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padding: 0;"><div> <div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style=""><form name="searchbox" class="searchbox mw-inputbox-form-inline" action="/wiki/Special:Search"><div class="cdx-text-input"><input class="mw-searchInput searchboxInput cdx-text-input__input" name="search" placeholder="" size="50" dir="ltr"/></div><input type="hidden" value="Talk:Camille Saint-Saëns/" name="prefix"/> <input type="submit" name="fulltext" value="Search archives" class="cdx-button"/><input type="hidden" value="Search" name="fulltext"/></form></div> </div></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1135653291">@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .article-history{min-width:80%}}</style><table class="article-history tmbox tmbox-notice"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Featured_article_star.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="Featured article"><img alt="Featured article" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Featured_article_star.svg/50px-Featured_article_star.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Featured_article_star.svg/75px-Featured_article_star.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Featured_article_star.svg/100px-Featured_article_star.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="180"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><b>Camille Saint-Saëns</b> is a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_articles" title="Wikipedia:Featured articles">featured article</a>; it (or a previous version of it) has been <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns/archive1" title="Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Camille Saint-Saëns/archive1">identified</a></b> as one of the best articles produced by the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedians" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedians">Wikipedia community</a>. Even so, if you can update or improve it, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Be_bold" title="Wikipedia:Be bold">please do so</a>.</td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Wikipedia-logo-v2.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="Main Page trophy"><img alt="Main Page trophy" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/80/Wikipedia-logo-v2.svg/30px-Wikipedia-logo-v2.svg.png" decoding="async" width="30" height="27" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/80/Wikipedia-logo-v2.svg/45px-Wikipedia-logo-v2.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/80/Wikipedia-logo-v2.svg/60px-Wikipedia-logo-v2.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="103" data-file-height="94"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Today%27s_featured_article/October_9,_2018" title="Wikipedia:Today's featured article/October 9, 2018">Today's featured article</a> on October 9, 2018.</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" style="width:100%"><table class="article-history-milestones" style="width:100%;font-size:90%"><tbody><tr><th colspan="3" style="font-size:110%">Article milestones</th></tr><tr style="text-align:left"><th>Date</th><th>Process</th><th>Result</th></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns&oldid=649231498">February 28, 2015</a></span></td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Peer_review/Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns/archive1" title="Wikipedia:Peer review/Camille Saint-Saëns/archive1">Peer review</a></b></td><td>Reviewed</td></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns&oldid=650863341">March 12, 2015</a></span></td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns/archive1" title="Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Camille Saint-Saëns/archive1">Featured article candidate</a></b></td><td>Promoted</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola_apps_date.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="On this day..."><img alt="On this day..." src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Nuvola_apps_date.svg/20px-Nuvola_apps_date.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Nuvola_apps_date.svg/30px-Nuvola_apps_date.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Nuvola_apps_date.svg/40px-Nuvola_apps_date.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's <a href="/wiki/Main_Page" title="Main Page">Main Page</a> in the <i>"<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Selected_anniversaries" title="Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries">On this day...</a>"</i> column on <a href="/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/804584239" title="Special:PermanentLink/804584239">October 9, 2017</a>, <a href="/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/982355861" title="Special:PermanentLink/982355861">October 9, 2020</a>, <a href="/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/1114531981" title="Special:PermanentLink/1114531981">October 9, 2022</a>, and <a href="/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/1190230538" title="Special:PermanentLink/1190230538">December 16, 2023</a>.</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2">Current status: <b>Featured article</b></td></tr></tbody></table><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1243927654">.mw-parser-output .banner-shell{border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:4px}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell-header{text-align:center;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell-inner{padding:2px 4px;background:#fffaef;color:inherit;border:1px dotted gray}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night 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title="FA-Class article"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Featured_article_star.svg/35px-Featured_article_star.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="35" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Featured_article_star.svg/53px-Featured_article_star.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Featured_article_star.svg/70px-Featured_article_star.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="180"/></a></span></td><td class="banner-shell-header" style="text-align:left;font-weight:normal">This <span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/C%C3%ADrculos_Conc%C3%A9ntricos.svg/16px-C%C3%ADrculos_Conc%C3%A9ntricos.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/C%C3%ADrculos_Conc%C3%A9ntricos.svg/24px-C%C3%ADrculos_Conc%C3%A9ntricos.svg.png 1.5x, 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.mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}</style><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Crystal_personal.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/25px-Crystal_personal.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/38px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/50px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="70" data-file-height="70"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography">Biography</a><span class="wpb-nested-task-force">: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Musicians" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians">Musicians</a></span> </td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Crystal_personal.