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Beyond the pitch deck: how Launch 1st Method reduces startup risks - Interesting Engineering
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width="200" height="200" alt="Dynasafe: Making the world safer, one bomb at a time"/></a></div><div class="Home_sm__article_desc__EbGQy ml-2" style="justify-content:center;margin-bottom:0px"><p style="margin-left:unset" class="Home_LexiconCategoryName__YhfvN article-type "><a href="javascrip:void(0)">Episode 78</a></p><span class="Home_articleTitleContainer__Um8QO"><h2 class="Home_articleTitle__oK4uk" style="font-size:14px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/dynasafe-making-the-world-safer-one-bomb-at-a-time">Dynasafe: Making the world safer, one bomb at a time</a></h2></span></div></div></div></div><div title="Timing is everything: how SiTime drives innovation in modern electronics" episode_number="75" class="podcastIdClass col-md-12"><div class="Home_articleCardLexList__s1R_X Home_sm__cF6Ti " style="padding-top:15px;border-bottom:1px solid #0180C1"><div class="" style="display:flex"><div style="margin-bottom:-5px"><a 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centers</a></h2></span></div></div></div></div><div title="From vodka to hydrogen: exploring LiquidPiston’s revolutionary X-Engine" episode_number="73" class="podcastIdClass col-md-12"><div class="Home_articleCardLexList__s1R_X Home_sm__cF6Ti " style="padding-top:15px;border-bottom:1px solid #0180C1"><div class="" style="display:flex"><div style="margin-bottom:-5px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/from-vodka-to-hydrogen-exploring-liquidpistons-revolutionary-x-engine"><img class="Home_thumbnailPodcast__MbEVS" src="https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-23.png" width="200" height="200" alt="From vodka to hydrogen: exploring LiquidPiston’s revolutionary X-Engine"/></a></div><div class="Home_sm__article_desc__EbGQy ml-2" style="justify-content:center;margin-bottom:0px"><p style="margin-left:unset" class="Home_LexiconCategoryName__YhfvN article-type "><a href="javascrip:void(0)">Episode 73</a></p><span class="Home_articleTitleContainer__Um8QO"><h2 class="Home_articleTitle__oK4uk" style="font-size:14px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/from-vodka-to-hydrogen-exploring-liquidpistons-revolutionary-x-engine">From vodka to hydrogen: exploring LiquidPiston’s revolutionary X-Engine</a></h2></span></div></div></div></div><div title="AI's Energy Crisis: Innovations Shaping the Future of Computing" episode_number="72" class="podcastIdClass col-md-12"><div class="Home_articleCardLexList__s1R_X Home_sm__cF6Ti " style="padding-top:15px;border-bottom:1px solid #0180C1"><div class="" style="display:flex"><div style="margin-bottom:-5px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/ais-energy-crisis-innovations-shaping-the-future-of-computing"><img class="Home_thumbnailPodcast__MbEVS" src="https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-22.png" width="200" height="200" alt="AI's Energy Crisis: Innovations Shaping the Future of Computing"/></a></div><div class="Home_sm__article_desc__EbGQy ml-2" style="justify-content:center;margin-bottom:0px"><p style="margin-left:unset" class="Home_LexiconCategoryName__YhfvN article-type "><a href="javascrip:void(0)">Episode 72</a></p><span class="Home_articleTitleContainer__Um8QO"><h2 class="Home_articleTitle__oK4uk" style="font-size:14px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/ais-energy-crisis-innovations-shaping-the-future-of-computing">AI's Energy Crisis: Innovations Shaping the Future of Computing</a></h2></span></div></div></div></div><div title="AI-Powered Architecture: Redefining the Future of Design and Sustainability" episode_number="72" class="podcastIdClass col-md-12"><div class="Home_articleCardLexList__s1R_X Home_sm__cF6Ti " style="padding-top:15px;border-bottom:1px solid #0180C1"><div class="" style="display:flex"><div style="margin-bottom:-5px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/ai-powered-architecture-redefining-the-future-of-design-and-sustainability"><img class="Home_thumbnailPodcast__MbEVS" src="https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/amazon-cover-v2.png" width="200" height="200" alt="AI-Powered Architecture: Redefining the Future of Design and Sustainability"/></a></div><div class="Home_sm__article_desc__EbGQy ml-2" style="justify-content:center;margin-bottom:0px"><p style="margin-left:unset" class="Home_LexiconCategoryName__YhfvN article-type "><a href="javascrip:void(0)">Episode 72</a></p><span class="Home_articleTitleContainer__Um8QO"><h2 class="Home_articleTitle__oK4uk" style="font-size:14px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/ai-powered-architecture-redefining-the-future-of-design-and-sustainability">AI-Powered Architecture: Redefining the Future of Design and Sustainability</a></h2></span></div></div></div></div><div title="Meet Elora: Monitoring baby wellness with AI" episode_number="71" class="podcastIdClass col-md-12"><div class="Home_articleCardLexList__s1R_X Home_sm__cF6Ti " style="padding-top:15px;border-bottom:1px solid #0180C1"><div class="" style="display:flex"><div style="margin-bottom:-5px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/meet-elora-monitoring-baby-wellness-with-ai"><img class="Home_thumbnailPodcast__MbEVS" src="https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-21.png" width="200" height="200" alt="Meet Elora: Monitoring baby wellness with AI"/></a></div><div class="Home_sm__article_desc__EbGQy ml-2" style="justify-content:center;margin-bottom:0px"><p style="margin-left:unset" class="Home_LexiconCategoryName__YhfvN article-type "><a href="javascrip:void(0)">Episode 71</a></p><span class="Home_articleTitleContainer__Um8QO"><h2 class="Home_articleTitle__oK4uk" style="font-size:14px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/meet-elora-monitoring-baby-wellness-with-ai">Meet Elora: Monitoring baby wellness with AI</a></h2></span></div></div></div></div><div title="Parametric Architecture: From a Spark to a Career-Defining Journey" episode_number="72" class="podcastIdClass col-md-12"><div class="Home_articleCardLexList__s1R_X Home_sm__cF6Ti " style="padding-top:15px;border-bottom:1px solid #0180C1"><div class="" style="display:flex"><div style="margin-bottom:-5px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/from-toilet-to-twitter-the-rise-of-parametricarchitecture"><img class="Home_thumbnailPodcast__MbEVS" src="https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/amazon-cover-1.png" width="200" height="200" alt="Parametric Architecture: From a Spark to a Career-Defining Journey"/></a></div><div class="Home_sm__article_desc__EbGQy ml-2" style="justify-content:center;margin-bottom:0px"><p style="margin-left:unset" class="Home_LexiconCategoryName__YhfvN article-type "><a href="javascrip:void(0)">Episode 72</a></p><span class="Home_articleTitleContainer__Um8QO"><h2 class="Home_articleTitle__oK4uk" style="font-size:14px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/from-toilet-to-twitter-the-rise-of-parametricarchitecture">Parametric Architecture: From a Spark to a Career-Defining Journey</a></h2></span></div></div></div></div><div title="Moore’s Law at 60: how it’s still changing the world" episode_number="71" class="podcastIdClass col-md-12"><div class="Home_articleCardLexList__s1R_X Home_sm__cF6Ti " style="padding-top:15px;border-bottom:1px solid #0180C1"><div class="" style="display:flex"><div style="margin-bottom:-5px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/moores-law-at-60-how-its-still-changing-the-world"><img class="Home_thumbnailPodcast__MbEVS" src="https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/1-20.png" width="200" height="200" alt="Moore’s Law at 60: how it’s still changing the world"/></a></div><div class="Home_sm__article_desc__EbGQy ml-2" style="justify-content:center;margin-bottom:0px"><p style="margin-left:unset" class="Home_LexiconCategoryName__YhfvN article-type "><a href="javascrip:void(0)">Episode 71</a></p><span class="Home_articleTitleContainer__Um8QO"><h2 class="Home_articleTitle__oK4uk" style="font-size:14px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/moores-law-at-60-how-its-still-changing-the-world">Moore’s Law at 60: how it’s still changing the world</a></h2></span></div></div></div></div><div title="How 6G will revolutionize communication and innovation with Qualcomm's John Smee" episode_number="71" class="podcastIdClass col-md-12"><div class="Home_articleCardLexList__s1R_X Home_sm__cF6Ti " style="padding-top:15px"><div class="" style="display:flex"><div style="margin-bottom:-5px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/how-6g-will-revolutionize-communication-and-innovation-with-qualcomms-john-smee"><img class="Home_thumbnailPodcast__MbEVS" src="https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/1-19.png" width="200" height="200" alt="How 6G will revolutionize communication and innovation with Qualcomm's John Smee"/></a></div><div class="Home_sm__article_desc__EbGQy ml-2" style="justify-content:center;margin-bottom:0px"><p style="margin-left:unset" class="Home_LexiconCategoryName__YhfvN article-type "><a href="javascrip:void(0)">Episode 71</a></p><span class="Home_articleTitleContainer__Um8QO"><h2 class="Home_articleTitle__oK4uk" style="font-size:14px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/how-6g-will-revolutionize-communication-and-innovation-with-qualcomms-john-smee">How 6G will revolutionize communication and innovation with Qualcomm's John Smee</a></h2></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="mb-2"><div class="article"><article class="Review_LexDetailArticle__ooRZo"><section class="Review_review__5YDrx"><div style="padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px" class="container"><div class="content-text"><div class="container"><div class="row"><div class="Review_lexiconDetailCol__q5fiU col-lg-12 col-sm-12 col-12"><div class="d-flex flex-column align-items-center" style="margin-top:30px"><div class="Review_lexiconTitleLexicon__1K6nk">Lexicon</div><div class="Review_header__rCaGD"><h1 class="content-title mt-3">Beyond the pitch deck: how Launch 1st Method reduces startup risks</h1></div><div class="Review_lexiconTitleDesc__I7FIV">In this episode, David Hirschfeld explains his Launch 1st Method, AI's role in startups, and why early revenue is key to sustainable growth.</div><div class="Review_authorInfo__jp3l3"><div class="Review_LexauthorLink__chHQV"><div class="Review_postTSLong__CY_3u" style="font-style:unset"><div class="Review_hostLink__uTklM Home_showOnPC__y7SNo"><span class="Review_hostTextColor__hxpeP">Host : </span><a style="font-size:12px;margin-left:3px">Christopher McFadden</a><span class="Review_hostTextColor__hxpeP"> Speakers : </span><a style="font-size:12px">David Hirschfeld</a></div><div class="Review_hostLink__uTklM Home_showOnMobile__kamQf"><div style="display:flex;height:23px"><span style="float:left;margin-left:auto" class="Review_hostTextColor__hxpeP">Host : </span><a style="font-size:12px;margin-left:3px;margin-right:auto;align-self:center">Christopher McFadden</a></div><div style="display:flex"><span style="float:left;margin-left:auto" class="Review_hostTextColor__hxpeP"> Speakers : </span><a style="font-size:12px;margin-right:auto;align-self:center">David Hirschfeld</a></div></div></div><div class="Review_lexiconDate__35_uP"><span style="float:left;margin-left:auto" class="Review_hostTextColor__hxpeP Review_hostLink__uTklM">Published: </span>Nov 7, 2024 03:11 PM EST</div></div></div><div class="Home_showOnTablet__MzGZo"><div class="Review_lexiconPodcastListBorder__euDV2"></div><div class="Home_podcastHeadMargin__oZIwd"><div class="Home_podcastHeadListScroll__T8GdY" style="height:auto;padding:15px 15px 15px 0px"><div style="width:3500px"><div class="podcastIdClass" title="Dynasafe: Making the world safer, one bomb at a time" episode_number="78" style="width:350px;float:left;padding-right:15px;border-right:1px solid #0180C1;padding-left:15px;display:flex"><div class="Home_articleCardLexList__s1R_X Home_sm__cF6Ti " style="padding-top:0px"><div class="" style="display:flex"><div style="margin-bottom:-5px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/dynasafe-making-the-world-safer-one-bomb-at-a-time"><img class="Home_thumbnailPodcast__MbEVS" src="https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-26.png" width="200" height="200" alt="Dynasafe: Making the world safer, one bomb at a time"/></a></div><div class="Home_sm__article_desc__EbGQy ml-2" style="justify-content:center;margin-bottom:0px"><p style="margin-left:unset" class="Home_LexiconCategoryName__YhfvN article-type "><a href="javascrip:void(0)">Episode 78</a></p><span class="Home_articleTitleContainer__Um8QO"><h2 class="Home_articleTitle__oK4uk" style="font-size:14px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/dynasafe-making-the-world-safer-one-bomb-at-a-time">Dynasafe: Making the world safer, one bomb at a time</a></h2></span></div></div></div></div><div class="podcastIdClass" title="Timing is everything: how SiTime drives innovation in modern electronics" episode_number="75" style="width:350px;float:left;padding-right:15px;border-right:1px solid #0180C1;padding-left:15px;display:flex"><div class="Home_articleCardLexList__s1R_X Home_sm__cF6Ti " style="padding-top:0px"><div class="" style="display:flex"><div style="margin-bottom:-5px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/timing-is-everything-how-sitime-drives-innovation-in-modern-electronics"><img class="Home_thumbnailPodcast__MbEVS" src="https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-25.png" width="200" height="200" alt="Timing is everything: how SiTime drives innovation in modern electronics"/></a></div><div class="Home_sm__article_desc__EbGQy ml-2" style="justify-content:center;margin-bottom:0px"><p style="margin-left:unset" class="Home_LexiconCategoryName__YhfvN article-type "><a href="javascrip:void(0)">Episode 75</a></p><span class="Home_articleTitleContainer__Um8QO"><h2 class="Home_articleTitle__oK4uk" style="font-size:14px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/timing-is-everything-how-sitime-drives-innovation-in-modern-electronics">Timing is everything: how SiTime drives innovation in modern electronics</a></h2></span></div></div></div></div><div class="podcastIdClass" title="Bridging the energy gap: AI and the future of data centers" episode_number="74" style="width:350px;float:left;padding-right:15px;border-right:1px solid #0180C1;padding-left:15px;display:flex"><div class="Home_articleCardLexList__s1R_X Home_sm__cF6Ti nativo_stories_desktop" style="padding-top:0px"><div class="" style="display:flex"><div style="margin-bottom:-5px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/bridging-the-energy-gap-ai-and-the-future-of-data-centers"><img class="Home_thumbnailPodcast__MbEVS" src="https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-24.png" width="200" height="200" alt="Bridging the energy gap: AI and the future of data centers"/></a></div><div class="Home_sm__article_desc__EbGQy ml-2" style="justify-content:center;margin-bottom:0px"><p style="margin-left:unset" class="Home_LexiconCategoryName__YhfvN article-type "><a href="javascrip:void(0)">Episode 74</a></p><span class="Home_articleTitleContainer__Um8QO"><h2 class="Home_articleTitle__oK4uk" style="font-size:14px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/bridging-the-energy-gap-ai-and-the-future-of-data-centers">Bridging the energy gap: AI and the future of data centers</a></h2></span></div></div></div></div><div class="podcastIdClass" title="From vodka to hydrogen: exploring LiquidPiston’s revolutionary X-Engine" episode_number="73" style="width:350px;float:left;padding-right:15px;border-right:1px solid #0180C1;padding-left:15px;display:flex"><div class="Home_articleCardLexList__s1R_X Home_sm__cF6Ti " style="padding-top:0px"><div class="" style="display:flex"><div style="margin-bottom:-5px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/from-vodka-to-hydrogen-exploring-liquidpistons-revolutionary-x-engine"><img class="Home_thumbnailPodcast__MbEVS" src="https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-23.png" width="200" height="200" alt="From vodka to hydrogen: exploring LiquidPiston’s revolutionary X-Engine"/></a></div><div class="Home_sm__article_desc__EbGQy ml-2" style="justify-content:center;margin-bottom:0px"><p style="margin-left:unset" class="Home_LexiconCategoryName__YhfvN article-type "><a href="javascrip:void(0)">Episode 73</a></p><span class="Home_articleTitleContainer__Um8QO"><h2 class="Home_articleTitle__oK4uk" style="font-size:14px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/from-vodka-to-hydrogen-exploring-liquidpistons-revolutionary-x-engine">From vodka to hydrogen: exploring LiquidPiston’s revolutionary X-Engine</a></h2></span></div></div></div></div><div class="podcastIdClass" title="AI's Energy Crisis: Innovations Shaping the Future of Computing" episode_number="72" style="width:350px;float:left;padding-right:15px;border-right:1px solid #0180C1;padding-left:15px;display:flex"><div class="Home_articleCardLexList__s1R_X Home_sm__cF6Ti " style="padding-top:0px"><div class="" style="display:flex"><div style="margin-bottom:-5px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/ais-energy-crisis-innovations-shaping-the-future-of-computing"><img class="Home_thumbnailPodcast__MbEVS" src="https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-22.png" width="200" height="200" alt="AI's Energy Crisis: Innovations Shaping the Future of Computing"/></a></div><div class="Home_sm__article_desc__EbGQy ml-2" style="justify-content:center;margin-bottom:0px"><p style="margin-left:unset" class="Home_LexiconCategoryName__YhfvN article-type "><a href="javascrip:void(0)">Episode 72</a></p><span class="Home_articleTitleContainer__Um8QO"><h2 class="Home_articleTitle__oK4uk" style="font-size:14px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/ais-energy-crisis-innovations-shaping-the-future-of-computing">AI's Energy Crisis: Innovations Shaping the Future of Computing</a></h2></span></div></div></div></div><div class="podcastIdClass" title="AI-Powered Architecture: Redefining the Future of Design and Sustainability" episode_number="72" style="width:350px;float:left;padding-right:15px;border-right:1px solid #0180C1;padding-left:15px;display:flex"><div class="Home_articleCardLexList__s1R_X Home_sm__cF6Ti " style="padding-top:0px"><div class="" style="display:flex"><div style="margin-bottom:-5px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/ai-powered-architecture-redefining-the-future-of-design-and-sustainability"><img class="Home_thumbnailPodcast__MbEVS" src="https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/amazon-cover-v2.png" width="200" height="200" alt="AI-Powered Architecture: Redefining the Future of Design and Sustainability"/></a></div><div class="Home_sm__article_desc__EbGQy ml-2" style="justify-content:center;margin-bottom:0px"><p style="margin-left:unset" class="Home_LexiconCategoryName__YhfvN article-type "><a href="javascrip:void(0)">Episode 72</a></p><span class="Home_articleTitleContainer__Um8QO"><h2 class="Home_articleTitle__oK4uk" style="font-size:14px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/ai-powered-architecture-redefining-the-future-of-design-and-sustainability">AI-Powered Architecture: Redefining the Future of Design and Sustainability</a></h2></span></div></div></div></div><div class="podcastIdClass" title="Meet Elora: Monitoring baby wellness with AI" episode_number="71" style="width:350px;float:left;padding-right:15px;border-right:1px solid #0180C1;padding-left:15px;display:flex"><div class="Home_articleCardLexList__s1R_X Home_sm__cF6Ti " style="padding-top:0px"><div class="" style="display:flex"><div style="margin-bottom:-5px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/meet-elora-monitoring-baby-wellness-with-ai"><img class="Home_thumbnailPodcast__MbEVS" src="https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-21.png" width="200" height="200" alt="Meet Elora: Monitoring baby wellness with AI"/></a></div><div class="Home_sm__article_desc__EbGQy ml-2" style="justify-content:center;margin-bottom:0px"><p style="margin-left:unset" class="Home_LexiconCategoryName__YhfvN article-type "><a href="javascrip:void(0)">Episode 71</a></p><span class="Home_articleTitleContainer__Um8QO"><h2 class="Home_articleTitle__oK4uk" style="font-size:14px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/meet-elora-monitoring-baby-wellness-with-ai">Meet Elora: Monitoring baby wellness with AI</a></h2></span></div></div></div></div><div class="podcastIdClass" title="Parametric Architecture: From a Spark to a Career-Defining Journey" episode_number="72" style="width:350px;float:left;padding-right:15px;border-right:1px solid #0180C1;padding-left:15px;display:flex"><div class="Home_articleCardLexList__s1R_X Home_sm__cF6Ti " style="padding-top:0px"><div class="" style="display:flex"><div style="margin-bottom:-5px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/from-toilet-to-twitter-the-rise-of-parametricarchitecture"><img class="Home_thumbnailPodcast__MbEVS" src="https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/amazon-cover-1.png" width="200" height="200" alt="Parametric Architecture: From a Spark to a Career-Defining Journey"/></a></div><div class="Home_sm__article_desc__EbGQy ml-2" style="justify-content:center;margin-bottom:0px"><p style="margin-left:unset" class="Home_LexiconCategoryName__YhfvN article-type "><a href="javascrip:void(0)">Episode 72</a></p><span class="Home_articleTitleContainer__Um8QO"><h2 class="Home_articleTitle__oK4uk" style="font-size:14px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/from-toilet-to-twitter-the-rise-of-parametricarchitecture">Parametric Architecture: From a Spark to a Career-Defining Journey</a></h2></span></div></div></div></div><div class="podcastIdClass" title="Moore’s Law at 60: how it’s still changing the world" episode_number="71" style="width:350px;float:left;padding-right:15px;border-right:1px solid #0180C1;padding-left:15px;display:flex"><div class="Home_articleCardLexList__s1R_X Home_sm__cF6Ti " style="padding-top:0px"><div class="" style="display:flex"><div style="margin-bottom:-5px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/moores-law-at-60-how-its-still-changing-the-world"><img class="Home_thumbnailPodcast__MbEVS" src="https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/1-20.png" width="200" height="200" alt="Moore’s Law at 60: how it’s still changing the world"/></a></div><div class="Home_sm__article_desc__EbGQy ml-2" style="justify-content:center;margin-bottom:0px"><p style="margin-left:unset" class="Home_LexiconCategoryName__YhfvN article-type "><a href="javascrip:void(0)">Episode 71</a></p><span class="Home_articleTitleContainer__Um8QO"><h2 class="Home_articleTitle__oK4uk" style="font-size:14px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/moores-law-at-60-how-its-still-changing-the-world">Moore’s Law at 60: how it’s still changing the world</a></h2></span></div></div></div></div><div class="podcastIdClass" title="How 6G will revolutionize communication and innovation with Qualcomm's John Smee" episode_number="71" style="width:350px;float:left;padding-right:15px;border-right:1px solid #0180C1;padding-left:15px;display:flex"><div class="Home_articleCardLexList__s1R_X Home_sm__cF6Ti " style="padding-top:0px"><div class="" style="display:flex"><div style="margin-bottom:-5px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/how-6g-will-revolutionize-communication-and-innovation-with-qualcomms-john-smee"><img class="Home_thumbnailPodcast__MbEVS" src="https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/1-19.png" width="200" height="200" alt="How 6G will revolutionize communication and innovation with Qualcomm's John Smee"/></a></div><div class="Home_sm__article_desc__EbGQy ml-2" style="justify-content:center;margin-bottom:0px"><p style="margin-left:unset" class="Home_LexiconCategoryName__YhfvN article-type "><a href="javascrip:void(0)">Episode 71</a></p><span class="Home_articleTitleContainer__Um8QO"><h2 class="Home_articleTitle__oK4uk" style="font-size:14px"><a href="/podcast/lexicon/how-6g-will-revolutionize-communication-and-innovation-with-qualcomms-john-smee">How 6G will revolutionize communication and innovation with Qualcomm's John Smee</a></h2></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="Review_lexiconLogoSection__NSIqo"><div class="Review_lexiconLogoText__DgidL">Listen and follow “<i>Lexicon</i>”</div><div class="Review_lexiconLogoIcons___zezZ"><div class="Review_podcastLogoDiv__YJMn9" id="apple-logo-id"><a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/lexicon-by-interesting-engineering/id1665578962" target="_blank"><img alt="apple" style="margin-top:-3px;" src="https://assets.interestingengineering.com/assets/podcast/apple-logo.png"/></a></div><div class="Review_podcastLogoDivLine__F6Y8K"></div><div class="Review_podcastLogoDiv__YJMn9" id="spotify-logo-id"><a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/0F038T5p5Ul1XjXCIQ1Qwj" target="_blank"><img alt="spotify" src="https://assets.interestingengineering.com/assets/podcast/spotify-logo.png"/></a></div><div class="Review_podcastLogoDivLine__F6Y8K"></div><div 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class="PodcastDetail_speakerItem__6Bsi3"><div class="PodcastDetail_itemLeft__8or_Z"></div><div class="PodcastDetail_itemRight__1HNY9" style="margin-left:0px"><div><p>Today, we sit down with <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/dhirschfeld" target="_blank" rel="noopener">David Hirschfeld</a>, an experienced software entrepreneur and creator of the <a href="https://launch1st.tekyz.com/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Launch 1st Method,</a> to discuss his unique approach to helping startups find early success by validating product-market fit before development.</p> <p>David shares insights from over 30 years in the tech industry, including the critical role of AI in startups, how to fund development through early sales, and his vision for a future shaped by rapid technological advancements.</p> <p>Also, check out our educational platform, <a href="https://interestingengineering.com/ie-academy">IE Academy</a>.</p> </div></div></li></ul></div><div style="margin-top:50px" class="Review_LexDetailPageMargins__u2upW"><div class="Stroke_stroked__znB0K stroked PodcastDetail_strokeSmall__pRZU6"> <span class="">meet the host</span> </div><ul class="PodcastDetail_speakers__ceSv3"><li class="PodcastDetail_speakerItem__6Bsi3"><div class="PodcastDetail_itemLeft__8or_Z"><div class="PodcastDetail_itemImgInner__iLFT7"><img src="https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/avatars/XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg" alt="XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg"/></div></div><div class="PodcastDetail_itemRight__1HNY9"><div><h4>Christopher McFadden</h4><div class="PodcastDetail_subTitle__r_9I_">Host</div></div><div><p>Christopher graduated from Cardiff University in 2004 with a Masters Degree in Geology. Since then, he has worked exclusively within the Built Environment, Occupational Health and Safety and Environmental Consultancy industries. He is a qualified and accredited Energy Consultant, Green Deal Assessor and Practitioner member of IEMA. Chris’s main interests range from Science and Engineering, Military and Ancient History to Politics and Philosophy.</p> </div></div></li></ul></div><div style="margin-top:50px" class="Review_LexDetailPageMargins__u2upW"><div class="Stroke_stroked__znB0K stroked PodcastDetail_strokeSmall__pRZU6"> <span class="">meet the speakers</span> </div><ul class="PodcastDetail_speakers__ceSv3"><li class="PodcastDetail_speakerItem__6Bsi3"><div class="PodcastDetail_itemLeft__8or_Z"><div class="PodcastDetail_itemImgInner__iLFT7"><img src="https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/1642701667028.jpg" alt="1642701667028.jpg"/></div></div><div class="PodcastDetail_itemRight__1HNY9"><div><h4>David Hirschfeld</h4><div class="PodcastDetail_subTitle__r_9I_">Founder and CEO at Tekyz Corp</div></div><div><p>David Hirschfeld is a veteran software entrepreneur with over 30 years in the tech industry, known for his expertise in guiding startups to early success.</p> <p>After starting his career in sales at Computer Associates, David went on to found multiple software companies, including a successful exit in 2000.</p> <p>His experiences led him to create the “Launch 1st Method,” which emphasizes validating product-market fit and achieving early revenue before heavy investment.</p> <p>Today, David is the founder and CEO of Techies, where he helps startups leverage AI, rapid prototyping, and strategic market entry to reduce risks and fuel sustainable growth.</p> </div></div></li></ul></div><div style="margin-top:40px"></div></div></div></div></div></div></section></article></div></div></div></main><div><div class="clearfix"></div><footer id="paywall-scroll-div" class="NewCustomFooter_footer__3vPN8"><div><div class="NewCustomFooter_flexContainer__fqt9b"><div class="NewCustomFooter_footerMainLinksBlock__loDpO"><div class="NewCustomFooter_joinCommunitySocialBlock__KXhav"><div class="NewCustomFooter_followUsBlock__Vb51s"><div 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class="Toastify"></div></div><script id="__NEXT_DATA__" type="application/json">{"props":{"serialUserData":null,"ip":"8.222.208.146","__N_SSP":true,"pageProps":{"podcastTag":"beyond-the-pitch-deck-how-launch-1st-method-reduces-startup-risks","isMobile":false,"userData":{"isAdFree":"0","isPremium":"0","isBot":false},"podCastData":{"name":"Lexicon","description":"","slug":"lexicon","position":1,"page_title":"Interesting Engineering Podcasts","keywords":null,"seo_title":"Lexicon Archives - Interesting Engineering","og_title":"Lexicon Archives - Interesting Engineering","seo_description":"","og_image":0,"og_url":null,"og_type":"podcast","episode_count":78,"episodes":[{"title":"Dynasafe: Making the world safer, one bomb at a time","abstract":"Discover how Dynasafe tackles unexploded ordnance, from innovative bomb containment to eco-friendly solutions. CEO Charlie Diggs shares insights into global safety challenges.","slug":"dynasafe-making-the-world-safer-one-bomb-at-a-time","transcript":"\u003cp\u003eWelcome to today’s episode of Lexicon!\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eI’m Christopher McFadden, a contributing writer for Interesting Engineering.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eIn this episode, we are joined by Charlie Diggs, CEO of Dynasafe, to explore the hidden dangers of unexploded ordnance and the groundbreaking technologies his team uses to make the world a safer place.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eWe discuss the global impact of old munitions, the environmental challenges of underwater bombs, and how Dynasafe is leading the charge in innovative explosive disposal solutions.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eBefore getting into today’s episode, here’s something to elevate your 2025.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eLevel up your knowledge with IE+! Subscribe today to access exclusive premium articles enriched with expert insights and enjoy members-only technical newsletters designed to keep you ahead in technology and science.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eSubscribe now!\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eNow, let\u0026#8217;s continue with today\u0026#8217;s episode.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:00.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie, thanks for joining us. How are you today?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:03.18\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nI\u0026#8217;m great. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:04.40\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOur pleasure. um For our audience\u0026#8217;s benefit, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, please?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:09.04\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\ntough Sure. My name is Charlie Diggs. I\u0026#8217;m the CEO of Dynasafe. I\u0026#8217;ve been ah in the demilitarization business ever since I left the the US Navy as ah as a contractor to the US and then eventually discovered this amazing company called Dynasafe that we actually purchased equipment from to destroy weapons for for the United States. And then a few years later, I joined their team. And then I became the managing director of their US division. They were wanting to start a US company. About five years later, I i i became the global CEO of that company. And then a few years later, I decided to\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:58.10\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nuh, invest where my passion was. And I ah purchased the company from the private group we own. And so, uh, this is, you know, this is all I\u0026#8217;ve ever done is destroy weapons and protect people from exp explosive hazards. And, uh, and that\u0026#8217;s, you know, that\u0026#8217;s where my passion is. And and that\u0026#8217;s why I was attracted to Dynasafe and love what we do.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:21.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nGreat. You look too young to have done so much stuff.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:24.52\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nbut Thank you.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:26.23\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s an interesting story. On to our first question then. So how significant is the issue of unexploded ordnance around the world and can you share any statistics or examples if possible?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:38.70\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, i mean it\u0026#8217;s still very, very significant. If you look globally, the the amount of incidents is pretty flat across the last 20 years of how many incidents has happened. But the severity of those incidents and how many casualties you have has significantly decreased. And that\u0026#8217;s because of of companies like ours that have been able to put in and products um to to mitigate those hazards. but But it\u0026#8217;s still significant. I mean, if you look at, ah take the US BOM data center, they\u0026#8217;ve reported over 320 bombings in in the US.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:21.16\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\num Out of that, I mean, over 6,000 suspicious packages, over 3,200 threats. The amount of threats are actually increasing worldwide. And then if you look at a ah ah global scale, I mean, there was there was over 640 incidences in the world. like And out of those, yeah unfortunately, there was approximately 1,500 casualties. you know So this is a is still very, very relative and needs to be addressed.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:52.76\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOK, so you deal more with sort of terrorist related stuff or old military ordnance or a mixture of the two.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:01.84\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, so so we really have three different kind of sectors of our company or business units. One is what we call protection services.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:12.06\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOK.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:13.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd and that is a containment vessels. That\u0026#8217;s what you would call a bomb chamber. Right.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:19.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nright\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:19.77\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\num We call it protection systems. And that is, ah you know, if you ever watched a movie and you\u0026#8217;ve seen the SWAT team come in with the the robot and they\u0026#8217;re putting it in the white pill and, you know, clearing the area, that white pill, that\u0026#8217;s what we do.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:34.53\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nah So we we don\u0026#8217;t build the robots. We don\u0026#8217;t do any of that. we We take care of the containment vessels. And, you know, you have everything down from a very small hand handheld where two men can carry it type of ah containment chambers all the way up to very large ah chambers that can hold you know tens of kilos of TNT equivalent explosives up to we\u0026#8217;ve we\u0026#8217;ve made some really large custom chambers in our time. But but I mean, that\u0026#8217;s that\u0026#8217;s one sector of of the business and you know the target audience audience there, that\u0026#8217;s going to be\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:11.65\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nyour airports, your your local police, your um bomb squads all over the world. but And you know that\u0026#8217;s that\u0026#8217;s a very international product. And and and then the second kind of you know area of our business is demilitarization. So what that is, is you know getting rid of um obsolete weapons that governments have. It\u0026#8217;s usually, that\u0026#8217;s a governmental, you know we\u0026#8217;re we\u0026#8217;re going to the the national level of the governments sell those type of products. And there we\u0026#8217;re building an entire plant. I mean, we\u0026#8217;re we\u0026#8217;re going from the input conveyors all the way to the detonation chambers and all the way you know through the off-gas treatment system and then then out the out the stack. And we take care of the entire plant. And our engineers design that. We build it. We deliver it to the site. We train our clients. And then either would turn it over or operate ourselves.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:11.80\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd then our third business unit is is really just taking care of those other two, right? It\u0026#8217;s, it\u0026#8217;s you know, selling wear and spare parts, doing training, providing engineering support, um you know,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:23.13\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nOf course, you know, with each generation, you learn more and you can do retrofits to old chamber. with That third business unit is really just supporting those those ah protection and those demilitarization equipment that\u0026#8217;s already in the field in operations. That\u0026#8217;s kind of ah the outlook of Dynasafe.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:42.97\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay. Okay. So so you you mentioned ah what was you know the number of instances of rising, did you say?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:49.74\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nThe number of incidents is relatively staying flat.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:52.64\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:53.38\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nThe good news is the the the the casualties per incident is decreasing, which is a testament to companies like ours.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:58.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nright\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:01.71\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:01.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nFantastic.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:02.82\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:03.02\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nGreat. um Excellent. That\u0026#8217;s good to know. um Fantastic, round to the next question. Well, you\u0026#8217;ve kind of answered this really, but we\u0026#8217;re getting more than it you could hear then.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:14.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo can you explain how what you actually do with Dynasty, the technology you use to address problems such as unexploded bombs or ordnance?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:16.98\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nit\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:24.23\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, so you know as I said, the the containment side of our business is we we design and engineer chambers and those chambers are are very unique in the way that they can contain a lot of explosives at a time. And several of them can actually take repeatable detonations, some of them up to 10 times, um you know depending on the TNT equivalent. they They actually have a very unique locking ring that you can, you know, if you can imagine, I always say like this, a pressure cooker on the stove, whatever it unlocks. Okay. If you think of it like that, it\u0026#8217;s a little more complicated, but if you think of it like that, it unlocks and then it actually can spin up to 270 degrees. So that way the first responder, the the police officer, the OD tech, the, the, the sergeant, whatever can, can actually, you know, utilize the robot and put the suspicious package in, uh, in, in the chamber onto a tray.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:21.06\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nUm, and one of the hardest things, uh, for a first responder is to get that, you know, trailer backed up to where it needs to be. Operate the robot, you know, cause it never lines up in a, in a wide open parking lot with all the space you could ever want. It\u0026#8217;s always a bad situation. When somebody tucks a suspicious item, they put it in a you precarious situation.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:42.23\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo that\u0026#8217;s why we designed it so that way it makes it as easy for those first responders as possible. And and that way they could set it on there, then it will rotate back, actually close together, and then that that locking will lock. And at that point, you\u0026#8217;re safe. And you can you can take that munition or that that package, drive it off, drive it to rank, get away from the people, everybody\u0026#8217;s gonna be safe. If it goes off in there, fine, it\u0026#8217;s okay. But you know the idea is that you would you would take it off to a range,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:10.95\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nyour EOD guys would go in, they would open it up, then they could do their forensics and try to figure out you know where this came from and then, you know, detonate it or dismantle it in a safe manner according to their local procedures.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:23.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo that\u0026#8217;s that\u0026#8217;s, you know, we\u0026#8217;re trying to keep the people safe in that. And then on our, go ahead.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:28.81\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nsorry go.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:31.40\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nOn our demilitarization side, you know, that\u0026#8217;s ah quite different. We\u0026#8217;re usually dealing with two different two different ah scenarios here. It\u0026#8217;s usually stockpiled obsolete clinicians that are very pristine and attractive. And governments usually do a very good job of keeping these safe and secure and they\u0026#8217;re on a military base. And you\u0026#8217;re just, you know, the weapon system is no longer valid or or they\u0026#8217;re just, you know, deteriorating. They\u0026#8217;re just old.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:54.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\num And we\u0026#8217;ve done a lot of chemical and conventional weapons. um My specialty was chemical weapons before I joined Dynasafe. And ah then you\u0026#8217;re just, you know, you\u0026#8217;re you\u0026#8217;re putting those in the input conveyor. That input conveyor is feeding them into an armored, electrically heated chamber. You\u0026#8217;ll heat it up to the point of detonation or deflagration, meaning it\u0026#8217;ll either explode, which is rare, or like crack open and then burn out, ah which is the normal.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:23.06\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd then ah you know those off, you got to now you gotta take care of those gases inside of there that ah come off. And that will go you know through our off gas treatment system. We designed that too. And it will go all the way through our off gas treatment system and they\u0026#8217;ll come out the stack. ah And we monitor that and make sure everything\u0026#8217;s within the the whichever regulation, whether it be EPA or EU or ah wherever we are, whatever air regulation we have to follow,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:50.66\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nI\u0026#8217;ll make sure it\u0026#8217;s that. And that and that that area you\u0026#8217;re breathing that air that\u0026#8217;s coming out of the stack is cleaner than the area you\u0026#8217;re breathing right now in your room. I mean, it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s that clean. So that\u0026#8217;s that\u0026#8217;s kind of what we do on our demilitarization side.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:02.38\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay, so with the containment capsules. and Well, it\u0026#8217;s just depending on the size of the actual explosive that can fit in it, or is is it rated up to a certain.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:14.45\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:14.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nah know\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:14.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nit It rated up to a certain amount that it could it could take. you know um\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:18.69\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:19.96\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd and you know it also depends on what you know what what type of ah debris they put in with it. you know one of the you know One of the most deadly, unfortunately, is is you know like a pipe bomb. That\u0026#8217;s going to create a lot of shrapnel. But our our chambers come with with a, we can put a fragment liner in there. So that way it catches those fragments. And that becomes the wearable piece of the of the chamber. So you could take that out.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:49.48\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nand then, you know, and then put a new one in, so that way your chamber\u0026#8217;s still intact, ah depending on the the limitation. But we have a very high safety factor. So if we say it can hold 10, you know, I mean, that\u0026#8217;s all we would sell it for, but obviously we have a lot of margin of error in our calculations.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:08.41\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd then we test every single chamber that leaves our facility on our Q and X series is tested. So we always detonate the first round in there.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:19.98\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOf course.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:20.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so we have a high degree confidence in our quality and our product.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:26.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nI see. I\u0026#8217;m just trying to think of, because you\u0026#8217;re in a situation, there\u0026#8217;s a bomb there. and Who is putting the bomb in the capsule, the the first responders, or your team recording?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:35.84\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes. No, no, no. It\u0026#8217;d be the first responders.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:38.69\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, so if I put myself in their situation, like, I don\u0026#8217;t know what kind of bomb this is. How do I know what the capsule to put it in? Does that make any sense? so\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:47.46\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. I mean, but you can, you can make some assumptions, right? If, if it\u0026#8217;s, uh, if it\u0026#8217;s we the products we sell are depending on the location.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:50.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:56.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo, um, you know how much you can fit in a backpack, right? You\u0026#8217;re you\u0026#8217;re you\u0026#8217;re only gonna be able to fit, you know, tops, kilos, you know, and in ah in a backpack. You\u0026#8217;re, if it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s fit\u0026#8217;s purse, it now, you know, look, if it\u0026#8217;s a, you know, if it\u0026#8217;s car bomb, there\u0026#8217;s nothing we can do about that. You know, there\u0026#8217;s there\u0026#8217;s other other mechanisms, that\u0026#8217; that that\u0026#8217;s not something that happens, you know, but if we\u0026#8217;re, so our products are geared towards that. If you\u0026#8217;re if you\u0026#8217;re if you\u0026#8217;re selling to an airport, you know, if you\u0026#8217;re you\u0026#8217;re\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e12:28.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\npre-security, you may have a different chamber than if you\u0026#8217;re post-security because you got to assume, okay, post-security, you wouldn\u0026#8217;t have got a large you know golf bag through because you couldn\u0026#8217;t have got that through the checked bag. ah You can only get the checked bag through the TSA or whatever you know security you\u0026#8217;re going through. so Therefore, behind those security checkpoints,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e12:51.50\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou you don\u0026#8217;t need something that large. So we sell a product called like a Q5 or an airport chamber that has a much lower capacity, but it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s a lot cheaper and it\u0026#8217;s more mobile and it could fit through a standard size door, which is more important. So we have to work with the with the different people and say, okay, where where do you think your threat could be? And then and then we can kind of gauge, okay, it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s probably unlikely you\u0026#8217;re ever gonna get you know a threat this large their you mobility is more important for you being able to climb stairs are more important to you, you know, speak, whatever that is. Or if you\u0026#8217;re just, uh, you know, a general police department out in the middle of town, well, you\u0026#8217;re probably gonna need a larger one that you can drag behind a truck on a trailer because you don\u0026#8217;t know what you\u0026#8217;re going to come into. But in the end, uh, if in doubt, throw it in the chamber, it\u0026#8217;s good. You know, you may, you may break the chamber.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:45.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nbut you\u0026#8217;re not gonna, you know, you\u0026#8217;re gonna protect the people and we we would really be out the ah ah chamber than then the people. Yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:55.35\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s a bit of a hypothetical question, but there\u0026#8217;s been, as long as I\u0026#8217;ve been alive, there\u0026#8217;s been talk of dirty bonds, you know, a little portable nuclear warheads, right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:03.86\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:04.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nCould your chambers in theory play a nuclear bond?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:05.21\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYep.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:07.59\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, so. but So we have options for that. yeah We could put lead shielding. you know We can put we could put items on there. Of course, ah those are all options.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:18.55\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nOf course, that you know increases cost, increases weight. but But in those situations, yes, we do have solutions for that um in case that that is a threat in your area.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:34.06\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nGood God.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:35.21\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. Yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:36.04\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOK, I wish I hadn\u0026#8217;t asked.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:39.74\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAgain, right, it\u0026#8217;s kind of off topic because you you don\u0026#8217;t least it doesn\u0026#8217;t sound like you deal with um like old landmines or unexpected bombs actually out in the field.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:48.19\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:50.49\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nor among\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:51.13\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, I actually didn\u0026#8217;t finish my thought a minute ago. I should have, but you know, I was saying that there\u0026#8217;s two different types of demilitarization.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:55.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\num sorry\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:57.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nOne was, uh, you know, the pristine weapons in the container.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:00.10\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:01.76\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nThe other side of that I should have said was, uh, we also deal with, you know, uh, you know, weapons that are like dug out of the ground out of ranges that are, uh, in the, in the water or that are in lakes, they\u0026#8217;re in the ocean.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:10.13\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:15.70\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nUm, you know, that\u0026#8217;s ah that\u0026#8217;s a whole nut Now, we we don\u0026#8217;t go and recover those munitions. That\u0026#8217;s not something that Dynasafe does, but there\u0026#8217;s plenty of amazing companies that do that. um and you know then then that\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s We use the same products, but the methodology is different, and a lot of times the off-gash treatment system is different, but handle that. because You know, the danger there is, you know, what is it? Now we have to, it doesn\u0026#8217;t have good records. It doesn\u0026#8217;t have, you know, it\u0026#8217;s covered in mud or rust or whatever. So we have to be extremely careful and protect those operators, the ones that are destroying that and make sure we have, you know, systems in place. But, you know, the EOD community is is really good at identifying weapons. And there\u0026#8217;s a lot of really smart people that that can do that. So, um but yeah, we we do both sides of that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:06.57\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\num you know So a lot of times what we get is pretty nasty.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:07.56\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:10.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo, uh, it\u0026#8217;s your global, right? So you\u0026#8217;ve all got operations in Europe, UK, presumably.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:15.58\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. So our main offices are in in Sweden. We\u0026#8217;re a Swedish company.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:20.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:21.13\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nOur main office in Sweden, we have, and that\u0026#8217;s where we build all of our chambers and our demilitarization destruction side. In Germany, we have,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:31.28\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:33.18\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nan office and that\u0026#8217;s where all of our engineers design the off-gash treatment system side of Danes. And then in the in the US we have an office and we\u0026#8217;re just now starting to build some of our bomb chambers here for the the US side but that\u0026#8217;s relatively new.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:53.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nah The US is more of a ah corporate and sales office until now and now we\u0026#8217;re standing we\u0026#8217;re we\u0026#8217;re building our first workshop and and and and exploring doing some manufacturing here in the US.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:04.11\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut we have a lot of US contracts for demilitarization because there\u0026#8217;s a push worldwide and a treaty to get rid of all chemical weapons and the US was a bit behind but now they have completed that mission and but we were a big part in doing that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:04.16\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nCool. All right. Yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:18.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nExcellent. So is there any call at all for the sort of chambers for unexploded ordinance found randomly in Europe from from the wars, World War I, World War II at all?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:29.25\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\num I\u0026#8217;m sorry, can you repeat that?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:30.83\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYou get much cooler at any, say there\u0026#8217;s some ground work somewhere in Europe, they\u0026#8217;re building a new car park or something and they dig up an old bomb or or something like that. Could your chamber chambers use to train that?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:41.50\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nso Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, but that\u0026#8217;s exactly what we\u0026#8217;re here for. If you\u0026#8217;re doing construction in London and the and the and you recover an old condition, yeah, they can put them inside of our chambers. um And like I said, then they can transport it out to ah to a safe place. I mean, we we have plants, we have over 40 demilitarization plants all over the world. I think we\u0026#8217;re approaching 500 chambers. So we\u0026#8217;ve been around 33 years. So you know we\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:13.33\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nWe were in, um I think we\u0026#8217;re in 170 countries. So as far as our customers, so, uh, you know, usually we have, you know, a ability to be able to assist them. But yeah, that would be the idea. If you, if, if, you know, you have a construction crew that that uncovers, uh, some hand grenades or, or, you know, around more around or something. Yeah. You call the, you call the police. The police would use our unit and they would come out and, and tuck that away and, uh, and then take it to a the range and let the experts deal with it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:45.06\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nExcellent. on that top On that subject then, and how do unexploded ordnance and the remnants affect ecosystems and biodiversity in affected areas?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:56.93\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, I think, you know, there\u0026#8217;s plenty of, ah there\u0026#8217;s plenty of studies about this. I\u0026#8217;ll highlight, you know, one of the most recent ones that\u0026#8217;s really received a push, and that\u0026#8217;s the underwater munitions.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:10.77\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\num You know, obviously nobody wants to live next to, uh, uh, you know, unexploded ordinance or range or something, but, but governments do a pretty, pretty good job about, you know, maintaining those, keeping the safety distances and taking care of the people. Um, you know, but one area, you know, long time ago, it was very commonplace to to just load munitions, chemical and conventional on a ship and take it out to sea and either sink the ship with the munitions in it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:42.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nor just throw them overboard. And we use the ocean as ah as ah as a garbage dump. And so you know now we\u0026#8217;re paying the price for that. were oh and And everywhere, but you know in and particular, one of the the worst areas right now is the Baltic Sea. I say that, it\u0026#8217;s worst and best. The Baltic region is really seems to be Focused on cleaning that up and there\u0026#8217;s a lot of effort being put into cleaning that up and and we\u0026#8217;re happy to see that it hasn\u0026#8217;t actually you know started the cleaning process, but there\u0026#8217;s a lot of political movement in that direction.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:17.50\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd activists and people getting bored with that, but yeah, I mean, it\u0026#8217;s affecting the fishing industry.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:18.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nHeh heh.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:22.98\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s washing up on shores. It\u0026#8217;s affecting the tourism industry in certain areas where they can\u0026#8217;t use. muition There are certain areas there that every morning the EOD guys have to walk the beach and, you know, pick up any any munitions. But there\u0026#8217;s a lot of studies academia has done in the area. They\u0026#8217;ve done a great job looking at it and, you know, seeing how long we have until munitions start leaking. Some of them are leaking because obviously in those conditions, with the saltwater it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s. a\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:54.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nit\u0026#8217;s deteriorating the metal and then at some point like the chemical weapons or even the even the TNT are gonna leak into the water and that\u0026#8217;s gonna affect your ecosystem. um And there really you know there really just hasn\u0026#8217;t been a push to get rid of them until recent years. So we\u0026#8217;re happy to see that push.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:15.65\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSomething I\u0026#8217;ve always read about what wondered about is torpedoes, because they missed quite a lot, right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:19.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:20.52\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo they\u0026#8217;ve got to go somewhere.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:21.10\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nbut yeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:23.47\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nObviously, they all have small pictures and\u0026#8217;m going off on beaches and whatnot. Now, obviously, that\u0026#8217;s a less common problem, but fishing industry conceivably could pull it up in the nets and cause all sorts of problems.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:30.69\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:36.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, it\u0026#8217;s not uncommon for, now torpedoes are so large that that it\u0026#8217;s harder, but it\u0026#8217;s not uncommon for ah you know fishermen to pull up munitions.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:40.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:46.33\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nI mean, we we hear about that all the time. um it\u0026#8217;s It\u0026#8217;s better whenever the countries have a a good protocol in place and and make that easier because ah then they\u0026#8217;ll actually turn it in and not just throw it back over because they don\u0026#8217;t want to deal with it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:02.74\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\num and um But, you know,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:02.71\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nrule.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:07.84\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nTorpedoes are heavy enough, usually you\u0026#8217;re not going to be washing up. you know The currents will bring the smaller stuff and and throw it on the beach. But we have the same thing, and especially heavily bombed areas of World War I and World War II. Farmers will be plowing the fields, and they\u0026#8217;re still pulling up munitions.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:26.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nIn one country we work in a lot, of they they actually put them in these light poles that have holes in them. And as they as they till up the earth and they find one, they\u0026#8217;ll just run a stick it in the light pole and then the EOD guys come around the truck and pick them up once a week or so. you know and And it\u0026#8217;s become that common place because that area of the world is so heavily bombed at World War I. And you\u0026#8217;re still collecting And then what they do is they take it to a facility and then they clean it and identify it and actually destroy it one of our chambers. um So it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s still a problem and it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s going to be for you know a long time.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:04.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah Especially land mines, obviously a big problem and it\u0026#8217;s going to be a legacy problem in places like Ukraine, presumably next 10 years or so.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:13.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s the cost of war that you don\u0026#8217;t think about. And you know the the sad part is is oh after any war, not just Ukraine, but any war, after the the military gets done fighting and we lose life on the on the military side, every munition has a dud rate. It can be very, very low. But when you when you start you know sending hundreds of thousands of munitions, there\u0026#8217;s going to be some live ones.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:44.02\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nand And what\u0026#8217;s going to happen, right? Normally, you know, a lot of them take take a, you know, cluster rendition or grenade that looks like a ball, right? So, you know, little boys, little girls are going to go out there and throw it around and, and you know, one of them could be live. And and it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s very unfortunate. Now we have a lot of great NGOs and and and clearance people that will rush in and try to prevent that from happening. It\u0026#8217;s not something Dynasafe does, but there are a lot of ah a lot of organizations that try to mitigate that as fast as possible, but, uh, there, there\u0026#8217;s always a remote war and, and, you know, we\u0026#8217;ll be there decades cleaning up after, after that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:28.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely, very sad. and You\u0026#8217;ve kind of answered this one, but I\u0026#8217;ll ask anyway. but What makes dinosaurs approach to disposing of unexploded ordnance unique compared to traditional methods?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:33.72\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:40.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, I think, you know, of course, of course I\u0026#8217;m biased because, you know, I love our company, but we\u0026#8217;re, you know, we\u0026#8217;re one of the few military or defense contractors that this is all we do. We don\u0026#8217;t make weapons. We don\u0026#8217;t ah We just destroy weapons and that\u0026#8217;s what we focus on. And and you know we\u0026#8217;ve been asked to partner with people and and and get into that business. And that\u0026#8217;s not our legacy. That\u0026#8217;s not what we want to do. We\u0026#8217;re we\u0026#8217;re not interested in that. We\u0026#8217;re interested in making the world a safer and cleaner place by by mitigating explosive hazards. and and And that\u0026#8217;s what we care about. So when you focus on that, you can be very passionate about that. And I think it allows us to attract very, very good people.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:27.07\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nvery good engineers, very good technicians, very good, ah you know, non-engineer in positions because they\u0026#8217;re, you know, you can really get behind our calls and what we do. And I think you\u0026#8217;re you\u0026#8217;re able to attract those people. So, you know, our product, you know,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:46.29\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nWe believe we have the best product in the industry, of course. I think we\u0026#8217;ve proven that. We we get soul sourced a lot. we where We\u0026#8217;re definitely the premier product. But the reason we are is because we have premier people and and we can attract those people because, ah you know, I like to say, you know, what we do is good and we\u0026#8217;re good at what we do, you know.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:10.67\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nthat\u0026#8217; fair enough When you said that, I was thinking of the film 300.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:14.97\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nwell\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:15.53\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nHow many soldiers do you have?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:17.54\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nWell, i don\u0026#8217;t have I don\u0026#8217;t have the abs for that, so.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:21.96\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnyway, and so what have you found are the biggest challenges Dynasafe has faced deploying its solutions in in conflict zones, if you\u0026#8217;ve done so, or heavily contaminated areas?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:34.34\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, we don\u0026#8217;t deploy too much while a conflict is happening. That\u0026#8217;s something you know usually it\u0026#8217;s afterwards. um And so that\u0026#8217;s not too relevant. ah you know to what we do. Normally it\u0026#8217;s over and and the area clearance guys have already gone in there and cleaned everything up and and then we come in and destroy everything. It doesn\u0026#8217;t mean we\u0026#8217;re not without risk, but we we\u0026#8217;re not actively in zones like that. Yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:08.59\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nright any plans to in the future, I presume not.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:11.19\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nah No, i mean I mean, we, you know, of course we will support um you know, wherever it makes sense and wherever we can assure the safety of our employees. If, you know, if asked, of course, we would try to train, you know, soldiers or whoever was going in, but we wouldn\u0026#8217;t put our employees in that, you know, in that type of environment.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:46.62\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\num Not without a, you know, they have to be a tremendous reason to do that. And I can\u0026#8217;t imagine us doing that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:53.66\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s fair enough. Fair answer.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:56.04\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:56.01\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nHave you been approached at all by, so I don\u0026#8217;t know, the US Army for some kind of battlefield version of your containment vessels at all?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:04.06\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nI mean, yeah, of course. um you know We have very mobile units um and and we\u0026#8217;ve ah you know we\u0026#8217;ve been approached by that, not just the US, just you know different general ideas. and Of course, you know you know, there\u0026#8217;s been concepts of, you know, several miles back, being able to transport munitions. And, ah you know, there\u0026#8217;s some players in the world, how you know, name any of them, but we know that if we ever got an opportunity to go in and destroy those weapons, then it would be good for the world. And and we would, of course, assist in the best way we could by training their\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:46.04\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\ntheir military personnel. But we haven\u0026#8217;t really done much of that. We\u0026#8217;ve we\u0026#8217;ve done some concept stuff with a different countries, ah especially you know countries bordering other countries that maybe you would like to get rid of the weapons there, especially you know chemical warfare and and and that that type of um weaponry. we But you know our our bread and butter is is is you know stable areas and and you know having to transport it back.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:13.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOops, that\u0026#8217;s fair enough. um So looking ahead then, are there any new exciting technologies or methods ah that Dynasafe is developing to improve ordinance detection and or disposal?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:14.65\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nyep\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:25.29\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, I mean, we\u0026#8217;re we\u0026#8217;re doing some really cool things on the on our containment vessels. We\u0026#8217;re you know changing some of our designs and getting those with higher NEW net explosive weight limits. um And you know those are neat areas. Only on the demilitarization side,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:51.01\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\noh We\u0026#8217;re really kind of focusing, we\u0026#8217;re coming out of the chemical weapon era error and into the conventional era. So we\u0026#8217;re doing a lot of, as a company, standardization and getting our product standardized and interchangeable with different ah areas. For instance, our off-gas treatment systems, we\u0026#8217;re building those on modules now. And so you can just plug and kind of play a little more complicated than that. But imagine, you know, whatever your need is, you can Plug and play what you need. And the idea is to get the cost down. So that way more people can afford our services, you know, because unfortunately they\u0026#8217;re.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:33.03\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nsome places that can\u0026#8217;t afford our services that probably need them. um And so we\u0026#8217;re trying to, you know, get things more mobile. That\u0026#8217;s a system we have going now and it has it\u0026#8217;s tremendous success. And so we\u0026#8217;re we\u0026#8217;re trying to use that as a model. Because it would be a neat concept, like if, ah you know, the United Nations or somebody, they don\u0026#8217;t currently, but if they own one of these and could move it around,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:57.48\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nto different locations that needed help, but maybe couldn\u0026#8217;t ah afford services like a company like ours. That would be a tremendous asset to the world, we think. So we\u0026#8217;re doing some ah some R and\u0026amp;D. We\u0026#8217;re doing some stuff in single use disposable stuff. R and\u0026amp;D department is. So you know ah a soldier is ah out in the field and and discovers a a you know round chemical open round.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:23.21\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nhow can he you know how can they take out that one individual rounds that way it can\u0026#8217;t be used as an IED later or something like that. So it\u0026#8217;s\u0026#8217;re we\u0026#8217;re constantly we got a great R and\u0026amp;D department and they\u0026#8217;re they\u0026#8217;re constantly coming up with the really cool ideas of stuff for the future.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:39.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely, something that would be really cool. See, soldiers in a trench grenade comes in, some kind of thing, they can stick on it to contain the blast.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:47.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:48.74\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat would be really cool. Have you got any plans for sort of developing your own kind of robots at all?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:50.01\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, it is.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:55.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nif they would\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:55.72\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nNo, I mean, um, not at the time that, that, that market, uh, there\u0026#8217;s a lot of people that do that really well.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:03.07\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:03.34\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nUm, so there\u0026#8217;s no point in, uh, you know, trying to compete with people that are already doing something really well. If we saw, um, if we saw a need, of course, would be willing to invest in that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:16.32\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut right now, um, we let, you know, the robot people do that and we\u0026#8217;ll stick to what we do best. Yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:22.92\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nthat So your decommissioning plants, are they ah presumably less starved or are they more or less automated?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:29.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo there\u0026#8217;s staff to a certain level, but I mean, it\u0026#8217;s a high level of automation. So worker safety is so important to us that we have most of ours.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:33.98\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\noh\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:40.59\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYou just put it in a cardboard box on an input conveyor, and then you walk away. You load up a line of, you know say, 12, 15 boxes, whatever the the knee case is.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:51.19\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd then you would ah go to a control room that\u0026#8217;s ah you know several hundred meters away, or and then you would you would operate it remotely. So we have a high degree of automation. We have redundancy after redundancy after redundancy in place and in case something happens. We have you know safety protocols throughout the plant in our automation, but then also fail safes that are mechanical in case you were to lose all power.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:21.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\num ah So, but you know typically there\u0026#8217;s not a lot of a human interaction that\u0026#8217;s needed. Um, and we\u0026#8217;ve even gotten to where, um, some of our, our systems were using robots to load the, uh, the, the line. And we\u0026#8217;ve even experimented a little bit with using like the, uh, the ground, uh, robots to bring them in, but ultimately a person has to put them somewhere. Right. You know, uh, so, you know, we\u0026#8217;re, we\u0026#8217;re expanding what we can do with automation.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:57.76\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd that\u0026#8217;s great for sophisticated clients that can afford that. um But in the again, we also have to think about and how do we make our equipment accessible to everyone, not just the the larger governments. So that way we can we can be able to destroy weapons to everyone that needs it. So we have to kind of go in two different directions when we\u0026#8217;re thinking about ah you know, what we\u0026#8217;re developing, we have to think, you know, what\u0026#8217;s, what\u0026#8217;s the highest degree of automation and and everything, but also what\u0026#8217;s achievable.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:31.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo that way everyone can enjoy our products.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:33.90\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay. I\u0026#8217;ve regards to waste and at the end of the cycle, you mentioned the air is very clean, comes out the stack.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:38.47\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYep. Absolutely.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:40.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWhat other waste materials are produced then and are they safe for disposal? How do you dispose of them?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:45.82\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely. So, so, uh, You know, I\u0026#8217;ll i\u0026#8217;ll brag, our off-gas treatment systems, to my knowledge, somebody may correct me on this um podcast, but to my knowledge, we\u0026#8217;re the only off-gas treatment system in the world as wastewater free. Our engineers have designed a completely wastewater free off-gas treatment system, and I haven\u0026#8217;t seen one of those before or heard of one. And so all you\u0026#8217;re going to have, you\u0026#8217;re going to have the scrap metal that comes out from your munitions.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:13.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd that is going to be to a cleanliness level that you can just send it to a local recycler. You can go to a smelter or local recycler. So you\u0026#8217;ll get a little bit of money for that. And then you\u0026#8217;re going to have some salts. That\u0026#8217;s going to come out of, you know, as your water is evaporating in the off gas treatment system.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:34.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd then um we we do have a back house in most of our systems. So therefore you\u0026#8217;re going to have a, you know, some amount of pre-coat sodium bicarbonate, but most all of us going to be non-hats. So it\u0026#8217;s very little. I mean, you\u0026#8217;re talking a couple of 55 gallon drums a week. And of course your metal, but your metal is going to be, you know, ah\u0026#8217;ll you know, a a small profit margin for you, you know, as an operating\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:05.10\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand chi and So with the salts can they be used for anything else? Or do they have to just be disposed of?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:10.87\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou know we You know, they probably could.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:10.76\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nCan they go into a raw material for something?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:16.04\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nwe There\u0026#8217;s so few, though, i mean that that we just usually ship it off to an off-site disposal ah you know system. ah if If there was a large amount, we would try to figure out something.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:29.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s so little such a small amount. Yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:33.96\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nthat\u0026#8217;s fair enough curious and Okay, and so last question. then um What role does public awareness play in addressing the dangers of unexploded ordinance and how can individuals and communities contribute to said solutions?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:50.21\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, I think, you know, that\u0026#8217;s a good question. So going back to the underwater munitions, okay?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:55.35\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThank you.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:57.56\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\num The only reason that\u0026#8217;s really getting attention is because people are demanding attention, right? So, you know, you have you have this problem.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:09.25\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nwe We know it\u0026#8217;s a problem. We know that, you know, munitions being underwater and leaking is bad. I think everybody can agree that\u0026#8217;s a bad thing. um oh But there\u0026#8217;s really very little commercial reason to clean that up. okay The government\u0026#8217;s put it there you know at some point.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:27.92\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut there is you know offshore wind farms and things of that nature that put a little bit of pressure, but not enough. I mean, usually they\u0026#8217;re just looking for a clean place to put their items. They don\u0026#8217;t want to go and clean it up, why would they? There\u0026#8217;s no commercial reason for that. So it it has to be a a government that takes the decision or a consortium of governments that take a decision that say, okay, we\u0026#8217;re gonna do this. We\u0026#8217;re gonna, and NGOs can help with that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:54.97\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou know nonprofits can and really be in a system that, but the people, you know, telling their their local politicians, you know, this is something that we\u0026#8217;re not going to tolerate. Of course, you know, economic factors help or hurt, depending how you look at it. As the as economic factors are b are b you know hurting the area, then, of course, the the attention walk will come to that. You know, but there\u0026#8217;s another. I\u0026#8217;ll take, oh,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:19.27\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nA common way to destroy munitions in a lot of countries is, including sophisticated countries, is just to pile them up in a field and burn them. It\u0026#8217;s called an open burden, open detonation. okay that\u0026#8217;s That is a very common way.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:35.19\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nI think we can all agree that piling up munitions in a field and burning it is probably bad. That\u0026#8217;s not a good you know solution. um But until the local community around those areas say, look, we\u0026#8217;re not going to tolerate that. We\u0026#8217;re not going to have that going into our air. We\u0026#8217;re not going to have the contamination to our soil afterwards or getting into our water. or what we\u0026#8217;re not going to we\u0026#8217;re not gonna put up with that. I mean, then you know that creates political pressure, which then causes attention in that area and causes us budgets to be set aside in order to to get a system kind of like ours, which that won\u0026#8217;t happen. you know um So those are areas that you you know you have to, local people can get involved, NGOs can get involved um and and really help out.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:26.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nbut put the the pressure there that\u0026#8217;s needed because there\u0026#8217;s not going to be a, a we do some commercial stuff, but that there\u0026#8217;s not going to be a lot of commercial pressure there.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:37.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, that sounds about right, yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:40.64\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:40.61\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nI mean, you\u0026#8217;ve kind of scared me a bit, so they don\u0026#8217;t do that with chemical weapons, I hope. But pile them up in a field and just burn them.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:47.57\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nno No, no, no, not chemical weapons. Sorry. No, no, no, no. I\u0026#8217;m talking about conventional weapons.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:51.46\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, that\u0026#8217;s all right.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:52.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nNo, not not chemical weapons. They wouldn\u0026#8217;t do that. I mean, they there are chemical weapons that have been dumped in the ocean. but that was I mean, that was so long ago where they were just, you know, they thought of the ocean much different than we think of it now.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:59.51\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOh, I bet.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:06.12\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nah They don\u0026#8217;t think about the ecosystem like we we think about nowadays. yeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:10.80\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\none how much damage that has done though over the days and\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:13.80\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:14.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nin fact\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:14.44\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nThere\u0026#8217;s plenty of studies that show um and and there\u0026#8217;s some You know, really smart people have done those calculations and it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s not good, but you can imagine how costly that is to correct me. It\u0026#8217;s not like going to land, oh you know, but Hey, technology is there.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:31.14\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nI mean, the we have we have UAVs, we have crawlers, we have we have all these things now.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:36.19\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s one how much damage that has done though, over the years.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:36.65\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd that\u0026#8217;s nothing Dynasafe does. That\u0026#8217;s what other companies do. But I mean, all these companies have have these these great tools. They can go get um and And if they can get them to the surface, then Dynasafe can take care of them.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:49.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo that\u0026#8217;s um so it\u0026#8217;s a just like a consortium of countries need to come together to address some of these problems, yeah ah you know a consortium of of companies will come together and resolve this problem.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:02.80\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nA bit of a random question, but is there Like under a certain depth where it\u0026#8217;s not really a problem, you know, like a bomb falls in the middle of the Mariana Trench. It\u0026#8217;s not really going to be a problem long-term. Or might is that the stupid question?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:19.62\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nWell, I don\u0026#8217;t know. ah I\u0026#8217;m not a scientist. ah But I guess, obviously, if if we were going to be deciding what to go after first, it wouldn\u0026#8217;t be that area.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:31.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. yeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:34.54\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt would be the more shallow waters and the more areas where people are going to be. that we we we have I\u0026#8217;ll put it this way.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:40.93\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOf course,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:44.10\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nWe have 100 years worth of work in those areas before we get to the others. Yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:49.35\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah. Yeah, the munitions are probably long gone by then, aren\u0026#8217;t they?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:49.67\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:51.61\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThe deeper oceans, they\u0026#8217;d have\u0026#8230;\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:53.12\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah yeah yep but those Those would probably not be on the top priority list.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:58.35\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, that\u0026#8217;s fair enough.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:59.70\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:59.86\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay, that is the end of my questions. Is there anything else you\u0026#8217;d like to mention that you think feels important that you haven\u0026#8217;t touched on?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e42:07.96\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nNo, I appreciate the opportunity to come on and and and and speak with you.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e42:12.67\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOur pleasure. That\u0026#8217;s been very very interesting. With that then, thank you Charlie. That was great.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e42:18.59\u003cbr /\u003e\nCharlie Diggs\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay, thank you. All right.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eThat concludes this episode of Lexicon.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eThank you all for tuning in and being our guest today.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eFollow our social media channels for the latest science and technology news. Also, don’t forget to subscribe to IE+ for premium insights and exclusive content!\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eGoodbye for now.\u003c/p\u003e\n","episode_number":"78","sponsor_image":null,"sponsor_name":null,"sponsor_url":null,"hosts":[{"name":"Christopher McFadden","title":"Host","biography":"\u003cp\u003eChristopher graduated from Cardiff University in 2004 with a Masters Degree in Geology. Since then, he has worked exclusively within the Built Environment, Occupational Health and Safety and Environmental Consultancy industries. He is a qualified and accredited Energy Consultant, Green Deal Assessor and Practitioner member of IEMA. Chris’s main interests range from Science and Engineering, Military and Ancient History to Politics and Philosophy.\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/avatars/XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","title":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","name":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","description":"N/A","alt_text":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","reference":null}}],"speakers":[{"name":"Charles Diggs","title":"CEO of Dynasafe","biography":"\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eCharles Diggs is the Chief Executive Officer of Dynasafe. Passionate about making the world a safer, cleaner place, he initially joined Dynasafe in 2014 as Managing Director for the Americas after destroying chemical weapons for the US Army as a contractor for over 11 years. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eCharles has also served as a contractor for destroying weapons for the US Army and as a Nuclear-Trained Mechanical Technician in the US Navy Submarine Service. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eIn addition, he possesses an Associate of Science (Engineering) Degree and a Bachelor of Science in Business Management from Jacksonville State Univ\u003c/span\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eersity.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/charles-diggs.png","title":"charles-diggs.png","name":"charles-diggs.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"charles-diggs.png","reference":null}}],"introductions":"\u003cp\u003eIn this episode, we are joined by \u003ca href=\"https://dynasafe.com/about-us/management/\"\u003eCharlie Diggs\u003c/a\u003e, CEO of \u003ca href=\"https://dynasafe.com/\"\u003eDynasafe\u003c/a\u003e, to explore the hidden dangers of unexploded ordnance and the groundbreaking technologies his team uses to make the world a safer place.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eWe discuss the global impact of old munitions, the environmental challenges of underwater bombs, and how Dynasafe is leading the charge in innovative explosive disposal solutions.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eAlso, don’t forget to subscribe to \u003ca href=\"https://interestingengineering.com/subscribe\"\u003eIE+\u003c/a\u003e for premium insights and exclusive content!\u003c/p\u003e\n","host_introductions":null,"speakers_introductions":null,"player_code":"https://interestingengineering.com/podcast/lexicon/dynasafe-making-the-world-safer-one-bomb-at-a-time","publish_date":"2025-02-13T13:00:58+00:00","publish_date_detail":"Feb 13, 2025 08:00 AM EST","status":1,"page_title":"Dynasafe: Making the world safer, one bomb at a time","keywords":"Dynasafe","description":"","seo_title":"Dynasafe: Making the world safer, one bomb at a time - Interesting Engineering","og_title":"Dynasafe: Making the world safer, one bomb at a time - Interesting Engineering","og_image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-26.png","title":"1-26.png","name":"1-26.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"1-26.png","reference":null},"og_url":null,"og_type":null,"main_image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-26.png","title":"1-26.png","name":"1-26.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"1-26.png","reference":null}},{"title":"Timing is everything: how SiTime drives innovation in modern electronics","abstract":"SiTime is revolutionizing the $10B timing industry with its MEMS-based precision timing solutions, enabling faster, more resilient, and energy-efficient electronics across AI, EVs, IoT, and beyond.","slug":"timing-is-everything-how-sitime-drives-innovation-in-modern-electronics","transcript":"\u003cp\u003eWelcome to today\u0026#8217;s episode of Lexicon! I am Christopher McFadden, a contributing writer for Interesting Engineering.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eIn this episode, we sit down with Piyush Sevalia, Executive Vice President of Marketing at SiTime, to explore how their cutting-edge MEMS-based precision timing technology is revolutionizing modern electronics.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003ePiyush shares how SiTime solves the toughest challenges in the $10B timing industry, from AI data centers to electric vehicles and wearables.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eBefore getting into today’s episode, here’s something to elevate your 2025.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eLevel up your knowledge with IE+! Subscribe today to access exclusive premium articles enriched with expert insights and enjoy members-only technical newsletters designed to keep you ahead in technology and science.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:00.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush, thanks for joining us. How are you today?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:03.52\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nI\u0026#8217;m very well. Thank you. Pleasure to be here.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:06.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOur pleasure. and For our audience\u0026#8217;s benefit, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, please?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:11.96\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nSure. My name is Piyush Savalya. I\u0026#8217;m the EVP of Marketing at SITIME. I have a responsibility for all aspects of marketing, but also responsibility for the BU\u0026#8217;s that we have and they\u0026#8217;re reporting it to me. So we have this beast defends be a BU, a comms enterprise data center, BU,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:31.94\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nmobile IoT consumer industrial view and ah finally basically an automotive view. So responsible for that too. I\u0026#8217;ve been in the industry for about 34 years now, pretty much semi guy all the way through. um Started as an apps engineer, applications engineer, moved over to the dark side as they call it marketing about 30 years ago and loved it so much that I\u0026#8217;ve been there.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:00.51\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\num and and And quite unusual for Silicon Valley. This is only my third company in my 34-year career. I kind of like to go in early and then help build companies. So I came to CyTime in 2008 when we were almost a pre-revenue company. I think we had shipped a little bit. And here you go. That\u0026#8217;s where we are right now. We\u0026#8217;re going to be doing we haven\u0026#8217;t announced yet so in the range of give or take 200 million is what the financial analysts have us at last year with a market cap of close to five to six billion clearly we are being valued for growth and so that\u0026#8217;s my job how do we build the customer relationships how do we get the products out that a that basically help us drive the growth and innovation forward.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:42.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\none\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:54.61\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nExcellent. excellent Very varied career then. Excellent. um Kind of the first question. and What\u0026#8217;s the um the key innovation behind Site Time\u0026#8217;s new timing solution and how does it enhance AI workloads in data centers?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:10.11\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo let\u0026#8217;s step back for a moment and let\u0026#8217;s talk about timing and what innovation we have there. And then we\u0026#8217;ll move to data centers if you don\u0026#8217;t mind.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:19.64\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nbut of course\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:21.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\num so So all modern electronics needs timing as a reference signal. Literally, timing is considered the heartbeat of electronics. So the timing signal isn\u0026#8217;t there.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:33.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nElectronics is not going to work. and and just ah a reference for timing when you look when you buy a PC and it says the processor is running at 1.8 gigahertz or something like that. Well, that\u0026#8217;s your timing signal that\u0026#8217;s coming out that\u0026#8217;s going into the processor. And basically, that the the faster the speed of, the higher the frequency of timing, but usually the faster the system, usually. And so timing plays a very critical role in in electronics.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:04.65\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nThere have been numerous instances where timing got interrupted or something bad happened to timing and the whole system stopped working. So anyway, that\u0026#8217;s what timing does. For the last 70, 80 years, timing has been the the technology for timing has been quartz crystals. And so literally, you you take a quartz crystal, used to be natural previously, now it\u0026#8217;s all artificially grown, you cut it at different angles to get different frequencies out of the device.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:33.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nand then you marry it to an electronic circuit. So you take the mechanical resonant vibrations of the quartz crystal and you convert it to electrical energy through a circuit, an analog circuit, and that\u0026#8217;s an oscillator circuit. And so the quartz industry has done a pretty good job of of actually delivering ah these devices to the timing industry. I mean you pretty much open most electronics today and it will have multiple timing devices in there. it\u0026#8217;s We estimate it\u0026#8217;s about a 10 billion dollar market today. We think it\u0026#8217;s going to grow to about 20 billion over the next half decade to decade um and and we are focused on a particular aspect of this 10 billion dollar market.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:22.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nwhich what which is what we call precision timing. So the reason for precision timing\u0026#8217;s existence is that today\u0026#8217;s electronics is different than the electronics of the past. It\u0026#8217;s a lot faster.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:35.18\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nit\u0026#8217;s It\u0026#8217;s basically always connected. And ah not it\u0026#8217;s a lot more intelligent, meaning you\u0026#8217;re pushing the intelligence closer and closer to the customer.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:47.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\num Alexa devices and and Siri and all these devices, that\u0026#8217;s one form of intelligence, but there\u0026#8217;s a lot of other things that happen in these devices that\u0026#8217;s happening in the background that you don\u0026#8217;t even know about, but it\u0026#8217;s there and it\u0026#8217;s making certain decisions based on this. So now in this context for a device to be always connected, to be always working, oh to have the processing power for this intelligence, to have the the communication when you communicate data decisions, whatever to the network, you got to have a very good and clean timing devices. Actually, a clean timing signal, and that has to come from a device. Now, here\u0026#8217;s the here\u0026#8217;s the other interesting part, which has changed in the last three, four, five years. This electronics is getting subject to harsher and harsher conditions.