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<!DOCTYPE html> <html class="client-nojs" lang="en" dir="ltr"> <head> <meta charset="UTF-8"/> <title>RationalWiki:Saloon bar - RationalWiki</title> <script>document.documentElement.className="client-js";RLCONF={"wgBreakFrames":!1,"wgSeparatorTransformTable":["",""],"wgDigitTransformTable":["",""],"wgDefaultDateFormat":"dmy","wgMonthNames":["","January","February","March","April","May","June","July","August","September","October","November","December"],"wgRequestId":"Z0T3r8Ltd8ig5I0oO18_mwAAAMU","wgCSPNonce":!1,"wgCanonicalNamespace":"Project","wgCanonicalSpecialPageName":!1,"wgNamespaceNumber":4,"wgPageName":"RationalWiki:Saloon_bar","wgTitle":"Saloon bar","wgCurRevisionId":2696839,"wgRevisionId":2696839,"wgArticleId":77683,"wgIsArticle":!0,"wgIsRedirect":!1,"wgAction":"view","wgUserName":null,"wgUserGroups":["*"],"wgCategories":["Pages using DynamicPageList parser tag","Noindexed pages","RationalWiki","Needs Goat","Booze"],"wgPageContentLanguage":"en","wgPageContentModel":"wikitext","wgRelevantPageName":"RationalWiki:Saloon_bar","wgRelevantArticleId":77683,"wgIsProbablyEditable":!1,"wgRelevantPageIsProbablyEditable": !1,"wgRestrictionEdit":["autoconfirmed"],"wgRestrictionMove":["sysop"],"wgMediaViewerOnClick":!0,"wgMediaViewerEnabledByDefault":!0,"wigo3MultiVoteId":"batman001"};RLSTATE={"site.styles":"ready","noscript":"ready","user.styles":"ready","user":"ready","user.options":"loading","ext.inputBox.styles":"ready","mediawiki.ui.input":"ready","mediawiki.ui.checkbox":"ready","skins.vector.styles.legacy":"ready","mediawiki.ui.button":"ready","mediawiki.toc.styles":"ready"};RLPAGEMODULES=["ext.wigo3.multi","site","mediawiki.page.startup","mediawiki.page.ready","mediawiki.toc","skins.vector.legacy.js","ext.gadget.ReferenceTooltips","mmv.head","mmv.bootstrap.autostart"];</script> <script>(RLQ=window.RLQ||[]).push(function(){mw.loader.implement("user.options@1hzgi",function($,jQuery,require,module){/*@nomin*/mw.user.tokens.set({"patrolToken":"+\\","watchToken":"+\\","csrfToken":"+\\"}); });});</script> <link rel="stylesheet" href="/w/load.php?lang=en&modules=ext.inputBox.styles%7Cmediawiki.toc.styles%7Cmediawiki.ui.button%2Ccheckbox%2Cinput%7Cskins.vector.styles.legacy&only=styles&skin=vector"/> <script async="" src="/w/load.php?lang=en&modules=startup&only=scripts&raw=1&skin=vector"></script> <meta name="ResourceLoaderDynamicStyles" content=""/> <link rel="stylesheet" href="/w/load.php?lang=en&modules=site.styles&only=styles&skin=vector"/> <meta name="generator" content="MediaWiki 1.35.6"/> <meta name="robots" content="noindex,follow"/> <meta name="description" content="Welcome, BoN
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id="contentSub2"></div> <div id="jump-to-nav"></div> <a class="mw-jump-link" href="#mw-head">Jump to navigation</a> <a class="mw-jump-link" href="#searchInput">Jump to search</a> <div id="mw-content-text" lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div class="mw-parser-output"><table class="rc_usefullinks" style="border:thin solid lightsteelblue; border-style:solid none; width:100%; text-align:center; margin-bottom:.5em;"> <tbody><tr> <td><a href="/wiki/RationalWiki:To_do_list" title="RationalWiki:To do list">To do list</a> • <a href="/wiki/RationalWiki:Vandal_catcher" title="RationalWiki:Vandal catcher">Vandal catcher</a> • <a href="/wiki/Category:Articles_needing_expansion" title="Category:Articles needing expansion">Stubs</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:NewPages" title="Special:NewPages">New pages</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:LonelyPages" title="Special:LonelyPages">Lonely pages</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:DeadendPages" title="Special:DeadendPages">Dead ends</a> • <a 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decoding="async" title="Saloon bar" width="400" height="126" srcset="/w/images/thumb/2/2f/SB1.jpg/600px-SB1.jpg 1.5x, /w/images/2/2f/SB1.jpg 2x" data-file-width="728" data-file-height="229" /> <div style="position:relative; top:-53px; left:5px"><a href="http://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Saloon_bar&action=edit&section=new" rel="nofollow"><img alt="WIGO Bar colour.png" src="/w/images/thumb/8/88/WIGO_Bar_colour.png/56px-WIGO_Bar_colour.png" decoding="async" width="56" height="56" srcset="/w/images/thumb/8/88/WIGO_Bar_colour.png/84px-WIGO_Bar_colour.png 1.5x, /w/images/thumb/8/88/WIGO_Bar_colour.png/112px-WIGO_Bar_colour.png 2x" data-file-width="172" data-file-height="173" /></a></div></div> <p>Welcome, <span class="myName">BoN</span><br /> This is a place for general chit-chat about virtually anything that doesn't fit anywhere else. <br /><sup><a href="/wiki/File:Spit.gif" class="image"><img alt="Spit.gif" src="/w/images/7/78/Spit.gif" decoding="async" width="35" 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align="right"><small><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://rationalwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Template:Bartop&action=edit">edit</a></small></div> </div></center> <table class="toc collapsible remembercollapse" id="saloonbar_forumlist" style="float:right; width:500px"> <tbody><tr> <td><center> <p><b><a href="/wiki/WIGO" title="WIGO">What is going on?</a></b> </p> <table style="background:transparent; width:auto;"> <tbody><tr style="font-size:75%;text-align:center;line-height:75%;"> <td><div id="wigonav-button-world" class="wigonav-button"><a href="/wiki/RationalWiki:What_is_going_on_in_the_world%3F" title="RationalWiki:What is going on in the world?">World</a></div> </td> <td><div id="wigonav-button-blog" class="wigonav-button"><a href="/wiki/RationalWiki:What_is_going_on_in_the_blogosphere%3F" title="RationalWiki:What is going on in the blogosphere?">Blogs</a></div> </td> <td><div id="wigonav-button-clog" class="wigonav-button"><a href="/wiki/RationalWiki:What_is_going_on_in_the_clogosphere%3F" title="RationalWiki:What is going on in the clogosphere?">Clogs</a></div> </td> <td><div id="wigonav-button-election" class="wigonav-button"><a href="/wiki/RationalWiki:What_is_going_on_with_the_elections%3F" title="RationalWiki:What is going on with the elections?">Elections</a></div> </td> <td><div id="wigonav-button-bar" class="wigonav-button"><a class="mw-selflink selflink">The Bar</a></div> </td></tr> <tr style="font-size:75%;text-align:center;line-height:75%;"> <td><a href="/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:What_is_going_on_in_the_world%3F" title="RationalWiki talk:What is going on in the world?">(talk)</a> </td> <td><a href="/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:What_is_going_on_in_the_blogosphere%3F" title="RationalWiki talk:What is going on in the blogosphere?">(talk)</a> </td> <td><a href="/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:What_is_going_on_in_the_clogosphere%3F" title="RationalWiki talk:What is going on in the clogosphere?">(talk)</a> </td> <td><a href="/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:What_is_going_on_with_the_elections%3F" title="RationalWiki talk:What is going on with the elections?">(talk)</a> </td> <td><a href="/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:Saloon_bar" title="RationalWiki talk:Saloon bar">(hic)</a> </td></tr></tbody></table> </center> <hr /> </td></tr> <tr> <td> <table class="collapsible" style="background: inherit;"> <tbody><tr> <th style="width: 490px"><a href="/wiki/RationalWiki:To_do_list/Pointless_polls" title="RationalWiki:To do list/Pointless polls">Pointless poll</a> </th></tr> <tr> <td> <p><i>Who was the best Batman?</i> </p> <table class="multivote" cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2" border="0"><tbody><tr> <td class="multioption" style="width:14em;"> <p> <span id="multibatman001-0">Lewis Wilson</span> </p> </td> <td class="multiresult" style="width:2em;"> <p> <span id="multibatman001-0-result">1</span> </p> </td> <td class="multibutton" style="padding-left:1em; padding-right:1em;"> <p> <a href="javascript:mediaWiki.multivote.send("multibatman001",0,12)" title="Click here to vote for this option">Vote</a> </p> </td> <td style="margin:0; padding:0;"> <div class="votecolumnback" style="border: 1px solid black; background:#F0F0F0; width:220px; height:1em;"> <div id="multibatman001-0-column" class="votecolumnfront" style="background:blue; width:0.79365079365079%; height:100%;"></div> </div> </td> </tr><tr> <td class="multioption" style="width:14em;"> <p> <span id="multibatman001-1">Robert Lowery</span> </p> </td> <td class="multiresult" style="width:2em;"> <p> <span id="multibatman001-1-result">0</span> </p> </td> <td class="multibutton" style="padding-left:1em; padding-right:1em;"> <p> <a href="javascript:mediaWiki.multivote.send("multibatman001",1,12)" title="Click here to vote for this option">Vote</a> </p> </td> <td style="margin:0; padding:0;"> <div class="votecolumnback" style="border: 1px solid black; background:#F0F0F0; width:220px; height:1em;"> <div id="multibatman001-1-column" class="votecolumnfront" style="background:blue; width:0%; height:100%;"></div> </div> </td> </tr><tr> <td class="multioption" style="width:14em;"> <p> <span id="multibatman001-2">Adam West</span> </p> </td> <td class="multiresult" style="width:2em;"> <p> <span id="multibatman001-2-result">35</span> </p> </td> <td class="multibutton" style="padding-left:1em; padding-right:1em;"> <p> <a href="javascript:mediaWiki.multivote.send("multibatman001",2,12)" title="Click here to vote for this option">Vote</a> </p> </td> <td style="margin:0; padding:0;"> <div class="votecolumnback" style="border: 1px solid black; background:#F0F0F0; width:220px; height:1em;"> <div id="multibatman001-2-column" class="votecolumnfront" style="background:blue; width:27.777777777778%; height:100%;"></div> </div> </td> </tr><tr> <td class="multioption" style="width:14em;"> <p> <span id="multibatman001-3">Michael Keaton</span> </p> </td> <td class="multiresult" style="width:2em;"> <p> <span id="multibatman001-3-result">7</span> </p> </td> <td class="multibutton" style="padding-left:1em; padding-right:1em;"> <p> <a href="javascript:mediaWiki.multivote.send("multibatman001",3,12)" title="Click here to vote for this option">Vote</a> </p> </td> <td style="margin:0; padding:0;"> <div class="votecolumnback" style="border: 1px solid black; background:#F0F0F0; width:220px; height:1em;"> <div id="multibatman001-3-column" class="votecolumnfront" style="background:blue; width:5.5555555555556%; height:100%;"></div> </div> </td> </tr><tr> <td class="multioption" style="width:14em;"> <p> <span id="multibatman001-4">Val Kilmer</span> </p> </td> <td class="multiresult" style="width:2em;"> <p> <span id="multibatman001-4-result">4</span> </p> </td> <td class="multibutton" style="padding-left:1em; padding-right:1em;"> <p> <a href="javascript:mediaWiki.multivote.send("multibatman001",4,12)" title="Click here to vote for this option">Vote</a> </p> </td> <td style="margin:0; padding:0;"> <div class="votecolumnback" style="border: 1px solid black; background:#F0F0F0; width:220px; height:1em;"> <div id="multibatman001-4-column" class="votecolumnfront" style="background:blue; width:3.1746031746032%; height:100%;"></div> </div> </td> </tr><tr> <td class="multioption" style="width:14em;"> <p> <span id="multibatman001-5">George Clooney</span> </p> </td> <td class="multiresult" style="width:2em;"> <p> <span id="multibatman001-5-result">2</span> </p> </td> <td class="multibutton" style="padding-left:1em; padding-right:1em;"> <p> <a href="javascript:mediaWiki.multivote.send("multibatman001",5,12)" title="Click here to vote for this option">Vote</a> </p> </td> <td style="margin:0; padding:0;"> <div class="votecolumnback" style="border: 1px solid black; background:#F0F0F0; width:220px; height:1em;"> <div id="multibatman001-5-column" class="votecolumnfront" style="background:blue; width:1.5873015873016%; height:100%;"></div> </div> </td> </tr><tr> <td class="multioption" style="width:14em;"> <p> <span id="multibatman001-6">Kevin Conroy</span> </p> </td> <td class="multiresult" style="width:2em;"> <p> <span id="multibatman001-6-result">27</span> </p> </td> <td class="multibutton" style="padding-left:1em; padding-right:1em;"> <p> <a href="javascript:mediaWiki.multivote.send("multibatman001",6,12)" title="Click here to vote for this option">Vote</a> </p> </td> <td style="margin:0; padding:0;"> <div class="votecolumnback" style="border: 1px solid black; background:#F0F0F0; width:220px; height:1em;"> <div id="multibatman001-6-column" class="votecolumnfront" style="background:blue; width:21.428571428571%; height:100%;"></div> </div> </td> </tr><tr> <td class="multioption" style="width:14em;"> <p> <span id="multibatman001-7">Will Arnett</span> </p> </td> <td class="multiresult" style="width:2em;"> <p> <span id="multibatman001-7-result">2</span> </p> </td> <td class="multibutton" style="padding-left:1em; padding-right:1em;"> <p> <a href="javascript:mediaWiki.multivote.send("multibatman001",7,12)" title="Click here to vote for this option">Vote</a> </p> </td> <td style="margin:0; padding:0;"> <div class="votecolumnback" style="border: 1px solid black; background:#F0F0F0; width:220px; height:1em;"> <div id="multibatman001-7-column" class="votecolumnfront" style="background:blue; width:1.5873015873016%; height:100%;"></div> </div> </td> </tr><tr> <td class="multioption" style="width:14em;"> <p> <span id="multibatman001-8">Christian Bale</span> </p> </td> <td class="multiresult" style="width:2em;"> <p> <span id="multibatman001-8-result">24</span> </p> </td> <td class="multibutton" style="padding-left:1em; padding-right:1em;"> <p> <a href="javascript:mediaWiki.multivote.send("multibatman001",8,12)" title="Click here to vote for this option">Vote</a> </p> </td> <td style="margin:0; padding:0;"> <div class="votecolumnback" style="border: 1px solid black; background:#F0F0F0; width:220px; height:1em;"> <div id="multibatman001-8-column" class="votecolumnfront" style="background:blue; width:19.047619047619%; height:100%;"></div> </div> </td> </tr><tr> <td class="multioption" style="width:14em;"> <p> <span id="multibatman001-9">Ben Affleck</span> </p> </td> <td class="multiresult" style="width:2em;"> <p> <span id="multibatman001-9-result">1</span> </p> </td> <td class="multibutton" style="padding-left:1em; padding-right:1em;"> <p> <a href="javascript:mediaWiki.multivote.send("multibatman001",9,12)" title="Click here to vote for this option">Vote</a> </p> </td> <td style="margin:0; padding:0;"> <div class="votecolumnback" style="border: 1px solid black; background:#F0F0F0; width:220px; height:1em;"> <div id="multibatman001-9-column" class="votecolumnfront" style="background:blue; width:0.79365079365079%; height:100%;"></div> </div> </td> </tr><tr> <td class="multioption" style="width:14em;"> <p> <span id="multibatman001-10">Robert Pattinson</span> </p> </td> <td class="multiresult" style="width:2em;"> <p> <span id="multibatman001-10-result">3</span> </p> </td> <td class="multibutton" style="padding-left:1em; padding-right:1em;"> <p> <a href="javascript:mediaWiki.multivote.send("multibatman001",10,12)" title="Click here to vote for this option">Vote</a> </p> </td> <td style="margin:0; padding:0;"> <div class="votecolumnback" style="border: 1px solid black; background:#F0F0F0; width:220px; height:1em;"> <div id="multibatman001-10-column" class="votecolumnfront" style="background:blue; width:2.3809523809524%; height:100%;"></div> </div> </td> </tr><tr> <td class="multioption" style="width:14em;"> <p> <span id="multibatman001-11">Batty McBatface</span> </p> </td> <td class="multiresult" style="width:2em;"> <p> <span id="multibatman001-11-result">20</span> </p> </td> <td class="multibutton" style="padding-left:1em; padding-right:1em;"> <p> <a href="javascript:mediaWiki.multivote.send("multibatman001",11,12)" title="Click here to vote for this option">Vote</a> </p> </td> <td style="margin:0; padding:0;"> <div class="votecolumnback" style="border: 1px solid black; background:#F0F0F0; width:220px; height:1em;"> <div id="multibatman001-11-column" class="votecolumnfront" style="background:blue; width:15.873015873016%; height:100%;"></div> </div> </td> </tr></tbody></table> </td></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr> <tr> <th><b><a href="/wiki/RationalWiki:To_do_list" title="RationalWiki:To do list">To do list</a></b> </th></tr></tbody></table> <div id="toc" class="toc" role="navigation" aria-labelledby="mw-toc-heading"><input type="checkbox" role="button" id="toctogglecheckbox" class="toctogglecheckbox" style="display:none" /><div class="toctitle" lang="en" dir="ltr"><h2 id="mw-toc-heading">Contents</h2><span class="toctogglespan"><label class="toctogglelabel" for="toctogglecheckbox"></label></span></div> <ul> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-1"><a href="#Gavin_Newsom"><span class="tocnumber">1</span> <span class="toctext">Gavin Newsom</span></a> <ul> <li class="toclevel-2 tocsection-2"><a href="#Immigration.3F"><span class="tocnumber">1.1</span> <span class="toctext">Immigration?</span></a></li> </ul> </li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-3"><a href="#Can_anyone_identify_where_this_image_was_taken.3F_.2F_location_of_place_.28bar_or_diner.29_in_photo"><span class="tocnumber">2</span> <span class="toctext">Can anyone identify where this image was taken? / location of place (bar or diner) in photo</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-4"><a href="#Artifacts_and_trash"><span class="tocnumber">3</span> <span class="toctext">Artifacts and trash</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-5"><a href="#Recent_WIGO_Post:_Trump_compiling_list_of_military_officers_for_court-martial"><span class="tocnumber">4</span> <span class="toctext">Recent WIGO Post: Trump compiling list of military officers for court-martial</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-6"><a href="#A_humble_prediction."><span class="tocnumber">5</span> <span class="toctext">A humble prediction.</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-7"><a href="#My_Idea_for_the_Children_at_Thanksgiving"><span class="tocnumber">6</span> <span class="toctext">My Idea for the Children at Thanksgiving</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-8"><a href="#GradeAUnderA_is_a_Trump_supporter_now"><span class="tocnumber">7</span> <span class="toctext">GradeAUnderA is a Trump supporter now</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-9"><a href="#The_atmosphere_and_the_Flood"><span class="tocnumber">8</span> <span class="toctext">The atmosphere and the Flood</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-10"><a href="#New_drinking_game_idea_.28I_have_not_been_here_for_a_while.29"><span class="tocnumber">9</span> <span class="toctext">New drinking game idea (I have not been here for a while)</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-11"><a href="#The_plot_of_the_Bolsonaro_saga_thickens"><span class="tocnumber">10</span> <span class="toctext">The plot of the Bolsonaro saga thickens</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-12"><a href="#oh_sick.2C_i_can_edit_this_now"><span class="tocnumber">11</span> <span class="toctext">oh sick, i can edit this now</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-13"><a href="#Russia_fires_Ballistic_Missile"><span class="tocnumber">12</span> <span class="toctext">Russia fires Ballistic Missile</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-14"><a href="#61_years"><span class="tocnumber">13</span> <span class="toctext">61 years</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-15"><a href="#Shrooms_and_Ethics_in_Bodycam_Journalism"><span class="tocnumber">14</span> <span class="toctext">Shrooms and Ethics in Bodycam Journalism</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-16"><a href="#I_am_taking_a_Crack_at_learning_Biblical_Greek_again."><span class="tocnumber">15</span> <span class="toctext">I am taking a Crack at learning Biblical Greek again.</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-17"><a href="#Thought_Experiment:_Vienna_Convention_DUI_Plate"><span class="tocnumber">16</span> <span class="toctext">Thought Experiment: Vienna Convention DUI Plate</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-18"><a href="#They_gathered_up_this_country.2C_sold_it_to_the_devil.2C_and_now_it.27s_going_to_hell.2C_and_they_wonder_how._.28Excerpt_from_this_song.29"><span class="tocnumber">17</span> <span class="toctext">They gathered up this country, sold it to the devil, and now it's going to hell, and they wonder how. (Excerpt from this song)</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-19"><a href="#Recent_elections.2C_to_what_extent_is_it_all_about_global_economics.3F"><span class="tocnumber">18</span> <span class="toctext">Recent elections, to what extent is it all about global economics?</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-20"><a href="#Reddit_problems"><span class="tocnumber">19</span> <span class="toctext">Reddit problems</span></a></li> </ul> </div> <div style="float: left;"><div class="secondary-link-colour-scheme" style="clear: right; float: right; width: 250px; overflow:auto; max-height: none; border: ridge #663300 10px; margin:10px; padding: 10px; spacing: 0px; background: #101010; text-align: left; font-family: Comic Sans MS, Chalkduster; color: white; font-size: 100%;"> <center><big><b>Dear Patrons! Your feedback is always appreciated.</b></big></center> <ul><li>- There are no pages marked for deletion</li> <li>- and <b>1 page</b> <a href="/wiki/RationalWiki:Articles_for_demotion" title="RationalWiki:Articles for demotion">marked for demotion</a>. </li></ul> </div></div> <div style="clear:both"></div> <h2><span class="mw-headline" id="Gavin_Newsom">Gavin Newsom</span></h2> <p>Looks like Gavin Newsom's star is going to be on the rise if there's still a functioning democracy in 2 to 4 years.<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/democrats-can-find-their-own-trump-in-gavin-newsom-19907712.php">[1]</a> </p> <table style="margin: auto; border-collapse:collapse; border-style:none; background-color:transparent;" class="cquote"> <tbody><tr> <td><div style="padding:4px 50px;position:relative;"><span style="position:absolute;left:10px;top:-6px;z-index:1;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;font-weight:bold;color:#B2B7F2;font-size:36px">“</span><span style="position:absolute;right:10px;bottom:-20px;z-index:1;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;font-weight:bold;color:#B2B7F2;font-size:36px">”</span>As a Californian, Newsom is an evil psychopathic demon who feeds on the blood of Republicans. I despise everything about him and cannot wait for the day I get to vote for him as president. He may be a psycho but he's our psycho.</div> </td></tr> <tr> <td style="padding:4px 10px 8px;font-size:smaller;line-height:1.6em;text-align:right;"><cite style="font-style:normal;position:relative;z-index:2">—Seagull on the dead bird site<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://archive.is/JmJjh">[2]</a></cite> </td></tr></tbody></table> <p><a href="/wiki/User:Bongolian" title="User:Bongolian">Bongolian</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bongolian" title="User talk:Bongolian">talk</a>) 20:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>I don’t think he’s a good idea. California shifted significantly right this year to due ongoing dissatisfaction with Democratic governance, and he has big “used car salesman” energy. <a href="/wiki/File:Pizza_SLICE.gif" class="image"><img alt="Pizza SLICE.gif" src="/w/images/thumb/3/37/Pizza_SLICE.gif/25px-Pizza_SLICE.gif" decoding="async" width="25" height="22" srcset="/w/images/thumb/3/37/Pizza_SLICE.gif/38px-Pizza_SLICE.gif 1.5x, /w/images/thumb/3/37/Pizza_SLICE.gif/50px-Pizza_SLICE.gif 2x" data-file-width="750" data-file-height="661" /></a><a href="/wiki/User:DuceMoosolini" title="User:DuceMoosolini"><span style="color:green"><b>Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano</b></span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:DuceMoosolini" title="User talk:DuceMoosolini"><span style="color:red"><sup><i>Make a Reservation</i></sup></span></a> 21:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>He also feeds on the blood of the homeless. <a href="/wiki/User:Carthage" title="User:Carthage">Carthage</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carthage" title="User talk:Carthage">talk</a>) 22:00, 12 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>For a comprehensive takedown, see <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.joshbarro.com/p/gavin-newsom-is-gross-and-embarrassing">this</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:The_Blade_of_the_Northern_Lights" title="User:The Blade of the Northern Lights">The Blade of the Northern Lights</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:The_Blade_of_the_Northern_Lights#top" title="User talk:The Blade of the Northern Lights"><span style="font-family: MS Mincho; color: black;">話して下さい</span></a>) 03:10, 14 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>"He's our son-of-a-bitch."<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://washingtonmonthly.com/2006/05/16/but-hes-our-son-of-a-bitch/">[3]</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Bongolian" title="User:Bongolian">Bongolian</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bongolian" title="User talk:Bongolian">talk</a>) 06:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Cutting against my laconic New England nature for a moment, I always appreciated the longer yet somehow more hilarious version from Lyndon Johnson about Hoover, "It's probably better to have him inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in". <a href="/wiki/User:The_Blade_of_the_Northern_Lights" title="User:The Blade of the Northern Lights">The Blade of the Northern Lights</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:The_Blade_of_the_Northern_Lights#top" title="User talk:The Blade of the Northern Lights"><span style="font-family: MS Mincho; color: black;">話して下さい</span></a>) 06:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>It is rather pathetic to see Democrats pimp out a guy who crushed a single-payer healthcare (after <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://calmatters.org/commentary/2022/01/newsom-single-payer-health-care/">pledging to back it</a>) and minimum-wage increase bill as "the guy to beat Trump" when a carbon-copy of that candidate just lost the fucking popular vote. He's as two-faced as Kamala, and just as much a representation of the corporate control of the Democratic Party that honestly needs to end. <a href="/wiki/User:Carthage" title="User:Carthage">Carthage</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carthage" title="User talk:Carthage">talk</a>) 21:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd> <dd>Immigration and "build the wall" is surprisingly popular across the US, in all likelihood it is the main issue that rocketed Trump to victory. You aren't going to win over moderates with one of the governors that's the face of amnesty. <a href="/wiki/User:CorruptUser" title="User:CorruptUser"><span style="color:teal"><b>Corrupt</b></span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:CorruptUser" title="User talk:CorruptUser"><span style="color:Cyan"><b>User</b></span></a> 20:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl> <h3><span id="Immigration?"></span><span class="mw-headline" id="Immigration.3F">Immigration?