CINXE.COM

<!DOCTYPE html> <html class="client-nojs vector-feature-language-in-header-enabled vector-feature-language-in-main-page-header-disabled vector-feature-sticky-header-disabled vector-feature-page-tools-pinned-disabled vector-feature-toc-pinned-clientpref-1 vector-feature-main-menu-pinned-disabled vector-feature-limited-width-clientpref-1 vector-feature-limited-width-content-enabled vector-feature-custom-font-size-clientpref-1 vector-feature-appearance-pinned-clientpref-1 vector-feature-night-mode-enabled skin-theme-clientpref-day vector-toc-available" lang="la" dir="ltr"> <head> <meta charset="UTF-8"> <title>Disputatio:Atheismus - Vicipaedia</title> <script>(function(){var className="client-js vector-feature-language-in-header-enabled vector-feature-language-in-main-page-header-disabled vector-feature-sticky-header-disabled vector-feature-page-tools-pinned-disabled vector-feature-toc-pinned-clientpref-1 vector-feature-main-menu-pinned-disabled vector-feature-limited-width-clientpref-1 vector-feature-limited-width-content-enabled vector-feature-custom-font-size-clientpref-1 vector-feature-appearance-pinned-clientpref-1 vector-feature-night-mode-enabled skin-theme-clientpref-day vector-toc-available";var cookie=document.cookie.match(/(?:^|; )lawikimwclientpreferences=([^;]+)/);if(cookie){cookie[1].split('%2C').forEach(function(pref){className=className.replace(new RegExp('(^| )'+pref.replace(/-clientpref-\w+$|[^\w-]+/g,'')+'-clientpref-\\w+( |$)'),'$1'+pref+'$2');});}document.documentElement.className=className;}());RLCONF={"wgBreakFrames":false,"wgSeparatorTransformTable":[",\t."," \t."],"wgDigitTransformTable":["",""], "wgDefaultDateFormat":"dmy","wgMonthNames":["","Ianuarius","Februarius","Martius","Aprilis","Maius","Iunius","Iulius","Augustus","September","October","November","December"],"wgRequestId":"ff95d618-63f6-4793-b8fc-22fb4ac0ef41","wgCanonicalNamespace":"Talk","wgCanonicalSpecialPageName":false,"wgNamespaceNumber":1,"wgPageName":"Disputatio:Atheismus","wgTitle":"Atheismus","wgCurRevisionId":544616,"wgRevisionId":544616,"wgArticleId":23927,"wgIsArticle":true,"wgIsRedirect":false,"wgAction":"view","wgUserName":null,"wgUserGroups":["*"],"wgCategories":[],"wgPageViewLanguage":"la","wgPageContentLanguage":"la","wgPageContentModel":"wikitext","wgRelevantPageName":"Disputatio:Atheismus","wgRelevantArticleId":23927,"wgIsProbablyEditable":true,"wgRelevantPageIsProbablyEditable":true,"wgRestrictionEdit":[],"wgRestrictionMove":[],"wgNoticeProject":"wikipedia","wgCiteReferencePreviewsActive":false,"wgMediaViewerOnClick":true,"wgMediaViewerEnabledByDefault":true,"wgPopupsFlags":0,"wgVisualEditor":{ "pageLanguageCode":"la","pageLanguageDir":"ltr","pageVariantFallbacks":"la"},"wgMFDisplayWikibaseDescriptions":{"search":true,"watchlist":true,"tagline":true,"nearby":true},"wgWMESchemaEditAttemptStepOversample":false,"wgWMEPageLength":20000,"wgRelatedArticlesCompat":[],"wgCentralAuthMobileDomain":false,"wgEditSubmitButtonLabelPublish":true,"wgDiscussionToolsFeaturesEnabled":{"replytool":true,"newtopictool":true,"sourcemodetoolbar":true,"topicsubscription":false,"autotopicsub":false,"visualenhancements":false,"visualenhancements_reply":false,"visualenhancements_pageframe":false},"wgDiscussionToolsFallbackEditMode":"visual","wgULSPosition":"interlanguage","wgULSisCompactLinksEnabled":false,"wgVector2022LanguageInHeader":true,"wgULSisLanguageSelectorEmpty":true,"wgCheckUserClientHintsHeadersJsApi":["brands","architecture","bitness","fullVersionList","mobile","model","platform","platformVersion"],"GEHomepageSuggestedEditsEnableTopics":true,"wgGETopicsMatchModeEnabled":false, "wgGEStructuredTaskRejectionReasonTextInputEnabled":false,"wgGELevelingUpEnabledForUser":false};RLSTATE={"ext.globalCssJs.user.styles":"ready","site.styles":"ready","user.styles":"ready","ext.globalCssJs.user":"ready","user":"ready","user.options":"loading","ext.discussionTools.init.styles":"ready","oojs-ui-core.styles":"ready","oojs-ui.styles.indicators":"ready","mediawiki.widgets.styles":"ready","oojs-ui-core.icons":"ready","skins.vector.search.codex.styles":"ready","skins.vector.styles":"ready","skins.vector.icons":"ready","ext.wikimediamessages.styles":"ready","ext.visualEditor.desktopArticleTarget.noscript":"ready","ext.uls.interlanguage":"ready","ext.wikimediaBadges":"ready"};RLPAGEMODULES=["site","mediawiki.page.ready","skins.vector.js","ext.centralNotice.geoIP","ext.centralNotice.startUp","ext.gadget.ReferenceTooltips","ext.urlShortener.toolbar","ext.centralauth.centralautologin","ext.popups","ext.visualEditor.desktopArticleTarget.init","ext.visualEditor.targetLoader", "ext.echo.centralauth","ext.discussionTools.init","ext.eventLogging","ext.wikimediaEvents","ext.navigationTiming","ext.uls.interface","ext.cx.eventlogging.campaigns","ext.checkUser.clientHints","ext.growthExperiments.SuggestedEditSession"];</script> <script>(RLQ=window.RLQ||[]).push(function(){mw.loader.impl(function(){return["user.options@12s5i",function($,jQuery,require,module){mw.user.tokens.set({"patrolToken":"+\\","watchToken":"+\\","csrfToken":"+\\"}); }];});});</script> <link rel="stylesheet" href="/w/load.php?lang=la&modules=ext.discussionTools.init.styles%7Cext.uls.interlanguage%7Cext.visualEditor.desktopArticleTarget.noscript%7Cext.wikimediaBadges%7Cext.wikimediamessages.styles%7Cmediawiki.widgets.styles%7Coojs-ui-core.icons%2Cstyles%7Coojs-ui.styles.indicators%7Cskins.vector.icons%2Cstyles%7Cskins.vector.search.codex.styles&only=styles&skin=vector-2022"> <script async="" src="/w/load.php?lang=la&modules=startup&only=scripts&raw=1&skin=vector-2022"></script> <meta name="ResourceLoaderDynamicStyles" content=""> <link rel="stylesheet" href="/w/load.php?lang=la&modules=site.styles&only=styles&skin=vector-2022"> <meta name="generator" content="MediaWiki 1.44.0-wmf.4"> <meta name="referrer" content="origin"> <meta name="referrer" content="origin-when-cross-origin"> <meta name="robots" content="max-image-preview:standard"> <meta name="format-detection" content="telephone=no"> <meta name="viewport" content="width=1120"> <meta property="og:title" content="Disputatio:Atheismus - Vicipaedia"> <meta property="og:type" content="website"> <link rel="alternate" media="only screen and (max-width: 640px)" href="//la.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus"> <link rel="alternate" type="application/x-wiki" title="Recensere" href="/w/index.php?title=Disputatio:Atheismus&action=edit"> <link rel="apple-touch-icon" href="/static/apple-touch/wikipedia.png"> <link rel="icon" href="/static/favicon/wikipedia.ico"> <link rel="search" type="application/opensearchdescription+xml" href="/w/rest.php/v1/search" title="Vicipaedia (la)"> <link rel="EditURI" type="application/rsd+xml" href="//la.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=rsd"> <link rel="canonical" href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus"> <link rel="license" href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/deed.la"> <link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml" title="Vicipaedia Fluxus Atom" href="/w/index.php?title=Specialis:Nuper_mutata&feed=atom"> <link rel="dns-prefetch" href="//meta.wikimedia.org" /> <link rel="dns-prefetch" href="//login.wikimedia.org"> </head> <body class="ext-discussiontools-replytool-enabled ext-discussiontools-newtopictool-enabled ext-discussiontools-sourcemodetoolbar-enabled skin--responsive skin-vector skin-vector-search-vue mediawiki ltr sitedir-ltr mw-hide-empty-elt ns-1 ns-talk mw-editable page-Disputatio_Atheismus rootpage-Disputatio_Atheismus skin-vector-2022 action-view"><a class="mw-jump-link" href="#bodyContent">Jump to content</a> <div class="vector-header-container"> <header class="vector-header mw-header"> <div class="vector-header-start"> <nav class="vector-main-menu-landmark" aria-label="Site"> <div id="vector-main-menu-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown vector-main-menu-dropdown vector-button-flush-left vector-button-flush-right" > <input type="checkbox" id="vector-main-menu-dropdown-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-vector-main-menu-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox " aria-label="Main menu" > <label id="vector-main-menu-dropdown-label" for="vector-main-menu-dropdown-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only " aria-hidden="true" ><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-menu mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-menu"></span> <span class="vector-dropdown-label-text">Main menu</span> </label> <div class="vector-dropdown-content"> <div id="vector-main-menu-unpinned-container" class="vector-unpinned-container"> <div id="vector-main-menu" class="vector-main-menu vector-pinnable-element"> <div class="vector-pinnable-header vector-main-menu-pinnable-header vector-pinnable-header-unpinned" data-feature-name="main-menu-pinned" data-pinnable-element-id="vector-main-menu" data-pinned-container-id="vector-main-menu-pinned-container" data-unpinned-container-id="vector-main-menu-unpinned-container" > <div class="vector-pinnable-header-label">Main menu</div> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-pin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-main-menu.pin">move to sidebar</button> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-unpin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-main-menu.unpin">hide</button> </div> <div id="p-navigation" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-navigation" > <div class="vector-menu-heading"> Navigatio </div> <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="n-mainpage-description" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Vicipaedia:Pagina_prima" title="Ire ad paginam primam [z]" accesskey="z"><span>Pagina prima</span></a></li><li id="n-currentevents" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Vicipaedia:Novissima" title="Eventus novissimi"><span>Novissima</span></a></li><li id="n-randompage" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Specialis:Pagina_fortuita" title="Ire ad paginam fortuitam [x]" accesskey="x"><span>Pagina fortuita</span></a></li><li id="n-categories" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Categoria:Omnia"><span>Categoriae</span></a></li><li id="n-recentchanges" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Specialis:Nuper_mutata" title="Index nuper mutatorum in hac vici [r]" accesskey="r"><span>Nuper mutata</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="p-communitas" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-communitas" > <div class="vector-menu-heading"> Communitas </div> <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="n-Invitatio" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Vicipaedia:Invitatio"><span>Invitatio</span></a></li><li id="n-Taberna" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Vicipaedia:Taberna"><span>Taberna</span></a></li><li id="n-help" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Vicipaedia:Praefatio" title="Adiumentum ad hoc incepto utendum"><span>Auxilium</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </nav> <a href="/wiki/Vicipaedia:Pagina_prima" class="mw-logo"> <img class="mw-logo-icon" src="/static/images/icons/wikipedia.png" alt="" aria-hidden="true" height="50" width="50"> <span class="mw-logo-container skin-invert"> <img class="mw-logo-wordmark" alt="Vicipaedia" src="/static/images/mobile/copyright/wikipedia-wordmark-la.svg" style="width: 7.5em; height: 1.25em;"> <img class="mw-logo-tagline" alt="Libera encyclopaedia" src="/static/images/mobile/copyright/wikipedia-tagline-la.svg" width="120" height="14" style="width: 7.5em; height: 0.875em;"> </span> </a> </div> <div class="vector-header-end"> <div id="p-search" role="search" class="vector-search-box-vue vector-search-box-collapses vector-search-box-show-thumbnail vector-search-box-auto-expand-width vector-search-box"> <a href="/wiki/Specialis:Quaerere" class="cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only search-toggle" title="Quaerere apud Vicipaediam [f]" accesskey="f"><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-search mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-search"></span> <span>Quaerere</span> </a> <div class="vector-typeahead-search-container"> <div class="cdx-typeahead-search cdx-typeahead-search--show-thumbnail cdx-typeahead-search--auto-expand-width"> <form