Recent history of minimal length scale?

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name="apple-mobile-web-app-title" content="Physics Forums"> <link rel="apple-touch-icon" href="https://www.physicsforums.com/misc/PhysicsForums_logo_192.png"> <meta name="description" content="I noticed that the three seed articles about space-time quantisation are aligned in 1994. https://inspirehep.net/literature/371960 Garay..." /> <meta property="og:description" content="I noticed that the three seed articles about space-time quantisation are aligned in 1994. https://inspirehep.net/literature/371960 Garay https://inspirehep.net/literature/386329 Doplicher et al https://inspirehep.net/literature/379391 Rovelly-Smolin I wonder, does anybody remember why this..." /> <meta property="twitter:description" content="I noticed that the three seed articles about space-time quantisation are aligned in 1994. https://inspirehep.net/literature/371960 Garay https://inspirehep.net/literature/386329 Doplicher et al..." /> <meta property="og:url" 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</h1> </div> <div class="p-description"> <ul class="listInline listInline--bullet"> <li> <span data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Level: Advanced (Grad)" ><span class="prefix advanced" dir="auto">A</span></span> </li> <li> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-user" aria-hidden="true" title="Thread starter"></i> <span class="u-srOnly">Thread starter</span> <span>arivero</span> </li> <li> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-clock" aria-hidden="true" title="Start date"></i> <span class="u-srOnly">Start date</span> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-09-14T11:35:38-0500" data-time="1726331738" data-date-string="Sep 14, 2024" data-time-string="11:35 AM" title="Sep 14, 2024 at 11:35 AM">Sep 14, 2024</time> </li> <li> <dl class="tagList tagList--thread-1065682 "> <dt> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-tags" aria-hidden="true" title="Tags"></i> <span class="u-srOnly">Tags</span> </dt> <dd> <span class="js-tagList"> <a href="/tags/history/" data-xf-init="preview-tooltip" data-preview-url="/tags/history/preview" class="tagItem tagItem--tag_history" dir="auto"> History </a> <a href="/tags/length/" data-xf-init="preview-tooltip" data-preview-url="/tags/length/preview" class="tagItem tagItem--tag_length" dir="auto"> Length </a> </span> </dd> </dl> </li> </ul> </div> </div> <script src="https://www.physicsforums.com/check-for-tex.js" defer></script> <div class="block block--messages" data-xf-init="" data-type="post" data-href="/inline-mod/" data-search-target="*"> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="posts"></span> <div class="block-outer"></div> <div class="block-outer js-threadStatusField"></div> <div class="block-container lbContainer" data-xf-init="lightbox select-to-quote" data-message-selector=".js-post" data-lb-id="thread-1065682" data-lb-universal="0"> <div class="block-body js-replyNewMessageContainer">  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="arivero" data-content="post-7119308" id="js-post-7119308" > <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7119308"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-09-14T11:35:38-0500" data-time="1726331738" data-date-string="Sep 14, 2024" data-time-string="11:35 AM" title="Sep 14, 2024 at 11:35 AM">Sep 14, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7119308/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #1 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" > <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><span class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="81">arivero</span></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>  <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>3,481</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>175</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7119308" data-lb-caption-desc="arivero · Sep 14, 2024 at 11:35 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div > <div class="bbWrapper">I noticed that the three seed articles about space-time quantisation are aligned in 1994.<br /> <br /> <a href="https://inspirehep.net/literature/371960" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">https://inspirehep.net/literature/371960</a> Garay<br /> <a href="https://inspirehep.net/literature/386329" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">https://inspirehep.net/literature/386329</a> Doplicher et al<br /> <a href="https://inspirehep.net/literature/379391" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">https://inspirehep.net/literature/379391</a> Rovelly-Smolin<br /> <br /> I wonder, does anybody remember why this kind of research was triggered then? Was it some new mathematical insight or technique? Or some basic paper or talk that launched the business.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> <div class="googleads_fixed"> <script async src="https://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/js/adsbygoogle.js?client=ca-pub-6580726045122001" crossorigin="anonymous"></script>  <ins class="adsbygoogle" style="display:block" data-ad-client="ca-pub-6580726045122001" data-ad-slot="3049969336" data-ad-format="auto" data-full-width-responsive="true"></ins> <script> (adsbygoogle = window.adsbygoogle || []).push({}); </script> </div> </article> </div> <div class="message-lastEdit"> Last edited: <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-09-14T18:20:19-0500" data-time="1726356019" data-date-string="Sep 14, 2024" data-time-string="6:20 PM" title="Sep 14, 2024 at 6:20 PM">Sep 14, 2024</time> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <div class="message-cell message-cell--main" id="post-physorg"> <a href="https://phys.org/physics-news/" target="_blank">Physics news</a> on Phys.org <ul class="phys_items"> <li><a href="https://phys.org/news/2025-02-unexpected-nucleus-prompts-reevaluation-atomic.html" target="_blank">Unexpected shape of lead-208 nucleus prompts reevaluation of atomic nuclei models</a></li> <li><a