Russian ballistic missile attack on Ukraine portends new era of warfare | Page 20

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2:29 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 790995" data-quote="purecarrot" data-source="post: 43331280" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/civis/goto/post?id=43331280" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-43331280">purecarrot said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> Since 1991 Russia annexed some Ukrainian territories. That's it (though, technically all the regions joined Russia after referendums). There are a few other territories/sudo independent states (Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic) that asked Russia to let them join but Russia refused.<br /> <br /> Any talk (in Germany) about closing US bases is pointless. They are not really an independent state. They will do what US tell them to do. All European states (except for Russia and Belarus) are in the same boat. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>If my enemy had an entire continent minus two countries as a vassal state, I’d be a lot less inclined to piss them off, but you do you.</div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <div class="uix_reactionBarWrapper"> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <a class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--menuTrigger" data-xf-click="menu" title="More options" role="button" tabindex="0" aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="true">•••</a> <div class="menu" data-menu="menu" aria-hidden="true" data-menu-builder="actionBarNew"> <div class="menu-content"> <h4 class="menu-header">More options</h4> <div class="js-menuBuilderTarget"></div> <a href="/civis/posts/43331286/report" class="menu-linkRow" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay">Report</a> <a 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lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-43331298" data-lb-caption-desc="AusPeter · Nov 24, 2024 at 2:44 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 790995" data-quote="purecarrot" data-source="post: 43331280" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/civis/goto/post?id=43331280" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-43331280">purecarrot said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> <b>Since 1991 Russia annexed some Ukrainian territories. That's it (though, technically all the regions joined Russia after referendums). </b>There are a few other territories/sudo independent states (Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic) that asked Russia to let them join but Russia refused.<br /> <br /> Any talk (in Germany) about closing US bases is pointless. They are not really an independent state. They will do what US tell them to do. All European states (except for Russia and Belarus) are in the same boat. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>So were those referendums held before or after the regions were annexed? And before or after the regions were purged of people who might object?<br /> <br /> As the self proclaimed Russian "expert" you should be able to point to a factually correct link, that is non-biased, and non-Russian based , right?</div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <div class="uix_reactionBarWrapper"> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <a class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--menuTrigger" data-xf-click="menu" title="More options" role="button" tabindex="0" aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="true">•••</a> <div class="menu" data-menu="menu" aria-hidden="true" data-menu-builder="actionBarNew"> <div class="menu-content"> <h4 class="menu-header">More options</h4> <div class="js-menuBuilderTarget"></div> <a href="/civis/posts/43331298/report" class="menu-linkRow" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay">Report</a> <a href="/civis/posts/43331298/bookmark" class="bookmarkLink bookmarkLink--highlightable menu-linkRow " title="Bookmark" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay" data-label=".js-bookmarkText" rel="nofollow" data-sk-bookmarked="addClass:is-bookmarked, Edit bookmark" data-sk-bookmarkremoved="removeClass:is-bookmarked, Add bookmark"><span class="js-bookmarkText u-srOnly">Add bookmark</span></a> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331298" class="menu-linkRow" data-href="/civis/posts/43331298/share" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="overlay">Share</a> </div> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-actionBar actionBar"> <div class="actionBar-set actionBar-set--external"> <span class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--vote"> <div class="contentVote js-contentVote 1 " data-xf-init="content-vote" data-content-id="post-43331298"> <a href="javascript:" class="contentVote-vote is-disabled contentVote-vote--up " data-vote="up"><span class="u-srOnly">Upvote</span></a> <span class="contentVote-scores"> <div class="ars_voteScore"> <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--total is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--total" data-score="23">23</span> (<span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--positive is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--positive" data-score="23">23</span> / <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--negative js-voteCount js-voteCount--negative" data-score="0">0</span>) </div> </span> </div> </span> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/add-reply?post_id=43331298" class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--reply" title="Reply, quoting this message" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay" data-cache="false">Quote</a> </div> <div class="actionBar-set actionBar-set--internal"> <a href="/civis/posts/43331298/report" class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--report" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay">Report</a> </div> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> <section class="message-responses js-messageResponses"> <div class="js-replyNewMessageContainer"></div> </section> </footer> </div> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--vote"> <div class="message-column"> <div class="contentVote js-contentVote 1 " data-xf-init="content-vote" data-content-id="post-43331298"> <a href="javascript:" class="contentVote-vote is-disabled contentVote-vote--up " data-vote="up"><span class="u-srOnly">Upvote</span></a> <span class="contentVote-scores"> <div class="ars_voteScore"> <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--total is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--total" data-score="23">23</span> (<span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--positive is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--positive" data-score="23">23</span> / <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--negative js-voteCount js-voteCount--negative" data-score="0">0</span>) </div> </span> </div> </div> </div> </div> </article> <article class="message message--post js-post arsPvs--neutral js-inlineModContainer " data-author="traumadog" data-content="post-43331312" id="js-post-43331312"> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-43331312"></span> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" class="message-user userExtra--expand"> <div class="message-avatar "> <div class="message-avatar-wrapper"> <a href="/civis/members/traumadog.403803/" class="avatar avatar--s avatar--default avatar--default--dynamic" data-user-id="403803" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" style="background-color: #9c27b0; 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Germany? All of Europe? Your solution of "give the threatening party with nukes everything" makes the problem far worse. Putin will not stop with Ukraine and all your recommendation does is bring nukes to the table more often as a strategy - and actually makes said nuclear holocaust more likely over time. If it works here with Trump, guess what will happen between China and Taiwan? Maybe give up South Korea too because the North Sabre rattles a bit? The middle east? You open a door that cannot be closed, one that means instead of the risk of nuclear war in one theater, now it's in 4 or 5 powder kegs.<br /> If you want less nuclear risk, then stopping Putin in Ukraine actually provides that. Not appeasement. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>Remember, the concept of "NovoRossiya" that Putin follows means that areas that were formerly Russian/Soviet should be again.<br /> <br /> And arguably, that includes Alaska.<br /> <br /> But you know, the US should absolutely retreat from Alaska because Putin has nukes.<br /> <br /> <img class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" alt="🙄" title="Face with rolling eyes :rolling_eyes:" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/6.6/png/unicode/64/1f644.png" data-shortname=":rolling_eyes:" /></div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <div class="uix_reactionBarWrapper"> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <a class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--menuTrigger" data-xf-click="menu" title="More options" role="button" tabindex="0" aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="true">•••</a> <div 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class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/civis/goto/post?id=43327484" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-43327484">ManixT said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> What an absolute scumbag. Decides he can steal a country, murder its populous, conscript militias from around the world, transfer military and nuclear technology to North Korea in exchange for weapons and now NK troops, constantly threatening the world with nukes, and then he wants to blame this war on the west? He is a rabid dog that needs to be put down. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>Not even nukes- Putin gave NK a bunch of zoo animals in exchange for those troops: <a href="https://apnews.com/article/russia-north-korea-pyongyang-zoo-putin-aeec989bcfa735ad477e5d0903686fdb" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">https://apnews.com/article/russia-north-korea-pyongyang-zoo-putin-aeec989bcfa735ad477e5d0903686fdb</a></div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <div class="uix_reactionBarWrapper"> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <a class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--menuTrigger" data-xf-click="menu" title="More options" role="button" tabindex="0" aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="true">•••</a> <div class="menu" data-menu="menu" aria-hidden="true" data-menu-builder="actionBarNew"> <div 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<div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-43331325" data-lb-caption-desc="traumadog · Nov 24, 2024 at 3:02 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 790995" data-quote="purecarrot" data-source="post: 43330693" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/civis/goto/post?id=43330693" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-43330693">purecarrot said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> Not all people here are idiots. I am helping those who want to know the facts to learn something they normally won't learn from the propaganda they are fed to. It's difficult for Americans who do not know Russian/Ukrainian to follow the news from both sides and all news feeds are full of propaganda. Only cross referencing information from many sources one can get a resemblance of the real picture. For example, most Americans believe that the Russians are drafted to this war (hence a naive hope for a "revolution" against Putin in some posts in this discussion). The reality is that only volunteers (and professional Army) are fignting on the Russian side whereas in Ukraine they have brutal conscription going on. Men are grabbed on the streets, beaten, packed into buses and sent to front (Ukrainians call this "bussification"). Telegram channels are full of the videos of the bussification process. Some of these videos get to reddit. Here is one <a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/s/XaolWxa0uE" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">example</a>. