CINXE.COM

<?xml version="1.0"?> <feed xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" xml:lang="en"> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=TFOWR</id> <title>Wikipedia - User contributions [en]</title> <link rel="self" type="application/atom+xml" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=TFOWR"/> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/TFOWR"/> <updated>2024-11-23T23:33:36Z</updated> <subtitle>User contributions</subtitle> <generator>MediaWiki 1.44.0-wmf.4</generator> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=DVD&diff=394950783</id> <title>DVD</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=DVD&diff=394950783"/> <updated>2010-11-05T09:03:53Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Reverted edits by 212.219.189.100 (talk) to last version by Kingofalldogs <hr /> <div>{{about|the storage media format|the binocular vision condition|Dissociated Vertical Deviation}} {{Infobox media |name = DVD |image = [[File:DVD logo.svg|200px]]&lt;br/&gt;[[Image:DVD.png|250px|DVD-R read/write side]] |caption =DVD-R read/write side |type = [[Optical disc]] |usage = [[Standard Definition video]] [[Standard definition sound]] [[PS2]] [[Xbox]] [[Xbox 360]] games |capacity = 4.7&amp;nbsp;[[gigabyte|GB]] (single-sided, single-layer)&lt;br/&gt;8.5-8.7&amp;nbsp;GB (single-sided, double-layer)&lt;br/&gt;9.4&amp;nbsp;GB (double-sided, single-layer)&lt;br/&gt;17.08&amp;nbsp;GB (double-sided, double-layer&amp;nbsp;– rare) |read = 650 nm laser, 10.5&amp;nbsp;[[Megabit per second|Mbit/s]] (1×) |write = 10.5&amp;nbsp;[[Data rate units#Megabit per second|Mbit/s]] (1×) |standard = DVD Forum's DVD Books&lt;ref name=&quot;dvd-book&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;dvd-books&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;dvd-books-overview&quot; /&gt; and DVD+RW Alliance specifications |owners/creators=[[Sony]] [[Panasonic]] [[Samsung]] [[Toshiba]] [[Phileps]] }} '''DVD''', also known as '''Digital Video Disc''' or '''Digital Versatile Disc''',&lt;!-- NOTE: Please do not edit this explanation. See the Etymology section of this article and for further details refer to the talk page and archives. --&gt; is an [[optical disc]] [[data storage device|storage]] media format, and was invented and developed by [[Philips]], [[Sony]], [[Toshiba]], and [[Time Warner]] in 1995. Its main uses are [[video]] and [[data]] storage. DVDs are of the same dimensions as compact discs ([[CD]]s), but are capable of storing almost seven times as much data. Variations of the term ''DVD'' often indicate the way data is stored on the discs: DVD-ROM (read only memory) has data that can only be read and not written; [[DVD-R]] and [[DVD+R]] (recordable) can record data only once, and then function as a DVD-ROM; [[DVD-RW]] (re-writable), [[DVD+RW]], and [[DVD-RAM]] (random access memory) can all record and erase data multiple times. The wavelength used by standard DVD lasers is 650&amp;nbsp;nm;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://articles.techrepublic.com.com/5100-6349-1047035.html|title=Build Your Skills: A comparison between DVD and CD-ROM}}&lt;/ref&gt; thus, the light has a [[red]] color. [[DVD-Video]] and [[DVD-Audio]] discs refer to properly formatted and structured video and audio content, respectively. Other types of DVDs, including those with video content, may be referred to as DVD Data discs. == History == {{Optical disc authoring}} In 1993, two optical disc storage formats were being developed. One was the MultiMedia [[Compact Disc]] (MMCD) also called CDi, backed by [[Philips]] and [[Sony]], and the other was the Super Density (SD) disc, supported by [[Toshiba]], [[Time Warner]], [[Matsushita Electric]], [[Hitachi, Ltd.|Hitachi]], [[Mitsubishi Electric]], [[Pioneer Corporation|Pioneer]], [[Thomson SA|Thomson]], and [[JVC]]. Representatives of the SD camp approached [[International Business Machines|IBM]], asking for advice on the file system to use for their disc as well as seeking support for their format for storing computer data. [[Alan E. Bell]], a researcher from IBM's [[Almaden Research Center]] received that request and also learned of the [[Sony#Products, technologies and proprietary formats|MMCD]] development project. Wary of being caught in a repeat of the costly [[videotape format war]] between [[VHS]] and [[Betamax]] in the 1980s, he convened a group of computer industry experts, including representatives from [[Apple Inc.|Apple]], [[Microsoft]], [[Sun Microsystems|Sun]], [[Dell]], and many others. This group was referred to as the Technical Working Group, or TWG. The TWG voted to boycott both formats unless the two camps agreed on a single, converged standard.&lt;ref name=&quot;ecommerceandvideodistributiondvd.blogspot.com&quot;&gt;{{cite web |title=E-commerce and Video Distribution: DVD and Blu-ray |url=http://ecommerceandvideodistributiondvd.blogspot.com/}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Lou Gerstner]], president of IBM, was recruited to apply pressure on the executives of the warring factions. Eventually, the computer companies won the day, and a single format, now called DVD, was agreed upon. The TWG also collaborated with the [[Optical Storage Technology Association]] (OSTA) on the use of their implementation of the ISO-13346 file system (known as [[Universal Disc Format]] [UDF]) for use on the new DVDs. Philips and Sony decided it was in their best interest to avoid another format war over their MultiMedia Compact Disc, and agreed to unify with companies backing the Super Density Disc to release a single format with technologies from both. The specification was mostly similar to Toshiba and Matsushita's Super Density Disc, except for the dual-layer option (MMCD was single-sided and optionally dual-layer, whereas SD was single-layer but optionally double-sided) and [[Eight-to-Fourteen Modulation|EFMPlus]] modulation. EFMPlus was chosen because of its great resilience to disc damage, such as scratches and fingerprints. EFMPlus, created by [[Kees A. Schouhamer Immink|Kees Immink]] (who also designed [[Eight-to-Fourteen Modulation|EFM]]), is 6% less efficient than the modulation technique originally used by Toshiba, which resulted in a capacity of 4.7&amp;nbsp;GB, as opposed to the original 5&amp;nbsp;GB. The result was the DVD specification, finalized for the DVD movie player and DVD-ROM computer applications in December 1995. The DVD Video format was first introduced by Toshiba in Japan in November 1996, in the United States in March 1997 (test marketed),&lt;ref name=&quot;uni_PR&quot;&gt;{{cite news |title=For the DVD, Disney Magic May Be the Key |author=Johnson, Lawrence B. |work=[[The New York Times]] |date=September 7, 1997 |url=http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9407EEDC1730F934A3575AC0A961958260 |accessdate=2009-05-25 }}&lt;/ref&gt; in Europe in October 1998, and in Australia in February 1999. In May 1997, the [[DVD Consortium]] was replaced by the [[DVD Forum]], which is open to all other companies.&lt;ref name=&quot;uni_PR&quot;&gt;{{cite press release |title=DVD Format Unification |publisher=Toshiba |date=December 8, 1995 |url=http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/1995_12/pr0802.htm |accessdate=2007-07-12 }}&lt;/ref&gt; DVD specifications created and updated by the DVD Forum are published as so-called ''DVD Books'' (e.g. DVD-ROM Book, DVD-Audio Book, DVD-Video Book, DVD-R Book, DVD-RW Book, DVD-RAM Book, [[DVD-AR]] Book, [[DVD-VR]] Book, etc.).&lt;ref name=&quot;dvd-book&quot;&gt;DVD FLLC (2009-02) [http://www.dvdfllc.co.jp/format/f_bconst.html DVD Book Construction – list of all available DVD Books], Retrieved on 2009-07-24&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;dvd-books&quot;&gt;DVD FLLC [http://www.dvdfllc.co.jp/format/f_histry.html DVD Format Book – History of Supplements for DVD Books], Retrieved on 2009-07-24&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;dvd-books-overview&quot;&gt;MPEG.org, [http://www.mpeg.org/MPEG/DVD/General/Books.html DVD Books overview], Retrieved on 2009-07-24&lt;/ref&gt; Some specifications for mechanical, physical and optical characteristics of DVD optical discs can be downloaded as ''freely available standards'' from the [[ISO]] website.&lt;ref name=&quot;iso-free&quot;&gt;ISO [http://standards.iso.org/ittf/PubliclyAvailableStandards/index.html ISO Freely Available Standards], Retrieved on 2009-07-24&lt;/ref&gt; Also, the [[DVD+RW Alliance]] publishes competing DVD specifications such as DVD+R, DVD+R DL, DVD+RW or [[DVD+RW DL]]. These DVD formats are also ISO standards.&lt;ref&gt;ISO [http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_ics/catalogue_detail_ics.htm?csnumber=52065 ISO/IEC 17344:2009, Data interchange on 120 mm and 80 mm optical disc using +R format – Capacity: 4,7 Gbytes and 1,46 Gbytes per side (recording speed up to 16X)], Retrieved on 2009-07-26&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;ISO [http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_ics/catalogue_detail_ics.htm?csnumber=51140 ISO/IEC 25434:2008, Data interchange on 120 mm and 80 mm optical disc using +R DL format – Capacity: 8,55 Gbytes and 2,66 Gbytes per side (recording speed up to 16X)], Retrieved on 2009-07-26&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;ISO [http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_ics/catalogue_detail_ics.htm?csnumber=52064 ISO/IEC 17341:2009, Data interchange on 120 mm and 80 mm optical disc using +RW format – Capacity: 4,7 Gbytes and 1,46 Gbytes per side (recording speed up to 4X)], Retrieved on 2009-07-26&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;ISO [http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_tc/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=52066 ISO/IEC 26925:2009, Data interchange on 120 mm and 80 mm optical disc using +RW HS format – Capacity: 4,7 Gbytes and 1,46 Gbytes per side (recording speed 8X)], Retrieved on 2009-07-26&lt;/ref&gt; Some of DVD specifications (e.g. for DVD-Video) are not publicly available and can be obtained only from the DVD Format/Logo Licensing Corporation for a fee of US $5000.&lt;ref name=&quot;dvdbook-subscribe&quot;&gt;DVD FLLC (2009) [http://www.dvdfllc.co.jp/format/f_nosbsc.html DVD Format Book], Retrieved on 2009-08-14&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;DVD FLLC (2009) [http://www.dvdfllc.co.jp/license/l_howto.html How To Obtain DVD Format/Logo License (2005–2009)], Retrieved on 2009-08-14&lt;/ref&gt; Every subscriber must sign a [[non-disclosure agreement]] as certain information in the DVD Book is proprietary and confidential.&lt;ref name=&quot;dvdbook-subscribe&quot; /&gt; === Etymology === The official DVD specification documents have never defined the [[Acronym and initialism|initialism]] DVD.{{Citation needed|date=April 2010}} Usage in the present day varies, with '''''Digital Versatile Disc''''',&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.dvdforum.org/faq-dvdprimer.htm#1 DVD Primer at DVDForum.org]&lt;/ref&gt; '''''Digital Video Disc''''', and '''''DVD''''' being the most common. '''''DVD''''' was originally used as an initialism for the unofficial term '''''digital videodisk'''''.&lt;!-- NOTE: Please do not edit this spelling unless you have an authoritative source that predates than the one cited. --&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |title=A Battle for Influence Over Insatiable Disks |publisher=''[[The New York Times]]'' |date=1995-01-11 |url=http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CEEDA143CF932A25752C0A963958260 |accessdate=2007-04-09 | first=John | last=Markoff}}&lt;/ref&gt; Later, as reported at the time of the specification finalization in 1995, the letters officially stood for '''''Digital Versatile Disc''''' (due to nonvideo applications).&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=DVD designers go with AC-3 Final specs for 'digital versatile disc'... |date=1995-12-11 |url=http://login.vnuemedia.com/h/login/login_subscribe.jsp?id=EhTA1werc%2F8oJkXd3AvIhVqJMQ%2BEsnoUjFFnmSZpudrVtJLf7Nv3guKhcy0wXloTw1ec8wBZwjOB%0A62XN0BJm24K0G1zDvlaa2k6JKCFzE7ePjrRq%2BP7fzOttoVmmk0ji0Ak9XMyUDOLcVVHvY1YAAu7R%0A9%2FWEig9DTbEWMSZ81VibQ8Yr05&amp;nbsp;cHz6%2BtV7gQyZ7v2cr1AiqljrxXu9IdD%2FTDqGSb8vhhZNMn6q9G%0Aegam8cJXu9IdD%2FTDqOmFpnXV7XcQIVOkoLrk6Bs%3D |accessdate=2007-04-16}}&lt;/ref&gt;{{Dead link|date=July 2010}} A newsgroup [[FAQ]] written by Jim Taylor (a prominent figure in the industry) claims that four years later, in 1999, the DVD Forum stated that the format name was simply the three letters &quot;DVD&quot; and did not stand for anything.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=DVD FAQ |publisher=DVD Demystified |date=2006-09-12 |url=http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#1.1 |accessdate=}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[DVD Forum]] website has a section called &quot;DVD Primer&quot; in which the answer to the question, &quot;What does DVD mean?&quot; reads, &quot;The keyword is 'versatile.' Digital Versatile Discs provide superb video, audio and data storage and access—all on one disc.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=DVD Primer |publisher=DVD Forum |date=2004-11-14 |url=http://www.dvdforum.org/faq-dvdprimer.htm#1 |accessdate=2008-01-23}} &lt;/ref&gt; == Identification (MID) == The DVD is made of a spiral groove read or written starting at the center. The form of the groove encodes unalterable identification data known as [[Media Identification Code]] (MID). The MID contains data such as the manufacturer and model, byte capacity, allowed data rates (also known as speed), etc. == DVD Design == === As a movie delivery medium === DVD was adopted by movie and home entertainment distributors to replace the ubiquitous VHS tape as the primary means of distributing films to consumers in the home entertainment marketplace. DVD was chosen for it's superior ability to reproduce moving pictures and sound, for it's superior durability, and for it's interactivity. Interactivity had proven to be a luxury consumer and collector favorite when the movie studios had released their films on laser disk. When the price point for a laser disk at approximately $100 per disk moved to $20 per disk at retail, this luxury feature became available for mass consumption. Simultaneously the movie studios decided to change their home entertainment release model from a rental model to a for purchase model. This allowed all fans to become collectors and pushed the movie DVD into a demand postition that essentially made it the most successful consumer product of all time. At the same time, a demand for interactive design talent and services was created. Movies in the past had uniquely designed title sequences. Suddenly every movie being released required information architecture and interactive desing components that matched the film's tone and were at the quality level that Hollywood demanded for its product. Whole mini-studios to perform this type of work, such as 1K Studios and Canned Interactive, either formed or created service departments to fulfill this need in Hollywood. === As an interactive medium === DVD as a format had two qualities at the time that were not available in any other interactive medium: 1. Enough capacity and speed to provide high quality, full motion video and sound, and 2. low cost delivery mechanism provided by consumer products retailers who quickly moved to sell their players for under $200 and eventually for under $50 at retail. In addition, the medium itself was small enough and light enough to mail using general first class postage. Almost over night, this created a new business opportunity and model for business innovators like Netflix to re-invent the home entertainment distribution model. It also opened up the opportunity for business and product information to be inexpensively provided on full motion video through direct mail. Again, a demand for unique interactive design talent and services was created. Companies as large as Nike and Mattel went in search of new start-ups such as 1K Studios and Canned Interactive to fulfill their information architecture and design needs. == Capacity == {| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; |+ Capacity and nomenclature&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.mpeg.org/MPEG/DVD/Book_A/Specs.html |title=DVD Book A: Physical parameters |publisher=Mpeg.org |date= |accessdate=2009-08-22}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.cinram.com/dvd/tech/dvdindetail.pdf Cinram: DVD in Detail]{{Dead link|date=August 2009}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;small&gt;SS = single-sided, DS = double-sided, SL = single-layer, DL = dual-layer&lt;/small&gt; !colspan=&quot;2&quot; rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| Designation !rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| Sides !!rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| Layers&lt;br /&gt;(total) !! Diameter !!colspan=&quot;2&quot;| Capacity &lt;!-- raw or user data? exact number of sectors would be nice --&gt; |- ! (cm) !! ([[Gigabyte|GB]]) !!align=right| ([[Gibibyte|GiB]]) |- | DVD-1&lt;ref name=&quot;DVD Demystified&quot;&gt;{{cite web|author=Jim Taylor |url=http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html |title=DVD Demystifed FAQ |publisher=Dvddemystified.com |date= |accessdate=2009-08-22}}&lt;/ref&gt; ||title=&quot;single-sided, single-layer&quot;| SS SL | style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 1 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 1 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 8 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 1.46 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 1.36 |- | DVD-2 ||title=&quot;single-sided, double-layer or double-sided, single layer&quot;| SS DL | style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 1 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 2 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 8 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 2.66 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 2.47 |- | DVD-3 ||title=&quot;double-sided, single-layer&quot;| DS SL | style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 2 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 2 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 8 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 2.92 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 2.72 |- | DVD-4 ||title=&quot;double-sided, double-layer&quot;| DS DL | style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 2 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 4 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 8 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 5.32 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 4.95 |- | DVD-5 ||title=&quot;single-sided, single-layer&quot;| SS SL | style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 1 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 1 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 12 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 4.70 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 4.37 |- | DVD-9 ||title=&quot;single-sided, double-layer&quot;| SS DL | style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 1 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 2 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 12 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 8.54 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 7.95 |- | DVD-10 ||title=&quot;double-sided, single-layer&quot;| DS SL | style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 2 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 2 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 12 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 9.40 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 8.75 |- | DVD-14&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=DVD-14|publisher=AfterDawn Ltd.|url=http://www.afterdawn.com/glossary/terms/dvd-14.cfm|accessdate=2007-02-06}}&lt;!--there should be a better source--&gt;&lt;/ref&gt; ||title=&quot;double-sided, double- and single-layer&quot;| DS SL+DL | style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 2 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 3 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 12 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 13.24 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 12.33 &lt;!--calculated from data above--&gt; |- | DVD-18 ||title=&quot;double-sided, double-layer&quot;| DS DL | style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 2 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 4 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 12 || style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 17.08|| style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot; | 15.90 |}&lt;!-- CD/DVD hybrid discs not included--&gt; {{-}} {| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;float:right;&quot; |+ Capacity and nomenclature of (re)writable discs !colspan=&quot;2&quot; rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| Designation !rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| Sides !!rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| Layers&lt;br /&gt;(total) !! Diameter !!colspan=&quot;2&quot;| Capacity &lt;!-- raw or user data? exact number of sectors would be nice --&gt; |- ! (cm) !! ([[Gigabyte|GB]]) !!align=right| ([[Gibibyte|GiB]]) |- |DVD-R || SS SL (1.0) || 1 || 1 || 12 || 3.95 || 3.68 |- |DVD-R || SS SL (2.0) || 1 || 1 || 12 || 4.70 || 4.37 |- |DVD-RW || SS SL || 1 || 1 || 12 || 4.70 || 4.37 |- |DVD+R || SS SL || 1 || 1 || 12 || 4.70 || 4.37 |- |DVD+RW || SS SL || 1 || 1 || 12 || 4.70 || 4.37 |- |DVD-R || DS SL || 2 || 2 || 12 || 9.40 || 8.75 |- |DVD-RW || DS SL || 2 || 2 || 12 || 9.40 || 8.75 |- |DVD+R || DS SL || 2 || 2 || 12 || 9.40 || 8.75 |- |DVD+RW || DS SL || 2 || 2 || 12 || 9.40 || 8.75 |- |DVD-RAM || SS SL || 1 || 1 || 8 || 1.46 || 1.36* |- |DVD-RAM || DS SL || 2 || 2 || 8 || 2.65 || 2.47* |- |DVD-RAM || SS SL (1.0) || 1 || 1 || 12 || 2.58 || 2.40 |- |DVD-RAM || SS SL (2.0) || 1 || 1 || 12 || 4.70 || 4.37 |- |DVD-RAM || DS SL (1.0) || 2 || 2 || 12 || 5.16 || 4.80 |- |DVD-RAM || DS SL (2.0) || 2 || 2 || 12 || 9.40 || 8.75* |} The basic types of DVD (12&amp;nbsp;cm diameter, single-sided or homogeneous double-sided) are referred to by a rough approximation of their capacity in gigabytes. In draft versions of the specification, DVD-5 indeed held five gigabytes, but some parameters were changed later on as explained above, so the capacity decreased. Other [[DVD formats|formats]], those with 8&amp;nbsp;cm diameter and hybrid variants, acquired similar numeric names with even larger deviation. The 12&amp;nbsp;cm type is a standard DVD, and the 8&amp;nbsp;cm variety is known as a [[MiniDVD]]. These are the same sizes as a standard CD and a [[mini CD|mini-CD]], respectively. The capacity by surface (MiB/cm&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;) varies from 6.92 MiB/cm&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; in the DVD-1 to 18.0 MiB/cm&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; in the DVD-18. As with hard disk drives, in the DVD realm, [[gigabyte]] and the symbol GB are usually used in the [[SI]] sense (i.e., 10&lt;sup&gt;9&lt;/sup&gt;, or 1,000,000,000 bytes). For distinction, [[gibibyte]] (with symbol GiB) is used (i.e., 2&lt;sup&gt;30&lt;/sup&gt;, or 1,073,741,824 bytes). [[Image:Dvdpencilrsizecomparison.png|thumb|Size comparison: a 12&amp;nbsp;cm [[DVD+RW]] and a 19&amp;nbsp;cm [[pencil]].]] Each DVD sector contains 2,418 bytes of data, 2,048 bytes of which are user data. There is a small difference in storage space between ''+'' and ''-'' (hyphen) formats: {| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; |+ Capacity differences of writable DVD formats&lt;!--DVD-5 and DVD-9 should be listed for comparison--&gt; ! Type || Sectors || Bytes || KB || MB || GB || KiB || MiB || GiB |- style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot;| | DVD-R SL || 2,298,496 || 4,707,319,808 || 4,707,319.808 || 4,707.320 || 4.707 || 4,596,992 || 4,489.250 || 4.384 |- style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot;| | DVD+R SL || 2,295,104 || 4,700,372,992 || 4,700,372.992 || 4,700.373 || 4.700 || 4,590,208 || 4,482.625 || 4.378 |- style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot;| | DVD-R DL || 4,171,712 || 8,543,666,176 || 8,543,666.176 || 8,543.666 || 8.544 || 8,343,424 || 8,147.875 || 7.957 |- style=&quot;text-align:right;&quot;| | DVD+R DL || 4,173,824 || 8,547,991,552 || 8,547,991.552 || 8,547.992 || 8.548 || 8,347,648 || 8,152.000 || 7.961 |} === Technology === [[Image:Dvd-burning-cutaway3.JPG|220px|thumb|right|DVD-RW Drive operating with the protective cover removed.]] DVD uses 650&amp;nbsp;nm wavelength [[laser diode]] light as opposed to 780&amp;nbsp;nm for CD. This permits a smaller pit to be etched on the media surface compared to CDs (0.74&amp;nbsp;µm for DVD versus 1.6&amp;nbsp;µm for [[CD]]), allowing for a DVD's increased storage capacity. In comparison, [[Blu-ray Disc]], the successor to the DVD format, uses a wavelength of 405&amp;nbsp;nm, and one dual-layer disc has a 50&amp;nbsp;GB storage capacity. Writing speeds for DVD were 1×, that is, 1350&amp;nbsp;[[kilobyte|kB]]/s (1,318&amp;nbsp;[[Binary prefix|KiB]]/s), in the first drives and media models. More recent models, at 18× or 20×, have 18 or 20 times that speed. Note that for CD drives, 1× means 153.6&amp;nbsp;kB/s (150&amp;nbsp;[[Kibibyte|KiB]]/s), approximately one ninth as fast.&lt;ref name=&quot;DVD Demystified&quot; /&gt; {| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; |+ DVD drive speeds !rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| Drive speed !colspan=&quot;3&quot;| Data rate !colspan=&quot;2&quot;| ~Write time (min)&lt;ref&gt;The write time is wildly optimistic for higher (&gt;4x) write speeds, due to being calculated from the maximum drive write speed instead of the average drive write speed.{{Citation needed|date=April 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; |- ! (Mbit/s) !! (MB/s) !! (MiB/s) ! SL !! DL |- style=&quot;text-align:right&quot; ! 1× | 10.80 || 1.35 || 1.29 || 61 || 107 |- style=&quot;text-align:right&quot; ! 2× | 21.60 || 2.70 || 2.57 || 31 || 54 |- style=&quot;text-align:right&quot; ! 2.4× | 25.92 || 3.24 || 3.09 || 25 || 45 |- style=&quot;text-align:right&quot; ! 2.6× | 28.08 || 3.51 || 3.35 || 23 || 41&lt;!--exact? 3.50?--&gt; |- style=&quot;text-align:right&quot; ! 4× | 43.20 || 5.40 || 5.15 || 15 || 27 |- style=&quot;text-align:right&quot; ! 6× | 64.80 || 8.10 || 7.72 || 10 || 18 |- style=&quot;text-align:right&quot; ! 8× | 86.40 || 10.80 || 10.30 || 8 || 13 |- style=&quot;text-align:right&quot; ! 10× | 108.00 || 13.50 || 12.87 || 6 || 11 |- style=&quot;text-align:right&quot; ! 12× | 129.60 || 16.20 || 15.45 || 5 || 9 |- style=&quot;text-align:right&quot; ! 16× | 172.80 || 21.60 || 20.60 || 4 || 7 |- style=&quot;text-align:right&quot; ! 18× | 194.40 || 24.30 || 23.17 || 3 || 6 |- style=&quot;text-align:right&quot; ! 20× | 216.00 || 27.00 || 25.75 || 3 || 5 |- style=&quot;text-align:right&quot; ! 22× | 237.60 || 29.70 || 28.32 || 3 || 5 |- style=&quot;text-align:right&quot; ! 24× | 259.20 || 32.40 || 30.90 || 3 || 4 |} === Internal mechanism of a drive === {{See also|optical disc drive}} [[Image:Dismdvd.jpg|220px|thumb|right|Internal mechanism of a DVD-ROM Drive. See text for details.]] This mechanism is shown right side up; the disc is above it. The laser and optical system &quot;looks at&quot; the underside of the disc. With reference to the photo, just to the right of image center is the disc spin motor, a gray cylinder, with its gray centering hub and black resilient drive ring on top. A clamp (not in the photo, retained in the drive's cover), pulled down by a magnet, clamps the disc when this mechanism rises, after the disc tray stops moving inward. This motor has an external rotor – every part of it that you can see spins. The gray metal chassis is shock-mounted at its four corners to reduce sensitivity to external shocks, and to reduce drive noise when running fast. The soft shock mount grommets are just below the brass-colored washers at the four corners (the left one is obscured). Running through those grommets are screws to fasten them to the black plastic frame that's underneath. Two parallel precision guide rods that run between upper left and lower right in the photo carry the &quot;[[sled]]&quot;, the moving optical read-write head. As shown, this &quot;sled&quot; is close to, or at the position where it reads or writes at the edge of the disc. A dark gray disc with two holes on opposite sides has a blue lens surrounded by silver-colored metal. This is the lens that's closest to the disc; it serves to both read and write by focusing the laser light to a very small spot. It's likely that this disc rotates half a turn to position a different set of optics (the other &quot;hole&quot;) for CDs vs. DVDs. Under the disc is an ingenious actuator comprising permanent magnets and coils that move the lens up and down to maintain focus on the data layer. As well, the actuator moves the lens slightly toward and away from the spin-motor spindle to keep the spot on track. Both focus and tracking are relatively quite fast and very precise. The same actuator rotates the lens mount half.a turn as described. To select tracks (or files) as well as advancing the &quot;sled&quot; during continuous read or write operations, a stepping motor rotates a coarse-pitch leadscrew to move the &quot;sled&quot; throughout its total travel range. The motor, itself, is the gray cylinder just to the left of the most-distant shock mount; its shaft is parallel to the support rods. The leadscrew, itself, is the rod with evenly-spaced darker details; these are the helical groove that engages a pin on the &quot;sled&quot;. The irregular orange material is flexible etched copper foil supported by thin sheet plastic; these are &quot;flexible printed circuits&quot; that connect everything to the electronics (which is not shown). == DVD recordable and rewritable == {{Main|DVD recordable}} [[Image:Faceplate showing both dvd logo.jpg|thumb|left|Faceplate of a DVD Drive supporting both DVD+ and DVD- formats.]][[Hewlett-Packard|HP]] initially developed recordable DVD media from the need to store data for backup and transport. DVD recordables are now also used for consumer audio and video recording. Three formats were developed: DVD-[[DVD-R|R]]/[[DVD-RW|RW]], DVD+[[DVD+R|R]]/[[DVD+RW|RW]] (plus), and [[DVD-RAM]]. DVD-R is available in two formats, General (650&amp;nbsp;nm) and Authoring (635&amp;nbsp;nm), where Authoring discs may be recorded with encrypted content but General discs may not.&lt;ref&gt;http://www.taperesources.com/dvd_media.html#article2&lt;/ref&gt; Although most DVD writers can nowadays write the DVD+R/RW and DVD-R/RW formats (usually denoted by &quot;DVD±RW&quot; and/or the existence of both the DVD Forum logo and the DVD+RW Alliance logo), the &quot;plus&quot; and the &quot;dash&quot; formats use different writing specifications. Most DVD readers and players will play both kinds of discs, although older models can have trouble with the &quot;plus&quot; variants. == Dual-layer recording ==&lt;!-- This section is linked from [[DVD-DL]] --&gt; Dual-layer recording (sometimes also known as '''double-layer recording''') allows [[DVD-R]] and [[DVD+R]] discs to store significantly more data—up to 8.54 [[gigabyte]]s per disc, compared with 4.7 gigabytes for single-layer discs. Along with this, DVD-DLs have slower write speeds as compared to ordinary DVDs and when played on a DVD player, a slight transition can be seen between the layers. [[DVD-R DL]] was developed for the DVD Forum by [[Pioneer Corporation]]; [[DVD+R DL]] was developed for the DVD+RW Alliance by [[Philips]] and Mitsubishi Kagaku Media (MKM).&lt;ref name=&quot;Dual-layer-BurnWorld&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.burnworld.com/howto/articles/intro-to-dual-layer.htm|title=Understanding Dual Layer DVD Recording |publisher=BurnWorld.com |author=Robert DeMoulin |accessdate=2007-07-06}}&lt;/ref&gt; A dual-layer disc differs from its usual DVD counterpart by employing a second physical layer within the disc itself. The drive with dual-layer capability accesses the second layer by shining the laser through the first semitransparent layer. In some DVD players, the layer change can exhibit a noticeable pause, up to several seconds.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&amp;articles=all&amp;type=&amp;manufacturer=0&amp;maxprice=0&amp;deInt=0&amp;mpeg=0#SamsungBD-P1000%20Blu-ray/DVD%20Player%20(HDMI)|title=DVD players benchmark|publisher=hometheaterhifi.com |accessdate=2008-04-01}}&lt;/ref&gt; This caused some viewers to worry that their dual-layer discs were damaged or defective, with the end result that studios began listing a standard message explaining the dual-layer pausing effect on all dual-layer disc packaging. DVD recordable discs supporting this technology are backward-compatible with some existing DVD players and DVD-ROM drives.&lt;ref name=&quot;Dual-layer-BurnWorld&quot; /&gt; Many current [[DVD recorder]]s support dual-layer technology, and the price is now comparable to that of single-layer drives, although the blank media remain more expensive. The recording speeds reached by dual-layer media are still well below those of single-layer media. There are two modes for dual-layer orientation. With ''Parallel Track Path'' (PTP), used on DVD-ROM, both layers start at the inside diameter (ID) and end at the outside diameter (OD) with the lead-out. With ''[[Opposite Track Path]]'' (OTP), used on many Digital Video Discs, the lower layer starts at the ID and the upper layer starts at the OD, where the other layer ends; they share one [[Lead-in (CD)#Lead-In|lead-in]] and one lead-out. However, some DVDs also use a parallel track, such as those authored episodically, as in a disc with several separate episodes of a TV series—where more often than not, the layer change is in-between titles and therefore would not need to be authored in the opposite track path fashion.{{Citation needed|date=August 2008}}&lt;!-- Original cite removed as it links to irrelevant material --&gt; == DVD-Video == {{Main|DVD-Video}} '''DVD-Video''' is a standard for content on DVD media. The format went on sale in Japan on November 1, 1996, in the United States on March 1, 1997, in Europe on October 1, 1998 and in Australia on February 1, 1999.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=Discount stores are a video lover's channel of choice |publisher=''[[Discount Store News]]'' (via findarticles.com) |date=1998-08-10 |url=http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3092/is_15_37/ai_50241583 |accessdate=2008-03-06}}&lt;/ref&gt; DVD became the dominant form of home video distribution in Japan when it first went on sale in 1996, but did not become the dominant form of home video distribution in the United States until June 15, 2003, when weekly DVD-Video in the United States rentals began outnumbering weekly VHS cassette rentals, reflecting the rapid adoption rate of the technology in the U.S. marketplace.&lt;ref name=&quot;ecommerceandvideodistributiondvd.blogspot.com&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |first=Anna |last=Bakalis |title=It's unreel: DVD rentals overtake videocassettes |publisher=''[[Washington Times]]'' |date=2003-06-20 |url=http://washingtontimes.com/business/20030620-113258-1104r.htm |accessdate=}}&lt;/ref&gt; Currently, DVD-Video is the dominant form of home video distribution worldwide, although in [[Japan]] it was surpassed by [[Blu-ray Disc]] when Blu-ray first went on sale in Japan on March 31, 2006. Although many resolutions and formats are supported, most consumer DVDs use either 4:3 or [[Anamorphic widescreen|anamorphic]] 16:9 [[aspect ratio]] [[MPEG-2]] video, stored at a resolution of 720/704×480 ([[NTSC]]) or 720/704×576 ([[PAL]]) at 29.97, 25, or [[24p#24p on DVD|23.976]] [[framerate|FPS]]. Audio is commonly stored using the [[Dolby Digital]] (AC-3) or [[Digital Theater System]] (DTS) formats, ranging from 16-bits/48&amp;nbsp;kHz to 24-bits/96&amp;nbsp;kHz format with [[monaural]] to 6.1-channel &quot;[[Surround Sound]]&quot; presentation, and/or [[MPEG-1]] Layer 2 and/or LPCM Stereophonic. Although the specifications for video and audio requirements vary by global region and television system, many DVD players [[Multi-standard television|support all possible formats]]. DVD Video also supports features such as menus, selectable subtitles, multiple camera angles, and multiple audio tracks. === Security === {{Main|Content Scramble System}} &lt;!-- Please add some basic summary content to this sub-section. --&gt; === Consumer rights === The rise of [[filesharing]] and &quot;[[Copyright infringement|piracy]]&quot; has prompted many copyright holders to display notices on DVD packaging or displayed on screen when the content is played that warn consumers of the illegality of certain uses of the DVD. It is commonplace to include a 90 second advert warning that most forms of copying the contents is illegal. Many DVDs prevent skipping past or fast-forwarding through this warning, forcing the consumer to watch. &lt;!-- Add text about... ... the DMCA, CSS encryption, and how making backups of one's own purchased video DVDs is illegal because one would be required to violate the DMCA by cracking the CSS encryption on the DVD; ... how this has impacted free DVD playback software on free computer OSes such as Linux (see article on DeCSS); ... consumer protest of the above (by printing CSS cracking software code on t-shirts, for example) --&gt; Arrangements for renting and lending differ by geography. In the U.S., the right to re-sell, rent, or lend out bought DVDs is protected by the [[first-sale doctrine]] under the [[Copyright Act of 1976]]. In Europe, rental and lending rights are more limited, under a 1992 European Directive that gives copyright holders broader powers to restrict the commercial renting and public lending of DVD copies of their work. &lt;!-- Add note about the Librarian of Congress's three-year exemption proclamations, and how DVDs have been at the forefront of the public discussions every time. --&gt; == DVD Audio == {{Main|DVD Audio}} '''DVD Audio''' is a format for delivering high fidelity audio content on a DVD. It offers many channel configuration options (from [[monaural|mono]] to 5.1 [[surround sound]]) at various sampling frequencies (up to 24-bits/192&amp;nbsp;kHz versus [[Compact Disc Digital Audio|CDDA]]'s 16-bits/44.1&amp;nbsp;kHz). Compared with the CD format, the much higher-capacity DVD format enables the inclusion of considerably more music (with respect to total running time and quantity of songs) and/or far higher audio quality (reflected by higher [[sampling rate]]s and greater sample resolution, and/or additional channels for [[spatial sound]] reproduction). Despite DVD Audio's superior technical specifications, there is debate as to whether the resulting audio enhancements are distinguishable in typical listening environments. DVD Audio currently forms a niche market, probably due to the very sort of format war with rival standard [[Super Audio CD|SACD]] that DVD Video avoided. === Security === {{Main|Content Protection for Recordable Media}} DVD Audio discs employ a [[Digital rights management|DRM]] mechanism, called [[Content Protection for Prerecorded Media]] (CPPM), developed by the 4C group (IBM, Intel, Matsushita, and Toshiba). Although CPPM was supposed to be much harder to crack than DVD Video's [[Content Scramble System|CSS]], it too was eventually cracked in 2007 with the release of the ''dvdcpxm'' tool. The subsequent release of the libdvdcpxm library (which is based on dvdcpxm) allowed for the development of open source DVD-Audio players and ripping software, such as [[DVD-Audio Explorer]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url= http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1099342#post1099342|title= DVD-Audio ripper|accessdate=2008-04-09}}&lt;/ref&gt; As a result, making 1:1 copies of DVD-Audio discs is now possible with relative ease, much like DVD-Video discs. == Improvements and succession == === HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc === In 2006, two new formats called [[HD DVD]] and [[Blu-ray Disc]] were released as the successor to DVD. HD DVD competed unsuccessfully with Blu-ray Disc in the [[format war]] [[High definition optical disc format war|of 2006–2008]]. A dual layer HD DVD/Blu-ray Disc can store up to 30/50GB.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=What is Blu-ray Disc? |publisher=Sony |url=http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10551&amp;storeId=10151&amp;langId=-1&amp;identifier=S_BrandShowcase_Blu-ray|accessdate=2008-11-25}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=DVD FAQ: 3.13 – What about the new HD formats? |url=http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#3.13 |accessdate=2008-11-25 |date=2008-09-21}}&lt;/ref&gt; However, unlike previous format changes, e.g., audio tape to compact disc or VHS videotape to DVD, there is no immediate indication that production of the standard DVD will gradually wind down, as they still dominate, with around 87% of video sales and approximately one billion DVD player sales worldwide. In fact experts claim that the DVD will remain the dominant medium for at least another five years as Blu-ray technology is still in its introductory phase, write and read speeds being poor as well as the fact of necessary hardware being expensive and not readily available.&lt;ref name=&quot;ecommerceandvideodistributiondvd.blogspot.com&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.movieweb.com/dvd/news/20/26720.php |title=High-Definition Sales Far Behind Standard DVD's First Two Years |publisher=Movieweb.com |date=2008-02-20 |accessdate=2009-08-22}}&lt;/ref&gt; Consumers initially were also slow to adopt Blu-ray due to the cost.&lt;ref&gt;http://seekingalpha.com/article/171207-slow-blu-ray-adoption-a-threat-to-hollywood-s-bottom-line&lt;/ref&gt; By 2009, 85% of stores were selling [[Blu-ray Disc]]s. A high-definition television and appropriate connection cables are also required to take advantage of Blu-ray disc. Some analysts suggest that the biggest obstacle to replacing DVD is due to its installed base; a large majority of consumers are satisfied with DVDs.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal|url=http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_16/b3879008_mz001.htm |title=Gates And Ballmer On &quot;Making The Transition&quot; |publisher=BusinessWeek |date=2004-04-19 |accessdate=2009-08-22}}&lt;/ref&gt; The DVD succeeded because it offered a compelling alternative to VHS. In addition, Blu-ray players are designed to be [[backward-compatible]], allowing older DVDs to be played since the media are physically identical; this differed from the change from vinyl to CD and from tape to DVD, which involved a complete change in physical medium. This situation can be best compared to the changeover from [[Gramophone record#78 rpm disc developments|78 rpm]] shellac recordings to 45 rpm and 33⅓ rpm vinyl recordings; because the medium used for the earlier format was virtually the same as the latter version (a disc on a turntable, played using a needle), [[phonographs]] continued to be built to play obsolete 78s for decades after the format was discontinued. Manufacturers continue to release standard DVD titles as of 2010, and the format remains the preferred one for the release of older television programs and films, with some programs such as ''[[Star Trek: The Original Series]]'' needing to be re-scanned to produce a high definition version from the original film recordings (certain special effects were also updated in order to be better received in high-definition viewing).&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=24344 |title=Kirk/Spock STAR TREK To Get All-New HD Spaceships |publisher=Aintitcool.com |date= |accessdate=2009-08-22}}{{Verify credibility|date=August 2009}}&lt;/ref&gt; In the case of ''[[Doctor Who]]'', a series primarily produced on standard definition videotape between 1963 and 1989, [[BBC Video]] reportedly intends to continue issuing DVD-format releases of that series until at least November 2013 (since there would be very little increase in visual quality from upconverting the standard definition videotape masters to high definition).&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.dwin.org/expressionengine/index.php/site/comments/the_mind_of_evil_in_colour_just_not_yet_and_more/ |title=The Mind of Evil in Color Just Not Yet and More |publisher=Doctor Who Information Network |date= 2009-10-23|accessdate=2010-04-25}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Holographic Versatile Disc === The [[Holographic Versatile Disc]] (HVD) is an optical disc technology that may one day hold up to 4 terabytes (TB) of information, although the current maximum is 500GB. It employs a technique known as collinear holography. === 5D DVD === The [[5D DVD]], being developed in the [[Swinburne University of Technology]] in [[Melbourne]], [[Australia]], uses a multilaser system to encode and read data on multiple layers. Disc capacities are estimated at up to 10 terabytes, and the technology could be commercially ready within ten years.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news | title='5D' storage could hold 2,000 times more than 1 DVD | url=http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2009/05/22/tech-5d-storage-dvd-polarization-colours-3d-swinburne-chon-nature.html | publisher=Canadian Broadcasting Corporation |agency=CBC News | date=2009-05-22 | accessdate=2009-05-29}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Use as backup medium == There are two considerations for a [[backup]] medium: [[obsolescence]] and durability. If the [[Specification (technical standard)|specifications]] of the DVD format are not preserved and there is no device that can read the medium, it might be hard to re-create devices that can read DVDs, making it very hard to retrieve the data. {{or|date=October 2010}} Durability of DVDs is measured by how long the data may be read from the disc, assuming compatible devices exist that can read it: that is, how long the disc can be stored until data is lost. Five factors affect durability: sealing method, reflective layer, organic dye makeup, where it was manufactured, and storage practices.&lt;ref name=&quot;adterrasperaspera.com&quot;&gt;{{cite web|title=How To Choose CD/DVD Archival Media|date=2006-10-30|url=http://adterrasperaspera.com/blog/2006/10/30/how-to-choose-cddvd-archival-media|accessdate=2009-03-14}}&lt;/ref&gt; The longevity of the ability to read from a DVD+R or DVD-R, is largely dependent on manufacturing quality ranging from 2 to 15 years,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Optical Media Longetivity|url=http://www.thexlab.com/faqs/opticalmedialongevity.html|accessdate=2010-02-26}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=DVD Durability|url=http://www.backupcritic.com/backup-media/dvd/durability.html|accessdate=2010-02-26}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=The Life-Span of DVDs|url=http://www.larryjordan.biz/articles/lj_dvd_life.html|accessdate=2010-02-26|date=january 2006}}&lt;/ref&gt; and is believed to be an unreliable medium for backup unless great care is taken for storage conditions and handling. According to the [[Optical Storage Technology Association]] (OSTA), &quot;manufacturers claim life spans ranging from 30 to 100 years for DVD, DVD-R and DVD+R discs and up to 30 years for DVD-RW, DVD+RW and DVD-RAM&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=How long will data recorded on writable DVD discs remain readable?|url=http://www.osta.org/technology/dvdqa/dvdqa11.htm|accessdate=2009-03-14}}&lt;/ref&gt; == See also == * [[Book type]] * [[Content Scramble System]] * [[Digital video recorder]] (DVR) * [[DVD authoring]] * [[DVD region code]] * [[DVD TV game]] * [[Evita (film)|Evita]] (first film to be ever released on DVD) * [[IFO]], [[BUP]] and [[VOB]] == References == {{Reflist|2}} == Further reading == * {{cite web |first=Hugh |last=Bennett |title=Understanding Recordable &amp; Rewritable DVD |publisher=Optical Storage Technology Association |date=April 2004 |url=http://www.osta.org/technology/dvdqa/ |accessdate=2006-12-17 }} * Labarge, Ralph. ''DVD Authoring and Production''. Gilroy, Calif.: CMP Books, 2001. ISBN 1-57820-082-2. * Taylor, Jim. ''DVD Demystified, 2nd edition''. New York: [[McGraw-Hill]] Professional, 2000. ISBN 0-07-135026-8. == External links == {{commons}} {{wikibooks|All About Converting From Several Video Formats To DVD}} * [http://search.dmoz.org/cgi-bin/search?search=dvd DVD] at the [[dmoz|Open Directory Project]] * [http://www.burnworld.com/howto/articles/intro-to-dual-layer.htm Dual Layer Explained]&amp;nbsp;– Informational Guide to the Dual Layer Recording Process * [http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html DVD Frequently Asked Questions (and Answers)] * [http://dvd-burning-software.toptenreviews.com/dvd-burning-and-ripping.html DVD Burning and Ripping: A Primer, A Glossary] * [http://www.youtube.com/user/eyeh8cbs#p/u/14/NSY5rVzsTBc YouTube: Segment from 1997 Toshiba DVD demo disc]&amp;nbsp;– Technical information about the then-new DVD format, from &quot;DVD Gallery,&quot; an in-store demonstration disc from Toshiba. {{Video storage formats}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Dvd}} [[Category:Computer storage media]] [[Category:Audio storage]] [[Category:Video storage]] [[Category:DVD]] [[Category:120 mm discs]] [[Category:Consumer electronics]] [[Category:1995 introductions]] [[Category:Joint ventures]] [[af:DVD]] [[als:DVD]] [[ar:دي في دي]] [[ast:DVD]] [[az:DVD]] [[bn:ডিভিডি]] [[bs:DVD]] [[bg:DVD]] [[ca:DVD]] [[cs:DVD]] [[cy:DVD]] [[da:Dvd]] [[de:DVD]] [[et:DVD]] [[el:DVD]] [[es:DVD]] [[eo:DVD]] [[eu:DVD]] [[fa:دی‌وی‌دی]] [[fr:DVD]] [[fy:DVD]] [[gl:DVD]] [[ko:DVD]] [[hy:DVD]] [[hi:DVD]] [[hr:DVD]] [[io:DVD]] [[id:DVD]] [[ia:DVD]] [[is:Mynddiskur]] [[it:DVD]] [[he:DVD]] [[pam:DVD]] [[ka:დვდ]] [[la:Discus versatilis digitalis]] [[lv:DVD]] [[lt:DVD]] [[hu:DVD]] [[mk:Дигитален видео диск]] [[ml:ഡിജിറ്റൽ വെർസറ്റൈൽ ഡിസ്ക്]] [[mr:डीव्हीडी]] [[ms:DVD]] [[nah:Vīdeocaquizcopīnalōni]] [[nl:Dvd]] [[ne:डि भी डि]] [[ja:DVD]] [[no:DVD]] [[nn:DVD]] [[pnb:ڈی وی ڈی]] [[pl:DVD]] [[pt:DVD]] [[ro:DVD]] [[qu:Ñit'isqa ñawra phiruru]] [[ru:DVD]] [[sq:DVD]] [[scn:DVD]] [[simple:DVD]] [[sk:DVD]] [[sl:DVD]] [[so:DVD]] [[sr:DVD]] [[sh:DVD]] [[fi:DVD]] [[sv:DVD]] [[tl:DVD]] [[ta:டிவிடி]] [[th:ดีวีดี]] [[tg:DVD]] [[tr:DVD]] [[tk:DVD]] [[uk:DVD]] [[ur:رقمی منظری قرص]] [[vi:DVD]] [[yo:DVD]] [[zh-yue:DVD]] [[zh:DVD]]</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Now_That%27s_What_I_Call_Music!_77_(UK_series)&diff=394895282</id> <title>Now That's What I Call Music! 77 (UK series)</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Now_That%27s_What_I_Call_Music!_77_(UK_series)&diff=394895282"/> <updated>2010-11-05T00:47:46Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Reverted to revision 394386826 by TFOWR; Unreleased speculation, per WP:CRYSTAL, etc. (TW) <hr /> <div>#REDIRECT [[Now That's What I Call Music! discography#Original series]]</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Unicorn&diff=394888506</id> <title>Talk:Unicorn</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Unicorn&diff=394888506"/> <updated>2010-11-05T00:07:10Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: /* Edit request from Flutation, 5 November 2010 */ {{cn}} <hr /> <div>{{WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology|class=B}} {{Template:Wikiproject_mythology|class=B|importance=mid}} {{WPMA}} {{talkheader}} ==BBC Broadcast - recommended further reading == Program &quot;In Our Time&quot; broadcast on Thursday, 21:30 on BBC Radio 4 * presenter: Melvyn Bragg guests: * Juliette Wood (Associate Lecturer in Folklore at Cardiff University) * Lauren Kassell (Lecturer in the History and Philosophy of Science at the University of Cambridge) * David Ekserdjian (Professor of the History of Art and Film at the University of Leicester) Recommended Further Reading: * 'The Natural History of Unicorns' by Chris Lavers (Granta, 2009) ISBN 978-1847080622 * 'Wonders and the Order of Nature' by Lorraine Daston and Katharine Park (Zone, 1998) ISBN 0-942299-90-6. * 'The Lore of the Unicorn' by O Shepard (London, Unwin and Allen, 1930) ISBN 978-1437508536 * 'The Unicorn' by Lise Gotfredsen (New York: Abbeville Press, 1999) ISBN 978-1860462672 [[User:Timpo|Timpo]] ([[User talk:Timpo|talk]]) 10:53, 30 October 2010 (UTC) == Medieval times== ''In medieval times, [[entrepreneur]]s would occasionally manufacture a unicorn by surgery on a [[goat]] kid: they would remove one horn bud and relocate the other to the centre of the forehead. (This technique continued to as recently as the 20th century, for circus displays.)'' I deleted this text. It is a fantasy based on unfamiliarity with medieval surgery. [[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 20:06, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC) : While I agree on deletion of a potentially suspicious passage given without a reference, I'd rather not underestimate the ancient surgery; see, e.g., [[Trepanation]]. [[User:Mikkalai|Mikkalai]] 20:17, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC) :: The actual procedure is much simpler and well within the bounds of medieval surgery: the two horn buds are incised at the points where they face each other, and then bound together so that they fuse as they grow into a single horn with two &quot;roots&quot;. Neither is either removed or relocated.[[User:Rosencomet|Rosencomet]] ([[User talk:Rosencomet|talk]]) 18:35, 27 November 2007 (UTC) In reality, unicorns do not look like horses, as they do in books and such, they are actually goats or rams which have one horn on their head due to birth defects. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/71.214.39.92|71.214.39.92]] ([[User talk:71.214.39.92|talk]]) 01:51, 1 December 2009 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; ==Virgin Girls== '' The unicorn is known to be attracted to virgin girls. When he finds one wandering alone in the woods, he &quot;lays down&quot; with her, and &quot;puts his head in her lap&quot;. In Old English, this is an obvious metaphor for rape. In modern times, the unicorn has been romanticised as a creature of grace and beauty, and its origin as a cautionary tale for young girls has been lost.'' Just because it's legendary, doesn't mean we can simply invent anything. Notice the passive voice in the first sentence. [[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 16:36, 5 May 2004 (UTC) :(moved from [[User Talk:Wetman]]) Hey, regarding &quot;unicorn&quot;: If I'm using bad grammar, go ahead and fix it. If you feel I need to site my sources, go ahead and let me know. Don't assume I'm making things up. In the language analysis department, I suggest you go back to your Shakespeare. Compare the unabridged to the abridged editions of Macbeth, especially the scene with the play. The particular methods of capturing the unicorn have been recounted in every story involving unicorn lore that I've ever read- try &quot;The Unicorn in Myth and Legend&quot;.thanks, Pat [[User:Patterson]] ::If the unicorn imagery in [[William Shakespeare]] and his contemporaries is the subject, Patterson should state it. There's already a relevent subsection that could be expanded. What the image meant to Shakespeare (interesting addition to genuine history of the legend) probably does not include an [[Old English]] [[metaphor]] for [[rape]], however. Find the relevent Shakespeare quotes and use them. Draw some conclusions.Question: is the unicorn a metaphor of ''unbridled'' passion in animal nature. Is Nature tamed by the Virgin? As for rape, Shakespeare wrote a whole poem in his early days: ''The Rape of lucrece''. That's a place to look for Shakespeare's feelings about rape. A discussion of Rüdiger Robert Beer, ''Unicorn: myth and reality'' 1977 would be useful here too. [[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 23:00, 5 May 2004 (UTC) :Troubling aspects of the phallus/virgin relationship are undeniable in the unicorn legend (and strangely overlooked in Shepard's otherwise exhaustive &quot;The Lore of the Unicorn&quot;), however w/r/t presenting the unicorn as rapist i think it's worth noting that in a great deal of the virgin/unicorn legends, the virgin is a willing participant in The Hunt, in which invariably the unicorn ends up dead. Usually while still in the virgin's lap. So while i think there's obviously some phallo-dominion stuff to consider here, it's pretty far from a simple rapist/victim story. --[[User:doc ocelot|doc ocelot]] 20060619 ==Invisible Pink Unicorn== &quot;The [[Invisible Pink Unicorn]] is an [[internet]] created fictional deity as a satire of religions.&quot; Does this belong at [[Satire]]? It doesn't belong at [[Pink]] does it? Or [[Religion]]? Can Wikipedia plug just every vacuous burlesque of everything? [[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 23:15, 19 May 2004 (UTC) :I'm not sure what you mean by asking where this article &quot;belongs&quot;. It has its own page, so it doesn't need to belong to any other article in particular. [[User:Bryan Derksen|Bryan]] 03:32, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC) ==Reem== Should discuss the &quot;reem&quot; of the Bible. --[[User:Daniel C. Boyer|Daniel C. Boyer]] 17:52, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC) OK; I've written a bit. It could stand some expansion, though. --Ben Standeven ==Circus== Should discuss 1980s circus appearance of unicorn colt. --[[User:Daniel C. Boyer|Daniel C. Boyer]] 17:56, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC) ==Unicorn skeleton== I removed the following passage because it makes no sense: how did Leibniz, who died in 1716, manage to study a skeleton discovered in the 1760s? More information is needed before this can be put in the article. [[User:The Singing Badger|The Singing Badger]] 21:12, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC) :''Allegedly, however, the skull, with a seven-foot-long horn, survived. One hundred years later'' [i.e. one hundred years after 1663]'', a similar skeleton was unearthed at Einhornloch; both skeletons were examined by [[Liebniz]], who, after having doubted the existence of the creature, claimed to have been converted by this evidence.'' ==COLLECTIVE NOUN - A Rainbow of .., OR: A Glory of .., OR: A Blessing of Unicorns== This was just added by an anon to the fiction section: :A group of unicorns is sometimes referred to as a &quot;Rainbow of Unicorns.&quot; Anyone know which fictional setting is this referring to? It should be attributed. [[User:Bryan Derksen|Bryan]] 07:54, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC) It's been changed to &quot;glory of unicorns&quot; now, which apparently comes from a book by [[Bruce Coville]]. The funny thing is that unicorns are usually imagined as solitary creatures. &amp;#8212;[[User:Mirv|Charles&amp;nbsp;P.]][[User talk:Mirv|&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;(Mirv)&lt;/small&gt;]] 03:18, 10 May 2005 (UTC) :Exactly true. I've removed the bit, partly because it's misleading. &quot;Unicorns come in collectible sets boxed with cellophane windows. Unicoprns lose resale value when removed from the box.&quot; --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 03:53, 10 May 2005 (UTC) A blessing of unicorns - Under 'Blessing' in Wikipedia, one reference is [quote] Blessing is the collective noun for a group of Unicorns [unquote]. Should that literary whimsy of the English language be included somewhere in this item? 203.129.39.106 12:08, 27 May 2007 (UTC)JayD203.129.39.106 12:08, 27 May 2007 (UTC) :It's already mentioned at the end of the second paragraph under &quot;Medieval unicorns.&quot; However, most of those collective terms that show up in lists (&quot;exaltation of larks&quot; and such) have never actually enjoyed any usage in the English language outside of the lists themselves. I'd be inclined to remove the factoid both here and in [[Blessing]]. What do others think? [[User:Deor|Deor]] ([[User talk:Deor|talk]]) 13:39, 17 August 2009 (UTC) ::Agree. It is not in common usage, in fact all references probably go back to just one inventive coinage. [[User:Dbfirs|''&lt;font face=&quot;verdana&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;D&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#00ccff&quot;&gt;b&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#44ffcc&quot;&gt;f&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;66ff66&quot;&gt;i&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;44ee44&quot;&gt;r&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;44aa44&quot;&gt;s&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/font&gt;'']] 10:12, 22 August 2009 (UTC) == lascaux painting == Does anyone seriously think that [[:Image:Paleo ptg lascaux unicorn.jpg|this painting]] depicts a unicorn? It's called &quot;the Unicorn&quot;, sure, but it ''clearly'' has two horns. &amp;#8212;[[User:Mirv|Charles]][[User talk:Mirv|&amp;nbsp;P.]][[Special:Emailuser/Mirv|&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;(Mirv)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 14:09, 9 May 2005 (UTC) :I agree with you. I think the reason why it is called the unicorn is that no one knows what kind of animal it is.--[[User:Wiglaf|Wiglaf]] 19:22, 9 May 2005 (UTC) ::Again, if you guys had done your Art History homework, you would have known that the only reason that the Lascaux cave painting is considered to be a unicorn, is because it bears a striking resemblance to the unicorns depicted on several signant rings if the Indus Valley. ::And no, these are not just poor drawings of bulls because at the same time there also exists signant rings with very carefully drawn pictures of bulls on them. ::The Lascaux painting is important because it shows that other persons in other parts of the world, besides the Indus Valley, had actually seen the same animals. ::Also, the &quot;poor drawing&quot; argument doesn't hold water here either since there is an entire cave full of carefully drawn depictions of bulls at Lascaux; each one being exact down to the last detail. ::What you're proposing to say is that on this one particular occassion an inexperienced artist was allowed to mar the surface of this sacred cave without any corrections by another artist? ::That does not compute [[Lost in Space|Dr Smith]]. ::Further, the [[Bible]] that you speak of in the [[Book of Job]] states: does not the unicorn roam in the plains of Uz? [pronounced: &quot;ooz&quot;; present day [[India]]] ::Also, it is [[jurisprudence|jurisprudent]], if you will, among art historians &amp;ndash; especially among those who are atheist &amp;ndash; to accept the actuality of the the &quot;unknown creature&quot; phenominum at Lascaux, as opposed to continued, &quot;bull-headed&quot; arguments to replace what their eye sees with something more &quot;comfortable&quot; &amp;ndash; whatever that could be. ::[[User:WB2|WB2]] 06:01, 18 December 2005 (UTC) == Unicorn in heraldry == AFAIK, the famous German poet Schiller had a unicorn in his coat of arms. Is anybody able to verify this? :Granted to Schiller personally, and selected by him? --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 18:16, 10 May 2005 (UTC)(flaig@sanctacaris.net) Despite it being the heraldic supporter for the Scottish royal arms, there is a remarkable dearth of Gaelic translational distionary information on the Unicorn. This is because Buabhall sounds very rude to the Anglophone if properly pronounced and is a secret pun. [[Special:Contributions/211.26.158.138|211.26.158.138]] ([[User talk:211.26.158.138|talk]]) 13:31, 13 June 2008 (UTC) Ian Ison How to use this site is not immediately obvious.. Lysva the Russian city also has a unicorn in its heraldry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysva could this picture be added to the article? &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Blacklung|Blacklung]] ([[User talk:Blacklung|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Blacklung|contribs]]) 07:51, 26 July 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; ==Duplicating &quot;Sources in antiquity&quot;== The following text adds nothing to what is already more specifically treated in &quot;Sources in antiquity&quot;: :''Although unicorns are mythical creatures, many scholars have wondered whether the myth might be distantly based on a real animal. :''The latin name for unicorn (c.f. Kirchner, Athanasius -- Arca Noee) differs by only one letter from the latin name for rhinocerous, leading some to speculate that the modern unicorn was a myth spawned by stories of the rhino related by Europeans who had returned from the crusades. Some editor seems unaware of unicorns in antiquity at all. Is there anything here to return, in better more specific condition, to the article? --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 20:18, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) == Unicorn in Popular Culture == One very frequently (including Simpsons and an Irish Rovers song) hears references to unicorns being gone because they 'missed the Ark'.. someone could work that in, as well as sightings of that reference. : There was a Charles Addams cartoon depicting a scene where the ark is drifting away. In the foreground there stands, perched on a disapparing mountian peak, two unicorns. I have a copy of the cartoon in hardcopy. I have not been able to locate one in softcopy to reference here. [[User:Throckmorton Guildersleeve|Throckmorton Guildersleeve]] ([[User talk:Throckmorton Guildersleeve|talk]]) 14:14, 3 January 2008 (UTC) peter pan records produced &quot;all-time children's hits vol. 2&quot; performed by the &quot;puff 'n' toot singers and orchestra.&quot; i can find no copyright date. it has a song called &quot;the unicorn&quot; that tells the whole story of the ark and, specifically, how the unicorns were too busy playing to get on the boat. chorus goes &quot;green aligators and long neck geese, hump back camels and chimpanzes, cats and rats and elephants but sure as you're born, you're never gonna see no unicorn.&quot; i loved this song when i was little, and have encountered very churchy people who surprisingly never heard it at all.[[User:76.217.120.251|76.217.120.251]] 14:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC) it's me again, the lyrics are attributed to shel silverstien on this site http://www.thebards.net/music/lyrics/The_Unicorn_Song.shtml but the aforementioned puff n' toot orchestra streamlined it a little. [[User:76.217.120.251|76.217.120.251]] 15:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC) ==Hebrew &quot;unicorn&quot; in ''Job''== Some anonymous passer-by thinks the following passage ''documents a domesticated unicorn contemporary with Job&quot;&quot;! :The translators of the King James Version of the Bible (1611) employed unicorn to translate [missing Hebrew word] in Book of Job 39:9-12, providing an animal that was proverbial for its untamable nature for the unanswerable [[rhetorical question]]s: ::&quot;Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib? Canst thou bind the unicorn with band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee? Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? or wilt thou leave thy labour to him? Wilt thou believe him, that he will bring home thy seed, and gather it into thy barn?&quot; Surely these rhetorical questions are clear enough as the section stands. Or is it not? Can one of us provide the missing Hebrew word that the KJV scholars translated &quot;unicorn&quot;? Thanks. --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 03:16, 31 July 2005 (UTC) Apparently other translations translate the word to be &quot;wild ox.&quot; &quot;An animal called the re'em is mentioned in several places in the Bible, often as a metaphor representing strength.&quot; Since it is &quot;often&quot; used as a metaphor representing strength what is it used to represent when not representing strength? Also, how do we know for a fact that it is indeed a metaphor and not meant to be taken litteraly? Some one help me on this one please. [[User:Typhoid Orchid|Typhoid Orchid]] 22:50, 12 September 2006 (UTC) *Ironically, it was often a featured item at Jerusalem delis: Unicorned beef. [[User:Wahkeenah|Wahkeenah]] 22:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC) :You again! [[User:Totnesmartin|Totnesmartin]] 23:07, 22 November 2006 (UTC) ::You again! :) [[User:Wahkeenah|Wahkeenah]] 00:19, 23 November 2006 (UTC) *r'em reh-ame' or rieym reh-ame'; ::or reym rame; ::or rem rame; :from ra'am raw-am' a primitive root; to rise:--be lifted up.; :a wild bull (from its conspicuousness):--unicorn - http://strongsnumbers.com/hebrew/7214.htm - http://www.recyclethebible.com/hebrew_lex.php?num=7214 &lt;small&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/80.203.38.160|80.203.38.160]] ([[User talk:80.203.38.160|talk]]) 07:09, 13 December 2007 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; ==&quot;Bicorn&quot; of &quot;Celtic Mythology&quot;== Is there anything to the following text? Where does the &quot;bicorn&quot; appear &quot;in Celtic Mythology&quot;? What is the connection with the Unicorn? Wouldn't a &quot;See also&quot; fully cover this-- if there actually were an entry [[Bicorn]]? --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 01:12, 11 August 2005 (UTC) :''&quot;There is also a creature in [[Celtic Mythology]] called [[bicorn]], though who is dark blue or black instead of white and with two large bowed horns instead of just one. While the unicorn is benevolent, the bicorn is entirely malevolent, and attack anything it doesn't care for.&quot;'' My Dear celtic theme query encyclope_: Classic Unicorn has little to do with celtic tradition.Gajus Julius Ceasar in his Bellum Gallicum feeds the fiction of a real horse category which has the &quot;differentia specifica&quot; of one &quot;corn&quot;. Caesar writes that this &quot;kind&quot; of horse in the French forests can sleep upwards because this horse uses that &quot;corn&quot; as a leverage and sleeping tree bar. (Source:My Kitchen Latin reading of &quot;De Bellum Gallicum&quot;, Caesar, G.J. ) PostSkriptum: Take note that I was forced as a very young man to read such logical blunder and today see it as what it always was. :There &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; such a thing as a bicorne or bicorn in mythology. However, it's of medieval European origin, not Celtic mythology. Also, it (at least from my experience) has never been described as blue/black and &quot;entirely malevolent&quot;. It was mentioned in the [[Canterbury Tales]] and said to be fat from eating hen-pecked, obedient husbands. Har, har. Classic medieval humor. I may have heard of it being described as a type of panther, with no mention of horns. See Carol Rose's &lt;i&gt;Giants, Dragons, Monsters: An Encyclopedia&lt;/i&gt; for reference. [[User:67.167.26.239|67.167.26.239]] 03:07, 22 January 2007 (UTC) Chris G. == rigorous application of NPOV == can produce real silliness sometimes. :''Most people currently maintain, based in part on the claims of [[Denmark|Danish]] zoologist [[Ole Worm]], [http://www.occultopedia.com/u/unicorn.htm] that [[narwhal]] tusks provided the main source of &quot;unicorn&quot; horns in medieval times; however, there was concern about false horns being passed off as the real thing, and various &quot;tests&quot; were developed supposedly enabling one to tell the difference between the fake and authentic horns.'' ''Most people currently maintain'' that what were thought to be unicorn horns are actually something else. (''Most people currently maintain'' that Santa Claus does not deliver presents in a sleigh drawn by reindeer.) A naturalist's comparison of supposed unicorn horns with narwhal tusks is just a &quot;claim&quot;, and of course there were ''tests'' to distinguish fake unicorn horns from the real thing! Tests, I tell you! Who writes this stuff? &amp;#8212;[[User:Mirv|Charles&amp;nbsp;P.]][[User talk:Mirv|&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;(Mirv)&lt;/small&gt;]] 09:47, 10 November 2005 (UTC) ==Made-up symbolism?== I removed this here: ''&quot;The unicorn also served as a common symbol of indomitable pride and purity and of [[Jesus]].&quot;'' Anyone who can find the unicorn used to symbolize ''any'' of these traits should quote a source and work it into the article. Indomitable pride ''and'' Jesus! --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 05:57, 11 December 2005 (UTC) : absolutely to the contrary! the unicorn was widely regarded as a symbol of Jesus throughout the middle ages. Pride and Purity i think go without needing sources. Quothe Shepard quoting [[physiologus|the Physiologus]]: ''In its simpler versions this interpretation likens the unicorn directly to Christ: its one horn is said to signify the unity of Christ and the Father; its fierceness and defiance of the hunter are to remind us that neither Principalities nor Powers not Thrones were able control the Messiah against His will; its small stature is a symbol of Christ's humility and its lieness to a kid of His association with sinfull men. The virgin is help to represent the Virgin Mary and the huntsman is the Holy Spirit acting through the Angel Gabriel. Taken as a whole, then, the story of the unicorn's capture typifies the Incarnation of Christ.'' - Odell Shepard, &quot;the lore of the unicorn&quot;, 1930. i'm somewhat new to wikipedia and thus shy of editing the original article, so if someone feels like doing that, please. -- [[User:doc ocelot|doc ocelot]] 20060619 == Nelneskai? == I recently heard about a story of a Druidic or Celtic Unicorn, named Nelneskai, or something to similiar spelling. It said something about a young man finding and taming a unicorn, and it protecting him from demons and devils. I haven't found any information, but I have had a similiar dream to the story, and have found a fascinating Unicorn figurine after a dream, so vivid. I woke up to see a Unicorn figurine that shimmers upon looking upon it. I have only heard stories. Maybe someone could identify this for me. Thank you. - I think dreams would be classified as original research [[Special:Contributions/71.231.143.65|71.231.143.65]] ([[User talk:71.231.143.65|talk]]) 06:56, 29 May 2008 (UTC) == KIDNEY? == P.T. Barnum once exhibited a unicorn skeleton that was exposed as a hoax. It turned out to be a plot to steal kidneys. What does this mean? I'm deleting it. If someone can explain how this isn't vandalism, please re-edit and cite your sources. ==Too many cartoons?== Unicorn hunt: &quot;Another involved angering a unicorn, fleeing from it toward a [[tree]] when it charged, and diving out of the way just before the tree, causing the unicorn to strike the tree, rendering it [[death|dead]], [[unconsciousness|unconscious]], or stuck, held by its horn in the [[wood]].&quot; Right! Accompanied by the sound '''spron-n-ng''' no doubt. I removed this schtick here. --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 21:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC) ==Unicorn = Homosexuality???== I read a news item this week about some military outfit in Afghanistan that named itself after the unicorn but changed it when they &quot;discovered&quot; it was some sort of euphemism for gayness. I've never heard this before, and there's nothing on Wikipedia about it either. Does anyone have any idea what this supposed connection between the word &quot;unicorn&quot; and homosexuality is all about? [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 13:31, 17 May 2006 (UTC) --Unfortunate as it is, it's very simple. Just that the &quot;macho&quot; types think that guys who like unicorns must be gay. That's all there is to it. ([[User:Yoshiaki Abe|Yoshiaki Abe]] 21:05EST 09/01/07) &lt;small&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Yoshiaki Abe|Yoshiaki Abe]] ([[User talk:Yoshiaki Abe|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Yoshiaki Abe|contribs]]) 01:05, 2 September 2007 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; --There is also the Eunuch Horn symbolism I came across when I sent a Xmas card with a unicorn to a guy who'd had a vasectomy who took umbrage at the implied insult (of which I was completely innocent). [[Special:Contributions/211.26.158.138|211.26.158.138]] ([[User talk:211.26.158.138|talk]]) 13:22, 13 June 2008 (UTC) Ian Ison == Shepard's The Lore of the Unicorn == Very, very many of the historical issues on this discussion page are admirably cleared up by Odell Shepard's 1930 &quot;the lore of the unicorn&quot;. He covers the prehistorical, ancient, medieval, renaissance, and modern history of the unicorn, is replete with sources, etc. The only thing i feel he's lacking as a serious treatment of the unicorn legend is any consideration at all of phallic imagery. Possibly i'm still in 7th grade at heart, but i think it demands at least a little historical attention. -- [[user:doc ocelot|doc ocelot]] 20060620 The unicorn predates Freud. Is a tree phallic or is a phallus tree-like? Let's not force revisionist interpretations where there is no evidence. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/173.70.245.205|173.70.245.205]] ([[User talk:173.70.245.205|talk]]) 17:43, 31 August 2009 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; == Latin name? == Has the uncicorn ever had a scientific name? Like ''Monoceridos monoceros'' or something similar? [[User:Shandris|''Shandris'']][[User:Shandris|&lt;font color=&quot;cb5f0f&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;the &lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]][[User_talk:Shandris|&lt;font color=&quot;cb5f0f&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;azylean&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] 06:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC) Though [http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0030-1299%28199008%2958%3A3%3C257%3ASDOTMU%3E2.0.CO%3B2-S&amp;size=LARGE&amp;origin=JSTOR-enlargePage one scientific paper] that I've seen proposes a latin name, that paper was in jest and merely written as an example of how to create spatial distribution models and use sampling to determine populations. It does use monoceros for the species though, and montanus as the second name to denote unicorns found mostly in montana. Perhaps that is the first, official, citable publication with the latin name though? [[User:Owlmonkey|Owlmonkey]] 15:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC) Unicorn is of course latin for one horn. It features in the Latin for the rhino-&lt;i&gt;rhinoceros unicorn.&lt;/i&gt; [[Special:Contributions/78.148.48.250|78.148.48.250]] ([[User talk:78.148.48.250|talk]]) 19:30, 13 January 2010 (UTC) ==Some assertions from modern fantasy== The following quirky assertions seem to be personal ones, perhaps drawn from the television ([[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 04:40, 20 July 2006 (UTC)): *It has often been suggested or shown that it is the females that are pure white. Males have been described as jet black with an orange mane and tail. [Representations in the visual arts since the fifteenth century show that this is just not so.] *Although they are generally thought of as legendary, there have been various unicorn spottings in many regions of Brazil. [A unicorn spotted in Brazil would make headlines, and perhaps a Discovery Channel special. Hasn't been reported.] *Seen as a symbol of immortality, grace, purity, love and the magic of working miracles, the unicorn is oftentimes used as a metaphor for Christ, many times playing opposite the red bull, a common representation of [[Satan]]. [Unicorn as a symbol of Christ is sourced and mentioned. Does any visual representation ever make this supposed contrast of unicorn and bull, or is this a will o' the wisp?] :The white unicorn vs. the red bull is from Peter S. Beagle's &lt;i&gt;The Last Unicorn&lt;/i&gt;. In the movie &lt;i&gt;Legend&lt;/i&gt;, the Devil character was bright red and had horns of a [[steer]]--which may be where the unicorn as Christ and red bull as Satan comes from. [[User:67.167.26.239|67.167.26.239]] 22:07, 22 January 2007 (UTC) Chris G. ==Biblical Tachash== The bible reports the use of skins from the TACHASH for Tabernacle drapery. The Talmud reports that it has one horn. KJV mistakenly translates tachash as badger, however, that is a mistake from the Latin taxus. Does anyone have information regarding the possible connection between the Talmudic account of the tachash and the unicorn? == Garbled link == Can anyone make out this link, which doesn't Google or appear at Amazon.com: &quot;Zárate, Mario E. ''[Unicorn Live]'' Lima-Perú: [2006]&quot; Is this a vanity link from www.mariozarate.com? --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 21:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC) == &quot;Made up&quot; == The following phrases were added, twice, by 72.130.226.105: ''Long Ago, Native Americans strapped corn to their horses heads in attempts to fight off the Vegetable spirits and bring good crops and keep diseases and pests from their fields. ''When settlers from Indonesia arrived they say this weird ritual and depicted the creatures as horses with one [uni] horn on their head. Keeping with the originality of it being corn called them Unicorns. '' [made.up.] '' I find this comment very hard to believe, not just because of the last phrase! I'd appreciate a source for this comment. [[User:Chipuni|Chip Unicorn]] 17:39, 20 September 2006 (UTC) == Alicorn == In the text the alicorn is depicted as the unicorn's horn, however in [[Cantabria]]'s mythology it is a winged unicorn. There is more information in http://tuscriaturas.blogia.com/2004/junio.php and http://personales.mundivia.es/llera/mitologia.htm. Please if you can correct and add information about the alicorn. &amp;mdash;[[User:Claunia|Claunia]] 09:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC) Claunia - an alicorn is definitely the correct term to refer to a unicorn's horn. see Lore of the Unicorn, by Odell Shepard. in popular usage, the term for a winged unicorn is a &quot;pegicorn&quot;. (pegasus + unicorn) &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/76.235.158.0|76.235.158.0]] ([[User talk:76.235.158.0|talk]]) 16:03, 1 February 2009 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; But pegicorn is not correct, it's absurd word! The correct information for winged unicorn from [[Cantabria]]'s mythology is the second web (http://personales.mundivia.es/llera/mitologia.htm) and the first was a fanfic and has no mythological information (I'm the webmaster of the page) see this (http://tuscriaturas.blogia.com/2008/112301-introduccion-a-el-bestiario-del-hypogripho-dorado.php) where is mention that all in this page haven't got veridical equivalent in mythology. (i'm sorry about my english). I hope I have helped--[[User:Jakeukalane|Jakeukalane]] ([[User talk:Jakeukalane|talk]]) 18:39, 24 August 2009 (UTC) == Poison versus absinthe == An anonymous user changed what the alicorn cured from poison to absinthe. I have reverted it to the general &quot;poison&quot;, based on sources like &quot;http://www.izea.net/education/journal39.pdf&quot;. Of course, if someone has the original Greek written by Ctesias, that would be much better! [[User:Chipuni|Chip Unicorn]] 05:25, 13 December 2006 (UTC) ::this was subtle vandalism - see his other &quot;contributions&quot;. i had reported him to an anti-vandal specialist[[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] 15:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC) ==Can we delete the whole &quot;Prehistory&quot; section?== This whole section is unsubstantiated. *The Lascaux &quot;unicorn&quot; cleary has two horns. The use of ''Unicorn'' as a name to use when referring to the picture does ''not'' mean anyone thinks it's actually a unicorn. (Just like [[NASA]] scientists might refer to the [[Face on Mars]] as a descriptive term without believing it's an alien artifact.) *The reference from Richard Leaky is irrelevent since it clearly says that he ''doesn't'' think it represents a unicorn. *The use of &quot;unconfirmed reports&quot; to describe the next paragraph pretty much sums it up. If you read the reference you'll see that the unicorn pictures were made in recent times and thus can't depict prehistoric creatures. And while this was reported in the journal [[Nature (journal)|''Nature'']], they obviously had looser standards in 1872. *The last reference is a second-hand account that some random scientist in South America believes unicorns roamed the Amazon in the Late Pleistocene. None of these are any indication that prehistoric peoples believed in or drew pictures of unicorns. [[User:Tocharianne|Tocharianne]] 21:20, 23 December 2006 (UTC) *Sounds sensible to me [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] 21:44, 23 December 2006 (UTC) *I'll go along with that: there's no connection to the unicorn myth. --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 21:49, 23 December 2006 (UTC) Done. I'll try to find the Lascaux Unicorn a good home over at [[Lascaux]]. [[User:Tocharianne|Tocharianne]] 17:35, 26 December 2006 (UTC) Oops, forgot to mention: as part of a general cleanup I did of the article I removed the following &quot;In almost every folklore, there can never be more than one unicorn existing at any point in time.&quot; from the &quot;Unicorn in culture&quot; section. It should be put somewhere in the body of the article (if it's true), but I don't know where. [[User:Tocharianne|Tocharianne]] 17:37, 26 December 2006 (UTC) I think it is at the least an overstatement [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] 17:46, 26 December 2006 (UTC) ==Naive text== The following, which I've not deleted, is unworthy of Wikipedia: ''&quot;It is a common miconception that unicorns cannot fly. This however is false. It has been said that unicorns are able to achieve flight through their magical properties, that apparently stem from the animals horn. This is the reason they are sometimes confused with the similar animal Pegasus, however the difference is that Pegasus is supposedly stemmed from horses, while unicorns have been created from goats. &quot;''. What unicorns are and what they do, depends of what you're reading: is this from kiddy cartoon shows like ''[[Dragon Tales]]''?--[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 05:22, 19 January 2007 (UTC) :I've removed it for you. No idea where this information comes from, but it's the sort of thing that doesn't get my benefit of the doubt without a reference of some sort. [[User:Bryan Derksen|Bryan]] 05:46, 19 January 2007 (UTC) ==Split out &quot;Unicorns in popular culture&quot; section== I've nominated the Unicorn article to have pop culture &quot;sightings&quot; and references in their own article. If someone wants to add a bit about unicorns that they heard on [[Charmed]] or some cartoon show, they can play with the [[Unicorns in popular culture]] article. [[User:67.167.26.239|67.167.26.239]] 03:17, 22 January 2007 (UTC) Chris G. *'''support split''' since that section is getting huge. [[User:Tocharianne|Tocharianne]] 22:14, 24 January 2007 (UTC) No discussion needed. [[User:69.3.212.81|69.3.212.81]] 08:11, 24 February 2007 (UTC) :Well, deleting the whole section just encouraged someone to re-add it so I created the [[Unicorns in popular culture]] page. [[User:Tocharianne|Tocharianne]] 02:40, 17 April 2007 (UTC) == Vandalised state == The article is currently in a vandalised state, as was [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Unicorn&amp;oldid=109207196 this version a couple of days ago]. Should it be semi-protected? [[User:Andjam|Andjam]] 04:39, 24 February 2007 (UTC) == Uses of Unicorn's Horns == ''The unicorn horn was used mostly by the trolls as a stir stick. They believed the unicorn's magic...'' Is it just me, or is this worded a bit too factually, as if the existance of trolls, goblins, etc all existed. Further, calling it a `poor unicorn`, and `hideous method` other such phrases are not NPOV [[User:Tdinkar|Tdinkar]] 19:42, 28 March 2007 (UTC) The heading is wrong - by definition a Unicorn does not have HornS. [[User:203.129.60.195|203.129.60.195]] 12:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC) == charlie == we should mention how kewl charlie the unicorn is on youtube. &lt;small&gt;—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/74.170.44.145|74.170.44.145]] ([[User talk:74.170.44.145|talk]]) 00:33, 5 May 2007 (UTC).&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned --&gt; == A blessing of unicorns == Under 'Blessing', one reference is [quote] Blessing is the collective noun for a group of Unicorns [unquote] in English, I infer. Should that literary whimsy be included somewhere in this item? [[User:203.129.39.106|203.129.39.106]] 12:08, 27 May 2007 (UTC)JayD[[User:203.129.39.106|203.129.39.106]] 12:08, 27 May 2007 (UTC) :No, leave it out! Unicorns are (were?) solitary! [[User:Dbfirs|''&lt;font face=&quot;verdana&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;D&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#00ccff&quot;&gt;b&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#44ffcc&quot;&gt;f&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;66ff66&quot;&gt;i&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;44ee44&quot;&gt;r&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;44aa44&quot;&gt;s&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/font&gt;'']] 10:15, 22 August 2009 (UTC) == Marianna Mayer quote == ''Marianna Mayer has observed, &quot;The unicorn is the only fabulous beast that does not seem to have been conceived out of human fears...&quot;'' Is this even remotely truthful? What about mermaids and winged horses? [[User:Labcoat|Labcoat]] 22:36, 14 June 2007 (UTC) It's not true, nor is Mayer a credible or relevant source. She's simply children's book author. However, no one is willing to delete it because they are biased towards how she elevates the unicorn. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/173.70.245.205|173.70.245.205]] ([[User talk:173.70.245.205|talk]]) 17:50, 31 August 2009 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; It's also shameless advertisement from a non-expert/fantasy buff. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/173.70.4.32|173.70.4.32]] ([[User talk:173.70.4.32|talk]]) 13:38, 24 June 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; ==The Term Unicorn == I have always known that the term uni means two or more, but when it come to unicorn why does it mean one. Shouldn't it be called monocorn as mono means one and as &quot;unicorns&quot; have only one horn. It just seems more right to call it monocorn then unicorn. Someone else must agree with me. : &quot;Uni&quot; does mean one. It's Latin. &quot;Mono&quot; is Greek, but means the same thing. [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/uni- Link from Dictionary.com] - [[User:Shrensh|Shrensh]] 06:13, 8 July 2007 (UTC) How many wheels does YOUR unicycle have?! [[User:194.200.145.5|194.200.145.5]] 13:00, 23 July 2007 (UTC) :Actually the Unicorn &quot;reconstruction&quot; made from bones from the Einhornhoehle Scharzfeld _does_ have a [http://www.einhornhoehle.de/Forsch/unicorn2.htm wheel]. They made it from a bone that belonged to a mamoth. Nowadays we think that's funny, people back then must have believed it I guess. I can recommend to visit that cave btw., it's am interesting place, not fully explored yet, in a great landscape. (edit : added link to &quot;wheel&quot; reference) -- [[Special:Contributions/78.34.15.208|78.34.15.208]] ([[User talk:78.34.15.208|talk]]) 18:42, 31 August 2008 (UTC) == 2007 Unicorn SIGHTING! == For those that may be interested, a German couple holidaying in Switzerland not only claimed to have seen a Unicorn recently they have captured the beast on video! Perhaps this could be added to the article (if not already there sorry I haven't read through everything). Is it real? Perhaps...perhaps not but so far it hasn't been proven a fake! [[User:YourPTR!|YourPTR!]] ([[User talk:YourPTR!|talk]]) 19:52, 10 December 2007 (UTC) Here is the link! [http://www.thirdeyeconcept.com/forums/index.php?page=162 Unicorn captured on film!] [[User:YourPTR!|YourPTR!]] ([[User talk:YourPTR!|talk]]) 19:55, 10 December 2007 (UTC) ==Two images== :I placed two images in the lead as a test. I preferred the Tapestry, however I have moved it in respect to other views. Its really not a big deal. [[User:Modernist|Modernist]] ([[User talk:Modernist|talk]]) 03:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC) == In popular culture == What does everyone think of removing the 'in popular culture' section? In my opinion it is nothing but an [[WP:INFO|indiscriminate]] list of irrelevant [[WP:TRIVIA|trivia]] that will never be worked into the article. It will likely never be complete as unicorns are so pervasive in popular culture and really doesn't do anything to further the reader's understanding of what a unicorn actually is. Cheers, [[User:Faithlessthewonderboy|&lt;span style=&quot;color:blue&quot;&gt;'''faithless'''&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Faithlessthewonderboy|&lt;small&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;(&lt;sup&gt;'''speak'''&lt;/sup&gt;)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;]] 04:37, 16 April 2008 (UTC) :No opinions? In that case I can only assume that no one objects - I'll give it a few more days and, if there is no objection, I'll remove the section. Cheers, [[User:Faithlessthewonderboy|&lt;span style=&quot;color:blue&quot;&gt;'''faithless'''&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Faithlessthewonderboy|&lt;small&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;(&lt;sup&gt;'''speak'''&lt;/sup&gt;)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;]] 02:53, 21 April 2008 (UTC) ::I've moved the list here, in case this apparent trash heap is really a virtual [[Oxyrhynchus]]. [[User:Wetman|Wetman]] ([[User talk:Wetman|talk]]) 03:35, 21 April 2008 (UTC) * New Braunfels High School in New Braunfels, Texas is the only school in Texas that uses the Unicorn as a mascot. *[[Shel Silverstein]]'s poem, The Unicorn, describes how the unicorns' playful nature led to the species' extinction. *Unicorns are shown in the Disney film ''[[Fantasia (film)|Fantasia]]'', in the segment of [[Ludwig van Beethoven]]'s Sixth Symphony. *Unicorns are featured prominently in the 1985 film ''[[Legend (film)|Legend]]'', in which the creatures are hunted by the Lord of Darkness, the film's antagonist, in his attempt to obtain their magical [[alicorn]]s and submerge the world in eternal darkness. *In the episode entitled ''Sing For The Unicorn'' of [[The Legend of Zelda (TV series)|The Legend of Zelda]], a flying unicorn was stolen by [[Ganon]] from a Sheikah girl named ''Sing''. *Unicorns appear in the book (and film) ''[[Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone]]'' and in the book (and film) ''[[Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix]]''. *In the last [[The Chronicles of Narnia|Narnia]] book ''[[The Last Battle]]'', the king's best friend is a unicorn named Jewel. *In [[Haruki Murakami]]'s, ''Hard Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World'' unicorns and in particular unicorn skulls play an important role. *A singular unicorn is the subject of ''[[The Last Unicorn]]'' by [[Peter S. Beagle]] *In the movie ''[[Blade Runner]]'' (Director's Cut and Final Cut), the character, Deckard, has a dream involving a unicorn. At the very end of the movie the characters, Rachel and Deckard, are seen leaving his apartment. As they leave, Deckard finds an [[origami]] unicorn calling card left by Gaff and they depart towards an uncertain future together. *In the song ''The Unicorn'' performed by French electro producer [[Electrosexual]] and German singer [[Dorian E]] the unicorn is used as a metaphor for vulnerability and mystery. The [[theremin]] sound during the ending of the song embodies the tears of the dying animal. *A devious unicorn named Yunihiko is featured in the Japanese [[anime]] series [[Damekko Dōbutsu]]. *In [[She-Ra]], Princess Adora's horse, Spirit, turned into a flying unicorn (name becomes Swift Wind) during their transformation. *[[The Last Unicorn]] book and animated movie adaptation [[The Last Unicorn (film)|The Last Unicorn]]. *In the [[Disney]] story ''Trail of the Unicorn'' by [[Carl Barks]], a unicorn is to be captured for [[Uncle Scrooge]]'s zoo. *A little unicorn named Unico, who possess the power to grant wishes, is the star of the [[Anime]] series [[Unico]]. *The [[Pokemon]] [[Rapidash]] is based on a (fiery) unicorn. *In the 2005 film [[The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe]], [[Peter Pevensie]] rode a unicorn on the [[First Battle of Beruna]]. *In the game ''[[Viva Piñata]]'' the Chewnicorn is based on the unicorn. *In the game &quot;[[The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion]],&quot; a single unicorn is available for the character to ride or kill for its horn. *In the popular internet video, &quot;Charlie the Unicorn&quot; or &quot;Charlie goes to Candy Mountain&quot;, Charlie, portrayed as a &quot;normal&quot; unicorn is dragged by his two eccentric friends on a journey to &quot;candy mountain&quot;. Along the way they pass things such as [[liopleuridons]] and &quot;magical&quot; bridges, when they finally arrive at candy mountain, Charlie goes into a cave and is knocked out, upon awakening he realizes his [[kidney]] is gone. == Japanese Kirin? == I believe this should be changed to the more general &quot;East Asian Qilin.&quot; First of all, the link redirects to a page titled Qilin (not the alternative speilling Kirin), where it appropriately has a second that lists the name in other languages, including Japanese. Second of all, the origins of the Qilin are Chinese, not Japanese, but in any case various East Asian cultures recognize a variant of it and it would be incorrect to attribute it to a single culture. &lt;small&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Bloodredrosez|Bloodredrosez]] ([[User talk:Bloodredrosez|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Bloodredrosez|contribs]]) 07:49, 27 May 2008 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; == Actual unicorn in the news == http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/11/italy1 http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&amp;um=1&amp;tab=wn&amp;q=%22Gilberto+Tozzi%22+unicorn&amp;btnG=Search+News &lt;small&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/189.27.49.74|189.27.49.74]] ([[User talk:189.27.49.74|talk]]) 20:23, 11 June 2008 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Heh... Calling a young deer with a messed up set of antlers a &quot;unicorn&quot; is a bit of a stretch :) I'd be inclined to leave this out of the article. --[[User:Jaysweet|Jaysweet]] ([[User talk:Jaysweet|talk]]) 20:25, 11 June 2008 (UTC) I disagree. I believe that this article should be linked to and referenced along with the other possibilities for the origin of the unicorn. It is as plausible and legitimate as narwhals and deformed goats. Here's the MSN article I found: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25097986/from/ET/wid/18298287/&amp;GT1=43001[[User:Vitajex|Vitajex]] ([[User talk:Vitajex|talk]]) 20:42, 11 June 2008 (UTC) == Unicorn is in the Bible == The unicorn is mentioned 9 times in the Bible (Numbers 23:22; 24:8; Deuteronomy 33:17; Job 39:9, 10; Psalm 22:21; 29:6; 92:10; Isaiah 34:7). Most modern versions of the Bible identify the unicorn as a wild ox. However, the biblical descriptions do not fit a wild ox. The characteristics of the unicorn are as follows: The strength of the unicorn is a major theme of the Bible record about unicorns (Numbers 23:22; 24:8; Job 39:11) The unicorn is wild and cannot be tamed (Job 39:9-12) The unicorn is a dangerous animal (Psalm 22:21) The name unicorn means one-horned, although this could possibly refer to one prominent horn. The Bible is clearly not speaking of a wild ox. However, there is more than one possibility as to its identity. First, there is the possibility that the mythical tales of a horse with a prominent forward horn are not completely mythical. Perhaps the unicorn is yet to be discovered. This is not to say that the Bible is teaching a myth. It is not. And, as the biblical description demonstrates, the unicorn in the Bible is not the unicorn of mythology in any way. Second, this could be a rare species of rhinoceros that has only one horn. There is actually such a species known to zoologists today. Perhaps it was much more common at one time. Julius Caesar (according to Unger's Bible Dictionary) described a unicorn that was immense in size, of great strength and speed, ferocious, and untamable. This perfectly matches the biblical description of the unicorn. Third, the name, unicorn, could refer to the prominent horn of the more common rhinoceros. Deuteronomy 33:17 compares the horns of Joseph to the horns of unicorns. With them (the horns) he pushes the people together. They (the horns) are compared to the ten thousands of Ephraim and the thousands of Manasseh. Ephraim and Manasseh are the two tribes that come from the two sons of Joseph. The younger son (Ephraim) was given the greater blessing by Jacob (Genesis 48:17-20). This may be portrayed in Deuteronomy 33:17 by ascribing ten thousands to Ephraim but only thousands to Manasseh. How better to picture these two disproportionate tribes than with an animal that had one prominent horn (the unicorn) but also had a second much lesser horn. As further evidence, Psalm 92:10 refers to the horn of the unicorn as being exalted. This sounds like a forward pointing horn that naturally points upward—or is exalted--as the prominent horn of the rhinoceros. These passages are not absolute proof, but they strongly point to the rhinoceros as the animal that matches the unicorn in the Bible. At least until another unicorn is discovered, the rhinoceros is the most probable identity of the unicorn. The Bible description matches this animal very well. http://www.learnthebible.org/q-a-identity-of-the-unicorn.htm &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/204.99.19.150|204.99.19.150]] ([[User talk:204.99.19.150|talk]]) 18:18, 7 November 2008 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; ::The apology justifying &quot;unicorn&quot; as a translation chases its own tail: &quot;Learn-the-bible&quot; indeed. To clear the fog, begin with [http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=27&amp;letter=U ''Jewish Encyclopedia'', article &quot;Unicorn&quot;]. &quot;Unicorn&quot; was an attempt by the early 17th-century English translators to find an equivalent for ''re'em'', an unidentified animal in the original Hebrew text. Indeed &quot;the name unicorn means one-horned&quot;, but that is not a character of ''re'em'' specified in the Scripture. The self-confident assertion &quot;The Bible is clearly not speaking of a wild ox&quot; is unwarranted: compare [[aurochs]] to the nine appearances of ''re'em''. --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] ([[User talk:Wetman|talk]]) 18:39, 7 November 2008 (UTC) == Scottish?? statue of unicorn == Query the label attached to third image in Unicorn article, said to be 'An old Scottish statue of a unicorn'. Suspiciously the place in Scotland is unnamed. This is almost certainly an image of one of the splendid unicorns topping Bristol's Council House (C20th). Just google Bristol unicorn to get e.g. flickr.com/photos/80739320@N00/229041166/ The unicorn appears in Bristol's coat of arms. I suggest amending label to 'Statue of a unicorn on Bristol's Council House'. [[User:Joandarc|Joandarc]] ([[User talk:Joandarc|talk]]) 22:00, 4 May 2009 (UTC)Joandarc 4 May 2009 :I've rewritten the caption accordingly; the description on the image's page, [[:File:Wesh unicorn statue.jpg]], specifically states &quot;Unicorn on top of the Bristol City Council Buildings, UK.&quot; (Oddly, if the &quot;Wesh&quot; in the image's filename is a typo for &quot;Welsh,&quot; the uploader seems to have been mistaken about where Bristol is.) [[User:Deor|Deor]] ([[User talk:Deor|talk]]) 22:48, 4 May 2009 (UTC) ==Angel as unicorn== I remember reading about an angel in the shape of a unicorn, who was a friend of the archangel [[Michael (archangel)|Michael]]. He is reportedly of the same shape as the demon [[Amdusias]], except he is an angel and not a demon, even though some people may confuse the two. [[User:ADM|ADM]] ([[User talk:ADM|talk]]) 03:06, 5 August 2009 (UTC) ::No doubt they may. I'm sure I would. Do you really mean ''reading''?--[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] ([[User talk:Wetman|talk]]) 21:23, 24 August 2009 (UTC) ==Speculation== I've removed the following lines: :&quot;This unicorn found in [[Prato]], [[Tuscany]] is one of the most concrete living evidence of the legendary unicorn: notice that roe deer have also cloven hooves, like traditional representations. Maybe there were in the past similar morphological anomalies like a single-horn deer or a different animal that has been seen from a certain distance.&quot; This is clearly both speculation rather than encyclopaedic fact, and [[WP:OR|original research]]&lt;br&gt;[[User:Dom Kaos|~dom Kaos~]] ([[User talk:Dom Kaos|talk]]) 13:02, 21 August 2009 (UTC) == Bogus &quot;blessing of unicorns&quot; == Bogus &quot;blessing of unicorns&quot;: The following has been deleted from the text and moved here: :''Interestingly enough, the [[List of collective nouns by subject I-Z|collective term]] for a grouping of unicorns has been suggested as &quot;a blessing of unicorns&quot;.'' No, it hasn't, interestingly enough. Googling the phrase &quot;blessing of unicorns&quot; (within the quotation marks) brings up zero hits. At [[JSTOR]], which indexes a wide range of professional periodical literature, the phrase &quot;blessing of unicorns&quot; brings up zero hits. [[Unicorn]] is plagued with vandalism and scribbles: this is just someone's game. A &quot;blessing of unicorns&quot; will be removed from the list at [[List of collective nouns by subject I-Z]].--[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] ([[User talk:Wetman|talk]]) 17:13, 22 September 2009 (UTC) :My Google search for &quot;blessing of unicorns&quot; today turned up over 2,800 hits. Refining the search to remove mere references to lists of collective nouns (as well as references to an author of a work with the title &quot;Blessing of Unicorns&quot;) still left several hundred hits, including some from reputable sources (Irish Times, wired.com) using the phrase as common parlance (i.e., without further definition). Similar searches for &quot;glory of unicorns&quot; and &quot;sparkle of unicorns&quot; also returned results to a lesser extent. I propose adding a sentence or two to that effect, with refs if desired. As for location, I'd rather put it in the body of the article, a la [[rhinoceros]], but given the lack of an appropriate heading in this article, I'll put it in the intro. [[User:Dohn joe|Dohn joe]] ([[User talk:Dohn joe|talk]]) 00:39, 20 July 2010 (UTC) ::In the absence of an authoritative source showing that this isn't something that was just made up one day and spread about a bit, I think it should stay out of the article. Many of the &quot;terms of venery&quot; so beloved of list-makers are [http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/collectives.htm fanciful inventions that have never had any actual currency in real life], and I fear that &quot;blessing of unicorns&quot; is one of these. (The ''OED'', for example, knows nothing of such a use of ''blessing''.) And as for &quot;sparkle of unicorns&quot;—I mean, really! None of this belongs in the article, and most certainly not in the lead. [[User:Deor|Deor]] ([[User talk:Deor|talk]]) 01:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC) :::Once more, &quot;At [[JSTOR]], which indexes a wide range of professional periodical literature, the phrase 'blessing of unicorns' brings up zero hits.&quot; Deor is correct. --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] ([[User talk:Wetman|talk]]) 05:46, 20 July 2010 (UTC) ::::Here are the cites I found for &quot;blessing of unicorns&quot;, from [http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2008/09/should-we-trash/ wired.com]; and the [http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2009/0919/1224254847644.html Irish Times]. Seems like these are non-list usages by non-unicorn enthusiasts in mainstream media. I agree that lots of terms of venery are silly, but if &quot;crash&quot; sits on the [[rhinoceros]] page, and &quot;exaltation&quot; makes it to the [[skylark]] page, why not &quot;blessing&quot; here? [[User:Dohn joe|Dohn joe]] ([[User talk:Dohn joe|talk]]) 18:44, 20 July 2010 (UTC) == Could someone please update the page (as it has been locked) with the following: (thanks in advance) == '''&quot;A Eunuch should not be confused with a Unicorn. A Unicorn is a noble beast with a fully functioning set of male genitalia, and an additional and permanently erected male appendage attached to the forehead.&quot;''' &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/82.45.214.76|82.45.214.76]] ([[User talk:82.45.214.76|talk]]) 10:53, 10 October 2009 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; == The Chosen One == Unicorns can kill you if you charge at them. Only pet them if you are the chosen one. If you are the chosen one they will come around you and begin to talk to you. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/97.106.124.234|97.106.124.234]] ([[User talk:97.106.124.234|talk]]) 23:49, 20 October 2009 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; == Reference tag == check it over but it looks well-referenced to me.--[[User:Hunter of laughing female hyenas|Hunter of laughing female hyenas]] ([[User talk:Hunter of laughing female hyenas|talk]]) 21:52, 21 January 2010 (UTC) == Dubious == I've tagged a paragraph as dubious which seems to imply there aren't rhinos in India, and that African Rhinos have a single horn. When according to [[rhinoceros]], both African species and the Sumatran Rhinoceros have two horns, while the Indian and Javan Rhinoceros have a single horn. [[User:PhilKnight|PhilKnight]] ([[User talk:PhilKnight|talk]]) 20:51, 7 March 2010 (UTC) :I've removed the statement. [[User:PhilKnight|PhilKnight]] ([[User talk:PhilKnight|talk]]) 22:01, 14 March 2010 (UTC) == Artwork and Rainbows == Is there any details on the origins of the detailed Unicorn artwork there is? These usually contain rainbows. Also any information on why Unicorns are associated with rainbows? &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/24.103.173.3|24.103.173.3]] ([[User talk:24.103.173.3|talk]]) 05:30, 3 April 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; ==Pagan unicorns?== In the '''Medieval Unicorns''' section, two references are made to &quot;pagan symbolism,&quot; but no examples of pagan symbolism are given. If the the statement in the '''Unicorns in antiquity''' section is correct, and there are no examples of unicorns in Greek or any other European mythology, then the reason that no examples are given is that there are no examples to be found. I therefore propose dropping or altering the references to &quot;pagan&quot; unicorns. [[User:Rwflammang|Rwflammang]] ([[User talk:Rwflammang|talk]]) 01:27, 21 April 2010 (UTC) ==The Extinct Possibility - Avoiding A Priori Assertions == In its first sentence, the current article jumps to an a priori, presuppositional assertion that the unicorn is mythological and cites a modern author of children's books to support its assertion. The article then continues to cite abundant historical evidence for the existence of the unicorn while providing minimal support for its mythological context. It cites Leonardo DaVinci, a scientist, and cultural evidence from Europe and India for the existence of the unicorn. The article does not well support its myth assertion. The article acknowledges that the unicorn was not part of Greek mythology. The article does not provide an alternative mythological foundation nor describe what the relevant myths are and might represent. Large animals easily become extinct before smaller animals. Larger animals are the target of hunters. The rhinoceros and elephant are endangered today because its horns are sought after. The unicorn and its horn would certainly be sought after it were alive today and would easily become extinct again if it were found alive and unprotected. This article needs a new opening paragraph that recognizes the historical evidence for the existence of the unicorn and that covers the folklore and any mythological aspects of the unicorn more accurately.Itohacs 10:04, 2 July 2010 (UTC) &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Itohacs|Itohacs]] ([[User talk:Itohacs|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Itohacs|contribs]]) &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Are there ''any'' respected biologists (or related experts) who seriously consider that the unicorn may be an extinct species? Have you any sources in mind for this claim? (I see nothing significant in the article as it stands. Have I missed something?) [[User:Phiwum|Phiwum]] ([[User talk:Phiwum|talk]]) 14:22, 28 July 2010 (UTC) == Edit request from 69.245.200.142, 20 September 2010 == {{tlx|edit semi-protected}} &lt;!-- Begin request --&gt; Noah Webster's 1828 dictionary's definition of &quot;unicorn&quot; is: &quot;1. an animal with one horn; the monoceros. this name is often applied to the rhinoceros.&quot; The definition of rhinoceros from Noah Webster's 1828 dictionary is: &quot;A genus of quadrupeds of two species, one of which, the unicorn, as a single horn growing almost erect from the nose. This animal when full grown, is said to be 12 feet in length. There is another species with two horns, the bicornis. They are natives of Asia and Africa.&quot; According to Noah Webster, back in the early 1800's, it was understood that there were 2 species of the rhinoceros. The one-horned species was called unicorn, and the two-horned species was called bicornis. As a matter of fact, even today the scientific name of the Asian One-Horned Rhinoceros is Rhinoceros Unicornis. And Diceros Bicornis is the scientific name of a two-horned rhinoceros called the Black rhinoceros. The King James version of the bible uses the word unicorn 9 times in 5 different books. However, the Latin Vulgate uses 5 different words: 1. rinoceros 2. rinocerotis 3. rinocerota 4. unicornium 5 unicornis These 5 latin words are what's being used when the King James version of the Bible says &quot;Unicorn.&quot; There is a book for sale today called &quot;The Return of the Unicorns: The Natural History and Conservation of the Greater One-horned Rhinoceros&quot; This book was published in 2003 by a scientist named Eric Deinerstein. If can be bought on Amazon.com. There is an extinct species of a giant One-Horned rhinoceros scientists today refer to as &quot;The Giant Unicorn&quot; (Elasmotherium Sibiricum). Creation Scientists from Answers In Genesis and the Creation Museum believe this creature might be the unicorn that is being referred to in the Bible. Although Deut. 33:17 in the King James version of the Bible says unicorns (plural), the Hebrew word &quot;Re-em&quot; in this verse is actually in it's singular form, whereas the Hebrew word for horns is in it's plural form, making it seem that this is talking about a singular animal with plural horns. This would make sense, since the Latin Vulgate translates it in this verse as &quot;rinocerotis&quot; instead of &quot;unicornis.&quot; The Black Rhinoceros today lives in Ethiopia. In the book of Numbers, it says that Moses married an Ethiopian woman. According to the historian Philo, Moses married this woman when he went to Ethiopia. If Moses saw this two-horned rhinoceros in Ethiopia when he was there, then it could be that this was the animal that he was referring to in Deuteronomy 33:17, when he compares the two horns of the &quot;rhinocerotis&quot; to the two sons of Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh. Since Ephraim was a larger tribe than Manasseh, just like Jacob had prophesied in Genesis 48, the two-horned rhinoceros would be an appropriate picture, since it has a larger horn and a smaller horn. Ephraim would represent the larger horn, and Manasseh would represent the smaller horn. it could be that Moses was referring to the Black Rhinoceros, diceros bicornis. If this is the case, then the King James version of the Bible is mistaken in this particular verse when it translates it as &quot;unicorn.&quot; &lt;!-- End request --&gt; [[Special:Contributions/69.245.200.142|69.245.200.142]] ([[User talk:69.245.200.142|talk]]) 15:51, 20 September 2010 (UTC) :{{ESp|?}} It's good to see you have done some research, but I was not able to grasp what you wanted changed. Thanks, &lt;b&gt;[[User:Stickee|Stickee]] &lt;small&gt;[[User_talk:Stickee|(talk)]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/b&gt; 02:13, 21 September 2010 (UTC) ===Latin words for unicorn in the Bible=== Actually, there are only two Latin words for unicorn used in the Bible; they are ''unicornis'' and ''rhinoceros''. ''Unicornis'' is a regular third declension adjective used as a substantive. The form ''unicornium'' is just the genitive plural of ''unicornis''. ''Rhinoceros'' is an irregular third person masculine noun; ''rhinocerotis'' is its genitive and ''rhinocerota'' is its irregular accusative. * ''unicornis'', nominative singular, &quot;the one-horned [one]&quot; ** ''unicornium'', genitive plural, &quot;of the one-horned [ones]&quot; * ''rhinoceros'', nominative singular, &quot;the rhino&quot; (subject) ** ''rhinocerotis'', genitive singular, &quot;of the rhino&quot; ** ''rhinocerota'', accusative singular (irregular), &quot;the rhino&quot; (object) [[User:Rwflammang|Rwflammang]] ([[User talk:Rwflammang|talk]]) 15:50, 21 September 2010 (UTC) == Wings == Unicorns are sometimes depicted with wings. Is there a specific origin to this or are people merging a unicorn with a [[pegasus]]? --[[User:Bequw|Bequw]] ([[User talk:Bequw|talk]]) 21:31, 31 October 2010 (UTC) == Edit request from Flutation, 5 November 2010 == {{tlx|edit semi-protected}} &lt;!-- Begin request --&gt; &lt;!-- End request --&gt; [[User:Flutation|Flutation]] ([[User talk:Flutation|talk]]) 00:05, 5 November 2010 (UTC) When unicorns die, it is a wellknown fact and common knowledge around the world that they turn into magnets. :{{notdone}} - {{cn}}. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 00:07, 5 November 2010 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gulf_Cooperation_Council&diff=394887084</id> <title>Gulf Cooperation Council</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gulf_Cooperation_Council&diff=394887084"/> <updated>2010-11-04T23:58:03Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Reverted good faith edits by 86.36.16.5 (talk); I share your pain, but &quot;Persian Gulf&quot; is the commonly used term globally. (TW) <hr /> <div>{{Infobox Geopolitical organization |native_name = {{lang|ar|مجلس التعاون لدول الخليج '''العربية'''}} |name = Cooperation Council for the Arab States of the Gulf (CCASG) |linking_name = |image_flag = GCC Flag.svg |symbol_type = Logo |image_symbol = GCC Logo.svg |image_map = GCC map.png |map_caption = Map indicating CCASG members |org_type = [[Trade bloc]] |membership = [[Arab states of the Persian Gulf]] (6) |admin_center_type = &lt;!-- (e.g. &quot;Administrative center&quot; (default))--&gt; |admin_center = &lt;!-- (Location/s of administrative center/s) --&gt; |languages_type = [[Official language]]s |languages = [[Arabic language|Arabic]] |headquarters = [[Riyadh]], [[Saudi Arabia]] |leader_title1 = Secretary-General |leader_name1 = {{flagicon | Qatar}} Abdul-Rahman bin Hamad al-Attiyah {{Citation needed|date=September 2010}} | leader_title2 = [[Presidency| Supreme Council Presidency]] | leader_name2 = {{flagicon | United Arab Emirates}} [[United Arab Emirates]] {{Citation needed|date=September 2010}} |established_event1 = As the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) |established_date1 = &lt;br/&gt;May 25, 1981 |official_website = http://www.gcc-sg.org/ |area_rank = |area_magnitude = |area_km2 = 2672700 |area_sq_mi = |percent_water = |population_estimate = 40,338,196&lt;ref&gt;[[Talk:Arabian Peninsula#the Population]] wikipedia. Retrieved 2008.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;!--Whither this figure?--&gt; |population_estimate_rank = |population_estimate_year = |population_density_km2 = |population_density_sq_mi = |population_density_rank = |GDP_PPP = |GDP_PPP_rank = |GDP_PPP_year = |GDP_PPP_per_capita = |GDP_PPP_per_capita_rank = |GDP_nominal = $1,103,235 million |GDP_nominal_rank = |GDP_nominal_year = |GDP_nominal_per_capita = $22,083 |GDP_nominal_per_capita_rank = |currency = see footnote 1 |time_zone = |utc_offset = |footnote1 = Common currency planned for introduction in 2010.&lt;br/&gt;Present currencies ([[ISO 4217]] codes in brackets):&lt;br/&gt;[[Bahraini dinar]]&amp;nbsp;(BHD)&amp;nbsp;• [[Kuwaiti dinar]]&amp;nbsp;(KWD)&amp;nbsp;• [[Omani rial]]&amp;nbsp;(OMR)&amp;nbsp;• [[Qatari riyal]]&amp;nbsp;(QAR)&amp;nbsp;• [[Saudi riyal]]&amp;nbsp;(SAR)&amp;nbsp;• [[United Arab Emirates dirham|UAE dirham]]&amp;nbsp;(AED) }} The '''Cooperation Council for the Arab States of the Gulf''' ('''CCASG'''; {{lang-ar|مجلس التعاون لدول الخليج العربية}}), also known as the '''Gulf Cooperation Council''' ('''GCC''';&amp;nbsp;مجلس التعاون الخليجي), is a political and economic union involving the six Arab states of the [[Persian Gulf]] with many economic and social objectives. ==Members== {{flag|Bahrain}}&lt;ref&gt;http://www.gccsg.org/eng/index.php?action=GCC&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;br /&gt; {{flag|Kuwait}}&lt;ref&gt;http://www.gccsg.org/eng/index.php?action=GCC&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;br /&gt; {{flag|Oman}}&lt;ref&gt;http://www.gccsg.org/eng/index.php?action=GCC&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;br /&gt; {{flag|Qatar}}&lt;ref&gt;http://www.gccsg.org/eng/index.php?action=GCC&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;br /&gt; {{flag|Saudi Arabia}}&lt;ref&gt;http://www.gccsg.org/eng/index.php?action=GCC&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;br /&gt; {{flag|United Arab Emirates}}&lt;ref&gt;http://www.gccsg.org/eng/index.php?action=GCC&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;br /&gt; ==History== Created on May 25, 1981, the {{convert|630|e6acre|km2|adj=on}} Council comprises the [[Persian Gulf]] states of [[Bahrain]], [[Kuwait]], [[Oman]], [[Qatar]], [[Saudi Arabia]] and the [[United Arab Emirates]]. The unified economic agreement between the countries of the Gulf Cooperation Council was signed on November 11, 1981 in [[Riyadh]]. These countries are often referred to as '''The GCC States'''. Not all of the countries neighboring the [[Persian Gulf]] are members of the council. [[Iran]] and [[Iraq]] are currently excluded although both nations have a coastline on the Persian Gulf. This is because the union is mostly regional, rather than based on geography. The associate membership of Iraq in certain GCC-related institutions was discontinued after the invasion of Kuwait.&lt;ref&gt;see [http://www.gccsg.org/eng/index.php?action=Sec-Show&amp;ID=52&amp;W2SID=22406 GCC statement on Media Cooperation]&lt;/ref&gt; The GCC States have announced that they support the Document of [http://www.iraqcompact.org/ The International Compact with Iraq] that was adopted at [[Sharm El-Sheikh]] on 4-5 May 2007. It calls for regional economic integration with the neighboring states but there is no prospect of Iraqi accession to the GCC.&lt;ref&gt;see [http://www.gccsg.org/eng/index.php?action=Sec-Show&amp;ID=48&amp;W2SID=22406 Political Affairs]&lt;/ref&gt; [[Yemen]] is ({{As of|2007|alt=currently}}) in negotiations for GCC membership, and hopes to join by 2016.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=http://yementimes.com/article.shtml?i=905&amp;p=local&amp;a=7 |title=Yemen hopeful to join GCC in 2016 |work=[[Yemen Times]] |date=December 19, 2006 |accessdate=2007-04-07}}&lt;/ref&gt; The GCC has already approved Yemen's accession to the GCC Standardization Authority, Gulf Organization for Industrial Consultancy, GCC Auditing and Accounting Authority, Gulf Radio and TV Authority, The GCC Council of Health Ministers, The GCC Education and Training Bureau, The GCC Council of Labor &amp; and Social Affairs Ministers, and The [[Gulf Cup of Nations|Gulf Cup Football Tournament]]. The Council issued directives that all the necessary legal measures be taken so that Yemen would have the same rights and obligations of GCC member states in those institutions.&lt;ref&gt;see [http://www.gccsg.org/eng/index.php?action=Sec-Show&amp;ID=124&amp;W2SID=22427 The Closing Statement of the Twenty Second Session] [http://www.gccsg.org/eng/index.php?action=Sec-Show&amp;ID=290&amp;W2SID=22402 GCC The Final Communiqué of The 29th Session]&lt;/ref&gt; There is, however, some resistance to full Yemeni membership amongst most GCC states, due to the country's poverty, different system of government, and the legality of [[khat|qat]] in the country. The GCC Patent Office was approved in 1992 and established soon after.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=http://www.gcc-sg.org/eng/index.php?action=Sec-Show&amp;ID=62&amp;W2SID=3439 |title=GCC Patent Office page of the GCC website |accessdate=2008-02-12}}&lt;/ref&gt; A GCC common market was launched on January 1, 2008.&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.arabtimesonline.com/kuwaitnews/pagesdetails.asp?nid=10186&amp;ccid=12 Arab Times :: GCC states to launch joint market today&lt;!-- Bot generated title --&gt;]&lt;/ref&gt; The common market grants national treatment to all GCC firms and citizens in any other GCC country, and in doing so removes all barriers to cross country investment and services trade. A customs union was declared in 2003, but practical implementation has lagged behind. Indeed, shortly afterwards, Bahrain concluded a separate Free Trade Agreement with the [[USA]], in effect cutting through the GCC's agreement, and causing much friction. The GCC members and [[Yemen]] are also members of the [[Council of Arab Economic Unity#Greater Arab Free Trade Area|Greater Arab Free Trade Area]] (GAFTA). However, this is unlikely to significantly affect the agenda of the GCC as it has a more aggressive timetable than GAFTA and is seeking greater integration. Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Qatar on December 15, 2009 announced the creation of a Monetary Council, a step toward establishing a shared [[currency]]. The board of the council, which will set a timetable for establishing a joint central bank and choose a currency regime, will meet for the first time on March 30, 2010. Kuwaiti Foreign Minister Sheikh Mohammed Sabah al-Salem al- Sabah said on December 8, 2009 that a single currency may take up to 10 years to establish. The original target was in 2010. Oman and the UAE later announced their withdrawal of the proposed currency until further notice. ==Main objectives== Among the stated objectives are: *formulating similar regulations in various fields such as economy, finance, trade, customs, tourism, legislation, and administration; *fostering scientific and technical progress in industry, mining, agriculture, water and animal resources; *establishing scientific research centers; *setting up joint ventures; *unified military presence The [[Peninsula Shield]] *encouraging cooperation of the private sector; *strengthening ties between their peoples; and *establishing a common currency by 2010;&lt;ref name=&quot;GCC Monetary Union - IIE&quot;&gt;{{Cite book | first = Mohsin S. | last = Khan | author-link = http://www.imf.org/external/np/bio/eng/mk.htm | title = The GCC Monetary Union: Choice of Exchange Rate Regime | publisher = Peterson Institute for International Economics | location = Washington DC, USA | date = April 2009 | url = http://www.iie.com/publications/wp/wp09-1.pdf | accessdate = 2009-05-11 | format = PDF }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Regional Monetary Integration - ECB&quot;&gt;{{Cite book | first = Michael | last = Sturm | author-link = http://www.ecb.int/pub/scientific/ops/author/html/author334.en.html | first2 = Nikolaus | last2 = Siegfried | author2-link = http://www.ecb.int/pub/scientific/ops/author/html/author638.en.html | title = Regional Monetary Integration in the Member States of the Gulf Cooperation Council | publisher = European Central Bank | location = Frankfurt am Main, Germany | date = June 2005 | url = http://www.ecb.int/pub/pdf/scpops/ecbocp31.pdf | id = Occasional Paper Series, No. 31 | issn = 1725-6534 | accessdate = 2009-05-11 | format = PDF }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;GCC Monetary Union - IMF&quot;&gt;{{Cite book | first = George T. | last = Abed | author-link = http://imf.org/external/np/bio/eng/ga.htm | first2 = S. Nuri | last2 = Erbas | author2-link = http://www.linkedin.com/pub/dir/s.%20nuri/erbas | first3 = Behrouz | last3 = Guerami | author3-link = | title = The GCC Monetary Union: Some Considerations for the Exchange Rate Regime | publisher = International Monetary Fund (IMF) | location = Washington DC, USA | date = April 1, 2003 | url = http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/cat/longres.cfm?sk=16173.0 | id = Working Paper No. 03/66 | issn = 1934-7073 | accessdate = 2009-05-11 | format = PDF }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.gulfcurrency.org]&lt;/ref&gt; :However, [[Oman]] had announced in December 2006 it will not be able to meet the target date and the [[UAE]] have announced their withdrawal from the monetary union project in May 2009. This happened immediately after it was announced that the central bank for the monetary union would be located in [[Riyadh]] and not in the [[UAE]]. The name [[Khaleeji (currency)|Khaleeji]] has been proposed as a name for this currency.&lt;!---- THIS SENTENCE DOESN'T STAND UP, THERE ARE 3 AFRICAN UNIONS WITH LARGER POPULATIONS “If realised, the GCC monetary union would be the second most important supranational monetary union in the world in terms of GDP and population, after the euro area.”&lt;ref name=&quot;Regional Monetary Integration - ECB&quot; /&gt;---&gt; This area has some of the fastest growing economies in the world, mostly due to a boom in [[oil]] and [[natural gas]] revenues coupled with a building and investment boom backed by decades of saved [[petroleum]] revenues. In an effort to build a tax base and economic foundation before the reserves run out, the UAE's investment arms, including Abu Dhabi Investment Authority, retain over $900 billion in assets. Other regional funds also have several hundred billion dollars. The region is also an emerging hotspot for events, including the [[2006 Asian Games]] in [[Doha]], [[Qatar]]. Doha also submitted an application for the [[Doha 2016 Olympic bid|2016 Summer Olympic Games]], although this bid was unsuccessful having recently been dropped from the list of candidate cities. In 2006, its GDP (nominal) was $717.8 billion (IMF April 2007), led by spectacular growth in [[United Arab Emirates]] and [[Qatar]].&lt;ref&gt; See references in [[List of countries by GDP (nominal)]]&lt;/ref&gt;. In 2007, its GDP (nominal) was $1,022.62 billion (IMF April 2008). IMF predicts its GDP to reach $1,112.076 billion at end of 2008 and $1,210.112 billion at end of 2009. [[Qatar]] is expected to overtake top ranked [[Luxembourg]] in GDP (nominal) per capita next year for the world's top spot. See [[List of countries by GDP (nominal) per capita]]. Recently, the leaders of the Council have come under fire for doing too little to combat the economic downturn. While GCC countries were among the first hit - and the first to respond to the crisis - their programs have been prone to disparities, and they have placed their region on the brink of even deeper crises. Recovery plans have been criticized for [[crowding out (economics)|crowding out]] the private sector, failing to set clear priorities for growth, failing to restore weak consumer and investor confidence, and undermining long-term stability.&lt;ref&gt;Arab Countries Stumble in the Face of Growing Economic Crisis, http://carnegieendowment.org/publications/index.cfm?fa=view&amp;id=23120&amp;prog=zgp&amp;proj=zie,zme&lt;/ref&gt; ==Secretaries-General== * [[Abdullah Bishara]]&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=426 |title=Clip No. 426: excerpts from an interview with the former Secretary-General of the Gulf Cooperation Council Abdallah Bishara |work=TV Monitor Project, [[Middle East Media Research Institute|MEMRI]] |date=December 12, 2004 |accessdate= 2007-04-07}} {{Dead link|date=September 2010|bot=H3llBot}}&lt;/ref&gt;, Kuwait, 26 May 1981 — April 1993 * [[Fahim bin Sultan al-Qasimi]], United Arab Emirates, April 1993 — April 1996 * [[Jamil ibn Ibrahim al-Hujailan]], Saudi Arabia, April 1996 — 31 March 2002 * [[Abdul Rahman ibn Hamad al-Attiyah]], Qatar, 1 April 2002 to date ==Logo== The [[logo]] of the GCC consists of two concentric [[circle]]s. On the upper part of the larger circle, the [[Bismillah]] phrase is written in [[Arabic]]. On the lower part of that circle, the Council's full name is written in Arabic. The inner circle contains an embossed hexagonal shape representing the Council's six member countries. The inside of the hexagon is filled by a map encompassing the [[Arabian Peninsula]], on which the areas of the member countries are colored brown. No borders are shown. ==See also== * [[Peninsula Shield]] * [[Arabian Gulf Rugby Football Union]], which administer rugby in this area * [[Arab states of the Persian Gulf]] * [[Iran-Arab relations]] * [[US - Middle East Free Trade Area]] (US-MEFTA) * [[Euro-Mediterranean free trade area]] (EU-MEFTA) * [[Council of Arab Economic Unity]] (CAEU) * [[Khaleeji (currency)]] - A proposed currency for the Cooperation Council for the Arab States of the Gulf * [[Gulf Railway]] * [[Middle East economic integration]] ==References== {{Reflist}} ==External links== *[http://www.gcc-sg.org/eng/ The Cooperation Council for the Arab States of the Gulf - Secretariat General] {{GCC|state=uncollapsed}} {{Trade}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Cooperation Council For The Arab States Of The Gulf}} &lt;!--Categories--&gt; [[Category:International organizations of Asia]] [[Category:International organizations of the Middle East]] [[Category:Government-related organizations]] [[Category:Persian Gulf countries]] [[Category:International economic organizations]] [[Category:Intellectual property organizations]] [[Category:Trade blocs]] [[Category:Middle East]] [[Category:Organizations established in 1981]] [[Category:Proposed currencies]] [[Category:Monetary unions]] [[Category:Supranational unions]] [[Category:Continental unions]] &lt;!--Other languages--&gt; [[ar:مجلس التعاون لدول الخليج العربية]] [[az:Fars körfəzi ölkələrinin əməkdaşlıq şurası]] [[cs:Rada pro spolupráci arabských států v Zálivu]] [[de:Golf-Kooperationsrat]] [[es:Consejo de Cooperación para los Estados Árabes del Golfo Pérsico]] [[eo:Golfa Koopera Konsilo]] [[fa:شورای همکاری خلیج فارس]] [[fr:Conseil de coopération du Golfe]] [[ko:페르시아 만 아랍 국가 협력 회의]] [[id:Dewan Kerjasama untuk Negara Arab di Teluk]] [[is:Persaflóasamstarfsráðið]] [[it:Consiglio di Cooperazione del Golfo]] [[he:מועצת שיתוף הפעולה של מדינות המפרץ]] [[lt:Persijos įlankos arabų šalių bendradarbiavimo taryba]] [[lij:GCC]] [[hu:Öböl Menti Együttműködési Tanács (GCC)]] [[ms:Majlis Kerjasama Negara-negara Arab Teluk]] [[nl:Cooperation Council for the Arab States of the Gulf]] [[ja:湾岸協力会議]] [[no:Golfrådet]] [[pl:Rada Współpracy Zatoki Perskiej]] [[pt:Conselho de Cooperação do Golfo]] [[ru:Совет сотрудничества арабских государств Персидского залива]] [[fi:Persianlahden arabimaiden yhteistyöneuvosto]] [[sv:Gulf Cooperation Council]] [[tr:Körfez Arap Ülkelerinin İşbirliği Konseyi]] [[zh:海湾阿拉伯国家合作委员会]]</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Portal:Current_events/2010_November_1&diff=394692337</id> <title>Portal:Current events/2010 November 1</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Portal:Current_events/2010_November_1&diff=394692337"/> <updated>2010-11-04T00:27:50Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Reverted to revision 394506349 by Candlewicke; rvv. (TW) <hr /> <div>{{Current events header|2010|11|1}} &lt;!-- All news items below this line --&gt; ;Armed conflicts and attacks *Two [[Afghan]] women charity workers shot dead. They were travelling between [[Lashkar Gah]] and [[Garmser]], a volatile area in the [[Helmand River]] valley, when they were attacked. [http://news.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/world/04-afghan-women-shot-dead-qs-01 (dawn)] *[[Battle of Mogadishu (2010)]]: **At least 12 people are killed in fighting in [[Mogadishu]], [[Somalia]], between pro-government forces, [[African Union]] troops and the [[Islamist]] militant [[al-Shabaab]] group. [http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5g7Slk7NocIlUUFzIZklnZeJ6r1iw?docId=CNG.809df977b92d0cf07c212de2205b6b72.e31 (AFP)] [http://www.ennaharonline.com/en/international/5092.html (Ennahar)] *Photographs, diaries and footage of [[Gyles Mackrell]]'s rescue of refugees from the [[Japanese occupation of Burma|Japanese invasion of Burma]] in [[World War II]] are made avaliable. [http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/wwii-elephant-man-rescue-revealed-on-film-2122153.html (''The Independent'')] *The rebel [[Kurdistan Workers' Party]] (PKK) in [[Turkey]] announces it will extend a truce until elections next year. [http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iaGvo6BbyQPjdH5xnk8b2Q6PS0lA?docId=CNG.af5a1cb25e03ecc70924e5a7787c7aa3.611 (AFP)] *58 hostage-takers, hostages and police officers are killed and 67 people wounded when [[Iraq]]i forces [[October 2010 Baghdad church attack|storm a Baghdad church]] to free dozens of hostages. [http://www.deccanchronicle.com/international/58-killed-botched-bid-free-iraq-church-hostages-658 (Deccan Chronicle)][http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/37-hostages-killed-in-Baghdad-church-drama-Official/articleshow/6849606.cms (''Times of India'')] [http://news.oneindia.in/2010/11/01/iraqi-hostages-freed-from-church-19-killed.html (One India)] [http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report_iraqi-forces-free-hostages-from-church-19-killed_1460477-all (DNA)] [http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle09.asp?xfile=data/middleeast/2010/November/middleeast_November16.xml&amp;section=middleeast (Khaleej Times)] *Four militants, including two from [[Lashkar-e-Toiba]] (LET), are killed in separate gunbattles with security forces in [[Kupwara]] and [[Kulgam]] districts of [[Kashmir Valley]], [[India]]. [http://www.ptinews.com/news/1080754_4-militants-killed-in-gunbattles-in-Kashmir (PTI)] [http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2010-11/01/c_13585989.htm (Xinhua)] *A [[United States]] [[drone aircraft|drone]] [[drone attacks in Pakistan|attack]] kills six people in northwest [[Pakistan]]. [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101101/ap_on_re_as/as_pakistan (AP via Yahoo! News)] [http://news.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/14-four-killed-in-us-drone-strike-in-north-waziristan-zj-01 (Dawn)] *A suicide bomber killed two [[Pakistan]]i policemen and wounded 10 others as security forces tried to stop him from walking into their local headquarters in [[Swabi]], 100 kilometres northwest of [[Islamabad]]. [http://news.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/14-militants-attack-police-in-swabi-one-policman-killed-zj-04 (Dawn)] ;Arts and culture *A [[Turkish]] film wins the Best Documentary award at the Thanet International Film Festival in the [[United Kingdom]]. [http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=1029214729191-2010-11-01 (Hurriyet Daily)] *The [[People's Republic of China]] begins its first [[census]] in ten years. [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11663349 (BBC)] [http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2010-11/01/content_11481906.htm (''China Daily'')] ;Business and economy *[[India]], [[China]] helped boost Asian shares outside [[Japan]] by 1.7%. [http://www.livemint.com/2010/11/01110321/India-China-lead-way-as-Asia.html?h=E (Livemint)] *[[Ambac Financial Group]] announces that it may have to declare bankruptcy, though it is still in talks with its senior [[bondholders]] about a consensual rescheduling of its debts. Before the 2008 financial crisis, Ambac was one of the two dominant [[bond insurance]] companies. [http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN0112938520101101 (Reuters)] *An examiner appointed by the [[Delaware]] [[Bankruptcy]] court said that there is no value left in the estate of defunct bank [[Washington Mutual]] for the stockholders to receive anything. [http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6A050B20101101 (Reuters)] ;Disasters *At least [[2010 West Bengal ferry sinking|50 people drown after a ferry-boat capsizes]] on the [[Muri Ganga River]] in [[West Bengal]], [[India]]. [http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/death-toll-rises-to-50-in-indian-ferry-sin-20101102-17am6.html (''Sydney Morning Herald'')] *16 people lost their lives in separate incidents due to rainfall in various parts of the district of [[India]] in [[Nakapalli]], [[Elamanchili]], [[Payakaraopeta]], [[Vizag]], [[Rambilli]] and in other parts of [[Andhra Pradesh]]. [http://www.ptinews.com/news/1083924_16-killed-in-rain-related-incidents-in-AP (PTI)] [http://www.deccanchronicle.com/visakhapatnam/5-killed-500-houses-submerged-vizag-778 (Deccan Chronicle)] *A large crater appeared in the early hours in the central German town of [[Schmalkalden]]. [http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2010-11/02/c_13586471_3.htm (Xinhua)] ;International relations *Disputed islands: **The [[President of Russia]] [[Dmitry Medvedev]] visits [[Kunashiri]], one of the southern [[Kuril Islands]] that are the subject of the [[Kuril Islands dispute]] between [[Russia]] and [[Japan]]. [http://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFTRE6A00AT20101101 (Reuters)] [http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/11/01/russia.kuril.islands/index.html?eref=edition (CNN)] **The [[Prime Minister of Japan]] [[Naoto Kan]] describes Medvedev's visit as &quot;deplorable&quot;. [http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/11/01/russia.kuril.islands/index.html?eref=edition (CNN)] ;Law and crime *Three suspected ivory [[poaching|poachers]] are shot dead by rangers in [[Kenya]] in separate incidents. [http://www.kbc.co.ke/news.asp?nid=67316 (Kenya Broadcasting Corporation)] [http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/africa/11/01/kenya.poaching/ (CNN)] *A court in [[Uganda]] orders a newspaper to cease publishing the names and photographs of people it says are [[homosexuality|homosexual]], following attacks on homosexuals in the past month. [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-11666789 (BBC)] *The [[Government of Canada]] agrees to accept [[Canada|Canadian]] [[Omar Khadr]], detained at [[Guantanamo Bay detention camp|Guantanamo Bay]] for the past eight years, after he serves a year of his sentence at the [[Guantanamo Bay detention camp]]. [http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/11/01/canada.khadr/index.html?eref=edition (CNN)] ;Politics and elections *[[Media of Burma|State media]] in [[Burma]] warn against a boycott of the [[Burmese general election, 2010|general election]] on Sunday, with the government threatening jail time for those encouraging a boycott. [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11668310 (BBC)] [http://www.upi.com/Top_News/Special/2010/11/01/Myanmar-sets-penalty-for-election-boycott/UPI-35101288622974/ (UPI)] *While attempting to open a mental healthcare facility in [[Dublin]], Irish Health Minister [[Mary Harney]] is pelted with red paint by an opposition politician highlighting the &quot;blood budget&quot; which &quot;will result in the unnecessary and avoidable deaths of hundreds, if not thousands, of people over the coming years&quot;. Harney is overseeing hospital cuts of €1 billion. [http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/World/Story/STIStory_598214.html (''The Straits Times'')] [http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=12022960 (ABC News)] [http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1101/harneym.html (RTÉ)] &lt;!-- All news items above this line --&gt;|}</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:99.66.19.95&diff=394692267</id> <title>User talk:99.66.19.95</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:99.66.19.95&diff=394692267"/> <updated>2010-11-04T00:27:24Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Added welcome template to user talk page using TW <hr /> <div> == Welcome == {| align=&quot;center&quot; class=&quot;notice noprint&quot; style=&quot;background: lightyellow; border: 1px solid #aaa; padding: 0.5em; margin: 0.5em auto;&quot; |- | valign=&quot;top&quot; style=&quot;padding: 0.1em&quot; | | style=&quot;padding: 0.1em&quot; | Hello, and '''''[[Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers|welcome]] to Wikipedia!''''' Someone using this [[IP address]] has made unhelpful edits&amp;nbsp;to the page [[:Portal:Current events/2010 November 1]], which have been [[Help:Reverting|reverted]]. If you did this, in the future please try to contribute in a more constructive manner. If you did not do this, you may wish to consider &lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt;[{{fullurl:Special:Userlogin|type=signup&amp;returnto=Main_Page}} getting a username]&lt;/span&gt; to avoid confusion with other editors. You don't have to [[Special:Userlogin|log in]] to read or edit articles on Wikipedia, but creating an account is quick, free, requires no personal information, and has many [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|benefits]]. Without a username, your [[IP address]] is used to identify you. Some good links for newcomers are: *[[Help:Contents|Help contents]] - the main help page. *[[Wikipedia:Quick guide|Quick guide]] - a &quot;cheatsheet&quot; listing the main editing commands. *[[Wikipedia:Five pillars|The five pillars of Wikipedia]] *[[Wikipedia:Tutorial|Tutorial]] Please [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|sign your name]] on talk pages using four (~&amp;#126;~~); this will automatically produce your name and timestamp. If you need help, check out [[Wikipedia:Questions]], ask me on [[User talk:TFOWR{{!}}my talk page]], or place &lt;code&gt;{&amp;#123;helpme}}&lt;/code&gt; on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! &lt;!-- Template:Welcome-anon-vandal --&gt; [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 00:27, 4 November 2010 (UTC) |}</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:184.32.158.160&diff=394692083</id> <title>User talk:184.32.158.160</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:184.32.158.160&diff=394692083"/> <updated>2010-11-04T00:26:23Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Added welcome template to user talk page using TW <hr /> <div> == Welcome == {| align=&quot;center&quot; class=&quot;notice noprint&quot; style=&quot;background: lightyellow; border: 1px solid #aaa; padding: 0.5em; margin: 0.5em auto;&quot; |- | valign=&quot;top&quot; style=&quot;padding: 0.1em&quot; | | style=&quot;padding: 0.1em&quot; | Hello, and '''''[[Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers|welcome]] to Wikipedia!''''' Someone using this [[IP address]] has made unhelpful edits&amp;nbsp;to the page [[:Portal:Current events/2010 November 4]], which have been [[Help:Reverting|reverted]]. If you did this, in the future please try to contribute in a more constructive manner. If you did not do this, you may wish to consider &lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt;[{{fullurl:Special:Userlogin|type=signup&amp;returnto=Main_Page}} getting a username]&lt;/span&gt; to avoid confusion with other editors. You don't have to [[Special:Userlogin|log in]] to read or edit articles on Wikipedia, but creating an account is quick, free, requires no personal information, and has many [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|benefits]]. Without a username, your [[IP address]] is used to identify you. Some good links for newcomers are: *[[Help:Contents|Help contents]] - the main help page. *[[Wikipedia:Quick guide|Quick guide]] - a &quot;cheatsheet&quot; listing the main editing commands. *[[Wikipedia:Five pillars|The five pillars of Wikipedia]] *[[Wikipedia:Tutorial|Tutorial]] Please [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|sign your name]] on talk pages using four (~&amp;#126;~~); this will automatically produce your name and timestamp. If you need help, check out [[Wikipedia:Questions]], ask me on [[User talk:TFOWR{{!}}my talk page]], or place &lt;code&gt;{&amp;#123;helpme}}&lt;/code&gt; on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! &lt;!-- Template:Welcome-anon-vandal --&gt; [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 00:26, 4 November 2010 (UTC) |}</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:69.125.115.11&diff=394692053</id> <title>User talk:69.125.115.11</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:69.125.115.11&diff=394692053"/> <updated>2010-11-04T00:26:11Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Added welcome template to user talk page using TW <hr /> <div> == Welcome == {| align=&quot;center&quot; class=&quot;notice noprint&quot; style=&quot;background: lightyellow; border: 1px solid #aaa; padding: 0.5em; margin: 0.5em auto;&quot; |- | valign=&quot;top&quot; style=&quot;padding: 0.1em&quot; | | style=&quot;padding: 0.1em&quot; | Hello, and '''''[[Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers|welcome]] to Wikipedia!''''' Someone using this [[IP address]] has made unhelpful edits&amp;nbsp;to the page [[:Portal:Current events/2010 November 4]], which have been [[Help:Reverting|reverted]]. If you did this, in the future please try to contribute in a more constructive manner. If you did not do this, you may wish to consider &lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt;[{{fullurl:Special:Userlogin|type=signup&amp;returnto=Main_Page}} getting a username]&lt;/span&gt; to avoid confusion with other editors. You don't have to [[Special:Userlogin|log in]] to read or edit articles on Wikipedia, but creating an account is quick, free, requires no personal information, and has many [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|benefits]]. Without a username, your [[IP address]] is used to identify you. Some good links for newcomers are: *[[Help:Contents|Help contents]] - the main help page. *[[Wikipedia:Quick guide|Quick guide]] - a &quot;cheatsheet&quot; listing the main editing commands. *[[Wikipedia:Five pillars|The five pillars of Wikipedia]] *[[Wikipedia:Tutorial|Tutorial]] Please [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|sign your name]] on talk pages using four (~&amp;#126;~~); this will automatically produce your name and timestamp. If you need help, check out [[Wikipedia:Questions]], ask me on [[User talk:TFOWR{{!}}my talk page]], or place &lt;code&gt;{&amp;#123;helpme}}&lt;/code&gt; on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! &lt;!-- Template:Welcome-anon-vandal --&gt; [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 00:26, 4 November 2010 (UTC) |}</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Portal:Current_events/2010_November_4&diff=394691931</id> <title>Portal:Current events/2010 November 4</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Portal:Current_events/2010_November_4&diff=394691931"/> <updated>2010-11-04T00:25:26Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Reverted to revision 394682687 by SoxBot; rvv. (TW) <hr /> <div>{{Current events header|2010|11|4}} &lt;!-- All news items below this line --&gt; * &lt;!-- All news items above this line --&gt;|}</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:TFOWR&diff=394687764</id> <title>User talk:TFOWR</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:TFOWR&diff=394687764"/> <updated>2010-11-04T00:00:46Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: /* Labour Party */ r. - short term vs. long-term <hr /> <div>{{User:TFOWR/Talkheader}} {{User:MiszaBot/config |maxarchivesize = 200K |counter = 11 |minthreadsleft = 20 |algo = old(3d) |archive = User talk:TFOWR/Archive %(counter)d }}{{clear right}} {{Signpost-subscription|right|width=19em}} == BISE == Hi TFOWR, I've added the template and &quot;Arguments For/Against&quot; sections to [[Storm Warning (novel)]] - hope that's OK, not sure if the procedure is to wait for you to add the sections or not. Don't think there's any harm in me adding it. You may also want to check out the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3ABritish_Isles_Terminology_task_force%2FSpecific_Examples&amp;action=historysubmit&amp;diff=392807807&amp;oldid=392641551 latest contribution from Triton Rocker]] if you get a chance. --[[User:HighKing|HighKing]] ([[User talk:HighKing|talk]]) 19:43, 25 October 2010 (UTC) :I've not looked at BISE, but I (or rather [[User:TFOWR's left sock|my alternate account]]) saw that the TR issue had ended up on AN/ANI? I need to do some catching up today, I'll comment further once my clue-levels are restored. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 09:45, 26 October 2010 (UTC) ::TR was blocked for a year. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|Chipmunkdavis]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 09:59, 26 October 2010 (UTC) ::{{ec}} I've caught up enough to see a ''one year block''. Blimey, I've been trying to suggest for a while that the admins previously monitoring BISE might not be the evil, rouge admins that TR ''et al'' apparently believed we were, and that outside admins might take an even tougher line. Well, guess what. Outside admins took an even tougher line. What's the betting that this, too, gets challenged ''ad nauseum'' at AN and ANI, and it, too, gets upheld each time? [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 10:02, 26 October 2010 (UTC) == Block evasion == Some more [[Special:Contributions/78.148.84.145|block evasion]] for your attention, if you have time to break out the &lt;s&gt;cinder&lt;/s&gt;blocks. They left a note on [[User:Nakon]]'s talk page, asking why they'd been blocked. Not sure if it's worth overlooking this one since it's a single edit and not attempting to hide their identity, but their account was apparently blocked as a VOA, so that's a fairly good indication of the user's intention, I'd imagine. &lt;span id=&quot;sig&quot; style=&quot;background:#FFFFC0&quot;&gt;'''[[User:Giftiger wunsch|&lt;font face=&quot;Verdana&quot; color=&quot;#900000&quot;&gt;Giftiger&lt;font color=&quot;#FF0000&quot;&gt;Wunsch&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]]''' [[User talk:Giftiger wunsch|&lt;font face=&quot;Tahoma&quot; color=&quot;#0060A0&quot;&gt;[TALK]&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:29, 25 October 2010 (UTC) :{{diff2|392852435|TTTSNB has answered the IP's question}}. Given there's only one edit from the IP I'd be inclined to leave it (might be dynamic, I wouldn't want to block an innocent IP, etc). {{user0|Nakon}} seems to be about, so they can pick up any blocking if they feel it's warranted. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 09:52, 26 October 2010 (UTC) ::Fair enough; I thought it might be worth overlooking a single edit of that nature but thought I'd point it out just in case. &lt;span id=&quot;sig&quot; style=&quot;background:#FFFFC0&quot;&gt;'''[[User:Giftiger wunsch|&lt;font face=&quot;Verdana&quot; color=&quot;#900000&quot;&gt;Giftiger&lt;font color=&quot;#FF0000&quot;&gt;Wunsch&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]]''' [[User talk:Giftiger wunsch|&lt;font face=&quot;Tahoma&quot; color=&quot;#0060A0&quot;&gt;[TALK]&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 10:03, 26 October 2010 (UTC) == You got mail == Hi TFOWR, just sent you an email. Best, [[User:Daicaregos|Daicaregos]] ([[User talk:Daicaregos|talk]]) 14:22, 26 October 2010 (UTC) :Thanks. [[User:Daicaregos|Daicaregos]] ([[User talk:Daicaregos|talk]]) 14:53, 26 October 2010 (UTC) ::No problem. I've emailed you, but I guess you're as up-to-date now as the email ;-) One other thing - I posted at [[WP:AN#Younger editor, personal safety, and an article about a non-notable subject|WP:AN]], just in case I missed something. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 14:56, 26 October 2010 (UTC) == The thread == Your actions were fine (you missed deleting the userpage red redirect) but it was counter-intuitive to post about it to AN (increases visibility of their real name on a widely watched noticeboard), so I removed the thread. Best, –[[user:xeno|&lt;font face=&quot;verdana&quot; color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;'''xeno'''&lt;/font&gt;]][[user talk:xeno|&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;talk&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] 14:58, 26 October 2010 (UTC) :No worries, I was really looking for some sanity-checking, and I trust you to sanity-check my actions and, in this case, sanitise them too ;-) [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 14:59, 26 October 2010 (UTC) ::Think we're all sorted now =) –[[user:xeno|&lt;font face=&quot;verdana&quot; color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;'''xeno'''&lt;/font&gt;]][[user talk:xeno|&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;talk&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] 15:04, 26 October 2010 (UTC) == Vandal block request. == Hellow again. BTW, this request is that of an entirely different banana for the moment. The user on {{ipvandal|121.54.42.150}} has been inserting titles of [[tokusatsu]] and anime shows without any source to several Philippine TV program lists. This guy was previously blocked for 31 hours, but the guy was back to his old tricks after the block expired. BTW, I can't him to WP:AIV because his last edit is three hours ago, but I know he will strike again later in a few hours time. Thank you. - [[User: Nanami Kamimura|上村七美 (Nanami-chan)]] | &lt;small&gt;[[User talk: Nanami Kamimura|talkback]] | [[Special: Contributions/Nanami Kamimura|contribs]]&lt;/small&gt; 20:50, 26 October 2010 (UTC) :AIV might consider it, as it's clearly the same editor behind the IP. That said, I'm going to hold off for now and keep an eye out for edits over the next few hours (their editing times seem to be from about 01:00 UTC to 18:00 UTC). If I catch 'em in the act I'll block 'em. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 20:56, 26 October 2010 (UTC) ::BTW, WP:AIV is backlogged right now. This is why I am hesitant to put a repost on there. - [[User: Nanami Kamimura|上村七美 (Nanami-chan)]] | &lt;small&gt;[[User talk: Nanami Kamimura|talkback]] | [[Special: Contributions/Nanami Kamimura|contribs]]&lt;/small&gt; 20:59, 26 October 2010 (UTC) :::Hmmm, looks like the bot's on strike ;-) It looks like there's only one outstanding, the others have either been referred to SPI or declined. Anyway, ''I'm'' on strike - it's too late in the day for me to start being a hard-working admin ;-) [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 21:02, 26 October 2010 (UTC) == possible banned user violating their ban == {{Userlinks|The guy who blocks other blockers}} was banned over the weekend for persistant vandalism after added unsourced content to list of simpsons episodes, yesterday an IP called {{Userlinks|86.41.29.62}} editted the same page putting in the same unsourced content, I checked both user contributions and they are both editting TV related article so I suspect our banned user is back, on the other hand though the IPs edits are to a lot of disney articles I know this is a big guess/accusation but I fear the IP could even be banned user Bambifan!! the amount of disney articles is a big but probably not enough to prove, althou all the edits look troublesome, they're adding unsourced cartoons/films to the articles &lt;s&gt;but no one seems to have reverted them yet&lt;/s&gt;--[[User:Lerdthenerd|Lerdthenerd]] ([[User talk:Lerdthenerd|talk]]) 07:31, 27 October 2010 (UTC) :{{ec}} I'm looking at this now (about to look at the IP), but I'm in no way a Bambifan expert so may have to punt that part to SPI or ANI. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 07:53, 27 October 2010 (UTC) ::Not seeing a connection between The guy who... and the IP, to be honest. The only overlap is to [[List of The Simpsons episodes]]. The guy who... {{diff2|392550647|took issue with season 22}}, while the IP {{diff2|392993686|tried to add season 23}}. I don't really have enough data on The guy who... to call it - it wouldn't completely surprise me if the two turned out to be the same - any autoblock on The guy who... wouldn't necessarily affect the IP (IP could be dynamic) but equally with just one article in common, and the edits to that article not being directly equivalent, it's far to tough to say definitively that they're the same. The only thing I can recommend is keeping an eye on the IP. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 07:59, 27 October 2010 (UTC) ::ok I'll watch them--[[User:Lerdthenerd|Lerdthenerd]] ([[User talk:Lerdthenerd|talk]]) 08:17, 27 October 2010 (UTC) == [[WP:BISE|BISE]] cleanup. == [[Wikipedia talk:British Isles Terminology task force/Specific Examples#Conkers (Resolved)|Conkers]] and [[Wikipedia talk:British Isles Terminology task force/Specific Examples#...and Aesculus, Aesculus hippocastanum (Resolved)|Aesculus]] could probably be archived with resolved cases. [[Wikipedia talk:British Isles Terminology task force/Specific Examples#Polls|The polls]], [[Wikipedia talk:British Isles Terminology task force/Specific Examples#Categories|Categories]], [[Wikipedia talk:British Isles Terminology task force/Specific Examples#States of Alderney|States of Alderney]], and [[Wikipedia talk:British Isles Terminology task force/Specific Examples#British Isles terminology task force|the deletion discussion]] could also be archived, somewhere... They weren't exactly cases. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|Chipmunkdavis]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 10:39, 27 October 2010 (UTC) :Heh, I've been putting BISE off since the MfD concluded. I'll aim to take a look at archiving over the next few days. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 11:01, 27 October 2010 (UTC) ::Yes, I noticed! You've also made your name unclickable, for some strange reason. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|Chipmunkdavis]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 11:36, 27 October 2010 (UTC) :::It's my talkpage ;-) Try it on yours - the second part of your signature will also be unclickable. My sig works normally everywhere but here! [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 14:41, 27 October 2010 (UTC) ::::The second part of mine redirect to the &quot;#top&quot; of my talkpage, but then again, it's not a custom signature! What happened to the in your face red anyway, it's all dull now. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|Chipmunkdavis]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 15:20, 27 October 2010 (UTC) :::::I changed the red as the default &quot;red&quot; was a bit too bright. {{small|I have a theory that as time goes by the chance of me returning to the default signature steadily increases... though I did also have a theory that userboxes were evil...!}} [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 16:07, 27 October 2010 (UTC) == when you get a chance == [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:ANI#On_good_faith.2C_and_being_taken_for_total_mugs]. I'd like a quick outside view on the behaviour here (appaently [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive643#Blocking_MickMacNee_from_AfD_boards_permanently_for_PA_and_UNCIVIL_violations|this]] is relevant also). Mick's had full and fair warning and decided to ignore it, also LemonMonday is back. Just wanted a sanity check in case I am wrong here--[[User:Cailil|&lt;font color=&quot;#999999&quot; size=&quot;2&quot;&gt;'''Cailil'''&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Cailil|&lt;font color=&quot;#999999&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:05, 27 October 2010 (UTC) == [[Stages: Three Days in Mexico]] == Hey TFOWR! I made a mistake with a speedy deletion request for this article, but my reason for it was that it doesn't meet notability guidelines. [[User:Xwomanizerx|Xwomanizerx]] ([[User talk:Xwomanizerx|talk]]) 00:53, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :No worries, it happens! I'd suggest a [[WP:PROD]] or [[WP:AFD]], as on the face of it it seems to have enough significance/importance to survive speedy deletion (and I can't think of a speedy criteria that would apply, anyway - A9 comes closest, but this isn't a musical recording and the &quot;Britney&quot; connection would probably rule A9 out anyway). [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 00:58, 28 October 2010 (UTC) == Rangoon11's filing of [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Codf1977]] and his other actions yesterday. == {{user5|Rangoon11}} {{user5|VHarris44}} {{user5|Derekspage}} Hi, I was a little surprised to see {{diff|User talk:Codf1977|393232829|392786398|this SPI notice}} posted to my talk page, however not surprised by who posted it. I know that I and Rangoon11 have &quot;history&quot; - however can you have a look at his actions yesterday with a couple of new editors and see if there is anything untoward ? After what looks to have started as a content dispute over Office locations with one editor {{user|Vharris44}} and at KCL with another {{user|Derekspage}} ended with a SPI on me and Vharris44 blocked for harassment. On Tuesday, it looks like vharris44 had an issue with the Office location section at [[DLA Piper]], after a revert or two this was discussed in the talk page. A number of other editors would seem to have agreed there were problems with the section and the disucssion was progressing. During the discussion, Rangoon11 posted a {{diff|Talk:DLA Piper|392976904|392970911|list}} of other articles with a similar Office location sections. Yesterday vharris44 then made edits to the Office Location sections of the articles listed by Rangoon11 (all bar one [[K&amp;L Gates]]), in the order that they are listed. Of the list only two ([[Baker &amp; McKenzie]] and [[Linklaters]]) show edits by Rangoon11 prior to Vharris44, the rest ([[Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher &amp; Flom]], [[Jones Day]], [[Gide Loyrette Nouel]], [[Linklaters]] and [[Greenberg Traurig]]) Vharris44 edited prior to Rangoon11 (this is important as vharris44's block was for harassment). There then followed a revert by Rangoon11 on [[Linklaters]] follwed by a revert by Vharris on a series of revert edits by Rangoon11 on [[King's College London]] ({{diff|King's College London|393178385|393178252|here}}). There then followed a series of revert and counter reverts and talk page postings by both editors to various locations. Prior to Vharris44's KCL revert, Derekspage had been making a number of edits to KCL, which Rangoon11 then reverted. I believe then Rangoon11 tried to game the system, he posted to [[WP:ANI]] {{diff|Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents|393189205|393189138|this}} post where he concludes that Vharris44, Derekspage are one in the same and they are also me and that he was &quot;not sure what to do about it.&quot;, of cause he knew exactly what to do as he himself had been through the same processes less than three weeks ago. I suspect he was hopeful that another editor would file the SPI, instead Vharris44 got blocked for harassment, which I am finding hard to see (unless there are some deleted edits which I can't see in history) given the fact that it was Rangoon11 that followed Vharris44 to most of the articles and not the other way around. Having waited some three hours after being pointed in the direction of SPI, when it became clear that none of the other editors were going to file a SPI, Rangoon11, filed [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Codf1977|one]]; which not surprisingly, came back as &quot;not related&quot;. I believe that this was a bad faith tit-for-tat filing done in revenge for mine on him (I have posted to the SPI to that effect). I would welcome your comments and/or suggestions on any action or way forward following this. [[User:Codf1977|Codf1977]] ([[User talk:Codf1977|talk]]) 10:04, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :I'll take a look into it. I had seen the SPI and assumed it was nonsense, so it wasn't a surprise when it came back negative. Right now my big worry is around VHarris - the block and subsequent unblock reviews were around harassment and socking, and it sounds as if harassment may be, and socking is, incorrect. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 10:19, 28 October 2010 (UTC) ::OK, I've worked out the timeline ([[#Timeline|below]]). Given the timing of Rangoon11's &quot;list of offices&quot; post, and the subsequent edits and reverts by both editors, I wouldn't necessarily quibble with a block for harassment, though an indef block seems a little harsh for a newbie editor (assuming that VHarris44 ''is'' a newbie editor). It seems to me that Rangoon11 made the &quot;other crap exists&quot; argument to justify the list of [[DLA Piper]] offices. {{small|I take no view on whether the list is or isn't encyclopaedic (though I will comment that I hate, despise, and wish to kill-by-fire flags used for decoration like this...!)}} VHarris44 then took that list and attempted to address what they saw as a wider problem. Rangoon11 reverted them. In most cases (the exception being [[Linklaters]]) VHarris44 edited the article before Rangoon11. The case for harassment then hinges on whether VHarris44 working through Rangoon11's list constitutes harassment. I can see a case for it being a good-faith attempt to fix issues that VHarris44 had previously been unaware existed. I can also see a case for it being a bad-faith attempt to justify a change to [[DLA Piper]]. I'm going to run this past the blocking admin, as it doesn't seem to quite clear-cut enough to justify an indef block. I'm also concerned at the unblock reviews: there was a justifiable suspicion of socking at the time of the reviews; however, this subsequently turned out - so far as I can see - to be not the case. There may, obviously, be factors here that I've missed - I've considered (and rejected, obviously) whether VHarris44 is a sock of you or Derekspage; I have not, however, looked at IP editors or any registered editors apart from you and the three you mentioned here. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 11:26, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :::{{small|Oh, and VHarris44 has ''no'' deleted contribs. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 12:24, 28 October 2010 (UTC)}} :::: Thanks for the time and effort looking into this. You should probably be aware that Rangoon11 has posted to ANI concerning my post here - it is at [[WP:ANI#Harrassment by User:Codf1977]]. [[User:Codf1977|Codf1977]] ([[User talk:Codf1977|talk]]) 12:30, 28 October 2010 (UTC) ::::: Aye, seen it. Tangentially related, but {{diff2|393404781|I asked LessHeard vanU}} to take a look at VHarris44's block. I wouldn't say it's a &quot;bad block&quot; by any stretch, but I do think it's worth examining in more detail, based on the issues you've raised. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 12:37, 28 October 2010 (UTC) === Timeline === * {{la|DLA Piper}} ** ''Rangoon11: first edit @ {{diff|1=DLA_Piper|2=381389214|3=378560581|4=2010-08-13 15:34}}'' {{tick}} ** Rangoon11: edit @ {{diff2|392965843|2010-10-26 09:59}} *** VHarris44: '''revert''' @ {{diff2|392971107|2010-10-26 10:44}} {{cross}} ** '''''Rangoon11: list of offices @ {{diff2|392976904|2010-10-26 11:32}}''''' * {{la|Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher &amp; Flom}} ** VHarris44: first edit @ {{diff|1=Skadden,_Arps,_Slate,_Meagher_&amp;_Flom|2=393174311|3=390027956|4=2010-10-27 09:55}} {{tick}} *** Rangoon11: first edit/'''revert''' @ {{diff2|393184971|2010-10-27 11:21}} {{cross}} * {{la|Jones Day}} ** VHarris44: first edit @ {{diff|1=Jones_Day|2=393175177|3=389787535|4=2010-10-27 10:01}} {{tick}} *** Rangoon11: first edit/'''revert''' @ {{diff2|393185059|2010-10-27 11:21}} {{cross}} * {{la|Gide Loyrette Nouel}} ** VHarris44: first edit @ {{diff2|393175271|2010-10-27 10:02}} {{tick}} *** Rangoon11: first edit/'''revert''' @ {{diff2|393185112|2010-10-27 11:22}} {{cross}} * {{la|Linklaters}} ** ''Rangoon11: first edit @ {{diff|1=Linklaters|2=392300193|3=377821897|4=2010-10-22 10:43}}'' {{tick}} ** VHarris44: edit @ {{diff|1=Linklaters|2=393175409|3=392808479|4=2010-10-27 10:03}} *** Rangoon11: '''revert''' @ {{diff2|393178136|2010-10-27 10:26}} {{cross}} * {{la|Greenberg Traurig}} ** VHarris44: first edit @ {{diff2|393175650|2010-10-27 10:05}} {{tick}} *** Rangoon11: first edit/'''revert''' @ {{diff2|393185189|2010-10-27 11:22}} {{cross}} * {{la|Baker &amp; McKenzie}} ** ''Rangoon11: first edit @ {{diff2|392808623|2010-10-25 16:07}}'' {{tick}} ** ''VHarris44: first edit @ {{diff|1=Baker_&amp;_McKenzie|2=393174822|3=393037678|4=2010-10-27 09:58}}'' * {{la|King's College London}} ** ''Rangoon11: first edit @ {{diff|1=King's_College_London|2=388889865|3=388882560|4=2010-10-05 12:52}}'' {{tick}} ** ''VHarris44: first edit @ {{diff2|393178385|2010-10-27 10:28}}'' == Matty or Mark, what is the difference? == [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Republic_of_Ireland&amp;oldid=388791628 BigMatty93] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Republic_of_Ireland&amp;oldid=393455650 MarkUTR]. As quite rightly you will not be convinced they are the same editor, I think a stern warning from someone like yourself over that particular change might be in order? Thank you. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 17:07, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :{{diff2|393457995|I don't know about a stern warning, but I left a message}}. {{small|You could probably do stuff like this yourself ;-) Just keep it [[WP:AGF]]y, and explain things clearly. Admins only really need to step in if advice gets ignored and editing becomes problematic.}} [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 17:19, 28 October 2010 (UTC) ::OK. People tend to ignore me though.. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 18:47, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :::You and me both! (Though I'll admit it did seem to work in this case...) It does mean when you take it to an admin or AIV (etc) that the admin will be more inclined to reach straight for the mop. I haven't checked - there may already be one - but there should maybe be an edit notice at [[Republic of Ireland]], explaining this situation. Not that editors necessarily pay any notice to edit notices, either - I seem to miss them all the time... [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 18:51, 28 October 2010 (UTC) ::::Never mind. You have each other. ;) [[User:Jack forbes|Jack forbes]] ([[User talk:Jack forbes|talk]]) 18:54, 28 October 2010 (UTC) == Quick request == Since I know you are here. Semi-protect [[The Troubles]] please, it is taking a battering from various IPs. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 18:53, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :{{done}}. Sorry I missed this earlier, I was getting a lot of orange-bar madness from an IP (hence the semi-protection right now...) [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 20:33, 28 October 2010 (UTC) ::No problem. It seems to have stopped now anyway, but that might just be a temporary respite. Thank you. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 20:34, 28 October 2010 (UTC) == 84.1.210.17 == You beat me in removing it by a second, can you block the editor as typical trolling. Thanks [[User:Secret|Secret]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Secret|account]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:13, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :{{done}}. I was inclined to leave it, but I spotted Yworo's post on their talkpage and from that their gross refactoring. That, with the trolling, tipped the balance... [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 20:31, 28 October 2010 (UTC) == BISE opposers == Why can't those editors (who oppose BISE) begin an RfC? The ''&quot;it's everybodies fault, but ours&quot;'' cry, is becoming lame. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 21:32, 28 October 2010 (UTC) TR needs someone to transfer his 'side of the story' to ANI. Do ya know how to do it? [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 14:08, 29 October 2010 (UTC) :I saw it earlier - one thing that leapt out was he had a whole raft of separate sections, and I suspect anyone considering it would think either (a) &quot;that's way too much, and theres some content-dispute stuff in there that doesn't belong at ANI anyway&quot;, or (b) &quot;what needs to be copied over to ANI and what needs to be left?&quot; :I suspect I'm to blame for the content-dispute stuff - I mentioned that TR's claim re: BskyB wasn't as straightforward as TR was making out, and now TR wants to retort. TR isn't telling me anything I don't know (and haven't already said at ANI), and isn't addressing the underlying point: that the issue isn't as simple as TR claimed. I'm buggered if I'm copying it all to ANI or to BISE - that would be editing-by-proxy (and TR should be aware of that - LevenBoy's been blocked for that nonsense before now). :You could maybe get TR to sort out the wheat from the chaff - work out which parts address their block, and which parts are comments on content or other editors - and then copy it to ANI for TR? If TR restricts themselves to on-topic comments about their block, and not content-disupte cruft or comments on Bjmullan (or any other editor), ''I'd'' be happy to copy it across. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 14:19, 29 October 2010 (UTC) ::I've advised him, to remove his comments on editors. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 14:31, 29 October 2010 (UTC) == User Needs Help Vanishing. == Hello, I am a friend of a user you blocked recently named studiodan. He is unable to contact you, so he asked if I could. He would like to use WP:RTV by changing his username to something random for privacy reasons. He cannot change his username because he is blocked, so I’m checking if you might be of assistance. Thank you. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/65.27.58.157|65.27.58.157]] ([[User talk:65.27.58.157|talk]]) 10:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Possibly. Studiodan will need to [[Special:EmailUser/TFOWR|email me]] to confirm, however. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 10:48, 30 October 2010 (UTC) == E-mail == {{YGM|sig=[[User:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green;&quot;&gt;Hey&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:red;&quot;&gt;'''''Mid'''''&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[Special:Contributions/Heymid|contributions]]) 13:57, 30 October 2010 (UTC)}} == Request for input == Hi. I would appreciate your input on http://admintools.wikia.com/wiki/Admin_Tools_Wiki:Requests_for_rights/Heymid - thanks! &amp;nbsp; — '''&lt;font class=&quot;texhtml&quot;&gt;[[User:Jeff G.|Jeff]] [[User:Jeff G./talk|G.&amp;nbsp; ツ]]&lt;/font&gt;''' 14:40, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :I should point out that the above message is semi-spam; see &lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt;[{{fullurl:Special:Contributions|contribs=user&amp;target=Jeff+G.&amp;offset=20101101&amp;limit=8}} this link]&lt;/span&gt;. He probably chose the users based on my block log and talk page, so not all users are related (like Kww). He seems to be uncertain as to whether to grant me admin privileges at the Admin Tools Wiki (a test wiki for admin tools) or not. [[User:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green;&quot;&gt;Hey&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:red;&quot;&gt;'''''Mid'''''&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[Special:Contributions/Heymid|contributions]]) 15:02, 31 October 2010 (UTC) ::Heymid, why don't you focus on editing articles, like you've promised so very many times when begging to be unblocked, rather than wasting other people's time with administrative requests for something you have no use for? - [[User:Tournesol|Tournesol]] ([[User talk:Tournesol|talk]]) 16:14, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :::'''Tournesol, please stop stalking me.''' You have been told numerous times to stay away from me, but apparently you can't. And you apparently still interpret me as a troll. [[User:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green;&quot;&gt;Hey&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:red;&quot;&gt;'''''Mid'''''&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[Special:Contributions/Heymid|contributions]]) 16:54, 31 October 2010 (UTC) ::I asked everyone who's changed your rights on this wiki, plus your mentor, for input based on you having put forth your experience on this wiki as your sole qualification for adminship on that wiki. I did so because I was uncertain and those people have experience with your behavior as a user here and would be in a good position to evaluate it. Now that I have seen your reaction above (implying that I am a spammer), plus [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jeff_G.&amp;diff=393991644&amp;oldid=393984143 this input from Kww], I don't think you're ready. &amp;nbsp; — '''&lt;font class=&quot;texhtml&quot;&gt;[[User:Jeff G.|Jeff]] [[User:Jeff G./talk|G.&amp;nbsp; ツ]]&lt;/font&gt;''' 16:37, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :::OK. [[User:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green;&quot;&gt;Hey&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:red;&quot;&gt;'''''Mid'''''&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[Special:Contributions/Heymid|contributions]]) 16:42, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :::Got it. OK, Jeff G., I've no experience of the Admin Tools Wiki, but it sounds like your decision is sound. Heymid, I've got your email (from yesterday), I've not replied yet but will when I have some time. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 16:51, 31 October 2010 (UTC) {{Outindent|:::}} I don't really understand why a higher level of [[WP:CIR|competence]] is required at the ATW (Admin Tools Wiki). I just wanted to experiment the admin tools to see how the interface would be if I was an admin here. However, it is a Wikia (don't really know what's the difference). I don't know, maybe I should go to the prototype Wiki and try to get them there. I don't know, maybe administration is not for me (I've always dreamed about having the admin tools), as my attempts to get into those areas have so far really failed and just caused unnecessary messages at others' talk pages. [[User:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green;&quot;&gt;Hey&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:red;&quot;&gt;'''''Mid'''''&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[Special:Contributions/Heymid|contributions]]) 14:48, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == Really excellent == That was a really excellent response at TR's Talk Page. Holding a mirror up is hard for everyone. --[[User:HighKing|HighKing]] ([[User talk:HighKing|talk]]) 12:12, 1 November 2010 (UTC) Oh wad some power the giftie gie us :To see ourselves as others see us! [[Robert Burns]] [[User:Jack forbes|Jack forbes]] ([[User talk:Jack forbes|talk]]) 12:22, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :{{small|Recently most of the &quot;admin&quot; stuff I've been doing is via email; I've just sent an editor - not involved with BISE - an email in which I discuss, among other things, my views on Wikipedia and anarchy. One of these days I really need to write an essay: ''&quot;Wikipedia ''is'' anarchy&quot;''... it'll include Burns:}} {{cquote|For a' that, an' a' that,&lt;br /&gt;It's coming yet for a' that,&lt;br /&gt;That Man to Man, the world o'er,&lt;br /&gt;Shall brothers be for a' that.|author=Robert Burns|source=[[s:A Man's a Man for A' That|A Man's a Man for A' That]]}} :Reason I mention this is: nearly everything we do on Wikipedia is iterative and done through consensus. We're not done yet, but it's coming yet (fir aa that). We don't yet treat each other as equals (but it's coming yet, fir aa that). It's far too easy to look at other editors as our opponents{{mdash}}we've been conditioned into that through society, videogames, TV, war{{mdash}}but it's coming yet, and we're getting there{{mdash}}slowly!{{mdash}}and if we keep at it we'll make progress. Gradually, bit-by-bit, we're moving forward and BISE participants are opening up to the idea that we'll all in it together. Lord knows we're not there yet. DuncanHill's recent posts show there are still areas where we have to make progress, and there are plenty more. But it's coming yet, fir aa that. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 12:43, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == TR appeal == at [[WP:AN#Appeal by Triton Rocker]]. [[User:Ncmvocalist|Ncmvocalist]] ([[User talk:Ncmvocalist|talk]]) 15:17, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Aye, seen it, ta. I'm trying to find a way to ''support'' TR, but try as I might I can't find any way, nor much inclination to bother. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 15:20, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::I know exactly what you mean. I'm hoping I'll be pleasantly surprised rather than disappointed...I call it: &quot;positive thinking...sort of&quot;. :P [[User:Ncmvocalist|Ncmvocalist]] ([[User talk:Ncmvocalist|talk]]) 15:24, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Labour Party == Is it time for a permanent protect or at the least the review procedure on Labour Party?--[[User:Snowded|&lt;font color=&quot;#801818&quot; face=&quot;Papyrus&quot;&gt;'''Snowded'''&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Snowded#top|&lt;font color=&quot;#708090&quot; face=&quot;Baskerville&quot;&gt;TALK&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 19:26, 3 November 2010 (UTC) :I've been thinking about RfCs a lot recently, and I thought an RfC might be a useful first step - it's not just &quot;genres&quot; (&quot;Democratic socialism&quot; etc) but position - I've seen &quot;Centre-left&quot; changed to &quot;Centre-right&quot; recently. This would give us a good basis to revert with confidence, and might draw out some sources... at the very least it would prove there was a clear consensus, and I'd be far happier protecting for longer than the few days I've been doing up 'til now. But aye, this constant genre-changing is annoying. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 22:26, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::The party or the article? [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 22:36, 3 November 2010 (UTC) :::Why an RfC? Clear consensus on the talk page and a series of IP editors who edit war. Clear case for protection --[[User:Snowded|&lt;font color=&quot;#801818&quot; face=&quot;Papyrus&quot;&gt;'''Snowded'''&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Snowded#top|&lt;font color=&quot;#708090&quot; face=&quot;Baskerville&quot;&gt;TALK&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 23:11, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::::Short-term protection is easy to justify on the basis of the talkpage (and, if I remember rightly, an ANI discussion). But this has been going on for bloody ages, and I'd like to look at protecting it on a longer-term basis - and I wouldn't be comfortable doing that without clear consensus for it. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 00:00, 4 November 2010 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:TFOWR&diff=394672617</id> <title>User talk:TFOWR</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:TFOWR&diff=394672617"/> <updated>2010-11-03T22:26:52Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: /* Labour Party */ Probably... maybe an RfC as well <hr /> <div>{{User:TFOWR/Talkheader}} {{User:MiszaBot/config |maxarchivesize = 200K |counter = 11 |minthreadsleft = 20 |algo = old(3d) |archive = User talk:TFOWR/Archive %(counter)d }}{{clear right}} {{Signpost-subscription|right|width=19em}} == BISE == Hi TFOWR, I've added the template and &quot;Arguments For/Against&quot; sections to [[Storm Warning (novel)]] - hope that's OK, not sure if the procedure is to wait for you to add the sections or not. Don't think there's any harm in me adding it. You may also want to check out the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3ABritish_Isles_Terminology_task_force%2FSpecific_Examples&amp;action=historysubmit&amp;diff=392807807&amp;oldid=392641551 latest contribution from Triton Rocker]] if you get a chance. --[[User:HighKing|HighKing]] ([[User talk:HighKing|talk]]) 19:43, 25 October 2010 (UTC) :I've not looked at BISE, but I (or rather [[User:TFOWR's left sock|my alternate account]]) saw that the TR issue had ended up on AN/ANI? I need to do some catching up today, I'll comment further once my clue-levels are restored. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 09:45, 26 October 2010 (UTC) ::TR was blocked for a year. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|Chipmunkdavis]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 09:59, 26 October 2010 (UTC) ::{{ec}} I've caught up enough to see a ''one year block''. Blimey, I've been trying to suggest for a while that the admins previously monitoring BISE might not be the evil, rouge admins that TR ''et al'' apparently believed we were, and that outside admins might take an even tougher line. Well, guess what. Outside admins took an even tougher line. What's the betting that this, too, gets challenged ''ad nauseum'' at AN and ANI, and it, too, gets upheld each time? [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 10:02, 26 October 2010 (UTC) == Block evasion == Some more [[Special:Contributions/78.148.84.145|block evasion]] for your attention, if you have time to break out the &lt;s&gt;cinder&lt;/s&gt;blocks. They left a note on [[User:Nakon]]'s talk page, asking why they'd been blocked. Not sure if it's worth overlooking this one since it's a single edit and not attempting to hide their identity, but their account was apparently blocked as a VOA, so that's a fairly good indication of the user's intention, I'd imagine. &lt;span id=&quot;sig&quot; style=&quot;background:#FFFFC0&quot;&gt;'''[[User:Giftiger wunsch|&lt;font face=&quot;Verdana&quot; color=&quot;#900000&quot;&gt;Giftiger&lt;font color=&quot;#FF0000&quot;&gt;Wunsch&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]]''' [[User talk:Giftiger wunsch|&lt;font face=&quot;Tahoma&quot; color=&quot;#0060A0&quot;&gt;[TALK]&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:29, 25 October 2010 (UTC) :{{diff2|392852435|TTTSNB has answered the IP's question}}. Given there's only one edit from the IP I'd be inclined to leave it (might be dynamic, I wouldn't want to block an innocent IP, etc). {{user0|Nakon}} seems to be about, so they can pick up any blocking if they feel it's warranted. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 09:52, 26 October 2010 (UTC) ::Fair enough; I thought it might be worth overlooking a single edit of that nature but thought I'd point it out just in case. &lt;span id=&quot;sig&quot; style=&quot;background:#FFFFC0&quot;&gt;'''[[User:Giftiger wunsch|&lt;font face=&quot;Verdana&quot; color=&quot;#900000&quot;&gt;Giftiger&lt;font color=&quot;#FF0000&quot;&gt;Wunsch&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]]''' [[User talk:Giftiger wunsch|&lt;font face=&quot;Tahoma&quot; color=&quot;#0060A0&quot;&gt;[TALK]&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 10:03, 26 October 2010 (UTC) == You got mail == Hi TFOWR, just sent you an email. Best, [[User:Daicaregos|Daicaregos]] ([[User talk:Daicaregos|talk]]) 14:22, 26 October 2010 (UTC) :Thanks. [[User:Daicaregos|Daicaregos]] ([[User talk:Daicaregos|talk]]) 14:53, 26 October 2010 (UTC) ::No problem. I've emailed you, but I guess you're as up-to-date now as the email ;-) One other thing - I posted at [[WP:AN#Younger editor, personal safety, and an article about a non-notable subject|WP:AN]], just in case I missed something. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 14:56, 26 October 2010 (UTC) == The thread == Your actions were fine (you missed deleting the userpage red redirect) but it was counter-intuitive to post about it to AN (increases visibility of their real name on a widely watched noticeboard), so I removed the thread. Best, –[[user:xeno|&lt;font face=&quot;verdana&quot; color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;'''xeno'''&lt;/font&gt;]][[user talk:xeno|&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;talk&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] 14:58, 26 October 2010 (UTC) :No worries, I was really looking for some sanity-checking, and I trust you to sanity-check my actions and, in this case, sanitise them too ;-) [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 14:59, 26 October 2010 (UTC) ::Think we're all sorted now =) –[[user:xeno|&lt;font face=&quot;verdana&quot; color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;'''xeno'''&lt;/font&gt;]][[user talk:xeno|&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;talk&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] 15:04, 26 October 2010 (UTC) == Vandal block request. == Hellow again. BTW, this request is that of an entirely different banana for the moment. The user on {{ipvandal|121.54.42.150}} has been inserting titles of [[tokusatsu]] and anime shows without any source to several Philippine TV program lists. This guy was previously blocked for 31 hours, but the guy was back to his old tricks after the block expired. BTW, I can't him to WP:AIV because his last edit is three hours ago, but I know he will strike again later in a few hours time. Thank you. - [[User: Nanami Kamimura|上村七美 (Nanami-chan)]] | &lt;small&gt;[[User talk: Nanami Kamimura|talkback]] | [[Special: Contributions/Nanami Kamimura|contribs]]&lt;/small&gt; 20:50, 26 October 2010 (UTC) :AIV might consider it, as it's clearly the same editor behind the IP. That said, I'm going to hold off for now and keep an eye out for edits over the next few hours (their editing times seem to be from about 01:00 UTC to 18:00 UTC). If I catch 'em in the act I'll block 'em. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 20:56, 26 October 2010 (UTC) ::BTW, WP:AIV is backlogged right now. This is why I am hesitant to put a repost on there. - [[User: Nanami Kamimura|上村七美 (Nanami-chan)]] | &lt;small&gt;[[User talk: Nanami Kamimura|talkback]] | [[Special: Contributions/Nanami Kamimura|contribs]]&lt;/small&gt; 20:59, 26 October 2010 (UTC) :::Hmmm, looks like the bot's on strike ;-) It looks like there's only one outstanding, the others have either been referred to SPI or declined. Anyway, ''I'm'' on strike - it's too late in the day for me to start being a hard-working admin ;-) [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 21:02, 26 October 2010 (UTC) == possible banned user violating their ban == {{Userlinks|The guy who blocks other blockers}} was banned over the weekend for persistant vandalism after added unsourced content to list of simpsons episodes, yesterday an IP called {{Userlinks|86.41.29.62}} editted the same page putting in the same unsourced content, I checked both user contributions and they are both editting TV related article so I suspect our banned user is back, on the other hand though the IPs edits are to a lot of disney articles I know this is a big guess/accusation but I fear the IP could even be banned user Bambifan!! the amount of disney articles is a big but probably not enough to prove, althou all the edits look troublesome, they're adding unsourced cartoons/films to the articles &lt;s&gt;but no one seems to have reverted them yet&lt;/s&gt;--[[User:Lerdthenerd|Lerdthenerd]] ([[User talk:Lerdthenerd|talk]]) 07:31, 27 October 2010 (UTC) :{{ec}} I'm looking at this now (about to look at the IP), but I'm in no way a Bambifan expert so may have to punt that part to SPI or ANI. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 07:53, 27 October 2010 (UTC) ::Not seeing a connection between The guy who... and the IP, to be honest. The only overlap is to [[List of The Simpsons episodes]]. The guy who... {{diff2|392550647|took issue with season 22}}, while the IP {{diff2|392993686|tried to add season 23}}. I don't really have enough data on The guy who... to call it - it wouldn't completely surprise me if the two turned out to be the same - any autoblock on The guy who... wouldn't necessarily affect the IP (IP could be dynamic) but equally with just one article in common, and the edits to that article not being directly equivalent, it's far to tough to say definitively that they're the same. The only thing I can recommend is keeping an eye on the IP. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 07:59, 27 October 2010 (UTC) ::ok I'll watch them--[[User:Lerdthenerd|Lerdthenerd]] ([[User talk:Lerdthenerd|talk]]) 08:17, 27 October 2010 (UTC) == [[WP:BISE|BISE]] cleanup. == [[Wikipedia talk:British Isles Terminology task force/Specific Examples#Conkers (Resolved)|Conkers]] and [[Wikipedia talk:British Isles Terminology task force/Specific Examples#...and Aesculus, Aesculus hippocastanum (Resolved)|Aesculus]] could probably be archived with resolved cases. [[Wikipedia talk:British Isles Terminology task force/Specific Examples#Polls|The polls]], [[Wikipedia talk:British Isles Terminology task force/Specific Examples#Categories|Categories]], [[Wikipedia talk:British Isles Terminology task force/Specific Examples#States of Alderney|States of Alderney]], and [[Wikipedia talk:British Isles Terminology task force/Specific Examples#British Isles terminology task force|the deletion discussion]] could also be archived, somewhere... They weren't exactly cases. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|Chipmunkdavis]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 10:39, 27 October 2010 (UTC) :Heh, I've been putting BISE off since the MfD concluded. I'll aim to take a look at archiving over the next few days. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 11:01, 27 October 2010 (UTC) ::Yes, I noticed! You've also made your name unclickable, for some strange reason. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|Chipmunkdavis]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 11:36, 27 October 2010 (UTC) :::It's my talkpage ;-) Try it on yours - the second part of your signature will also be unclickable. My sig works normally everywhere but here! [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 14:41, 27 October 2010 (UTC) ::::The second part of mine redirect to the &quot;#top&quot; of my talkpage, but then again, it's not a custom signature! What happened to the in your face red anyway, it's all dull now. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|Chipmunkdavis]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 15:20, 27 October 2010 (UTC) :::::I changed the red as the default &quot;red&quot; was a bit too bright. {{small|I have a theory that as time goes by the chance of me returning to the default signature steadily increases... though I did also have a theory that userboxes were evil...!}} [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 16:07, 27 October 2010 (UTC) == when you get a chance == [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:ANI#On_good_faith.2C_and_being_taken_for_total_mugs]. I'd like a quick outside view on the behaviour here (appaently [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive643#Blocking_MickMacNee_from_AfD_boards_permanently_for_PA_and_UNCIVIL_violations|this]] is relevant also). Mick's had full and fair warning and decided to ignore it, also LemonMonday is back. Just wanted a sanity check in case I am wrong here--[[User:Cailil|&lt;font color=&quot;#999999&quot; size=&quot;2&quot;&gt;'''Cailil'''&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Cailil|&lt;font color=&quot;#999999&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:05, 27 October 2010 (UTC) == [[Stages: Three Days in Mexico]] == Hey TFOWR! I made a mistake with a speedy deletion request for this article, but my reason for it was that it doesn't meet notability guidelines. [[User:Xwomanizerx|Xwomanizerx]] ([[User talk:Xwomanizerx|talk]]) 00:53, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :No worries, it happens! I'd suggest a [[WP:PROD]] or [[WP:AFD]], as on the face of it it seems to have enough significance/importance to survive speedy deletion (and I can't think of a speedy criteria that would apply, anyway - A9 comes closest, but this isn't a musical recording and the &quot;Britney&quot; connection would probably rule A9 out anyway). [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 00:58, 28 October 2010 (UTC) == Rangoon11's filing of [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Codf1977]] and his other actions yesterday. == {{user5|Rangoon11}} {{user5|VHarris44}} {{user5|Derekspage}} Hi, I was a little surprised to see {{diff|User talk:Codf1977|393232829|392786398|this SPI notice}} posted to my talk page, however not surprised by who posted it. I know that I and Rangoon11 have &quot;history&quot; - however can you have a look at his actions yesterday with a couple of new editors and see if there is anything untoward ? After what looks to have started as a content dispute over Office locations with one editor {{user|Vharris44}} and at KCL with another {{user|Derekspage}} ended with a SPI on me and Vharris44 blocked for harassment. On Tuesday, it looks like vharris44 had an issue with the Office location section at [[DLA Piper]], after a revert or two this was discussed in the talk page. A number of other editors would seem to have agreed there were problems with the section and the disucssion was progressing. During the discussion, Rangoon11 posted a {{diff|Talk:DLA Piper|392976904|392970911|list}} of other articles with a similar Office location sections. Yesterday vharris44 then made edits to the Office Location sections of the articles listed by Rangoon11 (all bar one [[K&amp;L Gates]]), in the order that they are listed. Of the list only two ([[Baker &amp; McKenzie]] and [[Linklaters]]) show edits by Rangoon11 prior to Vharris44, the rest ([[Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher &amp; Flom]], [[Jones Day]], [[Gide Loyrette Nouel]], [[Linklaters]] and [[Greenberg Traurig]]) Vharris44 edited prior to Rangoon11 (this is important as vharris44's block was for harassment). There then followed a revert by Rangoon11 on [[Linklaters]] follwed by a revert by Vharris on a series of revert edits by Rangoon11 on [[King's College London]] ({{diff|King's College London|393178385|393178252|here}}). There then followed a series of revert and counter reverts and talk page postings by both editors to various locations. Prior to Vharris44's KCL revert, Derekspage had been making a number of edits to KCL, which Rangoon11 then reverted. I believe then Rangoon11 tried to game the system, he posted to [[WP:ANI]] {{diff|Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents|393189205|393189138|this}} post where he concludes that Vharris44, Derekspage are one in the same and they are also me and that he was &quot;not sure what to do about it.&quot;, of cause he knew exactly what to do as he himself had been through the same processes less than three weeks ago. I suspect he was hopeful that another editor would file the SPI, instead Vharris44 got blocked for harassment, which I am finding hard to see (unless there are some deleted edits which I can't see in history) given the fact that it was Rangoon11 that followed Vharris44 to most of the articles and not the other way around. Having waited some three hours after being pointed in the direction of SPI, when it became clear that none of the other editors were going to file a SPI, Rangoon11, filed [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Codf1977|one]]; which not surprisingly, came back as &quot;not related&quot;. I believe that this was a bad faith tit-for-tat filing done in revenge for mine on him (I have posted to the SPI to that effect). I would welcome your comments and/or suggestions on any action or way forward following this. [[User:Codf1977|Codf1977]] ([[User talk:Codf1977|talk]]) 10:04, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :I'll take a look into it. I had seen the SPI and assumed it was nonsense, so it wasn't a surprise when it came back negative. Right now my big worry is around VHarris - the block and subsequent unblock reviews were around harassment and socking, and it sounds as if harassment may be, and socking is, incorrect. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 10:19, 28 October 2010 (UTC) ::OK, I've worked out the timeline ([[#Timeline|below]]). Given the timing of Rangoon11's &quot;list of offices&quot; post, and the subsequent edits and reverts by both editors, I wouldn't necessarily quibble with a block for harassment, though an indef block seems a little harsh for a newbie editor (assuming that VHarris44 ''is'' a newbie editor). It seems to me that Rangoon11 made the &quot;other crap exists&quot; argument to justify the list of [[DLA Piper]] offices. {{small|I take no view on whether the list is or isn't encyclopaedic (though I will comment that I hate, despise, and wish to kill-by-fire flags used for decoration like this...!)}} VHarris44 then took that list and attempted to address what they saw as a wider problem. Rangoon11 reverted them. In most cases (the exception being [[Linklaters]]) VHarris44 edited the article before Rangoon11. The case for harassment then hinges on whether VHarris44 working through Rangoon11's list constitutes harassment. I can see a case for it being a good-faith attempt to fix issues that VHarris44 had previously been unaware existed. I can also see a case for it being a bad-faith attempt to justify a change to [[DLA Piper]]. I'm going to run this past the blocking admin, as it doesn't seem to quite clear-cut enough to justify an indef block. I'm also concerned at the unblock reviews: there was a justifiable suspicion of socking at the time of the reviews; however, this subsequently turned out - so far as I can see - to be not the case. There may, obviously, be factors here that I've missed - I've considered (and rejected, obviously) whether VHarris44 is a sock of you or Derekspage; I have not, however, looked at IP editors or any registered editors apart from you and the three you mentioned here. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 11:26, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :::{{small|Oh, and VHarris44 has ''no'' deleted contribs. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 12:24, 28 October 2010 (UTC)}} :::: Thanks for the time and effort looking into this. You should probably be aware that Rangoon11 has posted to ANI concerning my post here - it is at [[WP:ANI#Harrassment by User:Codf1977]]. [[User:Codf1977|Codf1977]] ([[User talk:Codf1977|talk]]) 12:30, 28 October 2010 (UTC) ::::: Aye, seen it. Tangentially related, but {{diff2|393404781|I asked LessHeard vanU}} to take a look at VHarris44's block. I wouldn't say it's a &quot;bad block&quot; by any stretch, but I do think it's worth examining in more detail, based on the issues you've raised. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 12:37, 28 October 2010 (UTC) === Timeline === * {{la|DLA Piper}} ** ''Rangoon11: first edit @ {{diff|1=DLA_Piper|2=381389214|3=378560581|4=2010-08-13 15:34}}'' {{tick}} ** Rangoon11: edit @ {{diff2|392965843|2010-10-26 09:59}} *** VHarris44: '''revert''' @ {{diff2|392971107|2010-10-26 10:44}} {{cross}} ** '''''Rangoon11: list of offices @ {{diff2|392976904|2010-10-26 11:32}}''''' * {{la|Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher &amp; Flom}} ** VHarris44: first edit @ {{diff|1=Skadden,_Arps,_Slate,_Meagher_&amp;_Flom|2=393174311|3=390027956|4=2010-10-27 09:55}} {{tick}} *** Rangoon11: first edit/'''revert''' @ {{diff2|393184971|2010-10-27 11:21}} {{cross}} * {{la|Jones Day}} ** VHarris44: first edit @ {{diff|1=Jones_Day|2=393175177|3=389787535|4=2010-10-27 10:01}} {{tick}} *** Rangoon11: first edit/'''revert''' @ {{diff2|393185059|2010-10-27 11:21}} {{cross}} * {{la|Gide Loyrette Nouel}} ** VHarris44: first edit @ {{diff2|393175271|2010-10-27 10:02}} {{tick}} *** Rangoon11: first edit/'''revert''' @ {{diff2|393185112|2010-10-27 11:22}} {{cross}} * {{la|Linklaters}} ** ''Rangoon11: first edit @ {{diff|1=Linklaters|2=392300193|3=377821897|4=2010-10-22 10:43}}'' {{tick}} ** VHarris44: edit @ {{diff|1=Linklaters|2=393175409|3=392808479|4=2010-10-27 10:03}} *** Rangoon11: '''revert''' @ {{diff2|393178136|2010-10-27 10:26}} {{cross}} * {{la|Greenberg Traurig}} ** VHarris44: first edit @ {{diff2|393175650|2010-10-27 10:05}} {{tick}} *** Rangoon11: first edit/'''revert''' @ {{diff2|393185189|2010-10-27 11:22}} {{cross}} * {{la|Baker &amp; McKenzie}} ** ''Rangoon11: first edit @ {{diff2|392808623|2010-10-25 16:07}}'' {{tick}} ** ''VHarris44: first edit @ {{diff|1=Baker_&amp;_McKenzie|2=393174822|3=393037678|4=2010-10-27 09:58}}'' * {{la|King's College London}} ** ''Rangoon11: first edit @ {{diff|1=King's_College_London|2=388889865|3=388882560|4=2010-10-05 12:52}}'' {{tick}} ** ''VHarris44: first edit @ {{diff2|393178385|2010-10-27 10:28}}'' == Matty or Mark, what is the difference? == [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Republic_of_Ireland&amp;oldid=388791628 BigMatty93] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Republic_of_Ireland&amp;oldid=393455650 MarkUTR]. As quite rightly you will not be convinced they are the same editor, I think a stern warning from someone like yourself over that particular change might be in order? Thank you. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 17:07, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :{{diff2|393457995|I don't know about a stern warning, but I left a message}}. {{small|You could probably do stuff like this yourself ;-) Just keep it [[WP:AGF]]y, and explain things clearly. Admins only really need to step in if advice gets ignored and editing becomes problematic.}} [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 17:19, 28 October 2010 (UTC) ::OK. People tend to ignore me though.. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 18:47, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :::You and me both! (Though I'll admit it did seem to work in this case...) It does mean when you take it to an admin or AIV (etc) that the admin will be more inclined to reach straight for the mop. I haven't checked - there may already be one - but there should maybe be an edit notice at [[Republic of Ireland]], explaining this situation. Not that editors necessarily pay any notice to edit notices, either - I seem to miss them all the time... [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 18:51, 28 October 2010 (UTC) ::::Never mind. You have each other. ;) [[User:Jack forbes|Jack forbes]] ([[User talk:Jack forbes|talk]]) 18:54, 28 October 2010 (UTC) == Quick request == Since I know you are here. Semi-protect [[The Troubles]] please, it is taking a battering from various IPs. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 18:53, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :{{done}}. Sorry I missed this earlier, I was getting a lot of orange-bar madness from an IP (hence the semi-protection right now...) [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 20:33, 28 October 2010 (UTC) ::No problem. It seems to have stopped now anyway, but that might just be a temporary respite. Thank you. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 20:34, 28 October 2010 (UTC) == 84.1.210.17 == You beat me in removing it by a second, can you block the editor as typical trolling. Thanks [[User:Secret|Secret]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Secret|account]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:13, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :{{done}}. I was inclined to leave it, but I spotted Yworo's post on their talkpage and from that their gross refactoring. That, with the trolling, tipped the balance... [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 20:31, 28 October 2010 (UTC) == BISE opposers == Why can't those editors (who oppose BISE) begin an RfC? The ''&quot;it's everybodies fault, but ours&quot;'' cry, is becoming lame. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 21:32, 28 October 2010 (UTC) TR needs someone to transfer his 'side of the story' to ANI. Do ya know how to do it? [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 14:08, 29 October 2010 (UTC) :I saw it earlier - one thing that leapt out was he had a whole raft of separate sections, and I suspect anyone considering it would think either (a) &quot;that's way too much, and theres some content-dispute stuff in there that doesn't belong at ANI anyway&quot;, or (b) &quot;what needs to be copied over to ANI and what needs to be left?&quot; :I suspect I'm to blame for the content-dispute stuff - I mentioned that TR's claim re: BskyB wasn't as straightforward as TR was making out, and now TR wants to retort. TR isn't telling me anything I don't know (and haven't already said at ANI), and isn't addressing the underlying point: that the issue isn't as simple as TR claimed. I'm buggered if I'm copying it all to ANI or to BISE - that would be editing-by-proxy (and TR should be aware of that - LevenBoy's been blocked for that nonsense before now). :You could maybe get TR to sort out the wheat from the chaff - work out which parts address their block, and which parts are comments on content or other editors - and then copy it to ANI for TR? If TR restricts themselves to on-topic comments about their block, and not content-disupte cruft or comments on Bjmullan (or any other editor), ''I'd'' be happy to copy it across. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 14:19, 29 October 2010 (UTC) ::I've advised him, to remove his comments on editors. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 14:31, 29 October 2010 (UTC) == User Needs Help Vanishing. == Hello, I am a friend of a user you blocked recently named studiodan. He is unable to contact you, so he asked if I could. He would like to use WP:RTV by changing his username to something random for privacy reasons. He cannot change his username because he is blocked, so I’m checking if you might be of assistance. Thank you. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/65.27.58.157|65.27.58.157]] ([[User talk:65.27.58.157|talk]]) 10:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Possibly. Studiodan will need to [[Special:EmailUser/TFOWR|email me]] to confirm, however. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 10:48, 30 October 2010 (UTC) == E-mail == {{YGM|sig=[[User:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green;&quot;&gt;Hey&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:red;&quot;&gt;'''''Mid'''''&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[Special:Contributions/Heymid|contributions]]) 13:57, 30 October 2010 (UTC)}} == Request for input == Hi. I would appreciate your input on http://admintools.wikia.com/wiki/Admin_Tools_Wiki:Requests_for_rights/Heymid - thanks! &amp;nbsp; — '''&lt;font class=&quot;texhtml&quot;&gt;[[User:Jeff G.|Jeff]] [[User:Jeff G./talk|G.&amp;nbsp; ツ]]&lt;/font&gt;''' 14:40, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :I should point out that the above message is semi-spam; see &lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt;[{{fullurl:Special:Contributions|contribs=user&amp;target=Jeff+G.&amp;offset=20101101&amp;limit=8}} this link]&lt;/span&gt;. He probably chose the users based on my block log and talk page, so not all users are related (like Kww). He seems to be uncertain as to whether to grant me admin privileges at the Admin Tools Wiki (a test wiki for admin tools) or not. [[User:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green;&quot;&gt;Hey&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:red;&quot;&gt;'''''Mid'''''&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[Special:Contributions/Heymid|contributions]]) 15:02, 31 October 2010 (UTC) ::Heymid, why don't you focus on editing articles, like you've promised so very many times when begging to be unblocked, rather than wasting other people's time with administrative requests for something you have no use for? - [[User:Tournesol|Tournesol]] ([[User talk:Tournesol|talk]]) 16:14, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :::'''Tournesol, please stop stalking me.''' You have been told numerous times to stay away from me, but apparently you can't. And you apparently still interpret me as a troll. [[User:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green;&quot;&gt;Hey&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:red;&quot;&gt;'''''Mid'''''&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[Special:Contributions/Heymid|contributions]]) 16:54, 31 October 2010 (UTC) ::I asked everyone who's changed your rights on this wiki, plus your mentor, for input based on you having put forth your experience on this wiki as your sole qualification for adminship on that wiki. I did so because I was uncertain and those people have experience with your behavior as a user here and would be in a good position to evaluate it. Now that I have seen your reaction above (implying that I am a spammer), plus [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jeff_G.&amp;diff=393991644&amp;oldid=393984143 this input from Kww], I don't think you're ready. &amp;nbsp; — '''&lt;font class=&quot;texhtml&quot;&gt;[[User:Jeff G.|Jeff]] [[User:Jeff G./talk|G.&amp;nbsp; ツ]]&lt;/font&gt;''' 16:37, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :::OK. [[User:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green;&quot;&gt;Hey&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:red;&quot;&gt;'''''Mid'''''&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[Special:Contributions/Heymid|contributions]]) 16:42, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :::Got it. OK, Jeff G., I've no experience of the Admin Tools Wiki, but it sounds like your decision is sound. Heymid, I've got your email (from yesterday), I've not replied yet but will when I have some time. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 16:51, 31 October 2010 (UTC) {{Outindent|:::}} I don't really understand why a higher level of [[WP:CIR|competence]] is required at the ATW (Admin Tools Wiki). I just wanted to experiment the admin tools to see how the interface would be if I was an admin here. However, it is a Wikia (don't really know what's the difference). I don't know, maybe I should go to the prototype Wiki and try to get them there. I don't know, maybe administration is not for me (I've always dreamed about having the admin tools), as my attempts to get into those areas have so far really failed and just caused unnecessary messages at others' talk pages. [[User:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green;&quot;&gt;Hey&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:red;&quot;&gt;'''''Mid'''''&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[Special:Contributions/Heymid|contributions]]) 14:48, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == Really excellent == That was a really excellent response at TR's Talk Page. Holding a mirror up is hard for everyone. --[[User:HighKing|HighKing]] ([[User talk:HighKing|talk]]) 12:12, 1 November 2010 (UTC) Oh wad some power the giftie gie us :To see ourselves as others see us! [[Robert Burns]] [[User:Jack forbes|Jack forbes]] ([[User talk:Jack forbes|talk]]) 12:22, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :{{small|Recently most of the &quot;admin&quot; stuff I've been doing is via email; I've just sent an editor - not involved with BISE - an email in which I discuss, among other things, my views on Wikipedia and anarchy. One of these days I really need to write an essay: ''&quot;Wikipedia ''is'' anarchy&quot;''... it'll include Burns:}} {{cquote|For a' that, an' a' that,&lt;br /&gt;It's coming yet for a' that,&lt;br /&gt;That Man to Man, the world o'er,&lt;br /&gt;Shall brothers be for a' that.|author=Robert Burns|source=[[s:A Man's a Man for A' That|A Man's a Man for A' That]]}} :Reason I mention this is: nearly everything we do on Wikipedia is iterative and done through consensus. We're not done yet, but it's coming yet (fir aa that). We don't yet treat each other as equals (but it's coming yet, fir aa that). It's far too easy to look at other editors as our opponents{{mdash}}we've been conditioned into that through society, videogames, TV, war{{mdash}}but it's coming yet, and we're getting there{{mdash}}slowly!{{mdash}}and if we keep at it we'll make progress. Gradually, bit-by-bit, we're moving forward and BISE participants are opening up to the idea that we'll all in it together. Lord knows we're not there yet. DuncanHill's recent posts show there are still areas where we have to make progress, and there are plenty more. But it's coming yet, fir aa that. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 12:43, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == TR appeal == at [[WP:AN#Appeal by Triton Rocker]]. [[User:Ncmvocalist|Ncmvocalist]] ([[User talk:Ncmvocalist|talk]]) 15:17, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Aye, seen it, ta. I'm trying to find a way to ''support'' TR, but try as I might I can't find any way, nor much inclination to bother. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 15:20, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::I know exactly what you mean. I'm hoping I'll be pleasantly surprised rather than disappointed...I call it: &quot;positive thinking...sort of&quot;. :P [[User:Ncmvocalist|Ncmvocalist]] ([[User talk:Ncmvocalist|talk]]) 15:24, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Labour Party == Is it time for a permanent protect or at the least the review procedure on Labour Party?--[[User:Snowded|&lt;font color=&quot;#801818&quot; face=&quot;Papyrus&quot;&gt;'''Snowded'''&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Snowded#top|&lt;font color=&quot;#708090&quot; face=&quot;Baskerville&quot;&gt;TALK&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 19:26, 3 November 2010 (UTC) :I've been thinking about RfCs a lot recently, and I thought an RfC might be a useful first step - it's not just &quot;genres&quot; (&quot;Democratic socialism&quot; etc) but position - I've seen &quot;Centre-left&quot; changed to &quot;Centre-right&quot; recently. This would give us a good basis to revert with confidence, and might draw out some sources... at the very least it would prove there was a clear consensus, and I'd be far happier protecting for longer than the few days I've been doing up 'til now. But aye, this constant genre-changing is annoying. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 22:26, 3 November 2010 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita&diff=394629651</id> <title>List of countries by GDP (nominal) per capita</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita&diff=394629651"/> <updated>2010-11-03T18:33:47Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Reverted edits by 24.190.220.87 (talk) to last version by Khalidshou <hr /> <div>[[File:GDP nominal per capita world map IMF 2009.png|300px|thumb|Countries by 2009 GDP (nominal) per capita (IMF, April 2010 estimate).]] This article includes three '''lists of countries of the world sorted by their [[gross domestic product]] [[per capita]] at [[nominal value]]s''', the value of all final goods and services produced within a nation in a given year, converted at market [[exchange rate]]s to current [[U.S. dollar]]s, divided by the average (or mid-year) population for the same year. The figures presented here do not take into account differences in the [[cost of living]] in different countries, and the results can vary greatly from one year to another based on fluctuations in the [[exchange rate]]s of the country's [[currency]]. Such fluctuations may change a country's ranking from one year to the next, even though they often make little or no difference to the standard of living of its population. Therefore these figures should be used with caution. Comparisons of national wealth are also frequently made on the basis of [[purchasing power parity]] (PPP), to adjust for differences in the cost of living in different countries. (''See'' [[List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita]].) PPP largely removes the exchange rate problem, but has its own drawbacks; it does not reflect the value of economic output in [[international trade]], and it also requires more estimation than GDP per capita. On the whole PPP per capita figures are more narrowly spread than nominal GDP per capita figures. Great care should be taken when using either set of figures to compare the wealth of two countries. Often people who wish to promote or denigrate a country will use the figure that suits their case best and ignore the other one, which may be substantially different, but a valid comparison of two economies should take both rankings into account, as well as utilising other economic data to put an economy in context. Non-sovereign entities (the world, the EU, and some [[dependent territories]]) are included in the list because they appear in the sources. These economies are not ranked in the charts here, but are listed in sequence by GDP for comparison. They are marked in ''italics''. * The first column includes data for the year 2009 from the [[International Monetary Fund]], including IMF members (plus the [[Hong Kong Special Administrative Region]]) for which information is available. * The second column includes data for the year 2009 from the [[World Bank]]. * The third column includes data from [[The World Factbook]], provided by the [[Central Intelligence Agency]]. Data between countries are not comparable as it may refer to different years. Figures are mostly estimates for 2009. All data are in current [[United States dollar]]s. {| |- | width=&quot;33%&quot; align=&quot;center&quot; | '''[[International Monetary Fund]] (2009)'''&lt;ref&gt;Data refer to the year 2009. [http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2010/02/weodata/weorept.aspx?pr.x=29&amp;pr.y=9&amp;sy=2009&amp;ey=2009&amp;scsm=1&amp;ssd=1&amp;sort=country&amp;ds=.&amp;br=1&amp;c=512%2C941%2C914%2C446%2C612%2C666%2C614%2C668%2C311%2C672%2C213%2C946%2C911%2C137%2C193%2C962%2C122%2C674%2C912%2C676%2C313%2C548%2C419%2C556%2C513%2C678%2C316%2C181%2C913%2C682%2C124%2C684%2C339%2C273%2C638%2C921%2C514%2C948%2C218%2C943%2C963%2C686%2C616%2C688%2C223%2C518%2C516%2C728%2C918%2C558%2C748%2C138%2C618%2C196%2C522%2C278%2C622%2C692%2C156%2C694%2C624%2C142%2C626%2C449%2C628%2C564%2C228%2C283%2C924%2C853%2C233%2C288%2C632%2C293%2C636%2C566%2C634%2C964%2C238%2C182%2C662%2C453%2C960%2C968%2C423%2C922%2C935%2C714%2C128%2C862%2C611%2C716%2C321%2C456%2C243%2C722%2C248%2C942%2C469%2C718%2C253%2C724%2C642%2C576%2C643%2C936%2C939%2C961%2C644%2C813%2C819%2C199%2C172%2C184%2C132%2C524%2C646%2C361%2C648%2C362%2C915%2C364%2C134%2C732%2C652%2C366%2C174%2C734%2C328%2C144%2C258%2C146%2C656%2C463%2C654%2C528%2C336%2C923%2C263%2C738%2C268%2C578%2C532%2C537%2C944%2C742%2C176%2C866%2C534%2C369%2C536%2C744%2C429%2C186%2C433%2C925%2C178%2C746%2C436%2C926%2C136%2C466%2C343%2C112%2C158%2C111%2C439%2C298%2C916%2C927%2C664%2C846%2C826%2C299%2C542%2C582%2C967%2C474%2C443%2C754%2C917%2C698%2C544&amp;s=NGDPDPC&amp;grp=0&amp;a= World Economic Outlook Database-October 2010], [[International Monetary Fund]]. Accessed on October 6, 2010.&lt;/ref&gt; | width=&quot;33%&quot; align=&quot;center&quot; | '''[[World Bank]] (2009)'''&lt;ref&gt;Data refer to the year 2009. [http://databank.worldbank.org/ddp/home.do?Step=12&amp;id=4&amp;CNO=2 World Development Indicators database], [[World Bank]]. Accessed on October 3, 2010.&lt;/ref&gt; | width=&quot;33%&quot; align=&quot;center&quot; | '''[[The World Factbook|CIA World Factbook]]'''&lt;ref&gt;[https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2195.html GDP (official exchange rate)] &amp; [https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2119rank.html Population], [[The World Factbook]], [[Central Intelligence Agency]], accessed on April 28, 2010. Pre-2009 population data obtained from [http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idb/tables.html Total Midyear Population], [[U.S. Census Bureau]], International Data Base, accessed on April 28, 2010. Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas) population data obtained from [http://www.umsl.edu/services/govdocs/wofact2002/geos/fk.html The World Factbook 2002 archive]. Niue population data obtained from [http://www.umsl.edu/services/govdocs/wofact2003/geos/ne.html The World Factbook 2003 archive] Note: Per capita values were obtained by dividing the GDP (official exchange rate) data by the Population data. The figures were then rounded to the nearest hundred in typical Factbook fashion.&lt;/ref&gt; |- valign=&quot;top&quot; | {| class=&quot;wikitable sortable&quot; style=&quot;margin-left:auto;margin-right:auto;text-align: right&quot; ! Rank ! Country ! [[United States dollar|US$]] |- | 1 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Luxembourg}} || 105,918 |- | 2 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Norway}} || 78,178 |- | 3 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Switzerland}} || 63,536 |- | 4 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Qatar}} || 59,990 |- | 5 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Denmark}} || 56,263 |- | 6 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Ireland}} || 49,863 |- | 7 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Netherlands}} || 48,209 |- | 8 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|United States}} || 45,934 |- | 9 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Austria}} || 45,686 |- | 10 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|United Arab Emirates}} || 45,615 |- | 11 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Australia}} || 45,285 |- | 12 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Finland}} || 44,581 |- | 13 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Belgium}} || 43,794 |- | 14 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Sweden}} || 43,668 |- | 15 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|France}} || 42,413 |- | 16 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Germany}} || 40,832 |- | 17 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Japan}} || 39,740 |- | 18 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Canada}} || 39,658 |- | 19 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Iceland}} || 37,991 |- | 20 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Singapore}} || 36,379 |- | 21 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Italy}} || 35,435 |- | 22 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|United Kingdom}} || 35,257 |- | 23 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Spain}} || 32,030 |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | ''{{flag|Hong Kong}}'' || 29,803 |- | 24 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Greece}} || 29,635 |- | 25 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Cyprus}} || 29,620 |- | 26 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Kuwait}} || 27,835 |- | 27 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|New Zealand}} || 27,259 |- | 28 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Israel}} || 26,874 |- | 29 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Brunei}} || 25,386 |- | 30 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Slovenia}} || 24,111 |- | 31 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Portugal}} || 21,970 |- | 32 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Bahamas, The}} || 21,651 |- | 33 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Bahrain}} || 19,817 |- | 34 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Malta}} || 19,238 |- | 35 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Czech Republic}} || 18,256 |- | 36 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Korea, South}} || 17,074 |- | 37 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Taiwan}} ([[Republic of China]]) || 16,372 |- | 38 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Slovakia}} || 16,282 |- | 39 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Oman}} || 15,996 |- | 40 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Croatia}} || 15,284 |- | 41 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Trinidad and Tobago}}&lt;ref&gt;Population data for Trinidad and Tobago were obtained from the [http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2010/01/weodata/weorept.aspx?pr.x=31&amp;pr.y=11&amp;sy=2009&amp;ey=2009&amp;scsm=1&amp;ssd=1&amp;sort=country&amp;ds=.&amp;br=1&amp;c=369&amp;s=LP&amp;grp=0&amp;a= World Economic Outlook Database-April 2010], [[International Monetary Fund]], accessed on October 6, 2010.&lt;/ref&gt; || 15,005 |- | 42 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Saudi Arabia}} || 14,745 |- | 43 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Estonia}} || 14,402 |- | 44 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Barbados}} || 14,105 |- | 45 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Antigua and Barbuda}} || 13,150 |- | 46 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Hungary}} || 12,914 |- | 47 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Latvia}} || 11,466 |- | 48 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Venezuela}} || 11,383 |- | 49 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Poland}} || 11,302 |- | 50 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Lithuania}} || 11,115 |- | 51 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Saint Kitts and Nevis}} || 10,315 |- | 52 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Equatorial Guinea}}&lt;ref&gt;The IMF is using a 2008 population estimate based on a 2001 census whose validity has been called into question. A 2003 U.S. State Department report on Equatorial Guinea stated that &quot;although the 2002 (sic) census estimated the population at 1,015,000, credible estimates put the number at closer to 500,000. The opposition claimed that the Government inflated the census in anticipation of the December presidential election. (...) Opposition leaders charged earlier in the year that census results showing a twofold population increase were flawed and that numbers were inflated to perpetuate election fraud.&quot; [http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2002/18181.htm]&lt;/ref&gt; || 9,577 |- | 53 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Chile}} || 9,516 |- | 54 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Libya}} || 9,511 |- | 55 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Uruguay}} || 9,420 |- | 56 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Seychelles}} || 9,253 |- | 57 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Lebanon}} || 8,951 |- | 58 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Turkey}} || 8,711 |- | 59 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Russia}} || 8,681 |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{noflag}}''[[Gross world product|World]]''&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2010/02/weodata/weorept.aspx?pr.x=30&amp;pr.y=11&amp;sy=2009&amp;ey=2009&amp;scsm=1&amp;ssd=1&amp;sort=country&amp;ds=.&amp;br=1&amp;c=001&amp;s=NGDPD&amp;grp=1&amp;a=1 World GDP (nominal)] &amp; [http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2010/02/weodata/weorept.aspx?pr.x=30&amp;pr.y=9&amp;sy=2009&amp;ey=2009&amp;scsm=1&amp;ssd=1&amp;sort=country&amp;ds=.&amp;br=1&amp;c=512%2C941%2C914%2C446%2C612%2C666%2C614%2C668%2C311%2C672%2C213%2C946%2C911%2C137%2C193%2C962%2C122%2C674%2C912%2C676%2C313%2C548%2C419%2C556%2C513%2C678%2C316%2C181%2C913%2C682%2C124%2C684%2C339%2C273%2C638%2C921%2C514%2C948%2C218%2C943%2C963%2C686%2C616%2C688%2C223%2C518%2C516%2C728%2C918%2C558%2C748%2C138%2C618%2C196%2C522%2C278%2C622%2C692%2C156%2C694%2C624%2C142%2C626%2C449%2C628%2C564%2C228%2C283%2C924%2C853%2C233%2C288%2C632%2C293%2C636%2C566%2C634%2C964%2C238%2C182%2C662%2C453%2C960%2C968%2C423%2C922%2C935%2C714%2C128%2C862%2C611%2C716%2C321%2C456%2C243%2C722%2C248%2C942%2C469%2C718%2C253%2C724%2C642%2C576%2C643%2C936%2C939%2C961%2C644%2C813%2C819%2C199%2C172%2C184%2C132%2C524%2C646%2C361%2C648%2C362%2C915%2C364%2C134%2C732%2C652%2C366%2C174%2C734%2C328%2C144%2C258%2C146%2C656%2C463%2C654%2C528%2C336%2C923%2C263%2C738%2C268%2C578%2C532%2C537%2C944%2C742%2C176%2C866%2C534%2C369%2C536%2C744%2C429%2C186%2C433%2C925%2C178%2C746%2C436%2C926%2C136%2C466%2C343%2C112%2C158%2C111%2C439%2C298%2C916%2C927%2C664%2C846%2C826%2C299%2C542%2C582%2C967%2C474%2C443%2C754%2C917%2C698%2C544&amp;s=LP&amp;grp=0&amp;a= Country population], World Economic Outlook Database-October 2010, [[International Monetary Fund]]. Note: Per capita values were obtained by dividing the GDP data by the population data for [http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2010/01/weodata/weoselagr.aspx#a001 183 countries]. Population data for Montenegro were obtained by dividing its [http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2010/02/weodata/weorept.aspx?pr.x=30&amp;pr.y=14&amp;sy=2009&amp;ey=2009&amp;scsm=1&amp;ssd=1&amp;sort=country&amp;ds=.&amp;br=1&amp;c=943&amp;s=PPPGDP%2CPPPPC&amp;grp=0&amp;a= PPP GDP by its PPP GDP per capita]. Population data for Kosovo were obtained from the [http://databank.worldbank.org/ddp/home.do?Step=12&amp;id=4&amp;CNO=2 World Development Indicators database], [[World Bank]]. Population data for Trinidad and Tobago were obtained from the [http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2010/01/weodata/weorept.aspx?pr.x=31&amp;pr.y=11&amp;sy=2009&amp;ey=2009&amp;scsm=1&amp;ssd=1&amp;sort=country&amp;ds=.&amp;br=1&amp;c=369&amp;s=LP&amp;grp=0&amp;a= World Economic Outlook Database-April 2010], [[International Monetary Fund]]. All data accessed on October 6, 2010.&lt;/ref&gt; || 8,587 |- | 60 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Brazil}} || 8,220 |- | 61 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Mexico}} || 8,134 |- | 62 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Argentina}} || 7,725 |- | 63 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Romania}} || 7,523 |- | 64 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Gabon}} || 7,468 |- | 65 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Panama}} || 7,175 |- | 66 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Malaysia}} || 6,950 |- | 67 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Kazakhstan}} || 6,930 |- | 68 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Mauritius}} || 6,704 |- | 69 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Montenegro}}&lt;ref&gt;Population data for Montenegro were obtained by dividing its [http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2010/02/weodata/weorept.aspx?pr.x=30&amp;pr.y=14&amp;sy=2009&amp;ey=2009&amp;scsm=1&amp;ssd=1&amp;sort=country&amp;ds=.&amp;br=1&amp;c=943&amp;s=PPPGDP%2CPPPPC&amp;grp=0&amp;a= PPP GDP by its PPP GDP per capita]. World Economic Outlook Database-October 2010, [[International Monetary Fund]], accessed on October 6, 2010.&lt;/ref&gt; || 6,633 |- | 70 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Botswana}} || 6,437 |- | 71 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Costa Rica}} || 6,345 |- | 72 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Bulgaria}} || 6,223 |- | 73 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Grenada}} || 5,969 |- | 74 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|South Africa}} || 5,824 |- | 75 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Serbia}} || 5,821 |- | 76 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Saint Lucia}} || 5,671 |- | 77 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Suriname}} || 5,662 |- | 78 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Saint Vincent and the Grenadines}} || 5,331 |- | 79 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Colombia}} || 5,167 |- | 80 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Belarus}} || 5,166 |- | 81 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Dominica}} || 4,976 |- | 82 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Dominican Republic}} || 4,816 |- | 83 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Azerbaijan}} || 4,798 |- | 84 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Jamaica}} || 4,684 |- | 85 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Macedonia, Republic of}} || 4,546 |- | 86 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Namibia}} || 4,512 |- | 87 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Iran}} || 4,399 |- | 88 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Bosnia and Herzegovina}} || 4,365 |- | 89 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Peru}} || 4,356 |- | 90 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Angola}} || 4,302 |- | 91 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Jordan}} || 4,199 |- | 92 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Tunisia}} || 4,171 |- | 93 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Maldives}} || 4,154 |- | 94 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Belize}} || 4,115 |- | 95 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Algeria}} || 3,996 |- | 96 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Thailand}} || 3,941 |- | 97 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Ecuador}} || 3,935 |- | 98 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Albania}} || 3,837 |- | 99 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|China, People's Republic of}} || 3,735 |- | 100 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|El Salvador}} || 3,623 |- | 101 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Turkmenistan}} || 3,451 |- | 102 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Fiji}} || 3,337 |- | 103 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Samoa}} || 3,078 |- | 104 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Cape Verde}} || 3,070 |- | 105 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Tonga}} || 3,032 |- | 106 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Kosovo}}&lt;ref&gt;Population data for Kosovo were obtained from the [http://databank.worldbank.org/ddp/home.do?Step=12&amp;id=4&amp;CNO=2 World Development Indicators database], [[World Bank]], accessed on October 6, 2010.&lt;/ref&gt; || 2,984 |- | 107 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Swaziland}} || 2,924 |- | 108 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Morocco}} || 2,882 |- | 109 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Guatemala}} || 2,688 |- | 110 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Guyana}} || 2,671 |- | 111 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Vanuatu}} || 2,643 |- | 112 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Syria}} || 2,615 |- | 113 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Armenia}} || 2,615 |- | 114 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Ukraine}} || 2,569 |- | 115 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Congo, Republic of the}} || 2,557 |- | 116 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Egypt}} || 2,450 |- | 117 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Georgia}} || 2,450 |- | 118 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Indonesia}} || 2,329 |- | 119 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Paraguay}} || 2,265 |- | 120 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Iraq}} || 2,108 |- | 121 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Sri Lanka}} || 2,085 |- | 122 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Honduras}} || 1,911 |- | 123 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Bhutan}} || 1,881 |- | 124 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Philippines}} || 1,748 |- | 125 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Bolivia}} || 1,708 |- | 126 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Mongolia}} || 1,551 |- | 127 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Moldova}} || 1,514 |- | 128 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Sudan}} || 1,397 |- | 129 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Djibouti}} || 1,305 |- | 130 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Kiribati}} || 1,304 |- | 131 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Solomon Islands}} || 1,268 |- | 132 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Papua New Guinea}} || 1,247 |- | 133 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Uzbekistan}} || 1,176 |- | 134 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|São Tomé and Príncipe}} || 1,162 |- | 135 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Cameroon}} || 1,114 |- | 136 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Nigeria}} || 1,112 |- | 137 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Nicaragua}} || 1,071 |- | 138 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Zambia}} || 1,070 |- | 139 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Vietnam}} || 1,068 |- | 140 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Yemen}} || 1,061 |- | 141 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Côte d'Ivoire}} || 1,052 |- | 142 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|India}} || 1,032 |- | 143 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Senegal}} || 998 |- | 144 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Pakistan}} || 989 |- | 145 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Mauritania}} || 975 |- | 146 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Laos}} || 886 |- | 147 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Kyrgyzstan}} || 851 |- | 148 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Kenya}} || 840 |- | 149 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Comoros}} || 806 |- | 150 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Cambodia}} || 768 |- | 151 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Benin}} || 709 |- | 152 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Chad}} || 687 |- | 153 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Tajikistan}} || 667 |- | 154 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Ghana}} || 663 |- | 155 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Haiti}} || 661 |- | 156 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Mali}} || 657 |- | 157 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Lesotho}} || 650 |- | 158 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Bangladesh}} || 583 |- | 159 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Gambia, The}} || 579 |- | 160 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Burma}} || 571 |- | 161 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Burkina Faso}} || 564 |- | 162 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Rwanda}} || 536 |- | 163 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Tanzania}} || 526 |- | 164 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Guinea-Bissau}} || 521 |- | 165 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Afghanistan}} || 501 |- | 166 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Timor-Leste}} || 499 |- | 167 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Uganda}} || 482 |- | 168 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Mozambique}} || 465 |- | 169 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Togo}} || 464 |- | 170 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Nepal}} || 462 |- | 171 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Guinea}} || 451 |- | 172 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Central African Republic}} || 447 |- | 173 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Madagascar}} || 414 |- | 174 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Zimbabwe}} || 394 |- | 175 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Ethiopia}} || 390 |- | 176 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Niger}} || 372 |- | 177 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Eritrea}} || 363 |- | 178 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Malawi}} || 339 |- | 179 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Sierra Leone}} || 326 |- | 180 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Liberia}} || 213 |- | 181 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Congo, Democratic Republic of the}} || 171 |- | 182 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Burundi}} || 164 |} | {| class=&quot;wikitable sortable&quot; style=&quot;margin-left:auto;margin-right:auto;text-align: right&quot; ! Rank ! Country ! [[United States dollar|US$]] |- | 1 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Luxembourg}} || 105,350 |- | 2 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Norway}} || 79,089 |- | 3 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Denmark}} || 55,992 |- | 4 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Ireland}} || 51,049 |- | 5 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Netherlands}} || 47,917 |- | 6 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|United States}} || 46,436 |- | 7 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Austria}} || 46,019 |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | ''{{flag|Faroe Islands}}'' || 45,188 |- | 8 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Finland}} || 44,491 |- | 9 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Sweden}} || 43,654 |- | 10 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Belgium}} || 43,430 |- | 11 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Australia}} || 42,279 |- | 12 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|France}} || 41,051 |- | 13 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Germany}} || 40,873 |- | 14 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Japan}} || 39,727 |- | 15 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Canada}} || 39,599 |- | 16 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Iceland}} || 38,029 |- | 17 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Singapore}} || 36,537 |- | 18 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|United Kingdom}} || 35,165 |- | 19 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Italy}} || 35,084 |- | 20 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Spain}} || 31,774 |- | 21 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Greece}} || 29,240 |- | 22 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|New Zealand}} || 29,000 |- | 23 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Israel}} || 26,175 |- | 24 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Slovenia}} || 23,726 |- | 25 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Portugal}} || 21,414 |- | 26 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Czech Republic}} || 18,139 |- | 27 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Korea, South}} || 17,078 |- | 28 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Slovakia}} || 16,176 |- | 29 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Trinidad and Tobago}} || 15,753 |- | 30 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Equatorial Guinea}} || 15,397 |- | 31 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Saudi Arabia}} || 14,540 |- | 32 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Estonia}} || 14,238 |- | 33 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Croatia}} || 14,222 |- | 34 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Antigua and Barbuda}} || 12,920 |- | 35 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Hungary}} || 12,868 |- | 36 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Latvia}} || 11,616 |- | 37 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Venezuela}} || 11,503 |- | 38 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Poland}} || 11,273 |- | 39 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Lithuania}} || 11,141 |- | 40 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Saint Kitts and Nevis}} || 10,988 |- | 41 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Uruguay}} || 10,790 |- | 42 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Libya}} || 9,714 |- | 43 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Chile}} || 9,645 |- | 44 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Palau}} || 9,345 |- | 45 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Seychelles}} || 8,688 |- | 46 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Russia}} || 8,676 |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | ''{{noflag}}''[[World]]'' || 8,594 |- | 47 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Turkey}} || 8,248 |- | 48 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Lebanon}} || 8,157 |- | 49 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Mexico}} || 8,144 |- | 50 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Brazil}} || 8,114 |- | 51 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Argentina}} || 7,666 |- | 52 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Gabon}} || 7,502 |- | 53 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Romania}} || 7,500 |- | 54 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Panama}} || 7,155 |- | 55 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Malaysia}} || 6,975 |- | 56 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Kazakhstan}} || 6,870 |- | 57 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Mauritius}} || 6,742 |- | 58 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Montenegro}} || 6,546 |- | 59 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Costa Rica}} || 6,382 |- | 60 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Bulgaria}} || 6,210 |- | 61 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Grenada}} || 6,029 |- | 62 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Botswana}} || 5,965 |- | 63 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Serbia}} || 5,819 |- | 64 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|South Africa}} || 5,798 |- | 65 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Saint Lucia}} || 5,496 |- | 66 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Jamaica}} || 5,438 |- | 67 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Saint Vincent and the Grenadines}} || 5,335 |- | 68 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Dominica}} || 5,132 |- | 69 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Belarus}} || 5,069 |- | 70 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Colombia}} || 5,056 |- | 71 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Azerbaijan}} || 4,899 |- | 72 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Dominican Republic}} || 4,618 |- | 73 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Bosnia and Herzegovina}} || 4,546 |- | 74 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Iran}} || 4,540 |- | 75 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Macedonia, Republic of}} || 4,515 |- | 76 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Maldives}} || 4,384 |- | 77 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Peru}} || 4,345 |- | 78 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Namibia}} || 4,338 |- | 79 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Ecuador}} || 4,202 |- | 80 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Algeria}} || 4,029 |- | 81 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Turkmenistan}} || 3,904 |- | 82 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Thailand}} || 3,894 |- | 83 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Jordan}} || 3,829 |- | 84 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Tunisia}} || 3,792 |- | 85 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Albania}} || 3,750 |- | 86 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|China, People's Republic of}} || 3,744 |- | 87 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Angola}} || 3,734 |- | 88 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|El Salvador}} || 3,598 |- | 89 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Fiji}} || 3,573 |- | 90 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Cape Verde}} || 3,064 |- | 91 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Tonga}} || 2,991 |- | 92 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Kosovo}} || 2,965 |- | 93 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Armenia}} || 2,826 |- | 94 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Morocco}}&lt;ref&gt;Includes Former Spanish Sahara.&lt;/ref&gt; || 2,795 |- | 95 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Samoa}} || 2,776 |- | 96 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Vanuatu}} || 2,713 |- | 97 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Guatemala}} || 2,623 |- | 98 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Marshall Islands}} || 2,504 |- | 99 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Swaziland}} || 2,478 |- | 100 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Syria}} || 2,474 |- | 101 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Ukraine}} || 2,468 |- | 102 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Georgia}}&lt;ref&gt;Excludes Abkhazia and South Ossetia.&lt;/ref&gt; || 2,447 |- | 103 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Paraguay}} || 2,365 |- | 104 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Congo, Republic of the}} || 2,361 |- | 105 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Indonesia}} || 2,349 |- | 106 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Micronesia}} || 2,319 |- | 107 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Egypt}} || 2,269 |- | 108 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Iraq}} || 2,090 |- | 109 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Sri Lanka}} || 2,068 |- | 110 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Honduras}} || 1,960 |- | 111 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Bhutan}} || 1,831 |- | 112 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Bolivia}} || 1,758 |- | 113 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Philippines}} || 1,745 |- | 114 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Mongolia}} || 1,573 |- | 115 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Moldova}}&lt;ref&gt;Excludes Transnistria.&lt;/ref&gt; || 1,516 |- | 116 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Kiribati}} || 1,325 |- | 117 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Sudan}} || 1,293 |- | 118 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Solomon Islands}} || 1,257 |- | 119 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Djibouti}} || 1,214 |- | 120 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|São Tomé and Príncipe}} || 1,184 |- | 121 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Uzbekistan}} || 1,182 |- | 122 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Papua New Guinea}} || 1,172 |- | 123 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|India}} || 1,134 |- | 124 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Cameroon}} || 1,119 |- | 125 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Yemen}} || 1,118 |- | 126 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Nicaragua}} || 1,097 |- | 127 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Côte d'Ivoire}} || 1,093 |- | 128 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Nigeria}} || 1,092 |- | 129 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Vietnam}} || 1,052 |- | 130 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Senegal}} || 1,042 |- | 131 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Zambia}} || 985 |- | 132 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Pakistan}} || 981 |- | 133 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Laos}} || 940 |- | 134 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Mauritania}} || 921 |- | 135 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Kyrgyzstan}} || 860 |- | 136 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Lesotho}} || 851 |- | 137 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Comoros}} || 833 |- | 138 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Kenya}} || 759 |- | 139 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Benin}} || 745 |- | 140 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Tajikistan}} || 716 |- | 141 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Mali}} || 691 |- | 142 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Cambodia}} || 677 |- | 143 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Haiti}} || 667 |- | 144 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Ghana}} || 655 |- | 145 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Chad}} || 596 |- | 146 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Bangladesh}} || 551 |- | 147 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Burkina Faso}} || 517 |- | 148 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Tanzania}}&lt;ref&gt;Covers mainland Tanzania only.&lt;/ref&gt; || 509 |- | 149 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Rwanda}} || 506 |- | 150 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Timor-Leste}} || 492 |- | 151 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Uganda}} || 481 |- | 152 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Madagascar}} || 461 |- | 153 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Central African Republic}} || 454 |- | 154 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Togo}} || 431 |- | 155 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Gambia, The}} || 430 |- | 156 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Mozambique}} || 428 |- | 157 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Nepal}} || 427 |- | 158 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Niger}} || 352 |- | 159 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Ethiopia}} || 345 |- | 160 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Sierra Leone}} || 341 |- | 161 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Malawi}} || 326 |- | 162 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Liberia}} || 222 |- | 163 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Congo, Democratic Republic of the}} || 163 |- | 164 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Burundi}} || 160 |} | {| class=&quot;wikitable sortable&quot; style=&quot;margin-left:auto;margin-right:auto;text-align: right&quot; ! Rank ! Country ! [[United States dollar|US$]] ! Year |- | 1 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Liechtenstein}} || 134,400 || 2007 |- | 2 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Luxembourg}} || 104,700 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 3 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Qatar}} || 99,800 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 4 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Norway}} || 81,900 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 5 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Switzerland}} || 64,800 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | ''{{flag|Jersey}}'' || 56,200 || 2005&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 6 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Denmark}} || 56,100 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | ''{{flag|Faroe Islands}}'' || 50,300 || 2008&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 7 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Ireland}} || 49,300 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 8 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Netherlands}} || 47,800 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | ''{{flag|Cayman Islands}}'' || 47,000 || 2008&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 9 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Australia}} || 46,300 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 10 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|United Arab Emirates}} || 46,200 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 11 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Austria}} || 46,100 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 12 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|United States}} || 46,000 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | ''{{flag|Virgin Islands, British}}'' || 45,500 || 2008 |- | 13 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Finland}} || 45,300 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 14 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Belgium}} || 44,800 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 15 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Sweden}} || 44,400 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | ''{{flag|Guernsey}}'' || 42,300 || 2005 |- | 16 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|France}} || 41,600 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 17 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Germany}} || 40,800 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 18 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Kuwait}} || 39,900 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 19 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Japan}} || 39,800 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 20 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Canada}} || 39,600 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | ''{{flag|Macau}}'' || 39,500 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 21 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Iceland}} || 38,900 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 22 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Singapore}} || 37,600 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | ''{{flag|Gibraltar}}'' || 37,500 || 2005&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 23 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Italy}} || 36,400 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | ''{{flag|Isle of Man}}'' || 36,300 || 2005&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 24 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|San Marino}} || 35,900 || 2004 |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | ''{{flag|Falkland Islands}}'' || 35,400 || 2002&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 25 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|United Kingdom}} || 35,000 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | ''{{flag|Greenland}}'' || 34,800 || 2007 |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | ''{{flag|European Union}}'' || 32,900 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 26 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Spain}} || 31,600 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 27 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Greece}} || 30,700 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | ''{{flag|Hong Kong}}'' || 30,000 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 28 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|New Zealand}} || 27,700 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 29 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Bahrain}} || 26,900 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 30 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Israel}} || 26,800 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 31 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Brunei}} || 26,700 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 32 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Slovenia}} || 24,600 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 33 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Bahamas, The}} || 23,600 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | ''{{flag|Aruba}}'' || 23,300 || 2005&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | ''{{flag|French Polynesia}}'' || 22,900 || 2004 |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | ''{{flag|Puerto Rico}}'' || 22,100 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 34 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Cyprus}} || 21,700 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 35 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Portugal}} || 21,300 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 36 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Malta}} || 19,300 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 37 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Czech Republic}} || 18,800 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 38 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Equatorial Guinea}} || 17,900 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | ''{{flag|Guam}}'' || 17,500 || 2001 |- | 39 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Korea, South}} || 17,100 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 40 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Trinidad and Tobago}} || 16,600 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 41 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Taiwan}} ([[Republic of China]]) || 16,400 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 42 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Slovakia}} || 16,100 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | ''{{flag|New Caledonia}}'' || 15,600 || 2003&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 43 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Oman}} || 15,500 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 44 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Saudi Arabia}} || 14,400 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 45 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Croatia}} || 14,100 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 46 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Estonia}} || 14,100 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 47 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Antigua and Barbuda}} || 13,900 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 48 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Cook Islands}}'' || 13,500 || 2005&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 49 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Barbados}} || 12,800 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 50 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Hungary}} || 12,700 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 51 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Venezuela}} || 12,400 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | ''{{flag|Anguilla}}'' || 12,200 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 52 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Latvia}} || 11,700 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 53 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Poland}} || 11,200 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 54 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Saint Kitts and Nevis}} || 11,100 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 55 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Lithuania}} || 10,200 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 56 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Chile}} || 9,600 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 57 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Libya}} || 9,400 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 58 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Uruguay}} || 9,200 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 59 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Mexico}} || 9,100 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | ''{{flag|Northern Mariana Islands}}'' || 9,100 || 2000 |- | 60 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Russia}} || 8,800 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 61 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Seychelles}} || 8,700 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{noflag}}''World''&lt;ref&gt;Note: [[Gross world product]]. The World Factbook, CIA.&lt;/ref&gt; || 8,600 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 62 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Lebanon}} || 8,200 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 63 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Brazil}} || 8,000 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 64 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Palau}} || 7,900 || 2008 |- | 65 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Turkey}} || 7,900 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 66 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Argentina}} || 7,500 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | ''{{flag|American Samoa}}'' || 7,400 || 2005 |- | 67 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Gabon}} || 7,300 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 68 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Romania}} || 7,300 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 69 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Panama}} || 7,200 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 70 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Mauritius}} || 6,800 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 71 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Costa Rica}} || 6,500 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 72 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Kazakhstan}} || 7,000 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 73 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Malaysia}} || 6,800 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 74 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Montenegro}} || 6,700 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 75 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Bulgaria}} || 6,300 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 76 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Saint Lucia}} || 6,000 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 77 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Suriname}} || 6,000 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 78 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Serbia}} || 5,800 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 79 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Botswana}} || 5,700 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 80 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Grenada}} || 5,700 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 81 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|South Africa}} || 5,700 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 82 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Saint Vincent and the Grenadines}} || 5,400 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 83 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Colombia}} || 5,300 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 84 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Angola}} || 5,200 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 85 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Azerbaijan}} || 5,200 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 86 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Dominica}} || 5,100 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 87 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Cuba}} || 4,900 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 88 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Belarus}} || 4,800 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 89 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Dominican Republic}} || 4,700 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | ''{{flag|Niue}}'' || 4,700 || 2003 |- | 90 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Peru}} || 4,400 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 91 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Iran}} || 4,300 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 92 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Macedonia, Republic of}} || 4,300 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 93 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Namibia}} || 4,300 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 94 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Jamaica}} || 4,300 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 95 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Belize}} || 4,200 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 96 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Albania}} || 4,000 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 97 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Algeria}} || 4,000 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 98 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Thailand}} || 3,900 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 99 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Ecuador}} || 3,900 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 100 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Tunisia}} || 3,800 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 101 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Bosnia and Herzegovina}} || 3,700 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 102 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|China, People's Republic of}} || 3,700 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 103 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Jordan}} || 3,600 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 104 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Cape Verde}} || 3,500 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 105 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|El Salvador}} || 3,500 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 106 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Maldives}} || 3,400 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 107 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Turkmenistan}} || 3,300 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 108 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Fiji}} || 3,300 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 109 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Armenia}} || 2,900 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 110 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Morocco}} || 2,900 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 111 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Samoa}} || 2,900 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 112 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Guatemala}} || 2,800 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 113 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Guyana}} || 2,700 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 114 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Marshall Islands}} || 2,600 || 2008&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 115 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Tonga}} || 2,600 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 116 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Ukraine}} || 2,600 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 117 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Vanuatu}} || 2,600 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 118 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Syria}} || 2,500 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 119 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Egypt}} || 2,400 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 120 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Georgia}} || 2,400 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 121 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Congo, Republic of the}} || 2,300 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 122 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Paraguay}} || 2,300 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 123 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Iraq}} || 2,200 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 124 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Micronesia, Federated States of}} || 2,200 || 2008 |- | 125 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Swaziland}} || 2,200 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 126 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Indonesia}} || 2,200 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 127 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Sri Lanka}} || 2,000 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 128 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Honduras}} || 1,900 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 129 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Bolivia}} || 1,800 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 130 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Bhutan}} || 1,800 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 131 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Kosovo}} || 1,800 || 2007 |- | 132 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Philippines}} || 1,700 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | — || align=&quot;left&quot; | ''{{flag|West Bank and Gaza}}'' || 1,700 || 2008 |- | 133 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Tuvalu}} || 1,500 || 2002 |- | 134 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Djibouti}} || 1,400 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 135 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Mongolia}} || 1,400 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 136 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Papua New Guinea}} || 1,400 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 137 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Sudan}} || 1,300 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 138 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Cameroon}} || 1,200 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 139 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Korea, North}} || 1,200 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 140 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Moldova}} || 1,200 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 141 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Yemen}} || 1,200 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 142 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Côte d'Ivoire}} || 1,100 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 143 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Nicaragua}} || 1,100 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 144 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Nigeria}} || 1,100 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 145 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Solomon Islands}} || 1,100 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 146 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Uzbekistan}} || 1,100 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 147 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|India}} || 1,000 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 148 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Kiribati}} || 1,000 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 149 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Mauritania}} || 1,000 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 150 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Pakistan}} || 1,000 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 151 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Vietnam}} || 1,000 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 152 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Zambia}} || 1,000 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 153 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Kyrgyzstan}} || 900 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 154 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|São Tomé and Príncipe}} || 900 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 155 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Senegal}} || 900 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 156 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Cambodia}} || 800 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 157 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Haiti}} || 800 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 158 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Kenya}} || 800 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 159 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Laos}} || 800 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 160 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Lesotho}} || 800 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 161 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Benin}} || 700 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 162 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Chad}} || 700 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 163 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Comoros}} || 700 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 164 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Mali}} || 700 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 165 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Bangladesh}} || 600 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 166 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Burma}} || 600 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 167 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Ghana}} || 600 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 168 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Tajikistan}} || 600 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 169 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Afghanistan}} || 500 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 170 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Burkina Faso}} || 500 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 171 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Rwanda}} || 500 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 172 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Tanzania}} || 500 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 173 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Timor-Leste}} || 500 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 174 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Togo}} || 500 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 175 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Uganda}} || 500 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 176 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Mozambique}} || 500 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 177 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Central African Republic}} || 400 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 178 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Ethiopia}} || 400 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 179 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Gambia, The}} || 400 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 180 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Guinea}} || 400 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 181 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Madagascar}} || 400 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 182 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Nepal}} || 400 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 183 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Sierra Leone}} || 400 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 184 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Niger}} || 400 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 185 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Eritrea}} || 300 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 186 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Guinea-Bissau}} || 300 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 187 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Liberia}} || 300 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 188 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Malawi}} || 300 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 189 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Somalia}} || 300 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 190 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Congo, Democratic Republic of the}} || 200 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |- | 191 || align=&quot;left&quot; | {{flag|Burundi}} || 200 || 2009&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;est.&lt;/small&gt; |} |} ==Notes and references== {{reflist}} {{GDP country lists}} {{Global economic classifications}} [[Category:Lists by economic indicators|GDP (nominal) per capita]] [[Category:Lists of countries by per capita values|GDP]] [[Category:Gross Domestic Product]] [[af:Lys van lande volgens BBP (nominaal) per capita]] [[bg:Страни по БВП (по номинална стойност) на глава от населението]] [[de:Liste der Länder nach Bruttoinlandsprodukt pro Kopf]] [[el:Κατάλογος χωρών κατά κεφαλή ΑΕΠ]] [[es:Anexo:Países por PIB (nominal) per cápita]] [[eo:Listo de landoj laŭ MEP po kapo]] [[fr:Liste des pays par PIB (nominal) par habitant]] [[fi:Luettelo valtioista asukaskohtaisen bruttokansantuotteen (reaali muutoksen) mukaan]] [[gl:Lista de países por PIB nominal per cápita]] [[id:Daftar negara menurut PDB (nominal) per kapita]] [[is:Lönd eftir landsframleiðslu á mann (nafnvirði)]] [[it:Lista di stati per PIL (nominale) procapite]] [[lt:Sąrašas:Šalys pagal BVP gyventojui]] [[ms:Senarai negara mengikut KDNK (nominal) per kapita]] [[nl:Lijst van landen naar BBP per capita]] [[no:Liste over verdens stater etter bruttonasjonalprodukt per innbygger]] [[ko:일인당 명목 국내총생산순 나라 목록]] [[ja:国の国内総生産順リスト (一人当り為替レート)]] [[nds:List vun de Länner na dat Bruttobinnenlandprodukt pro Kopp]] [[pt:Lista de países por PIB nominal per capita]] [[ro:Listă de ţări în funcţie de PIB pe cap de locuitor]] [[te:దేశాల జాబితా – తలసరి నామినల్ జి.డి.పి. క్రమంలో]] [[vi:Danh sách quốc gia theo GDP bình quân đầu người]] [[tr:Ülkelerin kişi başına GSYİH’ya (nominal) göre sıralanışı]] [[zh:各国人均国内生产总值列表 (国际汇率)]]</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Labour_Party_(UK)&diff=394629164</id> <title>Labour Party (UK)</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Labour_Party_(UK)&diff=394629164"/> <updated>2010-11-03T18:30:56Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Reverted edits by 93.97.184.107 (talk) to last version by TFOWR <hr /> <div>{{Redirect|New Labour}} {{Infobox political party |country = the United Kingdom |name = Labour Party |name_native = |logo = [[File:Logo Labour Party.svg|250px|alt=Red on white word &quot;Labour&quot; in sans-serif font to the right of white on red silhouette of a rose.|Labour logo.]] |leader = [[Ed Miliband]] [[Member of Parliament|MP]] |chairman = |leader1_title = Deputy Leader |leader1_name = [[Harriet Harman]] [[Member of Parliament|MP]] |foundation = {{start date|df=yes|1900}} |headquarters = [[Victoria Street, London|39 Victoria Street, London, SW1H 0HA]] |ideology = [[Democratic socialism]] |position = [[Centre-left]] |youth_wing= [[Young Labour (United Kingdom)|Young Labour]] |student_wing= [[Labour Students]] |international = [[Socialist International]] |european = [[Party of European Socialists]] |europarl = [[Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats]] |colours = [[Red]] |website = [http://www.labour.org.uk/ http://www.labour.org.uk/] |colorcode = {{Labour Party (UK)/meta/color}} |seats1_title = [[House of Commons of the United Kingdom|House of Commons]] |seats1 = {{Infobox political party/seats|258|650|hex=#DC241f}} |seats2_title = [[House of Lords]] |seats2 = {{Infobox political party/seats|212|724|hex=#DC241f}} |seats3_title = [[European Parliament]] |seats3 = {{Infobox political party/seats|13|73|hex=#DC241f}} |seats4_title = [[London Assembly]] |seats4 = {{Infobox political party/seats|8|25|hex=#DC241f}} |seats5_title = [[Scottish Parliament]] |seats5 = {{Infobox political party/seats|46|129|hex=#DC241f}} |seats6_title = [[National Assembly for Wales|Welsh Assembly]] |seats6 = {{Infobox political party/seats|26|60|hex=#DC241f}} |seats7_title = [[Local government in the United Kingdom|Local Government]]&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=http://www.gwydir.demon.co.uk/uklocalgov/makeup.htm |title=Local Council Political Compositions |author=Keith Edkins |date=6 May 2010 |work=|publisher=|accessdate=10 May 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=http://www.ark.ac.uk/elections/flg05.htm |title=The 2005 Local Government Elections in Northern Ireland |author=Nicholas Whyte |date=6 May 2010 |work=|publisher=[[Northern Ireland Social and Political Archive]] |accessdate=6 May 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; |seats7 = {{Infobox political party/seats|4831|21871|hex=#DC241f}} }} The '''Labour Party''' is a [[centre-left]] political party in the United Kingdom. Labour surpassed the [[Liberal Party (UK)|Liberal Party]] in general elections during the early 1920s, forming minority governments under [[Ramsay MacDonald]] in [[Labour Government 1924|1924]] and [[Labour Government 1929–1931|1929-1931]]. The party was in a [[Churchill War Ministry|wartime coalition]] from 1940 to 1945, after which it formed a [[1945 Labour Government|majority government]] under [[Clement Attlee]]. Labour was also in government from [[Labour Government 1964–1970|1964 to 1970]] under [[Harold Wilson]] and from [[Labour Government 1974–1979|1974 to 1979]], first under Wilson and then [[James Callaghan]]. The Labour Party was last in government between [[United Kingdom general election, 1997|1997]] and [[United Kingdom general election, 2010|2010]] under [[Tony Blair]] and [[Gordon Brown]], beginning with a majority of 179, reduced to 167 in [[United Kingdom general election, 2001|2001]] and 66 in [[United Kingdom general election, 2005|2005]]. Having won 258 seats in the [[United Kingdom general election, 2010|2010 general election]], Labour is the [[Official Opposition (United Kingdom)|Official Opposition]]. Labour is also the leading partner in the [[Welsh Assembly Government|Welsh Government]], the main opposition party in the [[Scottish Parliament]] and has [[Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats|13 members]] in the [[Party of European Socialists|European Parliament]]. The Labour Party is a member of the [[Socialist International]]. The Party's current leader is [[Ed Miliband]] [[Member of Parliament|MP]]. ==Party ideology== Throughout its history, the Labour Party has usually been thought of as being [[left wing]] or [[centre-left]] in its politics. Officially, it has maintained the stance of being a [[socialism|socialist]] party ever since its inception, currently describing itself as a &quot;[[Clause IV#Blair's fight|democratic socialist party]]&quot;.&lt;ref name =&quot;iqgxtf&quot;&gt;{{cite web|title=Labour Leadership Election 2010|url=http://www2.labour.org.uk/leadership-2010|publisher=Labour Party|accessdate=12 May 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; Nonetheless, throughout its history, it has been criticised by other leftist commentators and historians for not being truly socialist in its policies, instead supporting anti-socialist stances such as [[capitalism]] and [[neo-colonialism]]. The Marxist historians Tony Cliff and Donny Gluckstein for instance described it as a &quot;capitalist workers' party&quot; which &quot;defends the interests of capitalism (particularly when in government) but has the mass support of workers.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;Cliff, Tony and Gluckstein, Donny (1996). ''The Labour Party: A Marxist History'' (Second Edition). London, Chicago and Sydney: Bookmarks. Page 01-02.&lt;/ref&gt; One of the most notable early critics of Labour's claim to be socialist was the [[Marxism|Marxist]] theorist and leader of the [[Soviet Union]], [[Vladimir Lenin]], who, after examining the actions and political positions of its leaders, came to the conclusion that &quot;the only correct point of view [is that] the Labour Party is a thoroughly [[bourgeoisie]] party, because, although made up of workers, it is led by [[reactionary|reactionaries]], and the worst kind of reactionaries at that, who act quite in the spirit of the bourgeoisie, which exists to systematically dupe the workers.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;Lenin, Vladimir (1959). ''On Britain''. London. Page 460-461.&lt;/ref&gt; Historically the party was broadly in favour of socialism, as set out in [[Clause IV|Clause Four]]&lt;ref&gt;http://www.labourcounts.com/clausefour.htm&lt;/ref&gt; of the original party constitution, and advocated socialist policies such as [[public ownership]] of key industries, [[Economic intervention|government intervention]] in the economy, [[Income redistribution|redistribution]] of wealth, increased rights for workers, the [[welfare state]], publicly-funded healthcare and education. Beginning in the late-1980s under the leadership of [[Neil Kinnock]], and subsequently under [[John Smith (UK politician)|John Smith]] and [[Tony Blair]], the party moved away from socialist positions and adopted [[free market]] policies, leading many observers to describe the Labour Party as [[social democracy|Social Democratic]] or [[Third Way (centrism)|Third Way]], rather than democratic socialist.&lt;ref&gt;''New Labour and Thatcherism: Political Change in Britain'', Richard Heffernan, 2001&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;[http://society.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,7884,1013219,00.html New Labour has picked up where Thatcherism left off], [[Stuart Hall (cultural theorist)|Stuart Hall]], The Guardian, 6 August 2003&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.lancs.ac.uk/fss/sociology/papers/jessop-from-thatcherism-to-new-labour.pdf From Thatcherism to New Labour: Neo-Liberalism, Workfarism and Labour Market Regulation], Professor [[Bob Jessop]], Lancaster University&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1467-856X.2006.00227.x?cookieSet=1 New Labour, Economic Reform and the European Social Model], Jonathon Hopkin and [[Daniel Wincott]], British Journal of Politics and International Relations, 2006&lt;/ref&gt; Party electoral manifestos have not contained the term ''socialism'' since 1992, when the original [[Clause IV|Clause Four]] was abolished. The new version states: &quot;The Labour Party is a democratic socialist party. It believes that by the strength of our common endeavour we achieve more than we achieve alone, so as to create for each of us the means to realise our true potential and for all of us a community in which power, wealth and opportunity are in the hands of the many, not the few, where the rights we enjoy reflect the duties we owe, and where we live together, freely, in a spirit of solidarity, tolerance and respect.&quot; ==Party constitution and structure== {{Main|Labour Party Rule Book}} The Labour Party is a membership organisation consisting of [[Constituency Labour Parties]], [[affiliated trade unions]], [[socialist societies]] and the [[Co-operative Party]], with which it has an electoral agreement. Members who are elected to parliamentary positions take part in the [[Parliamentary Labour Party]] (PLP) and European Parliamentary Labour Party (EPLP). The party's decision-making bodies on a national level formally include the [[National Executive Committee]] (NEC), [[Labour Party Conference]] and [[National Policy Forum]] (NPF)—although in practice the Parliamentary leadership has the final say on policy. The 2008 [[Labour Party Conference]] was the first at which affiliated trade unions and Constituency Labour Parties did not have the right to submit motions on contemporary issues that would previously have been debated.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news | title=Anger over 'union debate limit' | url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7002618.stm | publisher=BBC News | date=19 September 2007 | accessdate=13 April 2009}}&lt;/ref&gt; Labour Party conferences now include more &quot;keynote&quot; addresses, guest speakers and question-and-answer sessions, while specific discussion of policy now takes place in the [[National Policy Forum]]. For many years Labour held to a policy of not allowing residents of [[Northern Ireland]] to apply for membership,&lt;ref&gt;{{wayback|www.labour.org.uk/join/form.html|Labour Party membership form}}, ca. 1999. via Internet Archive. Accessed 31 March 2007. &quot;Residents of Northern Ireland are not eligible for membership.&quot;&lt;/ref&gt; instead supporting the [[Social Democratic and Labour Party]] (SDLP).&lt;ref&gt;[http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/politics/docs/alcock.htm Understanding Ulster] by Antony Alcock, Ulster Society Publications, 1997. Chapter II: The Unloved, Unwanted Garrison. Via Conflict Archive on the Internet. Retrieved 31 October 2008.&lt;/ref&gt; The 2003 [[Labour Party Conference]] accepted legal advice that the party could not continue to prohibit residents of the province joining,&lt;ref&gt;[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/3154222.stm Labour NI ban overturned], BBC News. 1 October 2003. Retrieved 31 March 2007.&lt;/ref&gt; and whilst the National Executive has established a regional constituency party it has not yet agreed to contest elections there. The party had 198,026 members on 31 December 2005 according to accounts filed with the [[Electoral Commission (United Kingdom)|Electoral Commission]], which was down on the previous year. In that year it had an income of about £35&amp;nbsp;million (£3.7&amp;nbsp;million from membership fees) and expenditure of about £50&amp;nbsp;million, high due to that year's [[United Kingdom general election, 2005|general election]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/files/dms/LabourSOA31-12-2005_22475-16688__E__N__S__W__.PDF|title=The Labour Party—Financial Statements for 2005|format=PDF}}&lt;/ref&gt; As a party founded by the unions to represent the interests of working-class people, Labour's link with the unions has always been a defining characteristic of the party. In recent years this link has come under increasing strain, with the [[National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers|RMT]] being expelled from the party in 2004 for allowing its branches in Scotland to affiliate to the left-wing [[Scottish Socialist Party]].&lt;ref&gt;[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3432409.stm RMT 'breached' Labour party rules] BBC News, 27 January 2004&lt;/ref&gt; Other unions have also faced calls from members to reduce financial support for the Party&lt;ref&gt;[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3810417.stm Labour's link to unions in danger] BBC News, 16 June 2004&lt;/ref&gt; and seek more effective political representation for their views on privatisation, cuts and the anti-trade union laws.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.congressvoices.org/2009/84-political-representation-of-members/ |title=CWU resolution to TUC Congress 2009 |publisher=TUC Congress Voices|date= |accessdate=13 April 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; Unison and [[GMB (trade union)|GMB]] have both threatened to withdraw funding from constituency MPs and Dave Prentis of [[UNISON]] has warned that the union will write &quot;no more blank cheques&quot; and is dissatisfied with &quot;feeding the hand that bites us&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last=Dunton |first=Jim |url=http://www.lgcplus.com/policy-and-politics/latest-policy-and-politics-news/unison-no-more-blank-cheques-for-labour/5002935.article |title=Unison: &quot;no more blank cheques' for Labour|publisher=Local Government Chronicle |date=17 June 2009|accessdate=13 April 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; Internationally, the Labour Party is a member of the [[Socialist International]] and the [[Party of European Socialists]], while the party's [[Member of the European Parliament|MEPs]] sit in the [[Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats|Socialists &amp; Democrats]] group. ==History== {{Main|History of the British Labour Party|History of socialism in Great Britain}} [[Image:ILP 21st anniversary certificate large.jpg|thumb|The [[Independent Labour Party]], founded in 1893]] ===Founding of the party=== The Labour Party's origins lie in the late 19th century, around which time it became apparent that there was a need for a new political party to represent the interests and needs of the urban proletariat, a demographic which had increased in number and had recently been given [[suffrage|franchise]].&lt;ref&gt;See, for instance, the 1899 [[Lyons vs. Wilkins]] judgement, which limited certain types of picketing&lt;/ref&gt; Some members of the trades union movement became interested in moving into the political field, and after further extensions of the voting franchise in 1867 and 1885, the [[Liberal Party (UK)|Liberal Party]] endorsed some trade-union sponsored candidates. In addition, several small socialist groups had formed around this time, with the intention of linking the movement to political policies. Among these were the [[Independent Labour Party]], the intellectual and largely middle-class [[Fabian Society]], the [[Social Democratic Federation]] and the [[Scottish Labour Party (1888–1893)|Scottish Labour Party]]. In the [[United Kingdom general election, 1895|1895 general election]], the Independent Labour Party put up 28 candidates but won only 44,325 votes. [[Keir Hardie]], the leader of the party, believed that to obtain success in parliamentary elections, it would be necessary to join with other left-wing groups. Hardie's roots as a Methodist lay preacher contributed to an ethos in the party which led to the comment by 1950's General Secretary Morgan Phillips that &quot;Socialism in Britain owed more to Methodism than Marx&quot;&lt;ref&gt;p.131 The Foundations of the British Labour Party by Matthew Worley ISBN 9780754667315&lt;/ref&gt;. ===Labour Representation Committee=== [[Image:jameskeirhardie.jpg|thumb|upright|[[Keir Hardie]], one of the Labour Party's founders and its first leader]] In 1899, a [[Doncaster]] member of the [[Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants]], Thomas R. Steels, proposed in his union branch that the [[Trade Union Congress]] call a special conference to bring together all left-wing organisations and form them into a single body that would sponsor Parliamentary candidates. The motion was passed at all stages by the TUC, and the proposed conference was held at the Memorial Hall on Farringdon Street on 26 and 27 February 1900. The meeting was attended by a broad spectrum of working-class and left-wing organisations&amp;nbsp;— trades unions represented about one third of the membership of the TUC delegates.&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.socialisthistorysociety.co.uk/MORTIMER.HTM ‘The formation of the Labour Party - Lessons for today’] Jim Mortimer, 2000; Jim Mortimer was a General Secretary of the Labour Party in the 1980s&lt;/ref&gt; After a debate, the 129 delegates passed Hardie's motion to establish &quot;a distinct Labour group in Parliament, who shall have their own whips, and agree upon their policy, which must embrace a readiness to cooperate with any party which for the time being may be engaged in promoting legislation in the direct interests of labour.&quot; This created an association called the '''Labour Representation Committee''' (LRC), meant to coordinate attempts to support MPs sponsored by trade unions and represent the working-class population.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.labour.org.uk/history_of_the_labour_party |title=History of the Labour Party |publisher=Labour Party |date=27 February 2010|accessdate=13 April 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; It had no single leader, and in the absence of one, the Independent Labour Party nominee [[Ramsay MacDonald]] was elected as Secretary. He had the difficult task of keeping the various strands of opinions in the LRC united. The [[United Kingdom general election, 1900|October 1900]] &quot;Khaki election&quot; came too soon for the new party to campaign effectively; total expenses for the election only came to £33.&lt;ref&gt;Wright T. &amp; Carter M, (1997) ''&quot;The People's Party&quot;'' Thames &amp; Hudson, ISBN 0-500-27956-x&lt;/ref&gt; Only 15 candidatures were sponsored, but two were successful; [[Keir Hardie]] in [[Merthyr Tydfil (UK Parliament constituency)|Merthyr Tydfil]] and [[Richard Bell (politician)|Richard Bell]] in [[Derby (UK Parliament constituency)|Derby]].&lt;ref name=&quot;A History Of The British Labour Party&quot;&gt;Thorpe, Andrew (2001) ''A History Of The British Labour Party'', Palgrave, ISBN 0-333-92908-x&lt;/ref&gt; Support for the LRC was boosted by the 1901 [[Taff Vale Case]], a dispute between strikers and a railway company that ended with the union being ordered to pay £23,000 damages for a strike. The judgement effectively made strikes illegal since employers could recoup the cost of lost business from the unions. The apparent acquiescence of the Conservative Government of [[Arthur Balfour]] to industrial and business interests (traditionally the allies of the [[Liberal Party (UK)|Liberal Party]] in opposition to the Conservative's landed interests) intensified support for the LRC against a government that appeared to have little concern for the industrial proletariat and its problems.&lt;ref name=&quot;A History Of The British Labour Party&quot;/&gt; [[Image:LabourPartyPlaque.jpg|thumb|left|Labour Party Plaque from Caroone House, 8 Farringdon Street]] In the [[United Kingdom general election, 1906|1906 election]], the LRC won 29 seats—helped by a [[Lib-Lab pact|secret 1903 pact]] between [[Ramsay MacDonald]] and [[Liberal Party (UK)|Liberal]] [[Chief Whip]] [[Herbert John Gladstone(the lib/lab pact), 1st Viscount Gladstone|Herbert Gladstone]] that aimed to avoid splitting the opposition vote between Labour and Liberal candidates in the interest of removing the Conservatives from office.&lt;ref name=&quot;A History Of The British Labour Party&quot;/&gt; In their first meeting after the election the group's Members of Parliament decided to adopt the name &quot;The Labour Party&quot; formally (15 February 1906). Keir Hardie, who had taken a leading role in getting the party established, was elected as Chairman of the Parliamentary Labour Party (in effect, the Leader), although only by one vote over [[David Shackleton]] after several ballots. In the party's early years the [[Independent Labour Party]] (ILP) provided much of its activist base as the party did not have individual membership until 1918 but operated as a conglomerate of affiliated bodies. The [[Fabian Society]] provided much of the intellectual stimulus for the party. One of the first acts of the new Liberal Government was to reverse the Taff Vale judgement.&lt;ref name=&quot;A History Of The British Labour Party&quot;/&gt; ===Early years and the rise of the Labour Party=== The [[United Kingdom general election, December 1910|1910 election]] saw 42 Labour MPs elected to the House of Commons, a significant victory since, a year before the election, the House of Lords had passed the [[Osborne judgment]] ruling that Trades Unions in the United Kingdom could no longer donate money to fund the election campaigns and wages of Labour MPs. The governing Liberals were unwilling to repeal this judicial decision with primary legislation. The height of Liberal compromise was to introduce a wage for Members of Parliament to remove the need to involve the Trade Unions. By 1913, faced with the opposition of the largest Trades Unions, the Liberal government passed the Trade Disputes Act to allow Trade Unions to fund Labour MPs once more. During the First World War the Labour Party split between supporters and opponents of the conflict but opposition to the war grew within the party as time went on. [[Ramsay MacDonald]], a notable anti-war campaigner, resigned as leader of the Parliamentary Labour Party and [[Arthur Henderson]] became the main figure of authority within the party. He was soon accepted into [[H. H. Asquith|Prime Minister Asquith]]'s war cabinet, becoming the first Labour Party member to serve in government. Despite mainstream Labour Party's support for the coalition the [[Independent Labour Party]] was instrumental in opposing conscription through organisations such as the Non-Conscription Fellowship while a Labour Party affiliate, the [[British Socialist Party]], organised a number of unofficial strikes. [[Arthur Henderson]] resigned from the Cabinet in 1917 amid calls for party unity to be replaced by [[George Nicoll Barnes|George Barnes]]. The growth in Labour's local activist base and organisation was reflected in the elections following the war, the [[co-operative]] movement now providing its own resources to the [[Co-operative Party]] after the armistice. The Co-operative Party later reached an electoral agreement with the Labour Party. The [[Communist Party of Great Britain]] was refused affiliation between 1921 and 1923.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/redclyde/redcly140.htm |title=Red Clydeside: The Communist Party and the Labour government [booklet cover&amp;#93; / Communist Party of Great Britain, 1924 |publisher=Glasgow Digital Library|date= |accessdate=13 April 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; Meanwhile the [[Liberal Party (UK)|Liberal Party]] declined rapidly and the party suffered a catastrophic split that allowed the Labour Party to co-opt much of the Liberals' support. With the Liberals in disarray Labour won 142 seats in [[United Kingdom general election, 1922|1922]], making it the second largest political group in the House of Commons and the [[Official Opposition (UK)|official opposition]] to the Conservative government. After the election the now-rehabilitated Ramsay MacDonald was voted the first official [[List of United Kingdom Labour Party leaders|leader of the Labour Party]]. ===First Labour government (1924)=== [[Image:Ramsay MacDonald ggbain.29588.jpg|thumb|upright|[[Ramsay MacDonald]]: First Labour Prime Minister, 1924 and 1929–31]] The [[United Kingdom general election, 1923|1923 general election]] was fought on the Conservatives' [[protectionist]] proposals but, although they got the most votes and remained the largest party, they lost their majority in parliament, necessitating the formation of a government supporting [[free trade]]. Thus, with the acquiescence of Asquith's Liberals, [[Ramsay MacDonald]] became the first ever Labour Prime Minister in January 1924, forming the first Labour government, despite Labour only having 191 MPs (less than a third of the House of Commons). Because the government had to rely on the support of the Liberals it was unable to get any socialist legislation passed by the House of Commons. The only significant measure was the [[Wheatley Housing Act]], which began a building programme of 500,000 homes for rental to working-class families. Legislation on education, unemployment and social insurance were also passed. The government collapsed after only nine months when the Liberals voted for a Select Committee inquiry into the [[Patrick Hastings#Campbell Case|Campbell Case]], a vote which MacDonald had declared to be a vote of confidence. The ensuing [[United Kingdom general election, 1924|general election]] saw the publication, four days before polling day, of the notorious [[Zinoviev letter]], which implicated Labour in a plot for a Communist revolution in Britain. The Conservatives were returned to power although Labour increased its vote from 30.7% to a third of the popular vote, most Conservative gains being at the expense of the Liberals. The Zinoviev letter is now known to have been a forgery.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article1819658.ece|title=The truth about Churchill's spy chief and the Zinoviev Letter|work=The Independent |location=UK | location=London | first=Francis | last=Elliott | date=8 October 2006 | accessdate=7 May 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; In opposition Ramsay MacDonald continued his policy of presenting the Labour Party as a moderate force. During the [[UK General Strike of 1926|General Strike of 1926]] he opposed strike action, arguing that the best way to achieve social reforms was through the ballot box. ===Second Labour government (1929–1931)=== [[Image:Oldlabour2.png|thumb|upright|The original &quot;Liberty&quot; logo, in use until 1983]] In the [[United Kingdom general election, 1929|1929 general election]], the Labour Party became the largest in the House of Commons for the first time, with 287 seats and 37.1% of the popular vote. However MacDonald was still reliant on Liberal support to form a minority government. MacDonald went on to appoint Britain's first female cabinet minister, [[Margaret Bondfield]], who was appointed [[Secretary of State for Employment|Minister of Labour]]. The government, however, soon found itself engulfed in crisis: the [[Wall Street Crash of 1929]] and eventual [[Great Depression in the United Kingdom|Great Depression]] occurred soon after the government came to power, and the crisis hit Britain hard. By the end of 1930 unemployment had doubled to over two and a half million.&lt;ref name=&quot;To Build A New Jerusalem&quot;&gt;Davies, A.J. (1996) ''To Build A New Jerusalem: The British Labour Party from Keir Hardie to Tony Blair'', Abacus, ISBN&lt;/ref&gt; The government had no effective answers to the crisis. By the summer of 1931 a dispute over whether or not to reduce public spending had split the government. As the economic situation worsened MacDonald agreed to form a &quot;[[National Government (UK)|National Government]]&quot; with the [[Conservative Party (UK)|Conservatives]] and the [[The Liberal Party (UK)|Liberals]]. On 24 August 1931 MacDonald submitted the resignation of his ministers and led a small number of his senior colleagues in forming the National Government together with the other parties. This caused great anger among those within the Labour Party who felt betrayed by MacDonald's actions: he and his supporters were promptly expelled from the Labour Party but went on to form a separate [[National Labour Organisation]], the remaining Labour Party (again led by [[Arthur Henderson]]) and a few Liberals going into opposition. The [[United Kingdom general election, 1931|ensuing general election]] resulted in overwhelming victory for the National Government and disaster for the Labour Party which won only 52 seats, 225 fewer than in 1929. ===In opposition during the 1930s=== [[Arthur Henderson]], elected in 1931 to succeed MacDonald, lost his seat in the [[UK general election, 1931|1931 general election]]. The only former Labour cabinet member who had retained his seat, the pacifist [[George Lansbury]], accordingly became party leader. The party experienced another split in 1932 when the [[Independent Labour Party]], which for some years had been increasingly at odds with the Labour leadership, opted to disaffiliate from the Labour Party and embarked on a long, drawn-out decline. Lansbury resigned as leader in 1935 after public disagreements over foreign policy. He was promptly replaced as leader by his deputy, [[Clement Attlee]], who would lead the party for two decades. The party experienced a revival in the [[United Kingdom general election, 1935|1935 general election]], winning 154 seats and 38% of the popular vote, the highest that Labour had achieved. As the threat from [[Nazi Germany]] increased in the 1930s the Labour Party gradually abandoned its earlier pacifist stance and supported re-armament, largely due to the efforts of [[Ernest Bevin]] and [[Hugh Dalton]] who by 1937 had also persuaded the party to oppose [[Neville Chamberlain]]'s policy of [[appeasement]].&lt;ref name=&quot;To Build A New Jerusalem&quot;/&gt; ===Wartime coalition (1940-1945)=== The party returned to government in 1940 as part of the [[Coalition Government|wartime coalition]]. When [[Neville Chamberlain]] resigned in the spring of 1940, incoming-[[Prime Minister of the United Kingdom|Prime Minister]] [[Winston Churchill]] decided to bring the other main parties into a coalition similar to that of the First World War. Clement Attlee was appointed [[Lord Privy Seal]] and a member of the war cabinet, eventually becoming the United Kingdom's first [[Deputy Prime Minister]]. A number of other senior Labour figures also took up senior positions; the trade union leader [[Ernest Bevin]], as [[Secretary of State for Employment|Minister of Labour]], directed Britain's wartime economy and allocation of manpower, the veteran Labour statesman [[Herbert Morrison]] became [[Home Secretary]], [[Hugh Dalton]] was [[Minister of Economic Warfare]] and later [[President of the Board of Trade]], while [[A. V. Alexander, 1st Earl Alexander of Hillsborough|A. V. Alexander]] resumed the role he had held in the previous Labour Government as [[First Lord of the Admiralty]]. ===Post-war victory under Attlee=== [[Image:Attlee BW cropped.jpg|thumb|upright|[[Clement Attlee]]: Labour Prime Minister, 1945–51]] At the end of the war in Europe, in May 1945, Labour resolved not to repeat the Liberals' error of 1918 but promptly withdrew from government to contest the [[United Kingdom general election, 1945|1945 general election]] in opposition to Churchill's Conservatives. Surprising many observers,&lt;ref name=BBCreport&gt;{{cite news|url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/26/newsid_3572000/3572175.stm|title=1945: Churchill loses general election|publisher=BBC News|date=26 July 1945|accessdate=22 February 2009}}&lt;/ref&gt; Labour won a formidable victory, winning just under 50% of the vote with a majority of 145 seats. Clement Attlee's proved one of the most radical British governments of the 20th century, presiding over a policy of nationalising major industries and utilities including the [[Bank of England]], coal mining, the steel industry, electricity, gas, telephones and inland transport including railways, road haulage and canals. It developed and implemented the &quot;cradle to grave&quot; [[welfare state]] conceived by the economist [[William Beveridge]]. To this day the party considers the 1948 creation of Britain's publicly funded [[National Health Service]] under health minister [[Aneurin Bevan]] its proudest achievement.&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.labour.org.uk/proud/proud_to_be_labour Proud of the NHS at 60] Labour Party, Retrieved 15 March 2010&lt;/ref&gt; Attlee's government also began the process of dismantling the [[British Empire]] when it granted independence to India and Pakistan in 1947, followed by Burma (Myanmar) and Ceylon (Sri Lanka) the following year. At a secret meeting in January 1947, Attlee and six cabinet ministers, including Foreign Secretary [[Ernest Bevin]], decided to proceed with the development of Britain's [[Nuclear weapons and the United Kingdom|nuclear weapons programme]],&lt;ref name=&quot;To Build A New Jerusalem&quot;/&gt; in opposition to the pacifist and anti-nuclear stances of a large element inside the Labour Party. Labour went on to win the [[United Kingdom general election, 1950|1950 general election]] but with a much reduced majority of five seats. Soon afterwards defence became a divisive issues within the party, especially defence spending (which reached a peak of 14% of GDP in 1951 during the [[Korean War]]),&lt;ref&gt;Clark, Sir George, ''Illustrated History Of Great Britain'', (1987) Octupus Books&lt;/ref&gt; straining public finances and forcing savings elsewhere. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, [[Hugh Gaitskell]], introduced charges for NHS prescription drugs causing Bevan, along with [[Harold Wilson]] (then President of the Board of Trade), to resign over the dilution of the principle of free treatment on which the NHS had been established. In the [[United Kingdom general election, 1951|1951 general election]], Labour narrowly lost to the Conservatives despite receiving the larger share of the popular vote, its highest ever vote numerically. Most of the changes introduced by the 1945–51 Labour government were accepted by the Conservatives and became part of the &quot;post war consensus&quot; that lasted until the late 1970s. ===Opposition during the 1950s=== Following the defeat of 1951 the party underwent a long period of thirteen years in opposition. The party suffered an ideological split during the 1950s while the postwar economic recovery, given the social effects of Attlee's reforms, made the public broadly content with the Conservative governments of the time. Attlee remained as leader until his retirement in 1955. His replacement [[Hugh Gaitskell]], a man associated with the right-wing of the party, struggled to deal with internal divisions in the late 1950s and early 1960s and Labour lost the [[United Kingdom general election, 1959|1959 general election]]. In 1963 Gaitskell's sudden death from a heart-attack made way for [[Harold Wilson]] to lead the party. ===Labour in government under Wilson (1964–1970)=== A down-turn in the economy along with a series of scandals in the early 1960s (the most notorious being the [[Profumo affair]]) engulfed the Conservative government by 1963. The Labour Party returned to government with a 4-seat majority under Wilson in the [[United Kingdom general election, 1964|1964 election]] but increased its majority to 96 in the [[United Kingdom general election, 1966|1966 election]]. [[Image:Dodwilson.JPG|thumb|upright|left|[[Harold Wilson]]: Labour Prime Minister, 1964–1970 and 1974-1976]] Wilson's government was responsible for a number of sweeping social and educational reforms such as the legalisation of abortion and homosexuality (initially only for men aged 21 or over). The 1960s Labour government also expanded [[comprehensive education]] and created the [[Open University]]. But Wilson's government had inherited a large trade deficit that led to a currency crisis and an ultimately doomed attempt to stave off devaluation of the pound. Labour went on to lose the [[United Kingdom general election, 1970|1970 election]] to the Conservatives under [[Edward Heath]]. ===In opposition (1970-1974)=== After losing the 1970 general election, Labour returned to opposition, but retained Harold Wilson as Leader. Heath's government soon ran into trouble over [[Northern Ireland]] and a dispute with miners in 1973 which led to the &quot;[[three-day week]]&quot;. The 1970s proved a difficult time to be in government for both the Conservatives and Labour due to the [[1973 oil crisis]] which caused high inflation and a global recession. The Labour Party was returned to power again under Wilson a few weeks after the [[United Kingdom general election, February 1974|February 1974 general election]], forming a minority government with the support of the [[Ulster Unionist]]s. The Conservatives were unable to form a government as they had fewer seats despite receiving more votes numerically. It was the first general election since 1924 in which both main parties had received less than 40% of the popular vote and the first of six successive general elections in which Labour failed to reach 40% of the popular vote. In a bid to gain a proper majority, a second election was soon called for [[United Kingdom general election, October 1974|October 1974]] in which Labour, still with Harold Wilson as leader, managed a majority of three, gaining just 18 seats and taking its total to 319. ===Return to government (1974-1979)=== [[Image:James Callaghan.JPG|thumb|upright|[[James Callaghan]]: Labour Prime Minister, 1976-1979]] For much of its time in office the Labour government struggled with serious economic problems and a precarious majority in the Commons, while the party's internal dissent over Britain's membership of the [[European Economic Community]] (EEC), which Britain had entered under Edward Heath in 1972, led in 1975 to a [[United Kingdom European Communities membership referendum, 1975|national referendum]] on the issue in which two thirds of the public supported continued membership. Harold Wilson's personal popularity remained reasonably high but he unexpectedly resigned as Prime Minister in 1976, citing health reasons and was replaced by [[James Callaghan]]. The Wilson and Callaghan governments of the 1970s tried to control inflation (which reached 23.7% in 1975&lt;ref name=&quot;SeldonHickson2004&quot;&gt;{{cite book|author1=Anthony Seldon|author2=Kevin Hickson|title=New Labour, old Labour: the Wilson and Callaghan governments, 1974-79|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=Gmy8wS1bBZwC&amp;pg=PA64|accessdate=29 October 2010|year=2004|publisher=Routledge|isbn=9780415312813|pages=64–}}&lt;/ref&gt;) by a policy of wage restraint. This was fairly successful, reducing inflation to 7.4% by 1978.&lt;ref name=&quot;SeldonHickson2004&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;A History Of The British Labour Party&quot;/&gt; However it led to increasingly strained relations between the government and the trade unions. Fear of advances by the nationalist parties, particularly in Scotland, led to the suppression of a [[McCrone report|report from Scottish Office economist Gavin McCrone]] that suggested that an independent Scotland would be 'chronically in surplus'&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.snpyouth.org/ysi/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=12&amp;Itemid=24 |title=Young Scots For Independence - Revealed: True oil wealth hidden to stop independence |publisher=SNP Youth|date=12 September 2005 |accessdate=13 April 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt;. By 1977 by-election losses and defections to the breakaway [[Scottish Labour Party (1976)|Scottish Labour Party]] left Callaghan heading a minority government, forced to trade with smaller parties in order to govern. An arrangement negotiated in 1977 with [[Liberal Party (UK)|Liberal]] leader [[David Steel]], known as the [[Lib-Lab Pact]], ended after one year. After this deals were forged with various small parties including the [[Scottish National Party]] and the Welsh nationalist [[Plaid Cymru]], prolonging the life of the government slightly. The nationalist parties, in turn, demanded [[devolution]] to their respective constituent countries in return for their supporting the government. When referenda for Scottish and Welsh devolution were held in March 1979 [[Welsh devolution referendum, 1979|Welsh devolution]] was rejected outright while the [[Scottish devolution referendum, 1979|Scottish referendum]] returned a narrow majority in favour without reaching the required threshold of 40% support. When the Labour government duly refused to push ahead with setting up the proposed Scottish Assembly, the SNP withdrew its support for the government: this finally brought the government down as it triggered a vote of confidence in Callaghan's government that was lost by a single vote on 28 March 1979, necessitating a general election. Callaghan had been widely expected to call a general election in the autumn of 1978 when most opinion polls showed Labour to have a narrow lead.&lt;ref name=&quot;A History Of The British Labour Party&quot;/&gt; However he decided to extend his wage restraint policy for another year hoping that the economy would be in a better shape for a 1979 election. But during the winter of 1978-79 there were widespread strikes among lorry drivers, railway workers, car workers and local government and hospital workers in favour of higher pay-rises that caused significant disruption to everyday life. These events came to be dubbed the &quot;[[Winter of Discontent]]&quot;. In the [[United Kingdom general election, 1979|1979 election]] Labour suffered electoral defeat by the [[Conservative Party (UK)|Conservatives]], now led by [[Margaret Thatcher]]. The number of people voting Labour hardly changed between February 1974 and 1979 but in 1979 the Conservative Party achieved big increases in support in the Midlands and South of England, benefiting from both a surge in turnout and votes lost by the ailing Liberals. ===The &quot;Wilderness Years&quot; (1979–1997)=== After its defeat in the 1979 election the Labour Party underwent a period of internal rivalry between the left-wing, represented by [[Michael Foot]] and [[Tony Benn]], and the right-wing represented by [[Denis Healey]]. The election of Michael Foot as leader in 1980 led in 1981 to four former cabinet ministers from the right of the Labour Party ([[Shirley Williams]], [[William Rodgers]], [[Roy Jenkins]] and [[David Owen]]) forming the [[Social Democratic Party (UK)|Social Democratic Party]]. The Labour Party was defeated heavily in the [[United Kingdom general election, 1983|1983 general election]], winning only 27.6% of the vote, its lowest share since [[United Kingdom general election, 1918|1918]], and receiving only half a million votes more than the [[SDP-Liberal Alliance]] who leader Michael Foot condemned for &quot;siphoning&quot; Labour support and enabling the Conservatives to win more seats.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/9/newsid_2500000/2500847.stm |title=1983: Thatcher wins landslide victory |publisher=BBC News |date=9 June 1983 |accessdate=13 April 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Old Logo Labour Party.svg|thumb|upright|right|Labour Party logo under Kinnock, Smith and Blair's leaderships]] Michael Foot resigned and was replaced as leader by [[Neil Kinnock]] who was elected on 2 October 1983 and progressively moved the party towards the centre. Labour improved its performance in [[United Kingdom general election, 1987|1987]], gaining 20 seats and so reducing the Conservative majority from 143 to 102. They were now firmly established as the second political party in Britain as the Alliance had once again failed to make a breakthrough with seats and it subsequently collapsed, prompting a merger of the SDP and Liberals to form the [[Liberal Democrats]]. Following the 1987 election, Kinnock began expelling [[Militant Tendency]] members from the party. They would later form the [[Socialist Party of England and Wales]] and the [[Scottish Socialist Party]] although a remnant of Militant continues to operate within the Labour Party through the newspaper ''[[Socialist Appeal]]''.&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.socialist.net/britain-nightmare-downing-street120503.htm Britain: Nightmare on Downing Street - Time to reclaim the Labour Party] Socialist Appeal, 12 May 2003&lt;/ref&gt; In November 1990, Margaret Thatcher resigned as prime minister and was succeeded by [[John Major]]. Most opinion polls had shown Labour comfortably ahead of the Tories for more than a year before Mrs Thatcher's resignation, with the fall in Tory support blamed largely on the introduction of the unpopular [[poll tax]], combined with the fact that the economy was [[Early 1990s recession|sliding into recession]] at the time. One of the reasons Mrs Thatcher gave for her resignation was that she felt the Tories would stand a better chance of re-election with a new leader at the helm. The change of leader in the Tory government saw a turnaround in support for the Tories, who regularly topped the opinion polls throughout 1991 although Labour regained the lead more than once. The &quot;yo yo&quot; in the opinion polls continued into 1992, though after November 1990 any Labour lead in the polls was rarely sufficient for a majority. The election on 9 April 1992 was widely tipped to result in a hung parliament, but in the event the Conservatives were returned to power, though with a much reduced majority of 21 in [[United Kingdom general election, 1992|1992]].&lt;ref&gt;[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/basics/election4/past_elections/4393317.stm 1992: Tories win again against odds] BBC News, 5 April 2005&lt;/ref&gt; Despite the increased number of seats and votes, it was still an incredibly disappointing result for members and supporters of the Labour party, and for the first time in over 30 years there was serious doubt among the public and the media as to whether Labour could ever return to government. Kinnock then resigned as leader and was replaced by [[John Smith (UK politician)|John Smith]]. The [[Black Wednesday]] economic disaster in September 1992 left the Conservative government's reputation for monetary excellence in tatters, and by the end of that year Labour had a comfortable lead over the Tories in the opinion polls. Although the recession was declared over in April 1993 and a period of strong and sustained economic growth followed, coupled with a relatively swift fall in unemployment, the Labour lead in the opinion polls remained strong. However, Smith died from a heart attack in May 1994.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news| url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/basics/4393323.stm | work=BBC News | title=1997: Labour landslide ends Tory rule | date=15 April 2005}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===&quot;New Labour&quot; - in government (1997–2010)=== &lt;!-- [[New Labour]] is a redirect to this section. --&gt; {{Main|Blair-Brown government|Premiership of Tony Blair|Premiership of Gordon Brown}} Tony Blair continued to move the party further to the centre, abandoning the largely symbolic [[Clause IV|Clause Four]] at the 1995 mini-conference in a strategy to increase the party's appeal to &quot;[[middle England]]&quot;. More than a simple re-branding, however, the project would draw upon a new political [[third way (centrism)|third way]], particularly informed by the thought of the British sociologist [[Anthony Giddens]]. &quot;New Labour&quot; was first termed as an alternative branding for the Labour Party, dating from a conference slogan first used by the Labour Party in 1994, which was later seen in a draft manifesto published by the party in 1996, called ''[[New Labour, New Life For Britain]]''. It was a continuation of the trend that had begun under the leadership of [[Neil Kinnock]]. &quot;New Labour&quot; as a name has no official status, but remains in common use to distinguish modernisers from those holding to more traditional positions, normally referred to as &quot;Old Labour&quot;. [[Image:TonyBlairBasra.JPG|thumb|upright|[[Tony Blair]]: Labour Prime Minister, 1997-2007]] [[Image:GordonBrown1234 cropped .jpg|thumb|upright|[[Gordon Brown]]: Labour Prime Minister, 2007-2010]] 'New Labour is a party of ideas and ideals but not of outdated ideology. What counts is what works. The objectives are radical. The means will be modern.'&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.labour-party.org.uk/manifestos/1997/1997-labour-manifesto.shtml|title=new Labour because Britain deserves better|publisher=Labour-Party.org.uk}}&lt;/ref&gt; The Labour Party won the [[United Kingdom general election, 1997|1997 general election]] with a landslide majority of 179; it was the largest Labour majority ever, and the largest swing to a political party achieved since [[UK general election, 1945|1945]]. Among the early acts of Tony Blair's government were the establishment of the [[national minimum wage]], the [[devolution]] of power to Scotland, Wales and [[Northern Ireland]], and the re-creation of a city-wide government body for London, the [[Greater London Authority]], with its own elected-[[Mayor of London|Mayor]]. Combined with a Conservative opposition that had yet to organise effectively under [[William Hague]], and the continuing popularity of Blair, Labour went on to win the [[United Kingdom general election, 2001|2001 election]] with a similar majority, dubbed the &quot;quiet landslide&quot; by the media.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/christmas/6873367/QI-Our-Quite-Interesting-Quiz-of-the-Decade-compiled-by-the-elves-from-the-TV-show.html|title=QI: Our Quite Interesting Quiz of the Decade, compiled by the elves from the TV show|work=The Daily Telegraph|date=26 December 2009|accessdate=14 May 2010| first1=John | last1=Mitchinson | first2=Justin | last2=Pollard | first3=Molly | last3=Oldfield | first4=Andy | last4=Murray | location=London}}&lt;/ref&gt; A perceived turning point was when Tony Blair controversially allied himself with US President [[George W. Bush]] in supporting the [[Iraq War]], which caused him to lose much of his political support.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,745536,00.html |title=European Opposition To Iraq War Grows &amp;#124; Current Affairs |publisher=Deutsche Welle |date=13 January 2003 |accessdate=13 April 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[Kofi Annan|UN Secretary-General]], among many, considered the war illegal.&lt;ref&gt;[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3661134 BBC News]{{Dead link|date=April 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; The Iraq War was deeply unpopular in most western countries, with Western governments divided in their support&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last=Bennhold |first=Katrin |url=http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/08/28/sochi_ed3_.php |title=Unlikely alliance built on opposition to Iraq war now raises questions - NYTimes.com |work=International Herald Tribune |date=28 August 2004 |accessdate=13 April 2010}} {{Dead link|date=October 2010|bot=H3llBot}}&lt;/ref&gt; and under pressure from [[Protests against the Iraq War|worldwide popular protests]]. At the [[United Kingdom general election, 2005|2005 election]], Labour was re-elected for a third term, but with a reduced majority of 66. The decisions that led up to the Iraq war and its subsequent conduct are currently the subject of [[Sir John Chilcot|Sir John Chilcot's]] [[The Iraq Inquiry|Iraq Inquiry]]. [[Image:Labour Party.svg|thumb|left|upright|Current logo of the Labour Party]] Tony Blair announced in September 2006 that he would quit as leader within the year, though he had been under pressure to quit earlier than May 2007 in order to get a new leader in place before the May elections which were expected to be disastrous for Labour.&lt;ref&gt;[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5322094.stm I will quit within a year - Blair] BBC News, 7 September 2007&lt;/ref&gt; In the event, the party did lose power in Scotland to a minority [[Scottish National Party]] government at the [[Scottish Parliament election, 2007|2007 elections]] and, shortly after this, Tony Blair resigned as Prime Minister and was replaced by his [[Chancellor of the Exchequer|Chancellor]], [[Gordon Brown]]. Although the party experienced a brief rise in the polls after this, its popularity soon slumped to its lowest level since the days of [[Michael Foot]]. During May 2008, Labour suffered heavy defeats in the [[London mayoral election, 2008|London mayoral election]], [[United Kingdom local elections, 2008|local elections]] and the loss in the [[Crewe and Nantwich by-election, 2008|Crewe and Nantwich by-election]], culminating in the party registering its worst ever opinion poll result since records began in 1943, of 23%, with many citing Brown's leadership as a key factor.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |first=Jeremy |last=Lovell |authorlink= |author=|coauthors= |title=Brown hit by worst party rating |url=http://uk.reuters.com/article/wtMostRead/idUKL2944559620080530 |publisher=Reuters |date=30 May 2008|accessdate=28 June 2008}}&lt;/ref&gt; Finance proved a major problem for the Labour Party during this period; a &quot;[[cash for peerages]]&quot; scandal under Tony Blair resulted in the drying up of many major sources of donations. Declining party membership, partially due to the reduction of activists' influence upon policy-making under the reforms of Neil Kinnock and Tony Blair, also contributed to financial problems. Between January and March 2008, the Labour Party received just over £3&amp;nbsp;million in donations and were £17&amp;nbsp;million in debt; compared to the Conservatives' £6&amp;nbsp;million in donations and £12&amp;nbsp;million in debt.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/news-and-media/news-releases/electoral-commission-media-centre/news-releases-donations/new-figures-published-showing-political-partiesrsquo-donations-and-borrowing|title=New figures published showing political parties’ donations and borrowing|date=22 May 2008|publisher=[[Electoral Commission (United Kingdom)|The Electoral Commission]]|accessdate=2 July 2008}}&lt;/ref&gt; In the [[United Kingdom general election, 2010|2010 general election]] on 6 May that year, Labour with 29.0% of the vote won the second largest number of seats (258). The Conservatives with 36.5% of the vote won the largest number of seats (307), but [[hung parliament|no party had an overall majority]], meaning that Labour could still remain in power if they managed to form a coalition with at least one smaller party.&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/may/07/uk-election-results-data-candidates-seats UK election results: data for every candidate in every seat] The Guardian, 7 May 2010&lt;/ref&gt; On 10 May 2010, after talks to form a coalition with the [[Liberal Democrats]] broke down, Gordon Brown announced his intention to stand down as Leader before the [[Labour Party Conference]] but a day later resigned as both [[Prime Minister of the United Kingdom|Prime Minister]] and party leader.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/gordon-brown-to-resign-as-labour-leader-1970273.html|title=Gordon Brown to resign as Labour leader|date=10 May 2010|work=The Independent|accessdate= | location=London | first1=Trevor | last1=Mason | first2=Jon | last2=Smith}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===In opposition (2010-present)=== [[Harriet Harman]] became the [[Leader of the Opposition (United Kingdom)|Leader of the Opposition]] and the Leader of the Labour Party following the resignation of Gordon Brown on 11 May 2010, pending a [[Labour Party (UK) leadership election, 2010|leadership election]]&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news| url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8676333.stm | work=BBC News | title=Harman made acting Labour leader | date=11 May 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; subsequently won by [[Ed Miliband]]. ==Electoral performance== [[Image:Popular vote.jpg|thumb|A graph showing the percentage of the popular vote received by major parties in general elections, 1832-2005. The rapid rise of the Labour Party after its founding during the Victorian era is clear, and the party is now considered as one of the dominant forces in British politics]] {| class=&quot;sortable wikitable&quot; |- | align=center|'''Election''' | '''Number of votes for Labour''' | '''Share of votes''' | '''Seats''' | align=center|'''Outcome of election''' |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, 1900|1900]] | align=center|62,698 | align=center|1.8% | align=center|2 | align=left|Conservative Victory |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, 1906|1906]] | align=center|321,663 | align=center|5.7% | align=center|29 | align=left|Liberal Victory |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, January 1910|1910 (January)]] | align=center|505,657 | align=center|7.6% | align=center|40 | align=left|Hung parliament (Liberal minority government) |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, December 1910|1910 (December)]] | align=center|371,802 | align=center|7.1% | align=center|42 | align=left|Hung parliament (Liberal minority government) |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, 1918|1918]]&lt;sup&gt;†&lt;/sup&gt; | align=center|2,245,777 | align=center|21.5% | align=center|57 | align=left|Coalition Victory |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, 1922|1922]] | align=center|4,076,665 | align=center|29.7% | align=center|142 | align=left|Conservative Victory |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, 1923|1923]] | align=center|4,267,831 | align=center|30.7% | align=center|191 | align=left|Hung parliament ('''Labour minority government''') |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, 1924|1924]] | align=center|5,281,626 | align=center|33.3% | align=center|151 | align=left|Conservative Victory |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, 1929|1929]]&lt;sup&gt;‡&lt;/sup&gt; | align=center|8,048,968 | align=center|37.1% | align=center|287 | align=left|Hung parliament ('''Labour minority government''') |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, 1931|1931]] | align=center|6,339,306 | align=center|30.8% | align=center|52 | align=left|National Government Victory |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, 1935|1935]] | align=center|7,984,988 | align=center|38.0% | align=center|154 | align=left|National Government Victory |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, 1945|1945]] | align=center|11,967,746 | align=center|49.7% | align=center|393 | align=left|'''Labour Victory''' |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, 1950|1950]] | align=center|13,266,176 | align=center|46.1% | align=center|315 | align=left|'''Labour Victory''' |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, 1951|1951]] | align=center|13,948,883 | align=center|48.8% | align=center|295 | align=left|Conservative Victory |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, 1955|1955]] | align=center|12,405,254 | align=center|46.4% | align=center|277 | align=left|Conservative Victory |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, 1959|1959]] | align=center|12,216,172 | align=center|43.8% | align=center|258 | align=left|Conservative Victory |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, 1964|1964]] | align=center|12,205,808 | align=center|44.1% | align=center|317 | align=left|'''Labour Victory''' |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, 1966|1966]] | align=center|13,096,629 | align=center|48.0% | align=center|364 | align=left|'''Labour Victory''' |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, 1970|1970]] | align=center|12,208,758 | align=center|43.1% | align=center|288 | align=left|Conservative Victory |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, February 1974|1974 (February)]] | align=center|11,645,616 | align=center|37.2% | align=center|301 | align=left|Hung parliament ('''Labour minority government''') |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, October 1974|1974 (October)]] | align=center|11,457,079 | align=center|39.2% | align=center|319 | align=left|'''Labour Victory''' |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, 1979|1979]] | align=center|11,532,218 | align=center|36.9% | align=center|269 | align=left|Conservative Victory |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, 1983|1983]] | align=center|8,456,934 | align=center|27.6% | align=center|209 | align=left|Conservative Victory |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, 1987|1987]] | align=center|10,029,807 | align=center|30.8% | align=center|229 | align=left|Conservative Victory |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, 1992|1992]] | align=center|11,560,484 | align=center|34.4% | align=center|271 | align=left|Conservative Victory |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, 1997|1997]] | align=center|13,518,167 | align=center|43.2% | align=center|419 | align=left|'''Labour Victory''' |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, 2001|2001]] | align=center|10,724,953 | align=center|40.7% | align=center|413 | align=left|'''Labour Victory''' |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, 2005|2005]] | align=center|9,562,122 | align=center|35.3% | align=center|356 | align=left|'''Labour Victory''' |- | align=center|[[United Kingdom general election, 2010|2010]] | align=center|8,601,441 | align=center|29.1% | align=center|258 | align=left| Hung parliament (Conservative/Lib Dem coalition) |} &lt;sup&gt;†&lt;/sup&gt;''The first election held under the [[Representation of the People Act 1918]] in which all men over 21, and most women over the age of 30 could vote, and therefore a much larger electorate'' &lt;sup&gt;‡&lt;/sup&gt;''The first election under [[universal suffrage]] in which all women aged over 21 could vote'' ==Leaders of the Labour Party since 1906== &lt;!-- Several articles link to this section --&gt; {{Main|Leader of the Labour Party (UK)}} *[[Keir Hardie]], 1906–1908 *[[Arthur Henderson]], 1908–1910 *[[George Nicoll Barnes]], 1910–1911 *[[Ramsay MacDonald]], 1911–1914 *[[Arthur Henderson]], 1914–1917 *[[William Adamson]], 1917–1921 *[[John Robert Clynes]], 1921–1922 *[[Ramsay MacDonald]], 1922–1931 *[[Arthur Henderson]], 1931–1932 *[[George Lansbury]], 1932–1935 *[[Clement Attlee]], 1935–1955 *[[Hugh Gaitskell]], 1955–1963 *[[George Brown, Baron George-Brown|George Brown]], 1963 &lt;sup&gt;†&lt;/sup&gt; *[[Harold Wilson]], 1963–1976 *[[James Callaghan]], 1976–1980 *[[Michael Foot]], 1980–1983 *[[Neil Kinnock]], 1983–1992 *[[John Smith (UK politician)|John Smith]], 1992–1994 *[[Margaret Beckett]], 1994 &lt;sup&gt;†&lt;/sup&gt; *[[Tony Blair]], 1994–2007 *[[Gordon Brown]], 2007–2010 *[[Harriet Harman]], 2010 &lt;sup&gt;†&lt;/sup&gt; *[[Ed Miliband]], 2010 - present &lt;sup&gt;†&lt;/sup&gt;''Although these were technically leaders of the Labour Party, they only assumed this role because of the death or resignation of the incumbent and were not elected to the post. They were in effect acting temporary leaders. [[Margaret Beckett]] was deputy leader when leader [[John Smith (UK politician)|John Smith]] unexpectedly died, and she automatically became leader as a result of his death. Similarly, [[George Brown, Baron George-Brown|George Brown]], who became leader after the death of [[Hugh Gaitskell]], had been deputy leader at the time of Gaitskell's death. [[Harriet Harman]] was deputy leader when [[Gordon Brown]] resigned the leadership in the wake of his May 2010 election defeat, and she too became leader automatically and remained leader while the Labour Party went through the process of electing a new leader.''&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite document|url=http://www.savethelabourparty.org/labourpartyrulebook2008.pdf|title=Labour Party Rule Book 2008|publisher=The Labour Party|quote=&quot;When the party is in opposition and the party leader, for whatever reason, becomes permanently unavailable, the deputy leader shall automatically become party leader on a pro-tem basis.&quot;|accessdate=12 May 2010|postscript=&lt;!--None--&gt;}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Deputy Leaders of the Labour Party since 1922== {{Main|Deputy Leader of the Labour Party (UK)}} *[[John Robert Clynes]], 1922–1932 *[[William Graham (Scottish politician)|William Graham]], 1931–1932 *[[Clement Attlee]], 1932–1935 *[[Arthur Greenwood]], 1935–1945 *[[Herbert Morrison]], 1945–1955 *[[Jim Griffiths]], 1955–1959 *[[Aneurin Bevan]], 1959–1960 *[[George Brown, Baron George-Brown|George Brown]], 1960–1970 *[[Roy Jenkins]], 1970–1972 *[[Edward Short, Baron Glenamara|Edward Short]], 1972–1976 *[[Michael Foot]], 1976–1980 *[[Denis Healey]], 1980–1983 *[[Roy Hattersley]], 1983–1992 *[[Margaret Beckett]], 1992–1994 *[[John Prescott]], 1994–2007 *[[Harriet Harman]], 2007–present ==Leaders of the Labour Party in the House of Lords since 1924== *[[Richard Haldane, 1st Viscount Haldane]], 1924–1928 *[[Charles Cripps, 1st Baron Parmoor]], 1928–1931 *[[Arthur Ponsonby, 1st Baron Ponsonby of Shulbrede]], 1931–1935 *[[Harry Snell, 1st Baron Snell]], 1935–1940 *[[Christopher Addison, 1st Viscount Addison]], 1940–1952 *[[William Jowitt, 1st Earl Jowitt]], 1952–1955 *[[Albert Victor Alexander, 1st Earl Alexander of Hillsborough]], 1955–1964 *[[Frank Pakenham, 7th Earl of Longford]], 1964–1968 *[[Edward Shackleton, Baron Shackleton]], 1968–1974 *[[Malcolm Shepherd, 2nd Baron Shepherd]], 1974–1976 *[[Fred Peart, Baron Peart]], 1976–1982 *[[Cledwyn Hughes, Baron Cledwyn of Penrhos]], 1982–1992 *[[Ivor Richard, Baron Richard]], 1992–1998 *[[Margaret Jay, Baroness Jay of Paddington]], 1998–2001 *[[Gareth Williams, Baron Williams of Mostyn]], 2001–2003 *[[Valerie Amos, Baroness Amos]], 2003–2007 *[[Catherine Ashton, Baroness Ashton of Upholland]], 2007–2008 *[[Janet Royall, Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]], 2008–present ==Labour Prime Ministers== {| class=&quot;sortable wikitable&quot; |- ! [[Name]] ! [[Portrait]] ! [[Country|Country of birth]] ! [[History of the British Labour Party|Periods in Office]] |- | [[Ramsay MacDonald]] | [[Image:Ramsay MacDonald ggbain.29588.jpg|60px]] | Scotland | [[1924 vote of no confidence against the government of Stanley Baldwin|1924]]; [[UK general election, 1929|1929]]-[[National Government (United Kingdom)#The crisis of 1931|1931]] |- | [[Clement Attlee]] | [[Image:Attlee BW cropped.jpg|60px]] | England | [[UK general election, 1945|1945]]–[[UK general election, 1950|1950]]; [[UK general election, 1950|1950]]-[[UK general election, 1951|1951]] |- | [[Harold Wilson]] | [[Image:Dodwilson.JPG|60px]] | England | [[UK general election, 1964|1964]]-[[UK general election, 1966|1966]]; [[UK general election, 1966|1966]]-[[UK general election, 1970|1970]]; [[UK general election, February 1974|1974]]; [[UK general election, October 1974|1974]]-[[Labour Party (UK) leadership election, 1976|1976]] |- | [[James Callaghan]] | [[Image:James Callaghan.JPG|60px]] | England | [[Labour Party (UK) leadership election, 1976|1976]]-[[UK general election, 1979|1979]] |- | [[Tony Blair]] | [[Image:TonyBlairBasra.JPG|60px]] | Scotland | [[UK general election, 1997|1997]]-[[UK general election, 2001|2001]]; [[UK general election, 2001|2001]]-[[UK general election, 2005|2005]]; [[UK general election, 2005|2005]]-[[Labour Party (UK) leadership election, 2007|2007]] |- | [[Gordon Brown]] | [[Image:GordonBrown1234 cropped .jpg|60px]] | Scotland | [[Labour Party (UK) leadership election, 2007|2007]]-[[UK general election, 2010|2010]] |} ==International linkages== The party was a member of the [[Labour and Socialist International]] between 1923 and 1940.