The Sermilik fjord in Greenland: a chilling view of a warming world | Environment

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Its fate is our fate'</p> </div> <ul id="content-actions"> <li> <div class="pluck-init-block" id="comment-info-related"> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/sep/01/sermilik-fjord-greenland-global-warming#start-of-comments" class="comment-count-info comment-icon">Comments (<span class="comment-count">…</span>)</a> </div> </li> <li class="third-party-tool "> <a id="buzzlink" href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://uk.buzz.yahoo.com/buzz?publisherurn=the_guardian665&targetUrl=http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/sep/01/sermilik-fjord-greenland-global-warming&summary=%3Cp%3EIf+the+Greenland+ice+sheet+disappeared+sea+levels+around+the+world+would+rise+by+seven+metres%3C%2Fp%3E&headline=The Sermilik fjord in Greenland: a chilling view of a warming world |Environment |The Guardian">Buzz up!</a> </li> <li class="third-party-tool"> <a id="digglink" href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://digg.com/submit?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.guardian.co.uk%2Fenvironment%2F2009%2Fsep%2F01%2Fsermilik-fjord-greenland-global-warming&title=The+Sermilik+fjord+in+Greenland%3A+a+chilling+view+of+a+warming+world">Digg it</a> </li> </ul> </div> <div id="content"> <ul class="article-attributes multi-pub"> <li> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/patrickbarkham"> <img class="contributor-pic-small" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/contributor/2007/09/28/patrick_barkham_140x140.jpg" width="60" height="60" alt="Patrick Barkham" title="Contributor picture"/> </a> </li> <li id="contrib-shift"><ul> <li class="byline"> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/patrickbarkham" name="&lid={contentTypeByline}{Patrick Barkham}&lpos={contentTypeByline}{1}">Patrick Barkham</a> at Sermilik fjord, Greenland </li> <li class="publication"> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian" name="&lid={contentTypeByline}{The Guardian}&lpos={contentTypeByline}{2}">The Guardian</a>, Tuesday 1 September 2009 </li> </ul></li> </ul> <div id="article-wrapper"> <div class="image"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pixies/2009/8/31/1251752470903/The-Sermilik-fjord-001.jpg" width="460" height="276" alt="The Sermilik fjord"/> <p class="caption">The Sermilik fjord, where hundreds of icebergs are calving from Greenland's vast ice sheets. Photograph: Philippe Roy/Getty</p> </div> <p>It is calving season in the <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/arctic" title="More from guardian.co.uk on Arctic">Arctic</a>. A flotilla of icebergs, some as jagged as fairytale castles and others as smooth as dinosaur eggs, calve from the ice sheet that smothers <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/greenland" title="More from guardian.co.uk on Greenland">Greenland</a> and sail down the fjords. The journey of these sculptures of ice from glaciers to ocean is eerily beautiful and utterly terrifying.</p><p>The wall of ice that rises behind Sermilik fjord stretches for 1,500 miles (2,400km) from north to south and smothers 80% of this country. It has been frozen for 3m years. <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/video/2009/aug/06/south-cascade-alarming-glacial-melting">Now it is melting, far faster than the climate models predicted</a> and far more decisively than any political action to combat our changing climate. If the Greenland ice sheet disappeared <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/aug/21/climate-change-nile-flooding-farming">sea levels around the world would rise by seven metres</a>, as 10% of the world's fresh water is currently frozen here.</p><p>This is also the season for science in Greenland. Glaciologists, seismologists and climatologists from around the world are landing on the ice sheet in helicopters, taking ice-breakers up its inaccessible coastline and measuring glaciers in a race against time to discover why the ice in Greenland is vanishing so much faster than expected.</p><p>Gordon Hamilton, a Scottish-born glaciologist from the University of Maine's <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/climate-change" title="More from guardian.co.uk on Climate change">Climate Change</a> Institute, is packing up equipment at his base camp in Tasiilaq, a tiny, remote east coast settlement only accessible by helicopter and where huskies howl all night.</p><p>With his spiky hair and ripped T-shirt, Hamilton could be a rugged glaciologist straight from central casting. Four years ago he hit upon the daring idea of landing on a moving glacier in a helicopter to measure its speed.</p><p>The glaciers of Greenland are the fat, restless fingers of its vast ice sheet, constantly moving, stretching down into fjords and pushing ice from the sheet into the ocean, in the form of melt water and icebergs.</p><p>Before their first expedition, Hamilton and his colleague Leigh Stearns, from the University of Kansas, used satellite data to plan exactly where they would land on a glacier.</p><p>"When we arrived there was no glacier to be seen. It was way up the fjord," he says. "We thought we'd made some stupid goof with the co-ordinates, but we were where we were supposed to be." It was the glacier that was in the wrong place. <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/gallery/2009/apr/28/glaciers-melting-climate-change">A vast expanse had melted away.</a></p><p>When Hamilton and Stearns processed their first measurements of the glacier's speed, they thought they had made another mistake. They found it was marching forwards at a greater pace than a glacier had ever been observed to flow before. "We were blown away because we realised that the glaciers had accelerated not just by a little bit but by a lot," he says. The three glaciers they studied had abruptly increased the speed by which they were transmitting ice from the ice sheet into the ocean.</p><p><strong>Raw power</strong></p><p>Standing before a glacier in Greenland as it calves icebergs into the dark waters of a cavernous fjord is to witness the raw power of a natural process we have accelerated but will now struggle to control.</p><p>Greenland's glaciers make those in the Alps look like toys. Grubby white and blue crystal towers, cliffs and crevasses soar up from the water, dispatching millenniums of compacted snow in the shape of seals, water lilies and bishops' mitres.</p><p>I take a small boat to see the calving with Dines Mikaelsen, an Inuit guide, who in the winter will cross the ice sheet in his five-metre sled pulled by 16 huskies.</p><p>It is not freezing but even in summer the wind is bitingly cold and we can smell the bad breath of a humpback whale as it groans past our bows on Sermilik Fjord. Above its heavy breathing, all you can hear in this wilderness is the drip-drip of melting ice and a crash as icebergs cleave into even smaller lumps, called growlers.</p><p>Mikaelsen stops his boat beside Hann glacier and points out how it was twice as wide and stretched 300 metres further into the fjord just 10 years ago. He also shows off a spectacular electric blue iceberg.</p><p>Locals have nicknamed it "blue diamond"; its colour comes from being cleaved from centuries-old compressed ice at the ancient heart of the glacier. Bobbing in warming waters, this ancient ice fossil will be gone in a couple of weeks.</p><p>The blue diamond is one vivid pointer to the antiquity of the Greenland ice sheet. A relic of the last Ice Age, this is one of three great ice sheets in the world. Up to two miles thick, the other two lie in Antarctica.</p><p>While similar melting effects are being measured in the southern hemisphere, the Greenland sheet may be uniquely vulnerable, lying much further from the chill of the pole than Antarctica's sheets. The southern end of the Greenland sheet is almost on the same latitude as the Shetlands and stroked by the warm waters of the Gulf Stream.</p><p>Driven by the loss of ice, Arctic temperatures are warming more quickly than other parts of the world: last autumn air temperatures in the Arctic stood at a record 5C above normal. For centuries, the ice sheets maintained an equilibrium: glaciers calved off icebergs and sent melt water into the oceans every summer; in winter, the ice sheet was then replenished with more frozen snow. Scientists believe the world's great ice sheets will not completely disappear for many more centuries, but the Greenland ice sheet is now shedding more ice than it is accumulating.</p><p>The melting has been recorded since 1979; scientists put the annual net loss of ice and water from the ice sheet at 300-400 gigatonnes, which could hasten a sea level rise of catastrophic proportions.</p><p>As Hamilton has found, Greenland's glaciers have increased the speed at which they shift ice from the sheet into the ocean. Helheim, an enormous tower of ice that calves into Sermilik Fjord, used to move at 7km (4.4 miles) a year. In 2005, in less than a year, it speeded up to nearly 12km a year. Kangerdlugssuaq, another glacier that Hamilton measured, tripled its speed between 1988 and 2005. Its movement – an inch every minute – could be seen with the naked eye.</p><p>The three glaciers that Hamilton and Stearns measured account for about a fifth of the discharge from the entire Greenland ice sheet. The implications of their acceleration are profound: "If they all start to speed up, you could have quite a large rise in sea level in the near term, much larger than the official estimate by the <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.ipcc.ch/">Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC)</a> would project," says Hamilton.</p><p>The scientific labours in the chill winds and high seas of the Arctic summer seem wrapped in an unusual sense of urgency this year. The scientists working in Greenland are keen to communicate their new, emerging understanding of the dynamics of the declining ice sheet to the wider world. Several point out that any international agreement forged at the UN climate change conference in Copenhagen in December will be based on the IPCC's fourth assessment report from 2007. Its estimates of climate change and sea-level rise were based on scientific research submitted up to 2005; the scientists say this is already significantly out of date.</p><p>The 2007 report predicted a sea level rise of 30cm-60cm by 2100, but did not account for the impact of glaciers breaking into the sea from areas such as the Greenland ice sheet. Most scientists working at the poles predict a one metre rise by 2100. The<a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.usgs.gov/"> US Geological Survey</a> has predicted a 1.5 metre rise. As Hamilton points out: "It is only the first metre that matters".</p><p><strong>Record temperatures</strong></p><p>A one metre rise – with the risk of higher storm surges – would require <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/mar/31/thames-flood-barrier-london">new defences for New York, London</a>, Mumbai and Shanghai, and imperil swaths of low-lying land from Bangladesh to Florida. Vulnerable areas accommodate 10%of the world's population – 600 million.</p><p>The Greenland ice sheet is not merely being melted from above by warmer air temperatures. As the oceans of the Arctic waters reach record high temperatures, the role of warmer water lapping against these great glaciers is one of several factors shaping the loss of the ice sheet that has been overlooked until recently.</p><p>Fiamma Straneo, an Italian-born oceanographer, is laboriously winding recording equipment the size of a fire extinguisher from the deck of a small Greenpeace icebreaker caught in huge swells at the mouth of Sermilik fjord.</p><p>In previous decades the Arctic Sunrise has been used in taking direct action against whalers; now it offers itself as a floating research station for independent scientists to reach remote parts of the ice sheet. It is tough work for the multinational crew of 30 in this rough-and-ready little boat, prettified below deck with posters of orang-utans and sunflowers painted in the toilets.</p><p>Before I succumb to vomiting below deck – another journalist is so seasick they are airlifted off the boat – I examine the navigational charts used by the captain, Pete Willcox, a survivor of the sinking of the <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/nov/28/politics.freedomofinformation">Rainbow Warrior</a> in 1985. He shows how they are dotted with measurements showing the depth of the ocean but here, close to the east coast of Greenland, the map is blank: this part of the North Atlantic was once covered by sea ice for so much of the year that its waters are still uncharted.</p><p>Earlier in the expedition, the crew believe, they became the first boat to travel through the Nares Strait west of Greenland to the Arctic Ocean in June, once impassable because of sea ice at that time of year. The predicted year when summers in the Arctic would be free of sea ice has fallen from 2100 to 2050 to 2030 in a couple of years.</p><p>Jay Zwally, a Nasa scientist, recently suggested it could be virtually ice-free by late summer 2012. Between 2004 and 2008 the area of "multiyear" Arctic sea ice (ice that has formed over more than one winter and survived the summer melt) shrank by 595,000 sq miles, an area larger than France, Germany and the United Kingdom combined.</p><p>Undaunted by the sickening swell of the ocean and wrapped up against the chilly wind, Straneo, of Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, one of the world's leading oceanographic research centres, continues to take measurements from the waters as the long Arctic dusk falls.</p><p>According to Straneo, the rapid changes to the ice sheet have taken glaciologists by surprise. "One of the possible mechanisms which we think may have triggered these changes is melting driven by changing ocean temperatures and currents at the margins of the ice sheet."