action="/w/index.php" id="searchform" class="cdx-search-input cdx-search-input--has-end-button"> <div id="simpleSearch" class="cdx-search-input__input-wrapper" data-search-loc="header-moved"> <div class="cdx-text-input cdx-text-input--has-start-icon"> <input class="cdx-text-input__input" type="search" name="search" placeholder="Quaerere apud Vicipaediam" aria-label="Quaerere apud Vicipaediam" autocapitalize="sentences" title="Quaerere apud Vicipaediam [f]" accesskey="f" id="searchInput" > <span class="cdx-text-input__icon cdx-text-input__start-icon"></span> </div> <input type="hidden" name="title" value="Specialis:Quaerere"> </div> <button class="cdx-button cdx-search-input__end-button">Quaerere</button> </form> </div> </div> </div> <nav class="vector-user-links vector-user-links-wide" aria-label="Instrumenta personalia"> <div class="vector-user-links-main"> <div id="p-vector-user-menu-preferences" class="vector-menu mw-portlet emptyPortlet" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="p-vector-user-menu-userpage" class="vector-menu mw-portlet emptyPortlet" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> </ul> </div> </div> <nav class="vector-appearance-landmark" aria-label="Appearance"> <div id="vector-appearance-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown " title="Change the appearance of the page's font size, width, and color" > <input type="checkbox" id="vector-appearance-dropdown-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-vector-appearance-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox " aria-label="Appearance" > <label id="vector-appearance-dropdown-label" for="vector-appearance-dropdown-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only " aria-hidden="true" ><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-appearance mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-appearance"></span> <span class="vector-dropdown-label-text">Appearance</span> </label> <div class="vector-dropdown-content"> <div id="vector-appearance-unpinned-container" class="vector-unpinned-container"> </div> </div> </div> </nav> <div id="p-vector-user-menu-notifications" class="vector-menu mw-portlet emptyPortlet" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="p-vector-user-menu-overflow" class="vector-menu mw-portlet" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="pt-sitesupport-2" class="user-links-collapsible-item mw-list-item user-links-collapsible-item"><a data-mw="interface" href="//donate.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:FundraiserRedirector?utm_source=donate&utm_medium=sidebar&utm_campaign=C13_la.wikipedia.org&uselang=la" class=""><span>Donationes</span></a> </li> <li id="pt-createaccount-2" class="user-links-collapsible-item mw-list-item user-links-collapsible-item"><a data-mw="interface" href="/w/index.php?title=Specialis:Rationem_creare&returnto=Disputatio%3AAtheismus" title="Suademus, ut nomen tibi imponas, neque cogeris" class=""><span>Sibi nomen imponere</span></a> </li> <li id="pt-login-2" class="user-links-collapsible-item mw-list-item user-links-collapsible-item"><a data-mw="interface" href="/w/index.php?title=Specialis:Conventum_aperire&returnto=Disputatio%3AAtheismus" title="Te nomen dare hortamur neque cogimus [o]" accesskey="o" class=""><span>Nomen dare</span></a> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </div> <div id="vector-user-links-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown vector-user-menu vector-button-flush-right vector-user-menu-logged-out" title="More options" > <input type="checkbox" id="vector-user-links-dropdown-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-vector-user-links-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox " aria-label="Instrumenta personalia" > <label id="vector-user-links-dropdown-label" for="vector-user-links-dropdown-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only " aria-hidden="true" ><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-ellipsis mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-ellipsis"></span> <span class="vector-dropdown-label-text">Instrumenta personalia</span> </label> <div class="vector-dropdown-content"> <div id="p-personal" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-personal user-links-collapsible-item" title="User menu" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="pt-sitesupport" class="user-links-collapsible-item mw-list-item"><a href="//donate.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:FundraiserRedirector?utm_source=donate&utm_medium=sidebar&utm_campaign=C13_la.wikipedia.org&uselang=la"><span>Donationes</span></a></li><li id="pt-createaccount" class="user-links-collapsible-item mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Specialis:Rationem_creare&returnto=Disputatio%3AAtheismus" title="Suademus, ut nomen tibi imponas, neque cogeris"><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-userAdd mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-userAdd"></span> <span>Sibi nomen imponere</span></a></li><li id="pt-login" class="user-links-collapsible-item mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Specialis:Conventum_aperire&returnto=Disputatio%3AAtheismus" title="Te nomen dare hortamur neque cogimus [o]" accesskey="o"><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-logIn mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-logIn"></span> <span>Nomen dare</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="p-user-menu-anon-editor" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-user-menu-anon-editor" > <div class="vector-menu-heading"> Pages for logged out editors <a href="/wiki/Auxilium:Introduction" aria-label="Learn more about editing"><span>learn more</span></a> </div> <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="pt-anoncontribs" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Specialis:Conlationes_meae" title="Ostendit recensiones ex hoc loco IP factas [y]" accesskey="y"><span>Conlationes</span></a></li><li id="pt-anontalk" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Specialis:Disputatio_mea" title="Disputatio de recensionibus ex hoc loco IP factis [n]" accesskey="n"><span>Disputatio huius IP</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> </div> </div> </nav> </div> </header> </div> <div class="mw-page-container"> <div class="mw-page-container-inner"> <div class="vector-sitenotice-container"> <div id="siteNotice"></div> </div> <div class="vector-column-start"> <div class="vector-main-menu-container"> <div id="mw-navigation"> <nav id="mw-panel" class="vector-main-menu-landmark" aria-label="Site"> <div id="vector-main-menu-pinned-container" class="vector-pinned-container"> </div> </nav> </div> </div> <div class="vector-sticky-pinned-container"> <nav id="mw-panel-toc" aria-label="Index" data-event-name="ui.sidebar-toc" class="mw-table-of-contents-container vector-toc-landmark"> <div id="vector-toc-pinned-container" class="vector-pinned-container"> <div id="vector-toc" class="vector-toc vector-pinnable-element"> <div class="vector-pinnable-header vector-toc-pinnable-header vector-pinnable-header-pinned" data-feature-name="toc-pinned" data-pinnable-element-id="vector-toc" > <h2 class="vector-pinnable-header-label">Index</h2> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-pin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-toc.pin">move to sidebar</button> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-unpin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-toc.unpin">hide</button> </div> <ul class="vector-toc-contents" id="mw-panel-toc-list"> <li id="toc-mw-content-text" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a href="#" class="vector-toc-link"> <div class="vector-toc-text">Initium</div> </a> </li> <li id="toc-Atheus_aut_Atheista" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Atheus_aut_Atheista"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">1</span> <span>Atheus aut Atheista</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">8 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Atheus_aut_Atheista-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Credere" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Credere"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">2</span> <span>Credere</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">12 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Credere-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-re_atheism" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#re_atheism"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">3</span> <span>re atheism</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">15 comments</span> <ul id="toc-re_atheism-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </nav> </div> </div> <div class="mw-content-container"> <main id="content" class="mw-body"> <header class="mw-body-header vector-page-titlebar"> <nav aria-label="Index" class="vector-toc-landmark"> <div id="vector-page-titlebar-toc" class="vector-dropdown vector-page-titlebar-toc vector-button-flush-left" > <input type="checkbox" id="vector-page-titlebar-toc-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-vector-page-titlebar-toc" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox " aria-label="Toggle the table of contents" > <label id="vector-page-titlebar-toc-label" for="vector-page-titlebar-toc-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only " aria-hidden="true" ><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-listBullet mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-listBullet"></span> <span class="vector-dropdown-label-text">Toggle the table of contents</span> </label> <div class="vector-dropdown-content"> <div id="vector-page-titlebar-toc-unpinned-container" class="vector-unpinned-container"> </div> </div> </div> </nav> <h1 id="firstHeading" class="firstHeading mw-first-heading"><span class="mw-page-title-namespace">Disputatio</span><span class="mw-page-title-separator">:</span><span class="mw-page-title-main">Atheismus</span></h1> <div id="p-lang-btn" class="vector-dropdown mw-portlet mw-portlet-lang mw-portlet-lang-icon-only" > <input type="checkbox" id="p-lang-btn-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-p-lang-btn" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox mw-interlanguage-selector-empty" aria-label="This article exist only in this language. Add the article for other languages" > <label id="p-lang-btn-label" for="p-lang-btn-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only mw-portlet-lang-heading-empty" aria-hidden="true" ><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-language mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-language"></span> <span class="vector-dropdown-label-text">Add languages</span> </label> <div class="vector-dropdown-content"> <div class="mw-portlet-empty-language-selector-body"> Page contents not supported in other languages. </div> </div> </div> </header> <div class="vector-page-toolbar"> <div class="vector-page-toolbar-container"> <div id="left-navigation"> <nav aria-label="Spatia nominalia"> <div id="p-associated-pages" class="vector-menu vector-menu-tabs mw-portlet mw-portlet-associated-pages" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="ca-nstab-main" class="vector-tab-noicon mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Atheismus" title="Videre paginam [c]" accesskey="c"><span>Res</span></a></li><li id="ca-talk" class="selected vector-tab-noicon mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus" rel="discussion" title="Disputatio de hac pagina [t]" accesskey="t"><span>Disputatio</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="vector-variants-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown emptyPortlet" > <input type="checkbox" id="vector-variants-dropdown-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-vector-variants-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox " aria-label="Change language variant" > <label id="vector-variants-dropdown-label" for="vector-variants-dropdown-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet" aria-hidden="true" ><span class="vector-dropdown-label-text">Latina</span> </label> <div class="vector-dropdown-content"> <div id="p-variants" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-variants