&lt;ref&gt;Kowalski, Werner. ''[http://books.google.com/books?id=83QdPwAACAAJ Geschichte der sozialistischen arbeiter-internationale: 1923 - 19]'' Berlin: Dt. Verl. d. Wissenschaften, 1985&lt;/ref&gt; It is currently, and since 1951, member of the [[Socialist International]], which was founded thanks to the efforts of the Clement Attlee leadership. ==See also== {|width=100% |- valign=top |width=33%| *[[Labour Co-operative]] *[[History of British Socialism]] *[[Labour leadership election]] *[[List of organisations associated with the British Labour Party]] *[[List of Labour Party (UK) MPs]] *[[Labour Party|List of other Labour Parties]] *[[Politics of the UK]] *[[Young Labour (United Kingdom)|Young Labour]] |width=33%| *[[Welsh Labour]] *[[Scottish Labour Party]] *[[Liberal Democrats]] *[[Conservative Party (UK)|Conservative Party]] *[[Socialist Party (England and Wales)]] *[[Socialist Labour Party (UK)]] *[[Labour Students]] *[[List of UK Labour Party general election manifestos]] |} ==References== {{Reflist|2}} ==Further reading== {{Refbegin|2}} * Davies, A.J, ''To Build A New Jerusalem'' (1996) ISBN * Stephen Driver and Luke Martell, ''New Labour: Politics after Thatcherism'', Polity Press, 1998 and 2006 * Geoffrey Foote, ''The Labour Party's Political Thought: A History'', Macmillan, 1997 ed. * Martin Francis, ''Ideas and Policies under Labour 1945–51'', [[Manchester University Press]], 1997. ISBN * [[Roy Hattersley]], ''[[New Statesman]]'', 10 May 2004, [http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FQP/is_4687_133/ai_n6152909 'We should have made it clear that we too were modernisers'] * David Howell, ''British Social Democracy'', Croom Helm, 1976 * David Howell, ''MacDonald's Party'', Oxford University Press, 2002 * Ralph Miliband, ''Parliamentary Socialism'', Merlin, 1960, 1972, ISBN * Kenneth O. Morgan, ''Labour in Power, 1945-51'', [[OUP]], 1984 * Kenneth O. Morgan, ''Labour People: Leaders and Lieutenants, Hardie to Kinnock'' [[OUP]], 1992, ISBN *Henry Pelling and Alastair J. Reid, ''A Short History of the Labour Party'', Palgrave Macmillan, 2005 ed. ISBN * [[Ben Pimlott]], ''Labour and the Left in the 1930s'', [[Cambridge University Press]], 1977. * Raymond Plant, Matt Beech and Kevin Hickson (2004), ''The Struggle for Labour's Soul: understanding Labour's political thought since 1945'', Routledge, ISBN * [[Clive Ponting]], ''Breach of Promise, 1964-70'', Penguin, 1990, ISBN * Greg Rosen, ''Dictionary of Labour Biography''. [[Politicos Publishing]], 2001, ISBN * Greg Rosen, ''Old Labour to New'', [[Politicos Publishing]], 2005, ISBN *Eric Shaw, ''The Labour Party since 1979: Crisis and Transformation'', Routledge, 1994 *Andrew Thorpe, ''A History of the British Labour Party'', Palgrave Macmillan, 2008, ISBN * Phillip Whitehead, ''The Writing on the Wall'', [[Penguin Group|Michael Joseph]], 1985 * Patrick Wintour and Colin Hughes, ''Labour Rebuilt'', [[Fourth Estate]], 1990 * [[John Pilger]], [[Freedom Next Time]], Bantam Press, 2006, ISBN {{Refend}} ==External links== {{Commons category|Labour Party (UK)}} ===Official party sites=== *[http://www.labour.org.uk Labour] *[http://www.scottishlabour.org.uk/ Scottish Labour] *[http://www.welshlabour.org.uk/ Welsh Labour] *[http://www.glalabour.com/ London Assembly Labour] *[http://www.labour.org.uk/younglabour/ Young Labour] - Party youth wing *[http://www.labourpartyni.org/ Labour Party in Northern Ireland] *[http://www.labourinwestminster.org.uk/ Labour Party in Westminster] ===Other=== *[http://www.labour-party.org.uk Unofficial website with an archive of electoral manifestos and a directory of related websites] *[http://www.labourhome.org Labourhome - unofficial Labour Party grassroots] *[http://www.labourhistory.org.uk Labour History Group website] *[http://labhist.tripod.com Unofficial history website] *[http://politics.guardian.co.uk/labour Guardian Unlimited Politics—Special Report: Labour Party] *[http://www.newstin.co.uk/uk/labour-party Labour Party aggregated news (multilingual)] *[http://www.phm.org.uk Labour History Archive and Study Centre holds archives of the National Labour Party] *{{fr icon}} {{cite news | title=Déroute historique des travaillistes |work=L'Humanité | date=5 May 2008 | url=http://www.humanite.fr/2008-05-05_International_Deroute-historique-des-travaillistes}} ({{en icon}} Translation accessible on [http://www.humaniteinenglish.com/article939.html www.humaniteinenglish.com]) {{UK Labour Party}} {{British political parties}} {{Party of European Socialists}} {{United Kingdom general election, 2010}} {{Use dmy dates|date=September 2010}} {{Use British English|date=September 2010}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Labour Party (Uk)}} [[Category:Democratic socialism]] [[Category:Edwardian era]] [[Category:Labour parties]] [[Category:Labour Party (UK)| ]] [[Category:Party of European Socialists member parties]] [[Category:Political parties established in 1900]] [[Category:Second International]] [[Category:Social democratic parties]] [[Category:Social democratic parties in the United Kingdom]] [[Category:Socialist International]] [[af:Arbeidersparty (Verenigde Koninkryk)]] [[ar:حزب العمال البريطاني]] [[zh-min-nan:Lô-tōng Tóng (Liân-ha̍p Ông-kok)]] [[br:Strollad Labour breizhveurat]] [[bg:Лейбъристка партия]] [[ca:Partit Laborista (Regne Unit)]] [[cs:Labouristická strana]] [[cy:Y Blaid Lafur (DU)]] [[da:Labour]] [[de:Labour Party]] [[et:Leiboristlik Partei]] [[el:Εργατικό κόμμα (Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο)]] [[es:Partido Laborista (Reino Unido)]] [[eo:Brita Laborista Partio]] [[eu:Erresuma Batuko Alderdi Laborista]] [[fa:حزب کارگر (بریتانیا)]] [[fr:Parti travailliste (Royaume-Uni)]] [[gl:Partido Laborista (Reino Unido)]] [[ko:노동당 (영국)]] [[id:Partai Buruh (Britania Raya)]] [[is:Verkamannaflokkurinn (Bretlandi)]] [[it:Partito Laburista (Regno Unito)]] [[he:מפלגת הלייבור הבריטית]] [[ka:ლეიბორისტული პარტია (გაერთიანებული სამეფო)]] [[kw:Parti Lavur]] [[la:Factio Laboris (Britanniarum Regnum)]] [[lb:Labour Partei (Groussbritannien)]] [[lt:Leiboristų partija]] [[hu:Munkáspárt (Egyesült Királyság)]] [[nl:Labour Party (Verenigd Koninkrijk)]] [[new:लेबर पार्टि]] [[ja:労働党 (イギリス)]] [[no:Labour Party]] [[nn:Det britiske arbeidarpartiet]] [[pl:Partia Pracy (Wielka Brytania)]] [[pt:Partido Trabalhista (Reino Unido)]] [[ro:Partidul Laburist (Regatul Unit)]] [[ru:Лейбористская партия (Великобритания)]] [[sco:Labour Pairty (UK)]] [[simple:Labour Party (UK)]] [[sh:Laburistička stranka (UK)]] [[fi:Työväenpuolue (Yhdistynyt kuningaskunta)]] [[sv:Labour Party]] [[th:พรรคแรงงาน (สหราชอาณาจักร)]] [[tr:İşçi Partisi (Britanya)]] [[uk:Лейбористська партія (Великобританія)]] [[vi:Đảng Lao động Anh]] [[zh:工党 (英国)]]</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:122.179.31.55&diff=394606594</id> <title>User talk:122.179.31.55</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:122.179.31.55&diff=394606594"/> <updated>2010-11-03T16:16:01Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Added welcome template to user talk page using TW <hr /> <div> == Welcome == &lt;!-- Template:Welcomelaws --&gt; ;Welcome! Hello and [[Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers|welcome]] to [[Wikipedia]]. Thank you for [[Special:Contributions/122.179.31.55|your contributions]]. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. The following links will help you begin editing on Wikipedia: *[[Wikipedia:Five pillars|The Five Pillars of Wikipedia]] *[[Wikipedia:How to edit a page|How to edit a page]] *[[Wikipedia:Tutorial|Editing tutorial]] *[[Wikipedia:Picture tutorial|Picture tutorial]] *[[Wikipedia:How to write a great article|How to write a great article]] *[[Wikipedia:Naming conventions|Naming conventions]] *[[Wikipedia:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] ;Please bear these points in mind while editing Wikipedia: * '''[[Wikipedia:Copyrights|Respect copyrights]]''' – do not copy and paste text or images directly from other websites. * Maintain a '''[[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|neutral point of view]]''' – this is possibly the most important Wikipedia policy. * Take particular care while adding biographical material about a '''[[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons|living person]]''' to any Wikipedia page to follow '''[[WP:BLP|Wikipedia's Biography of Living Persons]]' policy'''. Particularly, controversial and negative statements should be [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|referenced]] with multiple [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable sources]]. * No '''[[Wikipedia:edit warring|edit warring]]''' and '''[[Wikipedia:Sockpuppetry|sockpuppetry]]'''. * If you are testing, please use the '''[[Wikipedia:Sandbox|Sandbox]]''' to [{{fullurl:Wikipedia:Sandbox|action=edit}} do so]. * Do not add troublesome content to any [[Wikipedia:What is an article|article]], such as: [[copyright]]ed text, [[Wikipedia:Libel|libel]], advertising or promotional messages, and text that is not related to an article's subject. Deliberately adding such content or otherwise editing articles maliciously is considered [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]], doing so will result your account or IP being [[WP:BLOCK|blocked from editing]]. The [[Wikipedia:Tutorial|Wikipedia Tutorial]] is a good place to start learning about Wikipedia. If you have any questions, see the [[Wikipedia:Help|help pages]], add a question to the [[Wikipedia:village pump|village pump]] or ask me on [[User talk:TFOWR{{!}}my talk page]]. By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and discussion pages using four tildes, like this: &amp;#126;&amp;#126;&amp;#126;&amp;#126; (the software will replace them with your signature and the date). Again, welcome! [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 16:16, 3 November 2010 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War&diff=394606557</id> <title>War</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War&diff=394606557"/> <updated>2010-11-03T16:15:51Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Reverted good faith edits by 122.179.31.55 (talk); Thanks for self-reverting, but you (a) missed one, and (b) messed up the capitalisation. (TW) <hr /> <div>{{dablink|This article is about the social phenomenon. For other uses, see [[War (disambiguation)]]. &quot;Warring&quot; redirects here. For other uses, see [[Warring (disambiguation)]].}} {{War}} '''War''' is a phenomenon of organized [[violence|violent]] [[conflict]],&lt;ref name=AHD&gt;[http://www.thefreedictionary.com/War American Heritage Dictionary: War]&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=MWD&gt;[http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/war Merriam Webster's Dictionary: War]&lt;/ref&gt; typified by extreme [[aggression]], [[societal]] disruption and adaptation, and high [[mortality]].&lt;ref name=AHD /&gt; The [[military objective|objective of warfare]] differs in accord with a group's role in a conflict: The goals of [[offensive (military)|offensive warfare]] are typically the [[submission]], [[assimilation]] or [[destruction]] of another group, while the goals of [[defense (military)|defensive warfare]] are simply the [[repulsion]] of the offensive force and, often, ''[[survival]]'' itself. Relative to each other, combatants in warfare are called ''[[enemies]].'' The terms ''[[military]], [[militant]],'' and ''[[militarism]]'' each refer to fundamental aspects of war, i.e. ''the organized group, the combative individual,'' and the ''supportive ethos'' (respectively). As a behavioral pattern, war is found exhibited by many [[primate]] species&lt;ref&gt; {{cite web | url = http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3317461/Apes-of-war...-is-it-in-our-genes.html | title= Apes of war... is it in our genes? | accessdate = 2010-02-06 | work=The Daily Telegraph | location=London | first=Sanjida | last=O'Connell | date=2004-01-07}} Analysis of chimpanzee war behaviour &lt;/ref&gt; including [[human]]s, and also found in many [[ant]] species.&lt;ref name = &quot;AntsLandmines&quot;&gt;{{cite web | year = 1996 | url = http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=935783 | title= Warrior Ants: The Enduring Threat of the Small War and the Land-mine | accessdate = 2010-02-03}} Scholarly comparisons between human and ant wars &lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name = &quot;AntPacification&quot;&gt;{{cite web | year = 2010 | url = http://www.antcolonies.net/howantscarryonwar.html | title= How Ants Carry on War | accessdate = 2010-02-03}} Ant war pacification experiments &lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name = &quot;AntParallels&quot;&gt;{{cite web | year = 1998 | url = http://jlibsch.web.wesleyan.edu/Ant/Morphology/index.html | title= The Ant: A Morphological Tour... | accessdate = 2010-02-03}} Brief discussion of parallels between humans and ants &lt;/ref&gt; The primary feature of this behaviour pattern is a certain state of organized conflict that is engaged in between two or more separate social entities. Such a conflict is always an attempt at altering either the [[psychological]] hierarchy or the material hierarchy of domination or equality between two or more groups. In all cases, at least one participant (group) in the conflict perceives the need to either psychologically or materially dominate the other participant. == Overview == Amongst humans, the perceived need for domination often arises from the belief that either an ideology is so incompatible, or a resource is so scarce, as to threaten the fundamental existence of the one group experiencing the need to dominate the other group. Leaders will sometimes enter into a war under the pretext that their actions are primarily defensive, though when viewed objectively, their actions may more closely resemble a form of unprovoked, unwarranted, or disproportionate [[aggression]]. In all wars, the group(s) experiencing the need to dominate other group(s) are unable or unwilling to accept or permit the possibility of a ''relationship of fundamental equality'' to exist between the groups who have opted for group violence (war). The aspect of domination that is a precipitating factor in all wars, i.e. one group wishing to dominate another, is also often a precipitating factor in individual one-on-one violence outside of the context of war, i.e. one individual wishing to dominate another.&lt;ref name = &quot;ViolenceSame&quot;&gt;{{cite web | year = 2009 | url = http://miraclevision.com/miracle.vision.press/the-path-to-extreme-violence.pdf | title= The P ath to Extreme Violence:Nazism and Serial Killers | accessdate = 2010-02-06}} Analysis of common roots of violence between Nazis and serial killers. &lt;/ref&gt; In 2003, Nobel Laureate [[Richard Smalley|Richard E. Smalley]] identified war as the sixth (of ten) biggest problems facing the society of mankind for the next fifty years. In the 1832 book ''&quot;[[On War]]&quot;'', by Prussian military general and theoretician [[Carl von Clausewitz|Carl Von Clausewitz]], the author refers to war as the &quot;continuation of [[diplomacy|political]] intercourse, carried on with other means.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;Clausewitz, Carl Von (1976), On War (Princeton University Press) p.87&lt;/ref&gt; War is an interaction in which two or more opposing forces have a “struggle of wills”.&lt;ref&gt;Clausewitz, Carl Von (1976) p.77&lt;/ref&gt; The term is also used as a metaphor for non-military conflict, such as in the example of [[Class conflict|class war]]. War has generally been considered to be a seemingly inescapable and integral aspect of human culture, its practice not linked to any single type of political organization or society. Rather, as discussed by [[John Keegan]] in his ''History Of Warfare'', war is a universal phenomenon whose form and scope is defined by the society that wages it.&lt;ref&gt;Keegan, John, (1994) &quot;A History Of Warfare&quot;, (Pimlico)&lt;/ref&gt; The conduct of war extends along a continuum, from the almost universal primitive local tribal warfare that began well before recorded human history, to advanced nuclear warfare between global alliances, with the recently developed ultimate potential for [[human extinction]]. More recently, other experts [[Douglas P. Fry]] and [[Judith Hand]] have argued that war only emerges in certain types of societies or cultures, being rare or absent, for example, in nomadic foragers societies and becoming common when humans take up settled living, particularly at the Agricultural Revolution. ==Etymology and scope== From late [[Old English]] (c.1050), wyrre, werre, from [[Old Norman dialect|Old Norman]] werre &quot;war&quot; (cf. French guerre), from [[Franks|Frankish]] *werra, from [[Proto-Germanic]] *werzó (Compare with [[Old Saxon]] werran, [[Old High German|Old high German]] werran, German verwirren &quot;to confuse, perplex&quot;), from [[Proto-Indo-European language|Proto-Indo-European]] *wers- &quot;to mix up, confuse, thrash&quot;. Cognates suggest the original sense was &quot;to bring into confusion.&quot; There was no common [[Germanic languages|Germanic]] word for &quot;war&quot; at the dawn of historical times. [[Spanish people|Spanish]], [[Portuguese people|Portuguese]], [[Italy|Italian]] guerra are from the same source; Romanic peoples turned to [[Germanic languages|Germanic]] for a word to avoid [[Latin]] &quot;bellum&quot; because its form tended to merge with bello- &quot;beautiful.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=war&amp;searchmode=none|title=Online Etymology Dictionary|accessdate=2009-06-05}}&lt;/ref&gt; In an organized military sense, a group of combatants and their support is called an [[army]] on land, a [[navy]] at sea, and an [[air force]] in the air. Wars may be conducted simultaneously in one or more different [[theater (warfare)|theaters]]. Within each theater, there may be one or more consecutive [[military campaign]]s. A military campaign includes not only fighting but also [[Intelligence (information gathering)|intelligence]], troop movements, supplies, [[propaganda]], and other components. A period of continuous intense conflict is traditionally called a [[battle]], although this terminology is not always applied to conflicts involving aircraft, missiles or bombs alone, in the absence of ground troops or naval forces. Also many other actions may be undertaken by military forces during a war, this could include weapons research, internment, [[assassination]], occupation, and in some cases [[genocide]] may occur. A [[civil war]] is a war between factions of citizens within one country (such as in the [[English Civil War]]), or else a dispute between two nations that were created out of one formerly united country. A [[proxy war]] is a war that results when two powers use third parties as substitutes for fighting each other directly. ==History of warfare== {{Main|History of war}} [[File:War deaths caused by warfare.svg|thumb|right|350px|Comparison of the percentage of male deaths caused by warfare in eight tribal societies and Europe and the US in the 20th century. The share of war deaths was many times higher in tribal societies. By archeologist [[Lawrence H. Keeley]].]] Before the dawn of history war likely consisted of small-scale raiding. One half of the people found in a [[Nubia]]n cemetery dating to as early as 12,000 years ago had died of [[violence]].&lt;ref&gt;Keeley: ''War before civilization: The myth of the peaceful savage''&lt;/ref&gt; Since the rise of the state some 5,000 years ago,&lt;ref&gt;Diamond, Jared, Guns, Germs and Steel&lt;/ref&gt; military activity has occurred over much of the globe. The advent of gunpowder and the acceleration of technological advances led to modern warfare. In the European medieval period, war was considered part of the set of ''[[mechanic arts|seven mechanical arts]]''. [[File:Napoleons retreat from moscow.jpg|thumb|200px|Napoleon retreating from Moscow after a disastrous [[French invasion of Russia]].]] In ''[[War Before Civilization]]'', Lawrence H. Keeley, a professor at the [[University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign|University of Illinois]], says that approximately 90–95% of known societies throughout history engaged in at least occasional warfare,&lt;ref name=&quot;Keeley&quot;&gt;[http://brneurosci.org/reviews/war.html Review: War Before Civilization]&lt;/ref&gt; and many fought constantly.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/HG04Aa02.html|title=The fraud of primitive authenticity|last=Spengler|date=4 July 2006|work=Asia Times Online|accessdate=2009-06-08}}&lt;/ref&gt; Despite the undeniable carnage and effectiveness of modern warfare, the evidence shows that [[tribal warfare]] is on average 20 times more deadly than 20th century warfare.&lt;ref name=&quot;Keeley&quot;/&gt; At one battle lost in 1857 among the [[Mohave people|Mohave]]-[[Yumas]], 49.6% of combatants were killed; in a great [[Aztec]] battle fought in 1478, 87.1% of 24,000 combatants were killed, while 100% of combatants were killed during the [[Blackfoot]] Indian raid which annihilated the [[Assiniboin]]s in 1849.&lt;ref&gt;&quot;''[http://books.google.com/books?id=nMMAk4VwLLwC&amp;pg=PA12&amp;dq&amp;hl=en#v=onepage&amp;q=&amp;f=false Genocide: a history]''&quot;. W. D. Rubinstein (2004). p.12. ISBN 0-582-50601-8&lt;/ref&gt; The [[Human Security Report 2005]] documented a significant decline in the number and severity of armed conflicts since the end of the [[Cold War]] in the early 1990s. However, the evidence examined in the 2008 edition of the Center for International Development and Conflict Management's &quot;Peace and Conflict&quot; study indicated that the overall decline in conflicts had stalled.&lt;ref&gt;Hewitt, Joseph, J. Wilkenfield and T. nevertheless the concept war is more than just a word but a signification to the meaning Death. Gurr ''[http://www.cidcm.umd.edu/pc/ Peace and Conflict 2008]'', Paradigm Publishers, 2007&lt;/ref&gt; Recent rapid increases in the technologies of war, and therefore in its potential destructiveness (see [[Mutual assured destruction]]), have caused widespread public concern, and have in all probability forestalled, and may hopefully altogether prevent the outbreak of a nuclear World War III. At the end of each of the last two World Wars, concerted and popular efforts were made to come to a greater understanding of the underlying dynamics of war and to thereby hopefully reduce or even eliminate it all together. These efforts materialized in the forms of the [[League of Nations]], and its successor, the [[United Nations]]. Shortly after World War II, as a token of support for this concept, most nations joined the United Nations. During this same post-war period, with the aim of further delegitimizing war as an acceptable and logical extension of foreign policy, most national governments also renamed their Ministries or Departments of War as their Ministries or Departments of Defense, for example, the former US Department of War was renamed as the US Department of Defense. In 1947, in view of the rapidly increasingly destructive consequences of and costs of the newly developed [[atom bomb]], the initial developer of the concept of this bomb, [[Albert Einstein]] famously stated, ''&quot;I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.&quot;''&lt;ref name = &quot;EinsteinWWIV&quot;&gt;{{cite web | year = 1947 | url = http://www.wagingpeace.org/menu/action/urgent-actions/einstein/ | title= Albert Einstein: Man of Imagination | accessdate = 2010-02-03}} Nuclear Age Peace Foundation paper &lt;/ref&gt; Fortunately, the anticipated costs of a possible third world war are currently no longer deemed as acceptable by most, thus little motivation currently seems to exist on an international level for such a war.{{Citation needed|date=November 2010}} &lt;div class=&quot;center&quot;&gt; &lt;gallery perrow=&quot;5&quot;&gt; File:Schlacht am Weißen Berg C-K 063.jpg|[[Battle of White Mountain]], 1620, an early battle in the [[Thirty Years' War]]. File:Crossingtherhine.jpg|USA's Army [[89th Infantry Division (United States)|89th Infantry Division]] [[Operation Plunder|cross the Rhine River]] in assault boats, 1945. &lt;/gallery&gt; &lt;/div&gt; ==Motivations== Motivations for war may be different for those ordering the war than for those undertaking the war. For a state to prosecute a war it must have the support of its leadership, its military forces, and its people. For example, in the [[Third Punic War]], [[Rome]]'s leaders may have wished to make war with [[Carthage]] for the purpose of eliminating a resurgent rival, while the individual soldiers may have been motivated by a wish to make money. Since many people are involved, a war may acquire a life of its own from the confluence of many different motivations. The Jewish [[Talmud]] describes in the BeReshit Rabbah commentary on the fight between [[Cain and Abel]] (Parashot BeReshit XXII:7) that there are three universal reasons for wars: A) Economic, B) Ideological/religious, and C) Power/pride/love (personal).&lt;ref name = &quot;MidrashQuote&quot;&gt;{{cite web | year = 2008 | url = http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/728352/Rabbi_David_Horwitz/Parashat_Bereshit:_The_Conflict_between_Cain_and_Abel | title= The Conflict between Cain and Abel | accessdate = 2010-02-07}} Analysis of Midrash re: Cain &amp; Abel &lt;/ref&gt; In ''Why Nations Go to War'', by [[John G. Stoessinger]], the author points out that both sides will claim that morality justifies their fight. He also states that the rationale for beginning a war depends on an overly optimistic assessment of the outcome of hostilities ([[casualties]] and costs), and on [[Fundamental attribution error|misperceptions of the enemy's intentions]]. As the strategic and tactical aspects of warfare are always changing, theories and doctrines relating to warfare are often reformulated before, during, and after every major war. Carl Von Clausewitz said, 'Every age had its own kind of war, its own limiting conditions, and its own peculiar preconceptions.'&lt;ref&gt;Clausewitz, Carl Von (1976), On War (Princeton University Press) p.593&lt;/ref&gt; The one constant factor is war’s employment of organized violence and the resultant destruction of property and/ or lives that necessarily follows. ===Economic theories=== That [[Economy|economic]] conditions have stimulated war in all ages is a commonplace of history.&lt;ref&gt;John Edwin Bakeless &quot;The economic causes of modern war: a study of the period: 1878-1918&quot;, Department of political science of Williams college, 1921, page 10&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;Baron Arthur Salter Salter, Arthur Porritt &quot;The causes of war: economic, industrial, racial, religious, scientific, and political&quot;, Ayer Publishing, 1969, ISBN 978-0836913729, page 1&lt;/ref&gt; In this view wars begin as a pursuit of territory for [[natural resource]]s and for wealth. &lt;blockquote&gt; ''&quot;Is there any man, is there any woman, let me say any child here that does not know that the seed of war in the modern world is industrial and commercial rivalry?&quot;'' - [[Woodrow Wilson]], September 11, 1919, St. Louis.&lt;ref&gt;''The Papers of [[Woodrow Wilson]], Arthur S. Link, ed.'' (Princeton, N.J.: [[Princeton University]] Press, 1990), vol. 63, pp.45–46.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt; &lt;blockquote&gt; ''&quot;In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the [[military-industrial complex]]. The potential for disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.&quot;'' - [[Dwight Eisenhower]], Farewell Address, January 17, 1961.&lt;/blockquote&gt; According to Frans de Waal in his book, Age of Empathy, war, in the sense of being an organised conflict is more profitable to societies with the concept of property, than perhaps to Bushmen or other &quot;technology-primitive&quot; humans; he goes to argue that since the bushmen in their struggle for every-day survival and with limited resources, a large conflict with humans is viewed as unthinkable, as it poses a threat to the very survival of these small groups; &quot;Lions&quot;, &quot;hyenas&quot;, crocodiles and especially leopards are more immediate and less dangerous a threat than genocide, these communities being small in numbers without scarcely any technological advancement since the stone Age. Frans de Waal goes to suggests that war is more an affair &quot;of profit and power&quot; (Age of Empathy, Chapter1, page 44 éditions LIL). [[Government]] funded war programs have historically produced some of the most innovative products we know today. The PhDs at the Universities that created things like the transistor were funded by war programs. War funded programs created the cell phone as a way for soldiers to communicate easily from within their tanks over long distances. War is also very lucrative for central banks in the sense that governments have to borrow large amounts of money from their central bank, to be repayed with interest which the government collects through income tax. Several conspiracy theories claim that central banking systems like the [[Federal Reserve]] are secretly owned by international bankers who understand the economic benefits of war and thus manipulate the public to believe on an imaginary national enemy, whether that is terrorism or climate change in order to initiate the war process.&lt;ref&gt;Report from the Iron Mountain, section &quot;The environmental pollution model&quot; (page 6), section &quot;Environmentalism as a substitute for war&quot; (page 9), [http://www.freedom-force.org/pdf/Report_from_Iron_Mountain.pdf]&lt;/ref&gt; ===Marxist theories=== The [[Marxism|Marxist]] theory of war is quasi-economic in that it states that all modern wars are caused by competition for resources and markets between great ([[Imperialism|imperialist]]) powers, claiming these wars are a natural result of the [[free market]] and [[Social class|class system]]. Part of the theory is that war will only disappear once a [[world revolution]], over-throwing free markets and class systems, has occurred. ===Evolutionary psychology=== A distinct branch of the psychological theories of war are the arguments based on [[evolutionary psychology]]. This school tends to see war as an extension of animal behaviour, such as territoriality and [[competition]]. Animals are naturally aggressive, and in humans this aggression manifests itself as warfare. However, while war has a natural cause, the development of technology has accelerated human destructiveness to a level that is irrational and damaging to the species. The earliest advocate of this theory was [[Konrad Lorenz]].&lt;ref&gt;Lorenz, Konrad ''On Aggression'' 1966&lt;/ref&gt; Biologists studying primate behaviour have also added to the debate. [[Jane Goodall]] in 1974 documented what she called a war between groups of wild [[chimpanzee]]s in the [[Gombe National Park]] of [[Tanzania]].&lt;ref&gt;See interview with Jane Goodall, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0kuMS-EATs KTEH TV 1997, Dec 9, via youtube] and see [http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/dept/d10/asb/origins/goodall.html National Geographic Magazine], December 1995, Crusading for Chimps and Humans . . . Jane Goodall, By Peter Miller (at maricopa.edu)&lt;/ref&gt; The BBC broadcast what narrator Sir [[David Attenborough]] called a 'raid into the territory of their neighbors' by a group of Chimps in the series Planet Earth.&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7XuXi3mqYM&amp;NR=1&amp;feature=fvwp BBC WorldWide, 2008 Dec 16, &quot;Planet Earth&quot; (via youtube)]&lt;/ref&gt; These theories have been criticized by scholars such as John G. Kennedy, who argue that the organized, sustained war of humans differs more than just technologically from the territorial fights between animals. Ashley Montagu&lt;ref&gt;Montagu, Ashley (1976), &quot;The Nature of Human Aggression&quot; (Oxford University Press)&lt;/ref&gt; strongly denies such universalistic instinctual arguments, pointing out that social factors and childhood socialization are important in determining the nature and presence of warfare. Thus while human aggression may be a universal occurrence, warfare is not and would appear to have been a historical invention, associated with certain types of human societies. However, this is contradicted by the archaeological evidence that warfare occurred throughout pre-history, and so cannot be a &quot;historical invention&quot;. Thus, social factors that correlate with a lack of warfare, simply means that warfare, although based on instinctual behavior, is not inevitable and can be prevented by cultural aspects, such as childhood socialization. ===Behavioural theories=== Some [[Psychology|psychologist]]s such as E.F.M. Durban and [[John Bowlby]] have argued that human beings are [[Inheritance|inherently]] violent.&lt;ref&gt;Durbin, E.F.L. and John Bowlby .''Personal Aggressiveness and War'' 1939.&lt;/ref&gt; This aggressiveness is fueled by [[displacement (psychology)|displacement]] and [[Psychological projection|projection]] where a person transfers their grievances into [[bias]] and [[hatred]] against other [[Race (classification of human beings)|races]], religions, nations or [[Ideology|ideologies]]. By this theory the nation state preserves order in the local society while creating an outlet for aggression through warfare. If war is innate to human nature, as is presupposed and predetermined by many psychological theories, then there is little hope of ever escaping it{{Citation needed|date=January 2010}}. The Italian psychoanalyst Franco Fornari, a follower of [[Melanie Klein]], thought that war was the paranoid or projective “elaboration” of mourning.&lt;ref&gt;(Fornari 1975)&lt;/ref&gt; Fornari thought that war and violence develop out of our “love need”: our wish to preserve and defend the sacred object to which we are attached, namely our early mother and our fusion with her. For the adult, nations are the sacred objects that generate warfare. Fornari focused upon sacrifice as the essence of war: the astonishing willingness of human beings to die for their country, to give over their bodies to their nation. While these theories may have some general explanatory value about why war exists, they do not explain when or how they occur. Nor do they explain the existence of certain human cultures completely devoid of war.&lt;ref&gt;Turnbull, Colin (1987), &quot;The Forest People&quot; (Touchstonbe Books)&lt;/ref&gt; If the innate psychology of the human mind is unchanging, these variations are inconsistent. A solution adapted to this problem by certain thinkers such as the psychologist, [[Franz Alexander]] is that peace does not really exist. Periods that are seen as peaceful are actually periods of preparation for a later war or when war is suppressed by a state of great power, such as the [[Pax Britannica]].&lt;ref&gt;Alexander, Franz. &quot;The Psychiatric Aspects of War and Peace.&quot; 1941&lt;/ref&gt; An additional problem with theories that rest on the will of the general population, is that in history only a tiny fraction of wars have originated from a desire for war from the general populace.&lt;ref&gt;Blanning, T.C.W. &quot;The Origin of Great Wars.&quot; ''The Origins of the French Revolutionary Wars.'' pg. 5&lt;/ref&gt; Far more often the general population has been reluctantly drawn into war by its rulers. One psychological theory that looks at the leaders is advanced by Maurice Walsh.&lt;ref&gt;Walsh, Maurice N. ''War and the Human Race.'' 1971.&lt;/ref&gt; He argues that the general populace is more neutral towards war and that wars only occur when leaders with a psychologically abnormal disregard for human life are placed into power. War is caused by leaders that seek war such as [[Napoleon I of France|Napoleon]] and [[Adolf Hitler|Hitler]]. Such leaders most often come to power in times of crisis when the populace opts for a decisive leader, who then leads the nation to war. [[Evolutionary biologist]] and peace ethologist [[Judith Hand]], looking at the proximal causes of war, also argues that a minority of mostly men—so called hyper-alpha males—are the instigators of wars. She argues that while several aspects of biology, particularly male biology, make humans susceptible to making war, war only emerges when cultural conditions favor it. If conditions favoring war were eliminated, she argues, as does anthropologist [[Douglas P. Fry]], war could be eliminated. ===Sociological theories=== {{Multiple issues|section=November 2010|unreferenced=June 2008|OR=January 2010}} [[Sociology]] has long been very concerned with the origins of war, and many thousands of theories have been advanced, many of them contradictory. Sociology has thus divided into a number of schools. One, the ''Primat der Innenpolitik'' (Primacy of Domestic Politics) school based on the works of [[Eckart Kehr]] and [[Hans-Ulrich Wehler]], sees war as the product of domestic conditions, with only the target of aggression being determined by international realities. Thus [[World War I]] was not a product of international [[Controversy|dispute]]s, secret treaties, or the balance of power but a product of the economic, social, and political situation within each of the states involved. This differs from the traditional ''Primat der Außenpolitik'' (Primacy of Foreign Politics) approach of [[Carl von Clausewitz]] and [[Leopold von Ranke]] that argues it is the decisions of statesmen and the [[Geopolitics|geopolitical]] situation that leads to peace. ===Demographic theories===&lt;!-- This section is linked from [[The Clash of Civilizations|Clash of Civilizations]] --&gt; [[File:Gari-Melchers-War-Highsmith.jpeg|thumb|450px|[[Gari Melchers]], Mural of War, 1896.]] Demographic theories can be grouped into two classes, Malthusian theories and [[youth bulge]] theories. ====Malthusian theories==== Malthusian theories see expanding population and scarce resources as a source of violent conflict. [[Pope Urban II]] in 1095, on the eve of the [[First Crusade]], wrote, &quot;For this land which you now inhabit, shut in on all sides by the sea and the mountain peaks, is too narrow for your large population; it scarcely furnishes food enough for its cultivators. Hence it is that you murder and devour one another, that you wage wars, and that many among you perish in civil strife. Let hatred, therefore, depart from among you; let your quarrels end. Enter upon the road to the Holy Sepulchre; wrest that land from a wicked race, and subject it to yourselves.&quot; This is one of the earliest expressions of what has come to be called the Malthusian theory of war, in which wars are caused by expanding populations and limited resources. [[Thomas Malthus]] (1766–1834) wrote that populations always increase until they are limited by war, [[disease]], or [[famine]]. This theory is thought by Malthusians to account for the relative decrease in wars during the past fifty years, especially in the [[Developed country|developed world]], where advances in agriculture have made it possible to support a much larger population than was formerly the case, and where [[birth control]] has dramatically slowed the increase in population. ====Youth bulge theory==== [[File:Median age.png|thumb|350px|[[Population pyramid|Median age]] by country. A youth bulge is evident for [[Demographics of Africa|Africa]], and to a lesser extent for South and Southeast Asia and Central America.]] [[Youth bulge]] theory differs significantly from Malthusian theories. Its adherents see a combination of large male youth cohorts—as graphically represented as a &quot;youth bulge&quot; in a [[population pyramid]]—with a lack of regular, peaceful [[employment]] opportunities as a risk pool for [[violence]]. While Malthusian theories focus on a disparity between a growing population and available natural resources, youth bulge theory focuses on a disparity between non-inheriting, 'excess' young males and available social positions within the existing social system of [[division of labour]]. Contributors to the development of [[youth bulge]] theory include French sociologist Gaston Bouthoul,&lt;ref&gt;Bouthoul, Gaston: &quot;L`infanticide différé&quot; (deferred infanticide), Paris 1970&lt;/ref&gt; US sociologist [[Jack Goldstone|Jack A. Goldstone]],&lt;ref&gt;Goldstone, Jack A.: &quot;Revolution and Rebellion in the Early Modern World&quot;, Berkeley 1991; Goldstone, Jack A.: &quot;Population and Security: How Demographic Change can Lead to Violent Conflict&quot;, [http://jia.sipa.columbia.edu/pdf/demographics_capstone.pdf]&lt;/ref&gt; US political scientist Gary Fuller,&lt;ref&gt;Fuller, Gary: &quot;The Demographic Backdrop to Ethnic Conflict: A Geographic Overview&quot;, in: CIA (Ed.): &quot;The Challenge of Ethnic Conflict to National and International Order in the 1990s&quot;, Washington 1995, 151–154&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.scribd.com/doc/131797/Graham20Fuller20paper?query2=muslim%20population%20bulge%20europe Fuller, Gary (2004): &quot;The Youth Crisis in Middle Eastern Society&quot;]&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;Fuller, Gary (2003): &quot;The Youth Factor: The New Demographics of the Middle East and the Implications for U.S. Policy&quot;[http://www.brook.edu/fp/projects/islam/fuller2003.pdf]&lt;/ref&gt; and German sociologist [[Gunnar Heinsohn]].&lt;ref&gt;Gunnar Heinsohn (2003): &quot;Söhne und Weltmacht: Terror im Aufstieg und Fall der Nationen&quot; (&quot;Sons and Imperial Power: Terror and the Rise and Fall of Nations&quot;), Zurich 2003), available online as free download (in German) [http://www.pdf4ebook-verlag.de/ShneundWeltmacht.html#Zweig4]; see also the review of this book by Göran Therborn: &quot;Nato´s Demographer&quot;, New Left Review 56, March/April 2009, 136-144 [http://www.newleftreview.org/?page=article&amp;view=2775]&lt;/ref&gt; [[Samuel P. Huntington|Samuel Huntington]] has modified his [[The Clash of Civilizations|Clash of Civilizations]] theory by using youth bulge theory as its foundation: &lt;blockquote&gt; ''I don't think Islam is any more violent than any other religions, and I suspect if you added it all up, more people have been slaughtered by Christians over the centuries than by Muslims. But the key factor is the demographic factor. Generally speaking, the people who go out and kill other people are males between the ages of 16 and 30.'' ''During the 1960s, 70s and 80s there were high birth rates in the Muslim world, and this has given rise to a huge youth bulge. But the bulge will fade. Muslim birth rates are going down; in fact, they have dropped dramatically in some countries. Islam did spread by the sword originally, but I don't think there is anything inherently violent in Muslim theology.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;‘So, are civilizations at war?’, Interview with Samuel P. Huntington by Michael Steinberger, The Observer, Sunday October 21, 2001.[http://observer.guardian.co.uk/islam/story/0,,577982,00.html]&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;/blockquote&gt; [[Youth Bulge]] theories represent a relatively recent development but seem to have become more influential in guiding US foreign policy and military strategy as both Goldstone and Fuller have acted as consultants to the US Government. CIA Inspector General [[John L. Helgerson]] referred to youth bulge theory in his 2002 report &quot;The National Security Implications of Global Demographic Change&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;Helgerson, John L. (2002): &quot;The National Security Implications of Global Demographic Trends&quot;[http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/cia/helgerson2.htm]&lt;/ref&gt; According to Heinsohn, who has proposed youth bulge theory in its most generalized form, a youth bulge occurs when 30 to 40 percent of the males of a nation belong to the &quot;fighting age&quot; cohorts from 15 to 29 years of age. It will follow periods with [[total fertility rate]]s as high as 4-8 children per woman with a 15-29 year delay. A total fertility rate of 2.1 children born by a woman during her lifetime represents a situation where the son will replace the father, and the daughter will replace the mother. Thus, a total fertility rate of 2.1 represents replacement level, while anything below represents a [[sub-replacement fertility]] rate leading to [[population decline]]. Total fertility rates above 2.1 will lead to [[population growth]] and to a [[youth bulge]]. A total fertility rate of 4-8 children per mother implies 2-4 sons per mother. Consequently, one father has to leave not 1, but 2 to 4 social positions (jobs) to give all his sons a perspective for life, which is usually hard to achieve. Since respectable positions cannot be increased at the same speed as food, textbooks and vaccines, many &quot;angry young men&quot; find themselves in a situation that tends to escalate their adolescent anger into violence: they are #Demographically superfluous, #Might be out of work or stuck in a menial job, and #Often have no access to a legal sex life before a career can earn them enough to provide for a family. ''See: [[Hypergamy]], [[Waithood]]''. The combination of these [[stress (biological)|stress]] factors according to Heinsohn&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http://www.geocities.com/funnyguy_35/DefenceTraining.PDF&amp;date=2009-10-25+22:25:12 Heinsohn, G.(2006): &quot;Demography and War.&quot;]&lt;/ref&gt; has typically lead such young men to pursue one of the following six different strategies: #Emigration (&quot;non violent colonization&quot;) #Violent Crime #Rebellion or putsch #Civil war and/or revolution #Genocide (to take over the positions of the slaughtered) #Conquest (violent colonization, frequently including genocide abroad). [[Religions]] and [[Ideology|ideologies]] are seen as secondary factors that are being used to legitimate violence, but will not lead to violence by themselves if no youth bulge is present. Consequently, youth bulge theorists see both past &quot;Christianist&quot; European colonialism and imperialism and today's &quot;Islamist&quot; civil unrest and terrorism as results of high birth rates producing youth bulges.&lt;ref&gt;Heinsohn, G.(2005): &quot;Population, Conquest and Terror in the 21st Century.&quot;[http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http://www.geocities.com/funnyguy_35/HeinsohnPopulation.PDF&amp;date=2009-10-25+22:25:15]&lt;/ref&gt; Youth bulge theorists consider the [[Gaza Strip]] as another example of youth-bulge-driven violence, especially if compared to [[Lebanon]] which is geographically close, yet remarkably more peaceful.&lt;ref&gt;G. Heinsohn: &quot;Why Gaza is Fertile Ground for Angry Young Men.&quot; Financial Times Online, June 14, 2007 [http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0db3a2b8-1a14-11dc-99c5-000b5df10621.html?nclick_check=1], retrieved on December 23, 2007; compare demographic data for Gaza Strip ([http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/idbpyrs.pl?cty=GZ&amp;out=s&amp;ymax=250&amp;Submit.x=15&amp;Submit.y=7],[http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idb/country/gzportal.html])and Lebanon ([http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/idbpyrs.pl?cty=LE&amp;out=s&amp;ymax=250&amp;submit=Anfrage+abschicken],[http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idb/country/leportal.html]) provided by the US Census Bureau; see also David Bau: &quot;History is Demographics&quot;[http://davidbau.com/archives/2007/02/03/history_is_demographics.html], retrieved on December 23, 2007&lt;/ref&gt; Among prominent historical events that have been linked to the existence of youth bulges is the role played by the historically large youth cohorts in the rebellion and revolution waves of early modern Europe, including [[French Revolution]] of 1789,&lt;ref&gt;Goldstone, Jack A.: &quot;Revolution and Rebellion in the Early Modern World&quot;, Berkeley 1991&lt;/ref&gt; and the importance of economic depression hitting the largest German youth cohorts ever in explaining the rise of [[Nazism]] in Germany in the 1930s.&lt;ref&gt;Moller, Herbert (1968): ‘Youth as a Force in the Modern World’, Comparative Studies in Society and History 10: 238–260; 240–244&lt;/ref&gt; The 1994 [[Rwandan Genocide]] has also been analyzed as following a massive youth bulge.&lt;ref&gt;Diessenbacher, Hartmut (1994): Kriege der Zukunft. Die Bevölkerungsexplosion gefährdet den Frieden. Muenchen: Hanser 1998; see also (criticizing youth bulge theory) Marc Sommers (2006): &quot;Fearing Africa´s Young Men: The Case of Rwanda.&quot; The World Bank: Social Development Papers&amp;nbsp;— Conflict Prevention and Reconstruction, Paper No. 32, January 2006 [http://www.eldis.org/vfile/upload/1/document/0708/DOC21389.pdf]&lt;/ref&gt; While the implications of population growth have been known since the completion of the [[National Security Study Memorandum 200]] in 1974,&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.population-security.org/28-APP2.html ''National Security Study Memorandum 200 (NSSM 200) - April 1974'']&lt;/ref&gt; neither the US nor the WHO have implemented the recommended measures to control population growth to avert the terrorist threat. Youth Bulge theory has been subjected to statistical analysis by the World Bank,&lt;ref&gt;Urdal, Henrik (2004): &quot;The Devil in the Demographics: The Effect of Youth Bulges on Domestic Armed Conflict,&quot; [http://www-wds.worldbank.org/servlet/WDSContentServer/WDSP/IB/2004/07/28/000012009_20040728162225/Rendered/PDF/29740.pdf],&lt;/ref&gt; [[Population Action International]],&lt;ref&gt;Population Action International (2003): &quot;The Security Demographic: Population and Civil Conflict after the Cold War&quot;[http://www.populationaction.org/Publications/Reports/The_Security_Demographic/Summary.shtml]&lt;/ref&gt; and the [[Berlin Institute for Population and Development]].&lt;ref&gt;Kröhnert, Steffen (2004): &quot;Jugend und Kriegsgefahr: Welchen Einfluss haben demografische Veränderungen auf die Entstehung von Konflikten?&quot; [http://www.berlin-institut.org/pages/fs/fs_studie_jugendundkrieg.html]&lt;/ref&gt; Detailed demographic data for most countries is available at the international database of the [[United States Census Bureau]].&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idb/index.html United States Census Bureau: International Database]&lt;/ref&gt; Youth bulge theories have been criticized as leading to racial, gender and age &quot;discrimination&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;Hendrixson, Anne: &quot;Angry Young Men, Veiled Young Women: Constructing a New Population Threat&quot; [http://www.thecornerhouse.org.uk/item.shtml?x=85999]&lt;/ref&gt; ===Rationalist theories=== Rationalist theories of war assume that both sides to a potential war are rational, which is to say that each side wants to get the best possible outcome for itself for the least possible loss of life and property to its own side. Given this assumption, if both countries knew in advance how the war would turn out, it would be better for both of them to just accept the post-war outcome without having to actually pay the costs of fighting the war. This is based on the notion, generally agreed to by almost all scholars of war since [[Carl von Clausewitz]], that wars are reciprocal, that all wars require both a decision to attack and also a decision to resist attack. Rationalist theory offers three reasons why some countries cannot find a bargain and instead resort to war: issue indivisibility, [[information asymmetry]] with incentive to deceive, and the inability to make [[credible commitment]]s.&lt;ref&gt;Fearon, James D. 1995. &quot;Rationalist Explanations for War.&quot; International Organization 49, 3: 379-414. [http://www.polisci.ucsd.edu/~bslantch/courses/pdf/fearon-io1995v49n3.pdf]&lt;/ref&gt; Issue indivisibility occurs when the two parties cannot avoid war by bargaining because the thing over which they are fighting cannot be shared between them, only owned entirely by one side or the other. Religious issues, such as control over the [[Temple Mount]] in Jerusalem, are more likely to be indivisible than economic issues. A bigger branch of the theory, advanced by scholars of international relations such as [[Geoffrey Blainey]], is that both sides decide to go to war and one side may have miscalculated. Some go further and say that there is a problem of information asymmetry with incentives to misrepresent. The two countries may not agree on who would win a war between them, or whether victory would be overwhelming or merely eked out, because each side has military secrets about its own capabilities. They will not avoid the bargaining [[failure]] by sharing their secrets, since they cannot trust each other not to lie and exaggerate their strength to extract more concessions. For example, Sweden made efforts to deceive Nazi Germany that it would resist an attack fiercely, partly by playing on the myth of Aryan superiority and by making sure that [[Hermann Göring]] only saw elite troops in action, often dressed up as regular soldiers, when he came to visit. The American decision to enter the [[Vietnam War]] was made with the full knowledge that the communist forces would resist them, but did not believe that the guerrillas had the capability to long oppose [[United States armed forces|American forces]]. Thirdly, bargaining may fail due to the states' inability to make credible commitments.&lt;ref&gt;Powell, Robert. 2002. &quot;Bargaining Theory and International Conflict.&quot; Annual Review of Political Science 5: 1-30.&lt;/ref&gt; In this scenario, the two countries might be able to come to a bargain that would avert war if they could stick to it, but the benefits of the bargain will make one side more powerful and lead it to demand even more in the future, so that the weaker side has an incentive to make a stand now. Rationalist explanations of war can be critiqued on a number of grounds. The assumptions of cost-benefit calculations become dubious in the most extreme genocidal cases of World War II, where the only bargain offered in some cases was infinitely bad. Rationalist theories typically assume that the state acts as a unitary individual, doing what is best for the state as a whole; this is problematic when, for example, the country's leader is beholden to a very small number of people, as in a personalistic dictatorship. Rationalist theory also assumes that the actors are rational, able to accurately assess their likelihood of success or failure, but the proponents of the psychological theories above would disagree. Rationalist theories are usually explicated with [[game theory]], for example, the [[Peace war game|Peace War Game]], not a [[Wargaming|wargame]] as such, rather a [[simulation]] of [[Economy|economic]] decisions underlying war. ===Political science theories=== {{Ref improve section|date=June 2008}} The [[statistical]] analysis of war was pioneered by [[Lewis Fry Richardson]] following [[World War I]]. More recent databases of wars and armed conflict have been assembled by the [[Correlates of War]] Project, Peter Brecke and the [[Uppsala Conflict Data Program]]. There are several different [[international relations theory]] schools. Supporters of [[realism in international relations]] argue that the motivation of states is the quest for security. Which sometimes is argued to contradict the realist view, that there is much empirical evidence to support the claim that states that are [[Democracy|democracies]] do not go to war with each other, an idea that has come to be known as the [[democratic peace theory]]. Other factors included are difference in moral and religious beliefs, economical and trade disagreements, declaring independence, and others. Another major theory relating to [[power in international relations]] and ''[[Power politics|machtpolitik]]'' is the [[Power Transition theory]], which distributes the world into a hierarchy and explains major wars as part of a cycle of [[hegemony|hegemons]] being destabilized by a [[great power]] which does not support the hegemons' control. Military adventurism can sometimes be used by political leaders as a means of boosting their domestic popularity, as has been recorded in US war-time presidential popularity surveys taken during the presidencies of several recent US leaders.&lt;ref name = &quot;MilitaryAdventurism&quot;&gt;{{cite web | year = 2001 | url = http://www.bepress.com/peps/vol7/iss3/3/ | title= Peace Economics, Peace Science and Public Policy (pg. 19) | accessdate = 2010-02-07}} Leaders may use war as instant popularity boost &lt;/ref&gt; ==Morality of wars== [[File:Morgen nach der Schlacht967b.jpg|thumb|250px|&quot;The morning after the [[battle of Waterloo]]&quot;, by John Heaviside Clarke, 1816.]] {{Multiple issues|unreferenced=June 2008|OR=January 2010|date=November 2010}} Throughout history war has been the source of serious [[morality|moral]] questions. Although many ancient nations and some modern ones have viewed war as noble, over the sweep of history, concerns about the morality of war have gradually increased. Today, war is seen by some as undesirable and morally problematic. At the same time, many view war, or at least the preparation and readiness and willingness to engage in war, as necessary for the defense of their country and therefore a [[Just War|just war]]. [[Pacifists]] believe that war is inherently immoral and that no war should ever be fought. The negative view of war has not always been held as widely as it is today. [[Heinrich von Treitschke]] saw war as humanity's highest activity where [[courage]], [[honour]], and ability were more necessary than in any other endeavour. [[Friedrich Nietzsche]] also saw war as an opportunity for the [[Übermensch]] to display heroism, honour, and other virtues.{{Citation needed|date=September 2008}} However, it is important to note that both Heinrich Von Treitschke and Frederich Nietzsche never participated in any wars due to incidents beforehand. Von Treitschke fell deaf at a young age, preventing him from any military service. Nietzsche endured a tragic riding accident which left him unfit for military service. Also, Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel and Thomas Mann, who are mentioned in the following paragraph, both never participated in any wars either, but are regardless, well known, influential and intelligent philosophers of their time. Another supporter of war, [[Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel]], favoured it as part of the necessary process required for history to unfold and allow society to progress. At the outbreak of [[World War I]], the writer [[Thomas Mann]] wrote, &quot;Is not peace an element of civil corruption and war a purification, a liberation, an enormous hope?&quot; This attitude has been embraced by societies from [[Sparta]] and [[Ancient Rome|Rome]] in the ancient world to the [[Fascism|fascist]] states of the 1930s. Support for war continues to this day, especially regarding the notion of a [[Just War]] (necessary wars required to halt an aggressor or otherwise dangerous nation or group). [[International law]] recognizes only two cases for a legitimate war: #Wars of defense: when one nation is attacked by an aggressor, it is considered legitimate for a nation along with its allies to defend itself against the aggressor. #Wars sanctioned by the [[UN Security Council]]: when the United Nations as a whole acts as a body against a certain nation. Examples include various [[peacekeeping]] operations around the world, as well as the Korean and 1st Gulf Wars. The subset of international law known as the [[Laws of war|law of war]] or [[international humanitarian law]] also recognises regulations for the conduct of war, including the [[Geneva Conventions]] governing the legitimacy of certain kinds of weapons, and the treatment of [[prisoners of war]]. Cases where these conventions are broken are considered [[war crimes]], and since the [[Nuremberg Trials]] at the end of [[World War II]] the international community has established a number of tribunals to try such cases. A nation's [[economy]] is often stimulated by government war-spending. When countries wage war, more weapons, armor, ammunition, and the like are needed to be created and sold to the armies, thus their economies can enter a boom (or [[war economy]]) reducing unemployment. ==Conduct of wars== {{Original research|section|date=January 2010}} The war, to become known as one, must entail some degree of confrontation using [[weapon]]s and other [[military technology and equipment]] by [[armed forces]] employing [[military tactics]] and [[Operational art]] within the broad [[military strategy]] subject to [[military logistics]]. [[War Studies]] by military theorists throughout [[military history]] have sought to identify the [[Philosophy of war]], and to reduce it to a [[Military science]]. In general, modern military science considers several factors before a [[Defence policy|National defence policy]] is created to allow a war to commence: the environment in the area(s) of combat operations, the posture national forces will adopt on the commencement of a war, and the type of warfare troops will be engaged in. ===Behaviour and conduct in war=== {{rquote|right|The nature of warfare ''never'' changes, only its superficial manifestations. [[Joshua]] and [[David]], [[Hector]] and [[Achilles]] would recognize the combat that our soldiers and Marines have waged in the alleys of Somalia and Iraq. The uniforms evolve, bronze gives way to titanium, arrows may be replaced by laser-guided bombs, but the heart of the matter is still killing your enemies until any survivors surrender and do your will.|[[Ralph Peters]]&lt;ref&gt;Peters, Ralph. &quot;New Glory: Expanding America's Global Supremacy&quot;, 2005. p.30&lt;/ref&gt;}} The behaviour of troops in warfare varies considerably, both individually and as units or armies. In some circumstances, troops may engage in [[genocide]], [[war rape]] and [[ethnic cleansing]]. Commonly, however, the conduct of troops may be limited to posturing and sham attacks, leading to highly rule-bound and often largely symbolic combat in which casualties are much reduced from that which would be expected if soldiers were genuinely violent towards the enemy.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|last=Lt. Col. Dave Grossman|title=On Killing&amp;nbsp;– The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War &amp; Society|publisher= Little, Brown &amp; Co|year=1996|isbn=0316040932}}&lt;/ref&gt; Situations of deliberate dampening of hostilities occurred in [[World War I]] by some accounts, ''e.g.'', a volley of gunfire being exchanged after a misplaced mortar hit the British line, after which a German soldier shouted an apology to British forces, effectively stopping a hostile exchange of gunfire.&lt;ref&gt;Axelrod, Robert. 1984. ''The Evolution of Cooperation.'' New York: Basic Books.&lt;/ref&gt; Other examples of non-aggression, also from [[World War I]], are detailed in [[Good-Bye to All That|Goodbye to all that]]. These include spontaneous ceasefires to rebuild defences and retrieve casualties, alongside behaviour such as refusing to shoot at enemy during ablutions and the taking of great risks (described as 1 in 20) to retrieve enemy wounded from the battlefield. The most notable spontaneous ceasefire of [[World War I]] was the [[Christmas truce]]. It has been postulated that [[sport]] serves as a direct alternative to war, and may be regarded as having an equivalent social function. Sipes found war and sporting alternatives to be positively correlated.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal|doi=10.1525/aa.1973.75.1.02a00040|last=Sipes|first=Richard G. |date=(Feb., 1973)|journal=American Anthropologist|issue=, New Series, Vol. 75, No. 1 |pages=64–86 |url=http://www.jstor.org/stable/672340|title=War, Sports and Aggression: An Empirical Test of Two Rival Theories|volume=75}}&lt;/ref&gt; The psychological separation between combatants, and the destructive power of modern weaponry, may act to override this effect and facilitate participation by combatants in the mass slaughter of combatants or civilians, such as in the [[bombing of Dresden in World War II]].{{Citation needed|date=September 2009}} The unusual circumstances of warfare can incite apparently normal individuals to commit atrocities.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|last=Waller|first=James|title=Becoming Evil: How Ordinary People Commit Genocide and Mass Killing|isbn=0195148681}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Types of warfare=== {{Multiple issues|section=November 2010|unreferenced=June 2008|OR=January 2010}} * [[Conventional warfare]] is an attempt to reduce an opponent's military capability through open battle. It is a declared war between existing states in which nuclear, biological, or chemical weapons are not used or only see limited deployment in support of conventional military goals and maneuvers. : The opposite of conventional warfare, [[unconventional warfare]], is an attempt to achieve military victory through acquiescence, capitulation, or clandestine support for one side of an existing conflict. * [[Nuclear warfare]] is a war in which [[nuclear weapon]]s are the primary method of coercing the capitulation of the other side, as opposed to a supporting tactical or strategic role in a conventional conflict. * [[Civil war]] is a war where the forces in conflict belong to the same nation or political entity and are vying for control of or independence from that nation or political entity. * [[Asymmetric warfare]] is a conflict between two populations of drastically different levels of military capability or size. Asymmetric conflicts often result in [[Guerrilla warfare|guerrilla]] tactics being used to overcome the sometimes vast gaps in technology and force size. * Intentional air pollution in combat is one of a collection of techniques collectively called [[chemical warfare]]. Poison gas as a [[Chemical warfare|chemical weapon]] was principally used during [[World War I]], and resulted in an estimated 91,198 deaths and 1,205,655 injuries.{{Citation needed|date=June 2008}} Various treaties have sought to ban its further use. Non-lethal chemical weapons, such as [[tear gas]] and [[pepper spray]], are widely used, sometimes with deadly effect. ===Military posture=== Historian [[Victor Davis Hanson]] has claimed there exists a unique &quot;Western Way of War&quot;, in an attempt to explain the military successes of Western Europe.&lt;sup&gt;citation needed&lt;/sup&gt; It originated in [[Ancient Greece]], where, in an effort to reduce the damage that warfare has on society, the city-states developed the concept of a decisive pitched battle between heavy infantry. This would be preceded by formal declarations of war and followed by peace negotiations. In this system constant low-level skirmishing and guerrilla warfare were phased out in favour of a single, decisive contest, which in the end cost both sides less in casualties and property damage. Although it was later perverted by [[Alexander the Great]]&lt;sup&gt;?&lt;/sup&gt;, this style of war initially allowed neighbours with limited resources to coexist and prosper. He argues that Western-style armies are characterised by an emphasis on discipline and teamwork above individual bravado. Examples of Western victories over non-Western armies include the [[Battle of Marathon]], the [[Battle of Gaugamela]], the [[Siege of Tenochtitlan]], the [[Battle of Plassey]] and the defence of [[Rorke's Drift]]. ===Warfare environment=== The environment in which a war is fought has a significant impact on the type of combat which takes place, and can include within its area different types of terrain. This in turn means that soldiers have to be trained to fight in a specific types of environments and terrains that generally reflects troops' mobility limitations or enablers. These include: {{Col-begin}} {{Col-2}} '''Conventional warfare''' *[[Strategic defence|Defensive warfare]] *[[Strategic offensive|Offensive warfare]] *[[Jungle warfare]] *[[List of border wars|Border warfare]] a type of limited defensive warfare *[[Urban warfare]] *[[Desert warfare]] *[[Maneuver warfare]] *[[Trench warfare]] *[[Mountain warfare]] sometimes called Alpine warfare *[[Arctic warfare]] or Winter warfare in general *[[Naval warfare]] or Aquatic warfare that includes Littoral, Amphibious and Riverine warfare *[[Napoleonic warfare]] {{Col-2}} '''Unconventional warfare''' *[[Guerrilla warfare|Guerilla warfare]] *[[Psychological warfare]] *[[Biological warfare]] *[[Chemical warfare]] *[[Mining (military)|Mine warfare]] a type of static terrain denial warfare *[[Aerial warfare|Air warfare]] that includes Airborne warfare and Airmobile warfare *[[Submarine warfare|Sub-aquatic warfare]] *[[Space warfare]] *[[Electronic warfare]] including Radio, Radar and Network warfare *[[Cyberwarfare|Cyber warfare]] *[[Directed-energy warfare]] *[[Nuclear warfare]] *[[Tribal warfare]] and [[Gang|gang warfare]], which occur on a local or sub-state level {{Col-end}} ==Effects of war== [[File:War world map - DALY - WHO2004.svg|thumb|350px|[[Disability-adjusted life year]] for war per 100,000&amp;nbsp;inhabitants in 2004.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=http://www.who.int/entity/healthinfo/global_burden_disease/gbddeathdalycountryestimates2004.xls |title=Mortality and Burden of Disease Estimates for WHO Member States in 2004 |format= |work=World Health Organization |accessdate=}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;references-small&quot; style=&quot;-moz-column-count:3; column-count:3;&quot;&gt; {{legend|#b3b3b3|no data}} {{legend|#ffff65|less than 100}} {{legend|#fff200|100-200}} {{legend|#ffdc00|200-600}} {{legend|#ffc600|600-1000}} {{legend|#ffb000|1000-1400}} {{legend|#ff9a00|1400-1800}} {{legend|#ff8400|1800-2200}} {{legend|#ff6e00|2200-2600}} {{legend|#ff5800|2600-3000}} {{legend|#ff4200|3000-8000}} {{legend|#ff2c00|8000-8800}} {{legend|#cb0000|more than 8800}} &lt;/div&gt;]] It is estimated that 378 000 people died due to war each year between 1985 and 1994.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |author=Obermeyer Z, Murray CJ, Gakidou E |title=Fifty years of violent war deaths from Vietnam to Bosnia: analysis of data from the world health survey programme |journal=BMJ |volume=336 |issue=7659 |pages=1482–6 |year=2008 |month=June |pmid=18566045 |pmc=2440905 |doi=10.1136/bmj.a137 |url=}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Apotheosis.jpg|thumb|300px|''The Apotheosis of War'' (1871) by [[Vasily Vereshchagin]]]] Today, for Iraq alone, there has been over a million deaths as a direct consequence of the [[Post-invasion Iraq, 2003–present|American occupation of Iraq]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|author=Peter Beaumont and Joanna Walters |title=Greenspan admits Iraq was about oil, as deaths put at 1.2m |date=16-09-2007 |url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/sep/16/iraq.iraqtimeline}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{PDFlink|[http://www.thelancet.com/webfiles/images/journals/lancet/s0140673606694919.pdf &quot;Mortality after the 2003 invasion of Iraq: a cross-sectional cluster sample survey&quot;]|242&amp;nbsp;KB}}. By Gilbert Burnham, Riyadh Lafta, Shannon Doocy, and Les Roberts. ''[[The Lancet]],'' October 11, 2006&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Lancet supplement&quot;&gt;{{PDFlink|[http://web.mit.edu/CIS/pdf/Human_Cost_of_War.pdf The Human Cost of the War in Iraq: A Mortality Study, 2002-2006]|603&amp;nbsp;KB}}. By Gilbert Burnham, Shannon Doocy, Elizabeth Dzeng, Riyadh Lafta, and Les Roberts. A supplement to the second ''Lancet'' study.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq |title=Iraq Deaths |publisher=Just Foreign Policy |date= |accessdate=2009-10-17}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===On soldiers=== {{Quotation1|They would have dedicated their lives to fighting battles, with little possibility of regaining the ability to live successfully as a civilian. One-tenth of mobilised American men were hospitalised for mental disturbances between 1942 and 1945, and after thirty-five days of uninterrupted combat, 98% of them manifested psychiatric disturbances in varying degrees.&lt;ref name=War&gt;[http://www.ralphmag.org/CG/world-war-one2.html World War One --- A New Kind of War | Part II], From ''14 - 18 Understanding the Great War'', by Stéphane Audoin-Rouzeau, Annette Becker&lt;/ref&gt;}} Based on 1860 census figures, 8% of all white American males aged 13 to 43 died in the [[American Civil War]], including 6% in the North and 18% in the South.&lt;ref name=&quot;HarvardCraig&quot;&gt;{{cite web|last=Lambert|first=Craig|title=The Deadliest War|publisher=Harvard Magazine|date=May–June 2001|url=http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/050155.html|accessdate=2007-10-14}}&lt;/ref&gt; Of the 60 million European soldiers who were mobilized in [[World War I]], 8 million were killed, 7 million were permanently disabled, and 15 million were seriously injured.&lt;ref&gt;Kitchen, Martin (2000),''[http://www.jimmyatkinson.com/papers/versaillestreaty.html#endnotes The Treaty of Versailles and its Consequences]'', New York: Longman&lt;/ref&gt; During [[Napoleon I of France|Napoleon]]'s retreat from [[Moscow]], more French soldiers died of [[typhus]] than were killed by the Russians.&lt;ref&gt;[http://entomology.montana.edu/historybug/TYPHUS-Conlon.pdf The Historical Impact of Epidemic Typhus]. Joseph M. Conlon.&lt;/ref&gt; Felix Markham thinks that 450,000 crossed the [[Neman River|Neman]] on 25 June 1812, of whom less than 40,000 recrossed in anything like a recognizable military formation.&lt;ref&gt;See a large copy of the chart [http://www.adept-plm.com/Newsletter/NapoleonsMarch.htm], but discussed at length in Edward Tufte, ''The Visual Display of Quantitative Information'' (London: Graphics Press, 1992)&lt;/ref&gt; More soldiers were killed from 1500–1914 by typhus than from all military action during that time combined.&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,794989,00.html War and Pestilence]. ''TIME''.&lt;/ref&gt; In addition, if it were not for the modern medical advances there would be thousands of more dead from disease and infection. ===On civilians=== Many wars have been accompanied by significant depopulations. During the [[Thirty Years' War]] in Europe, for example, the population of the [[Holy Roman Empire|German]] states was reduced by about 30%.&lt;ref&gt;[http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#30YrW The Thirty Years War (1618–1648)], Alan McFarlane, The Savage Wars of Peace: England, Japan and the Malthusian Trap (2003)&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/195896/history-of-Europe/58335/Demographics#ref=ref310375 History of Europe&amp;nbsp;– Demographics]. Encyclopædia Britannica.&lt;/ref&gt; The [[Swedish Empire|Swedish]] armies alone may have destroyed up to 2,000 castles, 18,000 villages and 1,500 towns in Germany, one-third of all German towns.&lt;ref name=&quot;Population-HLS&quot;&gt;{{cite web |url=http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/population_thirty_years_war.htm|title=Population|publisher=History Learningsite|accessdate=2008-05-24}}&lt;/ref&gt; Estimates for the total [[World War II casualties|casualties of World War II]] vary, but most suggest that some 60 million people died in the war, including about 20 million soldiers and 40 million civilians.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=World War II Fatalities|url=http://www.secondworldwar.co.uk/casualty.html|accessdate=2007-04-20}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[Soviet Union]] lost around [[World War II casualties of the Soviet Union|27 million people]] during the war, about half of all World War II casualties.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4530565.stm|title=Leaders mourn Soviet wartime dead | date=May 9, 2005 | accessdate=January 6, 2010 | work=BBC News}}&lt;/ref&gt; The largest number of civilian deaths in a single city was 1.2 million citizens dead during the 872-day [[Siege of Leningrad]]. ===On the economy=== {{See also|Military keynesianism}} Once a war has ended, losing nations are sometimes required to pay [[war reparations]] to the victorious nations. In certain cases, land is ceded to the victorious nations. For example, the territory of [[Alsace-Lorraine]] has been traded between France and Germany on three different occasions. Typically speaking, war becomes very intertwined with the economy and many wars are partially or entirely based on economic reasons such as the [[American Civil War]]. In some cases war has stimulated a country's economy (World War II is often credited with bringing America out of the [[Great Depression]]) but in many cases, such as the wars of Louis XIV, the [[Franco-Prussian War]], and [[World War I]], warfare serves only to damage the economy of the countries involved. For example, Russia's involvement in World War I took such a toll on the Russian economy that it almost collapsed and greatly contributed to the start of the [[Russian Revolution of 1917]]. ====World War II==== One of the starkest illustrations of the effect of war upon economies is the [[Second World War]]. The [[Great Depression]] of the 1930s ended as nations increased their production of war materials to serve the [[war effort]].&lt;ref&gt;[http://memory.loc.gov/learn/features/timeline/depwwii/depwar.html Great Depression and World War II]. ''The Library of Congress''.&lt;/ref&gt; The financial cost of the World War II is estimated at about $1.944 [[Orders of magnitude (numbers)#1012|trillion]] US dollars worldwide,&lt;ref&gt;Mayer, E. (2000) [http://emayzine.com/lectures/WWII.html &quot;World War II&quot;] course lecture notes on ''Emayzine.com'' (Victorville, California: Victor Valley College)&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;Coleman, P. (1999) [http://members.aol.com/forcountry/ww2/wc1.htm &quot;Cost of the War,&quot;] ''World War II Resource Guide'' (Gardena, California: The American War Library)&lt;/ref&gt; making it the most costly war in capital as well as lives. Property damage in the Soviet Union inflicted by the [[Eastern Front (World War II)|Axis invasion]] was estimated to a value of 679 billion rubles. The combined damage consisted of complete or partial destruction of 1,710 cities and towns, 70,000 villages/hamlets, 2,508 church buildings, 31,850 industrial establishments, 40,000 miles of railroad, 4100 railroad stations, 40,000 hospitals, 84,000 schools, and 43,000 public libraries.&lt;ref&gt;''[[The New York Times]]'', 9 February 1946, Volume 95, Number 32158.&lt;/ref&gt; ==Factors ending a war== {{Multiple issues|section=November 2010|unreferenced=June 2008|OR=January 2010}} [[File:Aftermath Battle of Triboltingen.jpg|thumb|Women and priests retrieve the dead bodies of Swabian soldiers just outside the city gates of Constance after the [[battle of Schwaderloh]]. ''([[Luzerner Schilling]])'']] The political and economic circumstances in the peace that follows war usually depends on the &quot;[[facts on the ground]]&quot;. Where evenly matched adversaries decide that the conflict has resulted in a [[stalemate]], they may cease hostilities to avoid further loss of life and property. They may decide to restore the [[Antebellum period|antebellum]] territorial boundaries, redraw boundaries at the line of military control, or negotiate to keep or exchange captured territory. Negotiations between parties involved at the end of a war often result in a [[treaty]], such as the [[Treaty of Versailles]] of 1919, which ended the [[World War I|First World War]]. A warring party that [[Surrender (military)|surrenders]] or [[Capitulation (surrender)|capitulates]] may have little negotiating power, with the victorious side either imposing a settlement or dictating most of the terms of any treaty. A common result is that conquered territory is brought under the dominion of the stronger military power. An [[unconditional surrender]] is made in the face of overwhelming military force as an attempt to prevent further harm to life and property. For example, the [[Empire of Japan]] gave an unconditional surrender to the [[Allies of World War II]] after the [[atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki]] (see [[Surrender of Japan]]), the preceding massive strategic bombardment of Japan and declaration of war and the immediate invasion of Manchuria by the Soviet Union. A settlement or surrender may also be obtained through [[deception]] or bluffing. Many other wars, however, have ended in complete destruction of the opposing territory, such as the [[Battle of Carthage (c. 149 BCE)|Battle of Carthage]] of the [[Third Punic War]] between the [[Phoenicia]]n city of [[Carthage]] and Ancient Rome in 149 BC. In 146 BC the Romans burned the city, enslaved its citizens, and razed the buildings. Some wars or aggressive actions end when the military objective of the victorious side has been achieved. Others do not, especially in cases where the state structures do not exist, or have collapsed prior to the victory of the conqueror. In such cases, disorganised [[Guerrilla warfare|guerilla warfare]] may continue for a considerable period. In cases of complete surrender conquered territories may be brought under the permanent dominion of the victorious side. A raid for the purposes of [[looting]] may be completed with the successful capture of goods. In other cases an aggressor may decide to end hostilities to avoid continued losses and cease hostilities without obtaining the original objective, such as happened in the [[Iran–Iraq War]]. Some hostilities, such as [[insurgency]] or [[civil war]], may persist for long periods of time with only a low level of military activity. In some cases there is no negotiation of any official treaty, but fighting may trail off and eventually stop after the political demands of the belligerent groups have been reconciled, a political settlement has been negotiated, or combatants are gradually killed or decide the conflict is futile. ==List of wars by death toll== {{Merge to|List of wars and disasters by death toll|date=August 2008}} ''These figures include deaths of civilians from [[infectious disease|diseases]], [[famine]], [[War crime|atrocities]] etc. as well as deaths of soldiers in [[battle]]. ''This is an '''incomplete list''' of wars.'' *60,000,000–72,000,000 - [[World War II]] (1939–1945), (see [[World War II casualties]])&lt;ref&gt;Wallinsky, David: ''David Wallechinsky's Twentieth Century: History With the Boring Parts Left Out'', Little Brown &amp; Co., 1996, ISBN 0-316-92056-8, ISBN 978-0-316-92056-8 - cited by [http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Second White]&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;Brzezinski, Zbigniew: ''Out of Control: Global Turmoil on the Eve of the Twenty-first Century'', Prentice Hall &amp; IBD, 1994, ASIN B000O8PVJI&amp;nbsp;— cited by [http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Second White]&lt;/ref&gt; *36,000,000 - [[An Shi Rebellion]] (China, 755–763)&lt;ref&gt;[http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#AnLushan Selected Death Tolls for Wars, Massacres and Atrocities Before the 20th Century]&lt;/ref&gt; *30,000,000–60,000,000 - [[Mongol Empire|Mongol Conquests]] (13th century) (see [[Mongol Conquests|Mongol invasions]] and [[Tatar invasions]])&lt;ref&gt;Ping-ti Ho, &quot;An Estimate of the Total Population of Sung-Chin China&quot;, in ''Études Song'', Series 1, No 1, (1970) pp.33–53.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;[http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#Mongol Mongol Conquests]&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;[http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1510/is_1987_Fall/ai_5151514/pg_2 The world's worst massacres Whole Earth Review]&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/Ibn_Battuta/Battuta's_Trip_Three.html Battuta's Travels: Part Three - Persia and Iraq]&lt;/ref&gt; *25,000,000 - [[Qing dynasty]] conquest of [[Ming Dynasty|Ming dynasty]] (1616–1662)&lt;ref&gt;McFarlane, Alan: ''The Savage Wars of Peace: England, Japan and the Malthusian Trap'', Blackwell 2003, ISBN 0-631-18117-2, ISBN 978-0-631-18117-0 - cited by [http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#Manchu17c White]&lt;/ref&gt; *20,000,000 - [[World War I]] (1914–1918) (see [[World War I casualties]])&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/casualties.htm &quot;Military Casualties of World War One&quot;]&lt;/ref&gt; *20,000,000 - [[Taiping Rebellion]] (China, 1851–1864) (see [[Dungan revolt]])&lt;ref&gt;[http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/article-9380148/Taiping Taiping Rebellion - Britannica Concise]&lt;/ref&gt; *20,000,000 - [[Second Sino-Japanese War]] (1937–1945)&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/nuclear_01.shtml Nuclear Power: The End of the War Against Japan]&lt;/ref&gt; *10,000,000 - [[Warring States Era]] (China, 475 BC–221 BC) *7,000,000–20,000,000 - Conquests of [[Tamerlane]] (1360–1405)&lt;ref&gt;[http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#Timur Timur Lenk (1369–1405)]&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;Matthew's White's website (a compilation of scholarly estimates) -[http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#Asian Miscellaneous Oriental Atrocities]&lt;/ref&gt; *5,000,000–9,000,000 - [[Russian Civil War|Russian Civil War and Foreign Intervention]] (1917–1921)&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/RUScivilwar.htm Russian Civil War]&lt;/ref&gt; *5,000,000 - Conquests of [[Menelik II of Ethiopia]] (1882–1898)&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=38659 Oromo Identity]&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.ifeas.uni-mainz.de/ethno/kulturanthro_afrika/glories.html Glories and Agonies of the Ethiopian past]&lt;/ref&gt; *3,800,000–5,400,000 - [[Second Congo War]] (1998–2007)&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.theirc.org/news/latest/inside-congo-an-unspeakable.html Inside Congo, An Unspeakable Toll]&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.guardian.co.uk/congo/story/0,12292,932034,00.html Conflict in Congo has killed 4.7m, charity says]&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1713275,00.html Come Back, Colonialism, All is Forgiven]&lt;/ref&gt; *3,500,000–6,000,000 - [[Napoleonic Wars]] (1804–1815) (see [[Napoleonic Wars casualties]]) *3,000,000–11,500,000 - [[Thirty Years' War]] (1618–1648)&lt;ref&gt;[http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#30YrW The Thirty Years War (1618–1648)]&lt;/ref&gt; *3,000,000–7,000,000 - [[Yellow Turban Rebellion]] (China, 184–205) *2,500,000–3,500,000 - [[Korean War]] (1950–1953) (see [[Cold War]])&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.historylink.org/essays/output.cfm?file_id=3324 Cease-fire agreement marks the end of the Korean War on July 27, 1953.]&lt;/ref&gt; *2,300,000–3,800,000 - [[Vietnam War]] (entire war 1945–1975) **300,000–1,300,000 - [[First Indochina War]] (1945–1954) **100,000–300,000 - [[Vietnamese Civil War]] (1954–1960) **1,750,000–2,100,000 - [[Role of United States in the Vietnam War|American phase]] (1960–1973) **170,000 - Final phase (1973–1975) **175,000–1,150,000 - [[Laotian Civil War|Secret War]] (1962–1975) *2,000,000–4,000,000 - [[French Wars of Religion|Huguenot Wars]]&lt;ref&gt;[http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#Huguenot Huguenot Religious Wars, Catholic vs. Huguenot (1562–1598)]&lt;/ref&gt; *2,000,000 - [[Shaka]]'s conquests (1816–1828)&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.historynet.com/wars_conflicts/19_century/3032216.html?page=4&amp;c=y Shaka: Zulu Chieftain]&lt;/ref&gt; *2,000,000 - [[Mahmud of Ghazni]]'s invasions of India (1000–1027)&lt;ref&gt;K. S. Lal: ''[[Growth of Muslim Population in Medieval India]]'', 1973&lt;/ref&gt; *300,000–3,000,000 - [[Bangladesh Liberation War]] (1971)&lt;ref name=MathewWhite&gt;Matthew White's ''[http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat2.htm#Bangladesh Death Tolls for the Major Wars and Atrocities of the Twentieth Century]''&lt;/ref&gt; *1,500,000–2,000,000 - [[Civil war in Afghanistan|Afghan Civil War]] (1979– ) **1,000,000–1,500,000 - [[Soviet war in Afghanistan|Soviet intervention]] (1979–1989) *1,300,000–6,100,000 - [[Chinese Civil War]] (1928–1949) ''note that this figure excludes World War II casualties'' **300,000–3,100,000 - before 1937 **1,000,000–3,000,000 - after World War II *1,000,000–2,000,000 - [[Mexican Revolution]] (1910–1920)&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.hist.umn.edu/~rmccaa/missmill/ Missing Millions: The human cost of the Mexican Revolution, 1910–1921]&lt;/ref&gt; *1,000,000 - [[Iran–Iraq War]] (1980–1988)&lt;ref&gt;[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/737483.stm Timeline: Iraq]&lt;/ref&gt; *1,000,000 - [[Japanese invasions of Korea (1592–1598)]]&lt;ref&gt;Jones, Geo H., Vol. 23 No. 5, p. 254&lt;/ref&gt; *1,000,000 - [[Second Sudanese Civil War]] (1983–2005) *1,000,000 - [[Nigerian Civil War]] (1967–1970) *618,000–970,000 - [[American Civil War]] (including 350,000 from disease) (1861–1865)&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/050155.html The Deadliest War]&lt;/ref&gt; *900,000–1,000,000 - [[Mozambique Civil War]] (1976–1993) *868,000 - [[Seven Years' War]] (1756–1763)&lt;ref&gt;Clodfelter, cited by [http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wars18c.htm#7YrW White]&lt;/ref&gt;–1,400,000&lt;ref&gt;Urlanis, cited by [http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wars18c.htm#7YrW White]&lt;/ref&gt; *800,000–1,000,000 - [[Rwandan Civil War]] (1990–1994) *800,000 - [[First Congo War|Congo Civil War]] (1991–1997) *600,000–1,300,000 - [[First Jewish–Roman War|First Jewish-Roman War]] (see [[List of wars involving Rome|List of Roman wars]]) *580,000 - [[Bar Kokhba revolt|Bar Kokhba’s revolt]] (132–135CE) *570,000 - [[Eritrean War of Independence]] (1961–1991) *550,000 - [[Somali Civil War]] (1988– ) *500,000–1,000,000 - [[Spanish Civil War]] (1936–1939) *500,000 - [[Angolan Civil War]] (1975–2002) *500,000 - [[Ugandan Bush War|Ugandan Civil War]] (1979–1986) *400,000–1,000,000 - [[War of the Triple Alliance]] in [[Paraguay]] (1864–1870) *400,000 - [[War of the Spanish Succession]] (1701–1714) *371,000 - [[Continuation War]] (1941–1944) *350,000 - [[Great Northern War]] (1700–1721)&lt;ref&gt;[http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wars18c.htm#North1700 Northern War (1700–1721)]&lt;/ref&gt; *315,000–735,000 - [[Wars of the Three Kingdoms]] (1639–1651) English campaign ~40,000, Scottish 73,000, [[Cromwellian conquest of Ireland|Irish]] 200,000–620,000&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/ashorthistory/archive/intro99.shtml The curse of Cromwell]&lt;/ref&gt; *300,000 - [[Russian-Circassian War]] (1763–1864) (see [[Caucasian War]]) *300,000 - First [[Burundi Civil War]] (1972) *300,000 - [[War in Darfur|Darfur conflict]] (2003– ) *230,000–2,000,000 - [[Eighty Years' War]] (1568–1648) *270,000–300,000 - [[Crimean War]] (1854–1856) *234,000 - [[Philippine-American War]] (1898–1913)&lt;ref&gt;[http://www3.wooster.edu/History/jgates/book-ch3.html John M. Gates, “War-Related Deaths in the Philippines”, ''Pacific Historical Review'' , v. 53, No. 3 (August, 1984), 367–378.]&lt;/ref&gt; *230,000–1,400,000 - [[Ethiopian Civil War]] (1974–1991) *224,000 - [[Balkan Wars]], includes both wars (1912–1913) *220,000 - [[First Liberian Civil War|Liberian Civil War]] (1989– ) *217,000–1,124,303 - [[War on Terror]] (9/11/2001&amp;nbsp;– present){{Citation needed|date=February 2009}} *200,000–1,000,000 - [[Albigensian Crusade]] (1208–1259)&lt;ref&gt;[http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#Crusades Albigensian Crusade (1208–1249)]&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,897752-2,00.html Massacre of the Pure], [[Time (magazine)|Time]], April 28, 1961&lt;/ref&gt; *200,000–800,000 - [[Warlord]] era in [[China]] (1917–1928) *200,000–400,000 - [[Politionele acties]] (Indonesian war of independence) (1946–1949) *200,000 - [[Second Punic War]] (BC218–BC204) (see [[List of Roman battles]]) *200,000 - [[Sierra Leone Civil War]] (1991–2000) *200,000 - [[Algerian Civil War]] (1991– )&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22911428-32682,00.html Attacks raise spectre of civil war]&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/12/21/africa/algeria.php Journalists in Algeria are caught in middle]&lt;/ref&gt; *200,000 - [[Guatemalan Civil War]] (1960–1996) *190,000 - [[Franco-Prussian War]] (1870–1871) *180,000–300,000 - [[La Violencia]] (1948–1958) *170,000 - [[Greek War of Independence]] (1821–1829) *150,000 - [[Lebanese Civil War]] (1975–1990) *150,000 - [[North Yemen Civil War]] (1962–1970) *150,000 - [[Russo-Japanese War]] (1904–1905) *148,000–1,000,000 - [[Winter War]] (1939) *125,000 - [[Eritrean–Ethiopian War|Eritrean-Ethiopian War]] (1998–2000) *120,000–384,000 - [[Great Turkish War]] (1683–1699) (see [[Ottoman-Habsburg wars]]) *120,000 - [[Third Servile War]] (BC73–BC71) *117,000–500,000 - [[Revolt in the Vendée]] (1793–1796) *103,000–1,100,000+ - [[Iraq War|Invasion and Occupation of Iraq]] (2003–present) *101,000–115,000 - [[History of the Arab–Israeli conflict|Arab-Israeli conflict]] (1929– ) *100,500 - [[Chaco War]] (1932–1935) *100,000–1,000,000 - [[Inca Civil War]] (1529–1532) *100,000–400,000 - [[Western New Guinea]] (1984– ) (see [[Genocides in history#West New Guinea .2F West Papua|Genocide in West Papua]]) *100,000–200,000 - [[Indonesian invasion of East Timor]] (1975–1978) *100,000 - [[Gulf War|Persian Gulf War]] (1991) *100,000–1,000,000 - [[Algerian War|Algerian War of Independence]] (1954–1962) *100,000 - [[Thousand Days War]] (1899–1901) *100,000 - [[German Peasants' War]] (1524–1525)&lt;ref&gt;[http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#Psnt1524 Peasants' War, Germany (1524–1525)]&lt;/ref&gt; *97,207 - [[Bosnian War]] (1992–1995)&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.idc.org.ba/prezentacija/Bosna%20i%20Hercegovina.zip Confirmed deaths beyond dispute]&lt;/ref&gt; *80,000 - [[Third Punic War]] (BC149–BC146) *75,000–200,000 - Conquests of [[Alexander the Great]] (BC336–BC323) *75,000 - [[El Salvador]] Civil War (1980–1992) *75,000 - [[Second Boer War]] (1898–1902) *70,000 - [[Boudica]]'s uprising (AD60–AD61) *69,000 - [[Internal conflict in Peru]] (1980– ) *60,000 - [[Sri Lankan Civil War|Sri Lanka/Tamil conflict]] (1983–2009) *60,000 - [[Nicaragua#Nicaraguan Revolution|Nicaraguan Rebellion]] (1972–1991) *55,000 - [[War of the Pacific]] (1879–1885) *50,000–200,000 - [[First Chechen War]] (1994–1996) *50,000–100,000 - [[Tajikistan Civil War]] (1992–1997) *50,000 - [[Wars of the Roses]] (1455–1485) (see [[List of wars involving England|Wars involving England]]) *45,000 - [[Greek Civil War]] (1945–1949) *41,000–100,000 - [[Insurgency in Jammu and Kashmir|Kashmiri insurgency]] (1989– ) *36,000 - [[Finnish Civil War]] (1918) *35,000–40,000 - [[War of the Pacific]] (1879–1884) *35,000–45,000 - [[Siege of Malta (1565)]] (see [[Ottoman wars in Europe]]) *30,000 - [[Turkey]]/[[Kurdistan Workers' Party|PKK]] conflict (1984– ) *30,000 - [[Sino-Vietnamese War]] (1979) *28,000 - [[1982 Lebanon War]] (1982) *25,000 - [[Second Chechen War]] (1999–present)&lt;ref&gt;[http://asiapacific.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGEUR460152007 Russian Federation: What justice for Chechnya's disappeared? - Amnesty International&lt;!-- Bot generated title --&gt;]&lt;/ref&gt; *25,000 - [[American Revolutionary War]] (1775–1783) *23,384 - [[Indo-Pakistani War of 1971]] (December 1971) *23,000 - [[Nagorno-Karabakh War]] (1988–1994) *20,000–49,600 - [[War in Afghanistan (2001–present)|US–UK invasion of Afghanistan]] (2001–2002) *19,000+ - [[Mexican–American War]] (1846–1848) *14,000+ - [[Six-Day War]] (1967) *15,000–20,000 - [[Croatian War of Independence]] (1991–1995) *11,053 - [[Malayan Emergency]] (1948–1960) *11,000 - [[Spanish-American War]] (1898) *10,000–15,000 - [[Western Sahara War]] (1975–1991) *10,000 - [[Amadu's Jihad]] (1810–1818) *10,000 - [[Halabja poison gas attack]] (1988) *7,264–10,000 - [[Indo-Pakistani War of 1965]] (August–September 1965) *7,000–24,000 - [[War of 1812|American War of 1812]] (1812–1815) *7,000 - [[Kosovo War]] (1996–1999) (disputed) *5,000 - [[Turkish invasion of Cyprus]] (1974) *4,600 - [[Sino-Indian War]] (1962) *4,000 - [[Waziristan War]] (2004–2006) *4,000 - [[Irish Civil War]] (1922–1923) *3,500 - [[The Troubles]] (1969–1998) *3,000 - [[Football War]] (1969) *3,000 - [[Ivorian Civil War|Civil war in Côte d'Ivoire]] (2002–2007) *2,899 - [[New Zealand land wars|New Zealand Land Wars]] (1845–1872) *2,604–7,000 - [[Indo-Pakistani War of 1947]] (October 1947&amp;nbsp;– December 1948) *2,000 - [[Irish War of Independence]] (1919–1921) *1,975–4,500+ - [[violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict]] (2000– ) *1,724 - [[War of Lapland]] (1945) *1,500 - [[Romanian Revolution]] (December 1989) *1,500 - [[2006 Lebanon War]] *1,000 - [[Zapatista Army of National Liberation|Zapatista uprising]] in [[Chiapas]] (1994) *907 - [[Falklands War]] (1982) *62 - [[Slovenian Independence War]] (1991) ==In popular culture== {{Main|War in popular culture}} ==See also== {{Very long|date=August 2010}} {{Portal|War}} {{Wikipedia-Books}} *[[Peace]] *[[Collateral damage]] *[[Effects of war]] *[[Geneva Conventions|Geneva Convention]] *[[War resister]] ;Possible causes- {{Div col|cols=2}} *[[Peak water]] *[[Peak uranium]] *[[Peak oil]] *[[Religion]] (''[[Religious war]]'') *[[Racism]] {{Div col end}} ;General reference- {{Div col|cols=2}} *[[Undeclared war]] *[[Colonial war]] *[[Religious war]] *[[Political Warfare]] *[[List of active autonomist and secessionist movements|Breakaway states]] *[[Casus belli]] *[[Fault Line War]] *[[Horses in warfare]] *[[Sun Tzu]], ''[[The Art of War]]'' *[[War cycles]] *[[Water conflicts]] *[[Water resources]] *[[Water security]] *[[War as metaphor]] {{Div col end}} ;War related lists- {{Div col|cols=2}} *[[List of ongoing conflicts]] *[[List of wars and disasters by death toll]] *[[Lists of wars|List of wars]] *[[List of battles]] *[[List of war crimes]] *[[List of orders of battle]] *[[List of invasions]] *[[List of terrorist incidents]] *[[List of military commanders]] *[[List of battles by casualties|List of battles by death toll]] *[[List of battles and other violent events by death toll]] {{Div col end}} ==Further reading== &lt;div class=&quot;references-small&quot;&gt; *Angelo Codevilla and Paul Seabury, ''War: Ends and Means'' (Potomac Books, Revised second edition by Angelo Codevilla, 2006) ISBN-X *Angelo M. Codevilla, ''No Victory, No [[Peace]]'' (Rowman and Littlefield, 2005) ISBN *Barzilai Gad, ''Wars, Internal Conflicts and Political Order: A Jewish Democracy in the Middle East'' (Albany: State University of New York Press, 1996). *Clausewitz, Carl Von (1976), On War (Princeton and New Jersey: Princeton University Press) *Fry, Douglas P., 2005, ''The Human Potential for Peace: An Anthropological Challenge to Assumptions about War and Violence'', Oxford University Press. *Gat, Azar 2006 ''War in Human Civilization'', Oxford University Press. *Gunnar Heinsohn, ''Söhne und Weltmacht: Terror im Aufstieg und Fall der Nationen'' (&quot;Sons and Imperial Power: Terror and the Rise and Fall of Nations&quot;), Orell Füssli (September 2003), ISBN, available online as [http://www.pdf4ebook-verlag.de/ShneundWeltmacht.html#Zweig4 free download] (in German) *{{cite book | author=Fabio Maniscalco, | title=World Heritage and War&amp;nbsp;— monographic series &quot;Mediterraneum&quot;, vol. VI| publisher=Massa, Naples | year=2007 | id=ISBN }} *Keegan, John, (1994) &quot;A History Of Warfare&quot;, (Pimlico) *Kelly, Raymond C., 2000, ''Warless Societies and the Origin of War,'' University of Michigan Press. *{{cite book | author=Small, Melvin &amp; Singer, David J.| title=Resort to Arms: International and Civil Wars, | publisher=Sage Publications | year=1982 | id=ISBN | isbn=0803917767}} *Malesevic, Sinisa, (2010). The Sociology of War and Violence. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. *Otterbein, Keith, 2004, ''How War Began''. *Turchin, P. 2005. ''War and [[Peace]] and War: Life Cycles of Imperial Nations''. New York, NY: Pi Press. ISBN *Van Creveld, Martin ''The Art of War: War and Military Thought'' London: Cassell, Wellington House *Fornari, Franco (1974). ''The Psychoanalysis of War.'' Tr. Alenka Pfeifer. Garden City, New York: Doubleday Anchor Press. ISBN: . Reprinted (1975) Bloomington: Indiana University Press. ISBN *Walzer, Michael (1977) [[Just and Unjust Wars]] (Basic Books) *Keeley, Lawrence. ''War Before Civilization'', Oxford University Press, 1996. *Zimmerman, L. ''The Crow Creek Site Massacre: A Preliminary Report'', US Army Corps of Engineers, Omaha District, 1981. *Chagnon, N. ''The Yanomamo'', Holt, Rinehart &amp; Winston,1983. *Pauketat, Timothy. ''North American Archaeology'' 2005. Blackwell Publishing. *Wade, Nicholas. ''Before the Dawn'', Penguin: New York 2006. *Rafael Karsten, ''Blood revenge, war, and victory feasts among the Jibaro Indians of eastern Ecuador'' (1923). *S. A. LeBlanc, ''Prehistoric Warfare in the American Southwest'', University of Utah Press (1999). *Duane M. Capulla, ''War Wolf'', University of Pili (2008) &lt;/div&gt; ==References== {{Reflist|colwidth=30em}} ==External links== &lt;!--Any links that have not been cited in the article, but related to the article subject area--&gt; &lt;!--===========================({{NoMoreLinks}})===============================--&gt; &lt;!--| DO NOT ADD MORE LINKS TO THIS ARTICLE. WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A COLLECTION OF |--&gt; &lt;!--| LINKS. If you think that your link might be useful, do not add it here, |--&gt; &lt;!--| but put it on this article's discussion page first or submit your link |--&gt; &lt;!--| to the appropriate category at the Open Directory Project (www.dmoz.org)|--&gt; &lt;!--| and link back to that category using the {{dmoz}} template. |--&gt; &lt;!--| |--&gt; &lt;!--| Links that have not been verified WILL BE DELETED. |--&gt; &lt;!--| See [[Wikipedia:External links]] and [[Wikipedia:Spam]] for details |--&gt; &lt;!--===========================({{NoMoreLinks}})===============================--&gt; {{Commons category|War}} {{Commons category|Warfare}} {{Wikiquote}} *[http://www.umich.edu/~cowproj/ Correlates of War Project] *[http://cow2.la.psu.edu/ Correlates of War 2] *[http://www.antiwar.com Antiwar.com] *[http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/war/ Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entry] *[http://www.cedat.org Complex Emergency Database (CE-DAT)] - A database on the human impact of conflicts and other complex emergencies. {{Death}} [[Category:War| ]] [[Category:Violence]] [[af:Oorlog]] [[ar:حرب]] [[an:Guerra]] [[arc:ܩܪܒܐ]] [[bn:যুদ্ধ]] [[map-bms:Perang]] [[be:Вайна]] [[be-x-old:Вайна]] [[bs:Rat]] [[br:Brezel]] [[bg:Война]] [[ca:Guerra]] [[cv:Вăрçă]] [[ceb:Gubat]] [[cs:Válka]] [[ch:Gera]] [[cy:Rhyfel]] [[da:Krig]] [[pdc:Grieg]] [[de:Krieg]] [[et:Sõda]] [[el:Πόλεμος]] [[es:Guerra]] [[eo:Milito]] [[eu:Gerra]] [[fa:جنگ]] [[fr:Guerre]] [[fur:Vuere]] [[ga:Cogadh]] [[gl:Guerra]] [[gan:打仗]] [[ko:전쟁]] [[hi:संग्राम]] [[hr:Rat]] [[id:Perang]] [[ia:Guerra]] [[iu:ᐊᑭᕋᖅᑑᑎᔪᑦ/akiraqtuutijut]] [[is:Stríð]] [[it:Guerra]] [[he:מלחמה]] [[jv:Perang]] [[kn:ಯುದ್ಧ]] [[ka:ომი]] [[sw:Vita]] [[kv:Тыш]] [[kg:Vita]] [[ht:Lagè]] [[ku:Şer]] [[krc:Къазауат]] [[la:Bellum]] [[lv:Karš]] [[lb:Krich]] [[lt:Karas]] [[hu:Háború]] [[mk:Војна]] [[ml:യുദ്ധം]] [[mr:युद्ध]] [[ms:Peperangan]] [[mwl:Guerra]] [[mn:Дайн]] [[nl:Oorlog]] [[nds-nl:Kraig]] [[ja:戦争]] [[no:Krig]] [[nn:Krig]] [[nrm:Dgèrre]] [[oc:Guèrra]] [[mhr:Сар]] [[pnb:لڑائی]] [[nds:Krieg]] [[pl:Wojna]] [[pt:Guerra]] [[ksh:Kreech]] [[ro:Război]] [[qu:Maqanakuy]] [[ru:Война]] [[sq:Lufta]] [[scn:Guerra]] [[simple:War]] [[sk:Vojna]] [[sl:Vojna]] [[so:Dagaalada]] [[sr:Рат]] [[sh:Rat]] [[fi:Sota]] [[sv:Krig]] [[tl:Digmaan]] [[ta:போர்]] [[te:యుద్ధం]] [[th:สงคราม]] [[tr:Savaş]] [[uk:Війна]] [[ur:جنگ]] [[vec:Guera]] [[vi:Chiến tranh]] [[fiu-vro:Sõda]] [[wa:Guere]] [[war:Gerá]] [[yi:מלחמה]] [[yo:Ogun]] [[zh-yue:打仗]] [[bat-smg:Vaina]] [[zh:战争]]</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:BIock_me_if_you_s%C3%BAkck_cokck&diff=394581163</id> <title>User talk:BIock me if you súkck cokck</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:BIock_me_if_you_s%C3%BAkck_cokck&diff=394581163"/> <updated>2010-11-03T13:40:33Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: You have been indefinitely blocked from editing because your username is a violation of the username policy. (TW) <hr /> <div>== November 2010 == &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot;&gt;{{z12}}[[Image:Information.svg|left|45px]]This account has been blocked indefinitely from editing Wikipedia because your username, ''BIock me if you súkck cokck'', does not meet our username policy.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;p&gt;'''Your username is the only reason for this block. You are welcome to choose a new username (see below).'''&lt;/p&gt;A username should not be promotional, related to a &quot;real-world&quot; group or organization, misleading, offensive, or disruptive. Also, usernames may not end in the word &quot;bot&quot; unless the account is an approved [[WP:BOT|bot account]]. You are encouraged to '''[[Special:Userlogin/signup|choose a new account name]]''' that meets our [[WP:U|policy]] guidelines. Alternatively, if you have already made edits and you wish to keep your [[Special:MyContributions|existing contributions]] under a new name, then you may request a '''[[WP:CHU|change in username]]''' by: :# Adding &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. Do not include the &quot;tlx&quot; argument. --&gt;{{tlx|unblock-un|''your new username here''}} on [[Special:MyTalk|your user talk page]]. You should be able to do this even though you are blocked, as you can usually still edit your own talk page. If not, you may wish to contact the blocking administrator by clicking on &quot;E-mail this user&quot; on their talk page. :# At an administrator's discretion, you may be unblocked for 24 hours to file a request. :# Please note that you may only request a name that is not already in use, so please check [[Special:ListUsers|here]] for a listing of already taken names. The account is created upon acceptance, thus '''do not''' try to create the new account before making the request for a name change. For more information, please see [[Wikipedia:Changing username]]. If you feel that you were blocked in error, you may [[Wikipedia:AAB|appeal this block]] by adding below this notice the text &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. Do not include the &quot;tlx&quot; argument. --&gt;{{tlx|unblock|Your reason here}}, but you should read our [[WP:GAB|guide to appealing blocks]] first. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 13:40, 3 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Uw-ublock --&gt;[[Category:Wikipedians who are indefinitely blocked for a violation of the username policy|{{PAGENAME}}]]&lt;!-- Template:uw-ublock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Harikrishna08&diff=394571151</id> <title>User talk:Harikrishna08</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Harikrishna08&diff=394571151"/> <updated>2010-11-03T12:25:32Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Added welcome template to user talk page using TW <hr /> <div>== November 2010 == [[File:Information.svg|25px]] Welcome and thank you for experimenting with Wikipedia. Your test worked, and it has been [[Help:Reverting|reverted]] or removed. Please take a look at the [[Wikipedia:Introduction|welcome page]] to learn more about contributing to [[Wikipedia|this encyclopedia]]. If you would like to experiment further, please use the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]] instead. Thank you.&lt;!-- Template:uw-test1 --&gt; [[User:Bencherlite|Bencherlite]][[User talk:Bencherlite|&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Talk&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;]] 12:25, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == Welcome == &lt;!-- Template:Welcomelaws --&gt; ;Welcome! Hello and [[Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers|welcome]] to [[Wikipedia]]. Thank you for [[Special:Contributions/Harikrishna08|your contributions]]. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. The following links will help you begin editing on Wikipedia: *[[Wikipedia:Five pillars|The Five Pillars of Wikipedia]] *[[Wikipedia:How to edit a page|How to edit a page]] *[[Wikipedia:Tutorial|Editing tutorial]] *[[Wikipedia:Picture tutorial|Picture tutorial]] *[[Wikipedia:How to write a great article|How to write a great article]] *[[Wikipedia:Naming conventions|Naming conventions]] *[[Wikipedia:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] ;Please bear these points in mind while editing Wikipedia: * '''[[Wikipedia:Copyrights|Respect copyrights]]''' – do not copy and paste text or images directly from other websites. * Maintain a '''[[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|neutral point of view]]''' – this is possibly the most important Wikipedia policy. * Take particular care while adding biographical material about a '''[[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons|living person]]''' to any Wikipedia page to follow '''[[WP:BLP|Wikipedia's Biography of Living Persons]]' policy'''. Particularly, controversial and negative statements should be [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|referenced]] with multiple [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable sources]]. * No '''[[Wikipedia:edit warring|edit warring]]''' and '''[[Wikipedia:Sockpuppetry|sockpuppetry]]'''. * If you are testing, please use the '''[[Wikipedia:Sandbox|Sandbox]]''' to [{{fullurl:Wikipedia:Sandbox|action=edit}} do so]. * Do not add troublesome content to any [[Wikipedia:What is an article|article]], such as: [[copyright]]ed text, [[Wikipedia:Libel|libel]], advertising or promotional messages, and text that is not related to an article's subject. Deliberately adding such content or otherwise editing articles maliciously is considered [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]], doing so will result your account or IP being [[WP:BLOCK|blocked from editing]]. The [[Wikipedia:Tutorial|Wikipedia Tutorial]] is a good place to start learning about Wikipedia. If you have any questions, see the [[Wikipedia:Help|help pages]], add a question to the [[Wikipedia:village pump|village pump]] or ask me on [[User talk:TFOWR{{!}}my talk page]]. By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and discussion pages using four tildes, like this: &amp;#126;&amp;#126;&amp;#126;&amp;#126; (the software will replace them with your signature and the date). Again, welcome! [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 12:25, 3 November 2010 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&diff=394571045</id> <title>Talk:Main Page</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&diff=394571045"/> <updated>2010-11-03T12:24:42Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Reverted edits by Harikrishna08 (talk) to last version by Kafziel <hr /> <div>{{pp-move-indef}} &lt;!--- Please start new discussions at the bottom of this talk page using the NEW SECTION tab, or use the EDIT button beside the section heading to add to it. The &quot;section edit button&quot; and &quot;new section tab&quot; are important, so please use them. --&gt; '''[[Category:Main Page]] {{Talk:Main Page/HelpBox}}''' {{User:MiszaBot/config |archiveheader = {{aan}} |maxarchivesize = 200k |counter = 154 |minthreadsleft = 2 |algo = old(3d) |archive = Talk:Main Page/Archive %(counter)d }} {{Talk:Main Page/Archives}} &lt;div style=&quot;right:100px;&quot; class=&quot;metadata topicon&quot;&gt;'''{{Currentdate}}'''&lt;/div&gt; =Main Page error reports= {{Wikipedia:Main Page/Errors}} &lt;!-- Please leave this stickied at the top of the page, to avoid repeated posts about it =How to remove the donation notice= '''Logged-in users''': go to my preferences, select the 'Gadgets' tab, check the box 'Suppress display of the fundraiser site notice', click 'Save', then bypass your browser cache (Ctrl + F5 on Internet Explorer, Ctrl + Shift + R on Firefox) to see changes. '''Not logged in''': [[Special:CreateAccount|Create an account]] (this takes very little time, all you have to do is pick a username and password), then follow the above instructions. It is beyond the control of the English language Wikipedia to remove the donation notice for users not logged in. Alternatively disabling javascript may be used to prevent the article from being displayed, although this may affect other script based browsing. --&gt; ---- =General discussion= {{Shortcut|T:MP|WT:MP}} __TOC__ &lt;!-- --------------- Please ''start'' new discussion at the bottom of this talk page, or use the EDIT button beside the section heading to add to it. The edit button is important, so have the courtesy to use it. ------------------- --&gt; == Unfortunate position == Hopefully this is the reason. Néstor Kirchner is positioned above the monkey and '''Myanmar snub-nosed monkey''' is beside his photo in big bold writing. He is dead now, dont know if it is a good time to make fun of him. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/89.101.190.66|89.101.190.66]] ([[User talk:89.101.190.66|talk]]) 23:59, 27 October 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :...That's obviously just a co-incidence. [[User talk:Fox|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#169916;&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;'''''f&amp;nbsp;o&amp;nbsp;x'''''&amp;nbsp;&lt;/font&gt;]] 01:01, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :That's odd. I thought Néstor Kirchner was the world's fastest supercomputer. Perhaps &quot;''(pictured)''&quot; needs to be in bold and caps.--[[User:WaltCip|WaltCip]] ([[User talk:WaltCip|talk]]) 14:36, 29 October 2010 (UTC) :: Too distracting? Pls see [[Wikipedia:FAQ/Main Page#Why are the images on &quot;In the news&quot; and &quot;On this day&quot; not aligned next to each relevant entry?]]. --[[Special:Contributions/64.231.54.224|64.231.54.224]] ([[User talk:64.231.54.224|talk]]) 13:44, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :::Why not have the item associated with the picture always be on top with the others following in whatever order is desired? A dividing line can be placed between the items for further clarification. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 12:37, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Debtors and creditors == &quot;Cantillon's entrepreneurial success, however, came at a cost to his debtors, who pursued him with lawsuits, criminal charges, and even murder plots until his death in 1734.&quot; Why would his debtors pursue him, since they owed him money? Perhaps &quot;creditors&quot; is meant. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/121.223.187.105|121.223.187.105]] ([[User talk:121.223.187.105|talk]]) 14:05, 30 October 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :That's what I thought, but 'debtors' is correct, as noted [[Richard Cantillon#Biography|in the article]]. Thanks for reporting it, though :) [[Special:Contributions/85.211.112.212|85.211.112.212]] ([[User talk:85.211.112.212|talk]]) 19:13, 30 October 2010 (UTC) == Featured portal box == Why don't add a featured portal box as in [[WP:Featured content]]. --'''[[User:Extra999|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;Extra&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User:Extra999/Guestbook|&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;999&lt;/font&gt;]]''' ([[User talk:Extra999|Contact &lt;sup&gt;me&lt;/sup&gt;]] + [[Special:Contributions/Extra999|&lt;sub&gt;contribs&lt;/sub&gt;]]) 03:31, 31 October 2010 (UTC) : There are only 149 featured portals. We'd run out in five months. Even if all of WP's portals became Featured Portals we'd run out in a couple of years. : All this on top of all the other difficulties and problems with adding stuff to the main page. [[User:APL|APL]] ([[User talk:APL|talk]]) 03:57, 1 November 2010 (UTC) ::We will make it random. --'''[[User:Extra999|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;Extra&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User:Extra999/Guestbook|&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;999&lt;/font&gt;]]''' ([[User talk:Extra999|Contact &lt;sup&gt;me&lt;/sup&gt;]] + [[Special:Contributions/Extra999|&lt;sub&gt;contribs&lt;/sub&gt;]]) 04:31, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :::Of all the other things clamouring for space on the MP (Featured Lists, Good Articles, Featured Sounds etc), why on Earth would we choose to include Featured Portals? There are very few of them, the vast majority are poorly maintained despite their 'featured' status, and there's already a section on portals in the top right (where ALL the featured portals are only two clicks from the MP). [[User:Modest Genius|&lt;font face=&quot;Times New Roman&quot; color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Modest Genius&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User_talk:Modest Genius|&lt;sup&gt;talk&lt;/sup&gt;]] 20:24, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == DYK on ANI == See [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Plagiarism and copyright concerns on the main page|here]] for an ongoing discussion about DYK. [[User:DC|&lt;font color=&quot;#BB133E&quot; face=&quot;Tahoma&quot;&gt;DC&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:DC|&lt;font color=&quot;#002664&quot; face=&quot;Tahoma&quot;&gt;T&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/DC|&lt;font color=&quot;#002664&quot; face=&quot;Tahoma&quot;&gt;C&lt;/font&gt;]] 14:09, 31 October 2010 (UTC) == Ngo Dinh Diem == [[File:Ngo Dinh Diem - Thumbnail - ARC 542189.gif|thumb|100px|Possibly the most frequently used image on the front page.]] While I am generally skeptical about conspiracy theories, I can't help but notice that references to [[Ngo Dinh Diem]], and also his photograph, get on the front page a great deal. Are there just lots of Vietnam enthusiasts out there or is there a competition running? For the sake of variety, I would like to see a minimum one year exclusion of any reference to Diem and his photo from the front page. [[User:Greenshed|Greenshed]] ([[User talk:Greenshed|talk]]) 20:33, 1 November 2010 (UTC) {{clear}} :[[File:Fernando Lugo - ITN.jpg|thumb|100px|Second most frequently used?]] [[Fernando Lugo]] had a history of doing that for a while. None of the presiding admins seemed to think it was a big deal. If anything, it was entertaining.--[[User:WaltCip|WaltCip]] ([[User talk:WaltCip|talk]]) 22:51, 1 November 2010 (UTC) ::There ''do'' seem to be an awful lot of Vietnam - and Diem in particular - items popping up on OTD. I count ''nineteen'' items on him on [[Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries/All]], more than one every 3 weeks. It wouldn't surprise me if someone had gone around adding lots of them to the templates on the 360-ish days of the year that they're unprotected. [[User:Modest Genius|&lt;font face=&quot;Times New Roman&quot; color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Modest Genius&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User_talk:Modest Genius|&lt;sup&gt;talk&lt;/sup&gt;]] 23:28, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :::{{user|YellowMonkey}} has been swapping out short, unsourced articles for better-developed ones (sometimes FAs). Can't blame him for trying to improve the quality of articles featured on OTD, but because they tend to be articles he's worked on, he may be inadvertently swinging the bias in a different direction. [[User:Dabomb87|Dabomb87]] ([[User talk:Dabomb87|talk]]) 04:24, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::This '''really''' needs sorting. I took out the Vietnam ref on the Nov 6 OTD a few days ago, as it refers partly to the events of 1 Nov and 2 Nov, '''both''' of which were already in OTD for those days. And guess what - when I last checked, it had been put back in. This is overwhelming bias and shouldn't be allowed to continue. Really, it's ridiculous. It seems to me the OTD system is not exposed to much scrutiny, and that authors are promoting their own articles. There should be more rigorous checks, the way there are for FAs. [[Special:Contributions/86.133.55.218|86.133.55.218]] ([[User talk:86.133.55.218|talk]]) 09:29, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::::The problem is twofold: 1) the [[WP:OTD|current criteria]] concentrate on what should be included on a given day and the standard of the article, not on the distribution over the year and 2) because the OTD is generally expected to remain pretty static year-to-year, with the odd change due to centenaries etc and to address article quality concerns, there is very little monitoring or oversight. All the other areas of the MP (except maybe TFP) have large numbers of people watching them and dealing with items as they come up. Very few people pay any attention to the OTD templates, and I doubt they're on many watchlists. IMO there should be a limit of one entry a year for all bold items. [[User:Modest Genius|&lt;font face=&quot;Times New Roman&quot; color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Modest Genius&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User_talk:Modest Genius|&lt;sup&gt;talk&lt;/sup&gt;]] 20:21, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::::::&quot;there should be a limit of one entry a year for all bold items.&quot; - so you'd advocate that [[Christmas]] should appear only on January 7, right? Since that's when it's celebrated by Orthodox Churches on the Julian Calendar? [[User:GeeJo|GeeJo]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:GeeJo|(t)]]&lt;/sup&gt;⁄&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/GeeJo|(c)]]&lt;/sub&gt; &lt;small&gt;&amp;bull;&amp;nbsp;23:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt; ::::::::1) That would be an SA item, not OTD. 2) There would certainly need to be a (very) few exceptions. But most of those would turn out to have separate articles anyway (eg. [[D Day]] and [[German invasion of Poland]] rather than two entries for [[World War II]]). [[User:Modest Genius|&lt;font face=&quot;Times New Roman&quot; color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Modest Genius&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User_talk:Modest Genius|&lt;sup&gt;talk&lt;/sup&gt;]] 23:37, 2 November 2010 (UTC) Yeah, looking through the full list of OTD events, South Vietnam features an absolute huge number of times. While it's great that our coverage of South Vietnam is strong, this is just overkill to have South Vietnam events on October 26, November 1, November 2, November 6, and November 11. I've swapped a bunch of these South Vietnam events into comments for keeping them out of circulation a bit. SV is still way &quot;overrepresented&quot; but to a perhaps more reasonable degree, considering we have high-quality articles there and might as well show them off. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] ([[User talk:SnowFire|talk]]) 05:04, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == Nixon TFA == The reduced-size image for this TFA suffers from a fair bit of Moire-patterning. It needs a median filter applying to remove it. &lt;span style=&quot;text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml&quot;&gt;[[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot]] [[User talk:Parrot of Doom|of Doom]]&lt;/span&gt; 00:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :It's funny - check out the same pix here [[User_talk:Wehwalt#Main_page_appearance]]. With no distortion - maybe it's a bit smaller there? BTW didn't Nixon always have a bit of a Moire pattern? [[User:Smallbones|Smallbones]] ([[User talk:Smallbones|talk]]) 01:48, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::No, *do not* median filter the original file. ::In some cases, the printing process can cause images to acquire a dot pattern, which will cause a moire when scanned at high resolution and then thumbnailed. Median filtering is acceptable to use in these cases (Compare [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/f/f5/20091006051455!Thomas_Crawford%27s_Freedom_J11.jpg this un-filtered high resolution scan] with [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Thomas_Crawford%27s_Freedom_J11.jpg this image] post median-filtering) ::In this case, however, the dot pattern is obviously present in [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e6/Nixon_handout_1950.jpg the original Nixon flyer], and was not an inadvertent result of printing and scanning. In this case, the best way to fix it is to slightly adjust the size of the picture to avoid striding the dot pattern. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 02:03, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::On further experimentation, even that won't do any good -- there's no way to thumbnail it without producing a moire, because the people who made this poster wanted it to look that way. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 02:14, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::Wouldn't the above link from Smallbones appear to disagree with you on that? [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 10:03, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::::In any case I would argue [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Sandbox&amp;oldid=394351681 120 pixels] looks a lot better then what we currently have at [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Today%27s_featured_article/November_2,_2010&amp;oldid=394076437 125 pixels]. BTW while there are some cases when moiré pattern are intentional, I somewhat doubt the people who made the poster had any real concern of the moiré pattern that adjusting the size of a representation of the poster would produce, particularly since that depends on the precise technique used to resize the image, e.g. trying comparing a simple nearest neighbour resize of the image to say 220 pixels horizontal vs a more sophisticated algorithm). While I'm not arguing for the original image to be filtered, I'm not even sure the dot pattern was really intentional per se, it looks to me just like normal halftoning that you would expect given the limits of printing tech. But I admit I'm not an expert on such things. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 10:11, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::::I've knocked it down to 120. It's less visible, but still there. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 14:57, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::::::This was a scan of one in the possession of the Nixon Library. If you look through the file history, it originally was a photograph that I took of another copy of the same flyer (it is about postcard-sized, by the way). If you work from the photograph, do you get better results?--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 15:04, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Wikipedia size: Implementation of proposed changes == In the previous discussion ([[Talk:Main Page/Archive 154#Proposal: Add million-article level to Wikipedia Languages section|now archived]]) there was significant support for two changes: # Remove number of English Wikipedia articles from the top of the page, as it is duplicated in the bottom section. # Display top size category of other language Wikipedias as a ''range'' (i.e. 500,000 to 1,200,000), given that current display is misleading and counter-productive. I am '''in favour''' of these changes to be implemented. --[[User:Elekhh|Elekhh]] ([[User talk:Elekhh|talk]]) 08:35, 2 November 2010 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Help_desk&diff=394567280</id> <title>Wikipedia:Help desk</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Help_desk&diff=394567280"/> <updated>2010-11-03T11:51:09Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: /* Edit war */ WP:GOLDLOCK <hr /> <div> {{/Header}}&lt;div style=&quot;position: absolute; top: 6.4em; right: 1.0em; border: 1px solid #a9a9a9; background: #fff;&quot; class=&quot;boilerplate metadata plainlinks&quot;&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[#footer|&amp;nbsp;Skip to bottom&amp;nbsp;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/div&gt; __TOC__ &lt;!-- This page is for the answers you need to know about using Wikipedia! --&gt; &lt;!-- For knowledge questions, please use the [[Wikipedia:Reference Desk]]! --&gt; &lt;!-- --&gt; &lt;!-- Ask your question at the bottom of this page. It will be answered shortly. --&gt; &lt;!-- --&gt; {{Wikipedia:Help_desk/Archives/2010 October 31}} = November 1 = == How do we get the article reviewed after being marked &quot;like an advertisement?&quot; == Kindly assist because the article is still being marked &quot;like an ad&quot; &amp; lack of reference even after it is edited with sufficient references. Our photos has been approved by WikiCommon but the article is pending. How do we know if it should be edited again to get it published? Thank you. &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Klmarathon|Klmarathon]] ([[User talk:Klmarathon|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Klmarathon|contribs]]) 09:54, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :There is no formal review procedure, and tags are not removed automatically. If you believe you have improved the article so that the tag is no longer appropriate, you can remove the tag. The worst that can happen is that somebody disagrees and puts it back. Make sure you give an informative Edit summary (eg Removed tag as article has been improved). --[[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 10:30, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :The article in question was [[User:Klmarathon/Standard Chartered KL Marathon]]; [[User:Klmarathon]] has been blocked as a spamusername. --[[User:Orangemike|&lt;font color=&quot;darkorange&quot;&gt;Orange Mike&lt;/font&gt;]] &amp;#x007C; [[User talk:Orangemike|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]] 12:51, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == stolen Unncovered Painting from the New York City Area for a novel == I am writing a novel about stolen art in the 1960's in New York City Area. Iwas trying to locaate information on any solen art that wa not recoverred &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/68.215.117.79|68.215.117.79]] ([[User talk:68.215.117.79|talk]]) 01:21, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :[[:Category:Art crime]] would be a good place to start exploring; you could also ask at the [[WP:RDH|Humanities Reference Desk]] to see if anyone had any ideas. --[[User:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#000099&quot;&gt;Jayron&lt;/font&gt;]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;32&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' 01:54, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Advanced search == Under the old interface, &quot;Search&quot; gave the choice of &quot;search&quot; and &quot;go&quot;. The former option seems to me now to be effectively missing. Utter pain in the butt if I want to search broadly for a term when there happens to be a Wikipedia article with that name. Offhand, the only way around this that I can see is if I explicitly navigate to [[Special:Search]], which is pretty obscure. Is there some simpler way to do this that I'm missing, or has this capability now been effectively restricted to the highly savvy? &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] ([[User talk:Jmabel|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jmabel|contribs]]) 02:35, 1 November 2010&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; :When you type a phrase into the search box, you should be getting a drop down menu - at the very bottom of that drop down menu is a link that says &quot;containing...&quot;, along with the text you typed in the search box. Clicking on that will perform a search, rather than going directly to the article. &lt;b&gt;~&lt;i&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#07517C&quot;&gt;[[User:SuperHamster|Super]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#6FA23B&quot;&gt;[[User:SuperHamster|Hamster]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt; &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:SuperHamster|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/SuperHamster|Contribs]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:49, 1 November 2010 (UTC) ::You can also search with an empty box to easily get to [[Special:Search]]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 03:32, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Creating wikipedia for an actress == Greetings, I am an actress and want to be in Wikipedia. How do I correctly create an entry about my career? Thank you [[User:TheRealMilDred|TheRealMilDred]] ([[User talk:TheRealMilDred|talk]]) 04:57, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :Well, first you have to be notable, as evidenced by coverage in third-party [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. After that, see [[Wikipedia:Creating an article]]. '''[[User:Grsz11|&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;Grsz&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Grsz11|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;11&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;''' 05:06, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :Creating an article about yourself is strongly discouraged by [[Wikipedia:Autobiography]]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 05:26, 1 November 2010 (UTC) ::One of the many things which Wikipedia is not is an organ for [[WP:PROMOTION|self-promotion]]. If you have already been noticed in multiple independent sources then Wikipedia wishes to record that. If you have not, then Wikipedia does not, at present, want an article on you. Sorry. --[[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 10:33, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Please Take This Into Consideration: == I believe that Philosophy should be listed among the prime subject names under the reading tab in your homepage. &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Angelo.medina|Angelo.medina]] ([[User talk:Angelo.medina|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angelo.medina|contribs]]) 05:34, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :A [[Portal:Philosophy|philosophy portal]] exists, if that's what you are looking for. [[User:Goodvac|&lt;span style=&quot;text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em;&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;'''''Goodvac'''''&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:Goodvac|&lt;font color=&quot;Blue&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/font&gt;]]) 05:38, 1 November 2010 (UTC) ::I guess it refers to the currently 8 portals linked at the top right of the [[Main Page]]. It appears from [[Talk:Main Page/Archive 69#Adding Philosophy to the main portals list]] that [[Portal:Philosophy]] has failed to gain support in the past. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 08:45, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Task force, work group and subproject == [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Council|WikiProject Council]]'s directory currently labels sub-groups of WikiProjects as either ''task forces'', ''work groups'', or ''subprojects''. Are there any distinctions between these three labels, for example in breadth and depth of coverage and administration? Or are they merely synonyms of one another? Thanks. [[User:AngChenrui|A&lt;small&gt;NG&lt;/small&gt;]][[User talk:AngChenrui|C&lt;small&gt;HENRUI&lt;/small&gt;]] &lt;sub&gt;[[WP:MSE]]&lt;/sub&gt;[[User:AngChenrui/BS|♨]] 09:07, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == violation droits d'auteur == bonjour, j'ai rédigé un article sur la région Picardie et le tourisme en Picardie. Les éléments de cet article sont tirés en du site www.picardietourisme-acteurs.com pour lequel je suis rédacteur en chef. Il n'y a donc aucun problème d'utilisation de ces informations. Merci de rendre accessible ce nouvel article et de supprimer le message sur l'utilisation des données. Vincent &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/80.214.253.143|80.214.253.143]] ([[User talk:80.214.253.143|talk]]) 11:04, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Si vous souhaitez autoriser Wikipedia d'utiliser le contenu de votre site web, s'il vous plaît suivez les instructions décrites sur [[WP:IOWN|cette page]]. Ici, sur la Wikipédia en anglais, tous les contenus des articles doivent être en anglais: si vous essayez de contribuer à la Wikipédia en francaise, s'il vous plaît visitez [http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Pages_soup%C3%A7onn%C3%A9es_de_violation_de_copyright#Attente_d.27autorisation_sur_OTRS cette page]. :If you want to give Wikipedia permission to use the contents of your site, please follow the steps outlined at [[WP:IOWN|this guide to donating copyright materials]]. NB that here on the English language Wikipedia, all article content must be in English. If you are trying to contribute to the French language Wikipedia (fr.wikipedia.org), please read [http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Pages_soup%C3%A7onn%C3%A9es_de_violation_de_copyright#Attente_d.27autorisation_sur_OTRS this page]. [[User:Gonzonoir|Gonzonoir]] ([[User talk:Gonzonoir|talk]]) 11:33, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == reset my page == I am Bruce Schreffler @ &lt;email removed&gt; and need to reset my pass word. can you help? &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/68.248.101.86|68.248.101.86]] ([[User talk:68.248.101.86|talk]]) 14:00, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :The only advice I can give is that you should look at [[Help:Logging in]]. Posting your email address here won't help, and will only attract spam, so I have removed it. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 14:07, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Where to report copyright violators? == I want to know that if any unregistered user indulges in a clear copyright violation, then what warnings should be given and after how many warnings, the user can be reported, so that an IP ban may be imposed on them. Also, which is the appropriate place to report such users. Thanks. - [[User:Managerarc| &lt;font face=&quot;Arial&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:Blue&quot;&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;b&gt;Managerarc&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]][[User talk:Managerarc|&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[talk]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] 14:36, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :Have a look at [[WP:Copyright problems]] and [[WP:Contact us/Article problem/Copyright]]. -- [[User:Bk314159|Bk314159]] ([[User talk:Bk314159|Talk to me]] and [[Special:Contributions/Bk314159|find out what I've done]]) 14:40, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :(edit conflict) If you find a copyright violation, the most urgent action is to protect the project by removing or blanking the text, following the instructions at [[Wikipedia:Copyright problems]]. The warning {{tp|uw-copyright}} is suitable for a first-time violation. If the same user continues to violate copyrights after being warned, this constitutes vandalism (see [[WP:VANDTYPES]]) and the usual series of escalating warnings can be followed by a report at [[WP:AIV]]. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 14:46, 1 November 2010 (UTC) ::Thanks, I got it. [[User:Managerarc| &lt;font face=&quot;Arial&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:Blue&quot;&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;b&gt;Managerarc&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]][[User talk:Managerarc|&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[talk]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] 15:27, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == [[United States]] == What is that rating box on the bottom of [[United States]], and what is the syntax (if allowed)? [[Special:Contributions/173.49.140.141|173.49.140.141]] ([[User talk:173.49.140.141|talk]]) 15:50, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :It looks as if it's [[:Category:Article Feedback Pilot]]. [[User:David Biddulph|David Biddulph]] ([[User talk:David Biddulph|talk]]) 15:57, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == [[User:Perseus, Son of Zeus]] == The coding on my account's userpage (Perseus, Son of Zeus) seems a bit messed up. The one I'm having trouble with is [[Template:Vandalism information|this one, centering it.]] Thanks! [[Special:Contributions/173.49.140.141|173.49.140.141]] ([[User talk:173.49.140.141|talk]]) 18:52, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Parameters for template &quot;user&quot; == Where can I find information on what &quot;en-2&quot; means in the following markup? &lt;nowiki&gt;{{User en-2}}&lt;/nowiki&gt; --[[User:Mortense|Mortense]] ([[User talk:Mortense|talk]]) 20:02, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :It indicates the user's level of fluency in the relevant language, in this case English at ''intermediate ability - enough for editing or discussions'' level, see [[WP:BABEL]].&amp;nbsp;–&amp;nbsp;[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 20:05, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :&quot;en-2&quot; is not a parameter in the template sense. It's simply part of the chosen name of the template {{tl|User en-2}} which is a completely different template from {{tl|User}}. &quot;en&quot; in the name doesn't have any special markup meaning to the software which handles {{tl|User en-2}} like any other template. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 20:19, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Logo entry for Wikipedia entry &quot;Linux Professional Institute&quot; == To Whom it May Concern: Please remove the logo for the &quot;Linux Professional Institute&quot; at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Professional_Institute This was changed today, November 1, 2010 by wikipedia user: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Iha9c The logo as published before was correct. This change was highly unprofessional, if not outright malicious. Furthermore, how do I register a complaint about User: Iha9c Looking forward to your prompt response. Scott Lamberton Director of Communications Linux Professional Institute http://www.lpi.org &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.49.33.151|69.49.33.151]] ([[User talk:69.49.33.151|talk]]) 20:25, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :It looks to me as though [[User:Iha9c|Iha9c]] was simply trying to supply the logo of ''another'' LPI - the [[Indonesian Premier League]] (or Liga Primera Indonesia). This wasn't the right way to go about it, but I don't believe it was unprofessional or malicious. Just about to restore the old version for the Linux Institute, and see whether this other logo is eligible for upload to a different filename [[User:Gonzonoir|Gonzonoir]] ([[User talk:Gonzonoir|talk]]) 20:33, 1 November 2010 (UTC) ::In fact, John of Reading's beaten me to the revert. Thanks John. [[User:Gonzonoir|Gonzonoir]] ([[User talk:Gonzonoir|talk]]) 20:36, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Screenplay Submission == I sent a screenplay to Hadley Films but got a broken link when I sent it. Is there a company by that name? I guess I'm just being careful. THank you very much. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.69.33.253|70.69.33.253]] ([[User talk:70.69.33.253|talk]]) 20:53, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :A Google search found http://www.hadleyfilms.com/ -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 20:56, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == finding a deleted page and un deleting it == How do I find a page that was deleted and undelete it? (it was a page about Amotz Shemi) Thanks Gili &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Gilifocht|Gilifocht]] ([[User talk:Gilifocht|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Gilifocht|contribs]]) 21:03, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :The deletion discussion is at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Amotz Shemi]]. From the comments there I don't think you'll be able to persuade an admin to undelete it for you. But there seems to be a copy of the text at [http://wikibin.org/articles/amotz-shemi.html Wikibin], an unrelated web site which keeps material that has been deleted from Wikipedia. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 21:14, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Deletion of an article == I went through page after page of Wikipedia and finally found the complex way in which to suggest the deletion of an article. I do not have the time nor the inclination to go through such an extensive process but I do want to tell you that the article on Buzzards is 100% wrong and should be deleted ASAP so that people reading it are not led into a morass of falsehoods and misinformation. Sincerely, Calius &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Calius12|Calius12]] ([[User talk:Calius12|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Calius12|contribs]]) 22:13, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Are you talking about the article [[Buzzard]]? It's unlikely that will get deleted, but if there is something wrong there, please indicate on the article's Discussion page what you find wrong. &lt;font family=&quot;Comic sans&quot;&gt;[[User:Corvus cornix|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;Corvus cornix&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sub&gt;''[[User talk:Corvus cornix|&lt;span style=&quot;color:Green&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/span&gt;]]''&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 22:14, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :I think the stuff in the 'new world' is not correct. None of it is referenced. The article is suppose to be a disambiguation? Regards, [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]])&lt;/sup&gt; 22:22, 1 November 2010 (UTC) = November 2 = == ref tags error == I was editing [[Smoking and Health: Report of the Advisory Committee to the Surgeon General of the United States]], and when I moved a citation around, another one that I didn't touch threw up a &quot;no closing &lt;/ref&gt; tag&quot; error. I triple checked it and can't find any reason it should be doing this. The citation is syntaxed properly. The one I did move has given me no problems. [[User:Somedaypilot|Somedaypilot]] ([[User talk:Somedaypilot|talk]]) 00:52, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Nevermind, I found it and fixed it. [[User:Somedaypilot|Somedaypilot]] ([[User talk:Somedaypilot|talk]]) 01:03, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == How to recover an account without the password? == I signed up for wikipedia years ago as Joel_Parker_Henderson with an email address that no longer works. How can I recover the account, for example get a new password and/or get an admin to update my email address? My email address is &lt;removed&gt; (Thank you!) &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.17.119.78|69.17.119.78]] ([[User talk:69.17.119.78|talk]]) 02:10, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Unfortunately, the only way to have your password reset is to use the same e-mail address that was set in its preferences; otherwise, we have no way to confirm that you are who you say you are. You should probably create a new account. Also, your e-mail address has been removed. -- [[User:Bk314159|Bk314159]] ([[User talk:Bk314159|Talk to me]] and [[Special:Contributions/Bk314159|find out what I've done]]) 02:34, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Strange glitch has been bothering me lately. == The standard toolbar (The one that goes Bold, Italic to &lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;ref /ref&gt;, {{ Cite }}&lt;/nowiki&gt;) occasionally loses all the buttons to the right of Horizontal line, and I need to refresh the edit page to get them back.--[[User:Occono|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;occono&lt;/font&gt;]] ([[User talk:Occono|talk]]) 02:56, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Please report this at [[WP:VPT]]. [[User:Mono|mⓞnⓞ]] 03:07, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::Will do, thanks. Sorry I keep coming here, it's a bad habit more then unawareness :( --[[User:Occono|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;occono&lt;/font&gt;]] ([[User talk:Occono|talk]]) 03:26, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Can I get a Wikipedia administrator to write an article about my professional gaming organization www.highrolleragaming.com == &lt;lengthy advertisement redacted&gt; Thats some info about us &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:HighRollersGaming|HighRollersGaming]] ([[User talk:HighRollersGaming|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/HighRollersGaming|contribs]]) 03:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :This username has been blocked. --[[User:Orangemike|&lt;font color=&quot;darkorange&quot;&gt;Orange Mike&lt;/font&gt;]] &amp;#x007C; [[User talk:Orangemike|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]] 13:44, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Yes you can; the place to make the request is [[Wikipedia:Requested articles]]. You will have to do this either anonymously or after registering a new account, however, as your current user name has been blocked as a violation of the [[WP:UN|user name policy]]. Note that some of the URLs you posted have been truncated with &quot;...&quot;, so please make sure you post the full URLs when adding your request. The volunteers at &quot;Requested articles&quot; will use these URLs to determine if your business is [[WP:N|notable]] enough for a Wikipedia article to be written. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 13:48, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::&lt;small&gt;Sorry, I thought there were signs of [[WP:N|notability]] there -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 13:50, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt; == Creating a wiki page == How can I submit to create a page for Joey Medina &quot; latin kings of comedy&quot; On top of all his success hbo showtime appearances he has recently obtained a syndicated fm show . www.joeymedinamorningshow.com www.963maxfm.com www.989maxfm.com www.1051maxfm.com I can be contacted at &lt;private contact information removed&gt; &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Runeria|Runeria]] ([[User talk:Runeria|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Runeria|contribs]]) 03:43, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; {{Quote box | quote = A Wizard is available to walk you through these steps. See the [[Wikipedia:Article wizard|Article Wizard]].''''' | source = Thank you. | width = 20% | align = right }} :Before creating an article, please [[Wikipedia:Searching|search]] Wikipedia first to make sure that an article does not ''already exist'' on the subject. Please also review a few of our relevant policies and guidelines with which all articles should comply. As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, articles must not contain [[Wikipedia:No original research|original research]], must be written from a [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|neutral point of view]], should [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|cite]] [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] which [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verify]] their content and must not contain [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons|unsourced, negative content about living people]]. :Articles must also demonstrate the [[Wikipedia:Notability|notability]] of the subject. Please see our subject specific guidelines for [[Wikipedia:Notability (people)|people]], [[Wikipedia:Notability (music)|bands and musicians]], [[Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies)|companies and organizations]] and [[Wikipedia:Notability (web)|web content]] and note that if you are closely associated with the subject, our [[Wikipedia:Conflict of interest|conflict of interest guideline]] strongly recommends against ''you'' creating the article. :If you still think an article is appropriate, see [[Wikipedia:Your first article]]. You might also look at [[Wikipedia:How to write a great article]] for guidance, and please consider taking a tour through the [[Wikipedia:Tutorial]] so that you know how to properly format the article before creation. An [[Wikipedia:Article wizard|Article Wizard]] is also available to walk you through creating an article.&lt;!-- Template:Creation --&gt;--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 04:33, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Citation questions and Google News &amp; Archive == {{Resolved|1=Thanks to Fuhghettaboutit.}} Hi, everyone. I have three related questions: # Is there any policy about when to use [[template:cite news|&quot;cite news&quot;]] versus [[template:cite web|&quot;cite web&quot;]] for an online news item published by a media outlet? I saw [[WP:Citation_templates]], but it didn't address the distinction explicitly. I always use &quot;cite news&quot;, but I see a lot of other people using &quot;cite web&quot;. # I'm noticing a lot of articles lately that are including cites to [[Google News]]. As most of you know, those links break very quickly, since Google News only aggregates web content from the past 30 days. I first learned of this myself from [[Template:Cite_news#Optional_parameters]], which says, in boldface, &quot;'''Do not post urls of Google hosted AP content, that content is transient. Use MSNBC, Yahoo, or another provider that keeps AP archives.'''&quot; But I was wondering whether there might be a more direct link to the same caveat, perhaps with a more complete discussion of the problem, or even a policy statment about this? # I understand that it ''is'' permissable to cite to [[Google News Archive | Google News &lt;u&gt;Archive&lt;/u&gt;]] ( external link [http://news.google.com/archivesearch here] ) for content that's not available on the web, e.g. for pre-internet era optically-scanned newspaper pages. If an editor wants to cite Google News Archive for this purpose, he should be use &quot;cite news&quot; rather than &quot;cite web&quot; to do so, and the link to Google should be placed in that template's optional &quot;archive url&quot; field, correct? I say so because although the &quot;cite web&quot; template also includes the &quot;archive url&quot; field, the plain &quot;url&quot; field is ''required'' in &quot;cite web&quot;. The editor using &quot;cite web&quot; in this case would have no alternative but to place the archive url in the plain &quot;url&quot; field. If he does so, he's likely to also neglect to fill in the optional &quot;archive url&quot; field correctly, will likely leave it blank, and this will generate a false impression in the link as it appears in the references section. Comments, please? Many thanks, &amp;nbsp;–&amp;nbsp;&lt;font face=&quot;Cambria&quot;&gt;[[User:Ohiostandard|&lt;font color=&quot;teal&quot;&gt;'''OhioStandard'''&lt;/font&gt;]] ([[User talk:Ohiostandard|talk]])&lt;/font&gt; 04:46, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :#I don't think there is any standard. Citation templates' main function is convenience and fostering uniformity in formatting citations, but their use at all [[Wikipedia:Citing sources#Citation templates and tools|is optional]]. If cite web is used where cite news could be, and vice-versa, but the use requires no extra attribution parameters that the other contains, I don't think it matters a great deal. Using the more appropriate seeming template may have some benefit in that another person coming along who wants to add further attribution in a way that is unsupported by the mismatched template will not have to switch anything. :#I don't personally remember ever seeing this discussed but I was able to dig up [[Wikipedia:External links/Noticeboard/Archive 1#Google &quot;Hosted News&quot;|this]], for what it's worth. The text to the template looks like it was boldy added rather than after a targeted discussion [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Cite_news/doc&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=294941649 diff]. :#My understanding of archive URLs is that it is not for links to sites that describe their content as &quot;archived&quot; but for links that you have actually archived against going dead. For example, by going to http://webcitation.org/ and archiving a URL, girding against linkrot which is so common for web citations. News stories that actually appeared in a newspaper never go dead, only the link to a online ''copy'' goes dead, because the paper was printed; the link is just a convenience so that users don't have to go to the library to verify content, but the story exists regardless. This is not true of web only sources. So, you can archive web content so that even if the original content goes to meet the dodos (where all the left socks reside), then the archived link saves the day. For an example of I think proper use of an archive url, see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masako_Katsura#cite_note-Memorial-106 here]. Cheers.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 11:56, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::Okay, that's helpful. It hadn't really occurred to me that the &quot;archive url&quot; fields might not be intended for services like Google News Archive, but perhaps just for &quot;one-off&quot; services like Webcitation. It does seem counterproductive, though, for links to google news to be so easy to add, and not to even have a very explicit policy about that. The links break in ( on average, I'd guesss ) in 2 - 3 weeks, and it can be difficult to replace the broken link with the intended target once that happens if a cite template that inludes, at least, the article title isn't used. But I realize - thanks for the link - that it would be hard to implement some automated way to &quot;catch&quot; links to Google News ''while they're in the process of being added''. Maybe I'll make some proposal at Village Pump about this when I can find the time. &amp;nbsp;–&amp;nbsp;&lt;font face=&quot;Cambria&quot;&gt;[[User:Ohiostandard|&lt;font color=&quot;teal&quot;&gt;'''OhioStandard'''&lt;/font&gt;]] ([[User talk:Ohiostandard|talk]])&lt;/font&gt; 17:33, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Siddha Yoga category == Can image files be deleted from a Category? Three files seem to have disappeared from Category:Siddha Yoga. They are Image:1-Lake-Nityananda(Fallsburg)-1, Image:1-Lake-Nityananda(Fallsburg)-2, 1-Lake-Nityananda(Fallsburg)- 3. Just a glitch perhaps? &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Sardaka|Sardaka]] ([[User talk:Sardaka|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sardaka|contribs]]) 8:58, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; :Hello Sardaka. First note that the category you are here about is at the Wikimedia Commons, [[Commons:Category:Siddha Yoga]]. There is no [[:Category:Siddha Yoga]] here (at Wikipedia), never has been, and we are a different (sister) website. The answer is yes, categories can be deleted from Commons images and this is what happened. See, for example, the removal of the category from [[:File:1-Lake-Nityananda(Fallsburg)-1.jpg]] at '''[http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:1-Lake-Nityananda%28Fallsburg%29-1.jpg&amp;action=history this page revision]'''. Cheers.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 10:28, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::(Hi, Fuhg!) Other editors will be much more familiar with the issue than I am, but relating to Wikipedia, rather than Commons, some contributors go out of their way to delete images from categories, believing that only articles belong in categories. I came across such an editor a while back, and objected. I even asked here at the help desk, as I recall, and I think without much response, although I can't find that in the archives now. [[Wikipedia:Help_desk/Archives/2010_June_14#Adding_Commons_images_to_en_Wiki_categories | This discussion]] from the archives might be of interest to you, as well. Of course, in the absence of any policy on Commons about this, you could [[WP:BOLD | be bold]] and revert their deletion from the category by looking at the category history if it's important to you that they be included. Best, &amp;nbsp;–&amp;nbsp;&lt;font face=&quot;Cambria&quot;&gt;[[User:Ohiostandard|&lt;font color=&quot;teal&quot;&gt;'''OhioStandard'''&lt;/font&gt;]] ([[User talk:Ohiostandard|talk]])&lt;/font&gt; 10:35, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::Hey OhioStandard. Long time no see! That's an interesting discussion, if ultimately unilluminating of what benefit there is in local categorization of Commons images (I'm not sure I see the point). I'm not much a categorization person but I'm not sure I see much point in categorizing local images either and [[WP:CAT]] says little on the subject. I wasn't focused before on the appropriateness of the removal, but now that I'm thinking about it, why would an image of a lake in New York be in a category for a Hindu spiritual movement? Ah... I see that an Ashram for the movement in the U.S. is in upstate New York, and I therefore presume it is nearby this lake; this is a tenuous connection. Sardaka I would agree with the removal of the category unless this New York State lake was somehow closely associated with the movement by third parties (not by those in the movement).--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 11:24, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::: Yes, I'm inclined to agree. The objection I had with the user I mentioned was when I noticed he was removing a category tag for something like &quot;abolition advocates&quot; from images of figures like Booker T. Washington; the category tags he was removing were definitely relevant. In retrospect I'd have to say that I'm not really familiar-enough with the issues to argue the point one way or the other, although your comments about keeping categorization on Commons seem persuasive. And, of course, it seems poor practice, as in this instance, to categorize a lake as part of a Hindu spiritual movement, unless closely identified with that movement, as per your criteria. Best, &amp;nbsp;–&amp;nbsp;&lt;font face=&quot;Cambria&quot;&gt;[[User:Ohiostandard|&lt;font color=&quot;teal&quot;&gt;'''OhioStandard'''&lt;/font&gt;]] ([[User talk:Ohiostandard|talk]])&lt;/font&gt; 14:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC) The lake in question is on the Siddha Yoga ashram property, which is why it was in that category. I can't see why anyone should have the right to delete pix like this. How do I reverse it? [[User:Sardaka|Sardaka]] ([[User talk:Sardaka|talk]]) 09:26, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == [[User:Perseus, Son of Zeus]] == The coding on my account's userpage (Perseus, Son of Zeus) seems a bit messed up. The one I'm having trouble [[Template:Vandalism information|with is this one]], centering it. Thanks! [[Special:Contributions/173.49.140.141|173.49.140.141]] ([[User talk:173.49.140.141|talk]]) 12:05, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :&lt;nowiki&gt;&quot;align=&lt;left&gt;&quot;&lt;/nowiki&gt; isn't going to work - you shouldn't be using angle-brackets around these parameters. I couldn't see how to float that template in the centre of the user page, though, so I suggest you ask the specialists at [[Wikipedia:User page design center/Help and collaboration/Help requests]]. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 13:25, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ==fix template pls== fix [[Template:Santana|this]] pls. thank you.--&lt;span style=&quot;color:Red3; background-color:#FF7F24;font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'&quot;&gt; [[User:GreatOrangePumpkin|♫Greatorangepumpkin♫]] &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:Black; background-color:#A4D3EE;font-family: 'Gigi'&quot;&gt;[[User talk:GreatOrangePumpkin|T]]&lt;/span&gt; 13:29, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :{{done}} - {{diff2|394375480|here}}. {{small|To do it, I went to the template's history page and checked a few diffs until I worked out where the problem started ({{diff2|394373003|it was here}}). I worked out what was wrong with that edit (missing &quot;&lt;nowiki&gt;}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&quot;) and re-added the &quot;&lt;nowiki&gt;}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&quot; in the correct place.}} [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 13:37, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == The Wiki for PETN Is Dangerously Complete == I was shocked to see the Wiki for PETN contained enough information on how to make and ignite the high explosive PETN. Anyone with even a basic scientific degree can follow successfully the guilines listed in this article to create an powerful explosive. Given that this article is available to anyone with internet access it presents an extreme risk of informing extremists of all types to have a new and highly available way to cuase massive damage. Is there an easy way to ask Wikipedia to remove posts like this as too detailed and complete in an area that could be used by extremists? &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/99.249.0.228|99.249.0.228]] ([[User talk:99.249.0.228|talk]]) 13:58, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :[[WP:NOTCENSORED]]. Wikipedia is not in the business of removing freely availible information from its website. Terrorism (and drug use, and pornography) doesn't end because Wikipedia contains articles on explosives (and drugs, and nude people). --[[User:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#000099&quot;&gt;Jayron&lt;/font&gt;]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;32&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' 15:30, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Images == I recently uploaded an image to [[Gossip Girl (season 4)]] but the image won't show up. Any suggestions? [[User:Jayy008|Jayy008]] ([[User talk:Jayy008|talk]]) 14:00, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :There appears to be a problem with the image thumbnail at [[:File:Gossipgirl.jpg]].&amp;nbsp;–&amp;nbsp;[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 14:06, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::Any idea how to fix it? [[User:Jayy008|Jayy008]] ([[User talk:Jayy008|talk]]) 15:18, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::Patience - it appears to be a server problem.&amp;nbsp;–&amp;nbsp;[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 15:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::Okay, thanks for the info. [[User:Jayy008|Jayy008]] ([[User talk:Jayy008|talk]]) 15:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == IMAGE DOESN'T APPEAR!!! == I don't know if my problem same as above, but the image was i talking about are all image that was made by my edit, for example, the cat image on my [[User:Adikhebat|USER PAGE]], The cat image doesn't appear in my computer.The same problem also happen on my userpage in Malay Wikipedia. The Adult Quote-tan image doesn't appear on my user page in malay version of Wikipedia.And when i see the image page,i found no problem with the image. And what confusing me now is the Images were not uploaded by me.The image doesn't appear if it was edited by me, i mean , for example when i create the template or article and put the images, the image will not show up even the images dont have any problem.Why this happen??! anyone help me!! !!!!!! &lt;small&gt;P/S:Sorry if my english suck&lt;/small&gt; --[[User:Adikhebat|Adikhebat]] ([[User talk:Adikhebat|talk]]) 14:59, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :There appears to be a server problem that is preventing display of some (maybe all) images/thumbnails. I am sure it will be resolved in due course.--[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 15:19, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::Thanks for the info --[[User:Adikhebat|Adikhebat]] ([[User talk:Adikhebat|talk]]) 15:55, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::{{done|Finally, The Problem has been solved}} --[[User:Adikhebat|Adikhebat]] ([[User talk:Adikhebat|talk]]) 16:41, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Portia de Rossi == Please list my favorite movie by Portia de Rossi on her page. Portia de Rossi was in the movie THE SHIFT in 2009. THANK YOU &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/63.225.203.118|63.225.203.118]] ([[User talk:63.225.203.118|talk]]) 15:23, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :[[WP:SOFIXIT|No one, except YOU, is more qualified to do this]]. As long as you have [[WP:CITE|proof]] that she acted in that movie, feel free to make any changes to the article as you wish. Wikipedia was built exactly this way, and no one here is more special than you. --[[User:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#000099&quot;&gt;Jayron&lt;/font&gt;]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;32&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' 15:29, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == More info for you to see Portia de Rossi credits in the movie THE SHIFT. == More info for you to see Portia de Rossi credits in the movie THE SHIFT. http://www.dyermovie.com/about/cast THANK YOU {{UnsignedIP|63.225.203.118}} == Too difficult == This has become way too difficult to use. I can't spend hours learing the myriad rules and regs. I have a regular job. Is posting maps and articles for the unemployed and at home types? &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/71.239.119.18|71.239.119.18]] ([[User talk:71.239.119.18|talk]]) 15:40, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Not really. I have a job too and edit here. Remember, everyone here is a volunteer and edits because they like to do so. If you find it too hard, then you may want to consider just reading the articles (or visiting another website). If you do want to stay, feel free to ask questions! That's what this desk is for and we're glad to help. &lt;font color=&quot;darkorange&quot;&gt;[[User:Tnxman307|TN]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;midnightblue&quot;&gt;&lt;big&gt;[[User talk:Tnxman307|X]]&lt;/big&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Tnxman307|Man]]&lt;/font&gt; 16:42, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::You won't be able to create articles or upload images, such as maps, without [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]]. After four days and ten edits your account will be [[WP:AUTOCONFIRM|autoconfirmed]] - the delay is to minimize the drive-by vandalism we unfortunately get from some unregistered users (although many are productive and valuable editors). [[WP:Article wizard|The Article wizard]] will walk you through the process of starting a new article, there's plenty of guidance available on [[WP:UI|uploading images]], and you can't break anything beyond repair. Just take on board [[WP:PILLARS|the basic principles]] and contribute where you can. [[User:Karenjc|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;Ka&lt;/font&gt;]][[User_talk:Karenjc|renjc]] 20:57, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == NOTE TO JAYRON32 == Dear Jayron32, Can you please post the info I show below... as it took me hours at this site to find the right link to ask for the new info to be added. I'm highly challenged when it comes to using the computer and navigating websites. Thank you again [[Special:Contributions/63.225.203.118|63.225.203.118]] ([[User talk:63.225.203.118|talk]]) 15:41, 2 November 2010 (UTC) Please list my favorite movie by Portia de Rossi on her page. Portia de Rossi was in the movie THE SHIFT in 2009. THANK YOU —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.225.203.118 (talk) 15:23, 2 November 2010 (UTC) No one, except YOU, is more qualified to do this. As long as you have proof that she acted in that movie, feel free to make any changes to the article as you wish. Wikipedia was built exactly this way, and no one here is more special than you. --Jayron32 15:29, 2 November 2010 (UTC) [edit] More info for you to see Portia de Rossi credits in the movie THE SHIFT. More info for you to see Portia de Rossi credits in the movie THE SHIFT. http://www.dyermovie.com/about/cast THANK YOU —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.225.203.118 (talk) :{{done}}. Thanks for the reference. --[[User:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#000099&quot;&gt;Jayron&lt;/font&gt;]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;32&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' 16:21, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == References in section titles == Do references belong in a section title? Example: section &quot;Top projects&quot; in [[Kickstarter|Kickstarter]]. --[[User:Mortense|Mortense]] ([[User talk:Mortense|talk]]) 16:56, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :References don't belong in section titles and have been removed from there in [[Kickstarter]] ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kickstarter&amp;oldid=394405044 old version before removal]). [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 17:39, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ==Formatting== I followed the instructions carefully but am still having troubles formatting this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Carofiglio I have inserted references but the final page hides some paragraphs. I get no errors or any useful suggestions from the help page.Can it have to do with the fact that the article is in English but includes references in Italian? Can anyone please help me? &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Aminervi|Aminervi]] ([[User talk:Aminervi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Aminervi|contribs]]) 17:03, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :I've fixed up the page some. Does this fix the issues you saw? &lt;font color=&quot;darkorange&quot;&gt;[[User:Tnxman307|TN]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;midnightblue&quot;&gt;&lt;big&gt;[[User talk:Tnxman307|X]]&lt;/big&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Tnxman307|Man]]&lt;/font&gt; 17:17, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Looking to make a wikipedia page but worried about slander/defamation == The company I look for (a collection agency) is thinking about making a wikipedia page listing our history, etc. but we are worried about additional content that may be added. No one likes debt collection agencies and there could be a lot of unneeded negative comments added. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/12.238.215.230|12.238.215.230]] ([[User talk:12.238.215.230|talk]]) 17:54, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :First, ensure you don't run into conflict of interest. See [[WP:COI]]. Then, understand that Wikipedia is not a social website or internet listing. It is an encyclopedia. See [[WP:NOT]]. What makes your collection agency notable? See [[WP:NOTABLE]]. Finally, if there is bad press about your company, that bad press will likely be reflected in the article. It is not slander. It is not defamation. It is what Wikipedia does: provide information found in reliable resources. -- [[User:Kainaw|&lt;font color='#ff0000'&gt;k&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color='#cc0033'&gt;a&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color='#990066'&gt;i&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color='#660099'&gt;n&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color='#3300cc'&gt;a&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color='#0000ff'&gt;w&lt;/font&gt;]][[User talk:Kainaw|&amp;trade;]] 18:02, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::This is a classic case where you should read [[WP:LUC]] before going any further. Once an article exists, other people are free to add properly cited information to it. Your company should not be creating articles about itself anyway, but if you are concerned about retaining editorial control over what is written about your firm, starting a Wikipedia article is probably not the best idea. [[User:Karenjc|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;Ka&lt;/font&gt;]][[User_talk:Karenjc|renjc]] 20:36, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Right to vanish == I request my current and earlier user accounts to [[WP:VANISH|vanish]] - see my [[User talk:Cayden|talk page]]. They have been retired for some time, but I would like them totally deleted. [[User:Cayden|Cayden]] ([[User talk:Cayden|talk]]) 19:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Your pages have been deleted. Just stop editing and you're set. Godspeed. &lt;font color=&quot;darkorange&quot;&gt;[[User:Tnxman307|TN]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;midnightblue&quot;&gt;&lt;big&gt;[[User talk:Tnxman307|X]]&lt;/big&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Tnxman307|Man]]&lt;/font&gt; 19:39, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::Thanks for deleting some of the pages, but I don't think you understand that I wanted both accounts to totally vanish with any user, usertalk and subpages, contributions, and anything else. I'd like them to completely vanish. [[User:Cayden|Cayden]] ([[User talk:Cayden|talk]]) 20:03, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::Your contributions are part of the historical record and cannot be vanished. I will delete your talk page archives and anything else in your userspace. --[[User:Orangemike|&lt;font color=&quot;darkorange&quot;&gt;Orange Mike&lt;/font&gt;]] &amp;#x007C; [[User talk:Orangemike|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]] 20:17, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::Thanks. I'm sure in the past that was possible, but perhaps things have changed. [[User:Cayden|Cayden]] ([[User talk:Cayden|talk]]) 20:26, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Quick AFD help == [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion#AFD_Jenn_Rivell With this here]. It's been a while since I seriously used Wikipedia for things like this. Thanks! --[[User:Endlessdan|Endlessdan]] ([[User talk:Endlessdan|talk]]) 20:15, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Fixed it. You substed where you shouldn't have. --[[User:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#000099&quot;&gt;Jayron&lt;/font&gt;]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;32&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' 20:23, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::Also, don't forget to add it to the list at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2010 November 2]]. If you need help, I can do this for you as well. --[[User:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#000099&quot;&gt;Jayron&lt;/font&gt;]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;32&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' 20:25, 2 November 2010 (UTC) Can you do this for me? I used to be a pro at AFD noms but have since slipped in time. Thanks again. --[[User:Endlessdan|Endlessdan]] ([[User talk:Endlessdan|talk]]) 20:40, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Flags not showing up == The Flag of Nigeria is not working. &lt;font face=&quot;Courier&quot;&gt;[[User:Velociraptor888|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;'''Velo'''&lt;/font&gt;]][[User talk:Velociraptor888|&lt;font color=&quot;purple&quot;&gt;'''ciraptor'''&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:Contributions/Velociraptor888|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;'''888'''&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/font&gt; 21:26, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Other people have reported problems with pictures today; there may be a server problem. I can see the flag at the top right of the [[Nigeria]] article, if that's any help. Look again tomorrow? -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 21:44, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::Could you please elaborate more? --[[User:Monterey Bay|Monterey Bay]] ([[User talk:Monterey Bay|talk]]) 21:47, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::Are you asking me or Velociraptor to elaborate? I'm referring to ukexpat's comment in [[#IMAGE_DOESN.27T_APPEAR.21.21.21|this section]]; I don't have any more detail than that. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 21:52, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::I am referring to Velociraptor's comment in which he indicated the flag of Nigeria isn't working. --[[User:Monterey Bay|Monterey Bay]] ([[User talk:Monterey Bay|talk]]) 21:58, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Professor22 looking for input on NOR == I'm trying to figure out how to edit an article on your page with incorrect information. I have two scholarly resources to validate what I'm saying but you completely blocked me from being able to edit anything at all. I'm a professor of Microeconomics at the University of Las Vegas Nevada. I'm logged in as a user and have NOT violated your wikipedia &quot;no original research&quot; rules. You can verify everything I'm saying. Sure, there's nothing neutral about the stance I'm taking but it's not an issue that suppose to be neutral. It's pretty black and white and involves money. As it stands, your page is distributing false information. I can easily log into another computer and hide the IP address :) Lets be adults about this. Why don't you tell me exactly which part of the &quot;no original research&quot; policy I violated... Here's the resources for the article I want to post: Mankiw, Gregory (2004) &quot;Principles of Microeconomics&quot; Harvard University. Miller, Roger Leroy (2001) &quot;The Economics of Public Issues&quot; Institute for University Studies in Arlington, Texas. {{unsigned|Professor22}} - &lt;small&gt;reposted by [[User:Onorem|Onorem]][[Special:Contributions/Onorem|♠]][[User talk:Onorem|Dil]] 21:42, 2 November 2010 (UTC) after initial post blanked the help desk&lt;/small&gt; :I have to sign off for now, but for clarity's sake am including a link to the edit in question, which I reverted numerous times as original research, unencyclopedic in tone, and non-neutral commentary. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Illegal_immigration&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=394451588]. [[User:JNW|JNW]] ([[User talk:JNW|talk]]) 21:46, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::I sympathise. It's an argument presumably sourced from a book, but without page numbers and given the style of the edit, virtually impossible to verify - see [[WP:VERIFY]]. It reads like an op ed piece - shorthand, 'our country', 'guy', ALL CAPS, etc. You wouldn't expect to find this in a print encyclopedia and it doesn't belong in this encyclopedia. Just tell us, in more or less formal language, what Mankiw and Miller say about illegal immigration. I've tried to check Mankiw online and can't find anything in his book that mentions illegal immigration other than to say that people tend to focus on it. If they don't specifically discuss illegal immigration, applying anything they say about economics to the subject of illegal immigration is what we call original research, see [[WP:OR]]. [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 21:58, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ==Getting logged out== Hey, I have two accounts with wikipedia and can't access either one. I haven't been blocked or anything, and when I log in it's successful, but then when I go to any other page, I'm logged out again. I have no idea why. Could someone please give me any advice on this at my email address &lt;removed&gt;?? PS, my two accounts are fiveby5 and angelsinthearchitecture. I only need to be able to access one, the second I just created after I couldn't get into the first. :See [[Help:Logging in#Login issues and problems]], especially the sub-section &quot;I get logged out just after logging in&quot;. I have removed your email address to protect your privacy; replies to Help Desk questions are made here. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 21:56, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Multiple images == I've tried to use the template {{tl|multiple images}}, but I can't get it to work as I might like. I have a verticle list of images and I want them to become thinner and shorter. I change the &lt;tt&gt;width&lt;/tt&gt; parameter, but that only changes the width of the images, and ''not'' the width of the box containing all of the images and the text. Take a look at [[User talk:Fly by Night/Medals]] and see if you can find a way to fix it. I want it to be more discreet. It looks great with &lt;tt&gt;width = 100&lt;/tt&gt;, but that's far too wide. It's bigger than my user page. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;&quot;&gt;— [[User:Fly by Night|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Segoe print&quot;&gt;'''''Fly by Night'''''&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;font color=&quot;#000000&quot;&gt;([[User talk:Fly by Night|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Segoe print&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/span&gt;]])&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 23:45, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :I [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Fly_by_Night/Medals&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=394485991 took a stab], converting it to a table. However, I'm not great at this coding and I'm sure someone can either tweak what I've done or offer another way, but I see that your previous post about this from 3 days ago was never responded so I gave it a try. I'm afraid the images no longer link to specific pages but just to the image pages themselves, and I'm not sure how to fix that. Is it better? Feel free to revert of course.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 00:27, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::Actually I just figured out how to link, which was very easy, with the simply parameter &lt;code&gt;|link=&lt;/code&gt; (If I remember, we didn't used to be able to do this with normal image markup).--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 00:46, 3 November 2010 (UTC) = November 3 = == Image fail == Why doesn't [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donington_Park&amp;diff=394471767&amp;oldid=394039792 this] edit work? (A new graphic has been created, but does not display ... even if I look at the page source, and copy and paste the link, the image won't display). What have I missed? [[User:Guinness2702|Guinness]] ([[User talk:Guinness2702|talk]]) 00:27, 3 November 2010 (UTC) :There is currently a thumbnail display problem for some images, it seems. (See also this discussion: [[Wikipedia:VPT#Image_scalers]]) &lt;font style=&quot;font-family: 'Times New Roman'&quot;&gt;[[User:Intelligentsium|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#013220&quot;&gt;Intelligent&lt;/span&gt;]]'''[[User_talk:Intelligentsium|&lt;span style=&quot;color:Black&quot;&gt;sium&lt;/span&gt;]]'''&lt;/font&gt; 00:36, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::I don't know why it fixed it but I tried reducing the number of pixels moderately and it works now.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 00:38, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::: Odd, but thanks :) at least I know it's not something *I've* done ;) [[User:Guinness2702|Guinness]] ([[User talk:Guinness2702|talk]]) 00:47, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::::I hereby designate you as the sitewide scapegoat for all technical problems. You should apologize to each of our {{NUMBEROFUSERS}} users.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 00:51, 3 November 2010 (UTC) :::::I'll do Aaron A. Aaronson, but I'll ask him to pass it on to the next one :) [[User:Guinness2702|Guinness]] ([[User talk:Guinness2702|talk]]) 01:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::::::&lt;nowiki&gt;:-)&lt;/nowiki&gt; Of course, [[User:!!]] is our [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3APrefixIndex&amp;prefix=&amp;namespace=2 first user], alphabetically speaking.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 01:57, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == Qantity of Categories in english Wikipedia? == I am currently in the process of writing a paper about Wikipedia Categories. Ive done most of my research using Wikipedia API to get approximate numbers and to analyze categories structure. But i also want to know how many categories does Wikipedia has at the moment, and i just cant find this information. I could, of course, just install a previous Wikipeda DB dump and make a query to cout all categories, but that is an overkill. And using API for that would take too much time and strain Wikipedia servers. So i am asking this question here: How many cartegories does Wikipedia have and is there a place where this info is posted or could be extracted from? &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:DSUmanskiy|DSUmanskiy]] ([[User talk:DSUmanskiy|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/DSUmanskiy|contribs]]) 00:58, 3 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Normally, you would use the &quot;magicword&quot; &lt;nowiki&gt;{{PAGESINNS:name}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;, replacing &quot;name&quot; with the namespace you wish to return, so you would replace it with Category. However, this feature appears to be disabled, per [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words#Variables this page]. You may be able to get the devs to activate it briefly, or possibly you could find other ways to do it. Try asking at [[WP:VPT|The Technical Village Pump]], which is patroled by people who know how to do this stuff. --[[User:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#000099&quot;&gt;Jayron&lt;/font&gt;]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;32&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' 02:21, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::Thank you for your answer:) I will look into that. The magicwords seem pretty awesome and i think they might do the job. If i figure out how to use them that is:) And persuade the devs to enable them. --[[User:DSUmanskiy|DSUmanskiy]] ([[User talk:DSUmanskiy|talk]]) 11:31, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == Image problem with new page == I have created a new article [[Ignatius Cooper Grubb]] and uploaded an image [[:File:Ignatius Cooper Grubb.jpg]]. I can't get the image to display appropriately in the article. 1) it is too large, and 2) it seems to have some extraneous info surrounding the image. I have reviewed other articles with images and tried techniques I observed (like |thumb|), but nothing seems to work. Appreciate some guidance, the article is otherwise about complete. [[User:LynnSGrubb|LynnSGrubb]] ([[User talk:LynnSGrubb|talk]]) 04:15, 3 November 2010 (UTC) :{{Done}}; by the looks of it, images placed in [[Template:Infobox officeholder]] do not need all that fancy coding around it. All you need to do is place the file name in the &quot;image&quot; parameter, and then specify the size in the &quot;imagesize&quot; parameter below it. Note that there seems to be some problems as of current that involve sized images not rendering correctly; for instance, when I re-size your image as 250px instead of 200px in the article, it causes the image to not show up for me. It's basically just a problem with the servers. This should be fixed in due time, &lt;small&gt;I think&lt;/small&gt;. &lt;b&gt;~&lt;i&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#07517C&quot;&gt;[[User:SuperHamster|Super]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#6FA23B&quot;&gt;[[User:SuperHamster|Hamster]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt; &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:SuperHamster|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/SuperHamster|Contribs]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:37, 3 November 2010 (UTC) :{{ec}} The usage of images in infoboxes can be idiosyncratic. Usually (but not always) the image = (or sometimes imagename = ) parameter is looking for the image name WITHOUT any brackets or the File: prefix. Secondly, the imagesize = parameter is optional sometimes, but in this case it looks like you need to enter a resonably small imagesize (i used 200px) to make it work in this infobox. Like every other part of Wikipedia, infobox templates developed ''organicly'' and often independently, so often it isn't all that intuitive how they will work. If you check how I fixed your problem, it will usually work on ''most'' infoboxes, but be prepared for it to get screwy once in a while. Trial and error and experience will generally get you good results (its what I did to fix this problem). (post-ec) Looks like I editconflicted both here and at the article with SuperHamster. We pretty much did exactly the same thing. --[[User:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#000099&quot;&gt;Jayron&lt;/font&gt;]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;32&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' 04:43, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::I've removed the image, since it was taking up quite a bit of space! [[User:Arctic Night|'''&lt;font color=&quot;#3399FF&quot;&gt;Arctic&lt;/font&gt;''']] [[User talk:Arctic Night|'''&lt;font color=&quot;#000000&quot;&gt;Night&lt;/font&gt;''']] 07:13, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == [[Persons of National Historic Significance]] == Does anybody know how to get an '&lt;nowiki&gt;align=&quot;center&quot;&lt;/nowiki&gt;' tag to apply to a whole column in a table? I would hate to have to keep typing that lot out every time I create a new row... [[User:Arctic Night|'''&lt;font color=&quot;#3399FF&quot;&gt;Arctic&lt;/font&gt;''']] [[User talk:Arctic Night|'''&lt;font color=&quot;#000000&quot;&gt;Night&lt;/font&gt;''']] 06:18, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == Religion of Firoz Gandhi == I want to ask was Firoz Gandhi &quot;Muslim&quot; by religion and later on he changed his religion? Please elaborate it. Thanks....... &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/59.164.9.74|59.164.9.74]] ([[User talk:59.164.9.74|talk]]) 08:55, 3 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Hi, I think the [[Wikipedia:Reference desk|Reference desk]] would probably be the most appropriate forum for asking this question. [[User:Arctic Night|'''&lt;font color=&quot;#3399FF&quot;&gt;Arctic&lt;/font&gt;''']] [[User talk:Arctic Night|'''&lt;font color=&quot;#000000&quot;&gt;Night&lt;/font&gt;''']] 08:58, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == merging siren articles == I am trying to merge/redirect the following articles (all small and unable to advance): ACA P-15 ACA Cyclone ACA Hurricane ASC T-135 to the List_of_sirens_built_by_Alerting_Communicators_of_America article. Can anyone help me out with this? Everytime I try to redirect, it just doesn't work. --[[User:JustInn014|JustInn014]] ([[User talk:JustInn014|talk]]) 09:09, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == rev list == my name is willem kroesbergen and i made a short page about myself. i tried to add a footnote, but i get the following error: Cite error: There are &lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;ref&gt; tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{Reflist}} template or a &lt;references/&gt; tag; see the help page.&lt;/nowiki&gt; but with the information wikipedia gives, i am not able to make a reflist. please can you help me how to edit my page willem kroesbergen to ad the following footnote: JSTOR: Early Music, Vol.22,no3(Aug., 1994)pp.482-495 it will be helpful to ad some information to make it easier to solve this problem for others. thank you. willem kroesbergen {{unsigned|Kick030|10:16, 3 November 2010}} :I see that another editor has fixed the problem. The error message included a link to a [[Help:Cite errors/Cite error refs without references|page]] that tries to explain how to fix the problem. You might like to read [[Help:Footnotes]] as an introduction. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 10:26, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == Edit war == In article Sriracha, I keep adding my edit with appropriate citation and rationale for the edit. However, another user has initiated an edit war with me and refusing to provide any comment on why he/she is removing my edit. [[Special:Contributions/99.231.241.146|99.231.241.146]] ([[User talk:99.231.241.146|talk]]) 11:21, 3 November 2010 (UTC) :'''Several''' editors have undone your sketchy edits. Your edits are not being accepted because they are not from a reliable source. Go do something productive and stop warring.--[[User:Kintetsubuffalo|Chris (クリス • フィッチ)]] ([[User talk:Kintetsubuffalo|talk]]) 11:24, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::Note that your edit contains no source. I request a third-party to evaluate the merit of my source compared to kintetsubuffalo's (lack of) source. [[Special:Contributions/99.231.241.146|99.231.241.146]] ([[User talk:99.231.241.146|talk]]) 11:27, 3 November 2010 (UTC) :::I'm a non-involved third-party. I have a couple of points: :::*As far as I can see, no one provided an [[WP:Edit summary|edit summary]] when they reverted 99.231: in my view this edit war could have been prevented had someone taken the time to communicate with 99.231. :::*99.231, [http://www.huyfong.com/no_frames/company.htm this] is not a good source. It simply shows that this company produced the sauce: it does not say what you are claiming, specifically it does not say that this sauce is Vietnamese. Just because an American company produces a sauce and has a Vietnamese founder does not make a sauce Vietnamese. :::All of you need to discuss this [[Talk:Sriracha_sauce#Edit_war_between_myself_and_kintetsubuffalo|further]] and stop reverting. If you continue this edit war I'll [[WP:GOLDLOCK|protect]] the article until such time as you can discuss this issue and gain [[WP:CON|consensus]] for any proposed changes. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 11:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::::Fair enough. Can we simply have both claims with {{tlx|fact}} requests? This, I believe, is the most fair and reasonable resolution to the dispute, which the other editors seem absolutely hostile to. [[Special:Contributions/99.231.241.146|99.231.241.146]] ([[User talk:99.231.241.146|talk]]) 11:37, 3 November 2010 (UTC) :::::If both claims are disputed, then it makes sense to a {{tlx|fact}} tag to both (i.e. to Thai and Vietnamese origin claims). To my mind the Thai origin claim seems very reasonable, however if it's disputed (as it is here) then tagging it and then finding a source is the way to go. I would hope that sources for either or both claims could be found, and that will be hastened by adding {{tlx|fact}} tags. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 11:41, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::::::There's nothing in dispute here. Two English sources already cited in the articles said it's of Thai origin. One source in Thai said it's first marketed by a Thai Company.[[User:Suredeath|Suredeath]] ([[User talk:Suredeath|talk]]) 11:43, 3 November 2010 (UTC) :::::(e/c) I don't think adding a claim to [[Sriracha sauce]] with a {{fact}} at the same time is a good idea; either find a good source, or don't add the claim, but don't add the claim and make someone else find the source. I agree with TFWOR about the poor behaviour here: not only not using edit summaries when reverting the IP and not taking the issue with the IP to either the IP's talk page or the article talk page, but also (when the matter is brought to the talk page by the IP) saying &quot;I feel no need to justify myself to an IP&quot;. Err? [[User:Bencherlite|Bencherlite]][[User talk:Bencherlite|&lt;i&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Talk&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/i&gt;]] 11:44, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::::::Ah, screw it. I have several editors bullying me, and IP user puts me at a disadvantage. It's just a damn sauce; let them have this internet article. [[Special:Contributions/99.231.241.146|99.231.241.146]] ([[User talk:99.231.241.146|talk]]) 11:45, 3 November 2010 (UTC) :::::&lt;small&gt;(ec x 5)&lt;/small&gt;It is widely-known and long-accepted that Sriracha sauce is named after the Thai town - it is already sauced, er, sourced. If you believe there is a Vietnamese equivalent or a Vietnamese origin, that is clearly contentious, so you need to discuss it on the article's Talk page first and present some evidence. -- [[User:Boing! said Zebedee|Boing! said Zebedee]] ([[User talk:Boing! said Zebedee|talk]]) 11:46, 3 November 2010 (UTC) * I've [[WP:GOLDLOCK|protected]] the article, as the edit-warring continued. I note Boing! said Zebedee's comments, and I'll revisit the article in a wee while and reconsider whether full-protection is the best option here (and in the meantime any admin is free to remove the protection without discussing this with me, if they feel it's sensible to do so). Whether the article remains protected or not, all parties need to communicate better, and the idea that IPs are second-class citizens here is unacceptable. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 11:51, 3 November 2010 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Sriracha&diff=394566751</id> <title>Talk:Sriracha</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Sriracha&diff=394566751"/> <updated>2010-11-03T11:46:07Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: /* Edit war between myself and kintetsubuffalo */ WP:GOLDLOCK <hr /> <div>{{WikiProject Thailand|class=Start|importance=Low}} {{WikiProject Food and drink|class=start|importance=mid}} ==Image== The image is terrible. There is no need for a hand to be in the picture and the bottle is at an awkward angle. Since this sauce is supposedly so popular, someone upload a better piture. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/92.62.126.33|92.62.126.33]] ([[User talk:92.62.126.33|talk]]) 16:38, 16 March 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :I have a bottle, i suppose i can make a better one? [[User:MrMacMan|&lt;font color=&quot;darkorange&quot; face=&quot;Times&quot;&gt;'''MrMacMan'''&lt;/font&gt;]][[User talk:MrMacMan|&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;font color= &quot;blue&quot;&gt;''' Talk '''&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 23:03, 16 March 2010 (UTC) ==Advertising== Advertising parts removed from article. Redundancies removed from article. Generally cleaned up. Please mark as no longer advertising/spam. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/208.120.141.96|208.120.141.96]] ([[User talk:208.120.141.96|talk]]) 16:29, 15 December 2009 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; ==Pronunciation== ศ รี ร า ช า&lt;br/&gt; s ri r a ch a [[User:Mike hayes|Mike Hayes]] ([[User talk:Mike hayes|talk]]) 07:49, 26 February 2009 (UTC) :I'm afraid you're mistaken. This is the same word as the name of the district, and would be Si Racha according to RTGS. Thai words, especially those loaned from Sanskrit, are often pronounced differently from spelled. --[[User:Paul_012|Paul_012]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Paul_012|talk]])&lt;/sup&gt; 16:28, 27 February 2009 (UTC) == MESS! == This has to be one of the most poorly-worded entries on Wiki! I already know what the stuff is, yet after reading this mess, I am left scratching my head. I am new to wiki. Is it considered rude to rewrite from scratch? I hate to be critical; surely the original poster is not a native English speaker. &lt;small&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/64.48.78.23|64.48.78.23]] ([[User talk:64.48.78.23|talk]]) 01:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; == scoville units == Anyone know how many [[Scoville Units]] this sauce has? &lt;small&gt;—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Foodmarket|Foodmarket]] ([[User talk:Foodmarket|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Foodmarket|contribs]]) 04:00, 2 January 2007 (UTC).&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned --&gt; I wanted to know this too... [[User:Pvt. Green|Pvt. Green]] 22:42, 5 July 2007 (UTC) :Hard to say, I think. Each company and brand may and most likely uses different peppers and different concentrations. I'd guess the scoville units vary. [[User:Tyx|tyx]] 17:26, 27 August 2007 (UTC) ::I think the Scoville units listed in the article, &quot;It averages a scoville rating of 2,000&quot; has to be incorrect, at least for &quot;true&quot; Sriracha (green cap, etc). From my experience. I can literally drink McIlhenny's Tobasco (2,500-5,000) with basically no effects, yet any more than a pea-sized drop of Sriracha (and a small pea at that) has me reaching for a drink. Either I'm getting some really good stuff, or this article is very wrong. [[User:209.153.128.248|209.153.128.248]] &lt;small&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/209.153.128.248|209.153.128.248]] ([[User talk:209.153.128.248|talk]]) 16:35, 4 September 2007 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; == SPIRACHA == My brother is addicted to this stuff he goes through a huge bottle every month by himself! I go to the markets and restaurants and I have seen the name &quot;sPiracha&quot; and not sriracha. Has anyone seen the use of this name before? Because if so we should add a link directing the search word of spiracha to sriracha sauce. I will try and find that brand of chili sauce that either is imitating the name or is a lost in translation thing or just another typo by the manufacturer. --[[User:Neoking|Neoking]] 07:13, 8 June 2007 (UTC) :Does the sPiracha have a green cap? This would be a novel way to get around the classic &quot;cap test&quot;. [[User:209.153.128.248|209.153.128.248]] &lt;small&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/209.153.128.248|209.153.128.248]] ([[User talk:209.153.128.248|talk]]) 16:37, 4 September 2007 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; * I vaguely recalled having seen the sPiracha in a restaurant a few years back. Except for the name, it looks identical to the Huy Fong brand - down to the rooster. A copy, apparently. Amazon still has a link for it (as of 10/21/07) but the name on the bottle in the photo says 'sRiracha'. &lt;small&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.123.150.22|70.123.150.22]] ([[User talk:70.123.150.22|talk]]) 17:48, 21 October 2007 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; ::Sriracha was trademarked by Huy Fong, so other makers have to circumvent it by using these silly names. Even the Thai original has to use &quot;Sriraja&quot; instead when they export it. I'm sure a lot of people in Thailand are quite pissed about it.[[User:Suredeath|Suredeath]] 04:09, 13 November 2007 (UTC) LOL, Suredeath. I once read about Nissin trademarking (or patenting) some curry-making process in India, with a similar result. At least with Sriracha, there's a third country (US) involved -- imagine if Huy Fong had usurped the name in Thailand proper! Which is basically what Nissin did. [[Special:Contributions/64.48.78.23|64.48.78.23]] ([[User talk:64.48.78.23|talk]]) 01:44, 6 June 2008 (UTC) == Is this &quot;Cock sauce&quot;? == I've heard people refer to a hot sauce as &quot;Cock sauce&quot;. Seeing the rooster and scoville rating, that'd be my guess, but it's hard to know for sure. [[User:Mbourgon|Mbourgon]] ([[User talk:Mbourgon|talk]]) 18:40, 17 April 2008 (UTC) :It is a term that's used to refer to Sriracha sauce. The page [[Cock sauce]] redirects to this article. [[User:Gh5046|Gh5046]] ([[User talk:Gh5046|talk]]) 18:42, 17 April 2008 (UTC) [[Special:Contributions/203.185.189.131|203.185.189.131]] ([[User talk:203.185.189.131|talk]]) 03:21, 3 September 2008 (UTC) Would anyone consider contacting the manufacturer directly? Why mok about non native english speakers writing here when the experts about this sauce seem to reside in the US? PAP[[Special:Contributions/203.185.189.131|203.185.189.131]] ([[User talk:203.185.189.131|talk]]) 03:21, 3 September 2008 (UTC) Yes this is &quot;cock sauce.&quot; I've also heard &quot;rooster booster.&quot; [[User:BonzoESC|BonzoESC]] ([[User talk:BonzoESC|talk]]) 15:36, 25 January 2010 (UTC) ==Trademark== The word &quot;Sriracha&quot; does not seem to be specifically trademarked. Huy Fong has trademarked &quot;Tuong Ot Sriracha&quot;, which does literally mean Sriracha Chili Sauce, but only as presented on the label. (The USPTO states ''sic'' &quot;NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE &quot;TUONG OT SRIRACHA&quot; APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN&quot;). V. Thai Food Product Co., Ltd. has a trademarked product with &quot;Tuong Ot Sriracha&quot; in its name [http://tarr.uspto.gov/tarr?regser=serial&amp;entry=78244847 here]. [[User:Ando228|Ando228]] ([[User talk:Ando228|talk]]) 16:12, 30 September 2008 (UTC) :Sounds interesting, can you provide some information on how you learned about that, like a news article or press release? I'm assuming that you're referring to &quot;Golden Mountain Sriracha Panich&quot;. I'll look around too. [[User:Ando228|Ando228]] ([[User talk:Ando228|talk]]) 16:16, 1 October 2008 (UTC) =='''Pronunciation'''== Spoke to a rep of Huy Fong some years ago, asked how to pronounce, he said &quot;Shri-ra-cha&quot; ...the &quot;Shri&quot; is pronounced a little &quot;loose or windy at the first part&quot; (my words not his, describing the sound he made). It is not see-ra-cha or seer-ra-cha.[[Special:Contributions/66.142.142.52|66.142.142.52]] ([[User talk:66.142.142.52|talk]]) 16:52, 5 May 2009 (UTC) &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/66.142.142.52|66.142.142.52]] ([[User talk:66.142.142.52|talk]]) 16:50, 5 May 2009 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; Huy Fong is not the authority on how to pronouce Sri Racha.[[User:Suredeath|Suredeath]] ([[User talk:Suredeath|talk]]) 21:23, 18 June 2009 (UTC) ==Technique== I added a section on how a technique on how to avoid the bottle spraying sriracha (cock sauce) when opening. I consider this the appropriate venue for this warning/information as I have both gotten some in my eye and had it burn and water for 10+ minutes, as well as stained what were otherwise beautiful white painted cupboards with this tasty sauce. I use this sauce at least once daily and I find it hard to believe that my input would be totally and completely deleted because it was written in the 2nd person and considered a 'how-to'. If the style of my writing and the person it was written in really offends somebody else that much shouldn't they take it upon themselves to present the same information in a better way - instead of simply discarding it? Yes Laws (user) I'm looking at you. I hope you can find it in your heart to put that warning back in somehow lest somebody else (or even you) suffer burning eyes and stained paint that could have been avoided. &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Innovati|Innovati]] ([[User talk:Innovati|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Innovati|contribs]]) 06:14, 27 July 2009 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Unfortunately, apart from Wikipedia's policy of [[WP:NOTHOWTO|not being a manual, guidebook, textbook, or scientific journal]], even if your warning was rewritten in a factual style, it would still need to be proven to be in accordance with [[Wikipedia:Verifiability]]. First-hand personal experience alone generally isn't enough to warrant inclusion of a piece of information in Wikipedia. If you could find reliable sources mentioning the hazard of sauce-bottle-opening, your edit would fare much better in being accepted. --[[User:Paul_012|Paul_012]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Paul_012|talk]])&lt;/sup&gt; 10:33, 27 July 2009 (UTC) ::Sorry Innovati - it wasn't anything personal. I use this stuff daily, and I've even wiped my eyes before washing my hands, throwing me into a fit, haha. If you can find some [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] that mention this occurrence, it can be worked in. As far as other edits go, the format is in the third person. As someone who came from another wiki, one that was video game wiki, I had a hard time adjusting to it at first. I just reminded myself to substitute 'one' for 'you' whenever I was writing. Good luck. Visit my talk page with any questions. [[User:Law|&lt;font color=&quot;Navy&quot;&gt;'''Law'''&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;sub&gt; [[User talk:Law|&lt;font color=&quot;Navy&quot;&gt;type!&lt;/font&gt;]] [[Special:Contributions/Law|&lt;font color=&quot;Navy&quot;&gt;snype?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sub&gt; 10:40, 27 July 2009 (UTC) ::Well, I could easily video this occurrence and upload that elsewhere (like Youtube or Vimeo). Would that be enough for it? Maybe I ought to make a warning video anyway so people there don't suffer the same fate as my poor right eye did :-/ [[User:Innovati|Innovati]] ([[User talk:Innovati|talk]]) 14:04, 27 July 2009 (UTC) :::In response to your question, probably not. You might want to take a look at [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources]]. --[[User:Paul_012|Paul_012]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Paul_012|talk]])&lt;/sup&gt; 07:06, 2 August 2009 (UTC) ==Edit war between myself and kintetsubuffalo== It seems like I'm talking to myself here. Nobody else is providing any explanation whatsoever for their edits. [[Special:Contributions/99.231.241.146|99.231.241.146]] ([[User talk:99.231.241.146|talk]]) 11:18, 3 November 2010 (UTC) :a) I feel no need to justify myself to an IP. :b) company websites are not reliable sources. :c) several editors have reverted you now, not just me. :d) new comments go at the bottom of talkpages. :Your edits are not being accepted here because they are sketchy. Go do something productive and stop warring.--[[User:Kintetsubuffalo|Chris (クリス • フィッチ)]] ([[User talk:Kintetsubuffalo|talk]]) 11:23, 3 November 2010 (UTC) I guess I should have handled it better. First, of all, this isn't the first time this article has been through edit war about its origin, I was heavily invested in this article. So I'm in a bad mood when this thing happened again. First of all, you should READ the article first. The existing sources already clarify its nation of origin. I see no reason why company website should be taken over them. [[User:Suredeath|Suredeath]] ([[User talk:Suredeath|talk]]) 11:39, 3 November 2010 (UTC) Chris Fitch, show me where Wikipedia established IP users as second-class Wikipedians. [[Special:Contributions/99.231.241.146|99.231.241.146]] ([[User talk:99.231.241.146|talk]]) 11:41, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ===[[WP:GOLDLOCK|Article protected]]=== I've applied [[WP:GOLDLOCK|full-protection]] to the article (I reverted to a pre-[[WP:EW|edit-war]] version of the article as well, secure in the knowledge that I've reverted to [[:meta:The Wrong Version|The Wrong Version]]). You all have a week to sort this out. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 11:46, 3 November 2010 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sriracha&diff=394566549</id> <title>Sriracha</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sriracha&diff=394566549"/> <updated>2010-11-03T11:44:07Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: adding {{pp-dispute|expiry={{subst:#time:F j, Y|+1 week}}|small=yes}} (TW) <hr /> <div>{{pp-dispute|expiry=November 10, 2010|small=yes}} {{otheruses4|Asian hot sauce|pages with similar names|Si Racha (disambiguation)}} '''Sriracha''' ({{lang-th|ศรีราชา}} {{IPA-all|sǐrātɕʰā|}}) is the name for a Thai [[hot sauce]] named after the coastal city of [[Si Racha]], in the [[Chonburi Province]] of central [[Thailand]], where it was first produced for dishes served at local seafood restaurants. It is a paste of [[chili pepper]]s, vinegar, garlic, sugar and salt. Sriracha is a common condiment in many Asian restaurants and increasingly found in American and European homes. Traditional Thai Sriracha tends to be tangier, sweeter, and thicker than non-Thai, which is often thinner in texture. The puree {{pron-en|sɪˈrɑːtʃə}} is primarily produced by [[Huy Fong Foods]]&lt;ref name=&quot;NYT Crow&quot;&gt;{{cite news|url=http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/20/dining/20united.html|title=A Chili Sauce to Crow About |last=Edge|first=John|date=May 19, 2009|publisher=New York Times|accessdate=2009-05-20}}&lt;/ref&gt; and is different from the Thai paste from which it takes its name. In Thailand, Sriracha is frequently used as a dipping sauce, particularly for [[seafood]]. Beyond its native boundaries Sriracha serves as a general-purpose hot sauce, appearing as a condiment for Vietnamese [[phở]], a topping for sushi rolls, and glaze for [[Buffalo wing|Buffalo Chicken Wings]]. The first mass marketed Thai-produced Sriracha is made by Sriracha Panich ({{lang-th|ศรีราชาพานิช}})&lt;ref&gt;http://www.bangkokbiznews.com/jud/taste/20080402/news.php?news=column_26133777.html&lt;/ref&gt;. Sriracha Panich was taken over by the Thai Theparos Food Products Public Company Limited of Thailand which continues to market the sauce under the label &quot;Golden Mountain Sriracha Panich&quot;. ''Panich'' is Thai for commercial. Sriracha was popularized in America by Huy Fong Foods via their ''Tương Ớt Sriracha''.&lt;ref name=&quot;NYT Crow&quot; /&gt; This sauce was originally aimed at Asian-Americans.&lt;ref name=&quot;NYT Crow&quot; /&gt; It is known as rooster sauce or cock sauce, due to the rooster featured on its label.&lt;ref name=&quot;NYT Crow&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Gourmet&quot;&gt;{{cite news|url=http://www.gourmet.com/food/2008/02/sriracha|title=A ROOSTER’S WAKE-UP CALL |last=Sytsma|first=Alan|date=Feb 08, 2008|publisher=Gourmet Magazine|accessdate=2010-02-11}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=http://honoluluweekly.com/restaurants/2010/01/bloody-good-times/|title=Bloody good times|last=Seeto|first=Margot|date=20 January 2010|publisher=[[Honolulu Weekly]]|accessdate=16 February 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==See also== * [[List of hot sauces]] ==References== {{reflist|2}} ==External links== * [http://www.huyfong.com/ Huy Fong Foods Inc.] * [http://gmsauce.com/SrirajaE.html Golden Mountain brand &quot;Sriraja Panich&quot;] {{Cuisine of Thailand}} {{Hot sauces}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Sriracha Sauce}} [[Category:Hot sauces]] [[Category:Thai cuisine]] [[de:Sriracha-Sauce]] [[es:Sriracha]] [[sv:Sriracha]] [[zh:是拉差香甜辣椒醬]]</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sriracha&diff=394566543</id> <title>Sriracha</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sriracha&diff=394566543"/> <updated>2010-11-03T11:44:03Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Protected Sriracha sauce: Full protection: dispute, Edit war over Thai/Vietnamese origins of source. using TW ([edit=sysop] (expires 11:44, 10 November 2010 (UTC)) [move=sysop] (expires 11:44, 10 November 2010 (UTC))) <hr /> <div>{{otheruses4|Asian hot sauce|pages with similar names|Si Racha (disambiguation)}} '''Sriracha''' ({{lang-th|ศรีราชา}} {{IPA-all|sǐrātɕʰā|}}) is the name for a Thai [[hot sauce]] named after the coastal city of [[Si Racha]], in the [[Chonburi Province]] of central [[Thailand]], where it was first produced for dishes served at local seafood restaurants. It is a paste of [[chili pepper]]s, vinegar, garlic, sugar and salt. Sriracha is a common condiment in many Asian restaurants and increasingly found in American and European homes. Traditional Thai Sriracha tends to be tangier, sweeter, and thicker than non-Thai, which is often thinner in texture. The puree {{pron-en|sɪˈrɑːtʃə}} is primarily produced by [[Huy Fong Foods]]&lt;ref name=&quot;NYT Crow&quot;&gt;{{cite news|url=http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/20/dining/20united.html|title=A Chili Sauce to Crow About |last=Edge|first=John|date=May 19, 2009|publisher=New York Times|accessdate=2009-05-20}}&lt;/ref&gt; and is different from the Thai paste from which it takes its name. In Thailand, Sriracha is frequently used as a dipping sauce, particularly for [[seafood]]. Beyond its native boundaries Sriracha serves as a general-purpose hot sauce, appearing as a condiment for Vietnamese [[phở]], a topping for sushi rolls, and glaze for [[Buffalo wing|Buffalo Chicken Wings]]. The first mass marketed Thai-produced Sriracha is made by Sriracha Panich ({{lang-th|ศรีราชาพานิช}})&lt;ref&gt;http://www.bangkokbiznews.com/jud/taste/20080402/news.php?news=column_26133777.html&lt;/ref&gt;. Sriracha Panich was taken over by the Thai Theparos Food Products Public Company Limited of Thailand which continues to market the sauce under the label &quot;Golden Mountain Sriracha Panich&quot;. ''Panich'' is Thai for commercial. Sriracha was popularized in America by Huy Fong Foods via their ''Tương Ớt Sriracha''.&lt;ref name=&quot;NYT Crow&quot; /&gt; This sauce was originally aimed at Asian-Americans.&lt;ref name=&quot;NYT Crow&quot; /&gt; It is known as rooster sauce or cock sauce, due to the rooster featured on its label.&lt;ref name=&quot;NYT Crow&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Gourmet&quot;&gt;{{cite news|url=http://www.gourmet.com/food/2008/02/sriracha|title=A ROOSTER’S WAKE-UP CALL |last=Sytsma|first=Alan|date=Feb 08, 2008|publisher=Gourmet Magazine|accessdate=2010-02-11}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=http://honoluluweekly.com/restaurants/2010/01/bloody-good-times/|title=Bloody good times|last=Seeto|first=Margot|date=20 January 2010|publisher=[[Honolulu Weekly]]|accessdate=16 February 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==See also== * [[List of hot sauces]] ==References== {{reflist|2}} ==External links== * [http://www.huyfong.com/ Huy Fong Foods Inc.] * [http://gmsauce.com/SrirajaE.html Golden Mountain brand &quot;Sriraja Panich&quot;] {{Cuisine of Thailand}} {{Hot sauces}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Sriracha Sauce}} [[Category:Hot sauces]] [[Category:Thai cuisine]] [[de:Sriracha-Sauce]] [[es:Sriracha]] [[sv:Sriracha]] [[zh:是拉差香甜辣椒醬]]</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sriracha&diff=394566458</id> <title>Sriracha</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sriracha&diff=394566458"/> <updated>2010-11-03T11:43:26Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Reverted to revision 389644019 by Funnyfarmofdoom; rv to The Wrong Version, prior to protecting article. (TW) <hr /> <div>{{otheruses4|Asian hot sauce|pages with similar names|Si Racha (disambiguation)}} '''Sriracha''' ({{lang-th|ศรีราชา}} {{IPA-all|sǐrātɕʰā|}}) is the name for a Thai [[hot sauce]] named after the coastal city of [[Si Racha]], in the [[Chonburi Province]] of central [[Thailand]], where it was first produced for dishes served at local seafood restaurants. It is a paste of [[chili pepper]]s, vinegar, garlic, sugar and salt. Sriracha is a common condiment in many Asian restaurants and increasingly found in American and European homes. Traditional Thai Sriracha tends to be tangier, sweeter, and thicker than non-Thai, which is often thinner in texture. The puree {{pron-en|sɪˈrɑːtʃə}} is primarily produced by [[Huy Fong Foods]]&lt;ref name=&quot;NYT Crow&quot;&gt;{{cite news|url=http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/20/dining/20united.html|title=A Chili Sauce to Crow About |last=Edge|first=John|date=May 19, 2009|publisher=New York Times|accessdate=2009-05-20}}&lt;/ref&gt; and is different from the Thai paste from which it takes its name. In Thailand, Sriracha is frequently used as a dipping sauce, particularly for [[seafood]]. Beyond its native boundaries Sriracha serves as a general-purpose hot sauce, appearing as a condiment for Vietnamese [[phở]], a topping for sushi rolls, and glaze for [[Buffalo wing|Buffalo Chicken Wings]]. The first mass marketed Thai-produced Sriracha is made by Sriracha Panich ({{lang-th|ศรีราชาพานิช}})&lt;ref&gt;http://www.bangkokbiznews.com/jud/taste/20080402/news.php?news=column_26133777.html&lt;/ref&gt;. Sriracha Panich was taken over by the Thai Theparos Food Products Public Company Limited of Thailand which continues to market the sauce under the label &quot;Golden Mountain Sriracha Panich&quot;. ''Panich'' is Thai for commercial. Sriracha was popularized in America by Huy Fong Foods via their ''Tương Ớt Sriracha''.&lt;ref name=&quot;NYT Crow&quot; /&gt; This sauce was originally aimed at Asian-Americans.&lt;ref name=&quot;NYT Crow&quot; /&gt; It is known as rooster sauce or cock sauce, due to the rooster featured on its label.&lt;ref name=&quot;NYT Crow&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Gourmet&quot;&gt;{{cite news|url=http://www.gourmet.com/food/2008/02/sriracha|title=A ROOSTER’S WAKE-UP CALL |last=Sytsma|first=Alan|date=Feb 08, 2008|publisher=Gourmet Magazine|accessdate=2010-02-11}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=http://honoluluweekly.com/restaurants/2010/01/bloody-good-times/|title=Bloody good times|last=Seeto|first=Margot|date=20 January 2010|publisher=[[Honolulu Weekly]]|accessdate=16 February 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==See also== * [[List of hot sauces]] ==References== {{reflist|2}} ==External links== * [http://www.huyfong.com/ Huy Fong Foods Inc.] * [http://gmsauce.com/SrirajaE.html Golden Mountain brand &quot;Sriraja Panich&quot;] {{Cuisine of Thailand}} {{Hot sauces}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Sriracha Sauce}} [[Category:Hot sauces]] [[Category:Thai cuisine]] [[de:Sriracha-Sauce]] [[es:Sriracha]] [[sv:Sriracha]] [[zh:是拉差香甜辣椒醬]]</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Help_desk&diff=394566231</id> <title>Wikipedia:Help desk</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Help_desk&diff=394566231"/> <updated>2010-11-03T11:41:31Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: /* Edit war */ Sounds reasonable <hr /> <div> {{/Header}}&lt;div style=&quot;position: absolute; top: 6.4em; right: 1.0em; border: 1px solid #a9a9a9; background: #fff;&quot; class=&quot;boilerplate metadata plainlinks&quot;&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[#footer|&amp;nbsp;Skip to bottom&amp;nbsp;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/div&gt; __TOC__ &lt;!-- This page is for the answers you need to know about using Wikipedia! --&gt; &lt;!-- For knowledge questions, please use the [[Wikipedia:Reference Desk]]! --&gt; &lt;!-- --&gt; &lt;!-- Ask your question at the bottom of this page. It will be answered shortly. --&gt; &lt;!-- --&gt; {{Wikipedia:Help_desk/Archives/2010 October 31}} = November 1 = == How do we get the article reviewed after being marked &quot;like an advertisement?&quot; == Kindly assist because the article is still being marked &quot;like an ad&quot; &amp; lack of reference even after it is edited with sufficient references. Our photos has been approved by WikiCommon but the article is pending. How do we know if it should be edited again to get it published? Thank you. &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Klmarathon|Klmarathon]] ([[User talk:Klmarathon|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Klmarathon|contribs]]) 09:54, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :There is no formal review procedure, and tags are not removed automatically. If you believe you have improved the article so that the tag is no longer appropriate, you can remove the tag. The worst that can happen is that somebody disagrees and puts it back. Make sure you give an informative Edit summary (eg Removed tag as article has been improved). --[[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 10:30, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :The article in question was [[User:Klmarathon/Standard Chartered KL Marathon]]; [[User:Klmarathon]] has been blocked as a spamusername. --[[User:Orangemike|&lt;font color=&quot;darkorange&quot;&gt;Orange Mike&lt;/font&gt;]] &amp;#x007C; [[User talk:Orangemike|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]] 12:51, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == stolen Unncovered Painting from the New York City Area for a novel == I am writing a novel about stolen art in the 1960's in New York City Area. Iwas trying to locaate information on any solen art that wa not recoverred &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/68.215.117.79|68.215.117.79]] ([[User talk:68.215.117.79|talk]]) 01:21, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :[[:Category:Art crime]] would be a good place to start exploring; you could also ask at the [[WP:RDH|Humanities Reference Desk]] to see if anyone had any ideas. --[[User:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#000099&quot;&gt;Jayron&lt;/font&gt;]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;32&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' 01:54, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Advanced search == Under the old interface, &quot;Search&quot; gave the choice of &quot;search&quot; and &quot;go&quot;. The former option seems to me now to be effectively missing. Utter pain in the butt if I want to search broadly for a term when there happens to be a Wikipedia article with that name. Offhand, the only way around this that I can see is if I explicitly navigate to [[Special:Search]], which is pretty obscure. Is there some simpler way to do this that I'm missing, or has this capability now been effectively restricted to the highly savvy? &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] ([[User talk:Jmabel|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jmabel|contribs]]) 02:35, 1 November 2010&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; :When you type a phrase into the search box, you should be getting a drop down menu - at the very bottom of that drop down menu is a link that says &quot;containing...&quot;, along with the text you typed in the search box. Clicking on that will perform a search, rather than going directly to the article. &lt;b&gt;~&lt;i&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#07517C&quot;&gt;[[User:SuperHamster|Super]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#6FA23B&quot;&gt;[[User:SuperHamster|Hamster]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt; &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:SuperHamster|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/SuperHamster|Contribs]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:49, 1 November 2010 (UTC) ::You can also search with an empty box to easily get to [[Special:Search]]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 03:32, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Creating wikipedia for an actress == Greetings, I am an actress and want to be in Wikipedia. How do I correctly create an entry about my career? Thank you [[User:TheRealMilDred|TheRealMilDred]] ([[User talk:TheRealMilDred|talk]]) 04:57, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :Well, first you have to be notable, as evidenced by coverage in third-party [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. After that, see [[Wikipedia:Creating an article]]. '''[[User:Grsz11|&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;Grsz&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Grsz11|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;11&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;''' 05:06, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :Creating an article about yourself is strongly discouraged by [[Wikipedia:Autobiography]]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 05:26, 1 November 2010 (UTC) ::One of the many things which Wikipedia is not is an organ for [[WP:PROMOTION|self-promotion]]. If you have already been noticed in multiple independent sources then Wikipedia wishes to record that. If you have not, then Wikipedia does not, at present, want an article on you. Sorry. --[[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 10:33, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Please Take This Into Consideration: == I believe that Philosophy should be listed among the prime subject names under the reading tab in your homepage. &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Angelo.medina|Angelo.medina]] ([[User talk:Angelo.medina|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angelo.medina|contribs]]) 05:34, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :A [[Portal:Philosophy|philosophy portal]] exists, if that's what you are looking for. [[User:Goodvac|&lt;span style=&quot;text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em;&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;'''''Goodvac'''''&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:Goodvac|&lt;font color=&quot;Blue&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/font&gt;]]) 05:38, 1 November 2010 (UTC) ::I guess it refers to the currently 8 portals linked at the top right of the [[Main Page]]. It appears from [[Talk:Main Page/Archive 69#Adding Philosophy to the main portals list]] that [[Portal:Philosophy]] has failed to gain support in the past. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 08:45, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Task force, work group and subproject == [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Council|WikiProject Council]]'s directory currently labels sub-groups of WikiProjects as either ''task forces'', ''work groups'', or ''subprojects''. Are there any distinctions between these three labels, for example in breadth and depth of coverage and administration? Or are they merely synonyms of one another? Thanks. [[User:AngChenrui|A&lt;small&gt;NG&lt;/small&gt;]][[User talk:AngChenrui|C&lt;small&gt;HENRUI&lt;/small&gt;]] &lt;sub&gt;[[WP:MSE]]&lt;/sub&gt;[[User:AngChenrui/BS|♨]] 09:07, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == violation droits d'auteur == bonjour, j'ai rédigé un article sur la région Picardie et le tourisme en Picardie. Les éléments de cet article sont tirés en du site www.picardietourisme-acteurs.com pour lequel je suis rédacteur en chef. Il n'y a donc aucun problème d'utilisation de ces informations. Merci de rendre accessible ce nouvel article et de supprimer le message sur l'utilisation des données. Vincent &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/80.214.253.143|80.214.253.143]] ([[User talk:80.214.253.143|talk]]) 11:04, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Si vous souhaitez autoriser Wikipedia d'utiliser le contenu de votre site web, s'il vous plaît suivez les instructions décrites sur [[WP:IOWN|cette page]]. Ici, sur la Wikipédia en anglais, tous les contenus des articles doivent être en anglais: si vous essayez de contribuer à la Wikipédia en francaise, s'il vous plaît visitez [http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Pages_soup%C3%A7onn%C3%A9es_de_violation_de_copyright#Attente_d.27autorisation_sur_OTRS cette page]. :If you want to give Wikipedia permission to use the contents of your site, please follow the steps outlined at [[WP:IOWN|this guide to donating copyright materials]]. NB that here on the English language Wikipedia, all article content must be in English. If you are trying to contribute to the French language Wikipedia (fr.wikipedia.org), please read [http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Pages_soup%C3%A7onn%C3%A9es_de_violation_de_copyright#Attente_d.27autorisation_sur_OTRS this page]. [[User:Gonzonoir|Gonzonoir]] ([[User talk:Gonzonoir|talk]]) 11:33, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == reset my page == I am Bruce Schreffler @ &lt;email removed&gt; and need to reset my pass word. can you help? &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/68.248.101.86|68.248.101.86]] ([[User talk:68.248.101.86|talk]]) 14:00, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :The only advice I can give is that you should look at [[Help:Logging in]]. Posting your email address here won't help, and will only attract spam, so I have removed it. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 14:07, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Where to report copyright violators? == I want to know that if any unregistered user indulges in a clear copyright violation, then what warnings should be given and after how many warnings, the user can be reported, so that an IP ban may be imposed on them. Also, which is the appropriate place to report such users. Thanks. - [[User:Managerarc| &lt;font face=&quot;Arial&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:Blue&quot;&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;b&gt;Managerarc&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]][[User talk:Managerarc|&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[talk]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] 14:36, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :Have a look at [[WP:Copyright problems]] and [[WP:Contact us/Article problem/Copyright]]. -- [[User:Bk314159|Bk314159]] ([[User talk:Bk314159|Talk to me]] and [[Special:Contributions/Bk314159|find out what I've done]]) 14:40, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :(edit conflict) If you find a copyright violation, the most urgent action is to protect the project by removing or blanking the text, following the instructions at [[Wikipedia:Copyright problems]]. The warning {{tp|uw-copyright}} is suitable for a first-time violation. If the same user continues to violate copyrights after being warned, this constitutes vandalism (see [[WP:VANDTYPES]]) and the usual series of escalating warnings can be followed by a report at [[WP:AIV]]. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 14:46, 1 November 2010 (UTC) ::Thanks, I got it. [[User:Managerarc| &lt;font face=&quot;Arial&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:Blue&quot;&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;b&gt;Managerarc&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]][[User talk:Managerarc|&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[talk]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] 15:27, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == [[United States]] == What is that rating box on the bottom of [[United States]], and what is the syntax (if allowed)? [[Special:Contributions/173.49.140.141|173.49.140.141]] ([[User talk:173.49.140.141|talk]]) 15:50, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :It looks as if it's [[:Category:Article Feedback Pilot]]. [[User:David Biddulph|David Biddulph]] ([[User talk:David Biddulph|talk]]) 15:57, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == [[User:Perseus, Son of Zeus]] == The coding on my account's userpage (Perseus, Son of Zeus) seems a bit messed up. The one I'm having trouble with is [[Template:Vandalism information|this one, centering it.]] Thanks! [[Special:Contributions/173.49.140.141|173.49.140.141]] ([[User talk:173.49.140.141|talk]]) 18:52, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Parameters for template &quot;user&quot; == Where can I find information on what &quot;en-2&quot; means in the following markup? &lt;nowiki&gt;{{User en-2}}&lt;/nowiki&gt; --[[User:Mortense|Mortense]] ([[User talk:Mortense|talk]]) 20:02, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :It indicates the user's level of fluency in the relevant language, in this case English at ''intermediate ability - enough for editing or discussions'' level, see [[WP:BABEL]].&amp;nbsp;–&amp;nbsp;[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 20:05, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :&quot;en-2&quot; is not a parameter in the template sense. It's simply part of the chosen name of the template {{tl|User en-2}} which is a completely different template from {{tl|User}}. &quot;en&quot; in the name doesn't have any special markup meaning to the software which handles {{tl|User en-2}} like any other template. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 20:19, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Logo entry for Wikipedia entry &quot;Linux Professional Institute&quot; == To Whom it May Concern: Please remove the logo for the &quot;Linux Professional Institute&quot; at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Professional_Institute This was changed today, November 1, 2010 by wikipedia user: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Iha9c The logo as published before was correct. This change was highly unprofessional, if not outright malicious. Furthermore, how do I register a complaint about User: Iha9c Looking forward to your prompt response. Scott Lamberton Director of Communications Linux Professional Institute http://www.lpi.org &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.49.33.151|69.49.33.151]] ([[User talk:69.49.33.151|talk]]) 20:25, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :It looks to me as though [[User:Iha9c|Iha9c]] was simply trying to supply the logo of ''another'' LPI - the [[Indonesian Premier League]] (or Liga Primera Indonesia). This wasn't the right way to go about it, but I don't believe it was unprofessional or malicious. Just about to restore the old version for the Linux Institute, and see whether this other logo is eligible for upload to a different filename [[User:Gonzonoir|Gonzonoir]] ([[User talk:Gonzonoir|talk]]) 20:33, 1 November 2010 (UTC) ::In fact, John of Reading's beaten me to the revert. Thanks John. [[User:Gonzonoir|Gonzonoir]] ([[User talk:Gonzonoir|talk]]) 20:36, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Screenplay Submission == I sent a screenplay to Hadley Films but got a broken link when I sent it. Is there a company by that name? I guess I'm just being careful. THank you very much. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.69.33.253|70.69.33.253]] ([[User talk:70.69.33.253|talk]]) 20:53, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :A Google search found http://www.hadleyfilms.com/ -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 20:56, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == finding a deleted page and un deleting it == How do I find a page that was deleted and undelete it? (it was a page about Amotz Shemi) Thanks Gili &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Gilifocht|Gilifocht]] ([[User talk:Gilifocht|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Gilifocht|contribs]]) 21:03, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :The deletion discussion is at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Amotz Shemi]]. From the comments there I don't think you'll be able to persuade an admin to undelete it for you. But there seems to be a copy of the text at [http://wikibin.org/articles/amotz-shemi.html Wikibin], an unrelated web site which keeps material that has been deleted from Wikipedia. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 21:14, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Deletion of an article == I went through page after page of Wikipedia and finally found the complex way in which to suggest the deletion of an article. I do not have the time nor the inclination to go through such an extensive process but I do want to tell you that the article on Buzzards is 100% wrong and should be deleted ASAP so that people reading it are not led into a morass of falsehoods and misinformation. Sincerely, Calius &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Calius12|Calius12]] ([[User talk:Calius12|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Calius12|contribs]]) 22:13, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Are you talking about the article [[Buzzard]]? It's unlikely that will get deleted, but if there is something wrong there, please indicate on the article's Discussion page what you find wrong. &lt;font family=&quot;Comic sans&quot;&gt;[[User:Corvus cornix|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;Corvus cornix&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sub&gt;''[[User talk:Corvus cornix|&lt;span style=&quot;color:Green&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/span&gt;]]''&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 22:14, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :I think the stuff in the 'new world' is not correct. None of it is referenced. The article is suppose to be a disambiguation? Regards, [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]])&lt;/sup&gt; 22:22, 1 November 2010 (UTC) = November 2 = == ref tags error == I was editing [[Smoking and Health: Report of the Advisory Committee to the Surgeon General of the United States]], and when I moved a citation around, another one that I didn't touch threw up a &quot;no closing &lt;/ref&gt; tag&quot; error. I triple checked it and can't find any reason it should be doing this. The citation is syntaxed properly. The one I did move has given me no problems. [[User:Somedaypilot|Somedaypilot]] ([[User talk:Somedaypilot|talk]]) 00:52, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Nevermind, I found it and fixed it. [[User:Somedaypilot|Somedaypilot]] ([[User talk:Somedaypilot|talk]]) 01:03, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == How to recover an account without the password? == I signed up for wikipedia years ago as Joel_Parker_Henderson with an email address that no longer works. How can I recover the account, for example get a new password and/or get an admin to update my email address? My email address is &lt;removed&gt; (Thank you!) &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.17.119.78|69.17.119.78]] ([[User talk:69.17.119.78|talk]]) 02:10, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Unfortunately, the only way to have your password reset is to use the same e-mail address that was set in its preferences; otherwise, we have no way to confirm that you are who you say you are. You should probably create a new account. Also, your e-mail address has been removed. -- [[User:Bk314159|Bk314159]] ([[User talk:Bk314159|Talk to me]] and [[Special:Contributions/Bk314159|find out what I've done]]) 02:34, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Strange glitch has been bothering me lately. == The standard toolbar (The one that goes Bold, Italic to &lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;ref /ref&gt;, {{ Cite }}&lt;/nowiki&gt;) occasionally loses all the buttons to the right of Horizontal line, and I need to refresh the edit page to get them back.--[[User:Occono|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;occono&lt;/font&gt;]] ([[User talk:Occono|talk]]) 02:56, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Please report this at [[WP:VPT]]. [[User:Mono|mⓞnⓞ]] 03:07, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::Will do, thanks. Sorry I keep coming here, it's a bad habit more then unawareness :( --[[User:Occono|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;occono&lt;/font&gt;]] ([[User talk:Occono|talk]]) 03:26, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Can I get a Wikipedia administrator to write an article about my professional gaming organization www.highrolleragaming.com == &lt;lengthy advertisement redacted&gt; Thats some info about us &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:HighRollersGaming|HighRollersGaming]] ([[User talk:HighRollersGaming|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/HighRollersGaming|contribs]]) 03:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :This username has been blocked. --[[User:Orangemike|&lt;font color=&quot;darkorange&quot;&gt;Orange Mike&lt;/font&gt;]] &amp;#x007C; [[User talk:Orangemike|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]] 13:44, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Yes you can; the place to make the request is [[Wikipedia:Requested articles]]. You will have to do this either anonymously or after registering a new account, however, as your current user name has been blocked as a violation of the [[WP:UN|user name policy]]. Note that some of the URLs you posted have been truncated with &quot;...&quot;, so please make sure you post the full URLs when adding your request. The volunteers at &quot;Requested articles&quot; will use these URLs to determine if your business is [[WP:N|notable]] enough for a Wikipedia article to be written. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 13:48, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::&lt;small&gt;Sorry, I thought there were signs of [[WP:N|notability]] there -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 13:50, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt; == Creating a wiki page == How can I submit to create a page for Joey Medina &quot; latin kings of comedy&quot; On top of all his success hbo showtime appearances he has recently obtained a syndicated fm show . www.joeymedinamorningshow.com www.963maxfm.com www.989maxfm.com www.1051maxfm.com I can be contacted at &lt;private contact information removed&gt; &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Runeria|Runeria]] ([[User talk:Runeria|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Runeria|contribs]]) 03:43, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; {{Quote box | quote = A Wizard is available to walk you through these steps. See the [[Wikipedia:Article wizard|Article Wizard]].''''' | source = Thank you. | width = 20% | align = right }} :Before creating an article, please [[Wikipedia:Searching|search]] Wikipedia first to make sure that an article does not ''already exist'' on the subject. Please also review a few of our relevant policies and guidelines with which all articles should comply. As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, articles must not contain [[Wikipedia:No original research|original research]], must be written from a [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|neutral point of view]], should [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|cite]] [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] which [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verify]] their content and must not contain [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons|unsourced, negative content about living people]]. :Articles must also demonstrate the [[Wikipedia:Notability|notability]] of the subject. Please see our subject specific guidelines for [[Wikipedia:Notability (people)|people]], [[Wikipedia:Notability (music)|bands and musicians]], [[Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies)|companies and organizations]] and [[Wikipedia:Notability (web)|web content]] and note that if you are closely associated with the subject, our [[Wikipedia:Conflict of interest|conflict of interest guideline]] strongly recommends against ''you'' creating the article. :If you still think an article is appropriate, see [[Wikipedia:Your first article]]. You might also look at [[Wikipedia:How to write a great article]] for guidance, and please consider taking a tour through the [[Wikipedia:Tutorial]] so that you know how to properly format the article before creation. An [[Wikipedia:Article wizard|Article Wizard]] is also available to walk you through creating an article.&lt;!-- Template:Creation --&gt;--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 04:33, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Citation questions and Google News &amp; Archive == {{Resolved|1=Thanks to Fuhghettaboutit.}} Hi, everyone. I have three related questions: # Is there any policy about when to use [[template:cite news|&quot;cite news&quot;]] versus [[template:cite web|&quot;cite web&quot;]] for an online news item published by a media outlet? I saw [[WP:Citation_templates]], but it didn't address the distinction explicitly. I always use &quot;cite news&quot;, but I see a lot of other people using &quot;cite web&quot;. # I'm noticing a lot of articles lately that are including cites to [[Google News]]. As most of you know, those links break very quickly, since Google News only aggregates web content from the past 30 days. I first learned of this myself from [[Template:Cite_news#Optional_parameters]], which says, in boldface, &quot;'''Do not post urls of Google hosted AP content, that content is transient. Use MSNBC, Yahoo, or another provider that keeps AP archives.'''&quot; But I was wondering whether there might be a more direct link to the same caveat, perhaps with a more complete discussion of the problem, or even a policy statment about this? # I understand that it ''is'' permissable to cite to [[Google News Archive | Google News &lt;u&gt;Archive&lt;/u&gt;]] ( external link [http://news.google.com/archivesearch here] ) for content that's not available on the web, e.g. for pre-internet era optically-scanned newspaper pages. If an editor wants to cite Google News Archive for this purpose, he should be use &quot;cite news&quot; rather than &quot;cite web&quot; to do so, and the link to Google should be placed in that template's optional &quot;archive url&quot; field, correct? I say so because although the &quot;cite web&quot; template also includes the &quot;archive url&quot; field, the plain &quot;url&quot; field is ''required'' in &quot;cite web&quot;. The editor using &quot;cite web&quot; in this case would have no alternative but to place the archive url in the plain &quot;url&quot; field. If he does so, he's likely to also neglect to fill in the optional &quot;archive url&quot; field correctly, will likely leave it blank, and this will generate a false impression in the link as it appears in the references section. Comments, please? Many thanks, &amp;nbsp;–&amp;nbsp;&lt;font face=&quot;Cambria&quot;&gt;[[User:Ohiostandard|&lt;font color=&quot;teal&quot;&gt;'''OhioStandard'''&lt;/font&gt;]] ([[User talk:Ohiostandard|talk]])&lt;/font&gt; 04:46, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :#I don't think there is any standard. Citation templates' main function is convenience and fostering uniformity in formatting citations, but their use at all [[Wikipedia:Citing sources#Citation templates and tools|is optional]]. If cite web is used where cite news could be, and vice-versa, but the use requires no extra attribution parameters that the other contains, I don't think it matters a great deal. Using the more appropriate seeming template may have some benefit in that another person coming along who wants to add further attribution in a way that is unsupported by the mismatched template will not have to switch anything. :#I don't personally remember ever seeing this discussed but I was able to dig up [[Wikipedia:External links/Noticeboard/Archive 1#Google &quot;Hosted News&quot;|this]], for what it's worth. The text to the template looks like it was boldy added rather than after a targeted discussion [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Cite_news/doc&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=294941649 diff]. :#My understanding of archive URLs is that it is not for links to sites that describe their content as &quot;archived&quot; but for links that you have actually archived against going dead. For example, by going to http://webcitation.org/ and archiving a URL, girding against linkrot which is so common for web citations. News stories that actually appeared in a newspaper never go dead, only the link to a online ''copy'' goes dead, because the paper was printed; the link is just a convenience so that users don't have to go to the library to verify content, but the story exists regardless. This is not true of web only sources. So, you can archive web content so that even if the original content goes to meet the dodos (where all the left socks reside), then the archived link saves the day. For an example of I think proper use of an archive url, see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masako_Katsura#cite_note-Memorial-106 here]. Cheers.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 11:56, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::Okay, that's helpful. It hadn't really occurred to me that the &quot;archive url&quot; fields might not be intended for services like Google News Archive, but perhaps just for &quot;one-off&quot; services like Webcitation. It does seem counterproductive, though, for links to google news to be so easy to add, and not to even have a very explicit policy about that. The links break in ( on average, I'd guesss ) in 2 - 3 weeks, and it can be difficult to replace the broken link with the intended target once that happens if a cite template that inludes, at least, the article title isn't used. But I realize - thanks for the link - that it would be hard to implement some automated way to &quot;catch&quot; links to Google News ''while they're in the process of being added''. Maybe I'll make some proposal at Village Pump about this when I can find the time. &amp;nbsp;–&amp;nbsp;&lt;font face=&quot;Cambria&quot;&gt;[[User:Ohiostandard|&lt;font color=&quot;teal&quot;&gt;'''OhioStandard'''&lt;/font&gt;]] ([[User talk:Ohiostandard|talk]])&lt;/font&gt; 17:33, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Siddha Yoga category == Can image files be deleted from a Category? Three files seem to have disappeared from Category:Siddha Yoga. They are Image:1-Lake-Nityananda(Fallsburg)-1, Image:1-Lake-Nityananda(Fallsburg)-2, 1-Lake-Nityananda(Fallsburg)- 3. Just a glitch perhaps? &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Sardaka|Sardaka]] ([[User talk:Sardaka|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sardaka|contribs]]) 8:58, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; :Hello Sardaka. First note that the category you are here about is at the Wikimedia Commons, [[Commons:Category:Siddha Yoga]]. There is no [[:Category:Siddha Yoga]] here (at Wikipedia), never has been, and we are a different (sister) website. The answer is yes, categories can be deleted from Commons images and this is what happened. See, for example, the removal of the category from [[:File:1-Lake-Nityananda(Fallsburg)-1.jpg]] at '''[http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:1-Lake-Nityananda%28Fallsburg%29-1.jpg&amp;action=history this page revision]'''. Cheers.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 10:28, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::(Hi, Fuhg!) Other editors will be much more familiar with the issue than I am, but relating to Wikipedia, rather than Commons, some contributors go out of their way to delete images from categories, believing that only articles belong in categories. I came across such an editor a while back, and objected. I even asked here at the help desk, as I recall, and I think without much response, although I can't find that in the archives now. [[Wikipedia:Help_desk/Archives/2010_June_14#Adding_Commons_images_to_en_Wiki_categories | This discussion]] from the archives might be of interest to you, as well. Of course, in the absence of any policy on Commons about this, you could [[WP:BOLD | be bold]] and revert their deletion from the category by looking at the category history if it's important to you that they be included. Best, &amp;nbsp;–&amp;nbsp;&lt;font face=&quot;Cambria&quot;&gt;[[User:Ohiostandard|&lt;font color=&quot;teal&quot;&gt;'''OhioStandard'''&lt;/font&gt;]] ([[User talk:Ohiostandard|talk]])&lt;/font&gt; 10:35, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::Hey OhioStandard. Long time no see! That's an interesting discussion, if ultimately unilluminating of what benefit there is in local categorization of Commons images (I'm not sure I see the point). I'm not much a categorization person but I'm not sure I see much point in categorizing local images either and [[WP:CAT]] says little on the subject. I wasn't focused before on the appropriateness of the removal, but now that I'm thinking about it, why would an image of a lake in New York be in a category for a Hindu spiritual movement? Ah... I see that an Ashram for the movement in the U.S. is in upstate New York, and I therefore presume it is nearby this lake; this is a tenuous connection. Sardaka I would agree with the removal of the category unless this New York State lake was somehow closely associated with the movement by third parties (not by those in the movement).--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 11:24, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::: Yes, I'm inclined to agree. The objection I had with the user I mentioned was when I noticed he was removing a category tag for something like &quot;abolition advocates&quot; from images of figures like Booker T. Washington; the category tags he was removing were definitely relevant. In retrospect I'd have to say that I'm not really familiar-enough with the issues to argue the point one way or the other, although your comments about keeping categorization on Commons seem persuasive. And, of course, it seems poor practice, as in this instance, to categorize a lake as part of a Hindu spiritual movement, unless closely identified with that movement, as per your criteria. Best, &amp;nbsp;–&amp;nbsp;&lt;font face=&quot;Cambria&quot;&gt;[[User:Ohiostandard|&lt;font color=&quot;teal&quot;&gt;'''OhioStandard'''&lt;/font&gt;]] ([[User talk:Ohiostandard|talk]])&lt;/font&gt; 14:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC) The lake in question is on the Siddha Yoga ashram property, which is why it was in that category. I can't see why anyone should have the right to delete pix like this. How do I reverse it? [[User:Sardaka|Sardaka]] ([[User talk:Sardaka|talk]]) 09:26, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == [[User:Perseus, Son of Zeus]] == The coding on my account's userpage (Perseus, Son of Zeus) seems a bit messed up. The one I'm having trouble [[Template:Vandalism information|with is this one]], centering it. Thanks! [[Special:Contributions/173.49.140.141|173.49.140.141]] ([[User talk:173.49.140.141|talk]]) 12:05, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :&lt;nowiki&gt;&quot;align=&lt;left&gt;&quot;&lt;/nowiki&gt; isn't going to work - you shouldn't be using angle-brackets around these parameters. I couldn't see how to float that template in the centre of the user page, though, so I suggest you ask the specialists at [[Wikipedia:User page design center/Help and collaboration/Help requests]]. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 13:25, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ==fix template pls== fix [[Template:Santana|this]] pls. thank you.--&lt;span style=&quot;color:Red3; background-color:#FF7F24;font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'&quot;&gt; [[User:GreatOrangePumpkin|♫Greatorangepumpkin♫]] &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:Black; background-color:#A4D3EE;font-family: 'Gigi'&quot;&gt;[[User talk:GreatOrangePumpkin|T]]&lt;/span&gt; 13:29, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :{{done}} - {{diff2|394375480|here}}. {{small|To do it, I went to the template's history page and checked a few diffs until I worked out where the problem started ({{diff2|394373003|it was here}}). I worked out what was wrong with that edit (missing &quot;&lt;nowiki&gt;}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&quot;) and re-added the &quot;&lt;nowiki&gt;}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&quot; in the correct place.}} [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 13:37, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == The Wiki for PETN Is Dangerously Complete == I was shocked to see the Wiki for PETN contained enough information on how to make and ignite the high explosive PETN. Anyone with even a basic scientific degree can follow successfully the guilines listed in this article to create an powerful explosive. Given that this article is available to anyone with internet access it presents an extreme risk of informing extremists of all types to have a new and highly available way to cuase massive damage. Is there an easy way to ask Wikipedia to remove posts like this as too detailed and complete in an area that could be used by extremists? &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/99.249.0.228|99.249.0.228]] ([[User talk:99.249.0.228|talk]]) 13:58, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :[[WP:NOTCENSORED]]. Wikipedia is not in the business of removing freely availible information from its website. Terrorism (and drug use, and pornography) doesn't end because Wikipedia contains articles on explosives (and drugs, and nude people). --[[User:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#000099&quot;&gt;Jayron&lt;/font&gt;]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;32&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' 15:30, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Images == I recently uploaded an image to [[Gossip Girl (season 4)]] but the image won't show up. Any suggestions? [[User:Jayy008|Jayy008]] ([[User talk:Jayy008|talk]]) 14:00, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :There appears to be a problem with the image thumbnail at [[:File:Gossipgirl.jpg]].&amp;nbsp;–&amp;nbsp;[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 14:06, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::Any idea how to fix it? [[User:Jayy008|Jayy008]] ([[User talk:Jayy008|talk]]) 15:18, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::Patience - it appears to be a server problem.&amp;nbsp;–&amp;nbsp;[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 15:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::Okay, thanks for the info. [[User:Jayy008|Jayy008]] ([[User talk:Jayy008|talk]]) 15:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == IMAGE DOESN'T APPEAR!!! == I don't know if my problem same as above, but the image was i talking about are all image that was made by my edit, for example, the cat image on my [[User:Adikhebat|USER PAGE]], The cat image doesn't appear in my computer.The same problem also happen on my userpage in Malay Wikipedia. The Adult Quote-tan image doesn't appear on my user page in malay version of Wikipedia.And when i see the image page,i found no problem with the image. And what confusing me now is the Images were not uploaded by me.The image doesn't appear if it was edited by me, i mean , for example when i create the template or article and put the images, the image will not show up even the images dont have any problem.Why this happen??! anyone help me!! !!!!!! &lt;small&gt;P/S:Sorry if my english suck&lt;/small&gt; --[[User:Adikhebat|Adikhebat]] ([[User talk:Adikhebat|talk]]) 14:59, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :There appears to be a server problem that is preventing display of some (maybe all) images/thumbnails. I am sure it will be resolved in due course.--[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 15:19, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::Thanks for the info --[[User:Adikhebat|Adikhebat]] ([[User talk:Adikhebat|talk]]) 15:55, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::{{done|Finally, The Problem has been solved}} --[[User:Adikhebat|Adikhebat]] ([[User talk:Adikhebat|talk]]) 16:41, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Portia de Rossi == Please list my favorite movie by Portia de Rossi on her page. Portia de Rossi was in the movie THE SHIFT in 2009. THANK YOU &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/63.225.203.118|63.225.203.118]] ([[User talk:63.225.203.118|talk]]) 15:23, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :[[WP:SOFIXIT|No one, except YOU, is more qualified to do this]]. As long as you have [[WP:CITE|proof]] that she acted in that movie, feel free to make any changes to the article as you wish. Wikipedia was built exactly this way, and no one here is more special than you. --[[User:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#000099&quot;&gt;Jayron&lt;/font&gt;]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;32&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' 15:29, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == More info for you to see Portia de Rossi credits in the movie THE SHIFT. == More info for you to see Portia de Rossi credits in the movie THE SHIFT. http://www.dyermovie.com/about/cast THANK YOU {{UnsignedIP|63.225.203.118}} == Too difficult == This has become way too difficult to use. I can't spend hours learing the myriad rules and regs. I have a regular job. Is posting maps and articles for the unemployed and at home types? &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/71.239.119.18|71.239.119.18]] ([[User talk:71.239.119.18|talk]]) 15:40, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Not really. I have a job too and edit here. Remember, everyone here is a volunteer and edits because they like to do so. If you find it too hard, then you may want to consider just reading the articles (or visiting another website). If you do want to stay, feel free to ask questions! That's what this desk is for and we're glad to help. &lt;font color=&quot;darkorange&quot;&gt;[[User:Tnxman307|TN]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;midnightblue&quot;&gt;&lt;big&gt;[[User talk:Tnxman307|X]]&lt;/big&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Tnxman307|Man]]&lt;/font&gt; 16:42, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::You won't be able to create articles or upload images, such as maps, without [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]]. After four days and ten edits your account will be [[WP:AUTOCONFIRM|autoconfirmed]] - the delay is to minimize the drive-by vandalism we unfortunately get from some unregistered users (although many are productive and valuable editors). [[WP:Article wizard|The Article wizard]] will walk you through the process of starting a new article, there's plenty of guidance available on [[WP:UI|uploading images]], and you can't break anything beyond repair. Just take on board [[WP:PILLARS|the basic principles]] and contribute where you can. [[User:Karenjc|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;Ka&lt;/font&gt;]][[User_talk:Karenjc|renjc]] 20:57, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == NOTE TO JAYRON32 == Dear Jayron32, Can you please post the info I show below... as it took me hours at this site to find the right link to ask for the new info to be added. I'm highly challenged when it comes to using the computer and navigating websites. Thank you again [[Special:Contributions/63.225.203.118|63.225.203.118]] ([[User talk:63.225.203.118|talk]]) 15:41, 2 November 2010 (UTC) Please list my favorite movie by Portia de Rossi on her page. Portia de Rossi was in the movie THE SHIFT in 2009. THANK YOU —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.225.203.118 (talk) 15:23, 2 November 2010 (UTC) No one, except YOU, is more qualified to do this. As long as you have proof that she acted in that movie, feel free to make any changes to the article as you wish. Wikipedia was built exactly this way, and no one here is more special than you. --Jayron32 15:29, 2 November 2010 (UTC) [edit] More info for you to see Portia de Rossi credits in the movie THE SHIFT. More info for you to see Portia de Rossi credits in the movie THE SHIFT. http://www.dyermovie.com/about/cast THANK YOU —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.225.203.118 (talk) :{{done}}. Thanks for the reference. --[[User:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#000099&quot;&gt;Jayron&lt;/font&gt;]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;32&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' 16:21, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == References in section titles == Do references belong in a section title? Example: section &quot;Top projects&quot; in [[Kickstarter|Kickstarter]]. --[[User:Mortense|Mortense]] ([[User talk:Mortense|talk]]) 16:56, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :References don't belong in section titles and have been removed from there in [[Kickstarter]] ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kickstarter&amp;oldid=394405044 old version before removal]). [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 17:39, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ==Formatting== I followed the instructions carefully but am still having troubles formatting this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Carofiglio I have inserted references but the final page hides some paragraphs. I get no errors or any useful suggestions from the help page.Can it have to do with the fact that the article is in English but includes references in Italian? Can anyone please help me? &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Aminervi|Aminervi]] ([[User talk:Aminervi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Aminervi|contribs]]) 17:03, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :I've fixed up the page some. Does this fix the issues you saw? &lt;font color=&quot;darkorange&quot;&gt;[[User:Tnxman307|TN]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;midnightblue&quot;&gt;&lt;big&gt;[[User talk:Tnxman307|X]]&lt;/big&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Tnxman307|Man]]&lt;/font&gt; 17:17, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Looking to make a wikipedia page but worried about slander/defamation == The company I look for (a collection agency) is thinking about making a wikipedia page listing our history, etc. but we are worried about additional content that may be added. No one likes debt collection agencies and there could be a lot of unneeded negative comments added. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/12.238.215.230|12.238.215.230]] ([[User talk:12.238.215.230|talk]]) 17:54, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :First, ensure you don't run into conflict of interest. See [[WP:COI]]. Then, understand that Wikipedia is not a social website or internet listing. It is an encyclopedia. See [[WP:NOT]]. What makes your collection agency notable? See [[WP:NOTABLE]]. Finally, if there is bad press about your company, that bad press will likely be reflected in the article. It is not slander. It is not defamation. It is what Wikipedia does: provide information found in reliable resources. -- [[User:Kainaw|&lt;font color='#ff0000'&gt;k&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color='#cc0033'&gt;a&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color='#990066'&gt;i&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color='#660099'&gt;n&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color='#3300cc'&gt;a&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color='#0000ff'&gt;w&lt;/font&gt;]][[User talk:Kainaw|&amp;trade;]] 18:02, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::This is a classic case where you should read [[WP:LUC]] before going any further. Once an article exists, other people are free to add properly cited information to it. Your company should not be creating articles about itself anyway, but if you are concerned about retaining editorial control over what is written about your firm, starting a Wikipedia article is probably not the best idea. [[User:Karenjc|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;Ka&lt;/font&gt;]][[User_talk:Karenjc|renjc]] 20:36, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Right to vanish == I request my current and earlier user accounts to [[WP:VANISH|vanish]] - see my [[User talk:Cayden|talk page]]. They have been retired for some time, but I would like them totally deleted. [[User:Cayden|Cayden]] ([[User talk:Cayden|talk]]) 19:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Your pages have been deleted. Just stop editing and you're set. Godspeed. &lt;font color=&quot;darkorange&quot;&gt;[[User:Tnxman307|TN]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;midnightblue&quot;&gt;&lt;big&gt;[[User talk:Tnxman307|X]]&lt;/big&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Tnxman307|Man]]&lt;/font&gt; 19:39, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::Thanks for deleting some of the pages, but I don't think you understand that I wanted both accounts to totally vanish with any user, usertalk and subpages, contributions, and anything else. I'd like them to completely vanish. [[User:Cayden|Cayden]] ([[User talk:Cayden|talk]]) 20:03, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::Your contributions are part of the historical record and cannot be vanished. I will delete your talk page archives and anything else in your userspace. --[[User:Orangemike|&lt;font color=&quot;darkorange&quot;&gt;Orange Mike&lt;/font&gt;]] &amp;#x007C; [[User talk:Orangemike|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]] 20:17, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::Thanks. I'm sure in the past that was possible, but perhaps things have changed. [[User:Cayden|Cayden]] ([[User talk:Cayden|talk]]) 20:26, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Quick AFD help == [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion#AFD_Jenn_Rivell With this here]. It's been a while since I seriously used Wikipedia for things like this. Thanks! --[[User:Endlessdan|Endlessdan]] ([[User talk:Endlessdan|talk]]) 20:15, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Fixed it. You substed where you shouldn't have. --[[User:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#000099&quot;&gt;Jayron&lt;/font&gt;]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;32&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' 20:23, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::Also, don't forget to add it to the list at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2010 November 2]]. If you need help, I can do this for you as well. --[[User:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#000099&quot;&gt;Jayron&lt;/font&gt;]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;32&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' 20:25, 2 November 2010 (UTC) Can you do this for me? I used to be a pro at AFD noms but have since slipped in time. Thanks again. --[[User:Endlessdan|Endlessdan]] ([[User talk:Endlessdan|talk]]) 20:40, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Flags not showing up == The Flag of Nigeria is not working. &lt;font face=&quot;Courier&quot;&gt;[[User:Velociraptor888|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;'''Velo'''&lt;/font&gt;]][[User talk:Velociraptor888|&lt;font color=&quot;purple&quot;&gt;'''ciraptor'''&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:Contributions/Velociraptor888|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;'''888'''&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/font&gt; 21:26, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Other people have reported problems with pictures today; there may be a server problem. I can see the flag at the top right of the [[Nigeria]] article, if that's any help. Look again tomorrow? -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 21:44, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::Could you please elaborate more? --[[User:Monterey Bay|Monterey Bay]] ([[User talk:Monterey Bay|talk]]) 21:47, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::Are you asking me or Velociraptor to elaborate? I'm referring to ukexpat's comment in [[#IMAGE_DOESN.27T_APPEAR.21.21.21|this section]]; I don't have any more detail than that. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 21:52, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::I am referring to Velociraptor's comment in which he indicated the flag of Nigeria isn't working. --[[User:Monterey Bay|Monterey Bay]] ([[User talk:Monterey Bay|talk]]) 21:58, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Professor22 looking for input on NOR == I'm trying to figure out how to edit an article on your page with incorrect information. I have two scholarly resources to validate what I'm saying but you completely blocked me from being able to edit anything at all. I'm a professor of Microeconomics at the University of Las Vegas Nevada. I'm logged in as a user and have NOT violated your wikipedia &quot;no original research&quot; rules. You can verify everything I'm saying. Sure, there's nothing neutral about the stance I'm taking but it's not an issue that suppose to be neutral. It's pretty black and white and involves money. As it stands, your page is distributing false information. I can easily log into another computer and hide the IP address :) Lets be adults about this. Why don't you tell me exactly which part of the &quot;no original research&quot; policy I violated... Here's the resources for the article I want to post: Mankiw, Gregory (2004) &quot;Principles of Microeconomics&quot; Harvard University. Miller, Roger Leroy (2001) &quot;The Economics of Public Issues&quot; Institute for University Studies in Arlington, Texas. {{unsigned|Professor22}} - &lt;small&gt;reposted by [[User:Onorem|Onorem]][[Special:Contributions/Onorem|♠]][[User talk:Onorem|Dil]] 21:42, 2 November 2010 (UTC) after initial post blanked the help desk&lt;/small&gt; :I have to sign off for now, but for clarity's sake am including a link to the edit in question, which I reverted numerous times as original research, unencyclopedic in tone, and non-neutral commentary. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Illegal_immigration&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=394451588]. [[User:JNW|JNW]] ([[User talk:JNW|talk]]) 21:46, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::I sympathise. It's an argument presumably sourced from a book, but without page numbers and given the style of the edit, virtually impossible to verify - see [[WP:VERIFY]]. It reads like an op ed piece - shorthand, 'our country', 'guy', ALL CAPS, etc. You wouldn't expect to find this in a print encyclopedia and it doesn't belong in this encyclopedia. Just tell us, in more or less formal language, what Mankiw and Miller say about illegal immigration. I've tried to check Mankiw online and can't find anything in his book that mentions illegal immigration other than to say that people tend to focus on it. If they don't specifically discuss illegal immigration, applying anything they say about economics to the subject of illegal immigration is what we call original research, see [[WP:OR]]. [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 21:58, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ==Getting logged out== Hey, I have two accounts with wikipedia and can't access either one. I haven't been blocked or anything, and when I log in it's successful, but then when I go to any other page, I'm logged out again. I have no idea why. Could someone please give me any advice on this at my email address &lt;removed&gt;?? PS, my two accounts are fiveby5 and angelsinthearchitecture. I only need to be able to access one, the second I just created after I couldn't get into the first. :See [[Help:Logging in#Login issues and problems]], especially the sub-section &quot;I get logged out just after logging in&quot;. I have removed your email address to protect your privacy; replies to Help Desk questions are made here. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 21:56, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Multiple images == I've tried to use the template {{tl|multiple images}}, but I can't get it to work as I might like. I have a verticle list of images and I want them to become thinner and shorter. I change the &lt;tt&gt;width&lt;/tt&gt; parameter, but that only changes the width of the images, and ''not'' the width of the box containing all of the images and the text. Take a look at [[User talk:Fly by Night/Medals]] and see if you can find a way to fix it. I want it to be more discreet. It looks great with &lt;tt&gt;width = 100&lt;/tt&gt;, but that's far too wide. It's bigger than my user page. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;&quot;&gt;— [[User:Fly by Night|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Segoe print&quot;&gt;'''''Fly by Night'''''&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;font color=&quot;#000000&quot;&gt;([[User talk:Fly by Night|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Segoe print&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/span&gt;]])&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 23:45, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :I [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Fly_by_Night/Medals&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=394485991 took a stab], converting it to a table. However, I'm not great at this coding and I'm sure someone can either tweak what I've done or offer another way, but I see that your previous post about this from 3 days ago was never responded so I gave it a try. I'm afraid the images no longer link to specific pages but just to the image pages themselves, and I'm not sure how to fix that. Is it better? Feel free to revert of course.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 00:27, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::Actually I just figured out how to link, which was very easy, with the simply parameter &lt;code&gt;|link=&lt;/code&gt; (If I remember, we didn't used to be able to do this with normal image markup).--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 00:46, 3 November 2010 (UTC) = November 3 = == Image fail == Why doesn't [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donington_Park&amp;diff=394471767&amp;oldid=394039792 this] edit work? (A new graphic has been created, but does not display ... even if I look at the page source, and copy and paste the link, the image won't display). What have I missed? [[User:Guinness2702|Guinness]] ([[User talk:Guinness2702|talk]]) 00:27, 3 November 2010 (UTC) :There is currently a thumbnail display problem for some images, it seems. (See also this discussion: [[Wikipedia:VPT#Image_scalers]]) &lt;font style=&quot;font-family: 'Times New Roman'&quot;&gt;[[User:Intelligentsium|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#013220&quot;&gt;Intelligent&lt;/span&gt;]]'''[[User_talk:Intelligentsium|&lt;span style=&quot;color:Black&quot;&gt;sium&lt;/span&gt;]]'''&lt;/font&gt; 00:36, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::I don't know why it fixed it but I tried reducing the number of pixels moderately and it works now.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 00:38, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::: Odd, but thanks :) at least I know it's not something *I've* done ;) [[User:Guinness2702|Guinness]] ([[User talk:Guinness2702|talk]]) 00:47, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::::I hereby designate you as the sitewide scapegoat for all technical problems. You should apologize to each of our {{NUMBEROFUSERS}} users.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 00:51, 3 November 2010 (UTC) :::::I'll do Aaron A. Aaronson, but I'll ask him to pass it on to the next one :) [[User:Guinness2702|Guinness]] ([[User talk:Guinness2702|talk]]) 01:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::::::&lt;nowiki&gt;:-)&lt;/nowiki&gt; Of course, [[User:!!]] is our [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3APrefixIndex&amp;prefix=&amp;namespace=2 first user], alphabetically speaking.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 01:57, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == Qantity of Categories in english Wikipedia? == I am currently in the process of writing a paper about Wikipedia Categories. Ive done most of my research using Wikipedia API to get approximate numbers and to analyze categories structure. But i also want to know how many categories does Wikipedia has at the moment, and i just cant find this information. I could, of course, just install a previous Wikipeda DB dump and make a query to cout all categories, but that is an overkill. And using API for that would take too much time and strain Wikipedia servers. So i am asking this question here: How many cartegories does Wikipedia have and is there a place where this info is posted or could be extracted from? &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:DSUmanskiy|DSUmanskiy]] ([[User talk:DSUmanskiy|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/DSUmanskiy|contribs]]) 00:58, 3 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Normally, you would use the &quot;magicword&quot; &lt;nowiki&gt;{{PAGESINNS:name}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;, replacing &quot;name&quot; with the namespace you wish to return, so you would replace it with Category. However, this feature appears to be disabled, per [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words#Variables this page]. You may be able to get the devs to activate it briefly, or possibly you could find other ways to do it. Try asking at [[WP:VPT|The Technical Village Pump]], which is patroled by people who know how to do this stuff. --[[User:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#000099&quot;&gt;Jayron&lt;/font&gt;]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;32&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' 02:21, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::Thank you for your answer:) I will look into that. The magicwords seem pretty awesome and i think they might do the job. If i figure out how to use them that is:) And persuade the devs to enable them. --[[User:DSUmanskiy|DSUmanskiy]] ([[User talk:DSUmanskiy|talk]]) 11:31, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == Image problem with new page == I have created a new article [[Ignatius Cooper Grubb]] and uploaded an image [[:File:Ignatius Cooper Grubb.jpg]]. I can't get the image to display appropriately in the article. 1) it is too large, and 2) it seems to have some extraneous info surrounding the image. I have reviewed other articles with images and tried techniques I observed (like |thumb|), but nothing seems to work. Appreciate some guidance, the article is otherwise about complete. [[User:LynnSGrubb|LynnSGrubb]] ([[User talk:LynnSGrubb|talk]]) 04:15, 3 November 2010 (UTC) :{{Done}}; by the looks of it, images placed in [[Template:Infobox officeholder]] do not need all that fancy coding around it. All you need to do is place the file name in the &quot;image&quot; parameter, and then specify the size in the &quot;imagesize&quot; parameter below it. Note that there seems to be some problems as of current that involve sized images not rendering correctly; for instance, when I re-size your image as 250px instead of 200px in the article, it causes the image to not show up for me. It's basically just a problem with the servers. This should be fixed in due time, &lt;small&gt;I think&lt;/small&gt;. &lt;b&gt;~&lt;i&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#07517C&quot;&gt;[[User:SuperHamster|Super]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#6FA23B&quot;&gt;[[User:SuperHamster|Hamster]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt; &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:SuperHamster|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/SuperHamster|Contribs]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:37, 3 November 2010 (UTC) :{{ec}} The usage of images in infoboxes can be idiosyncratic. Usually (but not always) the image = (or sometimes imagename = ) parameter is looking for the image name WITHOUT any brackets or the File: prefix. Secondly, the imagesize = parameter is optional sometimes, but in this case it looks like you need to enter a resonably small imagesize (i used 200px) to make it work in this infobox. Like every other part of Wikipedia, infobox templates developed ''organicly'' and often independently, so often it isn't all that intuitive how they will work. If you check how I fixed your problem, it will usually work on ''most'' infoboxes, but be prepared for it to get screwy once in a while. Trial and error and experience will generally get you good results (its what I did to fix this problem). (post-ec) Looks like I editconflicted both here and at the article with SuperHamster. We pretty much did exactly the same thing. --[[User:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#000099&quot;&gt;Jayron&lt;/font&gt;]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;32&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' 04:43, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::I've removed the image, since it was taking up quite a bit of space! [[User:Arctic Night|'''&lt;font color=&quot;#3399FF&quot;&gt;Arctic&lt;/font&gt;''']] [[User talk:Arctic Night|'''&lt;font color=&quot;#000000&quot;&gt;Night&lt;/font&gt;''']] 07:13, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == [[Persons of National Historic Significance]] == Does anybody know how to get an '&lt;nowiki&gt;align=&quot;center&quot;&lt;/nowiki&gt;' tag to apply to a whole column in a table? I would hate to have to keep typing that lot out every time I create a new row... [[User:Arctic Night|'''&lt;font color=&quot;#3399FF&quot;&gt;Arctic&lt;/font&gt;''']] [[User talk:Arctic Night|'''&lt;font color=&quot;#000000&quot;&gt;Night&lt;/font&gt;''']] 06:18, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == Religion of Firoz Gandhi == I want to ask was Firoz Gandhi &quot;Muslim&quot; by religion and later on he changed his religion? Please elaborate it. Thanks....... &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/59.164.9.74|59.164.9.74]] ([[User talk:59.164.9.74|talk]]) 08:55, 3 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Hi, I think the [[Wikipedia:Reference desk|Reference desk]] would probably be the most appropriate forum for asking this question. [[User:Arctic Night|'''&lt;font color=&quot;#3399FF&quot;&gt;Arctic&lt;/font&gt;''']] [[User talk:Arctic Night|'''&lt;font color=&quot;#000000&quot;&gt;Night&lt;/font&gt;''']] 08:58, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == merging siren articles == I am trying to merge/redirect the following articles (all small and unable to advance): ACA P-15 ACA Cyclone ACA Hurricane ASC T-135 to the List_of_sirens_built_by_Alerting_Communicators_of_America article. Can anyone help me out with this? Everytime I try to redirect, it just doesn't work. --[[User:JustInn014|JustInn014]] ([[User talk:JustInn014|talk]]) 09:09, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == rev list == my name is willem kroesbergen and i made a short page about myself. i tried to add a footnote, but i get the following error: Cite error: There are &lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;ref&gt; tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{Reflist}} template or a &lt;references/&gt; tag; see the help page.&lt;/nowiki&gt; but with the information wikipedia gives, i am not able to make a reflist. please can you help me how to edit my page willem kroesbergen to ad the following footnote: JSTOR: Early Music, Vol.22,no3(Aug., 1994)pp.482-495 it will be helpful to ad some information to make it easier to solve this problem for others. thank you. willem kroesbergen {{unsigned|Kick030|10:16, 3 November 2010}} :I see that another editor has fixed the problem. The error message included a link to a [[Help:Cite errors/Cite error refs without references|page]] that tries to explain how to fix the problem. You might like to read [[Help:Footnotes]] as an introduction. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 10:26, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == Edit war == In article Sriracha, I keep adding my edit with appropriate citation and rationale for the edit. However, another user has initiated an edit war with me and refusing to provide any comment on why he/she is removing my edit. [[Special:Contributions/99.231.241.146|99.231.241.146]] ([[User talk:99.231.241.146|talk]]) 11:21, 3 November 2010 (UTC) :'''Several''' editors have undone your sketchy edits. Your edits are not being accepted because they are not from a reliable source. Go do something productive and stop warring.--[[User:Kintetsubuffalo|Chris (クリス • フィッチ)]] ([[User talk:Kintetsubuffalo|talk]]) 11:24, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::Note that your edit contains no source. I request a third-party to evaluate the merit of my source compared to kintetsubuffalo's (lack of) source. [[Special:Contributions/99.231.241.146|99.231.241.146]] ([[User talk:99.231.241.146|talk]]) 11:27, 3 November 2010 (UTC) :::I'm a non-involved third-party. I have a couple of points: :::*As far as I can see, no one provided an [[WP:Edit summary|edit summary]] when they reverted 99.231: in my view this edit war could have been prevented had someone taken the time to communicate with 99.231. :::*99.231, [http://www.huyfong.com/no_frames/company.htm this] is not a good source. It simply shows that this company produced the sauce: it does not say what you are claiming, specifically it does not say that this sauce is Vietnamese. Just because an American company produces a sauce and has a Vietnamese founder does not make a sauce Vietnamese. :::All of you need to discuss this [[Talk:Sriracha_sauce#Edit_war_between_myself_and_kintetsubuffalo|further]] and stop reverting. If you continue this edit war I'll [[WP:GOLDLOCK|protect]] the article until such time as you can discuss this issue and gain [[WP:CON|consensus]] for any proposed changes. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 11:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::::Fair enough. Can we simply have both claims with {{tlx|fact}} requests? This, I believe, is the most fair and reasonable resolution to the dispute, which the other editors seem absolutely hostile to. [[Special:Contributions/99.231.241.146|99.231.241.146]] ([[User talk:99.231.241.146|talk]]) 11:37, 3 November 2010 (UTC) :::::If both claims are disputed, then it makes sense to a {{tlx|fact}} tag to both (i.e. to Thai and Vietnamese origin claims). To my mind the Thai origin claim seems very reasonable, however if it's disputed (as it is here) then tagging it and then finding a source is the way to go. I would hope that sources for either or both claims could be found, and that will be hastened by adding {{tlx|fact}} tags. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 11:41, 3 November 2010 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Help_desk&diff=394565525</id> <title>Wikipedia:Help desk</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Help_desk&diff=394565525"/> <updated>2010-11-03T11:35:02Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: /* Edit war */ 3rd-party cmt <hr /> <div> {{/Header}}&lt;div style=&quot;position: absolute; top: 6.4em; right: 1.0em; border: 1px solid #a9a9a9; background: #fff;&quot; class=&quot;boilerplate metadata plainlinks&quot;&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[#footer|&amp;nbsp;Skip to bottom&amp;nbsp;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/div&gt; __TOC__ &lt;!-- This page is for the answers you need to know about using Wikipedia! --&gt; &lt;!-- For knowledge questions, please use the [[Wikipedia:Reference Desk]]! --&gt; &lt;!-- --&gt; &lt;!-- Ask your question at the bottom of this page. It will be answered shortly. --&gt; &lt;!-- --&gt; {{Wikipedia:Help_desk/Archives/2010 October 31}} = November 1 = == How do we get the article reviewed after being marked &quot;like an advertisement?&quot; == Kindly assist because the article is still being marked &quot;like an ad&quot; &amp; lack of reference even after it is edited with sufficient references. Our photos has been approved by WikiCommon but the article is pending. How do we know if it should be edited again to get it published? Thank you. &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Klmarathon|Klmarathon]] ([[User talk:Klmarathon|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Klmarathon|contribs]]) 09:54, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :There is no formal review procedure, and tags are not removed automatically. If you believe you have improved the article so that the tag is no longer appropriate, you can remove the tag. The worst that can happen is that somebody disagrees and puts it back. Make sure you give an informative Edit summary (eg Removed tag as article has been improved). --[[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 10:30, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :The article in question was [[User:Klmarathon/Standard Chartered KL Marathon]]; [[User:Klmarathon]] has been blocked as a spamusername. --[[User:Orangemike|&lt;font color=&quot;darkorange&quot;&gt;Orange Mike&lt;/font&gt;]] &amp;#x007C; [[User talk:Orangemike|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]] 12:51, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == stolen Unncovered Painting from the New York City Area for a novel == I am writing a novel about stolen art in the 1960's in New York City Area. Iwas trying to locaate information on any solen art that wa not recoverred &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/68.215.117.79|68.215.117.79]] ([[User talk:68.215.117.79|talk]]) 01:21, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :[[:Category:Art crime]] would be a good place to start exploring; you could also ask at the [[WP:RDH|Humanities Reference Desk]] to see if anyone had any ideas. --[[User:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#000099&quot;&gt;Jayron&lt;/font&gt;]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;32&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' 01:54, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Advanced search == Under the old interface, &quot;Search&quot; gave the choice of &quot;search&quot; and &quot;go&quot;. The former option seems to me now to be effectively missing. Utter pain in the butt if I want to search broadly for a term when there happens to be a Wikipedia article with that name. Offhand, the only way around this that I can see is if I explicitly navigate to [[Special:Search]], which is pretty obscure. Is there some simpler way to do this that I'm missing, or has this capability now been effectively restricted to the highly savvy? &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] ([[User talk:Jmabel|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jmabel|contribs]]) 02:35, 1 November 2010&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; :When you type a phrase into the search box, you should be getting a drop down menu - at the very bottom of that drop down menu is a link that says &quot;containing...&quot;, along with the text you typed in the search box. Clicking on that will perform a search, rather than going directly to the article. &lt;b&gt;~&lt;i&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#07517C&quot;&gt;[[User:SuperHamster|Super]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#6FA23B&quot;&gt;[[User:SuperHamster|Hamster]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt; &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:SuperHamster|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/SuperHamster|Contribs]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:49, 1 November 2010 (UTC) ::You can also search with an empty box to easily get to [[Special:Search]]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 03:32, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Creating wikipedia for an actress == Greetings, I am an actress and want to be in Wikipedia. How do I correctly create an entry about my career? Thank you [[User:TheRealMilDred|TheRealMilDred]] ([[User talk:TheRealMilDred|talk]]) 04:57, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :Well, first you have to be notable, as evidenced by coverage in third-party [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. After that, see [[Wikipedia:Creating an article]]. '''[[User:Grsz11|&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;Grsz&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Grsz11|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;11&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;''' 05:06, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :Creating an article about yourself is strongly discouraged by [[Wikipedia:Autobiography]]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 05:26, 1 November 2010 (UTC) ::One of the many things which Wikipedia is not is an organ for [[WP:PROMOTION|self-promotion]]. If you have already been noticed in multiple independent sources then Wikipedia wishes to record that. If you have not, then Wikipedia does not, at present, want an article on you. Sorry. --[[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 10:33, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Please Take This Into Consideration: == I believe that Philosophy should be listed among the prime subject names under the reading tab in your homepage. &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Angelo.medina|Angelo.medina]] ([[User talk:Angelo.medina|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angelo.medina|contribs]]) 05:34, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :A [[Portal:Philosophy|philosophy portal]] exists, if that's what you are looking for. [[User:Goodvac|&lt;span style=&quot;text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em;&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;'''''Goodvac'''''&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:Goodvac|&lt;font color=&quot;Blue&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/font&gt;]]) 05:38, 1 November 2010 (UTC) ::I guess it refers to the currently 8 portals linked at the top right of the [[Main Page]]. It appears from [[Talk:Main Page/Archive 69#Adding Philosophy to the main portals list]] that [[Portal:Philosophy]] has failed to gain support in the past. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 08:45, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Task force, work group and subproject == [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Council|WikiProject Council]]'s directory currently labels sub-groups of WikiProjects as either ''task forces'', ''work groups'', or ''subprojects''. Are there any distinctions between these three labels, for example in breadth and depth of coverage and administration? Or are they merely synonyms of one another? Thanks. [[User:AngChenrui|A&lt;small&gt;NG&lt;/small&gt;]][[User talk:AngChenrui|C&lt;small&gt;HENRUI&lt;/small&gt;]] &lt;sub&gt;[[WP:MSE]]&lt;/sub&gt;[[User:AngChenrui/BS|♨]] 09:07, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == violation droits d'auteur == bonjour, j'ai rédigé un article sur la région Picardie et le tourisme en Picardie. Les éléments de cet article sont tirés en du site www.picardietourisme-acteurs.com pour lequel je suis rédacteur en chef. Il n'y a donc aucun problème d'utilisation de ces informations. Merci de rendre accessible ce nouvel article et de supprimer le message sur l'utilisation des données. Vincent &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/80.214.253.143|80.214.253.143]] ([[User talk:80.214.253.143|talk]]) 11:04, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Si vous souhaitez autoriser Wikipedia d'utiliser le contenu de votre site web, s'il vous plaît suivez les instructions décrites sur [[WP:IOWN|cette page]]. Ici, sur la Wikipédia en anglais, tous les contenus des articles doivent être en anglais: si vous essayez de contribuer à la Wikipédia en francaise, s'il vous plaît visitez [http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Pages_soup%C3%A7onn%C3%A9es_de_violation_de_copyright#Attente_d.27autorisation_sur_OTRS cette page]. :If you want to give Wikipedia permission to use the contents of your site, please follow the steps outlined at [[WP:IOWN|this guide to donating copyright materials]]. NB that here on the English language Wikipedia, all article content must be in English. If you are trying to contribute to the French language Wikipedia (fr.wikipedia.org), please read [http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Pages_soup%C3%A7onn%C3%A9es_de_violation_de_copyright#Attente_d.27autorisation_sur_OTRS this page]. [[User:Gonzonoir|Gonzonoir]] ([[User talk:Gonzonoir|talk]]) 11:33, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == reset my page == I am Bruce Schreffler @ &lt;email removed&gt; and need to reset my pass word. can you help? &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/68.248.101.86|68.248.101.86]] ([[User talk:68.248.101.86|talk]]) 14:00, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :The only advice I can give is that you should look at [[Help:Logging in]]. Posting your email address here won't help, and will only attract spam, so I have removed it. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 14:07, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Where to report copyright violators? == I want to know that if any unregistered user indulges in a clear copyright violation, then what warnings should be given and after how many warnings, the user can be reported, so that an IP ban may be imposed on them. Also, which is the appropriate place to report such users. Thanks. - [[User:Managerarc| &lt;font face=&quot;Arial&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:Blue&quot;&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;b&gt;Managerarc&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]][[User talk:Managerarc|&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[talk]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] 14:36, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :Have a look at [[WP:Copyright problems]] and [[WP:Contact us/Article problem/Copyright]]. -- [[User:Bk314159|Bk314159]] ([[User talk:Bk314159|Talk to me]] and [[Special:Contributions/Bk314159|find out what I've done]]) 14:40, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :(edit conflict) If you find a copyright violation, the most urgent action is to protect the project by removing or blanking the text, following the instructions at [[Wikipedia:Copyright problems]]. The warning {{tp|uw-copyright}} is suitable for a first-time violation. If the same user continues to violate copyrights after being warned, this constitutes vandalism (see [[WP:VANDTYPES]]) and the usual series of escalating warnings can be followed by a report at [[WP:AIV]]. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 14:46, 1 November 2010 (UTC) ::Thanks, I got it. [[User:Managerarc| &lt;font face=&quot;Arial&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:Blue&quot;&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;b&gt;Managerarc&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]][[User talk:Managerarc|&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[talk]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] 15:27, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == [[United States]] == What is that rating box on the bottom of [[United States]], and what is the syntax (if allowed)? [[Special:Contributions/173.49.140.141|173.49.140.141]] ([[User talk:173.49.140.141|talk]]) 15:50, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :It looks as if it's [[:Category:Article Feedback Pilot]]. [[User:David Biddulph|David Biddulph]] ([[User talk:David Biddulph|talk]]) 15:57, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == [[User:Perseus, Son of Zeus]] == The coding on my account's userpage (Perseus, Son of Zeus) seems a bit messed up. The one I'm having trouble with is [[Template:Vandalism information|this one, centering it.]] Thanks! [[Special:Contributions/173.49.140.141|173.49.140.141]] ([[User talk:173.49.140.141|talk]]) 18:52, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Parameters for template &quot;user&quot; == Where can I find information on what &quot;en-2&quot; means in the following markup? &lt;nowiki&gt;{{User en-2}}&lt;/nowiki&gt; --[[User:Mortense|Mortense]] ([[User talk:Mortense|talk]]) 20:02, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :It indicates the user's level of fluency in the relevant language, in this case English at ''intermediate ability - enough for editing or discussions'' level, see [[WP:BABEL]].&amp;nbsp;–&amp;nbsp;[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 20:05, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :&quot;en-2&quot; is not a parameter in the template sense. It's simply part of the chosen name of the template {{tl|User en-2}} which is a completely different template from {{tl|User}}. &quot;en&quot; in the name doesn't have any special markup meaning to the software which handles {{tl|User en-2}} like any other template. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 20:19, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Logo entry for Wikipedia entry &quot;Linux Professional Institute&quot; == To Whom it May Concern: Please remove the logo for the &quot;Linux Professional Institute&quot; at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Professional_Institute This was changed today, November 1, 2010 by wikipedia user: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Iha9c The logo as published before was correct. This change was highly unprofessional, if not outright malicious. Furthermore, how do I register a complaint about User: Iha9c Looking forward to your prompt response. Scott Lamberton Director of Communications Linux Professional Institute http://www.lpi.org &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.49.33.151|69.49.33.151]] ([[User talk:69.49.33.151|talk]]) 20:25, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :It looks to me as though [[User:Iha9c|Iha9c]] was simply trying to supply the logo of ''another'' LPI - the [[Indonesian Premier League]] (or Liga Primera Indonesia). This wasn't the right way to go about it, but I don't believe it was unprofessional or malicious. Just about to restore the old version for the Linux Institute, and see whether this other logo is eligible for upload to a different filename [[User:Gonzonoir|Gonzonoir]] ([[User talk:Gonzonoir|talk]]) 20:33, 1 November 2010 (UTC) ::In fact, John of Reading's beaten me to the revert. Thanks John. [[User:Gonzonoir|Gonzonoir]] ([[User talk:Gonzonoir|talk]]) 20:36, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Screenplay Submission == I sent a screenplay to Hadley Films but got a broken link when I sent it. Is there a company by that name? I guess I'm just being careful. THank you very much. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.69.33.253|70.69.33.253]] ([[User talk:70.69.33.253|talk]]) 20:53, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :A Google search found http://www.hadleyfilms.com/ -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 20:56, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == finding a deleted page and un deleting it == How do I find a page that was deleted and undelete it? (it was a page about Amotz Shemi) Thanks Gili &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Gilifocht|Gilifocht]] ([[User talk:Gilifocht|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Gilifocht|contribs]]) 21:03, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :The deletion discussion is at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Amotz Shemi]]. From the comments there I don't think you'll be able to persuade an admin to undelete it for you. But there seems to be a copy of the text at [http://wikibin.org/articles/amotz-shemi.html Wikibin], an unrelated web site which keeps material that has been deleted from Wikipedia. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 21:14, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Deletion of an article == I went through page after page of Wikipedia and finally found the complex way in which to suggest the deletion of an article. I do not have the time nor the inclination to go through such an extensive process but I do want to tell you that the article on Buzzards is 100% wrong and should be deleted ASAP so that people reading it are not led into a morass of falsehoods and misinformation. Sincerely, Calius &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Calius12|Calius12]] ([[User talk:Calius12|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Calius12|contribs]]) 22:13, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Are you talking about the article [[Buzzard]]? It's unlikely that will get deleted, but if there is something wrong there, please indicate on the article's Discussion page what you find wrong. &lt;font family=&quot;Comic sans&quot;&gt;[[User:Corvus cornix|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;Corvus cornix&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sub&gt;''[[User talk:Corvus cornix|&lt;span style=&quot;color:Green&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/span&gt;]]''&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 22:14, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :I think the stuff in the 'new world' is not correct. None of it is referenced. The article is suppose to be a disambiguation? Regards, [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]])&lt;/sup&gt; 22:22, 1 November 2010 (UTC) = November 2 = == ref tags error == I was editing [[Smoking and Health: Report of the Advisory Committee to the Surgeon General of the United States]], and when I moved a citation around, another one that I didn't touch threw up a &quot;no closing &lt;/ref&gt; tag&quot; error. I triple checked it and can't find any reason it should be doing this. The citation is syntaxed properly. The one I did move has given me no problems. [[User:Somedaypilot|Somedaypilot]] ([[User talk:Somedaypilot|talk]]) 00:52, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Nevermind, I found it and fixed it. [[User:Somedaypilot|Somedaypilot]] ([[User talk:Somedaypilot|talk]]) 01:03, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == How to recover an account without the password? == I signed up for wikipedia years ago as Joel_Parker_Henderson with an email address that no longer works. How can I recover the account, for example get a new password and/or get an admin to update my email address? My email address is &lt;removed&gt; (Thank you!) &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.17.119.78|69.17.119.78]] ([[User talk:69.17.119.78|talk]]) 02:10, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Unfortunately, the only way to have your password reset is to use the same e-mail address that was set in its preferences; otherwise, we have no way to confirm that you are who you say you are. You should probably create a new account. Also, your e-mail address has been removed. -- [[User:Bk314159|Bk314159]] ([[User talk:Bk314159|Talk to me]] and [[Special:Contributions/Bk314159|find out what I've done]]) 02:34, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Strange glitch has been bothering me lately. == The standard toolbar (The one that goes Bold, Italic to &lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;ref /ref&gt;, {{ Cite }}&lt;/nowiki&gt;) occasionally loses all the buttons to the right of Horizontal line, and I need to refresh the edit page to get them back.--[[User:Occono|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;occono&lt;/font&gt;]] ([[User talk:Occono|talk]]) 02:56, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Please report this at [[WP:VPT]]. [[User:Mono|mⓞnⓞ]] 03:07, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::Will do, thanks. Sorry I keep coming here, it's a bad habit more then unawareness :( --[[User:Occono|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;occono&lt;/font&gt;]] ([[User talk:Occono|talk]]) 03:26, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Can I get a Wikipedia administrator to write an article about my professional gaming organization www.highrolleragaming.com == &lt;lengthy advertisement redacted&gt; Thats some info about us &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:HighRollersGaming|HighRollersGaming]] ([[User talk:HighRollersGaming|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/HighRollersGaming|contribs]]) 03:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :This username has been blocked. --[[User:Orangemike|&lt;font color=&quot;darkorange&quot;&gt;Orange Mike&lt;/font&gt;]] &amp;#x007C; [[User talk:Orangemike|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]] 13:44, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Yes you can; the place to make the request is [[Wikipedia:Requested articles]]. You will have to do this either anonymously or after registering a new account, however, as your current user name has been blocked as a violation of the [[WP:UN|user name policy]]. Note that some of the URLs you posted have been truncated with &quot;...&quot;, so please make sure you post the full URLs when adding your request. The volunteers at &quot;Requested articles&quot; will use these URLs to determine if your business is [[WP:N|notable]] enough for a Wikipedia article to be written. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 13:48, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::&lt;small&gt;Sorry, I thought there were signs of [[WP:N|notability]] there -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 13:50, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt; == Creating a wiki page == How can I submit to create a page for Joey Medina &quot; latin kings of comedy&quot; On top of all his success hbo showtime appearances he has recently obtained a syndicated fm show . www.joeymedinamorningshow.com www.963maxfm.com www.989maxfm.com www.1051maxfm.com I can be contacted at &lt;private contact information removed&gt; &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Runeria|Runeria]] ([[User talk:Runeria|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Runeria|contribs]]) 03:43, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; {{Quote box | quote = A Wizard is available to walk you through these steps. See the [[Wikipedia:Article wizard|Article Wizard]].''''' | source = Thank you. | width = 20% | align = right }} :Before creating an article, please [[Wikipedia:Searching|search]] Wikipedia first to make sure that an article does not ''already exist'' on the subject. Please also review a few of our relevant policies and guidelines with which all articles should comply. As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, articles must not contain [[Wikipedia:No original research|original research]], must be written from a [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|neutral point of view]], should [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|cite]] [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] which [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verify]] their content and must not contain [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons|unsourced, negative content about living people]]. :Articles must also demonstrate the [[Wikipedia:Notability|notability]] of the subject. Please see our subject specific guidelines for [[Wikipedia:Notability (people)|people]], [[Wikipedia:Notability (music)|bands and musicians]], [[Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies)|companies and organizations]] and [[Wikipedia:Notability (web)|web content]] and note that if you are closely associated with the subject, our [[Wikipedia:Conflict of interest|conflict of interest guideline]] strongly recommends against ''you'' creating the article. :If you still think an article is appropriate, see [[Wikipedia:Your first article]]. You might also look at [[Wikipedia:How to write a great article]] for guidance, and please consider taking a tour through the [[Wikipedia:Tutorial]] so that you know how to properly format the article before creation. An [[Wikipedia:Article wizard|Article Wizard]] is also available to walk you through creating an article.&lt;!-- Template:Creation --&gt;--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 04:33, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Citation questions and Google News &amp; Archive == {{Resolved|1=Thanks to Fuhghettaboutit.}} Hi, everyone. I have three related questions: # Is there any policy about when to use [[template:cite news|&quot;cite news&quot;]] versus [[template:cite web|&quot;cite web&quot;]] for an online news item published by a media outlet? I saw [[WP:Citation_templates]], but it didn't address the distinction explicitly. I always use &quot;cite news&quot;, but I see a lot of other people using &quot;cite web&quot;. # I'm noticing a lot of articles lately that are including cites to [[Google News]]. As most of you know, those links break very quickly, since Google News only aggregates web content from the past 30 days. I first learned of this myself from [[Template:Cite_news#Optional_parameters]], which says, in boldface, &quot;'''Do not post urls of Google hosted AP content, that content is transient. Use MSNBC, Yahoo, or another provider that keeps AP archives.'''&quot; But I was wondering whether there might be a more direct link to the same caveat, perhaps with a more complete discussion of the problem, or even a policy statment about this? # I understand that it ''is'' permissable to cite to [[Google News Archive | Google News &lt;u&gt;Archive&lt;/u&gt;]] ( external link [http://news.google.com/archivesearch here] ) for content that's not available on the web, e.g. for pre-internet era optically-scanned newspaper pages. If an editor wants to cite Google News Archive for this purpose, he should be use &quot;cite news&quot; rather than &quot;cite web&quot; to do so, and the link to Google should be placed in that template's optional &quot;archive url&quot; field, correct? I say so because although the &quot;cite web&quot; template also includes the &quot;archive url&quot; field, the plain &quot;url&quot; field is ''required'' in &quot;cite web&quot;. The editor using &quot;cite web&quot; in this case would have no alternative but to place the archive url in the plain &quot;url&quot; field. If he does so, he's likely to also neglect to fill in the optional &quot;archive url&quot; field correctly, will likely leave it blank, and this will generate a false impression in the link as it appears in the references section. Comments, please? Many thanks, &amp;nbsp;–&amp;nbsp;&lt;font face=&quot;Cambria&quot;&gt;[[User:Ohiostandard|&lt;font color=&quot;teal&quot;&gt;'''OhioStandard'''&lt;/font&gt;]] ([[User talk:Ohiostandard|talk]])&lt;/font&gt; 04:46, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :#I don't think there is any standard. Citation templates' main function is convenience and fostering uniformity in formatting citations, but their use at all [[Wikipedia:Citing sources#Citation templates and tools|is optional]]. If cite web is used where cite news could be, and vice-versa, but the use requires no extra attribution parameters that the other contains, I don't think it matters a great deal. Using the more appropriate seeming template may have some benefit in that another person coming along who wants to add further attribution in a way that is unsupported by the mismatched template will not have to switch anything. :#I don't personally remember ever seeing this discussed but I was able to dig up [[Wikipedia:External links/Noticeboard/Archive 1#Google &quot;Hosted News&quot;|this]], for what it's worth. The text to the template looks like it was boldy added rather than after a targeted discussion [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Cite_news/doc&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=294941649 diff]. :#My understanding of archive URLs is that it is not for links to sites that describe their content as &quot;archived&quot; but for links that you have actually archived against going dead. For example, by going to http://webcitation.org/ and archiving a URL, girding against linkrot which is so common for web citations. News stories that actually appeared in a newspaper never go dead, only the link to a online ''copy'' goes dead, because the paper was printed; the link is just a convenience so that users don't have to go to the library to verify content, but the story exists regardless. This is not true of web only sources. So, you can archive web content so that even if the original content goes to meet the dodos (where all the left socks reside), then the archived link saves the day. For an example of I think proper use of an archive url, see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masako_Katsura#cite_note-Memorial-106 here]. Cheers.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 11:56, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::Okay, that's helpful. It hadn't really occurred to me that the &quot;archive url&quot; fields might not be intended for services like Google News Archive, but perhaps just for &quot;one-off&quot; services like Webcitation. It does seem counterproductive, though, for links to google news to be so easy to add, and not to even have a very explicit policy about that. The links break in ( on average, I'd guesss ) in 2 - 3 weeks, and it can be difficult to replace the broken link with the intended target once that happens if a cite template that inludes, at least, the article title isn't used. But I realize - thanks for the link - that it would be hard to implement some automated way to &quot;catch&quot; links to Google News ''while they're in the process of being added''. Maybe I'll make some proposal at Village Pump about this when I can find the time. &amp;nbsp;–&amp;nbsp;&lt;font face=&quot;Cambria&quot;&gt;[[User:Ohiostandard|&lt;font color=&quot;teal&quot;&gt;'''OhioStandard'''&lt;/font&gt;]] ([[User talk:Ohiostandard|talk]])&lt;/font&gt; 17:33, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Siddha Yoga category == Can image files be deleted from a Category? Three files seem to have disappeared from Category:Siddha Yoga. They are Image:1-Lake-Nityananda(Fallsburg)-1, Image:1-Lake-Nityananda(Fallsburg)-2, 1-Lake-Nityananda(Fallsburg)- 3. Just a glitch perhaps? &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Sardaka|Sardaka]] ([[User talk:Sardaka|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sardaka|contribs]]) 8:58, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; :Hello Sardaka. First note that the category you are here about is at the Wikimedia Commons, [[Commons:Category:Siddha Yoga]]. There is no [[:Category:Siddha Yoga]] here (at Wikipedia), never has been, and we are a different (sister) website. The answer is yes, categories can be deleted from Commons images and this is what happened. See, for example, the removal of the category from [[:File:1-Lake-Nityananda(Fallsburg)-1.jpg]] at '''[http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:1-Lake-Nityananda%28Fallsburg%29-1.jpg&amp;action=history this page revision]'''. Cheers.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 10:28, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::(Hi, Fuhg!) Other editors will be much more familiar with the issue than I am, but relating to Wikipedia, rather than Commons, some contributors go out of their way to delete images from categories, believing that only articles belong in categories. I came across such an editor a while back, and objected. I even asked here at the help desk, as I recall, and I think without much response, although I can't find that in the archives now. [[Wikipedia:Help_desk/Archives/2010_June_14#Adding_Commons_images_to_en_Wiki_categories | This discussion]] from the archives might be of interest to you, as well. Of course, in the absence of any policy on Commons about this, you could [[WP:BOLD | be bold]] and revert their deletion from the category by looking at the category history if it's important to you that they be included. Best, &amp;nbsp;–&amp;nbsp;&lt;font face=&quot;Cambria&quot;&gt;[[User:Ohiostandard|&lt;font color=&quot;teal&quot;&gt;'''OhioStandard'''&lt;/font&gt;]] ([[User talk:Ohiostandard|talk]])&lt;/font&gt; 10:35, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::Hey OhioStandard. Long time no see! That's an interesting discussion, if ultimately unilluminating of what benefit there is in local categorization of Commons images (I'm not sure I see the point). I'm not much a categorization person but I'm not sure I see much point in categorizing local images either and [[WP:CAT]] says little on the subject. I wasn't focused before on the appropriateness of the removal, but now that I'm thinking about it, why would an image of a lake in New York be in a category for a Hindu spiritual movement? Ah... I see that an Ashram for the movement in the U.S. is in upstate New York, and I therefore presume it is nearby this lake; this is a tenuous connection. Sardaka I would agree with the removal of the category unless this New York State lake was somehow closely associated with the movement by third parties (not by those in the movement).--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 11:24, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::: Yes, I'm inclined to agree. The objection I had with the user I mentioned was when I noticed he was removing a category tag for something like &quot;abolition advocates&quot; from images of figures like Booker T. Washington; the category tags he was removing were definitely relevant. In retrospect I'd have to say that I'm not really familiar-enough with the issues to argue the point one way or the other, although your comments about keeping categorization on Commons seem persuasive. And, of course, it seems poor practice, as in this instance, to categorize a lake as part of a Hindu spiritual movement, unless closely identified with that movement, as per your criteria. Best, &amp;nbsp;–&amp;nbsp;&lt;font face=&quot;Cambria&quot;&gt;[[User:Ohiostandard|&lt;font color=&quot;teal&quot;&gt;'''OhioStandard'''&lt;/font&gt;]] ([[User talk:Ohiostandard|talk]])&lt;/font&gt; 14:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC) The lake in question is on the Siddha Yoga ashram property, which is why it was in that category. I can't see why anyone should have the right to delete pix like this. How do I reverse it? [[User:Sardaka|Sardaka]] ([[User talk:Sardaka|talk]]) 09:26, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == [[User:Perseus, Son of Zeus]] == The coding on my account's userpage (Perseus, Son of Zeus) seems a bit messed up. The one I'm having trouble [[Template:Vandalism information|with is this one]], centering it. Thanks! [[Special:Contributions/173.49.140.141|173.49.140.141]] ([[User talk:173.49.140.141|talk]]) 12:05, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :&lt;nowiki&gt;&quot;align=&lt;left&gt;&quot;&lt;/nowiki&gt; isn't going to work - you shouldn't be using angle-brackets around these parameters. I couldn't see how to float that template in the centre of the user page, though, so I suggest you ask the specialists at [[Wikipedia:User page design center/Help and collaboration/Help requests]]. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 13:25, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ==fix template pls== fix [[Template:Santana|this]] pls. thank you.--&lt;span style=&quot;color:Red3; background-color:#FF7F24;font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'&quot;&gt; [[User:GreatOrangePumpkin|♫Greatorangepumpkin♫]] &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:Black; background-color:#A4D3EE;font-family: 'Gigi'&quot;&gt;[[User talk:GreatOrangePumpkin|T]]&lt;/span&gt; 13:29, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :{{done}} - {{diff2|394375480|here}}. {{small|To do it, I went to the template's history page and checked a few diffs until I worked out where the problem started ({{diff2|394373003|it was here}}). I worked out what was wrong with that edit (missing &quot;&lt;nowiki&gt;}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&quot;) and re-added the &quot;&lt;nowiki&gt;}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&quot; in the correct place.}} [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 13:37, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == The Wiki for PETN Is Dangerously Complete == I was shocked to see the Wiki for PETN contained enough information on how to make and ignite the high explosive PETN. Anyone with even a basic scientific degree can follow successfully the guilines listed in this article to create an powerful explosive. Given that this article is available to anyone with internet access it presents an extreme risk of informing extremists of all types to have a new and highly available way to cuase massive damage. Is there an easy way to ask Wikipedia to remove posts like this as too detailed and complete in an area that could be used by extremists? &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/99.249.0.228|99.249.0.228]] ([[User talk:99.249.0.228|talk]]) 13:58, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :[[WP:NOTCENSORED]]. Wikipedia is not in the business of removing freely availible information from its website. Terrorism (and drug use, and pornography) doesn't end because Wikipedia contains articles on explosives (and drugs, and nude people). --[[User:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#000099&quot;&gt;Jayron&lt;/font&gt;]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;32&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' 15:30, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Images == I recently uploaded an image to [[Gossip Girl (season 4)]] but the image won't show up. Any suggestions? [[User:Jayy008|Jayy008]] ([[User talk:Jayy008|talk]]) 14:00, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :There appears to be a problem with the image thumbnail at [[:File:Gossipgirl.jpg]].&amp;nbsp;–&amp;nbsp;[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 14:06, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::Any idea how to fix it? [[User:Jayy008|Jayy008]] ([[User talk:Jayy008|talk]]) 15:18, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::Patience - it appears to be a server problem.&amp;nbsp;–&amp;nbsp;[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 15:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::Okay, thanks for the info. [[User:Jayy008|Jayy008]] ([[User talk:Jayy008|talk]]) 15:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == IMAGE DOESN'T APPEAR!!! == I don't know if my problem same as above, but the image was i talking about are all image that was made by my edit, for example, the cat image on my [[User:Adikhebat|USER PAGE]], The cat image doesn't appear in my computer.The same problem also happen on my userpage in Malay Wikipedia. The Adult Quote-tan image doesn't appear on my user page in malay version of Wikipedia.And when i see the image page,i found no problem with the image. And what confusing me now is the Images were not uploaded by me.The image doesn't appear if it was edited by me, i mean , for example when i create the template or article and put the images, the image will not show up even the images dont have any problem.Why this happen??! anyone help me!! !!!!!! &lt;small&gt;P/S:Sorry if my english suck&lt;/small&gt; --[[User:Adikhebat|Adikhebat]] ([[User talk:Adikhebat|talk]]) 14:59, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :There appears to be a server problem that is preventing display of some (maybe all) images/thumbnails. I am sure it will be resolved in due course.--[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 15:19, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::Thanks for the info --[[User:Adikhebat|Adikhebat]] ([[User talk:Adikhebat|talk]]) 15:55, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::{{done|Finally, The Problem has been solved}} --[[User:Adikhebat|Adikhebat]] ([[User talk:Adikhebat|talk]]) 16:41, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Portia de Rossi == Please list my favorite movie by Portia de Rossi on her page. Portia de Rossi was in the movie THE SHIFT in 2009. THANK YOU &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/63.225.203.118|63.225.203.118]] ([[User talk:63.225.203.118|talk]]) 15:23, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :[[WP:SOFIXIT|No one, except YOU, is more qualified to do this]]. As long as you have [[WP:CITE|proof]] that she acted in that movie, feel free to make any changes to the article as you wish. Wikipedia was built exactly this way, and no one here is more special than you. --[[User:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#000099&quot;&gt;Jayron&lt;/font&gt;]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;32&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' 15:29, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == More info for you to see Portia de Rossi credits in the movie THE SHIFT. == More info for you to see Portia de Rossi credits in the movie THE SHIFT. http://www.dyermovie.com/about/cast THANK YOU {{UnsignedIP|63.225.203.118}} == Too difficult == This has become way too difficult to use. I can't spend hours learing the myriad rules and regs. I have a regular job. Is posting maps and articles for the unemployed and at home types? &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/71.239.119.18|71.239.119.18]] ([[User talk:71.239.119.18|talk]]) 15:40, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Not really. I have a job too and edit here. Remember, everyone here is a volunteer and edits because they like to do so. If you find it too hard, then you may want to consider just reading the articles (or visiting another website). If you do want to stay, feel free to ask questions! That's what this desk is for and we're glad to help. &lt;font color=&quot;darkorange&quot;&gt;[[User:Tnxman307|TN]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;midnightblue&quot;&gt;&lt;big&gt;[[User talk:Tnxman307|X]]&lt;/big&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Tnxman307|Man]]&lt;/font&gt; 16:42, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::You won't be able to create articles or upload images, such as maps, without [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]]. After four days and ten edits your account will be [[WP:AUTOCONFIRM|autoconfirmed]] - the delay is to minimize the drive-by vandalism we unfortunately get from some unregistered users (although many are productive and valuable editors). [[WP:Article wizard|The Article wizard]] will walk you through the process of starting a new article, there's plenty of guidance available on [[WP:UI|uploading images]], and you can't break anything beyond repair. Just take on board [[WP:PILLARS|the basic principles]] and contribute where you can. [[User:Karenjc|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;Ka&lt;/font&gt;]][[User_talk:Karenjc|renjc]] 20:57, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == NOTE TO JAYRON32 == Dear Jayron32, Can you please post the info I show below... as it took me hours at this site to find the right link to ask for the new info to be added. I'm highly challenged when it comes to using the computer and navigating websites. Thank you again [[Special:Contributions/63.225.203.118|63.225.203.118]] ([[User talk:63.225.203.118|talk]]) 15:41, 2 November 2010 (UTC) Please list my favorite movie by Portia de Rossi on her page. Portia de Rossi was in the movie THE SHIFT in 2009. THANK YOU —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.225.203.118 (talk) 15:23, 2 November 2010 (UTC) No one, except YOU, is more qualified to do this. As long as you have proof that she acted in that movie, feel free to make any changes to the article as you wish. Wikipedia was built exactly this way, and no one here is more special than you. --Jayron32 15:29, 2 November 2010 (UTC) [edit] More info for you to see Portia de Rossi credits in the movie THE SHIFT. More info for you to see Portia de Rossi credits in the movie THE SHIFT. http://www.dyermovie.com/about/cast THANK YOU —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.225.203.118 (talk) :{{done}}. Thanks for the reference. --[[User:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#000099&quot;&gt;Jayron&lt;/font&gt;]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;32&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' 16:21, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == References in section titles == Do references belong in a section title? Example: section &quot;Top projects&quot; in [[Kickstarter|Kickstarter]]. --[[User:Mortense|Mortense]] ([[User talk:Mortense|talk]]) 16:56, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :References don't belong in section titles and have been removed from there in [[Kickstarter]] ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kickstarter&amp;oldid=394405044 old version before removal]). [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 17:39, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ==Formatting== I followed the instructions carefully but am still having troubles formatting this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Carofiglio I have inserted references but the final page hides some paragraphs. I get no errors or any useful suggestions from the help page.Can it have to do with the fact that the article is in English but includes references in Italian? Can anyone please help me? &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Aminervi|Aminervi]] ([[User talk:Aminervi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Aminervi|contribs]]) 17:03, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :I've fixed up the page some. Does this fix the issues you saw? &lt;font color=&quot;darkorange&quot;&gt;[[User:Tnxman307|TN]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;midnightblue&quot;&gt;&lt;big&gt;[[User talk:Tnxman307|X]]&lt;/big&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Tnxman307|Man]]&lt;/font&gt; 17:17, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Looking to make a wikipedia page but worried about slander/defamation == The company I look for (a collection agency) is thinking about making a wikipedia page listing our history, etc. but we are worried about additional content that may be added. No one likes debt collection agencies and there could be a lot of unneeded negative comments added. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/12.238.215.230|12.238.215.230]] ([[User talk:12.238.215.230|talk]]) 17:54, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :First, ensure you don't run into conflict of interest. See [[WP:COI]]. Then, understand that Wikipedia is not a social website or internet listing. It is an encyclopedia. See [[WP:NOT]]. What makes your collection agency notable? See [[WP:NOTABLE]]. Finally, if there is bad press about your company, that bad press will likely be reflected in the article. It is not slander. It is not defamation. It is what Wikipedia does: provide information found in reliable resources. -- [[User:Kainaw|&lt;font color='#ff0000'&gt;k&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color='#cc0033'&gt;a&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color='#990066'&gt;i&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color='#660099'&gt;n&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color='#3300cc'&gt;a&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color='#0000ff'&gt;w&lt;/font&gt;]][[User talk:Kainaw|&amp;trade;]] 18:02, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::This is a classic case where you should read [[WP:LUC]] before going any further. Once an article exists, other people are free to add properly cited information to it. Your company should not be creating articles about itself anyway, but if you are concerned about retaining editorial control over what is written about your firm, starting a Wikipedia article is probably not the best idea. [[User:Karenjc|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;Ka&lt;/font&gt;]][[User_talk:Karenjc|renjc]] 20:36, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Right to vanish == I request my current and earlier user accounts to [[WP:VANISH|vanish]] - see my [[User talk:Cayden|talk page]]. They have been retired for some time, but I would like them totally deleted. [[User:Cayden|Cayden]] ([[User talk:Cayden|talk]]) 19:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Your pages have been deleted. Just stop editing and you're set. Godspeed. &lt;font color=&quot;darkorange&quot;&gt;[[User:Tnxman307|TN]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;midnightblue&quot;&gt;&lt;big&gt;[[User talk:Tnxman307|X]]&lt;/big&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Tnxman307|Man]]&lt;/font&gt; 19:39, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::Thanks for deleting some of the pages, but I don't think you understand that I wanted both accounts to totally vanish with any user, usertalk and subpages, contributions, and anything else. I'd like them to completely vanish. [[User:Cayden|Cayden]] ([[User talk:Cayden|talk]]) 20:03, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::Your contributions are part of the historical record and cannot be vanished. I will delete your talk page archives and anything else in your userspace. --[[User:Orangemike|&lt;font color=&quot;darkorange&quot;&gt;Orange Mike&lt;/font&gt;]] &amp;#x007C; [[User talk:Orangemike|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]] 20:17, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::Thanks. I'm sure in the past that was possible, but perhaps things have changed. [[User:Cayden|Cayden]] ([[User talk:Cayden|talk]]) 20:26, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Quick AFD help == [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion#AFD_Jenn_Rivell With this here]. It's been a while since I seriously used Wikipedia for things like this. Thanks! --[[User:Endlessdan|Endlessdan]] ([[User talk:Endlessdan|talk]]) 20:15, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Fixed it. You substed where you shouldn't have. --[[User:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#000099&quot;&gt;Jayron&lt;/font&gt;]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;32&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' 20:23, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::Also, don't forget to add it to the list at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2010 November 2]]. If you need help, I can do this for you as well. --[[User:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#000099&quot;&gt;Jayron&lt;/font&gt;]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;32&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' 20:25, 2 November 2010 (UTC) Can you do this for me? I used to be a pro at AFD noms but have since slipped in time. Thanks again. --[[User:Endlessdan|Endlessdan]] ([[User talk:Endlessdan|talk]]) 20:40, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Flags not showing up == The Flag of Nigeria is not working. &lt;font face=&quot;Courier&quot;&gt;[[User:Velociraptor888|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;'''Velo'''&lt;/font&gt;]][[User talk:Velociraptor888|&lt;font color=&quot;purple&quot;&gt;'''ciraptor'''&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:Contributions/Velociraptor888|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;'''888'''&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/font&gt; 21:26, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Other people have reported problems with pictures today; there may be a server problem. I can see the flag at the top right of the [[Nigeria]] article, if that's any help. Look again tomorrow? -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 21:44, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::Could you please elaborate more? --[[User:Monterey Bay|Monterey Bay]] ([[User talk:Monterey Bay|talk]]) 21:47, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::Are you asking me or Velociraptor to elaborate? I'm referring to ukexpat's comment in [[#IMAGE_DOESN.27T_APPEAR.21.21.21|this section]]; I don't have any more detail than that. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 21:52, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::I am referring to Velociraptor's comment in which he indicated the flag of Nigeria isn't working. --[[User:Monterey Bay|Monterey Bay]] ([[User talk:Monterey Bay|talk]]) 21:58, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Professor22 looking for input on NOR == I'm trying to figure out how to edit an article on your page with incorrect information. I have two scholarly resources to validate what I'm saying but you completely blocked me from being able to edit anything at all. I'm a professor of Microeconomics at the University of Las Vegas Nevada. I'm logged in as a user and have NOT violated your wikipedia &quot;no original research&quot; rules. You can verify everything I'm saying. Sure, there's nothing neutral about the stance I'm taking but it's not an issue that suppose to be neutral. It's pretty black and white and involves money. As it stands, your page is distributing false information. I can easily log into another computer and hide the IP address :) Lets be adults about this. Why don't you tell me exactly which part of the &quot;no original research&quot; policy I violated... Here's the resources for the article I want to post: Mankiw, Gregory (2004) &quot;Principles of Microeconomics&quot; Harvard University. Miller, Roger Leroy (2001) &quot;The Economics of Public Issues&quot; Institute for University Studies in Arlington, Texas. {{unsigned|Professor22}} - &lt;small&gt;reposted by [[User:Onorem|Onorem]][[Special:Contributions/Onorem|♠]][[User talk:Onorem|Dil]] 21:42, 2 November 2010 (UTC) after initial post blanked the help desk&lt;/small&gt; :I have to sign off for now, but for clarity's sake am including a link to the edit in question, which I reverted numerous times as original research, unencyclopedic in tone, and non-neutral commentary. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Illegal_immigration&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=394451588]. [[User:JNW|JNW]] ([[User talk:JNW|talk]]) 21:46, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::I sympathise. It's an argument presumably sourced from a book, but without page numbers and given the style of the edit, virtually impossible to verify - see [[WP:VERIFY]]. It reads like an op ed piece - shorthand, 'our country', 'guy', ALL CAPS, etc. You wouldn't expect to find this in a print encyclopedia and it doesn't belong in this encyclopedia. Just tell us, in more or less formal language, what Mankiw and Miller say about illegal immigration. I've tried to check Mankiw online and can't find anything in his book that mentions illegal immigration other than to say that people tend to focus on it. If they don't specifically discuss illegal immigration, applying anything they say about economics to the subject of illegal immigration is what we call original research, see [[WP:OR]]. [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 21:58, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ==Getting logged out== Hey, I have two accounts with wikipedia and can't access either one. I haven't been blocked or anything, and when I log in it's successful, but then when I go to any other page, I'm logged out again. I have no idea why. Could someone please give me any advice on this at my email address &lt;removed&gt;?? PS, my two accounts are fiveby5 and angelsinthearchitecture. I only need to be able to access one, the second I just created after I couldn't get into the first. :See [[Help:Logging in#Login issues and problems]], especially the sub-section &quot;I get logged out just after logging in&quot;. I have removed your email address to protect your privacy; replies to Help Desk questions are made here. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 21:56, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Multiple images == I've tried to use the template {{tl|multiple images}}, but I can't get it to work as I might like. I have a verticle list of images and I want them to become thinner and shorter. I change the &lt;tt&gt;width&lt;/tt&gt; parameter, but that only changes the width of the images, and ''not'' the width of the box containing all of the images and the text. Take a look at [[User talk:Fly by Night/Medals]] and see if you can find a way to fix it. I want it to be more discreet. It looks great with &lt;tt&gt;width = 100&lt;/tt&gt;, but that's far too wide. It's bigger than my user page. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;&quot;&gt;— [[User:Fly by Night|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Segoe print&quot;&gt;'''''Fly by Night'''''&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;font color=&quot;#000000&quot;&gt;([[User talk:Fly by Night|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Segoe print&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/span&gt;]])&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 23:45, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :I [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Fly_by_Night/Medals&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=394485991 took a stab], converting it to a table. However, I'm not great at this coding and I'm sure someone can either tweak what I've done or offer another way, but I see that your previous post about this from 3 days ago was never responded so I gave it a try. I'm afraid the images no longer link to specific pages but just to the image pages themselves, and I'm not sure how to fix that. Is it better? Feel free to revert of course.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 00:27, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::Actually I just figured out how to link, which was very easy, with the simply parameter &lt;code&gt;|link=&lt;/code&gt; (If I remember, we didn't used to be able to do this with normal image markup).--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 00:46, 3 November 2010 (UTC) = November 3 = == Image fail == Why doesn't [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donington_Park&amp;diff=394471767&amp;oldid=394039792 this] edit work? (A new graphic has been created, but does not display ... even if I look at the page source, and copy and paste the link, the image won't display). What have I missed? [[User:Guinness2702|Guinness]] ([[User talk:Guinness2702|talk]]) 00:27, 3 November 2010 (UTC) :There is currently a thumbnail display problem for some images, it seems. (See also this discussion: [[Wikipedia:VPT#Image_scalers]]) &lt;font style=&quot;font-family: 'Times New Roman'&quot;&gt;[[User:Intelligentsium|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#013220&quot;&gt;Intelligent&lt;/span&gt;]]'''[[User_talk:Intelligentsium|&lt;span style=&quot;color:Black&quot;&gt;sium&lt;/span&gt;]]'''&lt;/font&gt; 00:36, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::I don't know why it fixed it but I tried reducing the number of pixels moderately and it works now.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 00:38, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::: Odd, but thanks :) at least I know it's not something *I've* done ;) [[User:Guinness2702|Guinness]] ([[User talk:Guinness2702|talk]]) 00:47, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::::I hereby designate you as the sitewide scapegoat for all technical problems. You should apologize to each of our {{NUMBEROFUSERS}} users.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 00:51, 3 November 2010 (UTC) :::::I'll do Aaron A. Aaronson, but I'll ask him to pass it on to the next one :) [[User:Guinness2702|Guinness]] ([[User talk:Guinness2702|talk]]) 01:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::::::&lt;nowiki&gt;:-)&lt;/nowiki&gt; Of course, [[User:!!]] is our [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3APrefixIndex&amp;prefix=&amp;namespace=2 first user], alphabetically speaking.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 01:57, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == Qantity of Categories in english Wikipedia? == I am currently in the process of writing a paper about Wikipedia Categories. Ive done most of my research using Wikipedia API to get approximate numbers and to analyze categories structure. But i also want to know how many categories does Wikipedia has at the moment, and i just cant find this information. I could, of course, just install a previous Wikipeda DB dump and make a query to cout all categories, but that is an overkill. And using API for that would take too much time and strain Wikipedia servers. So i am asking this question here: How many cartegories does Wikipedia have and is there a place where this info is posted or could be extracted from? &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:DSUmanskiy|DSUmanskiy]] ([[User talk:DSUmanskiy|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/DSUmanskiy|contribs]]) 00:58, 3 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Normally, you would use the &quot;magicword&quot; &lt;nowiki&gt;{{PAGESINNS:name}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;, replacing &quot;name&quot; with the namespace you wish to return, so you would replace it with Category. However, this feature appears to be disabled, per [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words#Variables this page]. You may be able to get the devs to activate it briefly, or possibly you could find other ways to do it. Try asking at [[WP:VPT|The Technical Village Pump]], which is patroled by people who know how to do this stuff. --[[User:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#000099&quot;&gt;Jayron&lt;/font&gt;]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;32&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' 02:21, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::Thank you for your answer:) I will look into that. The magicwords seem pretty awesome and i think they might do the job. If i figure out how to use them that it:) And persuade the devs. --[[User:DSUmanskiy|DSUmanskiy]] ([[User talk:DSUmanskiy|talk]]) 11:31, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == Image problem with new page == I have created a new article [[Ignatius Cooper Grubb]] and uploaded an image [[:File:Ignatius Cooper Grubb.jpg]]. I can't get the image to display appropriately in the article. 1) it is too large, and 2) it seems to have some extraneous info surrounding the image. I have reviewed other articles with images and tried techniques I observed (like |thumb|), but nothing seems to work. Appreciate some guidance, the article is otherwise about complete. [[User:LynnSGrubb|LynnSGrubb]] ([[User talk:LynnSGrubb|talk]]) 04:15, 3 November 2010 (UTC) :{{Done}}; by the looks of it, images placed in [[Template:Infobox officeholder]] do not need all that fancy coding around it. All you need to do is place the file name in the &quot;image&quot; parameter, and then specify the size in the &quot;imagesize&quot; parameter below it. Note that there seems to be some problems as of current that involve sized images not rendering correctly; for instance, when I re-size your image as 250px instead of 200px in the article, it causes the image to not show up for me. It's basically just a problem with the servers. This should be fixed in due time, &lt;small&gt;I think&lt;/small&gt;. &lt;b&gt;~&lt;i&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#07517C&quot;&gt;[[User:SuperHamster|Super]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#6FA23B&quot;&gt;[[User:SuperHamster|Hamster]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt; &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:SuperHamster|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/SuperHamster|Contribs]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:37, 3 November 2010 (UTC) :{{ec}} The usage of images in infoboxes can be idiosyncratic. Usually (but not always) the image = (or sometimes imagename = ) parameter is looking for the image name WITHOUT any brackets or the File: prefix. Secondly, the imagesize = parameter is optional sometimes, but in this case it looks like you need to enter a resonably small imagesize (i used 200px) to make it work in this infobox. Like every other part of Wikipedia, infobox templates developed ''organicly'' and often independently, so often it isn't all that intuitive how they will work. If you check how I fixed your problem, it will usually work on ''most'' infoboxes, but be prepared for it to get screwy once in a while. Trial and error and experience will generally get you good results (its what I did to fix this problem). (post-ec) Looks like I editconflicted both here and at the article with SuperHamster. We pretty much did exactly the same thing. --[[User:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#000099&quot;&gt;Jayron&lt;/font&gt;]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;32&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' 04:43, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::I've removed the image, since it was taking up quite a bit of space! [[User:Arctic Night|'''&lt;font color=&quot;#3399FF&quot;&gt;Arctic&lt;/font&gt;''']] [[User talk:Arctic Night|'''&lt;font color=&quot;#000000&quot;&gt;Night&lt;/font&gt;''']] 07:13, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == [[Persons of National Historic Significance]] == Does anybody know how to get an '&lt;nowiki&gt;align=&quot;center&quot;&lt;/nowiki&gt;' tag to apply to a whole column in a table? I would hate to have to keep typing that lot out every time I create a new row... [[User:Arctic Night|'''&lt;font color=&quot;#3399FF&quot;&gt;Arctic&lt;/font&gt;''']] [[User talk:Arctic Night|'''&lt;font color=&quot;#000000&quot;&gt;Night&lt;/font&gt;''']] 06:18, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == Religion of Firoz Gandhi == I want to ask was Firoz Gandhi &quot;Muslim&quot; by religion and later on he changed his religion? Please elaborate it. Thanks....... &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/59.164.9.74|59.164.9.74]] ([[User talk:59.164.9.74|talk]]) 08:55, 3 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Hi, I think the [[Wikipedia:Reference desk|Reference desk]] would probably be the most appropriate forum for asking this question. [[User:Arctic Night|'''&lt;font color=&quot;#3399FF&quot;&gt;Arctic&lt;/font&gt;''']] [[User talk:Arctic Night|'''&lt;font color=&quot;#000000&quot;&gt;Night&lt;/font&gt;''']] 08:58, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == merging siren articles == I am trying to merge/redirect the following articles (all small and unable to advance): ACA P-15 ACA Cyclone ACA Hurricane ASC T-135 to the List_of_sirens_built_by_Alerting_Communicators_of_America article. Can anyone help me out with this? Everytime I try to redirect, it just doesn't work. --[[User:JustInn014|JustInn014]] ([[User talk:JustInn014|talk]]) 09:09, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == rev list == my name is willem kroesbergen and i made a short page about myself. i tried to add a footnote, but i get the following error: Cite error: There are &lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;ref&gt; tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{Reflist}} template or a &lt;references/&gt; tag; see the help page.&lt;/nowiki&gt; but with the information wikipedia gives, i am not able to make a reflist. please can you help me how to edit my page willem kroesbergen to ad the following footnote: JSTOR: Early Music, Vol.22,no3(Aug., 1994)pp.482-495 it will be helpful to ad some information to make it easier to solve this problem for others. thank you. willem kroesbergen {{unsigned|Kick030|10:16, 3 November 2010}} :I see that another editor has fixed the problem. The error message included a link to a [[Help:Cite errors/Cite error refs without references|page]] that tries to explain how to fix the problem. You might like to read [[Help:Footnotes]] as an introduction. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 10:26, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == Edit war == In article Sriracha, I keep adding my edit with appropriate citation and rationale for the edit. However, another user has initiated an edit war with me and refusing to provide any comment on why he/she is removing my edit. [[Special:Contributions/99.231.241.146|99.231.241.146]] ([[User talk:99.231.241.146|talk]]) 11:21, 3 November 2010 (UTC) :'''Several''' editors have undone your sketchy edits. Your edits are not being accepted because they are not from a reliable source. Go do something productive and stop warring.--[[User:Kintetsubuffalo|Chris (クリス • フィッチ)]] ([[User talk:Kintetsubuffalo|talk]]) 11:24, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::Note that your edit contains no source. I request a third-party to evaluate the merit of my source compared to kintetsubuffalo's (lack of) source. [[Special:Contributions/99.231.241.146|99.231.241.146]] ([[User talk:99.231.241.146|talk]]) 11:27, 3 November 2010 (UTC) :::I'm a non-involved third-party. I have a couple of points: :::*As far as I can see, no one provided an [[WP:Edit summary|edit summary]] when they reverted 99.231: in my view this edit war could have been prevented had someone taken the time to communicate with 99.231. :::*99.231, [http://www.huyfong.com/no_frames/company.htm this] is not a good source. It simply shows that this company produced the sauce: it does not say what you are claiming, specifically it does not say that this sauce is Vietnamese. Just because an American company produces a sauce and has a Vietnamese founder does not make a sauce Vietnamese. :::All of you need to discuss this [[Talk:Sriracha_sauce#Edit_war_between_myself_and_kintetsubuffalo|further]] and stop reverting. If you continue this edit war I'll [[WP:GOLDLOCK|protect]] the article until such time as you can discuss this issue and gain [[WP:CON|consensus]] for any proposed changes. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 11:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:DangerousPanda&diff=394550264</id> <title>User talk:DangerousPanda</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:DangerousPanda&diff=394550264"/> <updated>2010-11-03T09:33:13Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: /* Userspace draft: PIUG - 2 */ cmt <hr /> <div>{{User:MiszaBot/config |archiveheader = Things you probably never read on Bwilkins' talk page in the first place |maxarchivesize = 250K |counter = 5 |algo = old(15d) |archive = User talk:Bwilkins/Archive %(counter)d }} &lt;!-- {{away|Mar 20, 2010|I'm out on assignment}} --&gt; {{User:Bwilkins/Templates/background|pagetop}} {{talkheader}} == Linkels Josy == I hope it doesn't look like I am wiki hounding this user at all, however I have all his pages on my watchlist and have gone around and cleaned all the pages he has added to his desired categories, more then likely, because of a bad cut and paste or wiki formatting. He has asked 2 people for help in his history here, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Natalya&amp;oldid=382591053] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Seresin&amp;oldid=381394808] to which no one has replied, now he has also asked for an [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Editor_review&amp;oldid=382870268|editor review]]. I do enjoy his editing summaries about being a fan of the UK, (Sarcasm) because UK editors are the only editors on the en.Wikipedia(Sarcasm). I just wanted to touch base with you since we both seem to trying to prod this user into proper usage of Wikipedia. {{unsigned|Mcmatter}} == Global Peace Service Alliance == Another one here![[Global Peace Service Alliance]] &lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana;&quot;&gt;'''&lt;font color=&quot;Black&quot;&gt;[[User:Teapotgeorge|Teapot]]&lt;/font&gt;'''&lt;font color=&quot;silver&quot;&gt;[[User:Teapotgeorge|george]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;[[User talk:Teapotgeorge|&lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 21:32, 18 October 2010 (UTC) == CSD restriction == It appears to be up now. I'm allowed to tag articles for CSD now.......right? &lt;font color=&quot;Darkorange&quot;&gt;[[User:Inka 888|&lt;tt&gt;I&lt;/tt&gt;n&lt;tt&gt;k&lt;/tt&gt;a&lt;tt&gt;8&lt;/tt&gt;8&lt;tt&gt;8&lt;/tt&gt;]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Inka 888|&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;''Contribs''&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Inka 888|&lt;font color=&quot;228b22&quot;&gt;''Talk''&lt;/font&gt;]] 03:34, 19 October 2010 (UTC) :{{tps}} I guess, but '''''be careful!''''' Maybe start out by only tagging blatant vandalism pages for a while. [[User:Access Denied|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;Access Denied&lt;/font&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Access Denied|&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;[FATAL ERROR]&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:36, 19 October 2010 (UTC) == User talk:Tigre tiger == I did not tell her/him that he has to do anything, I was strongly suggesting that s/he creates longer articles than &quot;Fermentelos is a town in Portugal&quot;. &lt;font color=&quot;Darkorange&quot;&gt;[[User:Inka 888|&lt;tt&gt;I&lt;/tt&gt;n&lt;tt&gt;k&lt;/tt&gt;a&lt;tt&gt;8&lt;/tt&gt;8&lt;tt&gt;8&lt;/tt&gt;]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Inka 888|&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;''Contribs''&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Inka 888|&lt;font color=&quot;228b22&quot;&gt;''Talk''&lt;/font&gt;]] 19:47, 24 October 2010 (UTC) :{{tps}} Another route would have been tagging the article with &quot;needs expansion&quot; and &quot;needs attention from an expert&quot; (or a couple others that are probably as valid) and then leaving a note on the creator's talk page saying &quot;Hey, I noticed you created a new article, and I've tagged the article with... so that others will hopefully jump in and help out. You may also want to use the (underconstruction) tag to let people know you are working on expanding the articles... or work on the article in your sandbox (appropriate links, etc) until you've fleshed it out...&quot; (etc). :Sometimes, strong suggestions, even with the best of intentions, can be interpreted the wrong way or scare off new editors not familiar with the best ways of starting articles. :-) Best, Rob &lt;small&gt;[[User:RobertMfromLI|&lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid #00d;background:#EEE;padding:1px;&quot;&gt;R&lt;small&gt;OBERT&lt;/small&gt;M&lt;small&gt;FROM&lt;/small&gt;LI&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:RobertMfromLI|TALK]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/RobertMfromLI|CNTRB]]&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 19:56, 24 October 2010 (UTC) == ThomasK == Greetings -- remember [[User_talk:ThomasK|this guy]]? (Since you were the last one to interact with him on that talk page.) He's back again, whining because I busted him for editing daily for the last couple months or so, and range-blocked him. Sometimes he posts unblock requests claiming to be innocent, but sometimes, like tonight, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3A188.23.188.209&amp;action=historysubmit&amp;diff=392720184&amp;oldid=392719376 claims that I'm persecuting him]. I don't feel like giving him another chance ... he's had a lot ... do you? [[User:Antandrus|Antandrus ]] [[User_talk:Antandrus|(talk)]] 03:34, 25 October 2010 (UTC) : It appears that Daniel Case gave him what he deserves ... ([[User talk:Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;talk→&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid black;&quot;&gt;'''&amp;nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&amp;nbsp;'''&lt;/span&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;←track&lt;/font&gt;]]) 07:20, 25 October 2010 (UTC) == FYI == Someone is [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Bwilkins&amp;curid=4381154&amp;diff=392739122&amp;oldid=391075245 comparing] you to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad... [[User:Access Denied|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;Access Denied&lt;/font&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Access Denied|&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;[FATAL ERROR]&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 06:32, 25 October 2010 (UTC) : Thanks for catching that! Much appreciated ([[User talk:Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;talk→&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid black;&quot;&gt;'''&amp;nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&amp;nbsp;'''&lt;/span&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;←track&lt;/font&gt;]]) 07:14, 25 October 2010 (UTC) == funny! == You know, I've heard that expression so many times, but you found the moment of a lifetime to use it. And on UTM...who'd have guessed? I actually laughed out loud. And then I saw the section above this one on your talk page and laughed again. Cheers. --[[User:Bsherr|Bsherr]] ([[User talk:Bsherr|talk]]) 22:57, 25 October 2010 (UTC) : Every so often, I slip a good one [[Bach|back]] in where it rarely belongs :-) Glad you laughed in both cases! ([[User talk:Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;talk→&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid black;&quot;&gt;'''&amp;nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&amp;nbsp;'''&lt;/span&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;←track&lt;/font&gt;]]) 23:01, 25 October 2010 (UTC) ::Oy. Har, har. Keep your day job. Looks like your straight man decided he did enough explaining and went ahead with the change anyway. Should we shatter his bliss by telling him they're synonymous, or leave it be? --[[User:Bsherr|Bsherr]] ([[User talk:Bsherr|talk]]) 23:05, 25 October 2010 (UTC) == ? == I honestly think you have the wrong idea here- I requested unblock in [[WP:AGF|good faith]]- I only requested it for [[User:Draxacoffilus]] as I helped him make the account in the first place(as this school is blocked from creating new users). But I know now that you're not allowed to do that, so it's a nonissue. As far as the unblock request goes, I merely posted the template that was on my screen when I tried editing. Some talk pages work, and some don't... I didn't conjure that message out of thin air. I really don't understand why you would post things like that on others talk pages, All I've done on Wikipedia is try to contribute to the project. Regards, &lt;span style='font-family:Calibri'&gt;'''[[User:TheRasIsBack|&lt;span style='color:#191970;background-color:#778899;'&gt;TheRas&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:TheRasIsBack|&lt;span style='color:#778899;background-color:#191970;'&gt;IsBack!&lt;/span&gt;]]'''&lt;/span&gt; 01:30, 26 October 2010 (UTC). : The fact that you ''could'' post elsewhere - including here - shows you weren't blocked. Considering everything, you were dicking around, plain and simple. As per the edit notice on this page, do try and keep conversations together ([[User talk:Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;talk→&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid black;&quot;&gt;'''&amp;nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&amp;nbsp;'''&lt;/span&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;←track&lt;/font&gt;]]) 09:40, 26 October 2010 (UTC) == bot question == I've noticed the bot 7SeriesBOT doing a deletion, and leaving a summary like this: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&amp;page=User+talk%3ARodney1956]. It doesn't delete a talk-page anyone other than the owner has written on, does it? Question: If only the user himself had written on that talk-page, shouldn't this be visible from the deletion-edit summary? [[User:Greswik|Greswik]] ([[User talk:Greswik|talk]]) 15:47, 27 October 2010 (UTC) : If anyone else other than the person had written on the talkpage, it would be non-compliant with the bot's approved rules, and would not be deleted. U1 covers many things: draft articles, etc but only 1 edit summary can be used for all U1's ... so, stating that it meets U1 appropriately ... and linking to the policy ... is typically clear enough. ([[User talk:Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;talk→&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid black;&quot;&gt;'''&amp;nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&amp;nbsp;'''&lt;/span&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;←track&lt;/font&gt;]]) 17:53, 27 October 2010 (UTC) == Could you have a look == As your online could you have a look at [[Currys &amp; PC World]] new article we already have articles on both separately and not sure what speedy tag to place or which article to redirect too hanks. [[User:Mo ainm|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#B22222;font-family:serif;text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;&quot;&gt;'''''Mo ainm'''''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Mo ainm|&lt;span style=&quot;color:black;font-family:cursive;font-size:80%&quot;&gt;~Talk&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:10, 30 October 2010 (UTC) : Delete seemed to make sense at this point. ([[User talk:Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;talk→&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid black;&quot;&gt;'''&amp;nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&amp;nbsp;'''&lt;/span&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;←track&lt;/font&gt;]]) 12:16, 30 October 2010 (UTC) :: Grand thanks I see you added a little Salt also. [[User:Mo ainm|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#B22222;font-family:serif;text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;&quot;&gt;'''''Mo ainm'''''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Mo ainm|&lt;span style=&quot;color:black;font-family:cursive;font-size:80%&quot;&gt;~Talk&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:24, 30 October 2010 (UTC) ::: Can you do me a favour, however: discuss with the creating editor whether we should have one giant article about Currys and PC World as one topic, and redirect the individual articles to it? In other words, do we now merge the 2 individual articles into one - which might be what he's trying to do? Let me know. ([[User talk:Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;talk→&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid black;&quot;&gt;'''&amp;nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&amp;nbsp;'''&lt;/span&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;←track&lt;/font&gt;]]) 12:28, 30 October 2010 (UTC) :::: Will do. [[User:Mo ainm|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#B22222;font-family:serif;text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;&quot;&gt;'''''Mo ainm'''''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Mo ainm|&lt;span style=&quot;color:black;font-family:cursive;font-size:80%&quot;&gt;~Talk&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:32, 30 October 2010 (UTC) == Sonicyouth86 twisting/misinterpreting your comments == Hi, sorry to bother you but [[User:Sonicyouth86]] has been suggesting your comments at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ACybermud&amp;action=historysubmit&amp;diff=392880454&amp;oldid=391910091 to [[User:Cybermud]] were directed at me also. I think your text is fairly unambiguous and it's clear exactly who you were talking about (afterall I was the first person to suggest Cybermud should drop his SP accusation in relation to [[User:NickLevinson]] so many of the comments wouldn't make sense if directed at me). Anyway, Sonicyouth86 is adamant that you were warning me, suggesting I should &quot;read the comment by the administrator about your conduct&quot; etc and refuses to listen to me due to the fact I've issued a warning on their talk page previously (though I also gave one to Cybermud). Therefore, assuming you weren't talking about me, please could you possibly make [[User:Sonicyouth86]] aware of the facts of the matter? Apologies for bothering you with this, but I think it would be better to nip this in the bud now and obviously there's more chance they might listen to you than myself. Thanks--[[User:Shakehandsman|Shakehandsman]] ([[User talk:Shakehandsman|talk]]) 04:44, 31 October 2010 (UTC) : Ok, all I'm finding are walls'o'text...you'll need to show me where exactly he's suggesting the comment applied to others. ([[User talk:Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;talk→&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid black;&quot;&gt;'''&amp;nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&amp;nbsp;'''&lt;/span&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;←track&lt;/font&gt;]]) 10:22, 31 October 2010 (UTC) ::Sorry I forgot the second link, he's making the statement it applies to others on his: talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Sonicyouth86#Misrepresenting_views.2Factions_of_others_.28aka_.22Wikipedia_according_to_Shakehandsman.22.29--[[User:Shakehandsman|Shakehandsman]] ([[User talk:Shakehandsman|talk]]) 15:36, 31 October 2010 (UTC) == About my request fo undeletion of Performance_(band) == Hello, I got no reply from you here : [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_undeletion#Performance_.28band.29]. Would you please discuss it? Thanks, [[User:NikoDisorder|NikoDisorder]] ([[User talk:NikoDisorder|talk]]) 10:14, 31 October 2010 (UTC) : You already stated the problem: no sourcing for the one claim that might make it notable. Other than that, it's not. ([[User talk:Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;talk→&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid black;&quot;&gt;'''&amp;nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&amp;nbsp;'''&lt;/span&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;←track&lt;/font&gt;]]) 10:21, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :: I did my homework and found proper sources, they're [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_undeletion#Performance_.28band.29 here] :: [[User:NikoDisorder|NikoDisorder]] ([[User talk:NikoDisorder|talk]]) 20:58, 31 October 2010 (UTC) == Talkback == {{talkback|Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive636|User:Danielwork - ignoring consensus &amp; others' talk|ts=11:05, 31 October 2010 (UTC)}} : #1, do not use TB notices on this page. #2, do not edit archives of ANI. ([[User talk:Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;talk→&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid black;&quot;&gt;'''&amp;nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&amp;nbsp;'''&lt;/span&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;←track&lt;/font&gt;]]) 11:12, 31 October 2010 (UTC) ::&lt;sheepish look&gt; I know I left you a previous TB above a couple weeks ago regarding a Dweeby123 discussion on HJM's page. (And only afterwards did I see your Edit Summary &quot;ugh ... NO TB templates&quot; in my Watchlist when you deleted someone else's {TB} a week later.) Should I delete my TB above (Oct 15)? I think having it sit there might be unintentionally encouraging others!&lt;br&gt; ::&lt;p&gt;I kept thinking, &quot;either BWilkins just added that 'No TalkBack' notice to his New Section page notice, or he's being VERY kind about my not seeing it!&quot; &lt;br&gt; ::best regards, &amp;mdash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:DennisDallas|DennisDallas]] ([[User talk:DennisDallas|talk]]) 13:42, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :&lt;b&gt;''Nota Bene:''&lt;/b&gt; Looks like my post may be moot, since the Archiving Bot came thru between the start &amp; Save of my writing &amp; cleared off mine &amp; two other posts at the top of the Talkpage.&lt;br&gt; :&lt;p&gt;Still love to hear your feedback whether I was pre-No-TB or if you were just being kindly to a TB newbie. &amp;mdash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:DennisDallas|DennisDallas]] ([[User talk:DennisDallas|talk]]) 14:07, 31 October 2010 (UTC)&lt;r&gt; :&lt;small&gt;And for the Peanut Gallery looking on, I am &lt;b&gt;not&lt;/b&gt; the current offender of this TB / ANI edit being discussed by BMW. &amp;mdash;&amp;nbsp;DD 14:15, 31 October 2010 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt; :: I'm reasonably patient :-) especially with newer editors! ([[User talk:Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;talk→&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid black;&quot;&gt;'''&amp;nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&amp;nbsp;'''&lt;/span&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;←track&lt;/font&gt;]]) 17:15, 31 October 2010 (UTC) == Hijacked Article == Hi there could you please help with my article [[Jatt]] its been hijacked by a user i have requested him on many occasions to stop but he is persistent. i started the article with accurate historical references which he has included into his own article based on a geographicly different tribe and now if i revert the changes by the the bot tells me i am the vandal. any help would be appreciated. thx--[[User:Qaleechpuri|Qaleechpuri]] ([[User talk:Qaleechpuri|talk]]) 11:07, 31 October 2010 (UTC) : Pardon me, but '''''[[WP:OWN|your article]]'''''? ([[User talk:Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;talk→&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid black;&quot;&gt;'''&amp;nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&amp;nbsp;'''&lt;/span&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;←track&lt;/font&gt;]]) 11:14, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :sorry not my article but the article[[Jatt]]--[[User:Qaleechpuri|Qaleechpuri]] ([[User talk:Qaleechpuri|talk]]) 11:19, 31 October 2010 (UTC) == Once upon a time... == ...a 2-week old editor was [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&amp;type=block&amp;page=User%3ASpecialKCL66 blocked] for edit warring on the O'Keefe and ACORN Video articles. He became frustrated and a little hostile, and was further blocked from editing his own talk page. An hour later, a [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&amp;dir=prev&amp;offset=20101025010151&amp;limit=500&amp;target=DoctorFuManchu new account] is created. Quack. The account name has since been changed, but used to be similar to the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:DoctorFuManchu&amp;diff=393398461&amp;oldid=393395099 name of an individual] closely associated with O'Keefe and the ACORN videos. Quack, quack. After editing some obscure, totally unrelated articles about water skiers, the very next day this editor is editing the O'Keefe and ACORN Video articles -- from the ''identical'' point of view of the previously blocked editor, and are conversing supportively with each other. Quack, quack, quack. Since you have dealt with both accounts, can you tell me if there is reason to pick up a hunting rifle, or am I standing here with a fishing pole? Regards, [[User:Xenophrenic|Xenophrenic]] ([[User talk:Xenophrenic|talk]]) 18:50, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :{{tps}} Take it to [[WP:SPI]] :) --[[User:Kudpung|Kudpung]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 11:38, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Gavin Collins RfC == Just to let you know that Ncmvocalist has taken it upon himself to close it. I have suggested he read Gavin's talkpage and revert himself, as you are still talking to Gavin, and I don't think he realises this. --[[User:Elen of the Roads|Elen of the Roads]] ([[User talk:Elen of the Roads|talk]]) 11:36, 2 November 2010 (UTC) : Honestly, Gavin is just playing the martyr. &quot;I was not involved in the draft, therefore I'm not commenting, wah&quot;. As long as it's closed with an appropriate summary/resolution that's all that matters - Gavin will not be replying, even though it's in his best interest to have done so. It's been open too long; spank him and move on. ([[User talk:Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;talk→&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid black;&quot;&gt;'''&amp;nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&amp;nbsp;'''&lt;/span&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;←track&lt;/font&gt;]]) 11:45, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::I sympathise. [[User:Elen of the Roads|Elen of the Roads]] ([[User talk:Elen of the Roads|talk]]) 11:53, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::: I shall now stop banging my head against the brick wall ... ([[User talk:Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;talk→&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid black;&quot;&gt;'''&amp;nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&amp;nbsp;'''&lt;/span&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;←track&lt;/font&gt;]]) 11:57, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::Heh, I was thinking of making the suggestion that it be hand-balled to the Arbitration Committee (it's not got any cases anyway), but the Community would still be doomed to the agony (and so would arbs). A ban discussion may be a less painful option if it's not hijacked by the subject. &lt;s&gt;I'm seriously contemplating just making the proposal to the Community directly....&lt;/s&gt; It seems the parties are onto this so we'll just have to wait until they are ready. [[User:Ncmvocalist|Ncmvocalist]] ([[User talk:Ncmvocalist#top|talk]]) &lt;S&gt;14:03, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/s&gt; 14:10, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Userspace draft: PIUG - 2 == My most recent entry on having the [[User:Tomwolff52/Patent_Information_Users_Group|Patent Information Users Group (PIUG) topic]] approved and moved to production has fallen off your current page again to [[User_talk:Bwilkins/Archive_5#Userspace_draft:_PIUG|your archive5 page]]. I believe this entry should be ready to go based on my collaboration with TFOWR, who answered your [[User_talk:TFOWR/Archive_7#When_your_guests_have_eaten_all_of_your_food.2C_and_drank_all_of_your_beer|call for feedback]]. TFOWR and I worked on &quot;sourcing&quot; as discussed on [[User_talk:TFOWR/Archive_7#When_your_guests_have_eaten_all_of_your_food.2C_and_drank_all_of_your_beer|his talk archive page]] and [[User_talk:Tomwolff52|my User talk page]]. In particular, I found an independent reference that covers the PIUG in support of much in the PIUG wiki article: [http://pubs.acs.org/isubscribe/journals/cen/86/i23/html/8623gov2.html Patent Users Group Celebrates 20 Years]. ''Chemical and Engineering News'', 86(23), 33-35 (June 9, 2008). Is there anything else I can do besides be a &quot;squeaky wheel?&quot; [[User:Tomwolff52|Tomwolff52]] ([[User talk:Tomwolff52|talk]]) 21:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC) : I'm torn. I acknowledge TFOWR's help, but at the same time, another admin says it fails [[WP:CORP]] badly. I'm rather on the fence. I'm not sure where you studied statistics, but I don't like those numbers if they're truly representative. I wonder if it's not a bad time to pump it over to the article incubator, get some kind of [[WP:3O|3rd opinion]]. Let me contemplate after a coffee. ([[User talk:Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;talk→&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid black;&quot;&gt;'''&amp;nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&amp;nbsp;'''&lt;/span&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|&lt;font style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;←track&lt;/font&gt;]]) 09:24, 3 November 2010 (UTC) ::{{ec}} It's been a while since I looked at this, and my memory isn't what it could be, so I'll need to revisit it. I do remember a lack of secondary sources when I looked last, however. Like Bwilkins, I'm caffeine-deficient right now. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 09:33, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == vandalism == Bwilkins, ill admit that my edits could of been considered vandalism if the test edits I had made were incorrect. But the edits I made were in line with EVERY other page related to Northern Ireland. Thats called consistency. However the edits I made on NorthernCounties talk page were so far from vandalism, its unreal. If someone is going to throw around comments like vandalism, they had better be sure of their wording. NorthernCounties should be blocked, not just for describing my edits as 'vandalism' but prior to that had reinstated an inflamatory edit which I removed from my very own talk page.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 09:32, 3 November 2010 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hokey_pokey_(ice_cream)&diff=394549116</id> <title>Hokey pokey (ice cream)</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hokey_pokey_(ice_cream)&diff=394549116"/> <updated>2010-11-03T09:23:24Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Reverted good faith edits by 217.39.101.52 (talk); I'm fairly certain that's true of GB, but the second mdash is needed anyway. I'll try and dig out a cite for <hr /> <div>{{About|the ice cream flavour|other uses|Hokey pokey (disambiguation)}} [[File:Hokey_pokey_ice_cream.jpg|thumb|right|Hokey pokey ice cream]] '''Hokey pokey''' is a flavour of [[ice cream]], popular in New Zealand and consisting of plain vanilla ice cream with small, solid lumps of [[sponge toffee]] - known as &quot;hokey pokey&quot; in New Zealand.&lt;ref&gt;[http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&amp;cl=search&amp;d=EP19271219.2.166.2&amp;srpos=1&amp;e=01-01-1839-19-01-1933--10--1-byDA---0hokey+pokey+recipe-- &quot;Hokey Pokey&quot;], Recipe, Evening Post, 1927&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|author=Site by NV Interactive |url=http://www.chelsea.co.nz/recipes/210/hokey-pokey.aspx |title=Chelsea Sugar - Hokey Pokey |publisher=Chelsea.co.nz |date= |accessdate=2010-10-28}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.kiwiwise.co.nz/recipe/hokey-pokey |title=Hokey Pokey - New Zealand Kids Recipe at KiwiWise |publisher=Kiwiwise.co.nz |date= |accessdate=2010-10-28}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.kiwianatown.co.nz/kiwiana-recipes.html |title=Popular Kiwi recipes – pavlova, anzac biscuits, roast lamb, pikelets etc |publisher=Kiwianatown.co.nz |date= |accessdate=2010-10-28}}&lt;/ref&gt; The original recipe until around 1980 consisted of solid toffee, but in a marketing change Tip-Top decided to use small balls of sponge toffee instead. It is the most popular flavour after plain [[vanilla]] in [[New Zealand]],&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.nzicecream.org.nz/industry.htm |title=The New Zealand ice cream industry |publisher=Nzicecream.org.nz |date= |accessdate=2010-10-28}}&lt;/ref&gt; and a standard example of [[Kiwiana]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://christchurchcitylibraries.com/Reference/NewZealand/Kiwiana/ |title=Kiwiana |publisher=Christchurch City Libraries |date=2010-05-04 |accessdate=2010-10-28}}&lt;/ref&gt; It is also exported to Japan and the Pacific.&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&amp;objectid=583900 &quot;It's a love affair in a cone&quot;], NZ Herald&lt;/ref&gt; == Etymology == &quot;Hokey pokey&quot; was a slang term for ice cream in general in the 19th and early-to-mid 20th centuries in several areas &amp;mdash; including [[New York]]&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.littlebookroom.com/historicshopsNY.html http://www.littlebookroom.com/historicshopsNY.html] ''Littlebookroom.com''&lt;/ref&gt; and parts of [[Great Britain]] &amp;mdash; specifically for the ice cream sold by street vendors, or &quot;hokey-pokey&quot; men. The vendors, said to be mostly of Italian descent, supposedly used a sales pitch or song involving the phrase &quot;hokey pokey&quot;, for which several origins have been suggested, although no certain etymology is known. The name may come from the term &quot;hocus-pocus&quot;, or it may be a corruption of one of several Italian phrases. According to &quot;The Encyclopedia of Food&quot; (published 1923, New York) hokey pokey (in the U.S.) is &quot;a term applied to mixed colors and flavors of ice cream in cake form&quot;. The Encyclopedia says the term originated from the Italian phrase ''oh che poco'' - &quot;oh how little&quot;. Alternative possible derivations include other similar-sounding Italian phrases: for example ''ecco un poco'' - &quot;here is a (little) piece&quot;. == Related uses == * ''Hokey Pokey (The Ice Cream Man)'' (1975) is a song by [[Richard &amp; Linda Thompson]]. * In Ireland, the term 'Poke' is a common name for an ice cream * Hokey Pokey's Ice Creamery is an ice cream company in [[Corning (city), New York|Corning, New York]]. * Hokey Pokey is referenced to in the movie &quot;Tospy Turvy&quot; by W.S. Gilbert. ==References== {{Reflist}} * {{cite web|title=Hokey Pokey and All That: The history of ice cream|author=Edmund Forte|url=http://www.edmundforte.co.uk/141633.html}} &amp;mdash; Forte presents several alternative hypotheses. * [http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19991223 The Mavens' Word of the Day: hokey] * [http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/national/twu/2010/04/24/ice_cream_and_hokey_pokey Tracking down the origin of hokey pokey] [[Category:New Zealand cuisine]] [[Category:Ice cream]] {{dessert-stub}}</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Circumcision&diff=394548336</id> <title>Talk:Circumcision</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Circumcision&diff=394548336"/> <updated>2010-11-03T09:16:09Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: /* Can we maybe drop the double standard already? */ r. <hr /> <div>{{skip to talk}} {{talk header|noarchive=yes}} {{WikiProjectBannerShell|1= {{WP Sexuality|class=B|importance=Mid}} {{WPMED|class=B|importance=Mid}} {{WikiProject Body Modification|class=B|importance=Low}} }} {{censor}} {{round in circles|search=no}} {{controversial}} {{calm talk}} {{archivebox|index=/Archive index|auto=yes|search=yes|bot=MiszaBot|age=12| &lt;center&gt;'''[[/Archive guide|Archive guide]]'''&lt;/br&gt; '''[[/Sample PubMed|Sample PubMed]]'''&lt;/center&gt; }}{{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn|target=Talk:Circumcision/Archive index|mask=Talk:Circumcision/Archive &lt;#&gt;|leading_zeros=0|indexhere=yes}} {{User:MiszaBot/config |archiveheader = {{aan}} |maxarchivesize = 300K |counter = 67 |minthreadsleft = 3 |minthreadstoarchive = 1 |algo = old(30d) |archive = Talk:Circumcision/Archive %(counter)d }} __TOC__ == Edit request from Intaction, 5 October 2010 == {{tlx|edit semi-protected}} &lt;!-- Begin request --&gt; Looking to add www.intaction.org to the External links - Circumcision opposition [[User:Intaction|Intaction]] ([[User talk:Intaction|talk]]) 20:14, 5 October 2010 (UTC) \ &lt;!-- End request --&gt; [[User:Intaction|Intaction]] ([[User talk:Intaction|talk]]) 20:14, 5 October 2010 (UTC) :Blatant COI here.--[[User:SarekOfVulcan|SarekOfVulcan]] ([[User talk:SarekOfVulcan|talk]]) 21:18, 5 October 2010 (UTC) == Can we maybe drop the double standard already? == The Female genital cutting page starts like this: :&quot;Female genital cutting (FGC), also known as female genital mutilation (FGM), female circumcision, or female genital mutilation/cutting (FGM/C)&quot; There should be an almost exact duplicate opening on the main male circumcision page, at the moment only called &quot;Circumcision&quot;. Something like this maybe: :&quot;Male circumcision, also know as male genital mutilation (MGM), or male genital cutting (MGC).&quot; I am determined to resolve this double standard. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/24.56.10.150|24.56.10.150]] ([[User talk:24.56.10.150|talk]]) 11:04, 30 October 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :But circumcision isn't also known as &quot;male genital mutilation&quot; or &quot;male genital cutting&quot;. Circumcision and female genital mutilation are two very different things: the former is deprecated amongst health-care professionals, but is still carried out as fairly routine surgery where it's deemed necessary, and is not regarded as abuse. The latter is typically only encountered by health-care professionals when they try and alleviate the problems it's caused - it ''is'' regarded as abuse. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 11:08, 30 October 2010 (UTC) ::Indeed. You can't write an article about (male) circumcision by taking the FGC article and inverting the gender, because they're different subjects and we need to say different things about them. And one of the differences is terminology: &quot;female genital mutilation&quot; and &quot;female genital cutting&quot; are mainstream terminology among scholarly sources, whereas &quot;male genital mutilation&quot; and &quot;male genital cutting&quot; are fringe at best. If/when the terminology used by reliable sources changes, we'll report on that, but we can't do so until then. [[User:Jakew|Jakew]] ([[User talk:Jakew|talk]]) 12:14, 30 October 2010 (UTC) Circumcision is known as MGM in some circles, particularly in health and human rights activism. So MGM is an appropriate alternative name to add. Besides, all forms of circumcision are genital mutilation anyway. It's done without consent, on a child, and has limited to no medical benefits. That is most definitely mutilation. ([[User:LovelieHeart|LovelieHeart]] ([[User talk:LovelieHeart|talk]]) 20:24, 2 November 2010 (UTC)) :As stated above, &quot;male genital mutilation&quot; is fringe terminology at best when scholarly sources are considered: Google Scholar returns only [http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&amp;q=%22male+genital+mutilation%22&amp;btnG=Search&amp;as_sdt=2000&amp;as_ylo=&amp;as_vis=0 480 hits for &quot;male genital mutilation&quot;] (and ten of the twenty results on the first two pages are actually matches for &quot;fe-male genital mutilation&quot;). In comparison, there are [http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=circumcision&amp;btnG=Search&amp;hl=en&amp;as_sdt=2000 98,500] results for &quot;circumcision&quot;. In other words, for every source using the term &quot;male genital mutilation&quot; there are about 200 using the term &quot;circumcision&quot;. :This isn't the place to argue about whether circumcision is or isn't mutilation; please see [[WP:NOR]]. [[User:Jakew|Jakew]] ([[User talk:Jakew|talk]]) 20:37, 2 November 2010 (UTC) Male Genital Mutilation on Google turns up &quot;About 998,000 results,&quot; with the first links being relevant to male circumcision. ([[User:LovelieHeart|LovelieHeart]] ([[User talk:LovelieHeart|talk]]) 20:39, 2 November 2010 (UTC)) :Google searches usually include all web pages, whether or not they meet Wikipedia's requirements for [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. Google Scholar isn't perfect, but tends to exclude a lot of unsuitable material such as activist websites, forum posts, blogs, and so on. [[User:Jakew|Jakew]] ([[User talk:Jakew|talk]]) 20:43, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :I presume you searched for [http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&amp;client=ubuntu&amp;channel=cs&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;q=%22Male+Genital+Mutilation%22 male+genital+mutilation] (&quot;About 914,000 results&quot;) instead of [http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&amp;client=ubuntu&amp;channel=cs&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;q=%22Male+Genital+Mutilation%22 &quot;male genital mutilation&quot;] (&quot;About 61,300 results&quot;). Use quotes to search for the phrase, otherwise you'll just get anything that includes any of the words, in any order. For reference, [http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&amp;client=ubuntu&amp;channel=cs&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;q=%22circumcision%22+-female circumcision -female] returns &quot;About 2,420,000 results&quot;. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 20:44, 2 November 2010 (UTC) FGM is culture bias. In African and Asian publications, it's referred to as circumcision. In English sites, it's called FGM because our culture views it as unacceptable. So MGM is a viable alternative name because it IS used. It produces the same results as male circumcision on search engines. So it should be called MGM because it is mutilation. ([[User:LovelieHeart|LovelieHeart]] ([[User talk:LovelieHeart|talk]]) 20:52, 2 November 2010 (UTC)) ::{{quotation|''So it should be called MGM because it is mutilation.''|2=[[User:LovelieHeart]]|3=20:52, 2 November 2010 (UTC))}} ::While you are entitled to the above point-of-view, wikipedia policy does not allow wikipedia to be used as a platform to disseminate that, or any other POV. As Jake mentioned above, the majority of sources in the English language do not equate circumcision with genital mutilation, so neither do we. -- [[User:Avraham|Avi]] ([[User talk:Avraham|talk]]) 21:46, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Except that it clearly ''doesn't'' produce the same result on search engines: &quot;circumcision&quot; occurs ''40 times'' more frequently than &quot;male genital mutilation&quot;. And that's before we consider the weighting to give to raw Google hits (i.e. how many of those are reliable sources). We need to reflect what society thinks, not impose our own points of view on this. When society changes to refer to circumcision as &quot;male genital mutilation&quot; then this article should too. Until then it shouldn't. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 20:58, 2 November 2010 (UTC) MGM is a used name. Neurogenic shock is a less common word for a coma. It doesn't mean people don't use neurogenic shock though in medical fields. In medical circles, MGM is regularly used. It's not a point of view. ([[User:LovelieHeart|LovelieHeart]] ([[User talk:LovelieHeart|talk]]) 02:45, 3 November 2010 (UTC)) :''If'' it was regularly used I would agree that we should use it here. However, so far I've seen no evidence that it is regularly used. Can you show any reliable sources using the term &quot;male genital mutilation&quot; in preference to &quot;circumcision&quot;? [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 09:16, 3 November 2010 (UTC) == Addition to the penile cancer section == I'm reverting the following addition to the penile cancer section of the article: *Several studies&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |author=Bissada NK, Morcos RR, el-Senoussi M |title=Post-circumcision carcinoma of the penis. I. Clinical aspects |journal=J. Urol. |volume=135 |issue=2 |pages=283–5 |year=1986 |month=February |pmid=3944860 }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |author=Fetsch JF, Davis Jr CJ, Miettinen M, Sesterhenn IA |title=Leiomyosarcoma of the penis: a clinicopathologic study of 14 cases with review of the literature and discussion of the differential diagnosis |journal=Am. J. Surg. Pathol. |volume=28 |issue=1 |pages=115–25 |year=2004 |month=January |pmid=14707873 |url=http://meta.wkhealth.com/pt/pt-core/template-journal/lwwgateway/media/landingpage.htm?issn=0147-5185&amp;volume=28&amp;issue=1&amp;spage=115}}&lt;/ref&gt; have shown that penile cancer can occur in the scar tissue caused by circumcision. I see several problems with this addition: #Both of the studies cited are essentially case reports. Note that [[WP:MEDRS]] advises ''against'' the use of case reports. To quote: &quot;In general, editors should rely upon high-quality evidence, such as systematic reviews, rather than lower-quality evidence, such as case reports, or non-evidence, (e.g., conventional wisdom). [...] Case reports, whether in the popular press or a peer-reviewed medical journal, are a form of anecdote and generally fall below the minimum requirements of reliable medical sources.&quot; This is the most serious problem, but there are others: #While the studies do support the claim made, what is the significance? Yes, cancers can develop on the circumcision scar line; why is this noteworthy? Cancers can develop anywhere on the body, after all, so it would perhaps be unreasonable to expect the scar to be an exception. #While a minor point, the citations are presented poorly. They should really appear at the end of the sentence, consistent with the rest of the article. [[User:Jakew|Jakew]] ([[User talk:Jakew|talk]]) 10:44, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :If the sources are indeed not up to [[WP:MEDRS]] standards then they do not belong, '''however''' problems 2 and 3 are besides the point here. Regarding #2, I'm not sure I follow the reasoning but I'm assuming there is some confusion because the language used in the text. I doubt researchers published case studies about how cancer can develop in scar tissue unless there is a meaningful statement to made there. What you reduced it to is not meaningful, but is that what the sources say? I'm having a hard time believing that. #3 is indeed a very minor point, one that is solved by correcting the mistake and not removal. Both are irrelevant of course, because if [[WP:MEDRS]] is satisfied and the information is relevant (as I assume it would be) then the information stays, if not it should go. Cheers.[[User:Griswaldo|Griswaldo]] ([[User talk:Griswaldo|talk]]) 15:21, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::Regarding point 3, I agree, it would be easy enough to correct, and if it were the only problem that would have been the best approach. Regarding point 2, neither of the sources (PMID 3944860 and PMID 14707873) seem to have a point to make about circumcision and penile cancer; it's just that some/all of the cases happen to have involved the circumcision scar. Have a look at the abstracts, and I think you'll see what I mean. Indeed, in one of the studies (PMID 14707873), the authors actually list the location of the lesions: &quot;The tumors involved the prepuce (n = 1), prepuce and distal shaft (n = 1), circumcision scar line (n = 2), circumcision scar line and distal shaft (n = 1), shaft (n = 5), base of the penis (n = 3), and penis, not otherwise specified (n = 1).&quot; Sure, this supports the statement &quot;cancers can occur in the circumcision scar&quot;, but of course it also supports the statement &quot;cancers can occur on the prepuce&quot;. Neither statement seems particularly meaningful, and that's why I think it's important to ask what the significance is. If we can establish and agree why the point (or something similar) actually ''matters'' we might be able to find better sources that make the significance more obvious. [[User:Jakew|Jakew]] ([[User talk:Jakew|talk]]) 16:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::Well if there is indeed no meaningful connection presented in the papers then there is no reason to believe there are other sources.[[User:Griswaldo|Griswaldo]] ([[User talk:Griswaldo|talk]]) 16:53, 2 November 2010 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Circumcision&diff=394449544</id> <title>Talk:Circumcision</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Circumcision&diff=394449544"/> <updated>2010-11-02T20:58:27Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: /* Can we maybe drop the double standard already? */ r. <hr /> <div>{{skip to talk}} {{talk header|noarchive=yes}} {{WikiProjectBannerShell|1= {{WP Sexuality|class=B|importance=Mid}} {{WPMED|class=B|importance=Mid}} {{WikiProject Body Modification|class=B|importance=Low}} }} {{censor}} {{round in circles|search=no}} {{controversial}} {{calm talk}} {{archivebox|index=/Archive index|auto=yes|search=yes|bot=MiszaBot|age=12| &lt;center&gt;'''[[/Archive guide|Archive guide]]'''&lt;/br&gt; '''[[/Sample PubMed|Sample PubMed]]'''&lt;/center&gt; }}{{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn|target=Talk:Circumcision/Archive index|mask=Talk:Circumcision/Archive &lt;#&gt;|leading_zeros=0|indexhere=yes}} {{User:MiszaBot/config |archiveheader = {{aan}} |maxarchivesize = 300K |counter = 67 |minthreadsleft = 3 |minthreadstoarchive = 1 |algo = old(30d) |archive = Talk:Circumcision/Archive %(counter)d }} __TOC__ == Use of mouth? == I've heard a few times that the person performing a circumcision might use their mouth in the procedure, whether for sucking the blood, or using teeth to remove the foreskin. I'm surprised this article doesn't mention that, even if it is a misconception. --[[User:Bahati|Bahati]] ([[User talk:Bahati|talk]]) 11:55, 21 September 2010 (UTC) :Please see [[Brit milah#Metzitzah technique]], where there is (fairly) extensive discussion. It's relatively uncommon (or so I gather) among Jewish ritual circumcisions, which themselves represent only a small fraction of all circumcisions, so I'm not sure that discussing it in this article would be appropriate in terms of weighting. [[User:Jakew|Jakew]] ([[User talk:Jakew|talk]]) 12:00, 21 September 2010 (UTC) ::Yup, there it is, thanks! The article you pointed to does mention medical issues, and while I agree discussing it at lenght is not appropriate I believe there's room in the [[Circumcision#Medical_aspects|Medical aspects]] section of this article for a short sentence that would link to it. After all that was the information I came for and failed to find it. --[[User:Bahati|Bahati]] ([[User talk:Bahati|talk]]) 19:43, 21 September 2010 (UTC) :::By the same argument, though, a person might conceivably seek ''any'' piece of information, so should we include everything in this one article? I think the answer to that should be obvious... [[User:Jakew|Jakew]] ([[User talk:Jakew|talk]]) 20:00, 21 September 2010 (UTC) == Edit request from Intaction, 5 October 2010 == {{tlx|edit semi-protected}} &lt;!-- Begin request --&gt; Looking to add www.intaction.org to the External links - Circumcision opposition [[User:Intaction|Intaction]] ([[User talk:Intaction|talk]]) 20:14, 5 October 2010 (UTC) \ &lt;!-- End request --&gt; [[User:Intaction|Intaction]] ([[User talk:Intaction|talk]]) 20:14, 5 October 2010 (UTC) :Blatant COI here.--[[User:SarekOfVulcan|SarekOfVulcan]] ([[User talk:SarekOfVulcan|talk]]) 21:18, 5 October 2010 (UTC) == Can we maybe drop the double standard already? == The Female genital cutting page starts like this: :&quot;Female genital cutting (FGC), also known as female genital mutilation (FGM), female circumcision, or female genital mutilation/cutting (FGM/C)&quot; There should be an almost exact duplicate opening on the main male circumcision page, at the moment only called &quot;Circumcision&quot;. Something like this maybe: :&quot;Male circumcision, also know as male genital mutilation (MGM), or male genital cutting (MGC).&quot; I am determined to resolve this double standard. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/24.56.10.150|24.56.10.150]] ([[User talk:24.56.10.150|talk]]) 11:04, 30 October 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :But circumcision isn't also known as &quot;male genital mutilation&quot; or &quot;male genital cutting&quot;. Circumcision and female genital mutilation are two very different things: the former is deprecated amongst health-care professionals, but is still carried out as fairly routine surgery where it's deemed necessary, and is not regarded as abuse. The latter is typically only encountered by health-care professionals when they try and alleviate the problems it's caused - it ''is'' regarded as abuse. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 11:08, 30 October 2010 (UTC) ::Indeed. You can't write an article about (male) circumcision by taking the FGC article and inverting the gender, because they're different subjects and we need to say different things about them. And one of the differences is terminology: &quot;female genital mutilation&quot; and &quot;female genital cutting&quot; are mainstream terminology among scholarly sources, whereas &quot;male genital mutilation&quot; and &quot;male genital cutting&quot; are fringe at best. If/when the terminology used by reliable sources changes, we'll report on that, but we can't do so until then. [[User:Jakew|Jakew]] ([[User talk:Jakew|talk]]) 12:14, 30 October 2010 (UTC) Circumcision is known as MGM in some circles, particularly in health and human rights activism. So MGM is an appropriate alternative name to add. Besides, all forms of circumcision are genital mutilation anyway. It's done without consent, on a child, and has limited to no medical benefits. That is most definitely mutilation. ([[User:LovelieHeart|LovelieHeart]] ([[User talk:LovelieHeart|talk]]) 20:24, 2 November 2010 (UTC)) :As stated above, &quot;male genital mutilation&quot; is fringe terminology at best when scholarly sources are considered: Google Scholar returns only [http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&amp;q=%22male+genital+mutilation%22&amp;btnG=Search&amp;as_sdt=2000&amp;as_ylo=&amp;as_vis=0 480 hits for &quot;male genital mutilation&quot;] (and ten of the twenty results on the first two pages are actually matches for &quot;fe-male genital mutilation&quot;). In comparison, there are [http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=circumcision&amp;btnG=Search&amp;hl=en&amp;as_sdt=2000 98,500] results for &quot;circumcision&quot;. In other words, for every source using the term &quot;male genital mutilation&quot; there are about 200 using the term &quot;circumcision&quot;. :This isn't the place to argue about whether circumcision is or isn't mutilation; please see [[WP:NOR]]. [[User:Jakew|Jakew]] ([[User talk:Jakew|talk]]) 20:37, 2 November 2010 (UTC) Male Genital Mutilation on Google turns up &quot;About 998,000 results,&quot; with the first links being relevant to male circumcision. ([[User:LovelieHeart|LovelieHeart]] ([[User talk:LovelieHeart|talk]]) 20:39, 2 November 2010 (UTC)) :Google searches usually include all web pages, whether or not they meet Wikipedia's requirements for [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. Google Scholar isn't perfect, but tends to exclude a lot of unsuitable material such as activist websites, forum posts, blogs, and so on. [[User:Jakew|Jakew]] ([[User talk:Jakew|talk]]) 20:43, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :I presume you searched for [http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&amp;client=ubuntu&amp;channel=cs&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;q=%22Male+Genital+Mutilation%22 male+genital+mutilation] (&quot;About 914,000 results&quot;) instead of [http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&amp;client=ubuntu&amp;channel=cs&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;q=%22Male+Genital+Mutilation%22 &quot;male genital mutilation&quot;] (&quot;About 61,300 results&quot;). Use quotes to search for the phrase, otherwise you'll just get anything that includes any of the words, in any order. For reference, [http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&amp;client=ubuntu&amp;channel=cs&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;q=%22circumcision%22+-female circumcision -female] returns &quot;About 2,420,000 results&quot;. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 20:44, 2 November 2010 (UTC) FGM is culture bias. In African and Asian publications, it's referred to as circumcision. In English sites, it's called FGM because our culture views it as unacceptable. So MGM is a viable alternative name because it IS used. It produces the same results as male circumcision on search engines. So it should be called MGM because it is mutilation. ([[User:LovelieHeart|LovelieHeart]] ([[User talk:LovelieHeart|talk]]) 20:52, 2 November 2010 (UTC)) :Except that it clearly ''doesn't'' produce the same result on search engines: &quot;circumcision&quot; occurs ''40 times'' more frequently than &quot;male genital mutilation&quot;. And that's before we consider the weighting to give to raw Google hits (i.e. how many of those are reliable sources). We need to reflect what society thinks, not impose our own points of view on this. When society changes to refer to circumcision as &quot;male genital mutilation&quot; then this article should too. Until then it shouldn't. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 20:58, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ==Addition to the penile cancer section== I'm reverting the following addition to the penile cancer section of the article: *Several studies&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |author=Bissada NK, Morcos RR, el-Senoussi M |title=Post-circumcision carcinoma of the penis. I. Clinical aspects |journal=J. Urol. |volume=135 |issue=2 |pages=283–5 |year=1986 |month=February |pmid=3944860 }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |author=Fetsch JF, Davis Jr CJ, Miettinen M, Sesterhenn IA |title=Leiomyosarcoma of the penis: a clinicopathologic study of 14 cases with review of the literature and discussion of the differential diagnosis |journal=Am. J. Surg. Pathol. |volume=28 |issue=1 |pages=115–25 |year=2004 |month=January |pmid=14707873 |url=http://meta.wkhealth.com/pt/pt-core/template-journal/lwwgateway/media/landingpage.htm?issn=0147-5185&amp;volume=28&amp;issue=1&amp;spage=115}}&lt;/ref&gt; have shown that penile cancer can occur in the scar tissue caused by circumcision. I see several problems with this addition: #Both of the studies cited are essentially case reports. Note that [[WP:MEDRS]] advises ''against'' the use of case reports. To quote: &quot;In general, editors should rely upon high-quality evidence, such as systematic reviews, rather than lower-quality evidence, such as case reports, or non-evidence, (e.g., conventional wisdom). [...] Case reports, whether in the popular press or a peer-reviewed medical journal, are a form of anecdote and generally fall below the minimum requirements of reliable medical sources.&quot; This is the most serious problem, but there are others: #While the studies do support the claim made, what is the significance? Yes, cancers can develop on the circumcision scar line; why is this noteworthy? Cancers can develop anywhere on the body, after all, so it would perhaps be unreasonable to expect the scar to be an exception. #While a minor point, the citations are presented poorly. They should really appear at the end of the sentence, consistent with the rest of the article. [[User:Jakew|Jakew]] ([[User talk:Jakew|talk]]) 10:44, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :If the sources are indeed not up to [[WP:MEDRS]] standards then they do not belong, '''however''' problems 2 and 3 are besides the point here. Regarding #2, I'm not sure I follow the reasoning but I'm assuming there is some confusion because the language used in the text. I doubt researchers published case studies about how cancer can develop in scar tissue unless there is a meaningful statement to made there. What you reduced it to is not meaningful, but is that what the sources say? I'm having a hard time believing that. #3 is indeed a very minor point, one that is solved by correcting the mistake and not removal. Both are irrelevant of course, because if [[WP:MEDRS]] is satisfied and the information is relevant (as I assume it would be) then the information stays, if not it should go. Cheers.[[User:Griswaldo|Griswaldo]] ([[User talk:Griswaldo|talk]]) 15:21, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::Regarding point 3, I agree, it would be easy enough to correct, and if it were the only problem that would have been the best approach. Regarding point 2, neither of the sources (PMID 3944860 and PMID 14707873) seem to have a point to make about circumcision and penile cancer; it's just that some/all of the cases happen to have involved the circumcision scar. Have a look at the abstracts, and I think you'll see what I mean. Indeed, in one of the studies (PMID 14707873), the authors actually list the location of the lesions: &quot;The tumors involved the prepuce (n = 1), prepuce and distal shaft (n = 1), circumcision scar line (n = 2), circumcision scar line and distal shaft (n = 1), shaft (n = 5), base of the penis (n = 3), and penis, not otherwise specified (n = 1).&quot; Sure, this supports the statement &quot;cancers can occur in the circumcision scar&quot;, but of course it also supports the statement &quot;cancers can occur on the prepuce&quot;. Neither statement seems particularly meaningful, and that's why I think it's important to ask what the significance is. If we can establish and agree why the point (or something similar) actually ''matters'' we might be able to find better sources that make the significance more obvious. [[User:Jakew|Jakew]] ([[User talk:Jakew|talk]]) 16:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::Well if there is indeed no meaningful connection presented in the papers then there is no reason to believe there are other sources.[[User:Griswaldo|Griswaldo]] ([[User talk:Griswaldo|talk]]) 16:53, 2 November 2010 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Circumcision&diff=394447077</id> <title>Talk:Circumcision</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Circumcision&diff=394447077"/> <updated>2010-11-02T20:44:54Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: /* Can we maybe drop the double standard already? */ Try again with the exact phrase <hr /> <div>{{skip to talk}} {{talk header|noarchive=yes}} {{WikiProjectBannerShell|1= {{WP Sexuality|class=B|importance=Mid}} {{WPMED|class=B|importance=Mid}} {{WikiProject Body Modification|class=B|importance=Low}} }} {{censor}} {{round in circles|search=no}} {{controversial}} {{calm talk}} {{archivebox|index=/Archive index|auto=yes|search=yes|bot=MiszaBot|age=12| &lt;center&gt;'''[[/Archive guide|Archive guide]]'''&lt;/br&gt; '''[[/Sample PubMed|Sample PubMed]]'''&lt;/center&gt; }}{{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn|target=Talk:Circumcision/Archive index|mask=Talk:Circumcision/Archive &lt;#&gt;|leading_zeros=0|indexhere=yes}} {{User:MiszaBot/config |archiveheader = {{aan}} |maxarchivesize = 300K |counter = 67 |minthreadsleft = 3 |minthreadstoarchive = 1 |algo = old(30d) |archive = Talk:Circumcision/Archive %(counter)d }} __TOC__ == Use of mouth? == I've heard a few times that the person performing a circumcision might use their mouth in the procedure, whether for sucking the blood, or using teeth to remove the foreskin. I'm surprised this article doesn't mention that, even if it is a misconception. --[[User:Bahati|Bahati]] ([[User talk:Bahati|talk]]) 11:55, 21 September 2010 (UTC) :Please see [[Brit milah#Metzitzah technique]], where there is (fairly) extensive discussion. It's relatively uncommon (or so I gather) among Jewish ritual circumcisions, which themselves represent only a small fraction of all circumcisions, so I'm not sure that discussing it in this article would be appropriate in terms of weighting. [[User:Jakew|Jakew]] ([[User talk:Jakew|talk]]) 12:00, 21 September 2010 (UTC) ::Yup, there it is, thanks! The article you pointed to does mention medical issues, and while I agree discussing it at lenght is not appropriate I believe there's room in the [[Circumcision#Medical_aspects|Medical aspects]] section of this article for a short sentence that would link to it. After all that was the information I came for and failed to find it. --[[User:Bahati|Bahati]] ([[User talk:Bahati|talk]]) 19:43, 21 September 2010 (UTC) :::By the same argument, though, a person might conceivably seek ''any'' piece of information, so should we include everything in this one article? I think the answer to that should be obvious... [[User:Jakew|Jakew]] ([[User talk:Jakew|talk]]) 20:00, 21 September 2010 (UTC) == Edit request from Intaction, 5 October 2010 == {{tlx|edit semi-protected}} &lt;!-- Begin request --&gt; Looking to add www.intaction.org to the External links - Circumcision opposition [[User:Intaction|Intaction]] ([[User talk:Intaction|talk]]) 20:14, 5 October 2010 (UTC) \ &lt;!-- End request --&gt; [[User:Intaction|Intaction]] ([[User talk:Intaction|talk]]) 20:14, 5 October 2010 (UTC) :Blatant COI here.--[[User:SarekOfVulcan|SarekOfVulcan]] ([[User talk:SarekOfVulcan|talk]]) 21:18, 5 October 2010 (UTC) == Can we maybe drop the double standard already? == The Female genital cutting page starts like this: &quot;Female genital cutting (FGC), also known as female genital mutilation (FGM), female circumcision, or female genital mutilation/cutting (FGM/C)&quot; There should be an almost exact duplicate opening on the main male circumcision page, at the moment only called &quot;Circumcision&quot;. Something like this maybe: &quot;Male circumcision, also know as male genital mutilation (MGM), or male genital cutting (MGC).&quot; I am determined to resolve this double standard. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/24.56.10.150|24.56.10.150]] ([[User talk:24.56.10.150|talk]]) 11:04, 30 October 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :But circumcision isn't also known as &quot;male genital mutilation&quot; or &quot;male genital cutting&quot;. Circumcision and female genital mutilation are two very different things: the former is deprecated amongst health-care professionals, but is still carried out as fairly routine surgery where it's deemed necessary, and is not regarded as abuse. The latter is typically only encountered by health-care professionals when they try and alleviate the problems it's caused - it ''is'' regarded as abuse. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 11:08, 30 October 2010 (UTC) ::Indeed. You can't write an article about (male) circumcision by taking the FGC article and inverting the gender, because they're different subjects and we need to say different things about them. And one of the differences is terminology: &quot;female genital mutilation&quot; and &quot;female genital cutting&quot; are mainstream terminology among scholarly sources, whereas &quot;male genital mutilation&quot; and &quot;male genital cutting&quot; are fringe at best. If/when the terminology used by reliable sources changes, we'll report on that, but we can't do so until then. [[User:Jakew|Jakew]] ([[User talk:Jakew|talk]]) 12:14, 30 October 2010 (UTC) Circumcision is known as MGM in some circles, particularly in health and human rights activism. So MGM is an appropriate alternative name to add. Besides, all forms of circumcision are genital mutilation anyway. It's done without consent, on a child, and has limited to no medical benefits. That is most definitely mutilation. ([[User:LovelieHeart|LovelieHeart]] ([[User talk:LovelieHeart|talk]]) 20:24, 2 November 2010 (UTC)) :As stated above, &quot;male genital mutilation&quot; is fringe terminology at best when scholarly sources are considered: Google Scholar returns only [http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&amp;q=%22male+genital+mutilation%22&amp;btnG=Search&amp;as_sdt=2000&amp;as_ylo=&amp;as_vis=0 480 hits for &quot;male genital mutilation&quot;] (and ten of the twenty results on the first two pages are actually matches for &quot;fe-male genital mutilation&quot;). In comparison, there are [http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=circumcision&amp;btnG=Search&amp;hl=en&amp;as_sdt=2000 98,500] results for &quot;circumcision&quot;. In other words, for every source using the term &quot;male genital mutilation&quot; there are about 200 using the term &quot;circumcision&quot;. :This isn't the place to argue about whether circumcision is or isn't mutilation; please see [[WP:NOR]]. [[User:Jakew|Jakew]] ([[User talk:Jakew|talk]]) 20:37, 2 November 2010 (UTC) Male Genital Mutilation on Google turns up &quot;About 998,000 results,&quot; with the first links being relevant to male circumcision. ([[User:LovelieHeart|LovelieHeart]] ([[User talk:LovelieHeart|talk]]) 20:39, 2 November 2010 (UTC)) :Google searches usually include all web pages, whether or not they meet Wikipedia's requirements for [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. Google Scholar isn't perfect, but tends to exclude a lot of unsuitable material such as activist websites, forum posts, blogs, and so on. [[User:Jakew|Jakew]] ([[User talk:Jakew|talk]]) 20:43, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :I presume you searched for [http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&amp;client=ubuntu&amp;channel=cs&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;q=%22Male+Genital+Mutilation%22 male+genital+mutilation] (&quot;About 914,000 results&quot;) instead of [http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&amp;client=ubuntu&amp;channel=cs&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;q=%22Male+Genital+Mutilation%22 &quot;male genital mutilation&quot;] (&quot;About 61,300 results&quot;). Use quotes to search for the phrase, otherwise you'll just get anything that includes any of the words, in any order. For reference, [http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&amp;client=ubuntu&amp;channel=cs&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;q=%22circumcision%22+-female circumcision -female] returns &quot;About 2,420,000 results&quot;. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 20:44, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ==Addition to the penile cancer section== I'm reverting the following addition to the penile cancer section of the article: *Several studies&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |author=Bissada NK, Morcos RR, el-Senoussi M |title=Post-circumcision carcinoma of the penis. I. Clinical aspects |journal=J. Urol. |volume=135 |issue=2 |pages=283–5 |year=1986 |month=February |pmid=3944860 }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |author=Fetsch JF, Davis Jr CJ, Miettinen M, Sesterhenn IA |title=Leiomyosarcoma of the penis: a clinicopathologic study of 14 cases with review of the literature and discussion of the differential diagnosis |journal=Am. J. Surg. Pathol. |volume=28 |issue=1 |pages=115–25 |year=2004 |month=January |pmid=14707873 |url=http://meta.wkhealth.com/pt/pt-core/template-journal/lwwgateway/media/landingpage.htm?issn=0147-5185&amp;volume=28&amp;issue=1&amp;spage=115}}&lt;/ref&gt; have shown that penile cancer can occur in the scar tissue caused by circumcision. I see several problems with this addition: #Both of the studies cited are essentially case reports. Note that [[WP:MEDRS]] advises ''against'' the use of case reports. To quote: &quot;In general, editors should rely upon high-quality evidence, such as systematic reviews, rather than lower-quality evidence, such as case reports, or non-evidence, (e.g., conventional wisdom). [...] Case reports, whether in the popular press or a peer-reviewed medical journal, are a form of anecdote and generally fall below the minimum requirements of reliable medical sources.&quot; This is the most serious problem, but there are others: #While the studies do support the claim made, what is the significance? Yes, cancers can develop on the circumcision scar line; why is this noteworthy? Cancers can develop anywhere on the body, after all, so it would perhaps be unreasonable to expect the scar to be an exception. #While a minor point, the citations are presented poorly. They should really appear at the end of the sentence, consistent with the rest of the article. [[User:Jakew|Jakew]] ([[User talk:Jakew|talk]]) 10:44, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :If the sources are indeed not up to [[WP:MEDRS]] standards then they do not belong, '''however''' problems 2 and 3 are besides the point here. Regarding #2, I'm not sure I follow the reasoning but I'm assuming there is some confusion because the language used in the text. I doubt researchers published case studies about how cancer can develop in scar tissue unless there is a meaningful statement to made there. What you reduced it to is not meaningful, but is that what the sources say? I'm having a hard time believing that. #3 is indeed a very minor point, one that is solved by correcting the mistake and not removal. Both are irrelevant of course, because if [[WP:MEDRS]] is satisfied and the information is relevant (as I assume it would be) then the information stays, if not it should go. Cheers.[[User:Griswaldo|Griswaldo]] ([[User talk:Griswaldo|talk]]) 15:21, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::Regarding point 3, I agree, it would be easy enough to correct, and if it were the only problem that would have been the best approach. Regarding point 2, neither of the sources (PMID 3944860 and PMID 14707873) seem to have a point to make about circumcision and penile cancer; it's just that some/all of the cases happen to have involved the circumcision scar. Have a look at the abstracts, and I think you'll see what I mean. Indeed, in one of the studies (PMID 14707873), the authors actually list the location of the lesions: &quot;The tumors involved the prepuce (n = 1), prepuce and distal shaft (n = 1), circumcision scar line (n = 2), circumcision scar line and distal shaft (n = 1), shaft (n = 5), base of the penis (n = 3), and penis, not otherwise specified (n = 1).&quot; Sure, this supports the statement &quot;cancers can occur in the circumcision scar&quot;, but of course it also supports the statement &quot;cancers can occur on the prepuce&quot;. Neither statement seems particularly meaningful, and that's why I think it's important to ask what the significance is. If we can establish and agree why the point (or something similar) actually ''matters'' we might be able to find better sources that make the significance more obvious. [[User:Jakew|Jakew]] ([[User talk:Jakew|talk]]) 16:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::Well if there is indeed no meaningful connection presented in the papers then there is no reason to believe there are other sources.[[User:Griswaldo|Griswaldo]] ([[User talk:Griswaldo|talk]]) 16:53, 2 November 2010 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Giant%27s_Causeway&diff=394423475</id> <title>Talk:Giant's Causeway</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Giant%27s_Causeway&diff=394423475"/> <updated>2010-11-02T18:40:22Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: /* Northern Ireland is a country */ r. to Bjmullan - ta! <hr /> <div>{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1= {{WikiProject Northern Ireland|class=B|importance=Top}} {{WikiProject Volcanoes| class=B | importance=Mid}} {{WPCD}} {{WikiProject Ireland|nested= |class=start |importance=mid |attention= |peer-review= |old-peer-review= }} {{WikiProject UK geography|class=Start|importance=high}} }} ==To add== To add: More on geology/formation, legends Is it worth adding in more about the Causeway Coast itself - as the Giant's Causeway itself is part of this much larger UNESCO world heritage site the comprises a great deal of the Antrim Coastline. I notice the coast is mentioned in the fact box but not in the article itself. The Causeway Coast contains a number of related geological features such as the Carrick-A-Rede rope-bridge and many historical sites such as Dunluce Castle. Does an article about the Causeway Coast already exist? I cannot find one but maybe I am being blind. It could be argued that the Causeway Coast deserves an article in and of itself separate to the Giant's Causeway, but I would be concerned that such an article would belong in wikitravel as it is a Giant Tourist Trap. Any ideas? I'll put in a much needed geology section into this article in next few weeks, with a better description of the formation of columnar jointing and an overview of the geological setting in which it was formed etc. etc. etc. [[User:Fossiliferous|Fossiliferous]] 17:54, 28 September 2007 (UTC) ==Height== Notice: About the height of collumns, 12 metres is not 100 feet, 12 metres is about 40 feet, or, 100 feet is about 30 metres, so one of the values is correct, and the other one should be corrected. == Merge == I've added a proposal to merge [[Giant's Causeway Legend]] into this article. [[User:Peyna|Peyna]] 02:18, 3 December 2005 (UTC) :'''MERGE''' - It certainly should be. Neither this article nor that is developed enough to justify the two articles, nor is there the potential for the legend article to reach the sort of threshold required for separation. [[User:Bastin8|Bastin8]] 18:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC) :'''MERGE''' - Should be merged. Simply suggest new '''Legend''' sub-section in the [[Giant's Causeway]] article. [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] 12:59, 14 February 2006 (UTC) :'''Alternative''' There already is information in the Causeway article about the legend but only a mention in the [[Fionn mac Cumhail]] article, perheps it should be merged there? [[User:SeanMack|SeanMack]] 13:21, 14 February 2006 (UTC) ::Any final thoughts on this? If no final updates, will likely merge the content from the [[Giant's Causeway Legend]] article into the existing ''legend'' section in this article, add a summary reference to the [[Fionn mac Cumhail]] article, and redirect the ''Giant's Causeway Legend'' entry to the this (main) ''Giant's Causeway'' article... [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] 18:38, 3 March 2006 (UTC) :'''MERGE''' Too many themes beloging together are split up into several article--[[User:Hun2|Hun2]] 16:38, 12 March 2006 (UTC) :No brainer merge, really. [[Giant's Causeway Legend]] is not much more than a stub, and this article could do with expansion. Furthermore with this article expanded you could work the images into the text better and enlarge them. Right now you're ''wasting'' your images quite frankly. --[[User:Kingboyk|kingboyk]] 05:04, 13 March 2006 (UTC) '''Done.''' --[[User:Setanta747|Mal]] 23:45, 4 April 2006 (UTC) :'''MERGE''' This could cause less confusion. == Results of merger == I merged the Legend article into this one, though that has left some repeated information. I might get around to it, but I left a copyedit tag in case anyone else wants to try it in the meantime. I've already done a fair bit of work to it.. and please note that I have copied information from the website directly into the article as a comment, which might help other editors. I will delete this info once I feel all the info has been used - please leave it intact for now. --[[User:Setanta747|Mal]] 23:44, 4 April 2006 (UTC) :I have heard tell that the legend attached to the Giants Causeway is a relatively recent development (ie less than 400 years old) and that it was made up (or widely publicized) to attract the attention of the Romantics and the Victorian naturalists. Is there any reliable information concerning the development, age and origins of the myth? [[User:Amatire|Ammi]] 21:03, 5 November 2006 (UTC) ==Website info== {{user|Setanta747}} pasted the Giant's Causeway web site into the article as a comment below the main text. I have deleted it, as I deleted it when I copyedited the article a couple of days ago. I included everything from the web site in the article that I thought was appropriate for an encyclopedia. Text like &quot;For centuries countless visitors have marvelled at the majesty and mystery of the Giants Causeway&quot; is wonderful for a promotional web site but not appropriate for an encyclopedia. Neither is information on visitor center amenities or driving directions. The article links to the official web site so there is a clear way for people who are interested in visiting to find out more. Also there is the possibilty of copyright problems. In the US, information published by the government is in the public domain, but I don't know if that pertains to the UK, or if the National Trust is considered part of the government for purposes of copyright or considered a private agency. At this point I think that all the site details from the web site that belong in an encyclopedia are there. [[User:Thatcher131|Thatcher131]] 22:22, 16 April 2006 (UTC) : Fair enough Thatcher - I hadn't considered that you'd gone through it and copyedited appropriate info from it. If that is the case then its usefulness has now ended. As for copyright - the information wasn't published as such, which is specifically why I had added it as a comment. --[[User:Setanta747|Mal]] 08:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC) == Auto Peer Review == The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic [[User:AndyZ/peerreviewer.js|javascript program]], and might not be applicable for the article in question. *Per [[WP:CONTEXT]] and [[WP:MOSDATE]], months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide [[WP:CONTEXT|context]] for the article. *Per [[WP:MOSNUM#Units of measurement|WP:MOSNUM]], there should be a non-breaking space - &lt;code&gt;&amp;amp;nbsp;&lt;/code&gt; between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of ''18mm'', use ''18&amp;nbsp;mm'', which when you are editing the page, should look like: &lt;tt&gt;18&amp;amp;nbsp;mm&lt;/tt&gt;.&lt;ref name=&quot;nbsp&quot;&gt;See footnote&lt;/ref&gt; *Per [[WP:MOSNUM]], please spell out source units of measurements in text; for example, ''&quot;the Moon is 380,000 kilometres (240,000 mi) from Earth''.&lt;ref name=&quot;spellnum&quot;&gt;See footnote&lt;/ref&gt; *Please alphabetize the {{{1|[[WP:IL|interlanguage links]]}}}.&lt;ref name=&quot;alpha&quot;&gt;See footnote&lt;/ref&gt; *This article is a bit too short, and therefore may not be as comprehensive as [[WP:WIAFA]] critera 2(b) is looking for. Please see if anything can be expanded upon. {{{1|}}} *There are a few occurrences of [[weasel word]]s in this article- please observe [[WP:AWT]]. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view. {{#if:''allege''|For example, **''allege''}}{{#if:{{{2|}}}|**{{{2}}}}}{{#if:{{{3|}}}|**{{{3}}}}}{{#if:{{{4|}}}|**{{{4}}}}}{{#if:{{{5|}}}|**{{{5}}}}}{{#if:{{{6|}}}|**{{{6}}}}} {{#if:''allege''|**might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper [[WP:FOOTNOTE|citations]] (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please &lt;strike&gt;strike&lt;/strike&gt; this comment).}}&lt;ref name=&quot;awt&quot;&gt;See footnote&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;!--This javascript cannot determine if a citation is provided; if all weasel terms are covered by citations, please strike this--&gt; *Watch for [[User:Tony1/How_to_satisfy_Criterion_2a#Redundancy|redundancies]] that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's [[User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 2a: redundancy exercises|redundancy exercises]].) **Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “&lt;font color='red'&gt;&lt;s&gt;All&lt;/s&gt;&lt;/font&gt; pigs are pink, so we thought of &lt;font color='red'&gt;&lt;s&gt;a number of&lt;/s&gt;&lt;/font&gt; ways to turn them green.” *Please provide citations for all of the &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{fact}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;s. *Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that the it exemplifies some of [[WP:WIAFA|Wikipedia's best work]]. See also [[User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 2a]]. {{#if:{{{1|}}}|For example, **{{{1}}}}}{{#if:{{{2|}}}|**{{{2}}}}}{{#if:{{{3|}}}|**{{{3}}}}}{{#if:{{{4|}}}|**{{{4}}}}}{{#if:{{{5|}}}|**{{{5}}}}}{{#if:{{{6|}}}|**{{{6}}}}}{{#if:{{{1|}}}|**and perhaps other copyediting fixes for grammar/spelling are needed.}}&lt;ref name=&quot;copyedit&quot;&gt;See footnote&lt;/ref&gt; You may wish to browse through [[User:AndyZ/Suggestions]] for further ideas. Thanks, [[User:Setanta747|Mal]] 08:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC) Good Job on the page. == World Heritage Site == World Heritage site of Ireland?! Ireland is what the Republic calls itself (and is its official name I believe). The Giant's Causeway is in the United Kingdom not Ireland and i've changed the article to reflect this reality. You can't use the word Ireland to refer to something that exists within the United Kingdom because of the words Irish Nationalist connotations.[[User:YourPTR!|YourPTR!]] 04:34, 27 December 2006 (UTC) :Hi. In the context of the template, &quot;Ireland&quot; refers to the island (the geographical entity) rather than the &quot;Republic of Ireland&quot; (the political entity). You may note that there are two templates on the page; one &quot;WH Sites of Ireland&quot;, the other &quot;WH Sites in the UK&quot;. Both are likely valid in context. To engage in a &quot;what the word 'Ireland' means or is assumed to mean&quot; argument in the context of a natural phenomenon (which existed for 63 million years before the first human thought to give it a name or context) is probably not a good path to go down. (Someone[else] likely reverted your edit for this reason) [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] 16:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC) :Given that a causeway exists specifically to join two land masses across a stretch of water, couldn't we consider that one end is in Scotland ? We Scots don't market it as much as the Irish, but basalt columns crop up in many places on our west coast and Hebridean islands - Fingal's cave on Staffa, Kilt Rock on [[Skye]], Howmore to Rubha Ardvule on Uist. If I remember correctly, it is locally known as the Giant's Causeway even in Scotland. It may even have been the last link when the islands divided as the sea lowered in prehistoric times ? Maybe maritime charts would confirm or deny that ? Citation needed ! --[[Special:Contributions/195.137.93.171|195.137.93.171]] ([[User talk:195.137.93.171|talk]]) 02:10, 13 September 2008 (UTC) == Popular culture references / Trivia == The &quot;popular culture references&quot; section here includes some decidely [[WP:NN|NN]] inclusions. While there is [[Wikipedia:&quot;In popular culture&quot; articles|some discussion]] about the value of &quot;popculture&quot; references in general, several of the examples listed here are not notable and read like [[fancruft]] that is not relevant to the context of the article subject. (A lot of the examples represent &quot;throw away&quot; references in books, backdrops for music videos or interviews, or whatever). Unless - for example - the Causeway was a significant theme in a notable work, it probably isn't notable here. Otherwise it seems dubious under [[WP:NOT#INFO]]. I'm going to do some summarising. Beyond that, the section may be worthy or a more complete cull in the longer term. [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] 12:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC) :This section is getting worse. More fancruft, with severely dubious relevance to the topic, continues to be added. (And - in my view - will be so long as the section exists). Are there any comments on the value of this content? Does it give additional context to the topic for the reader? Personally I think that the fact that someone wrote a (B-Side) song in 2003 named after a 50 million year old formation is irrelevant to the formation itself. Would like to confirm some consensus however before a cull here.... [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] 21:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC) ::The WWE and Scooter references are entirely irrelevant. The Cremaster Cycle article doesn't even mention the Causeway, so it can go as well. The Led Zep and Stone Roses album covers probably have the best case for inclusion, they are certainly of interest - the Stone Roses' debut is arguably my favourite all-time album, but I had no idea the Causeway was the background of the album cover until I read this. They are both notable works, but as you said above they are not sufficiently significant themes in them. So cull the lot I say. [[User:Stubacca|&lt;font color = &quot;green&quot;&gt;'''Stu'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Stubacca|&lt;font color = &quot;green&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''’Bout ye!''&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] 09:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC) ====Trivia revisited==== Unless there are other opinions, I'm going to summarise the Trivia section. Again. Since the last review, it has reverted to its long and unwieldy state. (With recently added references to non-notable book covers, throw away refs in Hellboy, the Simpsons, etc). This detail is - in my view - very very weak, of limited encyclopedic value, and represents the type of miscellaneous/random trivia that the [[Wikipedia:Trivia sections|relevant guidelines]] suggest we avoid. As noted before, this formation has been around for millions of years. The fact that it is mentioned fleetingly in a recent feature film, or was on screen for 5 seconds in a Simpsons episode isn't really relevant, and is a &quot;symptom&quot; of the subjects notability, rather than contributing to it. Compare to a &quot;list of films and books the Great Pyramid of Giza is mentioned in&quot; at the foot of that article. It would be ridiculously long and pointless. I may be misreading the guidelines here, so will await any other comments before engaging in some more summarisation (again). [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] ([[User talk:Guliolopez|talk]]) 15:44, 30 March 2009 (UTC) ==History/Geology== I have separated these. However I have one ref. which refers to &quot;slow cooling of the great pool of molten rock,...&quot; I'm nor sure which is correct. Ref. Wilson, H.E.1972. ''Regional Geology of Northern Irelad'' Ministry of Commerce Geologiucal Servay of Northern Ireland, Belfast, Her Majesty's Stationary Office.[[User:Osborne|Osborne]] 08:50, 11 September 2007 (UTC) ==Intrusive or Extrusive== The article seems to say that the origin of the rock is as an intrusive lava.... If it is an intrusive rock, it should be referred to as magma. If extrusive as lava. It is currently geologically incorrect. --[[Special:Contributions/86.145.68.88|86.145.68.88]] ([[User talk:86.145.68.88|talk]]) 19:25, 10 April 2008 (UTC) == Location == where in NI is this? &lt;small&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/203.217.59.87|203.217.59.87]] ([[User talk:203.217.59.87|talk]]) 10:41, 14 June 2008 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :It's on the North East coast in County Antrim. Is mentioned a few times in the article. There is also a coordinates link up the top right. [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] ([[User talk:Guliolopez|talk]]) 17:12, 14 June 2008 (UTC) == Hexagonal prisms in nature == The article states, &quot;While contraction in the vertical direction reduced the flow thickness (without fracturing), horizontal contraction could only be accommodated by cracking throughout the flow.&quot; This empoverished explanation is frequently offered wherever polygonal cracks are described, such as in [http://giantcrystals.strahlen.org/europe/basalt.htm Formation of basalt columns], from the article's External Links section. The only parsimonious, satisfying scientific explanation of the formation of right hexagonal prisms in nature is [[Bénard cells]] (see, for example, [http://www.physics.gatech.edu/schatz/control/benard.html Hexagons: Wave Numbers &amp; Defects]). In the case of the Giant's Causeway, it is easy to imagine convection occurring in liquid basalt lava, immediately prior to cooling. The viscosity of the basalt naturally drags adjacent material upward, as the hotter material rises due to buoyancy. This tends to form adjacent columns of alternately rising and falling material. The vertical motion of convection is, of course, the explanation for why fairly accurate right prisms are usually formed, rather than oblique prisms, pyramids, twisted columns, spirals, or other geometries that are sometimes seen in the laboratory. Imagine a packing of cylindrical convection columns. They would be pushed together (the formation of cylinders would not occur because stable systems alway contract to minimal-energy configurations), deforming the potential right cylinders touching each other at their six tangent points into right hexagonal prisms. Occasionally, defects in the chaotic column selection process would result in some prisms of polygons with other numbers of sides, such as 4 or 5. This is just what we see in mud flats, the surface of the sun, and many other natural phenomena involving extended, approximately planar convection. This is my opinion, not published research. Therefore, it cannot be included in the article. Could someone who is familiar with the literature please consider providing citations and integrating the above into the article? Thanks, [[User:David spector|David]] ([[User talk:David spector|talk]]) 19:33, 29 August 2008 (UTC) :I second that ! Was surprised not to see links both ways. :[http://www.google.com/search?q=%22B%C3%A9nard+cells%22+%22giant%27s+causeway%22+OR+%22basalt+columns%22 Google] only finds 6 items linking &quot;Bénard cells&quot; to &quot;giant's causeway&quot; or &quot;basalt columns&quot;. Maybe we're wrong ? Or are Geologists and Physicists just not talking to each other ? :I [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Rocks_and_minerals#Help_needed_please|suggested]] the shapes might differentiate the mechanism of formation: ::Main difference is mud cracking is a surface phenomenon, but Benard cells go all the way through, like lettering in seaside [[Rock (confectionery)|rock]] ! The cracks have zero width, and tend to curve into part-circles. Mud tends to crack into straight-edged polygons, instead. Tension cracks will fork, and produce different-sized flakes, whereas convection cell boundaries will not have ends, and will form cells of similar sizes. Two other combinations of cell are notable: bisected circles (screw-head) and near-perfect circles surrounded by six or seven others with radial boundaries (flower-petals). Both fit convection better than tension cracking. :Interesting you link Benard Cells to mud cracking ! I had considered that to be an entirely different case. Maybe both mechanisms work together ? Paint cracking on a vertical surface can show a similar hexagonal pattern, but is homogeneous - or do you get horizontal-axis cells due to solvent evaporation instead of convection ? :You can sometimes see them in pans of water or chip-frying oil during heating ... :--[[Special:Contributions/195.137.93.171|195.137.93.171]] ([[User talk:195.137.93.171|talk]]) 23:25, 12 September 2008 (UTC) :--thanks--: &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/193.229.146.4|193.229.146.4]] ([[User talk:193.229.146.4|talk]]) 12:03, 18 November 2008 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; == Coordinates == Please note that the coordinates in this article need fixing as: 55deg 14' 28'' N 6 deg 30' 43'' W This being the centre of the Grand Causeway Current co-ordinates refer to Port na Pleaskin some 2km away. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/86.148.188.137|86.148.188.137]] ([[User talk:86.148.188.137|talk]]) 01:15, 21 December 2008 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt;&lt;!-- signature added by User:Fattonyni --&gt; * I've altered the coordinates accordingly -- not to those given above, but to [http://stable.toolserver.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=Giant%27s_Causeway&amp;params=55_14_27_N_6_30_42_W_type:landmark_region:GB 55°14′27″N 6°30′42″W] which appears to more accurately point to the main causeway (check link). [[User:Fattonyni|Fattonyni]] ([[User talk:Fattonyni|talk]]) 16:39, 30 January 2009 (UTC) == Geobox/type/nature == I've swapped the UNESCO World Heritage infobox for a {{[[Template:Geobox/type/nature|Geobox]]}} which incorporates the UNESCO information as a section. I've kept the original infobox (commented out) though, in case anyone takes issue with this edit. Any thoughts? [[User:Fattonyni|Fattonyni]] ([[User talk:Fattonyni|talk]]) 16:39, 30 January 2009 (UTC) == Similar structures: bulleted or prose? == After I reverted the most recent change of this I realised there had already been a number of swaps of format prior to my edit -- so I thought I would ask for a consensus: Should the list of similar structures be in bulleted or prose form? State your view below. * '''Bulleted''' - it is far more legible and well-seated in Wikipedia's standard formatting. I also find it neater. [[User:Fattonyni|Fattonyni]] ([[User talk:Fattonyni|talk]]) 01:37, 12 March 2009 (UTC) ::Revise to '''Prose, summarise, move down''' as per Guliolopez's idea (below) – This sounds like a good solution -- I agree that not all of the instances need to be mentioned in the list; perhaps just 3-4 of the most notable ones. This would make the prose much more legible and tidy, and avoid it having too much impact on the overall article. [[User:Fattonyni|Fattonyni]] ([[User talk:Fattonyni|talk]]) 10:45, 13 March 2009 (UTC) * '''Prose, summarise, move down''' - This article is about the Giant's Causeway. Not about sequential fragmentation or quasihexagona columnar structures in general. The advantage of the previous prose was that it was &quot;low impact&quot; to the main intent. This new and extensive list is too long and impactful given the intent of the article. It should be summarised and moved down to sit AFTER everything that deals with the actual subject. I believe it should be prose and deal with a few similar key structures. Not every instance. If it remains a bulleted list, it should be treated as almost like a &quot;see also&quot; section. Which is effectively what it is. [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] ([[User talk:Guliolopez|talk]]) 10:37, 12 March 2009 (UTC) *'''Prose''' - I'm not saying the prose version is absolutely fantastic at the moment, but bullet points look amateurish. The prose does need to be altered but it must stay as prose and not as bullet points. [[User:Speedboy Salesman|Speedboy Salesman]] ([[User talk:Speedboy Salesman|talk]]) 18:36, 12 March 2009 (UTC) ::OK. It seems that there was apparent consensus in the above, so I've gone ahead and restored the prose formatting. I also moved it down below the &quot;features&quot; section. I also went ahead and summarised the list - removing those which didn't have a mention in an article of their own, or significant coverage in a related article. (I did this on the basis that this article ISN'T a &quot;list of basalt column structures around the world&quot;. And shouldn't become one.) [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] ([[User talk:Guliolopez|talk]]) 14:56, 30 March 2009 (UTC) =='Worth seeing but not worth going to see'== Was it Samuel Johnson who said this about Giant's Causeway. Does that merit a mention on the page somewhere? [[User:Martyn Smith|Martyn Smith]] ([[User talk:Martyn Smith|talk]]) 15:23, 9 December 2009 (UTC) == Northern Ireland is a country == There seems to be a propensity by some to revert constructive edits relating to the Giants Causeway's location within Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is a country just like Scotland, England, Wales and off-course the Republic of Ireland. If you don't believe me check out Wikipedia at [[Northern Ireland]] and read it for yourself. I'll give you a clue...it's in the first sentence of the first paragraph! States something about it being a country!! --[[Special:Contributions/84.93.157.59|84.93.157.59]] ([[User talk:84.93.157.59|talk]]) 14:12, 22 September 2010 (UTC) :Absolutely. In just about every other article NI is described as the country - which it quite clearly is. NI is not a region. The correct usage here should be Country = Northern Ireland, State = United Kingdom. I'll see if I can change it. I cannot imagine why anyone would support the current version. [[User:LevenBoy|LevenBoy]] ([[User talk:LevenBoy|talk]]) 12:22, 24 September 2010 (UTC) Great work LevenBoy. The edit was a complete joke. I think there is a clique or one person with multiple accounts who is intent on erasing everything that is Northern Ireland.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 14:30, 24 September 2010 (UTC) :It is not a country according to UNESCO, and seeing as you are using a World Heritage infobox it follows their standard. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 15:14, 24 September 2010 (UTC) ::You are talking total bullshit and I've reverted your vandalism - and that is what it is. If you revert again I'll take it to AN/I. [[User:LevenBoy|LevenBoy]] ([[User talk:LevenBoy|talk]]) 15:34, 24 September 2010 (UTC) Where on the website does it say that Northern Ireland is not a country? This is not the place for this discussion. I suggest you raise the issue at the Northern Ireland Wikipedia page. Good luck :) .[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 15:21, 24 September 2010 (UTC) # &quot;One specific problem - in both general and particular senses - is to know what to call Northern Ireland itself: in the general sense, it is not a country, or a province, or a state - although some refer to it contemptuously as a statelet: the least controversial word appears to be jurisdiction, but this might change.&quot; - S. Dunn and H. Dawson, 2000, An Alphabetical Listing of Word, Name and Place in Northern Ireland and the Living Language of Conflict, Edwin Mellen Press: Lampeter # &quot;Next - what noun is appropriate to Northern Ireland? 'Province' won't do since one-third of the province is on the wrong side of the border. 'State' implies more self-determination than Northern Ireland has ever had and 'country' or 'nation' are blatantly absurd. 'Colony' has overtones that would be resented by both communities and 'statelet' sounds too patronizing, though outsiders might consider it more precise than anything else; so one is left with the unsatisfactory word 'region'.&quot; - D. Murphy, 1979, A Place Apart, Penguin Books: London # &quot;Although a seat of government, strictly speaking Belfast is not a 'capital' since Northern Ireland is not a 'country', at least not in the same sense that England, Scotland and Wales are 'countries'.&quot; - J Morrill, 2004, The promotion of knowledge: lectures to mark the Centenary of the British Academy 1992-2002, Oxford University Press: Oxford # &quot;Not a country in itself, Northern Ireland consists of six of the thirty-two original counties of Ireland, all part of the section of that island historically known as Ulster.&quot; - J V Til, 2008, Breaching Derry's walls: the quest for a lasting peace in Northern Ireland, University Press of America # &quot;Northern Ireland is not a country in itself, but a small fragment torn from the living body of Ireland where now the last act of its long struggle for independence is being played out.&quot; - W V Shannon, Northern Ireland and America's Responsibility in K M. Cahill (ed), 1984, The American Irish revival: a decade of the Recorder, 1974-1983, Associated Faculty Press # &quot;Northern Ireland (though of course not a country) was the only other place where terrorism can be said to have achieved a comparable social impact.&quot; - M Crenshaw, 1985, An Organizational Approach to the Analysis of Political Terrorism in Orbis, 29 (3) # &quot;The study compare attitudes in Belgium, Denmark, Spain, France, the UK, Holland, Ireland, Italy and West Germany. It also includes Northern Ireland, which of course is not a country.&quot; - P Kurzer, 2001, Markets and moral regulation: cultural change in the European Union, Cambridge University Press: Cambridge # &quot;As I see it, I'm an Irish Unionist. I'm Irish, that's my race if you like. My identify is British, because that it the way I have been brought up, and I identify with Britain and there are historical bonds, psychological bonds, emotional bonds, all the rest of it you know. ... Bit to talk of independence in Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland is not a country, Northern Ireland is a province of Ireland and it is a province in the UK and I think that the notion of a national identity or group identity or racial identity or cultural identity here is a nonsense.&quot; - Michael McGimpsey quoted in F. Cochrane, 2001, Unionist politics and the politics of Unionism since the Anglo-Irish Agreement, Cork University Press: Cork # &quot;Moreover, Northern Ireland is a province, not a country. Even before direct rule, many of the decisions affecting the economy, labour law, and wage bargaining were in reality taken in London, thereby diminishing the importance of local control.&quot; A Aughey, 1996, Duncan Morrow, Northern Ireland Politics, Longmon: London :There you go, ample evidence that claiming Northern Ireland is a country is not neutral. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 16:00, 24 September 2010 (UTC) Why do you not take this argument to the Northern Ireland Wikipedia page? Northern Ireland is a country within a soverign state.FACT![[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 16:09, 24 September 2010 (UTC) :Are you really going to dispute an article form Cambridge University Press? Bravo O Fenian for finding these wide variety of credible references. --[[User:NorthernCounties|NorthernCounties]] ([[User talk:NorthernCounties|talk]]) 16:19, 24 September 2010 (UTC) ::Indeed. There is no need for me to go to any other article, since first of all Wikipedia cannot source itself, and secondly Northern Ireland is not described there using the bare descriptor &quot;country&quot;, but as a &quot;county of the United Kingdom&quot;, which is a different thing entirely. I also refer you back to the UNESCO list which lists sites by country, and Northern Ireland does not appear on the list only the United Kingdom. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 16:22, 24 September 2010 (UTC) ::I would also add that this is not a change I have implemented, it has said United Kingdom for ages and ages, before [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Giant%27s_Causeway&amp;action=historysubmit&amp;diff=384756069&amp;oldid=384628954 this edit], which the IP then tried making again, then the baton was taken up by The Maiden City and other editors after him. Having the country as United Kingdom (which is a country) is the stable version, unlike having the country as Northern Ireland (which is not a country). [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 16:44, 24 September 2010 (UTC) Agree with O Fenian as stated above describing Northern Ireland as a country is not neutral, and also stated above UNESCO groups by country and that is United Kingdom not NI. [[User:Mo ainm|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#B22222;font-family:serif;text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;&quot;&gt;'''''Mo ainm'''''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Mo ainm|&lt;span style=&quot;color:black;font-family:cursive;font-size:80%&quot;&gt;~Talk&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:12, 24 September 2010 (UTC) * Wait, what? Are we just disregarding every other article on Wikipedia that comments on this? Northern Ireland, by every other article related to the topic that i've seen on Wikipedia, is labeled as a country. Like [[Countries of the United Kingdom|this]], for example. &lt;font color=&quot;silver&quot;&gt;[[User:Silver seren|Silver]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk:Silver seren|seren]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:08, 25 September 2010 (UTC) : It is neutral to describe Northern Ireland as a country, that is what is done on many articles and it is reliably sourced including by Her Majesty's Government. What is put in the infobox depends on the limitations of the infobox. It should say UK + NI, if the only way to do that is with Country: UK, Reigion: NI then i support the status quo. If it is possible to change the field titles to say something like Sovereign State: United Kingdom. Country: Northern Ireland. Then i will support that. Like the infobox used at [[Manchester]]. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 17:20, 25 September 2010 (UTC) ::I second BW's proposal. The sources that have been brought up here (while good job in finding them) appear to be in a minority as [[Talk:United Kingdom|this]] does mention in FAQ's what counts as a country within the UK. [[User:The C of E|The C of E. God Save The Queen!]] ([[User talk:The C of E|talk]]) 09:36, 27 September 2010 (UTC) :::I also agree with BW proposal. Northern Ireland will soon be competing in the [[Commonwealth Games]] [http://www.thecgf.com/countries/country_index.asp] as a country. Good on them. --[[Special:Contributions/87.113.88.49|87.113.88.49]] ([[User talk:87.113.88.49|talk]]) 10:44, 27 September 2010 (UTC) ::::They say the Isle of Man is a country too... [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 11:09, 27 September 2010 (UTC) I would refer editors to [[Talk:Northern_Ireland/Archive_8#&quot;Country&quot; (no doubt discussed before)]] to see how [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Northern_Ireland&amp;oldid=321136407 this] became the current wording of the Northern Ireland article. The first post is worth reading especially, it says &quot;It is disenginious, misleading, non-neutral (and undue weight) to so baldly state that Northern Ireland is a &quot;country&quot; when the same thing can be expressed by simply stating that it is a &quot;part of the United Kingdom&quot;. (Reminder: the current version says that Northern Ireland is both a &quot;country&quot; and a &quot;part of the United Kingdom&quot; as if they are two distinct facts.) Northern Ireland is a part of the United Kingdom, that is simple and unambigious. But to say that Northern Ireland is a &quot;country&quot; (without at the least a qualification of what is meant) is false on very many levels and deeply misleading&quot;. Academic sources have been provided that reject the very idea of Northern Ireland being a country, and it would be a major breach of neutral point-of-view to ignore them and simply label Northern Ireland a &quot;country&quot; in this article. I do not see why people are so intent on claiming the Giant's Causeway is not in a country called the United Kingdom, which is not disputed as being so. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 11:09, 27 September 2010 (UTC) : Well i partly agree with you. I would oppose simply listing Northern Ireland as country without any mention of the United Kingdom. However if it was possible to say Sovereign state: United Kingdom. Constituent Country: Northern Ireland, we should do that as a compromise. Reliable sources say Northern Ireland is a country. Id rather the UK was just considered a country, but they are considered 4 countries of the United Kingdom. It is not unacceptable to say Northern Ireland is a country. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 11:14, 27 September 2010 (UTC) : We could always just say Country: Northern Ireland (United Kingdom). As another compromise. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 11:15, 27 September 2010 (UTC) : {{Geobox|Protected Area &lt;!-- *** Heading *** --&gt; | name = Giant's Causeway and Causeway Coast | native_name = | other_name = | category = &lt;!-- *** Image *** --&gt; | image = Causeway-code poet-4.jpg | image_caption = | image_size = 300px &lt;!-- *** Country *** --&gt; | country = [[Northern Ireland]] (United Kingdom) | country_flag = | state = | region = | district = [[County Antrim]] | municipality = [[Moyle District Council|Moyle]]}} : So it would look like this. That way we do not call Northern Ireland a region which i think is what people are concerned about. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 11:18, 27 September 2010 (UTC) The [[Isle of Man]] is a self-governing [[Crown Dependencies|British Crown Dependency]], it is not a country. Northern Ireland is however a country within the United Kingdom. I would like to see them call Scotland a Region? I agree with you BW, time to change Region to Country as it should be.--[[Special:Contributions/87.113.88.49|87.113.88.49]] ([[User talk:87.113.88.49|talk]]) 13:20, 27 September 2010 (UTC) I would like to add my 2 cents. I think it should be 'Country-Northern Ireland, Sovereign State-United Kingdom'. Aside from that I think this should be raised at the discussion forum of the Northern Ireland WP rather than go through every town and place in Northern Ireland with a WP and has Northern Ireland listed as a country.[[User:Pilgrimsquest|Pilgrimsquest]] ([[User talk:Pilgrimsquest|talk]]) 14:58, 27 September 2010 (UTC) : I dont think the template allows Sovereign state to be put. How do you feel about the example &gt;&gt;&gt; [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 15:01, 27 September 2010 (UTC) : No matter, i suspect you wont be able to respond soon. lol [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 15:09, 27 September 2010 (UTC) ::While it excludes the significant, if not majority, viewpoint that Northern Ireland is not a country, there is little prospect of consensus for change. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 15:10, 27 September 2010 (UTC) ::: Northern Ireland is accepted as a country on wikipedia. Reliable sources at [[Countries of the United Kingdom]] show this. What is inaccurate about changing it to say Northern Ireland (United Kingdom) in the country field. That addresses the concern about stating region - Northern Ireland. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 15:51, 27 September 2010 (UTC) ::::No, it is not. I suggest looking at the links I provided and the sources. You are not presenting a single point-of-view as fact in the face of evidence that disputes that point-of-view. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 18:22, 27 September 2010 (UTC) ::::: What is the problem with the proposal to put Northern Ireland (United Kingdom)? in the country field. That addresses concerns about NI being described as a region that some have. Northern Ireland is described as a country of the UK on wikipedia, this is reliably sourced. So there is nothing incorrect about saying it. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 18:45, 27 September 2010 (UTC) I think it is best that if O Fenian and friends are so easily offended, I think we should just remove Geography altogether and just say 'Somewhere in the Northern Hemisphere'. Northern Ireland is a country and to ignore the facts and the majority view on Wikipedia purely to satisfy a few does not make sense.[[User:Pilgrimsquest|Pilgrimsquest]] ([[User talk:Pilgrimsquest|talk]]) 15:18, 27 September 2010 (UTC) :What friends of O Fenian have you encountered? Should we use check user on your account? Or would it also be inaccurate? --[[User:NorthernCounties|NorthernCounties]] ([[User talk:NorthernCounties|talk]]) 15:24, 27 September 2010 (UTC) ::[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ASockpuppet_investigations%2FThe_Maiden_City&amp;action=historysubmit&amp;diff=387331474&amp;oldid=387331367 Already done]. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 15:26, 27 September 2010 (UTC) :::I had assumed it was to good to be true when Wikipedia was quiet this weekend, I shall wait in the shadows until further socks undoubtly raise their heads. Well done getting that one sorted quickly --[[User:NorthernCounties|NorthernCounties]] ([[User talk:NorthernCounties|talk]]) 15:32, 27 September 2010 (UTC) So what are we going to do about this? [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 11:10, 28 September 2010 (UTC) :I think following the template above would be the best decision, since it lists Northern Ireland properly as a country, but then clarifies that it is still a part of the United Kingdom. &lt;font color=&quot;silver&quot;&gt;[[User:Silver seren|Silver]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk:Silver seren|seren]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:01, 28 September 2010 (UTC) ::As O Fenian and NorthernCounties have pointed out, calling Northern Ireland a ''country'' is inaccurate and controversial. However, the term ''country'' itself is ambiguous. The simple solution would be to use the ''location'' field and have ::&lt;code&gt;State: United Kingdom&lt;/code&gt; ::&lt;code&gt;Location: County Antrim, Northern Ireland&lt;/code&gt; ::I think this argument has shown that the [[Template:Geobox/type/nature|template itself]] needs to be changed; since ''country'' is ambiguous and not every state is divided into ''regions, districts'' or ''municipalities''. Thoughts? [[User:Asarlaí|~Asarlaí]] 15:02, 28 September 2010 (UTC) :::If we could just add in a Sovereign State section higher than Country, that would work fine. But Country is still the correct term, regardless of controversy, otherwise we wouldn't have [[Countries of the United Kingdom|this]] article. &lt;font color=&quot;silver&quot;&gt;[[User:Silver seren|Silver]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk:Silver seren|seren]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:18, 28 September 2010 (UTC) ::::In aid to arrive at a conclusion, I would support changing the [[Template:Geobox/type/nature|template]]. Or even something along the lines of what is present [[Birmingham|here]]. Where it includes '''Sovereign State,''' '''Constituent Country,''' '''County'''. --[[User:NorthernCounties|NorthernCounties]] ([[User talk:NorthernCounties|talk]]) 15:20, 28 September 2010 (UTC) :::::Yeah, we should steal the format from that template. &lt;font color=&quot;silver&quot;&gt;[[User:Silver seren|Silver]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk:Silver seren|seren]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:24, 28 September 2010 (UTC) ::::::Yeah, you would be correct Asarlaí. And no doubt the same debate arose around the infobox's which concerned English Cities. This option appears to possibly satisfy all those concerned. --[[User:NorthernCounties|NorthernCounties]] ([[User talk:NorthernCounties|talk]]) 15:35, 28 September 2010 (UTC) ::::::: Changing it to include fields : Sovereign State and Constituent Country seems to be a good way of resolving this. Is it simple to change the template to include those extra optional fields? [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 15:40, 28 September 2010 (UTC) Having looked at a lot of pages recently on Northern Ireland for my initial research alot of the pages say Sovereign State: UK, Country: Northern Ireland. So why the fuss over the Giant's Causeway? I would imagine most people know the ingredients of the UK if they don't they can just read the UK WP. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/147.114.44.201|147.114.44.201]] ([[User talk:147.114.44.201|talk]]) 09:15, 29 September 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; BritishWatcher, I don't think everyone is in agreement to change anything? Having scanned the thread there is some compelling sources that suggest that Northern Ireland isn't a country but probably as many if not more suggesting it is a country. In absence of an agreement should the page not just be changed to be consistent with every other page with a Northern Topic ie Sovereign State:UK, Country: NI? I think someone mentioned before that this not the page either to discuss this given that it is such a large topic being discussed solely by those who monitor this page. Aside from this I am not sure how Northern Ireland being called a country could be deemed offensive or non-neutral?[[User:Dame edna uk|Dame edna uk]] ([[User talk:Dame edna uk|talk]]) 08:49, 1 October 2010 (UTC) : I thought the idea of putting Sovereign state: UK, Constituent country: Northern Ireland, in the infobox as suggested above was the best option dealing with concerns on both sides. I tried changing the infobox, but it didnt work. Its in line with some of the templates like at [[Manchester]]. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 12:10, 3 October 2010 (UTC) Is this page going to be changed? It still says country: 'United Kingdon' when it should say Northern Ireland.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 08:38, 21 October 2010 (UTC) :Northern Ireland is not a country. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 08:50, 21 October 2010 (UTC) United Kingdom isnt a country. so where does that leave us? Could we just remove United Kingdom and Northern Ireland and just say some in the Northern Hemisphere? or would that too be deemed offensive and non-neutral[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 09:11, 21 October 2010 (UTC) : The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a country. Northern Ireland is a country of the United Kingdom. The proposed solution about changing the template was a good idea, sadly the template is mind boggling and ive no clue how to change it without messing everything up. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 09:42, 21 October 2010 (UTC) In keeping with the Northern Ireland wikipedia page, Northern Ireland is a country. It has been agreed there. So all you need to do is change Country to Northern Ireland and remove region or you can change region to sovereign state and include UK.simples.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 09:49, 21 October 2010 (UTC) : This is a copy of the template used [[User:BritishWatcher/geobox]]. It does not look very simple to add fields like sovereign state and constituent country. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 09:54, 21 October 2010 (UTC) just copy part of the template from another page.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 09:57, 21 October 2010 (UTC) :&quot;In keeping with the Northern Ireland wikipedia page, Northern Ireland is a country&quot;, wrong. Wikipedia cannot source itself. Northern Ireland is not a country, since its description as such is disputed by many reliable sources. There is no official legal designation of what Northern Ireland actually is by the British government. You cannot exclude sources because you dislike what they have to say in order to present opinion as fact. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 16:53, 21 October 2010 (UTC) Well given that the content of the Northern Ireland Wikipedia page is based on numerous reliable sources, i'd say it is safe to assume that those same sources can be applied to this page aswell. Its a matter of consistency aswell. The consensus on the Northern Ireland WP is that it is a country and that being the case this consensus should filter down through all Northern Ireland related articles.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 17:05, 21 October 2010 (UTC) : Saying Sovereign state: United Kingdom. Constituent country: Northern Ireland in the infobox is the best compromise, but it is not simple to change the template, you cant just copy and paste something. There is line after line saying country there, ive no idea where to insert them. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 18:17, 21 October 2010 (UTC) BritishWatcher, what is the difference between saying Country and Constituent Country? Why is this page treated differently to every other page on Northern Ireland. If you go to any Northern Ireland Town page, the template includes Sovereign State and Country. Just change country to Northern Ireland and remove region.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 09:12, 22 October 2010 (UTC) If there are no objections I will edit this page to say ''Country:Northern Ireland'' and ''Sovereign State:United Kingdom'' in keeping with Infobox UK place template and other Northern Ireland related pages. Will leave it 24hrs before test edit.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 09:57, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Factocop, have you not read the above discussion? There is NO consensus for you to do the proposed edit so I suggest you leave it until a consensus is reached. [[User:Bjmullan|Bjmullan]] ([[User talk:Bjmullan|talk]]) 10:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::To describe Northern Ireland as a country is inherently point-of-view. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 10:09, 2 November 2010 (UTC) I have said before that this is hardly the place to discuss whether Northern Ireland is a country or not. That question should be discussed at a much larger forum. Would you agree?[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 10:13, 2 November 2010 (UTC) I don't see why this page should be different to other Northern Ireland related WP? If you look at any Northern Ireland town page they all say ''Country:Northern Ireland'' and ''Sovereign State:United Kingdom'' so until consensus is reached at a much larger forum, I think this page should be consistent with every other page relating to Northern Ireland. If there are no further objections then, I will edit the page to be consistent with other Northern Ireland related pages.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 10:24, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :No consensus so please leave as per my comments above. [[User:Bjmullan|Bjmullan]] ([[User talk:Bjmullan|talk]]) 10:59, 2 November 2010 (UTC) When you say consensus...did you raise this issue at a larger forum? I have said before, and you have chosen to ignore this point already but this issue affects all Northern Ireland related WP so this is obviously not the correct discussion page for this. This page will be changed to be in line with other Northern Ireland related articles until a consensus has been reached at a larger arena. Any further objections?[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 11:14, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :I see you are still not getting the indenting thing, it is very useful and all other editor would appreciate if you would comply with the norm. As for your question yes there is still objection as there isn't any consensus and you just repeating your statement doesn't change anything. [[User:Bjmullan|Bjmullan]] ([[User talk:Bjmullan|talk]]) 11:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::Have you raised this discussion at a larger forum? Why should this page be different from every other page relating to Northern Ireland? If you can not answer these questions, I will assume no objections to the change.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 11:34, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::As I have already pointed out this morning I am NOT your question and answer boy. Of course this issues is being discussed elsewhere why don't you go and find it. [[User:Bjmullan|Bjmullan]] ([[User talk:Bjmullan|talk]]) 12:18, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::: Thats the thing, I couldnt find it. If this is being discussed else where and consensus has not been met then this page should be changed to be in line with other Northern Ireland related pages. You still didnt answer my questions so ill assume no objection. Last chance....Why should this page be different from every other page relating to Northern Ireland? [[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 12:27, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::::: Hi Factocop. Firstly, I would respectfully point you to the following [[WP:ULTIMATUM|recommendation against declaring an ultimatum]]. It is not in the spirit of consensus to do so, and will only result in problems. Secondly, I would also point out that the UNESCO infobox (as with all other UNESCO infoboxes) refers to the &quot;state party&quot; which is signatory to the convention. This is [http://whc.unesco.org/en/statesparties/ the UK], and not NI. [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] ([[User talk:Guliolopez|talk]]) 13:08, 2 November 2010 (UTC) : I didnt mean it to sound like an ultimatum and Your right its not in the spirit of consensus, but I am not seeking consensus to whether Northern Ireland is a country or not on this page as it is far too small a forum for such a large issue. Bjmullan, has suggested that this issue has been raised elsewhere but cant find it. My notion is that if consenus can not or has not been reached that the page should reflect all other pages on Northern Ireland. I would agree with the UNESCO template. But at present the UNESCO template is not in use. I would be happy to use the template as used at Stone Henge for example.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 13:20, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ok, any objection to using the UNESCO template used at Stone Henge? If not, ill work away.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 15:43, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Is this {{tlx|Infobox World Heritage Site}}? Because this article seems to use it already. The difference between this one and [[Stonehenge]] is that this one uses {{tlx|Geobox}} before {{tlx|Infobox World Heritage Site}}. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 15:53, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :: Hi TFOWR, the problem here lies with certain users do not want to see ''Country:Northern Ireland'' in the infobox. I am guessing they are of a particular political persuasion that does not wish to recognise Northern Ireland as a country. Anyway...If you go to any other page relating to Northern Ireland you find in the infobox ''Country:Northern Ireland'' and ''Sovereign State:United Kingdom''. I would wish to have this page brought into line with other pages in Northern Ireland. Some users wish to argue that Northern Ireland is not a country here, in this very talk page. I am hoping that you would agree that, that argument needs to be brought to a larger forum? Bjmullan suggests that this discussion has already been raised. do you know where? I think until consensus is reached, either the page should be consistent with other Northern Ireland related pages or in line with the stone henge template as this does not include country in the infobox. what do you think?[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 16:23, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::FYI Factocop the UNESCO template doesn't support using NI in the box. It can only have countries recognised by UNESCO there (i.e. UK). [[User:Bjmullan|Bjmullan]] ([[User talk:Bjmullan|talk]]) 16:28, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::Aye, I'm familiar with the dispute, and trying to stay well out of it ;-) I was only querying &quot;adding&quot; the UNESCO template - as it seems to be used already. I suspect I'm missing something, however... are we discussing {{tlx|Infobox World Heritage Site}} or a different template? :::Back to the dispute, the question &quot;where is the wider forum where this is being discussed?&quot; does seem a reasonable one. I don't know the answer. I'd like to know the answer. Bjmullan, if you don't fancy telling Factocop, could you at least tell me?! [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 17:46, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::See my name page TFOW. Answered 5 minutes before you asked :-) [[User:Bjmullan|Bjmullan]] ([[User talk:Bjmullan|talk]]) 18:02, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::::Heh, ain't it always the way ;-) Ta! [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 18:40, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::Hi guys. Not sure where why it's anyone-else's responsibility to point it out, but a [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&amp;redirs=1&amp;search=%22northern+ireland%22+country&amp;fulltext=Search&amp;ns1=1&amp;title=Special%3ASearch&amp;advanced=1&amp;fulltext=Advanced+search quick search] shows that the &quot;country: yes/no&quot; question has been raised on [[Talk:Ireland#Northern_Ireland_a_country.3F|Talk:Ireland]] and [[Talk:Northern_Ireland#Northern_Ireland_isn.27t_a_country....|Talk:Northern Ireland]] ([[Talk:Northern_Ireland/Archive_8#RFC:_calling_Northern_Ireland_a_.22country.22|lots]] [[Talk:Northern_Ireland/Archive_10#.22Northern_Ireland.22_is_not_a_.22country.22|and]] [[Talk:Northern_Ireland/Archive_4#Northern_Ireland_is_a_country|lots]] [[Talk:Northern_Ireland/Archive_6#Is_Northern_Ireland_a_country.3F|of]] [[Talk:Northern_Ireland/Archive_5#Our_wee_country|times]]) - with no clear consensus either way. This is all somewhat mute however. If any editor is interested in changing the labels on the GEOBOX template, then my advice is to go and raise any concerns on the relevant infobox talk, (with a rationale as to why a new geo-political sub-division/label is required). If this is accepted/implemented in the infobox, then that takes the technical infobox limitations of the equation. Once that's sorted, any proposing editor is free to come back here with a rationale on why the new label should be used over the current. Otherwise all we're doing is going around in circles, and &quot;buck passing&quot;. [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] ([[User talk:Guliolopez|talk]]) 18:09, 2 November 2010 (UTC) http://erc.unesco.org/portal/UNESCOMemberStates.asp?language=en - Here UNESCO has ''United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'' as a 'member state'. This being the case then the current template is wrong as it should say 'member state:United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' not 'Country:United Kingdom'. Would you be happy with the stone henge template?[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 16:40, 2 November 2010 (UTC) Tried a test, the template supports ''Country:Northern Ireland'' but does not support ''Sovereign State:United Kingdom''. Maybe it only supports ''State Party:United Kingdom' as per the stone henge template?[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 16:47, 2 November 2010 (UTC) 2 more tests, Template supports state:UK and country:NI but does not support state party:United Kingdom. Bj, what did you mean when you said template doesnt support NI in the template?[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 17:04, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :I see you are still struggling with indents. The UNESCO template would not support putting Northern Ireland into the State Party field as only countries can be put there and NI is not a country. Why do you wish to use the UNESCO template? [[User:Bjmullan|Bjmullan]] ([[User talk:Bjmullan|talk]]) 17:34, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :: Keep on forgetting the indents. Ohh sorry, I thought you meant the current template. I dont wish to put Northern Ireland in the state party field. State party field is not for countries, it is for member states of which the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a member. Would you be happy if we used the exact same template as stone henge and in infobox ''state party:United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland''? Obviously I would prefer to bring the current template location to be in line with other Northern Ireland related pages, so this seems like a compromise to use the template used by other historic sites Wiki pages.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 17:51, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::[[Stonehenge]] just used United Kingdom in the State Party field. I see no benefit to anyone in changing the template. Can you perhaps list the reasons/advantages below? [[User:Bjmullan|Bjmullan]] ([[User talk:Bjmullan|talk]]) 18:05, 2 November 2010 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Battle_Hymn_of_the_Republic&diff=394422666</id> <title>Battle Hymn of the Republic</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Battle_Hymn_of_the_Republic&diff=394422666"/> <updated>2010-11-02T18:36:00Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Reverted good faith edits by 24.73.207.58 (talk); Correct title. (TW) <hr /> <div>{{stack| {{Listen |title=Battle Hymn of the Republic |filename=Battle Hymn of the Republic, Frank C. Stanley, Elise Stevenson.ogg |description=The Battle Hymn of the Republic, performed by Frank C. Stanley, Elise Stevenson, and a mixed quartet in 1908. }}}} [[Image:The Battle Hymn of the Republic - Project Gutenberg eText 21566.png|thumb|Cover of the 1862 sheet music for &quot;The Battle Hymn of the Republic&quot;]] '''&quot;The Battle Hymn of the Republic&quot;''' is a [[hymn]] by American writer [[Julia Ward Howe]] using the music from the [[Abolitionism|abolitionist]] song &quot;[[John Brown (abolitionist)|John Brown]]'s Body&quot;. Howe's more famous lyrics were written in November 1861 and first published in ''[[The Atlantic Monthly]]'' in February 1862. It became popular during the [[American Civil War]]. Since that time it has become an extremely popular and well-known American [[Patriotism|patriotic]] song. ==History== The tune was written around 1856 by [[William Steffe]]. The first known lyrics were called &quot;Canaan's Happy Shore&quot; or &quot;Brothers, Will You Meet Me?&quot; and the song was sung as a [[Spiritual (music)|campfire spiritual]]. The tune spread across the [[music of the United States|United States]], gaining a reputation as the best song of its time. Thomas Bishop, from [[Vermont]], joined the [[Massachusetts]] Infantry before the outbreak of war and compiled a popular set of lyrics, circa 1860, titled &quot;[[John Brown's Body]]&quot;, which became one of his unit's [[cadence call|walking songs]]. According to writer [[Irwin Silber]] (who has written a book about Civil War folk songs), the original lyrics were about [[John Brown (abolitionist)|John Brown]], the famed [[Abolitionism|abolitionist]]. Bishop's battalion was dispatched to [[Washington, D.C.]] early in the Civil War, and Julia Ward Howe heard this song during a public review of the troops outside Washington on [[Upton's Hill]], Virginia. [[Rufus R. Dawes]], then in command of Company &quot;K&quot; of the Sixth Wisconsin Volunteer Infantry, stated in his memoirs that the man who started the singing was Sergeant John Ticknor of his company. By this time the association with the diminutive Scotsman John Brown was forgotten or unknown to most listeners, who heard only a rough and somewhat oddly-phrased marching song about John Brown the abolitionist. Howe's companion at the review, the Reverend [[James Freeman Clarke]],&lt;ref&gt;Williams, Gary. ''Hungry Heart: The Literary Emergence of Julia Ward Howe''. Amherst: University of Massachusetts Press, 1999: 208. ISBN 1-55849-157-0&lt;/ref&gt; suggested to Howe that she write new words for the fighting men's song. Staying at the [[Willard Hotel]] in Washington on the night of November 18, 1861, Howe awoke with the words of the song in her mind and in near darkness wrote the verses to the &quot;Battle Hymn of the Republic&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/richards/howe/howe-I.html |title=Julia Ward Howe, 1819-1910, Vol. I |publisher=Digital.library.upenn.edu |date=1912-06-01 |accessdate=2010-07-02}}&lt;/ref&gt; Of the writing of the lyrics, Howe remembered: {{bquote|I went to bed that night as usual, and slept, according to my wont, quite soundly. I awoke in the gray of the morning twilight; and as I lay waiting for the dawn, the long lines of the desired poem began to twine themselves in my mind. Having thought out all the stanzas, I said to myself, 'I must get up and write these verses down, lest I fall asleep again and forget them.' So, with a sudden effort, I sprang out of bed, and found in the dimness an old stump of a pen which I remembered to have used the day before. I scrawled the verses almost without looking at the paper.&lt;ref&gt;Howe, Julia Ward. ''Reminiscences: 1819-1899.''Houghton, Mifflin: New York, 1899. p. 275.&lt;/ref&gt;}} [[Image:Battle Hymn of the Republic.jpg|thumb|As originally published 1862 in ''[[The Atlantic Monthly]]'']]Howe's &quot;The Battle Hymn of the Republic&quot; was first published on the front page of ''[[The Atlantic Monthly]]'' of February 1862. The sixth verse written by Howe, which is less commonly sung, was not published at that time. The song was also published as a broadside in 1863 by the Supervisory Committee for Recruiting Colored Regiments in Philadelphia. Both &quot;John Brown&quot; and &quot;Battle Hymn of the Republic&quot; were published in Father Kemp's ''Old Folks Concert Tunes'' in 1874 and reprinted in 1889. Both songs had the same Chorus with an additional &quot;Glory&quot; in the second line: &quot;Glory! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!&quot;&lt;ref&gt;Hall, Roger L. ''New England Songster.'' PineTree Press, 1997.&lt;/ref&gt; Julia Ward Howe was the wife of [[Samuel Gridley Howe]], the famed scholar in education of the blind. Samuel and Julia were also active leaders in anti-slavery politics and strong supporters of the Union. Samuel Howe was a member of the [[Secret Six]], the group who funded John Brown's work. ==Score== &quot;Canaan's Happy Shore&quot; has a verse and chorus of equal metrical length and both verse and chorus share an identical melody and rhythm. &quot;John Brown's Body&quot; has more syllables in its verse and uses a more rhythmically active variation of the &quot;Canaan&quot; melody to accommodate the additional words in the verse. In Howe's lyrics, the words of the verse are packed into a yet longer line, with even more syllables than &quot;John Brown's Body&quot;. The verse still uses the same underlying melody as the refrain, but the addition of many dotted rhythms to the underlying melody allows for the more complex verse to fit the same melody as the comparatively short refrain. :''One version of the melody, in [[C major]], begins as below. This is an example of the [[mediant-octave modal frame]].'' [[Image:Battle Hymn of the Republic beginning.png|550px|center|&quot;The Battle Hymn of the Republic&quot; melody beginning]] ==Lyrics== {{The Battle Hymn of the Republic}} ===Biblical references=== The song alludes to several Biblical passages. The first verse draws either on the [[Book of Revelation]] (which describes an [[angel]] casting grapes into &quot;the great winepress of the wrath of God&quot; (14:19), and later describes the [[Logos (Christianity)|Word of God]] who wields &quot;a sharp sword&quot; and &quot;treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God&quot; (19:15)) or [[Book of Isaiah|Isaiah]] 63:3 (&quot;A wine press I trod alone, and from the peoples, none was with Me; and I trod them with My wrath, and I trampled them with My fury, and their life blood sprinkled on My garments, and all My clothing I soiled&quot;). The third verse refers to [[Tetragrammaton|YHWH]] [[Elohim]]'s ([[God]]'s) statement in [[Book of Genesis|Genesis]] 3:15 that the woman's ([[Eve]]'s) offspring will step on and bruise (or crush) the head of the [[Serpent (Bible)|serpent]] (and/or its seed), while the serpent will strike at his [[heel]]. Indirectly, this also refers to Revelation(Apocalypse in Catholic/Orthodox bibles) 12:1-10, where a woman (often interpreted as being The Blessed Virgin Mary and/or the newly formed Christian Church and/or the ancient Israel) bears a child while engaged in struggle with a dragon/serpent. The dragon/serpent is defeated. The fourth verse alludes to [[Second Epistle to the Corinthians|2 Corinthians]] 5:10, which states that &quot;we must all appear before the [[Divine judgment|judgment]] [[Cathedra|seat]] of [[Christ]]; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.&quot; The fifth verse refers to the doctrine that Christians can be made [[holy]] through the death of Christ ([[Epistle to the Colossians|Colossians]] 1:21–22). The sixth verse refers to the [[Earth]] as the [[footstool]] of God, a claim that appears in [[Book of Isaiah|Isaiah]] 66:1, [[Gospel of Matthew|Matthew]] 5:35, and [[Acts of the Apostles|Acts]] 7:49. ===Notes=== In later years, when this song was sung in a non-military environment, the clause &quot;let us die to make men free&quot; was sometimes changed to &quot;let us ''live'' to make men free&quot;. This change can be seen in most modern hymnals. In addition, the term &quot;bosom&quot; in the fifth verse is often changed to &quot;being&quot;. Sometimes, [[gender neutrality in English|gender-neutral language]] is used and it is sung as &quot;as he died to make ''us'' holy, let us live to make ''all'' free&quot;. The sixth verse is often omitted, as is the third. Also, a common variant changes &quot;soul of Time&quot; to read &quot;soul of wrong&quot;, and &quot;succour&quot; to &quot;honor&quot;. Also, when the sixth verse is omitted, the fifth verse can be sung at a slower pace than the rest of the song. ==Influence== ===Popularity and widespread use=== In the years since the Civil War, &quot;The Battle Hymn of the Republic&quot; has been used frequently as an American patriotic song.{{Citation needed|date=May 2010}} This song is usually heard at the national conventions of both the [[Republican Party (United States)|Republican Party]] and [[Democratic Party (United States)|Democratic Party]],{{Citation needed|date=May 2010}} and is often sung at Presidential inaugurations.{{Citation needed|date=May 2010}} ===Recordings and public performances=== In [[Grammy Awards of 1960|1960]] the [[Mormon Tabernacle Choir]] won the [[Grammy Award]] for [[Grammy Award for Best Performance by a Vocal Group or Chorus|Best Performance by a Vocal Group or Chorus]]. The [[Gramophone record|45 rpm]] single record, which was arranged and edited by [[Columbia Records]] and Cleveland disk jockey [[Bill Randle]], was an unlikely commercial success and reached #13 on Billboard's Hot 100 the previous autumn.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.americanmusicpreservation.com/BattleHymnoftheRepublic.htm |title=Battle Hymn of the Republic (original version) |publisher=Americanmusicpreservation.com |date= |accessdate=2010-07-02}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Judy Garland]] performed this song on her weekly television show in December 1963. She originally wanted to do a dedication show for JFK upon his assassination but CBS would not let her, so she performed the song without being able to mention his name.&lt;ref&gt;Sanders, Coyne Steven (1990). ''Rainbow's End: The Judy Garland Show''. Zebra Books. ISBN 0-8217-3708-2 (paperback edition).&lt;/ref&gt; ===Influence on other media=== Words from the first verse gave [[John Steinbeck]] the title of his 1939 masterpiece ''[[The Grapes of Wrath]]''. The title of [[John Updike]]'s ''[[In the Beauty of the Lilies]]'' also came from this song, as did ''Terrible Swift Sword'' and ''Never Call Retreat'', two volumes in [[Bruce Catton]]'s ''Centennial History of the Civil War''. The lyrics of &quot;The Battle Hymn of the Republic&quot; appear in [[Martin Luther King, Jr.]]'s sermons and speeches, most notably in his speech &quot;[[How Long, Not Long]]&quot; from the steps of the Montgomery, Alabama Courthouse on March 25, 1965 after the 3rd [[Selma March]], and in his final sermon &quot;[[I've Been to the Mountaintop]]&quot;, delivered in Memphis, Tennessee on the evening of April 3, 1968, the night before his assassination. In fact, the latter sermon, King's last public words, ends with the first lyrics of the &quot;Battle Hymn&quot;, &quot;Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord.&quot; The opening line to 'These Things Take Time' by The Smiths alludes to the first line of 'The Battle Hymn': 'Mine eyes have seen the glory of the sacred wunderkind / You took me behind a disused railway line.'{{Citation needed|date=May 2010}} In [[Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri]], one of the colony names for the Believers faction is &quot;Terrible Swift Sword&quot; (their colonies are all named with references to Christianity).{{Citation needed|date=May 2010}} An instrumental version features in the film [[Born Yesterday (1950 film)|Born Yesterday]] (1950) ===Other songs set to this tune=== The tune has been used with alternative lyrics numerous times. The most famous variant is &quot;[[Solidarity Forever]]&quot;, a marching song for [[organized labor]] in the 20th century.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.musicanet.org/robokopp/usa/whenunio.htm |title=musicnet.org: '&amp;#39;Solidarity Forever'&amp;#39;: Melody - &quot;Battle Hymn of the Republic&quot;, William Steffe?, 1862 |publisher=Musicanet.org |date= |accessdate=2010-07-02}}&lt;/ref&gt; It was also the basis for the anthem of the American [[consumers' cooperative]] movement, &quot;[[The Battle Hymn of Cooperation]]&quot;, written in 1932.{{Citation needed|date=May 2010}} The [[United States Army]] [[paratrooper]] song, &quot;[[Blood on the Risers]]&quot;, first sung in [[World War II]], is set to the tune of &quot;The Battle Hymn of the Republic&quot;.{{Citation needed|date=May 2010}} A number of popular [[Football chant|terrace songs]] (in [[association football|football]]) are sung to the tune in Britain; renditions include [[Northern Ireland national football team|&quot;We're not Brazil, we're Northern Ireland&quot;]], Glory Glory Leeds United&quot;, &quot;[[Glory Glory Man United]]&quot;, and &quot;Glory Glory Tottenham Hotspur&quot; which was also recorded as the B-side for the 1981 FA Cup single: Ossie's Dream&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.chartstats.com/songinfo.php?id=9365 |title=OSsie's Dream entry on ChartStats.com}}&lt;/ref&gt;. The [[1994 FIFA World Cup]] official song &quot;Gloryland&quot; interpreted by Daryl Hall and the Sound of the Blackness has the tune of &quot;The Battle Hymn of the Republic&quot;.{{Citation needed|date=May 2010}}&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|author=&amp;ldquo;&amp;rdquo; |url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lyNR0UMVic |title=Gloryland 1994 World Cup Song |publisher=YouTube |date= |accessdate=2010-09-28}}&lt;/ref&gt; Locally in the United States, the MLS club [[Colorado Rapids]] have their own adaption, which includes 1 verse of the main song, titled &quot;Glory, Glory Colorado&quot; In 1983, the Manchester United version (which had only recently come into use among the club's fans) was recorded by the club's players as their official song for the [[1983 FA Cup Final|FA Cup final that year]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last=Wighton |first=Kate |url=http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/3155379/Historical-tunes-behind-footies-terrace-chants.html |title=Historical tunes behind footie’s terrace chants &amp;#124; The Sun &amp;#124;Features |publisher=The Sun |date= |accessdate=2010-09-28}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Len Chandler]] sang a song called &quot;move on over&quot; to this tune on [[Pete Seeger]]'s [[Rainbow Quest]] TV show.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|author=&amp;ldquo;&amp;rdquo; |url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAHk3TGR7WE |title=Len Chandler &amp; Pete Seeger - Move on Over (John Brown's Body) |publisher=YouTube |date=2008-11-14 |accessdate=2010-07-02}}&lt;/ref&gt; The British band [[Half Man Half Biscuit]] used the melody for their song &quot;Vatican Broadside&quot;.{{Citation needed|date=May 2010}} &quot;lief klein konijntje&quot; is a popular Dutch children's song.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|author=&amp;ldquo;&amp;rdquo; |url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8xppjAy2MI |title=Lief klein konijntje |publisher=YouTube |date= |accessdate=2010-07-02}}&lt;/ref&gt; &quot;Kalle-Kustaan muori makaa hiljaa haudassaan, ja yli haudan me marssimme näin&quot;(Kalle-Kustaa's hag lies silently in her grave, and we're marching over the grave like this.) is a popular derivative song labouring the same tune sung often by the Finnish military when marching on feet. Cajun country singer [[Johnny Rebel (singer)|Johnny Rebel]] used the tune for his song &quot;The White Man Marches On,&quot; as a parody of &quot;The Battle Hymn of the Republic&quot;. Rebel's song was also used in the film ''[[American History X]]'' as Seth Ryan, played by [[Ethan Suplee]], was driving his van and singing along to the lyrics while it was playing on the radio.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=American History X (1998) - Memorable quotes|url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120586/quotes?qt0314550}}&lt;/ref&gt; Various parodies have been written using the song. &quot;[[The Burning of the School]]&quot; is a well-known one.{{Citation needed|date=May 2010}} A somewhat more mature parody is [[My Son, the Folk Singer|&quot;The Ballad of Harry Lewis&quot;]], by [[Allan Sherman]].{{Citation needed|date=May 2010}} In Poland, the tune is known with Polish lyrics based on &quot;John Brown's Body&quot; version, rather than Julia Ward Howe's. Based on that version, a parody was sung in Poland in 1970s ridiculing [[Andrzej Czechowicz]], a Polish spy styled by state propaganda as a national hero for infiltrating [[Radio Free Europe]]. &quot;Queen's College Colours,&quot; written in 1898 by student Alfred Lavell to inspire Queen's football team to victory after a disappointing loss to the University of Toronto, is also set to the tune of &quot;The Battle Hymn of the Republic&quot;. == See also == *[[William Weston Patton]] *[[Glory, Glory (fight song)|&quot;Glory, Glory&quot; (Georgia fight song)]] *[[Blood on the Risers]] ==References== {{Reflist}} ==Further reading== *Claghorn, Charles Eugene, &quot;Battle Hymn: The Story Behind ''The Battle Hymn of the Republic''&quot;. Papers of the [[Hymn Society in the United States and Canada|Hymn Society of America]], XXIX. *Jackson, ''Popular Songs of Nineteenth-Century America'', note on &quot;Battle Hymn of the Republic&quot;, p.&amp;nbsp;263–4. *Scholes, Percy A. (1955). &quot;John Brown's Body&quot;, ''The Oxford Companion of Music''. Ninth edition. London: Oxford University Press. *Stutler, Boyd B. (1960). ''Glory, Glory, Hallelujah! The Story of &quot;John Brown's Body&quot; and &quot;Battle Hymn of the Republic''.&quot; Cincinnati: The C. J. Krehbiel Co. *Clifford, Deborah Pickman. (1978). ''Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory: A Biography of Julia Ward Howe''. Boston: Little, Brown and Co. *Vowell, Sarah. (2005). &quot;John Brown's Body,&quot; in ''The Rose and the Briar: Death, Love and Liberty in the American Ballad''. Ed. by Sean Wilentz and Greil Marcus. New York: W. W. Norton. ==External links== {{wikisource|Battle Hymn of the Republic}} *[http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/dynaweb/sheetmusic/1910-1920/@Generic__BookTextView/2155;nh=1?DwebQuery=a6037#X 1917 Sheet Music] at [[Duke University]] as part of the [[American Memory]] collection of the [[Library of Congress]] *[http://cylinders.library.ucsb.edu/mp3s/7000/7867/cusb-cyl7867d.mp3 &quot;The Battle Hymn of the Republic&quot;], Stevenson &amp; Stanley (Edison Amberol 79, 1908)—''[http://cylinders.library.ucsb.edu/index.php Cylinder Preservation and Digitization Project]''. *[http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/richards/howe/battle.html The Battle Hymn of the Republic. Facsimile of first draft] *[http://www.gutenberg.org/files/21566/21566-h/images/battlehymn.pdf Sheet music] for The Battle Hymn of the Republic, from [[Project Gutenberg]] *[http://www.gutenberg.org/files/21566/21566-h/music/battlehymn.midi MIDI] for The Battle Hymn of the Republic from Project Gutenberg *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHVZK7nFYRQ The Battle Hymn of the Republic] sung at [[Washington National Cathedral]], mourning the [[September 11, 2001 attacks]]. *[http://www.americanmusicpreservation.com/BattleHymnoftheRepublic.htm Recording of original version of Battle Hymn of the Republic] {{DEFAULTSORT:Battle Hymn Of The Republic, The}} [[Category:1853 songs]] [[Category:1862 in the United States]] [[Category:American folk songs]] [[Category:Joan Baez songs]] [[Category:American patriotic songs]] [[Category:Songs of the American Civil War]] [[da:Battle Hymn of the Republic]] [[de:The Battle Hymn of the Republic]] [[fr:The Battle Hymn of the Republic]] [[he:מזמור הקרב על הרפובליקה]] [[lb:The Battle Hymn of the Republic]] [[ja:リパブリック讃歌]] [[pl:Hymn Bojowy Republiki]] [[pt:The Battle Hymn of the Republic]] [[ro:The Battle Hymn of the Republic]] [[sl:The Battle Hymn of the Republic]] [[fi:The Battle Hymn of the Republic]] [[sv:Battle Hymn of the Republic]] [[vi:The Battle Hymn of the Republic]] [[zh:共和國戰歌]]</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Giant%27s_Causeway&diff=394414168</id> <title>Talk:Giant's Causeway</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Giant%27s_Causeway&diff=394414168"/> <updated>2010-11-02T17:46:20Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: /* Northern Ireland is a country */ r. @ Factocop, Bjmullan <hr /> <div>{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1= {{WikiProject Northern Ireland|class=B|importance=Top}} {{WikiProject Volcanoes| class=B | importance=Mid}} {{WPCD}} {{WikiProject Ireland|nested= |class=start |importance=mid |attention= |peer-review= |old-peer-review= }} {{WikiProject UK geography|class=Start|importance=high}} }} ==To add== To add: More on geology/formation, legends Is it worth adding in more about the Causeway Coast itself - as the Giant's Causeway itself is part of this much larger UNESCO world heritage site the comprises a great deal of the Antrim Coastline. I notice the coast is mentioned in the fact box but not in the article itself. The Causeway Coast contains a number of related geological features such as the Carrick-A-Rede rope-bridge and many historical sites such as Dunluce Castle. Does an article about the Causeway Coast already exist? I cannot find one but maybe I am being blind. It could be argued that the Causeway Coast deserves an article in and of itself separate to the Giant's Causeway, but I would be concerned that such an article would belong in wikitravel as it is a Giant Tourist Trap. Any ideas? I'll put in a much needed geology section into this article in next few weeks, with a better description of the formation of columnar jointing and an overview of the geological setting in which it was formed etc. etc. etc. [[User:Fossiliferous|Fossiliferous]] 17:54, 28 September 2007 (UTC) ==Height== Notice: About the height of collumns, 12 metres is not 100 feet, 12 metres is about 40 feet, or, 100 feet is about 30 metres, so one of the values is correct, and the other one should be corrected. == Merge == I've added a proposal to merge [[Giant's Causeway Legend]] into this article. [[User:Peyna|Peyna]] 02:18, 3 December 2005 (UTC) :'''MERGE''' - It certainly should be. Neither this article nor that is developed enough to justify the two articles, nor is there the potential for the legend article to reach the sort of threshold required for separation. [[User:Bastin8|Bastin8]] 18:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC) :'''MERGE''' - Should be merged. Simply suggest new '''Legend''' sub-section in the [[Giant's Causeway]] article. [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] 12:59, 14 February 2006 (UTC) :'''Alternative''' There already is information in the Causeway article about the legend but only a mention in the [[Fionn mac Cumhail]] article, perheps it should be merged there? [[User:SeanMack|SeanMack]] 13:21, 14 February 2006 (UTC) ::Any final thoughts on this? If no final updates, will likely merge the content from the [[Giant's Causeway Legend]] article into the existing ''legend'' section in this article, add a summary reference to the [[Fionn mac Cumhail]] article, and redirect the ''Giant's Causeway Legend'' entry to the this (main) ''Giant's Causeway'' article... [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] 18:38, 3 March 2006 (UTC) :'''MERGE''' Too many themes beloging together are split up into several article--[[User:Hun2|Hun2]] 16:38, 12 March 2006 (UTC) :No brainer merge, really. [[Giant's Causeway Legend]] is not much more than a stub, and this article could do with expansion. Furthermore with this article expanded you could work the images into the text better and enlarge them. Right now you're ''wasting'' your images quite frankly. --[[User:Kingboyk|kingboyk]] 05:04, 13 March 2006 (UTC) '''Done.''' --[[User:Setanta747|Mal]] 23:45, 4 April 2006 (UTC) :'''MERGE''' This could cause less confusion. == Results of merger == I merged the Legend article into this one, though that has left some repeated information. I might get around to it, but I left a copyedit tag in case anyone else wants to try it in the meantime. I've already done a fair bit of work to it.. and please note that I have copied information from the website directly into the article as a comment, which might help other editors. I will delete this info once I feel all the info has been used - please leave it intact for now. --[[User:Setanta747|Mal]] 23:44, 4 April 2006 (UTC) :I have heard tell that the legend attached to the Giants Causeway is a relatively recent development (ie less than 400 years old) and that it was made up (or widely publicized) to attract the attention of the Romantics and the Victorian naturalists. Is there any reliable information concerning the development, age and origins of the myth? [[User:Amatire|Ammi]] 21:03, 5 November 2006 (UTC) ==Website info== {{user|Setanta747}} pasted the Giant's Causeway web site into the article as a comment below the main text. I have deleted it, as I deleted it when I copyedited the article a couple of days ago. I included everything from the web site in the article that I thought was appropriate for an encyclopedia. Text like &quot;For centuries countless visitors have marvelled at the majesty and mystery of the Giants Causeway&quot; is wonderful for a promotional web site but not appropriate for an encyclopedia. Neither is information on visitor center amenities or driving directions. The article links to the official web site so there is a clear way for people who are interested in visiting to find out more. Also there is the possibilty of copyright problems. In the US, information published by the government is in the public domain, but I don't know if that pertains to the UK, or if the National Trust is considered part of the government for purposes of copyright or considered a private agency. At this point I think that all the site details from the web site that belong in an encyclopedia are there. [[User:Thatcher131|Thatcher131]] 22:22, 16 April 2006 (UTC) : Fair enough Thatcher - I hadn't considered that you'd gone through it and copyedited appropriate info from it. If that is the case then its usefulness has now ended. As for copyright - the information wasn't published as such, which is specifically why I had added it as a comment. --[[User:Setanta747|Mal]] 08:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC) == Auto Peer Review == The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic [[User:AndyZ/peerreviewer.js|javascript program]], and might not be applicable for the article in question. *Per [[WP:CONTEXT]] and [[WP:MOSDATE]], months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide [[WP:CONTEXT|context]] for the article. *Per [[WP:MOSNUM#Units of measurement|WP:MOSNUM]], there should be a non-breaking space - &lt;code&gt;&amp;amp;nbsp;&lt;/code&gt; between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of ''18mm'', use ''18&amp;nbsp;mm'', which when you are editing the page, should look like: &lt;tt&gt;18&amp;amp;nbsp;mm&lt;/tt&gt;.&lt;ref name=&quot;nbsp&quot;&gt;See footnote&lt;/ref&gt; *Per [[WP:MOSNUM]], please spell out source units of measurements in text; for example, ''&quot;the Moon is 380,000 kilometres (240,000 mi) from Earth''.&lt;ref name=&quot;spellnum&quot;&gt;See footnote&lt;/ref&gt; *Please alphabetize the {{{1|[[WP:IL|interlanguage links]]}}}.&lt;ref name=&quot;alpha&quot;&gt;See footnote&lt;/ref&gt; *This article is a bit too short, and therefore may not be as comprehensive as [[WP:WIAFA]] critera 2(b) is looking for. Please see if anything can be expanded upon. {{{1|}}} *There are a few occurrences of [[weasel word]]s in this article- please observe [[WP:AWT]]. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view. {{#if:''allege''|For example, **''allege''}}{{#if:{{{2|}}}|**{{{2}}}}}{{#if:{{{3|}}}|**{{{3}}}}}{{#if:{{{4|}}}|**{{{4}}}}}{{#if:{{{5|}}}|**{{{5}}}}}{{#if:{{{6|}}}|**{{{6}}}}} {{#if:''allege''|**might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper [[WP:FOOTNOTE|citations]] (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please &lt;strike&gt;strike&lt;/strike&gt; this comment).}}&lt;ref name=&quot;awt&quot;&gt;See footnote&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;!--This javascript cannot determine if a citation is provided; if all weasel terms are covered by citations, please strike this--&gt; *Watch for [[User:Tony1/How_to_satisfy_Criterion_2a#Redundancy|redundancies]] that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's [[User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 2a: redundancy exercises|redundancy exercises]].) **Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “&lt;font color='red'&gt;&lt;s&gt;All&lt;/s&gt;&lt;/font&gt; pigs are pink, so we thought of &lt;font color='red'&gt;&lt;s&gt;a number of&lt;/s&gt;&lt;/font&gt; ways to turn them green.” *Please provide citations for all of the &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{fact}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;s. *Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that the it exemplifies some of [[WP:WIAFA|Wikipedia's best work]]. See also [[User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 2a]]. {{#if:{{{1|}}}|For example, **{{{1}}}}}{{#if:{{{2|}}}|**{{{2}}}}}{{#if:{{{3|}}}|**{{{3}}}}}{{#if:{{{4|}}}|**{{{4}}}}}{{#if:{{{5|}}}|**{{{5}}}}}{{#if:{{{6|}}}|**{{{6}}}}}{{#if:{{{1|}}}|**and perhaps other copyediting fixes for grammar/spelling are needed.}}&lt;ref name=&quot;copyedit&quot;&gt;See footnote&lt;/ref&gt; You may wish to browse through [[User:AndyZ/Suggestions]] for further ideas. Thanks, [[User:Setanta747|Mal]] 08:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC) Good Job on the page. == World Heritage Site == World Heritage site of Ireland?! Ireland is what the Republic calls itself (and is its official name I believe). The Giant's Causeway is in the United Kingdom not Ireland and i've changed the article to reflect this reality. You can't use the word Ireland to refer to something that exists within the United Kingdom because of the words Irish Nationalist connotations.[[User:YourPTR!|YourPTR!]] 04:34, 27 December 2006 (UTC) :Hi. In the context of the template, &quot;Ireland&quot; refers to the island (the geographical entity) rather than the &quot;Republic of Ireland&quot; (the political entity). You may note that there are two templates on the page; one &quot;WH Sites of Ireland&quot;, the other &quot;WH Sites in the UK&quot;. Both are likely valid in context. To engage in a &quot;what the word 'Ireland' means or is assumed to mean&quot; argument in the context of a natural phenomenon (which existed for 63 million years before the first human thought to give it a name or context) is probably not a good path to go down. (Someone[else] likely reverted your edit for this reason) [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] 16:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC) :Given that a causeway exists specifically to join two land masses across a stretch of water, couldn't we consider that one end is in Scotland ? We Scots don't market it as much as the Irish, but basalt columns crop up in many places on our west coast and Hebridean islands - Fingal's cave on Staffa, Kilt Rock on [[Skye]], Howmore to Rubha Ardvule on Uist. If I remember correctly, it is locally known as the Giant's Causeway even in Scotland. It may even have been the last link when the islands divided as the sea lowered in prehistoric times ? Maybe maritime charts would confirm or deny that ? Citation needed ! --[[Special:Contributions/195.137.93.171|195.137.93.171]] ([[User talk:195.137.93.171|talk]]) 02:10, 13 September 2008 (UTC) == Popular culture references / Trivia == The &quot;popular culture references&quot; section here includes some decidely [[WP:NN|NN]] inclusions. While there is [[Wikipedia:&quot;In popular culture&quot; articles|some discussion]] about the value of &quot;popculture&quot; references in general, several of the examples listed here are not notable and read like [[fancruft]] that is not relevant to the context of the article subject. (A lot of the examples represent &quot;throw away&quot; references in books, backdrops for music videos or interviews, or whatever). Unless - for example - the Causeway was a significant theme in a notable work, it probably isn't notable here. Otherwise it seems dubious under [[WP:NOT#INFO]]. I'm going to do some summarising. Beyond that, the section may be worthy or a more complete cull in the longer term. [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] 12:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC) :This section is getting worse. More fancruft, with severely dubious relevance to the topic, continues to be added. (And - in my view - will be so long as the section exists). Are there any comments on the value of this content? Does it give additional context to the topic for the reader? Personally I think that the fact that someone wrote a (B-Side) song in 2003 named after a 50 million year old formation is irrelevant to the formation itself. Would like to confirm some consensus however before a cull here.... [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] 21:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC) ::The WWE and Scooter references are entirely irrelevant. The Cremaster Cycle article doesn't even mention the Causeway, so it can go as well. The Led Zep and Stone Roses album covers probably have the best case for inclusion, they are certainly of interest - the Stone Roses' debut is arguably my favourite all-time album, but I had no idea the Causeway was the background of the album cover until I read this. They are both notable works, but as you said above they are not sufficiently significant themes in them. So cull the lot I say. [[User:Stubacca|&lt;font color = &quot;green&quot;&gt;'''Stu'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Stubacca|&lt;font color = &quot;green&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''’Bout ye!''