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>Funny, but if Ukraine was using such widespread "forced conscription" of soldiers, you would think that there would be mass desertions from Ukranian lines to escape the war, no?<br /> <br /> And why isn't Russian media itself highlighting all of those potential defectors who were rounded up by that "Evil Ukranian Dictatorship"?</div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <div class="uix_reactionBarWrapper"> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <a class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--menuTrigger" data-xf-click="menu" title="More options" role="button" tabindex="0" aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="true">•••</a> <div class="menu" 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class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-43331322">purecarrot said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> All referendums were held before annexation. You are confusing occupation with annexation. Also, Russia does not "purge" anyone. Everyone can stay (but not everyone does). Interestingly, in today's news: <a href="https://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2024/11/24/7486131/" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">MP: 150 thousand IDPs returned to occupied territories, 70 thousand to Mariupol.</a> That's people returning from Ukraine. Also, don't forget that a lot of people (maybe most) from these regions actually fled to Russia. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>Referendum was held <i>before</i> annexation, but the population is returning <i>now</i>?<br /> <br /> Clearly, the vote wasn't as straightforward as you think it was.</div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <div class="uix_reactionBarWrapper"> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <a class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--menuTrigger" data-xf-click="menu" title="More options" role="button" tabindex="0" aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="true">•••</a> <div class="menu" data-menu="menu" aria-hidden="true" data-menu-builder="actionBarNew"> <div class="menu-content"> <h4 class="menu-header">More options</h4> <div class="js-menuBuilderTarget"></div> <a href="/civis/posts/43331327/report" class="menu-linkRow" 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<div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" class="message-user userExtra--expand"> <div class="message-avatar "> <div class="message-avatar-wrapper"> <a href="/civis/members/unshavenyak.292557/" class="avatar avatar--s avatar--default avatar--default--dynamic" data-user-id="292557" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" style="background-color: #d4e157; color: #f4ff81"> <span class="avatar-u292557-s" role="img" aria-label="unshavenyak">U</span> </a> </div> </div> <div class="uix_messagePostBitWrapper"> <div class="message-userDetails"> <h4 class="message-name"><a href="/civis/members/unshavenyak.292557/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="292557" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" itemprop="name">unshavenyak</a></h4> <h5 class="userTitle message-userTitle" dir="auto" itemprop="jobTitle">Ars Scholae Palatinae</h5> </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt> <span data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Apr 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</a> <li> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331338" rel="nofollow"> #770 </a> </li> </div> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list"> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main uix_messageContent js-quickEditTarget"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331338" rel="nofollow"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-11-24T15:10:33-0500" data-time="1732479033" data-date-string="Nov 24, 2024" data-time-string="3:10 PM" title="Nov 24, 2024 at 3:10 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Nov 24, 2024</time> </a> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <a 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<article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 501263" data-quote="Celery Man" data-source="post: 43331286" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/civis/goto/post?id=43331286" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-43331286">Celery Man said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> If my enemy had an entire continent minus two countries as a vassal state, I’d be a lot less inclined to piss them off, but you do you. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>Do what the US tells them to do. Largely refuses to join the US with their war adventures in Afghanistan and Iraq, and had a pro-Russian economic policy until Russia went full retard. Suuuuuure. Man Russian propagandists pick the shittiest forums to try to operate in.<br /> <br /> Note: this is not directed at you, Celery Man, but the Russian asset who you replied to.</div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <div class="uix_reactionBarWrapper"> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <a class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--menuTrigger" data-xf-click="menu" title="More options" role="button" tabindex="0" aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="true">•••</a> <div class="menu" data-menu="menu" aria-hidden="true" data-menu-builder="actionBarNew"> <div class="menu-content"> <h4 class="menu-header">More options</h4> <div class="js-menuBuilderTarget"></div> <a href="/civis/posts/43331338/report" class="menu-linkRow" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay">Report</a> <a href="/civis/posts/43331338/bookmark" class="bookmarkLink bookmarkLink--highlightable menu-linkRow " title="Bookmark" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay" data-label=".js-bookmarkText" rel="nofollow" data-sk-bookmarked="addClass:is-bookmarked, Edit bookmark" data-sk-bookmarkremoved="removeClass:is-bookmarked, Add bookmark"><span class="js-bookmarkText u-srOnly">Add bookmark</span></a> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331338" class="menu-linkRow" data-href="/civis/posts/43331338/share" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="overlay">Share</a> </div> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-actionBar actionBar"> <div class="actionBar-set actionBar-set--external"> <span class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--vote"> <div class="contentVote js-contentVote 1 " data-xf-init="content-vote" data-content-id="post-43331338"> <a href="javascript:" class="contentVote-vote is-disabled contentVote-vote--up " data-vote="up"><span class="u-srOnly">Upvote</span></a> <span class="contentVote-scores"> <div class="ars_voteScore"> <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--total is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--total" data-score="14">14</span> (<span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--positive is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--positive" data-score="15">15</span> / <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--negative is-negative js-voteCount js-voteCount--negative" data-score="-1">-1</span>) </div> </span> </div> </span> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/add-reply?post_id=43331338" class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--reply" title="Reply, quoting this message" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay" data-cache="false">Quote</a> </div> <div class="actionBar-set actionBar-set--internal"> <a href="/civis/posts/43331338/report" class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--report" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay">Report</a> </div> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> <section class="message-responses js-messageResponses"> <div class="js-replyNewMessageContainer"></div> </section> </footer> </div> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--vote"> <div class="message-column"> <div class="contentVote js-contentVote 1 " data-xf-init="content-vote" data-content-id="post-43331338"> <a href="javascript:" class="contentVote-vote is-disabled contentVote-vote--up " data-vote="up"><span class="u-srOnly">Upvote</span></a> <span class="contentVote-scores"> <div class="ars_voteScore"> <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--total is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--total" data-score="14">14</span> (<span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--positive is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--positive" data-score="15">15</span> / <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--negative is-negative js-voteCount js-voteCount--negative" data-score="-1">-1</span>) </div> </span> </div> </div> </div> </div> </article> <article class="message message--post js-post arsPvs--neutral js-inlineModContainer " data-author="traumadog" data-content="post-43331344" id="js-post-43331344"> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-43331344"></span> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" class="message-user userExtra--expand"> <div class="message-avatar "> <div class="message-avatar-wrapper"> <a href="/civis/members/traumadog.403803/" class="avatar avatar--s avatar--default avatar--default--dynamic" data-user-id="403803" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" style="background-color: #9c27b0; color: #ea80fc"> <span class="avatar-u403803-s" role="img" aria-label="traumadog">T</span> </a> </div> </div> <div class="uix_messagePostBitWrapper"> <div class="message-userDetails"> <h4 class="message-name"><a href="/civis/members/traumadog.403803/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="403803" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" itemprop="name">traumadog</a></h4> <h5 class="userTitle message-userTitle" dir="auto" itemprop="jobTitle">Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius</h5> </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt> <span data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Oct 29, 2013"> <i class="fa--xf far fa-user" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </dt> <dd><time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2013-10-29T13:01:37-0400" title="Oct 29, 2013 at 1:01 PM">11y</time></dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt> <span data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"> <i class="fa--xf far fa-comments" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </dt> <dd><a href="/civis/search/member?user_id=403803" class="fauxBlockLink-linkRow u-concealed">8,028</a></dd> </dl> </div> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <div class="message-attribution-main"> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331344" class="u-concealed" rel="nofollow"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-11-24T15:14:48-0500" data-time="1732479288" data-date-string="Nov 24, 2024" data-time-string="3:14 PM" title="Nov 24, 2024 at 3:14 PM">Nov 24, 2024</time> </a> <li> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331344" rel="nofollow"> #771 </a> </li> </div> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list"> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main uix_messageContent js-quickEditTarget"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331344" rel="nofollow"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-11-24T15:14:48-0500" data-time="1732479288" data-date-string="Nov 24, 2024" data-time-string="3:14 PM" title="Nov 24, 2024 at 3:14 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Nov 24, 2024</time> </a> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <a href="/civis/posts/43331344/bookmark" class="bookmarkLink message-attribution-gadget bookmarkLink--highlightable " title="Bookmark" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay" data-label=".js-bookmarkText" rel="nofollow" data-sk-bookmarked="addClass:is-bookmarked, Edit bookmark" data-sk-bookmarkremoved="removeClass:is-bookmarked, Add bookmark"><span class="js-bookmarkText u-srOnly">Add bookmark</span></a> </li> <li> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/?thutp_user_id=403803" title="Filter by this user"><i class="fa--xf far fa-user" aria-hidden="true"></i></a> </li> <li> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331344" rel="nofollow"> #771 </a> </li> </ul> </header> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-43331344" data-lb-caption-desc="traumadog · Nov 24, 2024 at 3:14 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 790995" data-quote="purecarrot" data-source="post: 43331047" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/civis/goto/post?id=43331047" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-43331047">purecarrot said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> BS #1. (Let me start counting BS in this discussion). The 700K number you listed is given by Ukraine and some other sources without any real data) but all of the include wounded. "Confirmed" deaths (by biased organizations like BBC and Mediazona) are at 70K: <a href="https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cjr3255gpjgo" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">Volunteers dying as Russia’s war dead tops 70,000</a>.