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/60px-Crystal_personal.svg.png" decoding="async" width="60" height="60" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/90px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/120px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="70" data-file-height="70"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><style 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New members are welcome!<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Composers</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Composers</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Composers</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Composers articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256394742"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table inactive-wikiproject"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:People_icon_dead.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/People_icon_dead.svg/25px-People_icon_dead.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" 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srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/People_icon_dead.svg/60px-People_icon_dead.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/People_icon_dead.svg/80px-People_icon_dead.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="100" data-file-height="100"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article is within the scope of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Pipe_organ" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Pipe organ">WikiProject Pipe organ</a>, a project which is currently considered to be <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:INACTIVEWP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:INACTIVEWP">inactive</a></b>.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Pipe organ</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Pipe organ</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Pipe organ</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Pipe organ articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256394742"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Ballerina-icon.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/Ballerina-icon.jpg/21px-Ballerina-icon.jpg" decoding="async" width="21" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/Ballerina-icon.jpg/32px-Ballerina-icon.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/Ballerina-icon.jpg/42px-Ballerina-icon.jpg 2x" data-file-width="306" data-file-height="367"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Dance" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Dance">Dance</a><span class="wpb-nested-task-force">: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Ballet" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Ballet">Ballet</a></span> </td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Ballerina-icon.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/Ballerina-icon.jpg/50px-Ballerina-icon.jpg" decoding="async" width="50" height="60" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/Ballerina-icon.jpg/75px-Ballerina-icon.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/Ballerina-icon.jpg/100px-Ballerina-icon.jpg 2x" data-file-width="306" data-file-height="367"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Dance" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Dance">WikiProject Dance</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the 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If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Dance" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dance">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Dance</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Dance</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Dance</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Dance articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Ballet_Nacional_de_Cuba_pas_de_deux.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Ballet_Nacional_de_Cuba_pas_de_deux.jpg/22px-Ballet_Nacional_de_Cuba_pas_de_deux.jpg" decoding="async" width="22" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Ballet_Nacional_de_Cuba_pas_de_deux.jpg/34px-Ballet_Nacional_de_Cuba_pas_de_deux.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Ballet_Nacional_de_Cuba_pas_de_deux.jpg/45px-Ballet_Nacional_de_Cuba_pas_de_deux.jpg 2x" data-file-width="928" data-file-height="1040"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article is supported by <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Ballet" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Ballet">WikiProject Ballet</a></b>.</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3" style="padding:0"><table class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="background:transparent;width:100%"><tbody><tr><th style="text-align:left;padding:0.2em 2px 0.2em 0">WikiProject Ballet To-do list:</th></tr><tr><td style="text-align:left;padding:5px;background-color:white;border:1px solid #c0c090;margin-top:5px"> <table style="background:none;color:inherit;width:auto;"> <tbody><tr> <td style="vertical-align:top;"> <span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg/50px-Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg/75px-Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg/100px-Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128"/></a></span><br/><div style="width: 55px; height: 0px;"></div> </td> <td> <div style="position: relative; left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; z-index: 15;">Here are some tasks awaiting attention: <ul style="font-size: 100%; margin: 0px; padding: 0.3em 0px 0.3em 25px;"> <li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_articles" title="Wikipedia:Requested articles">Article requests</a></i> :</b> See the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Ballet/Image_requests" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Ballet/Image requests">Image requests</a> page. Articles: <a href="/wiki/Choo_Chiat_Goh" title="Choo Chiat Goh">Choo Chiat Goh</a>, <a href="/wiki/Vladimir_Bourmeister" title="Vladimir Bourmeister">Vladimir Bourmeister</a>, <a href="/wiki/Columbia_City_Ballet" title="Columbia City Ballet">Columbia City Ballet</a>, <a href="/w/index.php?title=Michael_Cook_(ballet)&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Michael Cook (ballet) (page does not exist)">Michael Cook (ballet)</a>, <a href="/wiki/Peter_Schaufuss" title="Peter Schaufuss">Peter Schaufuss</a>, <a href="/wiki/Cyril_Atanassoff" title="Cyril Atanassoff">Cyril Atanassoff</a>, <a href="/wiki/Post-structuralist_ballet" title="Post-structuralist ballet">Post-structuralist ballet</a></li><li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Cleanup" title="Wikipedia:Cleanup">Cleanup</a></i> :</b> <a href="/wiki/Ballet_Fantastique" title="Ballet Fantastique">Ballet Fantastique</a>, <a href="/wiki/NYCB" class="mw-disambig" title="NYCB">NYCB</a>/cast lists, re-write the whole <a href="/wiki/Russian_ballet" title="Russian ballet">Russian ballet</a> article</li><li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Basic_copyediting" title="Wikipedia:Basic copyediting">Copyedit</a></i> :</b> <a