</span></h3> <p>There's nothing "moderate" about xenophobia and bigotry, which is in large part the fault of racist fearmongering in the media. Immigrants aren't delivering fentanyl over the border (the people doing that are Americans), they aren't eating your pets, and they're working the jobs no one else will, often in slave-like conditions. Those "moderate" bigots were never going to vote for Harris anyway, no matter how far to the right the Dems pivoted. And you can bet your ass they pivoted to the right on immigration. <a href="/wiki/User:Carthage" title="User:Carthage">Carthage</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carthage" title="User talk:Carthage">talk</a>) 20:48, 14 November 2024 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>"Don't let anyone in" actually IS the centrist position; the "far right" position on immigration is actually "invade and conquer the heathens". <a href="/wiki/User:CorruptUser" title="User:CorruptUser"><span style="color:teal"><b>Corrupt</b></span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:CorruptUser" title="User talk:CorruptUser"><span style="color:Cyan"><b>User</b></span></a> 21:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>The far-right position on immigration is "immigrants are coming to white countries to demographically replace our people, and this is why we should ban immigration from non-white countries." The actually moderate position on immigration is "we should expand legal pathways for citizenship, eliminate the incentives that make undocumented immigrants more desirable workers than citizens and legal residents, and invest in the development of countries that we see the most immigration from so that immigration itself isn't necessary for the people living in those countries to have a prosperous life." A complete ban on immigration is not by any means a sensible, or feasible, position. Just because an opinion is popular doesn't mean it's sensible or correct, and we shouldn't contribute to the mainstreaming of xenophobia by labeling these opinions as "moderate." They're not, they're just bigoted. <a href="/wiki/User:Carthage" title="User:Carthage">Carthage</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carthage" title="User talk:Carthage">talk</a>) 21:39, 14 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>I should probably note that "ban immigration" is already a far-right position. "Invade and conquer the heathens" is simply <i>further</i> right. <a href="/wiki/User:Carthage" title="User:Carthage">Carthage</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carthage" title="User talk:Carthage">talk</a>) 23:01, 14 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>So... what's the immigration policy of China? India? Brazil?</dd> <dd>Historically speaking, nations very rarely let in foreigners en masse, and if they did it was as second class citizens at best. That any significant number of people are welcoming to migrants is a historical anomaly. <a href="/wiki/User:CorruptUser" title="User:CorruptUser"><span style="color:teal"><b>Corrupt</b></span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:CorruptUser" title="User talk:CorruptUser"><span style="color:Cyan"><b>User</b></span></a> 07:29, 15 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>If the best you got is "well other countries don't have open immigration systems like the US" (and we <i>don't</i> have that. In fact, the Biden administration has <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.reuters.com/graphics/USA-ELECTION/MIGRATION-DEPORTATIONS/akpeoeoerpr/">deported far more people than Trump,</a> which is a dubious honor to be sure. Deportations tear apart families, and most often the guys who end up getting deported are just guys who got busted for having a small amount of weed on them or for going a few miles over the speed limit. Bonus points for racial profiling.) then you've already lost. You've offered no real reasons for <i>why</i> immigration is such a bad thing. It built this country. Part of this country's founding mythology is that the US is a shining beacon on the hill, welcoming all comers. "Bring me your poor, tired, huddled masses." And before you say that immigrants commit more crime than native-born citizens, that's <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/undocumented-immigrant-offending-rate-lower-us-born-citizen-rate">bullshit</a>. Immigrants are also necessary to have a functioning economy, they do the jobs nobody else will, often under harsh, slave-like conditions. And they absolutely pay taxes. Fact of the matter is, anti-immigrant sentiment in this country is born out of harmful misinformation. And about China, it's not the US currently undergoing a severe demographic decline (not to the same extent, anyways, and we can thank immigration for that). That's China. Their demographic crisis would be very much mitigated if they started letting more immigrants in. <a href="/wiki/User:Carthage" title="User:Carthage">Carthage</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carthage" title="User talk:Carthage">talk</a>) 09:07, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd> <dd>This is one of those things I simply don't get about the American 'left' as well as personally pisses me off.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>If you're going to have an immigration policy which isn't utterly 'open doors, ask no questions' you are going to need an <i>some</i> kind of border service, to process applicants and to stop folks simply crossing the border undocumented. Outside of asylum cases [which the country is legally bound to process with a modicum of competence, compassion and speed] and those believed to be citizens the country has zero <i>obligation</i> to accept anyone - every country in the world is permitted by both law and convention to have immigration/visitor criteria, to control their borders and lastly, to deport those within the country believed to not be here legally. 'Guys getting deported for speeding' is in fact <i>two</i> differing situations;</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>a) Guy busted speeding was an undocumented visitor, thus the crime led to them being spotted, arrested and deported.</dd> <dd>b) Guy busted speeding was a documented visitor, thus the crime led their residency/visitor status being revoked and then deported.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Hardliners would argue that both 'deserve' deportation, while a more generous person would accept that for b) the punishment is disproportionate. <i>This is a discussion regarding the legal standards documented visitors are held to</i>. To argue that a) doesn't lead to deportation is to basically argue that once you've cleared the border service, you're in forever, while '[country] needs immigration' is a different discussion to this one, which is <i>what should the state do when undocumented visitors are discovered within the country</i>.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>I am not au fiat with the particulars of the American position, but through the prism of British experience [esp with the last Tory Govts] is to ask - what is the state of <i>legal</i> systems, such as guest worker programmes, talent visas, family residency rules, claiming asylum and then finally, the route to settled status/citizenship. <i>This</i> the the zone where we discuss the relative needs of the country's industry for foreign labour, the historical foundation for immigration [while the UK is traditionally an emigration point, we've also long been a immigration point too from the Irish to Hong Kongers] and how we integrate said folks into our societies. And in this, Corrupt is correct; as 'settler nations' America's historical 'open door, no questions' policy has been an historical anomaly globally, and if I remember right a policy which closed just after WW1 [and was never properly open in the first place, what with the de facto bans on nonwhite groups like the Chinese]. I would go further in this; that there is a wealth of information now of 'how <i>not</i> to do' immigration - and one of the key positions is [in my book] 'don't allow foreign groups to effectively colonise particular towns/cities to the point the natives feel utterly overwhelmed with no personal benefit'.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Now on the 'immigrants and crime' issue. Moving to another country is in many ways the firmest 'clean break' a person can do; a land where not only does 'nobody know your name' but the new authorities traditionally don't either. This is beneficial for many innocent reasons - for example, many Brits making the crossing <i>liked</i> the relative lack of a class system which 'pegged your position in life' they found in America. But you know who else likes clean slates? Career criminals. To quote Terry Pratchett's <i>Night Watch</i>; the best place to be a crook is the place nobody knows you are a crook. Plus, some of these folks <i>will</i> be on the run from the authorities 'back home' and shall also work to try to avoid getting attention so nobody puts two and two together; this was a problem with America back with the Mafia in the 1900s, so it's not new [or just American; here in the UK one of the major foreign/ethnic crime groups has been Albanian, and while some of the smuggled people were trafficked sex slaves and drug labourers some were also 'criminal importation' to expand their British businesses].</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>This is partly why the 'bring me your poor, tired, huddled masses' argument falls down. It's utterly tone-deaf to the above problem, because it denies it exists period. I'm willing to bet a fiver that it's no way as common as public perception thinks and there's an element of xenophobia/racism about it but it <i>is</i> an issue and it does concern a decent % of people. It's one of the reasons Trump [and earlier the Tories here] <i>won</i>; they promised 'to do something about this' and part of their pitch was 'the left have no policy, just let everyone in'. <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 13:57, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>I will note that your 'clean break' argument entirely relies on a disconnect of communication and coordination between authorities across the border. With proper communication/coordination I don't see how freely crossing the border to America could possibly be more of a 'clean break' than freely crossing state lines. Perhaps you are misplacing blame?</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Also, you say that an "open borders" policy is a historical anomaly, but I'd love to see your sources for this. From what I read, it was actually really common among nations in the pre-WWI era. It wasn't just America. E.g. take a look at <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.weforum.org/stories/2014/06/open-borders-ww1s-forgotten-casualty/">this</a> article I found.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><i>"[... ] to basically argue that once you've cleared the border service, you're in forever"</i>. The issue is of ethical nature. Sure, nations have legal frameworks and an existing convention to deport undocumented immigrants. The issue is that when these undocumented immigrants make a life for themselves inside the country we're forced to grapple with quite literally ruining their new life for themselves. I don't find that tenable, especially concerning families. Laws are <i>tools</i> that we use to facilitate the functioning of society in the ways that we want it to act. Do we really want a society that does this to people? Is there truly no better policy? What some see as unequal legal treatment, I see as an ethical practicality.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Finally, I'm not sure who you're arguing against. You seem to be making an argument just to tear it down? Who is "the left" here?</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>I suppose I can choose to be a stand-in, though. I'd argue that we (America in particular) should have as open borders as possible. Screening for criminals and providing documents is just about the only restriction I'd really argue for. I'm not very sympathetic to people who get concerned when their communities have high-levels of immigration, except for logistical issues irt housing and services. But to me those logistical issues are a failure of our society and not necessarily an intrinsic drawback of immigration. As for undocumented immigrants who make it past border control, I personally see no reason why they cannot simply go through processing while still being in the country. Deportation is insanely expensive, anyways, and takes about $11k per immigrant. It's horribly punitive and inefficient to have this process as it is.<a href="/wiki/User:Sciraven" title="User:Sciraven">Sciraven</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sciraven" title="User talk:Sciraven">talk</a>) 16:18, 19 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>- Not sure why you think I don't believe border agencies etc don't talk to their counterparts - if they don't, they very well should. One of the few reasonable things the old Tory Govt did here in the UK, for example was signing an agreement with Albania which allowed us to, amongst other things cross-check applications with their criminal records and deport convicted criminals easily. But there's always going to be cases where County X either can't or won't sign such an agreement [and for decent reasons too, such as 'believing counterpart to be utterly corrupt'.]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>- Historical 'open door, no questions' has been a lot more of a historical anomaly globally than you think. Most European empires controlled [sometimes quite strictly] who and who couldn't settle there, English/British North America being perhaps the only exception to this [partly because said colonisation efforts were basically left down to private enterprise] and said countries often had certain requirements you had to fill so you could settle [for example, to settle in Hapsburg Spain or Bourbon France being Catholic was mandatory]. Even the famed Ellis Island [open 1891] was partly there so American officials <i>could</i> ask questions. You are right that this relatively 'open door world' died with WW1, and I would go further to say the door was finally 'fully closed' in the 1960s when Euro nations such as UK and France started to severely restrict access to former colonies and nations like W Germany ended their 'guest workers' schemes.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>- On your 'deporting undocumented migrants hurts families [and that is wrong]' point, that is an untenbale position to have. If you agree you shall never deport 'because it hurts people', you might as well simply abolish the whole immigration system. What about foreign born criminals? Don't they have families too? That is utterly politically untenable position. You talk of ethics; what about those immigrants who <i>did</i> go through the legal channels, doing everything which was asked of them? Is that then fair for them to see <i>following the rules</i> had no ultimate effect because the ones who didn't follow them got away with it? Justice must be seen to be done otherwise folks won't believe in it.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>- There are downsides to having open-door immigration policies, and beyond the simple fact of provision of services etc. As pointed out above, one of the key problems is that in nations like the UK and USA, we have whole swathes of the economy hooked to cheap, casualised and <i>disposable</i> labour, much of it immigrant in origin. And before you trot out the usual neolib line of 'it's good for the economy', I actually suspect it isn't - that while it increases raw GDP it doesn't increase GDP <i>per capita</i> because all you're doing is throwing more labour at the economy, not actually making the current labour more productive. There is also the issues of social cohesion; one of the biggest failures of multiculturalism was to expect 'both sides' to intragrate of their own accord, with most of the running <i>expected</i> from the host communities. Why should the latter have to suck it all up, do all the 'changing' with zero official support? What's the 'ethics' in that? The locals of my HomeSmallTown never <i>asked</i> for the thousands of foreigners to come there, they never <i>saw</i> any benefits for themselves for the foreigners to come there and in fact at times saw 'the foreigners' getting extra help they didn't.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>The issue is, obviously that the HomeSmallTowners are all <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://mikefrost.net/people-somewhere-vs-people-anywhere/">'Somewheres'; people who are fairly parochial in scope and geographically 'anchored', while the folks bigging up the Others coming in [often to make their own Somewhere in an <i>existing</i> Somewhere] are usually 'Anywheres' - folk who feel more 'citizens of the world' and geographically footloose</a>. Narrower and wider views of 'Us' and 'Them', deeper or shallower rivers between the two groups. It's why the Anywheres feel that Somewhere is clannish and insular while Somewheres think Anywhere is cold and unsupportive - something you can feel in small towns which have been partly 'colonised' by commuter Anywheres from larger settlements ['it's folks like you which mean my kid can't afford no place to live' etc].</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>In fact, part of me suspects that 'Anywheres' like mass immigration because they don't really have to deal with the costs of it [that is paid by the Somewheres]. Well, the American 'Somewheres' got their revenge; they elected Trump <i>twice</i>. Enjoy! <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 15:50, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><i>"Not sure why you think I don't believe border agencies etc don't talk to their counterparts"</i>. The point you missed that I was making is that with sufficient coordination between agencies across nations, a criminal escaping across the border should be no more untenable than a criminal escaping across state lines in the U.S.. Ergo, if I assume you think the state of free travel within America is tenable (and I must assume so; to do otherwise is absurd to me) then your problem lies squarely in whatever distinctions in these borders can obscure a criminal's background. That would be a lack of coordination and/or resources. There's nothing magical about the U.S. Mexico border that lets criminals throw away their past. Borders are legal structures, they have no material reality.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>"<i>If you agree you shall never deport 'because it hurts people'</i>". I'm trying to figure out where I went wrong with my argument such that you immediately assume I'm using some contrived rule-based argument about harm for deportation. I thought the insinuation of utilitarianism was clear. The insinuated question is: what benefit do we get from deporting people that outweighs the human cost of it? Not to mention the insane monetary expense of deportation, to begin with. Furthermore the argument you make about it not being "fair" to people who legally crossed the border is contrived to me. Logically following from my point, you're effectively saying that that "fairness" is so important as to be worth deconstructing innocent lives and spending tens of thousands of dollars per person. All so that, what, we get the relief of knowing we held people consistently to an arbitrary standard? How the fuck is <i>that</i> fair? How is that <i>possibly</i> ethical? That's what's so untenable to me. That's why I call my position an ethical practicality.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>"<i>And before you trot out the usual neolib line of 'it's good for the economy', I actually suspect it isn't</i>". Uh, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to react to this. We have evidence that strongly suggests it is, and all you're really giving me is "Well Maybe It Doesn't, Thought About That?". Like, sure, you're allowed to have a hypothesis it's not true. Fair enough. But "arguments" born of pure intuition are so commonplace I could flood my entire house with just the saliva that comes out when they're spoken. Genuinely, what the fuck am I supposed to do with this? Maybe there's a study on that precise hypothesis, and I'll go looking, but it sure as hell ain't productive to just throw away an evidenced-based theory for one with a lack of it just because it suits ya.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>"<i>Why should the latter have to suck it all up, do all the 'changing' with zero official support?</i>". Could you stop strawmanning me? Like JFC man not every position on open borders just thinks there is NO logistical issues socially whatsoever. Understandably, you're probably extrapolating this from my "lack of sympathy" I stated earlier. I should clarify because I sounded harsh. My lack of sympathy is squarely about xenophobia irt immigration in communities. E.g. when people get concerned simply because the people who come are <i>different culturally</i>, I don't give two shits. That's what I was trying to insinuate by talking about the logistical exceptions. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. Anyhow, I'm not suggesting no official support?? The fuck?? Beyond that, immigrants getting help when "[other people] don't" is something I see as a policy issue irt social safety nets not an issue with immigration. And beyond that, people who need the most help should get the most help, to me. Immigrants are not special in my mind? I don't know if you're claiming that of me, but it's kinda insinuated?</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>"<i>[S]omething you can feel in small towns which have been partly 'colonised' by commuter Anywheres from larger settlements</i>". I'm trying to mesh this point my head but the problem is that there is inconsistent evidence that immigration here in the U.S. has actually led materially to these negative sentiments in the same places where the immigration is taking place. I'd love to see some kind of empirical study on this. From case examples, it doesn't seem to hold up. Like the Haitians from Springfield Ohio, or in metropolitan areas like Los Angeles with undocumented immigrant populations. You can also expand this to larger geographical areas: California has some of the best pro-immigrant policies and most pro-immigrant sentiment and it's also the state with the largest amount of undocumented immigrants. We also know materially that a lot of disinfo helps fuel xenophobia - which is one of the strongest undercurrents of the recent calls for "mass deportation" and other such policies. With this kind of context, how am I to believe your claim is well-supported? What have you done to specifically isolate immigration as a factor?</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>"<i>Well, the American 'Somewheres' got their revenge; they elected Trump *twice*. Enjoy!</i>" Uhhh... no? One, Immigration wasn't the top issue in the exit polls we got among the demographics who swung Trump to victory (it was "The Economy", whatever the fuck that means in the scope of Trump's national sales tax on foreign goods, lmao). Two, the vast majority of immigrants settle in urban areas, not small towns. I'm not seeing much, if any, evidence that a lot of small towns in these swings states were swamped with immigrants, except perhaps a few in Arizona. Especially not in the Blue Wall states afaik. Have you seen any evidence to the contrary? From what I can see the facts of the matter don't support that narrative, my friend.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Anyhow, it'd be nice if you stopped treating me as if I had no critical thinking. A few of these arguments you're making are, from what I can gather, actually just propositions that you're not really tying to anything empirical (e.g. that one about the economic impact). And beyond that, the strawmanning is getting a little annoying. Maybe I'm just bad at communicating, but stretching my "look at the human cost of human deportation" to "you're saying you don't support any legal measure that could possibly hurt someone" is one hell of a convenient thing to do. <a href="/wiki/User:Sciraven" title="User:Sciraven">Sciraven</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sciraven" title="User talk:Sciraven">talk</a>) 21:03, 24 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>- On border coordination, you don't answer my point of 'the bodies you're coordinating with being incompetent, corrupt, malign or missing'. And you still need to have a border agency to exist, to ask questions and if/when needs be, stop folks from entering the country. Your 'inside the USA' argument is rot, because that is an internal 'free movement' zone, where every player is reasonably competent and trustworthy [similar to the Schengen Zone in the EU, which is in fact a better example].</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>- With deportation, you did say 'it was an ethical issue' and then talk about how uprooting them would hurt others? Gee, not sure how I could have mistaken that argument with a simple 'it would be too costly to remove them' one. Wow. I just said it. How is the argument about illegals stay scot-free pissing off the legal ones 'contrived'? It's totally natural; if I have to strive and struggle to get that card <i>legally</i> and then somebody else rocks up and despite having <i>not followed the rules</i> gets given that card too - where's the fairness in that? It's Frank Grimes vs Homer Simpson. You want a utilitarian argument? Here; 'the law must punish breakers and reward followers so public confidence in them is retained', because otherwise this whole show falls apart. Now, arguing what those rules should be is something completely different, and part of my argument is to have a strong border service so ultimately, a lot less deportations have to happen.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>- You want evidence. Here. <i>The overall conclusion from existing evidence is that immigration has very small impacts on GDP per capita, whether these impacts are positive or negative. This conclusion is in line with findings of studies of the economic impacts of immigration in other countries including the US</i> [<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldselect/ldeconaf/82/8206.htm">para 66, UK Lords report/meta-study</a>]. You've utterly ignored my point that 'simply throwing more bodies at a problem might improve raw <i>output</i>, but not <i>productivity'</i>, or the fact that I highlight not 'immigration' in general, but in particular very low paid occupations where the endless cheap labour is retarding productivity growth because bosses are simply 'hiring another cheapo immigrant' than investing in capital plant to do that job instead as well as suppressing wage growth in the un/semi-skilled occupations.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>- 'Xenophobia' has been the stock handwave away regarding all criticisms regarding immigration for decades, just like 'racism' has been used to silence critics of ghettoised ethnic groups who act like the rules the rest of us follow don't apply to them. If you simply 'let in as many as wish to come here in' and also allow them to go <i>where</i> they like in the land too, yes you will end up with the situation I outlined, and my argument rests mainly on the fact that's what happens now.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>- Immigration was an <i>major</i> issue, though not the top one. But don't take my word for it [I know you don't like that] - <i>Among Trump supporters, the economy (93%), immigration (82%) and violent crime (76%) are the leading issues.</i>, <i>About six-in-ten voters (61%) today say immigration is very important to their vote</i> [<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/09/09/issues-and-the-2024-election/">Pew Research, 9/9/24</a>]. Wasn't the top issue, but hell, why don't you go and tell those 61% it's nothing to worry about?</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>- 'not really tying to anything empirical'. That's because I thought this was a <i>discussion</i>, not a show that we fling papers and essays at each other and shove [citation needed] on every single thing without loads of backup. But I <i>can</i> do that if you'd like. So, on the 'local vs newcomers' divide I discussed which isn't real to you right now, behold it becoming real...