</p><p>She has been surprised by early results measuring sea water close to the melting glaciers: one probe recovered from last year recorded a relatively balmy 2C at 60 metres in the fjord in the middle of winter. Straneo said: "This warm and salty water is of subtropical origin – it's carried by the Gulf Stream. In recent years a lot more of this warm water has been found around the coastal region of Greenland. We think this is one of the mechanisms that has caused these glaciers to accelerate and shed more ice."</p><p>Straneo's research is looking at what scientists call the "dynamic effects" of the Greenland ice sheet. It is not simply that the ice sheet is melting steadily as global temperatures rise. Rather, the melting triggers dynamic new effects, which in turn accelerate the melt.</p><p>"It's quite likely that these dynamic effects are more important in generating a near-term rapid rise in sea level than the traditional melt," says Hamilton. Another example of these dynamic effects is when the ice sheet melts to expose dirty layers of old snow laced with<strong> </strong>black carbon from forest fires and even cosmic dust. These dark particles absorb more heat and so further speed up the melt.</p><p>After Straneo gathers her final measurements, the Arctic Sunrise heads for the tranquillity of the sole berth at Tasiilaq, which has a population of fewer than 3,000 but is still the largest settlement on Greenland's vast east coast. Here another scientist is gathering her final provisions before taking her team camping on a remote glacier.</p><p><strong>Invisible earthquakes</strong></p><p>Several years ago Meredith Nettles, a seismologist from Colombia University, and two colleagues made a remarkable discovery: they identified a new kind of earthquake. These quakes were substantial – measuring magnitude five – but had been invisible because they did not show up on seismographs. (While orthodox tremors registered for a couple of seconds, these occurred rather more slowly, over a minute.)</p><p>The new earthquakes were traced almost exclusively to Greenland, where they were found to be specifically associated with large, fast-flowing outlet glaciers. There have been 200 of them in the last dozen years; in 2005 there were six times as many as in 1993.</p><p>Nettles nimbly explains the science as she heaves bags of equipment on to a helicopter, which will fly her to study Kangerdlugssuaq glacier. "It's quite a dramatic increase, and that increase happened at the same time as we were seeing <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/jul/26/climate-change-obama-administration">dramatic retreats</a> in the location of the calving fronts of the glaciers, and an increase in their flow speed," she says. "The earthquakes are very closely associated with large-scale ice loss events."</p><p>In other words, the huge chunks of ice breaking off from the glaciers and entering the oceans are large enough to generate a seismic signal that is sent through the Earth. They are happening more regularly and, when they occur, it appears that the glacier speeds up even more.</p><p>The scientists rightly wrap their latest observations in caution. Their studies are still in their infancy. Some of the effects they are observing may be short-term.</p><p>The Greenland ice sheet has survived natural warmer periods in history, the last about 120,000 years ago, although it was much smaller then than it is now. Those still sceptical of the scientific consensus over climate change should perhaps listen to the voices of those who could not be accused of having anything to gain from talking up climate change.</p><p><strong>Inuit warnings</strong></p><p>Arne Sorensen, a specialist ice navigator on Arctic Sunrise, began sailing the Arctic in the 1970s. Journeys around Greenland's coast that would take three weeks in the 1970s because of sea ice now take a day. He pays heed to the observations of the Inuit. "If you talk to people who live close to nature and they tell you this is unusual and this is not something they have noticed before, then I really put emphasis on that," he says. Paakkanna Ignatiussen, 52, has been hunting seals since he was 13. His grandparents travelled less than a mile to hunt; he must go more than 60 miles because the sea ice disappears earlier – and with it the seals. "It's hard to see the ice go back. In the old days when we got ice it was only ice. Today it is more like slush," he says. "In 10 years there will be no traditional hunting. The weather is the reason."</p><p>The stench of rotting seal flesh wafts from a bag in the porch of his house in Tasiilaq as Ignatiussen's wife, Ane, remarks that, "the seasons are upside down".</p><p>Local people are acutely aware of how the weather is changing animal behaviour. Browsing the guns for sale in the supermarket in Tasiilaq (you don't need a licence for a gun here), Axel Hansen says more hungry polar bears prowl around the town these days. Like the hunters, the bears can't find seals when there is so little sea ice. And the fjords are filled with so many icebergs that local people find it hard to hunt whales there.</p><p>Westerners may shrug at the decline of traditional hunting but, in a sense, we all live on the Greenland ice sheet now. Its fate is our fate. The scientists swarming over this ancient mass of ice, trying to understand how it will be transformed in a warming world, and how it will transform us, are wary of making political comments about how our leaders should plan for one metre of sea level rise, and what drastic steps must be taken to cut <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/carbon-emissions" title="More from guardian.co.uk on Carbon emissions">carbon emissions</a>. But some scientists are so astounded by the changes they are recording that they are moved to speak out.</p><p>What, I ask Hamilton, would he say to Barack Obama if he could spend <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/jul/26/climate-change-obama-administration ">10 minutes with the US president</a> standing on Helheim glacier?</p><p>"Without knowing anything about what is going on, you just have to look at the glacier to know something huge is happening here," says the glaciologist. "We can't as a scientific community keep up with the pace of changes, let alone explain why they are happening.</p><p>"If I was, God forbid, the leader of the free world, I would implement some changes to deal with the maximum risk that we might reasonably expect to encounter, rather than always planning for the minimum. We won't know the consequences of not doing that until it's way too late. Even as a politician on a four-year elected cycle, you can't morally leave someone with that problem."</p><p>• <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.1010uk.org/">Sign up for 10:10 now</a></p><p>• This article was amended on Tuesday 1 September 2009. The words in brackets were removed from this sentence: "The melting has been recorded since 1979; scientists put the annual net loss of ice and water from the ice sheet at 300-400 gigatonnes (equivalent to a billion elephants being dropped in the ocean), which could hasten a sea level rise of catastrophic proportions." It was not a good comparison: a gigatonne is 1 billion tonnes and elephants do not weigh 300-400 tonnes.</p> </div> </div> <div id="related"> <ul id="article-toolbox-side"> <li class="printable"><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/sep/01/sermilik-fjord-greenland-global-warming/print" rel="nofollow" id="printlink" class="printable rollover" title="Link to a printer-friendly version" name="&lid={pageToolbox}{Printer-friendly version}&lpos={pageToolbox}{1}"><img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/static/83728/common/images/icon_print.gif" alt="Print this" class="trail-icon"/><span>Printable version</span></a></li> <li><a class="rollover sendlink" href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/email/352359905" title="Opens an email form" name="&lid={pageToolbox}{Email a friend}&lpos={pageToolbox}{2}"><img 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href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/tone/comment" name="&lid={inlineKeyword}{Comment}&lpos={inlineKeyword}{10}">More comment </a></h3> </div> </div> <div id="manual-trailblock" class="package"> <ul> <li class="first"> <h3>More on this story</h3> </li> <li class="picture"> <p class="thumbnail"> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/sep/02/10-10-conservative-lib-dem" name="&lid={packagesAndManualTrailblock}{Tories and Lib Dems welcome 10:10 climate campaign}&lpos={trail}{1}" class="link-image"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Environment/Pix/columnists/2009/8/31/1251732908191/1010-campaign-launches-at-004.jpg" width="140" height="84" alt="10:10 campaign launches at Tate Modern"/> </a> </p> <p> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/sep/02/10-10-conservative-lib-dem" 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<input type="button" value="Yes, close" id="abuse-close-confirm"/> <input type="button" value="No, return to text" id="abuse-close-cancel"/> </p> </div> <div id="abuse-thank-you-area"> <p>Thank you <input type="button" value="Close" id="abuse-close-thank-you"/> </p> </div> <div id="abuse-pluck-error-area"> <p>Sorry, something has gone wrong and this action cannot be completed. <span>Please try again later.</span></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> <div id="pluck-comment-block" class="pluck-comment-block js-hitbox-tracked pluck-comments-container"> <div> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-1"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/gazzahall2002" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/store/15/14/bf0a27d9-7bdc-420b-8e0c-d0741104b3e4.Small.jpg" height="60" width="60" alt="gazzahall2002"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/gazzahall2002"> gazzahall2002 </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 12:26AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Trusted"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body comment-blocked"> This comment has been removed by a moderator. Replies may also be deleted. </div> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-2"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/druidic" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/store/8/9/a81a9acb-295e-48ae-a927-be470c5650b0.Small.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="druidic"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/druidic"> druidic </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 12:26AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body comment-blocked"> This comment has been removed by a moderator. Replies may also be deleted. </div> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-3"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Simon123" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="Simon123"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Simon123"> Simon123 </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 12:29AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>Here we go again. Ice cap melts. So what? I imagine the scenes are rather similar to those seen when the ice cap that extended as far South as the Midlands melted millions of years ago. Ancient settlements have been discovered on the seabed of the North Sea which was once dry land. It's just natural evolution, don't worry about it.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:1d692970-24e0-4381-9f71-51a3ca05f980"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:1d692970-24e0-4381-9f71-51a3ca05f980" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:1d692970-24e0-4381-9f71-51a3ca05f980')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:1d692970-24e0-4381-9f71-51a3ca05f980" class="high-recommended">(70)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=1d692970-24e0-4381-9f71-51a3ca05f980&commenterUserName=Simon123&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:1d692970-24e0-4381-9f71-51a3ca05f980" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-4"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/DifferenceEngine" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/store/4/6/4461e47c-1e44-4842-a64a-1a86d29c1d3f.Small.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="DifferenceEngine"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/DifferenceEngine"> DifferenceEngine </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 12:29AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>We're stuffed then, basically</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:afdcd155-763d-4073-a5ec-50e0cc6592ed"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:afdcd155-763d-4073-a5ec-50e0cc6592ed" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:afdcd155-763d-4073-a5ec-50e0cc6592ed')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:afdcd155-763d-4073-a5ec-50e0cc6592ed" class="high-recommended">(17)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=afdcd155-763d-4073-a5ec-50e0cc6592ed&commenterUserName=DifferenceEngine&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:afdcd155-763d-4073-a5ec-50e0cc6592ed" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-5"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Fomalhaut88" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="Fomalhaut88"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Fomalhaut88"> Fomalhaut88 </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 12:37AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>Patrick :</p><p>When is the next fuel tax rise?</p><p>Tomorrow?</p><p>We had one today already.</p><p>If you buy into this AGW stuff, then recognise that your problem is over-population.</p><p>Until you recognise that, you are peeing in the (ever-warmer) wind.