href="/wiki/Rasta_Thomas" title="Rasta Thomas">Rasta Thomas</a>, <a href="/wiki/Ballet" title="Ballet">Ballet</a> (marked as in need of immediate attention)</li><li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Disambiguation" title="Wikipedia:Disambiguation">Disambiguation</a></i> :</b> <a href="/wiki/Moscow_Ballet" title="Moscow Ballet">Moscow Ballet</a></li><li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Writing_better_articles" title="Wikipedia:Writing better articles">Expand</a></i> :</b> <a href="/wiki/French_ballet" title="French ballet">French ballet</a>, <a href="/wiki/Balanchine_method" class="mw-redirect" title="Balanchine method">Balanchine method</a>, <a href="/wiki/Cecchetti_method" title="Cecchetti method">Cecchetti method</a>, <a href="/wiki/Original_Ballet_Russe" title="Original Ballet Russe">Original Ballet Russe</a>, <a href="/wiki/Royal_Swedish_Ballet" title="Royal Swedish Ballet">Royal Swedish Ballet</a>, <a href="/wiki/Bloch_(dancewear)" class="mw-redirect" title="Bloch (dancewear)">Bloch (dancewear)</a>, <a href="/wiki/Turnout_(ballet)" title="Turnout (ballet)">Turnout (ballet)</a>, <a href="/wiki/Opera_ballet" class="mw-redirect" title="Opera ballet">Opera ballet</a>, <a href="/wiki/English_ballet" class="mw-redirect" title="English ballet">English ballet</a>, <a href="/wiki/Italian_ballet" title="Italian ballet">Italian ballet</a></li><li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view">NPOV</a></i> :</b> <a href="/wiki/Capezio" title="Capezio">Capezio</a></li><li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Stub" title="Wikipedia:Stub">Stubs</a></i> :</b> <a href="/wiki/Pas_de_deux" title="Pas de deux">Pas de deux</a>, <a href="/wiki/Ballet_tutu" class="mw-redirect" title="Ballet tutu">ballet tutu</a>, <a href="/wiki/Nicolai_Legat" class="mw-redirect" title="Nicolai Legat">Nicolai Legat</a>, <a href="/wiki/John_Neumeier" title="John Neumeier">John Neumeier</a>, <a href="/wiki/Miami_City_Ballet" title="Miami City Ballet">Miami City Ballet</a>, <i><a href="/wiki/Category:Ballet_stubs" title="Category:Ballet stubs">more</a></i></li><li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources" title="Wikipedia:Reliable sources">Unreferenced</a></i> :</b> <a href="/wiki/Miami_City_Ballet" title="Miami City Ballet">Miami City Ballet</a>, <a href="/wiki/Oklahoma_City_Ballet" title="Oklahoma City Ballet">Oklahoma City Ballet</a></li><li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikify" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Wikify">Wikify</a></i> :</b> <a href="/wiki/Moscow_Ballet_(United_States)" title="Moscow Ballet (United States)">Moscow Ballet (United States)</a>, <a href="/wiki/Oklahoma_City_Ballet" title="Oklahoma City Ballet">Oklahoma City Ballet</a> (in need of sections and references)</li><li><b><i>Other</i> :</b> Review <a href="/wiki/Special:RecentChangesLinked/Category:Ballet" title="Special:RecentChangesLinked/Category:Ballet"><b>recent changes</b></a> to ballet articles.</li> </ul> </div> </td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256394742"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_France.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c3/Flag_of_France.svg/35px-Flag_of_France.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="23" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c3/Flag_of_France.svg/53px-Flag_of_France.svg.png 1.5x, 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Thank you! <a href="/wiki/User:Cwmhiraeth" title="User:Cwmhiraeth">Cwmhiraeth</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cwmhiraeth" title="User talk:Cwmhiraeth">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns#c-Cwmhiraeth-2020-11-30T11:59:00.000Z-File:Camille_Saint-Saëns_in_1900_by_Pierre_Petit.jpg_scheduled_for_POTD" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:59, 30 November 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cwmhiraeth-2020-11-30T11:59:00.000Z-File:Camille_Saint-Saëns_in_1900_by_Pierre_Petit.jpg_scheduled_for_POTD"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cwmhiraeth-2020-11-30T11:59:00.000Z-File:Camille_Saint-Saëns_in_1900_by_Pierre_Petit.jpg_scheduled_for_POTD"></span> </p> <div style="margin-top:4px; border:1px solid #ddcef2; background:#faf5ff; overflow:auto;"><div style="margin:0.6em 0.4em 0.1em;"> <table role="presentation" style="margin:0 3px 3px; width:100%; box-sizing:border-box; text-align:left; background-color:transparent; border-collapse:collapse;"> <tbody><tr> <td style="padding:0 0.9em 0 0; width:300px; text-align:center;"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns_in_1900_by_Pierre_Petit.jpg" class="mw-file-description" title="Camille Saint-Saëns"><img alt="Camille Saint-Saëns" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bb/Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns_in_1900_by_Pierre_Petit.jpg/300px-Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns_in_1900_by_Pierre_Petit.jpg" decoding="async" width="300" height="445" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bb/Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns_in_1900_by_Pierre_Petit.jpg/450px-Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns_in_1900_by_Pierre_Petit.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bb/Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns_in_1900_by_Pierre_Petit.jpg/600px-Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns_in_1900_by_Pierre_Petit.jpg 2x" data-file-width="2288" data-file-height="3392"/></a></span> </td> <td style="padding:0 6px 0 0;"> <p><b><a href="/wiki/Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns" title="Camille Saint-Saëns">Camille Saint-Saëns</a></b> (9 October 1835 – 16 December 1921) was a French composer, organist, conductor and pianist of the <a href="/wiki/Romantic_music" title="Romantic music">Romantic era</a>. He was a musical prodigy, making his concert debut at the age of ten, and was still performing nearly seven decades later, giving what he intended to be his farewell concert as a pianist in Paris in 1913. Saint-Saëns's retirement was soon in abeyance as a result of <a href="/wiki/World_War_I" title="World War I">World War I</a>, during which he gave many performances in France and elsewhere, raising money for war charities. In November 1921, he gave a recital before a large invited audience, where it was remarked that his playing was as vivid and precise as ever; but he died unexpectedly of a heart attack the following month while in Algiers. This photograph of Saint-Saëns by <a href="/wiki/Pierre_Petit_(photographer)" title="Pierre Petit (photographer)">Pierre Petit</a> was taken in 1900. </p> <p style="text-align:left;"><small>Photograph credit: <a href="/wiki/Pierre_Petit_(photographer)" title="Pierre Petit (photographer)">Pierre Petit</a>; restored by <a href="/wiki/User:Adam_Cuerden" title="User:Adam Cuerden">Adam Cuerden</a></small></p> <div style="text-align:right;"> Recently featured: <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1129693374">.mw-parser-output .hlist dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul{margin:0;padding:0}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt,.mw-parser-output .hlist li{margin:0;display:inline}.