<br /> <br /> You are welcome to the truth. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>From your own reference:<br /> <blockquote data-attributes="" data-quote="" data-source="" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> We have identified the names of 70,112 Russian soldiers killed in Ukraine, but the actual number is believed to be considerably higher. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>Also, the 700k figure is for killed and wounded. Plus, the way Russia has structured benefits for their soldiers means that there's a huge incentive to declare soldiers as "missing", rather than dead.<br /> <br /> As for Russian competency in war, I'd point out that with Vietnam, the US fought from 1954 to 1973 - yes a smaller country but with both Russian and Chinese support on the North Vietnamese side. Over that period, the US lost 58k.<br /> <br /> In Afghanistan, over 20 years the coalition lost 3,621.<br /> <br /> Conversely, over 2+ years in Ukraine, Russia has lost far, far more. Precisely because of WWI-level tactics.</div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <div class="uix_reactionBarWrapper"> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <a class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--menuTrigger" data-xf-click="menu" title="More options" role="button" tabindex="0" aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="true">•••</a> <div class="menu" data-menu="menu" aria-hidden="true" data-menu-builder="actionBarNew"> <div class="menu-content"> <h4 class="menu-header">More options</h4> <div class="js-menuBuilderTarget"></div> <a href="/civis/posts/43331344/report" class="menu-linkRow" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay">Report</a> <a href="/civis/posts/43331344/bookmark" class="bookmarkLink bookmarkLink--highlightable menu-linkRow " title="Bookmark" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay" data-label=".js-bookmarkText" rel="nofollow" data-sk-bookmarked="addClass:is-bookmarked, Edit bookmark" data-sk-bookmarkremoved="removeClass:is-bookmarked, Add bookmark"><span class="js-bookmarkText u-srOnly">Add bookmark</span></a> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331344" class="menu-linkRow" data-href="/civis/posts/43331344/share" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="overlay">Share</a> </div> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-actionBar actionBar"> <div class="actionBar-set actionBar-set--external"> <span class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--vote"> <div class="contentVote js-contentVote 1 " data-xf-init="content-vote" data-content-id="post-43331344"> <a href="javascript:" class="contentVote-vote is-disabled contentVote-vote--up " data-vote="up"><span class="u-srOnly">Upvote</span></a> <span class="contentVote-scores"> <div class="ars_voteScore"> <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--total is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--total" data-score="16">16</span> (<span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--positive is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--positive" data-score="17">17</span> / <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--negative is-negative js-voteCount js-voteCount--negative" data-score="-1">-1</span>) </div> </span> </div> </span> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/add-reply?post_id=43331344" class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--reply" title="Reply, quoting this message" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay" data-cache="false">Quote</a> </div> <div class="actionBar-set actionBar-set--internal"> <a href="/civis/posts/43331344/report" class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--report" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay">Report</a> </div> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> <section class="message-responses js-messageResponses"> <div class="js-replyNewMessageContainer"></div> </section> </footer> </div> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--vote"> <div class="message-column"> <div class="contentVote js-contentVote 1 " data-xf-init="content-vote" data-content-id="post-43331344"> <a href="javascript:" class="contentVote-vote is-disabled contentVote-vote--up " data-vote="up"><span class="u-srOnly">Upvote</span></a> <span class="contentVote-scores"> <div class="ars_voteScore"> <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--total is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--total" data-score="16">16</span> (<span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--positive is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--positive" data-score="17">17</span> / <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--negative is-negative js-voteCount js-voteCount--negative" data-score="-1">-1</span>) </div> </span> </div> </div> </div> </div> </article> <article class="message message--post js-post arsPvs--neutral js-inlineModContainer " data-author="traumadog" data-content="post-43331348" id="js-post-43331348"> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-43331348"></span> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" class="message-user userExtra--expand"> <div class="message-avatar "> <div class="message-avatar-wrapper"> <a href="/civis/members/traumadog.403803/" class="avatar avatar--s avatar--default avatar--default--dynamic" data-user-id="403803" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" style="background-color: #9c27b0; 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Stop the BS. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>No, you're saying the referendum was legitimate.<br /> <br /> When most of the native population was displaced (even towards Russia - and that's your assertion, not mine), any referendum was most definitely NOT legitimate.</div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <div class="uix_reactionBarWrapper"> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <a class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--menuTrigger" data-xf-click="menu" title="More options" role="button" tabindex="0" aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="true">•••</a> <div class="menu" data-menu="menu" aria-hidden="true" data-menu-builder="actionBarNew"> <div class="menu-content"> <h4 class="menu-header">More options</h4> <div class="js-menuBuilderTarget"></div> <a href="/civis/posts/43331348/report" class="menu-linkRow" 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24, 2024 at 3:26 PM">Nov 24, 2024</time> </a> <li> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331360" rel="nofollow"> #777 </a> </li> </div> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list"> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main uix_messageContent js-quickEditTarget"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331360" rel="nofollow"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-11-24T15:26:06-0500" data-time="1732479966" data-date-string="Nov 24, 2024" data-time-string="3:26 PM" title="Nov 24, 2024 at 3:26 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Nov 24, 2024</time> </a> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite 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data-lb-caption-desc="DarthSlack · Nov 24, 2024 at 3:26 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 383753" data-quote="Scornflakes" data-source="post: 43331157" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/civis/goto/post?id=43331157" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-43331157">Scornflakes said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> No. You are spouting hate filled western propaganda. This is one of the root causes leading to the conflict we see in the world today. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote><br /> How is it propaganda that Putin could end the war today just by ordering Russian troops back to Russia?<br /> <br /> One order, he doesn't have to ask anyone, and the war is over. No more shooting, no more US arming Ukraine. Done. Dusted. He can do that all by himself.<br /> <br /> The fact that he refuses to do so just puts paid to your denial that Russians are imperialists bent on subjugating the world through violence.</div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <div class="uix_reactionBarWrapper"> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <a class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--menuTrigger" data-xf-click="menu" title="More options" role="button" tabindex="0" aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="true">•••</a> <div class="menu" data-menu="menu" aria-hidden="true" data-menu-builder="actionBarNew"> <div class="menu-content"> <h4 class="menu-header">More options</h4> <div class="js-menuBuilderTarget"></div> <a href="/civis/posts/43331360/report" class="menu-linkRow" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay">Report</a> <a href="/civis/posts/43331360/bookmark" class="bookmarkLink bookmarkLink--highlightable menu-linkRow " title="Bookmark" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay" data-label=".js-bookmarkText" rel="nofollow" data-sk-bookmarked="addClass:is-bookmarked, Edit bookmark" data-sk-bookmarkremoved="removeClass:is-bookmarked, Add bookmark"><span class="js-bookmarkText u-srOnly">Add bookmark</span></a> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331360" class="menu-linkRow" data-href="/civis/posts/43331360/share" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="overlay">Share</a> </div> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-actionBar actionBar"> <div class="actionBar-set actionBar-set--external"> <span class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--vote"> <div class="contentVote js-contentVote 1 " data-xf-init="content-vote" data-content-id="post-43331360"> <a href="javascript:" class="contentVote-vote is-disabled contentVote-vote--up " data-vote="up"><span class="u-srOnly">Upvote</span></a> <span class="contentVote-scores"> <div class="ars_voteScore"> <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--total is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--total" data-score="18">18</span> (<span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--positive is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--positive" data-score="19">19</span> / <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--negative is-negative js-voteCount