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href="./../search.php?author_id=100477&sr=posts&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8">50</a></dd> <dd class="profile-joined"><strong>Joined:</strong> March 11th, 2005, 3:24 pm</dd> <dd class="profile-custom-field profile-phpbb_location"><strong>Location:</strong> Connecticut</dd> <dd class="profile-contact"> <strong>Contact:</strong> <div class="dropdown-container dropdown-left"> <a href="#" class="dropdown-trigger" title="Contact Jastiv"> <i class="icon fa-commenting-o fa-fw icon-lg" aria-hidden="true"></i><span class="sr-only">Contact Jastiv</span> </a> <div class="dropdown"> <div class="pointer"><div class="pointer-inner"></div></div> <div class="dropdown-contents contact-icons"> <div> <a href="https://www.icq.com/people/9607695/" title="ICQ"> <span class="contact-icon phpbb_icq-icon">ICQ</span> </a> <a href="http://wograld.sourceforge.net" title="Website" class="last-cell"> <span class="contact-icon phpbb_website-icon">Website</span> </a> </div> </div> </div> </div> </dd> </dl> <div class="postbody"> <div id="post_content649588"> <h3 class="first"> <a href="./../viewtopic.php?p=649588&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8#p649588">Are Programers inherently better game designers?</a> </h3> <ul class="post-buttons"> <li> <a href="./../posting.php?mode=quote&p=649588&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8" title="Reply with quote" class="button button-icon-only"> <i class="icon fa-quote-left fa-fw" aria-hidden="true"></i><span class="sr-only">Quote</span> </a> </li> </ul> <p class="author"> <a class="unread" href="./../viewtopic.php?p=649588&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8#p649588" title="Post"> <i class="icon fa-file fa-fw icon-lightgray icon-md" aria-hidden="true"></i><span class="sr-only">Post</span> </a> <span class="responsive-hide">by <strong><a href="./../memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=100477&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8" class="username">Jastiv</a></strong> » </span><time datetime="2019-12-05T02:45:31+00:00">December 5th, 2019, 2:45 am</time> </p> <div class="content">Do you think that programmers are inherently better game designers than say artists? writers? music composers? bug reporters?<br> <br> I know obviously game design is a complex thing and includes level design. Game design also encompasses all of those disciplines (code,art,music, writing etc) and more, but I'll be honestly, some times I come across games that I'm like "what were the developers thinking this isn't even fun." even thought it seems to run okay, games art looks fine, but then when I try to play it I get sick of it real fast. I don't know if it is bad levels, not enough variety, don't know where to go or what?<br> <br> I don't really want to pick on certain open source games with free cultural assets and say they suck (because a lot of proprietary games suck as well) but sometimes I'm just like "what is wrong with this game is design, but its like I can't put my finger on exactly why it sucks.</div> <div id="sig649588" class="signature"><a href="http://wogralddev.blogspot.com/" class="postlink">http://wogralddev.blogspot.com/</a><br> <br> Wograld - our graphics requirements are less demanding.</div> </div> </div> <div class="back2top"> <a href="#top" class="top" title="Top"> <i class="icon fa-chevron-circle-up fa-fw icon-gray" aria-hidden="true"></i> <span class="sr-only">Top</span> </a> </div> </div> </div> <div id="p649601" class="post has-profile bg1"> <div class="inner"> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile649601"> <dt class="has-profile-rank no-avatar"> <div class="avatar-container"> </div> <a href="./../memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=141610&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8" style="color: #AA4444;" class="username-coloured">Tad_Carlucci</a> </dt> <dd class="profile-rank">Inactive Developer</dd> <dd class="profile-posts"><strong>Posts:</strong> <a href="./../search.php?author_id=141610&sr=posts&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8">503</a></dd> <dd class="profile-joined"><strong>Joined:</strong> April 24th, 2016, 4:18 pm</dd> </dl> <div class="postbody"> <div id="post_content649601"> <h3 > <a href="./../viewtopic.php?p=649601&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8#p649601">Re: Are Programers inherently better game designers?