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id="toc-Rotten_Tomatoes_and_Metacritic_to_support_"positive",_"mixed",_"negative"-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Soundtrack_track_lists_in_film_articles" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Soundtrack_track_lists_in_film_articles"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">2</span> <span>Soundtrack track lists in film articles</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Soundtrack_track_lists_in_film_articles-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Nationality_of_film" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Nationality_of_film"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">3</span> <span>Nationality of film</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">32 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Nationality_of_film-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Referenced_filming_locations_-_yay_or_nay?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Referenced_filming_locations_-_yay_or_nay?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">4</span> <span>Referenced filming locations - yay or nay?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">9 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Referenced_filming_locations_-_yay_or_nay?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Years_in_film" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Years_in_film"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">5</span> <span>Years in film</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">8 comments</span> <button aria-controls="toc-Years_in_film-sublist" class="cdx-button cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only vector-toc-toggle"> <span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-expand"></span> <span>Toggle Years in film subsection</span> </button> <ul id="toc-Years_in_film-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> <li id="toc-Semi-protected_edit_request_on_21_August_2024" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Semi-protected_edit_request_on_21_August_2024"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">5.1</span> <span>Semi-protected edit request on 21 August 2024</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Semi-protected_edit_request_on_21_August_2024-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-MOS_guidance_on_short_desciptions" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#MOS_guidance_on_short_desciptions"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">6</span> <span>MOS guidance on short 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class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">7 comments</span> <ul id="toc-"Internationally_co-produced"-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Film_series" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Film_series"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">9</span> <span>Film series</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Film_series-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-"Received_negative_reviews_but_was_a_box_office_success..."" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#"Received_negative_reviews_but_was_a_box_office_success...""> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">10</span> <span>"Received negative reviews but was a box office success..."</span> </div> </a> <span 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.tmbox{background-color:#2e2505}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .tmbox{background-color:#2e2505}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}body.skin--responsive .mw-parser-output table.tmbox img{max-width:none!important}</style><table class="box-Notice plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/40px-Information_icon4.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/60px-Information_icon4.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/80px-Information_icon4.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="620" data-file-height="620"/></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text" style="text-align: left;">To discuss the <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Infobox_film" title="Template:Infobox film">Infobox film</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> template and its parameters, please visit <a href="/wiki/Template_talk:Infobox_film" title="Template talk:Infobox film">Template talk:Infobox film</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1243927654">.mw-parser-output .banner-shell{border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:4px}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell-header{text-align:center;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell-inner{padding:2px 4px;background:#fffaef;color:inherit;border:1px dotted gray}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .banner-shell-inner{background:#2e2505}}@media screen and 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src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/72/Symbol_project_class.svg/35px-Symbol_project_class.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="36" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/72/Symbol_project_class.svg/53px-Symbol_project_class.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/72/Symbol_project_class.svg/70px-Symbol_project_class.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/></a></span></td><td class="banner-shell-header" style="text-align:left;font-weight:normal">This project page does not require a rating on Wikipedia's <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_assessment" title="Wikipedia:Content assessment">content assessment</a> scale.<br/>It is of interest to the following <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject">WikiProjects</a>:</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="banner-shell-inner outercollapse"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1256394742">.mw-parser-output .wpb-header,.mw-parser-output .wpb-metadata,.mw-parser-output .wpb-iefix{display:none}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-name{text-align:right;padding:0.3em 1em 0.3em 0.3em;width:50%;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-assessment{text-align:left;width:50%;padding:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-combined{text-align:left;padding:0.3em 0.3em 0.3em 0;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-bubbles{border-radius:.5em;padding:0 .3em;margin-left:0.5em;white-space:nowrap;font-weight:normal;color:black}.mw-parser-output .wpb-nested-task-force{font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-icon{width:50px;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#F5F5F5;border-width:1px;width:500px}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main{background-color:#FFFAEF;padding:3px 0 3px 0.7em}.mw-parser-output .wpb .wpb-main{padding:3px 5px}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#FFFAEF}.mw-parser-output .wpb-main>table{background-color:transparent;border:none;padding:0;width:100%;border-spacing:0}.mw-parser-output .wpb .wpb-image{padding:2px 0}.mw-parser-output .wpb-collapsed-head{text-align:left;padding:0.2em 2px 0.2em 0}.mw-parser-output .wpb-collapsed-notes{padding:0}.mw-parser-output .wpb-collapsed-notes>table{width:100%;background-color:transparent}.mw-parser-output .wpb .wpb-gutter{padding:2px 0 0 0}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#f8eaba;border:none}.mw-parser-output .wpb-table{table-layout:fixed}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .wpb{min-width:80%}}.mw-parser-output .assess{font-weight:bold;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;color:black}.mw-parser-output .import-top{background-color:#FFBFFF}.mw-parser-output .import-high{background-color:#FFCCFF}.mw-parser-output .import-mid{background-color:#FFD9FF}.mw-parser-output .import-low{background-color:#FFE7FF}.mw-parser-output .import-bottom{background-color:#FFEBFF}.mw-parser-output .import-na{background-color:#F5F5F5}.mw-parser-output .import-unknown{background-color:#DCDCDC}.mw-parser-output .class-fa,.mw-parser-output .class-fl,.mw-parser-output .class-fm{background-color:#BED3FF}.mw-parser-output .class-a,.mw-parser-output .class-al{background-color:#C0FFFF}.mw-parser-output .class-ga{background-color:#C0FFC0}.mw-parser-output .class-b,.mw-parser-output .class-bl{background-color:#DFFFBF}.mw-parser-output .class-c,.mw-parser-output .class-cl{background-color:#FFFFBE}.mw-parser-output .class-start{background-color:#FFDBBF}.mw-parser-output .class-stub,.mw-parser-output .class-sl{background-color:#FFC0C0}.mw-parser-output .class-list{background-color:#D2C0FF}.mw-parser-output .class-na{background-color:#F5F5F5}.mw-parser-output .class-category{background-color:#FFDB58}.mw-parser-output .class-disambig{background-color:#00FA9A}.mw-parser-output .class-draft{background-color:#E7B198}.mw-parser-output .class-file{background-color:#DDCCFF}.mw-parser-output .class-future{background-color:#B4BBFF}.mw-parser-output .class-portal{background-color:#DDB1BC}.mw-parser-output .class-project{background-color:#C0C090}.mw-parser-output .class-redirect{background-color:#C0C0C0}.mw-parser-output .class-sia{background-color:#E9DAFF}.mw-parser-output .class-user{background-color:#DDD06A}.mw-parser-output .class-template{background-color:#FBCEB1}.mw-parser-output .class-unassessed{background-color:#DCDCDC}.mw-parser-output .conflict{border:0.2em solid red}.mw-parser-output .inactive-wikiproject .wpb-header-bubbles{color:inherit}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}</style><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Video-x-generic.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e7/Video-x-generic.svg/25px-Video-x-generic.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e7/Video-x-generic.svg/38px-Video-x-generic.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e7/Video-x-generic.svg/50px-Video-x-generic.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film">Film</a> </td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Video-x-generic.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e7/Video-x-generic.svg/50px-Video-x-generic.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e7/Video-x-generic.svg/75px-Video-x-generic.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e7/Video-x-generic.svg/100px-Video-x-generic.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1239009302">.mw-parser-output .portalbox{padding:0;margin:0.5em 0;display:table;box-sizing:border-box;max-width:175px;list-style:none}.mw-parser-output .portalborder{border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:0.1em;background:var(--background-color-neutral-subtle,#f8f9fa)}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-entry{display:table-row;font-size:85%;line-height:110%;height:1.9em;font-style:italic;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-image{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em;vertical-align:middle;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-link{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em;vertical-align:middle}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .portalleft{clear:left;float:left;margin:0.5em 1em 0.5em 0}.mw-parser-output .portalright{clear:right;float:right;margin:0.5em 0 0.5em 1em}}</style><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e7/Video-x-generic.svg/28px-Video-x-generic.svg.png" decoding="async" width="28" height="28" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e7/Video-x-generic.svg/42px-Video-x-generic.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e7/Video-x-generic.svg/56px-Video-x-generic.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Film" title="Portal:Film">Film portal</a></span></li></ul>This page is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film">WikiProject Film</a></b>. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film">join the discussion</a> and see lists of <a href="/wiki/Template:WPFILM_Announcements" title="Template:WPFILM Announcements">open tasks</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film#Task_forces" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film">regional and topical task forces</a>. To use this banner, please refer to the <a href="/wiki/Template:WikiProject_Film/doc" title="Template:WikiProject Film/doc">documentation</a>. To improve this article, please refer to the <a href="/wiki/MOS:FILM" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:FILM">guidelines</a>.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Film</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Film</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Film</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">film articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256394742"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png/25px-Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png/38px-Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png/50px-Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png 2x" data-file-width="120" data-file-height="120"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Manual_of_Style" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Manual of Style">Manual of Style</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles"><span class="mw-default-size" typeof="mw:File"><span title="This page falls under the contentious topics procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Wikipedia Manual of Style, and the article titles policy. Both areas are subjects of debate. Contributors are urged to review the awareness criteria carefully and exercise caution when editing."><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg/20px-Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg/30px-Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg/40px-Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"/></span></span></span> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles"><span class="mw-default-size" typeof="mw:File"><span title="For information on Wikipedia's approach to the establishment of new policies and guidelines, refer to WP:PROPOSAL. Additionally, guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Wikipedia policies of Wikipedia's policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations."><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Emblem-important.svg/20px-Emblem-important.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Emblem-important.svg/30px-Emblem-important.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Emblem-important.svg/40px-Emblem-important.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"/></span></span></span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png/45px-Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png" decoding="async" width="45" height="45" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png/68px-Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png/90px-Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png 2x" data-file-width="120" data-file-height="120"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This page falls within the scope of the <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Wikipedia:Manual of Style</a></b>, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Manual of Style</a> (MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Manual of Style</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Manual of Style</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Manual of Style</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Manual of Style articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Note icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg/25px-Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg/38px-Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg/50px-Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2"><b>This page falls under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Contentious_topics" title="Wikipedia:Contentious topics">contentious topics</a> procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Wikipedia <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Manual of Style</a>, and the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_titles" title="Wikipedia:Article titles">article titles policy</a>. Both areas are subjects of debate.</b><br/>Contributors are urged to review the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Contentious_topics#Awareness_of_contentious_topics" title="Wikipedia:Contentious topics">awareness criteria</a> carefully and exercise caution when editing.</td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Emblem-important.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Note icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Emblem-important.svg/25px-Emblem-important.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Emblem-important.svg/38px-Emblem-important.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Emblem-important.svg/50px-Emblem-important.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">For information on Wikipedia's approach to the establishment of new <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines" title="Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines">policies and guidelines</a>, refer to <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines#Proposals" title="Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines">WP:PROPOSAL</a></b>. Additionally, <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:How_to_contribute_to_Wikipedia_guidance" title="Wikipedia:How to contribute to Wikipedia guidance">guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Wikipedia policies</a></b> of Wikipedia's policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1252059228">.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutboxplain{float:right;margin:0 0 0 1em;border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);background-color:var(--background-color-base,#fff);padding:0.3em 0.6em 0.2em 0.6em;text-align:center;font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutboxleft{float:left;margin:0 1em 0 0}.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutlist{display:inline-block;border-bottom:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);margin-bottom:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutboxplain ul{font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutanchordiv{position:relative;top:-3em}.mw-parser-output li .module-shortcutanchordiv{float:right}.mw-parser-output .mbox-imageright .module-shortcutboxplain{padding:0.4em 1em 0.4em 1em;line-height:1.3;margin:0}</style><div class="module-shortcutanchordiv"><span id="WT:MOSFILM"></span></div><div class="module-shortcutboxplain noprint" role="note"><div class="module-shortcutlist"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Shortcut" title="Wikipedia:Shortcut">Shortcut</a></div><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1126788409">.mw-parser-output .plainlist ol,.mw-parser-output .plainlist ul{line-height:inherit;list-style:none;margin:0;padding:0}.mw-parser-output .plainlist ol li,.mw-parser-output .plainlist ul li{margin-bottom:0}</style><div class="plainlist"><ul><li><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:MOSFILM&redirect=no">WT:MOSFILM</a></span></li></ul></div></div> <table class="noprint" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="box-sizing: border-box; width: 238px; line-height: 1.25em; float: right; clear: right; border: 1px solid #484898; border-collapse: collapse; margin: 0em 0em 1em 1em; background-color: #484898; font-size: 90%"> <tbody><tr> <th style="background-color: white; padding: 5px; border-bottom: 1px solid black"> <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%" style="background-color: transparent"> <tbody><tr> <td><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Video-x-generic.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e7/Video-x-generic.svg/50px-Video-x-generic.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e7/Video-x-generic.svg/75px-Video-x-generic.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e7/Video-x-generic.svg/100px-Video-x-generic.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"/></a></span> </td> <td><big><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film">WikiProject Film</a></big> </td></tr></tbody></table> </th></tr> <tr> <td> <table cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%" style="background-color: lavender"> <tbody><tr style="background-color: silver"> <th colspan="2" style="text-align: left; border-top: 1px solid black; border-bottom: 1px dotted dimgray">General information (<style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1129693374">.mw-parser-output .hlist dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul{margin:0;padding:0}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt,.mw-parser-output .hlist li{margin:0;display:inline}.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol 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.navbar{display:none!important}}</style><div class="navbar plainlinks hlist navbar-mini"><ul><li class="nv-view"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Sidebar" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Sidebar"><abbr title="View this template">v</abbr></a></li><li class="nv-talk"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Sidebar" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Sidebar"><abbr title="Discuss this template">t</abbr></a></li><li class="nv-edit"><a href="/wiki/Special:EditPage/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Sidebar" title="Special:EditPage/Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Sidebar"><abbr title="Edit this template">e</abbr></a></li></ul></div>) </th></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film">Main project page</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film&action=edit&section=new">+</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td>→ <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Archive_index" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Archive index">Discussion archives</a> </td> <td> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Film" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Film">Style guidelines</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(film)" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (film)">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td>→ <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Multimedia" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Multimedia">Multimedia</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Multimedia" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Multimedia">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td>→ <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(films)" title="Wikipedia:Naming conventions (films)">Naming conventions</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(films)" title="Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (films)">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td>→ <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Style_guidelines/Copy-editing_essentials" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Style guidelines/Copy-editing essentials">Copy-editing essentials</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Style_guidelines/Copy-editing_essentials" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Style guidelines/Copy-editing essentials">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(films)" title="Wikipedia:Notability (films)">Notability guidelines</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(films)" title="Wikipedia talk:Notability (films)">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Template:WPFILM_Announcements" title="Template:WPFILM Announcements">Announcements and open tasks</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Template_talk:WPFILM_Announcements" title="Template talk:WPFILM Announcements">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td>→ <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Article_alerts" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Article alerts">Article alerts</a> </td> <td> </td></tr> <tr> <td>→ <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Cleanup_listing" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Cleanup listing">Cleanup listing</a> </td> <td> </td></tr> <tr> <td>→ <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/New_articles" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/New articles">New articles</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/New_articles" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/New articles">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td>→ <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Deletion_sorting/Film" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Film">Nominations for deletion</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Deletion_sorting/Film" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Film">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td>→ <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Popular_pages" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Popular pages">Popular pages</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td>→ <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Requests" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Requests">Requests</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Requests" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Requests">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Spotlight" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Spotlight">Spotlight</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Spotlight" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Spotlight">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Portal:Film" title="Portal:Film">Film portal</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Portal_talk:Film" title="Portal talk:Film">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fiction/Noticeboard" title="Wikipedia:Fiction/Noticeboard">Fiction noticeboard</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fiction/Noticeboard" title="Wikipedia:Fiction/Noticeboard">talk</a> </td></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr> <tr> <td> <table class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%" style="background-color: lavender"> <tbody><tr style="background-color: silver"> <th colspan="2" style="text-align: left; border-top: 1px solid black"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film#Project_organization" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film">Project organization</a> </th></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Coordinators" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Coordinators">Coordinators</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Coordinators" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Coordinators">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Participants" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Participants">Participants</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Participants" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Participants">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Template:WikiProject_Film" title="Template:WikiProject Film">Project banner</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Template_talk:WikiProject_Film" title="Template talk:WikiProject Film">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_Film" title="Category:WikiProject Film">Project category</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Category_talk:WikiProject_Film" title="Category talk:WikiProject Film">talk</a> </td></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr> <tr> <td> <table class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%" style="background-color: lavender"> <tbody><tr style="background-color: silver"> <th colspan="2" style="text-align: left; border-top: 1px solid black"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film#Departments" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film">Departments</a> </th></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Assessment" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Assessment">Assessment</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Assessment" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Assessment">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td>→ <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Assessment/B-Class" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Assessment/B-Class">B-Class</a> </td> <td> </td></tr> <tr> <td>→ <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Assessment/Instructions" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Assessment/Instructions">Instructions</a> </td> <td> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Categorization" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Categorization">Categorization</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Categorization" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Categorization">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Core" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Core">Core</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Core" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Core">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Outreach" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Outreach">Outreach</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Outreach" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Outreach">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Resources" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Resources">Resources</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Resources" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Resources">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Review" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Review">Review</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Review" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Review">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Spotlight" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Spotlight">Spotlight</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Spotlight" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Spotlight">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td>→ <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Spotlight_cleanup_listing" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Spotlight cleanup listing">Spotlight cleanup listing</a> </td> <td> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Topic_workshop" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Topic workshop">Topic workshop</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Topic_workshop" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Topic workshop">talk</a> </td></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr> <tr> <td> <table class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%" style="background-color: lavender"> <tbody><tr style="background-color: silver"> <th colspan="2" style="text-align: left; border-top: 1px solid black"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film#Task_forces" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film">Task forces</a> </th></tr> <tr style="background-color: white"> <td colspan="2" style="border-top: 1px dotted dimgray"><i>General topics</i> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Film_awards_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Film awards task force">Film awards</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Film_awards_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Film awards task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Film_festivals_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Film festivals task force">Film festivals</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Film_festivals_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Film festivals task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Film_finance_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Film finance task force">Film finance</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Film_finance_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Film finance