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Host Brittany Luse talks to NPR Immigration correspondent Jasmine Garsd about what she's learned from her reporting in the region and how all this could tie into a larger Midwest identity crisis.Then, Brittany is joined by Danzy Senna, author of Colored Television, to talk about how she's seen biracial representation change over the last three decades, and what it means to be in the "Not Like Us" era. They dig into her latest novel and its perspective on racial profiteering." /><link rel="alternate" type="application/rss+xml" title="Culture" href="https://feeds.npr.org/1008/rss.xml" /><meta name="cXenseParse:pageclass" content="article" /><meta name="cXenseParse:publishtime" content="2024-09-27T03:00:59-04:00" /><meta name="cXenseParse:author" content="Brittany Luse|Barton Girdwood|Alexis Williams|Liam McBain|Corey Antonio Rose|Jessica Placzek|Jasmine Romero" data-separator="|" /><link rel="apple-touch-icon" sizes="180x180" href="https://media.npr.org/chrome/favicon/favicon-180x180.png" /><link rel="shortcut icon" href="https://media.npr.org/chrome/favicon/favicon.ico" /><link rel="icon" sizes="96x96" href="https://media.npr.org/chrome/favicon/favicon-96x96.png" /><link rel="icon" sizes="48x48" href="https://media.npr.org/chrome/favicon/favicon-48x48.png" /><link rel="icon" sizes="32x32" href="https://media.npr.org/chrome/favicon/favicon-32x32.png" /><link rel="icon" sizes="16x16" href="https://media.npr.org/chrome/favicon/favicon-16x16.png" /><meta property="og:title" content="An identity crisis at the heart of the election; plus, disrupting biracial fantasies : It's Been a Minute" /><meta property="og:url" content="https://www.npr.org/2024/09/27/1202000780/its-been-a-minute-midwest-identity-danzy-senna" /><meta property="og:type" content="article" /><meta property="og:description" content="Following the false allegations against the Haitian immigrants in Springfield, Ohio, the city received over 30 bomb threats, saw school closures and even the cancellation of a celebration for diversity in arts and culture. 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Host Brittany Luse talks to NPR Immigration correspondent <a href="https://www.npr.org/people/297147616/jasmine-garsd">Jasmine Garsd</a> about what she's learned from her reporting in the region and how all this could tie into a larger Midwest identity crisis.<br><br>Then, Brittany is joined by Danzy Senna, author of<em> </em><a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/721501/colored-television-a-gma-book-club-pick-by-danzy-senna/"><em>Colored Television</em></a>, to talk about how she's seen biracial representation change over the last three decades, and what it means to be in the "Not Like Us" era. 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I'm Brittany Luse, and you're listening to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident.<p><p>(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)<p><p>LUSE: This week, we're connecting the dots between niceness, cannibalism and Henry Ford. I know, I know, how are all these things connected? Well, we're going to find out with NPR immigration correspondent Jasmine Garsd. Jasmine, welcome to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE.<p><p>JASMINE GARSD, BYLINE: Thank you for having me.<p><p>LUSE: Quick question. When you think Midwest, what comes to mind?<p><p>GARSD: I think the first thing that comes to mind is, like, this stereotype of niceness, of Midwestern, like, wholesome niceness. I think of bad, bad weather 'cause I feel like several times I've been working in the Midwest and got stuck in, like, atrocious ice storms.<p><p>LUSE: OK, fair. That's fair.<p><p>GARSD: And then I think I definitely think about a disenfranchised, alienated working white class, you know? I kind of, like, cue Eminem music (laughter).<p><p>(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "ROCK BOTTOM")<p><p>EMINEM: (Rapping) Minimum wage got my adrenaline caged. Full of venom and rage, especially when I'm engaged.<p><p>LUSE: OK. I have to say you gave a much more thoughtful and in-depth response than I have to that question. When I think of the Midwest, I think of - I think of me. I think of myself (laughter).<p><p>GARSD: Yeah.<p><p>LUSE: Because that's where I'm from. I'm from Michigan. We are going to talk all about some of what you brought up, some of that ideal or that fantasy of the Midwest today - but first, a horror story. During the debate a couple of weeks back, we heard a completely unfounded claim that Haitian immigrants in Springfield, Ohio, were eating their neighbors' pets. It's a scary idea, for sure, but also one that's not true. What isn't just a story, though, is that this claim has really impacted the lives of Haitian immigrants in Springfield and the city at large.<p><p>There have been over 30 bomb threats, school closures and evacuations, even the cancellation of a celebration for diversity, arts and culture. Even if the threats panned out to be false, the fear they created isn't. But what's hidden underneath these claims about immigrants, and what does it say about how we imagine the Midwest?