js-voteCount--negative" data-score="-1">-1</span>) </div> </span> </div> </span> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/add-reply?post_id=43331360" class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--reply" title="Reply, quoting this message" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay" data-cache="false">Quote</a> </div> <div class="actionBar-set actionBar-set--internal"> <a href="/civis/posts/43331360/report" class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--report" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay">Report</a> </div> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> <section class="message-responses js-messageResponses"> <div class="js-replyNewMessageContainer"></div> </section> </footer> </div> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--vote"> <div class="message-column"> <div class="contentVote js-contentVote 1 " data-xf-init="content-vote" data-content-id="post-43331360"> <a href="javascript:" class="contentVote-vote is-disabled contentVote-vote--up " data-vote="up"><span class="u-srOnly">Upvote</span></a> <span class="contentVote-scores"> <div class="ars_voteScore"> <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--total is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--total" data-score="18">18</span> (<span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--positive is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--positive" data-score="19">19</span> / <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--negative is-negative js-voteCount js-voteCount--negative" data-score="-1">-1</span>) </div> </span> </div> </div> </div> </div> </article> <article class="message message--post js-post arsPvs--neutral js-inlineModContainer " data-author="traumadog" data-content="post-43331366" id="js-post-43331366"> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-43331366"></span> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" class="message-user userExtra--expand"> <div class="message-avatar "> <div class="message-avatar-wrapper"> <a href="/civis/members/traumadog.403803/" class="avatar avatar--s avatar--default avatar--default--dynamic" data-user-id="403803" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" style="background-color: #9c27b0; 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The promlem is so accute that <a href="https://kyivindependent.com/parliament-passes-bill-allowing-first-time-deserters-return-to-military-service/" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">Ukrainian Parliament passes bill allowing first-time deserters to return to military service</a> (without penalty). </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>Except that's desertion following an indefinite combat tour - soldiers on the front lines for years - and something that they're already working to change.<br /> <br /> And it's still less than 4% of the active military force.<br /> <br /> By the way, let me know when the Ukranian military starts using "barrier troops" to prevent desertion or retreat, <a href="https://www.newsweek.com/russian-soldiers-talk-snipers-moscow-threatening-shoot-deserters-1868726" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc 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data-time-string="3:28 PM" title="Nov 24, 2024 at 3:28 PM">Nov 24, 2024</time> </a> <li> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331367" rel="nofollow"> #779 </a> </li> </div> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list"> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main uix_messageContent js-quickEditTarget"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331367" rel="nofollow"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-11-24T15:28:49-0500" data-time="1732480129" data-date-string="Nov 24, 2024" data-time-string="3:28 PM" title="Nov 24, 2024 at 3:28 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Nov 24, 2024</time> </a> </li> </ul> <ul 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data-lb-id="post-43331367" data-lb-caption-desc="unshavenyak · Nov 24, 2024 at 3:28 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 403803" data-quote="traumadog" data-source="post: 43331327" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/civis/goto/post?id=43331327" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-43331327">traumadog said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> Referendum was held <i>before</i> annexation, but the population is returning <i>now</i>?<br /> <br /> Clearly, the vote wasn't as straightforward as you think it was. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>How the fuck does this person say with a straight face that Russia does not purge people despite the history otherwise throughout the former USSR?</div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <div class="uix_reactionBarWrapper"> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <a class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--menuTrigger" data-xf-click="menu" title="More options" role="button" tabindex="0" aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="true">•••</a> <div class="menu" data-menu="menu" aria-hidden="true" data-menu-builder="actionBarNew"> <div class="menu-content"> <h4 class="menu-header">More options</h4> <div class="js-menuBuilderTarget"></div> <a href="/civis/posts/43331367/report" class="menu-linkRow" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay">Report</a> <a href="/civis/posts/43331367/bookmark" class="bookmarkLink bookmarkLink--highlightable menu-linkRow " title="Bookmark" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay" data-label=".js-bookmarkText" rel="nofollow" data-sk-bookmarked="addClass:is-bookmarked, Edit bookmark" 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<span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-43331369"></span> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" class="message-user userExtra--expand"> <div class="message-avatar "> <div class="message-avatar-wrapper"> <a href="/civis/members/unshavenyak.292557/" class="avatar avatar--s avatar--default avatar--default--dynamic" data-user-id="292557" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" style="background-color: #d4e157; color: #f4ff81"> <span class="avatar-u292557-s" role="img" aria-label="unshavenyak">U</span> </a> </div> </div> <div class="uix_messagePostBitWrapper"> <div class="message-userDetails"> <h4 class="message-name"><a href="/civis/members/unshavenyak.292557/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="292557" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" itemprop="name">unshavenyak</a></h4> <h5 class="userTitle message-userTitle" dir="auto" itemprop="jobTitle">Ars Scholae Palatinae</h5> </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt> <span data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Apr 27, 2011"> <i class="fa--xf far fa-user" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </dt> <dd><time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2011-04-27T14:56:02-0400" title="Apr 27, 2011 at 2:56 PM">13y</time></dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt> <span data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"> <i class="fa--xf far fa-comments" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </dt> <dd><a href="/civis/search/member?user_id=292557" class="fauxBlockLink-linkRow u-concealed">782</a></dd> </dl> </div> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <div class="message-attribution-main"> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331369" class="u-concealed" rel="nofollow"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-11-24T15:29:49-0500" data-time="1732480189" 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</ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <a href="/civis/posts/43331369/bookmark" class="bookmarkLink message-attribution-gadget bookmarkLink--highlightable " title="Bookmark" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay" data-label=".js-bookmarkText" rel="nofollow" data-sk-bookmarked="addClass:is-bookmarked, Edit bookmark" data-sk-bookmarkremoved="removeClass:is-bookmarked, Add bookmark"><span class="js-bookmarkText u-srOnly">Add bookmark</span></a> </li> <li> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/?thutp_user_id=292557" title="Filter by this user"><i class="fa--xf far fa-user" aria-hidden="true"></i></a> </li> <li> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331369" rel="nofollow"> #780 </a> </li> </ul> </header> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-43331369" data-lb-caption-desc="unshavenyak · Nov 24, 2024 at 3:29 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 790995" data-quote="purecarrot" data-source="post: 43331357" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/civis/goto/post?id=43331357" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-43331357">purecarrot said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> BS #5. The image was copied from a very patriotic Ukrainian news site <a href="https://dumskaya.net/news/_6174-186399/" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">dumskaya.net</a>. Feel free to check the link. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>Yes, a crippled man in bed with cash. Meanwhile, in Russia...</div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <div class="uix_reactionBarWrapper"> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <a class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--menuTrigger" data-xf-click="menu" title="More options" role="button" tabindex="0" aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="true">•••</a> <div class="menu" data-menu="menu" aria-hidden="true" data-menu-builder="actionBarNew"> <div class="menu-content"> <h4 class="menu-header">More options</h4> <div class="js-menuBuilderTarget"></div> <a href="/civis/posts/43331369/report" class="menu-linkRow" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay">Report</a> <a href="/civis/posts/43331369/bookmark" class="bookmarkLink bookmarkLink--highlightable menu-linkRow " title="Bookmark" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay" data-label=".js-bookmarkText" rel="nofollow" data-sk-bookmarked="addClass:is-bookmarked, Edit bookmark" data-sk-bookmarkremoved="removeClass:is-bookmarked, Add bookmark"><span class="js-bookmarkText u-srOnly">Add bookmark</span></a> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331369" class="menu-linkRow" data-href="/civis/posts/43331369/share" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="overlay">Share</a> </div> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-actionBar actionBar"> <div class="actionBar-set actionBar-set--external"> <span class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--vote"> <div class="contentVote js-contentVote 1 " data-xf-init="content-vote" data-content-id="post-43331369"> <a href="javascript:" class="contentVote-vote is-disabled contentVote-vote--up " data-vote="up"><span class="u-srOnly">Upvote</span></a> <span class="contentVote-scores"> <div class="ars_voteScore"> <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--total is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--total" data-score="13">13</span> (<span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--positive is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--positive" data-score="13">13</span> / <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--negative js-voteCount js-voteCount--negative" data-score="0">0</span>) </div> </span> </div> </span> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/add-reply?post_id=43331369" class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--reply" title="Reply, quoting this message" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay" data-cache="false">Quote</a> </div> <div class="actionBar-set actionBar-set--internal"> <a href="/civis/posts/43331369/report" class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--report" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay">Report</a> </div> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> <section