</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://theconversation.com/why-do-small-rural-communities-often-shun-newcomers-even-when-they-need-them-199984">https://theconversation.com/why-do-small-rural-communities-often-shun-newcomers-even-when-they-need-them-199984</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://1043wowcountry.com/a-new-californian-living-in-idaho-slams-washingtonians-moving-here/">https://1043wowcountry.com/a-new-californian-living-in-idaho-slams-washingtonians-moving-here/</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://time.com/6992970/gentrification-small-towns-essay/">https://time.com/6992970/gentrification-small-towns-essay/</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/inside-the-welsh-village-where-english-speakers-arent-welcome/">https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/inside-the-welsh-village-where-english-speakers-arent-welcome/</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Note here, I was talking in <i>very</i> general terms; not simply about external immigrants [though they will get it harder because their 'Other' rating is often very high]. I spent part of my youth in Wales, and I shall tell you now there <i>was</i> a divide between 'the locals' [Welsh, poorer, often blue collar] and 'the English' [older, wealthier and often professionals] to the point the two groups barely mixed socially. The place I went to Uni to had a very modern 'town and gown' friction about it and I did also describe my SmallHomeTown too and point you towards the Somewhere/Anywhere article [if you'd bothered to read my comments below the one you replied to, that is]. However, it is an under-documented issue.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>- Oh, immigrants heading for small-town America not real either? Here; <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/12/11/249981976/a-midwestern-meatpacking-town-welcomes-immigrants">https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/12/11/249981976/a-midwestern-meatpacking-town-welcomes-immigrants</a> As noted elsewhere, immigrants [legal or not] dominate the American agricultural worker group, and last time I looked into agriculture [and related industries] it kinda happens well, out in the country and by smaller cities. And America has been having a rural drain for aeons now, meaning that the remaining locals get 'replacement vibes' as the only folks coming in are 'foreigners' to work at the processing plant or whatever. <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 22:52, 24 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>"'Xenophobia' has been the stock handwave away regarding all criticisms regarding immigration for decades." Except that anti-immigrant sentiment <i>does</i> have a large xenophobic/racist component to it. It's not people like Elon Musk who are gonna get deported, even though he was in this country for a while illegally. <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://globalextremism.org/post/american-renaissance-plans/">Neo-Nazis recognize that Trump's deportation scheme appeals to racists.</a> The bid to end birthright citizenship? Guess what that's appealing to. Racist fears about "<a href="/wiki/White_genocide" title="White genocide">white genocide</a>." The language used to describe immigrants? "Immigrants are poisoning the blood of this country." How is that <i>not</i> a racist statement? And what the fuck is this? "'Racism' has been used to silence critics of ghettoised ethnic groups who act like the rules the rest of us follow don't apply to them." Which, one: you realize "ghetto" is often used as a racist dogwhistle, right? Two: what the fuck are you talking about? That's a strawman right there for criticisms of systemic racism. It's inverting the actual criticism: "that there is a double standard in the American legal system, and it is a racist one." Black people are convicted much more harshly than white people. They receive, on average, longer sentences. It's people of color who are targeted by police to meet arrest quotas. <a href="/wiki/User:Carthage" title="User:Carthage">Carthage</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carthage" title="User talk:Carthage">talk</a>) 18:19, 25 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>The issue here is that I'm not aware of <i>anyone</i> on the "electable left" in America that has truly advocated "open borders". People like Biden and Harris certainly didn't. I Googled to check how Newsom is "the face of amnesty"... and honestly, I'm not finding much. I mean, yes, he <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://abcnews.go.com/Health/california-1st-state-offer-health-insurance-undocumented-immigrants/story?id=105986377">expanded health services to undocumented workers</a>, but he's also <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.politico.com/news/2024/09/06/newsom-california-undocumented-immigrants-homes-00177748">killed</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.insidehighered.com/news/government/state-policy/2024/09/24/newsom-vetoes-employing-undocumented-students-campuses">several</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.politico.com/news/2024/09/28/gavin-newsom-noncitizens-undocumented-workers-00181487">other</a> bills related to undocumented workers. The face of amnesty? Okay...</dd> <dd>So how is Newsom all of a sudden the face of amnesty? Two words: <a href="/wiki/Fox_News" title="Fox News">Republican propaganda</a>. The Republicans are great at the moment at coming up with "simple solutions for simple minds", especially on <a href="/wiki/Other" title="Other">Other</a> type issues... and also painting simple demagogues where Democrat politicians are The Cause Of Everything. As an example, Donald Trump's wall is a fucking ridiculous solution to illegal immigration in practical terms... very expensive, and in some cases (like the border at Big Bend National Park) impossible and pointless. But, if you disengage your brain and "think" only with base anger, this dumbfuck solution might actually sound quite good. I already see that the "conservative" propaganda networks took Newsom's little things, like that health care for undocumented workers bill, and blew it out of proportion.</dd> <dd>If the racist rubes had a brain, they'd figure out real quick that the <i>politicians</i> aren't the "face of amnesty"... it's the farmers, hotel and leisure industry, construction and others that employ undocumented labor... largely <i>in an already illegal manner</i>. Or, if not, using "workarounds" like the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-2B_visa" class="extiw" title="wp:H-2B visa" rel="nofollow"><span style="color:#477979 !important;" title="Wikipedia: H-2B visa">H-2B visa</span></a><sup><img alt="Wikipedia" src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/12px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png" decoding="async" width="12" height="12" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/18px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/24px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128" /></sup> (which I suspect will become more prominent in the future, gives "biz" an "out"). Beginning with <a href="/wiki/Arizona" class="mw-redirect" title="Arizona">Arizona</a> in the 2010s or so, there have been a few states that occasionally "crack down" on illegal immigration properly (namely, by holding employers accountable). Generally, the states have backed off real quick once they figure out that the illegal employing industries (which have a Republican lean, mind you) get hurt -- so even though laws remain "on the books", they are poorly enforced. Also, let's face it -- the prices of things like hotels and veggies are going to go up if illegal immigration was <i>truly</i> cracked down on. Do the rubes that complained about this year's inflation even know that?</dd> <dd>By and large, I see the "issue" of illegal immigration in this country as a dog and pony show more than anything else. As long as employers are using them... it will happen. And as long as the rubes don't understand the full scope of illegal immigration... the Republicans will find it as a useful tool to get people mad. So it goes. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:BobJohnson&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:BobJohnson (page does not exist)">BobJohnson</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BobJohnson" title="User talk:BobJohnson">talk</a>) 14:34, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd> <dd>Agreed, a lot of this is utterly confected and yes, a lot of this could be solved with a more 'defence in depth' situation than a literal 'wall' spanning every metre of the border [rule of thumb tells me you close one route another simply pops up elsewhere]. However, one thing I have learned from British experience is that what 'the left' [or more correctly, the centre] all so often fail to do is to what I call 'reasonable potted replies' to the right-wing BS. This is why, for example I've long felt that in the UK Labour should have said the line 'firm but fair' every time asylum came up as an issue ['we will always help those in genuine need, but we won't be a soft touch either'] to counter-jam the lies. I've seen Carthage's argument about criminal immigrants deployed and fall on it's arse in real-life; all the opponent has to do is find a single well-known exception to 'prove it is wrong'. My argument neuters this defence by accepting that the 'is a criminal' and 'is an immigrant' venn circles do have <i>some</i> overlap and it's perfectly reasonable to argue then, 'well we don't want <i>those</i> people, do we?'.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Perhaps I'm getting more cynical as I age, but it's got to the stage that instead of arguing 'this is a manufactroversy' to the eternally obtuse until you pass out is to simply trot out some glib soundbites and a bit of security theatre to 'assure' them 'we have heard you and are doing shit to sort it out' [all the while ideally sorting out the more knotty/nuanced issues behind the issue, which normally you don't get thanked for]. <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 15:41, 15 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>I certainly agree with that unfortunately. The nuts and bolts wonk stuff, while more the reality of what is going on, is not for the masses that casually tune into politics (if they do at all). On immigration, I actually think that the more progressive end of the Democrats could hype up a "boogeyman" themselves if they wanted to emphasize the Big Business role. (People tend to not like Big Business, though everyone uses it.) Beyond that, I think that finding an acceptable "mass market" slogan/soundbite for the Democrat side is more challenging -- while currently most are not full open borders, they have more "little things" like Newsom's health bill, and nuance is hard to communicate with a sound bite (and easy to counter with simple fear). You might not need one -- good political communicators like <a href="/wiki/Barack_Obama" title="Barack Obama">Barack Obama</a> didn't necessarily need them. But exceptionally skilled political communicators are rare.</dd> <dd>One other caveat: I do think that many of the "racist rubes" actually change their tune quite a bit when it comes to labor with greater skillset. Immigrant doctors and engineers (or even plumbers, electricians, and welders!) seem to arouse far less ire among the masses. Again, however, nothing that I can think of a "mass market" slogan for. But it is something to shape policy over. Most immigration policies worldwide (the United States included) are *much* more friendly to those who have learned a trade. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:BobJohnson&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:BobJohnson (page does not exist)">BobJohnson</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BobJohnson" title="User talk:BobJohnson">talk</a>) 16:10, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd> <dd>'The builders and strivers will always be welcome to our [COUNTRY NAME]?' And yes, a decent % of the anti-immigration rhetoric is a map/territory issue; that when the centrist-capitalist ruling classes look at macro stats like unemployment rates and GDP growth while the anti-immigrants look at the micro, like the fact low-wage jobs have lost purchasing power and big businesses <i>have</i> used migrant labour to depress wages [which folks like <a href="/wiki/Howard_Zinn" title="Howard Zinn">Zinn</a> noted in his <i>People's History</i> - that the Irish were used to break the settled Anglo worker, then they were broken by Italians, then they were broke by Poles etc...]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>I think a part of the issue with 'immigration' is that a decent % of the 'reception areas' are in small towns which have suffered generational brain-drain [think of for example the agri colonies which are now strongly Hispanic in the Mid-West] and often have very set ideas on 'what things should look like' - that a ex-mining town doesn't really want say, tourism / educational facilities / artist colonies / retirement communities / tech hubs or solar farms - they just want the fucking mines back. This reminds me of my recent visit back to HomeSmallTown, a washed-up little place where what little economic energy felt now is from the recent migrants [in this case 'foreign to this town']. Cue whining about 'foreign shops' in the town centre etc. Even after pointing out those units had been empty before that and had been for years - they were adamant that there was a BadThing. Came to realise that they didn't want economic recovery, they desired a picture of 1980 to walk back into. Not sure how I could soundbite this away. <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 16:52, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span class="outdent-template" style="display:block; margin-top:-0.5em; color:#AAA;"><span style="display:inline-block; overflow:hidden;">┌</span><span style="display:inline-block; overflow:hidden; width:15.2em;">────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────</span><span style="display:inline-block; overflow:hidden;">┘</span></span><span></span> Corrupt wasn't arguing for a "sensible immigration policy," he was arguing to ban immigration entirely. He stated that was the centrist position. My response to that was "a sensible approach to immigration is to expand legal pathways, rather than restrict them as Trump is doing, go after the structures that incentivize big business to hire migrant labor in the first place (and there is a difference between undocumented labor and simple "migrant" labor), and invest in those countries we are seeing record numbers of immigrants from so that immigration doesn't seem like such an appealing economic pathway to people desiring prosperity." Plus, as I have stated previously, a lot of anti-immigrant sentiment in the States <i>is</i> based on bullshit fearmongering, it's literally an <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://fair.org/home/media-blame-left-for-trump-victory-rather-than-their-own-fear-based-business-model/">entire business model.</a> </p><p>Also, no one in this thread seems to give a shit about the utterly disastrous effects deportation has on communities. It rips parents from children, children from parents, spouses from their significant others There is also the fact that anti-immigrant discourse (and thus, policy) in this country is <i>thoroughly</i> racialized (much more than the "and some of it may be caused by racist sentiment" liner implies). It won't be white people (and white immigrants) targeted by Trump's immigration crackdown. It'll be racial minorities, and you can bet your ass that there have been plenty of false positives. And I don't think we should be perpetuating the rhetoric about "<a href="/wiki/Core_Americans" class="mw-redirect" title="Core Americans">Core Americans</a>" here. It's a racist dogwhistle. Hell, if this country had any real "core population," it would be Native Americans, and they've also had white nativist rhetoric thrown their way (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://apnews.com/article/idaho-racist-outburst-senator-candidate-forum-49d9e3c56b056d8406c35b914a121ae9">as seen here</a>). To boot, Hispanic-Americans are also in no way "foreign" to the US. Some of them have been here (Tejanos and Californios, for instance) since before the Southwest (and Texas) were ever a part of this country or saw Anglo boots on their soil. In fact, there is a big cross-border economy/community down there. It turns out that communities don't vanish and the people in those communities stop interacting when a bunch of thugs with guns come in and draw an imaginary line on a map separating the people in those communities. Just look at the O'odham. </p><p>It's not out of a sense of "youthful naivety" that I, and others like me, object to xenophobic policies. It's because we know where xenophobic policy comes from, and the disastrous consequences it will have on marginalized populations, as I discussed above. <a href="/wiki/User:Carthage" title="User:Carthage">Carthage</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carthage" title="User talk:Carthage">talk</a>) 04:16, 16 November 2024 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>No, I'm merely pointing out that the vast majority of the world, throughout most of history, has had the immigration policy of "fuck off". Why bring it up at all? To disabuse you of the notion that somehow, the natural, default position is to be in favor of illegal immigration. In the US, the centrist policy is "legal immigrants can stay, but illegal ones can get fucked". I've stated my ideal immigration policy in the past, but I'll reiterate it again.</dd> <dd>1) Expand student visas, 2) expand H1B, EXCEPT that it should be awarded based on employee pay and NOT a lottery, 3) eliminate the lottery visa, 4) expand/promote the military pathway, 5) rapid deportation of criminals, 6) make <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California%27s_prop_187" class="extiw" title="wp:California's prop 187" rel="nofollow"><span style="color:#477979 !important;" title="Wikipedia: California's prop 187">California's prop 187</span></a><sup><img alt="Wikipedia" src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/12px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png" decoding="async" width="12" height="12" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/18px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/24px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128" /></sup> national law, 7) expand the work visas, 8) overhaul/streamline/cheapen the legal immigration pathway, 9) go after any employer that hires illegal immigrants, 10) while "anchor babies" should absolutely be given citizenship, anyone who violated immigration law should be permanently ineligible for family reunification, and quite a few more. <a href="/wiki/User:CorruptUser" title="User:CorruptUser"><span style="color:teal"><b>Corrupt</b></span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:CorruptUser" title="User talk:CorruptUser"><span style="color:Cyan"><b>User</b></span></a> 06:48, 16 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>1) There is no "natural, default position on immigration." All politics are localized, and so all political positions (including on immigration) are informed by local conditions. A historical trend to tell outsiders to "fuck off" does not in anyway mean that's somehow "more natural" than letting people in. Borders are a very artificial phenomenon, and integration and migration have been just as much the average historical trend as xenophobia and isolation.</dd> <dd>2) You didn't state that the centrist position was "legal immigrants can stay, but illegal ones can get fucked." You stated the centrist position was "don't let anybody in." You're moving the goalposts. Hell, I was the one who stated that the moderate position is to ensure that there are viable legal pathways for people to immigrate, not ban it entirely like what you stated. Notice that nowhere in this thread did I argue for completely open borders. Stating that "anti-immigrant politics in this country is generated by racist fearmongering from people in power, and that completely banning immigration is a stupid position to take" is not equivalent to "I believe our borders should be totally open and we should do no screening of people coming in."</dd> <dd>3) I, however, also seem to be the only one acknowledging the practical realities of the situation. Because immigration politics <i>in the United States</i> are so heavily racialized, there <i>is</i> going to be a racial component to who we screen, and how we enforce anti-immigration laws, and that marginalized communities <i>are</i> going to be negatively effected by these policies. The <i>U.S. citizens</i> being mistakenly picked up by ICE are not white guys. ICE isn't really going after white immigrants. It's going after people who look like Cesar Chavez, no matter how long people like Chavez have been in the country, or if they are here legally or not. And there <i>are</i> going to be attempts to restrict <i>legal</i> immigrants, so that people who were here legally are now here illegally. <a href="/wiki/User:Carthage" title="User:Carthage">Carthage</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carthage" title="User talk:Carthage">talk</a>) 07:06, 16 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>From what I've seen of mainline American centrist opinion [like the 'Very Serious People' talking heads] I would guess Corrupt is correct in the "legal immigrants can stay, but illegal ones can get fucked" position [I'm going to assume the earlier 'immigrants can fuck off' was a mistake by omission rather than shifting the posts]. However, while they are also correct in pointing out that 'fuck off unless we explicitly say otherwise' immigration policies are roughly the norm around the world right now [give or take] but Carthage is also correct in pointing out that the American mythos of being 'a city on the hill, welcome to all comers' is in stark contrast to this. I still think the 'anchor baby' line is BS, though - or at best, a very tiny issue [it sounds very close to the British 'teen girl has baby to get a free council house' trope which right-wing shits still peddle despite the fact <i>that</i> a) I never met a teen mother who got knocked up for that purpose and b) housing shortages means that 'hasn't worked' for some time now].</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>That said, they didn't say there was anything 'natural' in this current position - I mean I pointed out before that before 1914, effectively the <i>entire world</i> was visa free. This state of affairs would have also been held as 'natural', I suspect, just like it was held as 'natural' that the Lower Classes shouldn't be educated because their station in life was to toil. I'm not ignoring the human factor in this either; it's just that again, that's a <i>different</i> conversation. Does deportations of undocumenteds hurt their families? I don't think anyone is saying it doesn't. But simply saying 'that will hurt others so we'll let you go with no penalty' isn't a viable position with the Big Public because they'll feel strongly that it makes a mockery of all those folks who <i>did</i> go through all hoops to get residency. What said penality actually <i>is</i> is another topic - though I'm going to guess that the majority of the Big Public won't be in for performative cruelty.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>And yes, the very nature of having policies means you'll end up with false positives/negatives - that's ultimately unavoidable. From what I can tell, the USA has a similar issue to us in the UK in which we lack formal, national systems of an ID card which allows 'legal' residents to assert their position with ease [this is perhaps worse in the USA because less of you as a % of the population have passports] which results in individual officers being in the position to 'use their own judgement' aka to use both conscious and unconscious bias.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>I'm aware that you personally didn't advocate 'totally open borders with zero checks', Carthage. The problem is 'you' [as in your position] have been quite well-painted as such by the right-wing shits of this world as advocating this. Yes, this is utterly unfair and incorrect; but it's part of the cost we have to pay; like having to constantly point out that no, just because you support trans rights it doesn't mean 'we think there's a thousand genders' and supporting a reasonable welfare state isn't that you believe in a continuous supply of 'gives' to lazy fuckers. What's more, often when 'we' [as in 'folks on the genuine left'] get 'ambush questions' we're unprepared to give a pithy, 'potted answers' to allow folks to get the gist of our position. Yes, a lot of nuance is lost by doing this but we both know that if we don't define ourselves our opponents <i>will</i> and it will invariably be a lot worse. <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 14:11, 16 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>there are 1000 genders and every time someone complains i personally double the amount <a href="/wiki/User:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan" title="User:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan">TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan" title="User talk:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan">talk</a>) 19:19, 16 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>and I add one to the tally of 'You suck.' what a worry <a href="/wiki/User:Torrent" title="User:Torrent">Torrent</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Torrent" title="User talk:Torrent">talk</a>) 09:49, 18 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd><span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:Torrent" title="User:Torrent">Torrent</a></span> Who do you mean by 'You'? <a href="/wiki/User:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan" title="User:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan">TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan" title="User talk:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan">talk</a>) 18:16, 18 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Well, one person, one tally in my book. If you're being sarcastic a little bit of context is needed.<a href="/wiki/User:Torrent" title="User:Torrent">Torrent</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Torrent" title="User talk:Torrent">talk</a>) 08:50, 19 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Ohhh. <a href="/wiki/User:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan" title="User:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan">TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan" title="User talk:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan">talk</a>) 18:34, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <h2><span id="Can_anyone_identify_where_this_image_was_taken?_/_location_of_place_(bar_or_diner)_in_photo"></span><span class="mw-headline" id="Can_anyone_identify_where_this_image_was_taken.3F_.2F_location_of_place_.28bar_or_diner.29_in_photo">Can anyone identify where this image was taken? / location of place (bar or diner) in photo</span></h2> <p><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://i.ibb.co/sy7pxm9/Photo-bar.png">https://i.ibb.co/sy7pxm9/Photo-bar.png</a> Need help identifying location of this place. Is there any technology that can show place in the photo? <a href="/wiki/User:Anti-eugenicist" title="User:Anti-eugenicist">Anti-eugenicist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Anti-eugenicist" title="User talk:Anti-eugenicist">talk</a>) </p> <dl><dd>Google image search (<a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.google.com/imghp?hl=en&ogbl">https://www.google.com/imghp?hl=en&ogbl</a>) can sometimes work, but nothing relevant turned up when I searched. Identifying the artwork on the wall might help. From the bare light bulb, I would guess a café in Europe. I haven't seen these much in the US anymore. <a href="/wiki/User:Bongolian" title="User:Bongolian">Bongolian</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bongolian" title="User talk:Bongolian">talk</a>) 00:54, 17 November 2024 (UTC) The white neon sign on the right appears to say "Bay", indicating Anglophone. <a href="/wiki/User:Bongolian" title="User:Bongolian">Bongolian</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bongolian" title="User talk:Bongolian">talk</a>) 01:03, 17 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Can the poster or the image thereon be identified (may help in dating the photo)? <a href="/wiki/User:Anna_Livia" title="User:Anna Livia">Anna Livia</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Anna_Livia" title="User talk:Anna Livia">talk</a>) 18:45, 17 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Appears to be a cover for a 1983 magazine? <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/185544203098">https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/185544203098</a> - there's a photo of the original photographic poster too. <a href="/wiki/User:Namako" title="User:Namako">Namako</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Namako" title="User talk:Namako">talk</a>) 18:52, 17 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>I can't figure out the shops outside. The bar style seems to be common in Italian and Irish bars. If it was taken with a phone the original might have location metadata attached to it. <a href="/wiki/User:Namako" title="User:Namako">Namako</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Namako" title="User talk:Namako">talk</a>) 19:38, 17 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Thanks for help everyone. <a href="/wiki/User:Anti-eugenicist" title="User:Anti-eugenicist">Anti-eugenicist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Anti-eugenicist" title="User talk:Anti-eugenicist">talk</a>) 16:59, 18 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>The wide shot isn't really anything that would be easy to do without a panoramic lens, which would mean, most likely, this taken on a phone and edited with a filter. Why, exactly, are we locating this photo? Cool photo, don't get me wrong.