</a> </h3> <ul class="post-buttons"> <li> <a href="./../posting.php?mode=quote&p=649601&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8" title="Reply with quote" class="button button-icon-only"> <i class="icon fa-quote-left fa-fw" aria-hidden="true"></i><span class="sr-only">Quote</span> </a> </li> </ul> <p class="author"> <a class="unread" href="./../viewtopic.php?p=649601&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8#p649601" title="Post"> <i class="icon fa-file fa-fw icon-lightgray icon-md" aria-hidden="true"></i><span class="sr-only">Post</span> </a> <span class="responsive-hide">by <strong><a href="./../memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=141610&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8" style="color: #AA4444;" class="username-coloured">Tad_Carlucci</a></strong> » </span><time datetime="2019-12-05T13:52:34+00:00">December 5th, 2019, 1:52 pm</time> </p> <div class="content">As a progammer, I would expect most programmers to be lousy game designers. Don't confuse game design with program design or implementation.</div> <div id="sig649601" class="signature"><span style="font-size:85%;line-height:116%">I forked real life and now I'm getting merge conflicts.</span></div> </div> </div> <div class="back2top"> <a href="#top" class="top" title="Top"> <i class="icon fa-chevron-circle-up fa-fw icon-gray" aria-hidden="true"></i> <span class="sr-only">Top</span> </a> </div> </div> </div> <div id="p649651" class="post has-profile bg2"> <div class="inner"> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile649651"> <dt class="has-profile-rank has-avatar"> <div class="avatar-container"> <a href="./../memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=132476&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8" class="avatar"><img class="avatar" src="./../download/file.php?avatar=132476_1408902907.png" width="72" height="72" alt="User avatar" /></a> </div> <a href="./../memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=132476&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8" style="color: #66AA99;" class="username-coloured">Paulomat4</a> </dt> <dd class="profile-rank">Moderator Emeritus</dd> <dd class="profile-posts"><strong>Posts:</strong> <a href="./../search.php?author_id=132476&sr=posts&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8">730</a></dd> <dd class="profile-joined"><strong>Joined:</strong> October 16th, 2012, 3:32 pm</dd> <dd class="profile-custom-field profile-phpbb_location"><strong>Location:</strong> Wesmere library, probably summoning Zhangor</dd> </dl> <div class="postbody"> <div id="post_content649651"> <h3 > <a href="./../viewtopic.php?p=649651&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8#p649651">Re: Are Programers inherently better game designers?</a> </h3> <ul class="post-buttons"> <li> <a href="./../posting.php?mode=quote&p=649651&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8" title="Reply with quote" class="button button-icon-only"> <i class="icon fa-quote-left fa-fw" aria-hidden="true"></i><span class="sr-only">Quote</span> </a> </li> </ul> <p class="author"> <a class="unread" href="./../viewtopic.php?p=649651&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8#p649651" title="Post"> <i class="icon fa-file fa-fw icon-lightgray icon-md" aria-hidden="true"></i><span class="sr-only">Post</span> </a> <span class="responsive-hide">by <strong><a href="./../memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=132476&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8" style="color: #66AA99;" class="username-coloured">Paulomat4</a></strong> » </span><time datetime="2019-12-06T11:52:26+00:00">December 6th, 2019, 11:52 am</time> </p> <div class="content">I am a programmer. I wouldn't say I am good game designer. I suck at creating a compelling story, I suck at balancing and I probably suck at level design.</div> <div id="sig649651" class="signature">Creator of <a href="https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39512" class="postlink">Dawn of Thunder</a> and <a href="https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=39771" class="postlink">Global Unitmarkers</a><br> <br> <span style="font-size:85%;line-height:116%"><em class="text-italics">"I thought Naga's used semi-automatic crossbows with incendiary thermite arrows . . . my beliefs that this race is awesome are now shattered." - Evil Earl</em></span></div> </div> </div> <div class="back2top"> <a href="#top" class="top" title="Top"> <i class="icon fa-chevron-circle-up fa-fw icon-gray" aria-hidden="true"></i> <span class="sr-only">Top</span> </a> </div> </div> </div> <div id="p650049" class="post has-profile bg1"> <div class="inner"> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile650049"> <dt