task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Filmmaking_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Filmmaking task force">Filmmaking</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Filmmaking_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Filmmaking task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Silent_films_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Silent films task force">Silent films</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Silent_films_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Silent films task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr style="background-color:white"> <td colspan="2" style="border-top: 1px dotted dimgray"><i>Genre</i> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Animated_films_task_force" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Animated films task force">Animated films</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Animated_films_task_force" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Animated films task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Christian_films_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Christian films task force">Christian films</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Christian_films_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Christian films task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Comic_book_films_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Comic book films task force">Comic book films</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Comic_book_films_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Comic book films task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Documentary_films_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Documentary films task force">Documentary films</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Documentary_films_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Documentary films task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Marvel_Cinematic_Universe_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Marvel Cinematic Universe task force">Marvel Cinematic Universe</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Marvel_Cinematic_Universe_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Marvel Cinematic Universe task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Animation/Skydance_Media_work_group" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Animation/Skydance Media work group">Skydance Media</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Animation/Skydance_Media_work_group" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Animation/Skydance Media work group">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/War_films_task_force" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/War films task force">War films</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/War_films_task_force" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/War films task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Avant-garde_and_experimental_films_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Avant-garde and experimental films task force">Avant-garde and experimental films</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Avant-garde_and_experimental_films_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Avant-garde and experimental films task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr style="background-color:white"> <td colspan="2" style="border-top: 1px dotted dimgray"><i>National and regional</i> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/American_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/American cinema task force">American cinema</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/American_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/American cinema task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Argentine_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Argentine cinema task force">Argentine cinema</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Argentine_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Argentine cinema task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Australian_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Australian cinema task force">Australian cinema</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Australian_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Australian cinema task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Baltic_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Baltic cinema task force">Baltic cinema</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Baltic_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Baltic cinema task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Belgian_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Belgian cinema task force">Belgian cinema</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Belgian_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Belgian cinema task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/British_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/British cinema task force">British cinema</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/British_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/British cinema task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Canadian_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Canadian cinema task force">Canadian cinema</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Canadian_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Canadian cinema task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Chinese_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Chinese cinema task force">Chinese cinema</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Chinese_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Chinese cinema task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/French_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/French cinema task force">French cinema</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/French_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/French cinema task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/German_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/German cinema task force">German cinema</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/German_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/German cinema task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Indian_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Indian cinema task force">Indian cinema</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Indian_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Indian cinema task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Italian_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Italian cinema task force">Italian cinema</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Italian_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Italian cinema task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Japanese_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Japanese cinema task force">Japanese cinema</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Japanese_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Japanese cinema task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Korean_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Korean cinema task force">Korean cinema</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Korean_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Korean cinema task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Mexican_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Mexican cinema task force">Mexican cinema</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Mexican_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Mexican cinema task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/New_Zealand_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/New Zealand cinema task force">New Zealand cinema</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/New_Zealand_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/New Zealand cinema task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Nordic_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Nordic cinema task force">Nordic cinema</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Nordic_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Nordic cinema task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Pakistani_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Pakistani cinema task force">Pakistani cinema</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Pakistani_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Pakistani cinema task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Persian_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Persian cinema task force">Persian cinema</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Persian_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Persian cinema task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Southeast_Asian_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Southeast Asian cinema task force">Southeast Asian cinema</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Southeast_Asian_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Southeast Asian cinema task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Soviet_and_post-Soviet_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Soviet and post-Soviet cinema task force">Soviet and post-Soviet cinema</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Soviet_and_post-Soviet_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Soviet and post-Soviet cinema task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Spanish_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Spanish cinema task force">Spanish cinema</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Spanish_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Spanish cinema task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Uruguayan_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Uruguayan cinema task force">Uruguayan cinema</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Uruguayan_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Uruguayan cinema task force">talk</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Venezuela/Venezuelan_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Venezuela/Venezuelan cinema task force">Venezuelan cinema</a> </td> <td style="text-align: right"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Venezuela/Venezuelan_cinema_task_force" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Venezuela/Venezuelan cinema task force">talk</a> </td></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr> <tr> <td> <table class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%" style="background-color: lavender"> <tbody><tr style="background-color: silver"> <th colspan="2" style="text-align: left; border-top: 1px solid black"><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_Film_templates" title="Category:WikiProject Film templates">Templates</a> </th></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Template:WikiProject_Film" title="Template:WikiProject Film">banner</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_AV_media" title="Template:Cite AV media">DVD citation</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_AV_media_notes" title="Template:Cite AV media notes">DVD liner notes citation</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Template:Infobox_film" title="Template:Infobox film">infobox</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Template:WPFILM_Invite" title="Template:WPFILM Invite">invite</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Template:Plot" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Plot">plot cleanup</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Stub_types/Culture#Theatre_and_film" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Stub types/Culture">stub</a> </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Template:User_WikiProject_Film" title="Template:User WikiProject Film">userbox</a> </td></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"> <table id="archivebox" role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice mbox-small" style="text-align: center; padding: 1em;"> <tbody><tr> <td style="padding:0.6em 0 0.25em;"> <div style="width:100%; overflow:hidden;"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/40px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/60px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/80px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="200" data-file-height="200"/></a></span><br/><b>Archives</b></div> </td></tr><tr> <td class="plainlinks"> <p><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_index" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive index">Index</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_1" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 1">1</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_2" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 2">2</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_3" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 3">3</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_4" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 4">4</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_5" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 5">5</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_6" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 6">6</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_7" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 7">7</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_8" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 8">8</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_9" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 9">9</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_10" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 10">10</a><br/><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_11" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 11">11</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_12" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 12">12</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_13" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 13">13</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_14" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 14">14</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_15" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 15">15</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_16" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 16">16</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_17" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 17">17</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_18" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 18">18</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_19" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 19">19</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_20" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 20">20</a><br/><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_21" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 21">21</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_22" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 22">22</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_23" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 23">23</a> </p> </td> </tr><tr><td style="padding-bottom:11px"><div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style=""><form name="searchbox" class="searchbox mw-inputbox-form" action="/wiki/Special:Search"><div class="cdx-text-input"><input class="mw-inputbox-input mw-searchInput searchboxInput cdx-text-input__input" name="search" placeholder="" size="22" dir="ltr"/></div><input type="hidden" value="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/" name="prefix"/><br/><input type="submit" name="fulltext" value="Search archives" class="cdx-button"/><input type="hidden" value="Search" name="fulltext"/></form></div> </td></tr><tr><td style="padding:0px 10px; font-size:11.9px;"> <hr/> This page has archives. Sections older than <b>30 days</b> may be automatically archived by <span class="nowraplinks"><a href="/wiki/User:Lowercase_sigmabot_III" title="User:Lowercase sigmabot III">Lowercase sigmabot III</a></span> when more than 10 sections are present.</td></tr> </tbody></table> <p class="mw-empty-elt"> </p><p><br/> </p> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Rotten_Tomatoes_and_Metacritic_to_support_"positive",_"mixed",_"negative"" data-mw-thread-id="h-Rotten_Tomatoes_and_Metacritic_to_support_"positive",_"mixed",_"negative"-20231008130100"><span id="Rotten_Tomatoes_and_Metacritic_to_support_.22positive.22.2C_.22mixed.22.2C_.22negative.22"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Rotten_Tomatoes_and_Metacritic_to_support_"positive",_"mixed",_"negative"-20231008130100"></span>Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic to support "positive", "mixed", "negative"<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Rotten_Tomatoes_and_Metacritic_to_support_"positive",_"mixed",_"negative"-20231008130100"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic to support "positive", "mixed", "negative""><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-KyleJoan-20231008130100-Rotten_Tomatoes_and_Metacritic_to_support_"positive",_"mixed",_"negative""></span>I've encountered uses of RT and MC (or just one) to support the quoted terms as part of neutral claims about films' reviews. Since RT requires our interpretation of its scores, I don't believe the scores themselves are sufficient to support the quoted terms–the elements being praised and criticized notwithstanding since the site's critics' consensus often specify these. MT, on the other hand, does not require interpretation since they indicate what the scores mean. That said, I also believe that MT is one source and that its content should be demonstrated as <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DUE">due</a>. I propose adding a version of this clause to the MOS: </p> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1244412712">.mw-parser-output .templatequote{overflow:hidden;margin:1em 0;padding:0 32px}.mw-parser-output .templatequotecite{line-height:1.5em;text-align:left;margin-top:0}@media(min-width:500px){.mw-parser-output .templatequotecite{padding-left:1.6em}}</style><blockquote class="templatequote"><p>Rotten Tomatoes does not specify whether critics' overall perception of a film is positive, mixed, or negative, therefore, it should not be used to support claims about films' general critical reception. Metacritic, which provides brief descriptions of what their scores indicate, may be used when the claim it supports is demonstrated as <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DUE">due</a>.</p></blockquote> <p><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:KyleJoan&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:KyleJoan (page does not exist)"><span style="font-family:Consolas; color:#CD8C95"><b>K</b>yle<b>J</b>oan</span></a><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:KyleJoan" title="User talk:KyleJoan"><span style="font-family:Consolas; color:#8B6969">talk</span></a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-KyleJoan-20231008130100-Rotten_Tomatoes_and_Metacritic_to_support_"positive",_"mixed",_"negative"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:01, 8 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-KyleJoan-20231008130100-Rotten_Tomatoes_and_Metacritic_to_support_"positive",_"mixed",_"negative""><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-KyleJoan-20231008130100-Rotten_Tomatoes_and_Metacritic_to_support_"positive",_"mixed",_"negative""></span> </p><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Doniago-20231008155000-KyleJoan-20231008130100"></span>I'm a little concerned that this would be instruction creep that's already covered by <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Review_aggregators" title="Wikipedia:Review aggregators">Wikipedia:Review aggregators</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Doniago" title="User:Doniago">DonIago</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Doniago" title="User talk:Doniago">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Doniago-20231008155000-KyleJoan-20231008130100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:50, 8 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Doniago-20231008155000-KyleJoan-20231008130100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Doniago-20231008155000-KyleJoan-20231008130100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GoneIn60-20231009174500-Doniago-20231008155000"></span>Except that <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:AGG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:AGG">WP:AGG</a> is just an essay that doesn't have any teeth. --<a href="/wiki/User:GoneIn60" title="User:GoneIn60">GoneIn60</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GoneIn60" title="User talk:GoneIn60">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-GoneIn60-20231009174500-Doniago-20231008155000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:45, 9 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GoneIn60-20231009174500-Doniago-20231008155000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GoneIn60-20231009174500-Doniago-20231008155000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Doniago-20231009214300-GoneIn60-20231009174500"></span>Maybe some of the text from there should be promoted to here, then? <a href="/wiki/User:Doniago" title="User:Doniago">DonIago</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Doniago" title="User talk:Doniago">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Doniago-20231009214300-GoneIn60-20231009174500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:43, 9 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Doniago-20231009214300-GoneIn60-20231009174500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Doniago-20231009214300-GoneIn60-20231009174500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SMcCandlish-20240325142200-Doniago-20231009214300"></span>Well, yes, that's essentially what's being proposed here, except not just copy-pasting wording from the essay. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish"><b>SMcCandlish</b></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 </span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-SMcCandlish-20240325142200-Doniago-20231009214300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:22, 25 March 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SMcCandlish-20240325142200-Doniago-20231009214300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SMcCandlish-20240325142200-Doniago-20231009214300"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-NinjaRobotPirate-20231009033200-KyleJoan-20231008130100"></span>What? Rotten Tomatoes does <b>not</b> require any interpretation on our part, and I'm ready to start blocking people who violate <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NOR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NOR">WP:NOR</a>. It quite clearly states whether a film is "fresh" or "rotten". Rotten Tomatoes is also much more prominent than Metacritic. <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.vulture.com/article/rotten-tomatoes-movie-rating.html">This article</a> from <i><a href="/wiki/Vulture_(website)" title="Vulture (website)">Vulture</a></i> is pretty clear that it is central to the popularity of films despite its limitations and flaws. <a href="/wiki/User:NinjaRobotPirate" title="User:NinjaRobotPirate">NinjaRobotPirate</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NinjaRobotPirate" title="User talk:NinjaRobotPirate">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-NinjaRobotPirate-20231009033200-KyleJoan-20231008130100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:32, 9 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-NinjaRobotPirate-20231009033200-KyleJoan-20231008130100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-NinjaRobotPirate-20231009033200-KyleJoan-20231008130100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-KyleJoan-20231009044300-NinjaRobotPirate-20231009033200"></span>My points about interpretation were specifically regarding scores' relation to "positive", "mixed", "negative" and using RT by itself to support those terms. "Critical reaction to [<i>Ghosts of Girlfriends Past</i>] was negative" on <a href="/wiki/Emma_Stone" title="Emma Stone">Emma Stone</a> and "[<i>Deep Water</i>] received largely negative reviews" on <a href="/wiki/Ben_Affleck" title="Ben Affleck">Ben Affleck</a>, both featured articles, are two of many examples I could provide. Would you consider these instances NOR failures? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:KyleJoan&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:KyleJoan (page does not exist)"><span style="font-family:Consolas; color:#CD8C95"><b>K</b>yle<b>J</b>oan</span></a><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:KyleJoan" title="User talk:KyleJoan"><span style="font-family:Consolas; color:#8B6969">talk</span></a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-KyleJoan-20231009044300-NinjaRobotPirate-20231009033200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:43, 9 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-KyleJoan-20231009044300-NinjaRobotPirate-20231009033200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-KyleJoan-20231009044300-NinjaRobotPirate-20231009033200"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MapReader-20231009060500-NinjaRobotPirate-20231009033200"></span>My objection to the RT terminology would be a different one - “fresh” and “rotten” are jargon, related to tomatoes, and familiar to readers who already visit those sites or who edit film articles regularly. But for the casual reader, remembering that WP is used by English-speakers all around the world, quoting the term “certified fresh” in relation to the quality of a film surely needs explanation, and must leave some readers completely mystified. That isn’t good terminology to use in a global encyclopaedia. <a href="/wiki/User:MapReader" title="User:MapReader">MapReader</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MapReader" title="User talk:MapReader">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-MapReader-20231009060500-NinjaRobotPirate-20231009033200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:05, 9 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MapReader-20231009060500-NinjaRobotPirate-20231009033200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MapReader-20231009060500-NinjaRobotPirate-20231009033200"></span> <dl><dd><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:KyleJoan&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:KyleJoan (page does not exist)"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GoneIn60-20231009174500-MapReader-20231009060500"></span>KyleJoan</a>, can you link directly to the article section you're referring to in those examples? I'm not seeing it.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>Generally, RT can only be used for negative/unfavorable (read "rotten") or positive (read "fresh"). It does not provide ample support for "mixed", and many in the film project have doubted if 59% is truly a negative score. I'm not sure we've ever all agreed on that point, which is why there isn't anything in the MOS, at least not in absolute terms. --<a href="/wiki/User:GoneIn60" title="User:GoneIn60">GoneIn60</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GoneIn60" title="User talk:GoneIn60">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-GoneIn60-20231009174500-MapReader-20231009060500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:45, 9 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GoneIn60-20231009174500-MapReader-20231009060500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GoneIn60-20231009174500-MapReader-20231009060500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-KyleJoan-20231009180600-GoneIn60-20231009174500"></span>Third paragraph, second sentence on <a href="/wiki/Ben_Affleck#2020–present:_Supporting_roles_and_Air" title="Ben Affleck">Ben Affleck#2020–present: Supporting roles and Air</a> and first paragraph, fourth sentence on <a href="/wiki/Emma_Stone#2009–2011:_Breakthrough" title="Emma Stone">Emma Stone#2009–2011: Breakthrough</a>. Is that generalization ("Fresh" = positive, "Rotten" = negative) not an interpretation? And what about "Certified Fresh"? Does it equal "critical acclaim"? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:KyleJoan&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:KyleJoan (page does not exist)"><span style="font-family:Consolas; color:#CD8C95"><b>K</b>yle<b>J</b>oan</span></a><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:KyleJoan" title="User talk:KyleJoan"><span style="font-family:Consolas; color:#8B6969">talk</span></a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-KyleJoan-20231009180600-GoneIn60-20231009174500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:06, 9 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-KyleJoan-20231009180600-GoneIn60-20231009174500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-KyleJoan-20231009180600-GoneIn60-20231009174500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nardog-20231009184100-KyleJoan-20231009180600"></span>MOS:FILM doesn't cover articles about actors. I agree those are inappropriate uses of aggregators as sources though. <a href="/wiki/User:Nardog" title="User:Nardog">Nardog</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nardog" title="User talk:Nardog">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Nardog-20231009184100-KyleJoan-20231009180600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:41, 9 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nardog-20231009184100-KyleJoan-20231009180600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nardog-20231009184100-KyleJoan-20231009180600"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MapReader-20231009192700-KyleJoan-20231009180600"></span>It’s easy to do a search on the term “certified fresh” and you will see there are tons of them, mostly in film articles. It’s a ridiculous term to put in an encyclopaedia about films. <a href="/wiki/User:MapReader" title="User:MapReader">MapReader</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MapReader" title="User talk:MapReader">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-MapReader-20231009192700-KyleJoan-20231009180600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:27, 9 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MapReader-20231009192700-KyleJoan-20231009180600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MapReader-20231009192700-KyleJoan-20231009180600"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GoneIn60-20231009200700-KyleJoan-20231009180600"></span>When RT and MC disagree, we really shouldn't be cherry-picking one over the other, which was done in that Ben Affleck example. At Metacritic, "mixed or average" was reported for that film (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.metacritic.com/movie/deep-water-2022/">link</a>). It would be best to ditch the aggregators in that scenario and rely on other highly-reputable sources instead, with the best being those that publish in printed form (books, magazines, journals, etc). --<a href="/wiki/User:GoneIn60" title="User:GoneIn60">GoneIn60</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GoneIn60" title="User talk:GoneIn60">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-GoneIn60-20231009200700-KyleJoan-20231009180600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:07, 9 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GoneIn60-20231009200700-KyleJoan-20231009180600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GoneIn60-20231009200700-KyleJoan-20231009180600"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="outdent-template" style="position:relative;left:1px;"><span style="display:block;width:8em;height:0.5em;border-bottom:1px solid #a2a9b1;border-right:1px solid #a2a9b1;"></span><span style="display:block;width:8em;height:0.5em;border-left:1px solid #a2a9b1;"></span></div><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Erik-20231009233100-Rotten_Tomatoes_and_Metacritic_to_support_"positive",_"mixed",_"negative""></span> We need to start from the top. When we write an encyclopedic article about a film and how critics received it, we need to approach this correctly. Rotten Tomatoes is first and foremost a commercial service to tell movie fans if a movie is worth watching or not. This does not directly translate into encyclopedic value, especially as reflected by the fact that a movie is only "fresh" (positive) or "rotten" (negative). In this, RT provides zero middle ground. (No bruised tomato, no moldy tomato.) Not to mention that its percentage is just based on the positive-to-negative ratio. </p><p>In essence, for encyclopedic value, the main percentage is unreliable for reporting the critical reception. The secondary data points, the rating average (x out of 10) and the critics' consensus (however imperfect), have credible encyclopedic value. Metacritic is a similar commercial service, but its useful data points are upfront -- the metascore (which is similar to RT's rating average) and the five-level prose-label categorization. Its review breakdown (positive/mixed/negative) is also useful to report. It's not cherry-picking if Metacritic's primary determinations are reliable (plus clearly labeled) where Rotten Tomatoes's primary determinations are not. When comparing the two, Metacritic should be selected over Rotten Tomatoes for a prose-label of a film's overall critical reception. Beyond these, coverage about a film's critical reception should take precedent (though subject to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:POISON" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:POISON">WP:POISON</a> considerations). <a href="/wiki/User:Erik" title="User:Erik">Erik</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Erik" title="User talk:Erik">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Erik" title="Special:Contributions/Erik">contrib</a>) <sup>(<a href="/wiki/Template:Reply_to" title="Template:Reply to">ping me</a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Erik-20231009233100-Rotten_Tomatoes_and_Metacritic_to_support_"positive",_"mixed",_"negative"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:31, 9 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Erik-20231009233100-Rotten_Tomatoes_and_Metacritic_to_support_"positive",_"mixed",_"negative""><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Erik-20231009233100-Rotten_Tomatoes_and_Metacritic_to_support_"positive",_"mixed",_"negative""></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SMcCandlish-20231009233500-Erik-20231009233100"></span>I tend to be in agreement with all of that, Erik. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish"><b>SMcCandlish</b></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 </span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-SMcCandlish-20231009233500-Erik-20231009233100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:35, 9 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SMcCandlish-20231009233500-Erik-20231009233100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SMcCandlish-20231009233500-Erik-20231009233100"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-InfiniteNexus-20231010002600-Erik-20231009233100"></span>We should not be giving Metacritic undue weight to source "positive", "negative", or "mixed". As noted in the previous discussion about <a href="/wiki/MOS:ACCLAIMED" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:ACCLAIMED">MOS:ACCLAIMED</a>, Metacritic labels anything with a 81+ score as "universal acclaim" and anything with a score below 19 as "overwhelming dislike". If we allow editors to use Metacritic alone as a source for "positive" or "negative", that will encourage editors to start using Metacritic alone as a source for "acclaim" and "panned". <a href="/wiki/User:InfiniteNexus" title="User:InfiniteNexus">InfiniteNexus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:InfiniteNexus" title="User talk:InfiniteNexus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-InfiniteNexus-20231010002600-Erik-20231009233100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:26, 10 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-InfiniteNexus-20231010002600-Erik-20231009233100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-InfiniteNexus-20231010002600-Erik-20231009233100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SMcCandlish-20231010014700-InfiniteNexus-20231010002600"></span>So, have a more explicit rule against wording like "acclaimed" or "panned"? That seems more practical than trying to get editors to stop citing Metacritic or RT. And RT's "fresh" or "rotten" false dichotomy is much worse that Metacritic's "overwhelming dislike" to "universal acclaim" range, even if their use of superlative terms is misleading. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish"><b>SMcCandlish</b></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 </span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-SMcCandlish-20231010014700-InfiniteNexus-20231010002600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:47, 10 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SMcCandlish-20231010014700-InfiniteNexus-20231010002600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SMcCandlish-20231010014700-InfiniteNexus-20231010002600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-KyleJoan-20231010021900-SMcCandlish-20231010014700"></span>Loaded prose-labels are easier to deem inappropriate, as <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch">Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch</a>'s standard for their inclusion is high. Why shouldn't there be a guideline that says RT's statuses shouldn't be translated into these prose-labels and MC's labels must be due for inclusion? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:KyleJoan&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:KyleJoan (page does not exist)"><span style="font-family:Consolas; color:#CD8C95"><b>K</b>yle<b>J</b>oan</span></a><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:KyleJoan" title="User talk:KyleJoan"><span style="font-family:Consolas; color:#8B6969">talk</span></a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-KyleJoan-20231010021900-SMcCandlish-20231010014700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:19, 10 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-KyleJoan-20231010021900-SMcCandlish-20231010014700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-KyleJoan-20231010021900-SMcCandlish-20231010014700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-InfiniteNexus-20231010023800-KyleJoan-20231010021900"></span>Neither Metacritic nor Rotten Tomatoes should be used for reception summary labels. You can argue that one is more accurate/useful than the other, but in the end, they are both numbers computed using a formula. Using that number to determine what has been positively or negatively received is akin to deciding that an article subject is considered notable as long as they have a certain number of Google News results. We should stick to how publications — written by people (so probably not CNET) — assess the critical reception. <a href="/wiki/User:InfiniteNexus" title="User:InfiniteNexus">InfiniteNexus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:InfiniteNexus" title="User talk:InfiniteNexus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-InfiniteNexus-20231010023800-KyleJoan-20231010021900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:38, 10 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-InfiniteNexus-20231010023800-KyleJoan-20231010021900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-InfiniteNexus-20231010023800-KyleJoan-20231010021900"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nardog-20231010051900-KyleJoan-20231010021900"></span>Isn't that already covered by the first paragraph of "<a href="/wiki/MOS:FILM#Critical_reception" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:FILM">Critical reception</a>"? Perhaps we could explicitly exclude aggregators' automatic labels based on numbers, in addition to original syntheses of individual reviews. Is that the sort of thing you're proposing? <a href="/wiki/User:Nardog" title="User:Nardog">Nardog</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nardog" title="User talk:Nardog">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Nardog-20231010051900-KyleJoan-20231010021900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:19, 10 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nardog-20231010051900-KyleJoan-20231010021900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nardog-20231010051900-KyleJoan-20231010021900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-KyleJoan-20231010101600-Nardog-20231010051900"></span>That's <i>sort of</i> what I'm proposing, and I say that because my concern has more to do with citing the automatic labels to write something else entirely that no other source denotes (or in RT's case, that the source itself does not denote) than the labels themselves. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:KyleJoan&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:KyleJoan (page does not exist)"><span style="font-family:Consolas; color:#CD8C95"><b>K</b>yle<b>J</b>oan</span></a><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:KyleJoan" title="User talk:KyleJoan"><span style="font-family:Consolas; color:#8B6969">talk</span></a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-KyleJoan-20231010101600-Nardog-20231010051900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:16, 10 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-KyleJoan-20231010101600-Nardog-20231010051900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-KyleJoan-20231010101600-Nardog-20231010051900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GoneIn60-20231010153700-KyleJoan-20231010101600"></span>Well that boils down to avoiding RT for a "mixed" designation, which is technically the only label that it doesn't inherently support. And generally, using any label that isn't supported by a source is already covered in the opening sentence of that section. --<a href="/wiki/User:GoneIn60" title="User:GoneIn60">GoneIn60</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GoneIn60" title="User talk:GoneIn60">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-GoneIn60-20231010153700-KyleJoan-20231010101600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:37, 10 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GoneIn60-20231010153700-KyleJoan-20231010101600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GoneIn60-20231010153700-KyleJoan-20231010101600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-KyleJoan-20231011014000-GoneIn60-20231010153700"></span>I don't believe that goes far enough because it doesn't address the inappropriateness of converting "Certified Fresh" into positive reviews, "Fresh" also into positive reviews, "Rotten" into negative reviews. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:KyleJoan&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:KyleJoan (page does not exist)"><span style="font-family:Consolas; color:#CD8C95"><b>K</b>yle<b>J</b>oan</span></a><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:KyleJoan" title="User talk:KyleJoan"><span style="font-family:Consolas; color:#8B6969">talk</span></a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-KyleJoan-20231011014000-GoneIn60-20231010153700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:40, 11 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-KyleJoan-20231011014000-GoneIn60-20231010153700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-KyleJoan-20231011014000-GoneIn60-20231010153700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GoneIn60-20231011045100-KyleJoan-20231011014000"></span>The <i>conversion</i> is already done by Rotten Tomatoes <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.rottentomatoes.com/about#whatisthetomatometer">on their own site</a>, where the Tomatometer is defined as displaying "<i>the percentage of professional critic reviews <b>that are positive</b> for a given film or television show</i>". Reputable reliable sources have also explained the Tomatometer in published articles, such as <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.latimes.com/business/hollywood/la-fi-ct-rotten-tomatoes-20170721-htmlstory.html">this one</a> from the <i>LA Times</i>, which states: <dl><dd><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1237805129">.mw-parser-output .talkquote{color:var(--color-base,#202122);background-color:#eaf8f4;border-left:3px solid #008560;padding:0 .8em;margin:0}.mw-parser-output .talkquote-by,.mw-parser-output .talkquote-source{margin-left:1.6em}.mw-parser-output .skin-vector-2022 .talkquote>:last-child{padding-bottom:0}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .talkquote{background-color:#0d261f}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .talkquote{background-color:#0d261f}}</style><blockquote class="talkquote"><p>Today, moviegoers rely on the Tomatometer, a number that shows what percentage of critics recommend the film. In Tomato-speak, a movie with mostly negative reviews is deemed “rotten” and tagged with a green splat. Movies that are mostly well-reviewed get a “fresh" red tomato.</p></blockquote></dd></dl></dd> <dd>While we generally prefer RT and MC to be used as complementary sources when affixing a label, who's to say Wikipedia editors are wrong to write that reception was "generally positive" after seeing an RT score of 87% and an MC score of 85? Both ratings, which are considered reliable, are communicating that overall reception was positive. We've covered a couple scenarios where that doesn't work and you need better sourcing, but there are plenty of situations where it does. --<a href="/wiki/User:GoneIn60" title="User:GoneIn60">GoneIn60</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GoneIn60" title="User talk:GoneIn60">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-GoneIn60-20231011045100-KyleJoan-20231011014000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:51, 11 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GoneIn60-20231011045100-KyleJoan-20231011014000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GoneIn60-20231011045100-KyleJoan-20231011014000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-KyleJoan-20231011053700-GoneIn60-20231011045100"></span>But that example is an improper synthesis because 85 on MC indicates "universal acclaim". We would need to water down that indication to make it compatible with "Certified Fresh" equaling "generally positive" in order to make both RT and MC usable for that claim. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:KyleJoan&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:KyleJoan (page does not exist)"><span style="font-family:Consolas; color:#CD8C95"><b>K</b>yle<b>J</b>oan</span></a><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:KyleJoan" title="User talk:KyleJoan"><span style="font-family:Consolas; color:#8B6969">talk</span></a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-KyleJoan-20231011053700-GoneIn60-20231011045100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:37, 11 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-KyleJoan-20231011053700-GoneIn60-20231011045100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-KyleJoan-20231011053700-GoneIn60-20231011045100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Doniago-20231011061500-KyleJoan-20231011053700"></span>Are you asserting that "universal acclaim" doesn't fall into the realm of "generally positive"? In any event, as NRP notes below, it's often a bit facetious to use the term "universal acclaim", and likely more accurate to say "generally positive". <a href="/wiki/User:Doniago" title="User:Doniago">DonIago</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Doniago" title="User talk:Doniago">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Doniago-20231011061500-KyleJoan-20231011053700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:15, 11 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Doniago-20231011061500-KyleJoan-20231011053700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Doniago-20231011061500-KyleJoan-20231011053700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-KyleJoan-20231011080600-Doniago-20231011061500"></span>Whether it's ever appropriate to write "universal acclaim", it suggests a higher or larger degree of phrase than the more-common "generally positive". If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that citing any combination of "Fresh" or "Certified Fresh" and "generally favorable" or "universal acclaim" allows us to neutrally write "generally positive". While I disagree, I understand. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:KyleJoan&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:KyleJoan (page does not exist)"><span style="font-family:Consolas; color:#CD8C95"><b>K</b>yle<b>J</b>oan</span></a><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:KyleJoan" title="User talk:KyleJoan"><span style="font-family:Consolas; color:#8B6969">talk</span></a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-KyleJoan-20231011080600-Doniago-20231011061500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:06, 11 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-KyleJoan-20231011080600-Doniago-20231011061500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-KyleJoan-20231011080600-Doniago-20231011061500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MapReader-20231011121000-KyleJoan-20231011080600"></span>‘Universal acclaim’ certainly shouldn’t be used within an article, since as a statement it means that every single review has been positive; even were this to be the case, it would be impossible to prove and hence there isn’t going to be a citation. However brilliant a film, there will be someone somewhere who has written a poor review, if only because coming up with a unique angle on something is one way for a critic to get published and win attention. <a href="/wiki/User:MapReader" title="User:MapReader">MapReader</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MapReader" title="User talk:MapReader">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-MapReader-20231011121000-KyleJoan-20231011080600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:10, 11 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MapReader-20231011121000-KyleJoan-20231011080600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MapReader-20231011121000-KyleJoan-20231011080600"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GoneIn60-20231011151600-KyleJoan-20231011053700"></span>It's not improper synthesis. Any rating that is 61 or higher on Metacritic is coded in green. According to an explanation <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://metacritichelp.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/15456550496023-How-do-I-interpret-a-Metascore-">published on the site</a>, "green scores" represent "favorable reviews". While green is divided into two categories of "generally favorable" and "universal acclaim", we can choose to ignore any jargon or peacock labels. Both mean positive or favorable to some degree, and therefore both RT and MC agree in that scenario. --<a href="/wiki/User:GoneIn60" title="User:GoneIn60">GoneIn60</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GoneIn60" title="User talk:GoneIn60">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-GoneIn60-20231011151600-KyleJoan-20231011053700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:16, 11 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GoneIn60-20231011151600-KyleJoan-20231011053700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GoneIn60-20231011151600-KyleJoan-20231011053700"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GoneIn60-20231010083300-Erik-20231009233100"></span>"<style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1248585704">@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{font-family:Georgia,"DejaVu Serif",serif;color:#008560;quotes:none}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-italic{font-family:inherit;font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-marks{quotes:"\"""\""}</style><q class="inline-quote-talk">It's not cherry-picking if Metacritic's primary determinations are reliable...[and] Rotten Tomatoes' primary determinations are not.</q>"</dd> <dd>It's not like Metacritic is the holy grail when it comes to accuracy. You have to remember that a lot of critic reviews don't even assign a letter grade or star rating to begin with. So Metacritic, just like Rotten Tomatoes, has to rely on some level of subjectivity when assigning a value in these situations. And even when a review does contain a grade or rating, the conversion to binary (RT) or to a numerical value (MC) isn't always perfect. MC's method actually introduces more nuance if you think about it. Converting an opinion into a numerical value (ranging from 0-100) involves a <i>much</i> higher level of precision than RT. The rest of its formula heavily depends on the accuracy of that initial conversion, whereas RT's simple approach only has to deem it more positive than negative or vice-versa, an arguably easier task. MC then processes this conversion a step further by using a weighted average and normalizing scores (i.e. <a href="/wiki/Norm-referenced_test" title="Norm-referenced test">grading on a curve</a>), both of which add additional subjectivity into the mix. One final aspect worth mentioning is the sample of critics. Despite MC's reliance on only top critics, its sample size is significantly smaller for most films.</dd> <dd>There are pros and cons to either approach, and I'm not sure you can say with any certainty that one has a more reliable "primary determination" than the other. Both methods spit out a numerical final result, which in turn gets converted back into prose by eager Wikipedia editors. Accuracy and objectivity are lost at each conversion and data-crunching step along the way. What we end up with on Wikipedia is questionable at best, especially in the "mixed" realm.</dd> <dd>The solution? We've never really agreed on one, but I don't think picking one metric over another or deeming which aggregator reigns supreme gets us any closer. When it leads to a dispute, I encourage editors to tie claims to a highly-reputable source not named Rotten Tomatoes or Metacritic. --<a href="/wiki/User:GoneIn60" title="User:GoneIn60">GoneIn60</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GoneIn60" title="User talk:GoneIn60">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-GoneIn60-20231010083300-Erik-20231009233100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:33, 10 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GoneIn60-20231010083300-Erik-20231009233100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GoneIn60-20231010083300-Erik-20231009233100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-NinjaRobotPirate-20231011030100-GoneIn60-20231010083300"></span>Metacritic is very useful, but it's a black box. Nobody understands how it works or how they assign scores – some of which they invent themselves out of thin air. There's also the whole "universal acclaim" thing, which is sometimes downright false. There are occasionally films that have "universal" acclaim and a negative review. Even more so, Rotten Tomatoes is the industry standard. It would be undue weight to put so much emphasis on Metacritic and ignore Rotten Tomatoes. Academic sources would be the best, of course. I think we should be emphasizing their use more and try to discourage the use of junk sources. In too many articles, we cite articles to sources that are one step away from being <a href="/wiki/Content_mill" class="mw-redirect" title="Content mill">content mills</a> simply because some super-fan wants a source that says the film got "critical acclaim". <a href="/wiki/User:NinjaRobotPirate" title="User:NinjaRobotPirate">NinjaRobotPirate</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NinjaRobotPirate" title="User talk:NinjaRobotPirate">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-NinjaRobotPirate-20231011030100-GoneIn60-20231010083300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:01, 11 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-NinjaRobotPirate-20231011030100-GoneIn60-20231010083300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-NinjaRobotPirate-20231011030100-GoneIn60-20231010083300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Betty_Logan-20231011134300-NinjaRobotPirate-20231011030100"></span>It would be helpful I think if we just dropped the aggregator <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:JARGON" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:JARGON">WP:JARGON</a> completely. Describing a film as "rotten" is misleading if 59% of the reviews are positive, meaning more critics gave the film a positive review than a negative one. It is similarly unhelpful to describe a film as having "universal acclaim" if it score 81%, simply because it means that 1 in 5 critics didn't like it (hardly universal!). The way the aggregators use language to describe these films is not consistent with dictionary usage. As Erik mentions above, the data points have much more value. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Betty_Logan&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Betty Logan (page does not exist)">Betty Logan</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Betty_Logan" title="User talk:Betty Logan">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Betty_Logan-20231011134300-NinjaRobotPirate-20231011030100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:43, 11 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Betty_Logan-20231011134300-NinjaRobotPirate-20231011030100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Betty_Logan-20231011134300-NinjaRobotPirate-20231011030100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GoneIn60-20231011153100-Betty_Logan-20231011134300"></span>Consider you received a D or F on a test in school. These percentages can still technically be greater than 50%, but that doesn't translate to a positive grade. It's the same concept here. Yes, more than half the reviews are positive at 59%, but it doesn't cross a threshold to be considered positive reception. Having said that, scores that fall in the middling range of 40-60% (the realm defined as "mixed or average" on Metacritic) are probably best left without a label of overall reception on Wikipedia, unless it can be tied to other reputable sources. If RT says 55% and MC says 45, look elsewhere for support of a "mixed" claim; RT's percentage doesn't support such a label, and cherry-picking with MC isn't the best solution. --<a href="/wiki/User:GoneIn60" title="User:GoneIn60">GoneIn60</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GoneIn60" title="User talk:GoneIn60">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-GoneIn60-20231011153100-Betty_Logan-20231011134300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:31, 11 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GoneIn60-20231011153100-Betty_Logan-20231011134300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GoneIn60-20231011153100-Betty_Logan-20231011134300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Betty_Logan-20231011161800-GoneIn60-20231011153100"></span>I'm not making a case that 59% translates to a positive reception, but rather pointing out the statistical fact that if there are more positive then negative reviews then to label a film as "rotten" is misleading i.e. the "rotten" grading is not synonymous with how a typical reader would interpret the term. This is why I think it is better to look beyond Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic for sourced commentary describing the critical reception of a film. They tend to use plain English rather than employing these jargonistic categorizations that the aggregators use. Words that are used in a way that do not equate to their general English language definitions are unhelpful at best, and misleading at worst. And can I just say that if you scored 50% and got an "F" then you had some very tough markers at school! <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Betty_Logan&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Betty Logan (page does not exist)">Betty Logan</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Betty_Logan" title="User talk:Betty Logan">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Betty_Logan-20231011161800-GoneIn60-20231011153100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:18, 11 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Betty_Logan-20231011161800-GoneIn60-20231011153100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Betty_Logan-20231011161800-GoneIn60-20231011153100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GoneIn60-20231011173600-Betty_Logan-20231011161800"></span><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">This is why I think it is better to look beyond Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic for sourced commentary describing the critical reception of a film.</q></dd> <dd>I think you and I are beating the same drum for different reasons, and that's OK! When scores are in the middling ranges of 40-60%, we agree on the same premise, though not from a statistical standpoint or reasoning, but because each aggregator treats this range differently with different labels (mixed vs unfavorable/negative). When they disagree, neither aggregator provides the adequate support needed for a "mixed" or "negative" label on Wikipedia; if we choose "negative", MC disagrees, and if we choose "mixed", RT disagrees. We both reach the same conclusion following different paths. I'm fine with that!</dd> <dd><small>And yes, perhaps the "F" range is a little different here in the States (or at least when I was in school many moons ago)!</small> --<a href="/wiki/User:GoneIn60" title="User:GoneIn60">GoneIn60</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GoneIn60" title="User talk:GoneIn60">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-GoneIn60-20231011173600-Betty_Logan-20231011161800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:36, 11 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GoneIn60-20231011173600-Betty_Logan-20231011161800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GoneIn60-20231011173600-Betty_Logan-20231011161800"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SMcCandlish-20231011174100-Betty_Logan-20231011134300"></span>"It would be helpful I think if we just dropped the aggregator <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:JARGON" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:JARGON">WP:JARGON</a> completely." Yes. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish"><b>SMcCandlish</b></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 </span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-SMcCandlish-20231011174100-Betty_Logan-20231011134300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:41, 11 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SMcCandlish-20231011174100-Betty_Logan-20231011134300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SMcCandlish-20231011174100-Betty_Logan-20231011134300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Erik-20231011211400-SMcCandlish-20231011174100"></span>I'm completely okay with avoiding using the "universal acclaim" label when it comes to Metacritic. When any reliable source uses that praise, we can reasonably assume they don't mean that it's 100% that way everywhere every single place. We can paraphrase based on consensus, either local or in general. It could be something like "widely praised" or "highly regarded". The problem is that we have no language from RT to paraphrase other than positive or negative. We don't have any degrees of either, or anything in between (mixed, lukewarm, whatever).