class="message-responses js-messageResponses"> <div class="js-replyNewMessageContainer"></div> </section> </footer> </div> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--vote"> <div class="message-column"> <div class="contentVote js-contentVote 1 " data-xf-init="content-vote" data-content-id="post-43331369"> <a href="javascript:" class="contentVote-vote is-disabled contentVote-vote--up " data-vote="up"><span class="u-srOnly">Upvote</span></a> <span class="contentVote-scores"> <div class="ars_voteScore"> <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--total is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--total" data-score="13">13</span> (<span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--positive is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--positive" data-score="13">13</span> / <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--negative js-voteCount js-voteCount--negative" data-score="0">0</span>) </div> </span> </div> </div> </div> </div> </article> <article class="message message--post js-post arsPvs--neutral js-inlineModContainer " data-author="traumadog" data-content="post-43331375" id="js-post-43331375"> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-43331375"></span> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" class="message-user userExtra--expand"> <div class="message-avatar "> <div class="message-avatar-wrapper"> <a href="/civis/members/traumadog.403803/" class="avatar avatar--s avatar--default avatar--default--dynamic" data-user-id="403803" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" style="background-color: #9c27b0; 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You keep lying. I might have implied that Crimean referendum was as legitimate as the Hawaiian one but this does not mean either of them was legitimate (or not). </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>This is your quote here:<br /> <blockquote data-attributes="" data-quote="" data-source="" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> <b>Since 1991 Russia annexed some Ukrainian territories. That's it (though, technically all the regions joined Russia after referendums).</b> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>Edit: how would those regions have "joined" Russia if the vote wasn't thought of by the Russians as "legitimate"?</div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <div class="uix_reactionBarWrapper"> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <a class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--menuTrigger" data-xf-click="menu" title="More options" role="button" tabindex="0" aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="true">•••</a> <div class="menu" data-menu="menu" aria-hidden="true" data-menu-builder="actionBarNew"> <div class="menu-content"> <h4 class="menu-header">More options</h4> <div class="js-menuBuilderTarget"></div> <a href="/civis/posts/43331375/report" class="menu-linkRow" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay">Report</a> <a 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itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" class="message-user userExtra--expand"> <div class="message-avatar "> <div class="message-avatar-wrapper"> <a href="/civis/members/atterus.721913/" class="avatar avatar--s avatar--default avatar--default--dynamic" data-user-id="721913" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" style="background-color: #e53935; color: #ff8a80"> <span class="avatar-u721913-s" role="img" aria-label="Atterus">A</span> </a> </div> </div> <div class="uix_messagePostBitWrapper"> <div class="message-userDetails"> <h4 class="message-name"><a href="/civis/members/atterus.721913/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="721913" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" itemprop="name">Atterus</a></h4> <h5 class="userTitle message-userTitle" dir="auto" itemprop="jobTitle">Ars Tribunus Militum</h5> </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt> <span data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Mar 22, 2018"> <i class="fa--xf far fa-user" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </dt> <dd><time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2018-03-22T13:01:01-0400" title="Mar 22, 2018 at 1:01 PM">6y</time></dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt> <span data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"> <i class="fa--xf far fa-comments" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </dt> <dd><a href="/civis/search/member?user_id=721913" class="fauxBlockLink-linkRow u-concealed">2,046</a></dd> </dl> </div> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <div class="message-attribution-main"> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331380" class="u-concealed" rel="nofollow"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-11-24T15:36:04-0500" data-time="1732480564" data-date-string="Nov 24, 2024" data-time-string="3:36 PM" title="Nov 24, 2024 at 3:36 PM">Nov 24, 2024</time> </a> <li> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331380" rel="nofollow"> #783 </a> </li> </div> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list"> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main uix_messageContent js-quickEditTarget"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331380" rel="nofollow"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-11-24T15:36:04-0500" data-time="1732480564" data-date-string="Nov 24, 2024" data-time-string="3:36 PM" title="Nov 24, 2024 at 3:36 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Nov 24, 2024</time> </a> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <a 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<article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div class="bbWrapper">Pure still afraid to talk about <b>Russian World</b>. Because they actually defended it, and beat around the bush about it being simple modern super Nazism. The governing ideology of Russia, and popular with those Russians remaining. Or why Russia feels the need to use a rare, expensive, and ineffective ICBM on a nation that has none.<br /> <br /> I did enjoy him thinking there is such a thing as an "ethnic American" like there is such a thing as "ethnic Russian". Oh wait, there is... they're all descended from the "Kievian Rus"! <i>Ukrainians</i><br /> <br /> Shows how utterly nonsense his <b>Russian World</b> ideology is. Which includes made up histories just like the Nazis did.<br /> <br /> Just remember when arguing with Pure or his buddies. They want to distract from the article, and their Nazism, and to make ancient history and the Kremlins barbarism "normal".<br /> <br /> Glad to see no one is taking them seriously, even the people browsing the comments. Ergo, why do you bother peddling lies Pure? Is it the vodka payment? I bet it's the vodka payment...</div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <div class="uix_reactionBarWrapper"> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <a class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--menuTrigger" data-xf-click="menu" title="More options" role="button" tabindex="0" aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="true">•••</a> <div class="menu" data-menu="menu" aria-hidden="true" data-menu-builder="actionBarNew"> <div class="menu-content"> <h4 class="menu-header">More options</h4> <div class="js-menuBuilderTarget"></div> <a href="/civis/posts/43331380/report" class="menu-linkRow" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay">Report</a> <a href="/civis/posts/43331380/bookmark" class="bookmarkLink bookmarkLink--highlightable menu-linkRow " title="Bookmark" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay" data-label=".js-bookmarkText" rel="nofollow" data-sk-bookmarked="addClass:is-bookmarked, Edit bookmark" data-sk-bookmarkremoved="removeClass:is-bookmarked, Add bookmark"><span 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class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" class="message-user userExtra--expand"> <div class="message-avatar "> <div class="message-avatar-wrapper"> <a href="/civis/members/antron-argaiv.416491/" class="avatar avatar--s avatar--default avatar--default--dynamic" data-user-id="416491" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" style="background-color: #7cb342; color: #ccff90"> <span class="avatar-u416491-s" role="img" aria-label="Antron Argaiv">A</span> </a> </div> </div> <div class="uix_messagePostBitWrapper"> <div class="message-userDetails"> <h4 class="message-name"><a href="/civis/members/antron-argaiv.416491/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="416491" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" itemprop="name">Antron Argaiv</a></h4> <h5 class="userTitle message-userTitle" dir="auto" itemprop="jobTitle">Ars Tribunus Militum</h5> </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt> <span 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2024 at 3:36 PM">Nov 24, 2024</time> </a> <li> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331382" rel="nofollow"> #784 </a> </li> </div> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list"> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main uix_messageContent js-quickEditTarget"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331382" rel="nofollow"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-11-24T15:36:29-0500" data-time="1732480589" data-date-string="Nov 24, 2024" data-time-string="3:36 PM" title="Nov 24, 2024 at 3:36 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Nov 24, 2024</time> </a> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite 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data-lb-caption-desc="Antron Argaiv · Nov 24, 2024 at 3:36 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 378119" data-quote="UserIDAlreadyInUse" data-source="post: 43327528" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/civis/goto/post?id=43327528" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-43327528">UserIDAlreadyInUse said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> As an aside, add some anthropomorphic faces to those images of the Mobile RS-24 Yars intercontinental ballistic missile launchers and they strike me as a dystopian, military version of Thomas the Tank Engine. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>Might I suggest a 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class="avatar-u292557-s" role="img" aria-label="unshavenyak">U</span> </a> </div> </div> <div class="uix_messagePostBitWrapper"> <div class="message-userDetails"> <h4 class="message-name"><a href="/civis/members/unshavenyak.292557/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="292557" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" itemprop="name">unshavenyak</a></h4> <h5 class="userTitle message-userTitle" dir="auto" itemprop="jobTitle">Ars Scholae Palatinae</h5> </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt> <span data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Apr 27, 2011"> <i class="fa--xf far fa-user" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </dt> <dd><time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2011-04-27T14:56:02-0400" title="Apr 27, 2011 at 2:56 PM">13y</time></dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt> <span data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"> <i class="fa--xf far fa-comments" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </dt> <dd><a href="/civis/search/member?user_id=292557" class="fauxBlockLink-linkRow u-concealed">782</a></dd> </dl> </div> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <div class="message-attribution-main"> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331386" class="u-concealed" rel="nofollow"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-11-24T15:39:01-0500" data-time="1732480741" data-date-string="Nov 24, 2024" data-time-string="3:39 PM" title="Nov 24, 2024 at 3:39 PM">Nov 24, 2024</time> </a> <li> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331386" rel="nofollow"> #786 </a> </li> </div> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list"> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main uix_messageContent js-quickEditTarget"> <header class="message-attribution 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data-content-selector="#post-43331383">Zaitu said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> 'The US pulled out of the treaty in 2019 under the first Trump administration, <i>citing non-compliance from Russia.