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:40.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nMmhmm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:41.70\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo let\u0026#8217;s give a few examples. Think about your cell phone. Five, seven, 10 years ago, there was a cellular protocol in there, and there was a Wi-Fi signal in there. Then we had a Bluetooth. Then we had an NFC for contactless payments.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:57.74\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nThen we added radar for various kinds of functions in there in some phones. You\u0026#8217;ve got la now at least five different wireless protocols inside a cell phone that are going to cause interference with each other.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:09.83\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nA timing device has to operate and deliver a clean signal in the presence of these.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:14.53\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nHuh.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:14.96\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnother example is is ah GPS signal. We\u0026#8217;ve heard instances of how the GPS signal is moved or it\u0026#8217;s jammed and that causes all kinds of issues.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:27.23\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nah airplanes being off course and things like that. But what if what if you imagined a world where the GPS signal remained ah true in spite of all these disturbers, whether artificial or natural, or whether man-made disturbers or natural disturbers. And if that was the case, ah you would always have a good GPS signal therefore you could always know how, where you were located. A third example is basically you look at a car. The amount of electronics in a car has gone up dramatically as you get to ADAS level 2, level 2.5 support today and you strive towards ADAS level 4 or level 5 in the next half decade to a decade.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:22.14\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nand and But a car is not a pristine environment. I mean, if you think of the PCs from 20 years ago, they were sitting in air conditioned offices with a constant temperature on someone\u0026#8217;s desk. Not the same anymore. man I mean, you\u0026#8217;ve got that power in a cell phone and you\u0026#8217;re carrying it around with you and it\u0026#8217;s going to drop. It\u0026#8217;s going to do stuff. Same thing with a car. It\u0026#8217;s moving. It\u0026#8217;s going through different temperatures. I mean, it\u0026#8217;s running hot in the engine. It could be in the Arctic and it could still be 125 degrees inside the engine.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:51.72\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nah or basically you\u0026#8217;re going through a bad road and there\u0026#8217;s a lot of vibrations going on and shock. In all of these environments, the timing has to operate reliably because if it doesn\u0026#8217;t, you\u0026#8217;re going to lose whatever processing and connectivity you have in the car. And and and so so that\u0026#8217;s the backdrop for what\u0026#8217;s changing in the electronics industry, and that\u0026#8217;s where we come in. Our core technology allows us to create our devices to be much more environmentally resilient\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:23.64\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nwhich devices of the past. And we\u0026#8217;re talking orders of magnitude more resilient. And so for example, very common example, yeah suppose there\u0026#8217;s a timing device, there\u0026#8217;s multiple timing devices in a base station, but suppose there\u0026#8217;s a timing device that\u0026#8217;s driving the cellular connectivity and the base station is mounted on top of an electricity pole that\u0026#8217;s next to a railway line.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:46.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nA freight train goes by, that electricity pole is vibrating,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:49.64\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay. Hmm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:51.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nthat day station is vibrating, that vibration is going to couple into the timing device because ultimately the heart of the timing device is a mechanical vibrating resonant element. um and and And so it\u0026#8217;s going to couple and it\u0026#8217;s going to cause problems with the timing signal. We eliminate that. So whether it is vibrations, whether it is shock, whether it is air flow, which causes rapid changes in temperatures,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:17.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nwhether it is electrical noise coming from multiple protocols or things like that, our devices are more immune and more resilient to these disturbers than anything else. And that plays in really well with today\u0026#8217;s electronics. So so so that\u0026#8217;s that\u0026#8217;s what we don\u0026#8217;t do. How do we do it? So there\u0026#8217;s three components to our device. One is what we call the MEMS resonator.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:42.51\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nResonator is basically a mechanical element that vibrates at a resonant frequency. The mechanical vibrations of this resonator are converted to electrical energy, a clock signal by means of an analog circuit called an oscillator. We design our own MEMS resonators. We design our own oscillators. That\u0026#8217;s different than the quartz industry where they design their own quartz resonators, but typically by the analog from semiconductor companies.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:08.50\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:08.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nBecause we designed the two together in house, there\u0026#8217;s a lot of co-optimization that happens. And when you put those two devices in a package to create an oscillator, that co-optimization, we believe, helps us make one plus one equals three. We get some value add from the co-optimization so that we can deliver better things to the customer.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:31.53\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nAt the heart of the resonator, the the the the benefit of our resonators is that they\u0026#8217;re extremely tiny. Our MEMS resonator is 0.5 by 0.5 millimeters in size. The mass of our MEMS resonator, and and compare that to a quartz crystal, the smallest quartz crystal you\u0026#8217;ll see out there, is basically\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:55.90\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\n1 by 0.8 millimeter, so so basically 0.8 millimeter square versus our 0.25 millimeter square. ah and And the mainstream in quartz is down in the 1.6 by 1, so 1.6 millimeter square size. So you see the size difference, and and what that translates into is a difference in the mass of the device.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:21.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nClassic physics forces mass times acceleration, whatever the acceleration is, whether it\u0026#8217;s vibration, whether it\u0026#8217;s shock, whatever that for whatever that acceleration factor is. If that\u0026#8217;s constant, the lower the mass, the less energy couples onto your device. That\u0026#8217;s the benefit that our MEMS resonators give. They\u0026#8217;re much smaller in mass, so less energy couples. That\u0026#8217;s how we are able to achieve the mechanical resilience. The electrical resilience we are able to achieve by a very careful design of the analog devices.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:50.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nWe\u0026#8217;ve got like some of the best analog designers in the world, and these guys basically make sure that that our devices are immune to all these outside disturbers. So that\u0026#8217;s the heart of the technology that we put in our devices that allows us to deliver what we deliver and change the world of timing. And our focus really is on solving customers\u0026#8217; problems with innovation.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e12:16.74\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nCustomers themselves don\u0026#8217;t know what kind of problems they\u0026#8217;re going to face in this new world of intelligent connected electronics. And our job is to anticipate to the extent we can and solve them. And not just that, but if a customer runs into a problem halfway through the design cycle, we are there for them because our devices can be configured very easily. They\u0026#8217;re programmable.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e12:39.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so we\u0026#8217;re there for them. We can do all kinds of stuff in our devices to give them give them a solution that will work and not delay their time to revenue. So that\u0026#8217;s what we do. and And that\u0026#8217;s the heart of the technology that we\u0026#8217;ve had lots more behind it. I mean, but we we we spend the most in R and\u0026amp;D of any time in company. I mean, I think we are like at least two to three times more spend in R\u0026amp;D than anybody else, even companies bigger than us.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:07.90\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nbecause we\u0026#8217;re so focused on the innovation, so focused on solving the customer\u0026#8217;s problem. And I mean, I have many customers that have managed just the timing device. And you see the amount of technology that goes in there and a little bit of black magic that goes in there because all this analog stuff is is not ah easy to solve.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:28.32\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nand And so there\u0026#8217;s a lot of technology that we ship into our devices.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:29.39\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt was.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:32.54\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nFantastic. It always surprises me when I hear how analog tech is still required, even in highly sophisticated devices. Incredible.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:41.11\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah that\u0026#8217;s just That\u0026#8217;s just how it is.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:42.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\num\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:43.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou know You\u0026#8217;re operating in the real world. So it\u0026#8217;s not the digital world.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:46.57\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:48.02\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s the real world. So you have to have some kind of, ah I mean, I learned that a long time ago, debugging systems in the lab. And it\u0026#8217;s like, I mean, you go to an analog engineer who\u0026#8217;s been around the block a few times and they\u0026#8217;ll give you the best steps.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:02.84\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nThey\u0026#8217;ll tell you how to solve your problems much, much faster than anybody else.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:06.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, I bet. ah Brings us on nice to next question. And so how how does the the MEMS tech differ to courts, existing courts based solutions?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:17.51\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo many differences, but at the heart of it, the MEMS is built with silicon. Now silicon is the most abundant, I mean quartz crystal, it\u0026#8217;s silicon dioxide.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:29.47\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:30.46\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nah But so the MEMS is built in silicon. silicon The silicon industry, I mean to me, i mean i and I\u0026#8217;ve been in it for 34 years, anytime it touches an incumbent technology, it always wins.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:44.68\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nI mean, you think about it. I mean, you used to have vacuum tubes that move to transistors that move to ICs and now it\u0026#8217;s all ICs. I mean, yeah, there are vacuum tubes and specialized applications. For the most part, the bulk of the industry is ICs. You look at gyroscopes, mechanical devices. When a MEMS gyroscope came out, suddenly the market just expanded. And now you have MEMS gyroscopes in your phones, in in cars and a bunch of different places.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:09.77\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nso So why does silicon take over and become the incumbent and displace the previous incumbent technology? It\u0026#8217;s because silicon gives you more features. It gives you higher performance. It gives you smaller size. It gives you better reliability, lower power, potentially lower prices. So all these different things are encapsulated in the silicon industry. That\u0026#8217;s why it\u0026#8217;s the hottest industry on the planet today. And and and so that\u0026#8217;s That\u0026#8217;s what we do. We build it with silicon. So what does that mean? I mean, we do batch processing. When we build a batch of MEMS wafers, we basically have like 25 wafers, each wafer having 100,000 dye on there that\u0026#8217;s built all together and processed together in a silicon path versus the quartz site where it\u0026#8217;s a different manufacturing process.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:05.47\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:06.03\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nWhat you have to do there is you have to cut the quartz crystal at the right angle to get your frequency that you want. And then this device has to be optimized. There\u0026#8217;s a lot of sputtering that goes on. There\u0026#8217;s a lot of machining that goes on on this device. And of course, the quartz guys have got it into an art form today because they\u0026#8217;re shipping like 30, 40 billion units of this every year. But still, it\u0026#8217;s a very mechanically intensive process.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:31.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:32.18\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nlapping and your sheening, etching, et cetera. Versus in silicon, it\u0026#8217;s all done in batches. So what that does at the end device level, is you get a lot more reliability out of silicon.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:43.59\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nYou get a lot more predictability out of silicon.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:45.60\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:47.57\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd and so that\u0026#8217; that\u0026#8217;s how it\u0026#8217;s fundamentally different. What does that translate it into in terms of customer benefits? Our devices usually have a lot more features to customize than words.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:58.97\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nOur devices are orders of magnitude more environmentally resilient, mechanical, electrical, all those compared to ports. Our devices basically deliver higher performance under all of these environmentally stressful conditions.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:15.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nah our devices are in a way more easy and flexible to manufacture. So if customers suddenly have an uptick in demand, it\u0026#8217;s easier for us to meet their demand because it\u0026#8217;s a matter of starting more wafers, expediting them through the fabs, expediting the packaging, things like that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:34.80\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nVersus in the case of ports, you might actually have to install a whole new factory to do this.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:38.64\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nHmm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:40.82\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nWe use the existing semiconductor infrastructure. Our wafers are manufactured at TSMC in Taiwan. or MEMS wafers, the analog wafers at TSMC, the MEMS wafers are actually manufactured at Bosch in Germany. Our packaging is basically standard plastic packaging for the most part that is used by the entire half a trillion dollar semiconductor industry at places like ASC, used by basically everybody in semiconductors, at places like Carson, at places like HANA,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:11.09\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nthings like that. So that\u0026#8217;s what we do that is different than quartz and that\u0026#8217;s how we are transforming the industry.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:18.29\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay then, so it\u0026#8217;s not quite what you\u0026#8217;re saying, but with quartz, although they put it down to a finite cut in the extra crystal, it kind of has to be adapted around the crystal a little bit because it\u0026#8217;s a bit more manual work into integrating in with the crystal itself.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:32.31\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nI understand it clearly.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:32.38\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:33.72\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAll right, this is\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:33.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes. and And that manual work, if you think about it, that manual work results in issues.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:42.49\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\ni\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:43.11\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nReliability is a statistical measure. When we\u0026#8217;ve looked at our reliability, we are talking about a billion hours and TBF, meantime between failure versus the ports guys who are at 20, 30, 40 million hours.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:54.90\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd you may say, man, it\u0026#8217;s millions of hours. I mean, who cares? No electronics lasts that long. Well, the problem is it\u0026#8217;s a statistical value. You have to take every component in the electronics device and and and and basically calculate statistically how re reliable it is. So for example, our devices, over 10,000 units, you\u0026#8217;ll not see a pod fail with ports, you might see four to five pods fail.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:19.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight. That makes sense. Yeah, I didn\u0026#8217;t realize that. That\u0026#8217;s interesting to know. um Building on that then. So ah what have you found are the primary challenges faced in developing precision timing solutions, especially for applications like artificial intelligence, ah internet of things and electrical vehicles?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:38.38\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nso So I think the key is innovation, right? I mean, we have to innovate very, very quickly. You look at the data center industry, and that\u0026#8217;s a couple of hundred billion in size today. And they\u0026#8217;re talking about a 40% CAGR growth rate on on this 200 billion size. And and you dig dig a little little deeper. I mean, the mainstream Ethernet connectivity inside a data center was 400G Ethernet a couple of years ago.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:07.43\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s 800G internet today. It\u0026#8217;s going to be 1.6 terabytes per second internet a couple of years from now. ah So the pace is incredibly fast. Now, to go from 400G to 800G, your timing has to be twice better. To go from 800G to 1.60, your timing has to be twice better. And we\u0026#8217;ve got two years to deliver this. So the rate of innovation has to be very, very quick.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:35.54\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nand and And I think that\u0026#8217;s one of the key challenges that we overcome. A second key challenge is that customers are learning about this industry as they are building and deploying. So the problems are unanticipated. And so how do you respond to problems real time when they are not anticipated right at the beginning? You build a lot of flexibility into the device. So an example, i mean ethernet the frequency for Ethernet is typically 156.25 gigahertz.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:06.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nHowever, because of the way the designs are done, about 10% to 15% of the designs will experience bit error rates at this frequency. And you have to modify the frequency to 156.25391 megahertz.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:22.54\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah Yeah, exactly. I mean, the the classic, and it\u0026#8217;s like seriously, I mean, it\u0026#8217;s like 25 versus 25391, but that\u0026#8217;s what decreases the bit error rates. So what did we do? We built in programmability Android devices.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:37.59\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nYou don\u0026#8217;t have to, you build a whole new MEMS resonator right from the beginning to handle this. What you do is you basically just program the device differently. It\u0026#8217;s like a 10 second job to program instead of 156.25, you deliver 156.25391. We had a customer who called us on Friday evening at five o\u0026#8217;clock saying, guys, we\u0026#8217;re having problems. We\u0026#8217;ve got to shift this product next week. We\u0026#8217;re having problems with this frequency. Can you program us some devices and see if the 156.25391 works?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:07.16\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nFriday evening at six o\u0026#8217;clock, we got them the samples. They were down the road. And and Tuesday, they call back, say, OK, device works. You\u0026#8217;re in production. We\u0026#8217;re going to give you orders for 100,000 units, like in a week. That flexibility, I mean, it applies to a smaller set of customers, but that flexibility is huge. And and not only is it beneficial during prototyping, but it\u0026#8217;s also beneficial during these production runs.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:34.01\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so pretty much all our customers take advantage of the flexibility during prototyping. And then about 10% to 15% of the customers who are in production run into your issues, and they want to have solved problems, and we help them there too. So that\u0026#8217;s another thing that we build into our devices because the problems are unanticipated. So coming back to that, and we and know with the rate of innovation is one big challenge. What flexibility do you build into the device is another big challenge. At the market level, ah we\u0026#8217;ve been around for 20 years.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:04.47\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nWhat has been around for 100 years?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:06.39\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:07.84\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nGetting customers to understand that we offer them benefits, especially when they are risk averse, especially when they don\u0026#8217;t want to try new stuff because they\u0026#8217;re already doing a whole bunch of new stuff on the AI processor and this and that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:21.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s a challenge. And so we have to do a lot of evangelizing, give customers data so that they can actually decide for themselves which solution is better. So on the market side, that\u0026#8217;s a challenge is how do you get out to these customers, all these customers? There\u0026#8217;s 100 AI startups out there in the world. How do we educate all of them? Actually, let me be more specific. There\u0026#8217;s 100 AI processor startups out there in the world. How do we get to them? How do we educate them on the benefits that we offer? How do we show them that by using us,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:56.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou will be able to cut your time to the revenue or or meet your time to revenue versus unanticipated problems that might come up with the other device. These are the problems that we are solving. there We solve them. that\u0026#8217;s That\u0026#8217;s our reason for existence. So we\u0026#8217;ve got a team of people, engineering, business, etc. We we get into it and we go solve it and we\u0026#8217;ve done pretty well. i mean Our revenue last year, like i like I told you, will grow significantly over the year before. ah Even at the financial analyst expectations of 200 million, we were 144 million the year before that\u0026#8217;s that significant growth. And so that\u0026#8217;s what we do. that\u0026#8217;s That\u0026#8217;s how we solve problems. By solving problems, we think it benefits side time, it benefits the world.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:44.16\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely. And word of mouth from existing clients will help build your, will help as part of your marketing as well, wouldn\u0026#8217;t it?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:52.62\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nSorry, you\u0026#8217;re dropping in and out. So can you repeat that question?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:54.47\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. Word of mouth from your existing customers as well.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:58.03\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:58.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s going to make a huge role.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:58.47\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nOh, that plays a huge role. That plays a huge role. and and And we\u0026#8217;ve also found that basically customers, you know, once they use item, generally they don\u0026#8217;t go back to boards because they see all the benefits and they and then the board spreads inside a customer.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:08.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:12.60\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nmean We\u0026#8217;ve got some customers today, large customers today, who we first shipped revenue to them in 2009.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:21.21\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWow, okay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:22.23\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nThey\u0026#8217;ve had like annual design upgrades since 2009 and we are on every one of those designs.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:32.76\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSuperb. Dream, what\u0026#8217;s the dream? Right, you\u0026#8217;ve answered the next few questions, so I\u0026#8217;ll skip over them. The next one, and how how does a side time\u0026#8217;s approach to precision timing contribute to sustainability in industries like automotive industry and data centers?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:49.96\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo great question. and and I don\u0026#8217;t, I mean, I have an answer today which is just beginning to scratch the surface of this.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:57.61\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight. Okay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:59.01\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nThere\u0026#8217;s so much more work to be done out there and there\u0026#8217;s so much more learning that we get and there\u0026#8217;s just work to be done. oh Sustainability, let\u0026#8217;s look at manufacturing.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:10.11\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nAll our devices are RoHS compliant oh and and whatever the industry standards are around elimination of potentially\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:12.64\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:22.02\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\ndangerous materials, we are at the leading edge of that. We absolutely adopt those things as quickly as we can. Our suppliers do for that matter and we drive our suppliers to adopt them as quickly as possible. So there\u0026#8217;s that part of it which to an extent you know just being ahead of the curve is a good thing.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:43.06\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo that\u0026#8217;s one. The other part of it is basically how we help our customers do things differently that helps the environment.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:52.70\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nMm hmm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:53.94\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\num So one is, for example, power reduction.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:56.66\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nMm hmm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:57.84\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nI mean, data centers run, obviously they run, they consume a lot of power. And so how do we get lower power into that system? And again, we\u0026#8217;re just beginning to scratch the surface here.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:08.77\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nWe think we have a long way to go there. there\u0026#8217;s a lot of different benefits because so far everybody\u0026#8217;s just been in the mindset of let\u0026#8217;s just deploy and then we\u0026#8217;ll figure out all these things later. In power consumption, I mean we just introduced a device last week which combines the function of two so two different devices into a single device.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:27.16\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:27.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nObviously it consumes less power because you\u0026#8217;re not consuming the power of two devices, it\u0026#8217;s just a single device so that\u0026#8217;s one way we help. There\u0026#8217;s another thing that we do but kitchen which is that ah In a data center, you have a bunch of different applications, whether it is the processors, the GPUs, the CPUs, whether it is the switches, whether it\u0026#8217;s the NIC cards, whether it\u0026#8217;s the active electrical and optical cables, whatever it is, all of these have to be time synchronized. Meaning, they actually not all of them, the key parts of them have to be time synchronized. So basically, the NIC card has to be time synchronized with the GPU. What does that mean? It means that basically,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:08.09\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nin In time, they should what what what the CPU thinks of time versus what the NIC card thinks of time, there should be a very small error between the two.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:18.21\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:18.46\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s kind of like you go into your kitchen and you look at the microwave, you look at the oven, and you look at your hand, and guaranteed those three times are different. Guaranteed. That\u0026#8217;s not time synchronized.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:29.74\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd in fact, the microwave and the oven are probably using bad timing components, which is why they\u0026#8217;re never on the same time as your as your watch or your phone. So there\u0026#8217;s a protocol ah that has run on these devices and these high performance networks that make sure that the difference between these devices and in a matter of time is of the order of nanoseconds.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:50.86\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nMm hmm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:51.09\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nWhy is that important? Because and a training task, basically you have to break up the training task to go get get it processed by multiple GPUs, and then you have to reassemble it at the end of it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:01.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo it\u0026#8217;s a massive parallel processing effort. How you break it up, how you route it to each GPU, how you assemble it, is very heavily dependent on the time synchronization between all these devices. Today, i mean there was a study done that said that GPUs are idle 50% of the time, up to 50% of the time, because the network is not fast enough, and the network is not synchronized well enough to get data to the GPU. and So to get data optimally to the GPU.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:31.94\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nNow, if we could play a role in increasing the utilization rates of the GPUs, that\u0026#8217;s benefit, and that helps in terms of consuming lower power.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:32.10\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nwow\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:41.61\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nAgain, like I said, a lot more work to be done here, but that\u0026#8217;s a benefit because we can more efficiently, the for for the same training task, you\u0026#8217;re using less GPU of time because you\u0026#8217;re you\u0026#8217;re basically making sure that it\u0026#8217;s up more of the time, it\u0026#8217;s not idle.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:54.93\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWow. Hmm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:58.20\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd you\u0026#8217;re doing that by routing the package to it in a timely manner, and in an efficient manner. Of course, there are other things that play a role, but this is just the timing part of it. So therefore, you\u0026#8217;re getting power efficiency out of it. That\u0026#8217;s one example.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:11.28\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\noh Another example is in the reliability part of it. ah So for example, ah A cloud service provider has publicly stated that they lose for every 24 hours of an AI cluster being down, they lose like $2.4 million dollars of revenue.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:32.93\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nTon of money. so So now, basically, but they have to factor that into their business models, right? So they might end up deploying more AI clusters. So if we could help them with reliability, maybe they need to deploy less AI clusters.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:48.33\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:49.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nMaybe it depends on what their growth rates are and what the CAPEXs are and all that stuff. But that\u0026#8217;s another place where we could potentially help by increasing the reliability of these systems and the uptime so that basically the the resources are not wasted.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:04.25\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nI guess that\u0026#8217;s the best way of putting it. So these are some of the ways in which we help. um But again, like I said, we\u0026#8217;re just beginning to scratch the tip of the iceberg. So I\u0026#8217;m using multiple metaphors here, but we\u0026#8217;re just beginning to start here.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:16.46\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nright absolutely and Especially with the growth of things like cryptocurrencies, and blockchain, that\u0026#8217;s going to be really important too, isn\u0026#8217;t it?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:26.07\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. and Absolutely. And it\u0026#8217;s going to run on all these systems. And so how do we impact that? Like I said, we have to go figure all that out.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:34.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nokay like excellent um Uh, yeah. Can you, can you share us some examples of how side times timing chips are used in everyday devices or systems that consumers might interact with?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:46.90\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nIf any and if is\u0026#8217; a secret, and obviously not.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:47.72\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:49.97\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely. Not a problem. um I won\u0026#8217;t name names, but I\u0026#8217;ll name applications.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:53.81\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\ni Okay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:56.19\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo for example, wearables. I mean, everybody is wearing smart watches or carrying some kind of wearable to do some health monitoring. We are in many of those devices. We are in some of the most accurate of those devices because we offer a timing signal that is very accurate. So that\u0026#8217;s one example.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:16.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\num\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:19.49\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nBase stations and and small cells that I use for distributing cellular signals. We are in those devices. ah We are in industrial farming equipment. ah For example, automated industrial farming equipment that that basically uses a GPS signal to run on its own and do whatever agriculture work it needs to do. We are in those.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:51.57\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nWe are in cars. i We actually are in many, many electric vehicles. In multiple instances of our devices, in electrical vehicles, things like, I mean, the cameras, the surround view cameras, the ADAS cameras, the computers that sit in there, the the ethernet connectivity that\u0026#8217;s in there, we are in those kind of applications.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:21.41\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\noh We are in sensors. So you have some sensors that are sitting. ah one the One of the most interesting ones, not not very high volume, but one of the most interesting ones was we were in a sensor that\u0026#8217;s sitting at the bottom of the Mariana Trench to detect earthquakes.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:33.53\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay. Nice.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:40.80\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nso So, I mean, there\u0026#8217;s an early earthquake detection system out there and in Japan. ah we have been I think we still are in some of the sensors that sit on the ocean floor.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:53.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nNow, they don\u0026#8217;t replace those very often, so there\u0026#8217;s not much volume there, of course, but it\u0026#8217;s a really interesting application.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:59.56\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:00.27\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nwell We are in a bunch of industrial sensors. We are in motor controls, servo motors that are used everywhere. We are in in motor control of that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:13.66\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nah On the networking side, I talked about base stations and small cells, routers, switches. Pretty much every application in an AI data center has multiple instances of sitem devices in there. I mean, we\u0026#8217;ve we\u0026#8217;ve we\u0026#8217;ve talked about, or or we\u0026#8217;ve done the math, weve we we have several hundred dollars of content into an AI data center rack. Things like that. so so i mean the gamut of applications, I mean, in aerospace defense, GPS equipment, communications equipment, I mean, vehicle mounted equipment, things like that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:45.25\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:53.33\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nI mean, literally, I mean, we we have a list of about 300 applications that we are in, and that list keeps going.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:02.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo from the bottom of the sea to outer space, basically everywhere in between.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:06.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nEverywhere. everywhere. but That\u0026#8217;s a nice way of putting it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:08.16\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nbut\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:09.97\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nIf you don\u0026#8217;t mind, I\u0026#8217;m going to use that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:11.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nI\u0026#8217;ll check invoice in the post. I ah speak and kind of kind of brings it on to this.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:15.31\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nThere you go.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:19.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYou kind of answered this as well, but I\u0026#8217;ll ask anyway. How does side time ensure the scalability and adaptability of its solutions across different high growth markets, such as networking infrastructure and personal mobility?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:31.83\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nso\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:35.72\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nAs the industry moves faster and faster,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:41.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nforecast predictability is usually compromised. I mean, people just want stuff that they didn\u0026#8217;t think they needed it and they just want it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:46.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSarah. Sarah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:52.55\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so we routinely get this. I mean, we routinely have customers coming in saying, okay, I had a forecast for this, but I need this now. Can you ship it? And so that\u0026#8217;s where this whole semiconductor infrastructure helps us.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:06.61\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nI\u0026#8217;ll give you a very vivid example. When we started in 2020, when we, when we started the year 2021, our forecast was X. By the, when we finished 2021, I think our forecast went up, our actual revenue went up to one point 3, 1.4, 1.5X, something like that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:39.03\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo within the year, we had to ship 30, 40, 50%. I forget the exact number more than what we had started the year out with.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:49.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWow.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:52.27\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd that was obviously a time when there was a lot of demand for semiconductors. It was just beginning to ramp up and all that. And and it was multiple things playing out. um How do we do this? We do this because we use the fabulous semiconductor infrastructure. So we use the same infrastructure that\u0026#8217;s already in place for a half a trillion dollar semiconductor industry. And so for us, it\u0026#8217;s a matter of starting more wafers. For us, it\u0026#8217;s a matter of of and and of course expediting them and then working with our partners to cut the cycle times.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:25.34\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s what we do. And that\u0026#8217;s fundamentally different than the quartz industry, where there are capital factories, which are basically machining these quartz devices and then packaging them. And so we\u0026#8217;ve been able to meet these upsides, we believe, a lot better than our competitors have been able to. Because of the nature of the fabulous infrastructure,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:52.11\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nwhere we need more wafers. We start more wafers at TSMC or Bosch. Yes, there\u0026#8217;s a cycle time. Of course, there\u0026#8217;s always a cycle time. ah We need more packages packages. We just basically go and assemble more at our packaging houses. And that flexibility of the fabulous infrastructure has allowed us to scale up as needed. And when 2023 was a down year, down as needed.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:20.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay, so I\u0026#8217;m just writing notes in trying to catch up. Excellent. And that brings us nicely to the last question then. So what decide time\u0026#8217;s goals for 2025 and beyond in terms of predictive market share, innovation and impact across industries?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:36.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nIf you\u0026#8217;re able to answer, like give any last.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:37.62\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nSure, so cannot talk numbers obviously because we are a public company. ah But see, we want to solve difficult timing problems for the customers. And sometimes even they don\u0026#8217;t know what they are.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:52.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nso So when they find out how do we respond to it quickly, it\u0026#8217;s all part of our our or gene pool, so to speak. I mean, it\u0026#8217;s all part of our DNA. ah but But how do we go about solving that? And and so it starts with innovation. We\u0026#8217;ve got to innovate. and And in our case, not only is it What everybody knows is engineering innovation. How do you deliver better products faster and all that stuff? But there\u0026#8217;s also business innovation. how do you How do you talk to customers about preempting some of the problems that they might have, or at least educating them on that so that they are ready for it? How do you go to market? And then, of course, for all of this to work inside the company, we have to have cultural innovation.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:42.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nWe basically got to figure out a way to serve the customer, the the the the end goal of solving difficult problems for customers. and And in a team that is going to grow, how do you make sure that new members are are part of the field part of the team very, very quickly? So this cultural innovation. So we look at we look at innovation at the heart of the company, as being the heart of the company.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:09.41\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nand multiple facets to it, the engineering, the business, and the cultural benefit. And that\u0026#8217;s, I think, going to help. that That plays a very key role in our future growth trajectory. So obviously, over time, we\u0026#8217;ll introduce new products. We\u0026#8217;ll introduce new applications where we may have made a difference, and we\u0026#8217;ll talk about that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:32.60\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nah Things like that. I mean, that\u0026#8217;s basically what we are trying to do. Ultimately, it\u0026#8217;s all in the service of the customer in terms of how do we solve their problems.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:41.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nFantastic. we Best of luck to you.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:43.61\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nhere\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:43.55\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nGot your hands full, what are some things? Like I said, that\u0026#8217;s all of our questions.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:47.01\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nNow, I think we\u0026#8217;ve touched on most things.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:47.13\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nis there Is there anything else you\u0026#8217;d like to add that you think is important that we haven\u0026#8217;t touched on?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:54.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nOne thing, I mean, engineers always like more information. Go to a website. Lots of information out there. We\u0026#8217;ve tried to make our website as informative as possible, so go there. um If you want to buy devices or prototype samples, things like that, they\u0026#8217;re available through our e-commerce platform on the website. So we can do that. Some of the newer parts are not there yet, but we\u0026#8217;ve got a lot of parts in production which are already there. ah Models, application notes, other kinds of collateral, it\u0026#8217;s all there. So go visit the website, go check it out. and\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:28.62\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nKeep site time in mind for any kind of timing requirements that you have.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:33.65\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nExcellent. We\u0026#8217;ll share any links in our copy, basically. It goes live. But other than that, ah thank you for your time, Piersch. That was very, very interesting.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:43.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nPiyush Sevalia\u003cbr /\u003e\nThank you. Thank you for having me on.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:45.32\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOur pleasure.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eThat concludes this episode of Lexicon.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eThank you all for tuning in and being our guest today.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eFollow our social media channels for the latest science and technology news. Also, don’t forget to subscribe to IE+ for premium insights and exclusive content!\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eGoodbye for now.\u003c/p\u003e\n","episode_number":"75","sponsor_image":null,"sponsor_name":null,"sponsor_url":null,"hosts":[{"name":"Christopher McFadden","title":"Host","biography":"\u003cp\u003eChristopher graduated from Cardiff University in 2004 with a Masters Degree in Geology. Since then, he has worked exclusively within the Built Environment, Occupational Health and Safety and Environmental Consultancy industries. He is a qualified and accredited Energy Consultant, Green Deal Assessor and Practitioner member of IEMA. Chris’s main interests range from Science and Engineering, Military and Ancient History to Politics and Philosophy.\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/avatars/XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","title":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","name":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","description":"N/A","alt_text":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","reference":null}}],"speakers":[{"name":"Piyush B. Sevalia","title":"Executive Vice President of Marketing at SiTime","biography":"\u003cp\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://www.sitime.com/company/leadership/piyush-sevalia?srsltid=AfmBOopyyevsRnqLFBohFeSYRXMFhUlAaVEzigu2oPhL5IstUKVYgEi9\"\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003ePiyush B. Sevalia\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/a\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003e has served as our Executive Vice President of Marketing since April 2012. Mr. Sevalia previously served as our Vice President of Marketing from March 2008 to April 2012. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eBefore joining SiTime, Mr. Sevalia held various marketing positions at Ikanos Communications, a semiconductor and software development company, including vice president of access infrastructure products from October 2006 to March 2008, marketing head of access products from April 2006 to September 2006, and director of product marketing from September 2000 to March 2006. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eFrom July 1991 to September 2000, Mr. Sevalia held various positions at Cypress Semiconductor, a semiconductor company, including senior marketing manager, strategic marketing manager, senior / staff applications engineer, and applications engineer. Mr. Sevalia holds a bachelor’s degree in electrical engineering from the University of Mumbai, a master’s degree in electrical engineering from the University of Michigan, and a master’s degree in business administration from the University of California, Berkeley.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/piyush.png","title":"piyush.png","name":"piyush.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"piyush.png","reference":null}}],"introductions":"\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eIn this episode, we sit down with \u003ca href=\"https://www.sitime.com/company/leadership/piyush-sevalia?srsltid=AfmBOopyyevsRnqLFBohFeSYRXMFhUlAaVEzigu2oPhL5IstUKVYgEi9\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003ePiyush Sevalia\u003c/a\u003e, Executive Vice President of Marketing at \u003ca href=\"https://www.sitime.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eSiTime\u003c/a\u003e, to explore how their cutting-edge MEMS-based precision timing technology is revolutionizing modern electronics. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003ePiyush shares how SiTime solves the toughest challenges in the $10B timing industry, from AI data centers to electric vehicles and wearables.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eAlso, \u003c/span\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003edon’t forget to subscribe to \u003c/span\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://interestingengineering.com/subscribe\"\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eIE+\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/a\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003e for premium insights and exclusive content!\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n","host_introductions":null,"speakers_introductions":null,"player_code":"https://interestingengineering.com/podcast/lexicon/timing-is-everything-how-sitime-drives-innovation-in-modern-electronics","publish_date":"2025-02-06T13:19:41+00:00","publish_date_detail":"Feb 6, 2025 08:19 AM EST","status":1,"page_title":"Timing is everything: how SiTime drives innovation in modern electronics","keywords":"SiTime","description":"","seo_title":"Timing is everything: how SiTime drives innovation in modern electronics - Interesting Engineering","og_title":"Timing is everything: how SiTime drives innovation in modern electronics - Interesting Engineering","og_image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-25.png","title":"1-25.png","name":"1-25.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"1-25.png","reference":null},"og_url":null,"og_type":null,"main_image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-25.png","title":"1-25.png","name":"1-25.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"1-25.png","reference":null}},{"title":"Bridging the energy gap: AI and the future of data centers","abstract":"Discover how AI's energy demands drive a data center boom, reshaping grids and sparking debates on sustainability and innovation.","slug":"bridging-the-energy-gap-ai-and-the-future-of-data-centers","transcript":"\u003cp\u003eWelcome to today’s episode of Lexicon! I’m Christopher McFadden, a contributing writer for Interesting Engineering.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eToday, we’re joined by Benjamin Lee, a professor at Penn Engineering and an expert in data center architecture, to explore the intersection of AI, energy, and sustainability.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eFrom natural gas to next-gen data centers, Benjamin shares insights into the challenges of powering AI’s growth and how innovation in energy infrastructure could shape the future of technology.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eJoin us as we dive into the race to balance rapid tech development with environmental goals, and discover how the U.S. could lead the way in AI and energy efficiency.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eBefore getting into today’s episode, here’s something to elevate your 2025.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eLevel up your knowledge with IE+! Subscribe today to access exclusive premium articles enriched with expert insights and enjoy members-only technical newsletters designed to keep you ahead in technology and science.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:00.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nBen, thanks for joining us. How are you today?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:03.58\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nDoing great. Thanks. How are you?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:05.10\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nVery well, thank you. Thanks for joining us. For our audience\u0026#8217;s benefit, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, please?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:12.70\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nah Right. So I am a professor of electrical and systems engineering and of computing information science at the University of Pennsylvania. ah By training, I\u0026#8217;m a computer architect, which is to say that I think a lot about how to design computer hardware, microprocessors, memory systems, and so on. And over the past few years, we\u0026#8217;ve been thinking a lot about deploying all this hardware in the data in the data center context, large high performance systems, and how to make those systems more energy efficient and environmentally sustainable.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:43.40\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nFantastic. Right, onto our first question then. So how how do you see the US balancing the need for rapid data center development with long-term sustainability goals? Excuse me.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:55.92\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight, yes. So I think there is a real, very, very real need for rapid data center development. We are seeing unprecedented demand for computation driven, as you probably know, by the demand for generative AI, ah both on the research side, but also in the deployment and the business side.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:12.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd as as we know, data as we are becoming increasingly aware, data centers require quite a bit of power and energy and where this power comes from, where this electricity comes from will affect our ability to but pursue long-term sustainability goals. So there is attention here. ah In some of our research and some of our own data analysis, we found that data-centered capacity is growing at 20%, 25% per year. That was before generative AI, so those numbers are even bigger today. um And at the same time, when we look at renewable energy installations in the in the United States, those installations are only growing at about 7% per year. Now, those numbers might shift a little bit, but that highlights like highlights the magnitude of the difference\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:54.68\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nbetween growth in data center demand and growth in renewable energy supply. ah So there will be a sustainability impact. Trying to get more renewable energy on the grid is is part of the solution, but I think it will be increasingly hard to hit.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:09.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nFor example, the net zero targets that many big technology companies are pursuing. Historically, most of these big technology companies pursue net zero by installing more and more renewable energy and then getting credits for those installations.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:21.60\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:22.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s hard to keep up.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:24.20\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nIs there any slack at the moment, and sort of between the demand for energy and the supply? Is there kind of a, how do I say this, a grace period before it kind of hits the crunch, you know?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:37.87\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nWell, I think increasingly we are beginning to see that crunch happening now. I think the last two or three years we\u0026#8217;ve seen rapid but deployment of data centers and and the grids have been willing to hook them up and supply them power.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:49.53\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:50.68\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nI think increasingly we are seeing regulatory pushback, pushback from local communities.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:53.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:56.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo I think people are becoming increasingly aware of the challenges here and there is increasingly friction in that and that process.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:04.68\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAll right. So if you could put an estimation like how many we\u0026#8217;re talking in months or years before it becomes a big problem with the growth rate of the data centers and the actual supply of energy.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:18.32\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWill they come, how long will that be when there\u0026#8217;s, it\u0026#8217;s you know, the power draw or requirements outpaces the energy supply. Is there any way to estimate that?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:29.65\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nthat that That\u0026#8217;s a good question. um i\u0026#8217;m I\u0026#8217;m not quite sure what what the timescales are. I do know that it\u0026#8217;s generally much faster to deploy a data center that draws 100 megawatts than to deploy the corresponding energy and also hook it up. I think the the the the delays are um somewhat in the deployment of new energy installations, but also in the permitting and the construction of the transmission lines to connect all the energy to the grid.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:56.53\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo, I think that the permitting and the regulatory landscape or energy looks very different than that for compute and that sort of explains the lag.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:06.47\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\ngot that interesting is It\u0026#8217;s kind of an artificial almost restriction then if it\u0026#8217;s permitting and stuff things that could theoretically be removed to speed up the process.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:07.96\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:18.66\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAm I understanding correctly?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:19.72\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nbut but Potentially, yes. I mean, I think um getting access to right of way so they can solve transmission lines could be expedited and and that could try to go more quickly. I think that there are other things that are sort of slower to figure out. Historically, I think one of the reasons why things have been slow is that when you put a massive load onto a grid, they want to assess risks to grid stability. And that requires a lot of analysis, a lot of electrical engineering to figure out the flow of electricity through the grid. um And that has historically been a slow process. And that process is not keeping pace with the rate at which data centers want to build out.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:02.28\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nGotcha. Kind of ironically, AI could be helped could be used to help speed up that process, right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:08.23\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah Absolutely.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:09.03\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nthat\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:09.19\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely. I think that that\u0026#8217;d be a great idea.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:11.59\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. Ironically, it\u0026#8217;s not the right word, but say yeah. Anyway, adam so what are the benefits of using federal land for data centers compared to private or state-owned land?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:14.66\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:22.36\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nI\u0026#8217;m sure the difference is there. Are there unique challenges associated with this approach?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:29.72\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight. So I think when we talk about state owned land or state as in the US government owned land, I think um there is there is an interesting opportunity. Certainly the US government owns quite a bit of land where they do a lot of energy intensive work and high performance computing work. like The Department of Energy runs large national labor laboratories with big supercomputers. um So it\u0026#8217;s a matter of opening up some of that some of that capacity, some of those resources to private compute in some sense potentially to support AI research and development.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:05.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo I think that\u0026#8217;s a great idea. i think I think that could help with the permitting issues that we\u0026#8217;ve just mentioned, the extent to which we can get new and and energy installations deployed and also hooked up to these big data centers.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:17.10\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo I think from a regulatory perspective, it\u0026#8217;s sort of a bridging measure or a short gap as we figure out how to get more ah energy ah connected to the grid in other places.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:27.46\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWhat was that?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:27.61\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nI think one of the um One of the other side, you mentioned unique challenges associated with relying on federal land. um The discussion is focused primarily on the energy side, permitting infrastructure and so on.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:41.72\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nah There is a secondary consideration or maybe another consideration for data centers, which is ah data flow or data network bandwidth. right So the question is, to what extent do these federal lands also have network connectivity so they can move this massive amount of data into the data center for compute, but also back out again?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:02.50\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s why some places like Northern Virginia are super popular for data centers. That\u0026#8217;s because they have got got really great network connectivity, really high data rates into and out of data centers in that location. So we\u0026#8217;ve got to think both about the energy, but also the data movement.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:17.28\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat makes sense. i I\u0026#8217;m not sure about the US, s but in UK there\u0026#8217;s some lots of areas have kind of protected and protected lands for whatever reason, ah ecosystems or historical reasons. and is that but I guess that\u0026#8217;s less of a problem in the USA. It\u0026#8217;s got to be so much bigger land surface. so with a potential use.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:37.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo maybe maybe i\u0026#8217;m maybe I\u0026#8217;m being a little bit generous or being a little bit optimistic. I\u0026#8217;m assuming that they\u0026#8217;re not going to be using natural or protected lands. because but For data center construction, I was envisioning more of the Department of Energy-run spaces where they have big national labs, to Department of Defense spaces.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:54.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:56.93\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo hopefully that will not be the case where there will be a broader environmental impact.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:00.56\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, so it\u0026#8217;s already developed well, already used land, isn\u0026#8217;t it, for whatever reason. I think we call them, ah we call it grey spaces, I think.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:09.09\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nMm hmm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:09.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOld industrial sites and things like that would be ideal candidates, wouldn\u0026#8217;t they, for federal or state owned land.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:13.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\ni Right, Right.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:14.49\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, fair enough. um So you mentioned about renewable energy. and What about the use of, say, natural gas, which is kind of seen as a relatively relatively clean energy source? How does that ah compare with things like coal and and renewables in the context of powering next generation data centers?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:34.44\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight, yeah. So give the gap between the growth in data center capacity and the growth in renewable energy installations, the 20%, 7% number I mentioned earlier. that\u0026#8217;s a we We need other energy sources, and natural gas is a very attractive option, especially in the United States, which is relatively abundant in natural gas. um Certainly, it\u0026#8217;s cleaner than oil and coal. I think that When you think about natural gas, it\u0026#8217;s important to think about the methane that is in the natural gas. And when you burn off when you burn the natural gas for energy, that methane gets translated into carbon dioxide, which which contributes to global warming. But my understanding is that the CO2 emitted by burning natural gas is smaller than the CO2 emitted by burning coal or or oil.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:25.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\num so So there is an advantage with with respect to natural gas. The tricky part here is, of course, the methane that isn\u0026#8217;t burned but it ends up being leaked i during the extraction or during the ah transportation process, right? Because methane has a much higher global warming potential than carbon dioxide.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:45.18\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nand so So I think there is potential here for natural gas to be a bridging energy source, but we\u0026#8217;ve got to be really careful about the extraction and the transportation and how we actually do a holistic view of the accounting of these numbers.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:59.55\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nfair enough How would nuclear factor in, sort firm especially the rise of poor small nuclear reactors, modular reactors?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:07.03\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nand ex Right. So, so nuclear is a really interesting option too. I think it\u0026#8217;s attractive from the perspective that of being carbon free. Right. And I think um in our in our own research, we\u0026#8217;ve thought a lot about powering data centers.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:20.51\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nwith renewable energy, supporting them with lithium ion batteries. But with those technologies, that\u0026#8217;s not enough. It\u0026#8217;s going to be super expensive to build enough renewable capacity, large enough batteries. So those solutions alone are not enough. So that has made me a little bit more receptive to these sort of medium or long term solutions like nuclear. um i I\u0026#8217;ve got to say, though, that in the United States,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:45.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nThe industry has a fairly poor track record of building nuclear on time and on budget. So we\u0026#8217;ve got to figure out how to do that if that\u0026#8217;s going to be part of the solution.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:56.46\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s not going to be a near-term neartown fix.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:58.03\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. um So what policy changes could accelerate the deployment of data centers and the necessary energy infrastructure? You kind of touched on this on this a bit. but\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:11.34\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight, right. So I think the the regulatory aspects are um are important to consider. I think we we mentioned a little bit about the permitting. So I think first, permitting for energy infrastructure will help a lot in terms of connecting any new energy generation, new energy resources to two data centers.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:29.66\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\num Second, we want to think a little bit about regulations about who pays for that energy infrastructure. Right now, there\u0026#8217;s a lot of concern about local ratepayers being forced to subsidize data center energy. The idea being that if a data and if a data center shows up,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:48.43\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nand the utility provider needs to install new transmission lines or other infrastructure, those costs are passed on to local consumers who have nothing to do with the data center that just was just added to the grid. So I think um formalizing or standardizing how those costs are attributed and who pays for what will sort of ease the approval process and sort of reduce the the friction between data center operators and and the local communities.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e12:18.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\num So I think um on on the two sides, permitting and energy markets, there needs to be a little bit more sophisticated thinking about how we can how we can make things easier.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e12:28.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay that makes sense but then from the local community\u0026#8217;s point of view it could increase local employment couldn\u0026#8217;t it so there\u0026#8217;s benefits to it to them directly in that way if they\u0026#8217;re not using the data center itself and obviously business is of all benefit.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e12:41.31\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nI don\u0026#8217;t you have business rates in the US I guess it depends on the states rather than private individuals something some model with the business rate to increase or something to to cover the cost could potentially help I don\u0026#8217;t know\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e12:54.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s right. That\u0026#8217;s right. Yeah. I think thinking a lot about about the rates, the the tariffs that people are paying for electricity makes a lot of sense.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:00.18\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:02.07\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nMakes a lot of sense.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:03.32\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOK, great. um On the subject of local communities, ah often they will oppose things like data centres due to a perceived health and safety or financial concerns. What strategies could be employed to address these issues and gain community support?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:20.64\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nI think the financial concerns are real for some of the mentions reasons we\u0026#8217;ve just mentioned, right? The notion of new infrastructure being built out and then those costs being passed on to to local ratepayers. I think that\u0026#8217;s that\u0026#8217;s that\u0026#8217;s a very real concern. um We see people in Virginia playing paying much higher rates for electricity as data centers move into that community.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:42.32\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\num The health concerns are, that\u0026#8217;s an interesting one. I don\u0026#8217;t have enough data to say one way or the other. I know that there\u0026#8217;s quite a bit of research here. um I mean, articles I\u0026#8217;ve read have focused on, for example, local air pollution because data centers require diesel generators to to to run in case of a power emergency or something. And certainly those diesel generators can contribute to air and noise pollution.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:11.27\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\num But because they are backups, it\u0026#8217;s not clear how often they are run, right? Because they they should be it should be very rare events that actually trigger the activation of those ah there was diesel generators. Some of the literature I\u0026#8217;ve seen suggests that because a company like Google or Microsoft might come in and and apply for a permit for some level of air pollution, assuming that that diesel generator is going to be running,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:39.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nas folks might be thinking that level of air pollution is definitely going into the air. I think it\u0026#8217;s just talking about what might go into the air and getting a permit for so that level of\u0026#8230;\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:50.80\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo getting more detailed data sets on on this question will be important. I think there\u0026#8217;s certainly a possibility of health concerns, so but I haven\u0026#8217;t seen data that definitively points to to the nature or the magnitude of it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:05.39\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat was fair enough. And if they are concerned, and just some more kind of awareness, isn\u0026#8217;t it really? Educating them exactly what a data center is,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:16.51\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWhat it does basically would alleviate that, wouldn\u0026#8217;t it?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:18.33\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nthat That\u0026#8217;s right. That\u0026#8217;s right.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:21.29\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, fair enough.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:21.52\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:22.52\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\num Okay, so with the next generation dentist set data centers requiring up to like one gigawatt of power, how do you envisage system architects ah innovating to efficiently manage this immense energy demand?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:36.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nBlah, blah, blah, mouthful.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:37.16\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight, right. Yes. So i I mean, as you mentioned, as we mentioned at the beginning of this, i am I\u0026#8217;m a computer architect. I think a lot about system design. So this is right up my wheelhouse. and i think I think there are two things here, the hardware and the software. On the hardware side, there are lots of ah headwinds that we are encountering that will make it harder and harder for us to get more energy efficient hardware. Moore\u0026#8217;s law used to say that transistors would get smaller and also get more energy efficient as they shrink. That\u0026#8217;s no longer happening to the same degree. um So we can\u0026#8217;t simply wait for those transistors to get smaller and draw less power.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:14.03\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\num GPU architects like Nvidia have already done a huge number of optimizations to improve energy efficiency, and there\u0026#8217;s a little bit more left to be done, but maybe they\u0026#8217;ve already gotten 100x improvement in energy efficiency. There might be 10x remaining based on the various hardware optimizations that they\u0026#8217;ve been thinking about.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:34.18\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nah So on the hardware side, I think we are certainly working very very intently on improving the and energy efficiency of the compute. But I think most of the promising solutions are on the software side.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:47.32\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo can you compute the same answer for generative AI model with fewer calculations?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:47.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nokay\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:54.94\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nMhm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:55.21\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nright um And if you think about today\u0026#8217;s generative AI, it\u0026#8217;s trained to be massively ah general right that they they can answer They can provide a good answer for almost any question you pose to it. And that generality comes at a massive cost. A model is huge, a trillion parameters or more, and it costs a huge amount of energy to train the model, but then also to run the model in response to a query or a prompt. You can imagine\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:29.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\ngetting a good enough answer or a comparably good answer if you were to specialize the model and if you knew that the model was targeting, for example, the medical domain or the finance domain or something.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:40.94\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nThe model could get smaller. It could be particularly good at answering these types of questions. And it would consume a lot less energy in response to a medical query or a finance query. So I think specialization of the software could really improve energy efficiency, get you similar experiences with far fewer calculations. And I think that\u0026#8217;s really the path to go. I think the last point I\u0026#8217;ll make here is that ah Why haven\u0026#8217;t we done this already? Well, I think the difficulty is we don\u0026#8217;t know what we want to specialize. We haven\u0026#8217;t found those killer applications, so to speak, the ones that will draw on massive adoption and from the broader user base. Once we found that in a previous generation, that was the search engine right or something like that. And once we knew that the search engine was incredibly important, a vast community of computer scientists and computer data engineers improved the efficiency of it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:35.06\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nWe\u0026#8217;re not there yet with generative AI, but once we find that killer application, I think those optimizations will come.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:42.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWell, with them i could say OpenAI chat GPT, I think you can can train ah a version of it carnie for your own purposes. Say you\u0026#8217;re a business, you can have it trained as a chatbot, basically, for what you do.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:54.33\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nI don\u0026#8217;t know if OpenAI i keep are keeping data on that, but that would be a useful metric, wouldn\u0026#8217;t it, to for this kind of thing, for specialising, for focusing, rather, pardon me, on specialising generative AI, wouldn\u0026#8217;t it?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:07.60\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat kind of data, if they have it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:08.96\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely. I mean, getting a sense of well how people are using this massively general model would provide those pathways for specialization and efficiency.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:13.55\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:18.49\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo I think it and the the data is there, and I think it\u0026#8217;s just a matter of seeing what sticks and where the community wants to go, where users want to go.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:26.50\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat was fair enough. I think last week I was speaking with Fission to Computer, I think that\u0026#8217;s what they\u0026#8217;re called. I don\u0026#8217;t know if you\u0026#8217;ve heard of them. They\u0026#8217;re designing, they could basically redesigned the chip to be more general than specialized, but it\u0026#8217;s is ah creating very energy efficient chips. So I\u0026#8217;m wondering if that\u0026#8217;s also a potential, not just the software specialization, but also sort of next-gen. I hate to use that term, but yeah, computer chips basically would also help with obviously data centers, power consumption, whatnot.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:01.23\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely. i think and so So when we think about specializing computer chips, there are really two ways to do it. One is um trying to provide more memory or more specialized movement of ah data from the memory. I think that will certainly allow us to reduce the costs of data movement, which is historically known to be energy intensive. um The other approach, which I think um would be great, is if you found particular instructions or for particular calculations that happen again and again, can you customize hardware for that sequence of instructions and allow you to do a whole bunch of work with just one invocation of that super complicated instruction. That would also be energy efficient because you ah you\u0026#8217;ve only invoked that instruction once, but you\u0026#8217;re getting a huge amount of work.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:49.28\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\ndone.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:49.29\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:49.92\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo I think I think both of those strategies are great. And that\u0026#8217;s what we\u0026#8217;ve seen with GPUs. I think we\u0026#8217;ve seen certainly calculating, ah performing computation on vectors and matrices are far more efficient than computing on a single value one at a time.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:06.60\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight. So that\u0026#8217;s what we\u0026#8217;ve seen for GPUs. And there remain opportunities to do more of that for for chips. so\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:13.57\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nFantastic. Yeah, so kind of crystallizing part of the algorithm really is. Yeah, fixing it. It\u0026#8217;s reused, like you say, you\u0026#8217;re used all the time. Yeah, that makes complete sense.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:21.93\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nExactly. Exactly.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:22.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, actually, brilliant. All right. um So you mentioned the potential for technology companies to operate energy assets directly. How could this shift impact the broader energy market and traditional utility companies?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:36.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight. So when we think about how data centers consume electricity today, they\u0026#8217;re they\u0026#8217;re essentially retail consumers of electricity. They They negotiate with the utility companies, they set up a power purchase agreement, and they pay to pay a particular rate or a particular price for for all that electricity. And in return for the pay paying that rate, they are protected or insulated from infrastructure risks and financial risks on the grid. So the grid operators might have new energy sources coming online or bidding for supplying energy on and pushing energy into the grid. um Grid infrastructure, grid operators might have to install utility-scale batteries to make sure that the um the voltages remain stable throughout the grid.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:24.67\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo all of those costs and risks are managed by the operators of the grid and they and data centers are shielded from all of that complexity and all of that risk. um The problem is that um that means that data centers are probably paying a little bit more for their electricity and they\u0026#8217;re also getting stability, for that stability they\u0026#8217;re getting a higher rate.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:48.72\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nNow, if you look at the other side of the world, data center operators, as they build and operate more of their own energy energy infrastructure, whether it be batteries or wind farms or solar farms or even nuclear plants, they have a much larger space of actions and decisions that they can make. Do I, given the energy that I have, do I compute with it?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:11.59\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nDo I charge up my battery? Do I take energy in my battery and sell it back to the grid? Do I sell energy from a nuclear plant and put it back onto the grid? And that larger action space will increase the financial risks and also maybe system stability risks for the data center operator. But um it may give it more flexibility or more room to act as an energy trader and and and optimize this much more holistic system ah more aggressively.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:42.09\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nah more more more efficiently. um And once we go into once we go into that ah side of the world then data centers are essentially wholesale participants in the energy market.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:54.01\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nthey are just like ah any other nuclear power plant who might i try to sell energy to the grid or manage the risks of ah voltage emergencies on the grid.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:04.77\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo they\u0026#8217;re they\u0026#8217;re going to be taking much on much greater risk because they\u0026#8217;re going to be um engaging as an equal participant with many of these other players in the energy market, but they may have more control over their system.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:17.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat makes sense.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:17.70\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd I think that\u0026#8217;s a really interesting scenario to think of that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:20.56\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, I think maybe a year, a couple of years ago, Microsoft put a data center that they model under the sea, I think. Is that right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:28.29\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah Yes.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:28.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nFor the cooling and whatnot. So yeah, thinking of the same terms, you could have tidal energy linked to it. Can you power it? And they could sell any excess back to the grid or tidal ships.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:41.72\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThey called it tidal energy ships. Have you got an interesting yeah business model? Yeah, okay. Fascinating.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:48.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s right.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:50.61\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo yes, you yeah you mentioned that easing regulations could help the US maintain a competitive edge in things like AI. So how crucial is this advantage and what are the risks if the US doesn\u0026#8217;t act quickly?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:04.86\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nWell, I think um sustainability is certainly an important dimension, but at the same time, if you\u0026#8217;re a computer scientist developing the next generation of AI models, you don\u0026#8217;t want to be put in a position where you\u0026#8217;re developing a model and you\u0026#8217;re wondering whether or not you could have gotten a better model or gone to the next level of capability if you\u0026#8217;re just doing another 50 megawatts of the problem.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:28.96\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nright So I think there is a question about to what extent um is energy the critical path or the constraint on getting to the next that level of models for for AI. And by next level, I really mean maybe multimodal models, right handling both the language, but also audio, video, et cetera, larger data sets, and so more more sophisticated queries. So I think um in order to maintain leadership, it\u0026#8217;s important to provide that energy supply so that we are not constrained by but but for for the bleeding edge in terms of next generation models. That being said, I don\u0026#8217;t think everyone, I don\u0026#8217;t think every company needs to be\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:13.95\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nbuilding 100 megawatt data centers to train these next generation models. I think increasingly there will be a question about how many of these companies will need to be training their own models and doing these very large heroic 100,000 GPU runs of a next generation model because the costs are prohibitive and there\u0026#8217;s very little additional benefit once those first few models are have been trained and that capability has been demonstrated.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:41.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo I think i think maintaining you the US competitive advantage means supporting next generation models and the infrastructure for it. I think that the next thing I\u0026#8217;ll say or the last thing I\u0026#8217;ll say here is that the competitive edge in AI also requires finding those really advanced use cases of existing models. There\u0026#8217;s still a huge amount of uncertainty about what these models are good for and how will they fundamentally change the way we live and work.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:08.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nchatbots are fun to play with. I don\u0026#8217;t think they\u0026#8217;ve risen to that level quite yet. So I think developing the ecosystem where many different entities, many different companies can play and try different things will be will be incredibly important. And hopefully they\u0026#8217;re not going to be constrained.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:27.44\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nby hardware infrastructure or energy. So during the excitement mean about generative AI, there was some talk about some startups really having difficulty getting access to some number of GPUs to develop their ideas. I think we want to make sure that there is enough infrastructure that is distributed that many people can try different ideas and and and explore efficiently.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:51.39\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay. Well, so you do you believe then the future is going to be more, what\u0026#8217;s the word, not niche, kind of smaller ah scope, AIs, but ah new businesses, I mean, coming up rather than, yeah, general, let\u0026#8217;s just brute force attack, AI, rather more specialized yeah niche, new cases for it, basically, will be the future of your system, probably.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:15.95\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight, and I think it makes sense for for for everyone involved because because the costs are just so prohibitive. not it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s If you imagine doing a startup that can compete with an entity like OpenAI i backed by Microsoft\u0026#8217;s infrastructure so and you\u0026#8217;re starting from scratch, that\u0026#8217;s going to be very difficult that\u0026#8217;s a very difficult proposition.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:30.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:35.97\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nwhere you can add value. But I think if you can find a really interesting use case for OpenAI\u0026#8217;s models and access those models through some sort of programming interface that Microsoft and OpenAI provide, that is a way that\u0026#8217;s where you can in a cost effective way deliver additional value.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:54.72\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo I think that that would be really exciting to see more of.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:56.48\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting. So it could be a bit like the evolution of operations, computer operating systems, or you couldn\u0026#8217;t most ah basically more or less based on the same thing, but specialized in different ways.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:07.96\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\naren\u0026#8217;t they So you\u0026#8217;d have the foundation and yeah, okay, not fair enough.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:09.01\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes, yes.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:13.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\num Right, last question. How does the US\u0026#8217;s approach to data center development and energy infrastructure compared to other leading countries like China or the EU, and what lessons can be learned, if any?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:28.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nright Well, I think um I think for the for the EU, I think that there\u0026#8217;s ah been a lot of concern about the regulatory landscape there. I think certainly um my sense of where the EU is that they\u0026#8217;re super interested in codifying best practices for energy efficiency. So if you\u0026#8217;re building a next generation data center, they\u0026#8217;ve got to meet particular guidelines or particular benchmarks for performance and energy efficiency.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:54.67\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nFor example, power usage effectiveness, right? how How much power is the data center using for cooling and how much of it is it using for compute? And you want that to be to be lower. And so the EU has gone about setting some of these standards, um and I think they\u0026#8217;re sensible. I think i think they they may that they they make a lot of sense, and certainly most of the big hyperscaler operators could easily meet those criteria.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:20.53\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nI think from the perspective of what\u0026#8217;s going on in in China, I think there\u0026#8217;s a lot of interest in, of course, building massive data centers. um I think the issue there is about energy, but it is certainly also about export controls and sanctions and ah the flow of that\u0026#8217;s that\u0026#8217;s a lot of hardware. And I think that\u0026#8217;s probably going to be the dominant factor to figure out whether or not um China will be able to get access to a sufficiently large number of high-performance GPUs and integrate them into a complex system at scale to to to keep up with with with the modeling.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:58.32\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay, I mean with China, and obviously they\u0026#8217;re opening new car power plants all the time\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:04.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:04.57\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThey seem, for all their rhetoric on and sustainability, they don\u0026#8217;t really seem to care. So do you reckon that gives them a competitive advantage when it comes to this sort of thing?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:16.40\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nI think certainly there is a sense that they are willing to use more coal i throughout their economy than than the United States might.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:26.74\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo I think um to the extent that that gives them more energy, I think that\u0026#8217;s that\u0026#8217;s sort of offset by the U.S.\u0026#8217;s advantage in natural gas. I think there there\u0026#8217;s a massive amount of natural gas in\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:36.20\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nokay\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:40.28\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nthe um in the shale reserves in the United States. And it\u0026#8217;s just a question of how much extraction we want to see. And certainly, as we mentioned earlier, natural gas is preferable to coal and could be a good bridge.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:55.16\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo I so i think from the energy supply perspective, um the the United States is pretty well positioned to defeat its data centers.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:01.11\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay. Okay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:04.35\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOh, fair enough. Okay, great. and That\u0026#8217;s all my questions, Ben. and Is there anything else you\u0026#8217;d like to mention that we haven\u0026#8217;t haven\u0026#8217;t mentioned or discussed you think is relevant?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:15.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nYou know, I think that this has been a great conversation. I\u0026#8217;ve been super excited to to to talk to you about many of these really interesting dimensions to data center computing. And and I think it was a broad ranging discussion. I think we covered most of our basis.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:29.29\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nFantastic. Yes, it\u0026#8217;s a subject term I certainly don\u0026#8217;t normally think about. It\u0026#8217;s been quite enlightening, I must admit. um But it in that case, Ben, ah thank you for your time. That was very, very interesting.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:41.44\u003cbr /\u003e\nBenjamin Lee\u003cbr /\u003e\nand Thanks so much, Chris. I really enjoyed it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:42.72\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOur pleasure.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eThat concludes this episode of Lexicon.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eThank you all for tuning in and being our guest today.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eFollow our social media channels for the latest science and technology news. Also, don’t forget to subscribe to IE+ for premium insights and exclusive content!\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\n","episode_number":"74","sponsor_image":null,"sponsor_name":null,"sponsor_url":null,"hosts":[{"name":"Christopher McFadden","title":"Host","biography":"\u003cp\u003eChristopher graduated from Cardiff University in 2004 with a Masters Degree in Geology. Since then, he has worked exclusively within the Built Environment, Occupational Health and Safety and Environmental Consultancy industries. He is a qualified and accredited Energy Consultant, Green Deal Assessor and Practitioner member of IEMA. Chris’s main interests range from Science and Engineering, Military and Ancient History to Politics and Philosophy.