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Shelby shares outcomes from a national harassment and discrimination survey."><meta property="og:title" content="Impacts of Harassment and Discrimination on the Fire Service"><meta property="og:description" content="On this episode of The USFA Podcast, listen to Shelby Perket discuss the outcomes of her national survey on harassment and discrimination."><meta property="og:type" content="article"><meta property="og:site_name" content="U.S. Fire Administration"><meta property="og:url" content="https://www.usfa.fema.gov/podcasts/episode-35/"><meta property="og:image" content="https://www.usfa.fema.gov/img/photos/episode-35-1200w.jpg"><meta property="og:image:alt" content="EMT"><meta property="og:image:width" content="1200"><meta property="og:image:height" content="600"><meta name="twitter:card" content="summary_large_image"><meta name="twitter:image" content="https://www.usfa.fema.gov/img/photos/episode-35-1200w.jpg"><meta name="twitter:image:alt" content="EMT"><meta name="twitter:site" content="@usfire"><meta name="twitter:title" content="Impacts of Harassment and Discrimination on the Fire Service"><meta name="twitter:description" content="Learn the devastating effects of harassment and discrimination on the fire service."><link rel="canonical" href="https://www.usfa.fema.gov/podcasts/episode-35/"><link rel="stylesheet" href="/_css/index.min.css?cacheKey=c950a770-5956-4d5f-a340"><link rel="stylesheet" href="/_css/alacart/content/podcast-transcript.min.css?cacheKey=c950a770-5956-4d5f-a340"><title>Impacts of Harassment and Discrimination on the Fire Service</title></head><body class="podcasts"><div id="breakpoint"></div><div class="skippy visually-hidden-focusable overflow-hidden"><a href="#mainContent">Skip to main content</a></div><section id="usa" aria-label="Official website of the United States government"><div class="container-fluid bg-light py-1"><div class="accordion accordion-flush container" id="usGovBanner"><div class="accordion-item ms-md-4"><div class="accordion-header" id="usGovHeader"><button class="accordion-button bg-light collapsed micro p-1 d-flex flex-column flex-md-row justify-content-center justify-content-md-start text-center text-md-left" type="button" data-bs-toggle="collapse" data-bs-target="#usGov" aria-expanded="false" aria-controls="usGov"><img class="d-none d-md-block me-md-2" srcset="/img/core/usa-flag.96x52.png 3x, /img/core/usa-flag.48x26.png 2x, /img/core/usa-flag.24x13.png" src="/img/core/usa-flag.24x13.png" width="24" height="13" alt="" aria-hidden="true"> An official website of the United States government <span class="text-decoration-underline text-secondary ms-md-4 text-nowrap">Here's how you know</span></button></div><div id="usGov" class="accordion-collapse bg-light collapse" aria-labelledby="usGovHeader" data-bs-parent="#usGovBanner"><div class="accordion-body"><div class="row justify-content-start mt-3 mb-2 text-start"><div class="col-12 col-sm-6 col-lg-4 mb-3 mb-md-0 d-flex flex-row justify-content-start align-items-center"><div class="d-none d-md-block"><span class="fa-sharp fa-regular fa-building-columns fa-3x text-gray-500 me-4"></span></div><div><p class="mb-2"><strong>Official websites use .gov</strong></p><p class="balance-text small mb-0">A <strong>.gov</strong> website belongs to an official government organization in the United States.</p></div></div><div class="col-12 col-sm-6 col-lg-4 mb-3 mb-md-0 d-flex flex-row justify-content-start align-items-center"><div class="d-none d-md-block"><span class="fa-sharp fa-regular fa-shield-check fa-3x text-success opacity-70 me-4"></span></div><div><p class="mb-2"><strong>Secure .gov websites use <span class="initialism">HTTPS</span></strong></p><p class="balance-text small mb-0">A <strong>lock</strong> (<span class="fa-sharp fa-solid fa-lock"></span>) or <strong>https://</strong> means you've safely connected to the .gov website. 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class="list-group-item border-0 bg-danger text-white fw-bold"><a class="text-reset" href="/podcasts/"><span class="fa-sharp fa-solid fa-podcast"></span> PODCAST</a></li><li class="list-group-item border-0 bg-white">Episode 35</li></ul><div class="row"><div class="col-12 col-md-7 col-lg-12"><h1 id="skipnav" class="fw-bolder display-3 balance-text">Impacts of Harassment and Discrimination on the Fire Service</h1><p class="lead ms-0">On this episode of The USFA Podcast, we speak with Shelby Perket. Shelby shares outcomes from a national harassment and discrimination survey.