</i>' - The USA stated this but it was a lie.<br /> <br /> This article doesn't even consider US direct involvement and meddling in Ukraine for the last 20 years. Ukraine is not even on the same continent as the USA. The USA should stop ruining other countries and go home. No one wants Americans in their country. Ruin your own country please and not others. Why do guys always have to be the bully. Yankee go home. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>Russia invading the former Soviets. Russia engineering a pro-Russian government, despite Ukraine voting 50/50. Russia fomenting rebellion in Eastern Ukraine, after colonizing it decades prior. Russia, stop ruining a country that doesn't want you. Why do Russians always have to be the bullies? Russian bullies, go home.</div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <div class="uix_reactionBarWrapper"> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <a class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--menuTrigger" data-xf-click="menu" title="More options" role="button" tabindex="0" aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="true">•••</a> <div class="menu" data-menu="menu" aria-hidden="true" data-menu-builder="actionBarNew"> <div class="menu-content"> <h4 class="menu-header">More options</h4> <div class="js-menuBuilderTarget"></div> <a href="/civis/posts/43331386/report" class="menu-linkRow" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay">Report</a> <a href="/civis/posts/43331386/bookmark" class="bookmarkLink bookmarkLink--highlightable menu-linkRow " title="Bookmark" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay" data-label=".js-bookmarkText" rel="nofollow" data-sk-bookmarked="addClass:is-bookmarked, Edit bookmark" data-sk-bookmarkremoved="removeClass:is-bookmarked, Add bookmark"><span 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data-xf-init="member-tooltip" style="background-color: #9c27b0; color: #ea80fc"> <span class="avatar-u403803-s" role="img" aria-label="traumadog">T</span> </a> </div> </div> <div class="uix_messagePostBitWrapper"> <div class="message-userDetails"> <h4 class="message-name"><a href="/civis/members/traumadog.403803/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="403803" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" itemprop="name">traumadog</a></h4> <h5 class="userTitle message-userTitle" dir="auto" itemprop="jobTitle">Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius</h5> </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt> <span data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Oct 29, 2013"> <i class="fa--xf far fa-user" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </dt> <dd><time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2013-10-29T13:01:37-0400" title="Oct 29, 2013 at 1:01 PM">11y</time></dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt> <span data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"> <i class="fa--xf far fa-comments" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </dt> <dd><a href="/civis/search/member?user_id=403803" class="fauxBlockLink-linkRow u-concealed">8,028</a></dd> </dl> </div> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <div class="message-attribution-main"> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331389" class="u-concealed" rel="nofollow"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-11-24T15:43:13-0500" data-time="1732480993" data-date-string="Nov 24, 2024" data-time-string="3:43 PM" title="Nov 24, 2024 at 3:43 PM">Nov 24, 2024</time> </a> <li> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331389" rel="nofollow"> #788 </a> </li> </div> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list"> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div 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class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-43331376">purecarrot said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> Yes, and his mother is ahead of a charity that gets money from the west. That's how he got the money. BTW, Ukraine being one of the most ccorrupt countries in the world, "disabilty" papers and conscription waivers in Ukraine go for $3K to $10K. I suspect that's how this dude got his "disability". He definitely does not look disabled on the video where he dances with a wade of money attached to his ass. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>If it was so corrupt, then why would Russia needed to start such a "special military operation"? <img class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" alt="🙄" title="Face with rolling eyes :rolling_eyes:" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/6.6/png/unicode/64/1f644.png" data-shortname=":rolling_eyes:" /><br /> <br /> Putin could have simply waited for the country or the government to collapse, and offered support then. <br /> <br /> But wait, I suppose Zelinskyy's election and the possibility that Ukraine could have straightened itself out and fixed the corruption - as part of a requirement to join the EU - likely pushed Putin's hand to start the "SMO" now, before Ukraine was "lost forever" to greater Europe.</div> <div 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data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-43331388">purecarrot said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> Do you see the word "legitimate" in this statement? Fuck off. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>Wow, powerful argument there.<br /> <br /> So you agree, all of the currently Russian-occupied territories are NOT legitimately part of Russia...</div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <div class="uix_reactionBarWrapper"> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <a class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--menuTrigger" data-xf-click="menu" title="More options" role="button" tabindex="0" aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="true">•••</a> <div class="menu" data-menu="menu" aria-hidden="true" data-menu-builder="actionBarNew"> <div class="menu-content"> <h4 class="menu-header">More options</h4> <div class="js-menuBuilderTarget"></div> <a href="/civis/posts/43331392/report" class="menu-linkRow" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay">Report</a> <a href="/civis/posts/43331392/bookmark" class="bookmarkLink 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href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331405" rel="nofollow"> #792 </a> </li> </div> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list"> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main uix_messageContent js-quickEditTarget"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331405" rel="nofollow"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-11-24T15:53:26-0500" data-time="1732481606" data-date-string="Nov 24, 2024" data-time-string="3:53 PM" title="Nov 24, 2024 at 3:53 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Nov 24, 2024</time> </a> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <a 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<article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 790995" data-quote="purecarrot" data-source="post: 43331397" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/civis/goto/post?id=43331397" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-43331397">purecarrot said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> Are you serious? "If it was so corrupt"? The Guardian: <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/04/welcome-to-the-most-corrupt-nation-in-europe-ukraine" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">Welcome to Ukraine, the most corrupt nation in Europe</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>Umm, note the date:<br /> <a href="https://arstechnica.com/civis/attachments/screenshot_20241124_155026_chrome-jpg.96391/" target="_blank"><img src="https://cdn.arstechnica.net/civis/data/attachments/52/52913-5fcd82b859bf0e52a8df152e93eb2d40.jpg" class="bbImage " style="" alt="Screenshot_20241124_155026_Chrome.jpg" title="Screenshot_20241124_155026_Chrome.jpg" width="150" height="334" loading="lazy" /></a><br /> <br /> That's just one year after the pro-Moscow Yanukovich fled the country. No corrupted society changes in a year.<br /> <br /> Which kind of reinforces my point, after all. Heck, trolls had to invent the fiction of Zelinskyy's wife buying fancy luxury items to keep the fallacy going.</div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <div class="uix_reactionBarWrapper"> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <a class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--menuTrigger" data-xf-click="menu" title="More options" role="button" tabindex="0" aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="true">•••</a> <div class="menu" data-menu="menu" aria-hidden="true" data-menu-builder="actionBarNew"> <div class="menu-content"> <h4 class="menu-header">More options</h4> <div class="js-menuBuilderTarget"></div> <a href="/civis/posts/43331405/report" class="menu-linkRow" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay">Report</a> <a href="/civis/posts/43331405/bookmark" class="bookmarkLink bookmarkLink--highlightable menu-linkRow " title="Bookmark" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay" data-label=".js-bookmarkText" rel="nofollow" data-sk-bookmarked="addClass:is-bookmarked, Edit 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data-xf-init="member-tooltip" style="background-color: #ad1457; color: #ff80ab"> <span class="avatar-u1076715-s" role="img" aria-label="dzid">D</span> </a> </div> </div> <div class="uix_messagePostBitWrapper"> <div class="message-userDetails"> <h4 class="message-name"><a href="/civis/members/dzid.1076715/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="1076715" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" itemprop="name">dzid</a></h4> <h5 class="userTitle message-userTitle" dir="auto" itemprop="jobTitle">Wise, Aged Ars Veteran</h5> </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt> <span data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Oct 26, 2024"> <i class="fa--xf far fa-user" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </dt> <dd><time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-10-26T05:31:49-0400" title="Oct 26, 2024 at 5:31 AM">3m</time></dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt> <span data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"> <i class="fa--xf far fa-comments" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </dt> <dd><a href="/civis/search/member?user_id=1076715" class="fauxBlockLink-linkRow u-concealed">252</a></dd> </dl> </div> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <div class="message-attribution-main"> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331409" class="u-concealed" rel="nofollow"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-11-24T15:57:05-0500" data-time="1732481825" data-date-string="Nov 24, 2024" data-time-string="3:57 PM" title="Nov 24, 2024 at 3:57 PM">Nov 24, 2024</time> </a> <li> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331409" rel="nofollow"> #794 </a> </li> </div> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list"> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main uix_messageContent 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data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-43330434">H2O Rip said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> This is why we teach history, because it often rhymes.