</dd> <dd>To respond to <a href="/wiki/User:GoneIn60" title="User:GoneIn60">GoneIn60</a>, I agree that MC is not the holy grail, and I know there isn't one. (Is it weird that I sometimes daydream that a reliably-sourced generative AI will ingest all the reviews and give an overview for us? Maybe next year...) MC has a smaller sample size, I agree, but it also helps that we would treat all of these reviews as reliable sources. Not all of RT's reviews would be reliable sources on their own. I also acknowledge that the MC weighting is a black-box approach, and I have seen some films have different overall scores than how the breakdown looks (like the overall score is "mixed or average", yet there are more positive reviews than mixed or negative ones). (However, one internal benefit of MC and its breakdown is that it has helped me balance the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PROPORTION" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PROPORTION">WP:PROPORTION</a> of individual reviews.) I don't see a problem of undue weight in using MC. I think of news articles covering science-based topics, and they'll do it in a very light fashion, hence why something like <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:MEDRS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:MEDRS">WP:MEDRS</a> exists. We can similarly recognize more (relatively) statistically sound measures.</dd> <dd>I think we can recognize here that some aspects of the aggregators are simplistic and that we can work with the best aspects that serve an encyclopedia's long-term coverage of how a film was received. The sentence, "The film got mixed reviews from critics," is more enduring language than "The film got a 65% on Rotten Tomatoes". At the end of the day, we are trying to make these not-directly-designed-for-us tools work for us because it is unthinkable (per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SYNTH" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SYNTH">WP:SYNTH</a> and amount of grunt work) for us to figure out from individual reviews what the overall trends are. <a href="/wiki/User:Erik" title="User:Erik">Erik</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Erik" title="User talk:Erik">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Erik" title="Special:Contributions/Erik">contrib</a>) <sup>(<a href="/wiki/Template:Reply_to" title="Template:Reply to">ping me</a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Erik-20231011211400-SMcCandlish-20231011174100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:14, 11 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Erik-20231011211400-SMcCandlish-20231011174100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Erik-20231011211400-SMcCandlish-20231011174100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Betty_Logan-20231012161900-Erik-20231011211400"></span>The "universal acclaimed" categorization on Metacritic is precisely that: a categorization. It is the direct result of the Metascore reaching a certain threshold, not the result of careful consideration of reviews. There is also the matter of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WEIGHT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:WEIGHT">WP:WEIGHT</a> to consider: we should use the most frequently utilized descriptor when describing the reception. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Betty_Logan&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Betty Logan (page does not exist)">Betty Logan</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Betty_Logan" title="User talk:Betty Logan">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Betty_Logan-20231012161900-Erik-20231011211400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:19, 12 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Betty_Logan-20231012161900-Erik-20231011211400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Betty_Logan-20231012161900-Erik-20231011211400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MapReader-20231012173800-Betty_Logan-20231012161900"></span>WP is directed at the wider community of English speakers around the world, not the narrow world of film experts who happen to know that ‘universal acclaim’ is a categorisation and doesn’t actually mean universal acclaim. We shouldn’t be using misleading terminology like that. <a href="/wiki/User:MapReader" title="User:MapReader">MapReader</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MapReader" title="User talk:MapReader">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-MapReader-20231012173800-Betty_Logan-20231012161900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:38, 12 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MapReader-20231012173800-Betty_Logan-20231012161900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MapReader-20231012173800-Betty_Logan-20231012161900"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Gwankoo-20231024190500-GoneIn60-20231010083300"></span>Very informative and enlightening. Thanking you and your cohorts for the clarity and sober analysis. <a href="/wiki/User:Gwankoo" title="User:Gwankoo">Gwankoo</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gwankoo" title="User talk:Gwankoo">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Gwankoo-20231024190500-GoneIn60-20231010083300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:05, 24 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Gwankoo-20231024190500-GoneIn60-20231010083300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Gwankoo-20231024190500-GoneIn60-20231010083300"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-InfiniteNexus-20231011215300-Rotten_Tomatoes_and_Metacritic_to_support_"positive",_"mixed",_"negative""></span><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1256386598">.mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#F0F2F5;color:inherit}.mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#CCFFCC;color:inherit}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#14181F;color:inherit}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#003500;color:inherit}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#14181F;color:inherit}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#003500;color:inherit}}</style> <div style="margin-left:0"> <table class="mw-collapsible mw-archivedtalk mw-collapsed" style="color:inherit; background: transparent; text-align: left; border: 1px solid Silver; margin: 0.2em auto auto; width:100%; clear: both; padding: 1px;"> <tbody><tr> <th class="cot-header-other" style="; font-size:87%; padding:0.2em 0.3em; text-align:center;"><div style="font-size:115%;margin:0 4em">Off-topic</div> </th></tr> <tr> <td style="color:inherit; border: solid 1px Silver; padding: 0.6em; background: var(--background-color-base, #fff);"> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping">@<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Nyxaros&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Nyxaros (page does not exist)">Nyxaros</a>:</span> While your addition of references is appreciated, <a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/1179523924" title="Special:Diff/1179523924">no, the Metascore alone is not sufficient to support "critical acclaim"</a>. Please see the discussion here, as well as <a href="#Critical_acclaim">the one above</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:InfiniteNexus" title="User:InfiniteNexus">InfiniteNexus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:InfiniteNexus" title="User talk:InfiniteNexus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-InfiniteNexus-20231011215300-Rotten_Tomatoes_and_Metacritic_to_support_"positive",_"mixed",_"negative"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:53, 11 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-InfiniteNexus-20231011215300-Rotten_Tomatoes_and_Metacritic_to_support_"positive",_"mixed",_"negative""><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-InfiniteNexus-20231011215300-Rotten_Tomatoes_and_Metacritic_to_support_"positive",_"mixed",_"negative""></span> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nyxaros-20231012153700-InfiniteNexus-20231011215300"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:InfiniteNexus" title="User:InfiniteNexus">InfiniteNexus</a>:</span> I've been informed that you <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">"call[ed] my edits out"</q> <span style="font-size:85%;">(<a href="/wiki/User:MikeAllen" title="User:MikeAllen">MikeAllen</a>'s words)</span> for adding multiple reliable sources and an edit summary about Metascore. I would therefore like to remind you that even if a consensus has been reached here, it does not change the fact that Metacritic explicitly states "acclaim" in addition to other references that I added. There shouldn't be any problem and I don't think there is anything unacceptable in my addition, on the contrary I believe my edit improved the page and helped to prevent another edit-war. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nyxaros" title="User talk:Nyxaros"><small style="font color:purple">ภץאคгöร</small></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Nyxaros-20231012153700-InfiniteNexus-20231011215300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:37, 12 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nyxaros-20231012153700-InfiniteNexus-20231011215300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nyxaros-20231012153700-InfiniteNexus-20231011215300"></span> <dl><dd><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Nyxaros&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Nyxaros (page does not exist)"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GoneIn60-20231012162700-Nyxaros-20231012153700"></span>Nyxaros</a>: The consensus within WikiProject Film (see <a href="/wiki/MOS:ACCLAIMED" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:ACCLAIMED">MOS:ACCLAIMED</a>) is to avoid <a href="/wiki/MOS:PEACOCK" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:PEACOCK">loaded language</a> like "critical acclaim", except in rare situations for films that have been historically documented as such in strong, reputable sources. Online articles like the ones cited toss the term "acclaim" around very loosely without really exploring that in depth. I suggest making your case in the existing talk page discussion at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Mission:_Impossible_%E2%80%93_Dead_Reckoning_Part_One#Critical_acclaim" title="Talk:Mission: Impossible – Dead Reckoning Part One">Talk:Mission: Impossible – Dead Reckoning Part One#Critical acclaim</a>. --<a href="/wiki/User:GoneIn60" title="User:GoneIn60">GoneIn60</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GoneIn60" title="User talk:GoneIn60">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-GoneIn60-20231012162700-Nyxaros-20231012153700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:27, 12 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GoneIn60-20231012162700-Nyxaros-20231012153700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GoneIn60-20231012162700-Nyxaros-20231012153700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nyxaros-20231013075600-GoneIn60-20231012162700"></span>I disagree. What you wrote suggests that we should only quote sources saying that films like <i><a href="/wiki/Citizen_Kane" title="Citizen Kane">Citizen Kane</a></i> received "acclaim", which is clearly not true. There are recent films that are described to have received widespread praise and/or "acclaim" by multiple sources. As with everything else, not every source has to explain it in detail. They may or may not give "in depth" information about why and how a film received "acclaim" overall, that seems to me is not liking how reliable sources work and therefore questioning their reliability and validity in some ways, which is also not a valid point of view in my opinion. I still don't see why we should <i>change</i> what the sources explicitly and directly state. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nyxaros" title="User talk:Nyxaros"><small style="font color:purple">ภץאคгöร</small></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Nyxaros-20231013075600-GoneIn60-20231012162700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:56, 13 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nyxaros-20231013075600-GoneIn60-20231012162700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nyxaros-20231013075600-GoneIn60-20231012162700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Betty_Logan-20231013110300-Nyxaros-20231013075600"></span>As MOS:ACCLAIMED makes clear, describing a film as "acclaimed" is "an exceptional claim that must be attributed to multiple high-quality sources". Therefore we would expect such a claim to be sourced to at least a couple of high quality sources. If your only source for describing something as "acclaimed" is Metacritic's jargonistic grading system, this is simply not good enough. Metacritic only counts the number of positive/negative/average reviews, it is not an arbiter of critical consensus. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Betty_Logan&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Betty Logan (page does not exist)">Betty Logan</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Betty_Logan" title="User talk:Betty Logan">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Betty_Logan-20231013110300-Nyxaros-20231013075600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:03, 13 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Betty_Logan-20231013110300-Nyxaros-20231013075600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Betty_Logan-20231013110300-Nyxaros-20231013075600"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SMcCandlish-20240325142200-Betty_Logan-20231013110300"></span>Concur with Betty Logan. There's a bad confusion happening here between "acclaim" as an established media-culture fact, and "acclaim" as a buzzword used by one website in their iffy rating system. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish"><b>SMcCandlish</b></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 </span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-SMcCandlish-20240325142200-Betty_Logan-20231013110300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:22, 25 March 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SMcCandlish-20240325142200-Betty_Logan-20231013110300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SMcCandlish-20240325142200-Betty_Logan-20231013110300"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nyxaros-20231013112300-Betty_Logan-20231013110300"></span>As one can see from the diff presented above and my reply, I didn't make a change using only Metacritic. I felt obliged to respond because I was mentioned on this page as if I had done something wrong for adding sources. I don't think it is right that my contribution is mentioned in this way and I think this is a case of nitpicking ("acclaim" can be credited to Metacritic, but the discussion has led to a misunderstanding of my addition). <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nyxaros" title="User talk:Nyxaros"><small style="font color:purple">ภץאคгöร</small></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Nyxaros-20231013112300-Betty_Logan-20231013110300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:23, 13 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nyxaros-20231013112300-Betty_Logan-20231013110300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nyxaros-20231013112300-Betty_Logan-20231013110300"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> </td></tr></tbody></table></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MapReader-20240325074200-Rotten_Tomatoes_and_Metacritic_to_support_"positive",_"mixed",_"negative""></span>Just to flag that there is a discussion at MOS:TV <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Television#Over-reliance_on_review_aggregators" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Television">here</a>, which both raises the same issues as here, but in relation to television articles, and also challenges the use of "universal acclaim" within articles based on the Metacritic terminology. This may interest editors who contributed here, so pinging <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Nyxaros&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Nyxaros (page does not exist)">Nyxaros</a>:</span>, <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:KyleJoan&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:KyleJoan (page does not exist)">KyleJoan</a>:</span>, <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Betty_Logan&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Betty Logan (page does not exist)">Betty Logan</a>:</span>, <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:Erik" title="User:Erik">Erik</a>:</span>, <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a>:</span>, <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:GoneIn60" title="User:GoneIn60">GoneIn60</a>:</span>, <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:Doniago" title="User:Doniago">Doniago</a>:</span>, <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:InfiniteNexus" title="User:InfiniteNexus">InfiniteNexus</a>:</span>, <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:NinjaRobotPirate" title="User:NinjaRobotPirate">NinjaRobotPirate</a>:</span> <small class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/User:MapReader" title="User:MapReader">MapReader</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MapReader#top" title="User talk:MapReader">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/MapReader" title="Special:Contributions/MapReader">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-MapReader-20240325074200-Rotten_Tomatoes_and_Metacritic_to_support_"positive",_"mixed",_"negative"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:42, 25 March 2024 (UTC)</a></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MapReader-20240325074200-Rotten_Tomatoes_and_Metacritic_to_support_"positive",_"mixed",_"negative""><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MapReader-20240325074200-Rotten_Tomatoes_and_Metacritic_to_support_"positive",_"mixed",_"negative""></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Indagate-20240325084600-MapReader-20240325074200"></span>Pings don't work if you don't sign your comment. copying pings from above <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Nyxaros&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Nyxaros (page does not exist)">Nyxaros</a>:</span>, <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:KyleJoan&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:KyleJoan (page does not exist)">KyleJoan</a>:</span>, <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Betty_Logan&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Betty Logan (page does not exist)">Betty Logan</a>:</span>, <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:Erik" title="User:Erik">Erik</a>:</span>, <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a>:</span>, <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:GoneIn60" title="User:GoneIn60">GoneIn60</a>:</span>, <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:Doniago" title="User:Doniago">Doniago</a>:</span>, <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:InfiniteNexus" title="User:InfiniteNexus">InfiniteNexus</a>:</span>, <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:NinjaRobotPirate" title="User:NinjaRobotPirate">NinjaRobotPirate</a>:</span>. <a href="/wiki/User:Indagate" title="User:Indagate">Indagate</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Indagate" title="User talk:Indagate">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Indagate-20240325084600-MapReader-20240325074200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:46, 25 March 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Indagate-20240325084600-MapReader-20240325074200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Indagate-20240325084600-MapReader-20240325074200"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Soundtrack_track_lists_in_film_articles" data-mw-thread-id="h-Soundtrack_track_lists_in_film_articles-20240430035200"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Soundtrack_track_lists_in_film_articles-20240430035200"></span>Soundtrack track lists in film articles<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Soundtrack_track_lists_in_film_articles-20240430035200"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Soundtrack track lists in film articles"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-CNMall41-20240430035200-Soundtrack_track_lists_in_film_articles"></span>I started a <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film#Soundtracks_and_track_listings_on_film_pages">discussion</a> a month back at WikiProject Film about soundtracks and track listings. Here is what I led with but hoping we can get a consensus for clarification as it is leading to some edit warring.<br/> For film pages, I think it is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:COAT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:COAT">WP:COAT</a> to create a soundtrack section on the actual film page that includes both information boxes and track listings (just a section of prose that provides an overview and anything of note). I see this similar to why we don't put track listings on musician pages. <a href="/wiki/MOS:FILMMUSIC" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:FILMMUSIC">MOS:FILMMUSIC</a> is a little confusing for me as it says that track listings for prerecorded songs can be made but that film scores cannot. Yes, I understand the difference but still believe track listings and information boxes are COAT as they should be presented in a separate page if they are notable and do not contribute anything of benefit to the film page. I searched and found a <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Archive_78#What_do_to_about_infoboxes_for_soundtracks_in_film_articles?">few</a> <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Archive_20#Soundtrack_covers">discussions</a> about this but wondering if there is a discussion that found consensus for the "current" MOS or if anyone feels this should be re-visited. I found <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_21#Soundtrack_track_lists_in_film_articles">this discussion</a> which is one of the most recent and seems to lean exactly where I am contending. <a href="/wiki/User:CNMall41" title="User:CNMall41">CNMall41</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:CNMall41" title="User talk:CNMall41">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-CNMall41-20240430035200-Soundtrack_track_lists_in_film_articles" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:52, 30 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-CNMall41-20240430035200-Soundtrack_track_lists_in_film_articles"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-CNMall41-20240430035200-Soundtrack_track_lists_in_film_articles"></span> </p> <dl><dd><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priyotoma#Soundtrack"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-CNMall41-20240430035400-CNMall41-20240430035200"></span>Here</a> is an example. The track listing and information box do nothing to enhance the page. It also runs into another section which we wouldn't allow should it be an image that doesn't align with the context in which it is placed. And <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajkumar_(2024_film)#Soundtrack">this one</a> which bleeds into four sections. --<a href="/wiki/User:CNMall41" title="User:CNMall41">CNMall41</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:CNMall41" title="User talk:CNMall41">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-CNMall41-20240430035400-CNMall41-20240430035200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:54, 30 April 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-CNMall41-20240430035400-CNMall41-20240430035200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-CNMall41-20240430035400-CNMall41-20240430035200"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Nationality_of_film" data-mw-thread-id="h-Nationality_of_film-20240718163700"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Nationality_of_film-20240718163700"></span>Nationality of film<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Nationality_of_film-20240718163700"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Nationality of film"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240718163700-Nationality_of_film"></span>Per the MOS, "If the nationality is singularly defined by reliable sources (e.g., being called an American film), identify it in the opening sentence. If the nationality is not singular, cover the different national interests later in the lead section." While I do believe we came up with this consensus a while ago, I rarely see it applied as this information is often rarely discussed with many film productions in either academic or news or even fan related film topics. I can't imagine a film like <i><a href="/wiki/O%27_Horten" title="O' Horten">O' Horten</a></i> trivializing the user on how it is was a "Norwegian-French-German-Danish" production and listing all those countries in the lead is long, describing a definition of that (if it could be confirmed) would be even longer. </p><p>I notice a tendency among users as well to cite production countries based a country being listed as the production country from various databases and film magazines (BFI, AFI, Lumiere, etc.) over finding sources that refer to the film singularity (as per a recently discussion on <i>Mad Max: Fury Road</i>, where sources discussing the films success as an Australian production, limit their discussion as it being Australian over an Australian-American co-production as cited by AFI, BFI, Sight & Sound and others.) </p><p>So to the point, should we state we would probably want to focus on more intrinsic relationship with the production companies over casual "best of" lists and topics relevant to more cultural identity? I feel this would be more clear to users as I often see databases being the source for this information. Thoughts? <a href="/wiki/User:Andrzejbanas" title="User:Andrzejbanas">Andrzejbanas</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andrzejbanas" title="User talk:Andrzejbanas">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Andrzejbanas-20240718163700-Nationality_of_film" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:37, 18 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240718163700-Nationality_of_film"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andrzejbanas-20240718163700-Nationality_of_film"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Erik-20240718170900-Andrzejbanas-20240718163700"></span>I think databases are a fair representation of countries being involved, though to the point of false equivalence in prose representation. Most reliably-sourced coverage will be local or regional and may omit what is "obvious" or even irrelevant (compared to studio films), like we won't really see <i>Despicable Me 4</i> being called an American film even though it patently is. We have to remember that there are many, many films that are of a singular nationality. The challenge is what to do when there are more countries getting involved. Most books and articles about films won't consistently name the film's "nationality" in running text when introducing it; I think it's usually reflected in some table or sidebar (e.g., "Countries: US, France").</dd> <dd>For me, the goal of this guideline was for overcoming content disputes about multiple countries, to just to blow past trying to figure out which nationality is predominate for first-sentence mention and spread out mentions in the rest of the lead section. Even so, we still get stuck with content disputes with people who don't want to do that and want some singular cultural-ownership established in the first sentence. I feel like the relevance of that varies across time and production types (e.g., a studio film may tap into international assets and be better known as X studio's film than a film from any one country). I'd rather see x-language instead of nationality in the first sentence, personally. <a href="/wiki/User:Erik" title="User:Erik">Erik</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Erik" title="User talk:Erik">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Erik" title="Special:Contributions/Erik">contrib</a>) <sup>(<a href="/wiki/Template:Reply_to" title="Template:Reply to">ping me</a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Erik-20240718170900-Andrzejbanas-20240718163700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:09, 18 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Erik-20240718170900-Andrzejbanas-20240718163700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Erik-20240718170900-Andrzejbanas-20240718163700"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Erik-20240718172000-Andrzejbanas-20240718163700"></span>EDIT: A good example is <a href="/wiki/1917_(2019_film)" title="1917 (2019 film)">1917 (2019 film)</a> which is at its core a Universal Pictures film rather than a British film or American film or American-British film. Reviewing trade papers' coverage of <i>1917</i>, "Universal" is mentioned many times where there is no UK or US mention applied to the film itself ("British" is used for the director, and the WWI soldiers' background). Hence my point about national cultural-belonging being irrelevant. <a href="/wiki/User:Erik" title="User:Erik">Erik</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Erik" title="User talk:Erik">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Erik" title="Special:Contributions/Erik">contrib</a>) <sup>(<a href="/wiki/Template:Reply_to" title="Template:Reply to">ping me</a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Erik-20240718172000-Andrzejbanas-20240718163700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:20, 18 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Erik-20240718172000-Andrzejbanas-20240718163700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Erik-20240718172000-Andrzejbanas-20240718163700"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240718174300-Erik-20240718172000"></span>I generally agree with you, but I feel like this isn't want the MOS of saying and what we are saying is what is broadly categorized across thousands of film articles. Is this something we should probably amend in the MOS? <a href="/wiki/User:Andrzejbanas" title="User:Andrzejbanas">Andrzejbanas</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andrzejbanas" title="User talk:Andrzejbanas">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Andrzejbanas-20240718174300-Erik-20240718172000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:43, 18 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240718174300-Erik-20240718172000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andrzejbanas-20240718174300-Erik-20240718172000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MapReader-20240718191900-Andrzejbanas-20240718174300"></span>Following the sources is of course our WP-wide standard, which every project has to respect. An issue that often arises, particularly for film and TV and similar pages, is that editors try to ‘argue’ or ‘analyse’ their way to a preferred conclusion, often from the perspective of a fan rather than an expert - not just for nationality, but with genre, acclamation, and other characteristics. So an editor will want to insert (or delete), for example, that a film is an “epic” or a “fantasy”, and will bring to bear aspects of the film or its production and storyline to build an argument that the film is “epic”; this entire exercise being WP:OR and therefore irrelevant. Whether we describe a film as an “epic” depends solely and entirely on whether reliable sources describe it as an epic. It’s the same for nationality: the ownership structure of the production entities, the personalities, and the financing are not relevant considerations, since, to quote from SYNTH, any conclusion in an article must be “explicitly stated by the source”. ‘Explicitly stated’ is unambiguous, and rules out arguing from data or databases about the film.