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol 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<li><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:POTD/2020-12-16&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Template talk:POTD/2020-12-16 (page does not exist)">talk</a></li> <li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:POTD/2020-12-16&action=edit">edit</a></li> <li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:POTD/2020-12-16&action=history">history</a></li> <li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:POTD/2020-12-16&action=watch">watch</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns_in_1900_by_Pierre_Petit.jpg" title="File:Camille Saint-Saëns in 1900 by Pierre Petit.jpg">file page</a></li></ul> </div></div></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Exile_in_England" data-mw-thread-id="h-Exile_in_England-2021-05-11T19:41:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Exile_in_England-2021-05-11T19:41:00.000Z"></span>Exile in England<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Exile_in_England-2021-05-11T19:41:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Exile in England"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Intforce-2021-05-11T19:41:00.000Z-Exile_in_England"></span><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1248585704">@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{font-family:Georgia,"DejaVu Serif",serif;color:#008560;quotes:none}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-italic{font-family:inherit;font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-marks{quotes:"\"""\""}</style><q class="inline-quote-talk">During the brief but bloody Paris Commune that followed, his superior at the Madeleine, the Abbé Deguerry, was murdered by rebels; Saint-Saëns was fortunate to escape to temporary exile in England where he arrived in <b>May</b> 1871.</q> The <a href="/wiki/Paris_Commune" title="Paris Commune">Paris Commune</a> assumed power on 18 March, and was bloodily suppressed on 28 May. Minor mistake? He likely arrived in March; the <a href="/wiki/Romance,_Op._37_(Saint-Sa%C3%ABns)" title="Romance, Op. 37 (Saint-Saëns)"><i>Romance</i>, Op. 37</a> is dated to 25 March 1871 on the autograph, and was written "during his period of exile in London".<sup id="cite_ref-Henle_1-0" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-Henle-1"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>1<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> </p> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1232521257">.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk{margin:auto 0;border:1px dashed var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:4px;padding-left:1em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk-title{font-weight:bold}</style><div class="reflist-talk"> <p class="reflist-talk-title">References</p> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1239543626">.mw-parser-output .reflist{margin-bottom:0.5em;list-style-type:decimal}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .reflist{font-size:90%}}.mw-parser-output .reflist .references{font-size:100%;margin-bottom:0;list-style-type:inherit}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-2{column-width:30em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-3{column-width:25em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns{margin-top:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns ol{margin-top:0}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns li{page-break-inside:avoid;break-inside:avoid-column}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-alpha{list-style-type:upper-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-roman{list-style-type:upper-roman}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-alpha{list-style-type:lower-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-greek{list-style-type:lower-greek}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-roman{list-style-type:lower-roman}</style><div class="reflist"> <div class="mw-references-wrap"><ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-Henle-1"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-Henle_1-0">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1238218222">.mw-parser-output cite.citation{font-style:inherit;word-wrap:break-word}.mw-parser-output .citation q{quotes:"\"""\"""'""'"}.mw-parser-output .citation:target{background-color:rgba(0,127,255,0.133)}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-free.id-lock-free a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Lock-green.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited.id-lock-limited a,.mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration.id-lock-registration a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Lock-gray-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription.id-lock-subscription a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Lock-red-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Wikisource-logo.svg")right 0.1em center/12px no-repeat}body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-free a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background-size:contain;padding:0 1em 0 0}.mw-parser-output .cs1-code{color:inherit;background:inherit;border:none;padding:inherit}.mw-parser-output .cs1-hidden-error{display:none;color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-visible-error{color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{display:none;color:#085;margin-left:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-left{padding-left:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-right{padding-right:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .citation .mw-selflink{font-weight:inherit}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .cs1-format{font-size:95%}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}</style><cite id="CITEREFJost2019" class="citation book cs1">Jost, Peter, ed. (2019). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.henle.de/en/detail/?Title=Romance+D+flat+major+op.+37+for+Flute+and+Piano_1354"><i>Camille Saint-Saëns. Romance D flat major op. 37 for Flute and Piano</i></a>. Munich: <a href="/wiki/G._Henle_Verlag" title="G. Henle Verlag">G. Henle Verlag</a>. pp. III–IV. <a href="/wiki/ISMN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISMN (identifier)">ISMN</a> 979-0-2018-1354-7.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Camille+Saint-Sa%C3%ABns.+Romance+D+flat+major+op.+37+for+Flute+and+Piano&rft.place=Munich&rft.pages=III-IV&rft.pub=G.+Henle+Verlag&rft.date=2019&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.henle.de%2Fen%2Fdetail%2F%3FTitle%3DRomance%2BD%2Bflat%2Bmajor%2Bop.