href="https://phys.org/news/2025-02-scientists-elusive-liquid-transition-deep.html" target="_blank">Scientists map elusive liquid-liquid transition point using deep neural network</a></li> <li><a href="https://phys.org/news/2025-02-links-disparate-pion-reactions-nuclear.html" target="_blank">New calculation links disparate pion reactions in nuclear physics</a></li> </ul> </div> <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="Vanadium 50" data-content="post-7119360" id="js-post-7119360" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7119360/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/recent-history-of-minimal-length-scale.1065682/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7119360"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-09-14T17:29:43-0500" data-time="1726352983" data-date-string="Sep 14, 2024" data-time-string="5:29 PM" title="Sep 14, 2024 at 5:29 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Sep 14, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7119360/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #2 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/vanadium-50.110252/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/vanadium-50.110252/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/vanadium-50.110252/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="110252" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">Vanadium 50</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-shield" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Retired Mentor"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-shield" aria-hidden="true" style="font-size:12px;color:#990033;"></i><span> Staff Emeritus</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-book" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Academia"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-book" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Education Advisor</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>35,001</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>21,677</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7119360" data-lb-caption-desc="Vanadium 50 · Sep 14, 2024 at 5:29 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper">I have a hard time thinking of 28 years ago as "recent", nor of 3 papers as a trend. I assume there is no answer to your question in the papers themselves or their references, so I would chalk it up to coincidence.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="arivero" data-content="post-7119364" id="js-post-7119364" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7119364/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/recent-history-of-minimal-length-scale.1065682/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7119364"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-09-14T18:20:07-0500" data-time="1726356007" data-date-string="Sep 14, 2024" data-time-string="6:20 PM" title="Sep 14, 2024 at 6:20 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Sep 14, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7119364/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #3 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/arivero.81/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/arivero.81/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><span class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="81"><span itemprop="name">arivero</span></span></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>  <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>3,481</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>175</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7119364" data-lb-caption-desc="arivero · Sep 14, 2024 at 6:20 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper">Only the first one from Garay cites old references on the topic, and only a two old ones that didn't start to get regular citations until this year (1994), <a href="https://inspirehep.net/literature/46600" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">https://inspirehep.net/literature/46600</a> Mead and <a href="https://inspirehep.net/literature/220203" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">https://inspirehep.net/literature/220203</a> Padmanabhaan, the later definitely impulsed by Sabine Hossenfelder review of the topic in 2012, <a href="https://inspirehep.net/literature/1095226" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">https://inspirehep.net/literature/1095226</a>.<br /> <br /> There is an interview with Mead elsewhere where he explains that nobody was ready to take a minimal distance seriously. So 1996 could be a coincidence but of a different tone, the moment that the discoveries from String Theory, Non Commutative Geometry and Loops make the idea palatable for the audience.<br /> <br /> By the way, the motivation to look now into this is the recent public demolition, by Sabine, of a paper arguing very hand-wavy about relations between gravity and quantisation; I was trying to compare the old arguments with the one given in the old physicsforums thread<br /> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/calculating-the-quantum-kepler-length-of-a-particle.14007/" class="link link--internal">https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/calculating-the-quantum-kepler-length-of-a-particle.14007/</a>, that I uploaded to <a href="https://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0404086" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">https://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0404086</a> . What I find a bit puzzling is that the idea of "Kepler Length" does not extend to General Relativity, as it has not a covariant presentation. So Compton Length only emerges in the non-relativistic limit.