Is delayed choice remote entanglement of photons derived from TDSE?

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2024 at 8:19 PM">Jul 6, 2024</time> </li> <li> <dl class="tagList tagList--thread-1064163 "> <dt> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-tags" aria-hidden="true" title="Tags"></i> <span class="u-srOnly">Tags</span> </dt> <dd> <span class="js-tagList"> <a href="/tags/delayed-choice/" data-xf-init="preview-tooltip" data-preview-url="/tags/delayed-choice/preview" class="tagItem tagItem--tag_delayed-choice" dir="auto"> Delayed choice </a> <a href="/tags/photon/" data-xf-init="preview-tooltip" data-preview-url="/tags/photon/preview" class="tagItem tagItem--tag_photon" dir="auto"> Photon </a> </span> </dd> </dl> </li> </ul> </div> </div> <script src="https://www.physicsforums.com/check-for-tex.js" defer></script> <div class="block block--messages" data-xf-init="" data-type="post" data-href="/inline-mod/" data-search-target="*"> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="posts"></span> <div class="block-outer"><div class="block-outer-main"> <nav class="pageNavWrapper pageNavWrapper--logarithmic pageNavWrapper--full " 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class="message-name"><a href="/members/drchinese.323/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="323" data-xf-init="member-tooltip">DrChinese</a></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>  <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>8,387</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>2,046</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102585" data-lb-caption-desc="DrChinese · Jul 6, 2024 at 8:19 PM"> <div class="message-fields message-fields--before"> <dl class="pairs pairs--columns pairs--fixedSmall pairs--customField" data-field="summary"> <dt>TL;DR Summary</dt> <dd>Is theory around Delayed Choice remote polarization entanglement swapping of photons derived from TDSE or TISE?</dd> </dl> </div> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div > <div class="bbWrapper">Is theory around Delayed Choice remote polarization entanglement swapping of photons derived from Time Dependent Schrodinger equation (TDSE) or Time Independent Schrodinger equation (TISE)? I say the answer is no. I collectively group TDSE and TISE under the umbrella SE. And the following experiments are for us to use to discuss regarding the state of the art in entanglement theory/experiment:<br /> <br /> A. <a href="https://arxiv.org/abs/0809.3991" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">High-fidelity entanglement swapping with fully independent sources</a><br /> Rainer Kaltenbaek, Robert Prevedel, Markus Aspelmeyer, Anton Zeilinger (2008)<br /> <i>Abstract: Entanglement swapping allows to establish entanglement between <b>independent particles that never interacted nor share any common past</b>. This feature makes it an integral constituent of quantum repeaters. Here, we demonstrate entanglement swapping with time-synchronized independent sources with a fidelity high enough to violate a Clauser-Horne-Shimony-Holt inequality by more than four standard deviations. The fact that both entangled pairs are created by fully independent, only electronically connected sources ensures that this technique is suitable for future long-distance quantum communication experiments as well as for novel tests on the foundations of quantum physics.</i><br /> <br /> B. <a href="https://arxiv.org/abs/1203.4834" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">Experimental delayed-choice entanglement swapping</a><br /> Xiao-song Ma, Stefan Zotter, Johannes Kofler, Rupert Ursin, Thomas Jennewein, Časlav Brukner, Anton Zeilinger (2012)<br /> <i>Abstract: Motivated by the question, which kind of physical interactions and processes are needed for the production of quantum entanglement, Peres has put forward the radical idea of delayed-choice entanglement swapping. There, entanglement can be "produced a posteriori, after the entangled particles have been measured and may no longer exist". In this work we report the first realization of Peres' gedanken experiment. Using four photons, we can actively delay the choice of measurement-implemented via a high-speed tunable bipartite state analyzer and a quantum random number generator-on two of the photons into the time-like future of the registration of the other two photons. This effectively projects the two already registered photons onto one definite of two mutually exclusive quantum states in which either the photons are entangled (quantum correlations) or separable (classical correlations). This can also be viewed as "quantum steering into the past".</i><br /> <br /> C. <a href="https://www.cs.rochester.edu/~cding/Teaching/573Spring2005/ur_only/GHZ-AJP90.pdf" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">Bell's Theorem Without Inequalities</a><br /> Daniel M. Greenberger; Michael A. Horne; Abner Shimony; Anton Zeilinger (1990)<br /> <i>Abstract: It is demonstrated that the premises of the Einstein–Podolsky–Rosen paper are inconsistent when applied to quantum systems consisting of at least three particles. The demonstration reveals that the EPR program contradicts quantum mechanics even for the cases of perfect correlations. By perfect correlations is meant arrangements by which the result of the measurement on one particle can be predicted with certainty given the outcomes of measurements on the other particles of the system. This incompatibility with quantum mechanics is stronger than the one previously revealed for two‐particle systems by Bell’s inequality, where no contradiction arises at the level of perfect correlations. Both spin‐correlation and multiparticle interferometry examples are given of suitable three‐ and four‐particle arrangements, both at the gedanken and at the real experiment level.</i><br /> <br /> I am not debating the importance of SE to QM. What I am saying is that modern entanglement theory requires additional theory that cannot be directly traced back to the SE. And I am using what I consider the farthest possible elements of modern entanglement theory to demonstrate how far away the SE is. Those elements being: <br /> <br /> i) Application of SE to polarization states of spin 1 photons; <br /> ii) Creation of entangled photons pairs via parametric down conversion; <br /> iii) Entanglement swapping by use of a Bell State Measurement (BSM) apparatus (requiring indistinguishable photon detections); <br /> iv) Polarization entangling photons from independent sources; <br /> v) Polarization entangling photons by a distant BSM operation; <br /> vi) Polarization entangling photons after they cease to exist; and<br /> vii) Creation of GHZ states (a bonus requirement). <br /> <br /> Basically, I am disputing there is any direct derivation or connection of any of these well known and well tested phenomena with the SE. And in fact, since most of these were discovered prior to 2000, I would ask for references that precede this date. Here is a chapter from a 2023 book, entirely about the SE, which contains a chapter on the SE for photons:<br /> <br /> <a href="https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/88162" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">A Schrödinger Equation for Light</a> (Daniel R.E. Hodgson)<br /> <br /> None of the above 7 items are discussed. However, there are numerous references to Maxwell's equations. Further, there are some basic derivations of an SE for the photon in his E25. That might count for i) above. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":smile:" title="Smile :smile:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":smile:" /><br /> <br /> But I don't think there exists pre-2000 references reasonably connecting the SE to the experimental results of references A, B or C above. I am asking for those. If the authors of my references were able to deduce everything in their papers from the earlier works using the SE, where are those references?<br /> <br /> For example: How do you get the 4 two-particle Bell states (with their Entangled polarization correlations) from the SE? That would be a good start. Bell didn't need anything like that in his 1964 paper: "<i>With the example advocated by Bohm and Aharonov [1957], the EPR argument [1935] is the following. Consider a pair of spin one-half particles formed somehow in the singlet spin state and moving freely in opposite directions. ... </i>" Presto, here's a Bell state, and no SE required.<br /> <br /> <hr /><br /> <i><b>So what is the point of even asking this question in the first place?</b></i> It has been argued by <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/197831/" class="username" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" data-user-id="197831" data-username="@PeterDonis">@PeterDonis</a> and others in <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/bell-violations-perfect-correlations-via-conservative-brownian-motion.1064068/" class="link link--internal">another thread</a> (and we have discussed off and on at various times) that any new interpretation that recreates the basic SE must naturally lead to predictions fully consistent with all existing entanglement experiments - <i>without any need to explain how</i>. That deduction doesn't really follow, because the entire point of a novel interpretation is to ADD "something" to existing canon in the way of explanation. Maybe that novel explanation itself contradicts an experiment! It should be clear that in the year 2000, the SE had long been left behind as a basis for most entanglement research. Things like quantum nonlocality (remote entanglement swapping) and quantum causality (delayed choice) have no practical analog in the various forms of the SE. So I'm not sure how anyone can make the proposed leap that I am criticizing. <br /> <br /> So if someone wants to put forth a new interpretation of QM, to add to an already overloaded list, they at least better address my 3 references. Because you cannot dismiss the incredible theoretical advances of the past 30+ years as being an "obvious" derivation of the SE. And in fact, the SE is not mentioned in any of these references. You really wouldn't expect it too, either, as the well-discussed limitations of the SE as it can be applied to the photon does not naturally lead to the usual Bell states and their quantum nonlocality in the first place.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> <div class="googleads_fixed"> <script async src="https://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/js/adsbygoogle.js?client=ca-pub-6580726045122001" crossorigin="anonymous"></script>  <ins class="adsbygoogle" style="display:block" data-ad-client="ca-pub-6580726045122001" data-ad-slot="3049969336" data-ad-format="auto" data-full-width-responsive="true"></ins> <script> (adsbygoogle = window.adsbygoogle || []).push({}); </script> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <div class="message-cell message-cell--main" id="post-physorg"> <a href="https://phys.org/physics-news/" target="_blank">Physics news</a> on Phys.org <ul class="phys_items"> <li><a href="https://phys.org/news/2025-02-pressure-driven-phase-transition-simultaneous.html" target="_blank">Pressure-driven phase transition induces simultaneous negative photoconductivity and superconductivity</a></li> <li><a href="https://phys.org/news/2025-02-wheel-fortune-fundamental-proof-quantum.html" target="_blank">Researchers spin 'wheel of fortune' to find a fundamental proof of quantum mechanics</a></li> <li><a href="https://phys.org/news/2025-02-physicists-amorphous-solids-stability.html" target="_blank">Physicists model how amorphous solids lose their stability</a></li> </ul> </div> <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="PeterDonis" data-content="post-7102586" id="js-post-7102586" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102586/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102586"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-06T20:43:02-0500" data-time="1720316582" data-date-string="Jul 6, 2024" data-time-string="8:43 PM" title="Jul 6, 2024 at 8:43 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 6, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102586/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #2 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/peterdonis.197831/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="197831" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span class="username--staff username--moderator" itemprop="name">PeterDonis</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-mentor" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="PF Community Staff"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-user-graduate" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Mentor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/PeterDonis/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>47,868</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>24,120</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102586" data-lb-caption-desc="PeterDonis · Jul 6, 2024 at 8:43 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 323" data-quote="DrChinese" data-source="post: 7102585" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> DrChinese said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> Is theory around Delayed Choice remote polarization entanglement swapping of photons derived from Time Dependent Schrodinger equation (TDSE) or Time Independent Schrodinger equation (TISE)? </div> </div> </blockquote>You have put this thread in the interpretations subforum, but this question is not really an interpretation question; it's a straightforward mathematical question of what standard QM predicts. What interpretation aspect are you intending to discuss?