<p><p>To start, Jasmine, I want to hear more about your reporting in the region. Springfield, Ohio, gained 15,000 immigrants in the past few years. And Springfield is a city of 58,000 people. Is Springfield the only place where we're seeing this?<p><p>GARSD: No, absolutely not. I mean, I think we are seeing this scenario play out throughout the U.S. And I've been really interested in the Midwest. If you look at cities and towns that there's been a declining population, especially a declining U.S.-born population - right? - suddenly, there are labor needs. What's been happening in places like Nebraska, for example, is an influx of immigrants who have been filling some of those gaps. And then you get simultaneously this push of, like, xenophobia. And I always describe it as, like, labor needs versus political expediency, right? And so I found Springfield interesting because, in some ways, it's, like, a tiny little slice of a story that I have been seeing over and over again over the years.<p><p>LUSE: Yeah. But there are growing pains associated with adding a lot more people to a city's infrastructure. Like, there's a higher demand for housing and health care and schools. How does that work?<p><p>GARSD: I mean, I think that's a very real concern. And something I have noticed is that in more liberal circles, I think there is a tendency to want to brush off concerns about infrastructure so that it's not accidentally conflated with being xenophobic, right? But I also think for a place like Springfield, infrastructure concerns are very real, you know? I spoke to people who were so thoughtful and so concerned with the rhetoric - right? - the vitriol. But they were also saying like, look, 15- to 20,000 new people in a city of about 60,000 over the course of four years is a lot.<p><p>We know the situation in Haiti is pretty horrific. And so in a lot of cases, this is a population that's arriving with really, you know, dire economic need. Also, English is not a first language. I was told by the local government that there was a moment where there were 40 new Creole-only-speaking students coming into school every week. And that's a lot, you know, especially for a city which - like Springfield that has had a high poverty rate. There's, like, these real conversations to be had about, like, balancing out labor needs with infrastructure needs. Unfortunately, I don't think we're having any of those conversations.<p><p>LUSE: Yeah. It seems like companies, by enticing workers to come to Springfield, kind of created a demand on the area in and around the city. And perhaps they could have been working better with the local governments to help bring all the new workers and their families there in a more seamless way.<p><p>GARSD: Yeah. I sat down with Springfield Mayor Rob Rue, and he expressed this exact sentiment, which is - you know, first of all, I should say, like, almost all the Haitians I spoke to went to Springfield because they heard about job openings. And so the frustration that the mayor was expressing to me was that he really wishes there had been more collaboration between some of the recruiting companies and government, you know, of just saying like, listen, we're going to be bringing X amount of workers here, and they're going to need school services, and we're going to need housing services - and so, you know, a desire for a more coordinated effort, which we have seen during past waves of immigration.<p><p>LUSE: So given all this, there's definitely some tension around who is coming into the workforce - even though more workers were needed - and that tension is bubbling up during the election, as we've seen. What do the false claims about migrants eating pets say to you, like, reading between the lines?<p><p>GARSD: I mean, I think the Donald Trump campaign is - you know, we're talking about a candidate who has said that immigrants are poisoning the blood of the nation, who has compared immigrants to Hannibal Lecter, you know, the cannibal in "Silence Of The Lambs."<p><p>LUSE: Yeah. He evokes Hannibal mostly when talking about immigrants. It doesn't really make sense to me. I don't think he says anyone is really eating anybody, but, I mean, this is really scary imagery.<p><p>GARSD: Right. And I think the way that it's being phrased. I see a throughline between Hannibal Lecter, cannibalism and the pet-eating accusation and the poisoning the blood of the nation accusation. And it's all kind of going into the same sphere of these people are here. They have come here to our heartland - you know, we refer to the Midwest as the heartland - to consume us, to really take what we love and who we are. And it's almost like the culmination of replacement theory, is you will be consumed. These people are going to consume you.<p><p>LUSE: It sounds like there is a lot of fear that this maybe previously widely accepted idea of the Midwest is going to be subsumed or disappear because of this influx of newcomers. And that feels connected to this specific story that gets told about the Midwest that you got at earlier in this conversation.<p><p>GARSD: Right.<p><p>LUSE: There's this idea that the Midwest is nice and that it's middle class and also that it is white. And I found that by the numbers, that this isn't a totally wrong impression. A study from 2021 found that almost two-thirds of the counties in the Midwest are at least 95% white, which coming from the Detroit area, I was like, I didn't know it was like that (laughter).