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South Guard 9a - Vengeance - Page 6 - The Battle for Wesnoth Forums
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class="topic-title"><a href="./viewtopic.php?t=10288&start=75&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9">South Guard 9a - Vengeance</a></h2> <!-- NOTE: remove the style="display: none" when you want to have the forum description on the topic body --> <div style="display: none !important;">Feedback for the mainline campaign <em class="text-italics">The South Guard</em>.<br /></div> <p> <strong>Moderator:</strong> <a style="color:#008000;" href="./memberlist.php?mode=group&g=6643&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9">Forum Moderators</a> </p> <div class="action-bar bar-top"> <a href="./posting.php?mode=reply&t=10288&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9" class="button" title="Post a reply"> <span>Post Reply</span> <i class="icon fa-reply fa-fw" aria-hidden="true"></i> </a> <div class="search-box" role="search"> <form method="get" id="topic-search" action="./search.php?sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9"> <fieldset> <input class="inputbox search tiny" type="search" name="keywords" 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href="./viewtopic.php?t=10288&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9" role="button">1</a></li> <li><a class="button" href="./viewtopic.php?t=10288&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9&start=15" role="button">2</a></li> <li><a class="button" href="./viewtopic.php?t=10288&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9&start=30" role="button">3</a></li> <li><a class="button" href="./viewtopic.php?t=10288&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9&start=45" role="button">4</a></li> <li><a class="button" href="./viewtopic.php?t=10288&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9&start=60" role="button">5</a></li> <li class="active"><span>6</span></li> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="p663134" class="post has-profile bg2"> <div class="inner"> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile663134"> <dt class="no-profile-rank no-avatar"> <div class="avatar-container"> </div> <a href="./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=225435&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9" class="username">Sandsculpture</a> </dt> <dd class="profile-posts"><strong>Posts:</strong> <a href="./search.php?author_id=225435&sr=posts&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9">37</a></dd> <dd class="profile-joined"><strong>Joined:</strong> February 20th, 2021, 2:55 am</dd> </dl> <div class="postbody"> <div id="post_content663134"> <h3 class="first"> <a href="./viewtopic.php?p=663134&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9#p663134">Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance</a> </h3> <ul class="post-buttons"> <li> <a href="./posting.php?mode=quote&p=663134&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9" title="Reply with quote" class="button button-icon-only"> <i class="icon fa-quote-left fa-fw" aria-hidden="true"></i><span class="sr-only">Quote</span> </a> </li> </ul> <p class="author"> <a class="unread" href="./viewtopic.php?p=663134&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9#p663134" title="Post"> <i class="icon fa-file fa-fw icon-lightgray icon-md" aria-hidden="true"></i><span class="sr-only">Post</span> </a> <span class="responsive-hide">by <strong><a href="./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=225435&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9" class="username">Sandsculpture</a></strong> » </span><time datetime="2021-03-02T14:50:27+00:00">March 2nd, 2021, 2:50 pm</time> </p> <div class="content">(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?<br> <br> 1.14.15, Soldier (Normal)<br> <br> (2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)<br> <br> 1-2, the enemy is few in number and passive in behavior.<br> <br> (3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?<br> <br> Clear.<br> <br> (4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?<br> <br> Clear.<br> <br> (5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?<br> <br> None.<br> <br> (6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)<br> <br> 5, recruit fodders, attack the enemy (but not kill them) and sit waiting for victory<br> <br> (7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?<br> <br> -No</div> <dl class="attachbox"> <dt> Attachments </dt> <dd> <dl class="file"> <dt><img src="./images/upload_icons/zip.gif" alt="" /> <a class="postlink" href="./download/file.php?id=89504&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9">TSG-复仇怒火 游戏录像.gz</a></dt> <dd>(29.49 KiB) Downloaded 390 times</dd> </dl> </dd> </dl> </div> </div> <div class="back2top"> <a href="#top" class="top" title="Top"> <i class="icon fa-chevron-circle-up fa-fw icon-gray" aria-hidden="true"></i> <span class="sr-only">Top</span> </a> </div> </div> </div> <div id="p672561" class="post has-profile bg1"> <div class="inner"> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile672561"> <dt class="no-profile-rank no-avatar"> <div class="avatar-container"> </div> <a href="./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=172119&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9" class="username">mal_shubertal</a> </dt> <dd class="profile-posts"><strong>Posts:</strong> <a