</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="PeterDonis" data-content="post-7102587" id="js-post-7102587" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102587/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102587"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-06T20:44:23-0500" data-time="1720316663" data-date-string="Jul 6, 2024" data-time-string="8:44 PM" title="Jul 6, 2024 at 8:44 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 6, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102587/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #3 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/peterdonis.197831/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="197831" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span class="username--staff username--moderator" itemprop="name">PeterDonis</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-mentor" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="PF Community Staff"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-user-graduate" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Mentor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/PeterDonis/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>47,868</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>24,120</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102587" data-lb-caption-desc="PeterDonis · Jul 6, 2024 at 8:44 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 323" data-quote="DrChinese" data-source="post: 7102585" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> DrChinese said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> modern entanglement theory requires additional theory that cannot be directly traced back to the SE. </div> </div> </blockquote>What additional theory are you talking about? (And again, this does not seem to be an interpretation question. Either standard QM makes correct predictions about these experiments, or it doesn't.)</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> <div class="googleads_fixed"> <script async src="https://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/js/adsbygoogle.js?client=ca-pub-6580726045122001" crossorigin="anonymous"></script>  <ins class="adsbygoogle" style="display:block" data-ad-client="ca-pub-6580726045122001" data-ad-slot="5961342082" data-ad-format="auto" data-full-width-responsive="true"></ins> <script> (adsbygoogle = window.adsbygoogle || []).push({}); </script> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="1" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList is-active"> <ul class="reactionSummary"> <li><span class="reaction 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message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-06T20:58:03-0500" data-time="1720317483" data-date-string="Jul 6, 2024" data-time-string="8:58 PM" title="Jul 6, 2024 at 8:58 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 6, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102590/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #4 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/peterdonis.197831/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="197831" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span class="username--staff username--moderator" itemprop="name">PeterDonis</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-mentor" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="PF Community Staff"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-user-graduate" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Mentor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/PeterDonis/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>47,868</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>24,120</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102590" data-lb-caption-desc="PeterDonis · Jul 6, 2024 at 8:58 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 323" data-quote="DrChinese" data-source="post: 7102585" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> DrChinese said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> i) Application of SE to polarization states of spin 1 photons;<br /> ii) Creation of entangled photons pairs via parametric down conversion;<br /> iii) Entanglement swapping by use of a Bell State Measurement (BSM) apparatus (requiring indistinguishable photon detections);<br /> iv) Polarization entangling photons from independent sources;<br /> v) Polarization entangling photons by a distant BSM operation;<br /> vi) Polarization entangling photons after they cease to exist; and<br /> vii) Creation of GHZ states (a bonus requirement). </div> </div> </blockquote>If this is your answer to the question I posed in #3, I don't see that it is a good one.<br /> <br /> For purposes of these experiments, the only aspect of photon polarizations that is relevant is that they lie in the same Hilbert space as qubits, i.e., the spin-1/2 Hilbert space. Non-relativistic QM and the SE handles this just fine. All the complexities involved with photon <i>propagation</i> through space are irrelevant, because in these experiments the spatial paths followed by the photons are determined by the experimenters and are not allowed to vary in ways that would involve any of those complexities. And all the complexities involved with photons <i>interacting</i> with matter are also irrelevant, because they are buried in the details of the photon preparation processes and the photon detectors and don't affect the aspects that are significant for things like entanglement swapping. As far as analyzing entanglement swapping goes, you can treat the preparations and the detections as black boxes.<br /> <br /> And once you have that as a basis, all of the items you list are accounted for the same way you would account for them if the experiments were done with electrons or neutrons or other massive spin-1/2 particles for which non-relativistic QM and the SE are already known to work. And the results would have all of the same counterintuitive features that make these experiments such a challenge for alternative models, for reasons which I posted in the other thread you reference, and which you agreed with. In other words, the aspects that are actually significant for discussing the counterintuitive aspects are completely "orthogonal", if you will, to the aspects that make photons different from massive spin-1/2 particles. The latter aspects can safely be ignored when analyzing the counterintuitive aspects.<br /> <br /> In short, I simply do not see the fact that photons are used in these experiments as a problem for analyzing them using non-relativistic QM and the SE. Sure, if you want to get into the gory details of how to justify using the non-relativistic approximation for photons under these conditions, you're going to have to get into the weeds of QFT--but nobody disputes that <i>that</i> can be done either. The physicists who are actually doing these experiments don't appear to view this as an issue at all. In some papers they explicitly write down non-relativistic photon wave functions. (To be fair, there are also some papers that use a QFT framework and write down occupation numbers of Fock states. But that seems to be more a matter of personal preference than anything else.)</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="1" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList is-active"> <ul class="reactionSummary"> <li><span class="reaction reaction--small reaction--1" data-reaction-id="1"><i aria-hidden="true"></i><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="reaction-sprite js-reaction" alt="Like" title="Like" /></span></li> </ul> <span class="u-srOnly">Likes</span> <bdi>mattt</bdi> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="PeterDonis" data-content="post-7102591" id="js-post-7102591" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102591/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102591"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-06T20:59:50-0500" data-time="1720317590" data-date-string="Jul 6, 2024" data-time-string="8:59 PM" title="Jul 6, 2024 at 8:59 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 6, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102591/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #5 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/peterdonis.197831/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="197831" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span class="username--staff username--moderator" itemprop="name">PeterDonis</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-mentor" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="PF Community Staff"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-user-graduate" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Mentor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/PeterDonis/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>47,868</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>24,120</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102591" data-lb-caption-desc="PeterDonis · Jul 6, 2024 at 8:59 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 323" data-quote="DrChinese" data-source="post: 7102585" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> DrChinese said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> if someone wants to put forth a new interpretation of QM </div> </div> </blockquote>Overriding the SE is not putting forth a new interpretation of QM. It would be a different theory from standard QM. Or at least standard non-relativistic QM.<br /> <br /> If what you actually mean is that you think the relativistic aspects that require QFT to capture are significant, that, in itself, would not be a change to standard QM, but I think you need to make an argument for that claim. That doesn't seem to be what you are claiming, though.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="1" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList is-active"> <ul class="reactionSummary"> <li><span class="reaction reaction--small reaction--1" data-reaction-id="1"><i aria-hidden="true"></i><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="reaction-sprite js-reaction" alt="Like" title="Like" /></span></li> </ul> <span class="u-srOnly">Likes</span> <bdi>Dale</bdi> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="PeterDonis" data-content="post-7102593" id="js-post-7102593" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102593/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102593"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-06T21:00:05-0500" data-time="1720317605" data-date-string="Jul 6, 2024" data-time-string="9:00 PM" title="Jul 6, 2024 at 9:00 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 6, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102593/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #6 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/peterdonis.197831/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="197831" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span class="username--staff username--moderator" itemprop="name">PeterDonis</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-mentor" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="PF Community Staff"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-user-graduate" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Mentor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/PeterDonis/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>47,868</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>24,120</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102593" data-lb-caption-desc="PeterDonis · Jul 6, 2024 at 9:00 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 323" data-quote="DrChinese" data-source="post: 7102585" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> DrChinese said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> the well-discussed limitations of the SE as it can be applied to the photon does not naturally lead to the usual Bell states and their quantum nonlocality in the first place. </div> </div> </blockquote>Do you have a reference for this claim?</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="DrChinese" data-content="post-7102596" id="js-post-7102596" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102596/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102596"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-06T21:07:25-0500" data-time="1720318045" data-date-string="Jul 6, 2024" data-time-string="9:07 PM" title="Jul 6, 2024 at 9:07 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 6, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102596/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #7 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/drchinese.323/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="323" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">DrChinese</span></a></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>  <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>8,387</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>2,046</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102596" data-lb-caption-desc="DrChinese · Jul 6, 2024 at 9:07 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 197831" data-quote="PeterDonis" data-source="post: 7102593" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> PeterDonis said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> Do you have a reference for this claim? </div> </div> </blockquote>You do a great job of turning things around! I'm the one asking for references!! No matter how I ask, all I ever see is self-quotes. And by the way, I already provided a reference for what I said, from a recent textbook exclusively on the SE.