</p><p></p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:229ab714-4068-4ced-a91c-94934f6b85f2"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:229ab714-4068-4ced-a91c-94934f6b85f2" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:229ab714-4068-4ced-a91c-94934f6b85f2')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:229ab714-4068-4ced-a91c-94934f6b85f2" class="high-recommended">(30)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=229ab714-4068-4ced-a91c-94934f6b85f2&commenterUserName=Fomalhaut88&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:229ab714-4068-4ced-a91c-94934f6b85f2" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-6"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/davidsouthafrican" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="davidsouthafrican"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/davidsouthafrican"> davidsouthafrican </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 12:37AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>Thank god for this initiative. To save ourselves and our planetary next-door numbers, e should move to a war footing as rapidly as possible.</p><p>Turn the rosebeds into vegetable gardens. Delay having children, do sustainability audits for those we plan to have, create a perceptual framework to limit and reduce human poulation numbers.</p><p>I will commit to reducing my carbon foorprint by 10% this year, and campaign in South Africa to ubiquitise awareness of this movement.</p><p>lets get off our arses tomorrow morning.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:de8722ec-6fe7-4a88-9fa1-88ba8e047b1b"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:de8722ec-6fe7-4a88-9fa1-88ba8e047b1b" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:de8722ec-6fe7-4a88-9fa1-88ba8e047b1b')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:de8722ec-6fe7-4a88-9fa1-88ba8e047b1b" class="high-recommended">(56)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=de8722ec-6fe7-4a88-9fa1-88ba8e047b1b&commenterUserName=davidsouthafrican&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:de8722ec-6fe7-4a88-9fa1-88ba8e047b1b" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-7"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/maceasy" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="maceasy"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/maceasy"> maceasy </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 12:39AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>Sobering stuff. Not that it will stop the little self-appointed army of armchair climate experts filling the blog with their conspiracy theories and telling us how their superior knowledge gained from a couple of websites is far more reliable than the people who have devoted their lives to understanding this phenomenon.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:c8ab7091-a16f-4217-90e4-e40a9e785b5f"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:c8ab7091-a16f-4217-90e4-e40a9e785b5f" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:c8ab7091-a16f-4217-90e4-e40a9e785b5f')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:c8ab7091-a16f-4217-90e4-e40a9e785b5f" class="high-recommended">(251)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=c8ab7091-a16f-4217-90e4-e40a9e785b5f&commenterUserName=maceasy&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:c8ab7091-a16f-4217-90e4-e40a9e785b5f" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-8"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/davidsouthafrican" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="davidsouthafrican"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/davidsouthafrican"> davidsouthafrican </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 12:42AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>sorry very late here, should have proof read my comments, but hey,</p><p>thanks 10 10 organisers</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:54623133-41fc-42ca-bf3a-ba1358202b8a"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:54623133-41fc-42ca-bf3a-ba1358202b8a" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:54623133-41fc-42ca-bf3a-ba1358202b8a')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:54623133-41fc-42ca-bf3a-ba1358202b8a" class="high-recommended">(2)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=54623133-41fc-42ca-bf3a-ba1358202b8a&commenterUserName=davidsouthafrican&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:54623133-41fc-42ca-bf3a-ba1358202b8a" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-9"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/BrethynDa" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="BrethynDa"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/BrethynDa"> BrethynDa </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 12:43AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>Simon123 says:</p><p>"Ancient settlements have been discovered on the seabed of the North Sea which was once dry land. It's just natural evolution, don't worry about it."</p><p>OK, so please tell us how, in the face of this "natural evolution," you'd evacuate all cities and towns at risk of flooding and relocate their populations and infrastucture elsewhere . Shouldn't take you more than, oh, ten years.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:7d123dee-a565-4fec-88ce-505939a217ca"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:7d123dee-a565-4fec-88ce-505939a217ca" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:7d123dee-a565-4fec-88ce-505939a217ca')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:7d123dee-a565-4fec-88ce-505939a217ca" class="high-recommended">(87)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=7d123dee-a565-4fec-88ce-505939a217ca&commenterUserName=BrethynDa&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:7d123dee-a565-4fec-88ce-505939a217ca" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-10"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/livewareproblem" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="livewareproblem"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/livewareproblem"> livewareproblem </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 1:04AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>Quite a scary article. As one of the millions who would likely lose their home (or worse) due to a significant rise in sea-levels, I hope that people start paying more attention to the realities of climate change.</p><p>As for the 'deniers', well. If it's <i>not</i> true, and we take action anyway - no harm done. On the other hand, if it <i>is</i> true, and we don't...</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:c22f7017-cfc5-4264-8317-19cbd1f5e311"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:c22f7017-cfc5-4264-8317-19cbd1f5e311" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:c22f7017-cfc5-4264-8317-19cbd1f5e311')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:c22f7017-cfc5-4264-8317-19cbd1f5e311" class="high-recommended">(79)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=c22f7017-cfc5-4264-8317-19cbd1f5e311&commenterUserName=livewareproblem&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:c22f7017-cfc5-4264-8317-19cbd1f5e311" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-11"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/andrewfisk" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/store/9/3/49489910-eead-42e2-b3e8-04e967a30119.Small.jpg" height="60" width="60" alt="andrewfisk"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/andrewfisk"> andrewfisk </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 1:07AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>Whether one believes in global warming or not the fact is we should consider how much our individual lifestyles affect the environment...</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:b9a25f2d-5f0e-413f-a799-930093dccfc3"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:b9a25f2d-5f0e-413f-a799-930093dccfc3" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:b9a25f2d-5f0e-413f-a799-930093dccfc3')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:b9a25f2d-5f0e-413f-a799-930093dccfc3" class="high-recommended">(62)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=b9a25f2d-5f0e-413f-a799-930093dccfc3&commenterUserName=andrewfisk&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:b9a25f2d-5f0e-413f-a799-930093dccfc3" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-12"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Carogat" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="Carogat"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Carogat"> Carogat </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 1:11AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>Nobody is certain about any of this.</p><p>All we have is evidence put in front of us and the opinions of experts such as James Lovelock who has spent most of his life researching the heating and cooling mechanisms of the planet - imo a practical scientist not a doom-monger - and he predicts Greenland, Canada and to some extent the UK will be the hot-spots (so to speak) for human habitation in the future as most of the rest of the planet becomes uninhabitable scrub land.</p><p>This "Global Heating" as he calls it seems a far more realistic term after reading this article.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:dd543ecb-f87a-4951-8c4a-534c1c5296f3"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:dd543ecb-f87a-4951-8c4a-534c1c5296f3" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:dd543ecb-f87a-4951-8c4a-534c1c5296f3')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:dd543ecb-f87a-4951-8c4a-534c1c5296f3" class="high-recommended">(22)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=dd543ecb-f87a-4951-8c4a-534c1c5296f3&commenterUserName=Carogat&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:dd543ecb-f87a-4951-8c4a-534c1c5296f3" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-13"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/masterislove" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="masterislove"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/masterislove"> masterislove </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 1:12AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Trusted"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>Why do you think it is caleed Greenland and not Iceland?</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:b729e24f-b38b-4fde-b7ef-33163e213ad9"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:b729e24f-b38b-4fde-b7ef-33163e213ad9" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:b729e24f-b38b-4fde-b7ef-33163e213ad9')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:b729e24f-b38b-4fde-b7ef-33163e213ad9" class="high-recommended">(22)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=b729e24f-b38b-4fde-b7ef-33163e213ad9&commenterUserName=masterislove&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:b729e24f-b38b-4fde-b7ef-33163e213ad9" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-14"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/thewhitedog" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="thewhitedog"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/thewhitedog"> thewhitedog </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 1:14AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>I was quite happily reading this article, until a read the analogy of the icemelt being the equivalent of dropping a billion elephants into the ocean. Really!</p><p>Let's face it, we're not going to do anything to address this problem; it's not even the most urgent that we face.</p><p>As a planet, we've got a third of the human race suffering from hunger and without sufficient access to adequate water supplies, and what do we do about it? Next to nothing.</p><p>As human beings, we can't even save the tiger from almost inevitable extinction, so why should we be able to save ourselves?</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:853eb939-e2ab-411a-88c2-e7197599fdce"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:853eb939-e2ab-411a-88c2-e7197599fdce" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:853eb939-e2ab-411a-88c2-e7197599fdce')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:853eb939-e2ab-411a-88c2-e7197599fdce" class="high-recommended">(28)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=853eb939-e2ab-411a-88c2-e7197599fdce&commenterUserName=thewhitedog&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:853eb939-e2ab-411a-88c2-e7197599fdce" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-15"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Simon123" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="Simon123"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Simon123"> Simon123 </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 1:18AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>BrethynDa,</p><p>The settlements at the bottom of the North Sea were not flooded overnight and the people had time to move. The same would happen here, a bit like the slow erosion of cliffs on the East Coast, people don't move there and those who see the cliffs disappearing get out. You won't get whole cities suddenly falling into the sea. It's just a natural process and people will act accordingly. What is unnatural is building developments like the Thames Gateway on existing floodplains but that's just stupidity. No one with any sense will move there so it will probably fail due to lack of interest. Would you buy a house beside a river that was lower than the high tide?