</dd> <dd>There are many examples where there has been some cross-country involvement with aspects of the filmmaking and/or financing, but nevertheless the creative control sits wholly or almost entirely within a particular country, and such products are commonly attributed to that country. Where there is a wider or more balanced involvement, films are described as co-productions. For many films this isn’t of course an issue, because their origin is unambiguous. Where there is an issue, it is almost always possible to review reputable media sources, especially from outside the country or countries concerned, to find appropriate citations to support either singular nationality or co-production. <a href="/wiki/User:MapReader" title="User:MapReader">MapReader</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MapReader" title="User talk:MapReader">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-MapReader-20240718191900-Andrzejbanas-20240718174300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:19, 18 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MapReader-20240718191900-Andrzejbanas-20240718174300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MapReader-20240718191900-Andrzejbanas-20240718174300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240718194500-MapReader-20240718191900"></span>I'm not sure what genre has to do with this, as that's not the point of this discussion. Your statement that "the creative control sits wholly or almost entirely within a particular country" is a curious statement. Your broad statement of "following the sources" doesn't really address any questions I'm bringing up either. I'm not sure how WP:SYNTH argues out database or databases about film either. I've addressed this to you and your response was <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Mad_Max:_Fury_Road&diff=prev&oldid=1235218019">"who knows what criteria they use?"</a> could be applied to anything. Anyone who the most basic reading of them could see that it applies to their production countries. It is extremely normal for these databases to be formatted to short hand terminology to apply what they are saying. If it was speculation that if it just had a "Year" and didn't indicate that it was a copyright year or release, I'd say that would be properly debatable, but I'm scratching my head to possibly figure out what Country could mean otherwise without really reaching for the moon. <a href="/wiki/User:Andrzejbanas" title="User:Andrzejbanas">Andrzejbanas</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andrzejbanas" title="User talk:Andrzejbanas">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Andrzejbanas-20240718194500-MapReader-20240718191900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:45, 18 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240718194500-MapReader-20240718191900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andrzejbanas-20240718194500-MapReader-20240718191900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MapReader-20240718211600-Andrzejbanas-20240718194500"></span>What a peculiar reply? You can’t get clearer than our site wide policy that conclusions edited into an article must be explicitly stated by the source. <a href="/wiki/User:MapReader" title="User:MapReader">MapReader</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MapReader" title="User talk:MapReader">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-MapReader-20240718211600-Andrzejbanas-20240718194500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:16, 18 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MapReader-20240718211600-Andrzejbanas-20240718194500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MapReader-20240718211600-Andrzejbanas-20240718194500"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Erik-20240718195700-MapReader-20240718191900"></span>Nationality is not the same as genre in reliably-sourced coverage. It is rarely outlined in reliable sources, compared to genre. As mentioned, it's due to a provincial scope or its irrelevance to the topic. For example, for <i>Mad Max: Fury Road</i>, it is simply not being called an Australian film in the vast majority of sources. We can't take one nationality-labeling mention and elevate it over all the other lack of nationality-labeling mentions. In contrast, many of the sources writing about the film would write "action", which satisfies due weight for identifying the film's main genre. We really need to move on from this "there must be a nationality established" mentality. <a href="/wiki/User:Erik" title="User:Erik">Erik</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Erik" title="User talk:Erik">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Erik" title="Special:Contributions/Erik">contrib</a>) <sup>(<a href="/wiki/Template:Reply_to" title="Template:Reply to">ping me</a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Erik-20240718195700-MapReader-20240718191900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:57, 18 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Erik-20240718195700-MapReader-20240718191900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Erik-20240718195700-MapReader-20240718191900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240718204200-Erik-20240718195700"></span>Yeah I would agree with Erik. I like how we are applying <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WEIGHT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:WEIGHT">WP:WEIGHT</a> to things as just listing every potential thing something has been briefly described as is difficult as genre is subjective and seemingly as I try to clean up the genre film articles, there is little consensus to what constitutes some films to be in certain genres.</dd> <dd>But back to the point, I'm not sure if this phrasing of this in the MOS is clear as MapReader says, it does make it look like that just referring to a film colloquially by country, its probably applying undue weight (<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:UNDUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:UNDUE">WP:UNDUE</a>). A casual reference to a film that <i><a href="/wiki/Mulholland_Drive_(film)" title="Mulholland Drive (film)">Mulholland Drive</a></i> appearing on a list of the 100 best American films does not disqualify it from that list, but shouldn't ignore that more technical sources that qualified as a US-French co-production. Its using material like that as a source that isn't the most scholarly that I'm trying to avoid and currently the phrasing in the MOS does not make that clear except the veteran editors. <a href="/wiki/User:Andrzejbanas" title="User:Andrzejbanas">Andrzejbanas</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andrzejbanas" title="User talk:Andrzejbanas">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Andrzejbanas-20240718204200-Erik-20240718195700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:42, 18 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240718204200-Erik-20240718195700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andrzejbanas-20240718204200-Erik-20240718195700"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MapReader-20240718211700-Erik-20240718195700"></span>There are very many such mentions, in sources across the world. <a href="/wiki/User:MapReader" title="User:MapReader">MapReader</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MapReader" title="User talk:MapReader">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-MapReader-20240718211700-Erik-20240718195700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:17, 18 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MapReader-20240718211700-Erik-20240718195700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MapReader-20240718211700-Erik-20240718195700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Notwally-20240719034900-MapReader-20240718211700"></span>I think there is a strong tendency for overuse of descriptors, e.g., nationality, genres, occupations, etc. in the leads of Wikipedia articles. It's often unweildy and bad writing, and it leads to a lot of original research. For films, I can see why nationalities can be relevant to include, but the problem is that they aren't going to be described in prose as an "American film", for example, in most cases. That's when databases are helpful if this information is going to be forced into the article regardless of its use in sources, especially when there is a dispute over countries. My feeling is that its useful to use the databases and production companies, unless there is a clear preference in reliable sources. If there are many sources using one particular country, and none using another country or combination of other countries, then I think it makes sense in those cases to override the databases. If there is not a clear nationality that is "singularly defined" by reliable sources though, then I think its better to avoid the nationality in the lead sentence. I don't think the policy that different national interests should be covered later in the lead is necessary, though. Sometimes they aren't really that important and should just be covered in the main body. – <a href="/wiki/User:Notwally" title="User:Notwally">notwally</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Notwally" title="User talk:Notwally">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Notwally-20240719034900-MapReader-20240718211700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Notwally-20240719034900-MapReader-20240718211700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Notwally-20240719034900-MapReader-20240718211700"></span></dd> <dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240719065200-MapReader-20240718211700"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:MapReader" title="User:MapReader">MapReader</a>:</span>, I'm not sure what you are trying to get at, and I'm trying to give your comments some validity, but I'm not sure what you are saying and if you can't respond to specifics, I have trouble reading this beyond a lot of <a href="/wiki/Whataboutism" title="Whataboutism">Whataboutism</a>.</dd> <dd>While I agree with <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:Notwally" title="User:Notwally">Notwally</a>:</span>. That's a complicated element. Countless productions made in Europe (example -Frnch-Italian, Itlaian-Spanish, etc.) and Asia (Hong Kong and China) are often international co-productions. While specific films like phrases like French comedies or Italian horror are causally used as cultural/groupung terms, the films are technically filed under umbrellas in various film catalogues and databases as multi-country productions. It's rare to find such specifics on how much a film was produced by what production countries (see <i><a href="/wiki/Blood_and_Black_Lace" title="Blood and Black Lace">Blood and Black Lace</a></i> for example), these types of file.s are colloquially referred to as Italian. I'm not sure if listing both would be confusing for readers, while explaining that distinction in an article without some context or sources backing it up feels like it's just muddying up conceptual waters on the nationality of films. <a href="/wiki/User:Andrzejbanas" title="User:Andrzejbanas">Andrzejbanas</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andrzejbanas" title="User talk:Andrzejbanas">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Andrzejbanas-20240719065200-MapReader-20240718211700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:52, 19 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240719065200-MapReader-20240718211700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andrzejbanas-20240719065200-MapReader-20240718211700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MapReader-20240719065800-Andrzejbanas-20240719065200"></span>The bottom line is that - if the suggestion being made is that we should depart from direct sourcing and start determining article content by analysing production companies and the like, that's a matter that would raise issues of site-wide significance, and can't be deal with inside the film project. Direct sourcing is a WP fundamental, per OR and SYNTH. <a href="/wiki/User:MapReader" title="User:MapReader">MapReader</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MapReader" title="User talk:MapReader">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-MapReader-20240719065800-Andrzejbanas-20240719065200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:58, 19 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MapReader-20240719065800-Andrzejbanas-20240719065200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MapReader-20240719065800-Andrzejbanas-20240719065200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240719073100-MapReader-20240719065800"></span>I've re-read what I've said, and I'm not sure where you are getti</dd> <dd>ng that I'm against sourcing. (?!) I'll re-iterate that we need to clarify if we are going for specific technical details (i.e: <i>Breathless</i> is a (french-italian production) or more general terms where I'm sure I'll find <i>Breathless</i> more casually described as French. I could easily dump sources here showcasing both, but I'm feeling you are either not really understanding my comments. <a href="/wiki/User:Andrzejbanas" title="User:Andrzejbanas">Andrzejbanas</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andrzejbanas" title="User talk:Andrzejbanas">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Andrzejbanas-20240719073100-MapReader-20240719065800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:31, 19 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240719073100-MapReader-20240719065800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andrzejbanas-20240719073100-MapReader-20240719065800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MapReader-20240719130100-Andrzejbanas-20240719073100"></span>Likewise. I am very aware that some film page editors may find the requirement for explicit direct sourcing tiresome, and would rather use their supposed expertise to argue their way toward saying what they prefer about a particular film. But that’s simply not the way that WP works. If anyone wants to argue that a film is a co-production, the only way you can do so in Wikipedia is to establish that the balance of reliable sources describes the film in the same way. <a href="/wiki/User:MapReader" title="User:MapReader">MapReader</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MapReader" title="User talk:MapReader">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-MapReader-20240719130100-Andrzejbanas-20240719073100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:01, 19 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MapReader-20240719130100-Andrzejbanas-20240719073100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MapReader-20240719130100-Andrzejbanas-20240719073100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240719150200-MapReader-20240719130100"></span>I'm not sure what you mean by "some film page editors" and "the only way you can do so in Wikipedia is to establish the balance of reliable sources". I'm going to suggest reading <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:AVOIDUNCIVIL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:AVOIDUNCIVIL">WP:AVOIDUNCIVIL</a>, and focus discussing the content not on editors. I'm going to only state the issue once that in casual terms, critics, journalists and other sources describe films generically as one countries cinema, while in more technical terms, they are referred to more. It is foolish to pretend both are equally going to approaching a topic in generic terms. So what is the solution? Editors on the <i>Fury Road</i> article seem to focus on databases for more technical info. While it is possible to find sources calling that film outside databases referring to it a co-production (Here is <i>Sydney Morning Herald</i> describing <i>Fury Road</i> as a <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/movies/short-cuts-australian-films-feature-on-international-aactas-shortlist-20160106-gm0acd.html">Austrailian-US production</a>, here is The New York Times <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20150604020401/http://www.nytimes.com/movies/movie/439675/Mad-Max-Fury-Road/overview">doing it as well</a>), so it can be found to find these, but what do we do when terms are brought up more coloquially? Unless there is specific information on why its strictly Australian, I don't think we should use these as the best quality source when they are discussing items more specific to other material (ie: film gross, etc.) <a href="/wiki/User:Andrzejbanas" title="User:Andrzejbanas">Andrzejbanas</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andrzejbanas" title="User talk:Andrzejbanas">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Andrzejbanas-20240719150200-MapReader-20240719130100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:02, 19 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240719150200-MapReader-20240719130100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andrzejbanas-20240719150200-MapReader-20240719130100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MapReader-20240719181800-Andrzejbanas-20240719150200"></span>Once again, it doesn’t matter why sources describe as they do. It matters that they are reliable, authoritative sources, and then we as WP editors simply follow them. WP editors shouldn’t be arguing or analysing their way toward article content: that’s OR. <a href="/wiki/User:MapReader" title="User:MapReader">MapReader</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MapReader" title="User talk:MapReader">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-MapReader-20240719181800-Andrzejbanas-20240719150200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:18, 19 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MapReader-20240719181800-Andrzejbanas-20240719150200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MapReader-20240719181800-Andrzejbanas-20240719150200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240719200200-MapReader-20240719181800"></span>I"m familiar with <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR">WP:OR</a>, but per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:STICKTOSOURCE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:STICKTOSOURCE">WP:STICKTOSOURCE</a>, "Take care not to go beyond what the sources express or to use them in ways inconsistent with the intention of the source". This is what I'm trying to do with applying a film being referred to coloquially to specifics. So if we have one source that says "Australian film" for <i>Fury Road</i>, and one that refers to it as a "Australian-US" production, what is the course of action? What happens when we have a few of each? This is why I'm trying to clarify what are the "content on the best respected and most authoritative reliable sources", which ultimately, will come down to our editors. So no, you are wrong MapReader, its not as simple as finding a source and running with it and that is what we have to discuss as editors as what format we take as there is not strong consistent nationality for film standards across the board. <a href="/wiki/User:Andrzejbanas" title="User:Andrzejbanas">Andrzejbanas</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andrzejbanas" title="User talk:Andrzejbanas">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Andrzejbanas-20240719200200-MapReader-20240719181800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:02, 19 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240719200200-MapReader-20240719181800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andrzejbanas-20240719200200-MapReader-20240719181800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MapReader-20240720040800-Andrzejbanas-20240719200200"></span>STICKTOSOURCE and your quoted extract is exactly my point in relation to the AFI infobox, which contains data in a table and doesn’t attempt to describe the film. The question is simply, is a source reliable, and what does it say. If there are mutliple, conflicting, sources then we have to weigh them for number and reliability, but it isn’t up to any editor to dismiss sources using words like ‘colloquial’, which reads to me like IDONTLIKEIT. The original Hollywood Reporter citation is clearly very authoritative and reliable as a media source for film, and not only uses the term specifically, but contains an explanation as to why it does so. You can’t get less colloquial than that. You’re right that, while an article only needs one citation to support a point, if there is a dispute it shouldn’t be resolved without a wider look at sources. But I am not seeing where it js widely described as an “Australian-US co-production” - using those words rather than as data from a table being used in “ways inconsistent with the intention of the source”. <a href="/wiki/User:MapReader" title="User:MapReader">MapReader</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MapReader" title="User talk:MapReader">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-MapReader-20240720040800-Andrzejbanas-20240719200200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:08, 20 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MapReader-20240720040800-Andrzejbanas-20240719200200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MapReader-20240720040800-Andrzejbanas-20240719200200"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nardog-20240720002700-Andrzejbanas-20240718163700"></span>To state the obvious, that a film is "an Australian film" and that it's "an Australian–US production" are not mutually exclusive statements. Only if a source described it as an <i>exclusively</i> Australian film would we need to weigh the reliability of the sources. <a href="/wiki/User:Nardog" title="User:Nardog">Nardog</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nardog" title="User talk:Nardog">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Nardog-20240720002700-Andrzejbanas-20240718163700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:27, 20 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nardog-20240720002700-Andrzejbanas-20240718163700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nardog-20240720002700-Andrzejbanas-20240718163700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MapReader-20240720041400-Nardog-20240720002700"></span>There is no dispute that there is some US involvement in the film but, as Hollywood Reporter explains, it is seen as an Australian film because Australians - most notably George Miller, whose creation the whole Mad Max series and genre was - had creative control over it. The question is simply how something is described by the majority of reliable sources; there is no requirement for a word like ‘exclusively”. <a href="/wiki/User:MapReader" title="User:MapReader">MapReader</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MapReader" title="User talk:MapReader">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-MapReader-20240720041400-Nardog-20240720002700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:14, 20 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MapReader-20240720041400-Nardog-20240720002700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MapReader-20240720041400-Nardog-20240720002700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Notwally-20240720191400-MapReader-20240720041400"></span>I'm not sure how "exclusively" and "singularly defined" are significantly different. – <a href="/wiki/User:Notwally" title="User:Notwally">notwally</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Notwally" title="User talk:Notwally">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Notwally-20240720191400-MapReader-20240720041400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:14, 20 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Notwally-20240720191400-MapReader-20240720041400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Notwally-20240720191400-MapReader-20240720041400"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240721005200-Notwally-20240720191400"></span>Speaking of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR">WP:OR</a>, that logic has no really follow through. For saying I've just applied rules and made them up, so have you just now. <a href="/wiki/User:Andrzejbanas" title="User:Andrzejbanas">Andrzejbanas</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andrzejbanas" title="User talk:Andrzejbanas">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Andrzejbanas-20240721005200-Notwally-20240720191400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:52, 21 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240721005200-Notwally-20240720191400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andrzejbanas-20240721005200-Notwally-20240720191400"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MapReader-20240721132600-Notwally-20240720191400"></span>The latter refers to how reliable sources describe the film. Which in the case that gave rise to this discussion, appears quite clear. <a href="/wiki/User:MapReader" title="User:MapReader">MapReader</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MapReader" title="User talk:MapReader">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-MapReader-20240721132600-Notwally-20240720191400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:26, 21 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MapReader-20240721132600-Notwally-20240720191400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MapReader-20240721132600-Notwally-20240720191400"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MapReader-20240722044000-Notwally-20240720191400"></span>‘Singularly defined’ means that the film is commonly defined as originating from one country, as is clear from the example given in brackets immediately following. ‘Exclusively’ sets the higher bar of no foreign involvement, which in modern filmmaking isn’t that common. Hiring in a firm or two from another country doesn’t automatically make a film a co-production, as co-production clearly requires shared control over the production, per our own WP articles on <a href="/wiki/Co-production_(media)" title="Co-production (media)">co-production (media)</a> “a co-production is a joint venture…” and on a <a href="/wiki/Joint_venture" title="Joint venture">joint venture</a> “generally characterized by shared ownership, shared returns and risks, and shared governance”. <a href="/wiki/User:MapReader" title="User:MapReader">MapReader</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MapReader" title="User talk:MapReader">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-MapReader-20240722044000-Notwally-20240720191400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:40, 22 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MapReader-20240722044000-Notwally-20240720191400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MapReader-20240722044000-Notwally-20240720191400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240722082500-MapReader-20240722044000"></span>We don't use Wikipedia as our definition for material per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CIRCULAR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CIRCULAR">WP:CIRCULAR</a>. MapReader, you have addressed this saying some older editors have been applying their own rules, and since then have been pulling your own rules from the air and ignoring content. I've found sources calling films in question co-productions, and you've only found content referring to a film colloquially. As you have not addressed any of my issues, I'm on the range of calling you on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DISRUPTSIGNS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DISRUPTSIGNS">WP:DISRUPTSIGNS</a>. You have been "misrepresents reliable sources, or performs original research.", "repeatedly disregards other editors' questions or requests for explanations". You haven't addressed why several sources you listed on a <i>Fury Road</i> article were not stating what you requested or were from dubious sources (IMDb). I want to work with you, but this is becoming more <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:IDIDNTHEARTHAT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:IDIDNTHEARTHAT">WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT</a> each time I read a response. <a href="/wiki/User:Andrzejbanas" title="User:Andrzejbanas">Andrzejbanas</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andrzejbanas" title="User talk:Andrzejbanas">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Andrzejbanas-20240722082500-MapReader-20240722044000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:25, 22 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240722082500-MapReader-20240722044000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andrzejbanas-20240722082500-MapReader-20240722044000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nyxaros-20240722083700-Andrzejbanas-20240722082500"></span>I see MapReader repeating the same thing over and over again in different words and I have not seen a single editor agree with his comments yet. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nyxaros" title="User talk:Nyxaros"><small><span style="color:OrangeRed; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">ภץאคгöร</span></small></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Nyxaros-20240722083700-Andrzejbanas-20240722082500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:37, 22 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nyxaros-20240722083700-Andrzejbanas-20240722082500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nyxaros-20240722083700-Andrzejbanas-20240722082500"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GoneIn60-20240723032400-Andrzejbanas-20240718163700"></span>Comment</b> – Didn't realize we had two intersecting convos happening simultaneously, so quick recap of what I left at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Mad_Max:_Fury_Road#Australian_in_lead" title="Talk:Mad Max: Fury Road">Talk:Mad Max: Fury Road#Australian in lead</a>...<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>In an old <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_9#Nationality_in_lead_sentence" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 9">2013 discussion</a>, which eventually led to the guidance we have today in <a href="/wiki/MOS:FILMCOUNTRY" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:FILMCOUNTRY">MOS:FILMCOUNTRY</a>, the original idea was to allow the nationality when it was both singular <i><b>and</b></i> straightforward. As soon as it becomes clear more than one country is involved in the production (whether that's a 50-50 split, 70-30 split, 60-35-5 split, etc.), the water gets muddy, and the suggestion back then was to <span class="nowrap">"<b><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">de-emphasize</q></b>"</span> and move beyond nationality and seek an alternative identifier, such as the "<link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">film's primary language</q>".