<a href="/wiki/User:Torrent" title="User:Torrent">Torrent</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Torrent" title="User talk:Torrent">talk</a>) 05:39, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <h2><span class="mw-headline" id="Artifacts_and_trash">Artifacts and trash</span></h2> <p>What's the difference between an artifact and trash? Is it aesthetics? Class? Function? We prop up big monuments like Hammurabi's legal code in museums, but that's not the kind of artifact archaeologists are most interested in (obvious generalization is obvious). It's what's in the middens, the junk ancient people threw away. We can learn a lot from piles of literal shit. Ancient peoples evidently didn't value the discarded bits of bone and shell they threw away once those bits of bone and shell had served their purpose, but archaeologists do. But the products, the lives of everyday people aren't really the ones that get memorialized. Not really, and while there are exceptions like <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onfim" class="extiw" title="wp:Onfim" rel="nofollow"><span style="color:#477979 !important;" title="Wikipedia: Onfim">Onfim's drawings</span></a>,<sup><img alt="Wikipedia" src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/12px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png" decoding="async" width="12" height="12" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/18px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/24px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128" /></sup> we remember Hammurabi much more than the poor schmucks who worked his fields. The poor bastards chosen for the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/substitute_king_ritual" class="extiw" title="wp:substitute king ritual" rel="nofollow"><span style="color:#477979 !important;" title="Wikipedia: substitute king ritual">substitute king ritual</span></a><sup><img alt="Wikipedia" src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/12px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png" decoding="async" width="12" height="12" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/18px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/24px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128" /></sup> aren't remembered beyond their function as the substitute king. And what does this say about today's society, and how people in times distant from our own will relate to us? The technical answer to that question is "it's ultimately subjective, but to an archaeologist nothing is trash, as even literal piles of shit can reveal tons of valuable insights," but archaeologists are not wider society. What archaeologists value is not necessarily what wider society values, and archaeologists themselves are not separate from society. They are still people subject to bias. The scientific method does a lot to mitigate the effects of bias, but it ultimately cannot tell us what to value, and valuation is really how we distinguish between what counts as an artifact to be preserved and what counts as trash to be thrown away. <a href="/wiki/User:Carthage" title="User:Carthage">Carthage</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carthage" title="User talk:Carthage">talk</a>) 10:48, 18 November 2024 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>There was a Star Trek scene in which something like this was mentioned; the takeaway was that for a human, an antique, an ancient thing, is seen as a connection to the past, a memory of continuity. So we would retain things that a more utilitarian species might have thrown away long ago - and it turns out to be wise when "that old thing" suddenly becomes useful, like an antique used for historical comparison. (Not directly related to your points, but I took the words "Artifacts and trash" into my head and decided to pour out my thoughts.) <a href="/wiki/User:Meow" title="User:Meow">Meow</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Meow" title="User talk:Meow"><span style="color:orange"><sup><i>Purr</i></sup></span></a> 13:47, 18 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>And, with museums etc, it is often the 'ordinary little objects' which are the most collectable because nobody saw any reason to keep them (and often what is marketed in the usual places as 'collectable (hence the price) and will retain their value' are never worth what was paid for them (partially because most survive, tastes change, people were paying for the hype etc - eg some of the 'Coronation of Charles III gold coins - which differ little in size or weight from a coat of nail varnish). <dl><dd>There is also the saying 'One person's trash is another person's treasure' - and sometimes it is the specific association/because someone has made a collection of the items/the fact that the items have faded out of common usage that makes them interesting. (examples might be as trivial as carbon paper or floppy discs.) <a href="/wiki/User:Anna_Livia" title="User:Anna Livia">Anna Livia</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Anna_Livia" title="User talk:Anna Livia">talk</a>) 17:04, 18 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>The history of things sometimes gives them more or less value - and sometimes for not very logical reason reasons. An old guitar once played by Eric Clapton has a lot more value than an identical guitar previously owned by someone who is not famous. Houses previously owned by murders or serial killers have lower prices. In art, a forgery can be so good that only a highly trained expert can differentiate it from the real thing - artistically they are essentially identical, yet one is worth far more then the other.<a href="/wiki/User:Bob_M" title="User:Bob M">Bob</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bob_M" title="User talk:Bob M"><sup>"Life is short and (insert adjective)"</sup></a> 17:43, 18 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>I highly recommend reading <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provenance_(novel)">Provenance by Ann Leckie</a>. The book's storyline does an entire deep dive on everything already mentioned here and more. <a href="/wiki/User:Impiricism" title="User:Impiricism">Impiricism</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Impiricism" title="User talk:Impiricism">talk</a>) 18:24, 18 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Speaking of museums, there is a <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyds_Bank_coprolite" class="extiw" title="wp:Lloyds Bank coprolite" rel="nofollow"><span style="color:#477979 !important;" title="Wikipedia: Lloyds Bank coprolite">literal piece of shit</span></a><sup><img alt="Wikipedia" src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/12px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png" decoding="async" width="12" height="12" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/18px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/24px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128" /></sup> on display at the Jorvik Viking Centre. <a href="/wiki/User:Carthage" title="User:Carthage">Carthage</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carthage" title="User talk:Carthage">talk</a>) 18:30, 18 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Yes. That link failed by the way. But, we have images of a coprolite and a urolite on our <a href="/wiki/Bullshit" title="Bullshit">bullshit</a> page. <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regurgitalite" class="extiw" title="wp:Regurgitalite" rel="nofollow"><span style="color:#477979 !important;" title="Wikipedia: Regurgitalite">Regurgitalites</span></a><sup><img alt="Wikipedia" src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/12px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png" decoding="async" width="12" height="12" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/18px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/24px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128" /></sup> — ahem — also fall into this category! <a href="/wiki/User:Bongolian" title="User:Bongolian">Bongolian</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bongolian" title="User talk:Bongolian">talk</a>) 18:57, 18 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Oh, thank you. It should be fixed now. <a href="/wiki/User:Carthage" title="User:Carthage">Carthage</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carthage" title="User talk:Carthage">talk</a>) 19:46, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span class="outdent-template" style="display:block; margin-top:-0.5em; color:#AAA;"><span style="display:inline-block; overflow:hidden;">┌</span><span style="display:inline-block; overflow:hidden; width:15.2em;">────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────</span><span style="display:inline-block; overflow:hidden;">┘</span></span><span></span>There really is no difference. When archaeologists discover an old shithouse, it's like winning the lottery. They've just found a way to tell what people's diets were and how they may have changed over time. There is even a sub-field of archaeology devoted to the study of trash, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbology" class="extiw" title="wp:Garbology" rel="nofollow"><span style="color:#477979 !important;" title="Wikipedia: Garbology">"Garbology"</span></a>.<sup><img alt="Wikipedia" src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/12px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png" decoding="async" width="12" height="12" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/18px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/24px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128" /></sup> The term actually comes from the guy who regularly raided Bob Dylan's trash and reported on the contents. Archaeologist William Rathje pioneered the serious garbology field by excavating active landfills. Another example comes from Britain, which due to the Nazi naval blockade and sources of pulp from mainland Europe no longer being available, there was a great paper shortage during World War II. There were campaigns to collect unwanted paper across Britain for recycling. Did people donate their Shakespeare, their dictionary, or high-brow books? No, they tossed their dime-novels, probably once bought at newsstands — we're tossing the newspapers, why not toss the newsstand books too. Guess which books are hard to find and valuable now. <a href="/wiki/User:Bongolian" title="User:Bongolian">Bongolian</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bongolian" title="User talk:Bongolian">talk</a>) 18:50, 18 November 2024 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>I question your latter example. If the UK had book shortages [true], why would Brits surrender <i>readable books</i> to be pulped for toilet paper? There was in fact repeated drives for folks to donate unwanted books; not for pulping, but for re-distribution to the Forces etc. What's more, books in reasonable condition still had reasonable resale value [more so due to war shortages] - so chances are unwanted books would have been sold off to a bookshop, even if it was only as kiloware. No, the issue was that cheap paperbacks a la Penguin were to some extent designed to be <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephemera">Ephemera</a> - that the major reason they cost less than a coffee does today was due to cheap paper and slapdash binding which doesn't bode well for them lasting generations. Your Shakespeare, dictionaries, high-brow tomes etc were <i>more</i> likely to survive not because 'people didn't want to pulp them' so much, but the simple fact that they usually cost five/six Penguins and therefore, their build quality was much higher. So I think this is more a case of survivorship bias; that folks used their Penguins as firelighters not because they discounted their value as literature, but because they'd ceased to be functional as books [the cynic within me might also suggest that not many people were reading the Shakespeare which kept it in good condition!]. <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 19:51, 18 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>The Penguins are (slightly?) higher-class of books than what I'm talking about. The newsstand books from what I've seen tended to be a bit more 'racy' (appealing to prurient interests without being too explicit), probably not something the government would have wanted to distribute to soldiers. I don't know of anyone who has admitted to this behavior, so I'm basing it on deduction from what can be found today from that era. Also, the person who sent the book to pulping may not have been the person who purchased it, but someone else in the household. <a href="/wiki/User:Bongolian" title="User:Bongolian">Bongolian</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bongolian" title="User talk:Bongolian">talk</a>) 01:27, 19 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>We didn't have those so much because there was formal censorship until at least the early 60s - <i>Lady Chatterly's Lover</i>, <i>Gay News</i>, <i>Life of Brian</i> all encountered legal issues and a lot of the books you're mentioning would have hit the moral guardians of the age or the timidness of the retailers even if they'd somehow managed to clear the censor [traditionally, a lot of British 'banned books' were printed in France/Netherlands and then sold via mail-order; Orwell once got raided for 'illegal literature' when he bought books via France and customs noticed]. And while early Penguins were perhaps better content-wise, they weren't when it came to literal construction quality. <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 17:51, 19 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>I have to agree with KarmaPolice — and there’s a good reason there’s a word like “pulp literature”. I think we tend to forget just how cheap (often in all senses of the word) some physical books used to be. I have a couple of old pulp detective novels and they’re basically falling apart (and not from getting reread a lot or similar wear and tear). Or consider the hundreds of millions of <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Blue_Book" class="extiw" title="wp:Little Blue Book" rel="nofollow"><span style="color:#477979 !important;" title="Wikipedia: Little Blue Book">Little Blue Books</span></a><sup><img alt="Wikipedia" src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/12px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png" decoding="async" width="12" height="12" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/18px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/24px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128" /></sup> produced and sold between 1919 and 1978. Then again, the oldest book on my shelves is a decently bound encyclopaedia whose first volume was published in 1916 (and no, it’s not a reprint)… <a href="/wiki/User:ScepticWombat" title="User:ScepticWombat">ScepticWombat</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ScepticWombat" title="User talk:ScepticWombat">talk</a>) 13:18, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd> <dd>We forget, 'pulp novels' were as revolutionary to the book trade as 'fast fashion' was to the clothing industry - that before the likes of Penguins books were printed on glossy paper, often with separate picture inserts, in hardback and often cost a half-crown <i>each</i>. In the 1920s, you could get a decent restaurant lunch for two on that [so in modern purchasing power is hovering about £40-50]. Books were a <i>luxury product</i>; that's why the Victorians so often had each of their books bound in leather and safely kept behind glass to protect from dust, soot and mould [so there's a chance Wombat's 1916 encyclopaedia have an 'aftermarket binding']. The advent of the sixpence ['cup of coffee'] Penguins turned books into a commodity product; which means in many ways they're treated <i>worse</i>. Over the decades, I've leant them out and never seen them again, left them on trains, dropped them in water, got splashes of food/drink on them, read them until the spine broke and it started to shed it's innards [which happens quite quickly], allowed them to be jostled about in a rucksack with other items and at times store them inappropriately.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Those 30s/40s/50s Penguins and Pelicans I own are already well beyond their expected lifespan. Some have pages so yellow you need to read them in very good light, others are threatening to strip themselves. Almost all have lost their dust jackets [before I got them] and have varying levels of paper brittleness which means you have do be careful handling them. Even 60s/70s Penguins have fared worse than OUP/Longman paperpacks of the same vintage, suggesting they were produced to higher standards.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>To tie this back to the main point [midden diving archaeology] is that you can tell quite a bit about the society 'doing the throwing away'. A modern variant of this would be if you worked in charity shop which took donations from the public. I did this with a bookshop and I learned quite a bit on what folks actually want/read vs what they actually buy. For example, the sheer volume of disowned, near-virgin cookbooks we got suggests very few folks actually <i>use</i> them, while the massive <i>lack</i> of Terry Pratchett books [esp for the size of print runs] suggests his readership is pretty high. As commercial second-hand bookshops don't really exist anymore, perhaps a charity bookshop is the only place you'd really get to see this. <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 19:09, 20 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd><dl><dd>OKay, but Consider Henry Darger and The Vivian Girls. Some people kinda love it. Or the Voynich Manuscripts. Curio et cetera does not equate to trash. So I would ask, instead, with the unprecedented ability we have now to archive EVERYTHING, what is important to give a little shove up into the modern zeitgeist? And it can't be the book 1984, everybody buys it, nobody actually reads that one. The thing is, we are kinda creating garbage all the time, but the population is bloomed, and doing and recording storytelling at an incredible rate. It's easy for us to say 'well, this is garbage' (see me on any Max Martin written song) but I mean, it's actually somehow, hit me baby part of our history. History's mysteries are diminishing, because I can actually just look up 'Hell Hound on My Trail' by Robert Johnson, but that doesn't mean there aren't artifacts being created today. Cult classic movies are the easiest analogue I can make. The Room, nobody should have ever enjoyed that movie, but it's going to survive. <a href="/wiki/User:Torrent" title="User:Torrent">Torrent</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Torrent" title="User talk:Torrent">talk</a>) 06:21, 22 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd><dl><dd><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://thetanks.bandcamp.com/album/epic-loads-lp">https://thetanks.bandcamp.com/album/epic-loads-lp</a> I have this on vinyl, which you can't get anymore. I bought two copies and gave one to a friend who also loves the Tanks. I keep it because I still put it on sometimes. The re ord gets spun. I bought the full Warren Ellis 'Transmetropolitan' graphic novel, and just gave it away to a friend when I was done reading it, I mean, artifacts are kinda dumb. Share what you love. It always belongs in a museum, I ain't running no g.d. museum. <a href="/wiki/User:Torrent" title="User:Torrent">Torrent</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Torrent" title="User talk:Torrent">talk</a>) 08:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <h2><span class="mw-headline" id="Recent_WIGO_Post:_Trump_compiling_list_of_military_officers_for_court-martial">Recent WIGO Post: Trump compiling list of military officers for court-martial</span></h2> <p>So... I read the NBC news headline then <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/trump-transition-team-compiling-list-current-former-us-military-office-rcna180489">read the article</a>, and I have a sick feeling that the unofficial goal of it all is to replace military leaders with Trump yes-men. Anyone else with the same feeling? <a href="/wiki/User:Impiricism" title="User:Impiricism">Impiricism</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Impiricism" title="User talk:Impiricism">talk</a>) 21:07, 18 November 2024 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>"It can't possibly happen here." Guess what, it not only <i>can</i> happen here, it <i>is</i> happening here. God bless the USA /s. <a href="/wiki/User:Carthage" title="User:Carthage">Carthage</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carthage" title="User talk:Carthage">talk</a>) 21:20, 18 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>You don't need that feeling. Trump <i>only</i> likes yes-men. He was butthurt when 'his generals' turned out to be loyal to something more than his wonderful face. Expect similar for judges, FBI investigators, Secret Service and so on.</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>If he gets this through, you're all fucked. Let's read the military oath [with my annotations in italics];</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States [<i>which is defined by a MAGA SCOTUS</i>] against all enemies, foreign and domestic [<i>defined by the Orange One</i>]; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States [<i>duh</i>] and the orders of the officers appointed over me [<i>appointed by the Orange One</i>], according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice [<i>defined by Congress</i>].</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>The path past this is simple. Mass protests > invoke the Insurrection Act > order use of US troops on their own people. It's what I heard that the Orange One <i>wanted</i> during the BLM riots which the DoD denied him [to the point I spent that night online loudly calling for folks to <i>not</i> give Trump a reason to invoke that act]. Now, it's semi-popular to think 'oh it's just words' but examples from say, Nazi Germany and even the Revolutionary War tell us that oaths <i>are</i> powerful things and it will take a lot of pressure for it to buckle, esp for military folks where 'obey the chain 'o command' is literally, built in to the whole fucking system.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>The only realistic hope is that the American officer corps is intelligent and well-read enough to know what happened to their German counterparts when they acquiesced in the dominance of National Socialism. <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 22:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Not that America <i>hasn't</i> declined from its peak already, but I sense a very strong possibility that Trump may seriously cripple the American military machine this time around, furthering the decline. If Trump's direction for the military (which was absolutely clear before the election, mind you) is to infiltrate it, replace the leaders with yes men, and directing the military to spend infinite amount of time <i>internally</i> fighting domestic matters like "<a href="/wiki/Woke" title="Woke">woke</a>" and "<a href="/wiki/DEI" title="DEI">DEI</a>" and immigrants and all the other <a href="/wiki/Fox_News" title="Fox News">Fox News</a> <a href="/wiki/Manufactroversy" title="Manufactroversy">manufactroversy</a> <a href="/wiki/Bullshit" title="Bullshit">bullshit</a>, there will be little time for alliances like <a href="/wiki/NATO" title="NATO">NATO</a> and multiple other world political matters. Mind you, many of the rubes would cheer this anyways (and there are good reason to argue against much of what the <a href="/wiki/Neoconservatism" title="Neoconservatism">neoconservatism</a> hawks have done for sure), but I don't think the <a href="/wiki/Jingoism" title="Jingoism">jingoism</a> spouting types have fully, er, *comprehended* what a loss of American military might really mean. Certainly autocrats trying to build their own world empires to overtake America, whether "ragtag, can't even take over a small country quickly, empire unlikely" (<a href="/wiki/Vladimir_Putin" title="Vladimir Putin">Vladimir Putin</a>) or "nice try so far, shame about all those other previous poor policies now blocking growth" (<a href="/wiki/Xi_Jinping" title="Xi Jinping">Xi Jinping</a>), I'm sure they are pleased that -- for all their problems -- Trump's likely to send America's armed forces into chaos *at minimum*, diminish its power further, and maybe open up some "opportunities". At any rate, I do hope that any country that does overly rely on America for military needs has gotten the "signal" that, while 2016 was a great time to argue for "diversification", the argument in 2024 is much stronger. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:BobJohnson&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:BobJohnson (page does not exist)">BobJohnson</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BobJohnson" title="User talk:BobJohnson">talk</a>) 22:59, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>I'll put is more glibly; you name me a military which was <i>more</i> effective after an politically-driven purge had happened to it. My ultimate fear is that if there's a 'neutered' American military which is much more focused on 'attacking the home front' there's a <i>very</i> good chance that Xi shall come to the conclusion 'the time for Taiwan is <i>now</i> 'and makes a move. I get the feeling that US military might is tied up perhaps too much into 'visible signs' like say, all those carrier groups which might be very vulnerable to say, wave after wave of old Chinese planes turned into kamikaze drones [<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://armyrecognition.com/news/aerospace-news/2023/pla-chinese-air-force-old-j-6-and-j-7-jets-being-converted-into-kamikaze-drones">which the Chinese have been stockpiling for at least a decade now...</a>]. The more worrying is the level of right-populists on the rise in Europe; an America 2028 could very be facing a 'Chinese Axis' <i>without</i> European assistance save perhaps the UK. <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 23:18, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>Actually, that's <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-plans-firing-squad-for-the-generals-he-hates/">exactly what's happening.