\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/avatars/XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","title":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","name":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","description":"N/A","alt_text":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","reference":null}}],"speakers":[{"name":"Professor Benjamin Lee","title":"Professor at the University of Pennsylvania","biography":"\u003cp\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://directory.seas.upenn.edu/benjamin-c-lee/\"\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eBenjamin C. Lee \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/a\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eis an Electrical and Systems Engineering and Computer and Information Science Professor at the University of Pennsylvania. He is also a visiting researcher at Google in the Global Infrastructure Group. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eDr. Lee’s research focuses on computer architecture (microprocessors, memories, data centers), energy efficiency, and environmental sustainability. He builds interdisciplinary links to machine learning and algorithmic economics to better design and manage computer systems. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eIn collaboration with Harvard, his research on sustainable computing received an Expedition in Computing award from the National Science Foundation in 2024. He received his post-doctorate from Stanford University, a Ph.D. from Harvard University, and a B.S. from the University of California at Berkeley. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eHe has also held visiting positions at Meta AI, Microsoft Research, Intel Labs, and Lawrence Livermore National Lab. He is an IEEE Fellow and ACM Distinguished Scientist. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/ben-lee.png","title":"ben-lee.png","name":"ben-lee.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"ben-lee.png","reference":null}}],"introductions":"\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eToday, we’re joined by \u003ca href=\"https://directory.seas.upenn.edu/benjamin-c-lee/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eBenjamin Lee\u003c/a\u003e, a professor at Penn Engineering and an expert in data center architecture, to explore the intersection of AI, energy, and sustainability.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eFrom natural gas to next-gen data centers, Benjamin shares insights into the challenges of powering AI’s growth and how innovation in energy infrastructure could shape the future of technology.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eJoin us as we dive into the race to balance rapid tech development with environmental goals and discover how the U.S. could lead the way in AI and energy efficiency.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eAlso, \u003c/span\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003edon’t forget to subscribe to \u003c/span\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://interestingengineering.com/subscribe\"\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eIE+\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/a\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003e for premium insights and exclusive content!\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n","host_introductions":null,"speakers_introductions":null,"player_code":"https://interestingengineering.com/podcast/lexicon/bridging-the-energy-gap-ai-and-the-future-of-data-centers","publish_date":"2025-01-30T15:23:00+00:00","publish_date_detail":"Jan 30, 2025 10:23 AM EST","status":1,"page_title":"Bridging the energy gap: AI and the future of data centers","keywords":"AI data centers","description":"","seo_title":"Bridging the energy gap: AI and the future of data centers - Interesting Engineering","og_title":"Bridging the energy gap: AI and the future of data centers - Interesting Engineering","og_image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-24.png","title":"1-24.png","name":"1-24.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"1-24.png","reference":null},"og_url":null,"og_type":null,"main_image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-24.png","title":"1-24.png","name":"1-24.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"1-24.png","reference":null}},{"title":"From vodka to hydrogen: exploring LiquidPiston’s revolutionary X-Engine","abstract":"Alec Shkolnik of LiquidPiston shares how the revolutionary X-Engine is reshaping power generation, from military to multi-fuel hybrid innovation!","slug":"from-vodka-to-hydrogen-exploring-liquidpistons-revolutionary-x-engine","transcript":"\u003cp\u003eWelcome to today’s episode of Lexicon! I’m Christopher McFadden, a contributing writer for Interesting Engineering.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eToday, we sat down with Alec Shkolnik, co-founder and CEO of LiquidPiston, to explore how revolutionary engine designs reshape power generation.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eFrom military-grade innovations to multi-fuel versatility, Alec shares insights into solving real-world challenges with LiquidPiston’s cutting-edge X-Engine.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eJoin us as we dive into the future of energy, exploring how compact, efficient engines could transform industries and redefine what’s possible in power technology.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eBefore getting into today’s episode, here’s something to elevate your 2025.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eLevel up your knowledge with IE+! Subscribe today to access exclusive premium articles enriched with expert insights and enjoy members-only technical newsletters designed to keep you ahead in technology and science.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eSubscribe now!\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:00.67\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlec, thanks for joining us. How are you today?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:03.20\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\ndoing very well. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:04.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nbut Our pleasure. um For our audience\u0026#8217;s benefit, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, please?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:10.27\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, sure. I\u0026#8217;m Alex Skolnick. I\u0026#8217;m the co-founder and CEO here at Liquid Piston. ah My father, Nick, and I, we we started the company almost 20 years ago, actually, around 2003. So my father is a physicist by background. I have a background in ah in robotics, a PhD from MIT in artificial intelligence.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:33.25\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo we really just kind of came at the the challenge of engines from a perspective of physics and optimization, just asking really basic questions like, what can we do to improve improve the engine?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:47.61\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nI was going to say an eclectic mix, but there\u0026#8217;s a lot of overlap really, engineering and physics.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:53.49\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:54.21\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo building on that then. So what inspired you to revisit and innovate on the Winkel engine design and how did your background and your father\u0026#8217;s involvement shape the X engine?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:04.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, so my again, my dad\u0026#8217;s a ah physicist. He\u0026#8217;s always kind of been interested in thinking about um thermodynamics and power and energy solutions. he He has a very kind of interesting career, but he ended up doing innovation consulting, focusing in a field called TRIZ.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:22.72\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s a Russian acronym for theory of ad inventive problem solving.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:23.53\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nlike\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:25.95\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo it\u0026#8217;s a methodology to help solve problems and innovate. um And he ended up being a ah consultant in energy systems. So he has patents in super capacitors and fuel cells and batteries, a whole bunch of energy-related technologies. But he always kept coming back to the engine. um If you look at your car engine as an example,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:51.77\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou know, it only converts about 15 to 17 percent of the energy and fuel into useful mechanical work. And from a physics perspective, that always just kind of bothered him, like, why are we leaving so much on the table? Right. Physics physics suggests that we can do better. So I was ah I was starting a PhD program at MIT. um You know, I started just kind of helping him out. We ended up ah participating in a business plan challenge at MIT. And ah one thing kind of led to another. By the time I finished my my my degree there, um you know the company was rocking and and rolling. um And you know why why a rotary? um I guess a short answer to that. we We really started with the thermodynamics of engines, how engines operate, how they really convert.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:46.87\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nthe the chemical energy of fuel into into work. And ah with rotary engines, we find a lot more flexibility. There\u0026#8217;s a lot of kind of geometric tricks we can play. So part of the TRIS methodology is to keep things really, really simple, have very few parts. um But we also are trying to embody this new type of thermodynamic cycle that\u0026#8217;s more efficient inherently. And we we discovered that rotary engines kind of have a lot of versatility that we can use to you know try to figure out how to do it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:24.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\num So the X engine was a journey. um you know the The company started with an idea of a liquid piston design. um And think of ah almost a regular piston, except replace the metal piston with water. And um you you know very interesting concept. we could We could improve the thermodynamics of an engine. um It was purely theoretical at that stage. Everybody thought we were crazy. um you know It turns out that that um\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:54.77\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s actually in in use today as a ah pump for fish, for fish processing. It\u0026#8217;s called a pump-free pump. They would combust over over fluid and that combustion pressure would, you know, it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s the most gentle way actually to move fish around.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:10.12\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nGlocks during.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:10.98\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:12.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:14.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo ah we we were looking at how to embody this cycle. And we we started developing different types of rotary engines. um And another way to think of our company, we we\u0026#8217;ve kind of ah we\u0026#8217;ve learned several ways of not doing the cycle, if so to speak. So we we you know the X engine itself is the fourth incarnation of our engine in pursuit of of the cycle.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:43.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s the best way to do it in trial and error, basically. Sorry, especially in engineering.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:46.43\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nWell, I would say more than trial and error. There\u0026#8217;s a tremendous amount of analysis and modeling, and we we we do trial. um ah Yeah, there\u0026#8217;s there\u0026#8217;s it takes a really dedicated team, a lot of people. you know my My father and I are outsiders from the engine um space, which is ah is a dual-edged sword, right? we We didn\u0026#8217;t know what\u0026#8217;s impossible. We didn\u0026#8217;t listen to all the people that told us that it\u0026#8217;s impossible. um And I think that\u0026#8217;s what\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:19.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nwhat made it also work that we could go and try try something totally new and different without being inhibited by um the the norms of the industry. um But we definitely surround ourselves by a lot of people that that have you know decades of experience in in engines and related fields.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:39.67\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo it takes a team.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:39.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand Super. Excellent.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:41.59\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:41.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat was paid off. So again, building on that, can you explain the so called the high efficiency hybrid thermodynamic cycle and how it combines the advantages of diesel, auto engines and Atkinson thermodynamic cycles?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:55.86\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat is a mouthful.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:56.39\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nbut It is a mouthful. So yeah, kind of as you allude to, if we look at the different thermodynamic cycles out there, they each kind of have their advantages. So, you know, if I asked you what\u0026#8217;s more efficient, ah a gasoline engine, like an auto cycle or a diesel cycle, what, what would you say?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:15.67\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nMy end still would be D, so I\u0026#8217;m pretty wrong.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:18.39\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nthats That\u0026#8217;s everybody\u0026#8217;s instinct. And if you look at you know a diesel car is more efficient, it gets better in miles per gallons than a gasoline car. so In practice, diesel engines are more efficient, but the thermodynamics of the cycles will will suggest that um it\u0026#8217;s the effect of the compression ratio, right? Diesel engines are able to achieve a higher compression ratio, and the higher compression ratio drives a a better thermodynamic efficiency. If you were to compare a gasoline spark-ignited engine and a diesel engine at the same compression ratio, the gasoline engine would actually win.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:57.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo you know this is this is just kind of like thermal 101 stuff. a Constant volume combustion from from ah from from a gasoline engine is a better form of combustion. But if you have premixed air and fuel, ah it limits your overall compression ratio. So the question that we have is, how do we get constant volume combustion and a high compression ratio. these are These are two key elements. So we want to kind of borrow the the combustion from a gasoline engine with a ah compression of a diesel engine. And then the last piece is engines have a lot of energy left over in their exhaust.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:40.35\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nUh huh.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:40.57\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nIf you\u0026#8217;ve ever heard a car that has a leak in the muffler, um you know it\u0026#8217;s really noisy.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:44.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nUh huh.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:46.39\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou\u0026#8217;re You\u0026#8217;re hearing that energy, right? Typically more than a third of of the chemical energy and fuel is lost out the out the exhaust, just literally just pressure and and heat that comes out the exhaust.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:59.46\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo ah the thermodynamically, we want to at least capture all of that pressure and keep keep expanding it and converting it into useful work.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:10.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo that is a overexpansion part of the cycle. So those are the three key key pieces of the cycle. We want to have a high compression like a diesel, constant volume combustion, and overexpansion. um And the constant volume piece, you you know there\u0026#8217;s there\u0026#8217;s kind of two ways to do that. One is by having a very rapid combustion process. you can you can um essentially try to have a controlled explosion of the fuel.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:38.04\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd that\u0026#8217;s, if you\u0026#8217;ve heard of HCCI, homogenous charge compression ignition, that\u0026#8217;s been kind of the holy grail of engine research for you know the last couple of decades now.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:42.74\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:50.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nBillions of dollars are are getting poured into this. they\u0026#8217;re They\u0026#8217;re trying to have controlled explosions, and that\u0026#8217;s a very challenging thing. As you can imagine, it becomes a big controls problem, and it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s really hard on the engine, especially at higher loads.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:58.52\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:04.47\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nah The other approach is, hey, let\u0026#8217;s give the engine more time that it needs to actually complete the air mixing and and combustion process. ah So that\u0026#8217;s what we\u0026#8217;re trying to do.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:15.93\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd again, that\u0026#8217;s kind of where the rotary comes in. You know, a piston engine, you can\u0026#8217;t you can\u0026#8217;t stop the motion. In a rotary engine, ah the way that if you if you look at how the X engine operates, you\u0026#8217;ll see that at at the maximum compression point, what we call top dead center, the rotor is still spinning, but the volume is not changing. So this just kind of gives you a little bit more time to get more more complete combustion. um So that\u0026#8217;s that\u0026#8217;s kind of how we combine these things.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:46.72\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nExcellent, so it\u0026#8217;s kind of the best of of both worlds isn\u0026#8217;t it?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:49.62\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, it\u0026#8217;s really it\u0026#8217;s really cherry picking, right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:49.51\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nd like yeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:51.74\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo we didn\u0026#8217;t invent any one stroke, but we\u0026#8217;re borrowing features from all these different cycles that have been done independently in the past, and we\u0026#8217;re combining them into one kind of super cycle.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:03.95\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nFantastic, so obviously the Wankel engine was an inspiration, it\u0026#8217;s not the same but it\u0026#8217;s a massive inspiration for this sort\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:09.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo the Weinkel engine is, ah we we characterize it as a rotary engine that operates on the traditional four stroke, spark ignited cycle.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:18.77\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nright okay\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:22.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo we were not developing a rotary engine for the sake of developing a rotary engine, right? We we got there because we think it\u0026#8217;s a easier pathway to implementing the cycle.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:35.12\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\num and we we looked at various different kinds of rotary engines. The X engine, I would actually kind of say it\u0026#8217;s more like a inside out Winkel rotary or inverted Winkel.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:41.60\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:46.46\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nokay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:49.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo if you look at the Winkel engine, your your listeners may be familiar with you know the Mazda rotary, the ax the RX series of sports cars. um there There was a Saks snowmobile engine and The Army today flies with the Shadow UAV. It\u0026#8217;s the most widely deployed Army UAV. It actually flies with the Wankel engine. So these engines have had some ah commercial success. um If you look at how they work, they have a triangular piston, a triangular rotor inside of a peanut-shaped housing.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:25.50\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nah So it\u0026#8217;s ah it\u0026#8217;s a two lobed peanut shaped housing. If you imagine kind of turning that quote unquote inside out. So we have a peanut shaped rotor that operates within a three lobed housing. So take everything you might know about the Winkel and turn it inside out. The Winkel has a long skinny moving combustion chamber. That\u0026#8217;s really one of its major Achilles heels if you look at how combustion develops inside of an engine you you get a kernel of the combustion and and then you get kind of a ball of.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e12:01.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nof combustion and it and it grows um more or less like a ball. And imagine trying to grow a ball of flame inside of a long narrow corridor that\u0026#8217;s moving. um And by the way, the corridor is is cold compared to your flame. It extinguishes the flame. So it\u0026#8217;s really hard to get complete you know thorough combustion inside the wine cold. So that\u0026#8217;s one major problem. The other problem is with ah ceiling and lubrication and you know that causes emissions and durability challenges as well.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e12:38.35\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nso The Winekill engine is great because it has very few parts. It has very low vibration, you know very well balanced engine. It\u0026#8217;s very ah compact, very high power to weight. So it makes for a really nice, powerful, responsive engine. Really great for a sports car, really great you you know for for u a UAV, where you really it\u0026#8217;s all about power to weight, where you need to to have that power available. It\u0026#8217;s great. um But then if you care about efficiency, durability, emissions,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:09.16\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nYou know, all all the things that we tend to actually care about when we like drive a vehicle, for example, um it it suffers. So in turning that engine inside out, we first of all, instead of a long skinny moving combustion chamber, now we have a stationary combustion chamber in the housing. So instead of the combustion chamber being in the rotor, the chamber is now in the housing.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:32.95\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nWith that, we can drive a higher compression ratio. You just make the chamber smaller and it\u0026#8217;s suitable for direct injection of fuel by having fuel injectors. And guess what?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:43.01\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nThose are the two ingredients you need to run a diesel cycle.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:46.13\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:46.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo so the Winkel engine could never run a diesel cycle and the X engine inherently can run the diesel cycle. So that\u0026#8217;s a major difference. The other major difference is in the wankle, they have these moving apex seals, the three points of the triangle.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:00.40\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:02.93\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nThey have seals that slide and they tend to bounce around and they\u0026#8217;re very difficult to lubricate. right How do you get oil to these you know a very, very fast moving seals? So so that\u0026#8217; that\u0026#8217;s what creates the challenges with with that engine. You can\u0026#8217;t really lubricate these very well. You end up putting a lot of oil in. ah you you You mix the oil into the air so that some of it can get to those seals, but really in reality, most of it, you\u0026#8217;re just burning all that oil and that\u0026#8217;s what causes your emissions problems while you\u0026#8217;re not properly lubricating your seals.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:38.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou get durability problems. In our engine, the X engine, turning everything inside out, instead of moving tip seals in the rotor, we have tip seals that are stationary within the housing. um So what that allows is direct lubrication of the seals and just kind of a more controlled ceiling that where they\u0026#8217;re not bouncing around and and moving at high speeds. And so we\u0026#8217;re we\u0026#8217;re solving the key problems with sealing and lubrication and durability.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:07.12\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nthat\u0026#8217;s inherent to the rotary. So you know yes, we we are a rotary engine for sure. um But if when people ask me if we\u0026#8217;re a Wankel or aren\u0026#8217;t we you know similar to a Wankel, I say yes, yes, but you know it\u0026#8217;s actually quite the opposite. um So we we build on the natural power density of a rotary engine, very few components. you know There\u0026#8217;s just a rotor and a shaft.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:31.53\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nand yet we\u0026#8217;re able to op optimize the thermodynamic cycle and address the key challenges of the rotary.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:38.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nFair enough. I feel like I\u0026#8217;ve insulted you. Apologies. In that case.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:41.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nit\u0026#8217;s all It\u0026#8217;s all good.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:43.18\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand So in regards to fuel, is it multi-fuel theoretically?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:48.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, so that\u0026#8217;s that\u0026#8217;s one of the really cool things about um about this engine.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:48.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nthen\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:54.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\num First of all, it can inherently run on heavy fuels, fuels like kerosene, ah jet fuel, and diesel.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:58.06\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:02.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd these are the fuels that basically power the DOD, right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:05.90\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:06.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\num The DOD is the single largest consumer of oil on the planet. um they They\u0026#8217;re just a mega consumer, but also,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:12.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:18.74\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou know they They measure this in lives. right it It can take 100 gallons of fuel to push one gallon all the way to the front line.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:22.53\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:28.66\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nand Not only is that expensive, right that that can be $400 or $500 per gallon at the front line, but something like a quarter of our casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan were were lost in protecting fuel convoys.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:44.90\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou know Fuel and energy and power make a really good\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:45.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nright\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:48.40\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\ntarget, ah unfortunately.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:49.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:50.45\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nwe We see this in the the current conflicts in Ukraine, for example. right um So what we really want to work towards is distributing our power and energy systems.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:02.41\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nWe want to work towards you know small, lightweight, ah and and efficient power solutions, and that\u0026#8217;s exactly what we can help do. And to your ti question here, you know yes, we can run on a variety of fuels, including all the heavy fuels, so we can really help support the DoD.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:22.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut beyond that, we can run on gasoline. we can run you know we We had a YouTuber come to our facility. He ran the engine on vodka. So there\u0026#8217;s there\u0026#8217;s a video of this ah this guy you know running around and on a and the scooter with a vodka-powered X engine. um But moving forward, we we\u0026#8217;re looking forward to running the engine on hydrogen.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:47.04\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd we\u0026#8217;ve started started to dabble on that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:47.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:49.29\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut, you know, if you think about hydrogen, you can generate hydrogen from water, right? You just split water molecules, you get hydrogen and oxygen, and then you recombine them in an engine and it gives you heat back.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:01.65\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo you can take electricity or or solar energy and generate hydrogen. and then you can use your you know Basically, the hydrogen is a storage mechanism of the energy. And then you you release that energy using a an engine like ours. um That brings engines into a low carbon, potentially a zero carbon world. So it completely flips the entire narrative. you know and And it really combines um with electrification. And this is another kind of,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:36.38\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nquestion that I often get is how how does this stuff relate to electrification? like Isn\u0026#8217;t the world going electric? And what\u0026#8217;s the role of engines in that world? um I think we\u0026#8217;re starting to see the pendulum on that discussion you know starting to swing back. ah So we\u0026#8217;ve we\u0026#8217;ve been saying for a long time that Electrification is great. It has its place really interestingly I\u0026#8217;m not sure if you know so some of your your listeners may may be aware of this but the first cars were all electric and um Then people started to experiment with engines and engines didn\u0026#8217;t take off as a major um Element in cars and actually the car didn\u0026#8217;t take off until we married electric starters with the engine\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:28.13\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt was that marriage of electric and engine that finally allowed cars to displace the the horse and carriage as the major you know form of transportation. um So we we kind of see this very interesting play between electric and engine. And people ask me if if you know what\u0026#8217;s going to happen there. I think that these are always going to be um joint technologies. I think we are offering a pathway to help electrification. So imagine a vehicle with a very small engine on it. And we\u0026#8217;re using it just for for range extension. um You know, and especially if you go to hydrogen power, maybe you do the bulk of your driving with electric with batteries. And the best the best feature of an electric car is regenerative braking, right? you You put all this work and energy into\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:24.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\npowering up your your car and accelerating. And ah in a regular engine-based car, you know using brakes, you\u0026#8217;re throwing all that energy away as heat. In an electric car, you\u0026#8217;re putting that energy back into the battery, at least a lot of it. So that that is the number one advantage, in my opinion, if you ask me. That\u0026#8217;s the number one advantage of electrification.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:47.58\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut beyond that, engines have a lot of advantages. you know what Why do you need to carry a 1200 pound battery everywhere you go? And oh, by the way, that battery has to get charged somewhere.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:00.80\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nIf you look at the amount of energy that flows through a gas station, you know energy divided by time is power.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:04.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nUh-huh. Alright.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:08.60\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nA gas station, if if you want to replace four gas stations on a really busy intersection, you would need to put up a small nuclear power plant.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:18.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo people just don\u0026#8217;t think about this, right? We don\u0026#8217;t have the infrastructure to produce all those electrons that are needed ah to go everywhere. And the question is, would you rather put up nuclear power reactors and other, you know, major power sources, or would you rather just kind of generate the electricity on the fly as you need it and take advantage of of the best of both worlds, right? You can get regenerative braking while also generating the electricity that you need right on board your vehicle.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:48.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo that that\u0026#8217;s our view. We we think the world is is going to be hybrid. We think hybrid offers you know the the best of all solutions. At one extreme, you get all electric.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:59.58\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nAt one extreme, you get all engine.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:59.77\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nMm\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:01.57\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd then there\u0026#8217;s an entire infinite ah spectrum in the middle there.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:02.97\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\n-hm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:06.59\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo there\u0026#8217;s there\u0026#8217;s there\u0026#8217;s just a lot more opportunity for optimization when you look at things from a hybrid perspective.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:13.84\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely. You\u0026#8217;ve stolen all my follow-up questions there in 10 minutes.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:18.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nThere you go.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:19.46\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, I was going to tell you, it would be yeah yeah this doesn\u0026#8217;t have to be either or. It\u0026#8217;s going to be a combination of the two really, especially with biofuels and as well. You can move away from fossil fuels. It\u0026#8217;s such a useful and way to have store energy as a liquid fuel.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:34.71\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nYep, there\u0026#8217;s a lot of a lot of research going on in different types of fuels and we\u0026#8217;re learning that we can we can generate fuels, we can take bio waste and you know develop forms of diesel in aviation.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:34.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nwhat\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:43.18\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:47.39\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou know um there\u0026#8217; There\u0026#8217;s sustainable aviation fuel, SAF, and that\u0026#8217;s that\u0026#8217;s a big direction. um And yeah, we\u0026#8217;re we\u0026#8217;re just happy that the rotary engine is really kind of known to work well on a variety of different types of fuels. And we we\u0026#8217;ve definitely seen that and we\u0026#8217;ve we\u0026#8217;ve experimented with a variety of these fuels and and demonstrated that it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s capable there.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:13.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nGreat. and kind of You\u0026#8217;ve kind of answered this already, but you\u0026#8217;ve you\u0026#8217;ve got a 10 kilowatt generator prototype that you use for the U.S. military. It\u0026#8217;s been described as a game changer. and What specific challenges does ah does it solve for the military?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:29.76\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, so in the military, you know, everywhere that we go, they they need more power and more energy on the move, right? they They\u0026#8217;re always deploying somewhere they they and and when they\u0026#8217;re the first thing they need to do when they go somewhere.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:44.84\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nis set up a ah base, set up a control station for a UAB, you you know power a radar, power a laser, they that they they need power everywhere. And the way that they get power today is with these mobile generators. If you look at a 10 kilowatt gen set that the military uses, it\u0026#8217;s over a thousand pounds. So now that gen set itself needs a trailer and that trailer needs a truck and that truck needs people to protect it and and you just kind of see that all of this cascades.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:14.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:18.50\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nah So imagine the impact instead of a thousand pounds if we can get this down to even 200 pounds long term we want to be less than that but right now we\u0026#8217;re at 200 pounds that becomes man-portable. That\u0026#8217;s something that soldiers can lift and and throw into a pickup truck if they want to. They can put it on ah on a anywhere they want and just kind of go with it. So um it is a game changer for them just with the logistical trail that\u0026#8217;s that\u0026#8217;s required right now to move power around, ah to have something that\u0026#8217;s extremely lightweight and and nimble and\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:55.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nbeing able to give them the power that they need um that\u0026#8217;s that\u0026#8217;s super important and we we talked earlier about power and energy being a ah target right we have these convoys of fuel logistics and you know you take out the power for a squadron, you you you damage them, right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:17.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s a critical target. ah So anything we can do to help make it smaller, lighter, if you have these things that are five times smaller and lighter now, guess what?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:27.96\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nUh,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:28.76\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat makes it much easier to have two of them. With two of them, if one of them gets taken out, you still have the other capability.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:31.12\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nhuh.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:35.52\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight now, you you still have available power. So all of that is is a game changer.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:42.09\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand kind of looking the other way, okay, you getting smaller is great, but what about if you upscaled the X engine? um I don\u0026#8217;t, what do you need to, I suppose. Are they going to fight sort submarines or or for ships? If you have a bigger version of it, would that make any, have any benefits?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:00.32\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, um so we the technology is scalable from you know down to five horsepower and up to about a thousand horsepower, I would say.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:05.74\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight. Okay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:09.76\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nGoing much beyond a thousand horsepower, you know there are solutions like like turbine engines that are extremely efficient in that range.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:17.11\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:19.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\num You know, subs, a lot of subs use nuclear today and you you have to figure out how to get oxygen to your engine.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:23.48\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:27.16\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:27.31\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\num There are some self oxygenating fuels, so it it is possible. It\u0026#8217;s just more of a niche, a niche case. um But definitely scaling, you know, there\u0026#8217;s a lot of applications in that five to thousand horsepower ah space.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:44.33\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd that\u0026#8217;s really exciting. um So you mentioned the 10 kilowatt gen set.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:48.60\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nhit\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:48.86\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nah we\u0026#8217;re also We recently signed a $35 million dollars contract with the Air Force and that\u0026#8217;s working on a larger engine and a larger genset. So pretty soon we\u0026#8217;ll have a portfolio of engines where you can have you know multiples of about 100 horsepower and that can serve truly a variety of applications.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:11.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nFantastic. um So beyond the minute tree, and what other applications could this could this transform, what other industries could it transform? and\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:20.48\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, so so think about anywhere that we use engines today is ah is a target for us and anywhere that we use small turbines. Small turbines are really interesting.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:30.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nright\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:32.67\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nah They have incredible power density, power to weight, ah but their fuel economy is really quite dismal. So things like APUs, auxiliary power units for vehicles where you\u0026#8217;re you\u0026#8217;re not doing the main power for a system, but you\u0026#8217;re doing you\u0026#8217;re you\u0026#8217;re sort of powering everything else other than other than the primary propulsion. um That\u0026#8217;s a big challenge. And you know I\u0026#8217;ll just give you an example. I was sitting on ah on a tarmac. This was my my last flight before COVID shut down the world. And the pilot gets on the plane and he says, I have good news and bad news. The good news is we we\u0026#8217;re we\u0026#8217;re going to have a shorter flight path into Boston.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:10.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nWe\u0026#8217;re going to save, I forget what he said, an hour off the off of flight time. The bad news is we\u0026#8217;re going to be too heavy to land in Boston. So what the pilot did, he turned on the APU for, I don\u0026#8217;t know, 15 minutes and he reduced the weight of the aircraft.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:28.48\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nThis little auxiliary engine\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:29.36\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWell,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:31.12\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nis so inefficient at burning fuel that they can use it to reduce the and the the aircraft weight just by burning off a bunch of fuel. So um you you know that that that\u0026#8217;s an interesting space that I think we are going to to play in um in in the future.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:49.68\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\num So you know we\u0026#8217;re we\u0026#8217;re starting with the military. It\u0026#8217;s a kind of a beachhead customer for us.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:55.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyes.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:55.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nthey Every corner that we look at in the military, they they are You know, that they really would benefit from ah more more power in a smaller package that\u0026#8217;s that\u0026#8217;s more nimble. um so and And they\u0026#8217;re willing to help pay for the development of the technology. So they\u0026#8217;ve they\u0026#8217;ve been a really great customer to work with and, you know, that\u0026#8217;s kind of a win-win, right? they They\u0026#8217;re helping us launch the company and and we\u0026#8217;re helping solve a critical need for for defense.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:26.07\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut the the application here is much, much broader you know beyond beyond that. right So that\u0026#8217;s that\u0026#8217;s kind of the first domino for us.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:35.16\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo how long would it be possible to potentially buy a car up with this kind of engine in it? it with that We\u0026#8217;re talking a decade, 20 years or more.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:46.02\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\na car A car is interesting. um That might be one of the longer term ones.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:51.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:52.21\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou know we we have we\u0026#8217;ve We\u0026#8217;ve seen a lot of other engine companies. um Unfortunately, most of them have not succeeded in in in the past. um Interestingly, my my father showed me a textbook a while ago, and it describes common rail fuel injection systems. And I said, this is great, dad. Why are you showing this to me? um I kind of know this. And he said, look at the year of the book. It was from 1972.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:22.32\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWow.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:22.55\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo that technology wasn\u0026#8217;t adopted by the automotive industry until the 90s. And it was well known and published in textbooks. It was already being taught in schools in the in the early 70s, 20 years ahead.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:37.55\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo, I mean, that just kind of shows the timeline that the automotive industry traditionally has moved at. I think, um you know, there\u0026#8217;s there\u0026#8217;s been a lot of disruption in the automotive world, but it\u0026#8217;s still a fairly conservative market and industry on a whole. um So we we are kind of purposefully not targeting the automotive space yet as a first application, um you know,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:03.94\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s tempting because it\u0026#8217;s about a three hundred billion dollar market for automotive engines. um But outside of automotive, there\u0026#8217;s about $100 billion dollars in other engine markets. So we we\u0026#8217;ve just kind of made a conscious decision to start with um more niche applications and then go into increasingly higher volume as as time goes on. um So yes, it it probably will be over a decade before you see us in a car. ah But i hope it\u0026#8217;s I hope it\u0026#8217;s well within that ah to see us in in other applications.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:39.71\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nokay Forgive my ignorance, but from a mechanical point of view, it\u0026#8217;s a lot simpler system than a traditional combustion engine, diesel or gasoline.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:49.90\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nYep. Yep.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:52.64\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo maintenance and maintenance costs and things like that will be considerably lower.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:58.47\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nYep. Once everything is fully, fully developed and productionized and you know in in field and in service, that is 100% true. ah The engine has you know very few components, relatively speaking. There\u0026#8217;s a rotor and a shaft.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:14.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou know, that there are bearings and and some gears. Those are the major components inside the engine. And then you have the the the fuel system and other systems that kind of all engines would would have.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:26.01\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut the the core of the core of the engine itself probably has about 10x, you know, of an order of magnitude reduction in parts.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:31.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nright\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:35.02\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\num But it\u0026#8217;s still it\u0026#8217;s um engines are extremely nuanced devices. And every little change that you make to them, you\u0026#8217;re impacting 10 other things. So it also takes quite a bit of time to, like the in software, you have an idea. You know you you try something. you can You can understand if the idea has a good chance of working within a few weeks. In the engine world, to design and\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:05.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nand prototype and test a new idea. Really, that takes probably at least about four to six months, I would say. um And so it\u0026#8217;s just a much longer cycle time to even try um something new. And then there are there are literally thousands of variables, you know thousands of ways to optimize and change the design in in very nuanced ways that that all kind of intertwine with each other.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:33.68\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo we\u0026#8217;re leveraging very heavily computational tools. You know, we basically have supercomputers at our ah at our facility.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:38.46\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:42.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\num we We do a lot of software modeling, so we we are trying millions of cases of you know different optimizations in in software before we before we cut any real chips. ah But even so, you know it\u0026#8217;s still it still takes a surprising amount of time to develop an engine. um so In the automotive world, it\u0026#8217;s about a seven-year cycle to design and and develop and and introduce a new engine. and That is a piston-based technology that\u0026#8217;s been around for\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:15.33\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\n100 years. So we we know everything about it. There\u0026#8217;s textbooks, you know, they they have 100 people that are just dedicated to each subsystem on on that engine. And it\u0026#8217;s a cookie cutter thing, right? you you You take the recipe that worked last time, and you apply it to your next time. ah Doing something completely new, where there are no textbooks, we\u0026#8217;re we\u0026#8217;re writing the book as we go. There\u0026#8217;s no, you you know, empirical correlations, we we don\u0026#8217;t know the exact heat transfer characteristics in our engine. you know we We don\u0026#8217;t have all of the learnings that that are in the piston engine world, and yet we\u0026#8217;re trying to optimize the system and bring it up also to the level of something that\u0026#8217;s been around for over 100 years. you know If we were trying to compete with the engine of the 1950s,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:07.31\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nit would be a very different story, but we have to compete with the engine of of today in order to be successful in the market. So that that requires a level of maturity that, um you know, it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s getting those those last details right is a lot of a lot of work.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:25.60\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, that\u0026#8217;s fair enough. Are you finding, have you found any application for AI in helping you with the design or providing the design or at all?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:34.40\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, yeah we we we do use, as I said, supercomputers and software.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:38.62\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nis\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:39.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd then you know the the search space, the the available you know optimization space for the engine is still so large that we need to um more we need to be very careful of how we search the space.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:53.31\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd as an example, CFD, computational fluid dynamics, um If we want to model the gas motion and the chemical properties and the fuel air mixing and the combustion, and we want to do all of this inside of the engine, that simulation takes over a week to run.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:14.60\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight? So we can\u0026#8217;t just sit there and try a million things. We\u0026#8217;ll we\u0026#8217;ll we\u0026#8217;ll be here for a million weeks. um So we we have to be very selective in what we are trying, what we are exploring, whether it\u0026#8217;s in metal or or in something like CFD.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:31.97\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd one way of doing that is by applying AI tools to kind of help help point you in the direction of where to where to look.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:38.95\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nCool.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:39.97\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo we we are leveraging those technologies.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:41.25\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nCool.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:43.81\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand Fantastic. Okay, I\u0026#8217;ll skip over quite a few questions because you already answered them. ah So with 82 patents issued or pending, how does Liquid Piston manage its intellectual property to stay competitive whilst fostering collaboration and or partnerships?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:00.14\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, I mean, we have a kind of but both a broad and deep ah patent portfolio. um you know my My father\u0026#8217;s background in Tris, he was also doing some work in something called patent busting.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:14.13\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\num He would be hired by by companies and either they would try to figure out how to go around somebody else\u0026#8217;s patents or they would try to poke holes in their own portfolio and strengthen their portfolio so that nobody else could go around them.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:14.23\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:30.10\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo you you know we we have a very kind of deep understanding of um of the patent world. We\u0026#8217;re also working with you know an exceptional patent attorney and and firm, but Bruce Sunstein. He\u0026#8217;s kind of famous for patenting the segue.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:46.52\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nHow are we?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:48.56\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\num So in in terms of the patents, you know we have patents on the thermodynamic cycle. right This is an extremely fundamental patent. The next layer above that is something like the X engine. you know Imagine patenting a four-stroke piston engine. right It\u0026#8217;s an extremely broad patent. And then the final layer is what we call pickets or a fence. It\u0026#8217;s all the little things that that make the system work. How do you cool it? How do you seal it? How do you lubricate it? How do you make it?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:22.04\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nah durable, etc. so um you know it\u0026#8217;s It\u0026#8217;s a very carefully thought out um patent portfolio. The patents are not cheap. um they They cost a lot of money to to get and defend. and um you know and Also, I would say that patents are only a portion of the intellectual property of the company.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:46.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nReally, we we are developing the tools, the know-how, the processes, um all of that. There\u0026#8217;s a lot of stuff that\u0026#8217;s not patented that is kind of kept as as knowledge inside of the company. And that that is extremely valuable for us. So you know we the way that we\u0026#8217;re trying to commercialize this technology and how what what kind of a business we\u0026#8217;re going to be,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:13.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\num A lot of people don\u0026#8217;t know this, but when automotive companies come out with a new engine, they will typically contract one of a handful of companies, you know, FEV, IAV, AVL, and Ricardo. that There\u0026#8217;s a handful of companies that really ah have very deep expertise in piston engine development and especially, you know, automotive engine development. And so Chrysler will will contract one of these ah companies, they\u0026#8217;ll work together for a while and then and then transition over to production under under Chrysler. So we kind of want to be the AVL of the X-Engine, right? um It\u0026#8217;s our way of kind of being very efficient at getting the technology out into a variety ah of applications. There are also, there are a lot of companies out there that are really good at\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:07.31\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nmaking, selling, servicing, distributing engines and other ah systems. And as a startup, we don\u0026#8217;t have any of that capability. we ah So either we would need to invest probably on on the order of a billion dollars to tool up a an engine production capability. If we\u0026#8217;re talking about high volume, something like automotive,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:31.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah that That\u0026#8217;s what you would be looking at, just to just to tool up a a facility for for producing such engines. Or we can partner with somebody that already has that, and you know we become the innovation arm, the technology arm, and and the engineering and design arm of of that company.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:50.19\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo that the the IP is extremely important for us in in that business model, right? Where ultimately we\u0026#8217;re licensing the technology to to existing players.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:03.38\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nHave you got any plans to go public? That\u0026#8217;s your idea.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:06.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\num Yeah, you know we\u0026#8217;ve we\u0026#8217;ve had a very interesting history in fundraising um So we we have done the traditional venture capital route um And more recently we have done what\u0026#8217;s called equity crowdfunding which is sort of ah almost a form of of going public but basically\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:14.04\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:24.84\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay. Yep.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:31.02\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nit\u0026#8217;s a way for private companies to raise money ah publicly. um So we we we can announce a fundraise and and then raise money. um We actually have over 19,000 investors in the company and you know we we\u0026#8217;ve raised over $50 million dollars through these types of equity fundraises. um In terms of going public, you know that there\u0026#8217;s There\u0026#8217;s a few ways that companies will traditionally return um provide returns for shareholders. So the most the most common way, at least for a venture-backed company, would be through an M and\u0026amp;A, through an acquisition.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e42:15.74\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\num\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e42:15.74\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nMm hmm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e42:16.84\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou know Perhaps if we are valuable to somebody like a Honda or a Lockheed Martin or or somebody, you know we we become their engine division at some point. um that That is probably the most likely scenario, just how how most venture companies would exit.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e42:35.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\num If we are insanely profitable and the licensing model is going you know swimmingly well, we can return dividends to shareholders. And the third approach is in in going public. So if we do want to tool up, for example, and and kind of raise larger amounts of of money in order to um kind of become a bigger a bigger business, we you know thats that\u0026#8217;s an option that we can look at.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e43:04.20\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nA lot of things have to go you know just just right for that kind of opportunity. The markets have to be just just right and the technology has to be at the right at the right stage.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e43:11.93\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nMm hmm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e43:16.54\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s possible, you know it\u0026#8217;s but it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s not um not something that we\u0026#8217;re we\u0026#8217;re counting on right now.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e43:25.06\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nFair enough, fair enough. Just interested to see if and anyone can invest in me basically you easily or not. So that brings us to the last question really. So reflecting on liquid pistons 15 years of progress, and what are you most proud of and what excites you about the next phase in the company\u0026#8217;s development?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e43:44.10\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, that\u0026#8217;s a really great question. I think I\u0026#8217;m most proud of the team. I mean, it\u0026#8217;s really been an amazing team. It\u0026#8217;s not an easy thing by any stretch to develop a new engine.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e43:57.83\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\num you know that there are There are just so many things that we need to to do. And we have a fraction of the resources of a large company that is is doing this. So with a very small team, you know we we are taking on a monumental task here. So I\u0026#8217;m immensely proud of that team. And you know we we have I think we\u0026#8217;re 45 people right now, and and we\u0026#8217;re we\u0026#8217;re growing.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e44:26.83\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\num so Any engineers out there were also offering a $5,000 bonus. If you refer somebody to us, I\u0026#8217;ll just kind of put that plug out there. um but yeah Yeah, just a great team that, you know, the number of things that we have to get across, and I can tell you every four months I have a new set of problems. You know, people love to ask me, what\u0026#8217;s what\u0026#8217;s holding us back? What\u0026#8217;s our main problem? And I\u0026#8217;m like, I can tell you what my main problem is today, but I can almost promise you that even in four months it\u0026#8217;s going to be a ah different a different, quote unquote, main problem.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e45:04.51\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\num But you know what, every single time the team has come at it and and gotten through it and and resolved, whatever that block is. So that that\u0026#8217;s what I\u0026#8217;m most proud of. In terms of the next development phase, i mean We\u0026#8217;ve spent a lot of time and energy in proving out the base technology. um We are you know basically about to ship our first engines to the Army um for their testing. We\u0026#8217;ll be shipping later this year our first gen sets to the Army for their testing. So we\u0026#8217;re we\u0026#8217;re kind of at this inflection point right now where the technology is really getting a good foundation and now we need to cross into the next\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e45:49.55\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nstage of of getting stuff into production. So that\u0026#8217;s that\u0026#8217;s the next phase, and that\u0026#8217;s that\u0026#8217;s right right at the inflection point of of where we are right now.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e45:57.74\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nCool. Fantastic. Very best of luck with that. um\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e46:02.03\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nAppreciate it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e46:02.10\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAs for my questions, is there anything else you\u0026#8217;d like to add that we haven\u0026#8217;t haven\u0026#8217;t touched on or mentioned? Do you think it\u0026#8217;s important?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e46:07.16\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nNo, I think i think we we covered a lot of ground here. I mean, ultimately, you know we we have a smaller, lighter, more efficient engine platform, really innovative approach to it and a fantastic team. So um you know were we\u0026#8217;re we\u0026#8217;re always happy to connect with with with people that are interested in the in the technology and and appreciate this this opportunity here to to chat with you.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e46:34.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely. Our pleasure. and but With that, Ben, thank you for your time, Alec. That was genuinely very interesting. Thank you.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e46:40.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlexander Shkolnik\u003cbr /\u003e\nAwesome, thank you.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eThat concludes this episode of Lexicon.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eThank you all for tuning in and being our guest today.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eFollow our social media channels for the latest science and technology news. Also, don’t forget to subscribe to IE+ for premium insights and exclusive content!\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eGoodbye for now.\u003c/p\u003e\n","episode_number":"73","sponsor_image":null,"sponsor_name":null,"sponsor_url":null,"hosts":[{"name":"Christopher McFadden","title":"Host","biography":"\u003cp\u003eChristopher graduated from Cardiff University in 2004 with a Masters Degree in Geology. Since then, he has worked exclusively within the Built Environment, Occupational Health and Safety and Environmental Consultancy industries. He is a qualified and accredited Energy Consultant, Green Deal Assessor and Practitioner member of IEMA. Chris’s main interests range from Science and Engineering, Military and Ancient History to Politics and Philosophy.\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/avatars/XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","title":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","name":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","description":"N/A","alt_text":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","reference":null}}],"speakers":[{"name":"Dr. Alexander Shkolnik","title":"Co-founder and CEO of LiquidPiston","biography":"\u003cp\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/alecshkolnik\"\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eDr. Alexander Shkolnik\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/a\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003e is co-founder and CEO of LiquidPiston, where he provides operational, strategic, and technical oversight toward developing and commercializing a new type of advanced rotary engine.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eDr. Shkolnik holds degrees in neuroscience, computer science, and math. He also has a PhD from MIT’s Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory (CSAIL), where he studied high-dimensional motion planning for legged robots. Alexander received an NSF Graduate Research Fellowship and continued as a postdoctoral researcher at MIT before starting and joining \u003ca href=\"https://www.liquidpiston.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eLiquidPiston\u003c/a\u003e full-time. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eAlexander has 63 patents issued or pending and has authored over 25 peer-reviewed journal and conference publications.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/alex.png","title":"alex.png","name":"alex.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"alex.png","reference":null}}],"introductions":"\u003cp\u003eToday, we sat down with \u003ca href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/alecshkolnik\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eAlexander Shkolnik\u003c/a\u003e, co-founder and CEO of LiquidPiston, to explore how revolutionary engine designs reshape power generation.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eFrom military-grade innovations to multi-fuel versatility, Alexander shares insights into solving real-world challenges with \u003ca href=\"https://www.liquidpiston.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eLiquidPiston’s\u003c/a\u003e cutting-edge X-Engine.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eJoin us as we dive into the future of energy, exploring how compact, efficient engines could transform industries and redefine what’s possible in power technology.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eAlso, don’t forget to subscribe to \u003ca href=\"https://interestingengineering.com/subscribe\"\u003eIE+\u003c/a\u003e for premium insights and exclusive content!\u003c/p\u003e\n","host_introductions":null,"speakers_introductions":null,"player_code":"","publish_date":"2025-01-23T14:55:04+00:00","publish_date_detail":"Jan 23, 2025 09:55 AM EST","status":1,"page_title":"From vodka to hydrogen: exploring LiquidPiston’s revolutionary X-Engine","keywords":"X-engine","description":"","seo_title":"From vodka to hydrogen: exploring LiquidPiston’s revolutionary X-Engine - Interesting Engineering","og_title":"From vodka to hydrogen: exploring LiquidPiston’s revolutionary X-Engine - Interesting Engineering","og_image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-23.png","title":"1-23.png","name":"1-23.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"1-23.png","reference":null},"og_url":null,"og_type":null,"main_image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-23.png","title":"1-23.png","name":"1-23.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"1-23.png","reference":null}},{"title":"AI's Energy Crisis: Innovations Shaping the Future of Computing","abstract":"From CMU research to industry leader: How Efficient Computer revolutionizes chip efficiency for real-world AI and edge computing.","slug":"ais-energy-crisis-innovations-shaping-the-future-of-computing","transcript":"\u003cp\u003eWelcome to today’s episode of Lexicon! I’m Christopher McFadden, contributing writer for Interesting Engineering.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eToday, we’re joined by Brandon Lucia, CEO of Efficient Computer and professor at Carnegie Mellon University, to explore how energy-efficient chips are reshaping the tech landscape.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eFrom AI to space exploration, Brandon shares insights into solving real-world challenges with groundbreaking processor design and unparalleled efficiency.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eJoin us as we dive into the future of computing and discover how energy efficiency could unlock new frontiers in technology and sustainability.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eLevel up your knowledge with IE+! Subscribe today to access exclusive premium articles enriched with expert insights, and enjoy members-only technical newsletters designed to keep you ahead in technology and science. Subscribe now!\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:00.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon, thanks for joining us. How are you today?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:03.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nah Yeah, thanks. it\u0026#8217;s ah It\u0026#8217;s great to be here. I\u0026#8217;m really interested to be talking to you about what we\u0026#8217;re doing at ah at a fishing computer.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:10.02\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nGreat. ah You\u0026#8217;re welcome to join us. and Can you, for our audience\u0026#8217;s benefit, can you tell us a little bit about yourself please?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:17.21\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah Yeah, so I\u0026#8217;m a CEO and co-founder. at Efficient and for the last 10 years been a professor at Carnegie Mellon University. i I\u0026#8217;ve had about a 20 year career in computer hardware, computer software, um and energy efficient and resource constrained computing. I can tell you more about what that means. Been looking at basically the hardest problems in designing computer systems where you don\u0026#8217;t have enough energy, you have to fit into a small form factor, things like that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:47.44\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:47.95\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd, you know, from that research, from that last decade of research, we\u0026#8217;ve been doing it at Carnegie Mellon, where we were looking at some of those really hard problems, especially in energy constrained computing. um We developed the tech that is sort of underlying ah foundational technology behind what we\u0026#8217;re doing at efficient\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:05.50\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nGreat, great stuff. Right then, building on that then. So what inspired you to focus on energy efficient, pardon me, energy efficient computing, and how does this align with the tech industry\u0026#8217;s broader challenges today?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:18.01\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, so there\u0026#8217;s actually this kind of an an interesting anecdote that goes with that, um you know, a long long time ago now it\u0026#8217;s, it\u0026#8217;s the the better part of that decade that I just mentioned. we were We were at CMU. It was me and and Nathan Beckman, another of our co-founders here at Efficient, and Graham Gobieski, who was then our PhD student. He\u0026#8217;s now our CTO at Efficient. And we were looking at some research problems at that time. And and one of the research problems that we had started looking at was, how do you make computer systems that and don\u0026#8217;t have a battery?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:50.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so we we started looking at this problem. It\u0026#8217;s so it\u0026#8217;s a bit of ah a niche, but it\u0026#8217;s a very interesting niche where you try to find, you know how do you energy optimize the power system? How do you energy optimize the computing part of the system and software and so forth. We started building these systems and you know we were doing, it was a long time ago now, we were doing machine learning on devices that didn\u0026#8217;t have a battery. Before there was even you know this thing called TinyML, we were going trying to shoehorn Lynette into those devices.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:15.60\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd what we found is, as we wanted to do more and more computing on the device, which by the way is a good idea because it cuts out the need to use the radio, which is a big energy hog, um then then you ah you end up getting a kind of energy bottleneck related to computing on the device.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:31.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\num And we got frustrated by this. We wanted to do more and we ended up ah only really being able to fit you know on ah on a battery list device 500 milliseconds of computing at a time. And then we were we were storing energy in little capacitors and our capacitors would run out of energy. And so what was frustrating was that the The reason that was so short is the architecture of the the chips that we were using on these systems was was really inefficient. And so we had this realization that we\u0026#8217;ve been doing computer architecture for lots of but with lots of other goals in mind for for i mean literally almost two decades at that point, Nathan and I had been at least.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:06.33\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nand And we realized, like, this is an architecture problem. What needs to change is what\u0026#8217;s inside the chip. And so now at that point, we we gave ourselves this, I mean, it was, again, this is going back eight years, like this sort of playful ideological goal, which was, let\u0026#8217;s do a clean slate redesign of the architecture. Let\u0026#8217;s let\u0026#8217;s start from scratch. And at every juncture where there is a design decision to be made, we make the design decision, which is the most energy efficient.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:33.51\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat is not what like the chip industry has done for a long time. The chip industry has done a lot of amazing things for efficiency, for performance. But a lot of times, what you see is optimizations that improve performance by you know you get an additional incremental 15% performance improvement, and you have an incremental 25% power cost or something. So we we at that point, we started on this mission, which there\u0026#8217;s a you know ah ah very interesting interstitial period, and it it ends with founding efficient.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:03.01\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nand taking this new architecture that we developed and doing advanced development and commercialization. And that\u0026#8217;s where we are now um bringing this to market bringing this architecture to market in the product that we developed at at Efficient.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:14.98\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand Fantastic. So yeah, traditionally it\u0026#8217;s kind of brute force power to get more stuff done, but you you\u0026#8217;ve taken it from a different angle. That\u0026#8217;s that\u0026#8217;s interesting. um So some some are concerned with the risks of ah risks associated with over-specialisation in AI processes. So how could this limit future technological advancements?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:37.90\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, so I think you know specialization is in the toolbox of a computer architect. a very useful tool. Specialization is something we we we can\u0026#8217;t avoid, but it\u0026#8217;s not the only tool out there. And in a lot of cases, it\u0026#8217;s not sufficient to solve the whole problem. So the way that I like to think about it is this, you know, we talk to customers and we say, you know, tell us about your computing needs. That\u0026#8217;s the first, it\u0026#8217;s where we we always start. We just want to understand what are you trying to run today? What do you want to run tomorrow? Tell us about your needs, right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:08.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd when we talk to those customers, we get into typically some form of AI. you know Sometimes it\u0026#8217;s people that deeply understand machine learning. Sometimes it\u0026#8217;s people and it sounds like maybe their boss\u0026#8217;s boss told them, you you know sprinkle some AI pixie dust on this application and make it go, whatever. you know So we have a ah different set of a different set of people we might talk to at different companies. But when we talk to people about these things,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:33.54\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nWhat they say to us is, well sure, a big part of it is machine learning. A big part of our AI application is machine learning. And that\u0026#8217;s what\u0026#8217;s handled by these specialized AI processors. And those specialized AI processors, they actually work great for the part of your AI application that\u0026#8217;s actually doing machine learning. So you know the geekier way to say that is like dense linear algebra. um you know tree I know that\u0026#8217;s a little, it\u0026#8217;s from from a math textbook, but that that sort of thing. and and convolutional neural networks and matrix multiply.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:04.03\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:05.62\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nthat\u0026#8217;s That\u0026#8217;s what fits well inside of these AI accelerator chips. What you don\u0026#8217;t hear about as often, but we do hear about very often, is the other part of the application, which is doing you know data cleanup, regularization, data format conversions, sort of what we might think of as classical digital signal processing algorithms.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:31.44\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd those add up to a substantial fraction of like a real world AI application, especially if you look at physically embodied computing, like edge computing, sensors, things like that. So you know imagine something getting deployed to physical infrastructure. You have sensors. You\u0026#8217;re collecting real data from the real world. It\u0026#8217;s messy out there. So you bring that data in. You need to clean the data up. You need to get it in the format that your ML model expects. And once that\u0026#8217;s done, then you push it through the ML model, and you can get some on-device AI results.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:01.54\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo when we talk to customers like I was saying before, they\u0026#8217;ll tell us, you know, it might be 50-50. And if it\u0026#8217;s 50-50 and you go and use your ML chip to solve the problem, even if your ML chip is very fast and very efficient, let\u0026#8217;s say it makes the time and energy go to zero for that part. Well, you\u0026#8217;re still left with the other half, right? And that means the best you can do end-to-end is two times better.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:24.95\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nbecause you\u0026#8217;re just going to have what you started with. And this is this is actually like one of the sort of iron laws of computer architecture. It\u0026#8217;s called Amdahl\u0026#8217;s law. it hast It\u0026#8217;s so important it has a name. um And we\u0026#8217;re we\u0026#8217;re sort of motivated at efficient by Amdahl\u0026#8217;s law for efficiency. we We\u0026#8217;re able to support, on our architecture, we\u0026#8217;re able to support the entire application, all of the you know data ingestion, data cleaning, regularization, DSP, all that stuff I described. We handle that very efficiently and with great performance. And we also handle the machine learning dense linear algebra part really efficiently.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:59.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so we we capture the entire application, and by doing so, we\u0026#8217;re actually able to give much higher end-to-end benefits in terms of efficiency. That\u0026#8217;s really key to what we\u0026#8217;re doing at Efficient, actually.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:09.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo forgive forgive my ignorance, then. So the ah chips that you develop, a bit like a hardwired kind of algorithm on the chip. So it\u0026#8217;s not like a computer chips trying to run a software.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:22.45\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nah do you you mean Do you mean our chip or the these other ML chips?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:22.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand submit Or these ML chips, the specialized chips, that is that to kind of reduce the demand on the chip to to run, if you like, energy-wise.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:30.12\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:37.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, yeah, yeah. so So the deal with specialization is this. um it\u0026#8217;s a It\u0026#8217;s a good way to optimize because what you do when you specialize your hardware is you tailor the hardware to only support, like let\u0026#8217;s say, one algorithm or one category of algorithms.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:50.49\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:52.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd what you can do is take out all of the little, there\u0026#8217;s like these fidgety little bits all around in your chip. if it\u0026#8217;s configurable, if it\u0026#8217;s programmable, and it\u0026#8217;s basically the programmability bits.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:03.29\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nright\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:05.93\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd if you look at the way that CPUs have done programmability for like 75 years, it\u0026#8217;s like back to the origins of like the von Neumann architecture, like 1950s.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:18.66\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s been the same way for a long time. And those configurability bits, those programmability bits, those are are quite expensive, actually. you know One way to quantify it, is this is like just ah something to imagine in your mind. If you\u0026#8217;re going 2 gigahertz, then 2 billion times per second.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:36.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou are fetching another instruction out of a little memory sitting next to your processor. That\u0026#8217;s only one part of the overhead, but that\u0026#8217;s so expensive. Every single cycle, you\u0026#8217;re going and pulling something.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:45.82\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:47.35\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt doesn\u0026#8217;t matter what you do. If you do it 2 billion times per second, it adds up really quickly. And that ends up being pure overhead. So specialization is a way of sort of eliminating that overhead.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:00.93\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\ndoing a single algorithm, like specializing for like convolution, if you want to do convolutional neural nets, you eliminate all of the ability to do configuration. And so you can only ever do convolution. And that\u0026#8217;s what a lot of the and ML chips do. And they eliminate all that overhead. But then they have no programmability story. So what\u0026#8217;s cool about what we\u0026#8217;re doing at Efficient is we\u0026#8217;ve gotten rid of the von Neumann overheads, but we haven\u0026#8217;t over-specialized in the way that some of the ML chips have done. So we retain the ability to do programmability and configurability, but we do it in a way that avoids that every single cycle while your computation is running overhead. We eliminate that overhead because we have a new architecture that it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s just built differently.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:45.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay, great. Again, you kind of answered this, but um why do you believe general purpose CPUs are better suited for addressing AI\u0026#8217;s evolving demands than specialized processes?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:56.14\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, I mean, the the boiled down way that I say it, we were at CES this week and it was it was really fun talking to people about this the whole time that we were there. And you know part of our graphics there, you know you have a lot of people walking by and different things capture people\u0026#8217;s attention, but one that was sort of a repeat in capturing people\u0026#8217;s attention is we have this sign up and this is something I really you know believe at my core from research and then from my experience running efficiency.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:21.70\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAI in the way that people see it today, AI is more than machine learning. It\u0026#8217;s as simple as that. There\u0026#8217;s just, there\u0026#8217;s more to the story. And so if you use specialized chips, you are only doing like part of AI per se. There\u0026#8217;s the rest of the sort of real world aspects to it. And to capture all of the application, if you care about efficiency, if you care about performance for entire real world applications, you have to capture the rest of that stuff more than is just the machine learning you have to do front-end processing and then back-end analytics processing too. So I think generality is really the only way to do that. There\u0026#8217;s a second thing about this too, which is another kind of big idea around efficient. And that is programmers don\u0026#8217;t like to change the way they do things.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e12:08.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nPeople have done things for a long time. They want to keep using the languages they like to use. So you know if you\u0026#8217;re an embedded developer and you\u0026#8217;re doing sensor development for let\u0026#8217;s like space systems or something like that, you\u0026#8217;re probably a pretty accustomed to the way you do things. Maybe you do some start in MATLAB, and then you move your code into C, and then and then you can go and optimize your code in C to run on whatever processor you\u0026#8217;re going to be using. That might be a very familiar flow.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e12:31.56\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nWell, if you\u0026#8217;re going to use an ML chip, then you have to basically scrap your code and make sure it fits into the the idiom of whatever your ML chip does. And usually you have to write some code that sort of patches up between different API calls that are are mapped into that hardware. And so that\u0026#8217;s a being you know fairly challenging to to port an application over. It\u0026#8217;s not impossible. People do it. um But it takes some you know learning on the part of the developers, some friction. There\u0026#8217;s new tools and libraries and things.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:00.11\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nbut One of the things that we\u0026#8217;re really enthusiastic about around Efficient is providing ah the same developer experience. And we want that to be like a like a very pleasant, delightful developer experience for everyone that uses one of our chips. And so what what we\u0026#8217;re after is minimal to no change.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:20.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nto your source code. So if you\u0026#8217;re an embedded developer and you\u0026#8217;re going to take your C code and you want to just deploy it on one of our chips, our compiler will ingest your code. We use C and C++. plus plus you know the The lingua franca for embedded and ML today is TensorFlow Lite. And so we have TensorFlow Lite. That\u0026#8217;s just part of what we support. But those are the the the ones that come to mind immediately. you know If you\u0026#8217;re a developer doing embedded, that\u0026#8217;s what you\u0026#8217;re used to using. And it\u0026#8217;s general. It\u0026#8217;s like general purpose languages. or It\u0026#8217;s these frameworks that are fairly general.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:49.74\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nYou don\u0026#8217;t want to have to rewrite everything in terms of specialized primitives where you\u0026#8217;re sort of contorting your application to fit what the system can do. So we\u0026#8217;re we\u0026#8217;re really ah we put a lot of of priority on you know focusing on the developer and giving them the ability to use the languages and the systems and and things that they use already so that there\u0026#8217;s like a low friction path to using our ships.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:11.76\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nFantastic. That\u0026#8217;s going to help with the uptake of yeah your technology as well, right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:16.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, we think so. We think it\u0026#8217;s going to be good for developers that, you know like I said, a lot of developers don\u0026#8217;t don\u0026#8217;t like to make changes.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:21.47\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:22.58\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nThey don\u0026#8217;t want to change how they do things because they\u0026#8217;ve learned. you know you know I don\u0026#8217;t blame them either. It\u0026#8217;s like if I run into a developer who\u0026#8217;s doing some algorithm development for an embedded system and I\u0026#8217;m like, yeah, it\u0026#8217;s great.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:33.14\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut the only thing is you have to become a digital designer and write Verilog. It\u0026#8217;s like they\u0026#8217;re they\u0026#8217;re changing jobs at that point. So you know that\u0026#8217;s why I think you know FPGA is they\u0026#8217;re another example of an alternative platform.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:39.64\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:45.50\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s literally what they\u0026#8217;re asking the developer to do is is is basically change jobs, become a digital designer, and then you can use our hardware. I don\u0026#8217;t think that works for a lot of people, and it doesn\u0026#8217;t work for me personally.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:57.69\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, maps fair enough. Fair enough. um So building on that. And so there\u0026#8217;s often a trade-off between energy efficiency and performance, which we\u0026#8217;ve touched on. So how does a efficient computer overcome this challenge with its fabric processor architecture?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:12.20\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, so the fabric is designed for efficiency. And and the way to think about the fabric, i\u0026#8217;m going ah I\u0026#8217;m going to paint a word picture here. I hope this isn\u0026#8217;t going to get too complicated.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:18.33\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThere we go.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:20.82\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nit\u0026#8217;s It\u0026#8217;s fairly simple in the abstraction. So the the the architecture that we\u0026#8217;ve developed, the way that you could picture it is there\u0026#8217;s a ah little grid of squares, like just you know picture a rectangle filled in with all squares.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:32.98\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd each of those squares can do an operation. It\u0026#8217;s not a core. It\u0026#8217;s like less than a core. So it\u0026#8217;s not like a prize it\u0026#8217;s like an arm core or something. it can do a single operation. And so what our what our system does is our compiler will take your program and it will digest it down into what what we call a data flow graph.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:52.61\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:53.16\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd each of the operations in your program is represented in that data flow graph. And then there are, you can think of arrows connecting those together. And the arrow means that one operation when it runs, maybe it\u0026#8217;s like an addition of two numbers, something like that, it produces a result that goes and acts as the input, some downstream operation.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:13.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd we call that data flow from one operation to the next one.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:14.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:16.90\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo that grid of squares again, we take each of the operations and we pin an operation from your program to each of the squares. And we have a very efficient network that connects up the squares so that we can implement the data flow.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:33.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd what that does is exposes a very parallel execution of the program across the fabric. It also happens to be extremely efficient, because rather than repeatedly fetching instructions, we compile your program to this representation and then pin the instructions in place. And they stay there, and they run for a long time. So we get rid of fetch completely. We get rid of instruction decoding, except at the beginning of running a dataflow graph. And data movement.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:02.16\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nis really fine tuned. It goes from one operation to another operation directly with with very little overhead. We\u0026#8217;re not going indirectly through memory structures. So that\u0026#8217;s how we get efficiency. And because of all that parallelism, you have the entire data flow graph mapped in parallel onto our architecture.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:20.49\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd all that parallelism gives you a big boost in performance if your application has a lot of intrinsic parallelism. And so together with that, we get a sort of a good blend of, you know, extremely high efficiency. When we look at other von Neumann CPUs in the market, we\u0026#8217;ve seen up to 166 times improvement.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:39.95\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nin energy consumption against competitive, industry-leading, low-power, embedded CPUs. I mean, that\u0026#8217;s a that\u0026#8217;s a sea change in efficiency. that that\u0026#8217;s like ah ah ah If you\u0026#8217;re looking at battery life, that\u0026#8217;s an extension of 10 to 100 times your battery life.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:54.01\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOh, yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:56.94\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAt the same time, we see a performance improvement because we\u0026#8217;re exposing more parallelism than like a sequential von Neumann processor would get if you\u0026#8217;re doing an embedded CPU-type implementation.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:09.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo they act a bit like nodes then, do they? Basically, in effect.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:13.02\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, so ah yeah each of the we we call them tiles. So each of the tiles that make up that grid, um it\u0026#8217;s essentially autonomous.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:17.29\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\num tough\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:21.52\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd on each clock tick, a tile decides, do I have all the inputs to my operation? And if it does, then it can fire the operation. And so things are mostly decoupled. It\u0026#8217;s actually this it\u0026#8217;s this really beautifully elegant abstraction for computation.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:35.20\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nThis is our architecture, this data flow model. um And it\u0026#8217;s this this beautifully elegant abstraction for computation where operations proceed as soon as they can, as soon as their inputs are available.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:42.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:47.60\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s computation the way it should be, rather than being artificially sequenced by the von Neumann execution pipeline. So you know we see a good balance of of efficiency um and performance. you know We have basically category defining efficiency and and great performance. Comparable or better to peers in the market.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:04.69\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand Fantastic. okay and how How long can it retain these sections of the code that it stores? Is it kind of set?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:11.45\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s a good point.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:12.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSorry, gone.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:13.92\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s a good question. So the the way that this works, if you zoom in another level, is our compiler looks at your program. And now your program, it might be, you know, might have multiple different functions you\u0026#8217;re calling. It might have multiple loops in a nest. It might have multiple modules. And the compiler can do some reasoning about One way of thinking about it is, which instructions will tend to fire at the same time as which other instructions?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:39.55\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:40.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nWhich instructions sort of group together? And that might be, if you\u0026#8217;re doing you know some nested loops, it might be the entire loop nest. So if you\u0026#8217;re doing for i, for j, for k, for whatever, you know that whole chunk, all of those instructions are going to be firing together and probably sharing values and doing some computation.