</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:945eeea3-20e4-4ce2-af5a-56ac8b498647"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:945eeea3-20e4-4ce2-af5a-56ac8b498647" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:945eeea3-20e4-4ce2-af5a-56ac8b498647')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:945eeea3-20e4-4ce2-af5a-56ac8b498647" class="high-recommended">(24)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=945eeea3-20e4-4ce2-af5a-56ac8b498647&commenterUserName=Simon123&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:945eeea3-20e4-4ce2-af5a-56ac8b498647" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-16"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/LoonyGoon" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="LoonyGoon"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/LoonyGoon"> LoonyGoon </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 1:18AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>We're all screwed anyway, and this 10:10 thing is pointless. The only way we could possibly make a difference is if everyone on the planet made an effort, and that's not going to happen as many people would still deny there's a problem even if there was water up to their nostrils. I think the horse bolted a while ago anyway, so my best advice is don't procreate.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:ba8c23f9-5d73-40f6-8b4b-99d0c105b4ed"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:ba8c23f9-5d73-40f6-8b4b-99d0c105b4ed" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:ba8c23f9-5d73-40f6-8b4b-99d0c105b4ed')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:ba8c23f9-5d73-40f6-8b4b-99d0c105b4ed" class="high-recommended">(32)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=ba8c23f9-5d73-40f6-8b4b-99d0c105b4ed&commenterUserName=LoonyGoon&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:ba8c23f9-5d73-40f6-8b4b-99d0c105b4ed" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-17"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/CoconutJoe" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="CoconutJoe"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/CoconutJoe"> CoconutJoe </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 1:25AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>I really can't believe that people can deny that this is happening.</p><p>What I don't get is if there is overwhelming evidence to suggest it is happening, but a small amount of subjective, isolated studies say it isn't, what the thinking behind denying it can be fuelled by.<br/>If it's simply 'they are scaremongering again', you have to look at the reasons for doing this. Why would 'they' try to get you use less resources? Ultimately it means less consumption, less taxation received by the government and less profit for multinationals.</p><p>No sane government would buy into such an idea unless it really, truly exists. Pretty obvious really...</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:faf6a1bd-31b6-4075-aab2-a5ee1d1578d2"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:faf6a1bd-31b6-4075-aab2-a5ee1d1578d2" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:faf6a1bd-31b6-4075-aab2-a5ee1d1578d2')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:faf6a1bd-31b6-4075-aab2-a5ee1d1578d2" class="high-recommended">(75)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=faf6a1bd-31b6-4075-aab2-a5ee1d1578d2&commenterUserName=CoconutJoe&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:faf6a1bd-31b6-4075-aab2-a5ee1d1578d2" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-18"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/BrethynDa" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="BrethynDa"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/BrethynDa"> BrethynDa </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 1:48AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>Simon123:</p><p>We have time to move too. Bit it's a little bit more than moving a few thousand people to higher ground this time.</p><p>Frankly, I don't see it happening as long as people say that it's part of "natural evolution" that we needn't worry about.</p><p>Sorry.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:6dc92750-1783-4f37-aeae-035a699212d5"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:6dc92750-1783-4f37-aeae-035a699212d5" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:6dc92750-1783-4f37-aeae-035a699212d5')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:6dc92750-1783-4f37-aeae-035a699212d5" class="high-recommended">(7)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=6dc92750-1783-4f37-aeae-035a699212d5&commenterUserName=BrethynDa&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:6dc92750-1783-4f37-aeae-035a699212d5" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-19"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/discogsfred" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/store/8/5/e890c8a7-237e-48c8-8588-84ac8089189d.Small.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="discogsfred"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/discogsfred"> discogsfred </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 1:58AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>"Why do you think it is caleed Greenland and not Iceland?"</p><p>The name was taken by the time they got there?</p><p>Nice logo, anyway.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:afd549ea-ad56-4aa8-8589-78db2d439376"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:afd549ea-ad56-4aa8-8589-78db2d439376" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:afd549ea-ad56-4aa8-8589-78db2d439376')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:afd549ea-ad56-4aa8-8589-78db2d439376" class="high-recommended">(8)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=afd549ea-ad56-4aa8-8589-78db2d439376&commenterUserName=discogsfred&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:afd549ea-ad56-4aa8-8589-78db2d439376" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-20"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/daveheasman" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="daveheasman"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/daveheasman"> daveheasman </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 1:59AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <blockquote><p>Bit it's a little bit more than moving a few thousand people to higher ground this time.</p><p>Frankly, I don't see it happening as long as people say that it's part of "natural evolution" that we needn't worry about.</p></blockquote><p>Good; the GW denialism may prevent 200 million people trying to migrate to the UK. Some will have guns.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:5085e046-6987-4532-818a-e4d484d9fc47"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:5085e046-6987-4532-818a-e4d484d9fc47" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:5085e046-6987-4532-818a-e4d484d9fc47')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:5085e046-6987-4532-818a-e4d484d9fc47" class="high-recommended">(5)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=5085e046-6987-4532-818a-e4d484d9fc47&commenterUserName=daveheasman&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:5085e046-6987-4532-818a-e4d484d9fc47" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-21"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/discogsfred" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/store/8/5/e890c8a7-237e-48c8-8588-84ac8089189d.Small.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="discogsfred"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/discogsfred"> discogsfred </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 2:05AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p><i>"If it's simply 'they are scaremongering again', you have to look at the reasons for doing this. Why would 'they' try to get you use less resources? Ultimately it means less consumption, less taxation received by the government and less profit for multinationals."</i></p><p>I don't meet many people that deny it outright, not clever one's anyway, but there are quite a few people les than convinced humans are the cause. I'm not really one of them, but to the question of 'Why would 'they' try to get you use less resources?' I suppose one explanation could be preparation for the forthcoming lack of oil, and though it seems perfectly sensible that humanity's industry is responsible for change on this scale I'd still like to read a reasonable concise collection of reasons why this is the case. Anyone got one?</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:707b6a85-3246-457d-a691-2cbcc305ce62"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:707b6a85-3246-457d-a691-2cbcc305ce62" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:707b6a85-3246-457d-a691-2cbcc305ce62')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:707b6a85-3246-457d-a691-2cbcc305ce62" class="high-recommended">(10)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=707b6a85-3246-457d-a691-2cbcc305ce62&commenterUserName=discogsfred&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:707b6a85-3246-457d-a691-2cbcc305ce62" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-22"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/WTIngle" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/store/1/7/c1c0a0f4-e82c-4a8d-9751-27845b2df83b.Small.jpg" height="60" width="60" alt="WTIngle"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/WTIngle"> WTIngle </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 2:14AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>Coconut Joe:</p><blockquote><p><b><i>I really can't believe that people can deny that this is happening.</i></b></p></blockquote><p>I can. I've been reading reports about melting ice since before it reached the present level of attention and sharing them with others. Even now, I encounter those who refuse to believe them.</p><blockquote><p><b><i>Why would 'they' try to get you use less resources? Ultimately it means less consumption, less taxation received by the government and less profit for multinationals. No sane government would buy into such an idea unless it really, truly exists. Pretty obvious really...</i></b></p></blockquote><p>I prefer to separate what is clearly happening from <b><i>why</i></b> it is happening.</p><p>The melting is happening and, I presume, will continue to happen, regardless of why this is so.</p><p>Is it likely that all of the planet's people and governments will agree on actions to take to reduce this melting and then take those actions?</p><p>I doubt it, while I remain agnostic regarding the why's. Those offered are plausible, but then plausibility is not the same as knowing with certainty.</p><p>Even if everyone did agree and took all necessary action with sufficient speed, it's possible this might make little or no difference. (Some experiment -- the only way to know with any certainty isn't likely to happen!)</p><p>All of this suggests a definite need for increased monitoring. Planning, not hysteria, is also definitely called for.</p><p>Bill I.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:6bde35a3-804e-45d6-bcb7-d6c5fb4dff90"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:6bde35a3-804e-45d6-bcb7-d6c5fb4dff90" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:6bde35a3-804e-45d6-bcb7-d6c5fb4dff90')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:6bde35a3-804e-45d6-bcb7-d6c5fb4dff90" class="high-recommended">(14)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=6bde35a3-804e-45d6-bcb7-d6c5fb4dff90&commenterUserName=WTIngle&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:6bde35a3-804e-45d6-bcb7-d6c5fb4dff90" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-23"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Tiki" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/store/8/2/a851ed73-05a9-4ac6-a294-b3d3b2b00579.Small.png" height="60" width="60" alt="Tiki"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Tiki"> Tiki </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 2:22AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body comment-blocked"> This comment has been removed by a moderator. Replies may also be deleted. </div> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-24"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/smoothisland" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="smoothisland"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/smoothisland"> smoothisland </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 2:45AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <blockquote><p>I'd still like to read a reasonable concise collection of reasons why this is the case</p></blockquote><p>Industry requires fossil fuel (mostly). Burning fossil fuels releases CO2 into the atmousphere. Increased CO2 traps heat and warms the earth.</p><p>I think that basically covers it. That's the simple part. Even oil loving, climate denying morons like George Bush could not deny that much.</p><p>The complex part is what happens next. Interestingly, there's a reasonable probability that melting glaciers will cause <i>cooling</i> in Britain and Western Europe. See <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/05mar_arctic.htm"> Article on cooling in Europe from NASA</a>.</p><p>These changes will undoubtedly provide large amounts of fodder for the climate denyiers and energy sponsored PR firms spewing disinformation.</p><p>And then there are the <i>really</i> interesting scenarios where climate change catalyses irreversible feedback mechanisms (melting glaciers and arctic ice being one). These start with rainforests being killed by climate change (rainforests absorb CO2) and end with billions of tons of methane being released from the arctic floor (a phenomenon observed recently off the coast of Norway). Methane, as you might know, is flammable so you really will have apocalyptic scenes of fireballs shooting into the sky (unfortunately, by that point, there wont be many people left to watch them).