%2B37%2Bfor%2BFlute%2Band%2BPiano_1354&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3ACamille+Saint-Sa%C3%ABns" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> </ol></div></div> </div> <p><a href="/wiki/User:Intforce" title="User:Intforce">intforce</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Intforce" title="User talk:Intforce">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns#c-Intforce-2021-05-11T19:41:00.000Z-Exile_in_England" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:41, 11 May 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Intforce-2021-05-11T19:41:00.000Z-Exile_in_England"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Intforce-2021-05-11T19:41:00.000Z-Exile_in_England"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tim_riley-2021-05-11T20:21:00.000Z-Intforce-2021-05-11T19:41:00.000Z"></span>The British press archives are full of mentions of CS-S in London from May onwards, but nothing earlier. The monthly journal <i>The Orchestra</i> records on 19 May 1871 that CS-S is "one of the last refugees arrived from Paris", and <i>The Musical Standard</i> for 27 May also records that he "has just escaped from Paris". What is Jost's source for saying – if he does – that the March inscription was written in England? Am I missing a relevant mention on the site to which you link? <b><span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;"><a href="/wiki/User:Tim_riley" title="User:Tim riley"><span style="color:# 660066">Tim riley</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tim_riley" title="User talk:Tim riley"><span style="color:#848484"> talk</span></a></span></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns#c-Tim_riley-2021-05-11T20:21:00.000Z-Intforce-2021-05-11T19:41:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:21, 11 May 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tim_riley-2021-05-11T20:21:00.000Z-Intforce-2021-05-11T19:41:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tim_riley-2021-05-11T20:21:00.000Z-Intforce-2021-05-11T19:41:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tim_riley-2021-05-11T22:24:00.000Z-Tim_riley-2021-05-11T20:21:00.000Z"></span>Later: I've tweaked the new article a little but have left the purported month and place of composition unaltered pending resolution of the supposed anomaly mentioned above. <b><span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;"><a href="/wiki/User:Tim_riley" title="User:Tim riley"><span style="color:# 660066">Tim riley</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tim_riley" title="User talk:Tim riley"><span style="color:#848484"> talk</span></a></span></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns#c-Tim_riley-2021-05-11T22:24:00.000Z-Tim_riley-2021-05-11T20:21:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:24, 11 May 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tim_riley-2021-05-11T22:24:00.000Z-Tim_riley-2021-05-11T20:21:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tim_riley-2021-05-11T22:24:00.000Z-Tim_riley-2021-05-11T20:21:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Intforce-2021-05-12T11:20:00.000Z-Tim_riley-2021-05-11T22:24:00.000Z"></span>Interesting. It appears that Saint-Saëns returned after 28 May, and that he fled on the last train from Paris to London. Given that he was a bourgeois member of the Old Guard, he feared for his safety in the Paris Commune. I think "on the last train from Paris to London" would imply March? Jost cites <i>Bonnerot, C. Saint-Saëns. Sa vie et son œuvre, Paris, 2 1923, pp. 61f</i> but sadly I don't have access to that source. Jost's preface can be found <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.henle.de/media/foreword/1354.pdf">here</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Intforce" title="User:Intforce">intforce</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Intforce" title="User talk:Intforce">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns#c-Intforce-2021-05-12T11:20:00.000Z-Tim_riley-2021-05-11T22:24:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:20, 12 May 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Intforce-2021-05-12T11:20:00.000Z-Tim_riley-2021-05-11T22:24:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Intforce-2021-05-12T11:20:00.000Z-Tim_riley-2021-05-11T22:24:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tim_riley-2021-05-12T11:28:00.000Z-Intforce-2021-05-12T11:20:00.000Z"></span>I have ordered Bonnerot's book at the British Library. In normal times I'd stroll down there after lunch, but with the current Covid limitations on access it will be 17 June, if you please!, before I can get in. I have ordered some other Saint-Saëns biographies as well, and will report back here a.s.a.p. thereafter. <b><span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;"><a href="/wiki/User:Tim_riley" title="User:Tim riley"><span style="color:# 660066">Tim riley</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tim_riley" title="User talk:Tim riley"><span style="color:#848484"> talk</span></a></span></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns#c-Tim_riley-2021-05-12T11:28:00.000Z-Intforce-2021-05-12T11:20:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:28, 12 May 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tim_riley-2021-05-12T11:28:00.000Z-Intforce-2021-05-12T11:20:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tim_riley-2021-05-12T11:28:00.000Z-Intforce-2021-05-12T11:20:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tim_riley-2021-06-17T21:36:00.000Z-Exile_in_England"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Intforce" title="User:Intforce">Intforce</a>:</span> I renewed my reader's ticket at the BL today, and have booked a desk in one of the reading rooms for 23rd June. More on the above matter then, I hope. <b><span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;"><a href="/wiki/User:Tim_riley" title="User:Tim riley"><span style="color:# 660066">Tim riley</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tim_riley" title="User talk:Tim riley"><span style="color:#848484"> talk</span></a></span></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns#c-Tim_riley-2021-06-17T21:36:00.000Z-Exile_in_England" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:36, 17 June 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tim_riley-2021-06-17T21:36:00.000Z-Exile_in_England"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tim_riley-2021-06-17T21:36:00.000Z-Exile_in_England"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading4"><h4 id="Bonnerot" data-mw-thread-id="h-Bonnerot-Exile_in_England-2021-06-23T14:44:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Bonnerot-Exile_in_England-2021-06-23T14:44:00.000Z"></span>Bonnerot<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Bonnerot-Exile_in_England-2021-06-23T14:44:00.000Z"></span></h4><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Bonnerot"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tim_riley-2021-06-23T14:44:00.000Z-Bonnerot"></span>Bonnerot is not much help. On pp. 61–62 he says: </p> <dl><dd>Saint-Saëns gathered the few hundred francs he could find in the house, said goodbye and left. At the Gare du Nord, a train was leaving; an employee motioned for him to go into a compartment, even without a ticket. The next day he landed in England and went to London, while in Paris the fédérés were occupying the gates and the stations and preventing the inhabitants from leaving. He had left in time.</dd></dl> <p>Maddeningly, Bonnerot gives no date, but the trains stopped running to and from Paris on 3 April, to judge by press archives. If so, and if Saint-Saëns was indeed on the last train out of Paris, Jost is wrong that the Romance (dated March) was written in London. I am inclined to dodge the question of when CS-S left Paris, and redraw the relevant sentences to read: </p> <dl><dd><span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-added, #006400);">During the brief but bloody Paris Commune that followed in March to May 1871 his superior at the Madeleine, the Abbé Deguerry, was murdered by rebels;[52] Saint-Saëns was fortunate to escape to temporary exile in England. With the help of George Grove and others he supported himself while there, giving recitals.