<p><p>GARSD: Right, right.<p><p>LUSE: These changing demographics that are being experienced in communities like Springfield, Ohio, might clash with that story. I wonder, is the Midwest facing an identity crisis?<p><p>GARSD: I mean, I think yes and no. Like, I think to your point, what Midwest are we talking? Are we talking about this mythological Midwest? But, you know, I also associate the Midwest with, like, Prince. I think it's very interesting that two of the main characters in this election are two different versions of Midwesterners. You know, I'm talking about Minnesota Governor Tim Walz and vice presidential candidate JD Vance from Ohio, you know? And they're kind of duking it out for, like, two different versions of the Midwest in terms of immigration, right?<p><p>And so JD Vance is talking about immigration kind of, like, ruining Ohio. Tim Walz has had an approach towards immigration to Minnesota that has been different. You know, he's been criticized by Republicans for, you know, offering health care, driver's licenses to undocumented immigrants. I just think the soul and the heart of the U.S., there's something really there, you know, about, like, this question, this identity question of are we a country that needs immigrants and acknowledges that need, or are we a country that sees it as a threat, an existential threat? Those two questions, those two different attitudes are very much embodied by Walz and Vance.<p><p>LUSE: I mean, I'm from the Detroit area, which has been a diverse and multicultural place for a long time. And part of that is because Henry Ford and Ford Motor Company hired a lot of Black workers and foreign-born workers. But also with that came a price. For immigrant workers, they were forced to enter into an Americanization assembly line, where they had to let go of their customs and were subject to investigations and home checks to make sure that they were living, quote-unquote, "American lives." Their assimilation even culminated in a melting pot ceremony where they entered a giant pot wearing clothes from their home countries and left wearing homogenized suits. Of course, many of these immigrants were European and assimilated into whiteness. But nowadays, immigrants don't have to do that.<p><p>GARSD: Yeah.<p><p>LUSE: Do white Americans still expect them to?<p><p>GARSD: Yeah. I think you mentioned something really interesting there, by the way - a side note - about Black American workers. And I think often with the Midwest, we forget that the Midwest was the recipient of an enormous internal migration, right?<p><p>LUSE: Yes, the Great Migration, exactly. Yeah.<p><p>GARSD: And so this mythology of a time in the Midwest, like, this idyllic time where nobody ever landed there attempting to have a better life. It never was, you know? And so in regards to your question, yeah, the Henry Ford era is just so fascinating. We forget, like, how vilified these groups were and that so much of the rhetoric that was lobbed against Irish and Italian. And I do, in speaking with more conservative circles - I think there's a lot of anxiety over, like, the celebration of heritage and of individualism. Even when I was in Springfield, you know, I was told that at some point local government had created Haitian Flag Day - right? - and that there was a small sector of the population that was very outraged by this. And I think it goes to this anxiety about what is it to be American.<p><p>LUSE: Jasmine, thank you so much. I have learned so much here. This has been fantastic. I really appreciate it.<p><p>GARSD: I love talking to you about this, and I love talking to a Midwesterner about it (laughter).<p><p>LUSE: I'm happy to be one of the resident Midwesterners.<p><p>GARSD: Resident Midwestern, Brittany Luse.<p><p>LUSE: (Laughter) At NPR. Really appreciate it. And as a thank you for teaching me so much, I'd like to teach you something...<p><p>GARSD: Oh.<p><p>LUSE: ...By playing a game with you. Can you stick around for a tiny bit longer?<p><p>GARSD: Yeah.<p><p>LUSE: We'll be right back with a little game I like to call But Did You Know? Stick around.<p><p>All right, all right. I'm Brittany Luse here with NPR immigration correspondent Jasmine Garsd. And now we are joined by B.A. Parker, cohost of Code Switch. Welcome, Parker.<p><p>(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)<p><p>B A PARKER, BYLINE: Hello.<p><p>(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)<p><p>LUSE: (Laughter) Oh, I'm so glad to have the two of you here to play a little game that I like to call But Did You Know? Here's how it works. I'm going to share a story that's been making headlines this week. And as I give you background on the story, I'll also ask you trivia related to it. But don't worry, it's all multiple-choice. And the first one to blurt out the right answer gets a point. Person with the most points wins. And their prize is bragging rights. Are you ready?<p><p>PARKER: Sure.<p><p>GARSD: OK.<p><p>LUSE: Parker, why you look so nervous? You've played the game twice. You're going to be fine.<p><p>PARKER: I don't know what the questions are going to be.