</p><p class="fw-bolder">Posted: Nov. 21, 2024</p><ul id="shareBlock" class="list-inline my-4"><li class="list-inline-item mx-md-2">Share on:</li><li class="list-inline-item mx-md-2"><a href="https://x.com/intent/tweet?text=On this episode of The USFA Podcast, listen to Shelby Perket discuss the outcomes of her national survey on harassment and discrimination.&url=https://www.usfa.fema.gov/podcasts/episode-35/" aria-label="share this page on X"><span class="fa-brands fa-x-twitter fa-lg"></span></a></li><li class="list-inline-item mx-md-2"><a href="https://facebook.com/sharer/sharer.php?u=https://www.usfa.fema.gov/podcasts/episode-35/" aria-label="share this page on Facebook"><span class="fa-brands fa-facebook-f fa-lg"></span></a></li><li class="list-inline-item mx-md-2"><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/shareArticle?mini=true&url=https://www.usfa.fema.gov/podcasts/episode-35/" aria-label="share this page on LinkedIn"><span class="fa-brands fa-linkedin-in fa-lg"></span></a></li></ul><p class="fw-bold display-5 runt balance-text text-danger mb-4">Learn the devastating effects of harassment and discrimination on the fire service.</p></div><div class="d-none d-md-block col-md-5 d-lg-none"><div class="ratio ratio-1x1"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/img/photos/episode-35-sq-600w.webp 600w, /img/photos/episode-35-sq-900w.webp 900w, /img/photos/episode-35-sq-1200w.webp 1200w" sizes="(min-width: 30em) 100vw, 100vw"><source type="image/jpeg" srcset="/img/photos/episode-35-sq-600w.jpg 600w, /img/photos/episode-35-sq-900w.jpg 900w, /img/photos/episode-35-sq-1200w.jpg 1200w" sizes="(min-width: 30em) 100vw, 100vw"><img src="/img/photos/episode-35-sq-1200w.jpg" class="img-fluid shadow-lg" width="1200" height="600" alt="EMT"></picture></div></div></div><ul class="list-inline text-center text-sm-start mb-5"><li class="list-inline-item d-block d-sm-inline-block"><span class="fa-sharp fa-regular fa-tag"></span> Topics:</li><li class="list-inline-item"><a href="/podcasts/topics/leadership/">Leadership</a></li></ul><div><h2 class="h4 mb-3 d-inline-block text-nowrap">Listen online <span class="fw-normal fs-6"><span class="fa-sharp fa-regular fa-clock fa-sm"></span> 22:39</span></h2><figure class="mb-n1"><audio controls="" class="embed-responsive-item w-100" aria-describedby="podcast-episode-35"><source src="/podcasts/episode-35.mp3" type="audio/mpeg"><p class="small mt-3 text-end"><a href="/podcasts/episode-35.mp3">Download the MP3 file</a></p></audio></figure></div></div><div class="col-12 d-md-none d-lg-block col-lg-6 col-xl-5 order-1 mb-4 mb-lg-0"><div class="ratio ratio-1x1"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/img/photos/episode-35-sq-600w.webp 600w, /img/photos/episode-35-sq-900w.webp 900w, /img/photos/episode-35-sq-1200w.webp 1200w" sizes="(min-width: 30em) 100vw, 100vw"><source type="image/jpeg" srcset="/img/photos/episode-35-sq-600w.jpg 600w, /img/photos/episode-35-sq-900w.jpg 900w, /img/photos/episode-35-sq-1200w.jpg 1200w" sizes="(min-width: 30em) 100vw, 100vw"><img src="/img/photos/episode-35-sq-1200w.jpg" class="img-fluid shadow-lg" width="1200" height="600" alt="EMT"></picture></div></div></div></div></div></div><main id="mainContent"><section class="container"><div class="row justify-content-center"><div class="col-12 col-md-9 col-xl-7 mt-5"><article id="podcast-episode-35"><div class="d-flex flex-row align-items-baseline"><h2 class="h4 mb-4">Transcript</h2><p class="small mx-4"><span class="fa-sharp fa-regular fa-clock"></span> Estimated 16 min reading time.</p></div><div class="usfa"><div class="speaker">Teresa Neal</div><p>Welcome to the USFA Podcast, the official podcast of the U.S. Fire Administration. I'm your host, Teresa Neal. Women are significantly underrepresented in public safety professions, with the fire service having the lowest representation of women. According to our guest research, in 2018, women made up only 8% of the U.S. fire service, yet 55% of female firefighters have been assaulted or know someone who has been assaulted by their colleagues during their fire and EMS work. Our guest, Shelby Perket, was a volunteer and career firefighter before pursuing her degree of master's in physician assistant studies. As part of her education, she created an anonymous survey, Workplace Culture Standards of Interaction in Public Safety Professions.</p><p>The purpose of this survey and study was to evaluate the prevalence of harassment, discrimination and assault in the fire service; determine the factors that contribute to these workplace behaviors; and analyze gender differences in workers' perceptions of workplace culture. We have invited her to share the results of the study.