&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] 09:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC) ====Trivia revisited==== Unless there are other opinions, I'm going to summarise the Trivia section. Again. Since the last review, it has reverted to its long and unwieldy state. (With recently added references to non-notable book covers, throw away refs in Hellboy, the Simpsons, etc). This detail is - in my view - very very weak, of limited encyclopedic value, and represents the type of miscellaneous/random trivia that the [[Wikipedia:Trivia sections|relevant guidelines]] suggest we avoid. As noted before, this formation has been around for millions of years. The fact that it is mentioned fleetingly in a recent feature film, or was on screen for 5 seconds in a Simpsons episode isn't really relevant, and is a &quot;symptom&quot; of the subjects notability, rather than contributing to it. Compare to a &quot;list of films and books the Great Pyramid of Giza is mentioned in&quot; at the foot of that article. It would be ridiculously long and pointless. I may be misreading the guidelines here, so will await any other comments before engaging in some more summarisation (again). [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] ([[User talk:Guliolopez|talk]]) 15:44, 30 March 2009 (UTC) ==History/Geology== I have separated these. However I have one ref. which refers to &quot;slow cooling of the great pool of molten rock,...&quot; I'm nor sure which is correct. Ref. Wilson, H.E.1972. ''Regional Geology of Northern Irelad'' Ministry of Commerce Geologiucal Servay of Northern Ireland, Belfast, Her Majesty's Stationary Office.[[User:Osborne|Osborne]] 08:50, 11 September 2007 (UTC) ==Intrusive or Extrusive== The article seems to say that the origin of the rock is as an intrusive lava.... If it is an intrusive rock, it should be referred to as magma. If extrusive as lava. It is currently geologically incorrect. --[[Special:Contributions/86.145.68.88|86.145.68.88]] ([[User talk:86.145.68.88|talk]]) 19:25, 10 April 2008 (UTC) == Location == where in NI is this? &lt;small&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/203.217.59.87|203.217.59.87]] ([[User talk:203.217.59.87|talk]]) 10:41, 14 June 2008 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :It's on the North East coast in County Antrim. Is mentioned a few times in the article. There is also a coordinates link up the top right. [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] ([[User talk:Guliolopez|talk]]) 17:12, 14 June 2008 (UTC) == Hexagonal prisms in nature == The article states, &quot;While contraction in the vertical direction reduced the flow thickness (without fracturing), horizontal contraction could only be accommodated by cracking throughout the flow.&quot; This empoverished explanation is frequently offered wherever polygonal cracks are described, such as in [http://giantcrystals.strahlen.org/europe/basalt.htm Formation of basalt columns], from the article's External Links section. The only parsimonious, satisfying scientific explanation of the formation of right hexagonal prisms in nature is [[Bénard cells]] (see, for example, [http://www.physics.gatech.edu/schatz/control/benard.html Hexagons: Wave Numbers &amp; Defects]). In the case of the Giant's Causeway, it is easy to imagine convection occurring in liquid basalt lava, immediately prior to cooling. The viscosity of the basalt naturally drags adjacent material upward, as the hotter material rises due to buoyancy. This tends to form adjacent columns of alternately rising and falling material. The vertical motion of convection is, of course, the explanation for why fairly accurate right prisms are usually formed, rather than oblique prisms, pyramids, twisted columns, spirals, or other geometries that are sometimes seen in the laboratory. Imagine a packing of cylindrical convection columns. They would be pushed together (the formation of cylinders would not occur because stable systems alway contract to minimal-energy configurations), deforming the potential right cylinders touching each other at their six tangent points into right hexagonal prisms. Occasionally, defects in the chaotic column selection process would result in some prisms of polygons with other numbers of sides, such as 4 or 5. This is just what we see in mud flats, the surface of the sun, and many other natural phenomena involving extended, approximately planar convection. This is my opinion, not published research. Therefore, it cannot be included in the article. Could someone who is familiar with the literature please consider providing citations and integrating the above into the article? Thanks, [[User:David spector|David]] ([[User talk:David spector|talk]]) 19:33, 29 August 2008 (UTC) :I second that ! Was surprised not to see links both ways. :[http://www.google.com/search?q=%22B%C3%A9nard+cells%22+%22giant%27s+causeway%22+OR+%22basalt+columns%22 Google] only finds 6 items linking &quot;Bénard cells&quot; to &quot;giant's causeway&quot; or &quot;basalt columns&quot;. Maybe we're wrong ? Or are Geologists and Physicists just not talking to each other ? :I [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Rocks_and_minerals#Help_needed_please|suggested]] the shapes might differentiate the mechanism of formation: ::Main difference is mud cracking is a surface phenomenon, but Benard cells go all the way through, like lettering in seaside [[Rock (confectionery)|rock]] ! The cracks have zero width, and tend to curve into part-circles. Mud tends to crack into straight-edged polygons, instead. Tension cracks will fork, and produce different-sized flakes, whereas convection cell boundaries will not have ends, and will form cells of similar sizes. Two other combinations of cell are notable: bisected circles (screw-head) and near-perfect circles surrounded by six or seven others with radial boundaries (flower-petals). Both fit convection better than tension cracking. :Interesting you link Benard Cells to mud cracking ! I had considered that to be an entirely different case. Maybe both mechanisms work together ? Paint cracking on a vertical surface can show a similar hexagonal pattern, but is homogeneous - or do you get horizontal-axis cells due to solvent evaporation instead of convection ? :You can sometimes see them in pans of water or chip-frying oil during heating ... :--[[Special:Contributions/195.137.93.171|195.137.93.171]] ([[User talk:195.137.93.171|talk]]) 23:25, 12 September 2008 (UTC) :--thanks--: &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/193.229.146.4|193.229.146.4]] ([[User talk:193.229.146.4|talk]]) 12:03, 18 November 2008 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; == Coordinates == Please note that the coordinates in this article need fixing as: 55deg 14' 28'' N 6 deg 30' 43'' W This being the centre of the Grand Causeway Current co-ordinates refer to Port na Pleaskin some 2km away. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/86.148.188.137|86.148.188.137]] ([[User talk:86.148.188.137|talk]]) 01:15, 21 December 2008 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt;&lt;!-- signature added by User:Fattonyni --&gt; * I've altered the coordinates accordingly -- not to those given above, but to [http://stable.toolserver.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=Giant%27s_Causeway&amp;params=55_14_27_N_6_30_42_W_type:landmark_region:GB 55°14′27″N 6°30′42″W] which appears to more accurately point to the main causeway (check link). [[User:Fattonyni|Fattonyni]] ([[User talk:Fattonyni|talk]]) 16:39, 30 January 2009 (UTC) == Geobox/type/nature == I've swapped the UNESCO World Heritage infobox for a {{[[Template:Geobox/type/nature|Geobox]]}} which incorporates the UNESCO information as a section. I've kept the original infobox (commented out) though, in case anyone takes issue with this edit. Any thoughts? [[User:Fattonyni|Fattonyni]] ([[User talk:Fattonyni|talk]]) 16:39, 30 January 2009 (UTC) == Similar structures: bulleted or prose? == After I reverted the most recent change of this I realised there had already been a number of swaps of format prior to my edit -- so I thought I would ask for a consensus: Should the list of similar structures be in bulleted or prose form? State your view below. * '''Bulleted''' - it is far more legible and well-seated in Wikipedia's standard formatting. I also find it neater. [[User:Fattonyni|Fattonyni]] ([[User talk:Fattonyni|talk]]) 01:37, 12 March 2009 (UTC) ::Revise to '''Prose, summarise, move down''' as per Guliolopez's idea (below) – This sounds like a good solution -- I agree that not all of the instances need to be mentioned in the list; perhaps just 3-4 of the most notable ones. This would make the prose much more legible and tidy, and avoid it having too much impact on the overall article. [[User:Fattonyni|Fattonyni]] ([[User talk:Fattonyni|talk]]) 10:45, 13 March 2009 (UTC) * '''Prose, summarise, move down''' - This article is about the Giant's Causeway. Not about sequential fragmentation or quasihexagona columnar structures in general. The advantage of the previous prose was that it was &quot;low impact&quot; to the main intent. This new and extensive list is too long and impactful given the intent of the article. It should be summarised and moved down to sit AFTER everything that deals with the actual subject. I believe it should be prose and deal with a few similar key structures. Not every instance. If it remains a bulleted list, it should be treated as almost like a &quot;see also&quot; section. Which is effectively what it is. [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] ([[User talk:Guliolopez|talk]]) 10:37, 12 March 2009 (UTC) *'''Prose''' - I'm not saying the prose version is absolutely fantastic at the moment, but bullet points look amateurish. The prose does need to be altered but it must stay as prose and not as bullet points. [[User:Speedboy Salesman|Speedboy Salesman]] ([[User talk:Speedboy Salesman|talk]]) 18:36, 12 March 2009 (UTC) ::OK. It seems that there was apparent consensus in the above, so I've gone ahead and restored the prose formatting. I also moved it down below the &quot;features&quot; section. I also went ahead and summarised the list - removing those which didn't have a mention in an article of their own, or significant coverage in a related article. (I did this on the basis that this article ISN'T a &quot;list of basalt column structures around the world&quot;. And shouldn't become one.) [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] ([[User talk:Guliolopez|talk]]) 14:56, 30 March 2009 (UTC) =='Worth seeing but not worth going to see'== Was it Samuel Johnson who said this about Giant's Causeway. Does that merit a mention on the page somewhere? [[User:Martyn Smith|Martyn Smith]] ([[User talk:Martyn Smith|talk]]) 15:23, 9 December 2009 (UTC) == Northern Ireland is a country == There seems to be a propensity by some to revert constructive edits relating to the Giants Causeway's location within Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is a country just like Scotland, England, Wales and off-course the Republic of Ireland. If you don't believe me check out Wikipedia at [[Northern Ireland]] and read it for yourself. I'll give you a clue...it's in the first sentence of the first paragraph! States something about it being a country!! --[[Special:Contributions/84.93.157.59|84.93.157.59]] ([[User talk:84.93.157.59|talk]]) 14:12, 22 September 2010 (UTC) :Absolutely. In just about every other article NI is described as the country - which it quite clearly is. NI is not a region. The correct usage here should be Country = Northern Ireland, State = United Kingdom. I'll see if I can change it. I cannot imagine why anyone would support the current version. [[User:LevenBoy|LevenBoy]] ([[User talk:LevenBoy|talk]]) 12:22, 24 September 2010 (UTC) Great work LevenBoy. The edit was a complete joke. I think there is a clique or one person with multiple accounts who is intent on erasing everything that is Northern Ireland.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 14:30, 24 September 2010 (UTC) :It is not a country according to UNESCO, and seeing as you are using a World Heritage infobox it follows their standard. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 15:14, 24 September 2010 (UTC) ::You are talking total bullshit and I've reverted your vandalism - and that is what it is. If you revert again I'll take it to AN/I. [[User:LevenBoy|LevenBoy]] ([[User talk:LevenBoy|talk]]) 15:34, 24 September 2010 (UTC) Where on the website does it say that Northern Ireland is not a country? This is not the place for this discussion. I suggest you raise the issue at the Northern Ireland Wikipedia page. Good luck :) .[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 15:21, 24 September 2010 (UTC) # &quot;One specific problem - in both general and particular senses - is to know what to call Northern Ireland itself: in the general sense, it is not a country, or a province, or a state - although some refer to it contemptuously as a statelet: the least controversial word appears to be jurisdiction, but this might change.&quot; - S. Dunn and H. Dawson, 2000, An Alphabetical Listing of Word, Name and Place in Northern Ireland and the Living Language of Conflict, Edwin Mellen Press: Lampeter # &quot;Next - what noun is appropriate to Northern Ireland? 'Province' won't do since one-third of the province is on the wrong side of the border. 'State' implies more self-determination than Northern Ireland has ever had and 'country' or 'nation' are blatantly absurd. 'Colony' has overtones that would be resented by both communities and 'statelet' sounds too patronizing, though outsiders might consider it more precise than anything else; so one is left with the unsatisfactory word 'region'.&quot; - D. Murphy, 1979, A Place Apart, Penguin Books: London # &quot;Although a seat of government, strictly speaking Belfast is not a 'capital' since Northern Ireland is not a 'country', at least not in the same sense that England, Scotland and Wales are 'countries'.&quot; - J Morrill, 2004, The promotion of knowledge: lectures to mark the Centenary of the British Academy 1992-2002, Oxford University Press: Oxford # &quot;Not a country in itself, Northern Ireland consists of six of the thirty-two original counties of Ireland, all part of the section of that island historically known as Ulster.&quot; - J V Til, 2008, Breaching Derry's walls: the quest for a lasting peace in Northern Ireland, University Press of America # &quot;Northern Ireland is not a country in itself, but a small fragment torn from the living body of Ireland where now the last act of its long struggle for independence is being played out.&quot; - W V Shannon, Northern Ireland and America's Responsibility in K M. Cahill (ed), 1984, The American Irish revival: a decade of the Recorder, 1974-1983, Associated Faculty Press # &quot;Northern Ireland (though of course not a country) was the only other place where terrorism can be said to have achieved a comparable social impact.&quot; - M Crenshaw, 1985, An Organizational Approach to the Analysis of Political Terrorism in Orbis, 29 (3) # &quot;The study compare attitudes in Belgium, Denmark, Spain, France, the UK, Holland, Ireland, Italy and West Germany. It also includes Northern Ireland, which of course is not a country.&quot; - P Kurzer, 2001, Markets and moral regulation: cultural change in the European Union, Cambridge University Press: Cambridge # &quot;As I see it, I'm an Irish Unionist. I'm Irish, that's my race if you like. My identify is British, because that it the way I have been brought up, and I identify with Britain and there are historical bonds, psychological bonds, emotional bonds, all the rest of it you know. ... Bit to talk of independence in Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland is not a country, Northern Ireland is a province of Ireland and it is a province in the UK and I think that the notion of a national identity or group identity or racial identity or cultural identity here is a nonsense.&quot; - Michael McGimpsey quoted in F. Cochrane, 2001, Unionist politics and the politics of Unionism since the Anglo-Irish Agreement, Cork University Press: Cork # &quot;Moreover, Northern Ireland is a province, not a country. Even before direct rule, many of the decisions affecting the economy, labour law, and wage bargaining were in reality taken in London, thereby diminishing the importance of local control.&quot; A Aughey, 1996, Duncan Morrow, Northern Ireland Politics, Longmon: London :There you go, ample evidence that claiming Northern Ireland is a country is not neutral. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 16:00, 24 September 2010 (UTC) Why do you not take this argument to the Northern Ireland Wikipedia page? Northern Ireland is a country within a soverign state.FACT![[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 16:09, 24 September 2010 (UTC) :Are you really going to dispute an article form Cambridge University Press? Bravo O Fenian for finding these wide variety of credible references. --[[User:NorthernCounties|NorthernCounties]] ([[User talk:NorthernCounties|talk]]) 16:19, 24 September 2010 (UTC) ::Indeed. There is no need for me to go to any other article, since first of all Wikipedia cannot source itself, and secondly Northern Ireland is not described there using the bare descriptor &quot;country&quot;, but as a &quot;county of the United Kingdom&quot;, which is a different thing entirely. I also refer you back to the UNESCO list which lists sites by country, and Northern Ireland does not appear on the list only the United Kingdom. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 16:22, 24 September 2010 (UTC) ::I would also add that this is not a change I have implemented, it has said United Kingdom for ages and ages, before [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Giant%27s_Causeway&amp;action=historysubmit&amp;diff=384756069&amp;oldid=384628954 this edit], which the IP then tried making again, then the baton was taken up by The Maiden City and other editors after him. Having the country as United Kingdom (which is a country) is the stable version, unlike having the country as Northern Ireland (which is not a country). [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 16:44, 24 September 2010 (UTC) Agree with O Fenian as stated above describing Northern Ireland as a country is not neutral, and also stated above UNESCO groups by country and that is United Kingdom not NI. [[User:Mo ainm|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#B22222;font-family:serif;text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;&quot;&gt;'''''Mo ainm'''''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Mo ainm|&lt;span style=&quot;color:black;font-family:cursive;font-size:80%&quot;&gt;~Talk&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:12, 24 September 2010 (UTC) * Wait, what? Are we just disregarding every other article on Wikipedia that comments on this? Northern Ireland, by every other article related to the topic that i've seen on Wikipedia, is labeled as a country. Like [[Countries of the United Kingdom|this]], for example. &lt;font color=&quot;silver&quot;&gt;[[User:Silver seren|Silver]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk:Silver seren|seren]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:08, 25 September 2010 (UTC) : It is neutral to describe Northern Ireland as a country, that is what is done on many articles and it is reliably sourced including by Her Majesty's Government. What is put in the infobox depends on the limitations of the infobox. It should say UK + NI, if the only way to do that is with Country: UK, Reigion: NI then i support the status quo. If it is possible to change the field titles to say something like Sovereign State: United Kingdom. Country: Northern Ireland. Then i will support that. Like the infobox used at [[Manchester]]. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 17:20, 25 September 2010 (UTC) ::I second BW's proposal. The sources that have been brought up here (while good job in finding them) appear to be in a minority as [[Talk:United Kingdom|this]] does mention in FAQ's what counts as a country within the UK. [[User:The C of E|The C of E. God Save The Queen!]] ([[User talk:The C of E|talk]]) 09:36, 27 September 2010 (UTC) :::I also agree with BW proposal. Northern Ireland will soon be competing in the [[Commonwealth Games]] [http://www.thecgf.com/countries/country_index.asp] as a country. Good on them. --[[Special:Contributions/87.113.88.49|87.113.88.49]] ([[User talk:87.113.88.49|talk]]) 10:44, 27 September 2010 (UTC) ::::They say the Isle of Man is a country too... [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 11:09, 27 September 2010 (UTC) I would refer editors to [[Talk:Northern_Ireland/Archive_8#&quot;Country&quot; (no doubt discussed before)]] to see how [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Northern_Ireland&amp;oldid=321136407 this] became the current wording of the Northern Ireland article. The first post is worth reading especially, it says &quot;It is disenginious, misleading, non-neutral (and undue weight) to so baldly state that Northern Ireland is a &quot;country&quot; when the same thing can be expressed by simply stating that it is a &quot;part of the United Kingdom&quot;. (Reminder: the current version says that Northern Ireland is both a &quot;country&quot; and a &quot;part of the United Kingdom&quot; as if they are two distinct facts.) Northern Ireland is a part of the United Kingdom, that is simple and unambigious. But to say that Northern Ireland is a &quot;country&quot; (without at the least a qualification of what is meant) is false on very many levels and deeply misleading&quot;. Academic sources have been provided that reject the very idea of Northern Ireland being a country, and it would be a major breach of neutral point-of-view to ignore them and simply label Northern Ireland a &quot;country&quot; in this article. I do not see why people are so intent on claiming the Giant's Causeway is not in a country called the United Kingdom, which is not disputed as being so. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 11:09, 27 September 2010 (UTC) : Well i partly agree with you. I would oppose simply listing Northern Ireland as country without any mention of the United Kingdom. However if it was possible to say Sovereign state: United Kingdom. Constituent Country: Northern Ireland, we should do that as a compromise. Reliable sources say Northern Ireland is a country. Id rather the UK was just considered a country, but they are considered 4 countries of the United Kingdom. It is not unacceptable to say Northern Ireland is a country. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 11:14, 27 September 2010 (UTC) : We could always just say Country: Northern Ireland (United Kingdom). As another compromise. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 11:15, 27 September 2010 (UTC) : {{Geobox|Protected Area &lt;!-- *** Heading *** --&gt; | name = Giant's Causeway and Causeway Coast | native_name = | other_name = | category = &lt;!-- *** Image *** --&gt; | image = Causeway-code poet-4.jpg | image_caption = | image_size = 300px &lt;!-- *** Country *** --&gt; | country = [[Northern Ireland]] (United Kingdom) | country_flag = | state = | region = | district = [[County Antrim]] | municipality = [[Moyle District Council|Moyle]]}} : So it would look like this. That way we do not call Northern Ireland a region which i think is what people are concerned about. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 11:18, 27 September 2010 (UTC) The [[Isle of Man]] is a self-governing [[Crown Dependencies|British Crown Dependency]], it is not a country. Northern Ireland is however a country within the United Kingdom. I would like to see them call Scotland a Region? I agree with you BW, time to change Region to Country as it should be.--[[Special:Contributions/87.113.88.49|87.113.88.49]] ([[User talk:87.113.88.49|talk]]) 13:20, 27 September 2010 (UTC) I would like to add my 2 cents. I think it should be 'Country-Northern Ireland, Sovereign State-United Kingdom'. Aside from that I think this should be raised at the discussion forum of the Northern Ireland WP rather than go through every town and place in Northern Ireland with a WP and has Northern Ireland listed as a country.[[User:Pilgrimsquest|Pilgrimsquest]] ([[User talk:Pilgrimsquest|talk]]) 14:58, 27 September 2010 (UTC) : I dont think the template allows Sovereign state to be put. How do you feel about the example &gt;&gt;&gt; [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 15:01, 27 September 2010 (UTC) : No matter, i suspect you wont be able to respond soon. lol [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 15:09, 27 September 2010 (UTC) ::While it excludes the significant, if not majority, viewpoint that Northern Ireland is not a country, there is little prospect of consensus for change. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 15:10, 27 September 2010 (UTC) ::: Northern Ireland is accepted as a country on wikipedia. Reliable sources at [[Countries of the United Kingdom]] show this. What is inaccurate about changing it to say Northern Ireland (United Kingdom) in the country field. That addresses the concern about stating region - Northern Ireland. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 15:51, 27 September 2010 (UTC) ::::No, it is not. I suggest looking at the links I provided and the sources. You are not presenting a single point-of-view as fact in the face of evidence that disputes that point-of-view. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 18:22, 27 September 2010 (UTC) ::::: What is the problem with the proposal to put Northern Ireland (United Kingdom)? in the country field. That addresses concerns about NI being described as a region that some have. Northern Ireland is described as a country of the UK on wikipedia, this is reliably sourced. So there is nothing incorrect about saying it. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 18:45, 27 September 2010 (UTC) I think it is best that if O Fenian and friends are so easily offended, I think we should just remove Geography altogether and just say 'Somewhere in the Northern Hemisphere'. Northern Ireland is a country and to ignore the facts and the majority view on Wikipedia purely to satisfy a few does not make sense.[[User:Pilgrimsquest|Pilgrimsquest]] ([[User talk:Pilgrimsquest|talk]]) 15:18, 27 September 2010 (UTC) :What friends of O Fenian have you encountered? Should we use check user on your account? Or would it also be inaccurate? --[[User:NorthernCounties|NorthernCounties]] ([[User talk:NorthernCounties|talk]]) 15:24, 27 September 2010 (UTC) ::[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ASockpuppet_investigations%2FThe_Maiden_City&amp;action=historysubmit&amp;diff=387331474&amp;oldid=387331367 Already done]. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 15:26, 27 September 2010 (UTC) :::I had assumed it was to good to be true when Wikipedia was quiet this weekend, I shall wait in the shadows until further socks undoubtly raise their heads. Well done getting that one sorted quickly --[[User:NorthernCounties|NorthernCounties]] ([[User talk:NorthernCounties|talk]]) 15:32, 27 September 2010 (UTC) So what are we going to do about this? [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 11:10, 28 September 2010 (UTC) :I think following the template above would be the best decision, since it lists Northern Ireland properly as a country, but then clarifies that it is still a part of the United Kingdom. &lt;font color=&quot;silver&quot;&gt;[[User:Silver seren|Silver]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk:Silver seren|seren]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:01, 28 September 2010 (UTC) ::As O Fenian and NorthernCounties have pointed out, calling Northern Ireland a ''country'' is inaccurate and controversial. However, the term ''country'' itself is ambiguous. The simple solution would be to use the ''location'' field and have ::&lt;code&gt;State: United Kingdom&lt;/code&gt; ::&lt;code&gt;Location: County Antrim, Northern Ireland&lt;/code&gt; ::I think this argument has shown that the [[Template:Geobox/type/nature|template itself]] needs to be changed; since ''country'' is ambiguous and not every state is divided into ''regions, districts'' or ''municipalities''. Thoughts? [[User:Asarlaí|~Asarlaí]] 15:02, 28 September 2010 (UTC) :::If we could just add in a Sovereign State section higher than Country, that would work fine. But Country is still the correct term, regardless of controversy, otherwise we wouldn't have [[Countries of the United Kingdom|this]] article. &lt;font color=&quot;silver&quot;&gt;[[User:Silver seren|Silver]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk:Silver seren|seren]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:18, 28 September 2010 (UTC) ::::In aid to arrive at a conclusion, I would support changing the [[Template:Geobox/type/nature|template]]. Or even something along the lines of what is present [[Birmingham|here]]. Where it includes '''Sovereign State,''' '''Constituent Country,''' '''County'''. --[[User:NorthernCounties|NorthernCounties]] ([[User talk:NorthernCounties|talk]]) 15:20, 28 September 2010 (UTC) :::::Yeah, we should steal the format from that template. &lt;font color=&quot;silver&quot;&gt;[[User:Silver seren|Silver]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk:Silver seren|seren]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:24, 28 September 2010 (UTC) ::::::Yeah, you would be correct Asarlaí. And no doubt the same debate arose around the infobox's which concerned English Cities. This option appears to possibly satisfy all those concerned. --[[User:NorthernCounties|NorthernCounties]] ([[User talk:NorthernCounties|talk]]) 15:35, 28 September 2010 (UTC) ::::::: Changing it to include fields : Sovereign State and Constituent Country seems to be a good way of resolving this. Is it simple to change the template to include those extra optional fields? [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 15:40, 28 September 2010 (UTC) Having looked at a lot of pages recently on Northern Ireland for my initial research alot of the pages say Sovereign State: UK, Country: Northern Ireland. So why the fuss over the Giant's Causeway? I would imagine most people know the ingredients of the UK if they don't they can just read the UK WP. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/147.114.44.201|147.114.44.201]] ([[User talk:147.114.44.201|talk]]) 09:15, 29 September 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; BritishWatcher, I don't think everyone is in agreement to change anything? Having scanned the thread there is some compelling sources that suggest that Northern Ireland isn't a country but probably as many if not more suggesting it is a country. In absence of an agreement should the page not just be changed to be consistent with every other page with a Northern Topic ie Sovereign State:UK, Country: NI? I think someone mentioned before that this not the page either to discuss this given that it is such a large topic being discussed solely by those who monitor this page. Aside from this I am not sure how Northern Ireland being called a country could be deemed offensive or non-neutral?[[User:Dame edna uk|Dame edna uk]] ([[User talk:Dame edna uk|talk]]) 08:49, 1 October 2010 (UTC) : I thought the idea of putting Sovereign state: UK, Constituent country: Northern Ireland, in the infobox as suggested above was the best option dealing with concerns on both sides. I tried changing the infobox, but it didnt work. Its in line with some of the templates like at [[Manchester]]. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 12:10, 3 October 2010 (UTC) Is this page going to be changed? It still says country: 'United Kingdon' when it should say Northern Ireland.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 08:38, 21 October 2010 (UTC) :Northern Ireland is not a country. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 08:50, 21 October 2010 (UTC) United Kingdom isnt a country. so where does that leave us? Could we just remove United Kingdom and Northern Ireland and just say some in the Northern Hemisphere? or would that too be deemed offensive and non-neutral[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 09:11, 21 October 2010 (UTC) : The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a country. Northern Ireland is a country of the United Kingdom. The proposed solution about changing the template was a good idea, sadly the template is mind boggling and ive no clue how to change it without messing everything up. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 09:42, 21 October 2010 (UTC) In keeping with the Northern Ireland wikipedia page, Northern Ireland is a country. It has been agreed there. So all you need to do is change Country to Northern Ireland and remove region or you can change region to sovereign state and include UK.simples.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 09:49, 21 October 2010 (UTC) : This is a copy of the template used [[User:BritishWatcher/geobox]]. It does not look very simple to add fields like sovereign state and constituent country. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 09:54, 21 October 2010 (UTC) just copy part of the template from another page.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 09:57, 21 October 2010 (UTC) :&quot;In keeping with the Northern Ireland wikipedia page, Northern Ireland is a country&quot;, wrong. Wikipedia cannot source itself. Northern Ireland is not a country, since its description as such is disputed by many reliable sources. There is no official legal designation of what Northern Ireland actually is by the British government. You cannot exclude sources because you dislike what they have to say in order to present opinion as fact. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 16:53, 21 October 2010 (UTC) Well given that the content of the Northern Ireland Wikipedia page is based on numerous reliable sources, i'd say it is safe to assume that those same sources can be applied to this page aswell. Its a matter of consistency aswell. The consensus on the Northern Ireland WP is that it is a country and that being the case this consensus should filter down through all Northern Ireland related articles.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 17:05, 21 October 2010 (UTC) : Saying Sovereign state: United Kingdom. Constituent country: Northern Ireland in the infobox is the best compromise, but it is not simple to change the template, you cant just copy and paste something. There is line after line saying country there, ive no idea where to insert them. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 18:17, 21 October 2010 (UTC) BritishWatcher, what is the difference between saying Country and Constituent Country? Why is this page treated differently to every other page on Northern Ireland. If you go to any Northern Ireland Town page, the template includes Sovereign State and Country. Just change country to Northern Ireland and remove region.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 09:12, 22 October 2010 (UTC) If there are no objections I will edit this page to say ''Country:Northern Ireland'' and ''Sovereign State:United Kingdom'' in keeping with Infobox UK place template and other Northern Ireland related pages. Will leave it 24hrs before test edit.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 09:57, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Factocop, have you not read the above discussion? There is NO consensus for you to do the proposed edit so I suggest you leave it until a consensus is reached. [[User:Bjmullan|Bjmullan]] ([[User talk:Bjmullan|talk]]) 10:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::To describe Northern Ireland as a country is inherently point-of-view. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 10:09, 2 November 2010 (UTC) I have said before that this is hardly the place to discuss whether Northern Ireland is a country or not. That question should be discussed at a much larger forum. Would you agree?[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 10:13, 2 November 2010 (UTC) I don't see why this page should be different to other Northern Ireland related WP? If you look at any Northern Ireland town page they all say ''Country:Northern Ireland'' and ''Sovereign State:United Kingdom'' so until consensus is reached at a much larger forum, I think this page should be consistent with every other page relating to Northern Ireland. If there are no further objections then, I will edit the page to be consistent with other Northern Ireland related pages.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 10:24, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :No consensus so please leave as per my comments above. [[User:Bjmullan|Bjmullan]] ([[User talk:Bjmullan|talk]]) 10:59, 2 November 2010 (UTC) When you say consensus...did you raise this issue at a larger forum? I have said before, and you have chosen to ignore this point already but this issue affects all Northern Ireland related WP so this is obviously not the correct discussion page for this. This page will be changed to be in line with other Northern Ireland related articles until a consensus has been reached at a larger arena. Any further objections?[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 11:14, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :I see you are still not getting the indenting thing, it is very useful and all other editor would appreciate if you would comply with the norm. As for your question yes there is still objection as there isn't any consensus and you just repeating your statement doesn't change anything. [[User:Bjmullan|Bjmullan]] ([[User talk:Bjmullan|talk]]) 11:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::Have you raised this discussion at a larger forum? Why should this page be different from every other page relating to Northern Ireland? If you can not answer these questions, I will assume no objections to the change.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 11:34, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::As I have already pointed out this morning I am NOT your question and answer boy. Of course this issues is being discussed elsewhere why don't you go and find it. [[User:Bjmullan|Bjmullan]] ([[User talk:Bjmullan|talk]]) 12:18, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::: Thats the thing, I couldnt find it. If this is being discussed else where and consensus has not been met then this page should be changed to be in line with other Northern Ireland related pages. You still didnt answer my questions so ill assume no objection. Last chance....Why should this page be different from every other page relating to Northern Ireland? [[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 12:27, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::::: Hi Factocop. Firstly, I would respectfully point you to the following [[WP:ULTIMATUM|recommendation against declaring an ultimatum]]. It is not in the spirit of consensus to do so, and will only result in problems. Secondly, I would also point out that the UNESCO infobox (as with all other UNESCO infoboxes) refers to the &quot;state party&quot; which is signatory to the convention. This is [http://whc.unesco.org/en/statesparties/ the UK], and not NI. [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] ([[User talk:Guliolopez|talk]]) 13:08, 2 November 2010 (UTC) : I didnt mean it to sound like an ultimatum and Your right its not in the spirit of consensus, but I am not seeking consensus to whether Northern Ireland is a country or not on this page as it is far too small a forum for such a large issue. Bjmullan, has suggested that this issue has been raised elsewhere but cant find it. My notion is that if consenus can not or has not been reached that the page should reflect all other pages on Northern Ireland. I would agree with the UNESCO template. But at present the UNESCO template is not in use. I would be happy to use the template as used at Stone Henge for example.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 13:20, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ok, any objection to using the UNESCO template used at Stone Henge? If not, ill work away.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 15:43, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Is this {{tlx|Infobox World Heritage Site}}? Because this article seems to use it already. The difference between this one and [[Stonehenge]] is that this one uses {{tlx|Geobox}} before {{tlx|Infobox World Heritage Site}}. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 15:53, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :: Hi TFOWR, the problem here lies with certain users do not want to see ''Country:Northern Ireland'' in the infobox. I am guessing they are of a particular political persuasion that does not wish to recognise Northern Ireland as a country. Anyway...If you go to any other page relating to Northern Ireland you find in the infobox ''Country:Northern Ireland'' and ''Sovereign State:United Kingdom''. I would wish to have this page brought into line with other pages in Northern Ireland. Some users wish to argue that Northern Ireland is not a country here, in this very talk page. I am hoping that you would agree that, that argument needs to be brought to a larger forum? Bjmullan suggests that this discussion has already been raised. do you know where? I think until consensus is reached, either the page should be consistent with other Northern Ireland related pages or in line with the stone henge template as this does not include country in the infobox. what do you think?[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 16:23, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::FYI Factocop the UNESCO template doesn't support using NI in the box. It can only have countries recognised by UNESCO there (i.e. UK). [[User:Bjmullan|Bjmullan]] ([[User talk:Bjmullan|talk]]) 16:28, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::Aye, I'm familiar with the dispute, and trying to stay well out of it ;-) I was only querying &quot;adding&quot; the UNESCO template - as it seems to be used already. I suspect I'm missing something, however... are we discussing {{tlx|Infobox World Heritage Site}} or a different template? :::Back to the dispute, the question &quot;where is the wider forum where this is being discussed?&quot; does seem a reasonable one. I don't know the answer. I'd like to know the answer. Bjmullan, if you don't fancy telling Factocop, could you at least tell me?! [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 17:46, 2 November 2010 (UTC) http://erc.unesco.org/portal/UNESCOMemberStates.asp?language=en - Here UNESCO has ''United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'' as a 'member state'. This being the case then the current template is wrong as it should say 'member state:United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' not 'Country:United Kingdom'. Would you be happy with the stone henge template?[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 16:40, 2 November 2010 (UTC) Tried a test, the template supports ''Country:Northern Ireland'' but does not support ''Sovereign State:United Kingdom''. Maybe it only supports ''State Party:United Kingdom' as per the stone henge template?[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 16:47, 2 November 2010 (UTC) 2 more tests, Template supports state:UK and country:NI but does not support state party:United Kingdom. Bj, what did you mean when you said template doesnt support NI in the template?[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 17:04, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :I see you are still struggling with indents. The UNESCO template would not support putting Northern Ireland into the State Party field as only countries can be put there and NI is not a country. Why do you wish to use the UNESCO template? [[User:Bjmullan|Bjmullan]] ([[User talk:Bjmullan|talk]]) 17:34, 2 November 2010 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Giant%27s_Causeway&diff=394396071</id> <title>Talk:Giant's Causeway</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Giant%27s_Causeway&diff=394396071"/> <updated>2010-11-02T15:53:23Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: /* Northern Ireland is a country */ cmt <hr /> <div>{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1= {{WikiProject Northern Ireland|class=B|importance=Top}} {{WikiProject Volcanoes| class=B | importance=Mid}} {{WPCD}} {{WikiProject Ireland|nested= |class=start |importance=mid |attention= |peer-review= |old-peer-review= }} {{WikiProject UK geography|class=Start|importance=high}} }} ==To add== To add: More on geology/formation, legends Is it worth adding in more about the Causeway Coast itself - as the Giant's Causeway itself is part of this much larger UNESCO world heritage site the comprises a great deal of the Antrim Coastline. I notice the coast is mentioned in the fact box but not in the article itself. The Causeway Coast contains a number of related geological features such as the Carrick-A-Rede rope-bridge and many historical sites such as Dunluce Castle. Does an article about the Causeway Coast already exist? I cannot find one but maybe I am being blind. It could be argued that the Causeway Coast deserves an article in and of itself separate to the Giant's Causeway, but I would be concerned that such an article would belong in wikitravel as it is a Giant Tourist Trap. Any ideas? I'll put in a much needed geology section into this article in next few weeks, with a better description of the formation of columnar jointing and an overview of the geological setting in which it was formed etc. etc. etc. [[User:Fossiliferous|Fossiliferous]] 17:54, 28 September 2007 (UTC) ==Height== Notice: About the height of collumns, 12 metres is not 100 feet, 12 metres is about 40 feet, or, 100 feet is about 30 metres, so one of the values is correct, and the other one should be corrected. == Merge == I've added a proposal to merge [[Giant's Causeway Legend]] into this article. [[User:Peyna|Peyna]] 02:18, 3 December 2005 (UTC) :'''MERGE''' - It certainly should be. Neither this article nor that is developed enough to justify the two articles, nor is there the potential for the legend article to reach the sort of threshold required for separation. [[User:Bastin8|Bastin8]] 18:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC) :'''MERGE''' - Should be merged. Simply suggest new '''Legend''' sub-section in the [[Giant's Causeway]] article. [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] 12:59, 14 February 2006 (UTC) :'''Alternative''' There already is information in the Causeway article about the legend but only a mention in the [[Fionn mac Cumhail]] article, perheps it should be merged there? [[User:SeanMack|SeanMack]] 13:21, 14 February 2006 (UTC) ::Any final thoughts on this? If no final updates, will likely merge the content from the [[Giant's Causeway Legend]] article into the existing ''legend'' section in this article, add a summary reference to the [[Fionn mac Cumhail]] article, and redirect the ''Giant's Causeway Legend'' entry to the this (main) ''Giant's Causeway'' article... [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] 18:38, 3 March 2006 (UTC) :'''MERGE''' Too many themes beloging together are split up into several article--[[User:Hun2|Hun2]] 16:38, 12 March 2006 (UTC) :No brainer merge, really. [[Giant's Causeway Legend]] is not much more than a stub, and this article could do with expansion. Furthermore with this article expanded you could work the images into the text better and enlarge them. Right now you're ''wasting'' your images quite frankly. --[[User:Kingboyk|kingboyk]] 05:04, 13 March 2006 (UTC) '''Done.''' --[[User:Setanta747|Mal]] 23:45, 4 April 2006 (UTC) :'''MERGE''' This could cause less confusion. == Results of merger == I merged the Legend article into this one, though that has left some repeated information. I might get around to it, but I left a copyedit tag in case anyone else wants to try it in the meantime. I've already done a fair bit of work to it.. and please note that I have copied information from the website directly into the article as a comment, which might help other editors. I will delete this info once I feel all the info has been used - please leave it intact for now. --[[User:Setanta747|Mal]] 23:44, 4 April 2006 (UTC) :I have heard tell that the legend attached to the Giants Causeway is a relatively recent development (ie less than 400 years old) and that it was made up (or widely publicized) to attract the attention of the Romantics and the Victorian naturalists. Is there any reliable information concerning the development, age and origins of the myth? [[User:Amatire|Ammi]] 21:03, 5 November 2006 (UTC) ==Website info== {{user|Setanta747}} pasted the Giant's Causeway web site into the article as a comment below the main text. I have deleted it, as I deleted it when I copyedited the article a couple of days ago. I included everything from the web site in the article that I thought was appropriate for an encyclopedia. Text like &quot;For centuries countless visitors have marvelled at the majesty and mystery of the Giants Causeway&quot; is wonderful for a promotional web site but not appropriate for an encyclopedia. Neither is information on visitor center amenities or driving directions. The article links to the official web site so there is a clear way for people who are interested in visiting to find out more. Also there is the possibilty of copyright problems. In the US, information published by the government is in the public domain, but I don't know if that pertains to the UK, or if the National Trust is considered part of the government for purposes of copyright or considered a private agency. At this point I think that all the site details from the web site that belong in an encyclopedia are there. [[User:Thatcher131|Thatcher131]] 22:22, 16 April 2006 (UTC) : Fair enough Thatcher - I hadn't considered that you'd gone through it and copyedited appropriate info from it. If that is the case then its usefulness has now ended. As for copyright - the information wasn't published as such, which is specifically why I had added it as a comment. --[[User:Setanta747|Mal]] 08:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC) == Auto Peer Review == The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic [[User:AndyZ/peerreviewer.js|javascript program]], and might not be applicable for the article in question. *Per [[WP:CONTEXT]] and [[WP:MOSDATE]], months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide [[WP:CONTEXT|context]] for the article. *Per [[WP:MOSNUM#Units of measurement|WP:MOSNUM]], there should be a non-breaking space - &lt;code&gt;&amp;amp;nbsp;&lt;/code&gt; between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of ''18mm'', use ''18&amp;nbsp;mm'', which when you are editing the page, should look like: &lt;tt&gt;18&amp;amp;nbsp;mm&lt;/tt&gt;.&lt;ref name=&quot;nbsp&quot;&gt;See footnote&lt;/ref&gt; *Per [[WP:MOSNUM]], please spell out source units of measurements in text; for example, ''&quot;the Moon is 380,000 kilometres (240,000 mi) from Earth''.&lt;ref name=&quot;spellnum&quot;&gt;See footnote&lt;/ref&gt; *Please alphabetize the {{{1|[[WP:IL|interlanguage links]]}}}.&lt;ref name=&quot;alpha&quot;&gt;See footnote&lt;/ref&gt; *This article is a bit too short, and therefore may not be as comprehensive as [[WP:WIAFA]] critera 2(b) is looking for. Please see if anything can be expanded upon. {{{1|}}} *There are a few occurrences of [[weasel word]]s in this article- please observe [[WP:AWT]]. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view. {{#if:''allege''|For example, **''allege''}}{{#if:{{{2|}}}|**{{{2}}}}}{{#if:{{{3|}}}|**{{{3}}}}}{{#if:{{{4|}}}|**{{{4}}}}}{{#if:{{{5|}}}|**{{{5}}}}}{{#if:{{{6|}}}|**{{{6}}}}} {{#if:''allege''|**might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper [[WP:FOOTNOTE|citations]] (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please &lt;strike&gt;strike&lt;/strike&gt; this comment).}}&lt;ref name=&quot;awt&quot;&gt;See footnote&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;!--This javascript cannot determine if a citation is provided; if all weasel terms are covered by citations, please strike this--&gt; *Watch for [[User:Tony1/How_to_satisfy_Criterion_2a#Redundancy|redundancies]] that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's [[User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 2a: redundancy exercises|redundancy exercises]].) **Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “&lt;font color='red'&gt;&lt;s&gt;All&lt;/s&gt;&lt;/font&gt; pigs are pink, so we thought of &lt;font color='red'&gt;&lt;s&gt;a number of&lt;/s&gt;&lt;/font&gt; ways to turn them green.” *Please provide citations for all of the &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{fact}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;s. *Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that the it exemplifies some of [[WP:WIAFA|Wikipedia's best work]]. See also [[User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 2a]]. {{#if:{{{1|}}}|For example, **{{{1}}}}}{{#if:{{{2|}}}|**{{{2}}}}}{{#if:{{{3|}}}|**{{{3}}}}}{{#if:{{{4|}}}|**{{{4}}}}}{{#if:{{{5|}}}|**{{{5}}}}}{{#if:{{{6|}}}|**{{{6}}}}}{{#if:{{{1|}}}|**and perhaps other copyediting fixes for grammar/spelling are needed.}}&lt;ref name=&quot;copyedit&quot;&gt;See footnote&lt;/ref&gt; You may wish to browse through [[User:AndyZ/Suggestions]] for further ideas. Thanks, [[User:Setanta747|Mal]] 08:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC) Good Job on the page. == World Heritage Site == World Heritage site of Ireland?! Ireland is what the Republic calls itself (and is its official name I believe). The Giant's Causeway is in the United Kingdom not Ireland and i've changed the article to reflect this reality. You can't use the word Ireland to refer to something that exists within the United Kingdom because of the words Irish Nationalist connotations.[[User:YourPTR!|YourPTR!]] 04:34, 27 December 2006 (UTC) :Hi. In the context of the template, &quot;Ireland&quot; refers to the island (the geographical entity) rather than the &quot;Republic of Ireland&quot; (the political entity). You may note that there are two templates on the page; one &quot;WH Sites of Ireland&quot;, the other &quot;WH Sites in the UK&quot;. Both are likely valid in context. To engage in a &quot;what the word 'Ireland' means or is assumed to mean&quot; argument in the context of a natural phenomenon (which existed for 63 million years before the first human thought to give it a name or context) is probably not a good path to go down. (Someone[else] likely reverted your edit for this reason) [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] 16:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC) :Given that a causeway exists specifically to join two land masses across a stretch of water, couldn't we consider that one end is in Scotland ? We Scots don't market it as much as the Irish, but basalt columns crop up in many places on our west coast and Hebridean islands - Fingal's cave on Staffa, Kilt Rock on [[Skye]], Howmore to Rubha Ardvule on Uist. If I remember correctly, it is locally known as the Giant's Causeway even in Scotland. It may even have been the last link when the islands divided as the sea lowered in prehistoric times ? Maybe maritime charts would confirm or deny that ? Citation needed ! --[[Special:Contributions/195.137.93.171|195.137.93.171]] ([[User talk:195.137.93.171|talk]]) 02:10, 13 September 2008 (UTC) == Popular culture references / Trivia == The &quot;popular culture references&quot; section here includes some decidely [[WP:NN|NN]] inclusions. While there is [[Wikipedia:&quot;In popular culture&quot; articles|some discussion]] about the value of &quot;popculture&quot; references in general, several of the examples listed here are not notable and read like [[fancruft]] that is not relevant to the context of the article subject. (A lot of the examples represent &quot;throw away&quot; references in books, backdrops for music videos or interviews, or whatever). Unless - for example - the Causeway was a significant theme in a notable work, it probably isn't notable here. Otherwise it seems dubious under [[WP:NOT#INFO]]. I'm going to do some summarising. Beyond that, the section may be worthy or a more complete cull in the longer term. [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] 12:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC) :This section is getting worse. More fancruft, with severely dubious relevance to the topic, continues to be added. (And - in my view - will be so long as the section exists). Are there any comments on the value of this content? Does it give additional context to the topic for the reader? Personally I think that the fact that someone wrote a (B-Side) song in 2003 named after a 50 million year old formation is irrelevant to the formation itself. Would like to confirm some consensus however before a cull here.... [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] 21:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC) ::The WWE and Scooter references are entirely irrelevant. The Cremaster Cycle article doesn't even mention the Causeway, so it can go as well. The Led Zep and Stone Roses album covers probably have the best case for inclusion, they are certainly of interest - the Stone Roses' debut is arguably my favourite all-time album, but I had no idea the Causeway was the background of the album cover until I read this. They are both notable works, but as you said above they are not sufficiently significant themes in them. So cull the lot I say. [[User:Stubacca|&lt;font color = &quot;green&quot;&gt;'''Stu'''&lt;/font&gt;]] [[User talk:Stubacca|&lt;font color = &quot;green&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''’Bout ye!''&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] 09:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC) ====Trivia revisited==== Unless there are other opinions, I'm going to summarise the Trivia section. Again. Since the last review, it has reverted to its long and unwieldy state. (With recently added references to non-notable book covers, throw away refs in Hellboy, the Simpsons, etc). This detail is - in my view - very very weak, of limited encyclopedic value, and represents the type of miscellaneous/random trivia that the [[Wikipedia:Trivia sections|relevant guidelines]] suggest we avoid. As noted before, this formation has been around for millions of years. The fact that it is mentioned fleetingly in a recent feature film, or was on screen for 5 seconds in a Simpsons episode isn't really relevant, and is a &quot;symptom&quot; of the subjects notability, rather than contributing to it. Compare to a &quot;list of films and books the Great Pyramid of Giza is mentioned in&quot; at the foot of that article. It would be ridiculously long and pointless. I may be misreading the guidelines here, so will await any other comments before engaging in some more summarisation (again). [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] ([[User talk:Guliolopez|talk]]) 15:44, 30 March 2009 (UTC) ==History/Geology== I have separated these. However I have one ref. which refers to &quot;slow cooling of the great pool of molten rock,...&quot; I'm nor sure which is correct. Ref. Wilson, H.E.1972. ''Regional Geology of Northern Irelad'' Ministry of Commerce Geologiucal Servay of Northern Ireland, Belfast, Her Majesty's Stationary Office.[[User:Osborne|Osborne]] 08:50, 11 September 2007 (UTC) ==Intrusive or Extrusive== The article seems to say that the origin of the rock is as an intrusive lava.... If it is an intrusive rock, it should be referred to as magma. If extrusive as lava. It is currently geologically incorrect. --[[Special:Contributions/86.145.68.88|86.145.68.88]] ([[User talk:86.145.68.88|talk]]) 19:25, 10 April 2008 (UTC) == Location == where in NI is this? &lt;small&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/203.217.59.87|203.217.59.87]] ([[User talk:203.217.59.87|talk]]) 10:41, 14 June 2008 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :It's on the North East coast in County Antrim. Is mentioned a few times in the article. There is also a coordinates link up the top right. [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] ([[User talk:Guliolopez|talk]]) 17:12, 14 June 2008 (UTC) == Hexagonal prisms in nature == The article states, &quot;While contraction in the vertical direction reduced the flow thickness (without fracturing), horizontal contraction could only be accommodated by cracking throughout the flow.&quot; This empoverished explanation is frequently offered wherever polygonal cracks are described, such as in [http://giantcrystals.strahlen.org/europe/basalt.htm Formation of basalt columns], from the article's External Links section. The only parsimonious, satisfying scientific explanation of the formation of right hexagonal prisms in nature is [[Bénard cells]] (see, for example, [http://www.physics.gatech.edu/schatz/control/benard.html Hexagons: Wave Numbers &amp; Defects]). In the case of the Giant's Causeway, it is easy to imagine convection occurring in liquid basalt lava, immediately prior to cooling. The viscosity of the basalt naturally drags adjacent material upward, as the hotter material rises due to buoyancy. This tends to form adjacent columns of alternately rising and falling material. The vertical motion of convection is, of course, the explanation for why fairly accurate right prisms are usually formed, rather than oblique prisms, pyramids, twisted columns, spirals, or other geometries that are sometimes seen in the laboratory. Imagine a packing of cylindrical convection columns. They would be pushed together (the formation of cylinders would not occur because stable systems alway contract to minimal-energy configurations), deforming the potential right cylinders touching each other at their six tangent points into right hexagonal prisms. Occasionally, defects in the chaotic column selection process would result in some prisms of polygons with other numbers of sides, such as 4 or 5. This is just what we see in mud flats, the surface of the sun, and many other natural phenomena involving extended, approximately planar convection. This is my opinion, not published research. Therefore, it cannot be included in the article. Could someone who is familiar with the literature please consider providing citations and integrating the above into the article? Thanks, [[User:David spector|David]] ([[User talk:David spector|talk]]) 19:33, 29 August 2008 (UTC) :I second that ! Was surprised not to see links both ways. :[http://www.google.com/search?q=%22B%C3%A9nard+cells%22+%22giant%27s+causeway%22+OR+%22basalt+columns%22 Google] only finds 6 items linking &quot;Bénard cells&quot; to &quot;giant's causeway&quot; or &quot;basalt columns&quot;. Maybe we're wrong ? Or are Geologists and Physicists just not talking to each other ? :I [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Rocks_and_minerals#Help_needed_please|suggested]] the shapes might differentiate the mechanism of formation: ::Main difference is mud cracking is a surface phenomenon, but Benard cells go all the way through, like lettering in seaside [[Rock (confectionery)|rock]] ! The cracks have zero width, and tend to curve into part-circles. Mud tends to crack into straight-edged polygons, instead. Tension cracks will fork, and produce different-sized flakes, whereas convection cell boundaries will not have ends, and will form cells of similar sizes. Two other combinations of cell are notable: bisected circles (screw-head) and near-perfect circles surrounded by six or seven others with radial boundaries (flower-petals). Both fit convection better than tension cracking. :Interesting you link Benard Cells to mud cracking ! I had considered that to be an entirely different case. Maybe both mechanisms work together ? Paint cracking on a vertical surface can show a similar hexagonal pattern, but is homogeneous - or do you get horizontal-axis cells due to solvent evaporation instead of convection ? :You can sometimes see them in pans of water or chip-frying oil during heating ... :--[[Special:Contributions/195.137.93.171|195.137.93.171]] ([[User talk:195.137.93.171|talk]]) 23:25, 12 September 2008 (UTC) :--thanks--: &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/193.229.146.4|193.229.146.4]] ([[User talk:193.229.146.4|talk]]) 12:03, 18 November 2008 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; == Coordinates == Please note that the coordinates in this article need fixing as: 55deg 14' 28'' N 6 deg 30' 43'' W This being the centre of the Grand Causeway Current co-ordinates refer to Port na Pleaskin some 2km away. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/86.148.188.137|86.148.188.137]] ([[User talk:86.148.188.137|talk]]) 01:15, 21 December 2008 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt;&lt;!-- signature added by User:Fattonyni --&gt; * I've altered the coordinates accordingly -- not to those given above, but to [http://stable.toolserver.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=Giant%27s_Causeway&amp;params=55_14_27_N_6_30_42_W_type:landmark_region:GB 55°14′27″N 6°30′42″W] which appears to more accurately point to the main causeway (check link). [[User:Fattonyni|Fattonyni]] ([[User talk:Fattonyni|talk]]) 16:39, 30 January 2009 (UTC) == Geobox/type/nature == I've swapped the UNESCO World Heritage infobox for a {{[[Template:Geobox/type/nature|Geobox]]}} which incorporates the UNESCO information as a section. I've kept the original infobox (commented out) though, in case anyone takes issue with this edit. Any thoughts? [[User:Fattonyni|Fattonyni]] ([[User talk:Fattonyni|talk]]) 16:39, 30 January 2009 (UTC) == Similar structures: bulleted or prose? == After I reverted the most recent change of this I realised there had already been a number of swaps of format prior to my edit -- so I thought I would ask for a consensus: Should the list of similar structures be in bulleted or prose form? State your view below. * '''Bulleted''' - it is far more legible and well-seated in Wikipedia's standard formatting. I also find it neater. [[User:Fattonyni|Fattonyni]] ([[User talk:Fattonyni|talk]]) 01:37, 12 March 2009 (UTC) ::Revise to '''Prose, summarise, move down''' as per Guliolopez's idea (below) – This sounds like a good solution -- I agree that not all of the instances need to be mentioned in the list; perhaps just 3-4 of the most notable ones. This would make the prose much more legible and tidy, and avoid it having too much impact on the overall article. [[User:Fattonyni|Fattonyni]] ([[User talk:Fattonyni|talk]]) 10:45, 13 March 2009 (UTC) * '''Prose, summarise, move down''' - This article is about the Giant's Causeway. Not about sequential fragmentation or quasihexagona columnar structures in general. The advantage of the previous prose was that it was &quot;low impact&quot; to the main intent. This new and extensive list is too long and impactful given the intent of the article. It should be summarised and moved down to sit AFTER everything that deals with the actual subject. I believe it should be prose and deal with a few similar key structures. Not every instance. If it remains a bulleted list, it should be treated as almost like a &quot;see also&quot; section. Which is effectively what it is. [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] ([[User talk:Guliolopez|talk]]) 10:37, 12 March 2009 (UTC) *'''Prose''' - I'm not saying the prose version is absolutely fantastic at the moment, but bullet points look amateurish. The prose does need to be altered but it must stay as prose and not as bullet points. [[User:Speedboy Salesman|Speedboy Salesman]] ([[User talk:Speedboy Salesman|talk]]) 18:36, 12 March 2009 (UTC) ::OK. It seems that there was apparent consensus in the above, so I've gone ahead and restored the prose formatting. I also moved it down below the &quot;features&quot; section. I also went ahead and summarised the list - removing those which didn't have a mention in an article of their own, or significant coverage in a related article. (I did this on the basis that this article ISN'T a &quot;list of basalt column structures around the world&quot;. And shouldn't become one.) [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] ([[User talk:Guliolopez|talk]]) 14:56, 30 March 2009 (UTC) =='Worth seeing but not worth going to see'== Was it Samuel Johnson who said this about Giant's Causeway. Does that merit a mention on the page somewhere? [[User:Martyn Smith|Martyn Smith]] ([[User talk:Martyn Smith|talk]]) 15:23, 9 December 2009 (UTC) == Northern Ireland is a country == There seems to be a propensity by some to revert constructive edits relating to the Giants Causeway's location within Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is a country just like Scotland, England, Wales and off-course the Republic of Ireland. If you don't believe me check out Wikipedia at [[Northern Ireland]] and read it for yourself. I'll give you a clue...it's in the first sentence of the first paragraph! States something about it being a country!! --[[Special:Contributions/84.93.157.59|84.93.157.59]] ([[User talk:84.93.157.59|talk]]) 14:12, 22 September 2010 (UTC) :Absolutely. In just about every other article NI is described as the country - which it quite clearly is. NI is not a region. The correct usage here should be Country = Northern Ireland, State = United Kingdom. I'll see if I can change it. I cannot imagine why anyone would support the current version. [[User:LevenBoy|LevenBoy]] ([[User talk:LevenBoy|talk]]) 12:22, 24 September 2010 (UTC) Great work LevenBoy. The edit was a complete joke. I think there is a clique or one person with multiple accounts who is intent on erasing everything that is Northern Ireland.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 14:30, 24 September 2010 (UTC) :It is not a country according to UNESCO, and seeing as you are using a World Heritage infobox it follows their standard. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 15:14, 24 September 2010 (UTC) ::You are talking total bullshit and I've reverted your vandalism - and that is what it is. If you revert again I'll take it to AN/I. [[User:LevenBoy|LevenBoy]] ([[User talk:LevenBoy|talk]]) 15:34, 24 September 2010 (UTC) Where on the website does it say that Northern Ireland is not a country? This is not the place for this discussion. I suggest you raise the issue at the Northern Ireland Wikipedia page. Good luck :) .[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 15:21, 24 September 2010 (UTC) # &quot;One specific problem - in both general and particular senses - is to know what to call Northern Ireland itself: in the general sense, it is not a country, or a province, or a state - although some refer to it contemptuously as a statelet: the least controversial word appears to be jurisdiction, but this might change.&quot; - S. Dunn and H. Dawson, 2000, An Alphabetical Listing of Word, Name and Place in Northern Ireland and the Living Language of Conflict, Edwin Mellen Press: Lampeter # &quot;Next - what noun is appropriate to Northern Ireland? 'Province' won't do since one-third of the province is on the wrong side of the border. 'State' implies more self-determination than Northern Ireland has ever had and 'country' or 'nation' are blatantly absurd. 'Colony' has overtones that would be resented by both communities and 'statelet' sounds too patronizing, though outsiders might consider it more precise than anything else; so one is left with the unsatisfactory word 'region'.&quot; - D. Murphy, 1979, A Place Apart, Penguin Books: London # &quot;Although a seat of government, strictly speaking Belfast is not a 'capital' since Northern Ireland is not a 'country', at least not in the same sense that England, Scotland and Wales are 'countries'.&quot; - J Morrill, 2004, The promotion of knowledge: lectures to mark the Centenary of the British Academy 1992-2002, Oxford University Press: Oxford # &quot;Not a country in itself, Northern Ireland consists of six of the thirty-two original counties of Ireland, all part of the section of that island historically known as Ulster.&quot; - J V Til, 2008, Breaching Derry's walls: the quest for a lasting peace in Northern Ireland, University Press of America # &quot;Northern Ireland is not a country in itself, but a small fragment torn from the living body of Ireland where now the last act of its long struggle for independence is being played out.&quot; - W V Shannon, Northern Ireland and America's Responsibility in K M. Cahill (ed), 1984, The American Irish revival: a decade of the Recorder, 1974-1983, Associated Faculty Press # &quot;Northern Ireland (though of course not a country) was the only other place where terrorism can be said to have achieved a comparable social impact.&quot; - M Crenshaw, 1985, An Organizational Approach to the Analysis of Political Terrorism in Orbis, 29 (3) # &quot;The study compare attitudes in Belgium, Denmark, Spain, France, the UK, Holland, Ireland, Italy and West Germany. It also includes Northern Ireland, which of course is not a country.&quot; - P Kurzer, 2001, Markets and moral regulation: cultural change in the European Union, Cambridge University Press: Cambridge # &quot;As I see it, I'm an Irish Unionist. I'm Irish, that's my race if you like. My identify is British, because that it the way I have been brought up, and I identify with Britain and there are historical bonds, psychological bonds, emotional bonds, all the rest of it you know. ... Bit to talk of independence in Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland is not a country, Northern Ireland is a province of Ireland and it is a province in the UK and I think that the notion of a national identity or group identity or racial identity or cultural identity here is a nonsense.&quot; - Michael McGimpsey quoted in F. Cochrane, 2001, Unionist politics and the politics of Unionism since the Anglo-Irish Agreement, Cork University Press: Cork # &quot;Moreover, Northern Ireland is a province, not a country. Even before direct rule, many of the decisions affecting the economy, labour law, and wage bargaining were in reality taken in London, thereby diminishing the importance of local control.&quot; A Aughey, 1996, Duncan Morrow, Northern Ireland Politics, Longmon: London :There you go, ample evidence that claiming Northern Ireland is a country is not neutral. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 16:00, 24 September 2010 (UTC) Why do you not take this argument to the Northern Ireland Wikipedia page? Northern Ireland is a country within a soverign state.FACT![[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 16:09, 24 September 2010 (UTC) :Are you really going to dispute an article form Cambridge University Press? Bravo O Fenian for finding these wide variety of credible references. --[[User:NorthernCounties|NorthernCounties]] ([[User talk:NorthernCounties|talk]]) 16:19, 24 September 2010 (UTC) ::Indeed. There is no need for me to go to any other article, since first of all Wikipedia cannot source itself, and secondly Northern Ireland is not described there using the bare descriptor &quot;country&quot;, but as a &quot;county of the United Kingdom&quot;, which is a different thing entirely. I also refer you back to the UNESCO list which lists sites by country, and Northern Ireland does not appear on the list only the United Kingdom. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 16:22, 24 September 2010 (UTC) ::I would also add that this is not a change I have implemented, it has said United Kingdom for ages and ages, before [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Giant%27s_Causeway&amp;action=historysubmit&amp;diff=384756069&amp;oldid=384628954 this edit], which the IP then tried making again, then the baton was taken up by The Maiden City and other editors after him. Having the country as United Kingdom (which is a country) is the stable version, unlike having the country as Northern Ireland (which is not a country). [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 16:44, 24 September 2010 (UTC) Agree with O Fenian as stated above describing Northern Ireland as a country is not neutral, and also stated above UNESCO groups by country and that is United Kingdom not NI. [[User:Mo ainm|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#B22222;font-family:serif;text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;&quot;&gt;'''''Mo ainm'''''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Mo ainm|&lt;span style=&quot;color:black;font-family:cursive;font-size:80%&quot;&gt;~Talk&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:12, 24 September 2010 (UTC) * Wait, what? Are we just disregarding every other article on Wikipedia that comments on this? Northern Ireland, by every other article related to the topic that i've seen on Wikipedia, is labeled as a country. Like [[Countries of the United Kingdom|this]], for example. &lt;font color=&quot;silver&quot;&gt;[[User:Silver seren|Silver]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk:Silver seren|seren]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:08, 25 September 2010 (UTC) : It is neutral to describe Northern Ireland as a country, that is what is done on many articles and it is reliably sourced including by Her Majesty's Government. What is put in the infobox depends on the limitations of the infobox. It should say UK + NI, if the only way to do that is with Country: UK, Reigion: NI then i support the status quo. If it is possible to change the field titles to say something like Sovereign State: United Kingdom. Country: Northern Ireland. Then i will support that. Like the infobox used at [[Manchester]]. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 17:20, 25 September 2010 (UTC) ::I second BW's proposal. The sources that have been brought up here (while good job in finding them) appear to be in a minority as [[Talk:United Kingdom|this]] does mention in FAQ's what counts as a country within the UK. [[User:The C of E|The C of E. God Save The Queen!]] ([[User talk:The C of E|talk]]) 09:36, 27 September 2010 (UTC) :::I also agree with BW proposal. Northern Ireland will soon be competing in the [[Commonwealth Games]] [http://www.thecgf.com/countries/country_index.asp] as a country. Good on them. --[[Special:Contributions/87.113.88.49|87.113.88.49]] ([[User talk:87.113.88.49|talk]]) 10:44, 27 September 2010 (UTC) ::::They say the Isle of Man is a country too... [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 11:09, 27 September 2010 (UTC) I would refer editors to [[Talk:Northern_Ireland/Archive_8#&quot;Country&quot; (no doubt discussed before)]] to see how [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Northern_Ireland&amp;oldid=321136407 this] became the current wording of the Northern Ireland article. The first post is worth reading especially, it says &quot;It is disenginious, misleading, non-neutral (and undue weight) to so baldly state that Northern Ireland is a &quot;country&quot; when the same thing can be expressed by simply stating that it is a &quot;part of the United Kingdom&quot;. (Reminder: the current version says that Northern Ireland is both a &quot;country&quot; and a &quot;part of the United Kingdom&quot; as if they are two distinct facts.) Northern Ireland is a part of the United Kingdom, that is simple and unambigious. But to say that Northern Ireland is a &quot;country&quot; (without at the least a qualification of what is meant) is false on very many levels and deeply misleading&quot;. Academic sources have been provided that reject the very idea of Northern Ireland being a country, and it would be a major breach of neutral point-of-view to ignore them and simply label Northern Ireland a &quot;country&quot; in this article. I do not see why people are so intent on claiming the Giant's Causeway is not in a country called the United Kingdom, which is not disputed as being so. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 11:09, 27 September 2010 (UTC) : Well i partly agree with you. I would oppose simply listing Northern Ireland as country without any mention of the United Kingdom. However if it was possible to say Sovereign state: United Kingdom. Constituent Country: Northern Ireland, we should do that as a compromise. Reliable sources say Northern Ireland is a country. Id rather the UK was just considered a country, but they are considered 4 countries of the United Kingdom. It is not unacceptable to say Northern Ireland is a country. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 11:14, 27 September 2010 (UTC) : We could always just say Country: Northern Ireland (United Kingdom). As another compromise. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 11:15, 27 September 2010 (UTC) : {{Geobox|Protected Area &lt;!-- *** Heading *** --&gt; | name = Giant's Causeway and Causeway Coast | native_name = | other_name = | category = &lt;!-- *** Image *** --&gt; | image = Causeway-code poet-4.jpg | image_caption = | image_size = 300px &lt;!-- *** Country *** --&gt; | country = [[Northern Ireland]] (United Kingdom) | country_flag = | state = | region = | district = [[County Antrim]] | municipality = [[Moyle District Council|Moyle]]}} : So it would look like this. That way we do not call Northern Ireland a region which i think is what people are concerned about. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 11:18, 27 September 2010 (UTC) The [[Isle of Man]] is a self-governing [[Crown Dependencies|British Crown Dependency]], it is not a country. Northern Ireland is however a country within the United Kingdom. I would like to see them call Scotland a Region? I agree with you BW, time to change Region to Country as it should be.--[[Special:Contributions/87.113.88.49|87.113.88.49]] ([[User talk:87.113.88.49|talk]]) 13:20, 27 September 2010 (UTC) I would like to add my 2 cents. I think it should be 'Country-Northern Ireland, Sovereign State-United Kingdom'. Aside from that I think this should be raised at the discussion forum of the Northern Ireland WP rather than go through every town and place in Northern Ireland with a WP and has Northern Ireland listed as a country.[[User:Pilgrimsquest|Pilgrimsquest]] ([[User talk:Pilgrimsquest|talk]]) 14:58, 27 September 2010 (UTC) : I dont think the template allows Sovereign state to be put. How do you feel about the example &gt;&gt;&gt; [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 15:01, 27 September 2010 (UTC) : No matter, i suspect you wont be able to respond soon. lol [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 15:09, 27 September 2010 (UTC) ::While it excludes the significant, if not majority, viewpoint that Northern Ireland is not a country, there is little prospect of consensus for change. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 15:10, 27 September 2010 (UTC) ::: Northern Ireland is accepted as a country on wikipedia. Reliable sources at [[Countries of the United Kingdom]] show this. What is inaccurate about changing it to say Northern Ireland (United Kingdom) in the country field. That addresses the concern about stating region - Northern Ireland. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 15:51, 27 September 2010 (UTC) ::::No, it is not. I suggest looking at the links I provided and the sources. You are not presenting a single point-of-view as fact in the face of evidence that disputes that point-of-view. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 18:22, 27 September 2010 (UTC) ::::: What is the problem with the proposal to put Northern Ireland (United Kingdom)? in the country field. That addresses concerns about NI being described as a region that some have. Northern Ireland is described as a country of the UK on wikipedia, this is reliably sourced. So there is nothing incorrect about saying it. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 18:45, 27 September 2010 (UTC) I think it is best that if O Fenian and friends are so easily offended, I think we should just remove Geography altogether and just say 'Somewhere in the Northern Hemisphere'. Northern Ireland is a country and to ignore the facts and the majority view on Wikipedia purely to satisfy a few does not make sense.[[User:Pilgrimsquest|Pilgrimsquest]] ([[User talk:Pilgrimsquest|talk]]) 15:18, 27 September 2010 (UTC) :What friends of O Fenian have you encountered? Should we use check user on your account? Or would it also be inaccurate? --[[User:NorthernCounties|NorthernCounties]] ([[User talk:NorthernCounties|talk]]) 15:24, 27 September 2010 (UTC) ::[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ASockpuppet_investigations%2FThe_Maiden_City&amp;action=historysubmit&amp;diff=387331474&amp;oldid=387331367 Already done]. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 15:26, 27 September 2010 (UTC) :::I had assumed it was to good to be true when Wikipedia was quiet this weekend, I shall wait in the shadows until further socks undoubtly raise their heads. Well done getting that one sorted quickly --[[User:NorthernCounties|NorthernCounties]] ([[User talk:NorthernCounties|talk]]) 15:32, 27 September 2010 (UTC) So what are we going to do about this? [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 11:10, 28 September 2010 (UTC) :I think following the template above would be the best decision, since it lists Northern Ireland properly as a country, but then clarifies that it is still a part of the United Kingdom. &lt;font color=&quot;silver&quot;&gt;[[User:Silver seren|Silver]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk:Silver seren|seren]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:01, 28 September 2010 (UTC) ::As O Fenian and NorthernCounties have pointed out, calling Northern Ireland a ''country'' is inaccurate and controversial. However, the term ''country'' itself is ambiguous. The simple solution would be to use the ''location'' field and have ::&lt;code&gt;State: United Kingdom&lt;/code&gt; ::&lt;code&gt;Location: County Antrim, Northern Ireland&lt;/code&gt; ::I think this argument has shown that the [[Template:Geobox/type/nature|template itself]] needs to be changed; since ''country'' is ambiguous and not every state is divided into ''regions, districts'' or ''municipalities''. Thoughts? [[User:Asarlaí|~Asarlaí]] 15:02, 28 September 2010 (UTC) :::If we could just add in a Sovereign State section higher than Country, that would work fine. But Country is still the correct term, regardless of controversy, otherwise we wouldn't have [[Countries of the United Kingdom|this]] article. &lt;font color=&quot;silver&quot;&gt;[[User:Silver seren|Silver]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk:Silver seren|seren]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:18, 28 September 2010 (UTC) ::::In aid to arrive at a conclusion, I would support changing the [[Template:Geobox/type/nature|template]]. Or even something along the lines of what is present [[Birmingham|here]]. Where it includes '''Sovereign State,''' '''Constituent Country,''' '''County'''. --[[User:NorthernCounties|NorthernCounties]] ([[User talk:NorthernCounties|talk]]) 15:20, 28 September 2010 (UTC) :::::Yeah, we should steal the format from that template. &lt;font color=&quot;silver&quot;&gt;[[User:Silver seren|Silver]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk:Silver seren|seren]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:24, 28 September 2010 (UTC) ::::::Yeah, you would be correct Asarlaí. And no doubt the same debate arose around the infobox's which concerned English Cities. This option appears to possibly satisfy all those concerned. --[[User:NorthernCounties|NorthernCounties]] ([[User talk:NorthernCounties|talk]]) 15:35, 28 September 2010 (UTC) ::::::: Changing it to include fields : Sovereign State and Constituent Country seems to be a good way of resolving this. Is it simple to change the template to include those extra optional fields? [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 15:40, 28 September 2010 (UTC) Having looked at a lot of pages recently on Northern Ireland for my initial research alot of the pages say Sovereign State: UK, Country: Northern Ireland. So why the fuss over the Giant's Causeway? I would imagine most people know the ingredients of the UK if they don't they can just read the UK WP. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/147.114.44.201|147.114.44.201]] ([[User talk:147.114.44.201|talk]]) 09:15, 29 September 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; BritishWatcher, I don't think everyone is in agreement to change anything? Having scanned the thread there is some compelling sources that suggest that Northern Ireland isn't a country but probably as many if not more suggesting it is a country. In absence of an agreement should the page not just be changed to be consistent with every other page with a Northern Topic ie Sovereign State:UK, Country: NI? I think someone mentioned before that this not the page either to discuss this given that it is such a large topic being discussed solely by those who monitor this page. Aside from this I am not sure how Northern Ireland being called a country could be deemed offensive or non-neutral?[[User:Dame edna uk|Dame edna uk]] ([[User talk:Dame edna uk|talk]]) 08:49, 1 October 2010 (UTC) : I thought the idea of putting Sovereign state: UK, Constituent country: Northern Ireland, in the infobox as suggested above was the best option dealing with concerns on both sides. I tried changing the infobox, but it didnt work. Its in line with some of the templates like at [[Manchester]]. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 12:10, 3 October 2010 (UTC) Is this page going to be changed? It still says country: 'United Kingdon' when it should say Northern Ireland.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 08:38, 21 October 2010 (UTC) :Northern Ireland is not a country. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 08:50, 21 October 2010 (UTC) United Kingdom isnt a country. so where does that leave us? Could we just remove United Kingdom and Northern Ireland and just say some in the Northern Hemisphere? or would that too be deemed offensive and non-neutral[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 09:11, 21 October 2010 (UTC) : The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a country. Northern Ireland is a country of the United Kingdom. The proposed solution about changing the template was a good idea, sadly the template is mind boggling and ive no clue how to change it without messing everything up. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 09:42, 21 October 2010 (UTC) In keeping with the Northern Ireland wikipedia page, Northern Ireland is a country. It has been agreed there. So all you need to do is change Country to Northern Ireland and remove region or you can change region to sovereign state and include UK.simples.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 09:49, 21 October 2010 (UTC) : This is a copy of the template used [[User:BritishWatcher/geobox]]. It does not look very simple to add fields like sovereign state and constituent country. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 09:54, 21 October 2010 (UTC) just copy part of the template from another page.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 09:57, 21 October 2010 (UTC) :&quot;In keeping with the Northern Ireland wikipedia page, Northern Ireland is a country&quot;, wrong. Wikipedia cannot source itself. Northern Ireland is not a country, since its description as such is disputed by many reliable sources. There is no official legal designation of what Northern Ireland actually is by the British government. You cannot exclude sources because you dislike what they have to say in order to present opinion as fact. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 16:53, 21 October 2010 (UTC) Well given that the content of the Northern Ireland Wikipedia page is based on numerous reliable sources, i'd say it is safe to assume that those same sources can be applied to this page aswell. Its a matter of consistency aswell. The consensus on the Northern Ireland WP is that it is a country and that being the case this consensus should filter down through all Northern Ireland related articles.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 17:05, 21 October 2010 (UTC) : Saying Sovereign state: United Kingdom. Constituent country: Northern Ireland in the infobox is the best compromise, but it is not simple to change the template, you cant just copy and paste something. There is line after line saying country there, ive no idea where to insert them. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 18:17, 21 October 2010 (UTC) BritishWatcher, what is the difference between saying Country and Constituent Country? Why is this page treated differently to every other page on Northern Ireland. If you go to any Northern Ireland Town page, the template includes Sovereign State and Country. Just change country to Northern Ireland and remove region.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 09:12, 22 October 2010 (UTC) If there are no objections I will edit this page to say ''Country:Northern Ireland'' and ''Sovereign State:United Kingdom'' in keeping with Infobox UK place template and other Northern Ireland related pages. Will leave it 24hrs before test edit.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 09:57, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Factocop, have you not read the above discussion? There is NO consensus for you to do the proposed edit so I suggest you leave it until a consensus is reached. [[User:Bjmullan|Bjmullan]] ([[User talk:Bjmullan|talk]]) 10:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::To describe Northern Ireland as a country is inherently point-of-view. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 10:09, 2 November 2010 (UTC) I have said before that this is hardly the place to discuss whether Northern Ireland is a country or not. That question should be discussed at a much larger forum. Would you agree?[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 10:13, 2 November 2010 (UTC) I don't see why this page should be different to other Northern Ireland related WP? If you look at any Northern Ireland town page they all say ''Country:Northern Ireland'' and ''Sovereign State:United Kingdom'' so until consensus is reached at a much larger forum, I think this page should be consistent with every other page relating to Northern Ireland. If there are no further objections then, I will edit the page to be consistent with other Northern Ireland related pages.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 10:24, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :No consensus so please leave as per my comments above. [[User:Bjmullan|Bjmullan]] ([[User talk:Bjmullan|talk]]) 10:59, 2 November 2010 (UTC) When you say consensus...did you raise this issue at a larger forum? I have said before, and you have chosen to ignore this point already but this issue affects all Northern Ireland related WP so this is obviously not the correct discussion page for this. This page will be changed to be in line with other Northern Ireland related articles until a consensus has been reached at a larger arena. Any further objections?[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 11:14, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :I see you are still not getting the indenting thing, it is very useful and all other editor would appreciate if you would comply with the norm. As for your question yes there is still objection as there isn't any consensus and you just repeating your statement doesn't change anything. [[User:Bjmullan|Bjmullan]] ([[User talk:Bjmullan|talk]]) 11:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::Have you raised this discussion at a larger forum? Why should this page be different from every other page relating to Northern Ireland? If you can not answer these questions, I will assume no objections to the change.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 11:34, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::As I have already pointed out this morning I am NOT your question and answer boy. Of course this issues is being discussed elsewhere why don't you go and find it. [[User:Bjmullan|Bjmullan]] ([[User talk:Bjmullan|talk]]) 12:18, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::: Thats the thing, I couldnt find it. If this is being discussed else where and consensus has not been met then this page should be changed to be in line with other Northern Ireland related pages. You still didnt answer my questions so ill assume no objection. Last chance....Why should this page be different from every other page relating to Northern Ireland? [[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 12:27, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::::: Hi Factocop. Firstly, I would respectfully point you to the following [[WP:ULTIMATUM|recommendation against declaring an ultimatum]]. It is not in the spirit of consensus to do so, and will only result in problems. Secondly, I would also point out that the UNESCO infobox (as with all other UNESCO infoboxes) refers to the &quot;state party&quot; which is signatory to the convention. This is [http://whc.unesco.org/en/statesparties/ the UK], and not NI. [[User:Guliolopez|Guliolopez]] ([[User talk:Guliolopez|talk]]) 13:08, 2 November 2010 (UTC) : I didnt mean it to sound like an ultimatum and Your right its not in the spirit of consensus, but I am not seeking consensus to whether Northern Ireland is a country or not on this page as it is far too small a forum for such a large issue. Bjmullan, has suggested that this issue has been raised elsewhere but cant find it. My notion is that if consenus can not or has not been reached that the page should reflect all other pages on Northern Ireland. I would agree with the UNESCO template. But at present the UNESCO template is not in use. I would be happy to use the template as used at Stone Henge for example.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 13:20, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ok, any objection to using the UNESCO template used at Stone Henge? If not, ill work away.[[User:Factocop|Factocop]] ([[User talk:Factocop|talk]]) 15:43, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Is this {{tlx|Infobox World Heritage Site}}? Because this article seems to use it already. The difference between this one and [[Stonehenge]] is that this one uses {{tlx|Geobox}} before {{tlx|Infobox World Heritage Site}}. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 15:53, 2 November 2010 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:TFOWR&diff=394391052</id> <title>User talk:TFOWR</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:TFOWR&diff=394391052"/> <updated>2010-11-02T15:20:29Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: /* TR appeal */ Meh...! <hr /> <div>{{User:TFOWR/Talkheader}} {{User:MiszaBot/config |maxarchivesize = 200K |counter = 11 |minthreadsleft = 20 |algo = old(3d) |archive = User talk:TFOWR/Archive %(counter)d }}{{clear right}} {{Signpost-subscription|right|width=19em}} == Concerned == Editor {{user|Grayshi}} just yesterday removed an entire article and redirected it, without discussion or any attempt to merge it. Just doesn't seem right. Granted the article needs work and is pretty much unsouced, but I know it is important to the people of my own and surrounding communities. I am willing to merge the two articles, rather than lose what some have put a lot of work into. Grayshi is not even an admin and it seems to me to be way beyond bold and presumptuous. I can undo it but I wanted your opinion first. The article is, well, the diff is [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?curid=2278102&amp;diff=392642519&amp;oldid=389001399 Southern California Chinatowns] because Grayshi just unilaterally zapped the whole thing and redirected it. I am writing you also because I am feeling very red-headed about it! ;-) Namaste...[[User:DocOfSoc|DocOfSoc]] ([[User talk:DocOfSoc|talk]]) 10:31, 25 October 2010 (UTC) *It's a perfectly legitimate thing for a non-administrator to do. [[Wikipedia:Be bold|We encourage exactly this sort of boldness]]. Administrators aren't funnels through which every single content decision has to be poured. Content decisions are made by the editor community at large, of which administrators are a sub-set. What isn't legitimate is to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=392642519&amp;oldid=389001399 do the same thing] twice, with no discussion on [[Talk:Southern California Chinatowns]] or elsewhere. You should remind Grayshi of [[Wikipedia:Bold, revert, discuss]] and [[Wikipedia:Edit war]]. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=386649247&amp;oldid=384185274 This] was boldness; [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=386662910&amp;oldid=386649247 this] was the reversion to the status quo ante; but discussion is lacking.&lt;p&gt;Another thing that administrators are not is police. Neither &quot;administrator&quot; nor &quot;sysop&quot; accurately describe what we are. (I've used &quot;[[wikt:trusty#English|trusty]]&quot; before now, to make the point that we're the same as everyone else, except trusted with some rather more dangerous tools.) We're the charity shop volunteers with the abilities to show people out of the shop door onto the street, to throw items in the bin, to retrieve them from the same, to padlock various things so that normal volunteers cannot change them, and to rapidly mop up various spillages in aisle 27. We're only middle-men inasmuch as [[Wikipedia:Third opinion|every editor is a middle-man]].&lt;p&gt;It's the responsibility of ''everyone'' in the editor community to apply peer pressure to editors whose actions are suboptimal. [[Wikipedia:Editing policy]] is one of our most-overlooked official policies. The peer pressure in this case would be you and Ucla90024 going to [[User talk:Grayshi]], reminding xem of the BRD cycle, and asking why the &quot;D&quot; part appears to be missing. ''Talking to other editors'' &amp;mdash; in this case directly &amp;mdash; is the first step in any dispute resolution.&lt;p&gt;You should also sort out the problem by addressing the underlying issue in dispute. Find out which parts of the article Fong1994 supports, and cross-link the prose to the citation. Find supporting sources for the other parts of the article. Mercilessly apply the sword of verifiability. [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] ([[User talk:Uncle G|talk]]) 11:20, 25 October 2010 (UTC) * Hi DocOfSoc, how's it going? I'm catching up with things now but in the interim I'm glad to see you've got some excellent advice from Uncle G. Uncle G's quite right - changing an article into a redirect is a perfect example of being [[WP:BOLD]]. There is, of course, nothing to stop you reverting the change to a redirect. Beyond that I'd recommend both of you discussing any further changes. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 09:42, 26 October 2010 (UTC) == Looking for wisdom...or experience... == Hi TFOWR, hope you don't mind me coming here and asking a question ~ you're a fairly new admin, so you probably remember what it's like not to be one of the all-knowing, and for quite a long time i've noticed you and figured your head was on straight. I was looking through a conflict i was, regrettably, involved in about a year ago, and i notice that the talk page of the article has been [[Talk:Earl_of_Clare/Archive_1|archived]], maybe to hide the disagreements that happened; i have no issue with that. What does surprise me, however, is that the page was edited at some point prior to being archived, so that it no longer is a correct record of what happened. To be specific, i can easily point to at least one of my comments that was completely removed [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Earl_of_Clare&amp;diff=321209055&amp;oldid=321206330 here], and that isn't the only pruning done. My question is, do i ignore this? reinsert the missing comments silently? reinsert them and add a note at the beginning of the archive? note that the archive is incomplete at its top? I don't know, so i turn for your opinion.&lt;br /&gt;On a completely irrelevant side note, have you changed your sig recently? It's seemed to be slightly more muted; i preferred the previous edition. &lt;br /&gt;Thanks, and Cheers, '''[[User:LindsayH|Lindsay]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:LindsayH|Hi]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:46, 25 October 2010 (UTC) :Hi Lindsay, no worries. This does look somewhat &quot;shady&quot; to me. I'll have a closer look and a think about it and comment further later today. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 09:43, 26 October 2010 (UTC) == BISE == Hi TFOWR, I've added the template and &quot;Arguments For/Against&quot; sections to [[Storm Warning (novel)]] - hope that's OK, not sure if the procedure is to wait for you to add the sections or not. Don't think there's any harm in me adding it. You may also want to check out the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3ABritish_Isles_Terminology_task_force%2FSpecific_Examples&amp;action=historysubmit&amp;diff=392807807&amp;oldid=392641551 latest contribution from Triton Rocker]] if you get a chance. --[[User:HighKing|HighKing]] ([[User talk:HighKing|talk]]) 19:43, 25 October 2010 (UTC) :I've not looked at BISE, but I (or rather [[User:TFOWR's left sock|my alternate account]]) saw that the TR issue had ended up on AN/ANI? I need to do some catching up today, I'll comment further once my clue-levels are restored. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 09:45, 26 October 2010 (UTC) ::TR was blocked for a year. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|Chipmunkdavis]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 09:59, 26 October 2010 (UTC) ::{{ec}} I've caught up enough to see a ''one year block''. Blimey, I've been trying to suggest for a while that the admins previously monitoring BISE might not be the evil, rouge admins that TR ''et al'' apparently believed we were, and that outside admins might take an even tougher line. Well, guess what. Outside admins took an even tougher line. What's the betting that this, too, gets challenged ''ad nauseum'' at AN and ANI, and it, too, gets upheld each time? [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 10:02, 26 October 2010 (UTC) == Block evasion == Some more [[Special:Contributions/78.148.84.145|block evasion]] for your attention, if you have time to break out the &lt;s&gt;cinder&lt;/s&gt;blocks. They left a note on [[User:Nakon]]'s talk page, asking why they'd been blocked. Not sure if it's worth overlooking this one since it's a single edit and not attempting to hide their identity, but their account was apparently blocked as a VOA, so that's a fairly good indication of the user's intention, I'd imagine. &lt;span id=&quot;sig&quot; style=&quot;background:#FFFFC0&quot;&gt;'''[[User:Giftiger wunsch|&lt;font face=&quot;Verdana&quot; color=&quot;#900000&quot;&gt;Giftiger&lt;font color=&quot;#FF0000&quot;&gt;Wunsch&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]]''' [[User talk:Giftiger wunsch|&lt;font face=&quot;Tahoma&quot; color=&quot;#0060A0&quot;&gt;[TALK]&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:29, 25 October 2010 (UTC) :{{diff2|392852435|TTTSNB has answered the IP's question}}. Given there's only one edit from the IP I'd be inclined to leave it (might be dynamic, I wouldn't want to block an innocent IP, etc). {{user0|Nakon}} seems to be about, so they can pick up any blocking if they feel it's warranted. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 09:52, 26 October 2010 (UTC) ::Fair enough; I thought it might be worth overlooking a single edit of that nature but thought I'd point it out just in case. &lt;span id=&quot;sig&quot; style=&quot;background:#FFFFC0&quot;&gt;'''[[User:Giftiger wunsch|&lt;font face=&quot;Verdana&quot; color=&quot;#900000&quot;&gt;Giftiger&lt;font color=&quot;#FF0000&quot;&gt;Wunsch&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]]''' [[User talk:Giftiger wunsch|&lt;font face=&quot;Tahoma&quot; color=&quot;#0060A0&quot;&gt;[TALK]&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 10:03, 26 October 2010 (UTC) == You got mail == Hi TFOWR, just sent you an email. Best, [[User:Daicaregos|Daicaregos]] ([[User talk:Daicaregos|talk]]) 14:22, 26 October 2010 (UTC) :Thanks. [[User:Daicaregos|Daicaregos]] ([[User talk:Daicaregos|talk]]) 14:53, 26 October 2010 (UTC) ::No problem. I've emailed you, but I guess you're as up-to-date now as the email ;-) One other thing - I posted at [[WP:AN#Younger editor, personal safety, and an article about a non-notable subject|WP:AN]], just in case I missed something. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 14:56, 26 October 2010 (UTC) == The thread == Your actions were fine (you missed deleting the userpage red redirect) but it was counter-intuitive to post about it to AN (increases visibility of their real name on a widely watched noticeboard), so I removed the thread. Best, –[[user:xeno|&lt;font face=&quot;verdana&quot; color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;'''xeno'''&lt;/font&gt;]][[user talk:xeno|&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;talk&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] 14:58, 26 October 2010 (UTC) :No worries, I was really looking for some sanity-checking, and I trust you to sanity-check my actions and, in this case, sanitise them too ;-) [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 14:59, 26 October 2010 (UTC) ::Think we're all sorted now =) –[[user:xeno|&lt;font face=&quot;verdana&quot; color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;'''xeno'''&lt;/font&gt;]][[user talk:xeno|&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;talk&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] 15:04, 26 October 2010 (UTC) == Vandal block request. == Hellow again. BTW, this request is that of an entirely different banana for the moment. The user on {{ipvandal|121.54.42.150}} has been inserting titles of [[tokusatsu]] and anime shows without any source to several Philippine TV program lists. This guy was previously blocked for 31 hours, but the guy was back to his old tricks after the block expired. BTW, I can't him to WP:AIV because his last edit is three hours ago, but I know he will strike again later in a few hours time. Thank you. - [[User: Nanami Kamimura|上村七美 (Nanami-chan)]] | &lt;small&gt;[[User talk: Nanami Kamimura|talkback]] | [[Special: Contributions/Nanami Kamimura|contribs]]&lt;/small&gt; 20:50, 26 October 2010 (UTC) :AIV might consider it, as it's clearly the same editor behind the IP. That said, I'm going to hold off for now and keep an eye out for edits over the next few hours (their editing times seem to be from about 01:00 UTC to 18:00 UTC). If I catch 'em in the act I'll block 'em. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 20:56, 26 October 2010 (UTC) ::BTW, WP:AIV is backlogged right now. This is why I am hesitant to put a repost on there. - [[User: Nanami Kamimura|上村七美 (Nanami-chan)]] | &lt;small&gt;[[User talk: Nanami Kamimura|talkback]] | [[Special: Contributions/Nanami Kamimura|contribs]]&lt;/small&gt; 20:59, 26 October 2010 (UTC) :::Hmmm, looks like the bot's on strike ;-) It looks like there's only one outstanding, the others have either been referred to SPI or declined. Anyway, ''I'm'' on strike - it's too late in the day for me to start being a hard-working admin ;-) [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 21:02, 26 October 2010 (UTC) == possible banned user violating their ban == {{Userlinks|The guy who blocks other blockers}} was banned over the weekend for persistant vandalism after added unsourced content to list of simpsons episodes, yesterday an IP called {{Userlinks|86.41.29.62}} editted the same page putting in the same unsourced content, I checked both user contributions and they are both editting TV related article so I suspect our banned user is back, on the other hand though the IPs edits are to a lot of disney articles I know this is a big guess/accusation but I fear the IP could even be banned user Bambifan!! the amount of disney articles is a big but probably not enough to prove, althou all the edits look troublesome, they're adding unsourced cartoons/films to the articles &lt;s&gt;but no one seems to have reverted them yet&lt;/s&gt;--[[User:Lerdthenerd|Lerdthenerd]] ([[User talk:Lerdthenerd|talk]]) 07:31, 27 October 2010 (UTC) :{{ec}} I'm looking at this now (about to look at the IP), but I'm in no way a Bambifan expert so may have to punt that part to SPI or ANI. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 07:53, 27 October 2010 (UTC) ::Not seeing a connection between The guy who... and the IP, to be honest. The only overlap is to [[List of The Simpsons episodes]]. The guy who... {{diff2|392550647|took issue with season 22}}, while the IP {{diff2|392993686|tried to add season 23}}. I don't really have enough data on The guy who... to call it - it wouldn't completely surprise me if the two turned out to be the same - any autoblock on The guy who... wouldn't necessarily affect the IP (IP could be dynamic) but equally with just one article in common, and the edits to that article not being directly equivalent, it's far to tough to say definitively that they're the same. The only thing I can recommend is keeping an eye on the IP. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 07:59, 27 October 2010 (UTC) ::ok I'll watch them--[[User:Lerdthenerd|Lerdthenerd]] ([[User talk:Lerdthenerd|talk]]) 08:17, 27 October 2010 (UTC) == [[WP:BISE|BISE]] cleanup. == [[Wikipedia talk:British Isles Terminology task force/Specific Examples#Conkers (Resolved)|Conkers]] and [[Wikipedia talk:British Isles Terminology task force/Specific Examples#...and Aesculus, Aesculus hippocastanum (Resolved)|Aesculus]] could probably be archived with resolved cases. [[Wikipedia talk:British Isles Terminology task force/Specific Examples#Polls|The polls]], [[Wikipedia talk:British Isles Terminology task force/Specific Examples#Categories|Categories]], [[Wikipedia talk:British Isles Terminology task force/Specific Examples#States of Alderney|States of Alderney]], and [[Wikipedia talk:British Isles Terminology task force/Specific Examples#British Isles terminology task force|the deletion discussion]] could also be archived, somewhere... They weren't exactly cases. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|Chipmunkdavis]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 10:39, 27 October 2010 (UTC) :Heh, I've been putting BISE off since the MfD concluded. I'll aim to take a look at archiving over the next few days. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 11:01, 27 October 2010 (UTC) ::Yes, I noticed! You've also made your name unclickable, for some strange reason. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|Chipmunkdavis]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 11:36, 27 October 2010 (UTC) :::It's my talkpage ;-) Try it on yours - the second part of your signature will also be unclickable. My sig works normally everywhere but here! [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 14:41, 27 October 2010 (UTC) ::::The second part of mine redirect to the &quot;#top&quot; of my talkpage, but then again, it's not a custom signature! What happened to the in your face red anyway, it's all dull now. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|Chipmunkdavis]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 15:20, 27 October 2010 (UTC) :::::I changed the red as the default &quot;red&quot; was a bit too bright. {{small|I have a theory that as time goes by the chance of me returning to the default signature steadily increases... though I did also have a theory that userboxes were evil...!}} [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 16:07, 27 October 2010 (UTC) == when you get a chance == [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:ANI#On_good_faith.2C_and_being_taken_for_total_mugs]. I'd like a quick outside view on the behaviour here (appaently [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive643#Blocking_MickMacNee_from_AfD_boards_permanently_for_PA_and_UNCIVIL_violations|this]] is relevant also). Mick's had full and fair warning and decided to ignore it, also LemonMonday is back. Just wanted a sanity check in case I am wrong here--[[User:Cailil|&lt;font color=&quot;#999999&quot; size=&quot;2&quot;&gt;'''Cailil'''&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Cailil|&lt;font color=&quot;#999999&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:05, 27 October 2010 (UTC) == [[Stages: Three Days in Mexico]] == Hey TFOWR! I made a mistake with a speedy deletion request for this article, but my reason for it was that it doesn't meet notability guidelines. [[User:Xwomanizerx|Xwomanizerx]] ([[User talk:Xwomanizerx|talk]]) 00:53, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :No worries, it happens! I'd suggest a [[WP:PROD]] or [[WP:AFD]], as on the face of it it seems to have enough significance/importance to survive speedy deletion (and I can't think of a speedy criteria that would apply, anyway - A9 comes closest, but this isn't a musical recording and the &quot;Britney&quot; connection would probably rule A9 out anyway). [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 00:58, 28 October 2010 (UTC) == Rangoon11's filing of [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Codf1977]] and his other actions yesterday. == {{user5|Rangoon11}} {{user5|VHarris44}} {{user5|Derekspage}} Hi, I was a little surprised to see {{diff|User talk:Codf1977|393232829|392786398|this SPI notice}} posted to my talk page, however not surprised by who posted it. I know that I and Rangoon11 have &quot;history&quot; - however can you have a look at his actions yesterday with a couple of new editors and see if there is anything untoward ? After what looks to have started as a content dispute over Office locations with one editor {{user|Vharris44}} and at KCL with another {{user|Derekspage}} ended with a SPI on me and Vharris44 blocked for harassment. On Tuesday, it looks like vharris44 had an issue with the Office location section at [[DLA Piper]], after a revert or two this was discussed in the talk page. A number of other editors would seem to have agreed there were problems with the section and the disucssion was progressing. During the discussion, Rangoon11 posted a {{diff|Talk:DLA Piper|392976904|392970911|list}} of other articles with a similar Office location sections. Yesterday vharris44 then made edits to the Office Location sections of the articles listed by Rangoon11 (all bar one [[K&amp;L Gates]]), in the order that they are listed. Of the list only two ([[Baker &amp; McKenzie]] and [[Linklaters]]) show edits by Rangoon11 prior to Vharris44, the rest ([[Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher &amp; Flom]], [[Jones Day]], [[Gide Loyrette Nouel]], [[Linklaters]] and [[Greenberg Traurig]]) Vharris44 edited prior to Rangoon11 (this is important as vharris44's block was for harassment). There then followed a revert by Rangoon11 on [[Linklaters]] follwed by a revert by Vharris on a series of revert edits by Rangoon11 on [[King's College London]] ({{diff|King's College London|393178385|393178252|here}}). There then followed a series of revert and counter reverts and talk page postings by both editors to various locations. Prior to Vharris44's KCL revert, Derekspage had been making a number of edits to KCL, which Rangoon11 then reverted. I believe then Rangoon11 tried to game the system, he posted to [[WP:ANI]] {{diff|Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents|393189205|393189138|this}} post where he concludes that Vharris44, Derekspage are one in the same and they are also me and that he was &quot;not sure what to do about it.&quot;, of cause he knew exactly what to do as he himself had been through the same processes less than three weeks ago. I suspect he was hopeful that another editor would file the SPI, instead Vharris44 got blocked for harassment, which I am finding hard to see (unless there are some deleted edits which I can't see in history) given the fact that it was Rangoon11 that followed Vharris44 to most of the articles and not the other way around. Having waited some three hours after being pointed in the direction of SPI, when it became clear that none of the other editors were going to file a SPI, Rangoon11, filed [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Codf1977|one]]; which not surprisingly, came back as &quot;not related&quot;. I believe that this was a bad faith tit-for-tat filing done in revenge for mine on him (I have posted to the SPI to that effect). I would welcome your comments and/or suggestions on any action or way forward following this. [[User:Codf1977|Codf1977]] ([[User talk:Codf1977|talk]]) 10:04, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :I'll take a look into it. I had seen the SPI and assumed it was nonsense, so it wasn't a surprise when it came back negative. Right now my big worry is around VHarris - the block and subsequent unblock reviews were around harassment and socking, and it sounds as if harassment may be, and socking is, incorrect. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 10:19, 28 October 2010 (UTC) ::OK, I've worked out the timeline ([[#Timeline|below]]). Given the timing of Rangoon11's &quot;list of offices&quot; post, and the subsequent edits and reverts by both editors, I wouldn't necessarily quibble with a block for harassment, though an indef block seems a little harsh for a newbie editor (assuming that VHarris44 ''is'' a newbie editor). It seems to me that Rangoon11 made the &quot;other crap exists&quot; argument to justify the list of [[DLA Piper]] offices. {{small|I take no view on whether the list is or isn't encyclopaedic (though I will comment that I hate, despise, and wish to kill-by-fire flags used for decoration like this...!)}} VHarris44 then took that list and attempted to address what they saw as a wider problem. Rangoon11 reverted them. In most cases (the exception being [[Linklaters]]) VHarris44 edited the article before Rangoon11. The case for harassment then hinges on whether VHarris44 working through Rangoon11's list constitutes harassment. I can see a case for it being a good-faith attempt to fix issues that VHarris44 had previously been unaware existed. I can also see a case for it being a bad-faith attempt to justify a change to [[DLA Piper]]. I'm going to run this past the blocking admin, as it doesn't seem to quite clear-cut enough to justify an indef block. I'm also concerned at the unblock reviews: there was a justifiable suspicion of socking at the time of the reviews; however, this subsequently turned out - so far as I can see - to be not the case. There may, obviously, be factors here that I've missed - I've considered (and rejected, obviously) whether VHarris44 is a sock of you or Derekspage; I have not, however, looked at IP editors or any registered editors apart from you and the three you mentioned here. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 11:26, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :::{{small|Oh, and VHarris44 has ''no'' deleted contribs. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 12:24, 28 October 2010 (UTC)}} :::: Thanks for the time and effort looking into this. You should probably be aware that Rangoon11 has posted to ANI concerning my post here - it is at [[WP:ANI#Harrassment by User:Codf1977]]. [[User:Codf1977|Codf1977]] ([[User talk:Codf1977|talk]]) 12:30, 28 October 2010 (UTC) ::::: Aye, seen it. Tangentially related, but {{diff2|393404781|I asked LessHeard vanU}} to take a look at VHarris44's block. I wouldn't say it's a &quot;bad block&quot; by any stretch, but I do think it's worth examining in more detail, based on the issues you've raised. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 12:37, 28 October 2010 (UTC) === Timeline === * {{la|DLA Piper}} ** ''Rangoon11: first edit @ {{diff|1=DLA_Piper|2=381389214|3=378560581|4=2010-08-13 15:34}}'' {{tick}} ** Rangoon11: edit @ {{diff2|392965843|2010-10-26 09:59}} *** VHarris44: '''revert''' @ {{diff2|392971107|2010-10-26 10:44}} {{cross}} ** '''''Rangoon11: list of offices @ {{diff2|392976904|2010-10-26 11:32}}''''' * {{la|Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher &amp; Flom}} ** VHarris44: first edit @ {{diff|1=Skadden,_Arps,_Slate,_Meagher_&amp;_Flom|2=393174311|3=390027956|4=2010-10-27 09:55}} {{tick}} *** Rangoon11: first edit/'''revert''' @ {{diff2|393184971|2010-10-27 11:21}} {{cross}} * {{la|Jones Day}} ** VHarris44: first edit @ {{diff|1=Jones_Day|2=393175177|3=389787535|4=2010-10-27 10:01}} {{tick}} *** Rangoon11: first edit/'''revert''' @ {{diff2|393185059|2010-10-27 11:21}} {{cross}} * {{la|Gide Loyrette Nouel}} ** VHarris44: first edit @ {{diff2|393175271|2010-10-27 10:02}} {{tick}} *** Rangoon11: first edit/'''revert''' @ {{diff2|393185112|2010-10-27 11:22}} {{cross}} * {{la|Linklaters}} ** ''Rangoon11: first edit @ {{diff|1=Linklaters|2=392300193|3=377821897|4=2010-10-22 10:43}}'' {{tick}} ** VHarris44: edit @ {{diff|1=Linklaters|2=393175409|3=392808479|4=2010-10-27 10:03}} *** Rangoon11: '''revert''' @ {{diff2|393178136|2010-10-27 10:26}} {{cross}} * {{la|Greenberg Traurig}} ** VHarris44: first edit @ {{diff2|393175650|2010-10-27 10:05}} {{tick}} *** Rangoon11: first edit/'''revert''' @ {{diff2|393185189|2010-10-27 11:22}} {{cross}} * {{la|Baker &amp; McKenzie}} ** ''Rangoon11: first edit @ {{diff2|392808623|2010-10-25 16:07}}'' {{tick}} ** ''VHarris44: first edit @ {{diff|1=Baker_&amp;_McKenzie|2=393174822|3=393037678|4=2010-10-27 09:58}}'' * {{la|King's College London}} ** ''Rangoon11: first edit @ {{diff|1=King's_College_London|2=388889865|3=388882560|4=2010-10-05 12:52}}'' {{tick}} ** ''VHarris44: first edit @ {{diff2|393178385|2010-10-27 10:28}}'' == Matty or Mark, what is the difference? == [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Republic_of_Ireland&amp;oldid=388791628 BigMatty93] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Republic_of_Ireland&amp;oldid=393455650 MarkUTR]. As quite rightly you will not be convinced they are the same editor, I think a stern warning from someone like yourself over that particular change might be in order? Thank you. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 17:07, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :{{diff2|393457995|I don't know about a stern warning, but I left a message}}. {{small|You could probably do stuff like this yourself ;-) Just keep it [[WP:AGF]]y, and explain things clearly. Admins only really need to step in if advice gets ignored and editing becomes problematic.}} [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 17:19, 28 October 2010 (UTC) ::OK. People tend to ignore me though.. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 18:47, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :::You and me both! (Though I'll admit it did seem to work in this case...) It does mean when you take it to an admin or AIV (etc) that the admin will be more inclined to reach straight for the mop. I haven't checked - there may already be one - but there should maybe be an edit notice at [[Republic of Ireland]], explaining this situation. Not that editors necessarily pay any notice to edit notices, either - I seem to miss them all the time... [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 18:51, 28 October 2010 (UTC) ::::Never mind. You have each other. ;) [[User:Jack forbes|Jack forbes]] ([[User talk:Jack forbes|talk]]) 18:54, 28 October 2010 (UTC) == Quick request == Since I know you are here. Semi-protect [[The Troubles]] please, it is taking a battering from various IPs. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 18:53, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :{{done}}. Sorry I missed this earlier, I was getting a lot of orange-bar madness from an IP (hence the semi-protection right now...) [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 20:33, 28 October 2010 (UTC) ::No problem. It seems to have stopped now anyway, but that might just be a temporary respite. Thank you. [[User:O Fenian|O Fenian]] ([[User talk:O Fenian|talk]]) 20:34, 28 October 2010 (UTC) == 84.1.210.17 == You beat me in removing it by a second, can you block the editor as typical trolling. Thanks [[User:Secret|Secret]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Secret|account]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:13, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :{{done}}. I was inclined to leave it, but I spotted Yworo's post on their talkpage and from that their gross refactoring. That, with the trolling, tipped the balance... [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 20:31, 28 October 2010 (UTC) == BISE opposers == Why can't those editors (who oppose BISE) begin an RfC? The ''&quot;it's everybodies fault, but ours&quot;'' cry, is becoming lame. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 21:32, 28 October 2010 (UTC) TR needs someone to transfer his 'side of the story' to ANI. Do ya know how to do it? [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 14:08, 29 October 2010 (UTC) :I saw it earlier - one thing that leapt out was he had a whole raft of separate sections, and I suspect anyone considering it would think either (a) &quot;that's way too much, and theres some content-dispute stuff in there that doesn't belong at ANI anyway&quot;, or (b) &quot;what needs to be copied over to ANI and what needs to be left?&quot; :I suspect I'm to blame for the content-dispute stuff - I mentioned that TR's claim re: BskyB wasn't as straightforward as TR was making out, and now TR wants to retort. TR isn't telling me anything I don't know (and haven't already said at ANI), and isn't addressing the underlying point: that the issue isn't as simple as TR claimed. I'm buggered if I'm copying it all to ANI or to BISE - that would be editing-by-proxy (and TR should be aware of that - LevenBoy's been blocked for that nonsense before now). :You could maybe get TR to sort out the wheat from the chaff - work out which parts address their block, and which parts are comments on content or other editors - and then copy it to ANI for TR? If TR restricts themselves to on-topic comments about their block, and not content-disupte cruft or comments on Bjmullan (or any other editor), ''I'd'' be happy to copy it across. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 14:19, 29 October 2010 (UTC) ::I've advised him, to remove his comments on editors. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 14:31, 29 October 2010 (UTC) == User Needs Help Vanishing. == Hello, I am a friend of a user you blocked recently named studiodan. He is unable to contact you, so he asked if I could. He would like to use WP:RTV by changing his username to something random for privacy reasons. He cannot change his username because he is blocked, so I’m checking if you might be of assistance. Thank you. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/65.27.58.157|65.27.58.157]] ([[User talk:65.27.58.157|talk]]) 10:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Possibly. Studiodan will need to [[Special:EmailUser/TFOWR|email me]] to confirm, however. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 10:48, 30 October 2010 (UTC) == E-mail == {{YGM|sig=[[User:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green;&quot;&gt;Hey&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:red;&quot;&gt;'''''Mid'''''&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[Special:Contributions/Heymid|contributions]]) 13:57, 30 October 2010 (UTC)}} == Request for input == Hi. I would appreciate your input on http://admintools.wikia.com/wiki/Admin_Tools_Wiki:Requests_for_rights/Heymid - thanks! &amp;nbsp; — '''&lt;font class=&quot;texhtml&quot;&gt;[[User:Jeff G.|Jeff]] [[User:Jeff G./talk|G.&amp;nbsp; ツ]]&lt;/font&gt;''' 14:40, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :I should point out that the above message is semi-spam; see &lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt;[{{fullurl:Special:Contributions|contribs=user&amp;target=Jeff+G.&amp;offset=20101101&amp;limit=8}} this link]&lt;/span&gt;. He probably chose the users based on my block log and talk page, so not all users are related (like Kww). He seems to be uncertain as to whether to grant me admin privileges at the Admin Tools Wiki (a test wiki for admin tools) or not. [[User:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green;&quot;&gt;Hey&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:red;&quot;&gt;'''''Mid'''''&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[Special:Contributions/Heymid|contributions]]) 15:02, 31 October 2010 (UTC) ::Heymid, why don't you focus on editing articles, like you've promised so very many times when begging to be unblocked, rather than wasting other people's time with administrative requests for something you have no use for? - [[User:Tournesol|Tournesol]] ([[User talk:Tournesol|talk]]) 16:14, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :::'''Tournesol, please stop stalking me.''' You have been told numerous times to stay away from me, but apparently you can't. And you apparently still interpret me as a troll. [[User:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green;&quot;&gt;Hey&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:red;&quot;&gt;'''''Mid'''''&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[Special:Contributions/Heymid|contributions]]) 16:54, 31 October 2010 (UTC) ::I asked everyone who's changed your rights on this wiki, plus your mentor, for input based on you having put forth your experience on this wiki as your sole qualification for adminship on that wiki. I did so because I was uncertain and those people have experience with your behavior as a user here and would be in a good position to evaluate it. Now that I have seen your reaction above (implying that I am a spammer), plus [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jeff_G.&amp;diff=393991644&amp;oldid=393984143 this input from Kww], I don't think you're ready. &amp;nbsp; — '''&lt;font class=&quot;texhtml&quot;&gt;[[User:Jeff G.|Jeff]] [[User:Jeff G./talk|G.&amp;nbsp; ツ]]&lt;/font&gt;''' 16:37, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :::OK. [[User:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green;&quot;&gt;Hey&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Heymid|&lt;span style=&quot;color:red;&quot;&gt;'''''Mid'''''&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[Special:Contributions/Heymid|contributions]]) 16:42, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :::Got it. OK, Jeff G., I've no experience of the Admin Tools Wiki, but it sounds like your decision is sound. Heymid, I've got your email (from yesterday), I've not replied yet but will when I have some time. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 16:51, 31 October 2010 (UTC) == Really excellent == That was a really excellent response at TR's Talk Page. Holding a mirror up is hard for everyone. --[[User:HighKing|HighKing]] ([[User talk:HighKing|talk]]) 12:12, 1 November 2010 (UTC) Oh wad some power the giftie gie us :To see ourselves as others see us! [[Robert Burns]] [[User:Jack forbes|Jack forbes]] ([[User talk:Jack forbes|talk]]) 12:22, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :{{small|Recently most of the &quot;admin&quot; stuff I've been doing is via email; I've just sent an editor - not involved with BISE - an email in which I discuss, among other things, my views on Wikipedia and anarchy. One of these days I really need to write an essay: ''&quot;Wikipedia ''is'' anarchy&quot;''... it'll include Burns:}} {{cquote|For a' that, an' a' that,&lt;br /&gt;It's coming yet for a' that,&lt;br /&gt;That Man to Man, the world o'er,&lt;br /&gt;Shall brothers be for a' that.|author=Robert Burns|source=[[s:A Man's a Man for A' That|A Man's a Man for A' That]]}} :Reason I mention this is: nearly everything we do on Wikipedia is iterative and done through consensus. We're not done yet, but it's coming yet (fir aa that). We don't yet treat each other as equals (but it's coming yet, fir aa that). It's far too easy to look at other editors as our opponents{{mdash}}we've been conditioned into that through society, videogames, TV, war{{mdash}}but it's coming yet, and we're getting there{{mdash}}slowly!{{mdash}}and if we keep at it we'll make progress. Gradually, bit-by-bit, we're moving forward and BISE participants are opening up to the idea that we'll all in it together. Lord knows we're not there yet. DuncanHill's recent posts show there are still areas where we have to make progress, and there are plenty more. But it's coming yet, fir aa that. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 12:43, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == TR appeal == at [[WP:AN#Appeal by Triton Rocker]]. [[User:Ncmvocalist|Ncmvocalist]] ([[User talk:Ncmvocalist|talk]]) 15:17, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Aye, seen it, ta. I'm trying to find a way to ''support'' TR, but try as I might I can't find any way, nor much inclination to bother. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 15:20, 2 November 2010 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dreamteam69&diff=394390773</id> <title>User talk:Dreamteam69</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dreamteam69&diff=394390773"/> <updated>2010-11-02T15:18:34Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Added welcome template to user talk page using TW <hr /> <div> &lt;div style=&quot;font-size:1.5em&quot;&gt;Welcome&lt;/div&gt; ---- Hello and welcome to Wikipedia! We appreciate encyclopedic contributions, but some of '''[[Special:Contributions/{{BASEPAGENAME}}|your recent edits]]''', such as the ones to the page [[:Great Britain]], do not conform to our policies. For more information on this, see [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|Wikipedia's policies on vandalism]] and [[Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not|limits on acceptable additions]]. If you'd like to experiment with the wiki's syntax, please do so in the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|&quot;sandbox&quot;]] rather than in articles. If you still have questions, there is a [[Wikipedia:New contributors' help page|new contributor's help page]], or you can write '''&lt;nowiki&gt;{{helpme}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;''' below this message along with a question and someone will be along to answer it shortly. You may also find the following pages useful for a general introduction to Wikipedia. *[[Wikipedia:Five pillars|The five pillars of Wikipedia]] *[[Help:Contents|Help pages]] *[[Wikipedia:Tutorial|Tutorial]] I hope you enjoy editing and being a [[Wikipedia:Wikipedians|Wikipedian]]! Please [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|sign your name]] on talk pages using four tildes (&lt;nowiki&gt;~~~~&lt;/nowiki&gt;); this will automatically produce your name and the date. Feel free to write a note on the bottom of [[User talk:TFOWR{{!}}my talk page]] if you want to get in touch with me. Again, welcome! [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 15:18, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;!-- Template:Welcomevandal --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Great_Britain&diff=394390701</id> <title>Great Britain</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Great_Britain&diff=394390701"/> <updated>2010-11-02T15:18:01Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Reverted edits by Dreamteam69 (talk) to last version by Ghmyrtle <hr /> <div>{{About|the island|the state that existed from 1707 to 1801|Kingdom of Great Britain|the modern state|United Kingdom|an explanation of terms such as &quot;British&quot;, &quot;United Kingdom&quot;, &quot;England&quot;, &quot;Scotland&quot; and &quot;Wales&quot;|Terminology of the British Isles|other uses|Great Britain (disambiguation)}} &lt;!-- Please do not edit British English spelling to American English spelling. Because this topic is British related, any articles containing British information should be spelt according to British English spelling rules. Thank you. --&gt; {{pp-move-indef|small=yes}} {{Infobox islands |name = Great Britain |native name = {{Collapsible list |title = &lt;center&gt;Names in native languages&lt;center&gt; |&lt;center&gt; {{lang|en|'''Great Britain'''}} {{en icon}} &lt;/center&gt; &lt;center&gt; {{lang|sco|'''Great Breetain'''}}&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=Dictionary of the Scots Language|url=http://www.dsl.ac.uk|publisher=DSL.ac.uk}} Retrieved on 1&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; {{sco icon}} &lt;/center&gt; &lt;center&gt; {{lang|cy|'''Prydain Fawr'''}} {{cy icon}} &lt;/center&gt; &lt;center&gt; {{lang|gd|'''Breatainn Mhòr'''}} {{gd icon}} &lt;/center&gt; &lt;center&gt; {{lang|kw|'''Breten Veur'''}} {{kw icon}}&lt;/center&gt; &lt;/center&gt;}} |nickname = |image name = Satellite image of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in April 2002.jpg |image caption = True colour image of Great Britain, captured by a [[National Aeronautics and Space Administration|NASA]] [[satellite]] on 6 April 2002. |image size = 200px |locator map = LocationIslandGreatBritain.png |location = [[Northern Europe]] |coordinates = {{Coord|53.826|N|2.422|W|display=inline}} |archipelago = British Isles |area km2 = 219000 |area footnotes = &lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://www.intute.ac.uk/worldguide/guide_largestislands.html |title=World Guide - Largest islands |publisher=Intute |date= |accessdate=15 April 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt;{{Verify credibility|date=September 2010}} |rank = 9th |highest mount = [[Ben Nevis]] |elevation m = 1344 |country = {{flag|United Kingdom}} |country admin divisions title = |country admin divisions = {{flag|England}} &lt;br /&gt;{{flag|Scotland}} &lt;br /&gt;{{flag|Wales}} |country largest city = [[London]] |country largest city area = 609 sq mi (1,577.3 km²) |population = 60,003,000&lt;br/&gt;(mid-2009 est.)&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/pop0610.pdf ONS: Population Estimates, June 2010]&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=note0&gt;Figure refers to the population of the United Kingdom excluding Northern Ireland, and includes about 500,000 persons on smaller islands.&lt;/ref&gt; |density km2 =277 |ethnic groups = [[British people|British]] ([[Cornish people|Cornish]], [[English people|English]], [[Scottish people|Scottish]] &amp; [[Welsh people|Welsh]])&lt;ref name=&quot;ons Kernow&quot;&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://www.ons.gov.uk/census/2011-census/consultations/eth-group-nat-iden/sum-rep-exp-com-grp.pdf|publisher=[[Office for National Statistics]]|title=-images-eicexpertsreportfull_tcm77-19490.pdf - [[Adobe Acrobat|Adobe Reader]]|format=PDF|year=2007|page=19|accessdate=31 August 2009|work=National Statistics: 2011 Census: Ethnic group, national identity, religion and language consultation}}&lt;/ref&gt;}} '''Great Britain''' is an [[island]]&lt;ref&gt;[http://islands.unep.ch/Tiarea.htm Islands by land area, United Nations Environment Programme]&lt;/ref&gt; situated to the northwest of [[Continental Europe]]. It is the [[List of islands by area|ninth largest island in the world]], and the largest [[Europe]]an island. With a population of about 60.0&amp;nbsp;million people in mid-2009,&lt;ref name=note0/&gt;&lt;ref name=ons&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/pop0610.pdf|title=Population Estimates|date=24 June 2010|work=National Statistics Online|publisher=Office for National Statistics|accessdate=24 September 2010|location=Newport, Wales}}&lt;/ref&gt; it is [[List of islands by population|the third most populated island on Earth]]. Great Britain is surrounded by over 1,000&lt;ref&gt;[http://mapzone.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/mapzone/didyouknow/howmany/q_14_27.html says 803 islands which have a distinguishable coastline on an Ordnance Survey map, and several thousand more exist which are too small to be shown as anything but a dot.]&lt;/ref&gt; smaller [[islands]] and [[islets]]. The island of [[Ireland]] lies to its west. Politically, Great Britain may also refer to the island itself together with a number of surrounding islands which comprise the territory of [[England]], [[Scotland]] and [[Wales]]. All of the island is [[territory (country subdivision)|territory]] of the sovereign state of the [[United Kingdom|United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland]], and most of the United Kingdom's territory is in Great Britain. Most of England, Scotland, and Wales are on the island of Great Britain, as are their respective capital cities: [[London]], [[Edinburgh]], and [[Cardiff]]. The [[Kingdom of Great Britain]] resulted from the political union of the kingdoms of [[Kingdom of England|England]] and [[Kingdom of Scotland|Scotland]] with the [[Acts of Union 1707]] on 1 May 1707 under [[Anne of Great Britain|Queen Anne]]. In 1801, under a new [[Act of Union 1800|Act of Union]], this kingdom merged with the [[Kingdom of Ireland]] to create the [[United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland]]. After the [[Irish War of Independence]], most of Ireland seceded from the Union. Currently the kingdom is named the [[United Kingdom|United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland]]. The island has a relatively small variety of fauna and flora, due to its size and the fact that wildlife has had little time to develop since the last [[ice age]]. The high level of urbanisation on the island has contributed to a species extinction rate that is about 100 times greater than the background species extinction rate. ==Political definition== {{Main|Kingdom of Great Britain|United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland}} Great Britain is the largest island of the [[United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland]]. Politically, Great Britain also refers to England, Scotland and Wales in combination,&lt;ref name=&quot;Key facts about the United Kingdom&quot;&gt;{{Cite web| title = Key facts about the United Kingdom | work = | publisher = Direct.gov.uk | url = http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/LivingintheUK/DG_10012517 | accessdate = 11 October 2008}}&lt;/ref&gt; and therefore also includes a number of outlying islands such as the [[Isle of Wight]], [[Anglesey]], the [[Isles of Scilly]], the [[Hebrides]], and the island groups of [[Orkney]] and [[Shetland]]. It does not include the [[Isle of Man]] and the [[Channel Islands]] which are not part of the United Kingdom, instead being self-governing dependent territories of that state with their own legislative and taxation systems.&lt;ref name=&quot;Key facts about the United Kingdom&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book| last = Ademuni-Odeke | first = | title = Bareboat Charter (ship) Registration | publisher = Martinus Nijhoff Publishers | year = 1998 | page = 367 | url = http://books.google.com/?id=rvIWmznNEGYC&amp;pg=PA367&amp;dq=great+britan+political+definiton+isle+of+man | isbn = 9041105131}}&lt;/ref&gt; The union of the kingdoms of [[Kingdom of England|England]] and [[Kingdom of Scotland|Scotland]] began with the 1603 [[Union of Crowns]], a personal union under [[James VI of Scotland]], [[James VI of Scotland|I of England]]. The political union that joined the two countries happened in 1707, with the [[Acts of Union 1707|Acts of Union]] merging the parliaments of each nation, and forming the [[Kingdom of Great Britain]], which covered the entire island. ==Geographical definition== {{See|Geography of England|Geography of Scotland|Geography of Wales}} Great Britain lies to the northwest of [[Continental Europe]] and east of Ireland. It is separated from the continent by the [[North Sea]] and by the [[English Channel]], which narrows to {{km to mi|num=34|abbr=no|spell=Commonwealth|precision=0|wiki=yes}} at the [[Straits of Dover]].&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.eosnap.com/?tag=strait-of-dover accessed 14 November 2009]&lt;/ref&gt; It stretches over about ten degrees of [[latitude]] on its longer, north-south axis, and occupies an area of 209,331&amp;nbsp;km² (80,823 square miles).&lt;ref name=&quot;unep&quot;&gt;United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) ISLAND DIRECTORY TABLES &quot;ISLANDS BY LAND AREA&quot;. Retrieved from http://islands.unep.ch/Tiarea.htm on 13 August 2009&lt;/ref&gt; The [[North Channel (Great Britain and Ireland)|North Channel]], [[Irish Sea]], [[St George's Channel]] and [[Celtic Sea]] separate the island from the island of [[Ireland]] to its west.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://www.iho-ohi.net/iho_pubs/standard/S-23/S23_1953.pdf|title=Limits of Oceans and Seas, 3rd edition + corrections|date=1971|publisher=International Hydrographic Organization|accessdate=14&amp;nbsp;August&amp;nbsp;2010|page=42 [corrections to page 13]}}&lt;/ref&gt; The island is physically connected with continental Europe via the [[Channel Tunnel]], the longest undersea rail tunnel in the world which was completed in [[1993]]. Geographically, the island is marked by low, rolling countryside in the east and south, while hills and mountains predominate in the western and northern regions. It is surrounded by over 1,000 smaller [[islands]] and [[islets]]. The greatest distance between two points is 968&amp;nbsp;km / 601.5 miles (between [[Land's End]], [[Cornwall]] and [[John O'Groats]], [[Caithness]]), or 1,349&amp;nbsp;km / 838 miles using the national road network. It is the [[List of islands by population|third most populous island]] after [[Java (island)|Java]] and [[Honshū]].&lt;ref&gt;See [http://www.geohive.com/cd/index.php Geohive.com Country data]; [http://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/kokusei/2000/final/hyodai.htm Japan Census of 2000]; [http://www.statistics.gov.uk/ United Kingdom Census of 2001]. The editors of [[List of islands by population]] appear to have used similar data from the relevant statistics bureaux, and totalled up the various administrative districts that comprise each island, and then done the same for less populous islands. An editor of this article has not repeated that work. Therefore this plausible and eminently reasonable ranking is posted as unsourced [[Wikipedia:Common knowledge|common knowledge]].&lt;/ref&gt; The [[English Channel]] is thought to have been created between 450,000 and 180,000&amp;nbsp;years ago by two catastrophic [[glacial lake outburst flood]]s caused by the breaching of the [[Weald-Artois Anticline]], a ridge which held back a large [[proglacial lake]], now submerged under the North Sea.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Gupta |first=Sanjeev |coauthors=Jenny S. Collier, Andy Palmer-Felgate &amp; Graeme Potter |year=2007 |title=Catastrophic flooding origin of shelf valley systems in the English Channel |journal=[[Nature (journal)|Nature]] |volume=448 |issue=7151 |pages=342–345 |doi=10.1038/nature06018 |url=http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v448/n7151/full/nature06018.html |laysummary=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19833064/ |laysource=[[msnbc.com]] |laydate=18 July 2007 |accessdate=18 July 2007 |pmid=17637667 }}&lt;/ref&gt; Around 10,000&amp;nbsp;years ago, during the [[Wisconsin glaciation|Devensian glaciation]] with its lower [[sea level]], Great Britain was not an island, but an upland region of northwestern Europe, lying partially underneath the Eurasian ice sheet. The sea level was about {{convert|120|m}} lower than today, and the bed of the North Sea was dry and acted as a land bridge to Europe, now known as [[Doggerland]]. It is generally thought that as sea levels gradually rose after the end of the last glacial period of the current ice age, Doggerland became submerged beneath the North Sea, cutting off what was previously the British peninsula from the European mainland by around 6500 BC.&lt;ref name=gaffney&gt;[http://livebettermagazine.com/eng/magazine/pdf_docs/2008_01/Global_Warming_Gaffney.pdf Vincent Gaffney, &quot;Global Warming and the Lost European Country&quot;]&lt;/ref&gt; ==History== {{Main|History of England|History of Scotland|History of Wales|History of the United Kingdom}} {{See also|Prehistoric Britain|Roman Britain|Medieval Britain (disambiguation)|Early Modern Britain}} The island was first inhabited by people who crossed over the land bridge from the European mainland. Traces of early humans have been found (at [[Boxgrove Quarry]], Sussex) from some 500,000 years ago&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book|last=Gräslund|first=Bo|title=Early humans and their world|publisher=Routledge|location=London|year=2005|page=62|chapter=Traces of the early humans|isbn=9780415353441}}&lt;/ref&gt; and modern humans from about 30,000 years ago. Until about 10,000 years ago, Great Britain was joined to Ireland, and as recently as 8,000 years ago it was joined to the continent by [[Doggerland|a strip of low marsh]] to what is now Denmark and the Netherlands. In [[Cheddar Gorge]] near [[Bristol]], the remains of animal species native to mainland Europe such as [[antelope]]s, [[brown bear]]s, and [[wild horse]]s have been found alongside a human skeleton, '[[Cheddar Man]]', dated to about 7150 BC. Thus, animals and humans must have moved between mainland Europe and Great Britain via a crossing.&lt;ref&gt;Lacey, Robert. ''Great Tales from English History''. New York: Little, Brown and Company, 2004. ISBN 0-316-10910-X.&lt;/ref&gt; Great Britain became an island at the end of the [[Pleistocene]] [[ice age]] when sea levels rose due to [[isostatic depression]] of the crust and the melting of [[glacier]]s. According to [[John T. Koch]] and others, Britain in the Late Bronze Age was part of a maritime trading-networked culture called the [[Atlantic Bronze Age]] that also included Ireland, France, Spain and Portugal where [[Celtic languages]] developed.&lt;ref&gt;http://www.aber.ac.uk/aberonline/en/archive/2008/05/au7608/&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=Koch&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Research/ODonnell.pdf|title=O'Donnell Lecture 2008 Appendix}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=Koch2009&gt;{{Cite book| last = Koch | first = John | authorlink = | coauthors = | title = Tartessian: Celtic from the Southwest at the Dawn of History in Acta Palaeohispanica X Palaeohispanica 9 (2009)| publisher = Palaeohispanica | year = 2009 | location = | pages = 339–351 | url = http://ifc.dpz.es/recursos/publicaciones/29/54/26koch.pdf | doi = | id = | issn = 1578-5386 | accessdate = 2010-05-17 }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=2146413465|title=New research suggests Welsh Celtic roots lie in Spain and Portugal|last=Koch|first=John|accessdate=10 May 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book|last=Cunliffe, Karl, Guerra, McEvoy, Bradley; Oppenheimer, Rrvik, Isaac, Parsons, Koch, Freeman and Wodtko|title=Celtic from the West: Alternative Perspectives from Archaeology, Genetics, Language and Literature|year=2010|publisher=Oxbow Books and Celtic Studies Publications|isbn=978-1-84217-410-4|pages=384|url=http://www.oxbowbooks.com/bookinfo.cfm/ID/88298//Location/DBBC}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=Rethinking the Bronze Age and the Arrival of Indo-European in Atlantic Europe|url=http://www.oxbowbooks.com/pdfs/books/Celtic%20West%20conf.pdf|publisher=University of Wales Centre for Advanced Welsh and Celtic Studies and Institute of Archaeology, University of Oxford|accessdate=24 May 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; Its [[Iron Age]] inhabitants are known as the [[Britons (historic)|Britons]], a group speaking a [[Celtic languages|Celtic language]]. The Romans conquered most of the island (up to [[Hadrian's Wall]], in northern England) and this became the [[Ancient Rome|Ancient Roman]] province of ''[[Roman Britain|Britannia]]''. For 500 years after the Roman Empire fell, the Britons of the south and east of the island were assimilated or displaced by invading [[Germanic peoples|Germanic]] tribes ([[Angles]], [[Saxons]], and [[Jutes]], often referred to collectively as [[Anglo-Saxons]]). At about the same time [[Gaelic Ireland|Gaelic]] tribes from Ireland invaded the north-west, absorbing both the [[Picts]] and [[Britons (historical)|Britons]] of northern Britain, eventually forming the Kingdom of Scotland in the 9th century. The south-east of Scotland was colonised by the [[Angles]] and formed, until 1018, a part of the [[Kingdom of Northumbria]]. Ultimately, the population of south-east Britain came to be referred to, after the Angles, as the [[English people]]. Germanic speakers referred to Britons as ''Welsh''. This term eventually came to be applied exclusively to the inhabitants of what is now Wales, but it also survives in names such as [[Wallace (surname)|Wallace]], and in the second syllable of [[Cornwall]]. ''Cymry'', a name the Britons used to describe themselves, is similarly restricted in modern Welsh to people from Wales, but also survives in English in the place name of [[Cumbria]]. The Britons living in the areas now known as Wales and Cornwall were not assimilated by the Germanic tribes, a fact reflected in the survival of Celtic languages in these areas into modern times. At the time of the Germanic invasion of Southern Britain, many Britons emigrated to the area now known as [[Brittany]], where [[Breton language|Breton]], a Celtic language closely related to Welsh and [[Cornish language|Cornish]] and descended from the language of the emigrants, is still spoken. In the 9th century, a series of Danish assaults on northern English kingdoms led to them coming under Danish control (an area known as the [[Danelaw]]). In the 10th century, however, all the English kingdoms were unified under one ruler as the kingdom of England. In 1066, England was [[Norman Conquest|conquered by the Normans]], who introduced a French ruling élite that was eventually assimilated. Wales came under Anglo-Norman control in 1282, and was officially annexed to England in the 16th century. On 20 October 1604 King James (who had succeeded separately to the two thrones of England and Scotland) proclaimed himself as &quot;King of Great Brittaine, France and Ireland&quot;, a title that continued to be used by many of his successors.&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/britstyles.htm#1604 Proclamation styling James I King of Great Britain on 20 October 1604]&lt;/ref&gt; However, England and Scotland each remained legally in existence as separate countries with their own parliaments until 1707, when each parliament passed an [[Act of Union 1707|Act of Union]] to ratify the [[Treaty of Union]] that had been agreed the previous year. This had the effect of creating a united kingdom, with a single, united parliament, from 1 May 1707. Though the Treaty of Union referred to the new all-island state, as the &quot;United Kingdom of Great Britain&quot;, many regard the term 'United Kingdom' as being descriptive of the union rather than part of its formal name (which the Treaty stated was to be 'Great Britain' without further qualification.) Most reference books, therefore, describe the all-island kingdom that existed between 1707 and 1800 as the &quot;Kingdom of Great Britain&quot;. ==Terminology== ===Toponymy=== {{Main|Britain (name)}} The oldest mentions of terms related to the formal name of Britain was made by [[Aristotle]] (c. 384–322 BC), in his text [[On the Universe]], Vol. III. To quote his works, &quot;... in the ocean however, are two islands, and those very large, called Bretannic, Albion and Ierna&quot;. The archipelago has been referred to by a single name for over 2,000&amp;nbsp;years: the term British Isles derives from terms used by classical geographers to describe this island group. [[Pliny the Elder]] (c. 23–79 AD) in his '' [[Natural History (Pliny)|Natural History]]'' (iv.xvi.102) records of Great Britain: &quot;It was itself named Albion, while all the islands about which we shall soon briefly speak were called the Britanniae.&quot; The earliest known name of Great Britain is ''[[Albion]]'' (Ἀλβίων) or ''insula Albionum'', from either the Latin ''albus'' meaning white (referring to the [[white cliffs of Dover]], the first view of Britain from the continent) or the &quot;island of the ''Albiones''&quot;, first mentioned in the ''[[Massaliote Periplus]]'' and by [[Pytheas]].&lt;ref name=&quot;snyder&quot;&gt;{{Cite book | last = Snyder | first = Christopher A. | title = The Britons | publisher = [[Blackwell Publishing]] | year = 2003 | isbn = 0-631-22260-X }}&lt;/ref&gt; The name ''Britain'' descends from the Latin name for Britain, ''Brittania'' or ''Brittānia'', the land of the Britons. [[Old French]] ''Bretaigne'' (whence also [[Modern French]] ''Bretagne'') and [[Middle English]] ''Bretayne, авBreteyne''. The French form replaced the [[Old English]] ''Breoton, Breoten, Bryten, Breten'' (also ''Breoton-lond, Breten-lond''). Brittania was used by the Romans from the 1st century BC for the British Isles taken together. It is derived from the travel writings of the [[ancient Greece|ancient Greek]] [[Pytheas]] around 320 BC, which described various islands in the North Atlantic as far North as [[Thule]] (probably [[Iceland]]). The peoples of these islands of ''Prettanike'' were called the Πρεττανοι, ''[[Priteni]]'' or ''Pretani''.&lt;ref name=snyder/&gt; ''Priteni'' is the source of the [[Welsh language]] term [[Prydain]], ''Britain'', which has the same source as the [[Goidelic languages|Goidelic]] term [[Cruithne (people)|Cruithne]] used to refer to the early [[Brythonic languages|Brythonic]] speaking inhabitants of Ireland.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book | last = Foster (editor) | first = R F | authorlink = | coauthors = Donnchadh O Corrain, Professor of Irish History at University College Cork: (Chapter 1: ''Prehistoric and Early Christian Ireland'') | title = The Oxford History of Ireland | publisher = Oxford University Press | date = 1 November 2001 | location = | url = | doi = | isbn = 0-19-280202-X }}&lt;/ref&gt; The latter were later called [[Picts]] or [[Caledonians]] by the [[Ancient Rome|Romans]]. ===Derivation of &quot;Great&quot;=== After the [[Old English]] period, ''Britain'' was used as a historical term only. [[Geoffrey of Monmouth]] in his [[pseudohistory|pseudohistorical]] ''[[Historia Regum Britanniae]]'' (''c.''&amp;nbsp;1136) refers to the island of Great Britain as ''Britannia major'' (&quot;Greater Britain&quot;), to distinguish it from ''Britannia minor'' (&quot;Lesser Britain&quot;), the continental region which approximates to modern [[Brittany]]. The term &quot;Great Britain&quot; was first used officially in 1474, in the instrument drawing up the proposal for a marriage between [[Cecily Neville|Cecily]] the daughter of [[Edward IV of England]], and [[James IV of Scotland|James]] the son of [[James III of Scotland]], which described it as &quot;this Nobill Isle, callit Gret Britanee.&quot; It was used again in 1604, when [[James I of England|King James VI and I]], in a deliberate attempt to impose a term which would unite his double inheritance of the kingdoms of Scotland and England, proclaimed his assumption of the throne in the style &quot;King of Great Britain, France, and Ireland&amp;nbsp;...&quot;&lt;ref name=hay&gt;[http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/PSAS_2002/pdf/vol_089/89_055_066.pdf Denys Hay, ''The use of the term &quot;Great Britain&quot; in the Middle Ages'', Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland, 1955-56, pp.55-66]&lt;/ref&gt; ===Use of the term ''Great Britain''=== &quot;Great Britain&quot; refers to the majority of the &quot;[[United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland]]&quot; (UK). It refers to the largest island only, or to England, Scotland and Wales as a unit (though these three countries also include many smaller islands). It does not include Northern Ireland.&lt;ref&gt;Britain 2001:The Official Handbook of the United Kingdom, 2001, ONS/Her Majesty's Stationary Office, London, ISBN 0&lt;/ref&gt; In 1975 the government affirmed that the term [[Britain (disambiguation)|Britain]], not Great Britain, could be used as a shortened form of the United Kingdom.&lt;ref&gt;Britain 2001: The Official Handbook of the United Kingdom, 2001, ONS/Her Majesty's Stationary Office, London, ISBN 011 621278 0&lt;/ref&gt; [[British (disambiguation)|British]] refers to all citizens of the United Kingdom — including Welsh, Scottish, English, and Northern Irish.&lt;ref&gt;Britain 2001: The Official Yearbook of the United Kingdom, 2001, Office of National Statistics/Her Majesty's Stationary Office ISN 011 621278 0&lt;/ref&gt; The abbreviations '''GB''' and '''GBR''' are used in some international codes as a synonym for the United Kingdom. Examples include: [http://www.upu.int/post_code/en/list_of_sites_by_country.html#U Universal Postal Union], international sports teams, [[NATO]], the [[International Organization for Standardization]] country codes [[ISO 3166-2:GB|ISO 3166-2]] and [[ISO 3166-1 alpha-3]], and [[List of international license plate codes|international licence plate codes]], among others. On the Internet, [[.uk]] is used as a [[country code top-level domain]] for the United Kingdom. A '''[[.gb]]''' top-level domain was also used to a limited extent in the past, but this is now effectively obsolete because the domain name registrar will not take new registrations. ==Biodiversity== ===Fauna=== {{Main|Fauna of Great Britain}} [[File:Robin, Leighton Moss January 2009.jpg|165px|right|thumb|The [[European Robin|Robin]] is popularly known as &quot;Britain's favourite bird&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=The Robin - Britain's Favourite Bird|url=http://www.britishbirdlovers.co.uk/articles/the-robin-britains-favourite-bird.html|publisher=BritishBirdLovers.co.uk}} Retrieved on 1&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt;]] Animal [[Biodiversity|diversity]] is modest, as a result of factors including the island's small land area, the relatively recent age of the habitats developed since the last [[Ice Age]] and the island's physical separation from [[continental Europe]], and the effects of seasonal variability.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=Decaying Wood: An Overview of Its Status and Ecology in the United Kingdom and Europe|url=http://www.fs.fed.us/psw/publications/documents/gtr-181/004_Butler.pdf|publisher=FS.fed.us}} Retrieved on 1&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; Great Britain has also gone through [[industrialisation]] and increasing [[urbanisation]], which have contributed towards the overall loss of species.&lt;ref name=&quot;animals&quot;&gt;{{Cite web|title=A Short History of the British Mammal Fauna |url=http://www.abdn.ac.uk/mammal/history.shtml|publisher=ABDN.ac.uk}} Retrieved on 1&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; A [[DEFRA]] study from 2006 suggested that 100 species have become extinct in the UK during the 20th century, about 100 times the [[background extinction rate]].&lt;ref&gt;[[DEFRA]], 2006&lt;/ref&gt; However, some species, such as the [[brown rat]], [[red fox]], and introduced [[eastern gray squirrel|grey squirrel]], are well adapted to urban areas. [[Rodents]] make up 40% of the total number of [[List of mammals of Great Britain|mammal species in Great Britain]]. These include [[squirrel]]s, [[mice]], [[vole]]s, [[brown rat|rats]] and the recently reintroduced [[European beaver]].&lt;ref name=&quot;animals&quot; /&gt; There is also an abundance of [[European Rabbit|rabbits]], [[European Hare|hares]], [[West European Hedgehog|hedgehogs]], [[Common Shrew|shrews]], [[European Mole|moles]] and several species of [[bat]].&lt;ref name=&quot;animals&quot; /&gt; Carnivorous mammals include the [[red fox|fox]], [[Eurasian Badger|badger]], [[otter]], [[weasel]], [[stoat]] and elusive [[European Wildcat|wildcat]].&lt;ref name=&quot;else&quot;&gt;Else, ''Great Britain'', 85.&lt;/ref&gt; Various species of [[pinniped|seal]], [[whale]] and [[dolphin]] are found on or around British shores and coastlines. The largest land-based wild animals today are [[deer]]. The [[red deer]] is the largest species, with [[roe deer]] and [[fallow deer]] also prominent; the latter was introduced by the [[Normans]].&lt;ref name=&quot;else&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/archaeology/research/plants_fallow.php The Fallow Deer Project, University of Nottingham]&lt;/ref&gt; Habitat loss has affected many species. [[List of extinct animals of Britain|Extinct large mammals]] include the [[brown bear]], [[grey wolf]] and [[wild boar]]; the latter has had a limited reintroduction in recent times.&lt;ref name=&quot;animals&quot; /&gt; There is a wealth of [[List of birds of Great Britain|birdlife in Britain]], 583 species in total,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=British Ornithologists' Union Records Committee|url=http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/121577421/HTMLSTART?CRETRY=1&amp;SRETRY=0|publisher=Interscience.wiley.com}} Retrieved on 16&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; of which 258 breed on the island or remain during winter.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=Birds of Britain|url=http://www.bto.org/birdfacts/|publisher=BTO.org}} Retrieved on 16&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; Because of its mild winters for its latitude, Great Britain hosts important numbers of many wintering species, particularly [[duck]]s, [[goose|geese]] and [[swan]]s.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=Duck, Geese and Swan Family|url=http://www.naturegrid.org.uk/biodiversity/birds/ducks.htm|publisher=NatureGrid.org.uk}} Retrieved on 16&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; Other well known bird species include the [[golden eagle]], [[grey heron]], [[Common Kingfisher|kingfisher]], [[Rock Pigeon|pigeon]], [[House Sparrow|sparrow]], [[Common Pheasant|pheasant]], [[Grey Partridge|partridge]], and various species of [[crow]], [[finch]], [[gull]], [[auk]], [[grouse]], [[owl]] and [[falcon]].&lt;ref name=&quot;birds&quot;&gt;{{Cite web|title= Birds|url=http://www.naturegrid.org.uk/biodiversity/birdindex.html|publisher=NatureGrid.org.uk}} Retrieved on 16&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; There are six species of [[List of reptiles of Great Britain|reptile]] on the island; three [[snakes]] and three [[lizards]] including the legless [[slow worm]]. One snake, the [[Vipera berus|adder]], is venomous but rarely deadly.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=The Adder's Byte|url=http://www.countrysideinfo.co.uk/the1.htm|publisher=CountySideInfo.co.uk}} Retrieved on 1&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; [[List of amphibians of Great Britain|Amphibians]] present are [[common frog|frogs]], [[common toad|toads]] and [[Smooth newt|newts]].&lt;ref name=&quot;animals&quot; /&gt; ===Flora=== {{Main|List of the vascular plants of Britain and Ireland}} [[File:Heather (Highlands).jpg|155px|right|thumb|[[Calluna vulgaris|Heather]] growing wild in the [[Scottish Highlands|Highlands]] at [[Dornoch]].]] In a similar sense to fauna, and for similar reasons, the flora of Great Britain is impoverished compared to that of continental Europe.&lt;ref name=&quot;floraa&quot;&gt;{{Cite web|title=Plants of the Pacific Northwest in Western Europe|url=http://www.ou.edu/cas/botany-micro/ben/ben195.html|publisher=Botanical Electric News}} Retrieved on 23&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; Great Britain's flora comprises 3,354 [[vascular plant]] species, of which 2,297 are native and 1,057 have been introduced into the island.&lt;ref name=&quot;frodin&quot;&gt;Frodin, ''Guide to Standard Floras of the World'', 599.&lt;/ref&gt; The island has a wide variety of [[trees of Britain and Ireland|trees]], including native species of [[birch]], [[beech]], [[fraxinus|ash]], [[Crataegus|hawthorn]], [[elm]], [[oak]], [[Common Yew|yew]], [[pine]], [[cherry tree|cherry]] and [[apple tree|apple]].&lt;ref name=&quot;tree&quot;&gt;{{Cite web|title=Checklist of British Plants|url=http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/life/plants-fungi/postcode-plants/checklist-british-plants.html|publisher=Natural History Museum}} Retrieved on 2&amp;nbsp;March 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; Other trees have been naturalised, introduced especially from other parts of Europe (particularly Norway) and North America. Introduced trees include several varieties of pine, [[Sweet Chestnut|chestnut]], [[Acer platanoides|maple]], [[Norway Spruce|spruce]], [[Acer pseudoplatanus|sycamore]] and [[fir]], as well as [[cherry plum]] and [[European Pear|pear trees]].&lt;ref name=&quot;tree&quot; /&gt; The tallest species are the [[Douglas fir]]s; two specimens have been recorded measuring 65 metres or 212 feet.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=Facts About Britain's Trees|url=http://www.wildaboutbritain.co.uk/facts_about_britains_trees|publisher=WildAboutBritain.co.uk}} Retrieved on 2&amp;nbsp;March 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; The [[Fortingall Yew]] in [[Perthshire]] is the oldest tree in Europe.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=The Fortingall Yew|url=http://www.perthshirebigtreecountry.co.uk/index.asp?pg=26|publisher=PerthshireBigTreeCountry.co.uk}} Retrieved on 23&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; There are at least 1,500 different species of [[wildflower]] in Britain,&lt;ref name=&quot;flowepow&quot;&gt;{{Cite web|title=Facts and Figures about Wildflowers|url=http://www.wildaboutbritain.co.uk/facts_and_figures_about_wildflowers|publisher=WildAboutFlowers.co.uk}} Retrieved on 23&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; Some 107 species are particularly rare or vulnerable and are protected by the [[Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981]]. It is illegal to uproot any wildflowers without the landowner's permission.&lt;ref name=&quot;flowepow&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=Endangered British Wild Flowers|url=http://www.countrylovers.co.uk/hort/edgrflwr.htm|publisher=CountryLovers.co.uk}} Retrieved on 23&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; A vote in 2002 nominated various wildflowers to represent specific counties.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=County Flowers of Great Britain|url=http://www.wildaboutbritain.co.uk/county_flowers_great_britain|publisher=WildAboutFlowers.co.uk}} Retrieved on 23&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; These include [[Common Poppy|red poppies]], [[Common Bluebell|bluebells]], [[Bellis perennis|daisies]], [[Narcissus (genus)|daffodils]], [[Bog Rosemary|rosemary]], [[gorse]], [[iris (plant)|iris]], [[ivy]], [[Mentha|mint]], [[orchid]]s, [[bramble]]s, [[thistle]]s, [[buttercup]]s, [[primula vulgaris|primrose]], [[thyme]], [[tulips]], [[viola (plant)|violets]], [[Primula veris|cowslip]], [[Calluna vulgaris|heather]] and many more.&lt;ref name=&quot;flora&quot;&gt;{{Cite web|title=People and Plants: Mapping the UK's wild flora|url=http://www.plantlife.org.uk/uk/assets/saving-species/saving-species-publications/People-and-plants-mapping-the-UKs-flora.pdf|publisher=PlantLife.org.uk}} Retrieved on 23&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=British Wildflower Images|url=http://www.map-reading.co.uk/wildflowers/|publisher=Map-Reading.co.uk}} Retrieved on 23&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=List of British Wildlfowers by Common Name|url=http://www.wildaboutbritain.co.uk/wildflower/common-names|publisher=WildAboutBritain.co.uk}} Retrieved on 23&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=British Plants and algae|url=http://www.arkive.org/british-species/plants-and-algae/|publisher=Arkive.org}} Retrieved on 23&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; There are also many species of [[algae]], [[lichens]], [[fungi]] and [[mosses]] across the island.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=Lichen|url=http://www.yorkshiredales.org.uk/index/learning_about/nature_in_the_dales/species/fungi_and_lichen/lichen.htm|publisher=YorkshireDales.org.uk}} Retrieved on 23&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; ==Religion== {{Main|Religion in England|Religion in Scotland|Religion in Wales}} [[File:Canterbury Cathedral 01.JPG|150px|right|thumb|[[Canterbury Cathedral]], seat of the [[Church of England|Anglican Church]] &amp;ndash; the island's largest denomination]] [[Christianity]] is the largest religion on the island and has been since the Early Middle Ages, though its existence on the island dates back to the Roman introduction in antiquity and continued through [[Early Insular Christianity]]. The largest form practiced in present day Britain is [[Anglicanism]] (also known as [[Scottish Episcopal Church|Episcopalism]] in Scotland), dating from the 16th century [[English Reformation|Reformation]] period, the religion regards itself as both [[Catholic]] and [[Reformed]]. Head of the Church is the monarch of the United Kingdom as the [[Supreme Governor of the Church of England|Supreme Governor]]. It has the status of [[established church]] in England. There are just over 26 million adherents to Anglicanism in Britain today.