[53] Returning to Paris in May 1871, he found that…</span>.</dd></dl> <p>What think you, <a href="/wiki/User:Intforce" title="User:Intforce">Intforce</a>? – <b><span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;"><a href="/wiki/User:Tim_riley" title="User:Tim riley"><span style="color:# 660066">Tim riley</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tim_riley" title="User talk:Tim riley"><span style="color:#848484"> talk</span></a></span></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns#c-Tim_riley-2021-06-23T14:44:00.000Z-Bonnerot" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:44, 23 June 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tim_riley-2021-06-23T14:44:00.000Z-Bonnerot"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tim_riley-2021-06-23T14:44:00.000Z-Bonnerot"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Intforce-2021-06-24T11:47:00.000Z-Tim_riley-2021-06-23T14:44:00.000Z"></span>Thanks for the research! I agree that it would be possibly best to leave that question unanswered – it's merely a small detail after all. <a href="/wiki/User:Intforce" title="User:Intforce">intforce</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Intforce" title="User talk:Intforce">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns#c-Intforce-2021-06-24T11:47:00.000Z-Tim_riley-2021-06-23T14:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:47, 24 June 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Intforce-2021-06-24T11:47:00.000Z-Tim_riley-2021-06-23T14:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Intforce-2021-06-24T11:47:00.000Z-Tim_riley-2021-06-23T14:44:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tim_riley-2021-06-24T17:53:00.000Z-Intforce-2021-06-24T11:47:00.000Z"></span>I've lightly redrawn the section accordingly. <b><span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;"><a href="/wiki/User:Tim_riley" title="User:Tim riley"><span style="color:# 660066">Tim riley</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tim_riley" title="User talk:Tim riley"><span style="color:#848484"> talk</span></a></span></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns#c-Tim_riley-2021-06-24T17:53:00.000Z-Intforce-2021-06-24T11:47:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:53, 24 June 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tim_riley-2021-06-24T17:53:00.000Z-Intforce-2021-06-24T11:47:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tim_riley-2021-06-24T17:53:00.000Z-Intforce-2021-06-24T11:47:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Composer/Pianist_Charlotte_Tardieu_Performed_with_Saint-Saëns" data-mw-thread-id="h-Composer/Pianist_Charlotte_Tardieu_Performed_with_Saint-Saëns-20221124122700"><span id="Composer.2FPianist_Charlotte_Tardieu_Performed_with_Saint-Sa.C3.ABns"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Composer/Pianist_Charlotte_Tardieu_Performed_with_Saint-Saëns-20221124122700"></span>Composer/Pianist Charlotte Tardieu Performed with Saint-Saëns<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Composer/Pianist_Charlotte_Tardieu_Performed_with_Saint-Saëns-20221124122700"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: Composer/Pianist Charlotte Tardieu Performed with Saint-Saëns"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-T._E._Meeks-20221124122700-Composer/Pianist_Charlotte_Tardieu_Performed_with_Saint-Saëns"></span>This information was removed from the article: Composer/pianist <a href="/wiki/Charlotte_Tardieu" title="Charlotte Tardieu">Charlotte Tardieu</a> performed works for two pianos with Saint-Saëns on several occasions (<a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.sophie-drinker-institut.de/tardieu-de-malleville-charlotte">https://www.sophie-drinker-institut.de/tardieu-de-malleville-charlotte</a>). <a href="/wiki/User:T._E._Meeks" title="User:T. E. Meeks">T. E. Meeks</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:T._E._Meeks" title="User talk:T. E. Meeks">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns#c-T._E._Meeks-20221124122700-Composer/Pianist_Charlotte_Tardieu_Performed_with_Saint-Saëns" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:27, 24 November 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-T._E._Meeks-20221124122700-Composer/Pianist_Charlotte_Tardieu_Performed_with_Saint-Saëns"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-T._E._Meeks-20221124122700-Composer/Pianist_Charlotte_Tardieu_Performed_with_Saint-Saëns"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tim_riley-20221124184700-T._E._Meeks-20221124122700"></span>Not of encyclopedic interest in an article about Saint-Saëns. No mention of her in the Grove article about Saint-Saëns or in the full-length biographies by Neitzel, Hervey or de Lassus, nor in Saint-Saëns's own memoirs. Possibly of interest in an article about Tardieu, to add a bit of reflected glory to an obscure musician, but quite beside the point in CS-S's article. That's my view, anyhow: what think other editors? <b><span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;"><a href="/wiki/User:Tim_riley" title="User:Tim riley"><span style="color:# 660066">Tim riley</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tim_riley" title="User talk:Tim riley"><span style="color:#848484"> talk</span></a></span></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns#c-Tim_riley-20221124184700-T._E._Meeks-20221124122700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:47, 24 November 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tim_riley-20221124184700-T._E._Meeks-20221124122700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tim_riley-20221124184700-T._E._Meeks-20221124122700"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Possible_addition" data-mw-thread-id="h-Possible_addition-20221130150800"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Possible_addition-20221130150800"></span>Possible addition<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Possible_addition-20221130150800"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: Possible addition"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-86.182.104.144-20221130150800-Possible_addition"></span>While trying to improve the <a href="/wiki/National_Anthem_of_Uruguay" title="National Anthem of Uruguay">National Anthem of Uruguay</a> page (having been bowled over by the reminiscences of Rossini), I realized that Saint-Saëns is sometimes incorrectly credited as the composer of the music. Why? It turns out that during a visit he made to the country in 1916 he was commissioned to write a celebratory hymn (I'm not sure if it was ever completed) which could potentially have become the national anthem, but in reality didn't. Whereas this information seems to me highly relevant for the page I was editing, I'm agnostic as to whether it might<a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns&type=revision&diff=1124796458&oldid=1124379308">[1]</a> be appropriate <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns&oldid=1124796458#1900%E2%80%9321:_Last_years">here</a>. Hence this post. <i>In