</p><p>Welcome to the USFA Podcast, Shelby. Why did you create the survey?</p></div><div class="guest"><div class="speaker">Shelby Perket</div><p>Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, so I started beginning working in fire and EMS in 2017. At the time, I wasn't really sure that I wanted to do fire and EMS full time. I knew that I wanted to go to PA school, and I needed patient care hours to get into PA school.</p><p>And I always wanted to do EMS because my parents both worked in public safety growing up. So, I saw it as a perfect opportunity to be able to do both of those things. And shortly after starting, I absolutely fell in love with it. I love the EMS side of things. I started to love the fire side of things, and I ended up continuing my education while pursuing my undergraduate degree to get Fire 1, Fire 2, and then ultimately decided to take a break to get my paramedic license.</p><p>And at that point, I did make the decision that I wanted to work full time for a fire department for at least a while before going back to school. And right as I was finishing up paramedic school, I was offered a full-time job at one of the career departments in my area. And I was really excited to get started, but within days of starting this job, I found myself in a very incredibly toxic workplace.</p><p>And I was being treated differently than my male colleagues. And I knew shortly after starting that this was not an environment that I'd be able to succeed or grow in. Over time, I became scared to ask questions, I felt really unwelcomed every time I was there.</p><p>And I ultimately ended up resigning. And after I left, I was having a difficult time processing some of the things that I was going through. And James Small, who was on this podcast a couple months ago, convinced me to write about those experiences to help raise awareness and help other women feel less alone.</p><p>And at first, I was really hesitant. I knew that releasing something like this with my name on it would probably blacklist me from a lot of departments in the area because word travels fast, and people don't like that culture in their fire department, unfortunately. And I ended up deciding that if I was able to make an impact on at least 1 person that it would be worth it.</p><p>So, long story short, I started writing articles for FireRescue1 about harassment and discrimination and assault, but there wasn't a lot of data on that. It was more personal experiences and experiences that I've heard from others. So, ultimately, I decided to make my own survey and gather that data so that I could help raise awareness with numbers instead of personal experiences.</p></div><div class="usfa"><div class="speaker">Teresa Neal</div><p>Yeah, the findings were really interesting, and I know we're going to talk about them, but thank you for doing that, because I think this is a topic that needs to be discussed, definitely with how we treat women. But also, this is also a stumbling block for recruitment and retention, and that is a big issue within the fire service. So, tell me about the survey.</p></div><div class="guest"><div class="speaker">Shelby Perket</div><p>Yeah, so, I completed the survey as a senior in my undergraduate education. So, I was working closely with the University of Wisconsin Whitewater and a faculty member who worked in sociology. And, in order to distribute this study, it had to go through an IRB approval process. It wasn't like I just created this survey and distributed it.</p><p>It was a long process to get it up and running. But it was a short online survey, and it was intended to evaluate the presence of harassment, discrimination and assault in the fire service. I also included questions about workplace dynamics in the probationary period because I was curious to see the results of those as well.</p><p>Going into it, I knew that words like harassment, discrimination and assault had a negative connotation behind it, and I really wanted to try to stay away from having bias impact who was taking the survey. So, I tried to refrain from using those words, and I tried to use them towards the end of the survey so that it was less of a, I guess, turn off for people who didn't agree with what I was studying.</p><p>And I feel like that helped kind of legitimate the data a little bit more.</p></div><div class="usfa"><div class="speaker">Teresa Neal</div><p>So how many respondents did you get?</p></div><div class="guest"><div class="speaker">Shelby Perket</div><p>I was able to enroll 306. So, that ended up being 311 men, 87 women. And then there were 8 individuals who either preferred not to provide their gender or identified as other.