emptyPortlet" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> </ul> </div> </div> </div> </div> </nav> </div> <div id="right-navigation" class="vector-collapsible"> <nav aria-label="Visae"> <div id="p-views" class="vector-menu vector-menu-tabs mw-portlet mw-portlet-views" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="ca-view" class="selected vector-tab-noicon mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus"><span>Legere</span></a></li><li id="ca-edit" class="istalk vector-tab-noicon mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Disputatio:Atheismus&action=edit" title="Fontem huius paginae recensere [e]" accesskey="e"><span>Fontem recensere</span></a></li><li id="ca-addsection" class="vector-tab-noicon mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Disputatio:Atheismus&action=edit&section=new" title="Novam partem creare [+]" accesskey="+"><span>Partem novam addere</span></a></li><li id="ca-history" class="vector-tab-noicon mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Disputatio:Atheismus&action=history" title="Superiores huius paginae versiones [h]" accesskey="h"><span>Historiam inspicere</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> </nav> <nav class="vector-page-tools-landmark" aria-label="Page tools"> <div id="vector-page-tools-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown vector-page-tools-dropdown" > <input type="checkbox" id="vector-page-tools-dropdown-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-vector-page-tools-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox " aria-label="Instrumenta" > <label id="vector-page-tools-dropdown-label" for="vector-page-tools-dropdown-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet" aria-hidden="true" ><span class="vector-dropdown-label-text">Instrumenta</span> </label> <div class="vector-dropdown-content"> <div id="vector-page-tools-unpinned-container" class="vector-unpinned-container"> <div id="vector-page-tools" class="vector-page-tools vector-pinnable-element"> <div class="vector-pinnable-header vector-page-tools-pinnable-header vector-pinnable-header-unpinned" data-feature-name="page-tools-pinned" data-pinnable-element-id="vector-page-tools" data-pinned-container-id="vector-page-tools-pinned-container" data-unpinned-container-id="vector-page-tools-unpinned-container" > <div class="vector-pinnable-header-label">Tools</div> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-pin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-page-tools.pin">move to sidebar</button> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-unpin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-page-tools.unpin">hide</button> </div> <div id="p-cactions" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-cactions emptyPortlet vector-has-collapsible-items" title="More options" > <div class="vector-menu-heading"> Actions </div> <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="ca-more-view" class="selected vector-more-collapsible-item mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus"><span>Legere</span></a></li><li id="ca-more-edit" class="istalk vector-more-collapsible-item mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Disputatio:Atheismus&action=edit" title="Fontem huius paginae recensere [e]" accesskey="e"><span>Fontem recensere</span></a></li><li id="ca-more-addsection" class="vector-more-collapsible-item mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Disputatio:Atheismus&action=edit&section=new"><span>Partem novam addere</span></a></li><li id="ca-more-history" class="vector-more-collapsible-item mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Disputatio:Atheismus&action=history"><span>Historiam inspicere</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="p-tb" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-tb" > <div class="vector-menu-heading"> General </div> <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="t-whatlinkshere" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Specialis:Nexus_ad_paginam/Disputatio:Atheismus" title="Index paginarum quae hic nectunt [j]" accesskey="j"><span>Nexus ad paginam</span></a></li><li id="t-recentchangeslinked" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Specialis:Nuper_mutata_annexorum/Disputatio:Atheismus" rel="nofollow" title="Nuper mutata in paginis quibus haec pagina nectit [k]" accesskey="k"><span>Nuper mutata annexorum</span></a></li><li id="t-upload" class="mw-list-item"><a href="//commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:UploadWizard?uselang=la" title="Fasciculos imponere [u]" accesskey="u"><span>Fasciculum imponere</span></a></li><li id="t-specialpages" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Specialis:Paginae_speciales" title="Index paginarum specialium [q]" accesskey="q"><span>Paginae speciales</span></a></li><li id="t-permalink" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Disputatio:Atheismus&oldid=544616" title="Nexus perpetuus ad hanc paginae redactionem"><span>Nexus perpetuus</span></a></li><li id="t-info" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Disputatio:Atheismus&action=info" title="More information about this page"><span>De hac pagina</span></a></li><li id="t-urlshortener" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Specialis:UrlShortener&url=https%3A%2F%2Fla.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FDisputatio%3AAtheismus"><span>Get shortened URL</span></a></li><li id="t-urlshortener-qrcode" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Specialis:QrCode&url=https%3A%2F%2Fla.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FDisputatio%3AAtheismus"><span>Download QR code</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="p-coll-print_export" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-coll-print_export" > <div class="vector-menu-heading"> Imprimere vel exportare </div> <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="coll-create_a_book" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Specialis:Book&bookcmd=book_creator&referer=Disputatio%3AAtheismus"><span>Librum creare</span></a></li><li id="coll-download-as-rl" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Specialis:DownloadAsPdf&page=Disputatio%3AAtheismus&action=show-download-screen"><span>Paginam prehendere formá PDF</span></a></li><li id="t-print" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Disputatio:Atheismus&printable=yes" title="Forma impressibilis huius paginae [p]" accesskey="p"><span>Forma impressibilis</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="p-wikibase-otherprojects" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-wikibase-otherprojects emptyPortlet" > <div class="vector-menu-heading"> Inceptis aliis </div> <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> </ul> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </nav> </div> </div> </div> <div class="vector-column-end"> <div class="vector-sticky-pinned-container"> <nav class="vector-page-tools-landmark" aria-label="Page tools"> <div id="vector-page-tools-pinned-container" class="vector-pinned-container"> </div> </nav> <nav class="vector-appearance-landmark" aria-label="Appearance"> <div id="vector-appearance-pinned-container" class="vector-pinned-container"> <div id="vector-appearance" class="vector-appearance vector-pinnable-element"> <div class="vector-pinnable-header vector-appearance-pinnable-header vector-pinnable-header-pinned" data-feature-name="appearance-pinned" data-pinnable-element-id="vector-appearance" data-pinned-container-id="vector-appearance-pinned-container" data-unpinned-container-id="vector-appearance-unpinned-container" > <div class="vector-pinnable-header-label">Appearance</div> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-pin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-appearance.pin">move to sidebar</button> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-unpin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-appearance.unpin">hide</button> </div> </div> </div> </nav> </div> </div> <div id="bodyContent" class="vector-body" aria-labelledby="firstHeading" data-mw-ve-target-container> <div class="vector-body-before-content"> <div class="mw-indicators"> </div> <div id="siteSub" class="noprint">E Vicipaedia</div> </div> <div id="contentSub"><div id="mw-content-subtitle"></div></div> <div id="mw-content-text" class="mw-body-content"><div class="mw-content-ltr mw-parser-output" lang="la" dir="ltr"><span data-mw-thread-id="h--2007-01-14T01:28:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h--2007-01-14T01:28:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="h--2007-01-14T01:28:00.000Z"></span></span><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2007-01-14T01:28:00.000Z"></span>I thought that Richard Dawkins would be a more appropriate example than Marx, since he is famous <i>because</i> of his atheistic views (not to mention avoiding the implicit <i>argumentum ad communismum</i> created by the use of a "Godless Commie"). <a href="/wiki/Usor:LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs" title="Usor:LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs">LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2007-01-14T01:28:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:28, 14 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2007-01-14T01:28:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2007-01-14T01:28:00.000Z"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Alexanderr-2007-02-05T16:45:00.000Z-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2007-01-14T01:28:00.000Z"></span>Is ...non...nullum a double negative? <a href="/wiki/Usor:Alexanderr" title="Usor:Alexanderr">Alexanderr</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Alexanderr-2007-02-05T16:45:00.000Z-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2007-01-14T01:28:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:45, 5 Februarii 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Alexanderr-2007-02-05T16:45:00.000Z-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2007-01-14T01:28:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Alexanderr-2007-02-05T16:45:00.000Z-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2007-01-14T01:28:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ioshus_Rocchio-2007-02-05T17:08:00.000Z-Alexanderr-2007-02-05T16:45:00.000Z"></span>Yes. And double negatives are preferred in latin...one of the few grammatical concepts that english hasnt stolen.--<a href="/wiki/Usor:Ioshus_Rocchio" class="mw-redirect" title="Usor:Ioshus Rocchio">Ioshus</a> <small><sup><a href="/wiki/Disputatio_Usoris:Ioshus_Rocchio" class="mw-redirect" title="Disputatio Usoris:Ioshus Rocchio">(disp)</a></sup></small> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Ioshus_Rocchio-2007-02-05T17:08:00.000Z-Alexanderr-2007-02-05T16:45:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:08, 5 Februarii 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ioshus_Rocchio-2007-02-05T17:08:00.000Z-Alexanderr-2007-02-05T16:45:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ioshus_Rocchio-2007-02-05T17:08:00.000Z-Alexanderr-2007-02-05T16:45:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Iustinus-2007-02-05T19:09:00.000Z-Ioshus_Rocchio-2007-02-05T17:08:00.000Z"></span>Josh, I think you may have Greek in mind. Greek does prefer double negatives, ut Latin does not. In Latin the normally expression would be <i>in nullum deum credere</i> or <i>in ullum deum non credere</i>. <i>In nullum deum non credere</i> would mean "to believe in every god", and <i>non in nullum deum credere</i> would be "to believe in several gods." Either way, not a good definition of atheism! --<a href="/wiki/Usor:Iustinus" title="Usor:Iustinus">Iustinus</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Iustinus-2007-02-05T19:09:00.000Z-Ioshus_Rocchio-2007-02-05T17:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:09, 5 Februarii 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Iustinus-2007-02-05T19:09:00.000Z-Ioshus_Rocchio-2007-02-05T17:08:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Iustinus-2007-02-05T19:09:00.000Z-Ioshus_Rocchio-2007-02-05T17:08:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ioshus_Rocchio-2007-02-05T19:24:00.000Z-Iustinus-2007-02-05T19:09:00.000Z"></span>I'm extremely confused, I confess... I'm at school (work, not university) so I don't have my books. But this goes against what I have read and been taught...maybe I needed to qualify that with a "sometimes" prefers double negatives? :</dd> <dd>1) "Natavisti?"