Freundschaft</i>, <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/86.182.104.144" title="Special:Contributions/86.182.104.144">86.182.104.144</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:86.182.104.144&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:86.182.104.144 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns#c-86.182.104.144-20221130150800-Possible_addition" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:08, 30 November 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-86.182.104.144-20221130150800-Possible_addition"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-86.182.104.144-20221130150800-Possible_addition"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tim_riley-20221130160300-86.182.104.144-20221130150800"></span>According to <i><a href="/wiki/Grove_Dictionary_of_Music_and_Musicians" class="mw-redirect" title="Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians">Grove</a></i>, Saint-Saëns did indeed write a hymn for Uruguay – <i>Partido colorado</i> for the national holiday on 14 July. I don't for my own part think this minor fact cries out for inclusion in our article, but there would be no great harm in mentioning it if others think we should follow<i> Grove's</i> example and do so. <b><span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;"><a href="/wiki/User:Tim_riley" title="User:Tim riley"><span style="color:# 660066">Tim riley</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tim_riley" title="User talk:Tim riley"><span style="color:#848484"> talk</span></a></span></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns#c-Tim_riley-20221130160300-86.182.104.144-20221130150800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:03, 30 November 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tim_riley-20221130160300-86.182.104.144-20221130150800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tim_riley-20221130160300-86.182.104.144-20221130150800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-86.182.104.144-20221130162300-Tim_riley-20221130160300"></span>Ah, thank you Tim! How did I miss that? I had the Grove page open to consult, but somehow completely missed out on <i>Partido colorado</i>... which will now go onto the anthem page. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/86.182.104.144" title="Special:Contributions/86.182.104.144">86.182.104.144</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:86.182.104.144&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:86.182.104.144 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns#c-86.182.104.144-20221130162300-Tim_riley-20221130160300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:23, 30 November 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-86.182.104.144-20221130162300-Tim_riley-20221130160300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-86.182.104.144-20221130162300-Tim_riley-20221130160300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tim_riley-20221130195000-86.182.104.144-20221130162300"></span>Good! I think that's right for both articles. (I found the one on the Uruguayan national anthem most interesting, by the way.) <b><span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;"><a href="/wiki/User:Tim_riley" title="User:Tim riley"><span style="color:# 660066">Tim riley</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tim_riley" title="User talk:Tim riley"><span style="color:#848484"> talk</span></a></span></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns#c-Tim_riley-20221130195000-86.182.104.144-20221130162300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:50, 30 November 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tim_riley-20221130195000-86.182.104.144-20221130162300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tim_riley-20221130195000-86.182.104.144-20221130162300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-86.182.104.203-20221130212300-Tim_riley-20221130195000"></span>Yes, the more I've reflected on the somewhat nebulous episode, the less significant it has felt to me for this page. (I'm delighted you find the anthem page interesting, btw; so have I, which is what brought me here - thanks again!) <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/86.182.104.203" title="Special:Contributions/86.182.104.203">86.182.104.203</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:86.182.104.203&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:86.182.104.203 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns#c-86.182.104.203-20221130212300-Tim_riley-20221130195000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:23, 30 November 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-86.182.104.203-20221130212300-Tim_riley-20221130195000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-86.182.104.203-20221130212300-Tim_riley-20221130195000"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="This_article_should_have_an_infobox" data-mw-thread-id="h-This_article_should_have_an_infobox-20241011201100"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-This_article_should_have_an_infobox-20241011201100"></span>This article should have an infobox<span data-mw-comment-end="h-This_article_should_have_an_infobox-20241011201100"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: This article should have an infobox"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Horsers-20241011201100-This_article_should_have_an_infobox"></span>It seems counter-intuative to not have an infobox on a page, particularly when all the information for it is readily available in the article. Not only do many other prominent classical composers have infoboxes (<a href="/wiki/Anton_Rubinstein" title="Anton Rubinstein">Anton Rubinstein</a>, <a href="/wiki/Richard_Wagner" title="Richard Wagner">Richard Wagner</a>, <a href="/wiki/Richard_Strauss" title="Richard Strauss">Richard Strauss</a>, etc). <a href="/wiki/Nikolai_Rimsky-Korsakov" title="Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov">Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov</a> does not have one, but on the talk page someone has asked why it doesn't have one. </p><p>Stating that 'We don't generally do i-boxes for composers' is blatantly false, as demostrated by the above examples (and there are many many more). Nor is it clutter, most people do not read entire wikipedia articles, they instead use them to quickly obtain a piece of information. Even Encyclopedia Britannica has an infobox for him. It seems that a number of editors gatekeep 'lesser-known' composers articles in order to prevent infoboxes from being added (perhaps to encourage people to read their work, or out of some strange sense of imaginary internet authority). The infobox on <a href="/wiki/Ludwig_van_Beethoven" title="Ludwig van Beethoven">Ludwig van Beethoven</a> seems to have been quite controversial (to the editors only, I doubt anyone reading the article finds it disagreeble, since it can only make the information more accessible). <a href="/wiki/User:Horsers" title="User:Horsers">Horsers</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Horsers" title="User talk:Horsers">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns#c-Horsers-20241011201100-This_article_should_have_an_infobox" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:11, 11 