</p></div><div class="usfa"><div class="speaker">Teresa Neal</div><p>And what were the key findings for workplace culture?</p></div><div class="guest"><div class="speaker">Shelby Perket</div><blockquote><p>I found that women were less likely to view their workplaces as diverse, believe their workplace had a well-known sexual harassment policy, believe there was a clear sense of inappropriate versus appropriate behaviors, and women felt less comfortable discussing tough incidents with their crews after returning from a call.</p></blockquote><p>On the flip side of that, women were more likely to believe that their female colleagues were treated differently than their male colleagues; feel that their gender, race, sexual orientation or age have prevented them from advancing their careers; and think that personnel conflicts within the agency is more stressful than the job itself.</p></div><div class="usfa"><div class="speaker">Teresa Neal</div><p>And what are some of the key findings for harassment, discrimination and assault?</p></div><div class="guest"><div class="speaker">Shelby Perket</div><p>So, I broke this section down into 5 separate yes and no statements with open-ended responses after each of them so that people were able to share their experiences with me. I thought this provided more context to the yes and no statements and allowed us to really see what was going on in firehouses across the nation.</p><p>The first statement that I asked was, "I feel comfortable reporting incidents of harassment and discrimination to my employer." 78% of people said yes to this, but when broken down by gender, only 54% of women said yes compared to 89% of men. So, men were far more confident and comfortable reporting these incidents as opposed to women.</p><p>The second thing I looked into was "I've reported sexual harassment or discrimination to my employer in the past." 25% of people said yes, so about a quarter of people who took the study have had an incident that they've needed to report throughout their fire and EMS career. And when I looked at that by gender, 45% of females said yes compared to 17% of men.</p><p>So, there was a big difference between women versus men responses in terms of having to report incidents of sexual harassment or discrimination. I then asked, "If you report an incident in the past, do you feel it was handled appropriately?" And 43% of people said yes. So, less than half of people who responded to this question felt like their report was handled appropriately after it was reported.</p><p>And when I looked at that by gender, only 25% of women felt that their reported incidents were handled appropriately compared to 63% of men.</p></div><div class="usfa"><div class="speaker">Teresa Neal</div><p>That's interesting because I wonder if it's a male-dominated culture there, you know. The men are going to feel like, okay, it was done, and we took care of it and was over.</p><p>But the women who — they just really couldn't even report it or felt comfortable enough explaining it to the extent that they should.</p></div><div class="guest"><div class="speaker">Shelby Perket</div><p>Right. That was a common concern that a lot of people had when reporting incidents, was being taken seriously or not being taken seriously when they reported things.</p><p>The fourth question that I looked at was, "Have you or someone you know ever experienced verbal harassment by a coworker while working in a public safety profession?" I was actually really surprised by this one because 83% of all people said yes to this question and there wasn't a statistically significant difference between male and female responses.</p><p>And I think this helps show that these behaviors have become normalized and commonplace in the fire service and has overall become well tolerated and that it doesn't really surprise anyone anymore. So, I think that was just kind of an eye-opening response for me.</p><p>The last question that I asked on the survey was, "Have you or someone you know ever been inappropriately touched by a colleague while working in a public safety profession?"</p><p>75 of the 311 people taking the survey said yes to this question. That means that 75 people were assaulted by their co-workers while at work. Heartbreaking.</p></div><div class="usfa"><div class="speaker">Teresa Neal</div><p>Yeah, exactly. Because how do you recover from that? You know what I mean? If you don't trust your colleagues, which in this situation, whether you're an EMT or a firefighter, you need to be able to feel like you can trust your colleagues.