class="no-profile-rank no-avatar"> <div class="avatar-container"> </div> <a href="./../memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=528&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8" class="username">shevegen</a> </dt> <dd class="profile-posts"><strong>Posts:</strong> <a href="./../search.php?author_id=528&sr=posts&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8">536</a></dd> <dd class="profile-joined"><strong>Joined:</strong> June 3rd, 2004, 4:35 pm</dd> </dl> <div class="postbody"> <div id="post_content650049"> <h3 > <a href="./../viewtopic.php?p=650049&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8#p650049">Re: Are Programers inherently better game designers?</a> </h3> <ul class="post-buttons"> <li> <a href="./../posting.php?mode=quote&p=650049&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8" title="Reply with quote" class="button button-icon-only"> <i class="icon fa-quote-left fa-fw" aria-hidden="true"></i><span class="sr-only">Quote</span> </a> </li> </ul> <p class="author"> <a class="unread" href="./../viewtopic.php?p=650049&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8#p650049" title="Post"> <i class="icon fa-file fa-fw icon-lightgray icon-md" aria-hidden="true"></i><span class="sr-only">Post</span> </a> <span class="responsive-hide">by <strong><a href="./../memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=528&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8" class="username">shevegen</a></strong> » </span><time datetime="2019-12-21T06:26:12+00:00">December 21st, 2019, 6:26 am</time> </p> <div class="content">> Do you think that programmers are inherently better game designers than say artists? writers? music composers? bug reporters?<br> <br> I think the problem is that it is a generic question, and a generic question is difficult to answer correctly. It is also a bit cliched.<br> <br> Instead, I think I can relate some experience - although I am not a professional developer by any means, always been a hobbyist,<br> always will be, I can give some of that experience, having been active in different projects.<br> <br> I won't name all of them but one example is the LPC MUD called GEAS (won't add any link here; it's not important anyway but<br> just provides some "real" context).<br> <br> LPC is a fairly annoying, archaic language. It's like C "with classes". You would have things such as: sword->move(this_player()); <br> or something like that. The main admin on that MUD (PO Turian) was a very efficient programmer, but he lacked creativity<br> in regards to storytelling, roleplay and in-game design. With "in-game design" I mean to implement features that are based<br> on the in-game logic at hand, all the while as you take side-effects into account.<br> <br> I could give numerous examples here but I will just give a single one; sorry if not everything is understood.<br> <br> Oldschool MUDs typically have PvP (player-versus-player) combat, and PKs (player-killing). The MUD allowed for <br> respawning (ressing) so players could continue to play their character. There were players of one "class", the <br> cleric class, that complained about their PvP targets (other players) evading their miracle effects - mostly the<br> damage dealing miracles that clerics could request through a prayer to their deity. This was called "miracle<br> hopping". As a consequence of that feedback, PO Turian added a miracle called "trap", which essentially<br> had a high chance to prevent escape from PvP targets.<br> <br> What he did not know was that there was a synergistic effect due to another miracle, called "holy word".<br> This miracle would damage those of an opposing alignment, and also trigger them to try to run away.<br> <br> This is where the "trap" miracle kicked in because it prevents escape. Unfortunately, trying to escape<br> has a cost to stamina/fatigue. To make this lengthy story short: the above combination gave some<br> clerics the ability to, with high chance, induce max fatigue/panting on a GROUP of enemies. and<br> if you are too fatigued, you can not continue to fight and get beat down. In other words: you essentially<br> lose PvP. All from a single change.<br> <br> Since this had a GROUP effect, it also caused a whole GROUP of players to lose, since hword would<br> trigger all who failed the discipline resist check against the miracle.<br> <br> Now the thing is ... PO Turian is a good programmer, but the game code is too complex, and he does<br> not play the game, so he was unaware of the above combination.