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=Global Anglicanism at a Crossroads|url=http://pewresearch.org/pubs/896/global-anglicanism-at-a-crossroads|publisher=PewResearch.org}} Retrieved on 1&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; The second largest Christian practice in Britain is the [[Latin Rite]] of the [[Roman Catholic Church]] which traces its formal, corporate history in Great Britain to the 6th century with [[Augustine of Canterbury|Augustine's mission]] and was the main religion on the island for around a thousand years. There are over 5 million adherents in Britain today; 4.5 million in [[Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales|England and Wales]]&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|title=People here 'must obey the laws of the land'|url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1578212/People-here-must-obey-the-laws-of-the-land.html|publisher=[[Telegraph]] | location=London | date=9 February 2008 | accessdate=4 May 2010}} Retrieved on 1&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; and 750,000 in [[Roman Catholic Church in Scotland|Scotland]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=Cardinal not much altered by his new job|url=http://living.scotsman.com/features/Cardinal-not-much-altered-by.2573781.jp|publisher=Living Scotsman}} Retrieved on 1&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Saint Alban, window.jpg|thumb|left|150px|[[Saint Alban]] &amp;ndash; the first Christian saint from Britain]] The [[Church of Scotland]], a form of [[Protestantism]] with a [[Presbyterian]] system of ecclesiastical polity is the third most numerous on the island with around 2.1 million members.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=Analysis of Religion in the 2001 Census - Current Religion in Scotland|url=http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/02/20757/53570|publisher=Scotland.gov.uk}} Retrieved on 1&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; Introduced in Scotland by clergyman [[John Knox]], it has the status of national church in Scotland. The monarch of the United Kingdom is represented prominently by a [[Lord High Commissioner]]. [[Methodist Church of Great Britain|Methodism]] is the fourth largest and grew out of Anglicanism through [[John Wesley]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=The Methodist Church|url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/subdivisions/methodist_1.shtml|publisher=BBC.co.uk}} Retrieved on 1&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; It gained popularity in the old mill towns of [[Lancashire]] and [[Yorkshire]], also amongst tin miners in [[Cornwall]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=Methodism in Britain|url=http://www.goffsoakmethodistchurch.co.uk/page4.html|publisher=GoffsOakMethodistChurch.co.uk}} Retrieved on 1&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; The [[Presbyterian Church of Wales]], which follow [[Calvinistic Methodism]], is the largest denomination in [[Wales]]. There are other [[non-conformist]] minorities, such as [[Baptists]], [[Quakers]], the [[United Reformed Church]] (a union of [[Congregational church|Congregationalists]] and [[English Presbyterianism|English Presbyterians]]), [[Unitarianism|Unitarians]] and more.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=Cambridge History of Christianity|url=http://www.cambridge.org/uk/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9780521815000&amp;ss=exc|publisher=Hugh McLeod }} Retrieved on 1&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; The first [[patron saint]] of Great Britain was [[Saint Alban]].&lt;ref&gt;Dawkins, ''The Shakespeare Enigma'', 343.&lt;/ref&gt; He was the first Christian martyr dating from the [[Romano-British]] period, condemned to death for his faith and was sacrificed to the [[Roman mythology|pagan gods]].&lt;ref&gt;Butler, ''Butler's Lives of the Saints'', 141.&lt;/ref&gt; In more recent times, some have suggested the adoption of [[Aidan of Lindisfarne|Saint Aidan]] as another patron saint of Britain.&lt;ref name=&quot;aiden&quot;&gt;{{cite news|title=Cry God for Harry, Britain and... St Aidan|url=http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20080423/ai_n25349801/pg_1?tag=content;col1|publisher=[[The Independent]]}} {{Dead link|date=September 2010|bot=RjwilmsiBot}} Retrieved on 1&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; Originally from Ireland, he worked at [[Iona]] amongst the Dál Riata and then [[Lindisfarne]] where he restored Christianity to [[Northumbria]].&lt;ref name=&quot;aiden&quot; /&gt; Three constituent countries of the United Kingdom located on the island have patron saints; [[Saint George]] and [[Saint Andrew]] are represented in the flags of [[Flag of England|England]] and [[Flag of Scotland|Scotland]] respectively.&lt;ref name=&quot;flaghistory&quot;&gt;{{Cite web|title=United Kingdom - History of the Flag|url=http://flagspot.net/flags/gb-hist.html|publisher=FlagSpot.net}} Retrieved on 1&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; These two saintly flags combined form the basis of the Great Britain royal flag of 1604.&lt;ref name=&quot;flaghistory&quot; /&gt; [[Saint David]] is the patron saint of Wales.&lt;ref name=&quot;britsaints&quot; /&gt; There are many other British saints, some of the best known include; [[Cuthbert of Lindisfarne|Cuthbert]], [[Saint Columba|Columba]], [[Saint Patrick|Patrick]], [[Saint Margaret of Scotland|Margaret]], [[Edward the Confessor]], [[Saint Mungo|Mungo]], [[Thomas More]], [[Petroc]], [[Bede]] and [[Thomas Becket]].&lt;ref name=&quot;britsaints&quot;&gt;{{Cite web|title=Saints|url=http://www.britsattheirbest.com/heroes_adventurers/h_saints.htm|publisher=Brits at their Best}} Retrieved on 1&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Baitul Futuh.jpg|thumb|right|150px|[[Baitul Futuh]] &amp;ndash; the largest mosque in Western Europe&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|title=Western Europe's largest mosque opens in Morden|url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/oct/02/religion.world|publisher=guardian.co.uk|work=[[The Guardian]]|accessdate=3 April 2010 | location=London | date=2 October 2003}}&lt;/ref&gt;]] Numerous non-Christian religions are practised in Great Britain. [[Judaism]] has a history of a small minority on the island since 1070.&lt;ref name=&quot;jews&quot;&gt;{{Cite web|title=From Expulsion (1290) to Readmission (1656): Jews and England|url=http://www.goldsmiths.ac.uk/history/350th-anniversary.pdf|publisher=Goldsmiths.ac.uk}} Retrieved on 1&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; The Jews were [[Edict of Expulsion|expelled]] from England in 1290 until being allowed to return in 1656.&lt;ref name=&quot;jews&quot; /&gt; Their history in Scotland is quite obscure until later migrations from [[Lithuania]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=Jews in Scotland|url=http://www.british-jewry.org.uk/britishjewry/geography/scotland.htm|publisher=British-Jewry.org.uk}} Retrieved on 1&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; Especially since the 1950s religions from the [[British Empire|former colonies]] have become more prevalent; [[Islam]] is the most common of these with around 1.5 million adherents in Britain.&lt;ref name=&quot;easternreligion&quot;&gt;{{Cite web|title=Religion: Key Statistics for urban areas, results by population size of urban area|url=http://www.statistics.gov.uk/STATBASE/ssdataset.asp?vlnk=8288|publisher=Statistics.gov.uk}} Retrieved on 1&amp;nbsp;February 2009.&lt;/ref&gt; A total of more than 1 million people practise either [[Hinduism]], [[Sikhism]] or [[Buddhism]], religions introduced from [[India]] and [[South East Asia]].&lt;ref name=&quot;easternreligion&quot; /&gt; ==Settlements== {{See also|List of largest United Kingdom settlements by population}} ===Capital cities=== * United Kingdom: London The capitals of the three [[countries of the United Kingdom]] within Great Britain are: * England: [[London]] * Scotland: [[Edinburgh]] * Wales: [[Cardiff]] ===Other major cities=== The major urban areas with a population of over 350,000 in Great Britain (not including the capital cities listed above) are [[Birmingham]], [[Bristol]], [[Glasgow]], [[Leeds]], [[Liverpool]], [[Manchester]], and [[Sheffield]]. ==See also== * [[List of islands of England]] * [[List of islands of Scotland]] * [[List of islands of Wales]] ==References== ===Footnotes=== {{Reflist|colwidth=30em}} ===Bibliography=== {{Refbegin|2}} * {{Cite book|title=[[Natural History (Pliny)|Natural History]] |last= [[Pliny the Elder]] (translated by Rackham, Harris)|first=|year=1938 |publisher=Harvard University Press}} * {{Cite book|title=The Celtic Languages |last=Ball, Martin John |first=|year=1994|publisher=Routledge|isbn=0415010357}} * {{Cite book|title=Butler's Lives of the Saints |last= Butler, Alban|first=|year=1997 |publisher=Continuum International Publishing Group|isbn=0860122557}} * {{Cite book|title=Guide to Standard Floras of the World |last= Frodin, DG|first=|year=2001 |publisher=Cambridge University Press|isbn=0521790778}} * {{Cite book|title= British Food: An Extraordinary Thousand Years of History |last= Spencer, Colin|first=|year=2003|publisher=Columbia University Press|isbn=0231131100}} * {{Cite book|title=The Rough Guide to Britain|last= Andrews, Robert|first=|year=2004 |publisher=Rough Guides Ltd|isbn=1843533014}} * {{Cite book|title=The Shakespeare Enigma|last= Dawkins, Peter|first=|year=2004 |publisher=Polair Publishing|isbn=0954538943}} * {{Cite book|title=History in Quotations|last=Major, John |first=|year=2004|publisher=Cassell|isbn=0304353876}} * {{Cite book|title= Great Britain |last=Else, David |first=|year=2005|publisher=Lonely Planet|isbn=1740599217}} * {{Cite book|title=Britain and the Americas: Culture, Politics, and History |last=Kaufman, Will &amp; Macpherson Slettedahl, Heidi| first=| year=2005 |publisher=ABC-CLIO| isbn=1851094318}} * {{Cite book|title=Origins of the British|last=[[Stephen Oppenheimer|Oppenheimer, Stephen]]| first=| year=2006 |publisher=Carroll &amp; Graf| isbn=0786718900}} * {{Cite book|title= Placenames of the World|last=Room, Adrian|first=|year=2006|publisher=McFarland|isbn=0786422483}} * {{Cite book|title= A Book of the Beginnings, Vol.1|last=Massey, Gerald |first=|year=2007|publisher=Cosimo|isbn=1602068291}} * {{Cite book|title=Names and Their Histories: A Handbook of Historical Geography and Topographical Nomenclature |last=Taylor, Issac |first=|year=2008|publisher=BiblioBazaar|isbn=0559296673}} {{Refend}} ==External links== {{Commons}} * [http://learningobjects.wesleyan.edu/makingofbritain/ Interactive map of Great Britain] * [http://www.bbc.co.uk/coast Coast] – the BBC explores the coast of Great Britain * [http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/freegb/index.htm#maps Administrative map of Great Britain] – from the [[Ordnance Survey]]; various formats * [http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/state/nations/ BBC Nations]{{Dead link|date=July 2009}} * [http://www.macs.hw.ac.uk/britishisles/ The British Isles] * [https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/uk.html CIA Factbook United Kingdom] {{British Isles}} {{Use dmy dates|date=August 2010}} {{United Kingdom topics}} {{Coord|53.826|N|2.422|W|display=title|source:dewiki_scale:5000000}} [[Category:Great Britain| ]] [[Category:Islands]] [[Category:Northern Europe]] [[Category:Western Europe]] [[af:Groot-Brittanje]] [[ang:Bryten]] [[ar:بريطانيا العظمى]] [[ast:Gran Bretaña]] [[bn:গ্রেট ব্রিটেন]] [[zh-min-nan:Britain]] [[be:Востраў Вялікабрытанія]] [[be-x-old:Вялікабрытанія (выспа)]] [[bs:Velika Britanija]] [[br:Breizh-Veur]] [[bg:Великобритания (остров)]] [[ca:Gran Bretanya]] [[cv:Аслă Британи (утрав)]] [[cs:Velká Británie (ostrov)]] [[cy:Prydain Fawr]] [[da:Storbritannien (ø)]] [[de:Großbritannien (Insel)]] [[et:Suurbritannia saar]] [[es:Gran Bretaña]] [[eo:Britio (insulo)]] [[eu:Britainia Handia]] [[fa:بریتانیای کبیر]] [[fr:Grande-Bretagne]] [[ga:An Bhreatain]] [[gd:Breatainn Mhòr]] [[gl:Gran Bretaña - Great Britain]] [[ko:그레이트브리튼 섬]] [[hr:Velika Britanija (otok)]] [[id:Pulau Britania Raya]] [[ia:Grande Britannia]] [[is:Stóra-Bretland]] [[it:Gran Bretagna]] [[he:בריטניה הגדולה]] [[kn:ಗ್ರೇಟ್ ಬ್ರಿಟನ್‌]] [[ka:დიდი ბრიტანეთი (კუნძული)]] [[kw:Breten Veur]] [[sw:Britania]] [[ku:Brîtanya (girav)]] [[la:Britannia Maior]] [[lv:Lielbritānija (sala)]] [[lt:Didžioji Britanija (sala)]] [[li:Groeët-Brittannië]] [[lmo:Gran Bretagna]] [[hu:Brit-sziget]] [[mk:Велика Британија (остров)]] [[ml:ഗ്രേറ്റ് ബ്രിട്ടൺ]] [[mr:ग्रेट ब्रिटन]] [[arz:بريطانيا العظمى]] [[nl:Groot-Brittannië]] [[nds-nl:Groot-Brittannie]] [[ne:ग्रेट ब्रिटेन]] [[ja:グレートブリテン島]] [[no:Storbritannia (øy)]] [[nn:Øya Storbritannia]] [[nrm:Grande Brétangne]] [[oc:Grand Bretanha]] [[tpi:Bikpela Briten]] [[nds:Grootbritannien]] [[pl:Wielka Brytania (wyspa)]] [[pt:Grã-Bretanha]] [[kaa:Ullı Britaniya]] [[ro:Marea Britanie]] [[rmy:Bari Britaniya]] [[rm:Gronda Britannia]] [[qu:Hatun Britanya]] [[ru:Великобритания (остров)]] [[sco:Great Breetain]] [[sq:Britania e madhe (ishull)]] [[scn:Gran Britagna (ìsula)]] [[simple:Great Britain]] [[sk:Veľká Británia (ostrov)]] [[sl:Velika Britanija]] [[szl:Wjelgo Brytańijo (wyspa)]] [[ckb:بریتانیای مەزن]] [[sr:Велика Британија]] [[sh:Britanija (otok)]] [[fi:Iso-Britannia (saari)]] [[sv:Storbritannien (ö)]] [[tl:Gran Britanya]] [[tt:Бөек Британия (утрау)]] [[th:บริเตนใหญ่]] [[tg:Британияи Кабир]] [[to:Pilitānia]] [[tr:Büyük Britanya Adası]] [[tk:Beýik Britaniýa]] [[uk:Великобританія (острів)]] [[vi:Đảo Anh]] [[wa:Grande Burtaegne]] [[vls:Grôot-Brittannië]] [[yi:גרויסבריטאניע]] [[yo:Erékùṣù Brítánì Olókìkí]] [[bat-smg:Dėdliuojė Brėtanėjė]] [[zh:大不列顛島]]</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Now_That%27s_What_I_Call_Music!_77_(UK_series)&diff=394386826</id> <title>Now That's What I Call Music! 77 (UK series)</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Now_That%27s_What_I_Call_Music!_77_(UK_series)&diff=394386826"/> <updated>2010-11-02T14:52:21Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Reverted to revision 393318418 by TFOWR; Unreleased speculation, per WP:CRYSTAL, etc. (TW) <hr /> <div>#REDIRECT [[Now That's What I Call Music! discography#Original series]]</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gay_and_Lesbian_Kingdom_of_the_Coral_Sea_Islands&diff=394385013</id> <title>Gay and Lesbian Kingdom of the Coral Sea Islands</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gay_and_Lesbian_Kingdom_of_the_Coral_Sea_Islands&diff=394385013"/> <updated>2010-11-02T14:39:37Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Reverted good faith edits by 86.28.207.38 (talk); WP:CITE says &quot;David Smith&quot;. (TW) <hr /> <div>{{More footnotes|date=June 2008}} {| class=&quot;infobox&quot; cellpadding=&quot;4&quot; style=&quot;width:300px; border-collapse:collapse; font-size:95%;&quot; |+ style=&quot;font-size: 160%; margin-left: inherit;&quot; | Gay &amp; Lesbian Kingdom&lt;br /&gt;of the Coral Sea Islands''' |- | colspan=&quot;2&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;| [[Image:Gay flag.svg|149px|Flag]]&lt;br&gt; Flag |- | colspan=&quot;2&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center; font-size:95%;&quot;| Anthem: &quot;I Am What I Am&quot;'' |- | '''Type of entity:''' | [[Micronation]] |- | '''Location:''' | [[Coral Sea Islands]] |- | '''Area claimed:''' | Coral Sea Island Territory |- | '''Membership:''' | Gay &amp; Lesbian people |- | '''Date of foundation:''' | 14 June 2004 |- | '''Leadership:''' | Emperor Dale I&lt;br /&gt;(Dale Parker Anderson) |- | '''Purported organisational structure:''' | [[Constitutional monarchy]] |- | '''Language:''' | [[English language|English]] |- | '''Purported currency:''' | [[Euro]] |} The '''Gay and Lesbian Kingdom of the Coral Sea Islands''' is a [[micronation]] established as a symbolic political protest by a group of [[gay rights]] activists based in southeast [[Queensland]] [[Australia]]. It is an expression of [[Queer nationalism]]. ==History== [[Image:Coral inset.jpg|left|thumb|Map of the claimed 'kingdom']] [[Image:GLKStamps.jpg|left|thumb|Set of nine stamps from the GLK]] On June 14, 2004, a group of angry gay Australians, disillusioned by their mistreatment at the hands of their government, set sail aboard a ship called the Gayflower in search of a more hospitable land.&lt;ref name=&quot;superdrewby1&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.superdrewby.com/column/queernation.shtml |title=The Birth of a Queer Nation, ''The Pink Paper'', London|publisher=Superdrewby.com |date=28 September 2004 |accessdate=8 August 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; That day, the group claimed the [[Coral Sea Islands|Coral Sea Island Territory]] and seceded from Australia after sailing to the largest island in the group and raising the [[Rainbow flag (gay movement)|rainbow flag]] there. One of the group's members, Dale Parker Anderson (born 1965), was declared Emperor, as Dale I. The &quot;secession&quot; was staged in protest at a decision to ban [[same-sex marriage]] made by the Australian federal parliament.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&amp;q=cache:D1lmgc3rH3wJ:epress.lib.uts.edu.au/ojs/index.php/mcs/article/download/883/1234+gay+and+lesbian+kingdom+sovereignty&amp;hl=en&amp;gl=us&amp;pid=bl&amp;srcid=ADGEESixiu26oW350SpLDrETLGNxivMHpOxQgX_ghkQRxwQTCGRfdKqq_jaYjn3wfqa_32NpGZctnzS4iUzuKQZ9vyqUwj5grMriICaQCDCk2YFcufvS_GSRt1hAt3-BtmBqUwFBBwee&amp;sig=AHIEtbT0RKfkYnDdRpsjX3eCN-8QfCPZEA |title=Powered by Google Docs |publisher=Docs.google.com |date= |accessdate=8 August 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; In response to the Australian legislative ban on same-sex marriage, Emperor Dale I justified the decision to secede from Australian sovereignty by issuing the statement: “We live under a regime of apartheid. Homophobia is nothing less than sexual racism. We are people first and foremost. We work, we have lives, we love and have relationships. We are family. Yet, despite being citizens, voters and taxpayers, lesbian and gay Australians do not have the same rights that heterosexual people take for granted.” &lt;ref name=&quot;superdrewby1&quot;/&gt; Coinciding with the decision to secede from Australian sovereignty, the Kingdom's founders drafted a Declaration of Independence.&lt;ref name=&quot;gay-news1&quot;&gt;{{cite web|author=Gay News |url=http://www.gay-news.com/article04.php?sid=1012 |title=Gay News :: Gay Kingdom Declares War On Australia |publisher=Gay-news.com |date= |accessdate=8 August 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; The Declaration begins, &quot;Homosexual people have honestly endeavoured everywhere to merge ourselves in the social life of surrounding communities and to be treated equally. We are not permitted to do so. In vain we are loyal patriots, our loyalty in some places running to extremes; in vain do we make the same sacrifices of life and property as our fellow citizens; in vain do we strive to increase the fame of our native land in science and art, or her wealth by trade and commerce. In countries where we have lived for centuries, we are still cried down as strangers... In the world as it is now and for an indefinite period... I think we shall not be left in peace.”&lt;ref name=&quot;gay-news1&quot;/&gt; Inspired by its American counterpart, the Kingdom's Declaration of Independence also states: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”&lt;ref name=&quot;gay-news1&quot;/&gt; The kingdom's claims are not recognised by any state, and as of yet no permanent settlement has been established. While the main island of the Kingdom consists of less than three square kilometers in area, the larger archipelago of the Coral Sea Islands is a cluster of uninhabited sandbanks whose collective area spans over 780,000 square kilometers—roughly the size of Norway and Sweden put together.&lt;ref name=&quot;superdrewby1&quot;/&gt; The capital of the Gay and Lesbian Kingdom of the Coral Sea Islands, Heaven Island, is approximately the size of the city of London.&lt;ref name=&quot;superdrewby1&quot;/&gt; The kingdom issued its first stamps in July 2006 &quot;with the aim of creating a high and distinctive reputation amongst the philatelic fraternity&quot;. The kingdom's website says that tourism, fishing and philatelic sales are its only economic activities. However, swimming, reef walking, lagoon snorkeling, bird-watching, seashell-collecting, and shipwreck-exploring are all government-sanctioned non-economic activities.&lt;ref name=&quot;google1&quot;&gt;{{Cite book|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=5ZRrwrlIPSYC&amp;pg=PT23&amp;lpg=PT23&amp;dq=gay+and+lesbian+kingdom+of+the+coral+sea+islands&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=GptgkFx-JR&amp;sig=lE8y1_jaXG6otkFnc1kieHpDpRc&amp;hl=en&amp;ei=HqvxS4LKCIOKlwf5rei0CA&amp;sa=X&amp;oi=book_result&amp;ct=result&amp;resnum=9&amp;ved=0CEwQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&amp;q=gay%20and%20lesbian%20kingdom%20of%20the%20coral%20sea%20islands&amp;f=false |title=Micronations - Google Books |publisher=Books.google.com |date= |accessdate=8 August 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; {{Clear}} In a scheme similar to Israel's right of return, a person is automatically granted permanent resident status and is immediately eligible for citizenship in the Gay and Lesbian Kingdom of the Coral Sea Islands simply by being gay or lesbian. There is no visa requirement to visit the Gay and Lesbian Kingdom of the Coral Sea Islands, but there is a requirement that visitors be gay or lesbian.&lt;ref name=&quot;google1&quot;/&gt; The Kingdom's Prime Minister, David Smith, has embraced the Kingdom's openness toward gay people worldwide. “Their sexuality is their passport,” he said.&lt;ref name=&quot;superdrewby1&quot;/&gt; The Kingdom's administration has issued official statements formally adopting a stance on a number of social and political issues. The administration has stated, &quot;His Majesty's gay government plans to give diplomatic recognition to [the] nations of Taiwan and Tibet, legalize euthanasia, and open its borders to gay immigration and ingathering of gay exiles. Every homosexual now has the right to emigrate to the kingdom and after his arrival should he desire to settle here may obtain permanent residence status. The Kingdom will also be a tax haven and will derive its income from other means.&quot; &lt;ref name=&quot;gaytoday1&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.gaytoday.com/viewpoint/091304vp.asp |title=Viewpoint |publisher=GayToday.com |date= |accessdate=8 August 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; The administration has also spoken with respect to military matters, stating that &quot;the Kingdom has declared itself neutral; it does however have a small army of gay activists located around the world it can call on in times of emergency. The Gay Kingdom has Consulates located in the major cities of most states and nations in the world. Most of the Consulates are located in the offices of the gay press (media/newspapers/magazines) of these nations.&quot; &lt;ref name=&quot;gaytoday1&quot;/&gt; The kingdom's national anthem is &quot;I Am What I Am&quot; by Gloria Gaynor.&lt;ref name=&quot;google1&quot;/&gt; Among the Gay and Lesbian Kingdom of the Coral Sea's most revered cultural treasures is a placard commemorating the historic raising of the rainbow flag on Cato Island, symbolizing the foundation of the kingdom as refuge for oppressed gays and lesbians worldwide.&lt;ref name=&quot;democraticunderground1&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=221x6050 |title=Will the U.N. recognize &quot;Gay &amp; Lesbian Kingdom&quot;? |publisher=Democratic Underground |date=12 August 1949 |accessdate=8 August 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; The text of the placard reads: &quot;&quot;The Gay Kingdom. On the 14th day of June 2004. at this the highest point in the Coral Sea , Emperor Dale Parker Anderson raised the gay rainbow flag and claimed the Islands of the Coral Sea in his name as homeland for the gay and lesbian peoples of the world. God Save our King!&quot; &lt;ref name=&quot;democraticunderground1&quot;/&gt; The reigning Emperor, Dale I, is currently single. However, should he ultimately marry, by official law of the Kingdom, his husband would be given the title of &quot;Serene Highness The Prince Consort. Previous monarchs have been King Simon and his consort, Queen Keith.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;gay-news1&quot;/&gt; == See also == {{Portal box|LGBT|Micronations}} *[[Timeline of LGBT history]] *[[Queer nationalism]] ==References== {{reflist}} {{refbegin}} * Squires, Nick, &quot;Mini-states Down Under are sure they can secede&quot;, ''The Daily Telegraph'', London, 24 February 2005. * Dapin, Mark, &quot;If at first you don't secede...&quot;, ''The Sydney Morning Herald - Good Weekend'', 12 February 2005, pp 47–50 * &quot;Micronations&quot;, Lonely Planet Publications, 2006. ISBN 1-74104-730-7, The Gay &amp; Lesbian Kingdom of the Coral Sea Islands, pages 39, 40, 41. * &quot;Welcome to Heaven, The Gay and Lesbian Kingdom of the Coral Sea Islands&quot;, ''Horizon Magazine'', Barcelona, Spain, June 2006, pp.&amp;nbsp;38 &amp; 39 . * &quot;Stamps of the Gay and Lesbian Kingdom of the Coral Sea Islands&quot;, ''Stamp News Australasia'', Melbourne, August 2006, Vol 53 No 8, pp.&amp;nbsp;34, 41 &amp; 42. * &quot;Royal Gay Mail&quot;, Philatelic Exporter, ''The World Stamp Trade Journal'', London, August 2006, p.&amp;nbsp;21. * &quot;Fantasy Island, The Gay Kingdom&quot;, ''Envy Man'', Las Vegas, 2006, issue 6. * &quot;Society, The Gay &amp; Lesbian Kingdom of the Coral Sea Islands&quot;, ''Marie Claire'' (Australia), Sydney, No 138 February 2007. {{refend}} ==External links== * [http://web.archive.org/web/20070627181837/http://www.gayandlesbiankingdom.com/ &quot;Gay &amp; Lesbian Kingdom&quot;] (version from [[archive.org]] 27 June 2007) {{Micronations}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Gay And Lesbian Kingdom Of The Coral Sea Islands}} [[Category:Coral Sea Islands]] [[Category:LGBT history in Australia]] [[Category:LGBT rights organizations]] [[Category:Micronations|Coral Sea Islands]] [[Category:Micronations in Australia|Coral Sea Islands]] [[Category:2004 establishments|Gay &amp; Lesbian Kingdom]] [[de:Gay &amp; Lesbian Kingdom of the Coral Sea Islands]] [[el:Ομοφυλοφιλικό και Λεσβιακό Βασίλειο των Νησιών της Θάλασσας των Κοραλλίων]] [[es:Reino gay y lésbico de las Islas del Mar del Coral]] [[fr:Royaume gay et lesbien des Îles de la mer de Corail]] [[it:Regno Gay e Lesbo delle Isole del Mar dei Coralli]] [[nl:Gay and Lesbian Kingdom of the Coral Sea Islands]] [[ru:Королевство геев и лесбиянок]] [[fi:Gay and Lesbian Kingdom of the Coral Sea Islands]] [[th:ราชอาณาจักรเกย์และเลสเบียนแห่งหมู่เกาะคอรัลซี]] [[zh-yue:珊瑚海群島同性戀王國]]</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:90.209.148.153&diff=394383712</id> <title>User talk:90.209.148.153</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:90.209.148.153&diff=394383712"/> <updated>2010-11-02T14:30:31Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Added welcome template to user talk page using TW <hr /> <div> == Welcome == Hello, 90.209.148.153, and [[Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers|welcome]] to Wikipedia! Thank you for [[Special:Contributions/90.209.148.153|your contributions]]. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Unfortunately, one or more of your edits to the page [[:English Defence League]] have not conformed to Wikipedia's '''[[WP:V|verifiability policy]]''', and have been reverted. Wikipedia articles should refer only to facts and interpretations that have been stated in print or on reputable websites or other forms of media. Always remember to provide a [[WP:RS|reliable source]] for quotations and for any material that is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed. Wikipedia also has a related policy against including [[WP:OR|original research]] in articles. If you are stuck and looking for help, please see the [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|guide for citing sources]] or come to the '''[[Wikipedia:New contributors' help page|new contributors' help page]]''', where experienced Wikipedians can answer any queries you have! Or, you can just type '''&lt;code&gt;{{tl|helpme}}&lt;/code&gt;''' on your user page, and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Here are a few other good links for newcomers: * [[Wikipedia:Five pillars|The five pillars of Wikipedia]] * [[Wikipedia:How to edit a page|How to edit a page]] * [[Help:Contents|Help pages]] * [[Wikipedia:Tutorial|Tutorial]] * [[Wikipedia:How to write a great article|How to write a great article]] * [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] I hope you enjoy editing here and being a [[Wikipedia:Wikipedians|Wikipedian]]! Please [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|sign your name]] on talk pages using four tildes (&lt;nowiki&gt;~~~~&lt;/nowiki&gt;); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have any questions, check out [[Wikipedia:Where to ask a question]] or ask me on [[User talk:TFOWR{{!}}my talk page]]. &lt;!-- Template:Welcomeunsourced --&gt; Again, welcome!&amp;nbsp; [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 14:30, 2 November 2010 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=English_Defence_League&diff=394383687</id> <title>English Defence League</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=English_Defence_League&diff=394383687"/> <updated>2010-11-02T14:30:23Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Reverted good faith edits by 90.209.148.153 (talk); Per WP:CITEs. (TW) <hr /> <div>{{Infobox organization |name = English Defence League |image = EDL4.jpg |size = 280px |caption = Protester and a police officer at an EDL march in [[Newcastle upon Tyne|Newcastle]], 29 May 2010. |motto = |formation = 27 June 2009 |headquarters = |type = [[Far Right in the United Kingdom|Far right]], [[Criticism of Islamism|Anti-Islamism]] |leader_title = |leader_name = |key_people =&quot;Tommy Robinson&quot;&lt;br /&gt; |website = [http://www.englishdefenceleague.org EnglishDefenceLeague.org] }} The '''English Defence League''' (EDL) is an [[Far right in the United Kingdom|English far-right]] single issue group formed in 2009.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/news/whereilive/8273411.Racist_graffiti_is_shame_of_Padgate |title=Racist graffiti is shame of Padgate (From Warrington Guardian) |publisher=Warringtonguardian.co.uk |date=2010-07-17 |accessdate=2010-08-01}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.uxbridgegazette.co.uk/west-london-news/local-uxbridge-news/2010/06/30/anti-islamic-group-blamed-for-st-george-s-day-riot-in-ruislip-113046-26759981/ |title=Anti-Islamic group blamed for St George's Day 'riot' in Ruislip |publisher=Uxbridge Gazette |date= |accessdate=2010-08-01}}&lt;/ref&gt; Its stated aim is to oppose what it considers to be the spread of [[Islamism]], [[Sharia]] law and [[Islamic extremism]] in England.&lt;ref name=Newsnight /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;BBC 20091012&quot; /&gt; The EDL uses street-based marches against what the EDL labels as [[Muslim]] [[extremism]].&lt;ref name=Guardian2 /&gt;&lt;ref name= BirminghamPost1 /&gt; It presents itself as being multi-ethnic and multi-faith,&lt;ref name=&quot;BBC 20091012&quot; /&gt; and states that it opposes only &quot;[[jihad]]ists&quot;, not all Muslims.&lt;ref name=BBC1 /&gt; Nevertheless, EDL members were reported to have chanted &quot;We hate Muslims&quot; at pro-[[State of Palestine|Palestinian]] demonstrators in [[London]] on 13 September 2009.&lt;ref name=Guardian3 /&gt; EDL membership figures are not clear. In October 2009, the EDL claimed to have &quot;thousands&quot; of members in scores of branches,&lt;ref name=Telegraph4 /&gt; the organisation's spokesman Trevor Kelway, explained that about 300 active supporters attended demonstrations with strong support from [[Cardiff]], [[Swansea]], [[Luton]] and [[Portsmouth]].&lt;ref name=Guardian2 /&gt; At the time &quot;an analyst&quot; believed the group to have 300 to 500 active supporters that it could mobilise at any given time.&lt;ref name=Newsnight /&gt;&lt;ref name=Guardian2 /&gt; Police estimated 1,500 to 2,000 EDL demonstrators marched in [[Newcastle upon Tyne]] in May 2010.&lt;ref&gt;''Keeping to their marching orders'' [[Northern Echo]] May 31, 2010&lt;/ref&gt; The '''Scottish Defence League''' is an offshoot organisation formed to hold demonstrations in [[Glasgow]],&lt;ref name=Scotsman1 /&gt; while the '''Welsh Defence League''' was formed to demonstrate in [[Cardiff]], [[Newport]] and [[Swansea]].&lt;ref name=BBC8 /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Walesonline 10-18&quot; /&gt; The EDL also incorporates a &quot;Jewish Division&quot; which has its own Facebook page; however, this division is tiny and shunned by most Jewish groups.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/32535/edl-step-their-jewish-recruitment |title=EDL step up their Jewish recruitment &amp;#124; The Jewish Chronicle |publisher=Thejc.com |date=2010-06-03 |accessdate=2010-08-01}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/surfing-rabbi-rallies-with-british-anti-islam-group-outside-israel-embassy-1.320974]&lt;/ref&gt; The EDL was the subject of a 2010 [[BBC]] documentary, ''Young, British and Angry''.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00sh6xp |title=Three Programmes - Young, British and Angry |publisher=BBC |date= |accessdate=2010-08-01}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Formation== The EDL originated from a group named &quot;United Peoples of [[Luton]]&quot;, formed in response to a March 2009 protest against [[Royal Anglian Regiment]] troops returning from [[Helmand province campaign|the war in Afghanistan]]&lt;ref name=BBC5 /&gt; organised by the extremist Islamist [[Al-Muhajiroun]] and including members of [[Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah (organisation)|Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah]].&lt;ref name=Telegraph2 /&gt; The EDL evolved from the [[casual (subculture)|football casual]] subculture and is loosely organised around figures in [[Football hooliganism#England|hooligan firms]]. One of the organization’s principal strategists is Alan Lake, who has also advised the [[Sweden Democrats]] on tactics.&lt;ref name=Telegraph4 /&gt; When the Luton counter-demonstration led to arrests, local football supporters, using [[social networking]] websites, collaborated with other football casual groups, including those associated with hooliganism and the far right. A major turning point was a June 2009 demonstration in [[Birmingham]] by Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah that featured an 11 year old [[white people|white]] boy from Birmingham converting to Islam.&lt;ref name=&quot;BBC 20091012&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=BBC1/&gt;&lt;ref name=DailyMail1 /&gt; ==Protests== {{wikify|section}} {| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;text-align: center&quot; |- !Date !Location !Attendance !Arrests at event (includes non-EDL) !Description of event |- |8 August 2009 |[[Birmingham]] |Unknown |35&lt;ref name=Telegraph1 /&gt;&lt;ref name=Guardian4 /&gt; |Counter protest by, and clashes with, UAF supporters.&lt;ref name=Telegraph1 /&gt;&lt;ref name=Guardian4 /&gt; |- |5 September 2009 |Birmingham |Unknown |90&lt;ref name=BirminghamMail1 /&gt;&lt;ref name=BBC2 /&gt;&lt;ref name=BBC3 /&gt; |Clashes with socialist protestors,&lt;ref name=Mercury1 /&gt; West Midlands police state the EDL &quot;...had no intent to protest&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;autogenerated1&quot;&gt;''File on Four'', BBC Radio 4, 22 September 2009&lt;/ref&gt; 45 arrested were from the EDL a similar number were arrested belonged to groups opposing them.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|author=Mark Cowan |url=http://www.birminghammail.net/news/top-stories/2009/09/07/police-were-today-studying-cctv-footage-in-a-bid-to-identify-more-of-the-hooligans-involved-in-the-violent-clashes-97319-24626092/ |title=News - Top Stories - POLICE were today studying CCTV footage in a bid to identify more of the hooligans involved in the violent clashes |publisher=Birmingham Mail |date= |accessdate=2010-08-01}}&lt;/ref&gt; |- |13 September 2009 |London |Unknown |Zero |Counter demonstration to pro-Palestinian rally. Chants of &quot;We hate Muslims&quot; and &quot;Muslim Bombers off our streets&quot;.&lt;ref name=Guardian3 /&gt; |- |10 October 2009 |[[Manchester]] |700&lt;ref name=bbc10 /&gt; |48&lt;ref name=bbc10 /&gt; |Counter-protest by 1,400 UAF.&lt;ref name=bbc10 /&gt; Riot police on hand to separate sides.&lt;ref name=bbc10 /&gt; Policing cost was estimated at £200,000. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/8303150.stm] |- |31 October 2009 |[[Leeds]] |900&lt;ref name=BBC11 /&gt;&lt;ref name=WYP1 /&gt; |9&lt;ref name=BBC11 /&gt;&lt;ref name=WYP1 /&gt; |Counter-protested by 1,500 UAF. Leeds council and West Yorkshire Police thanked the public and participants &quot;for their patience and consideration&quot;.&lt;ref name=BBC11 /&gt;&lt;ref name=WYP1 /&gt; The policing costs were estimated at a total of £300,000. [http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/Bill-for-policing-Bradford-demonstrations.6504794.jp] The protest was controversial as a tree which had been erected in [[Leeds City Square|City Square]] with the intention to decorate it as a Christmas tree at a later date had to be taken down to accommodate the protest. |- |5 December 2009 |[[Nottingham]] |500&lt;ref name=Guardian5 /&gt; |11&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/English-Defence-League-Protest-Turns-Violent-In-Nottingham/Article/200912115492565 |title=English Defence League Protest Turns Violent In Nottingham &amp;#124; UK News &amp;#124; Sky News |publisher=News.sky.com |date= |accessdate=2010-08-01}}&lt;/ref&gt; |Demonstration following Mercian Regiment homecoming parade, clashes with Asian students and UAF. Policing cost estimated at £1 million.&lt;ref name=Guardian5 /&gt; |- |23 January 2010 |[[Stoke-on-Trent]] |1,500&lt;ref name=&quot;autogenerated2&quot;&gt;{{cite news | title=Trouble at Stoke-on-Trent English Defence League rally | publisher=BBC | date=24 January 2010 | url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/staffordshire/8476873.stm }}&lt;/ref&gt; |17&lt;ref name=&quot;autogenerated2&quot;/&gt; |EDL break through police lines, injure police officers and damage police vehicles.&lt;ref name=&quot;autogenerated2&quot;/&gt; All arrests were &quot;linked&quot; to the EDL demonstration.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/staffordshire/8476873.stm |title=Trouble at Stoke-on-Trent English Defence League rally |publisher=BBC News |date=2010-01-24 |accessdate=2010-08-01}}&lt;/ref&gt; The policing cost came to £196,631. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/staffordshire/8521919.stm] Approximately 300 from [[Unite Against Fascism]] held a counter demonstration.[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/staffordshire/8476873.stm] |- |5 March 2010 |London |300[http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/05/geert-wilders-house-of-lords] |50[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1255658/Geert-Wilders-arrives-Britain-major-gains-Dutch-polls.html] |Rally in support of Geert Wilders'[[Geert Wilders]] visit to the House of Lords [[House of Lords]]. 100 UAF counter-demonstrators. Most of the arrests were UAF, the claimed (but unsupported) numbers being 48 UAF and 2 EDL: ''&quot;out of 50 arrests made on that day only 2 were actually EDL members for “breach of the peace” the rest were from the Unite Against Fascism&quot;''[http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/fitna/]. |- |20 March 2010 |[[Bolton]] |2,000&lt;ref name=&quot;Boltonnews&quot;&gt;{{ cite news | url=http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/5077171.The______300_000_price____of_policing_protesters_rallies/ | title=The ‘£300,000 price’ of policing protesters rallies | publisher=[[The Bolton News]] | date=23rd March 2010 |accessdate=25 July 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; |74&lt;ref name=&quot;Boltonnews&quot;/&gt; |Counter-protested by 1,500 UAF. 1,300 police dispatched at a cost of £300,000.&lt;ref name=&quot;Boltonnews&quot;/&gt; 55 arrested from UAF and around 9 from EDL.&lt;ref name=&quot;belfasttelegraph1&quot;&gt;{{ cite news | url=http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/breaking-news/uk-ireland/74-arrests-in-demo-clash-14733310.html | title=74 arrests in demo clash | publisher=[[The Belfast Telegraph]] | date= 21 March 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;autogenerated3&quot;&gt;{{cite news|url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/8577777.stm |title=Police battle to control EDL and UAF protest in Bolton |publisher=BBC |date= 20 March 2010 |accessdate=26 March 2010 }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;theboltonnews1&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/5074044.55_arrests_at_protests/ |title=55 arrests at protests |publisher=[[The Bolton News]] |date=20 March 2010 |accessdate= 26 March 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; |- |3 April 2010 |[[Dudley]] |2,000&lt;ref name=&quot;dailymail1&quot;&gt;{{cite news|url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1263276/English-Defence-League-protesters-clash-police.html |title=English Defence League protesters clash with police &amp;#124; Mail Online |publisher=Dailymail.co.uk |date= 3 April 2010|accessdate=2010-08-01 | location=London}}&lt;/ref&gt; |12 [http://www.birminghammail.net/news/birmingham-news/2010/04/14/dudley-is-braced-for-return-of-english-defence-league-97319-26236120/] |Several EDL supporters knocked down fencing and escaped the police cordon.&lt;ref name=&quot;dailymail1&quot;/&gt; The policing cost came to around £400,000 and the cost to the council was £150,000. [http://www.sundaymercury.net/news/midlands-news/2010/04/18/sunday-mercury-unveils-face-of-leader-of-edl-whose-group-has-cost-taxpayers-2-million-66331-26264953/2/] [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/8602791.stm] There were 1500 UAF counter-demonstrators.[http://www.birminghammail.net/news/black-country/black-country-news/2010/04/04/edl-in-dudley-uaf-bring-1-500-to-town-for-counter-protest-97319-26172847/] |- |1 May 2010 |[[Aylesbury]] |800 |12&lt;ref name=&quot;autogenerated4&quot;&gt;{{cite news|url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/8655895.stm |title=English Defence League protest leads to 12 arrests |publisher=BBC News |date=2010-05-01 |accessdate=2010-08-01}}&lt;/ref&gt; |Peaceful protest against militant Islam. Eight of the arrests on suspicion of carrying an offensive weapon.&lt;ref name=&quot;autogenerated4&quot;/&gt; The policing cost was estimated at £300,000. [http://www.bucksherald.co.uk/news/EDL-demo-in-Aylesbury-set.6226926.jp] About 75 UAF counter-demonstrators gathered in the town, but later left.[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/7664491/Police-clash-with-anti-Islamist-protesters-in-Buckinghamshire.html] |- |29 May 2010 |Newcastle |1,500-2,000&lt;ref name=&quot;sundaysun1&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.sundaysun.co.uk/news/breaking-news/2010/05/29/no-arrests-at-english-defence-league-newcastle-march-79310-26549428/ |title=No arrests at English Defence League Newcastle march |publisher=Sunday Sun |date=2010-05-29 |accessdate=2010-08-01}}&lt;/ref&gt; |Zero&lt;ref name=&quot;sundaysun1&quot;/&gt; |UAF hold counter demonstration of around 1,000. No arrests at either demonstration despite minor scuffles.&lt;ref name=&quot;sundaysun1&quot;/&gt; |- |17 July 2010 |Dudley |500&lt;ref name=&quot;dudley1&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.dudley.gov.uk/welcome/news-in-dudley/july-2010/dudley-council-response-to-july-17-edl-p |title=Dudley Metropolitan Borough Council - 17 - Dudley Council response to July 17 EDL protest |publisher=Dudley.gov.uk |date=2010-07-19 |accessdate=2010-08-01}}&lt;/ref&gt; |21&lt;ref name=&quot;dudleynews1&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.dudleynews.co.uk/news/8278277.LIVE_UPDATE___Trouble_flares_at_EDL_rally/ |title=LIVE UPDATE - Trouble flares at EDL rally (From Dudley News) |publisher=Dudleynews.co.uk |date= |accessdate=2010-08-01}}&lt;/ref&gt; |Away from the main demonstration a Hindu Temple was attacked along with shops, restaurants, cars and homes. The cost of the demonstration came to £400,000 in policing and £150,000 to the local council. &lt;ref name=&quot;dudleynews1&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;stourbridgenews1&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.stourbridgenews.co.uk/news/8283497.EDL_protest_bill_tops_half_a_million_pounds/ |title=EDL protest bill tops half-a-million pounds (From Stourbridge News) |publisher=Stourbridgenews.co.uk |date=2010-07-21 |accessdate=2010-08-01}}&lt;/ref&gt; The UAF claimed an attendance of 350.[http://uaf.org.uk/2010/07/racist-edl-brings-violence-to-dudley/] |- |28 August 2010 |Bradford |300&lt;ref name=&quot;PressTV&quot;/&gt;–700&lt;ref name=bbc2808&gt;{{cite news|url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bradford-west-yorkshire-11121005 |title=BBC News - Missiles thrown during Bradford EDL demonstration |publisher=Bbc.co.uk |date=2010-08-20 |accessdate=2010-08-28}}&lt;/ref&gt; |13&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bradford-west-yorkshire-11121005 |title=BBC News - Missiles thrown during Bradford EDL demonstration |publisher=Bbc.co.uk |date=2010-08-20 |accessdate=2010-08-30}}&lt;/ref&gt; |1,300 police officers were involved in policing the protest.&lt;ref name=gu2808&gt;{{cite news|author=Matthew Taylor and Martin Wainwright |url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/aug/28/english-defence-league-bradford-demonstrations |title=English Defence League supporters attack police at Bradford rally &amp;#124; UK news &amp;#124; The Observer |publisher=Guardian |date= 28 August 2010|accessdate=2010-08-30 | location=London}}&lt;/ref&gt; Various missiles were thrown by EDL supporters during the protest.&lt;ref name=bbc2808/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;PressTV&quot;&gt;{{Cite video |title= English Defence League riot in Bradford |url= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcU_PPmxy2M |publisher= [[Press TV]] |date=August 28, 2010 |accessdate=August 30, 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; The cost of the demonstration came to £600,000 in policing, £100,000 for concrete reinforcing for the fencing around the demonstration area and an estimated cost of £100,000 to local businesses.[http://www.themuslimweekly.com/DetailView.aspx?NEWSID=TW00015163] Chants of 'We love the floods', in reference to the floods in Pakistan were heard from EDL supporters.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news| url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/7969467/Riot-police-tackle-missiles-at-English-Defence-League-protest-in-Bradford.html | location=London | work=The Daily Telegraph | first=Patrick | last=Sawer | title=Riot police tackle missiles at English Defence League protest in Bradford | date=28 August 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; Approximateley 300 UAF members attended the counter-demonstration.[http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/151357/Missile-war-in-race-hate-clash/Missile-war-in-race-hate-clashMissile-war-in-race-hate-clash] |- |11 September 2010 |[[Oldham]] |120&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news| url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-11275810 | work=BBC News | title=Eight arrests at English Defence League event in Oldham | date=12 September 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; |8 &lt;ref&gt;{{cite news| url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-11275810 | work=BBC News | title=Eight arrests at English Defence League event in Oldham | date=12 September 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref&gt;http://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news-features/8/news-headlines/46908/hate-mobs-terror-reign&lt;/ref&gt; |EDL converged on Oldham around mid-day after telephoning police in advance at 8.45am&lt;ref&gt;http://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news-features/8/news-headlines/46908/hate-mobs-terror-reign&lt;/ref&gt;, a group of around 50 supporters attacked a police car with bottles and laid a wreath at the war memorial.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news| url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-11275810 | work=BBC News | title=Eight arrests at English Defence League event in Oldham | date=12 September 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref&gt;http://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news-features/8/news-headlines/46908/hate-mobs-terror-reign&lt;/ref&gt; |- | 9 October 2010 |[[Leicester]] |1000 &lt;ref&gt;http://www.leics.police.uk/news/4249_police_thank_public_following_protests/&lt;/ref&gt; |13 &lt;ref&gt;http://www.leics.police.uk/news/4249_police_thank_public_following_protests/&lt;/ref&gt; |After the Home secretary accepted Leicester City Council's application for a ban on all marches in the city on this date&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news| url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/conservative/8041017/Leicester-marches-banned-by-Theresa-May.html | location=London | work=The Daily Telegraph | title=Leicester marches banned by Theresa May | date=4 October 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; the EDL held a static demonstration numbering 1,000, &lt;ref&gt;http://www.leics.police.uk/news/4249_police_thank_public_following_protests/&lt;/ref&gt; whilst Unite Against Fascism (UAF) staged a counter-protest numbering 700.&lt;ref&gt;http://www.leics.police.uk/news/4249_police_thank_public_following_protests/&lt;/ref&gt; One police officer was taken to hospital with a leg injury and two protesters were treated by paramedics for minor injuries.&lt;ref&gt;http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/edlprotest/Police-say-1-700-people-involved-Leicester-city-centre-protest/article-2740983-detail/article.html&lt;/ref&gt; |} ==Association with violence and anti-social behaviour== [[Image:EDL.jpg|thumb|right|300px|The English Defence League protest in Newcastle, England]] The group states that its aim is to demonstrate peacefully in English towns and cities,&lt;ref name=Telegraph4 /&gt; but conflicts with [[Unite Against Fascism]] (UAF), local opposition and other opponents have led to street violence, anti-social behaviour and arrests. A proposed march in Luton in September 2009 was banned by the police, citing a threat to public safety.&lt;ref name=LutonToday1 /&gt; There is normally heavy policing of these demonstrations, due to the likelihood of violence. The cost of policing these demonstrations has ranged from £300,000&lt;ref name=&quot;Boltonnews&quot;&gt;{{ cite news | url=http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/5077171.The______300_000_price____of_policing_protesters_rallies/ | title=The ‘£300,000 price’ of policing protesters rallies | publisher=[[The Bolton News]] | date=23rd March 2010 |accessdate=25 July 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; to £1 million.&lt;ref name=Guardian5 /&gt; Journalists that have covered EDL marches have received death threats,&lt;ref name=nuj/&gt; for instance journalist Jason N. Parkinson from ''[[The Guardian]]'' wrote about receiving a death threat by email from someone he described as an EDL organiser, as well as death threats sent to Marc Vallée, a fellow journalist.&lt;ref name=&quot;guardian-edl-fatwa&quot;/&gt; The National Union of Journalists also released a statement about journalists who had been intimidated after covering EDL demonstrations.&lt;ref name=nuj/&gt; A significant number of English Defence League members are known to have been convicted of [[football hooliganism]] offences.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news| url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1238213/This-England-On-trail-English-Defence-League.html | location=London | work=Daily Mail | title=This is England: Masked like terrorists, members of Britain's newest and fastest - growing protest group intimidate a Muslim woman on a train en route to a violent demo}}&lt;/ref&gt; Four specialist national police units involved in policing hooliganism, extreme violence, and terrorism are investigating the EDL.&lt;ref name=BBC1 /&gt; After their second demonstration in Birmingham Assistant Chief Constable Sharon Rowe of West Midlands Police: &quot;Really, there was no intent to protest. I think they knew that the community was very much against them coming to the city, which...potentially would generate violence&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;autogenerated1&quot;/&gt; Before their Manchester demonstration of October 2009, the EDL held a press conference, during which they burned a Nazi flag and asserted that &quot;There is no militant undertone. We will peacefully protest but we will not be scared into silence&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=O'Brien |first=Paraic |url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8303786.stm |title=Programmes &amp;#124; Newsnight &amp;#124; Under the skin of English Defence League |publisher=BBC News |date=2009-10-12 |accessdate=2010-08-01}}&lt;/ref&gt; During the Manchester city centre demonstration Mat Trewern, from BBC Radio Manchester reported that &quot;At one point, earlier on, when it became extremely tense, members of the UAF tried to break the police line between the two groups” Greater Manchester Police confirmed a man, believed to be heading to the protest, had earlier been arrested in Birmingham on suspicion of distributing racially aggravated material.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/8300431.stm |title=UK &amp;#124; England &amp;#124; Manchester &amp;#124; Dozens arrested during protests |publisher=BBC News |date=2009-10-10 |accessdate=2010-08-01}}&lt;/ref&gt; One week later, at a Welsh Defence League demonstration, supporters burnt an anti-Nazi flag and made Nazi salutes.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|author=Helen Pidd |url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/18/swansea-far-right-rally-flag |title=Far-right protesters in Swansea burn anti-Nazi flag &amp;#124; UK news |publisher=The Guardian |date= 18 October 2009|accessdate=2010-08-01 | location=London}}&lt;/ref&gt; On January 2010 in Stoke-on-Trent, there was trouble as EDL members broke through police lines, four police officers were injured and police vehicles were damaged. The BBC's Matt Cooke said there had been few problems with the Unite Against Fascism demonstration.&lt;ref name=&quot;autogenerated2&quot;/&gt; In March 2010 in Bolton, 74 people were arrested in the demonstrations; reports state that at least 55 of the arrested were from the UAF and nine from the EDL.&lt;ref name=&quot;belfasttelegraph1&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;autogenerated3&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;theboltonnews1&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;IndyBolton&quot;&gt;{{cite news|url=http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-blame-antifascists-for-violence-1925038.html |title=Police blame anti-fascists for violence |publisher=[[The Independent]] |date= 22 March 2010 | accessdate=26 March 2010 | location=London | first=Lewis | last=Smith}}&lt;/ref&gt; Weyman Bennett, joint secretary of Unite Against Fascism was arrested and charged with conspiracy to organise violent disorder,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1259409/Police-attack-right-wing-group-anti-fascists-clash-violent-street-protests.html#ixzz0vBHaB3Av |title=Police under attack as right-wing group and anti-fascists clash in violent street protests &amp;#124; Mail Online |publisher=Dailymail.co.uk |date= 21 March 2010|accessdate=2010-08-01 | location=London}}&lt;/ref&gt; Martin Smith, of Love Music Hate Racism and Dr Moran, joint secretary of Greater Manchester UAF were among those arrested on conspiracy charges.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/8256031.Meeting_over_rally_arrests/ |title=Meeting over rally arrests (From The Bolton News) |publisher=Theboltonnews.co.uk |date=2010-07-06 |accessdate=2010-08-01}}&lt;/ref&gt; Police said that UAF protesters were responsible for most of the trouble and that they had turned up intending to cause trouble saying &quot; 'It is clear to me that a large number have attended with the sole intention of committing disorder and their actions have been wholly unacceptable.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1259409/Police-attack-right-wing-group-anti-fascists-clash-violent-street-protests.html#ixzz0vBI4bOnI |title=Police under attack as right-wing group and anti-fascists clash in violent street protests &amp;#124; Mail Online |publisher=Dailymail.co.uk |date= 21 March 2010|accessdate=2010-08-01 | location=London}}&lt;/ref&gt; At their second Dudley protest, on 17 July 2010, there was widespread damage to local property, the local council estimates the bill to be over £500,000.&lt;ref name=&quot;stourbridgenews1&quot;/&gt; On 11 September 2010, police in Oldham received an advance call from the EDL. Around mid-day approximately 120 supporters had descended on the town. A separate mob of around 50 members attacked a police car with bottles. There were 8 arrests for public order offences.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news| url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-11275810 | work=BBC News | title=Eight arrests at English Defence League event in Oldham | date=12 September 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref&gt;http://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news-features/8/news-headlines/46908/hate-mobs-terror-reign&lt;/ref&gt; On 9 October 2010, a police officer and several civillians were injured during protests by the English Defence League and Unite Against Fascism in [[Leicester]]. A Sky News van was attacked by members of the English Defence League&lt;ref&gt;http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/English-Defence-League-Protesters-Attack-Sky-News-Satellite-Truck-In-Leicester-Protest/Article/201010215755108?lpos=UK_News_Top_Stories_Header_3&amp;lid=ARTICLE_15755108_English_Defence_League_Protesters_Attack_Sky_News_Satellite_Truck_In_Leicester_Protest&lt;/ref&gt; who had earlier thrown fireworks, smokebombs and bricks at police&lt;ref&gt;http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/news/Fireworks-bricks-thrown-police-protesters-Leicester/article-2740945-detail/article.html&lt;/ref&gt; and smashed windows of the city's International Arts Centre&lt;ref&gt;http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/news/Protesters-smash-windows-International-Arts-Centre/article-2740968-detail/article.html&lt;/ref&gt; There were also clashes between EDL supporters and local black and asian youth as a group broke out of the EDL protest site at Humberstone Gate East and engaged with the locals. Riot police fought to maintain control over the sporadic fighting that ensued.&lt;ref&gt;http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/news/Violent-clashes-break-EDL-black-Asian-people-Leicester/article-2741048-detail/article.html&lt;/ref&gt; Thirteen people were arrested, one on suspicion of assaulting a police officer&lt;ref&gt;http://www.leics.police.uk/campaigns/142_updates_in_relation_to_the_city/&lt;/ref&gt;; only one of these people was from the city of Leicester. &lt;ref&gt;http://www.leics.police.uk/news/4249_police_thank_public_following_protests/&lt;/ref&gt; ==Views and reactions== The British press describes the EDL as [[far-right]].&lt;ref name=Times1 /&gt;&lt;ref name=HarrowTimes1 /&gt;&lt;ref name=BirminghamPost2 /&gt;&lt;ref name=SkyNews1 /&gt;&lt;ref name=Independent1 /&gt; This has been contested by Bill Baker, organiser of the EDL's cancelled [[Harrow Central Mosque]] protest, who said&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;The protest was organised by people from all walks of life, all religions and faiths – even the local [[Sikhs]] and [[Hindus]] were concerned. It wasn't a far-right protest. Although they might have been utilising the situation they were nothing to do with us. We are opposed to extremism on both sides of the political agenda.&quot;&lt;ref name=HarrowTimes1 /&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt; ''[[Searchlight_(magazine)|Searchlight]]'' says the EDL poses two risks. One is the formation of a street army prepared to travel around the country to fight and provide organisational support. The other is the group's tactics of carrying placards and chanting in places that are potential flashpoints. ''Searchlight'' added that not every leader of the EDL is a fascist or hardcore racist.&lt;ref name=BBC1 /&gt; Trevor Kelway, a spokesman for the EDL, has denied that the group is racist. He said he had taken over as spokesman because the previous spokesman was Islamophobic. &quot;We would march alongside Muslims and Jews who are against militant Islam,&quot; he said. &quot;There were none on Saturday and an all-white group doesn't look good. But they can join the EDL as long as they accept an English way of life. It is the people who threaten with bombs and violence and threaten and bomb our troops – they don't belong here.&quot;&lt;ref name=Guardian2 /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;BBC 20090907&quot; /&gt; UK [[Prime Minister of the United Kingdom|Prime Minister]] [[David Cameron]] stated in the 2010 election campaign, “The EDL are terrible people, we would always keep these groups under review and if we needed to ban them, we would ban them or any groups which incite hatred.”&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|author=Jasbir Authi |url=http://www.birminghammail.net/news/birmingham-news/2010/05/06/david-cameron-makes-dash-to-west-midlands-97319-26385771/ |title=News - Birmingham News - David Cameron makes dash to West Midlands |publisher=Birmingham Mail |date= |accessdate=2010-08-28}}&lt;/ref&gt; Former Home Office secretary [[Phil Woolas]] stated of the organisation's tactics &quot;This is a deliberate attempt by the EDL at division and provocation, to try and push young Muslims into the hands of extremists, in order to perpetuate the divide. It is dangerous.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news| url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/may/28/english-defence-league-guardian-investigation | location=London | work=The Guardian | title=English Defence League: Inside the violent world of Britain's new far right | first=Matthew | last=Taylor | date=28 May 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[John Denham (politician)|John Denham]], the then UK [[Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government|Communities Secretary]], has condemned EDL, saying its tactics are similar to those of the [[British Union of Fascists]] in the 1930s, although he stressed that they did not present anything like the same &quot;potency, organisation or threat&quot;. He was commenting after clashes between different groups at a new London mosque, during a demo by the group [[Stop the Islamification of Europe]]. He singled out the EDL in particular: &quot;If you look at the types of demonstrations they have organised, the language used and the targets chosen, it looks pretty clear that it's a tactic designed to provoke, to get a response and create violence&quot;.&lt;ref name=BBC4 /&gt;&lt;ref name=Mercury2 /&gt; The leader of Dudley council, Anne Milward, stated after the second EDL demonstration in her city: &quot;We are extremely saddened that Dudley has again been targeted by the English Defence League. Yet again this group of outside extremists have shown they are incapable of demonstrating peacefully and have brought public disorder and violence to our town.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;dudley1&quot;/&gt; The creation of an EDL &quot;Jewish division&quot; in June 2010 was condemned by an article published in [[The Forward]] and the Israeli newspaper [[Haaretz]].&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/diaspora-jews-beware-stay-away-from-bigots-no-matter-how-friendly-they-seem-1.299009 &quot;Diaspora Jews beware: Stay away from bigots, no matter how friendly they seem&quot;]&lt;/ref&gt; ==Academic analysis== [[Matthew Goodwin (academic)|Matthew Goodwin]] an academic who specialises in the study of far-right extremism has argued that the press are more sympathetic to the Islamophobia of the EDL than they were to the anti-Semitism of the National Front in the 1970s: &lt;blockquote&gt;The reason why the EDL's adoption of Islamophobia is particularly significant is that unlike the 1970s, when the National Front was embracing antisemitism, there are now sections of the media and the British establishment that are relatively sympathetic towards Islamophobia. It is not difficult to look through the media and find quite hostile views towards Islam and Muslims. That is fundamentally different to the 1970s, when very few newspapers or politicians were endorsing the NF's antisemitic message.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news| url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/may/28/english-defence-league-protest-bnp | location=London | work=The Guardian | title=English Defence League: new wave of extremists plotting summer of unrest | first=Matthew | last=Taylor | date=28 May 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt; ==International activities== On 31 August 2010, it was reported in the media that the organisation is set to stage a protest in [[Amsterdam]] as it plans to hold protests beyond Britain's borders for the first time.&lt;ref&gt;[http://euobserver.com/9/30691]&lt;/ref&gt; The EDL is also reported to be developing links with anti-islamic elements within the [[Tea Party movement]] in the US through [[Pamela Geller]], who is associated with the [[Park51|Ground Zero Mosque]] controversy &lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/oct/10/english-defence-league-tea-party|title=English Defence League forges links with America's Tea Party|work=The Observer|first=Mark|last=Townsend|date=10 October 2010|accessdate=10 October 2010 | location=London}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==See also== *[[Stop the Islamification of Europe]] *[[Casuals United]] ==Image gallery== &lt;gallery&gt; Image:EDL2.jpg Image:EDL3.jpg Image:EDL6.jpg &lt;/gallery&gt; ==References== {{Reflist|3|refs= &lt;ref name=Newsnight&gt;{{cite episode | title = EDL Goons on Newsnight, part2 | episodelink = | url = http://video.aol.co.uk/video-detail/edl-goons-on-newsnight-part-2/3188268471 | series = [[Newsnight]] | serieslink = | credits = | network = [[BBC]] | station = [[BBC2]] | city = London | airdate = 12 October 2009 | began = | ended = | season = | seriesno = | number = | minutes = 1:26 | transcript = | transcripturl= }}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=BBC1&gt;{{cite news |url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8250017.stm |title=Who are the English Defence League? |author=Casciani, Dominic |work=BBC News Online |location=London | date=11 September 2009|accessdate=&lt;!--10 October 2009--&gt;}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=BBC2&gt;{{cite news |url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_midlands/8239818.stm |title=Rival protesters clash on streets |date=5 September 2009 |accessdate=&lt;!--10 October 2009--&gt; |work=BBC News Online}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=BBC3 &gt;{{cite news |url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_midlands/8240414.stm |title=Ninety arrests over city clashes |date=6 September 2009 |accessdate=&lt;!--10 October 2009--&gt; |work=BBC News Online}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=BBC4&gt;{{cite news |url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8251958.stm |title=Denham condemns right-wing groups|date=11 September 2009 |accessdate=&lt;!--10 October 2009--&gt; |work=BBC News Online}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=BBC5&gt;{{cite news |url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8266933.stm |title=Is far-right extremism a threat? |author=Urry, Allan |work=BBC News Online |date=22 September 2009|accessdate=&lt;!---10 October 2009--&gt;}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=&quot;BBC 20091012&quot;&gt;{{cite news |url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/8303786.stm |title=Under the skin of English Defence League |last=O'Brien|first=Paraic |date=12 October 2009|work=BBC Newsnight|accessdate=&lt;!---21 October 2009---&gt; }}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=&quot;BBC 20090907&quot;&gt;{{cite news | author=Wilson, Peter |date=17 September 2009 |url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/8261027.stm | title=Policing the English Defence League |publisher=BBC |location=London}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=BBC8&gt;{{cite news |url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/8297950.stm |title=Call for anti-Islamic marches ban |publisher=BBC |location=London |date= 8 October 2009 }}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=bbc10&gt;{{cite news |url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/8300431.stm |title=Dozens arrested during protests |date=10 October 2009 |work=BBC News Online |location=London}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=BBC11&gt;{{cite news| title = Protest policing hailed a success | publisher = BBC| date = 1 November 2009 | url = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/8336469.stm | accessdate = 1 November 2009 }}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=BirminghamPost1&gt;{{cite news |url=http://birminghampost.net/news/politics-news/2009/08/26/mp-opposes-rally-ban-despite-violence-fears-65233-24531567 |title=MP opposes rally ban despite violence fears |date=26 August 2009|accessdate=&lt;!---10 October 2009---&gt;|author=Walker, Jonathan |newspaper=[[Birmingham Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=DailyMail1&gt;{{cite news |url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196070/The-shocking-picture-white-boy-aged-11-converted-Islam-Choudary.html |title=The shocking picture of a white boy aged 11 being 'converted' to Islam by radical preacher |date=29 June 2009 |accessdate=&lt;!--27 October 2009--&gt; |newspaper=[[The Daily Mail]] |location=London}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=Guardian3&gt;{{cite news |url=http://guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/13/english-defence-league-protest-palestinian |title=Far-right supporters confront pro-Palestinian protestors |date=13 September 2009 |accessdate=&lt;!---10 October 2009---&gt; | author=Taylor, Matthew |newspaper=[[The Guardian]] |location=London}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=Guardian2&gt;{{cite news |url=http://guardian.co.uk/football/2009/aug/10/english-violence-militant-football-islamist |title='Defence league' recruiting football fans to march against Islamic extremism |date=11 August 2009 |accessdate=&lt;!---10 October 2009---&gt;|author=Booth, Robert; Jones, Sam |newspaper=[[The Guardian]] |location=London}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=Guardian4&gt;{{cite news |url=http://guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/aug/09/defence-league-casuals-birmingham-islam |title='Patriot' league plots more clashes with anti-fascist activists |date=9 August 2009 |accessdate=&lt;!--10 October 2009--&gt; |author=Booth, Robert; Travis, Alan |newspaper=[[The Guardian]] |location=London}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=Guardian5&gt;{{ cite news |url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/dec/05/edl-march-violence-nottingham |title=English Defence League marchers clash with police in Nottingham |newspaper=[[The Guardian]] |accessdate=&lt;!--06 December 2009--&gt; | location=London | first=Mark | last=Townsend | date=5 December 2009}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=Scotsman1&gt;{{cite news |url=http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/AntiMuslim-extremists-plan-Scots-protest.5658854.jp |title=Anti-Muslim extremists plan Scots protest|author=Leask, David |date=18 September 2009 |newspaper=[[The Scotsman]]|location=Edinburgh}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=Telegraph1&gt;{{cite news |url=http://telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/6067813/Luton-bans-marches-amid-fears-of-protests.html |title=Luton bans marches amid fears of protests|date=21 August 2009 |accessdate=&lt;!--10 October 2009--&gt; |newspaper=The Daily Telegraph |location=London}} {{Dead link|date=October 2010|bot=RjwilmsiBot}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=Telegraph4&gt;{{cite news |url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/6284184/The-English-Defence-League-will-the-flames-of-hatred-spread.html |title=The English Defence League: will the flames of hatred spread?|last=Tweedie|first=Neil |date=10 October 2009|newspaper=The Daily Telegraph| location= London |accessdate=&lt;!---21 October 2009---&gt;}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=Telegraph2&gt;{{cite news |url=http://telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/4976105/Luton-parade-protesters-were-members-of-extremist-group.html |title=Luton parade protesters 'were members of extremist group' |date=12 March 2009 |accessdate=&lt;!--10 October 2009--&gt; |newspaper=The Daily Telegraph |location=London}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=Times1&gt;{{cite news |url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6790067.ece |title=Far-right group, the English Defence League, in disarray after Birmingham fracas |author=Hines, Nico; Pitas, Costas |date=10 August 2009 |accessdate=&lt;!---10 October 2009---&gt; |newspaper=The Times |location=London}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=LutonToday1&gt;{{cite news |url=http://www.lutontoday.co.uk/lut-news/Fears-of-further-violence-prompt.5577389.jp |title=Fears of further violence prompt march ban |newspaper=Luton Today |date=21 August 2009|accessdate=10 October 2009|publisher=Johnston Press Digital Publishing}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=Mercury1&gt;{{cite news |url=http://sundaymercury.net/news/midlands-news/2009/09/06/english-defence-league-and-socialist-protesters-in-violent-rampage-through-birmingham-streets-66331-24616522/ |title=English Defence League and socialist protesters in violent rampage through Birmingham streets |author=Bradley, Paul |date=6 September 2009|accessdate=&lt;!--10 October 2009--&gt; |newspaper=[[Sunday Mercury]] |location=Birmingham}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=BirminghamMail1&gt;{{cite news |url=http://birminghammail.net/news/top-stories/2009/09/07/police-were-today-studying-cctv-footage-in-a-bid-to-identify-more-of-the-hooligans-involved-in-the-violent-clashes-97319-24626092/ |title=Police were today studying CCTV footage in a bid to identify more of the hooligans involved in the violent clashes |author=Cowan, Mark |date=7 September 2009|accessdate=&lt;!--10 October 2009--&gt; |newspaper=Birmingham Mail}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=HarrowTimes1&gt;{{cite news |url=http://harrowtimes.co.uk/news/4553713.Mosque_protest_called_off_after_Sharia_court_denial/ |title=Harrow mosque protest cancelled after Sharia court denial |newspaper=[[Harrow Times]]|publisher=Newsquest Media Group |date=19 August 2009 |accessdate=10 October 2009 |author=Royston, Jack}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=BirminghamPost2&gt;{{cite news |url=http://birminghampost.net/news/west-midlands-news/2009/08/24/police-urged-to-ban-far-right-rally-in-birmingham-65233-24513401/ |title=Police urged to ban far right rally in Birmingham |author= Tyler, Jane |date=24 August 2009|accessdate=&lt;!--10 October 2009--&gt; |newspaper=Birmingham Post}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=&quot;Walesonline 10-18&quot;&gt;{{cite news |url=http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2009/10/18/welsh-defence-league-show-true-colours-91466-24954821/ |title=Welsh Defence League show true colours |last=Mary Evans |first=Catherine |date=18 October 2009 |work=Wales Online |accessdate=21 October 2009}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=SkyNews1&gt;{{cite news |url=http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Politics/Race-Riot-Election-Campaign-Warning-After-Far-Right-Demos-In-Luton-And-Birmingham/Article/200909215379270?lpos=Politics_First_Home_Article_Teaser_Region_1&amp;lid=ARTICLE_15379270_Race_Riot_Election_Campaign_Warning_After_Far_Right_Demos_In_Luton_And_Birmingham | title=&quot;Election Campaign May Trigger Race Riots&quot;|author=di Paolo, Jon |date=11 September 2009 |accessdate=10 October 2009 |work=[[Sky News]]|location=London}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=Independent1&gt;{{cite news |url=http://independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/antiislamists-target-palestinian-rally-in-central-london-1786622.html |title=Anti-Islamists target Palestinian rally in central London |author=Grey, Sadie |date=13 September 2009|accessdate=&lt;!--10 October 2009--&gt; |newspaper=[[The Independent]] |location=London}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=Mercury2&gt;{{cite news |url=http://sundaymercury.net/news/sundaymercuryexclusives/2009/09/13/minister-likens-birmingham-riot-thugs-to-oswald-mosley-blackshirt-fascists-66331-24672911/ |title=Minister likens Birmingham riot thugs to Oswald Mosley Blackshirt fascists |author=Cole, Paul |date=13 September 2009 |accessdate=&lt;!--10 October 2009--&gt; |newspaper=Sunday Mercury |location=Birmingham}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=WYP1&gt;{{cite web|author=West Yorkshire Police |url=http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/section-item.asp?sid=12&amp;iid=8669 |title= Leeds Demonstrations - Saturday, 31 October 2009 |publisher=WYP |date=31 October 2009 |accessdate=1 November 2009}} {{Dead link|date=October 2010|bot=H3llBot}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=&quot;guardian-edl-fatwa&quot;&gt;{{Cite news | last = Parkinson | first = Jason N. | title = Far right embraces fatwas | work = Comment Is Free (blog) | publisher = The Guardian | location =London | date = 4 November 2009 | url = http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/nov/04/fatwa-english-defence-league }}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref name=nuj&gt;{{Cite press release | title = Death threats for journalists covering far right demos | publisher = [[National Union of Journalists]] | date = 2 November 2009 | url = http://www.nuj.org.uk/innerPagenuj.html?docid=1406 | accessdate = &lt;!---5 November 2009---&gt;}}&lt;/ref&gt; }} ==External links== {{External links|date=September 2010}} * {{Official website|1=http://www.englishdefenceleague.org/}} * [http://www.hudson-ny.org/1562/english-defense-league The English Defense League: The New Face of Europe?] {{UK far right}} [[Category:Anti-Islam sentiment]] [[Category:Far-right politics in the United Kingdom]] [[Category:Organizations established in 2009]] [[cs:English Defence League]] [[de:English Defence League]] [[fr:English Defence League]] [[it:English Defence League]] [[nl:English Defence League]] [[ru:Лига английской обороны]]</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Libertarianism&diff=394379714</id> <title>Talk:Libertarianism</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Libertarianism&diff=394379714"/> <updated>2010-11-02T14:02:57Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: &quot;np&quot;, not &quot;no&quot; ;-) <hr /> <div>{{skiptotoctalk}} {{talkheader|search=yes}} {{tmbox | type = content | text = '''General warning regarding disruption: 1 October 2010 03:28 UTC through 1 February 2011 03:28 UTC''' –&lt;br&gt; 1. An administrator [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Libertarianism&amp;diff=387474929&amp;oldid=387474657 has fully protected this article] until February 1, 2011. Go to this {{tl|editprotected}} link to learn how to use the tag to propose any non-controversial or consensus-based changes to the article, and an admininistrator will come along and make the edit.&lt;br&gt; 2. Due to months of disruptions by discussions about the breadth of libertarian ideologies discussed in this article, the community of editors has clearly and repeatedly discussed this topic and reached a consensus position, and continuous attempts to dispute this consensus disrupt the encyclopedia. If such discussion occurs despite warnings, editors should feel free to take the matter to [[WP:ANI|Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents]] or to collapse the discussion. The purpose of this general warning is to prevent disruption, not to prevent editorial opinion. Discussions on [[WP:WEIGHT|due and undue weight]] for subtopics of the article, backed by reliable sources, are fine. After the sanction expires, editorial opinion on topic and coverage, backed up by policy and [[WP:RS|reliable sources]], will be considered as normal. }} {{ArticleHistory |maindate=June 25, 2005 |action1=RBP |action1date=19 January 2004 |action1link=Wikipedia:Refreshing_brilliant_prose_-_Others |action1result=demoted |action1oldid=2199996 |action2=PR |action2link=Wikipedia:Peer review/Libertarianism/archive1 |action2date=02:43, 20 Mar 2005 |action2result=reviewed |action2oldid=11307576 |action3=FAC |action3link=Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Libertarianism/archive1 |action3date=15:44, 11 May 2005 |action3result=promoted |action3oldid=13562942 |action4=FAR |action4link=Wikipedia:Featured_article_removal_candidates/Libertarianism |action4date=16 August 2005 |action4oldid= 21171729 |action4result=kept |action5=FAR |action5link=Wikipedia:Featured article review/Libertarianism/archive1 |action5date=14:11, 15 January 2007 |action5result=removed |action5oldid=100676048 |action6=GAN |action6link=Talk:Libertarianism#Failed_.22good_article.22_nomination |action6date=2007-10-24 |action6result=failed |action6oldid=166638868 |currentstatus=FFA }} {{WikiProjectBanners|1= {{WikiProject Sociology|class=B|importance=Mid}} {{WikiProjectPolitics|class=B|importance=High}} {{philosophy|class=B|importance=mid|social=yes}} {{WPLibertarianism|class=B|importance=top}} {{WikiProject Liberalism|class=B|importance=top}} }} {{FixBunching|beg}} {{FixBunching|mid}} {{WPCD|small=yes}} {{FixBunching|mid}} {{V0.5|class=B|category=Socsci|small=yes}} {{FixBunching|mid}} {{Archive box|auto=long| ---- *[[Talk:Libertarian]], discussion for a page which has been merged with this article. ---- *[[Talk:Libertarianism/Alfrem]], discussion prior to the [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Alfrem#Alfrem_banned_from_Libertarianism|ArbCom decision]] banning [[User:Alfrem]] from this article. ---- *[[Talk:Libertarianism/Page move]], a July 2005 vote on a proposal to make [[libertarianism]] a disambiguation page and move this to ''Libertarianism (capitalist)''. }} {{User:MiszaBot/config |archiveheader = {{aan}} |maxarchivesize = 140K |counter = 27 |minthreadsleft = 3 |algo = old(7d) |archive = Talk:Libertarianism/Archive %(counter)d }} {{FixBunching|mid}} {{Auto archiving notice |bot=MiszaBot I |age=7 |small=yes}} {{FixBunching|end}} == General warning disputed == The general warning at the top of this page states as follows: {{quotation|1. An administrator has fully protected this article until February 1, 2011. Go to this '''editprotected''' link to learn how to use the tag to propose any non-controversial or consensus-based changes to the article, and an admininistrator will come along and make the edit.&lt;br&gt; 2. Due to months of disruptions by discussions about the breadth of libertarian ideologies discussed in this article, the community of editors has clearly and repeatedly discussed this topic and reached a consensus position, and continuous attempts to dispute this consensus disrupt the encyclopedia. If such discussion occurs despite warnings, editors should feel free to take the matter to [[WP:ANI|Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents]] or to collapse the discussion. The purpose of this general warning is to prevent disruption, not to prevent editorial opinion. Discussions on [[WP:WEIGHT|due and undue weight]] for subtopics of the article, backed by reliable sources, are fine. After the sanction expires, editorial opinion on topic and coverage, backed up by policy and [[WP:RS|reliable sources]], will be considered as normal. }} Though I think until February 1 is too long of a period, I generally have no other issue with point 1.&lt;p&gt;However, I dispute much of what is said in Point 2: * ''&quot;the community of editors has clearly and repeatedly discussed this topic and reached a consensus position&quot;''... *#what exactly is this &quot;consensus position&quot;? *#Where was it established? *#I thought [[Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion|Polling is not a substitute for discussion]]. No? *#&quot;When editors cannot reach agreement by editing&quot;, isn't the &quot;process of finding a [[WP:CONSENSUS|consensus]] ... continued by discussion on the relevant talk pages?&quot; *#Can't [[WP:TALKEDABOUTIT|consensus change]]? *''The purpose of this general warning is to prevent disruption, not to prevent editorial opinion.'' **Perhaps that was the original intent, but some seem to think they have carte blanche to hide discussions about article content, including an entire discussion in which half a dozen editors were involved. Based on this, I hereby dispute point 2 of the &quot;general warning&quot; above. Unless there is adequate response/explanation to this, or consensus support for Point (2) and the way it has been interpreted is demonstrated, within, say, 48 hours, I will support anyone who deletes point 2 in the general warning. --[[User:Born2cycle|Born2cycle]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]]) 16:23, 25 October 2010 (UTC) :This was born out of the fact that a discussion on how to improve the argument was getting bogged down on a constant stream of argument over whether this page should deal with both left and right libertarianism together. I don't 100% agree with the wording of the notice, but I think it has sense. To be clear; so far discussion seems to be sensible and dispassionate about what to include and at what weight. This seems the right approach; get some ''good wording'' of some form in the damn article. Then in a few months when that is written the scope might be reasonably reassessed. Comments like the collapsed IP comments today are exactly what this notice is warning about; rehashing identical issues that have been clogging up the page for months. As it is I think there comes a point where we just have to step back and say &quot;how do we best move forward and improve the content&quot;. And for that reason, a short moratorium on disputing the broad scope of the article seems reasonable. --'''[[user:tmorton166|Errant]]'''{{small| [tmorton166] {{sup|([[User_talk:tmorton166|chat!]])}}}} 16:37, 25 October 2010 (UTC) ::The agree'd consensus was that the article discuss all Libertarianisms with appropriate weighting. It was established by demonstration to the point of nausea through the repeated presentation of reliable, high quality, academic sources indicating that a significant proportion of scholarly definitions of Libertarianism are broad or libertarian socialist specific. (These presentations, did not of course, refute the existence of the large literature of scholarly definitions that are narrowly minarchist or pro-market specific). This occurred over six months of continuous disruption. Editors are currently working on a replacement article with well developed weighting. They seem to be editing productively in this process. ::No, we can't talk about consensus change, because the '''continuous''' question begging of consensus change was the disruption problem. As such '''periodic''' questioning of consensus is preferable. The article will revisit consensus in February. This delay will allow for the preparation of higher quality discussion of consensus on the article's coverage. Please feel free to develop magnificent reliably high quality sourced persuasive arguments to present in February if you disagree with the current consensus. ::The purpose of thread hiding, rather than persuing individual editors, is to recognise the community of editors had a disruption problem; not any individual editor. Thread hiding is an excellent alternative to singling out individuals. It cuts off the discussion without apportioning blame. Thread hiding also cuts off the &quot;one last word&quot; aspect of the discussion of continual revisiting. As such thread hiding reduces the combative atmosphere of the article. ::As such I ''support point 2''. [[User:Fifelfoo|Fifelfoo]] ([[User talk:Fifelfoo|talk]]) 16:41, 25 October 2010 (UTC) ::: IMHO we set the dispute aside to see if we can solve it by general article improvement. I'd like to stick with that plan. Including nicely telling this to new folks who raise the question. (or say ''THAT'' in the template) However, that point 2 is badly worded and should go. It makes it sound like anyone who raises the question is a bad person who needs to get punished. [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 16:48, 25 October 2010 (UTC) ::*tmorton166, do you realize that the comments recently collapsed (at [[#Article_makes_too_much_of_diff_between_left.2Fright_libertarianism]]) includes the hiding of comments by over half a dozen non-IP editors (Saruman-the-white, TFOWR, CarolMooreDC, [[User:Born2cycle|yours truly]], Anotoly-Rex, Fifelfoo, North8000, Yworo, and LK), not just &quot;collapsed IP comments&quot;? Do you support that? ::*Fifelfoo, isn't &quot;the '''continuous''' question begging of consensus change&quot; ''de facto'' evidence of a lack of consensus? --[[User:Born2cycle|Born2cycle]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]]) 16:54, 25 October 2010 (UTC) :::Yes, because it was going exactly the same way as every other discussion for the last few months, and was born out of an IP deliberately dredging up the issue. Once the ball starts rolling it seems ''no-one'' on this page can resist jumping in to say something. I never made up any opinion on the scope of the article, my only opinion is that it is a pile of crud, and there seems little point spending another 6 months figuring out what to write about. Much better to do the reverse; write some really good content. Then have a rationale discussion about whether to split it up or keep it together. Since the moratorium there has been movement but '''I would really like to see some draft work emerge in the next few weeks.''' --'''[[user:tmorton166|Errant]]'''{{small| [tmorton166] {{sup|([[User_talk:tmorton166|chat!]])}}}} 17:00, 25 October 2010 (UTC) ===Evidence of consensus=== Saved this since I was sure it would come up again. Can update the (now archived) links if you don't remember the incidents and dispute them. Remember [[Wikipedia:NOTUNANIMOUS#Not_unanimity|consensus doesn't have to be unanimous]]. And let's not forget all the disruptive comments by now sanctioned editors. Why not just work on actual edits instead of behavior I'm controlling myself in not describing. *[[Talk:Libertarianism/Archive_19#RFC:_Should_this_page_discuss_only_right-libertarianism.3F| This August 27 RfC ''rejecting'' just making it about Right wing libertarianism]], *[[Talk:Libertarianism/Archive_20#RfC:_Is_this_tag_appropriate.3F|This September 3 ''successful'' RfC for removing a tag saying that the article lacked a “single coherent topic” (because it did not have the desired single POV]], *[[Talk:Libertarianism#Requested_move|This September 9 ''rejected'' Requested move to &quot;Libertarianism (word)&quot;]]. (need to update link) *[[Talk:Libertarianism#Requested_move_Forms_of.29|This September 9 ''rejected'' Requested move to &quot;Libertarianism (Forms of)&quot;]].(need to update link) *[[Talk:Libertarianism#Proposal_to_revert_to_FA_version_and_work_from_there|This ''rejected'' proposal to revert to the 2005 version which does not include material deletionists do not like]] does not go to broader community; currently 5 for and 5 against.(need to update link) Signed: [[User:Carolmooredc|CarolMooreDC]] ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|talk]]) 17:04, 25 October 2010 (UTC) : We're going back down the same hole again. Including one side trying to overstate the degree and clarity of whatever consensus was reached. I suggest we stop right here, and move on to solving this by improvement of the the article. Maybe lighten up the wording on point 2 a bit, if someone feels bold. [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 17:11, 25 October 2010 (UTC) *{{ec}}These are supposed to demonstrate consensus of what, ''exactly'', Carol? Remember, [[Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion]]. I suggest you mistitled this section, which would better be named, '''Evidence of lack of consensus for any of the initiatives proposed so far'''. ---17:17, 25 October 2010 (UTC) &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Born2cycle|Born2cycle]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Born2cycle|contribs]]) 17:17, 25 October 2010&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; *Consensus does not mean unanimity. It seems we have discussed all these issues and come to a consensus. [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 17:27, 25 October 2010 (UTC) :: Let's just leave this up in the air and move on. [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 17:52, 25 October 2010 (UTC) :::Carol forgot the most clear, recent, and overwhelming RfC: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Libertarianism/Archive_26#Proposal:_remove_all_references_to_any_ideology_never_referred_to_as_just_.22libertarianism.22_without_qualification_in_English_WP:RS September 30]. Ten editors opposed limiting the scope of the article (4 strongly opposed) vs. 3 editors for limiting the scope of the article (only 1 strongly). The opposed arguments were firmly based on policy while the supporting arguments were weak and/or based on weak arguments or personal opinion. In every RfC on the topic which has brought in outside opinion, the gap between the positions widens and support for a broad view gets stronger. Continuing this discussion, especially with someone who's not committed enough to WP to create an account, is '''''pointless'''''. [[User:Yworo|Yworo]] ([[User talk:Yworo|talk]]) 17:59, 25 October 2010 (UTC) ::::Even if you ignore the three supports to claim consensus, that indicates consensus only on that one particular very specific point, which, AFAIK, has not been raised since. What is the relevance of that to this discussion? --[[User:Born2cycle|Born2cycle]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]]) 18:08, 25 October 2010 (UTC) And this is why the moratorium is in place; because now we are wrapped in another thread going nowhere. I'm a bit annoyed with the direction the conversation has turned the last couple of days. I recommend you make a determined effort to focus on the drafting that was progressing nicely, if at a snails pace. Consensus is not about &quot;something everyone is happy with&quot;. It is about what seems to have the most support. And right now what definitely has the most support is writing the article. '''so can you please go back to that''' --'''[[user:tmorton166|Errant]]'''{{small| [tmorton166] {{sup|([[User_talk:tmorton166|chat!]])}}}} 18:18, 25 October 2010 (UTC) :::::Again, can we please leave this up in the air and move on? Thanks [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 18:37, 25 October 2010 (UTC) ::::::Thanks for link to the forgotten RfC. Have added to list for future reference! [[User:Carolmooredc|CarolMooreDC]] ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|talk]]) 16:31, 27 October 2010 (UTC) == Rothbard on appropriating the word &quot;libertarian&quot; from the left == ‘One gratifying aspect of our rise to some prominence is that, for the first time in my memory, we, “our side,” had captured a crucial word from the enemy... “Libertarians”... had long been simply a polite word for left-wing anarchists, that is for anti-private property anarchists, either of the communist or syndicalist variety. But now we had taken it over...’ -- Murray N. Rothbard, ''The Betrayal of the American Right'', Ludwig von Mises Institute, 2007, p. 83 That should really be mentioned, given that the right-wing &quot;libertarians&quot; get so bothered by actual libertarians using the term... &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/128.40.192.31|128.40.192.31]] ([[User talk:128.40.192.31|talk]]) 10:30, 26 October 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :The quote is available at page 83 of the electronic copy [http://mises.org/books/betrayal.pdf available here]. A full citation would be Murray N. Rothbard, ''The Betrayal of the American Right'', Thomas E. Woods Jr. (ed.) Auburn, Alabama: Ludwig von Mises Institute, 2007, p.83. Given the often PRIMARY role of partisan presses in relation to this article, I'd suggest other editors carefully determine the reliability of this source before using it. [[User:Fifelfoo|Fifelfoo]] ([[User talk:Fifelfoo|talk]]) 10:42, 26 October 2010 (UTC) :: 128's the rude wording aside, I guess that that reinforces the point that certain meanings of the word (or words sometimes used in definition discussions like &quot;left&quot;) may have changed dramatically over time. And that certain summaries lists of key tenants may have to be given a time-line context. [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 12:00, 26 October 2010 (UTC) ::: It definitely reinforces the point that Born2cycle ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Libertarianism/Archive_21#Libertarianism_.28word.29 Libertarianism (Word)] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Libertarianism/Archive_22#Requested_move Requested Move]) and I ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Libertarianism/Archive_17#Reliable_vs_Relevant_Sources Reliable vs Relevant]) brought up a while ago that this article should discuss the current meaning of the word &quot;libertarianism&quot; and not all the meanings that the word has had. :::: I hate to point this out, but anarchists still use the word &quot;libertarian&quot; to describe their ideas. They were using it in the 1950s when Rothbard and company decided to &quot;capture&quot; it. So any discussion of &quot;the current meaning&quot; needs to include the left-wing use. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/128.40.192.31|128.40.192.31]] ([[User talk:128.40.192.31|talk]]) 07:58, 27 October 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; ::: My section on the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Libertarianism/Archive_24#Scope_of_Government scope of government] offers a rough timeline of the current meaning...rather than the various meanings of the word. The philosophy of limited government has not changed significantly in the past 200+ years. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. ::: Modern liberals stole the word &quot;liberal&quot; from modern libertarians (classical liberals) so modern libertarians stole the word &quot;libertarian&quot; from classical libertarians. Modern liberals support big government, modern libertarians support limited government and classical libertarians support no government. ::: &quot;John Stuart Mill, the great and generous theorist of liberalism, and Herbert Spencer, a major exponent of laissez-faire individualism, whose writings appealed immensely to the Spanish anarchists, can be - and have been - rightly designated as 'libertarians'&quot; - Anarchist seeds beneath the snow :::Thanks 128 for providing additional evidence that we're dealing with different meanings of the word &quot;libertarianism&quot; --[[User:Xerographica|Xerographica]] ([[User talk:Xerographica|talk]]) 21:13, 26 October 2010 (UTC) ::::Beating that dead horse ''again''? The word does not have &quot;different meanings&quot;, it rather forms a [[semantic]] [[continuum]], which is precisely what this article should elaborate. [[User:Yworo|Yworo]] ([[User talk:Yworo|talk]]) 06:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC) :::::Seeing a continuum in meaning might be the interpretation of some sources, but it's not the view of Rothbard nor of many other libertarian thinkers. Definitely a semantic discontinuity implied here: {{quotation|“Libertarians,” in contrast, had long been simply a polite word for left-wing anarchists, that is for anti-private property anarchists, either of the communist or syndicalist variety. But now we had taken it over, and more properly from the view of etymology; since we were proponents of individual liberty and therefore of the individual’s right to his property.}} ::::: --[[User:Born2cycle|Born2cycle]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]]) 06:18, 27 October 2010 (UTC) ::::::Yawn. The tertiary sources sort this out by finding the elements which are common across the continuity while also showing in what way the variants differ. We should follow these tertiary sources for the logic and structure of the article, as has been previously discussed and agreed on except by one or two habitually [[WP:TEDIOUS|tendentious]] editors. Feel free to wear the shoe if it fits. [[User:Yworo|Yworo]] ([[User talk:Yworo|talk]]) 06:23, 27 October 2010 (UTC) :::::::Please stop with the personal attacks. :::::::Tertiary sources like Brittanica don't even recognize the different meaning of the term which Rothbard refers to as ''&quot;had long been simply a polite word for left-wing anarchists, that is for anti-private property anarchists&quot;''. The anti-property sense of the word is generally not recognized in generic tertiary sources like Brittanica (Boaz), Stanford (Vallentyne) and IEP (Zwolinski). See [[Talk:Libertarianism/OverviewDraft2]]. --[[User:Born2cycle|Born2cycle]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]]) 16:47, 27 October 2010 (UTC) :::::::The historical approach/emphasis to use of the word is best since involves least WP:OR, except where one or preferably more sources have a good analysis. Rothbard's words obviously relevant and should be attributed to him. While by the time many of us got to libertarianism (like me in 1979) we'd lost the old history of the left association, and it should be made clear Rothbard's views on that. But Hess's views on the evolution of the word - and seems to me there's some ref somewhere - also relevant. [[User:Carolmooredc|CarolMooreDC]] ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|talk]]) 16:50, 27 October 2010 (UTC) == Time Framework for &quot;Common Tenets&quot; Development? == This refers to work in the overviewdraft2 sub-page. Looking for just your &quot;quick gut feel&quot; answer on this. What I'm getting to is to what extent any description of common tenets would need to acknowledges changes over time, which means how much have they changed? I guess the three possibilities would be: #Very little No special provision need be made for changes over time. #Changes in just a few areas. Just adding notes about those particular changes would suffice. #Major Changes Any desctiption of common tenets must be given an era context (e.g. present day, mid 20th century, prior to the 1960 etc. ) And if you pick this one, could you suggest (an) era description(s) to include in addition to &quot;present day&quot; [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 11:35, 27 October 2010 (UTC) :First, are you talking about the History section of final article? (Let's not drift into WP:OR analysis as just mentioned above.) If so, give us examples of section titles that might help divide it up. (Also give link to the relevant page every time. I always forget where it is.) [[User:Carolmooredc|CarolMooreDC]] ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|talk]]) 16:59, 27 October 2010 (UTC) Right now it's basically using (and possibly tweaking) the structure in overviewdraft2 to arrive at common tenets which would be used to guide a draft of the overview section.[[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 00:31, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :I'd greatly prefer to avoid &quot;quick gut feel&quot; and stick to &quot;reliably sourced&quot;. If sources discuss changes over time we're golden. If they don't, we don't. &quot;Gut feel&quot; sounds far too much like &quot;[[WP:OR|our own opinions]]&quot;, which isn't a sound route for articles to take. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 00:36, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :: This was only to decide whether the &quot;common tenets&quot; section in the worksheet needs to be split into eras, not to create content. [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 12:06, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :::I appreciate that, but I still believe it's a bad idea. [[/OverviewDraft2]] should be referenced just as much as the article itself or we stray into OR territory. Our own views, our own opinions, should not be a factor either in the article or in the development of the article. We're editors, not researchers or academics. There are plenty of fora on the Internet where we can debate stuff like this, but here we should focus on the article and on the development of the article, and we should do that by following reliable sources, not by undertaking our own research. The purpose of the draft is to look at high-level, tertiary sources and apply weighting based on occurrences in those sources - not to detail our own views and then try and find secondary (or even primary) sources that fit with our own opinions. That seems to have been a recurring problem with this article in the past, and it's something that I'd really like to move away from so that we focus on editing and not research. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 12:21, 28 October 2010 (UTC) ::::I agree with TFOWR. That's why I would provide only the briefest sectional outline OR a fully sourced draft. One of these days :-) [[User:Carolmooredc|CarolMooreDC]] ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|talk]]) 03:50, 29 October 2010 (UTC) ::::: Well, I guess that we'll let the need or non-need for an era split on the worksheet be determined by the work there. [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 10:51, 29 October 2010 (UTC) == Let's move forward == Everything has focused on the work on overviewdraft2 (including common tenets development), which I think is excellent work not only for the overview, but as a foundation for other work on the article. But work there seems to have stalled. Is anybody planning on adding more material in the next couple weeks? If not, I think that it's time to start summarizing based on what is there. [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 11:42, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :I'm not sure I'd say it's stalled; {{diff2|393094814|last edit was only a week ago}}. There is still some fairly major work to do: Stanford (Vallentyne) needs to be fleshed out. Apart from that if everyone could check Britannica (Boaz), Stanford (Vallentyne) and IEP (Zwolinski) that would be good - it'll ensure we're all on &quot;the same page&quot;. But once Stanford is done I agree we could move on to sorting out weightings etc - more tertiary sources would be nice but three seems fine. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 13:25, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :: I guess me saying &quot;stalled&quot; was an overstatement. [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 13:53, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::Maybe, but we probably needed a boot up the backside anyway ;-) I'll try and take a look at Zwolinski over the next few days (it's one area I've not done anything in, so I figure I'm a good choice for looking it over). If you could either check Boaz or expand Vallentyne that would be good, too. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 14:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::::{{small|That last edit summary should have been &quot;np&quot; for &quot;no problem&quot;, not &quot;no&quot;. Oops! [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 14:02, 2 November 2010 (UTC)}}</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Libertarianism&diff=394379489</id> <title>Talk:Libertarianism</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Libertarianism&diff=394379489"/> <updated>2010-11-02T14:01:28Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: /* Let's move forward */ r. - no! <hr /> <div>{{skiptotoctalk}} {{talkheader|search=yes}} {{tmbox | type = content | text = '''General warning regarding disruption: 1 October 2010 03:28 UTC through 1 February 2011 03:28 UTC''' –&lt;br&gt; 1. An administrator [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Libertarianism&amp;diff=387474929&amp;oldid=387474657 has fully protected this article] until February 1, 2011. Go to this {{tl|editprotected}} link to learn how to use the tag to propose any non-controversial or consensus-based changes to the article, and an admininistrator will come along and make the edit.&lt;br&gt; 2. Due to months of disruptions by discussions about the breadth of libertarian ideologies discussed in this article, the community of editors has clearly and repeatedly discussed this topic and reached a consensus position, and continuous attempts to dispute this consensus disrupt the encyclopedia. If such discussion occurs despite warnings, editors should feel free to take the matter to [[WP:ANI|Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents]] or to collapse the discussion. The purpose of this general warning is to prevent disruption, not to prevent editorial opinion. Discussions on [[WP:WEIGHT|due and undue weight]] for subtopics of the article, backed by reliable sources, are fine. After the sanction expires, editorial opinion on topic and coverage, backed up by policy and [[WP:RS|reliable sources]], will be considered as normal. }} {{ArticleHistory |maindate=June 25, 2005 |action1=RBP |action1date=19 January 2004 |action1link=Wikipedia:Refreshing_brilliant_prose_-_Others |action1result=demoted |action1oldid=2199996 |action2=PR |action2link=Wikipedia:Peer review/Libertarianism/archive1 |action2date=02:43, 20 Mar 2005 |action2result=reviewed |action2oldid=11307576 |action3=FAC |action3link=Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Libertarianism/archive1 |action3date=15:44, 11 May 2005 |action3result=promoted |action3oldid=13562942 |action4=FAR |action4link=Wikipedia:Featured_article_removal_candidates/Libertarianism |action4date=16 August 2005 |action4oldid= 21171729 |action4result=kept |action5=FAR |action5link=Wikipedia:Featured article review/Libertarianism/archive1 |action5date=14:11, 15 January 2007 |action5result=removed |action5oldid=100676048 |action6=GAN |action6link=Talk:Libertarianism#Failed_.22good_article.22_nomination |action6date=2007-10-24 |action6result=failed |action6oldid=166638868 |currentstatus=FFA }} {{WikiProjectBanners|1= {{WikiProject Sociology|class=B|importance=Mid}} {{WikiProjectPolitics|class=B|importance=High}} {{philosophy|class=B|importance=mid|social=yes}} {{WPLibertarianism|class=B|importance=top}} {{WikiProject Liberalism|class=B|importance=top}} }} {{FixBunching|beg}} {{FixBunching|mid}} {{WPCD|small=yes}} {{FixBunching|mid}} {{V0.5|class=B|category=Socsci|small=yes}} {{FixBunching|mid}} {{Archive box|auto=long| ---- *[[Talk:Libertarian]], discussion for a page which has been merged with this article. ---- *[[Talk:Libertarianism/Alfrem]], discussion prior to the [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Alfrem#Alfrem_banned_from_Libertarianism|ArbCom decision]] banning [[User:Alfrem]] from this article. ---- *[[Talk:Libertarianism/Page move]], a July 2005 vote on a proposal to make [[libertarianism]] a disambiguation page and move this to ''Libertarianism (capitalist)''. }} {{User:MiszaBot/config |archiveheader = {{aan}} |maxarchivesize = 140K |counter = 27 |minthreadsleft = 3 |algo = old(7d) |archive = Talk:Libertarianism/Archive %(counter)d }} {{FixBunching|mid}} {{Auto archiving notice |bot=MiszaBot I |age=7 |small=yes}} {{FixBunching|end}} == General warning disputed == The general warning at the top of this page states as follows: {{quotation|1. An administrator has fully protected this article until February 1, 2011. Go to this '''editprotected''' link to learn how to use the tag to propose any non-controversial or consensus-based changes to the article, and an admininistrator will come along and make the edit.&lt;br&gt; 2. Due to months of disruptions by discussions about the breadth of libertarian ideologies discussed in this article, the community of editors has clearly and repeatedly discussed this topic and reached a consensus position, and continuous attempts to dispute this consensus disrupt the encyclopedia. If such discussion occurs despite warnings, editors should feel free to take the matter to [[WP:ANI|Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents]] or to collapse the discussion. The purpose of this general warning is to prevent disruption, not to prevent editorial opinion. Discussions on [[WP:WEIGHT|due and undue weight]] for subtopics of the article, backed by reliable sources, are fine. After the sanction expires, editorial opinion on topic and coverage, backed up by policy and [[WP:RS|reliable sources]], will be considered as normal. }} Though I think until February 1 is too long of a period, I generally have no other issue with point 1.&lt;p&gt;However, I dispute much of what is said in Point 2: * ''&quot;the community of editors has clearly and repeatedly discussed this topic and reached a consensus position&quot;''... *#what exactly is this &quot;consensus position&quot;? *#Where was it established? *#I thought [[Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion|Polling is not a substitute for discussion]]. No? *#&quot;When editors cannot reach agreement by editing&quot;, isn't the &quot;process of finding a [[WP:CONSENSUS|consensus]] ... continued by discussion on the relevant talk pages?&quot; *#Can't [[WP:TALKEDABOUTIT|consensus change]]? *''The purpose of this general warning is to prevent disruption, not to prevent editorial opinion.'' **Perhaps that was the original intent, but some seem to think they have carte blanche to hide discussions about article content, including an entire discussion in which half a dozen editors were involved. Based on this, I hereby dispute point 2 of the &quot;general warning&quot; above. Unless there is adequate response/explanation to this, or consensus support for Point (2) and the way it has been interpreted is demonstrated, within, say, 48 hours, I will support anyone who deletes point 2 in the general warning. --[[User:Born2cycle|Born2cycle]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]]) 16:23, 25 October 2010 (UTC) :This was born out of the fact that a discussion on how to improve the argument was getting bogged down on a constant stream of argument over whether this page should deal with both left and right libertarianism together. I don't 100% agree with the wording of the notice, but I think it has sense. To be clear; so far discussion seems to be sensible and dispassionate about what to include and at what weight. This seems the right approach; get some ''good wording'' of some form in the damn article. Then in a few months when that is written the scope might be reasonably reassessed. Comments like the collapsed IP comments today are exactly what this notice is warning about; rehashing identical issues that have been clogging up the page for months. As it is I think there comes a point where we just have to step back and say &quot;how do we best move forward and improve the content&quot;. And for that reason, a short moratorium on disputing the broad scope of the article seems reasonable. --'''[[user:tmorton166|Errant]]'''{{small| [tmorton166] {{sup|([[User_talk:tmorton166|chat!]])}}}} 16:37, 25 October 2010 (UTC) ::The agree'd consensus was that the article discuss all Libertarianisms with appropriate weighting. It was established by demonstration to the point of nausea through the repeated presentation of reliable, high quality, academic sources indicating that a significant proportion of scholarly definitions of Libertarianism are broad or libertarian socialist specific. (These presentations, did not of course, refute the existence of the large literature of scholarly definitions that are narrowly minarchist or pro-market specific). This occurred over six months of continuous disruption. Editors are currently working on a replacement article with well developed weighting. They seem to be editing productively in this process. ::No, we can't talk about consensus change, because the '''continuous''' question begging of consensus change was the disruption problem. As such '''periodic''' questioning of consensus is preferable. The article will revisit consensus in February. This delay will allow for the preparation of higher quality discussion of consensus on the article's coverage. Please feel free to develop magnificent reliably high quality sourced persuasive arguments to present in February if you disagree with the current consensus. ::The purpose of thread hiding, rather than persuing individual editors, is to recognise the community of editors had a disruption problem; not any individual editor. Thread hiding is an excellent alternative to singling out individuals. It cuts off the discussion without apportioning blame. Thread hiding also cuts off the &quot;one last word&quot; aspect of the discussion of continual revisiting. As such thread hiding reduces the combative atmosphere of the article. ::As such I ''support point 2''. [[User:Fifelfoo|Fifelfoo]] ([[User talk:Fifelfoo|talk]]) 16:41, 25 October 2010 (UTC) ::: IMHO we set the dispute aside to see if we can solve it by general article improvement. I'd like to stick with that plan. Including nicely telling this to new folks who raise the question. (or say ''THAT'' in the template) However, that point 2 is badly worded and should go. It makes it sound like anyone who raises the question is a bad person who needs to get punished. [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 16:48, 25 October 2010 (UTC) ::*tmorton166, do you realize that the comments recently collapsed (at [[#Article_makes_too_much_of_diff_between_left.2Fright_libertarianism]]) includes the hiding of comments by over half a dozen non-IP editors (Saruman-the-white, TFOWR, CarolMooreDC, [[User:Born2cycle|yours truly]], Anotoly-Rex, Fifelfoo, North8000, Yworo, and LK), not just &quot;collapsed IP comments&quot;? Do you support that? ::*Fifelfoo, isn't &quot;the '''continuous''' question begging of consensus change&quot; ''de facto'' evidence of a lack of consensus? --[[User:Born2cycle|Born2cycle]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]]) 16:54, 25 October 2010 (UTC) :::Yes, because it was going exactly the same way as every other discussion for the last few months, and was born out of an IP deliberately dredging up the issue. Once the ball starts rolling it seems ''no-one'' on this page can resist jumping in to say something. I never made up any opinion on the scope of the article, my only opinion is that it is a pile of crud, and there seems little point spending another 6 months figuring out what to write about. Much better to do the reverse; write some really good content. Then have a rationale discussion about whether to split it up or keep it together. Since the moratorium there has been movement but '''I would really like to see some draft work emerge in the next few weeks.''' --'''[[user:tmorton166|Errant]]'''{{small| [tmorton166] {{sup|([[User_talk:tmorton166|chat!]])}}}} 17:00, 25 October 2010 (UTC) ===Evidence of consensus=== Saved this since I was sure it would come up again. Can update the (now archived) links if you don't remember the incidents and dispute them. Remember [[Wikipedia:NOTUNANIMOUS#Not_unanimity|consensus doesn't have to be unanimous]]. And let's not forget all the disruptive comments by now sanctioned editors. Why not just work on actual edits instead of behavior I'm controlling myself in not describing. *[[Talk:Libertarianism/Archive_19#RFC:_Should_this_page_discuss_only_right-libertarianism.3F| This August 27 RfC ''rejecting'' just making it about Right wing libertarianism]], *[[Talk:Libertarianism/Archive_20#RfC:_Is_this_tag_appropriate.3F|This September 3 ''successful'' RfC for removing a tag saying that the article lacked a “single coherent topic” (because it did not have the desired single POV]], *[[Talk:Libertarianism#Requested_move|This September 9 ''rejected'' Requested move to &quot;Libertarianism (word)&quot;]]. (need to update link) *[[Talk:Libertarianism#Requested_move_Forms_of.29|This September 9 ''rejected'' Requested move to &quot;Libertarianism (Forms of)&quot;]].(need to update link) *[[Talk:Libertarianism#Proposal_to_revert_to_FA_version_and_work_from_there|This ''rejected'' proposal to revert to the 2005 version which does not include material deletionists do not like]] does not go to broader community; currently 5 for and 5 against.(need to update link) Signed: [[User:Carolmooredc|CarolMooreDC]] ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|talk]]) 17:04, 25 October 2010 (UTC) : We're going back down the same hole again. Including one side trying to overstate the degree and clarity of whatever consensus was reached. I suggest we stop right here, and move on to solving this by improvement of the the article. Maybe lighten up the wording on point 2 a bit, if someone feels bold. [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 17:11, 25 October 2010 (UTC) *{{ec}}These are supposed to demonstrate consensus of what, ''exactly'', Carol? Remember, [[Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion]]. I suggest you mistitled this section, which would better be named, '''Evidence of lack of consensus for any of the initiatives proposed so far'''. ---17:17, 25 October 2010 (UTC) &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Born2cycle|Born2cycle]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Born2cycle|contribs]]) 17:17, 25 October 2010&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; *Consensus does not mean unanimity. It seems we have discussed all these issues and come to a consensus. [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 17:27, 25 October 2010 (UTC) :: Let's just leave this up in the air and move on. [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 17:52, 25 October 2010 (UTC) :::Carol forgot the most clear, recent, and overwhelming RfC: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Libertarianism/Archive_26#Proposal:_remove_all_references_to_any_ideology_never_referred_to_as_just_.22libertarianism.22_without_qualification_in_English_WP:RS September 30]. Ten editors opposed limiting the scope of the article (4 strongly opposed) vs. 3 editors for limiting the scope of the article (only 1 strongly). The opposed arguments were firmly based on policy while the supporting arguments were weak and/or based on weak arguments or personal opinion. In every RfC on the topic which has brought in outside opinion, the gap between the positions widens and support for a broad view gets stronger. Continuing this discussion, especially with someone who's not committed enough to WP to create an account, is '''''pointless'''''. [[User:Yworo|Yworo]] ([[User talk:Yworo|talk]]) 17:59, 25 October 2010 (UTC) ::::Even if you ignore the three supports to claim consensus, that indicates consensus only on that one particular very specific point, which, AFAIK, has not been raised since. What is the relevance of that to this discussion? --[[User:Born2cycle|Born2cycle]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]]) 18:08, 25 October 2010 (UTC) And this is why the moratorium is in place; because now we are wrapped in another thread going nowhere. I'm a bit annoyed with the direction the conversation has turned the last couple of days. I recommend you make a determined effort to focus on the drafting that was progressing nicely, if at a snails pace. Consensus is not about &quot;something everyone is happy with&quot;. It is about what seems to have the most support. And right now what definitely has the most support is writing the article. '''so can you please go back to that''' --'''[[user:tmorton166|Errant]]'''{{small| [tmorton166] {{sup|([[User_talk:tmorton166|chat!]])}}}} 18:18, 25 October 2010 (UTC) :::::Again, can we please leave this up in the air and move on? Thanks [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 18:37, 25 October 2010 (UTC) ::::::Thanks for link to the forgotten RfC. Have added to list for future reference! [[User:Carolmooredc|CarolMooreDC]] ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|talk]]) 16:31, 27 October 2010 (UTC) == Rothbard on appropriating the word &quot;libertarian&quot; from the left == ‘One gratifying aspect of our rise to some prominence is that, for the first time in my memory, we, “our side,” had captured a crucial word from the enemy... “Libertarians”... had long been simply a polite word for left-wing anarchists, that is for anti-private property anarchists, either of the communist or syndicalist variety. But now we had taken it over...’ -- Murray N. Rothbard, ''The Betrayal of the American Right'', Ludwig von Mises Institute, 2007, p. 83 That should really be mentioned, given that the right-wing &quot;libertarians&quot; get so bothered by actual libertarians using the term... &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/128.40.192.31|128.40.192.31]] ([[User talk:128.40.192.31|talk]]) 10:30, 26 October 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :The quote is available at page 83 of the electronic copy [http://mises.org/books/betrayal.pdf available here]. A full citation would be Murray N. Rothbard, ''The Betrayal of the American Right'', Thomas E. Woods Jr. (ed.) Auburn, Alabama: Ludwig von Mises Institute, 2007, p.83. Given the often PRIMARY role of partisan presses in relation to this article, I'd suggest other editors carefully determine the reliability of this source before using it. [[User:Fifelfoo|Fifelfoo]] ([[User talk:Fifelfoo|talk]]) 10:42, 26 October 2010 (UTC) :: 128's the rude wording aside, I guess that that reinforces the point that certain meanings of the word (or words sometimes used in definition discussions like &quot;left&quot;) may have changed dramatically over time. And that certain summaries lists of key tenants may have to be given a time-line context. [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 12:00, 26 October 2010 (UTC) ::: It definitely reinforces the point that Born2cycle ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Libertarianism/Archive_21#Libertarianism_.28word.29 Libertarianism (Word)] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Libertarianism/Archive_22#Requested_move Requested Move]) and I ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Libertarianism/Archive_17#Reliable_vs_Relevant_Sources Reliable vs Relevant]) brought up a while ago that this article should discuss the current meaning of the word &quot;libertarianism&quot; and not all the meanings that the word has had. :::: I hate to point this out, but anarchists still use the word &quot;libertarian&quot; to describe their ideas. They were using it in the 1950s when Rothbard and company decided to &quot;capture&quot; it. So any discussion of &quot;the current meaning&quot; needs to include the left-wing use. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/128.40.192.31|128.40.192.31]] ([[User talk:128.40.192.31|talk]]) 07:58, 27 October 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; ::: My section on the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Libertarianism/Archive_24#Scope_of_Government scope of government] offers a rough timeline of the current meaning...rather than the various meanings of the word. The philosophy of limited government has not changed significantly in the past 200+ years. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. ::: Modern liberals stole the word &quot;liberal&quot; from modern libertarians (classical liberals) so modern libertarians stole the word &quot;libertarian&quot; from classical libertarians. Modern liberals support big government, modern libertarians support limited government and classical libertarians support no government. ::: &quot;John Stuart Mill, the great and generous theorist of liberalism, and Herbert Spencer, a major exponent of laissez-faire individualism, whose writings appealed immensely to the Spanish anarchists, can be - and have been - rightly designated as 'libertarians'&quot; - Anarchist seeds beneath the snow :::Thanks 128 for providing additional evidence that we're dealing with different meanings of the word &quot;libertarianism&quot; --[[User:Xerographica|Xerographica]] ([[User talk:Xerographica|talk]]) 21:13, 26 October 2010 (UTC) ::::Beating that dead horse ''again''? The word does not have &quot;different meanings&quot;, it rather forms a [[semantic]] [[continuum]], which is precisely what this article should elaborate. [[User:Yworo|Yworo]] ([[User talk:Yworo|talk]]) 06:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC) :::::Seeing a continuum in meaning might be the interpretation of some sources, but it's not the view of Rothbard nor of many other libertarian thinkers. Definitely a semantic discontinuity implied here: {{quotation|“Libertarians,” in contrast, had long been simply a polite word for left-wing anarchists, that is for anti-private property anarchists, either of the communist or syndicalist variety. But now we had taken it over, and more properly from the view of etymology; since we were proponents of individual liberty and therefore of the individual’s right to his property.}} ::::: --[[User:Born2cycle|Born2cycle]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]]) 06:18, 27 October 2010 (UTC) ::::::Yawn. The tertiary sources sort this out by finding the elements which are common across the continuity while also showing in what way the variants differ. We should follow these tertiary sources for the logic and structure of the article, as has been previously discussed and agreed on except by one or two habitually [[WP:TEDIOUS|tendentious]] editors. Feel free to wear the shoe if it fits. [[User:Yworo|Yworo]] ([[User talk:Yworo|talk]]) 06:23, 27 October 2010 (UTC) :::::::Please stop with the personal attacks. :::::::Tertiary sources like Brittanica don't even recognize the different meaning of the term which Rothbard refers to as ''&quot;had long been simply a polite word for left-wing anarchists, that is for anti-private property anarchists&quot;''. The anti-property sense of the word is generally not recognized in generic tertiary sources like Brittanica (Boaz), Stanford (Vallentyne) and IEP (Zwolinski). See [[Talk:Libertarianism/OverviewDraft2]]. --[[User:Born2cycle|Born2cycle]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]]) 16:47, 27 October 2010 (UTC) :::::::The historical approach/emphasis to use of the word is best since involves least WP:OR, except where one or preferably more sources have a good analysis. Rothbard's words obviously relevant and should be attributed to him. While by the time many of us got to libertarianism (like me in 1979) we'd lost the old history of the left association, and it should be made clear Rothbard's views on that. But Hess's views on the evolution of the word - and seems to me there's some ref somewhere - also relevant. [[User:Carolmooredc|CarolMooreDC]] ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|talk]]) 16:50, 27 October 2010 (UTC) == Time Framework for &quot;Common Tenets&quot; Development? == This refers to work in the overviewdraft2 sub-page. Looking for just your &quot;quick gut feel&quot; answer on this. What I'm getting to is to what extent any description of common tenets would need to acknowledges changes over time, which means how much have they changed? I guess the three possibilities would be: #Very little No special provision need be made for changes over time. #Changes in just a few areas. Just adding notes about those particular changes would suffice. #Major Changes Any desctiption of common tenets must be given an era context (e.g. present day, mid 20th century, prior to the 1960 etc. ) And if you pick this one, could you suggest (an) era description(s) to include in addition to &quot;present day&quot; [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 11:35, 27 October 2010 (UTC) :First, are you talking about the History section of final article? (Let's not drift into WP:OR analysis as just mentioned above.) If so, give us examples of section titles that might help divide it up. (Also give link to the relevant page every time. I always forget where it is.) [[User:Carolmooredc|CarolMooreDC]] ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|talk]]) 16:59, 27 October 2010 (UTC) Right now it's basically using (and possibly tweaking) the structure in overviewdraft2 to arrive at common tenets which would be used to guide a draft of the overview section.[[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 00:31, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :I'd greatly prefer to avoid &quot;quick gut feel&quot; and stick to &quot;reliably sourced&quot;. If sources discuss changes over time we're golden. If they don't, we don't. &quot;Gut feel&quot; sounds far too much like &quot;[[WP:OR|our own opinions]]&quot;, which isn't a sound route for articles to take. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 00:36, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :: This was only to decide whether the &quot;common tenets&quot; section in the worksheet needs to be split into eras, not to create content. [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 12:06, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :::I appreciate that, but I still believe it's a bad idea. [[/OverviewDraft2]] should be referenced just as much as the article itself or we stray into OR territory. Our own views, our own opinions, should not be a factor either in the article or in the development of the article. We're editors, not researchers or academics. There are plenty of fora on the Internet where we can debate stuff like this, but here we should focus on the article and on the development of the article, and we should do that by following reliable sources, not by undertaking our own research. The purpose of the draft is to look at high-level, tertiary sources and apply weighting based on occurrences in those sources - not to detail our own views and then try and find secondary (or even primary) sources that fit with our own opinions. That seems to have been a recurring problem with this article in the past, and it's something that I'd really like to move away from so that we focus on editing and not research. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 12:21, 28 October 2010 (UTC) ::::I agree with TFOWR. That's why I would provide only the briefest sectional outline OR a fully sourced draft. One of these days :-) [[User:Carolmooredc|CarolMooreDC]] ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|talk]]) 03:50, 29 October 2010 (UTC) ::::: Well, I guess that we'll let the need or non-need for an era split on the worksheet be determined by the work there. [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 10:51, 29 October 2010 (UTC) == Let's move forward == Everything has focused on the work on overviewdraft2 (including common tenets development), which I think is excellent work not only for the overview, but as a foundation for other work on the article. But work there seems to have stalled. Is anybody planning on adding more material in the next couple weeks? If not, I think that it's time to start summarizing based on what is there. [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 11:42, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :I'm not sure I'd say it's stalled; {{diff2|393094814|last edit was only a week ago}}. There is still some fairly major work to do: Stanford (Vallentyne) needs to be fleshed out. Apart from that if everyone could check Britannica (Boaz), Stanford (Vallentyne) and IEP (Zwolinski) that would be good - it'll ensure we're all on &quot;the same page&quot;. But once Stanford is done I agree we could move on to sorting out weightings etc - more tertiary sources would be nice but three seems fine. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 13:25, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :: I guess me saying &quot;stalled&quot; was an overstatement. [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 13:53, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::Maybe, but we probably needed a boot up the backside anyway ;-) I'll try and take a look at Zwolinski over the next few days (it's one area I've not done anything in, so I figure I'm a good choice for looking it over). If you could either check Boaz or expand Vallentyne that would be good, too. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 14:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Help_desk&diff=394375830</id> <title>Wikipedia:Help desk</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Help_desk&diff=394375830"/> <updated>2010-11-02T13:37:52Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: /* fix template pls */ Done <hr /> <div> {{/Header}}&lt;div style=&quot;position: absolute; top: 6.4em; right: 1.0em; border: 1px solid #a9a9a9; background: #fff;&quot; class=&quot;boilerplate metadata plainlinks&quot;&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[#footer|&amp;nbsp;Skip to bottom&amp;nbsp;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/div&gt; __TOC__ &lt;!-- This page is for the answers you need to know about using Wikipedia! --&gt; &lt;!-- For knowledge questions, please use the [[Wikipedia:Reference Desk]]! --&gt; &lt;!-- --&gt; &lt;!-- Ask your question at the bottom of this page. It will be answered shortly. --&gt; &lt;!-- --&gt; {{Wikipedia:Help_desk/Archives/2010 October 30}} = October 31 = == Can't log in on a new computer == I'm logged in right now on my old XP computer, but I get an error when trying to log in on my new W7 computer. I'm entering the same password but I get a does not match error. I can't find anything in FAQ. keoka 01:55, 31 October 2010 (UTC) &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Keoka|Keoka]] ([[User talk:Keoka|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Keoka|contribs]]) &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Please be extra-certain that you are entering the correct password before blaming something else. Type the password in a textbox outside the password field (the search box, for instance) to be sure it's correct, then paste it into the password field. Make sure you aren't misremembering your password -- on the XP machine, if you have the password saved in your browser, be certain that you are not capitalizing a letter that should be miniscule or making some other small mistake. (In Firefox, Tools -&gt; Preferences -&gt; Security -&gt; Saved Passwords... -&gt; Show Passwords.) Finally, I have been baffled by some websites that have case-sensitive usernames; although I don't think that is the case here, if you are typing your username as &quot;keoka&quot; it wouldn't hurt to try it as &quot;Keoka&quot;. In any case, if none of that works, your only choice left may be to request a password reset. Before doing that, go on the XP machine and make sure you associate a valid e-mail address with your account. [[User:Xenon54|Xenon54]] ([[User talk:Xenon54|talk]]) 02:20, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :Some browsers can store a password for a site and automatically replace what you enter. If you still have problems then which browser are you using on W7? [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 02:34, 31 October 2010 (UTC) == article == Hi i am new user in wikipedia i add new bio about a political activist in lebanon named toni hadchiti after the submitting of this content, i got a big warning talking about ads because i put toni's website inside the text &amp; wikipedia didnt consider the text as biography how should i categorize it as resume ? : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toni_hadchiti &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Hanadi Ahmar|Hanadi Ahmar]] ([[User talk:Hanadi Ahmar|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Hanadi Ahmar|contribs]]) 03:18, 31 October 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :The article was deleted because it read like an advertisement. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a resume posting service. See [[WP:NOT]] for more on that. &lt;span style=&quot;font-family:monospace;&quot;&gt;[[User:Dismas|Dismas]]&lt;/span&gt;|[[User talk:Dismas|&lt;sup&gt;(talk)&lt;/sup&gt;]] 07:49, 31 October 2010 (UTC) == Question not in help desk? == Wikipedia The question asked on October 30 and 2010 related to the philosophical science Unconscious - The Real Life is not found and hence unanswered. Please help me locate the article where is it as I need to find out the reason of its ignorance. Regards Sushil10s &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/59.161.133.221|59.161.133.221]] ([[User talk:59.161.133.221|talk]]) 05:13, 31 October 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Hi Sushil10s, :Your question appears higher up on this page, along with an answer. Click '''[[Wikipedia:Help_desk#Question|this]]''' link to jump to it. :Regards, [[User:Adrian J. Hunter|Adrian&amp;nbsp;'''J.'''&amp;nbsp;Hunter]]&lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Adrian J. Hunter|talk]]•[[Special:contributions/Adrian J. Hunter|contribs]])&lt;/sup&gt; 06:09, 31 October 2010 (UTC) == Where is the philosophical science? == Wikipedia The question asked on October 30 and 2010 related to the philosophical science Unconscious - The Real Life is not found and hence unanswered. Please help me locate the article where is it as I need to find out the reason of its ignorance. Regards Sushil10s &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/115.117.141.85|115.117.141.85]] ([[User talk:115.117.141.85|talk]]) 06:27, 31 October 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :There are three older questions from you further up this page - [[#How_to_make_the_unique_content_.28without_references.29_published_on_Wikipedia.3F|one]], [[#Eager_to_publish.21|two]], [[#Question|three]] - plus this one and the previous one from today. All have been answered. You have created an article [[Unconscious - The Real Life]] but I do not see it mentioned in any of the questions. If you have more questions please feel free to ask them here. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 07:47, 31 October 2010 (UTC) ::Sushil, part of your problem may be that you are editing from a [[dynamic IP]] address, which makes it very hard to return to previous edits. If you were to [[Special:UserLogin/signup|create an account]], the &quot;my contributions&quot; tab would make navigating to previous edits simple, including the various questions and duplicate questions you have asked, all of which have been answered. See [[Wikipedia:Account#Benefits_explained]] for more details. [[User:Karenjc|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;Ka&lt;/font&gt;]][[User_talk:Karenjc|renjc]] 13:32, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :::Sushil, I note that you do have an account, but have been editing while logged out, which is why you have been finding it difficult to keep track of your contributions. The article you created is at [[Unconscious - The Real Life]]. Unfortunately it appears to be an attempt to discuss your self-published [[WP:OR|original research]], as discussed in your earlier questions, so I have nominated it for deletion. The discussion is at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Unconscious - The Real Life]] and you are welcome to contribute. If you can demonstrate that this philosophical concept is an established one, which has been covered in multiple reliable sources and thus merits an encyclopaedia article, please add your evidence there. [[User:Karenjc|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;Ka&lt;/font&gt;]][[User_talk:Karenjc|renjc]] 14:10, 31 October 2010 (UTC) == SUGGESTION FOR IMPROVING CONTENT == Dear Sir, I am an ardent admirer of your web site. I was under the heading TABLA &amp; also C V Raman - the great Nobel lauret who is known to have worked on colours / spectrophotometry tec. But he did wonderful study on TABLA and audio / music too. For example he took TABLA, sprinkled talcum powder and externally excited it with sine wave from a speaker. The talcum powder got distributed on the surface of the Tabla skin in a particular manner - when it started resonating with the excitation ferqeuncy. He then excited it with different harmonics of the fundamental freqeuncy and found different patterns. Now you refer to a black patch in the tabla- in one it is in the center and in the other it is off set. So the one in the tabla with patch (ink made of rice starch etc) in the center gets excited at even harmonics and the other which has patch with off set gets exicted at odd harmonics. So depending the skill used in applying the patch, the response of the tabla can vary. Moreover the material used for the cavity (made of wood, copper, brass, aluminumetc) can result in different performances. Western drums do not have this patch and so effect of harmonics is not there. Similary electronic instrumemnts developed lack similar finies. These issues have not been brought out under TABLA or C V raman's research !! kindly do needful Regards Divekar &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Mohan divekar|Mohan divekar]] ([[User talk:Mohan divekar|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Mohan divekar|contribs]]) 09:05, 31 October 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Sounds interesting. If you can provide [[WP:CITE|citations]] to [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] to support the information and confirm its significance, feel free to be [[WP:BOLD|bold]] and add it. [[User:Karenjc|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;Ka&lt;/font&gt;]][[User_talk:Karenjc|renjc]] 09:47, 31 October 2010 (UTC) == Contentious words == I'm looking for a list of negative or contentious words, words like murder/murder/killed/rapist etc. I'd like an exhaustive list like maybe 500+ words or so. Regards, [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]])&lt;/sup&gt; 11:22, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :Hi SunCreator, :This page is really for help using Wikipedia. You might have better luck finding someone who could answer a question like this at the [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language|language reference desk]]. :Regards, [[User:Adrian J. Hunter|Adrian&amp;nbsp;'''J.'''&amp;nbsp;Hunter]]&lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Adrian J. Hunter|talk]]•[[Special:contributions/Adrian J. Hunter|contribs]])&lt;/sup&gt; 11:41, 31 October 2010 (UTC) ::I'm not sure whether this would be any use to you, but check out [[User:Raymond_arritt/badwords]]. [[User:Adrian J. Hunter|Adrian&amp;nbsp;'''J.'''&amp;nbsp;Hunter]]&lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Adrian J. Hunter|talk]]•[[Special:contributions/Adrian J. Hunter|contribs]])&lt;/sup&gt; 12:02, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :::The research described in [http://www.liwc.net/LIWC2007LanguageManual.pdf this] document uses a list of negative words. I'm not sure whether the list itself is publicly available. [[User:Adrian J. Hunter|Adrian&amp;nbsp;'''J.'''&amp;nbsp;Hunter]]&lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Adrian J. Hunter|talk]]•[[Special:contributions/Adrian J. Hunter|contribs]])&lt;/sup&gt; 13:03, 31 October 2010 (UTC) ::::Thanks. Regards, [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]])&lt;/sup&gt; 14:46, 31 October 2010 (UTC) == Education Sector in Pakistan == Please check Setting up Direction &amp; Policy for Education Sector in Pakistan. My id is Ahmedabdul.azeem the above article has been filed under Education Sector in Pakistan. I want it to file under Education in Pakistan. How to change the category title under which my article is currently appearing (I made mistake, need to correct it) kindly advise regards [[User:Ahmedabdul.azeem|Ahmed Abdulazeem]] ([[User talk:Ahmedabdul.azeem|talk]]) 11:36, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :Your text is currently a [[WP:UP#SUB|user space draft]] at [[User:Ahmedabdul.azeem/Education Sector in Pakistan]]. If and when it is moved into place as a real article, you will have an opportunity to choose a new name for it - see [[WP:SYMUD|So you made a user-space draft]]. However, your text as it stands is not suitable for Wikipedia - it is written as an essay, and does not reference any sources - see [[WP:NOTESSAY|this guideline]]. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 12:04, 31 October 2010 (UTC) ::I note in your first edit summary, you wrote, &quot;The matter included in this article is my own and I reserve all the rights attached to it and/or those entrusted to this website.&quot; I'm afraid it doesn't work that way. All text submitted to Wikipedia is irrevocably released under the CC-BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL. This is stated at the bottom of the page whenever you click &quot;edit&quot;. Full details are at the [http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use Terms of Use]. [[User:Adrian J. Hunter|Adrian&amp;nbsp;'''J.'''&amp;nbsp;Hunter]]&lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Adrian J. Hunter|talk]]•[[Special:contributions/Adrian J. Hunter|contribs]])&lt;/sup&gt; 12:20, 31 October 2010 (UTC) {{ec}}::I agree that it is not suitable for Wikipedia. As it stands, it is not even suitable for userspace as it states &quot;Permission is granted to copy, print, or publish this document by citing the name of the writer of this document.&quot;. As it says below this edit field, &quot; You irrevocably agree to release your contributions under the CC-BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL.&quot;. I can't suggest any way that you can turn this into something suitable without changing it almost beyond recognition. Wikipedia is not an appropriate place for a discussion document, a proposal, etc. and it quite clearly starts &quot;A DOCUMENT TO INITIATE DEBATE by: Ahmed Abdulazeem&quot;. I am also wondering if you realise that anyone can edit/change it? [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 12:29, 31 October 2010 (UTC) ::Yes, Wikipedia doesn't seem suited to your needs. There are many [[web hosting services]] that would allow you to publish this under your own terms, where it could not be edited by other people. If you want your essay removed from Wikipedia to stop other people copying it or changing it, first save a copy for yourself, then type &lt;nowiki&gt;{{db-userreq}}&lt;/nowiki&gt; anywhere on that page, and it will be deleted shortly. [[User:Adrian J. Hunter|Adrian&amp;nbsp;'''J.'''&amp;nbsp;Hunter]]&lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Adrian J. Hunter|talk]]•[[Special:contributions/Adrian J. Hunter|contribs]])&lt;/sup&gt; 12:55, 31 October 2010 (UTC) ==Problem saving edits== Good Day, I would like to edit the biography section on the Wikipedia page for [[Charles Nemeroff]], M.D., Ph.D. However, after numerous attempts I have not been able to successfully save my edits. Can you provide some help. Sincerely, Carmen Alsina Assistant to Charles B. Nemeroff, M.D., Ph.D. 305-243-6400 [[User:Calsina|Calsina]] ([[User talk:Calsina|talk]]) 13:37, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :You'll see from the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Charles_Nemeroff&amp;action=history page history] that your edits have been reverted. You've had a number of warnings on your [[User talk:Calsina|talk page]], so please read them. [[User:David Biddulph|David Biddulph]] ([[User talk:David Biddulph|talk]]) 13:45, 31 October 2010 (UTC) ::If you are editing on behalf of Dr Nemeroff, see [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Help]] for advice. [[User:JohnCD|JohnCD]] ([[User talk:JohnCD|talk]]) 15:04, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :::I will also open up discussion at the talk page of the article. [[User:Casliber|Casliber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 01:26, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Bracket in title of cite news messing up reference == I know the fix of [[percent-encoding]] urls as a work-around to the problem of brackets or other characters that break them. I have a related problem for which this fix is not working. I am [[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit/Maurice Daly|working on an article]] in which I want to place [sic] in a title field in {{tl|cite news}}. Using [sic] breaks the template and using %5Bsic%5D as a replacement isn't helping. I also tried using {{tl|sic}}, which also doesn't work. Any ideas? Thanks.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 14:14, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :Have you tried (sic) instead of [sic]? [[User:David Biddulph|David Biddulph]] ([[User talk:David Biddulph|talk]]) 14:17, 31 October 2010 (UTC) ::Never mind, fixed. All I needed was nowiki tags. Regarding (sic), that would have been a last resort if I couldn't find a fix. Thanks.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 14:22, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :::(strangely, e/c with both) [[:Template:Cite book/doc]] helpfully says the [] characters must be escaped but doesn't recommend a way to do it. I figured it out, but I don't know the name of the codes ([[ISO-8859-1]] maybe?): {{cite news|title=Thes ees a gud nwes artikel &amp;#91;sic&amp;#93;|work=Fox News|url=http://www.example.com}} [[User:Xenon54|Xenon54]] ([[User talk:Xenon54|talk]]) 14:25, 31 October 2010 (UTC) ::::Cool. I've used that instead as a more elegant work-around.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 14:33, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :::::See [[Help:URL]], specifically the link to [[m:Help:URL#URLs in external links]]. ---'''''—&amp;nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|&lt;span style=&quot;color:gray&quot;&gt;Gadget850&amp;nbsp;(Ed)&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:darkblue&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;'''''&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:48, 31 October 2010 (UTC) == Removing deleted article from Google search results == When an article has been deleted, it still shows up on a Google search and clicking on the result takes the enquirer to the deletion notice. This can be embarrassing to the subject of a deleted BLP. How long will it normally be before a deleted article drops off Google's radar? Can that be accelerated? I have tried following the procedure at [[WP:GOOGLEPURGE]], but I am not sure it will work for a deleted article as it requires one to certify that &quot;The page returns a 404/410, or has been blocked by robots.txt or a noindex meta tag&quot; and I don't think a deleted WP page satisfies that. [[User:JohnCD|JohnCD]] ([[User talk:JohnCD|talk]]) 14:32, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :How search engines, mirrors, archive sites etcetera respond is beyond our control. Typically from what I've seen in Google pages are removed in a few days, but it does vary from article to article and possible from searcher to searcher also. Regards, [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]])&lt;/sup&gt; 14:40, 31 October 2010 (UTC) ::I don't understand how to use it but there is a Google &quot;url removal tool&quot; for urgent requests. See [http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=en&amp;answer=164734 here].--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 14:46, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :::Yes, but that's the one that requires that &quot;The page returns a 404/410, or has been blocked by robots.txt or a noindex meta tag&quot; and I don't think that is true, or can be made to be true, of a WP deleted page. [[User:JohnCD|JohnCD]] ([[User talk:JohnCD|talk]]) 14:52, 31 October 2010 (UTC) ::::A deleted page has meta tag content=&quot;noindex,nofollow&quot; set. Regards, [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]])&lt;/sup&gt; 14:58, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :::::Ah, good, then maybe my GOOGLEPURGE request will work. We'll see. Thanks. [[User:JohnCD|JohnCD]] ([[User talk:JohnCD|talk]]) 15:05, 31 October 2010 (UTC) ::::::It's likely Google would of known of it before you even got around to thinking about GOOGLEPURGE. For a big important site like Wikipedia I imagine it will intelligently be checked thousands of pages per second. The delay is not in finding out what is no longer a page to be listed but the internal removal from all it's [[Data center|datacenters]]. Regards, [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]])&lt;/sup&gt; 15:18, 31 October 2010 (UTC) == Unconscious - The Real Life == Wikipedia The user Sushil10s received an intimation (below) form Karenjc 14:01, 31 October 2010: ''This is an attempt to promote someone's self-published OR essay on a new &quot;philosophical science&quot;.'' Further, as the user asked information four times to you and received encouraging guidelines to publish an article (and published), next intimation (continuation of the above) was: &quot;''Nominator unsure of category''&quot; Discussion ''The article is entirely neutral and is unique'' and does not belong to the user. It will remain undisputed and no copyright violation is there as it is unique and goes in an acceptable way with, and according to, your basic article publication policies. These features shall avoid for the article to be in the discussion for 'AfD'. The indication given to be in AfD is &quot;Nominator unsure of category&quot; which is unreasonable as the category is [[Philosophy]] and it is also following the concepts of the psychology. However, as the user was not sure how to add multiple categories and also asked questions four times so it was looking awkward to interfere repeatedly in the [[Help Desk]]. If you like the user to add further categories or editing according to your view, it would be good enough for the user to work upon. Moreover, there was no sponsorship (or scholarship) for the philosopher and was going through financial hardship. It should be our approach as a human to work for the philosopher's view. This was the reason the user was putting all the efforts (for web marketing) which may not be gentle, to make the philosophy as an acceptable view to all of us. Again, the article is entirely unique and does not belong to the user; and I apologize for not being gentle in the web market. If you can guide what best to do in keeping this article at its place (wikipedia) including the presence in the web world to remain approachable to all, the user would be grateful to you. We all are pleased to use your service for reliable information. Regards Sushil10s &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Sushil10s|Sushil10s]] ([[User talk:Sushil10s|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sushil10s|contribs]]) 15:12, 31 October 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :The place to comment about this is the [[WP:AFD|deletion discussion]] at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Unconscious - The Real Life]], but before commenting there, please read [[Wikipedia:No original research]], which will explain to you that Wikipedia is not the place to publish your original ideas. [[User:JohnCD|JohnCD]] ([[User talk:JohnCD|talk]]) 15:26, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :This is now at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Unconscious - The Real Life]]. The main reason is that it is your own original thought, see [[WP:OR]] and as such does not belong here - you need to read [[WP:VERIFY]] also. [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 15:26, 31 October 2010 (UTC) == Chapeau Act == You don't have a listing explaining what a Chapeau Act is. A Chapeau Act is a circus act that involves people wearing multiple layers of clothing. I even tried Google &amp; Yahoo searches &amp; no links. Also there is no listing for all the different types of circus acts. Thank you, Tony &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/146.244.77.66|146.244.77.66]] ([[User talk:146.244.77.66|talk]]) 15:20, 31 October 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :If Google and Yahoo have no links about it, then unless you can provide references to [[WP:IRS|reliable sources]], it is probably not [[WP:N|notable]] enough to be included in Wikipedia. -- [[User:Bk314159|Bk314159]] ([[User talk:Bk314159|Talk to me]] and [[Special:Contributions/Bk314159|find out what I've done]]) 19:11, 31 October 2010 (UTC) == Unconscious - The Real Life == Wikipedia The user has submitted the discussion for Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Unconscious - The Real Life and wishes to confirm whether it has been placed correctly where it needed to be. Or Look at the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion/Unconscious_-_The_Real_Life and please tell- Is it right or should have been located somewhere else? Regards Sushil10s &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Sushil10s|Sushil10s]] ([[User talk:Sushil10s|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sushil10s|contribs]]) 16:04, 31 October 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :No, any comments you want to make on whether this article should be kept or not should be placed at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Unconscious - The Real Life]]. [[User:Nthep|NtheP]] ([[User talk:Nthep|talk]]) 16:10, 31 October 2010 (UTC) ::Your comments have been copied to the correct place by another user. [[User:JohnCD|JohnCD]] ([[User talk:JohnCD|talk]]) 16:39, 31 October 2010 (UTC) == My password doesn't work and I can't get a new one == Either I've forgotten my password or it doesn't work. I have requested that my password be reset. I've checked my email trash and spam folders, but I'm getting no response. I am a regular contributor to Wikipedia. ::And I entered my question in the wrong place. Nobody is perfect. [[Special:Contributions/12.71.84.89|12.71.84.89]] ([[User talk:12.71.84.89|talk]]) 18:18, 31 October 2010 (UTC) -- [[User:Softtest123]] [[Special:Contributions/12.71.84.89|12.71.84.89]] ([[User talk:12.71.84.89|talk]]) 20:34, 30 October 2010 (UTC) :There's some advice at [[Help:Logging_in#What_if_I_forget_the_password.3F]]. That seems a drastic step to me, but I'm not aware of any other workarounds for a lost password. Silly question: Are you sure that the email address registered with your Wikipedia account is the same as the one you checking? -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 21:24, 31 October 2010 (UTC) == Foreign Language Articles == What's the policy regarding links to foreign language article? I've been creating some articles for some award winning mathematicians. I used Google to find all mention of them on other pages, so I could Wikify as much as possible. Two of these pages were on the German language Wikipedia. They were not linked, so I added the link &lt;tt&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[[:en:page name]]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/tt&gt;. Well, someone's come along, reverted my edits and given me a level one Twinkle-like warning (presumably for vandlaism!) What's going on here?! &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;&quot;&gt;— [[User:Fly by Night|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Segoe print&quot;&gt;'''''Fly by Night'''''&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;font color=&quot;#000000&quot;&gt;([[User talk:Fly by Night|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Segoe print&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/span&gt;]])&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 20:43, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :I presume you are editing on the German Wikipedia, correct? If so, I believe users are not supposed to add interwiki links, except for the Languages section in the toolbox (&lt;nowiki&gt;[[en:page name]]&lt;/nowiki&gt;). [[User:WikiCopter|WikiCopter]] ([[User talk:WikiCopter|radio]] • [[Special:Contributions/WikiCopter|sorties]] • [[commons:User:WikiCopter|images]] • [[User:AirplanePro|lost]] • [[WP:CVU|defense]] • [[WP:ONAU|attack]]) 21:00, 31 October 2010 (UTC) ::I ''was'' editing on the German language Wikipedia, yes. But I won't be going back there again. What's the German for [[WP:BITE|Please do not bite the newcomers]]? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;&quot;&gt;— [[User:Fly by Night|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Segoe print&quot;&gt;'''''Fly by Night'''''&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;font color=&quot;#000000&quot;&gt;([[User talk:Fly by Night|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Segoe print&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/span&gt;]])&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:27, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :::Wikipedia languages can make their own rules. [[Help:Interlanguage links#Inline interlanguage links]] mentions the possibility of inline-linking ''from'' English articles to another language but it's rarely done. [[:de:Hilfe:Internationalisierung#Inline-Link]] bans the same from German articles. It was linked in the polite message you received at [[:de:Benutzer Diskussion:Fly by Night]]. It wasn't a vandalism warning. The edit summary called it a &quot;Level 1 warning&quot; and I think you are putting too much into that. I don't know the German practice but various level 1 warnings are common for non-vandalism edits in English. See [[Wikipedia:Template messages/User talk namespace]]. They are called &quot;level 1 warnings&quot; because they are part of a warning level system, but at level 1 they are often more like polite pointers than &quot;warnings&quot; and might not have been called warnings at all if they weren't part of a system. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 03:58, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :::Also note that [[Wikipedia:Template messages/User talk namespace#Multi-level templates]] says: :::*Level 1 – [[Wikipedia:Assume good faith|Assumes good faith]]. Generally includes &quot;Welcome to Wikipedia&quot; or some variant. :::[[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 04:01, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :After the above explanations, you might not want to use it but I think the relevant phrase from the parallel page is &quot;Bitte sei nicht aggressiv zu Neulingen&quot; (&quot;please do not be aggressive with newcomers&quot;).--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 21:52, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Multiple images == I've tried to use the template {{tl|multiple images}}, but I can't get it to work as I might like. I have a verticle list of images and I want them to become thinner and shorter. I change the &lt;tt&gt;width&lt;/tt&gt; parameter, but that only changes the width of the images, and ''not'' the width of the box containing all of the images and the text. Take a look at [[User talk:Fly by Night/Medals]] and see if you can find a way to fix it. I want it to be more discreet. It looks great with &lt;tt&gt;width = 100&lt;/tt&gt;, but that's far too wide. It's bigger than my user page. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;&quot;&gt;— [[User:Fly by Night|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Segoe print&quot;&gt;'''''Fly by Night'''''&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;font color=&quot;#000000&quot;&gt;([[User talk:Fly by Night|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Segoe print&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/span&gt;]])&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 22:02, 31 October 2010 (UTC) == Templates == Can somebody tell me if there's a template for &quot;This section needs shortening&quot; or &quot;This section is too long,&quot; please? If there is can you post it on my talk-page. Thank you. [[User:Jayy008|Jayy008]] ([[User talk:Jayy008|talk]]) 22:33, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :Take a look at {{tl|toolong}} where is says &quot;''If a particular section of an article is getting long, even though it has already been split to its own article as per [[Wikipedia:SUMMARY|the summary style]], then it can be tagged by adding &lt;nowiki&gt;{{Very long|section|date=October 2010}}&lt;/nowiki&gt; to the top of the section.''&quot; &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;&quot;&gt;— [[User:Fly by Night|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Segoe print&quot;&gt;'''''Fly by Night'''''&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;font color=&quot;#000000&quot;&gt;([[User talk:Fly by Night|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Segoe print&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/span&gt;]])&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 23:04, 31 October 2010 (UTC) Thank you! [[User:Jayy008|Jayy008]] ([[User talk:Jayy008|talk]]) 23:12, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :P.S. You can often guess template names. If you want a name for a template for a section that's too long then type &lt;tt&gt;template:&lt;/tt&gt; into the search bar. As you continue to type, the list will narrow down. If you typed &lt;tt&gt;template:too&lt;/tt&gt; into the search bar then the template you require would be the fourth one on the list, after {{tl|toomuchtrivia}}, {{tl|toolbox}} and {{tl|tools}}. Failing that, go to Google and search &lt;tt&gt;Wikipedia template section too long&lt;/tt&gt;. Your &lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt;[http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&amp;biw=1066&amp;bih=570&amp;q=Wikipedia+template+section+too+long&amp;aq=f&amp;aqi=&amp;aql=&amp;oq=&amp;gs_rfai=&amp;fp=2681f0dd6d9da3e6 first hit]&lt;/span&gt; is the template you want. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;&quot;&gt;— [[User:Fly by Night|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Segoe print&quot;&gt;'''''Fly by Night'''''&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;font color=&quot;#000000&quot;&gt;([[User talk:Fly by Night|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Segoe print&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/span&gt;]])&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 23:14, 31 October 2010 (UTC) == Submission via e-mail == Can I submit an entry for approval via e-mail to a qualified assessor? I have Copyright on the material. [[User:Superhammer|Superhammer]] ([[User talk:Superhammer|talk]]) 23:11, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :If you wish to retain copyright in the material, then do not submit it to Wikipedia. As the &quot;Edit&quot; page says just above the &quot;Save page&quot; button, &quot;You irrevocably agree to release your contributions under the [[Wikipedia:Text_of_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_3.0_Unported_License|CC-BY-SA 3.0]] License and the [[Wikipedia:Text_of_the_GNU_Free_Documentation_License|GFDL]]. You agree that a hyperlink or URL is sufficient attribution under the Creative Commons license. See the [[foundation:Terms of Use|Terms of Use]] for details.&quot; :If you are happy to release your copyright, see [[Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials|Donating copyrighted materials]] for advice and the procedures to follow. :If you decide to submit the material, I suggest that you use the [[WP:Article Wizard|Article Wizard]] to submit it as a draft article in your user space, and then ask for it to be reviewed. Some standard advice on this follows: {{Quote box | quote = A Wizard is available to walk you through these steps. See the [[Wikipedia:Article wizard|Article Wizard]].''''' | source = Thank you. | width = 20% | align = right }} :Before creating an article, please [[Wikipedia:Searching|search]] Wikipedia first to make sure that an article does not ''already exist'' on the subject. Please also review a few of our relevant policies and guidelines with which all articles should comply. As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, articles must not contain [[Wikipedia:No original research|original research]], must be written from a [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|neutral point of view]], should [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|cite]] [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] which [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verify]] their content and must not contain [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons|unsourced, negative content about living people]]. :Articles must also demonstrate the [[Wikipedia:Notability|notability]] of the subject. Please see our subject specific guidelines for [[Wikipedia:Notability (people)|people]], [[Wikipedia:Notability (music)|bands and musicians]], [[Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies)|companies and organizations]] and [[Wikipedia:Notability (web)|web content]] and note that if you are closely associated with the subject, our [[Wikipedia:Conflict of interest|conflict of interest guideline]] strongly recommends against ''you'' creating the article. :If you still think an article is appropriate, see [[Wikipedia:Your first article]]. You might also look at [[Wikipedia:How to write a great article]] for guidance, and please consider taking a tour through the [[Wikipedia:Tutorial]] so that you know how to properly format the article before creation. An [[Wikipedia:Article wizard|Article Wizard]] is also available to walk you through creating an article.&lt;!-- Template:Creation --&gt; -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 09:07, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == please userfy ... == {{resolved}} Can an administrator please user-fy the text that was deleted at [[Talk:Intergovernmental_immunity/Temp]]? I would like to salvage it. Thank you. &lt;small&gt;[[user:Andrew Gradman|AGradman]] / [[user talk:AConcernedChicken|talk]] / how the subject page {{frozen|20101031235828|Wikipedia:Help desk|looked}} when I made this edit&lt;/small&gt; 23:58, 31 October 2010 (UTC) :{{done}}: [[User:Agradman/Talk:Intergovernmental immunity/Temp]]. Enjoy! [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 10:37, 1 November 2010 (UTC) ::thanks! = November 1 = == How do we get the article reviewed after being marked &quot;like an advertisement?&quot; == Kindly assist because the article is still being marked &quot;like an ad&quot; &amp; lack of reference even after it is edited with sufficient references. Our photos has been approved by WikiCommon but the article is pending. How do we know if it should be edited again to get it published? Thank you. &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Klmarathon|Klmarathon]] ([[User talk:Klmarathon|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Klmarathon|contribs]]) 09:54, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :There is no formal review procedure, and tags are not removed automatically. If you believe you have improved the article so that the tag is no longer appropriate, you can remove the tag. The worst that can happen is that somebody disagrees and puts it back. Make sure you give an informative Edit summary (eg Removed tag as article has been improved). --[[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 10:30, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :The article in question was [[User:Klmarathon/Standard Chartered KL Marathon]]; [[User:Klmarathon]] has been blocked as a spamusername. --[[User:Orangemike|&lt;font color=&quot;darkorange&quot;&gt;Orange Mike&lt;/font&gt;]] &amp;#x007C; [[User talk:Orangemike|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]] 12:51, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == stolen Unncovered Painting from the New York City Area for a novel == I am writing a novel about stolen art in the 1960's in New York City Area. Iwas trying to locaate information on any solen art that wa not recoverred &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/68.215.117.79|68.215.117.79]] ([[User talk:68.215.117.79|talk]]) 01:21, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :[[:Category:Art crime]] would be a good place to start exploring; you could also ask at the [[WP:RDH|Humanities Reference Desk]] to see if anyone had any ideas. --[[User:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#000099&quot;&gt;Jayron&lt;/font&gt;]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|&lt;font style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;32&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' 01:54, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Advanced search == Under the old interface, &quot;Search&quot; gave the choice of &quot;search&quot; and &quot;go&quot;. The former option seems to me now to be effectively missing. Utter pain in the butt if I want to search broadly for a term when there happens to be a Wikipedia article with that name. Offhand, the only way around this that I can see is if I explicitly navigate to [[Special:Search]], which is pretty obscure. Is there some simpler way to do this that I'm missing, or has this capability now been effectively restricted to the highly savvy? &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] ([[User talk:Jmabel|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jmabel|contribs]]) 02:35, 1 November 2010&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; :When you type a phrase into the search box, you should be getting a drop down menu - at the very bottom of that drop down menu is a link that says &quot;containing...