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class="external text" href="http://www.javascriptkit.com/script/script2/charcount.shtml">Character count</a></li> <li><a class="external text" href="https://wordcount.toolforge.org/">A Simple Word Counter</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Template:DYK_checklist" title="Template:DYK checklist">Reviewers' template</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Template:Find_sources" title="Template:Find sources">Find sources (notability)</a></li> <li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:ExpandTemplates?withCSS=MediaWiki:HidefirstHeading.css&wpInput=%7B%7BUser%3AMandarax%2FDYKHookLength%7CDid+you+know+nominations%2FCelie+Ellis+Turner%7D%7D">Hook length</a></li></ul> </div></td> </tr></tbody></table> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading4"><h4 id="Celie_Ellis_Turner">Celie Ellis Turner</h4></div> <div class="dyk-nompage-links plainlinks">( <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1129693374">.mw-parser-output .hlist dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul{margin:0;padding:0}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt,.mw-parser-output .hlist li{margin:0;display:inline}.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul ul{display:inline}.mw-parser-output .hlist .mw-empty-li{display:none}.mw-parser-output .hlist dt::after{content:": "}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li::after{content:" · ";font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li:last-child::after{content:none}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dd:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd 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ol>li{counter-increment:listitem}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol>li::before{content:" "counter(listitem)"\a0 "}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd ol>li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt ol>li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li ol>li:first-child::before{content:" ("counter(listitem)"\a0 "}</style><div class="hlist inline"><ul><li><a href="/wiki/Template_talk:Did_you_know#Celie_Ellis_Turner" title="Template talk:Did you know">Back to T:TDYK</a></li><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Celie_Ellis_Turner&action=history">Article history</a></li></ul></div> )</div> <ul><li>... that despite the classical music education her wealthy family had her study, <b><a href="/wiki/Celie_Ellis_Turner" title="Celie Ellis Turner">Celie Ellis Turner</a></b> chose to join <a href="/wiki/Comic_opera" title="Comic opera">comic opera</a> and <a href="/wiki/Farce" title="Farce">farce</a> theatre over her parents' objections?</li></ul> <div style="font-size:85%;"> <ul><li>Source: * "Miss Ellis is a graduate of the Villa Maria Convent of Montreal, Canada, and received her musical education under Mme. Kartel, taking a post graduate course at the Metropolitan College of Music in New York." - <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-sentinel-celie-ellis/156675948/">Celie Ellis</a>, <i><a href="/wiki/The_Sentinel_(Pennsylvania)" title="The Sentinel (Pennsylvania)">The Sentinel</a></i></li> <li>"She comes from one of the best families in New York, her father having been a Congressman from that State and her mother a near relative of ex-Gov. Seymour. Her family objected strongly to her going on the stage..." - <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.newspapers.com/article/st-louis-post-dispatch-at-the-gardens/156654500/">At The Gardens</a>, <i><a href="/wiki/St._Louis_Post-Dispatch" title="St. Louis Post-Dispatch">St. Louis Post-Dispatch</a></i></li> <li>"Miss Celie Ellis, who has been prominent in comic opera and farce comedy for a number of years..." - <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.newspapers.com/article/minneapolis-daily-times-dramatic/156617730/">Dramatic</a>, <i><a href="/wiki/Minneapolis_Daily_Times" class="mw-redirect" title="Minneapolis Daily Times">Minneapolis Daily Times</a></i></li></ul></div> <li><b>ALT1</b>: ... that despite her classical music education and her family's objections to her becoming a stage actress, <b><a href="/wiki/Celie_Ellis_Turner" title="Celie Ellis Turner">Celie Ellis Turner</a></b> chose to join the theatre to perform <a href="/wiki/Comic_opera" title="Comic opera">comic opera</a> and <a href="/wiki/Farce" title="Farce">farce</a>?</li> <li><b>ALT2</b>: ... that <b><a href="/wiki/Celie_Ellis_Turner" title="Celie Ellis Turner">Celie Ellis Turner</a></b> became a stage actress against her family's wishes, preforming <a href="/wiki/Comic_opera" title="Comic opera">comic opera</a> and <a href="/wiki/Farce" title="Farce">farce</a>? <ul><li><i>Reviewed</i>: <a href="/wiki/Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Hathumoda" title="Template:Did you know nominations/Hathumoda">Template:Did you know nominations/Hathumoda</a></li></ul></li> <div style="font-size:85%;">Created by <a href="/wiki/User:Silver_seren" title="User:Silver seren">Silver seren</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Silver_seren" title="User talk:Silver seren">talk</a>) and <a href="/wiki/User:FloridaArmy" title="User:FloridaArmy">FloridaArmy</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:FloridaArmy" title="User talk:FloridaArmy">talk</a>). Number of QPQs required: <b>1</b>. Nominator has 131 past nominations.