href="./search.php?author_id=172119&sr=posts&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9">93</a></dd> <dd class="profile-joined"><strong>Joined:</strong> December 1st, 2018, 6:58 pm</dd> </dl> <div class="postbody"> <div id="post_content672561"> <h3 > <a href="./viewtopic.php?p=672561&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9#p672561">Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance</a> </h3> <ul class="post-buttons"> <li> <a href="./posting.php?mode=quote&p=672561&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9" title="Reply with quote" class="button button-icon-only"> <i class="icon fa-quote-left fa-fw" aria-hidden="true"></i><span class="sr-only">Quote</span> </a> </li> </ul> <p class="author"> <a class="unread" href="./viewtopic.php?p=672561&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9#p672561" title="Post"> <i class="icon fa-file fa-fw icon-lightgray icon-md" aria-hidden="true"></i><span class="sr-only">Post</span> </a> <span class="responsive-hide">by <strong><a href="./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=172119&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9" class="username">mal_shubertal</a></strong> » </span><time datetime="2022-03-31T13:40:39+00:00">March 31st, 2022, 1:40 pm</time> </p> <div class="content">(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?<br> 1.16.2 Soldier/hard<br> (2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)<br> 1. Just turtle up near keep and wait it out. <br> (3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?<br> very clear<br> (4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?<br> I really like this storyline. The character development is good, and there's some genuine pathos in seeing Ethiliel and Deoran have to go their separate ways so abruptly after everything they've gone through together. The ambivalent ending where the humans and elves make peace but are forever estranged can be seen as a metaphor for grief in general, like you can recover and move on, but you never get back what you lost. <br> (5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?<br> I had to try killing all the elves just once, to be sure it was impossible. After that I just restarted, sat around, and won easily. <br> (6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)<br> 1. The storyline is so good, and the gameplay is so BORING! This is a very anticlimactic and disappointing final scenario from a gameplay perspective. <br> (7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?<br> I played this campaign once years ago, before the redesign, and I seem to remember that there used to be some secondary objective in this scenario, like move ethiliel to a particular spot on a particular turn or something. I think it makes sense, thematically, that the objective here should be something other than "kill enemy leader", since Ethiliel's goal is to PREVENT bloodshed. And I like the mechanic of every elf you kill causing more to spawn, which forces more creative tactics. But just sitting around for 14 turns is too trivially easy. So I would recommend some non-violent objective, like move Deoran/Ethiliel next to the enemy leader to negotiate, or "capture" the enemy leader by surrounding him or luring him into a particular area, or move units to certain locations to trigger some kind of elf pacifism magic, or somehow generate proof that Mebrin was a lich, etc. Maybe some kind of mechanic where you can eliminate enemy units non-violently, like by injuring them and then having Minister Hylas heal them to show that humans are nice, or something like that. <br> (8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?</div> <dl class="attachbox"> <dt> Attachments </dt> <dd> <dl class="file"> <dt><img src="./images/upload_icons/zip.gif" alt="" /> <a class="postlink" href="./download/file.php?id=92766&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9">TSG-Vengeance replay 20220327-063710.gz</a></dt> <dd>(37.05 KiB) Downloaded 269 times</dd> </dl> </dd> </dl> </div> </div> <div class="back2top"> <a href="#top" class="top" title="Top"> <i class="icon fa-chevron-circle-up fa-fw icon-gray" aria-hidden="true"></i> <span class="sr-only">Top</span> </a> </div> </div> </div> <div id="p681967" class="post has-profile bg2"> <div class="inner"> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile681967"> <dt class="no-profile-rank no-avatar"> <div class="avatar-container"> </div> <a href="./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=262188&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9" class="username">CurtisStarrCook</a> </dt> <dd class="profile-posts"><strong>Posts:</strong> <a href="./search.php?author_id=262188&sr=posts&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9">6</a></dd> <dd class="profile-joined"><strong>Joined:</strong> June 1st, 2023, 11:04 pm</dd> </dl> <div class="postbody"> <div id="post_content681967"> <h3 > <a href="./viewtopic.php?p=681967&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9#p681967">Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance</a> </h3> <ul class="post-buttons"> <li> <a href="./posting.php?mode=quote&p=681967&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9" title="Reply with quote" class="button button-icon-only"> <i class="icon fa-quote-left fa-fw" aria-hidden="true"></i><span class="sr-only">Quote</span> </a> </li> </ul> <p class="author"> <a class="unread" href="./viewtopic.php?p=681967&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9#p681967" title="Post"> <i class="icon fa-file fa-fw icon-lightgray icon-md" aria-hidden="true"></i><span class="sr-only">Post</span> </a> <span class="responsive-hide">by <strong><a href="./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=262188&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9" class="username">CurtisStarrCook</a></strong> » </span><time datetime="2023-06-03T17:27:18+00:00">June 3rd, 2023, 5:27 pm</time> </p> <div class="content">(1) What <strong class="text-strong">difficulty levels</strong> and <strong class="text-strong">game versions</strong> have you played the scenario on? <br> Most difficult.