<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>Perhaps this isn't being stressed enough in our MOS. Even the slightest hint of ambiguity should prompt discussion and/or encourage editors to err on the side of caution by relegating nationality to the article body (or abandoning it altogether). The guidance we have now seems to be limiting us to only 2 options: the opening lead sentence or subsequent paragraphs in the lead section. But really, there are other options on the table. --<a href="/wiki/User:GoneIn60" title="User:GoneIn60">GoneIn60</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GoneIn60" title="User talk:GoneIn60">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-GoneIn60-20240723032400-Andrzejbanas-20240718163700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:24, 23 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GoneIn60-20240723032400-Andrzejbanas-20240718163700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GoneIn60-20240723032400-Andrzejbanas-20240718163700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240723145000-GoneIn60-20240723032400"></span>Thanks for chiming in GoneIn60. Yeah, I don't think our previous solution is ideal and even in featured and good articles since, it has not really been applied. That I've brought up else where (i.e: <i><a href="/wiki/Contempt_(film)" title="Contempt (film)">Contempt</a></i> is a <i>french new wave</i> film) which is certainly is, but it is categorized as French and Italian in the infobox with again as we've said, muddies the conceptual waters. This may be dancing around a topic, but to diffentriate between cultural values, I wonder if labelling the "Country" term in the infobox to "Production country" would help seperate the technical and legal aspects of a nationality of a film, and the more broad cultural studies representation of films from around the world. Don't get me started again on films like <i><a href="/wiki/O%27_Horten" title="O' Horten">O' Horten</a></i> with its multiple production countries. <a href="/wiki/User:Andrzejbanas" title="User:Andrzejbanas">Andrzejbanas</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andrzejbanas" title="User talk:Andrzejbanas">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Andrzejbanas-20240723145000-GoneIn60-20240723032400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:50, 23 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240723145000-GoneIn60-20240723032400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andrzejbanas-20240723145000-GoneIn60-20240723032400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Erik-20240723174800-Andrzejbanas-20240723145000"></span>Are you wanting to change the guideline's language to be more to the point? If so, how would you rewrite it? <a href="/wiki/User:Erik" title="User:Erik">Erik</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Erik" title="User talk:Erik">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Erik" title="Special:Contributions/Erik">contrib</a>) <sup>(<a href="/wiki/Template:Reply_to" title="Template:Reply to">ping me</a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Erik-20240723174800-Andrzejbanas-20240723145000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:48, 23 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Erik-20240723174800-Andrzejbanas-20240723145000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Erik-20240723174800-Andrzejbanas-20240723145000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240723194100-Erik-20240723174800"></span>Well I'm asking around to see if others feel the same way to see or to sort of rally around ideas. I do think at the state its in, it's not really being practiced and as we've stated above, it's complicated to fit into a source, and the nationality of a film has different meanings to a general audience. I'm leaning towards some sort of re-write, but one thing I do think would help would be labelling the "Country" in the infobox to "Production country" as of now, that seems to be what the predominant strain of citation is. Do you feel it could use a re-write Erik? <a href="/wiki/User:Andrzejbanas" title="User:Andrzejbanas">Andrzejbanas</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andrzejbanas" title="User talk:Andrzejbanas">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Andrzejbanas-20240723194100-Erik-20240723174800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:41, 23 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240723194100-Erik-20240723174800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andrzejbanas-20240723194100-Erik-20240723174800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240723225300-Andrzejbanas-20240723194100"></span>If anything, and I don't think this is my final word, if we could re-word it, it should be more specific if we want to continue in the direction that most film article seem to be leaning towards which is a more dedicated look at country being related to production countries over vague or colloquial usage of country. Interpretations of "French film" are vague and are full of assumptions based on different audiences of what does constitute something to be French. Sure we could just list a bunch of sources that call a film French, but I'm not sure this comes off as clear to readers who would interpret it that way. It's probably more neutral to refer to them as "French productions" or "Italian-Spanish co-productions" to avoid gross misinterpretation.</dd> <dd>I would suggest <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:Erik" title="User:Erik">Erik</a>:</span> something like "If the nationality is singularly defined by reliable sources (e.g., being called an American film), identify it in the opening sentence." be replaced with something along the lines of "If the nationality is singularly defined by reliable sources (e.g., being called an American film production), identify it in the opening sentence." Perhaps adding context that we should be addressing films technically, and applying more cultural definitions of national cinema as as part of a themes or background section. Not really sure, but its all a bit too vague here and leads to headaches like dealing with the <i>Fury Road</i> article. <a href="/wiki/User:Andrzejbanas" title="User:Andrzejbanas">Andrzejbanas</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andrzejbanas" title="User talk:Andrzejbanas">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Andrzejbanas-20240723225300-Andrzejbanas-20240723194100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:53, 23 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240723225300-Andrzejbanas-20240723194100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andrzejbanas-20240723225300-Andrzejbanas-20240723194100"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Referenced_filming_locations_-_yay_or_nay?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Referenced_filming_locations_-_yay_or_nay?-20240722215100"><span id="Referenced_filming_locations_-_yay_or_nay.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Referenced_filming_locations_-_yay_or_nay?-20240722215100"></span>Referenced filming locations - yay or nay?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Referenced_filming_locations_-_yay_or_nay?-20240722215100"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: Referenced filming locations - yay or nay?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Picard's_Facepalm-20240722215100-Referenced_filming_locations_-_yay_or_nay?"></span>Greetings all, just looking to see if I can get some feedback & possible consensus on as to if it is appropriate to include filming (shooting) locations in the movie articles, especially if they are a concise list of iconic or notable parts of the film itself, and if they are referenced. I have seen it both ways - both included and excluded... but I have never seen an effort to exclude it by removal after it had already been a long-established part of the article. That has recently happened <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heat_%281995_film%29&diff=1236077091&oldid=1236076890%7C">here</a> under the claim of it being trivia. </p><p>My initial reaction was to revert it on that premise alone - but I went ahead and looked at applicable MOS guidelines and cannot find anything definitive. I also reviewed the archives and found 2 mentions of it previously - with the oldest one simply stating they saw benefit of them being included but that a select number of editors whack them under the premise of it being N/A trivia... essentially the same situation as I have here. There was no further discussion regarding that which I could find. If there is a more pertinent discussion, please feel free to point me to it. </p><p>Personally - external websites and fansites have a history of disappearing - as does information such as this, and would require notable effort to track down if it even did still exist - especially with how the major search engines operate these days. I believe that if sufficiently cited that it would be of notable benefit to include them in the definitive reference resource which the WP project is aiming to be. </p><p>That being said - I will ask here to see if I can get some feedback prior to taking any further action. Thanks for your time and input. <a href="/wiki/User:Picard%27s_Facepalm" title="User:Picard's Facepalm"><b>--Picard's Facepalm</b></a> <b style="color:red">•</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Picard%27s_Facepalm" title="Special:Contributions/Picard's Facepalm"> <sup>Made It So</sup></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Picard%27s_Facepalm" title="User talk:Picard's Facepalm"><i style="color:green"><sub>Engage!</sub></i></a> <b style="color:red">•</b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Picard's_Facepalm-20240722215100-Referenced_filming_locations_-_yay_or_nay?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:51, 22 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Picard's_Facepalm-20240722215100-Referenced_filming_locations_-_yay_or_nay?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Picard's_Facepalm-20240722215100-Referenced_filming_locations_-_yay_or_nay?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Favre1fan93-20240722220500-Picard's_Facepalm-20240722215100"></span>In the specific <i>Heat</i> example you provided, yes in that instance, as it was formatted, I would call that trivia. How I would approach that specific article would be as follows (pending there being reliable sources to back up the location in question - and I'd note I'm iffy on the sources that were used previously): in the "Filming" section I'd add (bolding) <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">All of the shooting was done on location, due to Mann's decision not to use a soundstage,<style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1255586131">.mw-parser-output .fakelinks{color:var(--color-progressive,#0645ad);cursor:default}.mw-parser-output .fakelinks:hover{color:var(--color-progressive--hover,#0645ad)}</style><sup class="reference nowrap ltr fakelinks">[1]</sup> <b>including in downtown Los Angeles and [insert any other locations that may be prominent within the project].</b></q> - <a href="/wiki/User:Favre1fan93" title="User:Favre1fan93">Favre1fan93</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Favre1fan93" title="User talk:Favre1fan93">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Favre1fan93-20240722220500-Picard's_Facepalm-20240722215100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:05, 22 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Favre1fan93-20240722220500-Picard's_Facepalm-20240722215100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Favre1fan93-20240722220500-Picard's_Facepalm-20240722215100"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240723145400-Picard's_Facepalm-20240722215100"></span>I'd agree with Favre1fan93. Listing everything in a table would probably be overkill. If the film truly had that many filming locations, I feel like that would be a really comprehensive part of the production (difficulty in funding, filming in different locations, financial and artistic reasons for studio shooting and location shooting, etc.) if such backing material can be found on more major productions, but its best represented as prose. As its was represented in that <i>Heat</i> article, I don't try to mention things unless it has context. This seems to be verging on going against <a href="/wiki/MOS:MISC" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:MISC">MOS:MISC</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Andrzejbanas" title="User:Andrzejbanas">Andrzejbanas</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andrzejbanas" title="User talk:Andrzejbanas">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Andrzejbanas-20240723145400-Picard's_Facepalm-20240722215100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:54, 23 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240723145400-Picard's_Facepalm-20240722215100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andrzejbanas-20240723145400-Picard's_Facepalm-20240722215100"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Betty_Logan-20240724051100-Picard's_Facepalm-20240722215100"></span>The example given is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:INDISCRIMINATE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:INDISCRIMINATE">WP:INDISCRIMINATE</a>, so I am ok with its removal. There are many examples I can think of where the location is essentially a character in the film (James Bond locations, Venice in <i>Don't Look Now</i>) or places that had an back-story as to how they came to be selected for the film. In shot, if the article is saying something <i>about</i> the location in the film then it should remain, but if it is just listing locations for the sake of listing locations then it is probably indiscriminate. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Betty_Logan&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Betty Logan (page does not exist)">Betty Logan</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Betty_Logan" title="User talk:Betty Logan">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Betty_Logan-20240724051100-Picard's_Facepalm-20240722215100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:11, 24 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Betty_Logan-20240724051100-Picard's_Facepalm-20240722215100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Betty_Logan-20240724051100-Picard's_Facepalm-20240722215100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-109.79.169.204-20240726223200-Betty_Logan-20240724051100"></span>As a general rule Filming locations are important production information and bad formatting of the example doesn't change that fact that it was <b>properly referenced</b> important factual information about the production. (Heat isn't just any movie, it a specifically <b>Los Angeles</b> crime movie.) I am disappointed that experienced editors would dismiss the inherent encyclopedic value of the underlying content as trivia merely because of the style and formatting. (The article for <a href="/wiki/Heat_(1995_film)" title="Heat (1995 film)">Heat (1995 film)</a> has received little maintenance as it far exceeded the standard of what was consider good quality in early Wikipedia, and was locked to prevent editing for the longest time.) Deleting the section entirely is not what I would call editing collaboratively to make a better encyclopedia (intentional or not it shows a lack of respect to the work of the all the editors who added and properly sourced that information.) A deleted section is unlikely to see any improvement and it should have been tagged as needing cleanup, and be rephrased into a more coherent <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PROSE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PROSE">paragraph of prose</a> (more tables is that last thing that is needed). The guidelines <a href="/wiki/MOS:FILMPRODUCTION" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:FILMPRODUCTION">MOS:FILMPRODUCTION</a> points to <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">production or filming: filming dates and places</q> so the guidelines of this project are already telling you to include filming locations, and even if they were "Trivia" (which they are not) the guideline <a href="/wiki/MOS:TRIVIA" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:TRIVIA">MOS:TRIVIA</a> itself says <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">"This guideline does not suggest removing trivia sections, or moving them to the talk page. If information is otherwise suitable, it is better that it be poorly presented than not presented at all."</q> It is wonder this encyclopedia still exists the way people delete so easily. -- <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/109.79.169.204" title="Special:Contributions/109.79.169.204">109.79.169.204</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:109.79.169.204&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:109.79.169.204 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-109.79.169.204-20240726223200-Betty_Logan-20240724051100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:32, 26 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-109.79.169.204-20240726223200-Betty_Logan-20240724051100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-109.79.169.204-20240726223200-Betty_Logan-20240724051100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MapReader-20240727043200-109.79.169.204-20240726223200"></span>Vast amounts of material are added to WP every day, against which the few editors that focus on trimming are a drop in the ocean! The notion that any piece of information that can be referenced is proper for inclusion in an article isn’t an uncommon one, but for readability and other reasons it isn’t the way we work - data does need to be notable. Some broad commentary as to where the filming was done is always appropriate, and this might reference a few specific locations if noteworthy buildings were significantly used as locations within the film. But I agree with others above that a table giving the street addresses of individual scenes is not appropriate. <a href="/wiki/User:MapReader" title="User:MapReader">MapReader</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MapReader" title="User talk:MapReader">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-MapReader-20240727043200-109.79.169.204-20240726223200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:32, 27 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MapReader-20240727043200-109.79.169.204-20240726223200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MapReader-20240727043200-109.79.169.204-20240726223200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Picard's_Facepalm-20240727060700-MapReader-20240727043200"></span>Your last two sentences are somewhat contradictory in nature. I will agree that street addresses are probably excessive if the location does not otherwise pass <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NN">WP:NN</a>, a la something like <a href="/wiki/Nakatomi_tower" class="mw-redirect" title="Nakatomi tower">Nakatomi tower</a>. Ignoring that with regards to the section I brought up, and taking into account your other sentence - the small handful of select filming locations mentioned are indeed specific, noteworthy locations and tie directly in with the most notable - if not iconic - moments of the film. With that in mind - I must agree with the AnonIP that whacking the section outright is probably not in the best interest of the article, nor is it best practice for such material on WP as whole. Destructive edits for this type of researched & referenced content should absolutely be done with far more delicacy and consideration vs. outright section blanking. Instead tagging for & cleaning it up while retaining the locations of notoriety (less street addresses, perhaps) is likely far more appropriate. I will raise that point on the article's talk page for discussion and likely re-add the section after I think about it some more and do some additional research on this type of sitaution. Otherwise - I do look forward to continued discussion & input here. Thank you, everyone. <a href="/wiki/User:Picard%27s_Facepalm" title="User:Picard's Facepalm"><b>--Picard's Facepalm</b></a> <b style="color:red">•</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Picard%27s_Facepalm" title="Special:Contributions/Picard's Facepalm"> <sup>Made It So</sup></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Picard%27s_Facepalm" title="User talk:Picard's Facepalm"><i style="color:green"><sub>Engage!</sub></i></a> <b style="color:red">•</b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Picard's_Facepalm-20240727060700-MapReader-20240727043200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:07, 27 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Picard's_Facepalm-20240727060700-MapReader-20240727043200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Picard's_Facepalm-20240727060700-MapReader-20240727043200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MapReader-20240727125900-Picard's_Facepalm-20240727060700"></span>Yes, but all it needs is a sentence along the lines of “Location filming was done at various locations around Los Angeles, including the Citigroup Center and the airport Hilton.” That’s it. The table with addresses and intricate minutiae from the plot are entirely gratuitous. <a href="/wiki/User:MapReader" title="User:MapReader">MapReader</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MapReader" title="User talk:MapReader">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-MapReader-20240727125900-Picard's_Facepalm-20240727060700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:59, 27 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MapReader-20240727125900-Picard's_Facepalm-20240727060700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MapReader-20240727125900-Picard's_Facepalm-20240727060700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-109.79.160.15-20240803154100-MapReader-20240727125900"></span>Yes. Keep and rephrase not delete. That's what the guidelines already say. Deleting a whole section is not the same as careful trimming or neat summarizing. There seems to be little disagreement on the substance, merely the style. -- <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/109.79.160.15" title="Special:Contributions/109.79.160.15">109.79.160.15</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:109.79.160.15&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:109.79.160.15 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-109.79.160.15-20240803154100-MapReader-20240727125900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:41, 3 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-109.79.160.15-20240803154100-MapReader-20240727125900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-109.79.160.15-20240803154100-MapReader-20240727125900"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Years_in_film" data-mw-thread-id="h-Years_in_film-20240814171300"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Years_in_film-20240814171300"></span>Years in film<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Years_in_film-20240814171300"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: Years in film"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721-20240814171300-Years_in_film"></span>Current practice, as seen on <a href="/wiki/2024_in_film" title="2024 in film">2024 in film</a> (but also reflected in the <a href="/wiki/2013_in_film" title="2013 in film">2013 in film</a> example in this policy), is to list country- and genre-specific lists of films on these pages, and not the extensive list of films themselves (which always wound up Americentric). This year I have been updating older articles such as <a href="/wiki/1970_in_film" title="1970 in film">1970 in film</a> on these lines to be free of systemic bias. <a href="/wiki/MOS:YEARSINFILM" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:YEARSINFILM">MOS:YEARSINFILM</a> still suggests including the list of films in its first guideline, so I believe this should be updated? We have also done away with genres on these tables on the sublists (see <a href="/wiki/List_of_American_films_of_2024" title="List of American films of 2024">List of American films of 2024</a>), so the fourth guideline is redundant. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721" title="Special:Contributions/2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721">2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721-20240814171300-Years_in_film" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:13, 14 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721-20240814171300-Years_in_film"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721-20240814171300-Years_in_film"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Betty_Logan-20240814180200-2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721-20240814171300"></span>I support the suggestion. The lists have out-grown these guidelines. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Betty_Logan&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Betty Logan (page does not exist)">Betty Logan</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Betty_Logan" title="User talk:Betty Logan">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Betty_Logan-20240814180200-2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721-20240814171300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Betty_Logan-20240814180200-2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721-20240814171300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Betty_Logan-20240814180200-2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721-20240814171300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721-20240814183600-Betty_Logan-20240814180200"></span>Here's an attempt at a first draft:</dd></dl></dd></dl> <div style="color:green;"> <dl><dd><dl><dd><ul><li>For years in film articles, such as <a href="/wiki/2013_in_film" title="2013 in film">2013 in film</a>, please follow these guidelines:</li></ul> <ol><li>Articles should list country- and genre-specific lists of films by year, such as <a href="/wiki/List_of_American_films_of_2013" title="List of American films of 2013">List of American films of 2013</a> and <a href="/wiki/List_of_horror_films_of_2013" title="List of horror films of 2013">List of horror films of 2013</a>. The detailed listing of films by their earliest release dates should be reserved for these child lists.</li> <li>In child lists, films should be organized by their earliest release date, whether it be at a film festival, a world premiere, a public release, or the release in the country or countries that produced the film, <em>excluding</em> sneak previews or screenings.</li> <li>Include only the director, screenwriter and the main cast, as per the guidance in the <a href="/wiki/Template:Infobox_film#Parameters" title="Template:Infobox film">starring field</a> of the film infobox.</li> <li>Do not include genre columns, as genre classifications can be subjective.</li> <li>For the deaths section, a person must have two film credits to be added to the list, no more than two of the most important works attributed to the individual, no red links and no re-directing links.</li> <li>The highest-grossing films chart should only include the top 10 films, along with their rank, title, studio, and worldwide gross.</li></ol></dd></dl></dd></dl> </div> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Please feel free to suggest any changes. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721" title="Special:Contributions/2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721">2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721-20240814183600-Betty_Logan-20240814180200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:36, 14 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721-20240814183600-Betty_Logan-20240814180200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721-20240814183600-Betty_Logan-20240814180200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240816114800-2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721-20240814183600"></span>I support this first draft. Perhaps Studio should be production companies as not all of the highest grossing films are going to be by major studios depending on the history of film. My heart is not set on this, so I'd like to hear some alternatives. <a href="/wiki/User:Andrzejbanas" title="User:Andrzejbanas">Andrzejbanas</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andrzejbanas" title="User talk:Andrzejbanas">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Andrzejbanas-20240816114800-2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721-20240814183600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:48, 16 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andrzejbanas-20240816114800-2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721-20240814183600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andrzejbanas-20240816114800-2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721-20240814183600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2001:8F8:172B:3BED:ED66:45E2:ABFE:E532-20240817174200-Andrzejbanas-20240816114800"></span>Yeah, I'm not opposed to changing studio for production company (or distributor), the guideline essentially remains the same. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2001:8F8:172B:3BED:ED66:45E2:ABFE:E532" title="Special:Contributions/2001:8F8:172B:3BED:ED66:45E2:ABFE:E532">2001:8F8:172B:3BED:ED66:45E2:ABFE:E532</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2001:8F8:172B:3BED:ED66:45E2:ABFE:E532&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:2001:8F8:172B:3BED:ED66:45E2:ABFE:E532 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-2001:8F8:172B:3BED:ED66:45E2:ABFE:E532-20240817174200-Andrzejbanas-20240816114800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:42, 17 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2001:8F8:172B:3BED:ED66:45E2:ABFE:E532-20240817174200-Andrzejbanas-20240816114800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2001:8F8:172B:3BED:ED66:45E2:ABFE:E532-20240817174200-Andrzejbanas-20240816114800"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2001:8F8:172B:436C:8561:29BE:D347:F64B-20240820194200-2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721-20240814171300"></span>It's been a while since anything new has been added to the discussion. Considering the general consensus here has been in favor of this change, I suggest we publish this draft per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BOLD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BOLD">WP:BOLD</a>, and adjust as needed depending on any new inputs. What does everyone think? <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2001:8F8:172B:436C:8561:29BE:D347:F64B" title="Special:Contributions/2001:8F8:172B:436C:8561:29BE:D347:F64B">2001:8F8:172B:436C:8561:29BE:D347:F64B</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2001:8F8:172B:436C:8561:29BE:D347:F64B&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:2001:8F8:172B:436C:8561:29BE:D347:F64B (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-2001:8F8:172B:436C:8561:29BE:D347:F64B-20240820194200-2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721-20240814171300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:42, 20 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2001:8F8:172B:436C:8561:29BE:D347:F64B-20240820194200-2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721-20240814171300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2001:8F8:172B:436C:8561:29BE:D347:F64B-20240820194200-2001:8F8:172B:43EC:D520:21F0:EC2A:721-20240814171300"></span></li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Semi-protected_edit_request_on_21_August_2024" data-mw-thread-id="h-Semi-protected_edit_request_on_21_August_2024-Years_in_film-20240821120600"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Semi-protected_edit_request_on_21_August_2024-Years_in_film-20240821120600"></span>Semi-protected edit request on 21 August 2024<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Semi-protected_edit_request_on_21_August_2024-Years_in_film-20240821120600"></span></h3><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: Semi-protected edit request on 21 August 2024"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2001:8F8:172B:436C:A50F:23AF:EBC6:3BB7-20240821120600-Semi-protected_edit_request_on_21_August_2024"></span><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="plainlinks tmbox mbox-small tmbox-notice editrequest" role="presentation" data-origlevel="semi"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/30px-Information_icon4.svg.png" decoding="async" width="30" height="30" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/45px-Information_icon4.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/60px-Information_icon4.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="620" data-file-height="620"/></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Edit_requests" title="Wikipedia:Edit requests">edit request</a> has been answered. Set the <code style="white-space: nowrap;">|answered=</code> or <code style="white-space: nowrap;">|ans=</code> parameter to <b>no</b> to reactivate your request.</td></tr></tbody></table> <p>Based on the general consensus reached in the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:MOSFILM#Years_in_film" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:MOSFILM">above discussion</a>, update the <a href="/wiki/MOS:FILMYEAR" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:FILMYEAR">guidelines on years in film pages</a> to the following: </p> <div style="color:green;"> <dl><dd><dl><dd><ul><li>For years in film articles, such as <a href="/wiki/2013_in_film" title="2013 in film">2013 in film</a>, please follow these guidelines:</li></ul> <ol><li>Articles should list country- and genre-specific lists of films by year, such as <a href="/wiki/List_of_American_films_of_2013" title="List of American films of 2013">List of American films of 2013</a> and <a href="/wiki/List_of_horror_films_of_2013" title="List of horror films of 2013">List of horror films of 2013</a>. The detailed listing of films by their earliest release dates should be reserved for these child lists.