Mond - gravity as two separate forces?

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It may not display this or other websites correctly.<br />You should upgrade or use an <a href="https://www.google.com/chrome/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">alternative browser</a>.</div> <div class="p-body-main p-body-main--withSidebar "> <div class="p-body-contentCol"></div> <div class="p-body-sidebarCol"></div> <div class="p-body-content"> <div class="p-body-pageContent"> <div class="p-breadcrumbs--parent "> <ul class="p-breadcrumbs " itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/BreadcrumbList"> <li itemprop="itemListElement" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/ListItem"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/" itemprop="item"> <span itemprop="name">Forums</span> </a> <meta itemprop="position" content="1" /> </li> <li itemprop="itemListElement" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/ListItem"> <a href="/#physics.9" itemprop="item"> <span itemprop="name">Physics</span> </a> <meta itemprop="position" content="2" /> </li> <li itemprop="itemListElement" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/ListItem"> <a href="/forums/beyond-the-standard-models.66/" itemprop="item"> <span itemprop="name">Beyond the Standard Models</span> </a> <meta itemprop="position" content="3" /> </li> </ul> </div> <div class="p-body-header"> <div class="p-title "> <h1 class="p-title-value">Mond - gravity as two separate forces? </h1> </div> <div class="p-description"> <ul class="listInline listInline--bullet"> <li> <span data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Level: Intermediate (Undergrad)" ><span class="prefix inter" dir="auto">I</span></span> </li> <li> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-user" aria-hidden="true" title="Thread starter"></i> <span class="u-srOnly">Thread starter</span> <span>Fred Blame</span> </li> <li> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-clock" aria-hidden="true" title="Start date"></i> <span class="u-srOnly">Start date</span> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2023-11-26T03:08:10-0600" data-time="1700989690" data-date-string="Nov 26, 2023" data-time-string="3:08 AM" title="Nov 26, 2023 at 3:08 AM">Nov 26, 2023</time> </li> <li> <dl class="tagList tagList--thread-1057669 "> <dt> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-tags" aria-hidden="true" title="Tags"></i> <span class="u-srOnly">Tags</span> </dt> <dd> <span class="js-tagList"> <a href="/tags/gravity/" data-xf-init="preview-tooltip" data-preview-url="/tags/gravity/preview" class="tagItem tagItem--tag_gravity" dir="auto"> Gravity </a> <a href="/tags/mond/" data-xf-init="preview-tooltip" data-preview-url="/tags/mond/preview" class="tagItem tagItem--tag_mond" dir="auto"> mond </a> </span> </dd> </dl> </li> </ul> </div> </div> <script src="https://www.physicsforums.com/check-for-tex.js" defer></script> <div class="block block--messages" data-xf-init="" data-type="post" data-href="/inline-mod/" data-search-target="*"> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="posts"></span> <div class="block-outer"></div> <div class="block-outer js-threadStatusField"></div> <div class="block-container lbContainer" data-xf-init="lightbox select-to-quote" data-message-selector=".js-post" data-lb-id="thread-1057669" data-lb-universal="0"> <div class="block-body js-replyNewMessageContainer">  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="Fred Blame" data-content="post-6970997" id="js-post-6970997" > <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-6970997"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2023-11-26T03:08:10-0600" data-time="1700989690" data-date-string="Nov 26, 2023" data-time-string="3:08 AM" title="Nov 26, 2023 at 3:08 AM">Nov 26, 2023</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/6970997/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #1 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" > <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><span class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="742811">Fred Blame</span></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>   </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>6</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>0</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-6970997" data-lb-caption-desc="Fred Blame · Nov 26, 2023 at 3:08 AM"> <div class="message-fields message-fields--before"> <dl class="pairs pairs--columns pairs--fixedSmall pairs--customField" data-field="summary"> <dt>TL;DR Summary</dt> <dd>Mond as standard Gravity plus an additional force.</dd> </dl> </div> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div > <div class="bbWrapper">Is it possible that MOND might be standard gravity plus an additional force that is inversely proportional to distance. One that is also a property of matter?<br /> <br /> I ask, because viewing this way begs the questions: If two, then why not more, and if more then perhaps a series with a hope of definition.<br /> <br /> Possible contenders would be nuclear forces and a force that is independent of distance.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> <div class="googleads_fixed"> <script async src="https://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/js/adsbygoogle.js?client=ca-pub-6580726045122001" crossorigin="anonymous"></script>  <ins class="adsbygoogle" style="display:block" data-ad-client="ca-pub-6580726045122001" data-ad-slot="3049969336" data-ad-format="auto" data-full-width-responsive="true"></ins> <script> (adsbygoogle = window.adsbygoogle || []).push({}); </script> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <div class="message-cell message-cell--main" id="post-physorg"> <a href="https://phys.org/physics-news/" target="_blank">Physics news</a> on Phys.org <ul class="phys_items"> <li><a href="https://phys.org/news/2025-02-unexpected-nucleus-prompts-reevaluation-atomic.html" target="_blank">Unexpected shape of lead-208 nucleus prompts reevaluation of atomic nuclei models</a></li> <li><a href="https://phys.org/news/2025-02-scientists-elusive-liquid-transition-deep.html" target="_blank">Scientists map elusive liquid-liquid transition point using deep neural network</a></li> <li><a href="https://phys.org/news/2025-02-links-disparate-pion-reactions-nuclear.html" target="_blank">New calculation links disparate pion reactions in nuclear physics</a></li> </ul> </div> <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="PeroK" data-content="post-6971022" id="js-post-6971022" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/6971022/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/mond-gravity-as-two-separate-forces.1057669/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-6971022"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2023-11-26T05:58:46-0600" data-time="1700999926" data-date-string="Nov 26, 2023" data-time-string="5:58 AM" title="Nov 26, 2023 at 5:58 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Nov 26, 2023</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/6971022/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #2 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/perok.493650/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/perok.493650/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/perok.493650/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="493650" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">PeroK</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-cap" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert with Homework Help"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-graduation-cap" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Homework Helper</span> </div> <div class="post-badge 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class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-6971022" data-lb-caption-desc="PeroK · Nov 26, 2023 at 5:58 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 742811" data-quote="Fred Blame" data-source="post: 6970997" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> Fred Blame said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> Is it possible that MOND might be standard gravity plus an additional force that is inversely proportional to distance. One that is also a property of matter? </div> </div> </blockquote>Lots of things might be possible. You could do a search of the literature on MOND to see whether anyone is reseaching anything like this.