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class='oo-ui-labelElement-label'>Inline</label></span><div class='oo-ui-fieldLayout-field'><div id='mw-diffPage-inline-toggle-switch' title='Switches between inline format and two-column format' aria-checked='false' tabindex='0' role='switch' aria-labelledby='ooui-php-2' class='oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-toggleWidget oo-ui-toggleWidget-off oo-ui-toggleSwitchWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ToggleSwitchWidget","href":"\/w\/index.php?title=User_talk:Haberstr&diff=prev&oldid=384248827&diff-type=inline","value":false,"title":"Switches between inline format and two-column format"}'><span class='oo-ui-toggleSwitchWidget-glow'></span><a href='/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Haberstr&diff=prev&oldid=384248827&diff-type=inline'><span class='oo-ui-toggleSwitchWidget-grip'></span></a></div></div></div></div></div></div><table class="diff diff-type-table diff-contentalign-left diff-editfont-monospace" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" class="diff-otitle diff-side-deleted"><div id="mw-diff-otitle1"><strong><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Haberstr&oldid=384138122" title="User talk:Haberstr">Revision as of 03:34, 11 September 2010</a> <span class="mw-diff-edit"><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Haberstr&action=edit&oldid=384138122" title="User talk:Haberstr">edit</a></span><span class="mw-diff-timestamp" data-timestamp="2010-09-11T03:34:22Z"></span></strong></div><div id="mw-diff-otitle2"><a href="/wiki/User:Wikifan12345" class="mw-userlink" title="User:Wikifan12345" data-mw-revid="384138122"><bdi>Wikifan12345</bdi></a> <span class="mw-usertoollinks">(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikifan12345" class="mw-usertoollinks-talk" title="User talk:Wikifan12345">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Wikifan12345" class="mw-usertoollinks-contribs" title="Special:Contributions/Wikifan12345">contribs</a>)</span><div class="mw-diff-usermetadata"><div class="mw-diff-userroles"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Reviewing_pending_changes" title="Wikipedia:Reviewing pending changes">Pending changes reviewers</a></div><div class="mw-diff-usereditcount"><span>12,039</span> edits</div></div></div><div id="mw-diff-otitle3"> <span class="comment comment--without-parentheses"><span class="autocomment"><a href="#Gutting_Hamas_article">→<bdi dir="ltr">Gutting Hamas article</bdi></a></span></span></div><div id="mw-diff-otitle5"></div><div id="mw-diff-otitle4"><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Haberstr&diff=prev&oldid=384138122" title="User talk:Haberstr" id="differences-prevlink">← Previous edit</a></div></td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-ntitle diff-side-added"><div id="mw-diff-ntitle1"><strong><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Haberstr&oldid=384248827" title="User talk:Haberstr">Revision as of 19:25, 11 September 2010</a> <span class="mw-diff-edit"><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Haberstr&action=edit&oldid=384248827" title="User talk:Haberstr">edit</a></span><span class="mw-diff-timestamp" data-timestamp="2010-09-11T19:25:55Z"></span> <span class="mw-diff-undo"><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Haberstr&action=edit&undoafter=384138122&undo=384248827" title=""Undo" reverts this edit and opens the edit form in preview mode. It allows adding a reason in the summary.">undo</a></span></strong></div><div id="mw-diff-ntitle2"><a href="/wiki/User:Hope%26Act3!" class="mw-userlink" title="User:Hope&Act3!" data-mw-revid="384248827"><bdi>Hope&Act3!</bdi></a> <span class="mw-usertoollinks">(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hope%26Act3!" class="mw-usertoollinks-talk" title="User talk:Hope&Act3!">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Hope%26Act3!" class="mw-usertoollinks-contribs" title="Special:Contributions/Hope&Act3!">contribs</a>)</span><div class="mw-diff-usermetadata"><div class="mw-diff-userroles"></div><div class="mw-diff-usereditcount"><span>508</span> edits</div></div></div><div id="mw-diff-ntitle3"> <span class="comment comment--without-parentheses"><span class="autocomment"><a href="#Gutting_Hamas_article">→<bdi dir="ltr">Gutting Hamas article</bdi></a>: </span> canvassing</span></div><div id="mw-diff-ntitle5"></div><div id="mw-diff-ntitle4"><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Haberstr&diff=next&oldid=384248827" title="User talk:Haberstr" id="differences-nextlink">Next edit →</a></div></td> </tr><tr> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 283:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 283:</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-deleted"><div>:The Hamas article is an encyclopedia article rather than "the complete case against Hamas." The latter attitude is what has generated the now 145,240 bytes article you demand. Let's use good judgment regarding what an encyclopedia article attempts to do: for example, use examples to make a point rather than writing down EVERY example that makes exactly the same point about Hamas.[[User:Haberstr|Haberstr]] ([[User talk:Haberstr#top|talk]]) 20:08, 10 September 2010 (UTC)</div></td> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-added"><div>:The Hamas article is an encyclopedia article rather than "the complete case against Hamas." The latter attitude is what has generated the now 145,240 bytes article you demand. Let's use good judgment regarding what an encyclopedia article attempts to do: for example, use examples to make a point rather than writing down EVERY example that makes exactly the same point about Hamas.[[User:Haberstr|Haberstr]] ([[User talk:Haberstr#top|talk]]) 20:08, 10 September 2010 (UTC)</div></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-deleted"><div>::This has nothing to do with me Haberstr. You removed cited material because you simply didn't like it. Like you said, the Hamas article is an encyclopedic article. If you want to promote a more personal view of Hamas please create a blog. [[User:Wikifan12345|Wikifan12345]] ([[User talk:Wikifan12345|talk]]) 03:34, 11 September 2010 (UTC)</div></td> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-added"><div>::This has nothing to do with me Haberstr. You removed cited material because you simply didn't like it. Like you said, the Hamas article is an encyclopedic article. If you want to promote a more personal view of Hamas please create a blog. [[User:Wikifan12345|Wikifan12345]] ([[User talk:Wikifan12345|talk]]) 03:34, 11 September 2010 (UTC)</div></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" class="diff-empty diff-side-deleted"></td> <td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td> <td class="diff-addedline diff-side-added"><br /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" class="diff-empty diff-side-deleted"></td> <td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td> <td class="diff-addedline diff-side-added"><div>:::[[canvassing]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tiamut&curid=5378245&diff=384086706&oldid=383547712][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:PeterSymonds&diff=prev&oldid=384087245] in order to raise an army of your own? [[User:Hope&amp;Act3!|Hope&amp;Act3!]] ([[User talk:Hope&amp;Act3!|talk]]) 19:25, 11 September 2010 (UTC)</div></td> </tr> </table><hr class='diff-hr' id='mw-oldid' /> <h2 class='diff-currentversion-title'>Revision as of 19:25, 11 September 2010</h2> <div class="mw-content-ltr mw-parser-output" lang="en" dir="ltr"><meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Stephen_Crane" data-mw-thread-id="h-Stephen_Crane-2008-02-16T04:07:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Stephen_Crane-2008-02-16T04:07:00.000Z"></span>Stephen Crane<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Stephen_Crane-2008-02-16T04:07:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <table style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"> <tbody><tr> <td rowspan="2" valign="middle"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Yamara-2008-02-16T04:07:00.000Z-Stephen_Crane"></span><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Biographystar.png" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Biographystar.png/100px-Biographystar.png" decoding="async" width="100" height="95" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Biographystar.png/150px-Biographystar.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Biographystar.png/200px-Biographystar.png 2x" data-file-width="901" data-file-height="855"/></a></span> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;"><b>The Biography Barnstar</b> </td></tr> <tr> <td style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;"><i><b>To <a href="/wiki/User:Haberstr" title="User:Haberstr">Haberstr</a></b></i> — In recognition of your excellent and tireless efforts in improving the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography">biography</a> of <b><a href="/wiki/Stephen_Crane" title="Stephen Crane">Stephen Crane</a></b>.<br/> <small><a href="/wiki/User:Yllosubmarine" title="User:Yllosubmarine">María</a> gets one too!</small> —<b><font color="#FF3300"><a href="/wiki/User:Yamara" title="User:Yamara">Yamara</a></font></b> <font color="#FF3300"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Yamara" title="User talk:Yamara"><small>✉</small></a></font> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Yamara-2008-02-16T04:07:00.000Z-Stephen_Crane" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:07, 16 February 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Yamara-2008-02-16T04:07:00.000Z-Stephen_Crane"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Yamara-2008-02-16T04:07:00.000Z-Stephen_Crane"></span> </td></tr></tbody></table> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Your_recent_edit_to_Stephen_Crane" data-mw-thread-id="h-Your_recent_edit_to_Stephen_Crane-2008-04-02T16:50:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Your_recent_edit_to_Stephen_Crane-2008-04-02T16:50:00.000Z"></span>Your recent edit to <a href="/wiki/Stephen_Crane" title="Stephen Crane">Stephen Crane</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Your_recent_edit_to_Stephen_Crane-2008-04-02T16:50:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Yllosubmarine-2008-04-02T16:50:00.000Z-Your_recent_edit_to_Stephen_Crane"></span>Please respect the fact that I am currently and heavily editing this article. Although it is true that the article itself has not been "touched" in a bit, I have been working diligently on it elsewhere; several of your edits were not only against what I have planned and what I believe to be scholarly correct, but they also went against MOS formatting. For example, headers are not all in caps as you changed it, and you seem to have confused the timeline in the lead. I would appreciate it if you held off making large edits such as did without first discussing it. <span style="font-family:verdana"><a href="/wiki/User:Yllosubmarine" title="User:Yllosubmarine">María</a> </span><small>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Yllosubmarine" title="User talk:Yllosubmarine"><span style="color:green">habla</span></a> con<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Yllosubmarine" title="Special:Contributions/Yllosubmarine"><span style="color:green">migo</span></a>)</small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Yllosubmarine-2008-04-02T16:50:00.000Z-Your_recent_edit_to_Stephen_Crane" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:50, 2 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Yllosubmarine-2008-04-02T16:50:00.000Z-Your_recent_edit_to_Stephen_Crane"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Yllosubmarine-2008-04-02T16:50:00.000Z-Your_recent_edit_to_Stephen_Crane"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Yllosubmarine-2008-08-01T12:15:00.000Z-Yllosubmarine-2008-04-02T16:50:00.000Z"></span>Hi, Haberstr. I really wish you would voice your concerns at the talk page before making major changes to the Crane article. I reverted your edits for several reasons: first, the lead is at a more than acceptable length per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:LEAD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:LEAD">WP:LEAD</a>. The introductory section is meant to be an overview of the entire article, which it currently is. You entirely removed information from several sections of the article, which is not in accordance with Wikipedia's Manual of Style. It could stand to be even longer, in fact, but until I receive word from the current ongoing <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Peer_review/Stephen_Crane/archive1" title="Wikipedia:Peer review/Stephen Crane/archive1">peer review</a> that says otherwise, I'm willing to leave it as it is for now. Second, you have in the past removed my <a href="/wiki/French_spacing" class="mw-redirect" title="French spacing">french spacing</a> and I have since reinstated it for a reason: it is <i>in no way incorrect</i>. Per the MOS: "There are no guidelines on whether to use one space or two (French spacing) after the end of a sentence, but the issue is not important, because the difference is visible only in edit boxes; i.e. it is ignored by browsers when displaying the article." I would appreciate it if you did not remove the two spaces after full stops. Thirdly, while I am not entirely wedded to the current <i>Red Badge</i> quote used, from all accounts that I could find, I chose to include one of the most well known passages from the book. You said in your edit summary that "HG Wells selected this passage"; where, exactly?</dd></dl> <dl><dd>I don't mean to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OWN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OWN">own</a> this article, but I truly want it to retain a certain level of quality that it has achieved. As you can see on the talk page, it has recently been promoted to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:GA" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:GA">Good Article</a> status. However, I aim to bring it to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:FA" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:FA">Featured Article</a> status within a month's time, during which it will improve even further. You seem knowledgeable about Crane, which I respect, so if you can suggest how to improve the article (in line with the MOS) I will be more than happy to work <i>with</i> you, and not against you. We both seemingly have a common goal, but trust that I have experience in writing quality Wikipedia articles and I know what I'm doing. :) Take care, <span style="font-family:verdana"><a href="/wiki/User:Yllosubmarine" title="User:Yllosubmarine">María</a> </span><small>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Yllosubmarine" title="User talk:Yllosubmarine"><span style="color:green">habla</span></a> con<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Yllosubmarine" title="Special:Contributions/Yllosubmarine"><span style="color:green">migo</span></a>)</small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Yllosubmarine-2008-08-01T12:15:00.000Z-Yllosubmarine-2008-04-02T16:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:15, 1 August 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Yllosubmarine-2008-08-01T12:15:00.000Z-Yllosubmarine-2008-04-02T16:50:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Yllosubmarine-2008-08-01T12:15:00.000Z-Yllosubmarine-2008-04-02T16:50:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Yllosubmarine-2008-08-01T17:36:00.000Z-Yllosubmarine-2008-08-01T12:15:00.000Z"></span>The Wells quote is from the 'obituary' he wrote shortly after Crane's death. You can find it if you go back about a year and look at an old Crane wikipedia article. The following accusation is false: I have not "entirely removed information from several sections of the article." I changed the introduction, into something resembling the typical size and focus of nearly all wikipedia literary intros (see Hemingway, Joyce, Fitzgerald, and so on). None are the size of yours, and the one I found that was similar in size, on Steinbeck, focused on the things of great importance and the legacy, and not on minor autobiographical matters. In any case, since you apparently 'own' the article, it will be extraordinary that the Stephen Crane entry basically doesn't recognize his greatness as a short-story writer, his 'painterly' way with prose, and, perhaps his most salient feature, what H.G. Wells said about him, that he was the harbinger of a new world in writing. Another thing you excised from the text.