</a> Nothing "unofficial" about it. <a href="/wiki/User:Carthage" title="User:Carthage">Carthage</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carthage" title="User talk:Carthage">talk</a>) 09:14, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl> <p>So trump is throwing people under the bus over his own stupid choices? wow, what a surprise. more breaking news at 11. <a href="/wiki/User:G_Man" title="User:G Man">The G</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:G_Man" title="User talk:G Man">talk</a>) 23:52, 22 November 2024 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>I think the point is that the Orange One appears to be seriously planning to pull this and almost to a person the 'Republican Party' is <i>perfectly cool with it</i>. But if Biden/Obama/Clinton had even remotely even <i>thought</i> of this they would have screamed 'dictatorship!' until they'd lost their voice. <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 18:26, 23 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>National socialism is as socialist as a people's democratic republic is a a democracy. it's not a real argument against socialism, if a Nazi wants to steal wealth by othering that won't work, nor is it really that smart to think a democratic republic can't become bonkers insane in hegemony. But, and this is where I really trust the US, we are basically impossible to govern through authoritarianism. <a href="/wiki/User:Torrent" title="User:Torrent">Torrent</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Torrent" title="User talk:Torrent">talk</a>) 02:59, 25 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <h2><span class="mw-headline" id="A_humble_prediction.">A humble prediction.</span></h2> <p>To preface things, I'm not the best at making predictions, I thought Kamala Harris would win pretty handedly at least in the electoral college department, but I do have one prediction I'm almost completely certain about, Joe Biden and Kamala Harris will not be remembered well either by the general public or historians. Now I think this will happen for two main reasons. Reason number one, they failed to beat Trump, this is fairly obvious and when Trump fucks up majorly and everyone comes to regret their vote (hopefully) they will look back on the people who failed to prevent him from becoming president of the United States of America and look on with disgust. Reason number two: Palestine, this one is also fairly obvious, sending bomb after bomb after bomb to Israel with no strings attached while they actively commit genocide is not going to be remembered fondly, at least I hope it isn't going to be remembered fondly decades from now. And so that is why I believe Joe Biden and Kamala Harris will not be remembered well decades from now. <a href="/wiki/User:A_somebody." title="User:A somebody.">A somebody.</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:A_somebody." title="User talk:A somebody.">talk</a>) 00:47, 19 November 2024 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>I think Biden will go through a phase of being remembered as an absolutely awful president, then opinion will be revised to "had some good points but was overall inadequate" when our current era is in the rearview mirror. A lot of comments will be made about the rough situation he inherited, and a lot will be made about his rigid marriage to "politics as usual" in unusual times. He's probably going to be another Taft, another Arthur-people have to be reminded he was a president. He's not going to be remembered too well but he won't make "worst president ever" lists. Harris, honestly, is going to be subject to a lot of hate in the next 4-8 years then be forgotten.-<a href="/wiki/User:Flandres" title="User:Flandres">Flandres</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Flandres" title="User talk:Flandres">talk</a>) 01:31, 19 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>I kind of sense that Biden's a <a href="/wiki/Jimmy_Carter" title="Jimmy Carter">Jimmy Carter</a> to some extent -- a middling president (who in the public eye was later redeemed by good works, but the Republican cult bots still like to shit on him) of whom the <a href="/wiki/Republican" class="mw-redirect" title="Republican">Republican</a> propaganda machine is going to make out as the Worst President Of All Time!!, but really isn't. I agree that some of the commentary will be about how "sticking to the <a href="/wiki/Third_Way" title="Third Way">Third Way</a>" may have hurt both Harris and Biden. There's certainly plenty of positives in the Biden presidency, though. Beats Dubya for sure.</dd> <dd>Donald Trump stands a good chance of being *the* worst president in American history, with only a couple of Civil War presidents below him... maybe. However, Donald Trump also represents a significant portion of American society. I see the better history in the future exploring why this is so, rather than focusing on just the figureheads. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:BobJohnson&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:BobJohnson (page does not exist)">BobJohnson</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BobJohnson" title="User talk:BobJohnson">talk</a>) 02:09, 19 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>The third significant strategic error of Biden was accelerating arms and capabilities to Ukraine much sooner. There's another significant similarity between Carter and Biden is that both were subverted by foreign governments colluding with presidential candidates, a violation of the Logan Act (Reagan with Iran and trump with Putin) to 'fix the problem' (Iran's embassy hostages for Reagan, and 'peace talks' on Ukraine for trump). <a href="/wiki/User:Bongolian" title="User:Bongolian">Bongolian</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bongolian" title="User talk:Bongolian">talk</a>) 02:30, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd> <dd>That [Flandres view] rather sounds like Orwell's opinion on <a href="/wiki/Neville_Chamberlain" title="Neville Chamberlain">Neville Chamberlain</a>;'he was merely a stupid old man doing his best according to his very dim lights' - the 'stupidity' being his continuing belief in Third Way, while the 'dim lights' being not realising that ideology was dead [or at least no longer really functional]. I got the feeling from him that his mind <i>was</i> groping a bit towards the latter conclusion, but he never really got to it. The electorate itself has a bit of blame for this; I likened Biden's election in '20 being a desire for 'smooth jazz, Budweiser and baseball' levels of stability/predictability over Trump's 'metal, whiskey and MMA' [politically speaking] of the last four years [esp Covid]. I suspect he will most likely end up like another Carter; 'decent man, but fought against the tide and lost'. I think he'll get respect for effectively 'coming out of retirement' in '20 but then he loses it for not accepting he was simply too knackered for another term and allowing enough time for an open primary.</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>The view on Harris shall, I fear be solidly tied to Trump 2.0. I try to be a wet blanket on this kind of thing, but the 'steps from dictatorship' are much fewer than any time since... not sure, really. Much of the survival of [semi] democracy and freedom now relies on such factors as 'Trumpian incompetence', 'inner circle cross-purposes' and 'MAGA SCOTUS actually growing a concience' than anything actually legal, organisational or political now, and that's a worrying place to be in. If all this turns out to be hyperbole... I think she'll be forgiven and forgotten. If not... I think her memory shall be dammed. That she could have Stopped All Of This Before It Started [whatever This might be] but she fluffed it [but she's still young, a political comeback isn't impossible].</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>I get this the above is depressing. But I'm a fair student of history and if that's taught me anything it's that when a person of Trump's temperament gets power and is not presented with strong checks/balances they will have a tendency to try it as far as they think they can get away with. So if anything, this is a plea to keep faith, motivate others and prepare to fight <b>all the fucking way down the line</b>. <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 02:40, 19 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>There is a glimmer of hope that a small number of GOP Senators will show a spine occasionally. Some have expressed repulsion at trump's choice of Gaetz, and Speaker Johnson has now credibly covered up allegations of Gaetz's interstate sex trafficking.<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://abcnews.go.com/US/lawyer-tells-abc-news-2-clients-told-house/story?id=115863675">[4]</a> Interstate sex trafficking is a Federal crime (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mann_Act" class="extiw" title="wp:Mann Act" rel="nofollow"><span style="color:#477979 !important;" title="Wikipedia: Mann Act">Mann Act</span></a><sup><img alt="Wikipedia" src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/12px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png" decoding="async" width="12" height="12" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/18px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/24px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128" /></sup>), so this is a much bigger deal than if he had kept his behavior confined to Florida. Enough GOP Senators might even demand confirmations if they think their power means anything. <a href="/wiki/User:Bongolian" title="User:Bongolian">Bongolian</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bongolian" title="User talk:Bongolian">talk</a>) 03:21, 19 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Regarding Harris' loss, one explanation that seems to not have gotten much notice is the effect of the sophisticated <a href="/wiki/False_flag" class="mw-redirect" title="False flag">false-flag</a>/<a href="/wiki/Black_propaganda" class="mw-redirect" title="Black propaganda">black-propaganda</a> operation conducted by Musk,<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20241115100643/https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/11/15/republican-ads-false-flag/">[5]</a> which Timothy Snyder traces to Putin if only indirectly.<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://snyder.substack.com/p/the-phantom-campaign">[6]</a> <dl><dd>Eh, I don't think Progress 2028 had much to do with it. <a href="/wiki/User:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan" title="User:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan">TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan" title="User talk:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan">talk</a>) 02:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>Yet I lived through a decade of Tory MPs 'expressing repulsion' for various shit Tory Govts were doing but <i>lining up to vote for them anyway</i>. Again, and again and again. There comes a point you need to quit believing that there's this mythic 'sane Tory' [or 'reasonable Republican', in this case] actually fucking exists anymore who will for unknown reasons will ride in and save you/us all from the excesses of Trump. <i>They won't.'</i> The ones who <i>would</i> stand are now out of power [with perhaps a few notable exceptions; I'm not au fait with American politics to blithely announce 'none'] and a lot of those who hand-wring are often only bothered about <i>tone</i> and not fucking substance of MAGA, and most of them don't have the balls to stand against the MAGA-cult. I think the 'forces of resistance' should expect <i>zero</i> assistance from that quarter, and perhaps regard them all as an enemy unless proven otherwise.</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>So what, Musk <i>lied</i>. I almost dropped my monocle in my drink! I now expect these folks to do anything and say anything to win now. It's why they win; you tell fuckers what they want to hear even if it flatly contradicts what you told the last person or even the limits of actual physical reality. Democratic politics only reasonably works if all the major players abide by the rules [even if you play fast and sharp with them at times] but a lot of politics now is like playing Monopoly with someone who openly steals from the bank, cheats die rolls and threatens overturn the board if you deign to accuse them of cheating. <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 03:48, 19 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>I don’t think Harris will be remembered at all, since she didn’t win and any blame for the loss is more likely to stick to Biden (for clinging on far too long) and you can already see the narrative shaping up around Harris “simply not having the time to win” due to becoming the top candidate too late in the process.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>And no, I don’t think Harris will make any meaningful political comeback on the national stage. She’s not a particularly good campaigner (as we’ve seen both this time around and in her 2020 primary) and few are likely to back a “loser”.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Biden’s reputation will largely depend on exactly how awful and disastrous Trump’s second term will be. If Trump is awful but not catastrophic, Biden will likely end up in the “ineffective nonentity” category, but if Trump is worse than that, Biden is more likely to be put into the “late Weimar leader” category.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>As for GOP Congress critters voting down even such abysmal candidates as Gaetz or JFK Jr., I don’t have high hopes. The bigger issue is whether Trump will be able to browbeat GOP Congress critters into taking a “fake recess” to allow him to make these appointments without consent at all. If they fold on this, the question will then be if the SCOTUS will accept this blatant skirting of constitutional processes. <a href="/wiki/User:ScepticWombat" title="User:ScepticWombat">ScepticWombat</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ScepticWombat" title="User talk:ScepticWombat">talk</a>) 04:23, 19 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>The surprising thing about Musk is that he once admitted he was wrong (in 2018) about a major fuckup he caused — attempting to totally automate a Tesla factory.<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/apr/16/elon-musk-humans-robots-slow-down-tesla-model-3-production">[7]</a> He even said "Humans are underrated."<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://x.com/elonmusk/status/984882630947753984">[8]</a> The incident and tweet are probably long forgotten by himself and his minions by now, as he's gone back to his life of various facets of misanthropy: eliminating humans wherever he can, trying to automate everything with AI, and colonizing Mars with billionaires and bots. <a href="/wiki/User:Bongolian" title="User:Bongolian">Bongolian</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bongolian" title="User talk:Bongolian">talk</a>) 04:32, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd> <dd>Harris is an ex-VP, so it's not like she'll vanish into the ether entirely. And while I said 'a political comeback', I don't mean 're-run to be President'. What are you saying she <i>must</i> do; buy a farm in California to retire to, wave away journalists and never ever comment on the political developments, regardless to how shit they get? To never use what platform she has to 'continue the fight' as the lights go out, even as she will see the chilling effect creeping over America? To not breathe a word as she sees a full-blown cult of personality develop alongside mass political purges? If she genuinely <i>believes</i> her rhetoric about Trump being a serious danger to democracy itself - and I was her - I would throw myself after Jan into building up a pro-democracy political machine [a proper one with proper funds and paid workers] to help 'the fightback against MAGA' at all levels of politics.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>And to answer Wombat's questions; <i>yes</i>, I think the MAGA Congresscritters will accept that <i>and</i> the MAGA SCOTUS will rule this as fine. Which is why if I was a talking head interviewing the former 'hand-wringers' about the shittiness of the situation, my retort to their repulsion would be 'so what are you gonna do about it?' ad nauseam until they either a) nail themselves into openly opposing it or b) me simply saying 'okay, so nothing really' to their waffle. <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 12:44, 19 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>I’m not quite sure that the Senate will knuckle under, if they can avoid doing so by choosing a different way of grovelling to Trump. If they end up doing so, I’m not quite sure what the SCOTUS will do, either, because if there’s one thing the whacko majority in SCOTUS can agree on (and get the minority to support to some extent) it’s to ensure the power and some degree of status of the SCOTUS itself.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>As for Harris, my point was that she’ll become a relative political nonentity along the line of other failed presidential bids (including those of a lot of ex-Veeps). Who really speaks of Dukakis today (outside of the history of POTUS campaigning, of course), though he was once hailed as a new breed of “Atari Democrat”. Sure, Al Gore carved out a niche for himself, but it wasn’t in electoral politics.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>This doesn’t mean that Harris will just retire, because there are plenty of sinecures and the like for has-been national politicians (academia, think tanks, punditry, the speaking circuit etc.), though I doubt she will, say, re enter the senior ranks of California politics.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Furthermore, Harris doesn’t even seem to have a clear political project or some key policy that she champions. Gore had already demonstrated his interest in climate change and policy while he was an “active politician”, but I have a hard time pinpointing some kind of similar “cause” that Harris might champion. <a href="/wiki/User:ScepticWombat" title="User:ScepticWombat">ScepticWombat</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ScepticWombat" title="User talk:ScepticWombat">talk</a>) 14:52, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd> <dd>With the Senate, you tell me the ultimate difference between a Senate which arselickingly sends through bills with peans of praise stapled to them or one which comprises of them whining and hand-wringing but then passing the bills anyway? Functionally none. They're 'white moderates', people who sooth their souls with nice-sounding words which ultimately mean sod all - at best, they hold off the 'insult' but assist in the 'injury'. But Third Way types hold off on saying this because they think 'they may eventually come to us' so be nice. Fat lot it's done for them so far.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>With Harris, I think we're agreeing to agree here; my point was that she <i>could</i> do my suggestion if she really wanted, but you're quite correct in that she kinda showed nil 'cause interest' while VP [don't know about her Senate record] and she'd <i>also</i> have to believe in 'grassroots machine politics' which I do [don't think she does]. Another option is for her to lick her wounds and be determined to make a 'comeback' formally later - after all, this was how another VP turned failed P-candidate did in the last century [no prize for who this was...] but again, hits the motivation bit. <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 17:29, 19 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>I’m not saying that whether the Senate knuckles under and goes into a “Trumpcess” or finds some other way of pandering to Trump makes a difference right now, and I definitely see the GOP senators actually blocking any of the unqualified, venal, toadying whackos that Trump wants in his cabinet.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Where I think the concrete appointment process might make some difference is in how much Trump manages to openly break the constitutional order. If he manages to get his nominations through a “senate Trumpcess” and the SCOTUS backs him up (which, sadly, is a very real possibility), the GOP will have established a precedent for their future presidents to use. It’s always easier to follow such a precedent than to break new ground — unless you’re a “no limits” narcissistic wrecking ball like Trump. <a href="/wiki/User:ScepticWombat" title="User:ScepticWombat">ScepticWombat</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ScepticWombat" title="User talk:ScepticWombat">talk</a>) 20:21, 19 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>I don't believe they will - I <i>hope</i> they will, but hope makes nothing. Assuming Trump doesn't resort to some shit-pulling to sneak them past, those 'nail Senators' [who at best might be 2-3] will come under massive pressure from all fronts to 'allow to be nailed down'. And judging from the sickness rating of American politics right now, this very well <i>shall include real threats of physical violence against them</i> which will then be minimised by their 'Republican colleagues' as nothing more than 'banter' or some shit. The whole party now has been submerged by Orange <i>Führerprinzip</i> and it's not likely they'd develop a backbone after his 'amazing, huge' election victory which has scared the professional career politico into silent obedience - I mean, they <i>have</i> basically walked down the MAGA path until this point, the folks who refused to have been purged.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Again, I'm speaking of British experience, where I saw a somewhat similar metamorphosis happen to the British Conservatives over fourteen years. <i>Yes</i>, we had Tory 'nails' but as each iteration of Tory Govt arose they became less and less [retired, purged, defected] <i>and</i> the internal Overton Window also shrunk to the point the Party only got rid of the shitshows which was Johnson and then Truss <i>because</i> of widespread Big Public anger and revulsion against 'all of it', <i>not</i> that they'd had actual criticisms of actions, policies or style [people forget that Sunak supported 'Trussanomics', only he felt she'd gone 'a bit too fast and hard']. Alas, I suspect similar will have happened to your Republican Party - that the careerists and remaining closet 'moderates' will <i>only</i> put the boot in when the Orange One is visibly crumbling - like those 'anti-Nazi' generals only pulled their finger out to do Hitler in <i>when it was obvious the war had been lost</i>.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>As for 'making precedent'... that's the most worrying aspect of all this. Trump wants this because he's an old-school shit boss with an ego the size of the Pentagon and inability to listen to honest advisors - but it's going to have crossed his mind at least once that he very well might be building the gallows which say, President Whitmer strings him up on in 2029 [because I could see Trump 2.0 being <i>so</i> shit the public seriously turns against MAGA]. Therefore, we need to assume that not only do they [I think it will be a Vance / Trump Jr ticket] intend to win in 28, but they also plan to use every day to <i>make sure</i> they win. <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 16:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span class="outdent-template" style="display:block; margin-top:-0.5em; color:#AAA;"><span style="display:inline-block; overflow:hidden;">┌</span><span style="display:inline-block; overflow:hidden; width:15.2em;">────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────</span><span style="display:inline-block; overflow:hidden;">┘</span></span><span></span>The latest bad sign is MAGA showing they prefer a coup to winning an election, ignoring all the transition rules (which theoretically work for the incoming administration's favor under normal times), meaning among other things ignoring all security clearances. Mike Davis, president of the Article III Project said, "He should not trust the politicized and weaponized intelligence and law enforcement agencies that hobbled his presidency the first time. It’s a hostile takeover on behalf of the American people.<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://archive.is/8W7or">[9]</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Bongolian" title="User:Bongolian">Bongolian</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bongolian" title="User talk:Bongolian">talk</a>) 03:01, 20 November 2024 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>Trump is definitely trying to ensure that parody is well and truly dead: Now he has announced that he’s putting a wrestling boss in charge of education and a quack in charge of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services to go along with his anti-vaxxer in charge of health and the alleged criminal as AG. <a href="/wiki/User:ScepticWombat" title="User:ScepticWombat">ScepticWombat</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ScepticWombat" title="User talk:ScepticWombat">talk</a>) 12:34, 20 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Linda McMahon actually was in Trump term 1 as Small Business Administrator the first time around. Her lone education resume credit (aside from a degree in education) is that she previously was on the Connecticut Board of Education, appointed by Jodi Rell, from 2009-2010. Why did Rell appointed McMahon back then? Search me; degree aside, she certainly hardly seems qualified for an education board job due to no experience. I can only find <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.ct.gov/GovernorRell/cwp/view.asp?A=3675&Q=431648">a rather generic press releases</a> emphasizing her understanding of "the skills and education needed to succeed in businsess" on The Google. Er, okay.</dd> <dd>I do know that Republicans have *always* tended to have some <a href="/wiki/Appeal_to_celebrity" title="Appeal to celebrity">"celebrity naval-gazing"</a> in their politics even before the <a href="/wiki/Trumpism" title="Trumpism">Trumpism</a> days, where how famous you were mattered more than competence. It just seems to have gone into hyperdrive under Trumpism. I guess the silver lining is that I imagine McMahan will be better than <a href="/wiki/Betsy_DeVos" title="Betsy DeVos">Betsy DeVos</a> though; it's another sign that maybe Trump is leaning less on the <a href="/wiki/Dominionism" title="Dominionism">Dominionism</a> side of his coalition.</dd> <dd>Note that there are <i>multiple</i> sex scandals going on right now with the WWE. There's the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vince_McMahon_sex_trafficking_scandal" class="extiw" title="wp:Vince McMahon sex trafficking scandal" rel="nofollow"><span style="color:#477979 !important;" title="Wikipedia: Vince McMahon sex trafficking scandal">Vince McMahon sex trafficking scandal</span></a><sup><img alt="Wikipedia" src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/12px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png" decoding="async" width="12" height="12" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/18px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/24px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128" /></sup> which is ongoing. There's an ongoing <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.cbsnews.com/baltimore/news/new-lawsuit-alleges-child-sexual-abuse-of-wwe-ring-boys-maryland/">recent re-opening</a> of an <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_boy_scandal" class="extiw" title="wp:Ring boy scandal" rel="nofollow"><span style="color:#477979 !important;" title="Wikipedia: Ring boy scandal">old 1990s scandal</span></a><sup><img alt="Wikipedia" src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/12px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png" decoding="async" width="12" height="12" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/18px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/24px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128" /></sup> where a longtime ring announcer named Melvin Phillips (and other wrestlers) would target "ring boys" for hire and then later sexually assault them. This is, what, the <i>third</i> Donald Trump nominee (the other two being Matt Gaetz and Pete Hegseth) who have some form of sex assault / trafficking scandal swirling in the background, right? (Not counting, of course, the Orange Cheeto's conviction of a sex crime as well.) Meanwhile all those <a href="/wiki/QAnon" title="QAnon">QAnon</a> idiots who worship <a href="/wiki/Donald_Trump" title="Donald Trump">Donald Trump</a> are probably still blaming <a href="/wiki/Democrats" class="mw-redirect" title="Democrats">Democrats</a> for whatever sex crime malaise pops in their heads. Gotta love <a href="/wiki/Propaganda" title="Propaganda">propaganda</a>... <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:BobJohnson&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:BobJohnson (page does not exist)">BobJohnson</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BobJohnson" title="User talk:BobJohnson">talk</a>) 15:17, 20 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>I think Trump has <i>quietly</i> pushed the Fundies off his boat - or more correctly, relegated them to working in the galley and engine-room, not on the bridge. I have zero proof of this, but I think he didn't hugely like the fact they were not 100% loyal to him <i>as a person</i> [they were loyal to Dominionism] and as such he didn't feel he 'could trust them'. I think the 'Pence treachery' bit deep into his massive, soft ego - he'd <i>hired</i> him and he's not fucking done what he'd been told to! - and as a result that whole wing is on the 'won't get fooled again' list [though it's also possible that he felt he needed to ally with them to shore up his voting-blocs in '16 but by '22 felt fairly sure he'd managed to usurp that faction's base for himself, and thus didn't need their leaders anymore].