<br /> <br /> <a href="https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/88162" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">A Schrödinger Equation for Light</a> (Daniel R.E. Hodgson)<br /> <br /> <blockquote data-attributes="member: 197831" data-quote="PeterDonis" data-source="post: 7102586" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> PeterDonis said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> You have put this thread in the interpretations subforum, but this question is not really an interpretation question; it's a straightforward mathematical question of what standard QM predicts. What interpretation aspect are you intending to discuss? </div> </div> </blockquote><br /> I'm perfectly fine with it being in the main QM area.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="PeterDonis" data-content="post-7102597" id="js-post-7102597" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102597/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102597"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-06T21:09:02-0500" data-time="1720318142" data-date-string="Jul 6, 2024" data-time-string="9:09 PM" title="Jul 6, 2024 at 9:09 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 6, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102597/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #8 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/peterdonis.197831/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="197831" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span class="username--staff username--moderator" itemprop="name">PeterDonis</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-mentor" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="PF Community Staff"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-user-graduate" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Mentor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/PeterDonis/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>47,868</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>24,120</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102597" data-lb-caption-desc="PeterDonis · Jul 6, 2024 at 9:09 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 323" data-quote="DrChinese" data-source="post: 7102596" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> DrChinese said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> I'm perfectly fine with it being in the main QM area. </div> </div> </blockquote>Ok. I have moved it. Please note that that makes interpretation discussions off topic for this thread: the topic is whether standard non-relativistic QM can be used to derive delayed choice entanglement swapping with photons.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="PeterDonis" data-content="post-7102598" id="js-post-7102598" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102598/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102598"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-06T21:10:13-0500" data-time="1720318213" data-date-string="Jul 6, 2024" data-time-string="9:10 PM" title="Jul 6, 2024 at 9:10 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 6, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102598/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #9 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/peterdonis.197831/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="197831" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span class="username--staff username--moderator" itemprop="name">PeterDonis</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-mentor" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="PF Community Staff"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-user-graduate" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Mentor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/PeterDonis/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>47,868</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>24,120</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102598" data-lb-caption-desc="PeterDonis · Jul 6, 2024 at 9:10 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 323" data-quote="DrChinese" data-source="post: 7102596" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> DrChinese said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> I'm the one asking for references!! </div> </div> </blockquote>You made a specific claim; I'll quote it again:<br /> <br /> <blockquote data-attributes="member: 323" data-quote="DrChinese" data-source="post: 7102585" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> DrChinese said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> the well-discussed limitations of the SE as it can be applied to the photon does not naturally lead to the usual Bell states and their quantum nonlocality in the first place. </div> </div> </blockquote>This amounts to the claim that the answer to the title question of this thread is "no". That's not asking for references for other people's answers to the question. That's giving <i>your</i> answer to the question, for which <i>you</i> need to provide a reference.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="DrChinese" data-content="post-7102599" id="js-post-7102599" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102599/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102599"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-06T21:13:00-0500" data-time="1720318380" data-date-string="Jul 6, 2024" data-time-string="9:13 PM" title="Jul 6, 2024 at 9:13 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 6, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102599/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #10 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/drchinese.323/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="323" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">DrChinese</span></a></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>  <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>8,387</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>2,046</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102599" data-lb-caption-desc="DrChinese · Jul 6, 2024 at 9:13 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper">I'll say it again: GHZ was not derived from the SE. Quantum teleportation was not discovered because of the SE. And delayed choice was not discovered because of the SE. None of these have the slightest to do with SE, other than they are all a part of standard garden variety QM, no QFT required. <br /> <br /> ANY new interpretation MUST be able to address modern entanglement theory and experiment. There is absolutely nothing controversial about this point. And in fact, all EXISTING interpretations must do the same! This is basic scientific method, and applies in all areas of science.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="PeterDonis" data-content="post-7102600" id="js-post-7102600" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102600/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102600"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-06T21:13:15-0500" data-time="1720318395" data-date-string="Jul 6, 2024" data-time-string="9:13 PM" title="Jul 6, 2024 at 9:13 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 6, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102600/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #11 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/peterdonis.197831/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="197831" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span class="username--staff username--moderator" itemprop="name">PeterDonis</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-mentor" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="PF Community Staff"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-user-graduate" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Mentor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/PeterDonis/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>47,868</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>24,120</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102600" data-lb-caption-desc="PeterDonis · Jul 6, 2024 at 9:13 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 323" data-quote="DrChinese" data-source="post: 7102596" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> DrChinese said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> I already provided a reference for what I said </div> </div> </blockquote>As far as I can tell from the abstract, that references says you <i>can</i> treat photons using the Schrodinger Equation.<br /> <br /> In any case, the topic of this thread is not the general question of treating photons using the SE. It is treating photons using the SE in one specific case: delayed choice entanglement swapping. As far as I know nobody has claimed that this specific scenario involves any relativistic effects, so the non-relativistic approximation should be fine. Certainly, as I have already posted, it would seem fine if we were doing the experiment with electrons or neutrons or other massive spin-1/2 particles.<br /> <br /> So let me ask you another question: suppose someone did a delayed choice entanglement swapping experiment with massive spin-1/2 particles. Would you still be challenging them to provide a derivation of the results using the SE?</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="DrChinese" data-content="post-7102603" id="js-post-7102603" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102603/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102603"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-06T21:25:12-0500" data-time="1720319112" data-date-string="Jul 6, 2024" data-time-string="9:25 PM" title="Jul 6, 2024 at 9:25 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 6, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102603/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #12 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/drchinese.323/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="323" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">DrChinese</span></a></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>  <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>8,387</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>2,046</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102603" data-lb-caption-desc="DrChinese · Jul 6, 2024 at 9:25 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 197831" data-quote="PeterDonis" data-source="post: 7102600" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> PeterDonis said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> As far as I can tell from the abstract, that references says you <i>can</i> treat photons using the Schrodinger Equation.<br /> <br /> In any case, the topic of this thread is not the general question of treating photons using the SE. It is treating photons using the SE in one specific case: delayed choice entanglement swapping. As far as I know nobody has claimed that this specific scenario involves any relativistic effects, so the non-relativistic approximation should be fine. Certainly, as I have already posted, it would seem fine if we were doing the experiment with electrons or neutrons or other massive spin-1/2 particles.<br /> <br /> So let me ask you another question: suppose someone did a delayed choice entanglement swapping experiment with massive spin-1/2 particles. Would you still be challenging them to provide a derivation of the results using the SE? </div> </div> </blockquote><br /> You can perform entanglement swapping with spin 1/2 systems (Hensen et al). But the answer to your question is "no" because you have it backwards. I am not asking anyone to explain well known and accepted theory using the SE. SE has little or nothing to do with delayed choice entanglement swapping. You get this from modern entanglement theory, a la Shimony, Zeilinger, Gisin and a great many others.<br /> <br /> If someone says, "I can explain A with the SE, but I assume my explanation also works for B and C", then of course their assumption is immediately suspect. Ask the GHZS authors (citation C above) if they would agree that any explanation using the SE had anything to do with their discovery. They would wonder what you were talking about. Ditto for the discovery of remote entanglement swapping. Ask Wheeler (hypothetical of course) about delayed choice concepts and the SE. Again, he'd wonder what you were talking about. <br /> <br /> And for the Nth time: can anybody provide a direct quote that fits my request?</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="DrChinese" data-content="post-7102604" id="js-post-7102604" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102604/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102604"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-06T21:28:28-0500" data-time="1720319308" data-date-string="Jul 6, 2024" data-time-string="9:28 PM" title="Jul 6, 2024 at 9:28 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 6, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102604/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #13 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/drchinese.323/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="323" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">DrChinese</span></a></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>  <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>8,387</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>2,046</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102604" data-lb-caption-desc="DrChinese · Jul 6, 2024 at 9:28 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 197831" data-quote="PeterDonis" data-source="post: 7102597" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> PeterDonis said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> Ok. I have moved it. Please note that that makes interpretation discussions off topic for this thread: the topic is whether standard non-relativistic QM can be used to derive delayed choice entanglement swapping with photons. </div> </div> </blockquote>That is not my question at all. Please re-read the title.