<br> <br> (2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10) <br> 5? Without the inegmatic advice to 'turtle', probably a 10… and based on losses suffered, probably a 3.<br> <br> (3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives? <br> Crystal.<br> <br> (4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario? <br> It was good, and I'll echo the review just above mine in saying the character development shown throughout the campaign was really, really good.<br> <br> (5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario? <br> I'd tried 'turtling' years ago in another campaign and found it to be a distinctly losing strategy, so trying to figure a way to make it work here was a distinct challenge. In the end I lost my last Merman very rapidly (he was the only unit I attacked with — once — and he died while being hit by the unit that would've leveled him up to 3rd if he'd survived; I found no real use for the Mermen throughout the campaign, except to grab odd outlying villages, and the two 'free' ones were sufficient for that task), a 4th level Elvish Sorceress who died in the same way that 'turtling had failed in previous attempts, and a 1st level Elvish Healer.<br> <br> I was using her and the 'free' Elf Healer to fly around the board claiming villages while attempting to avoid being trapped into combat. Around turn 9 the Elves finally lost a unit, and when its replacements both appeared AND MOVED INSTANTLY in from the side of the map it caught me by surprise. The first replacement was an Elven Archer who moved directly to the sorceress and suicided on her… then appeared again at the board edge as another Archer and a 2nd level Rider, and immediately suicided again… appearing immediately at the board edge as another Archer and a Captain… appearing as an Archer and a Rider… appearing as an Archer and a Captain… appearing as a Rider. The three Riders and two Captains then surrounded my Sorceress so she couldn't escape, and killed her the following turn.<br> <br> (My previous attempt at 'turtling' had ended when I filled a castle with 3rd level lawful units and was hit by an unimaginable horde of zero and 1st level Undead who kept hitting the same two hexes, dying to clear the hexes adjacent, then funneling more to rinse and repeat. IN DAYLIGHT I lost both hexes, then two more hexes the following turn {also daylight}, then the Mages of Light who were backing them up to heal them {they never got to, as the max level units in front of them kept dying in one turn, so there was nothing to heal}, then my leader.)<br> <br> (6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10) <br> Maybe a 7? The tactical situation was interesting, and aside from losing those two units all that went down were the 1st level Ironclad/guardsman who got reached on turn one and a few 1st level archers. I was able to quickly determine that the key to the scenario was spamming Archers after finishing recalls. Place the strongest units on the good defense spaces that could be hit from the most hexes, make sure all of them are in villages or have healers adjacent, then fill the next most vulnerable spaces with 2nd levels who are guaranteed to inflict damage as they're hit (the scenario gives you two for free), and spam archers to screen and be targets for enemy Elves. The Elves will attack them instead of your more valuable units, and I was able to keep buying about 2 Archers every 3 turns to the end of the scenario. I did have to rotate units out of the front line a few times (including 3 Archers who didn't die immediately), and the situation was not infinitely sustainable, but it would've taken probably another 12-20 turns before the defense would've broken down. Without that mass-suiciding on my Sorceress, probably 20 turns+.<br> <br> (7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?<br> Nothing. The Elves acted intelligently, assuming they had no idea they were on a time limit. The only thing they arguably could have done better would have been to run around capturing villages and making an effort to cross the river to surround me. Of course, they didn't know that acting suicidal would be beneficial to them (which was realistic), so they repeatedly pulled back to heal. All in all, quite satisfying. The AI was good throughout the campaign.