</div> <p><a href="/wiki/User:Silver_seren" title="User:Silver seren"><span style="color: dimgrey;">Silver</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Silver_seren" title="User talk:Silver seren"><span style="color: blue;">seren</span></a><sup><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Silver_seren" title="Special:Contributions/Silver seren">C</a></sup> 19:38, 8 October 2024 (UTC). </p> <ul><li>Will review this. <a href="/wiki/User:BeanieFan11" title="User:BeanieFan11">BeanieFan11</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BeanieFan11" title="User talk:BeanieFan11">talk</a>) 22:36, 8 October 2024 (UTC)</li></ul> <table class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" border="1" style="border-collapse:collapse;"> <tbody><tr> <th style="font-weight:normal;"><b>General:</b> Article is new enough and long enough </th></tr> <tr> <td> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Did_you_know#New" title="Wikipedia:Did you know">New enough</a>: <span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="Yes" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="13" height="13" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/20px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/26px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600" /></span></span></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Did_you_know#Long_enough" title="Wikipedia:Did you know">Long enough</a>: <span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="Yes" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="13" height="13" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/20px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/26px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600" /></span></span></li></ul> </td></tr></tbody></table> <table class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" border="1" style="border-collapse:collapse;"> <tbody><tr> <th style="font-weight:normal;"><b>Policy:</b> Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems </th></tr> <tr> <td> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources" title="Wikipedia:Citing sources">Adequate sourcing</a>: <span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="Yes" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="13" height="13" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/20px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/26px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600" /></span></span></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">Neutral</a>: <span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="Yes" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="13" height="13" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/20px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/26px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600" /></span></span></li> <li>Free of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyright_violations" title="Wikipedia:Copyright violations">copyright violations</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Plagiarism" title="Wikipedia:Plagiarism">plagiarism</a>, and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Close_paraphrasing" title="Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing">close paraphrasing</a>: <span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="Yes" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="13" height="13" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/20px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/26px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600" /></span></span></li></ul> </td></tr></tbody></table> <table class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" border="1" style="border-collapse:collapse;"> <tbody><tr> <th style="font-weight:normal;"><b>Hook:</b> Hook has been verified by provided inline citation </th></tr> <tr> <td> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Did_you_know#Cited_hook" title="Wikipedia:Did you know">Cited</a>: <span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="Yes" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="13" height="13" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/20px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/26px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600" /></span></span></li> <li>Interesting: <span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="Yes" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="13" height="13" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/20px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/26px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600" /></span></span></li></ul> </td></tr></tbody></table> <table border="1" style="border-collapse:collapse;"> <tbody><tr> <td><b>QPQ</b>: Done. </td></tr></tbody></table> <p><b>Overall</b>: <span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Symbol_confirmed.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/Symbol_confirmed.svg/16px-Symbol_confirmed.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/Symbol_confirmed.svg/24px-Symbol_confirmed.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/Symbol_confirmed.svg/32px-Symbol_confirmed.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185" /></a></span> Looks good. Nice work. <a href="/wiki/User:BeanieFan11" title="User:BeanieFan11">BeanieFan11</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BeanieFan11" title="User talk:BeanieFan11">talk</a>) 22:43, 8 October 2024 (UTC) </p><p><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Symbol_question.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Symbol_question.svg/16px-Symbol_question.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Symbol_question.svg/24px-Symbol_question.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Symbol_question.svg/32px-Symbol_question.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185" /></a></span> <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:Theleekycauldron" title="User:Theleekycauldron">Theleekycauldron</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:BeanieFan11" title="User:BeanieFan11">BeanieFan11</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Silver_seren" title="User:Silver seren">Silver seren</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Fram" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Fram">Fram</a>, and <a href="/wiki/User:Secretlondon" title="User:Secretlondon">Secretlondon</a>:</span> this nom has been reopened for further thought, following issues raised at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ERRORS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ERRORS">WP:ERRORS</a> (peramlink: <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Main_Page/Errors&oldid=1257455606">[1]</a>) about the hook / article integrity (article talks about an argument over theatre acting, not over comic opera specifically) and also a thought that linking the classical music education to the argument with the family with the word <i>despite</i> isn't supported by sourcing. Suggest a rework to make this more robust.  — <a href="/wiki/User:Amakuru" title="User:Amakuru">Amakuru</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Amakuru" title="User talk:Amakuru">talk</a>) 23:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>I <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Celie_Ellis_Turner&diff=1256113956&oldid=1251949897">made corrections to the article along those lines</a>, but then forgot to go back and update the hook. that one's on me! <a href="/wiki/User:Theleekycauldron" title="User:Theleekycauldron">theleekycauldron</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Theleekycauldron" title="User talk:Theleekycauldron">talk</a> • she/her)</dd></dl> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/User:Amakuru" title="User:Amakuru">Amakuru</a>, this is, honestly, nonsense. Comic opera and farce is the type of theatre acting and performances she went into. They objected to her doing theatre acting and she did anyways, becoming a star in comic opera and farce theatre. Where is the contradiction? <a href="/wiki/User:Silver_seren" title="User:Silver seren"><span style="color: dimgrey;">Silver</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Silver_seren" title="User talk:Silver seren"><span style="color: blue;">seren</span></a><sup><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Silver_seren" title="Special:Contributions/Silver seren">C</a></sup> 00:02, 15 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>As noted, there are two issues that I can see with this. Firstly, the "despite" seems to be misplaced - comic opera is a form of classical music, so it's not like her musical education went to waste while she pursued something totally different. You're inserting a link between those things that isn't sourced. And secondly, the article text and the source specifically say it was stage acting specifically that the family objected to. That might have a logical corrollary that they wouldn't approve of comic opera and farce, but the DYK rules require accuracy in this matter. The hook, article and source must match in what they say, not require logical leaps. Cheers  — <a href="/wiki/User:Amakuru" title="User:Amakuru">Amakuru</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Amakuru" title="User talk:Amakuru">talk</a>) 00:17, 15 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/User:Amakuru" title="User:Amakuru">Amakuru</a>, is that ALT better since I've minorly rearranged things? <a href="/wiki/User:Silver_seren" title="User:Silver seren"><span style="color: dimgrey;">Silver</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Silver_seren" title="User talk:Silver seren"><span style="color: blue;">seren</span></a><sup><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Silver_seren" title="Special:Contributions/Silver seren">C</a></sup> 00:24, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="outdent-template" style="position:relative;left:1px;"><span style="display:block;width:16em;height:0.5em;border-bottom:1px solid #a2a9b1;border-right:1px solid #a2a9b1;"></span><span style="display:block;width:16em;height:0.5em;border-left:1px solid #a2a9b1;"></span></div> <p><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Symbol_redirect_vote_4.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/Symbol_redirect_vote_4.svg/16px-Symbol_redirect_vote_4.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/Symbol_redirect_vote_4.svg/24px-Symbol_redirect_vote_4.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/Symbol_redirect_vote_4.svg/32px-Symbol_redirect_vote_4.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185" /></a></span> Re-review of ALT requested. <a href="/wiki/User:Silver_seren" title="User:Silver seren"><span style="color: dimgrey;">Silver</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Silver_seren" title="User talk:Silver seren"><span style="color: blue;">seren</span></a><sup><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Silver_seren" title="Special:Contributions/Silver seren">C</a></sup> 00:46, 21 November 2024 (UTC) </p><dl><dd>If you are ok with it, <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:Silver_seren" title="User:Silver seren">Silver seren</a>:</span>, I would approve an <b>ALT1b</b>: ... that <a href="/wiki/Celie_Ellis_Turner" title="Celie Ellis Turner">Celie Ellis Turner</a> became a stage actress against her family's wishes, preforming <a href="/wiki/Comic_opera" title="Comic opera">comic opera</a> and <a href="/wiki/Farce" title="Farce">farce</a>? There is nothing interesting about classically educated and being a comic opera actress, since comic opera is a type of classical music, and in fact the <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-sentinel-celie-ellis/156675948/"><i>Sentinel</i> article</a> that is used to source her education seems to mention it to bolster her credentials. As such, the fact shouldn't be in the hook. Capish? <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mach61" title="User talk:Mach61">Mach61</a> 01:46, 24 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>Sure, I've added that as ALT2. <a href="/wiki/User:Silver_seren" title="User:Silver seren"><span style="color: dimgrey;">Silver</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Silver_seren" title="User talk:Silver seren"><span style="color: blue;">seren</span></a><sup><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Silver_seren" title="Special:Contributions/Silver seren">C</a></sup> 01:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd><span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:Silver_seren" title="User:Silver seren">Silver seren</a>:</span> I hate to renege on what I said a few minutes ago, I really do, but I don't think I can approve this article. All the sources used in the body of the article (1-13, 14-30 just cite the plays she was in) are from over a century ago, and all but one specifically from the years 1885-1900, and all from <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NEWSPRIMARY" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NEWSPRIMARY">WP:NEWSPRIMARY</a> sources. I thought it would be easy, based on the volume of contemporary coverage she recieved, to find one book or article on historical theater from