</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:cd6924ee-feb4-48a6-99ee-8d1697d7f8f8"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:cd6924ee-feb4-48a6-99ee-8d1697d7f8f8" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:cd6924ee-feb4-48a6-99ee-8d1697d7f8f8')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:cd6924ee-feb4-48a6-99ee-8d1697d7f8f8" class="high-recommended">(35)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=cd6924ee-feb4-48a6-99ee-8d1697d7f8f8&commenterUserName=smoothisland&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:cd6924ee-feb4-48a6-99ee-8d1697d7f8f8" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-25"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/WTIngle" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/store/1/7/c1c0a0f4-e82c-4a8d-9751-27845b2df83b.Small.jpg" height="60" width="60" alt="WTIngle"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/WTIngle"> WTIngle </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 2:49AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>Tiki:</p><blockquote><p><i><b>if they dropped a billion elephants into the ocean why haven't we seen it rise yet?</b></i></p></blockquote><p>You might bother to read the article. It says:</p><blockquote><p><b><i>The 2007 report predicted a sea level rise of 30cm-60cm by 2100, but did not account for the impact of glaciers breaking into the sea from areas such as the Greenland ice sheet. Most scientists working at the poles predict a one metre rise by 2100. The US Geological Survey has predicted a 1.5 metre rise. As Hamilton points out: "It is only the first metre that matters".</i></b></p></blockquote><p>The year is 2009, not 2100, while the volume of melted glacial ice has yet to reach that of 1,000,000,000 elephants.</p><p>Bill I.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:be519c0b-574f-484a-a7dc-9451ea12f0ed"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:be519c0b-574f-484a-a7dc-9451ea12f0ed" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:be519c0b-574f-484a-a7dc-9451ea12f0ed')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:be519c0b-574f-484a-a7dc-9451ea12f0ed" class="high-recommended">(10)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=be519c0b-574f-484a-a7dc-9451ea12f0ed&commenterUserName=WTIngle&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:be519c0b-574f-484a-a7dc-9451ea12f0ed" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-26"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Hejz" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="Hejz"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Hejz"> Hejz </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 2:51AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>Fear is the most valuable commodity in the Universe.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:4e3305ae-af53-4414-9d90-14b40810f218"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:4e3305ae-af53-4414-9d90-14b40810f218" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:4e3305ae-af53-4414-9d90-14b40810f218')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:4e3305ae-af53-4414-9d90-14b40810f218" class="high-recommended">(14)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=4e3305ae-af53-4414-9d90-14b40810f218&commenterUserName=Hejz&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:4e3305ae-af53-4414-9d90-14b40810f218" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-27"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/cybernaught2009" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="cybernaught2009"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/cybernaught2009"> cybernaught2009 </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 5:35AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>Two problems: a growing lack of water (especially in dry and overpopulated countries), and the threat of too much water (flooding caused by melting ice).</p><p>Solution: "mine" the glaciers and ship the ice to countries which are short of water. This would help to (i) diminish the threat from flooding, (ii) help to grow food in dry countries, (iii) help to replenish the water table of these countries (essentially the potentially dangerous flood waters of the Arctic and Antarctic would be stored underground).</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:d691cea1-25d1-4e1f-8a40-f96c9f87d7ea"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:d691cea1-25d1-4e1f-8a40-f96c9f87d7ea" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:d691cea1-25d1-4e1f-8a40-f96c9f87d7ea')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:d691cea1-25d1-4e1f-8a40-f96c9f87d7ea" class="high-recommended">(5)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=d691cea1-25d1-4e1f-8a40-f96c9f87d7ea&commenterUserName=cybernaught2009&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:d691cea1-25d1-4e1f-8a40-f96c9f87d7ea" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-28"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Teratornis" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/store/12/5/bc66fe10-1c90-46b1-8561-b69d233f27ef.Small.jpg" height="60" width="60" alt="Teratornis"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Teratornis"> Teratornis </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 5:36AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p><b>CoconutJoe</b>:</p><blockquote><p>I really can't believe that people can deny that this is happening.</p></blockquote><p>You're not a psychologist, then. See the <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model">Kübler-Ross model</a>. Kübler-Ross developed her model to describe a person's psychological response to news of his or her impending death, but it also maps nicely onto the psychological response to news of anthropogenic global warming. Deniers are obviously stuck on stage 1. Those who aren't totally insane will eventually work their way through the remaining steps, at a pace proportional to their intelligence and emotional maturity: anger, bargaining, depression, and finally acceptance. The impetus will be the steadily increasing torrent of bad news from climate researchers. If Greenland is scaring scientists today, imagine what scientists will be finding in 2020, 2030, etc.</p><p>Since we are pushing the Earth into a completely different state from anything in the history of our species, we can't possibly predict all the things that will happen. But we can be reasonably sure most of them will be bad. Because that's what generally happens when people screw around with complex systems they don't understand. (To see how this works, spill a drink on your computer, or remove some parts at random from a car and hammer them back in differently. Until you actually break something you don't understand, you don't know what the failure modes are going to look like.)</p><p>Thus we can safely predict that in the coming years, the news from ClimateLand will get steadily worse and <i>worse</i> and <b>worse</b> and <b><i>worse</i></b>. Eventually the deniers who are not irretrievably insane will have to pull their heads out of their arses, face facts, and apologize to Al Gore.</p><p>If it takes London under water to see that last part, it might almost be worth it. Particularly as I live nowhere near a coastline.</p><p>AGW isn't quite as bad as death, because death is inevitable no matter what, whereas AGW will only occur if most people continue to be stupid. Given that most people have always been stupid, maybe that's as good as death, but the game is not over until it's over. As long as there is a chance that we can persuade most people to not be stupid, <i>we must keep trying</i>. Because, after all, most people are smart enough to walk down the street without usually getting run over by a bus. We have to craft our message so it can cut through to that minimal vestige of intelligence that all humans must have to live without constant institutional care, the bit of working gray matter that keeps them out of the way of speeding buses.</p><p>In June 1940 when Britain stood alone and stared down Hitler across a narrow strip of ocean, the smart money was not on Britain to last long. Certainly Hitler expected Britain to fall, and maybe Churchill too. But as they say in sports, you have to play the games. The outcome isn't determined until the final whistle blows.</p><p>The final whistle hasn't blown, and we haven't lost yet. Don't look at the scoreboard, just get in the game and make some plays. Perhaps once again in human affairs many will end up owing much to few.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:433f1089-82a8-43c3-8d8a-6efdbe208b38"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:433f1089-82a8-43c3-8d8a-6efdbe208b38" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:433f1089-82a8-43c3-8d8a-6efdbe208b38')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:433f1089-82a8-43c3-8d8a-6efdbe208b38" class="high-recommended">(103)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=433f1089-82a8-43c3-8d8a-6efdbe208b38&commenterUserName=Teratornis&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:433f1089-82a8-43c3-8d8a-6efdbe208b38" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-29"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Glewis1000" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="Glewis1000"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Glewis1000"> Glewis1000 </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 5:51AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>We should just ignore "the global warming is a hoax" conspiracy theorists. There is more scientific consensus that global warming is happening and is human caused, than on Newton's Laws of Thermodynamics. These guys have no peer-reviewed evidence to back themselves up. Global warming doesn't suit their reality, so they deny it is happening. It is scary, but understandable why there are so many of these cranks around. Until mostly recently the media has given previously unknown scientists with no peer-reviewed climate research, plenty of space to air their inaccurate opinions. Many of them it turns out have been sponsored by the fossil fuel industry. The media has a had a big role in causing people to doubt the scientists.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:9f886d9d-ceae-43d5-89da-0efd87d20144"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:9f886d9d-ceae-43d5-89da-0efd87d20144" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:9f886d9d-ceae-43d5-89da-0efd87d20144')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:9f886d9d-ceae-43d5-89da-0efd87d20144" class="high-recommended">(48)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=9f886d9d-ceae-43d5-89da-0efd87d20144&commenterUserName=Glewis1000&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:9f886d9d-ceae-43d5-89da-0efd87d20144" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-30"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/oldcon" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="oldcon"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/oldcon"> oldcon </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 6:00AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>The Greenland Ice Sheet has survived earlier periods of global warming and grown in size. It'll survive this latest shrinking and those which will occur in the future.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:6fc82ee3-9798-4000-a726-5bafcfb258e1"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:6fc82ee3-9798-4000-a726-5bafcfb258e1" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:6fc82ee3-9798-4000-a726-5bafcfb258e1')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:6fc82ee3-9798-4000-a726-5bafcfb258e1" class="high-recommended">(11)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=6fc82ee3-9798-4000-a726-5bafcfb258e1&commenterUserName=oldcon&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:6fc82ee3-9798-4000-a726-5bafcfb258e1" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-31"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Novelist" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/store/1/9/a1fd9bf8-6188-40e3-999e-c496b3338858.Small.jpg" height="60" width="60" alt="Novelist"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Novelist"> Novelist </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 6:01AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body comment-blocked"> This comment has been removed by a moderator. Replies may also be deleted. </div> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-32"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/NewPuritan" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="NewPuritan"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/NewPuritan"> NewPuritan </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 6:13AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>"This is also the season for science in Greenland."</p><p>- This is also clearly the silly season for global warming scare mongering propaganda!</p><p>"If the Greenland ice sheet disappeared sea levels around the world would rise by seven metres"</p><p>- Why even mention this when climate change scientists agree that sea level rises over the next 100 years will be measured in centimetres not metres. It's like saying if the sun switched off it would get really cold and you'l all die!