</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Every article is different; <a href="/wiki/F._Scott_Fitzgerald" title="F. Scott Fitzgerald">F. Scott Fitzgerald</a> is only B-class, <a href="/wiki/Ernest_Hemingway" title="Ernest Hemingway">Ernest Hemingway</a> barely is a GA, and <a href="/wiki/James_Joyce" title="James Joyce">James Joyce</a> was written a few years ago when the MOS looked quite different than it does now. For high quality literary bios with extensive leads, see <a href="/wiki/Mary_Shelley" title="Mary Shelley">Mary Shelley</a>, <a href="/wiki/Emily_Dickinson" title="Emily Dickinson">Emily Dickinson</a> and <a href="/wiki/Edgar_Allan_Poe" title="Edgar Allan Poe">Edgar Allan Poe</a>. I think most of your points have been incorporated into the text to some degree; for example, similarities between Crane's style and Impressionism paintings is mentioned in "literary genre". What else do you think should be mentioned about Crane's short stories? As for the Wells quote, are you referring to the one from <i>Stephen Crane from an English Standpoint</i>? If so, part of the original quote that was in the article is currently in the "Legacy" section. It reads: "His work was described by Wells as 'the first expression of the opening mind of a new period, or, at least, the early emphatic phase of a new initiative.'" I want to make it clear that I <i>am</i> willing to work with you... <span style="font-family:verdana"><a href="/wiki/User:Yllosubmarine" title="User:Yllosubmarine">María</a> </span><small>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Yllosubmarine" title="User talk:Yllosubmarine"><span style="color:green">habla</span></a> con<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Yllosubmarine" title="Special:Contributions/Yllosubmarine"><span style="color:green">migo</span></a>)</small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Yllosubmarine-2008-08-01T17:36:00.000Z-Yllosubmarine-2008-08-01T12:15:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:36, 1 August 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Yllosubmarine-2008-08-01T17:36:00.000Z-Yllosubmarine-2008-08-01T12:15:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Yllosubmarine-2008-08-01T17:36:00.000Z-Yllosubmarine-2008-08-01T12:15:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Haberstr-2008-08-01T17:55:00.000Z-Yllosubmarine-2008-08-01T17:36:00.000Z"></span>Wells, in the article you cite, quotes from the Red Badge and that's what I used to replace your quote. That you don't see the weakness, the trivia, in your introduction is worrisome. (Perhaps an indication you've assigned yourself the 'author' role and feel you have the 'right' to reject any edit, and throw out any substance, for your own preferences.) Others brief intros (they are the vast majority, because they align with common sense about what an intro should do and be): Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac, William Faulkner, Saul Bellow, and Norman Mailer. My Crane intro was much longer than the preceding, it was roughly 250 words, so I was attempting to compromise with your 400 word intro. But as I said in the main Crane talk page, perhaps others will more objectively look at the two intros and gently tell us which is better.<a href="/wiki/User:Haberstr" title="User:Haberstr">Haberstr</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Haberstr-2008-08-01T17:55:00.000Z-Yllosubmarine-2008-08-01T17:36:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:55, 1 August 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Haberstr-2008-08-01T17:55:00.000Z-Yllosubmarine-2008-08-01T17:36:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Haberstr-2008-08-01T17:55:00.000Z-Yllosubmarine-2008-08-01T17:36:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Yllosubmarine-2008-08-01T18:50:00.000Z-Haberstr-2008-08-01T17:55:00.000Z"></span>Again, I ask that you read <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:LEAD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:LEAD">WP:LEAD</a>. All of the articles you have listed are of a far lower quality than Crane's article currently is. Instead of comparing lead sections, we should base our edits on Wikipedia guidelines. Because the article's length is currently at 55kb, <i>three or four lengthy paragraphs</i> in the lead is more than acceptable. If it will put you at ease, however, I will explicitly ask those who comment at the peer review of their opinions. Please also <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:AGF" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:AGF">assume good faith</a>; I am not rejecting any edit for my own preferences. I truly have this article's best interest at heart as I am hoping that you do. <span style="font-family:verdana"><a href="/wiki/User:Yllosubmarine" title="User:Yllosubmarine">María</a> </span><small>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Yllosubmarine" title="User talk:Yllosubmarine"><span style="color:green">habla</span></a> con<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Yllosubmarine" title="Special:Contributions/Yllosubmarine"><span style="color:green">migo</span></a>)</small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Yllosubmarine-2008-08-01T18:50:00.000Z-Haberstr-2008-08-01T17:55:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:50, 1 August 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Yllosubmarine-2008-08-01T18:50:00.000Z-Haberstr-2008-08-01T17:55:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Yllosubmarine-2008-08-01T18:50:00.000Z-Haberstr-2008-08-01T17:55:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Haberstr-2008-08-01T20:12:00.000Z-Yllosubmarine-2008-08-01T18:50:00.000Z"></span>The MOS offers guidance on number of paragraphs, but it is your word count that seems too long, 397 words. Mine was 266 words. Restricting ourselves to GA or former featured articles on modern US/British literary figures, here are the word counts I found after looking at (I think) all the very famous British/American authors: <a href="/wiki/Emily_Dickinson" title="Emily Dickinson">Emily Dickinson</a> (319), <a href="/wiki/Nathaniel_Hawthorne" title="Nathaniel Hawthorne">Nathaniel Hawthorne</a> (270), <a href="/wiki/Ernest_Hemingway" title="Ernest Hemingway">Ernest Hemingway</a> (113), <a href="/wiki/Henry_James" title="Henry James">Henry James</a> (275), <a href="/wiki/James_Joyce" title="James Joyce">James Joyce</a> (179), <a href="/wiki/Edgar_Allan_Poe" title="Edgar Allan Poe">Edgar Allan Poe</a> (352), <a href="/wiki/George_Bernard_Shaw" title="George Bernard Shaw">George Bernard Shaw</a> (304), <a href="/wiki/J.D._Salinger" class="mw-redirect" title="J.D. Salinger">J.D. Salinger</a> (284), <a href="/wiki/Mary_Shelley" title="Mary Shelley">Mary Shelley</a> (506), <a href="/wiki/Walt_Whitman" title="Walt Whitman">Walt Whitman</a> (250). My revision does not violate any rules and is in the middle of good article norms. By the way, the "lengthy paragraphs" quote you believe is in <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:LEAD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:LEAD">WP:LEAD</a> is not there. They do say this: <i>Avoid lengthy paragraphs and over-specific descriptions, especially if they are not central to the article as a whole.</i></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>My concern is, why so rapidly revise a perfectly acceptable, normal edit? And, why remove H.G. Wells commentary on Crane's writing style, which removes any reference to Crane's use of color imagery? By the way, before you came in and changed it, there was one space between sentences (see October, 2007) before you began your major expansion. As the Manual of Style states, you're not supposed to come in and make wholesale changes between perfectly acceptable alternatives. I was standardizing spacing to the way it was before you came. Finally, I don't want this dispute to get in the way of saying, again, thank you for the expansion and all your efforts toward improving the Stephen Crane entry. You've done a good job, in my humble opinion, particularly in the main, biographical section of the article. I would like to improve both the final literary evaluation section(s) and the introduction, but not if it involves a 'war'. <a href="/wiki/User:Haberstr" title="User:Haberstr">Haberstr</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Haberstr-2008-08-01T20:12:00.000Z-Yllosubmarine-2008-08-01T18:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:12, 1 August 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Haberstr-2008-08-01T20:12:00.000Z-Yllosubmarine-2008-08-01T18:50:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Haberstr-2008-08-01T20:12:00.000Z-Yllosubmarine-2008-08-01T18:50:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Possible_Material_for_Hamas_Article" data-mw-thread-id="h-Possible_Material_for_Hamas_Article-2009-01-27T01:34:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Possible_Material_for_Hamas_Article-2009-01-27T01:34:00.000Z"></span>Possible Material for Hamas Article<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Possible_Material_for_Hamas_Article-2009-01-27T01:34:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PinkWorld-2009-01-27T01:34:00.000Z-Possible_Material_for_Hamas_Article"></span>How Israel brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe Avi Shlaim The Guardian 7 January 2009 <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine/print?2">http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine/print?2</a> Like other radical movements, Hamas began to moderate its political programme following its rise to power. From the ideological rejectionism of its charter, it began to move towards pragmatic accommodation of a two-state solution. In March 2007, Hamas and Fatah formed a national unity government that was ready to negotiate a long-term ceasefire with Israel. Israel, however, refused to negotiate with a government that included Hamas. ... The only way for Israel to achieve security is not through shooting but through talks with Hamas, which has repeatedly declared its readiness to negotiate a long-term ceasefire with the Jewish state within its pre-1967 borders for 20, 30, or even 50 years. Israel has rejected this offer for the same reason it spurned the Arab League peace plan of 2002, which is still on the table: it involves concessions and compromises. </p><p>^5 on "suicide bombings" change; but "executed" brings to mind decapitation. <a href="/wiki/User:PinkWorld" title="User:PinkWorld">PinkWorld</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PinkWorld" title="User talk:PinkWorld">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-PinkWorld-2009-01-27T01:34:00.000Z-Possible_Material_for_Hamas_Article" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:34, 27 January 2009 (UTC)</a>Pink<span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PinkWorld-2009-01-27T01:34:00.000Z-Possible_Material_for_Hamas_Article"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PinkWorld-2009-01-27T01:34:00.000Z-Possible_Material_for_Hamas_Article"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Haberstr-2009-01-27T05:21:00.000Z-PinkWorld-2009-01-27T01:34:00.000Z"></span>I changed "executed" to 'launched'. Anyway, this is a large project. The Hamas article is currently in a complete mess. I've barely gotten into the intro section. Lots of unsourced and POV stuff. Thanks for link to the article, it's got some good historical background.<a href="/wiki/User:Haberstr" title="User:Haberstr">Haberstr</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Haberstr-2009-01-27T05:21:00.000Z-PinkWorld-2009-01-27T01:34:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:21, 27 January 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Haberstr-2009-01-27T05:21:00.000Z-PinkWorld-2009-01-27T01:34:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Haberstr-2009-01-27T05:21:00.000Z-PinkWorld-2009-01-27T01:34:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><br/><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PinkWorld-2009-02-07T04:52:00.000Z-Possible_Material_for_Hamas_Article"></span>I honestly feel a bit cowed by jayjg. He sounds very POV, but he is a senior WIki editor? And I feel that he and others insist on pushing the notoriety for suicide bombings thing. In any case, I have found some mroe interesting stuff. I will put it into txt files and toss it online. Most of it deals with general Israel-Palestine issues - what little of it deals specifically with Hamas I already posted in the talk page there. Be back with links when everything's posted. <a href="/wiki/User:PinkWorld" title="User:PinkWorld">PinkWorld</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PinkWorld" title="User talk:PinkWorld">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-PinkWorld-2009-02-07T04:52:00.000Z-Possible_Material_for_Hamas_Article" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:52, 7 February 2009 (UTC)</a>Pink<span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PinkWorld-2009-02-07T04:52:00.000Z-Possible_Material_for_Hamas_Article"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PinkWorld-2009-02-07T04:52:00.000Z-Possible_Material_for_Hamas_Article"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Haberstr-2009-02-07T16:33:00.000Z-PinkWorld-2009-02-07T04:52:00.000Z"></span>What specifically has jayjg edited or said that has cowed you? He doesn't seem particularly active in the Hamas edits, but maybe I'm looking in the wrong place.