<br /> <br /> The question is whether the SE can be used to derive remote delayed choice entanglement swapping with photons, also GHZ. I am the one saying that standard non-relativistic QM can be used to derive those. SE being a portion of QM, but not normally a relevant tool for modern entanglement experiments.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="DrChinese" data-content="post-7102605" id="js-post-7102605" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102605/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102605"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-06T21:30:35-0500" data-time="1720319435" data-date-string="Jul 6, 2024" data-time-string="9:30 PM" title="Jul 6, 2024 at 9:30 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 6, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102605/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #14 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/drchinese.323/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="323" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">DrChinese</span></a></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>  <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>8,387</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>2,046</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102605" data-lb-caption-desc="DrChinese · Jul 6, 2024 at 9:30 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 197831" data-quote="PeterDonis" data-source="post: 7102600" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> PeterDonis said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> As far as I can tell from the abstract, that references says you <i>can</i> treat photons using the Schrodinger Equation. </div> </div> </blockquote>Not for the experiments I cited it doesn't. And that is precisely my point.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="PeterDonis" data-content="post-7102608" id="js-post-7102608" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102608/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102608"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-06T21:42:43-0500" data-time="1720320163" data-date-string="Jul 6, 2024" data-time-string="9:42 PM" title="Jul 6, 2024 at 9:42 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 6, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102608/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #15 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/peterdonis.197831/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="197831" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span class="username--staff username--moderator" itemprop="name">PeterDonis</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-mentor" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="PF Community Staff"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-user-graduate" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Mentor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/PeterDonis/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>47,868</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>24,120</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102608" data-lb-caption-desc="PeterDonis · Jul 6, 2024 at 9:42 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 323" data-quote="DrChinese" data-source="post: 7102603" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> DrChinese said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> SE has little or nothing to do with delayed choice entanglement swapping. </div> </div> </blockquote>I don't understand this claim. The SE is the dynamical equation for non-relativistic QM. <i>Any</i> QM prediction in the non-relativistic domain has to do with the SE. If you believe the contrary, I would really like to have you explain why, or give me a reference that explains why.<br /> <br /> <blockquote data-attributes="member: 323" data-quote="DrChinese" data-source="post: 7102603" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> DrChinese said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> modern entanglement theory </div> </div> </blockquote>Is there a standard reference for this? Can you give it?<br /> <br /> <blockquote data-attributes="member: 323" data-quote="DrChinese" data-source="post: 7102603" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> DrChinese said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> can anybody provide a direct quote that fits my request? </div> </div> </blockquote>I am unable to even comprehend your position at this point. To me you appear to be saying that entanglement swapping can't be predicted by non-relativistic QM. I know you deny this is the case, but your denial is based on the claim that "modern entanglement theory", even though it is within the non-relativistic domain, doesn't rely on the SE. Which is also a claim I am unable to comprehend. So I can't possibly provide what you are asking for since I don't even understand it.<br /> <br /> If you can give me some reference that explains why "modern entanglement theory", even though it is within the non-relativistic domain, somehow does not rely on the SE, that would help.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="1" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList is-active"> <ul class="reactionSummary"> <li><span class="reaction reaction--small reaction--1" data-reaction-id="1"><i aria-hidden="true"></i><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="reaction-sprite js-reaction" alt="Like" title="Like" /></span></li> </ul> <span class="u-srOnly">Likes</span> <bdi>mattt</bdi> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="PeterDonis" data-content="post-7102610" id="js-post-7102610" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102610/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102610"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-06T21:54:25-0500" data-time="1720320865" data-date-string="Jul 6, 2024" data-time-string="9:54 PM" title="Jul 6, 2024 at 9:54 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 6, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102610/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #16 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/peterdonis.197831/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="197831" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span class="username--staff username--moderator" itemprop="name">PeterDonis</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-mentor" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="PF Community Staff"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-user-graduate" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Mentor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/PeterDonis/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>47,868</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>24,120</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102610" data-lb-caption-desc="PeterDonis · Jul 6, 2024 at 9:54 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 323" data-quote="DrChinese" data-source="post: 7102585" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> DrChinese said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> How do you get the 4 two-particle Bell states (with their Entangled polarization correlations) from the SE? </div> </div> </blockquote>You <i>prepare</i> them in one of those states. The SE is a dynamical equation; it assumes an initial state that you prepare. That doesn't mean you aren't relying on the SE for the dynamics.<br /> <br /> If you want to model the preparation process itself, you just take two un-entangled particles and subject them to an appropriate interaction Hamiltonian. Or, to look at it another way, you find a unitary operation that entangles them, and express it as ##U = \exp(i H t)##; ##H## is then your interaction Hamiltonian. Similar remarks would apply to operations like the beam splitter that does the entanglement swap. None of that means you aren't relying on the SE; you're just dealing with a situation where the non-trivial unitary operations happen over very short time scales (i.,e., the non-trivial interaction Hamiltonians are only "turned on" for very short times), so the time evolution looks very different from the textbook cases of the SE.<br /> <br /> If this is really the crux of the issue here, I think we might be talking past each other. You say you agree that standard non-relativistic QM can account for the results. That's really the main point that matters. Whether or not you like describing standard non-relativistic QM as "relying on the SE" or not is a matter of words, not physics.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="DrChinese" data-content="post-7102624" id="js-post-7102624" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102624/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102624"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-06T23:44:27-0500" data-time="1720327467" data-date-string="Jul 6, 2024" data-time-string="11:44 PM" title="Jul 6, 2024 at 11:44 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 6, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102624/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #17 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/drchinese.323/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="323" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">DrChinese</span></a></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>  <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>8,387</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>2,046</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102624" data-lb-caption-desc="DrChinese · Jul 6, 2024 at 11:44 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper">Modern entanglement theory: entanglement swapping, GHZ, etc. There are thousands of experiments and theory papers in this general area. <br /> <br /> SE: a tool to do a job, like a hammer is a tool. SE is not QM, and vice versa. SE is not a tool generally used in papers on entanglement. Instead, think of that canon as the screwdriver tool. Use the right tool for the right job.<br /> <br /> All interpretations of QM must be able to account for entanglement experiments. What's there to contest about that statement. I have called for references from anyone who thinks the hammer can do the job of the screwdriver. If you can show me those, we're good. But I can't provide you proof that the hammer can't do the job of the screwdriver, because the craftsmen all know which tool to pull out already. The SE was first presented in 1926. Pretty obvious that hammer isn't going to do the job forever.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="PeterDonis" data-content="post-7102625" id="js-post-7102625" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102625/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102625"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-06T23:45:44-0500" data-time="1720327544" data-date-string="Jul 6, 2024" data-time-string="11:45 PM" title="Jul 6, 2024 at 11:45 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 6, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102625/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #18 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/peterdonis.197831/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="197831" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span class="username--staff username--moderator" itemprop="name">PeterDonis</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-mentor" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="PF Community Staff"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-user-graduate" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Mentor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/PeterDonis/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>47,868</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>24,120</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102625" data-lb-caption-desc="PeterDonis · Jul 6, 2024 at 11:45 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 323" data-quote="DrChinese" data-source="post: 7102624" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> DrChinese said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> All interpretations of QM must be able to account for entanglement experiments. </div> </div> </blockquote>True, but irrelevant to this thread, since we've moved it out of the interpretations subforum.