</dd> <dd>2) "Nunc non natavi."</dd> <dd>This is not correct?--<a href="/wiki/Usor:Ioshus_Rocchio" class="mw-redirect" title="Usor:Ioshus Rocchio">Ioshus</a> <small><sup><a href="/wiki/Disputatio_Usoris:Ioshus_Rocchio" class="mw-redirect" title="Disputatio Usoris:Ioshus Rocchio">(disp)</a></sup></small> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Ioshus_Rocchio-2007-02-05T19:24:00.000Z-Iustinus-2007-02-05T19:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:24, 5 Februarii 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ioshus_Rocchio-2007-02-05T19:24:00.000Z-Iustinus-2007-02-05T19:09:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ioshus_Rocchio-2007-02-05T19:24:00.000Z-Iustinus-2007-02-05T19:09:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Iustinus-2007-02-05T19:28:00.000Z-Ioshus_Rocchio-2007-02-05T19:24:00.000Z"></span>Erm... it is correct, but it's not a double negative. Are you thinking of Spanish <i>nunca</i>? <i>Numquam non natavi</i> would still mean "I have always swam," litotes not double-negative. Too many late nights on Wikipedia, I'm thinkinig ;) --<a href="/wiki/Usor:Iustinus" title="Usor:Iustinus">Iustinus</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Iustinus-2007-02-05T19:28:00.000Z-Ioshus_Rocchio-2007-02-05T19:24:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:28, 5 Februarii 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Iustinus-2007-02-05T19:28:00.000Z-Ioshus_Rocchio-2007-02-05T19:24:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Iustinus-2007-02-05T19:28:00.000Z-Ioshus_Rocchio-2007-02-05T19:24:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-IacobusAmor-2008-04-24T12:42:00.000Z-Iustinus-2007-02-05T19:28:00.000Z"></span>"I have always swum." <i>Swim, swam, swum.</i> ;) <a href="/wiki/Usor:IacobusAmor" title="Usor:IacobusAmor">IacobusAmor</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-IacobusAmor-2008-04-24T12:42:00.000Z-Iustinus-2007-02-05T19:28:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:42, 24 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-IacobusAmor-2008-04-24T12:42:00.000Z-Iustinus-2007-02-05T19:28:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-IacobusAmor-2008-04-24T12:42:00.000Z-Iustinus-2007-02-05T19:28:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ioshus_Rocchio-2007-02-05T19:54:00.000Z-Iustinus-2007-02-05T19:28:00.000Z"></span>Of course I'm thinking of <i>nunca</i>...I have never been able to deal with that false cognate... I retire to finish up my day and then go home and scour grammar books. Will report later...--<a href="/wiki/Usor:Ioshus_Rocchio" class="mw-redirect" title="Usor:Ioshus Rocchio">Ioshus</a> <small><sup><a href="/wiki/Disputatio_Usoris:Ioshus_Rocchio" class="mw-redirect" title="Disputatio Usoris:Ioshus Rocchio">(disp)</a></sup></small> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Ioshus_Rocchio-2007-02-05T19:54:00.000Z-Iustinus-2007-02-05T19:28:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:54, 5 Februarii 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ioshus_Rocchio-2007-02-05T19:54:00.000Z-Iustinus-2007-02-05T19:28:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ioshus_Rocchio-2007-02-05T19:54:00.000Z-Iustinus-2007-02-05T19:28:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Atheus_aut_Atheista" data-mw-thread-id="h-Atheus_aut_Atheista-2008-04-23T23:11:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Atheus_aut_Atheista-2008-04-23T23:11:00.000Z"></span>Atheus aut Atheista<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Atheus_aut_Atheista-2008-04-23T23:11:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Disputatio:Atheismus&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section's source code: Atheus aut Atheista"><span>fontem recensere</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-23T23:11:00.000Z-Atheus_aut_Atheista"></span>De setentia:"Qui deos nec bonos nec malos dicit esse appellatur atheus, sectator autem atheismi atheista vocatur." vere dubito quia sic dixit Words: </p> <pre>atheus, athei N (2nd) M [XEXES] uncommon atheist, one who does not believe in God; (as nickname); atheista, atheistae N (1st) M [GEXEK] NeoLatin uncommon atheistic; </pre> <p>et vide Hofmann <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://www.uni-mannheim.de/mateo/camenaref/hofmann/a/books/a_9496.html">http://www.uni-mannheim.de/mateo/camenaref/hofmann/a/books/a_9496.html</a> --<a href="/wiki/Usor:Rafaelgarcia" title="Usor:Rafaelgarcia">Rafaelgarcia</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-23T23:11:00.000Z-Atheus_aut_Atheista" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:11, 23 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-23T23:11:00.000Z-Atheus_aut_Atheista"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-23T23:11:00.000Z-Atheus_aut_Atheista"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Neander-2008-04-24T00:33:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-23T23:11:00.000Z"></span>Quomodo igitur dicere velis sententiam de quo loquimur? "Atheista", etiam secundum Word, nomen substantivum esse videtur. Unde igitur glossa "atheistic", etsi "atheist" dici debeat? Scio apud antiquos Christianos "atheum/atheon" nomen fuisse invectivum uni praesertim homini datum. Equidem hoc vocabulo repudiato malim dicere: "Qui deos nec bonos nec malos docet esse appellatur "atheista". --<a href="/wiki/Usor:Neander" title="Usor:Neander">Neander</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Neander-2008-04-24T00:33:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-23T23:11:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:33, 24 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Neander-2008-04-24T00:33:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-23T23:11:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Neander-2008-04-24T00:33:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-23T23:11:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-24T00:47:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-24T00:33:00.000Z"></span>Apparuit mihi quod athiesta et atheus idem dicunt.--<a href="/wiki/Usor:Rafaelgarcia" title="Usor:Rafaelgarcia">Rafaelgarcia</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-24T00:47:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-24T00:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:47, 24 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-24T00:47:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-24T00:33:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-24T00:47:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-24T00:33:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-24T12:38:00.000Z-Atheus_aut_Atheista"></span>Versio recens: "Quisquis deos nec bonos nec malos docet esse appellatur "atheista"." ->"Whoever teaches that the gods are neither good or bad ar called <i>atheista</i>."? Quid? Nonne melius fuerat: "Quisquis nullum deum exstare credunt dicitur atheus vel atheista."--<a href="/wiki/Usor:Rafaelgarcia" title="Usor:Rafaelgarcia">Rafaelgarcia</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-24T12:38:00.000Z-Atheus_aut_Atheista" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:38, 24 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-24T12:38:00.000Z-Atheus_aut_Atheista"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-24T12:38:00.000Z-Atheus_aut_Atheista"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mycēs-2008-04-25T01:17:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-24T12:38:00.000Z"></span>Fortasse legendum est "Whoever teaches that neither good nor bad gods exist, is called 'atheista'." ...sed hoc non multo melius est. —<a href="/wiki/Usor:Myc%C4%93s" title="Usor:Mycēs">Mucius Tever</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Mycēs-2008-04-25T01:17:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-24T12:38:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:17, 25 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mycēs-2008-04-25T01:17:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-24T12:38:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mycēs-2008-04-25T01:17:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-24T12:38:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-25T01:22:00.000Z-Mycēs-2008-04-25T01:17:00.000Z"></span>Cur interest si dei sunt boni aut mali? atheimus solumodo dixit deos non exsistere nonne?(Why does it matter if the gods are good or bad. Atheism only says that they don't exist, doesn't it?)--<a href="/wiki/Usor:Rafaelgarcia" title="Usor:Rafaelgarcia">Rafaelgarcia</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-25T01:22:00.000Z-Mycēs-2008-04-25T01:17:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:22, 25 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-25T01:22:00.000Z-Mycēs-2008-04-25T01:17:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-25T01:22:00.000Z-Mycēs-2008-04-25T01:17:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Neander-2008-04-25T03:43:00.000Z-Atheus_aut_Atheista"></span>Maybe it does now. I understand, for example, that early Christians were called atheists, not because they believed in <i>no</i> gods, but because of the particular gods they didn't believe in. But really, the sentence doesn't seem to make much sense either way. —01:52, 25 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p>Please, everybody, by all means, write a better praefatio. This is not my monopoly. <b>:–)</b> --<a href="/wiki/Usor:Neander" title="Usor:Neander">Neander</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Neander-2008-04-25T03:43:00.000Z-Atheus_aut_Atheista" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:43, 25 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Neander-2008-04-25T03:43:00.000Z-Atheus_aut_Atheista"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Neander-2008-04-25T03:43:00.000Z-Atheus_aut_Atheista"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Neander-2008-04-26T02:14:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-25T03:43:00.000Z"></span>Praefationem nuper aliquot mutationibus affeci. Siquidem ea, quae aliter concepta scripseram, animorum confusioni fuisse videntur, praefationem statui in formam ante-Neanderthalensem esse redintegrandam, ne mut(il)ationes a me coeptae cogitandi tenorem obstruant. --<a href="/wiki/Usor:Neander" title="Usor:Neander">Neander</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Neander-2008-04-26T02:14:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-25T03:43:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:14, 26 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Neander-2008-04-26T02:14:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-25T03:43:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Neander-2008-04-26T02:14:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-25T03:43:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Credere" data-mw-thread-id="h-Credere-2008-04-24T22:05:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Credere-2008-04-24T22:05:00.000Z"></span>Credere<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Credere-2008-04-24T22:05:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Disputatio:Atheismus&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section's source code: Credere"><span>fontem recensere</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Neander-2008-04-24T22:05:00.000Z-Credere"></span>Concedo me hanc sententiam parum intellegere: </p> <pre>Alii appellant eos qui in nullum deum credunt atheos, alii solum appellant eos qui deum non esse credunt atheos, affirmantque eos qui sole in nullum deum credant esse agnosticos. Id est "<i>non credere</i> deum esse"; non est "credere deum <i>non esse.