</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:adb06f87-1e31-4a46-bf53-8da9b569a665"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:adb06f87-1e31-4a46-bf53-8da9b569a665" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:adb06f87-1e31-4a46-bf53-8da9b569a665')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:adb06f87-1e31-4a46-bf53-8da9b569a665" class="high-recommended">(14)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=adb06f87-1e31-4a46-bf53-8da9b569a665&commenterUserName=NewPuritan&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:adb06f87-1e31-4a46-bf53-8da9b569a665" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-33"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Monkeybiz" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/store/7/10/c7ace639-8be7-4e77-aa95-8b6293e4d52d.Small.jpg" height="60" width="60" alt="Monkeybiz"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Monkeybiz"> Monkeybiz </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 6:20AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>Interesting to read this piece given the exchange that occurred yesterday on the "Green socialism" thread. Still, I note a distinct absence of GW deniers, "the world is cooling" claimants and "sea levels not on the rise" statements so far. Maybe they're still abed? Or maybe they're saving it for oped pieces where the writing is less direct.</p><p>Predicting this complex behaviour is clearly trickier than predicting how fast a glacier will move.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:e064ab69-27f2-4e87-85eb-71435b39be83"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:e064ab69-27f2-4e87-85eb-71435b39be83" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:e064ab69-27f2-4e87-85eb-71435b39be83')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:e064ab69-27f2-4e87-85eb-71435b39be83" class="high-recommended">(11)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=e064ab69-27f2-4e87-85eb-71435b39be83&commenterUserName=Monkeybiz&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:e064ab69-27f2-4e87-85eb-71435b39be83" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-34"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Monkeybiz" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/store/7/10/c7ace639-8be7-4e77-aa95-8b6293e4d52d.Small.jpg" height="60" width="60" alt="Monkeybiz"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Monkeybiz"> Monkeybiz </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 6:21AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>Ah, no. Here they are.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:c9e322e6-aa2d-41df-ac02-e529cb009fe0"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:c9e322e6-aa2d-41df-ac02-e529cb009fe0" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:c9e322e6-aa2d-41df-ac02-e529cb009fe0')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:c9e322e6-aa2d-41df-ac02-e529cb009fe0" class="high-recommended">(8)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=c9e322e6-aa2d-41df-ac02-e529cb009fe0&commenterUserName=Monkeybiz&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:c9e322e6-aa2d-41df-ac02-e529cb009fe0" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-35"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/GrahamCox" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/store/4/10/34fce74e-2f19-4da1-8a1a-1a88493efc82.Small.png" height="60" width="60" alt="GrahamCox"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/GrahamCox"> GrahamCox </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 6:22AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Trusted"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>I mentioned it on another thread but it seems to have gone, but while this 10:10 logo is quite artful, it seems to be made of aluminium, one of the most environmentally costly metals to refine. And then machined, using even more energy. Wouldn't it have been putting your money where your mouth is to make it from some sustainable material, even if it is only a token gesture?</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:f79af275-cc31-4e81-a793-ac22892873c5"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:f79af275-cc31-4e81-a793-ac22892873c5" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:f79af275-cc31-4e81-a793-ac22892873c5')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:f79af275-cc31-4e81-a793-ac22892873c5" class="high-recommended">(8)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=f79af275-cc31-4e81-a793-ac22892873c5&commenterUserName=GrahamCox&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:f79af275-cc31-4e81-a793-ac22892873c5" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-36"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Stealthbong" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/store/2/3/52abb290-7aa6-483f-930b-7f1e636d586e.Small.png" height="60" width="60" alt="Stealthbong"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Stealthbong"> Stealthbong </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 6:27AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body comment-blocked"> This comment has been removed by a moderator. Replies may also be deleted. </div> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-37"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Teratornis" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/store/12/5/bc66fe10-1c90-46b1-8561-b69d233f27ef.Small.jpg" height="60" width="60" alt="Teratornis"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Teratornis"> Teratornis </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 6:36AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p><b>cybernaught2009</b>:</p><blockquote><p>Two problems: a growing lack of water (especially in dry and overpopulated countries), and the threat of too much water (flooding caused by melting ice).</p><p>Solution: "mine" the glaciers and ship the ice to countries which are short of water. This would help to (i) diminish the threat from flooding, (ii) help to grow food in dry countries, (iii) help to replenish the water table of these countries (essentially the potentially dangerous flood waters of the Arctic and Antarctic would be stored underground).</p></blockquote><p>Wrong, not a solution.</p><p>1. Shipping the water to dry countries won't stop the water from eventually entering the oceans. Any water which is available to grow crops will eventually enter rivers as runoff or evaporate and then rain out somewhere else. Adding water to the water cycle anywhere on the planet causes that water to enter the oceans eventually. Recharging aquifers doesn't help because people are sucking water out of them already - that's why water tables have dropped in many dry countries. Any water you put underground will eventually come up in somebody's well, enter the water cycle, and hit the oceans later.</p><p>2. The shipping cost is far too high. Even though supertankers are the most efficient freight vehicles we have, they still have a shipping cost of several dollars per barrel. That's way too expensive for agricultural water. Otherwise people would already be doing it. Consider that even a country like Saudi Arabia which could afford to bring in water via ocean tankers (for example, from freshwater lakes or rivers) does not. Instead, Saudi Arabia relies on fossil water and <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoaiba_power_and_desalination_plant">oil-fired combined power and desalination plants</a>. (Obviously if Saudi Arabia wants to become sustainable, i.e. avoid eventual collapse when its oil runs out, it will have to desalinate ocean water with its most abundant renewable resource: the <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_desalination">blazing desert sun</a>.)</p><p>3. Shipping water around in large quantities would burn up more petroleum and contribute to even more global warming.</p><p>4. As with many geoengineering schemes to mitigate global warming, your scheme would do nothing to slow <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification">ocean acidification</a> - another severe environmental consequence of anthropogenic carbon dioxide.</p><p>The best way to stop global warming is to stop doing what we do to cause global warming. Much as the best way to relieve the pain that results from hitting one's head with a hammer is to stop hitting one's head with a hammer. It might be entertaining to come up with elaborate Rube Goldberg schemes to cushion the hammer blows, but it's more straightforward to stop swinging the hammer.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:6bf448ca-4d04-4bef-9e6a-a66abcfe91b4"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:6bf448ca-4d04-4bef-9e6a-a66abcfe91b4" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:6bf448ca-4d04-4bef-9e6a-a66abcfe91b4')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:6bf448ca-4d04-4bef-9e6a-a66abcfe91b4" class="high-recommended">(34)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=6bf448ca-4d04-4bef-9e6a-a66abcfe91b4&commenterUserName=Teratornis&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:6bf448ca-4d04-4bef-9e6a-a66abcfe91b4" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-38"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/MilesSmiles" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/store/15/6/4fbccc82-1de7-421f-86e7-37edb1913672.Small.jpg" height="60" width="60" alt="MilesSmiles"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/MilesSmiles"> MilesSmiles </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 6:40AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <blockquote><p>It's probably a waste of time trying to explain to the mouth-breathing "denier" fraternity</p></blockquote><p>There is no probability about it. It is a waste of time.</p><p>The situation we are in is as if some terrible epidemic was sweeping the globe, doctors understood what was causing it and how to cure it, but a bunch of religious lunatics were preventing them from doing so. Presumably, those who did not wish to die of the disease could invoke a right of self-defence against those preventing a cure.</p><p>At what point can we invoke the justification of self-defence against climate change deniers? I don't think it is too far off. Ten years maybe?</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:82788b62-b8b6-4592-b966-75d232d4b175"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:82788b62-b8b6-4592-b966-75d232d4b175" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:82788b62-b8b6-4592-b966-75d232d4b175')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:82788b62-b8b6-4592-b966-75d232d4b175" class="high-recommended">(38)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=82788b62-b8b6-4592-b966-75d232d4b175&commenterUserName=MilesSmiles&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:82788b62-b8b6-4592-b966-75d232d4b175" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-39"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/cherf" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="cherf"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/cherf"> cherf </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 6:52AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>"With his spiky hair and ripped T-shirt, Hamilton could be a rugged glaciologist straight from central casting."</p><p>You realize you lost us all right here? Glaciologist? What is that exactly? Do you need spiky hair to be one? And if Central Casting is involved, one might expect to need an agent? What does the agent get? 10%? 20?</p><p>This is not news my friend. It's not reporting. But is a masterful piece of rhetoric.</p><p>"When Hamilton and Stearns processed their first measurements of the glacier's speed, they thought they had made another mistake. They found it was marching forwards at a greater pace than a glacier had ever been observed to flow before."</p><p>I loved this bit: "at a greater pace than a glacier had ever been observed to flow before." So tell, us, how long has anyone been watching glaciers move? I imagine its a hard position to fill. Sort of like 'Official Watcher of Drying Paint'. Doesn't stand out on a resume does it?</p><p>You people are already a joke. At least attempt something substantial.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:4b3e75f3-240b-452d-9518-28ed959df354"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:4b3e75f3-240b-452d-9518-28ed959df354" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:4b3e75f3-240b-452d-9518-28ed959df354')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:4b3e75f3-240b-452d-9518-28ed959df354" class="high-recommended">(11)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=4b3e75f3-240b-452d-9518-28ed959df354&commenterUserName=cherf&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:4b3e75f3-240b-452d-9518-28ed959df354" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-40"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/CommunityMod" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="CommunityMod"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/CommunityMod"> CommunityMod </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 6:52AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Editor"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/microapps/server-side-pluck/images/icons_staff_28.gif" width="28" height="28" title="Staff" alt="Staff"/> <span>Staff</span> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>It seems some comments between about 0300 and 0530 have disappeared. This is probably a result of a problem with a data centre migration that happened earlier. It's being investigated, and hopefully should be sorted out soon.</p><p>Sorry for the inconvenience, and thank you for your contributions so far.