<a href="/wiki/User:Haberstr" title="User:Haberstr">Haberstr</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Haberstr-2009-02-07T16:33:00.000Z-PinkWorld-2009-02-07T04:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:33, 7 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Haberstr-2009-02-07T16:33:00.000Z-PinkWorld-2009-02-07T04:52:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Haberstr-2009-02-07T16:33:00.000Z-PinkWorld-2009-02-07T04:52:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PinkWorld-2009-02-07T05:22:00.000Z-Possible_Material_for_Hamas_Article"></span>Got it. The files might be rough, but I hope to continue working on them. <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://www.geocities.com/pinkownworld/TemporaryArchives/Palestine">http://www.geocities.com/pinkownworld/TemporaryArchives/Palestine</a> <a href="/wiki/User:PinkWorld" title="User:PinkWorld">PinkWorld</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PinkWorld" title="User talk:PinkWorld">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-PinkWorld-2009-02-07T05:22:00.000Z-Possible_Material_for_Hamas_Article" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:22, 7 February 2009 (UTC)</a>Pink<span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PinkWorld-2009-02-07T05:22:00.000Z-Possible_Material_for_Hamas_Article"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PinkWorld-2009-02-07T05:22:00.000Z-Possible_Material_for_Hamas_Article"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PinkWorld-2009-02-24T23:35:00.000Z-Possible_Material_for_Hamas_Article"></span>Thank you for your work. I wish that I saw you more in the talk pages (look who's talking: I have not even been around Wikipedia lately). I went GoogleBooking today for Hamas quips and got the following: <br/>Hamas: Politics, Charity, and Terrorism in the Service of Jihad <br/><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://books.google.com/books?id=CG-AjU3rraQC&printsec=frontcover">http://books.google.com/books?id=CG-AjU3rraQC&printsec=frontcover</a> <br/>By Matthew Levitt, Washington Institute for Near East Policy, Dennis Ross <br/>Contributor Dennis Ross <br/>Edition: illustrated <br/>Published by Yale University Press, 2007 <br/>ISBN 0300122586, 9780300122589 <br/>324 pages </p><p>Page 119 <br/>The al-Tadhoman Charitable Society and the Nablus charity committee highlight Hamas' ability to institutionalize grassroots dependency on the organization's institutions. ... [These two institutions] run profitable businesses. The charities provide jobs through businesses which they own or in which they are partners, including the Yasfa dairy company owned by the Nablus charity committee and the Nablus Mall in which al-Tadhoman is a part owner. They also run several social service branches, including a medical clinic at the al-Rawdahmosque, the al-Tadhoman school, an orphanage, a kindergarten, the al-Ansar sports club, and a club for adults that functions as a community center and a home for the elderly.31 </p><p>... For example, a worker who received his salary from the Yasfa dairy company (which belongs to the charitee committee) does his shopping at the Nablus Mall (which belongs to the dawa). His children go to the kindergarten or school belonging to the Islamic Riyadh al-Salihin ["kindergartens of the righteous"] network and when he needs a doctor he is treated free of charge at al-Tadhoman clinic, which was also built by the charity committee.32 </p><p>Other Hamas charities own similar businesses and operate similarly insular Hamas support systems. The Islamic Charitable Society in Hebron, for example, not only runs orphanages, schools, Koran memorization centers, and other typical dawa services, it also owns real estate in Hebron and runs a dairy farm. Hamas also owns a honey bee farm in Tulkarm, a company that operates heavy equipment used in quarries in Jenin, as well as other West Bank businesses, including textile workshops, bakeries, and a discount supermarket.33 </p><p>Page 120 <br/>...of June 2002 four thousand people in the Nablus area were reportedly receiving 100 Jordanian dinars a month from Hamas charities.34 </p><p>Page 231 <br/>To be sure, Palestinians face dire social welfare needs unaddressed by the infamously corrupt Palestinian Authority, creating an opportunity Hamas eagerly exploits. In January 2006 Hamas rode a wave of frustration over these and other inequities to victory at the polls. </p><p>One country: a bold proposal to end the Israeli-Palestinian impasse <br/><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://books.google.com/books?id=tIEcSEUmJ0wC&printsec=frontcover">http://books.google.com/books?id=tIEcSEUmJ0wC&printsec=frontcover</a> <br/>By Ali Abunimah <br/>Edition: illustrated, annotated <br/>Published by Macmillan, 2006 <br/>ISBN 0805080341, 9780805080346 <br/>227 pages </p><p>Page 50 <br/>During the Oslo years, a Hamas bombing was far more likely to bring the region's leaders rushing to Sharm al-Sheikh Page 51 for a summit than the countless protests, strikes, and sit-ins against the growing settlements or in support of thousands of prisoners. </p><p>Page 165 <br/>Even among Hamas supporters, 77 percent said they wanted a negotiated settlement.7 After the election, Hamas leaders stated their readiness to end the armed struggle if Israel withdrew to the 1967 lines. Khaled Meshal, the senior leader based in Damascus Meshal, the senior leader based in Damascus (who narrowly escaped an Israeli assassination bid in Amman in 1997), wrote in the Guardian and the Los Times, "Our message to the Israelis is this: We do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture. Jews have lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries in peace and harmony; they are in our religion 'the people of the book' who have a covenant from God and His Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) to be respected and protected. Our conflict with you is not religious but political."8 In what was a major step in terms of Hamas's <br/>Page 166 <br/>historic position, Meshal told the BBC that his organization would talk to Israel and come to terms, if it "recognises the rights of the Palestinians" and acts "to show and confirm its willingness to withdraw to the 1967 borders. Mousa Abu Marzook, another member of the organization's leadership, hinted that recognition of Israel was a political question, not one of immutable theology: "Where are the borders of the Israel we are supposed to recognize?" he challenged. "Are the settlements included in the borders? Is the return of refugees acceptable to Israel? Until these questions are answered, is not possible to propose" recognition.10 In a Washington Post op-ed, Abu Marzook also addressed Israelis directly: "We ask them to reflect on the peace that our peoples once enjoyed and the protection that Muslims gave the Jewish community worldwide. We will exert good-faith efforts to remove the bitterness that Israel's occupation has succeeded in creating, alienating a generation of Palestinians. We call on them not to condemn posterity to endless bloodshed and a conflict in which dominance is illusory. There must come a day when we will live together, side by side once again." </p><p>The Hebrew University's Avraham Sela and Tel Aviv University's Shaul Mishal, the two leading Israeli experts on Hamas, observed in their 2000 study, The Palestinian Hamas: Vision, Violence and Coexistence, that the organization is not a prisoner of its own dogmas" and "does not shut itself behind absolute truths, nor does it subordinate its activities and decisions to the... <br/>Pages 167-168 restricted today </p><p>Page 169 <br/>The Hamas leadership clearly recognizes this and has shown little inclination to implement far-reaching social changes along religious lines."17 Taking into account the Palestinian population within Israel and the diaspora, where people are generally more secular than in some parts of the occupied territories, no party would be able to impose a single ideology on everyone and would rapidly lose credibility if it did. </p><p>Page 186 <br/>Groups like Hamas, which to Palestinians are part of a legitimate national resistance, are viewed by Washington as enemies. </p><p>Documents: working papers, 2006 ordinary session (second part), 10 - 13 April 2006, Vol. 3: Documents 10743, 10824-10902 <br/><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://books.google.com/books?id=R2REc2zGJjcC&printsec=frontcover">http://books.google.com/books?id=R2REc2zGJjcC&printsec=frontcover</a> <br/>By Council of Europe: Parliamentary Assembly <br/>Published by Council of Europe, 2006 <br/>ISBN 9287160066, 9789287160065 <br/>378 pages </p><p>Page 282 <br/>1. ... The overwhelming victory of Hamas, which obtained the ability to form a majority government on its own... </p><p>2. However taken aback, all observers including the Parliamentary Assembly delegation have been unanimous in their assessment that the elections were fair and free; they ran smoothly and the Palestinian people have expressed their preferences in a democratic and peaceful way.2 The impressive turnout of 77% of the total number of registered voters removes any possible doubts concerning the legitimacy of the voters' choice. </p><p>4. ... Its action is divided into two main areas of operation: social programmes like building schools, hospitals and religious institutions on the one hand, and militant operations carried out by Hamas' underground Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades on the other. </p><p>5. Hamas has conducted many attacks on Israel including large-scale suicide bombings against Israeli civilian targets. The most deadly was the bombing of a Netanya Hotel in March 2002, in which 30 people were killed and over 140 were wounded. Overall, from November 2000 (beginning of the second intifada) to April 2004, as many as 377 Israeli citizens and soldiers were killed and 2 076 wounded in 425 attacks claimed by Hamas.1 </p><p>8. At the same time, since its formation, Hamas has conducted numerous social actions. Its popularity certainly stems in part from its welfare and social actions. Its popularity certainly stems in part from its welfare and social services to Palestinians, including school and hospital construction. The organisation devotes much of its estimated US$70 million annual budget to an extensive social services network, running many relief and education programmes, and funding schools, orphanages, mosques, health care clinics, soup kitchens and sports leagues. </p><p>9. Hamas is also well regarded by Palestinians for its efficiency and perceived lack of corruption particularly in comparison to Fatah. </p><p>1 According to the final results, Hamas won 44% of votes which assured 56% of seats (74 out of 132), and Fatah won 42% of the vote and 34% of seats (45). </p><p>2 See Document AS/BUR/AH PAL (2006) 2 (Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe report on the observation of elections). </p><p>1 The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs maintains a comprehensive list of terrorist attacks on its website. </p><p>Page 283 11. ... Hamas offered a 10-year truce (hudna), in return for a complete withdrawal by Israel to the borders from 1967, and an establishment of a Palestinian state. Hamas leaders announced that they could accept a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The truce has been observed but with several exceptions including the attack on the bus station in April 2005 where seven people were wounded, and several attacks on Israeli motorists killing in total six people. </p><p>12. Hamas boycotted the 1996 parliamentary and 2005 presidential elections but it did participate in the 2005 municipal elections in Gaza and the West Bank winning control over one third of Palestinian municipal districts. </p><p>13. The call for the destruction of Israel has been dropped from its electoral manifesto. Similarly, during the election campaign, the organisation toned down the criticism of Israel and only stated that they were prepared to use "armed resistance to end the occupation". ... </p><p>14. In an interview for a Russian newspaper Nezavisimaya Gazeta published on 13 February 2006, Hamas leader Khaled Mashal declared that Hamas would stop the armed struggle against Israel if it recognised the 1967 borders and withdrew its forces from occupied territories including the West Bank and eastern part of Jerusalem.However, Mashal continued to refuse to acknowledge the road map adopted by the Quartet (the European Union, the United Nations, the United States and the Russian Federation ) in 2003, claiming that "nobody respects it". </p><p>25. The result of the election is regarded by many observers as a major setback for governments attempting to mediate the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Some observers, however, say Hamas is following the same pragmatic path towards a relationship with Israel that the PLO and Fatah followed in the 1980s and 1990s. The mere fact of their taking seats in the Palestinian Legislative Council - a body formed in <br/>Page 284 <br/>the framework of the Oslo process - can be considered as a de facto recognition of Israel. </p><p>Sorry for the length - I just got home from the library and have not save this to a document to upload yet. </p><p>Regarding Jayjg, it's not a specific statement of his so much as it is the sheer volume of his postings on the talk page when he wants to support the inclusion of that POV assertion regarding notoriety and suicide bombings. I think that the ref section might still be taken over by his list. Don't we have WikiSource or something for things like that? I still don't know how to use various aspects of WIkipedia, but I think that there is some place where people can place large swaths of refernce material. <a href="/wiki/User:PinkWorld" title="User:PinkWorld">PinkWorld</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PinkWorld" title="User talk:PinkWorld">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-PinkWorld-2009-02-24T23:35:00.000Z-Possible_Material_for_Hamas_Article" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:35, 24 February 2009 (UTC)</a>Pink<span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PinkWorld-2009-02-24T23:35:00.000Z-Possible_Material_for_Hamas_Article"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PinkWorld-2009-02-24T23:35:00.000Z-Possible_Material_for_Hamas_Article"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Nizar_Rayan" data-mw-thread-id="h-Nizar_Rayan-2009-02-14T00:22:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Nizar_Rayan-2009-02-14T00:22:00.000Z"></span><a href="/wiki/Nizar_Rayan" title="Nizar Rayan">Nizar Rayan</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Nizar_Rayan-2009-02-14T00:22:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T00:22:00.000Z-Nizar_Rayan"></span>Hi Haberstr. The article, which was mostly written by me with the collaboration of a number of editors, was stable for quite a while before you came along (I'm assuming good faith, that it has nothing to do with our recent disagreement at the <a href="/wiki/Hamas" title="Hamas">Hamas</a> article) and made wholesale and drastic changes to the article with barely any discussion on the talkpage. The fact that you made the drastic changes in the article with a number of quick successive edits is obviously irrelevant. Please see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BRD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BRD">WP:BRD</a>, stop edit-warring, and discuss at the article's talkpage the specific changes you would like to make. Thanks, --<i><a href="/wiki/User:Brewcrewer" title="User:Brewcrewer"><span style="font family:Arial;color:green">brew</span></a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Brewcrewer" title="Special:Contributions/Brewcrewer"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:#2E82F4">crewer</span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Brewcrewer" title="User talk:Brewcrewer">(yada, yada)</a></i> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T00:22:00.000Z-Nizar_Rayan" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:22, 14 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T00:22:00.000Z-Nizar_Rayan"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T00:22:00.000Z-Nizar_Rayan"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Haberstr-2009-02-14T01:01:00.000Z-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T00:22:00.000Z"></span>I assume you have good faith on the surface, but I'll be straightforward. Are you sure you're the ideal person to be editing Hamas material for a general encyclopedia? You've stated on your talk page that you hate the group with a passion. In contrast to that raw emotion, I just want to have a balanced, diverse perspective, fact and consensus-grounded, encyclopedic-like article on Hamas (on any topic, actually), so people can come to Wikipedia and not get a pure "he was a b-a-a-a-d man" as their basic impression of a Hamas figure. And that's how various Wikipedia entries on Hamas and other 'bad' (from an official US/Israeli perspective) Middle Eastern figures strike me. The Hamas entry itself I have largely repaired; people who want to find bad stuff about Hamas or its leading figures can still find that there. On the other hand, the Hamas perspective on itself, and a diversity of nuanced Middle Eastern and Arab perspectives on the group are also beginning to be seen there. I'm not sure you want to be part of making authentic 'encyclopedia-like' articles about Hamas. That's my impression.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>On the specifics of the Rayan article, the changes I've made to this very small article are non-controversial and supported by the factual consensus. For example, whether or not Rayan was warned is not a fact; there is disagrement among RS on the matter. Rayan is not the top Hamas cleric, he is _arguably_ the top Hamas cleric, according to the source you provided. Do Gazans call his mosque "Mosque of the Martyrs"? Find a RS for that, I tried and could not.