<p><p>LUSE: It's going to be fun. It's going to be fun. I promise. Today, we're talking about a very exciting topic. We're going to talk about a diva who has been making headlines and taking over social media. She is the moment. Her name is Moo Deng.<p><p>PARKER: (Laughter).<p><p>GARSD: The baby hippo.<p><p>LUSE: Yes, Moo Deng. She is a 2-month-old pygmy hippo - that is a right, Jasmine - from a zoo in Thailand. She is very beautiful and is known for her pretty pink blush, her round and chubby body, always looking wet and blurry in photos and biting people. I am obsessed with her. Have y'all seen her?<p><p>GARSD: I have. I've seen her - like yesterday morning, I saw a picture of her just being like, (vocalizing). Sorry.<p><p>(LAUGHTER)<p><p>GARSD: And that's - I was like, wait, that's exactly how I feel on Monday morning.<p><p>LUSE: OK.<p><p>GARSD: (Laughter).<p><p>LUSE: I think that's why we're connecting to her so much, because she's just expressing what we all feel. I don't know. Parker, have you seen Moo Deng? Do you know who she is?<p><p>PARKER: I do. I've seen her bite people.<p><p>LUSE: OK. Another thing she and I have in common. But yes, I'm so glad. Well, look, y'all already have a little baseline my knowledge, but we're going to learn a little more about her. To start, what does Moo Deng translate to?<p><p>(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)<p><p>LUSE: Is it A, fat piglet; B, cute pig; or C, bouncy pork?<p><p>GARSD: Cute pig.<p><p>PARKER: C?<p><p>LUSE: Well, Parker, you don't need to look so distressed because the answer is C, bouncy pork.<p><p>(SOUNDBITE OF FANFARE)<p><p>LUSE: Yeah. It's a Thai dish.<p><p>PARKER: I have eaten Moo Deng (laughter).<p><p>GARSD: They named her after a dish?<p><p>LUSE: Yes, her name...<p><p>PARKER: Yeah.<p><p>LUSE: ...Was chosen through a poll on social media, actually, and her siblings are named Moo Toon, which is stewed pork, and Moo Wan, which is sweet pork.<p><p>GARSD: It's a little dark.<p><p>LUSE: Well, I have a question. OK, so since this name is not exactly y'all's favorite, if you had been in charge, what would you have named her? What does she look like to you?<p><p>PARKER: Paula.<p><p>LUSE: Paula?<p><p>GARSD: Paula?<p><p>PARKER: Paula the pygmy hippo. Why not?<p><p>LUSE: What about you, Jasmine? What would you name Moo Deng?<p><p>GARSD: I maybe would call her - so hippo in Spanish means hiccups.<p><p>LUSE: Oh.<p><p>PARKER: Really?<p><p>GARSD: I'd call her Hiccups.<p><p>LUSE: That's really cute...<p><p>GARSD: (Laughter).<p><p>LUSE: ...Actually. I'm loving that. I'm loving that.<p><p>PARKER: I'm giving grown woman names to a hippo, and she's like, Hiccups.<p><p>GARSD: Yeah. Like, her name is Glenda from 3C.<p><p>(LAUGHTER)<p><p>LUSE: All right. Onto question two now that we've established some very excellent, in my opinion, hippo names. How many hours a day is Moo Deng awake?<p><p>(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)<p><p>LUSE: Is it A, two hours; B, five hours; or C, 10 hours?<p><p>GARSD: Five.<p><p>PARKER: Ten?<p><p>LUSE: Well, y'all were both very ambitious because Moo Deng is only awake for two hours a day (laughter).<p><p>(SOUNDBITE OF BUZZER)<p><p>LUSE: Honestly, she's quite playful and energetic for being such a sleepy girl. But there you go. If you got 22 hours in the day to sleep, you're going to go ham in those two hours. You're going to go ham in two hours you're awake.<p><p>GARSD: That's no pun intended.<p><p>PARKER: (Laughter).<p><p>LUSE: No pun intended. So, to recap the score, Jasmine, you are at zero points right now, Parker, you are at one point.<p><p>PARKER: OK.<p><p>LUSE: All right, question No. 3. Fame is a prison, even for tiny baby animals. What have zoo visitors reportedly thrown at Moo Deng?<p><p>(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)<p><p>LUSE: A, fruit; B, a shell; or C a stick?<p><p>GARSD: Fruit.<p><p>PARKER: B.<p><p>LUSE: Parker, wow. For the win, you...<p><p>GARSD: Wow.<p><p>LUSE: ...Clinched it. The answer is B, a shell.<p><p>(SOUNDBITE OF FANFARE)<p><p>GARSD: People are trash.<p><p>PARKER: People are trash.<p><p>LUSE: According to her keepers, some visitors are behaving like concertgoers who've been known to throw stuff at celebs. Not cool at all. The director of the zoo vowed to take legal action against anyone.<p><p>PARKER: Exactly.<p><p>LUSE: ...Behaving this way. I have one last question for y'all. If you saw someone being rude like that to Moo Deng and you were there at the zoo in Thailand in person, what would you do?<p><p>PARKER: I would go viral. I'd be like, what the hell...<p><p>GARSD: Yeah.<p><p>PARKER: ...Are you doing?<p><p>(LAUGHTER)<p><p>GARSD: I think we can agree on that.<p><p>LUSE: You'd go ham (laughter).<p><p>GARSD: I would be going ham. People don't know how to act at zoos.<p><p>LUSE: You're at their house. You came to their house to see what they do.<p><p>GARSD: Exactly. Don't come to Moo Deng's house and throw things at her. That's so rude.<p><p>LUSE: Thank you. Thank you. It's like - you know what I would do? Actually, I would follow them home, and I would throw a seashell at them. I'd wait outside their window - boom.<p><p>PARKER: Just pelting people through Thailand, just trying to get them to behave.