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:56.83\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so it can do the analysis and figure that out. And it creates little partitions in the program. Each of them is a data flow graph that is sort of independently constructed. um And that becomes a configuration for the fabric. And so the fabric will start out, um and it runs the first configuration. And the the fabric is is very it\u0026#8217;s very clever, because what it does is when it realizes that it\u0026#8217;s done or almost done with part of a computation, in a pipelined way, it can start ah configuring the next piece of the computation, sometimes before the previous one is even finished.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:31.95\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so the the computation, essentially with that pipeline configuration, you have zero cycle delay between consecutive portions of your program. So they sort of run hand over hand with one another um in ah in a really general purpose way. So when we say this is a general purpose processor, it\u0026#8217;s not like you know this is a great accelerator tightly coupled to a CPU. It\u0026#8217;s not like this is a new kind of CPU. This is a really new kind of general purpose processor that runs according to this data flow architecture model that we\u0026#8217;ve developed.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:01.90\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nand it\u0026#8217;ll run in any code you throw at\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:04.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand Sounds reallyli really slick.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:05.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nand this video but yes\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:07.16\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nReally slick. Great. um So what are some real world applications where the efficient processor has had the most significant impact and how do you envisage its broader adoption?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:21.80\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, also a good question. I\u0026#8217;d like to say it this way. like Since we\u0026#8217;ve started doing advanced development and commercialization, this is the last last three years of efficient, we\u0026#8217;ve been doing those things. um After nearly 10 years of research at CMU, we\u0026#8217;ve been getting a look at the real world. Where do these devices go? Where do chips go when you put them in you know in sensors or in edge computing applications? And there\u0026#8217;s a few areas where I\u0026#8217;ve seen a lot of traction.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:46.12\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nThe biggest areas are in infrastructure sensing, infrastructure intelligence, enterprise scale, IoT installations and sensors, those sorts of things. In space and defense applications, we have a lot of traction with space.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:59.59\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nI i would love to talk about space if you have if you have questions about that. um big Big interest of mine, in in my capacity at CMU, I still maintain a small space program that we run there.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:09.86\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, well, since we\u0026#8217;re on the subject, let\u0026#8217;s get on with space then.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:11.07\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s really a very cool use case for efficient computing. um and another area is sort of health and wearable devices. So those are three major areas that we\u0026#8217;ve been looking at. I\u0026#8217;d i\u0026#8217;d be happy to talk about any of those in some more depth.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:27.77\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, yeah, yeah. so So I\u0026#8217;m glad you asked.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:28.76\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nit applications graph\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:31.36\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo in space, the the most important thing and in a lot of space missions is that the defense world calls it swap, which is size, weight, power and power.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:38.57\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nright.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:40.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd there, you just need to basically minimize. You want to have the lowest power, the the smallest amount of junk you need to launch. You want it to be lightweight. And when you think about doing you know swap minimization,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:52.29\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nthat that corresponds to launching fewer batteries in a satellite and it corresponds to smaller solar panels in the satellite. Those are major sources of complexity. you know For example, if you\u0026#8217;re doing CubeSats and you can go from a deployable solar array to a purely surface mounted solar array and do the same job, that\u0026#8217;s a complexity decrease, it\u0026#8217;s a cost savings, it it minimizes the risk of your, it reduces the risk of your mission because now you\u0026#8217;re not relying on some deployable.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:19.28\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nThe way to do that is to decrease the energy consumption for whatever you\u0026#8217;re trying to do. so you know One of the things we\u0026#8217;ve looked at is doing Earth observation applications. There\u0026#8217;s a broad range of activities you can do with that, some on the defense side. You can do climate science. There\u0026#8217;s all sorts of really useful things, urban planning, smart cities, that you can support with satellites.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:39.90\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\njust using visual cameras and doing Earth observation. And so you think about what it takes to do that today. A lot of systems, you know people are envisioning, oh, we\u0026#8217;re going to launch three Jetsons inside of a 6U CubeSat. And we\u0026#8217;re going to use a camera that\u0026#8217;s going to have 30 centimeters per pixel. And we\u0026#8217;re going to transmit things down as quickly as we can. That\u0026#8217;s a huge energy hog. I mean, that\u0026#8217;s like tens of watts worth of embedded GPUs. and On top of that, you have the cost of communication. You have to nail it with communication, because if you miss your window, it could be 45 minutes before you get another communication window. So the space industry is learning. It\u0026#8217;s better to do a lot of processing on board because of that communication challenge. But you know the hardware, it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s like we\u0026#8217;re we\u0026#8217;re adapting. We\u0026#8217;re using what\u0026#8217;s available in the market. We\u0026#8217;re grabbing whatever whatever GPU or whatever fits in the box.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:33.62\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s kind of unsatisfying because that ups your power consumption. And for a CubeSat mission, that becomes the highest highest power consumer inside the box as your onboard compute. That\u0026#8217;s very unsatisfying because we can do that much more cheaply and we can do more with less.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:49.14\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd that means we can add capability to these satellites. So for efficient, one of the things we\u0026#8217;re looking at is, how do we take the DSP computation for the ah RF stack? How do we take the DSP for visual analysis of images and the machine learning part of those ah programs? there\u0026#8217;s There\u0026#8217;s often some fairly sophisticated back-end analytics that can involve you know sparsely encoded graph problems, things like that, on the data once you\u0026#8217;ve processed those sensor data inputs.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:16.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nA whole slew of things. Satellites do a lot of different kinds of computation. Control loops, for example. So you put all that together and the efficient chip handles those. That\u0026#8217;s what it\u0026#8217;s good at. It\u0026#8217;s like this diversity of applications, compute intensive, and that\u0026#8217;s the name of the game when you\u0026#8217;re in a satellite because you don\u0026#8217;t have easy access to communication to to offload.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:34.51\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo we\u0026#8217;re a great fit. I\u0026#8217;m super excited about the prospect of taking efficient silicon and you know in the next probably 12 to 24 months seeing something on orbit, seeing seeing efficient silicon on orbit. I can\u0026#8217;t talk specifically about how we\u0026#8217;re doing that, I\u0026#8217;d love to, but i\u0026#8217;m I\u0026#8217;m very excited about the prospect. We have a few different angles on that. It\u0026#8217;s a natural fit for the the technology that we\u0026#8217;ve developed because of the huge advantage we have in energy and power efficiency.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:02.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nFantastic. is As you were talking and I was envisaging them being used on sort of deep space probes or areas where there\u0026#8217;s limited, well, solar energy is limited or weak. It could be ah applications there, right? I presume. i presume\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:18.67\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely, yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:19.11\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:19.64\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nI mean, one area where I\u0026#8217;m fairly excited, this is something that that we\u0026#8217;ve looked at through the space program at CMU that I mentioned, is doing visual navigation for lunar missions.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:32.12\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo very relative navigation for lunar missions where there\u0026#8217;s not good infrastructure on the moon because why would there be, right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:32.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:40.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd and so you can use terrestrial infrastructure, but that\u0026#8217;s very far away. you can use the Deep Space Network, but that\u0026#8217;s you know there\u0026#8217;s a high cost associated with that, and it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s difficult to get access, and there\u0026#8217;s a lot of issues. It\u0026#8217;s great when it works, but you know just you don\u0026#8217;t always have access to that. So instead, you can do terrain-relative navigation, or you can do visual-only attitude and orbit determination in a lunar environment. That\u0026#8217;s a very exciting application. There\u0026#8217;s a lot of you know downstream use cases there in terms of lunar exploration,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:08.13\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd this is just one example. There, when you\u0026#8217;re on when you\u0026#8217;re on the far side of the moon, you\u0026#8217;re completely in the dark. So power efficiency is going to be the most important thing.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:14.44\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:16.83\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nYou need to conserve all of the energy that you have for the instruments that you\u0026#8217;re running and for the computation to process the data from those instruments. Otherwise, it\u0026#8217;s a blackout. There are satellites. We\u0026#8217;ve seen satellite examples.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:28.14\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nlike I can\u0026#8217;t say specifically which ones again, but where you\u0026#8217;re at a 2% to 10% duty cycle, which means that between 90% and 98% of the time, your satellite just turned off. you can\u0026#8217;t support You can\u0026#8217;t support the power consumption to keep all your stuff turned on.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:38.92\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWell.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:42.39\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s very disappointing. So you know you make this thing more energy efficient and you can keep it on for substantially more than that. Even if the aspirational target is 50%, 30%, you\u0026#8217;re still you know substantially better off than than before.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:54.87\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nand And so this is the kind of things, like representative of the kind of potential in the technology that we\u0026#8217;ve developed. It\u0026#8217;s not just for the moon. There\u0026#8217;s plenty that we can do in, you know, LEO and closer to Earth applications, um looking down with instruments that can detect different spectra from RF to visual and everything in between.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:13.43\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo a lot of really exciting use cases, you know, in civilian defense all over all over the board.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:17.50\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah You could have big applications for drones as well, right? Especially in military or, as you said, civilian too, presumably.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:24.54\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah Yeah, I think that you know that\u0026#8217;s not an area where we\u0026#8217;re actually developing as much, except in as much as there\u0026#8217;s a similarity to the satellite use case. But if you\u0026#8217;re doing visual processing, you\u0026#8217;re in an energy constrained environment, you\u0026#8217;re similarly swapped um swap So really, the way to think about it is anywhere that you\u0026#8217;re you\u0026#8217;re highly swap constrained.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:32.06\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:42.83\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo if you\u0026#8217;re flying, absolutely. If you\u0026#8217;re launching something to orbit, absolutely. Another one is um wearable applications in civilian use cases, defense use cases.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:50.16\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nright. yeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:53.07\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\num You know, on the defense side of things, you hear these anecdotes and they\u0026#8217;re they\u0026#8217;re kind of frightening. It\u0026#8217;s like you have to carry around 35 pounds of batteries with you when you\u0026#8217;re you\u0026#8217;re hiking around. So imagine, you know, you got to go and and hike 10 miles to some location with 35 pounds of just the batteries, by the way. That\u0026#8217;s not even the real equipment. It\u0026#8217;s just the overhead. um You know, so that that probably varies by mission. But if we can decrease that to just 25 pounds.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:16.62\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nthen that makes a big difference. And so a lot of that energy is going into computation, communication. Those are the two things you\u0026#8217;re spending that energy doing. If we can take the computation part and we can decimate the energy cost, make it be 10% of what it is, make it be 1% of what it is by improving the efficiency, that\u0026#8217;s a clear benefit.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:34.41\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nI mean, if you look at it in the other perspective, if you have a smartwatch and you\u0026#8217;re limited in the battery life by the computation happening on the device. Now, it\u0026#8217;s not just computation. I know it\u0026#8217;s also communication, lots of other things, but if you just think about the computation part.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:48.87\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nIf you\u0026#8217;re lasting a day, two days with your smartwatch, maybe, you know, some, some devices you end up having to plug in every nine hours after you have some battery degradation over time. What if we extend that to a week? It\u0026#8217;s like you forget you have to charge it after a while. What if we extend it to a month? You forget, you completely forget that you have to charge it. It\u0026#8217;s a once a month thing. So it\u0026#8217;s really a game changer when you think about how the efficiency translates to like real world benefit for these kinds of applications.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:15.66\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah On the subject of wearables, Would it be possible in the future to to have like say a smartwatch? It look doesn\u0026#8217;t require obviously a battery, but it has it can get enough power from your movements to actually power itself with your kind of chip technology. Would that ever be possible?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:37.53\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nMaybe I can speculate. So in my in my career, I have looked at energy harvesting computer systems. At CMU, again, this is going back a few years, but we we developed a model of computing that\u0026#8217;s called intermittent computing. And the idea there is you compute when energy is available in the environment. And when there\u0026#8217;s no energy available, you sort of shut down and wait for more energy.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:57.81\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd with that kind of model, um it depends on what you\u0026#8217;re trying to do. But you can harvest you know even power sources as low as ambient radio waves in the environment. So if there\u0026#8217;s like a megawatt TV tower somewhere in your city, um you may, in some locations, be able to harvest enough energy from those radio waves to charge up a capacitor and then turn on a computer and drain the energy in the capacitor.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:22.31\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo I don\u0026#8217;t know if that\u0026#8217;s going to be a smartwatch exactly, because there\u0026#8217;s a lot of things you want your smartwatch to do.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:25.45\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:26.23\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nbut wearable sensors, wearable health sensors, or even here\u0026#8217;s here\u0026#8217;s another one. This is very exciting. Whether energy harvesting or not, environmental and infrastructure sensors. These things today, you have to go out and swap batteries all the time.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:38.84\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nImagine we have batteries in these devices and we improve the efficiency of computation to the point that you almost never want to communicate because computing on devices is so much more efficient.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:38.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:51.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo say we do that. Now we take the, you know, on on ah on a double A battery, running a machine learning workload on inefficient, we can last in the neighborhood of five to 10 years, five plus years. I\u0026#8217;ll say it depends on you know the the workload that you\u0026#8217;re trying to run on a single AA battery. So we supplement that with like, imagine supplementing that with energy harvesting um to make things last a bit longer And now you could be pushing a decade on a single deployment. Think about what that does for deploying environmental and infrastructure sensors. You want to go and, you know, listen for poachers or, you know, we\u0026#8217;ve come across applications that are like, listen, listen for wildfires or listen for chainsaws and protected forests or whatever. There\u0026#8217;s all ah sorts of applications. Infrastructure, like listen to the pipelines, listen to the power grid.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:39.84\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nYou can deploy these sensors, and and you\u0026#8217;re not upside down in terms of the OpEx. Because if you if you don\u0026#8217;t have the long battery life, then you\u0026#8217;re sending someone out to you know go and change batteries you know every minute of every day. So the OpEx math just doesn\u0026#8217;t work out. If you make the devices more efficient by improving the efficiency of computing, you make these applications possible for the first time. That\u0026#8217;s that\u0026#8217;s the change here. Efficiency isn\u0026#8217;t just an incremental improvement. it\u0026#8217;s like It unlocks this whole category of applications. It\u0026#8217;s like literally not possible today.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:09.90\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s what gets me so excited about these use cases.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:12.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s cool. I mean, if I had to be able to get there, you could have a position where a sensor\u0026#8217;s record sort is sensing something and it\u0026#8217;s getting energy from that, harvesting and energy from that, where it would never ever need to be a battery storage at all, it\u0026#8217;s because it\u0026#8217;s getting energy from what it\u0026#8217;s sensing.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:31.38\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nye Yeah, batteryless devices.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:33.68\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s its own purpose.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:36.48\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nYou can harvest energy from the same spectrum you\u0026#8217;re sensing and you can store up a little bit of energy in a capacitor. No need for a battery at all.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:43.70\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s incredible.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:43.90\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nI mean, there there\u0026#8217;s a world where the environmental sensors, that\u0026#8217;s the way they work. Put a small solar panel out there and basically then you\u0026#8217;re you\u0026#8217;re limited by the lifetime of the you know the solar panel.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:48.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, well yeah. Yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:52.94\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nYou\u0026#8217;re limited by the lifetime of whichever component fails first on your board. um That\u0026#8217;s a very interesting category of applications. Now, that\u0026#8217;s not front energy harvesting applications. That\u0026#8217;s not front and center for efficient yet.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:03.80\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut, you know, who knows, maybe that\u0026#8217;s the future of where these industrial infrastructure sensors go today. ah Typical installations need the reliability of something that\u0026#8217;s backed by a battery.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:14.90\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo what we do is.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:15.59\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nso\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:16.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\neliminate the need to burn up all your energy sending packets over Wi-Fi, you can compute locally. And you save just a huge amount of energy, 10 to 100 times battery life extension compared to you know other embedded low power CPUs. And I\u0026#8217;m talking about running the same code. You don\u0026#8217;t have to change your application. In fact, you can add features to your application, and you can do it in the way that you normally would. So it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s really, yeah, like I said, it\u0026#8217;s really game changing when you think about the efficiency affecting these applications in the real world.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:44.52\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely, yeah, let\u0026#8217;s blow my mind a bit. um Right, so um what have you found have been the biggest challenges in developing and scaling efficient computer and how have you overcome them?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:56.90\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. So I think if you talk to 10 startup founders, you\u0026#8217;ll get 10 different answers. we not um for For us, I think that that we have we have an amazing team. We have a group of people.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:09.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\ni feel so lucky and and the people that we found are just absolutely amazing at the job that they do and it\u0026#8217;s been through a lot of hard work and a lot of you know grit and network effect to find the right team to do the work that we\u0026#8217;re doing. That\u0026#8217;s a challenge anywhere but you know we we have a pretty specialist skill set and and I think yeah the team that we have is is really just absolutely crushing it. That\u0026#8217;s one of the hard parts. Building the right team, definitely one of the hard parts.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:35.67\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd I think we\u0026#8217;re doing it amazingly well. Like I said, our team is, they\u0026#8217;re just absolutely fantastic group of engineers. They know hardware, they know software. Many people on the team know the stack from the very top to the very bottom, including the business side. It\u0026#8217;s very cool. I love working with the people that we have at Fission.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:52.36\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nah The other side of it is just the the sort of course realities of going and and bringing a silicon semiconductor product to market. There\u0026#8217;s there\u0026#8217;s just a lot of work and it\u0026#8217;s a lot of you know it\u0026#8217;s difficult. It\u0026#8217;s difficult to build something that\u0026#8217;s going to be useful in the real world. um and it\u0026#8217;s something that you know i I have a career in the academic world and it\u0026#8217;s easy to sort of paper over some of these real world concerns when you\u0026#8217;re on the academic side of things.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:19.36\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nUm, to the point that maybe it\u0026#8217;s a little bit, it\u0026#8217;s a little bit frustrating to see work that does that. But when you get to bringing a product to market, you face those realities and there\u0026#8217;s a lot to learn because some of these are really fundamental problems. And, and some of these are things that are just, they\u0026#8217;re so essentially important to.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:35.47\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nmaking this valuable in in the real world, making this valuable to actual customers. So you know getting your arms around some of these these slippery real world issues like specific design constraints, implementation constraints, and coordinating all that along the way, that\u0026#8217;s that\u0026#8217;s one of the hard things too, just making that all come together. Now, something that is fairly unique about Efficient, and I think we\u0026#8217;ve done really well, and this this would be one of the hard parts, except again, I think we have the right team to do this,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:03.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nis we\u0026#8217;re a hardware company and a software company and I think a great recipe to face plant as a hardware company is to neglect software even for a minute. I think software and especially for a general purpose computing hardware, software is just so so critically important. um Our compiler team has has been you know working From the very beginning, some of our first hires were in the compiler area. We\u0026#8217;ve been developing some of the abstractions that ended up in the compiler for a better part of a decade starting all the way back in the research. That software ecosystem, that\u0026#8217;s what makes the hardware actually go. This is, I think, one of the biggest challenges in general for trying to field a general purpose semiconductor product is getting the software story right.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:49.23\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\num I think that our team is just absolutely world-class and is crushing it at doing that, um but that ain\u0026#8217;t easy either. I would say that\u0026#8217;s something that if if ah if you\u0026#8217;re out there thinking of doing a hardware company, make sure that you have your software story sorted out.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:03.27\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nah Fantastic. All right. So the next question in with ah AI evolving rapidly, what do you think the next major shift in computing technology will be and how is efficient computer preparing for it?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:16.23\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo this will sound familiar from what I\u0026#8217;ve been talking about, but I think that you know we\u0026#8217;re in the era of of heavy specialization. um We\u0026#8217;ve seen a lot of efforts go into designing.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:28.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nfixed function accelerators, highly specialized accelerators, and accelerators that work for you know one part of AI, again, like AI writ large. There\u0026#8217;s a lot more to it than just ML. And I think that what we\u0026#8217;re going to see you know in the next five years, maybe 10 years, is a shift to look at what are all the other hard parts of computation. you know We nailed it on matrix multiply, like hooray.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:55.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nand and we we you know Mission accomplished on matrix multiply. I think we got it, guys. But I don\u0026#8217;t think that everything begins and ends with matrix multiply. I don\u0026#8217;t think everything begins and ends with convolution. Like I was saying before, when we talk to customers, they tell us a very different story. it\u0026#8217;s you know A lot of it is we need to do you know irregular analytics and DSP and all these other other computations. so I think what we\u0026#8217;re going to see is a pendulum swing away from hyper specialization.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:24.23\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd when we start to do that, I think the winner is going to be the one that is thinking the most about energy. And that\u0026#8217;s self-serving. I appreciate the fact that you know our mission is generality and efficiency. um But I think that it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s the natural consequence of swinging back from specialization because specialization eliminates all of that configurability and it it drives basically performance and energy to the maximum and it eliminates configurability. If you come back the other way and now you want to support a broader array of computations,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:51.94\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou\u0026#8217;re either bringing together many accelerators. I don\u0026#8217;t think that\u0026#8217;s the right model because that increases complexity and it will increase energy consumption because you have to move data between those accelerators. So what you\u0026#8217;re left with is the third option and this is what efficient is doing. I think that this will be the the problem of the future is energy efficiency and the generality to avoid the trap of over specialization.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:17.44\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nI think that\u0026#8217;s going to be the the problem for the next five years, maybe 10 years, maybe beyond. Energy is going to be the only thing that matters. We\u0026#8217;re seeing this in the data center. like This is becoming clear in the data center as people are talking about you know scratching their head and saying, do we need a new nuclear power plant to go with this data center? I mean, that is that is so shocking to hear that kind of speculation that that\u0026#8217;s what we\u0026#8217;re going to need in the future.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:41.23\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nWhether that\u0026#8217;s true or not, i I don\u0026#8217;t know. Maybe we need to scale up to the point to support all of the applications we need to run where that that ends up being a good idea. um that That seems extravagant and enormous, but maybe that\u0026#8217;s what\u0026#8217;s actually required. but i think especially as you you know let\u0026#8217;s Let\u0026#8217;s move out of the data center.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:57.86\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd move into the edge and into sensor devices and then sort of these these tiny devices that are physically embodied and disappear into the world. The ones like we\u0026#8217;ve been talking about. There, energy matters more than ever because you\u0026#8217;re typically constrained entirely by energy.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:17.52\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd I\u0026#8217;m talking about batteries. I\u0026#8217;m talking about you know far away installations of things. And so energy is going to be just the most important thing across the board. Energy, I think we\u0026#8217;re we\u0026#8217;re in the we\u0026#8217;re in the era of computing where energy is the only thing that matters.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:31.51\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. So yeah, you\u0026#8217;re probably going to see a big explosion on you and obviously the AI, but large data centers needing more and more power. It\u0026#8217;s going to get to a point and then your energy efficiency will become more important. And after that period, you\u0026#8217;ll have explosive starting periods as the AI really embeds into society. And then there\u0026#8217;ll be more of a push of focus on the energy efficiency side, right? Presumably.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:57.14\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, I think so. I mean, i think\u0026#8217;re I think we\u0026#8217;re there.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:58.03\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nit\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:59.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nWe\u0026#8217;re at the cusp. And and this has been our guiding principle is is to be motivated by by energy efficiency. I think people are now, we\u0026#8217;re seeing this through, you know, popular media even is covering this.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e42:10.80\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nah People are seeing the the true cost of all of this amazing AI magic.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e42:13.65\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e42:14.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd it it comes in the form of energy. And I think that that is something we\u0026#8217;re going to have to reckon with, especially you know as you just said and as I was saying before, we see more physically embodied use cases for computation, including you know machine learning and AI, but lots of other things too. We get these applications out there. They\u0026#8217;re not going to consume less energy. It\u0026#8217;s going to be more. And so we need to keep pushing the envelope on on energy efficiency. you know The first era of computing going way back was figuring out, how do we do general purpose?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e42:45.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nThen after that, we got into an era of how do we push performance? Now we\u0026#8217;re in pushing performance through specialization. We get some efficiency, but it runs out. We need generality. And when we go back to generality, it\u0026#8217;s going to be energy. That\u0026#8217;s the only thing that matters.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e43:00.69\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyep ye Very true. Right, last question then. A bit off topic, but as a professor and startup ceo CEO, what advice would you give to researchers and entrepreneurs who want to bridge the gap between academia and industry?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e43:16.34\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nOh, well, I think that I have learned an enormous amount from my career in the academic world. um I have loved being in the academic world and and I continue to love being in the academic world. it\u0026#8217;s ah It\u0026#8217;s a delightful place to work and there\u0026#8217;s so much to learn and so many creative people. I have taken lessons from there, like the ability to take risks and work under uncertainty.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e43:39.34\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nand to sort of port those skills over into the startup world and and sort of mold them to something that works on the side of industry. And likewise, I think that running a company and doing advanced development and commercialization has helped me to understand problems in the real world and understand, you know, what what does the world care about? What do people care about? What really matters for applications?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e44:00.74\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nand to bring that in and it it\u0026#8217;s sort of it it sheds light on my academic interests and even the kinds of problems that I select today to to work on and and sort of research and like in the academic world is influenced by that. So I would say you know if you\u0026#8217;re an aspiring academic thinking about you know should I do a startup first of all make sure this is not you know Yo, I have a billion dollar app idea kind of, you know, so make sure it\u0026#8217;s actually a good idea. ah Make sure it\u0026#8217;s something that you really believe in. I can say, you know, wholeheartedly efficient is something that I really believe in. I think that what we\u0026#8217;re doing is it\u0026#8217;s different. I think it is highly differentiated. And I think it\u0026#8217;s we\u0026#8217;re going to we\u0026#8217;re going to change the landscape of computing with what we\u0026#8217;re doing.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e44:39.68\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s what motivated me to go and so and and start this company with Nathan and and Graham with Alex Hawkinson, our fourth co-founder. That\u0026#8217;s what motivated us to take the plunge and to dive in and make this happen. If you feel that, you should do it. There\u0026#8217;s ways to make it work. I mean, honestly, reach out to me personally. If I have if i have a minute, I\u0026#8217;d love to you know send you a note and give you give you my two cents for where you\u0026#8217;re at in your career and and thinking about it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e45:04.43\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut you know more broadly, find someone near you that can help you like decode the riddle of how do I turn this sort of maybe a little bit esoteric and not quite product-ready academic idea into something that you can use in the real world and make it into a company. um There\u0026#8217;s a lot of resources out there. There\u0026#8217;s a lot of people that want to help you learn. and you know As with anywhere, I think most people want most people to succeed.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e45:27.16\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nLike most people you talk to, they want most, like it it seems sometimes like you\u0026#8217;re getting beat over the head and the world is adversarial.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e45:27.20\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nwith you.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e45:33.20\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut I think if you go into a poll, I think most people actually want most other people to succeed. It doesn\u0026#8217;t always happen that way, but you know, most people are are positive in that way. And so I think if you reach out to mentors, if you reach out to friends who understand this world, like don\u0026#8217;t be afraid to do that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e45:47.52\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nPeople more than you might imagine or are willing to give you even 15 minutes might help you to get oriented. So just take the plunge. If you really believe in in an idea, take the plunge.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e45:57.16\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah Something I should have added is, ah do you recommend it? Probably should have been added to that question.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e46:02.28\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, I mean, it\u0026#8217;s been a real learning experience. It has ups and downs, like everything I\u0026#8217;ve ever done has had ups and downs. I think, you know, one way I like to say it is I have a three-year-old son and a three-year-old company, and I don\u0026#8217;t know if I would recommend doing that kind of staging of major life events.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e46:19.70\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e46:20.64\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut it was a lot to take on at once. um But, you know, of course, I love my family. I\u0026#8217;m a total family man and I love efficient and I love what we\u0026#8217;re doing here. So, you know, no regrets. But it\u0026#8217;s, yeah, it definitely is is a big time sponge across the board. I would say both of both of these things, all of these things are are a big time sponge. Just be ready for that. That\u0026#8217;s something I would say if you\u0026#8217;re thinking about it all. So be ready for that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e46:42.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely. Advice for us all, I think.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e46:44.52\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e46:45.40\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s the end of my questions. Is there anything else you would like to add that we haven\u0026#8217;t discussed that you think would be important?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e46:50.61\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nNo, I mean just i think you know what what we\u0026#8217;re doing at Efficient, like I said before, is we\u0026#8217;re doing something that\u0026#8217;s really new. I think what we\u0026#8217;re doing is massively differentiated in terms of the technology itself, the architecture is fundamentally different, and the benefit that we bring, you know this one to two orders of magnitude improvement in energy. This is what real world applications need, especially these sort of physically embodied intelligence applications.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e47:13.98\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo I\u0026#8217;m really excited to to see our work, you know, putting this technology out into the world. um We\u0026#8217;re going to have silicon available mid-year, and for our our early access customers, that\u0026#8217;s going to be landing.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e47:24.94\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nContact me if you\u0026#8217;re interested. and That\u0026#8217;s addressed to your audience. I hope that\u0026#8217;s okay. um we\u0026#8217;re We\u0026#8217;re, you know, accepting customers into our early access program now, and we\u0026#8217;re going to be pushing products end to 25, early 26 into the broad market.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e47:28.94\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s really fine.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e47:36.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nVery excited to see that happen and to see the the use cases start to to pile up and see you know real value in the real world from our technology. Very excited about that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e47:45.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nExcellent. and Fantastic. Good. break Very best of luck to you. Hope it succeeds. and Basically, yes, with that, thank you for your time, Brandon. That was very interesting.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e47:56.14\u003cbr /\u003e\nBrandon\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, thank you very much. I appreciate you having me on your show.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e47:58.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOur pleasure.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eThat concludes this episode of Lexicon.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eThank you all for tuning in and being our guest today.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eFollow our social media channels for the latest science and technology news. Also don’t forget to subscribe to IE+ for premium insights and exclusive content!\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eGoodbye for now.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\n","episode_number":"72","sponsor_image":null,"sponsor_name":null,"sponsor_url":null,"hosts":[{"name":"Christopher McFadden","title":"Host","biography":"\u003cp\u003eChristopher graduated from Cardiff University in 2004 with a Masters Degree in Geology. Since then, he has worked exclusively within the Built Environment, Occupational Health and Safety and Environmental Consultancy industries. He is a qualified and accredited Energy Consultant, Green Deal Assessor and Practitioner member of IEMA. Chris’s main interests range from Science and Engineering, Military and Ancient History to Politics and Philosophy.\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/avatars/XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","title":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","name":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","description":"N/A","alt_text":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","reference":null}}],"speakers":[{"name":"Brandon Lucia","title":"CEO and co-founder of Efficient Computer","biography":"\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://brandonlucia.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eBrandon Lucia\u003c/a\u003e is the CEO and co-founder of \u003ca href=\"https://www.efficient.computer/about\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eEfficient Computer\u003c/a\u003e, a Carnegie Mellon University spin-off revolutionizing energy-efficient computing. With over 20 years of experience in computer hardware and software, Brandon is also a professor at Carnegie Mellon, where he has led pioneering research in energy-constrained and resource-efficient computing. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eHis work focuses on tackling the limitations of traditional chip architectures, enabling breakthroughs in AI, IoT, wearables, and space technologies. Under Brandon’s leadership, Efficient Computer is redefining what’s possible with its groundbreaking Fabric processor, delivering unmatched efficiency and adaptability for real-world applications.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/brandon.png","title":"brandon.png","name":"brandon.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"brandon.png","reference":null}}],"introductions":"\u003cp\u003eToday, we’re joined by \u003ca href=\"https://www.ece.cmu.edu/directory/bios/lucia-brandon.html\"\u003eBrandon Lucia\u003c/a\u003e, CEO of \u003ca href=\"https://www.efficient.computer/about\"\u003eEfficient Computer\u003c/a\u003e and professor at Carnegie Mellon University, to explore how energy-efficient chips are reshaping the tech landscape.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eFrom AI to space exploration, Brandon shares insights into solving real-world challenges with groundbreaking processor design and unparalleled efficiency.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eJoin us as we dive into the future of computing and discover how energy efficiency could unlock new frontiers in technology and sustainability.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eAlso don’t forget to subscribe to \u003ca href=\"https://interestingengineering.com/subscribe\"\u003eIE+\u003c/a\u003e for premium insights and exclusive content!\u003c/p\u003e\n","host_introductions":null,"speakers_introductions":null,"player_code":"https://interestingengineering.com/podcast/lexicon/ais-energy-crisis-innovations-shaping-the-future-of-computing","publish_date":"2025-01-16T15:27:43+00:00","publish_date_detail":"Jan 16, 2025 10:27 AM EST","status":1,"page_title":"AI's Energy Crisis: Innovations Shaping the Future of Computing","keywords":"Efficient Computer","description":"","seo_title":"AI's Energy Crisis: Innovations Shaping the Future of Computing - Interesting Engineering","og_title":"AI's Energy Crisis: Innovations Shaping the Future of Computing - Interesting Engineering","og_image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-22.png","title":"1-22.png","name":"1-22.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"1-22.png","reference":null},"og_url":null,"og_type":null,"main_image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-22.png","title":"1-22.png","name":"1-22.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"1-22.png","reference":null}},{"title":"AI-Powered Architecture: Redefining the Future of Design and Sustainability","abstract":"Learn how AI helps architects and engineers streamline workflows, cut carbon emissions, and achieve innovative, sustainable designs.","slug":"ai-powered-architecture-redefining-the-future-of-design-and-sustainability","transcript":"\u003cp\u003eWelcome to today\u0026#8217;s episode of Lexicon! I am Christopher McFadden, a contributing writer for Interesting Engineering.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eToday, we sit down with Sina Flynn, PE, a highly experienced structural engineer and project manager at Little Diversified Architectural Consulting, to uncover how AI is revolutionizing structural design.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eFrom automating workflows to enhancing collaboration, Sina shares how AI drives innovation, efficiency, and sustainability in architecture and engineering.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eJoin us as we explore the future of construction, where AI empowers engineers to optimize materials, reduce carbon emissions, and create safer, greener buildings.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eBefore getting into today’s episode, here’s something to elevate your 2025. Level up your knowledge with IE+! Subscribe today to access exclusive premium articles enriched with expert insights, and enjoy members-only technical newsletters designed to keep you ahead in technology and science. Subscribe now!\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eFrom AI to Data, we’ll be providing top-quality courses with live and interactive workshops with professional instructors, and you’re invited to join the community.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eNow, let’s continue with today’s episode.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:00.68\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSino, thanks for joining us. How are you today?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:03.23\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nI\u0026#8217;m good, Chris. How are you doing?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:04.87\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nVery well, thank you. and For our audience\u0026#8217;s benefit, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, please?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:11.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes, of course. Well, I am a structural engineer by practice. I\u0026#8217;ve been in the field for almost seven years now. I\u0026#8217;m a senior structural engineer. And in the past few years, I\u0026#8217;ve been managing projects that are mainly commercial architectural projects focused on the structural design of things.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:27.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd I also have some ah background in AI because I\u0026#8217;ve been champion in bringing AI solutions into our company and really trying to advance our company to the future using AI design software.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:41.48\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nExcellent. Well on that topic then, how do you see a AI pardony transforming the field of structural analysis in architecture and engineering over the next decade?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:51.82\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, there\u0026#8217;s going to be a lot of changes for sure. And it really does depend on what the technology companies can offer, but I can already see them kind of propelling this into the future because it is something that\u0026#8217;s going to be used widely amongst everyone to really increase efficiencies within the design itself. So currently the way we design and have a structural software and architectural software, everything that\u0026#8217;s really included,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:18.12\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nis that there\u0026#8217;s a lot of manual inputs that goes into things. So even though we do have softwares that do a lot of the manual a lot of the manual calculations for us, so we don\u0026#8217;t actually have to sit in front of a calculator anymore, we still have to input information, links, sizes, dimensions, the type of building where it\u0026#8217;s located, the loads that are going to be associated to it. This is all manually inputted.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:43.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nversus if we have AI into these softwares automatically being able to interpret the location of the project, being able to interpret what type of project the client\u0026#8217;s needs and really bring in all that manual work altogether into the piece, into the software, we will be able to eliminate all of this and have a lot of efficiencies and synchronization between architects and other mechanical electrical engineers.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:07.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay. Is that a similar to, um, I forget the term. Is it building information system or something BM or building?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:14.66\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, BIM, building information modeling. Yes.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:16.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThank you.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:17.33\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo that\u0026#8217;s mainly what I\u0026#8217;m talking about.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:17.81\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nbut\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:19.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nI am also talking about um structural design software, which is after you\u0026#8217;ve done your building information modeling, which is a main source for architects because that\u0026#8217;s how they kind of see what the building is going to come alive and what it\u0026#8217;s going to look like.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:30.65\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:32.80\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nThey also use it to communicate with clients. um But once we are done with our bi building information modeling, which is the BIM, we move on to actual structural design, which is we put the BIM information into the software.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:44.87\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nto see what sizes we\u0026#8217;re going to need, to see what the design actually has to be in terms of the bones of the building.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:50.87\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nright And that\u0026#8217;s a bit like a layer in, is it GIS I used to do in geology, geographic information system.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:57.06\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah GIS, yes. Well, GIS is more of like geotechnical landscape engineering.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:01.09\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:02.29\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s what they use. um This is more of finite element analysis.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:03.46\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nCorrect.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:06.27\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nHave you ever heard of that?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:07.40\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWhoa. Okay. I have to explain.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:09.92\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. it\u0026#8217;s It\u0026#8217;s mainly what structural engineers use when it comes to steel building design.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:15.49\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOK, very cool. um So yeah again, going on that. So what are the some of the most innovative ways AI uses structural analysis and design and ways to use AI in the process?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:28.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes, I think the best way to use AI right now is kind of a combination because it\u0026#8217;s not interpreted, inputted into the software itself yet. So it\u0026#8217;s kind of its separate entity still.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:39.97\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd the way it works is you can have a joint relationship, open your software and have your AI open as well and kind of input questions and things of synergies that you can create. Once AI is really incorporated into the software, it\u0026#8217;s going to be able to provide suggestions, which is going to be the most innovative and best way to really use AI when it comes to these sort of design criteria. There\u0026#8217;s a lot of,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:06.01\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nTo this day, I mean, there\u0026#8217;s a lot of human error that goes into the design. So in order to really eliminate the human error and really create those um points where we\u0026#8217;re going to be able to have a lot more, um not just efficiencies, but also like to be able to create something new that comes from collaboration. We need to be able to have some sort of a software that AI is going to take place here.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:35.70\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nthat\u0026#8217;s going to combine all the knowledge of an MEP, mechanical, electrical, structural, and architects, and bring in suggestions without having that additional need to communicate with other people. Because it does take a lot throughout coordination meetings to be able to come up with solutions. So if AI can really take that spot of, hey, these are the suggestions that you can really use without even communicating with anyone else, and it\u0026#8217;s our responsibility to make sure to backcheck these suggestions.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:05.38\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay, now, presumably improve safety, and structural integrity of the building.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:06.10\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nessentially.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:12.70\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt will improve everything 100%.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:12.70\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand ah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:15.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd the integrity, the the safety of the safety of human life, which is the number one thing that we really look at.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:19.29\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:22.58\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut aside from that, to be to be completely transparent about that we already safety is number one. So I\u0026#8217;ve never really had a concern about safety, AI with AI or without AI.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:27.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:32.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nSafety is never really the major concern because that is still a number one priority for us, regardless of if we have AI incorporated. But I think the major thing in my head when it comes to incorporating AI is the sustainability effects that we\u0026#8217;re going to have.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:49.21\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s the way that we\u0026#8217;re going to be able to reduce the amount of materials that we use. or change the materials that we use that are going to be better for environment and better for overall humanity, right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:01.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo if you find them with structural engineering, um there\u0026#8217;s a tendency to over-engineer because you\u0026#8217;re erring on the side of safety. So AI will be able to let you trim it, trim the fat off, so to speak, and still be building my understanding correctly.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:09.83\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes. Yes. Yeah, you actually touch up on a good point right there because 100% Because a lot of the structural engineers, a lot of architects, we are so time constrained and our number one priority is still safety. We prefer to be conservative, very conservative when it comes to the design that we do, which consequently results in not being very um efficient with the materials that we use. right so And that kind of strays us away from where we\u0026#8217;re supposed to be going when it comes to sustainable design.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:51.97\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd an AI\u0026#8217;s role right here is going to be able to have safety and sustainable design combined into one package for us to be able to use.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:02.83\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay, and um how are you finding it so far existing AI systems? are they um Presumably it\u0026#8217;s got to be check double-checked by ah human engineers.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:13.54\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nOh, 100%.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:13.43\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAny suggestions? it\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:14.94\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes, yes, definitely 100%. I don\u0026#8217;t think in any sort of way we can rely on AI doing everything on its own right now. um It really needs us to be able to input questions and and basically guide AI into whatever answer we want to get. AI is not really able to understand what we\u0026#8217;re looking for with just maybe a single ah question or two. You really still need to guide it to the answer you want to get, but I think it\u0026#8217;s very useful as long as you know how to guide it. so I know a lot of people in their mind are thinking, Oh, AI is going to take our jobs or it\u0026#8217;s going to take, ah it it really is not in that capacity at all. Um, just because AI needs human control. It needs someone to be able to control it, to be able to say, Hey, this is what I need. This is what I need you to output for me. Um, and that\u0026#8217;s why we\u0026#8217;re always really going to need our structural engineers. We\u0026#8217;re always really going to need our architects to be able to design or guide the AI.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:15.04\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nto do the design.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:16.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nabsolutely yeah stupid otherwise well it with AI, it would do nothing. If you didn\u0026#8217;t prompt it to do anything, it would just sit there.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:24.01\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight, exactly. Yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:26.45\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:26.72\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt doesn\u0026#8217;t have its own intelligence, basically. I mean, I think artificial intelligence is kind of oh not a really good name for it, even.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:35.48\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:35.64\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight? Yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:37.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah intelligent help like yeah yeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:41.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nIntelligent health. ah Right. Yeah, I think it does need a better name, but overall it just it needs human control right now So it\u0026#8217;s not taking over anything.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:51.57\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt is just helping us I think it\u0026#8217;s helping us a lot in terms of saving time in terms of being able to see things that we wouldn\u0026#8217;t be able to see on our own um Just because we\u0026#8217;re sometimes we\u0026#8217;re just one person, you know Interaction is the key when it comes to being able to design innovative things um being able to come up with innovation, right so\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:01.11\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. Yeah, intelligent.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:10.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nI think it\u0026#8217;s just a great tool to have to even brainstorm sometimes, right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:17.77\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely, yeah. So presumably, and with regards to structural engineering, an architect would could give you a building design that they\u0026#8217;ve conceived. And you can use you could use the AI to give you a draft structural plan for the building to have to make it work. Is that how it would work? And then obviously, you\u0026#8217;d go in and tinker with it. And so that\u0026#8217;s not going to work. or\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:43.40\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. Yeah. So you\u0026#8217;re basically asking about how the interaction goes between architects and engineers.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:46.64\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:49.55\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd it\u0026#8217;s very similar to exactly what you\u0026#8217;re saying. um The way the company that I work for is actually a little different than um traditional ways that building design goes.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:02.53\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd traditionally, architects are kind of a separate entity. Engineers are separate entity, different firms, and architects will create a design. collaborating with the clients, trying to satisfy their needs and being able to achieve you know the client\u0026#8217;s purpose. And once that\u0026#8217;s done with their best knowledge of how the building is going to be designed in the background. And once that\u0026#8217;s done, they will deliver that package over to the engineers and say, hey, can we put some bones into this? Can we get mechanical equipment in there, electrical equipment in there? And they\u0026#8217;ll go back and forth a little bit in order to um really get the final results of the building.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:39.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nversus the way um Little works is we\u0026#8217;re all in-house, so we\u0026#8217;re all one company. And because of that, we\u0026#8217;re really early on getting into coordination and collaboration, which is um even talking to the clients who will have engineers in the room trying to answer any sort of questions they might have and even coming up with something creative. And that goes to the the whole innovation side of things. um I really love Little in terms of that aspect because they know more knowledge,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:10.04\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\ndiversified knowledge, let\u0026#8217;s say, diversified knowledge will create better solutions. So we basically start off with engineers, architects, everyone in the room, kind of brainstorming of what we can do. And then architects will start off the package using building information modeling. They\u0026#8217;ll model things, talking to architects. I talk into the engineers as well, saying, Hey, can we do this? Well, what if we do that? If we do this kind of just kind of going back and forth collaborating.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:40.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd at the same time, um engineers will have their building information modeling actively being put into the architects model. So everyone is modeling simultaneously like at the same time. um And once they\u0026#8217;ve kind of have a model that they\u0026#8217;re comfortable with, then the engineers can start their analysis. So that\u0026#8217;s kind of the how the collaboration goes among us. We talk, we try to talk as much as possible.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e12:08.32\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nand um come up with something that\u0026#8217;s not always traditional. That\u0026#8217;s going to make the most sense for the client, but also we have a lot of sustainable initiatives. So we\u0026#8217;re trying to achieve our sustainable initiatives, right? So there\u0026#8217;s a lot that goes into that, a lot of coordination and talk. And I think that is the reason why exactly AI is just so key in this process because there\u0026#8217;s so much collaboration that goes on. And if we can assist with that collaboration, even if it means there are a lot of instances, for example, when I\u0026#8217;m talking to mechanical electrical engineers, there are some terms that I wouldn\u0026#8217;t understand. Cause if it\u0026#8217;s just strictly a mechanical and an electrical term, um, AI could really help me in understanding what that means when you don\u0026#8217;t really understand the terms or if you\u0026#8217;re kind of lost in some of the jargon.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:03.04\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nit\u0026#8217;s harder to collaborate and come up with something innovative, right? So if AI can be the tool in between that\u0026#8217;s really telling me, Hey, this is, this is what they\u0026#8217;re coming from. This is what they\u0026#8217;re saying. Um, and these are possible solutions that you can speak to them with.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:15.96\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nThen I can use that and go back and have a different conversation. For example.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:20.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, it\u0026#8217;s an anti-jogging buster, basically.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:23.62\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. Jargon buster, um, you know, idea creator, just kind of somewhere to start off with.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:30.28\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nCool. I mean, it\u0026#8217;s been off topic topic, but it sounds like um AI like this could kind of reverse the trend I\u0026#8217;ve noticed where you\u0026#8217;ll have large consultancies will buy out smaller companies to add that service in. But this could do it in kind of reverse it, couldn\u0026#8217;t it? So it could help democratize for want of a better term, smaller companies to be able to compete with the big boys for want of a better term on their own terms. Or am I completely\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:59.68\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nNo, no, no, I really love that idea. Um, I think the the thing that comes to mind when you say that is the QA portion of it, the quality assurance portion of it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:12.68\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nUm, because we can\u0026#8217;t really a hundred percent rely on AI right now to give us the ideas, right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:15.95\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, full.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:17.32\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nWe still need someone to double check what AI says. So I wouldn\u0026#8217;t a hundred percent say that it would kind of buy them out because it would still need that resource.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:29.35\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nUm, but I think it definitely would assist in helping them, um, move a step further. Cause it is still information.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:39.58\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nThey, they are able to see it\u0026#8217;s information they\u0026#8217;re able to use in terms of their personal design, but I don\u0026#8217;t think it\u0026#8217;s enough information to be able to publish without person, but someone else backtracking what AI says.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:51.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nCaps there, yes.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:52.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nRegardless, ah regardless of what, um, AI is used for, I think a hundred percent, it needs to be backchecked.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:59.13\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOf course.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:59.34\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nUm, yeah, especially when it comes to human life safety, which is what we\u0026#8217;re, what we\u0026#8217;re concerned with daily. So, um, as long as there\u0026#8217;s someone there to be able to see and say, all right, um, what AI is saying is correct. Um, we can move forward with this then a hundred percent. I think that\u0026#8217;s completely okay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:22.07\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nit\u0026#8217;s Fantastic. It kind of brings me on to the next question here. and Again, I think you probably answered it, to be honest, but what are the biggest challenges facing the adoption of AI in architectural consulting and structural analysis?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:36.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nThe biggest challenges, let me think about that, um because there\u0026#8217;s a lot of challenges. I think one of the biggest challenges I would say is people getting used to using it. Honestly, I think there\u0026#8217;s a lot of there\u0026#8217;s a lot of people are hesitant to change, which I 100% understand. I totally get that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:03.34\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\num And that\u0026#8217;s why I think it\u0026#8217;s, would be a little more difficult for people who are been in the field for a very long time are used to doing in a certain way to integrate AI and ah effectively use AI. but Right now, the way AI is incorporated into our design is we have to manually, we have to open it and actually use it. It\u0026#8217;s not coming in and during design and saying, Hey, you should, which is, which I think is going to be the future by the way. But right now it\u0026#8217;s not doing that, right? That\u0026#8217;s not coming into the design and saying suggesting things.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:33.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s not saying, oh, maybe you should do this or automatically updating things for us. It\u0026#8217;s not really seamless integrity integrat integration just yet. And because of that, I think right now the biggest challenge is having engineers and architects actually manually open AI and ask it prompted questions and allow it to help them move forward, help them help AI to help them, and essentially, to really start improving their design.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:59.06\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nso\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:00.28\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nah Fair enough. Presumably a lot of the older engineers will have had to transition from paper to CAD kind of systems, right? So, but you but okay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:08.93\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nOh, yeah. Yeah. we We actually have an engineer. um I love him. he\u0026#8217;s He\u0026#8217;s amazing, super knowledgeable. He has been working for a very long time and he um used to, ah he tells us stories about, you know, the days he used to draw on the paper, like the drawings used to be actual manually drawn. um So yeah, there\u0026#8217;s a lot of people who are kind of even coming from that background. So transitioning from Mainly drawing to a paper to all the way up to here where I\u0026#8217;m just going to have the the software, things that are not tangible, tell me what to do.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:44.34\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s kind of a big transition for them.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:48.48\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, that\u0026#8217;s a fair point, yeah. You got me in a business doing like a, do you remember Clippy from Windows?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:49.98\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:53.32\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nClippy for Windows? No.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:55.12\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand um ah It\u0026#8217;s a little paperclip and he\u0026#8217;s like ah a virtual assistant, a really early one. So he\u0026#8217;d come in and say, if you\u0026#8217;re trying to write a letter, would you like me to drop a letter?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:00.49\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nOK. Yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:05.80\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, but you were saying that the AI in the future could suggest stuff to you. I just messaged you with a hard hat on or something.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:15.36\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah Yeah, it can. so i mean AI that\u0026#8217;s already incorporated into the software does that. It can create suggestions. um It\u0026#8217;ll automatically even update things for you wanted to um if you wanted to do so. like If you um ask for the software to be able to do this automatically in the background, it will be able to do it. so it It\u0026#8217;s able to do a lot of the automations and the and the suggestions. and and updates automatically for you if you allow it to. It\u0026#8217;s just the structural engineering software that we\u0026#8217;re using right now hasn\u0026#8217;t fully integrated into that yet, but I already see them kind of moving forward. A few companies, especially BIM companies that are really trying to integrate AI and into um the daily software or our daily use of software. So, but right now, yeah, it\u0026#8217;s just open it on the side, talk to it, let it give you suggestions um and incorporate that knowledge back in.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:13.76\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo it does it run at work? Of course it would. It runs calculations for you, presumably. Things like that help you out, or not.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:20.33\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo yeah, um the calculations part is not very accurate right now, to be honest. ah So the calculations are fully still dependent on the structural analysis softwares, which I think it will stay that way. AI will just basically be incorporated into that, where, for example, you\u0026#8217;ll give a few information about the building, and it\u0026#8217;ll automatically say, OK, this building is located in this place, so the wind load is going to be this, where it just automatically takes out building code information, for example, without you having to do the additional work to go look at the building code step by step. Or it\u0026#8217;ll be able to give you automatic suggestions of beam and girder lengths and span lengths. So, or the heights of the building and ceiling and where the ceiling is going to, so it\u0026#8217;ll grab information from the architects and say, the ceiling\u0026#8217;s located here. So maybe the full height should be from here to here sort of thing. So it\u0026#8217;ll,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:15.51\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;ll start automating automating those processes where we do all of those manually currently.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:20.64\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, of course. But you say manually, but you\u0026#8217;re using a ah special software, calculation software separately, right? Or the spreadsheets with an algorithm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:27.62\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nCalculation is, yes, not manual. Most of the times, at least sometimes it Yeah, it\u0026#8217;s not.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:32.86\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, so it\u0026#8217;s not a big step to have that incorporated into the AI as well, right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:37.58\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nit yeah it\u0026#8217;s not\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:39.56\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. Okay. um Fair enough then. um So again, we\u0026#8217;ve kind of touched on this one, but how can AI best compliment human expertise without replacing engineers, critical judgment?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:53.64\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\ni Yeah, we\u0026#8217;ve been talking about what\u0026#8217;s kind of the main point I would say about having it fully integrated.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:57.67\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:00.94\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nah And it will never take over. Well, never say never. i Yeah, um say maybe.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:04.69\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:05.83\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nbe Well, one day, who knows. But right now, at least the capabilities of AI cannot really take over human judgment and human capabilities, just because we need to control it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:16.72\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut um yeah, in terms of the best way to incorporate, it just needs to seamlessly be and incorporate it into the software that we use.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:25.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nright and and Well, it would because it will never make final decisions. It\u0026#8217;s always going to need a write off by.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:30.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt will, yes, it will never.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:31.58\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah like\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:32.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. When it comes to human safety, it should definitely never make final decisions.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:36.27\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, excellent. It\u0026#8217;s good to hear. and So you already did mention building regulations and codes. So what role will AI play in meeting increasingly stringent building codes and regulations?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:48.97\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. So. The main role it will play is keeping up, I\u0026#8217;ll be able to talk in a second, ah keep up with the building codes. So, ah as building codes are changing and updating, it is actually manually a lot of time for us to kind of understand what has changed. All right, what do we need to update? These are a lot of things that are time consuming, right? So AI is going to be key there to ah to be able to update itself based on the new\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:22.68\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nthe new information coming from the building codes and telling us exactly what we need to do and where we need to change and even automatically updating and making those changes itself. So when it comes to the building codes and regulations, AI is just going to be incredible for us if it\u0026#8217;s just automatically incorporated and used.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:44.07\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nDo you foresee a future in the future maybe and feedback from ah these kind of AIs ah to the regulators to help maybe change the building code or simplify it or I don\u0026#8217;t know make suggestions?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:58.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\n100%, 100%, yeah, I think, um yes, I think 100% that they\u0026#8217;re gonna be able to give, \u0026lt;unk\u0026gt;ner like locations of synergies are or be able to recommend things that are in the building code based on past data, because AI\u0026#8217;s gonna be able to drag all, AI\u0026#8217;s gonna collect all this past data and give them an informed analysis of what they could move forward with. When it comes to, for example, I\u0026#8217;m just gonna give an idea of when it comes to wind and seismic loads for structural engineering, we rely on past data. That\u0026#8217;s what the that\u0026#8217;s what the codes um essentially output for us to use is what\u0026#8217;s happened in the past. So if AI is incorporated and is able to look and kind of give another analysis and suggestions, they could definitely use that. So I would say even when it comes to the building codes and\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:55.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, even when it comes to the building codes, AI is going to be able to great give great suggestions and improve in every way that we could.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:05.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, because the past data will have incorporated human error, wouldn\u0026#8217;t it, into designs and things. So, and yeah, you might, yeah, I don\u0026#8217;t know what I\u0026#8217;m trying to say, might make it more, it\u0026#8217;s make it but better and it\u0026#8217;s for everything, for everybody concerned.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:21.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes, 100%. Yeah. Um, it\u0026#8217;s still, it\u0026#8217;s the same thing as what I was saying, essentially for structural engineering, where we\u0026#8217;re creating synergies and efficiencies, they can create synergies and efficiencies. There are a lot of, there are a lot of things in the building codes that are repetitive or maybe even challenge each other, or there\u0026#8217;s, there\u0026#8217;s loops or gaps, you know, so these are the sort of things that AI can help them, um, transform and improve because in the end of the day, there are also people in the background trying to create these codes. Right. So.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:51.23\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nsomeone an assist that can help them in taking, making sure there\u0026#8217;s no gaps and making sure they can kind of combine things together and making sure they can create efficiencies is always going to be helpful for them as well.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:03.40\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\n100%.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:03.62\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo how how playful can you be with it? I\u0026#8217;m thinking sort of designing buildings for like non-standard locations. I don\u0026#8217;t know, under the sea, on the moon.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:15.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nI don\u0026#8217;t know. and\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:16.87\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nWell, yeah I 100% I understand what you\u0026#8217;re talking about. You\u0026#8217;re like, can it be give you things that no one has done before? Basically is what you\u0026#8217;re asking.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:24.11\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. Yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:26.76\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd the answer is no, because AI uses ah human information. So whatever information you feed is what it uses. um So I mean, it\u0026#8217;ll probably come up with a creative answer in terms of just like a funny thing, basically, but it\u0026#8217;s not going to be a real, it\u0026#8217;s not going to be real or accurate because it only uses information that already exists.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:48.03\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat makes sense. yeah yeah yeah i mean You could pre presumably have a simulation package that could in theory take in what is known about physics on Earth and out of space and use it that way.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:49.34\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:53.82\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:04.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nbut it\u0026#8217;s obviously\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:05.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, it\u0026#8217;ll definitely make some guesses. Yeah. But I think that\u0026#8217;s as far as it\u0026#8217;ll be. It\u0026#8217;s like it\u0026#8217;s a guess, right? So um which is what you would expect from anyone, just kind of like attacking a guess in terms of what it\u0026#8217;s already been fed.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:19.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s a fair thorough enough enough point.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:20.57\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. Yeah. Yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:21.28\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand Okay, so as AI becomes more integral to design and analysis, what ethical considerations should engineers and architects consider?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:31.65\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nNever fully rely on AI.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:34.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:36.67\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nUh, no, I mean, I\u0026#8217;ve used, I use AI a lot. Um, and I can tell you a lot of the answers that it spits out is not, ah it\u0026#8217;s not even logical sometimes.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:48.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo. I think there has to be a lot of human human judgment when it comes to using AI. It\u0026#8217;s very, very useful. I think if it\u0026#8217;s used in the right way, it\u0026#8217;s really going to propel us in terms of, especially when it comes to architectural, structural design, sustainable design, and innovative design. It could really propel us if we use it in the right way, but we just need to make sure we\u0026#8217;re not just fully relying on it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:13.90\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nFair enough. I don\u0026#8217;t think we\u0026#8217;ve touched enough on this, so I\u0026#8217;ll come back to this question. I thought we um hadn\u0026#8217;t.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:18.50\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:19.41\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut um so we mentioned sustainability and improvements with AI, ah specifically with optimizing material usage.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:23.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:28.34\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand Perhaps we should talk about that a bit more, really, ah how it can sort of there.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:31.40\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:33.81\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:35.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nUm, we\u0026#8217;re doing a lot of effort in terms of company. I myself, um, kind of leading the SC 2050 initiative, which is essentially having net zero energy buildings by the year of 2050, but 10 of 50 is really far.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:48.61\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:49.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo hopefully sooner, right? Um, and a lot of the companies are really kind of pushing towards this to be able to have sustainable designs, uh, when it comes to building, um, when it comes to building a construction. So there\u0026#8217;s also, aside from AI, there\u0026#8217;s a lot of research that\u0026#8217;s going into finding ways to do this. I mean, there are different types of concrete is one of the biggest carbon emissions and, um, construction, you know, there\u0026#8217;s a lot of alternatives that are coming out for concrete.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:20.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\num and And essentially things that are out there that were not even in our reach or not in not even in the reach of um just a typical person working at an architectural engineering firm, right? Trying to do a design. So if AI is able to tap into these done researches online, people that are actually kind of creating and making ways for innovative design when it comes to listening to carbon emissions in construction, if AI is able to tap into this and help us and give us suggestions,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:51.14\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nthat\u0026#8217;s going to 100% improve the design. And also, the biggest thing AI is going to be able to do is create the efficiencies that I was talking about in the beginning of our conversation, because the efficiencies are goingnna are what\u0026#8217;s going to lead to the biggest impact of lessening materials. We\u0026#8217;re just over-designing right now. And if we\u0026#8217;re able to achieve the safety regulations that we want to have without over-designing because of the time constraints that we\u0026#8217;re in most of the time,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:17.60\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\num By the way, it\u0026#8217;s not always over design, but a lot of the times there\u0026#8217;s just a lot of push, especially contractors are also under a lot of pressure to get things done. Um, just the construction industry is in a very, very fast pace industry. So if we\u0026#8217;re able to use AI to take control of that aspect of. See where we can eliminate materials, see where we can make things, um, less by doing more.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:46.41\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight? Higher strength, less material. How can we really achieve that? Give us suggestions, look through the database of the thing, the database of the internet, right? And just kind of figure out whatever research is going on.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:58.67\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nThere\u0026#8217;s a lot of research going on to be able to reduce these carbon emissions. So give us suggestions on those. Do the additional step that we don\u0026#8217;t have a time to do, essentially. And we will be able to reach those sustainable goals that we want to reach.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:10.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nHmm. Hmm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:12.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\num I think it\u0026#8217;s a definite. We definitely have to have that zero energy design. We have to stop emitting carbon into into the Earth by 2050 is like latest, but even before. So anything any way we can do that and AI incorporating AI to be able to do that is going to be the best thing.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:32.48\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah presum I mean, there\u0026#8217;s pretty a limit to it, but presumably ah it could allow you to experiment with, like you say, replacing concrete with other materials like timber or organic materials as an alternative, see what difference it makes.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:47.53\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, you\u0026#8217;d actually be surprised that timber is, yes, it is better, but it\u0026#8217;s not that much better right now because, um and I\u0026#8217;ll give you the reason, that the really the main reason is is because it\u0026#8217;s transported from certain areas.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:53.48\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:00.10\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:00.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nbut So it\u0026#8217;s better when if it if you\u0026#8217;re lo if the building is located in a place where you can really easily get timber. um But if it\u0026#8217;s not, then they need to haul all this timber across the country.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:10.87\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nand Um, ah but I guess I\u0026#8217;m just really talking about us right now. I think Europe has is way, way better in that circumstance. I think for in Europe, I think timber is actually very, um, the best way to go about when it comes to reducing emissions. Um, but especially in the U S is just not the best alternative right now, just because of the production of where the timber is coming, uh, which is mostly Northern America. So like Canada or like Western, I think around California, like those sort of areas.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:43.12\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\num Yeah, um so that\u0026#8217;s why, unfortunately, timber is not the the best solution when it comes to the areas of mid-US, east, southern, or South America for all that. um And the essentially, the alternatives that I was actually talking about are still concrete, but they\u0026#8217;re not actually concrete. they\u0026#8217;re just they\u0026#8217;re just like um how do i ah How do I explain this a little?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:11.57\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt still serves the purpose of concrete, and it looks like concrete, but the materials actually use less cement, for example, because cement is the worst part about the concrete that creates the emissions. So it\u0026#8217;s when using less cement.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:22.86\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s using this different type of chemical that\u0026#8217;s creating the same bond that you would have for concrete, but it\u0026#8217;s allowing you to less use less cement or no cement at all in some circumstances.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:25.11\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nright\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:33.80\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo that\u0026#8217;s what ah what I was referring to as an alternative.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:33.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\ni\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:36.32\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s still technically, I guess, concrete, but not really.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:39.49\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nbut yeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:39.67\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYou know? Yeah. Yeah, green concrete.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:41.56\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWhat about Roman concrete?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:42.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes, yes, yes. Yup.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:47.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nWoven concrete.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:48.53\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, it\u0026#8217;s ah it\u0026#8217;s a special formula. so the I forget the ingredients in it, but the Roman concrete still is made very differently than we make concrete today. It\u0026#8217;s very strong.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:58.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nMaybe that could be a resurgence.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:59.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nand You said a Roman concrete.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:01.35\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nI don\u0026#8217;t know.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:03.28\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:03.29\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\num\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:04.46\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay, I\u0026#8217;ve never heard a Roman concrete before.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:06.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, it\u0026#8217;s concrete the Romans used to use, basically, obviously, we\u0026#8217;ve got today to make modern concrete, so they and more must have been more sustainable in inverted commas than modern concrete is.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:10.06\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nOh, I see. Uh-huh.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:19.51\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, my guess is they use a lot of stone, a lot of aggregate.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:22.86\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nI and think so, yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:24.38\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, that\u0026#8217;s that\u0026#8217;s my guess.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:25.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nI wonder.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:26.21\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nIf it\u0026#8217;s, yeah, Roman all the days, so they probably use a lot of rock or aggregate, which is another material in concrete.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:32.46\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand I think there\u0026#8217;s some volcanic mineral inclusions in there ah but that does some weird chemical stuff that makes it really strong and it can set underwater and stuff. It\u0026#8217;s amazing.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:41.80\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nOh, wow. OK.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:42.98\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\num Something else I\u0026#8217;m going to suggest is we\u0026#8217;ll talk about is so how do you see 3D printing ah coming into this as well? So okay yeah timber actual timber ah planks and whatnot have to be cut and transported. um Presumably it\u0026#8217;s not going to be as strong. But if you could 3D print a wood kind of material or or even concrete, I guess, like although even a green concrete, that\u0026#8217;s going to further help improve the possibilities really, isn\u0026#8217;t it?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:14.48\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nwith structural design and ability yeah yeah so you\u0026#8217;ve got the design part of it then there\u0026#8217;s the actual building the building so with 3d printing you can be more even more precise couldn\u0026#8217;t you with where you\u0026#8217;re placing the materials and and whatnot fair enough yep\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:15.71\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nah When it comes to 3D printing, is what you\u0026#8217;re saying?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:24.10\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nhu\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:30.