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="PeterDonis" data-content="post-7102626" id="js-post-7102626" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102626/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102626"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-06T23:47:40-0500" data-time="1720327660" data-date-string="Jul 6, 2024" data-time-string="11:47 PM" title="Jul 6, 2024 at 11:47 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 6, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102626/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #19 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/peterdonis.197831/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="197831" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span class="username--staff username--moderator" itemprop="name">PeterDonis</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-mentor" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="PF Community Staff"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-user-graduate" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Mentor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/PeterDonis/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>47,868</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>24,120</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102626" data-lb-caption-desc="PeterDonis · Jul 6, 2024 at 11:47 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 323" data-quote="DrChinese" data-source="post: 7102624" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> DrChinese said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> Modern entanglement theory: entanglement swapping, GHZ, etc. There are thousands of experiments and theory papers in this general area. </div> </div> </blockquote>Ok, fine, but I don't have time to read thousands of papers. Is there a standard reference that explains what this thing is and how it doesn't rely on the SE?<br /> <br /> <blockquote data-attributes="member: 323" data-quote="DrChinese" data-source="post: 7102624" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> DrChinese said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> I can't provide you proof that the hammer can't do the job of the screwdriver </div> </div> </blockquote>I didn't ask for "proof". I asked for a reference that explains what the heck the screwdriver is in the first place. The only references I've read all talk about the hammer. I haven't seen any reference that talks about the screwdriver that isn't a hammer.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="Demystifier" data-content="post-7102628" id="js-post-7102628" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102628/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102628"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-06T23:51:26-0500" data-time="1720327886" data-date-string="Jul 6, 2024" data-time-string="11:51 PM" title="Jul 6, 2024 at 11:51 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 6, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102628/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #20 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/demystifier.61953/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/demystifier.61953/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/demystifier.61953/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="61953" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">Demystifier</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/Demystifier/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>14,428</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>6,931</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102628" data-lb-caption-desc="Demystifier · Jul 6, 2024 at 11:51 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper">Entanglement (of photons) is a consequence of superposition principle in the multi-partite Hilbert space. The multi-partite Hilbert space is (a part of) Hilbert space on which the Hamiltonian ##H## of QED acts. The superposition principle is a consequence of the linearity of the Schrodinger equation with the QED Hamiltonian ##H##. Hence entanglement can be explained by TDSE. The fact that some aspects are discussed with Maxwell equations rather than with TDSE just means that some aspects are discussed in the Heisenberg picture rather than the Schrodinger one. But the two pictures are equivalent (at least formally, up to Haag-theorem-like subtleties).</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> <div class="message-lastEdit"> Last edited: <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-08T11:38:53-0500" data-time="1720456733" data-date-string="Jul 8, 2024" data-time-string="11:38 AM" title="Jul 8, 2024 at 11:38 AM" itemprop="dateModified">Jul 8, 2024</time> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="2" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList is-active"> <ul class="reactionSummary"> <li><span class="reaction reaction--small reaction--1" data-reaction-id="1"><i aria-hidden="true"></i><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="reaction-sprite js-reaction" alt="Like" title="Like" /></span></li> </ul> <span class="u-srOnly">Likes</span> <bdi>mattt</bdi> and <bdi>PeterDonis</bdi> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="DrChinese" data-content="post-7102629" id="js-post-7102629" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102629/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102629"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-07T00:00:56-0500" data-time="1720328456" data-date-string="Jul 7, 2024" data-time-string="12:00 AM" title="Jul 7, 2024 at 12:00 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 7, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102629/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #21 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/drchinese.323/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="323" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">DrChinese</span></a></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>  <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>8,387</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>2,046</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102629" data-lb-caption-desc="DrChinese · Jul 7, 2024 at 12:00 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 197831" data-quote="PeterDonis" data-source="post: 7102610" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> PeterDonis said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> A. You <i>prepare</i> them in one of those states. The SE is a dynamical equation...<br /> <br /> B. If this is really the crux of the issue here, I think we might be talking past each other. You say you agree that standard non-relativistic QM can account for the results. That's really the main point that matters. Whether or not you like describing standard non-relativistic QM as "relying on the SE" or not is a matter of words, not physics. </div> </div> </blockquote>A. Again, you have it backwards. We can read any entanglement swapping paper to see how the experiment is performed. We can also read the theory they rely upon. The SE isn't mentioned. Ever.<br /> <br /> B. Of course we are talking past each other, you haven't read the title of the thread or what I have requested. Of course we agree "standard non-relativistic QM can account for the results" and I have said that over and over. The SE, as a tool, is not an important element of modern entanglement theory or experiment. And by modern, I mean the work of the last 30 years or so.<br /> <br /> If anyone has a reference that says something to the effect that: application of the SE led to the discovery of entanglement swapping... then please, share that. <br /> <br /> You, Peter, claim that it (SE) is a critical element of these developments - the theory around modern entanglement - and I deny it. Having read a thousand papers at least on the subject, I have never seen it mentioned. But who knows, maybe I missed it and you didn't. Certainly by now you know how many references I have on various sides of entanglement. So... instead of asking me to cite more references (which I already had), why don't you back up a single claim you make with a matching reference?<br /> <br /> Or perhaps acknowledge that ALL QM interpretations SHOULD be able to account for a relevant set of modern entanglement experiments. That is what I am really saying (since you don't want to discuss particular interpretations in this forum). Certainly the most amazing of those experiments, those worth of a Nobel. If we were discussing modern cosmology, we would expect new theory to account for existing phenomena - including the latest results. Well, that applies here in QM too.<br /> <br /> Hey, but if I'm wrong, I'm happy to learn something new. That's what I'm here for. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":smile:" title="Smile :smile:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":smile:" /></div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="PeterDonis" data-content="post-7102630" id="js-post-7102630" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102630/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102630"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-07T00:06:14-0500" data-time="1720328774" data-date-string="Jul 7, 2024" data-time-string="12:06 AM" title="Jul 7, 2024 at 12:06 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 7, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102630/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #22 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/peterdonis.197831/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="197831" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span class="username--staff username--moderator" itemprop="name">PeterDonis</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-mentor" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="PF Community Staff"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-user-graduate" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Mentor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/PeterDonis/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>47,868</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>24,120</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102630" data-lb-caption-desc="PeterDonis · Jul 7, 2024 at 12:06 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 323" data-quote="DrChinese" data-source="post: 7102629" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> DrChinese said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> We can read any entanglement swapping paper to see how the experiment is performed. </div> </div> </blockquote>Sure.<br /> <br /> <blockquote data-attributes="member: 323" data-quote="DrChinese" data-source="post: 7102629" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> DrChinese said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> We can also read the theory they rely upon. </div> </div> </blockquote>Not that I can see. I've read the experimental papers you linked to in the OP. There is no theory in them, if by "theory" we mean actually <i>deriving</i> anything from the general principles of QM. There are just states written down that are pulled out of the air, and it is simply assumed that the experimental operations being performed take this state to that other state.<br /> <br /> If we can read the theory they rely upon somewhere else, then please tell me where.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="DrChinese" data-content="post-7102631" id="js-post-7102631" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102631/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102631"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-07T00:06:24-0500" data-time="1720328784" data-date-string="Jul 7, 2024" data-time-string="12:06 AM" title="Jul 7, 2024 at 12:06 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 7, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102631/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #23 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/drchinese.323/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="323" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">DrChinese</span></a></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>  <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>8,387</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>2,046</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102631" data-lb-caption-desc="DrChinese · Jul 7, 2024 at 12:06 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 61953" data-quote="Demystifier" data-source="post: 7102628" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> Demystifier said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> Entanglement (of photons) is a consequence of superposition principle in the multi-partite Hilbert space. The multi-partite Hilbert space is (a part of) Hilbert space on which the Hamiltonian ##H## of QED acts. The superposition principle is a consequence of the linearity of the Schrodinger equation with the QED Hamiltonian ##H##. Hence entanglement can be explained by TISE. The fact that some aspects are discussed with Maxwell equations rather than with TISE just means that some aspects are discussed in the Heisenberg picture rather than the Schrodinger one. But the two pictures are equivalent (at least formally, up to Haag-theorem-like subtleties). </div> </div> </blockquote>A leads to B, B leads to C, C leads to D... Yes I get all that. You may as well say the addition is responsible for modern entanglement theory. There is always a precursor. In this case: Delayed Choice Entanglement Swapping in 2012, SE from 1926. Maxwell even earlier. Come on. <br /> <br /> We aren't supposed to discuss any particular interpretation in this thread (since it was moved at <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/197831/" class="username" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" data-user-id="197831" data-username="@PeterDonis">@PeterDonis</a> request). But even Bohmian theory must be able to account for the experiments I reference in the OP, wouldn't you agree? Since all should be held to the same strict scientific standards...