</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Now, I think Trump is 'hiring' on three criteria only; one is 'unwavering loyalty' to himself personally. Two, people who will never outshine his greatness. Three, people who will not be a threat to him. Now, who do I pick for my team? A bunch of people who due to personal, legal and/or viewpoint 'minuses' would never get even a sniff of power if I'd not <i>given</i> them it, who shall do whatever I order them to and shall never steal my limelight or generate <i>any</i> comparisons which make me look bad in any way. Lastly, I think Trump is hiring 'people I get' and as such, we are seeing a hit parade of people who are at least semi-Trumps <i>psychologically</i> and man, it's ugly.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>It's also why I think Musk will be gone by this time next year. I think he is the only person in the circle now who is 'an ally' than 'a hire' and this is not going to last long because the Orange One is supremely narcissistic being colliding with another narcissistic being who doesn't <i>need</i> Trump. <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 17:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>There is one nominee that seems to stick out (at least to me), namely Doug Burgum. Or does he have some sort of skeleton in the closet that I’ve missed? <a href="/wiki/User:ScepticWombat" title="User:ScepticWombat">ScepticWombat</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ScepticWombat" title="User talk:ScepticWombat">talk</a>) 17:06, 21 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Hmm, he does appear to be a more 'generic shit, rich white guy' Republican than a real whacko. I'm going to suspect he's not hugely charismatic and passed the test the Orange One put to him: ['Q3: The Boss has made a decision which is incorrect. What do you do?' Correct Ans: 'The Boss does not make 'incorrect' decisions.'] Want to see him with Musky, though! <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 18:20, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <h2><span class="mw-headline" id="My_Idea_for_the_Children_at_Thanksgiving">My Idea for the Children at Thanksgiving</span></h2> <p>I know a lot of my family are picky and won't try stuff, so at least for the kids' table this year I am going to try 'Thank you' around the world. It's still going to be standard Thanksgiving fare, but to get them to eat what aren't nuggets and applesauce, my idea is to have everyone say 'Bon Appetite' or 'Itadakimasu' or 'Jal MeokessUumnida' or 'Guten Apetit' And take a bite of something. It's not going to be culturally relevant to food, but it will be something the younger kids can't resist. If the older kids are saying words and eating foods, there are no picky eaters. The little ones refuse to be left out. </p><p>Entirely, my plan is to fill note cards with natural language (and characters when it applies), American English versions, and English pronounciations. Last Thanksgiving these kids took a bite of mashed potatoes and then excused themselves, I want them to try the foods. Kshingm yong and a bite of turkey from the kids would be a lot more fun for the adults as well. <a href="/wiki/User:Torrent" title="User:Torrent">Torrent</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Torrent" title="User talk:Torrent">talk</a>) 12:12, 19 November 2024 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>Might sneak in 'Good bread, good meat, Good God Let's eat' as Uncle's privelege. <a href="/wiki/User:Torrent" title="User:Torrent">Torrent</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Torrent" title="User talk:Torrent">talk</a>) 10:27, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl> <h2><span class="mw-headline" id="GradeAUnderA_is_a_Trump_supporter_now">GradeAUnderA is a Trump supporter now</span></h2> <p>So apparently after making a <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUp18_QhX5w">Harris roast video</a> before the 2024 election, Grade decided to wait 2 weeks to upload his <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkwpScD8IGc">Trump "roast" video</a> which turned out to just be a Trump dicksucking video <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Sympathy5010&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Sympathy5010 (page does not exist)">Sympathy5010</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sympathy5010" title="User talk:Sympathy5010">talk</a>) 14:18, 19 November 2024 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>"GradeAUnderA". Who? <a href="/wiki/User:Impiricism" title="User:Impiricism">Impiricism</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Impiricism" title="User talk:Impiricism">talk</a>) 14:34, 19 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>A YouTuber ranter <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://youtube.fandom.com/wiki/GradeAUnderA">notable enough for Wikitubia</a> but of little importance outside that scene. First impression: seems to be a bit of a drama llama. (Also a British-born and residing Indian, why the fuck he care about American politics?) <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:BobJohnson&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:BobJohnson (page does not exist)">BobJohnson</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BobJohnson" title="User talk:BobJohnson">talk</a>) 14:53, 19 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>I think the answer to that is obvious: what happens in America affects the rest of the world. <a href="/wiki/User:Carthage" title="User:Carthage">Carthage</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carthage" title="User talk:Carthage">talk</a>) 15:02, 19 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Wow. Someone I have never about and certainly don't care about supports some idiot. You learn something every day!<a href="/wiki/User:Bob_M" title="User:Bob M">Bob</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bob_M" title="User talk:Bob M"><sup>"Life is short and (insert adjective)"</sup></a> 08:32, 20 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>I don’t think this is his news. I remember him making a video explaining his preference for Trump over Hillary back in 2016. - <a href="/wiki/User:OnlySortaDumb" title="User:OnlySortaDumb">Only Sort of Dumb</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:OnlySortaDumb" title="User talk:OnlySortaDumb">talk</a>) 09:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <h2><span class="mw-headline" id="The_atmosphere_and_the_Flood">The atmosphere and the Flood</span></h2> <p>I have seen a post at r/exchristian, in <a href="/wiki/Reddit" title="Reddit">Reddit</a>, wondering if Noah wouldn't have suffered altitude sickness as water levels rising above the Everest would have put the Ark in the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_zone" class="extiw" title="wp:Death zone" rel="nofollow"><span style="color:#477979 !important;" title="Wikipedia: Death zone">Death zone</span></a><sup><img alt="Wikipedia" src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/12px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png" decoding="async" width="12" height="12" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/18px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/24px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128" /></sup>, where humans can't live without oxygen supply. </p><p>Since Reddit is working erratically today, I'm unable to see the responses but even if we know besides it having not happened (and being physically impossible) I wonder if that's what would happen or if the atmosphere would have expanded. Just as a curiosity. <a href="/wiki/User:Panzerfaust" title="User:Panzerfaust">Panzerfaust</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Panzerfaust" title="User talk:Panzerfaust">talk</a>) 23:14, 20 November 2024 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>My guess is that - if the oxygen wasn't dissolved into the water - that it would be compressed and that might keep the level around the 20% necessary for human breathing. The real problem would be the atmospheric pressure rising and the body not being able to adjust to it. <a href="/wiki/User:Vital_Forces" title="User:Vital Forces">Vital Forces</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Vital_Forces" title="User talk:Vital Forces">talk</a>) 00:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>The Genesis Noah flood essentially belongs to a collection <i>multiple</i> rather similar ancient flood myths in the Mesopotamian area, as I understand it. I generally find it silly to rely on any of that Bible narrative (you're talking the same Bible book that regularly has people living to nearly 1000 years old), but if one must, one has to remember that the "world" of these storytellers was the region between the Tigris and Euphrates river. The mountain which Noah eventually comes to rest on is the mountains of Ararat region. (<a href="/wiki/RationalWiki:Annotated_Bible/Genesis#Genesis_8:4" title="RationalWiki:Annotated Bible/Genesis">Genesis 8:4</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Ararat" class="extiw" title="wp:Mount Ararat" rel="nofollow"><span style="color:#477979 !important;" title="Wikipedia: Mount Ararat">Mount Ararat</span></a>,<sup><img alt="Wikipedia" src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/12px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png" decoding="async" width="12" height="12" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/18px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/24px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128" /></sup> the highest mountain of this range, is only ~3900m. <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Judi" class="extiw" title="wp:Mount Judi" rel="nofollow"><span style="color:#477979 !important;" title="Wikipedia: Mount Judi">Mount Judi</span></a>,<sup><img alt="Wikipedia" src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/12px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png" decoding="async" width="12" height="12" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/18px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/24px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128" /></sup> the "traditional" mountain Noah landed on, is only ~2000m. So "15 cubits" (from <a href="/wiki/RationalWiki:Annotated_Bible/Genesis#Genesis_7:20" title="RationalWiki:Annotated Bible/Genesis">Genesis 7:20</a>, whatever the heck a cubit is) plus this most likely isn't <i>near</i> enough to get one in the "death zone". So far, I'm having difficulty finding what ancient civilization knew of "Mount Everest" (which most certainly was <i>not</i> known as "Mount Everest" then) around ~1000-3000BC; all I can say is that I'm pretty sure that Mesopotamians would have known little, if *anything*, about it... and vice versa.</dd> <dd>I think the "Occam's razor" of why there are so many flood stories in that region is that there must've been a pretty big <i>river basin</i> flood at some point (of seemingly unknown conclusive origin, though there are many hypothesis) that spooked enough people to inspire legends and mythmaking. Not thousands of meters (which would be impossible)... but enough meters to inundate everything and wreck serious havoc. Just reading up on this basin, floods are a fairly regular occurrence in this river basin (even today). A really nasty flood there at some point certainly is not out of the scope of reality. I see the Biblical retelling of this myth as a wildly exaggerated telling of such (with a crap-ton of inconsistencies in a mere three chapters). No need to really go further than that IMHO -- the evidence for a "global flood" of any sort is, as I understand it, nilch. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:BobJohnson&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:BobJohnson (page does not exist)">BobJohnson</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BobJohnson" title="User talk:BobJohnson">talk</a>) 00:19, 21 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Courtesy of <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubit" class="extiw" title="wp:Cubit" rel="nofollow"><span style="color:#477979 !important;" title="Wikipedia: Cubit">Wikipedia</span></a>:<sup><img alt="Wikipedia" src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/12px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png" decoding="async" width="12" height="12" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/18px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/24px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128" /></sup> "the cubit is an ancient unit of length based on the distance from the elbow to the tip of the middle finger."</dd> <dd>There are actually a lot of flood stories around the world. Some of these stories have been conclusively dated to the end of the last ice age. In some cases, the details of landscapes described in these stories eerily match landscapes now underwater (<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ancient-indigenous-songlines-match-long-sunken-landscape-off-australia1/">[10]</a>).</dd> <dd>As for the <i>Mesopotamian</i> flood story... well, we don't really know where the Sumerians came from. They spoke a language isolate in a region predominantly populated (even then) with speakers of Semitic languages. It's possible that the Sumerians came from a land that's now underwater. To a bunch of refugees fleeing sea level rise, the inundation of the Persian Gulf (where it's been hypothesized the Sumerians came from, specifically from what is now modern day <a href="/wiki/Bahrain" title="Bahrain">Bahrain</a>) must've seemed apocalyptic. <a href="/wiki/User:Carthage" title="User:Carthage">Carthage</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carthage" title="User talk:Carthage">talk</a>) 00:43, 21 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Goddidit" class="mw-redirect" title="Goddidit">Goddidit</a>. Either He in his infinite wisdom changed Noah and Co's lungs so the death zone didn't happen, He removed the death zone or it's something He put in later just out of perhaps spite. There's no damn point theorising 'how' because there's no real space for actual facts in organised religion. Did you know that all those fossils were simply put there to test our faith in THE LORD, for example? <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 00:55, 21 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Yes. You need to accept a whole string of other impossible things before you even start to discussing this. And if those other impossible things were fixed by miracles - why not this one?</dd> <dd>Wholly apart from the fact that it's evident that none of it happened anyway.<a href="/wiki/User:Bob_M" title="User:Bob M">Bob</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bob_M" title="User talk:Bob M"><sup>"Life is short and (insert adjective)"</sup></a> 08:07, 21 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Reading the article about the Flood, I have noticed more issues with it, at least in global scale (a highly exaggerated local one as suggested above is still a serious possibility) besides strong submarine currents that would have destroyed fragile rock formations, as those present in areas rich in granite when it erodes away: the <i>thick</i> sediment layer such event would have happened, with some remain of it that should have been present even thousands of years later at the very least in some zones and how the pressure of so much water should have left some evidence too, not to mention what about abyssal fauna that would probably have been killed by still more pressure on top of what they already have to endure.</dd> <dd>But, yeah, there's no way to rationalize this moreso after having heard as proof of the Flood arguments as <a href="/wiki/Flood_geology#If_everything_fails" title="Flood geology">this one</a> on top of the standard apologetic BS from people ignoramus of even the simplest science. <a href="/wiki/User:Panzerfaust" title="User:Panzerfaust">Panzerfaust</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Panzerfaust" title="User talk:Panzerfaust">talk</a>) 14:44, 21 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Strictly speaking from an archaeological perspective, there are plenty of civilizations that were around during the supposed date of the Flood, and they just kept trucking on. Apparently they didn't get the memo. <a href="/wiki/User:Carthage" title="User:Carthage">Carthage</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carthage" title="User talk:Carthage">talk</a>) 14:45, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <h2><span id="New_drinking_game_idea_(I_have_not_been_here_for_a_while)"></span><span class="mw-headline" id="New_drinking_game_idea_.28I_have_not_been_here_for_a_while.29">New drinking game idea (I have not been here for a while)</span></h2> <p>I got an idea for a drinking game- Transphobia Talking Points Drinking Game. </p><p>Someone cites a Bible verse, take a drink of dark ale. </p><p>Someone cites Basic Biology, take a shot of whiskey. </p><p>Someone says groomer, take a drink of tequila. </p><p>Someone says You Will Never Be A Woman, do a Jello Shot. </p><p><br /> I don't recommend playing this drinking game. I came up with it for shits and giggles. --<a href="/wiki/User:Rationalzombie94" title="User:Rationalzombie94">Trans Fem Agenda</a> 19:09, 21 November 2024 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>Never did get into hard alcohol... only beer. And not gonna lie, most beer nowadays is either American "light beer" aka water, or artificially flavored crap that hurts the stomach. It's difficult and expensive to get a proper Trappist ale or weizenbock from a traditional German brewer. <a href="/wiki/User:Impiricism" title="User:Impiricism">Impiricism</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Impiricism" title="User talk:Impiricism">talk</a>) 20:51, 21 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>You Canadians have Unibroue at least, although the now-Sapporo owned brand seems to be tightening up things as part of the overall "craft beer" decline. (Recently a Reddit seemed to state only their excellent Belgian tripel style beer <i>La Fin Du Monde</i> is being exported to the US these days, which sucks because I liked a fair bit of their catalog. Even odder, I couldn't find any Unibroue in any Calgary Alberta beer store with an online presence -- weird.) <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:BobJohnson&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:BobJohnson (page does not exist)">BobJohnson</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BobJohnson" title="User talk:BobJohnson">talk</a>) 22:12, 21 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>La Fin Du Monde is okay... not as good as a Chimay Blue or Green though IMO. Have been wanting to try the Maudite Dubbel from the company, but haven't been able to readily find it in my city. If in Alberta the best shop for alcohol in not just the province, but for all of Canada is Sherbrooke Liquor in Edmonton; not kidding about the best shop in Canada part - 'Berta with its conservative libertarian bent has the most relaxed alcohol import laws out of any province. <a href="/wiki/User:Impiricism" title="User:Impiricism">Impiricism</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Impiricism" title="User talk:Impiricism">talk</a>) 22:29, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>I wonder how "YWNBAW" is an insult when coming from woman-haters. Come to think of it, I have seen Nazis tell converts to Judaism they'll never be "real" Jews... <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://tenor.com/view/%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B0%D0%BA%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D1%80-%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BB%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BD-tucker-carlson-gif-3836607876557817069">what is going on?</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Chillpilled" title="User:Chillpilled">Chillpilled</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chillpilled" title="User talk:Chillpilled">talk</a>) 04:18, 22 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Misogynists often have a warped mindset where they believe that they treat women well (and <i>how dare they think otherwise</i>); as part of that they also <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-protecting-women-whether-they-like-it-or-not-wisconsin/">see themselves as being "protectors" of them</a>... hence YWNBAW is them defending ladies from those lesser others. The Nazi and Jewish convert thing likely has similar warped ideas I assume... perhaps a clash of discovering regular folks can become Jewish vs the idea of Jews being less than people. <a href="/wiki/User:Impiricism" title="User:Impiricism">Impiricism</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Impiricism" title="User talk:Impiricism">talk</a>) 16:35, 22 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>This is yet another aspect of <a href="/wiki/MAGA" class="mw-redirect" title="MAGA">MAGA</a> of which some of the naval-gazing to the <a href="/wiki/Good_old_days" title="Good old days">good old days</a> actually misses... while the "1950s America stereotype" certainly was far more sexist / gender-defined roles / etc. back then (and certainly *far* more hostile towards alternate sexual orientations, to the point where the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavender_Scare" class="extiw" title="wp:Lavender Scare" rel="nofollow"><span style="color:#477979 !important;" title="Wikipedia: Lavender Scare">Lavender Scare</span></a><sup><img alt="Wikipedia" src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/12px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png" decoding="async" width="12" height="12" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/18px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/24px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128" /></sup> was a thing), there also was (at least at certain purportedly "proper" levels of society) a sort of Gentlemen's Code that the rather boorish behavior of <a href="/wiki/MAGA" class="mw-redirect" title="MAGA">MAGA</a> and other similar movements would have fallen afoul of. Certainly boorish behavior existed "back in the day" among the so-thought-of-as "rougher" classes, and a touch of such (to varying degree) was allowed "among the boys" at least, even among the upper crust. But to be a boorish lout towards <i>women</i>? That would have been considered a serious "buddy, you got No Class" faux pas among the Proper Society types. (And the Washington Society of the 1950s, among many others, certainly was Proper Society types from all I know.)</dd> <dd>(There's a similar thing with <a href="/wiki/Fundamentalism" title="Fundamentalism">fundamentalism</a> too. "Back in the day" the old "mainline Protestant" Christianity dominated the American society scene. Fundamentalism was seen as the religion of the dumb gullible hicks.) <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:BobJohnson&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:BobJohnson (page does not exist)">BobJohnson</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BobJohnson" title="User talk:BobJohnson">talk</a>) 17:11, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <h2><span class="mw-headline" id="The_plot_of_the_Bolsonaro_saga_thickens">The plot of the Bolsonaro saga thickens</span></h2> <p>I don't know how to start this, but <i>Jesus Fucking Christ</i>. First, there was <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Bras%C3%ADlia_attack">an attempted terrorist attack in the Praça dos Três Poderes</a> on the 13th of this month, and the perpetrator was someone affiliated with the party which Bolsonaro belongs to, and was driven to commit the act by Bolsonaro's fake news; After that, just two days ago, it was discovered that <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/brazilian-police-arrest-five-alleged-plot-kill-president-lula-stage-coup-2024-11-19/">several people in the military, including Bolsonaro's former aide, were arrested for plotting a murder of Bolsonaro's political opponents in 2022</a>, and just today, a few hours ago, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://apnews.com/article/brazil-jair-bolsonaro-indictment-0d62fe0a7399483aee48cf3c845560ea">Bolsonaro and several of his aides were indicted</a> (That's 3 times that he's been indicted now for those who aren't counting, does the man do anything apart from commiting crimes?), and <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/bolsonaro-knew-plot-kill-lula-brazil-police-find-cnn-brasil-says-2024-11-21/">he allegedly knew of the assassination plot</a>, but unsurprisingly did nothing to stop it. <a href="/wiki/User:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan" title="User:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan">TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan" title="User talk:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan">talk</a>) 23:17, 21 November 2024 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>Read a little bit of <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Brazil">Wikipedia's page on the Politics of Brazil</a>... Brazilian politics are much more complex to Canada, the US, and the UK, where there's really only two maybe three parties that dominate. Switched to reading about Bolsonaro himself... just like Trump, I'm perplexed as to why anyone would ever vote for them. Neither figure is a pleasant person in general; how can one trust the proposed policies of a person who is not personally trustworthy? It reminds me of the meme of leopards promising that <i>no, they will not eat your face if you vote for them</i>. It's frustrating to no end that people keep doing it. <a href="/wiki/User:Impiricism" title="User:Impiricism">Impiricism</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Impiricism" title="User talk:Impiricism">talk</a>) 15:23, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl> <h2><span id="oh_sick,_i_can_edit_this_now"></span><span class="mw-headline" id="oh_sick.2C_i_can_edit_this_now">oh sick, i can edit this now</span></h2> <p>can someone help me fix my userpage :SOB: <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User:Rikeloldaboss">https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User:Rikeloldaboss</a> the userboxes are EVERYWHERE. new edit whats this? ---><sup>— Unsigned, by: <a href="/wiki/User:Rikeloldaboss" title="User:Rikeloldaboss"> Rikeloldaboss</a> / <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rikeloldaboss" title="User talk:Rikeloldaboss">talk</a> / <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/_Rikeloldaboss" title="Special:Contributions/ Rikeloldaboss">contribs</a> </sup> </p> <dl><dd>Done. You needed the userboxboxtop and userboxboxbottom templates. <a href="/wiki/User:Bongolian" title="User:Bongolian">Bongolian</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bongolian" title="User talk:Bongolian">talk</a>) 07:53, 22 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Also note that you can view the source of other people's userpages and steal whatever you like from them. It's a good way to learn. <a href="/wiki/User:IntrepidSkeptic" title="User:IntrepidSkeptic">IntrepidSkeptic</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:IntrepidSkeptic" title="User talk:IntrepidSkeptic">talk</a>) 10:43, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <h2><span class="mw-headline" id="Russia_fires_Ballistic_Missile">Russia fires Ballistic Missile</span></h2> <p>My original question was going to be why Russia fired an Intercontinental Ballistic Missile at a country right next door, but now it seems that it was a medium-range missile presumably fired from central Russia. My next question was if this was the first time a ballistic missile has ever been used in combat, but plenty of missiles have been fired during this nearly three year long war. So my final question is if ballistic missiles have ever been used in combat before the current Ukraine war. <a href="/wiki/User:Vital_Forces" title="User:Vital Forces">Vital Forces</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Vital_Forces" title="User talk:Vital Forces">talk</a>) 03:30, 22 November 2024 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>No, the first ballistic missile used in combat was the German V-2 in 1944. <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 05:16, 22 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>And there have been several uses of ballistic missiles since WWII as well, with the Scud missiles originally developed by the USSR being the most frequently used: By Egypt against Israel in the Yom Kippur War, by Iraq against first Iran during the Iran-Iraq War, then against various other countries during the Gulf War, the Afghans used them against the mujahideen and Pakistan in 1988 and during their civil war in the 1990s, and Scuds have later been used in Libya, Syria, Chechnya, Yemen and Nagorno-Karabakh as well. Iran has also used its own missiles to strike various opponents including via its proxies.