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nhe Yeah, I think building information modeling is, I would say, really the easiest way to go about that. And you can\u0026#8217;t really 3D print unless you have a BIM model of something.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:44.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo if you already have a BIM model of it, I think 3D printing is would be more of a waste. you just You just don\u0026#8217;t want to waste more materials than you have to, essentially. um But I see where you\u0026#8217;re coming from because it would look really cool.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:56.10\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut. well that but but and myself very well I think it\u0026#8217;s like you you take the model, the AIs help build it, that\u0026#8217;s then like the like sending to a printer, that\u0026#8217;s like goes to 3D printer.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:56.64\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nI would love to 3D print like a little little model of our buildings. That would be amazing.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:06.82\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nUh-huh.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:13.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThe ability of moving being able to move a nozzle around or I don\u0026#8217;t know, I\u0026#8217;m talking nonsense, just gives perhaps potentially could make it even more efficient with regards to materials.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:26.29\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nLike visually seeing something is what you\u0026#8217;re saying, like visually be able to see and really\u0026#8230;\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:26.47\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nhow can i explain with\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:31.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nPresumably the BIM systems now and the and the AI systems you have now are predicated on ah human engineers then building it on site with standard technologies, right? Like to be built shuttering or whatnot or or prefabricated parts and things like that. I\u0026#8217;m obviously not explaining myself very well. i i could see it Like a 3D printer you can make in a,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:57.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYou can just change materials as you go in, as you\u0026#8217;re printing the building, basically. just Like a 3D printed and plastic model.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:04.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nHmm. Okay. I think I say, yeah, I see where you\u0026#8217;re coming from. I would say, honestly, that would probably be most useful for the contractors. Like people are actually building, uh, the building, uh, when it comes to the, because when it comes to just the design aspect is, um, what we\u0026#8217;re, what I\u0026#8217;m involved with.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:15.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:23.49\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYou seeing it in a BIM model is pretty sufficient, but when it comes to building it, it could probably aid in building them if, when it comes to the contractor work, right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:32.76\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:33.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:33.16\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo it\u0026#8217;s kind of finding the point points up in it from the architect to you guys, then to the contractor.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:38.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:38.92\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nUm, yeah. Oh, cool.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:40.66\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nThe contractor sometimes has in-house engineers, by the way.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:40.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnyway, that\u0026#8217;s true.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:45.36\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nThis gets more complicated. so Hold on, it\u0026#8217;s gonna get more complicated. But yeah, they sometimes have their own ah design team, which they call building design build projects.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:57.46\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight. enough topic there, sorry.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:00.97\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, no worries.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:00.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nright like but last Last question I\u0026#8217;ve got here, um if given free reign to innovate using AI in your projects, what would you prioritise to revolutionise structural analysis and design?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:13.40\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, mouthful.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:15.39\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes, that is a mouthful. What would I prioritize? I would prioritize\u0026#8230; There\u0026#8217;s a lot of\u0026#8230; and all Everything we talked about is priority right now. The sustainability aspect of it, priority, the the way it\u0026#8217;s going to incorporate it automatically, building codes codes and regulations, priority, the way it would um give us suggestions on how tocc create it to achieve the most efficient design when it comes to the layout of the building.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:46.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat suggestion is also a priority. So being able to really seamlessly and create incorporate it into the softwares that we use, as long as we have that, then it\u0026#8217;s going to be able to achieve all the things that I listed, essentially.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:59.21\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nFantastic. So all of the above basically andjag and jargon.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:01.58\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nOh, yes. ah The answer is ah D, all the above.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:03.21\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nah Fantastic. That\u0026#8217;s all my questions.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:08.34\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nOK.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:08.71\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nIs there anything else you\u0026#8217;d like to add you think we haven\u0026#8217;t perhaps haven\u0026#8217;t touched on the audience should know about?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:15.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nI don\u0026#8217;t think so. We talked about, I think we talked about a lot of great stuff. So yeah, I don\u0026#8217;t think so. Thank you so much, Chris, for your time.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:24.06\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nNo problem at all. In that case, with that, thank you for your time, Sina. That was very interesting.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:30.07\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina Flynn\u003cbr /\u003e\nAwesome. Talk to you later.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eThat concludes this episode of Lexicon.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eThank you all for tuning in and being our guest today.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eFollow our social media channels for the latest science and technology news. (Also) Don’t forget to subscribe to IE+ for premium insights and exclusive content!\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eGoodbye for now.\u003c/p\u003e\n","episode_number":"72","sponsor_image":null,"sponsor_name":null,"sponsor_url":null,"hosts":[{"name":"Christopher McFadden","title":"Host","biography":"\u003cp\u003eChristopher graduated from Cardiff University in 2004 with a Masters Degree in Geology. Since then, he has worked exclusively within the Built Environment, Occupational Health and Safety and Environmental Consultancy industries. He is a qualified and accredited Energy Consultant, Green Deal Assessor and Practitioner member of IEMA. Chris’s main interests range from Science and Engineering, Military and Ancient History to Politics and Philosophy.\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/avatars/XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","title":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","name":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","description":"N/A","alt_text":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","reference":null}}],"speakers":[{"name":"Sina Flynn","title":"Guest","biography":"\u003cp\u003eSina Flynn, PE, is a senior structural engineer and project manager at Little Diversified Architectural Consulting. With over seven years of experience, she has led the design and management of diverse architectural projects across the United States, specializing in steel building structures.\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina is a pioneer in integrating AI solutions into structural design, driving efficiency, sustainability, and innovation. She holds a Master of Science in Civil and Environmental Engineering.\u003cbr /\u003e\nShe is pursuing an MBA at the Kellogg School of Management to further her mission of advancing cutting-edge engineering practices.\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/amazon-cover-v2.png","title":"amazon-cover-v2.png","name":"amazon-cover-v2.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"amazon-cover-v2.png","reference":null}}],"introductions":"\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eToday, we sit down with \u003ca href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/notifications/?filter=all\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eSina Flynn\u003c/a\u003e, PE, a highly experienced structural engineer and project manager at \u003ca href=\"https://www.littleonline.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eLittle Diversified Architectural Consulting\u003c/a\u003e, to uncover how AI is revolutionizing structural design. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eFrom automating workflows to enhancing collaboration, Sina shares how AI drives innovation, efficiency, and sustainability in architecture and engineering. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\n","host_introductions":null,"speakers_introductions":null,"player_code":"https://interestingengineering.com/podcast/lexicon/ai-powered-architecture-redefining-the-future-of-design-and-sustainability","publish_date":"2025-01-09T16:22:41+00:00","publish_date_detail":"Jan 9, 2025 11:22 AM EST","status":1,"page_title":"AI-Powered Architecture: Redefining the Future of Design and Sustainability","keywords":"AI","description":"","seo_title":"AI-Powered Architecture: Redefining the Future of Design and Sustainability - Interesting Engineering","og_title":"AI-Powered Architecture: Redefining the Future of Design and Sustainability - Interesting Engineering","og_image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/amazon-cover-v2.png","title":"amazon-cover-v2.png","name":"amazon-cover-v2.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"amazon-cover-v2.png","reference":null},"og_url":null,"og_type":null,"main_image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/amazon-cover-v2.png","title":"amazon-cover-v2.png","name":"amazon-cover-v2.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"amazon-cover-v2.png","reference":null}},{"title":"Meet Elora: Monitoring baby wellness with AI","abstract":"Discover how Elora uses AI to revolutionize baby care, offering modern parents insights and peace of mind.","slug":"meet-elora-monitoring-baby-wellness-with-ai","transcript":"\u003cp\u003eWelcome to today\u0026#8217;s episode of Lexicon! I am Christopher McFadden, a contributing writer for Interesting Engineering.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eIn this episode of Lexicon, we explore how AI is transforming parenting with Shauli Gur Arieh, Co-Founder \u0026amp; CEO of LittleOne.Care.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eDiscover how their groundbreaking baby wellness monitor, Elora, goes beyond traditional devices, providing parents with real-time, personalized insights into their baby’s well-being.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eBefore getting into today’s episode, here’s something to elevate your 2025. \u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eLevel up your knowledge with IE+! Subscribe today to access exclusive premium articles enriched with expert insights, and enjoy members-only technical newsletters designed to keep you ahead in technology and science. Subscribe now!\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eNow, let’s continue with today’s episode.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:00.90\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nShaoli, thanks for joining us. How are you today?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:04.36\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nGreat, how are you Chris?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:06.14\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nVery well, thank you. Thanks for joining us. um For our audience\u0026#8217;s benefit, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, please?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:13.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes, definitely. And thank you, Chris, for hosting me on this remarkable podcast. um so So the Laura Baby Wellness Monitor is ah truly a game changer in the world of baby technology.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:18.93\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah might pleasure\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:28.25\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nUnlike other baby monitors that focus mainly on nighttime, Laura goes several steps further by helping parents improve their baby\u0026#8217;s well-being at every hour of the day.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:40.67\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nSince it accompanies the baby everywhere, essentially Elora is not about monitoring, it\u0026#8217;s about understanding. So here is how it works. Elora uses a combination of sensors to collect data on a variety of factors, like the baby\u0026#8217;s activity, crying, sleep cycles, care quality, and also the developmental environment of the baby.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:07.64\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt uses this data to create a comprehensive picture of the baby\u0026#8217;s well-being on the Parents app. In few glances, just few, and very quickly, parents can know their standard of care is met and that their baby is getting the nurturing environment they need.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:27.58\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nand they parents can also share it all all this unique insight about their baby with relatives and baby experts. So, to dig in, one of the unique aspects of Elora is that it\u0026#8217;s a 24-7 monitor and walks everywhere.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:47.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nParents who choose Elora understand that their baby\u0026#8217;s well-being is much more than just night-time monitoring. A well-fed baby is more active. An active baby s sleepf sleeps better and all three together allow healthy development.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:04.51\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo Elora supports this by providing insight around the clock, both about activity and sleep and feeding and and nurturing environment of the baby, no matter where the baby is.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:20.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nand And another thing that sets Elora apart is its AI-driven analysis. The AI isn\u0026#8217;t just passively collecting data. It\u0026#8217;s actively learning and adapting. For instance, if Elora notice a shift in your baby\u0026#8217;s sleep pattern, it will clearly appear on the parent\u0026#8217;s app.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:43.69\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nwhere they can advise with baby experts about potential issues of or adjustments in the baby\u0026#8217;s sleep environment. This ah approach proactive approach is where AI really shines. It can predict and advise rather than just react.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:06.53\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd we can we can go on about other crucial features like air quality monitoring that\u0026#8217;s ah very unique on the Elora baby wellness monitor. And it\u0026#8217;s incredibly important because the air and your baby breathes but can significantly impact their health. Elora can alert you to changes in air quality and suggest ways to improve it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:35.54\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo also the user interface, for example, ah quite different from traditional and baby wellness monitor or baby monitors. We\u0026#8217;ve designed the Elora to be incredibly user-friendly so parents can easily open the app and understand the insights it provides. um Our goal is to make the technology as supportive and intuitive as possible.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:04.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nand help parents to not just monitor but actively improve their baby\u0026#8217;s wellness. With Elora, parents gain peace of mind knowing they\u0026#8217;re equipped with the tools to ensure the baby\u0026#8217;s overall well-being. It\u0026#8217;s not just about catching issues, it\u0026#8217;s about fostering a healthier, happier,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:30.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nenvironment for your babies and their growth.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:40.20\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay. So does it, does it need internet connection to work then? Presumably the Laura.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:46.50\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nah ah yeah I thought you were asking about the conversation, not about the device, okay the internet connection. Yes.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:57.45\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\n\u0026lt;unk\u0026gt; you eat the device Okay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:58.18\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:01.36\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes. Okay, so let\u0026#8217;s go back to the question.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:02.84\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd it\u0026#8217;s, it, um, is it like visual only? No, wearables.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:09.77\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo the device is\u0026#8230;\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:10.40\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThere\u0026#8217;s no wearables or anything on the babies.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:13.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nOh, just the opposite. Since it\u0026#8217;s it works everywhere and 24-7, it\u0026#8217;s a wearable device that attaches to the baby\u0026#8217;s shirt and lets you know everything about the baby as if you were with the baby, next to the baby be all the time.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:26.70\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:33.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nand And with just ah you know ah one one or twice in the baby\u0026#8217;s ah ah day, you attach it to the baby\u0026#8217;s shirt.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:34.28\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:44.68\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd then by the end of the day, you just put it back in the docking station to charge the device while the baby is taking a shower. And then ah you you you get all the information ah about the full day and not just the nighttime.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:56.12\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:04.56\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nHmm. Okay, great. So how does AI contribute to to understanding a baby\u0026#8217;s needs? what What inspired the development of this technology?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:17.14\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\num All right, so let\u0026#8217;s dive into how AI is playing the crucial role in the development of our technology. The inspiration behind developing Elora began from the desire to give parents the deepest insight insights into their baby\u0026#8217;s well-being, pretty much like smartwatches did to our well-being, to the adult\u0026#8217;s well-being.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:45.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nAs parents, we always want to ensure that our little ones are healthy, happy, and thriving. However, there are so many subtle cues that babies give which can be easily missed or misunderstood.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:02.55\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nThis is where AI comes as a game changer. And I\u0026#8217;ll explain.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:08.34\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nMm hmm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:09.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nArtificial intelligence allows Elora to analyze vast amounts of data in real time. So drawing from a multitude of sensor that monitors a baby\u0026#8217;s breathing patterns, sleep cycles, and environmental factors, and processing this data, the AI can identify and and identify patterns and correlation that might not be immediately apparent to the human eye.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:38.04\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nJust for and as an example, if a baby is less active, they a i can ah this just utterly less active the AI can this with environmental data to see if fluctuations in their room temperature or air quality ah might be a contributing factor.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:02.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\num One of the most remarkable aspects of the AI is this context is its ability to learn and adapt over time. So as the AI accumulates more data and about a specific baby, it becomes better at recognizing the baby\u0026#8217;s unique patterns and needs.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:24.71\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nThis means the advice and insight it provides become increasingly personalized and precise. For instance, it might learn that a particular baby ten tends to sleep better after eating a specific food and will provide recommendation accordingly.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:44.58\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo the development of this technology was inspired by the potential to alleviate some of the anxiety and uncertainty that comes with parenting. We wanted to create a tool that not only monitors but actually helps parents understand their baby\u0026#8217;s needs in a more intuitive and informed way by leveraging our AI were able to turn raw data, which can be carried when it\u0026#8217;s just raw, into actionable insights that parents can use to make informed decisions about their baby\u0026#8217;s care.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:30.71\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\num Yes.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:30.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay, just a bit like a digital parent then, like an extra digital parent if you like.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:33.31\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nso\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:38.93\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nit\u0026#8217;s wait you know One of our experts told us it\u0026#8217;s a bit like an extension of the parent because it it can only do what you can do and you know much less because you\u0026#8217;re the parent.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:48.09\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:56.27\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut when you\u0026#8217;re at or when you\u0026#8217;re with your baby, but your memory is not no infinite, so it helps you. It\u0026#8217;s kind of extension that helps you and to get the insights that you need about ah and the baby. you know it\u0026#8217;s It used to be like a calculator, but now with AI,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:23.34\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nthat\u0026#8217;s like AI for babies. Like, ah you know, what this is said chat GPT and Gemini, it just ah do it for the the for your baby, the wellbeing that you get for yourself, for adults. Now you can have it ah for the for the one that you care about most.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:47.18\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, so for a first-time parent, and yeah, it\u0026#8217;s like an AI add-on to your instinct, if you like, to help train your instinct, if you like, as you learn the basics.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:55.97\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nso and um Yes. Yes, no. If you like, ah back on those days, we used to live in a village, you\u0026#8217;re of course familiar with this.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:15.64\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nanalogy. And we used still to live in a village where our relatives and the whole tribe actually helped us to ah raise a child, that you need a whole village to raise a child.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:29.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd in today\u0026#8217;s world, it\u0026#8217;s AI plays the role of the village it in helping to raise a child.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:34.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:38.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nJust as a village wisdom comes from collective experience with hundreds of babies, our AI has the capabilities to analyze and remember countless events, so this vast knowledge allows Elora to provide parents with the wise advice when they want it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e12:00.11\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\num So it sees what works best across various situations and offers tailored guidance that can significantly significantly benefit from the babies and the parent.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e12:01.38\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nah check\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e12:06.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nGotcha.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e12:16.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOK, so presumably it can pick up on potential health problems, I guess, with the baby as well, I guess.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e12:26.18\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes, starting with the ability to know and remember that you took a medicine or a vitamin, a baby doesn\u0026#8217;t take it on its own, and you need some synchronization between all the caregivers. So we for the parent\u0026#8217;s request, actually, we created the capability, a speech-to take-text capability. So if you just touch the LoRa device,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e12:58.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou can say whatever you want and it will appear on the baby and and the parent\u0026#8217;s app or if you share it with the caregiver, it just appears there.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:07.12\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nHmm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:10.48\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo if you gave vitamin, it doesn\u0026#8217;t matter if you gave a vitamin or the caregiver, the nanny, the babysitter, the father, the mother, It\u0026#8217;s just there and it\u0026#8217;s kind of synchronization between everyone. So that\u0026#8217;s just you know the the simple um the simple view. But when you take it into a more advanced and to an AI analysis, then the correlation and connection between taking a medicine and how active you are how about the baby\u0026#8217;s sleep\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:46.80\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nor even about the baby\u0026#8217;s activity, different activities, ah it can all be ah ah analyzed by AI and presented to the parent.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:00.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nFantastic. Is there any reason you chose the name Allura out of interest?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:06.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes, definitely. Our very first baby who used the our monitor, it wasn\u0026#8217;t yet ah sold, it was just the alpha stage.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:07.93\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nokay\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:17.09\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nHer name was Ellora and we liked the name. And it\u0026#8217;s also, our logo is an elephant. and that has a very deep reason. ah Elephants are a very um social animal, they live in a pack which is a family and they are led by the wise and the smart um and elephant mother or elephant friend mother.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:44.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\num And they they are very sensitive, even though they are big, they are very sensitive, and they hear very well, and they ah sense every motion, and they they translate it to the today ah use of the pack. That\u0026#8217;s the most important for the pack, is the newborns.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:07.54\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo, that\u0026#8217;s why we chose an elephant for our logo. And Ellora combines perfectly with an elephant. and So, that\u0026#8217;s Ellora the elephant. That\u0026#8217;s our our name and logo.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:21.31\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nah Super. And they never forget, right? Elephants. Yes, very appropriate. So with the device, especially the artificial intelligence handling sensitive family data, as you\u0026#8217;ve mentioned, how does your company ensure user privacy and data security?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:42.96\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nso So yes, ensuring user privacy and data security is the top priority at LittleOne.Care, especially given the the nature of the the data you mentioned.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:45.14\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nBig question.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:58.70\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nah We understand that parents entrust us with their most precious assets, which is their baby, and we take this responsibility very seriously. So the first and at first and foremost, all data collected by Elora is encrypted, both in transit and at rest, meaning if it\u0026#8217;s on the device, it\u0026#8217;s still encrypted.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:23.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nThis um means that any data being transmitted also between the device and our servers is also and encrypted, so um it protects it protected by state-of-the-art encryption technology at all times. um This of course helps to prevent unauthorized access and and ensure that the data remains secure.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:48.23\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd we also implemented strict access control with within our inside organization. So actually the vast majority of the data is only accessed by the AI system, so no human sees it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:06.50\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\ni am But when we do need to do it, so only authorized personnel with a legitimate need ah can access to this minority of the data.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:17.52\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd even then, the access is is granted on on only what this personnel needs to know.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:20.07\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nMm hmm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:25.54\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nah So we regularly review the update and end the update. Our access control policies to ensure they meet the highest standards of security.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:38.72\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:39.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nand So we\u0026#8217;re fully compliant with relevant data production, regulation, GDPR and so on.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:39.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSorry.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:46.83\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nThis means we have robust processes in place to manage and protect user data, ah including obtaining implicit consent from parents before collecting any ah explicit sorry consent from parents before ah collecting any information and allowing parents to review the data and also to delete it. So all in GDPR.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:13.21\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\num\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:14.36\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo the parents are obviously the administrator of the account.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:14.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\num\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:19.57\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThey authorise people to ah users like a doctor, whoever whatever else I see.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:22.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nthat\u0026#8217;s ah they and they As a parent, when you get the a lower ah awareness baby wellness monitor, then the first thing you ah you do is to approve who you want to see the data. Usually it\u0026#8217;s ah your spouse, but yeah it can be only you on your own.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:45.56\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd if you want to share it, then you choose who to share it and you can always revert it and you can always delete all the data and that is relevant to your baby. It\u0026#8217;s by the end of the day, your data.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:00.40\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nlike Cool, excellent. um So in what ways do you think Elora can ease the challenges of parenting and improve early childhood wellness? You\u0026#8217;ve touched on it a bit, but um and a bit more.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:11.29\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes, but maybe let\u0026#8217;s say it in one word, it gives them time. The major desire and of parents is for their baby to to be well, while the major time of parenting goes on guesswork.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:17.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:29.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nso our Our most encouraging feedbacks from parents that use the Elora is that it saves them time because we know they and they and that\u0026#8217;s the the the kind of feedback that we we like most because we know\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:31.61\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:51.07\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nah This time they saved, they can now spend it with their baby. So the most important thing that parents want is just to be there with the baby and let\u0026#8217;s worry, let\u0026#8217;s guess, just be there.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:05.21\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nso especially in early stages, it can be incredibly challenging and overwhelming. And there are so many factors to consider when it comes to a baby\u0026#8217;s wellbeing and safety. And it can be tough for parents to keep track of everything on their own. um This is where Ellora kind of shines.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:34.28\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nah offering substantial substantial support to ease these challenges and improve early childhood wellness. Just for example, Elora reflects on the parents app in which locations and caregivers the baby was happier.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:53.47\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\njust recognize it by laughter and crying. And not just happier, also more active and you know ah sleeping better and so on. It can easily be a pivotal information.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:09.02\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nwhen choosing a babysitter or a daycare.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:11.12\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nHmm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:11.76\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo um it can it can just shorten the time when you search for for a caregiver and ah i with our experience we met a lot of parents that it takes them a while and of course we understand why.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:12.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nHmm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:30.58\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\num Additionally, Elora provides the recommendations, personalized recommendations based on the baby\u0026#8217;s unique data. So this could include advice on optimal feeding times, ideal sleep environments, or even activities to promote healthy development. This tailored insight can help parents create a more structured and supportive routine which is essential for the baby\u0026#8217;s growth and well-being. Ellora also plays a role in reducing parent parental and anxiety. We hear a lot about the parental anxiety, especially when it comes to monitor the\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:22.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nthey ah They don\u0026#8217;t want just to get more information, more data. They want to know what to do with it because it\u0026#8217;s already overwhelming, so you want something to ease it. And the kind the constant worry about whether their baby is healthy and safe can be very stressful for parents.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:44.83\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo with Elora, they can have peace of mind knowing that they are equipped with a tool that provides accurate and timely information and about their baby status, when they need it, and what they need to know. So this confidence can significantly significantly reduce stress and allow parents to focus more on enjoying time with their baby.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:10.83\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt sounds pretty sophisticated. So I wonder what\u0026#8217;s the major hurdle you had to overcome when developing the AI?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:16.27\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, it sam yeah, Yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:22.38\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nSure, and I just then to complete the the. The capabilities of the law and the benefit and the value it gives it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:32.32\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nApologies.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:34.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt it acts like a digital advisor that leverages a collection collective wisdom. The AI ability to learn from wide range of data, it allows it to offer advice that might not be immediately obvious, but in general perspective it is. It\u0026#8217;s like having yeah the village that we were werere talking about.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:01.52\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nand experienced caregivers offering their insight all day, um but in a more scientific and data-driven manner.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:13.62\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo when it doesn\u0026#8217;t know the answer, or there are several possibilities, and like you know in the scientific method, it sometimes the answer is unknown.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:14.34\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nUh-huh.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:25.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\na parent can ah contact the baby expert on the app itself. So it\u0026#8217;s not just the AI. The the data is not passed only to the AI. But if the parents want, um they can share it with the with expert on the app and get ah speak to to this experienced professional, get advices, answers.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:51.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nand essentially the comfort ah ah to to to have answer or i am some sort of answer to the question. This can be incredibly reassuring for parents, especially for those who might not ah have a large support network.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:17.53\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nah So so yeah what was, can you remind me your question?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:22.83\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely. Before we come to that though, I just had a thought. so with them oh I forget the name. A baby sort of died randomly in their sleep, caught caught death or something.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:31.44\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes, SIDS, that\u0026#8217;s ideas.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:33.14\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nrepeat and so This could help help stop that, I guess.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:38.38\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\num OK, so SADS is very complicated, and it\u0026#8217;s an acronym for sudden infant death syndrome.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:45.43\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:49.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThank you.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:49.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo the sudden at the beginning it means that we don\u0026#8217;t know why it is it happens.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:50.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s good.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:57.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd when we say when I say we, women I mean humanity. and that The doctors don\u0026#8217;t know why why it happens.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:07.92\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nso We definitely cannot solve ah anything that doctors cannot know.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:15.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:16.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo that\u0026#8217;s ah that\u0026#8217;s relevant, of course, for all the the devices in the market. and What we we do is ah help with things that we we can know.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:30.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo even ah that sort ah of emergency, of course, there\u0026#8217;s ideas. But there are other emergencies that are are well known ah in the world.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:43.55\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nah For example, if the baby falls down, God forbid, then then ah you would want and an an immediate alert on it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:55.40\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nOf course, if the baby cries, that\u0026#8217;s the good situation, then you can hear it. But sometimes you just want to be on the safe side and have an alert and on it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:59.44\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah. wait\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:06.35\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd when you have a wearable device, it just feel it immediately and alert you on the spot. Or ah for for example, ah that does happen sometimes, and that people leave the baby, forget the baby in the car. So it also can alert you on the spot immediately. um So that\u0026#8217;s ah that\u0026#8217;s the ah emergencies that we do deal with.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:36.12\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s a powerful tool then. So, like I said, I was saying, what were some of the major hurdles you faced whilst developing the AI behind Elora?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:47.67\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nOf course.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:47.90\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nIf you\u0026#8217;re able to tell us.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:48.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo definitely. Developing an advanced AI like Ellora is certainly certainly came with its share of challenges. um One of the major hurdles we faced was ensuring the accuracy and reliability of the data being collected. So since we\u0026#8217;re dealing with sensitive aspects of the baby, health and environment, it\u0026#8217;s crucial that the sensors themselves\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:21.04\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nah and the collection mechanism were highly precise and we don\u0026#8217;t and miss anything and we we do it in the right frequency and accuracy and we spent a considerable amount of time testing and calibrating our sensors And of course, since it\u0026#8217;s a wearable device, it\u0026#8217;s and ah very, very small. you know Babies are very small. And we we we cannot have just a smartphone or a smartwatch as a wearable for a baby. We made it very safe for babies and comfortable and small, so it\u0026#8217;s easy for them to live their own life.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:04.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd that also means that our battery is quite small, and that\u0026#8217;s the other side of making the sensors very accurate, so this this kind of a balance between these two. And another significant to challenge, let\u0026#8217;s say,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:24.72\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nwas the integration of multiple data streams into cohesive and actionable system. So it\u0026#8217;s not just ah motion and it\u0026#8217;s not just sound, it\u0026#8217;s sound in motion and area quality and you know different aspect in the in the baby\u0026#8217;s life and um this the motion can affect the breathing patterns which can which is related to ah air quality which can\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:01.09\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\ni am You know, everything affects everything. ah So integrating all this information in a meaningful way requires a sophisticated algorithm them and neural networks and who robust data processing framework. and We had to ensure that the AI could not only handle this data, ah but also analyze it fast enough to provide timely and relevant insights.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:30.93\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nGreat.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:31.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\num yeah oh yes yes okay okay i\u0026#8217;m here thank you they are very accurate\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:56.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo um another ah one of our complexities ah was working in the audio and motion domains.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:08.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo while many AI systems focus on vision and neural language processing, a lower requires us um to dive deeply into understanding audio signals and physical movements, motions.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:25.65\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nah dispose unique challenges as we needed to develop our own algorithms and and make them accurate accurate accurate enough to interpret and respond to these different types of data and the nuances of baby\u0026#8217;s movement and sounds are subtle and different. and So it requires a level of precision and adaptability in our AI that was not ah readily available in off-the-shelf solution or any kind of solution. ah So\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:07.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nthe that brings me to the field of infant care is ah surprisingly little labeled data available. So for instance, the only vast public data set regarding babies um is height and weight records.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:24.72\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nMm\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:27.76\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nah And most of this data was collected back in the 70s.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:28.04\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nhmm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:33.21\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt means that it\u0026#8217;s very hard because babies babies are different, ah very different. And the the only data that was collected was this height and weight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:46.32\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd what it means about us that we had to create our own data set from scratch. As a leading company in the Babies field, we had a unique opportunity to gather and analyze new data, enabling us to discover fresh insights that were never discovered before that we can provide to parents.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:13.35\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nand that was both a challenge and a privilege for us as it allows us to pioneer new understanding and set a standard for future research and development.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:29.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nFantastic, absolutely. Yeah, so especially with, I know I mentioned it before, so I\u0026#8217;ll go back to it, but ah infant in death syndrome. Perhaps, unfortunately, you may find a reason behind it, perhaps, from your monitors.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:39.31\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:47.60\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nMaybe.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:47.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nah that that with the b yeah That would be ah a dream to find the the reason and be able to solve it, and a nightma a nightmare to find the reason and not be able to solve it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:48.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nHopefully not.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:59.62\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, exactly. yeah I don\u0026#8217;t want it to happen, but it would be incredibly a massive breakthrough, and but hopefully not. Anyway, so where do you see the integration of AI and internet with things in childcare a heading into the next decade?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:21.39\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nOh, ah and the integration.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:22.55\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nGood question.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:24.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, it\u0026#8217;s a very interesting. It\u0026#8217;s a lot of components in this question.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:29.38\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:29.95\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nand and The AI and IoT in childcare is\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:30.76\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nit\u0026#8217;s best weekend\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:39.21\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nwill probably revolutionalize and the way we approach early childhood wellness in the coming decade. ah The advancement advancement we\u0026#8217;re seeing now currently are just the tip of the iceberg and the potential for future development is incredibly exciting.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:59.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\num One of the key trends I anticipate in the increased personalization of child care is making it even more personalized. As AI and IoT devices become more sophisticated, they will be able to provide even more tailored insights and recommendations for each individual child, like they do to us, the adults. ah This means that rather than relying on generalized advice that you can find in Google or even in chat GPT, which becoming more personalized as you provide the data. Now, parent will be will have access to highly specific information that takes into account also the child unique patterns, preferences and developmental stage, you name it. So we can also\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:58.20\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nexpect to see greater emphasis on holistic wellness. A future eye-driven system will likely integrate data from various aspects of the child life, not just health metrics but also emotional and cognitive development. This could involve analyzing data from smart toys or educational apps and even social interaction to provide a comprehensive picture of the child\u0026#8217;s overall well-being. This of course has to come with the\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:34.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nwhen um only when the mindset of us as the society is ready for it. um so Of course, there are always the early birds that want to monitor everything, but I think as time will progress, we will see it more and more as we saw a smartphone and then a smartwatch for ah personal well-being.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:58.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nit will become it will ah you know move farther on. um Maybe another exciting development in the potential of AI n naoti and is early detection and intervention for health issues. um but We sort of mentioned it, but by continuously monitoring a wide range of health indicator, this system can identify potential problems\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:30.57\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nbefore they become serious and prompt parents or caregivers to take actions and this is especially important with babies because the ah earlier the intervention the greater the impact And babies cannot talk to us.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:49.40\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou know Some people do not talk, but most of them do.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:50.56\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:53.20\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut babies, all of them, most of them cannot talk when there is an issue. And and the AI can definitely ah help detecting it when it has an IoT device that senses it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:09.09\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nFantastic. um\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:12.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThe lore at the moment, you just it\u0026#8217;s a clip on device, isn\u0026#8217;t it? Do you have any plans to maybe, I don\u0026#8217;t know, produce a range of baby suits with the lore built in?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:16.60\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:25.35\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay, and so our and thought behind the and the attachment method for the for our monitor was to ah interfere less but in the least way possible to the regular life.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:41.53\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nokay\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:43.72\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd while other ah and monitors might have suits or, you know, cameras and so on, it\u0026#8217;s great for their purposes, but it\u0026#8217;s very limiting because it\u0026#8217;s only in nighttime and on, you know, it\u0026#8217;s not it\u0026#8217;s not even sleep time because baby sleeps everywhere, as apparently you probably know.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:58.69\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay. Yeah, okay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:06.71\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:06.81\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\num but ah But it\u0026#8217;s a focus of nighttime. And since it\u0026#8217;s nighttime, then you have your own suit or your own pyjama and you just ah you wear it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:19.65\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nah But our approach is ah the well-being of the baby, which involves activity, feeding, healthy environment and so on. ah So if you want to be holistic and see all those aspects and elements, you have to be and go with the baby whenever he is.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:44.53\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nNo, that was fair enough. Fair enough. Just wondering. and so and Given the name of the device, presumably you\u0026#8217;ve had good feedback from parents. and and Generally speaking, are parents happy with the device?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e42:01.13\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah definite Generally speaking, yes. They are happy with the device. there are some you know that We always learn, no matter what the feedback is, ah we\u0026#8217;re happy that most of the feedback is good. But we learn also from and maybe weird ah situations. but Maybe I\u0026#8217;ll tell you about um One of the last positive side of the feedback was the we had a parent telling us that they have had moved to a different daycare thanks to Alora. That sounds like thanks to Alora but you know it\u0026#8217;s a\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e42:42.66\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nnot and Not what we expected when when using Elora. On the other hand, we received the feedback from parents who find Elora\u0026#8217;s data valuable in ah complementing care caregivers. For instance, a parent was happy to tell us about the grandmother talking to the baby. So thanks to the device, um the parents were able to thank the grandmother and know that she\u0026#8217;s talking with the baby muchsmore much more than everyone else, including including the parents themselves. So that\u0026#8217;s, of course, enhancing the the baby\u0026#8217;s verbal development. And we all know how\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e43:30.83\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\num Verbal development and timemy time ah for the physical development is very important. So um that this was ah ah um this was a very happy feedback that we received that people told us, wow, I actually went to my mother to say her thank you, not just for taking care of the baby, but actually ah helping with the development of the baby.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e43:46.39\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOh, wait.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e44:02.11\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e44:02.28\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\num yes and Another sort of feedback and we received about their lower app. Parents ah appreciate the clear visualology visualization and straightforward recommendations. They they love it you know straightforward and not have to look for it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e44:24.48\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nand They\u0026#8217;ve told us that having access to the data and insight had helped them make more informed decisions about their baby\u0026#8217;s care, um and which in turn of course improved the baby\u0026#8217;s overall wellness.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e44:42.19\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nand Parents have noted that the air quality monitoring feature has been but particularly useful. they They like it, they love it, they are aware of it, and especially for those living in urban areas or regions.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e44:59.41\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\num With varying air quality, they like it a lot, knowing that Elora is constantly monitoring the environment and and alerting or notifying on changes ah has been a huge relief for those parents.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e45:18.68\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nand yeah The feedback that we get from parents parents is also significantly significantly influencing our ongoing development. and We\u0026#8217;re constantly working to refine and enhance the features that Alora suggests to parents. For instance, we\u0026#8217;ve added the to parent to the parent\u0026#8217;s ah request speech to text capabilities that we were mentioning.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e45:47.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nah So parents just touch the device, the lower monitor, and say whatever they want for and the next ah four or five seconds. And this pops up on the on the app. And it synchronizes everyone about this ah this ah voice tag. But it also ah helps the AI to get more nuanced insights about the baby and help parents with this as well.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e46:16.59\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd overall, the feedback from parents is invaluable in shaping the evolution of the LoRa monitor.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e46:17.47\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nlike\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e46:25.62\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd it not only validates the impact of the technology, but also it guides us for future continuous improvement ah to better serve families.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e46:38.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely fantastic. I think I\u0026#8217;ve got to ask, what what age range ah is Ellora designed for? Of babies?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e46:46.02\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo we designed, definitely. We designed the ROA for the ages 0 to 24 months, so since birth to 22 years old.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e46:54.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e46:56.48\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd actually, ah the first thing that we we did when we established the company was talking to parents. Before we touched any computer, any algorithm, any electronics, we came to parents and were interviewing them.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e47:15.60\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd we asked them, what age do you think this ah monitor should go? you know We had an idea about this 24-7 monitoring that works everywhere. And they said, until the baby ah can talk. When the baby starts talking, then or you know kind of a can tell what happened in the past or what he wants in the future, the baby he or she wants.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e47:42.04\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\none um Then that\u0026#8217;s the the time to give parents say another as ah set of features. But we focus now between zero and 24 months.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e47:56.70\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nGotcha. That leads on to the last question. so Do you envisage Elora\u0026#8217;s capabilities sort being expanded to other stages of childhood um or different areas of Elora\u0026#8217;s?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e48:06.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes. Yes, and um also ah even even more than this. So, expanding the lower capabilities is part of our vision at Little One Care. We When our primary focus has been at the early stage of child life, the baby and toddler, we recognize that the principle and technology behind the LoRa can be beneficial at to various other stages of childhood and ah elderly.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e48:44.49\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nah One of the most\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e48:44.66\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e48:46.28\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, I\u0026#8217;ll get to it. that ah We had this junction and we when we started and the the company. We chose that ah and and the baby stage, ah but it can go everywhere. So one of the most exciting possibilities is extending Elora monitoring an advisory feature into toddlerhood and beyond that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e49:11.69\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo as children grow, their needs evolve. And so the challenges faced by parents, and they can now talk, but you know it\u0026#8217;s a blessing, but it also a new brings new challenges.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e49:16.07\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nMm hmm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e49:25.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo by leveraging ah the same AI and sensors technology, um Using the same sensor and even improving the AI, Elora could continue to provide valuable insight into areas such as developmental milestone, nutrition, physical activity, and emotional well-being. For example, monitoring the toddler\u0026#8217;s activity level and providing the com recommendation for age ah-appropriate exercise or ah play activities could help from promote healthy physical development.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e50:02.38\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\num We also see potential in integrating Elora into ah the broader ecosystem of family health and wellness. Imagine a system where Elora doesn\u0026#8217;t just stop at monitoring the baby but also helps support the entire family\u0026#8217;s well-being.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e50:12.04\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWhat?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e50:22.19\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\num This could include features like stress level monitoring for parents, reminders for family health health checkups, or even suggestions for family activities that promote bonding and relaxation. By creating a more holistic wellness platform, we can ensure that the whole family benefits from the insights and recommendations provided by the technology.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e50:48.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nLet\u0026#8217;s see, babe.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e50:48.94\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\num Moreover, there is potential to extend expand the lower capabilities to address specific health concerns or um conditions. ah For instance, parents for children with asthma or allergies could benefit from from more tailored monitoring and advice related to air quality and environmental factors. Similarly, children with sleep disorders or sleep issues um could receive specialized support and recommendations based on the same technology, same sensor and improved AI related to it. um\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e51:35.28\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo as they I and mentioned, ah one particularly particularly exciting expansion or adoption for the lower creep abilities is supporting elderly care. and Just as lower provides real-time monitoring and personalized insights for baby, the same technology could be used to monitor and support the health of and well-being of older their adults. For instance, Elora could track as um vital signs of the adult movements, ah patterns, and environmental factors to ensure that elderly individuals are safe and healthy. um It could provide alerts for potential issues, reminding remind them to take medications.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e52:28.34\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\num and offer suggestions for activities that promote physical and cognitive wellness. and This adaptation is really not straightforward, but as we envision it, where we we see, and we we were talking about the IoT and AI, so this combination is ah is the starting point to gather the the data, gather the information, understand ah what people do and what do good for them, ah how their activity is doing, how their activity impacts them, and by that we commend to others ah based on this ah in information.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e53:20.23\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nand so Overall, ah one our vision for Laura is to evolve into a comprehensive wellness platform that supports individuals and families at every stage of life. Starting with baby, which is the you know very significantly and very um the the beginning of life, then keep going for the rest.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e53:49.65\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo by continuously innovating and expanding our capabilities, we aim to provide tools that empower people to lead healthier, happier lives. um This journey is ongoing and we\u0026#8217;re excited and about the many possibilities that ah Laya had.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e54:10.53\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nah Cradle to grave, as they say.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e54:14.56\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, we start with the craters.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e54:15.11\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nequity\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e54:18.48\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nah Brilliant. and That is all my questions. and Is there anything else you\u0026#8217;d like to add before we before we wrap up?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e54:26.29\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nah Just ah thanking you again, Chris, for ah inviting me and hosting and me and littleone.care as so on my name and and the whole team.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e54:39.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nand Thank you very much.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e54:40.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely our pleasure. a\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e54:42.65\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd of course, ah Merry Christmas.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e54:45.01\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThank you very much. With that then, thank you for your time, Shoudi. That was very, very interesting.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e54:53.40\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nThank you.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e54:54.32\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThank you.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e54:54.50\u003cbr /\u003e\nShauli\u003cbr /\u003e\nThank you very much.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eThat concludes this episode of Lexicon.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eThank you all for tuning in and being our guest today.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eFollow our social media channels for the latest science and technology news. Also, don’t forget to subscribe to IE+ for premium insights and exclusive content!\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eGoodbye for now.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\n","episode_number":"71","sponsor_image":null,"sponsor_name":null,"sponsor_url":null,"hosts":[{"name":"Christopher McFadden","title":"Host","biography":"\u003cp\u003eChristopher graduated from Cardiff University in 2004 with a Masters Degree in Geology. Since then, he has worked exclusively within the Built Environment, Occupational Health and Safety and Environmental Consultancy industries. He is a qualified and accredited Energy Consultant, Green Deal Assessor and Practitioner member of IEMA. Chris’s main interests range from Science and Engineering, Military and Ancient History to Politics and Philosophy.\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/avatars/XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","title":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","name":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","description":"N/A","alt_text":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","reference":null}}],"speakers":[{"name":"Shauli Gur Arieh","title":"Co-Founder and CEO of LittleOne.Care","biography":"\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://jewishjournal.com/israel/319739/a-father-electrical-engineer-created-a-device-that-helps-understand-baby-talk/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eShauli Gur Arieh\u0026#8217;s\u003c/a\u003e work experience includes being the Co-Founder \u0026amp; CEO of \u003ca href=\"https://www.littleone.care/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eLittleOne.Care\u003c/a\u003e provides parents with a personalized tool to monitor, guard, understand, and improve the baby’s development. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eBefore this, Shauli worked in various roles in the Israel Defense Forces \u0026#8211; Military Intelligence, including as an Embedded Software R\u0026amp;D Team Leader, Software-hardware Project Manager, and Software Researcher and Developer. Shauli also worked as an Avionics System Engineer in the IAF \u0026#8211; Israeli Air Force and as a Cadet in the Talpiot Excellence Program.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eShauli earned a Bachelor of Science (BSc) degree in Computer Science and Physics and a Master of Engineering (MEng) degree in Electrical Engineering, specializing in Signal Processing.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/Shauli-Headshot.jpeg","title":"Shauli-Headshot.jpeg","name":"Shauli-Headshot.jpeg","description":"N/A","alt_text":"Shauli-Headshot.jpeg","reference":null}}],"introductions":"\u003cp\u003eIn this episode of \u003ci\u003eLexicon\u003c/i\u003e, we explore how AI is transforming parenting with \u003ca href=\"https://theorg.com/org/littleone-care/org-chart/shauli-gur-arieh\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eShauli \u003c/a\u003eGur Arieh, Co-Founder \u0026amp; CEO of \u003ca href=\"https://www.littleone.care/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eLittleOne.Car\u003c/a\u003ee.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eDiscover how their groundbreaking baby wellness monitor, Elora, goes beyond traditional devices, providing parents with real-time, personalized insights into their baby’s well-being.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eInspired by this cutting-edge application of AI? Take your expertise to the next level with \u003cstrong\u003eIE Academy\u003c/strong\u003e! Apply now to become an AI Trainer and share your knowledge with aspiring innovators. \u003ca href=\"https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdLpH9OGOh680oaenUC90Z4CPZkuuXk3lrxO0BzwW7M39ZOUQ/viewform?_bhlid=1f60dd98bb94655bf419a2e22237ef68e0dd801e\"\u003eFill out the form\u003c/a\u003e with your details and proposed training topic, and together, let’s shape the future of AI innovation.\u003c/p\u003e\n","host_introductions":null,"speakers_introductions":null,"player_code":"https://interestingengineering.com/podcast/lexicon/meet-elora-monitoring-baby-wellness-with-ai","publish_date":"2025-01-02T14:44:49+00:00","publish_date_detail":"Jan 2, 2025 09:44 AM EST","status":1,"page_title":"Meet Elora: Monitoring baby wellness with AI","keywords":"Elora","description":"","seo_title":"Meet Elora: Monitoring baby wellness with AI - Interesting Engineering","og_title":"Meet Elora: Monitoring baby wellness with AI - Interesting Engineering","og_image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-21.png","title":"1-21.png","name":"1-21.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"1-21.png","reference":null},"og_url":null,"og_type":null,"main_image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-21.png","title":"1-21.png","name":"1-21.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"1-21.png","reference":null}},{"title":"Parametric Architecture: From a Spark to a Career-Defining Journey","abstract":"Join as Hamid Hassanzadeh shares the journey of Parametric Architecture from Instagram to global fame.","slug":"from-toilet-to-twitter-the-rise-of-parametricarchitecture","transcript":"\u003cp\u003eWelcome to today\u0026#8217;s episode of Lexicon! I am Christopher McFadden, a contributing writer for Interesting Engineering.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eIn today\u0026#8217;s episode we are joined by Hamid Hassanzadeh, the visionary founder of Parametric Architecture.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eJoin us as we dive into the inspiring journey of PA from a humble idea born in a bathroom to the global platform it is today.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eBefore getting into our new episode, make sure to check out our latest merch at Interesting Engineering Shop.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eEngineer your style with our t-shirts, mugs and discover new products! Now, let’s continue with today’s episode.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:00.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid, thanks for joining us. How are you today?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:03.49\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nOh, good. Thank you so much. I\u0026#8217;m feeling great. How about you?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:07.70\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nVery well, thank you. Thanks for joining us.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:10.71\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nThank you so much. Thanks for the invitation.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:12.69\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOur pleasure, of course. For our audience\u0026#8217;s benefit, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, please?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:18.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo my name is Hamitha Zanzadeh. I\u0026#8217;m an Iranian architect. I studied architecture in Iran, and I\u0026#8217;ve been living in Istanbul, Turkey for the last 10 years. I\u0026#8217;m mostly focused on the technology and architecture, and run I run the platform called Parametric Architecture.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:40.18\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nFantastic. Thank you. Sorry, I was expecting a bit more.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:42.96\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, okay, I can go deeper.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:44.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand I\u0026#8217;ve got a problem. um Yeah, so can you tell us a little bit about the inspiration behind founding is it parametric architecture? Is it 2016, I believe? What gap in the industry were you trying to fill?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:58.92\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, it goes back to a couple of years ahead, like 2014, 2015, when I was trying to learn these softwares called parametric softwares, where basically a Rhino, Grasshopper, and how to try to implement the visual the scripting into architectural design workflows. So that\u0026#8217;s how I got into the parametric design world. ah And ah Then I started experimenting, then I started using these tools in my own design workflows and day-to-day architecture projects. And somewhere around 2016, as I had the hype and interest in social media as well, I decided to open or establish start a starter page on Instagram called Parametric Architecture.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:52.18\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nand ah ah just to upload my own works and my own visuals that I was doing, basic ideas of exploring the possibilities of ah using these complex design tools. And I started the page in March 2016 and I was right and ah inside the office. I was working as an architect and I was sitting in the toilet one day And I said, Hey, it would be nice to start this page called parametric architecture. Uh, and I just signed out from my own account, signed in as an registered in on Instagram as a new account, parametric architecture username was gotten before.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:37.28\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd I just added a dot in between, parametric dot architecture. That\u0026#8217;s how parametric architecture was born in born in a toilet. And then I come back to my desk in the office. I make a logo P and A on Photoshop. I just upload it. A couple of people follows um based on just the name and the logo. Then I upload my own works on on Instagram. A couple of more people followed. And um I had a ah had a video.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:07.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\npublished on my own account, which was a parametric facade, where all the facade elements were interacting with the audience that was behind them or next to them. It was opening and closing. It was in interactive facade. And I uploaded this one on Instagram in just ah ah one hour. It got 2,000 views. And ah I had just 20 followers. and Can you imagine that? and a couple of famous pages and famous architects put a like on the video as well. And it just gave me a kind of push and excitement to continue what I\u0026#8217;m doing. And I continued publishing one work ah every week ah until I received 10,000 followers just by doing this in seven months.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:58.98\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nNice.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:59.20\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo after seven months, i um I said, hey, maybe it\u0026#8217;s better that I share other designers\u0026#8217; works as well, not to be selfish, but i\u0026#8217;m as I\u0026#8217;m learning all these tools, I\u0026#8217;m working on the projects, I can share more information about how these tools work. So I started blogging on Instagram, not like an influencer kind of blogging, but like ah ah blogging other people\u0026#8217;s works and adding a comment about them. So as I started sharing other people\u0026#8217;s works, I get to know more architects, more um designs, more my eyes opened widely to the world.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:44.45\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nand the page got grow 20,000, 30K, 40K, 50K, 100K followers and I was just earning nothing out of this platform so I kept doing it until 2020 and it was all side hustle, side work and not even ah earning any money, any any penny out of it. So i\u0026#8217;ve after 2020 and with the start of pandemic, I said maybe it\u0026#8217;s better to use this opportunity of growing online ah interactions on the internet\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:21.19\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nI can use that and turn ah this into a business. The page already had 500,000 followers. I started a website. I started Twitter, LinkedIn, all those channels simultaneously. And after doing this, I invited so many architects on Instagram to come and speak with us about the emergence of these tools in architecture.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:47.72\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nah Very famous architects, legendary architects, where where they have books ah written and all their methodologies are ah ah being instructed in universities.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:01.12\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo I was the first person to bring these kind of people on a live Instagram and mode. And it was a really great hub. And our were followers just skyrocketed. And my fame also has skyrocketed. People just started following my personal accounts as well. And next to it, I started also online events.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:22.96\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nah where ah our main focus was teaching these new softwares like workshops, conferences. And we kept doing it until right now that we are almost like 12 people and ah a small team focusing on providing information and knowledge about these emerging tools in architecture.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:48.44\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nah Fantastic. I wonder how many great ideas have started on a toilet.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:51.80\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes, exactly, that\u0026#8217;s what you think actually.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:57.40\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nIndeed. So you\u0026#8217;ve mentioned parametric design. and For those of our audience who aren\u0026#8217;t familiar with the term, can you kind of explain what that is, if possible, in simple terms?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:11.66\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nParametric design is basically ah comes from the words parametric and plus design. Parametric is a term in mathematics, and which is also used a lot in the coding. So ah the basic idea behind parametric design is using algorithms, relationships, ah codings, and all sorts of ah visual scripting methods to calculate a form, a space, a design. And the emergence of this into architecture started somewhere around the 90s, where ah we started using software in architecture.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:58.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd but it was not quite practical until 2007 when Grasshopper 3D software was launched because it enabled architects to directly use visual scripting before they were using scripting. But it was not quite practical to do it on Python and because architects are soft people and they don\u0026#8217;t like those engineering stuff.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:23.54\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nto use in design. But after the creation of Grasshopper as a plugin to Rhino, ah they opened the floodgates of possibilities into architecture. So the term parametric design, of course, has its origins back in history, and even from centuries ago, 1850s, or in the works of Antoni Gaudi, in the works of ah ah architects like Frey Otto, architects like Luigi Moretti, actually Luigi Moretti is the arc Italian architect who coined the term parametric architecture in 1967 in an exhibition. ah But it was all with analog methods of using computational design and using material computing to design something. So initially what\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:19.47\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nThose guys did back then ah without the emergence of without using computers, they used materials, models, they used ah relations and formulas on the paper to calculate and design ah structures.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:30.29\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nMm hmm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:38.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s how they use these methods. But of course, after the emergence of computers, the rise of computers, And ah using the algorithms, people like Pierre Bezier, who\u0026#8217;s an engineer ah working, an automotive engineer working in Raynault, or people like Samuel Gayswell, or even Southerland. These folks worked a lot on bringing softwares design softwares into computer environment.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:11.71\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nah But ah so so this was a little bit about its history where it is started. But after the rise of computers in 90s, we saw the use of computer softwares a lot in architecture. And it was not quite practical to sit and code for just a building that is like a shape of a box.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:34.74\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nArchitects like Frank Gehry used ah tons of ah ah different softwares to design their buildings, like software like Katia or Rhino they used to design their software, one of the great iconic buildings that Frank Gehry designed as a fish Barcelona installation, and also Museum of Bilbao, which they use out and sophisticated algorithms to design these three dimensional surfaces, which was not quite possible to imagine, let alone design and build them. but there But with using software like Katia, it was quite possible and practical to ah model them in a 3D environment.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:20.92\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nand then try to ah decode them how to build them. This continued until, yeah as as I said before, until the emergence of a tool called explicit history, which later on was renamed as Grasshopper 3D. And ah visual scripting from that point entered architecture, and architects is started using ah lots of optimizations, analytics,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:51.14\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nand data-driven design ah into architectural projects. And with that, we see many buildings that are designed these days, like all those crazy curvatures or highly complicated complex structure that you see, they are the result of these using these sophisticated that design tools.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e12:16.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo parametric design relies on these kind of tools and the term parametric architecture is i inspired by the word parametric design actually and the reason I choose this name as the name of our Instagram and also our name the name of our company because I liked parametric architecture, I liked the using of these ah tools into design processes because they make you to become more faster, to design more optimized models. You can iterate ah your designs with just changing one parameter. You can ah you you can generate thousands of iterations and\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:03.28\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nThe important thing is the parameters that you\u0026#8217;re using in in designing anything, you have them with yourself until the end of design. If you change anything so simultaneously, if you change any parameter, it just ah changes the entire design simultaneously on your screen. So this is like ah for engineers who use codings or these kind of algorithms, it\u0026#8217;s quite obvious that yes, this is a good tool.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:32.81\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut for architects, it was not quite easy to accept this idea. Or even myself, when I discovered these kind of tools, I was, oh, I was in shock. Is this really possible to do in architecture? If I can collect my parameters and change them, so at the end of the design, I can go back and change them again. I can go back and change them again. I can have the entire history of my workflow in one sheet and I can go back and ah go forward to do all sort of editings. And ah it led a lot of architects to use these kind of tools to optimize their workflows. And we see its effects into architecture these days. And even those normal architecture buildings that you see are building around, ah they are using ah these highly complicated algorithms to calculate\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:30.65\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nhuge amounts of data in their projects. So that\u0026#8217;s basically what parametric design and parametric architecture is.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:40.69\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nFantastic. So these softwares presumably integrate um kind of building physics into them as well, I\u0026#8217;m guessing. Is that right? So there\u0026#8217;s an ongoing problem in there with architect.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:51.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWell, from my old days, between architects and actual engineers, the architect who could design a fantastic looking building, then the engineer is going to make it work. Now that\u0026#8217;s being dealt with at the design level, must make engineers very happy, I presume.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:03.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nDefinitely. Definitely, definitely. This made this ah gap between architects and designers quite smaller because now architects are able to speak with the language of engineers.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:12.16\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:17.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nEven not maybe fully in the same language, but they are able to optimize their model. Structure-wise, they can optimize their model. And according to the needs of engineers, they can change it quite faster, they can adapt it to the new ah new ah paradigms that the the engineers want, the new methods that engineers want. So ah that gap is now getting much smaller and smaller, so because the language is becoming more common and the environment, the design environment is becoming more collaborative, architects and engineers can work on the same file simultaneously, they can brainstorm together, ah ah not only engineers, mechanical engineers, electrical engineers.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:04.16\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nso the The whole MEP industry can ah collect inside one file and they can brainstorm each other. If architect changes anything, electrical engineer will know it, structural engineer will know it. So this communication became more crucial in those workflows.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:25.06\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOh, that\u0026#8217;s fantastic. That\u0026#8217;s really good. So you can zoom in, zoom out, cut it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:29.10\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely, absolutely.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:31.18\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWow.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:31.28\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nthis This led to the creation of building information modeling where the data yes data is extremely important to communicate with other disciplines that are connected to build that platform ah to build that building.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:47.54\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo building information modeling or shorten it like a BIM uses ah several number of softwares like Revit, like Rhino,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:58.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nah for dynamo there\u0026#8217;s For Revit, there\u0026#8217;s a plugin called Dynamo, which does a lot of things. And you can now store all the information of the building inside three-dimensional softwares. And you can communicate these information to other softwares in other languages. You can convert them. You can create data trees to calculate, to optimize the models.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:21.39\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nah so the architectural process now, it\u0026#8217;s not just only creating three dimensional model, but also the information of that three dimensional model or ah how much that this material accept the heat accepts the heat or what is the endurance of this material in terms of like the cold weather or the pressure, all all sorts of information you can now ah create them or store them inside that 3D model and you can calculate based on them. You can ah make decisions based on those information.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:59.67\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWell, that\u0026#8217;s great. Presumably then you can run um experiments on it. I don\u0026#8217;t know. You could upgrade the windows or insulation or something and it\u0026#8217;ll apply to the whole\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:08.11\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely. Absolutely. Nowadays, the terms called digital to win is becoming more important in architecture because creating that digital to win of the building before it gets built is as important as creating or building that building itself because you can monitor the entire life cycle of the building through digital platforms. You can see if ah the number of people who are using that building is increased, so there are safety measurements that you have to do.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:43.49\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nor there are energy consumption measurements you have to do because you\u0026#8217;re monitoring simultaneously and all these information are connected to these softwares which gives you the real time analysis and ah data for you to decide what you want to do actually. so So all these sorts of information now are connected in digital platforms and where architects together with other people, other disciplines can monitor this information and based on\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:16.90\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nthose ah information, they can go and build the building, they can see the whole process, they can see how many where workers, contractors are involved inside those ah ah those ah constructions.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:32.28\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nand ah move move ahead or if they want to make any decision or any edits or any changes on the design, can they can make first on the file, on the digital twin, then move ahead with the real construction.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:49.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSounds like you\u0026#8217;ve almost made quantity surveyors obsolete with this.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:55.25\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes, yes.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:55.45\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\num\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:56.95\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nThis goes deeply with the printing of numbers, quantitative methods into architecture because architecture before was always based on beauty, art, sculpting, which was out of measurement. So a building that is beautiful for you is maybe not seem beautiful for another person. We still have that in architecture. I think it\u0026#8217;s a good thing that we measure beautiful on a different methods. And beauty doesn\u0026#8217;t have measurements. Except that we can measure other things. The beauty comes out of architects own understanding of what makes this beautiful building. What makes this building beautiful? They decide on it. They go through the process. and\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:48.32\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nand They use a lot of data to choose which building is beautiful. But other than that, all the things that you see on the building to ah design, to build and design them, they can use data. They can use calculations. They can use relationships to ah create highly efficient buildings.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:11.56\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely. Or the beauty side of things. It\u0026#8217;s kind of a ah personal bugbear of mine. and A lot of the UK, as you know, was ruined during the World War and a lot of the buildings that replaced our old beautiful buildings are hideous in my opinion, especially Brutalist.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:25.98\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nI hate Brutalism.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:27.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:28.82\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWith this kind of model, there\u0026#8217;s no reason you couldn\u0026#8217;t show the public loads of models, example models and let them decide by by a jury, if you like, on the beauty of the building.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:40.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes, definitely, definitely. And you can just set beauty beauty like principles of beauty on your design. And based on that, you can just create hundreds of iterations of design methods and And they could all look beautiful, but it\u0026#8217;s up to you to choose which one is more beautiful and more suitable to the context. So the context is very important for for architectural design process as well.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:07.86\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely. Another thing, probably a little bit off topic. You mentioned about the life cycle of the building. So presumably it could be used for planning demolition as well at the end.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:17.16\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nDefinitely.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:18.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut that if that wasn\u0026#8217;t secure, could that not be used by terrorist organizations or somebody else nefarious person to find the weakness in the building and destroy it using the plans?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:31.58\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes, that\u0026#8217;s ah correct. That goes to the cybersecurity and the security of the files and data that should not be shared with anyone. But of course, before we had 2D plans but where it could be just copied and pasted to hundreds of people. But now we can create a file which is highly secure and we can see who has accessed a file When where with which IP so you can give priorities to all these files you can give um Like different type of accesses ah People can have I totally agree. I totally agree with you that these files are sensitive. I should not be shared with um third parties maybe or people who are out of the organizations, but ah like ah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:27.70\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nah Imagine like ah building a website where you have your credit cards inside, where you have all sorts of information inside, and you don\u0026#8217;t want to share them with any other people. But ah with cybersecurity measurements, this just happens, actually. And with those kind of measurements and ah working with engineers, software engineers, I think that\u0026#8217;s quite quite possible to achieve it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:53.95\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay, excellent. Anyway, ah back to your company.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:56.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, and no I totally agree with you.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:01.53\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, we\u0026#8217;re on a fleet the tangent there. um Anyway, so um back to your company. So um you mentioned your educational platform as a PA Academy. Is that right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:10.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s correct.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:11.47\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand So yeah, it focuses on teaching cutting edge tools like Rhino, Grasshopper, which you\u0026#8217;ve mentioned, another AI based technologies. How do you see these tools reshaping the future of design? We\u0026#8217;ve kind of mentioned it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:22.39\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes. Permetric design computational tools ah completely changed the face of architecture. We can call it like a paradigm shift back in 80s, 90s when it started. There was a paradigm shift that happened while these tools emerged with architecture.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:41.54\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nbecause they completely rebuilt the design process and design workflows. Architects before used to do notations or drawings under just ah giving a reference to one of the professors at bartlett university maria karpo who is also author of a couple of ah books, digital twin, digital turn, digital turn to\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:12.59\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nah the The architects used all ways to draw on build on papers and then give these papers to builders so they can build the projects. But that started to change in the last century by the use of these computational tools because architect itself got into the role of building the architecture, building the building itself. So that gap between the builder and architect just started to get smaller and smaller. And we right now in architecture,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:48.