</p><p>I mean, you're trusting them with your life going in together. And after that trust is broken, I can see how people would be anxious about continuing.</p></div><div class="guest"><div class="speaker">Shelby Perket</div><p>Right, and that's a really important factor when it comes to employee safety. It impacts mental health. You're oftentimes staying the night in the same firehouse as the people that have assaulted you in the past, and it really puts women in an unsafe position going forward if it's not handled appropriately right away.</p><p>I think it can be really easy to overlook some of these numbers, especially without being able to see all of the graphs and all of the numbers. And I would really like to share some of the stories of real women who have taken a survey because they are not just a number, and these are real people, and these things are really happening in our firehouses. And I think it's important to share those.</p><p>So, one survey responder said, "A colleague of mine put his hands down the back of my pants during a medical call." Another one said, "During a training exercise, another member played the patient and pretended to be a dementia patient and was very handsy and inappropriately touching me. They claimed I needed to be ready to deal with that scenario. I felt they had no reason to act it out and it made me very uncomfortable and lose confidence in my team having my back."</p><p>"Years ago, as a firefighter and paramedic, I was pushed up against a table as a co-worker walked past me. He then put one hand on either side of me and proceeded to grind himself against my backside. There were other employees around who were completely astonished and didn't know what to say. So, no one said anything, and the man who did it made the comment of, well that was fun, was it good for you? I was mortified, violated and felt humiliated. No one said anything, but he was laughing, and then just walked away."</p><p>"I didn't do anything about it because I was part time and wanted full-time employment someday and didn't want to cause a stir. It bothers me to this day and still upsets me and has caused me some mental anguish. But I made it full time and moved up the ranks to deputy chief at another department."</p><p>"Still makes me angry and humiliated. Bottom line, had I reported it and made an issue of it, I'm very sure that I would not be in the position that I am today." This quote, I think, does a really good job of taking into consideration all of the important factors that are happening when people are reporting things and the fears that people have and why it's so difficult.</p><p>So, I'd like to reference that one again.</p></div><div class="usfa"><div class="speaker">Teresa Neal</div><p>The other thing about that is that nobody else said anything, which, you know, that kind of thing happens, but nobody said anything to him, but nobody even, from the comment, said anything to her and came up and said, hey, that was inappropriate. I'm with you if you want to go and you know, report this. I'll be right there with you. You know what I mean?</p><p>So, it wasn't like — not only was she hurt by the person who did it but those other people on the team that didn't either stand up for her or you know say something — or you know, out in front of everyone — or come to her later or right then say come on, let's go. Let's go report this. I'm here.</p><p>You know, you're alone. That makes you feel alone. And even, I'm sure, some of those people thought, oh, that's crazy, I can't believe that happened. But that culture it seems in the department, it's either — it's been able to happen so many times that it isn't stand out, or everybody's in fear and so nobody is reporting things because they're afraid of what will happen next.</p></div><div class="guest"><div class="speaker">Shelby Perket</div><p>Right. And I think part of that is a bystander effect too. You know, one person thinks that someone else will help her report it, or you know, maybe it's just better to not report it so we don't cause a stir with the crew. Things like that all play a factor, but it shouldn't, and it should have been handled immediately after it happened.</p><blockquote><p>Another thing that I found really surprising was that one person commented that at the International Association of Fire Fighters Center of Excellence in Maryland, every female I attended with had been inappropriately touched by a colleague. So, it's definitely prevalent. It's definitely happening. And I think there's enough data there to believe people when they bring it forward.