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Horsers-20241011201100-This_article_should_have_an_infobox"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Horsers-20241011201100-This_article_should_have_an_infobox"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tim_riley-20241012085600-Horsers-20241011201100"></span>It is WP policy that whether or not an article should have an info-box is a matter to be agreed for each article. I recently revised the article on Schumann to bring it up to FA standard, and as it already had an info-box I felt it discourteous to earlier editors to remove it. But most composer FAs have not got (and don't need) an infobox. There are, I think from a quick count, four more with boxes and thirty without. Just as it seemed to me disrespectful to earlier editors to remove the box from Schumann's article (and Klemperer's), so it seems disrespectful to insist on a box when the various main editors have not thought one a good idea. <b><span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;"><a href="/wiki/User:Tim_riley" title="User:Tim riley"><span style="color:# 660066">Tim riley</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tim_riley" title="User talk:Tim riley"><span style="color:#848484"> talk</span></a></span></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns#c-Tim_riley-20241012085600-Horsers-20241011201100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:56, 12 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tim_riley-20241012085600-Horsers-20241011201100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tim_riley-20241012085600-Horsers-20241011201100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Horsers-20241012122600-Tim_riley-20241012085600"></span>You seem to be under the misapprehension that wikipedia is about that wikipedia is about the editor. The purpose of an encylopædia is to make information easily accessible to the user, not the vanity of its editors (and there are about 2000 times as many views of pages as edits to them on the English Wikipedia <a class="external autonumber" href="https://stats.wikimedia.org/#/en.wikipedia.org">[2]</a>). So the editor's perspective isn't really important, the reader's is, and I would guess that readers generally do appreciate infoboxes, and the few who don't probably are not irked by its presence. An infobox takes not much more space on the page compared to the image (thanks to the contents it means there is just a lot of white space on the page when using the old view, and on mobile at best it requires a slightly longer swipe). <a href="/wiki/User:Horsers" title="User:Horsers">Horsers</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Horsers" title="User talk:Horsers">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns#c-Horsers-20241012122600-Tim_riley-20241012085600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:26, 12 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Horsers-20241012122600-Tim_riley-20241012085600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Horsers-20241012122600-Tim_riley-20241012085600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tim_riley-20241012152400-Horsers-20241012122600"></span>What an absolute charmer you are! "I would guess..." - quite so. You are in fact doing nothing but air your prejudices. You appear to oppose Wikipedia's policy on info-boxes, which I have explained above. While you'r reading that, you might also like to read the one on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:AGF" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:AGF">WP:AGF</a>. <b><span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;"><a href="/wiki/User:Tim_riley" title="User:Tim riley"><span style="color:# 660066">Tim riley</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tim_riley" title="User talk:Tim riley"><span style="color:#848484"> talk</span></a></span></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns#c-Tim_riley-20241012152400-Horsers-20241012122600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:24, 12 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tim_riley-20241012152400-Horsers-20241012122600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tim_riley-20241012152400-Horsers-20241012122600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Horsers-20241012170800-Tim_riley-20241012152400"></span>Just as I am making a guess (backed by anecdotal evidence), so are you by disagreeing with me. I am interested, what do you mean prejudices? I am merely stating my view that infoboxes make an article better. On the other hand, you simplely refer to WP policy (without source), and now seemingly try to take the 'moral high ground'. And I not assuming bad faith, I am assuming ignorance of the readers (<a href="/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor" title="Hanlon's razor">Hanlon's razor</a> in a way). Of course, as you have made clear, I have no ability to change anything, and with your unwavering commitment to not have an infobox, I can at least compliment you on your conviction.</dd> <dd>But then, <a href="/wiki/Stanley_Kubrick" title="Stanley Kubrick">Stanley Kubrick</a> now has an <a href="/wiki/Talk:Stanley_Kubrick/Archive_14#RFC:_Infobox_or_not" title="Talk:Stanley Kubrick/Archive 14">infobox</a> (with the linked discussion summing up my view quite nicely), and of course people <a class="external text" href="https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Which_parts_of_an_article_do_readers_read">disproportionately read the infobox</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Horsers" title="User:Horsers">Horsers</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Horsers" title="User talk:Horsers">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns#c-Horsers-20241012170800-Tim_riley-20241012152400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:08, 12 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Horsers-20241012170800-Tim_riley-20241012152400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Horsers-20241012170800-Tim_riley-20241012152400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tim_riley-20241012174000-Horsers-20241012170800"></span>Glad you've simmered down on the abuse. Please try to realise that the five or six main authors of FAs on i-boxless composers make our judgements on our best assessments of what is helpful to our readers. I use i-boxes all the time for articles on clergy, politicians and sportsmen where there are career stats that casual (and not so casual) visitors can pick up on, but composers just don't have such i-box-friendly statistics. <b><span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;"><a href="/wiki/User:Tim_riley" title="User:Tim riley"><span style="color:# 660066">Tim riley</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tim_riley" title="User talk:Tim riley"><span style="color:#848484"> talk</span></a></span></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns#c-Tim_riley-20241012174000-Horsers-20241012170800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:40, 12 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tim_riley-20241012174000-Horsers-20241012170800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tim_riley-20241012174000-Horsers-20241012170800"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; 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