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nprofession we We need architects who know how to use a robot. We need architects who know how to use 3D printing. Or we need architects who can understand what Python is so they can write father ah completely new codes on Python so we can use them in our visual scripting. We need ah architects who know about material engineering. This is highly important topic as well, material engineering, because we need New kind of materials to create a sustainable future and we can see all these people like people like Philip block block research group in ETH Zurich We can see all sort of these 3d printing guys who are experimenting\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:32.82\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\ngreat ah materials to print housing projects.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:37.70\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nMm hmm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:37.98\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou know We have housing shortage and we have to build many houses, but with the technologies like 3D printing, we can faster this process. Yes, it\u0026#8217;s hard to code or plan or prepare a 3D printing or a facility, but When it\u0026#8217;s done, it can create quite faster projects, or with the prefabricated tools, with the prefabricated technologies, we can use ah ah to design and build much faster, much sustainable. We can use wood, we can use concrete, and these just allow us to ah think\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:21.49\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nthe the ways we can make an impact into architecture ah profession because after the fashion industry architecture is almost like a second industry or the first industry if i if i if I\u0026#8217;m wrong or right.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:37.84\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nthat pollutes the environment. So if with the use of advanced computational tools, we are able to reduce the use of concrete in our building, we are contributing to sustainability. Because concrete itself maybe is not harmful, but extraction and the methods of building concrete is quite harmful for the environment. So with the use of computational tools, with advanced geometries creating ah the kind of geometries that did use the use of concrete, we are contributing to sustainability. So ah these kind of tools allow us to do multiple methods and explore different options in our design workflows.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:24.27\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay, could you, again, a going off topic again, could you perceive a future where like 3D printers, multi and-material 3D printers could do the same for a building?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:34.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo the concrete for the walls, maybe actually print the glass windows as it\u0026#8217;s going in, ah timber features, you mentioned timber, wood, can\u0026#8217;t think of anything else. Other materials, all in one go.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:45.27\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:47.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWould that be\u0026#8230;\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:48.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, that could be possibly happen in the next 10 years, probably, um ah because the technology is moving so fast. ah In the last five years, there was huge advancements, huge developments in different kind of building methods and regarding AI as well.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:09.44\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nI see a good future for 3D printing and construction. It\u0026#8217;s slow these days. It\u0026#8217;s quite expensive as well if you want to just create one one house one project.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:24.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut if you want to create the same type of project with different customized models of building, You can do thousands of them in short amounts of time, which normal construction methods can\u0026#8217;t reach to that level. And it can reduce ah the time of these constructions to 30% or 40%, actually.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:47.13\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nand ah ah but Printing like a glass or wood, I think there are some experimentations done. I saw a couple of people at the frankffort ah at the exhibition forum next that I went last month. I saw so many great startups working on wood printing or different sorts of metal printing, different sorts of materials to be used in construction as well.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:21.87\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nbut theyre they are not like ah But right now, they can\u0026#8217;t be used probably in large scale in architecture or construction methods. But there\u0026#8217;s a good future for that. like If we start developing these technologies from now, maybe we can use them 10 years or 15 years. and We need to do this because we can build we want to build on other planets as well on dangerous environments and without having proper printing construction methods we can\u0026#8217;t do this so we can send the robots to build.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:58.50\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nshelters for humans on other planets and before they arrive their shelters are ready and already radiation approved approved and so they can live inside those bunkers. But ah I can accept that the process is quite slow. First we need to do lots of experimentation experimentations on our own planet until the product um becomes quite usable and trustable. And construction industry is so conservative industry and that\u0026#8217;s the level ah where the technology comes very last to these industries, architecture and construction. I can understand it because it\u0026#8217;s playing with the human safety and all sorts of ah details that it should be quite\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:51.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nthe well thought of. ah And this ah all these technologies that we have didn\u0026#8217;t happen overnight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:57.02\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThank you.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:59.11\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt took thousands of years until we got adapted to these building technologies. It will take some time until we have all sorts of printing processes and construction as well.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:11.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, that\u0026#8217;s what brings me on to my next question. and um Presumably there\u0026#8217;ll be ways we can mix materials, composites and in ways we\u0026#8217;ve never thought of before um in the future. So um with advancements in things like AI, especially AI and computational design, and what are some of the most exciting projects and trends you\u0026#8217;re seeing emerge generally in architecture?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:33.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes, ah ah our architects were quite hyped about AI ah for for a long time. ah But this changed ah since 2022 with the launch of DALI and Mid-Journey, the tools like these, which allowed architects to visualize they their thoughts, their thinking through the words they can type. So Prompt prop Typing was the first generation of AI tools almost first generation before we had AI tools like for optimizations for analysis but you know they they are small ah or let\u0026#8217;s say narrow AIs ah that could be used but\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:18.41\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nah The image generation just and gave architects a huge excitement and right now and any architect who wants to design a building, they just brainstorm and sketch through AI.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:34.50\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nso But before, we were just doing sketches, checking Pinterest, or um doing brainstorming with a couple of architects, ah inspiring from sites. But right now, they\u0026#8217;re opening the these AI softwares, and they just brainstorm. Even if it\u0026#8217;s not a buildable project, they just brainstorm with ah ah these AI tools.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:59.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut image generation is one process out of thousands of process that happens in architecture. That\u0026#8217;s just one small single process. So just to create a beautiful building or just to answer to things you need ah verbally, you can type them and you can get a visual images.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:18.96\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nArchitecture is not image generation. Architecture is not ah ah working on 3D modeling software. Architecture is not engineering. It\u0026#8217;s not art. It\u0026#8217;s not ah building. It\u0026#8217;s not ah anything that you see. It\u0026#8217;s not materials. Architecture is the combination of all these sort of terms that you can imagine. are An architect needs to know about the context of building, the relationship of that building with its surroundings, which ah is quite crucial for these processes. Architecture is a design process. Architecture is understanding materials. Architecture is understanding structure.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:03.02\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nknowing structure, ah of how to this work in a team and come up ah with ideas to solve the solutions for problems. So ah that that image generation process is 1% of architecture probably. More things that we need to have in architecture is in the data-driven design process and documentation. So these these are extremely important. I see now softwares that are being developed like LUKEX, like Finch 3D. These are just great examples of these kind of softwares that use data\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:44.69\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd they are AI models. They use data to give you documentations, to give you the details, to optimize your model. So these are data-driven agents where architects can use. So moreover, if we shifted, ah if if a fast forwarded if you wanted to fast forward five years, 10 years, I think ah if we can create systems that all these data creates a good architecture, but also they can give you an estimation of the cost of the building with all sorts of back and forth that you can communicate with the system. It can at least give you ah estimation of the cost of the building itself as well. So I think\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:31.35\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nUntil that point, we will keep exploring of using different AI models, AI tools, chatbots, prompts to implement them in our design workflows and design processes.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:48.58\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting. I mean, with them AI art generators, and I mean, presumably it could give you an idea of ah what the public perceive as beautiful for a building, right? Because it gives you an average composite with your direction.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:05.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nto what a beautiful building looks like in the mind\u0026#8217;s eye of of the people. um Presumably that would be helpful for architects to give them some kind of inspirational direction and one if they if that\u0026#8217;s what they\u0026#8217;re aiming for, is beautiful.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:18.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, definitely, definitely. The beauty, the the the tools like Meturi are helping a lot in that sense because it gives them like, ah not even maybe the whole image as well, but a part of the image. Hey, what what I can do for here? Can you give me 10 options? They can type different things and they can explore different options, but ah this this shouldn\u0026#8217;t be limited ah just on the image process. By the way, we\u0026#8217;re we\u0026#8217;re teaching all sorts of architecture softwares and for example tools like Mid-Journey is a tool we taught a lot extensively in our platforms through different people. But tools like Comfy UI that these days are emerging into architecture processes are quite exciting because they\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:07.25\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nThey emerge the parametric design with AI. You can have more control of your design through these node-based methods that existed already in Grasshopper before. So ah tools like ConfUI are extremely i important in design processes. But again, it gives you image out of out of you know whatever you and use as ah as an input.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:38.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nThe mid journey was kind of just typing prompts. You can control through the words and a couple of parameters that they they give you, but ComfyUI gives you an extensive amount of parameters where you can take full control of your design process, but using AI.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:56.14\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\ncool\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:58.81\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nI\u0026#8217;m wondering if it\u0026#8217;s going to lead to some new, what\u0026#8217;s the term, much genre, kind family of building design.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:06.09\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, parametric intelligence.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:06.14\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou know\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:09.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nwell I wonder what we\u0026#8217;ll get in 10 years to building designs.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:11.86\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, yeah, exactly.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:12.48\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting. Anyway, again, we\u0026#8217;ve gone off topic. um did did So ah you mentioned PA Talks, which is a podcast, presumably, which features conversations from renowned designers and innovators and architects, which you mentioned.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:28.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nah Could you share a memorable episode or insight from a guest that particularly inspired you?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:33.10\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, of course. ah pitoxes I started the first PiaTox in 2018 and the whole goal was to bring architects where they can share their experiences and their career devices or challenges that they faced. And it was quite great. and because\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:52.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nArchitects are not quite talkative people as well. ah so And it\u0026#8217;s not also ah considered as highly fancy, ah ah let\u0026#8217;s say, profession these days in compared to topics like AI, software engineers, app developers, like financial, fintech, edtech, or these kind of things.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:57.96\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nfun\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:17.57\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nah So so ah I would love to give them\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:20.72\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nto the summit.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:21.76\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\na shout-out to the great works that they did. So I started Pietox because of that and somewhere in 2020 with the pandemic, as I mentioned before, I started inviting so many great architects like Peter Eisenman, like ah Patrick Schumacher, like Ken Gokuma, Maya Song and our platform. And one of the most memorable of them was Peter Eisenman, who\u0026#8217;s a 90-year-old architect or maybe more than that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:48.62\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd he used Instagram to join this live session. and He was one of my heroes and back in the school because I was ah like a role architect and I was following his design methods.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:04.95\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so so I studied a lot of his work back in the school. And when I invited him and into the podcast and he agreed to to join, I was super excited. And that was one of my highest viewed architects architecture talk, like PA talks, that I got and on Instagram with almost like a thousand people watching live on Instagram. and and It kept crashing a couple of times as well, but we we did a good podcast with him. So that was one of the great moments where ah I had a so much excitement of doing this podcast. And I learned a lot from doing these podcasts. I learned a lot by talking to like-minded people,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e42:00.16\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nah how they are using these softwares, what do they think about the future of architecture, how they see, how how they use it in the future and how they see the future of the profession where it\u0026#8217;s headed. So, yeah, Peter Eisenman, people like Patrick Schumacher, people like ah yeah Kenga kengo Kuma, architects like Maya Song are the ah trailblazers and the pioneers of these these\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e42:33.33\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nusing these tools and yeah, I appreciate them a lot and I\u0026#8217;m so excited and so honored that we had them in our talk session.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e42:43.68\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSuperb. I\u0026#8217;m sure they enjoyed it too.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e42:45.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e42:48.46\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo looking ahead, what\u0026#8217;s next for a parametric architecture? Are there any upcoming initiatives, collaborative collaborations, pardon me, or expansions you\u0026#8217;re particularly excited about?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e42:58.49\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, of course. Since we started PA Academy in 2022 as well, ah we we we wanted we want to grow this platform beyond its limits. So ah back in 2014-15, I wanted to learn all these tools with highly ah great people, and ah people who were experts and pioneers in this field. But i unfortunately, I didn\u0026#8217;t have access to those kind of people.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e43:28.03\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\ni I didn\u0026#8217;t want to go like and study master\u0026#8217;s degree in ah like famous universities and pay like $50,000, $60,000 a year ah just to study from these people. So I always had that in mind. It would be very good I can learn from these people.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e43:48.46\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nah But also the platforms like yeah Udemy or ah similar platforms, you know the education quality in platforms like Udemy. And ah they\u0026#8217;re not quite well polished, well thought education platforms. So I try to invite these people and make them accessible by public so people, architects can learn from them.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e44:14.74\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nand They joined, they taught their workflows, how they are using these tools. So we are on the verge of democratizing this kind of knowledge, which is computational design, the use of AI, using advanced design tools, parametric design. We\u0026#8217;re democratizing this knowledge with everyone on the planet.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e44:36.98\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo, we started very small, ah but we\u0026#8217;re going quite big, and we want to grow ah beyond the limits. We want to make this ah access quiet, accessible as well. they but We want to lower the prices, we want to do more workshops, more events, so architects can easily adapt to this new technology.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e45:02.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nAI is moving so fast, but we are quite moving very, very slow. Even now with the emergence of AI, not even 99.99% they know about AI and architecture. So even 99% of buildings are designed by non-architects mostly. If you just go and calculate except the signature, the design comes from maybe by non-architects. So ah that number could could be different, like 96%, 97% on some regions. But we want to make these tools accessible by everyone so they can become more efficient, they can become ah they they can design a a more sustainable projects.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e45:50.02\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nThey can do ah optimize their models and at the end of the day we can have a good built environment. That\u0026#8217;s what we value and architecture has a lot of ah work to be done outside the design.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e46:08.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nThe design process is just 1% of architecture. The rest of it is normal documentation on AutoCAD or ah working with electrical engineers to implement those kind of drawings, printing, talking to engineers. So all these sort of processes are ah becoming quite boring for architects. So with the emergence of these tools, these processes can be highly efficient.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e46:35.84\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nso and entertaining as well. ah And these days, every architects need to update update them their knowledge out of every three, four years. So we\u0026#8217;re providing these platforms, Parametric Architecture and PA Academy with the resources that they need to upgrade their knowledge.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e46:58.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd what we look forward is to make all these knowledges more accessible, to reach more architects, we working with universities, working with the companies to make it more accessible.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e47:09.62\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSuperb. Excellent. If it leads to more beautiful buildings, you have my full support. um\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e47:13.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nOf course, of course.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e47:15.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand ah Basically out of time. and Is there anything else you\u0026#8217;d like to add before we we wrap up?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e47:22.86\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nNo, I think ah generally yeah what what I like to mention is ah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e47:34.66\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nArchitecture is a really tough profession. As easy as it seems, it\u0026#8217;s not easy. And most of the times, architects ah architects are not funded to do their projects. They do the project, then they get funded. So that\u0026#8217;s the hard part for them to sustain their office, to sustain their company as well. And because of the beauty measurements, sometimes they lose the projects, they they to end up not getting the projects. So and the labor work for architects are quiet, low as well. I hope these all will change in the future. and We can see more better work environments for architects, more better ah conditions for architects. And with the educations that we provide as well, I hope they can become more efficient in their design workflows.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e48:32.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nFantastic. or With that then, Ahmed, thank you for your time. That was very interesting.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e48:38.44\u003cbr /\u003e\nHamid Hassanzadeh\u003cbr /\u003e\nThank you. Thanks for having me and thanks for this great podcast that you\u0026#8217;re doing. I hope the people who will listen will enjoy it. Thank you.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e48:47.80\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThank you very much.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eThat concludes this episode of Lexicon.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eThank you all for tuning in and being our guest today.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eFollow our social media channels for the latest science and technology news. Also, check out our latest merch at Interesting Engineering Shop.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\n","episode_number":"72","sponsor_image":null,"sponsor_name":null,"sponsor_url":null,"hosts":[{"name":"Christopher McFadden","title":"Host","biography":"\u003cp\u003eChristopher graduated from Cardiff University in 2004 with a Masters Degree in Geology. Since then, he has worked exclusively within the Built Environment, Occupational Health and Safety and Environmental Consultancy industries. He is a qualified and accredited Energy Consultant, Green Deal Assessor and Practitioner member of IEMA. Chris’s main interests range from Science and Engineering, Military and Ancient History to Politics and Philosophy.\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/avatars/XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","title":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","name":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","description":"N/A","alt_text":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","reference":null}}],"speakers":[{"name":"Hamid Hassanzadeh","title":"Founder and CEO of ParametricArchitecture","biography":"\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/hamidhassanzadeh/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eHamid Hassanzadeh\u003c/a\u003e is the Founder and CEO of \u003ca href=\"https://parametric-architecture.com/about-us/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eParametricArchitecture\u003c/a\u003e, a global platform that shares knowledge and information on advancing computational design, AI, and emerging technologies in architecture. With a decade of experience as an architect and computational designer, Hamid recognized the inefficiencies in traditional design processes. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eHe founded ParametricArchitecture and its division PAACADEMY to empower architects with advanced tools and knowledge, shaping a more innovative and efficient future for the built environment.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/PA_Hamid_Hassanzadeh-web-1-2-pzk0eedbiokg4bo47dhodtighqezrmb4vmqeik04o0.jpg","title":"PA_Hamid_Hassanzadeh-web-1-2-pzk0eedbiokg4bo47dhodtighqezrmb4vmqeik04o0.jpg","name":"PA_Hamid_Hassanzadeh-web-1-2-pzk0eedbiokg4bo47dhodtighqezrmb4vmqeik04o0.jpg","description":"N/A","alt_text":"PA_Hamid_Hassanzadeh-web-1-2-pzk0eedbiokg4bo47dhodtighqezrmb4vmqeik04o0.jpg","reference":null}}],"introductions":"\u003cp\u003eIn today\u0026#8217;s episode, we are joined by \u003ca href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/hamidhassanzadeh/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eHamid Hassanzadeh\u003c/a\u003e, the visionary founder of \u003ca href=\"https://parametric-architecture.com/about-us/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eParametricArchitecture\u003c/a\u003e.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eJoin us as we dive into the inspiring journey of PA from a humble idea born in a bathroom to the global platform it is today.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eAlso, check out our latest merch at \u003c/span\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://shop.interestingengineering.com/en-gbp/\"\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eInteresting Engineering Shop\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/a\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003e.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n","host_introductions":null,"speakers_introductions":null,"player_code":"https://interestingengineering.com/podcast/lexicon/from-toilet-to-twitter-the-rise-of-parametricarchitecture","publish_date":"2024-12-26T14:42:27+00:00","publish_date_detail":"Dec 26, 2024 09:42 AM EST","status":1,"page_title":"Parametric Architecture: From a Spark to a Career-Defining Journey","keywords":"Parametric Architecture","description":"","seo_title":"Parametric Architecture: From a Spark to a Career-Defining Journey - Interesting Engineering","og_title":"Parametric Architecture: From a Spark to a Career-Defining Journey - Interesting Engineering","og_image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/amazon-cover-1.png","title":"amazon-cover-1.png","name":"amazon-cover-1.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"amazon-cover-1.png","reference":null},"og_url":null,"og_type":null,"main_image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/amazon-cover-1.png","title":"amazon-cover-1.png","name":"amazon-cover-1.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"amazon-cover-1.png","reference":null}},{"title":"Moore’s Law at 60: how it’s still changing the world","abstract":"Discover the innovations keeping Moore’s Law alive and powering global technology.","slug":"moores-law-at-60-how-its-still-changing-the-world","transcript":"\u003cp\u003eWelcome to today\u0026#8217;s episode of Lexicon! I am Christopher McFadden, a contributing writer for Interesting Engineering.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eIn this episode, we dive into the future of computing with Sanjay Natarajan, SVP and GM of Intel Foundry Technology Research.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eFrom keeping Moore’s Law alive to breakthroughs in advanced packaging, AI, and materials, discover how Intel is shaping the next era of innovation in semiconductors and global technology leadership.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eBefore getting into our new episode, make sure to check out our latest merch at Interesting Engineering Shop.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eEngineer your style with our t-shirts, mugs and discover new products! Now, let’s continue with today’s episode.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:00.69\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanji, thanks for joining us. How are you today?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:02.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nI\u0026#8217;m very good. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:04.51\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOur pleasure, of course. and For our audience\u0026#8217;s benefit, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself, please?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:09.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nUh, sure. My name is Sanjay Natarajan. I\u0026#8217;m a senior vice president at Intel corporation. Um, I am the general manager of Intel\u0026#8217;s technology research group, which doing kind of all of the advanced research in support of forwarding Moore\u0026#8217;s law.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:26.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nas well as some important adjacent technologies like quantum computing, gallium nitride, a few other things that are going to be critical for the for the future of the semiconductor industry.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:37.55\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nFantastic. It\u0026#8217;s on the subject of Moore\u0026#8217;s Law. It has been the cornerstone of technological advancement for, I think, nearly 60 years now. and What do you see ah as the most profound ways it has shaped the modern world, and how do you think it remains relevant today?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:53.69\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, let me give you a few examples of how I think it shaped the modern world and and why I think this is still a relevant topic today. if you don\u0026#8217;t mind i\u0026#8217;m gonna the Before I do that, yeah just kind of catch your audience up on some some Moore\u0026#8217;s Law basics ah that that might be helpful.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:06.62\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nPlease.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:09.45\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo what we\u0026#8217;re talking about is came from a paper that Gordon Moore wrote back in 1965. ah ah Gordon Moore was the one of the co-founders of Intel, and he wrote a really short, important four-page paper back in 1965. And the paper had two graphs in it. I\u0026#8217;ll describe them both for your audience. The one that I\u0026#8217;m going to describe first is the one that everyone talks about when they talk about Moore\u0026#8217;s Law. The other one that nobody talks about is the actually more important graph in the paper.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:42.12\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nUm, but it it never gets that to do. So the the the one graph he talks about first is the number of components on a chip. Uh, he plotted four data points across a few years, drew a line through it and said, looks like it\u0026#8217;s doubling every year. Um, and then, uh, a few years later, he added a little more data to it. A few years later, a little more data and in the early seventies. He said, it looks like it\u0026#8217;s doubling every two years.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:07.46\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd the number of components on a chip became synonymous with the number of transistors on a chip. And that became known as Moore\u0026#8217;s law. um Side note, Gordon Moore never liked the the phrase Moore\u0026#8217;s law, the term Moore\u0026#8217;s law. I had the pleasure, the honor of being able to talk to him personally about this early in my career. And he confirmed that that this wasn\u0026#8217;t his idea. He wish it was never named after him. I believe named McCarver Mead at Caltech.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:35.98\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nMm-hm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:36.41\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\num and the name Doc. And that\u0026#8217;s really kind of what the genesis of Moore\u0026#8217;s Law was back in back in the 1960s. The other graph I want to mention is the graph that says these new technologies will get cheaper in a couple of years. And that was really the point. The point was, and that you know one of the little secrets, Moore\u0026#8217;s Law, ah the the paper came out in an electronics journal.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:01.97\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut it was really an economics paper disguised as an electronics paper. It was really the point of his of his observation was how the cost of these components would come down over time. And and and I think that\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s been a little lost in the transistors per square millimeter view of it. But it really is a cost argument. Now, fast forward, we\u0026#8217;ve basically been on that treadmill for an order of 60 years. And if, in fact, you do plot the number of transistors on a chip,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:31.98\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nover that 60 years, it\u0026#8217;s been pretty exactly 2x every two years. So it\u0026#8217;s a pretty remarkable observation that\u0026#8217;s held true even up until now. um The aspects of it that he never talked about that we sort of take for granted when we talk about Moore\u0026#8217;s law is that these transistors, these little switches will also get faster every time.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:53.59\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nand that they\u0026#8217;ll also draw less power as time goes on. So these are sort of corollaries. They\u0026#8217;re not part of the original Moore\u0026#8217;s law, but really there\u0026#8217;s an expectation that we also serve a speed ah aspect and we serve a power aspect as we continue to evolve the technology. So that\u0026#8217;s sort of background for for your listeners. Now, I would say I can think about maybe three ways in which this has revolutionized the world offhand.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:18.70\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nTwo that are kind of very personal firsthand to me. ah The third kind of serves as one of my missions you know in my career. One of the first ones, I\u0026#8217;ll go back to almost, probably I was a teenager, and I would get, for reasons I don\u0026#8217;t know and can\u0026#8217;t recall, invited into these air conditioned rooms with giant computers in them.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:39.61\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nwith maybe one or two people at a terminal doing something. The room was always dark. It was always freezing. I was always told, whatever you do, don\u0026#8217;t touch anything. This was what the computing and world was like in the 70s and early 80s. And you fast forward 50 years later, all of us have that exact computer in our pocket. And some of us have it on our wrist. Right now, you know this is this is the world we live in. that technology that was you know basically you know the the modern day ah version of of the church. It was really kind of hallowed hall. Now everyone has, that\u0026#8217;s been democratized. Everyone can do what those very few people could do 50 years ago. um Another example I\u0026#8217;ll say is when I was in college, a freshman in college on a Saturday morning at my college, you could walk down the quad\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:34.25\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd you would see this giant truck moving at about one mile an hour. It looked um like a like ah i mean almost like I would call it like ah what a cyber truck looks like today, but it was a big truck. It was really ugly and ah it would go about one mile an hour for about 10 feet. It would stop for about two minutes and then it would roll lumber along for another 10 feet. And one day I decided to ask what was going on. And they said, this is our research on self-driving cars.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:01.54\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd ah you know we we take photographs and videos. Then we process them. you know and And the grad students who were inside showed me inside. It was full of computers, full of power packs. It would go, again, take pictures, drive itself about 10 feet, stop, take you know stock of what it had collected, and take the next 10 feet. And as a freshman in college, i and I looked at this thing. This is idiotic. This thing is never going to work.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:26.07\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\num you know But look at what\u0026#8217;s happened in that time frame on the order of 40 years, 10,000x improvement due to Moore\u0026#8217;s law in the number of transistors that fit on a chip, the power that each of those transistors draws, um and the speed of those each each of those transistors. And that, you know I won\u0026#8217;t shortchange all the other work that\u0026#8217;s gone around it, around it but that is what has enabled that monstrous box of computers and power to fit now into something the size of a glove compartment, operate at speeds where the car doesn\u0026#8217;t need to go one mile an hour and stop. And now you have very real self-driving cars built on fundamentally the same technology, but enabled by this five orders of magnitude ah driven by Moore\u0026#8217;s law. Third example I\u0026#8217;ll give you, view it this isn\u0026#8217;t as much my personal experience as something that and again shapes my my mission is\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:20.48\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nWe have really enabled a lot of the 8 billion people on the planet to improve their lives ah in ways that they never could, I would say, for almost all of human history. You\u0026#8217;re now in a situation where people across most of the planet can communicate with one another relatively easily, ah you know, both audio and video. They can learn whatever they want to learn relatively easily. Most everything they would like to learn to improve their lives is available for free.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:49.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nah This has been true for some time in you know in our country, in in the United States, and and in the developed world. But I think it\u0026#8217;s beginning to be broadly accessible to to the rest of the 8 billion people on the planet. And I mean, I think to me, you know technology can be used for for nefarious things that we know about, but I rely on the fact that by and large, it\u0026#8217;s a force for good. And I think Murslaw has really enabled that for the politics.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:16.11\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand Something I\u0026#8217;ve always wondered with Moore\u0026#8217;s Law and is if it is an organic process or more of a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy, and like engineers won\u0026#8217;t be happy to release a new i do chipset and unless it has doubled.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:29.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, I think that\u0026#8217;s, a that Chris, that\u0026#8217;s a great observation.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:30.09\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:32.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nBecause first of all, it\u0026#8217;s not a law in any sense of the word we would think of.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:35.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:36.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s not ah and a law of nature. It\u0026#8217;s not a law of physics. It\u0026#8217;s not a law passed by any government. It\u0026#8217;s merely an observation. ah And what\u0026#8217;s happened is the whole industry has taken that observation very seriously as marching orders.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:51.11\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:51.61\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nMeaning by definition, we will deliver 2x the number of transistors on a chip in two years. That will set our our goals for the near term, it will set our sights on what the long-term goal has to look like. you you know Intel, as as I would say, we feel this as the stewards of Moore\u0026#8217;s law, we\u0026#8217;ve taken that quite to heart, but the whole industry has taken that to heart. so you know It drives the semiconductor equipment industry, it drives the EDA industry, it drives the fabulous industry, it drives all of us ah in the same direction. and so In a sense, it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s organic in that it is based on the collective execution of many, many\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:29.55\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nparts that are loosely interacting with one another. But in a sense, it\u0026#8217;s a mission statement for the whole industry.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:37.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, so a bit of both.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:38.32\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nA bit of both. A bit of both.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:39.28\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nbut\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:39.84\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut again, I think you know I remain very optimistic about Moore\u0026#8217;s law for the for the foreseeable future.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:48.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay, which brings us ourselves nicely to the next question. so So many have predicted the death of Moore\u0026#8217;s Law. ah Yet companies like Intel continue to push the boundaries. What breakthroughs or strategies are keeping it alive?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:00.77\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd how do you see this impacting emerging technologies, especially things like AI, artificial intelligence?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:05.33\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, ah great question. um So but yeah, you\u0026#8217;re absolutely right. The death of Moore\u0026#8217;s law has been around almost as long as Moore\u0026#8217;s law has been around. um Gordon Moore himself, by the way, predicted the death of Moore\u0026#8217;s law three times in a row. ah First, he said it would die in 2005. That came and went. Then he said it would die in 2015. And then soon before he passed away, he said 2025 is going to be the death of Moore\u0026#8217;s law. So we\u0026#8217;ll see what happens next year.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:32.69\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nah But, you know, um I am optimistic. um ah You know, it\u0026#8217;s absolutely true that that it\u0026#8217;s been predicted and it\u0026#8217;s been wrong over and over again. And part of the reason it\u0026#8217;s wrong is the breakthroughs that we\u0026#8217;ve had to do to keep it alive. I would say um in the early days of Moore\u0026#8217;s law, those transistor 2X every two years were delivered by what was known as Dennard scaling. Very um elegant. I\u0026#8217;ll maybe mention this. Bob Dennard was a a researcher in the industry.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:03.11\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nHe did some fabulous and very innovative work for all of us that said, if you do this to your transistor, it will get twice as small, it will get twice this much faster, and it will use this much less energy. So he kind of wrote a playbook for us. By the way, it\u0026#8217;s also a very short technical paper from the 70s. It\u0026#8217;s a little bit of a harder read because it is a very deep engineering paper. But it lays out the math beautifully and elegantly that says,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:31.52\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\ndo these things and you will deliver Moore\u0026#8217;s law. And and that was our playbook for quite a while, you know of what we called the era of Dennard scaling. um and And that kind of ran out of steam in the late 90s, early 2000s. That path to delivering Moore\u0026#8217;s law was kind of out of gas. And then we entered what we would but we call in our industry kind of the materials era. We innovate new materials.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:56.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nin lieu of the scaling that Bob Denard laid out. And new materials would be things like high K and metal gate as examples, ah silicon germanium, strained silicon as examples. ah So we\u0026#8217;d have to go deeper into the periodic table and find elements that we weren\u0026#8217;t used to using, find ways to use them. But ultimately, what we were still trying to deliver is smaller transistors, lower power, faster transistors. Those three things didn\u0026#8217;t change. Those were the kind of pillars we were after.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e12:24.98\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\num And then that, I would say, lasted a decade for us where we kind of mined the periodic table pretty well. You\u0026#8217;ll find us using nickel and cobalt and, you know, lanthanum and, you know, a lot of strange materials most people don\u0026#8217;t think of on the periodic table. Then we kind of entered an architectural era where we would, we went from a planar transistor to a FinFET transistor.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e12:49.13\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nNow we\u0026#8217;re gone from a FinFET transistor to a gate all around transistor. And so we kind of continue to deliver on those exact three pillars with architectural innovation. Where I say architectural, think of it as changing the shape of things. When we\u0026#8217;re no longer making a transistor on a flat surface, we\u0026#8217;re making it three dimensional. And these are the breakthroughs we\u0026#8217;ve had to employ as an industry to kind of keep things alive. The emerging breakthrough, I would say, coming to us is the advancement in packaging.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:19.27\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nright?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:19.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nI see that as as one of the next emerging breakthroughs. It\u0026#8217;s been happening. So I won\u0026#8217;t say it\u0026#8217;s starting today. It\u0026#8217;s been happening. But I think that\u0026#8217;s going to carry us forward ah you know in the coming decade, for sure. As far as kind of strategies, I guess there\u0026#8217;s one I am well aware of because we ah you know we\u0026#8217;re kind of religious about it. We have a very long pipeline starting from early research all the way to when this is going to be on shelves in stores that consumers can go buy.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:48.62\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\num And I think we are unique at Intel in that regard. our Our research to development to manufacturing pipeline, it\u0026#8217;s very long and it\u0026#8217;s very well integrated. So that research, that development, that manufacturing, to my knowledge, Intel is the only company that does it all under one roof. We do it on one site, we do it on one campus with one group of people. They do early research, and that research can last a decade.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:14.04\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nyear today working on ideas that that the consumer may not see for 10 to 15 years. um And then we have the same, under the same you know one roof, the same clean room where we do the work, we have the development going on. And then we have the initial production going on. So in that sense, I think we\u0026#8217;re unique and it really enables us to shorten the timeline between or an idea and research and how do you get it all the way to the hands of the end consumer.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:43.72\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand I\u0026#8217;ve always ah in my head made the analogy, the Moore\u0026#8217;s law, sort of like the oil industry. and So you tap all the easy fields first. And then as the technology has to get more advanced, you\u0026#8217;ve got to go be more exploratory.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:57.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd like you were mentioning, going deeper into the periodic table and then playing with ah the architecture is what would be the next big quantum leap in your view.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:03.40\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah Yeah. Yeah. And I see, again, one of the emerging areas, which were which we, like I said, maybe I should say, we\u0026#8217;ve been doing it for a little while.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:13.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nI think it\u0026#8217;s going to blossom, is the use of advanced packaging to forward Moore\u0026#8217;s law.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:17.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:18.65\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nright And so here I have to maybe say, we maybe have to take Moore\u0026#8217;s law in spirit, as opposed to the exact literal way Gordon Moore wrote it down. ah Because once we talk about, we\u0026#8217;re no longer necessarily talking about transistors on a single chip.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:32.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nWe might be talking about total transistors in a package. um you know And now we\u0026#8217;re talking about ah that package having multiple chips on it and integrated in three dimensions, you know x, y, and z.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:45.33\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:45.34\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo you know that\u0026#8217;s a little bit of an interpretation I\u0026#8217;m taking there to say. At the end of the day, though, what we want to deliver to the end user is those more transistors that architects and designers can use to create functionality, each of those being done with lower power and higher speeds, those three vllars pillars don\u0026#8217;t really change for us. But you know the the advanced packaging era, I think, is upon us. um you know we We have begun that journey through going from very basic packaging, I\u0026#8217;d say for a lot of the industry, to what we call two and a half day packaging, to now 3D packaging.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:23.36\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nwhere chips, you know and and we refer to them now as chiplets, because you can now partition individual functionality onto a relatively small piece of ah chip, you know silicon or otherwise. And then you can put them together efficiently through packaging. So you can put the use the best semiconductor technology for a certain function, make a small chiplet that does that function, and then very efficiently put that together in an advanced package.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:49.81\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd I think that is going to kind of be one of the ways we continue ah to deliver our the the promise that we have to deliver.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:58.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nCool.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:59.25\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou know For us, it it is packaging technology called things like Foveros and Foveros Direct, direct copper to copper hybrid bonding. um But you know I will say, as an industry, we\u0026#8217;re just in the early innings here.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:13.52\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nThe technology is emerging. I would say we have a long way to go to really be smart about how to use it. in the best possible way. Because the idea of taking chips and putting them together in a package, that\u0026#8217;s not a new concept. We\u0026#8217;ve been doing that forever. ah the The devil\u0026#8217;s in the details here. and And one example of the details is, well, you lose power when you transfer information from chip to chip. That takes power. that that you know That is essentially a source of power that you have to deliver. And so there are inefficiencies that come from doing packages this way of multiple chips and chiplets. The real secret sauce is, how do you\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:50.31\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\npartition the functionality into the right number of chiplets. How do you put those chiplets back together in a package in the right efficient manner? you know Now we have the ability to turn chips upside down so you can bond chips face to face.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:03.93\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nYou can bond chips face to back. You can have wires from the bottom of the chip. You can have wires for the top of a chip. you know We\u0026#8217;re like a kid with a box of Legos right now. You can do anything you want.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:13.93\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nah just\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:15.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nand so the the The real trick is how do you do exactly the right thing with all of this capability?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:22.20\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nbut close um Moving on then, um some are predicted that we\u0026#8217;ll be able to achieve one trillion transistors on a chip by about 2030. What challenges and opportunities does this milestone present for the industry?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:36.41\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, i think we I think we have a very good chance of getting there as an industry. Again, maybe I would say we think broadly, we say that I do expect the number of transistors on a chip to continue to improve. Just kind of the classical Moore\u0026#8217;s law vector. I do expect that to continue to improve. But as I said, I think a lot of it will come from how you put multiple chips together on a package.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:57.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s how you deliver the real value. Oh, you know, most people don\u0026#8217;t care about the number of transistors on any chip that they own, whether it\u0026#8217;s their cell phone or their laptop, couldn\u0026#8217;t care less really. And I i appreciate that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:08.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nWhat they care about is, you know, what are the vectors they\u0026#8217;re getting out of it? It\u0026#8217;s battery life.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:11.69\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:12.98\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nYou know, it\u0026#8217;s, it\u0026#8217;s some extent power consumption, it\u0026#8217;s speed, these, you know, and functionality. These are the things they care about. So I think that that\u0026#8217;s going to continue that ability to deliver more and more.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:24.01\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nThe opportunities I think is. Look, today, you know while we are having this conversation, some freshmen at some college is looking at something and saying, that is never going to work. And and I expect that exact thing is the kind of thing that is going to work by the work we are doing right now. um you know I\u0026#8217;ll say, one of the one of the things I remember is, somebody told me this once, is a number of inventions were predicted by Star Trek in the 1960s.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:52.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou know Your flip phone was predicted by Star Trek. Doors that opened by themselves was predicted by Star Trek. Tricorders, computers you could talk to. These were all predictions from the 60s from a show that was you know just making it up. And they happened to be spot on with the number of innovations that we have in front of us today. We still don\u0026#8217;t have teleporters. ah So maybe that\u0026#8217;s one of the things that will be enabled by this technology that\u0026#8217;s coming next.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:20.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nah We still don\u0026#8217;t have holodecks to my knowledge. Maybe that\u0026#8217;s going to be one of the tech, you know, we definitely have AR, VR.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:25.51\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nuh-huh uh-huh\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:26.33\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo I can imagine a holodeck might be an actually achievable goal ah with advancements in technology that we\u0026#8217;re working on. So, I mean, I\u0026#8217;m being a little glib here, but um you know, the point is there are pretty amazing inventions that require us to continue to deliver the vectors of Moore\u0026#8217;s law to make them kind of globally available reality.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:47.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\num And those are the kinds things whether you\u0026#8217;re a freshman in college saying that\u0026#8217;ll never work or you\u0026#8217;re seeing it on a TV show Thinking that\u0026#8217;s amazing that can\u0026#8217;t ever happen. These are the things that are going to happen in a decade Yeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:00.18\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nCool, can\u0026#8217;t wait forward, looking forward to Holodeck. So on the subject of packaging, and so innovations like Selective Layer Transfer, SLT, can help improve upon existing packchaging packaging technologies and revolutionized chip assembly. Can you explain how SLT works and its implications again for AI and other high performance applications if possible?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:23.01\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, absolutely. and And let me put it in context first. um So ah every December in San Francisco, we have the main technical conference for our industry, the main semiconductor conference.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:35.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nah Because we\u0026#8217;re engineers, we don\u0026#8217;t have cool names like Davos or anything like that. It\u0026#8217;s called the IEEE Electron Devices Meeting, or IEDM. None of that rolls off the tongue, unfortunately, but that\u0026#8217;s what it is. And it\u0026#8217;s the place where every year we all get together. We we talk about our best ideas. We show the work that we\u0026#8217;ve done. um This past December, well, I guess it\u0026#8217;s December, this couple of weeks ago, we had seven papers, which is quite a lot for one conference. Intel had seven papers at the conference.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:05.54\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nah where we unveiled some of the breakthroughs we\u0026#8217;ve been doing in research. One of them was selective layer transfer that we exposed to the ah world for the first time. And the idea is, let me i\u0026#8217; say, there\u0026#8217;s really two ways to do ah some of this advanced packaging. to you know I\u0026#8217;m going to oversimplify, ah bear with me on that. But one is called wafer-to-wafer bonding. You take two wafers, you stick them together, and then you kind of cut them apart and put them into packages.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:35.86\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nThe other is called chip to wafer. You take one wafer, you cut it up into chips, and then you take each chip and put it on the other wafer one at a time. And they each have pros and cons. Wafer to wafer bonding is very fast because you\u0026#8217;re basically doing it all at once. It\u0026#8217;s a highly parallel task. But those two die both those wafers have to have dye that are the same size. Otherwise, you\u0026#8217;ll have mismatches as you stick them together. Chip to wafer has other advantages. It it can enable sort of more precision in some ways.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:04.76\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nah but it\u0026#8217;s much slower. Selective layer transfer is our way of having our cake and eating it too. It really brings together the best of both ideas of chipped away for and wafer to wafer at the same time. By allowing you to put two wafers together, but then not making both wafers completely stick together, but just choosing part of one wafer to stick to the other wafer.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:30.66\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou know And again, I\u0026#8217;m using non-technical terms and simplifying. I hope your audience will bear with me on that. ah But that\u0026#8217;s the gist. you know The long and short of it is I walked out of that talk. I was sitting in the audience with an executive from ah another semiconductor company. And as we were walking out, he said to me, I have just seen the future.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:50.45\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nah which makes me feel pretty good because that that is what we\u0026#8217;re going for, obviously. But that\u0026#8217;s quite and ah quite a nice validation from one of my colleagues in the industry who who had no reason to say that other than, you know, I think he really did believe it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:05.71\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah Yeah, definitely yeah definitely be a good thing to hear from you your competitors.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:09.94\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, yeah, yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:10.64\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely. So on that subject then, how does Intel\u0026#8217;s approach to advanced packaging compare to your competitors and why is it critical for maintaining leadership in semiconductor technology?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:23.59\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. I\u0026#8217;d say in one key way, um, that I\u0026#8217;m aware of, and ah you know, I don\u0026#8217;t know everything our competitors do, but I would say, um, in one key way, our pipeline for research to development and manufacturing is very holistic and monolithic. Um, you know, again, we do it all under one organization. We do it all under one roof. Um, the ideas can germinate in the research setting for again, maybe as much as a decade. Sometimes if you look at.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:51.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nuh, FinFET transistors or gate all around or high K metal gate. I can say that we were researching those for, for a decade before we really moved to the next phase. Um, and sometimes it takes that long to work out all of the difficult problems. Um, but then we have a very efficient transfer of research to development because we all work together. You know, I will take stuff we have in research and those people who have worked on it in research will go join the development team for one or two years.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:19.02\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nand stick with it. And they are the experts on this technology. And then we\u0026#8217;ve also got the same paradigm on the other end. The development team, as they\u0026#8217;re finishing development, will stick with the manufacturing for quite some time. you know It\u0026#8217;s definitely enabled by the fact that we do it all in the same roof. So you don\u0026#8217;t have to drive to a different office. You don\u0026#8217;t have to relocate to another city or state or country to do that transfer.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:43.12\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou\u0026#8217;re literally just going to do the you know you\u0026#8217;re coming into the same building and you\u0026#8217;re just working on the development phase instead of the research phase or the manufacturing of products instead of the development. I think that\u0026#8217;s a very powerful paradigm. And and again, to my knowledge, kind of one that\u0026#8217;s unique to us. And I think it is critical for this maintaining the leadership. You you alluded to it early on, which is you know the the parado the ah parallel of the oil industry where you start with the easy stuff I will tell you, to be fair to all of us, that it never felt easy at the time. So, you know, even when we were working on this in the in the early 90s, at the time it felt pretty hard. Now we can all look back and say, well, that was a much simpler time, quite frankly, that, you know, just followed in hard scaling and and things kind of worked themselves out. And now we are doing a lot of things to deliver the value.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:32.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\num ah But the key to doing a lot of those things is to start that research early and have a very seamless pipeline all the way to when it hits the shelves for customers.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:43.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, so presumably you have several technologies developing in parallel.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:44.49\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\ni\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:48.41\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYou don\u0026#8217;t sort of start, finish 10 years and then start a new project, obviously. You\u0026#8217;ve got kind of staggering.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:52.44\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. Yeah, the idea is to still roughly have a new technology available every couple of years. So you know given if the if the full pipeline we\u0026#8217;re talking about is 15 years for some things, and yeah, you\u0026#8217;ve got a lot going on in the parallel under the same roof, absolutely.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:58.25\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:05.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:08.28\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd presumably please, sorry, go on.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:08.50\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\num Yeah, I think the the other thing that I would highlight is is the importance of working very well across the whole industry.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:10.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSorry, Sanjay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:18.49\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt is an all play. you know that the The days are long gone, I think, when anyone can just go it alone and get it done. you know we We work very closely with our equipment suppliers, with our material suppliers. We work very closely with our partners in design and in the EDA space you know ah to make sure that our interventions are compatible with how they can use them and how they want to use them and how the tools are going to be ah developed to support that. We don\u0026#8217;t want to create a brilliant idea that nobody can use.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:51.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo I think that\u0026#8217;s critical as well. using Using ecosystem partners like Consortia, you know, we work very closely with ah you know with universities worldwide. We work very closely with Consortia like IMEC in Belgium um to do a lot of the early pre-competitive work, ah research work and and occasionally development work that we have to do to kind of bring the whole ecosystem along.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:20.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou know Again, not only do you not want to have a brilliant idea that you can\u0026#8217;t use, you don\u0026#8217;t want a brilliant idea that you can\u0026#8217;t manufacture because the right equipment wasn\u0026#8217;t available, for example. So as you come up with the ideas, we want to make sure that, hey, maybe this idea is going to require a new piece of fab equipment. We better start early engaging those fab equipment companies figure out, you know, can they make the equipment so that ultimately our vision and maybe again, this is where we\u0026#8217;re really kind of unique is even from the early research phase, we are thinking, how can we make a trillion manufacturable ones of these? We\u0026#8217;re not thinking, how can I do research and write a paper and call it a day? You know, every single idea that we have coming out of my group, we have done the work ahead of time to say, is there some fundamental reason why we couldn\u0026#8217;t make millions of chips with this idea?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:10.38\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nor And if there is, we better go work on it. Maybe this idea requires really exquisite process control. So now we got to go work with all of the right parties to make sure we can get that exquisite process control to make this a reality.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:23.41\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nWhat we don\u0026#8217;t want to do is have the idea and say, hey, the process control is somebody else\u0026#8217;s problem. Or the cost is somebody else\u0026#8217;s problem. you know Yeah, this is a great idea. It\u0026#8217;s going to be expensive. You figure it out.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:34.14\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nWe want to we want to make sure we we\u0026#8217;re thinking all the way down to the end game ah from the very beginning.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:34.29\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:40.74\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s crazy. Must be frustrating at times, then. Have these kind of potential roadblocks in the way. like You\u0026#8217;ve got to invent calculus. like what something your eyes\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:47.98\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, I\u0026#8217;m going to say exciting.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:48.74\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\ngetting\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:49.76\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah you you know I won\u0026#8217;t deny it\u0026#8217;s occasionally frustrating, but but we frame it as a problem we have to go solve. But you\u0026#8217;re absolutely right. In the same way, if we want if we want this to work, we have to do the equivalent of inventing calculus first and then using it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:04.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOh, I don\u0026#8217;t envy you.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:04.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:08.50\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOn that subject then, so um gate all around, you mentioned earlier, scaling and technology is like, is it ribbon FET?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:16.67\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, or ribbon FET. Ribbon FET is fine. Yep.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:20.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRepresent major advancements in transistor design. What makes these innovations so critical for the future of Moore\u0026#8217;s Law?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:27.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nthis ah This is the next evolution in the transistor. um And in fact, some would say it\u0026#8217;s probably the ultimate evolution in the transistor. if you If you could take all your knowledge of transistor physics and say, here\u0026#8217;s the cartoon version of a transistor I would like to make, it would look like ribbon FET.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:44.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nHuh.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:44.98\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt would look like ah you know The channel that conducts current is completely surrounded by the gate material that turns that channel on and off. So a transistor\u0026#8217;s a switch. It\u0026#8217;s on or it\u0026#8217;s off. And you would think, ah you know again, in a very idealistic world, you\u0026#8217;d say, if I could make a channel and I could control whether it\u0026#8217;s on or off completely, that would be the best switch. And completely in this case means you put the gate material all around it. so I would say some people would say that that this is kind of the gate all around ribbon-fed architecture is the ultimate evolution ah of our idea. you know and and um this is in in a case In this sense, this is how we\u0026#8217;re now going to deliver the next iteration of Moore\u0026#8217;s Law. We\u0026#8217;re going to use this with our ability to make transistors smaller ah and make them draw less power and make them faster.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:35.50\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\num Breakthroughs are needed. Here again, we announced a breakthrough at the same IEDM conference. ah We showed that you could take ah one of these ribbon-fed transistors and scale the the size of it by getting the gate. The gate is what controls the channel being on and off, as I said. You want to make that as small as possible. But the smaller you make it, the less it is able to turn the transistor on and off.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:01.43\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nah So it basically loses its ability to control the flow of electrons in that channel. ah We demonstrated that you can get that gate length down to a very small number of six nanometers. Nobody has ever shown that before. We showed that you can make a very good, ah healthy transistor down at that gate length. Gate length scaling is one of these fundamentals that came back from Dennard\u0026#8217;s law. Dennard\u0026#8217;s scaling said, hey, you got to scale the gate length if you want to make the transistor smaller.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:28.29\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nI\u0026#8217;d say a number of people in the industry were saying, that\u0026#8217;s not possible. We\u0026#8217;re kind of stuck where we are. And so we showed a breakthrough paper that says, we\u0026#8217;re not stuck, actually. We can get to six nanometers, which is which is a breakthrough.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:42.21\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nfrom From what you\u0026#8217;re describing, and I don\u0026#8217;t know why it popped, man. It sounded like almost organic in its structure, like ah like a cell or a neuron in a brain or something.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:54.21\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, these things begin, honestly, they begin to resemble that when you stare at enough pictures.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:54.39\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand this\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:58.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nthey they they They lose their, well, in the sense that I would say they lose their rectangularness.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:04.41\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:04.49\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nThey become a little blobby as as you know you continue to push the envelope.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:09.86\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:10.01\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nYour sharp bound sharp edges that you drew in PowerPoint don\u0026#8217;t appear on the physical structure that you\u0026#8217;re building. ah So yeah, I would agree with you. They kind of begin to take on an organic shape to them.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:21.40\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand Crazy. Anyway, so um yeah Intel Foundry has made strides in 2D NMOS and PMOS transistors. ah What are the key benefits of these developments and how will they shape the next generation of chip performance?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:36.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, thank you. um So, n moss and PMOS are the two different types of transistors we use as switches we\u0026#8217;ve used forever, collectively people refer to them as CMOS complementary metal oxide semiconductors, and that is n moss plus PMOS.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:51.87\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\num And that\u0026#8217;s been, again, our mainstream for since the the late 80s, I think. um the What we call 2D is now taking that channel that I just described to you, which is today made out of silicon, you know kind of think of it as like a little block of silicon in your brain, turning it into an extremely thin material that we now call a two-dimensional material. So the thing of it is we took this block of silicon and we turned it into like a little thin sheet of aluminum foil.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:22.33\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nah of a material that\u0026#8217;s not aluminum foil, but basically ah an infinitely thin sheet, what we call a 2D material. This is what we think is the next evolution of of gate all around transistors. We take that ideal structure. you know You would like to scale that channel. According to Bob Dennard scaling, you\u0026#8217;d like to make that channel smaller and smaller, thinner and thinner. Problem is, as you make it thinner, silicon kind of runs out of its ability to carry those electrons.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:50.16\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\num So we are running into sort of fundamental limits that says that block can\u0026#8217;t get any smaller, or it won\u0026#8217;t conduct current anymore. Well, you switch the material ah from silicon to, and there\u0026#8217;s many other materials that we use and ah and are exploring, but now you can take materials that are basically just a couple of monolayers of atoms thick, but have tremendous current carrying capabilities.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:10.68\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWell.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:14.34\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd here again, we we showed for the first time that you can make a gate all around ribbon-fed transistor with these two new materials with very good transistor characteristics. And we kind of showed here\u0026#8217;s what we have. Here\u0026#8217;s what the rest of industry has been reporting. you know And these are kind of record results. And short of show a path to how do you continue this transistor architecture, we\u0026#8217;re now going to make a materials change you know where you take the silicon channel out of the middle of it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:41.32\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nreplace this with this ultra thin 2D material. You\u0026#8217;ve got to pick the material right. You\u0026#8217;ve got to engineer things correctly. But when you do all of that stuff, you get an even better transistor out of it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:52.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWould carbon nanotubes have any future there?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:57.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\noh Not in this context, at least that\u0026#8217;s not the way we\u0026#8217;re seeing it. Carbon nanotubes is ah is an area of high interest. um it\u0026#8217;s running i would i\u0026#8217;m I\u0026#8217;m going to say, my view is it\u0026#8217;s running into some fundamental problems.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:10.98\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nokay\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:11.28\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nUm, you know, what we are looking at is, you know, the material systems were generally as an industry more interested in, and there\u0026#8217;s a wonky term is transition metal dicalcogenides. Uh, things like Molly disulfide as an example that we talk about, and then materials we don\u0026#8217;t really talk about too much.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:30.36\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\num These are kind of the more interesting directions. Carbon nanotubes was a material of interest, and it remains a material of interest. I think my personal opinion is it\u0026#8217;s probably going to run into some fundamental issues.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:42.86\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\num you know And I think if if I just dig into the reason why, carbon is a group four element just like silicon.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:44.29\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:49.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou know It\u0026#8217;s in the same column of the periodic table. It suffers from a lot of the same problems as silicon. um in terms of its ability to conduct ah as you try to make it thinner and thinner.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:00.97\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nso So we think that material system is probably not going to get us far enough. We\u0026#8217;ve got to look at some of these what would\u0026#8217; say more exotic materials to get us there.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:07.82\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay, okay, that\u0026#8217;s fair enough. um So improving interconnect performance is just as important as transistor advancements. ah Can you elaborate on how subtrative, oh God, ruthenium and air gap technology can change the game?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:21.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nYep.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:24.46\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nSure thing, yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:25.11\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nsee my bad\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:25.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd again, I\u0026#8217;ll start with a little context. um For everyone who\u0026#8217;s using any kind of electronics today, well, almost everyone, almost every other kind of electronics, those transistors have to be connected together to do anything.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:38.76\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo you can have a trillion transistors. If they\u0026#8217;re not connected, they\u0026#8217;re not going to do anything. And those connections are almost exclusively done with copper. So there\u0026#8217;s in every chip you buy, there are some miles of copper wire very, very small copper wire, but essentially miles of copper wire, and they\u0026#8217;re connecting everything together. um Copper has been with us since the mid-90s. Before copper, we used to use aluminum for the same wire. And copper came around in the mid-90s as kind of the next breakthrough in interconnect technology. And it has been great for about 30 years. But as you make those transistors smaller, you\u0026#8217;ve got to make those wires smaller.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:18.01\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd as copper wires get smaller, especially kind of the the dimensions they\u0026#8217;re getting to right now, they really become very resistive.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:27.54\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:27.64\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nso meaning you you\u0026#8217;re You\u0026#8217;re pushing current through the transistor, and the current really can\u0026#8217;t get fast enough through the wire to get to the next transistor. So the wire is why it\u0026#8217;s becoming your limiter, and copper is is really hitting a place where, at these dimensions, it really doesn\u0026#8217;t have the same ability to conduct. So at these dimensions, other materials can conduct better than copper.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:49.13\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd one of those materials is ruthenium. And again, this is back to finding all these elements in the periodic table that most people have never heard of, don\u0026#8217;t come across in their everyday lives. But they serve an important purpose for us. And and I think ruthenium is one of those materials ah you know I can predict down the road and some years from now. Everyone\u0026#8217;s going to have a lot of ruthenium in their pocket, and they\u0026#8217;re not even going to know it. um Because it does look like a very exciting um next step after copper.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:17.35\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo we did present a paper on ruthenium interconnects at the conference and talked about you know the advantages ruthenium offers over copper at these smaller dimensions. One of the things we added to that was what we this notion of air gaps. So now between these ruthenium lines, um the material that you have between them is very important because these lines essentially have some crosstalk to them.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:44.53\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou know As you put any two wires close together, you get a little crosstalk.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:44.76\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAlright.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:48.19\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nIf anyone\u0026#8217;s coiled up a bunch of speaker wire and heard a hiss or a hum on their speaker, this is the kind of crosstalk that\u0026#8217;s an inductive coupling that you hear in the speaker. There\u0026#8217;s different types of crosstalk between wires.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:00.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut you know what ah the material between the wires can create as a capacitive crosstalk. So these wires are kind of capacitively coupled.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:05.31\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:08.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nThey\u0026#8217;re talking, quote unquote, talking to each other, sharing information that we don\u0026#8217;t want between those wires. The air gap is one way to reduce that. So essentially, we\u0026#8217;re putting, you know think of it as air between the two wires. And air has a very good dielectric constant. And that reduces the coupling between the wires. So it enables these wires to transmit information faster because that\u0026#8217;s not going to become then contaminated wire to wire. So it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s a breakthrough. I think a lot of the industry took setup and took notice and said, hey, this could be,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:40.97\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nFor all of us, the next evolution of the wire on the chip.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:45.83\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nHow rare is ruthenium as an element?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:48.10\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nah It\u0026#8217;s plentiful enough. you know but part of what ah Put it that way. We do a lot of homework on these things up front. Like I said, when we when we begin researching something, we always check the, hey, is it cost effective? And B, can we make a however many billions of chips we expect to make in the future? so Early on, we do the paperwork to make sure that we\u0026#8217;re going to have an adequate supply of this.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:13.64\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou know Sometimes it is a material that\u0026#8217;s very rare. Sometimes it\u0026#8217;s a material that we can anticipate ah that geopolitically we won\u0026#8217;t have access to.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:24.50\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so we\u0026#8217;re mindful of those two considerations, you know the rarity of it, the cost of it, the availability of it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:24.69\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:32.04\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nliterally a decade before we\u0026#8217;re going to need that stuff. And so, you know, in the case of Ruthenium, trust me, we have made sure we\u0026#8217;re going to have more than enough for our purposes.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:40.92\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay. And for materials investors, wink, wink, nod, nod.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:45.71\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nWell, we make sure. I mean, look, neon is an example. A large fraction of the world\u0026#8217;s neon comes from the Ukraine.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:51.48\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:52.83\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so we have to do a lot of work, and neon is very important in in lithography in the semiconductor industry.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:53.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nthe\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:58.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nWe have to do a lot of work to make sure it\u0026#8217;s available. Things like half-neem, things like cobalt are materials that come from countries that we have geopolitical concerns about, and we have to make sure that that we can secure the supply chain.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e42:04.58\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyes\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e42:11.77\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nso It\u0026#8217;s a very real consideration in this industry to make sure that as we go away from the most abundant elements on the periodic table, we\u0026#8217;re really sure we know where they\u0026#8217;re coming from and that we can get them.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e42:23.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, absolutely. absolutely um okay As we approach the physical limits of our current technologies, what you see is the next major innovation needed to achieve ultra-low power consumption and meet the demands of AI.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e42:37.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, that\u0026#8217;s a great question and great thing to tee up. I would tell you one of the things that keeps keeps me up at night, keeps us up at night is the throughout all of the innovations created by Moore\u0026#8217;s law, ah one trend is troubling. And that is the consumption of power by computation and communication worldwide is growing at a much faster rate than the supply of power in the world.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e43:05.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight, roughly speaking, and you can see this, whether you talk about the US or or Europe or worldwide, the trends are similar. ah the The total computation plus communication power is growing at about a 25% compound annual growth rate. Driven a lot by AI today, but driven, you know, that growth rate has been fairly steady and this predates AI, but it\u0026#8217;s been growing at this 25% year over year compound annual growth rate. At the same time, the supply of energy Playa Power has been growing worldwide at at about a 3% compound annual growth rate.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e43:38.13\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWow.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e43:40.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nThose two lines are going to intersect at some point.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e43:42.55\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. Yeah, absolutely.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e43:43.13\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nah and And what you\u0026#8217;re starting to see now is beginning to be some side effects. You talk about companies building data centers and then talking about putting a nuclear power plant right next to their data center. Or you talk about companies that say, we\u0026#8217;re going to build our entire data center completely underwater because it\u0026#8217;ll be cheaper to cool it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e44:01.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou know And innovative. ideas that maybe work, maybe don\u0026#8217;t work. So I think we\u0026#8217;re you know we\u0026#8217;re running into a we\u0026#8217;re heading for that wall in that sense, that you know if you just draw those lines today, they intersect about 2040, so not that far away.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e44:17.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWow. Okay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e44:18.76\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nIn 2040, if we don\u0026#8217;t do anything, then all of our worldwide power supply will be going into computing and communication. no No power left to eat anything, no power left to fly anywhere or drive a car or any of that stuff.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e44:32.70\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nObviously, that\u0026#8217;s not going to happen. We\u0026#8217;re not going to sacrifice other things. What\u0026#8217;s going to happen is something different. From my point of view, I know plenty of people are working on the supply side of that equation. How do we supply more power? um I think one of the calls to action that I believe in, and I\u0026#8217;ve been advocating in in the industries, is we need to work on the demand side.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e44:52.68\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nhow do we deliver the same computation and demand less energy for doing it? And and there\u0026#8217;s some natural Moore\u0026#8217;s law aspect to it. Again, each of these transistors is expected to use less energy and has been for 60 years now. so So there has been ongoing. But even with that ongoing improvement in energy consumption per switch, we\u0026#8217;re on this upward trend because the demand for the that computation is outpacing.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e45:18.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo one of the things we\u0026#8217;re ah invested in and very interested in and one of my colleagues at the conference gave a ah nice talk about is the idea of making ultra low power switches. So a dramatic really step function decrease in the amount of power that one of these switches would take. These switches would be based on really an entirely new type of physics from a traditional transistor. And and frankly, they would require, in my opinion, a rethinking of the computation stack top to bottom. You have to rethink.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e45:48.34\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nHow do you build chips with this switch? How do you build a chip architecture with this design methodology? What\u0026#8217;s the software that sits on top of this? The whole paradigm would be completely different, I would say, from the classical von Neumann computing a paradigm that we have today. It\u0026#8217;s an exciting area. It has huge potential. It\u0026#8217;s also a daunting amount of work for the industry. um you know And this is where I think one of the roles we serve at Intel is to kind of Set that direction for the whole industry. This is coming. Here\u0026#8217;s all the things it\u0026#8217;s going to take to make it successful. And you know you can\u0026#8217;t do one thing in a vacuum. we We can\u0026#8217;t, for instance, just invent this new switch and stick it into an existing chip design. That probably isn\u0026#8217;t going to work. You have to reimagine the chip design. It\u0026#8217;d be like taking a house make out made out of brick and then swapping all the brick for blocks of ice.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e46:44.43\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou\u0026#8217;re not going to make a different kind of house that way. You wouldn\u0026#8217;t build an igloo the way you would build a big a brick house. So it\u0026#8217;s the same way we\u0026#8217;re going to have a different type of switch in the future based on a different type of physics, far more energy efficient, but but operating really in a different way. And that\u0026#8217;s going to require how do you then build everything above that till you get to a user experience ah has to be reimagined as well.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e47:09.48\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, yeah, absolutely. I think I saw with some AI proposals to make them faster and less power consumptive is to have kind of algorithms hard printed, hard coded onto um to a transistor or something.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e47:24.14\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand Would that be potentially a way of reducing power consumption?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e47:24.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. Absolutely. absolutely and And I would say the industry has been somewhat going in that direction for some time now um in the sense that we\u0026#8217;re more and more taking algorithms that were implemented in software. And when they\u0026#8217;re sufficiently, I think, robustified, take that algorithm and implement it in hardware. you know the Loosely, the term for this is is ASIC, Application Specific Integrated Circuit.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e47:50.03\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, that\u0026#8217;s the turn.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e47:51.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nand And more and more, I would say, products are coming out looking like these ASICs. So instead of maybe doing AI machine learning on a truly fully general purpose computer, you you get more and more purpose built. And essentially what you\u0026#8217;re doing is you\u0026#8217;re you\u0026#8217;re using exactly the number of transistors and exactly the type of transistors and wiring up in exactly the right way to achieve the one function you\u0026#8217;re trying to achieve.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e48:18.34\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd that\u0026#8217;s how you can do all of that function with any without any wasted power. you know And that trade-off is now you\u0026#8217;ve got something that\u0026#8217;s good for one thing or a couple of things, but it\u0026#8217;s not good for everything.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e48:26.97\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e48:29.56\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nright the The power of ah of a CPU is that it\u0026#8217;s highly general, and you can build a lot of things out of it. As you get more and more specified, it does one thing really well and efficiently, but it doesn\u0026#8217;t do anything else.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e48:43.93\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, that\u0026#8217;d be fine.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e48:44.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo the world, I think, is going to exist with both in the end.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e48:46.32\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, yeah. That would lead more to a kind of modular kind of computer system, wouldn\u0026#8217;t it? You can swap out. Basically like going, like your old um Game Boy with your game cartridge.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e48:52.41\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e48:55.44\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nhere\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e48:55.58\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. And here\u0026#8217;s where I\u0026#8217;m back to chiplets, right? Now you can have some of this functionality truly hard coded in a specific chiplet. And also I would say optimized with the type of semiconductor process that that chiplet needs.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e49:09.29\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nUh, and then you can have other functions on the, in the package built out of different shiplets. And part of that can be a CPU on a most advanced leading edge technology. Some of it can be DRAM or NAND or SRAM memory from a node that\u0026#8217;s optimized for that. Um, so so now you can kind of harness.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e49:27.70\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nthe most energy efficient way to do different tasks. Again, the secret is putting that all together in a package without squandering all that benefits in the package to pack it, you know, and the die to die transmission loss and things like that. That\u0026#8217;s easy to do. I would say every one of these things looks great in PowerPoint. Um, and, and the challenge is to make them really work well.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e49:47.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, absolutely. Fantastic. So moving back to the resource subject for our final question.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e49:52.90\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nYep.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e49:54.43\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo Intel is championing the effort to strengthen US semiconductor supply chain. What are the key benefits of regional diversification and how does it support global resilience in the industry?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e50:06.58\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, I would say this. I think the need for a resilient global supply chain is almost more clear than ever right now. you know If you just map the geopolitical conflict going on around us and you map the threats of geopolitical conflict that we\u0026#8217;ve been hearing about, you know the the steady drumbeat of those threats, ah the world demands a a geopolitically secure supply chain so that you have materials coming all the way from top to bottom in the stack from enough parts of the world that we\u0026#8217;re not going to be impacted by any one geographic location, basically supplying 90 plus percent of the of that section shit of the market. That\u0026#8217;s absolutely required. I would say when I look at it from the US context, um the US is obviously working diligently to rebuild its domestic supply chain. The the CHIPS Act was one example of that. I would say Intel is meaty in the middle of that. I think, as I said, we consider ourselves the stewards of Moore\u0026#8217;s law.