</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="PeterDonis" data-content="post-7102632" id="js-post-7102632" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102632/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102632"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-07T00:09:31-0500" data-time="1720328971" data-date-string="Jul 7, 2024" data-time-string="12:09 AM" title="Jul 7, 2024 at 12:09 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 7, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102632/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #24 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/peterdonis.197831/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="197831" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span class="username--staff username--moderator" itemprop="name">PeterDonis</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-mentor" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="PF Community Staff"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-user-graduate" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Mentor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/PeterDonis/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>47,868</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>24,120</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102632" data-lb-caption-desc="PeterDonis · Jul 7, 2024 at 12:09 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 323" data-quote="DrChinese" data-source="post: 7102631" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> DrChinese said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> it was moved at <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/197831/" class="username" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" data-user-id="197831" data-username="@PeterDonis">@PeterDonis</a> request </div> </div> </blockquote>No, it was moved because of the response you gave in post #7. I did not request that it be moved; I asked <i>you</i>, the OP, what the thread was supposed to be about. If it's supposed to be about a specific interpretation, I'll move it back to the interpretations subforum.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="DrChinese" data-content="post-7102633" id="js-post-7102633" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102633/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102633"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-07T00:10:30-0500" data-time="1720329030" data-date-string="Jul 7, 2024" data-time-string="12:10 AM" title="Jul 7, 2024 at 12:10 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 7, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102633/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #25 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/drchinese.323/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="323" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">DrChinese</span></a></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>  <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>8,387</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>2,046</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102633" data-lb-caption-desc="DrChinese · Jul 7, 2024 at 12:10 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 197831" data-quote="PeterDonis" data-source="post: 7102630" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> PeterDonis said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> If we can read the theory they rely upon somewhere else, then please tell me where. </div> </div> </blockquote>Funny, they provided a full list of references. So maybe start there. <br /> <br /> And somehow, one of the authors eekked out a Nobel from that work. So I kinda guess that makes it generally accepted science now. And no one is doubting where they got their theory from, being as the references they provide are all ground-breaking works themselves.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="DrChinese" data-content="post-7102634" id="js-post-7102634" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102634/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102634"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-07T00:12:19-0500" data-time="1720329139" data-date-string="Jul 7, 2024" data-time-string="12:12 AM" title="Jul 7, 2024 at 12:12 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 7, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102634/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #26 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/drchinese.323/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="323" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">DrChinese</span></a></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>  <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>8,387</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>2,046</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102634" data-lb-caption-desc="DrChinese · Jul 7, 2024 at 12:12 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 197831" data-quote="PeterDonis" data-source="post: 7102632" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> PeterDonis said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> No, it was moved because of the response you gave in post #7. I did not request that it be moved; I asked <i>you</i>, the OP, what the thread was supposed to be about. If it's supposed to be about a specific interpretation, I'll move it back to the interpretations subforum. </div> </div> </blockquote>I trust you to know where this best belongs. I placed it in Interpretations because I thought that was perhaps a better audience. However, it is not about any particular interpretation. What I assert applies to all.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="PeterDonis" data-content="post-7102635" id="js-post-7102635" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102635/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102635"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-07T00:16:53-0500" data-time="1720329413" data-date-string="Jul 7, 2024" data-time-string="12:16 AM" title="Jul 7, 2024 at 12:16 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 7, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102635/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #27 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/peterdonis.197831/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="197831" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span class="username--staff username--moderator" itemprop="name">PeterDonis</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-mentor" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="PF Community Staff"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-user-graduate" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Mentor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/PeterDonis/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>47,868</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>24,120</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102635" data-lb-caption-desc="PeterDonis · Jul 7, 2024 at 12:16 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 323" data-quote="DrChinese" data-source="post: 7102633" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> DrChinese said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> they provided a full list of references. So maybe start there. </div> </div> </blockquote>Sigh. If you're going to claim that there is this theoretical area called "modern entanglement theory", that does non-relativistic QM without using the SE, it would seem to me that the least you could do would be to provide some kind of standard reference for this claimed theoretical area instead of just pointing me at a list of, by my count, 55 references, 48 of which (all but the first in the first paper) don't even have titles provided so I can't even do a quick check to see if they're likely to be relevant. All the more so as I can go into QM textbooks published a lot more recently than 1926 and still find entanglement treated in the standard way using the SE.<br /> <br /> If you can't point me at some kind of standard reference for this "modern entanglement theory" that doesn't rely on the SE, I'm just going to bow out of this thread.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="PeterDonis" data-content="post-7102636" id="js-post-7102636" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102636/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102636"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-07T00:17:05-0500" data-time="1720329425" data-date-string="Jul 7, 2024" data-time-string="12:17 AM" title="Jul 7, 2024 at 12:17 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 7, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102636/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #28 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/peterdonis.197831/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="197831" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span class="username--staff username--moderator" itemprop="name">PeterDonis</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-mentor" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="PF Community Staff"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-user-graduate" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Mentor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/PeterDonis/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>47,868</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>24,120</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102636" data-lb-caption-desc="PeterDonis · Jul 7, 2024 at 12:17 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 323" data-quote="DrChinese" data-source="post: 7102634" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> DrChinese said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> it is not about any particular interpretation. What I assert applies to all. </div> </div> </blockquote>Then it belongs here.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="PeterDonis" data-content="post-7102637" id="js-post-7102637" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102637/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102637"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-07T00:18:31-0500" data-time="1720329511" data-date-string="Jul 7, 2024" data-time-string="12:18 AM" title="Jul 7, 2024 at 12:18 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 7, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102637/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #29 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/peterdonis.197831/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="197831" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span class="username--staff username--moderator" itemprop="name">PeterDonis</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-mentor" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="PF Community Staff"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-user-graduate" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Mentor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/PeterDonis/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>47,868</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>24,120</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102637" data-lb-caption-desc="PeterDonis · Jul 7, 2024 at 12:18 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 323" data-quote="DrChinese" data-source="post: 7102633" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> DrChinese said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> one of the authors eekked out a Nobel from that work. So I kinda guess that makes it generally accepted science now </div> </div> </blockquote>The fact that delayed choice entanglement swapping is an experimentally demonstrated phenomenon is indeed "generally accepted science".<br /> <br /> That, however, does not establish that your claim that there is this thing called "modern entanglement theory" that does non-relativistic QM without using the SE is "generally accepted science".</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="1" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList is-active"> <ul class="reactionSummary"> <li><span class="reaction reaction--small reaction--1" data-reaction-id="1"><i aria-hidden="true"></i><img 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<time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-07T11:19:12-0500" data-time="1720369152" data-date-string="Jul 7, 2024" data-time-string="11:19 AM" title="Jul 7, 2024 at 11:19 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 7, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102720/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #30 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/demystifier.61953/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/demystifier.61953/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/demystifier.61953/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="61953" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">Demystifier</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/Demystifier/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>14,428</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>6,931</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102720" data-lb-caption-desc="Demystifier · Jul 7, 2024 at 11:19 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 323" data-quote="DrChinese" data-source="post: 7102629" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> DrChinese said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> We can read any entanglement swapping paper to see how the experiment is performed. We can also read the theory they rely upon. The SE isn't mentioned. Ever. </div> </div> </blockquote>But SE is implicitly there, it doesn't need to be mentioned explicitly. For instance, whenever a paper refers to measurement, it is understood that the system <b>interacts</b> with the measuring apparatus, due to which the state of the system+apparatus <b>changes</b>. This interaction and change are described by the TDSE, even if this is not mentioned explicitly because it is understood that the reader should already know that.