</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>So, while ballistic missile attacks haven’t been prevalent since their inception in WWII, they have never been entirely absent, either. <a href="/wiki/User:ScepticWombat" title="User:ScepticWombat">ScepticWombat</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ScepticWombat" title="User talk:ScepticWombat">talk</a>) 06:19, 22 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>"Ballistic" literally means "unpowered". Mortars, rockets after their boost stage and even bullets are "ballistic" by this definition. However, when intercontinental nuclear missiles were developed they were made to enter low orbit and then drop "ballistically" onto their targets. Hence "Intercontinental Ballistic Missile". But then "Ballistic Missile" and "Nuclear Missile" started to become combined in the public consciousness. At this moment, until we know a little more about the weapon, telling us that is was "ballistic", does not tell us a lot.<a href="/wiki/User:Bob_M" title="User:Bob M">Bob</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bob_M" title="User talk:Bob M"><sup>"Life is short and (insert adjective)"</sup></a> 07:30, 22 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>'But then "Ballistic Missile" and "Nuclear Missile" started to become combined in the public consciousness'.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>I think the above sums up the reasoning hehind this. He is hoping that this news will sufficiently scare Western opinion into ditching Ukraine - his repeated dick-waving has garnered nil to even minus result [I think British opinion has hardened against Putin for repeatedly threatening to incinerate us]. He fights this war like a mafiya boss would - and because we didn't heed his 'advice' even after being shown the blade, he's decided to give Ukraine's arm a little slash.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>But this also tells us that despite the above, Putin is attempting somewhat to avoid direct war with NATO. There <i>are</i> things which he could do which would be a genuine esculation - for example, a huge spate of cyber attacks, cutting internet cables, paying Western crime groups to kill particular 'anti-Russian' individuals etc - but he has not done this. Hell, did you know that Europe is still getting some gas from Russia? Cut that off entirely; let the Euros freeze during this winter. How much of this is his own decision and how much of it was Xi perhaps literally giving him a list of 'shit you must not pull without 'consulting' us first' we perhaps will never know.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Oh, and useless factoid of the day: the V-1 was the world's first cruise missile, which is the more usual tech for missiles right now. Some of these <i>can</i> be nuclear-armed, such as the American Tomahawk. <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 14:21, 22 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd><dl><dd>Technically anything which moves through the air by itself is a "missile". A thrown rock in the literal sense would be a "missile" - and a ballistic one at that.</dd> <dd>Obviously, in military terms, these words have more specialized meanings, where a "missile" is a big complicated thing which explodes at the end of its trajectory. Such missiles can be wholly powered during flight like a cruise missile, they can be wholly unpowered (ballistic) like a glide bomb or they can have a boost stage followed by a terminal ballistic stage like an ICBM. And you could put a nuclear weapon on any of them if they were fitted out for it.</dd> <dd>The advantage of a ballistic missile dropping vertically from low atmosphere is that it is bloody hard to shoot down. Partly because of its trajectory and partly because it has no (or very little) heat signature.<a href="/wiki/User:Bob_M" title="User:Bob M">Bob</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bob_M" title="User talk:Bob M"><sup>"Life is short and (insert adjective)"</sup></a> 17:02, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>I’m not sure I follow the logic of why would Putin need to rely on Western crime groups for assassination, or why such crime groups would risk being designated as terror groups (as they almost certainly would, if they started to act like Moscow hit squads).</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>There have, apparently, already been credible and serious Russian threats against key people, such as the apparent plans to assassinate the CEO of Rheinmetall, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armin_Papperger" class="extiw" title="wp:Armin Papperger" rel="nofollow"><span style="color:#477979 !important;" title="Wikipedia: Armin Papperger">Armin Papperger.</span></a><sup><img alt="Wikipedia" src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/12px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png" decoding="async" width="12" height="12" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/18px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/24px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128" /></sup> Then there are the various “mysterious fires and explosions” at certain arms and munitions producers and storage facilities, both leading up to and during the current war. It’s also worth remembering that Putin has repeatedly (and often successfully) had dissidents and opponents assassinated in Europe for years, and well before the start of the war, too.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Similarly, there have already been cyberattacks on/in various European countries and businesses that almost certainly originated in Russia, although Putin has been able to maintain some level of plausible deniability, just as with the apparent sabotage.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>As for the gas, my guess is that reason Europe still gets some from Russia is that Putin badly needs the hard currency and has already found out that Europe is not actually going to freeze if he cuts it off entirely, though it would have to pay more for its energy needs.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>I completely agree that Putin wants to avoid a direct war with NATO and this view is reciprocated by NATO for the simple reason that it would run a very high risk of “going nuclear”. If such a Russo-NATO war was entirely conventional Russia would almost certainly just outright lose it, and since this would not be acceptable to Putin, the nuclear option would have to be taken, in which case everyone would almost certainly lose, again including Putin.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>It is indeed both possible and likely that the Russian use of a ballistic (rather than cruise) missile is yet more sabre rattling at NATO to keep the alliance from scaling up its support from Ukraine. It’s probably especially intended to keep the lame duck Biden in check and to scare off the European parts of the alliance from trying to somewhat compensate from the expected Trump cuts to the aid to Ukraine.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Putin has a lot to gain by keeping the current, if fairly limited, Russian momentum going into 2025, while pushing the narrative that Ukraine’s struggles are hopeless, in order to get Trump to give him as good a settlement as possible, if this is indeed where things are heading. <a href="/wiki/User:ScepticWombat" title="User:ScepticWombat">ScepticWombat</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ScepticWombat" title="User talk:ScepticWombat">talk</a>) 16:51, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd> <dd>Which is why I said 'huge spate' of cyber attacks etc. Like the explosions, they're currently fairly intermittent. But why use criminal gangs? Plausible deniability. It's old KGB 'craft'; if you're going to do something really iffy, you if possible pay a third party to do it for you in a manner which isn't traceable back to you - the Iranians have also been doing this for years. There is also some grounds to believe that FSB 'capabilities' in Western nations physically is relatively limited - they very well might be hoarding said capabilities for the point they 'really need them'. <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 19:44, 22 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>There is <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.businessinsider.com/iranian-operative-hired-hells-angels-for-assassination-in-us-doj-2024-1">precedent</a> for intelligence agencies hiring organized crime groups to serve as their proxies. <a href="/wiki/User:Carthage" title="User:Carthage">Carthage</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carthage" title="User talk:Carthage">talk</a>) 19:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</dd> <dd>I think it's both ways: Putin does not want to go to war with NATO, because the likelihood of it going nuclear thus <i>everyone</i> losing is very high, moreso knowing the Russian army even before this shitshow was and is much smaller than the Red Army and in that area of Europe it has just Belarus instead of the Warsaw pact, and Xi allowed to show that new toy knowing it mounted a non-nuclear warhead as a warning because in the case of nuclear war <i>everyone</i> loses, China included. To Moscow's credit, they at least supposedly warned US of the launch of the missile half an hour before.</dd> <dd>I remember how shortly after Putin's "special military operation" began Poland offered to give Ukraine some old Mig-29s no longer in use and Moscow threatened with "consequences", so no Migs in that moment, and how as time went by how many red lines were crossed by NATO to give equipment to Ukraine, receiving just threats from Russia and at worst that announcement about moving tactical nuclear weapons to Belarus after Zelensky got depleted uranium shells for the Abrams tanks. This was going to happen after the warnings about letting Kyiv use long-range missiles against targets in Russia, and I'm afraid we'll see more of this at least before Biden leaves. <a href="/wiki/User:Panzerfaust" title="User:Panzerfaust">Panzerfaust</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Panzerfaust" title="User talk:Panzerfaust">talk</a>) 22:25, 22 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>I must admit I still don’t see why criminals would risk the kind of public exposure and harsh prosecutions and crackdowns that would follow if they started acting as Moscow hit squads.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>That said, there is a nexus of criminal groups originating from or tied to Russia (incl. Chechnya) and they might be available to some extent, as they have figured in other assassinations of Russian expats. But that might be more due to the presence of Russian intelligence networks in (or outright overlaps in personnel with) this part of the criminal underworld, rather than a portent of a larger pattern.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Even criminal groups with Russian ties would have to weigh their loyalty to and rewards from Moscow against their future abilities to operate in Europe, which would almost certainly be sharply curtailed if they start conducting assassinations on Moscow’s behalf. Especially considering the heightened tensions and thus intelligence surveillance, I don't see many criminal groups considering becoming Moscow's hired killers worth the risk.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>That’s why I think it’s probably more likely that any assassinations will follow the patterns of those we’ve already seen: The perpetrators are probably not openly tied to Moscow (i.e. enough distance to provide plausible deniability), but also evince enough of a “Russian odour” to create a clear impression that the murder was ultimately carried out on Moscow’s behalf, thus providing a clear warning to other dissidents and critics. <a href="/wiki/User:ScepticWombat" title="User:ScepticWombat">ScepticWombat</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ScepticWombat" title="User talk:ScepticWombat">talk</a>) 08:30, 24 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd> <dd>And some groups <i>would</i> turn down the 'hiring' offer; though I suspect more out of suspicion it's an agent provocateur than anything else. But you're forgetting a critical point; if you're a leader in an organised grime group which runs brothels with sex slaves, traffics heroin, extorts businesses and corrupts authorities you've kind of crossed the point where 'harsh prosecutions and crackdowns' really have an effect in dissuading you some time ago. There is also the little fact that law enforcement generally need actual evidence to start making arrests and they've learned from experience that not only can they afford <i>very</i> good lawyers but usually know exactly 'how the enemy thinks' and thus, can stay one step ahead. <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 16:00, 24 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <h2><span class="mw-headline" id="61_years">61 years</span></h2> <p>Since Aldous Huxley and CS Lewis died. <a href="/wiki/User:Anna_Livia" title="User:Anna Livia">Anna Livia</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Anna_Livia" title="User talk:Anna Livia">talk</a>) 14:29, 22 November 2024 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>To be clear. They both died on 22 November 1963. Well, there's a bit of trivia! <a href="/wiki/User:Spud" title="User:Spud">Spud</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Spud" title="User talk:Spud">talk</a>) 15:18, 22 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Oh, and Anthony Burgess, best-known as the author of <i><a href="/wiki/A_Clockwork_Orange" title="A Clockwork Orange">A Clockwork Orange</a></i>, died on 22 November 1993. <a href="/wiki/User:Spud" title="User:Spud">Spud</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Spud" title="User talk:Spud">talk</a>) 15:25, 22 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>The <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution">Orange Revolution</a> began in Ukraine on 22 November 2004. <a href="/wiki/User:Impiricism" title="User:Impiricism">Impiricism</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Impiricism" title="User talk:Impiricism">talk</a>) 15:32, 22 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Are you missing the fact it was 61 years since JFK as assassinated? How come <i>I</i> remember this even though I'm not even American? <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 16:24, 22 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>(Corrected the numbers)</dd> <dd>'Not stating the obvious.' <a href="/wiki/User:Anna_Livia" title="User:Anna Livia">Anna Livia</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Anna_Livia" title="User talk:Anna Livia">talk</a>) 16:37, 22 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>What is obvious outside the USA is clearly not obvious to 75 million Americans, so it's a fair call from all us "danged furriners".<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Aloysius_the_Gaul&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Aloysius the Gaul (page does not exist)">Aloysius the Gaul</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Aloysius_the_Gaul" title="User talk:Aloysius the Gaul">talk</a>) 23:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>I'm surprised you're concerned about C.S. Lewis. I'm not exactly a fan of him and I'd expect a heavily rationalist and secular userbase to feel similarly. Nothing wrong with that, of course, it's just that he's not someone I really think about. <a href="/wiki/User:IntrepidSkeptic" title="User:IntrepidSkeptic">IntrepidSkeptic</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:IntrepidSkeptic" title="User talk:IntrepidSkeptic">talk</a>) 04:38, 23 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Lewis might not be to your tastes, or those of most here, but he <i>is</i> a significant and literarily important author. He's as significant as Huxley and Kennedy in his own way. <a href="/wiki/User:Kencolt" title="User:Kencolt">Kencolt</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kencolt" title="User talk:Kencolt">talk</a>) 15:50, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</dd> <dd>The trio of notable deaths on 22 November 1963 is a meme. <a href="/wiki/User:Anna_Livia" title="User:Anna Livia">Anna Livia</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Anna_Livia" title="User talk:Anna Livia">talk</a>) 11:47, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p>And today, 23 November 2024, marks 34 years since Roald Dahl died. <a href="/wiki/User:Spud" title="User:Spud">Spud</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Spud" title="User talk:Spud">talk</a>) 16:55, 23 November 2024 (UTC) </p><p>Mustn't forget the first manifestation of a blue Police Box (not being a Whovian myself). <a href="/wiki/User:Anna_Livia" title="User:Anna Livia">Anna Livia</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Anna_Livia" title="User talk:Anna Livia">talk</a>) 00:44, 24 November 2024 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>Arguably, that was something being <i>born</i>. <a href="/wiki/User:Kencolt" title="User:Kencolt">Kencolt</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kencolt" title="User talk:Kencolt">talk</a>) 01:56, 24 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl> <h2><span class="mw-headline" id="Shrooms_and_Ethics_in_Bodycam_Journalism">Shrooms and Ethics in Bodycam Journalism</span></h2> <p>I posted <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPCs_Cgasg8">a video of a guy tripping on shrooms as he got arrested</a> on the Discord and someone said they think channels like this are exploitative and harmful. I certainly agree that the sphere is pretty chuddy for obvious reasons, but I'm not sure the format itself necessarily has to be. Even under socialism, we'll need some form of law enforcement to deal with drunk drivers, domestic abuse and the like, and some people really don't handle that situation well! Do you think it's ethical to consume this content? What are your thoughts? <a href="/wiki/User:IntrepidSkeptic" title="User:IntrepidSkeptic">IntrepidSkeptic</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:IntrepidSkeptic" title="User talk:IntrepidSkeptic">talk</a>) 10:46, 23 November 2024 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>This guy was on someone else's private property (store owner), and out in public (to and from the store). He has no right to privacy with regard to being filmed in these situations. The filming in this case is beneficial to the public since it can be used as court evidence and has the added benefit of helping to keep the cops in line to not themselves do illegal shit. As to whether it's ethical for you to view this, I don't have an opinion. I think the bigger question is does it benefit you to view this type of material? There seems to be a big audience for this type of material nowadays, mainly as entertainment I think, which is not so great. There are ways that I think this can be beneficial to view though. If someone has acted badly in public or in stores before, or might be tempted to do so in the future, then watching some of these videos might be helpful as a preventative. <a href="/wiki/User:Bongolian" title="User:Bongolian">Bongolian</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bongolian" title="User talk:Bongolian">talk</a>) 18:39, 23 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Given my experience being in psychiatric care due to drug-induced psychosis, having many family members who struggle with drug addiction, and knowing the extremes of mental illness first hand and through my education, I’d said filming anyone intoxicated when they are cognitively compromised is only justifiable provided the filming can be used to benefit the person filmed, benefit members of certain relevant marginalized communities, or is necessary for the purpose of public safety (where there considerable risk of someone being victimized). Otherwise it’s a violation of the individuals consent, and is not treating them with any resemblance of moral dignity. You have to keep in mind that with such examples we may know this individual to be under the influence of some drug voluntarily — but people also generalize to cases where people have been drugged against their will or are in the throws of psychotic episode (such as with schizophrenia). Normalizing filming people acting erratic in public may seem in many cases “deserved” but we don’t always have the context necessary to determine whether or not it really is the fault of the person acting erratically. This is all to say it depends, but generally if it isn’t necessary for the protection of someone vulnerable then it isn’t ethically acceptable either. - <a href="/wiki/User:OnlySortaDumb" title="User:OnlySortaDumb">Only Sort of Dumb</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:OnlySortaDumb" title="User talk:OnlySortaDumb">talk</a>) 00:41, 24 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <h2><span class="mw-headline" id="I_am_taking_a_Crack_at_learning_Biblical_Greek_again.">I am taking a Crack at learning Biblical Greek again.</span></h2> <p>Trying to learn the Greek alphabet is a huge challenge. --<a href="/wiki/User:Rationalzombie94" title="User:Rationalzombie94">Trans Fem Agenda</a> 22:10, 23 November 2024 (UTC) </p> <h2><span class="mw-headline" id="Thought_Experiment:_Vienna_Convention_DUI_Plate">Thought Experiment: Vienna Convention DUI Plate</span></h2> <p>This thought has been with me for over a year, but here it goes. What would a DUI plate (aka a whiskey plate) look like in Europe under the Vienna Convention? <a href="/wiki/User:TheEternalOutsider" title="User:TheEternalOutsider">TheEternalOutsider</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TheEternalOutsider" title="User talk:TheEternalOutsider">talk</a>) 13:49, 24 November 2024 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>My design proposal is that DUI license plates have a burnt orange colored bar on the left, as opposed to the blue bar on a regular license plate. Furthermore, any national symbols other than the country's ISO-assigned letter code are replaced with a new ISO-approved symbol for DUI. <a href="/wiki/User:TheEternalOutsider" title="User:TheEternalOutsider">TheEternalOutsider</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TheEternalOutsider" title="User talk:TheEternalOutsider">talk</a>) 13:49, 24 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>I had to search <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.danielsrothman.com/blog/2015/10/what-are-whiskey-plates/">what a "whiskey plate" is</a>... they do not exist in Canada to my knowledge; if a person drives dangerously or gets into accidents (doesn't even have to be with another vehicle specifically), they get fined, their mandatory vehicle insurance goes up, they may be forced to take driving classes (that they must pay for), and ultimately they might have their license to drive suspended for long periods. The basic reasoning of whiskey plates is easy to comprehend, though I would argue that they have the potential to cause a lot more harm than good. Worst case scenario would be them being an unfair identifying source for abuse of people who genuinely are trying to improve. <a href="/wiki/User:Impiricism" title="User:Impiricism">Impiricism</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Impiricism" title="User talk:Impiricism">talk</a>) 15:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>In the UK, folks convicted for drink/drugged driving almost always get driving bans [we're talking years], which means the only folks who'd get these would be those who have had said bans etc expire. So why bother doing this plate thing? <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 17:09, 24 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>I'd never heard of whiskey plates either. And according to the above link, they're now only issued in 3 out of the 50 states in the US. I think it's really pointless to speculate on what they might look like in other countries because I have to agree with Impiricism and KarmaPolice that they're not a good idea. Convicted drivers should serve lengthy bans, but they shouldn't be branded for life. <a href="/wiki/User:Spud" title="User:Spud">Spud</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Spud" title="User talk:Spud">talk</a>) 17:47, 24 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <h2><span id="They_gathered_up_this_country,_sold_it_to_the_devil,_and_now_it's_going_to_hell,_and_they_wonder_how._(Excerpt_from_this_song)"></span><span class="mw-headline" id="They_gathered_up_this_country.2C_sold_it_to_the_devil.2C_and_now_it.27s_going_to_hell.2C_and_they_wonder_how._.28Excerpt_from_this_song.29">They gathered up this country, sold it to the devil, and now it's going to hell, and they wonder how. (Excerpt from <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8pywyGywWg">this song</a>)</span></h2> <p><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://apnews.com/article/trump-project-2025-administration-nominees-843f5ff20131ccba5f056e7ccc5baf23">Trump is putting several people involved with Project 2025 in positions of power</a>. If any of the moderates who voted for Trump is seeing this, we warned you. <a href="/wiki/User:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan" title="User:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan">TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan" title="User talk:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan">talk</a>) 17:38, 24 November 2024 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>The "moderate" Trump voter doesn't exist. <a href="/wiki/User:Carthage" title="User:Carthage">Carthage</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carthage" title="User talk:Carthage">talk</a>) 17:45, 24 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>I don't mean the 'Vote Trump every presidential election and believe everything he says' kind of voter, I mean the 'Moderate who voted for him because of naïveté about him and his policies' kind of voter. <a href="/wiki/User:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan" title="User:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan">TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan" title="User talk:TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan">talk</a>) 17:50, 24 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>They're also known as the "low information voter" or "misinformation voter", who are almost as difficult to dose with reality. <a href="/wiki/User:Bongolian" title="User:Bongolian">Bongolian</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bongolian" title="User talk:Bongolian">talk</a>) 19:10, 24 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <h2><span id="Recent_elections,_to_what_extent_is_it_all_about_global_economics?"