</li> <li>In child lists, films should be organized by their earliest release date, whether it be at a film festival, a world premiere, a public release, or the release in the country or countries that produced the film, <em>excluding</em> sneak previews or screenings.</li> <li>Include only the director, screenwriter and the main cast, as per the guidance in the <a href="/wiki/Template:Infobox_film#Parameters" title="Template:Infobox film">starring field</a> of the film infobox.</li> <li>Do not include genre columns, as genre classifications can be subjective.</li> <li>For the deaths section, a person must have two film credits to be added to the list, no more than two of the most important works attributed to the individual, no red links and no re-directing links.</li> <li>The highest-grossing films chart should only include the top 10 films, along with their rank, title, production company, and worldwide gross.</li></ol></dd></dl></dd></dl> </div> <p><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2001:8F8:172B:436C:A50F:23AF:EBC6:3BB7" title="Special:Contributions/2001:8F8:172B:436C:A50F:23AF:EBC6:3BB7">2001:8F8:172B:436C:A50F:23AF:EBC6:3BB7</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:2001:8F8:172B:436C:A50F:23AF:EBC6:3BB7" title="User talk:2001:8F8:172B:436C:A50F:23AF:EBC6:3BB7">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-2001:8F8:172B:436C:A50F:23AF:EBC6:3BB7-20240821120600-Semi-protected_edit_request_on_21_August_2024" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:06, 21 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2001:8F8:172B:436C:A50F:23AF:EBC6:3BB7-20240821120600-Semi-protected_edit_request_on_21_August_2024"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2001:8F8:172B:436C:A50F:23AF:EBC6:3BB7-20240821120600-Semi-protected_edit_request_on_21_August_2024"></span> </p><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-NotAGenious-20240824132300-2001:8F8:172B:436C:A50F:23AF:EBC6:3BB7-20240821120600"></span><span class="nowrap"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/18px-Yes_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="18" height="18" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/27px-Yes_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/36px-Yes_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span><b> Done</b></span> <a href="/wiki/User:NotAGenious" title="User:NotAGenious">NotAGenious</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NotAGenious" title="User talk:NotAGenious">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-NotAGenious-20240824132300-2001:8F8:172B:436C:A50F:23AF:EBC6:3BB7-20240821120600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:23, 24 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-NotAGenious-20240824132300-2001:8F8:172B:436C:A50F:23AF:EBC6:3BB7-20240821120600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-NotAGenious-20240824132300-2001:8F8:172B:436C:A50F:23AF:EBC6:3BB7-20240821120600"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="MOS_guidance_on_short_desciptions" data-mw-thread-id="h-MOS_guidance_on_short_desciptions-20240903160800"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-MOS_guidance_on_short_desciptions-20240903160800"></span>MOS guidance on short desciptions<span data-mw-comment-end="h-MOS_guidance_on_short_desciptions-20240903160800"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film&action=edit&section=7" title="Edit section: MOS guidance on short desciptions"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Favre1fan93-20240903160800-MOS_guidance_on_short_desciptions"></span>There is currently a discussion at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:FILM" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:FILM">WT:FILM</a> centered around short descriptions for film articles and it has evolved into realizing wording should be added to the MOS about acceptable SD practices for film-related articles. In the interest of keeping a centralized discussion, that can be found <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:FILM#Short_description" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:FILM">here</a>. All are welcome to join in. - <a href="/wiki/User:Favre1fan93" title="User:Favre1fan93">Favre1fan93</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Favre1fan93" title="User talk:Favre1fan93">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Favre1fan93-20240903160800-MOS_guidance_on_short_desciptions" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:08, 3 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Favre1fan93-20240903160800-MOS_guidance_on_short_desciptions"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Favre1fan93-20240903160800-MOS_guidance_on_short_desciptions"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Copyedit_of_MOS:FILMRATING" data-mw-thread-id="h-Copyedit_of_MOS:FILMRATING-20240904032900"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Copyedit_of_MOS:FILMRATING-20240904032900"></span>Copyedit of MOS:FILMRATING<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Copyedit_of_MOS:FILMRATING-20240904032900"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film&action=edit&section=8" title="Edit section: Copyedit of MOS:FILMRATING"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><a href="/wiki/MOS:FILMRATING" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:FILMRATING"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-WhatamIdoing-20240904032900-Copyedit_of_MOS:FILMRATING"></span>MOS:FILMRATING</a> has a sentence in it that says: </p><p><span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-added, #006400);">Since this is the English-language Wikipedia and not the American Wikipedia, avoid mere identification of ratings issued by the <a href="/wiki/Motion_Picture_Association_of_America" class="mw-redirect" title="Motion Picture Association of America">Motion Picture Association of America</a> (MPAA) to counter systemic bias (see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias">Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias</a> for more information).</span> </p><p>I think this is an awkward way to put this, and WP:CSB is not as active as it was when this sentence was written more than a decade ago. I suggest re-writing it this way: </p><p><span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-added, #006400);">If a film has been issued in multiple countries, avoid mere identification of ratings issued by just one of them (e.g., the US <a href="/wiki/Motion_Picture_Association_of_America" class="mw-redirect" title="Motion Picture Association of America">Motion Picture Association of America</a> (MPAA)).</span> </p><p>What do you think? <a href="/wiki/User:WhatamIdoing" title="User:WhatamIdoing">WhatamIdoing</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WhatamIdoing" title="User talk:WhatamIdoing">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-WhatamIdoing-20240904032900-Copyedit_of_MOS:FILMRATING" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:29, 4 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-WhatamIdoing-20240904032900-Copyedit_of_MOS:FILMRATING"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-WhatamIdoing-20240904032900-Copyedit_of_MOS:FILMRATING"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Geraldo_Perez-20240904034000-WhatamIdoing-20240904032900"></span>We should just tie ratings info to the release in country of production, much like release dates. A British film released in the UK doesn't need American rating info, just the British ones for example if ratings are in the infobox. If there is a release section in the article with release info in other countries that would be the appropriate place to include the rating info for that country along with its release date. <a href="/wiki/User:Geraldo_Perez" title="User:Geraldo Perez">Geraldo Perez</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Geraldo_Perez" title="User talk:Geraldo Perez">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Geraldo_Perez-20240904034000-WhatamIdoing-20240904032900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:40, 4 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Geraldo_Perez-20240904034000-WhatamIdoing-20240904032900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Geraldo_Perez-20240904034000-WhatamIdoing-20240904032900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-WhatamIdoing-20240904041600-Geraldo_Perez-20240904034000"></span>I think that's the approach taken by books. While the article might have a reason to talk about all the different editions, translations, etc., the infobox is about the first edition. <a href="/wiki/User:WhatamIdoing" title="User:WhatamIdoing">WhatamIdoing</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WhatamIdoing" title="User talk:WhatamIdoing">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-WhatamIdoing-20240904041600-Geraldo_Perez-20240904034000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:16, 4 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-WhatamIdoing-20240904041600-Geraldo_Perez-20240904034000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-WhatamIdoing-20240904041600-Geraldo_Perez-20240904034000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Betty_Logan-20240904055100-WhatamIdoing-20240904041600"></span>I think the text proposed by <i>WhatamIdoing</i> is fine—the subsequent sentence provides adequate instruction. Ratings are not included in the infobox in any case. I am slightly worried that by tying it in to FILMRELEASE we will encourage the opposite of what we are trying to achieve with this guidance e.g. editors adding MPAA ratings for American films, BBFC ratings for British films etc. I have no issue with including a BBFC censorship row in an article about an American film, and vice versa, provided it supports encyclopedic coverage of the film—something like the infamous <i><a href="/wiki/Child%27s_Play_3" title="Child's Play 3">Child's Play 3</a></i> ban in the UK, after it was implicated in the James Bulger murder. It would be a shame if that information were excised because the controversy related specifically to the UK. Basically what we are aiming for here is global, encyclopedic coverage, rather than indiscriminate coverage which reflects the bias of the editor. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Betty_Logan&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Betty Logan (page does not exist)">Betty Logan</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Betty_Logan" title="User talk:Betty Logan">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Betty_Logan-20240904055100-WhatamIdoing-20240904041600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:51, 4 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Betty_Logan-20240904055100-WhatamIdoing-20240904041600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Betty_Logan-20240904055100-WhatamIdoing-20240904041600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-WhatamIdoing-20240904161300-Betty_Logan-20240904055100"></span>I wonder if adding a "good example" might help. Perhaps a very minimal, but perhaps still acceptable(?), statement might look like "It received an A rating from the Ruritanian system due to violence and an B rating from the Absurdistan system due to political violence"? Most films don't have any sort of controversy over the ratings. <a href="/wiki/User:WhatamIdoing" title="User:WhatamIdoing">WhatamIdoing</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WhatamIdoing" title="User talk:WhatamIdoing">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-WhatamIdoing-20240904161300-Betty_Logan-20240904055100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:13, 4 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-WhatamIdoing-20240904161300-Betty_Logan-20240904055100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-WhatamIdoing-20240904161300-Betty_Logan-20240904055100"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Doniago-20240904142200-WhatamIdoing-20240904032900"></span>I'm honestly a little confused as to why this sentence is included in the first place. I thought the primary impetus for including this section was to discourage editors from just saying, "The film received an R rating" or such, without any sourced discussion of said rating. The section already includes that guidance prior to this sentence, so isn't saying to avoid mere identification of ratings redundant at that point? Or are we saying that if it's a foreign film then it would inappropriate to mention the MPAA rating even if there was sourced discussion about said rating without including additional discussion of the rating in other locales (for which there may not even be such discussion to include)? <a href="/wiki/User:Doniago" title="User:Doniago">DonIago</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Doniago" title="User talk:Doniago">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Doniago-20240904142200-WhatamIdoing-20240904032900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:22, 4 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Doniago-20240904142200-WhatamIdoing-20240904032900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Doniago-20240904142200-WhatamIdoing-20240904032900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-WhatamIdoing-20240904163800-Doniago-20240904142200"></span>My impression is that they originally wanted to prevent Americans from adding <i>only</i> the American ratings, especially to non-American films. It is probably not a surprise to, say, Europeans, that the American rating system exists. It appears to be a surprise to many Americans that any other ratings systems exist. For example, I had no idea that there could be a <a href="/wiki/List_of_films_condemned_by_the_Legion_of_Decency" title="List of films condemned by the Legion of Decency">List of films condemned by the Legion of Decency</a>, because I had no idea that they rated films. <a href="/wiki/User:WhatamIdoing" title="User:WhatamIdoing">WhatamIdoing</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WhatamIdoing" title="User talk:WhatamIdoing">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-WhatamIdoing-20240904163800-Doniago-20240904142200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:38, 4 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-WhatamIdoing-20240904163800-Doniago-20240904142200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-WhatamIdoing-20240904163800-Doniago-20240904142200"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Favre1fan93-20240904171500-Doniago-20240904142200"></span>I agree with Doniago that I think both these sentences (<link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Since this is the English-language Wikipedia and not the American Wikipedia, avoid mere identification of ratings issued by the <a href="/wiki/Motion_Picture_Association_of_America" class="mw-redirect" title="Motion Picture Association of America">Motion Picture Association of America</a> (MPAA) to counter systemic bias (see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias">Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias</a> for more information). Provide global coverage of how different territories rate individual films if substantial coverage exists.</q>) can be folded into the earlier sentences of the paragraph. It's just repeating what is said there. - <a href="/wiki/User:Favre1fan93" title="User:Favre1fan93">Favre1fan93</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Favre1fan93" title="User talk:Favre1fan93">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Favre1fan93-20240904171500-Doniago-20240904142200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:15, 4 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Favre1fan93-20240904171500-Doniago-20240904142200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Favre1fan93-20240904171500-Doniago-20240904142200"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Erik-20240904195600-Doniago-20240904142200"></span>It's possible I wrote this language years ago (like, over a decade), but I think editors at the time were focused on MPAA ratings being added all over the place. I feel like that's a non-issue nowadays, so we can just remove that focus. <a href="/wiki/User:Erik" title="User:Erik">Erik</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Erik" title="User talk:Erik">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Erik" title="Special:Contributions/Erik">contrib</a>) <sup>(<a href="/wiki/Template:Reply_to" title="Template:Reply to">ping me</a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Erik-20240904195600-Doniago-20240904142200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:56, 4 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Erik-20240904195600-Doniago-20240904142200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Erik-20240904195600-Doniago-20240904142200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-109.76.198.63-20240919123000-Erik-20240904195600"></span>(For readers and anyone looking at old archive pages this topic was <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film#Ratings_discussions">raised elsewhere</a> before specific wording changes were proposed.) The indiscriminate spamming of American ratings and systemic bias was only part of those discussion, IIRC the eventual conclusion was that ratings were subjective and in general not interesting or noteworthy. (European films not being bothered by nudity or American films not noticing gun violence was a frequent trope from writers looking to fill pages, someone somewhere would mention it but it was trivial and rarely received significant coverage that necessitated being mentioned in an encyclopedia.) It wasn't about highlighting only one source of ratings it was that in most cases there was no good reason to mention ratings at all. Only in rare cases where a film was banned or recut that there were any secondary sources actually discussing the rating (or rare cases where a film prompted ratings system changes e.g. <a href="/wiki/Gremlins" title="Gremlins">Gremlins</a>, <a href="/wiki/Indiana_Jones_and_the_Temple_of_Doom" title="Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom">Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom</a>). Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia not TV Guide, and <a href="/wiki/MOS:FILMRATING" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:FILMRATING">MOS:FILMRATING</a> covers this well as in most cases there is still no good reason to mention the ratings unless <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">"there is substantial coverage from reliable sources"</q>. Removing the mention of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CSB" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CSB">WP:CSB</a> is one thing, but ratings should not be included at all so please do not change the wording to suggest otherwise. -- <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/109.76.198.63" title="Special:Contributions/109.76.198.63">109.76.198.63</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:109.76.198.63" title="User talk:109.76.198.63">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-109.76.198.63-20240919123000-Erik-20240904195600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:30, 19 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-109.76.198.63-20240919123000-Erik-20240904195600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-109.76.198.63-20240919123000-Erik-20240904195600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Doniago-20240919125700-109.76.198.63-20240919123000"></span>The pertinent section already includes the text, " In film articles, avoid indiscriminate identification of ratings and instead focus on ratings for which there is substantial coverage from reliable sources.", and I don't think anybody is talking about modifying or removing that text. <a href="/wiki/User:Doniago" title="User:Doniago">DonIago</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Doniago" title="User talk:Doniago">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Doniago-20240919125700-109.76.198.63-20240919123000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:57, 19 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Doniago-20240919125700-109.76.198.63-20240919123000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Doniago-20240919125700-109.76.198.63-20240919123000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-109.76.198.63-20240919153600-Doniago-20240919125700"></span>The parent post specifically proposed changing the wording to "If a film has been issued in multiple countries, avoid mere identification of ratings issued by <b>just one of them</b>" and that change of emphasis seems to encourage adding of multiple ratings, which some editors might choose to read selectively instead of paying attention to the sentiment of the whole paragraph, that is do not include ratings at all and only include ratings if and when there is <i><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">substantial coverage</q></i>. I agree that the parenthetical about <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CSB" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CSB">WP:CSB</a> could be safely removed, but I urge caution when it comes to any further modification of the text that might be perceived to allow more broad exceptions. (<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:VGSCOPE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:VGSCOPE">WP:VGSCOPE</a> Video game articles are a mess of trivia and even they don't include ratings either unless it "is the subject of independent commentary".) In general there is no need for an encyclopedia article to include ratings. -- <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/109.76.198.63" title="Special:Contributions/109.76.198.63">109.76.198.63</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:109.76.198.63" title="User talk:109.76.198.63">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-109.76.198.63-20240919153600-Doniago-20240919125700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:36, 19 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-109.76.198.63-20240919153600-Doniago-20240919125700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-109.76.198.63-20240919153600-Doniago-20240919125700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-WhatamIdoing-20240919205300-109.76.198.63-20240919153600"></span>Since nobody seems to think that mentioning <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias">Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias</a> is necessary, I've removed that. <a href="/wiki/User:WhatamIdoing" title="User:WhatamIdoing">WhatamIdoing</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WhatamIdoing" title="User talk:WhatamIdoing">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-WhatamIdoing-20240919205300-109.76.198.63-20240919153600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:53, 19 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-WhatamIdoing-20240919205300-109.76.198.63-20240919153600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-WhatamIdoing-20240919205300-109.76.198.63-20240919153600"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-WhatamIdoing-20240919205800-Copyedit_of_MOS:FILMRATING"></span>Looking at the text (now that WP:CSB is no longer mentioned), I think that whole sentence could be removed with no harm: </p> <table class="diff" style="width:100%"><tbody><tr><td class="diff-marker" style="width: 2%; padding: 0.25em; font-weight: bold;font-size: 1.25em; text-align: end;">−</td><td class="diff-deletedline" style="border-color: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); vertical-align:top; width: 48%; border-style: solid; border-radius: 0.33em; padding: 0.33em 0.5em; color: inherit; font-size: 1em; font-family: monospace; white-space: pre-wrap; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; -webkit-border-end-width: 1px; -webkit-border-start-width: 4px; -moz-border-end-width: 1px; -moz-border-start-width: 4px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; direction: ltr;">Ratings given to individual films by [[motion picture rating system]]s will vary by territories in accordance to their cultures and their types of governance. In film articles, avoid [[WP:INDISCRIMINATE|indiscriminate]] identification of ratings and instead focus on ratings for which there is substantial coverage from reliable sources. Coverage of ratings can include how a film is produced to target specific audiences, the late editing of a film to acquire a specific rating, or controversy over whether or not a film's rating was appropriately assigned<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">. </del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">Since</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;"> </del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">this</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;"> </del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">is</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;"> </del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">the</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;"> </del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">English</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">-</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">language</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;"> </del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">Wikipedia</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;"> </del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">and</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;"> </del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">not</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;"> </del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">the</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;"> </del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">American</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;"> </del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">Wikipedia,</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;"> </del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">avoid</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;"> </del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">mere</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;"> </del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">identification</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;"> </del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">of</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;"> </del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">ratings</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;"> </del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">issued</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;"> </del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">by</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;"> </del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">the</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;"> </del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">[[Motion</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;"> </del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">Picture</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;"> </del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">Association</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;"> </del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">of</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;"> </del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">America]]</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;"> </del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">(MPAA)</del><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-removed,#ffe49c); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">. </del>Provide global coverage of how different territories rate individual films if substantial coverage exists. Retrospective coverage is also welcomed to evaluate how films were rated in their time period, such as the 1969 film ''[[Midnight Cowboy]]'' being X-rated initially by the MPAA. Rating coverage generally belongs in the "Release" section, though coverage can be elsewhere. For instance, the "Production" section can detail the filmmakers' goal to achieve a specific rating in making the film, or a stand-alone section can cover controversy surrounding a rating if enough detail exists.</div></td><td style="width: 2%; padding: 0.25em; font-weight: bold;font-size: 1.25em; text-align: end;">+</td><td class="diff-addedline" style="border-color: var(--background-color-content-added,#a3d3ff); vertical-align:top; width: 48%; border-style: solid; border-radius: 0.33em; padding: 0.33em 0.5em; color: inherit; font-size: 1em; font-family: monospace; white-space: pre-wrap; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; -webkit-border-end-width: 1px; -webkit-border-start-width: 4px; -moz-border-end-width: 1px; -moz-border-start-width: 4px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; direction: ltr;">Ratings given to individual films by [[motion picture rating system]]s will vary by territories in accordance to their cultures and their types of governance. In film articles, avoid [[WP:INDISCRIMINATE|indiscriminate]] identification of ratings and instead focus on ratings for which there is substantial coverage from reliable sources. Coverage of ratings can include how a film is produced to target specific audiences, the late editing of a film to acquire a specific rating, or controversy over whether or not a film's rating was appropriately assigned<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline" style="background: var(--background-color-content-added,#a3d3ff); color: inherit; padding: 0.25em 0; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: initial;">. </ins>Provide global coverage of how different territories rate individual films if substantial coverage exists. Retrospective coverage is also welcomed to evaluate how films were rated in their time period, such as the 1969 film ''[[Midnight Cowboy]]'' being X-rated initially by the MPAA. Rating coverage generally belongs in the "Release" section, though coverage can be elsewhere. For instance, the "Production" section can detail the filmmakers' goal to achieve a specific rating in making the film, or a stand-alone section can cover controversy surrounding a rating if enough detail exists.</div></td></tr></tbody></table> <p>The existing sentence after it already encourages a global focus. <a href="/wiki/User:WhatamIdoing" title="User:WhatamIdoing">WhatamIdoing</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WhatamIdoing" title="User talk:WhatamIdoing">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-WhatamIdoing-20240919205800-Copyedit_of_MOS:FILMRATING" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:58, 19 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-WhatamIdoing-20240919205800-Copyedit_of_MOS:FILMRATING"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-WhatamIdoing-20240919205800-Copyedit_of_MOS:FILMRATING"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-109.76.198.63-20240920000300-WhatamIdoing-20240919205800"></span>First thank you.</dd> <dd>Secondly, on closer inspection I notice the section is out of step with more recent policy <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CSECTION" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CSECTION">against creating Controversy sections</a> and I would recommend that the text <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">"or a stand-alone section can cover controversy surrounding a rating if enough detail exists."