a lot of non-techs will be looking into, and as a result they might not be aware on how the interface looks (for reference, clicking details in the LogView image sends you to the DetailView image in the actual interface, and examine lets you run other filters against certain edits for testing). I've censored as much identifying information as possible to prevent this from getting tied back to any user in particular (the only visible thing is the specific filter they triggered, which uh... this is one of our public filters although it got disabled earlier today). One thing not really visible here is that you can filter the Log view specific to the user on whom an action was taken, on what page they attempted something and what filter might have been triggered. I hope this helps clarify a thing or two for any non-techs poking in. I've marked relevant information to this situation with a red background. Before anyone jumps my gun, I used a BON edit for this example, so y'all don't have to be scared I'm looking at your IPs or whatever. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 11:22, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::OK - as it stand I think {{ping|Oxyaena}} and {{ping|D}} have to answer some questions here. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::There are Discord channels with combined nearly 3 million posts dedicated to this site that you never really got involved in. All the existing mods and techs hang out on Discord and routinely talk about the site, even new techs like Crow are heavy discord users. So if you define the community as just the wiki then yes 90% or more of the decisions and talk are happening elsewhere. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::I joined Discord a few months back because I heard rumours about what was being said behind closed doors. This has always happened in one form or another of course but it seems Discord had a shadow “steering committee”. So I joined. Note for the community - I have talked about this issue, the techs and IP matching in Discord, and have strenuously advised that all discussion about this be made on wiki for the sake of transparency. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:45, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::You joined the support chat and maybe the old main chat(?) there are multiple channels that you aren't on where as much or more disscussion happens. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:55, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Well, shit man. I can’t be every where at once. Either way - my position is the same - all RW business should be discussed here. You wanna bitch about a user on Discord? Go for it. But policy reminds on RW always. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:57, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::Anyway - midnight here and I have work tomorrow. I’m sure there’ll be plenty for me to read tomorrow. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:59, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::I was interested in it and thought it may be worthwhile, I wasn't aware such a thing was that big of a deal. I never actually went through with it however. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 13:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::::So what I've said is still true. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 13:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::::Oxy, you're full of shit - I don't think you should ever hold tech again and this will be the reason. Can someone, anyone, actually address getting the edit filter fixed? {{ping|Ze}}, {{ping|David Gerard}}, {{ping|Spud}}. Fucking anyone? [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 21:05, 15 September 2020 (UTC) == The page I created was deleted == {{ping|Jeh2ow}} deleted the page I created: ([https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Log/delete Deletion log]) 11:25, 15 September 2020 Jeh2ow (talk | contribs) deleted page Draft:Very fine people Hoax (Hopelessly off-mission: Extremely false) It doesn't seem to me that the [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Deleting rules about deletion] were followed, and anyway I dispute the deletion. I have a partial backup of the page, missing the last section. Also, I cannot write in the Saloon Bar anymore, I don't know if it is related to this matter.[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 12:17, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|Pam}} Even if Trump never said that Nazis were fine people (which he did, mind you), this still is a hopelessly off-mission topic and isn't really helpful to RationalWiki. I just had to deal with a regressive leftist who compared [[Stephen Fry]] to [[Osama bin Laden]], and I need a break to focus on my classwork. Don't even think about restoring this page.&lt;span&gt;— [[User:Jeh2ow|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;'''Jeh2ow'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk: Jeh2ow|&lt;font color=&quot;Blue&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Damn son!&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 13:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::{{ping|Pam}} Saloon Bar was protected by LGM yesterday due to excessive spamming. Only Autoconfirmed users can edit for the next few days. Apologies for the inconvenience. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 13:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::User doesn't have sysop or any other rights, so they can't recreate the page. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 13:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|Jeh2ow}} Trump did not say that Nazis were fine people. The page you deleted had a detailed analysis proving so, by showing the video and transcript of the conference. But of course it is impossible to have a discussion about that if you literally delete the arguments of one interlocutor. What you had to deal with Stephen Fry and your classwork is unrelated and you should not bring it to this thread. :Anyway, there are rules about pages deletion and I think there have not been respected. Also, I should be allowed to dispute a deletion by showing to other users and moderators the actual content of the page, while now I cannot. [[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 14:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :The article makes a fair point about something the media has gotten wrong for obvious reasons, and frankly I think it's at least as tangentially missional as stuff people have gotten in big fights over here, but it will likely stay deleted for reasons. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 14:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::The material in the deleted draft warrants no more than a brief mention in [[Donald Trump]] or [[Rhetoric of Donald Trump]], and certainly not a standalone article. As written, the draft made partisan, contentious and controversial statements. —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:11, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::{{ping|Nutty Roux}}{{ping|Cosmikdebris}} How can you see the deleted page? Is there some backup on RW? I ask because I cannot see how any discussion about the deletion of the page can be done if people cannot see the page that was deleted. :::{{ping|Nutty Roux}} What reasons? :::{{ping|Cosmikdebris}} What &quot;partisan, contentious and controversial statements&quot; did I make? Quote some of them.[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 15:34, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::{{ping|Pam}} Sysops can check &quot;deleted user contributions&quot;. Even suppressed contributions can be seen by mods or techs. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 15:50, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Pam, everyone but you can see the page because they're sysops. Cosmikdebris' assertion is it contained partisan, contentious, and controversial statements. No point in arguing with facts or asking him to demonstrate his claims because you're a new user and he's not. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 15:54, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :All right, so at least sysops can see the deleted page. :{{ping|Nutty Roux}} I know Cosmikdebris' assertion is that the page contained partisan, contentious, and controversial statements, why are you repeating that to me? I asked Cosmikdebris to quote statements that she/he believe to be &quot;partisan, contentious, and controversial statements&quot;. I doubt new users cannot ask to argue with facts. Also, you did not answered my question: &quot;What reasons?&quot; [[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 16:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I hear this one a lot so I don’t wanna spend a long time refuting it. If you wanna watch a YouTube video [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4T45Sbkndjc this one] does that for me pretty well. Otherwise, I’ll just outline the arguments quickly and then not participate any further in the discussion bc it’s been done to death. 1) The “very fine people” thing was not the first thing trump said about the protestors — he previously gave a speech in which he didn’t identify or specifically condemn the nazi types at all, and only gave the “fine people” speech where he did condemn them several days later. 2) I can’t see the deleted article so idk what (if any) news sources it cites, but the ones from reputable sources (eg NYT, NPR, whatever) that did call him out do, in fact, mention that he said “I don’t mean the nazis” and quote him saying so. 3) The UtR rally was explicitly organised as a far-right/neo-nazi/neo-confederate rally — take a look at the guest speakers, organisers, and advertisements for it for evidence. 4) There were no “fine people”/non-racists there, because non-racists don’t show up to protect a confederate statue and then march along with huge quantities of nazi symbols, slogans, confederate flags, Richard Spencer, David Duke, and so on. 5) Drawing any kind of equivalence between that kind of rally and the people protesting them is egregious and fucked. 6) The news sources calling out trump’s bullshit mention these things and these are the specific problems they have with him. So put simply, the media didn’t get it wrong, Trump only condemned the racists after previously refusing to, the rally was explicitly and inherently racist, and the news organisations were rightly calling out Trump’s attempts to whitewash an openly fascist rally attended by a domestic terrorist, as well as his drawing of a false equivalence between that and people protesting against that. You’ll can do what you want I guess but I would very strongly advise against restoring an article that’s further propagating a bullshit myth designed to further rehabilitate the image of a fascist rally and a president who attempted to obfuscate its true nature. [[Special:Contributions/49.182.47.130|49.182.47.130]] ([[User talk:49.182.47.130|talk]]) 16:10, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I think 49.182 above has summarized very nicely the issues I have with the draft article, and in a broader sense, the &quot;partisan, contentious, and controversial&quot; components of this issue. —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::{{ping|Cosmikdebris}} 49.182.47.130 cannot see the deleted page since he is not a sysop, and anyway she/he did not commented about it. I ask you for a third time: Please quote which parts of the deleted page are &quot;partisan, contentious, and controversial statements&quot;[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 16:44, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::It's right there in the name. Calling it a hoax. It's not hard to insinuate the rest of the page from there. In fact, I'll point out that even in your deleted quotes, all Trump has been doing is deflecting the question, and instead just says they ''should'' be condemned and his &quot;very fine people on both sides&quot; comment is the closest he gets to actually expressing a real moral judgement he can make, which... not a good look in the ''slightest'', so it's not a hoax to claim that this is his most direct value judgement on the neonazis on UtR. Anyway, this is a blatant [[PragerU]] talking point and we can debunk this into infinity if we really wanted to, but the BoN did it better than I ever could and that's without them even having to see the page. Get a bit more creative than repeating points made by hacks like Dennis Prager. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:46, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|The Crow}} Did you actually see the deleted page?[[User:Pam|Pam]] ([[User talk:Pam|talk]]) 17:51, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I would personally have left the page in draft space. I saw it, I don't think it would have been worth keeping. While Trump did not directly call neo-nazis fine people and claimed that not everybody at the rally was a white supremacist (a hell of a stretch, because I can't imagine a cause where I'd be willing to attend the same demonstration as neo-nazis), we don't need an entire article dedicated to semantic arguments proving it. If you want to add a clarification to the Trump article or even [[Unite the Right]], you may do so- assuming the information isn't already there.--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 17:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::The problem with the page was two-fold. 1) It is not a hoax: Trump factually said it. At best, one could argue that it was quote mining by the media. 2) The reason that it was not even quote mining is that the UTR rally was created expressly to unite a diverse group of Nazi-aligned ''Arschlöcher''. So, Trump said there were some fine people among this group. It's not even quote mining because even ''The Daily Stormer'' called the whole bunch of groups Nazis. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2226690</id> <title>RationalWiki:Chicken coop</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2226690"/> <updated>2020-09-15T21:32:48Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Derp */ <hr /> <div>__NEWSECTIONLINK__{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}[[Category:RationalWiki]][[Category:RationalWiki moderation]][[Category:Turdblossoms]] [[Category:Shit articles]] {{hatnote|Not to be confused with the [[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation|moderator noticeboard]].}} {{talkpage |search=yes}} {{shortcut|RW:CC|RW:COOP}} &lt;!-- {{/status|}} --&gt; {{/status|4}} The '''chicken coop''' is for the avoidance, containment and resolution of cases of [[Headless Chicken Mode]] (HCM). Despite the name, this tends to be serious business. This page can be used for reporting cases of administrative abuse (abuse of [[RationalWiki:Sysop guide|sysop]] or [[RationalWiki:Moderators|moderator]] abilities such as blocking, page deletion, or user rights management), general abuse (such as [[troll]]ing, [[wandalism]], and personal attacks), and '''conflicts which cannot be solved through normal talk page discussion''' (such as long-standing edit wars or article content disputes). Please be specific and include links to any relevant discussions, page edits or logs. All editors are welcome to comment on the cases raised here, and to try to reach a consensus on any action to be taken. If no consensus can be reached, and the HCM seems to be escalating, moderators are expected to take some action. However, any serious or permanent solution, such as removal of rights or lengthy ban, requires a community vote here according to the guidelines laid out in our [[RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Voting|Community Standards]]. '''Please''' try to resolve conflicts directly through discussion on other editor's talk pages '''before''' reporting them. It's better to just talk to someone rather than try to drag their name through the mud. If the issue is not conflict resolution, but concerns RationalWiki policies, suggested changes to how things work around here, or similar matters of principle, please post '''[[RationalWiki talk:Community Standards|on the Community Standards talk page]] instead. When presenting a case here, be sure to include ''whom'' you are accusing, what exactly you are accusing them ''of'', some hard ''evidence'', and a brief ''explanation''. Since the sole purpose of the Coop is to resolve these disputes, don't post unrelated or more generalized complaints here — if you do, your posts will be moved off the page. Any vote started within 48 hours of filing will be deleted and you will be blocked. Use {{tl|CoopNotice}} to inform the user in question, so that they have a chance to discuss their actions here. As a final note, if you think this page is a good tactic to apply in gaming the mob into doing your bidding, you may be shocked to see your post archived ''quite'' swiftly. == Ban Smith == I propose to formally ban the user known as &quot;Smith&quot; for the offenses of: # Doxing me and at least 3 other members of this site on various talk pages here and creating at least 2 libellous attack pages on editors here. # Doxing members of this site on [[Kiwi Farms]] and Reddit and elsewhere. # Attempting to bulk delete pages here in [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?oldid=2040594 connection with] a lawsuit and causing disruption in the process along with arguably shifting the legal responsibility for those pages onto the site users who voted to keep them. # Deliberately introducing defamatory material to multiple pages as part of a [http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2019/3393.html dispute] with some crank. # Using this site to carry out a flame war with [[Mikemikev]] and [[Abd]] for several years including impersonating both on several occasions. # Vandalism and trolling with &quot;throwaway&quot; accounts to disrupt site processes on numerous occasions. I'm not going to specify any evidence because the most relevant evidence is suppressed and everyone with suppression access is well aware of the situation already. Just remember voting starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Discussion === :so we are being asked to vote to ban a user few of us actually know who they are with no evidence provided? another coop another farce. [[User:AMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] ([[User talk:AMassiveGay|talk]]) 12:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yes exactly that. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::It's honestly difficult to get the details clear, since a lot was suppressed. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus That said, this discussion remains] as well as the AfD Ze has linked. It appears to be tied to the [[Mikemikev]]/[[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]] drama, the former of whom got banned from RW for... what should frankly be obvious reasons (just read his page lol). I'll be frank, I won't vote in the Smith stuff since I don't know this particular drama shitstorm surrounding those two, but as far as I'm concerned, there is not exactly a great loss to the wiki should they remain gone? -Also just to quickly clarify, this coop isn't about nobs lol-. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Not banning him would kinda send the message that doxing is ok here so my vote is settled already. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Smith's only real activity here was and is meant to further internet grudges and escalate drama. It's caused problems on more than one occasion. Not an editor we need to keep around. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 13:21, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Funny comment considering I've added the most articles of any editor to RationalWiki. Most the people criticising me instead don't add constructive content but use this wiki as a chat-room such as Saloon bar (a place I've virtually never visited).[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: I've never doxed, impersonated or defamed anyone, notice as well no evidence is ever presented for these wild allegations. Ze has engaged in a gaslighting campaign against me for some time and nothing they post about me is accurate. They link to the preliminary judgement ''Kirkegaard v Smith [2019] EWHC 3393 (QB)'' but that has nothing to do with RationalWiki. I was never sued for comments I made on this wiki so claims I have posted libel on this wiki are blatantly false. And I won the lawsuit - Kirkegaard discontinued in May and has to pay my legal fees as the losing party. The preliminary judgement concerned fact versus opinion and ruled my comments were &quot;expressions of opinion and are defamatory&quot; ''however'' the judge pointed out &quot;For the avoidance of doubt, I am not deciding the question of serious harm under s 1 of the Defamation Act 2013.&quot; (the preliminary was to determine whether my comments were fact or opinion not the question of serious harm and I won it on the basis I was arguing my comments were opinions while Kirkegaard incorrectly said they were facts and he was criticised by the judge for taking my comments out of context). Had it gone to full trial or summary judgement (I filed for) a judge would have decided if my comments were either honest opinion (my legal defence) or defamation based on the serious harm question. Kirkegaard discontinued the lawsuit shortly before the judge was going to decide this knowing he/she would almost certainly have ruled my opinions were honestly held rather than defamation. So did I defame him? No. It' s highly misleading to say I did since my comments were upheld as honest opinion which provides a legal defence to defamation (other than truth) and he discontinued the lawsuit knowing the judge in the summary judgement would have ruled my comments did not cause him serious harm. Of course, I don't expect Ze (formerly EK) or Dysk (aka D) to acknowledge this and both of them have spent the past year character assassinating me on Reddit and various wiki-related forums over this lawsuit. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} :You doxed me [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=2073359&amp;oldid=2073357&amp;unhide=1 here] and then a bunch of other times that I could find if you really want and then doxed other editors later and when your comments were suppressed you went to do the same thing on other sites including [[Kiwi Farms]] whose users still follow me around to harrass even now because of it. {{User:Ze/?}} 14:02, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Upon further consideration, I changed my mind. I hadn't quite seen the KiwiFarms shit. Let me be clear here, anyone who is on that site and thinks that posting anything to do with a member here is an A-Okay thing can honestly and directly fuck off. Smith needs as far as I am concerned no more place here. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: I've never doxed Ze - they formerly used their name initials (EK) on RationalWiki which is public knowledge. They renamed their account. They were banned from Wikipedia for trolling using their real name. How is any of this doxing if they've publicly used their real name as their account name on Wikipedia and used their initials on RationalWiki? If you go down that road and define doxing as someone who posts public information then by the same definition Ze (aka EK) has doxed me by posting my name Oliver Smith all over the place.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: LOL. If you want to ban people who post on Kiwi Farms, then ban EK/Ze - she posts there and libelled me as a pedophile on an account. It would be pretty moronic to deny this is her since the account is an SPA dedicated to attacking me and contains the same &quot;feminazi&quot; name description. EK/Ze has been using Kiwi Farms to libel me for months.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} My account initials were never connected to any name until you decided to do that, obviously it was public knowledge after you made it public knowledge which is what you must have wanted. The Zionist Feminazi account on Kiwifarms is obviously not me, and in addition to calling you a pedophile it doxes LGM, posts personal information about Dysk, claims Bongolian is your brother, and calls various peeps here SJWs which tbf is fairly standard for all the posters on that thread. It also engages in severe transphobia against dysk which seems cringe and is ngl a lot like your own very transphobic comments about dysk you made [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&amp;target=Arthur+Kerensa&amp;timestamp=20190426123447 here] which is now suppressed. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :What personal info from me was revealed? DM may be appropriate. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account on Kiwifarms is Ze who calls herself a feminazi here. Ze and Dysk claim to be siblings in real life. The &quot;Zionist Feminist&quot; account on Kiwi Farms libeled me as a pedophile and it is ''only'' Ze/Dysk that repeats the libel on that account. Ze is also involved with Mikemikev drama and note the only other thread the Feminazi account on KF posted in is Mike's. There are plenty of other evidences that account is Ze.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: On Kiwi Farms there is talk that Ze and Dysk are the same person. On his Reddit account, Dysk posted several times he is in actual fact Ze. Does anyone know what all this is about, or is it an elaborate hoax? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::It's a well known fact nothing I post on Reddit is true, I have no idea why people still take me seriously there. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::&lt;s&gt;I disagree with a ban of Smith,&lt;/s&gt; I personally don't have an opinion either way. I'd say that a stern admonishment along with a 2 way interaction ban from contacting Ze (and vice-versa) &lt;s&gt;should be sufficient in my opinion&lt;/s&gt; would be a good idea in the event that Smith is not banned. Additionally, a preemptive sysoprevoke may be in order, especially with Ze active on the site. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Kiko you are a moron, if you want to comment, make an effort to understand the situation. You want an interaction ban for someone who doxed several editors? What a joke. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Cultivating this many sockpuppets=== I don't know, man. Sockpuppetry is not explicitly against our rules. In fact having sock accounts has largely been condoned in the past. But I can't help but feel that this Oliver D. Smith business has taken it to a whole other level. It may be worth it to ban them simply because they're more trouble than they're worth. We don't need to embroil RationalWiki in a conflict spanning half the internet, just for the sake of a single user. The scale of this is... disturbing.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 18:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't see the point in any of these debates. Smith and Ze have been involved in an online slap-fight for over a year its on Kiwi Farms, discord, Reddit etc. It's impossible to have both these people on the same website. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I'd be inclined to support banning Smith just based on the scale of the drama they're embroiled in. All sorts of websites and sockpuppets and angry basement-dwellers plus at least one court case. It's not worth it to allow any chance of all that garbage spilling onto RW. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:07, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::If you look up the Wikipedia clusterfuck, EK (Ze) was indef b&amp; as a sockpuppet of Dysk (indef b&amp; as either a suspected troll or irredeemable PITA). I'd provide links, but I can't be arsed with accusations of doxxing. This whole thing is weird AF. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 20:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Ze was originally blocked due to a technical link between us, this was overturned (for Ze) by a Wikimedia steward, based on showing identity documents. Terms of the unblock followed the WP:CLEANSTART guidelines and the original account remains locked. However, despite this I personally remain banned from all Wikipedia projects, for trolling, and ban evasion. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) == Ban Abd == I can't remember exactly what this guy did but allegedly trolling and doxing were involved. I think he created a blog to attack various editors after that and the validity of what he wrote there is disputed. Like Smith he was unilaterally banned by a sysop on the basis of doxing without a coop vote, so in the interests of fairness we will confirm this ban too at the same time. Remember that the vote starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority to pass. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Disscussion === Seems like a wise idea, poking through history, it seems his community also was responsible for raiding RW or something? Anyway, that blog of his was in the abuse filter at some point if I'm not mistaken. Unlike Smith, I do think I can be confident in saying that blocking Abd is a good idea. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I mean in terms of damage Smith did more than Abd but yes both should be banned and this is more about procedure since both have been treated as banned for a long time and had hundreds of accounts blocked for ban evasion. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:26, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Abd Lomax is a threat to RationalWiki user's privacy and was rightly banned. He threatened to sue David Gerard and RationalWiki, he posted this on his website coldfusioncommunity in 2018 (if you want I can link to this). He later dropped this idea and filed a lawsuit against Wikipedia for banning him. His lawsuit against Wikipedia was dismissed with prejudice, but Abd claimed in this lawsuit that RationalWiki had 'defamed' him. On Abd's coldfusioncommunity website there are 50 negative articles dedicated to 'researching' RationalWiki editors such as Smith and their alleged sock-puppets. ::Lomax also doxed some RationalWiki staff on his website and some of that information is still live. Fuzzycatpotato has been doxed on Abd Lomax's website his real name and house address has been exposed. Ze is a close friend of Abd Lomax, indeed Lomax wrote on Reddit a few months ago he considers ZE like a &quot;daughter&quot;. Ze also has a discord &quot;The Treehouse&quot; and she invited Abd to join it, and made him a mod there. D/Ze have been in an online slapfight with Smith for a year spilling over multiple websites. We need someone totally uninvolved with this Abd or Smith drama to solve these matters. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 18:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I've only interacted with Abd once, but he did [http://coldfusioncommunity.net/anglo-pyramidologist/darryl-l-smith/skeptic-from-britain/comment-trolling/verifier/ post briefly about me on his site] (he did not doxx me) which brought it to my notice. He does seem to post a lot about RW stuff on his webpage. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Yeah well your like me anonymous so Abd can't get you but he tries to get hold of editors real life names, then he publishes it on his website. Does fuzzy know Abd has published his personal details? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I would vote Aye to a ban of Abd, but I've not been on here long enough. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ==Vote to only rehash coops for contentious or irregular old bans...if the users actually come back and contest or try to make edits== ===For=== #[[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # Smith last edited today, Abd alleged edited last a few weeks ago, both users have been constantly active for many years in spite of their bans, and both users are currently and always have contested their bans, but yes absolutely this is a good idea in general. {{User:Ze/?}} 13:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) #[[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|&lt;sup&gt;&quot;Life is short and (insert adjective)&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 15:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 15:53, 15 September 2020 (UTC) #Ban evasion is automatically cause for ban anyway.{{User:Summa Atheologica/sig}} 18:25, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Against=== ===Derp=== * I would settle for blocking my account on a voluntary basis i.e. post this user has decided to quit. Would I show up again? No. Because this time there was actually a Coop discussion rather than the irregular procedure of banning me via discord with no consensus or discussion. I returned to this wiki to add articles because there was no proper ban, rather, it was two problematic admins (Ze and Dysk) who banned me based on dubious allegations of doxing (I've rebutted these allegations above). There is also a repeated false allegation I libelled Ze or Dysk; yet last time I looked they're the people viciously smearing me on multiple websites as a child abuser and pedophile among many other outrageous claims. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 18:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) [[File:Tobias on kiwifarms 2019.png|thumb|500px|Smith calling the RationalWiki mods and sysops &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot;]] Smith you said after you wrote banned as [[User:Tobias]] that you would never return while calling the mods and sysops here &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot; and saying a highly transphobic homophobic, and ableist [[Kiwi Farms]] thread was true (See the image). Why are you back. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I agree, I think that Ze asks a fair question. That said I will add that I'm not in favour of anything other than a simple 2 way interaction ban on both Ze and Smith. Additionally, I think that Ze should be admonished for misuse of sysop. Everyone makes mistakes, but mistakes like that should never be repeated again. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::There's no transphobia, homophobia, and ableism in any of my comments on KF or anywhere else (not that I actually care). Furthermore it's pretty stupid to use that as a guilt by association fallacy when we both know you (Ze) are the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account I was responding to in that thread who was libelling me as a pedophile. To anyone who wants to actually check that full thread to get the context rather than believe Ze's quote-mines - notice my comment in the screenshot is only responding to &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; after I was provoked. And note how the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account identically matches Ze's posts and writing style, for example take the following comment they posted on Kiwi Farms: {{quotebox|May 18, 2019 Zionist Feminazi maybe the doxing has something to do with how her name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account and the harassment has something to do with how u went onto her talk page and discord to post threats and weird shit about the things u would do unless she redacted a wikipediocracy post to not mention ur insane brother who spends his time spamming reddit?}} To those familiar with Ze aka EK's writing style will know their usage of &quot;ur&quot;. Not only that but it matches identical claims they make here such as the dubious claims of doxing and how her account &quot;name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account&quot; (we've seen that same claim made above by Ze). Add this to the fact EK calls herself as a feminazi and elsewhere has claimed to support zionism plus that user only was posting in the RationalWiki and Mikemikev thread specifically to attack me -is rather conclusive its the same person. How many other people who support zionism and call themself a feminazi with the same writing style to Ze are there? I'm not sure how much more evidence other mods here would need. The fact they are denying this is them shows how highly deceptive they are. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::The Zionist Feminazi user on Kiwifarms is a former close friend of mine, I can confirm it's not Ze. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:32, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I would vote Aye, but 1) I'm not an eligible voter and 2) I think this proposal is ill concieved and we'd be better off if we did what WMF wikis do and implement a procedure for appealing bans that does not involve sockpuppetery. The problem with this proposal is that it encourages people who are banned to evade their bans. Hence invalidating their meaning and purpose. Not good. So if I were an eligible voter, I'd vote Nay, we're better off with the status quo, which at least wouldn't create a precedent that any ban retrospectively deemed &quot;invalid&quot; may simply be disregarded without consequence. This isn't an Anarchy, or a battleground. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:50, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't even understand whey this is a vote. Abd is a certified doxer. I'm not about to give Smith the benefit of the doubt, particularly if there is confirmation that Smith is a doxer. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Either way I think that Smith has admitted to being a sockpuppet of [[User:Tobias]] who has already been indefinitely banned. So I fully agree with you, on the basis of that evidence alone, there appears to be no need for a vote. I don't see why we can't just summarily ban Smith aka Tobias aka Flight instead of bothering with a vote, which is just a waste of everyone's time. If Smith wishes to appeal the ban, and sees it as unjust, and intends to edit there are already proper channels for doing so e.g. on his talk page (if not revoked), by email (if not revoked), or by Discord. If both his talk page, and email access have been revoked, and he is banned from the Discord server, then tough shit. That's his problem, not our problem. If that's the case then we can just ban him, then Forget It, Move On. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: @ Kiko and Bongolian - my Tobias account was banned without the correct procedure. It was banned with no discussion or vote based on a dubious claim of doxing. I dispute the doxing claim because all I did is link to Ze (aka EK) Wikipedia account. That's all I ever did. I don't consider that doxing. Ze's dubious claim is it was doxing because she had not mentioned/linked her Wikipedia account on RationalWiki. Wikipedia accounts are public. Perhaps the reason Ze acted the way they did is because their Wikipedia account is perm banned for trolling and they're a notorious sockpuppeteer - there's dozens of accounts banned under their name. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Are we going to ignore you doxing Greenrd, Occam, and that you posted Ze's full name which isn't in the Wikipedia link? Get real mate, you can focus on one thing, and there are a dozen more offenses I can list. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2226689</id> <title>RationalWiki:Chicken coop</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2226689"/> <updated>2020-09-15T21:31:04Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Discussion */ <hr /> <div>__NEWSECTIONLINK__{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}[[Category:RationalWiki]][[Category:RationalWiki moderation]][[Category:Turdblossoms]] [[Category:Shit articles]] {{hatnote|Not to be confused with the [[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation|moderator noticeboard]].}} {{talkpage |search=yes}} {{shortcut|RW:CC|RW:COOP}} &lt;!-- {{/status|}} --&gt; {{/status|4}} The '''chicken coop''' is for the avoidance, containment and resolution of cases of [[Headless Chicken Mode]] (HCM). Despite the name, this tends to be serious business. This page can be used for reporting cases of administrative abuse (abuse of [[RationalWiki:Sysop guide|sysop]] or [[RationalWiki:Moderators|moderator]] abilities such as blocking, page deletion, or user rights management), general abuse (such as [[troll]]ing, [[wandalism]], and personal attacks), and '''conflicts which cannot be solved through normal talk page discussion''' (such as long-standing edit wars or article content disputes). Please be specific and include links to any relevant discussions, page edits or logs. All editors are welcome to comment on the cases raised here, and to try to reach a consensus on any action to be taken. If no consensus can be reached, and the HCM seems to be escalating, moderators are expected to take some action. However, any serious or permanent solution, such as removal of rights or lengthy ban, requires a community vote here according to the guidelines laid out in our [[RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Voting|Community Standards]]. '''Please''' try to resolve conflicts directly through discussion on other editor's talk pages '''before''' reporting them. It's better to just talk to someone rather than try to drag their name through the mud. If the issue is not conflict resolution, but concerns RationalWiki policies, suggested changes to how things work around here, or similar matters of principle, please post '''[[RationalWiki talk:Community Standards|on the Community Standards talk page]] instead. When presenting a case here, be sure to include ''whom'' you are accusing, what exactly you are accusing them ''of'', some hard ''evidence'', and a brief ''explanation''. Since the sole purpose of the Coop is to resolve these disputes, don't post unrelated or more generalized complaints here — if you do, your posts will be moved off the page. Any vote started within 48 hours of filing will be deleted and you will be blocked. Use {{tl|CoopNotice}} to inform the user in question, so that they have a chance to discuss their actions here. As a final note, if you think this page is a good tactic to apply in gaming the mob into doing your bidding, you may be shocked to see your post archived ''quite'' swiftly. == Ban Smith == I propose to formally ban the user known as &quot;Smith&quot; for the offenses of: # Doxing me and at least 3 other members of this site on various talk pages here and creating at least 2 libellous attack pages on editors here. # Doxing members of this site on [[Kiwi Farms]] and Reddit and elsewhere. # Attempting to bulk delete pages here in [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?oldid=2040594 connection with] a lawsuit and causing disruption in the process along with arguably shifting the legal responsibility for those pages onto the site users who voted to keep them. # Deliberately introducing defamatory material to multiple pages as part of a [http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2019/3393.html dispute] with some crank. # Using this site to carry out a flame war with [[Mikemikev]] and [[Abd]] for several years including impersonating both on several occasions. # Vandalism and trolling with &quot;throwaway&quot; accounts to disrupt site processes on numerous occasions. I'm not going to specify any evidence because the most relevant evidence is suppressed and everyone with suppression access is well aware of the situation already. Just remember voting starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Discussion === :so we are being asked to vote to ban a user few of us actually know who they are with no evidence provided? another coop another farce. [[User:AMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] ([[User talk:AMassiveGay|talk]]) 12:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yes exactly that. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::It's honestly difficult to get the details clear, since a lot was suppressed. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus That said, this discussion remains] as well as the AfD Ze has linked. It appears to be tied to the [[Mikemikev]]/[[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]] drama, the former of whom got banned from RW for... what should frankly be obvious reasons (just read his page lol). I'll be frank, I won't vote in the Smith stuff since I don't know this particular drama shitstorm surrounding those two, but as far as I'm concerned, there is not exactly a great loss to the wiki should they remain gone? -Also just to quickly clarify, this coop isn't about nobs lol-. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Not banning him would kinda send the message that doxing is ok here so my vote is settled already. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Smith's only real activity here was and is meant to further internet grudges and escalate drama. It's caused problems on more than one occasion. Not an editor we need to keep around. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 13:21, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Funny comment considering I've added the most articles of any editor to RationalWiki. Most the people criticising me instead don't add constructive content but use this wiki as a chat-room such as Saloon bar (a place I've virtually never visited).[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: I've never doxed, impersonated or defamed anyone, notice as well no evidence is ever presented for these wild allegations. Ze has engaged in a gaslighting campaign against me for some time and nothing they post about me is accurate. They link to the preliminary judgement ''Kirkegaard v Smith [2019] EWHC 3393 (QB)'' but that has nothing to do with RationalWiki. I was never sued for comments I made on this wiki so claims I have posted libel on this wiki are blatantly false. And I won the lawsuit - Kirkegaard discontinued in May and has to pay my legal fees as the losing party. The preliminary judgement concerned fact versus opinion and ruled my comments were &quot;expressions of opinion and are defamatory&quot; ''however'' the judge pointed out &quot;For the avoidance of doubt, I am not deciding the question of serious harm under s 1 of the Defamation Act 2013.&quot; (the preliminary was to determine whether my comments were fact or opinion not the question of serious harm and I won it on the basis I was arguing my comments were opinions while Kirkegaard incorrectly said they were facts and he was criticised by the judge for taking my comments out of context). Had it gone to full trial or summary judgement (I filed for) a judge would have decided if my comments were either honest opinion (my legal defence) or defamation based on the serious harm question. Kirkegaard discontinued the lawsuit shortly before the judge was going to decide this knowing he/she would almost certainly have ruled my opinions were honestly held rather than defamation. So did I defame him? No. It' s highly misleading to say I did since my comments were upheld as honest opinion which provides a legal defence to defamation (other than truth) and he discontinued the lawsuit knowing the judge in the summary judgement would have ruled my comments did not cause him serious harm. Of course, I don't expect Ze (formerly EK) or Dysk (aka D) to acknowledge this and both of them have spent the past year character assassinating me on Reddit and various wiki-related forums over this lawsuit. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} :You doxed me [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=2073359&amp;oldid=2073357&amp;unhide=1 here] and then a bunch of other times that I could find if you really want and then doxed other editors later and when your comments were suppressed you went to do the same thing on other sites including [[Kiwi Farms]] whose users still follow me around to harrass even now because of it. {{User:Ze/?}} 14:02, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Upon further consideration, I changed my mind. I hadn't quite seen the KiwiFarms shit. Let me be clear here, anyone who is on that site and thinks that posting anything to do with a member here is an A-Okay thing can honestly and directly fuck off. Smith needs as far as I am concerned no more place here. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: I've never doxed Ze - they formerly used their name initials (EK) on RationalWiki which is public knowledge. They renamed their account. They were banned from Wikipedia for trolling using their real name. How is any of this doxing if they've publicly used their real name as their account name on Wikipedia and used their initials on RationalWiki? If you go down that road and define doxing as someone who posts public information then by the same definition Ze (aka EK) has doxed me by posting my name Oliver Smith all over the place.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: LOL. If you want to ban people who post on Kiwi Farms, then ban EK/Ze - she posts there and libelled me as a pedophile on an account. It would be pretty moronic to deny this is her since the account is an SPA dedicated to attacking me and contains the same &quot;feminazi&quot; name description. EK/Ze has been using Kiwi Farms to libel me for months.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} My account initials were never connected to any name until you decided to do that, obviously it was public knowledge after you made it public knowledge which is what you must have wanted. The Zionist Feminazi account on Kiwifarms is obviously not me, and in addition to calling you a pedophile it doxes LGM, posts personal information about Dysk, claims Bongolian is your brother, and calls various peeps here SJWs which tbf is fairly standard for all the posters on that thread. It also engages in severe transphobia against dysk which seems cringe and is ngl a lot like your own very transphobic comments about dysk you made [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&amp;target=Arthur+Kerensa&amp;timestamp=20190426123447 here] which is now suppressed. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :What personal info from me was revealed? DM may be appropriate. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account on Kiwifarms is Ze who calls herself a feminazi here. Ze and Dysk claim to be siblings in real life. The &quot;Zionist Feminist&quot; account on Kiwi Farms libeled me as a pedophile and it is ''only'' Ze/Dysk that repeats the libel on that account. Ze is also involved with Mikemikev drama and note the only other thread the Feminazi account on KF posted in is Mike's. There are plenty of other evidences that account is Ze.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: On Kiwi Farms there is talk that Ze and Dysk are the same person. On his Reddit account, Dysk posted several times he is in actual fact Ze. Does anyone know what all this is about, or is it an elaborate hoax? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::It's a well known fact nothing I post on Reddit is true, I have no idea why people still take me seriously there. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::&lt;s&gt;I disagree with a ban of Smith,&lt;/s&gt; I personally don't have an opinion either way. I'd say that a stern admonishment along with a 2 way interaction ban from contacting Ze (and vice-versa) &lt;s&gt;should be sufficient in my opinion&lt;/s&gt; would be a good idea in the event that Smith is not banned. Additionally, a preemptive sysoprevoke may be in order, especially with Ze active on the site. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Kiko you are a moron, if you want to comment, make an effort to understand the situation. You want an interaction ban for someone who doxed several editors? What a joke. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Cultivating this many sockpuppets=== I don't know, man. Sockpuppetry is not explicitly against our rules. In fact having sock accounts has largely been condoned in the past. But I can't help but feel that this Oliver D. Smith business has taken it to a whole other level. It may be worth it to ban them simply because they're more trouble than they're worth. We don't need to embroil RationalWiki in a conflict spanning half the internet, just for the sake of a single user. The scale of this is... disturbing.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 18:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't see the point in any of these debates. Smith and Ze have been involved in an online slap-fight for over a year its on Kiwi Farms, discord, Reddit etc. It's impossible to have both these people on the same website. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I'd be inclined to support banning Smith just based on the scale of the drama they're embroiled in. All sorts of websites and sockpuppets and angry basement-dwellers plus at least one court case. It's not worth it to allow any chance of all that garbage spilling onto RW. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:07, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::If you look up the Wikipedia clusterfuck, EK (Ze) was indef b&amp; as a sockpuppet of Dysk (indef b&amp; as either a suspected troll or irredeemable PITA). I'd provide links, but I can't be arsed with accusations of doxxing. This whole thing is weird AF. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 20:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Ze was originally blocked due to a technical link between us, this was overturned (for Ze) by a Wikimedia steward, based on showing identity documents. Terms of the unblock followed the WP:CLEANSTART guidelines and the original account remains locked. However, despite this I personally remain banned from all Wikipedia projects, for trolling, and ban evasion. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) == Ban Abd == I can't remember exactly what this guy did but allegedly trolling and doxing were involved. I think he created a blog to attack various editors after that and the validity of what he wrote there is disputed. Like Smith he was unilaterally banned by a sysop on the basis of doxing without a coop vote, so in the interests of fairness we will confirm this ban too at the same time. Remember that the vote starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority to pass. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Disscussion === Seems like a wise idea, poking through history, it seems his community also was responsible for raiding RW or something? Anyway, that blog of his was in the abuse filter at some point if I'm not mistaken. Unlike Smith, I do think I can be confident in saying that blocking Abd is a good idea. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I mean in terms of damage Smith did more than Abd but yes both should be banned and this is more about procedure since both have been treated as banned for a long time and had hundreds of accounts blocked for ban evasion. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:26, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Abd Lomax is a threat to RationalWiki user's privacy and was rightly banned. He threatened to sue David Gerard and RationalWiki, he posted this on his website coldfusioncommunity in 2018 (if you want I can link to this). He later dropped this idea and filed a lawsuit against Wikipedia for banning him. His lawsuit against Wikipedia was dismissed with prejudice, but Abd claimed in this lawsuit that RationalWiki had 'defamed' him. On Abd's coldfusioncommunity website there are 50 negative articles dedicated to 'researching' RationalWiki editors such as Smith and their alleged sock-puppets. ::Lomax also doxed some RationalWiki staff on his website and some of that information is still live. Fuzzycatpotato has been doxed on Abd Lomax's website his real name and house address has been exposed. Ze is a close friend of Abd Lomax, indeed Lomax wrote on Reddit a few months ago he considers ZE like a &quot;daughter&quot;. Ze also has a discord &quot;The Treehouse&quot; and she invited Abd to join it, and made him a mod there. D/Ze have been in an online slapfight with Smith for a year spilling over multiple websites. We need someone totally uninvolved with this Abd or Smith drama to solve these matters. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 18:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I've only interacted with Abd once, but he did [http://coldfusioncommunity.net/anglo-pyramidologist/darryl-l-smith/skeptic-from-britain/comment-trolling/verifier/ post briefly about me on his site] (he did not doxx me) which brought it to my notice. He does seem to post a lot about RW stuff on his webpage. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Yeah well your like me anonymous so Abd can't get you but he tries to get hold of editors real life names, then he publishes it on his website. Does fuzzy know Abd has published his personal details? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I would vote Aye to a ban of Abd, but I've not been on here long enough. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ==Vote to only rehash coops for contentious or irregular old bans...if the users actually come back and contest or try to make edits== ===For=== #[[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # Smith last edited today, Abd alleged edited last a few weeks ago, both users have been constantly active for many years in spite of their bans, and both users are currently and always have contested their bans, but yes absolutely this is a good idea in general. {{User:Ze/?}} 13:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) #[[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|&lt;sup&gt;&quot;Life is short and (insert adjective)&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 15:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 15:53, 15 September 2020 (UTC) #Ban evasion is automatically cause for ban anyway.{{User:Summa Atheologica/sig}} 18:25, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Against=== ===Derp=== * I would settle for blocking my account on a voluntary basis i.e. post this user has decided to quit. Would I show up again? No. Because this time there was actually a Coop discussion rather than the irregular procedure of banning me via discord with no consensus or discussion. I returned to this wiki to add articles because there was no proper ban, rather, it was two problematic admins (Ze and Dysk) who banned me based on dubious allegations of doxing (I've rebutted these allegations above). There is also a repeated false allegation I libelled Ze or Dysk; yet last time I looked they're the people viciously smearing me on multiple websites as a child abuser and pedophile among many other outrageous claims. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 18:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) [[File:Tobias on kiwifarms 2019.png|thumb|500px|Smith calling the RationalWiki mods and sysops &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot;]] Smith you said after you wrote banned as [[User:Tobias]] that you would never return while calling the mods and sysops here &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot; and saying a highly transphobic homophobic, and ableist [[Kiwi Farms]] thread was true (See the image). Why are you back. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I agree, I think that Ze asks a fair question. That said I will add that I'm not in favour of anything other than a simple 2 way interaction ban on both Ze and Smith. Additionally, I think that Ze should be admonished for misuse of sysop. Everyone makes mistakes, but mistakes like that should never be repeated again. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::There's no transphobia, homophobia, and ableism in any of my comments on KF or anywhere else (not that I actually care). Furthermore it's pretty stupid to use that as a guilt by association fallacy when we both know you (Ze) are the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account I was responding to in that thread who was libelling me as a pedophile. To anyone who wants to actually check that full thread to get the context rather than believe Ze's quote-mines - notice my comment in the screenshot is only responding to &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; after I was provoked. And note how the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account identically matches Ze's posts and writing style, for example take the following comment they posted on Kiwi Farms: {{quotebox|May 18, 2019 Zionist Feminazi maybe the doxing has something to do with how her name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account and the harassment has something to do with how u went onto her talk page and discord to post threats and weird shit about the things u would do unless she redacted a wikipediocracy post to not mention ur insane brother who spends his time spamming reddit?}} To those familiar with Ze aka EK's writing style will know their usage of &quot;ur&quot;. Not only that but it matches identical claims they make here such as the dubious claims of doxing and how her account &quot;name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account&quot; (we've seen that same claim made above by Ze). Add this to the fact EK calls herself as a feminazi and elsewhere has claimed to support zionism plus that user only was posting in the RationalWiki and Mikemikev thread specifically to attack me -is rather conclusive its the same person. How many other people who support zionism and call themself a feminazi with the same writing style to Ze are there? I'm not sure how much more evidence other mods here would need. The fact they are denying this is them shows how highly deceptive they are. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I would vote Aye, but 1) I'm not an eligible voter and 2) I think this proposal is ill concieved and we'd be better off if we did what WMF wikis do and implement a procedure for appealing bans that does not involve sockpuppetery. The problem with this proposal is that it encourages people who are banned to evade their bans. Hence invalidating their meaning and purpose. Not good. So if I were an eligible voter, I'd vote Nay, we're better off with the status quo, which at least wouldn't create a precedent that any ban retrospectively deemed &quot;invalid&quot; may simply be disregarded without consequence. This isn't an Anarchy, or a battleground. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:50, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't even understand whey this is a vote. Abd is a certified doxer. I'm not about to give Smith the benefit of the doubt, particularly if there is confirmation that Smith is a doxer. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Either way I think that Smith has admitted to being a sockpuppet of [[User:Tobias]] who has already been indefinitely banned. So I fully agree with you, on the basis of that evidence alone, there appears to be no need for a vote. I don't see why we can't just summarily ban Smith aka Tobias aka Flight instead of bothering with a vote, which is just a waste of everyone's time. If Smith wishes to appeal the ban, and sees it as unjust, and intends to edit there are already proper channels for doing so e.g. on his talk page (if not revoked), by email (if not revoked), or by Discord. If both his talk page, and email access have been revoked, and he is banned from the Discord server, then tough shit. That's his problem, not our problem. If that's the case then we can just ban him, then Forget It, Move On. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: @ Kiko and Bongolian - my Tobias account was banned without the correct procedure. It was banned with no discussion or vote based on a dubious claim of doxing. I dispute the doxing claim because all I did is link to Ze (aka EK) Wikipedia account. That's all I ever did. I don't consider that doxing. Ze's dubious claim is it was doxing because she had not mentioned/linked her Wikipedia account on RationalWiki. Wikipedia accounts are public. Perhaps the reason Ze acted the way they did is because their Wikipedia account is perm banned for trolling and they're a notorious sockpuppeteer - there's dozens of accounts banned under their name. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Are we going to ignore you doxing Greenrd, Occam, and that you posted Ze's full name which isn't in the Wikipedia link? Get real mate, you can focus on one thing, and there are a dozen more offenses I can list. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2226686</id> <title>RationalWiki:Chicken coop</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2226686"/> <updated>2020-09-15T21:28:42Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Discussion */ <hr /> <div>__NEWSECTIONLINK__{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}[[Category:RationalWiki]][[Category:RationalWiki moderation]][[Category:Turdblossoms]] [[Category:Shit articles]] {{hatnote|Not to be confused with the [[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation|moderator noticeboard]].}} {{talkpage |search=yes}} {{shortcut|RW:CC|RW:COOP}} &lt;!-- {{/status|}} --&gt; {{/status|4}} The '''chicken coop''' is for the avoidance, containment and resolution of cases of [[Headless Chicken Mode]] (HCM). Despite the name, this tends to be serious business. This page can be used for reporting cases of administrative abuse (abuse of [[RationalWiki:Sysop guide|sysop]] or [[RationalWiki:Moderators|moderator]] abilities such as blocking, page deletion, or user rights management), general abuse (such as [[troll]]ing, [[wandalism]], and personal attacks), and '''conflicts which cannot be solved through normal talk page discussion''' (such as long-standing edit wars or article content disputes). Please be specific and include links to any relevant discussions, page edits or logs. All editors are welcome to comment on the cases raised here, and to try to reach a consensus on any action to be taken. If no consensus can be reached, and the HCM seems to be escalating, moderators are expected to take some action. However, any serious or permanent solution, such as removal of rights or lengthy ban, requires a community vote here according to the guidelines laid out in our [[RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Voting|Community Standards]]. '''Please''' try to resolve conflicts directly through discussion on other editor's talk pages '''before''' reporting them. It's better to just talk to someone rather than try to drag their name through the mud. If the issue is not conflict resolution, but concerns RationalWiki policies, suggested changes to how things work around here, or similar matters of principle, please post '''[[RationalWiki talk:Community Standards|on the Community Standards talk page]] instead. When presenting a case here, be sure to include ''whom'' you are accusing, what exactly you are accusing them ''of'', some hard ''evidence'', and a brief ''explanation''. Since the sole purpose of the Coop is to resolve these disputes, don't post unrelated or more generalized complaints here — if you do, your posts will be moved off the page. Any vote started within 48 hours of filing will be deleted and you will be blocked. Use {{tl|CoopNotice}} to inform the user in question, so that they have a chance to discuss their actions here. As a final note, if you think this page is a good tactic to apply in gaming the mob into doing your bidding, you may be shocked to see your post archived ''quite'' swiftly. == Ban Smith == I propose to formally ban the user known as &quot;Smith&quot; for the offenses of: # Doxing me and at least 3 other members of this site on various talk pages here and creating at least 2 libellous attack pages on editors here. # Doxing members of this site on [[Kiwi Farms]] and Reddit and elsewhere. # Attempting to bulk delete pages here in [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?oldid=2040594 connection with] a lawsuit and causing disruption in the process along with arguably shifting the legal responsibility for those pages onto the site users who voted to keep them. # Deliberately introducing defamatory material to multiple pages as part of a [http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2019/3393.html dispute] with some crank. # Using this site to carry out a flame war with [[Mikemikev]] and [[Abd]] for several years including impersonating both on several occasions. # Vandalism and trolling with &quot;throwaway&quot; accounts to disrupt site processes on numerous occasions. I'm not going to specify any evidence because the most relevant evidence is suppressed and everyone with suppression access is well aware of the situation already. Just remember voting starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Discussion === :so we are being asked to vote to ban a user few of us actually know who they are with no evidence provided? another coop another farce. [[User:AMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] ([[User talk:AMassiveGay|talk]]) 12:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yes exactly that. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::It's honestly difficult to get the details clear, since a lot was suppressed. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus That said, this discussion remains] as well as the AfD Ze has linked. It appears to be tied to the [[Mikemikev]]/[[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]] drama, the former of whom got banned from RW for... what should frankly be obvious reasons (just read his page lol). I'll be frank, I won't vote in the Smith stuff since I don't know this particular drama shitstorm surrounding those two, but as far as I'm concerned, there is not exactly a great loss to the wiki should they remain gone? -Also just to quickly clarify, this coop isn't about nobs lol-. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Not banning him would kinda send the message that doxing is ok here so my vote is settled already. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Smith's only real activity here was and is meant to further internet grudges and escalate drama. It's caused problems on more than one occasion. Not an editor we need to keep around. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 13:21, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Funny comment considering I've added the most articles of any editor to RationalWiki. Most the people criticising me instead don't add constructive content but use this wiki as a chat-room such as Saloon bar (a place I've virtually never visited).[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: I've never doxed, impersonated or defamed anyone, notice as well no evidence is ever presented for these wild allegations. Ze has engaged in a gaslighting campaign against me for some time and nothing they post about me is accurate. They link to the preliminary judgement ''Kirkegaard v Smith [2019] EWHC 3393 (QB)'' but that has nothing to do with RationalWiki. I was never sued for comments I made on this wiki so claims I have posted libel on this wiki are blatantly false. And I won the lawsuit - Kirkegaard discontinued in May and has to pay my legal fees as the losing party. The preliminary judgement concerned fact versus opinion and ruled my comments were &quot;expressions of opinion and are defamatory&quot; ''however'' the judge pointed out &quot;For the avoidance of doubt, I am not deciding the question of serious harm under s 1 of the Defamation Act 2013.&quot; (the preliminary was to determine whether my comments were fact or opinion not the question of serious harm and I won it on the basis I was arguing my comments were opinions while Kirkegaard incorrectly said they were facts and he was criticised by the judge for taking my comments out of context). Had it gone to full trial or summary judgement (I filed for) a judge would have decided if my comments were either honest opinion (my legal defence) or defamation based on the serious harm question. Kirkegaard discontinued the lawsuit shortly before the judge was going to decide this knowing he/she would almost certainly have ruled my opinions were honestly held rather than defamation. So did I defame him? No. It' s highly misleading to say I did since my comments were upheld as honest opinion which provides a legal defence to defamation (other than truth) and he discontinued the lawsuit knowing the judge in the summary judgement would have ruled my comments did not cause him serious harm. Of course, I don't expect Ze (formerly EK) or Dysk (aka D) to acknowledge this and both of them have spent the past year character assassinating me on Reddit and various wiki-related forums over this lawsuit. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} :You doxed me [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=2073359&amp;oldid=2073357&amp;unhide=1 here] and then a bunch of other times that I could find if you really want and then doxed other editors later and when your comments were suppressed you went to do the same thing on other sites including [[Kiwi Farms]] whose users still follow me around to harrass even now because of it. {{User:Ze/?}} 14:02, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Upon further consideration, I changed my mind. I hadn't quite seen the KiwiFarms shit. Let me be clear here, anyone who is on that site and thinks that posting anything to do with a member here is an A-Okay thing can honestly and directly fuck off. Smith needs as far as I am concerned no more place here. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: I've never doxed Ze - they formerly used their name initials (EK) on RationalWiki which is public knowledge. They renamed their account. They were banned from Wikipedia for trolling using their real name. How is any of this doxing if they've publicly used their real name as their account name on Wikipedia and used their initials on RationalWiki? If you go down that road and define doxing as someone who posts public information then by the same definition Ze (aka EK) has doxed me by posting my name Oliver Smith all over the place.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: LOL. If you want to ban people who post on Kiwi Farms, then ban EK/Ze - she posts there and libelled me as a pedophile on an account. It would be pretty moronic to deny this is her since the account is an SPA dedicated to attacking me and contains the same &quot;feminazi&quot; name description. EK/Ze has been using Kiwi Farms to libel me for months.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} My account initials were never connected to any name until you decided to do that, obviously it was public knowledge after you made it public knowledge which is what you must have wanted. The Zionist Feminazi account on Kiwifarms is obviously not me, and in addition to calling you a pedophile it doxes LGM, posts personal information about Dysk, claims Bongolian is your brother, and calls various peeps here SJWs which tbf is fairly standard for all the posters on that thread. It also engages in severe transphobia against dysk which seems cringe and is ngl a lot like your own very transphobic comments about dysk you made [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&amp;target=Arthur+Kerensa&amp;timestamp=20190426123447 here] which is now suppressed. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :What personal info from me was revealed? DM may be appropriate. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account on Kiwifarms is Ze who calls herself a feminazi here. Ze and Dysk claim to be siblings in real life. The &quot;Zionist Feminist&quot; account on Kiwi Farms libeled me as a pedophile and it is ''only'' Ze/Dysk that repeats the libel on that account. Ze is also involved with Mikemikev drama and note the only other thread the Feminazi account on KF posted in is Mike's. There are plenty of other evidences that account is Ze.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: On Kiwi Farms there is talk that Ze and Dysk are the same person. On his Reddit account, Dysk posted several times he is in actual fact Ze. Does anyone know what all this is about, or is it an elaborate hoax? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::&lt;s&gt;I disagree with a ban of Smith,&lt;/s&gt; I personally don't have an opinion either way. I'd say that a stern admonishment along with a 2 way interaction ban from contacting Ze (and vice-versa) &lt;s&gt;should be sufficient in my opinion&lt;/s&gt; would be a good idea in the event that Smith is not banned. Additionally, a preemptive sysoprevoke may be in order, especially with Ze active on the site. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Kiko you are a moron, if you want to comment, make an effort to understand the situation. You want an interaction ban for someone who doxed several editors? What a joke. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Cultivating this many sockpuppets=== I don't know, man. Sockpuppetry is not explicitly against our rules. In fact having sock accounts has largely been condoned in the past. But I can't help but feel that this Oliver D. Smith business has taken it to a whole other level. It may be worth it to ban them simply because they're more trouble than they're worth. We don't need to embroil RationalWiki in a conflict spanning half the internet, just for the sake of a single user. The scale of this is... disturbing.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 18:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't see the point in any of these debates. Smith and Ze have been involved in an online slap-fight for over a year its on Kiwi Farms, discord, Reddit etc. It's impossible to have both these people on the same website. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I'd be inclined to support banning Smith just based on the scale of the drama they're embroiled in. All sorts of websites and sockpuppets and angry basement-dwellers plus at least one court case. It's not worth it to allow any chance of all that garbage spilling onto RW. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:07, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::If you look up the Wikipedia clusterfuck, EK (Ze) was indef b&amp; as a sockpuppet of Dysk (indef b&amp; as either a suspected troll or irredeemable PITA). I'd provide links, but I can't be arsed with accusations of doxxing. This whole thing is weird AF. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 20:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Ze was originally blocked due to a technical link between us, this was overturned (for Ze) by a Wikimedia steward, based on showing identity documents. Terms of the unblock followed the WP:CLEANSTART guidelines and the original account remains locked. However, despite this I personally remain banned from all Wikipedia projects, for trolling, and ban evasion. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) == Ban Abd == I can't remember exactly what this guy did but allegedly trolling and doxing were involved. I think he created a blog to attack various editors after that and the validity of what he wrote there is disputed. Like Smith he was unilaterally banned by a sysop on the basis of doxing without a coop vote, so in the interests of fairness we will confirm this ban too at the same time. Remember that the vote starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority to pass. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Disscussion === Seems like a wise idea, poking through history, it seems his community also was responsible for raiding RW or something? Anyway, that blog of his was in the abuse filter at some point if I'm not mistaken. Unlike Smith, I do think I can be confident in saying that blocking Abd is a good idea. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I mean in terms of damage Smith did more than Abd but yes both should be banned and this is more about procedure since both have been treated as banned for a long time and had hundreds of accounts blocked for ban evasion. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:26, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Abd Lomax is a threat to RationalWiki user's privacy and was rightly banned. He threatened to sue David Gerard and RationalWiki, he posted this on his website coldfusioncommunity in 2018 (if you want I can link to this). He later dropped this idea and filed a lawsuit against Wikipedia for banning him. His lawsuit against Wikipedia was dismissed with prejudice, but Abd claimed in this lawsuit that RationalWiki had 'defamed' him. On Abd's coldfusioncommunity website there are 50 negative articles dedicated to 'researching' RationalWiki editors such as Smith and their alleged sock-puppets. ::Lomax also doxed some RationalWiki staff on his website and some of that information is still live. Fuzzycatpotato has been doxed on Abd Lomax's website his real name and house address has been exposed. Ze is a close friend of Abd Lomax, indeed Lomax wrote on Reddit a few months ago he considers ZE like a &quot;daughter&quot;. Ze also has a discord &quot;The Treehouse&quot; and she invited Abd to join it, and made him a mod there. D/Ze have been in an online slapfight with Smith for a year spilling over multiple websites. We need someone totally uninvolved with this Abd or Smith drama to solve these matters. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 18:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I've only interacted with Abd once, but he did [http://coldfusioncommunity.net/anglo-pyramidologist/darryl-l-smith/skeptic-from-britain/comment-trolling/verifier/ post briefly about me on his site] (he did not doxx me) which brought it to my notice. He does seem to post a lot about RW stuff on his webpage. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Yeah well your like me anonymous so Abd can't get you but he tries to get hold of editors real life names, then he publishes it on his website. Does fuzzy know Abd has published his personal details? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I would vote Aye to a ban of Abd, but I've not been on here long enough. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ==Vote to only rehash coops for contentious or irregular old bans...if the users actually come back and contest or try to make edits== ===For=== #[[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # Smith last edited today, Abd alleged edited last a few weeks ago, both users have been constantly active for many years in spite of their bans, and both users are currently and always have contested their bans, but yes absolutely this is a good idea in general. {{User:Ze/?}} 13:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) #[[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|&lt;sup&gt;&quot;Life is short and (insert adjective)&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 15:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 15:53, 15 September 2020 (UTC) #Ban evasion is automatically cause for ban anyway.{{User:Summa Atheologica/sig}} 18:25, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Against=== ===Derp=== * I would settle for blocking my account on a voluntary basis i.e. post this user has decided to quit. Would I show up again? No. Because this time there was actually a Coop discussion rather than the irregular procedure of banning me via discord with no consensus or discussion. I returned to this wiki to add articles because there was no proper ban, rather, it was two problematic admins (Ze and Dysk) who banned me based on dubious allegations of doxing (I've rebutted these allegations above). There is also a repeated false allegation I libelled Ze or Dysk; yet last time I looked they're the people viciously smearing me on multiple websites as a child abuser and pedophile among many other outrageous claims. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 18:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) [[File:Tobias on kiwifarms 2019.png|thumb|500px|Smith calling the RationalWiki mods and sysops &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot;]] Smith you said after you wrote banned as [[User:Tobias]] that you would never return while calling the mods and sysops here &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot; and saying a highly transphobic homophobic, and ableist [[Kiwi Farms]] thread was true (See the image). Why are you back. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I agree, I think that Ze asks a fair question. That said I will add that I'm not in favour of anything other than a simple 2 way interaction ban on both Ze and Smith. Additionally, I think that Ze should be admonished for misuse of sysop. Everyone makes mistakes, but mistakes like that should never be repeated again. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::There's no transphobia, homophobia, and ableism in any of my comments on KF or anywhere else (not that I actually care). Furthermore it's pretty stupid to use that as a guilt by association fallacy when we both know you (Ze) are the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account I was responding to in that thread who was libelling me as a pedophile. To anyone who wants to actually check that full thread to get the context rather than believe Ze's quote-mines - notice my comment in the screenshot is only responding to &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; after I was provoked. And note how the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account identically matches Ze's posts and writing style, for example take the following comment they posted on Kiwi Farms: {{quotebox|May 18, 2019 Zionist Feminazi maybe the doxing has something to do with how her name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account and the harassment has something to do with how u went onto her talk page and discord to post threats and weird shit about the things u would do unless she redacted a wikipediocracy post to not mention ur insane brother who spends his time spamming reddit?}} To those familiar with Ze aka EK's writing style will know their usage of &quot;ur&quot;. Not only that but it matches identical claims they make here such as the dubious claims of doxing and how her account &quot;name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account&quot; (we've seen that same claim made above by Ze). Add this to the fact EK calls herself as a feminazi and elsewhere has claimed to support zionism plus that user only was posting in the RationalWiki and Mikemikev thread specifically to attack me -is rather conclusive its the same person. How many other people who support zionism and call themself a feminazi with the same writing style to Ze are there? I'm not sure how much more evidence other mods here would need. The fact they are denying this is them shows how highly deceptive they are. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I would vote Aye, but 1) I'm not an eligible voter and 2) I think this proposal is ill concieved and we'd be better off if we did what WMF wikis do and implement a procedure for appealing bans that does not involve sockpuppetery. The problem with this proposal is that it encourages people who are banned to evade their bans. Hence invalidating their meaning and purpose. Not good. So if I were an eligible voter, I'd vote Nay, we're better off with the status quo, which at least wouldn't create a precedent that any ban retrospectively deemed &quot;invalid&quot; may simply be disregarded without consequence. This isn't an Anarchy, or a battleground. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:50, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't even understand whey this is a vote. Abd is a certified doxer. I'm not about to give Smith the benefit of the doubt, particularly if there is confirmation that Smith is a doxer. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Either way I think that Smith has admitted to being a sockpuppet of [[User:Tobias]] who has already been indefinitely banned. So I fully agree with you, on the basis of that evidence alone, there appears to be no need for a vote. I don't see why we can't just summarily ban Smith aka Tobias aka Flight instead of bothering with a vote, which is just a waste of everyone's time. If Smith wishes to appeal the ban, and sees it as unjust, and intends to edit there are already proper channels for doing so e.g. on his talk page (if not revoked), by email (if not revoked), or by Discord. If both his talk page, and email access have been revoked, and he is banned from the Discord server, then tough shit. That's his problem, not our problem. If that's the case then we can just ban him, then Forget It, Move On. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: @ Kiko and Bongolian - my Tobias account was banned without the correct procedure. It was banned with no discussion or vote based on a dubious claim of doxing. I dispute the doxing claim because all I did is link to Ze (aka EK) Wikipedia account. That's all I ever did. I don't consider that doxing. Ze's dubious claim is it was doxing because she had not mentioned/linked her Wikipedia account on RationalWiki. Wikipedia accounts are public. Perhaps the reason Ze acted the way they did is because their Wikipedia account is perm banned for trolling and they're a notorious sockpuppeteer - there's dozens of accounts banned under their name. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Are we going to ignore you doxing Greenrd, Occam, and that you posted Ze's full name which isn't in the Wikipedia link? Get real mate, you can focus on one thing, and there are a dozen more offenses I can list. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2226685</id> <title>RationalWiki:Chicken coop</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2226685"/> <updated>2020-09-15T21:25:17Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Cultivating this many sockpuppets */ <hr /> <div>__NEWSECTIONLINK__{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}[[Category:RationalWiki]][[Category:RationalWiki moderation]][[Category:Turdblossoms]] [[Category:Shit articles]] {{hatnote|Not to be confused with the [[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation|moderator noticeboard]].}} {{talkpage |search=yes}} {{shortcut|RW:CC|RW:COOP}} &lt;!-- {{/status|}} --&gt; {{/status|4}} The '''chicken coop''' is for the avoidance, containment and resolution of cases of [[Headless Chicken Mode]] (HCM). Despite the name, this tends to be serious business. This page can be used for reporting cases of administrative abuse (abuse of [[RationalWiki:Sysop guide|sysop]] or [[RationalWiki:Moderators|moderator]] abilities such as blocking, page deletion, or user rights management), general abuse (such as [[troll]]ing, [[wandalism]], and personal attacks), and '''conflicts which cannot be solved through normal talk page discussion''' (such as long-standing edit wars or article content disputes). Please be specific and include links to any relevant discussions, page edits or logs. All editors are welcome to comment on the cases raised here, and to try to reach a consensus on any action to be taken. If no consensus can be reached, and the HCM seems to be escalating, moderators are expected to take some action. However, any serious or permanent solution, such as removal of rights or lengthy ban, requires a community vote here according to the guidelines laid out in our [[RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Voting|Community Standards]]. '''Please''' try to resolve conflicts directly through discussion on other editor's talk pages '''before''' reporting them. It's better to just talk to someone rather than try to drag their name through the mud. If the issue is not conflict resolution, but concerns RationalWiki policies, suggested changes to how things work around here, or similar matters of principle, please post '''[[RationalWiki talk:Community Standards|on the Community Standards talk page]] instead. When presenting a case here, be sure to include ''whom'' you are accusing, what exactly you are accusing them ''of'', some hard ''evidence'', and a brief ''explanation''. Since the sole purpose of the Coop is to resolve these disputes, don't post unrelated or more generalized complaints here — if you do, your posts will be moved off the page. Any vote started within 48 hours of filing will be deleted and you will be blocked. Use {{tl|CoopNotice}} to inform the user in question, so that they have a chance to discuss their actions here. As a final note, if you think this page is a good tactic to apply in gaming the mob into doing your bidding, you may be shocked to see your post archived ''quite'' swiftly. == Ban Smith == I propose to formally ban the user known as &quot;Smith&quot; for the offenses of: # Doxing me and at least 3 other members of this site on various talk pages here and creating at least 2 libellous attack pages on editors here. # Doxing members of this site on [[Kiwi Farms]] and Reddit and elsewhere. # Attempting to bulk delete pages here in [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?oldid=2040594 connection with] a lawsuit and causing disruption in the process along with arguably shifting the legal responsibility for those pages onto the site users who voted to keep them. # Deliberately introducing defamatory material to multiple pages as part of a [http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2019/3393.html dispute] with some crank. # Using this site to carry out a flame war with [[Mikemikev]] and [[Abd]] for several years including impersonating both on several occasions. # Vandalism and trolling with &quot;throwaway&quot; accounts to disrupt site processes on numerous occasions. I'm not going to specify any evidence because the most relevant evidence is suppressed and everyone with suppression access is well aware of the situation already. Just remember voting starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Discussion === :so we are being asked to vote to ban a user few of us actually know who they are with no evidence provided? another coop another farce. [[User:AMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] ([[User talk:AMassiveGay|talk]]) 12:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yes exactly that. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::It's honestly difficult to get the details clear, since a lot was suppressed. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus That said, this discussion remains] as well as the AfD Ze has linked. It appears to be tied to the [[Mikemikev]]/[[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]] drama, the former of whom got banned from RW for... what should frankly be obvious reasons (just read his page lol). I'll be frank, I won't vote in the Smith stuff since I don't know this particular drama shitstorm surrounding those two, but as far as I'm concerned, there is not exactly a great loss to the wiki should they remain gone? -Also just to quickly clarify, this coop isn't about nobs lol-. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Not banning him would kinda send the message that doxing is ok here so my vote is settled already. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Smith's only real activity here was and is meant to further internet grudges and escalate drama. It's caused problems on more than one occasion. Not an editor we need to keep around. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 13:21, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Funny comment considering I've added the most articles of any editor to RationalWiki. Most the people criticising me instead don't add constructive content but use this wiki as a chat-room such as Saloon bar (a place I've virtually never visited).[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: I've never doxed, impersonated or defamed anyone, notice as well no evidence is ever presented for these wild allegations. Ze has engaged in a gaslighting campaign against me for some time and nothing they post about me is accurate. They link to the preliminary judgement ''Kirkegaard v Smith [2019] EWHC 3393 (QB)'' but that has nothing to do with RationalWiki. I was never sued for comments I made on this wiki so claims I have posted libel on this wiki are blatantly false. And I won the lawsuit - Kirkegaard discontinued in May and has to pay my legal fees as the losing party. The preliminary judgement concerned fact versus opinion and ruled my comments were &quot;expressions of opinion and are defamatory&quot; ''however'' the judge pointed out &quot;For the avoidance of doubt, I am not deciding the question of serious harm under s 1 of the Defamation Act 2013.&quot; (the preliminary was to determine whether my comments were fact or opinion not the question of serious harm and I won it on the basis I was arguing my comments were opinions while Kirkegaard incorrectly said they were facts and he was criticised by the judge for taking my comments out of context). Had it gone to full trial or summary judgement (I filed for) a judge would have decided if my comments were either honest opinion (my legal defence) or defamation based on the serious harm question. Kirkegaard discontinued the lawsuit shortly before the judge was going to decide this knowing he/she would almost certainly have ruled my opinions were honestly held rather than defamation. So did I defame him? No. It' s highly misleading to say I did since my comments were upheld as honest opinion which provides a legal defence to defamation (other than truth) and he discontinued the lawsuit knowing the judge in the summary judgement would have ruled my comments did not cause him serious harm. Of course, I don't expect Ze (formerly EK) or Dysk (aka D) to acknowledge this and both of them have spent the past year character assassinating me on Reddit and various wiki-related forums over this lawsuit. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} :You doxed me [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=2073359&amp;oldid=2073357&amp;unhide=1 here] and then a bunch of other times that I could find if you really want and then doxed other editors later and when your comments were suppressed you went to do the same thing on other sites including [[Kiwi Farms]] whose users still follow me around to harrass even now because of it. {{User:Ze/?}} 14:02, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Upon further consideration, I changed my mind. I hadn't quite seen the KiwiFarms shit. Let me be clear here, anyone who is on that site and thinks that posting anything to do with a member here is an A-Okay thing can honestly and directly fuck off. Smith needs as far as I am concerned no more place here. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: I've never doxed Ze - they formerly used their name initials (EK) on RationalWiki which is public knowledge. They renamed their account. They were banned from Wikipedia for trolling using their real name. How is any of this doxing if they've publicly used their real name as their account name on Wikipedia and used their initials on RationalWiki? If you go down that road and define doxing as someone who posts public information then by the same definition Ze (aka EK) has doxed me by posting my name Oliver Smith all over the place.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: LOL. If you want to ban people who post on Kiwi Farms, then ban EK/Ze - she posts there and libelled me as a pedophile on an account. It would be pretty moronic to deny this is her since the account is an SPA dedicated to attacking me and contains the same &quot;feminazi&quot; name description. EK/Ze has been using Kiwi Farms to libel me for months.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} My account initials were never connected to any name until you decided to do that, obviously it was public knowledge after you made it public knowledge which is what you must have wanted. The Zionist Feminazi account on Kiwifarms is obviously not me, and in addition to calling you a pedophile it doxes LGM, posts personal information about Dysk, claims Bongolian is your brother, and calls various peeps here SJWs which tbf is fairly standard for all the posters on that thread. It also engages in severe transphobia against dysk which seems cringe and is ngl a lot like your own very transphobic comments about dysk you made [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&amp;target=Arthur+Kerensa&amp;timestamp=20190426123447 here] which is now suppressed. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :What personal info from me was revealed? DM may be appropriate. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account on Kiwifarms is Ze who calls herself a feminazi here. Ze and Dysk claim to be siblings in real life. The &quot;Zionist Feminist&quot; account on Kiwi Farms libeled me as a pedophile and it is ''only'' Ze/Dysk that repeats the libel on that account. Ze is also involved with Mikemikev drama and note the only other thread the Feminazi account on KF posted in is Mike's. There are plenty of other evidences that account is Ze.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: On Kiwi Farms there is talk that Ze and Dysk are the same person. On his Reddit account, Dysk posted several times he is in actual fact Ze. Does anyone know what all this is about, or is it an elaborate hoax? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::&lt;s&gt;I disagree with a ban of Smith,&lt;/s&gt; I personally don't have an opinion either way. I'd say that a stern admonishment along with a 2 way interaction ban from contacting Ze (and vice-versa) &lt;s&gt;should be sufficient in my opinion&lt;/s&gt; would be a good idea in the event that Smith is not banned. Additionally, a preemptive sysoprevoke may be in order, especially with Ze active on the site. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Cultivating this many sockpuppets=== I don't know, man. Sockpuppetry is not explicitly against our rules. In fact having sock accounts has largely been condoned in the past. But I can't help but feel that this Oliver D. Smith business has taken it to a whole other level. It may be worth it to ban them simply because they're more trouble than they're worth. We don't need to embroil RationalWiki in a conflict spanning half the internet, just for the sake of a single user. The scale of this is... disturbing.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 18:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't see the point in any of these debates. Smith and Ze have been involved in an online slap-fight for over a year its on Kiwi Farms, discord, Reddit etc. It's impossible to have both these people on the same website. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I'd be inclined to support banning Smith just based on the scale of the drama they're embroiled in. All sorts of websites and sockpuppets and angry basement-dwellers plus at least one court case. It's not worth it to allow any chance of all that garbage spilling onto RW. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:07, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::If you look up the Wikipedia clusterfuck, EK (Ze) was indef b&amp; as a sockpuppet of Dysk (indef b&amp; as either a suspected troll or irredeemable PITA). I'd provide links, but I can't be arsed with accusations of doxxing. This whole thing is weird AF. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 20:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Ze was originally blocked due to a technical link between us, this was overturned (for Ze) by a Wikimedia steward, based on showing identity documents. Terms of the unblock followed the WP:CLEANSTART guidelines and the original account remains locked. However, despite this I personally remain banned from all Wikipedia projects, for trolling, and ban evasion. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) == Ban Abd == I can't remember exactly what this guy did but allegedly trolling and doxing were involved. I think he created a blog to attack various editors after that and the validity of what he wrote there is disputed. Like Smith he was unilaterally banned by a sysop on the basis of doxing without a coop vote, so in the interests of fairness we will confirm this ban too at the same time. Remember that the vote starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority to pass. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Disscussion === Seems like a wise idea, poking through history, it seems his community also was responsible for raiding RW or something? Anyway, that blog of his was in the abuse filter at some point if I'm not mistaken. Unlike Smith, I do think I can be confident in saying that blocking Abd is a good idea. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I mean in terms of damage Smith did more than Abd but yes both should be banned and this is more about procedure since both have been treated as banned for a long time and had hundreds of accounts blocked for ban evasion. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:26, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Abd Lomax is a threat to RationalWiki user's privacy and was rightly banned. He threatened to sue David Gerard and RationalWiki, he posted this on his website coldfusioncommunity in 2018 (if you want I can link to this). He later dropped this idea and filed a lawsuit against Wikipedia for banning him. His lawsuit against Wikipedia was dismissed with prejudice, but Abd claimed in this lawsuit that RationalWiki had 'defamed' him. On Abd's coldfusioncommunity website there are 50 negative articles dedicated to 'researching' RationalWiki editors such as Smith and their alleged sock-puppets. ::Lomax also doxed some RationalWiki staff on his website and some of that information is still live. Fuzzycatpotato has been doxed on Abd Lomax's website his real name and house address has been exposed. Ze is a close friend of Abd Lomax, indeed Lomax wrote on Reddit a few months ago he considers ZE like a &quot;daughter&quot;. Ze also has a discord &quot;The Treehouse&quot; and she invited Abd to join it, and made him a mod there. D/Ze have been in an online slapfight with Smith for a year spilling over multiple websites. We need someone totally uninvolved with this Abd or Smith drama to solve these matters. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 18:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I've only interacted with Abd once, but he did [http://coldfusioncommunity.net/anglo-pyramidologist/darryl-l-smith/skeptic-from-britain/comment-trolling/verifier/ post briefly about me on his site] (he did not doxx me) which brought it to my notice. He does seem to post a lot about RW stuff on his webpage. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Yeah well your like me anonymous so Abd can't get you but he tries to get hold of editors real life names, then he publishes it on his website. Does fuzzy know Abd has published his personal details? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I would vote Aye to a ban of Abd, but I've not been on here long enough. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ==Vote to only rehash coops for contentious or irregular old bans...if the users actually come back and contest or try to make edits== ===For=== #[[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # Smith last edited today, Abd alleged edited last a few weeks ago, both users have been constantly active for many years in spite of their bans, and both users are currently and always have contested their bans, but yes absolutely this is a good idea in general. {{User:Ze/?}} 13:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) #[[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|&lt;sup&gt;&quot;Life is short and (insert adjective)&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 15:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 15:53, 15 September 2020 (UTC) #Ban evasion is automatically cause for ban anyway.{{User:Summa Atheologica/sig}} 18:25, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Against=== ===Derp=== * I would settle for blocking my account on a voluntary basis i.e. post this user has decided to quit. Would I show up again? No. Because this time there was actually a Coop discussion rather than the irregular procedure of banning me via discord with no consensus or discussion. I returned to this wiki to add articles because there was no proper ban, rather, it was two problematic admins (Ze and Dysk) who banned me based on dubious allegations of doxing (I've rebutted these allegations above). There is also a repeated false allegation I libelled Ze or Dysk; yet last time I looked they're the people viciously smearing me on multiple websites as a child abuser and pedophile among many other outrageous claims. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 18:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) [[File:Tobias on kiwifarms 2019.png|thumb|500px|Smith calling the RationalWiki mods and sysops &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot;]] Smith you said after you wrote banned as [[User:Tobias]] that you would never return while calling the mods and sysops here &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot; and saying a highly transphobic homophobic, and ableist [[Kiwi Farms]] thread was true (See the image). Why are you back. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I agree, I think that Ze asks a fair question. That said I will add that I'm not in favour of anything other than a simple 2 way interaction ban on both Ze and Smith. Additionally, I think that Ze should be admonished for misuse of sysop. Everyone makes mistakes, but mistakes like that should never be repeated again. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::There's no transphobia, homophobia, and ableism in any of my comments on KF or anywhere else (not that I actually care). Furthermore it's pretty stupid to use that as a guilt by association fallacy when we both know you (Ze) are the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account I was responding to in that thread who was libelling me as a pedophile. To anyone who wants to actually check that full thread to get the context rather than believe Ze's quote-mines - notice my comment in the screenshot is only responding to &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; after I was provoked. And note how the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account identically matches Ze's posts and writing style, for example take the following comment they posted on Kiwi Farms: {{quotebox|May 18, 2019 Zionist Feminazi maybe the doxing has something to do with how her name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account and the harassment has something to do with how u went onto her talk page and discord to post threats and weird shit about the things u would do unless she redacted a wikipediocracy post to not mention ur insane brother who spends his time spamming reddit?}} To those familiar with Ze aka EK's writing style will know their usage of &quot;ur&quot;. Not only that but it matches identical claims they make here such as the dubious claims of doxing and how her account &quot;name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account&quot; (we've seen that same claim made above by Ze). Add this to the fact EK calls herself as a feminazi and elsewhere has claimed to support zionism plus that user only was posting in the RationalWiki and Mikemikev thread specifically to attack me -is rather conclusive its the same person. How many other people who support zionism and call themself a feminazi with the same writing style to Ze are there? I'm not sure how much more evidence other mods here would need. The fact they are denying this is them shows how highly deceptive they are. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I would vote Aye, but 1) I'm not an eligible voter and 2) I think this proposal is ill concieved and we'd be better off if we did what WMF wikis do and implement a procedure for appealing bans that does not involve sockpuppetery. The problem with this proposal is that it encourages people who are banned to evade their bans. Hence invalidating their meaning and purpose. Not good. So if I were an eligible voter, I'd vote Nay, we're better off with the status quo, which at least wouldn't create a precedent that any ban retrospectively deemed &quot;invalid&quot; may simply be disregarded without consequence. This isn't an Anarchy, or a battleground. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:50, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't even understand whey this is a vote. Abd is a certified doxer. I'm not about to give Smith the benefit of the doubt, particularly if there is confirmation that Smith is a doxer. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Either way I think that Smith has admitted to being a sockpuppet of [[User:Tobias]] who has already been indefinitely banned. So I fully agree with you, on the basis of that evidence alone, there appears to be no need for a vote. I don't see why we can't just summarily ban Smith aka Tobias aka Flight instead of bothering with a vote, which is just a waste of everyone's time. If Smith wishes to appeal the ban, and sees it as unjust, and intends to edit there are already proper channels for doing so e.g. on his talk page (if not revoked), by email (if not revoked), or by Discord. If both his talk page, and email access have been revoked, and he is banned from the Discord server, then tough shit. That's his problem, not our problem. If that's the case then we can just ban him, then Forget It, Move On. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: @ Kiko and Bongolian - my Tobias account was banned without the correct procedure. It was banned with no discussion or vote based on a dubious claim of doxing. I dispute the doxing claim because all I did is link to Ze (aka EK) Wikipedia account. That's all I ever did. I don't consider that doxing. Ze's dubious claim is it was doxing because she had not mentioned/linked her Wikipedia account on RationalWiki. Wikipedia accounts are public. Perhaps the reason Ze acted the way they did is because their Wikipedia account is perm banned for trolling and they're a notorious sockpuppeteer - there's dozens of accounts banned under their name. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Are we going to ignore you doxing Greenrd, Occam, and that you posted Ze's full name which isn't in the Wikipedia link? Get real mate, you can focus on one thing, and there are a dozen more offenses I can list. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2226683</id> <title>RationalWiki:Chicken coop</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2226683"/> <updated>2020-09-15T21:18:35Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Derp */ <hr /> <div>__NEWSECTIONLINK__{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}[[Category:RationalWiki]][[Category:RationalWiki moderation]][[Category:Turdblossoms]] [[Category:Shit articles]] {{hatnote|Not to be confused with the [[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation|moderator noticeboard]].}} {{talkpage |search=yes}} {{shortcut|RW:CC|RW:COOP}} &lt;!-- {{/status|}} --&gt; {{/status|4}} The '''chicken coop''' is for the avoidance, containment and resolution of cases of [[Headless Chicken Mode]] (HCM). Despite the name, this tends to be serious business. This page can be used for reporting cases of administrative abuse (abuse of [[RationalWiki:Sysop guide|sysop]] or [[RationalWiki:Moderators|moderator]] abilities such as blocking, page deletion, or user rights management), general abuse (such as [[troll]]ing, [[wandalism]], and personal attacks), and '''conflicts which cannot be solved through normal talk page discussion''' (such as long-standing edit wars or article content disputes). Please be specific and include links to any relevant discussions, page edits or logs. All editors are welcome to comment on the cases raised here, and to try to reach a consensus on any action to be taken. If no consensus can be reached, and the HCM seems to be escalating, moderators are expected to take some action. However, any serious or permanent solution, such as removal of rights or lengthy ban, requires a community vote here according to the guidelines laid out in our [[RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Voting|Community Standards]]. '''Please''' try to resolve conflicts directly through discussion on other editor's talk pages '''before''' reporting them. It's better to just talk to someone rather than try to drag their name through the mud. If the issue is not conflict resolution, but concerns RationalWiki policies, suggested changes to how things work around here, or similar matters of principle, please post '''[[RationalWiki talk:Community Standards|on the Community Standards talk page]] instead. When presenting a case here, be sure to include ''whom'' you are accusing, what exactly you are accusing them ''of'', some hard ''evidence'', and a brief ''explanation''. Since the sole purpose of the Coop is to resolve these disputes, don't post unrelated or more generalized complaints here — if you do, your posts will be moved off the page. Any vote started within 48 hours of filing will be deleted and you will be blocked. Use {{tl|CoopNotice}} to inform the user in question, so that they have a chance to discuss their actions here. As a final note, if you think this page is a good tactic to apply in gaming the mob into doing your bidding, you may be shocked to see your post archived ''quite'' swiftly. == Ban Smith == I propose to formally ban the user known as &quot;Smith&quot; for the offenses of: # Doxing me and at least 3 other members of this site on various talk pages here and creating at least 2 libellous attack pages on editors here. # Doxing members of this site on [[Kiwi Farms]] and Reddit and elsewhere. # Attempting to bulk delete pages here in [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?oldid=2040594 connection with] a lawsuit and causing disruption in the process along with arguably shifting the legal responsibility for those pages onto the site users who voted to keep them. # Deliberately introducing defamatory material to multiple pages as part of a [http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2019/3393.html dispute] with some crank. # Using this site to carry out a flame war with [[Mikemikev]] and [[Abd]] for several years including impersonating both on several occasions. # Vandalism and trolling with &quot;throwaway&quot; accounts to disrupt site processes on numerous occasions. I'm not going to specify any evidence because the most relevant evidence is suppressed and everyone with suppression access is well aware of the situation already. Just remember voting starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Discussion === :so we are being asked to vote to ban a user few of us actually know who they are with no evidence provided? another coop another farce. [[User:AMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] ([[User talk:AMassiveGay|talk]]) 12:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yes exactly that. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::It's honestly difficult to get the details clear, since a lot was suppressed. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus That said, this discussion remains] as well as the AfD Ze has linked. It appears to be tied to the [[Mikemikev]]/[[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]] drama, the former of whom got banned from RW for... what should frankly be obvious reasons (just read his page lol). I'll be frank, I won't vote in the Smith stuff since I don't know this particular drama shitstorm surrounding those two, but as far as I'm concerned, there is not exactly a great loss to the wiki should they remain gone? -Also just to quickly clarify, this coop isn't about nobs lol-. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::Not banning him would kinda send the message that doxing is ok here so my vote is settled already. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Smith's only real activity here was and is meant to further internet grudges and escalate drama. It's caused problems on more than one occasion. Not an editor we need to keep around. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 13:21, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: Funny comment considering I've added the most articles of any editor to RationalWiki. Most the people criticising me instead don't add constructive content but use this wiki as a chat-room such as Saloon bar (a place I've virtually never visited).[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::: I've never doxed, impersonated or defamed anyone, notice as well no evidence is ever presented for these wild allegations. Ze has engaged in a gaslighting campaign against me for some time and nothing they post about me is accurate. They link to the preliminary judgement ''Kirkegaard v Smith [2019] EWHC 3393 (QB)'' but that has nothing to do with RationalWiki. I was never sued for comments I made on this wiki so claims I have posted libel on this wiki are blatantly false. And I won the lawsuit - Kirkegaard discontinued in May and has to pay my legal fees as the losing party. The preliminary judgement concerned fact versus opinion and ruled my comments were &quot;expressions of opinion and are defamatory&quot; ''however'' the judge pointed out &quot;For the avoidance of doubt, I am not deciding the question of serious harm under s 1 of the Defamation Act 2013.&quot; (the preliminary was to determine whether my comments were fact or opinion not the question of serious harm and I won it on the basis I was arguing my comments were opinions while Kirkegaard incorrectly said they were facts and he was criticised by the judge for taking my comments out of context). Had it gone to full trial or summary judgement (I filed for) a judge would have decided if my comments were either honest opinion (my legal defence) or defamation based on the serious harm question. Kirkegaard discontinued the lawsuit shortly before the judge was going to decide this knowing he/she would almost certainly have ruled my opinions were honestly held rather than defamation. So did I defame him? No. It' s highly misleading to say I did since my comments were upheld as honest opinion which provides a legal defence to defamation (other than truth) and he discontinued the lawsuit knowing the judge in the summary judgement would have ruled my comments did not cause him serious harm. Of course, I don't expect Ze (formerly EK) or Dysk (aka D) to acknowledge this and both of them have spent the past year character assassinating me on Reddit and various wiki-related forums over this lawsuit. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} :You doxed me [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ze&amp;diff=2073359&amp;oldid=2073357&amp;unhide=1 here] and then a bunch of other times that I could find if you really want and then doxed other editors later and when your comments were suppressed you went to do the same thing on other sites including [[Kiwi Farms]] whose users still follow me around to harrass even now because of it. {{User:Ze/?}} 14:02, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Upon further consideration, I changed my mind. I hadn't quite seen the KiwiFarms shit. Let me be clear here, anyone who is on that site and thinks that posting anything to do with a member here is an A-Okay thing can honestly and directly fuck off. Smith needs as far as I am concerned no more place here. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: I've never doxed Ze - they formerly used their name initials (EK) on RationalWiki which is public knowledge. They renamed their account. They were banned from Wikipedia for trolling using their real name. How is any of this doxing if they've publicly used their real name as their account name on Wikipedia and used their initials on RationalWiki? If you go down that road and define doxing as someone who posts public information then by the same definition Ze (aka EK) has doxed me by posting my name Oliver Smith all over the place.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: LOL. If you want to ban people who post on Kiwi Farms, then ban EK/Ze - she posts there and libelled me as a pedophile on an account. It would be pretty moronic to deny this is her since the account is an SPA dedicated to attacking me and contains the same &quot;feminazi&quot; name description. EK/Ze has been using Kiwi Farms to libel me for months.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 17:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} My account initials were never connected to any name until you decided to do that, obviously it was public knowledge after you made it public knowledge which is what you must have wanted. The Zionist Feminazi account on Kiwifarms is obviously not me, and in addition to calling you a pedophile it doxes LGM, posts personal information about Dysk, claims Bongolian is your brother, and calls various peeps here SJWs which tbf is fairly standard for all the posters on that thread. It also engages in severe transphobia against dysk which seems cringe and is ngl a lot like your own very transphobic comments about dysk you made [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&amp;target=Arthur+Kerensa&amp;timestamp=20190426123447 here] which is now suppressed. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :What personal info from me was revealed? DM may be appropriate. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :: The &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account on Kiwifarms is Ze who calls herself a feminazi here. Ze and Dysk claim to be siblings in real life. The &quot;Zionist Feminist&quot; account on Kiwi Farms libeled me as a pedophile and it is ''only'' Ze/Dysk that repeats the libel on that account. Ze is also involved with Mikemikev drama and note the only other thread the Feminazi account on KF posted in is Mike's. There are plenty of other evidences that account is Ze.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: On Kiwi Farms there is talk that Ze and Dysk are the same person. On his Reddit account, Dysk posted several times he is in actual fact Ze. Does anyone know what all this is about, or is it an elaborate hoax? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::&lt;s&gt;I disagree with a ban of Smith,&lt;/s&gt; I personally don't have an opinion either way. I'd say that a stern admonishment along with a 2 way interaction ban from contacting Ze (and vice-versa) &lt;s&gt;should be sufficient in my opinion&lt;/s&gt; would be a good idea in the event that Smith is not banned. Additionally, a preemptive sysoprevoke may be in order, especially with Ze active on the site. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Cultivating this many sockpuppets=== I don't know, man. Sockpuppetry is not explicitly against our rules. In fact having sock accounts has largely been condoned in the past. But I can't help but feel that this Oliver D. Smith business has taken it to a whole other level. It may be worth it to ban them simply because they're more trouble than they're worth. We don't need to embroil RationalWiki in a conflict spanning half the internet, just for the sake of a single user. The scale of this is... disturbing.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 18:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC) : I don't see the point in any of these debates. Smith and Ze have been involved in an online slap-fight for over a year its on Kiwi Farms, discord, Reddit etc. It's impossible to have both these people on the same website. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::I'd be inclined to support banning Smith just based on the scale of the drama they're embroiled in. All sorts of websites and sockpuppets and angry basement-dwellers plus at least one court case. It's not worth it to allow any chance of all that garbage spilling onto RW. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:07, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::If you look up the Wikipedia clusterfuck, EK (Ze) was indef b&amp; as a sockpuppet of Dysk (indef b&amp; as either a suspected troll or irredeemable PITA). I'd provide links, but I can't be arsed with accusations of doxxing. This whole thing is weird AF. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 20:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) == Ban Abd == I can't remember exactly what this guy did but allegedly trolling and doxing were involved. I think he created a blog to attack various editors after that and the validity of what he wrote there is disputed. Like Smith he was unilaterally banned by a sysop on the basis of doxing without a coop vote, so in the interests of fairness we will confirm this ban too at the same time. Remember that the vote starts in 48 hours and requires a 2/3 majority to pass. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC) === Disscussion === Seems like a wise idea, poking through history, it seems his community also was responsible for raiding RW or something? Anyway, that blog of his was in the abuse filter at some point if I'm not mistaken. Unlike Smith, I do think I can be confident in saying that blocking Abd is a good idea. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I mean in terms of damage Smith did more than Abd but yes both should be banned and this is more about procedure since both have been treated as banned for a long time and had hundreds of accounts blocked for ban evasion. {{User:Ze/?}} 12:26, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Abd Lomax is a threat to RationalWiki user's privacy and was rightly banned. He threatened to sue David Gerard and RationalWiki, he posted this on his website coldfusioncommunity in 2018 (if you want I can link to this). He later dropped this idea and filed a lawsuit against Wikipedia for banning him. His lawsuit against Wikipedia was dismissed with prejudice, but Abd claimed in this lawsuit that RationalWiki had 'defamed' him. On Abd's coldfusioncommunity website there are 50 negative articles dedicated to 'researching' RationalWiki editors such as Smith and their alleged sock-puppets. ::Lomax also doxed some RationalWiki staff on his website and some of that information is still live. Fuzzycatpotato has been doxed on Abd Lomax's website his real name and house address has been exposed. Ze is a close friend of Abd Lomax, indeed Lomax wrote on Reddit a few months ago he considers ZE like a &quot;daughter&quot;. Ze also has a discord &quot;The Treehouse&quot; and she invited Abd to join it, and made him a mod there. D/Ze have been in an online slapfight with Smith for a year spilling over multiple websites. We need someone totally uninvolved with this Abd or Smith drama to solve these matters. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 18:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I've only interacted with Abd once, but he did [http://coldfusioncommunity.net/anglo-pyramidologist/darryl-l-smith/skeptic-from-britain/comment-trolling/verifier/ post briefly about me on his site] (he did not doxx me) which brought it to my notice. He does seem to post a lot about RW stuff on his webpage. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Yeah well your like me anonymous so Abd can't get you but he tries to get hold of editors real life names, then he publishes it on his website. Does fuzzy know Abd has published his personal details? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 19:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I would vote Aye to a ban of Abd, but I've not been on here long enough. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ==Vote to only rehash coops for contentious or irregular old bans...if the users actually come back and contest or try to make edits== ===For=== #[[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # Smith last edited today, Abd alleged edited last a few weeks ago, both users have been constantly active for many years in spite of their bans, and both users are currently and always have contested their bans, but yes absolutely this is a good idea in general. {{User:Ze/?}} 13:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC) #[[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|&lt;sup&gt;&quot;Life is short and (insert adjective)&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 15:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC) # --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 15:53, 15 September 2020 (UTC) #Ban evasion is automatically cause for ban anyway.{{User:Summa Atheologica/sig}} 18:25, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ===Against=== ===Derp=== * I would settle for blocking my account on a voluntary basis i.e. post this user has decided to quit. Would I show up again? No. Because this time there was actually a Coop discussion rather than the irregular procedure of banning me via discord with no consensus or discussion. I returned to this wiki to add articles because there was no proper ban, rather, it was two problematic admins (Ze and Dysk) who banned me based on dubious allegations of doxing (I've rebutted these allegations above). There is also a repeated false allegation I libelled Ze or Dysk; yet last time I looked they're the people viciously smearing me on multiple websites as a child abuser and pedophile among many other outrageous claims. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 18:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC) [[File:Tobias on kiwifarms 2019.png|thumb|500px|Smith calling the RationalWiki mods and sysops &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot;]] Smith you said after you wrote banned as [[User:Tobias]] that you would never return while calling the mods and sysops here &quot;mentally ill SJWs&quot; and saying a highly transphobic homophobic, and ableist [[Kiwi Farms]] thread was true (See the image). Why are you back. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I agree, I think that Ze asks a fair question. That said I will add that I'm not in favour of anything other than a simple 2 way interaction ban on both Ze and Smith. Additionally, I think that Ze should be admonished for misuse of sysop. Everyone makes mistakes, but mistakes like that should never be repeated again. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::There's no transphobia, homophobia, and ableism in any of my comments on KF or anywhere else (not that I actually care). Furthermore it's pretty stupid to use that as a guilt by association fallacy when we both know you (Ze) are the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account I was responding to in that thread who was libelling me as a pedophile. To anyone who wants to actually check that full thread to get the context rather than believe Ze's quote-mines - notice my comment in the screenshot is only responding to &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; after I was provoked. And note how the &quot;Zionist Feminazi&quot; account identically matches Ze's posts and writing style, for example take the following comment they posted on Kiwi Farms: {{quotebox|May 18, 2019 Zionist Feminazi maybe the doxing has something to do with how her name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account and the harassment has something to do with how u went onto her talk page and discord to post threats and weird shit about the things u would do unless she redacted a wikipediocracy post to not mention ur insane brother who spends his time spamming reddit?}} To those familiar with Ze aka EK's writing style will know their usage of &quot;ur&quot;. Not only that but it matches identical claims they make here such as the dubious claims of doxing and how her account &quot;name wasnt linked to her rationalwiki account&quot; (we've seen that same claim made above by Ze). Add this to the fact EK calls herself as a feminazi and elsewhere has claimed to support zionism plus that user only was posting in the RationalWiki and Mikemikev thread specifically to attack me -is rather conclusive its the same person. How many other people who support zionism and call themself a feminazi with the same writing style to Ze are there? I'm not sure how much more evidence other mods here would need. The fact they are denying this is them shows how highly deceptive they are. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 19:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I would vote Aye, but 1) I'm not an eligible voter and 2) I think this proposal is ill concieved and we'd be better off if we did what WMF wikis do and implement a procedure for appealing bans that does not involve sockpuppetery. The problem with this proposal is that it encourages people who are banned to evade their bans. Hence invalidating their meaning and purpose. Not good. So if I were an eligible voter, I'd vote Nay, we're better off with the status quo, which at least wouldn't create a precedent that any ban retrospectively deemed &quot;invalid&quot; may simply be disregarded without consequence. This isn't an Anarchy, or a battleground. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 19:50, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't even understand whey this is a vote. Abd is a certified doxer. I'm not about to give Smith the benefit of the doubt, particularly if there is confirmation that Smith is a doxer. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::Either way I think that Smith has admitted to being a sockpuppet of [[User:Tobias]] who has already been indefinitely banned. So I fully agree with you, on the basis of that evidence alone, there appears to be no need for a vote. I don't see why we can't just summarily ban Smith aka Tobias aka Flight instead of bothering with a vote, which is just a waste of everyone's time. If Smith wishes to appeal the ban, and sees it as unjust, and intends to edit there are already proper channels for doing so e.g. on his talk page (if not revoked), by email (if not revoked), or by Discord. If both his talk page, and email access have been revoked, and he is banned from the Discord server, then tough shit. That's his problem, not our problem. If that's the case then we can just ban him, then Forget It, Move On. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::: @ Kiko and Bongolian - my Tobias account was banned without the correct procedure. It was banned with no discussion or vote based on a dubious claim of doxing. I dispute the doxing claim because all I did is link to Ze (aka EK) Wikipedia account. That's all I ever did. I don't consider that doxing. Ze's dubious claim is it was doxing because she had not mentioned/linked her Wikipedia account on RationalWiki. Wikipedia accounts are public. Perhaps the reason Ze acted the way they did is because their Wikipedia account is perm banned for trolling and they're a notorious sockpuppeteer - there's dozens of accounts banned under their name. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 21:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Are we going to ignore you doxing Greenrd, Occam, and that you posted Ze's full name which isn't in the Wikipedia link? Get real mate, you can focus on one thing, and there are a dozen more offenses I can list. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&diff=2226423</id> <title>RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&diff=2226423"/> <updated>2020-09-15T06:41:51Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Should we hold a full vote to confirm the ban? */ <hr /> <div>{{mod talk header}} &lt;center&gt;[[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive_List|Archives for this page]]&lt;/center&gt; {{#tag:inputbox| bgcolor=transparent type=fulltext prefix=RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation break=yes width={{{width|60}}} searchbuttonlabel={{{label|Search the archives}}} }} [[File:Moderator.jpg|thumb]] __TOC__ &lt;!-- write below this line --&gt; == Requesting input on CS interpretation == Okay, I'll just keep this short. As a part of [[RW:BLOCK]], we forbid bigoted material being posted on the wiki, which warrants a block. To this end, I've attempted earlier today to clean up three Saloon threads because two BONs inserted blockable crap as threads (a Comicsgate website and a [[Ludwig von Mises Institute]] article that goes &quot;racism doesn't exist, but hating on men does&quot;) and the third one being a Steven Crowder video on how Trump deserves a Noble Peace Prize. I'm not here to ask about that last one, given it was duplicitous anyway. Rather, Hastur appears to have restored the other two, saying &quot;if I don't like it, just ignore it&quot;. What I am in effect asking here is that in the event that we block someone for posting bigoted crap, is it okay to then also ''remove'' the bigoted crap. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 19:57, 10 September 2020 (UTC) :I would argue that this particular BoN's posts don't meet the standard of what is block/removal worthy. If we can't handle a link to the Ludwig von Mises institute, we have a problem--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 20:20, 10 September 2020 (UTC) ::Agreed. {{User:GR/sig}} 20:21, 10 September 2020 (UTC) :::I am content with just placing the troll posts in a nice &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{collapse}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; block. —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:15, 10 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I disagree with the use of the collapse template. I think its use ought to be discouraged--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:16, 10 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Yeah, there is an excessive use with the collapse template. It should be used conservatively and, instead, it's used all the time. {{User:GR/sig}} 23:28, 10 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::We shouldn't be seen as giving a platform to people who say, &quot;racism doesn't exist but hating on men does&quot;. That definitely should have been collapsed. Don't worry about using the collapse template too much. If crap needs to be collapsed, collapse it. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 00:12, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Or don't be so stubborn and just revert it. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 00:30, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::: Or literally don't revert or remove it because the talk page policy states you may only remove &quot;obviously vile trolling&quot; and &quot;spam&quot;. Brx is right. In fact, nearly everything brx has said for months is right. What the fuck. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 03:38, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Yeah fuck man, what the fuck? Brx has gone from that vile bastard who shits on your lawn during their morning jog to a valued voice. It just shows how low some people have dragged this site when Brx becomes reasonable. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 04:04, 11 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::It's not my fault your lawn is so poorly maintained it looks like a gas station toilet--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 04:11, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::My God...next thing you know Satan will sin the Nobel Peace Prize!!! [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:26, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :I protected the Saloon Bar for 9 hours. I don't mind him spamming us a few times a week but clearly this troll must have gotten a particularly mean wedgie from the boys at school today, and feels the need to compensate for his insecurities extra hard. --[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:42, 11 September 2020 (UTC) ::Oh, so that's who Hastur is. I had wondered. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 05:57, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::That's Brx alright. Funny he used to be such an annoyance but now I kinda like him. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:20, 11 September 2020 (UTC) ::::You could also just clean up the shit on the floor, instead of letting it sit there and fester. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 02:30, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Oxyaena already being hostile/aggressive after getting sysop back. Hopefully the people who voted to give her sysop back will rein her in (sarcasm: they won't and they don't care). {{User:GR/sig}} 02:57, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I don't see how that's aggressive or hostile, but okay. It's just blunt, but, anyways, as always: {{dftt}}. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 03:21, 13 September 2020 (UTC) == Editwarring on the [[Leo Gura]] page == It's happening between two sysops (Machina and HairlessCat), and it has been going on for days now. Request input by the mods. {{User:GR/sig}} 00:48, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :Agree. We've already discussed on the talk page how it needs to be edited to be less verbose and that being a justified measure for change (I said I would edit it tomorrow). Although, I suspect Machina's changes are indeed more ideological in nature and not related to the prose at all, which'd be why Machina's not waiting a tad. [[User:HairlessCat|HairlessCat]] ([[User talk:HairlessCat|talk]]) 00:59, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::OK - I have protected the page as it is now. Hash it out on the talkpage please. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 01:18, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::{{ping|Machina}} You might want to respond to this here. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 01:22, 13 September 2020 (UTC) The additions I removed were more about legitimizing woo or crank ideas, so they weren't relevant to the topic. It's not important what drugs he took or what he felt as a result, especially since the only evidence for any of his claims is personal experience from drug use. The segment on the incompleteness theorems seems like a bid to led Leo's interpretation credibility even though the article linked mentions that such an interpretation is incorrect (in that case why include it). The study linked for psychedelics increasing rebellion is not what the study says at all. If it were Deepak I would slightly understand since he is a big name who literally influences far more than Leo. But that page rightly calls him out for what he is. The edits on the Leo page seem like they were either written by Leo or some apologist to give him some credibility when all he has is personal experience for his woo. The edits I took out were irrelevant to the whole topic, if others BESIDES Hairless feel that this is in error I will side with that judgment, especially if it's the mods. Otherwise I see no reason to admit I was wrong. I mean even the callout on the talk page shows Hairless is too close to the subject matter to give a clear view of it.[[User:Machina|Machina]] ([[User talk:Machina|talk]]) 02:26, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :A person having a mental breakdown that stops them from believing in woo is pretty important, and the Godel quote is actually meant to show where he is mistaken on that matter. This isn't a conspiracy to whitewash the page. I'll fix the prose evening ETC. On the sixteenth of September once things cool down. [[User:HairlessCat|HairlessCat]] ([[User talk:HairlessCat|talk]]) 14:42, 13 September 2020 (UTC) == Request for IP suppression in Edits == I mistakenly edited a page without logging in properly and left my IP on a page. Is it possible to delete it?--[[User:Nessundorma|Nessundorma]] ([[User talk:Nessundorma|talk]]) 03:07, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :Yes, but I think you are making it worse by notifying us. Otherwise it would just be a random IP editing a certain page and that be it. Unless there is a significant privacy risk, I don't think the mods or techs will heed your request, though. {{User:GR/sig}} 03:10, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::Easy fix. Just post the edit and we can make it like it never existed. Or email it if you want to take an extra measure of privacy--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 03:17, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Yeah, if you really want it removed, it's best to email the IP address to a moderator to make it less obvious, but if for some reason someone is watching recent edits, they might be able to figure it out anyway. Don't forget the [[Streisand effect]]. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 03:35, 13 September 2020 (UTC) == Raven == I request an interaction ban, he's going out of his way to troll me and, as per the terms of my probation, am requesting moderator assistance because I feel I can't handle this in a civil manner. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:13, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Saloon_bar&amp;curid=77683&amp;diff=2225557&amp;oldid=2225555 It would help if you didn't try to troll him]--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:15, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::{{dftt}} &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:18, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Not a mod, but Hastur, that doesn't really constitute &quot;trolling.&quot; Oxy is trying to abide by the terms of her probation. Grow up, please. [[User:RoninMacbeth|RoninMacbeth]] ([[User talk:RoninMacbeth|talk]]) 05:21, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::{{ec}}[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:Oxyaena&amp;curid=201740&amp;diff=2225636&amp;oldid=2224122 Why did you remove this?.] Anyways, de-escalation is one thing, but it's really the least we can ask of you to not try and needle Raven and then get offended when he responds in kind--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:22, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I asked why you egg Raven on, you said &quot;because it amuses me.&quot; You're no better than him. Get off your high horse please. You're actively hindering efforts to deescalate things. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:23, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I offer my observations. I derive amusement from all sorts of discourse. Adding commentary to your interactions with Godless Raven is much like adding commentary to WIGO:CP--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:28, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Grow up. Your &quot;observations&quot; only serve to inflame tensions even further. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:30, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Oxy, please try to just ignore Raven. I know your terms of probation are to inform mods instead of taking action yourself but please try to ignore Raven. Do not engage with him. That should be your first action to take rather than running straight to a mod. As a mod, and I don’t think I’ll be alone in this, I’d rather watch you be the bigger woman and walk away. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:49, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::To be clear, {{ping|Ace McWicked}}, Oxy attacked me first. Check Hastur's link. {{User:GR/sig}} 07:54, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::I don’t give a fucking shit who fucking attacked who. Raven, just fucking ignore and refuse to engage Oxy. Oxy, stay the fuck away from Raven. Jesus fucking Christ - this is like moderating my 6 year old daughter. At least she understands enough to stay away from the kids that are mean to her. What’s your fucking excuse? [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:14, 13 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} Yeah, bothsiding this won't help. Treating the reactor the same way you treat the instigator is a bit smoothbrained. but eh, sure, I'll stay &quot;away&quot; from Oxy. Don't forget that she is on probation, not me. {{User:GR/sig}} 09:09, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :Raven, for awhile there I was totally on your side. But no longer. Stop. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 09:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::I would like to see a solution that ends this endless fighting/cooping/pleading-for-rights-restoration. I don't think I'm the only one who's quite tired of it. If the solution is a stay-away agreement that both parties agree to, that's great. Otherwise, I would support whatever it takes: permanent sysoprevoke for one or both parties, or permaban. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 16:19, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::I don't think that's necessary, the whole reason I came here was because of me abiding by the terms of my probation. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:24, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Then why did you remove it, {{ping|Oxyaena}}? [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:Oxyaena&amp;diff=2225636&amp;oldid=2224122] This was part of the probation that you were supposed to undergo. {{ping|Bongolian}} The permaban was rejected by the mob in the last coop. If you want, you can start a coop to sysoprevoke me, but that would be quite funny because I didn't abuse my sysop tools to sysoprevoke me in the first place (unlike Oxy, who, according to Nutty's stats, has systemically abused it). {{User:GR/sig}} 17:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::{{ping|Ace McWicked}} &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 17:37, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I just want to point out that my recommendation of adding it to her profile page was just that, a recommendation so both she and the mods wouldn't forget. It wasn't ever added to the sanctions, so she's technically not required to do it since it's not a part of her sanctions (can't say why she'd remove it tho...). Anyway, GR, please stop stirring shit just because you don't like Oxy, or else you could be looking at an interaction ban, because you're just stirring shit up to get her angry. Hell, even ''Ace'' told you to stop doing this on your talkpage and here we are ''again'' on what I'm pretty sure is just the same subject. Cut it out. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:46, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Crow, nobody asked you. Shut up. {{User:GR/sig}} 18:12, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Crow is right. Just because nobody asked doesn’t mean crow can’t have an opinion. Raven, you’re burning any good will you had. Move on, fucking end it. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 18:15, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Raven. Stop. Leave Oxy alone. Do something else. Jerk smack, go for a walk, whatever else you want to do - you’re not making friends here. Just stay the fuck away from Oxy. Oxy, please do the same. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 17:55, 13 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}Yes, the permaban was rejected before, but given the frequent history of you two appearing in the coop, there's a reasonable likelihood that you're both going to burn all the good will you had to reinstate you. I'm not planning to coop either of you. I'm just saying that you two should stop causing shit shows for your own good. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:55, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :I`m merely abiding by my probation terms. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 18:59, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::Oh I really like that term &quot;jerk smack&quot;. Urban dictionary has an extremely descriptive definition of the term. It's quiet evocative and I dare say even poetic. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:09, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Urban dictionary is wrong. To jerk smack means to shoot up heroin. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 19:49, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Interaction ban that goes both ways would be acceptable to me. It'd be better if GR and Oxy would do it voluntarily without involving the mob. My respect for the first of the two to stop responding to the other ones provocations will increase exponentially. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 19:16, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I do think that you could've handled this better Ace. Perhaps a polite request to GR to stay away from Oxy, followed by a request that Oxy also do the same with GR would've gone down better? I can see Oxy's point, and I fail to see why she needs to stay the fuck away from GR. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:57, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Ace doesn't do politeness really well. But other than that [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:GR&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2225701| he did exactly] [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Oxyaena&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2225704| what you asked there.] {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 21:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::{{ping|Kiko4564}} If I was impolite it is only because this has been going on for ages. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 00:14, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Yeah fuck this burning trashfire. lol {{User:GR/sig}} 02:05, 14 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}Another day, another 'retirement'. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 02:20, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :We should start up a scoreboard for the most fake retirements. Maybe we can even offer a free t-shirt for whoever has the record by 2025![[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:44, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::I’m proud to say in my 12 years at RW I’ve never pulled a LANCB. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 05:38, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::Well if you're interested in experimenting a few of us could harass the shit out of you until you LANCB! Limited time offer. Just say the word :) [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:10, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::That wouldn’t work on me - I can give it back twice as hard and secondly I’m adept at ignoring it. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:26, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Really? Even if I call you a big stinky doe-head? [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:03, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Suggested prizes for most number of LANCBs ::::*First Prize: permaban (wish granted) ::::*Second Prize: sysoprevoke for life (next best thing) ::::*Third Prize: 1 week block (longer than you have probably ever LANCBed) ::::*Participation Prize: free joke block, chosen by a committee of never-LANCBers ::::[[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:19, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I'd say those prizes are generous. Are you personally funding them out of your own wallet Bongolian? [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:03, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Agreed, LANCB is now a cliche in my opinion. It should be LAMCB (Leave And Maybe Come Back), as that would actually mean something. Thanks for your politeness, and civility when dealing with Oxy, Ace. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 10:40, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::SABWBBTW is maybe more accurate (Storming Away But Will Be Back This Week) [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:41, 14 September 2020 (UTC) == Request to inconvenience an ip range == Particularly there's a persistent ip address in Saloon Bar with string 2001:8003:59DB:4100 that's spamming right wing links. Can we get a 1-week range block to inconvenience it? I prefer this over a page protection. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 07:21, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't have an objection per se, but it would simpler to put a 1-week protection on the Saloon since that would not require a vote. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:30, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :: I've seen an ip and a relative new user use that page, so I'm a bit hesitant barring them. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 07:40, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::A vote is required? That seems absurd to me. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 10:38, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I would vote in favor of a short range-block, if I can be assured a range block won't blot out a whole city or something--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 10:39, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I would vote Aye too, but I'm not an eligible voter. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 10:49, 14 September 2020 (UTC) 2001:8003::/32 seems to be the range. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Block/2001:8003:0:0:0:0:0:0/32 I note it has been blocked before.] {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 21:11, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :If a range block is unacceptable, what about using the edit filter to limiting this range's edits to once a day?--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:25, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::This works too; just do anything that can limit the ease of sharing links. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 01:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC) == Was I ever banned from this wiki? == See the discussion [[User_talk:DuceMoosolini#Smith|here]]. To make a long story short: one admin &quot;D&quot; started blocking my accounts as well as blocking many accounts I ''don't'' own (incorrectly tagging them under my name) after I confronted them about their behaviour and harassment a year back. As far as I'm aware there was no consensus to actually ban me from RationalWiki (or if there was it was manipulated by &quot;D&quot;), secondly, the ban doesn't work because I add valuable content on new accounts (I've been editing on Flight for 10 days and have already [[Patriotic Alternative|made]] [[Laura Towler|three]] [[Spiteful mutant hypothesis|articles]]) and come back and do the same thing on a new account — when I feel there is an important page that needs to be added to this wiki — like the [[Spiteful mutant hypothesis]]. If someone wants to take a look at what the harassment I confronted &quot;D&quot; about looks like (that has been going on now for ''over a year'') they can see [https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiInAction/comments/ggmjv5/banned_wikipedia_troll_captain_occam_real_name/fqr3bjk/?context=3 here] (&quot;D&quot;s Reddit account is virtually dedicated to libel): {{quotebox|Furthermore, the claim that Smith is mostly retired is contradicted by the many hundreds of accounts he's created on RationalWiki. Around 80 accounts a year since 2013. I don't necessarily have a feud with Oliver Smith beyond the fact he's a '''nationalist, anti-natalist, XXXXXXXXX, serial doxxer, cyber-harrasser, XXXXXXXXX etc'''. It would be truly difficult to imagine how I would even start character assassinating such an obnoxious person, he does it himself by simply existing.}} Needless to say none of these defamatory claims are true but I've had to deal with this crazy person run across the internet for the past year calling me everything from a paedophile, child abuser, child rapist, transphobe, psychopath, fascist, nationalist or far-right extremist on not only Reddit, but Discord, wiki-related forums and allegedly in emails where they are libelling me to others. Note &quot;D&quot; is not even consistent with the lies they post about me, for example they claimed on Reddit I created 80 accounts a year since 2013 (560 accounts) yet contradict themselves on a recent [[User_talk:DuceMoosolini#Smith|talk page]] claiming I own approximately 150. What happened to the other 400 accounts? [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:01, 14 September 2020 (UTC) : For clarification I've owned around three dozen accounts since 2012. Claims of hundreds of accounts, 150 or 560 are a wild exaggeration.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:48, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::Contrary to the quick closure done by {{ping|D}}, I want to point out that there has been no due process for Smith. Rather, Smith appears to have been speedily banned after he [[RationalWiki:Articles_for_deletion/Emil_Kirkegaard|filed AfDs for pages he created]], after admitting he'd gotten into legal trouble with some idiots and he didn't want RW to get into trouble. Dysk seems to then have gone and banned him outside of the mob, which in accordance with basic CS rules meant it had to be raised and '''voted on by the mob''' to get Smith permanently banned. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus While it was raised in ATIM], there was never any consensus reached on getting Smith banned. As a result, I feel that Smith does not currently preside under the rules that would constitute a permanent block, and it would be desirable for the mob to consider doing that vote now, because as is, there is no grounds to block Smith or any of his alts. Furthermore, I also call into question the competence of {{ping|D}}, who in this link appears to have admitted to using the Edit Filter as an outright alternative to CheckUser (tech rights technically allow for this, yes I need to bother David over this and yes I've been lazy in doing that), which is a fairly blatant abuse of rights given our rules surrounding the fact that we don't use CU and using AbuseFilter as a way around this is scummy as fuck. ::Finally, {{ping|Bongolian}} there is no need to block out &quot;XXXXXXXXX&quot; and &quot;XXXXXXXXX&quot; here. These are words Dysk said on that subreddit. I've undone the suppression of those edits. ::Because I was not specifically involved in whatever incident originally led to Smith getting his ass kicked (from what I know, not many a tear was shed over his departure), I will personally refrain from voting for this, but we have to respect basic procedure here. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:45, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::''who in this link appears to have admitted to using the Edit Filter as an outright alternative to CheckUser'' I've long thought this was the case. In which case - anyone using the edit filter to check IP's should have tech rights removed immediately. I suspect Oxy used this feature too. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 20:35, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::I do not like Smith, and will openly state that I would vote to ban him if it came to that. However, it is better to go through the proper procedures, lest a mistake allow him and his drama to remain. {{User:GrammarCommie/sig}} 18:00, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::{{Modhat}} The citation that was given by does not contain that text. It is indeed potentially libelous, as we don't know with absolute — just reasonable — certainty that this is the same Smith person. Reinstating the text is inadvisable, to say the least, because I hid the edits that showed it. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:39, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::It does contain that text. In fact, it's a literal cite (the only change is the removal of a newline, which might just have been the result from copy and pasting) from /u/Dysklyver (which is rather obviously Dysks' reddit handle). I would argue that we can say with enough absolute certainity that this is the same Smith, given that this user is arguing that he shouldn't be blocked, and his arguments are based on the assumption that he is Smith (which combined with his spiel on Duce's talkpage would indicate that he is Smith), which would be really weird if he wasn't actually Smith. Anyway, to prevent wheel warring, I won't bother to undo these suppressions. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 19:03, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::From what I have seen Dysklyver was originally on friendly terms with Smith. Dysklyver then became a close friend of [[Abd Lomax]] (who is banned here) and Lomax turned Dysklyver against Smith. On Reddit there has been a Dysklyver/Abd war against Smith and vise versa going on for over a year. They create countless petty threads against each other with accusations of sock-puppetry. Dysklyver has tech rights and he can see the IP address/s of created accounts on here. D has got a list of IP addresses from RationalWiki accounts which he claims match to Smith's geographical location (he's admitted this in a Reddit post) so he can apparently identify Smith by private IP data. Abd has repeatedly published private IP data on his website accusing Smith of owning hundreds of sock-puppets on this website. This is obviously a privacy violation. Mikemikev also has a history of impersonating Smith and he is also somehow involved in this drama. :::::: Abd is a prolific sock-puppeteer himself, and globally banned from Wikipedia for doxing users. I don't trust any of his data. Dysklyver/Smith are both good editors. The real issue here is Abd Lomax, he appears to have a heavy influence over Dysklyver and responsible for the Dysklyver/Smith drama. BTW I am somehow loosely connected to this 'drama' by Lomax who still accuses me of being Smith and posts about 1 million essays on his website about my account, however unlike other users he has accused of being Smith I have never engaged any of his nonsense off this website. I don't care what people write, but private IP data thing is out of order. Abd is untrustworthy and should not be given private IP data or logs from this website. The man is a menace. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 21:44, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ===Should we hold a full vote to confirm the ban?=== {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 18:35, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :No. Oliver Smith was permabanned. If Smith wants to appeal that ban, that was entirely the wrong way to go about it. If he thinks he was unjustly banned, he should: :#Take any off-wiki disputes with D or anyone else elsewhere, and not bring them up here. :#Confess to all of his puppet accounts and list them out: they were all ban evasions. :#Give a full explanation of why he thinks he was unjustly banned, including thorough citations. :[[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 19:16, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::Oliver Smith was not permabanned in accordance with our CS. He was blocked outside of our regular procedures by Dysk and aftewards there was no vote on him getting blocked, just some amount of yes-nodding and the closest to a consensus was a private agreement between Oxy and RWRW. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 19:20, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::The community standards weren't as rigorously enforced back then, RW was a different place. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 19:32, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::For anyone wondering, this 'agreement' between myself and Oxy is referenced to [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive13#Aeschylus here]. It was something like 18 months ago so I can't remember the conversation, but I don't deny that it probably happened. I don't think there was ever a formal vote to ban Smith so in a sense Crow is right about that, in a sense he's just been considered 'de-facto' banned. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 19:35, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::What was the first Smith account that was banned? I thought it was much older than 18 months ago. David Gerard banned an account years ago for impersonating Smith (it was Mikemikev according to him). [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 19:40, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Earliest Smith account that I've found was User:Krom, which was abandoned in 2015. I can't find any Smith account that was permabanned before February 2019 by Dysk (though I could be mistaken, he's had so many different accounts that it isn't easy to keep on top). {{Ping|D}} might know if there was any more. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 20:13, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::: D can see IP addresses on here for accounts so I am not sure how that works in regard to privacy, it can't really &quot;work&quot; because it is a violation of privacy. Can he check old edits and logs and get IP data from accounts created years ago? On most wikis CU data goes to about 6 months at the most, but I am guessing this is different. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 22:11, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Techs can only see IPs of users who proc the filter, which from what I know doesn't have expiring logs. (And yes this needs to be fixed.) I can't say for certain right now, in part because I obviously can't publicly spell out our anti spam tools (would be circumventable), whether or not any Techs have made lasting filters that would log every edit/account creation. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 22:36, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::: I believe it has been misused and there is a privacy violation. Dysk has admitted to collecting private IP data on Smith's RationalWiki accounts. Various private data and logs were sent to Abd Lomax (Lomax is a mod on Dysk/EK's discord). How do we know other private data is not being leaked off this website? [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 22:45, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::We need to hide IP's even from techs. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 23:13, 14 September 2020 (UTC) : There are untrue claims by Dysk I use VPNs or TOR. I've never used one or tried to conceal my home IP-address here or anywhere else and anyone who can check IPs will see I'm not using a VPN now. Also note if you go back years I used to edit here publicly on my home-IP. That wouldn't make any sense if I was a VPN/TOR user trying to hide it. As for listing incorrect reasons for why I was banned - I did that on another page and this has been mentioned above by The Crow - the block was outside of regular procedures by Dysk/EK/Ox on Discord. The account they banned was [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Tobias Tobias] in May 2019 based on false allegations I doxed EK who Dysk has claimed is their sister. I never did dox, but linked to EK's public Wikipedia blocked account. According though to EK/Dysk the fact I posted a Wikipedia url is &quot;malicious doxxing&quot;. I suggest mods who can look through striked (deleted) content see [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Tobias my edits]. To summarise I was banned for no valid reason whatsoever. All the other accounts of mine Dysk has blocked such as Krom came after Tobias.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 23:17, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::Are we burying the lede here? People have been using edit filter to gain IP Address information? This is about as anti-RW as it gets and you lot are just going to gloss over that? [[Special:Contributions/203.54.149.190|203.54.149.190]] ([[User talk:203.54.149.190|talk]]) 00:45, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::I am with the BoN here. RW has been '''strictly and stridently''' opposed to IP checking since it's inception. Anyone doing so should be kick-banned immediately with prejudice. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 00:48, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::: Well it is too late now, it's been going on for about six months or so, maybe longer. I know this issue has been raised several times before on here but no action was taken. I have only just realized how bad this is. The geezers who run this website need to be informed. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 01:11, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I believe that we went over this issue before, separately with both D and Oxy, who both denied that it took place. If anyone has any evidence to the contrary, let's have it. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 01:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I looked through the edit filters. I don’t see anything that looks like a pseudo-checkuser. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 01:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::OK - cool. I'll take your word for it. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 02:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::D has admitted to using filter IP data to ban a number of alleged Smith accounts. I've seen the filters, and though I haven't gone through the log data to confirm any blocked IP addresses appear there, I'm not sure why I'd doubt his claim. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 02:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC) Mhm let's see; :- I blocked a lot of accounts and IP addresses as sockpuppets of Smith over a year or so following the doxing incidents. The vast majority of these were admitted accounts, with a few blocks based on obvious behavioural similarities. :- While at the time of blocking the relevant accounts I was unaware of the fact IP addresses were visible I later discovered this by accident, and mostly out of curiosity, used this feature to check the IP-Data on several accounts I'd blocked in the past. :- The IP-Data appears to remain recorded forever, I looked at some random edit filter events from the distant past and the IP-Data is still there. :- I considered this for a while to be a potentially useful stand-in for checkuser, although I never used it at such as it was unnecessary to do so, somewhat difficult to use, plus I felt that was likely to be not appreciated by others (despite not being technically against the rules). :- I later used the fact I'd seen several items of IP-Data, to tell Smith to fuck off and stop lying on Reddit during an argument. Smith's reaction was as if I had access to a Checkuser equivalent tool, and in the absence of any documentation explaining how limited this feature is, I encouraged that thought to wind him up. :- Despite John's claims, Abd has never seen any IP-Data, isn't a mod on any relevant Discord, and no IP-Data from this site has ever been externally recorded. Indeed except on a few occasions nobody has bothered to even look at it. :- While Oxyaena was a Tech here she became aware of the method to access IP-Data, and used it to check the IPs of Morris accounts to an unknown extent, I never asked for details on this. :- In some attempt to fix this edit filter loophole, I posted on David's talk page nearly four months on 18th June asking for this to be fixed, it has not been fixed at time of writing, IP-Data is visible to any Tech that wants to see it, although I haven't personally bothered for many months. :- Some months ago, when I'm not sure exactly, I discussed this on Discord and it was agreed to be a major site security flaw. Although only those with shell access can fix it, me and Ze later closed many edit filters to the bare minimum to avoid users tripping them unnecessarily. For example no Autoconfirmed, Autopatrolled, or Sysop flagged user will trip a filter. :- I have discussed the IP-Data concerns on Discord with numerous users, including The Crow, Nutty, Oxyaena, in addition to informing David who replied to my comment about it 4 months ago and is aware of the issue. I believe this covers the main points of discussion, if I missed anything let me know, I'll reply when I get back here at a later date. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 06:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&diff=2226169</id> <title>RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&diff=2226169"/> <updated>2020-09-14T15:50:07Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Was I ever banned from this wiki? */ <hr /> <div>{{mod talk header}} &lt;center&gt;[[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive_List|Archives for this page]]&lt;/center&gt; {{#tag:inputbox| bgcolor=transparent type=fulltext prefix=RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation break=yes width={{{width|60}}} searchbuttonlabel={{{label|Search the archives}}} }} [[File:Moderator.jpg|thumb]] __TOC__ &lt;!-- write below this line --&gt; == Requesting input on CS interpretation == Okay, I'll just keep this short. As a part of [[RW:BLOCK]], we forbid bigoted material being posted on the wiki, which warrants a block. To this end, I've attempted earlier today to clean up three Saloon threads because two BONs inserted blockable crap as threads (a Comicsgate website and a [[Ludwig von Mises Institute]] article that goes &quot;racism doesn't exist, but hating on men does&quot;) and the third one being a Steven Crowder video on how Trump deserves a Noble Peace Prize. I'm not here to ask about that last one, given it was duplicitous anyway. Rather, Hastur appears to have restored the other two, saying &quot;if I don't like it, just ignore it&quot;. What I am in effect asking here is that in the event that we block someone for posting bigoted crap, is it okay to then also ''remove'' the bigoted crap. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 19:57, 10 September 2020 (UTC) :I would argue that this particular BoN's posts don't meet the standard of what is block/removal worthy. If we can't handle a link to the Ludwig von Mises institute, we have a problem--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 20:20, 10 September 2020 (UTC) ::Agreed. {{User:GR/sig}} 20:21, 10 September 2020 (UTC) :::I am content with just placing the troll posts in a nice &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{collapse}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; block. —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:15, 10 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I disagree with the use of the collapse template. I think its use ought to be discouraged--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:16, 10 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Yeah, there is an excessive use with the collapse template. It should be used conservatively and, instead, it's used all the time. {{User:GR/sig}} 23:28, 10 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::We shouldn't be seen as giving a platform to people who say, &quot;racism doesn't exist but hating on men does&quot;. That definitely should have been collapsed. Don't worry about using the collapse template too much. If crap needs to be collapsed, collapse it. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 00:12, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Or don't be so stubborn and just revert it. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 00:30, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::: Or literally don't revert or remove it because the talk page policy states you may only remove &quot;obviously vile trolling&quot; and &quot;spam&quot;. Brx is right. In fact, nearly everything brx has said for months is right. What the fuck. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 03:38, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Yeah fuck man, what the fuck? Brx has gone from that vile bastard who shits on your lawn during their morning jog to a valued voice. It just shows how low some people have dragged this site when Brx becomes reasonable. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 04:04, 11 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::It's not my fault your lawn is so poorly maintained it looks like a gas station toilet--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 04:11, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::My God...next thing you know Satan will sin the Nobel Peace Prize!!! [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:26, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :I protected the Saloon Bar for 9 hours. I don't mind him spamming us a few times a week but clearly this troll must have gotten a particularly mean wedgie from the boys at school today, and feels the need to compensate for his insecurities extra hard. --[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:42, 11 September 2020 (UTC) ::Oh, so that's who Hastur is. I had wondered. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 05:57, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::That's Brx alright. Funny he used to be such an annoyance but now I kinda like him. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:20, 11 September 2020 (UTC) ::::You could also just clean up the shit on the floor, instead of letting it sit there and fester. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 02:30, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Oxyaena already being hostile/aggressive after getting sysop back. Hopefully the people who voted to give her sysop back will rein her in (sarcasm: they won't and they don't care). {{User:GR/sig}} 02:57, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I don't see how that's aggressive or hostile, but okay. It's just blunt, but, anyways, as always: {{dftt}}. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 03:21, 13 September 2020 (UTC) == Editwarring on the [[Leo Gura]] page == It's happening between two sysops (Machina and HairlessCat), and it has been going on for days now. Request input by the mods. {{User:GR/sig}} 00:48, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :Agree. We've already discussed on the talk page how it needs to be edited to be less verbose and that being a justified measure for change (I said I would edit it tomorrow). Although, I suspect Machina's changes are indeed more ideological in nature and not related to the prose at all, which'd be why Machina's not waiting a tad. [[User:HairlessCat|HairlessCat]] ([[User talk:HairlessCat|talk]]) 00:59, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::OK - I have protected the page as it is now. Hash it out on the talkpage please. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 01:18, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::{{ping|Machina}} You might want to respond to this here. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 01:22, 13 September 2020 (UTC) The additions I removed were more about legitimizing woo or crank ideas, so they weren't relevant to the topic. It's not important what drugs he took or what he felt as a result, especially since the only evidence for any of his claims is personal experience from drug use. The segment on the incompleteness theorems seems like a bid to led Leo's interpretation credibility even though the article linked mentions that such an interpretation is incorrect (in that case why include it). The study linked for psychedelics increasing rebellion is not what the study says at all. If it were Deepak I would slightly understand since he is a big name who literally influences far more than Leo. But that page rightly calls him out for what he is. The edits on the Leo page seem like they were either written by Leo or some apologist to give him some credibility when all he has is personal experience for his woo. The edits I took out were irrelevant to the whole topic, if others BESIDES Hairless feel that this is in error I will side with that judgment, especially if it's the mods. Otherwise I see no reason to admit I was wrong. I mean even the callout on the talk page shows Hairless is too close to the subject matter to give a clear view of it.[[User:Machina|Machina]] ([[User talk:Machina|talk]]) 02:26, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :A person having a mental breakdown that stops them from believing in woo is pretty important, and the Godel quote is actually meant to show where he is mistaken on that matter. This isn't a conspiracy to whitewash the page. I'll fix the prose evening ETC. On the sixteenth of September once things cool down. [[User:HairlessCat|HairlessCat]] ([[User talk:HairlessCat|talk]]) 14:42, 13 September 2020 (UTC) == Request for IP suppression in Edits == I mistakenly edited a page without logging in properly and left my IP on a page. Is it possible to delete it?--[[User:Nessundorma|Nessundorma]] ([[User talk:Nessundorma|talk]]) 03:07, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :Yes, but I think you are making it worse by notifying us. Otherwise it would just be a random IP editing a certain page and that be it. Unless there is a significant privacy risk, I don't think the mods or techs will heed your request, though. {{User:GR/sig}} 03:10, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::Easy fix. Just post the edit and we can make it like it never existed. Or email it if you want to take an extra measure of privacy--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 03:17, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Yeah, if you really want it removed, it's best to email the IP address to a moderator to make it less obvious, but if for some reason someone is watching recent edits, they might be able to figure it out anyway. Don't forget the [[Streisand effect]]. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 03:35, 13 September 2020 (UTC) == Raven == I request an interaction ban, he's going out of his way to troll me and, as per the terms of my probation, am requesting moderator assistance because I feel I can't handle this in a civil manner. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:13, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Saloon_bar&amp;curid=77683&amp;diff=2225557&amp;oldid=2225555 It would help if you didn't try to troll him]--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:15, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::{{dftt}} &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:18, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Not a mod, but Hastur, that doesn't really constitute &quot;trolling.&quot; Oxy is trying to abide by the terms of her probation. Grow up, please. [[User:RoninMacbeth|RoninMacbeth]] ([[User talk:RoninMacbeth|talk]]) 05:21, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::{{ec}}[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:Oxyaena&amp;curid=201740&amp;diff=2225636&amp;oldid=2224122 Why did you remove this?.] Anyways, de-escalation is one thing, but it's really the least we can ask of you to not try and needle Raven and then get offended when he responds in kind--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:22, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I asked why you egg Raven on, you said &quot;because it amuses me.&quot; You're no better than him. Get off your high horse please. You're actively hindering efforts to deescalate things. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:23, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I offer my observations. I derive amusement from all sorts of discourse. Adding commentary to your interactions with Godless Raven is much like adding commentary to WIGO:CP--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:28, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Grow up. Your &quot;observations&quot; only serve to inflame tensions even further. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 05:30, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Oxy, please try to just ignore Raven. I know your terms of probation are to inform mods instead of taking action yourself but please try to ignore Raven. Do not engage with him. That should be your first action to take rather than running straight to a mod. As a mod, and I don’t think I’ll be alone in this, I’d rather watch you be the bigger woman and walk away. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:49, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::To be clear, {{ping|Ace McWicked}}, Oxy attacked me first. Check Hastur's link. {{User:GR/sig}} 07:54, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::I don’t give a fucking shit who fucking attacked who. Raven, just fucking ignore and refuse to engage Oxy. Oxy, stay the fuck away from Raven. Jesus fucking Christ - this is like moderating my 6 year old daughter. At least she understands enough to stay away from the kids that are mean to her. What’s your fucking excuse? [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:14, 13 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} Yeah, bothsiding this won't help. Treating the reactor the same way you treat the instigator is a bit smoothbrained. but eh, sure, I'll stay &quot;away&quot; from Oxy. Don't forget that she is on probation, not me. {{User:GR/sig}} 09:09, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :Raven, for awhile there I was totally on your side. But no longer. Stop. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 09:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::I would like to see a solution that ends this endless fighting/cooping/pleading-for-rights-restoration. I don't think I'm the only one who's quite tired of it. If the solution is a stay-away agreement that both parties agree to, that's great. Otherwise, I would support whatever it takes: permanent sysoprevoke for one or both parties, or permaban. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 16:19, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::I don't think that's necessary, the whole reason I came here was because of me abiding by the terms of my probation. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:24, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Then why did you remove it, {{ping|Oxyaena}}? [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:Oxyaena&amp;diff=2225636&amp;oldid=2224122] This was part of the probation that you were supposed to undergo. {{ping|Bongolian}} The permaban was rejected by the mob in the last coop. If you want, you can start a coop to sysoprevoke me, but that would be quite funny because I didn't abuse my sysop tools to sysoprevoke me in the first place (unlike Oxy, who, according to Nutty's stats, has systemically abused it). {{User:GR/sig}} 17:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::{{ping|Ace McWicked}} &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 17:37, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I just want to point out that my recommendation of adding it to her profile page was just that, a recommendation so both she and the mods wouldn't forget. It wasn't ever added to the sanctions, so she's technically not required to do it since it's not a part of her sanctions (can't say why she'd remove it tho...). Anyway, GR, please stop stirring shit just because you don't like Oxy, or else you could be looking at an interaction ban, because you're just stirring shit up to get her angry. Hell, even ''Ace'' told you to stop doing this on your talkpage and here we are ''again'' on what I'm pretty sure is just the same subject. Cut it out. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:46, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Crow, nobody asked you. Shut up. {{User:GR/sig}} 18:12, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Crow is right. Just because nobody asked doesn’t mean crow can’t have an opinion. Raven, you’re burning any good will you had. Move on, fucking end it. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 18:15, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Raven. Stop. Leave Oxy alone. Do something else. Jerk smack, go for a walk, whatever else you want to do - you’re not making friends here. Just stay the fuck away from Oxy. Oxy, please do the same. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 17:55, 13 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}Yes, the permaban was rejected before, but given the frequent history of you two appearing in the coop, there's a reasonable likelihood that you're both going to burn all the good will you had to reinstate you. I'm not planning to coop either of you. I'm just saying that you two should stop causing shit shows for your own good. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:55, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :I`m merely abiding by my probation terms. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 18:59, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::Oh I really like that term &quot;jerk smack&quot;. Urban dictionary has an extremely descriptive definition of the term. It's quiet evocative and I dare say even poetic. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:09, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Urban dictionary is wrong. To jerk smack means to shoot up heroin. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 19:49, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::Interaction ban that goes both ways would be acceptable to me. It'd be better if GR and Oxy would do it voluntarily without involving the mob. My respect for the first of the two to stop responding to the other ones provocations will increase exponentially. {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 19:16, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I do think that you could've handled this better Ace. Perhaps a polite request to GR to stay away from Oxy, followed by a request that Oxy also do the same with GR would've gone down better? I can see Oxy's point, and I fail to see why she needs to stay the fuck away from GR. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:57, 13 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Ace doesn't do politeness really well. But other than that [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:GR&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2225701| he did exactly] [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Oxyaena&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2225704| what you asked there.] {{User:Coigreach/sig}} 21:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::{{ping|Kiko4564}} If I was impolite it is only because this has been going on for ages. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 00:14, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Yeah fuck this burning trashfire. lol {{User:GR/sig}} 02:05, 14 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}Another day, another 'retirement'. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 02:20, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :We should start up a scoreboard for the most fake retirements. Maybe we can even offer a free t-shirt for whoever has the record by 2025![[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:44, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::I’m proud to say in my 12 years at RW I’ve never pulled a LANCB. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 05:38, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::Well if you're interested in experimenting a few of us could harass the shit out of you until you LANCB! Limited time offer. Just say the word :) [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:10, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::That wouldn’t work on me - I can give it back twice as hard and secondly I’m adept at ignoring it. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:26, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Really? Even if I call you a big stinky doe-head? [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:03, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Suggested prizes for most number of LANCBs ::::*First Prize: permaban (wish granted) ::::*Second Prize: sysoprevoke for life (next best thing) ::::*Third Prize: 1 week block (longer than you have probably ever LANCBed) ::::*Participation Prize: free joke block, chosen by a committee of never-LANCBers ::::[[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:19, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I'd say those prizes are generous. Are you personally funding them out of your own wallet Bongolian? [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:03, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Agreed, LANCB is now a cliche in my opinion. It should be LAMCB (Leave And Maybe Come Back), as that would actually mean something. Thanks for your politeness, and civility when dealing with Oxy, Ace. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 10:40, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::SABWBBTW is maybe more accurate (Storming Away But Will Be Back This Week) [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:41, 14 September 2020 (UTC) == Request to inconvenience an ip range == Particularly there's a persistent ip address in Saloon Bar with string 2001:8003:59DB:4100 that's spamming right wing links. Can we get a 1-week range block to inconvenience it? I prefer this over a page protection. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 07:21, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't have an objection per se, but it would simpler to put a 1-week protection on the Saloon since that would not require a vote. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:30, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :: I've seen an ip and a relative new user use that page, so I'm a bit hesitant barring them. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 07:40, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::A vote is required? That seems absurd to me. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 10:38, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I would vote in favor of a short range-block, if I can be assured a range block won't blot out a whole city or something--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 10:39, 14 September 2020 (UTC) :::::I would vote Aye too, but I'm not an eligible voter. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 10:49, 14 September 2020 (UTC) == Was I ever banned from this wiki? == {{collapse|Yes.}} See the discussion [[User_talk:DuceMoosolini#Smith|here]]. To make a long story short: one admin &quot;D&quot; started blocking my accounts as well as blocking many accounts I ''don't'' own (incorrectly tagging them under my name) after I confronted them about their behaviour and harassment a year back. As far as I'm aware there was no consensus to actually ban me from RationalWiki (or if there was it was manipulated by &quot;D&quot;), secondly, the ban doesn't work because I add valuable content on new accounts (I've been editing on Flight for 10 days and have already [[Patriotic Alternative|made]] [[Laura Towler|three]] [[Spiteful mutant hypothesis|articles]]) and come back and do the same thing on a new account — when I feel there is an important page that needs to be added to this wiki — like the [[Spiteful mutant hypothesis]]. If someone wants to take a look at what the harassment I confronted &quot;D&quot; about looks like (that has been going on now for ''over a year'') they can see [https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiInAction/comments/ggmjv5/banned_wikipedia_troll_captain_occam_real_name/fqr3bjk/?context=3 here] (&quot;D&quot;s Reddit account is virtually dedicated to libel): {{quotebox|Furthermore, the claim that Smith is mostly retired is contradicted by the many hundreds of accounts he's created on RationalWiki. Around 80 accounts a year since 2013. I don't necessarily have a feud with Oliver Smith beyond the fact he's a '''nationalist, anti-natalist, pedophile, serial doxxer, cyber-harrasser, child abuser etc'''. It would be truly difficult to imagine how I would even start character assassinating such an obnoxious person, he does it himself by simply existing.}} Needless to say none of these defamatory claims are true but I've had to deal with this crazy person run across the internet for the past year calling me everything from a paedophile, child abuser, child rapist, transphobe, psychopath, fascist, nationalist or far-right extremist on not only Reddit, but Discord, wiki-related forums and allegedly in emails where they are libelling me to others. Note &quot;D&quot; is not even consistent with the lies they post about me, for example they claimed on Reddit I created 80 accounts a year since 2013 (560 accounts) yet contradict themselves on a recent [[User_talk:DuceMoosolini#Smith|talk page]] claiming I own approximately 150. What happened to the other 400 accounts? [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:01, 14 September 2020 (UTC) : For clarification I've owned around three dozen accounts since 2012. Claims of hundreds of accounts, 150 or 560 are a wild exaggeration.[[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 12:48, 14 September 2020 (UTC) {{collapseend}}</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:DuceMoosolini&diff=2226155</id> <title>User talk:DuceMoosolini</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:DuceMoosolini&diff=2226155"/> <updated>2020-09-14T14:27:28Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Smith */ <hr /> <div>{{Talkpage/Pibot |algo = old(30d) |archive = User talk:DuceMoosolini/Archive%(counter)d |maxarchivesize = 100K |search = yes |counter = 1 }} {{quotebox|&lt;center&gt;'''Before viewing or posting on this talkpage, please view the [[User:DuceMoosolini/Terms and Conditions|terms of service]].'''&lt;/center&gt;}} [[File:Pizza SPIN.gif|thumb|right|300px|It's pizza time!]] [[File:Nightingale.png|thumb|right|150px|[[Fun:The truth about Rationalwiki|They need to know the truth]].]] == 2019 moderator nomination == {{modnotice}} -- Regards, [[User:Cosmikdebris|Cosmikdebris]] ([[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]) 01:18, 2 November 2019 (UTC) == Mod rights == You should keep them until the election my man. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;i9&lt;/sup&gt;]] 04:11, 7 November 2019 (UTC) :Based on your advice, I have readded my mod rights. I'm not changing my signature back, though. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 04:50, 7 November 2019 (UTC) ::Don't worry about the sig - it's just that if you step down as mod now then the alternate needs to be modded until the election in a week which is an administrative pain in the ass. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;i9&lt;/sup&gt;]] 05:31, 7 November 2019 (UTC) == Mikey boy == Wanna take bets when he'll show up again? &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:56, 17 November 2019 (UTC) :He'll be back by the end of the month. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 14:13, 18 November 2019 (UTC) == Hey man... == ...Just though I would give you a shout-out as a thanks. My reintegration to the wiki after quite a long break ruffled a few feathers (we know who) despite me abiding by and assisting others in maintaining our community standards and blocking policies. You've been a pleasure to deal with and would have been happy to vote for you as mod again if you'd run. I'll buy you a drink one day. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;McWicked&lt;/sup&gt;]] 23:01, 25 November 2019 (UTC) :Thanks for the compliment! {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 23:25, 26 November 2019 (UTC) ::Meh, I hadn't been nice to anyone for awhile and my girlfriend was at work. So you'll have to do. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;McWicked&lt;/sup&gt;]] 23:39, 26 November 2019 (UTC) :::&quot;Our&quot; blocking policy has always been complete garbage. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 13:01, 27 November 2019 (UTC) == My apologies == But I`m in a feisty mood. Fite me. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:16, 27 November 2019 (UTC) == Drive on == &lt;youtube&gt;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAbgmXVaOc8&amp;has_verified=1&lt;/youtube&gt; This is a great song. Johnny Cash was a hero, rest in peace. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:17, 27 November 2019 (UTC) :Always love me a good 'Nam song. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 16:21, 27 November 2019 (UTC) == Neoliberalism == Tell me you're not a neolib. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:26, 1 December 2019 (UTC) :Based on what this wiki’s article says neoliberalism is, no, not really. Why? {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:30, 1 December 2019 (UTC) ::Neolibs are bastards. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:40, 1 December 2019 (UTC) == About the Ataturk box == Mustafa is still in your [[User:DuceMoosolini/userboxes|userbox list]]. You might want to kick him out.[[User:Summa Atheologica|Summa Atheologica]] ([[User talk:Summa Atheologica|talk]]) :Done. To be honest, I forgot I made that subpage. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 22:38, 1 December 2019 (UTC) ==Winter Board of Trustees meeting== We need to arrange a time for a Board of Trustees meeting. Would the morning of next Saturday (21 December) be good for you? [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 16:23, 14 December 2019 (UTC) :Just posted to the Group. {{User:DuceMoosolini/Xmasig}} 19:35, 14 December 2019 (UTC) ::And you suggested 14:00 UTC. Since I joined the Board, most of our meetings have been at 16:00 UTC. I'm happy to have the meeting two hours earlier (10:00 PM my time instead of midnight). But I think it would be unrealistic to ask you and LGM in the States to get up that early on a Saturday morning. Can we make it 16:00 UTC? [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 05:37, 16 December 2019 (UTC) :::16:00 UTC is 8AM my time. I d'wanna wake up even earlier. Zzzzz. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 07:44, 16 December 2019 (UTC) == Don't mess with my talk page. == I want to keep it blank because i have retired from this site and will never ever come back, Please respect my wishes. [[User:Jaydogg1994|Jaydogg1994]] ([[User talk:Jaydogg1994|talk]]) 00:47, 15 December 2019 (UTC) :Talk pages contain messages from other users and are thus community record. That’s why we have archives.{{User:DuceMoosolini/Xmasig}} 00:53, 15 December 2019 (UTC) == Are you fucking joking? == Really? look at the edit. [[User:AMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] ([[User talk:AMassiveGay|talk]]) 20:08, 15 December 2019 (UTC) :The edit's stupid, so reply saying so. But I see nothing so offensive as to warrant removal. {{User:DuceMoosolini/Xmasig}} 20:11, 15 December 2019 (UTC) ::nah just continued harassment of everyones favourite lolcow. [[User:AMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] ([[User talk:AMassiveGay|talk]]) 20:34, 15 December 2019 (UTC) :::[[wp:wp:RBI]] fwiw [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 10:55, 16 December 2019 (UTC) ==Could you please...?== Could you please update the [[Template:Ar|Arabic language template]] so that it's on just one line like all the others? Thank you [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 04:51, 20 December 2019 (UTC) :Gave it my best shot, hope nothing's messed up.{{User:DuceMoosolini/Xmasig}} 05:00, 20 December 2019 (UTC) ::It looks good [[Islam#See also|here]] to me. Thanks. You are a star. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 11:13, 20 December 2019 (UTC) == Muhammad == The [[Muhammad]] article could use a lot of improvement, and be less casually Islamophobic as well. I checked the talk page and it seems that people here were really shitty back in the day, including the fucking &quot;freeze peach&quot; crowd. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 23:46, 2 January 2020 (UTC) :I'm gonna mention that I did do a lot of work on that article just so that casual visitors to my talkpage don't think that I left ya hanging. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 23:07, 5 January 2020 (UTC) ::Good call lol. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 23:27, 5 January 2020 (UTC) == British Empire == Just so you know, I did not insert the large section you subsequently removed, that was someone else. I only fixed spelling and grammar in a few places. There must have been an edit collision, or I inadvertently edited an intermediate revision instead of the latest. I'm trying to be more careful about that. [[User:Dave Wise 2|Dave Wise 2]] ([[User talk:Dave Wise 2|talk]]) 20:25, 10 January 2020 (UTC) :My deletion didn't have anything to do with you. I just read the section and realized that it was a bunch of quotes that weren't cited at all and didn't say very much about the British Empire. I plan to expand the article later, assuming I'm not ''persona non grata'' by then. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 22:23, 10 January 2020 (UTC) == Discord == What's your Discord name and numbers? I wanna invite you to the [[User:Oxyaena/Corn|Secret Club]] but I need your account details (name and numbers) first. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 12:28, 30 January 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|User:Oxyaena}} DuceMoosolini#5758 {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 13:42, 30 January 2020 (UTC) == Your ableism == It appears that you have recently used &quot;r*tard&quot; in your edit summary. As a parent of a disabled child, I find this highly offensive. &lt;sup&gt;&amp;mdash; Unsigned, by: [[Special:Contributions/2620:18C:0:0:0:0:0:230|2620:18C:0:0:0:0:0:230]] / [[User talk:2620:18C:0:0:0:0:0:230|talk]] &lt;/sup&gt; :That doesn't make Duce a Nazi though. {{User:GrammarCommie/sig}} 14:50, 15 February 2020 (UTC) ::Yeah, as a disabled adult, I think Duce needs to improve on that. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:49, 15 February 2020 (UTC) :::I don't think it's anything intentional mind you, Duce is not a ''personally'' hateful and bigoted person, but no one's perfect. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:54, 15 February 2020 (UTC) ::::Okay, I'll knock that off. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 20:18, 15 February 2020 (UTC) == Could you also make a &quot;Empire of Japan&quot; document? == Japan was also a highly notorious imperialist country, but it is surprisingly not well known to Westerners. Since you contribute a lot to the documents related to the Empire, I ask that you have some knowledge about the Japanese Empire. In particular, the Japanese Empire colonized Korea and other countries and engaged in a series of horrific exploitation and massacres. Could you please create the &quot;[[Empire of Japan]]&quot; document?--[[User:BluePink|BluePink]] ([[User talk:BluePink|talk]]) 02:07, 5 March 2020 (UTC) :Of course I'm not forcing you. You don't have to make it if you don't want to make it or if you don't have the relevant knowledge. But I'd appreciate it if you could make it.--[[User:BluePink|BluePink]] ([[User talk:BluePink|talk]]) 02:09, 5 March 2020 (UTC) ::I've been meaning to get around to that, but that's still a long ways off. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 02:15, 5 March 2020 (UTC) == Sorry to Hear You're Leaving == I come back and within a few days, you are leaving. Was it something I said? (/s) In all seriousness, I kind of get what you're saying. Thank you for doing so much for this community, and I'm sorry that we failed you. Ave atque vale, triumphator. [[User:RoninMacbeth|RoninMacbeth]] ([[User talk:RoninMacbeth|talk]]) 04:03, 11 March 2020 (UTC) :Bon voyage, DuceMoosolini! [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:41, 11 March 2020 (UTC) ::I really do hope that this LANCB turns out to be just as temporary as most of the others. If you ever come back, be it in a few days, weeks, months or years, I'll be pleased to see you again. And if you don't, you can at least take satisfaction in knowing that you left the wiki in a better state than you found it. Thank you very much for all the work you did. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 11:23, 11 March 2020 (UTC) == Partial return == Self-quarantine is quite boring now, so I'm returning to edit more articles. I'm not, however, going to participate in the Saloon or rejoin the Board. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 15:34, 24 March 2020 (UTC) == The Duce has returned == All hail, and I see you've gotten started on the Sudan page, ''nice''. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 17:08, 25 March 2020 (UTC) :{{Hug}} {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:33, 25 March 2020 (UTC) ::Delighted to see you again. I can assure you there's nothing toxic about the Board. Otherwise, I wouldn't have continued to be a part of it, Still, I'm very pleased that you'll be continuing to vastly improve our articles. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 16:41, 30 March 2020 (UTC) :::{{Hug}} Hey, welcome back! [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:41, 6 April 2020 (UTC) == Invitation to help build [[Draft:Indian right-wing glossary]] == Hello, I saw you contributed on an article about India, just thought you might be interested in participating in this new draft some folks are working on. Thanks! [[User:TapTheForwardAssist|TapTheForwardAssist]] ([[User talk:TapTheForwardAssist|talk]]) 04:44, 29 March 2020 (UTC) ==[[Far right]]== I already went to the talk page, and I didn't get any response to what I had posted. [[Special:Contributions/2600:1004:B065:1DA3:81C:5556:38F2:AB0A|2600:1004:B065:1DA3:81C:5556:38F2:AB0A]] ([[User talk:2600:1004:B065:1DA3:81C:5556:38F2:AB0A|talk]]) 15:45, 16 April 2020 (UTC) == Please stop reverting my edits == Hi [[ping|DuceMoosolini]]. I am a great fan of political corretness, so I wanna fix confusions that involve the wrong usage of political terms. I see that you revert my edits even I have talked with many admins on Discord and have written a statement in Talk session of that topic (I am aware you know that). Please stop reverting every edit I do at topics involving socialism and stop calling me a &quot;communist apologetic&quot; as that shows how you don't know what does it mean. Let me correct politically incorrect sections without your centrist bias. You even reverted my new rank like the &quot;authoritarians&quot; you cite. I invite you to be rational. - [[User:Comrade-yutyo]] == Israel/Palestine pages == I saw that you're intending to rewrite the Israel page, so I wanted to give you a heads-up. Do you remember the big fight regarding edits on the Israel and Palestine pages? See: [[:Talk:Israel/Archive1]], [[:Talk:Palestine]], and a slew of coop cases ([[:RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive37]], [[:RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive38]], [[:RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive42]], [[:RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive43]], [[:RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive46]], etc.) Two of the main combatants were [[:User:-Mona-]] and [[:User:Avengerofthe BoN]] (both have since been demopped but not banned, and are now inactive). It may not be possible to tread carefully enough on these topics without offending someonw. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 02:37, 10 June 2020 (UTC) == Communism == When are you up to start improving the article with me? &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 20:56, 16 June 2020 (UTC) :I highly recommend that you start on a draft. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 21:57, 16 June 2020 (UTC) ::Draw up a wishlist in the talk page. We’ll refine it into a to do list and gradually work through it. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 22:08, 16 June 2020 (UTC) == Hi == Hi, {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}}! {{User:Misc544/sig}} 20:32, 18 June 2020 (UTC) ==Nomination== {{BoardNotice}} — [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 22:26, 6 July 2020 (UTC) == Your delivery == [[File:Iconfascism.svg|100px|center]] {{User:GR/sig}} 21:54, 19 August 2020 (UTC) :Good shit. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:55, 19 August 2020 (UTC) ::And this one. [[File:Icon politics china.svg|100px|center]] {{User:GR/sig}} 10:05, 20 August 2020 (UTC) :::And by default I assumed it would be necessary to make an EU one. Don't thank me. [[File:Icon politics eu.svg|100px|center]] {{User:GR/sig}} 10:18, 20 August 2020 (UTC) ==== A gift ==== Behold, the holy pizza song. [[https://musescore.com/user/29674030/scores/5228714]] == Smith == Quick question, does [http://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/block&amp;page=User%3AFlight this unblock] imply that &quot;Smith&quot; is no longer banned here? If you aren't familiar with this user, he has previously edited under accounts which include; [[User:Krom]], [[User:ODS]], [[User:Aeschylus]], [[User:Tobias]], [[User:Debunking spiritualism]], ''et al'' (around 150 known socks here). The circumstances of his ban on this wiki were explained by myself at the time, in this [https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiInAction/comments/bqeyrw/oliver_d_smith_banned_from_rationalwiki/ Reddit post]. There are additional factors involved which I won't post here, but could go into more detail, on Discord, or via email if necessary, as private information, various lawsuits, and suppressed pages are involved. Some clarity on the current situation from your perspective would be appreciated. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 09:33, 14 September 2020 (UTC) : I've made a section to discuss this [[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation#Was_I_ever_banned_from_this_wiki.3F|here]]. As I note there your blocks are quite pointless because if I feel the need to create an important article like [[Spiteful mutant hypothesis]] I return and create it on another account (I've always used this wiki to add constructive articles). I never was the User:Debunking spiritualism. And I'm not aware of any legal matters relating to myself and this wiki. There never was any. I was sued for comments I made ''off'' the wiki and I won the case since the claimant discontinued knowing he would have lost the summary judgement. This has been public since May - my solicitor's firm made a statement on their Twitter account. All of your trolling and spreading misinformation about the lawsuit on Reddit didn't change the outcome. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:22, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yeah I've only seen a few of your articles deleted, those were for doxxing. Nevertheless, you did willfully introduce defamatory material onto multiple pages here, dox at least four editors, both on this site and on other venues such as [[Kiwi Farms]] and Reddit, create a great many impersonation and troll accounts to vandalise this wiki, destroy and shut down [[RationalWikiWiki]], and harrass various editors of the site including me for many months. When you were given sysop on past accounts, you misused it to delete articles, block innocent users, and abused page protection to win edit disputes resulting in getting into sysoprevoke on multiple occasions. You brought your personal drama with [[Mikemikev]] onto this site from [[Metapedia]] where you were formerly an administrator, and then did the same in your dispute with [[Abd]] who you impersonated on multiple occasions apparently for the fun of carrying on the drama. You also impersonated the subjects of articles you wrote and used those accounts to vandalise the wiki, getting them banned, and closing any avenue for the actual subject of the article to raise issues on the wiki itself. If somehow this hasn't got you banned yet I can bring up plenty of diffs from the suppression log et al to demonstrate that all this is true, and that you are a highly problematic user. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 13:59, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::: I've never doxxed or impersonated anyone. More vicious lies. No one believes a word you say - you're the [https://archive.is/3w3w9 same unhinged individual] libelling me across the internet as a child abuser and paedophile when you can't even get my middle name correct. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 14:18, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I told you before I'm happy to defend what I said in court if you want to do that. Sue me fuckwit. As for the rest, it's easily proven you doxed multiple people here, and [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&amp;type=suppress&amp;user=&amp;page=&amp;year=&amp;month=-1&amp;tagfilter=&amp;hide_patrol_log=1&amp;hide_tag_log=1 the logs] ain't going anywhere. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 14:27, 14 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:DuceMoosolini&diff=2226150</id> <title>User talk:DuceMoosolini</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:DuceMoosolini&diff=2226150"/> <updated>2020-09-14T13:59:09Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Smith */ <hr /> <div>{{Talkpage/Pibot |algo = old(30d) |archive = User talk:DuceMoosolini/Archive%(counter)d |maxarchivesize = 100K |search = yes |counter = 1 }} {{quotebox|&lt;center&gt;'''Before viewing or posting on this talkpage, please view the [[User:DuceMoosolini/Terms and Conditions|terms of service]].'''&lt;/center&gt;}} [[File:Pizza SPIN.gif|thumb|right|300px|It's pizza time!]] [[File:Nightingale.png|thumb|right|150px|[[Fun:The truth about Rationalwiki|They need to know the truth]].]] == 2019 moderator nomination == {{modnotice}} -- Regards, [[User:Cosmikdebris|Cosmikdebris]] ([[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]) 01:18, 2 November 2019 (UTC) == Mod rights == You should keep them until the election my man. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;i9&lt;/sup&gt;]] 04:11, 7 November 2019 (UTC) :Based on your advice, I have readded my mod rights. I'm not changing my signature back, though. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 04:50, 7 November 2019 (UTC) ::Don't worry about the sig - it's just that if you step down as mod now then the alternate needs to be modded until the election in a week which is an administrative pain in the ass. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;i9&lt;/sup&gt;]] 05:31, 7 November 2019 (UTC) == Mikey boy == Wanna take bets when he'll show up again? &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:56, 17 November 2019 (UTC) :He'll be back by the end of the month. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 14:13, 18 November 2019 (UTC) == Hey man... == ...Just though I would give you a shout-out as a thanks. My reintegration to the wiki after quite a long break ruffled a few feathers (we know who) despite me abiding by and assisting others in maintaining our community standards and blocking policies. You've been a pleasure to deal with and would have been happy to vote for you as mod again if you'd run. I'll buy you a drink one day. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;McWicked&lt;/sup&gt;]] 23:01, 25 November 2019 (UTC) :Thanks for the compliment! {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 23:25, 26 November 2019 (UTC) ::Meh, I hadn't been nice to anyone for awhile and my girlfriend was at work. So you'll have to do. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;McWicked&lt;/sup&gt;]] 23:39, 26 November 2019 (UTC) :::&quot;Our&quot; blocking policy has always been complete garbage. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 13:01, 27 November 2019 (UTC) == My apologies == But I`m in a feisty mood. Fite me. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:16, 27 November 2019 (UTC) == Drive on == &lt;youtube&gt;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAbgmXVaOc8&amp;has_verified=1&lt;/youtube&gt; This is a great song. Johnny Cash was a hero, rest in peace. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:17, 27 November 2019 (UTC) :Always love me a good 'Nam song. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 16:21, 27 November 2019 (UTC) == Neoliberalism == Tell me you're not a neolib. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:26, 1 December 2019 (UTC) :Based on what this wiki’s article says neoliberalism is, no, not really. Why? {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:30, 1 December 2019 (UTC) ::Neolibs are bastards. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:40, 1 December 2019 (UTC) == About the Ataturk box == Mustafa is still in your [[User:DuceMoosolini/userboxes|userbox list]]. You might want to kick him out.[[User:Summa Atheologica|Summa Atheologica]] ([[User talk:Summa Atheologica|talk]]) :Done. To be honest, I forgot I made that subpage. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 22:38, 1 December 2019 (UTC) ==Winter Board of Trustees meeting== We need to arrange a time for a Board of Trustees meeting. Would the morning of next Saturday (21 December) be good for you? [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 16:23, 14 December 2019 (UTC) :Just posted to the Group. {{User:DuceMoosolini/Xmasig}} 19:35, 14 December 2019 (UTC) ::And you suggested 14:00 UTC. Since I joined the Board, most of our meetings have been at 16:00 UTC. I'm happy to have the meeting two hours earlier (10:00 PM my time instead of midnight). But I think it would be unrealistic to ask you and LGM in the States to get up that early on a Saturday morning. Can we make it 16:00 UTC? [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 05:37, 16 December 2019 (UTC) :::16:00 UTC is 8AM my time. I d'wanna wake up even earlier. Zzzzz. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 07:44, 16 December 2019 (UTC) == Don't mess with my talk page. == I want to keep it blank because i have retired from this site and will never ever come back, Please respect my wishes. [[User:Jaydogg1994|Jaydogg1994]] ([[User talk:Jaydogg1994|talk]]) 00:47, 15 December 2019 (UTC) :Talk pages contain messages from other users and are thus community record. That’s why we have archives.{{User:DuceMoosolini/Xmasig}} 00:53, 15 December 2019 (UTC) == Are you fucking joking? == Really? look at the edit. [[User:AMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] ([[User talk:AMassiveGay|talk]]) 20:08, 15 December 2019 (UTC) :The edit's stupid, so reply saying so. But I see nothing so offensive as to warrant removal. {{User:DuceMoosolini/Xmasig}} 20:11, 15 December 2019 (UTC) ::nah just continued harassment of everyones favourite lolcow. [[User:AMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] ([[User talk:AMassiveGay|talk]]) 20:34, 15 December 2019 (UTC) :::[[wp:wp:RBI]] fwiw [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 10:55, 16 December 2019 (UTC) ==Could you please...?== Could you please update the [[Template:Ar|Arabic language template]] so that it's on just one line like all the others? Thank you [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 04:51, 20 December 2019 (UTC) :Gave it my best shot, hope nothing's messed up.{{User:DuceMoosolini/Xmasig}} 05:00, 20 December 2019 (UTC) ::It looks good [[Islam#See also|here]] to me. Thanks. You are a star. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 11:13, 20 December 2019 (UTC) == Muhammad == The [[Muhammad]] article could use a lot of improvement, and be less casually Islamophobic as well. I checked the talk page and it seems that people here were really shitty back in the day, including the fucking &quot;freeze peach&quot; crowd. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 23:46, 2 January 2020 (UTC) :I'm gonna mention that I did do a lot of work on that article just so that casual visitors to my talkpage don't think that I left ya hanging. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 23:07, 5 January 2020 (UTC) ::Good call lol. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 23:27, 5 January 2020 (UTC) == British Empire == Just so you know, I did not insert the large section you subsequently removed, that was someone else. I only fixed spelling and grammar in a few places. There must have been an edit collision, or I inadvertently edited an intermediate revision instead of the latest. I'm trying to be more careful about that. [[User:Dave Wise 2|Dave Wise 2]] ([[User talk:Dave Wise 2|talk]]) 20:25, 10 January 2020 (UTC) :My deletion didn't have anything to do with you. I just read the section and realized that it was a bunch of quotes that weren't cited at all and didn't say very much about the British Empire. I plan to expand the article later, assuming I'm not ''persona non grata'' by then. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 22:23, 10 January 2020 (UTC) == Discord == What's your Discord name and numbers? I wanna invite you to the [[User:Oxyaena/Corn|Secret Club]] but I need your account details (name and numbers) first. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 12:28, 30 January 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|User:Oxyaena}} DuceMoosolini#5758 {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 13:42, 30 January 2020 (UTC) == Your ableism == It appears that you have recently used &quot;r*tard&quot; in your edit summary. As a parent of a disabled child, I find this highly offensive. &lt;sup&gt;&amp;mdash; Unsigned, by: [[Special:Contributions/2620:18C:0:0:0:0:0:230|2620:18C:0:0:0:0:0:230]] / [[User talk:2620:18C:0:0:0:0:0:230|talk]] &lt;/sup&gt; :That doesn't make Duce a Nazi though. {{User:GrammarCommie/sig}} 14:50, 15 February 2020 (UTC) ::Yeah, as a disabled adult, I think Duce needs to improve on that. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:49, 15 February 2020 (UTC) :::I don't think it's anything intentional mind you, Duce is not a ''personally'' hateful and bigoted person, but no one's perfect. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:54, 15 February 2020 (UTC) ::::Okay, I'll knock that off. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 20:18, 15 February 2020 (UTC) == Could you also make a &quot;Empire of Japan&quot; document? == Japan was also a highly notorious imperialist country, but it is surprisingly not well known to Westerners. Since you contribute a lot to the documents related to the Empire, I ask that you have some knowledge about the Japanese Empire. In particular, the Japanese Empire colonized Korea and other countries and engaged in a series of horrific exploitation and massacres. Could you please create the &quot;[[Empire of Japan]]&quot; document?--[[User:BluePink|BluePink]] ([[User talk:BluePink|talk]]) 02:07, 5 March 2020 (UTC) :Of course I'm not forcing you. You don't have to make it if you don't want to make it or if you don't have the relevant knowledge. But I'd appreciate it if you could make it.--[[User:BluePink|BluePink]] ([[User talk:BluePink|talk]]) 02:09, 5 March 2020 (UTC) ::I've been meaning to get around to that, but that's still a long ways off. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 02:15, 5 March 2020 (UTC) == Sorry to Hear You're Leaving == I come back and within a few days, you are leaving. Was it something I said? (/s) In all seriousness, I kind of get what you're saying. Thank you for doing so much for this community, and I'm sorry that we failed you. Ave atque vale, triumphator. [[User:RoninMacbeth|RoninMacbeth]] ([[User talk:RoninMacbeth|talk]]) 04:03, 11 March 2020 (UTC) :Bon voyage, DuceMoosolini! [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:41, 11 March 2020 (UTC) ::I really do hope that this LANCB turns out to be just as temporary as most of the others. If you ever come back, be it in a few days, weeks, months or years, I'll be pleased to see you again. And if you don't, you can at least take satisfaction in knowing that you left the wiki in a better state than you found it. Thank you very much for all the work you did. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 11:23, 11 March 2020 (UTC) == Partial return == Self-quarantine is quite boring now, so I'm returning to edit more articles. I'm not, however, going to participate in the Saloon or rejoin the Board. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 15:34, 24 March 2020 (UTC) == The Duce has returned == All hail, and I see you've gotten started on the Sudan page, ''nice''. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 17:08, 25 March 2020 (UTC) :{{Hug}} {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:33, 25 March 2020 (UTC) ::Delighted to see you again. I can assure you there's nothing toxic about the Board. Otherwise, I wouldn't have continued to be a part of it, Still, I'm very pleased that you'll be continuing to vastly improve our articles. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 16:41, 30 March 2020 (UTC) :::{{Hug}} Hey, welcome back! [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:41, 6 April 2020 (UTC) == Invitation to help build [[Draft:Indian right-wing glossary]] == Hello, I saw you contributed on an article about India, just thought you might be interested in participating in this new draft some folks are working on. Thanks! [[User:TapTheForwardAssist|TapTheForwardAssist]] ([[User talk:TapTheForwardAssist|talk]]) 04:44, 29 March 2020 (UTC) ==[[Far right]]== I already went to the talk page, and I didn't get any response to what I had posted. [[Special:Contributions/2600:1004:B065:1DA3:81C:5556:38F2:AB0A|2600:1004:B065:1DA3:81C:5556:38F2:AB0A]] ([[User talk:2600:1004:B065:1DA3:81C:5556:38F2:AB0A|talk]]) 15:45, 16 April 2020 (UTC) == Please stop reverting my edits == Hi [[ping|DuceMoosolini]]. I am a great fan of political corretness, so I wanna fix confusions that involve the wrong usage of political terms. I see that you revert my edits even I have talked with many admins on Discord and have written a statement in Talk session of that topic (I am aware you know that). Please stop reverting every edit I do at topics involving socialism and stop calling me a &quot;communist apologetic&quot; as that shows how you don't know what does it mean. Let me correct politically incorrect sections without your centrist bias. You even reverted my new rank like the &quot;authoritarians&quot; you cite. I invite you to be rational. - [[User:Comrade-yutyo]] == Israel/Palestine pages == I saw that you're intending to rewrite the Israel page, so I wanted to give you a heads-up. Do you remember the big fight regarding edits on the Israel and Palestine pages? See: [[:Talk:Israel/Archive1]], [[:Talk:Palestine]], and a slew of coop cases ([[:RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive37]], [[:RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive38]], [[:RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive42]], [[:RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive43]], [[:RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive46]], etc.) Two of the main combatants were [[:User:-Mona-]] and [[:User:Avengerofthe BoN]] (both have since been demopped but not banned, and are now inactive). It may not be possible to tread carefully enough on these topics without offending someonw. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 02:37, 10 June 2020 (UTC) == Communism == When are you up to start improving the article with me? &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 20:56, 16 June 2020 (UTC) :I highly recommend that you start on a draft. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 21:57, 16 June 2020 (UTC) ::Draw up a wishlist in the talk page. We’ll refine it into a to do list and gradually work through it. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 22:08, 16 June 2020 (UTC) == Hi == Hi, {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}}! {{User:Misc544/sig}} 20:32, 18 June 2020 (UTC) ==Nomination== {{BoardNotice}} — [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 22:26, 6 July 2020 (UTC) == Your delivery == [[File:Iconfascism.svg|100px|center]] {{User:GR/sig}} 21:54, 19 August 2020 (UTC) :Good shit. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:55, 19 August 2020 (UTC) ::And this one. [[File:Icon politics china.svg|100px|center]] {{User:GR/sig}} 10:05, 20 August 2020 (UTC) :::And by default I assumed it would be necessary to make an EU one. Don't thank me. [[File:Icon politics eu.svg|100px|center]] {{User:GR/sig}} 10:18, 20 August 2020 (UTC) ==== A gift ==== Behold, the holy pizza song. [[https://musescore.com/user/29674030/scores/5228714]] == Smith == Quick question, does [http://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/block&amp;page=User%3AFlight this unblock] imply that &quot;Smith&quot; is no longer banned here? If you aren't familiar with this user, he has previously edited under accounts which include; [[User:Krom]], [[User:ODS]], [[User:Aeschylus]], [[User:Tobias]], [[User:Debunking spiritualism]], ''et al'' (around 150 known socks here). The circumstances of his ban on this wiki were explained by myself at the time, in this [https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiInAction/comments/bqeyrw/oliver_d_smith_banned_from_rationalwiki/ Reddit post]. There are additional factors involved which I won't post here, but could go into more detail, on Discord, or via email if necessary, as private information, various lawsuits, and suppressed pages are involved. Some clarity on the current situation from your perspective would be appreciated. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 09:33, 14 September 2020 (UTC) : I've made a section to discuss this [[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation#Was_I_ever_banned_from_this_wiki.3F|here]]. As I note there your blocks are quite pointless because if I feel the need to create an important article like [[Spiteful mutant hypothesis]] I return and create it on another account (I've always used this wiki to add constructive articles). I never was the User:Debunking spiritualism. And I'm not aware of any legal matters relating to myself and this wiki. There never was any. I was sued for comments I made ''off'' the wiki and I won the case since the claimant discontinued knowing he would have lost the summary judgement. This has been public since May - my solicitor's firm made a statement on their Twitter account. All of your trolling and spreading misinformation about the lawsuit on Reddit didn't change the outcome. [[User:Flight|Flight]] ([[User talk:Flight|talk]]) 13:22, 14 September 2020 (UTC) ::Yeah I've only seen a few of your articles deleted, those were for doxxing. Nevertheless, you did willfully introduce defamatory material onto multiple pages here, dox at least four editors, both on this site and on other venues such as [[Kiwi Farms]] and Reddit, create a great many impersonation and troll accounts to vandalise this wiki, destroy and shut down [[RationalWikiWiki]], and harrass various editors of the site including me for many months. When you were given sysop on past accounts, you misused it to delete articles, block innocent users, and abused page protection to win edit disputes resulting in getting into sysoprevoke on multiple occasions. You brought your personal drama with [[Mikemikev]] onto this site from [[Metapedia]] where you were formerly an administrator, and then did the same in your dispute with [[Abd]] who you impersonated on multiple occasions apparently for the fun of carrying on the drama. You also impersonated the subjects of articles you wrote and used those accounts to vandalise the wiki, getting them banned, and closing any avenue for the actual subject of the article to raise issues on the wiki itself. If somehow this hasn't got you banned yet I can bring up plenty of diffs from the suppression log et al to demonstrate that all this is true, and that you are a highly problematic user. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 13:59, 14 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:DuceMoosolini&diff=2226080</id> <title>User talk:DuceMoosolini</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:DuceMoosolini&diff=2226080"/> <updated>2020-09-14T09:33:54Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Smith */ new section <hr /> <div>{{Talkpage/Pibot |algo = old(30d) |archive = User talk:DuceMoosolini/Archive%(counter)d |maxarchivesize = 100K |search = yes |counter = 1 }} {{quotebox|&lt;center&gt;'''Before viewing or posting on this talkpage, please view the [[User:DuceMoosolini/Terms and Conditions|terms of service]].'''&lt;/center&gt;}} [[File:Pizza SPIN.gif|thumb|right|300px|It's pizza time!]] [[File:Nightingale.png|thumb|right|150px|[[Fun:The truth about Rationalwiki|They need to know the truth]].]] == 2019 moderator nomination == {{modnotice}} -- Regards, [[User:Cosmikdebris|Cosmikdebris]] ([[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]) 01:18, 2 November 2019 (UTC) == Mod rights == You should keep them until the election my man. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;i9&lt;/sup&gt;]] 04:11, 7 November 2019 (UTC) :Based on your advice, I have readded my mod rights. I'm not changing my signature back, though. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 04:50, 7 November 2019 (UTC) ::Don't worry about the sig - it's just that if you step down as mod now then the alternate needs to be modded until the election in a week which is an administrative pain in the ass. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;i9&lt;/sup&gt;]] 05:31, 7 November 2019 (UTC) == Mikey boy == Wanna take bets when he'll show up again? &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:56, 17 November 2019 (UTC) :He'll be back by the end of the month. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 14:13, 18 November 2019 (UTC) == Hey man... == ...Just though I would give you a shout-out as a thanks. My reintegration to the wiki after quite a long break ruffled a few feathers (we know who) despite me abiding by and assisting others in maintaining our community standards and blocking policies. You've been a pleasure to deal with and would have been happy to vote for you as mod again if you'd run. I'll buy you a drink one day. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;McWicked&lt;/sup&gt;]] 23:01, 25 November 2019 (UTC) :Thanks for the compliment! {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 23:25, 26 November 2019 (UTC) ::Meh, I hadn't been nice to anyone for awhile and my girlfriend was at work. So you'll have to do. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;McWicked&lt;/sup&gt;]] 23:39, 26 November 2019 (UTC) :::&quot;Our&quot; blocking policy has always been complete garbage. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 13:01, 27 November 2019 (UTC) == My apologies == But I`m in a feisty mood. Fite me. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:16, 27 November 2019 (UTC) == Drive on == &lt;youtube&gt;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAbgmXVaOc8&amp;has_verified=1&lt;/youtube&gt; This is a great song. Johnny Cash was a hero, rest in peace. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:17, 27 November 2019 (UTC) :Always love me a good 'Nam song. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 16:21, 27 November 2019 (UTC) == Neoliberalism == Tell me you're not a neolib. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:26, 1 December 2019 (UTC) :Based on what this wiki’s article says neoliberalism is, no, not really. Why? {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:30, 1 December 2019 (UTC) ::Neolibs are bastards. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:40, 1 December 2019 (UTC) == About the Ataturk box == Mustafa is still in your [[User:DuceMoosolini/userboxes|userbox list]]. You might want to kick him out.[[User:Summa Atheologica|Summa Atheologica]] ([[User talk:Summa Atheologica|talk]]) :Done. To be honest, I forgot I made that subpage. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 22:38, 1 December 2019 (UTC) ==Winter Board of Trustees meeting== We need to arrange a time for a Board of Trustees meeting. Would the morning of next Saturday (21 December) be good for you? [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 16:23, 14 December 2019 (UTC) :Just posted to the Group. {{User:DuceMoosolini/Xmasig}} 19:35, 14 December 2019 (UTC) ::And you suggested 14:00 UTC. Since I joined the Board, most of our meetings have been at 16:00 UTC. I'm happy to have the meeting two hours earlier (10:00 PM my time instead of midnight). But I think it would be unrealistic to ask you and LGM in the States to get up that early on a Saturday morning. Can we make it 16:00 UTC? [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 05:37, 16 December 2019 (UTC) :::16:00 UTC is 8AM my time. I d'wanna wake up even earlier. Zzzzz. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 07:44, 16 December 2019 (UTC) == Don't mess with my talk page. == I want to keep it blank because i have retired from this site and will never ever come back, Please respect my wishes. [[User:Jaydogg1994|Jaydogg1994]] ([[User talk:Jaydogg1994|talk]]) 00:47, 15 December 2019 (UTC) :Talk pages contain messages from other users and are thus community record. That’s why we have archives.{{User:DuceMoosolini/Xmasig}} 00:53, 15 December 2019 (UTC) == Are you fucking joking? == Really? look at the edit. [[User:AMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] ([[User talk:AMassiveGay|talk]]) 20:08, 15 December 2019 (UTC) :The edit's stupid, so reply saying so. But I see nothing so offensive as to warrant removal. {{User:DuceMoosolini/Xmasig}} 20:11, 15 December 2019 (UTC) ::nah just continued harassment of everyones favourite lolcow. [[User:AMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] ([[User talk:AMassiveGay|talk]]) 20:34, 15 December 2019 (UTC) :::[[wp:wp:RBI]] fwiw [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 10:55, 16 December 2019 (UTC) ==Could you please...?== Could you please update the [[Template:Ar|Arabic language template]] so that it's on just one line like all the others? Thank you [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 04:51, 20 December 2019 (UTC) :Gave it my best shot, hope nothing's messed up.{{User:DuceMoosolini/Xmasig}} 05:00, 20 December 2019 (UTC) ::It looks good [[Islam#See also|here]] to me. Thanks. You are a star. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 11:13, 20 December 2019 (UTC) == Muhammad == The [[Muhammad]] article could use a lot of improvement, and be less casually Islamophobic as well. I checked the talk page and it seems that people here were really shitty back in the day, including the fucking &quot;freeze peach&quot; crowd. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 23:46, 2 January 2020 (UTC) :I'm gonna mention that I did do a lot of work on that article just so that casual visitors to my talkpage don't think that I left ya hanging. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 23:07, 5 January 2020 (UTC) ::Good call lol. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 23:27, 5 January 2020 (UTC) == British Empire == Just so you know, I did not insert the large section you subsequently removed, that was someone else. I only fixed spelling and grammar in a few places. There must have been an edit collision, or I inadvertently edited an intermediate revision instead of the latest. I'm trying to be more careful about that. [[User:Dave Wise 2|Dave Wise 2]] ([[User talk:Dave Wise 2|talk]]) 20:25, 10 January 2020 (UTC) :My deletion didn't have anything to do with you. I just read the section and realized that it was a bunch of quotes that weren't cited at all and didn't say very much about the British Empire. I plan to expand the article later, assuming I'm not ''persona non grata'' by then. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 22:23, 10 January 2020 (UTC) == Discord == What's your Discord name and numbers? I wanna invite you to the [[User:Oxyaena/Corn|Secret Club]] but I need your account details (name and numbers) first. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 12:28, 30 January 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|User:Oxyaena}} DuceMoosolini#5758 {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 13:42, 30 January 2020 (UTC) == Your ableism == It appears that you have recently used &quot;r*tard&quot; in your edit summary. As a parent of a disabled child, I find this highly offensive. &lt;sup&gt;&amp;mdash; Unsigned, by: [[Special:Contributions/2620:18C:0:0:0:0:0:230|2620:18C:0:0:0:0:0:230]] / [[User talk:2620:18C:0:0:0:0:0:230|talk]] &lt;/sup&gt; :That doesn't make Duce a Nazi though. {{User:GrammarCommie/sig}} 14:50, 15 February 2020 (UTC) ::Yeah, as a disabled adult, I think Duce needs to improve on that. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:49, 15 February 2020 (UTC) :::I don't think it's anything intentional mind you, Duce is not a ''personally'' hateful and bigoted person, but no one's perfect. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:54, 15 February 2020 (UTC) ::::Okay, I'll knock that off. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 20:18, 15 February 2020 (UTC) == Could you also make a &quot;Empire of Japan&quot; document? == Japan was also a highly notorious imperialist country, but it is surprisingly not well known to Westerners. Since you contribute a lot to the documents related to the Empire, I ask that you have some knowledge about the Japanese Empire. In particular, the Japanese Empire colonized Korea and other countries and engaged in a series of horrific exploitation and massacres. Could you please create the &quot;[[Empire of Japan]]&quot; document?--[[User:BluePink|BluePink]] ([[User talk:BluePink|talk]]) 02:07, 5 March 2020 (UTC) :Of course I'm not forcing you. You don't have to make it if you don't want to make it or if you don't have the relevant knowledge. But I'd appreciate it if you could make it.--[[User:BluePink|BluePink]] ([[User talk:BluePink|talk]]) 02:09, 5 March 2020 (UTC) ::I've been meaning to get around to that, but that's still a long ways off. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 02:15, 5 March 2020 (UTC) == Sorry to Hear You're Leaving == I come back and within a few days, you are leaving. Was it something I said? (/s) In all seriousness, I kind of get what you're saying. Thank you for doing so much for this community, and I'm sorry that we failed you. Ave atque vale, triumphator. [[User:RoninMacbeth|RoninMacbeth]] ([[User talk:RoninMacbeth|talk]]) 04:03, 11 March 2020 (UTC) :Bon voyage, DuceMoosolini! [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:41, 11 March 2020 (UTC) ::I really do hope that this LANCB turns out to be just as temporary as most of the others. If you ever come back, be it in a few days, weeks, months or years, I'll be pleased to see you again. And if you don't, you can at least take satisfaction in knowing that you left the wiki in a better state than you found it. Thank you very much for all the work you did. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 11:23, 11 March 2020 (UTC) == Partial return == Self-quarantine is quite boring now, so I'm returning to edit more articles. I'm not, however, going to participate in the Saloon or rejoin the Board. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 15:34, 24 March 2020 (UTC) == The Duce has returned == All hail, and I see you've gotten started on the Sudan page, ''nice''. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 17:08, 25 March 2020 (UTC) :{{Hug}} {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:33, 25 March 2020 (UTC) ::Delighted to see you again. I can assure you there's nothing toxic about the Board. Otherwise, I wouldn't have continued to be a part of it, Still, I'm very pleased that you'll be continuing to vastly improve our articles. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 16:41, 30 March 2020 (UTC) :::{{Hug}} Hey, welcome back! [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:41, 6 April 2020 (UTC) == Invitation to help build [[Draft:Indian right-wing glossary]] == Hello, I saw you contributed on an article about India, just thought you might be interested in participating in this new draft some folks are working on. Thanks! [[User:TapTheForwardAssist|TapTheForwardAssist]] ([[User talk:TapTheForwardAssist|talk]]) 04:44, 29 March 2020 (UTC) ==[[Far right]]== I already went to the talk page, and I didn't get any response to what I had posted. [[Special:Contributions/2600:1004:B065:1DA3:81C:5556:38F2:AB0A|2600:1004:B065:1DA3:81C:5556:38F2:AB0A]] ([[User talk:2600:1004:B065:1DA3:81C:5556:38F2:AB0A|talk]]) 15:45, 16 April 2020 (UTC) == Please stop reverting my edits == Hi [[ping|DuceMoosolini]]. I am a great fan of political corretness, so I wanna fix confusions that involve the wrong usage of political terms. I see that you revert my edits even I have talked with many admins on Discord and have written a statement in Talk session of that topic (I am aware you know that). Please stop reverting every edit I do at topics involving socialism and stop calling me a &quot;communist apologetic&quot; as that shows how you don't know what does it mean. Let me correct politically incorrect sections without your centrist bias. You even reverted my new rank like the &quot;authoritarians&quot; you cite. I invite you to be rational. - [[User:Comrade-yutyo]] == Israel/Palestine pages == I saw that you're intending to rewrite the Israel page, so I wanted to give you a heads-up. Do you remember the big fight regarding edits on the Israel and Palestine pages? See: [[:Talk:Israel/Archive1]], [[:Talk:Palestine]], and a slew of coop cases ([[:RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive37]], [[:RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive38]], [[:RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive42]], [[:RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive43]], [[:RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive46]], etc.) Two of the main combatants were [[:User:-Mona-]] and [[:User:Avengerofthe BoN]] (both have since been demopped but not banned, and are now inactive). It may not be possible to tread carefully enough on these topics without offending someonw. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 02:37, 10 June 2020 (UTC) == Communism == When are you up to start improving the article with me? &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 20:56, 16 June 2020 (UTC) :I highly recommend that you start on a draft. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 21:57, 16 June 2020 (UTC) ::Draw up a wishlist in the talk page. We’ll refine it into a to do list and gradually work through it. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 22:08, 16 June 2020 (UTC) == Hi == Hi, {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}}! {{User:Misc544/sig}} 20:32, 18 June 2020 (UTC) ==Nomination== {{BoardNotice}} — [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 22:26, 6 July 2020 (UTC) == Your delivery == [[File:Iconfascism.svg|100px|center]] {{User:GR/sig}} 21:54, 19 August 2020 (UTC) :Good shit. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:55, 19 August 2020 (UTC) ::And this one. [[File:Icon politics china.svg|100px|center]] {{User:GR/sig}} 10:05, 20 August 2020 (UTC) :::And by default I assumed it would be necessary to make an EU one. Don't thank me. [[File:Icon politics eu.svg|100px|center]] {{User:GR/sig}} 10:18, 20 August 2020 (UTC) ==== A gift ==== Behold, the holy pizza song. [[https://musescore.com/user/29674030/scores/5228714]] == Smith == Quick question, does [http://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/block&amp;page=User%3AFlight this unblock] imply that &quot;Smith&quot; is no longer banned here? If you aren't familiar with this user, he has previously edited under accounts which include; [[User:Krom]], [[User:ODS]], [[User:Aeschylus]], [[User:Tobias]], [[User:Debunking spiritualism]], ''et al'' (around 150 known socks here). The circumstances of his ban on this wiki were explained by myself at the time, in this [https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiInAction/comments/bqeyrw/oliver_d_smith_banned_from_rationalwiki/ Reddit post]. There are additional factors involved which I won't post here, but could go into more detail, on Discord, or via email if necessary, as private information, various lawsuits, and suppressed pages are involved. Some clarity on the current situation from your perspective would be appreciated. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 09:33, 14 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Techpriest&diff=2225159</id> <title>User talk:Techpriest</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Techpriest&diff=2225159"/> <updated>2020-09-11T23:19:33Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Re: Discord */ <hr /> <div>{{User:Inferno Bot/config |archive = User talk:The Crow/Archive%(counter)d |algo = old(5d) |archiveheader = {{talk archive}} }} {{talkpage}} == Your archive bot == I roled it as a bot, however I did as you may have noticed remove the sysop role from it. Generally speaking it's recommended to avoid running adminbots unless absolutely necessary for short runs that require it to have admin tools. There are various reasons for this which are explained on Wikipedia, most of which apply here too. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 11:43, 25 June 2020 (UTC) :Alrighty, and yeah I get why on further thought. Just wasn't sure at first due to me not having a full understanding of how the bot worked at the time of writing. As long as it can edit + create pages it should be good though. Writing up docs for it now. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 11:48, 25 June 2020 (UTC) == Comments on your edits in [[Richard Stallman]] == [[Talk:Richard_Stallman#Proposing_some_changes]] [[Special:Contributions/87.228.21.50|87.228.21.50]] ([[User talk:87.228.21.50|talk]]) 07:54, 30 June 2020 (UTC) == Bitch == You’re a tech now. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 22:11, 29 August 2020 (UTC) :That's clearly an avian, dude. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 22:12, 29 August 2020 (UTC) :I'll inform you that I'm not a female dog, but rather a bird. Thanks for the tech! {{User:The Crow/sig}} 22:13, 29 August 2020 (UTC) ::Can you listen to the intransigence of this bitch saying that she isn't a bitch when she's clearly a dog-in-heat-bitch? I think we should haul this bitch to the bitchin coop to get some bitch-ass sense into this bitch. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:20, 29 August 2020 (UTC) :::Challenge accepted. Take me on then. Do your worst. (seriously tho, best not to clog up the coop, we're having a serious vote there now.) {{User:The Crow/sig}} 22:21, 29 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Alright, fine, you win...on a technicality I guess. Just remember though...to always be true to yourself and never hide who you are! You should have female-dog-in-heat pride! Say it out loud! 04:32, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :[[Wikipedia:File:Dancing baby.jpg|Ahem]]--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:11, 30 August 2020 (UTC) == Problem == The saloon bar has not been archived in a while.--[[User:Delibirda|Hedvigsen]][[User_Talk:Delibirda|&lt;sup&gt;Skreonk here&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:09, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :It is being archived though? [[User:Inferno Bot]] lists the archivals properly. What likely just happened is that a bunch of people created new threads lately. I know it's a high amount, but most of these are recent enough for them to not be archived. Archival is done by last signature date in a topic, not by total amount of topics. It should resolve itself. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 11:27, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::Okay. Oh, and I changed my signature!--[[User:Delibirda|Hedvigsen]][[User_Talk:Delibirda|&lt;sup&gt;Skreonk here&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:43, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::I like your new sig! {{User:The Crow/sig}} 11:44, 2 September 2020 (UTC) == Q == Can you make Inferno Bot run redirection fixes regularly? Once a day? Month?--[[User:Delibirda|Hedvigsen]][[User_Talk:Delibirda|&lt;sup&gt;Skreonk here&lt;/sup&gt;]] 16:17, 7 September 2020 (UTC) :No, the task technically errors each time due to certain redirections being [[Fun:Recursion|recursive]]/page locked and in some cases I have to manually intervene. Besides, redirection fixes aren't often a problem (double redirects usually only happen due to user renamed and the very occasionally poorly named page). Broken redirects are moreso a problem, but we don't get AfDs all that often. If you want it to be ran, feel free to nag me though if you think it's an issue. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 16:45, 7 September 2020 (UTC) == Re: Discord == I'll fix the Coop revision problems, at the point I'm actually removed from Sysoprevoke. Right now, I don't have access to the deletion interface, and can't do anything about it. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 23:15, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :Already resolved it earlier tonight. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 23:17, 11 September 2020 (UTC) ::Good job mate. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 23:19, 11 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Techpriest&diff=2225157</id> <title>User talk:Techpriest</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Techpriest&diff=2225157"/> <updated>2020-09-11T23:15:55Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Re: Discord */ new section <hr /> <div>{{User:Inferno Bot/config |archive = User talk:The Crow/Archive%(counter)d |algo = old(5d) |archiveheader = {{talk archive}} }} {{talkpage}} == Your archive bot == I roled it as a bot, however I did as you may have noticed remove the sysop role from it. Generally speaking it's recommended to avoid running adminbots unless absolutely necessary for short runs that require it to have admin tools. There are various reasons for this which are explained on Wikipedia, most of which apply here too. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 11:43, 25 June 2020 (UTC) :Alrighty, and yeah I get why on further thought. Just wasn't sure at first due to me not having a full understanding of how the bot worked at the time of writing. As long as it can edit + create pages it should be good though. Writing up docs for it now. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 11:48, 25 June 2020 (UTC) == Comments on your edits in [[Richard Stallman]] == [[Talk:Richard_Stallman#Proposing_some_changes]] [[Special:Contributions/87.228.21.50|87.228.21.50]] ([[User talk:87.228.21.50|talk]]) 07:54, 30 June 2020 (UTC) == Bitch == You’re a tech now. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 22:11, 29 August 2020 (UTC) :That's clearly an avian, dude. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 22:12, 29 August 2020 (UTC) :I'll inform you that I'm not a female dog, but rather a bird. Thanks for the tech! {{User:The Crow/sig}} 22:13, 29 August 2020 (UTC) ::Can you listen to the intransigence of this bitch saying that she isn't a bitch when she's clearly a dog-in-heat-bitch? I think we should haul this bitch to the bitchin coop to get some bitch-ass sense into this bitch. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:20, 29 August 2020 (UTC) :::Challenge accepted. Take me on then. Do your worst. (seriously tho, best not to clog up the coop, we're having a serious vote there now.) {{User:The Crow/sig}} 22:21, 29 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Alright, fine, you win...on a technicality I guess. Just remember though...to always be true to yourself and never hide who you are! You should have female-dog-in-heat pride! Say it out loud! 04:32, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :[[Wikipedia:File:Dancing baby.jpg|Ahem]]--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:11, 30 August 2020 (UTC) == Problem == The saloon bar has not been archived in a while.--[[User:Delibirda|Hedvigsen]][[User_Talk:Delibirda|&lt;sup&gt;Skreonk here&lt;/sup&gt;]] 10:09, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :It is being archived though? [[User:Inferno Bot]] lists the archivals properly. What likely just happened is that a bunch of people created new threads lately. I know it's a high amount, but most of these are recent enough for them to not be archived. Archival is done by last signature date in a topic, not by total amount of topics. It should resolve itself. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 11:27, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::Okay. Oh, and I changed my signature!--[[User:Delibirda|Hedvigsen]][[User_Talk:Delibirda|&lt;sup&gt;Skreonk here&lt;/sup&gt;]] 11:43, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::I like your new sig! {{User:The Crow/sig}} 11:44, 2 September 2020 (UTC) == Q == Can you make Inferno Bot run redirection fixes regularly? Once a day? Month?--[[User:Delibirda|Hedvigsen]][[User_Talk:Delibirda|&lt;sup&gt;Skreonk here&lt;/sup&gt;]] 16:17, 7 September 2020 (UTC) :No, the task technically errors each time due to certain redirections being [[Fun:Recursion|recursive]]/page locked and in some cases I have to manually intervene. Besides, redirection fixes aren't often a problem (double redirects usually only happen due to user renamed and the very occasionally poorly named page). Broken redirects are moreso a problem, but we don't get AfDs all that often. If you want it to be ran, feel free to nag me though if you think it's an issue. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 16:45, 7 September 2020 (UTC) == Re: Discord == I'll fix the Coop revision problems, at the point I'm actually removed from Sysoprevoke. Right now, I don't have access to the deletion interface, and can't do anything about it. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 23:15, 11 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Technical_support&diff=2225156</id> <title>RationalWiki:Technical support</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Technical_support&diff=2225156"/> <updated>2020-09-11T23:09:38Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* The Saloon Bar is apparently indexed */ <hr /> <div>&lt;center&gt;[[RationalWiki:Technical support/Archive_List|Archives for this page]]&lt;/center&gt; {{#tag:inputbox| bgcolor=transparent type=fulltext prefix=RationalWiki:Technical support break=yes width={{{width|60}}} searchbuttonlabel={{{label|Search the archives}}} }} {{shortcut|TECH|RW:TECH}} {{#ev:youtube|1Isjgc0oX0s|300|right|Fix it! Fix it! Fix it! Fix it! Fix it! Fix it! Fix it! Fix it! Fix it!}} __NEWSECTIONLINK__ '''Herein goeth anything regarding the technicalities of the wiki''' * Problems with accessing/editing the wiki * Problems with MediaWiki/HTML/CSS/Javascript/etc. * Questions about RW's configuration/extensions/servers/etc. * In short, anything tech-y goes here '''External links''' *Semi-frequent updates about RW's technical status are available at [http://rationalwiki.blogspot.com/ RationalWiki's blogspot]. *To view or suggest changes to configuration files and MediaWiki extensions, see [https://github.com/RationalWiki RationalWiki's GitHub]. '''Users''' *Users with [[RationalWiki:Techs|Tech]] rights: see [[Special:ListUsers/tech]] *Users with root on the servers: {{u|David Gerard}} (dgerard@gmail.com), {{u|Tmtoulouse}} and {{u|Tim Starling}}. '''If your IP is blocked from editing as an open proxy''' *You need to go to your provider about it. The lists we use are xbl.spamhaus.org, dnsbl.tornevall.org, all.s5h.net. If your IP is on one of these lists, then your provider has a serious problem they need to resolve. '''We cannot get your ISP out of the blacklist.''' == Subsection link (sticky) == What extension does Wikipedia use to get the subsection links next to each subsection title? {{User:FuzzyCatPotato/sig|}} 13:39, 24 July 2017 (UTC) :What r u talking about? [[User:ClickerClock|ClickerClock]] ([[User talk:ClickerClock|talk]]) 04:45, 10 September 2017 (UTC) ::I think Fuzzy means the &quot;§&quot; link that appears next to the headings, that links to the anchor for that heading. (once again, memorising the ASCII code for section signs comes in handy!) —[[User:Kazitor|Kazitor]], &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Kazitor|pending]]&lt;/sup&gt; 08:28, 16 November 2017 (UTC) {{ping|FuzzyCatPotato}}, yall happy now? {{main|Goat#What_to_do_with_a_Goat_and_a_stool}} {{wpl|Encyclopedia#Etymology}} {{wpa|Encyclopedia#Ancient times}} —[[User:ClickerClock|ClickerClock]] ([[User talk:ClickerClock|talk]]) 05:24, 17 November 2017 (UTC) :Not what I meant... I mean, that's really good :) But I recall there once being a § link next to the actual sections on a page. I'm not sure where it went. —[[User:Kazitor|Kazitor]], &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Kazitor|pending]]&lt;/sup&gt; 05:35, 17 November 2017 (UTC) ::I have no idea what you mean. —[[User:ClickerClock|ClickerClock]] ([[User talk:ClickerClock|talk]]) 05:44, 17 November 2017 (UTC) :::Like, on the page there is a heading that says &quot;Subsection link (sticky)&quot;. Next to it, either before or after the &quot;edit&quot; link, there was a single, grey &quot;§&quot; link that appended the appropriate anchor to the URL, e.g. [[#Subsection link (sticky)|§]]. —[[User:Kazitor|Kazitor]], &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Kazitor|pending]]&lt;/sup&gt; 06:13, 17 November 2017 (UTC) ::::Screenshot? —[[User:ClickerClock|ClickerClock]] ([[User talk:ClickerClock|talk]]) 12:34, 6 December 2017 (UTC) == Subsections playing up (sticky) == [[File:===Goat===.jpeg|thumb]] I've seen this a few times, it was [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Articles_for_deletion/Clive_Palmer&amp;oldid=1866668 this revision] and the wikitext seems normal. [[User:Christopher|Christopher]] ([[User talk:Christopher|talk]]) 09:33, 4 September 2017 (UTC) :The error occurs when a subsection is immediately before the end of a page. I'd bet that this is a result of the MediaWiki upgrade, but I've really no idea. {{User:FuzzyCatPotato/sig|}} 17:06, 4 September 2017 (UTC) ::And as [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Technical_support&amp;diff=1867130&amp;oldid=1867129 these] [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Technical_support&amp;diff=1867129&amp;oldid=1867019 edits] should make clear, this only occurs on certain pages. It could also be a template -- maybe something didn't close a div or a span and it's fucking with the subsections. {{User:FuzzyCatPotato/sig|}} 17:07, 4 September 2017 (UTC) :::This is not a result of the recent upgrade. This has been an issue for years.{{User:CheeseburgerFace/sig}} 17:09, 4 September 2017 (UTC) == Content dumps (sticky) == All of the internal links to backups on [[:RationalWiki:Content dumps]] fail. Also, what is the status of {{ping|David Gerard}}'s archive.org port? [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 02:15, 29 August 2018 (UTC) : yeah, they're all old. No, haven't pushed that forward at all, sorry - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 12:27, 29 August 2018 (UTC) ::{{ping|David Gerard}} reminder to do this -- might be convenient to do on same day you take elections live {{User:FuzzyCatPotato/sig|}} I made some dumps and uploaded them to archive.org. -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] ([[User talk:Tim Starling|talk]]) 12:07, 9 July 2019 (UTC) :Thank you, {{ping|Tim Starling}}! [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 17:54, 9 July 2019 (UTC) == 2019 software upgrade (sticky) == Idea: * Modernize Rationalwiki with things invented since 2017 ([[mediawikiwiki:MediaWiki 1.27|MediaWiki 1.27]]). Method: * Upgrade to [[mediawikiwiki:MediaWiki 1.31|MediaWiki 1.31]]. (not the latest version, but it is the latest LTS version). * Upgrade various existing extensions. * Install various extensions and skins bundled with the newer Mediawiki. (including the [[mediawikiwiki:Skin:Timeless|Timeless Skin]], and exensions; [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:CategoryTree|CategoryTree]], [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:CodeEditor|CodeEditor]], [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:MultimediaViewer|MultimediaViewer]], [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:Replace Text|Replace Text]], and [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:OATHAuth|OATHAuth]].) ::n.b. OATHAuth gives users the option of using two-factor authentication. Other things to do at the same time: * Install [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:Scribunto|Scribunto]] * Install [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:MobileFrontend|MobileFrontend]] (and the [[mediawikiwiki:Skin:Minerva Neue|Minerva Neue]] skin) * Install [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:TemplateStyles|TemplateStyles]] * Install [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:Thanks|Thanks]] * Install [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:WikiSEO|WikiSEO]] And * Setup a template to enable WikiSEO descriptors and an edit filter to avoid direct use. * Check that everything we already have won't break. Rationale: * Wikis, specifically Wikipedia, have several new features that weren't around when the site was last upgraded. The notable upgrades include Scribunto, a Lua template engine which is supposedly faster and easier to use (it allows for some advanced templates to be copied from the wikipedians who know how it works anyway). MobileFrontend and it's skin, which switches the sites reading view on mobile devices to a &quot;mobile compatible&quot; mode (users can switch back), it does make pages significantly easier to read on mobile devices. TemplateStyles allows per-page or per-template css styles, it uses a sanitized set of css rules to avoid security issues, this can be used to enable @media queries for templates to display differently on different devices. 'Thanks' is the extension which gives you the option to ping people for an edit, it is kinda optional but practically all other wikis have it. And finally, WikiSeo allows for a template which invisibly controls how a page displays when shared on social media, you can specify a description and image which, using semantic meta markup will be used by facebook/google/etc instead of a pretty random looking link. Comments, feedback, ideas and support/oppose of the proposed thingys welcome. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 15:54, 7 February 2019 (UTC) ===Nerd's comments=== I'm all for modernizing our infrastructure, as long as what we already have do not break. I really like the &quot;Thanks&quot; template. I first saw it on Wikipedia a couple years ago (when someone thanked me) and have used it occasionally ever since. The &quot;Timeless Skin&quot; looks like something the gods would approve. The Multimedia Viewer is something I almost always forget we don't have because it is so intuitive. Sorry if this is implied, but most of it is too technical for me. Will this upgrade include the visual edit gadget? I have been using it on Wikipedia for a quite some time now, and I love it! Finding the appropriate templates, citing sources, editing equations, changing photographs or illustrations. Amazing! While we are at it, does this proposed upgrade include the template that automatically converts units for you? It looks like this on Wikipedia. If you typed &lt;nowiki&gt;{{convert|1|mi|km}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;, the output would be 1 mile (1.6 km). I find this template very convenient. [[User:Nerd|Nerd]] ([[User talk:Nerd|talk]]) 18:42, 7 February 2019 (UTC) :The list I presented doesn't include Visual Editor. Although to be clear the main reason I left the Visual Editor thing out, is because it requires a very complicated additional setup so may be better suited as another task. However, the convert template would be made possible with Scribunto which I have listed up there, so that is included. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:26, 7 February 2019 (UTC) ::{{ping|Dysklyver}} I see. The visual editor can be a little resource-intensive. Thanks! When will this upgrade be implemented? [[User:Nerd|Nerd]] ([[User talk:Nerd|talk]]) 03:01, 8 February 2019 (UTC) :::I hope sometime this year, if everyone agrees and it gets organised properly. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 14:22, 8 February 2019 (UTC) ::::It's only February, but there is no harm in getting started early. How to get organize ourselves for it? [[User:Nerd|Nerd]] ([[User talk:Nerd|talk]]) 16:18, 8 February 2019 (UTC) :::::We need to finalize a set of things we want, get general agreement for it, and ideally test it all works on a test wiki, before then asking for it to be deployed, bearing in mind that Tmtoulouse/David Gerard are the operations people. The main thing is not to break the wiki, and the other thing is not to add things that will be there by default that everyone hates. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 16:37, 8 February 2019 (UTC) {{od}} How about setting up a sub-page, &quot;2019 upgrade&quot; for bullet point items, etc. for the implementation. – [[User:Dbz|Dbz]] ([[User talk:Dbz|talk]]) 00:30, 11 February 2019 (UTC) :I hate the &quot;visual edit gadget&quot;. &lt;span&gt;— '''[[User:Palaeonictis|&lt;font color=&quot;teal&quot;&gt;Palaeonictis&lt;/font&gt;]]''' [[User talk:Palaeonictis|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Fossil beds&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 10:20, 11 February 2019 (UTC) {{ping|Dysklyver}} Last time I check Trent Toulouse was a university professor. (David Gerard appears to be a programmer and book author.) This means we can potentially get this done before summer is out. [[User:Nerd|Nerd]] ([[User talk:Nerd|talk]]) 22:47, 26 February 2019 (UTC) :{{ping|Dysklyver}} Why hasn't this been done yet? What exactly is the problem? Damn. {{User:Thoughtcrime/sig}} 22:39, 15 May 2019 (UTC) ::A combination of laziness and procrastination. Somebody needs to figure out if certain existing extensions would work nicely with the proposed new software. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 23:31, 15 May 2019 (UTC) The visual editor is amazing for doing proper citations, which is a big problem on RW from what I can see (too many bare URLS). However I understand it is a large task. [[User:Debunky|Debunky]] ([[User talk:Debunky|talk]]) 02:03, 30 March 2020 (UTC) === The time approaches === I did the last MW upgrade, and I expect I'll do the next one too, some time in the near future. MW 1.27 is EOL so it needs to be done so that we can continue to receive security upgrades. I'd be comfortable installing the WMF-deployed extensions [[User:D|Dysklyver]] proposed above, specifically CategoryTree, CodeEditor, MultimediaViewer, OATHAuth, Scribunto, MobileFrontend, TemplateStyles, Thanks and the skin Timeless. I think VisualEditor is a reasonable stretch goal, if you want that. Instead of WikiSEO, which is unmaintained and not in Gerrit, I would suggest OpenGraphMeta, which is in Gerrit and is written by a well-known author, or PageImages, which is simple but WMF-deployed. The servers also need to be upgraded to Ubuntu 18.04. I'm thinking about the order of operations. Traditionally you do the OS upgrade first, so that you're more likely to have the dependencies needed by the new MW version. Linode's volume feature is now out of beta and available in Newark, which opens up some new possibilities for the kind and number of instances. If anyone wants to help, the number one thing that needs to be done is to test the RationalWiki-specific extensions against MW 1.31 and to update them as needed. They are all in [https://github.com/RationalWiki/ RationalWiki's GitHub], but nobody has ever submitted a pull request against them despite their comically bad state. Note that I moved Wigo3 to Gerrit, so the GitHub version is outdated and non-canonical. Wigo3 is the best of RationalWiki's extensions. -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] ([[User talk:Tim Starling|talk]]) 11:22, 7 July 2019 (UTC) :This is great. I won't specifically comment on the OS and how the load balancing works since I don't deal with that here, but as far as the extensions are concerned; :The rationale for WikiSEO was to generate descriptions for Google Search, and to get our articles to display previews on social media and chat applications, as a Wikipedia article would do if linked. Now it seems to me that [[:mediawikiwiki:Extension:OpenGraphMeta|OpenGraphMeta]] will generate previews for Facebook and presumably most social media sites, however it occurs to me that we could benefit from also installing [[:mediawikiwiki:Extension:Description2|Description2]] from the same author to get the Google Search descriptions which are currently rather lacklustre. :I am not personally bothered about VisualEditor either way, since from a technical viewpoint it needs that additional Parsoid service I think it would be an optional thing to do if you think that isn't too hard to setup and maintain. I don't know how the mob would consider it, I believe it is still generally a good extension but older editors hate using it, heh. :) :Otherwise, all good. :) {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 12:49, 7 July 2019 (UTC) ::Just think about how you want to spend my time, in priority order, and I'll think about how far down the list I want to go. What do you want more: VisualEditor or, say, analytics? Apparently [[Robert Lazar]] is the most popular article on this wiki. Is that something you want to know? Does that make you want to improve it? -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] ([[User talk:Tim Starling|talk]]) 13:52, 7 July 2019 (UTC) :::Most important things on this list would be MobileFrontend and it's associated skin. And in my personal opinion analytics is better than the Visual Editor. The rest is good to have but also easy-ish to install so not a huge concern I suppose. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 20:17, 7 July 2019 (UTC) ::::Hell no to Visual Editor. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;teal&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 22:46, 7 July 2019 (UTC) ::::I'm with Oxyaena on that. &amp;nbsp; — &lt;font size=&quot;4&quot;&gt;[[User:Jeff G.|Jeff]] [[User:Jeff G./talk|G. ツ]]&lt;/font&gt; 12:19, 9 July 2019 (UTC) :I think the main thing we can be said to ''need'' is something that works on mobile without looking like a web page for ants. I realise this is not a tiny thing of course - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 14:37, 8 July 2019 (UTC) :I'm going to second [[User:Dysklyver|Dysklyver]] and [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] on prioritizing MobileFrontend. The main reason I created an account here (which I just now finally got around to doing) is to request a proper mobile view. I'm not picky. I just want *something*! (I don't particularly care either way about any of the other MediaWiki extensions under discussion.) [[User:TMqWQfNP9zx2FbrA|TMqWQfNP9zx2FbrA]] ([[User talk:TMqWQfNP9zx2FbrA|talk]]) 11:59, 2 November 2019 (UTC) == Making time == Evidently the time for upgrading MediaWiki was not approaching as rapidly as I anticipated. I haven't had much free time, so I was considering just taking annual leave. I spoke to my manager at WMF about this, and he said that upgrading MediaWiki at RationalWiki could be a [[mw:Core Platform Team/Development Practices/10% time|10% time]] project, i.e. he would support me doing it during work time. The project would start in early February after our all staff meeting, and I'd have about one day a week to work on it. -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] ([[User talk:Tim Starling|talk]]) 23:41, 14 January 2020 (UTC) :That sounds nice that you'll get paid for it! [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 23:48, 14 January 2020 (UTC) :: nice to hear [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 12:14, 28 January 2020 (UTC) == Trying to create custom CSS getting caught by the &quot;Blackhat SEO Spammer&quot; filter == I tried adding custom CSS for myself at [[User:Sangv/common.css]] because the default MediaWiki theme and all the extra available themes give me headaches due to being black text on a white background. When I tried to submit the page, it was flagged with &quot;Blackhat SEO Spammer&quot;. I guess part of the issue here might be that I literally just signed up and immediately went to go and create that page? [[User:Sangv|Sangv]] ([[User talk:Sangv|talk]]) 05:21, 2 February 2020 (UTC) :I'm so sad no one helped you. All you needed was to keep posting a few times and get autopatrolled. [[User:ikanreed|ikanreed]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;u&gt;[[user_talk:ikanreed|🐐Bleat at me]]&lt;/u&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 17:53, 5 March 2020 (UTC) == Drafts in search results == Just got a draft I was working on coming up at the top of a Google search results list. Do we want drafts to appear in Google, based on the fact that they may not be reliable? I know it's possible to exclude pages from search results but is it technically possible to do this automatically for all drafts? I'm not demanding you fix this, I just thought I'd flag it up. --[[User:Annanoon|Annanoon]] ([[User talk:Annanoon|talk]]) 13:10, 5 March 2020 (UTC) :I agree that that would be a good idea. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 17:46, 5 March 2020 (UTC) ::Just checked, and my drafts show up in Google too. This should definitely be disabled with the potential liabilities it poses. [[User:Debunky|Debunky]] ([[User talk:Debunky|talk]]) 08:58, 28 March 2020 (UTC) :::Someone with access to the backend would need to insert no-robots/no-indexing code into draft page code. I think that limits this to small number people who can do this. Am I right {{ping|Oxyaena}}? [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 17:05, 28 March 2020 (UTC) ::::Only {{ping|David Gerard}} or {{ping|Tim Starling}} can do this, sorry. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 19:22, 28 March 2020 (UTC) You could simply put the noindex function in the draft template and add that template to every draft. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 19:26, 28 March 2020 (UTC) :Thanks, EK. Done. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:30, 4 April 2020 (UTC) == How will side by side work in mobile format? == Considering RW will eventually shift to a responsive mobile layout, how will side by side templates display? It almost seems like the format needs to change to a red box / green box approach, so that they will display on top of each other in clear form rather than shrinking to SBS on mobile. If they were just stacked without colour boxes it would be hard to see which is a response and which is a claim/original quote. [[User:Debunky|Debunky]] ([[User talk:Debunky|talk]]) 00:06, 4 April 2020 (UTC) == SEO spammer edit filter == [[User:Breeze]] got blocked by the SEO editfilter. Just reporting this here as I saw it on recent changes and they're blocked so of course they can't report it. We really should have something like Wikipedia's [[w:Template:Unblock]]. --[[Special:Contributions/47.146.63.87|47.146.63.87]] ([[User talk:47.146.63.87|talk]]) 21:24, 17 April 2020 (UTC) :I have removed the block. There actually is an unblock command on RationalWiki ([[:Special:Unblock]]). {{unsig|Bongolian}} ::Don't take this personally but I know my way around MediaWiki. Follow the link. That template is for placing on your talk page if you're blocked to ping admins for an unblock request. Every stock MediaWiki wiki has Special:Unblock because it's part of core. --[[Special:Contributions/47.146.63.87|47.146.63.87]] ([[User talk:47.146.63.87|talk]]) 06:47, 18 April 2020 (UTC) :::OK. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:21, 18 April 2020 (UTC) == Redirection404 == I'm not sure this is an issue but say somebody types out https://rationalwiki.org/blahblahblah instead of https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/blahblahblah it ends up sending the user to a blank 404 page rather than redirecting to a 404 page within the wiki? Is there anyway it could instead send it to a useful page that encourages them to search within RW? Maybe the home or search page? For example take a look at how Wikipedia handles it: https://en.wikipedia.org/blahblahblahblah they are encouraging the user to search in the wiki instead. --[[User:Debunky|Debunky]] ([[User talk:Debunky|talk]]) 08:08, 19 April 2020 (UTC) :this should be possible ye, I'll look into it. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 12:40, 19 April 2020 (UTC) == Quotebox issue == Maybe somebody could update the Quotebox template? It appears to always extend out under the navigation template on pages. For example take a look at [[Nick Fuentes]] and you can see the blue box is actually extended full width under the sidebar, however the text remains placed ok. --[[User:Debunky|Debunky]] ([[User talk:Debunky|talk]]) 16:16, 23 April 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|Debunky}} The behavior of the quotebox template can be controlled by using the &lt;code&gt;width&lt;/code&gt; parameter. In the [[Nick Fuentes]] article, I updated the first two quote boxes to specify &lt;code&gt;width=70%&lt;/code&gt; so that these boxes do not extend under the navigation boxes. This isn't a perfect solution but it works without jacking around with the template itself. [[User:Cosmikdebris|Cosmikdebris]] ([[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]) 14:04, 25 April 2020 (UTC) ::Thanks cosmikdebris. Of course when things go mobile optimized this may not be ideal. Hopefully we can get some new standardized templates similar to Wikipedia's to ensure consistency. --[[User:Debunky|Debunky]] ([[User talk:Debunky|talk]]) 00:15, 26 April 2020 (UTC) == &quot;Phantom of Liberty&quot; filter == Several users have been blocked as false positives by this filter, I recommend disabling it until it can be fixed. {{User:GrammarCommie/sig}} 15:57, 24 April 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|Bongolian}} {{ping|GrammarCommie}} I disabled this filter pending a review. [[User:Cosmikdebris|Cosmikdebris]] ([[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]) 16:31, 24 April 2020 (UTC) ::OK [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 17:31, 24 April 2020 (UTC) :::I removed a 'not' (!). That should fix it. Have a look and reactivate if you think it's OK. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:28, 24 April 2020 (UTC) ::::OK, I re-enabled it and will keep a watch. [[User:Cosmikdebris|Cosmikdebris]] ([[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]) 19:58, 24 April 2020 (UTC) :::::i think it was just a little wide to include all contents rather than just added contents. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 21:29, 24 April 2020 (UTC) == It got fixed. == Who woke up the Elder One {{ping|David Gerard}}? &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 18:30, 2 May 2020 (UTC) :duce pinged me. I won't go into details, but someone was showing their deep appreciation for the site - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 10:06, 3 May 2020 (UTC) == How do I force the capturebot to screengrab CP? == That would be useful to know.{{User:Summa Atheologica/sig}} 17:56, 22 May 2020 (UTC) :There used to be a functioning capturebot that would do this sort of thing automatically. You're basically on your own, but we have instructions for the manual methods here: [[:Help:Screenshots]]. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:04, 23 May 2020 (UTC) == SEO Spammer False Positive == Hello, I'm trying to create a page in User:DamnYouDaria/sandbox/Gavin Seim as I want to work on a page about libertarian wing-nut Gavin Seim. I was creating a rough draft and got the error message :Warning: This action has been automatically identified as harmful and you will be blocked from editing you if you click submit. :Your action matched the edit filter: Blackhat SEO Spammer :Unconstructive edits such as spam are unwelcome, however there are occasional false positives, if this is a false positive, please report it at RationalWiki:Technical support. Do not try to make the edit again even if making minor changes, as you will be blocked and then unable to report the error. : If you believe this edit to be constructive, please contact an administrator. If you ignore this notice and get blocked, you should let us know on your talkpage.&quot; However, since it doesn't say what admin I should contact or where I can contact an admin and since I was directed here, I wanted to post here about this error message. --[[User:DamnYouDaria|DamnYouDaria]] ([[User talk:DamnYouDaria|talk]]) 04:29, 29 May 2020 (UTC) ::{{ping|DamnYouDaria}}, I've autopatrolled you. That should solve the problem. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:52, 29 May 2020 (UTC) == So my IP is blocked. == I just tried to edit by IP by accident and found it was blocked. The last time I did an IP edit must have been years ago and with a different provider. I get ''&quot;Your IP address is listed as an open proxy in the DNSBL used by RationalWiki. 08:25, 1 June 2020 and will end at infinite. You may contact DNSBL&quot;'' I use a my mobile data plan in Spain So if that IP is blocked I'm sure it won't be the only one. It's in [https://db-ip.com/all/31.4.247 this range]. But I guess that's a mistake unless someone can tell me what's up. It's not really a problem for me but it could be for others.[[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|&lt;sup&gt;&quot;Life is short and (insert adjective)&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:38, 1 June 2020 (UTC) :It's likely because someone using that IP before it was assigned to you had a virus infection, causing it to send spam (assuming your own device doesn't have a virus). [[Special:Contributions/71.208.115.25|71.208.115.25]] ([[User talk:71.208.115.25|talk]]) 17:51, 10 June 2020 (UTC) == Can't open [[Talk:Terrorism]] == Subject. I get delightful PHP errors and I can't even open its editor to see what could be causing them. {{User:Zero/Signature}} 12:55, 3 June 2020 (UTC) :It works for me. Anyone else? [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 16:47, 3 June 2020 (UTC) ::Dunno if it was causing the problem but I've removed some stuff from the first para. Is OK now? [[User:Scream!!|Scream!!]] ([[User talk:Scream!!|talk]]) 17:02, 3 June 2020 (UTC) == SEO Spammer false positive #2 == I've been trying to create a page on DRM and Silicons valleys war on software ownership with the public denies, it has huge political implications if every device is spying on us (our phones, windows 10, etc). It's technology that is building a turnkey dictatorship before our eyes because we didn't get any property rights to own software. I got an error message below... mon333. :Warning: This action has been automatically identified as harmful and you will be blocked from editing you if you click submit. :Your action matched the edit filter: Blackhat SEO Spammer :Unconstructive edits such as spam are unwelcome, however there are occasional false positives, if this is a false positive, please report it at RationalWiki:Technical support. Do not try :to make the edit again even if making minor changes, as you will be blocked and then unable to report the error. :If you believe this edit to be constructive, please contact an administrator. If you ignore this notice and get blocked, you should let us know on your talkpage.&quot; &lt;sup&gt;&amp;mdash; Unsigned, by: [[User:Mon333|Mon333]] / [[User talk:Mon333|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Mon333|contribs]] &lt;/sup&gt; :try again now. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 16:13, 10 June 2020 (UTC) :You've been autopatrolled and should be able to create the page now. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 17:29, 10 June 2020 (UTC) == Automated spam filter blocking page creation == I attempted to make a new page and the edit was blocked by the spam filter. From reading previous threads, I think that autopatrolling me should fix the issue. [[User:CausticAnalysis|CausticAnalysis]] ([[User talk:CausticAnalysis|talk]]) 18:06, 12 June 2020 (UTC) :Having tried a couple of other edits, that's almost definitely the issue. Would an admin be able to autopatrol me? [[User:CausticAnalysis|CausticAnalysis]] ([[User talk:CausticAnalysis|talk]]) 18:22, 12 June 2020 (UTC) ::I added you to autopatrolled, although it's no solution to dealing with a bloated, incoherent, and likely broken edit filter. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 18:29, 12 June 2020 (UTC) :::Eh, this could be worked on I'm seeing a few avoidable false positives. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:46, 18 June 2020 (UTC) == 503 and database failure == Is there something going on with the database? I keep getting errors off and on when I try to use the site. {{User:GrammarCommie/sig}} 23:38, 15 June 2020 (UTC) ::There's a DDOS happening attacking the USA. [[User:Scream!!|Scream!!]] ([[User talk:Scream!!|talk]]) 23:49, 15 June 2020 (UTC) :::I'm curious, is it targeting us specifically?-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 23:50, 15 June 2020 (UTC) ::::Apparently it's asia (all of it?) attacking the USA: [https://popculture.com/trending/news/ddos-attack-major-united-states/ Only report I can find at speed] [[User:Scream!!|Scream!!]] ([[User talk:Scream!!|talk]]) 23:53, 15 June 2020 (UTC) The above report is probably unrelated, but the site was down for an hour just now due to &quot;emergency maintenance&quot; by Linode. db1 failed to come back up after Linode rebooted the host. After an hour, I initiated a reboot via the Linode dashboard, which worked. -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] ([[User talk:Tim Starling|talk]]) 03:18, 16 June 2020 (UTC) :There is an ongoing issue which I'm trying to resolve. -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] ([[User talk:Tim Starling|talk]]) 03:43, 16 June 2020 (UTC) :Linode reports that there was a DoS attack against another instance on the same physical host. This is now resolved. I started a backup restoration, and it's only 23% done after almost 2 hours, so I was a long way from bringing the site up that way. I might do a test restore of an SQL dump, that's probably faster than using Linode's backup system.- -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] ([[User talk:Tim Starling|talk]]) 05:22, 16 June 2020 (UTC) ::We also suffered a really obnoxious wiki crawler that was hammering the system (looks like an amateur), and a less obnoxious crawler that was still running at a few hits per second (PetalBot, run by Huawei) - both are blocked in Varnish now - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 11:44, 16 June 2020 (UTC) == &lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt; == That wiki markup has some serious issues, I tried using an online latex editor and I still get errors. {{User:Godless_Raven/sig}} 14:34, 21 June 2020 (UTC) :the math extension has been mostly broken for a long time now. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 14:21, 22 June 2020 (UTC) ::Any updates on this matter? {{User:GR/sig}} 19:00, 10 July 2020 (UTC) :::Not unless the board sends Tim more cookies. {{User:Ze/?}} 19:28, 10 July 2020 (UTC) ::::cringe. {{User:GR/sig}} 10:35, 11 July 2020 (UTC) :::::Update: I tested a little bit with the math function. I discovered that: &lt;pre&gt; &lt;math&gt;2B=B&lt;/math&gt; &lt;math&gt;3B=B&lt;/math&gt; &lt;/pre&gt; yields: &lt;math&gt;2B=B&lt;/math&gt; &lt;math&gt;3B=B&lt;/math&gt; And my suspicion is that the server/database whatever knows how to render previously made latex png's (or saved these and just re-renders them whenever called) while it blocks any effort of making new PNG conversions. Not sure if this helps, but it surely can't be syntax related (if 2B=B works, why shouldn't 3B=B? silly). {{User:GR/sig}} 14:33, 13 August 2020 (UTC) == Law Enforcement Requests == I’m not going to get into specifics for obvious reasons, but since this site doesn’t have checkuser, if I suspect a specific user on this wiki is stalking me, would this wiki be able to cooperate with law enforcement in any way to identify the person beyond his anonymous wiki handle? [[Special:Contributions/2607:FB90:930F:3E96:1D45:4829:C33B:EAC0|2607:FB90:930F:3E96:1D45:4829:C33B:EAC0]] ([[User talk:2607:FB90:930F:3E96:1D45:4829:C33B:EAC0|talk]]) 03:22, 22 June 2020 (UTC) :Have you read this? https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Legal_FAQ {{User:Godless_Raven/sig}} 03:28, 22 June 2020 (UTC) :this wiki doesn't store identity information so no. Certain individual users probably could help but aren't obliged to do so. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 14:13, 22 June 2020 (UTC) == Update Toolbar == Hey, can someone update [[MediaWiki:Edittools]] to change the PiBot template to the one used by [[User:Inferno Bot]]? Just replace TalkPage/PiBot with User:InfernoBot/config . The result should look a bit like this (copy from inbetween the nowiki tags in source mode if you just want to copypaste, there are hidden newline characters that need to be copied into the Edittools page): &lt;nowiki&gt;{{User:Inferno Bot/config&amp;#10;|algo=old(30d)&amp;#10;|archive={{subst:NAMESPACE}}:{{subst:PAGENAME}}/Archive%(counter)d&amp;#10;|maxarchivesize=100K&amp;#10;|search=yes&amp;#10;}}&lt;/nowiki&gt; Asking since PiBot is dead. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:27, 3 July 2020 (UTC) :I could but that wouldn't update all the pages already using the pibot code and would make it inconsistent, the options would be to either usurp the pibot name and replace it with your bot, or to simply continue using it as is but recognising the pibot template, which is what kazitor always did I think. {{User:Ze/?}} 20:51, 3 July 2020 (UTC) ==Request for name change due to off-wiki abuse== Can a user with tech rights please change my username to Johns. My username John66 is repeatedly spammed around multiple forums and websites by [[Abd Lomax]] with misinformation spread about my account, this same insane old man and someone associated with him (his friend [[mikemikev]]?) has also been spamming me with abusive emails a few times this week. I have not had a name change before, but I would only request it once. Thanks [[User:John66|John66]] ([[User talk:John66|talk]]) 10:39, 9 July 2020 (UTC) :You aren't the only one lol, tho I have personally found &quot;[https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiInAction/comments/bqeyrw/oliver_d_smith_banned_from_rationalwiki/?utm_medium=android_app&amp;utm_source=share Oliver D. Smith]&quot; to be more abusive to me personally than the others you mentioned they are all a big problem and you should consider setting up email filters because Mikemikev and Smith particularly are known to send death/rape threats etc for months using throwaway emails, at least that's what they did to me. I have renamed your account as you asked, there are edit filters here which prevent these people directly mentioning their favourite targets (such as you) to some extent, it should be fine. Generally DNFTT applies to the whole circus of them. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:04, 9 July 2020 (UTC) :: Thanks for the name change. Smith/Mikemikev/Abd Lomax all have legit email addresses on public record and Smith and Mikemikev have denied sending these emails. I have never spoken to Lomax but he seems to write a lot of bad things about RationalWiki users. The behavior is odd. In regard to these emails when you try and reply to some of them they have already been deleted, so these are are throwaway emails as you say that seem to be created and deleted in a single day. I started to think it might be Lomax trying to frame the other two, then I thought no, what if it is somebody else associated with Lomax or somebody who hates all them of them or vise versa? Nathan Larson is a new name I came across, he is associated with Lomax. I don't know if he is behind the rape emails but look that guy up he's been in prison for sending people threats. He may qualify for an article on this website. Do you know the history of the Lomax/Smith/Mikemikev feud? It seems to have been going on for more than 3 years. Why do all these guys hate each other so much and why do other people seem to get innocently sucked into it? Hopefully it will end soon. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 12:01, 9 July 2020 (UTC) :::I mean Oliver basically admitted it was him sending some of the ones I got by sending me weird DMs on twitter from his account afterwards, and Mikemikev is incredibly obvious and used to hangout on my Discord server and Stormfront and say the same things so I know he was personally involved too. Lomax has ironically always been fine to me but others are less than pleased with his verbose writings. :::The Nathan Larson guy is new but he floated in because he's a pedophile and the other people might be or not but were certainly talking about it and that attracted his attention, Larson then proceeded to get involved on telegram and be a nuisance by posting child pornography and claiming this was somehow ok due to free speech, he has a Wikipedia page but nothing here yet. :::The dispute itself goes way back to when Oliver and Mikemikev were both admins on [[Metapedia]] and had a dispute, which was followed by 7 years of drama across multiple websites, but mostly Kiwifarms (which Oliver temporarily shut down) Wikipedia (where both Oliver and Mikemikev are banned for massive sockpuppetry) RationalWikiWiki (Which Oliver got shut down) and RationalWiki (where both are banned) Abd somehow got involved in the affair when they were on Wikipedia and Oliver got him banned from there, after which he followed Oliver here and was banned too, and then this went off onto reddit and other places before having a stroke recently and becoming largely inactive. :::RationalWiki is involved mainly because it's Olivers favorite place to write &quot;hit peices&quot; on people he doesn't like, most of whom are far right cranks but you got to watch out because he will target anyone, he's got no filter. Mikemikev is just insane and thinks we are all evil Jews, he has no angle except uncontrolled hatred. Lomax just writes thousands of pages of content about this stuff, literally book length write ups, its not clear why exactly but I think he just likes doing it. :::If you get emails that in any way describe you as a Jewish cultural Marxist traitor to Western civilisation and the white race, that's probably Mikemikev, if it's more focused then it's probably Oliver, and if it's over 5000 words long then it's probably Abd. But really the distinction is pretty irrelevant at this point since they all probably hate your guts, Oliver has tried to dox you before, Mikemikev thinks you are Jewish, and Abd thinks you are a sock account of an evil mastermind soooo you are screwed with all of them. {{User:Ze/?}} 13:48, 9 July 2020 (UTC) :::: Thanks for the history lesson on these 3 stooges. I will remove my email address and delete it, that's the best way I think, I don't need any off-site communication from now on with anyone. I am tired of these guys drama. I suggested a ban list for this website to name and shame banned users but it was not allowed. Its get boring reading these guys nonsense. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 16:45, 9 July 2020 (UTC) == Template request == Hi, I wanted to check if anyone could copy the template {{wpl|Template:Su}} from WP? It requires the {{wpl|Module:Su}} from {{wpl|Wikipedia:Lua}}. {{User:GR/sig}} 00:41, 19 July 2020 (UTC) :Probably not a good idea because of the warning in the Template:Su documentation, &quot;these templates use all kinds of hacky tricks…&quot; [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 03:12, 19 July 2020 (UTC) == Images not working == [[File:Social_Democrats_(Denmark)_logo.svg]] does not work in here; it works in my wikipedia sandbox (same code). This applies to multiple images, too. This isn't an exception. Any resolution? {{User:GR/sig}} 13:49, 23 July 2020 (UTC) :If I'm following, you want to interwiki embed an image from Wikipedia. You can interwiki link the image, but so far as I'm aware you can't interwiki embed and the software will only check Wikimedia Commons, not Wikipedia, for images if no such file name exists on this site. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 16:04, 23 July 2020 (UTC) ::Oh that makes sense. Thank you. {{User:GR/sig}} 16:47, 23 July 2020 (UTC) == Trump's Page == The [[Donald_Trump|image]] seems to be broken or something? [[User:Gunther1987|Gunther1987]] ([[User talk:Gunther1987|talk]]) 14:23, 29 July 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|Gunther1987}} Fixed. Sometimes you need to re-render the page to fix certain images. All I did was click &quot;edit&quot; and submit, not changing anything. {{User:GR/sig}} 14:30, 29 July 2020 (UTC) ::You can also add ?action=purge to the end of a page, that makes MediaWiki re-render the page as well. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 18:32, 29 July 2020 (UTC) == Yankeestan == Worth adding to the edit filter? Or is it better dealing with this particular vandal the old-fashioned way?-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 01:05, 31 July 2020 (UTC) :This BoN seems to be figuring out lame ways to vandalize pages as it goes. I'm not opposed to adding &quot;Yankeestan&quot; to the edit filter, but it's not going to stop then from being a nuisance. With him either having a VPN or using proxies, I think the only way to deal with him is tire him down with protects and blocks. [[User:Coigreach|Coigreach]] ([[User talk:Coigreach|talk]]) 01:10, 31 July 2020 (UTC) ::yeah we outnumber him-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 01:18, 31 July 2020 (UTC) == Hammered server? == I've had repeated failure to load error messages &amp; slow server response since last night. Are we getting hammered by a DDOS attack? [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:04, 1 August 2020 (UTC) :I've had this aswell since 2 days (just got an error when clicking the edit button). I first thought it was my internet connection, since I've had bad internet reception since we moved to this area. But then I noticed it only occured over here. :So, are the Kiwi's planning something? [[User:Gunther1987|Gunther1987]] ([[User talk:Gunther1987|talk]]) 18:28, 1 August 2020 (UTC) ::I have also been having issues and will gladly blame New Zealand along with Gunther1987-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 18:29, 1 August 2020 (UTC) :::Me too, I assumed that it was my connection but ... [[User:Scream!!|Scream!!]] ([[User talk:Scream!!|talk]]) 19:06, 1 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Same. {{User:GR/sig}} 19:20, 1 August 2020 (UTC) :Looking now. Apache server is under minimal load, if I hit edit it's not very fast ... - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 20:12, 1 August 2020 (UTC) ::If it helps (probably not, but it can't hurt either), I get the following error: {{quotebox|(Cannot access the database: php_network_getaddresses: getaddrinfo failed: Temporary failure in name resolution (db1.rationalwiki.org))}} {{User:GR/sig}} 20:25, 1 August 2020 (UTC) :::I believe the connection speeds have improved. I'll let you know if I get problems again. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 20:40, 1 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Is this the error others are getting? I added the IP directly to /etc/hosts so it shouldn't have lookup errors now... - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 20:43, 1 August 2020 (UTC) :::::That sounds like the one that I got. Reloading the page right away has cleared the error in my experience. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 21:06, 1 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Forgetting DNS for its own DB server? That's frickin bizarre. Still, nailing it into place works so far ... - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 22:13, 1 August 2020 (UTC) == 503 and 500 errors == Got these messages :Error 503 Backend fetch failed :Backend fetch failed :Guru Meditation: :XID: 483328064 and also :500 Internal Server Error Wiki was pretty much inacessible for ten to 15 minutes-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 13:03, 8 August 2020 (UTC) ::I only got the 503 error a few hours ago. [[User:Gunther1987|Gunther1987]] ([[User talk:Gunther1987|talk]]) 15:09, 8 August 2020 (UTC) == Rollback == Could we please have a little warning before we press the rollback button? Thanks. [[User:Fowler|Fowler]] ([[User talk:Fowler|talk]]) 13:45, 12 August 2020 (UTC) :I frankly think this site shouldn’t have rollback in the first place, but it does function as intended: no warning. All I can say is be careful if you’re looking at Recent Changes on your phone. Better yet, don’t look at Recent Changes. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 18:54, 12 August 2020 (UTC) ::Thanks ;-; [[User:Fowler|Fowler]] ([[User talk:Fowler|talk]]) 13:29, 13 August 2020 (UTC) :::The feature in question was made with the prerequisite that the users have discretion; I assume it was developed to quickly clean up the mess of BoN's/vandals without having to click twice. Usually a wiki should expel users who abuse that function, but eh. {{User:GR/sig}} 14:05, 13 August 2020 (UTC) ::::I mean its not that much to ask just to click rollback and then publish changes. Also, what do you mean by expel? [[User:Fowler|Fowler]] ([[User talk:Fowler|talk]]) 14:08, 13 August 2020 (UTC) :::::FWIW, WP has clear guidelines on how to use rollback, which would almost certainly lead to the removal of rollback rights for the vast majority of people who use rollback were those guidelines adopted here. I've misused it myself I'm sure. Just pointing out that the lack of guidelines here, as in so many instances, have led to a very permissive culture of abuse in my view. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 15:00, 13 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Instead of whining about this issue, why don't you propose some guidelines for use to prevent a so-called &quot;very permissive culture of abuse&quot;? —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:03, 13 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::I always 100% of the time review diffs and revert with an edit summary. I think that's the best way to do it, but it's stupid to expect everyone to do that, nutty. [[User:ikanreed|ikanreed]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;u&gt;[[user_talk:ikanreed|🐐Bleat at me]]&lt;/u&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 15:06, 13 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::100%? [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Ikanreed&amp;offset=20200224150611&amp;limit=500&amp;target=Ikanreed Are you sure?] {{User:GR/sig}} 15:09, 13 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Okay, I admit it, there was one mass page blanking troll I didn't bother to check the actual content of. Heck, that may have happened twice. [[User:ikanreed|ikanreed]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;u&gt;[[user_talk:ikanreed|🐐Bleat at me]]&lt;/u&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 15:46, 13 August 2020 (UTC) {{od}}I think rollback is useful. If you don't like it, use the 'undo' command instead. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 16:39, 13 August 2020 (UTC) :Rollback to me has been useful more or less exactly once, when I had to clean up and restore edits of a LANCBing user who removed all their edits (and even then it's usefulness was a little bit limited since it only worked on pages that someone else had edited in the meantime). I wouldn't neccessarily mind seeing it changed, but from what I know it's a built-in feature that doesn't have much in the way of configuration (but seriously, at least having a prompt to enter a reason would be awesome, right now it produces the exact same response as pressing undo without entering a reason). {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:16, 13 August 2020 (UTC) ::Rollback is definitely overused. Good faith edits and even ambiguous edits shouldn't be reverted without a reason being provided. It's convenient, definitely, but we need to curtail its abuse. We ought to be welcoming and constructive, not repressive.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 17:32, 13 August 2020 (UTC) == Notification not working... == Pinging someone is supposed to notify them, right? Then why isn't it working for me?! pls fix [[User:Sqrt-1|The 𝗦𝗾𝗿𝘁-𝟭]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Sqrt-1|&lt;span style=&quot;color: blue&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/span&gt;]] [[Special:Contributions/Sqrt-1|&lt;span style=&quot;color: blue&quot;&gt;stalk&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 09:10, 14 August 2020 (UTC) == How to a remove in image == Can someone explain how to remove an offensive image that does not have a vaporize option (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/File:Koohanaru.jpg). Someone copied or transcluded it from Creative Commons. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 17:04, 14 August 2020 (UTC) :Someone would need to have rights within Commons (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Koohanaru.jpg) to delete it (I tried, but I don't have perms for that). {{User:GR/sig}} 17:11, 14 August 2020 (UTC) ::Add &lt;pre&gt;__NSFW__&lt;/pre&gt; to the description for local files or local description for MediaWiki Commons files. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 17:13, 14 August 2020 (UTC) :The other way is to create a local image of the same name (e.g. a 1x1 transparent pixel PNG) - so the wiki pulls that instead of the Commons version - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 14:22, 23 August 2020 (UTC) ::Excellent! [[User:Scream!!|Scream!!]] ([[User talk:Scream!!|talk]]) 16:13, 23 August 2020 (UTC) == Why are BoN's allowed to create pages? == I am curious-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 03:55, 15 August 2020 (UTC) :BoN is not inherently bad. Some people just don't want to create an account. We have one quality Sysop who started as a BoN and decided to then create an account using their relatively permanent BoN as their user name. What's the guy's 'name', damned if I can remember. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 04:21, 15 August 2020 (UTC) ::Does this really fit in technical, anyway? {{User:GR/sig}} 04:39, 15 August 2020 (UTC) :::No. It goes either into the Bar on the Community Standards talkpage.{{User:Summa Atheologica/sig}} 14:38, 17 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Hmm seems like it's not broken, better get to fixin. [[User:ikanreed|ikanreed]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;u&gt;[[user_talk:ikanreed|🐐Bleat at me]]&lt;/u&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 18:14, 17 August 2020 (UTC) :::I brought it here because the people who would be able to disable such a function follow this page. I question the wisdom of allowing unregistered users to create new pages but so be it-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 11:47, 19 August 2020 (UTC) ::::There are various restrictions based on namespace, age of account, certain content, etc. Historically, public policy on this wiki has favored as few constraints on editing as possible. These restrictions are why you see very little ad spam or those weird SEO posts. Given how obsessively people refresh Recent Changes here, it seems to me that deleting nonsense that makes its way past the edit filters is trivially easy. But while you see very little spam, you also get no insight into the bigger problem that very few brand new good faith editors bother spending time following up on: the filters are too zealous and make serious editing using an IP or brand new account infuriating when you attempt certain things. Basically, the filters force a decision about balancing openness and protecting the site that only techs have ever been able to participate in. You're asking a good question. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 14:17, 19 August 2020 (UTC) :::::Eh. I recall that nobody was really interested in deleting spam pages, BoNs never made legitimate pages, created a situation where I heavily curbed new page creation for anyone who has less than 1 edit logged. Or that was the plan, I was high. It may be broken and I never noticed. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 23:53, 20 August 2020 (UTC) == Image not updating == &lt;s&gt;[[File:Icon_paganism.svg|center]] [[:File:Icon_paganism.svg]] is not updating. What can I do?&lt;/s&gt; :Edit: It updated. Please ignore. {{User:GR/sig}} 17:57, 19 August 2020 (UTC) ::The general reason this happens, btw, is multiple layers of caching between the database and your browser, and especially in MediaWiki itself - not all of which seem to purge on command - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 14:23, 23 August 2020 (UTC) :::Uh, so, https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/File:Germany-Statefl.svg says &quot;(Invalid SVG file: Expected &lt;svg&gt; tag, got in NS )&quot;. I have no idea what that means. When you click on the image, it shows it perfectly fine. {{User:GR/sig}} 19:25, 23 August 2020 (UTC) ::::So... SVG is a vector format. It describes a series of lines and polygons to make the drawing. This is what lets it scale to any size. It stores this information in a human readable xml format. You can view the xml by going to the image url and clicking &quot;view source&quot;. &lt;svg&gt; is a standard root tag for the svg namespace. I don't think your error message there is complete. [https://github.com/wikimedia/mediawiki/blob/0c0a60c87bfa40a189c220f995a501811f78d3f5/includes/media/SVGReader.php This is the file producing the error], line 132 specifically. Note that the error should be &quot;got [tag] in [namespace]&quot; instead of &quot;got [nothing] in [nothing]&quot;. ::::My best guess is it's choking on the &quot;&lt;?xml version=&quot;1.0&quot; encoding=&quot;UTF-8&quot; standalone=&quot;no&quot;?&gt;&quot; at the top of your file which is maybe nonstandard according to mediawiki? [[User:ikanreed|ikanreed]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;u&gt;[[user_talk:ikanreed|🐐Bleat at me]]&lt;/u&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 20:03, 23 August 2020 (UTC) :::::Hmm... Do you know how to fix this? {{User:GR/sig}} 20:08, 23 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Best guess is to open it in notepad, delete the part I quoted and upload again. No idea what the consequences are. [[User:ikanreed|ikanreed]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;u&gt;[[user_talk:ikanreed|🐐Bleat at me]]&lt;/u&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 01:20, 24 August 2020 (UTC) == History merges disabled == See [[RationalWiki:Saloon_bar#History_merges_disabled]] - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 23:10, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :You might want to link to the revision of that post being made since once the Saloon bar gets archived, it'll be more difficult to access that section as time goes by. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 23:14, 27 August 2020 (UTC) == Firefox/Android phone == Formatting of RW by the latest version of Firefox on my Android phone is buggered up. It doesn't seem to handle multi-column well + other issues. Firefox claimed that they're working on upgrades already because of complaints. WP seems to format OK. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 01:33, 28 August 2020 (UTC) == Add Inferno Bot to Echo blacklist == Could someone add [[User:Inferno Bot]] to the Echo blacklist on [[MediaWiki:Echo-blacklist]]. All that needs to be done is add a single line that's just &quot;Inferno Bot&quot; (no user link needed). It stops people from getting mentioned when a talkpage is archived, which could clog up the notifications list. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:26, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :Done. Nerd. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 19:12, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::Thanks. Came across it while messing with notifs in MW and testing how the system works. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 19:20, 28 August 2020 (UTC) == [[WIGOE]] CSS == The other WIGOs (e.g. [[WIGOW]]) have more padding around the fancy title box. Specifically, the CSS rule is &quot;padding: 0.2em 0.6em&quot;. Could someone with access to the site CSS make it so [[WIGOE]] has the same padding? —[[User:pythoncoder|&lt;span style=&quot;border-radius:10px;background:blue&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:aqua&quot;&gt; python&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:yellow&quot;&gt;coder &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:pythoncoder|talk]] &amp;#124; [[Special:Contribs/pythoncoder|contribs]]) 19:19, 29 August 2020 (UTC) :Fixed. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 22:26, 29 August 2020 (UTC) == Site notice requested == Somebody is trying to change the community standards. The community ought to be made aware of it-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:32, 29 August 2020 (UTC) :There should be a sitenotice, yes. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:37, 29 August 2020 (UTC) == Sidebar == I think we can probably get rid of the Telegram link on the sidebar. To my knowledge it was set up without the approval of the mob, and is now largely inactive. Also someone on Discord was saying they joined it and they saw homophobic videos and coronavirus conspiracy theories there (I joined it and saw the same). --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 11:03, 6 September 2020 (UTC) :since I have admin on the telegram I just removed the insane german who posted it. and ye it could use some more mods if anyone is interested. Afaik all the social media was setup independently of the wiki itself but that doesn't mean it isn't useful in increasing ratwikis Internet profile. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:13, 6 September 2020 (UTC) ::Personally I have no real interest in being a member there (Discord is more than enough for me frankly) but yeah, finding other people to keep an eye on it would be another potential solution. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 12:04, 6 September 2020 (UTC) :::Indeed, this works vice-versa of course. Not everybody on Telegram uses Discord, or wishes to use it. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 12:51, 6 September 2020 (UTC) == The Saloon Bar is apparently indexed == Would anybody mind it if I added &lt;nowiki&gt;__NOINDEX__&lt;/nowiki&gt;?-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 19:28, 10 September 2020 (UTC) :I don't mind. {{User:GR/sig}} 20:18, 10 September 2020 (UTC) :Could I ask why the Bar being indexed is a problem? {{User:The Crow/sig}} 19:59, 10 September 2020 (UTC) ::I don't have a problem with that. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Oxyaena&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 20:07, 10 September 2020 (UTC) :::Less fears about BoNs spamming links, no unwanted scrutiny/embarassments-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 20:18, 10 September 2020 (UTC) ::::No, the Saloon Bar often grows too large and without Index it will be hard to track sections.—[[User:Tuxer|Tuxer]] ([[User talk:Tuxer|talk]]) 22:04, 11 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Tuxer are you thinking of NOTOC? If so that's a different function. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 23:09, 11 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Technical_support&diff=2223126</id> <title>RationalWiki:Technical support</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Technical_support&diff=2223126"/> <updated>2020-09-06T12:51:16Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Sidebar */ <hr /> <div>&lt;center&gt;[[RationalWiki:Technical support/Archive_List|Archives for this page]]&lt;/center&gt; {{#tag:inputbox| bgcolor=transparent type=fulltext prefix=RationalWiki:Technical support break=yes width={{{width|60}}} searchbuttonlabel={{{label|Search the archives}}} }} {{shortcut|TECH|RW:TECH}} {{#ev:youtube|1Isjgc0oX0s|300|right|Fix it! Fix it! Fix it! Fix it! Fix it! Fix it! Fix it! Fix it! Fix it!}} __NEWSECTIONLINK__ '''Herein goeth anything regarding the technicalities of the wiki''' * Problems with accessing/editing the wiki * Problems with MediaWiki/HTML/CSS/Javascript/etc. * Questions about RW's configuration/extensions/servers/etc. * In short, anything tech-y goes here '''External links''' *Semi-frequent updates about RW's technical status are available at [http://rationalwiki.blogspot.com/ RationalWiki's blogspot]. *To view or suggest changes to configuration files and MediaWiki extensions, see [https://github.com/RationalWiki RationalWiki's GitHub]. '''Users''' *Users with [[RationalWiki:Techs|Tech]] rights: see [[Special:ListUsers/tech]] *Users with root on the servers: {{u|David Gerard}} (dgerard@gmail.com), {{u|Tmtoulouse}} and {{u|Tim Starling}}. '''If your IP is blocked from editing as an open proxy''' *You need to go to your provider about it. The lists we use are xbl.spamhaus.org, dnsbl.tornevall.org, all.s5h.net. If your IP is on one of these lists, then your provider has a serious problem they need to resolve. '''We cannot get your ISP out of the blacklist.''' == Subsection link (sticky) == What extension does Wikipedia use to get the subsection links next to each subsection title? {{User:FuzzyCatPotato/sig|}} 13:39, 24 July 2017 (UTC) :What r u talking about? [[User:ClickerClock|ClickerClock]] ([[User talk:ClickerClock|talk]]) 04:45, 10 September 2017 (UTC) ::I think Fuzzy means the &quot;§&quot; link that appears next to the headings, that links to the anchor for that heading. (once again, memorising the ASCII code for section signs comes in handy!) —[[User:Kazitor|Kazitor]], &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Kazitor|pending]]&lt;/sup&gt; 08:28, 16 November 2017 (UTC) {{ping|FuzzyCatPotato}}, yall happy now? {{main|Goat#What_to_do_with_a_Goat_and_a_stool}} {{wpl|Encyclopedia#Etymology}} {{wpa|Encyclopedia#Ancient times}} —[[User:ClickerClock|ClickerClock]] ([[User talk:ClickerClock|talk]]) 05:24, 17 November 2017 (UTC) :Not what I meant... I mean, that's really good :) But I recall there once being a § link next to the actual sections on a page. I'm not sure where it went. —[[User:Kazitor|Kazitor]], &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Kazitor|pending]]&lt;/sup&gt; 05:35, 17 November 2017 (UTC) ::I have no idea what you mean. —[[User:ClickerClock|ClickerClock]] ([[User talk:ClickerClock|talk]]) 05:44, 17 November 2017 (UTC) :::Like, on the page there is a heading that says &quot;Subsection link (sticky)&quot;. Next to it, either before or after the &quot;edit&quot; link, there was a single, grey &quot;§&quot; link that appended the appropriate anchor to the URL, e.g. [[#Subsection link (sticky)|§]]. —[[User:Kazitor|Kazitor]], &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Kazitor|pending]]&lt;/sup&gt; 06:13, 17 November 2017 (UTC) ::::Screenshot? —[[User:ClickerClock|ClickerClock]] ([[User talk:ClickerClock|talk]]) 12:34, 6 December 2017 (UTC) == Subsections playing up (sticky) == [[File:===Goat===.jpeg|thumb]] I've seen this a few times, it was [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Articles_for_deletion/Clive_Palmer&amp;oldid=1866668 this revision] and the wikitext seems normal. [[User:Christopher|Christopher]] ([[User talk:Christopher|talk]]) 09:33, 4 September 2017 (UTC) :The error occurs when a subsection is immediately before the end of a page. I'd bet that this is a result of the MediaWiki upgrade, but I've really no idea. {{User:FuzzyCatPotato/sig|}} 17:06, 4 September 2017 (UTC) ::And as [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Technical_support&amp;diff=1867130&amp;oldid=1867129 these] [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Technical_support&amp;diff=1867129&amp;oldid=1867019 edits] should make clear, this only occurs on certain pages. It could also be a template -- maybe something didn't close a div or a span and it's fucking with the subsections. {{User:FuzzyCatPotato/sig|}} 17:07, 4 September 2017 (UTC) :::This is not a result of the recent upgrade. This has been an issue for years.{{User:CheeseburgerFace/sig}} 17:09, 4 September 2017 (UTC) == Content dumps (sticky) == All of the internal links to backups on [[:RationalWiki:Content dumps]] fail. Also, what is the status of {{ping|David Gerard}}'s archive.org port? [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 02:15, 29 August 2018 (UTC) : yeah, they're all old. No, haven't pushed that forward at all, sorry - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 12:27, 29 August 2018 (UTC) ::{{ping|David Gerard}} reminder to do this -- might be convenient to do on same day you take elections live {{User:FuzzyCatPotato/sig|}} I made some dumps and uploaded them to archive.org. -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] ([[User talk:Tim Starling|talk]]) 12:07, 9 July 2019 (UTC) :Thank you, {{ping|Tim Starling}}! [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 17:54, 9 July 2019 (UTC) == 2019 software upgrade (sticky) == Idea: * Modernize Rationalwiki with things invented since 2017 ([[mediawikiwiki:MediaWiki 1.27|MediaWiki 1.27]]). Method: * Upgrade to [[mediawikiwiki:MediaWiki 1.31|MediaWiki 1.31]]. (not the latest version, but it is the latest LTS version). * Upgrade various existing extensions. * Install various extensions and skins bundled with the newer Mediawiki. (including the [[mediawikiwiki:Skin:Timeless|Timeless Skin]], and exensions; [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:CategoryTree|CategoryTree]], [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:CodeEditor|CodeEditor]], [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:MultimediaViewer|MultimediaViewer]], [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:Replace Text|Replace Text]], and [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:OATHAuth|OATHAuth]].) ::n.b. OATHAuth gives users the option of using two-factor authentication. Other things to do at the same time: * Install [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:Scribunto|Scribunto]] * Install [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:MobileFrontend|MobileFrontend]] (and the [[mediawikiwiki:Skin:Minerva Neue|Minerva Neue]] skin) * Install [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:TemplateStyles|TemplateStyles]] * Install [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:Thanks|Thanks]] * Install [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:WikiSEO|WikiSEO]] And * Setup a template to enable WikiSEO descriptors and an edit filter to avoid direct use. * Check that everything we already have won't break. Rationale: * Wikis, specifically Wikipedia, have several new features that weren't around when the site was last upgraded. The notable upgrades include Scribunto, a Lua template engine which is supposedly faster and easier to use (it allows for some advanced templates to be copied from the wikipedians who know how it works anyway). MobileFrontend and it's skin, which switches the sites reading view on mobile devices to a &quot;mobile compatible&quot; mode (users can switch back), it does make pages significantly easier to read on mobile devices. TemplateStyles allows per-page or per-template css styles, it uses a sanitized set of css rules to avoid security issues, this can be used to enable @media queries for templates to display differently on different devices. 'Thanks' is the extension which gives you the option to ping people for an edit, it is kinda optional but practically all other wikis have it. And finally, WikiSeo allows for a template which invisibly controls how a page displays when shared on social media, you can specify a description and image which, using semantic meta markup will be used by facebook/google/etc instead of a pretty random looking link. Comments, feedback, ideas and support/oppose of the proposed thingys welcome. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 15:54, 7 February 2019 (UTC) ===Nerd's comments=== I'm all for modernizing our infrastructure, as long as what we already have do not break. I really like the &quot;Thanks&quot; template. I first saw it on Wikipedia a couple years ago (when someone thanked me) and have used it occasionally ever since. The &quot;Timeless Skin&quot; looks like something the gods would approve. The Multimedia Viewer is something I almost always forget we don't have because it is so intuitive. Sorry if this is implied, but most of it is too technical for me. Will this upgrade include the visual edit gadget? I have been using it on Wikipedia for a quite some time now, and I love it! Finding the appropriate templates, citing sources, editing equations, changing photographs or illustrations. Amazing! While we are at it, does this proposed upgrade include the template that automatically converts units for you? It looks like this on Wikipedia. If you typed &lt;nowiki&gt;{{convert|1|mi|km}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;, the output would be 1 mile (1.6 km). I find this template very convenient. [[User:Nerd|Nerd]] ([[User talk:Nerd|talk]]) 18:42, 7 February 2019 (UTC) :The list I presented doesn't include Visual Editor. Although to be clear the main reason I left the Visual Editor thing out, is because it requires a very complicated additional setup so may be better suited as another task. However, the convert template would be made possible with Scribunto which I have listed up there, so that is included. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:26, 7 February 2019 (UTC) ::{{ping|Dysklyver}} I see. The visual editor can be a little resource-intensive. Thanks! When will this upgrade be implemented? [[User:Nerd|Nerd]] ([[User talk:Nerd|talk]]) 03:01, 8 February 2019 (UTC) :::I hope sometime this year, if everyone agrees and it gets organised properly. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 14:22, 8 February 2019 (UTC) ::::It's only February, but there is no harm in getting started early. How to get organize ourselves for it? [[User:Nerd|Nerd]] ([[User talk:Nerd|talk]]) 16:18, 8 February 2019 (UTC) :::::We need to finalize a set of things we want, get general agreement for it, and ideally test it all works on a test wiki, before then asking for it to be deployed, bearing in mind that Tmtoulouse/David Gerard are the operations people. The main thing is not to break the wiki, and the other thing is not to add things that will be there by default that everyone hates. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 16:37, 8 February 2019 (UTC) {{od}} How about setting up a sub-page, &quot;2019 upgrade&quot; for bullet point items, etc. for the implementation. – [[User:Dbz|Dbz]] ([[User talk:Dbz|talk]]) 00:30, 11 February 2019 (UTC) :I hate the &quot;visual edit gadget&quot;. &lt;span&gt;— '''[[User:Palaeonictis|&lt;font color=&quot;teal&quot;&gt;Palaeonictis&lt;/font&gt;]]''' [[User talk:Palaeonictis|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Fossil beds&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 10:20, 11 February 2019 (UTC) {{ping|Dysklyver}} Last time I check Trent Toulouse was a university professor. (David Gerard appears to be a programmer and book author.) This means we can potentially get this done before summer is out. [[User:Nerd|Nerd]] ([[User talk:Nerd|talk]]) 22:47, 26 February 2019 (UTC) :{{ping|Dysklyver}} Why hasn't this been done yet? What exactly is the problem? Damn. {{User:Thoughtcrime/sig}} 22:39, 15 May 2019 (UTC) ::A combination of laziness and procrastination. Somebody needs to figure out if certain existing extensions would work nicely with the proposed new software. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 23:31, 15 May 2019 (UTC) The visual editor is amazing for doing proper citations, which is a big problem on RW from what I can see (too many bare URLS). However I understand it is a large task. [[User:Debunky|Debunky]] ([[User talk:Debunky|talk]]) 02:03, 30 March 2020 (UTC) === The time approaches === I did the last MW upgrade, and I expect I'll do the next one too, some time in the near future. MW 1.27 is EOL so it needs to be done so that we can continue to receive security upgrades. I'd be comfortable installing the WMF-deployed extensions [[User:D|Dysklyver]] proposed above, specifically CategoryTree, CodeEditor, MultimediaViewer, OATHAuth, Scribunto, MobileFrontend, TemplateStyles, Thanks and the skin Timeless. I think VisualEditor is a reasonable stretch goal, if you want that. Instead of WikiSEO, which is unmaintained and not in Gerrit, I would suggest OpenGraphMeta, which is in Gerrit and is written by a well-known author, or PageImages, which is simple but WMF-deployed. The servers also need to be upgraded to Ubuntu 18.04. I'm thinking about the order of operations. Traditionally you do the OS upgrade first, so that you're more likely to have the dependencies needed by the new MW version. Linode's volume feature is now out of beta and available in Newark, which opens up some new possibilities for the kind and number of instances. If anyone wants to help, the number one thing that needs to be done is to test the RationalWiki-specific extensions against MW 1.31 and to update them as needed. They are all in [https://github.com/RationalWiki/ RationalWiki's GitHub], but nobody has ever submitted a pull request against them despite their comically bad state. Note that I moved Wigo3 to Gerrit, so the GitHub version is outdated and non-canonical. Wigo3 is the best of RationalWiki's extensions. -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] ([[User talk:Tim Starling|talk]]) 11:22, 7 July 2019 (UTC) :This is great. I won't specifically comment on the OS and how the load balancing works since I don't deal with that here, but as far as the extensions are concerned; :The rationale for WikiSEO was to generate descriptions for Google Search, and to get our articles to display previews on social media and chat applications, as a Wikipedia article would do if linked. Now it seems to me that [[:mediawikiwiki:Extension:OpenGraphMeta|OpenGraphMeta]] will generate previews for Facebook and presumably most social media sites, however it occurs to me that we could benefit from also installing [[:mediawikiwiki:Extension:Description2|Description2]] from the same author to get the Google Search descriptions which are currently rather lacklustre. :I am not personally bothered about VisualEditor either way, since from a technical viewpoint it needs that additional Parsoid service I think it would be an optional thing to do if you think that isn't too hard to setup and maintain. I don't know how the mob would consider it, I believe it is still generally a good extension but older editors hate using it, heh. :) :Otherwise, all good. :) {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 12:49, 7 July 2019 (UTC) ::Just think about how you want to spend my time, in priority order, and I'll think about how far down the list I want to go. What do you want more: VisualEditor or, say, analytics? Apparently [[Robert Lazar]] is the most popular article on this wiki. Is that something you want to know? Does that make you want to improve it? -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] ([[User talk:Tim Starling|talk]]) 13:52, 7 July 2019 (UTC) :::Most important things on this list would be MobileFrontend and it's associated skin. And in my personal opinion analytics is better than the Visual Editor. The rest is good to have but also easy-ish to install so not a huge concern I suppose. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 20:17, 7 July 2019 (UTC) ::::Hell no to Visual Editor. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;teal&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 22:46, 7 July 2019 (UTC) ::::I'm with Oxyaena on that. &amp;nbsp; — &lt;font size=&quot;4&quot;&gt;[[User:Jeff G.|Jeff]] [[User:Jeff G./talk|G. ツ]]&lt;/font&gt; 12:19, 9 July 2019 (UTC) :I think the main thing we can be said to ''need'' is something that works on mobile without looking like a web page for ants. I realise this is not a tiny thing of course - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 14:37, 8 July 2019 (UTC) :I'm going to second [[User:Dysklyver|Dysklyver]] and [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] on prioritizing MobileFrontend. The main reason I created an account here (which I just now finally got around to doing) is to request a proper mobile view. I'm not picky. I just want *something*! (I don't particularly care either way about any of the other MediaWiki extensions under discussion.) [[User:TMqWQfNP9zx2FbrA|TMqWQfNP9zx2FbrA]] ([[User talk:TMqWQfNP9zx2FbrA|talk]]) 11:59, 2 November 2019 (UTC) == Making time == Evidently the time for upgrading MediaWiki was not approaching as rapidly as I anticipated. I haven't had much free time, so I was considering just taking annual leave. I spoke to my manager at WMF about this, and he said that upgrading MediaWiki at RationalWiki could be a [[mw:Core Platform Team/Development Practices/10% time|10% time]] project, i.e. he would support me doing it during work time. The project would start in early February after our all staff meeting, and I'd have about one day a week to work on it. -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] ([[User talk:Tim Starling|talk]]) 23:41, 14 January 2020 (UTC) :That sounds nice that you'll get paid for it! [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 23:48, 14 January 2020 (UTC) :: nice to hear [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 12:14, 28 January 2020 (UTC) == Trying to create custom CSS getting caught by the &quot;Blackhat SEO Spammer&quot; filter == I tried adding custom CSS for myself at [[User:Sangv/common.css]] because the default MediaWiki theme and all the extra available themes give me headaches due to being black text on a white background. When I tried to submit the page, it was flagged with &quot;Blackhat SEO Spammer&quot;. I guess part of the issue here might be that I literally just signed up and immediately went to go and create that page? [[User:Sangv|Sangv]] ([[User talk:Sangv|talk]]) 05:21, 2 February 2020 (UTC) :I'm so sad no one helped you. All you needed was to keep posting a few times and get autopatrolled. [[User:ikanreed|ikanreed]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;u&gt;[[user_talk:ikanreed|🐐Bleat at me]]&lt;/u&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 17:53, 5 March 2020 (UTC) == Drafts in search results == Just got a draft I was working on coming up at the top of a Google search results list. Do we want drafts to appear in Google, based on the fact that they may not be reliable? I know it's possible to exclude pages from search results but is it technically possible to do this automatically for all drafts? I'm not demanding you fix this, I just thought I'd flag it up. --[[User:Annanoon|Annanoon]] ([[User talk:Annanoon|talk]]) 13:10, 5 March 2020 (UTC) :I agree that that would be a good idea. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 17:46, 5 March 2020 (UTC) ::Just checked, and my drafts show up in Google too. This should definitely be disabled with the potential liabilities it poses. [[User:Debunky|Debunky]] ([[User talk:Debunky|talk]]) 08:58, 28 March 2020 (UTC) :::Someone with access to the backend would need to insert no-robots/no-indexing code into draft page code. I think that limits this to small number people who can do this. Am I right {{ping|Oxyaena}}? [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 17:05, 28 March 2020 (UTC) ::::Only {{ping|David Gerard}} or {{ping|Tim Starling}} can do this, sorry. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 19:22, 28 March 2020 (UTC) You could simply put the noindex function in the draft template and add that template to every draft. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 19:26, 28 March 2020 (UTC) :Thanks, EK. Done. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:30, 4 April 2020 (UTC) == How will side by side work in mobile format? == Considering RW will eventually shift to a responsive mobile layout, how will side by side templates display? It almost seems like the format needs to change to a red box / green box approach, so that they will display on top of each other in clear form rather than shrinking to SBS on mobile. If they were just stacked without colour boxes it would be hard to see which is a response and which is a claim/original quote. [[User:Debunky|Debunky]] ([[User talk:Debunky|talk]]) 00:06, 4 April 2020 (UTC) == SEO spammer edit filter == [[User:Breeze]] got blocked by the SEO editfilter. Just reporting this here as I saw it on recent changes and they're blocked so of course they can't report it. We really should have something like Wikipedia's [[w:Template:Unblock]]. --[[Special:Contributions/47.146.63.87|47.146.63.87]] ([[User talk:47.146.63.87|talk]]) 21:24, 17 April 2020 (UTC) :I have removed the block. There actually is an unblock command on RationalWiki ([[:Special:Unblock]]). {{unsig|Bongolian}} ::Don't take this personally but I know my way around MediaWiki. Follow the link. That template is for placing on your talk page if you're blocked to ping admins for an unblock request. Every stock MediaWiki wiki has Special:Unblock because it's part of core. --[[Special:Contributions/47.146.63.87|47.146.63.87]] ([[User talk:47.146.63.87|talk]]) 06:47, 18 April 2020 (UTC) :::OK. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:21, 18 April 2020 (UTC) == Redirection404 == I'm not sure this is an issue but say somebody types out https://rationalwiki.org/blahblahblah instead of https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/blahblahblah it ends up sending the user to a blank 404 page rather than redirecting to a 404 page within the wiki? Is there anyway it could instead send it to a useful page that encourages them to search within RW? Maybe the home or search page? For example take a look at how Wikipedia handles it: https://en.wikipedia.org/blahblahblahblah they are encouraging the user to search in the wiki instead. --[[User:Debunky|Debunky]] ([[User talk:Debunky|talk]]) 08:08, 19 April 2020 (UTC) :this should be possible ye, I'll look into it. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 12:40, 19 April 2020 (UTC) == Quotebox issue == Maybe somebody could update the Quotebox template? It appears to always extend out under the navigation template on pages. For example take a look at [[Nick Fuentes]] and you can see the blue box is actually extended full width under the sidebar, however the text remains placed ok. --[[User:Debunky|Debunky]] ([[User talk:Debunky|talk]]) 16:16, 23 April 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|Debunky}} The behavior of the quotebox template can be controlled by using the &lt;code&gt;width&lt;/code&gt; parameter. In the [[Nick Fuentes]] article, I updated the first two quote boxes to specify &lt;code&gt;width=70%&lt;/code&gt; so that these boxes do not extend under the navigation boxes. This isn't a perfect solution but it works without jacking around with the template itself. [[User:Cosmikdebris|Cosmikdebris]] ([[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]) 14:04, 25 April 2020 (UTC) ::Thanks cosmikdebris. Of course when things go mobile optimized this may not be ideal. Hopefully we can get some new standardized templates similar to Wikipedia's to ensure consistency. --[[User:Debunky|Debunky]] ([[User talk:Debunky|talk]]) 00:15, 26 April 2020 (UTC) == &quot;Phantom of Liberty&quot; filter == Several users have been blocked as false positives by this filter, I recommend disabling it until it can be fixed. {{User:GrammarCommie/sig}} 15:57, 24 April 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|Bongolian}} {{ping|GrammarCommie}} I disabled this filter pending a review. [[User:Cosmikdebris|Cosmikdebris]] ([[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]) 16:31, 24 April 2020 (UTC) ::OK [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 17:31, 24 April 2020 (UTC) :::I removed a 'not' (!). That should fix it. Have a look and reactivate if you think it's OK. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:28, 24 April 2020 (UTC) ::::OK, I re-enabled it and will keep a watch. [[User:Cosmikdebris|Cosmikdebris]] ([[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]) 19:58, 24 April 2020 (UTC) :::::i think it was just a little wide to include all contents rather than just added contents. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 21:29, 24 April 2020 (UTC) == It got fixed. == Who woke up the Elder One {{ping|David Gerard}}? &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 18:30, 2 May 2020 (UTC) :duce pinged me. I won't go into details, but someone was showing their deep appreciation for the site - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 10:06, 3 May 2020 (UTC) == How do I force the capturebot to screengrab CP? == That would be useful to know.{{User:Summa Atheologica/sig}} 17:56, 22 May 2020 (UTC) :There used to be a functioning capturebot that would do this sort of thing automatically. You're basically on your own, but we have instructions for the manual methods here: [[:Help:Screenshots]]. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:04, 23 May 2020 (UTC) == SEO Spammer False Positive == Hello, I'm trying to create a page in User:DamnYouDaria/sandbox/Gavin Seim as I want to work on a page about libertarian wing-nut Gavin Seim. I was creating a rough draft and got the error message :Warning: This action has been automatically identified as harmful and you will be blocked from editing you if you click submit. :Your action matched the edit filter: Blackhat SEO Spammer :Unconstructive edits such as spam are unwelcome, however there are occasional false positives, if this is a false positive, please report it at RationalWiki:Technical support. Do not try to make the edit again even if making minor changes, as you will be blocked and then unable to report the error. : If you believe this edit to be constructive, please contact an administrator. If you ignore this notice and get blocked, you should let us know on your talkpage.&quot; However, since it doesn't say what admin I should contact or where I can contact an admin and since I was directed here, I wanted to post here about this error message. --[[User:DamnYouDaria|DamnYouDaria]] ([[User talk:DamnYouDaria|talk]]) 04:29, 29 May 2020 (UTC) ::{{ping|DamnYouDaria}}, I've autopatrolled you. That should solve the problem. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:52, 29 May 2020 (UTC) == So my IP is blocked. == I just tried to edit by IP by accident and found it was blocked. The last time I did an IP edit must have been years ago and with a different provider. I get ''&quot;Your IP address is listed as an open proxy in the DNSBL used by RationalWiki. 08:25, 1 June 2020 and will end at infinite. You may contact DNSBL&quot;'' I use a my mobile data plan in Spain So if that IP is blocked I'm sure it won't be the only one. It's in [https://db-ip.com/all/31.4.247 this range]. But I guess that's a mistake unless someone can tell me what's up. It's not really a problem for me but it could be for others.[[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|&lt;sup&gt;&quot;Life is short and (insert adjective)&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:38, 1 June 2020 (UTC) :It's likely because someone using that IP before it was assigned to you had a virus infection, causing it to send spam (assuming your own device doesn't have a virus). [[Special:Contributions/71.208.115.25|71.208.115.25]] ([[User talk:71.208.115.25|talk]]) 17:51, 10 June 2020 (UTC) == Can't open [[Talk:Terrorism]] == Subject. I get delightful PHP errors and I can't even open its editor to see what could be causing them. {{User:Zero/Signature}} 12:55, 3 June 2020 (UTC) :It works for me. Anyone else? [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 16:47, 3 June 2020 (UTC) ::Dunno if it was causing the problem but I've removed some stuff from the first para. Is OK now? [[User:Scream!!|Scream!!]] ([[User talk:Scream!!|talk]]) 17:02, 3 June 2020 (UTC) == SEO Spammer false positive #2 == I've been trying to create a page on DRM and Silicons valleys war on software ownership with the public denies, it has huge political implications if every device is spying on us (our phones, windows 10, etc). It's technology that is building a turnkey dictatorship before our eyes because we didn't get any property rights to own software. I got an error message below... mon333. :Warning: This action has been automatically identified as harmful and you will be blocked from editing you if you click submit. :Your action matched the edit filter: Blackhat SEO Spammer :Unconstructive edits such as spam are unwelcome, however there are occasional false positives, if this is a false positive, please report it at RationalWiki:Technical support. Do not try :to make the edit again even if making minor changes, as you will be blocked and then unable to report the error. :If you believe this edit to be constructive, please contact an administrator. If you ignore this notice and get blocked, you should let us know on your talkpage.&quot; &lt;sup&gt;&amp;mdash; Unsigned, by: [[User:Mon333|Mon333]] / [[User talk:Mon333|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Mon333|contribs]] &lt;/sup&gt; :try again now. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 16:13, 10 June 2020 (UTC) :You've been autopatrolled and should be able to create the page now. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 17:29, 10 June 2020 (UTC) == Automated spam filter blocking page creation == I attempted to make a new page and the edit was blocked by the spam filter. From reading previous threads, I think that autopatrolling me should fix the issue. [[User:CausticAnalysis|CausticAnalysis]] ([[User talk:CausticAnalysis|talk]]) 18:06, 12 June 2020 (UTC) :Having tried a couple of other edits, that's almost definitely the issue. Would an admin be able to autopatrol me? [[User:CausticAnalysis|CausticAnalysis]] ([[User talk:CausticAnalysis|talk]]) 18:22, 12 June 2020 (UTC) ::I added you to autopatrolled, although it's no solution to dealing with a bloated, incoherent, and likely broken edit filter. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 18:29, 12 June 2020 (UTC) :::Eh, this could be worked on I'm seeing a few avoidable false positives. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:46, 18 June 2020 (UTC) == 503 and database failure == Is there something going on with the database? I keep getting errors off and on when I try to use the site. {{User:GrammarCommie/sig}} 23:38, 15 June 2020 (UTC) ::There's a DDOS happening attacking the USA. [[User:Scream!!|Scream!!]] ([[User talk:Scream!!|talk]]) 23:49, 15 June 2020 (UTC) :::I'm curious, is it targeting us specifically?-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 23:50, 15 June 2020 (UTC) ::::Apparently it's asia (all of it?) attacking the USA: [https://popculture.com/trending/news/ddos-attack-major-united-states/ Only report I can find at speed] [[User:Scream!!|Scream!!]] ([[User talk:Scream!!|talk]]) 23:53, 15 June 2020 (UTC) The above report is probably unrelated, but the site was down for an hour just now due to &quot;emergency maintenance&quot; by Linode. db1 failed to come back up after Linode rebooted the host. After an hour, I initiated a reboot via the Linode dashboard, which worked. -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] ([[User talk:Tim Starling|talk]]) 03:18, 16 June 2020 (UTC) :There is an ongoing issue which I'm trying to resolve. -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] ([[User talk:Tim Starling|talk]]) 03:43, 16 June 2020 (UTC) :Linode reports that there was a DoS attack against another instance on the same physical host. This is now resolved. I started a backup restoration, and it's only 23% done after almost 2 hours, so I was a long way from bringing the site up that way. I might do a test restore of an SQL dump, that's probably faster than using Linode's backup system.- -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] ([[User talk:Tim Starling|talk]]) 05:22, 16 June 2020 (UTC) ::We also suffered a really obnoxious wiki crawler that was hammering the system (looks like an amateur), and a less obnoxious crawler that was still running at a few hits per second (PetalBot, run by Huawei) - both are blocked in Varnish now - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 11:44, 16 June 2020 (UTC) == &lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt; == That wiki markup has some serious issues, I tried using an online latex editor and I still get errors. {{User:Godless_Raven/sig}} 14:34, 21 June 2020 (UTC) :the math extension has been mostly broken for a long time now. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 14:21, 22 June 2020 (UTC) ::Any updates on this matter? {{User:GR/sig}} 19:00, 10 July 2020 (UTC) :::Not unless the board sends Tim more cookies. {{User:Ze/?}} 19:28, 10 July 2020 (UTC) ::::cringe. {{User:GR/sig}} 10:35, 11 July 2020 (UTC) :::::Update: I tested a little bit with the math function. I discovered that: &lt;pre&gt; &lt;math&gt;2B=B&lt;/math&gt; &lt;math&gt;3B=B&lt;/math&gt; &lt;/pre&gt; yields: &lt;math&gt;2B=B&lt;/math&gt; &lt;math&gt;3B=B&lt;/math&gt; And my suspicion is that the server/database whatever knows how to render previously made latex png's (or saved these and just re-renders them whenever called) while it blocks any effort of making new PNG conversions. Not sure if this helps, but it surely can't be syntax related (if 2B=B works, why shouldn't 3B=B? silly). {{User:GR/sig}} 14:33, 13 August 2020 (UTC) == Law Enforcement Requests == I’m not going to get into specifics for obvious reasons, but since this site doesn’t have checkuser, if I suspect a specific user on this wiki is stalking me, would this wiki be able to cooperate with law enforcement in any way to identify the person beyond his anonymous wiki handle? [[Special:Contributions/2607:FB90:930F:3E96:1D45:4829:C33B:EAC0|2607:FB90:930F:3E96:1D45:4829:C33B:EAC0]] ([[User talk:2607:FB90:930F:3E96:1D45:4829:C33B:EAC0|talk]]) 03:22, 22 June 2020 (UTC) :Have you read this? https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Legal_FAQ {{User:Godless_Raven/sig}} 03:28, 22 June 2020 (UTC) :this wiki doesn't store identity information so no. Certain individual users probably could help but aren't obliged to do so. [[User:EK|EK]] ([[User talk:EK|talk]]) 14:13, 22 June 2020 (UTC) == Update Toolbar == Hey, can someone update [[MediaWiki:Edittools]] to change the PiBot template to the one used by [[User:Inferno Bot]]? Just replace TalkPage/PiBot with User:InfernoBot/config . The result should look a bit like this (copy from inbetween the nowiki tags in source mode if you just want to copypaste, there are hidden newline characters that need to be copied into the Edittools page): &lt;nowiki&gt;{{User:Inferno Bot/config&amp;#10;|algo=old(30d)&amp;#10;|archive={{subst:NAMESPACE}}:{{subst:PAGENAME}}/Archive%(counter)d&amp;#10;|maxarchivesize=100K&amp;#10;|search=yes&amp;#10;}}&lt;/nowiki&gt; Asking since PiBot is dead. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:27, 3 July 2020 (UTC) :I could but that wouldn't update all the pages already using the pibot code and would make it inconsistent, the options would be to either usurp the pibot name and replace it with your bot, or to simply continue using it as is but recognising the pibot template, which is what kazitor always did I think. {{User:Ze/?}} 20:51, 3 July 2020 (UTC) ==Request for name change due to off-wiki abuse== Can a user with tech rights please change my username to Johns. My username John66 is repeatedly spammed around multiple forums and websites by [[Abd Lomax]] with misinformation spread about my account, this same insane old man and someone associated with him (his friend [[mikemikev]]?) has also been spamming me with abusive emails a few times this week. I have not had a name change before, but I would only request it once. Thanks [[User:John66|John66]] ([[User talk:John66|talk]]) 10:39, 9 July 2020 (UTC) :You aren't the only one lol, tho I have personally found &quot;[https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiInAction/comments/bqeyrw/oliver_d_smith_banned_from_rationalwiki/?utm_medium=android_app&amp;utm_source=share Oliver D. Smith]&quot; to be more abusive to me personally than the others you mentioned they are all a big problem and you should consider setting up email filters because Mikemikev and Smith particularly are known to send death/rape threats etc for months using throwaway emails, at least that's what they did to me. I have renamed your account as you asked, there are edit filters here which prevent these people directly mentioning their favourite targets (such as you) to some extent, it should be fine. Generally DNFTT applies to the whole circus of them. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:04, 9 July 2020 (UTC) :: Thanks for the name change. Smith/Mikemikev/Abd Lomax all have legit email addresses on public record and Smith and Mikemikev have denied sending these emails. I have never spoken to Lomax but he seems to write a lot of bad things about RationalWiki users. The behavior is odd. In regard to these emails when you try and reply to some of them they have already been deleted, so these are are throwaway emails as you say that seem to be created and deleted in a single day. I started to think it might be Lomax trying to frame the other two, then I thought no, what if it is somebody else associated with Lomax or somebody who hates all them of them or vise versa? Nathan Larson is a new name I came across, he is associated with Lomax. I don't know if he is behind the rape emails but look that guy up he's been in prison for sending people threats. He may qualify for an article on this website. Do you know the history of the Lomax/Smith/Mikemikev feud? It seems to have been going on for more than 3 years. Why do all these guys hate each other so much and why do other people seem to get innocently sucked into it? Hopefully it will end soon. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 12:01, 9 July 2020 (UTC) :::I mean Oliver basically admitted it was him sending some of the ones I got by sending me weird DMs on twitter from his account afterwards, and Mikemikev is incredibly obvious and used to hangout on my Discord server and Stormfront and say the same things so I know he was personally involved too. Lomax has ironically always been fine to me but others are less than pleased with his verbose writings. :::The Nathan Larson guy is new but he floated in because he's a pedophile and the other people might be or not but were certainly talking about it and that attracted his attention, Larson then proceeded to get involved on telegram and be a nuisance by posting child pornography and claiming this was somehow ok due to free speech, he has a Wikipedia page but nothing here yet. :::The dispute itself goes way back to when Oliver and Mikemikev were both admins on [[Metapedia]] and had a dispute, which was followed by 7 years of drama across multiple websites, but mostly Kiwifarms (which Oliver temporarily shut down) Wikipedia (where both Oliver and Mikemikev are banned for massive sockpuppetry) RationalWikiWiki (Which Oliver got shut down) and RationalWiki (where both are banned) Abd somehow got involved in the affair when they were on Wikipedia and Oliver got him banned from there, after which he followed Oliver here and was banned too, and then this went off onto reddit and other places before having a stroke recently and becoming largely inactive. :::RationalWiki is involved mainly because it's Olivers favorite place to write &quot;hit peices&quot; on people he doesn't like, most of whom are far right cranks but you got to watch out because he will target anyone, he's got no filter. Mikemikev is just insane and thinks we are all evil Jews, he has no angle except uncontrolled hatred. Lomax just writes thousands of pages of content about this stuff, literally book length write ups, its not clear why exactly but I think he just likes doing it. :::If you get emails that in any way describe you as a Jewish cultural Marxist traitor to Western civilisation and the white race, that's probably Mikemikev, if it's more focused then it's probably Oliver, and if it's over 5000 words long then it's probably Abd. But really the distinction is pretty irrelevant at this point since they all probably hate your guts, Oliver has tried to dox you before, Mikemikev thinks you are Jewish, and Abd thinks you are a sock account of an evil mastermind soooo you are screwed with all of them. {{User:Ze/?}} 13:48, 9 July 2020 (UTC) :::: Thanks for the history lesson on these 3 stooges. I will remove my email address and delete it, that's the best way I think, I don't need any off-site communication from now on with anyone. I am tired of these guys drama. I suggested a ban list for this website to name and shame banned users but it was not allowed. Its get boring reading these guys nonsense. [[User:Johns|Johns]] ([[User talk:Johns|talk]]) 16:45, 9 July 2020 (UTC) == Template request == Hi, I wanted to check if anyone could copy the template {{wpl|Template:Su}} from WP? It requires the {{wpl|Module:Su}} from {{wpl|Wikipedia:Lua}}. {{User:GR/sig}} 00:41, 19 July 2020 (UTC) :Probably not a good idea because of the warning in the Template:Su documentation, &quot;these templates use all kinds of hacky tricks…&quot; [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 03:12, 19 July 2020 (UTC) == Images not working == [[File:Social_Democrats_(Denmark)_logo.svg]] does not work in here; it works in my wikipedia sandbox (same code). This applies to multiple images, too. This isn't an exception. Any resolution? {{User:GR/sig}} 13:49, 23 July 2020 (UTC) :If I'm following, you want to interwiki embed an image from Wikipedia. You can interwiki link the image, but so far as I'm aware you can't interwiki embed and the software will only check Wikimedia Commons, not Wikipedia, for images if no such file name exists on this site. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 16:04, 23 July 2020 (UTC) ::Oh that makes sense. Thank you. {{User:GR/sig}} 16:47, 23 July 2020 (UTC) == Trump's Page == The [[Donald_Trump|image]] seems to be broken or something? [[User:Gunther1987|Gunther1987]] ([[User talk:Gunther1987|talk]]) 14:23, 29 July 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|Gunther1987}} Fixed. Sometimes you need to re-render the page to fix certain images. All I did was click &quot;edit&quot; and submit, not changing anything. {{User:GR/sig}} 14:30, 29 July 2020 (UTC) ::You can also add ?action=purge to the end of a page, that makes MediaWiki re-render the page as well. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 18:32, 29 July 2020 (UTC) == Yankeestan == Worth adding to the edit filter? Or is it better dealing with this particular vandal the old-fashioned way?-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 01:05, 31 July 2020 (UTC) :This BoN seems to be figuring out lame ways to vandalize pages as it goes. I'm not opposed to adding &quot;Yankeestan&quot; to the edit filter, but it's not going to stop then from being a nuisance. With him either having a VPN or using proxies, I think the only way to deal with him is tire him down with protects and blocks. [[User:Coigreach|Coigreach]] ([[User talk:Coigreach|talk]]) 01:10, 31 July 2020 (UTC) ::yeah we outnumber him-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 01:18, 31 July 2020 (UTC) == Hammered server? == I've had repeated failure to load error messages &amp; slow server response since last night. Are we getting hammered by a DDOS attack? [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:04, 1 August 2020 (UTC) :I've had this aswell since 2 days (just got an error when clicking the edit button). I first thought it was my internet connection, since I've had bad internet reception since we moved to this area. But then I noticed it only occured over here. :So, are the Kiwi's planning something? [[User:Gunther1987|Gunther1987]] ([[User talk:Gunther1987|talk]]) 18:28, 1 August 2020 (UTC) ::I have also been having issues and will gladly blame New Zealand along with Gunther1987-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 18:29, 1 August 2020 (UTC) :::Me too, I assumed that it was my connection but ... [[User:Scream!!|Scream!!]] ([[User talk:Scream!!|talk]]) 19:06, 1 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Same. {{User:GR/sig}} 19:20, 1 August 2020 (UTC) :Looking now. Apache server is under minimal load, if I hit edit it's not very fast ... - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 20:12, 1 August 2020 (UTC) ::If it helps (probably not, but it can't hurt either), I get the following error: {{quotebox|(Cannot access the database: php_network_getaddresses: getaddrinfo failed: Temporary failure in name resolution (db1.rationalwiki.org))}} {{User:GR/sig}} 20:25, 1 August 2020 (UTC) :::I believe the connection speeds have improved. I'll let you know if I get problems again. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 20:40, 1 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Is this the error others are getting? I added the IP directly to /etc/hosts so it shouldn't have lookup errors now... - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 20:43, 1 August 2020 (UTC) :::::That sounds like the one that I got. Reloading the page right away has cleared the error in my experience. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 21:06, 1 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Forgetting DNS for its own DB server? That's frickin bizarre. Still, nailing it into place works so far ... - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 22:13, 1 August 2020 (UTC) == 503 and 500 errors == Got these messages :Error 503 Backend fetch failed :Backend fetch failed :Guru Meditation: :XID: 483328064 and also :500 Internal Server Error Wiki was pretty much inacessible for ten to 15 minutes-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 13:03, 8 August 2020 (UTC) ::I only got the 503 error a few hours ago. [[User:Gunther1987|Gunther1987]] ([[User talk:Gunther1987|talk]]) 15:09, 8 August 2020 (UTC) == Rollback == Could we please have a little warning before we press the rollback button? Thanks. [[User:Fowler|Fowler]] ([[User talk:Fowler|talk]]) 13:45, 12 August 2020 (UTC) :I frankly think this site shouldn’t have rollback in the first place, but it does function as intended: no warning. All I can say is be careful if you’re looking at Recent Changes on your phone. Better yet, don’t look at Recent Changes. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 18:54, 12 August 2020 (UTC) ::Thanks ;-; [[User:Fowler|Fowler]] ([[User talk:Fowler|talk]]) 13:29, 13 August 2020 (UTC) :::The feature in question was made with the prerequisite that the users have discretion; I assume it was developed to quickly clean up the mess of BoN's/vandals without having to click twice. Usually a wiki should expel users who abuse that function, but eh. {{User:GR/sig}} 14:05, 13 August 2020 (UTC) ::::I mean its not that much to ask just to click rollback and then publish changes. Also, what do you mean by expel? [[User:Fowler|Fowler]] ([[User talk:Fowler|talk]]) 14:08, 13 August 2020 (UTC) :::::FWIW, WP has clear guidelines on how to use rollback, which would almost certainly lead to the removal of rollback rights for the vast majority of people who use rollback were those guidelines adopted here. I've misused it myself I'm sure. Just pointing out that the lack of guidelines here, as in so many instances, have led to a very permissive culture of abuse in my view. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 15:00, 13 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Instead of whining about this issue, why don't you propose some guidelines for use to prevent a so-called &quot;very permissive culture of abuse&quot;? —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:03, 13 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::I always 100% of the time review diffs and revert with an edit summary. I think that's the best way to do it, but it's stupid to expect everyone to do that, nutty. [[User:ikanreed|ikanreed]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;u&gt;[[user_talk:ikanreed|🐐Bleat at me]]&lt;/u&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 15:06, 13 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::100%? [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Ikanreed&amp;offset=20200224150611&amp;limit=500&amp;target=Ikanreed Are you sure?] {{User:GR/sig}} 15:09, 13 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Okay, I admit it, there was one mass page blanking troll I didn't bother to check the actual content of. Heck, that may have happened twice. [[User:ikanreed|ikanreed]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;u&gt;[[user_talk:ikanreed|🐐Bleat at me]]&lt;/u&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 15:46, 13 August 2020 (UTC) {{od}}I think rollback is useful. If you don't like it, use the 'undo' command instead. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 16:39, 13 August 2020 (UTC) :Rollback to me has been useful more or less exactly once, when I had to clean up and restore edits of a LANCBing user who removed all their edits (and even then it's usefulness was a little bit limited since it only worked on pages that someone else had edited in the meantime). I wouldn't neccessarily mind seeing it changed, but from what I know it's a built-in feature that doesn't have much in the way of configuration (but seriously, at least having a prompt to enter a reason would be awesome, right now it produces the exact same response as pressing undo without entering a reason). {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:16, 13 August 2020 (UTC) ::Rollback is definitely overused. Good faith edits and even ambiguous edits shouldn't be reverted without a reason being provided. It's convenient, definitely, but we need to curtail its abuse. We ought to be welcoming and constructive, not repressive.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 17:32, 13 August 2020 (UTC) == Notification not working... == Pinging someone is supposed to notify them, right? Then why isn't it working for me?! pls fix [[User:Sqrt-1|The 𝗦𝗾𝗿𝘁-𝟭]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Sqrt-1|&lt;span style=&quot;color: blue&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/span&gt;]] [[Special:Contributions/Sqrt-1|&lt;span style=&quot;color: blue&quot;&gt;stalk&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 09:10, 14 August 2020 (UTC) == How to a remove in image == Can someone explain how to remove an offensive image that does not have a vaporize option (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/File:Koohanaru.jpg). Someone copied or transcluded it from Creative Commons. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 17:04, 14 August 2020 (UTC) :Someone would need to have rights within Commons (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Koohanaru.jpg) to delete it (I tried, but I don't have perms for that). {{User:GR/sig}} 17:11, 14 August 2020 (UTC) ::Add &lt;pre&gt;__NSFW__&lt;/pre&gt; to the description for local files or local description for MediaWiki Commons files. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 17:13, 14 August 2020 (UTC) :The other way is to create a local image of the same name (e.g. a 1x1 transparent pixel PNG) - so the wiki pulls that instead of the Commons version - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 14:22, 23 August 2020 (UTC) ::Excellent! [[User:Scream!!|Scream!!]] ([[User talk:Scream!!|talk]]) 16:13, 23 August 2020 (UTC) == Why are BoN's allowed to create pages? == I am curious-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 03:55, 15 August 2020 (UTC) :BoN is not inherently bad. Some people just don't want to create an account. We have one quality Sysop who started as a BoN and decided to then create an account using their relatively permanent BoN as their user name. What's the guy's 'name', damned if I can remember. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 04:21, 15 August 2020 (UTC) ::Does this really fit in technical, anyway? {{User:GR/sig}} 04:39, 15 August 2020 (UTC) :::No. It goes either into the Bar on the Community Standards talkpage.{{User:Summa Atheologica/sig}} 14:38, 17 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Hmm seems like it's not broken, better get to fixin. [[User:ikanreed|ikanreed]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;u&gt;[[user_talk:ikanreed|🐐Bleat at me]]&lt;/u&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 18:14, 17 August 2020 (UTC) :::I brought it here because the people who would be able to disable such a function follow this page. I question the wisdom of allowing unregistered users to create new pages but so be it-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 11:47, 19 August 2020 (UTC) ::::There are various restrictions based on namespace, age of account, certain content, etc. Historically, public policy on this wiki has favored as few constraints on editing as possible. These restrictions are why you see very little ad spam or those weird SEO posts. Given how obsessively people refresh Recent Changes here, it seems to me that deleting nonsense that makes its way past the edit filters is trivially easy. But while you see very little spam, you also get no insight into the bigger problem that very few brand new good faith editors bother spending time following up on: the filters are too zealous and make serious editing using an IP or brand new account infuriating when you attempt certain things. Basically, the filters force a decision about balancing openness and protecting the site that only techs have ever been able to participate in. You're asking a good question. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 14:17, 19 August 2020 (UTC) :::::Eh. I recall that nobody was really interested in deleting spam pages, BoNs never made legitimate pages, created a situation where I heavily curbed new page creation for anyone who has less than 1 edit logged. Or that was the plan, I was high. It may be broken and I never noticed. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 23:53, 20 August 2020 (UTC) == Image not updating == &lt;s&gt;[[File:Icon_paganism.svg|center]] [[:File:Icon_paganism.svg]] is not updating. What can I do?&lt;/s&gt; :Edit: It updated. Please ignore. {{User:GR/sig}} 17:57, 19 August 2020 (UTC) ::The general reason this happens, btw, is multiple layers of caching between the database and your browser, and especially in MediaWiki itself - not all of which seem to purge on command - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 14:23, 23 August 2020 (UTC) :::Uh, so, https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/File:Germany-Statefl.svg says &quot;(Invalid SVG file: Expected &lt;svg&gt; tag, got in NS )&quot;. I have no idea what that means. When you click on the image, it shows it perfectly fine. {{User:GR/sig}} 19:25, 23 August 2020 (UTC) ::::So... SVG is a vector format. It describes a series of lines and polygons to make the drawing. This is what lets it scale to any size. It stores this information in a human readable xml format. You can view the xml by going to the image url and clicking &quot;view source&quot;. &lt;svg&gt; is a standard root tag for the svg namespace. I don't think your error message there is complete. [https://github.com/wikimedia/mediawiki/blob/0c0a60c87bfa40a189c220f995a501811f78d3f5/includes/media/SVGReader.php This is the file producing the error], line 132 specifically. Note that the error should be &quot;got [tag] in [namespace]&quot; instead of &quot;got [nothing] in [nothing]&quot;. ::::My best guess is it's choking on the &quot;&lt;?xml version=&quot;1.0&quot; encoding=&quot;UTF-8&quot; standalone=&quot;no&quot;?&gt;&quot; at the top of your file which is maybe nonstandard according to mediawiki? [[User:ikanreed|ikanreed]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;u&gt;[[user_talk:ikanreed|🐐Bleat at me]]&lt;/u&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 20:03, 23 August 2020 (UTC) :::::Hmm... Do you know how to fix this? {{User:GR/sig}} 20:08, 23 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Best guess is to open it in notepad, delete the part I quoted and upload again. No idea what the consequences are. [[User:ikanreed|ikanreed]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;u&gt;[[user_talk:ikanreed|🐐Bleat at me]]&lt;/u&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 01:20, 24 August 2020 (UTC) == History merges disabled == See [[RationalWiki:Saloon_bar#History_merges_disabled]] - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 23:10, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :You might want to link to the revision of that post being made since once the Saloon bar gets archived, it'll be more difficult to access that section as time goes by. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 23:14, 27 August 2020 (UTC) == Firefox/Android phone == Formatting of RW by the latest version of Firefox on my Android phone is buggered up. It doesn't seem to handle multi-column well + other issues. Firefox claimed that they're working on upgrades already because of complaints. WP seems to format OK. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 01:33, 28 August 2020 (UTC) == Add Inferno Bot to Echo blacklist == Could someone add [[User:Inferno Bot]] to the Echo blacklist on [[MediaWiki:Echo-blacklist]]. All that needs to be done is add a single line that's just &quot;Inferno Bot&quot; (no user link needed). It stops people from getting mentioned when a talkpage is archived, which could clog up the notifications list. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 15:26, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :Done. Nerd. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 19:12, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::Thanks. Came across it while messing with notifs in MW and testing how the system works. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 19:20, 28 August 2020 (UTC) == [[WIGOE]] CSS == The other WIGOs (e.g. [[WIGOW]]) have more padding around the fancy title box. Specifically, the CSS rule is &quot;padding: 0.2em 0.6em&quot;. Could someone with access to the site CSS make it so [[WIGOE]] has the same padding? —[[User:pythoncoder|&lt;span style=&quot;border-radius:10px;background:blue&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:aqua&quot;&gt; python&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:yellow&quot;&gt;coder &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:pythoncoder|talk]] &amp;#124; [[Special:Contribs/pythoncoder|contribs]]) 19:19, 29 August 2020 (UTC) :Fixed. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 22:26, 29 August 2020 (UTC) == Site notice requested == Somebody is trying to change the community standards. The community ought to be made aware of it-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:32, 29 August 2020 (UTC) :There should be a sitenotice, yes. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:37, 29 August 2020 (UTC) == Sidebar == I think we can probably get rid of the Telegram link on the sidebar. To my knowledge it was set up without the approval of the mob, and is now largely inactive. Also someone on Discord was saying they joined it and they saw homophobic videos and coronavirus conspiracy theories there (I joined it and saw the same). --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 11:03, 6 September 2020 (UTC) :since I have admin on the telegram I just removed the insane german who posted it. and ye it could use some more mods if anyone is interested. Afaik all the social media was setup independently of the wiki itself but that doesn't mean it isn't useful in increasing ratwikis Internet profile. {{User:Ze/?}} 11:13, 6 September 2020 (UTC) ::Personally I have no real interest in being a member there (Discord is more than enough for me frankly) but yeah, finding other people to keep an eye on it would be another potential solution. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 12:04, 6 September 2020 (UTC) :::Indeed, this works vice-versa of course. Not everybody on Telegram uses Discord, or wishes to use it. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 12:51, 6 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Discord&diff=2222757</id> <title>RationalWiki:Discord</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Discord&diff=2222757"/> <updated>2020-09-05T16:57:15Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: <hr /> <div>__NOTOC__{{messagebox|info|class=mb-brainwatermark-light|While many users find the Discord servers listed below to be a useful resource, they are not officially sanctioned or controlled by the [[RationalWiki:RationalMedia Foundation|RationalMedia Foundation]].}}{{Rwnav}} '''[[Discord]]''' is a free text and voice communication app which works cross platform and in browsers. Many RationalWiki users congregate on Discord, especially the following: {{hatnote|'''Note''': These servers coexist and there is no competition between them; they just have different server cultures and moderation styles. One is not to be used to complain about the other.}} *[https://discord.gg/tm6jGbA RationalWiki Support Chat] — Support server, more focused on wiki-related issues (server moderation team is {{hint|Actually, not all moderators from the wiki use Discord, but the hierarchy is the same as the wiki's|the same from the wiki's}}) *[https://discord.gg/qaRBu98 RationalWiki Discord] — General server, less focused on wiki-related issues (server moderation team is different from the wiki's) *[https://discord.gg/4jM8HK4 RationalMedia Foundation] — unofficial server for the purpose of discussion regarding the foundation itself (no drama) The servers listed below are run by, or affiliated with RationalWiki users. * [https://discord.gg/yjS73jj /r/wikipedia] - For Wikipedia readers and redditors * [[wp:Wikipedia:Discord]] - Wikimedia Community server * [https://discord.gg/VhdYpcv Democrats (Demcord)] - A server for the US Democratic Party (Progressive/Left-leaning, non-violent leftists allowed) * [https://discord.gg/hmwKAEA Democratic Party (Free/New Demcord)] - Splinter server of Demcord (Center-leaning) Although servers for [[Encyclopædia Dramatica]], [[Uncyclopedia]], [[Conservapedia]], (and more) do exist, we advise you to take safety precautions if seeking them out. == Members == * There is a {{tl|User Discord}} userbox to display on your [[Special:MyPage|userpage]]. * We also have [[:Category:RationalWikians who use Discord]]. === List of members === {{hatnote|Add yourself here - '''do not''' add other people here '''without their permission'''.}} * [[User:Forerunner|Forerunner]] ([[User talk:Forerunner|talk]]) 15:30, 14 February 2019 (UTC) * [[User:ShiningSwordofThoughts|ShiningSwordofThoughts]] ([[User talk:ShiningSwordofThoughts|talk]]) 15:33, 14 February 2019 (UTC) *[[User:sapient_cogbag|&lt;font face=&quot;Consolas, Monospace&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;⏣sapient_cogbag⏣&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User_talk:sapient_cogbag|&lt;font face=&quot;Consolas, Monospace&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;i&gt;talk&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] 15:58, 14 February 2019 (UTC) * [[User:KleineFurry|The living oxymoron]] ([[User talk:KleineFurry|talk]]) 17:57, 14 February 2019 (UTC) * [[User:Vorarchivist|Vorarchivist]] ([[User talk:Vorarchivist|talk]]) 18:35, 14 February 2019 (UTC) * [[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 19:49, 14 February 2019 (UTC) * [[User:ReaperDawn|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#000000; color:white; padding:2px;&quot;&gt;Reaper&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:ReaperDawn|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#DC143C; color:white; padding:2px;&quot;&gt;Dawn&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:15, 14 February 2019 (UTC) * [[User:KaiserKairos|KaiserKairos]] ([[User talk:KaiserKairos|talk]]) 02:51, 15 February 2019 (UTC) * {{User:Akamia/sig}} 11:16, 15 February 2019 (UTC) * [[User:Spoony|Spoony]] ([[User talk:Spoony|talk]]) 11:49, 15 February 2019 (UTC) * [[User:TheUmbilicalCordGuy|TheUmbilicalCordGuy]] ([[User talk:TheUmbilicalCordGuy|talk]]) 06:04, 16 February 2019 (UTC) (But I go as Sir Dylan on Discord) * [[User:Hannasanarion|Hannasanarion]] ([[User talk:Hannasanarion|talk]]) 16:19, 28 February 2019 (UTC) * [[User:Noir LeSable|ℕoir LeSable]] ([[User talk:Noir LeSable|talk]]) 16:36, 28 February 2019 (UTC) * [[User:Benjaminikuta|Benjaminikuta]] ([[User talk:Benjaminikuta|talk]]) 04:04, 4 March 2019 (UTC) * [[User:NotHowThatWorks|NotHowThatWorks]] (On there as DarkProton, [[User talk:NotHowThatWorks|talk]]) 23:02, 12 March 2019 (UTC) * [[User:RoninMacbeth|RoninMacbeth]] ([[User talk:RoninMacbeth|talk]]) 06:10, 17 March 2019 (UTC) * {{User:GrammarCommie/sig}} 13:06, 2 April 2019 (UTC) * [[User:Magic Master|Magic Master]] ([[User talk:Magic Master|talk]]) 02:17, 14 April 2019 (UTC) * {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} * [[User:N7.Geth|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000080&quot;&gt;'''Legion''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:N7.Geth|&lt;span style=&quot;color##000000&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''what do you want from me''&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:13, 7 May 2019 (UTC) *[[User:Nuclear_Pasta|&lt;span style=&quot;color:blue&quot;&gt;You Won't BELIEVE What Astronomers Found In This Neutron Star!&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_Talk:Nuclear_Pasta| - &lt;span style=&quot;color:navy&quot;&gt;Number Four WILL Shock You!&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:36, 15 October 2019 (UTC) * &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Absolute Zero&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Magenta&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 18:03, 24 April 2020 (UTC) [[Category:RationalWiki]] * {{User:The Crow/sig}} 18:18, 24 April 2020 (UTC) *[[User:El_Bateador|El_Bateador]] 17:21 4 June 2020 (UTC+1) *{{User:GR/sig}} 00:48, 4 July 2020 (UTC) *[[User:Sebastian Pulido 1984|Sebastian Pulido 1984]] ([[User talk:Sebastian Pulido 1984|talk]]) 19:50 1 August 2020 (UTC) *[[User:Fowler|Fowler]] ([[User talk:Fowler|talk]]) 14:00, 12 August 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&diff=2222746</id> <title>RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&diff=2222746"/> <updated>2020-09-05T16:37:51Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Vote to remove or uphold Oxy's sysoprevoke */ <hr /> <div>{{mod talk header}} &lt;center&gt;[[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive_List|Archives for this page]]&lt;/center&gt; {{#tag:inputbox| bgcolor=transparent type=fulltext prefix=RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation break=yes width={{{width|60}}} searchbuttonlabel={{{label|Search the archives}}} }} [[File:Moderator.jpg|thumb]] __TOC__ &lt;!-- write below this line --&gt; == Dysk just nuked the Coop == LGM took away his tech rights and put him in sysoprevoke. As per procedure, we now must discuss it and decide if we want to keep it, and since the coop both was occupied and is right now out of commission, here goes. I don't really think he oughta get them back, this is probably the straightest abuse of rights as you can get. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 20:57, 27 August 2020 (UTC) {{collapse|GR trying to make this about him and LGM; also Raven asked to be banned}} :Will you coop LGM for abusing her mod rights? Or nah? {{User:GR/sig}} 21:01, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::...what mod right abuse? {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:03, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::When she unilaterally indef banned and sysoprevoked me without a cause. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Stop trying to change the subject! This is about Dysk. Why is it so hard for you to come up with a defense that does not involve using someone else as a distraction from your own conduct! Are you incapable of defending yourself?-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 21:08, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::{{ec}} Defending myself? I didn't do any of this. I am talking about the one time LGM unilaterally sysoprevoked me and indef banned without a proper cause.[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&amp;type=block&amp;user=&amp;page=GR&amp;year=&amp;month=-1&amp;tagfilter=&amp;hide_tag_log=1] {{User:GR/sig}} 21:10, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Good. Now explain why that is relevant to this case. &quot;This other person did something&quot; is not a valid defense in this scenario.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 21:12, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::Well she has a habit of misbehaving. So I don't think it's okay for her to point fingers at anyone when she is dripping mud from head to feet. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:13, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::{{ping|GR}} Jesus christ man, he fucking NUKED THE COOP. Sorry if I don't give 2 flying shits about your cheap whataboutism on LGM. You got sysoprevoked for trying to restore Dysk's sysop rights after he got sysoprevoked, go cry a river. Also, I forgot to provide logs since I didn't want the procedural shit to get bogged by &quot;waah LGM removed my rights without process&quot;. CS has shit on this, I've said it plenty. Either way, here is [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&amp;type=suppress&amp;user=&amp;page=RationalWiki%3AChicken+coop&amp;year=&amp;month=-1&amp;tagfilter=&amp;hide_patrol_log=1&amp;hide_tag_log=1 the Suppression Log]. He literally can't claim that he didn't do it, the logs prove it. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:09, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::I also don't really care about your tantrum, I am talking about mod abuse. Malicious actions that are serious. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:11, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Cut the whataboutism crap. Unless you have something relevant to say about Dysk's actions, may I recommend you just shut up. This isn't about you, so stop putting your ego in the door. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:13, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::Indeed it isn't about me, it's about LGM's repeated offences against CS. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:14, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::No it isn't, this is about Dysk. Now unless you have something actually useful to add, I'm gonna recommend someone protect this page to be sysop only because you're trying to distract and make this about you. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:16, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Well yeah, gotta suppress those who want transparency. Gotcha. Gotta defend bad actors when you're one. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:17, 27 August 2020 (UTC) {{collapse end}} : For the record, I’m fully in favour of Sysoprevoking Dysk after that stunt (about 20,000 edits got suppressed). For the sake of transparency in the aftermath I removed the rights from a [[User:Judge Dredd|bot]] he set up just today (no idea what it was for) and in my opinion that should remain the same. I also removed the tech rights from [[User:Ze]], given that she’s Dysk’s sister and involved in the recent drama (though seemingly not involved in Dyskgate). I’ll leave it up to the others to decide if she gets tech back. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 21:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::I'd suggest keeping a close eye on Ze, although I hope she wasn't involved and this is just Dysk going rogue on his own. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:09, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::Hopefully it was an error or misunderstanding. I'm curious to see what the explanation was.[[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:16, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::It probably was a fatfinger. No idea. Maybe. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:18, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::Are we ever going to talk about the mod abuses of LGM, though? {{User:GR/sig}} 21:18, 27 August 2020 (UTC) (edit conflict)So, I would wait for Dysk to provide an explanation just because this might be a monumental technical fuck-up...but it had better be a pretty damn good explanation. Also, will everyone please ignore GR and his sad attempts to derail the conversation?-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 21:20, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::I have mostly stayed out of the GR business... except for now. Dude, fuck off - this isn't about you. Stay on topic or fuck right off. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 21:21, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::I didn't do anything though, Ace? {{User:GR/sig}} 21:24, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Yes you did - you turned a section about someone else's behaviour into a grievance of you own. Don't do that. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:29, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::It isn't about me. It's about LGM. She has a pattern of abusing her power. People here only look at the reactions of the attacked faction (like Dysk) but never care about what caused the reaction (like LGM consistently applying dishonest and hostile tactics). {{User:GR/sig}} 22:32, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::For fucks sake you fucking daft dick. This was a section about Dysk and only Dsyk until you rode in and shooting your face off about some spat your having with LGM. This is fucking simple - take your bullshit elsewhere. This section is about Dysk you numb nuts. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 23:16, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :Since I just had to fold the bit with evidence, here is [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&amp;type=suppress&amp;user=&amp;page=RationalWiki%3AChicken+coop&amp;year=&amp;month=-1&amp;tagfilter=&amp;hide_patrol_log=1&amp;hide_tag_log=1 the Suppression Log] again. It has evidence for his actions. Also, I just collapsed GRs comments. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:23, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::Remove D’s tech rights. You don’t get to pull that shit. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:24, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::He's a staff member. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:25, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Doesn’t mean shit. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:26, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::{{ping|DuceMoosolini}} LGM did. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:27, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::Fucking good. D has displayed serious impulse control issues and obviously cannot be trusted. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:28, 27 August 2020 (UTC) {{od}} That page was annoying me intensely. In a moment of anger I clicked a button to make it disappear. My bad. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:57, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :Well, regarding issues with impulse control, remember when someone told people in saloon bar &quot;fucking ass shits, get covid and die&quot;? That person has yet to be punished. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:59, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::@GR- fucking dead horses is alright with you, we know. Beating them too, apparently? @Dysk, I forgive you for your easily rectified outburst. We're only human--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 22:46, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::necrozoophilia, huh. {{User:GR/sig}} 22:54, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::(edit conflict) I will assume Dysk made an honest mistake, but the deletion itself is a deliberate choice done in bad judgement, and the suppression so it didn't show in the logs was also a big, fatal mistake that happened that required a moderator to step in and fix. Regardless, the tech role is a big responsibility and Dysk has failed to honor this through impulse, so while mistakes can be forgiven, Dysk should not have the tech responsibility, not for a very long time, if ever again. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 22:57, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::I don't see how this has very much gravity as a standalone incident. If you can demonstrate that Dysk has a history of pulling such stunts I am willing to listen but otherwise this is a harmless, easily undone fluke-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 23:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::That self-awareness right now... {{User:GR/sig}} 22:59, 27 August 2020 (UTC) {{od}} I presume that putting vaguely related users, who did nothing, in sysoprevoke isn't a mistake... oh wait, I can't talk about that... of course I agree with the basic principle, that deleting a page is a unforgivable action of grave importance, as the 5 seconds it takes to press the restore button is a tragic loss of administrative time, truly worthy of permanent censure. Carry on. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 23:16, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :I'm asking, why do we give out tech rights? Why do we restrict page suppresion, why is Dysk allowed to delete a page with 2,000+ revisions and the normal sysop can't? Why do we not grant block rights to people who can't be trusted to have block rights, as blocks are easily undone? Page suppression is not to be used really lightly, and it takes a moderator to undo the suppression and also try to view the suppression logs. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 23:25, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::Why are you asking? I assume as a mod you would know what the answers are. In any case. Tech rights are given to people who want to use the edit filter, sitenotice, et al. We do routinely give block rights to people who can't be trusted with it, but, imagining for a moment we didn't do that, it would be to avoid users being unnecessarily expelled from the wiki. The bigdelete restriction on deletion is due to the possibility of very large deletions (eg: the saloon bar) taking out the database accidentally by overloading it. This would be a Bad Thing™. Page suppression is eh, tech/mod level delete, functionality is identical. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 00:06, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :::I'm not asking for an explanation of what the tools do and whatnot, I am asking, why do people ask for tech rights, why do we grant or reject their requests? And I will argue, that all blocks are easily undone too. Why do you think some people don't deserve block rights if blocks can just be undone? And yes, there's a restriction on bigdelete because it has serious consequences if abused, on top of the revdel abuse. What's stopping you from attempting to bigdelete Saloon Bar? I do not trust you from refraining from your impulses. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 00:27, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::::This was a one-time fuckup and he admitted wrong-doing. He is a good faith user and ought to be treated as such.--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 00:39, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :::::They also reverted LGM's sysoprevoke of GR, done, I presume, to enforce a temporary block. Techs should not countermand moderators, that's what the coop is for.[[User:Ariel31459|Ariel31459]] ([[User talk:Ariel31459|talk]]) 00:51, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Infinite block Ariel, and without following due process. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 00:54, 28 August 2020 (UTC) {{od}} Eh LGM, I would grant certain sysop rights to everyone including BoNs if I could... I think everyone should have block rights equally, the very principle of dividing sysops, mods, techs, and editors is distasteful to me. I could argue that this is a form of fascism, directly responsible for many HCM events, and so forth... the wiki would be fairer if there were no techs, no mods, no sysops, and editors gained rights automatically over time. Bans could be enacted via a voting extension, the details are not unworkable, of course it's not the situation here on this wiki right now. Putting my ideologically guided thoughts to one side, what are you saying here? I told you I agreed with your decision already, I don't doubt for a moment that I would have done the same. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 00:54, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :That wasn't clear that you agreed with my decision. I am asking to explain your reasoning on why some rights are restricted, even if they seem like they can be easily undone, including page suppression from sysops. I'm sorry if I didn't come clearly. By the way, I don't think your idea of RationalWiki will work; I think we need some form of power difference to prevent abuse. I believe RationalWiki started as this but established moderators/crats as soon as issues cropped up. I do not see anything closely resembling fascism; I see a bunch of people with nearly equal rights as another fighting over what and what shouldn't be done. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 01:02, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::I wrote the following: :::&quot;&quot; ''of course I agree with the basic principle, that deleting a page is a unforgivable action of grave importance, as the 5 seconds it takes to press the restore button is a tragic loss of administrative time, truly worthy of permanent censure. Carry on.'' &quot;&quot; ::Mayhaps this came over as sarcasm? The rest of my commentary here is my attempt at explaining I don't think userrights should be restricted as they are, that power imbalance is unnecessary hirachary (fascism), that you seem to have overreated to a momentary fuck-up in terms of your related actions, and of course a certain amount of confusion as a result. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 01:32, 28 August 2020 (UTC) {{trollcollapse}} You know how you ranted about editor retention issues? What the fuck have you done in mainspace of late? And you had rights to nuke the coup and stir up plenty of drama prior to that. Yeah, my opinion on your bullshit right now is pretty low. If you aren't contributing to the Wiki and are an actual net negative at this point, shut the fuck up. [[Special:Contributions/72.184.174.199|72.184.174.199]] ([[User talk:72.184.174.199|talk]]) 13:18, 28 August 2020 (UTC) {{collapseend}} :I ranted about editor retention because I quit the site in 2019 over an unrelated issue. Yeah I never returned from that LANCB, I ain't here now insofar as I have no intention of contributing. My presence as it is, is merely assisting the wiki in surviving via my maintaince of the edit filter for a year or however long, polishing a few bells and whistles, and seeing if I can get a few asshats to see reason once in a while. Oh yeah I'm on the board cause the fucking software needs updating. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 02:27, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :Dysk, I don't think that expressing your tangential desire to grant Sysop to all-comers exactly helps your case. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 01:53, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::Of course, you are a liberal. Indeed you never agreed with me on the nature of that permission. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 02:19, 30 August 2020 (UTC) == Mod abuses == I wanted to ask if there will be any time in which the mod abuses of LGM will be discussed? She unilaterally indef blocked me and sysoprevoked me previously without proper cause nor notifying ATIM. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&amp;type=block&amp;user=&amp;page=GR&amp;year=&amp;month=-1&amp;tagfilter=&amp;hide_tag_log=1] {{User:GR/sig}} 21:22, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :Mod elections. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:25, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::Alright. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:26, 27 August 2020 (UTC) So...when will all the previous 13 threads be archived, may I ask? This page is getting rather long.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 18:51, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :Feel free. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 02:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC) == Useless edit by sysop adds slur == Can we not do [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Vaush&amp;type=revision&amp;diff=2219164&amp;oldid=2219163 this]? --[[User:Aurelia|Aurelia]] ([[User talk:Aurelia|talk]]) 09:04, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :If you read the paragraph, you'll see that it's not a slur because the accusations really were dumb. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 10:46, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::It's still a superfluous edit using a word that some people consider a slur. If you wanna haha own me in here by saying slurs aren't slurs when they're accurate, or that I'm an oversensitive wokescold, maybe RationalWiki is not the place I thought it was and I'll happily go away and you'll never hear from me again. Otherwise: The paragraph provides enough information that an outright value judgement in the title is really just making the article worse. --[[User:Aurelia|Aurelia]] ([[User talk:Aurelia|talk]]) 13:21, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :::I've undone it. Seems unnecessary to me, but why the need for moderator action? [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 13:52, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::::I'm somewhat bit unfamiliar with how RationalWiki works. It seems Sysop is given out more lightly than other wikis, and does not even closely confer the authority usually associated with the role. My apologies. --[[User:Aurelia|Aurelia]] ([[User talk:Aurelia|talk]]) 14:03, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :I'd say that while the status of the word dumb as a slur is... contentious IMHO (this goes in the territory of &quot;are most of the words we use to describe really bad notions/ideas slurs&quot;, in which case, yes, but I'd argue that &quot;dumb&quot; is so far removed from that context that it's not really a slur anymore), the edit is rather useless. It adds an opinion that the content of the article does not reflect in and of itself (rather it explains the incident), so it probably shouldn't be in there. Also, feel free to dispute any section. Normally we use the article's talkpage to do that, not ATIM though. ATIM is more for larger problems between users (so that mods can come in and try to mediate) or dealing with rights abuses. Anyway, it seems like Kiko removed the section, so it's no longer a problem. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 14:24, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::Even if one accepts the idea that it's a slur, it's not directed at either a sysop or a group of people (gender, sexual orientation, nationality, ethnicity, etc.) It's equivalent to 'dumb idea'. If we can't say that, we're fucked. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 16:42, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :::Lol, imagine thinking dumb is a &quot;slur&quot;. Please. People need to get the fuck over themselves. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 16:44, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Semantics is not a hot topic around here. If by &quot;dumb&quot; one means, &quot;this says little or nothing,&quot; then it is a fairly consistent usage with the adjective, &quot;dumb.&quot; The verb &quot;to dumb-down,&quot; essentially means to say less, usually for people who don't want to or can't understand more. Dumb as a synonym for stupid, is a mostly harmless though questionable usage. [[Special:Contributions/71.174.3.97|71.174.3.97]] ([[User talk:71.174.3.97|talk]]) 18:06, 28 August 2020 (UTC) == Sysoprevoke == I'm in it, I demand to be let out of it. There was no vote, it would be highly irregular given the circumstances to maintain a sanction of this nature beyond the short term, it's disproportionate and unrelated to my recent heat-of-the-moment deletion of your second favourite page. In short, it should not stand. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 02:17, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :I agree - if he didn’t abuse his sysop rights then he shouldn’t had them taken away on someone’s whim. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 02:20, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::Wait until the Coop case is over and in the meantime make constructive edits and try to be nice about asking stuff back. I do not trust you anything beyond autopatrol. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 02:23, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::Cool, I don't trust you with mod. That whole trust thing, it is how it is, not greatly important to the situation. As for being nice, this is me being nice... {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 02:32, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::At the risk of stepping into a fight… Since LGM and D are going to be working together on the Board, perhaps it would be a good idea for you two to at least come to some sort of détente? [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 03:09, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::::I appreciate the attempt at diplomacy but I believe Dysk assumes bad faith from me and cannot take suggestions for improvement without firing passive-aggressive at me some more, and I find this nearly impossible to work with. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 03:14, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::LGM I strongly disagree with many of your recent decisions as a mod, the last time it was Kazitor, this time it's Raven. I'm not offering you any suggestions for improvement, it's a difference of opinion, a subjective matter of judgment. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 03:50, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::I have acknowledged Kazitor's claims of not disagreeing with my behavior but [[Essay talk:RationalWiki has an image problem|Kazitor was referring to my actions toward a bigoted anti-LGBT member]]. Whatever conclusion Kazitor has formed about my behavior is highly undermined that the interaction involved someone that was viciously attacking a sexual identity I happen to have ([https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Scott_Hayward as well as more vile behavior toward gay and trans people]). I rather people stop citing Kazitor as a legitimate criticism on my behavior considering the subject matter Kazitor believes is &quot;up for debate&quot; is some of the most vile, personal, and unpleasant things I had to endure, and I also do not believe Raven's criticisms have any merit. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 04:10, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Yeah the way you think about Raven is the way I think about you. This is a two-way street. As for Kazitor... you drove him off the wiki. Funny how you do that. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 04:19, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::I do not believe how I acted is anywhere near comparable to Raven's behavior. I do not think I have to even begin to try to draw the comparisons. As for Kazitor, as I stated, Kazitor was really selective in what examples they did pick to illustrate the narrative of hostile moderators ([[Essay:RationalWiki has an image problem|the essay itself is short is and is devoid of examples beyond that one incident]]). Kazitor was upset at me being upset at [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Asexuality&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1986539 this comment], [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Asexuality&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1986538 this comment] [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Asexuality&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1986531 this comment] [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Asexuality&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1986533 that] had me react with hostility to. If Kazitor believes these comments are in any way acceptable for the sake of [[RationalWiki:Constructive dialogue]] I do not believe Kazitor's complaints are valid, and I am not troubled by Kazitor leaving over this. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 04:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::Yeah you don't care about the thoughts of others, and willfully disregard the principle of free speech. I get it. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 05:01, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::That's not true. Kazitor could've used any other example, but Kazitor, limited by very short length of the essay, was being selective about those examples. It's a short essay. Kazitor could've picked other examples, but the one example Kazitor chose involved a bigot that rubbed on my wounds from being asexual, and that bigot would've violated community standards by making homophobic remarks. It's far from the best example. I tried to take Kazitor seriously at the time, rethinking about the wiki approach to people (I might have even brought up civility standards and I think I've thought about it a few times), and I even remember at the time being disappointed Kazitor left and leaving a message saying I'll miss them. Again, Kazitor's conclusion had a point, but Kazitor's example is bad and undermined that point. In other words, wasn't helpful to me and I was left wondering what else was Kazitor was thinking about and being disappointed that I couldn't get more examples. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 05:14, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :I agree. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 02:29, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :D should not have sysop. This wasn’t a little mistake, he misused tools to suppress an entire page of debate. He’d do it again too, by harassing people with repeated blocks or deleting the same page over and over again or using some other means of undermining this site and it’s users. He has shown himself to be a hostile element, no better than a troll. His petulant “demand” and antagonism towards someone he theoretically should be pledged to work with also shows this. D has no respect for the wiki or its users, and he means us harm. No sysop. It’s not like he even needs it for anything. It wouldn’t be worth the constant supervision he’d need.{{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 03:17, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::I did have some trepidation in agreeing to unrevoke D, mainly because he was unwilling to explain his actions. By détente, I was thinking of some circumscription around D's editing activities, and mutually agreed upon civility. Maybe I was too quick to agree if this bare minimum can't be agreed upon? [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 03:24, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::I suggested D to wait until the coop is over and in the meantime do some constructive edits to show how sysop tools will help them. I got met with hostility, though. Are my suggestions inappropriate? I can explain why I do not trust Dysk with sysop tools, namely because they have misused deletion and page visibility privileges on a large, public page on a whim and cannot be trusted to handle any pages while having access to the delete button. This is on top of block privileges they have used repeatedly on Crow despite being outlined in the Community Standards that advises against disruptive repeated blocking. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 03:27, 30 August 2020 (UTC) The amount of bad faith here is hilarious. You are clearly using your own ideas of future events, as the base for your opinions. I admit, it was a clear example of tech abuse to delete your second favourite page, I freely admit that was my bad. The idea I mean the wiki harm is... interesting, yet false. I've never said anything to anyone which could give that impression. You made it up yourself. In the meantime I am asking for you to remove sysoprevoke, largely because it's a barrier for the upcoming mod elections... which you would no doubt prefer I didn't run for. That is why I must be pushy on this, apologies if it interferes with your master-plan or some shite. As for constructive edits? Gee, I created most of the current edit filters, and was the only one maintaining them for a fair chunk of time. I got onto the RationalMedia Foundation board, admittedly for the sole purpose of getting slacking sysadmins to install software. I created a few pages here and there as I recall. In any case, I'm not asking for sysop, I'm asking you to remove sysoprevoke. Not for any need to have tools, merely because there are associated restrictions. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 03:43, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :I'm not sure why you believe that it's ridiculous that inferring from your prior judgement you cannot be trusted to change that judgement later on. Admitting your mistakes is only a part of the effort to get people's trust back; actually owning up to the consequences and not demanding favors from others is another. I do not see how your insistence on referring to the chicken coop as &quot;your second-favorite page&quot; is endearing or helping you get your tools back. As for sysoprevoke being a barrier to the upcoming mod elections, the elections will not happen a few months from now; you were lucky you didn't attempt to pull off massive page deletion during November. If you cannot provide a compelling case for enough people to get you out of sysoprevoke (see my suggestions: edit the wiki, wait until the Chicken Coop comes over, exercise basic respect for others) then that's on you and you will have to accept not being able to attend the mod elections. It is not about &quot;interfering with the master-plan or some shit&quot; (ignoring the more unnecessary passive-aggressive jabs at me). As for the edit filters, while you have created them you're the one that decided to abuse your tech powers and lose them. If they need maintenance and you cannot access them because of your prior bad judgement, it's ''you'' that left people not trusting of your capabilities. :In fact your recent attempt to delete the Coop as well as the constant hostility and passive-aggressive remarks (&quot;Gee,&quot; &quot;slacking sysadmins&quot;, &quot;apologies if it interferes with your master-plan or some shite&quot;, &quot;the amount of bad faith here is hilarious&quot;, &quot;you are clearly[...]; this is only for this thread) after the fact makes you even less trustworthy to handle anything mod elections. I still am not convinced you should get your tools back. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 04:00, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::No offence, it's not your right to decide that. If you want to prohibit me standing in the mod elections, you are going to have to make a vote here to put me in sysoprevoke. Because right now, at this time, there is no community action confirming it. As for your master-plan as I put it... tell GC and your friends on Discord I said hi, cause I read the whole channel and woop, that was some hell of a read. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 04:10, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::No but it'll help if you try convincing me to take you out of sysoprevoke. I do not &quot;want&quot; to prohibit you from participating mod elections. I want to make sure you establish trust again. I have made suggestions already on how you can win my trust back, which can make a difference in you getting your rights or not. We don't know yet if I'm adequately representative of what moderators think should happen to you, but you need to assume I am to make a better case for you. So far, I am not compelled by your case of you not editing the wiki because you're more interested in your plans to install software or update the filters. You can build trust if you edit the wiki and work from there. Yes, discussions about you have taken place in Discord. It's clear and no secret I don't take a liking to your behavior. I don't believe you talk about me with much enthusiasm in the Discord circles you frequent. I'm sure you engage in similar discussions but I'm not interested in them. I'm more visibly frustrated and angry in Discord than on RationalWiki, that is true. I don't see how this is indicative of a hidden master plan though; I want to make it clear I do not have an established means of doing whatever to you regardless what you do. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 04:19, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::I have no intention of editing the wiki, not because I'm doing other things, although I am. But, because the wiki is beyond my capacity to fix, as little more than a giant fucking trash-heap of biased and outdated pages few ever read. ::::If you dislike my behaviour, you might do well to understand why I'm acting this way... you know, I've been extremely angry at multiple points, for the effect this has had on others (not Raven) I care about, this anger is not easily resolved, when a bunch of cunts (not you) are running around, making it worse. ::::You held serious discussions on Discord, on the subject of removing me from the board, because that's clearly relevant to deleting the coop. I guess? I'll make you a deal on that, I'll resign, when my to-do list of software updates has been completed. After all, that was the only reason I got on the board. Is it hyperbolic to describe this form of plotting as a master-plan? Maybe, maybe not. I certainly consider it relevant. ::::As for timing, my point is that I want this resolved now. I won't be doing anything between now and November. I need resolution on this matter before moving forward. I'm aware that I lost some userrights due to my own inappropriate action, but I have no intention of publicly explaining the exact goings on in my mind, as private matters are the primary concern in there. This leads me to post as I have, based on procedure, rules, proportionate actions and the like. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 04:44, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::::If you are ever going to be removed from board, you're going to have to be notified either way. At the time I am nervous interacting with you and I figure you'll be nervous and/or having reservations about interacting with me. But again, I have reservations about your overall ability to judge. I have lingering thoughts that you'll be able to put wiki matters behind and try to cooperate with board meetings. I imagine if I hear you I'll try to be pleasant and civil to my ability. I can't imagine trying to give off passive aggressive remarks. :::::I'm not sure how else you can demonstrate trust with me then. I'm trying to think of ways you can show trust or at least try to make an effort about moving on from the incident. Editing the wiki and engaging/responding in content disputes is a simple way of showing activity and participation. If you can propose me something else you can do to help me trust you, I'll listen. I'll try to bite back possible reservations. :::::I believe your anger is valid. I can imagine the frustration of having users talk some harsh, if not outright nasty stuff about you and then having your rights taken off immediately for a mistake you believe to not be serious. It's draining, and it affects your mood in the day. Perhaps this only confirms your suspicions that the wiki is a big circle jerk and laughs at people rather than being constructive and being a collaborative topic. I've seen how Raven was treated right when he joined. I tried to come to his defense when Oxyaeana came in and attacked for not really justifiable reasons. Some users admitted they really don't like Raven and distrust him, which might added to some dripping hostility that Raven responded with. I felt sympathetic for Raven when he met so much resistance at the beginning. I tried to extend a wing for him and tried to help him navigate through content disputes. The frustration is really there, being seemingly unable to contribute anything while people keep undoing your edits. :::::Hmmm, well, if you can't explain what's exactly going on in your mind, you'll have to risk having others like me make incorrect assumptions about you. I notice you asked me to understand you but it will help if you did explain your emotions and thought-processes. Anyhow I figure your plans sound reasonable enough, and I'm now inching to more getting you your tools on. I don't blame you if you think this is a master plan on my end, but I'm just venting a lot in the end and Discord is just a place I vent, and people sometimes give me more helpful advice on how to express to you. I could've done a lot worse on the spur of high emotions but I was told to hold off. Anyhow, at least let me know if you're feeling all right though. I'm feeling a little better talking to you about this. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 05:01, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :I would like to voice my support for Dysk getting his sysop rights back, as this was never voted on and sysoprevoke must be voted on. I'd also like to see him get his tech rights back, if only for the sake of forgiveness and mercy in the face of a rare mistake--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:42, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::Double standards noted. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 10:28, 30 August 2020 (UTC) Dysk should not be let out of sysoprevoke, at least not yet. Give it time.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 12:10, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :Then follow the procedure to vote on putting me in sysoprevoke as required. Nobody has the right to unilaterally put another user in sysoprevoke permanently, or for an undefined non-emergency period of time. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 00:57, 31 August 2020 (UTC) == Request to get sysop back == I think I've improved substantially, and I think that my conduct during the latest dispute with Raven, including making peace and being civil with him, shows favor on my record. I hereby request to have sysop back, even if only to not feel left out considering how most active users have sysop. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 10:33, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :That doesn't look like a sufficient reason to be granted sysop. Why should you be given it? [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 15:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::Oxy, as recently as August 20, you called GR a &quot;miserable piece of shit.&quot;[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Oxyaena&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2215894] ([[:RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive108#Oxyaena]]) Is it so hard for you to not resort to name calling? [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 16:51, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::I made peace with Raven after that, and I have been relatively civil since then. {{ping|Flandres}} and {{ping|The Crow}} can attest to that. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 20:26, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Leaving Raven to his own devices ain't making peace in my book. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 00:54, 31 August 2020 (UTC) :::::Not this shit again. There was a vote on this only a month ago and you lost. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 03:02, 31 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Don't you remember ranting and raving about how everyone were dicks and making a big flounce on Discord because you lost a vote? [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 03:03, 31 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::Several people have changed their minds since then, and Ace, do you really need to be so unapproachable, for want of a better word? It's like every time you hear my name you instantly become hostile. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 11:53, 1 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::: I’m not being hostile. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 05:42, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :I endorse Oxy getting sysop back. Oxy’s behavior has improved quite a bit, and I think the sanction has gone on long enough. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:10, 1 September 2020 (UTC) ::I personally see her behavior as having stayed largely the same, and I can't help but mistrust her thirst for status. Also trying to put us through this process every. single. month. Does not speak to her maturity--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:11, 1 September 2020 (UTC) :::I genuinely think it’s less about power and more about feeling put out that everyone has sysop and she doesn’t. There’s a reason the user rights request page exists. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:14, 1 September 2020 (UTC) ::::That's exactly it. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:38, 1 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Oxy has definitely improved but I don't think the community is ready yet to give it back. I think a few more weeks without any serious conflicts and the community will agree to it. BTW Oxy, asking people every week to get it back will make some people vote against it. I'd recommend waiting four weeks or so. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:39, 1 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Oxy last time you also said people had changed their minds and there needed to be a vote. You didn't get your way and had a '''huge''' fucking meltdown. That's why I do not endorse you getting your rights back - when things don't go your way you blame everyone else, quit multiple times, get really fucking abusive and the cycle restarts. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 21:56, 1 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}My stance is known. Ronins sanctions and the assumption that she doesn't melt down again during a second vote, as per the last time this was brought up. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 22:11, 1 September 2020 (UTC) : Given the nature and seriousness of Oxyaena's misconduct as a sysop, I will continue opposing these requests until she admits what she did and we can talk about it with her losing her cool. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 22:46, 1 September 2020 (UTC) ::Oxyaena, I'd really recommend that you don't ask again until January at the earliest. Until then, keep your nose clean and walk away from trouble if you can. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 06:58, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::I agree with Spud. Oxy, you voted for the change in community standards ([[:RationalWiki talk:Community Standards/Archive21]]), which included [[Civility|civil]] discussion. Yet, you did not act civilly with regard to the GR dispute. Being uncivil can cause needless escalations and grief for people not initially involved. It's great that you are now at peace with GR, but not being a source of escalation in the first place shows greater maturity. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:18, 2 September 2020 (UTC) == Vote on Dysk == {{Vote closed|Slight majority (11 to 9) in favor of just warning Dysk not to do it again and leaving the sanction as a week or so in sysoprevoke (time served) with many of the votes the other way calling for a very limited sanction and in substantial agreement}} Since y'all need to vote on this, here goes. A couple of days ago, I got pissed at a few unnamed users here on this wiki, and decided to use the Tech powerz I had to suppress (a form of deletion) the Chicken Coop. Obviously this was a somewhat inappropriate way to act under the circumstances, thankfully around an hour later this page was restored by LGM, and normal business resumed. Now for deciding on the sanction I get for this, I have arranged a vote below. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:20, 31 August 2020 (UTC) === Remove tech === # === Remove tech, and sysoprevoke === #I don't think Dysk should get tech rights considering the impulsive actions. Sysop rights are more negotiable but I'm not opposed restoring rights at the sysop level sooner than tech. What's making me hesitate was that Dysk did not use a delete action properly (sysops can delete pages; if Dysk used tech powers to delete and suppress the Chicken Coop, I doubt Dysk can refrain from using basic delete tools under heavy pressure), and Dysk also engaged in disruptive blocking of one user despite repeated requests to stop. ([[RationalWiki:Blocking_policy#Joke_blocks]] states &quot;overuse of minute-plus blocks, or blocks against sysops in the middle of editing, are never appreciated by the blockee&quot;). Heck, I'm not opposed to omitting sysoprevoke compared to just Dysk simply not having any sysop rights. Dysk has to do more than just promise this won't happen again, though; I'd like to see them live out maybe a week or more without the rights which is long enough to feel consequences of impulsive actions, which is to hopefully have them thinking twice before acting on impulse, even if it's not long enough to drastically change habits. This length span also should be long enough before elections so Dysk can participate in them as needed. Permaban is way too harsh and not appropriate given the action, while disruptive, is not destructive enough for this. A warning, on the other hand, implies Dysk can follow through the warning, which I don't think really addresses the behavior as Dysk had opportunities to accept being told that their actions are inappropriate and they didn't react accordingly. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 21:55, 31 August 2020 (UTC) #Cosign LGM. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 22:02, 31 August 2020 (UTC) #Regrettable, but I think necessary. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 22:39, 31 August 2020 (UTC) #I'd like to echo all the sentiments above. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 23:34, 31 August 2020 (UTC) #I don't take pleasure in voting this and I only do so under the stipulation that this is super temporary and that it is returned at the first sign of conciliation. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:01, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #:{{ping|Shabidoo}} in this vote, temporary sysoprevoke is the warning and do nothing section, because dysk has been in sysoprevoke for a while already based on LGM doing it unilaterally. You are voting for a permanent sanction even if your words are different. {{User:Ze/?}} 20:13, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 00:54, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #With Shabi. Sysop can be returned upon request anytime from my perspective from let's say... the first day of October onwards. On request only, I don't think anyone should be required to monitor it. As far as tech goes, I feel he kinda blew his chance at it for a longer while. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 22:19, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #Concur. —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:07, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #[[User:Scream!!|Scream!!]] ([[User talk:Scream!!|talk]]) 22:22, 3 September 2020 (UTC) === Perma-ban === # === 3 month block === # === Warning and do nothing === #A single mark on an otherwise spotless record. This is a good faith user and ought to be treated as such--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 22:32, 31 August 2020 (UTC) #:In the spirit of ambiguity, since Dysk is already in sysoprevoke, are you voting to leave them there?{{unsigned|Ariel31459}} #::He should ''definitely'' be taken out of sysoprevoke as he was put there unilaterally and he never abused his sysop rights--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 16:49, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #::: I'm gonna assume this action is remove sysoprevoke. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 19:00, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #I see little reason to question his trustworthiness overall given his longish record of being helpful, despite this easily correctable lapse in judgment. Lest I get personally attacked by Oxyaena for some perceived hypocrisy here, as she is wont to do, I'll just remind people that her record of rights abuses as a sysop involved pervasive lying, which should disqualify her from ever being a sysop unless and until she comes clean and discusses what she did without swearing at people she hates for calling her out. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 22:43, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #Since it's apparently the first offence of note from Dysk, I'm willing to believe a temporary insanity plead. Slap him with a trout and be done with it.[[User:Coigreach|Coigreach]] ([[User talk:Coigreach|talk]]) 07:49, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #So the user brings ''himself'' to the coop for review. He says he did wrong and we can assume that he does not intend re-offend. The purpose of any kind of &quot;punishment&quot; should be to ensure it is less likely that the offense will be repeated. I don't think it will be repeated so no action is necessary. Obviously if it is repeated then that would change. [[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|&lt;sup&gt;&quot;Life is short and (insert adjective)&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 12:12, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #Time served already in sysoprevoke should be sufficient punishment, given that D has a long history of good service, and knows he was in the wrong, and was a first time offense. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 17:10, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #Dysk wasn't trying to wreck anything as I pointed out when it happened, there were multiple far more damaging things that could have been done instead of deleting a page, undone in ten seconds easily, and his first post after it happened was to admit it was a mistake and explain it. {{User:Ze/?}} 20:09, 2 September 2020 (UTC) # &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:16, 2 September 2020 (UTC) # [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:25, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #Thanks for the show of support guys. I promise not to fuck-up again. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 16:21, 3 September 2020 (UTC) #Another leftwing fascist coup thwarted. [[User:RobSmith|nobs]][[User talk:RobSmith|&lt;sup&gt;Black Guns Matter&lt;/sup&gt;]] 03:43, 5 September 2020 (UTC) #:D fucking cooped himself, you fucking ignorant arsehole! [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 04:52, 5 September 2020 (UTC) #::{{ping|Spud}} Why is that so many users on RW have an issue with profanity? Is it to reflect on how rational (or not) this site is? [[User:LT|LT]]&lt;sup&gt;'''''[[User talk:LT|May Dataclarifier be well!]]'''''&lt;/sup&gt; 04:59, 5 September 2020 (UTC) #:::It's Spud, he doesn't treat people respectfully. Just ignore (I am a lefty, to be clear, and he doesn't treat me properly either). {{User:GR/sig}} 05:02, 5 September 2020 (UTC) #::::{{ping|LT}} Your fucking Conservapedia friend Rob Smith just used the word &quot;shot&quot; a couple of fucking minutes ago. Why don't you gibe him a fucking hard rime for being a rude boy? [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) #:::::{{ping|Spud}} Is your reply meant to reflect on my point about profanity usage? [[User:LT|LT]]&lt;sup&gt;'''''[[User talk:LT|May Dataclarifier be well!]]'''''&lt;/sup&gt; 05:41, 5 September 2020 (UTC) #::::::{{ping|LT}}. Yes. &quot;Gibe&quot; was a typo for &quot;give&quot; and &quot;shot&quot; was a typo for &quot;shit&quot;. There's your answer. So fuck off and tell Rob Smith not to use rude words. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 06:13, 5 September 2020 (UTC) #GR here. Dysk is innocent of all charges. [[User:Ravenism|Ravenism]] ([[User talk:Ravenism|talk]]) 20:10, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:Invalid, this account does not meet [[RationalWiki:Eligible users]]. Account is less than three months old and has less than 75 edits. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 20:28, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::Fixed that. {{User:Ze/?}} 20:30, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:::You didn't. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Log/GR The log says created at September 2nd] I'm afraid. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 20:33, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::::What does the old account say? [[User:GR|GR]] ([[User talk:GR|talk]]) 20:34, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:::::[[RationalWiki:RationalMedia Foundation/Voter registration]] suggests that GR is eligible to vote. If necessary GR could vote by proxy using his old account anyway. {{User:Ze/?}} 20:39, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::::::Those are for the RMF, not for policy or penalty votes. And if he wants to vote, he can use his Eligible account. It is not on our end that he according to what I know of it scrambled the password and changed the email to bollocks. But if he can sign in with his ''original'' account (his second account isn't Eligible either), he can vote, sure. Not on this one, this one isn't valid. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 20:44, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:::::::because you insist I reached out to the original account and it voted by proxy. {{User:Ze/?}} 21:09, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::::::::He can't proxy vote that way. Vote still invalid and I've struck this one entirely. Cut the bullshit as well as what is now honestly really blatant meatpuppetry. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:13, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:::::::::no rule against it. {{User:Ze/?}} 21:18, 2 September 2020 (UTC) === Goat === # Baa. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:21, 31 August 2020 (UTC) # Is &quot;remove tech and sysoprevoke&quot; = &quot;remove tech and remove sysoprevoke&quot; or &quot;remove tech and implement sysoprevoke&quot;? {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 21:49, 31 August 2020 (UTC) #:Just clarify the proposition. If anyone disagrees, they can crossout their names.[[User:Ariel31459|Ariel31459]] ([[User talk:Ariel31459|talk]]) 02:34, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #:: I added a comma. That should do it if you mean both remove tech and put in sysoprevoke.[[User:Ariel31459|Ariel31459]] ([[User talk:Ariel31459|talk]]) 02:37, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #So having just accused others of off-wiki canvassing at the Community Standards, Ravenism is created and Ze unblocks herself and they both vote the same way in a poll to defend Dysk? Interesting --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 20:17, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:If canvassing isn't allowed, why is LGM, Crow, etc. allowed to do it? [[User:Ravenism|Ravenism]] ([[User talk:Ravenism|talk]]) 20:18, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::I just looked through the conversation in question (the rat-workshop channel on RatCord). I see LGM, Crow and others discussing current events on the wiki. I didn't see any vote canvassing, no encouraging people to vote either in any way. #::I would ask you why you are here? You supposedly left this wiki, scrambled your password and created a new wiki. But here you are (again), causing drama (again) presumably because your ban vote isn't likely to go through.--[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 20:25, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:::It may have had smth to do with the attempt to get rid of dysk and other rule mischief, just a thought. {{User:Ze/?}} 20:28, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::::May I recommend looking at the actual substance of this vote. We don't want to get rid of Dysk. In fact, most people supporting removing his tech right and sysoprevoke are saying that he can get sysop back fairly quickly. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 20:30, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:::::You have the tenacity to vote for permanent sysoprevoke and claim to not want to get rid of dysk. Ok. {{User:Ze/?}} 20:32, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::::::Don't forget what Crow called me. A &quot;&lt;code&gt;you dishonest little shit&lt;/code&gt;&quot; (not even punished, but promoted to tech!). [[User:GR|GR]] ([[User talk:GR|talk]]) 20:33, 2 September 2020 (UTC) It doesn't say permanent. Are you sure it's permanent? {{unsig|2600:100c:b2b0:8958:44b1:d5bf:a0a4:913b}} :Yes I'm sure and no option for temporary was proposed. {{User:Ze/?}} 21:14, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::It's not permanent, it's just a &quot;place into sysoprevoke right now&quot;, but if you look at the actual fucking description of these votes, you'll quickly realize that most people are at least willing to place him out of sysoprevoke and back into sysop pretty quickly. Jesus... {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:16, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::if its not permanent, how long is it for and where does it say that. {{User:Ze/?}} 21:20, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Check the actual votes. Also, check our policies surrounding sysoprevoke itself. It can be overturned at any point the mob thinks it should be overturned, and the mob seems to overwhelmingly agree that he can get them back fairly easily. Finally, I find there to be some dry amusement in that you say that there is an attempt to get rid of Dysk but um... ''the person who made this vote is Dysk''. So uh, unless you want to argue that the person who wants to &quot;get rid of Dysk&quot; is Dysk, then something here doesn't really add up. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:24, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::::The overwhelming support for letting me off the hook, so to speak, gives me some faith this wiki ain't completely fucked yet. Did I attempt to get rid of myself? Yeah I think I did in a subconscious way self-sabotage myself... oh well. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 16:19, 3 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Not sure I'd call it an &quot;overwhelming&quot; show of support, at this moment the vote is 8 votes to remove tech, 9 votes to keep tech (one of which is your own vote). But yes, I can't see it swinging the other way so it does look like you tech rights will end up getting restored. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 16:49, 3 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::I didn't expect any votes in favour of a lesser sanction. Furthermore, I expected ''at least someone'' to vote for a ban. The favourable response is welcome, yet unexpected. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 17:00, 3 September 2020 (UTC) {{Vote closed bottom}} I would like to remind everyone that by suppressing the entire coop, it is entirely possible that RW has been opened up to possible legal issues. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&amp;type=suppress&amp;user=&amp;page=RationalWiki%3AChicken+coop&amp;offender=&amp;year=&amp;month=-1&amp;tagfilter=&amp;subtype= Please reference the suppression logs], where notably DG suppressed a case that was &quot;potentially libelous&quot;, yet it had to be restored when unsuppressing the coop, as well as seemingly another supression by Oxy over something else before and a few minor other suppressions. Just pointing this one out. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:03, 3 September 2020 (UTC) : Assuming I get tech back at this point. I can simply check and resupress the relevant revisions. After all, I am a board member. This ain't going to take me long to fix. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 17:06, 3 September 2020 (UTC) ::Simple fix: Give Dysk tech so that he can clean it up. This isn't rocket science. {{User:GR/sig}} 17:32, 3 September 2020 (UTC) I think this a good as reason as any to continue with normal business and let peeps fix what they broke. {{User:Ze/?}} 13:48, 5 September 2020 (UTC) :Tedious tasks ahead, I guess. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 15:18, 5 September 2020 (UTC) == What the fuck is happening == LGM resigns as mod and Raven, who lancbed his way out of a coop, is back, and gets sysoprevoke removed ''and'' his tools restored. Y'all give Raven the benefit of the doubt numerous fucking times, and yet give me none, when it's been shown time and time again I`m nowhere ''near'' as bad as Raven. Seriously, what the hell? Someone just can't LANCB their way out of a coop and expect everything to be okay, not after how they treated us. LGM's gone, GC's gone, and I`m seriously considering leaving. Ugh, this wiki makes me ''sick''. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 20:42, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :Didn't you say you would stop attacking me? [[User:GR|GR]] ([[User talk:GR|talk]]) 20:43, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::I`m quite frankly ''disgusted'' at what is happening, Raven. Even you must acknowledge that part of the blame lies on your behalf. This shit would be funny if it were fictional, but it's really not. What has RW become? The circus? &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 20:45, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2220488&amp;oldid=2220486 [[User:GR|GR]] ([[User talk:GR|talk]]) 20:46, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::::[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Chicken_coop#Le_Vote And here we have 14 to 12 votes] for you to be permabanned, which you weaseled your way out of via pulling a coop. :::::Here's some diffs to remind you of your past: [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217083], [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:GR&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217044], [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fascism&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2197105], [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fascism&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2197051], and let's not forget when you insulted Flandres for being fair to you, and comparing me to Putin. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 20:51, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::In fact, let's just link to [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Chicken_coop#LeftyGreenMario_is_fed_up_with_Raven LGM's detailed, and comprehensive essay] on this subject at your coop case, which, you, again, weaseled your way out of via LANCB. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 20:53, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::If you behave like this after a supposed détente, I won't vote to give you a sysop back. Not deserved. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2220488&amp;oldid=2220486]{{User:GR/sig}} 20:58, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::I`m not blameless, but this shit wouldn't fly if it were me in question. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:00, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Raven, I don't want you angry, I want you ''gone''. Just go away, this site isn't the right site for you anyways. It'll be a lot easier on everyone if you go away quietly, none of this needs to happen. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:02, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::Are you trying to get rid of me? I got a lot of butthurt when I said this. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:10, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::Forget I said anything, it's not worth rehashing. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:15, 2 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} I won't forget it. Next time you ask for sysop I will oppose it (because of this). {{User:GR/sig}} 21:24, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :I mean, you admitted to starting drama on purpose on the Discord, so.... &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:37, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::Since you quickly undid your promise to no longer attack me, I will no longer just accept your proposals of armistice, considering this recent breach of civility. Make your words worth anything. I will no longer entertain this subject. {{User:GR/sig}} 22:18, 2 September 2020 (UTC) == Proxy votes == Hello, everyone. I hate to bother people but Godless Raven was locked out of his account again (he apparently uses randomly generated passwords that he stores on his browser. When he deletes the stored password and removes his email information from his account, this makes it impossible for him to log back in). He desires to edit from [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/GR this account.] Now, the question is, does this account have franchise? Personally, I say yes. So long as he is only voting with a single account I don't see the issue. The spirit of the law is clearly being followed, Godless Raven meets the minimum edit count and account age requirements to be a voter in policy/penalty discussions.--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:39, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :I mean sure. I don’t see why not. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 22:24, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::He just said he doesn't even want to be here, wants to leave and just wants his sysop so he can delete stuff before going away forever. Why does he need to vote then? [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:16, 3 September 2020 (UTC) :::The vote is needed because he fake-LANCBed before. If he was actually leaving, then why is GR still in the Saloon?[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/GR] [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:40, 3 September 2020 (UTC) ::::What's the problem here? {{User:GR/sig}} 18:39, 3 September 2020 (UTC) == So Dysk got all his rights back == And I`m still here languishing in sysoprevoke while Raven, a user who has worse conduct than me, is still a ninja and sysop even after he pulled a lancb to weasel his way out of a permaban. Great. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 15:43, 5 September 2020 (UTC) :Temporary sysoprevoke in your case I believe, you could make a vote on removing it now, or at a later point in time. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 15:48, 5 September 2020 (UTC) ::I object. She told me she wanted to make peace [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2220488&amp;oldid=2220486] and later attacked me yet again. {{ping|D}} {{User:GR/sig}} 15:51, 5 September 2020 (UTC) :::I'm not a mod, my comment is about the procedure of the request, the substance of the request would be decided at the vote. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 15:57, 5 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I never attacked you, Raven, my comment was about LGM. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:00, 5 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Also Raven you [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAtheism&amp;type=revision&amp;diff=2222019&amp;oldid=2222018 jumped into a conversation that you wasn't mentioned in] to try wind up Oxy, so don't act like too much of a victim. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 16:02, 5 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I commented about a talk page section about how Oxy didn't mind Stalin at the time there. Even Bongolian agreed with me. What's the problem here? {{User:GR/sig}} 16:09, 5 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::The thing about Stalin was irrelevant is the problem, you had no reason to jump in on that convo other than to wind me up. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:11, 5 September 2020 (UTC) == Vote to remove Oxy's sysoprevoke == Several people have flagged their support to restore sysop for me, and I ''have'' improved on such things. If Raven gets to keep sysop even after all he's done, why is he held to a different set of standards than me? ===Aye=== # &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 15:59, 5 September 2020 (UTC) # Let's get this rolling. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 16:37, 5 September 2020 (UTC) ===Nay=== ===Goat=== *{{ping|Scream!!}} {{ping|Bongolian}} {{ping|Ace McWicked}} I request your input on our monthly &quot;should we let oxy get sysop tools&quot; (I think it should just be dismissed and archived, honestly). {{User:GR/sig}} 16:01, 5 September 2020 (UTC) **How about you abide by the results of the Coop and leave, why do you get held to one set of standards and I don't? &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:02, 5 September 2020 (UTC) ***Also why do you not ping RWRW? Do you want to make it even more apparent you're mod shopping? &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:03, 5 September 2020 (UTC) ****(ec) ngl after the recent thread last week on this subject I don't think this will work and it should be archived because of that but if you want to go thru with it anyway then there should be some point to wait until October or November at least before doing it again. {{User:Ze/?}} 16:15, 5 September 2020 (UTC) *****So far as I'm aware, Raven is not accused of abusing sysop tools, is he? You, on the other hand, have a demonstrated record of block abuses involving both truly heavy-handed bans and a kind of persistent, self-dealing dishonesty that should disqualify you from ever being a sysop until you come clean about it. Are you ready to talk about Howe much you've lied to people here? [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 16:12, 5 September 2020 (UTC) ******You're hardly an unbiased source, and my block record ''did'' improve prior to me being sysoprevoked. How am I dishonest again? &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:14, 5 September 2020 (UTC) UTC) *******I showed that your block record was crummy up to the end. Do you really want to force me to have to go through all your bans to catalog obviously dishonest examples of you using &quot;Morris&quot; and &quot;ban evasion&quot; as ways to get rid of people you didn't like, rather than admit you didn't have checkuser and therefore had no basis for claiming a huge number of accounts were Morris without their admission (which did occasionally happen)? It seems childish to contest the point and its obvious consequences. I don't have a lot of time to spend on this, but when I do, I promise the stakes won't just be whether you get sysop back. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 16:26, 5 September 2020 (UTC) ********You realize there's such a thing as a behavioral pattern, right? &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:27, 5 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&diff=2222745</id> <title>RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&diff=2222745"/> <updated>2020-09-05T16:37:25Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Aye */ <hr /> <div>{{mod talk header}} &lt;center&gt;[[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive_List|Archives for this page]]&lt;/center&gt; {{#tag:inputbox| bgcolor=transparent type=fulltext prefix=RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation break=yes width={{{width|60}}} searchbuttonlabel={{{label|Search the archives}}} }} [[File:Moderator.jpg|thumb]] __TOC__ &lt;!-- write below this line --&gt; == Dysk just nuked the Coop == LGM took away his tech rights and put him in sysoprevoke. As per procedure, we now must discuss it and decide if we want to keep it, and since the coop both was occupied and is right now out of commission, here goes. I don't really think he oughta get them back, this is probably the straightest abuse of rights as you can get. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 20:57, 27 August 2020 (UTC) {{collapse|GR trying to make this about him and LGM; also Raven asked to be banned}} :Will you coop LGM for abusing her mod rights? Or nah? {{User:GR/sig}} 21:01, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::...what mod right abuse? {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:03, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::When she unilaterally indef banned and sysoprevoked me without a cause. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Stop trying to change the subject! This is about Dysk. Why is it so hard for you to come up with a defense that does not involve using someone else as a distraction from your own conduct! Are you incapable of defending yourself?-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 21:08, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::{{ec}} Defending myself? I didn't do any of this. I am talking about the one time LGM unilaterally sysoprevoked me and indef banned without a proper cause.[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&amp;type=block&amp;user=&amp;page=GR&amp;year=&amp;month=-1&amp;tagfilter=&amp;hide_tag_log=1] {{User:GR/sig}} 21:10, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Good. Now explain why that is relevant to this case. &quot;This other person did something&quot; is not a valid defense in this scenario.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 21:12, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::Well she has a habit of misbehaving. So I don't think it's okay for her to point fingers at anyone when she is dripping mud from head to feet. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:13, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::{{ping|GR}} Jesus christ man, he fucking NUKED THE COOP. Sorry if I don't give 2 flying shits about your cheap whataboutism on LGM. You got sysoprevoked for trying to restore Dysk's sysop rights after he got sysoprevoked, go cry a river. Also, I forgot to provide logs since I didn't want the procedural shit to get bogged by &quot;waah LGM removed my rights without process&quot;. CS has shit on this, I've said it plenty. Either way, here is [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&amp;type=suppress&amp;user=&amp;page=RationalWiki%3AChicken+coop&amp;year=&amp;month=-1&amp;tagfilter=&amp;hide_patrol_log=1&amp;hide_tag_log=1 the Suppression Log]. He literally can't claim that he didn't do it, the logs prove it. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:09, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::I also don't really care about your tantrum, I am talking about mod abuse. Malicious actions that are serious. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:11, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Cut the whataboutism crap. Unless you have something relevant to say about Dysk's actions, may I recommend you just shut up. This isn't about you, so stop putting your ego in the door. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:13, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::Indeed it isn't about me, it's about LGM's repeated offences against CS. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:14, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::No it isn't, this is about Dysk. Now unless you have something actually useful to add, I'm gonna recommend someone protect this page to be sysop only because you're trying to distract and make this about you. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:16, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Well yeah, gotta suppress those who want transparency. Gotcha. Gotta defend bad actors when you're one. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:17, 27 August 2020 (UTC) {{collapse end}} : For the record, I’m fully in favour of Sysoprevoking Dysk after that stunt (about 20,000 edits got suppressed). For the sake of transparency in the aftermath I removed the rights from a [[User:Judge Dredd|bot]] he set up just today (no idea what it was for) and in my opinion that should remain the same. I also removed the tech rights from [[User:Ze]], given that she’s Dysk’s sister and involved in the recent drama (though seemingly not involved in Dyskgate). I’ll leave it up to the others to decide if she gets tech back. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 21:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::I'd suggest keeping a close eye on Ze, although I hope she wasn't involved and this is just Dysk going rogue on his own. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:09, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::Hopefully it was an error or misunderstanding. I'm curious to see what the explanation was.[[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:16, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::It probably was a fatfinger. No idea. Maybe. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:18, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::Are we ever going to talk about the mod abuses of LGM, though? {{User:GR/sig}} 21:18, 27 August 2020 (UTC) (edit conflict)So, I would wait for Dysk to provide an explanation just because this might be a monumental technical fuck-up...but it had better be a pretty damn good explanation. Also, will everyone please ignore GR and his sad attempts to derail the conversation?-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 21:20, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::I have mostly stayed out of the GR business... except for now. Dude, fuck off - this isn't about you. Stay on topic or fuck right off. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 21:21, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::I didn't do anything though, Ace? {{User:GR/sig}} 21:24, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Yes you did - you turned a section about someone else's behaviour into a grievance of you own. Don't do that. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:29, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::It isn't about me. It's about LGM. She has a pattern of abusing her power. People here only look at the reactions of the attacked faction (like Dysk) but never care about what caused the reaction (like LGM consistently applying dishonest and hostile tactics). {{User:GR/sig}} 22:32, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::For fucks sake you fucking daft dick. This was a section about Dysk and only Dsyk until you rode in and shooting your face off about some spat your having with LGM. This is fucking simple - take your bullshit elsewhere. This section is about Dysk you numb nuts. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 23:16, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :Since I just had to fold the bit with evidence, here is [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&amp;type=suppress&amp;user=&amp;page=RationalWiki%3AChicken+coop&amp;year=&amp;month=-1&amp;tagfilter=&amp;hide_patrol_log=1&amp;hide_tag_log=1 the Suppression Log] again. It has evidence for his actions. Also, I just collapsed GRs comments. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:23, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::Remove D’s tech rights. You don’t get to pull that shit. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:24, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::He's a staff member. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:25, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Doesn’t mean shit. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:26, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::{{ping|DuceMoosolini}} LGM did. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:27, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::Fucking good. D has displayed serious impulse control issues and obviously cannot be trusted. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:28, 27 August 2020 (UTC) {{od}} That page was annoying me intensely. In a moment of anger I clicked a button to make it disappear. My bad. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:57, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :Well, regarding issues with impulse control, remember when someone told people in saloon bar &quot;fucking ass shits, get covid and die&quot;? That person has yet to be punished. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:59, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::@GR- fucking dead horses is alright with you, we know. Beating them too, apparently? @Dysk, I forgive you for your easily rectified outburst. We're only human--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 22:46, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::necrozoophilia, huh. {{User:GR/sig}} 22:54, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::(edit conflict) I will assume Dysk made an honest mistake, but the deletion itself is a deliberate choice done in bad judgement, and the suppression so it didn't show in the logs was also a big, fatal mistake that happened that required a moderator to step in and fix. Regardless, the tech role is a big responsibility and Dysk has failed to honor this through impulse, so while mistakes can be forgiven, Dysk should not have the tech responsibility, not for a very long time, if ever again. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 22:57, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::I don't see how this has very much gravity as a standalone incident. If you can demonstrate that Dysk has a history of pulling such stunts I am willing to listen but otherwise this is a harmless, easily undone fluke-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 23:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::That self-awareness right now... {{User:GR/sig}} 22:59, 27 August 2020 (UTC) {{od}} I presume that putting vaguely related users, who did nothing, in sysoprevoke isn't a mistake... oh wait, I can't talk about that... of course I agree with the basic principle, that deleting a page is a unforgivable action of grave importance, as the 5 seconds it takes to press the restore button is a tragic loss of administrative time, truly worthy of permanent censure. Carry on. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 23:16, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :I'm asking, why do we give out tech rights? Why do we restrict page suppresion, why is Dysk allowed to delete a page with 2,000+ revisions and the normal sysop can't? Why do we not grant block rights to people who can't be trusted to have block rights, as blocks are easily undone? Page suppression is not to be used really lightly, and it takes a moderator to undo the suppression and also try to view the suppression logs. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 23:25, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::Why are you asking? I assume as a mod you would know what the answers are. In any case. Tech rights are given to people who want to use the edit filter, sitenotice, et al. We do routinely give block rights to people who can't be trusted with it, but, imagining for a moment we didn't do that, it would be to avoid users being unnecessarily expelled from the wiki. The bigdelete restriction on deletion is due to the possibility of very large deletions (eg: the saloon bar) taking out the database accidentally by overloading it. This would be a Bad Thing™. Page suppression is eh, tech/mod level delete, functionality is identical. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 00:06, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :::I'm not asking for an explanation of what the tools do and whatnot, I am asking, why do people ask for tech rights, why do we grant or reject their requests? And I will argue, that all blocks are easily undone too. Why do you think some people don't deserve block rights if blocks can just be undone? And yes, there's a restriction on bigdelete because it has serious consequences if abused, on top of the revdel abuse. What's stopping you from attempting to bigdelete Saloon Bar? I do not trust you from refraining from your impulses. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 00:27, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::::This was a one-time fuckup and he admitted wrong-doing. He is a good faith user and ought to be treated as such.--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 00:39, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :::::They also reverted LGM's sysoprevoke of GR, done, I presume, to enforce a temporary block. Techs should not countermand moderators, that's what the coop is for.[[User:Ariel31459|Ariel31459]] ([[User talk:Ariel31459|talk]]) 00:51, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Infinite block Ariel, and without following due process. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 00:54, 28 August 2020 (UTC) {{od}} Eh LGM, I would grant certain sysop rights to everyone including BoNs if I could... I think everyone should have block rights equally, the very principle of dividing sysops, mods, techs, and editors is distasteful to me. I could argue that this is a form of fascism, directly responsible for many HCM events, and so forth... the wiki would be fairer if there were no techs, no mods, no sysops, and editors gained rights automatically over time. Bans could be enacted via a voting extension, the details are not unworkable, of course it's not the situation here on this wiki right now. Putting my ideologically guided thoughts to one side, what are you saying here? I told you I agreed with your decision already, I don't doubt for a moment that I would have done the same. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 00:54, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :That wasn't clear that you agreed with my decision. I am asking to explain your reasoning on why some rights are restricted, even if they seem like they can be easily undone, including page suppression from sysops. I'm sorry if I didn't come clearly. By the way, I don't think your idea of RationalWiki will work; I think we need some form of power difference to prevent abuse. I believe RationalWiki started as this but established moderators/crats as soon as issues cropped up. I do not see anything closely resembling fascism; I see a bunch of people with nearly equal rights as another fighting over what and what shouldn't be done. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 01:02, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::I wrote the following: :::&quot;&quot; ''of course I agree with the basic principle, that deleting a page is a unforgivable action of grave importance, as the 5 seconds it takes to press the restore button is a tragic loss of administrative time, truly worthy of permanent censure. Carry on.'' &quot;&quot; ::Mayhaps this came over as sarcasm? The rest of my commentary here is my attempt at explaining I don't think userrights should be restricted as they are, that power imbalance is unnecessary hirachary (fascism), that you seem to have overreated to a momentary fuck-up in terms of your related actions, and of course a certain amount of confusion as a result. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 01:32, 28 August 2020 (UTC) {{trollcollapse}} You know how you ranted about editor retention issues? What the fuck have you done in mainspace of late? And you had rights to nuke the coup and stir up plenty of drama prior to that. Yeah, my opinion on your bullshit right now is pretty low. If you aren't contributing to the Wiki and are an actual net negative at this point, shut the fuck up. [[Special:Contributions/72.184.174.199|72.184.174.199]] ([[User talk:72.184.174.199|talk]]) 13:18, 28 August 2020 (UTC) {{collapseend}} :I ranted about editor retention because I quit the site in 2019 over an unrelated issue. Yeah I never returned from that LANCB, I ain't here now insofar as I have no intention of contributing. My presence as it is, is merely assisting the wiki in surviving via my maintaince of the edit filter for a year or however long, polishing a few bells and whistles, and seeing if I can get a few asshats to see reason once in a while. Oh yeah I'm on the board cause the fucking software needs updating. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 02:27, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :Dysk, I don't think that expressing your tangential desire to grant Sysop to all-comers exactly helps your case. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 01:53, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::Of course, you are a liberal. Indeed you never agreed with me on the nature of that permission. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 02:19, 30 August 2020 (UTC) == Mod abuses == I wanted to ask if there will be any time in which the mod abuses of LGM will be discussed? She unilaterally indef blocked me and sysoprevoked me previously without proper cause nor notifying ATIM. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&amp;type=block&amp;user=&amp;page=GR&amp;year=&amp;month=-1&amp;tagfilter=&amp;hide_tag_log=1] {{User:GR/sig}} 21:22, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :Mod elections. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:25, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::Alright. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:26, 27 August 2020 (UTC) So...when will all the previous 13 threads be archived, may I ask? This page is getting rather long.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 18:51, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :Feel free. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 02:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC) == Useless edit by sysop adds slur == Can we not do [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Vaush&amp;type=revision&amp;diff=2219164&amp;oldid=2219163 this]? --[[User:Aurelia|Aurelia]] ([[User talk:Aurelia|talk]]) 09:04, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :If you read the paragraph, you'll see that it's not a slur because the accusations really were dumb. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 10:46, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::It's still a superfluous edit using a word that some people consider a slur. If you wanna haha own me in here by saying slurs aren't slurs when they're accurate, or that I'm an oversensitive wokescold, maybe RationalWiki is not the place I thought it was and I'll happily go away and you'll never hear from me again. Otherwise: The paragraph provides enough information that an outright value judgement in the title is really just making the article worse. --[[User:Aurelia|Aurelia]] ([[User talk:Aurelia|talk]]) 13:21, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :::I've undone it. Seems unnecessary to me, but why the need for moderator action? [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 13:52, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::::I'm somewhat bit unfamiliar with how RationalWiki works. It seems Sysop is given out more lightly than other wikis, and does not even closely confer the authority usually associated with the role. My apologies. --[[User:Aurelia|Aurelia]] ([[User talk:Aurelia|talk]]) 14:03, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :I'd say that while the status of the word dumb as a slur is... contentious IMHO (this goes in the territory of &quot;are most of the words we use to describe really bad notions/ideas slurs&quot;, in which case, yes, but I'd argue that &quot;dumb&quot; is so far removed from that context that it's not really a slur anymore), the edit is rather useless. It adds an opinion that the content of the article does not reflect in and of itself (rather it explains the incident), so it probably shouldn't be in there. Also, feel free to dispute any section. Normally we use the article's talkpage to do that, not ATIM though. ATIM is more for larger problems between users (so that mods can come in and try to mediate) or dealing with rights abuses. Anyway, it seems like Kiko removed the section, so it's no longer a problem. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 14:24, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::Even if one accepts the idea that it's a slur, it's not directed at either a sysop or a group of people (gender, sexual orientation, nationality, ethnicity, etc.) It's equivalent to 'dumb idea'. If we can't say that, we're fucked. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 16:42, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :::Lol, imagine thinking dumb is a &quot;slur&quot;. Please. People need to get the fuck over themselves. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 16:44, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Semantics is not a hot topic around here. If by &quot;dumb&quot; one means, &quot;this says little or nothing,&quot; then it is a fairly consistent usage with the adjective, &quot;dumb.&quot; The verb &quot;to dumb-down,&quot; essentially means to say less, usually for people who don't want to or can't understand more. Dumb as a synonym for stupid, is a mostly harmless though questionable usage. [[Special:Contributions/71.174.3.97|71.174.3.97]] ([[User talk:71.174.3.97|talk]]) 18:06, 28 August 2020 (UTC) == Sysoprevoke == I'm in it, I demand to be let out of it. There was no vote, it would be highly irregular given the circumstances to maintain a sanction of this nature beyond the short term, it's disproportionate and unrelated to my recent heat-of-the-moment deletion of your second favourite page. In short, it should not stand. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 02:17, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :I agree - if he didn’t abuse his sysop rights then he shouldn’t had them taken away on someone’s whim. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 02:20, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::Wait until the Coop case is over and in the meantime make constructive edits and try to be nice about asking stuff back. I do not trust you anything beyond autopatrol. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 02:23, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::Cool, I don't trust you with mod. That whole trust thing, it is how it is, not greatly important to the situation. As for being nice, this is me being nice... {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 02:32, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::At the risk of stepping into a fight… Since LGM and D are going to be working together on the Board, perhaps it would be a good idea for you two to at least come to some sort of détente? [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 03:09, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::::I appreciate the attempt at diplomacy but I believe Dysk assumes bad faith from me and cannot take suggestions for improvement without firing passive-aggressive at me some more, and I find this nearly impossible to work with. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 03:14, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::LGM I strongly disagree with many of your recent decisions as a mod, the last time it was Kazitor, this time it's Raven. I'm not offering you any suggestions for improvement, it's a difference of opinion, a subjective matter of judgment. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 03:50, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::I have acknowledged Kazitor's claims of not disagreeing with my behavior but [[Essay talk:RationalWiki has an image problem|Kazitor was referring to my actions toward a bigoted anti-LGBT member]]. Whatever conclusion Kazitor has formed about my behavior is highly undermined that the interaction involved someone that was viciously attacking a sexual identity I happen to have ([https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Scott_Hayward as well as more vile behavior toward gay and trans people]). I rather people stop citing Kazitor as a legitimate criticism on my behavior considering the subject matter Kazitor believes is &quot;up for debate&quot; is some of the most vile, personal, and unpleasant things I had to endure, and I also do not believe Raven's criticisms have any merit. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 04:10, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Yeah the way you think about Raven is the way I think about you. This is a two-way street. As for Kazitor... you drove him off the wiki. Funny how you do that. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 04:19, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::I do not believe how I acted is anywhere near comparable to Raven's behavior. I do not think I have to even begin to try to draw the comparisons. As for Kazitor, as I stated, Kazitor was really selective in what examples they did pick to illustrate the narrative of hostile moderators ([[Essay:RationalWiki has an image problem|the essay itself is short is and is devoid of examples beyond that one incident]]). Kazitor was upset at me being upset at [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Asexuality&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1986539 this comment], [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Asexuality&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1986538 this comment] [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Asexuality&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1986531 this comment] [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Asexuality&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1986533 that] had me react with hostility to. If Kazitor believes these comments are in any way acceptable for the sake of [[RationalWiki:Constructive dialogue]] I do not believe Kazitor's complaints are valid, and I am not troubled by Kazitor leaving over this. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 04:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::Yeah you don't care about the thoughts of others, and willfully disregard the principle of free speech. I get it. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 05:01, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::That's not true. Kazitor could've used any other example, but Kazitor, limited by very short length of the essay, was being selective about those examples. It's a short essay. Kazitor could've picked other examples, but the one example Kazitor chose involved a bigot that rubbed on my wounds from being asexual, and that bigot would've violated community standards by making homophobic remarks. It's far from the best example. I tried to take Kazitor seriously at the time, rethinking about the wiki approach to people (I might have even brought up civility standards and I think I've thought about it a few times), and I even remember at the time being disappointed Kazitor left and leaving a message saying I'll miss them. Again, Kazitor's conclusion had a point, but Kazitor's example is bad and undermined that point. In other words, wasn't helpful to me and I was left wondering what else was Kazitor was thinking about and being disappointed that I couldn't get more examples. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 05:14, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :I agree. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 02:29, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :D should not have sysop. This wasn’t a little mistake, he misused tools to suppress an entire page of debate. He’d do it again too, by harassing people with repeated blocks or deleting the same page over and over again or using some other means of undermining this site and it’s users. He has shown himself to be a hostile element, no better than a troll. His petulant “demand” and antagonism towards someone he theoretically should be pledged to work with also shows this. D has no respect for the wiki or its users, and he means us harm. No sysop. It’s not like he even needs it for anything. It wouldn’t be worth the constant supervision he’d need.{{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 03:17, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::I did have some trepidation in agreeing to unrevoke D, mainly because he was unwilling to explain his actions. By détente, I was thinking of some circumscription around D's editing activities, and mutually agreed upon civility. Maybe I was too quick to agree if this bare minimum can't be agreed upon? [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 03:24, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::I suggested D to wait until the coop is over and in the meantime do some constructive edits to show how sysop tools will help them. I got met with hostility, though. Are my suggestions inappropriate? I can explain why I do not trust Dysk with sysop tools, namely because they have misused deletion and page visibility privileges on a large, public page on a whim and cannot be trusted to handle any pages while having access to the delete button. This is on top of block privileges they have used repeatedly on Crow despite being outlined in the Community Standards that advises against disruptive repeated blocking. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 03:27, 30 August 2020 (UTC) The amount of bad faith here is hilarious. You are clearly using your own ideas of future events, as the base for your opinions. I admit, it was a clear example of tech abuse to delete your second favourite page, I freely admit that was my bad. The idea I mean the wiki harm is... interesting, yet false. I've never said anything to anyone which could give that impression. You made it up yourself. In the meantime I am asking for you to remove sysoprevoke, largely because it's a barrier for the upcoming mod elections... which you would no doubt prefer I didn't run for. That is why I must be pushy on this, apologies if it interferes with your master-plan or some shite. As for constructive edits? Gee, I created most of the current edit filters, and was the only one maintaining them for a fair chunk of time. I got onto the RationalMedia Foundation board, admittedly for the sole purpose of getting slacking sysadmins to install software. I created a few pages here and there as I recall. In any case, I'm not asking for sysop, I'm asking you to remove sysoprevoke. Not for any need to have tools, merely because there are associated restrictions. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 03:43, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :I'm not sure why you believe that it's ridiculous that inferring from your prior judgement you cannot be trusted to change that judgement later on. Admitting your mistakes is only a part of the effort to get people's trust back; actually owning up to the consequences and not demanding favors from others is another. I do not see how your insistence on referring to the chicken coop as &quot;your second-favorite page&quot; is endearing or helping you get your tools back. As for sysoprevoke being a barrier to the upcoming mod elections, the elections will not happen a few months from now; you were lucky you didn't attempt to pull off massive page deletion during November. If you cannot provide a compelling case for enough people to get you out of sysoprevoke (see my suggestions: edit the wiki, wait until the Chicken Coop comes over, exercise basic respect for others) then that's on you and you will have to accept not being able to attend the mod elections. It is not about &quot;interfering with the master-plan or some shit&quot; (ignoring the more unnecessary passive-aggressive jabs at me). As for the edit filters, while you have created them you're the one that decided to abuse your tech powers and lose them. If they need maintenance and you cannot access them because of your prior bad judgement, it's ''you'' that left people not trusting of your capabilities. :In fact your recent attempt to delete the Coop as well as the constant hostility and passive-aggressive remarks (&quot;Gee,&quot; &quot;slacking sysadmins&quot;, &quot;apologies if it interferes with your master-plan or some shite&quot;, &quot;the amount of bad faith here is hilarious&quot;, &quot;you are clearly[...]; this is only for this thread) after the fact makes you even less trustworthy to handle anything mod elections. I still am not convinced you should get your tools back. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 04:00, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::No offence, it's not your right to decide that. If you want to prohibit me standing in the mod elections, you are going to have to make a vote here to put me in sysoprevoke. Because right now, at this time, there is no community action confirming it. As for your master-plan as I put it... tell GC and your friends on Discord I said hi, cause I read the whole channel and woop, that was some hell of a read. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 04:10, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::No but it'll help if you try convincing me to take you out of sysoprevoke. I do not &quot;want&quot; to prohibit you from participating mod elections. I want to make sure you establish trust again. I have made suggestions already on how you can win my trust back, which can make a difference in you getting your rights or not. We don't know yet if I'm adequately representative of what moderators think should happen to you, but you need to assume I am to make a better case for you. So far, I am not compelled by your case of you not editing the wiki because you're more interested in your plans to install software or update the filters. You can build trust if you edit the wiki and work from there. Yes, discussions about you have taken place in Discord. It's clear and no secret I don't take a liking to your behavior. I don't believe you talk about me with much enthusiasm in the Discord circles you frequent. I'm sure you engage in similar discussions but I'm not interested in them. I'm more visibly frustrated and angry in Discord than on RationalWiki, that is true. I don't see how this is indicative of a hidden master plan though; I want to make it clear I do not have an established means of doing whatever to you regardless what you do. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 04:19, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::I have no intention of editing the wiki, not because I'm doing other things, although I am. But, because the wiki is beyond my capacity to fix, as little more than a giant fucking trash-heap of biased and outdated pages few ever read. ::::If you dislike my behaviour, you might do well to understand why I'm acting this way... you know, I've been extremely angry at multiple points, for the effect this has had on others (not Raven) I care about, this anger is not easily resolved, when a bunch of cunts (not you) are running around, making it worse. ::::You held serious discussions on Discord, on the subject of removing me from the board, because that's clearly relevant to deleting the coop. I guess? I'll make you a deal on that, I'll resign, when my to-do list of software updates has been completed. After all, that was the only reason I got on the board. Is it hyperbolic to describe this form of plotting as a master-plan? Maybe, maybe not. I certainly consider it relevant. ::::As for timing, my point is that I want this resolved now. I won't be doing anything between now and November. I need resolution on this matter before moving forward. I'm aware that I lost some userrights due to my own inappropriate action, but I have no intention of publicly explaining the exact goings on in my mind, as private matters are the primary concern in there. This leads me to post as I have, based on procedure, rules, proportionate actions and the like. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 04:44, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::::If you are ever going to be removed from board, you're going to have to be notified either way. At the time I am nervous interacting with you and I figure you'll be nervous and/or having reservations about interacting with me. But again, I have reservations about your overall ability to judge. I have lingering thoughts that you'll be able to put wiki matters behind and try to cooperate with board meetings. I imagine if I hear you I'll try to be pleasant and civil to my ability. I can't imagine trying to give off passive aggressive remarks. :::::I'm not sure how else you can demonstrate trust with me then. I'm trying to think of ways you can show trust or at least try to make an effort about moving on from the incident. Editing the wiki and engaging/responding in content disputes is a simple way of showing activity and participation. If you can propose me something else you can do to help me trust you, I'll listen. I'll try to bite back possible reservations. :::::I believe your anger is valid. I can imagine the frustration of having users talk some harsh, if not outright nasty stuff about you and then having your rights taken off immediately for a mistake you believe to not be serious. It's draining, and it affects your mood in the day. Perhaps this only confirms your suspicions that the wiki is a big circle jerk and laughs at people rather than being constructive and being a collaborative topic. I've seen how Raven was treated right when he joined. I tried to come to his defense when Oxyaeana came in and attacked for not really justifiable reasons. Some users admitted they really don't like Raven and distrust him, which might added to some dripping hostility that Raven responded with. I felt sympathetic for Raven when he met so much resistance at the beginning. I tried to extend a wing for him and tried to help him navigate through content disputes. The frustration is really there, being seemingly unable to contribute anything while people keep undoing your edits. :::::Hmmm, well, if you can't explain what's exactly going on in your mind, you'll have to risk having others like me make incorrect assumptions about you. I notice you asked me to understand you but it will help if you did explain your emotions and thought-processes. Anyhow I figure your plans sound reasonable enough, and I'm now inching to more getting you your tools on. I don't blame you if you think this is a master plan on my end, but I'm just venting a lot in the end and Discord is just a place I vent, and people sometimes give me more helpful advice on how to express to you. I could've done a lot worse on the spur of high emotions but I was told to hold off. Anyhow, at least let me know if you're feeling all right though. I'm feeling a little better talking to you about this. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 05:01, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :I would like to voice my support for Dysk getting his sysop rights back, as this was never voted on and sysoprevoke must be voted on. I'd also like to see him get his tech rights back, if only for the sake of forgiveness and mercy in the face of a rare mistake--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:42, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::Double standards noted. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 10:28, 30 August 2020 (UTC) Dysk should not be let out of sysoprevoke, at least not yet. Give it time.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 12:10, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :Then follow the procedure to vote on putting me in sysoprevoke as required. Nobody has the right to unilaterally put another user in sysoprevoke permanently, or for an undefined non-emergency period of time. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 00:57, 31 August 2020 (UTC) == Request to get sysop back == I think I've improved substantially, and I think that my conduct during the latest dispute with Raven, including making peace and being civil with him, shows favor on my record. I hereby request to have sysop back, even if only to not feel left out considering how most active users have sysop. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 10:33, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :That doesn't look like a sufficient reason to be granted sysop. Why should you be given it? [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 15:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::Oxy, as recently as August 20, you called GR a &quot;miserable piece of shit.&quot;[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Oxyaena&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2215894] ([[:RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive108#Oxyaena]]) Is it so hard for you to not resort to name calling? [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 16:51, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::I made peace with Raven after that, and I have been relatively civil since then. {{ping|Flandres}} and {{ping|The Crow}} can attest to that. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 20:26, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Leaving Raven to his own devices ain't making peace in my book. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 00:54, 31 August 2020 (UTC) :::::Not this shit again. There was a vote on this only a month ago and you lost. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 03:02, 31 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Don't you remember ranting and raving about how everyone were dicks and making a big flounce on Discord because you lost a vote? [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 03:03, 31 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::Several people have changed their minds since then, and Ace, do you really need to be so unapproachable, for want of a better word? It's like every time you hear my name you instantly become hostile. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 11:53, 1 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::: I’m not being hostile. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 05:42, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :I endorse Oxy getting sysop back. Oxy’s behavior has improved quite a bit, and I think the sanction has gone on long enough. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:10, 1 September 2020 (UTC) ::I personally see her behavior as having stayed largely the same, and I can't help but mistrust her thirst for status. Also trying to put us through this process every. single. month. Does not speak to her maturity--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:11, 1 September 2020 (UTC) :::I genuinely think it’s less about power and more about feeling put out that everyone has sysop and she doesn’t. There’s a reason the user rights request page exists. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:14, 1 September 2020 (UTC) ::::That's exactly it. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:38, 1 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Oxy has definitely improved but I don't think the community is ready yet to give it back. I think a few more weeks without any serious conflicts and the community will agree to it. BTW Oxy, asking people every week to get it back will make some people vote against it. I'd recommend waiting four weeks or so. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:39, 1 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Oxy last time you also said people had changed their minds and there needed to be a vote. You didn't get your way and had a '''huge''' fucking meltdown. That's why I do not endorse you getting your rights back - when things don't go your way you blame everyone else, quit multiple times, get really fucking abusive and the cycle restarts. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 21:56, 1 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}My stance is known. Ronins sanctions and the assumption that she doesn't melt down again during a second vote, as per the last time this was brought up. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 22:11, 1 September 2020 (UTC) : Given the nature and seriousness of Oxyaena's misconduct as a sysop, I will continue opposing these requests until she admits what she did and we can talk about it with her losing her cool. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 22:46, 1 September 2020 (UTC) ::Oxyaena, I'd really recommend that you don't ask again until January at the earliest. Until then, keep your nose clean and walk away from trouble if you can. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 06:58, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::I agree with Spud. Oxy, you voted for the change in community standards ([[:RationalWiki talk:Community Standards/Archive21]]), which included [[Civility|civil]] discussion. Yet, you did not act civilly with regard to the GR dispute. Being uncivil can cause needless escalations and grief for people not initially involved. It's great that you are now at peace with GR, but not being a source of escalation in the first place shows greater maturity. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:18, 2 September 2020 (UTC) == Vote on Dysk == {{Vote closed|Slight majority (11 to 9) in favor of just warning Dysk not to do it again and leaving the sanction as a week or so in sysoprevoke (time served) with many of the votes the other way calling for a very limited sanction and in substantial agreement}} Since y'all need to vote on this, here goes. A couple of days ago, I got pissed at a few unnamed users here on this wiki, and decided to use the Tech powerz I had to suppress (a form of deletion) the Chicken Coop. Obviously this was a somewhat inappropriate way to act under the circumstances, thankfully around an hour later this page was restored by LGM, and normal business resumed. Now for deciding on the sanction I get for this, I have arranged a vote below. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:20, 31 August 2020 (UTC) === Remove tech === # === Remove tech, and sysoprevoke === #I don't think Dysk should get tech rights considering the impulsive actions. Sysop rights are more negotiable but I'm not opposed restoring rights at the sysop level sooner than tech. What's making me hesitate was that Dysk did not use a delete action properly (sysops can delete pages; if Dysk used tech powers to delete and suppress the Chicken Coop, I doubt Dysk can refrain from using basic delete tools under heavy pressure), and Dysk also engaged in disruptive blocking of one user despite repeated requests to stop. ([[RationalWiki:Blocking_policy#Joke_blocks]] states &quot;overuse of minute-plus blocks, or blocks against sysops in the middle of editing, are never appreciated by the blockee&quot;). Heck, I'm not opposed to omitting sysoprevoke compared to just Dysk simply not having any sysop rights. Dysk has to do more than just promise this won't happen again, though; I'd like to see them live out maybe a week or more without the rights which is long enough to feel consequences of impulsive actions, which is to hopefully have them thinking twice before acting on impulse, even if it's not long enough to drastically change habits. This length span also should be long enough before elections so Dysk can participate in them as needed. Permaban is way too harsh and not appropriate given the action, while disruptive, is not destructive enough for this. A warning, on the other hand, implies Dysk can follow through the warning, which I don't think really addresses the behavior as Dysk had opportunities to accept being told that their actions are inappropriate and they didn't react accordingly. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 21:55, 31 August 2020 (UTC) #Cosign LGM. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 22:02, 31 August 2020 (UTC) #Regrettable, but I think necessary. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 22:39, 31 August 2020 (UTC) #I'd like to echo all the sentiments above. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 23:34, 31 August 2020 (UTC) #I don't take pleasure in voting this and I only do so under the stipulation that this is super temporary and that it is returned at the first sign of conciliation. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:01, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #:{{ping|Shabidoo}} in this vote, temporary sysoprevoke is the warning and do nothing section, because dysk has been in sysoprevoke for a while already based on LGM doing it unilaterally. You are voting for a permanent sanction even if your words are different. {{User:Ze/?}} 20:13, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 00:54, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #With Shabi. Sysop can be returned upon request anytime from my perspective from let's say... the first day of October onwards. On request only, I don't think anyone should be required to monitor it. As far as tech goes, I feel he kinda blew his chance at it for a longer while. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 22:19, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #Concur. —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:07, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #[[User:Scream!!|Scream!!]] ([[User talk:Scream!!|talk]]) 22:22, 3 September 2020 (UTC) === Perma-ban === # === 3 month block === # === Warning and do nothing === #A single mark on an otherwise spotless record. This is a good faith user and ought to be treated as such--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 22:32, 31 August 2020 (UTC) #:In the spirit of ambiguity, since Dysk is already in sysoprevoke, are you voting to leave them there?{{unsigned|Ariel31459}} #::He should ''definitely'' be taken out of sysoprevoke as he was put there unilaterally and he never abused his sysop rights--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 16:49, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #::: I'm gonna assume this action is remove sysoprevoke. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 19:00, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #I see little reason to question his trustworthiness overall given his longish record of being helpful, despite this easily correctable lapse in judgment. Lest I get personally attacked by Oxyaena for some perceived hypocrisy here, as she is wont to do, I'll just remind people that her record of rights abuses as a sysop involved pervasive lying, which should disqualify her from ever being a sysop unless and until she comes clean and discusses what she did without swearing at people she hates for calling her out. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 22:43, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #Since it's apparently the first offence of note from Dysk, I'm willing to believe a temporary insanity plead. Slap him with a trout and be done with it.[[User:Coigreach|Coigreach]] ([[User talk:Coigreach|talk]]) 07:49, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #So the user brings ''himself'' to the coop for review. He says he did wrong and we can assume that he does not intend re-offend. The purpose of any kind of &quot;punishment&quot; should be to ensure it is less likely that the offense will be repeated. I don't think it will be repeated so no action is necessary. Obviously if it is repeated then that would change. [[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|&lt;sup&gt;&quot;Life is short and (insert adjective)&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 12:12, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #Time served already in sysoprevoke should be sufficient punishment, given that D has a long history of good service, and knows he was in the wrong, and was a first time offense. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 17:10, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #Dysk wasn't trying to wreck anything as I pointed out when it happened, there were multiple far more damaging things that could have been done instead of deleting a page, undone in ten seconds easily, and his first post after it happened was to admit it was a mistake and explain it. {{User:Ze/?}} 20:09, 2 September 2020 (UTC) # &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:16, 2 September 2020 (UTC) # [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:25, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #Thanks for the show of support guys. I promise not to fuck-up again. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 16:21, 3 September 2020 (UTC) #Another leftwing fascist coup thwarted. [[User:RobSmith|nobs]][[User talk:RobSmith|&lt;sup&gt;Black Guns Matter&lt;/sup&gt;]] 03:43, 5 September 2020 (UTC) #:D fucking cooped himself, you fucking ignorant arsehole! [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 04:52, 5 September 2020 (UTC) #::{{ping|Spud}} Why is that so many users on RW have an issue with profanity? Is it to reflect on how rational (or not) this site is? [[User:LT|LT]]&lt;sup&gt;'''''[[User talk:LT|May Dataclarifier be well!]]'''''&lt;/sup&gt; 04:59, 5 September 2020 (UTC) #:::It's Spud, he doesn't treat people respectfully. Just ignore (I am a lefty, to be clear, and he doesn't treat me properly either). {{User:GR/sig}} 05:02, 5 September 2020 (UTC) #::::{{ping|LT}} Your fucking Conservapedia friend Rob Smith just used the word &quot;shot&quot; a couple of fucking minutes ago. Why don't you gibe him a fucking hard rime for being a rude boy? [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) #:::::{{ping|Spud}} Is your reply meant to reflect on my point about profanity usage? [[User:LT|LT]]&lt;sup&gt;'''''[[User talk:LT|May Dataclarifier be well!]]'''''&lt;/sup&gt; 05:41, 5 September 2020 (UTC) #::::::{{ping|LT}}. Yes. &quot;Gibe&quot; was a typo for &quot;give&quot; and &quot;shot&quot; was a typo for &quot;shit&quot;. There's your answer. So fuck off and tell Rob Smith not to use rude words. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 06:13, 5 September 2020 (UTC) #GR here. Dysk is innocent of all charges. [[User:Ravenism|Ravenism]] ([[User talk:Ravenism|talk]]) 20:10, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:Invalid, this account does not meet [[RationalWiki:Eligible users]]. Account is less than three months old and has less than 75 edits. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 20:28, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::Fixed that. {{User:Ze/?}} 20:30, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:::You didn't. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Log/GR The log says created at September 2nd] I'm afraid. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 20:33, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::::What does the old account say? [[User:GR|GR]] ([[User talk:GR|talk]]) 20:34, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:::::[[RationalWiki:RationalMedia Foundation/Voter registration]] suggests that GR is eligible to vote. If necessary GR could vote by proxy using his old account anyway. {{User:Ze/?}} 20:39, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::::::Those are for the RMF, not for policy or penalty votes. And if he wants to vote, he can use his Eligible account. It is not on our end that he according to what I know of it scrambled the password and changed the email to bollocks. But if he can sign in with his ''original'' account (his second account isn't Eligible either), he can vote, sure. Not on this one, this one isn't valid. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 20:44, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:::::::because you insist I reached out to the original account and it voted by proxy. {{User:Ze/?}} 21:09, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::::::::He can't proxy vote that way. Vote still invalid and I've struck this one entirely. Cut the bullshit as well as what is now honestly really blatant meatpuppetry. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:13, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:::::::::no rule against it. {{User:Ze/?}} 21:18, 2 September 2020 (UTC) === Goat === # Baa. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:21, 31 August 2020 (UTC) # Is &quot;remove tech and sysoprevoke&quot; = &quot;remove tech and remove sysoprevoke&quot; or &quot;remove tech and implement sysoprevoke&quot;? {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 21:49, 31 August 2020 (UTC) #:Just clarify the proposition. If anyone disagrees, they can crossout their names.[[User:Ariel31459|Ariel31459]] ([[User talk:Ariel31459|talk]]) 02:34, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #:: I added a comma. That should do it if you mean both remove tech and put in sysoprevoke.[[User:Ariel31459|Ariel31459]] ([[User talk:Ariel31459|talk]]) 02:37, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #So having just accused others of off-wiki canvassing at the Community Standards, Ravenism is created and Ze unblocks herself and they both vote the same way in a poll to defend Dysk? Interesting --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 20:17, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:If canvassing isn't allowed, why is LGM, Crow, etc. allowed to do it? [[User:Ravenism|Ravenism]] ([[User talk:Ravenism|talk]]) 20:18, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::I just looked through the conversation in question (the rat-workshop channel on RatCord). I see LGM, Crow and others discussing current events on the wiki. I didn't see any vote canvassing, no encouraging people to vote either in any way. #::I would ask you why you are here? You supposedly left this wiki, scrambled your password and created a new wiki. But here you are (again), causing drama (again) presumably because your ban vote isn't likely to go through.--[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 20:25, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:::It may have had smth to do with the attempt to get rid of dysk and other rule mischief, just a thought. {{User:Ze/?}} 20:28, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::::May I recommend looking at the actual substance of this vote. We don't want to get rid of Dysk. In fact, most people supporting removing his tech right and sysoprevoke are saying that he can get sysop back fairly quickly. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 20:30, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:::::You have the tenacity to vote for permanent sysoprevoke and claim to not want to get rid of dysk. Ok. {{User:Ze/?}} 20:32, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::::::Don't forget what Crow called me. A &quot;&lt;code&gt;you dishonest little shit&lt;/code&gt;&quot; (not even punished, but promoted to tech!). [[User:GR|GR]] ([[User talk:GR|talk]]) 20:33, 2 September 2020 (UTC) It doesn't say permanent. Are you sure it's permanent? {{unsig|2600:100c:b2b0:8958:44b1:d5bf:a0a4:913b}} :Yes I'm sure and no option for temporary was proposed. {{User:Ze/?}} 21:14, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::It's not permanent, it's just a &quot;place into sysoprevoke right now&quot;, but if you look at the actual fucking description of these votes, you'll quickly realize that most people are at least willing to place him out of sysoprevoke and back into sysop pretty quickly. Jesus... {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:16, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::if its not permanent, how long is it for and where does it say that. {{User:Ze/?}} 21:20, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Check the actual votes. Also, check our policies surrounding sysoprevoke itself. It can be overturned at any point the mob thinks it should be overturned, and the mob seems to overwhelmingly agree that he can get them back fairly easily. Finally, I find there to be some dry amusement in that you say that there is an attempt to get rid of Dysk but um... ''the person who made this vote is Dysk''. So uh, unless you want to argue that the person who wants to &quot;get rid of Dysk&quot; is Dysk, then something here doesn't really add up. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:24, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::::The overwhelming support for letting me off the hook, so to speak, gives me some faith this wiki ain't completely fucked yet. Did I attempt to get rid of myself? Yeah I think I did in a subconscious way self-sabotage myself... oh well. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 16:19, 3 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Not sure I'd call it an &quot;overwhelming&quot; show of support, at this moment the vote is 8 votes to remove tech, 9 votes to keep tech (one of which is your own vote). But yes, I can't see it swinging the other way so it does look like you tech rights will end up getting restored. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 16:49, 3 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::I didn't expect any votes in favour of a lesser sanction. Furthermore, I expected ''at least someone'' to vote for a ban. The favourable response is welcome, yet unexpected. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 17:00, 3 September 2020 (UTC) {{Vote closed bottom}} I would like to remind everyone that by suppressing the entire coop, it is entirely possible that RW has been opened up to possible legal issues. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&amp;type=suppress&amp;user=&amp;page=RationalWiki%3AChicken+coop&amp;offender=&amp;year=&amp;month=-1&amp;tagfilter=&amp;subtype= Please reference the suppression logs], where notably DG suppressed a case that was &quot;potentially libelous&quot;, yet it had to be restored when unsuppressing the coop, as well as seemingly another supression by Oxy over something else before and a few minor other suppressions. Just pointing this one out. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:03, 3 September 2020 (UTC) : Assuming I get tech back at this point. I can simply check and resupress the relevant revisions. After all, I am a board member. This ain't going to take me long to fix. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 17:06, 3 September 2020 (UTC) ::Simple fix: Give Dysk tech so that he can clean it up. This isn't rocket science. {{User:GR/sig}} 17:32, 3 September 2020 (UTC) I think this a good as reason as any to continue with normal business and let peeps fix what they broke. {{User:Ze/?}} 13:48, 5 September 2020 (UTC) :Tedious tasks ahead, I guess. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 15:18, 5 September 2020 (UTC) == What the fuck is happening == LGM resigns as mod and Raven, who lancbed his way out of a coop, is back, and gets sysoprevoke removed ''and'' his tools restored. Y'all give Raven the benefit of the doubt numerous fucking times, and yet give me none, when it's been shown time and time again I`m nowhere ''near'' as bad as Raven. Seriously, what the hell? Someone just can't LANCB their way out of a coop and expect everything to be okay, not after how they treated us. LGM's gone, GC's gone, and I`m seriously considering leaving. Ugh, this wiki makes me ''sick''. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 20:42, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :Didn't you say you would stop attacking me? [[User:GR|GR]] ([[User talk:GR|talk]]) 20:43, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::I`m quite frankly ''disgusted'' at what is happening, Raven. Even you must acknowledge that part of the blame lies on your behalf. This shit would be funny if it were fictional, but it's really not. What has RW become? The circus? &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 20:45, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2220488&amp;oldid=2220486 [[User:GR|GR]] ([[User talk:GR|talk]]) 20:46, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::::[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Chicken_coop#Le_Vote And here we have 14 to 12 votes] for you to be permabanned, which you weaseled your way out of via pulling a coop. :::::Here's some diffs to remind you of your past: [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217083], [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:GR&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217044], [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fascism&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2197105], [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fascism&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2197051], and let's not forget when you insulted Flandres for being fair to you, and comparing me to Putin. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 20:51, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::In fact, let's just link to [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Chicken_coop#LeftyGreenMario_is_fed_up_with_Raven LGM's detailed, and comprehensive essay] on this subject at your coop case, which, you, again, weaseled your way out of via LANCB. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 20:53, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::If you behave like this after a supposed détente, I won't vote to give you a sysop back. Not deserved. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2220488&amp;oldid=2220486]{{User:GR/sig}} 20:58, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::I`m not blameless, but this shit wouldn't fly if it were me in question. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:00, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Raven, I don't want you angry, I want you ''gone''. Just go away, this site isn't the right site for you anyways. It'll be a lot easier on everyone if you go away quietly, none of this needs to happen. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:02, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::Are you trying to get rid of me? I got a lot of butthurt when I said this. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:10, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::Forget I said anything, it's not worth rehashing. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:15, 2 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} I won't forget it. Next time you ask for sysop I will oppose it (because of this). {{User:GR/sig}} 21:24, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :I mean, you admitted to starting drama on purpose on the Discord, so.... &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:37, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::Since you quickly undid your promise to no longer attack me, I will no longer just accept your proposals of armistice, considering this recent breach of civility. Make your words worth anything. I will no longer entertain this subject. {{User:GR/sig}} 22:18, 2 September 2020 (UTC) == Proxy votes == Hello, everyone. I hate to bother people but Godless Raven was locked out of his account again (he apparently uses randomly generated passwords that he stores on his browser. When he deletes the stored password and removes his email information from his account, this makes it impossible for him to log back in). He desires to edit from [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/GR this account.] Now, the question is, does this account have franchise? Personally, I say yes. So long as he is only voting with a single account I don't see the issue. The spirit of the law is clearly being followed, Godless Raven meets the minimum edit count and account age requirements to be a voter in policy/penalty discussions.--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:39, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :I mean sure. I don’t see why not. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 22:24, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::He just said he doesn't even want to be here, wants to leave and just wants his sysop so he can delete stuff before going away forever. Why does he need to vote then? [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:16, 3 September 2020 (UTC) :::The vote is needed because he fake-LANCBed before. If he was actually leaving, then why is GR still in the Saloon?[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/GR] [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:40, 3 September 2020 (UTC) ::::What's the problem here? {{User:GR/sig}} 18:39, 3 September 2020 (UTC) == So Dysk got all his rights back == And I`m still here languishing in sysoprevoke while Raven, a user who has worse conduct than me, is still a ninja and sysop even after he pulled a lancb to weasel his way out of a permaban. Great. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 15:43, 5 September 2020 (UTC) :Temporary sysoprevoke in your case I believe, you could make a vote on removing it now, or at a later point in time. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 15:48, 5 September 2020 (UTC) ::I object. She told me she wanted to make peace [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2220488&amp;oldid=2220486] and later attacked me yet again. {{ping|D}} {{User:GR/sig}} 15:51, 5 September 2020 (UTC) :::I'm not a mod, my comment is about the procedure of the request, the substance of the request would be decided at the vote. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 15:57, 5 September 2020 (UTC) ::::I never attacked you, Raven, my comment was about LGM. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:00, 5 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Also Raven you [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAtheism&amp;type=revision&amp;diff=2222019&amp;oldid=2222018 jumped into a conversation that you wasn't mentioned in] to try wind up Oxy, so don't act like too much of a victim. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 16:02, 5 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I commented about a talk page section about how Oxy didn't mind Stalin at the time there. Even Bongolian agreed with me. What's the problem here? {{User:GR/sig}} 16:09, 5 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::The thing about Stalin was irrelevant is the problem, you had no reason to jump in on that convo other than to wind me up. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:11, 5 September 2020 (UTC) == Vote to remove or uphold Oxy's sysoprevoke == Several people have flagged their support to restore sysop for me, and I ''have'' improved on such things. If Raven gets to keep sysop even after all he's done, why is he held to a different set of standards than me? ===Aye=== # &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 15:59, 5 September 2020 (UTC) # Let's get this rolling. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 16:37, 5 September 2020 (UTC) ===Nay=== ===Goat=== *{{ping|Scream!!}} {{ping|Bongolian}} {{ping|Ace McWicked}} I request your input on our monthly &quot;should we let oxy get sysop tools&quot; (I think it should just be dismissed and archived, honestly). {{User:GR/sig}} 16:01, 5 September 2020 (UTC) **How about you abide by the results of the Coop and leave, why do you get held to one set of standards and I don't? &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:02, 5 September 2020 (UTC) ***Also why do you not ping RWRW? Do you want to make it even more apparent you're mod shopping? &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:03, 5 September 2020 (UTC) ****(ec) ngl after the recent thread last week on this subject I don't think this will work and it should be archived because of that but if you want to go thru with it anyway then there should be some point to wait until October or November at least before doing it again. {{User:Ze/?}} 16:15, 5 September 2020 (UTC) *****So far as I'm aware, Raven is not accused of abusing sysop tools, is he? You, on the other hand, have a demonstrated record of block abuses involving both truly heavy-handed bans and a kind of persistent, self-dealing dishonesty that should disqualify you from ever being a sysop until you come clean about it. Are you ready to talk about Howe much you've lied to people here? [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 16:12, 5 September 2020 (UTC) ******You're hardly an unbiased source, and my block record ''did'' improve prior to me being sysoprevoked. How am I dishonest again? &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:14, 5 September 2020 (UTC) UTC) *******I showed that your block record was crummy up to the end. Do you really want to force me to have to go through all your bans to catalog obviously dishonest examples of you using &quot;Morris&quot; and &quot;ban evasion&quot; as ways to get rid of people you didn't like, rather than admit you didn't have checkuser and therefore had no basis for claiming a huge number of accounts were Morris without their admission (which did occasionally happen)? It seems childish to contest the point and its obvious consequences. I don't have a lot of time to spend on this, but when I do, I promise the stakes won't just be whether you get sysop back. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 16:26, 5 September 2020 (UTC) ********You realize there's such a thing as a behavioral pattern, right? &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 16:27, 5 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2222743</id> <title>RationalWiki:Chicken coop</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&diff=2222743"/> <updated>2020-09-05T16:30:47Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Maybe it's time */ <hr /> <div>__NEWSECTIONLINK__{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}[[Category:RationalWiki]][[Category:RationalWiki moderation]][[Category:Turdblossoms]] [[Category:Shit articles]] {{hatnote|Not to be confused with the [[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation|moderator noticeboard]].}} {{talkpage |search=yes}} {{shortcut|RW:CC|RW:COOP}} &lt;!