&quot;, along with the text you typed in the search box. Clicking on that will perform a search, rather than going directly to the article. &lt;b&gt;~&lt;i&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#07517C&quot;&gt;[[User:SuperHamster|Super]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#6FA23B&quot;&gt;[[User:SuperHamster|Hamster]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt; &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:SuperHamster|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/SuperHamster|Contribs]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:49, 1 November 2010 (UTC) ::You can also search with an empty box to easily get to [[Special:Search]]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 03:32, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Creating wikipedia for an actress == Greetings, I am an actress and want to be in Wikipedia. How do I correctly create an entry about my career? Thank you [[User:TheRealMilDred|TheRealMilDred]] ([[User talk:TheRealMilDred|talk]]) 04:57, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :Well, first you have to be notable, as evidenced by coverage in third-party [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. After that, see [[Wikipedia:Creating an article]]. '''[[User:Grsz11|&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;Grsz&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Grsz11|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;11&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;''' 05:06, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :Creating an article about yourself is strongly discouraged by [[Wikipedia:Autobiography]]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 05:26, 1 November 2010 (UTC) ::One of the many things which Wikipedia is not is an organ for [[WP:PROMOTION|self-promotion]]. If you have already been noticed in multiple independent sources then Wikipedia wishes to record that. If you have not, then Wikipedia does not, at present, want an article on you. Sorry. --[[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 10:33, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Please Take This Into Consideration: == I believe that Philosophy should be listed among the prime subject names under the reading tab in your homepage. &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Angelo.medina|Angelo.medina]] ([[User talk:Angelo.medina|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angelo.medina|contribs]]) 05:34, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :A [[Portal:Philosophy|philosophy portal]] exists, if that's what you are looking for. [[User:Goodvac|&lt;span style=&quot;text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em;&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;'''''Goodvac'''''&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:Goodvac|&lt;font color=&quot;Blue&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/font&gt;]]) 05:38, 1 November 2010 (UTC) ::I guess it refers to the currently 8 portals linked at the top right of the [[Main Page]]. It appears from [[Talk:Main Page/Archive 69#Adding Philosophy to the main portals list]] that [[Portal:Philosophy]] has failed to gain support in the past. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 08:45, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Task force, work group and subproject == [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Council|WikiProject Council]]'s directory currently labels sub-groups of WikiProjects as either ''task forces'', ''work groups'', or ''subprojects''. Are there any distinctions between these three labels, for example in breadth and depth of coverage and administration? Or are they merely synonyms of one another? Thanks. [[User:AngChenrui|A&lt;small&gt;NG&lt;/small&gt;]][[User talk:AngChenrui|C&lt;small&gt;HENRUI&lt;/small&gt;]] &lt;sub&gt;[[WP:MSE]]&lt;/sub&gt;[[User:AngChenrui/BS|♨]] 09:07, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == violation droits d'auteur == bonjour, j'ai rédigé un article sur la région Picardie et le tourisme en Picardie. Les éléments de cet article sont tirés en du site www.picardietourisme-acteurs.com pour lequel je suis rédacteur en chef. Il n'y a donc aucun problème d'utilisation de ces informations. Merci de rendre accessible ce nouvel article et de supprimer le message sur l'utilisation des données. Vincent &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/80.214.253.143|80.214.253.143]] ([[User talk:80.214.253.143|talk]]) 11:04, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Si vous souhaitez autoriser Wikipedia d'utiliser le contenu de votre site web, s'il vous plaît suivez les instructions décrites sur [[WP:IOWN|cette page]]. Ici, sur la Wikipédia en anglais, tous les contenus des articles doivent être en anglais: si vous essayez de contribuer à la Wikipédia en francaise, s'il vous plaît visitez [http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Pages_soup%C3%A7onn%C3%A9es_de_violation_de_copyright#Attente_d.27autorisation_sur_OTRS cette page]. :If you want to give Wikipedia permission to use the contents of your site, please follow the steps outlined at [[WP:IOWN|this guide to donating copyright materials]]. NB that here on the English language Wikipedia, all article content must be in English. If you are trying to contribute to the French language Wikipedia (fr.wikipedia.org), please read [http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Pages_soup%C3%A7onn%C3%A9es_de_violation_de_copyright#Attente_d.27autorisation_sur_OTRS this page]. [[User:Gonzonoir|Gonzonoir]] ([[User talk:Gonzonoir|talk]]) 11:33, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == reset my page == I am Bruce Schreffler @ &lt;email removed&gt; and need to reset my pass word. can you help? &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/68.248.101.86|68.248.101.86]] ([[User talk:68.248.101.86|talk]]) 14:00, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :The only advice I can give is that you should look at [[Help:Logging in]]. Posting your email address here won't help, and will only attract spam, so I have removed it. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 14:07, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Where to report copyright violators? == I want to know that if any unregistered user indulges in a clear copyright violation, then what warnings should be given and after how many warnings, the user can be reported, so that an IP ban may be imposed on them. Also, which is the appropriate place to report such users. Thanks. - [[User:Managerarc| &lt;font face=&quot;Arial&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:Blue&quot;&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;b&gt;Managerarc&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]][[User talk:Managerarc|&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[talk]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] 14:36, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :Have a look at [[WP:Copyright problems]] and [[WP:Contact us/Article problem/Copyright]]. -- [[User:Bk314159|Bk314159]] ([[User talk:Bk314159|Talk to me]] and [[Special:Contributions/Bk314159|find out what I've done]]) 14:40, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :(edit conflict) If you find a copyright violation, the most urgent action is to protect the project by removing or blanking the text, following the instructions at [[Wikipedia:Copyright problems]]. The warning {{tp|uw-copyright}} is suitable for a first-time violation. If the same user continues to violate copyrights after being warned, this constitutes vandalism (see [[WP:VANDTYPES]]) and the usual series of escalating warnings can be followed by a report at [[WP:AIV]]. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 14:46, 1 November 2010 (UTC) ::Thanks, I got it. [[User:Managerarc| &lt;font face=&quot;Arial&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:Blue&quot;&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;b&gt;Managerarc&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]][[User talk:Managerarc|&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[talk]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] 15:27, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == [[United States]] == What is that rating box on the bottom of [[United States]], and what is the syntax (if allowed)? [[Special:Contributions/173.49.140.141|173.49.140.141]] ([[User talk:173.49.140.141|talk]]) 15:50, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :It looks as if it's [[:Category:Article Feedback Pilot]]. [[User:David Biddulph|David Biddulph]] ([[User talk:David Biddulph|talk]]) 15:57, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == [[User:Perseus, Son of Zeus]] == The coding on my account's userpage (Perseus, Son of Zeus) seems a bit messed up. The one I'm having trouble with is [[Template:Vandalism information|this one, centering it.]] Thanks! [[Special:Contributions/173.49.140.141|173.49.140.141]] ([[User talk:173.49.140.141|talk]]) 18:52, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Parameters for template &quot;user&quot; == Where can I find information on what &quot;en-2&quot; means in the following markup? &lt;nowiki&gt;{{User en-2}}&lt;/nowiki&gt; --[[User:Mortense|Mortense]] ([[User talk:Mortense|talk]]) 20:02, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :It indicates the user's level of fluency in the relevant language, in this case English at ''intermediate ability - enough for editing or discussions'' level, see [[WP:BABEL]].&amp;nbsp;–&amp;nbsp;[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 20:05, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :&quot;en-2&quot; is not a parameter in the template sense. It's simply part of the chosen name of the template {{tl|User en-2}} which is a completely different template from {{tl|User}}. &quot;en&quot; in the name doesn't have any special markup meaning to the software which handles {{tl|User en-2}} like any other template. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 20:19, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Logo entry for Wikipedia entry &quot;Linux Professional Institute&quot; == To Whom it May Concern: Please remove the logo for the &quot;Linux Professional Institute&quot; at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Professional_Institute This was changed today, November 1, 2010 by wikipedia user: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Iha9c The logo as published before was correct. This change was highly unprofessional, if not outright malicious. Furthermore, how do I register a complaint about User: Iha9c Looking forward to your prompt response. Scott Lamberton Director of Communications Linux Professional Institute http://www.lpi.org &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.49.33.151|69.49.33.151]] ([[User talk:69.49.33.151|talk]]) 20:25, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :It looks to me as though [[User:Iha9c|Iha9c]] was simply trying to supply the logo of ''another'' LPI - the [[Indonesian Premier League]] (or Liga Primera Indonesia). This wasn't the right way to go about it, but I don't believe it was unprofessional or malicious. Just about to restore the old version for the Linux Institute, and see whether this other logo is eligible for upload to a different filename [[User:Gonzonoir|Gonzonoir]] ([[User talk:Gonzonoir|talk]]) 20:33, 1 November 2010 (UTC) ::In fact, John of Reading's beaten me to the revert. Thanks John. [[User:Gonzonoir|Gonzonoir]] ([[User talk:Gonzonoir|talk]]) 20:36, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Screenplay Submission == I sent a screenplay to Hadley Films but got a broken link when I sent it. Is there a company by that name? I guess I'm just being careful. THank you very much. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.69.33.253|70.69.33.253]] ([[User talk:70.69.33.253|talk]]) 20:53, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :A Google search found http://www.hadleyfilms.com/ -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 20:56, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == finding a deleted page and un deleting it == How do I find a page that was deleted and undelete it? (it was a page about Amotz Shemi) Thanks Gili &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Gilifocht|Gilifocht]] ([[User talk:Gilifocht|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Gilifocht|contribs]]) 21:03, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :The deletion discussion is at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Amotz Shemi]]. From the comments there I don't think you'll be able to persuade an admin to undelete it for you. But there seems to be a copy of the text at [http://wikibin.org/articles/amotz-shemi.html Wikibin], an unrelated web site which keeps material that has been deleted from Wikipedia. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 21:14, 1 November 2010 (UTC) == Deletion of an article == I went through page after page of Wikipedia and finally found the complex way in which to suggest the deletion of an article. I do not have the time nor the inclination to go through such an extensive process but I do want to tell you that the article on Buzzards is 100% wrong and should be deleted ASAP so that people reading it are not led into a morass of falsehoods and misinformation. Sincerely, Calius &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Calius12|Calius12]] ([[User talk:Calius12|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Calius12|contribs]]) 22:13, 1 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Are you talking about the article [[Buzzard]]? It's unlikely that will get deleted, but if there is something wrong there, please indicate on the article's Discussion page what you find wrong. &lt;font family=&quot;Comic sans&quot;&gt;[[User:Corvus cornix|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;Corvus cornix&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sub&gt;''[[User talk:Corvus cornix|&lt;span style=&quot;color:Green&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/span&gt;]]''&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 22:14, 1 November 2010 (UTC) :I think the stuff in the 'new world' is not correct. None of it is referenced. The article is suppose to be a disambiguation? Regards, [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]])&lt;/sup&gt; 22:22, 1 November 2010 (UTC) = November 2 = == ref tags error == I was editing [[Smoking and Health: Report of the Advisory Committee to the Surgeon General of the United States]], and when I moved a citation around, another one that I didn't touch threw up a &quot;no closing &lt;/ref&gt; tag&quot; error. I triple checked it and can't find any reason it should be doing this. The citation is syntaxed properly. The one I did move has given me no problems. [[User:Somedaypilot|Somedaypilot]] ([[User talk:Somedaypilot|talk]]) 00:52, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Nevermind, I found it and fixed it. [[User:Somedaypilot|Somedaypilot]] ([[User talk:Somedaypilot|talk]]) 01:03, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == How to recover an account without the password? == I signed up for wikipedia years ago as Joel_Parker_Henderson with an email address that no longer works. How can I recover the account, for example get a new password and/or get an admin to update my email address? My email address is &lt;removed&gt; (Thank you!) &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.17.119.78|69.17.119.78]] ([[User talk:69.17.119.78|talk]]) 02:10, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :Unfortunately, the only way to have your password reset is to use the same e-mail address that was set in its preferences; otherwise, we have no way to confirm that you are who you say you are. You should probably create a new account. Also, your e-mail address has been removed. -- [[User:Bk314159|Bk314159]] ([[User talk:Bk314159|Talk to me]] and [[Special:Contributions/Bk314159|find out what I've done]]) 02:34, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Strange glitch has been bothering me lately. == The standard toolbar (The one that goes Bold, Italic to &lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;ref /ref&gt;, {{ Cite }}&lt;/nowiki&gt;) occasionally loses all the buttons to the right of Horizontal line, and I need to refresh the edit page to get them back.--[[User:Occono|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;occono&lt;/font&gt;]] ([[User talk:Occono|talk]]) 02:56, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :Please report this at [[WP:VPT]]. [[User:Mono|mⓞnⓞ]] 03:07, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::Will do, thanks. Sorry I keep coming here, it's a bad habit more then unawareness :( --[[User:Occono|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;occono&lt;/font&gt;]] ([[User talk:Occono|talk]]) 03:26, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Can I get a Wikipedia administrator to write an article about my professional gaming organization www.highrolleragaming.com == High Rollers Gaming is a professional gaming organization based out of the [[United States]]. Founded in 2001, the organization is known as being the first professional gaming organization to promote their political views for the legalization of medical marijuana; profusely threw their logo's, slogans, and name. The gamers from within the organization created slogans for themselves, and for the community of online gaming. &quot;Good Luck, have fun, don't get your high rolled.&quot; which was commonly used before games/matches/battles in game. The term &quot;highrolled&quot; from the organizations view means you are losing so bad, and you no longer have a high or buzz, it has been rolled. The [[electronic sports]] organization, started off with xbox players playing in the underground world of small gaming events in major cities, than to competing in some of the most notable events in gaming history. Professional xbox console gamers, and computer gamers from around the world High Rollers Gaming; Players, and Staff traveling to major gaming lan events around the world Our mission is to continue to advocate our dreams for professional gaming by attending these major events As we continue to pick up more players, for more games, we also await new games to come out. Gaming is on an uprise, and will only continue to grow With that comes more games, and with that brings professional gamers www.highrollersgaming.com Some links and videos about us, some from other countries ! http://tv.esl.eu/de/vod/view/21606/high (Fast Forward to 11:45) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EERVRRVSLBo http://www.gotfrag.com/cs/story/44738/?cpage=1 http://www.eseanews.co...s=news&amp;d=comments&amp;id=8042 http://www.hltv.org/ne...complexity-win-cevo-p-xii http://www.complexityg.../index.php?c=news&amp;id=1284 http://www.hltv.org/ne...ampionship-starts-tonight http://www.hltv.org/ne...rollers-acquire-irukandji http://cyberfight.ru/site/news/66530/ http://www.esports.lt/...os-visos-sesios-komandos/ http://www.esl-world.n...asters/cs_americas_s4_ac/ http://www.zotob.org/i...mpionship-finals-coverage http://www.counter-str...&amp;o=1&amp;s=executors&amp;pageID=4 http://dgamers.net/cou...-cevo-pro-season-xii.html http://www.complexityg.../index.php?c=news&amp;id=1938 http://www.esl-world.net/masters/news/102045/ Their are many more just google or yahoo us - high rollers gaming; (Game Name) Thats some info about us &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:HighRollersGaming|HighRollersGaming]] ([[User talk:HighRollersGaming|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/HighRollersGaming|contribs]]) 03:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; == Creating a wiki page == How can I submit to create a page for Joey Medina &quot; latin kings of comedy&quot; On top of all his success hbo showtime appearances he has recently obtained a syndicated fm show . www.joeymedinamorningshow.com www.963maxfm.com www.989maxfm.com www.1051maxfm.com I can be contacted at &lt;private contact information removed&gt; &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Runeria|Runeria]] ([[User talk:Runeria|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Runeria|contribs]]) 03:43, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; {{Quote box | quote = A Wizard is available to walk you through these steps. See the [[Wikipedia:Article wizard|Article Wizard]].''''' | source = Thank you. | width = 20% | align = right }} :Before creating an article, please [[Wikipedia:Searching|search]] Wikipedia first to make sure that an article does not ''already exist'' on the subject. Please also review a few of our relevant policies and guidelines with which all articles should comply. As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, articles must not contain [[Wikipedia:No original research|original research]], must be written from a [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|neutral point of view]], should [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|cite]] [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] which [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verify]] their content and must not contain [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons|unsourced, negative content about living people]]. :Articles must also demonstrate the [[Wikipedia:Notability|notability]] of the subject. Please see our subject specific guidelines for [[Wikipedia:Notability (people)|people]], [[Wikipedia:Notability (music)|bands and musicians]], [[Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies)|companies and organizations]] and [[Wikipedia:Notability (web)|web content]] and note that if you are closely associated with the subject, our [[Wikipedia:Conflict of interest|conflict of interest guideline]] strongly recommends against ''you'' creating the article. :If you still think an article is appropriate, see [[Wikipedia:Your first article]]. You might also look at [[Wikipedia:How to write a great article]] for guidance, and please consider taking a tour through the [[Wikipedia:Tutorial]] so that you know how to properly format the article before creation. An [[Wikipedia:Article wizard|Article Wizard]] is also available to walk you through creating an article.&lt;!-- Template:Creation --&gt;--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 04:33, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Citation questions and Google News &amp; Archive == Hi, everyone. I have three related questions: # Is there any policy about when to use [[template:cite news|&quot;cite news&quot;]] versus [[template:cite web|&quot;cite web&quot;]] for an online news item published by a media outlet? I saw [[WP:Citation_templates]], but it didn't address the distinction explicitly. I always use &quot;cite news&quot;, but I see a lot of other people using &quot;cite web&quot;. # I'm noticing a lot of articles lately that are including cites to [[Google News]]. As most of you know, those links break very quickly, since Google News only aggregates web content from the past 30 days. I first learned of this myself from [[Template:Cite_news#Optional_parameters]], which says, in boldface, &quot;'''Do not post urls of Google hosted AP content, that content is transient. Use MSNBC, Yahoo, or another provider that keeps AP archives.'''&quot; But I was wondering whether there might be a more direct link to the same caveat, perhaps with a more complete discussion of the problem, or even a policy statment about this? # I understand that it ''is'' permissable to cite to [[Google News Archive | Google News &lt;u&gt;Archive&lt;/u&gt;]] ( external link [http://news.google.com/archivesearch here] ) for content that's not available on the web, e.g. for pre-internet era optically-scanned newspaper pages. If an editor wants to cite Google News Archive for this purpose, he should be use &quot;cite news&quot; rather than &quot;cite web&quot; to do so, and the link to Google should be placed in that template's optional &quot;archive url&quot; field, correct? I say so because although the &quot;cite web&quot; template also includes the &quot;archive url&quot; field, the plain &quot;url&quot; field is ''required'' in &quot;cite web&quot;. The editor using &quot;cite web&quot; in this case would have no alternative but to place the archive url in the plain &quot;url&quot; field. If he does so, he's likely to also neglect to fill in the optional &quot;archive url&quot; field correctly, will likely leave it blank, and this will generate a false impression in the link as it appears in the references section. Comments, please? Many thanks, &amp;nbsp;–&amp;nbsp;&lt;font face=&quot;Cambria&quot;&gt;[[User:Ohiostandard|&lt;font color=&quot;teal&quot;&gt;'''OhioStandard'''&lt;/font&gt;]] ([[User talk:Ohiostandard|talk]])&lt;/font&gt; 04:46, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :#I don't think there is any standard. Citation templates' main function is convenience and fostering uniformity in formatting citations, but their use at all [[Wikipedia:Citing sources#Citation templates and tools|is optional]]. If cite web is used where cite news could be, and vice-versa, but the use requires no extra attribution parameters that the other contains, I don't think it matters a great deal. Using the more appropriate seeming template may have some benefit in that another person coming along who wants to add further attribution in a way that is unsupported by the mismatched template will not have to switch anything. :#I don't personally remember ever seeing this discussed but I was able to dig up [[Wikipedia:External links/Noticeboard/Archive 1#Google &quot;Hosted News&quot;|this]], for what it's worth. The text to the template looks like it was boldy added rather than after a targeted discussion [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Cite_news/doc&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=294941649 diff]. :#My understanding of archive URLs is that it is not for links to sites that describe their content as &quot;archived&quot; but for links that you have actually archived against going dead. For example, by going to http://webcitation.org/ and archiving a URL, girding against linkrot which is so common for web citations. News stories that actually appeared in a newspaper never go dead, only the link to a online ''copy'' goes dead, because the paper was printed; the link is just a convenience so that users don't have to go to the library to verify content, but the story exists regardless. This is not true of web only sources. So, you can archive web content so that even if the original content goes to meet the dodos (where all the left socks reside), then the archived link saves the day. For an example of I think proper use of an archive url, see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masako_Katsura#cite_note-Memorial-106 here]. Cheers.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 11:56, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == Siddha Yoga category == Can image files be deleted from a Category? Three files seem to have disappeared from Category:Siddha Yoga. They are Image:1-Lake-Nityananda(Fallsburg)-1, Image:1-Lake-Nityananda(Fallsburg)-2, 1-Lake-Nityananda(Fallsburg)- 3. Just a glitch perhaps? &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Sardaka|Sardaka]] ([[User talk:Sardaka|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sardaka|contribs]]) 8:58, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; :Hello Sardaka. First note that the category you are here about is at the Wikimedia Commons, [[Commons:Category:Siddha Yoga]]. There is no [[:Category:Siddha Yoga]] here (at Wikipedia), never has been, and we are a different (sister) website. The answer is yes, categories can be deleted from Commons images and this is what happened. See, for example, the removal of the category from [[:File:1-Lake-Nityananda(Fallsburg)-1.jpg]] at '''[http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:1-Lake-Nityananda%28Fallsburg%29-1.jpg&amp;action=history this page revision]'''. Cheers.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 10:28, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ::(Hi, Fuhg!) Other editors will be much more familiar with the issue than I am, but relating to Wikipedia, rather than Commons, some contributors go out of their way to delete images from categories, believing that only articles belong in categories. I came across such an editor a while back, and objected. I even asked here at the help desk, as I recall, and I think without much response, although I can't find that in the archives now. [[Wikipedia:Help_desk/Archives/2010_June_14#Adding_Commons_images_to_en_Wiki_categories | This discussion]] from the archives might be of interest to you, as well. Of course, in the absence of any policy on Commons about this, you could [[WP:BOLD | be bold]] and revert their deletion from the category by looking at the category history if it's important to you that they be included. Best, &amp;nbsp;–&amp;nbsp;&lt;font face=&quot;Cambria&quot;&gt;[[User:Ohiostandard|&lt;font color=&quot;teal&quot;&gt;'''OhioStandard'''&lt;/font&gt;]] ([[User talk:Ohiostandard|talk]])&lt;/font&gt; 10:35, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :::Hey OhioStandard. Long time no see! That's an interesting discussion, if ultimately unilluminating of what benefit there is in local categorization of Commons images (I'm not sure I see the point). I'm not much a categorization person but I'm not sure I see much point in categorizing local images either and [[WP:CAT]] says little on the subject. I wasn't focused before on the appropriateness of the removal, but now that I'm thinking about it, why would an image of a lake in New York be in a category for a Hindu spiritual movement? Ah... I see that an Ashram for the movement in the U.S. is in upstate New York, and I therefore presume it is nearby this lake; this is a tenuous connection. Sardaka I would agree with the removal of the category unless this New York State lake was somehow closely associated with the movement by third parties (not by those in the movement).--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 11:24, 2 November 2010 (UTC) == [[User:Perseus, Son of Zeus]] == The coding on my account's userpage (Perseus, Son of Zeus) seems a bit messed up. The one I'm having trouble [[Template:Vandalism information|with is this one]], centering it. Thanks! [[Special:Contributions/173.49.140.141|173.49.140.141]] ([[User talk:173.49.140.141|talk]]) 12:05, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :&lt;nowiki&gt;&quot;align=&lt;left&gt;&quot;&lt;/nowiki&gt; isn't going to work - you shouldn't be using angle-brackets around these parameters. I couldn't see how to float that template in the centre of the user page, though, so I suggest you ask the specialists at [[Wikipedia:User page design center/Help and collaboration/Help requests]]. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 13:25, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ==fix template pls== fix [[Template:Santana|this]] pls. thank you.--&lt;span style=&quot;color:Red3; background-color:#FF7F24;font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'&quot;&gt; [[User:GreatOrangePumpkin|♫Greatorangepumpkin♫]] &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:Black; background-color:#A4D3EE;font-family: 'Gigi'&quot;&gt;[[User talk:GreatOrangePumpkin|T]]&lt;/span&gt; 13:29, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :{{done}} - {{diff2|394375480|here}}. {{small|To do it, I went to the template's history page and checked a few diffs until I worked out where the problem started ({{diff2|394373003|it was here}}). I worked out what was wrong with that edit (missing &quot;&lt;nowiki&gt;}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&quot;) and re-added the &quot;&lt;nowiki&gt;}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&quot; in the correct place.}} [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 13:37, 2 November 2010 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Santana&diff=394375480</id> <title>Template:Santana</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Santana&diff=394375480"/> <updated>2010-11-02T13:35:23Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Fix <hr /> <div>{{Navbox Musical artist | name = Santana | title = [[Santana (band)|Santana]] | background = group_or_band | above = {{nowrap|'''[[Carlos Santana]]''' •}} {{nowrap|'''[[Dennis Chambers]]''' •}} {{nowrap|'''[[Pete Escovedo]]''' •}} {{nowrap|'''[[Coke Escovedo]]''' •}} {{nowrap|'''[[Armando Peraza]]'''}} | group1 = Santana albums | list1 = {{nowrap|''[[Santana (1969 album)|Santana]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Abraxas (album)|Abraxas]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Santana (1971 album)|Santana III]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Caravanserai (album)|Caravanserai]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Welcome (Santana album)|Welcome]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Borboletta]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Amigos]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Festival (Santana album)|Festival]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Moonflower (album)|Moonflower]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Inner Secrets]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Marathon (Santana album)|Marathon]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Zebop!]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Shango (Santana album)|Shangó]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Beyond Appearances]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Freedom (Santana album)|Freedom]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Spirits Dancing in the Flesh]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Milagro (Santana album)|Milagro]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Supernatural (Santana album)|Supernatural]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Shaman (album)|Shaman]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[All That I Am (Santana album)|All That I Am]]''}} | group2 = Carlos Santana albums | list2 = {{Navbox subgroup | group1 = Studio albums | list1 = {{nowrap|''[[Love Devotion Surrender]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Illuminations (Alice Coltrane and Carlos Santana album)|Illuminations]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Oneness (Carlos Santana album)|Oneness: Silver Dreams Golden Realities]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[The Swing of Delight]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Havana Moon]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Blues for Salvador]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Santana Brothers]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Guitar Heaven: Santana Performs the Greatest Guitar Classics of All Time|Guitar Heaven]]''}} | group2 = Live albums | list2 = {{nowrap|''[[Carlos Santana &amp; Buddy Miles! Live!]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Carlos Santana Live]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Carlos Santana and Wayne Shorter – Live at the Montreux Jazz Festival 1988|Live at the Montreux Jazz Festival 1988]]''}} }} | group3 = Live albums | list3 = {{nowrap|''[[Lotus (Santana album)|Lotus]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Moonflower (album)|Moonflower]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Sacred Fire: Live in South America]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Santana Live at the Fillmore]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Soul Sacrifice]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[The Very Best of Santana (Live in 1968)]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[The Woodstock Experience]]''}} | group4 = Compilations | list4 = {{nowrap|''[[Santana's Greatest Hits]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Viva Santana!]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[The Definitive Collection (Santana album)|The Definitive Collection]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Dance of the Rainbow Serpent]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[The Very Best of Santana]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[The Ultimate Collection (Santana album)|The Ultimate Collection]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[The Best of Santana]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Best Instrumentals]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Best Instrumentals Vol. 2]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[The Best of Santana Vol. 2]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[The Essential Santana]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Ceremony: Remixes &amp; Rarities]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Love Songs (Santana album)|Love Songs]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Santana Live]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Ultimate Santana]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Multi-Dimensional Warrior]]''}} | group5 = Unofficial releases | list5 = {{nowrap|''[[Samba Pa Ti (album)|Samba Pa Ti]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Persuasion (Carlos Santana album)|Persuasion]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Latin Tropical]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Santana Unofficial Album]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[The Big Jams]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Jin-Go-Lo-Ba]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Jingo &amp; More Famous Tracks]]'' •}} {{nowrap|''[[Santana Jam]]'' }} | group6 = Singles | list6 = {{nowrap|&quot;[[Santana (1969 album)|Jingo]]&quot; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[Evil Ways]]&quot; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[Black Magic Woman]]&quot; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[Oye Como Va]]&quot; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[Hope You're Feeling Better]]&quot; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;Everybody's Everything&quot; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[No One to Depend On]]&quot; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[Europa (Earth's Cry Heaven's Smile)]]&quot; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;Let It Shine&quot; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[She's Not There]]&quot; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;Stormy&quot; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[You Know That I Love You]]&quot; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;Changes&quot; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;Searchin'&quot; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[Winning (Santana song)|Winning]]&quot; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;The Sensitive Kind&quot; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[Hold On (Santana song)|Hold On]]&quot; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;Say It Again&quot; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[Smooth (song)|Smooth]]&quot; &lt;small&gt;(w/ [[Rob Thomas (musician)|Rob Thomas]])&lt;/small&gt; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[Maria Maria]]&quot; &lt;small&gt;(w/ [[The Project G&amp;B]]) &lt;/small&gt; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[Put Your Lights On]]&quot; &lt;small&gt;(w/ [[Everlast (musician)|Everlast]]) &lt;/small&gt; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[The Game of Love (Santana song)|The Game of Love]]&quot; &lt;small&gt;(w/ [[Michelle Branch]]) &lt;/small&gt;•}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[Nothing at All (Santana song)|Nothing At All]]&quot; &lt;small&gt;(w/ [[Musiq Soulchild]]) &lt;/small&gt;•}}{{nowrap|&quot;[[Feels Like Fire]]&quot; &lt;small&gt;(w/ [[Dido (singer)|Dido]]) &lt;/small&gt;•}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[Why Don't You &amp; I]]&quot; &lt;small&gt;(w/ [[Chad Kroeger]]) &lt;/small&gt;•}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[I'm Feeling You]]&quot; &lt;small&gt;(w/ [[Michelle Branch]] &amp; [[The Wreckers]]) &lt;/small&gt;•}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[Just Feel Better]]&quot; &lt;small&gt;(w/ [[Steven Tyler]]) &lt;/small&gt;•}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[Cry Baby Cry (Santana song)|Cry Baby Cry]]&quot; &lt;small&gt;(w/ [[Sean Paul]] and [[Joss Stone]]) &lt;/small&gt;•}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[No Llores]]&quot; &lt;small&gt;(w/ [[Gloria Estefan]], [[Jose Feliciano]] and [[Sheila E.]]) &lt;/small&gt;•}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[Into the Night (Santana song)|Into the Night]]&quot; &lt;small&gt;(w/ [[Chad Kroeger]]) &lt;/small&gt;•}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[While My Guitar Gently Weeps]]&quot; &lt;small&gt;(w/ [[India.Arie]] and [[Yo-Yo Ma]]&quot;}}) | group7 = Other Songs | list7 = {{nowrap|&quot;[[Carnaval (song)|Carnaval]]&quot; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[Illegal (song)|Illegal]]&quot; &lt;small&gt;(w/ [[Shakira]])&lt;/small&gt; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[Jugando]]&quot; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[Let the Children Play]]&quot; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[Revelations (Santana song)|Revelations]]&quot; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[This Boy's Fire]]&quot; &lt;small&gt;(w/ [[Jennifer Lopez]] and [[Baby Bash]])&lt;/small&gt; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[Verão Vermelho]]&quot;}} | group8 = Related Articles | list8 = {{nowrap|&quot;[[Santana discography|Discography]]&quot; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[Santana videography|Videography]]&quot; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;[[List of awards and nominations received by Santana]]&quot; }} |below = '''{{nowrap|&quot;{{Icon|Category}} [[:Category:Santana (band)|Category]]&quot;•}} {{nowrap|&quot;{{Icon|Portal}} [[Portal:Santana|Portal]]&quot; •}} {{nowrap|&quot;{{Icon|WikiProject}} [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Santana|WikiProject]]&quot; •}}''' }} &lt;noinclude&gt; [[Category:Santana (band)|τ]] [[Category:Jam bands templates|Santana]] [[pt:Predefinição:Santana]] [[fr:modèle:Santana]] [[ka:თარგი:სანტანა]] &lt;/noinclude&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Libertarianism&diff=394374032</id> <title>Talk:Libertarianism</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Libertarianism&diff=394374032"/> <updated>2010-11-02T13:25:23Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: /* Let's move forward */ r. - possibly! <hr /> <div>{{skiptotoctalk}} {{talkheader|search=yes}} {{tmbox | type = content | text = '''General warning regarding disruption: 1 October 2010 03:28 UTC through 1 February 2011 03:28 UTC''' –&lt;br&gt; 1. An administrator [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Libertarianism&amp;diff=387474929&amp;oldid=387474657 has fully protected this article] until February 1, 2011. Go to this {{tl|editprotected}} link to learn how to use the tag to propose any non-controversial or consensus-based changes to the article, and an admininistrator will come along and make the edit.&lt;br&gt; 2. Due to months of disruptions by discussions about the breadth of libertarian ideologies discussed in this article, the community of editors has clearly and repeatedly discussed this topic and reached a consensus position, and continuous attempts to dispute this consensus disrupt the encyclopedia. If such discussion occurs despite warnings, editors should feel free to take the matter to [[WP:ANI|Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents]] or to collapse the discussion. The purpose of this general warning is to prevent disruption, not to prevent editorial opinion. Discussions on [[WP:WEIGHT|due and undue weight]] for subtopics of the article, backed by reliable sources, are fine. After the sanction expires, editorial opinion on topic and coverage, backed up by policy and [[WP:RS|reliable sources]], will be considered as normal. }} {{ArticleHistory |maindate=June 25, 2005 |action1=RBP |action1date=19 January 2004 |action1link=Wikipedia:Refreshing_brilliant_prose_-_Others |action1result=demoted |action1oldid=2199996 |action2=PR |action2link=Wikipedia:Peer review/Libertarianism/archive1 |action2date=02:43, 20 Mar 2005 |action2result=reviewed |action2oldid=11307576 |action3=FAC |action3link=Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Libertarianism/archive1 |action3date=15:44, 11 May 2005 |action3result=promoted |action3oldid=13562942 |action4=FAR |action4link=Wikipedia:Featured_article_removal_candidates/Libertarianism |action4date=16 August 2005 |action4oldid= 21171729 |action4result=kept |action5=FAR |action5link=Wikipedia:Featured article review/Libertarianism/archive1 |action5date=14:11, 15 January 2007 |action5result=removed |action5oldid=100676048 |action6=GAN |action6link=Talk:Libertarianism#Failed_.22good_article.22_nomination |action6date=2007-10-24 |action6result=failed |action6oldid=166638868 |currentstatus=FFA }} {{WikiProjectBanners|1= {{WikiProject Sociology|class=B|importance=Mid}} {{WikiProjectPolitics|class=B|importance=High}} {{philosophy|class=B|importance=mid|social=yes}} {{WPLibertarianism|class=B|importance=top}} {{WikiProject Liberalism|class=B|importance=top}} }} {{FixBunching|beg}} {{FixBunching|mid}} {{WPCD|small=yes}} {{FixBunching|mid}} {{V0.5|class=B|category=Socsci|small=yes}} {{FixBunching|mid}} {{Archive box|auto=long| ---- *[[Talk:Libertarian]], discussion for a page which has been merged with this article. ---- *[[Talk:Libertarianism/Alfrem]], discussion prior to the [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Alfrem#Alfrem_banned_from_Libertarianism|ArbCom decision]] banning [[User:Alfrem]] from this article. ---- *[[Talk:Libertarianism/Page move]], a July 2005 vote on a proposal to make [[libertarianism]] a disambiguation page and move this to ''Libertarianism (capitalist)''. }} {{User:MiszaBot/config |archiveheader = {{aan}} |maxarchivesize = 140K |counter = 27 |minthreadsleft = 3 |algo = old(7d) |archive = Talk:Libertarianism/Archive %(counter)d }} {{FixBunching|mid}} {{Auto archiving notice |bot=MiszaBot I |age=7 |small=yes}} {{FixBunching|end}} == General warning disputed == The general warning at the top of this page states as follows: {{quotation|1. An administrator has fully protected this article until February 1, 2011. Go to this '''editprotected''' link to learn how to use the tag to propose any non-controversial or consensus-based changes to the article, and an admininistrator will come along and make the edit.&lt;br&gt; 2. Due to months of disruptions by discussions about the breadth of libertarian ideologies discussed in this article, the community of editors has clearly and repeatedly discussed this topic and reached a consensus position, and continuous attempts to dispute this consensus disrupt the encyclopedia. If such discussion occurs despite warnings, editors should feel free to take the matter to [[WP:ANI|Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents]] or to collapse the discussion. The purpose of this general warning is to prevent disruption, not to prevent editorial opinion. Discussions on [[WP:WEIGHT|due and undue weight]] for subtopics of the article, backed by reliable sources, are fine. After the sanction expires, editorial opinion on topic and coverage, backed up by policy and [[WP:RS|reliable sources]], will be considered as normal. }} Though I think until February 1 is too long of a period, I generally have no other issue with point 1.&lt;p&gt;However, I dispute much of what is said in Point 2: * ''&quot;the community of editors has clearly and repeatedly discussed this topic and reached a consensus position&quot;''... *#what exactly is this &quot;consensus position&quot;? *#Where was it established? *#I thought [[Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion|Polling is not a substitute for discussion]]. No? *#&quot;When editors cannot reach agreement by editing&quot;, isn't the &quot;process of finding a [[WP:CONSENSUS|consensus]] ... continued by discussion on the relevant talk pages?&quot; *#Can't [[WP:TALKEDABOUTIT|consensus change]]? *''The purpose of this general warning is to prevent disruption, not to prevent editorial opinion.'' **Perhaps that was the original intent, but some seem to think they have carte blanche to hide discussions about article content, including an entire discussion in which half a dozen editors were involved. Based on this, I hereby dispute point 2 of the &quot;general warning&quot; above. Unless there is adequate response/explanation to this, or consensus support for Point (2) and the way it has been interpreted is demonstrated, within, say, 48 hours, I will support anyone who deletes point 2 in the general warning. --[[User:Born2cycle|Born2cycle]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]]) 16:23, 25 October 2010 (UTC) :This was born out of the fact that a discussion on how to improve the argument was getting bogged down on a constant stream of argument over whether this page should deal with both left and right libertarianism together. I don't 100% agree with the wording of the notice, but I think it has sense. To be clear; so far discussion seems to be sensible and dispassionate about what to include and at what weight. This seems the right approach; get some ''good wording'' of some form in the damn article. Then in a few months when that is written the scope might be reasonably reassessed. Comments like the collapsed IP comments today are exactly what this notice is warning about; rehashing identical issues that have been clogging up the page for months. As it is I think there comes a point where we just have to step back and say &quot;how do we best move forward and improve the content&quot;. And for that reason, a short moratorium on disputing the broad scope of the article seems reasonable. --'''[[user:tmorton166|Errant]]'''{{small| [tmorton166] {{sup|([[User_talk:tmorton166|chat!]])}}}} 16:37, 25 October 2010 (UTC) ::The agree'd consensus was that the article discuss all Libertarianisms with appropriate weighting. It was established by demonstration to the point of nausea through the repeated presentation of reliable, high quality, academic sources indicating that a significant proportion of scholarly definitions of Libertarianism are broad or libertarian socialist specific. (These presentations, did not of course, refute the existence of the large literature of scholarly definitions that are narrowly minarchist or pro-market specific). This occurred over six months of continuous disruption. Editors are currently working on a replacement article with well developed weighting. They seem to be editing productively in this process. ::No, we can't talk about consensus change, because the '''continuous''' question begging of consensus change was the disruption problem. As such '''periodic''' questioning of consensus is preferable. The article will revisit consensus in February. This delay will allow for the preparation of higher quality discussion of consensus on the article's coverage. Please feel free to develop magnificent reliably high quality sourced persuasive arguments to present in February if you disagree with the current consensus. ::The purpose of thread hiding, rather than persuing individual editors, is to recognise the community of editors had a disruption problem; not any individual editor. Thread hiding is an excellent alternative to singling out individuals. It cuts off the discussion without apportioning blame. Thread hiding also cuts off the &quot;one last word&quot; aspect of the discussion of continual revisiting. As such thread hiding reduces the combative atmosphere of the article. ::As such I ''support point 2''. [[User:Fifelfoo|Fifelfoo]] ([[User talk:Fifelfoo|talk]]) 16:41, 25 October 2010 (UTC) ::: IMHO we set the dispute aside to see if we can solve it by general article improvement. I'd like to stick with that plan. Including nicely telling this to new folks who raise the question. (or say ''THAT'' in the template) However, that point 2 is badly worded and should go. It makes it sound like anyone who raises the question is a bad person who needs to get punished. [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 16:48, 25 October 2010 (UTC) ::*tmorton166, do you realize that the comments recently collapsed (at [[#Article_makes_too_much_of_diff_between_left.2Fright_libertarianism]]) includes the hiding of comments by over half a dozen non-IP editors (Saruman-the-white, TFOWR, CarolMooreDC, [[User:Born2cycle|yours truly]], Anotoly-Rex, Fifelfoo, North8000, Yworo, and LK), not just &quot;collapsed IP comments&quot;? Do you support that? ::*Fifelfoo, isn't &quot;the '''continuous''' question begging of consensus change&quot; ''de facto'' evidence of a lack of consensus? --[[User:Born2cycle|Born2cycle]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]]) 16:54, 25 October 2010 (UTC) :::Yes, because it was going exactly the same way as every other discussion for the last few months, and was born out of an IP deliberately dredging up the issue. Once the ball starts rolling it seems ''no-one'' on this page can resist jumping in to say something. I never made up any opinion on the scope of the article, my only opinion is that it is a pile of crud, and there seems little point spending another 6 months figuring out what to write about. Much better to do the reverse; write some really good content. Then have a rationale discussion about whether to split it up or keep it together. Since the moratorium there has been movement but '''I would really like to see some draft work emerge in the next few weeks.''' --'''[[user:tmorton166|Errant]]'''{{small| [tmorton166] {{sup|([[User_talk:tmorton166|chat!]])}}}} 17:00, 25 October 2010 (UTC) ===Evidence of consensus=== Saved this since I was sure it would come up again. Can update the (now archived) links if you don't remember the incidents and dispute them. Remember [[Wikipedia:NOTUNANIMOUS#Not_unanimity|consensus doesn't have to be unanimous]]. And let's not forget all the disruptive comments by now sanctioned editors. Why not just work on actual edits instead of behavior I'm controlling myself in not describing. *[[Talk:Libertarianism/Archive_19#RFC:_Should_this_page_discuss_only_right-libertarianism.3F| This August 27 RfC ''rejecting'' just making it about Right wing libertarianism]], *[[Talk:Libertarianism/Archive_20#RfC:_Is_this_tag_appropriate.3F|This September 3 ''successful'' RfC for removing a tag saying that the article lacked a “single coherent topic” (because it did not have the desired single POV]], *[[Talk:Libertarianism#Requested_move|This September 9 ''rejected'' Requested move to &quot;Libertarianism (word)&quot;]]. (need to update link) *[[Talk:Libertarianism#Requested_move_Forms_of.29|This September 9 ''rejected'' Requested move to &quot;Libertarianism (Forms of)&quot;]].(need to update link) *[[Talk:Libertarianism#Proposal_to_revert_to_FA_version_and_work_from_there|This ''rejected'' proposal to revert to the 2005 version which does not include material deletionists do not like]] does not go to broader community; currently 5 for and 5 against.(need to update link) Signed: [[User:Carolmooredc|CarolMooreDC]] ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|talk]]) 17:04, 25 October 2010 (UTC) : We're going back down the same hole again. Including one side trying to overstate the degree and clarity of whatever consensus was reached. I suggest we stop right here, and move on to solving this by improvement of the the article. Maybe lighten up the wording on point 2 a bit, if someone feels bold. [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 17:11, 25 October 2010 (UTC) *{{ec}}These are supposed to demonstrate consensus of what, ''exactly'', Carol? Remember, [[Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion]]. I suggest you mistitled this section, which would better be named, '''Evidence of lack of consensus for any of the initiatives proposed so far'''. ---17:17, 25 October 2010 (UTC) &lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Born2cycle|Born2cycle]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Born2cycle|contribs]]) 17:17, 25 October 2010&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt; *Consensus does not mean unanimity. It seems we have discussed all these issues and come to a consensus. [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 17:27, 25 October 2010 (UTC) :: Let's just leave this up in the air and move on. [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 17:52, 25 October 2010 (UTC) :::Carol forgot the most clear, recent, and overwhelming RfC: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Libertarianism/Archive_26#Proposal:_remove_all_references_to_any_ideology_never_referred_to_as_just_.22libertarianism.22_without_qualification_in_English_WP:RS September 30]. Ten editors opposed limiting the scope of the article (4 strongly opposed) vs. 3 editors for limiting the scope of the article (only 1 strongly). The opposed arguments were firmly based on policy while the supporting arguments were weak and/or based on weak arguments or personal opinion. In every RfC on the topic which has brought in outside opinion, the gap between the positions widens and support for a broad view gets stronger. Continuing this discussion, especially with someone who's not committed enough to WP to create an account, is '''''pointless'''''. [[User:Yworo|Yworo]] ([[User talk:Yworo|talk]]) 17:59, 25 October 2010 (UTC) ::::Even if you ignore the three supports to claim consensus, that indicates consensus only on that one particular very specific point, which, AFAIK, has not been raised since. What is the relevance of that to this discussion? --[[User:Born2cycle|Born2cycle]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]]) 18:08, 25 October 2010 (UTC) And this is why the moratorium is in place; because now we are wrapped in another thread going nowhere. I'm a bit annoyed with the direction the conversation has turned the last couple of days. I recommend you make a determined effort to focus on the drafting that was progressing nicely, if at a snails pace. Consensus is not about &quot;something everyone is happy with&quot;. It is about what seems to have the most support. And right now what definitely has the most support is writing the article. '''so can you please go back to that''' --'''[[user:tmorton166|Errant]]'''{{small| [tmorton166] {{sup|([[User_talk:tmorton166|chat!]])}}}} 18:18, 25 October 2010 (UTC) :::::Again, can we please leave this up in the air and move on? Thanks [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 18:37, 25 October 2010 (UTC) ::::::Thanks for link to the forgotten RfC. Have added to list for future reference! [[User:Carolmooredc|CarolMooreDC]] ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|talk]]) 16:31, 27 October 2010 (UTC) == Rothbard on appropriating the word &quot;libertarian&quot; from the left == ‘One gratifying aspect of our rise to some prominence is that, for the first time in my memory, we, “our side,” had captured a crucial word from the enemy... “Libertarians”... had long been simply a polite word for left-wing anarchists, that is for anti-private property anarchists, either of the communist or syndicalist variety. But now we had taken it over...’ -- Murray N. Rothbard, ''The Betrayal of the American Right'', Ludwig von Mises Institute, 2007, p. 83 That should really be mentioned, given that the right-wing &quot;libertarians&quot; get so bothered by actual libertarians using the term... &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/128.40.192.31|128.40.192.31]] ([[User talk:128.40.192.31|talk]]) 10:30, 26 October 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :The quote is available at page 83 of the electronic copy [http://mises.org/books/betrayal.pdf available here]. A full citation would be Murray N. Rothbard, ''The Betrayal of the American Right'', Thomas E. Woods Jr. (ed.) Auburn, Alabama: Ludwig von Mises Institute, 2007, p.83. Given the often PRIMARY role of partisan presses in relation to this article, I'd suggest other editors carefully determine the reliability of this source before using it. [[User:Fifelfoo|Fifelfoo]] ([[User talk:Fifelfoo|talk]]) 10:42, 26 October 2010 (UTC) :: 128's the rude wording aside, I guess that that reinforces the point that certain meanings of the word (or words sometimes used in definition discussions like &quot;left&quot;) may have changed dramatically over time. And that certain summaries lists of key tenants may have to be given a time-line context. [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 12:00, 26 October 2010 (UTC) ::: It definitely reinforces the point that Born2cycle ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Libertarianism/Archive_21#Libertarianism_.28word.29 Libertarianism (Word)] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Libertarianism/Archive_22#Requested_move Requested Move]) and I ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Libertarianism/Archive_17#Reliable_vs_Relevant_Sources Reliable vs Relevant]) brought up a while ago that this article should discuss the current meaning of the word &quot;libertarianism&quot; and not all the meanings that the word has had. :::: I hate to point this out, but anarchists still use the word &quot;libertarian&quot; to describe their ideas. They were using it in the 1950s when Rothbard and company decided to &quot;capture&quot; it. So any discussion of &quot;the current meaning&quot; needs to include the left-wing use. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: smaller;&quot; class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/128.40.192.31|128.40.192.31]] ([[User talk:128.40.192.31|talk]]) 07:58, 27 October 2010 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!-- Template:UnsignedIP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; ::: My section on the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Libertarianism/Archive_24#Scope_of_Government scope of government] offers a rough timeline of the current meaning...rather than the various meanings of the word. The philosophy of limited government has not changed significantly in the past 200+ years. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. ::: Modern liberals stole the word &quot;liberal&quot; from modern libertarians (classical liberals) so modern libertarians stole the word &quot;libertarian&quot; from classical libertarians. Modern liberals support big government, modern libertarians support limited government and classical libertarians support no government. ::: &quot;John Stuart Mill, the great and generous theorist of liberalism, and Herbert Spencer, a major exponent of laissez-faire individualism, whose writings appealed immensely to the Spanish anarchists, can be - and have been - rightly designated as 'libertarians'&quot; - Anarchist seeds beneath the snow :::Thanks 128 for providing additional evidence that we're dealing with different meanings of the word &quot;libertarianism&quot; --[[User:Xerographica|Xerographica]] ([[User talk:Xerographica|talk]]) 21:13, 26 October 2010 (UTC) ::::Beating that dead horse ''again''? The word does not have &quot;different meanings&quot;, it rather forms a [[semantic]] [[continuum]], which is precisely what this article should elaborate. [[User:Yworo|Yworo]] ([[User talk:Yworo|talk]]) 06:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC) :::::Seeing a continuum in meaning might be the interpretation of some sources, but it's not the view of Rothbard nor of many other libertarian thinkers. Definitely a semantic discontinuity implied here: {{quotation|“Libertarians,” in contrast, had long been simply a polite word for left-wing anarchists, that is for anti-private property anarchists, either of the communist or syndicalist variety. But now we had taken it over, and more properly from the view of etymology; since we were proponents of individual liberty and therefore of the individual’s right to his property.}} ::::: --[[User:Born2cycle|Born2cycle]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]]) 06:18, 27 October 2010 (UTC) ::::::Yawn. The tertiary sources sort this out by finding the elements which are common across the continuity while also showing in what way the variants differ. We should follow these tertiary sources for the logic and structure of the article, as has been previously discussed and agreed on except by one or two habitually [[WP:TEDIOUS|tendentious]] editors. Feel free to wear the shoe if it fits. [[User:Yworo|Yworo]] ([[User talk:Yworo|talk]]) 06:23, 27 October 2010 (UTC) :::::::Please stop with the personal attacks. :::::::Tertiary sources like Brittanica don't even recognize the different meaning of the term which Rothbard refers to as ''&quot;had long been simply a polite word for left-wing anarchists, that is for anti-private property anarchists&quot;''. The anti-property sense of the word is generally not recognized in generic tertiary sources like Brittanica (Boaz), Stanford (Vallentyne) and IEP (Zwolinski). See [[Talk:Libertarianism/OverviewDraft2]]. --[[User:Born2cycle|Born2cycle]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]]) 16:47, 27 October 2010 (UTC) :::::::The historical approach/emphasis to use of the word is best since involves least WP:OR, except where one or preferably more sources have a good analysis. Rothbard's words obviously relevant and should be attributed to him. While by the time many of us got to libertarianism (like me in 1979) we'd lost the old history of the left association, and it should be made clear Rothbard's views on that. But Hess's views on the evolution of the word - and seems to me there's some ref somewhere - also relevant. [[User:Carolmooredc|CarolMooreDC]] ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|talk]]) 16:50, 27 October 2010 (UTC) == Time Framework for &quot;Common Tenets&quot; Development? == This refers to work in the overviewdraft2 sub-page. Looking for just your &quot;quick gut feel&quot; answer on this. What I'm getting to is to what extent any description of common tenets would need to acknowledges changes over time, which means how much have they changed? I guess the three possibilities would be: #Very little No special provision need be made for changes over time. #Changes in just a few areas. Just adding notes about those particular changes would suffice. #Major Changes Any desctiption of common tenets must be given an era context (e.g. present day, mid 20th century, prior to the 1960 etc. ) And if you pick this one, could you suggest (an) era description(s) to include in addition to &quot;present day&quot; [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 11:35, 27 October 2010 (UTC) :First, are you talking about the History section of final article? (Let's not drift into WP:OR analysis as just mentioned above.) If so, give us examples of section titles that might help divide it up. (Also give link to the relevant page every time. I always forget where it is.) [[User:Carolmooredc|CarolMooreDC]] ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|talk]]) 16:59, 27 October 2010 (UTC) Right now it's basically using (and possibly tweaking) the structure in overviewdraft2 to arrive at common tenets which would be used to guide a draft of the overview section.[[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 00:31, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :I'd greatly prefer to avoid &quot;quick gut feel&quot; and stick to &quot;reliably sourced&quot;. If sources discuss changes over time we're golden. If they don't, we don't. &quot;Gut feel&quot; sounds far too much like &quot;[[WP:OR|our own opinions]]&quot;, which isn't a sound route for articles to take. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 00:36, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :: This was only to decide whether the &quot;common tenets&quot; section in the worksheet needs to be split into eras, not to create content. [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 12:06, 28 October 2010 (UTC) :::I appreciate that, but I still believe it's a bad idea. [[/OverviewDraft2]] should be referenced just as much as the article itself or we stray into OR territory. Our own views, our own opinions, should not be a factor either in the article or in the development of the article. We're editors, not researchers or academics. There are plenty of fora on the Internet where we can debate stuff like this, but here we should focus on the article and on the development of the article, and we should do that by following reliable sources, not by undertaking our own research. The purpose of the draft is to look at high-level, tertiary sources and apply weighting based on occurrences in those sources - not to detail our own views and then try and find secondary (or even primary) sources that fit with our own opinions. That seems to have been a recurring problem with this article in the past, and it's something that I'd really like to move away from so that we focus on editing and not research. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 12:21, 28 October 2010 (UTC) ::::I agree with TFOWR. That's why I would provide only the briefest sectional outline OR a fully sourced draft. One of these days :-) [[User:Carolmooredc|CarolMooreDC]] ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|talk]]) 03:50, 29 October 2010 (UTC) ::::: Well, I guess that we'll let the need or non-need for an era split on the worksheet be determined by the work there. [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 10:51, 29 October 2010 (UTC) == Let's move forward == Everything has focused on the work on overviewdraft2 (including common tenets development), which I think is excellent work not only for the overview, but as a foundation for other work on the article. But work there seems to have stalled. Is anybody planning on adding more material in the next couple weeks? If not, I think that it's time to start summarizing based on what is there. [[User:North8000|North8000]] ([[User talk:North8000|talk]]) 11:42, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :I'm not sure I'd say it's stalled; {{diff2|393094814|last edit was only a week ago}}. There is still some fairly major work to do: Stanford (Vallentyne) needs to be fleshed out. Apart from that if everyone could check Britannica (Boaz), Stanford (Vallentyne) and IEP (Zwolinski) that would be good - it'll ensure we're all on &quot;the same page&quot;. But once Stanford is done I agree we could move on to sorting out weightings etc - more tertiary sources would be nice but three seems fine. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 13:25, 2 November 2010 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:82.21.207.51&diff=394368088</id> <title>User talk:82.21.207.51</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:82.21.207.51&diff=394368088"/> <updated>2010-11-02T12:40:56Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: <hr /> <div>== August 2010 == [[Image:Information.svg|25px]] Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, [[Special:Contributions/82.21.207.51|your recent edits]] to [[:Talk:The Mousetrap]] have been reverted as they could be seen to be defamatory or potentially [[Wikipedia:Libel|libellous]]. Take a look at our [[Wikipedia:Welcome|welcome page]] to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you.&lt;!-- Template:uw-defamatory1 --&gt; [[User:Cyclopia|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Cycl&lt;/font&gt;&lt;big&gt;o&lt;/big&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;pia&lt;/font&gt;]][[User talk:Cyclopia|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;talk&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] 09:02, 30 August 2010 (UTC) :''If this is a shared [[IP address]], and you didn't make any [[Wikipedia:vandalism|unconstructive]] edits, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself so you can avoid further irrelevant warnings.'' ==Welcome!== Hello, {{PAGENAME}}, and [[Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers|welcome]] to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: *[[Wikipedia:Five pillars|The five pillars of Wikipedia]] *[[Wikipedia:How to edit a page|How to edit a page]] *[[Help:Contents|Help pages]] *[[Wikipedia:Tutorial|Tutorial]] *[[Wikipedia:How to write a great article|How to write a great article]] *[[Wikipedia:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] I hope you enjoy editing here and being a [[Wikipedia:Wikipedians|Wikipedian]]! Please [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|sign your name]] on talk pages using four tildes (&lt;nowiki&gt;~~~~&lt;/nowiki&gt;); this will automatically produce your username and the date. If you need help, check out [[Wikipedia:Questions]], ask me on my talk page, or place &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{helpme}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. You appear to be interested in '''&quot;British Isles&quot;-related topics'''. This is a controversial area on Wikipedia, and unfortunately the [[Wikipedia:Wikipedians|community]] has had to implement [[Wikipedia:General sanctions/British Isles Probation Log|'''sanctions in this area''']]. If you see any articles where you feel that the term &quot;British Isles&quot; should be added or removed you should raise it at [[WT:BISE|'''the &quot;British Isles Specific Examples&quot; page''']]. Again, welcome!&amp;nbsp; [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 12:40, 2 November 2010 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scots_language&diff=394365562</id> <title>Scots language</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scots_language&diff=394365562"/> <updated>2010-11-02T12:19:08Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Reverted good faith edits by 93.107.193.33 (talk); See WP:IMOS: use &quot;Derry&quot; for the town, &quot;Londonderry&quot; for the county. (TW) <hr /> <div>{{Distinguish|Scottish English|Scottish Gaelic}} {{Infobox Language |name=Scots |nativename=''Scots'', ''Lallans'' |familycolor=Indo-European |states= [[Scotland]], [[Northern Ireland]], [[Republic of Ireland]] |region={{Flagicon|Scotland}} Scotland: [[Scottish Lowlands]], [[Northern Isles]], [[Caithness]].&lt;br&gt;{{Flagicon|Ulster}} Ulster: Counties [[County Down|Down]], [[County Antrim|Antrim]], [[County Londonderry|Londonderry]], [[County Donegal|Donegal]]. |speakers=est. 200,000 &lt;small&gt;([http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=GB ethnologue])&lt;/small&gt; to over 1.5 million &lt;small&gt;([[General Register Office for Scotland]], 1996)&lt;/small&gt; |fam2=[[Germanic languages|Germanic]] |fam3=[[West Germanic languages|West Germanic]] |fam4=[[Anglo-Frisian languages|Anglo-Frisian]] |nation=None.&lt;br /&gt;— Classified as a ''&quot;traditional language&quot;'' by the [[Scottish Government]].&lt;br /&gt;— Classified as a ''&quot;regional or minority language&quot;'' under the [[European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages]], ratified by the [[United Kingdom]] in 2001.&lt;br /&gt;— Classified as a ''&quot;traditional language&quot;'' by [[The North/South Language Body]]. |agency=— Scotland: None, &lt;small&gt;although the [[Dictionary of the Scots Language]] carries great authority (the Scottish Government's ''Partnership for a Better Scotland'' coalition agreement (2003) promises &quot;support&quot;)&lt;/small&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;— Ireland: None, &lt;small&gt;although the cross-border [[Ulster-Scots Agency]], established by the Implementation Agreement following the [[Good Friday Agreement]] promotes usage.&lt;/small&gt; |iso2=sco|iso3=sco}}{{Scots language}} '''Scots''' is the [[Germanic languages|Germanic]] [[Natural language|language]] [[Variety (linguistics)|variety]] traditionally spoken in [[Scottish Lowlands|Lowland]] [[Scotland]] and parts of [[Ulster]]. It is sometimes called '''Lowland Scots''' to distinguish it from [[Scottish Gaelic]], the [[Celtic language]] variety spoken in most of the western [[Scottish Highlands|Highlands]] and in the [[Hebrides]]. Since there are no universally accepted criteria for distinguishing [[language]]s from [[dialect]]s, scholars and other interested parties often disagree about the linguistic, historical and social status of Scots.&lt;ref name=&quot;English Language 1992. p.894&quot;&gt;[[A.J. Aitken]] in ''The Oxford Companion to the English Language'', Oxford University Press 1992. p.894&lt;/ref&gt; Although a number of paradigms for distinguishing between languages and dialects do exist, these often render contradictory results. Focused broad Scots is at one end of a bipolar linguistic continuum, with [[Scottish English|Scottish Standard English]] at the other.&lt;ref&gt;Stuart-Smith J. ''Scottish English: Phonology'' in Varieties of English: The British Isles, Kortman &amp; Upton (Eds), Mouton de Gruyter, New York 2008. p.47&lt;/ref&gt; Consequently, Scots is often regarded as one of the ancient varieties of [[English language|English]], but with its own distinct dialects.&lt;ref name=&quot;English Language 1992. p.894&quot;/&gt; Alternatively Scots is sometimes treated as a distinct [[Germanic language]], in the way [[Norwegian language|Norwegian]] is closely linked to, yet distinct from, [[Danish language|Danish]].&lt;ref name=&quot;English Language 1992. p.894&quot;/&gt; After the [[Acts of Union 1707|union of Scotland and England]] (1707), the use of Standard English was encouraged and the use of Scots discouraged. Owing to the widespread use of Standard English in the media, some Scots now believe they are merely using slang, rather than Scots. ==Nomenclature== Native speakers sometimes refer to their [[vernacular]] as '''''braid Scots''''' (or &quot;broad Scots&quot; in English)&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/getent4.php?query=braid+scots&amp;sset=1&amp;fset=20&amp;printset=20&amp;searchtype=full&amp;dregion=entry&amp;dtext=both SND:Scots]&lt;/ref&gt; or use a dialect name such as the &quot;[[Mid Northern Scots|Doric]]&quot;,&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/getent4.php?query=doric&amp;sset=1&amp;fset=20&amp;printset=20&amp;searchtype=full&amp;dregion=entry&amp;dtext=both SND:Doric]&lt;/ref&gt; &quot;[[South Scots|Teri]]&quot;&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.scottishcorpus.ac.uk/corpus/search/document.php?documentid=1430 Scottish Corpus of Texts and Speech]&lt;/ref&gt; or the &quot;Buchan Claik&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;Peter Buchan, David Toulmin, ''Buchan Claik: A Compendium of Words and Phrases from the North-east of Scotland'', Steve Savage Publishers Limited&lt;/ref&gt; The old-fashioned ''[[Scotch (adjective)|Scotch]]'', an English loan,&lt;ref&gt;[[A.J. Aitken]] in ''The Oxford Companion to the English Language'', Oxford University Press 1992. p.892&lt;/ref&gt; occurs occasionally. The term '''''Lallans''''', a variant of the [[Modern Scots]] word ''lawlands'' {{IPA2|ˈlo̜ːlən(d)z, ˈlɑːlənz|}},&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/getent4.php?query=lawland&amp;sset=1&amp;fset=20&amp;printset=20&amp;searchtype=full&amp;dregion=form&amp;dtext=both SND: Lawland]&lt;/ref&gt; is also used (though this is more often taken to mean the [[Lallans]] [[Literary language|literary form]]&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=sco Ethnologue]&lt;/ref&gt;). Scots in Ireland is known in official circles as &quot;[[Ulster Scots]]&quot; or &quot;Ullans&quot;, a recent [[neologism]] merging &quot;Ulster&quot; and &quot;Lallans&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;Tymoczko M. &amp; Ireland C.A. (2003) Language and Tradition in Ireland: Continuities and Displacements, Univ of Massachusetts Press. p.159&lt;/ref&gt; ===Etymology=== ''Scots'' is a contraction of ''Scottis'', the [[Early Scots|Older Scots]]&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/getent4.php?plen=46309&amp;startset=34713072&amp;query=SCOTS&amp;fhit=Scots&amp;dregion=form&amp;dtext=snd#fhit SND: Scots]&lt;/ref&gt; and northern version of late [[Old English]] ''Scottisc'' (modern English &quot;Scottish&quot;), which replaced the earlier [[Germanic umlaut|i-mutated]] version ''Scyttisc''.&lt;ref&gt;[dictionary.oed.com OED online], Scots, a. (n.)&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;OED online, Scottish, a. and n.&lt;/ref&gt; Prior to the 15th century English speech in Scotland was known as &quot;English&quot; (written ''Ynglis'' or ''Inglis'' at the time). Prior to the 15th century the term &quot;Scottish&quot; (''Scottis'') referred instead to [[Gaelic (language)|Gaelic]]. By the beginning of the 15th century, the English of Scotland had arguably become a distinct language, albeit lacking a name which clearly distinguished it from the English of southern Britain. From 1495 the term ''Scottis'' was increasingly used to refer to the Lowland vernacular&lt;ref name=&quot;English Language 1992. p.894&quot;/&gt; and ''Erse'', meaning [[Irish (language)|Irish]], as a name for Gaelic. For example, towards the end of the 15th century [[William Dunbar]] was using ''Erse'' to refer to Gaelic and in the early 16th century [[Gavin Douglas]] was using ''Scottis'' as a name for the Lowland vernacular.&lt;ref&gt;''The Stewart Kingdom of Scotland 1371 - 1603'', Caroline Bingham, 1974&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;''Companion to the Oxford English Dictionary'', Tom McArthur, Oxford University Press, 1994&lt;/ref&gt; The term ''Erse'' is usually considered pejorative,{{Citation needed|date=October 2010}} and the Gaelic of Scotland is now usually called [[Scottish Gaelic]]. ==History== {{Main|History of the Scots language}} [[Image:LufeGodAbufeAlAndYiNychtbourAsYiSelf JohnKnoxHouse200411 CopyrightKaihsuTai.jpg|thumb|right|''Lufe God abufe al and yi nychtbour as yi self'' (''Love God above all and thy neighbour as thyself'') an example of [[Early Scots]] on [[John Knox House]], [[Edinburgh]]]] [[Northumbrian (Anglo-Saxon)|Northumbrian]] [[Old English]] had been established in southeastern Scotland as far as the [[River Forth]] by the seventh century.&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/SCOTSHIST/list.html A History of Scots to 1700], [[Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue|DOST]] Vol. 12 p. xxxvi&lt;/ref&gt; It remained largely confined to this area until the thirteenth century, continuing in common use while [[Middle Irish|Gaelic]] was the language of the [[List of Scottish monarchs|Scottish court]]. The succeeding variety of Early northern [[Middle English]] spoken in southeastern Scotland, also known as [[Early Scots]], began to diverge from that of [[Northumbria]] due to twelfth and thirteenth century immigration of [[Old Norse language|Scandinavian-influenced]] Middle English-speakers from the North and Midlands of England.&lt;ref&gt;A History of Scots to 1700, DOST Vol. 12 p. xliii&lt;/ref&gt; Later influences on the development of Scots were from [[Romance language]]s via ecclesiastical and legal [[Latin]], [[Norman language|Norman]]&lt;ref&gt;A History of Scots to 1700, pp. lxiii-lxv&lt;/ref&gt; and later Parisian [[French language|French]] due to the [[Auld Alliance]] as well as [[Dutch language|Dutch]] and [[Middle Low German]] influences due to trade and immigration from the low countries.&lt;ref&gt;A History of Scots to 1700, pp. lxiii&lt;/ref&gt; Scots also includes loan words resulting from contact with Gaelic. Early medieval legal documents include a body of [[Middle Irish|Gaelic]] legal and administrative loans.&lt;ref&gt;A History of Scots to 1700, pp. lxi&lt;/ref&gt; Contemporary [[Scottish Gaelic|Gaelic]] loans are mainly for geographical and cultural features, such as ''[[ceilidh]]'', ''[[loch]]'' and ''[[Scottish Clan|clan]]''. From the thirteenth century Early Scots spread further into Scotland via the [[burgh]]s, proto-urban institutions which were first established by King [[David I of Scotland|David I]]. The growth in prestige of Early Scots in the fourteenth century, and the complementary decline of French in Scotland, made Scots the [[Prestige dialect|prestige language]] of most of eastern Scotland. By the sixteenth century [[Middle Scots]] had established orthographic and literary norms largely independent of those developing in England.&lt;ref&gt;&quot;A Brief History of Scots&quot; in Corbett, John; McClure, Derrick; Stuart-Smith, Jane (Editors)(2003) ''The Edinburgh Companion to Scots''. Edinburgh, Edinburgh University Press. ISBN 0-7486-1596-2. pp. 9ff&lt;/ref&gt; From 1610 to the 1690s during the [[Plantation of Ulster]] large numbers of Scots-speaking Lowlanders, some 200,000, settled there.&lt;ref name=&quot;Montgomery &amp; Gregg 1997: 572&quot;&gt;Montgomery &amp; Gregg 1997: 572&lt;/ref&gt; In the core areas of Scots settlement, Scots outnumbered English settlers by five or six to one.&lt;ref&gt;Adams 1977: 57&lt;/ref&gt; [[Modern Scots]] is used to describe the language after 1700 when southern [[Modern English]] was generally adopted as the literary language though Scots remained the vernacular. ==Status==&lt;!-- This section is linked from [[Scots language]] --&gt; Before the [[Treaty of Union 1707]], when Scotland and England joined to form the [[Kingdom of Great Britain]], there is ample evidence that Scots was widely held to be an independent [[sister language]]&lt;ref&gt;''[http://www.scots-online.org/airticles/eurlang.htm Nostra Vulgari Lingua: Scots as a European Language 1500 - 1700]'' By Dr. Dauvit Horsbroch&lt;/ref&gt; forming a [[pluricentric language|pluricentric]] [[diasystem]] with English. The linguist [[Heinz Kloss]] considered Modern Scots a ''Halbsprache'' (half language) in terms of a ''[[Ausbausprache - Abstandsprache - Dachsprache]]'' framework&lt;ref&gt;Kloss, Heinz, ²1968, ''Die Entwicklung neuer germanischer Kultursprachen seit 1800'', Düsseldorf: Bagel. pp.70, 79&lt;/ref&gt; although today, in Scotland, most people's speech is somewhere on a continuum ranging from traditional broad Scots to [[Scottish English|Scottish Standard English]]. Many speakers are either [[Diglossia|diglossic]] and/or able to [[Code-switching|code-switch]] along the continuum depending on the situation in which they find themselves. Where on this continuum English-influenced Scots becomes Scots-influenced English is difficult to determine. Since standard English now generally has the role of a ''Dachsprache'', disputes often arise as to whether or not the varieties of Scots are dialects of Scottish English or constitute a separate language in their own right. The UK government now accepts Scots as a [[regional language]] and has recognised it as such under the [[European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages]]. {{cquote|Notwithstanding the UK government’s and the Scottish Executive’s obligations under part II of the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, the Scottish Executive recognises and respects Scots (in all its forms) as a distinct language, and does not consider the use of Scots to be an indication of poor competence in English.&lt;ref&gt;''Second Report submitted by the United Kingdom pursuant to article 25, paragraph 1 of the framework convention for the protection of national minorities'' Available here [http://www.coe.int/t/e/human_rights/minorities/2._framework_convention_%28monitoring%29/2._monitoring_mechanism/3._state_reports_and_unmik_kosovo_report/2._second_cycle/PDF_2nd_SR_UK_en.pdf]&lt;/ref&gt;}} Evidence for its existence as a separate language lies in the extensive body of Scots literature, its independent — if somewhat fluid — [[Orthography|orthographic conventions]] and in its former use as the language of the original [[Parliament of Scotland]].&lt;ref&gt;See for example [http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?ActiveTextDocId=1519008 Confession of Faith Ratification Act 1560], written in Scots and still part of British Law&lt;/ref&gt; Since Scotland retained distinct political, legal and religious systems after the Union, many Scots terms passed into Scottish English. For instance, [[libel and slander]], separate in [[English law]], are bundled together as ''defamation'' in [[Scots law]]. ===Language shift=== From the mid sixteenth century written Scots was increasingly influenced by the [[Standard English]] of England due to developments in royal and political interactions with England.&lt;ref&gt;&quot;A Brief History of Scots'' in Corbett, John; McClure, Derrick; Stuart-Smith, Jane (Editors)(2003) ''The ''Edinburgh Companion to Scots''. Edinburgh, Edinburgh University Press. ISBN 0-7486-1596-2. pp. 10ff&lt;/ref&gt; When an [[William Flower (officer of arms)|English herald]] spoke to [[Mary of Guise]] and her councillors in 1560, at first they spoke in the &quot;Scottish tongue&quot; but because he could not understand they continued in French.&lt;ref&gt;''Calendar State Papers Scotland'', vol. 1 (1898), 322.&lt;/ref&gt; With the increasing influence and availability of books printed in England, most writing in Scotland came to be done in the English fashion.&lt;ref name=&quot;Scots' 2003 p. 11&quot;&gt;&quot;A Brief History of Scots'' in Corbett, John; McClure, Derrick; Stuart-Smith, Jane (Editors)(2003) ''The ''Edinburgh Companion to Scots''. Edinburgh, Edinburgh University Press. ISBN 0-7486-1596-2. p. 11&lt;/ref&gt; In 1603 King James VI of Scotland became King [[James I of England]]. The Protestant reformation in Scotland adopted the 1611 [[Authorized King James Version]] of the Bible and the [[Acts of Union 1707]] which led to England joining Scotland to form the United [[Kingdom of Great Britain]], having a single Parliament of Great Britain based in [[London]]. After the Union and the shift of political power to England, the use of Scots was discouraged by many in authority and education, as was the notion of Scottishness itself.&lt;ref&gt;Jones, Charles (1995) ''A Language Suppressed: The Pronunciation of the Scots Language in the 18th Century'', Edinburgh, John Donald, p.vii&lt;/ref&gt; Many leading Scots of the period, such as [[David Hume]], considered themselves Northern British rather than Scottish.&lt;ref&gt;Jones, Charles (1995) ''A Language Suppressed: The Pronunciation of the Scots Language in the 18th Century'', Edinburgh, John Donald, p.2&lt;/ref&gt; They attempted to rid themselves of their Scots in a bid to establish standard English as the official language of the newly formed Union. Nevertheless Scots was still spoken across a wide range of domains until the end of the seventeenth century,&lt;ref name=&quot;Scots' 2003 p. 11&quot;/&gt; illustrated for example, in the summary by F. Pottle, [[James Boswell]]'s twentieth century biographer, concerning James' view of the speech habits of his father [[Alexander Boswell (judge)|Alexander Boswell]], a [[judge]] of the [[supreme court]]s of [[Scotland]] : &lt;blockquote&gt;He scorned modern literature, spoke broad Scots from the bench, and even in writing took no pains to avoid the Scotticisms which most of his colleagues were coming to regard as vulgar.&lt;/blockquote&gt; Others did however scorn Scots, such as intellectuals from the [[Scottish Enlightenment]] like [[David Hume]] and [[Adam Smith]], who went to great lengths to get rid of every Scotticism from their writings.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.scuilwab.org.uk/14PlusNew/TheHistoryOScots.pdf|title=Scuilwab|format=PDF}}&lt;/ref&gt; Following such examples, many well-off Scots took to learning English through the activities of those such as [[Thomas Sheridan]], who in 1761 gave a series of lectures on English [[elocution]]. Charging a [[Guinea (British coin)|guinea]] at a time (about £{{formatnum:{{inflation|UK|1.05|1761|r=-2}}}} in today's money{{inflation-fn|UK}}), they were attended by over 300 men, and he was made a [[:wikt:freeman|freeman]] of the City of [[Edinburgh]]. Following this, some of the city's intellectuals formed the ''Select Society for Promoting the Reading and Speaking of the English Language in Scotland''. From such eighteenth century activities grew [[Scottish English|Scottish Standard English]].&lt;ref&gt;&quot;A Brief History of Scots'' in Corbett, John; McClure, Derrick; Stuart-Smith, Jane (Editors)(2003) ''The ''Edinburgh Companion to Scots''. Edinburgh, Edinburgh University Press. ISBN 0-7486-1596-2. p. 13&lt;/ref&gt; Scots remained the vernacular of many rural communities and the growing number of urban working class Scots.&lt;ref&gt;&quot;A Brief History of Scots'' in Corbett, John; McClure, Derrick; Stuart-Smith, Jane (Editors)(2003) ''The ''Edinburgh Companion to Scots''. Edinburgh, Edinburgh University Press. ISBN 0-7486-1596-2. p. 14&lt;/ref&gt; In the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries the use of Scots as a [[literary language]] was revived by several prominent Scotsmen such as [[Robert Burns]]. Such writers establishing a new cross-dialect standard literary norm. During the first half of the twentieth century, knowledge of eighteenth and nineteenth century literary norms waned and currently there is no institutionalised standard literary form.&lt;ref&gt;Eagle, Andy (2006) ''Aw Ae Wey - Written Scots in Scotland and Ulster''. Available at http://www.scots-online.org/airticles/AwAeWey.pdf &lt;/ref&gt; By the 1940s the Scottish Education Department's [[language policy]] was that Scots had no value ''&quot;...it is not the language of 'educated' people anywhere, and could not be described as a suitable medium of education or culture&quot;''.&lt;ref&gt;Primary education: a report of the Advisory Council on Education in Scotland, Scottish Education Deptartment 1946, p. 75&lt;/ref&gt; Students, of course, reverted to Scots outside the classroom, but the reversion was not complete. What occurred, and has been occurring ever since, is a process of [[language attrition]], whereby successive generations have adopted more and more features from Standard English. This process has accelerated rapidly since widespread access to [[mass media]] in English, and increased population mobility, became available after the [[Second World War]].&lt;ref&gt;&quot;A Brief History of Scots'' in Corbett, John; McClure, Derrick; Stuart-Smith, Jane (Editors)(2003) ''The ''Edinburgh Companion to Scots''. Edinburgh, Edinburgh University Press. ISBN 0-7486-1596-2. p. 15&lt;/ref&gt; It has recently taken on the nature of wholesale [[language shift]], sometimes also termed language [[Language change|change]], [[Language convergence|convergence]] or [[Language merger|merger]]. By the end of the twentieth century Scots was at an advanced stage of [[language death]] over much of Lowland Scotland.&lt;ref&gt;Macafee C. &quot;Studying Scots Vocabulary'' in Corbett, John; McClure, Derrick; Stuart-Smith, Jane (Editors)(2003) ''The ''Edinburgh Companion to Scots''. Edinburgh, Edinburgh University Press. ISBN 0-7486-1596-2. p. 51&lt;/ref&gt; Residual features of Scots are often regarded as [[slang]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |title=The Edinburgh history of the Scots language |last=Jones |first=Charles |year=1997 |publisher=[[Edinburgh University Press]] |location=[[Edinburgh]] |isbn=0748607544 9780748607549 |page=518 |url=http://books.google.com/?id=0ldowI6VgeMC&amp;pg=PA518&amp;lpg=PA518&amp;dq=%22scots+language%22+slang#v=onepage&amp;q=%22scots%20language%22%20slang&amp;f=false |accessdate=2010-08-09 |quote=Menzies (1991:42) also found that in her sample of forty secondary-school children from Easterhouse in Glasgow, there was a tendancy&lt;!--ERR IN ORIGINAL?--&gt; to describe Scots words as 'slang' alongside the use of the term 'Scots'}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Language revitalisation=== Recently, attitudes have somewhat changed, although no education takes place through the [[Medium of instruction|medium]] of Scots. Scots may be covered superficially in English lessons, which usually entails reading some Scots literature and observing the local dialect. Much of the material used is often Standard English disguised as Scots, which has upset proponents of Standard English and proponents of Scots alike.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://news.scotsman.com/opinion/Exposed-to-ridicule.2501212.jp|title=Exposed to ridicule|publisher=The Scotsman|date=7 February 2004|accessdate=2009-05-21}}&lt;/ref&gt; One example of the educational establishment's approach to Scots is ''&quot;Write a poem in Scots. (It is important not to be worried about spelling in this – write as you hear the sounds in your head.)&quot;'',&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.ltscotland.org.uk/5to14/specialfocus/scots/ideas/index.asp |title='&amp;#39;Scots - Teaching approaches'&amp;#39; Learning and Teaching Scotland Online Service |publisher=Ltscotland.org.uk |date=2005-11-03 |accessdate=2009-05-21}}&lt;/ref&gt; whereas guidelines for English require teaching pupils to be ''&quot;writing fluently and legibly with accurate spelling and punctuation.&quot;''&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.ltscotland.org.uk/5to14/htmlunrevisedguidelines/Pages/englang/main/elng1003.htm |title='&amp;#39;National Guidelines 5-14: ENGLISH LANGUAGE'&amp;#39; Learning and Teaching Scotland Online Service |publisher=Ltscotland.org.uk |date= |accessdate=2009-05-21}}&lt;/ref&gt; Scots can also be studied at university level. The use of Scots in the media is scant and is usually reserved for niches where local dialect is deemed acceptable, e.g. comedy, [[Burns supper|Burns Night]], or representations of traditions and times gone by. Serious use for news, encyclopaedias, documentaries, etc. rarely occurs in Scots, although the [[Scottish Parliament]] website offers some information in it. ==Number of speakers== [[Image:ScotsLanguageMap.png|thumb|300px|Areas where the Scots language was spoken in the twentieth century.&lt;ref&gt;Grant, William (1931) [http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/INTRO/map.php?num=2 Scottish National Dictionary]&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;Gregg R.J. (1972) ''The Scotch-Irish Dialect Boundaries'' in Ulster in Wakelin M.F., Patterns in the Folk Speech of The British Isles, London&lt;/ref&gt;]] It has been difficult to determine the number of speakers of Scots via census, because many respondents might interpret the question &quot;Do you speak Scots?&quot; in different ways. Campaigners for Scots pressed for this question to be included in the [[United Kingdom Census 2001|2001 U.K. National Census]]. The results from a 1996 trial before the Census, by the [[General Register Office for Scotland]],&lt;ref&gt;[Iain Máté] (1996) Scots Language. A Report on the Scots Language Research carried out by the General Register Office for Scotland in 1996, Edinburgh: General Register Office (Scotland).&lt;/ref&gt; suggested that there were around 1.5 million speakers of Scots, with 30% of Scots responding &quot;Yes&quot; to the question &quot;Can you speak the Scots language?&quot;, but only 17% responding &quot;Aye&quot; to the question &quot;Can you speak Scots?&quot;. (It was also found that older, working-class people were more likely to answer in the affirmative.) The [[University of Aberdeen]] Scots Leid Quorum performed its own research in 1995, suggesting that there were 2.7 million speakers. The GRO questions, as freely acknowledged by those who set them, were not as detailed and as systematic as the [[Aberdeen University]] ones, and only included reared speakers, not those who had learned the language. Part of the difference resulted from the central question posed by surveys: &quot;Do you speak Scots?&quot;. In the Aberdeen University study, the question was augmented with the further clause &quot;… or a dialect of Scots such as Border etc&quot;, which resulted in greater recognition from respondents. The GRO concluded that there simply wasn't enough linguistic self-awareness amongst the Scottish populace, with people still thinking of themselves as speaking badly pronounced, grammatically inferior English rather than Scots, for an accurate census to be taken. The GRO research concluded that &quot;[a] more precise estimate of genuine Scots language ability would require a more in-depth interview survey and may involve asking various questions about the language used in different situations. Such an approach would be inappropriate for a [[Census]].&quot; Thus, although it was acknowledged that the &quot;inclusion of such a Census question would undoubtedly raise the profile of Scots&quot;, no question about Scots was, in the end, included in the 2001 Census.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal|title=The Scots Language in education in Scotland|publisher=Mercator-Education|issn=1570-1239|format=PDF|year=2002|url=http://www1.fa.knaw.nl./mercator/regionale_dossiers/PDFs/scots_in_scotland.PDF}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|title=Scottish Education|author=T. G. K. Bryce and Walter M. Humes|pages=263&amp;ndash;264|publisher=Edinburgh University Press|year=2003|isbn=074861625X|isbn13=9780748616251}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=Stuart-Smith&gt;{{cite book|title=A Handbook of Varieties of English|editor=Bernd Kortmann and Edgar W. Schneider|pages=48&amp;ndash;49|publisher=Walter de Gruyter|year=2004|isbn=3110175320|isbn13=9783110175325|chapter=Scottish English: phonology|author=Jane Stuart-Smith}}&lt;/ref&gt; The Scottish Government's ''Pupils in Scotland Census 2008''&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2009/04/01090908/20]&lt;/ref&gt; found that 306 pupils spoke Scots as their main home language. The Scottish Government's plan on introducing the main home language back into the country has been aimed at more of the younger generation than the elder generation; although introducing the language has only been re-introduce into Scotland for a short period of time, only allowing to migrate into the younger generation as they are more likely to pick up the language more easily than any other age bracket. Re-introduction of language curriculum was sparked of by one the Scottish government's party subleaders, Thomas Baillie. [source needed] ==Literature== {{Main|Scottish literature}} Among the earliest Scots literature is [[John Barbour (poet)|John Barbour's]] ''Brus'' (fourteenth century), [[Wyntoun]]'s ''Cronykil'' and [[Blind Harry]]'s ''Wallace'' (fifteenth century). From the fifteenth century, much literature based on the Royal Court in Edinburgh and the [[University of St Andrews]] was produced by writers such as [[Robert Henryson]], [[William Dunbar]], [[Gavin Douglas]] and [[David Lyndsay]]. ''[[The Complaynt of Scotland]]'' was an early printed work in Scots. The ''[[Eneados]]'' is a [[Middle Scots]] translation of [[Virgil]]'s ''[[Aeneid]]'', completed by Gavin Douglas in 1513. After the seventeenth century, anglicisation increased. At the time, many of the oral ballads from the [[Border ballads|borders]] and the North East were written down. Writers of the period were [[Robert Sempill]], [[Robert Sempill the younger]], [[Francis Sempill]], Lady Wardlaw and Lady [[Grizel Baillie]]. In the eighteenth century, writers such as [[Allan Ramsay (poet)|Allan Ramsay]], [[Robert Burns]], [[Robert Fergusson]] and [[Walter Scott]] continued to use Scots. Scott introduced vernacular dialogue to his novels. Other well-known authors like [[Robert Louis Stevenson]], William Alexander, [[George MacDonald]], [[J. M. Barrie]] and other members of the [[Kailyard school]] like [[Ian Maclaren]] also wrote in Scots or used it in dialogue. In the [[Victorian era]] popular Scottish newspapers regularly included articles and commentary in the vernacular, often of unprecedented proportions.&lt;ref&gt;William Donaldson, ''The Language of the People: Scots Prose from the Victorian Revival'', Aberdeen University Press 1989.&lt;/ref&gt; In the early twentieth century, a [[Scottish Renaissance|renaissance]] in the use of Scots occurred, its most vocal figure being [[Hugh MacDiarmid]] whose benchmark poem [[A Drunk Man Looks at the Thistle]] (1926) did much to demonstrate the power of Scots as a modern idiom. Other contemporaries were [[Douglas Young]], [[John Buchan, 1st Baron Tweedsmuir|John Buchan]], [[Sidney Goodsir Smith]], [[Robert Garioch]] and [[Robert McLellan]]. The revival extended to verse and other literature. In 1955 three [[Ayrshire]] men, 'Sandy' MacMillan, an English teacher at [[Ayr Academy]], Thomas Limond, noted town Chamberlain of [[Ayr]], and A.L. (Ross) Taylor, Rector of [[Cumnock Academy]] collaborated to write ''Bairnsangs'' (Child Songs),&lt;ref&gt;Bairnsangs ISBN 9780907526117&lt;/ref&gt; a collection of children's [[nursery rhyme]]s and poems in Scots. The book contains a five page glossary of contemporary Scots words and their pronunciations. [[Alexander Gray (poet)|Alexander Gray]]'s translations into Scots constitute the greater part of his work, and is the main basis for his reputation. In 1983 [[William Laughton Lorimer]]'s translation of the [[New Testament]] from the original Greek was published. Highly anglicised Scots is sometimes used in contemporary fiction, for example, the Edinburgh dialect of Scots in ''[[Trainspotting (novel)|Trainspotting]]'' by [[Irvine Welsh]] (later made into a motion picture of the same name). ''[[But'n'Ben A-Go-Go]]'' by [[Matthew Fitt]] is a [[cyberpunk]] novel written entirely in what [http://www.scots-online.org/grammar Wir Ain Leid] (Our Own Language) calls &quot;General Scots&quot;. Like all cyberpunk work, it contains imaginative [[neologism]]s. The ''[[Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam]]'' has been translated into Scots by Rab Wilson (published in 2004). Alexander Hutchison has translated the poetry of [[Catullus]] into Scots, and in the 1980s, [[Liz Lochhead]] produced a Scots translation of ''[[Tartuffe]]'' by [[Molière]]. [[J. K. Annand]] translated poetry and fiction from German and medieval Latin into Scots. The strip cartoons ''[[Oor Wullie]]'' and ''[[The Broons]]'' in the ''[[Sunday Post]]'' use some Scots. ==Orthography== The [[orthography]] of [[Older Scots]] had become more or less standardised&lt;ref&gt;Agutter, Alex (1987) “A taxonomy of Older Scots orthography” in Caroline Macafee and Iseabail Macleod eds. The Nuttis Schell: Essays on the Scots Language Pesented to A. J. Aitken, Aberdeen University Press, p. 75.&lt;/ref&gt; by the middle to late sixteenth century.&lt;ref&gt;Millar, Robert McColl (2005) Language, Nation and Power An Introduction, Palgrave Macmillan, Basingstoke. pp. 90-91&lt;/ref&gt; After the [[Union of the Crowns]] in 1603 the [[Standard English]] of England came to have an increasing influence on the spelling of Scots&lt;ref&gt;Wilson, James (1926) The Dialects of Central Scotland, Oxford University Press. p.194&lt;/ref&gt; through the increasing influence and availability of books printed in England. After the [[Acts of Union 1707|Acts of Union]] in 1707 the emerging [[Scottish English|Scottish form of Standard English]] replaced Scots for most formal writing in Scotland.&lt;ref name=&quot;Scots' 2003 p. 11&quot;&gt;&quot;A Brief History of Scots'' in Corbett, John; McClure, Derrick; Stuart-Smith, Jane (Editors)(2003) ''The ''Edinburgh Companion to Scots'', Edinburgh, Edinburgh University Press. ISBN 0-7486-1596-2. p. 11&lt;/ref&gt; The eighteenth-century Scots revival saw the introduction of a new [[literary language]] descended from the old court Scots, but with an orthography that had abandoned some of the more distinctive old Scots spellings&lt;ref&gt;Tulloch, Graham (1980) The Language of Walter Scott. A Study of his Scottish and Period Language, London: Deutsch. p. 249&lt;/ref&gt; and adopted many standard English spellings. Despite the updated spelling, however, the rhymes make it clear that a Scots pronunciation was intended.&lt;ref name=&quot;David D. Murison 1976&quot;&gt;William Grant and David D. Murison (eds) The ''Scottish National Dictionary'' (SND) (1929–1976), The Scottish National Dictionary Association, vol. I Edinburgh, p.xv&lt;/ref&gt; These writings also introduced what came to be known as the [[apologetic apostrophe]],&lt;ref&gt;William Grant and David D. Murison (eds) The ''Scottish National Dictionary'' (SND) (1929–1976), The Scottish National Dictionary Association, vol. I Edinburgh, p.xiv&lt;/ref&gt; generally occurring where a [[consonant]] exists in the Standard English [[cognate]]. This Written Scots drew not only on the vernacular but also on the [[Authorized King James Version|King James Bible]] and was also heavily influenced by the norms an conventions of [[Augustan literature|Augustan English poetry]].&lt;ref&gt;J.D. McClure in ''The Oxford Companion to the English Language'', Oxford University Press 1992. p.168&lt;/ref&gt; Consequently this written Scots looked very similar to contemporary Standard English, suggesting a somewhat modified version of that, rather than a distinct speech form with a phonological system which had been developing independently for many centuries.&lt;ref&gt;McClure, J. Derrick (1985) “The debate on Scots orthography” in Manfred Görlach ed. Focus on: Scotland, Amsterdam: Benjamins, p. 204&lt;/ref&gt; This modern literary dialect, ‘Scots of the book’ or Standard Scots&lt;ref&gt;Mackie, Albert D. (1952) “Fergusson’s Language: Braid Scots Then and Now” in Smith, Syndney Goodsir ed. Robert Fergusson 1750–1774, Edinburgh: Nelson, p. 123-124, 129&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;Mairi Robinson (editor-in-chief), ''The Concise Scots Dictionary'', Aberdeen University Press, 1985 p.xiii&lt;/ref&gt; once again gave Scots an orthography of its own, lacking neither “authority nor author.”&lt;ref&gt;Stevenson, R.L. (1905) The Works of R.L. Stevenson Vol. 8, “Underwoods”, London: Heinemann, P. 152&lt;/ref&gt; This literary language used throughout Lowland Scotland and Ulster,&lt;ref&gt;Todd, Loreto (1989) The Language of Iish Lieature, London: MacMillan, p. 134&lt;/ref&gt; embodied by writers such as [[Allan Ramsay]], [[Robert Fergusson]], [[Robert Burns]], [[Sir Walter Scott]], [[Charles Murray]], [[David Herbison]], [[James Orr]], [[James Hogg]] and [[William Laidlaw]] among others, is well described in the 1921 Manual of Modern Scots.&lt;ref&gt;Grant, William; Dixon, James Main (1921) ''Manual of Modern Scots''. Cambridge, University Press&lt;/ref&gt; Other authors developed dialect writing, preferring to represent their own speech in a more phonological manner rather than following the pan-dialect conventions of modern literary Scots,&lt;ref name=&quot;David D. Murison 1976&quot;/&gt; especially for the northern&lt;ref&gt;McClure, J. Derrick (2002). Doric: The Dialect of North–East Scotland. Amsterdam: Benjamins, p.79&lt;/ref&gt; and insular dialects of Scots. During the twentieth century a number of proposals for spelling reform were presented. Commenting on this, John Corbett (2003: 260) writes that &quot;devising a normative orthography for Scots has been one of the greatest linguistic hobbies of the past century.&quot; Most proposals entailed regularising the use of established eighteenth and nineteenth century conventions, in particular the avoidance of the [[apologetic apostrophe]] which supposedly represented &quot;missing&quot; English letters. Such letters were never actually missing in Scots. For example, in the fourteenth century, [[John Barbour (poet)|Barbour]] spelt the Scots [[cognate]] of 'taken' as ''tane''. Since there has been no ''k'' in the word for over 700 years, representing its omission with an apostrophe seems pointless. The current spelling is usually ''taen''. Through the twentieth century, with the decline of spoken Scots and knowledge of the literary tradition, phonetic (often humorous) representations became more common. == See also == *[[Billy Kay]] *[[Dictionary of the Scots Language]] *[[Doric dialect (Scotland)]] *[[Lallans]] *[[Languages of the United Kingdom]] *[[Modern Scots]] *[[Phonological history of Scots]] *[[Report and Recommendations of the Scots Spelling Committee]] *[[Scotticism]] *[[Scottish Corpus of Texts and Speech]] *[[Scottish English]] *[[Scottish literature]] == References == {{Reflist|3}} == External links == {{commons|Scots language|Scots language}} {{wikibooks|Lowland Scots}} {{InterWiki|code=sco}} *[http://www.scots-online.org/ Scots-online] *[http://www.lallans.co.uk/ The Scots Language Society] *[http://www.scotslanguage.com/ Scots Language Centre] *[http://cf.linguistlist.org/cfdocs/new-website/LL-WorkingDirs/search/search-all-res2.cfm?res=All&amp;AppLanguageId=5462&amp;search1=search1#Papers The Linguist List], [[Eastern Michigan University]] and [[Wayne State University]] *[http://www.omniglot.com/writing/scots.htm Scots at Omniglot] *[http://www.ethnologue.org/show_language.asp?code=sco Gordon, Raymond G., Jr. (ed.), 2005. Ethnologue: Languages of the World, Fifteenth edition. Dallas, Tex.: SIL International. Online] *[http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/INTRO/intro2.php?num=00 Dictionary of the Scottish Language &amp;ndash; Phonetic Description of Scottish Language and Dialects] *[http://wordswithoutborders.org/article/scots-the-auld-an-nobill-tung/ ''Words Without Borders'' Peter Constantine: Scots: The Auld an Nobill Tung] *[http://www.ltscotland.org.uk/5to14/specialfocus/scots/index.asp Scots in Schools] *[http://dspace.nitle.org/bitstream/10090/811/1/s10intl2007kilborn.pdf Emily SJE Kilborn (2007), The Politics of Language in Europe Case Studies in Scots, Occitan, Moldovan, &amp; Serbo‐Croatian] ===Dictionaries and linguistic information=== *[http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/ The Dictionary of the Scots Language] *[http://www.scotsdictionaries.org.uk/ Scottish Language Dictionaries Ltd.] *[http://www.scots-online.org/grammar/pronunci.htm#cairt Dialect Map] *[http://www.scots-online.org/airticles/phonetics.htm SAMPA for Scots] *[http://www.stooryduster.co.uk/ Scottish words - illustrated] *[http://cf.linguistlist.org/cfdocs/new-website/LL-WorkingDirs/pubs/papers/browse-papers-action.cfm?paperid=5007 Abstract: Vowel height harmony and blocking in Buchan Scots], Mary Paster, [[University of California]], Phonology Vol. 21, Issue 3 *[http://www.scotsindependent.org/features/scots/index.htm Scots Language Recordings] ===Collections of texts=== *[http://www.scotstext.org/ ScotsteXt] - books, poems and texts in Scots *[http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/wirhoose/but/wan/index.htm A Tait Wanchancie] - a collection of texts *[http://www.scottishcorpus.ac.uk/ Scottish Corpus of Texts &amp; Speech] - [[Multimedia]] [[text corpus|corpus]] of Scots and [[Scottish English]] *[http://www.bbc.co.uk/voices/multilingual/scots.shtml BBC Voices, Scots section] - The BBC Voices Project is a major though informal look at UK language and speech {{Germanic languages}} {{Scotland topics}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Scots Language}} [[Category:Scots language| ]] [[Category:Languages of Ireland]] [[Category:Languages of Scotland]] [[Category:English languages]] [[af:Skots]] [[am:ስኮትኛ]] [[ang:Scotta Englisc sprǣc]] [[an:Idioma anglico escocés]] [[bn:স্কট্‌স ভাষা]] [[bs:Škotski jezik]] [[ca:Scots]] [[cs:Skotština]] [[cy:Sgoteg]] [[da:Skotsk]] [[de:Scots]] [[et:Šoti keel]] [[el:Σκωτική γλώσσα (Σκωτς)]] [[es:Escocés (lengua germánica)]] [[eo:Skota lingvo]] [[eu:Scotsera]] [[fo:Skotskt (mál)]] [[fr:Scots]] [[fy:Skotsk]] [[ga:An Albainis]] [[gv:Baarle Albinagh]] [[gd:A' Bheurla Ghallda]] [[gl:Lingua escocesa]] [[ko:스코트어]] [[hy:Շոտլանդերեն]] [[hr:Škotski jezik]] [[is:Skoska]] [[it:Lingua Scots]] [[he:סקוטית]] [[kw:Skots]] [[la:Lingua Scotica (Teutonica)]] [[lv:Skotu valoda]] [[lt:Škotų kalba]] [[lij:Lengua scosseise]] [[li:Sjots]] [[lmo:Scots]] [[hu:Scots nyelv]] [[mk:Шкотски јазик (германски)]] [[mr:स्कॉट्स भाषा]] [[nl:Schots (taal)]] [[nds-nl:Skots]] [[ja:スコットランド語]] [[no:Skotsk]] [[nn:Låglandsskotsk språk]] [[nrm:Scots]] [[oc:Scots (lenga)]] [[pnb:سکاٹس بولی]] [[pms:Lenga scòts]] [[nds:Scots]] [[pl:Język scots]] [[pt:Scots]] [[ro:Limba scots]] [[ru:Шотландский язык (германский)]] [[sco:Scots leid]] [[scn:Lingua scuzzisa]] [[simple:Lowland Scots language]] [[sk:Škótčina]] [[sl:Scots]] [[fi:Skotin kieli]] [[sv:Lågskotska]] [[ta:சுகாத்து மொழி]] [[tr:İskoçça (Cermen)]] [[uk:Шотландська германська мова]] [[zh:低地蘇格蘭語]]</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:178.94.119.24&diff=394356988</id> <title>User talk:178.94.119.24</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:178.94.119.24&diff=394356988"/> <updated>2010-11-02T11:00:50Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: You have been blocked from editing for persistent vandalism. (TW) <hr /> <div>== November 2010 == [[Image:Stop hand nuvola.svg|30px]] This is your '''only warning'''. If you [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalize]] Wikipedia again, as you did at [[:Slaughterhouse]], you may be '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]] without further notice'''. &lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism4im --&gt; ''(you've done this in a number of places, hence the strong warning. Quit it!)'' '''[[user:tmorton166|Errant]]'''{{small| [tmorton166] {{sup|([[User_talk:tmorton166|chat!]])}}}} 10:57, 2 November 2010 (UTC) :''If this is a shared [[IP address]], and you didn't make any [[Wikipedia:vandalism|unconstructive]] edits, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself so you can avoid further irrelevant warnings.'' &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot;&gt; [[Image:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left]] You have been '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' temporarily from editing for persistent [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]]. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to [[Wikipedia:Five pillars|make useful contributions]]. If you would like to be unblocked, you may [[Wikipedia:Appealing a block|appeal this block]] by adding below this notice the text &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. Do not include the &quot;tlx&quot; argument. --&gt;{{tlx|unblock|Your reason here}}, but you should read the [[Wikipedia:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]] first. [[User talk:TFOWR|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#000&quot;&gt;TFOW&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;color:#A0070C&quot;&gt;R&lt;/b&gt;]] 11:00, 2 November 2010 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;!-- Template:uw-block --&gt;&lt;!-- Template:uw-block --&gt; :''If this is a shared [[IP address]], and you didn't make the edit, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself so you can avoid further irrelevant notices.''</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rama&diff=394356681</id> <title>Rama</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rama&diff=394356681"/> <updated>2010-11-02T10:57:58Z</updated> <summary type="html">TFOWR: Reverted 1 edit by 178.94.119.24 (talk) identified as vandalism to last revision by 121.7.80.223. (TW) <hr /> <div>{{cleanup}} {{Dablink|This article is about the incarnation of [[Vishnu]]. For other uses, see [[Rama (disambiguation)]] and [[Ramachandra (disambiguation)]].}} {{Hdeity infobox| &lt;!--Wikipedia:WikiProject Hindu Puranas--&gt; Image = Lord Rama with arrows.jpg | Caption = | Name = Rama | Sanskrit_Transliteration = Rāma | Devanagari &amp; Hindi = राम | Telugu = {{lang|te|రామ}} | Kannada = {{lang|kn|ರಾಮ}} | Pali_Transliteration = {{lang|es|Rāma}} | Tamil_script = | Script = &lt;!--Enter the name of the deity in the local script used --&gt; | Affiliation = [[Avatar (Hinduism)|Avatar]] of [[Vishnu]] | Mantra = | Weapon = The [[Bow (weapon)|Bow]] (धनुष) | Consort = [[Sita]] (सीता) | Abode = [[Ayodhya]] (अयोध्या) | Siblings = [[Bharat]]a (भरत) , [[Lakshman]]a (लक्ष्मण), [[Shatrughna]] (शत्रुघ्न) | Children = [[Lava (Ramayana)|Lava]] (लव) and [[Kusha (Ramayana)|Kusha]] (कुश) }} '''Rama''' ([[IAST]]: {{IAST|Rāma}}, {{IAST|[[Devanāgarī]]}}: {{Unicode|राम}}; [[Kannada language|Kannada]]: ರಾಮ; {{Lang-bn|রাম (Ram)}}; [[Tamil language|Tamil]]: இராமன்vemu; [[Telugu language|Telugu]]: రామ; {{lang-my|ရာမ}} {{IPA-my|jàma̰|}}; [[Chinese language|Chinese]]: Lomo; [[Javanese language|Javanese]]: Ramavijaya; [[Khmer language|Khmer]]: ព្រះរាម Phreah Ream; [[Lao language|Lao]]: ພຣະຣາມ Phra Lam; [[Malay language|Malay]]: Megat Seri Rama; [[Maranaw]]: Mangandiri; [[Tagalog language|Tagalog]]: Rajah Bantugan; {{lang-th|พระราม}} Phra Ram)&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book | author = Singaravelu Sachithanantham | year = 2004 | title = The Ramayana Tradition in Southeast Asia | publisher = University Malaya Press | isbn = 983-100-234-2 }}&lt;/ref&gt; or '''Ramachandra''' (रामचंद्र, రామచంద్ర )&lt;ref name=Gupta1993&gt;{{cite book | author = Gupta, S.M. | year = 1993 | title = Vishnu and His Incarnations | publisher = South Asia Books | isbn = }}&lt;/ref&gt; is considered to be the '''''[[Daśāvatāra|seventh avatar]] of [[Vishnu]]''''' in [[Hinduism]],&lt;ref name=Ganguly2003&gt;{{cite journal | author = Ganguly, S. | year = 2003 | title = The Crisis of Indian Secularism | journal = Journal of Democracy | volume = 14 | issue = 4 | pages = 11–25 | url = https://muse.jhu.edu/journals/journal_of_democracy/v014/14.4ganguly.html | accessdate = 2008-04-12 | doi = 10.1353/jod.2003.0076 }}&lt;/ref&gt; and a mythological king of [[Ayodhya]] in [[Kingdoms of ancient India|ancient Indian Puranas]]. Based on Puranic genealogy, Rama is believed by Hindus to have lived during 1450 BC, during the Rig Vedic period.&lt;ref name = &quot;Rajesh Kochhar&quot;&gt;{{cite book | author = Kochhar, Ramesh | year = 2009 | title = The Vedic People | publisher = Delhi: Oriental Black Swan. | isbn = 987 81 250 1080 7 }}&lt;/ref&gt; Rama is one of the many popular figures and [[deity|deities]] in [[Hinduism]], specifically [[Vaishnavism]] and Vaishnava religious scriptures in [[South Asia|South]] and [[Southeast Asia|Southeast]] [[Asia]].&lt;ref name=Dimock1963&gt; {{cite journal | author = Dimock Jr, E.C. | year = 1963 | title = Doctrine and Practice among the Vaisnavas of Bengal | journal = History of Religions | volume = 3 | issue = 1 | pages = 106–127 | url = http://www.jstor.org/pss/1062079 | doi = 10.1086/462474 }}&lt;/ref&gt; Most of the details of Rama's life come from the [[Ramayana]], one of the two great [[Indian epic poetry|epics]] of India.&lt;ref name=Rosen1994&gt;{{cite book | author = Rosen, S. | year = 1994 | title = Vaisnavism: Contemporary Scholars Discuss the Gaudiya Tradition | publisher = Motilal Banarsidass Publ. | isbn = }}&lt;/ref&gt; Born as the eldest son of [[Kausalya]] and [[Dasharatha]], king of [[Ayodhya]], Rama is referred to within Hinduism as ''Maryada Purushottama'',&lt;ref name = &quot;Hess2001&quot;&gt;{{cite journal | author = Hess, L. | year = 2001 | title = Rejecting Sita: Indian Responses to the Ideal Man's Cruel Treatment of His Ideal Wife* | journal = Journal of the American Academy of Religion | volume = 67 | issue = 1 | pages = 1–32 | url = http://jaar.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/citation/67/1/1 | accessdate = 2008-04-12 | doi = 10.1093/jaarel/67.1.1 | doi_brokendate = 2010-03-18 }}&lt;/ref&gt; literally ''the Perfect Man'' or ''Lord of Self-Control'' or ''Lord of Virtue''. Rama is the husband of [[Sita]], whom Hindus consider to be an [[Avatar (Hinduism)|avatar]] of [[Lakshmi]] and the embodiment of perfect womanhood.&lt;ref name = &quot;Hess2001&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref name=Kanungo&gt;{{cite journal | author = Kanungo, H. | year = | title = The Distinct Speciality of Lord Jagannath | journal = Orissa Review | url = http://orissagov.nic.in/e-magazine/Orissareview/jul2005/engpdf/the_distinct_speciality_of_lord_jagannath.pdf | accessdate = 2008-04-12 }}&lt;/ref&gt; Rama's life and journey is one of perfect adherence to [[dharma]] despite harsh tests of life and time. He is pictured as the ideal man and the perfect human. For the sake of his father's honour, Rama abandons his claim to Kosala's throne to serve an exile of fourteen years in the forest.&lt;ref name = &quot;Griffith1963&quot;&gt;{{cite book | author = Griffith, R.T.H. | authorlink = Ralph T. H. Griffith | year = 1870–1874 | title = The Rámáyan of Válmíki | url = http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rama/index.htm | publisher = London: Trübner &amp; Co.; Benares: E. J. Lazarus and Co. }}&lt;/ref&gt; His wife [[Sita]] and brother [[Lakshmana]], being unable to live without Rama, decide to join him, and all three spend the fourteen years in exile together. This leads to the kidnapping of Sita by [[Ravana]], the [[Rakshasa]] ([[Asura]]) monarch of [[Lanka]]. After a long and arduous search that tests his personal strength and virtue, Rama fights a colossal war against Ravana's armies. In a war of powerful and magical beings, greatly destructive weaponry and battles, Rama slays Ravana in battle and liberates his wife. Having completed his exile, Rama returns to be crowned king in [[Ayodhya]] (the capital of his kingdom) and eventually becomes emperor,&lt;ref name = &quot;Griffith1963&quot;/&gt; after which he reigns for eleven thousand years – an era of perfect happiness, peace, prosperity and justice known as ''Rama Rajya''. Rama's courage in searching for Sita and fighting a terrible war to rescue his wife and their honour is complemented by Sita's absolute devotion to her husband's love, and perfect chastity despite being Ravana's captive. Rama's younger brothers, namely [[Lakshmana]], [[Shatrughna]] and [[Bharata (Ramayana)|Bharata]] strongly complement his piety, virtue and strength,&lt;ref name = &quot;Griffith1963&quot;/&gt; and they are believed by many to belong to the ''Maryada Purushottama'' and the Seventh Avatara, mainly embodied by Rama. Rama's piety and virtue attract powerful and devoted allies such as [[Hanuman]] and the [[Vanaras]] of Kishkindha, with whose help he rescues Sita.&lt;ref name = &quot;Griffith1963&quot;/&gt; The legend of Rama is deeply influential and popular in the societies of the [[Indian subcontinent]] and across [[South East Asia]]. Rama is revered for his unending compassion,&lt;ref name=Goswami2001&gt;{{cite book | author = [[Satsvarupa dasa Goswami|Goswami, S.D.]] | year = 2001 | title = Vaisnava Compassion | publisher = La Crosse, Florida: GN Press | isbn = }}&lt;/ref&gt; courage and devotion to religious values and duty. ==Etymology== {{Hinduism_small}} :10.3.3cd ''Agni, far-spreading with conspicuous lustre, hath compassed Night [Rama] with whitely shining garments.'' As a personal name it appears in RV 10.93.14: :10.93.14ab ''This to Duhsima Prthavana have I sung, to Vena, Rama, to the nobles &lt;!-- the &quot;nowiki&quot; is to overcome a formatting bug in Mediawiki --&gt; &lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[Asura]]s&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;, and the King.'' The feminine form of the adjective, ''{{IAST|rāmīˊ}}'' is an epitheton of the night ([[Ratri]]), as is ''{{IAST|kṛṣṇīˊ}}'', the feminine of [[Krishna|''{{IAST|kṛṣṇa}}'']], viz. &quot;the dark one; the black one&quot;. Two Ramas are mentioned in the [[Vedas]], with the [[patronymic]]s ''Mārgaveya'' and ''Aupatasvini''; another Rama with the patronymic ''Jāmadagnya'' is the supposed author of a Rigvedic hymn. According to [[Monier-Williams]], three Ramas were celebrated in post-Vedic times, #''Rāma-chandra'' (&quot;Rama-figuratively referred to as the full moon (bright light in the night sky) &quot;), son of [[Dasaratha]], believed to have descended from [[Raghu]]. (The Rama of this article). #''[[Parashurama|Parashu-rāma]]'' (&quot;Rama of the [[Battle-axe]]&quot;), the Sixth Avatara of Vishnu, sometimes also referred to as ''Jāmadagnya'', or as ''Bhārgava Rāma'' (descended from [[Bhrigu]]), a &quot;Chiranjeevi&quot; or Immortal. #''[[Balarama|Bala-rāma]]'' (&quot;the strong Rama&quot;), also called ''Halāyudha'' (Wielder of the Plough as Weapon), the older brother and close companion of [[Krishna]], the Eighth Avatara of Vishnu. In the [[Vishnu sahasranama]], Rama is the 394th name of Vishnu. In the interpretation of [[Adi Sankara]]'s commentary, translated by Swami [[Tapasyananda]] of the [[Ramakrishna Mission]], Rama has two meanings: the supreme [[Brahman]] who is the eternally blissful spiritual Self in whom [[yogis]] delight, or the One (i.e., Vishnu) who out of His own will assumed the enchanting form of Rama, the son of Dasaratha. ==Literary sources== The primary source of the life and journey of Rama is the epic Ramayana as composed by the Rishi [[Valmiki]]. The [[Vishnu Purana]] also recounts Rama as Vishnu's seventh avatara, and in the [[Bhagavata Purana]], ninth skandha, adhyayas 10 &amp; 11, the story of the Ramayana is again recounted in brief up to an including the slaying of Ravana and Prince Rama's return to Ayodhya. Additionally, the tales of Rama are reverently spoken of in the epic ''[[Mahabharata]]''. The epic had many versions across India's regions. However, other scriptures in Sanskrit reflect the life of Ramayana. The followers of Sri Madhvacharya believe that an older version of the Ramayana, the mula-Ramayana, previously existed but is no longer extant. They consider it to be more authoritative than the version by [[Valmiki]]. Another important shortened version of the epic in Sanskrit is the ''Aadhyaatma Ramayana''. The seventh century CE Sanskrit &quot;Bhatti's Poem&quot; [[Bhaṭṭikāvya]] of Bhaṭṭi who lived in [[Gujarat]], is a retelling of the epic that simultaneously illustrates the grammatical examples for [[Pāṇini's]] [[Aṣṭādhyāyī]] as well as the major figures of speech and the [[Prakrit]] language.&lt;ref&gt;[[Fallon, Oliver]]. 2009. Bhatti’s Poem: The Death of Rávana (Bhaṭṭikāvya). New York: [[Clay Sanskrit Library]][http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/]. ISBN 978-0-8147-2778-2 | ISBN 0-8147-2778-6 |&lt;/ref&gt; Versions of the Ramayana exist in most major Indian languages; examples that elaborate on the life, deeds and divine philosophies of Rama include the epic poem ''[[Kambaramayanam]]'' by the 12th century poet [[Kambar (poet)|Kamban]] in [[Tamil language|Tamil]], and ''[[Ramacharitamanasa]]'', a [[Hindi]] version of the Ramayana by the 16th century Saint [[Tulsidas]]. Contemporary versions of the Ramayana include [[Sri Ramayana Darshanam]] by [[Kuvempu]] in [[Kannada language|Kannada]] and ''Ramayana Kalpavrikshamu'' by [[Viswanatha Satyanarayana]] in [[Telugu language|Telugu]], both of which have been awarded the [[Jnanpith Award]]. The epic has transformed across the diverse regions of India, which boast their own unique languages and cultural traditions.&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.maxwell.syr.edu/maxpages/special/ramayana/immappop.jpg Regional Ramayanas]&lt;/ref&gt; The essential tale of Rama has also spread across [[South East Asia]], and evolved into unique renditions of the epic – incorporating local history, folktales, religious values as well as unique features from the languages and literary discourse. The ''[[Kakawin Ramayana]]'' of [[Java (island)|Java]], [[Indonesia]], the ''Ramakavaca'' of [[Bali]], ''Hikayat Seri Rama'' of [[Malaysia]], ''Maradia Lawana'' of the [[Philippines]], ''[[Ramakien]]'' of [[Thailand]] (which calls him ''Phra Ram'') are great works with many unique characteristics and differences in accounts and portrayals of the legend of Rama. The legends of Rama are witnessed in elaborate illustration at the [[Wat Phra Kaew]] temple in [[Bangkok]]. The national epic of [[Myanmar]], ''[[Yama Zatdaw]]'' is essentially the Burmese ''Ramayana'', where Rama is named ''Yama''. In the [[Reamker]] of [[Cambodia]], Rama is known as ''Preah Ream''. In the ''[[Pra Lak Pra Lam]]'' of [[Laos]], [[Gautama Buddha|Buddha]] is regarded as an incarnation of Rama. ==Avatara== {{Main|Avatar (Hinduism)#Avatars of Vishnu|l1=Avatars of Vishnu}} {{See also|Daśāvatāra}} The ''Ramayana'' speaks of how the Goddess Earth ([[Bhumidevi]]), came to the Lord Creator, [[Brahma]] begging to be rescued from evil kings who were plundering her resources and destroying life through bloody wars and evil conduct. The [[deva (Hinduism)|Devas]] also came to Brahma fearful of the rule of Ravana, the ten-headed rakshasa emperor of Lanka. Ravana had overpowered the Devas and now ruled the heavens, the earth and the netherworlds. Although a powerful and noble monarch, he was also arrogant, destructive and a patron of evil doers. He had boons that gave him immense strength and was invulnerable to all living and celestial beings, except man and animals.&lt;ref name=&quot;menon_10-11&quot;&gt;R. Menon, ''The Ramayana'', pp. 10–11&lt;/ref&gt; [[Brahma]], [[Bhumidevi]] and the [[Deva (Hinduism)|Devas]] worshipped [[Vishnu]], the Preserver, for deliverance from [[Ravana]]'s tyrannical rule. Vishnu promised to kill Ravana by incarnating as a man – the eldest son of Kosala's king [[Dasaratha]].&lt;ref name=&quot;menon_10-11&quot; /&gt; His eternal consort, [[Lakshmi]] took birth as [[Sita]] and was found by king [[Janaka]] of [[Mithila]] while he was ploughing a field. Vishnu's eternal companion, the [[Ananta Sesha]] is said to have incarnated as [[Lakshmana]] to stay at his Lord's side on earth. Throughout his life, no one, except himself and a few select sages (among which are included [[Vasishta]], Sharabhanga, [[Agastya]] and [[Vishwamitra]]) know of his destiny. Rama is continually revered by the many sages he encounters through his life, but only the most learned and exalted know of his true identity. At the end of the war between Rama and Ravana, just as Sita passes her ''Agni pariskha'', Lord Brahma, Indra and the Devas, the celestial sages and Lord Shiva appear out of the sky. They affirm Sita's purity and ask him to end this terrible test. Thanking the Avatara for delivering the universe from the grips of evil, they reveal Rama's divine identity upon the culmination of his mission.&lt;ref&gt;R. Menon, ''The Ramayanaa'', pp. 496–500&lt;/ref&gt; ==Prince of Ayodhya== [[Image:Birth of rama.jpg|right|thumb|Birth of Rama]] King [[Dasaratha]] performs a ''{{IAST|putrakameṣṭi yajña}}'', a sacrifice to obtain offspring by pleasing the gods. He gives the sacred, sacrificial nectar to his three wives according to their seniority: [[Kousalya]], [[Sumitra]] and [[Kaikeyi]]. On the night of the ninth day after ''Amavasya'', under the [[Asterism (astronomy)|asterism]] of ''Punarvasu'' and the cardinal sign of the [[Cancer (astrology)|Crab]], Rama was born in the city of [[Ayodhya]], which is the capital of the ancient kingdom of [[Kosala]]. The city and the area are located in the central region of the modern state of [[Uttar Pradesh]] in [[India]]. Rama was the prince of the ''Suryavamsha'' ([[Suryavanshi|Sun Dynasty]]) House of [[Ikshvaku]], descendant of great monarchs like [[Ikshvaku]], [[Raghu]] and [[Bhagiratha]]. He is the eldest brother to [[Bharata (Ramayana)|Bharata]], son of [[Kaikeyi]], and the twin sons of [[Sumitra]], [[Lakshmana]] and [[Shatrughna]]. Rama is dark-complexioned, mainly bluish – a symbol of divinity.&lt;ref&gt;R. Menon, ''The Ramayana'', pp. 12–13&lt;/ref&gt; In Ramayana Rama is referred to as Aryaputra (son of an Aryan). The ''Ramayana'' describes the relationship between the brothers as intensely loving and devotional, although Rama and Lakshmana share a special, inseparable bond, while Bharata is especially close to Shatrughna. The four brothers enjoy an undiscriminating love from Dasaratha and his three queens, but Dasaratha's main affections are affixed upon Rama. Rama and his brothers are trained by [[Rishi]] [[Vasishta]] in the [[Vedas]], religion, philosophy and the sciences. They are described as taller than the tallest men of modern times, possessive of exceptional acumen and prowess in the military sciences and arts.&lt;ref&gt;R. Menon, ''The Ramayana'', pp. 14&lt;/ref&gt; ==Initiation of the Avatara== [[Image:Ravi Varma-Rama-breaking-bow.jpg|thumb|200px|left|Rama breaking the bow, [[Raja Ravi Varma]] (1848–1906)]] Sage [[Vishwamitra]] takes the two princes, Rama and [[Lakshmana]], to his ashram, as he needs Rama's help in slaying several [[Rakshasa]]s that have been harassing him and several other sages living in the area. Rama's first encounter is with a Rakshasi named [[Tataka|Taataka]], who is a celestial nymph cursed to take the form of a demoness. Vishwamitra explains that she has polluted much of the habitat where the sages reside and there will not be any contentment until she is destroyed. Rama has some reservations about killing a woman, but since Taataka poses such a big threat to the Rishis and he is expected to follow their word, he fights with Taataka and kills her with a poisoned arrow. After her death, the surrounding forest becomes greener and cleaner. Vishwamitra presents Rama with several astras and sastras (divine weapons) that will be of use to him in the future, and Rama masters the knowledge of all the weapons and their uses. Vishwamitra then tells Rama and Lakshmana that soon, he along with some of his disciples, will perform a yagna for seven days and nights that will be of great benefit to the world, and the two princes must keep close watch for the two sons of Taataka, [[Maricha|Mareecha]] and [[Subahu]], who will try to defile the yagna at all costs. The princes therefore keep a strong vigil for all of the days, and on the seventh day they spot Maricha and Subahu come with a whole host of Raakshasas ready to pour bones and blood into the fire. Rama points his bow at the two, and with one arrow kills Subahu, and with the other arrow flings Mareecha thousands of miles away into the ocean. Lakshmana deals with the rest of the demons. The yagna is completed successfully Rama also frees [[Ahalya]], the wife of [[Gautama Maharishi]], from a curse. She was cursed to turn into stone by her husband after a displeasing incident. However, the dust on Rama's feet touched the stone and turned it back into a woman again. Gautama Maharishi was gratified that everything was back to normal again. Sage Vishwamitra then takes the two princes to the ''[[Swayamvara]]'' ceremony for Sita. The challenge is to string the bow of [[Shiva]], and shoot an arrow with it. This task is considered impossible for any ordinary king or living being, as this is the personal weapon of Shiva, more powerful, holy and of divine creation than conceivable. While attempting to string the bow, Rama breaks it in two. This feat of strength spreads his fame across the worlds and seals his marriage to Sita.&lt;ref&gt;R. Menon, ''The Ramayana'', pp. 50&lt;/ref&gt; After Rama weds Sita and the entire royal family and the Ayodhya army begin their journey back, the great rishi [[Parashurama]] (Bhargava Rama) appears before them, having descended from his mountainous hermitage. Parashurama is an extremely powerful rishi, responsible for killing all of the world's tyrannical and oppressive emperors and kings 21 times. He was the sixth Avatara of Vishnu, and finds it unbelievable that anybody could break the bow of Shiva. Considering himself to still be the most powerful warrior-rishi on earth, he brings with them the bow of [[Vishnu]], and intends to challenge Rama to prove his strength by stringing it, and then fighting a battle with him to prove superiority.&lt;ref&gt;R. Menon, ''The Ramayana'', pp. 57&lt;/ref&gt; Although the entire Ayodhya army is forestalled by his mystical power, Rama is himself angered. He respectfully bows to Parashurama, and within a twinkling of an eyelid snatches the bow of Vishnu, strings it, places an arrow and points it straight at the challenger's heart. Rama asks Parashurama what he will give as a target to the arrow in return for his life? At this point, Parashurama feels himself devoid of the tremendous mystical energy he possessed for so long. He realizes that Rama is Vishnu incarnate, his successor and definitely his superior. He accepts Rama's superiority, devotes his [[tapasya]] to him, pays homage to Rama and promises to return to his hermitage and leave the world of men.&lt;ref name=&quot;menon_59&quot;&gt;R. Menon, ''The Ramayana'', pp. 59&lt;/ref&gt; Rama then shoots the arrow up into the sky with Vishnu's bow, performing a feat true to his supreme, divine nature with his natural weapon. His overpowering of Parashurama and using the supreme weapon with incredible ease and perfection dazzle the spectators and his relatives, but no one save Parashurama and [[Vasishta]] associate this with his true identity. It is said that the Rama's arrow is still flying across space, across time and across all of the universe. The day it will return to earth, it is said, it will bring the end of the world. Others say that the flying arrow destroys all evil on earth to uphold dharma and righteousness.&lt;ref name=&quot;menon_59&quot; /&gt; ==Dharma of exile== King Dasaratha announces to Ayodhya that he plans to crown Rama, his eldest child the ''[[Yuvaraja]]'' (''crown prince''). While the news is welcomed by everyone in the kingdom, the mind of queen Kaikeyi is poisoned by her wicked maid-servant, [[Manthara]]. Kaikeyi, who is initially pleased for Rama, is made to fear for the safety and future of her son Bharata. Fearing that Rama would ignore or possibly victimize his youngest brother for the sake of power, Kaikeyi demands that Dasaratha banish Rama to a forest exile for fourteen years, and that Bharata be crowned in Rama's place. She had been granted two boons by the king when she had saved his life a long time ago in battle, and the queen now used them to serve her purpose.&lt;ref&gt;R. Menon, ''The Ramayana'', pp. 77&lt;/ref&gt; The king's court and the people are outraged at this turn of events. Dasaratha loved and cherished Rama dearly, and was in personal turmoil. Completely estranged now from his younger wife, he abhors the prospect of separation from Rama. But Rama realizes that the king must not break a solemn promise at any time, and neither should a son disobey his father's command. Sita joins her husband in exile despite his discouraging her, as it is her duty and out of love for Rama that she must be at his side at all times. His younger brother Lakshmana also immediately decides to join Rama rather than remain in the city.&lt;ref name=&quot;Menon_91&quot;&gt;R. Menon, ''The Ramayana'', pp. 91&lt;/ref&gt; As he leaves for exile, the people of Ayodhya are deeply saddened and angered at Dasaratha and Kaikeyi. Dasaratha's heart is broken and he collapses and dies by the next day, unable to bear the agony of separation from Rama. Despite the reasoning of Vasishtha and the pleas of his brothers, Rama refuses to return. Although horrified at the news of his father's death, Rama finds it impossible that he should break his dead father's word. Rama does not bear any anger towards Kaikeyi, believing firmly in the power of destiny.&lt;ref&gt;R. Menon, ''The Ramayana'', pp. 87–88&lt;/ref&gt; According to the explanation of the classic, this exile actually presents Rama the opportunity to confront Ravana and his evil empire. ==Rama and Sita== {{see also|Sita}} [[File:Ravivarmapress Rama family.jpg|thumb|Rama with Sita on the throne, their children Lava and Kusha on their laps. Behind the throne, Lakshamana, Bharata and Shatrughna stand. Hanuman bows to Rama before the throne. Valmiki to the left]] Rama and Sita are the protagonists in one of the most famous love stories of all time. Described as being deeply in love, Sita and Rama are theologically understood as [[Avatar (Hinduism)|avatar]]s of [[Lakshmi]] and [[Vishnu]] respectively. When Rama is banished from the kingdom, he attempts to convince Sita not to join him in a potentially dangerous and certainly arduous existence in the jungle, but Sita rejects this. When Rama orders her in his capacity as husband, Sita rejects it, asserting that it was an essential duty of a wife to be at her husband's side come good or ill.&lt;ref name=&quot;Menon_91&quot;/&gt; Rama in turn is assiduously protective and caring for Sita throughout the exile. When Sita is kidnapped by [[Ravana]], both Sita and Rama undergo great personal hardships during their separation. Sita protects her chastity assiduously, and survives over a year in captivity on the strength of her love and attention to religious values and duty. She is completely unfettered in her resolve despite Ravana's courting, cajoling and threats. Meanwhile Rama, not knowing who had kidnapped Sita or where was she taken, often succumbs to despair and tears, denouncing himself for failing to defend her and agonizing over her safety and pain. Sita knows that it is in Rama's destiny to fight to rescue her (she refuses to be rescued thus by [[Hanuman]], who discovers her), but is deeply anxious for his safety and fearful of Ravana's power. ===Agni pariksha=== Lord Rama sent a messenger to Ravana that said, &quot;Come to me and I will forgive you,&quot; before he slays Ravana. After Rama slays Ravana and wins the war, Sita wants to come before him in the state which over a year's imprisonment had reduced her to, Rama arranges for Sita to be bathed and given beautiful garments before they are re-united. But even as Sita comes before him in great excitement and happiness, Rama does not look at her, staring fixedly at the ground. He tells her that he had fought the war only to avenge the dishonour that Ravana had inflicted on Raghuvamsa and Sita. At this sudden turn of events, all the vanaras, rakshasas, Sugriva, Hanuman and Lakshmana are deeply shocked.&lt;ref&gt;Menon, R. ''The Ramayana'', pp. 494–496&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Agni pariksha.jpg|thumb|The Agni pariksha]] Sita begs Lakshmana to build her a pyre upon which she could end her life, as she could not live without Rama. At this point, Lakshmana is angered at Rama for the first time in his life, but following Rama's nod, he builds a pyre for Sita. At the great shock and sorrow of the watchers, Sita walks into the flames. But to their greater shock and wonder, she is completely unharmed. Instead, she glows radiantly from the centre of the pyre. Immediately Rama runs to Sita and embraces her. He had never doubted her purity for a second, but, as he explains to a dazzled Sita, the people of the world would not have accepted or honoured her as a queen or a woman if she had not passed this ''Agni pariksha'' before the eyes of millions, where [[Agni]] would destroy the impure and sinful, but not touch the pure and innocent.&lt;ref&gt;Menon, R. ''The Ramayana'', pp. 496–498&lt;/ref&gt; There is a version of [[Tulsidas]]'s [[Ramacharitamanasa]], which is popular, which states that Rama had Sita under the protection of Agni God. After Sita was released it was necessary to bring her out of security of Agni god.&lt;ref&gt;[http://gitapress.org/BOOKS/1318/1318_Sri%20Ramchritmanas_Roman.pdf Tulsidas]&lt;/ref&gt; Another version of this, used in [[Ramanand Sagar]]'s [[Ramayan (TV series)|Ramayan]], was that Rama had known Sita was going to be abducted by Ravana ahead of time. So, he entrusted her to Agni Dev, or the God of Fire. Rama did this so that he, who in reality was Vishnu, could kill Ravana. Sita, in turn, left behind a &quot;shadow&quot;, or twin-like version of herself behind. The &quot;shadow&quot; Sita had been abducted by Ravana. Therefore, the lila of Agni Pariksha was to retrieve the genuine Sita from the temporary care of Agni Dev. Rama explains this to Lakshmana before the &quot;Pariksha&quot; is done. This version has also been written in the Ram Charit Manas. ===Sita's banishment=== In the ''Uttara Kanda'', Rama banishes his wife Sita, even as she is pregnant, asking Lakshmana to deliver her safely to Rishi [[Valmiki]]'s ashram. He does so when it is reported to him that some subjects of his in Ayodhya believed that Sita was not fit due to her long captivity in Ravana's city. As a king is expected to uphold moral principles, Rama reluctantly banished Sita in order to uphold his duty as a king. A legend by Rishi [[Agastya]] in the epic states that [[Vishnu]] in a previous age had been cursed by a [[rishi]], whose wife had been killed by Vishnu for sheltering his enemies escaping from battle. The Rishi condemns Vishnu to be denied for a long age the companionship of his soul mate, just as Vishnu, by an inadvertent display of anger, had deprived the rishi of his loving wife. Thus Rama, Vishnu's incarnation, must live the rest of his life without Sita.&lt;ref&gt;D. Pattanaik, ''Indian Puranas'', pp. 111&lt;/ref&gt; Many Hindus, such as the followers of [[Sri Vaishnavism]], consider this entire section of the Ramayana to be interpolated, and thus they do not accept the authenticity of this story claiming that Sita was banished. ===Children=== [[File:Rama lava kusha.jpg|thumb|Rama fighting Lava and Kusha]] {{main|Kusha (Ramayana)|Lava (Ramayana)}} According to legend, [[Kusha (Ramayana)|Kusha]] and [[Lava (Ramayana)|Lava]] are the twin sons of Lord Rama and Sita. Born in the forest after the banishment of Sita from [[Ayodhya]], the twins were educated and trained in military skills as their mother took refuge in Sage [[Valmiki]]'s [[ashram]], located in a forest on the banks of the River [[Tamsa river|Tamsa]]. As Rama performed the [[Ashvamedha]] [[Yajna]], a horse strayed into their forest, Rama sent Hanuman to retrieve the horses. Rama's sons Luv and Kush captured the horses. Hanuman, seeing Luv and Kush recognised that they were the son's of Rama. He let them capture him and tie him up. There Hanuman started meditating on the name Rama. Worried Rama sent his brothers to look for the horses. As they saw Hanuman tied up and two boys guarding him, they thought that the two boy had stolen the horses. So Ramas brothers started attacking Luv and Kush. Although Rama's brothers should have won, but Luv and Kush defeated them all, knocking them unconscious. Luv and Kush were protected by Hanuman. Then Rama himself went looking for the horses fearing that Hanuman and his brothers had been attacked. Rama found his brothers on the floor. He was enraged. He then started fiercely attacking Luv and Kush not knowing they were his children. Though his attacks had no effect on them he saw Hanuman meditating. At that moment he knew that Hanuman was protecting them. Rama then started attacking Hanuman. But none of his weapons had any effect on him either. The sage Valmiki then awoke the brothers and Hanuman, explaining to Rama that Luv and Kush were his sons. When Devi Sita found out that Lava and Kusha had defeated Ayodhya's forces, she proudly revealed their/her identity. Once she had witnessed the acceptance of her children by Rama, Sita sought final refuge in the arms of her mother Bhumidevi, the Goddess Mother Earth. ==Maryada Purushottama== As a person, Rama personifies the characteristics of an ideal person (purushottama) who is to be emulated. He had within him all the desirable virtues that any individual would seek to aspire, and he fulfils all his moral obligations (maryada). Rama's purity and piety in his intentions and actions inspires affection and devotion for him from a variety of characters from different backgrounds. For example, he gave up his rightful claim to the throne, and agreed to go into exile for fourteen years, to fulfill the vow that his father had given to Kaikeyi, one of King Dashratha's wives. This is in spite of the fact that Kaikeyi's son, Bharat, begged him to return back to Ayodhya and said that he did not want to rule in place of Rama. But Rama considered his dharma as a son above that of his own birthright and his life's ambition. For such supreme sacrifices, and many other qualities, Rama is considered a ''maryada purushottam''. Some of his ideals are as follows: 1. At the time when it was normal for kings to have more than one wife, Rama gave ideal of having a single wife. After [[Sita]] was banished, he was doing penance with a gold statue of Sita. In Balakanda of Valmiki Ramayana it is written that Rama and Sita resided in each others heart. 2. Rama always followed his promise at any cost. In fact, he went to forest to make his father's promise to Kaikeyi true. Another instance was when, he had promised the Spirit of Time that during their conversation, if anyone was to intrude, Rama would have pronounce an instant death sentence upon the individual. They were intruded upon by his beloved younger brother [[Lakshmana]], and to keep his part of the promise, pronounced the death sentence. There are many examples of Rama's promises which he kept. Most important are the promise to sages to save their lives from [[Rakshasas]], getting back [[Sugreeva]]'s kingdom, making [[Vibhishana]] the king of [[Lanka]]. 3. Excellent friend: Rama had very touching relations with his friends irrespective of their status. Some of his friends are Nishada-raja Guha, King of [[Nishaada]]s (a caste whose profession was hunting the birds), Sugreeva (the [[Vanar]] king) and [[Vibhishana]] a Rakshasa. 4. Even towards his enemies, Rama showed great nobility and virtue. To gather information about the enemy army's strengths and weaknesses, Ravana sent two of his spies, Suka and Sarana, to the Vanara camps. Disguised as Vanaras they blended into the enemy camp, but Vibhishana saw through their deceit and presented the two spies to Rama. Rama then asked them what their mission was and whether they fulfilled it. After listening to them, he sent for a Vanara to give them a proper tour of all the Vanara camps and give them all the information they desired about the major soldiers and their strengths. He then told the spies to give this message to Ravana. &quot;Tomorrow morning, I will destroy all of Lanka. Keep all sides of your palace well defended and be ready with all of your men by sunrise.&quot; The spies were greatly astonished with Rama's charisma, courage, and adherence to the codes of war. After Rama gave them leave, they knew that their king was bound to lose against this virtuous and courageous man. When Ravana first fought with Rama, Rama defeated him to such an extent that Ravana lost his charioteer, horses, chariot, flag, weapons and armor. Though the situation was at his advantage, Rama instead praised Ravana for a great fight that day, and asked him to retire and take rest, as he must be quite tired. Ravana was greatly embarrassed at this, but he was also gratified that Rama saved his life, and this led him to consider for a moment whether to retreat and give Sita back. ==Companions== Even as Rama is the ideal conception of manhood, he is often aided and complemented in different situations by the characteristics by those who accompany him. They serve Rama devotedly, at great personal risk and sacrifice. ===Bharata and Lakshmana=== {{main|Bharata (Ramayana)|Lakshmana}} {{see also|Shatrughna}} Absent when Rama is exiled, upon his return Bharata is appalled to learn of the events. And even though Kaikeyi had done all this for his benefit, Bharata is angered at the suggestion that he should take Ayodhya's throne. Denouncing his mother, Bharata proclaims to the city that he would go to the forest to fetch Rama back, and would serve out his term of exile himself. Although initially resentful and suspicious, the people of Ayodhya hail Bharata's selfless nature and courageous act. Despite his fervent pleas to return, Rama asserts that he must stay in the forest to keep his father's word. He orders Bharata to perform his duty as king of Ayodhya, especially important after Dasaratha's death, and orders Shatrughna to support and serve him. Returning saddened to the city, Bharata refuses to wear the crown or sit on the throne. Instead, he places the slippers of Rama that he had taken back with him on the throne, and rules Ayodhya assiduously keeping Rama's beliefs and values in mind. When Rama finally returns, Bharata runs personally to welcome him back. Bharata is hailed for his devotion to his elder brother and dharma, distinguished from Lakshmana as he is left on his own for fourteen years. But he unfailingly denies self-interest throughout this time, ruling the kingdom only in Rama's image.&lt;ref&gt;R. Menon, ''The Ramayana'', pp. 132&lt;/ref&gt; Vasishtha proclaims that no one had better learnt dharma than Bharata,&lt;ref&gt;R. Menon, ''The Ramayana'', pp. 130&lt;/ref&gt; and for this piety he forms an essential part of the conception of perfect manhood, of the Seventh Avatara of Vishnu. Shatrughna's role to Bharata is akin to that of Lakshmana to Rama. Believed to be one-quarter of Vishnu incarnated, or as the incarnation of his eternal companion, [[Ananta Sesha]], Lakshmana is always at Rama's side.&lt;ref&gt;R. Menon, ''The Ramayana'', pp. 656&lt;/ref&gt; Although unconstrained by Dasaratha's promise to Kaikeyi, Lakshmana resists Rama's arguments and accompanies him and Sita into the forest. During the years of exile, Lakshmana constantly serves Rama and Sita – building huts, standing guard and finding new routes. When Sita is kidnapped, Rama blazes with his divine power and in his immense rage, expresses the desire to destroy all creation. Lakshmana prays and pleads for Rama to calm himself, and despite the shock of the moment and the promise of travails to come, begin an arduous but systematic search for Sita. During times when the search is proving fruitless and Rama fears for Sita, and expresses despair in his grief and loneliness, Lakshmana encourages him, providing hope and solace. When Rama in his despair fears that Sugriva has forgotten his promise to help him trace Sita, Lakshmana goes to Kishkindha to remind the complacent monarch of his promise to help. But Lakshmana kicks down the city gate and threatens to destroy Sugriva and the monkey kingdom with his own divine power. Lakshmana is unable to tolerate Sugriva breaking his vow to Rama while enjoying material and sensual pleasures while Rama suffers alone. It is only through the diplomatic intervention of Queen Tara, Sugriva's wife, that Lakshmana is pacified. Tara then scolds and galvanises Sugriva into honoring his promise to Rama. Sugriva and Rama are then reconciled with the help of Lakshmana and Tara. And finally Sugriva appoints Hanuman to find the location of Sita and lead the monkey army into battle against the demonic forces of Ravana.&lt;ref&gt;The Ramayana. R.K.Narayan. Vision Books. 1987. Chapter 7.&lt;/ref&gt; Lakshmana is uniquely responsible for slaying [[Indrajit]], the invincible son of Ravana who had humiliated Indra and the Devas, and outwitted the brothers and the Vanaras on several occasions. Rishi Agastya later points out that this victory was the turning point of the conflict. Rama is often overcome with emotion and deep affection for Lakshmana, acknowledging how important and crucial Lakshmana's love and support was for him. He also trusts Lakshmana to carry out difficult orders – Lakshmana was asked to take Sita to the ashrama of Valmiki, where she was to spend her exile. Lakshmana's deep love for Rama, his unconditional service and sacrifice, as well as qualities of practical judgment and clear-headedness make him Rama's superior in certain situations and perspectives. Lakshmana symbolizes a man's duty to his family, brothers and friends, and forms an essential part of the conception of ideal manhood, that Rama primarily embodies. ===Jatayu, Hanuman and Vibheeshana=== {{main|Jatayu (Ramayana)|Hanuman|Vibheeshana}} When Rama and Lakshmana begin the desperate search to discover where Sita had been taken. After traversing a distance in many directions, they come across the magical eagle [[Jatayu (Ramayana)|Jatayu]], who is dying. They discover from Jatayu that a rakshasa was flying away with a crying, struggling Sita towards the south. Jatayu had flown to the rescue of Sita, but owing to his age and the rakshasa's power, had been defeated. With this, Jatayu dies in Rama's arms. Rama is overcome with love and affection for the bird which sacrificed its own life for Sita, and the rage of his death returns to him in the climactic battle with Ravana. Rama's only allies in the struggle to find Sita are the [[Vanaras]] of Kishkindha. Finding a terrified [[Sugriva]] being hunted by his own brother, king [[Vali (Ramayana)|Vali]], Rama promises to kill Vali and free Sugriva of the terror and the unjust charge of plotting to murder Vali. The two swear everlasting friendship over sacred fire. Rama's natural piety and compassion, his sense of justice and duty, as well as his courage despite great personal suffering after Sita's kidnapping inspire devotion from the Vanaras and Sugriva, but especially [[Hanuman]], Sugriva's minister. Devoted to Rama, Hanuman exerts himself greatly over the search for Sita. He is the first to discover that Sita was taken to Lanka, and volunteers to use his divine gifts in a dangerous reconnaissance of Lanka, where he is to verify Sita's presence. Hanuman hands Rama's ring to Sita, as a mark of Rama's love and his imminent intention of rescuing her. Though captured, he candidly delivers Rama's message to Ravana to immediately release Sita, and when his tail is burned, he flees and sets Lanka on fire. When Lakshmana is struck down and near death and Rama overcome with love and concern for his brother, Hanuman flies to the [[Himalayas]] on the urgent mission to fetch the ''sanjeevani'' medicinal herbs, bringing the entire mountain to Lanka so that no time is lost in saving Lakshmana.&lt;ref&gt;R. Menon, ''The Ramayana'', pp. 447&lt;/ref&gt; The Vanaras fight the rakshasas, completely devoted to Rama's cause. They angrily dismiss Ravana's efforts to create divisions by suggesting that Rama considered them, monkeys, as mere animals. At the end of the war, Rama worships Brahma, who restores life to the millions of fallen Vanaras.&lt;ref&gt;R. Menon, ''The Ramayana'', pp. 499&lt;/ref&gt; Before the onset of war, rakshasa prince [[Vibheeshana]], Ravana's youngest brother comes to join Rama. Although he loves his brother and Lanka, he fails in repeated efforts to make Ravana follow religious values and return Sita. Vibheeshana believes that Ravana's arrogance and callousness will cause the destruction of Lanka, which is a gross violation of a king's duty, and that Ravana's actions have only propagated evil. Vibheeshana refuses to defend the evil of Ravana's ways and inspired by Rama's compassion and piety, leaves Lanka to join the Vanara Army.&lt;ref&gt;R. Menon, ''The Ramayana'', pp. 369–72&lt;/ref&gt; His knowledge of rakshasa ways and Ravana's mind help Rama and the Vanaras overcome black magic and mystical weapons. At the end of the war, Rama crowns Vibheeshana as the king of Lanka. Vibheeshana, and to a greater extent Hanuman, embody the perfect devotee in the wider conception of perfect manhood. ==Rama in war== [[Image:Wat phra keaw ramayana fresco.jpg|thumb|left|300px|The epic story of Ramayana was adopted by several cultures across Asia. Shown here is a [[Thailand|Thai]] historic artwork depicting the battle which took place between Rama and Ravana.]] When Rama is sixteen years old, he and his brother Lakshmana are taken by [[Vishwamitra]] to the forests, with the purpose of killing [[rakshasa]]s who are wrecking the [[tapasya]] and sacrifices of [[brahmins]]. Rama and Lakshmana are taught the advanced military arts and given the knowledge of all celestial weapons by Vishwamitra. Rama proceeds to slay [[Tadaka]], a cursed [[yaksha]] demoness. When asked to slay the demoness, Rama demurs, considering it sinful to kill a woman. But Vishwamitra explains that evil has no gender. The killing of Tadaka liberates the yaksha soul who was cursed for a sin, and had to adopt a [[rakshasa|rakshasi's]] body. It restores the purity of the sacrifices of the brahmins who live nearby, and protects the animals who live in the forest, and travelers. The main purpose of Vishwamitra's exursion is to conduct his [[yagna]] without interruption from two evil demons, [[Maricha]] and [[Subahu]]. Rama and Lakshmana guard the sacrifice, and when the two demons appear, Rama shoots an arrow that carries Maricha across the lands and into the ocean, but does not kill him. Rama and his brother then proceed to kill Subahu and accompanying demons. Rama explains to Lakshmana that leaving Maricha alive was an act of compassion, but the others did not heed the point and chose to attack.&lt;ref&gt;R. Menon, ''The Ramayana'', pp. 29&lt;/ref&gt; During the forest exile, sages plead for protection and help against evil rakshasas who spoil their sacrifices and religious activities and terrorize them. Many rakshasas had even killed and eaten sages and innocent people. At Janasthana, Rama uses his exceptional prowess to single-handedly kill over fourteen thousand demon hordes led by the powerful Khara, who is a cousin of Ravana. ===Sagara=== [[Image:Rama-Varuna.jpg|thumb|[[Raja Ravi Varma]] Painting – 'Rama Conquers Varuna']] Faced with the dilemma of how to cross the ocean, Rama performs a penance [[tapasya]], fasting and meditating in perfect [[dhyana]] for three days and three nights to [[Varuna]], the Lord of Oceans. The ocean god does not respond out of arrogance, and Rama on the fourth morning, pointed the [[brahmastra]] towards the ocean. The Vanaras are dazzled and fearful at witnessing the enraged Rama demolish the oceans, and Lakshmana prays to calm Rama's mind. Just as Rama invokes the brahmastra, considered the most powerful weapon capable of destroying all creation, Saagara arises out of the oceans. He bows to Rama, and begs for pardon. Since lord Rama had to use the weapon, he suggests Rama re-direct the weapon at a demonic race that lives in the heart of the ocean. Rama's arrows destroys the demons, and establishes a purer, liberated environment there. Saagara promises that he would keep the oceans still for all of Rama's army to pass, and Nala constructs a bridge ([[Rama's Bridge]]) across to Lanka. Rama justifies his angry assault on the oceans as he followed the correct process of petitioning and worshipping Saagara, but obtaining the result by force for the greater good.&lt;ref&gt;R. Menon, ''The Ramayana'', pp. 376–81&lt;/ref&gt; In another version of the story, Lord Rama redirected his missile to the barren Island, and as a result huge volcanic eruption resulted. This volcano is the one which is found till today at the southern part of Indian peninsula . ===Facing Ravana=== {{see also|Ravana}} [[Image:Ravana.jpg|thumb|200px|Ravana, Demon [[Monarch|King]] of Lanka]] Rama asserts his dedication to dharma when he undertakes to offer Ravana a final chance to make peace, despite his heinous actions and patronage of evil, by immediately returning Sita and apologizing to both Rama and Sita, but Ravana refuses. In the war, Rama slays the most powerful rakshasa commanders, including [[Prahasta]], Atikaya and with Ravana's brother, [[Kumbhakarna]] along with hundreds of thousands of rakshasa soldiers. He outfights Ravana in their first battle, destroying his chariot and weapons, and severely injuring him, but due to this, he allows him to live and return to fight another day. But as a human being, Rama also proves vulnerable on occasion to his enemies. He is put to a deep sleep with Lakshmana by the ''nagapash'' of Indrajit, but they recover when Hanuman obtains the magical medicine according to Vibheesana's advice. In the grand finale of the battle, Rama engages Ravana, who through the devastation of losing his sons, his brothers and friends and millions of his warriors, arouses his awesome and magical powers and makes full use of the boons of Siva and Brahma, and the magical knowledge of warfare possessed by the greatest of rakshasas. Rama and Ravana compete fiercely, inflicting severe injuries on one another with the most powerful weapons that could destroy the universe. After a long and arduous battle, Rama successfully decapitates Ravana's central head, but an ugly head, symbolic of all of Ravana's evil powers arises in its place. After another long battle, Rama decapitates it, only to find another growing in its place. This cycle continues, and as darkness approaches, Ravana's magical powers increase in force. Vibheeshana, seeing this then tells Rama something vital. Ravana had obtained [[amrita]], the nectar of immortality, from the gods. Though he could not consume it, he nevertheless stored a vessel of it in his stomach. This amrit was causing his heads to regenerate as soon as they were cut off. Upon the advice of [[Agastya]], Rama worships Lord [[Surya|Aditya]], the Sun, with the famous ''[[Aditya Hridayam]]'' prayer and then invokes the most powerful weapon, the ''[[Brahmastra]]''. Rama fires the great arrow that enters Ravana's chest/stomach and destroys the store of amrit, finally killing him.&lt;ref&gt;R. Menon, ''The Ramayana'', pp. 482–84&lt;/ref&gt; Following Ravana's death, Rama is immediately compassionate. After investing Vibheeshana as the next king of Lanka, he asks the new king and the surviving rakshasas to properly cremate their dead king, who he acknowledges was a great being worthy of respect and admiration, despite his patronage of evil.&lt;ref&gt;R. Menon, ''The Ramayana'', pp. 488–89&lt;/ref&gt; ==Rama Rajya== [[File:Rama-Sita coronation.jpg|thumb|Coronation of Rama with Sita (center on the throne), surrounded by his brothers and other deities including Hanuman (bottom left)]] The end of the war coincides with the end of Rama's tenure of exile. Flying home on the ''[[Pushpaka Vimana]]'', Rama returns to a joyous Ayodhya. His mothers, brothers and the people joyously welcome him. Kaikeyi is repentant of her deeds, and Rama forgives her. The next day, Rama is invested as the King of Ayodhya, and Emperor of the World. Although he first asks Lakshmana to become the ''yuvaraja'', upon the advice of Lakshmana he invests the position to Bharata, who has had fourteen years of experience as the ruler of Ayodhya. Rama performs the holy ''[[Ashwamedha]]'' sacrifice, purifying and establishing religion across earth.&lt;ref&gt;R. Menon, ''The Ramayana'', pp. 645&lt;/ref&gt; Beyond the ''Ramayana'', the eleven thousand years of Rama's rule over the earth represent to millions of modern Indians a time and age when God as a man ruled the world. There was perfect justice and freedom, peace and prosperity. There are no natural disasters, diseases, ailments or ill-fortune of any nature for any living being. There are no sins committed in the world by any of his people. Always attentive and accessible to his people, Rama is worshipped and hailed by all – the very symbol of [[moksha]], the ultimate goal and destination of all life, and the best example of perfect character and human conduct, inspiring human beings for countless succeeding ages. Rama like other Indian kings went undercover every night to hear the pleas of his subjects and have a common man's perspective of his rule. During Rama's tenure as King, the people apparently had no locks on their doors as they feared no burglaries or other such misfortunes. ==International Influence== [[Image:Srisita ram laxman hanuman manor.JPG|300px|left|thumb|Deities of Sri Sri Sita (far right), Rama (center), Lakshmana (far left) and Hanuman (below seated) at [[Bhaktivedanta Manor]], a temple in Watford [[England]]]] Be it as a manifestation of God or simply as a legendary hero of myths and folktales, Rama is an immensely revered and inspirational figure to people across the Indian subcontinent and South East Asia, as well as increasingly across Western civilization, where the Hindu epics and values are gaining recognition and popularity. In [[Jainism]], Rama is enumerated among the nine white ''Balas''. Rama is a great hero to the adherents of [[Agama Hindu Dharma]] and to the [[Muslims]] who practice [[Abangan]], a syncretic form of [[Islam]] and [[Hinduism]], in [[Indonesia]]. He is revered by the people throughout [[Indochina]] who otherwise adhere to different forms of [[Buddhism]], [[Islam]] and [[Hinduism]]. His regal bearing and fighting prowess is emulated in various [[Indian martial arts]] which in turn influenced various [[Southeast Asia]]n fighting systems such as [[Muay Thai]] and [[silat]]. The ''Rama Leela'' is performed across [[South East Asia]] in numerous local languages and the story has been the subject of art, architecture, music, folk dance and sculpture. The ancient city of [[Ayutthaya (city)|Ayutthaya]] stands in [[Thailand]], as the tribute of an ancient Thai kingdom to the great legend. Many ancient and medieval era kings of [[India]] and [[South East Asia]] have adopted ''Rama'' as their name. A [[Buddhist]] version of the tale is found in the [[Jataka]] stories, in the Dasharatha Jataka (Jataka Atthakatha 461) in the [[Pali]] vernacular. Here Rama is represented as a former life of the Buddha as a Bodhisatva and supreme Dharma King of great wisdom. In the Buddhist tale, he is the king of [[Varanasi]] and not [[Ayodhya]], which is traditionally the capital of [[Kosala]]. Reviewers linked the imagery of the blue-skinned [[Fictional universe in Avatar|Na'vi]] in [[James Cameron]]'s film ''[[Avatar (2009 film)|Avatar]]'' to Rama as one of their possible conceptual prototypes.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.cnngo.com/mumbai/play/avatar-hindu-perspective-961455 |title=The religious backdrop to James Cameron's 'Avatar' |accessdate=January 18, 2010|last=Wadhwani |first=Sita |date=December 24, 2009 |work=CNN Mumbai |publisher=Cable News Network Turner Broadcasting System, Inc }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=NewsToday&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.thenewstoday.info/2010/03/01/two.critiques.avatar.vis.a.vis.cinema.paradiso.html|title=Two Critiques: ‘Avatar’ vis-à-vis ‘Cinema Paradiso’|last=French|first=Zenaida B.|date=March 1, 2010|accessdate=March 5, 2010|work=The News Today}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.noozhawk.com/local_news/article/011610_tam_hunt/|title=‘Avatar,’ blue skin and the ground of being|date=January 16, 2010|accessdate=March 5, 2010|last=Hunt|first=Tam|work=NoozHawk}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Festivals=== {{main|Rama Navami}} {{see also|List of Hindu festivals}} Rama's day and time of birth, as well as marriage to Sita are celebrated by Hindus across the world as ''[[Rama Navami]]''. It falls on the ninth day of a Hindu lunar year, or ''Chaitra Masa Suklapaksha Navami''. This day is observed as the marriage day of Rama and Sita as well as the birthday of Rama. People normally perform ''Kalyanotsavam'' (''marriage celebration'') for small statues of Rama and Sita in their houses and at the end of the day the idols are taken in a procession on the streets. This day also marks the end of nine day utsavam called Vasanthothsavam (''Festival of Spring''), that starts with Ugadi. Some highlights of this day are: #''Kalyanam'' (Ceremonial wedding performed by temple priests) at [[Bhadrachalam]] on the banks of the river [[Godavari River|Godavari]] in [[Khammam]] district of [[Andhra Pradesh]]. #''Panakam'', a sweet drink prepared on this day with jaggery and pepper. #Procession of idols in the evening that is accompanied with play of water and colours. #For the occasion, Hindus are supposed to fast (or restrict themselves to a specific diet). #Temples are decorated and readings of the Ramayana take place. Along with Rama, people also pray to Sita, Lakshmana and Hanumana. The occasion of victory over Ravana and the rakshasas is celebrated as the 10-day ''[[Vijayadashami]]'', also known as ''[[Dussehra]]''. The ''Ram Leela'' is publicly performed in many villages, towns and cities in India. Rama's return to Ayodhya and his coronation are celebrated as ''[[Diwali]]'', also known as the ''Festival of Lights''. The latter two are the most important and popular festivals in India and for Hindus across the world. In [[Malaysia]], Diwali is known as ''Hari Deepavali'', and is celebrated during the seventh month of the Hindu solar calendar. It is a federal public holiday. In many respects it resembles the traditions followed in the Indian subcontinent. In [[Nepal]], Diwali is known as ''Tihar'' and celebrated during the October/November period. Here, though the festival is celebrated for five days, the traditions vary from those followed in India. On the first day, cows are worshipped and given offerings. On the second day, dogs are revered and offered special food. On the third day, celebrations follow the same pattern as in India, with lights and lamps and much social activity. On the fourth day Yama, the Lord of Death, is worshipped and appeased. On the fifth and final day, brothers sisters meet and exchange pleasantries. In [[Guyana]], Diwali is marked as a special occasion and celebrated with a lot of fanfare. It is observed as a national holiday in this part of the world and some ministers of the Government also take part in the celebrations publicly. ==Notes== {{reflist|2}} ==See also== *[[Genealogy of Rama]] *[[Ramacharitamanas]] *[[Vishnu]] ==References== *[http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/24869 Ramayana, translated in English by] [[Ralph T. H. Griffith|Griffith]], from [[Project Gutenberg]] *Vyas, R.T. (ed.) ''{{IAST|Vālmīki Rāmāyaṇa}}, Text as Constituted in its Critical Edition'', Oriental Institute, Vadodara, 1992. *[[Valmiki]], ''Ramayana'', Gita Press, Gorakhpur, India. *[[Ramesh Menon]], ''The Ramayana: A Modern Retelling of the Great Indian Epic'' [http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0865476608 ISBN 0865476608] *Devadutt Pattanaik, ''Indian Mythology: Tales, Symbols and Rituals from the Heart of the Subcontinent'' [http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0892818700 ISBN 0892818700] *[[Jonah Blank]], ''Arrow of the Blue-Skinned God: Retracing the Ramayana Through India'' [http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0802137334 ISBN 0802137334] ==External links== {{Commons category|Rama}} &lt;!--========================({{No More Links}})============================ | PLEASE BE CAUTIOUS IN ADDING MORE LINKS TO THIS ARTICLE. WIKIPEDIA | | IS NOT A COLLECTION OF LINKS NOR SHOULD IT BE USED FOR ADVERTISING. | | | | Excessive or inappropriate links WILL BE DELETED. | | See [[Wikipedia:External links]] &amp; [[Wikipedia:Spam]] for details. | | | | If there are already plentiful links, please propose additions or | | replacements on this article's discussion page, or submit your link | | to the relevant category at the Open Directory Project (dmoz.org) | | and link back to that category using the {{dmoz}} template. | =======================({{No More Links}})=============================--&gt; *[http://gitapress.org/Download_Eng_pdf.htm The Holy Lake of the Acts of Ram – Ramacharitamanasa (includes an English translation)] {{Ramayana}} {{HinduAvatars}} {{Hindu Culture and Epics}} [[Category:Vaishnavism]] [[Category:Ramayana]] [[Category:Forms of Vishnu]] [[Category:Titles and names of Krishna|Titles and names of Krishna]] [[Category:Characters in the Ramayana]] [[Category:Mythological kings]] [[Category:Sanskrit words and phrases]] [[als:Rama]] [[ar:راما]] [[bn:রাম]] [[br:Rama]] [[cs:Ráma]] [[da:Rama]] [[de:Rama (Religion)]] [[es:Rāma]] [[fa:راما]] [[fr:Rāma]] [[gu:રામ]] [[ko:라마 (신화)]] [[hi:श्रीराम]] [[hr:Rama (hinduizam)]] [[id:Rama]] [[it:Rama]] [[he:ראמה (אל)]] [[jv:Rama]] [[kn:ರಾಮ]] [[ka:რამა]] [[lt:Rama (mitologija)]] [[hu:Ráma]] [[ml:രാമൻ]] [[mr:राम]] [[nl:Rama]] [[ne:श्रीराम अवतार]] [[ja:ラーマ]] [[no:Rama]] [[nn:Rama]] [[pnb:رام]] [[pl:Rama (bóg)]] [[pt:Rama]] [[ro:Rama]] [[ru:Рама]] [[sa:राम]] [[simple:Rama]] [[sk:Ráma]] [[fi:Rama]] [[sv:Rama]] [[ta:இராமர்]] [[te:రామావతారము]] [[th:พระราม]] [[tr:Rama (avatar)]] [[uk:Рама]] [[ur:رام]] [[zh:羅摩]]</div></summary> <author><name>TFOWR</name></author> </entry> </feed>