</p></blockquote><p>They're not making it up. So, I think that's just one thing to keep in mind that the data is there. This is very common. And you shouldn't be surprised if that complaint comes across your desk as a fire chief.</p></div><div class="usfa"><div class="speaker">Teresa Neal</div><p>So, what are the key takeaways or common threads?</p></div><div class="guest"><div class="speaker">Shelby Perket</div><p>So, lack of confidentiality and fear of retaliation was something that was brought up a lot throughout the survey responses, and lack of confidentiality created an untrusting relationship between the department's administration and the person who was reporting the complaint. And breaching that confidentiality was reported by many of the survey takers, and it prevents future incidents from being reported, and it prevents your employees from trusting you as an administration.</p><p>An example of this was 1 person commented and said, after the incident, personnel in the field knew verbatim what was said in our confidentiality statements. There was no confidentiality. And side comments were made about throwing a brother under the bus, and the discrimination was overlooked with if you're too soft, then leave the field.</p><p>And I just think that's wrong, and it needs to change. Another thing that I thought was really prevalent was lack of accountability and action. 35 people commented on how they believe their reports are mishandled. And it wasn't uncommon for the perpetrator to be rewarded with future promotions while the victim was punished or pushed out of their jobs following inappropriate workplace behavior.</p><p>One person commented and said, "I have spoken with a trusted company officer who reported the incident. The offender was terminated, but the reporting party quit due to being uncomfortable in her work environment from reporting."</p><p>"In the past, I've reported incidents and was branded the loudmouth." Another female reported an incident; case was dismissed by HR. She was forced out, and the person accused became fire chief. And I've seen it happen, and it's happening. That's unfortunate. Another thing that I saw was barriers to reporting and length of investigations. So, my study found that some fire departments have restrictions on who employees can report incidents to, and this can create unfair barriers to reporting.</p><p>Oftentimes, the people participating in this behavior is people that are higher ranked on the fire department. So, putting limitations on who they can talk to can make it really difficult for people to feel comfortable reporting these things.</p></div><div class="usfa"><div class="speaker">Teresa Neal</div><p>Yeah, you can't go to the chief if the chief is the one that is doing it, or deputy chief.</p></div><div class="guest"><div class="speaker">Shelby Perket</div><p>Right, or the assistant chief's best friend who happens to be the deputy chief. You know, it gets complicated. So, having a trusted individual that you can go to and talk to, who then can help you come forward with those complaints, I think is important. And there shouldn't be a reason as why that would be inappropriate.</p><p>Length of reporting was also an issue that was found. These complaints should be taken seriously and should be investigated as soon as possible. It puts your employees in an unsafe position and potentially allows them to be further harassed or assaulted while at work. And not only that, when you're investigating these complaints, recollection of the incident will be way more accurate if you're investigating it right away, as opposed to 6 months from when it hits your desk.</p></div><div class="usfa"><div class="speaker">Teresa Neal</div><p>Yeah, definitely. Like in — I know for the government, you have 45 days to report, and they have to start acting on it within 30 for those exact same reasons that, you know, people start to forget, you could continue to be harassed or victimized. And so, there are times where it has to be, you have time frames where you have to act within a certain time frame, I mean, there are no excuses to not doing it.</p></div><div class="guest"><div class="speaker">Shelby Perket</div><p>Right. And I feel like that's a major limitation just from a national level too, in terms of people who need to report these incidents. If you've gone through something like this, your body's probably going through a trauma response on some level. And it takes time to process that and figure out how you want to handle it and navigate those internal conflicts.