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> <div class="googleads_fixed"> <script async src="https://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/js/adsbygoogle.js?client=ca-pub-6580726045122001" crossorigin="anonymous"></script>  <ins class="adsbygoogle" style="display:block" data-ad-client="ca-pub-6580726045122001" data-ad-slot="5961342082" data-ad-format="auto" data-full-width-responsive="true"></ins> <script> (adsbygoogle = window.adsbygoogle || []).push({}); </script> </div> </article> </div> <div class="message-lastEdit"> Last edited: <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-09-14T18:36:41-0500" data-time="1726357001" data-date-string="Sep 14, 2024" data-time-string="6:36 PM" title="Sep 14, 2024 at 6:36 PM" itemprop="dateModified">Sep 14, 2024</time> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="Hengri" data-content="post-7120680" id="js-post-7120680" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7120680/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/recent-history-of-minimal-length-scale.1065682/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7120680"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-09-21T09:47:43-0500" data-time="1726930063" data-date-string="Sep 21, 2024" data-time-string="9:47 AM" title="Sep 21, 2024 at 9:47 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Sep 21, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7120680/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #4 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/hengri.573109/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/hengri.573109/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><span class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="573109"><span itemprop="name">Hengri</span></span></span>     </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>4</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>0</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7120680" data-lb-caption-desc="Hengri · Sep 21, 2024 at 9:47 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper">The Planck-Einstein relation: <i>E = h f</i> and <i>c = f λ </i> [<i>λ</i> <i>= </i>wave length].<br /> It shows that the wave length is the only non-constant. That is remarkable because the equation represent physical reality. So how is it possible that the wave length isn't a multiple of a constant of length (the minimal length scale). Moreover, electromagnetic waves arrives from everywhere, thus the constant of length is directly related to the unit of quantised space. Or better, it shows the structure of the basic quantum fields.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList is-active"> <ul class="reactionSummary"> <li><span class="reaction reaction--small reaction--6" data-reaction-id="6"><i aria-hidden="true"></i><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="reaction-sprite js-reaction" alt="Skeptical" title="Skeptical" /></span></li> </ul> <span class="u-srOnly">Likes</span> <bdi>weirdoguy</bdi> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="ohwilleke" data-content="post-7120962" id="js-post-7120962" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7120962/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/recent-history-of-minimal-length-scale.1065682/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7120962"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-09-22T15:52:51-0500" data-time="1727038371" data-date-string="Sep 22, 2024" data-time-string="3:52 PM" title="Sep 22, 2024 at 3:52 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Sep 22, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7120962/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #5 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/ohwilleke.19562/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/ohwilleke.19562/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><span class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="19562"><span itemprop="name">ohwilleke</span></span></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>2,578</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>1,530</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7120962" data-lb-caption-desc="ohwilleke · Sep 22, 2024 at 3:52 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 81" data-quote="arivero" data-source="post: 7119364" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> arivero said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> By the way, the motivation to look now into this is the recent public demolition, by Sabine, of a paper arguing very hand-wavy about relations between gravity and quantisation; </div> </div> </blockquote>To be clear, Sabine wasn't demolishing the concept one way or the other, she was demolishing a truly crappy paper making that argument.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="arivero" data-content="post-7120982" id="js-post-7120982" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7120982/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/recent-history-of-minimal-length-scale.1065682/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7120982"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-09-22T18:37:25-0500" data-time="1727048245" data-date-string="Sep 22, 2024" data-time-string="6:37 PM" title="Sep 22, 2024 at 6:37 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Sep 22, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7120982/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #6 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/arivero.81/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/arivero.81/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><span class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="81"><span itemprop="name">arivero</span></span></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>  <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>3,481</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>175</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7120982" data-lb-caption-desc="arivero · Sep 22, 2024 at 6:37 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper">Nobody should be confused about that, but it is not bad to stress the point. As mentioned before, she is the author of one of the main reviews on the topic, <a