<a href="/wiki/User:Haberstr" title="User:Haberstr">Haberstr</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Haberstr-2009-02-14T01:01:00.000Z-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T00:22:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:01, 14 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Haberstr-2009-02-14T01:01:00.000Z-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T00:22:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Haberstr-2009-02-14T01:01:00.000Z-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T00:22:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T01:39:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-02-14T01:01:00.000Z"></span>I hate Hamas with a passion and I can't imagine how any civilized person wouldn't. Everything in the article is sourced besides for the names of his kids, which you inserted. The fact that Rayan was warned is supported by multiple reliable sources and a <i>Hamas spokesperson</i>. I would love to go over the article with you and discuss specific changes. So please revert to the previous version so that we can discuss each <i>specific</i> change you would like to make at the article't talk page. Thanks, --<i><a href="/wiki/User:Brewcrewer" title="User:Brewcrewer"><span style="font family:Arial;color:green">brew</span></a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Brewcrewer" title="Special:Contributions/Brewcrewer"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:#2E82F4">crewer</span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Brewcrewer" title="User talk:Brewcrewer">(yada, yada)</a></i> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T01:39:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-02-14T01:01:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:39, 14 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T01:39:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-02-14T01:01:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T01:39:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-02-14T01:01:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Haberstr-2009-02-14T15:24:00.000Z-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T01:39:00.000Z"></span>An encyclopedia article should not represent the 'why' of why you "and any civilized person" hate Hamas and its various leaders, but that's what you've created. Very many civilzed people do not hate Hamas; it won the Palestinian elections in 2006, for example. I'm against suicide bombings and Islamic fundamentalism, though I don't hate the latter; I look at Hamas as a more complicated entity, and its leaders as more complicated than those two things. This is a very short article. I'll revert and start changing back to my version. I'm going to assume for now that you don't have a problem with the lead section.<a href="/wiki/User:Haberstr" title="User:Haberstr">Haberstr</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Haberstr-2009-02-14T15:24:00.000Z-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T01:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:24, 14 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Haberstr-2009-02-14T15:24:00.000Z-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T01:39:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Haberstr-2009-02-14T15:24:00.000Z-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T01:39:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Haberstr-2009-02-14T15:38:00.000Z-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T01:39:00.000Z"></span>On second thought, I'm not going to do a wholesale revert, because the main thing I did was reorganize the first main section so that same items were in the same paragraph. You had mixed in his educational/clerical/professorial story with his military story, incoherently. As much as possible they should be separated, if it doesn't do violence to the basic chronology of his story. For example, you stuck into the middle of his clerical story the contention from the New York Daily News that Rayan "enjoyed" going out on patrols with his militia men. Whatever the validity of that contention, it should be in the second paragraph and not the first. Why don't you just add back in the 'factoid' that he enjoyed going out on patrols with his men? And add in your other 'factoid' that the mosque where he frequently preached was nicknamed "Mosque of Martyrs"? It seems to me it's your job to add your unsourced or single biased source stuff back. But do it in the proper paragraph and notice and respect the improved overall organization.<a href="/wiki/User:Haberstr" title="User:Haberstr">Haberstr</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Haberstr-2009-02-14T15:38:00.000Z-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T01:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:38, 14 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Haberstr-2009-02-14T15:38:00.000Z-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T01:39:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Haberstr-2009-02-14T15:38:00.000Z-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T01:39:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T19:13:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-02-14T15:38:00.000Z"></span>The editors that wrote the <a href="/wiki/Hitler" class="mw-redirect" title="Hitler">Hitler</a>, <a href="/wiki/Stalin" class="mw-redirect" title="Stalin">Stalin</a>, and <a href="/wiki/Pol_Pot" title="Pol Pot">Pol Pot</a> articles presumably hated their subject as well, but nevertheless were able to churn out a "neutral" article. Same with Rayan. I hate the person (and all people that don't value human life), but the article is still "neutral" article. The article was vetted by a number of editors before it was on the DYK section of the main page. You're being inconsistent by saying on the one hand that the article represents why I hate the man while saying that the changes you made were minute. In any case, all this is irrelevant. I would like to discuss the changes you wish to make but I cannot with the huge overhaul you made to the article. It would be much easier and would show lots of good faith on your part if you reverted to the previous stable version so that we can discuss piece by piece (at the article's talkpage) the changes you you're proposing. Thanks,--<i><a href="/wiki/User:Brewcrewer" title="User:Brewcrewer"><span style="font family:Arial;color:green">brew</span></a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Brewcrewer" title="Special:Contributions/Brewcrewer"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:#2E82F4">crewer</span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Brewcrewer" title="User talk:Brewcrewer">(yada, yada)</a></i> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T19:13:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-02-14T15:38:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:13, 14 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T19:13:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-02-14T15:38:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T19:13:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-02-14T15:38:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Haberstr-2009-02-15T17:21:00.000Z-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T19:13:00.000Z"></span>So, you apparently think he's the equivalent of Stalin, Pol Pot, or Hitler. Anyway, as I said, the main thing I did was r-order sentences so the article became coherent. Other than that, I made minor changes, mainly pulling back from and qualifying your definitive statements.<a href="/wiki/User:Haberstr" title="User:Haberstr">Haberstr</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Haberstr-2009-02-15T17:21:00.000Z-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T19:13:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:21, 15 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Haberstr-2009-02-15T17:21:00.000Z-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T19:13:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Haberstr-2009-02-15T17:21:00.000Z-Brewcrewer-2009-02-14T19:13:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tiamut-2009-03-13T14:32:00.000Z-Nizar_Rayan"></span>Brewcrewer is alleging that you are refusing discussion at Nizar Rayan <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Nizar_Rayan&diff=276970526&oldid=276969920">[1]</a>. I have tried to explain to him that he needs to make clear what is problematic in the changes you have made on the talk page. He insists that he has already done so in edit summaries. I feel this is insufficient; however, I would ask you to come to the talk page and make explicit your willingness to discuss so that Brewcrewer will deign to give us an explanation of his wholesale reverts. Thanks for your cooperation. <a href="/wiki/User:Tiamut" title="User:Tiamut"><b><font color="#B93B8F">T</font><font color="#800000">i</font><font color="#B93B8F">a</font><font color="#800000">m</font><font color="#B93B8F">u</font><font color="#800000">t</font></b></a><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tiamut" title="User talk:Tiamut">talk</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Tiamut-2009-03-13T14:32:00.000Z-Nizar_Rayan" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:32, 13 March 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tiamut-2009-03-13T14:32:00.000Z-Nizar_Rayan"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tiamut-2009-03-13T14:32:00.000Z-Nizar_Rayan"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tiamut-2009-03-13T22:24:00.000Z-Tiamut-2009-03-13T14:32:00.000Z"></span>Thank you for the very prompt response. May I make a suggestion for the future? Perhaps the next time you want to copy and paste the two versions to compare them side by side, you could use a larger font for your commentary on each paragraph. When people are quickly scanning the page, they can miss your comments and fall for Brewcrewer's line that you did not discuss what was wrong with his version, when in fact you did, in great detail, paragraph by paragraph. I'm not sure if Brewcrewer failed to read your postings closely or is purposefully misrepresenting the situation. However by clearly differentiating between your commentary and the article text, others will be able to read and hear you more clearly. Very good work by the way. Keep your cool. That goes for me too. ;) <a href="/wiki/User:Tiamut" title="User:Tiamut"><b><font color="#B93B8F">T</font><font color="#800000">i</font><font color="#B93B8F">a</font><font color="#800000">m</font><font color="#B93B8F">u</font><font color="#800000">t</font></b></a><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tiamut" title="User talk:Tiamut">talk</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Tiamut-2009-03-13T22:24:00.000Z-Tiamut-2009-03-13T14:32:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:24, 13 March 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tiamut-2009-03-13T22:24:00.000Z-Tiamut-2009-03-13T14:32:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tiamut-2009-03-13T22:24:00.000Z-Tiamut-2009-03-13T14:32:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tiamut-2009-03-13T22:37:00.000Z-Tiamut-2009-03-13T22:24:00.000Z"></span>No problem. I have wasted too many hours discussing nothing with him though. If there is no change in his approach to editing over the next 24 hours, I will have to take this to either <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:AE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:AE">WP:AE</a> or <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ANI" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ANI">WP:ANI</a>. He seems to have stopped wholesale reverting for now, but I wish he would just answer the question about what is wrong with the new additions, rather than constantly asking what is wrong with the way it was (which you have already explained in depth). Anyway, here's hoping things move forward there. Have a good night. <a href="/wiki/User:Tiamut" title="User:Tiamut"><b><font color="#B93B8F">T</font><font color="#800000">i</font><font color="#B93B8F">a</font><font color="#800000">m</font><font color="#B93B8F">u</font><font color="#800000">t</font></b></a><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tiamut" title="User talk:Tiamut">talk</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Tiamut-2009-03-13T22:37:00.000Z-Tiamut-2009-03-13T22:24:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:37, 13 March 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tiamut-2009-03-13T22:37:00.000Z-Tiamut-2009-03-13T22:24:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tiamut-2009-03-13T22:37:00.000Z-Tiamut-2009-03-13T22:24:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Haberstr-2009-03-13T22:43:00.000Z-Tiamut-2009-03-13T22:37:00.000Z"></span>Thanks again, and let's continue to be patient (I'm telling myself).<a href="/wiki/User:Haberstr" title="User:Haberstr">Haberstr</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Haberstr-2009-03-13T22:43:00.000Z-Tiamut-2009-03-13T22:37:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:43, 13 March 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Haberstr-2009-03-13T22:43:00.000Z-Tiamut-2009-03-13T22:37:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Haberstr-2009-03-13T22:43:00.000Z-Tiamut-2009-03-13T22:37:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <table style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"> <tbody><tr> <td rowspan="2" valign="middle"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tiamut-2009-03-13T22:58:00.000Z-Nizar_Rayan"></span><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Modest_Barnstar.png" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Modest_Barnstar.png" decoding="async" width="100" height="96" class="mw-file-element" data-file-width="100" data-file-height="96"/></a></span> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;"><b>The Modest Barnstar</b> </td></tr> <tr> <td style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;">For making modest steps towards turning the article on <a href="/wiki/Nizar_Rayan" title="Nizar Rayan">Nizar Rayan</a> into something readable and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">WP:NPOV</a>. You seem to have a knack with biographies. Keep up the good work! <a href="/wiki/User:Tiamut" title="User:Tiamut"><b><font color="#B93B8F">T</font><font color="#800000">i</font><font color="#B93B8F">a</font><font color="#800000">m</font><font color="#B93B8F">u</font><font color="#800000">t</font></b></a><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tiamut" title="User talk:Tiamut">talk</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Tiamut-2009-03-13T22:58:00.000Z-Nizar_Rayan" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:58, 13 March 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tiamut-2009-03-13T22:58:00.000Z-Nizar_Rayan"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tiamut-2009-03-13T22:58:00.000Z-Nizar_Rayan"></span> </td></tr></tbody></table> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="History_of_terrorism_template" data-mw-thread-id="h-History_of_terrorism_template-2009-03-14T08:01:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-History_of_terrorism_template-2009-03-14T08:01:00.000Z"></span>History of terrorism template<span data-mw-comment-end="h-History_of_terrorism_template-2009-03-14T08:01:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sean.hoyland-2009-03-14T08:01:00.000Z-History_of_terrorism_template"></span>Remember you can comment over at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#Template:History_of_Terrorism" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Templates for deletion">Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#Template:History_of_Terrorism</a> if you care about what happens to this template. Interesting comment on your user page "<i>I've started revising the embarrassingly disorganized and unbalanced (against the non-Israeli point of view) Middle East political articles</i>". Good luck with that. You might want to check out the ongoing and re-ocurring 'disputed' vs 'occupied' debate at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Israel" title="Talk:Israel">talk:israel</a> if you haven't already. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"><b><a href="/wiki/User:Sean.hoyland" title="User:Sean.hoyland"><font color="#000">Sean.hoyland</font></a></b> - <b><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sean.hoyland" title="User talk:Sean.hoyland">talk</a></b></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Sean.hoyland-2009-03-14T08:01:00.000Z-History_of_terrorism_template" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:01, 14 March 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sean.hoyland-2009-03-14T08:01:00.000Z-History_of_terrorism_template"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sean.hoyland-2009-03-14T08:01:00.000Z-History_of_terrorism_template"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Haberstr-2009-03-14T08:06:00.000Z-Sean.hoyland-2009-03-14T08:01:00.000Z"></span>I did comment there. And it has been interesting being involved in the I/P stuff here. Frustrating too.<a href="/wiki/User:Haberstr" title="User:Haberstr">Haberstr</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Haberstr-2009-03-14T08:06:00.000Z-Sean.hoyland-2009-03-14T08:01:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:06, 14 March 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Haberstr-2009-03-14T08:06:00.000Z-Sean.hoyland-2009-03-14T08:01:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Haberstr-2009-03-14T08:06:00.000Z-Sean.hoyland-2009-03-14T08:01:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="RFC_regarding_WP:TERRORIST" data-mw-thread-id="h-RFC_regarding_WP:TERRORIST-2009-03-25T18:04:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-RFC_regarding_WP:TERRORIST-2009-03-25T18:04:00.000Z"></span>RFC regarding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:TERRORIST" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:TERRORIST">WP:TERRORIST</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-RFC_regarding_WP:TERRORIST-2009-03-25T18:04:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-RayAYang-2009-03-25T18:04:00.000Z-RFC_regarding_WP:TERRORIST"></span>Hi: Apologies in advance for the spam -- I've started a RFC concerning the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:TERRORIST" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:TERRORIST">WP:TERRORIST</a> guideline. The other users I've notified are all contributors to previous discussions, but I thought you might be interested based on our interaction at <a href="/wiki/Talk:History_of_terrorism" title="Talk:History of terrorism">Talk:History of terrorism</a>. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry for imposing. Best, <strong><a href="/wiki/User:RayAYang" title="User:RayAYang"><span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkRed">Ray</span></a></strong><a href="/wiki/User_talk:RayAYang" title="User talk:RayAYang"><sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">Talk</span></sup></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-RayAYang-2009-03-25T18:04:00.000Z-RFC_regarding_WP:TERRORIST" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:04, 25 March 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-RayAYang-2009-03-25T18:04:00.000Z-RFC_regarding_WP:TERRORIST"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-RayAYang-2009-03-25T18:04:00.000Z-RFC_regarding_WP:TERRORIST"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="RFPP" data-mw-thread-id="h-RFPP-2009-04-03T16:05:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-RFPP-2009-04-03T16:05:00.000Z"></span>RFPP<span data-mw-comment-end="h-RFPP-2009-04-03T16:05:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RFPP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RFPP"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Theseeker4-2009-04-03T16:05:00.000Z-RFPP"></span>WP:RFPP</a> is where you go to request protection of a page. If the editor is following you around and harassing you though, you may be better served to take the incident to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ANI" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ANI">WP:ANI</a> and request a block/rangeblock of the IP. I am not sure how dynamic the IP is, but it may be hard to nail the individual behind the IP down. I would personally request protection at RFPP and take it to ANI if the harassment continues. <font color="forestgreen"><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Theseeker4" title="Special:Contributions/Theseeker4"><b>The</b></a></font> <a href="/wiki/User:Theseeker4" title="User:Theseeker4"><font color="#0000C0"><b>Seeker 4</b></font></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Theseeker4" title="User talk:Theseeker4"><font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus"><i>Talk</i></font></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Theseeker4-2009-04-03T16:05:00.000Z-RFPP" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:05, 3 April 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Theseeker4-2009-04-03T16:05:00.000Z-RFPP"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Theseeker4-2009-04-03T16:05:00.000Z-RFPP"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Image_copyright_problem_with_File:Soviet_propaganda_poster,_who_is_your_enemy.jpg" data-mw-thread-id="h-Image_copyright_problem_with_File:Soviet_propaganda_poster,_who_is_your_enemy.jp-2009-04-08T07:44:00.000Z"><span id="Image_copyright_problem_with_File:Soviet_propaganda_poster.2C_who_is_your_enemy.jpg"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Image_copyright_problem_with_File:Soviet_propaganda_poster,_who_is_your_enemy.jp-2009-04-08T07:44:00.000Z"></span>Image copyright problem with File:Soviet propaganda poster, who is your enemy.jpg<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Image_copyright_problem_with_File:Soviet_propaganda_poster,_who_is_your_enemy.jp-2009-04-08T07:44:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-OrphanBot-2009-04-08T07:44:00.000Z-Image_copyright_problem_with_File:Soviet_propaganda_poster,_who_is_your_enemy.jp"></span>Thanks for uploading <a href="/w/index.php?title=File:Soviet_propaganda_poster,_who_is_your_enemy.jpg&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="File:Soviet propaganda poster, who is your enemy.jpg (page does not exist)">File:Soviet propaganda poster, who is your enemy.jpg</a>. The image has been identified as not specifying the copyright status of the image, which is required by Wikipedia's policy on images. If you don't indicate the copyright status of the image on the image's description page, using an appropriate <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ICT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ICT">copyright tag</a>, it may be deleted some time in the next seven days. If you have uploaded other images, please verify that you have provided copyright information for them as well. </p><p>For more information on using images, see the following pages: </p> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_use_policy" title="Wikipedia:Image use policy">Wikipedia:Image use policy</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_copyright_tags" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Image copyright tags">Wikipedia:Image copyright tags</a></li></ul> <p>This is an automated notice by <a href="/wiki/User:OrphanBot" title="User:OrphanBot">OrphanBot</a>. For assistance on the image use policy, see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Media_copyright_questions" title="Wikipedia:Media copyright questions">Wikipedia:Media copyright questions</a>. <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-OrphanBot-2009-04-08T07:44:00.000Z-Image_copyright_problem_with_File:Soviet_propaganda_poster,_who_is_your_enemy.jp" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:44, 8 April 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-OrphanBot-2009-04-08T07:44:00.000Z-Image_copyright_problem_with_File:Soviet_propaganda_poster,_who_is_your_enemy.jp"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-OrphanBot-2009-04-08T07:44:00.000Z-Image_copyright_problem_with_File:Soviet_propaganda_poster,_who_is_your_enemy.jp"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Artistic_Tributes_to_Rachel_Corrie_Page_Getting_Deleted" data-mw-thread-id="h-Artistic_Tributes_to_Rachel_Corrie_Page_Getting_Deleted-2009-05-01T19:14:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Artistic_Tributes_to_Rachel_Corrie_Page_Getting_Deleted-2009-05-01T19:14:00.000Z"></span>Artistic Tributes to <a href="/wiki/Rachel_Corrie" title="Rachel Corrie">Rachel Corrie</a> Page Getting Deleted<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Artistic_Tributes_to_Rachel_Corrie_Page_Getting_Deleted-2009-05-01T19:14:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kasaalan-2009-05-01T19:14:00.000Z-Artistic_Tributes_to_Rachel_Corrie_Page_Getting_Deleted"></span>Can you state your opinions on <a href="/wiki/User_talk:MBisanz#Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion.2FArtistic_Tributes_to_Rachel_Corrie" title="User talk:MBisanz">User_talk:MBisanz#Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion.2FArtistic_Tributes_to_Rachel_Corrie</a> page. <a href="/wiki/User:Kasaalan" title="User:Kasaalan">Kasaalan</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kasaalan" title="User talk:Kasaalan">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Kasaalan-2009-05-01T19:14:00.000Z-Artistic_Tributes_to_Rachel_Corrie_Page_Getting_Deleted" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:14, 1 May 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kasaalan-2009-05-01T19:14:00.000Z-Artistic_Tributes_to_Rachel_Corrie_Page_Getting_Deleted"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kasaalan-2009-05-01T19:14:00.000Z-Artistic_Tributes_to_Rachel_Corrie_Page_Getting_Deleted"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="History_of_Terrorism" data-mw-thread-id="h-History_of_Terrorism-2009-07-07T18:31:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-History_of_Terrorism-2009-07-07T18:31:00.000Z"></span>History of Terrorism<span data-mw-comment-end="h-History_of_Terrorism-2009-07-07T18:31:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Haberstr-2009-07-07T18:31:00.000Z-History_of_Terrorism"></span><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola_apps_important.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f7/Nuvola_apps_important.svg/25px-Nuvola_apps_important.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="21" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f7/Nuvola_apps_important.svg/38px-Nuvola_apps_important.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f7/Nuvola_apps_important.svg/50px-Nuvola_apps_important.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="500"/></a></span> Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Vandalism" title="Wikipedia:Vandalism">vandalize</a> Wikipedia, you will be <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Blocking_policy" title="Wikipedia:Blocking policy">blocked from editing</a>. --> </p> <dl><dd>Dear anonymous user: <span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola_apps_important.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f7/Nuvola_apps_important.svg/25px-Nuvola_apps_important.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="21" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f7/Nuvola_apps_important.svg/38px-Nuvola_apps_important.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f7/Nuvola_apps_important.svg/50px-Nuvola_apps_important.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="500"/></a></span> Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Vandalism" title="Wikipedia:Vandalism">vandalize</a> Wikipedia, you will be <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Blocking_policy" title="Wikipedia:Blocking policy">blocked from editing</a>. --><a href="/wiki/User:Haberstr" title="User:Haberstr">Haberstr</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Haberstr-2009-07-07T18:31:00.000Z-History_of_Terrorism" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:31, 7 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Haberstr-2009-07-07T18:31:00.000Z-History_of_Terrorism"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Haberstr-2009-07-07T18:31:00.000Z-History_of_Terrorism"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="ANI_thread" data-mw-thread-id="h-ANI_thread-2009-07-30T08:47:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-ANI_thread-2009-07-30T08:47:00.000Z"></span>ANI thread<span data-mw-comment-end="h-ANI_thread-2009-07-30T08:47:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Quantpole-2009-07-30T08:47:00.000Z-ANI_thread"></span>Hi, I have started a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#History_of_terrorism" title="Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents">discussion</a> at WP:ANI about the disruption at <a href="/wiki/History_of_terrorism" title="History of terrorism">History of terrorism</a> that you may be involved in. <a href="/wiki/User:Quantpole" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Quantpole">Quantpole</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Quantpole" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Quantpole">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Quantpole-2009-07-30T08:47:00.000Z-ANI_thread" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:47, 30 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Quantpole-2009-07-30T08:47:00.000Z-ANI_thread"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Quantpole-2009-07-30T08:47:00.000Z-ANI_thread"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Qutb" data-mw-thread-id="h-Qutb-2009-07-30T16:02:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Qutb-2009-07-30T16:02:00.000Z"></span>Qutb<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Qutb-2009-07-30T16:02:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-BoogaLouie-2009-07-30T16:02:00.000Z-Qutb"></span>Please explain on the Qutb talk page why you are <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sayyid_Qutb&diff=304958943&oldid=304919379">reverting</a> my edits. I've given <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sayyid_Qutb#Deletion_in_lead">my explanation</a> for the edits. --<a href="/wiki/User:BoogaLouie" class="mw-redirect" title="User:BoogaLouie">BoogaLouie</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BoogaLouie" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:BoogaLouie">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-BoogaLouie-2009-07-30T16:02:00.000Z-Qutb" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:02, 30 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-BoogaLouie-2009-07-30T16:02:00.000Z-Qutb"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-BoogaLouie-2009-07-30T16:02:00.000Z-Qutb"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-BoogaLouie-2009-07-31T15:55:00.000Z-Qutb"></span>Please respond to my question. Why did you feel the need to <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sayyid_Qutb&diff=next&oldid=304919379">delete</a> <i>it was necessary to purge the `moral corruption` of the overthrown monarchy with a `just dictatorship` that would `grant political liberties to the virtuous alone</i> from the Qutb article? --<a href="/wiki/User:BoogaLouie" class="mw-redirect" title="User:BoogaLouie">BoogaLouie</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BoogaLouie" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:BoogaLouie">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-BoogaLouie-2009-07-31T15:55:00.000Z-Qutb" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:55, 31 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-BoogaLouie-2009-07-31T15:55:00.000Z-Qutb"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-BoogaLouie-2009-07-31T15:55:00.000Z-Qutb"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Haberstr-2009-07-31T21:00:00.000Z-BoogaLouie-2009-07-31T15:55:00.000Z"></span>What is on the page should be a consensual compromise between your point of view and that of the person with whom you have been having a very very long and detailed disagreement with on the talk page. Your rendition of Qutb's point of view makes it seems as if he contends that in all times and contexts he supports instituting "a 'just dictatorship' that would 'grant political liberties to the virtuous alone.'" That doesn't seem supported by the facts, but that he would support or would've supported a dictatorship in some contexts seems accurate to me, and perhaps roughly halfway between the two points of view taking up most of the talkpage.