</q> also be deleted, or rephrased to expressly warn editors against creating a "Controversy" section. -- <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/109.76.198.63" title="Special:Contributions/109.76.198.63">109.76.198.63</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:109.76.198.63" title="User talk:109.76.198.63">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-109.76.198.63-20240920000300-WhatamIdoing-20240919205800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:03, 20 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-109.76.198.63-20240920000300-WhatamIdoing-20240919205800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-109.76.198.63-20240920000300-WhatamIdoing-20240919205800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-WhatamIdoing-20240920002100-109.76.198.63-20240920000300"></span>Perhaps the intention was to encourage a ==Rating== section in such cases. <a href="/wiki/User:WhatamIdoing" title="User:WhatamIdoing">WhatamIdoing</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WhatamIdoing" title="User talk:WhatamIdoing">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-WhatamIdoing-20240920002100-109.76.198.63-20240920000300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:21, 20 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-WhatamIdoing-20240920002100-109.76.198.63-20240920000300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-WhatamIdoing-20240920002100-109.76.198.63-20240920000300"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Doniago-20240920022600-109.76.198.63-20240920000300"></span>What would you suggest as alternate phrasing? <a href="/wiki/User:Doniago" title="User:Doniago">DonIago</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Doniago" title="User talk:Doniago">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Doniago-20240920022600-109.76.198.63-20240920000300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:26, 20 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Doniago-20240920022600-109.76.198.63-20240920000300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Doniago-20240920022600-109.76.198.63-20240920000300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-109.76.199.27-20240920152400-Doniago-20240920022600"></span>The indent level of the comment from DonIago implies the question was aimed at me but logically it seems more likely it was for the other editor and their suggestion of a "Rating" subsection. Either way my recommendation was and still is to the delete the text I quoted and highlighted above, because fitting the information into the Release or Production sections already seems like the best general advice and the very rare cases where there is enough for a whole subsection will probably be decided on a case by case basis anyway. -- <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/109.76.199.27" title="Special:Contributions/109.76.199.27">109.76.199.27</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:109.76.199.27&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:109.76.199.27 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-109.76.199.27-20240920152400-Doniago-20240920022600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:24, 20 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-109.76.199.27-20240920152400-Doniago-20240920022600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-109.76.199.27-20240920152400-Doniago-20240920022600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Doniago-20240920162500-109.76.199.27-20240920152400"></span>No, my comment was for you since you also suggested rephrasing the text as an alternative to removing it. I have no issues with the creation of a "Rating" section if there's sufficient text to justify the existence of such a section, which you seem to agree with; we just seem to disagree as to whether there's any point to mentioning it. Since the text already specifies <i>if enough detail exists</i>, I don't see how that's at odds with what you seem to be advocating for, though I suppose it's possible that disputes might ensue over what constitutes <i>enough detail</i>; then again, I think the number of articles where ratings even come up is relatively small. <a href="/wiki/User:Doniago" title="User:Doniago">DonIago</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Doniago" title="User talk:Doniago">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Doniago-20240920162500-109.76.199.27-20240920152400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:25, 20 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Doniago-20240920162500-109.76.199.27-20240920152400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Doniago-20240920162500-109.76.199.27-20240920152400"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id=""Internationally_co-produced"" data-mw-thread-id="h-"Internationally_co-produced"-20240917073900"><span id=".22Internationally_co-produced.22"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-"Internationally_co-produced"-20240917073900"></span>"Internationally co-produced"<span data-mw-comment-end="h-"Internationally_co-produced"-20240917073900"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film&action=edit&section=9" title="Edit section: "Internationally co-produced""><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Οἶδα-20240917073900-"Internationally_co-produced""></span>Following the longstanding guideline at <a href="/wiki/MOS:FILMLEAD" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:FILMLEAD">MOS:FILMLEAD</a>, should not "internationally co-produced" similarly be avoided for opening sentences? Combing through the historical usage of this, it appears Lugnuts normalised it. Certainly not the most pressing issue, but I could not find any previous discussions on the topic. It is another way of saying the nationality is not singular, which the MOS would seem to advise against for openers. <a href="/wiki/User:%CE%9F%E1%BC%B6%CE%B4%CE%B1" title="User:Οἶδα">Οἶδα</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%CE%9F%E1%BC%B6%CE%B4%CE%B1" title="User talk:Οἶδα">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Οἶδα-20240917073900-"Internationally_co-produced"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:39, 17 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Οἶδα-20240917073900-"Internationally_co-produced""><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Οἶδα-20240917073900-"Internationally_co-produced""></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Darkwarriorblake-20240917091800-Οἶδα-20240917073900"></span>I agree, it's just a means of skirting the issue and shouldn't be encouraged. <a href="/wiki/User:Darkwarriorblake" title="User:Darkwarriorblake">Darkwarriorblake</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Darkwarriorblake" title="User talk:Darkwarriorblake">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Darkwarriorblake-20240917091800-Οἶδα-20240917073900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:18, 17 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Darkwarriorblake-20240917091800-Οἶδα-20240917073900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Darkwarriorblake-20240917091800-Οἶδα-20240917073900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andrzejbanas-20241015195500-Darkwarriorblake-20240917091800"></span>While I agree, the nationality of films, especially in the present day for non-Hollywood productions is often complex and the nationality of a film often seems to have very little <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WEIGHT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:WEIGHT">weight</a> for several products. Half the time, films are identified with this in an article, with no discussion of how it fits the mold of an American film, or a French-Italian co-production, or something like <i><a href="/wiki/Turbo_Kid" title="Turbo Kid">Turbo Kid</a></i>, a Canadian-New Zealand co-production. What do you propose <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:%CE%9F%E1%BC%B6%CE%B4%CE%B1" title="User:Οἶδα">Οἶδα</a>:</span>? <a href="/wiki/User:Andrzejbanas" title="User:Andrzejbanas">Andrzejbanas</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andrzejbanas" title="User talk:Andrzejbanas">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Andrzejbanas-20241015195500-Darkwarriorblake-20240917091800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:55, 15 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andrzejbanas-20241015195500-Darkwarriorblake-20240917091800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andrzejbanas-20241015195500-Darkwarriorblake-20240917091800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Οἶδα-20241015223900-Andrzejbanas-20241015195500"></span>Depends. Most international co-productions I see are between 2-4 countries. Of course exceptions could be made for more complex cases. However, a good example would be <a href="/wiki/Nymphomaniac_(film)" title="Nymphomaniac (film)">Nymphomaniac (film)</a>, which writes the following at the end of the first paragraph: "<i>Nymphomaniac</i> was an international co-production of Denmark, Belgium, France, and Germany." This discussion was specifically in relation to first sentences, not later uses of "internationally co-produced". For a more complex case such as <a href="/wiki/The_Man_Who_Sold_His_Skin" title="The Man Who Sold His Skin">The Man Who Sold His Skin</a>, you could mention later in the lead that it is an internationally co-production without exhaustively covering each national interest and instead leaving that in the body of the article. <a href="/wiki/User:%CE%9F%E1%BC%B6%CE%B4%CE%B1" title="User:Οἶδα">Οἶδα</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%CE%9F%E1%BC%B6%CE%B4%CE%B1" title="User talk:Οἶδα">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Οἶδα-20241015223900-Andrzejbanas-20241015195500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:39, 15 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Οἶδα-20241015223900-Andrzejbanas-20241015195500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Οἶδα-20241015223900-Andrzejbanas-20241015195500"></span> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/MOS:FILMLEAD" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:FILMLEAD"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andrzejbanas-20241017135200-Οἶδα-20241015223900"></span>MOS:FILMLEAD</a> already states to "If the nationality is not singular, cover the different national interests later in the lead section." That being said, even <i>Nymphomaniac</i> doesn't have a source for its claim. As <a href="/wiki/MOS:INTRO" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:INTRO">MOS:INTRO</a> states "The lead should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article, in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article." I think I did an okay job of this in <i><a href="/wiki/Blood_and_Black_Lace" title="Blood and Black Lace">Blood and Black Lace</a></i>. As I don't think being a production of two to any large amount is going to mean much to the average viewer without context, I think it would be best to include this information in the prose if it can be discussed with some relevant detail. <a href="/wiki/User:Andrzejbanas" title="User:Andrzejbanas">Andrzejbanas</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andrzejbanas" title="User talk:Andrzejbanas">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Andrzejbanas-20241017135200-Οἶδα-20241015223900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:52, 17 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andrzejbanas-20241017135200-Οἶδα-20241015223900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andrzejbanas-20241017135200-Οἶδα-20241015223900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Οἶδα-20241017205800-Andrzejbanas-20241017135200"></span>Yes, I am aware of what is stated at <a href="/wiki/MOS:FILMLEAD" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:FILMLEAD">MOS:FILMLEAD</a>, as it is what started this discussion. And I was not intending to using the Nymphomaniac article as being representative of requisite sourcing but rather the language/placement as being preferable and conforming to the guideline. The issue I had was with the immediate sentence of articles reading ""internationally co-produced". Again, not a serious issue, but still something I believe should be discouraged given the guideline. Your article of <i>Blood and Black Lace</i> is a consummate example as it explores the nature and magnitude of its multi-nationality. Unfortunately most of these articles do not include such details and a "internationally co-produced" opener does not communicate anything more and, as you alluded to, is potentially undue weight without context. <a href="/wiki/User:%CE%9F%E1%BC%B6%CE%B4%CE%B1" title="User:Οἶδα">Οἶδα</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%CE%9F%E1%BC%B6%CE%B4%CE%B1" title="User talk:Οἶδα">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Οἶδα-20241017205800-Andrzejbanas-20241017135200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:58, 17 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Οἶδα-20241017205800-Andrzejbanas-20241017135200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Οἶδα-20241017205800-Andrzejbanas-20241017135200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andrzejbanas-20241017210300-Οἶδα-20241017205800"></span>Yeah, its a shame that these kind of specific details are not thoroughly more available, even from more technical databases. Do get back to your point, I do think we should probably drop that term as its vague and only sounds like something that we don't really see used in regular film discussion. I'd say feel comfortable in dropping the term if seen. <a href="/wiki/User:Andrzejbanas" title="User:Andrzejbanas">Andrzejbanas</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andrzejbanas" title="User talk:Andrzejbanas">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Andrzejbanas-20241017210300-Οἶδα-20241017205800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:03, 17 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andrzejbanas-20241017210300-Οἶδα-20241017205800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andrzejbanas-20241017210300-Οἶδα-20241017205800"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Film_series" data-mw-thread-id="h-Film_series-20241015195100"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Film_series-20241015195100"></span>Film series<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Film_series-20241015195100"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film&action=edit&section=10" title="Edit section: Film series"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andrzejbanas-20241015195100-Film_series"></span>It is time to probably re-phrase our <a href="/wiki/MOS:FILMSERIES" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:FILMSERIES">MOS:FILMSERIES</a>. Currently, it states " film series article should only be created when the series encompasses at least three films." Generally, as we have with Xfds for articles on series/franchises for <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Rosemary%27s_Baby_(franchise)" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rosemary's Baby (franchise)">Rosemary's Baby</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Three_Men_and_a_Baby_(franchise)" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Three Men and a Baby (franchise)">Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Three Men and a Baby (franchise)</a> have been deleted due to a lack of signifigant coverage. I understand instruction creep is a thing, but just because a film has one or two sequels or spin-offs, or becomes transmedial, suggesting an article should/could be created is probably not appropriate per the last two Xfds. I'm proposing a change from "A film series article should only be created when the series encompasses at least three films. An article for two films is too premature for consolidating details from both. Exceptions may include franchise articles where films are one of several notable and interrelated components (TV series, comics, etc.)." to something like "A film series article should only be created when there is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SIGCOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SIGCOV">signifigant coverage</a> of the work as a whole." I'd suggest this can pertain to reception to the series or an overview of the work, as currently, so many film franchise and series articles fail <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SIGCOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SIGCOV">WP:SIGCOV</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SYNTH" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SYNTH">WP:SYNTH</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Andrzejbanas" title="User:Andrzejbanas">Andrzejbanas</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andrzejbanas" title="User talk:Andrzejbanas">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Andrzejbanas-20241015195100-Film_series" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:51, 15 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andrzejbanas-20241015195100-Film_series"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andrzejbanas-20241015195100-Film_series"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-InfiniteNexus-20241104201700-Andrzejbanas-20241015195100"></span>MOS:FILMSERIES does not say that if a film series encompasses at least three films, an article must automatically be created. It says an article may only be created if a film series encompasses at least three films. This is a common misreading that we have also seen with <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NFF" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NFF">WP:NFF</a> (just because a film has started filming does not automatically mean it is notable for an article). Notability, i.e. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:GNG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:GNG">WP:GNG</a>, is still a required component. So, this wording does not need adjusting. <a href="/wiki/User:InfiniteNexus" title="User:InfiniteNexus">InfiniteNexus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:InfiniteNexus" title="User talk:InfiniteNexus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-InfiniteNexus-20241104201700-Andrzejbanas-20241015195100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:17, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-InfiniteNexus-20241104201700-Andrzejbanas-20241015195100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-InfiniteNexus-20241104201700-Andrzejbanas-20241015195100"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id=""Received_negative_reviews_but_was_a_box_office_success..."" data-mw-thread-id="h-"Received_negative_reviews_but_was_a_box_office_success..."-20241021124800"><span id=".22Received_negative_reviews_but_was_a_box_office_success....22"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-"Received_negative_reviews_but_was_a_box_office_success..."-20241021124800"></span>"Received negative reviews but was a box office success..."<span data-mw-comment-end="h-"Received_negative_reviews_but_was_a_box_office_success..."-20241021124800"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film&action=edit&section=11" title="Edit section: "Received negative reviews but was a box office success...""><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Doniago-20241021124800-"Received_negative_reviews_but_was_a_box_office_success...""></span>Should we update <a href="/wiki/MOS:FILMLEAD" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:FILMLEAD">MOS:FILMLEAD</a> to recommend avoiding phrasing such as the above, or perhaps explicitly recommend putting critical and box office performance in separate sentences? Many well-reviewed films do poorly, while many poorly reviewed films do well. Phrasing such as the above implies a causal relationship between reviews and box office performance. A more extreme example would be, "Despite receiving negative reviews, the film performed well at the box office..." which suggests that audiences intentionally ignored the reviews. In some cases I've seen this addressed by converting the "but" to an "and"; I'm not sure that eliminates the suggestion of a relationship, but it at least weakens it. <a href="/wiki/User:Doniago" title="User:Doniago">DonIago</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Doniago" title="User talk:Doniago">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Doniago-20241021124800-"Received_negative_reviews_but_was_a_box_office_success..."" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:48, 21 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Doniago-20241021124800-"Received_negative_reviews_but_was_a_box_office_success...""><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Doniago-20241021124800-"Received_negative_reviews_but_was_a_box_office_success...""></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andrzejbanas-20241021130700-Doniago-20241021124800"></span>I've seen this throughout articles where people try to say "well Siskel & Ebert gave it a thumbs down, but said a few good things" or the statement you said above. I'm not sure if we should have it in the Manual of Style for films, as it seems to be just a case of <a href="/wiki/MOS:EDITORIAL" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:EDITORIAL">MOS:EDITORIAL</a>. Specifically that "editorializing can produce implications that are not supported by the sources. When used to link two statements, words such as but, despite, however, and although may imply a relationship where none exists, possibly unduly calling the validity of the first statement into question while giving undue weight to the credibility of the second." If spotted in articles, I would just remove them as (I'm going on a hunch) most folks adding this are probably unfamiliar with the MOS:FILM standards, and should be probably be pointed to the rule I mentioned so its not applied anywhere in any article. <a href="/wiki/User:Andrzejbanas" title="User:Andrzejbanas">Andrzejbanas</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andrzejbanas" title="User talk:Andrzejbanas">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Andrzejbanas-20241021130700-Doniago-20241021124800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:07, 21 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andrzejbanas-20241021130700-Doniago-20241021124800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andrzejbanas-20241021130700-Doniago-20241021124800"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="400_and_700_words" data-mw-thread-id="h-400_and_700_words-20241109090600"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-400_and_700_words-20241109090600"></span>400 and 700 words<span data-mw-comment-end="h-400_and_700_words-20241109090600"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film&action=edit&section=12" title="Edit section: 400 and 700 words"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jason_Quinn-20241109090600-400_and_700_words"></span>The <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:FILMPLOT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:FILMPLOT">WP:FILMPLOT</a> section says "Plot summaries for feature films should be between 400 and 700 words." This seems too strict of a wording as I see no reason why a plot summary cannot be shorter than 400 words. I propose this sentence be reworded to the simpler and less constrained, </p> <dl><dd>Plot summaries should be less than 700 words.</dd></dl> <p>Alternatively, if we do want to emphasis the typical length, </p> <dl><dd>Plot summaries should be less than 700 words but are typically more than 400.</dd></dl> <p>I have no strong preference over either form but both I think are more ideal than the current wording. <a href="/wiki/User:Jason_Quinn" title="User:Jason Quinn">Jason Quinn</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jason_Quinn" title="User talk:Jason Quinn">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Jason_Quinn-20241109090600-400_and_700_words" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:06, 9 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jason_Quinn-20241109090600-400_and_700_words"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jason_Quinn-20241109090600-400_and_700_words"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Betty_Logan-20241109094800-Jason_Quinn-20241109090600"></span>The purpose of having a lower limit is to encourage having a meaningful plot summary. The limits are both somewhat arbitrary, but is somewhat set to encourage half a page of A4 to a full page in order to prescribe sufficient detail to summarize the plot. There may be examples where the lower-limit cannot be fulfilled—such as in the case of films that have not been released, or lost films—but those easily fall into the class of exceptions to the guidelines. A typical feature length film should ideally have a meaningful plot summary, which will require a lower-limit of some nature. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Betty_Logan&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Betty Logan (page does not exist)">Betty Logan</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Betty_Logan" title="User talk:Betty Logan">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Betty_Logan-20241109094800-Jason_Quinn-20241109090600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:48, 9 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Betty_Logan-20241109094800-Jason_Quinn-20241109090600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Betty_Logan-20241109094800-Jason_Quinn-20241109090600"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-NinjaRobotPirate-20241110032200-Jason_Quinn-20241109090600"></span>Very short plot summaries can be counterproductive in helping people understand what the praise and criticism in the reception is referencing. <a href="/wiki/User:NinjaRobotPirate" title="User:NinjaRobotPirate">NinjaRobotPirate</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NinjaRobotPirate" title="User talk:NinjaRobotPirate">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-NinjaRobotPirate-20241110032200-Jason_Quinn-20241109090600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:22, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-NinjaRobotPirate-20241110032200-Jason_Quinn-20241109090600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-NinjaRobotPirate-20241110032200-Jason_Quinn-20241109090600"></span></dd></dl> <div class="outdent-template" style="position:relative;left:1px;"><span style="display:block;width:16em;height:0.5em;border-bottom:1px solid #a2a9b1;border-right:1px solid #a2a9b1;"></span><span style="display:block;width:16em;height:0.5em;border-left:1px solid #a2a9b1;"></span></div><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jason_Quinn-20241110214400-400_and_700_words"></span> Points taken, Betty Logan and NinjaRobotPirate. But my second proposed wording, "Plot summaries should be less than 700 words but are typically more than 400" seems to both encourage longer summaries while not explicitly forbidding shorter ones. Is it not then an improvement to the current wording? <a href="/wiki/User:Jason_Quinn" title="User:Jason Quinn">Jason Quinn</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jason_Quinn" title="User talk:Jason Quinn">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Jason_Quinn-20241110214400-400_and_700_words" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:44, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jason_Quinn-20241110214400-400_and_700_words"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jason_Quinn-20241110214400-400_and_700_words"></span> </p><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Meters-20241110214900-Jason_Quinn-20241110214400"></span>I like the second proposal. No need for anyone to attempt to pad a short but adequate plot summary. <a href="/wiki/User:Meters" title="User:Meters">Meters</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Meters" title="User talk:Meters">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Meters-20241110214900-Jason_Quinn-20241110214400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:49, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Meters-20241110214900-Jason_Quinn-20241110214400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Meters-20241110214900-Jason_Quinn-20241110214400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Adamstom.97-20241110220600-Meters-20241110214900"></span>The current wording does not "forbid" plot summaries from being less than 400. This page is a set of guidelines, not policies, so if there is some reason that a plot summary should be less then 400 words then local consensus can confirm the exception. But we should not be suggesting that this should be a common practice as for more films a plot summary less than 400 words means it is inadequate. - <a href="/wiki/User:Adamstom.97" title="User:Adamstom.97">adamstom97</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Adamstom.97" title="User talk:Adamstom.97">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Adamstom.97-20241110220600-Meters-20241110214900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:06, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Adamstom.97-20241110220600-Meters-20241110214900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Adamstom.97-20241110220600-Meters-20241110214900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jason_Quinn-20241110221500-Adamstom.97-20241110220600"></span>I understand this is a guideline page. But my comment pertains to the wording of the sentence "Plot summaries for feature films should be between 400 and 700 words" itself, which does forbid summaries from being less than 400 words. Yes, you can use the "it's only guideline" rationale to override the wording, but I'm a big believer in saying what you mean and meaning what you say. Why burden editors with knowing the ins-and-outs of Wikipedia bureaucracy for them to know that it's okay for less than 400 words when we can just say it directly? <a href="/wiki/User:Jason_Quinn" title="User:Jason Quinn">Jason Quinn</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jason_Quinn" title="User talk:Jason Quinn">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Jason_Quinn-20241110221500-Adamstom.97-20241110220600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:15, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jason_Quinn-20241110221500-Adamstom.97-20241110220600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jason_Quinn-20241110221500-Adamstom.97-20241110220600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Notwally-20241110222200-Jason_Quinn-20241110221500"></span>The phrase "should be" is not a requirement or a prohibition. I think the current more concise wording is less confusing than the alternative proposal. – <a href="/wiki/User:Notwally" title="User:Notwally">notwally</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Notwally" title="User talk:Notwally">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-Notwally-20241110222200-Jason_Quinn-20241110221500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:22, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Notwally-20241110222200-Jason_Quinn-20241110221500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Notwally-20241110222200-Jason_Quinn-20241110221500"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-InfiniteNexus-20241116010000-Jason_Quinn-20241110221500"></span>The suggested word count is a recommendation, not a rule. <a href="/wiki/User:InfiniteNexus" title="User:InfiniteNexus">InfiniteNexus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:InfiniteNexus" title="User talk:InfiniteNexus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film#c-InfiniteNexus-20241116010000-Jason_Quinn-20241110221500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:00, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-InfiniteNexus-20241116010000-Jason_Quinn-20241110221500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-InfiniteNexus-20241116010000-Jason_Quinn-20241110221500"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film&oldid=1257653958">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film&oldid=1257653958</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-normal-catlinks" class="mw-normal-catlinks"><a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">Categories</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Project-Class_film_articles" title="Category:Project-Class film articles">Project-Class film articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_Film_articles" title="Category:WikiProject Film articles">WikiProject Film articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_Film_talk_pages" title="Category:WikiProject Film talk pages">WikiProject Film talk pages</a></li></ul></div></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 16 November 2024, at 01:00<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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