</div> </div> </div> <div class="back2top"> <a href="#top" class="top" title="Top"> <i class="icon fa-chevron-circle-up fa-fw icon-gray" aria-hidden="true"></i> <span class="sr-only">Top</span> </a> </div> </div> </div> <div id="p685299" class="post has-profile bg1"> <div class="inner"> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile685299"> <dt class="no-profile-rank no-avatar"> <div class="avatar-container"> </div> <a href="./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=268197&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9" class="username">JL42</a> </dt> <dd class="profile-posts"><strong>Posts:</strong> <a href="./search.php?author_id=268197&sr=posts&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9">66</a></dd> <dd class="profile-joined"><strong>Joined:</strong> December 9th, 2023, 11:19 am</dd> </dl> <div class="postbody"> <div id="post_content685299"> <h3 > <a href="./viewtopic.php?p=685299&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9#p685299">Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance</a> </h3> <ul class="post-buttons"> <li> <a href="./posting.php?mode=quote&p=685299&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9" title="Reply with quote" class="button button-icon-only"> <i class="icon fa-quote-left fa-fw" aria-hidden="true"></i><span class="sr-only">Quote</span> </a> </li> </ul> <p class="author"> <a class="unread" href="./viewtopic.php?p=685299&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9#p685299" title="Post"> <i class="icon fa-file fa-fw icon-lightgray icon-md" aria-hidden="true"></i><span class="sr-only">Post</span> </a> <span class="responsive-hide">by <strong><a href="./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=268197&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9" class="username">JL42</a></strong> » </span><time datetime="2023-12-16T03:57:05+00:00">December 16th, 2023, 3:57 am</time> </p> <div class="content"><blockquote class="uncited"><div> What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on? </div></blockquote> v. 1.16.10<br> Soldier / Normal<br> <blockquote class="uncited"><div> How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10) </div></blockquote> 1<br> <blockquote class="uncited"><div> How clear did you find the scenario objectives? </div></blockquote> Very clear.<br> <blockquote class="uncited"><div> How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario? </div></blockquote> The dialogue and storyline are very well done.<br> <blockquote class="uncited"><div> What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario? </div></blockquote> Not dying of boredom as I waited for the time to run out.<br> <blockquote class="uncited"><div> How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10) </div></blockquote> 1 – Like the previous scenario (Return to Kerlath), this one is just a huge disappointment compared to the excellent quality of the first 6 scenarios of the campaign. It provides a good and effective closure to the story, but in terms of gameplay there's no point. You just put up some defenders and rotate them back to heal when they get injured. You're supposed to avoid killing the attackers, but it doesn't seem to matter much if you do, because it just makes a couple more low-level enemies show up in the distance. The elves do not pose any kind of real threat, and even if they did, simply holding a static siege for a few turns is not a particularly inspiring conclusion to the campaign. Felt to me like an uninteresting waste of time.<br> <blockquote class="uncited"><div> What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun? </div></blockquote> Not really sure what to recommend, but I feel like the ending of the campaign needs to be revised completely. Or maybe just deleted. You could remove this scenario and replace it entirely with a narrative epilogue and the campaign would be better for it.<br> <br> About the Overall Campaign:<br> <br> In general this campaign is really well done. The story and writing quality are notable here; it draws me in right from the start, gives Deoran some background and character, and creates a sense of urgency and mystery about what is going on in the countryside. You can really see the hero developing across the scenarios as new realizations emerge and as the challenges he faces continue to become more significant.<br> <br> Most of the maps are excellent as well, very thoughtfully designed, and the battles feel engaging and meaningful. The early scenarios are mostly simple and easy but then they become solidly difficult around #5 and #6. Nearly all of them have some kind of interesting happenings or combat complexities. Really just enjoyable to play.<br> <br> The only thing that brings this down for me is the final two scenarios. (I'm reviewing the elf branch – never played the bandit branch since they are clearly scum and siding with them seems like it would be out of character for Deoran.) In the elf branch, the last two scenarios feel like a total afterthought and waste of time; you could wrap this up with an epilogue after scenario 6 and be better for it. The story aspects continue to be good in those final scenarios, but the actual gameplay is a massive letdown from the previous maps.<br> <br> For me the campaign is 4 out of 5 stars; the only reason it doesn't get full marks is the boringness of the final two scenarios.</div> </div> </div> <div class="back2top"> <a href="#top" class="top" title="Top"> <i class="icon fa-chevron-circle-up fa-fw icon-gray" aria-hidden="true"></i> <span class="sr-only">Top</span> </a> </div> </div> </div> <div class="action-bar bar-bottom"> <a href="./posting.php?mode=reply&t=10288&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9" class="button" title="Post a reply"> <span>Post Reply</span> <i class="icon fa-reply fa-fw" aria-hidden="true"></i> </a> <form method="post" action="./viewtopic.php?t=10288&start=75&sid=d6e0d206bed05629011bd9e57071f2c9"> <div class="dropdown-container dropdown-container-left dropdown-button-control sort-tools"> <span title="Display and sorting options" class="button button-secondary 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