after her death mentioning her, but there really doesn't appear to be anything like that. Seeing as I'm not certain she's notable I don't think I can approve this article. Again, very sorry <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mach61" title="User talk:Mach61">Mach61</a> 02:15, 24 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>I'm really confused on your understanding of notability. There is no requirement whatsoever that there be modern coverage of an article. If that was the case, we'd end up eventually deleting almost all biography articles because coverage of them would eventually stop. And that's also not how NEWSPRIMARY works. Sources like <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-sentinel-celie-ellis/156675948/">this</a> are significant coverage of the subject and her history. The play that is happening at the time would make the article a primary source on that if it was just mentioning that happening, but the article is about Turner, the main person who will be performing in that play and her history. Turner is not an event. <a href="/wiki/User:Silver_seren" title="User:Silver seren"><span style="color: dimgrey;">Silver</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Silver_seren" title="User talk:Silver seren"><span style="color: blue;">seren</span></a><sup><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Silver_seren" title="Special:Contributions/Silver seren">C</a></sup> 02:49, 24 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:Silver_seren" title="User:Silver seren">Silver seren</a>:</span> some responses</dd></dl> <ul><li><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1248585704">@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{font-family:Georgia,"DejaVu Serif",serif;color:#008560;quotes:none}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-italic{font-family:inherit;font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-marks{quotes:"\"""\""}</style><q class="inline-quote-talk">There is no requirement whatsoever that there be modern coverage of an article. If that was the case, we'd end up eventually deleting almost all biography articles because coverage of them would eventually stop</q> My concern isn't that there aren't sources some arbitrary number of years close to the present day, which would lead to the problem you describe, but rather that there aren't sources distanced from the timeframe where she was actively preforming (to the point where we her date of death isn't even stated). An obituary from the 1940s, or a mention in a journal of theater studies from that same time, would both suffice on that front. If I saw evidence such sources existed at all, I would be fine approving the article and adding <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Refideas" title="Template:Refideas">refideas</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> to talk, but they don't appear to.</li> <li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">And that's also not how NEWSPRIMARY works. Sources like this are significant coverage of the subject and her history.</q> You're right, I should not have said <i>all</i> the sources were primary. I guess that I turned to that essay as a poor surrogate for explaing my concerns about an article based almost entirely on late 19th-century newspaper clippings, which are that <ol><li>Newspapers that far back were just a lot worse at fact-checking and had lower standards compared to now, in a much more significant way then newspapers of, say, the 1970s <span style="font-size:80%;">(hell, some people might argue that newspapers were better in the 70s comparted to today because the internet and corporate consolidation hadn't hollowed them out)</span></li> <li>Such an article can't place its subject in its proper historical context, particularly when it comes to the end of the subject's period of covered activity, so the end of the article will just be whatever random thing the last clipping talks about and their fate from then on is totally unknown.</li></ol></li></ul> <dl><dd>These aren't really issues that can be cited to a part of the notability or DYK guidelines specifically, but more fundamental value concerns with what I think is necessary for a good encyclopedia article. The ideal way to test if I actually have a point in holding up the nomination over this would be to start an AfD, but that would probably force <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DYKTIMEOUT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DYKTIMEOUT">WP:DYKTIMEOUT</a> which isn't fair, so I'll bow out and ask for another reviewer on WT:DYK <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mach61" title="User talk:Mach61">Mach61</a> 05:53, 24 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Symbol_redirect_vote_4.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/Symbol_redirect_vote_4.svg/16px-Symbol_redirect_vote_4.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/Symbol_redirect_vote_4.svg/24px-Symbol_redirect_vote_4.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/Symbol_redirect_vote_4.svg/32px-Symbol_redirect_vote_4.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185" /></a></span>. Going to sleep right after this, if you want a response from me don't expect it for another several hours <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mach61" title="User talk:Mach61">Mach61</a> 05:55, 24 November 2024 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Celie_Ellis_Turner&oldid=1259255565">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Celie_Ellis_Turner&oldid=1259255565</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-normal-catlinks" class="mw-normal-catlinks"><a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">Categories</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Pending_DYK_nominations" title="Category:Pending DYK nominations">Pending DYK nominations</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Pending_DYK_biographies" title="Category:Pending DYK biographies">Pending DYK biographies</a></li></ul></div></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 24 November 2024, at 05:55<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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