-- {{/status|}} --&gt; {{/status|5}} The '''chicken coop''' is for the avoidance, containment and resolution of cases of [[Headless Chicken Mode]] (HCM). Despite the name, this tends to be serious business. This page can be used for reporting cases of administrative abuse (abuse of [[RationalWiki:Sysop guide|sysop]] or [[RationalWiki:Moderators|moderator]] abilities such as blocking, page deletion, or user rights management), general abuse (such as [[troll]]ing, [[wandalism]], and personal attacks), and '''conflicts which cannot be solved through normal talk page discussion''' (such as long-standing edit wars or article content disputes). Please be specific and include links to any relevant discussions, page edits or logs. All editors are welcome to comment on the cases raised here, and to try to reach a consensus on any action to be taken. If no consensus can be reached, and the HCM seems to be escalating, moderators are expected to take some action. However, any serious or permanent solution, such as removal of rights or lengthy ban, requires a community vote here according to the guidelines laid out in our [[RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Voting|Community Standards]]. '''Please''' try to resolve conflicts directly through discussion on other editor's talk pages '''before''' reporting them. It's better to just talk to someone rather than try to drag their name through the mud. If the issue is not conflict resolution, but concerns RationalWiki policies, suggested changes to how things work around here, or similar matters of principle, please post '''[[RationalWiki talk:Community Standards|on the Community Standards talk page]] instead. When presenting a case here, be sure to include ''whom'' you are accusing, what exactly you are accusing them ''of'', some hard ''evidence'', and a brief ''explanation''. Since the sole purpose of the Coop is to resolve these disputes, don't post unrelated or more generalized complaints here — if you do, your posts will be moved off the page. Any vote started within 48 hours of filing will be deleted and you will be blocked. Use {{tl|CoopNotice}} to inform the user in question, so that they have a chance to discuss their actions here. As a final note, if you think this page is a good tactic to apply in gaming the mob into doing your bidding, you may be shocked to see your post archived ''quite'' swiftly. ==LeftyGreenMario is fed up with Raven== [[File:Mario of disappointment.jpg|thumb|center|Mario is especially disappointed at Dysk]] I've been attending this since June. Raven has serious attitude problems. He views people that show the slightest bit of resistance as an enemy and assumes bad faith. His accusations of such against people are numerous; see [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&amp;action=submit#Coop_104 my diffs in this coop, under my giant text block]. While his behavior gets evaluated, most of his defense relies on trying to bring up issues and angry, frustrated replies from other users. This has a grain of truth. I think it's a dangerous grain of truth that Raven uses to his advantage. He'll take advantage of any slight in someone else's reaction to what he's doing and use it against them whenever they try bringing up. Perhaps some users should've approached him without combating whatever edits he's trying to make. But it takes two to tango. To expect them to behave while Raven continues to sling insults and passive aggressive snark at them is a very unfair standard. This also doesn't excuse his constant escalation, his his deflection, nor his repeated attacks on people that have only criticized him and haven't made any personal attacks or even a single swear at him. I do not hate Raven. I do not dislike him. I will still respond with respect to what he will say to me on Discord. I do not take pleasure in banning him. I am extremely disappointed in him. Regardless of Raven's repeated failure to improve especially without invoking conditions or equating other user actions that led to this case, I still expect him to grow and learn after the fact. He has listened to my advice in DMs and can stop if told to stop. He has apologized for what he's done for the community before his last attempted LANCB and has apologized to me in DM. I cannot, however, let him continue without considering the cost of wiki upkeep. And it's been very costly to me. I've taken over an hour trying to look through history and typing up this thing. I could've been writing a good article or just scouring random articles for minor edits. I've been apologizing to users for asking them for assistance and additional opinions on navigating through this mess. I could be having a more pleasant conversation with others. I cannot oversee every little edit he makes and tell him to stop; this is up for him to identify his own behavior and refrain from passive-aggressive remarks, which he demonstrates as being unable to do. I don't believe some of the users that attacked Raven are entirely innocent, but Raven has been central to the conflicts here, and his attacks have been more widespread, to a wider range of users. Some alternatives are proposed, which are done because Raven is clearly an ideologically aligned user and has undeniably good contributions, which users wish to keep coming. They want him to continue contributing and leave out his nastiness to other users. A topic ban and an interaction ban have been proposed. The biggest problem is that it requires a degree of expectations that are assumed they'll be met and doesn't really consider the disappointing history Raven's had here. I don't have those expectations. Raven has already tried my patience for several months, as well as a few other users including me (GC and Oxyaena especially Oxyaena failing to de-escalate; maybe the occasional insult from me and Crow) that make my case against Raven more and more difficult. The biggest issue with this proposal is that this behavior change is already an implied provision of a major coop case against him. The coop case has been done because we're expected him to improve. He was told many times to keep a low profile and change his attitude, remain respectful, quietly edit pages, stay quiet if someone reverts. This is already a probation enacted once he came back after an unexpected unban from Ze. One might argue that this is a stricter probation, but I think a topic ban is inappropriate and more of a burden to enforce. The topic nor the users Raven have interacted with are the problem here, ''Raven is the problem''. It doesn't matter how many topics Raven shouldn't engage in, and it doesn't matter what particular users Raven has angered, Raven will likely start a conflict on a tangential topic and maybe argue that it has nothing to do with the topic ban, which means more interpretation from the mod team and more decisions to be made. That there's a convoluted proposal of such a ban at all suggests me that someone is too troublesome to monitor. On top of this, a little background. Godless Raven has accumulated a negative reputation here well before he joined RationalWiki. He was banned from several Discord servers, including RatCord and RationalWiki Support Chat (the latter, which I've done), but this includes more moderate ones that aren't directly related to RationalWiki. His conduct on the servers cannot and should not be used as evidence for this case, but these indicate long-term problems of his behavior. I believed he could stay here and behave, but I am now pushed over the edge. ===Content disputes and edit wars=== *[[Talk:Anarchism]] The biggest one he's involved in. There's actually two of them that happened. This one is bad because there were suggestions for improvement clearly spelled out and Raven overlooked it and failed to realize why people were so upset when he tried reinstating edits. The latter links are taken from Coop104. *[[Talk:Martin Luther King Jr.]] *[[Talk:Capitalism]] *[[Talk:Tucker Carlson]] *[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Tucker_Carlson&amp;action=history Tucker Carlson opening insult] *[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;action=history Donald Trump opening quote] *[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=John_Maynard_Keynes&amp;action=history John Maynard Keynes private life] (trying to construct a parallel with Martin Luther King Jr.'s alleged homophobia *[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Fascism#origin_of_red_fascist Facism origin of red fascist] ===Negative interactions=== Godless Raven can acknowledge he's wrong. He can listen to criticism, sometimes. But there's an established pattern of behavior where firm criticism of his character flaws that is prevalent in negative interactions has him trying to point fingers at other users and ask why they aren't being hard on them. This includes both users that have insulted him (GC, Oxyaena, AMassiveGay) and those that have just expressed mostly disappointment (Shabidoo, Flandres, Crow, me). *[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217038] He makes it clear he wants to drive out Oxyaena and GrammarCommie, who has borne the brunt of the negative interactions with him. Also makes it clear to want to drive out Crow. *[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:GR&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217044] Creates a list for users to expel. He has tried to walk back on this, though his apology is very weak and took too long to walk back *[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217087] Unjustified personal attack to Flandres. *[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217083] Unjustified personal attack to Flandres, using his mainspace to elevate over Flandres and really aiming low at Flandres. *[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2217087&amp;oldid=2217085] Unjustified personal attack to Flandres (reply to above) *[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217067] Unjustified personal attack to Shabidoo. He claims he is quoting Oxyaena to try to justify his personal attacks. *[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2217051&amp;oldid=2217049] Unjustified personal attack to Shabidoo. Really awful stuff, again aiming low at Shabidoo by saying the only thing she's good for is spewing diarrhea in Saloon Bar (Shabidoo makes lengthy well-thought out posts in Saloon Bar). *[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2217611&amp;oldid=2217609] In spite of above, he calls Shabidoo's behavior &quot;toxic&quot; and believes the simple solution is &quot;don't interact with me&quot;. *[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217048] Hastur is thanked and he blanket characterizes people as &quot;hacks&quot;. *[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217378] Trying to cast me off as lying, that I am pretending he is just ban evading. He requested an indef ban, he got one and I made sure of it through sysoprevoke. I thought it was for his own good (in addition to the conflict, which has spilled over and I had the Chicken Coop kept in mind) and to prevent temptation from him to sign up, but he can't honor this. He seemed to have made it clear he will not try to join. He admitted to scrambling his passwords and whatnot. This is not the first time he appeared to have an honest effort at leaving. While part of the reason of sysoprevoke was for overall community upkeep, I thought I'd help him from giving in to the temptation to come back and continue being a pain. *[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Bongolian&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217071] Don't check just the link, the topic. If GR was left banned, this exchange wouldn't have happened. Do you think this reflects my actions poorly? *[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2217615&amp;oldid=2217611] Characterizing my opinion, agreeing with other people, as &quot;LGM and adjacent&quot; that really want to get rid of him. There's no acknowledgment ''why'' this is the case. Raven has driven other users to exhaustion. I had extensive conversations with GC and Crow that have expressing being at wits end. Months ago, considering the allegations of harassment going on between GC, Ze, and Raven, GC has been particularly frustrated, as he told me he was being assumed bad faith and had users refusing to engage with him, and I had to listen to him through voice chat, for probably longer than an hour, expressing his absolute gnawing frustration, back in June. I had to tell him several times to calm down. ===Equating actions by other users=== Whenever his behavior is examined, he's quick to point to other users that have been nasty to him. This does not justify his behavior. GC and Oxy should've been dealt with, especially if GC told people to &quot;kill themselves&quot; (which he did) but I recall scolding them if I caught them. I remember GC's &quot;kill yourself&quot; comment very well. I don't know if I responded to it through dm or not. I don't find it excusable either. He should've been told off. But this isn't about GC. This has been noticed by Flandres[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=2216271] and by Crow. Raven is very quick to try to show users with double standards and hypocrites. He's demonstrated to be very vindictive. Whenever he gets in trouble, he will try to take advantage of others' apparent misconduct to bring them down. He will try to use reasons for sanctions imposed on him to try to impose on others. Any insult or exasperated comment you make to him WILL be used by him to try to equate what you're doing to what he's doing.[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2216270]. *[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217373] He demonstrates that hastur treated him well but assumes other users were treating him as a &quot;pest&quot; and something less than human with no acknowledgement on how people got angry at him. *[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=2217078] When asked to be not invite others to leave, he equates his actions to GC's and Oxy's hostility. *Trying to cast off Shabidoo as some hypocrite.[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217059] After repeatedly told by others to apologize for the hitlist, he finally relents and makes a vague apology.[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217419] [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217405] Has made it clear to apologize on condition that Shabidoo apologizes first. *[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2217405&amp;oldid=2217404] Raven asking Bongolian to please also sysoprevoke GC for misconduct. Will Raven attempt to remove my tools? Perhaps. I figure he'll try to say I'm abusing my powers for a sysoprevoke and I've sysoprevoked users without due process before, or I said insulting things about Ace on Discord. He thinks I'm plotting. He accused me of this before, on Coop102. Because I'm mad on Discord. He's already implied so.[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2217366&amp;oldid=2217365] Maybe he'll bring up that I have a tendency to complain about stuff on RatCord and Rational Wiki Support Chat. He knows I do this. I figure he'll use this to try to weaken my case without it quite strengthening his case. ===Promises=== {{cquote|I'm trying my hardest to cooperate to you. I've discussed subjects with you on Discord and I haven't personally attacked you, though I was frank saying I cannot defend you from other users because I also believe other users have a point and I have felt the difficulty of cooperating with you. You've said you wanted to drop it but this is after you're told to keep a low profile. Try to understand what harassment is (it's not receiving repeated personal attacks), try to assume good faith, try to understand why people have yelled at you, try to deescalate (no passive-aggressive remarks), don't edit war, and try to understand that shared posts on Discord are devoid of context and can be interpreted differently from their original intent.|||My advice in Coop102, June 23. Was any of this adhered to? I don't believe so.}} He desperately tries to justify being here with his contributions.[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217397][https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217365], which has convinced some users to keep him around, but used that to attack others who haven't had the contributions, particularly Shabidoo and Flandres[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217083]. I don't blame those that think his positives are worthwhile, but I find his overall conduct unsatisfactory. I gave him what felt like two chances already. As stated earlier, he has DMd me with some pleasant conversation and promises to improve and asking me for advice on how to tackle a content dispute. This was the initial reason I kept him. People can attest to his positive contributions. He has posted relevant content on RationalWiki Support Chat and engages users in discussion, even against the likes of GC, if I recall correctly. I don't blame people for wanting him around but I suspect they haven't been really monitoring the conflict. Or maybe they did, but they just don't think it's serious or exhausting. If it weren't for the cases earlier, I may have been more sympathetic to keeping him around. ===Coop cases=== ====Coop 102==== {{main|RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive102}} GC wheel warring with Raven and Ze over anarchism. This one has Oxy trying to be vindictive, in my opinion, trying to punish Ace just right after a edit dispute where something is being discussed. GC also survives a demop, as the opposition states that Raven is being overall vindictive. Raven also accepts Oxy's apology. ====Coop 104==== {{main|RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive104}} This is the big coop that nearly got him banned. Started by The Crow, has sourcing that this case takes a little from, but not all of it. The complaints in this one nearly mirror that coop's complaints, but there are still expectations to improve. This coop ended around June 28 due to Raven and Ze attempting to indef ban themselves. Consider that the coop case ended in a tie for indef ban or a tempban. It's reasonable to assume their actions are a tiebreaker for indef banning Raven, it's all over, they're gone. The indef ban, being provided as an option, was the consequence Raven chose. Consider the coop taking place a month ago, which should be reasonable time to expect significant improvement. The sanctions imposed were made assuming Raven will improve his behavior. Here, he also tries to get Crow and GC. He went all out into trying to get the indef ban before LANCB with some really hostile edits from him. Ze, who was granted tech rights from RWRW after getting them removed, eventually unblocked him and reinstated his rights. To be fair, Raven waited out the ban from that coop. But the unblocking was a mistake, the reinstating of rights was a mistake. ''They should've stayed indefinitely banned especially during a coop vote where an indef option was present; they practically chose that option!'' Raven has tried to improve his behavior immediately after he's unbanned, by sticking to simply editing a page and keeping a low profile but he's reverted to the conflicts that led up to this coop. This coop and the results, the tech trying to undo a coop result and a mod action, seemed to clear to me that Raven's already in thin ice, that he essentially subverted a coop result he chose through a self-ban. This may not be his attempt but a request to be unbanned should've been rejected from here, made even clearer in hindsight. ;And another information block where I list Raven's history to the fairest of my ability [[RationalWiki:Chicken_coop/Archive104#LeftyGreenMario.27s_take]] It has instances I haven't even linked in this case that's listed at detail and at length. The behavior in June (it's August now) is same here. Repeated accusations of bad faith. Passive aggressive comebacks. Equating his actions to others. Attempted LANCBs. General unpleasant behavior to several users. GC, Oxyaena, Flandres, AMassiveGay, The Crow, Shabidoo, Tuxer, Féinléiriú. Me. And more. Compare this one to the behavior this month. I don't see any differences. He tried going all martyr. He's probably going to do this again. ====Coop 108==== {{main|RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive108}} This one, from August 20, only a few days ago from this writing, has him listing off Oxyaena as being uncooperative, a toxic person who undermines the project, and so on but are the same common complaints against him. Furthermore, he cites Coop 104 as precedent for him to start a vote early. It fails, with people giving trouts and people at this point appear pretty exhausted. I couldn't attend, and I was disappointed I wasn't there. ===Actions to take=== At this point an indefinite ban is in order. A temporary ban of any short length (max 1 year) is not going to change his behavior no matter how hard he insists he will and no matter he demonstrates in the short term he will, not after getting cooped a few times and being granted one month that may or may not even be deserved considering the inappropriate LANCB and successful request to be unbanned from the coop. Considering the results of Coop104 and the expectations most people had, and that Raven failed them within that one-month window, it is not worth it to try to retain him for his good qualities when he has so many negative qualities that take away from the community upkeep. It is true that some other users have a record pattern of misconduct. Certainly, if their history is bad, don't expect improvement even when Raven is gone, and keep waiting and getting reasonable diff links (e.g. not ones after GC apologizes and the other party accepts the apology). Additionally, Raven's pattern of behavior is more recent and much easier to document and identify. If anyone else wants to summarize or chip in extra negative or positive experiences of Raven, or if anyone wants to defend him, that's fine. What I will not appreciate is the accusation that I'm a tyrant. It's not a useful accusation. Every long-time mod gets accused of this at one point in their life. One thing for certain and I will make this clear: &lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;'''if Godless Raven attempts a LANCB in this case, Raven will be considered perma-banned'''&lt;/span&gt;. :This is a clear violation of https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:Community_Standards#Proposal_Removed, which was voted on by the mob. This is null and void. {{User:GR/sig}} 18:13, 24 August 2020 (UTC) ::LGM is also a mod. It is not null and void. You are in no position to argue that it is. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 18:31, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :::Furthermore, this is not a site to rules-lawyer. If mob opinion wants to go outside the community standards, then it will. That is kind of the point of a mobocracy.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 18:32, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :::: It's not even the right rule. It's supposed to be applied to general LANCB iirc. This condition is one I set and is limited to just this case. It's supposed to address the confusion with the LANCB in one of the coop cases. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:34, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :::::Well you are twisting the CS to fit your desired outcome. Here is what it says: {{quotebox|&quot;Any user who posts a LANCB notice on their user page will be promoted to Normal User for the time that the notice remains on their user page and for one month after it is removed. Once the month has passed they will not necessary be demoted to any previous status they may have held.&quot;}} This was rejected by the mob. If you want to change it, you should open another vote on it (assuming you care about mob decisions). {{User:GR/sig}} 18:37, 24 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::I think you need to realize who you're arguing with. The mob is the ultimate authority here, and the community standards are explicitly ''guidelines'', not rules. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 18:39, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::I have a compromise-let us just not archive the case if he retires in the middle of it and keep counting votes. If he leaves, the the community should still decide whether to shut the door behind him.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 18:40, 24 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::That is the correct action. LANCB's are not punishable and it was voted on. This isn't a compromise by any means, it's the status quo. {{User:GR/sig}} 18:41, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::I suggest treating this section as a suggested punishment + a default judgement in case GR ends up LANCBing. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 18:42, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::: That's my intent. Also, keep focus on Raven's misbehavior, guys. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:44, 24 August 2020 (UTC) {{od}} Well I won't repeat myself, but i'll write it in bold+underline if someone doesn't want to read all the exchanges. &lt;u&gt;'''LANCB's are not punishable because this was voted against by the mob.'''&lt;/u&gt;[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:Community_Standards#Proposal_Removed] {{User:GR/sig}} 18:47, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :GR, this is about your conduct. Stop derailing the discussion with rules lawyering when this is a mobocracy. I would like to apologize to the other editors for enabling his little diversion.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 18:49, 24 August 2020 (UTC) ===On another note=== We should be archiving coop cases by moving the pages, not copy-pasting the content. I found it difficult to sift through diff links for older coop cases. ===Magpies are cute=== * Check my paragraph in ATIM. Fully in agreement with all of this, recommending a permablock once voting can begin. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 18:15, 24 August 2020 (UTC) *Four chances is enough. GR may make positive contributions but those are outweighed effortlessly by his proclivity towards drama. And gloating about future plans to drive users off of the site is a ethical event horizon.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 18:19, 24 August 2020 (UTC) * Regarding abuse of power, you were called out by Hastur on your talk page, when you sysoprevoked and indef blocked me without a coop case nor a justification on the mod page. In this case you clearly breached procedure, and worse, you plotted this ahead in the other discord. I'm not sure what &quot;I will hit a giant giant POW block&quot; means, but I guess it could mean a LANCB (like the other time you did) or some punishments. Either way, you discussed something on discord as a mod action in an opaque way rather than resolving things transparently. I will quote your words: {{cquote|I'm tempted to put Gr in sysoprevoke so they won't make the mistake of unbanning but ek might come in and reinstate sysop and I might get resistance on those that insist procedure|||LGM (21/08/2020)}} {{cquote|I'm off for tonight. If there's a new coop/all things in moderation regarding my indef ban and sysoprevoke for Raven and that thing explodes I will hit a giant giant POW block. There might be one coming up|||LGM (23/08/2020)}} {{User:GR/sig}} 18:27, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :Further, LGM today linked this coop case in the other discord (possibly to brigade). Full text: {{cquote|raven is back in support chat for some reason I thought I banned him anyway I made a new coop case '''go crazy. I'm gonna eat breakfast''' '''There needs to be a vote if I can remove anyone'''|||LGM (24/08/2020)}} :Is this even allowed? LGM, can you confirm for those who are not on discord that those are your words? {{ping|LeftyGreenMario}} {{User:GR/sig}} 18:53, 24 August 2020 (UTC) ::First of all, you are quote mining. ::Second: You are spying on people, but that's okay, because we don't talk behind other people's backs. We know you lurk, and we say hi to you. ::Third: One would think that in a discord group where people are editors they might be interested in what goes on in the wiki. I AM THE ONE WHO ASKED IF WE SHOULD PING PEOPLE TO INFORM THEM THAT THERE IS A COOP ON. You are omitting THAT. And that the Crow was once again a stand up guy, as was LGM. But I guess that doesn't suit your narrative? {{cquote|Rairyu75 Today at 19:20 Should we ping the wiki editors? Like, all of em? @The Crow Wacha think Crow? The Crow Today at 19:20 uhhh well, id suggest asking a mod i wouldn't say no Rairyu75 Today at 19:20 Yeah, same. They will see. The Crow Today at 19:21 but i also dont want this place to basically vote stuff the coop Rairyu75 Today at 19:21 (we are drama whores.) The Crow Today at 19:21 i do want a fair process and i know that this guild isnt a huge fan of GR Rairyu75 Today at 19:21 True. LeafyGlumMayonaise Today at 19:21 I don't want to brigade a vote||LGM (24/08/2020)}} - [[User:Rairyu75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#2B60DE&quot;&gt;'''Rairyu75'''&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User_talk:Rairyu75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#ED8515&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/span&gt;]]) 19:06, 24 August 2020 (UTC) ::That was in a channel dedicated to talking about y'know... the wiki? She's just pointing out procedure as far as I can see as well. She also addressed this concern directly after another editor asked if a lot of people could be mentioned for it. She agreed that stuffing the coop was a bad idea, therefore it didn't happen. Keep those accusations of brigading in your pants and stop trying to smear your accuser here and actually fucking acknowledge the situation. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 18:58, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :::Crow is right. &quot;Go crazy&quot; was referring to any possible opinion or hot take, I didn't think about trying to get a vote here. As for the vote, it refers to the vote being held in Support Chat. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 19:09, 24 August 2020 (UTC) ::::That's not what it says. You mentioned subsequently the coop case, and the only reason Rairyu is aware of this coop case *is* because you told people to &quot;go crazy&quot;. I will let others decide if they are okay with discord brigading. I said my piece about this. {{User:GR/sig}} 19:15, 24 August 2020 (UTC) *It's the same logic I used when my sysoprevoke was voted on. The parallels here are stunning. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 18:29, 24 August 2020 (UTC) *Still believe that most of GR’s bad behavior is in response to hostility and unfairness directed at him. Permaban ain’t it, will vote against. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 18:50, 24 August 2020 (UTC) *:Moose you are completely ingorning multiple completely unprovoked cases of Raven harassing or provoking Oxy or GC on the Saloon and numerous cases of provocative snark all over the wiki that was, entirely, completely unprovoked (I cannot emphasise enough how unprovoked it was). On top of that is a complete inability to own up to his fuck-ups minus a semi-appology for the hitlist (hardly the worst thing he did) and after all this still maintains an &quot;Ill do whatever the fuck I want...don't like it...fuck off&quot; attitude. Do you think Moose that the community just randomly thought &quot;hey there is some new user why don't we all just pick on him for no reason&quot;? Do you not remember the completely unprovoked misbehaviour before his coop which he promised to change after coming back? [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:19, 24 August 2020 (UTC) *:Not all of them were hostile and he treated them too witthe same hostility. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 19:03, 24 August 2020 (UTC) *::Please name them and the situations. {{User:GR/sig}} 19:06, 24 August 2020 (UTC) *:::It's... written at length. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 19:14, 24 August 2020 (UTC) *::::So you can't name them? The ones you listed already hate me and do everything to kick me off. Mention the ones that were never hostile to me and that I reacted to them negatively. Otherwise it's just a claim without any backing. {{User:GR/sig}} 19:22, 24 August 2020 (UTC) *:::::Seemed to me to be Ratcord drama that started people not liking Raven. He and I started off on a super bad footing but have since patched things up, so I’ve never gotten why that couldn’t happen with others. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:29, 24 August 2020 (UTC) *::::::I`m willing to bury the hatchet with Raven, but he has to do the legwork too. It takes two to tango after all. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 19:33, 24 August 2020 (UTC) *::::::{{ec}} Yep. Duce and RWRW were poisoned against me from the beginning, but I apologized and made up for it. If people approach me with humanity, I'll happily give back. Oxy and GC from day one wanted to eliminate me; {{ping|Dysk}} has evidence of a hitlist that GC and Oxy made (I know LGM and others won't care when those two make hitlists). Those who wanted to cooperate with me have not experienced any pain and I did so because I care about the wiki. This isn't borne out of disagreement either: Dysk is an anarchist and RWRW is a libertarian. I can be civil if people treat me fairly, which Oxy, GC, Flandres, Shabidoo, Crow and LGM never cared about. {{User:GR/sig}} 19:34, 24 August 2020 (UTC) {{od}} {{ping|Oxyaena}} Your actions don't represent that. You voted to ban me in the discord server. You only came back today - and it is hard to imagine it is a coincidence that it's the exact day when LGM started this coop. If you want to actually bury the hatchet, vote against the upcoming ban and undo your ban on the discord. Otherwise you are plainly lying. {{User:GR/sig}} 19:35, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :{{ec}} '''Edit''': Oxy ''did'' change her vote. Thank you Oxy. I will try my best to coexist with you from now on. {{User:GR/sig}} 19:39, 24 August 2020 (UTC) *:GR: Do you understand what's causing that behavior? They're not feuding against you. You're again assuming bad faith in them. I already told you the ones that aren't hostile but you insist they are because you assume malicious intent in them. *:Duce, I could bring up the Ratcord drama, but that's a sideshow. I was tempted myself to bring up those mostly on Ratcord as part of the list of names that are tired of him, but we all know Ratcord affairs are only tangentially related to wiki behavior and can't be relied on to make a case here. Most of the coop, however, was written with just wiki behavior in mind, and many of the editors involved aren't on Ratcord nor are they as active. I wrote at length in Archive104 (which is also just wiki conduct) where Raven got unjustly attacked by Oxyaena, GC wanted to cooperate, I wanted to give benefit of doubt. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 19:38, 24 August 2020 (UTC) *::{{ping|DuceMoosolini}} Except Oxyaena, those arguing about Raven's actions weren't even active on RatCord during the drama that involved him on RatCord (I asked) and the majority seemingly weren't on RatCord at the time. Characterizing the entire case against him as &quot;RatCord drama&quot; is a blatant inaccuracy and sweeps his on-wiki actions under the rug. Please try not to get caught up in mostly unrelated narratives. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 19:39, 24 August 2020 (UTC) *:::Also, you're doing exactly what I'm accusing you of doing, Raven, in the coop. You're pointing fingers at everyone. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 19:48, 24 August 2020 (UTC) *::::I dunno. I’m just still swayed by my personal experiences with Raven into believing that he’s fine if given the chance. Plus, it seems like most of the examples of bad behavior were from his meltdown the other day, for which I personally blocked him and which he seemed to realize was out of line. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 19:49, 24 August 2020 (UTC) *:::::I don't think Raven's a bad person, Duce. He definitely has quality traits such as productive discussion in RationalWiki Support Chat and through shared stories on DMs (as with me) and he's helpful. But it's his extremely difficult character flaws combined with the positives that make it especially frustrating. I was convinced to give him benefit of the doubt and give him a few chances. He played out several months. Again, Duce, because of the positive interactions, I'm not happy making him upset at me nor am I happy about writing this. I don't want to make enemies, but if Raven continues seeing me as an unfair traitor, an abusvie tyrant, or an enemy because I want to fairly evaluate and write a long post heavily criticizing his conduct and calling into question his upkeep for the wiki, that's his problem. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 19:54, 24 August 2020 (UTC) *::::::The problem I see here is GR can't seem to do conflict resolution without edit-warring, throwing a hissy fit involving a [[Gish Gallop]] style defense of personal insults and tired deflections, and eventually involving the coup. In a period of only two months, we have: [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Chicken_coop/Archive102 four] [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Chicken_coop/Archive103 f'n] [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Chicken_coop/Archive104 coup] [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Chicken_coop/Archive108 incidents.] Plus the usual &quot;LANCB&quot; with a quick return. This is spectacularly immature and childish behavior. Everyone has their bad days but this is egregious. Raven's probably fine if given the chance, but from what I see, unless Raven learns to work through disputes, we're going to have to decide whether it is more worthwhile to maintain a wiki, or spending most of our time managing a child throwing a fit in the coup again. [[User:Soundwave106|Soundwave106]] ([[User talk:Soundwave106|talk]]) 19:56, 24 August 2020 (UTC) *{{ec}} *{{ping|LeftyGreenMario}} '''please answer the following questions with yes or no''': - 1) Despite official and formal policy, did you indef block me without a coop case nor mentioning it in the mod noticeboard? - 2) Did you talk about using your mod actions as a wiki mod on the discord server? - 3) Did you at any moment condemn or sanction GC's behavior when he told multiple people in the saloon bar to kill themselves? {{User:GR/sig}} 20:00, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Man, GR sure does like deflecting conversations away from his own issues! That much has not changed.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 20:07, 24 August 2020 (UTC) *:{{ping|Soundwave106}} {{quotebox|The problem I see here is GR can't seem to do conflict resolution without edit-warring}} Please go to [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Karl_Marx&amp;diff=2209578&amp;oldid=2209577] and see for yourself. Me and hastur disagreed. We hashed it out on the talk page. No editwarring. No insults or &quot;hissy fit&quot;. In fact, it was Hastur (and several other people) who asked me to come back (I myself wouldn't if multiple people didn't defend me). I came back because they defended me and valued my hard work. I am willing to hash out things, you are ignoring the vast amount of times where I went to the talk page to discuss things. Do you want an explicit list of when that happened, if you don't believe me? {{User:GR/sig}} 20:04, 24 August 2020 (UTC) *This is your trial, not mine GR. I've written an entire section on you trying to equate the actions of multitudes of users to yours. I predicted in your defense that you'll attempt to bring up apparent abuse of powers not to strengthen your case but weaken mine. This is about you. Anyway, you've asked for an indef block which isn't outlined in policy nor does it say in policy I will have to bring up a coop case for a request to block. On Discord I notify users of my actions. I told GC probably in DM that he should tone down the attitude. This has been stated in the coop. Now, let's hear your defense on your behavior, not your attacks on me and others. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 20:18, 24 August 2020 (UTC) I am bringing up your mod abuses. Promoting is explicitly outlined in the CS (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Demoting_and_promoting_users). So is your answer to the question: &quot;'''Despite official and formal policy, did you indef block me without a coop case nor mentioning it in the mod noticeboard?''' a &lt;code&gt;yes&lt;/code&gt;?&lt;br&gt; So you admit that you coordinate your mod action on discord (&quot;'''Did you talk about using your mod actions as a wiki mod on the discord server?'''&quot;) without going through the proper channels?&lt;br&gt;And you admit that you did not condemn or sanctions GC's &quot;kill yourself&quot; comment ''on the wiki when it occured ON the wiki'' (&quot;'''Did you at any moment condemn or sanction GC's behavior when he told multiple people in the saloon bar to kill themselves?'''&quot;)? {{User:GR/sig}} 20:24, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :GR, you are deflecting. Again.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 20:25, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :As I said earlier, you can and will attempt to bring up anything that resembles the slightest bit of misconduct or inability to attend to a conflict that has been since resolved to elevate you as a victim of unjust judgement. You're doing this to me as you've done to others, outlined in coop with the diff links. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 20:29, 24 August 2020 (UTC) ::It is abuse. You abused your power. I want you to confirm that so that everyone can see that. {{User:GR/sig}} 20:31, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :::Ah yes, saying &quot;define yourself on my terms or I will say I was right anyway.&quot; This is why people think engagement with you, while ideally desirable, is not worth it in practice. Oh, and you are deflecting again.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 20:36, 24 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Sidenote GR, you make mention of Oxy and GC making a &quot;hitlist&quot;. May I see evidence of that, because I think to at least many in this coop, this would be quite a shocking development, since I have never heard of anyone making a hitlist that isn't the one from your specific meltdown the other day. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 11:31, 25 August 2020 (UTC) ===Testimony on what happened on Ratcord=== {{collapse|Offtopic; see &quot;Edit warring on his own coop case&quot;}} It was back in November of 2018 when Raven joined Ratcord. Raven posted an essay where he defended people screwing corpses. A lot of people (myself included) got angry with Raven. When we started to object to his views Raven started to project that we were far-left, even though a lot of us weren't even far-left. [[User:Adam Warlock|Adam Warlock]] ([[User talk:Adam Warlock|talk]]) 05:09, 25 August 2020 (UTC) :{{ping|Ace McWicked}} see? People want me banned because of 2018 discord drama (+ another piece of evidence that LGM is brigading). {{User:GR/sig}} 09:48, 25 August 2020 (UTC) ::That's not what they're saying. I suggest you reread it again. The testimony, whilst nice doesn't even remotely connect to the current situation. LGM wasn't active back then. Neither was GC. Many of the complainers weren't even in that Discord. The only person involved on that Discord back then who has raised complaints (again I ''asked'' this to make sure) against you was Oxy (who got banned from there) and guess what, she's not filing shit against you. So I would suggest you stop pushing this dishonest bullshit. ::Nobody is cooping you because you have some weird ideas on what to do with the dead. I can pretty safely say that most of us don't even give a remote two shits about your opinion on necrophilia, since you haven't touched any aricles related to that subject here. You are here because you are incapable of working together with other editors, unable to accept criticism and constantly deflect any attempts at delivering criticism by trying to smear the person delivering it rather than taking it to heart. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 11:37, 25 August 2020 (UTC) :::Small amendement; Apparently Oxy wasn't even active during that incident either, so the entire notion that this is 2018 Discord drama being done on the wiki is frankly pathetic. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 11:39, 25 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Please retract the &quot;Nobody is cooping you because you have some weird ideas on what to do with the dead.&quot; I multiple times said that I don't care about it. It's a moral principle, not a personal preference of mine. {{User:GR/sig}} 11:49, 25 August 2020 (UTC) :::::Irrelevant minutiae that carries no bearing on my point. Confront the argument. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 11:54, 25 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::I only posted this Raven because it shows a history of how you can get. You can get very toxic and belligerent when somebody criticizes you and your views. [[User:Adam Warlock|Adam Warlock]] ([[User talk:Adam Warlock|talk]]) 15:14, 25 August 2020 (UTC) :This is a stupid section and should not be considered. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 18:59, 25 August 2020 (UTC) ::Yeah. But LGM asked for this &quot;testimony&quot; (part of her brigading). {{User:GR/sig}} 19:01, 25 August 2020 (UTC) :::What the person did was ask (I did not initiate asking) to provide a small bit of background of Raven's uncooperative behavior stemming from 2018. It's relevant because the behavior here is similar to the conflict this person experienced, and it's supposed to suggest Raven's problems are long term and cannot be resolved with a short-term block (from my interpretation). This section isn't essential; even without it, a month's worth of drama is already sufficient, but this going back years doesn't help Raven's reputation. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 19:08, 25 August 2020 (UTC) :News: Raven escapes an attempted ban from Support Chat by a vote of 9 vs 10. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 02:48, 26 August 2020 (UTC) {{collapse end}} === Funnily enough === '''''Even''''' Oxy is willing to cooperate me (she was the reason why I LANCB'ed in the first place). I would argue this significantly weakens the case for this coop. For what it is worth, I pledge to not interact with Oxy and I hope we (me and her) can coexist on this platform. I'm thankful for her initiative to use diplomacy rather than a war hammer and I apologize for my hostility to her recently. {{User:GR/sig}} 19:45, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :Raven, I am saying this because I think the worst outcome is you being expelled from the site. The best outcome is to drop this belligerent attitude, apologise to those you were viciously uncivil to during your 24 hour meltdown and say you'll make an effort to coexist with established users. I promise you that every time you make any other sort of comment here on this coop will count against you and increase the likelihood of you being voted against. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:52, 24 August 2020 (UTC) ::I apologized to Oxy, who extended her hand for diplomacy. You have yet to apologize for your hostility; I said I would apologize if you did so as well (and you refused). {{User:GR/sig}} 19:55, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :::Sigh [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:14, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :::Raven, since you're in the hot seat here, it might be prudent to extend the olive branch first. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 20:16, 24 August 2020 (UTC) ::::I did! I said I would apologize for the hitlist if Shabidoo apologized for being an ass to me. She doesn't want to apologize and I am not going to kneel. That won't happen. Either she accepts that this conflict is caused by multiple people and not scapegoat me; or nada. {{User:GR/sig}} 20:18, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :::::I wrote in the coop that Raven made it clear that his apology is only conditional and assumes Shabidoo conducted as bad as Raven. Shabidoo is not entitled to apologize, ''you'' are for saying a load of hurtful things like calling Shabi a useless, toxic influence. The diff links are there. But the amount of effort you tried to make this condition clear will weaken any further attempt at apology. Making a brief apology now isn't going to make up for this. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 20:19, 24 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Then I won't apologize. You won't scapegoat and demonize me with my consent. {{User:GR/sig}} 20:25, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::Raven, this isn't helping your case. It would benefit you to demonstrate a willingness to work with Shabidoo on your own end without conditions. The demand for conditions in exchange for a simple apology does make you seem unreasonable. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 20:28, 24 August 2020 (UTC) {{od}} It needs two for cooperation to happen. I already proposed an interaction ban between me and Shabidoo. She refused. I proposed to apologize. She refused. She doesn't want to cooperate. She wants me to kneel. And I won't kneel. If that means I get banned, so it will be. I hope that user retention problem will then be solved when I'm off this site. {{User:GR/sig}} 20:30, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :(edit conflict) This is not an unusual retort Raven makes. This fits exactly with all the evidence I've been gathering. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 20:31, 24 August 2020 (UTC) ::Allow me to say treating Oxy as being equally belligerent is at least understandable, given her reaction to him first making his account, but to say shabidoo and crow are in the same behavioral box as that is ridiculous.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 20:32, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :::Yeah, I've never personally seen Shabi behave offensively. She's usually quite pleasant. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 20:38, 24 August 2020 (UTC) ::::No she doesn't. She is pleasant. Yet Raven is treating her to the same standard as [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2217051&amp;oldid=2217049 this horrible insult] or this [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=2217064 one] he's thrown at her. He's practically asking her to apologize for making him mad like that. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 20:41, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :::::&quot;No, I'm not going to be your monkey&quot; - Jon Stewart, when asked by Tucker Carlson to be &quot;funny&quot;. I will not apologize to Shabidoo if she doesn't ever recognize her own nasty behavior. I will be banned first before that happens. {{User:GR/sig}} 20:44, 24 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Can you link to some of this nasty behavior? Because I genuinely don't remember her doing anything really bad. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 20:47, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::Duce, do you see why some of us think reasoning with GR, while ideal in theory, is unworkable in practice? And again, let me insist that &quot;shabidoo is a toxic user who contributes nothing to the site&quot; is simply a false claim.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 20:49, 24 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::By the way I am LGTBQ+ but I identify as a Cis male. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:51, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Sorry, I thought you identified as female. My bad, I'll try not to misgender you again. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 20:53, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::{{ec}} Then I apologize for misgendering, because I was told to use &quot;she&quot;. I usually dont gender and use &quot;they&quot; whenever I am not told what pronounts to use. Anyway. {{ping|DuceMoosolini}} Here: [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Anarchism&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2214522][https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Saloon_bar&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2212028][https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:GR&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2200221] In all cases I didn't provoke her, but she attacked and/or provoked me. Please don't fall for lies. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:00, 24 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::Is that equally as hostile as what Lefty has linked? I say this because having you both apologize implies you are both equally in the wrong and have said equally toxic things to each other.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 21:07, 24 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::::So imma be honest... none of those comments seem really bad. The worst thing she says is that you were behaving childishly with the template, which I'm not terribly inclined to disagree with. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:08, 24 August 2020 (UTC) {{od}} My god... Shabidoo came unprovoked to attack me. If that isn't nasty, surely I have nothing to apologize for. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:16, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :All of those comments that you've linked simply reflect on your disruptive behaviour and my attempts to constructively encourage you to be more cooperative with users. They were entirely provoked because you were being disruptive of unconstructive. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:18, 24 August 2020 (UTC) ::There were zero insults and not even swear words. Shabi just criticized your actions and behavior. There's nothing there. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:21, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :::*rolls eyes* yep, threatening to get me banned multiple times is not toxic. Got me. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:24, 24 August 2020 (UTC) ::::&quot;I have no doubt the community will swiftly hold a coop to make it an actual ban&quot; is not a threat, but a simple prediction of how the community might react to your actions. If anything, it's a beneficial warning. And if that's toxic then so was your &quot;hit list&quot;. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:25, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :::::Which I already apologized for and admitted it to be. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:26, 24 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Hey, that's good. I still don't see where Shabi threatened you or acted out of line. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:29, 24 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::I would like to point out you apologized to the community, put that phrase in bold, and explicitly did not apologize to the users you threatened so imo that was pretty backhanded. But that is beside the point, that Shabidoo still has no reason to apologize and be treated as if he is equally at fault.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 21:33, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::Okay, I will say this and then you guys can misconstrue what I say all you want. I won't be your monkey. I won't apologize if he doesn't either. I linked the evidence. Don't like the evidence? Too bad. If you think he is totally innocent and I am Mephistopheles, then all good. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:36, 24 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::I evaluated the evidence fairly. What am I misconstruing? {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 23:33, 24 August 2020 (UTC) Raven, I am a Cis male, please use the pronoun &quot;he&quot;. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:37, 24 August 2020 (UTC) :Corrected. {{User:GR/sig}} 22:01, 24 August 2020 (UTC) === Why are we banning editors based on Discord affairs? === Quick question, is there anything here that isn't just the following statement in a great many words; {{cquote|Raven is annoying to talk to on Discord, ban him so we don't have to see him anymore&quot;|||}} In a sense I'm asking, do you mind showing evidence of Community Standards violations? This case cites no evidence, previous cases cited no evidence. The only potential violation of the CS I can see is brief edit warring where multiple other editors were in violation as well. If the case is based on the edit warring then obviously we have several editors to ban. If this case is based on user comments, we have a large part of the wiki to ban. In edit warring and in provocative commentary, the user in question is far from the worst offender. While you are at liberty to conduct a kangaroo court here, I personally think it important to maintain consistent standards, which are applied fairly and equally. The current situation is quite demonstrably an exercise in abusing our on-wiki processes to further an irrelevant disagreement on Discord. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 00:11, 25 August 2020 (UTC) :LGM also wants to ban me in case I LANCB again, which is very clearly against CS (worse, it was recently voted on by the mob). See: [[RationalWiki:Chicken_coop#Actions_to_take]] {{User:GR/sig}} 00:15, 25 August 2020 (UTC) ::The convoluted excuses concocted to ban people based on Discord affairs, without citing any actionable violations of the community standards have been noted. In a nutshell none of the behaviour listed in this case, previous cases, or the mod noticeboard have risen above baseline misconduct exhibited by most of the active users of this wiki. The clear singling out, of one of the better behaved and more productive editors, is little more than thinly veiled personal spite. If you need proof of this take a look at the Discord channels, it's very plain. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 00:24, 25 August 2020 (UTC) :::This isn't to mention the brigading (which she admitted to) on the discord server for this coop (&quot;go crazy&quot;). {{User:GR/sig}} 00:27, 25 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Yeah, I would go as far as saying the outcome of this case was predetermined in private channels on Discord where it was extensively discussed and planned in advance by Crow, LGM, and others who will show up in the vote I'm sure. That said, whether there is any real interest in preventing Discord users from dictating the moderation of this wiki, is an unresolved matter. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 00:39, 25 August 2020 (UTC) :::::You got completely the wrong information and Raven, to put it mildly, does not not know what he's talking about. Neither do you. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 00:53, 25 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::@D. I have no interest in banning anyone. I do think that the rules for dealing with small potatoes disruptions is backwards. Perhaps we should have special rules for our sysops. Something to the effect that if moderators think you are being disruptive, according to the claims of other sysops, then a short time-out may be imposed. Rather than go to the coop first to authorize a short block, or editor's holiday, the blocked editor must either accept the short block (1-48 hours, maybe) or appeal to the coop to overturn it. After that, any new block must depend on offences subsequent to the end of the old block. Let me add, I have never been on Discord and I have no beef with GR.[[User:Ariel31459|Ariel31459]] ([[User talk:Ariel31459|talk]]) 00:56, 25 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::Are people being banned because of Discord drama? [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 03:13, 25 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::: It's mostly wiki behavior involving a lot of wiki users that have no account on Discord servers. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 03:39, 25 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::I virtually never use discord and have never coincided with the user in question. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:03, 25 August 2020 (UTC) :I have no idea why anyone thinks Raven is being banned for Discord drama. The details of the coop case are written out in great detail by LGM, where she demonstrates misbehavior from Raven on the wiki itself. I oppose banning Raven and even I see that. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 04:24, 25 August 2020 (UTC) ::I frankly lack the time to read all this drama. But a scan of the page turns up 37 references to &quot;discord&quot; and only 6 for &quot;community standards&quot;.[[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|&lt;sup&gt;&quot;Life is short and (insert adjective)&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 17:55, 25 August 2020 (UTC) :::I suggest closing this coop then? Seems like weak sauce anyhow. {{User:GR/sig}} 17:56, 25 August 2020 (UTC) ::::{{ping|Bob M}} - That's because the accused keeps dragging this into being about &quot;Discord&quot; and not about &quot;community standards&quot; when it's not about &quot;Discord&quot;. To be clear, this entire coop so far has been presenting a complaint, and the counterevidence from GR being a [[Poisoning the well|mixture of smears]] or [[Not even wrong|not addressing the complaint at all]]. Discord comes more often up because that's his specific technique of not addressing the complaint, which has zero to do with drama on discord. Try to not get caught up in word count here. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 18:26, 25 August 2020 (UTC) :::::[[RationalWiki:Chicken_coop#Testimony on what happened on Ratcord]] {{User:GR/sig}} 18:28, 25 August 2020 (UTC) {{od}}Once again, evidence does not connect. That testimony was from an unrelated user, not in the original complaint and it is pointed out (by yours truly) that the accusations cannot even feasibly connect to the complaint made by LGM since the people having issue with you on the Wiki weren't participants in that particular discussion (and the majority of the people as a whole who have issue with you on the wiki aren't even active or on that Discord either to begin with). This is not Discord drama. Stop pretending it is, the argument is so bad at this point that it becomes [[Not even wrong]]. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 18:31, 25 August 2020 (UTC) ::No Raven stop trying to avoid responsibility. There are more than enough members here who have expressed serious concern. We will have a vote to see if the community agrees with banning you and if not blocking you for a few days to at least send a message. Voting begins tomorrow. {{ping|Bob M}} As for Bob the discord part is only a minor portion of the problems despite how often it comes up. lGM has stated a strong case which you admitted you didn't read. It is a strong statement regardless of anything said about discord. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:33, 25 August 2020 (UTC) ===Edit warring on his own coop case=== {{collapse|Off-topic}} GR please don't collapse content on your own coop case, you must realise that it reflects terribly on you. Also do not edit war with a user on a coop or policy case. For the same reason. I and other users consider that content no where near as relevant but still representative of the problem. Leave it where it is and don't collapse it again. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:17, 25 August 2020 (UTC) :I didn't collapse anything. I ''uncollapsed'' it. Jesus, look at the fossil record. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:19, 25 August 2020 (UTC) ::Plus, this is not editwarring. The 3RR wasn't violated. Plus, it was LGM and Crow who are trying to cover up stuff. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&amp;diff=2218237&amp;oldid=2218235][https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=2218291] Will you apologize now for your mistake? {{ping|Shabidoo}} {{User:GR/sig}} 21:27, 25 August 2020 (UTC) :::What are they trying to cover up? They were just dismissing that as not being especially relevant, at least not as much as all of the evidence they gathered. Indeed, that is actually a conciliatory move to their critics, who would rather nothing relating to discord come up at all.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 21:31, 25 August 2020 (UTC) ::::I'm tired of this assumption of bad faith. Flandres understands a lot better what I'm trying to do, trying to do a conciliatory move, exactly that. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 21:43, 25 August 2020 (UTC) {{od|4}} LGM and Crow should know better than to collapse comments on a case they are heavily involved in. It makes it look a lot like they want to direct the narrative of their case. Ignoring that. It's irrelevant and nobody cares. I'm going to undo it because I can. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:07, 25 August 2020 (UTC) :Does it really? After you can read numerous posts saying several users would rather have discord come up as little as possible?-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 22:10, 25 August 2020 (UTC) ::It is relevant because of the brigading. Which happened. In this coop. And the proof is right there. {{User:GR/sig}} 22:11, 25 August 2020 (UTC) :::Actually, your &quot;proof&quot; has been ripped to shreds. Please stop derailing the conversation with false allegations and blatant sophistry.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 22:13, 25 August 2020 (UTC) ::::The user in question asked LGM if he could post that section in advance on Discord, LGM said yes. In short she collapsed comments she sanctioned after realising it wasn't helping. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:15, 25 August 2020 (UTC) :::::That would still not be the shadowy conspiracy you make it out to be. One user thought his background knowledge of GR might be useful. Once posted, much of the rest of the community decided it was not. Judged irrelevant, it was collapsed accordingly.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 22:17, 25 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Don't perform mod actions when you are personally involved in the case. Don't collapse comments on mod pages unless absolutely required. It ain't rocket science. Now shut the fuck up, and focus on something else. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:25, 25 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::{{ping|D}} Please ignore Flandres. He is a troll and shitflinger. He provokes us in order to make us upset so that he can point fingers at our reactions. That's basically their side's modus operandi. {{User:GR/sig}} 22:27, 25 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::You assume the worst from me! I can't explain ''anything'' about my actions. Anything I do is considered &quot;silencing&quot; or &quot;abuse to power&quot;. Flandres understands me and that's giving me hope because I'm going completely insane from all these ''insistent'' bad-faith accusations leveraged to me by Raven and Dysk. I tried to explain, it's supposed to tuck away conversation as not relevant and not evidence for my issue with Raven. But Raven and you are conjuring up the worst assumptions about me and while I explain you keep insisting and insisting your assumptions about me are more accurate than my own explanations and pick apart and blow up the smallest contradiction in logic as me lying. I resent this. And now hastur and Revolverman are ready to not believe me either and are completely misunderstanding this issue. Dysk, why are you listening to this guy who's trying to smear one of our community members? {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 01:53, 26 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::I am not, personally, assuming bad faith. Rather, I think that you see that Raven is at odds with users like GC, who you prefer, and you've elected to blame Raven for everything. You're playing favorites, basically. Also you seem bizarrely beholden to the opinions on Ratcord; I don't understand why you're so thirsty for their approval. Does Godless Raven sometimes have unhealthy reactions to the hostility he is presented with? Yes, of course. I do try to be reasonable and I've told Raven personally that some of what he does isn't good for him or for the wiki. But he is a good person and a good editor, and what evidence you've presented against him is not compelling enough to ban him, at least according to how we've always done things on this site. You may not think precedent matters, but I believe it is important that we apply the rules evenly.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 02:06, 26 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::Hastur, I try to get opinions from others to possibly get any sort of quick amends, disagreements, etc. I was in that same spot as you, the exact same spot to give him advice and help him stay out of trouble. I still think he's a good person and a good editor but he's not a good team player. His reactions are very unhealthy. As for GC, I indef banned GC and he asked me through Discord, and I refused because I don't think it's good to possibly escalate this coop. Raven is trying to deflect to others and the conversation has been shifted to my defense. I don't think Raven's conduct is so easily dismissed as &quot;just insults&quot;, especially since it's spread across several users and got tangled in several coop cases and proposals for topic bans. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 02:13, 26 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::If he's such a bad team player, why does he get along with Dysk and I? Because we approached him in good faith. Despite our differences (and believe me, there are differences), we have been able communicate effectively and work towards a common goal. That's all we need to do. Unfortunately, when Raven first arrived he was faced with a great deal of animosity. So ''of course'' he responded in kind. It's only human. Let this blow over and the next time there's a mainspace content dispute involving him I will personally mediate-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 02:19, 26 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::::But there's a bigger list of people he can't cooperate as well as many content disputes that blew completely out of proportion. I approached him in good faith, don't assume I didn't. I thought Oxy initially went too far in trying to oppose Raven. I tried to stop conflicts with Oxy and Raven before. I DMd him and had better conversations. I gave him advice on how he can improve on the wiki and how to improve the community. I had the idea maybe he could work in the wiki too and I gave him benefit of the doubt until he kept being really really nasty to all his perceived enemies. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 02:27, 26 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::::You don't see how Oxy instigating this infected discourse around Raven in the first place? Because that bigger list of people you're talking about tend to rally around Oxyaena. Raven has demonstrated that he is willing to engage in constructive discussions to improve the site, which is why I think we should keep him. You have demonstrated that when attacked he gets defensive and upset, and it seems silly to ban him for that-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 02:33, 26 August 2020 (UTC) :I have to question whether we should be collapsing comments at all. It ALWAYS leads to edit warring and escalates whatever is happening. We should know better than to try and pettily shut down discussions. If you don't want to read it you don't have to collapse it. Just skip on past to the next section or move to a different page.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 00:47, 26 August 2020 (UTC) :::Hastur, please stop trying to portray Raven as some victim of some animosity campaign on the wiki. His unprovoked behaviour during his first weeks in the wiki was obnoxious enough for the community to nearly ban him and enough to vote to block him. A casual view of the coop case made (his first coop) and the evidence presented will show disruptive behaviour, much of it completely utterly unprovoked. I can only assume you never read it and were not here to witness it. Much of the hostility towards him was WELL DESERVED. Just take a simple read through this entire coop case and you'll see tons of Raven's inability to work through the problems and several times wilfully make things worse. And even if your case is true (which it totally isn't) a dozen other users would have found a way to work through that hostility without alienating people, provoking others, resisting endless attempts to get over disagreements and work it out. The &quot;victim of hostility&quot; argument is a white-washing of a problem user. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:30, 26 August 2020 (UTC) :: Bigtime this. Its incredible insulting and provocative on anything but the most obvious drive by trolling. [[User:Revolverman|Revolverman]] ([[User talk:Revolverman|talk]]) 01:38, 26 August 2020 (UTC) {{collapse end}} {{modhat}} All right, I collapsed this. Raven and Dysk are correct that this is a tangential subject that shouldn't be there, being purely Discord drama and not relevant to wiki activity. i.e. it's off-topic. I want the this conversation to be here purely archived, but to not be considered when discussing Raven's behavior. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 02:45, 26 August 2020 (UTC) == Is this fucking thing still going... == ...Jesus fucking christ. It's now drifting so far beyond a Coop Case that it should be summarily archived and forgotten about. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 21:48, 25 August 2020 (UTC) :Agreed. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:49, 25 August 2020 (UTC) :Vote’s coming up pretty soon, so this is almost over. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:50, 25 August 2020 (UTC) ::Well, that's what you get when the 48 hours deadline is insisted on for voting. Things tend to take a while.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 21:52, 25 August 2020 (UTC) :::I think Ace is referring to how idiotic this whole situation is rather than the time interval. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:54, 25 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Yes, all the deflecting tangents about the conduct of other users, the misrepresentation of the opposing arguments, false allegations of discord plotting, and insisting shabidoo is a toxic user in hindsight did not help the quality of the discussion.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 22:00, 25 August 2020 (UTC) :::::Of course, there is still the issue no evidence of Raven's alleged misconduct has been presented. I can't find any misconduct, merely a bunch of morons bickering. To me it's obviously a witchhunt. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:13, 25 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Did you read the giant post Lefty opened this with?-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 22:14, 25 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::The one with no evidence. Yeah, I did. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 22:16, 25 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::If you had undone the collapse (as it seemed when I reviewed the pages) then I apologise Raven and take it back. This might be a shining example of how easy it is to concede a point and admit that someone screwed up (me in this case obviously). Ace, we will see tomorrow how much the community agrees with your dismissal of these problems or not. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 23:52, 25 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::You're in complete denial, Dysk. &quot;it's not evidence&quot; &quot;he started it&quot; &quot;he did it too&quot;. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 01:23, 26 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::If calling people &quot;hacks&quot; is considered a violation of the community standards then we'd better start a few dozen more ban votes-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 01:32, 26 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::You're completely misunderstanding this problem. I didn't put out one or two insults. It's a recurring overall pattern of behavior that all adds up. Come on! {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 01:54, 26 August 2020 (UTC) Man, and I thought Theory of Practice and I got into it. You think this guy was Dirk, or something.... [[User:Revolverman|Revolverman]] ([[User talk:Revolverman|talk]]) 01:34, 26 August 2020 (UTC) ::This Coop comprises nearly ten thousand words of text. Who has time for this? &lt;youtube&gt;https://youtu.be/xpAvcGcEc0k?t=48&lt;/youtube&gt; [[User:Ariel31459|Ariel31459]] ([[User talk:Ariel31459|talk]]) 03:36, 26 August 2020 (UTC) :::Ariel, don't you think the fact that a user who has only been around for a few weeks, has generated two coops, one of which is 10,000 words of text, indicates that there is a serious problem? [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:48, 26 August 2020 (UTC) ::::He's been here for a few months, been through three coops. He went through two accounts. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/GR GR] and [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/GR~2020 GR~2020]. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 04:00, 26 August 2020 (UTC) ::::@Shabi: Now I am not criticizing you all for being frustrated with this guy. I just think you are going about this backwards. The guy's causing problems. Make a resolution, if they keep it up, such and such will happen. Either anyone can do it or give the job to LGM if he wants it. Why all this drama? Mobs can be vicious. Now is a good time to start.[[User:Ariel31459|Ariel31459]] ([[User talk:Ariel31459|talk]]) 04:35, 26 August 2020 (UTC) :::::There was a resolution a month ago, from Archive140. He was told to keep low, handle conflict better, stay out of trouble, be nicer, etc. We're back here. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 04:44, 26 August 2020 (UTC) :::He was given probation last time with the idea that if he misbehaved he would be blocked or worse. He was then blocked...no change. He was then expelled by an admin and somebody undid it. What you call drama is people trying to find a solution. Probation didn't work. I asked if blocks were feasible on the &quot;allthingsinmoderation&quot; page and nobody responded. We will see tomorrow how the rest of the community feels. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:50, 26 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Dysk did it if I am not mistaken. It appears they have a vito. They seem reasonable enough. Ask Dysk to solve the problem. Make it their problem.[[User:Ariel31459|Ariel31459]] ([[User talk:Ariel31459|talk]]) 05:11, 26 August 2020 (UTC) == I have some questions, Raven == Please understand, I just want to try to see your point of view in these conflicts. I'd like if you explain to me your thought processes that led to these posts. Do you believe they are justified? *https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:GR&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217044 {{quotebox|Temporarily back. Maybe RW is not lost. Users left to expel: *Oxyaena *GrammarCommie *Shabidoo *Flandres *Crow}} Why did you make this hit list? Do you regret it? Why? Did you consider why these five users are not acting friendly to you? *https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217419 {{quotebox|I will however apologize '''to the community''' for creating a hit list. That was uncalled for and immature.}} Why is your apology vague? Why do you keep making your apologizes conditional? *https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217895 {{quotebox|Yep. Duce and RWRW were poisoned against me from the beginning, but I apologized and made up for it. If people approach me with humanity, I'll happily give back. Oxy and GC from day one wanted to eliminate me; Dysk has evidence of a hitlist that GC and Oxy made (I know LGM and others won't care when those two make hitlists). Those who wanted to cooperate with me have not experienced any pain and I did so because I care about the wiki. This isn't borne out of disagreement either: Dysk is an anarchist and RWRW is a libertarian. I can be civil if people treat me fairly, which Oxy, GC, Flandres, Shabidoo, Crow and LGM never cared about. {{t|User:GR/sig}} 19:34, 24 August 2020 (UTC)}} Give me evidence of a hitlist. If it's on Discord, then will you show me that it's not Discord drama; i.e. it's relevant to the wiki? Why do you think they are hostile to you? By asking you this, do you think I don't care about the hitlist? *https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217083 {{quotebox|I know, when I do it it's &quot;too far&quot;. Flandres, you're a hack. You have no moral backbone. You don't even edit mainspace; the only thing you do is inflate Saloon Bar with garbage and start feuds. You should leave as well for this space to become less of a toxic hellscape. {{t|User:GR/sig}} 01:50, 23 August 2020 (UTC)}} Why did you post this? Do you believe it is justified? Do you believe there are other ways of communicating your discontent with Flandres? *https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2218419 as stated in support chat: You've been removing my collapse that tried to discount and shelve away Discord drama. Do you then count Discord drama as a valid component of this coop? I will open the discussion around Discord interactions if you believe the collapse shouldn't have happened. I will listen. I want to understand better. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 03:32, 26 August 2020 (UTC) == A Proposal(not to be voted on just yet) == Since most of this drama seems to stem from the edits GR makes to Leftism-related articles, perhaps we should topic ban him from said articles. There is no other component to the proposal, no sysoprevoke, no interaction ban, nothing related to discord, no forced apologies/retractions, not even a saloon topic ban(so he could still start a thread or comment in one relating to this). By attacking this at the source we do more to end the conflict whilst still satisfying those who like his other contributions and want to keep him around. And before anyone says I am suppressing critique of far-left politics or something absurd like that, a cursory examination of the talk pages of several articles disputed before he arrived shows he is not in any sense the only user who disagrees with radical leftism and even though other users end up confronting the same people as GR (GC and Oxy of course spring to mind, but there are others) they cause WAY less drama in the process. Did we coop Bongolian for his disagreements on the matter of Tara Reade, as litigated on the Joe Biden page? Or what about Duce and Comrade Yutyo(if anyone still remembers that)? We do not actually lose anything other than giving a few users a chance to re-litigate old personal disputes with this solution.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 05:11, 26 August 2020 (UTC) :The Tara Reade example is completely off the wall. 1) I did not act in an uncivil or belligerent manner in any way regarding that dispute. 2) I prevailed in that dispute. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:30, 26 August 2020 (UTC) ::That is what I meant. You handled the disagreement well. All of this is not the inevitable and necessary result of having an edit conflict over articles over fairly similar root causes(left wing slant in main space that might just go a bit too far). Thus, there are people who believe our articles can lean too far to the left, say that, and ultimate carry the day whilst still behaving in a constructive manner.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 09:59, 26 August 2020 (UTC) :::OK. Late night misreading on my part, I guess. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 16:06, 26 August 2020 (UTC) ::{{ping|Bongolian}} Since Flanders won't present an example where I cooperated despite divergence of opinion/approach, go check the [[Karl Marx]] article. Me and {{ping|Hastur}} resolved our differences amicably. Here are some diffs: ::*[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Karl_Marx&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2209577][https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Karl_Marx&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=2209577][https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Karl_Marx&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=2209578][https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Karl_Marx&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=2209656] ::*[[Talk:Karl_Marx|talk page]]: [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Karl_Marx&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2209609][https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Karl_Marx&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=2209609][https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Karl_Marx&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=2209625][https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Karl_Marx&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=2209630][https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Karl_Marx&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=2209631][https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Karl_Marx&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=2209632][https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Karl_Marx&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=2209633] ::All you need to do for me to be polite to you is not be an obnoxious troll, start attacking me (e.g. &quot;Can we talk about goddless raven being a lying piece of shit?&quot; [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Karl_Marx&amp;diff=2212275&amp;oldid=2210961]) and just treat me fairly. The people who want me banned never cared about that and will probably never be inclined to do so. {{User:GR/sig}} 10:25, 26 August 2020 (UTC) :::There are also several people who get along with me just fine: Dysk, Ze, Hastur, Duce (who initially I clashed with), RWRW (who initially I clashed with), CoryUsar [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2217153&amp;oldid=2217135]... {{User:GR/sig}} 10:29, 26 August 2020 (UTC) ::::I am not saying you have never solved a dispute in a civil manner. I am saying you tend to escalate much more often than de-escalate, especially with a specific group of users you tend to assume bad faith in(shabidoo and crow for instance). The way you handled Karl Marx dispute is the exception, not the rule. And I am trying to provide a alternative to banning that still brings peace to the community so saying I am out to permaban you is not really true here.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 10:34, 26 August 2020 (UTC) :::::I have around 3000 edits. Did you check all of them to make that claim? {{User:GR/sig}} 10:39, 26 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Well, your conflicts on most of these pages have already been mentioned extensively by others and are well known to the community at large. Also, I am not talking about your contributions as a whole, merely those parts that would be subject to this topic ban.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 10:42, 26 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::How about your lot stopping to generate drama and conflict? Oxy already made peace with me and I pledge to not revert her stuff; if I see an issue, I will send an intermediary. So how about you, LGM, Crow, Shabidoo, etc. do the same? Just avoid me and do your thing? {{User:GR/sig}} 10:57, 26 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::But I am not trying to generate drama(also even one of your own allies disagree with what you said about shabidoo). Again, you escalate by making baseless accusations of bad faith when others are making simple suggestions or pointing out flaws in your conduct. If this topic ban were followed I would have no need to interact with you, because nothing else you do is especially bad. Thus it brings peace to the site. What is wrong with the topic ban?-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 11:01, 26 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Because it implies (without evidence) that my edits on this subject are by default bad, when, in fact, the problem is the concerning individuals wanting to obstruct me. Hastur cooperated with me to work on the [[Karl Marx]] article. He approached me in good faith and like a person rather than an enemy. An interaction *will* work better because it is a certain group of people - a vocal minority - who persecute me, not the other way around. {{User:GR/sig}} 11:09, 26 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::: I know I've only been here a month, but from my short time knowing him, I haven't had any issues with GR. I believe in just getting our heads down, working together and fulfilling our goals. Civility and a fair-handed approach to things is all we need.[[User:Fowler|Fowler]] ([[User talk:Fowler|talk]]) 11:39, 26 August 2020 (UTC) Answer my questions, GR. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:56, 26 August 2020 (UTC) == Le Vote == Votes may be cast below after 18:00 UTC 26 August 2020 (48 hours after [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&amp;diff=2217839&amp;oldid=2216348 case opening]) and voting will end 96 hours (4 days) later. === The ban vote === This is the vote on the proposal to permanently ban GR from RationalWiki. The question is; permanently ban GR (Aye); or, don't ban GR (Nay). ==== Aye ==== # After this recent display of sysop abuse, no way I'm not voting Aye. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 18:04, 26 August 2020 (UTC) # Considering GR's behaviour alone on this coop case this is an emminently sensible thing to do. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:07, 26 August 2020 (UTC) # I'll advise GR that if he keeps up this childish drama, my vote will not change. If he calms down, my vote might. [[User:Soundwave106|Soundwave106]] ([[User talk:Soundwave106|talk]]) 19:03, 26 August 2020 (UTC) # they have been nothing but a toxic influence [[User:AMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] ([[User talk:AMassiveGay|talk]]) 19:29, 26 August 2020 (UTC) #GR's behavior has been dragged out for well over a month. I've written huge chunks of my interaction with him and he was let off with probation the first time. I don't think granting him another chance (even with a difficult-to-enforce topic ban) is going to change things. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 19:43, 26 August 2020 (UTC) #This evildoer is worse than UT. UT never tried to ban people.{{User:Summa Atheologica/sig}} 01:22, 27 August 2020 (UTC) #I don't take the proposed kickbanning of a member lightly. Nevertheless, in this case I say yes. Enough with the drama and uncivil, childish behavior. —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:44, 27 August 2020 (UTC) #[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 03:02, 27 August 2020 (UTC) #More trouble than he's worth. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 09:03, 27 August 2020 (UTC) #:I thought you said you would give me &quot;one more chance&quot;? {{ping|Spud}} [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation#Goat_.28not_a_vote.29] {{User:GR/sig}} 09:07, 27 August 2020 (UTC) #::The coop was your last chance. Perhaps Spud should do a coop about your behavior within this coop? {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 09:13, 27 August 2020 (UTC) #::Also, answer my questions, please. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 09:14, 27 August 2020 (UTC) #:::Like I said, when I wrote that, I didn't know a Coop case against you had already started. So, yes, I think you've had your last chance. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 09:18, 27 August 2020 (UTC) #::::I am asking you to reconsider, {{ping|Spud}}. Did you read the coop page? LGM has duplicated sections for her own gain, collapsed comments that she brigaded for in her discord server; you can do a simple Ctrl+F &quot;answer my question&quot; where LGM consistently hammers me with answering bad faith questions. By this vote you are implying I am the sole problem of all of this, discounting all the hounding I get. It's up to you of course, but I ''thought'' you were reasonable and responsive to counter arguments. {{User:GR/sig}} 09:22, 27 August 2020 (UTC) #:::::Do not misrepresent my intents and judgements, Raven. Those questions are designed for you to describe your thought processes behind your judgement decisions. They are designed to help people understand why you act a certain way and can help you self-reflect on why people, including Spud, treat you a certain way. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 09:25, 27 August 2020 (UTC) #Never should've been allowed to join in the first place.[[User:Adam Warlock|Adam Warlock]] ([[User talk:Adam Warlock|talk]]) 15:12, 27 August 2020 (UTC) #I would have preferred a medium-term block, like 1-3 months, but that is not on the table. The topic ban is likely unworkable due to its complexity and the that GR would probably not cooperate (based on his vote). No punishment at all means that there will likely be another coop case regarding GR. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:32, 27 August 2020 (UTC) #:Why is that not on the table? Since when do we go straight for the nuclear option? This is not RationalWiki.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 18:43, 27 August 2020 (UTC) #::Eh, Hastur. Let them have their win. I'm already deleting my stuff and I will ask Dysk to permanently delete some stuff for me. {{User:GR/sig}} 18:44, 27 August 2020 (UTC) #:::1) The reason that such option wasn't proposed is probably because it was tried with GR in a previous coop case and it turned into a mess. 2) GR can't actually delete anything other than what is on his home page. There is no need for GR to contact Dysk about this. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 18:58, 27 August 2020 (UTC) #::::Yes, that is what I meant. I want to delete my userspace stuff permanently. {{User:GR/sig}} 18:59, 27 August 2020 (UTC) #:::::That's fine. Your userspace talk pages should remain (archiving is fine). [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 19:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC) #I originally didn't want to vote because I wasn't heavily following the drama that led up to this but I think the attempts to derail the subject on All things in moderation was enough, as bongolian said sadly a temp block isn't on the table. [[User:Vorarchivist|Vorarchivist]] ([[User talk:Vorarchivist|talk]]) 20:02, 27 August 2020 (UTC) #This is too much for me to just sit by on the discord and watch in horror at Ravens continued atrocious behaviour (and seeming ability to get others to abuse power to defend him/avoid consequences, along with his own abuses of power and general behaviour and repeated patterns of misdirection) - the specifics have been articulated by many already so i won't go into them nya - i've been avoiding edits at least in part because of his own behaviour (tho tbf i don't edit that much). nyaa [[User:sapient_cogbag|&lt;font face=&quot;Consolas, Monospace&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;⏣sapient_cogbag⏣&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;font face=&quot;Consolas, Monospace&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[all-lowercase name pls]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt;[[User_talk:sapient_cogbag| &lt;font face=&quot;Consolas, Monospace&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;i&gt;talk&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] 02:31, 28 August 2020 (UTC) #Recent bad behavior has made me reconsider. Specifically the decision to join the Support Server to antagonize LGM while admitting that he likes starting drama. I no longer believe that Raven is the kind of personality worth keeping around. A shame, but a conclusion I can no longer avoid. This decision was some time in coming. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 01:00, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #Originally voted not to ban, but now changing my vote to support banning. Raven supposedly left the wiki and set up a new one, but he came back today in a trolling spree that has derailed 2 votes on different pages (mod noticeboard and community standards) and caused a Mod to resign. Enough is enough for me. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 20:54, 2 September 2020 (UTC) &lt;s&gt;I really don't like the idea of permabanning people lightly and would have initially supported sysoprevoke and blocks of increasing lengths with further transgressions. However, his behavior in and around the coop these couple of days has been so unconstructive, that I don't think he's redeemable any more.[[User:Coigreach|Coigreach]] ([[User talk:Coigreach|talk]]) 17:11, 27 August 2020 (UTC)&lt;/s&gt; Changing my vote due to being convinced in Community Standards talk page. Will justify the change there.[[User:Coigreach|Coigreach]] ([[User talk:Coigreach|talk]]) 16:03, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ==== Nay ==== # Raven hasn't done anything worthy of a ban. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:20, 26 August 2020 (UTC) # I'm against perma-banning in general, should be reserved for extreme cases. Rather, incrementally increasing regular bans, or promotion, or whatever. [[User:CorruptUser|CoryUsar]] ([[User talk:CorruptUser|talk]]) 19:25, 26 August 2020 (UTC) #:[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Chicken_coop/Archive104#A_vote Here's Archive104] (a lengthy, tiring coop like this one, on Raven). Basically, Raven was let with a temporary ban with a probation. He served this ban and stayed out for a week or so. He was promised to keep a low profile and quietly edit pages. Here we are right now. Throughout his history, he had been through three coops. He was given over a month to improve. Anyhow, this is why some of us advocate such a strong position. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 19:41, 26 August 2020 (UTC) #::LGM, please show us where you're getting that he was on probation. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 23:02, 26 August 2020 (UTC) #:::[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive24#Re:_Raven] {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 23:08, 26 August 2020 (UTC) #::::I don't see that as among the options people were voting on. What am I missing? [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 23:12, 26 August 2020 (UTC) #:::::The implications are there. Sysoprevoke was in favor. People clearly directly expressed obvious explicit expectations for Raven to improve and stay out of drama. This coop was made because those expectations were spectacularly failed. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 23:18, 26 August 2020 (UTC) #::::::Just to be clear, your claims that he was on probation are based on what you believe are the implications of a prior coop in which that was not actually voted on. Am I understanding you correctly? [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 23:32, 26 August 2020 (UTC) #:::::::Between exactly where the votes were held gets kind of confusing between coop and all things in moderation. However, there was clear expectations for improvement on this behavior. It's commonly agreed that his behavior is unreasonable and that next time Raven messes up, it's a coop case. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 23:49, 26 August 2020 (UTC) #::::::::I'm with Nutty here, and not just because he is my lover. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 00:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC) # No evidence presented that Raven did fuck all wrong since the last coop, appears to be a rehash of rookie mistakes that ended and were apologised for already. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 19:53, 26 August 2020 (UTC) # Permaban over this shit? Hell no. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:10, 26 August 2020 (UTC) # Must log on to RW more often/regularly [[User:Scream!!|Scream!!]] ([[User talk:Scream!!|talk]]) 22:42, 26 August 2020 (UTC) # [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 23:04, 26 August 2020 (UTC) #Ridiculous. This is a good faith editor who works hard for the wiki. He was very poorly welcomed and in spite of that he continued to improve the wiki-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 04:33, 27 August 2020 (UTC) # &lt;s&gt;I’ll vote not to ban, but goodwill from me won’t be extended again should we see a return of “the hit list” or any other attempt to drive people off the site&lt;/s&gt;. —[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 13:19, 27 August 2020 (UTC) #:Yeah that's fair enough. {{User:GR/sig}} 14:50, 27 August 2020 (UTC) #::Moving vote to ban. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 20:54, 2 September 2020 (UTC) # [[User:RobSmith|nobs]][[User talk:RobSmith|&lt;sup&gt;Black Guns Matter&lt;/sup&gt;]] 19:54, 27 August 2020 (UTC) #A fair chunk of the ''ayes'' would never dream of agitating for the defenestration of their pet assholes, despite identical - or worse - behaviour than that listed above. Bollocks to selective enforcement. [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 21:16, 29 August 2020 (UTC) #:Nothing is stopping you from starting a coop on what you lovingly labelled our &quot;pet-assholes&quot;.[[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:04, 29 August 2020 (UTC) #::''&quot;Hi, I'm Shabi, and I'm one of the hypocrites HBC is talking about!&quot;'' Have you got any other deep personal failings you'd care to publicly acknowledge, or is that it for tonight? [[User:Helena Bonham Carter|Helena Bonham Carter]] ([[User talk:Helena Bonham Carter|talk]]) 22:27, 29 August 2020 (UTC) #:::Hey, stop. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 22:28, 29 August 2020 (UTC) #::::That's some truly high grade top level radioactive snark HBC. Why don't you inject that into the articles instead of towards users? [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:36, 29 August 2020 (UTC) #:::::Drop it, please, I don't want HBC to be provoked into responding either. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 22:41, 29 August 2020 (UTC) #[[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|&lt;sup&gt;&quot;Life is short and (insert adjective)&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:15, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #Changed my vote due to being convinced in Community Standards talk page. Will justify the change there. TLDR: We shouldn't permaban based on being a nuisance.[[User:Coigreach|Coigreach]] ([[User talk:Coigreach|talk]]) 16:05, 2 September 2020 (UTC) # {{User:GR/sig}} 22:25, 2 September 2020 (UTC) # I’m not gonna wade into the depths of all the drama honestly but I will say that I feel uncomfortable with the idea of going through the banning process while a pretty significant upheaval in the community standards and a discussion of the overall culture/moderation of the wiki is happening. I would prefer those things to remain separate. For this reason I think it’s a better idea to just end this for the time being, then wait and see what happens. {{User:Penguinsfunnylolhaha/sig}} 13:07, 4 September 2020 (UTC) ====Invalid votes==== #&lt;s&gt; Yeah, no [[User:Fowler|Fowler]] ([[User talk:Fowler|talk]]) 18:32, 26 August 2020 (UTC)&lt;/s&gt; #:Invalid, Fowler does not meet [[RationalWiki:Eligible users]]. Account is less than three months old. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 18:35, 26 August 2020 (UTC) #&lt;s&gt;He has definitely misbehaved, and demonstrated a lack of maturity, but permanent bans are not appropriate just for that. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 18:28, 26 August 2020 (UTC)&lt;/s&gt; #:Invalid, Kiko does not meet [[RationalWiki:Eligible users]]. Account is less than three months old. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 18:35, 26 August 2020 (UTC) #&lt;s&gt;{{User:GR/sig}} 18:21, 26 August 2020 (UTC)&lt;/s&gt; #:Invalid, account less than three months old. {{User:GR/sig}} 20:26, 27 August 2020 (UTC) #&lt;s&gt;Don't ban [[User:Khizer|Khizer]] ([[User talk:Khizer|talk]]) 21:46, 28 August 2020 (UTC)&lt;/s&gt; #:Khizer, I am sorry to be the one to tell you this but your vote is not eligible. Your account has to be at least three months old. Again, very sorry!-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 21:55, 28 August 2020 (UTC) === Topic ban vote === This is the vote on the proposal to ban GR, GrammarCommie, and Oxyaena from reverting or making edits to articles related to far-left politics and ideology. The question is; instate this restriction (Aye); or, don't instate this restriction (Nay). ==== Aye ==== # A no brainer. This will not be a problem to enforce if the three users respect the outcome of the vote and if users happen to note the three users editing political and related articles. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:09, 26 August 2020 (UTC) # should have happened in the first coop tbh. {{User:Ze/?}} 18:21, 26 August 2020 (UTC) #I would honestly rather stick with this than have a permaban, though I understand why permabanning is being advocated. How I vote on ''that'' is not quite decided yet but this should have happened a long time ago.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 18:24, 26 August 2020 (UTC) #Long overdue by now.{{User:Summa Atheologica/sig}} 01:23, 27 August 2020 (UTC) #Just in case the total ban fails. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:59, 28 August 2020 (UTC) # T-T-T-Tie breaker. But yeah, given the seemingly not unlikely chance that GR survives his block vote, at least making sure that he pisses off on his blind spots seems like a good start. With that in mind, I also will say that for Oxy and GC, in my eyes this one can be appealed rather quickly, should either of those two want to come back to this subject at some later point (I don't think GR should really have the grounds to be able to appeal this topic ban), but if that's for now what it takes to at least attempt to defuse it all, all the better. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 12:13, 3 September 2020 (UTC) #:Very civil. I will appeal it, however. {{User:GR/sig}} 14:29, 3 September 2020 (UTC) # It looks like this is the only way forward. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 12:34, 3 September 2020 (UTC) #{{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 14:32, 3 September 2020 (UTC) #Seems like a relatively simple way to manage things until the site gets all its ducks in a Row and such. {{User:Penguinsfunnylolhaha/sig}} 13:08, 4 September 2020 (UTC) ==== Nay ==== # No point, Raven made peace with Oxyaena. No conflict remains. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 19:55, 26 August 2020 (UTC) # [[User:Scream!!|Scream!!]] ([[User talk:Scream!!|talk]]) 22:43, 26 August 2020 (UTC) # He has proven to be more than willing to engage in productive discussion when it comes to editing mainspace-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 04:34, 27 August 2020 (UTC) # How is possible to improve or make worse any article on far-left politics and ideology? [[User:RobSmith|nobs]][[User talk:RobSmith|&lt;sup&gt;Black Guns Matter&lt;/sup&gt;]] 19:56, 27 August 2020 (UTC) #:Well, in your case, you'd have to start by learning something about them.[[User:Ariel31459|Ariel31459]] ([[User talk:Ariel31459|talk]]) 16:31, 28 August 2020 (UTC) # {{User:GR/sig}} 22:26, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ====Invalid votes==== #&lt;s&gt; Definitely aye, as per Shabidoo. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 18:28, 26 August 2020 (UTC)&lt;/s&gt; #:Kiko, I apologize for being the one to tell you this, but unless your account is more than three months old you are not eligible to vote.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 18:40, 26 August 2020 (UTC) #&lt;s&gt;Ridiculous. {{User:GR/sig}} 19:56, 26 August 2020 (UTC)&lt;/s&gt; #:Invalid, account less than three months old. {{User:GR/sig}} 20:27, 27 August 2020 (UTC) === Goat === {{hatnote|This section is used to discuss all potential options/discussion related to the vote that does not fit in with a specific section.}} * To avoid over-complications, I've kept it simple this time. Of course a topic ban is impractical to enforce, symbolic at best. Perhaps pointless, as the conflict over the leftism articles ended already. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 15:54, 26 August 2020 (UTC) * So that we don't get this specific situation again, how are we applying the vote within regards to sanctions? ie. If 24 hour gets more votes than permanently block, but permanently block as a whole gets more Ayes within the vote itself (ie. perma: 7-4, 24 hour: 9-5), do we apply a permablock. Same goes for the topic ban. I want this clarified, because last time it resulted in the outcome being deemed a mess. Personally, I'd say that the heaviest majority goes (so if perma gets more Ayes than Nays, it's a perma, even if 24 hour has technically more Ayes). {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:14, 26 August 2020 (UTC) *:Yes, what matters is the amount of ayes being larger than the amount of nays for each option. {{User:GR/sig}} 17:15, 26 August 2020 (UTC) *::No, I mean, let's say that the permanent block gets 6 Ayes and 5 Nays. The 24 hour block gets 7 Ayes and 4 Nays. I'd say that in this situation, we ''still'' apply the permablock, because it's the heaviest punishment that won the Aye/Naye options. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:17, 26 August 2020 (UTC) *:::Yes, Crow, the mathematical union of 24 hours and infinite hours is infinite hours. {{User:GR/sig}} 17:22, 26 August 2020 (UTC) *::::And this is the same kind of bickering that we got last time we had to sanction you. I'm changing this to be more of a simple majority vote, this Aye/Naye business ''clearly'' doesn't work and will lead to a dispute on the outcome. All options applied equally, no Aye/Naye business. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:25, 26 August 2020 (UTC) *:::::If you do, I will revert you. {{User:GR/sig}} 17:27, 26 August 2020 (UTC) *::::::This makes a lot more sense and will hopefully produce less disputes over the outcome. Don't revert me. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:29, 26 August 2020 (UTC) *:::::::Wait until Dysk finds out. {{User:GR/sig}} 17:32, 26 August 2020 (UTC) *::::::::Dysk didn't add a third option, I reworked the vote so that the third option could be applied without this bickering. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:33, 26 August 2020 (UTC) *24 hours seems a bit pointlessly short. I doubt anyone who wants to sanction Raven would go for a duration like that. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 17:19, 26 August 2020 (UTC) *:That is Shabidoo's fault. Not Dysk's. {{User:GR/sig}} 17:22, 26 August 2020 (UTC) *::I honestly think we should just remove the option. That also removes the possibility of a disputed result. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 17:25, 26 August 2020 (UTC) *:::I don't see the issue. Everybody can vote on each option individually. {{User:GR/sig}} 17:26, 26 August 2020 (UTC) *In retrospect, this entire Aye/Naye business seems poorly thought out. All it will result in is bickering over the outcome. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:20, 26 August 2020 (UTC) *My only comment is that I no longer have any beef with Raven, and therefore will not be participating in this coop. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 17:23, 26 August 2020 (UTC) *Yep, Crow is already trying to screw with the vote. {{ping|D}} {{User:GR/sig}} 17:40, 26 August 2020 (UTC) *:I removed the 24 block because, if Raven survives the ban vote, admins can (and I am certain will) block Raven if he is uncivil. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 17:42, 26 August 2020 (UTC) *::No, Ze removed the 24h option and it happened at the wrong moment, so I reverted her on accident. It's fixed now (although I don't get why the topic ban was also removed). {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:44, 26 August 2020 (UTC) *:::{{ping|The Crow}} Stop editwarring. {{User:GR/sig}} 17:45, 26 August 2020 (UTC) *::::It's amusing how GR is trying to discredit the vote before it happens, just like Trump is doing now. But instead of postal fraud it's claiming Crow is trying to screw with the vote. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 17:47, 26 August 2020 (UTC) *:::::Noted. You just called me fraudulent. Not &quot;nasty&quot;, no. {{User:GR/sig}} 17:50, 26 August 2020 (UTC) {{od}} Morons. More ayes than nays carries the vote, vice versa applies. Each vote listed is independent, multiple sanctions may be applied. A tie will result in no action. This is basic electoral knowledge, stop fucking with the layout. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 17:53, 26 August 2020 (UTC) :No. Crow was completely correct. My adding the 24 hour block was a mistake, at it will do is serve to confuse the matter, allow all sorts of bickering over which vote takes precidence, if the 24 hour block has more ayes than the ban, then blah blah blah with all sorts of ammunition to try and discredit the vote. It was a smart idea removing the 24 hour block section that I added...was stupid on my part. Both of you blocking crow for that was extreme overkill. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 17:58, 26 August 2020 (UTC) ::The votes are independent. Crow almost successfully merged them into a guaranteed waste of time, cause his cognitive ability is less than a 5 year old. In any case, he deserves a block for edit-warring... {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 18:04, 26 August 2020 (UTC) ::For editwarring? That's &quot;overkill&quot;? But comparing me to a fraudulent fascist is cool or what? {{User:GR/sig}} 18:00, 26 August 2020 (UTC) :::Dysk just abused his powers by blocking me twice in a row, saying the second time it wasn't a joke block over this shit. This is a clear abuse of power. Furthermore Dysk does not have the right to speak like a mod here, yet he is. Please refer to the CS, we voted on this kinda stuff. Techs aren't mods and shouldn't act like it. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 18:01, 26 August 2020 (UTC) ::::You also don't have the right to twist the coop voting options, either. Yet you did. {{User:GR/sig}} 18:03, 26 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::No he wasn't edit warring there was confusion over who was trying to remove the content (as ze and I tried to do it at the same time and you were also editing which you shouldn't have as you ought not to do anything with the content of your own coop case except comments that defend your case. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:04, 26 August 2020 (UTC) Answer my questions, GR. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:15, 26 August 2020 (UTC) :&lt;s&gt;I have to ask, why only two options to vote for? Why not have a proposal for GR to be desysopped, sysoprevoked, and banned for an appropriate period, say pi (approx 3.1415) weeks or something like that? That would be better in my opinion.&lt;/s&gt; When I cast votes above, I forgot that I'm not an eligible voter. I am aware that my votes were striked out as a result of that. Sorry about that. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) *Sorry if this is a dumb question, but does the voting end four days after the vote begins, or four days after the case is opened?(so by the end of today or two days from now)?-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 19:18, 27 August 2020 (UTC) *:I notice you have problems reading, so let me help you. &lt;code&gt;Votes may be cast below '''''after 18:00 UTC 26 August 2020 (48 hours after case opening)''''' and voting will end 96 hours (4 days) '''''later'''''.&lt;/code&gt; {{User:GR/sig}} 19:21, 27 August 2020 (UTC) *::Needless escalation noted. I thought you were supposed to ''help'' your case...-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 19:24, 27 August 2020 (UTC) * To be clear, I removed my votes because technically I am not eligible due to my account being quite new. I saw Crow and GrammarCommie planning on the RW discord to strike out my vote based on this technicality and thought &quot;if someone is going to remove my vote, I rather do it myself&quot;. I didn't want to give this last taste of blood in their salivating mouths, just to clarify. {{User:GR/sig}} 20:37, 27 August 2020 (UTC) *:I was musing it over, and wondering if our eligibility rules count the password scrambling LANCBs and subsequent return under a new user account. I personally decided that it wasn't worth starting potential drama over, nor do I think it's a good faith effort to do it, so I wasn't planning on it.. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 20:42, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::&lt;s&gt;It does make me wonder, given that the 96 hour time period has passed, why hasn't the vote been closed yet?&lt;/s&gt; [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:52, 31 August 2020 (UTC) *When's the next Mod election? Mod's are supposed to prevent this kinda shit, not stir it up. I'm tossing my hat back in the ring. [[User:RobSmith|nobs]][[User talk:RobSmith|&lt;sup&gt;Black Guns Matter&lt;/sup&gt;]] 03:36, 5 September 2020 (UTC) *:November. Plenty of time to set up exploratory committees, secure funding from corporate PACs etc. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 14:21, 5 September 2020 (UTC) ===Why the fuck...=== Are votes being struck as “invalid” because accounts are less that three months old? This isn’t a moderator or board election, so why the fuck does this matter under mob rule? [[Special:Contributions/2607:FB90:7C93:76E7:382F:88E4:9F88:8AD9|2607:FB90:7C93:76E7:382F:88E4:9F88:8AD9]] ([[User talk:2607:FB90:7C93:76E7:382F:88E4:9F88:8AD9|talk]]) 18:59, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :It prevents people from stuffing votes by bringing friends onto the site.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 19:02, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::Na. The actual answer is that's what the rules require. See [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Eligible_users] [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 19:19, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::: Although, since they're not rules, but merely guidelines, one wonders what the possible motivating for striking them might be. It's a mystery. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 00:28, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::I don't see that being prone to interpretation. Again I don't agree with the vote for this being simple majority even after that the 2/3 requirement is brought to attention. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 00:31, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::::You're welcome to bring this up (getting rid of the three month rule that is) in the discussion in a separate topic Nutty Roux if you really don't like it and think the community should strike it...though I don't think you want that (nor would it be successful). It's an entirely sensible rule that has always been applied to everything (as far as I can remember). [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:38, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::If this rule is going to be applied, then I think we should apply the 2/3 vote and the week long period for that vote. IMO. They're both concrete time periods with explicit numbers being set, we can't be selective on those rules. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 00:40, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::LGM, would you please explain why those words aren't prone to interpretation, where others that use &quot;must&quot; are? [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 00:41, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::One is a rule the community has ignored for several coops (and policy changes) and we are clearing up the matter now. The other is a completely non-contentious rule that we've always applied (and there is seemingly no controversy about). The alternative is changing the rule and if the 2/3 rule doesn't apply, starting up a new coop with the changed policy and going through all of this again. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:46, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::(edit conflict) Answering what violates community standards I think requires degree of interpretation that includes simple violation but also needs to consider the context including severity of violation and overall consideration of wiki upkeep. Some components of community standards themselves are vague ([[RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Conduct|such as here]]), as you stated, thus interpretation is necessary. There's already disagreement on how those are violated and how serious they are in this coop, shown by the vote. However, I don't see much room for interpretation regarding the rules that ''are'' specified: &quot;account must be 3 months old to be eligible&quot; and &quot;any positive result must accrue 2/3 of total votes&quot; and &quot;voting must last from 7-14 days&quot; (where 7-14 is up to discretion but a minimum is explicitly set). Hence, I am arguing that we should respect the 2/3 majority rule. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 00:48, 30 August 2020 (UTC) == Dysk == Just abused his powers by blocking me thrice in a row and claiming it's not a joke block. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 18:01, 26 August 2020 (UTC) :And now GR is doing it as well. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 18:02, 26 August 2020 (UTC) ::You blocked Dysk. {{User:GR/sig}} 18:03, 26 August 2020 (UTC) :::You dishonest little fuck. I blocked Dysk after he blocked me twice. Those 9 hour blocks are fucking annoying, I wanted to show him how annoying that was. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 18:05, 26 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Whoa. How is that allowed? {{User:GR/sig}} 18:06, 26 August 2020 (UTC) :::::{{ping|D}} CUT THIS SHIT OUT. Weren't you the one who was bitching about Recent Changes? Because you and GR are now clogging up Recent Changes with these blatantly abusive blocks. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 18:06, 26 August 2020 (UTC) {{od}}It keeps on happening. I think we might have to add a second coop for Dysk at this rate. This is very similar to Oxy's meltdown and that got her tech rights removed. (Also I got blocked again when making this edit.) {{User:The Crow/sig}} 18:11, 26 August 2020 (UTC) :Are you sure you shouldn't be cooped? &lt;code&gt;You dishonest little fuck. - Crow&lt;/code&gt; {{User:GR/sig}} 18:13, 26 August 2020 (UTC) ::You are deflecting. Again.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 18:14, 26 August 2020 (UTC) {{modhat}} Dysk gets a temp rights revoke for abusing block rights. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:14, 26 August 2020 (UTC) :There was no abuse. You are '''''once again''''' using your mod powers to silence people who don't agree with you. {{User:GR/sig}} 18:15, 26 August 2020 (UTC) ::Answer my questions, GR. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:16, 26 August 2020 (UTC) :::Answer LGMs questions. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 18:17, 26 August 2020 (UTC) Also, answer my questions, GR. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:15, 26 August 2020 (UTC) ===Nonsense=== Crow has been a sysop since 2019. Blocking somebody who can unblock themselves has never been an abuse of block rights. Ridiculous verdict.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 04:37, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :It was repeated blocks, several times in a row while I was trying to edit, therefore '''disrupting''' my ability to edit, since I had to go and unblock myself. Now, I can pull up [[RW:BLOCK]] here, and it already says that &quot;overuse of minute-plus blocks, or blocks against sysops in the middle of editing, are never appreciated by the blockee, and are rather frowned upon&quot;. If we then also look at [[RW:CS]], there is the final line in &quot;Demoting and promoting users&quot;, which states that a moderator can choose to promote anyone out of sysop if their behavior is partiuclarly disruptive, which is demonstrably, in accordance with our blocking policy. LGMs subsequent promotion of Dysk out of tech is also rather obvious, because otherwise it becomes impossible to enforce, ''doubly'' so because Dysk acted with authority that he fundamentally '''doesn't have''' (in fact ''we voted on this'' in the CS months ago to clarify that Techs don't have a higher authority than a regular user in the same way Moderators have when it comes to conflict resolution). This kind of behavior is very close to the same stuff that got Oxy to resign/removed by vote from Tech status and placed in sysoprevoke. Dysk is ''very'' lucky that LGM restored his rights and didn't outright coop his ass and get his Tech rights stripped, because this is the kind of behavior that a Tech does not have the authority to do. It is an abuse of sysop powers and a ''gross'' abuse of the trust associated with holding the Tech role. {{unsigned|The Crow}} 07:31, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::This was already discussed with LGM (on her talk page): she ''once again'' abused her mod powers and, since Dysk is a board member, that may have made LGM rethink her hasty decisions. Also... you blocked Dysk, which means that, if we had equal treatment of users, you would also be promoted. Anyhow, Hastur is using precedent here, which means you are wrong. Also, you called me a &lt;big&gt;&lt;code&gt;[...] dishonest little fuck&lt;/code&gt;&lt;/big&gt;, which is clearly a violation of CS. So, do you want to be promoted, Crow? {{User:GR/sig}} 08:41, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::Answer my questions, GR. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 09:00, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::Also am I an abusive moderator or not? I restored his tech rights after he stopped and when he asked even if I personally believe he doesn't deserve them. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 09:16, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::He is an elected staff member and his tech position isn't in any way dependent whether you consider his position valid or not. Ergo, you didn't have the right to remove it just because you don't like him. {{User:GR/sig}} 09:19, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::Where did I say I removed his tech rights because I didn't like him? Also please answer my questions regarding your thought processes behind your decisions and comments. If you intend to contribute to the community more it will be helpful for people to understand how you make your judgement calls. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 09:22, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::{{ping|GR}} He is an elected board member. He is not a staff member. Please refer to [[RationalWiki:RationalMedia_Foundation/Role]]. He cannot make community decisions, oversee governance or act as an arbitrator in disputes, this is explicily stated there. He fundamentally does not have the same authority as a moderator (clarified in the CS around techs). I wonder how you reach the conclusion that he can do that. That is the task of the moderator position, which he could run for of course, when those elections run around. Furthermore, LGM is ''also'' a board member, if you didn't realize that yet, so your cheap gotcha there doesn't work either. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 09:28, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::Who is saying that he is a moderator or can act like one? {{User:GR/sig}} 09:29, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::: You're practically saying his position being board is relevant to this dispute. What did you think being a board member is about? Why did you bring up Dysk's position as a board? Your question is also a non sequitur and has been addressed in another topic. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 09:33, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::{{ec}} It is relevant because you unilaterally removed his tech and sysop without proper cause nor due process. Again, as Hastur said (which you will ignore again, I am sure), blocking sysops is allowed and does not violate CS. {{User:GR/sig}} 09:36, 27 August 2020 (UTC) : Exactly how is it relevant? What do you think the board position is about? Also it is explicitly outlined that blocking sysops in a way that is disruptive is not recommended. Do not say otherwise. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 09:38, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Also, please explain yourself as I asked you through my questions. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 09:35, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::You're implying it with &quot;since Dysk is a board member&quot;, which with this incident suggests that means he holds some authority on the way the wiki is run (which he doesn't) and that he can provide the structure in order to mediate conflicts (which he can't). Both of those are the purview of the mob and of mods respectively. His &quot;tech position&quot; is entirely dependent on him not abusing his role as a tech by acting like a moderator, which he frankly rather blatantly has been doing for the past few days, leading into this pathetic block war over a confusion on an additional option on the vote that Shabi accidentally added. His status as a board member, ''which you brought up'' as a defense as to why LGM walked it back doesn't make any sense (hell, she is also a board member) nor does it have bearing on this incident. :::::::::Also, answer LGMs questions. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 09:39, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::I didn't imply that. So you misconstrued what I said (that he can act like a mod) and now you are saying that my words have implications that they do not. Here is what I said: &quot;He is an elected staff member and his tech position isn't in any way dependent whether you consider his position valid or not. Ergo, you didn't have the right to remove it just because you don't like him.&quot; {{User:GR/sig}} 09:42, 27 August 2020 (UTC) {{od}}Let's break it down. &quot;He is an elected staff member&quot; &lt;-- I demonstrated he isn't. Board members aren't staff members even if they have that vanity user right called staff. Board members have to do with the RMF, not with the wiki (although of course RMFs technical bits do apply to the wiki, but eh). &quot;his tech position isn't in any way dependent whether you consider his position valid or not&quot; &lt;-- He abused his rights as a sysop, betraying the trust he has instilled into him as a tech. &quot;Ergo, you didn't have the right to remove it just because you don't like him.&quot; &lt;-- again, abuse of rights, '''disrupting''' another editor by repeatedly blocking them for more than 0 seconds after they unblock themselves, which our blocking policy on it's own frowns on already, and the repeated use of it make it a blatant abuse of power and disruptive behavior which our blocking policy is meant to counter. Dysk abused his power as a sysop and since tech rights are given with the trust that Techs won't be disruptive or abuse any of their powers got the consequences for it. Oxy did similar shit and had to resign and was even placed in sysoprevoke. Why are you okay with Dysk doing this very similar shit and not Oxy? {{User:The Crow/sig}} 09:50, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :edit conflict: I don't recall removing Dysk's rights because I didn't like him. I explained earlier. Why are you making blatantly false claims on my intents? Why do you think I restored Dysk's rights after he stopped and requested rights back? {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 09:51, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :That is what I meant with staff member. He is a board member (staff user right group). '''LGM unilaterally removed his tech right without proper cause (no violation of CS) nor due process.''' I will no longer entertain this topic. {{User:GR/sig}} 09:54, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :Also, answer my questions, Raven. Even answer the questions posed in this section regarding your thought processes behind your assumptions of malicious intent. You did not answer them. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 09:56, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::There is no &quot;staff&quot; here. The fact that he is a board member has nothing to do with his tech rights in any way. Answering LGMs questions instead of deflecting and pointing out users far less serious actions will increase the likelihood of you not being banned. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 10:08, 27 August 2020 (UTC) == Answer my questions == *https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:GR&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217044 {{quotebox|Temporarily back. Maybe RW is not lost. Users left to expel: *Oxyaena *GrammarCommie *Shabidoo *Flandres *Crow}} Why did you make this hit list? Do you regret it? Why? Did you consider why these five users are not acting friendly to you? *https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217419 {{quotebox|I will however apologize '''to the community''' for creating a hit list. That was uncalled for and immature.}} Why is your apology vague? Why do you keep making your apologizes conditional? *https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217895 {{quotebox|Yep. Duce and RWRW were poisoned against me from the beginning, but I apologized and made up for it. If people approach me with humanity, I'll happily give back. Oxy and GC from day one wanted to eliminate me; Dysk has evidence of a hitlist that GC and Oxy made (I know LGM and others won't care when those two make hitlists). Those who wanted to cooperate with me have not experienced any pain and I did so because I care about the wiki. This isn't borne out of disagreement either: Dysk is an anarchist and RWRW is a libertarian. I can be civil if people treat me fairly, which Oxy, GC, Flandres, Shabidoo, Crow and LGM never cared about. {{t|User:GR/sig}} 19:34, 24 August 2020 (UTC)}} Give me evidence of a hitlist. If it's on Discord, then will you show me that it's not Discord drama; i.e. it's relevant to the wiki? Why do you think they are hostile to you? By asking you this, do you think I don't care about the hitlist? *https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217083 {{quotebox|I know, when I do it it's &quot;too far&quot;. Flandres, you're a hack. You have no moral backbone. You don't even edit mainspace; the only thing you do is inflate Saloon Bar with garbage and start feuds. You should leave as well for this space to become less of a toxic hellscape. {{t|User:GR/sig}} 01:50, 23 August 2020 (UTC)}} Why did you post this? Do you believe it is justified? Do you believe there are other ways of communicating your discontent with Flandres? *https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Chicken_coop&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2218419 as stated in support chat: You've been removing my collapse that tried to discount and shelve away Discord drama. Do you then count Discord drama as a valid component of this coop? I will open the discussion around Discord interactions if you believe the collapse shouldn't have happened. I will listen. I want to understand better. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 03:32, 26 August 2020 (UTC) :These question are fair, and I would also like to see a response. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 16:29, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::You know, I definitely see why Raven was frustrated. I did tell him that making such a list made things worse not just for him but for the wiki. Which is why he apologized. Not to the subjects of the list (which I don't believe was necessary), but rather to the community, as the list's escalation of conflict was really only harmful to the community as a whole. And Raven has definitely demonstrated that he cares about RationalWiki, its community, and its mission. Does he get frustrated? Is he upset about his treatment? Of course! We would all be, in his shoes. So, what we have to do is ask ourselves &quot;how would I react?&quot; A lot of people, upon being treated how Raven was treated, would have simply packed up and left the site. And Raven has certainly been tempted to do that. But he found a love for this likeminded community and he elected to stay. So, he reacted to the hostility with hostility. Was it the best choice? No. And he's realizing that. But I suspect that many of us here would have reacted the same way. How would you react if you were giving the welcoming committee Raven had been given? -[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 16:58, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::A couple users edit warring with him on a few pages is not an overwhelming hostile reception, just stop exaggerating Hastur. That had nothing to do with the multiple other users who received endless grief from Raven, all completely unprovoked. How would I react? If I found myself being told continuously that I shouldn't behave in a way and that I am creating problems and encountering tension and disputes with many long term-users to a website I had just joined...then I would listen to them, reevaluate my behaviour and adjust it accordingly, something we've been hoping Raven would do throughout these three coops and the second and third chance we've given him. That's how I...and I would hope all new users would react. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 17:10, 27 August 2020 (UTC) == Whirled Peas == OK, no matter how the vote shakes out, there has been some bad behavior by more than just GR. I would like to remind editors that it behooves you to understand [[civility]] and to try to behave civilly. The benefit of behaving civilly is that it does not so easily inflame tempers and it also puts one on the side of good behavior. Also, if you see someone behaving uncivilly, don't ignore it, don't add it to your list of grievances. Try to confront the person right away about it in a civil manner. If that fails, bring it to the attention of a moderator. Thank you. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 04:43, 27 August 2020 (UTC) : Damn, I slept for one night and the debate went from HCM 4 to HCM 2. Let's hope the pattern stops now... or we will hit HCM 0 in no time... and then... HCM -2? [[User:Sqrt-1|The 𝗦𝗾𝗿𝘁-𝟭]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Sqrt-1|&lt;span style=&quot;color: blue&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/span&gt;]] [[Special:Contributions/Sqrt-1|&lt;span style=&quot;color: blue&quot;&gt;stalk&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 07:43, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::I don't think we have to be concerned about HCM 0. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 07:59, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::I know some people think I am uncivil but I think I'm just confronting...but in a civil way. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:14, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::: HCM -1 will happen when people on RW are fighting... but this time in real life. HCM -2 hits when people on RW are fighting in real life... but with guns. HCM -3 hits when people are breaking into RW servers and trying to shut it down while police chase them. HCM -6 happens at the expansive heat death of the universe. [[User:Sqrt-1|The 𝗦𝗾𝗿𝘁-𝟭]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Sqrt-1|&lt;span style=&quot;color: blue&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/span&gt;]] [[Special:Contributions/Sqrt-1|&lt;span style=&quot;color: blue&quot;&gt;stalk&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 11:55, 27 August 2020 (UTC) {{ping|Bongolian}} If it helps, I do intend to reflect on my own role in this for a while. I have trying to be more polite as this coop goes on even when others escalate with me, though I acknowledge the results of that have been mixed.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 13:31, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :You're not the one at fault here. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 14:22, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :Civility is useful while confronting ideas of contemporary importance in a forum such as this wiki. A troll doesn't want to reconcile their ideas with others, and some of us act the part. None of us here have exactly the same ideas and values. Paradoxically, certain humanist ideas are dominant here, despite the fact that those who would claim issue X has a satisfactory, politically-aligned resolution entertain a weak hypothesis. [[User:Ariel31459|Ariel31459]] ([[User talk:Ariel31459|talk]]) 16:25, 27 August 2020 (UTC) == Alright == I don't think more votes will come. You can close the coop case anyway. I will just log out and move on. If I by chance forgot to delete something in my userspace, I would appreciate if it was deleted/hidden, if possible. Thank you. {{User:GR/sig}} 00:55, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :The community went out of its way to establish a procedure for this coop and has tried to accommodate all involved parties as best as it could, given the circumstances. I would strongly recommend that this coop be allowed to complete as planned. Your commitment to log out and move on is noted; however, you have [[LANCB|done this trick before]] and reappeared after a couple of days as if nothing had happened. There's no way we can take what you say as truthful given your past actions. And certainly, no one wants you to come back in here again in three weeks and claim that the coop was shut down prematurely and didn't follow community standards or moderator rules or whatever. Regards —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:07, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::Raven, penalty votes of this nature require a 2/3 majority of all votes cast. As things stand, it's 13/22, or slightly less than 60% aye. Don't give up yet. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 01:36, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :::That requirement has been considered unofficially void for quite some time, as the permabanning of Ken showed.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 01:38, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::::This is actually a very interesting development. I would argue that the banning of Ken Demyer was then invalid.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 01:40, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :::::Even those who voted against it(myself included) did not protest that at the time. That set a precedent. Look at coop archive 101 for more info. Most of the mods were fine with it. The community standards are guidelines, not graven commandments that explicitly overrule the will of the majority.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 01:47, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::I thought we changed the community standards so that they aren't guidelines? Anyways just because we forgot the democratically established rules that govern our community doesn't mean they're invalid. If we have zero adherence to the guidelines that sets an unpleasant precedent. RationalWiki is a mobocracy and there's always going to be some flexibility when it comes to interpreting the rules but permabanning a user is serious enough that it warrants taking the rules seriously-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 01:51, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::Ignoring the standards when you're trying to ban someone for violating the standards without citing any standards he's violated: repulsive. Getting things that wrong doesn't set a precedent. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 02:06, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ===Discussion on voting=== [[RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Common_guidelines]], in addition to the 2/3 vote, also says the penalty vote needs to last for a week. We're in here for a while if that's the case. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 02:23, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :We can leave this open for a week-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 02:25, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::I will point out that the heading there is &quot;Common guidelines&quot; and at the start of the [[RationalWiki:Community Standards]] page, it says, &quot;There are no site rules&quot;. I did not break any rules in permabanning Ken. I did not abuse my powers. I was carrying out the will of the mob. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 03:27, 28 August 2020 (UTC) Nah nobody gives zero shits about the Community Standards. The will of the mob, in the form of LGM, is to get rid of Raven and anyone who supports him. Ergo, essentially banning [[User:Ze]] as a &quot;preemptive strike&quot;, banning Raven unilaterally, making sure to detech me (twice) and sysoprevoke over minor issues, merely because I dared to undo her obvious abuse of power (banning and sysoprevoke unilaterally). Do I care? At this point nah I'm clearly not wanted, Ze is clearly not wanted, Raven is clearly not wanted... if anyone needs to contact me about the board let me know via one of the options listed on my userpage, I'm going to pull a GC now. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 09:43, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :::If enough of a fuss is made about the two thirds vote thing (I think its ridiculous that everything else is simple majority except this) then I will start a new coop and propose a 6 month ban which I am certain will pass. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:17, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Spud is right that it still just says &quot;common guidelines&quot; and the community standards page still says there are no rules. Saying users who disagree with the outcome of a vote can overrule a majority, especially a not-so-small majority, based on a rule that is not even an actual rule, is not in keeping with a mobocracy.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 18:36, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::::: I don't know myself, man. I'm not really buying that we should just go with simple majority? Why should we? {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 19:21, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Personally, I just don't like the idea of allowing nine users to overrule fourteen. This site is run in a democratic manner. If it were a margin of one or two votes I would be more sympathetic to this argument(that would reflect weaker support) but if we are going past three then it just spits in the face of the majority.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 19:24, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::I fail to see why a two-thirds majority is suddenly necessary for this vote but not for every single other on this site. The only place I can think of that requires two-thirds votes is in the American congress for overturning vetoes and the final stage of a Presidential impeachment and perhaps the parliaments of a few other countries for similar matters. Just about everywhere else passes literally everything with simple majorities including major referendums that involve regions separating into new countries or the UK withdrawing from the E.U. I do not think that banning a toxic user is on par with impeaching the President of the United States. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:49, 28 August 2020 (UTC) Just to be clear, you guys are talking about ignoring a rule that has been in place for a long time and both explicitly applies to the situation and doesn't do what you want. If you don't like it, change it. But it's the rule. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 20:08, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :Just to be clear, you are ignoring what spud said about the start of the community standards saying these are not site rules.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 20:11, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::I believe Ken was banned in the same way and from what I remember there wasn't a two-thirds majority for Unlicensed Thinker either. Wasn't it like 8 to 5? I don't recall several policy votes having a two-thirds majority vote, nobody brought it up then. Perhaps we should revisit those community standards this weekend and change that stupid guideline. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:17, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :::A &quot;rule&quot; that monumentally stupid should indeed be changed, especially because it has not been enforced for so long(so clearly only a minority care about it, otherwise these bans would have been instantly decreed illegitimate and reversed), but I will merely schedule that to &quot;after this matter is settled.&quot;-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 20:22, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::::The two-thirds rule only pertains to permabans. In principle, the same sysops who only get a simple majority vote could call for a rule change on permabans, then if successful, call for a second vote on the permaban based on a simple majority. It would probably be simpler and less fraught, as suggested by Shabidoo, just to call for a subsequent vote on a medium-term block for GR. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 21:06, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :::::Have never heard of this two thirds thing. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:08, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Also, let me point out the amount of votes needed to ban would come out as a unclean fraction. It is honestly just less trouble to ignore this &quot;rule&quot; (which is not even an actual rule, as the community standards clearly state) and just have a majority vote like what we have had in the past for this and like every other function of the site. We can change the standards later. The will of a majority must be respected in a democracy. Before anyone says I am a vengeance obsessed hypocrite note I did not protest Ken being banned by a simple majority even though I voted against it. I lost, fair and square.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 21:17, 28 August 2020 (UTC) {{od}}I'd recommend considering the spirit and likely origins of the supermajority guideline. From what I know, since RW is founded on the idea that we weren't going to be as heavyhanded as Conservapedia (as well as an actual desire to adhere to facts), the supermajority guideline seems to me mostly like a remnant from the era where the main trolls that RW had to deal with were Conservapedia editors looking to stir up shit. As it was eloquently put in Ken's coop; people from that era seem to be regarded as frenemies, which meant that they likely only got banned if they reached a supermajority of &quot;this person is actually fucking dangerous&quot;, which to me seems where the rule comes from. With that out of the way, let's look at precedent/current status of this guideline, if we look at coop cases in recent history that got to this point (skipping GR), it wasn't applied when banning Ken, wasn't applied when banning Unlicensed Thinker, was technically applied (but a unanimous one, there were no opposite votes) when banning AoT, was unanimously applied on Tokyo and A768, was applied (but with very minor splits and almost everyone agreed on a punishment at a basic) on HBC and it wasn't applied on Tyrone8934. The rest are not coop cases which dealt with punitive votes or did not result in punishments being applied. I've left out pre-2019 coop cases. That being said, the conclusion I'm reaching here is that the supermajority rule was never followed in the first place, when votes are cutting it close and that ultimately it boils down to a regular majority on the decision end. This means that the segment should be removed from the CS and I don't think it oughta be applied here either, given we have no real precedent for following that section in the CS, and the CS is ultimately a guideline, not a rulebook (the only real rules are in our blocking policy tbh, the rest is all decided on by the mob when things get taken to the coop afaik). {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:38, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::{{goodpost}} {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 21:45, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :::So, you're talking about changing the community standards just so you can ban someone?-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:59, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Changing it to reflect the will of the majority. If it needs to be changed...the community standards don't claim to be absolute rules. Read them. If we should change them, it would be to make them more democratic. The way I see it, this requirement is kinda like the filibuster-well intentioned but easily abused to force the opinions of a minority on the majority. Again, I did not protest when ken got banned even though I voted against it because I just thought it was a stupid rule even if it benefited something I believe in.[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 22:09, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :::::I'm not keen on trying to do simple majority than supermajority either. But the 2/3 should've been brought up much earlier (and that it has to be reminded also makes me question of such necessity of a rule; to be fair, the eligible users to be over 3 months, I also am not aware existed either). I think the consideration needed to try to consistently apply to more than just a couple of cases (i.e. should we reopen those many other coop cases after this) is going to be more trouble than it's worth. I suggest relooking at this rule and then once the changes or lack of are done, we certainly should have easier access to review the rules rather than have the rules be scattered through several pages. Eligible vote SHOULD be clearly outlined in the default text of the page, and so should the voting process itself (right now, it is linked but I believe it should also be spelled out, a repetition, on this page too; it's easily overlooked). {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 22:19, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::So who volunteers to review all the bans we’ve done over the past 3 or so years? I ain’t doing it. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 01:26, 29 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::Instead of proactively undoing bans we should instead just let people appeal bans on an individual basis. If Ken, for example, wishes to appeal his ban we would hold another vote. This is the best solution if only because very few people will actually appeal their bans. If we DO get a lot of people appealing their bans, we can vote for them in batches. For example, if some troll elects to inform Tisane, Abd, and Mikemikev that their bans are subject to appeal (although I suspect their penalty votes reached the threshold), we can just hold a vote for all of them at once-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 01:33, 29 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::I must admit that I had forgotten about the 2/3 thing. In point of fact the number of permabans we have handed out is pretty small. If we made mistakes in the past that would be grounds for appeal - not grounds for ignoring the standards.[[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|&lt;sup&gt;&quot;Life is short and (insert adjective)&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 08:44, 29 August 2020 (UTC) :It is possible Dysk should not have been the one to formulate the questions being voted on. I think a medium length ban would succeed. Some users have lamented not being given that choice. [[User:Ariel31459|Ariel31459]] ([[User talk:Ariel31459|talk]]) 01:47, 29 August 2020 (UTC) : So I don’t really edit much here but to let you’ll in on a little secret. I was a different user here from late 2013 to early 2015, and involved in my fair share of coops. In that time I’ve noticed RW has had to deal with much different types of challenges — the trolling here is much less “jokey” (for want of a better word), more serious, and the fact that poor moderation in online spaces has now lead to fascist shit has definitely affected that (obvs not that it’s directly relevant to this case). I think it is important to stick by guidelines so that actions are consistent, but I also think it’s important to be open to changing contexts etc. For this reason, I think it would be worth pausing this coop, having a brief (say, 2-5 day) discussion/vote on the community standards and then apply it here. As for previous blocks, I think it would be worth evaluating them on a case-by-case basis — if a block was particularly controversial, then I think reopening the book would be useful, but also that these cases should have a definitive time limit to make sure things don’t get out of control. At the end of the day, every major RW drama is essentially just an evaluation of the current “vibe” of the community, and I think that it’s important to sort out the issues that come along, instead of just saying “we banned XYZ, problem solved”. I haven’t talked enough to any of the participants to come to a direct decision, and I’ve been “out of the game” for so long that I don’t have any opinion on the 2/3 majority issue. What is obvious, though, is that certain issues and confusions in things like the community guidelines, precedent, etc, need to be fixed soon or this drama will spiral out of control. So anyway, &lt;b&gt;TL;DR &lt;/b&gt; — as important as it is to solve this drama quickly, it’s also extremely important to fix the underlying issues, so that RW can enter a period of reasonable stability. Obviously feel free to ignore me — I’m not a heavy hitter and the last drama I remember involved Brxbrx and Nutty so I’m not super on the ball. But thems just my Thoughts. {{User:Penguinsfunnylolhaha/sig}} 10:29, 29 August 2020 (UTC) :{{goodpost}} {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 20:12, 29 August 2020 (UTC) ::How about we have a vote on whether we should keep the 2 thirds rule in relation to voting in the CS, or not, then we proceed accordingly on this vote? The two thirds rule technically applies to any removal of a user from the site, whether temporarily, or permanently. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 08:32, 1 September 2020 (UTC) :::Such a vote is already taking place ([[:RationalWiki talk:Community Standards]]). [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 16:38, 1 September 2020 (UTC) == Not important, feel free to revert but == Maybe it’s just me but this deffo doesn’t have an HCM 2 vibe to me — sure it’s heated, stressful, and lasted a long time, but most of the wiki still functions. Tbh I’d say it’s HCM 3 compared to previous dramas. Anyway. Sorry for the useless addition if it’s unhelpful feel free to collapse or revert. {{User:Penguinsfunnylolhaha/sig}} {{unsigned|Penguinsfunnylolhaha}} 10:31, 29 August 2020 (UTC) ::HCM 3 is pushing it now, honestly, this is pretty dead. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 02:38, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::I think HCM 5 is best. If I'm wrong, feel free to change it back to HCM 6. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:55, 31 August 2020 (UTC) == I have started a discussion to change the two-thirds vote policy == [[RationalWiki_talk:Community_Standards|here]] [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 14:59, 29 August 2020 (UTC) ==Pause coop until community standards is resolved or continue coop with two thirds rule== There is debate about whether the two-thirds rule should be applied considering it is a contentious rule that has been ignored for some time. Shall we pause this coop as has been suggested until the rule is resolved ([[RationalWiki_talk:Community_Standards|here]])) or continue with two-thirds rule? [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:26, 30 August 2020 (UTC) Rule changes don't apply retrospectively, y'all going to have to do the vote all again, if you want to do simple majority voting. In the meantime, there is no real point in closing the existing vote. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 02:37, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :That's according to Article 1 of the US constitution Dysk. Rule changes can be made to apply retroactively unless explicitly forbidden in the Wiki bylaws. Is it?[[User:Ariel31459|Ariel31459]] ([[User talk:Ariel31459|talk]]) 21:39, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::Are you seriously suggesting imposing ex post facto rules based on the premise of mobocratic supremacy? Anyhow, it ain't just in the US constitution, a similar restriction applies in almost every legal system. Oh yeah, and it's a human right (Art. 11:2 UDHR). {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 00:57, 31 August 2020 (UTC) :::I do not support ex post facto application of rules. I runs contrary to the [[rule of law]], which while not codified on RW, is a good thing to adhere to. Assuming the simple-majority permaban rule passes, I would support letting this coop case expire, then if the new rule on simple-majority passes, it could be re-voted if desired. For accounts that have been permabanned in the past based on simple-majority votes, I don't think we should proactively do anything about them. If the banned person is still around to care, they can petition to have their case readjudicated in the coop. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 01:32, 31 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Neither do I. It's just not against the rules. Of course, in a mobocracy, a bunch of idiots can agree to anything. Makes me feel right at home.[[User:Ariel31459|Ariel31459]] ([[User talk:Ariel31459|talk]]) 02:14, 31 August 2020 (UTC) :::::Did you mean that it &quot;is against the rules&quot;? [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 20:48, 31 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::There is no rule against shoving your head up a camels backside. Similarly, there is no rule against breaking the rule of law. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:26, 31 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::Breaking the law is a lot more popular than that other thing, vainglorious as some of our users might be to have done so.[[User:Ariel31459|Ariel31459]] ([[User talk:Ariel31459|talk]]) 02:29, 1 September 2020 (UTC) {{od|:::::::}} No let's carry on with this coop vote, with the two thirds rule for a site ban being required. [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 21:03, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :Today is the last day of voting. As it stands, I will not be banned. {{User:GR/sig}} 22:31, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::Given the ratio is fairly close, I suggest letting the vote run it's full 2 week course, especially given how your recent actions already caused one person to switch their vote. Seems the most fair to me. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 22:39, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::I know you are unfamiliar with the concept of fairness, especially when the subject is the &quot;&lt;code&gt;dishonest little shit&lt;/code&gt;&quot; that I am, but the vote is supposed to run a week. Nothing prevents you from starting a 4th coop to get rid of me. {{User:GR/sig}} 22:44, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::::The vote is supposed to run for 7 to 14 days. I suggest going for 14 here because as a vote change from today indicates, the coop is not as of yet resolved, ergo I recommend 14 days. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 22:46, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Alright, I let the mods decide. Have fun canvassing (or whatever verb you want to insert for &quot;calling reinforcements from ratcord&quot; instead) for 12 more votes to get me banned, I guess. {{User:GR/sig}} 22:50, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Yes. Let this run until 9 September. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 04:36, 3 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Okay, you need 12 votes. Good luck. {{User:GR/sig}} 05:10, 3 September 2020 (UTC) == Majority be damned… or not == Given how things appear to be going… Based on voting, it's unlikely that the two-thirds rule will change, and there is only a simple majority for permaban and for topic ban of GR. I propose a vote on sysoprevoke for GR. A sysoprevoke would have the effect of pushing GR towards more productive/less controversial edit topics, should her return, under threat of short-term blocks. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 02:38, 3 September 2020 (UTC) :If it ends the disruptive behavior than I am okay with it.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 02:54, 3 September 2020 (UTC) ::Even if I didn't abuse sysop tools? What is this? I also don't plan to edit this wiki anymore since I have my own now. I only want sysop so I can see my deleted pages. It saves me the hassle of asking someone else to do it. Not to mention that this repeated cooping of me is tiresome and disruptive in itself. {{User:GR/sig}} 03:09, 3 September 2020 (UTC) Raven I will gladly delete all of those pages for you. Just put a whole list of them and I'll take care of all of it myself. You don't need sysop revoke. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 16:04, 3 September 2020 (UTC) :I will start a new coop in a couple weeks with the sysop revoke as one of the options. The other options will depend on the results of the CS vote. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 16:04, 3 September 2020 (UTC) ::It's not to delete. It's to copy the content of it for my own wiki. I don't need your favor, thanks. Have fun making another coop targeting me, though. Please cite CS violations when you do. {{User:GR/sig}} 16:05, 3 September 2020 (UTC) :::Let me cite one to you from the &quot;Conduct&quot; part: &quot;''If you are engaged in an ongoing argument with another user about something, please keep the dispute within the relevant talk pages. Don't turn every possible page you or they appear on into another front of the battle.''&quot; Your recent attempts to turn the issue about Dysk vaporizing bunch of coop into a part of your flame war against LGM is a clear violation of this. I changed my vote on banning you because we should try to be more inclusive here and I believe in second (and third and fourth and googolplexth) chances. Most of the time anyway. But I would very much vote in favour of giving you a long block (6-12 months). Because you need to grow the fuck up before you're allowed a possibility of redemption here. At the very least you should get the Oxy treatment of being turned essentially into a wiki pariah who won't get their mop back until they prostrate themselves for months for their crimes against common decency.[[User:Coigreach|Coigreach]] ([[User talk:Coigreach|talk]]) 16:47, 3 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Except I did this on the mod page, where it belongs. So you're wrong. {{User:GR/sig}} 17:04, 3 September 2020 (UTC) :::::You did it in a section of that page that clearly wasn't about LGM. So now you're just being a nitpicker. Or a commafucker as we Finns like to say. In any case, you're intentionally picking fights and should just fuck off until you've had couple of months to cool down. You've got your own wiki now. Stick to it if you please. [[User:Coigreach|Coigreach]] ([[User talk:Coigreach|talk]]) 17:18, 3 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Lol. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 17:26, 3 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::The dispute was on the relevant talk page. Try again. {{User:GR/sig}} 17:28, 3 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::#Block GR for 10 years. Was this vote on the relevant portion of the talk page GR? [[User:Coigreach|Coigreach]] ([[User talk:Coigreach|talk]]) 17:32, 3 September 2020 (UTC) {{verygood}} {{User:GR/sig}} 17:37, 3 September 2020 (UTC) :Back to your old antics of hiding behind templates when you can't find the words to defend your behavior I see. Top job sir, carry on. [[User:Coigreach|Coigreach]] ([[User talk:Coigreach|talk]]) 17:44, 3 September 2020 (UTC) ::GR I certainly hope the next coop is successful...thank you. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:26, 3 September 2020 (UTC) :::I am fairly certain that your constant use of that template as a toxic passive aggressive response to users when you don't have any reasonable reply in defense of your position...is a notable motivation for people voting to ban you. In any case...I don't care what the particular task is you need to be done, tell me (or list them on a page in your sandbox) and I (or other users) will help get it done. Any of this is preferable to giving you back your tools. I would be happy to do any of it so that we can finish all of this before your departure (which you have announced twice now despite posting on the Saloon and other pages as well as voting at least twice).[[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:26, 3 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Your constant cooping is also toxic. Yet, here you are. {{User:GR/sig}} 18:34, 3 September 2020 (UTC)i :::::You were on this website for just a few weeks by the time you started two coops which, is pretty bloody insane when you think about it (p.s. I've never started a coop myself yet...you're the first user who ever made life so unpleasant enough I have been motivated enough to do it). In any case...you said twice now in the last few days that you're leaving, so unless you just said that for some other end (which I'm sure you didn't) none of this really matters cause you'll be gone once you've sorted everything out...right? So let's get that taken care of shall we? [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:35, 3 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::I'll leave if I want. {{User:GR/sig}} 19:36, 3 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::So you aren't actually leaving like you said you would? [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:17, 3 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::It's quite unlikely that GR will leave on his own accord because he previously LANCBed to avoid punishment from a coop case, and because his still editing various pages right now. It's part of the problem: if someone LANCBs and then decides to come back, it's not a problem. However, if someone LANCBs to avoid punishment then comes back and causes unnecessary conflict, it's much more poblematic. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 20:22, 3 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::We already decided to resolve coop cases even if somebody LANCBs, if I recall-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 20:43, 3 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::I guess socdem wiki isn’t panning out lol. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:10, 3 September 2020 (UTC) :@Bongolian: The topic ban vote appears to be passing by a majority so far. According to the stated rules, a simple majority is required for all penalties except the permanant ban. It may be a pain to enforce, but as of now, it is passing.[[User:Ariel31459|Ariel31459]] ([[User talk:Ariel31459|talk]]) 22:39, 3 September 2020 (UTC) == Maybe it's time == To close this coop and be done with it. Not much else will happen and the rule of law has been upheld. {{User:GR/sig}} 19:29, 4 September 2020 (UTC) :Let's leave it up until September 9 so that none may contest the results-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 19:39, 4 September 2020 (UTC) :How about you actually honor your word the next time you pull a LANCB to weasel your way out of a corner. The &quot;rule of law&quot; is the one you deliberately sought to cheat, shame on you. LGM's resigned as mod and people have genuinely left because of you, and you expect us to be okay with that? &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 19:50, 4 September 2020 (UTC) ::Again, Oxyaena, it takes a staggering lack of self-awareness for you to be calling anybody else out on LANCBing and yet returning-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 19:52, 4 September 2020 (UTC) :::Perhaps you can explain your double standard in favor of Raven and against me for once. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 19:53, 4 September 2020 (UTC) ::::What double standard? Haven't I explained this to you already? Please provide an instance of a double standard and I'll explain it again.{{unsigned|Hastur}} :::::I would be highly interested to understand what forgiving everything Raven including has ever done (including derailing discussions and his ugly rampage) and yet (sometimes rightfully sometimes not) criticising everything Oxy has done...ahem...is not a double standard. I must have missed that explanation somewhere but please repeat it or give us a link. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:02, 4 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::Just so we're clear, I've never voted to permaban Oxyaena. I have, however, consistently been in favor of keeping her in sysoprevoke and stripped of tech rights; this has been on the grounds that she misuses her sysop rights, is not qualified to have tech rights, and has not demonstrated the maturity necessary to be given those rights back. Raven, on the other hand, I oppose putting in sysoprevoke on the grounds that he has not misused his sysop rights- the only valid reason for which we put people in sysoprevoke. As you can see I have been very even in the application of my judgement. Moreover, the assertion that I am never critical of Godless Raven is false. When he does something wrong I certainly call him out on it, sometimes publicly, other times through direct messaging on Discord. He has his flaws, as do we all. We're only human.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 20:16, 4 September 2020 (UTC) If Oxy doesn't have the maturity to have Sysop tools then Raven doesn't and it's ridiculous to claim otherwise. That Raven hasn't misused his Sysop tools is also ridiculous (might we forget the stupid blocks for one example). [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:28, 4 September 2020 (UTC) :::Placing someone in sysoprevoke and removing them from sysoprevoke are very different things. We only take rights away when they are abused (before you bring up Dysk, I voted to restore his rights on the grounds that it was a one-time offense against a longstanding tenure of good service), and we give them back at discretion. Since Raven never committed an action warranting that his sysop rights be removed, I have advocated against their removal.-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 20:41, 4 September 2020 (UTC) :Honestly, I've criticized Oxy quite harshly on many occasions, and for the most part she's taken it maturely. Even when I've been unfair to her, which I admit has happened. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 20:30, 4 September 2020 (UTC) ::I'll still advocate for letting the coop run to it's maximum conclusion, given how close the tie is right now. Even if there won't be a 2/3rd majority. Also, if I ''wanted'' to be petty, I could point out that since Raven LANCBed, he technically broke the one guideline that he wasn't allowed to do during this case, which is LANCB (given he pulled another password scramble). I can't be arsed to raise this as a proper point though or argue about it, and I don't feel entirely confident doing that, so someone else can do that if they want to. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 20:36, 4 September 2020 (UTC) :::Yeah, let it run to the end. At least then no-one gets to rules lawyer about it afterwards. [[User:Coigreach|Coigreach]] ([[User talk:Coigreach|talk]]) 20:40, 4 September 2020 (UTC) ::::The guideline that LGM imposed out of nowhere that is null and void and not based on the CS and also voted against by a majority in a recent voting decision? Yeah, fuck that. Don't care. I'll &quot;break it&quot; (edit: didn't break anything since it's some random guideline without validity) again if I have to. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:01, 4 September 2020 (UTC) :::::It's not a big deal. We'll let the vote run its course, and there won't be any doubts as to its legitimacy-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:09, 4 September 2020 (UTC) {{modhat}} This is going to come to an end at 18:00 UTC on Wednesday 9 September 2020 and not a second sooner. I really don't think there's any chance that 2/3 of voters will say that want Raven banned. It's even quite likely that a simple majority will say they want him to stay. But it's also looking pretty certain that a topic ban will be imposed. I very much doubt that Raven would survive a fourth Coop case. But for everyone's sake, including his, I hope that never happens. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 01:50, 5 September 2020 (UTC) :Raven is right. There is no rule of law at this wiki. :There is a lot of unnecessary drama though. Because there is no rule of law.[[User:Rintintin|Rintintin]] ([[User talk:Rintintin|talk]]) 16:01, 5 September 2020 (UTC) ::There is a lot of unnecessary drama because there are a lot of people who enjoy filling up content in the Coop but never edit mainspace. I checked out the bytes size contents of recent pages and it goes around from 400B to 40B. The coop? This recent one is around 175kB. This is why this wiki is decaying {{ping|Rintintin}}. And people like Shabidoo and Spud want ANOTHER coop to get rid of me since this one didn't cause their desired outcome (I think it was Nutty who called this &quot;double jeopardy&quot;). {{User:GR/sig}} 16:08, 5 September 2020 (UTC) :::This wiki is going to lose a lot of editors to Wikipedia if the unnecessary drama continues. Or maybe a rival wiki will be created by disgrunted editors.[[User:Rintintin|Rintintin]] ([[User talk:Rintintin|talk]]) 16:18, 5 September 2020 (UTC) ::::It ain't an &quot;if.&quot; A fork wiki was recently created, a few contributors did fuck off back to Wikipedia. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 16:30, 5 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&diff=2222717</id> <title>RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&diff=2222717"/> <updated>2020-09-05T15:57:14Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* So Dysk got all his rights back */ <hr /> <div>{{mod talk header}} &lt;center&gt;[[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive_List|Archives for this page]]&lt;/center&gt; {{#tag:inputbox| bgcolor=transparent type=fulltext prefix=RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation break=yes width={{{width|60}}} searchbuttonlabel={{{label|Search the archives}}} }} [[File:Moderator.jpg|thumb]] __TOC__ &lt;!-- write below this line --&gt; == Dysk just nuked the Coop == LGM took away his tech rights and put him in sysoprevoke. As per procedure, we now must discuss it and decide if we want to keep it, and since the coop both was occupied and is right now out of commission, here goes. I don't really think he oughta get them back, this is probably the straightest abuse of rights as you can get. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 20:57, 27 August 2020 (UTC) {{collapse|GR trying to make this about him and LGM; also Raven asked to be banned}} :Will you coop LGM for abusing her mod rights? Or nah? {{User:GR/sig}} 21:01, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::...what mod right abuse? {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:03, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::When she unilaterally indef banned and sysoprevoked me without a cause. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Stop trying to change the subject! This is about Dysk. Why is it so hard for you to come up with a defense that does not involve using someone else as a distraction from your own conduct! Are you incapable of defending yourself?-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 21:08, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::{{ec}} Defending myself? I didn't do any of this. I am talking about the one time LGM unilaterally sysoprevoked me and indef banned without a proper cause.[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&amp;type=block&amp;user=&amp;page=GR&amp;year=&amp;month=-1&amp;tagfilter=&amp;hide_tag_log=1] {{User:GR/sig}} 21:10, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Good. Now explain why that is relevant to this case. &quot;This other person did something&quot; is not a valid defense in this scenario.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 21:12, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::Well she has a habit of misbehaving. So I don't think it's okay for her to point fingers at anyone when she is dripping mud from head to feet. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:13, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::{{ping|GR}} Jesus christ man, he fucking NUKED THE COOP. Sorry if I don't give 2 flying shits about your cheap whataboutism on LGM. You got sysoprevoked for trying to restore Dysk's sysop rights after he got sysoprevoked, go cry a river. Also, I forgot to provide logs since I didn't want the procedural shit to get bogged by &quot;waah LGM removed my rights without process&quot;. CS has shit on this, I've said it plenty. Either way, here is [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&amp;type=suppress&amp;user=&amp;page=RationalWiki%3AChicken+coop&amp;year=&amp;month=-1&amp;tagfilter=&amp;hide_patrol_log=1&amp;hide_tag_log=1 the Suppression Log]. He literally can't claim that he didn't do it, the logs prove it. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:09, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::I also don't really care about your tantrum, I am talking about mod abuse. Malicious actions that are serious. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:11, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Cut the whataboutism crap. Unless you have something relevant to say about Dysk's actions, may I recommend you just shut up. This isn't about you, so stop putting your ego in the door. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:13, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::Indeed it isn't about me, it's about LGM's repeated offences against CS. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:14, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::No it isn't, this is about Dysk. Now unless you have something actually useful to add, I'm gonna recommend someone protect this page to be sysop only because you're trying to distract and make this about you. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:16, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Well yeah, gotta suppress those who want transparency. Gotcha. Gotta defend bad actors when you're one. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:17, 27 August 2020 (UTC) {{collapse end}} : For the record, I’m fully in favour of Sysoprevoking Dysk after that stunt (about 20,000 edits got suppressed). For the sake of transparency in the aftermath I removed the rights from a [[User:Judge Dredd|bot]] he set up just today (no idea what it was for) and in my opinion that should remain the same. I also removed the tech rights from [[User:Ze]], given that she’s Dysk’s sister and involved in the recent drama (though seemingly not involved in Dyskgate). I’ll leave it up to the others to decide if she gets tech back. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 21:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::I'd suggest keeping a close eye on Ze, although I hope she wasn't involved and this is just Dysk going rogue on his own. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:09, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::Hopefully it was an error or misunderstanding. I'm curious to see what the explanation was.[[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:16, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::It probably was a fatfinger. No idea. Maybe. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:18, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::Are we ever going to talk about the mod abuses of LGM, though? {{User:GR/sig}} 21:18, 27 August 2020 (UTC) (edit conflict)So, I would wait for Dysk to provide an explanation just because this might be a monumental technical fuck-up...but it had better be a pretty damn good explanation. Also, will everyone please ignore GR and his sad attempts to derail the conversation?-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 21:20, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::I have mostly stayed out of the GR business... except for now. Dude, fuck off - this isn't about you. Stay on topic or fuck right off. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 21:21, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::I didn't do anything though, Ace? {{User:GR/sig}} 21:24, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Yes you did - you turned a section about someone else's behaviour into a grievance of you own. Don't do that. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:29, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::It isn't about me. It's about LGM. She has a pattern of abusing her power. People here only look at the reactions of the attacked faction (like Dysk) but never care about what caused the reaction (like LGM consistently applying dishonest and hostile tactics). {{User:GR/sig}} 22:32, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::For fucks sake you fucking daft dick. This was a section about Dysk and only Dsyk until you rode in and shooting your face off about some spat your having with LGM. This is fucking simple - take your bullshit elsewhere. This section is about Dysk you numb nuts. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 23:16, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :Since I just had to fold the bit with evidence, here is [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&amp;type=suppress&amp;user=&amp;page=RationalWiki%3AChicken+coop&amp;year=&amp;month=-1&amp;tagfilter=&amp;hide_patrol_log=1&amp;hide_tag_log=1 the Suppression Log] again. It has evidence for his actions. Also, I just collapsed GRs comments. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:23, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::Remove D’s tech rights. You don’t get to pull that shit. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:24, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::He's a staff member. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:25, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Doesn’t mean shit. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:26, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::{{ping|DuceMoosolini}} LGM did. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:27, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::Fucking good. D has displayed serious impulse control issues and obviously cannot be trusted. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:28, 27 August 2020 (UTC) {{od}} That page was annoying me intensely. In a moment of anger I clicked a button to make it disappear. My bad. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:57, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :Well, regarding issues with impulse control, remember when someone told people in saloon bar &quot;fucking ass shits, get covid and die&quot;? That person has yet to be punished. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:59, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::@GR- fucking dead horses is alright with you, we know. Beating them too, apparently? @Dysk, I forgive you for your easily rectified outburst. We're only human--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 22:46, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::necrozoophilia, huh. {{User:GR/sig}} 22:54, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::(edit conflict) I will assume Dysk made an honest mistake, but the deletion itself is a deliberate choice done in bad judgement, and the suppression so it didn't show in the logs was also a big, fatal mistake that happened that required a moderator to step in and fix. Regardless, the tech role is a big responsibility and Dysk has failed to honor this through impulse, so while mistakes can be forgiven, Dysk should not have the tech responsibility, not for a very long time, if ever again. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 22:57, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::I don't see how this has very much gravity as a standalone incident. If you can demonstrate that Dysk has a history of pulling such stunts I am willing to listen but otherwise this is a harmless, easily undone fluke-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 23:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::That self-awareness right now... {{User:GR/sig}} 22:59, 27 August 2020 (UTC) {{od}} I presume that putting vaguely related users, who did nothing, in sysoprevoke isn't a mistake... oh wait, I can't talk about that... of course I agree with the basic principle, that deleting a page is a unforgivable action of grave importance, as the 5 seconds it takes to press the restore button is a tragic loss of administrative time, truly worthy of permanent censure. Carry on. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 23:16, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :I'm asking, why do we give out tech rights? Why do we restrict page suppresion, why is Dysk allowed to delete a page with 2,000+ revisions and the normal sysop can't? Why do we not grant block rights to people who can't be trusted to have block rights, as blocks are easily undone? Page suppression is not to be used really lightly, and it takes a moderator to undo the suppression and also try to view the suppression logs. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 23:25, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::Why are you asking? I assume as a mod you would know what the answers are. In any case. Tech rights are given to people who want to use the edit filter, sitenotice, et al. We do routinely give block rights to people who can't be trusted with it, but, imagining for a moment we didn't do that, it would be to avoid users being unnecessarily expelled from the wiki. The bigdelete restriction on deletion is due to the possibility of very large deletions (eg: the saloon bar) taking out the database accidentally by overloading it. This would be a Bad Thing™. Page suppression is eh, tech/mod level delete, functionality is identical. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 00:06, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :::I'm not asking for an explanation of what the tools do and whatnot, I am asking, why do people ask for tech rights, why do we grant or reject their requests? And I will argue, that all blocks are easily undone too. Why do you think some people don't deserve block rights if blocks can just be undone? And yes, there's a restriction on bigdelete because it has serious consequences if abused, on top of the revdel abuse. What's stopping you from attempting to bigdelete Saloon Bar? I do not trust you from refraining from your impulses. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 00:27, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::::This was a one-time fuckup and he admitted wrong-doing. He is a good faith user and ought to be treated as such.--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 00:39, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :::::They also reverted LGM's sysoprevoke of GR, done, I presume, to enforce a temporary block. Techs should not countermand moderators, that's what the coop is for.[[User:Ariel31459|Ariel31459]] ([[User talk:Ariel31459|talk]]) 00:51, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Infinite block Ariel, and without following due process. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 00:54, 28 August 2020 (UTC) {{od}} Eh LGM, I would grant certain sysop rights to everyone including BoNs if I could... I think everyone should have block rights equally, the very principle of dividing sysops, mods, techs, and editors is distasteful to me. I could argue that this is a form of fascism, directly responsible for many HCM events, and so forth... the wiki would be fairer if there were no techs, no mods, no sysops, and editors gained rights automatically over time. Bans could be enacted via a voting extension, the details are not unworkable, of course it's not the situation here on this wiki right now. Putting my ideologically guided thoughts to one side, what are you saying here? I told you I agreed with your decision already, I don't doubt for a moment that I would have done the same. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 00:54, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :That wasn't clear that you agreed with my decision. I am asking to explain your reasoning on why some rights are restricted, even if they seem like they can be easily undone, including page suppression from sysops. I'm sorry if I didn't come clearly. By the way, I don't think your idea of RationalWiki will work; I think we need some form of power difference to prevent abuse. I believe RationalWiki started as this but established moderators/crats as soon as issues cropped up. I do not see anything closely resembling fascism; I see a bunch of people with nearly equal rights as another fighting over what and what shouldn't be done. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 01:02, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::I wrote the following: :::&quot;&quot; ''of course I agree with the basic principle, that deleting a page is a unforgivable action of grave importance, as the 5 seconds it takes to press the restore button is a tragic loss of administrative time, truly worthy of permanent censure. Carry on.'' &quot;&quot; ::Mayhaps this came over as sarcasm? The rest of my commentary here is my attempt at explaining I don't think userrights should be restricted as they are, that power imbalance is unnecessary hirachary (fascism), that you seem to have overreated to a momentary fuck-up in terms of your related actions, and of course a certain amount of confusion as a result. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 01:32, 28 August 2020 (UTC) {{trollcollapse}} You know how you ranted about editor retention issues? What the fuck have you done in mainspace of late? And you had rights to nuke the coup and stir up plenty of drama prior to that. Yeah, my opinion on your bullshit right now is pretty low. If you aren't contributing to the Wiki and are an actual net negative at this point, shut the fuck up. [[Special:Contributions/72.184.174.199|72.184.174.199]] ([[User talk:72.184.174.199|talk]]) 13:18, 28 August 2020 (UTC) {{collapseend}} :I ranted about editor retention because I quit the site in 2019 over an unrelated issue. Yeah I never returned from that LANCB, I ain't here now insofar as I have no intention of contributing. My presence as it is, is merely assisting the wiki in surviving via my maintaince of the edit filter for a year or however long, polishing a few bells and whistles, and seeing if I can get a few asshats to see reason once in a while. Oh yeah I'm on the board cause the fucking software needs updating. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 02:27, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :Dysk, I don't think that expressing your tangential desire to grant Sysop to all-comers exactly helps your case. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 01:53, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::Of course, you are a liberal. Indeed you never agreed with me on the nature of that permission. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 02:19, 30 August 2020 (UTC) == Mod abuses == I wanted to ask if there will be any time in which the mod abuses of LGM will be discussed? She unilaterally indef blocked me and sysoprevoked me previously without proper cause nor notifying ATIM. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&amp;type=block&amp;user=&amp;page=GR&amp;year=&amp;month=-1&amp;tagfilter=&amp;hide_tag_log=1] {{User:GR/sig}} 21:22, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :Mod elections. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:25, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::Alright. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:26, 27 August 2020 (UTC) So...when will all the previous 13 threads be archived, may I ask? This page is getting rather long.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 18:51, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :Feel free. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 02:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC) == Useless edit by sysop adds slur == Can we not do [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Vaush&amp;type=revision&amp;diff=2219164&amp;oldid=2219163 this]? --[[User:Aurelia|Aurelia]] ([[User talk:Aurelia|talk]]) 09:04, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :If you read the paragraph, you'll see that it's not a slur because the accusations really were dumb. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 10:46, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::It's still a superfluous edit using a word that some people consider a slur. If you wanna haha own me in here by saying slurs aren't slurs when they're accurate, or that I'm an oversensitive wokescold, maybe RationalWiki is not the place I thought it was and I'll happily go away and you'll never hear from me again. Otherwise: The paragraph provides enough information that an outright value judgement in the title is really just making the article worse. --[[User:Aurelia|Aurelia]] ([[User talk:Aurelia|talk]]) 13:21, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :::I've undone it. Seems unnecessary to me, but why the need for moderator action? [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 13:52, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::::I'm somewhat bit unfamiliar with how RationalWiki works. It seems Sysop is given out more lightly than other wikis, and does not even closely confer the authority usually associated with the role. My apologies. --[[User:Aurelia|Aurelia]] ([[User talk:Aurelia|talk]]) 14:03, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :I'd say that while the status of the word dumb as a slur is... contentious IMHO (this goes in the territory of &quot;are most of the words we use to describe really bad notions/ideas slurs&quot;, in which case, yes, but I'd argue that &quot;dumb&quot; is so far removed from that context that it's not really a slur anymore), the edit is rather useless. It adds an opinion that the content of the article does not reflect in and of itself (rather it explains the incident), so it probably shouldn't be in there. Also, feel free to dispute any section. Normally we use the article's talkpage to do that, not ATIM though. ATIM is more for larger problems between users (so that mods can come in and try to mediate) or dealing with rights abuses. Anyway, it seems like Kiko removed the section, so it's no longer a problem. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 14:24, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::Even if one accepts the idea that it's a slur, it's not directed at either a sysop or a group of people (gender, sexual orientation, nationality, ethnicity, etc.) It's equivalent to 'dumb idea'. If we can't say that, we're fucked. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 16:42, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :::Lol, imagine thinking dumb is a &quot;slur&quot;. Please. People need to get the fuck over themselves. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 16:44, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Semantics is not a hot topic around here. If by &quot;dumb&quot; one means, &quot;this says little or nothing,&quot; then it is a fairly consistent usage with the adjective, &quot;dumb.&quot; The verb &quot;to dumb-down,&quot; essentially means to say less, usually for people who don't want to or can't understand more. Dumb as a synonym for stupid, is a mostly harmless though questionable usage. [[Special:Contributions/71.174.3.97|71.174.3.97]] ([[User talk:71.174.3.97|talk]]) 18:06, 28 August 2020 (UTC) == Sysoprevoke == I'm in it, I demand to be let out of it. There was no vote, it would be highly irregular given the circumstances to maintain a sanction of this nature beyond the short term, it's disproportionate and unrelated to my recent heat-of-the-moment deletion of your second favourite page. In short, it should not stand. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 02:17, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :I agree - if he didn’t abuse his sysop rights then he shouldn’t had them taken away on someone’s whim. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 02:20, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::Wait until the Coop case is over and in the meantime make constructive edits and try to be nice about asking stuff back. I do not trust you anything beyond autopatrol. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 02:23, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::Cool, I don't trust you with mod. That whole trust thing, it is how it is, not greatly important to the situation. As for being nice, this is me being nice... {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 02:32, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::At the risk of stepping into a fight… Since LGM and D are going to be working together on the Board, perhaps it would be a good idea for you two to at least come to some sort of détente? [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 03:09, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::::I appreciate the attempt at diplomacy but I believe Dysk assumes bad faith from me and cannot take suggestions for improvement without firing passive-aggressive at me some more, and I find this nearly impossible to work with. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 03:14, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::LGM I strongly disagree with many of your recent decisions as a mod, the last time it was Kazitor, this time it's Raven. I'm not offering you any suggestions for improvement, it's a difference of opinion, a subjective matter of judgment. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 03:50, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::I have acknowledged Kazitor's claims of not disagreeing with my behavior but [[Essay talk:RationalWiki has an image problem|Kazitor was referring to my actions toward a bigoted anti-LGBT member]]. Whatever conclusion Kazitor has formed about my behavior is highly undermined that the interaction involved someone that was viciously attacking a sexual identity I happen to have ([https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Scott_Hayward as well as more vile behavior toward gay and trans people]). I rather people stop citing Kazitor as a legitimate criticism on my behavior considering the subject matter Kazitor believes is &quot;up for debate&quot; is some of the most vile, personal, and unpleasant things I had to endure, and I also do not believe Raven's criticisms have any merit. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 04:10, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Yeah the way you think about Raven is the way I think about you. This is a two-way street. As for Kazitor... you drove him off the wiki. Funny how you do that. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 04:19, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::I do not believe how I acted is anywhere near comparable to Raven's behavior. I do not think I have to even begin to try to draw the comparisons. As for Kazitor, as I stated, Kazitor was really selective in what examples they did pick to illustrate the narrative of hostile moderators ([[Essay:RationalWiki has an image problem|the essay itself is short is and is devoid of examples beyond that one incident]]). Kazitor was upset at me being upset at [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Asexuality&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1986539 this comment], [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Asexuality&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1986538 this comment] [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Asexuality&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1986531 this comment] [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Asexuality&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1986533 that] had me react with hostility to. If Kazitor believes these comments are in any way acceptable for the sake of [[RationalWiki:Constructive dialogue]] I do not believe Kazitor's complaints are valid, and I am not troubled by Kazitor leaving over this. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 04:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::Yeah you don't care about the thoughts of others, and willfully disregard the principle of free speech. I get it. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 05:01, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::That's not true. Kazitor could've used any other example, but Kazitor, limited by very short length of the essay, was being selective about those examples. It's a short essay. Kazitor could've picked other examples, but the one example Kazitor chose involved a bigot that rubbed on my wounds from being asexual, and that bigot would've violated community standards by making homophobic remarks. It's far from the best example. I tried to take Kazitor seriously at the time, rethinking about the wiki approach to people (I might have even brought up civility standards and I think I've thought about it a few times), and I even remember at the time being disappointed Kazitor left and leaving a message saying I'll miss them. Again, Kazitor's conclusion had a point, but Kazitor's example is bad and undermined that point. In other words, wasn't helpful to me and I was left wondering what else was Kazitor was thinking about and being disappointed that I couldn't get more examples. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 05:14, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :I agree. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 02:29, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :D should not have sysop. This wasn’t a little mistake, he misused tools to suppress an entire page of debate. He’d do it again too, by harassing people with repeated blocks or deleting the same page over and over again or using some other means of undermining this site and it’s users. He has shown himself to be a hostile element, no better than a troll. His petulant “demand” and antagonism towards someone he theoretically should be pledged to work with also shows this. D has no respect for the wiki or its users, and he means us harm. No sysop. It’s not like he even needs it for anything. It wouldn’t be worth the constant supervision he’d need.{{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 03:17, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::I did have some trepidation in agreeing to unrevoke D, mainly because he was unwilling to explain his actions. By détente, I was thinking of some circumscription around D's editing activities, and mutually agreed upon civility. Maybe I was too quick to agree if this bare minimum can't be agreed upon? [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 03:24, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::I suggested D to wait until the coop is over and in the meantime do some constructive edits to show how sysop tools will help them. I got met with hostility, though. Are my suggestions inappropriate? I can explain why I do not trust Dysk with sysop tools, namely because they have misused deletion and page visibility privileges on a large, public page on a whim and cannot be trusted to handle any pages while having access to the delete button. This is on top of block privileges they have used repeatedly on Crow despite being outlined in the Community Standards that advises against disruptive repeated blocking. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 03:27, 30 August 2020 (UTC) The amount of bad faith here is hilarious. You are clearly using your own ideas of future events, as the base for your opinions. I admit, it was a clear example of tech abuse to delete your second favourite page, I freely admit that was my bad. The idea I mean the wiki harm is... interesting, yet false. I've never said anything to anyone which could give that impression. You made it up yourself. In the meantime I am asking for you to remove sysoprevoke, largely because it's a barrier for the upcoming mod elections... which you would no doubt prefer I didn't run for. That is why I must be pushy on this, apologies if it interferes with your master-plan or some shite. As for constructive edits? Gee, I created most of the current edit filters, and was the only one maintaining them for a fair chunk of time. I got onto the RationalMedia Foundation board, admittedly for the sole purpose of getting slacking sysadmins to install software. I created a few pages here and there as I recall. In any case, I'm not asking for sysop, I'm asking you to remove sysoprevoke. Not for any need to have tools, merely because there are associated restrictions. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 03:43, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :I'm not sure why you believe that it's ridiculous that inferring from your prior judgement you cannot be trusted to change that judgement later on. Admitting your mistakes is only a part of the effort to get people's trust back; actually owning up to the consequences and not demanding favors from others is another. I do not see how your insistence on referring to the chicken coop as &quot;your second-favorite page&quot; is endearing or helping you get your tools back. As for sysoprevoke being a barrier to the upcoming mod elections, the elections will not happen a few months from now; you were lucky you didn't attempt to pull off massive page deletion during November. If you cannot provide a compelling case for enough people to get you out of sysoprevoke (see my suggestions: edit the wiki, wait until the Chicken Coop comes over, exercise basic respect for others) then that's on you and you will have to accept not being able to attend the mod elections. It is not about &quot;interfering with the master-plan or some shit&quot; (ignoring the more unnecessary passive-aggressive jabs at me). As for the edit filters, while you have created them you're the one that decided to abuse your tech powers and lose them. If they need maintenance and you cannot access them because of your prior bad judgement, it's ''you'' that left people not trusting of your capabilities. :In fact your recent attempt to delete the Coop as well as the constant hostility and passive-aggressive remarks (&quot;Gee,&quot; &quot;slacking sysadmins&quot;, &quot;apologies if it interferes with your master-plan or some shite&quot;, &quot;the amount of bad faith here is hilarious&quot;, &quot;you are clearly[...]; this is only for this thread) after the fact makes you even less trustworthy to handle anything mod elections. I still am not convinced you should get your tools back. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 04:00, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::No offence, it's not your right to decide that. If you want to prohibit me standing in the mod elections, you are going to have to make a vote here to put me in sysoprevoke. Because right now, at this time, there is no community action confirming it. As for your master-plan as I put it... tell GC and your friends on Discord I said hi, cause I read the whole channel and woop, that was some hell of a read. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 04:10, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::No but it'll help if you try convincing me to take you out of sysoprevoke. I do not &quot;want&quot; to prohibit you from participating mod elections. I want to make sure you establish trust again. I have made suggestions already on how you can win my trust back, which can make a difference in you getting your rights or not. We don't know yet if I'm adequately representative of what moderators think should happen to you, but you need to assume I am to make a better case for you. So far, I am not compelled by your case of you not editing the wiki because you're more interested in your plans to install software or update the filters. You can build trust if you edit the wiki and work from there. Yes, discussions about you have taken place in Discord. It's clear and no secret I don't take a liking to your behavior. I don't believe you talk about me with much enthusiasm in the Discord circles you frequent. I'm sure you engage in similar discussions but I'm not interested in them. I'm more visibly frustrated and angry in Discord than on RationalWiki, that is true. I don't see how this is indicative of a hidden master plan though; I want to make it clear I do not have an established means of doing whatever to you regardless what you do. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 04:19, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::I have no intention of editing the wiki, not because I'm doing other things, although I am. But, because the wiki is beyond my capacity to fix, as little more than a giant fucking trash-heap of biased and outdated pages few ever read. ::::If you dislike my behaviour, you might do well to understand why I'm acting this way... you know, I've been extremely angry at multiple points, for the effect this has had on others (not Raven) I care about, this anger is not easily resolved, when a bunch of cunts (not you) are running around, making it worse. ::::You held serious discussions on Discord, on the subject of removing me from the board, because that's clearly relevant to deleting the coop. I guess? I'll make you a deal on that, I'll resign, when my to-do list of software updates has been completed. After all, that was the only reason I got on the board. Is it hyperbolic to describe this form of plotting as a master-plan? Maybe, maybe not. I certainly consider it relevant. ::::As for timing, my point is that I want this resolved now. I won't be doing anything between now and November. I need resolution on this matter before moving forward. I'm aware that I lost some userrights due to my own inappropriate action, but I have no intention of publicly explaining the exact goings on in my mind, as private matters are the primary concern in there. This leads me to post as I have, based on procedure, rules, proportionate actions and the like. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 04:44, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::::If you are ever going to be removed from board, you're going to have to be notified either way. At the time I am nervous interacting with you and I figure you'll be nervous and/or having reservations about interacting with me. But again, I have reservations about your overall ability to judge. I have lingering thoughts that you'll be able to put wiki matters behind and try to cooperate with board meetings. I imagine if I hear you I'll try to be pleasant and civil to my ability. I can't imagine trying to give off passive aggressive remarks. :::::I'm not sure how else you can demonstrate trust with me then. I'm trying to think of ways you can show trust or at least try to make an effort about moving on from the incident. Editing the wiki and engaging/responding in content disputes is a simple way of showing activity and participation. If you can propose me something else you can do to help me trust you, I'll listen. I'll try to bite back possible reservations. :::::I believe your anger is valid. I can imagine the frustration of having users talk some harsh, if not outright nasty stuff about you and then having your rights taken off immediately for a mistake you believe to not be serious. It's draining, and it affects your mood in the day. Perhaps this only confirms your suspicions that the wiki is a big circle jerk and laughs at people rather than being constructive and being a collaborative topic. I've seen how Raven was treated right when he joined. I tried to come to his defense when Oxyaeana came in and attacked for not really justifiable reasons. Some users admitted they really don't like Raven and distrust him, which might added to some dripping hostility that Raven responded with. I felt sympathetic for Raven when he met so much resistance at the beginning. I tried to extend a wing for him and tried to help him navigate through content disputes. The frustration is really there, being seemingly unable to contribute anything while people keep undoing your edits. :::::Hmmm, well, if you can't explain what's exactly going on in your mind, you'll have to risk having others like me make incorrect assumptions about you. I notice you asked me to understand you but it will help if you did explain your emotions and thought-processes. Anyhow I figure your plans sound reasonable enough, and I'm now inching to more getting you your tools on. I don't blame you if you think this is a master plan on my end, but I'm just venting a lot in the end and Discord is just a place I vent, and people sometimes give me more helpful advice on how to express to you. I could've done a lot worse on the spur of high emotions but I was told to hold off. Anyhow, at least let me know if you're feeling all right though. I'm feeling a little better talking to you about this. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 05:01, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :I would like to voice my support for Dysk getting his sysop rights back, as this was never voted on and sysoprevoke must be voted on. I'd also like to see him get his tech rights back, if only for the sake of forgiveness and mercy in the face of a rare mistake--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:42, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::Double standards noted. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 10:28, 30 August 2020 (UTC) Dysk should not be let out of sysoprevoke, at least not yet. Give it time.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 12:10, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :Then follow the procedure to vote on putting me in sysoprevoke as required. Nobody has the right to unilaterally put another user in sysoprevoke permanently, or for an undefined non-emergency period of time. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 00:57, 31 August 2020 (UTC) == Request to get sysop back == I think I've improved substantially, and I think that my conduct during the latest dispute with Raven, including making peace and being civil with him, shows favor on my record. I hereby request to have sysop back, even if only to not feel left out considering how most active users have sysop. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 10:33, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :That doesn't look like a sufficient reason to be granted sysop. Why should you be given it? [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 15:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::Oxy, as recently as August 20, you called GR a &quot;miserable piece of shit.&quot;[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Oxyaena&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2215894] ([[:RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive108#Oxyaena]]) Is it so hard for you to not resort to name calling? [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 16:51, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::I made peace with Raven after that, and I have been relatively civil since then. {{ping|Flandres}} and {{ping|The Crow}} can attest to that. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 20:26, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Leaving Raven to his own devices ain't making peace in my book. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 00:54, 31 August 2020 (UTC) :::::Not this shit again. There was a vote on this only a month ago and you lost. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 03:02, 31 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Don't you remember ranting and raving about how everyone were dicks and making a big flounce on Discord because you lost a vote? [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 03:03, 31 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::Several people have changed their minds since then, and Ace, do you really need to be so unapproachable, for want of a better word? It's like every time you hear my name you instantly become hostile. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 11:53, 1 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::: I’m not being hostile. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 05:42, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :I endorse Oxy getting sysop back. Oxy’s behavior has improved quite a bit, and I think the sanction has gone on long enough. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:10, 1 September 2020 (UTC) ::I personally see her behavior as having stayed largely the same, and I can't help but mistrust her thirst for status. Also trying to put us through this process every. single. month. Does not speak to her maturity--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:11, 1 September 2020 (UTC) :::I genuinely think it’s less about power and more about feeling put out that everyone has sysop and she doesn’t. There’s a reason the user rights request page exists. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:14, 1 September 2020 (UTC) ::::That's exactly it. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:38, 1 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Oxy has definitely improved but I don't think the community is ready yet to give it back. I think a few more weeks without any serious conflicts and the community will agree to it. BTW Oxy, asking people every week to get it back will make some people vote against it. I'd recommend waiting four weeks or so. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:39, 1 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Oxy last time you also said people had changed their minds and there needed to be a vote. You didn't get your way and had a '''huge''' fucking meltdown. That's why I do not endorse you getting your rights back - when things don't go your way you blame everyone else, quit multiple times, get really fucking abusive and the cycle restarts. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 21:56, 1 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}My stance is known. Ronins sanctions and the assumption that she doesn't melt down again during a second vote, as per the last time this was brought up. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 22:11, 1 September 2020 (UTC) : Given the nature and seriousness of Oxyaena's misconduct as a sysop, I will continue opposing these requests until she admits what she did and we can talk about it with her losing her cool. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 22:46, 1 September 2020 (UTC) ::Oxyaena, I'd really recommend that you don't ask again until January at the earliest. Until then, keep your nose clean and walk away from trouble if you can. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 06:58, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::I agree with Spud. Oxy, you voted for the change in community standards ([[:RationalWiki talk:Community Standards/Archive21]]), which included [[Civility|civil]] discussion. Yet, you did not act civilly with regard to the GR dispute. Being uncivil can cause needless escalations and grief for people not initially involved. It's great that you are now at peace with GR, but not being a source of escalation in the first place shows greater maturity. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:18, 2 September 2020 (UTC) == Vote on Dysk == {{Vote closed|Slight majority (11 to 9) in favor of just warning Dysk not to do it again and leaving the sanction as a week or so in sysoprevoke (time served) with many of the votes the other way calling for a very limited sanction and in substantial agreement}} Since y'all need to vote on this, here goes. A couple of days ago, I got pissed at a few unnamed users here on this wiki, and decided to use the Tech powerz I had to suppress (a form of deletion) the Chicken Coop. Obviously this was a somewhat inappropriate way to act under the circumstances, thankfully around an hour later this page was restored by LGM, and normal business resumed. Now for deciding on the sanction I get for this, I have arranged a vote below. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:20, 31 August 2020 (UTC) === Remove tech === # === Remove tech, and sysoprevoke === #I don't think Dysk should get tech rights considering the impulsive actions. Sysop rights are more negotiable but I'm not opposed restoring rights at the sysop level sooner than tech. What's making me hesitate was that Dysk did not use a delete action properly (sysops can delete pages; if Dysk used tech powers to delete and suppress the Chicken Coop, I doubt Dysk can refrain from using basic delete tools under heavy pressure), and Dysk also engaged in disruptive blocking of one user despite repeated requests to stop. ([[RationalWiki:Blocking_policy#Joke_blocks]] states &quot;overuse of minute-plus blocks, or blocks against sysops in the middle of editing, are never appreciated by the blockee&quot;). Heck, I'm not opposed to omitting sysoprevoke compared to just Dysk simply not having any sysop rights. Dysk has to do more than just promise this won't happen again, though; I'd like to see them live out maybe a week or more without the rights which is long enough to feel consequences of impulsive actions, which is to hopefully have them thinking twice before acting on impulse, even if it's not long enough to drastically change habits. This length span also should be long enough before elections so Dysk can participate in them as needed. Permaban is way too harsh and not appropriate given the action, while disruptive, is not destructive enough for this. A warning, on the other hand, implies Dysk can follow through the warning, which I don't think really addresses the behavior as Dysk had opportunities to accept being told that their actions are inappropriate and they didn't react accordingly. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 21:55, 31 August 2020 (UTC) #Cosign LGM. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 22:02, 31 August 2020 (UTC) #Regrettable, but I think necessary. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 22:39, 31 August 2020 (UTC) #I'd like to echo all the sentiments above. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 23:34, 31 August 2020 (UTC) #I don't take pleasure in voting this and I only do so under the stipulation that this is super temporary and that it is returned at the first sign of conciliation. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:01, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #:{{ping|Shabidoo}} in this vote, temporary sysoprevoke is the warning and do nothing section, because dysk has been in sysoprevoke for a while already based on LGM doing it unilaterally. You are voting for a permanent sanction even if your words are different. {{User:Ze/?}} 20:13, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 00:54, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #With Shabi. Sysop can be returned upon request anytime from my perspective from let's say... the first day of October onwards. On request only, I don't think anyone should be required to monitor it. As far as tech goes, I feel he kinda blew his chance at it for a longer while. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 22:19, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #Concur. —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:07, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #[[User:Scream!!|Scream!!]] ([[User talk:Scream!!|talk]]) 22:22, 3 September 2020 (UTC) === Perma-ban === # === 3 month block === # === Warning and do nothing === #A single mark on an otherwise spotless record. This is a good faith user and ought to be treated as such--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 22:32, 31 August 2020 (UTC) #:In the spirit of ambiguity, since Dysk is already in sysoprevoke, are you voting to leave them there?{{unsigned|Ariel31459}} #::He should ''definitely'' be taken out of sysoprevoke as he was put there unilaterally and he never abused his sysop rights--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 16:49, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #::: I'm gonna assume this action is remove sysoprevoke. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 19:00, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #I see little reason to question his trustworthiness overall given his longish record of being helpful, despite this easily correctable lapse in judgment. Lest I get personally attacked by Oxyaena for some perceived hypocrisy here, as she is wont to do, I'll just remind people that her record of rights abuses as a sysop involved pervasive lying, which should disqualify her from ever being a sysop unless and until she comes clean and discusses what she did without swearing at people she hates for calling her out. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 22:43, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #Since it's apparently the first offence of note from Dysk, I'm willing to believe a temporary insanity plead. Slap him with a trout and be done with it.[[User:Coigreach|Coigreach]] ([[User talk:Coigreach|talk]]) 07:49, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #So the user brings ''himself'' to the coop for review. He says he did wrong and we can assume that he does not intend re-offend. The purpose of any kind of &quot;punishment&quot; should be to ensure it is less likely that the offense will be repeated. I don't think it will be repeated so no action is necessary. Obviously if it is repeated then that would change. [[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|&lt;sup&gt;&quot;Life is short and (insert adjective)&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 12:12, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #Time served already in sysoprevoke should be sufficient punishment, given that D has a long history of good service, and knows he was in the wrong, and was a first time offense. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 17:10, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #Dysk wasn't trying to wreck anything as I pointed out when it happened, there were multiple far more damaging things that could have been done instead of deleting a page, undone in ten seconds easily, and his first post after it happened was to admit it was a mistake and explain it. {{User:Ze/?}} 20:09, 2 September 2020 (UTC) # &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:16, 2 September 2020 (UTC) # [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:25, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #Thanks for the show of support guys. I promise not to fuck-up again. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 16:21, 3 September 2020 (UTC) #Another leftwing fascist coup thwarted. [[User:RobSmith|nobs]][[User talk:RobSmith|&lt;sup&gt;Black Guns Matter&lt;/sup&gt;]] 03:43, 5 September 2020 (UTC) #:D fucking cooped himself, you fucking ignorant arsehole! [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 04:52, 5 September 2020 (UTC) #::{{ping|Spud}} Why is that so many users on RW have an issue with profanity? Is it to reflect on how rational (or not) this site is? [[User:LT|LT]]&lt;sup&gt;'''''[[User talk:LT|May Dataclarifier be well!]]'''''&lt;/sup&gt; 04:59, 5 September 2020 (UTC) #:::It's Spud, he doesn't treat people respectfully. Just ignore (I am a lefty, to be clear, and he doesn't treat me properly either). {{User:GR/sig}} 05:02, 5 September 2020 (UTC) #::::{{ping|LT}} Your fucking Conservapedia friend Rob Smith just used the word &quot;shot&quot; a couple of fucking minutes ago. Why don't you gibe him a fucking hard rime for being a rude boy? [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) #:::::{{ping|Spud}} Is your reply meant to reflect on my point about profanity usage? [[User:LT|LT]]&lt;sup&gt;'''''[[User talk:LT|May Dataclarifier be well!]]'''''&lt;/sup&gt; 05:41, 5 September 2020 (UTC) #::::::{{ping|LT}}. Yes. &quot;Gibe&quot; was a typo for &quot;give&quot; and &quot;shot&quot; was a typo for &quot;shit&quot;. There's your answer. So fuck off and tell Rob Smith not to use rude words. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 06:13, 5 September 2020 (UTC) #GR here. Dysk is innocent of all charges. [[User:Ravenism|Ravenism]] ([[User talk:Ravenism|talk]]) 20:10, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:Invalid, this account does not meet [[RationalWiki:Eligible users]]. Account is less than three months old and has less than 75 edits. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 20:28, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::Fixed that. {{User:Ze/?}} 20:30, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:::You didn't. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Log/GR The log says created at September 2nd] I'm afraid. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 20:33, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::::What does the old account say? [[User:GR|GR]] ([[User talk:GR|talk]]) 20:34, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:::::[[RationalWiki:RationalMedia Foundation/Voter registration]] suggests that GR is eligible to vote. If necessary GR could vote by proxy using his old account anyway. {{User:Ze/?}} 20:39, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::::::Those are for the RMF, not for policy or penalty votes. And if he wants to vote, he can use his Eligible account. It is not on our end that he according to what I know of it scrambled the password and changed the email to bollocks. But if he can sign in with his ''original'' account (his second account isn't Eligible either), he can vote, sure. Not on this one, this one isn't valid. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 20:44, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:::::::because you insist I reached out to the original account and it voted by proxy. {{User:Ze/?}} 21:09, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::::::::He can't proxy vote that way. Vote still invalid and I've struck this one entirely. Cut the bullshit as well as what is now honestly really blatant meatpuppetry. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:13, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:::::::::no rule against it. {{User:Ze/?}} 21:18, 2 September 2020 (UTC) === Goat === # Baa. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:21, 31 August 2020 (UTC) # Is &quot;remove tech and sysoprevoke&quot; = &quot;remove tech and remove sysoprevoke&quot; or &quot;remove tech and implement sysoprevoke&quot;? {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 21:49, 31 August 2020 (UTC) #:Just clarify the proposition. If anyone disagrees, they can crossout their names.[[User:Ariel31459|Ariel31459]] ([[User talk:Ariel31459|talk]]) 02:34, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #:: I added a comma. That should do it if you mean both remove tech and put in sysoprevoke.[[User:Ariel31459|Ariel31459]] ([[User talk:Ariel31459|talk]]) 02:37, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #So having just accused others of off-wiki canvassing at the Community Standards, Ravenism is created and Ze unblocks herself and they both vote the same way in a poll to defend Dysk? Interesting --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 20:17, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:If canvassing isn't allowed, why is LGM, Crow, etc. allowed to do it? [[User:Ravenism|Ravenism]] ([[User talk:Ravenism|talk]]) 20:18, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::I just looked through the conversation in question (the rat-workshop channel on RatCord). I see LGM, Crow and others discussing current events on the wiki. I didn't see any vote canvassing, no encouraging people to vote either in any way. #::I would ask you why you are here? You supposedly left this wiki, scrambled your password and created a new wiki. But here you are (again), causing drama (again) presumably because your ban vote isn't likely to go through.--[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 20:25, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:::It may have had smth to do with the attempt to get rid of dysk and other rule mischief, just a thought. {{User:Ze/?}} 20:28, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::::May I recommend looking at the actual substance of this vote. We don't want to get rid of Dysk. In fact, most people supporting removing his tech right and sysoprevoke are saying that he can get sysop back fairly quickly. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 20:30, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:::::You have the tenacity to vote for permanent sysoprevoke and claim to not want to get rid of dysk. Ok. {{User:Ze/?}} 20:32, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::::::Don't forget what Crow called me. A &quot;&lt;code&gt;you dishonest little shit&lt;/code&gt;&quot; (not even punished, but promoted to tech!). [[User:GR|GR]] ([[User talk:GR|talk]]) 20:33, 2 September 2020 (UTC) It doesn't say permanent. Are you sure it's permanent? {{unsig|2600:100c:b2b0:8958:44b1:d5bf:a0a4:913b}} :Yes I'm sure and no option for temporary was proposed. {{User:Ze/?}} 21:14, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::It's not permanent, it's just a &quot;place into sysoprevoke right now&quot;, but if you look at the actual fucking description of these votes, you'll quickly realize that most people are at least willing to place him out of sysoprevoke and back into sysop pretty quickly. Jesus... {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:16, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::if its not permanent, how long is it for and where does it say that. {{User:Ze/?}} 21:20, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Check the actual votes. Also, check our policies surrounding sysoprevoke itself. It can be overturned at any point the mob thinks it should be overturned, and the mob seems to overwhelmingly agree that he can get them back fairly easily. Finally, I find there to be some dry amusement in that you say that there is an attempt to get rid of Dysk but um... ''the person who made this vote is Dysk''. So uh, unless you want to argue that the person who wants to &quot;get rid of Dysk&quot; is Dysk, then something here doesn't really add up. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:24, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::::The overwhelming support for letting me off the hook, so to speak, gives me some faith this wiki ain't completely fucked yet. Did I attempt to get rid of myself? Yeah I think I did in a subconscious way self-sabotage myself... oh well. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 16:19, 3 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Not sure I'd call it an &quot;overwhelming&quot; show of support, at this moment the vote is 8 votes to remove tech, 9 votes to keep tech (one of which is your own vote). But yes, I can't see it swinging the other way so it does look like you tech rights will end up getting restored. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 16:49, 3 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::I didn't expect any votes in favour of a lesser sanction. Furthermore, I expected ''at least someone'' to vote for a ban. The favourable response is welcome, yet unexpected. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 17:00, 3 September 2020 (UTC) {{Vote closed bottom}} I would like to remind everyone that by suppressing the entire coop, it is entirely possible that RW has been opened up to possible legal issues. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&amp;type=suppress&amp;user=&amp;page=RationalWiki%3AChicken+coop&amp;offender=&amp;year=&amp;month=-1&amp;tagfilter=&amp;subtype= Please reference the suppression logs], where notably DG suppressed a case that was &quot;potentially libelous&quot;, yet it had to be restored when unsuppressing the coop, as well as seemingly another supression by Oxy over something else before and a few minor other suppressions. Just pointing this one out. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:03, 3 September 2020 (UTC) : Assuming I get tech back at this point. I can simply check and resupress the relevant revisions. After all, I am a board member. This ain't going to take me long to fix. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 17:06, 3 September 2020 (UTC) ::Simple fix: Give Dysk tech so that he can clean it up. This isn't rocket science. {{User:GR/sig}} 17:32, 3 September 2020 (UTC) I think this a good as reason as any to continue with normal business and let peeps fix what they broke. {{User:Ze/?}} 13:48, 5 September 2020 (UTC) :Tedious tasks ahead, I guess. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 15:18, 5 September 2020 (UTC) == What the fuck is happening == LGM resigns as mod and Raven, who lancbed his way out of a coop, is back, and gets sysoprevoke removed ''and'' his tools restored. Y'all give Raven the benefit of the doubt numerous fucking times, and yet give me none, when it's been shown time and time again I`m nowhere ''near'' as bad as Raven. Seriously, what the hell? Someone just can't LANCB their way out of a coop and expect everything to be okay, not after how they treated us. LGM's gone, GC's gone, and I`m seriously considering leaving. Ugh, this wiki makes me ''sick''. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 20:42, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :Didn't you say you would stop attacking me? [[User:GR|GR]] ([[User talk:GR|talk]]) 20:43, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::I`m quite frankly ''disgusted'' at what is happening, Raven. Even you must acknowledge that part of the blame lies on your behalf. This shit would be funny if it were fictional, but it's really not. What has RW become? The circus? &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 20:45, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2220488&amp;oldid=2220486 [[User:GR|GR]] ([[User talk:GR|talk]]) 20:46, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::::[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Chicken_coop#Le_Vote And here we have 14 to 12 votes] for you to be permabanned, which you weaseled your way out of via pulling a coop. :::::Here's some diffs to remind you of your past: [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217083], [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:GR&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217044], [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fascism&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2197105], [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fascism&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2197051], and let's not forget when you insulted Flandres for being fair to you, and comparing me to Putin. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 20:51, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::In fact, let's just link to [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Chicken_coop#LeftyGreenMario_is_fed_up_with_Raven LGM's detailed, and comprehensive essay] on this subject at your coop case, which, you, again, weaseled your way out of via LANCB. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 20:53, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::If you behave like this after a supposed détente, I won't vote to give you a sysop back. Not deserved. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2220488&amp;oldid=2220486]{{User:GR/sig}} 20:58, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::I`m not blameless, but this shit wouldn't fly if it were me in question. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:00, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Raven, I don't want you angry, I want you ''gone''. Just go away, this site isn't the right site for you anyways. It'll be a lot easier on everyone if you go away quietly, none of this needs to happen. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:02, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::Are you trying to get rid of me? I got a lot of butthurt when I said this. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:10, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::Forget I said anything, it's not worth rehashing. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:15, 2 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} I won't forget it. Next time you ask for sysop I will oppose it (because of this). {{User:GR/sig}} 21:24, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :I mean, you admitted to starting drama on purpose on the Discord, so.... &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:37, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::Since you quickly undid your promise to no longer attack me, I will no longer just accept your proposals of armistice, considering this recent breach of civility. Make your words worth anything. I will no longer entertain this subject. {{User:GR/sig}} 22:18, 2 September 2020 (UTC) == Proxy votes == Hello, everyone. I hate to bother people but Godless Raven was locked out of his account again (he apparently uses randomly generated passwords that he stores on his browser. When he deletes the stored password and removes his email information from his account, this makes it impossible for him to log back in). He desires to edit from [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/GR this account.] Now, the question is, does this account have franchise? Personally, I say yes. So long as he is only voting with a single account I don't see the issue. The spirit of the law is clearly being followed, Godless Raven meets the minimum edit count and account age requirements to be a voter in policy/penalty discussions.--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:39, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :I mean sure. I don’t see why not. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 22:24, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::He just said he doesn't even want to be here, wants to leave and just wants his sysop so he can delete stuff before going away forever. Why does he need to vote then? [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:16, 3 September 2020 (UTC) :::The vote is needed because he fake-LANCBed before. If he was actually leaving, then why is GR still in the Saloon?[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/GR] [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:40, 3 September 2020 (UTC) ::::What's the problem here? {{User:GR/sig}} 18:39, 3 September 2020 (UTC) == So Dysk got all his rights back == And I`m still here languishing in sysoprevoke while Raven, a user who has worse conduct than me, is still a ninja and sysop even after he pulled a lancb to weasel his way out of a permaban. Great. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 15:43, 5 September 2020 (UTC) :Temporary sysoprevoke in your case I believe, you could make a vote on removing it now, or at a later point in time. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 15:48, 5 September 2020 (UTC) ::I object. She told me she wanted to make peace [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2220488&amp;oldid=2220486] and later attacked me yet again. {{ping|D}} {{User:GR/sig}} 15:51, 5 September 2020 (UTC) :::I'm not a mod, my comment is about the procedure of the request, the substance of the request would be decided at the vote. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 15:57, 5 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:RationalMedia_Foundation&diff=2222714</id> <title>RationalWiki talk:RationalMedia Foundation</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:RationalMedia_Foundation&diff=2222714"/> <updated>2020-09-05T15:53:01Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* Open request for comment */ new section <hr /> <div>{{Board talk header}} {{Talkpage/Pibot |maxarchivesize = 30K |minthreadsleft = 2 |algo = old(30d) |archive = RationalWiki talk:RationalMedia Foundation/Archive%(counter)d }} == Open request for comment == Anything y'all want the board to do this year, write it below. Be advised, I can't promise you that everything you ask for will happen, this is for community input. After all, this is your board of trustees, for your wiki, and your input should be of importance. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 15:53, 5 September 2020 (UTC) === Comments === {{tumbleweed}}</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&diff=2222712</id> <title>RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&diff=2222712"/> <updated>2020-09-05T15:48:28Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: /* So Dysk got all his rights back */ <hr /> <div>{{mod talk header}} &lt;center&gt;[[RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation/Archive_List|Archives for this page]]&lt;/center&gt; {{#tag:inputbox| bgcolor=transparent type=fulltext prefix=RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation break=yes width={{{width|60}}} searchbuttonlabel={{{label|Search the archives}}} }} [[File:Moderator.jpg|thumb]] __TOC__ &lt;!-- write below this line --&gt; == Dysk just nuked the Coop == LGM took away his tech rights and put him in sysoprevoke. As per procedure, we now must discuss it and decide if we want to keep it, and since the coop both was occupied and is right now out of commission, here goes. I don't really think he oughta get them back, this is probably the straightest abuse of rights as you can get. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 20:57, 27 August 2020 (UTC) {{collapse|GR trying to make this about him and LGM; also Raven asked to be banned}} :Will you coop LGM for abusing her mod rights? Or nah? {{User:GR/sig}} 21:01, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::...what mod right abuse? {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:03, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::When she unilaterally indef banned and sysoprevoked me without a cause. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Stop trying to change the subject! This is about Dysk. Why is it so hard for you to come up with a defense that does not involve using someone else as a distraction from your own conduct! Are you incapable of defending yourself?-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 21:08, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::{{ec}} Defending myself? I didn't do any of this. I am talking about the one time LGM unilaterally sysoprevoked me and indef banned without a proper cause.[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&amp;type=block&amp;user=&amp;page=GR&amp;year=&amp;month=-1&amp;tagfilter=&amp;hide_tag_log=1] {{User:GR/sig}} 21:10, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Good. Now explain why that is relevant to this case. &quot;This other person did something&quot; is not a valid defense in this scenario.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 21:12, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::Well she has a habit of misbehaving. So I don't think it's okay for her to point fingers at anyone when she is dripping mud from head to feet. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:13, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::{{ping|GR}} Jesus christ man, he fucking NUKED THE COOP. Sorry if I don't give 2 flying shits about your cheap whataboutism on LGM. You got sysoprevoked for trying to restore Dysk's sysop rights after he got sysoprevoked, go cry a river. Also, I forgot to provide logs since I didn't want the procedural shit to get bogged by &quot;waah LGM removed my rights without process&quot;. CS has shit on this, I've said it plenty. Either way, here is [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&amp;type=suppress&amp;user=&amp;page=RationalWiki%3AChicken+coop&amp;year=&amp;month=-1&amp;tagfilter=&amp;hide_patrol_log=1&amp;hide_tag_log=1 the Suppression Log]. He literally can't claim that he didn't do it, the logs prove it. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:09, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::I also don't really care about your tantrum, I am talking about mod abuse. Malicious actions that are serious. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:11, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Cut the whataboutism crap. Unless you have something relevant to say about Dysk's actions, may I recommend you just shut up. This isn't about you, so stop putting your ego in the door. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:13, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::Indeed it isn't about me, it's about LGM's repeated offences against CS. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:14, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::No it isn't, this is about Dysk. Now unless you have something actually useful to add, I'm gonna recommend someone protect this page to be sysop only because you're trying to distract and make this about you. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:16, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Well yeah, gotta suppress those who want transparency. Gotcha. Gotta defend bad actors when you're one. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:17, 27 August 2020 (UTC) {{collapse end}} : For the record, I’m fully in favour of Sysoprevoking Dysk after that stunt (about 20,000 edits got suppressed). For the sake of transparency in the aftermath I removed the rights from a [[User:Judge Dredd|bot]] he set up just today (no idea what it was for) and in my opinion that should remain the same. I also removed the tech rights from [[User:Ze]], given that she’s Dysk’s sister and involved in the recent drama (though seemingly not involved in Dyskgate). I’ll leave it up to the others to decide if she gets tech back. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 21:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::I'd suggest keeping a close eye on Ze, although I hope she wasn't involved and this is just Dysk going rogue on his own. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:09, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::Hopefully it was an error or misunderstanding. I'm curious to see what the explanation was.[[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:16, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::It probably was a fatfinger. No idea. Maybe. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:18, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::Are we ever going to talk about the mod abuses of LGM, though? {{User:GR/sig}} 21:18, 27 August 2020 (UTC) (edit conflict)So, I would wait for Dysk to provide an explanation just because this might be a monumental technical fuck-up...but it had better be a pretty damn good explanation. Also, will everyone please ignore GR and his sad attempts to derail the conversation?-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 21:20, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::I have mostly stayed out of the GR business... except for now. Dude, fuck off - this isn't about you. Stay on topic or fuck right off. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 21:21, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::I didn't do anything though, Ace? {{User:GR/sig}} 21:24, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Yes you did - you turned a section about someone else's behaviour into a grievance of you own. Don't do that. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:29, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::It isn't about me. It's about LGM. She has a pattern of abusing her power. People here only look at the reactions of the attacked faction (like Dysk) but never care about what caused the reaction (like LGM consistently applying dishonest and hostile tactics). {{User:GR/sig}} 22:32, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::For fucks sake you fucking daft dick. This was a section about Dysk and only Dsyk until you rode in and shooting your face off about some spat your having with LGM. This is fucking simple - take your bullshit elsewhere. This section is about Dysk you numb nuts. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 23:16, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :Since I just had to fold the bit with evidence, here is [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&amp;type=suppress&amp;user=&amp;page=RationalWiki%3AChicken+coop&amp;year=&amp;month=-1&amp;tagfilter=&amp;hide_patrol_log=1&amp;hide_tag_log=1 the Suppression Log] again. It has evidence for his actions. Also, I just collapsed GRs comments. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:23, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::Remove D’s tech rights. You don’t get to pull that shit. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:24, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::He's a staff member. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:25, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Doesn’t mean shit. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:26, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::{{ping|DuceMoosolini}} LGM did. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:27, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::Fucking good. D has displayed serious impulse control issues and obviously cannot be trusted. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:28, 27 August 2020 (UTC) {{od}} That page was annoying me intensely. In a moment of anger I clicked a button to make it disappear. My bad. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:57, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :Well, regarding issues with impulse control, remember when someone told people in saloon bar &quot;fucking ass shits, get covid and die&quot;? That person has yet to be punished. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:59, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::@GR- fucking dead horses is alright with you, we know. Beating them too, apparently? @Dysk, I forgive you for your easily rectified outburst. We're only human--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 22:46, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::necrozoophilia, huh. {{User:GR/sig}} 22:54, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::(edit conflict) I will assume Dysk made an honest mistake, but the deletion itself is a deliberate choice done in bad judgement, and the suppression so it didn't show in the logs was also a big, fatal mistake that happened that required a moderator to step in and fix. Regardless, the tech role is a big responsibility and Dysk has failed to honor this through impulse, so while mistakes can be forgiven, Dysk should not have the tech responsibility, not for a very long time, if ever again. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 22:57, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :::::I don't see how this has very much gravity as a standalone incident. If you can demonstrate that Dysk has a history of pulling such stunts I am willing to listen but otherwise this is a harmless, easily undone fluke-[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 23:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::::That self-awareness right now... {{User:GR/sig}} 22:59, 27 August 2020 (UTC) {{od}} I presume that putting vaguely related users, who did nothing, in sysoprevoke isn't a mistake... oh wait, I can't talk about that... of course I agree with the basic principle, that deleting a page is a unforgivable action of grave importance, as the 5 seconds it takes to press the restore button is a tragic loss of administrative time, truly worthy of permanent censure. Carry on. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 23:16, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :I'm asking, why do we give out tech rights? Why do we restrict page suppresion, why is Dysk allowed to delete a page with 2,000+ revisions and the normal sysop can't? Why do we not grant block rights to people who can't be trusted to have block rights, as blocks are easily undone? Page suppression is not to be used really lightly, and it takes a moderator to undo the suppression and also try to view the suppression logs. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 23:25, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::Why are you asking? I assume as a mod you would know what the answers are. In any case. Tech rights are given to people who want to use the edit filter, sitenotice, et al. We do routinely give block rights to people who can't be trusted with it, but, imagining for a moment we didn't do that, it would be to avoid users being unnecessarily expelled from the wiki. The bigdelete restriction on deletion is due to the possibility of very large deletions (eg: the saloon bar) taking out the database accidentally by overloading it. This would be a Bad Thing™. Page suppression is eh, tech/mod level delete, functionality is identical. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 00:06, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :::I'm not asking for an explanation of what the tools do and whatnot, I am asking, why do people ask for tech rights, why do we grant or reject their requests? And I will argue, that all blocks are easily undone too. Why do you think some people don't deserve block rights if blocks can just be undone? And yes, there's a restriction on bigdelete because it has serious consequences if abused, on top of the revdel abuse. What's stopping you from attempting to bigdelete Saloon Bar? I do not trust you from refraining from your impulses. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 00:27, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::::This was a one-time fuckup and he admitted wrong-doing. He is a good faith user and ought to be treated as such.--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 00:39, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :::::They also reverted LGM's sysoprevoke of GR, done, I presume, to enforce a temporary block. Techs should not countermand moderators, that's what the coop is for.[[User:Ariel31459|Ariel31459]] ([[User talk:Ariel31459|talk]]) 00:51, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Infinite block Ariel, and without following due process. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 00:54, 28 August 2020 (UTC) {{od}} Eh LGM, I would grant certain sysop rights to everyone including BoNs if I could... I think everyone should have block rights equally, the very principle of dividing sysops, mods, techs, and editors is distasteful to me. I could argue that this is a form of fascism, directly responsible for many HCM events, and so forth... the wiki would be fairer if there were no techs, no mods, no sysops, and editors gained rights automatically over time. Bans could be enacted via a voting extension, the details are not unworkable, of course it's not the situation here on this wiki right now. Putting my ideologically guided thoughts to one side, what are you saying here? I told you I agreed with your decision already, I don't doubt for a moment that I would have done the same. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 00:54, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :That wasn't clear that you agreed with my decision. I am asking to explain your reasoning on why some rights are restricted, even if they seem like they can be easily undone, including page suppression from sysops. I'm sorry if I didn't come clearly. By the way, I don't think your idea of RationalWiki will work; I think we need some form of power difference to prevent abuse. I believe RationalWiki started as this but established moderators/crats as soon as issues cropped up. I do not see anything closely resembling fascism; I see a bunch of people with nearly equal rights as another fighting over what and what shouldn't be done. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 01:02, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::I wrote the following: :::&quot;&quot; ''of course I agree with the basic principle, that deleting a page is a unforgivable action of grave importance, as the 5 seconds it takes to press the restore button is a tragic loss of administrative time, truly worthy of permanent censure. Carry on.'' &quot;&quot; ::Mayhaps this came over as sarcasm? The rest of my commentary here is my attempt at explaining I don't think userrights should be restricted as they are, that power imbalance is unnecessary hirachary (fascism), that you seem to have overreated to a momentary fuck-up in terms of your related actions, and of course a certain amount of confusion as a result. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 01:32, 28 August 2020 (UTC) {{trollcollapse}} You know how you ranted about editor retention issues? What the fuck have you done in mainspace of late? And you had rights to nuke the coup and stir up plenty of drama prior to that. Yeah, my opinion on your bullshit right now is pretty low. If you aren't contributing to the Wiki and are an actual net negative at this point, shut the fuck up. [[Special:Contributions/72.184.174.199|72.184.174.199]] ([[User talk:72.184.174.199|talk]]) 13:18, 28 August 2020 (UTC) {{collapseend}} :I ranted about editor retention because I quit the site in 2019 over an unrelated issue. Yeah I never returned from that LANCB, I ain't here now insofar as I have no intention of contributing. My presence as it is, is merely assisting the wiki in surviving via my maintaince of the edit filter for a year or however long, polishing a few bells and whistles, and seeing if I can get a few asshats to see reason once in a while. Oh yeah I'm on the board cause the fucking software needs updating. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 02:27, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :Dysk, I don't think that expressing your tangential desire to grant Sysop to all-comers exactly helps your case. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 01:53, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::Of course, you are a liberal. Indeed you never agreed with me on the nature of that permission. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 02:19, 30 August 2020 (UTC) == Mod abuses == I wanted to ask if there will be any time in which the mod abuses of LGM will be discussed? She unilaterally indef blocked me and sysoprevoked me previously without proper cause nor notifying ATIM. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&amp;type=block&amp;user=&amp;page=GR&amp;year=&amp;month=-1&amp;tagfilter=&amp;hide_tag_log=1] {{User:GR/sig}} 21:22, 27 August 2020 (UTC) :Mod elections. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:25, 27 August 2020 (UTC) ::Alright. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:26, 27 August 2020 (UTC) So...when will all the previous 13 threads be archived, may I ask? This page is getting rather long.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 18:51, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :Feel free. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 02:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC) == Useless edit by sysop adds slur == Can we not do [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Vaush&amp;type=revision&amp;diff=2219164&amp;oldid=2219163 this]? --[[User:Aurelia|Aurelia]] ([[User talk:Aurelia|talk]]) 09:04, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :If you read the paragraph, you'll see that it's not a slur because the accusations really were dumb. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 10:46, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::It's still a superfluous edit using a word that some people consider a slur. If you wanna haha own me in here by saying slurs aren't slurs when they're accurate, or that I'm an oversensitive wokescold, maybe RationalWiki is not the place I thought it was and I'll happily go away and you'll never hear from me again. Otherwise: The paragraph provides enough information that an outright value judgement in the title is really just making the article worse. --[[User:Aurelia|Aurelia]] ([[User talk:Aurelia|talk]]) 13:21, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :::I've undone it. Seems unnecessary to me, but why the need for moderator action? [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 13:52, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::::I'm somewhat bit unfamiliar with how RationalWiki works. It seems Sysop is given out more lightly than other wikis, and does not even closely confer the authority usually associated with the role. My apologies. --[[User:Aurelia|Aurelia]] ([[User talk:Aurelia|talk]]) 14:03, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :I'd say that while the status of the word dumb as a slur is... contentious IMHO (this goes in the territory of &quot;are most of the words we use to describe really bad notions/ideas slurs&quot;, in which case, yes, but I'd argue that &quot;dumb&quot; is so far removed from that context that it's not really a slur anymore), the edit is rather useless. It adds an opinion that the content of the article does not reflect in and of itself (rather it explains the incident), so it probably shouldn't be in there. Also, feel free to dispute any section. Normally we use the article's talkpage to do that, not ATIM though. ATIM is more for larger problems between users (so that mods can come in and try to mediate) or dealing with rights abuses. Anyway, it seems like Kiko removed the section, so it's no longer a problem. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 14:24, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::Even if one accepts the idea that it's a slur, it's not directed at either a sysop or a group of people (gender, sexual orientation, nationality, ethnicity, etc.) It's equivalent to 'dumb idea'. If we can't say that, we're fucked. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 16:42, 28 August 2020 (UTC) :::Lol, imagine thinking dumb is a &quot;slur&quot;. Please. People need to get the fuck over themselves. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 16:44, 28 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Semantics is not a hot topic around here. If by &quot;dumb&quot; one means, &quot;this says little or nothing,&quot; then it is a fairly consistent usage with the adjective, &quot;dumb.&quot; The verb &quot;to dumb-down,&quot; essentially means to say less, usually for people who don't want to or can't understand more. Dumb as a synonym for stupid, is a mostly harmless though questionable usage. [[Special:Contributions/71.174.3.97|71.174.3.97]] ([[User talk:71.174.3.97|talk]]) 18:06, 28 August 2020 (UTC) == Sysoprevoke == I'm in it, I demand to be let out of it. There was no vote, it would be highly irregular given the circumstances to maintain a sanction of this nature beyond the short term, it's disproportionate and unrelated to my recent heat-of-the-moment deletion of your second favourite page. In short, it should not stand. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 02:17, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :I agree - if he didn’t abuse his sysop rights then he shouldn’t had them taken away on someone’s whim. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 02:20, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::Wait until the Coop case is over and in the meantime make constructive edits and try to be nice about asking stuff back. I do not trust you anything beyond autopatrol. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 02:23, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::Cool, I don't trust you with mod. That whole trust thing, it is how it is, not greatly important to the situation. As for being nice, this is me being nice... {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 02:32, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::At the risk of stepping into a fight… Since LGM and D are going to be working together on the Board, perhaps it would be a good idea for you two to at least come to some sort of détente? [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 03:09, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::::I appreciate the attempt at diplomacy but I believe Dysk assumes bad faith from me and cannot take suggestions for improvement without firing passive-aggressive at me some more, and I find this nearly impossible to work with. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 03:14, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::LGM I strongly disagree with many of your recent decisions as a mod, the last time it was Kazitor, this time it's Raven. I'm not offering you any suggestions for improvement, it's a difference of opinion, a subjective matter of judgment. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 03:50, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::I have acknowledged Kazitor's claims of not disagreeing with my behavior but [[Essay talk:RationalWiki has an image problem|Kazitor was referring to my actions toward a bigoted anti-LGBT member]]. Whatever conclusion Kazitor has formed about my behavior is highly undermined that the interaction involved someone that was viciously attacking a sexual identity I happen to have ([https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Scott_Hayward as well as more vile behavior toward gay and trans people]). I rather people stop citing Kazitor as a legitimate criticism on my behavior considering the subject matter Kazitor believes is &quot;up for debate&quot; is some of the most vile, personal, and unpleasant things I had to endure, and I also do not believe Raven's criticisms have any merit. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 04:10, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Yeah the way you think about Raven is the way I think about you. This is a two-way street. As for Kazitor... you drove him off the wiki. Funny how you do that. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 04:19, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::I do not believe how I acted is anywhere near comparable to Raven's behavior. I do not think I have to even begin to try to draw the comparisons. As for Kazitor, as I stated, Kazitor was really selective in what examples they did pick to illustrate the narrative of hostile moderators ([[Essay:RationalWiki has an image problem|the essay itself is short is and is devoid of examples beyond that one incident]]). Kazitor was upset at me being upset at [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Asexuality&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1986539 this comment], [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Asexuality&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1986538 this comment] [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Asexuality&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1986531 this comment] [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Asexuality&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1986533 that] had me react with hostility to. If Kazitor believes these comments are in any way acceptable for the sake of [[RationalWiki:Constructive dialogue]] I do not believe Kazitor's complaints are valid, and I am not troubled by Kazitor leaving over this. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 04:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::Yeah you don't care about the thoughts of others, and willfully disregard the principle of free speech. I get it. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 05:01, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::That's not true. Kazitor could've used any other example, but Kazitor, limited by very short length of the essay, was being selective about those examples. It's a short essay. Kazitor could've picked other examples, but the one example Kazitor chose involved a bigot that rubbed on my wounds from being asexual, and that bigot would've violated community standards by making homophobic remarks. It's far from the best example. I tried to take Kazitor seriously at the time, rethinking about the wiki approach to people (I might have even brought up civility standards and I think I've thought about it a few times), and I even remember at the time being disappointed Kazitor left and leaving a message saying I'll miss them. Again, Kazitor's conclusion had a point, but Kazitor's example is bad and undermined that point. In other words, wasn't helpful to me and I was left wondering what else was Kazitor was thinking about and being disappointed that I couldn't get more examples. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 05:14, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :I agree. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 02:29, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :D should not have sysop. This wasn’t a little mistake, he misused tools to suppress an entire page of debate. He’d do it again too, by harassing people with repeated blocks or deleting the same page over and over again or using some other means of undermining this site and it’s users. He has shown himself to be a hostile element, no better than a troll. His petulant “demand” and antagonism towards someone he theoretically should be pledged to work with also shows this. D has no respect for the wiki or its users, and he means us harm. No sysop. It’s not like he even needs it for anything. It wouldn’t be worth the constant supervision he’d need.{{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 03:17, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::I did have some trepidation in agreeing to unrevoke D, mainly because he was unwilling to explain his actions. By détente, I was thinking of some circumscription around D's editing activities, and mutually agreed upon civility. Maybe I was too quick to agree if this bare minimum can't be agreed upon? [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 03:24, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::I suggested D to wait until the coop is over and in the meantime do some constructive edits to show how sysop tools will help them. I got met with hostility, though. Are my suggestions inappropriate? I can explain why I do not trust Dysk with sysop tools, namely because they have misused deletion and page visibility privileges on a large, public page on a whim and cannot be trusted to handle any pages while having access to the delete button. This is on top of block privileges they have used repeatedly on Crow despite being outlined in the Community Standards that advises against disruptive repeated blocking. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 03:27, 30 August 2020 (UTC) The amount of bad faith here is hilarious. You are clearly using your own ideas of future events, as the base for your opinions. I admit, it was a clear example of tech abuse to delete your second favourite page, I freely admit that was my bad. The idea I mean the wiki harm is... interesting, yet false. I've never said anything to anyone which could give that impression. You made it up yourself. In the meantime I am asking for you to remove sysoprevoke, largely because it's a barrier for the upcoming mod elections... which you would no doubt prefer I didn't run for. That is why I must be pushy on this, apologies if it interferes with your master-plan or some shite. As for constructive edits? Gee, I created most of the current edit filters, and was the only one maintaining them for a fair chunk of time. I got onto the RationalMedia Foundation board, admittedly for the sole purpose of getting slacking sysadmins to install software. I created a few pages here and there as I recall. In any case, I'm not asking for sysop, I'm asking you to remove sysoprevoke. Not for any need to have tools, merely because there are associated restrictions. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 03:43, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :I'm not sure why you believe that it's ridiculous that inferring from your prior judgement you cannot be trusted to change that judgement later on. Admitting your mistakes is only a part of the effort to get people's trust back; actually owning up to the consequences and not demanding favors from others is another. I do not see how your insistence on referring to the chicken coop as &quot;your second-favorite page&quot; is endearing or helping you get your tools back. As for sysoprevoke being a barrier to the upcoming mod elections, the elections will not happen a few months from now; you were lucky you didn't attempt to pull off massive page deletion during November. If you cannot provide a compelling case for enough people to get you out of sysoprevoke (see my suggestions: edit the wiki, wait until the Chicken Coop comes over, exercise basic respect for others) then that's on you and you will have to accept not being able to attend the mod elections. It is not about &quot;interfering with the master-plan or some shit&quot; (ignoring the more unnecessary passive-aggressive jabs at me). As for the edit filters, while you have created them you're the one that decided to abuse your tech powers and lose them. If they need maintenance and you cannot access them because of your prior bad judgement, it's ''you'' that left people not trusting of your capabilities. :In fact your recent attempt to delete the Coop as well as the constant hostility and passive-aggressive remarks (&quot;Gee,&quot; &quot;slacking sysadmins&quot;, &quot;apologies if it interferes with your master-plan or some shite&quot;, &quot;the amount of bad faith here is hilarious&quot;, &quot;you are clearly[...]; this is only for this thread) after the fact makes you even less trustworthy to handle anything mod elections. I still am not convinced you should get your tools back. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 04:00, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::No offence, it's not your right to decide that. If you want to prohibit me standing in the mod elections, you are going to have to make a vote here to put me in sysoprevoke. Because right now, at this time, there is no community action confirming it. As for your master-plan as I put it... tell GC and your friends on Discord I said hi, cause I read the whole channel and woop, that was some hell of a read. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 04:10, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::No but it'll help if you try convincing me to take you out of sysoprevoke. I do not &quot;want&quot; to prohibit you from participating mod elections. I want to make sure you establish trust again. I have made suggestions already on how you can win my trust back, which can make a difference in you getting your rights or not. We don't know yet if I'm adequately representative of what moderators think should happen to you, but you need to assume I am to make a better case for you. So far, I am not compelled by your case of you not editing the wiki because you're more interested in your plans to install software or update the filters. You can build trust if you edit the wiki and work from there. Yes, discussions about you have taken place in Discord. It's clear and no secret I don't take a liking to your behavior. I don't believe you talk about me with much enthusiasm in the Discord circles you frequent. I'm sure you engage in similar discussions but I'm not interested in them. I'm more visibly frustrated and angry in Discord than on RationalWiki, that is true. I don't see how this is indicative of a hidden master plan though; I want to make it clear I do not have an established means of doing whatever to you regardless what you do. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 04:19, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::I have no intention of editing the wiki, not because I'm doing other things, although I am. But, because the wiki is beyond my capacity to fix, as little more than a giant fucking trash-heap of biased and outdated pages few ever read. ::::If you dislike my behaviour, you might do well to understand why I'm acting this way... you know, I've been extremely angry at multiple points, for the effect this has had on others (not Raven) I care about, this anger is not easily resolved, when a bunch of cunts (not you) are running around, making it worse. ::::You held serious discussions on Discord, on the subject of removing me from the board, because that's clearly relevant to deleting the coop. I guess? I'll make you a deal on that, I'll resign, when my to-do list of software updates has been completed. After all, that was the only reason I got on the board. Is it hyperbolic to describe this form of plotting as a master-plan? Maybe, maybe not. I certainly consider it relevant. ::::As for timing, my point is that I want this resolved now. I won't be doing anything between now and November. I need resolution on this matter before moving forward. I'm aware that I lost some userrights due to my own inappropriate action, but I have no intention of publicly explaining the exact goings on in my mind, as private matters are the primary concern in there. This leads me to post as I have, based on procedure, rules, proportionate actions and the like. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 04:44, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::::If you are ever going to be removed from board, you're going to have to be notified either way. At the time I am nervous interacting with you and I figure you'll be nervous and/or having reservations about interacting with me. But again, I have reservations about your overall ability to judge. I have lingering thoughts that you'll be able to put wiki matters behind and try to cooperate with board meetings. I imagine if I hear you I'll try to be pleasant and civil to my ability. I can't imagine trying to give off passive aggressive remarks. :::::I'm not sure how else you can demonstrate trust with me then. I'm trying to think of ways you can show trust or at least try to make an effort about moving on from the incident. Editing the wiki and engaging/responding in content disputes is a simple way of showing activity and participation. If you can propose me something else you can do to help me trust you, I'll listen. I'll try to bite back possible reservations. :::::I believe your anger is valid. I can imagine the frustration of having users talk some harsh, if not outright nasty stuff about you and then having your rights taken off immediately for a mistake you believe to not be serious. It's draining, and it affects your mood in the day. Perhaps this only confirms your suspicions that the wiki is a big circle jerk and laughs at people rather than being constructive and being a collaborative topic. I've seen how Raven was treated right when he joined. I tried to come to his defense when Oxyaeana came in and attacked for not really justifiable reasons. Some users admitted they really don't like Raven and distrust him, which might added to some dripping hostility that Raven responded with. I felt sympathetic for Raven when he met so much resistance at the beginning. I tried to extend a wing for him and tried to help him navigate through content disputes. The frustration is really there, being seemingly unable to contribute anything while people keep undoing your edits. :::::Hmmm, well, if you can't explain what's exactly going on in your mind, you'll have to risk having others like me make incorrect assumptions about you. I notice you asked me to understand you but it will help if you did explain your emotions and thought-processes. Anyhow I figure your plans sound reasonable enough, and I'm now inching to more getting you your tools on. I don't blame you if you think this is a master plan on my end, but I'm just venting a lot in the end and Discord is just a place I vent, and people sometimes give me more helpful advice on how to express to you. I could've done a lot worse on the spur of high emotions but I was told to hold off. Anyhow, at least let me know if you're feeling all right though. I'm feeling a little better talking to you about this. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 05:01, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :I would like to voice my support for Dysk getting his sysop rights back, as this was never voted on and sysoprevoke must be voted on. I'd also like to see him get his tech rights back, if only for the sake of forgiveness and mercy in the face of a rare mistake--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 05:42, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::Double standards noted. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 10:28, 30 August 2020 (UTC) Dysk should not be let out of sysoprevoke, at least not yet. Give it time.-[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 12:10, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :Then follow the procedure to vote on putting me in sysoprevoke as required. Nobody has the right to unilaterally put another user in sysoprevoke permanently, or for an undefined non-emergency period of time. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 00:57, 31 August 2020 (UTC) == Request to get sysop back == I think I've improved substantially, and I think that my conduct during the latest dispute with Raven, including making peace and being civil with him, shows favor on my record. I hereby request to have sysop back, even if only to not feel left out considering how most active users have sysop. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 10:33, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :That doesn't look like a sufficient reason to be granted sysop. Why should you be given it? [[User:Kiko4564|Kiko4564]] ([[User talk:Kiko4564|talk]]) 15:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::Oxy, as recently as August 20, you called GR a &quot;miserable piece of shit.&quot;[https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Oxyaena&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2215894] ([[:RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive108#Oxyaena]]) Is it so hard for you to not resort to name calling? [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 16:51, 30 August 2020 (UTC) :::I made peace with Raven after that, and I have been relatively civil since then. {{ping|Flandres}} and {{ping|The Crow}} can attest to that. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 20:26, 30 August 2020 (UTC) ::::Leaving Raven to his own devices ain't making peace in my book. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 00:54, 31 August 2020 (UTC) :::::Not this shit again. There was a vote on this only a month ago and you lost. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 03:02, 31 August 2020 (UTC) ::::::Don't you remember ranting and raving about how everyone were dicks and making a big flounce on Discord because you lost a vote? [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 03:03, 31 August 2020 (UTC) :::::::Several people have changed their minds since then, and Ace, do you really need to be so unapproachable, for want of a better word? It's like every time you hear my name you instantly become hostile. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 11:53, 1 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::: I’m not being hostile. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 05:42, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :I endorse Oxy getting sysop back. Oxy’s behavior has improved quite a bit, and I think the sanction has gone on long enough. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:10, 1 September 2020 (UTC) ::I personally see her behavior as having stayed largely the same, and I can't help but mistrust her thirst for status. Also trying to put us through this process every. single. month. Does not speak to her maturity--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:11, 1 September 2020 (UTC) :::I genuinely think it’s less about power and more about feeling put out that everyone has sysop and she doesn’t. There’s a reason the user rights request page exists. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 21:14, 1 September 2020 (UTC) ::::That's exactly it. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:38, 1 September 2020 (UTC) :::::Oxy has definitely improved but I don't think the community is ready yet to give it back. I think a few more weeks without any serious conflicts and the community will agree to it. BTW Oxy, asking people every week to get it back will make some people vote against it. I'd recommend waiting four weeks or so. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:39, 1 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Oxy last time you also said people had changed their minds and there needed to be a vote. You didn't get your way and had a '''huge''' fucking meltdown. That's why I do not endorse you getting your rights back - when things don't go your way you blame everyone else, quit multiple times, get really fucking abusive and the cycle restarts. [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 21:56, 1 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}}My stance is known. Ronins sanctions and the assumption that she doesn't melt down again during a second vote, as per the last time this was brought up. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 22:11, 1 September 2020 (UTC) : Given the nature and seriousness of Oxyaena's misconduct as a sysop, I will continue opposing these requests until she admits what she did and we can talk about it with her losing her cool. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 22:46, 1 September 2020 (UTC) ::Oxyaena, I'd really recommend that you don't ask again until January at the earliest. Until then, keep your nose clean and walk away from trouble if you can. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 06:58, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::I agree with Spud. Oxy, you voted for the change in community standards ([[:RationalWiki talk:Community Standards/Archive21]]), which included [[Civility|civil]] discussion. Yet, you did not act civilly with regard to the GR dispute. Being uncivil can cause needless escalations and grief for people not initially involved. It's great that you are now at peace with GR, but not being a source of escalation in the first place shows greater maturity. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:18, 2 September 2020 (UTC) == Vote on Dysk == {{Vote closed|Slight majority (11 to 9) in favor of just warning Dysk not to do it again and leaving the sanction as a week or so in sysoprevoke (time served) with many of the votes the other way calling for a very limited sanction and in substantial agreement}} Since y'all need to vote on this, here goes. A couple of days ago, I got pissed at a few unnamed users here on this wiki, and decided to use the Tech powerz I had to suppress (a form of deletion) the Chicken Coop. Obviously this was a somewhat inappropriate way to act under the circumstances, thankfully around an hour later this page was restored by LGM, and normal business resumed. Now for deciding on the sanction I get for this, I have arranged a vote below. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:20, 31 August 2020 (UTC) === Remove tech === # === Remove tech, and sysoprevoke === #I don't think Dysk should get tech rights considering the impulsive actions. Sysop rights are more negotiable but I'm not opposed restoring rights at the sysop level sooner than tech. What's making me hesitate was that Dysk did not use a delete action properly (sysops can delete pages; if Dysk used tech powers to delete and suppress the Chicken Coop, I doubt Dysk can refrain from using basic delete tools under heavy pressure), and Dysk also engaged in disruptive blocking of one user despite repeated requests to stop. ([[RationalWiki:Blocking_policy#Joke_blocks]] states &quot;overuse of minute-plus blocks, or blocks against sysops in the middle of editing, are never appreciated by the blockee&quot;). Heck, I'm not opposed to omitting sysoprevoke compared to just Dysk simply not having any sysop rights. Dysk has to do more than just promise this won't happen again, though; I'd like to see them live out maybe a week or more without the rights which is long enough to feel consequences of impulsive actions, which is to hopefully have them thinking twice before acting on impulse, even if it's not long enough to drastically change habits. This length span also should be long enough before elections so Dysk can participate in them as needed. Permaban is way too harsh and not appropriate given the action, while disruptive, is not destructive enough for this. A warning, on the other hand, implies Dysk can follow through the warning, which I don't think really addresses the behavior as Dysk had opportunities to accept being told that their actions are inappropriate and they didn't react accordingly. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 21:55, 31 August 2020 (UTC) #Cosign LGM. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 22:02, 31 August 2020 (UTC) #Regrettable, but I think necessary. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 22:39, 31 August 2020 (UTC) #I'd like to echo all the sentiments above. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 23:34, 31 August 2020 (UTC) #I don't take pleasure in voting this and I only do so under the stipulation that this is super temporary and that it is returned at the first sign of conciliation. [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:01, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #:{{ping|Shabidoo}} in this vote, temporary sysoprevoke is the warning and do nothing section, because dysk has been in sysoprevoke for a while already based on LGM doing it unilaterally. You are voting for a permanent sanction even if your words are different. {{User:Ze/?}} 20:13, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #[[User:Flandres|Flandres]] ([[User talk:Flandres|talk]]) 00:54, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #With Shabi. Sysop can be returned upon request anytime from my perspective from let's say... the first day of October onwards. On request only, I don't think anyone should be required to monitor it. As far as tech goes, I feel he kinda blew his chance at it for a longer while. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 22:19, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #Concur. —[[User:Cosmikdebris|cosmikdebris]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Cosmikdebris|talk]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Cosmikdebris|stalk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:07, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #[[User:Scream!!|Scream!!]] ([[User talk:Scream!!|talk]]) 22:22, 3 September 2020 (UTC) === Perma-ban === # === 3 month block === # === Warning and do nothing === #A single mark on an otherwise spotless record. This is a good faith user and ought to be treated as such--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 22:32, 31 August 2020 (UTC) #:In the spirit of ambiguity, since Dysk is already in sysoprevoke, are you voting to leave them there?{{unsigned|Ariel31459}} #::He should ''definitely'' be taken out of sysoprevoke as he was put there unilaterally and he never abused his sysop rights--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 16:49, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #::: I'm gonna assume this action is remove sysoprevoke. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 19:00, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #I see little reason to question his trustworthiness overall given his longish record of being helpful, despite this easily correctable lapse in judgment. Lest I get personally attacked by Oxyaena for some perceived hypocrisy here, as she is wont to do, I'll just remind people that her record of rights abuses as a sysop involved pervasive lying, which should disqualify her from ever being a sysop unless and until she comes clean and discusses what she did without swearing at people she hates for calling her out. [[User:Nutty Roux|Nutty Roux]] ([[User talk:Nutty Roux|talk]]) 22:43, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #Since it's apparently the first offence of note from Dysk, I'm willing to believe a temporary insanity plead. Slap him with a trout and be done with it.[[User:Coigreach|Coigreach]] ([[User talk:Coigreach|talk]]) 07:49, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #So the user brings ''himself'' to the coop for review. He says he did wrong and we can assume that he does not intend re-offend. The purpose of any kind of &quot;punishment&quot; should be to ensure it is less likely that the offense will be repeated. I don't think it will be repeated so no action is necessary. Obviously if it is repeated then that would change. [[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|&lt;sup&gt;&quot;Life is short and (insert adjective)&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 12:12, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #Time served already in sysoprevoke should be sufficient punishment, given that D has a long history of good service, and knows he was in the wrong, and was a first time offense. [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 17:10, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #Dysk wasn't trying to wreck anything as I pointed out when it happened, there were multiple far more damaging things that could have been done instead of deleting a page, undone in ten seconds easily, and his first post after it happened was to admit it was a mistake and explain it. {{User:Ze/?}} 20:09, 2 September 2020 (UTC) # &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:16, 2 September 2020 (UTC) # [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|&lt;sup&gt;Moderator&lt;/sup&gt;]] 22:25, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #Thanks for the show of support guys. I promise not to fuck-up again. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 16:21, 3 September 2020 (UTC) #Another leftwing fascist coup thwarted. [[User:RobSmith|nobs]][[User talk:RobSmith|&lt;sup&gt;Black Guns Matter&lt;/sup&gt;]] 03:43, 5 September 2020 (UTC) #:D fucking cooped himself, you fucking ignorant arsehole! [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 04:52, 5 September 2020 (UTC) #::{{ping|Spud}} Why is that so many users on RW have an issue with profanity? Is it to reflect on how rational (or not) this site is? [[User:LT|LT]]&lt;sup&gt;'''''[[User talk:LT|May Dataclarifier be well!]]'''''&lt;/sup&gt; 04:59, 5 September 2020 (UTC) #:::It's Spud, he doesn't treat people respectfully. Just ignore (I am a lefty, to be clear, and he doesn't treat me properly either). {{User:GR/sig}} 05:02, 5 September 2020 (UTC) #::::{{ping|LT}} Your fucking Conservapedia friend Rob Smith just used the word &quot;shot&quot; a couple of fucking minutes ago. Why don't you gibe him a fucking hard rime for being a rude boy? [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) #:::::{{ping|Spud}} Is your reply meant to reflect on my point about profanity usage? [[User:LT|LT]]&lt;sup&gt;'''''[[User talk:LT|May Dataclarifier be well!]]'''''&lt;/sup&gt; 05:41, 5 September 2020 (UTC) #::::::{{ping|LT}}. Yes. &quot;Gibe&quot; was a typo for &quot;give&quot; and &quot;shot&quot; was a typo for &quot;shit&quot;. There's your answer. So fuck off and tell Rob Smith not to use rude words. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 06:13, 5 September 2020 (UTC) #GR here. Dysk is innocent of all charges. [[User:Ravenism|Ravenism]] ([[User talk:Ravenism|talk]]) 20:10, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:Invalid, this account does not meet [[RationalWiki:Eligible users]]. Account is less than three months old and has less than 75 edits. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 20:28, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::Fixed that. {{User:Ze/?}} 20:30, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:::You didn't. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Log/GR The log says created at September 2nd] I'm afraid. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 20:33, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::::What does the old account say? [[User:GR|GR]] ([[User talk:GR|talk]]) 20:34, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:::::[[RationalWiki:RationalMedia Foundation/Voter registration]] suggests that GR is eligible to vote. If necessary GR could vote by proxy using his old account anyway. {{User:Ze/?}} 20:39, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::::::Those are for the RMF, not for policy or penalty votes. And if he wants to vote, he can use his Eligible account. It is not on our end that he according to what I know of it scrambled the password and changed the email to bollocks. But if he can sign in with his ''original'' account (his second account isn't Eligible either), he can vote, sure. Not on this one, this one isn't valid. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 20:44, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:::::::because you insist I reached out to the original account and it voted by proxy. {{User:Ze/?}} 21:09, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::::::::He can't proxy vote that way. Vote still invalid and I've struck this one entirely. Cut the bullshit as well as what is now honestly really blatant meatpuppetry. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:13, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:::::::::no rule against it. {{User:Ze/?}} 21:18, 2 September 2020 (UTC) === Goat === # Baa. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 21:21, 31 August 2020 (UTC) # Is &quot;remove tech and sysoprevoke&quot; = &quot;remove tech and remove sysoprevoke&quot; or &quot;remove tech and implement sysoprevoke&quot;? {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 21:49, 31 August 2020 (UTC) #:Just clarify the proposition. If anyone disagrees, they can crossout their names.[[User:Ariel31459|Ariel31459]] ([[User talk:Ariel31459|talk]]) 02:34, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #:: I added a comma. That should do it if you mean both remove tech and put in sysoprevoke.[[User:Ariel31459|Ariel31459]] ([[User talk:Ariel31459|talk]]) 02:37, 1 September 2020 (UTC) #So having just accused others of off-wiki canvassing at the Community Standards, Ravenism is created and Ze unblocks herself and they both vote the same way in a poll to defend Dysk? Interesting --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 20:17, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:If canvassing isn't allowed, why is LGM, Crow, etc. allowed to do it? [[User:Ravenism|Ravenism]] ([[User talk:Ravenism|talk]]) 20:18, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::I just looked through the conversation in question (the rat-workshop channel on RatCord). I see LGM, Crow and others discussing current events on the wiki. I didn't see any vote canvassing, no encouraging people to vote either in any way. #::I would ask you why you are here? You supposedly left this wiki, scrambled your password and created a new wiki. But here you are (again), causing drama (again) presumably because your ban vote isn't likely to go through.--[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 20:25, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:::It may have had smth to do with the attempt to get rid of dysk and other rule mischief, just a thought. {{User:Ze/?}} 20:28, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::::May I recommend looking at the actual substance of this vote. We don't want to get rid of Dysk. In fact, most people supporting removing his tech right and sysoprevoke are saying that he can get sysop back fairly quickly. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 20:30, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #:::::You have the tenacity to vote for permanent sysoprevoke and claim to not want to get rid of dysk. Ok. {{User:Ze/?}} 20:32, 2 September 2020 (UTC) #::::::Don't forget what Crow called me. A &quot;&lt;code&gt;you dishonest little shit&lt;/code&gt;&quot; (not even punished, but promoted to tech!). [[User:GR|GR]] ([[User talk:GR|talk]]) 20:33, 2 September 2020 (UTC) It doesn't say permanent. Are you sure it's permanent? {{unsig|2600:100c:b2b0:8958:44b1:d5bf:a0a4:913b}} :Yes I'm sure and no option for temporary was proposed. {{User:Ze/?}} 21:14, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::It's not permanent, it's just a &quot;place into sysoprevoke right now&quot;, but if you look at the actual fucking description of these votes, you'll quickly realize that most people are at least willing to place him out of sysoprevoke and back into sysop pretty quickly. Jesus... {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:16, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::if its not permanent, how long is it for and where does it say that. {{User:Ze/?}} 21:20, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::::Check the actual votes. Also, check our policies surrounding sysoprevoke itself. It can be overturned at any point the mob thinks it should be overturned, and the mob seems to overwhelmingly agree that he can get them back fairly easily. Finally, I find there to be some dry amusement in that you say that there is an attempt to get rid of Dysk but um... ''the person who made this vote is Dysk''. So uh, unless you want to argue that the person who wants to &quot;get rid of Dysk&quot; is Dysk, then something here doesn't really add up. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 21:24, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::::The overwhelming support for letting me off the hook, so to speak, gives me some faith this wiki ain't completely fucked yet. Did I attempt to get rid of myself? Yeah I think I did in a subconscious way self-sabotage myself... oh well. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 16:19, 3 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::Not sure I'd call it an &quot;overwhelming&quot; show of support, at this moment the vote is 8 votes to remove tech, 9 votes to keep tech (one of which is your own vote). But yes, I can't see it swinging the other way so it does look like you tech rights will end up getting restored. --[[User:RWRW|RWRW]] ([[User talk:RWRW|talk]]) 16:49, 3 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::I didn't expect any votes in favour of a lesser sanction. Furthermore, I expected ''at least someone'' to vote for a ban. The favourable response is welcome, yet unexpected. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 17:00, 3 September 2020 (UTC) {{Vote closed bottom}} I would like to remind everyone that by suppressing the entire coop, it is entirely possible that RW has been opened up to possible legal issues. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&amp;type=suppress&amp;user=&amp;page=RationalWiki%3AChicken+coop&amp;offender=&amp;year=&amp;month=-1&amp;tagfilter=&amp;subtype= Please reference the suppression logs], where notably DG suppressed a case that was &quot;potentially libelous&quot;, yet it had to be restored when unsuppressing the coop, as well as seemingly another supression by Oxy over something else before and a few minor other suppressions. Just pointing this one out. {{User:The Crow/sig}} 17:03, 3 September 2020 (UTC) : Assuming I get tech back at this point. I can simply check and resupress the relevant revisions. After all, I am a board member. This ain't going to take me long to fix. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 17:06, 3 September 2020 (UTC) ::Simple fix: Give Dysk tech so that he can clean it up. This isn't rocket science. {{User:GR/sig}} 17:32, 3 September 2020 (UTC) I think this a good as reason as any to continue with normal business and let peeps fix what they broke. {{User:Ze/?}} 13:48, 5 September 2020 (UTC) :Tedious tasks ahead, I guess. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 15:18, 5 September 2020 (UTC) == What the fuck is happening == LGM resigns as mod and Raven, who lancbed his way out of a coop, is back, and gets sysoprevoke removed ''and'' his tools restored. Y'all give Raven the benefit of the doubt numerous fucking times, and yet give me none, when it's been shown time and time again I`m nowhere ''near'' as bad as Raven. Seriously, what the hell? Someone just can't LANCB their way out of a coop and expect everything to be okay, not after how they treated us. LGM's gone, GC's gone, and I`m seriously considering leaving. Ugh, this wiki makes me ''sick''. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 20:42, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :Didn't you say you would stop attacking me? [[User:GR|GR]] ([[User talk:GR|talk]]) 20:43, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::I`m quite frankly ''disgusted'' at what is happening, Raven. Even you must acknowledge that part of the blame lies on your behalf. This shit would be funny if it were fictional, but it's really not. What has RW become? The circus? &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 20:45, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2220488&amp;oldid=2220486 [[User:GR|GR]] ([[User talk:GR|talk]]) 20:46, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::::[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Chicken_coop#Le_Vote And here we have 14 to 12 votes] for you to be permabanned, which you weaseled your way out of via pulling a coop. :::::Here's some diffs to remind you of your past: [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217083], [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:GR&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2217044], [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fascism&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2197105], [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fascism&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2197051], and let's not forget when you insulted Flandres for being fair to you, and comparing me to Putin. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 20:51, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::In fact, let's just link to [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Chicken_coop#LeftyGreenMario_is_fed_up_with_Raven LGM's detailed, and comprehensive essay] on this subject at your coop case, which, you, again, weaseled your way out of via LANCB. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 20:53, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::If you behave like this after a supposed détente, I won't vote to give you a sysop back. Not deserved. [https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki_talk:All_things_in_moderation&amp;diff=2220488&amp;oldid=2220486]{{User:GR/sig}} 20:58, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::I`m not blameless, but this shit wouldn't fly if it were me in question. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:00, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Raven, I don't want you angry, I want you ''gone''. Just go away, this site isn't the right site for you anyways. It'll be a lot easier on everyone if you go away quietly, none of this needs to happen. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:02, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::Are you trying to get rid of me? I got a lot of butthurt when I said this. {{User:GR/sig}} 21:10, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::Forget I said anything, it's not worth rehashing. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:15, 2 September 2020 (UTC) {{od}} I won't forget it. Next time you ask for sysop I will oppose it (because of this). {{User:GR/sig}} 21:24, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :I mean, you admitted to starting drama on purpose on the Discord, so.... &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 21:37, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::Since you quickly undid your promise to no longer attack me, I will no longer just accept your proposals of armistice, considering this recent breach of civility. Make your words worth anything. I will no longer entertain this subject. {{User:GR/sig}} 22:18, 2 September 2020 (UTC) == Proxy votes == Hello, everyone. I hate to bother people but Godless Raven was locked out of his account again (he apparently uses randomly generated passwords that he stores on his browser. When he deletes the stored password and removes his email information from his account, this makes it impossible for him to log back in). He desires to edit from [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/GR this account.] Now, the question is, does this account have franchise? Personally, I say yes. So long as he is only voting with a single account I don't see the issue. The spirit of the law is clearly being followed, Godless Raven meets the minimum edit count and account age requirements to be a voter in policy/penalty discussions.--[[User:Hastur|Hastur!]] ([[User talk:Hastur|talk]]) 21:39, 2 September 2020 (UTC) :I mean sure. I don’t see why not. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 22:24, 2 September 2020 (UTC) ::He just said he doesn't even want to be here, wants to leave and just wants his sysop so he can delete stuff before going away forever. Why does he need to vote then? [[User:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0070FF&quot;&gt;'''Shabi'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Shabidoo|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF007F&quot;&gt;'''DOO'''&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:16, 3 September 2020 (UTC) :::The vote is needed because he fake-LANCBed before. If he was actually leaving, then why is GR still in the Saloon?[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/GR] [[User:Bongolian|Bongolian]] ([[User talk:Bongolian|talk]]) 07:40, 3 September 2020 (UTC) ::::What's the problem here? {{User:GR/sig}} 18:39, 3 September 2020 (UTC) == So Dysk got all his rights back == And I`m still here languishing in sysoprevoke while Raven, a user who has worse conduct than me, is still a ninja and sysop even after he pulled a lancb to weasel his way out of a permaban. Great. &lt;span&gt;— [[User:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Purple&quot;&gt;'''Oxyaena'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Oxyaena|&lt;font color=&quot;Red&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Harass&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt; 15:43, 5 September 2020 (UTC) :Temporary sysoprevoke in your case I believe, you could make a vote on removing it now, or at a later point in time. {{User:Dysklyver/sig}} 15:48, 5 September 2020 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Moderator_elections/Election_booth&diff=2222711</id> <title>RationalWiki:Moderator elections/Election booth</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Moderator_elections/Election_booth&diff=2222711"/> <updated>2020-09-05T15:44:40Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: <hr /> <div>{{Modbar}} {{RationalWiki:Moderator elections/Schedule}} ==Voting system== RationalWiki uses {{wpl | single transferable vote||.}} For a primer on how to use STV, see [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8XOZJkozfI here] or [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLH_w5kHJpA here]. We're electing '''6 moderators''' ([http://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AListUsers&amp;username=&amp;group=moderator&amp;limit=250 current mods list]) &amp; '''2 alternates''' (top 2 runners-up, for use if a mod leaves). In short: the top 8 STV candidates will get mod or a shot at mod. Please note that RationalWiki does not have a completely secret ballot system. If voting fraud is suspected by election officials, ballots are opened to conduct &quot;forensic examination&quot;. ==Voting eligibility== {{EligibleVoters|1=1}} ==Candidates== {{hatnote|To be added}}{{tumbleweed}} &lt;!-- *{{u|User}} --&gt; ==Voting booth== {{Special:Election}} {{clear}} {{RationalWiki:Moderator elections/Archive}}</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Moderator_elections/Campaigning&diff=2222709</id> <title>RationalWiki:Moderator elections/Campaigning</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Moderator_elections/Campaigning&diff=2222709"/> <updated>2020-09-05T15:43:19Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: <hr /> <div>{{Modbar}} {{RationalWiki:Moderator elections/Schedule}} Please remember to keep [[RationalWiki:Moderators]] in mind when making serious proposals as to what you want to do as a Mod. Please sign your posts as normal. This is a discussion space! You can check the archives for what crazy shit people said in previous years. == Propaganda goes here == == Stuff == {{reflist}} {{clear}} {{RationalWiki:Moderator elections/Archive}}</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Moderator_elections/Nominations&diff=2222708</id> <title>RationalWiki:Moderator elections/Nominations</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Moderator_elections/Nominations&diff=2222708"/> <updated>2020-09-05T15:41:57Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: <hr /> <div>{{Modbar}} {{RationalWiki:Moderator elections/Schedule}} We will be electing '''6 moderators''' and '''2 alternates''' via {{wpl | single transferable vote||.}} The mods are the 1st-6th highest-ranked candidates of the STV vote. The alternates are the 7th and 8th highest-ranked candidates of the STV vote. __TOC__ ==Rules== {{hatnote|1: There are no rules against self nomination.}} {{hatnote|2: When nominating somebody else, it is considerate to inform them with '''{{tl|modnotice}}''' so that they don't miss the opportunity to accept the nomination.}} {{hatnote|3: Nominees should acknowledge the nomination by signing next to their name.}} {{hatnote|4: Nominees should '''''accept''''' or '''decline''' their nomination and move their name to the right section.}} {{hatnote|5: The propaganda and misinformation supplied by our candidates &lt;s&gt;for supreme leadership&lt;/s&gt; may be found '''[[RationalWiki:Moderator elections/Campaigning | here]]''', if anyone bothers to post any.}} {{hatnote|Timing note: Nominations must be accepted before midnight UTC on the closing date, this may be different to your timezone. Any nominations not accepted will be treated as &quot;presumed inactive&quot;.}} ==Nominations== :''Put nominations here in a'' &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;* {{ping|Judge Dredd}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; ''format.'' ===Accepted nominations=== ===Declined nominations=== ===Presumed inactive=== ==OpenSTV ballot readers== We would like to have '''at least 1''' non-candidate OpenSTV reader. Instructions and help on doing the task are available but a computer capable of running the program is required. * {{User|Cosmikdebris}} * {{User|Ze}} {{clear}} {{RationalWiki:Moderator elections/Archive}}</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Moderator_elections/Schedule&diff=2222707</id> <title>RationalWiki:Moderator elections/Schedule</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Moderator_elections/Schedule&diff=2222707"/> <updated>2020-09-05T15:39:16Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: <hr /> <div>&lt;div class=&quot;plainlinks&quot; style=&quot;margin: 1em auto; border: 1px solid #aaa; background-color: #f5f5f5; text-align: center; width: 400px; padding-bottom: .3em;&quot;&gt; &lt;div style=&quot;border-bottom:1px; font-size:200%; font-weight:bold;&quot;&gt;2020&lt;/div&gt; &lt;div style=&quot;border-bottom:1px; font-size:150%; font-weight:bold;&quot;&gt;[[RationalWiki:Moderator elections|Moderator election]] schedule&lt;/div&gt; &lt;hr/&gt; '''[[RationalWiki:Moderator elections/Nominations|Nominations]] and [[RationalWiki:Moderator elections/Campaigning|campaigning]] will begin:'''&lt;br/&gt; &lt;big&gt;'''02 November 2020'''&lt;/big&gt;&lt;br/&gt; '''And end:'''&lt;br/&gt; &lt;big&gt;'''23 November 2020'''&lt;/big&gt;&lt;br/&gt; &lt;hr/&gt; '''[[RationalWiki:Moderator elections/Election booth|Voting]] is closed'''&lt;br/&gt; &lt;big&gt;Starts: '''TBA'''&lt;/big&gt;&lt;br/&gt; &lt;big&gt;Ends: '''1 week after '''&lt;/big&gt;&lt;br/&gt; &lt;hr/&gt; &lt;big&gt;[[RationalWiki:Moderator elections/Results|Results]] will be announced on '''a later date'''&lt;/big&gt;&lt;br/&gt; &lt;hr/&gt; '''We will elect:'''&lt;br/&gt; &lt;big&gt;'''&lt;u&gt;6 mods, 2 alternates&lt;/u&gt;'''&lt;/big&gt; {{vte|Moderator elections/Schedule||RationalWiki}} &lt;/div&gt;&lt;noinclude&gt;[[Category:RationalWiki moderation]]&lt;/noinclude&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Grouppage-sysoprevoke&diff=2222705</id> <title>MediaWiki:Grouppage-sysoprevoke</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Grouppage-sysoprevoke&diff=2222705"/> <updated>2020-09-05T15:28:13Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: D moved page MediaWiki:Group page-sysoprevoke to MediaWiki:Grouppage-sysoprevoke without leaving a redirect <hr /> <div>RationalWiki:Sysoprevoke</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Group-sysoprevoke-member&diff=2222704</id> <title>MediaWiki:Group-sysoprevoke-member</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Group-sysoprevoke-member&diff=2222704"/> <updated>2020-09-05T15:26:01Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: Created page with &quot;Sysoprevoke&quot; <hr /> <div>Sysoprevoke</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Grouppage-sysoprevoke&diff=2222703</id> <title>MediaWiki:Grouppage-sysoprevoke</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Grouppage-sysoprevoke&diff=2222703"/> <updated>2020-09-05T15:24:27Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: Created page with &quot;RationalWiki:Sysoprevoke&quot; <hr /> <div>RationalWiki:Sysoprevoke</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Group-sysoprevoke&diff=2222702</id> <title>MediaWiki:Group-sysoprevoke</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Group-sysoprevoke&diff=2222702"/> <updated>2020-09-05T15:23:16Z</updated> <summary type="html">D: Created page with &quot;Sysoprevoke&quot; <hr /> <div>Sysoprevoke</div></summary> <author><name>D</name></author> </entry> </feed>