</i>" </pre> <p>Mihi quidem videtur <i>Non credo deum esse</i> idem valere ac <i>Credo deum non esse</i>. Si pro verbo credendi verbo utamur sciendi, differentiam certe habeamus: <i>Nescio deum esse</i> non valet idem ac <i>Scio deum non esse</i>. In logica epistemica plurimum interest inter habitum sciendi et habitum credendi. An fallor? --<a href="/wiki/Usor:Neander" title="Usor:Neander">Neander</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Neander-2008-04-24T22:05:00.000Z-Credere" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:05, 24 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Neander-2008-04-24T22:05:00.000Z-Credere"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Neander-2008-04-24T22:05:00.000Z-Credere"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-04-24T23:37:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-24T22:05:00.000Z"></span>Apologies for replying in English; I was trying to get across the idea of a broader sense of the word "atheism" (which includes agnostics: essentially anyone who is not a theist or deist would be atheist by this definition) and a narrower one (which only includes people who would say "I believe that there is no god"). Perhaps there was a little L1 interference here: in English there is certainly a difference between "do not believe that" and "believe that not", and I hoped to get this across by my use of bold in Latin. If one can not do this in Latin, then another way has to be found. However, I would try to avoid using "scio", as that would create an even narrower definition, by which Bertrand Russell would not be an <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot">a-teapotist</a> since he says that it can not be known (according to an everyday definition of "know") that there is no teapot. <a href="/wiki/Usor:LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs" title="Usor:LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs">Leigh</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/Disputatio_Usoris:LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs" title="Disputatio Usoris:LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs">(disp)</a></sup> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-04-24T23:37:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-24T22:05:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:37, 24 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-04-24T23:37:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-24T22:05:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-04-24T23:37:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-24T22:05:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Neander-2008-04-25T03:38:00.000Z-Credere"></span>Leigh, I think I'm with Russell here (perhaps more than the Master himself), but let me try to relate myself to his teapot. It seems to me that Russell is constructing an existential claim which, according to his belief, is nonsensical enough to prove his atheistic point. R's teapot involves an existential (ontological) claim that can't be disproved, and whoever concludes, from our (present) inability to disprove it, that R's teapot exists, commits the fallacy of <i>argumentum ad ignorantiam</i>. So far so good. But it seems to me that existential claims in general can't be disproved; they can only be proved. Is there any philosophical reason for ruling out the possibility of such a teapot as that described by Russell? There may be serious epistemological (methodological) and commonsense ontological reasons for disbelieving the possibility of R's teapot. But do we <u>really</u> know what the universe is like? <b>:–)</b> Perhaps we can infer nothing about the existence of R's teapot. </p><p>Re difference between "do not believe that" and "believe that not": Perhaps it is my L1 that prevents me from capturing the difference. But on the other hand I'm not a supporter of strong linguistic relativism. I can understand the difference between the broader and the narrower sense of atheism. If one doesn't believe that <i>p</i>, one thereby doubts that <i>p</i> but doesn't rule out the possibility that <i>p</i>. One just refuses to endorse the <i>argumentum ad ignorantiam</i>. But if one believes that not <i>p</i> and is thereby denying even the possibility of <i>p</i>, one is liable to give an account of where such a certainty comes from. I can't dispel the thought that, in this case, "believing" is virtually the same as knowing. Martinus <a href="/wiki/Usor:Neander" title="Usor:Neander">Neander</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Neander-2008-04-25T03:38:00.000Z-Credere" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:38, 25 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Neander-2008-04-25T03:38:00.000Z-Credere"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Neander-2008-04-25T03:38:00.000Z-Credere"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Neander-2008-04-25T21:58:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-25T03:38:00.000Z"></span>It is (probably) impossible to disprove existential claims except when they are logical impossibilities and when the claims are specific about time and place. In the case of Russell's teapot, ateapotism is a practical and common sense position; we can not know for certain (can we know anything for certain? That is an argument for the scepticism page) that the teapot does not exist, but there is no reason to say it does and the chances of it existing (how would it get there?) are so slim that we can live our lives as if we were certain; we "know" that it does not exist in the same way that we "know" that elves do not exist. Of course, the teapot is not a perfect analogy here, as it was designed to make another point: that is up to theists, not atheists, to support their claims. <dl><dd>I agree that there is no obvious (commonsensical or non-religious) reason to hold that Russell's teapot exists. It doesn't affect our lives or impinge on our theories so as to make itself "felt" in any empirical way. So, ateapotism is indeed a practical and common sense position -- which can also be construed as meaning that the teapot doesn't exist to us, from which it doesn't follow that it couldn't exist as a Kantian noumenon. In any case, I think we agree that R's teapot doesn't exist as an object of experience. --<a href="/wiki/Usor:Neander" title="Usor:Neander">Neander</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Neander-2008-04-25T21:58:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-25T03:38:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:58, 25 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Neander-2008-04-25T21:58:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-25T03:38:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Neander-2008-04-25T21:58:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-25T03:38:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Neander-2008-04-25T23:12:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-25T03:38:00.000Z"></span>As for "not believe that" and "believe that not", the first is a negative claim about existence and the second a positive one about non-existence. "Not believe that" is often used to mean "believe that not" in English, but when they are contrasted like this there is a definite difference. Someone who is a pure agnostic does not believe that god exists but does not believe that god does not exist; for him/her the two propositions are equally likely and s/he does not believe either. My dog does not believe that and does not believe that not. "Not believe that" would be a 4, 5, 6, 7 or possibly 3 on Dawkins' spectrum of probability (which is very useful for making these distinctions) whilst "believe that not" would only be a 6 or 7. And knowing is different from believing here; someone who knows is a 7 and probably believes that there is a logical impossibility in the idea of god. I would put myself between 6 and 6.5; I believe that the probability of the statement "god does not exist" is significantly greater that 50%: I <i>believe</i> the statement in the common English sense of the word "believe". Since I do not believe that the probability of the statement being true is 100%, I do not claim to <i>know</i> (for me the word "know" implies certainty, for some it does not). <dl><dd>Believing and knowing don't necessarily involve "claims". I'm pressing this because it looks like "not believe"/"non credere" sometimes tend to be taken to mean "negare". "Credere" is an epistemic attitude, whilst "negare" is a speech act: one may deny X and at the same time know (and hence also believe) that non-X. When re-writing the praefatio, I expressly tried to avoid using the verb "credere" in order to pave the way for a more inclusive presentation which would contain a characterisation of those varieties of atheism as well the supporters of which have other reasons for dissing religious beliefs than metaphysical or epistemological. Another reason was that, by using speech act verbs such as "negare" and "docere", I was trying to avoid giving the impression that atheism is just another system of belief. But insofar as I understand Dawkins (without having read his <i>Delusion</i> book, I'm sorry to say), he proposes to construe a continuum of certainty-of-belief. While its preference-theoretic logic is clear enough, I feel this is not exactly how my mind works. BTW, knowing implies certainty for me as well; those for who it does not, may be misusing the concept of knowing. --<a href="/wiki/Usor:Neander" title="Usor:Neander">Neander</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Neander-2008-04-25T23:12:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-25T03:38:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:12, 25 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Neander-2008-04-25T23:12:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-25T03:38:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Neander-2008-04-25T23:12:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-25T03:38:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-04-25T10:32:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-25T03:38:00.000Z"></span>I am not sure whether I am making the differences here clear. Well, problems with the meanings of words are quite commonplace in philosophy at the best of times, what with different people disagreeing about the different nuances in different words even when they both speak the same language natively. Perhaps a conversation between an Englishman and a Finn about epistemology as it relates to an article in Latin about atheism is bound to suffer a few mistranslations ;-) <a href="/wiki/Usor:LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs" title="Usor:LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs">Leigh</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/Disputatio_Usoris:LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs" title="Disputatio Usoris:LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs">(disp)</a></sup> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-04-25T10:32:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-25T03:38:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:32, 25 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-04-25T10:32:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-25T03:38:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-04-25T10:32:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-25T03:38:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-IacobusAmor-2008-04-25T12:02:00.000Z-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-04-25T10:32:00.000Z"></span>I have no problem distinguishing between a pattern of the form "I deny X" (e.g., "non credere deum esse") and a pattern of the form "I affirm non-X" (e.g., "credere deum non esse"). Is that really just because I speak English?! <a href="/wiki/Usor:IacobusAmor" title="Usor:IacobusAmor">IacobusAmor</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-IacobusAmor-2008-04-25T12:02:00.000Z-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-04-25T10:32:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:02, 25 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-IacobusAmor-2008-04-25T12:02:00.000Z-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-04-25T10:32:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-IacobusAmor-2008-04-25T12:02:00.000Z-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-04-25T10:32:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mycēs-2008-04-25T17:04:00.000Z-IacobusAmor-2008-04-25T12:02:00.000Z"></span>There's a contrast between <i>non credere</i> and <i>negare</i>, but it's kind of small (unless the discussion hinges on it). But does the original sentence under disputation actually hold? Do people actually say that about the words <i>athei</i> and <i>agnostici</i>, or just about the related words that happen to look like them in other languages? —<a href="/wiki/Usor:Myc%C4%93s" title="Usor:Mycēs">Mucius Tever</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Mycēs-2008-04-25T17:04:00.000Z-IacobusAmor-2008-04-25T12:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:04, 25 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mycēs-2008-04-25T17:04:00.000Z-IacobusAmor-2008-04-25T12:02:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mycēs-2008-04-25T17:04:00.000Z-IacobusAmor-2008-04-25T12:02:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-04-25T21:24:00.000Z-Mycēs-2008-04-25T17:04:00.000Z"></span>What you say about the words "athei" and "agnostici" is important; it is easy (for me at least) to fall into the trap of assuming that words that are listed in the dictionary as being the equivalents of our language's words in another language contain all of the same nuances: unfortunately, such translations are often inexact.