></span><span class="mw-headline" id="Recent_elections.2C_to_what_extent_is_it_all_about_global_economics.3F">Recent elections, to what extent is it all about global economics?</span></h2> <p>Some time back, elsewhere I saw discussion of a Financial Times article (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://archive.is/ktYKs">non-paywalled copy</a>) arguing that the US election, the UK election before it, and further recent elections, were all decided by global economics getting shaky due to pandemic after-effects, war, etc., bringing financial strain to populations. The good and bad moves made by the campaigning sides largely didn't matter at all, the argument goes. Regardless of the ideology of incumbents and which policies they push, they're automatically doomed to be rejected in favor of the opposition as soon as widespread economic shakiness like this sets in. Is this too reductive a view, or does it get to the heart of the matter? Are all the other things, the focus of nearly all debate surrounding the elections, dwarfed in significance? --<a href="/wiki/User:ApooftGnegiol" title="User:ApooftGnegiol">ApooftGnegiol</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ApooftGnegiol" title="User talk:ApooftGnegiol">talk</a>) 18:54, 24 November 2024 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://abcnews.go.com/538/immigration-swung-voters-color-trump/story?id=116016407">The immigration/border issue played a major role too</a>. Arizona was the reddest swing state this year, and it's also a state <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.azfamily.com/2024/10/26/arizona-lawmakers-agree-theres-an-immigration-crisis-disagree-solutions/">where people are very angry about the border</a>. <a href="/wiki/File:Pizza_SLICE.gif" class="image"><img alt="Pizza SLICE.gif" src="/w/images/thumb/3/37/Pizza_SLICE.gif/25px-Pizza_SLICE.gif" decoding="async" width="25" height="22" srcset="/w/images/thumb/3/37/Pizza_SLICE.gif/38px-Pizza_SLICE.gif 1.5x, /w/images/thumb/3/37/Pizza_SLICE.gif/50px-Pizza_SLICE.gif 2x" data-file-width="750" data-file-height="661" /></a><a href="/wiki/User:DuceMoosolini" title="User:DuceMoosolini"><span style="color:green"><b>Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano</b></span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:DuceMoosolini" title="User talk:DuceMoosolini"><span style="color:red"><sup><i>Make a Reservation</i></sup></span></a> 19:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Immigration has sure been a major political theme across the Western world of late. The article briefly touches on that as well, suggesting that instead of inflation+unemployment, a new idea of a "misery index" for how a population deems its situation could be inflation+immigration instead. Immigration is also linked to larger global developments much like inflation is, but policy can affect it more firmly and directly. --<a href="/wiki/User:ApooftGnegiol" title="User:ApooftGnegiol">ApooftGnegiol</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ApooftGnegiol" title="User talk:ApooftGnegiol">talk</a>) 19:31, 24 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd> <dd>I think the anti-immigration moves etc is a symptom of the wider disease, not the cause. And the cause is this: the advanced-democratic world never politically 'dealt with' the after-effects of the 07-08 'Neoliberal Crisis', and we've been slogging about that muddy field since then - the war, pandemic, inflation spikes etc have merely been exacerbating factors. For example, here in the UK we suffered worse in the pandemic because of 'Austerity' in the '10s [brought in after bank bailouts meant 'there was no money left'] made our nation in every respect a lot <i>less</i> resilient.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>I will also argue that Corp interests and Third Way between them have proved simultaneously 'too strong' but 'too weak'. The former because there's enough strength left in them to resist any genuine 'left-wing'/'populist' moves to even simply getting capitalism functioning 'fairly' again but they have proven too weak/timid to be able to confront <i>right-wing</i> populism and the authoritarians who use them for their own malign dreams. A lot of shit we're dealing with now is due to their decisions way <i>before</i> 2008; the Big Public are susceptible to fake news because you for a generation encouraged a passive democracy where the voters only turn out to vote so you deliberately didn't bother building up voting blocs or even simply educating them, while the increasing hardening of class into caste while all the while pretending <i>class no longer exists</i> and the malign arrogance of giving poor people lectures in 'personal responsibility' while proving to be the biggest lazy welfare mamas in town [this is worse than it looks because it's reducing arguments to 'zero-sum games' which I personally describe as 'lifeboat politics' - throwing twenty people in a boat with 15 MREs and then showing them the dozens in the water swimming towards them...]</dd></dl> <dl><dd>To quote Gramsci: 'The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters.' And while history doesn't repeat itself, it does have a tendency to rhyme...</dd></dl> <dl><dd><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/3871147-the-21st-centurys-gramsci-problem/">https://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/3871147-the-21st-centurys-gramsci-problem/</a></dd></dl> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 19:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>I'm getting towards the end of Brian Merchant's book <i>Blood in the Machine</i>, and as it happens, he mentions toward the end a Brookings Institute commentary. The commentary argues that automation in industry, which displaces workers, also increases the Red-Blue divide, with the displaced workers more likely to vote for "radical political change", whatever that happens to be.<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.brookings.edu/articles/automation-perpetuates-the-red-blue-divide/">[11]</a> The commentary is based on the statewide results of the 2016 election in which Shitler won the first time. The automation tech bro CEOs, for the most part, bought his second election this year with the help of his xenophobic rhetoric, that miscast their problems as "<a href="/wiki/Other" title="Other">other</a>" rather than the unrestrained tech CEOs who bought him. <a href="/wiki/User:Bongolian" title="User:Bongolian">Bongolian</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bongolian" title="User talk:Bongolian">talk</a>) 19:37, 24 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Fascism is really appealing to the executive class because it redirects class resentment away from them and towards whatever minority they've decided to scapegoat. <a href="/wiki/User:Carthage" title="User:Carthage">Carthage</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carthage" title="User talk:Carthage">talk</a>) 19:39, 24 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd> <dd>I wouldn't describe that as a 'Red-Blue divide', Bongolian; I would call that more a divide between those who like the current status quo and those who don't - and this cuts through political lines; a huge amount of folks who voted Labour and Democrat this year did so not because they liked or supported their shitty Third Way, but because they hated the alternative more, just like a decent % of Tory/Reform and Republican voters did so because they felt the other side would take <i>their</i> advantages away. The problem with automation and coming AI is again, the old-fashioned Marxian 'Crisis in Capitalism' - aka capital has developed the means to make product with so little labour that labour can no longer <i>afford</i> to buy the products it makes, thus making the whole system gum up - the spiralling debt-mountains from corps to the state to the individual suggests we're increasingly only dodging this crash-point by constantly magicking up 'money' to keep the show on the road for a bit longer. <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 19:58, 24 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Looking at the longer-term picture, there's also now a rise in left-wing populism in Europe, as in France and Germany where a new left grows, and in the Nordic countries where the old left adapts and changes as in Denmark (and expect Sweden to follow along fully). But this is populism with features progressive people don't like, it is social conservatism mixed with economic left or sometimes just Third Way ideas (or a varying blend). It adopts the xenophobia of the right-wing populists so as to steal their appeal, and sometimes, like in Germany and France and in countries where it goes illiberal (like Hungary) it also goes "anti-West" and anti-EU and flirts with Putin. This may well grow to be the main competition to the old ideologies and the right-wing populist challengers. --<a href="/wiki/User:ApooftGnegiol" title="User:ApooftGnegiol">ApooftGnegiol</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ApooftGnegiol" title="User talk:ApooftGnegiol">talk</a>) 20:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd> <dd>However, social progressivism as-is has compromised itself by a too-close linking with Third Way - after all, it <i>was</i> the hope of the folks like Biden in the 80s that if only we could 'have more social progress' we wouldn't <i>need</i> to actually work on actual economic inequalities. What's more, I think a decent % of said progressives have been angered/dismayed/saddened by the shallowness/ineffectiveness of their 'past reforms', mainly due to a) a lack of Big Public 'buy-in' and b) effective neutering by the NeoLib elites the moment it steps on their toes [or lessens their amount of money/power possessed]. In some respects, they tried a kind of 'revolution from above' with some very tepid allies.</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>It is perfectly possible to be on the side of 'societal progress' while not being 'a member of the woke brigade'; a lot of this is merely admitting that for a lot of your 'electoral friends' they are of limited to nil interest and as such we're giving it less priority in speeches, legislation plans etc. One good example of this was British Labour under Harold Wilson in the 60s; we had a lot of 'liberal social reforms' which dealt with a lot of the woke causes of this era [homosexuality, censorship, abolition of hanging etc] but Wilson officially rarely backed them - instead he merely gave room for senior politicians to 'make the case' for it and if they could snowball enough support for it to get it into law. In a way, he scored good 'cakeism' - he wasn't hugely associated with the 'woke reforms' by those who didn't like them but he got a bit of credit by those who did like them that he didn't actually block them. And we have to remember, a lot of the minorities progressives supposedly support are also poor and therefore, more left-wing economics would instantly benefit them too.</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Put glibly; we tried your way for forty years and it didn't really work. It's time for another strategy to be attempted. <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 21:17, 24 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>We shouldn't throw advocacy for social minorities to the wayside. There's nothing stopping someone from being both a social and economic progressive at the same time. They kind of go together in a way, and lot of progressives are dead-set <i>against</i> "woke capitalism" because capitalists don't actually care about the changes needed to bring about equality. It's "performative wokeness." The fact that there are a few token women and people of color now in power does not do anything to end the structures of power that harm minorities. The takeaway to "woke capitalism" shouldn't be class reductionism and rejection of social justice, it should be to fight back against neoliberal co-option of social justice movements, and the hate mills that <i>also</i> have a vested interest in tying a perception of social justice activism to the socioeconomic elites. <a href="/wiki/User:Carthage" title="User:Carthage">Carthage</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carthage" title="User talk:Carthage">talk</a>) 21:25, 24 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>There's a minority both socially and economically progressive. Indeed what I had in mind when I just wrote 'progressive' earlier. That however does not appeal to the masses, and is a way only tried before in the form of the "old social democracy" that's long gone out of fashion. It seems like there's currently a polarization in which the majority is split into two camps, where in one of them supporting the old "establishment" goes hand in hand with social liberalism or indifference, while in the other, social conservatism or even a socially reactionary attitude goes hand in hand with wanting change, regardless of whether the change is otherwise to the left or the right. Yeah, this seems to point to the most likely "new left" of the future. I don't care much for what I read a socialist describe and reject as the politics of "corporate feminism" either. It's just a shame that when a new way is to be tried, blind contrarianism and scapegoating of minorities has to be blended into the mix by popular demand, as that's what the majority craves. --<a href="/wiki/User:ApooftGnegiol" title="User:ApooftGnegiol">ApooftGnegiol</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ApooftGnegiol" title="User talk:ApooftGnegiol">talk</a>) 22:33, 24 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd> <dd>You're throwing terms out all over the shop. So, what socially would you regard as 'dead centre' of American social attitudes right now? <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 23:52, 24 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Dead center? The "dead center" is firmly in the right. But that doesn't mean we should give up activism for, say, trans rights. If you have a left-wing that's <i>not</i> motivated by a fundamental belief in solidarity and equality, then I would call that a left-wing that has betrayed its values. Economic justice <i>is</i> social justice. The <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Left" class="extiw" title="wp:New Left" rel="nofollow"><span style="color:#477979 !important;" title="Wikipedia: New Left">New Left</span></a><sup><img alt="Wikipedia" src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/12px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png" decoding="async" width="12" height="12" srcset="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/18px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 1.5x, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/24px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128" /></sup> of the 1960s got this. The Black Panther Party got this. Hell, plenty of people today get this. Hbomberguy produced an entire video about how "woke capitalism" is merely just a marketing stunt. It's a recognized phenomenon in progressive circles that established structures of power will try to co-opt liberatory movements to rob them of their revolutionary value and bring them in-line with the status quo. We should combat the fact that the Overton Window is being pulled to the right by trying to pull it back left. We don't go right with it. Marginalized people don't stop existing just because recognizing that they exist and have their own grievances becomes inconvenient to politicos, and they won't stop agitating for their rights either. <a href="/wiki/User:Carthage" title="User:Carthage">Carthage</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carthage" title="User talk:Carthage">talk</a>) 00:08, 25 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd> <dd>But the centre can't be right-wing. The right wing is right wing, oddly enough. If right-wing positions were 'centre', that would become the <i>new</i> centre and I assume the 'further right' becoming the right. Overton windows shift all the time; for example the idea that women should be permitted to vote [or even all men should be allowed to] was a 'left-wing position' in about 1900, while the centre was a very tepid 'hmm, I'm not sure' and the right was 'over my dead body'. This is part of why social reactionaries are getting more and more shitty; American fundies are still peddling the same old shit they were in the 1980s and <i>then</i> it was perhaps 'a bit on the conservative side' but now is full-on 'reactionary' and they kind of know it in their heart of hearts [though don't want to admit it].</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>But now to the main point; a) what evidence do you use to believe the 'dead centre' is firmly right and b) can you provide a kind of 'example line' where you think they've got to socially? <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 00:47, 25 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>How do you define "left" or "right"? If they're just sections of a map, then I suppose you're right. In some cases, even antisemitism can be seen as a "centrist" position. And I myself have argued before that politics is ultimately contextual, so you're preaching to the choir. This isn't mutually exclusive with the notion that "left" and "right" also carry certain connotations with them, that can convey a person's general set of beliefs with a short label. So when I said, in response to "what socially would you regard as dead center of American social attitudes right now," the fact that I said "it's firmly on the right" has obvious connotations of "it's becoming more conservative." Was that a poor choice of words on my part in response to what I perceive as a "gotcha" question? Maybe. I don't appreciate games like this, KP. Trying to distract from my criticism of your contention that the left should embrace class reductionism, and that the "economic justice advocates are separate people from social justice advocates" talking point is, a) demonstrably an overgeneralization, b) the result of neoliberal co-option of liberatory movements a la "woke capitalism," and c) a reactionary talking point peddled by grifters who deliberately conflate woke capitalism with genuine social justice activism and then pass that conflation (and its associated connotations) off to their <i>very</i> big audiences. In case I'm wrong, then I apologize. <a href="/wiki/User:Carthage" title="User:Carthage">Carthage</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carthage" title="User talk:Carthage">talk</a>) 00:59, 25 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd> <dd>Am I a person who plays games? Or engages in gotya? As you've seemingly completely missed the point I was trying to make, I'll spell it out.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Here in Blighty, I hear a ton of crud all the time about 'how the British people are conservative' and all that [I blame the fact partly because I watch GB News etc]. But it turns out when you actually do proper <i>polling</i> on their views they're more socially liberal than given credit for; that for example about two thirds are 'very worried' about climate change, 75% believe that 'government action' should be main/primary driver for change on that front and 49% think transphobia is a serious issue in the country.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Welcome to the 'centre' of the British people's social views. Not like you'd know this from our shitty media, politicians and that cess-pit which is social media, though! Thus me asking; 'what is the American <i>people's</i> 'centre'? Because I have a suspicion that here in the UK, a lot of the perceived 'right swing' socially was not because there were more of them, but they simply got a lot louder and the media etc amplified them. That in some way this is a positive development, because like with the 'woke capitalists', these fuckers have merely dropped the pretence, shown their true colours and god, it's horrible. It's like what I've argued before; that when it came down to <i>policy</i> there wasn't much difference between a 'moderate Republican' and 'MAGA' - only the style and tone was different, and now the latter has repeatedly fucked over the former in full view of all so we all know now where they really stand.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>I admit, I am a bit on the 'Old Left' side of things, but not so hidebound to see anything that not class as 'false consciousness'. Just that ultimately, a lot of the issues regarding minorities and so on is about class - for example, one of the major issues facing Native Americans is the fact they have so little <i>intergenerational capital</i> because they were so violently shoved into an extreme underclass position and then held down there, while a lot of the anti-immigrant rhetoric is down to the 'labour aristocracy' fearful of competition eroding their relatively cushy positions. No, what I advocate is to <i>primarily</i> focus on 'economic justice' and to make that the centrepiece of campaigns, stressing universality over factional interests, telling any 'performative wokeness' to go to hell while doing some actual effective reforms which would help social justice [for example, police reforms which both increase it's competence <i>and</i> reduces the institutional racism] <i>without</i> it explicitly being labelled as such [I would ban terms like diversity, equity, inclusion and intersectionality from all official documents, for example]. Lastly, social justice half the time sucks when it comes to propaganda. I mean <i>abolish</i> the police? Come on, surveys show that even a majority of black Americans support the concept of policing! It makes us look like a bunch of out of touch cranky weirdos. <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 02:50, 25 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>You have to admit that when you bandy about terms like "woke brigade," and you react more harshly to my point that "the problem isn't as much social justice as it is the perception that woke capitalism creates and the right-wing exploits" than to "It's just a shame that when a new way is to be tried, blind contrarianism and scapegoating of minorities has to be blended into the mix by popular demand, as that's what the majority craves," (which you didn't comment on at all) that it's understandable that leaves a certain impression. I'll fully admit to being wrong with my impression that you're a class reductionist, but I think that impression is still an understandable one. Framing matters, and the way progressivism has been framed in this thread, as basically being "woke capitalism that doesn't give a shit about economic justice," (cf: "However, social progressivism as-is has compromised itself by a too-close linking with Third Way."/"And we have to remember, a lot of the minorities progressives supposedly support are also poor and therefore, more left-wing economics would instantly benefit them too.") is what I take issue with. From what I see, it's the <i>progressives</i> who are advocating for policies like a minimum-wage increase, universal healthcare, and public housing expansion/protection. Biden only promised student debt relief in 2020 <i>because</i> of pressure from his progressive flank. <a href="/wiki/User:Carthage" title="User:Carthage">Carthage</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carthage" title="User talk:Carthage">talk</a>) 03:03, 25 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd> <dd>Yes, I reacted a bit harshly on this. It's a sore spot of mine, I admit. I hail from minorities that said brigade never really gave a toss about, from a class ignored by previous, have had to stomach many condescending lectures on 'my privilege' and similar and have had enough crash-ups with them over the years that it every well <i>could</i> have spun me into the arms of the hard right [let us remember, Mussolini was a socialist in his youth...]. Even now, the words 'social justice' conjure up in my head rainbow lanyards, horrible 'diversity' training, tokenistic corp crap, bourgeois women asking/expecting 'female solidarity' with the working-class women they exploit on a daily basis, 'degrowth' types demanding the poor consume less now and never aspire to have nice stuff, militant vegans, anti-policing cranks and the very earnest 'human gramophones' who talk in polysyllabic jargon and organise the occasional heresy trials within their little communities because they have little to nil power on the actual world.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Do the right-wing exploit the above? Sure. But all the above comes also from direct personal observation [and I'm amicable towards the goals of social justice]. More importantly, I came to the conclusion some time ago that all too many 'social justice' are distinctly iffy in smell - that all too often, it ignores the class divisions <i>within</i> the minority - the 'bourgeois woman wanting sisterhood with the working class women they exploit' and guess who's oh so often are the self-appointed leaders for 'their people'? I noticed this most glaringly in #MeToo; almost nil coverage of the millions of working class women who have to deal with all that disgusting crap day in/out and with even less of a platform to be heard or weapons to fight back with. Seven years later, what did it actually achieve apart from 'increasing awareness' and perhaps sending a very small clutch of slimeballs to the sin-bin? Almost fuck all, like most of the other social justice campaigns I've seen over the years.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>It's why I say social justice got neutered because it was too tight with Third Way. That every time there has been a genuine 'revolutionary upsurge' [BLM, Grenfell, Banking Crisis] the movement's leadership has either decided, was persuaded and/or was tricked into funnelling it into supporting Third Way ends and means - directing folks to passively vote for the 'right' party and basically, let them get on with it [they don't] and that energy is then dissipated. And as a result, it now has a terrible smell about it and the term should be retired from folks vocab and that strategy book burned. <a href="/wiki/User:KarmaPolice" title="User:KarmaPolice">KarmaPolice</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarmaPolice" title="User talk:KarmaPolice">talk</a>) 05:26, 25 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>OK, I can understand this. Thank you for clarifying. <a href="/wiki/User:Carthage" title="User:Carthage">Carthage</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carthage" title="User talk:Carthage">talk</a>) 05:33, 25 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <h2><span class="mw-headline" id="Reddit_problems">Reddit problems</span></h2> <p>Has anyone else been having problems with Reddit lately? Like it not loading correctly, or at all in some cases? 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