<p><p>LUSE: I'm all about revenge, baby. All about revenge. And Scorpio season is coming right up. Well, oh, my gosh. I appreciate you both coming in today to play But Did You Know? this week. Congratulations to B.A. Parker on your win. You did it, girl. And Jasmine, Parker, thank you both so much for joining me today. This was a blast.<p><p>PARKER: Thank you.<p><p>GARSD: (Laughter).<p><p>LUSE: Parker, just accept your greatness. Accept your win. Accept it.<p><p>That was NPR immigration correspondent Jasmine Garsd and Code Switch cohost B.A. Parker. I'm going to take a quick break, and when I get back - Danzy Senna on her new book "Colored Television" and what being mixed race means in a post-post-racial America.<p><p>(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)<p><p>LUSE: Stick around.<p><p>One night, a few years ago, I was up late scrolling TikTok as I am one to do, and I came upon a scene from a soapy TV drama called "Ginny & Georgia." It featured two biracial teenagers, an Asian boy and a Black girl in a heated argument. It got my attention quickly.<p><p>(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "GINNY & GEORGIA")<p><p>ANTONIA GENTRY: (As Ginny Miller) Your favorite food is cheeseburgers, and I know more Mandarin than you do. You're barely even Asian.<p><p>MASON TEMPLE: (As Hunter Chen) Sorry I'm not Chinese enough for you, but I've never seen you pound back jerk chicken.<p><p>LUSE: I don't think I need to tell you I was cringing, but I was cringing. Mandarin, jerk chicken. What I think was an attempt at a sophisticated conversation about race between two mixed characters came off as unnatural, kind of offensive and dreadfully corny. Instead of sounding like 2021, that dialogue sounded straight out of 1981. According to our last U.S. census, more than 33 million Americans identify as multiracial. That's over three times what it was in 2010. The mixed experience is increasingly common.<p><p>Many of us already know this, though, through our own lives and families and friend groups. But when I turn on my TV, it often feels like Hollywood hasn't caught up with the times. Mixed characters, if they're depicted at all, are often perpetually confused or inescapably tragic or they think their families and existence are the solution to American racism, which I think we can all agree that's not how that works. Thoughtful depictions of the mixed-race experience can be few and far between. But thankfully, one of my favorite writers of all time, author Danzy Senna, is on the case.<p><p>DANZY SENNA: In a sense, this book, I couldn't have predicted how closely its themes would land with the world I was writing into, actually.<p><p>LUSE: Her newest book, "Colored Television," delves into the thornier aspects of representation and being biracial in America. "Colored Television" centers on Jane. She's a mixed-race, middle-aged writer and professional who's hit a wall with her sophomore novel, which is this long, winding and serious narrative history of mixed Americans of Black and white ancestry. The problem? Well, her editor flat-out rejected it, which is too bad because Jane really needed that money. And Jane wants more than to get out of her credit card debt. She wants the kind of big house and seamless life that a professor's salary just can't buy.<p><p>To Jane, the obvious solution to her problems is to become a TV writer and pitch a network comedy about a mixed-race family. From there, Jane sits in on cringy development meetings and listens to a producer freak out over his kid not looking Black enough, and she spirals out over not being able to capitalize on her own identity. While others, who she sees as less deserving, do. It all feels very relevant right now. "Colored Television" is full of the wry, observant wit and sharp racial commentary that Senna is known for. And she has been exposing the flimsy boundaries of race for a while. Her previous novels, "Caucasia" and "New People" also focused on mixed-race protagonists.<p><p>SENNA: I feel like Jane in "Colored Television," who's been writing this 400-year history of the mulatto people. And I'm like, wait, have I been doing that? - maybe just not 400 years (laughter).<p><p>LUSE: Today on the show, Danzy joins me to talk about "Colored Television" and what to make of this current era of mixed-race identity. Danzy, welcome to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE.<p><p>SENNA: Thank you for having me.<p><p>LUSE: Oh, my pleasure, my pleasure. This is an exciting day. This is an exciting day. So I've loved your books for a long time, and you've been writing about mixed race/biracial identity for some time now and covering different eras too. As someone who's written so much about mixed-race identity, how have you seen the conversation, and even just general American societal understanding around it, change over the last two, three decades that you've been writing about it?<p><p>SENNA: I know. I do - hearing you describe it, I have lived through so many iterations of the biracial, Black, white experience in America now. And I'm 54, and I have been writing about this since my early 20s in some form or another. And, you know, in the '70s, I was in an era where you just identified as Black. And that was my experience.