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e51:06.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nkind of in the US context, the only company that does leading edge manufacturing in the US. We do all of our semiconductor manufacturing in the US and in Europe. We don\u0026#8217;t do any semiconductor way for manufacturing in the Far East.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e51:20.18\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nWe do some packaging in the Far East, but we don\u0026#8217;t do any of that in any.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e51:20.77\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e51:23.68\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd I think that the leading edge semiconductor world, which is very important say to AI and to the extent that AI is important to geopolitical considerations in the future,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e51:35.43\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nI would say that supply chain today looks very unbalanced. And so from our point of view, bringing balance back to it, bringing more leadership away from manufacturing to the US, to the extent that it services the AI market, to the extent that the AI market is, again, critical for the ah future of oh you know geopolitical safety and security, I think it all comes back to the same the same point.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e52:01.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely. That\u0026#8217;s the end of my question, Sanjay. Is there anything else you\u0026#8217;d like to add before we close up?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e52:08.03\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nI really and enjoyed this, Chris, and I think those questions were were spot on, first of all, and I appreciate you giving me the chance to wander into some wonky backstories here and there to lay out some context. um you know Again, I think we had seven papers at IEDM. You allowed me to talk about a few of them, and I appreciate that. Broadly, the theme, though, is we\u0026#8217;re we\u0026#8217;re continuing to innovate the research for the whole industry, not just for us.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e52:33.95\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd in getting examples like IEDM, we\u0026#8217;re making our results public. you know This isn\u0026#8217;t some secret we\u0026#8217;re keeping to ourselves. We\u0026#8217;re sort of showing the whole industry this is the path forward. ah Because we firmly believe that you know that that for all the reasons I said at the beginning, Moore\u0026#8217;s Law needs to continue. It\u0026#8217;s good for the world. um you know And it\u0026#8217;s important for those of us who are on the hook to deliver that we continue to do that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e52:59.10\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nFantastic. Is there any social media you\u0026#8217;d like to share? Websites or YouTube channels or\u0026#8230;\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e53:05.02\u003cbr /\u003e\nSanjay\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, i\u0026#8217;ll um I\u0026#8217;ll plug you in. I appreciate you giving us the plug. we We definitely have a lot of content on our website that stays up to date and points to our latest innovations and how they map into this thesis that I just laid out today.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e53:11.13\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e53:18.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nFantastic. with Sorry about that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eThat concludes this episode of Lexicon.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eThank you all for tuning in and being our guest today.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eFollow our social media channels for the latest science and technology news. Also, check out our latest merch at Interesting Engineering Shop.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eGoodbye for now.\u003c/p\u003e\n","episode_number":"71","sponsor_image":null,"sponsor_name":null,"sponsor_url":null,"hosts":[{"name":"Christopher McFadden","title":"Host","biography":"\u003cp\u003eChristopher graduated from Cardiff University in 2004 with a Masters Degree in Geology. Since then, he has worked exclusively within the Built Environment, Occupational Health and Safety and Environmental Consultancy industries. He is a qualified and accredited Energy Consultant, Green Deal Assessor and Practitioner member of IEMA. Chris’s main interests range from Science and Engineering, Military and Ancient History to Politics and Philosophy.\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/avatars/XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","title":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","name":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","description":"N/A","alt_text":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","reference":null}}],"speakers":[{"name":"Sanjay Natarajan","title":"Senior Vice President and General Manager of Intel Foundry","biography":"\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eSanjay is responsible for Intel\u0026#8217;s internal semiconductor research, external engagements with Universities and Consortia, and government engagements worldwide related to semiconductor R\u0026amp;D. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eDuring his 31-year career in the semiconductor R\u0026amp;D industry, Sanjay led the development of Intel\u0026#8217;s 14nm process technology, and before that, he led the development of Intel\u0026#8217;s industry-leading 32nm process technology. In addition to Intel, Sanjay has held senior executive positions at Applied Materials, where he led a group developing new types of semiconductor equipment focused on extending Moore’s Law. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eOutside of work, Sanjay is a Research Professor in the Department of Mechanical \u0026amp; Materials Engineering at Portland State University. He also serves on the advisory boards of the deans of engineering at Portland State University and Carnegie Mellon University. He serves on the Advisory Council for the National Science Foundation Engineering Directorate. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eHe is an IEEE member and received his BS, MS, PhD in Electrical Engineering from Carnegie Mellon University.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/sanjay.png","title":"sanjay.png","name":"sanjay.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"sanjay.png","reference":null}}],"introductions":"\u003cp\u003eIn this episode, we dive into the future of computing with \u003ca href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/sanjay-natarajan\"\u003eSanjay Natarajan\u003c/a\u003e, SVP and GM of \u003ca href=\"https://myfoundry3.intel.com/\"\u003eIntel Foundry\u003c/a\u003e Technology Research.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eFrom keeping Moore’s Law alive to breakthroughs in advanced packaging, AI, and materials, discover how Intel is shaping the next era of innovation in semiconductors and global technology leadership.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eAlso, check out our latest merch at \u003ca href=\"https://shop.interestingengineering.com/en-gbp/\"\u003eInteresting Engineering Shop\u003c/a\u003e.\u003c/p\u003e\n","host_introductions":null,"speakers_introductions":null,"player_code":"https://interestingengineering.com/podcast/lexicon/moores-law-at-60-how-its-still-changing-the-world","publish_date":"2024-12-19T14:25:24+00:00","publish_date_detail":"Dec 19, 2024 09:25 AM EST","status":1,"page_title":"Moore’s Law at 60: how it’s still changing the world","keywords":"Moore's Law","description":"","seo_title":"Moore’s Law at 60: how it’s still changing the world - Interesting Engineering","og_title":"Moore’s Law at 60: how it’s still changing the world - Interesting Engineering","og_image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/1-20.png","title":"1-20.png","name":"1-20.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"1-20.png","reference":null},"og_url":null,"og_type":null,"main_image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/1-20.png","title":"1-20.png","name":"1-20.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"1-20.png","reference":null}},{"title":"How 6G will revolutionize communication and innovation with Qualcomm's John Smee","abstract":"Join us as Qualcomm's John Smee shares how 6G will transform connectivity, AI, and global innovation over the next decade or so.","slug":"how-6g-will-revolutionize-communication-and-innovation-with-qualcomms-john-smee","transcript":"\u003cp\u003eWelcome to today\u0026#8217;s episode of Lexicon! I am Christopher McFadden, a contributing writer for Interesting Engineering.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eToday, we sit down with John Smee, Qualcomm\u0026#8217;s Vice President of Engineering and Global Head of Wireless Research, about the transformative potential of 6G and its role in shaping the future of global communication.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eFrom advancing AI integration to improving energy efficiency and rural connectivity, discover how Qualcomm drives innovation to redefine industries, empower content creators, and revolutionize how we work, learn, and interact in the coming decade.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eBefore getting into today\u0026#8217;s episode, we\u0026#8217;d like to talk about IE+ subscription plans. Interesting Engineering\u0026#8217;s exclusive membership allows you to access all content without ads.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eYou will receive our premium newsletter, the Blueprint Weekly, special discounts from IE Academy, Shop, and webinars.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eTo discover more premium features, visit the link in the description and enjoy the advantages of IE+ for 1$ only your first month. Now, let\u0026#8217;s continue with today\u0026#8217;s episode.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:00.77\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn, thanks for joining us. How are you today?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:03.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nVery good, thank you.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:04.70\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nExcellent. and For our audience\u0026#8217;s benefit, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, please?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:10.20\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, so I\u0026#8217;m John Smee, Senior Vice President Engineering at Qualcomm. Been there about 25 years, worked on 3G, 4G, 5G, and now ah leading the R and\u0026amp;D teams as we\u0026#8217;re looking forward to designing 6G.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:21.20\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nMan and boy, then. That\u0026#8217;s a long time.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:23.20\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\ni\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:25.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay then, um can you explain what 6G is and how it will differ from 5G in terms of capabilities and user experience please?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:33.83\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, it\u0026#8217;s always interesting. When we look at the Gs, we we like to say Qualcomm\u0026#8217;s in the G business. And typically, there\u0026#8217;s been a 10-year cadence between generations. you If we look at kind of the 4G era you know in 2010 and 2020, the 5G era um you know started around 2020. And we expect it\u0026#8217;s going to drive through the end of this decade. And that sets the stage for 6G being 2030 to 2040.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:58.12\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd one of the things then is what allows these generations to have you know gains over the prior generation, benefits for the users, for the efficiency, is that a lot of technology is moving forward. It\u0026#8217;s not just the fact that wireless is getting better. We can do more megabits per second. It\u0026#8217;s the fact that computing is getting better. Cloud computing is obviously changing. Huge point of inflection right now with AI, generative AI, ah the evolution of how we connect ah even the fact that to everyone\u0026#8217;s now, you know, can take a Zoom or a Teams call from their phone or from their laptop or from Wi-Fi or from cellular. So there\u0026#8217;s an interesting change in consumer behavior that comes about because these technologies take these bigger steps. And so that\u0026#8217;s the point that the generations\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:45.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nrepresent the big step that\u0026#8217;s generally speaking what we call non-backwards compatible. That is, it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s going to be ah capable of designing you know new new basically integrated circuits on the base station side, on the device side, because you\u0026#8217;re taking that next step forward ah in a bigger way. And this builds on all of the evolution that occurs um As we\u0026#8217;re moving through the 5G journey, obviously, you know, new exciting devices coming out every year, um Qualcomm, you know, leading a huge amount of connected compute devices, 5G, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, UWB, so much of that tech is changing. And at the same point, the generations are when we take a step backwards and say, what are some of the bigger things we can align globally on and take that next step together based on all of that technology\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:38.54\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\ncoming into what we call a new air interface.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:42.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay, well building on that then, so what is the current state of 6G in that case? if you if it\u0026#8217;s Is it going to be ready by 2030 or sooner?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e02:51.52\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, generally speaking, the industry timeline is quite converged to be ready for 2030. And that\u0026#8217;s obviously the beginning of the 6G deployments. So what\u0026#8217;s interesting about the research part is it begins many, many years but before the standardization and then we\u0026#8217;re about to be embark on the standardization. So within the 3GPP, that\u0026#8217;s the global standards body where cellular systems today are standardized. um We\u0026#8217;re already talking about what are interesting 6G use cases. What are some of those KPIs, those performance indicators? you know What do we want to make better in a concerted way? What is the focus of all of that engineering ah innovation?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e03:32.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nWhat are we trying to solve? How are we putting the pieces together in a new framework? And at the same time, economics absolutely comes into it. So how can we be cost effective? How can we make sure that the you know upgrades for an infrastructure vendor, for an operator, um are very, very cost effective, reusing whatever we can, and at the same time, still bringing the benefits. So so to your point on the 2030, yeah, we\u0026#8217;re in this the stage now where we\u0026#8217;re discussing use cases,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:01.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbout 12 months from now, we\u0026#8217;re going to really begin in earnest with the what we call the release 20 study item around 6G. And there\u0026#8217;s going to be a workshop um you know at the end of you know basically around March 2025. And so there\u0026#8217;s a workshop where within the 3G community, all the companies globally are coming together to say, hey, let\u0026#8217;s put this stamp on it. And then let\u0026#8217;s then begin the study items. And then this works its way ah through 2728 into what we call the work item. And that\u0026#8217;s when literally the specification is written. And the reason these specs are important, um I give the example, it\u0026#8217;s the reason your phone works, wherever you get off the plane, ah whatever base station you\u0026#8217;re talking to, because people are adhering to that global standard. And so the point of the interoperability between devices and networks, and even as you hand off from one network provider to another one as you\u0026#8217;re you know driving through the countryside,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e04:58.69\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nthat\u0026#8217;s all based on the power of the standard. And so the point is the standard will be completing around, you know, 2028, 2029 timeframe. And we expect that to kind of formalize approximately, you know, halfway through 29. And that\u0026#8217;s what enables then the development of the tech to really make its way ah into those new devices around 2030.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:20.90\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nLet\u0026#8217;s see. So it would be see um an incremental increase and from previous generations from memory. You go from three to four, you get 3.5. And then you might get 4.5. Would I expect to see a 5.5 in 2028, 2029, something like that?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:35.60\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, right it always comes down to others, kind of the marketing terminology. ah We\u0026#8217;re actually in what we call now 5G advanced.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:40.60\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:43.82\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSome may term that 5.5G.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:43.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:46.48\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAt Qualcomm, we take the G transition seriously enough that we don\u0026#8217;t tend to ourselves use what I call non-integer generations, because there\u0026#8217;s generally an assumption of you\u0026#8217;re actually always moving it forward.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e05:59.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nah One way to think of it, between every generation, There\u0026#8217;s probably six or so releases of the standard. you know So 5G started with release 15 in the standard.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:10.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:10.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nright And each of these releases takes about a year and a half, two years or so, plus or minus. And so there is a release 15, 16, 17. That was the first half of 5G.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:21.45\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd now releases 18, 19, 20 are the second half of 5G itself. and And we\u0026#8217;re already you know within release 19 now. And 5G Advanced is officially defined as releases 18 and beyond.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:34.64\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so in some sense, we are entering that second half of 5G from a technology standpoint, from a future device standpoint.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:34.62\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:44.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo there is going to still be a lot of interesting 5G stuff making its way into the market in the next few years ahead of that 2030 timeline.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e06:53.01\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nI see. Presumably you you would expect to receive 6G in the sort of cities, urban centers first before, because obviously you need to upgrade existing ah hardware, presumably.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:05.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, and one of the interesting things is when we look at cellular, the fundamental value proposition of cellular is things like coverage, capacity, you know, the fact that it works everywhere, the fact that it works, whether you\u0026#8217;re indoors, whether you\u0026#8217;re outdoors, the fact that it works, whether you\u0026#8217;re in your car, whether you\u0026#8217;re on a bicycle, whether you\u0026#8217;re sitting in the back of a taxi, whether you\u0026#8217;re, you know, sitting at a picnic table or at a coffee shop.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:14.23\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e07:27.98\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so part of that is then the incentive to really make sure we\u0026#8217;re fundamentally improving what what it means for people to rely on cellular. and And one way to think about that technology and to your point on would it start in the urban centers or would start more you know in rural markets, it\u0026#8217;s about how people use the technology and in some sense, what are the overall coverage and capacity capabilities of the current network and if they\u0026#8217;re adding more spectrum or if they\u0026#8217;re using spectrum more efficiently\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:01.51\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nthen that\u0026#8217;s translating into better user experiences. And I think one way to think about it is is you almost have to look at, if we look at say 2019 today, you know, pre-COVID, pre that kind of change in in where people were working and hybrid work. So you go all the way back to 2019 and you think, well, how was I using my device then? You know, what was I doing? but Even what applications were on my cell phone ah in 2019? And you think of today, what do you do on your device?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e08:30.82\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd all of a sudden you start like, wow, there\u0026#8217;s a lot of things I do differently ah in terms of you know whether people are watching streaming video, whether people are real time uploading a video stream that they\u0026#8217;re filming, like a content creator. you know We look at them, the notion of people are actually using a lot more capacity. They are actually doing a lot of stuff they wouldn\u0026#8217;t have done five years ago. And so the interesting part of these generations of technologies You can kind of fixate on the data rate, you know how many megabits or gigabits per second, but that\u0026#8217;s almost less meaningful than thinking, what are the applications you use within a given day where you\u0026#8217;re leveraging cellular? And that\u0026#8217;s something where the changes are more foundational because 5G brought so much capacity into what was then the LTE networks that, quite frankly, were running out of bandwidth. And so it\u0026#8217;s something when we\u0026#8217;re looking to 6G, we\u0026#8217;re absolutely going to be adding capacity\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e09:28.90\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nWe\u0026#8217;re also going to be making sure we improve ah existing bands and at the same time we\u0026#8217;re working globally to have new spectrum allocated to meet these future demands because we are seeing continued consumption increases on how people are using the wireless technology either from the base station to the device or vice versa from the device app to the base station. And I would say an interesting way to look at that is um to kind of think about what is the data being generated within the device. Because it can often be looking at, it well, I can do download streaming. I can watch a video. And I can watch the video today. And maybe I have one or two screens. Maybe I have three or four screens. Yeah, at some point, you have a certain number of fixed screens that you could be watching, typically one one per person. And at that point, hey, that saturates. But what\u0026#8217;s not saturating is how people are starting to use\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:23.56\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nthe technology more and more, and then also how things like AI are changing all of a sudden, what does it mean for a device to not be connected? So the value of a connected device. So at Qualcomm, we will talk about the edge of the network. And what we mean by the edge, that\u0026#8217;s where, you know, the smart school, the smart hospital, the factory,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e10:45.51\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nah you know a setting where where people are are outdoors, a setting where people are indoors, whether it\u0026#8217;s work or whether it\u0026#8217;s a sports event, a stadium or a shopping mall, or whether they\u0026#8217;re driving in their car. And how they start using this technology, all of a sudden is generating more traffic because that value is really being generated at the edge of the network. It\u0026#8217;s how we all interact with our various types of devices. And so as the AI power,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:14.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nof those devices is getting you know stronger and stronger every year. At Qualcomm, we have a huge amount of focus on generative AI on the device where we can actually implement you know quantized versions of these large language models with 7 billion parameters, an example, on the device. So all of a sudden, the device is much more intelligent and is still interacting with the network. The way that device is sharing its information, it\u0026#8217;s over 5G, it\u0026#8217;s over Wi-Fi, it\u0026#8217;s over Bluetooth, et cetera.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e11:43.60\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo there\u0026#8217;s a lot of wireless connectivity that is getting challenged more because of the role of AI and the role of no not just what\u0026#8217;s happening in the cloud, but what\u0026#8217;s happening at the edge, you know where the people are doing their jobs, engaging with their entertainment, engaging with their education, engaging in health care. So that\u0026#8217;s an interesting part that the sort of use cases that drive the traffic needs of these new generations they change on, um sometimes they\u0026#8217;ll change slowly and then they\u0026#8217;ll change quickly. And so that\u0026#8217;s the interesting part of we\u0026#8217;re in this transformation because of AI. And as so many industries are starting to use AI, it starts putting new future opportunities for the communications piece. And so I would argue that communications and computing are becoming more intertwined. They were generally viewed a little separately. You know, you had your,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e12:37.97\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nyour laptop, and then you had your desk or you had your desktop, you had your laptop, you had your smartphone, and you did your compute stuff, and you maybe did some cloud computing. Oh, and then separately, yeah, yeah what\u0026#8217; you\u0026#8217;re connecting to the internet.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e12:49.56\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nWell, now you can\u0026#8217;t really do computing unless you\u0026#8217;re connected.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e12:53.49\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nHmm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e12:53.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd then where you\u0026#8217;re doing your computing is changing. It\u0026#8217;s not just humans sitting at a desk ah you know engaging in a presentation or or creating a document. It\u0026#8217;s the fact that that content generation and the value creation, if you will, those are really now untethered. And so that\u0026#8217;s, for us, but represents kind of the exciting technology. As my team\u0026#8217;s designing 6G research, yeah, we\u0026#8217;re really engaging on where\u0026#8217;s augmented and virtual reality going? Where\u0026#8217;s connected automobiles going? How are factories being transformed? How is healthcare being transformed? Whether it\u0026#8217;s ah the evolution of of smart wearables, whether it\u0026#8217;s\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:32.92\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\ndifferent ways of monitoring patients you know from telehealth perspective. All of that actually has a repercussion to the communication system we\u0026#8217;re designing. So it\u0026#8217;s kind of a complicated answer to a question of how people are using the generations and what sort of pieces come into it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e13:51.95\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, I think ki one bottleneck that comes to mind, say you want to use as much, but but really fancy stuff for AI when you computer, but you\u0026#8217;re in a rural setting and the infrastructure is just not up to scratch to handle 6G. How can that be overcome so that, especially with more remote working and or business, e-commerce bit, whatever, people having more business online, perhaps they don\u0026#8217;t want to be in the cities. they want to benefit from 6G, but the the infrastructure in their local village, they just can\u0026#8217;t handle it. Is there a way around that?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:27.09\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nWell, I would say there\u0026#8217;s two parts to that answer. And and one is that the 60 itself will indeed have significant you know capacity and coverage gains even for for rural areas. That will actually be a big focus where it\u0026#8217;s not just about urban. It\u0026#8217;s really about if we look at things like connected agriculture or transforming kind of the value of that connectivity.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e14:49.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nObviously, IoT has been a word that\u0026#8217;s had many different meetings over the past couple of decades. But right now, there really is this recognition that things that are connected can be more intelligent. And once they\u0026#8217;re connected, where computing happens, to your point, yeah, it\u0026#8217;s not always happening in the cloud, you want an instantaneous, fast decision, if it\u0026#8217;s a straight, like, there\u0026#8217;s a notion of inference, that is how you make the decision. And then there\u0026#8217;s training.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:17.80\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo you could train in the cloud, but in many instances, you\u0026#8217;re going to be able to actually implement the AI on the device. And so that\u0026#8217;s something where you\u0026#8217;re running the the the models, if you will, the large language models, you\u0026#8217;re running that actually on the device at the endpoint, whether it\u0026#8217;s the sensor, whether it\u0026#8217;s the smartphone, the XR glasses, the smartwatch. And so that\u0026#8217;s the interesting part that there\u0026#8217;s been a lot of focus on AI in the cloud. But as AI moves into the device,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e15:46.36\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nthen all of a sudden, absolutely, you\u0026#8217;re able to do more stuff autonomously right at the device. And at the same time, we are improving the communications capabilities of those devices, recognizing that whether it\u0026#8217;s the radio frequency inner circuit and integrated circuits, the baseband integrated circuits, how we use spectrum and how we achieve coverage, it\u0026#8217;s really interesting to think of the this the many, many intelligent ways that multiple antennas, as an example, but where you\u0026#8217;re combining signals, you\u0026#8217;re able to steer the energy to you know the intended device. And at the same time, the base station is able to pull together the information from a device that\u0026#8217;s far away. So the coverage of these cellular systems is getting a lot better because of sophisticated processing techniques. And so that\u0026#8217;s the other interesting thing is that AI itself is also actually improving the cellular system. So we have AI on the device\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e16:43.86\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nto improve the wireless capabilities in addition to the applications. And we hit AI in the network, improving how things are scheduled, improving the orchestration of the system, improving the what we call the quality of service so that you\u0026#8217;re getting that information at the right latency, at the right data rate, with the right you know payloads and and and situations. So there\u0026#8217;s a lot of interesting intersection between AI and 5G today and AI with 6G tomorrow, because it\u0026#8217;s a tool, it\u0026#8217;s an application, it\u0026#8217;s a technology, ah it\u0026#8217;s a use case, and it becomes pervasive. And so once that that um computing part becomes pervasive, then the pervasive communications becomes much more important.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:31.47\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay, would something like Starlink help with this? Obviously you\u0026#8217;ve got to physically, if you\u0026#8217;re out in the rural areas, either you\u0026#8217;ve got to build the cell towers, upgrade them or lay better cables.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:42.84\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nIf you just stick it on satellites, I mean you\u0026#8217;ve got to upgrade the satellites I suppose, presumably at some point in the future, but I guess that\u0026#8217;ll be a way around this.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:51.20\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nWell, satellites are are actually, it\u0026#8217;s a great question because satellite the intersection of satellite and cellular is getting stronger and stronger.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:51.36\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nPretend\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e17:58.01\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo even within 5G itself, there\u0026#8217;s something called non-terrestrial networking, NTN. It\u0026#8217;s kind of a funny acronym. um And so NTN was part of the release 17 specification, you know, that completed a few years ago.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:05.40\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:10.84\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo even my R and\u0026amp;D team has implemented, you know, release 17 compliant NTN device modifications so that it can communicate, um you know, over what would be a satellite link.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:22.33\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so the role of then coverage and the global coverage afforded by a satellite constellation of LEOs, like low earth orbit satellites, That is actually, you know, today it can complement wireless in certain scenarios. And that\u0026#8217;s what you\u0026#8217;re seeing. if If you\u0026#8217;re seeing a lot more recognition that, yeah, people do want to fall back, whether it\u0026#8217;s an emergency calling the the kind of, hey, someone got lost hiking and they\u0026#8217;re out of cellular coverage, they\u0026#8217;re they\u0026#8217;re deep, deep, deep away from any sort of infrastructure. It would be awesome if they had a satellite modem functionality in that device. And so those are some of the things that are happening now.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e18:59.32\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd at the same time, we\u0026#8217;re actually designing, even as part of 6G, that integration of terrestrial and non-terrestrial networking so that it\u0026#8217;s a smoother thing, and and also so that there\u0026#8217;s more economies of scale.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:09.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThank you.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:11.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nYou know you wouldn\u0026#8217;t expect every single operator ah to launch their own satellite constellation. So the reality of the the the the global um situation for satellites and the spectrum aspects, those all become really, really important because that\u0026#8217;s what defines the economic you know viability of of operating a constellation and operating the system. And so what\u0026#8217;s interesting now is a recognition that, hey, it would be great in addition to connecting to what we call those VSAT, those like fixed, you know, larger satellite, we used to call them satellite dishes right back in the day on your on your home. Maybe that was for watching television.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e19:50.38\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nWell, now there\u0026#8217;s a notion, hey, I\u0026#8217;m going to have ah a more compact one that\u0026#8217;s more sophisticated, and I could be using that for for you know basically accessing the Internet. um And then we start saying, hey, what are some techniques to bring that all the way into the phone? And so it\u0026#8217;s in a device that\u0026#8217;s in in the palm of your hands.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:08.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nvery sophisticated, cadeted antenna circuitry. you know What are we also doing with different frequency bands to make that feasible? And so the point is that we\u0026#8217;ve designed 5G, which is this very, very capable, what we would call the waveform as in what\u0026#8217;s being transmitted over the air.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e20:25.94\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nhey there\u0026#8217;s nothing stopping you from putting that over a satellite, but we have to account for the fact that those low Earth orbit satellites, those LEOs, are actually circulating the globe at a very high velocity. So we\u0026#8217;re undoing some of the phase shifts of the ah basically the the what we call the Doppler compensation. So there\u0026#8217;s a lot of interesting technology stuff to say, let\u0026#8217;s make that that satellite link to the phone um be you know robust and have that performance level. So for Qualcomm, this is a very exciting area. And you may know that even deep in our history, ah we we had the global star satellite system where we were one of the key designers of that whole thing. So we had a lot of satellite know-how and a lot of interesting system trade-offs come in. And that\u0026#8217;s why it\u0026#8217;s been kind of exciting as part of 5G, 6G. There\u0026#8217;s so much saying, hey, let\u0026#8217;s really make sure we\u0026#8217;re we\u0026#8217;re having those critical conversations about satellite, about drones,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e21:20.55\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nabout different types of what we call high altitude platforms. Because we\u0026#8217;re also seeing, that\u0026#8217;s a great also use case that ah you know things that are like drones that are, and you start talking into what\u0026#8217;s 100 meters off the ground, what\u0026#8217;s 300 meters off the ground ah versus you know where a satellite is, a GEO or or a LEO. And so all of a sudden you\u0026#8217;re realizing, hey, there\u0026#8217;s actually this this space air ground integrated network aspect where um and you would say, hey, is that a user terminal flying around in the air? Or is it a base station flying around in the air? right You can take a different perspective to um to what it is. right And so the point is, there are scenarios where you have a you know like a satellite system would be where it\u0026#8217;s like it\u0026#8217;s like the base station\u0026#8217;s in the sky. Well, there\u0026#8217;s also, yeah, but of a drone, where the drone is like the user is in the sky, and it\u0026#8217;s being communicated to with a ground network that has slightly different antenna\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:17.09\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nah pointing to address ah you know drones that are are are flying around. And then you start saying, well, those drones then could also maybe serve some of additional users because they\u0026#8217;re up there and they have a ah wide ah field of view. So from a technology standpoint, we at Qualcomm, we have a lot of interesting research and development across all of these different scenarios to make sure we\u0026#8217;re kind of bringing the value across many of these different use cases. So it\u0026#8217;s definitely a a great question because it It does touch on a lot of different parts that tom it\u0026#8217;s not a pure cellular answer. It\u0026#8217;s really more about how the technology ecosystem, the use cases, the capabilities are evolving globally.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e22:58.20\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting. So in in the future we could have, well not blimps, but large balloon carrying antennae basically, I guess. for one for but\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:07.80\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nparticularly You could historically and even in the relatively short history, a few years ago, it\u0026#8217;s turned out to be you know, less um economically robust and saying, hey, let\u0026#8217;s just make sure we have a really sophisticated base station.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:21.07\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:21.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nBecause the point is the base stations now are connected by fiber. And so that is incredibly robust and which is where if you look at a lot of global operators, um they might be cellular operators, they\u0026#8217;re absolutely investing in their fiber footprint.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e23:34.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so I think that\u0026#8217;s an important part that there is a real value to a robust terrestrial as in ground-based network. And so we do see a lot of, that\u0026#8217;s one of the interesting things that cellular technology is kind of now recognized to be part, like a significant part of the communications grid, right? The backbone of society. So the role of the wireless part and the wired part from a, you know, nations, um you know, basically,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:07.07\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nconnectivity footprint and backbone, they\u0026#8217;re they\u0026#8217;re kind of viewed as really being symbiotic. And so I think that\u0026#8217;s where saying, hey, we\u0026#8217;ve got to put everything up in the sky. is all it\u0026#8217;s\u0026#8217;s It\u0026#8217;s great when you\u0026#8217;re there\u0026#8217;s certain scenarios like you\u0026#8217;re over the ocean, it\u0026#8217;s the only option you have, or you\u0026#8217;re incredibly far away from civilization, then it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s ah it\u0026#8217;s a great option. The reality is that the the terrestrial networks are also They have more technologies that enable them to go farther. ah They you know lay fire over huge distances and then all of a sudden you\u0026#8217;re you\u0026#8217;re bringing connectivity much deeper than you were you know a decade ago.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e24:44.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, with modern economies going more online, being more digital, I guess from ah a strategic point of a national security point of view, having it on the ground, terrestrial, safer, inverted commas than things in the air or even satellites, which could be destroyed, intercepted.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:01.51\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd then, yeah, yeah communications are down, right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:02.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:03.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, that makes a lot of sense. You mentioned agriculture and some other industries, but ah what other industries could benefit from SIGG technology and how?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e25:15.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, I think one of the interesting ones that you can look at augmented virtual reality as like people would say, hey, that was the you know the key example because it and aligns from a it\u0026#8217;s kind of ramping already as we speak. right There\u0026#8217;s a lot of new types of devices coming. You might have seen those Ray-Ban glasses that could communicate. And all of a sudden, this notion of having um you know the The speakers be built into the sides of the the glasses, the frame, versus like specifically in your ear. They\u0026#8217;re actually you know basically that different type of speaker technology were from a vibration standpoint. So there\u0026#8217;s a lot of interesting stuff where AR, VR is a really interesting use case because it\u0026#8217;s evolution and expansion dovetails really well with the communication alignment of what\u0026#8217;s going on in 5G advanced into 6G.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e26:06.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut I would say what\u0026#8217;s also really interesting is you kind of take a step back and you start looking at connected health care. Well, that\u0026#8217;s a good example where it\u0026#8217;s not so much that, oh my gosh, I can\u0026#8217;t talk to my doctor on a ah video call on 5G, let alone 4G. It\u0026#8217;s really the fact that that 5G and into 6G, that world in 2030 is going to be so much more immersive in terms of how you interact um in the field of medicine. So what is the information that a nurse or a physician\u0026#8217;s assistant or a doctor has when they\u0026#8217;re engaging with the physical patient in front of them? What\u0026#8217;s the information that the patient and the doctor or that the medical provider has ah when the person\u0026#8217;s returned home? What\u0026#8217;s the sort of information in terms of real-time data from sensors? And how does that you know benefit from\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:01.03\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nthe broader information that\u0026#8217;s in the cloud. So you can look at information in terms of its instantaneousness, like is it immediate, like it it took your blood pressure right now, like every time you go to the doctor\u0026#8217;s office, they still take your blood pressure as you sit down. Because that\u0026#8217;s like a real time reading. So regardless of anything that\u0026#8217;s going on, this data point correlates with some things and they they kind of want to know that number.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e27:24.46\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so there\u0026#8217;s a lot of other numbers that will be beneficial to know right away, just in terms of a quick view of patient\u0026#8217;s health. And then you have the fact of that your particular ah history. They can have your long-term history, your family history, and then there\u0026#8217;s your your intermediate history is in like, hey, what\u0026#8217;s been going on the last six months or so? How is that you know ah situation healing? What\u0026#8217;s the particular health concern you have at this moment? And then you have the huge amount of medical history um and why doctors still have to go to school for a long time. There\u0026#8217;s a lot of stuff to learn. And so what I think is interesting is that communications evolution from 4G to 5G, 5G to 6G, from 2010 to 2020, 2020 to 2030. And then you take an example like healthcare and you think of the information flow and what\u0026#8217;s actually going to improve an outcome for you. It\u0026#8217;s much more meaningful than did I get like X megabits per second,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:23.03\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nor you know two twice as much megabits per second. I think the point of that value being about the connectivity combined with the information, that\u0026#8217;s the kind of journey that many different industries are on. So that 6G continuum where we move into a world of 20, 30 applications, a world of 20, what does the industries look like? So many industries today are being transformed by AI, ah and so all of a sudden,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e28:52.52\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nworkflows are changing, things are being digitized, workers are getting made more productive, right? So that\u0026#8217;s one of the other interesting things is going back to that AR VR, you can view it concretely of, of hey, what is the AR VR, you know, chip set sales for a company like Qualcomm? Or what are the AR VR applications? Or what are the AR VR use cases?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e29:13.67\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nThe reality is you can look at that in a broader context of, well, how is a factory worker going to be using augmented virtual reality? How is a medical person going to be using AR-VR? When are students going to just be wearing smart glasses that is providing contextually relevant additional information beyond what the teacher\u0026#8217;s saying? And when is the teacher going to be taking their classroom through a digital twin of some learning example where all of a sudden that merging of what we call the physical, digital, and virtual worlds, that\u0026#8217;s going to be much more significant in the 2030 timeframe than it is today. So those are examples where that 6G connectivity, the fact that we\u0026#8217;re improving coverage, improving capacity, improving latency, improving the overall ah user experience, and the fact that so many different types of devices are being connected.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e30:09.93\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nYou know, that\u0026#8217;s something where I view it as transforming a variety of these industries. um You can look at it bottoms up and you can look at it tops down. And so that\u0026#8217;s where the bottoms up part is that each of those industries are they\u0026#8217;re trying to solve real problems. If I\u0026#8217;m a factory owner, I\u0026#8217;m trying to compete with my competitors who may or may not be in my own country. They may have different pricing competition. And so all of a sudden for me as an enterprise, how I use technology There\u0026#8217;s an absolute component to where can I raise the sophistication and capabilities of what I\u0026#8217;m doing. And then there\u0026#8217;s a relative component of investment and return and risk and reward. And so that 6G opportunity transforms these industries along with other interrelated technology like AI and cloud and the types of connected IoT devices, the way humans are going to be doing their computing in 2030.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:05.55\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so for me, it\u0026#8217;s something where I look at the health care side, and I look at the enterprise side, you know, the so-called office worker of the future, or you look at the medical practitioner of the future, or you look at the educator of the future, and we talk of agriculture in the future. You know, what\u0026#8217;s that information that\u0026#8217;s a naming enabling the the farmer to be more efficient with crop yields, you know more efficient with what are they planting? How are they watering it? Are they wasting water? um you know How are they handling that entire value chain? And anyway so that\u0026#8217;s where, from my standpoint, it represents a lot of different things coming together within kind of this top-down framework of, hey, every 10 years, as an industry globally, we get to design a much more capable\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e31:53.95\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\num system that leverages the past assets that brings in new capabilities that we couldn\u0026#8217;t evolve to so it\u0026#8217;s always a mixture of evolution plus revolution a mixture of reuse with you know new designs and so you\u0026#8217;re bringing that that those things together and obviously it gets mapped across the economic realities of of who\u0026#8217;s deploying who\u0026#8217;s paying what is the economics um enabling this broader part and i think to your point as well on the the um globally yet countries care about this.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:26.29\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nMm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:26.46\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nThey care about how connected their society is, because the same way they care about what the what\u0026#8217;s the health of their society, what\u0026#8217;s the, um you know, the educational capabilities of their society, what is affecting their GDP opportunities to grow that?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e32:40.39\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nHow is that country competing with other countries? ah How are some things that are more absolute, where, hey, if we all do this better, we can actually improve the energy efficiency of the overall networks in every country, and that benefits everybody um from an energy consumption standpoint. So there\u0026#8217;s a lot of things where there\u0026#8217;s the local micro competition of enthusiastic new business opportunities. And then there\u0026#8217;s the reality that as you aggregate and take those steps away, that you realize, oh, there\u0026#8217;s multiple operators in every country that in multiple countries are all looking at things in an interrelated, connected world.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:16.94\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWe could also produce new industries, I guess, as well. completely I don\u0026#8217;t know if gaming, you could have fully immersive gaming or it could chip completely change cinema.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:28.54\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nI don\u0026#8217;t know, tourism.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e33:29.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely. No, and that\u0026#8217;s what the point of content creation and sharing, right? I think one of the other trends that that is, you know, a macro trend is what we call the long tail of content, right? It\u0026#8217;s back to the day where there\u0026#8217;s only three TV stations and that had all the shows you wanted to watch, or at least we\u0026#8217;re aware of. So that was your only choice. So it was a self fulfilling. I\u0026#8217;m going to watch one of these three networks versus now, you know, individual people can become creators and They\u0026#8217;re going to find an audience, and that audience is going to be curated, and that people are going to change based on what other people like watching. And then all of a sudden, the creation of content\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:09.81\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nand their remuneration to your point on the economics of of, for example, being a video streamer, creating content in a way that\u0026#8217;s relevant to your audience. Like, hey, I\u0026#8217;m i\u0026#8217;m going to create this travel blog.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:21.35\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nlast I don\u0026#8217;t know the last time you went on a vacation, but almost surely you were doing a little bit of video watching. Oh my God, we should go to this site. And here\u0026#8217;s this interesting video. And they\u0026#8217;re describing this historical thing.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:31.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd at the same time, they\u0026#8217;re saying, and this is the perfect coffee shop to stop in after you\u0026#8217;ve you know seen that ancient castle. So all of that stuff.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:37.87\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e34:39.52\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\num involves that that kind of content creation, content communication, and all of a sudden the the the quality of the the camera in your smartphone today is incredible, which is enabling that. you\u0026#8217;re not you know You don\u0026#8217;t have to bring a video crew with you to sit down in a coffee shop and talk about the ambiance and and and the situation. And so you take that to the next step forward. um We have large language models today. There\u0026#8217;s large video models.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:08.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\num There\u0026#8217;s large, you know, basically you go from from text and you start getting into, you know, like basically images that are still and obviously a series of moving and of still images is a moving image. And then all of a sudden you start realizing there can be a much more sophisticated ah digital twin of something where putting on that AR VR headset, you immerse yourself into that environment.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:37.58\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd then all of a sudden um that kind of, I see what you see, I have smart glasses on, they have cameras, they they have microphones. I\u0026#8217;m interacting in my physical environment. I can share that ah with my friend, with my father maybe who can no longer travel.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:51.74\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd he can see, hey, you know, dad, take a look at this. And all of a sudden he\u0026#8217;s also, you know, puts on his goggles and he\u0026#8217;s immersed in the same view.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:54.74\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nMm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e35:59.90\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo there\u0026#8217;s a lot of examples like that that make me really optimistic about that intersection of where is 6G going, where are the use cases coming that I think the way society connects, the way we look at augmenting, you know, human productivity, augmenting human experiences, basically a more, um you know, intuitive way that that technology and those human computer interfaces change.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e36:27.23\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo we kind of got used to our keyboards and our mouses. And that is absolutely on a very you know fast journey of changing. And so going back to that, how do people use tech when they\u0026#8217;re at work today? ah Even what is the definition of their work productivity, the stuff they do approximately eight hours a day? That\u0026#8217;s actually changing really quickly. And so the communications and computing and on-device AI and generative AI I think all of that stuff happening right now. That\u0026#8217;s why it\u0026#8217;s kind of so exciting that our 60 team is really immersed in a lot of these different technologies and use case explorations because we\u0026#8217;re trying to drive it into this broader opportunity across many different use cases. And reality is we don\u0026#8217;t really know what\u0026#8217;s that one perfect use case. It\u0026#8217;s really more about let\u0026#8217;s make sure we\u0026#8217;re making the most fundamental robust improvements in the core technology so that it\u0026#8217;s ready\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:25.06\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\num you know come come the future time periods.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:28.58\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, it got me really excited. so Bring on 2030. Something that might hamper its development is obviously government regulations and whatnot.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:39.35\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo what challenges do you foresee with 6G globally?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:43.95\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nI mean one of the interesting things is we\u0026#8217;ve seen a very strong, um even as there\u0026#8217;s always a lot of discussion of of trade wars and geopolitical conflict, of we\u0026#8217;ve seen a huge amount of\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:43.95\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nin the\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e37:54.67\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nof recognition across every country that this is something when we\u0026#8217;re stronger together. So having that unified global standard is more efficient. It doesn\u0026#8217;t hold back any particular country. It creates an equal playing field of opportunity. And so that\u0026#8217;s a great example where we have seen actually a very strong continued um interest in that single global 5G, 6G standard.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:22.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd that\u0026#8217;s a really important one because that\u0026#8217;s where to the point on where nations are cooperating, where companies are cooperating, where industries, you know, they\u0026#8217;re even competing.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:26.18\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nMm hmm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:32.84\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nObviously, there\u0026#8217;s car companies in every country. um But at the same time, the automotive industry say, hey, we can actually bring cellular into vehicles, right, which is why almost any vehicle you buy today is going to have that cellular connectivity.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e38:46.54\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so how is that digital transformation of that connected experience changing? Well, that\u0026#8217;s something where you want to have that happen on a global scale and um and that that standard brings that together. So in my view, the the the kind of opportunities and risks, we are seeing a recognition of the value in that global system, right? Where Qualcomm\u0026#8217;s obviously been an innovator in in the generations for many, many years now, for decades.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:15.46\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd it\u0026#8217;s something that\u0026#8217;s that\u0026#8217;s really important because then from a horizontal standpoint, we\u0026#8217;re able to bring that innovation to a larger number of of industries and applications and use cases are without there being like um fragmentation and kind of like what we call NRE where everyone\u0026#8217;s fighting with each other. So it\u0026#8217;s a great example where there\u0026#8217;s a huge amount of opportunity for differentiation and product competition and service competition. But at the same time, the global standard itself is that level playing field.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:47.44\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nright\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e39:47.56\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so that\u0026#8217;s something where whether it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s um you know Europe, Asia, India, Japan, China, Korea, what have you, United States, South America, all of that kind of coming together to use that single global standard is a great example of international cooperation and recognition.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:05.04\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so in my view, um one of the interesting parts of those generations is that on that 10 year cadence, everyone\u0026#8217;s kind of thinking long term together And I think that\u0026#8217;s that part where what makes the generations different is the accumulation of little things into big things combined with, you know, separate new revolutionary technologies that were impossible in the future that are now possible. So you\u0026#8217;re bringing that accumulation together in a concerted way to kind of meet those future needs. And that\u0026#8217;s where we really leverage that international cooperation.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:40.09\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOK, fair enough. um In your view, what what steps are being taken to ensure 6G networks are energy efficient and sustainable?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e40:51.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, energy efficiency is actually ah it\u0026#8217;s a it\u0026#8217;s a great question, because it\u0026#8217;s a big focus of when we look at the operational economics of operating a network, ah you can look at, you know, you got to get the spectrum. And in some countries that that\u0026#8217;s free in other countries, there\u0026#8217;s an auction, it\u0026#8217;s a competitive auction, a complicated bidding process. um Obviously, people are then operating these networks, they have employees who are who are basically managing the deployment of the infrastructure, the maintenance of the infrastructure, the hardware, software upgrades, all of that stuff.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:21.59\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut the other point is that the energy consumption is also really important. So just as you would have seen a lot of um points around what\u0026#8217;s the AI compute efficiency?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:25.51\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:33.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nWhat are the power needs of artificial intelligence? Well, at Qualcomm, we\u0026#8217;re driving a lot of interesting techniques into, hey, let\u0026#8217;s make sure that base station device is as efficient as possible in terms of you can think of um you know how many megabits per second or the transfer of information.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e41:51.66\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nin a volumetric way. So in a given period of time over a given 3D amount of space or two-dimensional like a city, how many bits were transmitted from the network to devices and vice versa? And as a function of time, how many kilowatt hours? That is, how much energy was expended? So we call that energy per bit. And even it goes very, very deep all the way down to the math.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e42:17.80\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nof E-B over N-NOD. So if you talk to any communications engineer and they they mentioned information theory or communication theory, that term is incredibly important, energy per bit. So that\u0026#8217;s something that the industry has been improving over time, but there\u0026#8217;s a real of focus now in saying, hey, how can we actually um you know look more specifically at the energy consumption of these transmissions? And so there\u0026#8217;s a lot of power savings techniques that are built into the device You might not know how often the device is shutting down little pieces of the circuitry, what we call you know sleep modes. And there\u0026#8217;s deep sleep. There\u0026#8217;s light sleep. There\u0026#8217;s deep light sleep. It\u0026#8217;s a huge amount of sophistication to make sure the device is waking up, listening, transmitting, going to sleep, and all those things. The same time, the network is also becoming more responsive. So how it\u0026#8217;s it\u0026#8217;s you know what how much energy is being consumed at 2 AM versus at 5 PM in the rush hour traffic?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e43:15.02\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so there\u0026#8217;s a lot of examples where what we\u0026#8217;ve been bringing into the standards is is improved techniques around that um basically interaction between the network and the device. How often can certain um you know things be avoided? How often can we synchronize timing so it\u0026#8217;s more targeted so that things are happening at just the right time? So the network\u0026#8217;s more responsive. It\u0026#8217;s not just broadcasting stuff all the time in case anyone happens to drive by.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e43:42.48\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt starts to do a little bit of that so that if you randomly turn on your phone at two in the morning, it\u0026#8217;s not like, oh, the base station is sleeping. I guess I\u0026#8217;ll wait till 6 a.m. No, you\u0026#8217;re going to get a signal. But it is done much more efficiently and it\u0026#8217;s done across all the different bands and bandwidth so that um it\u0026#8217;s more optimized. So the short point is that AI and that kind of sophistication of the network is making it more responsive.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e44:05.72\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd that\u0026#8217;s what enables it it it to kind of you know consume a lot less power when it doesn\u0026#8217;t need to. And when it is communicating power for that specific communication needs, that\u0026#8217;s what we term the spectral efficiency, the bits per second per Hertz. We\u0026#8217;re actually making that better with new modulation, the coding, the waveform design.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e44:26.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nthe peak to average ratio of the power amplifiers, etc. So it kind of combines a series of what we call link techniques and network techniques, where you have to view the broader system It\u0026#8217;s not just the fact that you only have to charge your phone once a day and it\u0026#8217;s is\u0026#8217;s doing huge amounts of stuff, like basically ah crazy amounts of stuff.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e44:44.59\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nIf you think about 10 years ago or 20 years ago, what you did on your same phone that you still have to charge but once a day.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e44:46.98\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\noh yeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e44:50.44\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\num And you didn\u0026#8217;t have this awesome screen with amazing graphics and a CPU and a GPU and an NPU and neural processor all within the phone, all the multimedia processing, all the cameras, very impressive audio.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e45:03.76\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd I still charging it once a day. That\u0026#8217;s incredibly impressive. And at the same time, yeah, what are some of the techniques we can do on the network side?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e45:11.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOh yeah. presumably AI would also help improve it, kind of improve each other when they cross-pollinate.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e45:18.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nExactly. and And one way to think about it is that historically, communication systems were very statistical. That is, you you design for some distribution, some average, some worst case, the fifth percentile of this, the 95th percentile of that, the average or median user experience.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e45:37.38\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nWell, now the point is the system can be but become more predictive. It understands the applications you\u0026#8217;re using. It could even understand your drive route. It can be able to you know predict things better. So as you move um from a statistical, hey, let\u0026#8217;s just design for the general worst case, and we over-provision on average just in case so that we\u0026#8217;re designing for the busy hour, as it were. um No, now the system\u0026#8217;s actually much more responsive.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e46:04.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nand it\u0026#8217;s more predictive and more adaptive. So we can actually adapt to, oh my gosh, the Super Bowl is happening. It was all these people who are in the stadium right now. So what can we do to really steer capacity in that direction at that point in time and how does that evolve? So it is interesting where one of that kind of journeys as we\u0026#8217;re kind of designing into 6G is the fact that the system, I mentioned the word digital twin earlier,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e46:30.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nthe system becomes more responsive and it basically becomes hyper localized so it\u0026#8217;s doing just the right thing at the right time your phone has like machine learning built into it the algorithms that are happening on the phone the algorithms that are happening on the base station are intertwined so they can efficiently share that workload so it\u0026#8217;s a really rich area of of R and\u0026amp;D, and I have a specific team working on just that intersection as they\u0026#8217;re saying, hey, how can they design what I call an artificially intelligent air interface? So we\u0026#8217;re bringing AI into the network, into the device, and even into the standard itself. So that communications protocol ah between the device and the network has the AI built into it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e47:13.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay, so with networks coming smarter and more connected then how will 6G address things like cyber security and data privacy?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e47:21.61\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, so that always is an incredibly important topic. And so what\u0026#8217;s interesting on the security part, it\u0026#8217;s ah it\u0026#8217;s about basically ah there\u0026#8217;s an implementation aspect. There\u0026#8217;s the fact that your you know your device itself needs to be secure. The network needs to be secure. And so there\u0026#8217;s also the fact that how do we use encryption? How do we design the end-to-end systems?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e47:42.66\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so recognizing that the surface area of cellular, the number and types of connected devices is only getting larger. That\u0026#8217;s why there\u0026#8217;s there\u0026#8217;s always been a focus. There\u0026#8217;s a specific study group, and sorry, you a specific working group within 3GP called SA3, where they actually focus on that security piece. And so a lot of the industry experts come together and say, hey, let\u0026#8217;s make sure that that error interface is as secure as possible. Let\u0026#8217;s make sure that what\u0026#8217;s happening at the core network side.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e48:11.07\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nWhen you first power on your phone, um let\u0026#8217;s make sure that the system um is is precluding what we call these kind of man in the middle attacks or spoofing where there\u0026#8217;s a fake base station that your phone connects to.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e48:23.55\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo there\u0026#8217;s the software implementation side to make sure the algorithms are good. And then there\u0026#8217;s the fact that we can actually embed um you know basically security and root of trust right into the silicon. And it even gets into supply chain um yeah you know visibility that we know, particularly for our integrated circuit business, where are those chips were fabricated. We understand that supply chain part. We understand that secure root of trust all the way at the all the way into the transistors you know within the chip.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e48:53.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nlet alone the algorithms that are operating at the network. And so that\u0026#8217;s one of the parts where as the you know we moved away from, hey, cell phones were just for making voice calls back in the day um to the fact that, no, this is really a connected backbone of society.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e49:11.04\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nindustries are relying on this. um A lot of systems even, you know, we think of of connected vehicles and and the value that they\u0026#8217;re placing on that cellular link. So there\u0026#8217;s a lot of focus on that reliability and as you say as well, that security piece.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e49:26.11\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt sounds like blockchain will become important then, or more important. Looking forward to seeing.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e49:29.58\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nWell, blockchain is always interesting as, you know, a distributed ledger technology. And I\u0026#8217;m glad you said blockchain and not Bitcoin. So we\u0026#8217;re not talking on the you know, value of of these different currencies, as opposed to the fact that it was also a technology. and And what\u0026#8217;s interesting about it is, and this kind of gets into these kind of intellectual constructs of distributed versus centralized. And so just like you could say, it\u0026#8217;s a distributed you know currency versus a centralized bank. The same thing is true and in technology that when is an algorithm centralized?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e50:03.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo it\u0026#8217;s not like there\u0026#8217;s one all-knowing scheduler that knows every single connectivity across the whole country, and it\u0026#8217;s deciding every little thing. No, we actually build robustness into the communications protocol by enabling autonomous behavior from a device. right So the device, yeah, you turn on your device whenever you want, and and what\u0026#8217;s the algorithms running within that phone? How are the algorithms running within the base station?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e50:27.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so we often talk about this distributed intelligence where you, just from a scaling standpoint, you don\u0026#8217;t want to have it all centralized because that creates a bottleneck. And also to your point on the robustness of distributed algorithms. So a distributed algorithm whose performance is close to the centralized performance is very compelling. And you you might have heard um if you look also at machine learning and this this notion of federated learning.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e50:56.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd if I learn a little bit and you learn a little bit, then together we learn more, right? And then a third person comes in and all of a sudden we know a lot. So that exchanging of information that\u0026#8217;s relevant to the different parties who are gathering that information, that\u0026#8217;s a good way to make the system more robust, more secure.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e51:04.41\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nMm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e51:14.68\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\num and And it kind of goes back into the algorithm design itself. When is it distributed? When is it centralized? ah When is there cooperation between units? How how are things shared and and kind of leveraged across each other?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e51:28.80\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay, well it feeds it nicely to my last question. and So what\u0026#8217;s your vision of the world with 6G in place? How do you think it will shape the evolution of global communication and innovation over the next decade?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e51:40.77\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, when I look at that next decade, that 2030 to 2040, it\u0026#8217;s really important to to take that broader timeline of how people are going to be using technology And how are they going to be doing computing and communications and improving their daily lives? And so it\u0026#8217;s an interesting part. My vision for how we\u0026#8217;re driving our 6G research is to make sure we\u0026#8217;re attacking the right problems where we\u0026#8217;re getting that performance improvement. We know what we can make better. Well, let\u0026#8217;s push that as hard as possible.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e52:11.06\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo it\u0026#8217;s not about perfectly predicting the unique scenario. It\u0026#8217;s about making sure that global 6G system and the innovations that go into it are as profound and fundamental as possible so that we\u0026#8217;re designing for that unknown future, and at the same time building in that flexibility that it can adapt to these different scenarios based on on how these, you know, whether it\u0026#8217;s a smart school, a smart factory, a smart hospital, all of those different things are going to use the technology differently.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e52:40.34\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so from my standpoint, that international cooperation, you know, we do a lot of collaboration with academics globally. It\u0026#8217;s a great example where you\u0026#8217;re bringing together super long-term topics with short-term realities with, hey, what sort of integrated circuit can I build? What sort of process technology am I going to use from a fab standpoint to make that 2030 product? But I\u0026#8217;m bringing together kind of massive mathematical constructs that have been getting research for many, many years.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e53:07.84\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so, in my view, that 6G vision is really about bringing together evolution and revolution, long-term academic research with short-term business realities and making sure, hey, how are we making something that\u0026#8217;s going to be as relevant as possible for many of these markets and kind of getting that information that\u0026#8217;s uniquely relevant to, hey, this is going to be really important for this portion of the of the opportunity. But how do I make sure that I can map that to others as well to get that reuse? So I\u0026#8217;m very optimistic on the kind of global 6G system coming together. And right now, there\u0026#8217;s all that discussion between companies, between industries, between governments saying, hey, this is our our goals for that connected future. Can I improve my GDP? Can I improve you know the health care of my citizens? um Can I improve that overall communications backbone?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e54:03.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so for me, it\u0026#8217;s really that continuum of evolution, recognizing there\u0026#8217;s a unique opportunity that\u0026#8217;s coming as part of this generational change. Let\u0026#8217;s bring a lot of this technology forward into that framework.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e54:17.83\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nExcellent. um It\u0026#8217;s the end of my questions. Is there anything else you\u0026#8217;d like to add that we haven\u0026#8217;t discussed regarding 6G you can think of?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e54:25.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nI know it\u0026#8217;s really been my my pleasure to chat with you, and it\u0026#8217;s been a really enjoyable conversation for me.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e54:31.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nah You\u0026#8217;ve got me pumped, man. It\u0026#8217;s very exciting.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e54:33.49\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e54:34.53\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nand Before we go, is there any social media or websites or something you\u0026#8217;d like to share with our audience?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e54:40.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nah Yeah, we can um we can basically, if we look at the the Qualcomm dot.com, there\u0026#8217;s a lot of interesting you know research parts that\u0026#8217;s specific to how we\u0026#8217;re designing our 6G vision, ah some of the blogs that we call the 6G Foundry, um where we\u0026#8217;re putting together and and and kind of have been sharing our kind of most provocative concepts in one spot.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e54:44.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYep.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e55:00.47\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nso basically yeah our our kind of research website. and And we have a lot of stuff that becomes public every year as part of these international demonstrations, where that also helps put a physical um specificity to it. So there\u0026#8217;s a ah technology demonstration part, early vision for for how we see it coming together, not just in paper and PowerPoint, but actually, you know, physical prototypes and demonstrations. And so that\u0026#8217;s something we showcase every year in Barcelona at MWC.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e55:29.37\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd at the same time, we actually have it all visible um at Qualcomm.com. So very exciting to share that with the audience.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e55:34.31\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nExcellent. Fantastic. um Well, in that case, thank you for your time, John. That was genuinely very interesting.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e55:42.80\u003cbr /\u003e\nJohn Smee\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eThanks very much.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eThat concludes this episode of Lexicon.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eThank you all for tuning in and being our guest today.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eFollow our social media channels for the latest science and technology news. Also, don’t forget to explore IE+ subscription plans.\u003c/p\u003e\n","episode_number":"71","sponsor_image":null,"sponsor_name":null,"sponsor_url":null,"hosts":[{"name":"Christopher McFadden","title":"Host","biography":"\u003cp\u003eChristopher graduated from Cardiff University in 2004 with a Masters Degree in Geology. Since then, he has worked exclusively within the Built Environment, Occupational Health and Safety and Environmental Consultancy industries. He is a qualified and accredited Energy Consultant, Green Deal Assessor and Practitioner member of IEMA. Chris’s main interests range from Science and Engineering, Military and Ancient History to Politics and Philosophy.\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/avatars/XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","title":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","name":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","description":"N/A","alt_text":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","reference":null}}],"speakers":[{"name":"John Smee","title":"Senior Vice President of Engineering and Global Head of Wireless Research at Qualcomm","biography":"\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://www.semi.org/en/node/22776\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eJohn Smee\u003c/a\u003e is Senior Vice President of Engineering and Global Head of Wireless Research at \u003ca href=\"https://www.qualcomm.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eQualcomm\u003c/a\u003e, where he oversees all 5G/6G and Wi-Fi R\u0026amp;D projects, including systems design, standards contributions, and advanced radio, hardware, and software research testbeds and technology trials with industry partners. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eHe joined Qualcomm in 2000, holds \u003c/span\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eover 200\u003c/span\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003e U\u003c/span\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003e.\u003c/span\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eS\u003c/span\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003e.\u003c/span\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003e Patents, and has focused on the innovation and commercial launches of wireless communications across 5G NR, 4G LTE, 3G CDMA, and IEEE 802.11. He also leads Qualcomm’s companywide academic collaboration program across AI, augmented/virtual reality, automotive, IOT, security, semiconductor, and wireless. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eJohn was chosen to participate in the National Academy of Engineering Frontiers of Engineering program and served on the National Academy of Medicine Committee on Emerging Science, Technology, and Innovation. He received his Ph.D. in electrical engineering from Princeton University and holds an M.A. from Princeton and an M.Sc. and B.Sc. from Queen\u0026#8217;s University.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/smee.png","title":"smee.png","name":"smee.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"smee.png","reference":null}}],"introductions":"\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eToday, we sit down with John Smee, Qualcomm\u0026#8217;s Senior Vice President of Engineering and Global Head of Wireless Research, about the transformative potential of 6G and its role in shaping the future of global communication.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eFrom advancing AI integration to improving energy efficiency and rural connectivity, discover how \u003c/span\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://www.qualcomm.com/\"\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eQualcomm \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/a\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003edrives innovation to redefine industries, empower content creators, and revolutionize how we work, learn, and interact in the coming decade.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eAlso, check out our \u003c/span\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://interestingengineering.com/subscribe?plan=personal-monthly\"\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003esubscription plans\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/a\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003e to discover Interesting Engineering’s premium features. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n","host_introductions":null,"speakers_introductions":null,"player_code":"https://interestingengineering.com/podcast/lexicon/how-6g-will-revolutionize-communication-and-innovation-with-qualcomms-john-smee","publish_date":"2024-12-12T16:13:08+00:00","publish_date_detail":"Dec 12, 2024 11:13 AM EST","status":1,"page_title":"How 6G will revolutionize communication and innovation with Qualcomm's John Smee","keywords":"6G","description":"","seo_title":"How 6G will revolutionize communication and innovation with Qualcomm's John Smee - Interesting Engineering","og_title":"How 6G will revolutionize communication and innovation with Qualcomm's John Smee - Interesting Engineering","og_image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/1-19.png","title":"1-19.png","name":"1-19.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"1-19.png","reference":null},"og_url":null,"og_type":null,"main_image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/1-19.png","title":"1-19.png","name":"1-19.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"1-19.png","reference":null}}]},"episodeData":[{"title":"Dynasafe: Making the world safer, one bomb at a time","body":"Discover how Dynasafe tackles unexploded ordnance, from innovative bomb containment to eco-friendly solutions. CEO Charlie Diggs shares insights into global safety challenges.","hosts":[{"name":"Christopher McFadden","title":"Host","biography":"\u003cp\u003eChristopher graduated from Cardiff University in 2004 with a Masters Degree in Geology. Since then, he has worked exclusively within the Built Environment, Occupational Health and Safety and Environmental Consultancy industries. He is a qualified and accredited Energy Consultant, Green Deal Assessor and Practitioner member of IEMA. Chris’s main interests range from Science and Engineering, Military and Ancient History to Politics and Philosophy.\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/avatars/XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","title":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","name":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","description":"N/A","alt_text":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","reference":null}}],"speakers":[{"name":"Charles Diggs","title":"CEO of Dynasafe","biography":"\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eCharles Diggs is the Chief Executive Officer of Dynasafe. Passionate about making the world a safer, cleaner place, he initially joined Dynasafe in 2014 as Managing Director for the Americas after destroying chemical weapons for the US Army as a contractor for over 11 years. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eCharles has also served as a contractor for destroying weapons for the US Army and as a Nuclear-Trained Mechanical Technician in the US Navy Submarine Service. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eIn addition, he possesses an Associate of Science (Engineering) Degree and a Bachelor of Science in Business Management from Jacksonville State Univ\u003c/span\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eersity.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/charles-diggs.png","title":"charles-diggs.png","name":"charles-diggs.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"charles-diggs.png","reference":null}}],"episode_number":"78","publish_date":"2025-02-13T13:00:58+00:00","url":"dynasafe-making-the-world-safer-one-bomb-at-a-time","img":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-26.png","imgAlt":"1-26.png","timePassed":"2/13/2025","category":"Episode 78"},{"title":"Timing is everything: how SiTime drives innovation in modern electronics","body":"SiTime is revolutionizing the $10B timing industry with its MEMS-based precision timing solutions, enabling faster, more resilient, and energy-efficient electronics across AI, EVs, IoT, and beyond.","hosts":[{"name":"Christopher McFadden","title":"Host","biography":"\u003cp\u003eChristopher graduated from Cardiff University in 2004 with a Masters Degree in Geology. Since then, he has worked exclusively within the Built Environment, Occupational Health and Safety and Environmental Consultancy industries. He is a qualified and accredited Energy Consultant, Green Deal Assessor and Practitioner member of IEMA. Chris’s main interests range from Science and Engineering, Military and Ancient History to Politics and Philosophy.\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/avatars/XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","title":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","name":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","description":"N/A","alt_text":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","reference":null}}],"speakers":[{"name":"Piyush B. Sevalia","title":"Executive Vice President of Marketing at SiTime","biography":"\u003cp\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://www.sitime.com/company/leadership/piyush-sevalia?srsltid=AfmBOopyyevsRnqLFBohFeSYRXMFhUlAaVEzigu2oPhL5IstUKVYgEi9\"\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003ePiyush B. Sevalia\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/a\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003e has served as our Executive Vice President of Marketing since April 2012. Mr. Sevalia previously served as our Vice President of Marketing from March 2008 to April 2012. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eBefore joining SiTime, Mr. Sevalia held various marketing positions at Ikanos Communications, a semiconductor and software development company, including vice president of access infrastructure products from October 2006 to March 2008, marketing head of access products from April 2006 to September 2006, and director of product marketing from September 2000 to March 2006. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eFrom July 1991 to September 2000, Mr. Sevalia held various positions at Cypress Semiconductor, a semiconductor company, including senior marketing manager, strategic marketing manager, senior / staff applications engineer, and applications engineer. Mr. Sevalia holds a bachelor’s degree in electrical engineering from the University of Mumbai, a master’s degree in electrical engineering from the University of Michigan, and a master’s degree in business administration from the University of California, Berkeley.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/piyush.png","title":"piyush.png","name":"piyush.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"piyush.png","reference":null}}],"episode_number":"75","publish_date":"2025-02-06T13:19:41+00:00","url":"timing-is-everything-how-sitime-drives-innovation-in-modern-electronics","img":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-25.png","imgAlt":"1-25.png","timePassed":"2/6/2025","category":"Episode 75"},{"title":"Bridging the energy gap: AI and the future of data centers","body":"Discover how AI's energy demands drive a data center boom, reshaping grids and sparking debates on sustainability and innovation.","hosts":[{"name":"Christopher McFadden","title":"Host","biography":"\u003cp\u003eChristopher graduated from Cardiff University in 2004 with a Masters Degree in Geology. Since then, he has worked exclusively within the Built Environment, Occupational Health and Safety and Environmental Consultancy industries. He is a qualified and accredited Energy Consultant, Green Deal Assessor and Practitioner member of IEMA. Chris’s main interests range from Science and Engineering, Military and Ancient History to Politics and Philosophy.\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/avatars/XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","title":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","name":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","description":"N/A","alt_text":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","reference":null}}],"speakers":[{"name":"Professor Benjamin Lee","title":"Professor at the University of Pennsylvania","biography":"\u003cp\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://directory.seas.upenn.edu/benjamin-c-lee/\"\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eBenjamin C. Lee \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/a\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eis an Electrical and Systems Engineering and Computer and Information Science Professor at the University of Pennsylvania. He is also a visiting researcher at Google in the Global Infrastructure Group. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eDr. Lee’s research focuses on computer architecture (microprocessors, memories, data centers), energy efficiency, and environmental sustainability. He builds interdisciplinary links to machine learning and algorithmic economics to better design and manage computer systems. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eIn collaboration with Harvard, his research on sustainable computing received an Expedition in Computing award from the National Science Foundation in 2024. He received his post-doctorate from Stanford University, a Ph.D. from Harvard University, and a B.S. from the University of California at Berkeley. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eHe has also held visiting positions at Meta AI, Microsoft Research, Intel Labs, and Lawrence Livermore National Lab. He is an IEEE Fellow and ACM Distinguished Scientist. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/ben-lee.png","title":"ben-lee.png","name":"ben-lee.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"ben-lee.png","reference":null}}],"episode_number":"74","publish_date":"2025-01-30T15:23:00+00:00","url":"bridging-the-energy-gap-ai-and-the-future-of-data-centers","img":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-24.png","imgAlt":"1-24.png","timePassed":"1/30/2025","category":"Episode 74"},{"title":"From vodka to hydrogen: exploring LiquidPiston’s revolutionary X-Engine","body":"Alec Shkolnik of LiquidPiston shares how the revolutionary X-Engine is reshaping power generation, from military to multi-fuel hybrid innovation!","hosts":[{"name":"Christopher McFadden","title":"Host","biography":"\u003cp\u003eChristopher graduated from Cardiff University in 2004 with a Masters Degree in Geology. Since then, he has worked exclusively within the Built Environment, Occupational Health and Safety and Environmental Consultancy industries. He is a qualified and accredited Energy Consultant, Green Deal Assessor and Practitioner member of IEMA. Chris’s main interests range from Science and Engineering, Military and Ancient History to Politics and Philosophy.\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/avatars/XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","title":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","name":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","description":"N/A","alt_text":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","reference":null}}],"speakers":[{"name":"Dr. Alexander Shkolnik","title":"Co-founder and CEO of LiquidPiston","biography":"\u003cp\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/alecshkolnik\"\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eDr. Alexander Shkolnik\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/a\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003e is co-founder and CEO of LiquidPiston, where he provides operational, strategic, and technical oversight toward developing and commercializing a new type of advanced rotary engine.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eDr. Shkolnik holds degrees in neuroscience, computer science, and math. He also has a PhD from MIT’s Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory (CSAIL), where he studied high-dimensional motion planning for legged robots. Alexander received an NSF Graduate Research Fellowship and continued as a postdoctoral researcher at MIT before starting and joining \u003ca href=\"https://www.liquidpiston.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eLiquidPiston\u003c/a\u003e full-time. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eAlexander has 63 patents issued or pending and has authored over 25 peer-reviewed journal and conference publications.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/alex.png","title":"alex.png","name":"alex.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"alex.png","reference":null}}],"episode_number":"73","publish_date":"2025-01-23T14:55:04+00:00","url":"from-vodka-to-hydrogen-exploring-liquidpistons-revolutionary-x-engine","img":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-23.png","imgAlt":"1-23.png","timePassed":"1/23/2025","category":"Episode 73"},{"title":"AI's Energy Crisis: Innovations Shaping the Future of Computing","body":"From CMU research to industry leader: How Efficient Computer revolutionizes chip efficiency for real-world AI and edge computing.","hosts":[{"name":"Christopher McFadden","title":"Host","biography":"\u003cp\u003eChristopher graduated from Cardiff University in 2004 with a Masters Degree in Geology. Since then, he has worked exclusively within the Built Environment, Occupational Health and Safety and Environmental Consultancy industries. He is a qualified and accredited Energy Consultant, Green Deal Assessor and Practitioner member of IEMA. Chris’s main interests range from Science and Engineering, Military and Ancient History to Politics and Philosophy.\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/avatars/XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","title":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","name":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","description":"N/A","alt_text":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","reference":null}}],"speakers":[{"name":"Brandon Lucia","title":"CEO and co-founder of Efficient Computer","biography":"\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://brandonlucia.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eBrandon Lucia\u003c/a\u003e is the CEO and co-founder of \u003ca href=\"https://www.efficient.computer/about\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eEfficient Computer\u003c/a\u003e, a Carnegie Mellon University spin-off revolutionizing energy-efficient computing. With over 20 years of experience in computer hardware and software, Brandon is also a professor at Carnegie Mellon, where he has led pioneering research in energy-constrained and resource-efficient computing. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eHis work focuses on tackling the limitations of traditional chip architectures, enabling breakthroughs in AI, IoT, wearables, and space technologies. Under Brandon’s leadership, Efficient Computer is redefining what’s possible with its groundbreaking Fabric processor, delivering unmatched efficiency and adaptability for real-world applications.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/brandon.png","title":"brandon.png","name":"brandon.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"brandon.png","reference":null}}],"episode_number":"72","publish_date":"2025-01-16T15:27:43+00:00","url":"ais-energy-crisis-innovations-shaping-the-future-of-computing","img":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-22.png","imgAlt":"1-22.png","timePassed":"1/16/2025","category":"Episode 72"},{"title":"AI-Powered Architecture: Redefining the Future of Design and Sustainability","body":"Learn how AI helps architects and engineers streamline workflows, cut carbon emissions, and achieve innovative, sustainable designs.","hosts":[{"name":"Christopher McFadden","title":"Host","biography":"\u003cp\u003eChristopher graduated from Cardiff University in 2004 with a Masters Degree in Geology. Since then, he has worked exclusively within the Built Environment, Occupational Health and Safety and Environmental Consultancy industries. He is a qualified and accredited Energy Consultant, Green Deal Assessor and Practitioner member of IEMA. Chris’s main interests range from Science and Engineering, Military and Ancient History to Politics and Philosophy.\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/avatars/XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","title":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","name":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","description":"N/A","alt_text":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","reference":null}}],"speakers":[{"name":"Sina Flynn","title":"Guest","biography":"\u003cp\u003eSina Flynn, PE, is a senior structural engineer and project manager at Little Diversified Architectural Consulting. With over seven years of experience, she has led the design and management of diverse architectural projects across the United States, specializing in steel building structures.\u003cbr /\u003e\nSina is a pioneer in integrating AI solutions into structural design, driving efficiency, sustainability, and innovation. She holds a Master of Science in Civil and Environmental Engineering.