<a href="/wiki/User:Haberstr" title="User:Haberstr">Haberstr</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Haberstr-2009-07-31T21:00:00.000Z-BoogaLouie-2009-07-31T15:55:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:00, 31 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Haberstr-2009-07-31T21:00:00.000Z-BoogaLouie-2009-07-31T15:55:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Haberstr-2009-07-31T21:00:00.000Z-BoogaLouie-2009-07-31T15:55:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-BoogaLouie-2009-08-01T15:15:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-07-31T21:00:00.000Z"></span>Please read the <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sayyid_Qutb&diff=prev&oldid=304919379">article section</a>:</dd> <dd>"Whether he espoused dictatorship, <i>or later</i> rule by Sharia law with essentially no government at all,.... Qutb argued <i>(at that time)</i> that it was necessary to purge the `moral corruption` of the overthrown monarchy with a `just dictatorship` that would `grant political liberties to the virtuous alone.`[21]" (italics added)</dd> <dd>... i.e. the wording clearly <i>does not</i> "makes it seems as if he contends that in all times and contexts he supports instituting "a 'just dictatorship' that would 'grant political liberties to the virtuous alone.'" --<a href="/wiki/User:BoogaLouie" class="mw-redirect" title="User:BoogaLouie">BoogaLouie</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BoogaLouie" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:BoogaLouie">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-BoogaLouie-2009-08-01T15:15:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-07-31T21:00:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:15, 1 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-BoogaLouie-2009-08-01T15:15:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-07-31T21:00:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-BoogaLouie-2009-08-01T15:15:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-07-31T21:00:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Haberstr-2009-08-03T18:55:00.000Z-BoogaLouie-2009-08-01T15:15:00.000Z"></span>Your revision leads the reader to think that, at that time, Qutb advocated dictatorship as his general preference, rather than as what he something he compared positively to one or more of the options he felt were available at that historic moment in Egypt. Also, wouldn't anyone with a brain state that a just dictatorship is better (okay, and more Islamic) than a tyrannous dictatorship? That's not an important enough 'insight' into Qutb's thinking to warrant placement in a limited or even large encyclopedia space. So, your 'dictatorship' sentence about Qutb seems pointless unless it implies something to you that doesn't seem to be there on its face.<a href="/wiki/User:Haberstr" title="User:Haberstr">Haberstr</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Haberstr-2009-08-03T18:55:00.000Z-BoogaLouie-2009-08-01T15:15:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:55, 3 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Haberstr-2009-08-03T18:55:00.000Z-BoogaLouie-2009-08-01T15:15:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Haberstr-2009-08-03T18:55:00.000Z-BoogaLouie-2009-08-01T15:15:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-BoogaLouie-2009-08-05T18:39:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-08-03T18:55:00.000Z"></span>Aren't you making some rather big assumptions about what Qutb believed? <s>Why do you assume that (at this time) he was only calling for a just dictatorship rather than a tyrannical dictatorship?</s></dd> <dd>Here is a quote from the book: <i>Radical Islam : Medieval Theology and Modern Politics,</i> Sivan, Emmanuel, Yale University, 1985</dd> <dd><blockquote><p>While [Abul Ala] Maudoodi exerted himself to prove that Islam is democratic as evidenced by the institution of shura... Sayyid Qutb was skeptical of that approach already in the early 1950s. In an `open letter` to General [Muhammad] Naguib published two weeks after the July 1952 Revolution, he excoriated the constitution of the ancien regime as a vehicle of moral corruption; no purge was possible, he argued, without a `just dictatorship` that would `grant political liberties to the virtuous alone.` (Source: letter in al-Akhbar, August 8, 1952.) </p></blockquote></dd> <dd>Do you have any reason to believe that he didn't want a just pious dictatorship to eliminate the remnants of what he saw as the corrupt and incompetent pro-Western constitutional monarchy?</dd> <dd><i>That's not an important enough 'insight' into Qutb's thinking to warrant placement in a limited or even large encyclopedia space.</i></dd> <dd>That's why you deleted it??? it wasn't important and you wanted to conserve space? It's one, maybe two lines long!!! It explains why he wanted a dictatorship - to "purge the `moral corruption` of the overthrown monarchy" - and what kind he wanted - one "that would `grant political liberties to the virtuous alone.`!!! --<a href="/wiki/User:BoogaLouie" class="mw-redirect" title="User:BoogaLouie">BoogaLouie</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BoogaLouie" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:BoogaLouie">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-BoogaLouie-2009-08-05T18:39:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-08-03T18:55:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:39, 5 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-BoogaLouie-2009-08-05T18:39:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-08-03T18:55:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-BoogaLouie-2009-08-05T18:39:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-08-03T18:55:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Haberstr-2009-08-06T19:00:00.000Z-BoogaLouie-2009-08-05T18:39:00.000Z"></span>Your rendition of what Qutb thinks makes it seem like he wants dictatorship for all times and places rather than, hypothetically, as better than the monarchy in a single country at a single point in its history. Revise accordingly.<a href="/wiki/User:Haberstr" title="User:Haberstr">Haberstr</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Haberstr-2009-08-06T19:00:00.000Z-BoogaLouie-2009-08-05T18:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:00, 6 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Haberstr-2009-08-06T19:00:00.000Z-BoogaLouie-2009-08-05T18:39:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Haberstr-2009-08-06T19:00:00.000Z-BoogaLouie-2009-08-05T18:39:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Haberstr-2009-08-07T23:04:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-08-06T19:00:00.000Z"></span>What are you talking about? Look at the italicized parts. "Whether he espoused dictatorship, <i>or later</i> rule by Sharia law with essentially no government at all,.... Qutb argued <i>(at that time)</i> that it was necessary to purge the `moral corruption` of the overthrown monarchy with a `just dictatorship` that would `grant political liberties to the virtuous alone.`[21]" (italics added)</dd> <dd>How can they indicate "he wants dictatorship for all times and places"???? <dl><dd>YOUR speculation ("Whether he espoused dictatorship, or later rule by Sharia law with essentially no government at all,.... ") comes first (why?), when it likely (if unsupported by more than your OR) should not be there at all.<a href="/wiki/User:Haberstr" title="User:Haberstr">Haberstr</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Haberstr-2009-08-07T23:04:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-08-06T19:00:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:04, 7 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Haberstr-2009-08-07T23:04:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-08-06T19:00:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Haberstr-2009-08-07T23:04:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-08-06T19:00:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-BoogaLouie-2009-08-25T23:03:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-08-07T23:04:00.000Z"></span>Please answer the question. What evidence do you have that the wording you deleted suggests "he wants dictatorship for all times and places"? --<a href="/wiki/User:BoogaLouie" class="mw-redirect" title="User:BoogaLouie">BoogaLouie</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BoogaLouie" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:BoogaLouie">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-BoogaLouie-2009-08-25T23:03:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-08-07T23:04:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:03, 25 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-BoogaLouie-2009-08-25T23:03:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-08-07T23:04:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-BoogaLouie-2009-08-25T23:03:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-08-07T23:04:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Haberstr-2009-08-26T22:06:00.000Z-BoogaLouie-2009-08-25T23:03:00.000Z"></span>I am answering the question: your structuring into your sentence your own expansive speculation, cited to no one. Can't you see that's a very wide-ranging bit of speculation? Cite it to someone or leave it out. Would you allow this into an article, say, on Abraham Lincoln, without any cite: "Whether he espoused the inherent inferiority negroes or more or less believed them equal to the caucasians, we can only speculate." No, you would not. Have a respected cite for seemingly wild speculation.<a href="/wiki/User:Haberstr" title="User:Haberstr">Haberstr</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Haberstr-2009-08-26T22:06:00.000Z-BoogaLouie-2009-08-25T23:03:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:06, 26 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Haberstr-2009-08-26T22:06:00.000Z-BoogaLouie-2009-08-25T23:03:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Haberstr-2009-08-26T22:06:00.000Z-BoogaLouie-2009-08-25T23:03:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-BoogaLouie-2009-08-26T22:25:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-08-26T22:06:00.000Z"></span>That's not what you <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sayyid_Qutb&diff=next&oldid=304919379">deleted</a> (or at least not the deletion I was asking about). You deleted <i>it was necessary to purge the `moral corruption` of the overthrown monarchy with a `just dictatorship` that would `grant political liberties to the virtuous alone from the Qutb article</i>. Why?--<a href="/wiki/User:BoogaLouie" class="mw-redirect" title="User:BoogaLouie">BoogaLouie</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BoogaLouie" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:BoogaLouie">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-BoogaLouie-2009-08-26T22:25:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-08-26T22:06:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:25, 26 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-BoogaLouie-2009-08-26T22:25:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-08-26T22:06:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-BoogaLouie-2009-08-26T22:25:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-08-26T22:06:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Haberstr-2009-08-26T22:48:00.000Z-BoogaLouie-2009-08-26T22:25:00.000Z"></span>What is on the page should be a consensual compromise between your point of view and that of the person with whom you have been having a very very long and detailed disagreement with on the talk page. Your rendition of Qutb's point of view makes it seems as if he contends that in all times and contexts he supports instituting "a 'just dictatorship' that would 'grant political liberties to the virtuous alone.'" That doesn't seem supported by the facts, but that he would support or would've supported a dictatorship in some contexts seems accurate to me, and perhaps roughly halfway between the two points of view taking up most of the talkpage.<a href="/wiki/User:Haberstr" title="User:Haberstr">Haberstr</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Haberstr-2009-08-26T22:48:00.000Z-BoogaLouie-2009-08-26T22:25:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:48, 26 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Haberstr-2009-08-26T22:48:00.000Z-BoogaLouie-2009-08-26T22:25:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Haberstr-2009-08-26T22:48:00.000Z-BoogaLouie-2009-08-26T22:25:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-BoogaLouie-2009-08-28T20:51:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-08-26T22:48:00.000Z"></span>You can repeat yourself but I am not going to stop asking you until you've answered my question. Why did you delete <i>"it was necessary to purge the `moral corruption` of the overthrown monarchy with a `just dictatorship` that would `grant political liberties to the virtuous alone`"</i> from the Qutb article?</dd> <dd><i>Your rendition of Qutb's point of view makes it seems as if he contends that in all times and contexts he supports instituting "a 'just dictatorship' that would 'grant political liberties to the virtuous alone.'" </i></dd> <dd>No it does not. The wording in the section makes sure of that</dd> <dd>"Whether he espoused dictatorship, <i>or later</i> rule by Sharia law with essentially no government at all,.... Qutb argued <i>(at that time)</i> that it was necessary to purge the `moral corruption` of the overthrown monarchy with a `just dictatorship` that would `grant political liberties to the virtuous alone.`[21]" (italics added)</dd> <dd>You don't like that wording: <i>your structuring into your sentence your own expansive speculation, cited to no one. Can't you see that's a very wide-ranging bit of speculation? Cite it to someone or leave it out. Would you allow this into an article, say, on Abraham Lincoln, without any cite: "Whether he espoused the inherent inferiority negroes or more or less believed them equal to the caucasians, we can only speculate." No, you would not. Have a respected cite for seemingly wild speculation.</i></dd> <dd>So why didn't you delete the "expansive speculation" instead of factiod on dictatorship with a scholarly source? And where is the "very wide-ranging bit of speculation" anyway? The dictatorship and no-government-at-all espousals are both cited in the article. The point does not end with "we can only speculate." It ends with: <i>"Sayyid Qutb's mature political views always centered on Islam."</i></dd> <dd><i>What is on the page should be a consensual compromise between your point of view and that of the person with whom you have been having a very very long and detailed disagre.