<p><p>And it's just been interesting to grow through these different evolutions of mixed identity to see it become something of distinct from Blackness, sometimes rejected by Blackness. There's an increasing ambivalence, I think, about what space mixed people hold within the Black community, along with other kinds of Blackness have been treated maybe with more trepidation or ambivalence in this current moment - the not like us moment is what I call it.<p><p>LUSE: The not like us moment (laughter). Please say something about that. What do you mean?<p><p>SENNA: I mean, I'm kind of joking...<p><p>LUSE: (Laughter).<p><p>SENNA: ...Because I think that had more to do with Drake...<p><p>LUSE: (Laughter).<p><p>SENNA: ...Than anything else. But, like, I just think there's the discussion around this term white passing. That term was never in my life. You could quote-unquote, "pass for white" was the expression. But passing was an action. It was something you choose to do. It wasn't something that your body inherently was accused of doing. I find some of the language really interesting.<p><p>LUSE: I've seen that as well. That is something that I have become more aware of, I think, through social media in the last, like, four or five years. I thought passing was something that was deliberate that you did on purpose to assume a different identity or leave your past behind or cut off from your family.<p><p>SENNA: Exactly. And I think, also, when I was growing up, like, the worst thing that you could do as someone of mixed race, who was, you know, ambiguous-looking or could pass for white, was to call yourself white. And now, that's actually coming from the Black community, more of the critique. If you identify as Black, you're seen as a kind of fraud. So it's just been really interesting to watch that evolution.<p><p>LUSE: That reminds me of Kamala Harris' campaign. I mean, that in and of itself is evidence of another huge change in the way that we've seen mixed-race people treated in politics. It's very different than how Barack Obama was treated in, say, 2008 or 2012. There is some fascination with her race, but it's not the same Obama-era fever pitch. I don't think that whole Trump, like, is she Indian or is she Black thing - I think the tale of that was much shorter this year than it probably would have been 16 years ago. It feels like perhaps we are entering a new era in how America understands mixed-raced identity. What era do you think we're moving into? And what aspects do you think, within this possible new era, are ripe for novelizing?<p><p>SENNA: I mean, I don't think it's a coincidence that both - one actually president, one potential president - Black presidents have been biracial. I think that speaks to what one writer called the Brazilification of the United States, where we will have - we talk in this racial binary, but there's actually these categories that don't exist in these poles of Black and white. And there is, say, a light-skinned mixed race - third race of people - who have been given a lot of the privileges that were won out of the Civil Rights Movement. The legacy of that had been bestowed upon a light-skinned elite. And this population has been given privileges based on their adjacency to whiteness.<p><p>And so I think we can't talk so much in the racial binary anymore. It doesn't quite fit the reality we're looking at. I always thought the most radical thing about Obama's presidency was Michelle. I thought the fact of her being in the White House was far more transgressive to me than him being in the White House - her being American, her being brown-skinned and descendant of the American history, to me, spoke so much to what was transgressive about that whole family being in the White House.<p><p>And I think you're right. We can look at what's happening in the kind of conversation around Kamala and see it as a kind of Rorschach test of what this country is feeling about mixed race, and all of these kind of fractures that we're noticing within the community.<p><p>LUSE: Interesting. With that, I'd like to turn toward your latest novel, "Colored Television," which is set in modern times and features of biracial woman, Jane, which, Jane, what a gal. She's a novelist with bourgeois dreams, but she thinks in order to reach them that she has to sell out. And her mixed identity plays very heavily into this plan. What did you want to say about trying to profit off of one's identity, or even, like, about the meaning of selling out?<p><p>SENNA: I think in this novel, you know, she's not concerned about where she fits into the world as a mixed person. She's concerned about the fact that she's not getting paid for it.<p><p>(LAUGHTER)<p><p>SENNA: See, I don't totally see it as about selling out, but about trying to bring this identity into the mainstream conversation and get paid at the same time. I think it's not so much that, you know, she doesn't have a real reason for wanting to write these stories. The conversation around identity and race has not included her in a way that feels interesting or complex. But at the same time, she's desperate, and she's willing to do whatever song and dance...<p><p>LUSE: (Laughter).<p><p>SENNA: ...She needs to do to get the story out there, and to be the token.