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Now I feel compelled to ask another two questions: how are these words used in Latin, and what are our sources? I am going to make an assumption that comparatively little has been written about either atheism or agnosticism as serious positions in Latin, owing to the fact that they have only become common positions in recent times, in which most works have been written in the vernacular. I have looked in some rather large/special Latin dictionaries and have not found much of use for these words. And, as someone has said already, atheist has been used in the past (I presume in something written in Latin) to describe something that is very different from the English word that derives from it. <a href="/wiki/Usor:LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs" title="Usor:LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs">Leigh</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/Disputatio_Usoris:LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs" title="Disputatio Usoris:LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs">(disp)</a></sup> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-04-25T21:24:00.000Z-Mycēs-2008-04-25T17:04:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:24, 25 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-04-25T21:24:00.000Z-Mycēs-2008-04-25T17:04:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-04-25T21:24:00.000Z-Mycēs-2008-04-25T17:04:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Adamas-2008-06-25T17:22:00.000Z-Credere"></span>As I understand it, <i>credere in</i> + accusative is a post-classical Christian innovation, intended to convey something stronger than merely "belief that X exists"; <i>credere in Deum</i> implies not only that you believe there <i>is</i> a God, but that you place your hope, your trust, your faith in God and serve His will. You can <i>credere Deum</i> without <i>credere in Deum</i>—Satan, for example, obviously believes there is a God, but can't be said to have "faith in God" in the same way as Christians. <i>Credere Deum</i> and <i>credere Deo</i> are both valid classical formations, but it seems Augustine distinguished the two by saying that the accusative signifies belief (in the existence of), while the dative signifies <i>trust</i>. For example, by that logic, <i>credere Cartesio</i> would mean "I believe Descartes (about a claim)," whereas <i>credere Cartesium</i> would mean "I believe Descartes exists." A useful distinction, I'd say, but I'm not sure how much basis it has in classical Latin, nor do I know how faithfully it's followed by later writers. Still, it seems fair to say that atheists need merely refrain from <i>credere Deo</i> in order to be atheists; demons don't <i>credere in Deum</i>, yet demons do <i>credere Deum</i> and are therefore not atheists. (Also, I would assume that demons tend to <i>credere Deo</i>). -<a href="/wiki/Usor:Adamas" class="mw-redirect" title="Usor:Adamas">Adamas</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Adamas-2008-06-25T17:22:00.000Z-Credere" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:22, 25 Iunii 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Adamas-2008-06-25T17:22:00.000Z-Credere"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Adamas-2008-06-25T17:22:00.000Z-Credere"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Neander-2008-06-26T01:25:00.000Z-Adamas-2008-06-25T17:22:00.000Z"></span>I believe you're quite right in your conclusions about <i>credere</i>. So this is something to pay heed to in the article text. BTW, a question concerning the extension of atheism crossed my mind when reading your example "Satan, for example, obviously believes there is a God": Obviously, atheists believe there is no God. But do they also believe there is no Satan? It would be logical to deny both but I'm not quite sure, because the focus seems to be on God. --<a href="/wiki/Usor:Neander" title="Usor:Neander">Neander</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Neander-2008-06-26T01:25:00.000Z-Adamas-2008-06-25T17:22:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:25, 26 Iunii 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Neander-2008-06-26T01:25:00.000Z-Adamas-2008-06-25T17:22:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Neander-2008-06-26T01:25:00.000Z-Adamas-2008-06-25T17:22:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-26T01:30:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-26T01:25:00.000Z"></span>It depends on one's concept of Satan. For most people Satan is defined in terms of God; Satan would not be Satan if he did not rebel or oppose God in the first place. Thus, for most people, the concept Satan genetically depends on the concept God. Thus to deny the idea of God is to deny that of Satan as well.--<a href="/wiki/Usor:Rafaelgarcia" title="Usor:Rafaelgarcia">Rafaelgarcia</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-26T01:30:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-26T01:25:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:30, 26 Iunii 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-26T01:30:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-26T01:25:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-26T01:30:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-26T01:25:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="re_atheism" data-mw-thread-id="h-re_atheism-2008-06-26T20:02:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-re_atheism-2008-06-26T20:02:00.000Z"></span>re atheism<span data-mw-comment-end="h-re_atheism-2008-06-26T20:02:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Disputatio:Atheismus&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section's source code: re atheism"><span>fontem recensere</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-26T20:02:00.000Z-re_atheism"></span>Some atheists do believe in Satan, but their Satan is not the same Satan as that of the Christians; they believe in another being which has the same name and some things in common, just as Spinoza believed in God without believing in the God of the Bible. Atheists should deny the existence of the Satan of Christianiy, but they are free to believe in any other entity going by the name of Satan. <a href="/wiki/Usor:LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs" title="Usor:LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs">Leigh</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/Disputatio_Usoris:LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs" title="Disputatio Usoris:LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs">(disp)</a></sup> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-26T20:02:00.000Z-re_atheism" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:02, 26 Iunii 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-26T20:02:00.000Z-re_atheism"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-26T20:02:00.000Z-re_atheism"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Neander-2008-06-26T20:46:00.000Z-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-26T20:02:00.000Z"></span>Then what's so bad about the Satan of Christianity? Am I to draw the conclusion that the purpose of quite a few atheists is to eradicate Cristianity from the world, while other types of irrational thinking are more of less OK? --<a href="/wiki/Usor:Neander" title="Usor:Neander">Neander</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Neander-2008-06-26T20:46:00.000Z-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-26T20:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:46, 26 Iunii 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Neander-2008-06-26T20:46:00.000Z-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-26T20:02:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Neander-2008-06-26T20:46:00.000Z-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-26T20:02:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-26T23:18:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-26T20:46:00.000Z"></span>That was me going into my weird, pedantic "logic mode" ;-) The Satan of Christianity, or any other Satan who can only exist if a deity exists, is (since his existence requires the existence of God) incompatible with atheism; a concept of Satan which does not require a belief in God is compatible with it. I may be wrong, but I think that Anton Lavey's church says that there is an entity on can call Satan but that there is no God, so there have been a (very) small number of atheists who actually have believed in something they call Satan.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><i>In theory</i>, one can be an atheist and believe that the earth is flat and rests on the back of a giant turtle without believing any logical contradictions; to be an atheist one only needs to disbelieve anything that requires a belief in God. That does not mean that many atheists think it is more sensible to believe that the earth is flat than that God exists, only that the former is logically compatible with the proposition "God does not exist" whilst the latter is not, even though (in practice) nearly everyone who disbelieves the latter also disbelieves the former. <a href="/wiki/Usor:LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs" title="Usor:LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs">Leigh</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/Disputatio_Usoris:LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs" title="Disputatio Usoris:LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs">(disp)</a></sup> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-26T23:18:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-26T20:46:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:18, 26 Iunii 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-26T23:18:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-26T20:46:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-26T23:18:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-26T20:46:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Neander-2008-06-27T19:17:00.000Z-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-26T23:18:00.000Z"></span>As I understand Lavey, there is not even a personal Satan to believe in. Lavey's thought is certainly atheistic not unlike Nietzsche's Übermensch, a person of achevement who needs no god – with the addition of rituals and whistles, presumably for the (unconscious?) purpose of some LARPing, an activity so dear to quite a few people. ;-) ## Not being an Englishman, I am not sure whether I get right the meaning of the big G in God. So, when you say "to be an atheist one only needs to disbelieve anything that requires a belief in God", are you referring to the Christian God only, or to the God of monotheistic religions (incl. Allah) in general, or to any god with divine powers? --<a href="/wiki/Usor:Neander" title="Usor:Neander">Neander</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Neander-2008-06-27T19:17:00.000Z-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-26T23:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:17, 27 Iunii 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Neander-2008-06-27T19:17:00.000Z-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-26T23:18:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Neander-2008-06-27T19:17:00.000Z-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-26T23:18:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Neander-2008-06-27T19:58:00.000Z-re_atheism"></span>I guess what I conclude from this is that their are many kinds of atheism, </p> <dl><dd>Atheists that define themselves by rejecting all supernatural entities as illogical or arbitrary</dd> <dd>Atheists that define themselves by a particular disbelief in the existence of the Christian God <dl><dd>Wouldn't this define Muslims as atheists, then? --<a href="/wiki/Usor:Neander" title="Usor:Neander">Neander</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Neander-2008-06-27T19:58:00.000Z-re_atheism" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:58, 27 Iunii 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Neander-2008-06-27T19:58:00.000Z-re_atheism"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Neander-2008-06-27T19:58:00.000Z-re_atheism"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T20:31:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-27T19:58:00.000Z"></span>Except isn't the Christian God the same as the Jewish and Muslim one? Different religion doesn't necessarily mean different God.