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:c4a2b4f9-fe51-4a2e-bc4e-c174c13e7438"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:c4a2b4f9-fe51-4a2e-bc4e-c174c13e7438" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:c4a2b4f9-fe51-4a2e-bc4e-c174c13e7438')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:c4a2b4f9-fe51-4a2e-bc4e-c174c13e7438" class="high-recommended">(5)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=c4a2b4f9-fe51-4a2e-bc4e-c174c13e7438&commenterUserName=CommunityMod&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:c4a2b4f9-fe51-4a2e-bc4e-c174c13e7438" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-41"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Teratornis" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/store/12/5/bc66fe10-1c90-46b1-8561-b69d233f27ef.Small.jpg" height="60" width="60" alt="Teratornis"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Teratornis"> Teratornis </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 7:02AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p><b>GrahamCox</b>:</p><blockquote><p>I mentioned it on another thread but it seems to have gone, but while this 10:10 logo is quite artful, it seems to be made of aluminium, one of the most environmentally costly metals to refine. And then machined, using even more energy. Wouldn't it have been putting your money where your mouth is to make it from some sustainable material, even if it is only a token gesture?</p></blockquote><p>Aluminium is energetically costly to refine from ore, but not too bad to recycle from scrap, as was done to make these logos. Of course the scrap could have been used for something else, reducing the need to refine more aluminium from ore. Competing for metal on the scrap market shifts somebody's demand onto the virgin metal market.</p><p>A renewable material to consider might have been to press the logo from shredded grass, sawdust, or waste paper, by using a <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bkoqu4Z8ruY">pellet mill</a>. The resulting logo wouldn't have been very durable. But you could burn it to keep warm for a few minutes in winter. Or toss it on the compost pile in 2011.</p><p><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioplastic">Bioplastic</a> would be another option.</p><p>It is pretty token, though, when you count up how many of these logos it would take to make one airliner.</p><p>In light of how fast Greenland is melting, maybe we need to up the stakes a bit, with a 90:09 campaign (90% cut in carbon footprint by the end of 2009).</p><p>However, rather than a percentage cut, which would leave the carbon hogs still emitting way too much (a 90% cut in Bono's footprint would still total up to dozens of me I suspect), we need to shoot for one tonne of carbon dioxide equivalent per person per year. Which would require some robust changes in most people's behavior and the rapid construction of lots of wind farms and nuclear power plants.</p><p>Obviously there is a reason why Franny is famous and I am not. She knows well enough to start people off with easily attainable baby steps, like a wimpy 10% cut. Trying to kick the carbon habit cold turkey would put everyone into a withdrawal panic.</p><p>Maybe she's waiting until 2015 or so to broach the subject of composting our poop, or better yet recovering its available energy with methane digesters. Have to bring people along slowly. The news from ClimateLand will have to grow correspondingly more dire before most people would be open to that idea.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:16243de9-1a93-4050-9dd7-402e93b16cea"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:16243de9-1a93-4050-9dd7-402e93b16cea" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:16243de9-1a93-4050-9dd7-402e93b16cea')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:16243de9-1a93-4050-9dd7-402e93b16cea" class="high-recommended">(11)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=16243de9-1a93-4050-9dd7-402e93b16cea&commenterUserName=Teratornis&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:16243de9-1a93-4050-9dd7-402e93b16cea" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-42"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Ariege" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="Ariege"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Ariege"> Ariege </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 7:13AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>I am so sick of sharing this world with the likes of climate change deniers. Here's an idea: lets gives all climate change deniers a free piece of seafront property, somewhere desirable of course. In exchange, the rest of us should receive little plots at higher altitudes........... come on climate change deniers, put your money where your slack jawed mouths are, move to coastal Bangladesh, buy apartments in Amsterdam.</p><p>I think perhaps it is too late to avoid catastrophic climate change, but of course we could all start planning how to take revenge on the climate change deniers and the greenwashers.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:2ed6f8d5-fc50-4c2d-8c0b-69e59d3a6f38"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:2ed6f8d5-fc50-4c2d-8c0b-69e59d3a6f38" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:2ed6f8d5-fc50-4c2d-8c0b-69e59d3a6f38')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:2ed6f8d5-fc50-4c2d-8c0b-69e59d3a6f38" class="high-recommended">(23)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=2ed6f8d5-fc50-4c2d-8c0b-69e59d3a6f38&commenterUserName=Ariege&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:2ed6f8d5-fc50-4c2d-8c0b-69e59d3a6f38" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-43"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/cybernaught2009" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="cybernaught2009"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/cybernaught2009"> cybernaught2009 </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 7:15AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>Teratornis (01 Sep 09, 6:36am) writes: "The best way to stop global warming is to stop doing what we do to cause global warming".</p><p>Agreed, but I doubt that the world's population will be persuaded of this in time; basic need and short-term self interest are political trumps). My suggestion (01 Sep 09, 5:35am) is therefore intended as a way of limiting some of the consequences.</p><p>As to your specific points:</p><p>1. I agree that the water used in agriculture needs to be used carefully in order to avoid simply returning it directly to the oceans. I see your point about it doing so indirectly. But we could keep refilling the underground aquifers with glacial water and with desalinated water (produced, as you suggest, using solar power).</p><p>2. The shipping cost is high, but the cost of flooding is also high. It would benefit both dry and low-lying countries (and all coastal cities) to ship the water. The shipping cost should thus be subsidized on a global basis.</p><p>3. Shipping water would burn up more petroleum, but technology could be developed to minimize this (e.g. nuclear-powered sailing ships).</p><p>I agree with your suggestion of using solar power to desalinate water.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:ec0b4c75-dfc0-4c9d-aea2-4800e87b73f0"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:ec0b4c75-dfc0-4c9d-aea2-4800e87b73f0" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:ec0b4c75-dfc0-4c9d-aea2-4800e87b73f0')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:ec0b4c75-dfc0-4c9d-aea2-4800e87b73f0" class="high-recommended">(2)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=ec0b4c75-dfc0-4c9d-aea2-4800e87b73f0&commenterUserName=cybernaught2009&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:ec0b4c75-dfc0-4c9d-aea2-4800e87b73f0" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-44"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Imlessbiasedthanyou" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="Imlessbiasedthanyou"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Imlessbiasedthanyou"> Imlessbiasedthanyou </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 7:20AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>Thanks moderator.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:3a6ae90b-1766-481f-89f5-319a2af4d2b6"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:3a6ae90b-1766-481f-89f5-319a2af4d2b6" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:3a6ae90b-1766-481f-89f5-319a2af4d2b6')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:3a6ae90b-1766-481f-89f5-319a2af4d2b6" class="normal-recommended">(1)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=3a6ae90b-1766-481f-89f5-319a2af4d2b6&commenterUserName=Imlessbiasedthanyou&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:3a6ae90b-1766-481f-89f5-319a2af4d2b6" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-45"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Teratornis" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/store/12/5/bc66fe10-1c90-46b1-8561-b69d233f27ef.Small.jpg" height="60" width="60" alt="Teratornis"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Teratornis"> Teratornis </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 7:22AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p><b>cherf</b>:</p><blockquote><p>I loved this bit: "at a greater pace than a glacier had ever been observed to flow before." So tell, us, how long has anyone been watching glaciers move? I imagine its a hard position to fill. Sort of like 'Official Watcher of Drying Paint'. Doesn't stand out on a resume does it?</p><p>You people are already a joke. At least attempt something substantial.</p></blockquote><p>Have you heard of Wikipedia? They have an elementary overview in their <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaciology">glaciology</a> article.</p><p>Scientists have been studying glaciers for some time. The motivations are obvious - but not to you it seems. The <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Glaciological_Society">International Glaciological Society</a> was founded in 1936, and at the time glaciology was already an established scientific discipline.</p><p>So, do you generally consider the limits of reality to be fixed by the limits of your knowledge? For example, if you haven't heard of some country, it probably therefore does not exist? I'm wondering if you believe that when you close your eyes, the rest of the world disappears too.</p><p>This type of thinking can be dangerous, for example when heading into blind bends on a roadway. Many people assume that since they cannot see around the bend, the path must be clear. If they cannot see danger, despite the possibility that danger could be hidden, then there isn't any danger.</p><p>It's interesting, though, to hear an ignoramus who never heard of glaciology calling the Guardian a joke. The real joke is seeing clowns who couldn't exist a week without the benefits of science ridiculing the people who enable them to live.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:1727555d-8abe-4b6e-8fb9-73c44bbc2c9f"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:1727555d-8abe-4b6e-8fb9-73c44bbc2c9f" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:1727555d-8abe-4b6e-8fb9-73c44bbc2c9f')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:1727555d-8abe-4b6e-8fb9-73c44bbc2c9f" class="high-recommended">(51)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=1727555d-8abe-4b6e-8fb9-73c44bbc2c9f&commenterUserName=Teratornis&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:1727555d-8abe-4b6e-8fb9-73c44bbc2c9f" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-46"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Bluecloud" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/store/13/10/ad56c073-f255-41a5-8a36-76a0899faa9d.Small.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="Bluecloud"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/Bluecloud"> Bluecloud </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 7:25AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>Greetings from Hamburg, one of the world's busiest harbours.</p><p>Just look around you. Here I am surrounded by huge tanks full of gas and oil. There are trucks thundering past, container ships full of sex toys from China; it's busy here. This cannot continue, we just don't have the resources.</p><p>Time to stop being part of the problem. Become part of the solution instead.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:274cb8d6-1914-4be2-b62b-ec4e6fbdc732"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:274cb8d6-1914-4be2-b62b-ec4e6fbdc732" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:274cb8d6-1914-4be2-b62b-ec4e6fbdc732')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:274cb8d6-1914-4be2-b62b-ec4e6fbdc732" class="high-recommended">(28)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=274cb8d6-1914-4be2-b62b-ec4e6fbdc732&commenterUserName=Bluecloud&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:274cb8d6-1914-4be2-b62b-ec4e6fbdc732" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-47"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/ByGeorge" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="ByGeorge"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/ByGeorge"> ByGeorge </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 7:28AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>Very scary! Than goodness the government, with banks and banks of experts, are taking this as seriously as the CiFers. Why, just this morning I find I will have to pay even more for that litre of climate changing petrol - phew - some action at last! Good job I can leave the car at home and use the free...er cheap...er prohibitively expensive public transport.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:d22ace1f-924a-4daf-b1dd-42a65a67fd41"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:d22ace1f-924a-4daf-b1dd-42a65a67fd41" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:d22ace1f-924a-4daf-b1dd-42a65a67fd41')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:d22ace1f-924a-4daf-b1dd-42a65a67fd41" class="high-recommended">(6)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=d22ace1f-924a-4daf-b1dd-42a65a67fd41&commenterUserName=ByGeorge&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:d22ace1f-924a-4daf-b1dd-42a65a67fd41" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-48"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/GuardianWatch1" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/store/13/5/cdb0dfa1-2528-47aa-a5d5-d22d86184616.Small.