<br /> Go ahead and let me know how the appeasement strategy worked with Hitler, oh wait it didn't did it?<br /> <br /> Are we going to give up Poland next because nuclear holocaust isn't acceptable? Germany? All of Europe? Your solution of "give the threatening party with nukes everything" makes the problem far worse. Putin will not stop with Ukraine and all your recommendation does is bring nukes to the table more often as a strategy - and actually makes said nuclear holocaust more likely over time. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>Exactly. I remember as a kid in 6th or 7th grade, after the dumbass 'hide under your desk' drills, we'd talk about whether we'd prefer being vaporized immediately, dying in agony with radiation poisoning or trying to rebuild civilization in a radioactive waste heap. Yeah, most went with option 1. For a while I thought we got a bit smarter about that.<br /> <br /> Nuclear weapons suck. Their only value is as a deterrent, and that's questionable. They're expensive to build and maintain, and they require a complex infrastructure to keep on alert, along with all the fancy permission lock mechanisms that sane militaries use (which assumes the leader is a rational actor). Hell, we have an entire national lab (National Ignition Facility) whose job number one is to ensure that the warheads function as expected. The only saving grace there is that the research can potentially be used for something useful (nuclear fusion) to help with our other impending own goal.<br /> <br /> Speaking of rational actors, I'm not even going to speculate about Putin. But China, I'm pretty sure that Xi is a rational actor. And I don't think he wants India and Pakistan, watching each other warily, both nuclear-armed, getting the idea that lobbing nukes is a-ok. And he also knows that Ukraine produces a hell of a lot of the world's grain (or can, when it's not fighting a war and trying to ensure the grain doesn't get stolen). And that requires land that isn't loaded with fission products. And China has an awful lot of people to feed. Not to mention the worlds billionaires know their villa is going to depreciate if it's radioactive.<br /> <br /> All this to say, think about these things the next time you see someone attempting some nuclear d*ck-swinging. Respect for internationally recognized borders and the post-WWII peace* (comparatively) were hard won by those that came before us. Let's try not to screw that up.<br /> <br /> * Noting that as an American there are things that I'm not proud of. 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</dt> <dd><a href="/civis/search/member?user_id=196863" class="fauxBlockLink-linkRow u-concealed">16,540</a></dd> </dl> </div> <div class="userBanner arsProBanner arsProBanner--plus message-userBanner" itemprop="jobTitle"><span class="userBanner-before"></span><strong>Subscriptor++</strong><span class="userBanner-after"></span></div> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <div class="message-attribution-main"> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331419" class="u-concealed" rel="nofollow"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-11-24T16:04:11-0500" data-time="1732482251" data-date-string="Nov 24, 2024" data-time-string="4:04 PM" title="Nov 24, 2024 at 4:04 PM">Nov 24, 2024</time> </a> <li> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331419" rel="nofollow"> #796 </a> </li> </div> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list"> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main uix_messageContent js-quickEditTarget"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331419" rel="nofollow"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-11-24T16:04:11-0500" data-time="1732482251" data-date-string="Nov 24, 2024" data-time-string="4:04 PM" title="Nov 24, 2024 at 4:04 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Nov 24, 2024</time> </a> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <a href="/civis/posts/43331419/bookmark" class="bookmarkLink message-attribution-gadget bookmarkLink--highlightable " title="Bookmark" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay" 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class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/civis/goto/post?id=43331409" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-43331409">dzid said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> Speaking of rational actors, I'm not even going to speculate about Putin. But China, I'm pretty sure that Xi is a rational actor. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote><br /> He isn't.<br /> He's your typical self-centered authoritarian who is unable to understand people who don't think the same way.</div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <div class="uix_reactionBarWrapper"> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <a class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--menuTrigger" data-xf-click="menu" title="More options" role="button" tabindex="0" aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="true">•••</a> <div class="menu" data-menu="menu" aria-hidden="true" data-menu-builder="actionBarNew"> <div class="menu-content"> <h4 class="menu-header">More options</h4> <div class="js-menuBuilderTarget"></div> <a href="/civis/posts/43331419/report" class="menu-linkRow" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay">Report</a> <a href="/civis/posts/43331419/bookmark" class="bookmarkLink bookmarkLink--highlightable menu-linkRow " title="Bookmark" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay" data-label=".js-bookmarkText" rel="nofollow" data-sk-bookmarked="addClass:is-bookmarked, Edit bookmark" data-sk-bookmarkremoved="removeClass:is-bookmarked, Add bookmark"><span class="js-bookmarkText u-srOnly">Add bookmark</span></a> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331419" class="menu-linkRow" data-href="/civis/posts/43331419/share" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="overlay">Share</a> </div> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-actionBar actionBar"> <div class="actionBar-set actionBar-set--external"> <span class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--vote"> <div class="contentVote js-contentVote 1 " data-xf-init="content-vote" data-content-id="post-43331419"> <a href="javascript:" class="contentVote-vote is-disabled contentVote-vote--up " data-vote="up"><span class="u-srOnly">Upvote</span></a> <span class="contentVote-scores"> <div class="ars_voteScore"> <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--total is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--total" data-score="6">6</span> (<span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--positive is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--positive" data-score="8">8</span> / <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--negative is-negative js-voteCount js-voteCount--negative" data-score="-2">-2</span>) </div> </span> </div> </span> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/add-reply?post_id=43331419" class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--reply" title="Reply, quoting this message" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay" data-cache="false">Quote</a> </div> <div class="actionBar-set actionBar-set--internal"> <a href="/civis/posts/43331419/report" class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--report" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay">Report</a> </div> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> <section class="message-responses js-messageResponses"> <div class="js-replyNewMessageContainer"></div> </section> </footer> </div> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--vote"> <div class="message-column"> <div class="contentVote js-contentVote 1 " data-xf-init="content-vote" data-content-id="post-43331419"> <a href="javascript:" class="contentVote-vote is-disabled contentVote-vote--up " data-vote="up"><span class="u-srOnly">Upvote</span></a> <span class="contentVote-scores"> <div class="ars_voteScore"> <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--total is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--total" data-score="6">6</span> (<span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--positive is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--positive" data-score="8">8</span> / <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--negative is-negative js-voteCount js-voteCount--negative" data-score="-2">-2</span>) </div> </span> </div> </div> </div> </div> </article> <article class="message message--post js-post arsPvs--neutral js-inlineModContainer " data-author="traumadog" data-content="post-43331438" id="js-post-43331438"> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-43331438"></span> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" class="message-user userExtra--expand"> <div class="message-avatar "> <div class="message-avatar-wrapper"> <a href="/civis/members/traumadog.403803/" class="avatar avatar--s avatar--default avatar--default--dynamic" data-user-id="403803" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" style="background-color: #9c27b0; color: #ea80fc"> <span class="avatar-u403803-s" role="img" aria-label="traumadog">T</span> </a> </div> </div> <div class="uix_messagePostBitWrapper"> <div class="message-userDetails"> <h4 class="message-name"><a href="/civis/members/traumadog.403803/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="403803" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" itemprop="name">traumadog</a></h4> <h5 class="userTitle message-userTitle" dir="auto" itemprop="jobTitle">Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius</h5> </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt> <span data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Oct 29, 2013"> <i class="fa--xf far fa-user" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </dt> <dd><time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2013-10-29T13:01:37-0400" title="Oct 29, 2013 at 1:01 PM">11y</time></dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt> <span data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"> <i class="fa--xf far fa-comments" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </dt> <dd><a href="/civis/search/member?user_id=403803" class="fauxBlockLink-linkRow u-concealed">8,028</a></dd> </dl> </div> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <div class="message-attribution-main"> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331438" class="u-concealed" rel="nofollow"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-11-24T16:17:45-0500" data-time="1732483065" data-date-string="Nov 24, 2024" data-time-string="4:17 PM" title="Nov 24, 2024 at 4:17 PM">Nov 24, 2024</time> </a> <li> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331438" rel="nofollow"> #797 </a> </li> </div> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list"> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main uix_messageContent js-quickEditTarget"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331438" rel="nofollow"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-11-24T16:17:45-0500" data-time="1732483065" data-date-string="Nov 24, 2024" data-time-string="4:17 PM" title="Nov 24, 2024 at 4:17 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Nov 24, 2024</time> </a> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <a href="/civis/posts/43331438/bookmark" class="bookmarkLink message-attribution-gadget bookmarkLink--highlightable " title="Bookmark" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay" data-label=".js-bookmarkText" rel="nofollow" data-sk-bookmarked="addClass:is-bookmarked, Edit bookmark" data-sk-bookmarkremoved="removeClass:is-bookmarked, Add bookmark"><span class="js-bookmarkText u-srOnly">Add bookmark</span></a> </li> <li> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/?thutp_user_id=403803" title="Filter by this user"><i class="fa--xf far fa-user" aria-hidden="true"></i></a> </li> <li> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331438" rel="nofollow"> #797 </a> </li> </ul> </header> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-43331438" data-lb-caption-desc="traumadog · Nov 24, 2024 at 4:17 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 790995" data-quote="purecarrot" data-source="post: 43331413" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/civis/goto/post?id=43331413" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-43331413">purecarrot said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Ukraine" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">Wikipedia</a>: Transparency International's 2023 Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI), which scored 180 countries on a scale from 0 ("highly corrupt") to 100 ("very clean"), gave Ukraine a score of 36. When ranked by score, Ukraine ranked 104th among the 180 countries in the Index, where the country ranked first is perceived to have the most honest public. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>So, you mean decades (if not centuries) of Russian influences were bad for the country? And that countries can't magically fix themselves in 10 years?<br /> <br /> Who knew?</div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <div class="uix_reactionBarWrapper"> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <a class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--menuTrigger" data-xf-click="menu" title="More options" role="button" tabindex="0" aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="true">•••</a> <div class="menu" data-menu="menu" aria-hidden="true" data-menu-builder="actionBarNew"> <div class="menu-content"> <h4 class="menu-header">More options</h4> <div class="js-menuBuilderTarget"></div> <a href="/civis/posts/43331438/report" class="menu-linkRow" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay">Report</a> <a href="/civis/posts/43331438/bookmark" class="bookmarkLink bookmarkLink--highlightable menu-linkRow " title="Bookmark" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay" data-label=".js-bookmarkText" rel="nofollow" data-sk-bookmarked="addClass:is-bookmarked, Edit bookmark" data-sk-bookmarkremoved="removeClass:is-bookmarked, Add bookmark"><span class="js-bookmarkText u-srOnly">Add bookmark</span></a> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331438" class="menu-linkRow" data-href="/civis/posts/43331438/share" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="overlay">Share</a> </div> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-actionBar actionBar"> <div class="actionBar-set actionBar-set--external"> <span class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--vote"> <div class="contentVote js-contentVote 1 " data-xf-init="content-vote" data-content-id="post-43331438"> <a href="javascript:" class="contentVote-vote is-disabled contentVote-vote--up " data-vote="up"><span class="u-srOnly">Upvote</span></a> <span class="contentVote-scores"> <div class="ars_voteScore"> <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--total is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--total" data-score="23">23</span> (<span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--positive is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--positive" data-score="23">23</span> / <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--negative js-voteCount js-voteCount--negative" data-score="0">0</span>) </div> </span> </div> </span> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/add-reply?post_id=43331438" class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--reply" title="Reply, quoting this message" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay" data-cache="false">Quote</a> </div> <div class="actionBar-set actionBar-set--internal"> <a href="/civis/posts/43331438/report" class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--report" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay">Report</a> </div> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> <section class="message-responses js-messageResponses"> <div class="js-replyNewMessageContainer"></div> </section> </footer> </div> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--vote"> <div class="message-column"> <div class="contentVote js-contentVote 1 " data-xf-init="content-vote" data-content-id="post-43331438"> <a href="javascript:" class="contentVote-vote is-disabled contentVote-vote--up " data-vote="up"><span class="u-srOnly">Upvote</span></a> <span class="contentVote-scores"> <div class="ars_voteScore"> <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--total is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--total" data-score="23">23</span> (<span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--positive is-positive js-voteCount js-voteCount--positive" data-score="23">23</span> / <span class="contentVote-score contentVote-score--negative js-voteCount js-voteCount--negative" data-score="0">0</span>) </div> </span> </div> </div> </div> </div> </article> <article class="message message--post js-post arsPvs--neutral js-inlineModContainer " data-author="traumadog" data-content="post-43331441" id="js-post-43331441"> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-43331441"></span> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" class="message-user userExtra--expand"> <div class="message-avatar "> <div class="message-avatar-wrapper"> <a href="/civis/members/traumadog.403803/" class="avatar avatar--s avatar--default avatar--default--dynamic" data-user-id="403803" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" style="background-color: #9c27b0; 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Does Hawaii legitimately belong to US? Does Jerusalem belong to Israel? It depends on who you ask. It's not like there is some court that can adjudicate this. You must seriously believe in the "rules based order" BS. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>I guess you believe in the "strongest says" BS, then...<br /> <br /> Which just makes it more surprising that Russia, for all its bluster as the "second most powerful military in the world", can't finish the job against a country literally using NATO cast-offs.</div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <div class="uix_reactionBarWrapper"> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <a class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--menuTrigger" data-xf-click="menu" title="More options" role="button" tabindex="0" aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="true">•••</a> <div class="menu" data-menu="menu" aria-hidden="true" data-menu-builder="actionBarNew"> <div class="menu-content"> <h4 class="menu-header">More options</h4> <div class="js-menuBuilderTarget"></div> <a 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increasing scores.<br /> <br /> Also, the average score for Eastern European countries in 2023 was 35</div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <div class="uix_reactionBarWrapper"> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <a class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--menuTrigger" data-xf-click="menu" title="More options" role="button" tabindex="0" aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="true">•••</a> <div class="menu" data-menu="menu" aria-hidden="true" data-menu-builder="actionBarNew"> <div class="menu-content"> <h4 class="menu-header">More options</h4> <div class="js-menuBuilderTarget"></div> <a href="/civis/posts/43331446/report" class="menu-linkRow" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay">Report</a> <a href="/civis/posts/43331446/bookmark" class="bookmarkLink bookmarkLink--highlightable menu-linkRow " title="Bookmark" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay" data-label=".js-bookmarkText" rel="nofollow" data-sk-bookmarked="addClass:is-bookmarked, Edit bookmark" 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class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-43331448"></span> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" class="message-user userExtra--expand"> <div class="message-avatar "> <div class="message-avatar-wrapper"> <a href="/civis/members/atterus.721913/" class="avatar avatar--s avatar--default avatar--default--dynamic" data-user-id="721913" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" style="background-color: #e53935; color: #ff8a80"> <span class="avatar-u721913-s" role="img" aria-label="Atterus">A</span> </a> </div> </div> <div class="uix_messagePostBitWrapper"> <div class="message-userDetails"> <h4 class="message-name"><a href="/civis/members/atterus.721913/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="721913" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" itemprop="name">Atterus</a></h4> <h5 class="userTitle message-userTitle" dir="auto" itemprop="jobTitle">Ars Tribunus Militum</h5> </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs 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data-time-string="4:21 PM" title="Nov 24, 2024 at 4:21 PM">Nov 24, 2024</time> </a> <li> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331448" rel="nofollow"> #800 </a> </li> </div> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list"> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main uix_messageContent js-quickEditTarget"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <a href="/civis/threads/russian-ballistic-missile-attack-on-ukraine-portends-new-era-of-warfare.1504241/post-43331448" rel="nofollow"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-11-24T16:21:53-0500" data-time="1732483313" data-date-string="Nov 24, 2024" data-time-string="4:21 PM" title="Nov 24, 2024 at 4:21 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Nov 24, 2024</time> </a> </li> </ul> <ul 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data-lb-id="post-43331448" data-lb-caption-desc="Atterus · Nov 24, 2024 at 4:21 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div class="bbWrapper">Pure is still trying to distract from the article referencing the one-off unarmed Russian ICBM used against a nation without them and <b>Russian World</b>. See how hard he is going to distract from them? It's his job. To distract from careful, actual, analysis over his direction to Russian media and fakery. <br /> <br /> He's a excellent example of SVR intel operations. Everything they post can probably be found in their manual, and canned response lists.<br /> <br /> You'll never convince a vatnik of anything that doesn't come from the Kremlin. Which is odd he is so unwilling to talk about <b>Russian World</b>. Putin and major Russian talking heads do all the time. Why are they so ashamed of it? Could it be because it is mega supercharged Nazism?<br /> <br /> Treat them as a window into the deranged mind of Russia. Where their victim mentality rules everything, even though they have ever only been the bullies. Even WW2... they were allied with the Nazis originally. Never forget that, because that "trauma" is a major justification for their behavior. Even though they keep bringing it onto themselves.<br /> <br /> As ever, all Russia needs to do: is go home. They are not in their territory, and are the ones that violated treaties.</div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <div class="uix_reactionBarWrapper"> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <a class="actionBar-action actionBar-action--menuTrigger" data-xf-click="menu" title="More options" role="button" tabindex="0" aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="true">•••</a> <div class="menu" data-menu="menu" aria-hidden="true" data-menu-builder="actionBarNew"> <div class="menu-content"> <h4 class="menu-header">More options</h4> <div class="js-menuBuilderTarget"></div> <a href="/civis/posts/43331448/report" class="menu-linkRow" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay">Report</a> <a href="/civis/posts/43331448/bookmark" class="bookmarkLink bookmarkLink--highlightable menu-linkRow " title="Bookmark" data-xf-click="adguest-overlay" data-label=".js-bookmarkText" rel="nofollow" data-sk-bookmarked="addClass:is-bookmarked, Edit bookmark" 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