--<a href="/wiki/Usor:Rafaelgarcia" title="Usor:Rafaelgarcia">Rafaelgarcia</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T20:31:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-27T19:58:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:31, 27 Iunii 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T20:31:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-27T19:58:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T20:31:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-27T19:58:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Neander-2008-06-27T21:22:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T20:31:00.000Z"></span>Obviously not. The Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem has a long inscription written in Arabic, which states among other things: "God has no Son." Which doesn't mesh too well with, say, Matth.17.5: "This is my Son." --<a href="/wiki/Usor:Neander" title="Usor:Neander">Neander</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Neander-2008-06-27T21:22:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T20:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:22, 27 Iunii 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Neander-2008-06-27T21:22:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T20:31:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Neander-2008-06-27T21:22:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T20:31:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T21:51:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-27T21:22:00.000Z"></span>I appreciate your point that Muslims and Christians so vehemently disagree about the nature of God, so that we may consider them to have different concepts of God; but from a certain perspective, however, aren't they referring to the same entity in reality? Isn't it valid to consider this a dissagreement about whether the "God" had a son? --<a href="/wiki/Usor:Rafaelgarcia" title="Usor:Rafaelgarcia">Rafaelgarcia</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T21:51:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-27T21:22:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:51, 27 Iunii 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T21:51:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-27T21:22:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T21:51:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-27T21:22:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Neander-2008-06-27T22:33:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T21:51:00.000Z"></span>"... aren't they referring to the same entity in reality?" What reality, or whose? I have no dog (or god :-) in this fight. But I surmise both Christian believers and Muslims would deny the identity. If A's god is a father, and B's god not, isn't this a difference that makes a difference? --<a href="/wiki/Usor:Neander" title="Usor:Neander">Neander</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Neander-2008-06-27T22:33:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T21:51:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:33, 27 Iunii 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Neander-2008-06-27T22:33:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T21:51:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Neander-2008-06-27T22:33:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T21:51:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-28T00:22:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-27T22:33:00.000Z"></span>Being an athiest of the "all supernatural entities are illogical and/or arbitrary" sort, I cannot speak for muslims' or christians' point of view, but for myself, there is only <b> the one reality</b>, i.e. the reality which is all that actually exists, and my view is that all disagreements concerning fact are disagreements over what exists and actually is. The fact that there is only one reality, is the given and the basis of deciding what is right and wong. --<a href="/wiki/Usor:Rafaelgarcia" title="Usor:Rafaelgarcia">Rafaelgarcia</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-28T00:22:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-27T22:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:22, 28 Iunii 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-28T00:22:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-27T22:33:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-28T00:22:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-27T22:33:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Neander-2008-06-28T01:03:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-28T00:22:00.000Z"></span>For confessing Christians, God with his son is the one reality; for confessing Muslims, Allah is the one reality; for atheists, both are obviously arbitrary entities, whose identity of non-identity is presumably not worth pondering. I'm afraid a super-god is needed to tell who is right. :-) --<a href="/wiki/Usor:Neander" title="Usor:Neander">Neander</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Neander-2008-06-28T01:03:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-28T00:22:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:03, 28 Iunii 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Neander-2008-06-28T01:03:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-28T00:22:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Neander-2008-06-28T01:03:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-28T00:22:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T19:44:00.000Z-re_atheism"></span>Atheists that define themselves by a particular disbelief in the existence of all gods and supernatural beings</dd> <dd>Atheists that define themselves by an active opposition to the existence of the Christian God</dd> <dd>Atheists that define themselves by an active opposition to Christianity?</dd></dl> <p>And I suppose there are many other types that go by the same name.--<a href="/wiki/Usor:Rafaelgarcia" title="Usor:Rafaelgarcia">Rafaelgarcia</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T19:44:00.000Z-re_atheism" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:44, 27 Iunii 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T19:44:00.000Z-re_atheism"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T19:44:00.000Z-re_atheism"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-28T13:07:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T19:44:00.000Z"></span>Surely 2 and 3 are merely reflect the default argument positions of many atheists, at least those in Europe and America? Having been raised in a (traditionally) Christian society, I am most familiar with the God (with a big G) of Abraham; I also deny the existence of the gods (with a small g) of other religions, but tend to focus on God out of habit. If most atheists one meets talk mainly about Christianity and its God, it is probably because that is the only god whose existence they are expected to consider and the god with whom the people in that persons society are most familiar. <a href="/wiki/Usor:LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs" title="Usor:LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs">Leigh</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/Disputatio_Usoris:LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs" title="Disputatio Usoris:LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs">(disp)</a></sup> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-28T13:07:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T19:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:07, 28 Iunii 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-28T13:07:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T19:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-28T13:07:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T19:44:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Neander-2008-06-28T17:45:00.000Z-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-28T13:07:00.000Z"></span>Yes, I can understand the default argument for local or political atheism. Still, I cannot help finding only 1 and 3 (global atheism) intellectually coherent positions. --<a href="/wiki/Usor:Neander" title="Usor:Neander">Neander</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Neander-2008-06-28T17:45:00.000Z-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-28T13:07:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:45, 28 Iunii 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Neander-2008-06-28T17:45:00.000Z-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-28T13:07:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Neander-2008-06-28T17:45:00.000Z-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-28T13:07:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-28T18:53:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-28T17:45:00.000Z"></span>I agree with you there.--<a href="/wiki/Usor:Rafaelgarcia" title="Usor:Rafaelgarcia">Rafaelgarcia</a> <a href="https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Atheismus#c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-28T18:53:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-28T17:45:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:53, 28 Iunii 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-28T18:53:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-28T17:45:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-28T18:53:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-28T17:45:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Receptum de "<a dir="ltr" href="https://la.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disputatio:Atheismus&oldid=544616">https://la.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disputatio:Atheismus&oldid=544616</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks catlinks-allhidden" data-mw="interface"></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> Novissima mutatio die 28 Iunii 2008 hora 18:53 facta.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Nonobstantibus ceteris condicionibus hunc textum tractare licet secundum <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/">"Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License"</a>. Vide <a class="external text" href="https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Policy:Terms_of_Use">modos et condiciones</a>.</li> </ul> <ul id="footer-places"> <li id="footer-places-privacy"><a href="https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Policy:Privacy_policy">Consilium de secreto</a></li> <li id="footer-places-about"><a href="/wiki/Vicipaedia:De_Vicipaedia">De Vicipaedia</a></li> <li id="footer-places-disclaimers"><a href="/wiki/Vicipaedia:Repudiationes">Repudiationes</a></li> <li id="footer-places-wm-codeofconduct"><a href="https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Policy:Universal_Code_of_Conduct">Code of Conduct</a></li> <li id="footer-places-developers"><a href="https://developer.wikimedia.org">Elaboratores</a></li> <li id="footer-places-statslink"><a href="https://stats.wikimedia.org/#/la.wikipedia.org">Statistica</a></li> <li id="footer-places-cookiestatement"><a href="https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Policy:Cookie_statement">Cookie statement</a></li> <li id="footer-places-mobileview"><a href="//la.