<br> <br> I could give many more examples, e. g. programmer versus game designer, but very often I think<br> a good programmer is not necessarily a good game designer automatically.<br> <br> You could be a great game designer but suck at programming too. Or you could be a good programmer<br> AND a good game designer, which is a rare combination. I am better at creative additions than the<br> raw code.<br> <br> So ... to get back to your original question: I think in general it is just rare to see a great programmer<br> also be a great game designer at the same time. Experience and practice plays a role too, everyone<br> can get better, but by and large I think that many good programmers lack the parts necessary for<br> a good GAME designer, since the latter is harder. You have to keep trade-offs in mind when you<br> make a change, e. g. will players accept a change? What other changes may be necessary when<br> you have added something?<br> <br> The above example with the trap miracle was unfair on many levels. There were three cleric<br> "classes" but only two of them had access to the hword-combination. And it was a free upgrade<br> powerwise to all clerics - non-clerics had no upgrades. There was no compensating downgrade<br> at the same time either, so it was a free gift to all clerics. It was simply unfair, massively changed<br> the game, and led to retirement of some players too (not necessarily at the same time but<br> people tend to lose interest when stupid changes are made, before they may retire eventually).<br> <br> > some times I come across games that I'm like "what were the developers thinking this isn't even fun."<br> <br> Yeah. It's difficult. Often they don't play the game, which adds to the problem, since you add changes<br> that aren't any fun. That happened on the above MUD too - numerous changes were made that<br> just killed playability. Giving feedback is pointless because it is ignored or you just end up<br> alienating that opinionated admin. It's bad overall.<br> <br> Managing a game project is not easy. Everyone invests spare time into a project, and when the<br> fun goes away you tend to do something else with your time.<br> <br> It is an art to keep people motivated. <img class="smilies" src="./../images/smilies/icon_smile.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":)" title="Smile"><br> <br> > games art looks fine, but then when I try to play it I get sick of it real fast<br> <br> Happens to me too. This is why I much favour playability over art. Art is important and nice,<br> but if the underlying game sucks, the best art can not compensate for that.<br> <br> I don't mind crappy art if the game play itself is entertaining.<br> <br> > I don't really want to pick on certain open source games with free cultural assets and say they<br> > suck (because a lot of proprietary games suck as well) but sometimes I'm just like "what is<br> > wrong with this game is design, but its like I can't put my finger on exactly why it sucks.<br> <br> IMO this is a lot because people have a finite amount of time and tend to move on quickly,<br> unless there is a compelling reason for them to remain active. Many open source games<br> are massively unfinished. Difficult to resume a game project that has been abandoned ...</div> </div> </div> <div class="back2top"> <a href="#top" class="top" title="Top"> <i class="icon fa-chevron-circle-up fa-fw icon-gray" aria-hidden="true"></i> <span class="sr-only">Top</span> </a> </div> </div> </div> <div id="p650062" class="post has-profile bg2"> <div class="inner"> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile650062"> <dt class="has-profile-rank no-avatar"> <div class="avatar-container"> </div> <a href="./../memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=141610&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8" style="color: #AA4444;" class="username-coloured">Tad_Carlucci</a> </dt> <dd class="profile-rank">Inactive Developer</dd> <dd class="profile-posts"><strong>Posts:</strong> <a href="./../search.php?author_id=141610&sr=posts&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8">503</a></dd> <dd class="profile-joined"><strong>Joined:</strong> April 24th, 2016, 4:18 pm</dd> </dl> <div class="postbody"> <div id="post_content650062"> <h3 > <a href="./../viewtopic.php?p=650062&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8#p650062">Re: Are Programers inherently better game designers?