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="GuardianWatch1"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/GuardianWatch1"> GuardianWatch1 </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 7:29AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body comment-blocked"> This comment has been removed by a moderator. Replies may also be deleted. </div> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-49"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/KillerJoe" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="KillerJoe"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/KillerJoe"> KillerJoe </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 7:34AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>I have no problem accepting global warming.</p><p>What I find annoying is initiatives like 10:10, where we're told that everyone must reduce their carbon footprint equally, when what's needed is that certain people reduce their carbon footprints hugely, and it takes Governments to make them do it.</p><p>The principle of 10:10 will not make the gretest offenders (ie the rich) think that they should do their bit too. It will make them think they don't have to, becuase everyone is going to cut down instead.</p><p>I am uneasy about the 'rationing by price' aspect of the current Green movement as a whole, to be honest.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:b7ef055c-d7ff-4e87-9a7d-a689f252171b"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:b7ef055c-d7ff-4e87-9a7d-a689f252171b" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:b7ef055c-d7ff-4e87-9a7d-a689f252171b')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:b7ef055c-d7ff-4e87-9a7d-a689f252171b" class="high-recommended">(8)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=b7ef055c-d7ff-4e87-9a7d-a689f252171b&commenterUserName=KillerJoe&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:b7ef055c-d7ff-4e87-9a7d-a689f252171b" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="pluck-content" id="comment-50"> <li class="pluck-comment">  <div class="pluck-comment-author"> <h3> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/obrac" class="author-profile-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://sitelife.guardian.co.uk/ver1.0/Content/images/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt="obrac"> </a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/obrac"> obrac </a> </h3> <p class="posted-time">1 Sep 2009, 7:36AM</p> </div> <span class="author-tier"> <a class="rollover" title="Featured"> </a> </span> <div class="pluck-comment-body"> <p>Of course Global Warming is happening. Unless you disbelieve your own eyes you simply have to look at how much glaciers have receeded in the Alps here in Europe for evidence. Take a walk up to a glacier and look at the torrents of water melting each day between May and November. Have a look at the glacier rims and see how high they were 50 years ago compared to today, a scar is left high up above every single glacier tongue showing where they were 100 years ago. Photos show how much ice has gone in just ten years. Natural evolution, maybe. Global warming, definitely. Is it too late, probably.</p> </div> </li> <li class="pluck-comment-tools"> <ul id="CommentKey:0c87f606-f0d3-453b-bfb6-6c45911a4d94"> <li class="recomended"> <a id="pluck-single-comment-CommentKey:0c87f606-f0d3-453b-bfb6-6c45911a4d94" href="javascript:void(0)" title="Recommend this comment." onclick="return onClickRecommendation('CommentKey:0c87f606-f0d3-453b-bfb6-6c45911a4d94')" class="recommend"> Recommend? </a> <span id="pluck-single-comment-no-CommentKey:0c87f606-f0d3-453b-bfb6-6c45911a4d94" class="high-recommended">(16)</span> </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a href="javascript:void(0)" title="Report abuse" class="report-abuse">Report abuse </a> </li> <li class="clip"><a class="anchor-based-login-required" href="/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add?commentId=0c87f606-f0d3-453b-bfb6-6c45911a4d94&commenterUserName=obrac&r2ContentIdForSSP=352359905" name="" title="Clip this comment.">Clip</a> | </li> <li class="link"><a href="?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:0c87f606-f0d3-453b-bfb6-6c45911a4d94" name="" title="Link this comment.">Link</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <span id="end-of-comments"></span> </div> </div> <div id="pluck-show-all-comments" class="pluck-comments-container"> <p><b>Showing first 50 comments | <a href="?showallcomments=true#comment-51" title="Click to go to all comments on one page">Go to all comments</a> | <a href="?showallcomments=true#end-of-comments" title="Click to go to latest comment">Go to latest comment</a></b></p> </div> <script type="text/javascript" language="javascript"> // <![CDATA[ if (true) { insertStyleSheet('styles/wide/pluck-on.css'); } // ]]> </script>  Comments are now closed for this entry.  <div class="pluck-off-error"> <h2>Comments</h2> <p>Sorry, commenting is not available at this time. <span>Please try again later.</span></p> </div> <div id="pluck-error-area" style="display:none"> <p>Apologies, something has gone wrong and this action cannot be completed. <span>Please try again later.</span></p> </div> <div style="display:none;"> <div id="comment-box-wrapper" style="display:none;"> <div id="comment-box-pluck"> <div class="comment-author"> <ul> <li class="comment-author-img"><img id="user-image" width="30" height="30"/></li> <li class="comment-author-name">Logged in as <strong id="user-name"></strong> <a id="sign-out-link" href="#" title="click here to log out">click here to log out</a> </li> <li class="author-role"></li> </ul> </div> <div id="comment-box-edit"> <div id="blockquote-button"> <input id="add-blockquotes" type="button" value="blockquote"/> <input id="add-bolds" type="button" value="bold"/> <input id="add-italics" type="button" value="italic"/> <input id="add-links" type="button" value="link"/> <p>You have <span id="chars-left"></span> characters left</p> </div> <fieldset> <textarea rows="16" cols="50" id="comment-body" name="comment-body"></textarea> </fieldset> <div id="submit"> <p class="msg">Please read our <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardian.co.uk/talkpolicy" id="community-standards-link">community standards</a>.</p> <p><input type="submit" disabled="true" value="Post your comment" id="submit-comment" name="submit-comment"/></p> </div> </div> <div id="comment-box-progress" style="display:none;"> <p>Loading...............</p> </div> <div id="comment-close-confirmation-area"> <p>Closing this window without pressing "Post your comment" will result in your words being lost. <br/> Are you sure? <input type="button" value="Yes, close" id="comment-close-confirm"/> <input type="button" value="No, return to text" id="comment-close-cancel"/> </p> </div> <div id="comment-premoderation-area"> <p>Thank you for your comment. 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id="global-jobs-1-link"> <a href="#global-jobs-1" class="active">UK</a> </li> <li id="global-jobs-2-link"> <a href="#global-jobs-2" class="inactive">USA</a> </li> </ul> <div class="pane-wrapper"> <div id="global-jobs-1" class="global-jobs-pane tab-toggle-pane"> <h3 class="js-hider">UK</h3> <div class="capsule jobsbox"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://jobs.guardian.co.uk/searchjobs/" onsubmit="return doSearchAllSubmitUK( this );"> <fieldset> <input type="text" class="text plain-search" id="freetext-searchalljobs" name="freetext" value="Search all environment jobs" onfocus="this.value='';"/> <input type="hidden" name="csr" value="environment"/> <input type="hidden" name="keyword" id="keyword-searchalljobs" value=""/> <input type="submit" class="submit" name="go" value="Go"/> <input type="hidden" name="gusrc" value="gu_jobs_box_Environment"/> <input type="hidden" name="link" value="Environment_jbx_go"/> <input type="hidden" name="industry" value="141"/> </fieldset> </form> <p class="find-a-job"> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://jobs.guardian.co.uk/jobs/environment?gusrc=gu_jobs_box_Environment&link=Environment_jbx_brsesec&INTCMP=ILCJOBTXT262" name="&lid={jobsBox}{Browse environment jobs}&lpos={jobsBox}{1}">Browse environment jobs</a> </p> <ul class="jobs"> <li class="odd"><h4> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://jobs.guardian.co.uk/job/947624/energy-analyst?RSSSearch=0&gusrc=gu_jobs_box_Environment&link=Environment_jbx_vac&INTCMP=ILCJOBTXT262" name="&lid={jobsBox}{Energy Analyst|Environment}&lpos={jobsBox}{2}">Energy Analyst</a></h4> <p><span class="employer">graduate recruitment bureau.</span></p> <p><span class="location">energy analyst is to be both the flexible contract….</span></p> <p><span class="wage">£28-£40k.</span></p> </li> <li><h4> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://jobs.guardian.co.uk/job/949240/senior-energy-policy-advisor-corporate?RSSSearch=0&gusrc=gu_jobs_box_Environment&link=Environment_jbx_vac&INTCMP=ILCJOBTXT262" name="&lid={jobsBox}{Senior Energy Policy Advisor - Corporate|Environment}&lpos={jobsBox}{3}">Senior Energy Policy Advisor - Corporate</a></h4> <p><span class="employer">allen & york.</span></p> <p><span class="location">senior energy policy opportunity with a large corp….</span></p> <p><span class="wage">£35-50K.</span></p> </li> <li class="odd"><h4> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://jobs.guardian.co.uk/job/949251/business-development-executive?RSSSearch=0&gusrc=gu_jobs_box_Environment&link=Environment_jbx_vac&INTCMP=ILCJOBTXT262" name="&lid={jobsBox}{Business Development Executive|Environment}&lpos={jobsBox}{4}">Business Development Executive</a></h4> <p><span class="employer">allen & york.</span></p> <p><span class="location">our client, an ngo is recruiting for a business de….</span></p> <p><span class="wage">£35-38K.</span></p> </li> </ul> <script type="text/javascript"> //<![CDATA[ function doSearchAllSubmitUK( form ) { var jobsSectionToSearch = 'environment'; var freeText = 'environment'; var searchTextField = document.getElementById( 'freetext-searchalljobs' ); var keywordElem = document.getElementById( 'keyword-searchalljobs' ); var isSectionSearch = function() { return jobsSectionToSearch != ''; } var textIsModified = function() { if( isSectionSearch() ) { return ( searchTextField.value != 'Search all ' + freeText + ' jobs' ); } return ( searchTextField.value != 'Search all jobs' ); } if( !textIsModified() ) { keywordElem.value = ''; if( isSectionSearch() ) { form.action = 'http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://jobs.guardian.co.uk/jobs/environment'; return true; } form.action = 'http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://jobs.guardian.co.uk/'; return true; } keywordElem.value = searchTextField.value; if (true) { _hbLink( '{jobsbox-searchalljobs}', '{jobsbox-searchalljobs}{1}' ); } return true; } //]]> </script> </div> </div> <div id="global-jobs-2" class="global-jobs-pane tab-toggle-pane initially-off"> <h3 class="js-hider">USA</h3> <div class="capsule jobsbox"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.guardianjobs.com/" onsubmit="return doSearchAllSubmitUSA( this );"> <fieldset> <input type="text" class="text plain-search" id="freetext-searchalljobs" name="q" value="Search all environment jobs" onfocus="this.value='';"/> <input type="hidden" name="csr" value="environment"/> <input type="hidden" name="keyword" id="keyword-searchalljobs" value=""/> <input type="submit" class="submit" name="go" value="Go"/> <input type="hidden" name="gusrc" value="gu_jobs_box_Environment"/> <input type="hidden" name="link" value="Environment_jbx_go"/> <input type="hidden" name="industry" value="141"/> </fieldset> </form> <p class="find-a-job"> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://jobs.guardian.co.uk/jobs/environment?gusrc=gu_jobs_box_Environment&link=Environment_jbx_brsesec&INTCMP=ILCJOBTXT262" name="&lid={jobsBox}{Browse environment jobs}&lpos={jobsBox}{1}">Browse environment jobs</a> </p> <textarea id="jobs-box-usa-textarea" style="display:none;"> {for result in results} <li> <h4> <a href="${result.url}">${result.jobtitle}</a> </h4> <p> <span class="description">${ result.snippet }</span> <span class="location">${ result.state }</span> </p> </li> {/for} </textarea> <script type="text/javascript"> //<![CDATA[ if (true) { var userip = '193.136.192.57'; var country = 'prt'; var isUSA = (country.toLowerCase() == 'usa') ? true : false; var jobsBoxView = new guardian.r2.JobsBoxView('jobs-box-usa', 'jobs-box-usa-textarea'); var jobsBoxService = new guardian.r2.JobsBoxService('%22Environment%22', userip); /* category, location */ var jobsBoxController = new guardian.r2.JobsBoxController(jobsBoxView, jobsBoxService, isUSA); //view, service, locationIsUSA } //]]> </script> <ul id="jobs-box-usa" class="jobs"> <li class="javascript-on">Loading jobs...</li> </ul> <p class="attribution javascript-on"><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.indeed.com/">jobs</a> by <a title="Job Search" href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038/http://www.indeed.com/"><img alt="Indeed job search" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20091226005038im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/static/83728/common/images/icon_usjobs.gif" width="54" height="19"/></a></p> <script type="text/javascript"> //<![CDATA[ function doSearchAllSubmitUSA( form ) { var jobsSectionToSearch = 'environment'; var freeText = 'environment'; var searchTextField = document.getElementById( 'freetext-searchalljobs' ); var keywordElem = document.getElementById( 'keyword-searchalljobs' ); var isSectionSearch = function() { return jobsSectionToSearch != ''; } var textIsModified = function() { if( isSectionSearch() ) { return ( 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The Sermilik fjord in Greenland: a chilling view of a warming world | Environment | The Guardian