<p><p>LUSE: Yeah.<p><p>SENNA: To be the one that they pick. Because as we know, they usually only pick one...<p><p>LUSE: One.<p><p>SENNA: ...Of us - one of us - onto Noah's Ark of the identity ship. And she is worried that someone else will get there before her.<p><p>LUSE: So Jane is intent on selling this story. She's intent on figuring out a way to package this mixed-race story for TV. But also, part of that is because she is desiring a very different way of life, and one that she's seen people close to her have achieved. I don't know if I would wholesale call her ambitious. Sometimes she has, like, moments where she's very ambitious, but she's definitely very covetous. And this is not the first time that's come up in your work. Your protagonist, Maria, in "New People" - she was desperately trying to fit into this specific type of, like, Black Brooklyn crowd.<p><p>SENNA: The boho crowd.<p><p>LUSE: Yes, the boho crowd in Fort Greene in the '90s.<p><p>SENNA: Yeah.<p><p>LUSE: Like, what is it about this Black artist bourgeoisie class that your characters find themselves seduced by?<p><p>SENNA: You know, it goes back to some autobiographical stuff, where I grew up in a family, first of all, that did not have money. And yet, like Jane's parents, they were intellectuals and artists, and they were broke (laughter). And that was sort of compounded by the fact of being the child of a Black man and a white woman in a very segregated city. And so I would say my sister and I sort of were always fascinated by Black wealth and the Black bourgeoisie, 'cause we had no interest in whiteness or the white world. Like, we were just interested in both having financial security and identity coherence that we lacked. And the Black bourgeoisie always felt to us like - or the various iterations of it, 'cause that's a very wide category.<p><p>LUSE: Very true.<p><p>SENNA: So I play into that a bit, and then make it more extreme with these characters' desire. And I think with Jane, you know, she talks about how her sister and her were obsessed with television, and would watch these families on TV because they found that the only families that were consistent and felt coherent to them were, like, the Jeffersons, and these families on television.<p><p>LUSE: A lot of the central tension of the book that I found really compelling was Jane's dishonesty with herself. She wants all these things, but she doesn't really voice them directly, I think because her husband, Lenny, comes from a background that sounds very similar to what Jane saw on television growing up. And Jane points this out at one point. Because he is of it, it's like he doesn't really know any different, and he doesn't know to want it in the way that she wants it.<p><p>SENNA: Exactly.<p><p>LUSE: And as a result, she seems kind of hesitant to voice her desires directly. And she ends up spending a lot of time lying - lying to herself and lying to other people, her husband, her friend, an agent - about what her angle really is.<p><p>SENNA: She's shady.<p><p>LUSE: (Laughter) Jane is shady. We love it, but she's shady. What's so embarrassing to Jane about her desires?<p><p>SENNA: You know, when you get married to someone, you can get married based on false premises, where you marry them based on who you want to present to them and you kind of mirror who they are. And she marries Lenny and buys into - or at least pretends to buy into - his dream of a bohemian lifestyle, committed to their art for art's sake. They're going to take their children around the world and live on bread and roses.<p><p>(LAUGHTER)<p><p>SENNA: And she is now, 10 years later, with these two children, one of whom has special needs, and she's having to come to terms with the fact that she's been passing to her husband. She has kind not admitted fully the level of want in her for something much more conventional, which is a bourgeois lifestyle - a house in Pasadena, a Blue Ribbon School. She wants these things that, to him, would be considered like what they call now mid.<p><p>(LAUGHTER)<p><p>SENNA: She doesn't want to, like, travel to Japan and immerse the children in another culture. And so I was interested in, like, this point in a marriage where you're sort of suddenly coming to terms with whatever fraud you perpetuated from the first date.<p><p>(LAUGHTER)<p><p>SENNA: And you had to continue that fraud up until this point, and the pressure points have hit you - the children and the, like, exhaustion, and just middle age. And you're like, wait a minute. This is not who I really am.<p><p>LUSE: (Laughter).<p><p>SENNA: And can we continue to stay married, when he wants this and I want this?<p><p>LUSE: In addition to all of the reasons that you've laid out as to why that kind of stable life is so enticing to Jane, I also sense this theme of, like - I don't know. This is conjecture. I'm guessing. I'm approaching middle age. I'm not there yet. But I can already start to see that there are, you know, some things that are probably not ever going to come to pass in my life. Like, when I was in my teens and 20s, I wanted to be the next Tina Fey. That's not happening.