</i> You're deleting information from a scholarly source to help the process of consensual compromise along? --<a href="/wiki/User:BoogaLouie" class="mw-redirect" title="User:BoogaLouie">BoogaLouie</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BoogaLouie" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:BoogaLouie">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-BoogaLouie-2009-08-28T20:51:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-08-26T22:48:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:51, 28 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-BoogaLouie-2009-08-28T20:51:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-08-26T22:48:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-BoogaLouie-2009-08-28T20:51:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-08-26T22:48:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Nizar_Rayan_-_again" data-mw-thread-id="h-Nizar_Rayan_-_again-2009-08-23T19:35:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Nizar_Rayan_-_again-2009-08-23T19:35:00.000Z"></span>Nizar Rayan - again<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Nizar_Rayan_-_again-2009-08-23T19:35:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tiamut-2009-08-23T19:35:00.000Z-Nizar_Rayan_-_again"></span>Hi there. I noticed that you made a lot of very good edits to <a href="/wiki/Nizar_Rayan" title="Nizar Rayan">Nizar Rayan</a> incorporating some of what Brewcrewer added and discarding the rest. He is reverting to reinstate his version form June 7, 2009, claiming he can do so because no one explained what was wrong with his version. Perhaps you would like to join the discussion? (I know I wouldn't, given past experiences with this article, but I thought I'd let you know anyway). <a href="/wiki/User:Tiamut" title="User:Tiamut"><b><font color="#B93B8F">T</font><font color="#800000">i</font><font color="#B93B8F">a</font><font color="#800000">m</font><font color="#B93B8F">u</font><font color="#800000">t</font></b></a><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tiamut" title="User talk:Tiamut">talk</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Tiamut-2009-08-23T19:35:00.000Z-Nizar_Rayan_-_again" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:35, 23 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tiamut-2009-08-23T19:35:00.000Z-Nizar_Rayan_-_again"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tiamut-2009-08-23T19:35:00.000Z-Nizar_Rayan_-_again"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tiamut-2009-08-27T11:14:00.000Z-Tiamut-2009-08-23T19:35:00.000Z"></span>Hey, its okay if you're busy, since things have died down for the time being. Just wanted you to know what was happening in case you wanted to join in. Hope you are doing well. <a href="/wiki/User:Tiamut" title="User:Tiamut"><b><font color="#B93B8F">T</font><font color="#800000">i</font><font color="#B93B8F">a</font><font color="#800000">m</font><font color="#B93B8F">u</font><font color="#800000">t</font></b></a><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tiamut" title="User talk:Tiamut">talk</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Tiamut-2009-08-27T11:14:00.000Z-Tiamut-2009-08-23T19:35:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:14, 27 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tiamut-2009-08-27T11:14:00.000Z-Tiamut-2009-08-23T19:35:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tiamut-2009-08-27T11:14:00.000Z-Tiamut-2009-08-23T19:35:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tiamut-2009-11-13T20:56:00.000Z-Tiamut-2009-08-27T11:14:00.000Z"></span>Hi there. I'll try to take a look but I'm a little busy in real life these days, so please forgive if there is little I can do. Perhaps dropping a note at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:IPCOLL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:IPCOLL">WP:IPCOLL</a> or <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PALESTINE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PALESTINE">WP:PALESTINE</a> will help to bring in some extra eyes. Happy editing Haberstr. <a href="/wiki/User:Tiamut" title="User:Tiamut"><b><font color="#B93B8F">T</font><font color="#800000">i</font><font color="#B93B8F">a</font><font color="#800000">m</font><font color="#B93B8F">u</font><font color="#800000">t</font></b></a><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tiamut" title="User talk:Tiamut">talk</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Tiamut-2009-11-13T20:56:00.000Z-Tiamut-2009-08-27T11:14:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:56, 13 November 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tiamut-2009-11-13T20:56:00.000Z-Tiamut-2009-08-27T11:14:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tiamut-2009-11-13T20:56:00.000Z-Tiamut-2009-08-27T11:14:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Mediation_at_History_of_terrorism" data-mw-thread-id="h-Mediation_at_History_of_terrorism-2009-11-05T16:36:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Mediation_at_History_of_terrorism-2009-11-05T16:36:00.000Z"></span>Mediation at <a href="/wiki/History_of_terrorism" title="History of terrorism">History of terrorism</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Mediation_at_History_of_terrorism-2009-11-05T16:36:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Atama-2009-11-05T16:36:00.000Z-Mediation_at_History_of_terrorism"></span>Hello, a request for informal mediation was made at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2009-10-21/History_of_terrorism" title="Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-10-21/History of terrorism">the Mediation Cabal</a> regarding the <a href="/wiki/History_of_terrorism" title="History of terrorism">history of terrorism</a> article you have edited recently. I have asked at the [Talk:History of terrorism#Informal Mediation|talk page]] of the article whether anyone is interested in participating but I haven't had any responses. If you feel that mediation will help with the article and wish to participate, please let me know. I've been watching the article for a while now, and haven't seen much activity until today (when some potentially sensitive <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_terrorism&action=historysubmit&diff=324066279&oldid=323532014">changes were made</a>). If I have at least two people interested in participating in mediation I'll begin the process, otherwise I'll close the case. Thank you. -- <b><a href="/wiki/User:Atama" title="User:Atama"><span style="color:#06F">At</span><span style="color:#03B">am</span><span style="color:#006">a</span></a></b><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Atama" title="User talk:Atama"><span style="color:#000">頭</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Atama-2009-11-05T16:36:00.000Z-Mediation_at_History_of_terrorism" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:36, 5 November 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Atama-2009-11-05T16:36:00.000Z-Mediation_at_History_of_terrorism"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Atama-2009-11-05T16:36:00.000Z-Mediation_at_History_of_terrorism"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Haberstr-2009-11-05T23:31:00.000Z-Atama-2009-11-05T16:36:00.000Z"></span>I'm interested, not particularly hopeful but interested.<a href="/wiki/User:Haberstr" title="User:Haberstr">Haberstr</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Haberstr-2009-11-05T23:31:00.000Z-Atama-2009-11-05T16:36:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:31, 5 November 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Haberstr-2009-11-05T23:31:00.000Z-Atama-2009-11-05T16:36:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Haberstr-2009-11-05T23:31:00.000Z-Atama-2009-11-05T16:36:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Atama-2009-11-05T23:49:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-11-05T23:31:00.000Z"></span>Thank you, I'm waiting for Sherzo to respond as to whether or not to participate in the mediation. They seem to be an <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sherzo" title="Special:Contributions/Sherzo">infrequent editor</a> and may not respond for awhile. If I don't hear anything for a few days I'll close the mediation for lack of interest. -- <b><a href="/wiki/User:Atama" title="User:Atama"><span style="color:#06F">At</span><span style="color:#03B">am</span><span style="color:#006">a</span></a></b><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Atama" title="User talk:Atama"><span style="color:#000">頭</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Atama-2009-11-05T23:49:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-11-05T23:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:49, 5 November 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Atama-2009-11-05T23:49:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-11-05T23:31:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Atama-2009-11-05T23:49:00.000Z-Haberstr-2009-11-05T23:31:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Philip_Baird_Shearer-2009-12-13T20:55:00.000Z-Atama-2009-11-05T23:49:00.000Z"></span>Please see <a href="/wiki/Talk:History_of_terrorism#One_month_block_2009-12-12" title="Talk:History of terrorism">Talk:History of terrorism#One month block 2009-12-12</a> --<a href="/wiki/User:Philip_Baird_Shearer" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Philip Baird Shearer">PBS</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Philip_Baird_Shearer" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Philip Baird Shearer">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Philip_Baird_Shearer-2009-12-13T20:55:00.000Z-Atama-2009-11-05T23:49:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:55, 13 December 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Philip_Baird_Shearer-2009-12-13T20:55:00.000Z-Atama-2009-11-05T23:49:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Philip_Baird_Shearer-2009-12-13T20:55:00.000Z-Atama-2009-11-05T23:49:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Terror_bombing" data-mw-thread-id="h-Terror_bombing-2010-01-22T21:31:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Terror_bombing-2010-01-22T21:31:00.000Z"></span>Terror bombing<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Terror_bombing-2010-01-22T21:31:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Philip_Baird_Shearer-2010-01-22T21:31:00.000Z-Terror_bombing"></span>I happen to think that the <a href="/wiki/History_of_terrorism" title="History of terrorism">history of terrorism</a> is a very bad article, and I have made that clear on <a href="/wiki/Talk:History_of_terrorism" title="Talk:History of terrorism">the talk page</a> (search on "Any kind of periodization"). It is full of editorial OR and POV's. A much better way to write these articles is to approach it as a survey of different authors approaches similar to the approach in the article <a href="/wiki/Insurgency" title="Insurgency">Insurgency</a>. </p><p>After my rewrite of the terror bombing article which from the start had been nothing but OR and a POV minefield. I had intended the rewrite to be a the seed bed for the development in a new direction. But instead paragraphs were added that did nothing but list what the editors who added them thought were examples of terror bombing (using data mining techniques -- trawl the internet to find a line in a book or an article -- to support their positions) which did nothing but recreate the POV list. </p><p><a href="/wiki/Terror_bombing" class="mw-redirect" title="Terror bombing">Terror bombing</a> now links to a section in <a href="/wiki/Strategic_bombing" title="Strategic bombing">Strategic bombing</a> most of the information that was in terror bombing is now in that article and the article contains a list of bombing incidents/campaigns which can be labelled either way see <a href="/wiki/Terror_bombing#Strategic_bombing_events" class="mw-redirect" title="Terror bombing">Terror bombing#Strategic bombing events</a>. The article is far from perfect but using a NPOV title helps in the writing of a NPOV articles. Why not develop that article? -- <a href="/wiki/User:Philip_Baird_Shearer" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Philip Baird Shearer">PBS</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Philip_Baird_Shearer" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Philip Baird Shearer">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Philip_Baird_Shearer-2010-01-22T21:31:00.000Z-Terror_bombing" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:31, 22 January 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Philip_Baird_Shearer-2010-01-22T21:31:00.000Z-Terror_bombing"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Philip_Baird_Shearer-2010-01-22T21:31:00.000Z-Terror_bombing"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Haberstr-2010-01-22T22:37:00.000Z-Philip_Baird_Shearer-2010-01-22T21:31:00.000Z"></span>Accuracy matters. No one considers the bombing of Guernica a 'strategic bombing event'. That should've been the end of trying to meld 'terror' into 'strategic'. "Alleged terrorist bombings" is the best we can do to create NPOV. It simply disorganizes the encyclopedia, it doesn't solve anything or 'reduce POV' to falsely classify alleged terrorist bombings as, instead, (apparently) alleged strategic bombing. I guess unwittingly you're just redefining 'strategic' as 'terrorist'. Actually, I'm not sure what you're doing, but logically, based on content, the title of 'strategic bombing' should be changed to 'strategic and alleged terror bombing' or something unwieldly like that. And that should tell you that two distinct topics (one 'nice' and the other 'controversial') are accidentally on purpose in the same encyclopedia item. Oh well, I think I understand and appreciate your motives, but it just won't work.<a href="/wiki/User:Haberstr" title="User:Haberstr">Haberstr</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Haberstr-2010-01-22T22:37:00.000Z-Philip_Baird_Shearer-2010-01-22T21:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:37, 22 January 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Haberstr-2010-01-22T22:37:00.000Z-Philip_Baird_Shearer-2010-01-22T21:31:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Haberstr-2010-01-22T22:37:00.000Z-Philip_Baird_Shearer-2010-01-22T21:31:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Haberstr-2010-01-22T22:59:00.000Z-Philip_Baird_Shearer-2010-01-22T21:31:00.000Z"></span>By the way, I definitely don't assert any sort of ownership over the present <a href="/wiki/History_of_terrorism" title="History of terrorism">history of terrorism</a> article. But, see section 2 <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_terrorism#Ancient_and_medieval_roots">[2]</a>, where I've condensed things and deleted sub-sub-section titles with groups' names on them. Condensation is the way to go, but it is a time-consuming process, and particularly hard and unrewarding when every such condensation is resisted ferociously by lovers of the old "history of terrorist groups" article.<a href="/wiki/User:Haberstr" title="User:Haberstr">Haberstr</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Haberstr-2010-01-22T22:59:00.000Z-Philip_Baird_Shearer-2010-01-22T21:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:59, 22 January 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Haberstr-2010-01-22T22:59:00.000Z-Philip_Baird_Shearer-2010-01-22T21:31:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Haberstr-2010-01-22T22:59:00.000Z-Philip_Baird_Shearer-2010-01-22T21:31:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="File_copyright_problem_with_File:Japanese_day_care_students_performing_at_their_sports_day.JPG" data-mw-thread-id="h-File_copyright_problem_with_File:Japanese_day_care_students_performing_at_their-2010-05-27T10:59:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-File_copyright_problem_with_File:Japanese_day_care_students_performing_at_their-2010-05-27T10:59:00.000Z"></span>File copyright problem with File:Japanese day care students performing at their sports day.JPG<span data-mw-comment-end="h-File_copyright_problem_with_File:Japanese_day_care_students_performing_at_their-2010-05-27T10:59:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sfan00_IMG-2010-05-27T10:59:00.000Z-File_copyright_problem_with_File:Japanese_day_care_students_performing_at_their"></span><figure class="mw-halign-left" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Copyright-problem.