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> <div class="message-lastEdit"> Last edited: <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-08T11:39:26-0500" data-time="1720456766" data-date-string="Jul 8, 2024" data-time-string="11:39 AM" title="Jul 8, 2024 at 11:39 AM" itemprop="dateModified">Jul 8, 2024</time> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="3" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList is-active"> <ul class="reactionSummary"> <li><span class="reaction reaction--small reaction--1" data-reaction-id="1"><i aria-hidden="true"></i><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="reaction-sprite js-reaction" alt="Like" title="Like" /></span></li> </ul> <span class="u-srOnly">Likes</span> <bdi>Doc Al</bdi>, <bdi>mattt</bdi> and <bdi>PeterDonis</bdi> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="DrChinese" data-content="post-7102724" id="js-post-7102724" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102724/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102724"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-07T11:41:51-0500" data-time="1720370511" data-date-string="Jul 7, 2024" data-time-string="11:41 AM" title="Jul 7, 2024 at 11:41 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 7, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102724/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #31 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/drchinese.323/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="323" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">DrChinese</span></a></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>  <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>8,387</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>2,046</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102724" data-lb-caption-desc="DrChinese · Jul 7, 2024 at 11:41 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 197831" data-quote="PeterDonis" data-source="post: 7102635" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> PeterDonis said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> A. All the more so as I can go into QM textbooks published a lot more recently than 1926 and still find entanglement treated in the standard way using the SE.<br /> <br /> B. If you can't point me at some kind of standard reference for this "modern entanglement theory" that doesn't rely on the SE, I'm just going to bow out of this thread. </div> </div> </blockquote>A. That's what I've requested: Something between 1926 and 2000 that uses the toolkit of the SE to describe/deduce/derive entanglement swapping, GHZ, and/or delayed choice.<br /> <br /> B. I can assure you, the references from my references don't mention the SE. SE as a calculational tool is just a part of non-relativistic QM, so that shouldn't be a surprise. So to point out, per your request for a standard reference: Here is the very first appearance of the GHZ theorem, which contains no references whatsoever to the SE. In fact, it only has 4 references. <br /> <br /> <a href="https://arxiv.org/abs/0712.0921" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">Going Beyond Bell's Theorem (the link is a 2007 reprint.)</a><br /> Daniel M. Greenberger, Michael A. Horne, Anton Zeilinger (1989)<br /> <br /> Its references:<br /> 1. A. Einstein, B. Podolsky, and N. Rosen, (1935) Phys. Rev., 47, 777.<br /> 2. N. Bohr, (1935) Phys. Rev., 48, 696.<br /> 3. D. Bohm, (1951) “Quantum Theory”, Prentice-Hall, New York.<br /> 4. J.S. Bell, (1965) Physics (N.Y.) 1, 195.<br /> <br /> Note that reference 3 is a textbook that does include a discussion of the SE, among numerous other topics in non-relativistic QM. But the only thing taken from that reference is an entangled wave function: ψ = ( |↑↓> − |↓↑> ) / 2. That was about all that existed in entanglement theory in 1951. SE is not a part of this.<br /> <br /> I could provide the same for the other seminal theoretical papers on modern entanglement theory, such as: Bell's Theorem (1964), Quantum Teleportation (1993), Bell Tests Enforcing Strict Einsteinian Locality (1998), Peres' Delayed Choice Entanglement Swapping (1999). All of these published prior to 2000, so they have been around over 25 years. This canon should be familiar to anyone who studies entanglement. None have the SE at their core, other than it's all part of standard QM.<br /> <br /> As I mention, these concepts must be satisfactorily explained by any and all interpretations of QM, and just saying "it's equivalent to standard QM" won't suffice. This is new theory and experiment, and raises the bar.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="Demystifier" data-content="post-7102726" id="js-post-7102726" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102726/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102726"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-07T11:47:12-0500" data-time="1720370832" data-date-string="Jul 7, 2024" data-time-string="11:47 AM" title="Jul 7, 2024 at 11:47 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 7, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102726/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #32 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/demystifier.61953/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/demystifier.61953/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/demystifier.61953/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="61953" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">Demystifier</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/Demystifier/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> <div class="post-badge 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class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 323" data-quote="DrChinese" data-source="post: 7102724" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> DrChinese said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> None have the SE at their core, other than it's all part of standard QM. </div> </div> </blockquote>SE is so deep in their core that you don't even see it.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="2" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList is-active"> <ul class="reactionSummary"> <li><span class="reaction reaction--small reaction--1" data-reaction-id="1"><i aria-hidden="true"></i><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="reaction-sprite js-reaction" alt="Like" title="Like" /></span></li> </ul> <span class="u-srOnly">Likes</span> <bdi>mattt</bdi> and <bdi>PeterDonis</bdi> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="DrChinese" data-content="post-7102730" id="js-post-7102730" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102730/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102730"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-07T12:16:32-0500" data-time="1720372592" data-date-string="Jul 7, 2024" data-time-string="12:16 PM" title="Jul 7, 2024 at 12:16 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 7, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102730/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #33 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/drchinese.323/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="323" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">DrChinese</span></a></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>  <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>8,387</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>2,046</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102730" data-lb-caption-desc="DrChinese · Jul 7, 2024 at 12:16 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 61953" data-quote="Demystifier" data-source="post: 7102726" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> Demystifier said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> SE is so deep in their core that you don't even see it. </div> </div> </blockquote>This is circular reasoning. The SE is <i>not </i>being used to develop new theory. The new theory I mention has nothing particular to do with the SE. Why pick the SE to hang your hat on in the first place? What about the Born rule, or any of a dozen other major foundational components of QM? Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle? Is that the cornerstone of modern entanglement theory too?<br /> <br /> The obvious objection one might have is: <i>One's preferred interpretation cannot reasonably address these modern developments...</i> and so one must fall back on tired arguments to keep it on the table. Marrying one's interpretation to reasoning from nearly a century ago, without updating for new developments, is a perversion of the scientific method. That was why EPR ultimately failed - it worked until new developments came along that were not envisioned until 30 years later.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="PeterDonis" data-content="post-7102749" id="js-post-7102749" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102749/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102749"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-07T13:21:36-0500" data-time="1720376496" data-date-string="Jul 7, 2024" data-time-string="1:21 PM" title="Jul 7, 2024 at 1:21 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 7, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102749/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #34 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/peterdonis.197831/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/peterdonis.197831/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="197831" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span class="username--staff username--moderator" itemprop="name">PeterDonis</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-mentor" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="PF Community Staff"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-user-graduate" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Mentor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/PeterDonis/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>47,868</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>24,120</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102749" data-lb-caption-desc="PeterDonis · Jul 7, 2024 at 1:21 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 323" data-quote="DrChinese" data-source="post: 7102724" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> DrChinese said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> Here is the very first appearance of the GHZ theorem, which contains no references whatsoever to the SE. </div> </div> </blockquote>That's because the GHZ theorem, Bell's theorem, etc. <i>have nothing to do with QM</i>. They aren't even <i>about</i> QM. They are about ruling out particular kinds of models that <i>aren't</i> QM. Of course they aren't going to talk about the SE because the alternative models they are ruling out have nothing to do with the SE. That is no argument that QM doesn't use the SE when it deals with entangled wave functions.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="1" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList is-active"> <ul class="reactionSummary"> <li><span class="reaction reaction--small reaction--1" data-reaction-id="1"><i aria-hidden="true"></i><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="reaction-sprite js-reaction" alt="Like" title="Like" /></span></li> </ul> <span class="u-srOnly">Likes</span> <bdi>mattt</bdi> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="DrChinese" data-content="post-7102761" id="js-post-7102761" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7102761/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7102761"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-07-07T13:55:22-0500" data-time="1720378522" data-date-string="Jul 7, 2024" data-time-string="1:55 PM" title="Jul 7, 2024 at 1:55 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jul 7, 2024</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7102761/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #35 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/drchinese.323/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="323" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">DrChinese</span></a></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>  <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>8,387</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>2,046</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7102761" data-lb-caption-desc="DrChinese · Jul 7, 2024 at 1:55 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 197831" data-quote="PeterDonis" data-source="post: 7102749" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> PeterDonis said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> That's because the GHZ theorem, Bell's theorem, etc. <i>have nothing to do with QM</i>. They aren't even <i>about</i> QM. They are about ruling out particular kinds of models that <i>aren't</i> QM. Of course they aren't going to talk about the SE because the alternative models they are ruling out have nothing to do with the SE. </div> </div> </blockquote>This news would be quite a shock to a lot of scientists, who believe they are at the forefront of Quantum Mechanics research.