(Laughter) And then there are other things that I probably would have been embarrassed to say that I wanted, you know, five, 10, 15 years ago that now feel like (laughter), you know, the best possible things I could get - like a good life insurance policy and a third bedroom.<p><p>SENNA: See, you're still young, though. See, you're still young, because I think what I was tapping into with Jane is, all right, the smoke's clearing. You've come out of the fog of those first seven years, eight years with child-rearing. And you feel this grief for the career success you didn't have, for the things that you haven't done to make your life move to the place you want it to be and you thought it would be. So then that may be the female version of a mid-life crisis, is to say, I need to go and get - whatever way I'm going to get it, I'm going to get myself to this next stage of life, this middle-class success, 'cause I'm still living like I did in my 20s and it's not cute anymore.<p><p>(LAUGHTER)<p><p>SENNA: On the eve of menopause, this ain't cute.<p><p>LUSE: Oh, my gosh (laughter).<p><p>SENNA: I was more interested in, like, the career frenzy and the ambition frenzy that hits women at this point in their lives, where they're sort of - you want to get what you're going to get, 'cause you don't know how many more chances you're going to get. And when you have a failure in your mid-40s, it hits a lot harder than it did at 28.<p><p>LUSE: Oh, yeah. That's such a good point. There are so many different things that are driving Jane to behave in the way she does - to lie and sneak and be shady, as you say. But something that doesn't cause her distress is her identity. One of the many things I've noticed in your work is that you are not sentimental about multiracial identity. Your books don't posit it as inherently unique or progressive, but it's still a complicated, often absurd type of experience. How do you toe the line between writing about the reality of being mixed race, while also poking fun at some of the ridiculousness of it?<p><p>SENNA: Yeah, that's a great question. None of my books, have they been conflicted in the traditional tragic mulatto sense. I don't write characters who want to be white. Birdie in my first novel, "Caucasia," is forced to live under a fake identity, thanks to her mother's craziness, briefly. But she never kind of questions who she really is on a deeper level, and doesn't have that old-fashioned sort of shame and rejection of Blackness that was so much the narrative of mixed-race characters up until a certain moment. After that book, I didn't want to feel pigeonholed into writing the sort of magical mulatto, either. I didn't want to reject the tragic mulatto in order to write this fantasy of what it is to be mixed, which is that we are the perfect blending of all the races and we are the end of race. It's something much more complex and human and varying.<p><p>And for me, it's just about realness - you know, to be real in my work and to find the comedy of it, as well, because comedy, for me, is the most complex of tones. And to me, you know, all of my friends who are Black and mixed, like, the constant joking around race - that's what separates my experience in Black worlds from my experience in white worlds. It's the levels of irony and comedy that have formed me. Whiteness, to me, was always a space of earnestness or racism. Like, it was one or the other of these. But to me, irony, comedy, nuance, absurdity, have been so much my experience of the way we talk about race in the Black and multiracial Black communities that I've been formed in, really.<p><p>(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)<p><p>LUSE: Well, Danzy, it has been such a pleasure - a dream - to talk to you today. Thank you so, so much. This was great.<p><p>SENNA: This was wonderful. Thanks so much.<p><p>(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)<p><p>LUSE: That was author Danzy Senna. Her book "Colored Television" is out now. Next Tuesday - I repeat, next Tuesday - in this podcast feed, I'm headed to Tulsa, Okla. We're continuing to drop into cities across the country for the SMACKDOWN - a debate over what are the most influential things and people from American cities - in which I ask you, how much do you know about Tulsa? Tune in to the Tulsa SMACKDOWN next Tuesday, wherever you get your podcasts.<p><p>(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)<p><p>LUSE: This episode of IT'S BEEN A MINUTE was produced by...<p><p>BARTON GIRDWOOD, BYLINE: Barton Girdwood.<p><p>ALEXIS WILLIAMS, BYLINE: Alexis Williams.<p><p>LIAM MCBAIN, BYLINE: Liam McBain.<p><p>COREY ANTONIO ROSE, BYLINE: Corey Antonio Rose.<p><p>LUSE: This episode was edited by...<p><p>JESSICA PLACZEK, BYLINE: Jessica Placzek.<p><p>LUSE: Engineering support came from...<p><p>CARLEIGH STRANGE, BYLINE: Carleigh Strange.<p><p>LUSE: Our executive producer is...<p><p>JASMINE ROMERO, BYLINE: Jasmine Romero.<p><p>LUSE: Our VP of programming is...<p><p>YOLANDA SANGWENI, BYLINE: Yolanda Sangweni.<p><p>LUSE: All right. That's all for this episode of IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR. I'm Brittany Luse. Talk soon.<p><p>(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)<p></p> <p class="disclaimer">Copyright © 2024 NPR. All rights reserved. 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