</p><p>And there's a limitation on it. At least in Wisconsin, where you have 300 days from the incident to report it and your department's taking a lot of time to handle it. Those 300 days come up really quickly and it makes it really difficult to resolve.</p></div><div class="usfa"><div class="speaker">Teresa Neal</div><p>So, what are some of the adverse health and safety impacts?</p></div><div class="guest"><div class="speaker">Shelby Perket</div><blockquote><p>So, chronic stress can lead to depression, insomnia, hypertension and cardiovascular disease. And individuals who have gone through things like this have been dealing with that on a personal level and probably do have high levels of stress, anxiety and depression when it comes to the incident, especially if it wasn't followed up appropriately by the administration.</p></blockquote><p>When you have chronic high levels of stress, it leads to exhaustion and reduced perception and focus. So, attention to your surrounding environment is minimalized and you're not able to think as quickly on your feet and react to high stressors like you need to when you're working in a fire or EMS profession.</p><p>So, there are serious life consequences to not only the person who's reporting, but also the crew members. And it can really be a life-or-death situation. With these incidences, the lack of trust in your crew members can put you in an unsafe position, both in the field and the fire. And it's difficult to go into a fire without knowing that your crew 100% has your back if something happened.</p><p>And I think that's another thing that we need to consider when we're talking about these things as well.</p></div><div class="usfa"><div class="speaker">Teresa Neal</div><p>So, you've also completed research on a probationary period. So, what were your key findings on that one?</p></div><div class="guest"><div class="speaker">Shelby Perket</div><p>Yeah, female participants were more likely to believe that their probationary members were isolated from their crews during their shifts.</p><p>They were more likely to admit to feeling anxious about returning to work based off how they were treated during their probationary period by their colleagues. And they were more likely to have thought about resigning during their probationary period compared to their male colleagues.</p><blockquote><p>29 people taking this study believed that if a probationary member cannot handle traditional hazing, they aren't meant to work in public safety. And 14% of people were neutral on the subject. So, it's something that we're still dealing with in terms of the traditional hazing, earning your spot at the table, things like that, that can make it difficult to be successful.</p></blockquote></div><div class="usfa"><div class="speaker">Teresa Neal</div><p>Which once again, I mean, I don't want to beat a dead horse, which also is one of those things about recruitment and retention.</p><p>When we talk about bringing in new people, different age groups into the fire service, I know Dr. Lori does a presentation about generational differences and being treated like that, I mean, that's not allowed in college.</p><p>It's not allowed in so many different areas so that we bring them into the fire service, and we treat them that way, the younger generations are going to be like, yeah, I'm not doing this. I'm not going to take it. The older generations might accept it to some extent, but bringing a new person in who has no concept about the fire service, no concept about all of this, and then be treated disrespectfully. No wonder people are leaving.</p></div><div class="guest"><div class="speaker">Shelby Perket</div><p>Right.</p><p>And that's one of my biggest recommendations for fire departments that are struggling with retention is take a look at your personnel, take a look at harassment and discrimination cases. Maybe they're not making it to the fire chief. Maybe the fire chief has no idea that this is happening because that's quite possible as well.</p><p>But it's a big factor that plays into retention and it's a major issue that we're having in the U.S.</p></div><div class="usfa"><div class="speaker">Teresa Neal</div><p>Yeah, it makes me think about, you mention Chief Small, that how he was talking about when, if somebody wanted to leave or even when he was doing performance reviews, you know, sitting down with the person and saying, okay, what can I do to help you to make you successful?</p><p>What can I do to help you to feel part of the team? That onus that we're taking for other people's feelings instead of just saying, well, they just couldn't hack it, you know, figuring out, is there something that we're doing that's making that happen?