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cf/Copyright-problem.svg/64px-Copyright-problem.svg.png" decoding="async" width="64" height="69" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cf/Copyright-problem.svg/96px-Copyright-problem.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cf/Copyright-problem.svg/128px-Copyright-problem.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="111" data-file-height="120"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure> <p>Thank you for uploading <a href="/wiki/File:Japanese_day_care_students_performing_at_their_sports_day.JPG" title="File:Japanese day care students performing at their sports day.JPG">File:Japanese day care students performing at their sports day.JPG</a>. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Wikipedia takes <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyrights" title="Wikipedia:Copyrights">copyright</a> very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the <b>license</b> and the <b>source</b> of the file. If you know this information, then you can add a <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_copyright_tags" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Image copyright tags">copyright tag</a></b> to the <a href="/wiki/Help:Image_page" class="mw-redirect" title="Help:Image page">image description page</a>. </p><p>If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their license and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have created in <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=upload&user=Haberstr">your upload log</a>. </p><p>If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Media_copyright_questions" title="Wikipedia:Media copyright questions">media copyright questions page</a>. Thanks again for your cooperation. <a href="/wiki/User:Sfan00_IMG" title="User:Sfan00 IMG">Sfan00 IMG</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sfan00_IMG" title="User talk:Sfan00 IMG">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Sfan00_IMG-2010-05-27T10:59:00.000Z-File_copyright_problem_with_File:Japanese_day_care_students_performing_at_their" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:59, 27 May 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sfan00_IMG-2010-05-27T10:59:00.000Z-File_copyright_problem_with_File:Japanese_day_care_students_performing_at_their"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sfan00_IMG-2010-05-27T10:59:00.000Z-File_copyright_problem_with_File:Japanese_day_care_students_performing_at_their"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Edit_summaries" data-mw-thread-id="h-Edit_summaries-2010-05-27T18:16:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Edit_summaries-2010-05-27T18:16:00.000Z"></span>Edit summaries<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Edit_summaries-2010-05-27T18:16:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AzureFury-2010-05-27T18:16:00.000Z-Edit_summaries"></span>You should really get into the habit of using edit summaries, even on edits you believe to be uncontroversial. Bold red text on my watchlist without an edit summary is an auto-revert, it's unfair of you to expect other editors to try and read your mind. <a href="/wiki/User:AzureFury" title="User:AzureFury"><b><span style="color:blue">Azure</span><span style="color:red">Fury</span></b></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:AzureFury" title="User talk:AzureFury">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/AzureFury" title="Special:Contributions/AzureFury">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-AzureFury-2010-05-27T18:16:00.000Z-Edit_summaries" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:16, 27 May 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AzureFury-2010-05-27T18:16:00.000Z-Edit_summaries"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AzureFury-2010-05-27T18:16:00.000Z-Edit_summaries"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Haberstr-2010-05-27T19:07:00.000Z-AzureFury-2010-05-27T18:16:00.000Z"></span>I'll try; it was a complex edit that could not be described in one edit summary.<a href="/wiki/User:Haberstr" title="User:Haberstr">Haberstr</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Haberstr-2010-05-27T19:07:00.000Z-AzureFury-2010-05-27T18:16:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:07, 27 May 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Haberstr-2010-05-27T19:07:00.000Z-AzureFury-2010-05-27T18:16:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Haberstr-2010-05-27T19:07:00.000Z-AzureFury-2010-05-27T18:16:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AzureFury-2010-05-28T01:52:00.000Z-Haberstr-2010-05-27T19:07:00.000Z"></span>I recommend in that situation something along the lines of "see talk." <a href="/wiki/User:AzureFury" title="User:AzureFury"><b><span style="color:blue">Azure</span><span style="color:red">Fury</span></b></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:AzureFury" title="User talk:AzureFury">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/AzureFury" title="Special:Contributions/AzureFury">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-AzureFury-2010-05-28T01:52:00.000Z-Haberstr-2010-05-27T19:07:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:52, 28 May 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AzureFury-2010-05-28T01:52:00.000Z-Haberstr-2010-05-27T19:07:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AzureFury-2010-05-28T01:52:00.000Z-Haberstr-2010-05-27T19:07:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="History_of_terrorism_GA_review" data-mw-thread-id="h-History_of_terrorism_GA_review-2010-07-16T22:42:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-History_of_terrorism_GA_review-2010-07-16T22:42:00.000Z"></span>History of terrorism GA review<span data-mw-comment-end="h-History_of_terrorism_GA_review-2010-07-16T22:42:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Belovedfreak-2010-07-16T22:42:00.000Z-History_of_terrorism_GA_review"></span>Hello, I've reviewed <a href="/wiki/History_of_terrorism" title="History of terrorism">History of terrorism</a> against the GA criteria. Unfortunately the article's not quite there yet. I've left some comments at <a href="/wiki/Talk:History_of_terrorism/GA3" title="Talk:History of terrorism/GA3">the review page</a>. Regards, --<a href="/wiki/User:Belovedfreak" title="User:Belovedfreak"><span style="color:#006699; font-family: trebuchet">Beloved</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Belovedfreak" title="User talk:Belovedfreak"><span style="color:#336666; font-family: trebuchet">Freak</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Belovedfreak-2010-07-16T22:42:00.000Z-History_of_terrorism_GA_review" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:42, 16 July 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Belovedfreak-2010-07-16T22:42:00.000Z-History_of_terrorism_GA_review"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Belovedfreak-2010-07-16T22:42:00.000Z-History_of_terrorism_GA_review"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Haberstr-2010-07-23T21:17:00.000Z-Belovedfreak-2010-07-16T22:42:00.000Z"></span>Thanks for the review and comments. By the way, I disagreed with the excessive use of bold but it is/was a concession to the several editors who wanted to retain some emphasis on groups connected to terrorism.<a href="/wiki/User:Haberstr" title="User:Haberstr">Haberstr</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Haberstr-2010-07-23T21:17:00.000Z-Belovedfreak-2010-07-16T22:42:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:17, 23 July 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Haberstr-2010-07-23T21:17:00.000Z-Belovedfreak-2010-07-16T22:42:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Haberstr-2010-07-23T21:17:00.000Z-Belovedfreak-2010-07-16T22:42:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Prof_Berle" data-mw-thread-id="h-Prof_Berle-2010-08-18T17:59:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Prof_Berle-2010-08-18T17:59:00.000Z"></span>Prof Berle<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Prof_Berle-2010-08-18T17:59:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidea-2010-08-18T17:59:00.000Z-Prof_Berle"></span>Hello Haberstr. I wanted to ask your opinion on this page: <a href="/wiki/Adolf_A._Berle" title="Adolf A. Berle">Adolf A. Berle</a>. I had put him under the name <a href="/wiki/Adolph_A._Berle" class="mw-redirect" title="Adolph A. Berle">Adolph A. Berle</a> because it was the name that he used at the end of his life. In his article 'Property, Production and Revolution' (1965) <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.jstor.org/pss/1120512">65 Columbia Law Review 1</a>, which was in the Columbia Law Review, his 'home journal' this was the spelling. My guess is that after WW2, the spelling "Adolf" was no longer so popular. But I suppose the "right" spelling would be whatever he preferred. What do you think? <b><font color="red"><a href="/wiki/User:Wikidea" title="User:Wikidea">Wik</a></font><font color="gold"><a href="/wiki/User:Wikidea" title="User:Wikidea">idea</a></font></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Wikidea-2010-08-18T17:59:00.000Z-Prof_Berle" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:59, 18 August 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidea-2010-08-18T17:59:00.000Z-Prof_Berle"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidea-2010-08-18T17:59:00.000Z-Prof_Berle"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Haberstr-2010-08-19T16:32:00.000Z-Wikidea-2010-08-18T17:59:00.000Z"></span>Thanks for talking to me about this. Checking Amazon, his first name was often spelt "Adolf" after WWII, on various book covers and so on. He also often apparently used "A.A. Berle." In any case, I think it's best to go with the spelling that was and is by far the one most commonly used to refer to Berle. I wonder, in fact, whether the exception you note was an error committed by a law student editor. Is there some writing or statement by Berle himself (or his family) that he wanted to change the spelling of his first name?<a href="/wiki/User:Haberstr" title="User:Haberstr">Haberstr</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Haberstr-2010-08-19T16:32:00.000Z-Wikidea-2010-08-18T17:59:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:32, 19 August 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Haberstr-2010-08-19T16:32:00.000Z-Wikidea-2010-08-18T17:59:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Haberstr-2010-08-19T16:32:00.000Z-Wikidea-2010-08-18T17:59:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Gutting_Hamas_article" data-mw-thread-id="h-Gutting_Hamas_article-2010-09-10T01:07:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Gutting_Hamas_article-2010-09-10T01:07:00.000Z"></span>Gutting Hamas article<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Gutting_Hamas_article-2010-09-10T01:07:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikifan12345-2010-09-10T01:07:00.000Z-Gutting_Hamas_article"></span>You must <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hamas#Discussion_discussion_discussion">explain</a> heavy additions to the article, especially when removing cited material. My edits were thorough and precise, you <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hamas&diff=383894063&oldid=383893628">removed numerous sentences</a> that were supported by the WSJ source and added words that came from no references (in other words, original research). <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hamas&diff=383897299&oldid=383894063">These types of edits</a> are a problem. Your reasoning, "delete heavy POV by Wikifan12345, but will revise with subsequent NPOV revisions" is not <b>acceptable</b> </p><p>Keep in mind I/P is under general sanctions and edit warring will result in a topic-ban. thanks. <a href="/wiki/User:Wikifan12345" title="User:Wikifan12345">Wikifan12345</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikifan12345" title="User talk:Wikifan12345">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Wikifan12345-2010-09-10T01:07:00.000Z-Gutting_Hamas_article" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:07, 10 September 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikifan12345-2010-09-10T01:07:00.000Z-Gutting_Hamas_article"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikifan12345-2010-09-10T01:07:00.000Z-Gutting_Hamas_article"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Haberstr-2010-09-10T20:08:00.000Z-Wikifan12345-2010-09-10T01:07:00.000Z"></span>The Hamas article is an encyclopedia article rather than "the complete case against Hamas." The latter attitude is what has generated the now 145,240 bytes article you demand. Let's use good judgment regarding what an encyclopedia article attempts to do: for example, use examples to make a point rather than writing down EVERY example that makes exactly the same point about Hamas.<a href="/wiki/User:Haberstr" title="User:Haberstr">Haberstr</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Haberstr-2010-09-10T20:08:00.000Z-Wikifan12345-2010-09-10T01:07:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:08, 10 September 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Haberstr-2010-09-10T20:08:00.000Z-Wikifan12345-2010-09-10T01:07:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Haberstr-2010-09-10T20:08:00.000Z-Wikifan12345-2010-09-10T01:07:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikifan12345-2010-09-11T03:34:00.000Z-Haberstr-2010-09-10T20:08:00.000Z"></span>This has nothing to do with me Haberstr. You removed cited material because you simply didn't like it. Like you said, the Hamas article is an encyclopedic article. If you want to promote a more personal view of Hamas please create a blog. <a href="/wiki/User:Wikifan12345" title="User:Wikifan12345">Wikifan12345</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikifan12345" title="User talk:Wikifan12345">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Wikifan12345-2010-09-11T03:34:00.000Z-Haberstr-2010-09-10T20:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:34, 11 September 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikifan12345-2010-09-11T03:34:00.000Z-Haberstr-2010-09-10T20:08:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikifan12345-2010-09-11T03:34:00.000Z-Haberstr-2010-09-10T20:08:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Canvassing" title="Canvassing"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Hope&Act3!-2010-09-11T19:25:00.000Z-Wikifan12345-2010-09-11T03:34:00.000Z"></span>canvassing</a> <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tiamut&curid=5378245&diff=384086706&oldid=383547712">[3]</a><a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:PeterSymonds&diff=prev&oldid=384087245">[4]</a> in order to raise an army of your own? <a href="/wiki/User:Hope%26Act3!" title="User:Hope&Act3!">Hope&Act3!</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hope%26Act3!" title="User talk:Hope&Act3!">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haberstr#c-Hope&Act3!-2010-09-11T19:25:00.000Z-Wikifan12345-2010-09-11T03:34:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:25, 11 September 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Hope&Act3!-2010-09-11T19:25:00.000Z-Wikifan12345-2010-09-11T03:34:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Hope&Act3!-2010-09-11T19:25:00.000Z-Wikifan12345-2010-09-11T03:34:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Haberstr&oldid=384248827">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Haberstr&oldid=384248827</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks catlinks-allhidden" data-mw="interface"></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 11 September 2010, at 19:25<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright"><span class="nowraplinks">This version of the page has been <a href="/wiki/Help:Page_history" title="Help:Page history">revised</a>. 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