</a> </h3> <ul class="post-buttons"> <li> <a href="./../posting.php?mode=quote&p=650062&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8" title="Reply with quote" class="button button-icon-only"> <i class="icon fa-quote-left fa-fw" aria-hidden="true"></i><span class="sr-only">Quote</span> </a> </li> </ul> <p class="author"> <a class="unread" href="./../viewtopic.php?p=650062&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8#p650062" title="Post"> <i class="icon fa-file fa-fw icon-lightgray icon-md" aria-hidden="true"></i><span class="sr-only">Post</span> </a> <span class="responsive-hide">by <strong><a href="./../memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=141610&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8" style="color: #AA4444;" class="username-coloured">Tad_Carlucci</a></strong> » </span><time datetime="2019-12-21T16:32:13+00:00">December 21st, 2019, 4:32 pm</time> </p> <div class="content">Wow. It's been over fouty years since I've seen anyone mention LPC, much less speak of it in a way which makes me believe they did anything more than read a few Wikipedia articles.<br> <br> Even way back then those of us who kept the engines going generally recognized we were generally better at that then at making engaging activities the players wanted. That's why we made is to easy ... all you had to do is play enough to show you had seen most of the issues from the player's side, and you were allowed to start "coding" in LPC.<br> <br> Personally, I always thought LPC was a terrible language. But it passed the first test: it worked. Maintaining it, though, was a pain.</div> <div id="sig650062" class="signature"><span style="font-size:85%;line-height:116%">I forked real life and now I'm getting merge conflicts.</span></div> </div> </div> <div class="back2top"> <a href="#top" class="top" title="Top"> <i class="icon fa-chevron-circle-up fa-fw icon-gray" aria-hidden="true"></i> <span class="sr-only">Top</span> </a> </div> </div> </div> <div id="p654293" class="post has-profile bg1"> <div class="inner"> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile654293"> <dt class="no-profile-rank no-avatar"> <div class="avatar-container"> </div> <a href="./../memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=206057&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8" class="username">fire-emblem</a> </dt> <dd class="profile-posts"><strong>Posts:</strong> <a href="./../search.php?author_id=206057&sr=posts&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8">23</a></dd> <dd class="profile-joined"><strong>Joined:</strong> April 16th, 2020, 5:59 am</dd> </dl> <div class="postbody"> <div id="post_content654293"> <h3 > <a href="./../viewtopic.php?p=654293&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8#p654293">funnest thing/post i've ever seen on this entire web</a> </h3> <ul class="post-buttons"> <li> <a href="./../posting.php?mode=quote&p=654293&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8" title="Reply with quote" class="button button-icon-only"> <i class="icon fa-quote-left fa-fw" aria-hidden="true"></i><span class="sr-only">Quote</span> </a> </li> </ul> <p class="author"> <a class="unread" href="./../viewtopic.php?p=654293&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8#p654293" title="Post"> <i class="icon fa-file fa-fw icon-lightgray icon-md" aria-hidden="true"></i><span class="sr-only">Post</span> </a> <span class="responsive-hide">by <strong><a href="./../memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=206057&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8" class="username">fire-emblem</a></strong> » </span><time datetime="2020-04-17T01:48:45+00:00">April 17th, 2020, 1:48 am</time> </p> <div class="content"><strong class="text-strong">funnest thing/post i've ever seen on this entire web</strong></div> </div> </div> <div class="back2top"> <a href="#top" class="top" title="Top"> <i class="icon fa-chevron-circle-up fa-fw icon-gray" aria-hidden="true"></i> <span class="sr-only">Top</span> </a> </div> </div> </div> <div class="action-bar bar-bottom"> <a href="./../posting.php?mode=reply&t=51258&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8" class="button" title="Post a reply"> <span>Post Reply</span> <i class="icon fa-reply fa-fw" aria-hidden="true"></i> </a> <form method="post" action="./../viewtopic.php?t=51258&sid=1d6223547b41b6f1cb017a59c98dbcd8"> <div class="dropdown-container dropdown-container-left dropdown-button-control sort-tools"> <span title="Display and sorting options" class="button button-secondary dropdown-trigger dropdown-select"> <i class="icon fa-sort-amount-asc fa-fw" aria-hidden="true"></i> <span class="caret"><i class="icon fa-sort-down fa-fw" 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