</p></div><div class="guest"><div class="speaker">Shelby Perket</div><p>Right. And I think that's another important part of human resources too. If you have a human resource person in your fire department, making sure that they're truly following up on those and truly making sure that they're being evaluated after this individual leaves and then somehow using that to improve your workplace.</p><p>I feel like it's easy after someone quits and leaves to just kind of brush it off and think it's no longer a problem.</p></div><div class="usfa"><div class="speaker">Teresa Neal</div><p>Or that it's their problem. It was, if they left, so it's their problem. If they were good for us, they would stay, but that's not really looking at it holistically.</p></div><div class="guest"><div class="speaker">Shelby Perket</div><p>Right. And if it was a problem for somebody else, it's probably going to be a problem for other people who are entering the department as well.</p></div><div class="usfa"><div class="speaker">Teresa Neal</div><p>So, is there anything else you would like to add?</p></div><div class="guest"><div class="speaker">Shelby Perket</div><p>Yeah, I think from a leadership standpoint, the data is there to show that if someone is coming to you with a concern, that they are probably telling the truth.</p><p>And as we've heard from the men and women who have taken this study, most people don't want to report these things. They feel embarrassed. They're uncomfortable. They feel they'll lose out on opportunities. So, it's difficult for someone to come forward and report these things. So, if they truly are coming to you with a concern, take them seriously and evaluate it. Because, like I said, the chances of them lying are so, so slim.</p><p>Even if it's been a couple months since the incident happened, it's still very likely true. And you should still take it as a complaint and fully investigate it to the best of your ability. I also just want to say that if you're listening and have gone through something similar, know that you're not alone and that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of other women who are going through similar things, and that there's always someone out there that you can reach out to. You can reach out to me; you can reach out to your colleagues, but you're not alone and people do believe you.</p></div><div class="usfa"><div class="speaker">Teresa Neal</div><p>Well, thank you, Shelby. I want to thank you for doing the survey. I know it's at risk for yourself too. You know, you said this is something that after your physician's assistant training, this isn't something that you wanted to pursue too.</p><p>And sometimes people think, oh no, like you said, there's the loudmouth who's calling attention to everything that's bad. But this is something that the fire service needs to look at. I mean the statistics I know is 311 people, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. There are so many people that have experienced this kind of thing and we need to understand what's happening and we need to address it as a fire service, not just as individual fire departments.</p><p>It is important. It's one of those issues that affects our recruitment and retention, which is a critical issue throughout the fire service. And so, it's something that we need to start looking into and really dealing with and dealing with those bad actors who continue to mess up. It needs to be addressed because we want to continue to recruit the right people and the best people.</p><p>And so, I just want to say thank you for listening to the USFA Podcast. And thank you to our guest Shelby Perket for joining us today. If you have a story or a guest idea, email the show at <a href="mailto:fema-usfapodcast@fema.dhs.gov">fema-usfapodcast@fema.dhs.gov</a> and you can learn more about USFA at usfa.fema.gov or search @usfire on social media. Until next month, stay safe.</p></div><div class="bg-secondary text-white p-3 p-xl-4 fw-light mt-5 shadow-lg text-center"><p class="fs-5"><span class="fa-sharp fa-solid fa-podcast fa-lg me-2"></span> Don’t forget to subscribe to our show on <a class="text-reset text-underline" rel="nofollow" href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-usfa-podcast/id1603699080">Apple</a> or <a class="text-reset text-underline" rel="nofollow" href="https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLY4OCtPEdj4p0ZVHOfo-ttzLXDO2qiQTv&si=7u-AbS-Jf9ezzwum">YouTube</a> Podcasts.</p><p class="mb-0 mx-auto mw-80 runt-0">We share our new episodes every third Thursday of the month. 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