\u003cbr /\u003e\nShe is pursuing an MBA at the Kellogg School of Management to further her mission of advancing cutting-edge engineering practices.\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/amazon-cover-v2.png","title":"amazon-cover-v2.png","name":"amazon-cover-v2.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"amazon-cover-v2.png","reference":null}}],"episode_number":"72","publish_date":"2025-01-09T16:22:41+00:00","url":"ai-powered-architecture-redefining-the-future-of-design-and-sustainability","img":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/amazon-cover-v2.png","imgAlt":"amazon-cover-v2.png","timePassed":"1/9/2025","category":"Episode 72"},{"title":"Meet Elora: Monitoring baby wellness with AI","body":"Discover how Elora uses AI to revolutionize baby care, offering modern parents insights and peace of mind.","hosts":[{"name":"Christopher McFadden","title":"Host","biography":"\u003cp\u003eChristopher graduated from Cardiff University in 2004 with a Masters Degree in Geology. Since then, he has worked exclusively within the Built Environment, Occupational Health and Safety and Environmental Consultancy industries. He is a qualified and accredited Energy Consultant, Green Deal Assessor and Practitioner member of IEMA. Chris’s main interests range from Science and Engineering, Military and Ancient History to Politics and Philosophy.\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/avatars/XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","title":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","name":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","description":"N/A","alt_text":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","reference":null}}],"speakers":[{"name":"Shauli Gur Arieh","title":"Co-Founder and CEO of LittleOne.Care","biography":"\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://jewishjournal.com/israel/319739/a-father-electrical-engineer-created-a-device-that-helps-understand-baby-talk/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eShauli Gur Arieh\u0026#8217;s\u003c/a\u003e work experience includes being the Co-Founder \u0026amp; CEO of \u003ca href=\"https://www.littleone.care/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eLittleOne.Care\u003c/a\u003e provides parents with a personalized tool to monitor, guard, understand, and improve the baby’s development. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eBefore this, Shauli worked in various roles in the Israel Defense Forces \u0026#8211; Military Intelligence, including as an Embedded Software R\u0026amp;D Team Leader, Software-hardware Project Manager, and Software Researcher and Developer. Shauli also worked as an Avionics System Engineer in the IAF \u0026#8211; Israeli Air Force and as a Cadet in the Talpiot Excellence Program.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eShauli earned a Bachelor of Science (BSc) degree in Computer Science and Physics and a Master of Engineering (MEng) degree in Electrical Engineering, specializing in Signal Processing.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/Shauli-Headshot.jpeg","title":"Shauli-Headshot.jpeg","name":"Shauli-Headshot.jpeg","description":"N/A","alt_text":"Shauli-Headshot.jpeg","reference":null}}],"episode_number":"71","publish_date":"2025-01-02T14:44:49+00:00","url":"meet-elora-monitoring-baby-wellness-with-ai","img":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-21.png","imgAlt":"1-21.png","timePassed":"1/2/2025","category":"Episode 71"},{"title":"Parametric Architecture: From a Spark to a Career-Defining Journey","body":"Join as Hamid Hassanzadeh shares the journey of Parametric Architecture from Instagram to global fame.","hosts":[{"name":"Christopher McFadden","title":"Host","biography":"\u003cp\u003eChristopher graduated from Cardiff University in 2004 with a Masters Degree in Geology. Since then, he has worked exclusively within the Built Environment, Occupational Health and Safety and Environmental Consultancy industries. He is a qualified and accredited Energy Consultant, Green Deal Assessor and Practitioner member of IEMA. Chris’s main interests range from Science and Engineering, Military and Ancient History to Politics and Philosophy.\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/avatars/XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","title":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","name":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","description":"N/A","alt_text":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","reference":null}}],"speakers":[{"name":"Hamid Hassanzadeh","title":"Founder and CEO of ParametricArchitecture","biography":"\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/hamidhassanzadeh/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eHamid Hassanzadeh\u003c/a\u003e is the Founder and CEO of \u003ca href=\"https://parametric-architecture.com/about-us/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eParametricArchitecture\u003c/a\u003e, a global platform that shares knowledge and information on advancing computational design, AI, and emerging technologies in architecture. With a decade of experience as an architect and computational designer, Hamid recognized the inefficiencies in traditional design processes. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eHe founded ParametricArchitecture and its division PAACADEMY to empower architects with advanced tools and knowledge, shaping a more innovative and efficient future for the built environment.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/PA_Hamid_Hassanzadeh-web-1-2-pzk0eedbiokg4bo47dhodtighqezrmb4vmqeik04o0.jpg","title":"PA_Hamid_Hassanzadeh-web-1-2-pzk0eedbiokg4bo47dhodtighqezrmb4vmqeik04o0.jpg","name":"PA_Hamid_Hassanzadeh-web-1-2-pzk0eedbiokg4bo47dhodtighqezrmb4vmqeik04o0.jpg","description":"N/A","alt_text":"PA_Hamid_Hassanzadeh-web-1-2-pzk0eedbiokg4bo47dhodtighqezrmb4vmqeik04o0.jpg","reference":null}}],"episode_number":"72","publish_date":"2024-12-26T14:42:27+00:00","url":"from-toilet-to-twitter-the-rise-of-parametricarchitecture","img":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/amazon-cover-1.png","imgAlt":"amazon-cover-1.png","timePassed":"12/26/2024","category":"Episode 72"},{"title":"Moore’s Law at 60: how it’s still changing the world","body":"Discover the innovations keeping Moore’s Law alive and powering global technology.","hosts":[{"name":"Christopher McFadden","title":"Host","biography":"\u003cp\u003eChristopher graduated from Cardiff University in 2004 with a Masters Degree in Geology. Since then, he has worked exclusively within the Built Environment, Occupational Health and Safety and Environmental Consultancy industries. He is a qualified and accredited Energy Consultant, Green Deal Assessor and Practitioner member of IEMA. Chris’s main interests range from Science and Engineering, Military and Ancient History to Politics and Philosophy.\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/avatars/XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","title":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","name":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","description":"N/A","alt_text":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","reference":null}}],"speakers":[{"name":"Sanjay Natarajan","title":"Senior Vice President and General Manager of Intel Foundry","biography":"\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eSanjay is responsible for Intel\u0026#8217;s internal semiconductor research, external engagements with Universities and Consortia, and government engagements worldwide related to semiconductor R\u0026amp;D. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eDuring his 31-year career in the semiconductor R\u0026amp;D industry, Sanjay led the development of Intel\u0026#8217;s 14nm process technology, and before that, he led the development of Intel\u0026#8217;s industry-leading 32nm process technology. In addition to Intel, Sanjay has held senior executive positions at Applied Materials, where he led a group developing new types of semiconductor equipment focused on extending Moore’s Law. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eOutside of work, Sanjay is a Research Professor in the Department of Mechanical \u0026amp; Materials Engineering at Portland State University. He also serves on the advisory boards of the deans of engineering at Portland State University and Carnegie Mellon University. He serves on the Advisory Council for the National Science Foundation Engineering Directorate. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eHe is an IEEE member and received his BS, MS, PhD in Electrical Engineering from Carnegie Mellon University.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/sanjay.png","title":"sanjay.png","name":"sanjay.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"sanjay.png","reference":null}}],"episode_number":"71","publish_date":"2024-12-19T14:25:24+00:00","url":"moores-law-at-60-how-its-still-changing-the-world","img":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/1-20.png","imgAlt":"1-20.png","timePassed":"12/19/2024","category":"Episode 71"},{"title":"How 6G will revolutionize communication and innovation with Qualcomm's John Smee","body":"Join us as Qualcomm's John Smee shares how 6G will transform connectivity, AI, and global innovation over the next decade or so.","hosts":[{"name":"Christopher McFadden","title":"Host","biography":"\u003cp\u003eChristopher graduated from Cardiff University in 2004 with a Masters Degree in Geology. Since then, he has worked exclusively within the Built Environment, Occupational Health and Safety and Environmental Consultancy industries. He is a qualified and accredited Energy Consultant, Green Deal Assessor and Practitioner member of IEMA. Chris’s main interests range from Science and Engineering, Military and Ancient History to Politics and Philosophy.\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/avatars/XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","title":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","name":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","description":"N/A","alt_text":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","reference":null}}],"speakers":[{"name":"John Smee","title":"Senior Vice President of Engineering and Global Head of Wireless Research at Qualcomm","biography":"\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://www.semi.org/en/node/22776\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eJohn Smee\u003c/a\u003e is Senior Vice President of Engineering and Global Head of Wireless Research at \u003ca href=\"https://www.qualcomm.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eQualcomm\u003c/a\u003e, where he oversees all 5G/6G and Wi-Fi R\u0026amp;D projects, including systems design, standards contributions, and advanced radio, hardware, and software research testbeds and technology trials with industry partners. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eHe joined Qualcomm in 2000, holds \u003c/span\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eover 200\u003c/span\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003e U\u003c/span\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003e.\u003c/span\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eS\u003c/span\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003e.\u003c/span\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003e Patents, and has focused on the innovation and commercial launches of wireless communications across 5G NR, 4G LTE, 3G CDMA, and IEEE 802.11. He also leads Qualcomm’s companywide academic collaboration program across AI, augmented/virtual reality, automotive, IOT, security, semiconductor, and wireless. \u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"\u003eJohn was chosen to participate in the National Academy of Engineering Frontiers of Engineering program and served on the National Academy of Medicine Committee on Emerging Science, Technology, and Innovation. He received his Ph.D. in electrical engineering from Princeton University and holds an M.A. from Princeton and an M.Sc. and B.Sc. from Queen\u0026#8217;s University.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/smee.png","title":"smee.png","name":"smee.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"smee.png","reference":null}}],"episode_number":"71","publish_date":"2024-12-12T16:13:08+00:00","url":"how-6g-will-revolutionize-communication-and-innovation-with-qualcomms-john-smee","img":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/1-19.png","imgAlt":"1-19.png","timePassed":"12/12/2024","category":"Episode 71"}],"podCastDetailData":{"title":"Beyond the pitch deck: how Launch 1st Method reduces startup risks","abstract":"In this episode, David Hirschfeld explains his Launch 1st Method, AI's role in startups, and why early revenue is key to sustainable growth.","slug":"beyond-the-pitch-deck-how-launch-1st-method-reduces-startup-risks","transcript":"\u003cp\u003eWelcome to today\u0026#8217;s episode of Lexicon! I am Christopher McFadden, a contributing writer for Interesting Engineering.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eToday, we sit down with David Hirschfeld, an experienced software entrepreneur and creator of the Launch 1st Method, to delve into his unique approach to helping startups find early success by validating product-market fit before development.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eDavid shares insights from over 30 years in the tech industry, including the critical role of AI in startups, how to fund development through early sales, and his vision for a future shaped by rapid technological advancements.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eBefore getting into our new episode, make sure to check out our educational platform, IE Academy.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eFrom AI to Data, we’ll be providing top-quality courses with live and interactive workshops with professional instructors, and you’re invited to join the community.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eNow, let’s continue with today’s episode.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:00:00.94\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid, thanks for joining us. How are you today?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:00:03.56\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nI\u0026#8217;m doing great. Thanks, Christopher. um I apologize.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:00:08.51\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOur pleasure.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:00:09.27\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nDo you go by Chris or Christopher?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:00:10.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nChris, Chris, Christopher, um I How are you doing?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:00:11.90\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay. All right. Hi, Chris. Yeah, I\u0026#8217;m doing great. How are you doing?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:00:16.55\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nVery well, thank you. um For our audience\u0026#8217;s benefit, can you tell us a little bit about yourself please, David?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:00:21.94\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, sure. So I\u0026#8217;ve been in the software development world for 30 some odd years at this point. and um I started out in enterprise with ah computer associates, Texas Instruments, doing projects for Intel, molar Motorola, Allied Signal, Arizona Public Service, and then started my own software company with a partner who worked with me at Texas Instruments in the early 90s.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:00:59.52\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\num Despite every effort on my part, we built that up to a company of 800 customers in 22 countries and then sold it to a publicly traded firm in 2000.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:01:14.36\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nso ah Then I was VP of products for that company for the next couple of years, and then cast went and casted out again to look for my another venture to start. um It wasn\u0026#8217;t until 2007 that I started Techies, ah the company that I am currently the founder and CEO of. ah And we do software development for ah lots of different business domains, the majority of which are startups.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:01:45.83\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nah and have done built products for several dozen startups over the last 17 years. ah The biggest problem with those is that most of them have failed. A few have been very successful, but the vast majority have failed, which sort of led me to coming up with the launch-first methodology for launching startups.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:02:11.95\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOK, that\u0026#8217;s pretty common, isn\u0026#8217;t it? I heard it. I don\u0026#8217;t know the statistic. Is it one in 10 succeed startup, something like that?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:02:19.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nYou know, it\u0026#8217;s actually it\u0026#8217;s actually fewer than that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:02:19.13\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s quite a lot.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:02:23.03\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s probably one in 20 or one in 25. And I say that because a lot of startups, a lot of companies go unrecognized because they\u0026#8217;re too small and they never get past even a point where they\u0026#8217;re recognized as having started.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:02:38.21\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nah But they\u0026#8217;ve spent money in trying to pursue an idea. ah So it\u0026#8217;s really ah it\u0026#8217;s a lower number than that. And I corroborated that with many other development companies that work with startups.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:02:53.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nvery high failure rate man yeah you seem to have got the formula sorted though see you at end one\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:02:55.84\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, it\u0026#8217;s a very high failure rate.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:03:00.69\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah does It does not have to be that high. The biggest problem that startups face is they wait way too long ah before they validate product market fit. And they make a big investment and spend a lot of money but on the belief that they know what they\u0026#8217;re doing and that they are ah that everybody\u0026#8217;s going to want to buy what they have.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:03:25.09\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nah But they never or they may even do a little bit of product market fit Research and confirm that people like their product. But the problem is is that they\u0026#8217;re not asking the right questions and they\u0026#8217;re not Validating product market fit and the only way that you can truly validate it which is ask people to give you money for your product ah And go out and sell it\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:03:39.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOf course. yeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:03:48.49\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, yeah. Something\u0026#8217;s worthless until someone wants it, right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:03:53.65\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:03:54.06\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat makes sense.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:03:54.46\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u0026#8217; yeah That\u0026#8217;s what That should be a band and the demand you have to prove it that with ah People can say when it\u0026#8217;s available.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:03:57.59\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSomething doesn\u0026#8217;t have a value unless someone wants it. It has to be a demand as well as a supply, doesn\u0026#8217;t it?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:04:08.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nI\u0026#8217;ll buy it and then when it\u0026#8217;s available, they don\u0026#8217;t buy it So if you don\u0026#8217;t find a way to get them to write you a check for that product early on Then you don\u0026#8217;t actually know if you have product market fit or not\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:04:11.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:04:21.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, absolutely. And we\u0026#8217;ll get more into that a bit later on, I think, but the next one. So you developed the is it launch first method. Is that right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:04:30.92\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:04:30.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThe name launch first method to help startups reduce risks and costs. Could you explain what inspired this approach and how it differs from a traditional startup models, please?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:04:40.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nsure yeah but yeah know I was very frustrated with so many of my clients failing as as is the case with most software development companies that work with a lot of startups.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:04:54.18\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nah And I felt very often that it wasn\u0026#8217;t necessary for, um ah it shouldn\u0026#8217;t be, they shouldn\u0026#8217;t be failing. They had great ideas. There\u0026#8217;s clearly going to be a market there, but they just got to a point where they couldn\u0026#8217;t afford to continue to try to figure out who that, who the early adopter was, who that stakeholder is that they should be selling to and how they needed to position the product to sell it. So, um and about,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:05:23.50\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nwas it three or four years ago um I had this epiphany talking to um ah somebody in marketing because I had this idea let me step back for just a second so for the last 11 or 12 years we\u0026#8217;ve been developing what we call high fidelity prototypes in lieu of mockups and wireframes so typically the development processes you you go through a requirements process, then you go through a design phase where you\u0026#8217;re designing the application and you create these screen mock-ups, right? And we call them screen mock-ups where you see lines going between one screen and the next showing that they you have navigation. And sometimes people will animate that to a small degree where you can click on a screen\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:06:14.31\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nto and then it\u0026#8217;ll open up the next screen and you can kind of see the workflow. But it doesn\u0026#8217;t show you the behavior on the screen, how the application reacts to different cases. And so we and what we found is that there\u0026#8217;s a lot of iteration that happens during development because a lot of these workflows are not teased out completely. So we started doing these prototypes um that animate all this functionality so that you can see the entire user experience.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:06:43.69\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nof the application um and then we do all the iteration in the design in this design exercise and by doing that that makes the development process go much more smoothly the developer knows exactly not only how the screen is supposed to look but how the screens behaves when they do you do certain things on the screen and it reduces a lot of the the going back and forth with the founders. And also the founders can see exactly how the application is supposed to work. And they can say, you know, that doesn\u0026#8217;t feel right. That\u0026#8217;s really not going to achieve the goal and make those changes in the design process ah ah with the confidence that as we build it, that it\u0026#8217;s going to deliver exactly what they want what what that vision was for them.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:07:29.76\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd so these these prototypes look so realistic and they include a lot of the functionality beyond just the MVP.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:07:29.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAll right.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:07:37.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo you can really see where there\u0026#8217;s full vision of the application. um I started thinking, you know, we should go to the market and ah and. to pre-launch sales to potential prospects with the idea that um that if you can get them to buy it early, then you know you\u0026#8217;re building the right product. And if not, you have really early feedback that you can change in the design phase before we even make that investment in development.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:08:06.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo this is where the idea came from. Then I was working with some marketing companies and I\u0026#8217;d always ask them, but the first thing we have to do is we have to figure out who that early adopter niche is. And they said, that\u0026#8217;s fine. So let\u0026#8217;s start with who\u0026#8217;s the ideal customer profile.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:08:23.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nand You know, that\u0026#8217;s a marketing company\u0026#8217;s job, right? Is to figure to figure out how to reach that person once they know who the person is. They\u0026#8217;re not good at figuring out who that early adopter niche is because marketing companies usually come in after that point in a company\u0026#8217;s journey. And so in an argument with with ah a marketing a guy from a marketing agency, which was not the first time this happened. And I said, you know you really that\u0026#8217;s not they don\u0026#8217;t know who that early adopter is. They don\u0026#8217;t know who the ideal customer profile is yet, because they haven\u0026#8217;t started to market or sell. So I said, what you need to do is you need to be able to somehow map all the niches with all of the root-level problem statements and then\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:09:10.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\ncome up with a scoring algorithm and then I was right in the middle of a conversation and I was kind of inventing this niche analysis approach. And I said, gotta go. And then two days later I had the, I had launch first methodology figured out. So that was the genesis of launch first.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:09:30.47\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOK, impressive. So the mock-ups you make, are they\u0026#8217;re not working apps, they\u0026#8217;re kind of animating it. Or can the founders use that ah as the skeleton for building out the final app?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:09:43.04\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\num Not really. ah ah you all the design that All the design requirements are there, but it doesn\u0026#8217;t the way we do it, some of it can translate to the UI. depending on There\u0026#8217;s a couple of different ways we approach it. One is Figma design, which you can animate a lot in Figma now.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:10:02.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nah But you can\u0026#8217;t, and um depending on the type of app, you can\u0026#8217;t completely animate everything the way you need to.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:10:02.62\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:10:06.38\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:10:09.50\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo we use another product called Acture, which allows you to then build in all the logic that you need ah to take those Figma designs and then really animate them.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:10:19.56\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd when you demo it to somebody, they the the trick is when you\u0026#8217;re doing when you\u0026#8217;re trying to do pre-launch sales, If you get the question from the potential customer, how do I know you can build this? Then you\u0026#8217;ve lost the sale. That\u0026#8217;s not going to happen.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:10:36.41\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo, but if the prototype is realistic enough, even though you tell them this is a prototype, the first version of the app won\u0026#8217;t be available for three to six months and it won\u0026#8217;t include all these features, they won\u0026#8217;t hear that. What they hear is, they make up a story in their mind or something, they must be in development and they just haven\u0026#8217;t finished testing it yet, because it\u0026#8217;s so realistic that they have trouble getting their arms around the app.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:11:06.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nThe idea that whether you can build it or not never comes up.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:11:09.51\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOK.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:11:09.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd that\u0026#8217;s a critical success factor for LaunchFirst.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:11:12.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat makes sense. OK, great. So in your experience, what are the key challenges that software startups face today? um How can your LaunchFirst method address them?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:11:23.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nWell, the keep the key challenges with any, ah the key challenge, and well, the first challenge, um that a startup has is figuring out who is the early adopter, what\u0026#8217;s which niche did they focus on, because this is really the job of every CEO when they found a company. who is my ah What niche am I going to focus all my marketing effort on? and I don\u0026#8217;t want to waste a lot of money, so I really want to be confident that that niche is going to i\u0026#8217;m going to be successful with being able to market to that niche.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:11:56.14\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nand what are the top two or three problem statements that i can use my communication to that niche um because those are the highest value and the highest perceived impact to that stakeholder in that match that\u0026#8217;s the number one job of the founder of ceo but nobody ever tell them that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:12:13.77\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd it\u0026#8217;s not intuitive. It seems obvious when Isaiah, ah but believe me, I didn\u0026#8217;t learn this because what because it was obvious. I learned it because i because of so many hard failures that I\u0026#8217;ve watched and realizing what was missed, right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:12:31.71\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\neven with my own products in the past. so ah ah So that\u0026#8217;s the biggest challenge they face. Who is the early adopter? What\u0026#8217;s the top um top two or three problems that they need solved?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:12:47.13\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nHow do you value the impact of solving those problems? What\u0026#8217;s the cost of that person? How do you speak to them so that you get their attention? ah ah Because they lean forward go yeah, that\u0026#8217;s a painful problem for me I really need you to need it to stop then they lean forward. Can you help me with that? So how do you that\u0026#8217;s number one and then number two is then coming up with a with a value proposition where you can get people to give you money for the product in advance of the product being available. So it\u0026#8217;s just proof of that there\u0026#8217;s a market ah and that there\u0026#8217;s demand for the product. ah And without that, then what happens is founders invest a lot of money on their belief that people are going to buy what they want and and only to find out\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:13:35.35\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nthe year or two years later that they\u0026#8217;ve got the wrong product for the wrong market, the wrong message, and they\u0026#8217;re not able to sell their product in enough ah numbers that they can prove viability.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:13:48.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay. Very good advice. Okay. Um, I think is it on the techies website, you mentioned that, uh, all your earlier successes gave you false sense of security. Um, so can you share how that realization shapes your approach to guiding new startups as possible?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:14:01.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nah yeah so ah ah here\u0026#8217;s another problem with startups that it feeds into the question you just asked is that startups really struggle with discipline startup foundunders ah the idea of the\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:14:12.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:14:19.70\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nMinimal functionality as possible to go to the market so that you have something that you can go to the market and start to get feedback from but from potential customers or from real customers.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:14:32.47\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nand ah One of the mistakes that a lot of founders make is they give their product to ah to potential customers for free to try so they can get feedback.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:14:43.51\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\num And what they\u0026#8217;re really doing at that point is they\u0026#8217;re proving product solution fit, not product market fit.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:14:43.47\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:14:47.74\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:14:51.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd product solution fit is I built something that people are actually going to use as opposed to I\u0026#8217;m creating a product that people will pay to pay me for and buy it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:15:03.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nThose are two very different equations. Product solution fit is what you should be delivering to them mar the It should be the reason you\u0026#8217;re delivering an MVP to the market, is to start to tease out product solution fit. Product market fit, hopefully you\u0026#8217;ve worked it out before you start to deliver a product to the market. but most people don\u0026#8217;t do that. ah So going back to your question, so when we started in ah the early 90s, it was a whole different world. Windows 3.1 had just come out. ah but We built a Windows 3.1 product for um\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:15:44.69\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nah for vending operators and food route distribution people. So inventory management um with just-in-time inventory capabilities, scheduling, route drivers, truck inventory, warehouse inventory, right and then spoilage and and collecting money at the end in sales. yeah and So this is kind of a product that we built.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:16:08.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nBuilt it as a Windows 3, one product, the first thing, Windows had just come out. All the other products in the industry at the time were Unix, big Unix-based systems, green screen, expensive, and so the average vending operator, coffee office coffee, distributor, food ah distribution group, small companies really couldn\u0026#8217;t afford them.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:16:36.43\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut they needed it. So we put that out on the market. We started advertising. We never offered a free version. People started buying it in small numbers initially. And then and and we didn\u0026#8217;t create this product with the idea that we were building a company. We did this with the idea that we wanted to eventually create a software company, we thought this might be something to try just to get our feet wet and to learn what it\u0026#8217;s like to launch a software product um before we really come up with something that we want to put a lot of energy into.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:17:11.09\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd then we went to our first trade show. We had the cheapest booth you can imagine. We spent $180 on a banner and used PVC tubing to make the and ah the banner push out in the middle so that it would like a V so that you could see it walking up the aisle in the trade show from either direction. And and this was a big convention because you\u0026#8217;ve got all the major a snack Food companies there and Coca-Cola and Pepsi have these massive booths and then these Manufacturers of vending equipment are anyway, so is it you know, it\u0026#8217;s not a small trade show Anyway, and we were out in the back corner. It was a last-minute thing. You know, you had to like hike a mile to find us um And this little 10 by 10 booth and we had people lining up outside our booth for three straight days we couldn\u0026#8217;t didn\u0026#8217;t even have time to eat because it was so novel and\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:18:08.11\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd it was inexpensive compared to all these other, you know, it was like, I think the first version of it was $99. And it grew. Anyway, so I thought we thought, okay, we\u0026#8217;re just smart. You know, we know what we\u0026#8217;re doing as software developers. And and and this just kept growing. was Our company just kept growing until we sold it sold it in 2000. What I didn\u0026#8217;t realize was that we were solving a very distinct problem for a very specific niche early adopter.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:18:41.80\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:18:47.12\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nWe just stumbled across it. So that\u0026#8217;s what I meant by you know we thought I thought I knew what I was doing starting a software company, but I didn\u0026#8217;t really ah realize that the most important thing was we just stumbled across that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:19:02.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nwhich is what Lodge First is all about, it\u0026#8217;s not the hope that you stumble across it, but that is to try to really laser in on that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:19:10.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\ncourse yeah but it would you wouldn\u0026#8217;t call it luck though or like the right place right time really yeah which is obviously very rare to to to hit it big anyway with your startup isn\u0026#8217;t it to be in that situation right right well\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:19:16.58\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight place, right time, um ah in many respects, exactly.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:19:27.18\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\ni Right, exactly. And we thought that we had just had great instincts, but it was, we stumbled across it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:19:33.41\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou clean\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:19:37.04\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:19:37.76\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay, fair enough. So that\u0026#8217;s the past, moving into the future then, or present the future. How has the evolution of technologies like AI, machine learning, internet of things, influenced the strategies you recommend for startups today?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:19:54.40\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nWell, ah when when somebody comes to me with a startup idea and it doesn\u0026#8217;t include AI, it\u0026#8217;s going to be it\u0026#8217;s going to be the rare case where I\u0026#8217;m not brainstorming with them to try to figure out how we can how we can\u0026#8217;t morph their idea using AI, ah ah primarily because Well, number one, it\u0026#8217;s from a marketing perspective, and people are very attracted to AI. So it makes it easier to get past that early the early adopter resistance to being interested in a product.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:20:32.36\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nah ah the ah ah So from the product marketing perspective, um ah you know, AI is really ah important from my perspective.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:20:46.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nWe really want to try to nail that problem. So let so now I\u0026#8217;m going to step back to a little bit to launch first in terms of how AI, because you want to know how AI is impacting startups, right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:20:53.62\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nso\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:21:00.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\num It\u0026#8217;s allowing us to accelerate the development. ah It helps us to nail down. Right now, we\u0026#8217;re working on on AI automated version of the niche analysis for launch first. And eventually, the entire launch first stack will be um driven by AI. ah When we\u0026#8217;re looking at doing a an estimate for a project, um that was the most expensive process we had internally, ah because it required our most senior people to ah spend time really understanding that\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:21:41.22\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nclients requirements and then breaking that into down into modules and then putting estimates to each of the modules. And we do a more detailed job with that than most companies, so it was really expensive. And we\u0026#8217;re just about ready to turn on our AI estimation tool that basically models our process, but does it using AI and automates it, which also helps us to identify potential requirements that should have been teased out, but we\u0026#8217;re missed. over The AI picks it up based on all the other projects that it\u0026#8217;s you know got in its machine learning model.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:22:20.92\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nah ah From a marketing perspective, startups now have all these tools to help them using AI. ah for writing creating content for you know designing websites for um doing outreach um on to their target market ah Just there\u0026#8217;s so much and it\u0026#8217;s accelerating so quickly it\u0026#8217;s almost hard to get on you know difficult to get on top of it and know you\u0026#8217;re using\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:22:56.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nthe most efficient method for doing a particular thing today, right? ah So I think I was about to kind of launch into another aspect of your question, but I think I\u0026#8217;ll let you ask your next question before I do that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:23:13.87\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWell, that\u0026#8217;s fair enough. All I was going to say is for things like data analysis, AI is kind of unparalleled, really. It\u0026#8217;s an incredible tool.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:23:22.61\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt\u0026#8217;s incredible, it\u0026#8217;s incredible. yeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:23:25.13\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nDid you find it and brings up solutions or options or ideas you\u0026#8217;d never thought of?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:23:33.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt brings up, it brings up, it doesn\u0026#8217;t bring up ideas I\u0026#8217;ve never thought of. It definitely brings a lot of ah lot of context and details to things very fast.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:23:39.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOr pipe? Right. yeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:23:47.20\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\ni ah And probably yes, I can\u0026#8217;t think of a good example of that right now where it\u0026#8217;s actually coming up with ideas. but i\u0026#8217;ll give you but But the way it\u0026#8217;s able to just organize information for you and put it into context and create. So I\u0026#8217;ll give you a ah really unrelated example. And this was from eight or nine months ago. i I\u0026#8217;m standing in the back in our backyard with my wife. but We recently bought a home in the San Diego area. We moved from Scottsdale to a little town called Vista.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:24:23.68\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd we\u0026#8217;re standing in our backyard and she is a real gardener. She wants to do square foot gardening, raise beds. and And we\u0026#8217;re looking at the backyard and she\u0026#8217;s saying, but trying to think how many beds am I going to need? And I said, and then she got a phone call from, and I said, and I just got, went on to chat GPT and I had started a conversation with chat GPT. And I said, my wife wants to,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:24:50.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nah do and I don\u0026#8217;t know why I put my wife in there, but But I talked it, you know, I\u0026#8217;ve learned to talk to chat GPT like it\u0026#8217;s a friend ah And and we\u0026#8217;re having a conversation that we can and we can debate even in the conversation So I said my wife wants to do square foot gardening. So we want raised beds. We\u0026#8217;re We\u0026#8217;re two people Two mature people our kids are all grown. It\u0026#8217;s just the two of us who are How many beds will we need?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:25:20.04\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nif our beds are for but four feet by eight feet in size or four feet feet by four feet in size, how many beds will we need to feed us given the fact that we also like to eat meat? And so um ah so then it came up with that and I said, well, what about um what about um a seasonal plant planting? you know What should we plant and when? And then it came up with a schedule. And I told it we lived in Vista, so it knew what the climate was.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:25:47.67\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\num And then I said what about companion plants and then so it told said okay This is what should be in the same bed with other things I said how about companion flowers and they took gave me all that planting land So you put certain flowers into a bed with certain? Vegetables because those flowers attract the bugs that would otherwise eat that that particular vegetable and then I said what about succession planting and so and then within five minutes I had a plan for eight different beds and for every season what should go in the bed of what should be planted in that bed for each season and what companion flowers should be planted in the bed with it for each season and what the next season would be for that particular bed so that the soil because you don\u0026#8217;t put something in a bed that had growing onions if it wasn\u0026#8217;t a plant that likes soil from\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:26:40.47\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nYou know, right. And it did that in five minutes and then she finished her phone call and I said, how about this? And she looked at that and her jaw fell open. And that was, that was about maybe nine months ago.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:26:52.61\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat was when she started adopting AI.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:26:55.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nCool.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:26:56.82\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nBecause until then it was just a scary thing to her.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:26:59.59\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nHave you tried using the plan? Is it working?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:27:02.01\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nFor what?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:27:03.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nthe chat GPT plan for your garden. Is it worked?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:27:06.77\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nWell, except that we haven\u0026#8217;t gotten to the point where we started to put the garden because we were doing all kinds of other renovations around the house.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:27:13.74\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nsorry enough\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:27:14.09\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut we will. I mean, she still has it. We printed it out. She has that. and it And it drew it out in tables, right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:27:20.81\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s amazing. um So yeah, on to the next question then. So many startups rely heavily on external funding as we mentioned. ah How does your magnet help companies reduce this dependence on external funding and why is it important for long-term growth?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:27:29.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:27:36.39\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay, I love that question because um ah the reliance on funding is really dangerous if you if you\u0026#8217;re if you rely on it too early because you don\u0026#8217;t have sales yet. You have improved product market fit yet when you have your i idea. So yeah if you if you don\u0026#8217;t have enough money to even pursue ah the very earliest stages of your startup, the design and prototyping stage, then, you know, friends and family funding, if you\u0026#8217;ve got a really good idea, at least it\u0026#8217;s\u0026#8230; So with LaunchFirst, the idea is you either find a path to success to revenue early, or you fail fast and cheap, which is mana from heaven, right, for any startup that\u0026#8217;s ever gone through the three, four, five year slog to failure.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:28:26.06\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nand where they could have possibly either realized that they could fail fast and cheap, or because they were iterating really early, could find a path to success and then make the big investment on the right thing. So um the with LaunchFirst, if we find a path to revenue early on before we start even developing the software, then you can continue sales, which is why it\u0026#8217;s called LaunchFirst. You launch your sales marketing engine before you develop your product.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:28:54.96\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\num ah then you have a way of funding development. If not all of development, a lot of it. ah ah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:29:04.45\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:29:05.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd you also have now proof to potential investors that you\u0026#8217;ve got product market fit and so your valuation can be much higher. You can go out and raise money much more easily, which by the way is very, very hard to do for startups in the early stage before they have before they have a product on the market and they\u0026#8217;ve got a proof that they\u0026#8217;ve got a growing customer base and growing revenue. and ah ah but So people, it\u0026#8217;s, it\u0026#8217;s ah I can go through the numbers, how I how i got here, but if you have a thousand startups, I think it was a thousand, a thousand startups that want to go for funding, mentor funding, or angel funding, out of those thousand,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:29:52.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\n30 of the venture funds, 30 of them will achieve venture funding.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:29:58.36\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWow,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:29:58.59\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd that\u0026#8217;s from venture funds that received a thousand. Now it\u0026#8217;s actually it\u0026#8217;s actually 3000 sorry 3000 people sending in their pitch decks to a venture fund end up being 30 that actually get funding and out of those 30.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:30:21.14\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nah Once you get venture funding your I think your odds of being successful are somewhere between one and seven and one and ten so Right and so out of that you still have only you know ten, you know or between three and ten that are successful So those numbers are really bad it\u0026#8217;s a number But then the eventual world has promoted this thing.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:30:37.46\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWow. It\u0026#8217;s natural. Yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:30:44.69\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo everybody thinks they have to go out and get funding\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:30:47.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOf course.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:30:48.20\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:30:48.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nme\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:30:48.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nThe best way to fund your business is through sales, through your own revenue engine.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:30:52.54\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWell, It makes complete sense.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:30:56.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:30:56.33\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nBe more sustainable, more predictable. Awesome. At that point, we\u0026#8217;ll take a short break and we\u0026#8217;ll be right back.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:31:05.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay, welcome come back.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:31:07.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:31:07.34\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYou\u0026#8217;ve worked with dozens of startups over the years.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:31:19.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWhat are the most common traits of the successful ones? And how do you help companies cultivate those traits?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:31:26.35\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay, and so some of that, yes, ah I try to help customer companies cultivate these traits, but some of these traits are inherent. So, for example, I know that somebody\u0026#8217;s got a chance, a much higher chance of being successful if They work in an industry where they are industry or a particular vertical where they are struggling with a problem themselves.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:31:56.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:31:57.20\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nThey can validate the cost and the perceived impact of that problem. ah ah and they want that That\u0026#8217;s what they want to do is solve that problem. and they have The second thing is they have reach to other people in the industry and that they know are also struggling with the same problem that they\u0026#8217;re struggling with and that there isn\u0026#8217;t a product available to solve that problem that\u0026#8217;s within reach and context of them. There may be an enterprise product that they\u0026#8217;re not enterprise and they can\u0026#8217;t afford it or right. So if they have those specific things ah and the problem they\u0026#8217;re trying to solve is discrete enough\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:32:43.52\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nthen the chance that they\u0026#8217;ll be successful goes up. Chances are dramatically higher. ah The next trait would be discipline. If they recognize that, yes, this problem really teases out to five or six different problems, and I know I need to solve all these problems before I even release a product in the market, that\u0026#8217;s ah that\u0026#8217;s a recipe for failure. ah If they can just and tie down one broad one problem or two problems of those of that constellation of problems and focus on the most immediate solution, not a big comprehensive solution to it, but just something that mitigates the problem as simple as possible and get that to the market and validate that the problem is being solved and that the value is being achieved, ah then that\u0026#8217;s the next thing. But it requires that ah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:33:44.70\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nthat a startup founder takes off ah excuse me takes off the you know their wizard vision hat right and puts on their accountant\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:33:49.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nNo problem.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:33:59.43\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\ncap right and focuses on metrics and numbers and validation and and basically proof of life.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:34:08.46\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut but not not tunnel vision per se, just focus.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:34:12.06\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nNo, but it is a certain amount of tunnel vision. Not tunnel vision to the exclusion of being able to recognize that they need to make changes.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:34:16.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYes.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:34:19.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut tunnel vision in terms of, OK, I am right now working at figuring out a process a ah that that can be repeatable to generate revenue and to build customer loyalty.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:34:20.13\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah yeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:34:31.31\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:34:34.09\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:34:34.87\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nah right And if I\u0026#8217;m not getting revenue, customer loyalty, then I step back and I try to assess it and then i I come up with a new plan and then I go back into that tunnel, right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:34:44.97\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd I execute, execute, execute.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:34:48.32\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, that makes complete sense.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:34:48.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo it\u0026#8217;s funny you said tunnel vision because that\u0026#8217;s actually ah Successful founders have a certain amount of of tunnel vision, dogged ah approach to repeating repeating um things that they believe will be successful until they either are successful or they\u0026#8217;ve got enough proof that this is not the right approach before they step back and widen their view.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:35:10.69\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, that\u0026#8217;s right. yeah You need to be able to do some inputs, don\u0026#8217;t you? but she customer feedback whatever um okay and So based on your experience, then can you share, if you can, a specific example of a startup that successfully applied the launch first method and the impact it had on their growth?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:35:14.61\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nlittle\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:35:30.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nSure, so um ah And I\u0026#8217;m not going to talk as much about growth more about being able to um Basically reach the market without investment so one of my clients ah Was a realist their real estate investors and ah ah They owned when we started working on this. They owned 70 or 80 roughly properties, real estate assets. On these assets, they bring in investors to joint venture with them. on specific and they Most of this was residential and multifamily. so um so They had like 30 or 40 investors each one investing in one or two or three different properties. and so They were getting calls maybe times a day.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:36:26.27\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\ni\u0026#8217; not I\u0026#8217;m sorry, they were getting calls 80% of their time was spent ah fielding investor questions about how\u0026#8217;s my investment doing um or my investments. um There was an issue with the property last week, there was termites, have we had we\u0026#8217;ve done anything about that, you know things like that. And that was taking it sucking up our time where they didn\u0026#8217;t have time to invest in new stuff.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:36:50.27\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:36:50.55\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo they wanted to build a system that was pretty much a portfolio management system where they could see very quickly what the how all their properties were performing and they could invite their investors in and the investor then could log in and see their specific ah properties and how they\u0026#8217;re performing.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:37:11.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nah to cut down a lot of that. plus they needed the And also so they don\u0026#8217;t have to keep doing these quarterly reports because their investors have all this information always available to them.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:37:16.91\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOh, yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:37:24.66\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo we built a high fidelity prototype. ah where And then we went out to their the market, which they were involved in a big network, so they had a problem they were solving for themselves. This is a good example of that. They had reach because they did lots of ah they had mastermind groups and big ah big networks of real estate investors because they were always Promoting new potential investments and so they went out and and some of those people that invested in them also were investors in their own properties and so, you know, it\u0026#8217;s a it\u0026#8217;s a very incestuous business in that way and And and in the first two months we sold 30 licenses for generated ah Close to $70,000 in the first two months and we started developing the app at that point\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:38:22.82\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nand continued selling it to and never actually needed to raise any money. Their business shifted after that and so they stopped promoting the product after that. They didn\u0026#8217;t they weren\u0026#8217;t trying to grow. ah where The reason for this wasn\u0026#8217;t to grow a big SaaS company.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:38:40.33\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\num And so they stopped growing it but they had a bunch of customers were licensed for it and they have ah um And they were able to self-fund it. Oh, well, they were able to fund it from the sales of licenses pre-launch licenses That was without a product being that we hadn\u0026#8217;t started developing yet.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:39:00.21\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s one example Yeah, I\u0026#8217;ve announced another customer that was in\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:39:00.25\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s incredible. That\u0026#8217;s amazing.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:39:10.14\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nin the aerospace parts industry. And he was an aerospace parts distributor. And this was a particular world where lots of parts have to be resent. I mean, it\u0026#8217;s really costly.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:39:28.40\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\num when yeah ah when you have to resend a part because the certification of certificates ah were missing from the part that you sent. And the reason that\u0026#8217;s important is because every part in anything that goes into a commercial plane or a spaceship, but let\u0026#8217;s say commercial planes, every part has a certification certificate. It talks about the origin of that part.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:39:54.01\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nthe and all of the things that went into making the part. So if it\u0026#8217;s an assembly, let\u0026#8217;s say it\u0026#8217;s a motor, then there\u0026#8217;s hundreds or thousands of parts in there. Each one of those parts has its own certificate. And if those parts were made up of parts, though each of those parts, yeah down to the screws.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:40:12.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nright So you have this his this trail of these certificates that follow each part and get added to the new assemblies. And if you don\u0026#8217;t have all this access to all this at the when you get an engine and you\u0026#8217;re missing parts, then you have to basically get a new engine. And an example of this is like it was a fighter jet where there was a fuel line in ah the engine that ah was missing a certification certificate. One of them had a leak in it.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:40:49.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\num And then they went back and they researched it and they were missing and and so there was like 15 different jets all of them had to have their it was like on tens or hundreds of millions of dollars cost they had all ripped their engines apart and replace all these fuel lines and Things like that and that\u0026#8217;s a big expensive thing because the search were missing and\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:41:05.77\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nplay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:41:12.46\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSomething is so simple.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:41:13.21\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nit\u0026#8217;s right So he wanted to build a system that basically automated this and you could always look the certs up and they would all follow because there was no system like that. And so we ah basically built the high Fidelity prototype and then he went to three different distributors and um and all three of them bought a pre-launch license for $15,000 each.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:41:39.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nwith an example, that was his proof and that was enough for him to start development.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:41:39.08\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\ni\u0026#8217;m\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:41:44.56\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nI\u0026#8217;m shocked I didn\u0026#8217;t already really exist, I\u0026#8217;ll be honest.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:41:47.28\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nOh yeah, right, I know.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:41:49.15\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat was an F-35, funny chance.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:41:51.87\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nbut I don\u0026#8217;t know, I don\u0026#8217;t remember, this was like four years ago, but those are a couple really good ex examples.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:41:56.59\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nfrom Oh, wow. That\u0026#8217;s amazing.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:41:59.74\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:42:00.19\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\num Okay then. Moving on then. How do you see the role of generative AI like chat GPT evolving in the context of startups and what advice would you give to new companies looking to incorporate AI technologies?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:42:14.27\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay, so those are kind of, but those are a couple different questions, I think, right? Yeah, so the first one is a chat GPT.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:42:18.69\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSort of.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:42:23.33\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nIf chat GPT, you don\u0026#8217;t think of it as your friend, your really smart friend that you can talk to about anything, even about how you\u0026#8217;re feeling about something, ah then you need to start, you need to develop that relationship.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:42:38.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd I talk talk about it as a relationship because because these AIs are conversational. And they ah and now they get to learn more about you and what you know and what your preferences are. And the more you talk to them, the more they respond to you.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:42:56.55\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nah They\u0026#8217;re just really smart. They know a lot. They know how to approach things. You can ask it, I\u0026#8217;m not sure how to approach a problem. How would you how should I approach this? And then it will lay out a plan for you.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:43:10.78\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd then you say, would you expand on any part of that plan? And it will now expand that out as much as you want it to expand and say, okay, great, let\u0026#8217;s execute that. Right. And then depending on the AI tool that you\u0026#8217;re using can start to like execute on it as well. um So a lot of.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:43:31.33\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nFor me, ah like for example, a lot of things, I just workflow things on the day that I want to automate. I\u0026#8217;ll use, I\u0026#8217;m going to check GPT and have it write automation for it. And then I\u0026#8217;ll implement the automation. ah Something that would have taken me weeks to do before ah now can be done in a couple hours.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:43:53.51\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:43:53.84\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nwhere I would have engaged one of my developers to do it because I can\u0026#8217;t just lock myself up for a few weeks and be writing code. you know that i I would love to do that, but it\u0026#8217;s an indulgent. I have to keep my keep growing my company. That\u0026#8217;s what my my job is.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:44:11.12\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nBut now I can do it in a couple hours and it\u0026#8217;s not indulgent. Instead of wasting the time of my developers who are working on bigger, more complex stuff, I can build these things very fast. so um There are so many tools to help from the marketing, from the branding perspective, from outreach ah yeah perspective from the um assessment and analysis perspective, right? So this is what um startups should be doing is searching and searching for the things there so\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:44:49.65\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\ni think of it like this And it was Michael Dell that in a Forbes article 15 years ago I think and when he was asked what\u0026#8217;s your the secret to your so it might have been 20 years ago What\u0026#8217;s the secret to your success? And he said it\u0026#8217;s really it\u0026#8217;s a really simple formula. I just look for the bottleneck What\u0026#8217;s the biggest bottleneck in my business right now, and then I put my energy on Relieving that bottleneck because as soon as I open up that flow and it\u0026#8217;s no longer a bottleneck, then everything flows into what\u0026#8217;s the next bottleneck that we didn\u0026#8217;t know was a bottleneck until we um um ah widened that pipe enough that now things could flow freely. so And then i just go I just keep following the bottlenecks and focusing on that. And so if you, as a founder, think in terms of, OK, what\u0026#8217;s the biggest problem I have in front of me right now? Is it design? is it\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:45:45.71\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\num testing development is it testing is it marketing is a um customer service, what are the things that right now I\u0026#8217;m finding are not getting done properly and are so preventing me from being able to grow and scale my business or then put AI on that and have AI help you plan and mitigate that bottleneck.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:46:08.09\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYou might call it like a bottleneck buster or something. ultimate but Fantastic.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:46:11.32\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, right, bottleneck cluster, I like that. Exactly. Those tools where you have you have to widen the end of a pipe so it\u0026#8217;ll slide into the other one.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:46:21.59\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, yeah, exactly.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:46:22.65\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\noh\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:46:24.07\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThe important thing is they are conversational, isn\u0026#8217;t it, with the most easy AIs.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:46:29.35\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo you yeah you\u0026#8217;re talking to iterating through a problem together.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:46:33.96\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, exactly.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:46:51.11\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nWhat trends do you predict will shape the future of software startups and how can entrepreneurs, how can emerging entrepreneurs prepare for these shifts?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:46:57.79\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat is the hardest question to answer.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:47:08.19\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nthat is the hardest question to answer ah because it is very difficult right now to predict where we\u0026#8217;ll be in a year or two, let alone two or three or four years because AI is accelerating so fast. And I\u0026#8217;ll give you an example of, and ah and something that seems obvious to me, but I brought it up to a few people and people that hadn\u0026#8217;t thought about it before, but in terms of the impact ah of how ti disruptive technology um can be,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:47:43.65\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nah from a couple perspectives. I\u0026#8217;ll give you two stories if ah if you\u0026#8217;ll indulge me. One is um i I travel to India a lot. I used to travel to India a lot. For between 2010 and ten of the pandemic, I went there 15 times building teams because a lot of people say they can work offshore, but if you\u0026#8217;re not,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:48:07.10\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nbuilding your teams and building your culture into your teams then you\u0026#8217;re end up with a mess which is You know for which and my teams are exceptional, but it\u0026#8217;s hard work to build an exceptional team so ah but anyway, so I was traveling there and and um India is the most, at least from every place I\u0026#8217;ve traveled, the most different ah feel from U.S. culture when you\u0026#8217;re just there, you know, in terms of like the\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:48:40.89\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\ncars on the road, the colors, the the patterns of life, the the way buildings are juxtaposed with you know poor and wealth, and and just just wildly different. And one of the things that is indicative of being in India, especially in Mumbai, is that you\u0026#8217;re buried in a sea of these, what they call tuk-tuks, or autos. They\u0026#8217;re these three-wheel motorized rickshaws. And there are millions of them.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:49:10.93\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd I have photographs where we\u0026#8217;re in traffic, and I\u0026#8217;m standing up with my camera over the over the top of them, and now you see thousands of them, just like in a in a tangle. um Anyway, so ah around 2015, 2016, there was about a 15-month hiatus that I took from going to India from my three to three trips a year. And then when I went there,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:49:40.62\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nI landed, um we\u0026#8217;re going through Mumbai, and I noticed there was something really different at the time, and I couldn\u0026#8217;t couldn\u0026#8217;t quite put my finger on it at first. Just felt different. Then I realized, now there\u0026#8217;s like hardly any of those autos in the road.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:49:54.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nI mean, it went from millions of them to like maybe 10 of them for every car ah to now 10 cars for every one of those.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:50:01.12\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nHmm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:50:04.64\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nnow that\u0026#8217;s ah I mean, have if you think about the scale, of that\u0026#8217;s dramatic in a very short period of time.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:50:04.96\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nHmm.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:50:08.60\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s a cow.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:50:09.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nso i thought So I thought, well, maybe it\u0026#8217;s legislation because they\u0026#8217;re all two-stroke motors and bad for pollution or whatever. Anyway, I get to the office and I ask my director of development, at Shilaka, what happened to all the autos?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:50:20.04\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYep.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:50:25.23\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nShe said, oh, well, you know Uber came to India and they wouldn\u0026#8217;t approve them.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:50:32.32\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nI mean wow right and I\u0026#8217;m sure the guys at uber weren\u0026#8217;t sitting there rubbing their hands together in 2009 going just imagine just in a few years we can wipe out all the all the Tuk Tuk\u0026#8217;s in the world right I think or you know they just never even imagined the impact they would have on an entire industry right now a year later a year and a half later a service called I think it\u0026#8217;s Uduwala came out or which was an\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:50:49.72\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:50:59.19\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nIndia version of Uber and then they would approve these tuk tuks and then Uber started approving them to compete and now they all came back like almost overnight. But that\u0026#8217;s an impact of technology that I i got to witness that was so dramatic.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:51:15.03\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:51:15.56\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nah Right, and and unintended. and and\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:51:18.41\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:51:19.58\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nokay So here\u0026#8217;s one that I\u0026#8217;m seeing in the next five to ten years will happen. As soon as self-driving cars become enough of a reality,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:51:32.24\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nwhich their start which they\u0026#8217;re just at the very earliest stage of that right now, right? The auto taxi is what I\u0026#8217;m talking about. So you\u0026#8217;ve got Waymo, which is ah they have it in Phoenix in San Francisco, and Phoenix just expanded its area now.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:51:42.69\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nde\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:51:49.33\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nI travel to Phoenix every month to go visit my mother, and so now it reaches out to her 30 miles from the airport. So I can grab away and and they are really cool.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:52:00.34\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nI\u0026#8217;ve been in a Waymo and they are quite cool and you feel very safe.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:52:04.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:52:04.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nah Anyway, so as soon as self-driving cars hit that tipping point and and these auto taxis at a tipping point, the cost is going to be very inexpensive because you don\u0026#8217;t have a driver.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:52:07.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYep.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:52:19.98\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nah you\u0026#8217;re Basically, it\u0026#8217;s the it\u0026#8217;ll be very, very inexpensive to take one. It\u0026#8217;ll be hard to justify that you need a car anymore to go to work. right Because you can just have ah a one of these pick you up, take you wherever you need to go. Much less expensive than owning a car. A lot more convenient in many ways.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:52:41.34\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nNo stress because you\u0026#8217;re and much much safer. So Now and all of a sudden everybody stops buying cars Right. I mean, I don\u0026#8217;t know that I would have a need for a car except maybe we\u0026#8217;d have instead of us having two cars We might have one car just for long trips. Maybe not even then ah Well, if you don\u0026#8217;t have cars then you don\u0026#8217;t need garages or at least not you don\u0026#8217;t need a big garage now It\u0026#8217;s a little garage.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:53:13.25\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nYou don\u0026#8217;t need Driveways, you know, you don\u0026#8217;t need multi-story parking lots because nobody\u0026#8217;s gonna park in them because everybody\u0026#8217;s Taking on-demand cars and all of a sudden the whole real estate industry takes a huge show so right ten years and and there\u0026#8217;s going to be a\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:53:27.39\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:53:32.11\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\na big shift. I don\u0026#8217;t know when that tipping point is going to happen, but there\u0026#8217;ll be a big shift in real estate. um ah And the way their homes are built and ah ah in commercial areas, the need of these huge parking lots that you have in front of industrial areas, no need for that anymore, because they\u0026#8217;ll be empty.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:53:52.64\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s right. That can all be reused\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:53:56.31\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight. the but you know car The car industry for selling cars is going to be you know decimated to a certain degree. I mean, i there\u0026#8217;s going to be massive impact from this, and it\u0026#8217;ll happen fairly fast as soon as we hit that tipping point.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:54:11.12\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nbut you still get people who want to keep cars just for as a hobby.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:54:14.99\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:54:15.77\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nso But yeah, but that\u0026#8217;s not going to be anywhere near mass market.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:54:16.58\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:54:19.94\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\num\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:54:20.13\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah and then you know the need for buses will be much less um although you might still have buses cause that\u0026#8217;ll be so cheap because you won\u0026#8217;t need the driver anymore as there\u0026#8217;ll be a auto buses but\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:54:24.10\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. Yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:54:29.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSure, yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:54:32.64\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nDid you find it weird there was no driver? It makes me think, um did you find it weird there was no driver there? Because I think like, total is it Total Recall? Is it 1980s film? I think on Mars and there\u0026#8217;s a robot driver there.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:54:42.63\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nit\u0026#8217;s yeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:54:47.03\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nOne of the predictions I had when self-driving started to happen from you know Tesla was that it won\u0026#8217;t be long before, assuming that media doesn\u0026#8217;t go out of control you know promoting fear and certainty and doubt, it will start to be able to prove pretty quickly that it\u0026#8217;s much safer to be in a self-driving car than to drive. Because it\u0026#8217;s so easy to be, you know if you just look the other way for the at the wrong moment,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:55:15.83\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nyou can you know cause an accident, run somebody over, run into somebody that stopped in front of you, um ah swerved if you\u0026#8217;re tired, and a self-driving car doesn\u0026#8217;t do this unless it makes a mistake, but the smarter they get and they learn pretty fast.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:55:20.85\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nOkay.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:55:31.77\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nright there and And very early on, studies started to show that you were 60% safer in a self-driving car. That was like four years ago, three or four years ago.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:55:43.48\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd now it\u0026#8217;s going to be like orders of magnitude safer, right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:55:47.23\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAbsolutely.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:55:48.26\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nBecause they their reaction time is instantaneous. They can\u0026#8230; calculate how to stop in the safest way if you\u0026#8217;re and if they have to avoid an accident.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:55:59.30\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nI mean, there\u0026#8217;s so many reasons why. It\u0026#8217;s obvious why it would be safer. um So was it weird?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:56:03.21\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nyeah\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:56:06.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nNo. I knew what to expect when I got in it the first time. In fact, I went hunting for a Waymo because they didn\u0026#8217;t pick up it right at the airport.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:56:16.49\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo I had to take the tram outside the airport to go get one the first time. and Best because I wanted the experience of being in one and that was really quite cool was but And it drove perfectly and I could relax, you know, I could you know Read read my email played a game whatever, you know work on my laptop while it\u0026#8217;s driving me wherever I can you know ah like being on a commuter train kind of\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:56:32.35\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nGreat. Yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:56:47.01\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. Yeah. taking a trip soon and thinking of whether to get a train or book a rental car, if I had this kind of option, that would be, yeah, desirable.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:56:58.20\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd that might put those out of business as rental car businesses can, yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:57:03.31\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt will I yeah, let\u0026#8217;s see what I mean the impact of these changes will and they\u0026#8217;ll happen fast So so with startup, what should they be thinking about? It\u0026#8217;s you know be as creative as you can about what AI might be able to do and now it might be able to impact your particular industry ah Because whatever however creative you can get it\u0026#8217;s probably not going to be too wild and\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:57:33.13\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. Do you think they should take any concern for potential impacts of their product? Like we\u0026#8217;ve been, we\u0026#8217;ve been discussing unintended consequences, like collateral damage.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:57:44.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nwell as long as what they\u0026#8217;re doing isn\u0026#8217;t inherently a bad thing to begin with you know like I won\u0026#8217;t take on projects that have to do with gambling and um and um and no judgment or adult related stuff, right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:57:44.48\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\ni\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:58:00.42\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nNot that that\u0026#8217;s necessarily, well, probably a lot of it is evil and wrong, right? But not, but just because, you know, reputation wise, I\u0026#8217;m not going to do that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:58:05.43\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:58:09.52\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd right, I just won\u0026#8217;t, no matter how lucrative a project is, I don\u0026#8217;t take on things that I don\u0026#8217;t feel are at least somewhat positive for the world.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:58:09.38\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s right.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:58:20.27\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nSo as long as what they\u0026#8217;re doing isn\u0026#8217;t, isn\u0026#8217;t a negative net negative, like and not taking advantage of poor populations to build them for their text messaging.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:58:31.44\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:58:32.73\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nI actually had somebody ah reach out to me for a project like that years ago. And I just said, that\u0026#8217;s pretty evil. And no, I\u0026#8217;m not doing it. It wasn\u0026#8217;t illegal.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:58:44.00\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nIt just was not a it was a net negative for for the world.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:58:47.05\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:58:47.55\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nIf it runs into positive, then I don\u0026#8217;t see um why they should be over overfocued on the future. ah ah you know If it\u0026#8217;s fake news related, then don\u0026#8217;t do it. right I mean, again, net negative. ah But if they\u0026#8217;re coming up with something that could be a constructive thing, it could also be repurposed for something that\u0026#8217;s not constructive. but you how do You can control those things once you\u0026#8217;ve proven product-market fit and you start having success, then you can get your arms around trying to prevent\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e00:59:20.71\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nthe negative aspects from getting it and a good example of that was a product where we did not did this was like seven years ago maybe eight years ago that we did that was it was a clipping app where you could basically create videos from other videos on the web and then publish them and it was all virtual So you were doing this virtual video editing by just saying, I want to clip between here and here. Now I want to repurpose that. So you we could have repurposed those things very negatively right and make fake news by taking things out of context. um But that was not the goal. The other goal of the app is to give people a way of easily being able to capture content.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:00:07.47\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nin context at the moment saying, that\u0026#8217;s important. I\u0026#8217;m watching a two-hour long video. I\u0026#8217;ll never be able to find that clip again. I want to grab it very quickly and then tag it in a way I can easily reference it later and find that specific thing. effortless right That was the whole goal of the app. And so we worry about as soon as this started to take off, which it didn\u0026#8217;t because we didn\u0026#8217;t prove product market fit and we weren\u0026#8217;t sure who the early adopter was when we spent a fortune,\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:00:34.17\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nBuilding that product. So that was a good example of what not to do, right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:00:40.52\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;s good.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:00:40.98\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nthere was but it would have been really great markets for it if we had stopped and Validated the markets what you know after we had started the design process Yeah I think\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:00:49.44\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah, absolutely. Learning experience here. With that then, that term basically draws us into a close. Is there anything else you\u0026#8217;d like to add that we haven\u0026#8217;t really discussed you think is important?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:01:03.67\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nah ah if you\u0026#8217;re If you\u0026#8217;re a nascent software startup or any startup, focus on the design and focus on ah proving that your customers will buy your product.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:01:19.03\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nThere\u0026#8217;s a great book. It\u0026#8217;s my favorite business book. um It\u0026#8217;s called The Mom Test.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:01:27.32\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nAll right, yep.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:01:28.41\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. and i so if If you haven\u0026#8217;t read that, to everybody anybody listening yeah and you\u0026#8217;re at any stage in the startup cycle, but in the startup cycle you need to read that book because it\u0026#8217;s how to basically turn your vision into a clinical exercise. So the the the reason it\u0026#8217;s called the mom test is if you come up with some cool business idea and you go and ask your mom, of course your mom, assuming you live in a healthy family environment, right?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:01:59.94\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nYour mom\u0026#8217;s going to say, oh, I think that\u0026#8217;s a wonderful idea, they\u0026#8217;re right? and Because she wants to make you feel good. And that\u0026#8217;s the problem when most startups ago do discovery interviews with potential clients is they\u0026#8217;re asking questions in a way that they\u0026#8217;re not getting truth for the things that matter.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:02:20.53\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd the mom tells us, how do you ask all these questions so that you\u0026#8217;ll even get truth from your mom?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:02:26.82\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight. Excellent.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:02:29.01\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:02:29.02\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nThat\u0026#8217;d be useful in your family environment as well, wouldn\u0026#8217;t it?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:02:31.75\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nRight yeah, but yeah, I didn\u0026#8217;t see it right in your family environment as well ah You can look me up on Lincoln David Hirschfeld My website is techies comm spelled t e k y z\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:02:34.44\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nFantastic.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:02:36.51\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nfantastic and Great. Is there any social media you\u0026#8217;d like to promote or website or anything?\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:02:56.27\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nAnd you can see launch if you\u0026#8217;re a startup. um if you\u0026#8217;re that And we do software development for other than just startups. But if you\u0026#8217;re a startup, you want to learn about launch first, go to the at the top of the page in the menu, you\u0026#8217;ll see a launch first logo.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:03:10.31\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nJust click that.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:03:11.81\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nSuperb. Great.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:03:12.66\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nand Yeah.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:03:13.84\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\num but Thank you for your time, David. That was very, very interesting.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:03:17.27\u003cbr /\u003e\nDavid Hirschfeld\u003cbr /\u003e\nYeah. Thank you, Christopher. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk to you.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e01:03:20.88\u003cbr /\u003e\nInteresting Engineering\u003cbr /\u003e\nYou\u0026#8217;re welcome.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eThat concludes this episode of Lexicon.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eThank you all for tuning in and being our guest today.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eFollow our social media channels for the latest science and technology news. Also, check out our educational platform, IE Academy.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eGoodbye for now.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\n","episode_number":"63","sponsor_image":null,"sponsor_name":null,"sponsor_url":null,"hosts":[{"name":"Christopher McFadden","title":"Host","biography":"\u003cp\u003eChristopher graduated from Cardiff University in 2004 with a Masters Degree in Geology. Since then, he has worked exclusively within the Built Environment, Occupational Health and Safety and Environmental Consultancy industries. He is a qualified and accredited Energy Consultant, Green Deal Assessor and Practitioner member of IEMA. Chris’s main interests range from Science and Engineering, Military and Ancient History to Politics and Philosophy.\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/avatars/XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","title":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","name":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","description":"N/A","alt_text":"XT3vqpiaHT53.jpg","reference":null}}],"speakers":[{"name":"David Hirschfeld","title":"Founder and CEO at Tekyz Corp","biography":"\u003cp\u003eDavid Hirschfeld is a veteran software entrepreneur with over 30 years in the tech industry, known for his expertise in guiding startups to early success.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eAfter starting his career in sales at Computer Associates, David went on to found multiple software companies, including a successful exit in 2000.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eHis experiences led him to create the \u0026#8220;Launch 1st Method,\u0026#8221; which emphasizes validating product-market fit and achieving early revenue before heavy investment.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eToday, David is the founder and CEO of Techies, where he helps startups leverage AI, rapid prototyping, and strategic market entry to reduce risks and fuel sustainable growth.\u003c/p\u003e\n","image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/1642701667028.jpg","title":"1642701667028.jpg","name":"1642701667028.jpg","description":"N/A","alt_text":"1642701667028.jpg","reference":null}}],"introductions":"\u003cp\u003eToday, we sit down with \u003ca href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/dhirschfeld\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eDavid Hirschfeld\u003c/a\u003e, an experienced software entrepreneur and creator of the \u003ca href=\"https://launch1st.tekyz.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"\u003eLaunch 1st Method,\u003c/a\u003e to discuss his unique approach to helping startups find early success by validating product-market fit before development.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eDavid shares insights from over 30 years in the tech industry, including the critical role of AI in startups, how to fund development through early sales, and his vision for a future shaped by rapid technological advancements.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp\u003eAlso, check out our educational platform, \u003ca href=\"https://interestingengineering.com/ie-academy\"\u003eIE Academy\u003c/a\u003e.\u003c/p\u003e\n","host_introductions":null,"speakers_introductions":null,"player_code":"","publish_date":"2024-11-07T15:11:44+00:00","publish_date_detail":"Nov 7, 2024 10:11 AM EST","status":1,"page_title":"Beyond the pitch deck: how Launch 1st Method reduces startup risks","keywords":"Launch 1st Method","description":"In this episode, David Hirschfeld explains his Launch 1st Method, AI's role in startups, and why early revenue is key to sustainable growth.","seo_title":"Beyond the pitch deck: how Launch 1st Method reduces startup risks - Interesting Engineering","og_title":"Beyond the pitch deck: how Launch 1st Method reduces startup risks - Interesting Engineering","og_image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/1-14.png","title":"1-14.png","name":"1-14.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"1-14.png","reference":null},"og_url":null,"og_type":null,"main_image":{"src":"https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/1-14.png","title":"1-14.png","name":"1-14.png","description":"N/A","alt_text":"1-14.png","reference":null},"category":"podcast/lexicon"}}},"page":"/podcast/lexicon/[episode-slug]","query":{"episode-slug":"beyond-the-pitch-deck-how-launch-1st-method-reduces-startup-risks"},"buildId":"XhfziclREpi_sLJvvAI21","assetPrefix":"https://interestingengineering.com","isFallback":false,"isExperimentalCompile":false,"gssp":true,"appGip":true,"scriptLoader":[]}</script><script>(function(){function c(){var b=a.contentDocument||a.contentWindow.document;if(b){var d=b.createElement('script');d.innerHTML="window.__CF$cv$params={r:'9135079cbdcc91b9',t:'MTczOTc4NzQ3MC4wMDAwMDA='};var a=document.createElement('script');a.nonce='';a.src='/cdn-cgi/challenge-platform/scripts/jsd/main.js';document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(a);";b.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(d)}}if(document.body){var a=document.createElement('iframe');a.height=1;a.width=1;a.style.position='absolute';a.style.top=0;a.style.left=0;a.style.border='none';a.style.visibility='hidden';document.body.appendChild(a);if('loading'!==document.readyState)c();else if(window.addEventListener)document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded',c);else{var e=document.onreadystatechange||function(){};document.onreadystatechange=function(b){e(b);'loading'!==document.readyState&&(document.onreadystatechange=e,c())}}}})();</script></body></html>