href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.12942/lrr-2013-2" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">https://link.springer.com/article/10.12942/lrr-2013-2</a></div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="1" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList is-active"> <ul class="reactionSummary"> <li><span class="reaction reaction--small reaction--1" data-reaction-id="1"><i aria-hidden="true"></i><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="reaction-sprite js-reaction" alt="Like" title="Like" /></span></li> </ul> <span class="u-srOnly">Likes</span> <bdi>ohwilleke</bdi> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="Hengri" data-content="post-7121043" id="js-post-7121043" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7121043/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/recent-history-of-minimal-length-scale.1065682/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7121043"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-09-23T04:29:21-0500" data-time="1727083761" data-date-string="Sep 23, 2024" data-time-string="4:29 AM" title="Sep 23, 2024 at 4:29 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Sep 23, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7121043/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #7 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/hengri.573109/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/hengri.573109/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><span class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="573109"><span itemprop="name">Hengri</span></span></span>     </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>4</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>0</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7121043" data-lb-caption-desc="Hengri · Sep 23, 2024 at 4:29 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 81" data-quote="arivero" data-source="post: 7120982" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> arivero said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> Nobody should be confused about that, but it is not bad to stress the point. As mentioned before, she is the author of one of the main reviews on the topic, <a href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.12942/lrr-2013-2" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">https://link.springer.com/article/10.12942/lrr-2013-2</a> </div> </div> </blockquote>The concept of quantised space originates from Parmenides of Elea, a Greek philosopher and mathematician who lived about 500 BC. He is the "father" of the ontology in philosophy and he strongly influenced philosophers like e.g. Plato and Aristotle. He reasoned that motion isn't possible without an underlying creating reality. A bit comparable with our "modern" interpretation of quantum fields. Most of Parmenides' work is lost, what we know is what other philosophers in ancient Greece wrote about him. His model of the universe as an enormous volume has a metric and one of his arguments with other philosophers is that real emptiness cannot exist in the universe. There is some uncertainty about the origin of the word "atom" because Parmenides' model suggests the existence of units that cannot be divided any more, although the units can change their shape (like a flame). In the ancient Greek language the word atom has not the meaning of "rigid".<br /> <br /> The paper of Sabine Hossenfelder describes a short history about the search for the metric of the universe. In the first half of the 20th century Heisenberg, Moglich, Goudsmit, etc. tried to find a metric with a size of about 1 x 10^-15 m. Partly to solve the infinities and partly because there must be a related minimal wave length of electromagnetic radiation.<br /> <br /> As far as I know it was Gerard 't Hooft who advertised the Planck units (about 1985-1990). Before, it was thought that the Planck units were quite obscure. Because the electromagnetic field is a term for the universal electric field and its correponding magnetic field. So Planck used the Planck constant for his derivation of the units but not the related vectors of the magnetic field. Instead he used the gravitational constant without showing the direct relation. Moreover, someone has to elucidate why there is the enormous gap of 1 x 10^20 between the Planck length and the minimal length scale of about 1 x 10^-15 m. His paper was really speculative. So maybe it was 't Hooft who inspired others to publish about the minimal length scale a couple of years later (the papers on top).<br /> <br /> There is another aspect about the quantisation of space because Einstein's concepts of space and time ("spacetime") are absolutely not comparable with Newton's axioms (space and time as a continuum). For Einstein space and time are just "tangible" phenomena. For Newton space and time have an ontological meaning, comparable with Parmenides' thoughts about the universe. (Einstein was influenced by Ernest Mach, the Austrian philosopher/physicist, who advertised that everything that is not "tangible" must be ignored). Einstein had the bad habitude to use terms without much insight in the concepts (like time is what the clock hands show).</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> <div class="message-lastEdit"> Last edited: <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-09-23T04:42:53-0500" data-time="1727084573" data-date-string="Sep 23, 2024" data-time-string="4:42 AM" title="Sep 23, 2024 at 4:42 AM" itemprop="dateModified">Sep 23, 2024</time> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="mitchell porter" data-content="post-7121059" id="js-post-7121059" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7121059/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/recent-history-of-minimal-length-scale.1065682/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7121059"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-09-23T06:30:32-0500" data-time="1727091032" data-date-string="Sep 23, 2024" data-time-string="6:30 AM" title="Sep 23, 2024 at 6:30 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Sep 23, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7121059/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #8 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/mitchell-porter.103130/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/mitchell-porter.103130/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><span class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="103130"><span itemprop="name">mitchell porter</span></span></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>1,476</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>733</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7121059" data-lb-caption-desc="mitchell porter · Sep 23, 2024 at 6:30 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 573109" data-quote="Hengri" data-source="post: 7121043" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> Hengri said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> The concept of quantised space originates from Parmenides of Elea ... He reasoned that motion isn't possible without an underlying creating reality ... His model of the universe as an enormous volume has a metric </div> </div> </blockquote>Are you the only person who thinks this? The usual interpretation of Parmenides is that he denied the reality of change and emphasized the Oneness of all things.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="Hengri" data-content="post-7121077" id="js-post-7121077" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7121077/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/recent-history-of-minimal-length-scale.1065682/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7121077"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-09-23T07:59:14-0500" data-time="1727096354" data-date-string="Sep 23, 2024" data-time-string="7:59 AM" title="Sep 23, 2024 at 7:59 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Sep 23, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7121077/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #9 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/hengri.573109/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/hengri.573109/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><span class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="573109"><span itemprop="name">Hengri</span></span></span>     </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>4</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>0</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7121077" data-lb-caption-desc="Hengri · Sep 23, 2024 at 7:59 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper">So you think that Parmenides as a famous mathematician who calculated the orbits of the then known planets of the solar system denied the reality of change? See "A Model of the Cosmos in the ancient Greek Antikythera<br /> Mechanism" (Nature scientific reports: <a href="https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-021-84310-w" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-021-84310-w</a>).<br /> <br /> There is a difference between absolute reality and relational reality (phenomenological reality). Absolute reality envelopes relational reality but not the opposite. The universal conservation laws (energy and momentum) and the 2 universal constants (quantum of energy and the speed of light) describe relational reality, the dynamical part of the universe (that is what physics is about). Parmenides model is about absolute reality and he stated that the observable dynamics of the universe originate from the "underlying" part of absolute reality. What he describes is nowadays comparable with a type of self generating fractal. A nice article about this type of concepts is from Fotini Markopoulou (<a href="https://arxiv.org/abs/1201.3398" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">https://arxiv.org/abs/1201.3398</a>).</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="Nugatory" data-content="post-7121092" id="js-post-7121092" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7121092/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/recent-history-of-minimal-length-scale.1065682/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7121092"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-09-23T09:02:44-0500" data-time="1727100164" data-date-string="Sep 23, 2024" data-time-string="9:02 AM" title="Sep 23, 2024 at 9:02 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Sep 23, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7121092/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #10 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/nugatory.382138/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/nugatory.382138/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/nugatory.382138/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="382138" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span class="username--staff username--moderator" itemprop="name">Nugatory</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-mentor" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="PF Community Staff"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-user-graduate" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Mentor</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>15,252</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>10,151</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7121092" data-lb-caption-desc="Nugatory · Sep 23, 2024 at 9:02 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper">This thread has drifted far from its original topic and is no longer connected with any sort of empirical science, so is closed as off-topic for PhysicsForums.<br /> <br /> As with all thread closures, it can reopened for further discussion of the original post.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> <script> if (typeof parseNewPost == 'function') { $(document).ajaxStop(parseNewPost(7121092)); 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Was it some new mathematical insight or technique? 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Recent history of minimal length scale?