<br /> <br /> Bell: Makes a specific quantum mechanical prediction that was previously unknown.<br /> GHZ: Makes a specific quantum mechanical prediction that was previously unknown.<br /> Entanglement swapping: Makes a specific quantum mechanical prediction that was previously unknown.<br /> Monogamy of Entanglement: Makes a specific quantum mechanical prediction that was previously unknown.<br /> Delayed Choice: Makes a specific quantum mechanical prediction that was previously unknown.<br /> <br /> Each of the related papers make specific predictions about QM. Those predictions happen to rule out theories that cannot keep up, true, but they represent giant leaps in our understanding of QM. That is in fact the precise objective of all scientific work, theory and experiment interplaying to advance science. Older interpretations, along with newer ones, need to pass these stringent tests to remain viable. Or be moved to the graveyard that also contains all those ol' Local Realistic interpretations.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article> </div> </div> <div class="block-outer block-outer--after"> <div class="block-outer-main"> <nav class="pageNavWrapper pageNavWrapper--logarithmic pageNavWrapper--full " data-block-size="1" data-last-page="2"> <div class="pageNav"> <ul class="pageNav-main"> <li class="pageNav-page pageNav-page--current "><a 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<div class="structItem-title"> <span class="prefix inter" dir="auto">I</span> <a href="/threads/kims-1999-delayed-choice-quantum-eraser-experiment.970907/" class="" data-tp-primary="on" data-xf-init="preview-tooltip" data-preview-url="/threads/kims-1999-delayed-choice-quantum-eraser-experiment.970907/preview">Kim's 1999 delayed-choice quantum eraser experiment</a> </div> <div class="structItem-minor"> <ul class="structItem-parts"> <li class="structItem-startDate"><time class="structItem-latestDate u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2019-04-29T12:21:06-0500" data-time="1556558466" data-date-string="Apr 29, 2019" data-time-string="12:21 PM" title="Apr 29, 2019 at 12:21 PM">Apr 29, 2019</time></li>  </ul> <ul class="structItem-parts"> </ul> </div> </div> <div class="structItem-cell structItem-cell--meta" title="First message reaction score: 0"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt>Replies</dt> <dd>23</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified structItem-minor"> <dt>Views</dt> <dd>3K</dd> 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Are you sure you want to submit this form?", attach: "Attach files", rich_text_box: "Rich text box", close: "Close", link_copied_to_clipboard: "Link copied to clipboard.", text_copied_to_clipboard: "Text copied to clipboard.", loading: "Loading…", you_have_exceeded_maximum_number_of_selectable_items: "You have exceeded the maximum number of selectable items.", processing: "Processing", 'processing...': "Processing…", showing_x_of_y_items: "Showing {count} of {total} items", showing_all_items: "Showing all items", no_items_to_display: "No items to display", number_button_up: "Increase", number_button_down: "Decrease", push_enable_notification_title: "Push notifications enabled successfully at Physics Forums: Science Discussion, Homework Help, Articles", push_enable_notification_body: "Thank you for enabling push notifications!", pull_down_to_refresh: "Pull down to refresh", release_to_refresh: "Release to refresh", refreshing: "Refreshing…" }); </script> <form style="display:none" hidden="hidden"> <input type="text" name="_xfClientLoadTime" value="" id="_xfClientLoadTime" title="_xfClientLoadTime" tabindex="-1" /> </form>  <script type="application/ld+json"> { "@context": "https://schema.org", "@type": "WebPage", "url": "https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/", "mainEntity": { "@type": "DiscussionForumPosting", "@id": "https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/", "headline": "Is delayed choice remote entanglement of photons derived from TDSE?", "datePublished": "2024-07-07T01:19:02+00:00", "keywords": "Delayed choice, Photon", "url": "https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-delayed-choice-remote-entanglement-of-photons-derived-from-tdse.1064163/", "articleSection": "Quantum Physics", "author": { "@type": "Person", "@id": "https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/", "name": "DrChinese", "url": "https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drchinese.323/" }, "interactionStatistic": [ { "@type": "InteractionCounter", "interactionType": "https://schema.org/ViewAction", "userInteractionCount": 3143 }, { "@type": "InteractionCounter", "interactionType": "https://schema.org/CommentAction", "userInteractionCount": 58 }, { "@type": "InteractionCounter", "interactionType": "https://schema.org/LikeAction", "userInteractionCount": 0 } ], "articleBody": "Is theory around Delayed Choice remote polarization entanglement swapping of photons derived from Time Dependent Schrodinger equation (TDSE) or Time Independent Schrodinger equation (TISE)? I say the answer is no. I collectively group TDSE and TISE under the umbrella SE. And the following experiments are for us to use to discuss regarding the state of the art in entanglement theory/experiment:\n\nA. High-fidelity entanglement swapping with fully independent sources\nRainer Kaltenbaek, Robert Prevedel, Markus Aspelmeyer, Anton Zeilinger (2008)\nAbstract: Entanglement swapping allows to establish entanglement between independent particles that never interacted nor share any common past. This feature makes it an integral constituent of quantum repeaters. Here, we demonstrate entanglement swapping with time-synchronized independent sources with a fidelity high enough to violate a Clauser-Horne-Shimony-Holt inequality by more than four standard deviations. The fact that both entangled pairs are created by fully independent, only electronically connected sources ensures that this technique is suitable for future long-distance quantum communication experiments as well as for novel tests on the foundations of quantum physics.\n\nB. Experimental delayed-choice entanglement swapping\nXiao-song Ma, Stefan Zotter, Johannes Kofler, Rupert Ursin, Thomas Jennewein, \u010caslav Brukner, Anton Zeilinger (2012)\nAbstract: Motivated by the question, which kind of physical interactions and processes are needed for the production of quantum entanglement, Peres has put forward the radical idea of delayed-choice entanglement swapping. There, entanglement can be \"produced a posteriori, after the entangled particles have been measured and may no longer exist\". In this work we report the first realization of Peres' gedanken experiment. Using four photons, we can actively delay the choice of measurement-implemented via a high-speed tunable bipartite state analyzer and a quantum random number generator-on two of the photons into the time-like future of the registration of the other two photons. This effectively projects the two already registered photons onto one definite of two mutually exclusive quantum states in which either the photons are entangled (quantum correlations) or separable (classical correlations). This can also be viewed as \"quantum steering into the past\".\n\nC. Bell's Theorem Without Inequalities\nDaniel M. Greenberger; Michael A. Horne; Abner Shimony; Anton Zeilinger (1990)\nAbstract: It is demonstrated that the premises of the Einstein\u2013Podolsky\u2013Rosen paper are inconsistent when applied to quantum systems consisting of at least three particles. The demonstration reveals that the EPR program contradicts quantum mechanics even for the cases of perfect correlations. By perfect correlations is meant arrangements by which the result of the measurement on one particle can be predicted with certainty given the outcomes of measurements on the other particles of the system. This incompatibility with quantum mechanics is stronger than the one previously revealed for two\u2010particle systems by Bell\u2019s inequality, where no contradiction arises at the level of perfect correlations. Both spin\u2010correlation and multiparticle interferometry examples are given of suitable three\u2010 and four\u2010particle arrangements, both at the gedanken and at the real experiment level.\n\nI am not debating the importance of SE to QM. What I am saying is that modern entanglement theory requires additional theory that cannot be directly traced back to the SE. And I am using what I consider the farthest possible elements of modern entanglement theory to demonstrate how far away the SE is. Those elements being: \n\ni) Application of SE to polarization states of spin 1 photons; \nii) Creation of entangled photons pairs via parametric down conversion; \niii) Entanglement swapping by use of a Bell State Measurement (BSM) apparatus (requiring indistinguishable photon detections); \niv) Polarization entangling photons from independent sources; \nv) Polarization entangling photons by a distant BSM operation; \nvi) Polarization entangling photons after they cease to exist; and\nvii) Creation of GHZ states (a bonus requirement). \n\nBasically, I am disputing there is any direct derivation or connection of any of these well known and well tested phenomena with the SE. And in fact, since most of these were discovered prior to 2000, I would ask for references that precede this date. Here is a chapter from a 2023 book, entirely about the SE, which contains a chapter on the SE for photons:\n\nA Schr\u00f6dinger Equation for Light (Daniel R.E. Hodgson)\n\nNone of the above 7 items are discussed. However, there are numerous references to Maxwell's equations. Further, there are some basic derivations of an SE for the photon in his E25. That might count for i) above. :smile:\n\nBut I don't think there exists pre-2000 references reasonably connecting the SE to the experimental results of references A, B or C above. I am asking for those. If the authors of my references were able to deduce everything in their papers from the earlier works using the SE, where are those references?\n\nFor example: How do you get the 4 two-particle Bell states (with their Entangled polarization correlations) from the SE? That would be a good start. Bell didn't need anything like that in his 1964 paper: \"With the example advocated by Bohm and Aharonov [1957], the EPR argument [1935] is the following. Consider a pair of spin one-half particles formed somehow in the singlet spin state and moving freely in opposite directions. ... \" Presto, here's a Bell state, and no SE required.\n\n\n\nSo what is the point of even asking this question in the first place? It has been argued by @PeterDonis and others in another thread (and we have discussed off and on at various times) that any new interpretation that recreates the basic SE must naturally lead to predictions fully consistent with all existing entanglement experiments - without any need to explain how. That deduction doesn't really follow, because the entire point of a novel interpretation is to ADD \"something\" to existing canon in the way of explanation. Maybe that novel explanation itself contradicts an experiment! It should be clear that in the year 2000, the SE had long been left behind as a basis for most entanglement research. Things like quantum nonlocality (remote entanglement swapping) and quantum causality (delayed choice) have no practical analog in the various forms of the SE. So I'm not sure how anyone can make the proposed leap that I am criticizing. \n\nSo if someone wants to put forth a new interpretation of QM, to add to an already overloaded list, they at least better address my 3 references. Because you cannot dismiss the incredible theoretical advances of the past 30+ years as being an \"obvious\" derivation of the SE. And in fact, the SE is not mentioned in any of these references. You really wouldn't expect it too, either, as the well-discussed limitations of the SE as it can be applied to the photon does not naturally lead to the usual Bell states and their quantum nonlocality in the first place." }, "publisher": { "@type": "Organization", "name": "Physics Forums: Science Discussion, Homework Help, Articles", "alternateName": "Physics Forums", "description": "Join Physics Forums, where students, scientists, and enthusiasts come together to explore and discuss the current understanding and practice of various scientific fields.", "url": "https://www.physicsforums.com", "logo": "https://www.physicsforums.com/styles/physicsforums/images/physics-forums-logo-og.png" } } </script> <script type="text/javascript" src="https://www.physicsforums.com/copyright.js" defer></script> <script> function parseNewPost(postid) { var newpost = document.getElementById("js-post-" + postid), npa = [newpost]; MathJax.typeset(npa); } function parsePreview() { var preview = document.getElementsByClassName("xfPreview"); MathJax.typeset(preview); } function parseNewConversationPost(postid) { var newpost = document.getElementsByClassName("convMessage-" + postid); MathJax.typeset(newpost); } function parseNewProfilePost(postid) { var newpost = document.getElementById("js-profilePost-" + postid), npa = [newpost]; MathJax.typeset(npa); } function parseTooltip() { MathJax.typeset(); } </script> </body> </html>

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Is delayed choice remote entanglement of photons derived from TDSE?