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disputatio:Atheismus&mobileaction=toggle_view_mobile" class="noprint stopMobileRedirectToggle">Pagina mobilis</a></li> </ul> <ul id="footer-icons" class="noprint"> <li id="footer-copyrightico"><a href="https://wikimediafoundation.org/" class="cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button--enabled"><img src="/static/images/footer/wikimedia-button.svg" width="84" height="29" alt="Wikimedia Foundation" loading="lazy"></a></li> <li id="footer-poweredbyico"><a href="https://www.mediawiki.org/" class="cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button--enabled"><img src="/w/resources/assets/poweredby_mediawiki.svg" alt="Powered by MediaWiki" width="88" height="31" loading="lazy"></a></li> </ul> </footer> </div> </div> </div> <div class="vector-settings" id="p-dock-bottom"> <ul></ul> </div><script>(RLQ=window.RLQ||[]).push(function(){mw.config.set({"wgHostname":"mw-web.codfw.main-68775984f6-9htlk","wgBackendResponseTime":158,"wgDiscussionToolsPageThreads":[{"headingLevel":null,"name":"h-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2007-01-14T01:28:00.000Z","type":"heading","level":0,"id":"h--2007-01-14T01:28:00.000Z","replies":[{"timestamp":"2007-01-14T01:28:00.000Z","author":"LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2007-01-14T01:28:00.000Z","replies":[{"timestamp":"2007-02-05T16:45:00.000Z","author":"Alexanderr","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Alexanderr-2007-02-05T16:45:00.000Z-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2007-01-14T01:28:00.000Z","replies":[{"timestamp":"2007-02-05T17:08:00.000Z","author":"Ioshus Rocchio","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Ioshus_Rocchio-2007-02-05T17:08:00.000Z-Alexanderr-2007-02-05T16:45:00.000Z","replies":[{"timestamp":"2007-02-05T19:09:00.000Z","author":"Iustinus","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Iustinus-2007-02-05T19:09:00.000Z-Ioshus_Rocchio-2007-02-05T17:08:00.000Z","replies":[{"timestamp":"2007-02-05T19:24:00.000Z","author":"Ioshus Rocchio","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Ioshus_Rocchio-2007-02-05T19:24:00.000Z-Iustinus-2007-02-05T19:09:00.000Z","replies":[{"timestamp":"2007-02-05T19:28:00.000Z","author":"Iustinus","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Iustinus-2007-02-05T19:28:00.000Z-Ioshus_Rocchio-2007-02-05T19:24:00.000Z","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-04-24T12:42:00.000Z","author":"IacobusAmor","type":"comment","level":8,"id":"c-IacobusAmor-2008-04-24T12:42:00.000Z-Iustinus-2007-02-05T19:28:00.000Z","replies":[]},{"timestamp":"2007-02-05T19:54:00.000Z","author":"Ioshus Rocchio","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-Ioshus_Rocchio-2007-02-05T19:54:00.000Z-Iustinus-2007-02-05T19:28:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"Ioshus"}]}],"displayName":"Ioshus"}]}],"displayName":"Ioshus"}]}]}]},{"headingLevel":2,"name":"h-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-23T23:11:00.000Z","type":"heading","level":0,"id":"h-Atheus_aut_Atheista-2008-04-23T23:11:00.000Z","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-04-23T23:11:00.000Z","author":"Rafaelgarcia","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-23T23:11:00.000Z-Atheus_aut_Atheista","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-04-24T00:33:00.000Z","author":"Neander","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Neander-2008-04-24T00:33:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-23T23:11:00.000Z","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-04-24T00:47:00.000Z","author":"Rafaelgarcia","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-24T00:47:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-24T00:33:00.000Z","replies":[]}]}]},{"timestamp":"2008-04-24T12:38:00.000Z","author":"Rafaelgarcia","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-24T12:38:00.000Z-Atheus_aut_Atheista","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-04-25T01:17:00.000Z","author":"Mycēs","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Mycēs-2008-04-25T01:17:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-24T12:38:00.000Z","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-04-25T01:22:00.000Z","author":"Rafaelgarcia","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-04-25T01:22:00.000Z-Mycēs-2008-04-25T01:17:00.000Z","replies":[]}],"displayName":"Mucius Tever"}]},{"timestamp":"2008-04-25T03:43:00.000Z","author":"Neander","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Neander-2008-04-25T03:43:00.000Z-Atheus_aut_Atheista","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-04-26T02:14:00.000Z","author":"Neander","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Neander-2008-04-26T02:14:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-25T03:43:00.000Z","replies":[]}]}]},{"headingLevel":2,"name":"h-Neander-2008-04-24T22:05:00.000Z","type":"heading","level":0,"id":"h-Credere-2008-04-24T22:05:00.000Z","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-04-24T22:05:00.000Z","author":"Neander","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Neander-2008-04-24T22:05:00.000Z-Credere","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-04-24T23:37:00.000Z","author":"LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-04-24T23:37:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-24T22:05:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"Leigh"}]},{"timestamp":"2008-04-25T03:38:00.000Z","author":"Neander","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Neander-2008-04-25T03:38:00.000Z-Credere","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-04-25T21:58:00.000Z","author":"Neander","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Neander-2008-04-25T21:58:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-25T03:38:00.000Z","replies":[]},{"timestamp":"2008-04-25T23:12:00.000Z","author":"Neander","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Neander-2008-04-25T23:12:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-25T03:38:00.000Z","replies":[]},{"timestamp":"2008-04-25T10:32:00.000Z","author":"LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-04-25T10:32:00.000Z-Neander-2008-04-25T03:38:00.000Z","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-04-25T12:02:00.000Z","author":"IacobusAmor","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-IacobusAmor-2008-04-25T12:02:00.000Z-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-04-25T10:32:00.000Z","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-04-25T17:04:00.000Z","author":"Mycēs","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Mycēs-2008-04-25T17:04:00.000Z-IacobusAmor-2008-04-25T12:02:00.000Z","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-04-25T21:24:00.000Z","author":"LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-04-25T21:24:00.000Z-Mycēs-2008-04-25T17:04:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"Leigh"}],"displayName":"Mucius Tever"}]}],"displayName":"Leigh"}]},{"timestamp":"2008-06-25T17:22:00.000Z","author":"Adamas","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Adamas-2008-06-25T17:22:00.000Z-Credere","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-06-26T01:25:00.000Z","author":"Neander","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Neander-2008-06-26T01:25:00.000Z-Adamas-2008-06-25T17:22:00.000Z","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-06-26T01:30:00.000Z","author":"Rafaelgarcia","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-26T01:30:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-26T01:25:00.000Z","replies":[]}]}]}]},{"headingLevel":2,"name":"h-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-26T20:02:00.000Z","type":"heading","level":0,"id":"h-re_atheism-2008-06-26T20:02:00.000Z","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-06-26T20:02:00.000Z","author":"LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-26T20:02:00.000Z-re_atheism","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-06-26T20:46:00.000Z","author":"Neander","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Neander-2008-06-26T20:46:00.000Z-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-26T20:02:00.000Z","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-06-26T23:18:00.000Z","author":"LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-26T23:18:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-26T20:46:00.000Z","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-06-27T19:17:00.000Z","author":"Neander","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-Neander-2008-06-27T19:17:00.000Z-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-26T23:18:00.000Z","replies":[]}],"displayName":"Leigh"}]}],"displayName":"Leigh"},{"timestamp":"2008-06-27T19:58:00.000Z","author":"Neander","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Neander-2008-06-27T19:58:00.000Z-re_atheism","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-06-27T20:31:00.000Z","author":"Rafaelgarcia","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T20:31:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-27T19:58:00.000Z","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-06-27T21:22:00.000Z","author":"Neander","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Neander-2008-06-27T21:22:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T20:31:00.000Z","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-06-27T21:51:00.000Z","author":"Rafaelgarcia","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T21:51:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-27T21:22:00.000Z","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-06-27T22:33:00.000Z","author":"Neander","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-Neander-2008-06-27T22:33:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T21:51:00.000Z","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-06-28T00:22:00.000Z","author":"Rafaelgarcia","type":"comment","level":8,"id":"c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-28T00:22:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-27T22:33:00.000Z","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-06-28T01:03:00.000Z","author":"Neander","type":"comment","level":9,"id":"c-Neander-2008-06-28T01:03:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-28T00:22:00.000Z","replies":[]}]}]}]}]}]}]},{"timestamp":"2008-06-27T19:44:00.000Z","author":"Rafaelgarcia","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T19:44:00.000Z-re_atheism","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-06-28T13:07:00.000Z","author":"LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-28T13:07:00.000Z-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-27T19:44:00.000Z","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-06-28T17:45:00.000Z","author":"Neander","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Neander-2008-06-28T17:45:00.000Z-LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs-2008-06-28T13:07:00.000Z","replies":[{"timestamp":"2008-06-28T18:53:00.000Z","author":"Rafaelgarcia","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Rafaelgarcia-2008-06-28T18:53:00.000Z-Neander-2008-06-28T17:45:00.000Z","replies":[]}]}],"displayName":"Leigh"}]}]}],"wgPageParseReport":{"discussiontools":{"limitreport-timeusage":"0.028"},"limitreport":{"cputime":"0.068","walltime":"0.096","ppvisitednodes":{"value":43,"limit":1000000},"postexpandincludesize":{"value":0,"limit":2097152},"templateargumentsize":{"value":0,"limit":2097152},"expansiondepth":{"value":2,"limit":100},"expensivefunctioncount":{"value":0,"limit":500},"unstrip-depth":{"value":0,"limit":20},"unstrip-size":{"value":0,"limit":5000000},"entityaccesscount":{"value":0,"limit":400},"timingprofile":["100.00% 0.000 1 -total"]},"cachereport":{"origin":"mw-web.codfw.main-f69cdc8f6-xs6j4","timestamp":"20241123235330","ttl":864000,"transientcontent":true}}});});</script> </body> </html>