<br /> <blockquote data-attributes="member: 742811" data-quote="Fred Blame" data-source="post: 6970997" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> Fred Blame said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> I ask, because viewing this way begs the questions: If two, then why not more, and if more then perhaps a series with a hope of definition. </div> </div> </blockquote>Why not, indeed? But, equally, why?<br /> <blockquote data-attributes="member: 742811" data-quote="Fred Blame" data-source="post: 6970997" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> Fred Blame said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> Possible contenders would be nuclear forces and a force that is independent of distance. </div> </div> </blockquote>That I doubt. In any case, as far as I know, there is no theoretical basis for MOND (and certainly not a quantum mechanical basis). It's a theory designed to fit the data, rather than a fundamental theory in itself.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="1" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList is-active"> <ul class="reactionSummary"> <li><span class="reaction reaction--small reaction--1" data-reaction-id="1"><i aria-hidden="true"></i><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="reaction-sprite js-reaction" alt="Like" title="Like" /></span></li> </ul> <span class="u-srOnly">Likes</span> <bdi>PhDeezNutz</bdi> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="Fred Blame" data-content="post-6971036" id="js-post-6971036" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/6971036/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/mond-gravity-as-two-separate-forces.1057669/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-6971036"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2023-11-26T06:52:33-0600" data-time="1701003153" data-date-string="Nov 26, 2023" data-time-string="6:52 AM" title="Nov 26, 2023 at 6:52 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Nov 26, 2023</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/6971036/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #3 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/fred-blame.742811/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/fred-blame.742811/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><span class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="742811"><span itemprop="name">Fred Blame</span></span></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>   </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>6</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>0</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-6971036" data-lb-caption-desc="Fred Blame · Nov 26, 2023 at 6:52 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper">What I wrote is purely speculative, and unlikely to lead anywhere. However, unlikely is not impossible. So, yes, I doubt too, but doubt should not stop speculation, just conviction. <br /> <br /> As to quantum mechanics, I see no reason to go there until we first understand the forces involved. If MOND is right, then we are really not sure. If exotic dark matter is right, then the same.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> <div class="googleads_fixed"> <script async src="https://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/js/adsbygoogle.js?client=ca-pub-6580726045122001" crossorigin="anonymous"></script>  <ins class="adsbygoogle" style="display:block" data-ad-client="ca-pub-6580726045122001" data-ad-slot="5961342082" data-ad-format="auto" data-full-width-responsive="true"></ins> <script> (adsbygoogle = window.adsbygoogle || []).push({}); </script> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList is-active"> <ul class="reactionSummary"> <li><span class="reaction reaction--small reaction--6" 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"> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2023-11-26T07:18:51-0600" data-time="1701004731" data-date-string="Nov 26, 2023" data-time-string="7:18 AM" title="Nov 26, 2023 at 7:18 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Nov 26, 2023</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/6971039/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #4 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/perok.493650/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/perok.493650/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a 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Member</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-trophy" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="2024 Award Winner"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-trophy" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> 2024 Award</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>28,297</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>19,790</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-6971039" data-lb-caption-desc="PeroK · Nov 26, 2023 at 7:18 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 742811" data-quote="Fred Blame" data-source="post: 6971036" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> Fred Blame said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> What I wrote is purely speculative, and unlikely to lead anywhere. </div> </div> </blockquote>You ought to read the PF rules. Personal speculation is not allowed!</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="1" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList is-active"> <ul class="reactionSummary"> <li><span class="reaction reaction--small reaction--1" data-reaction-id="1"><i aria-hidden="true"></i><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="reaction-sprite js-reaction" alt="Like" title="Like" /></span></li> </ul> <span class="u-srOnly">Likes</span> <bdi>pinball1970</bdi> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="Fred Blame" data-content="post-6971045" id="js-post-6971045" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/6971045/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/mond-gravity-as-two-separate-forces.1057669/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-6971045"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2023-11-26T08:24:47-0600" data-time="1701008687" data-date-string="Nov 26, 2023" data-time-string="8:24 AM" title="Nov 26, 2023 at 8:24 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Nov 26, 2023</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/6971045/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #5 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/fred-blame.742811/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/fred-blame.742811/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><span class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="742811"><span itemprop="name">Fred Blame</span></span></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>   </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>6</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>0</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-6971045" data-lb-caption-desc="Fred Blame · Nov 26, 2023 at 8:24 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper">It's speculation, but not personal speculation. It a genuine question as to what is possible, (which you have answered in the affirmative.) plus an explanation as to why I asked. <br /> <br /> I honestly expect somebody to ether explain why MOND can't reasonably be though of as two forces, or tell me where to find articles on the topic. Isn't that why this forum is here, so that we can get direction?<br /> <br /> Finally, I can think of a good reason for it to be wrong, I just don't know if it's true - That there is a better fit to the evidence if the component of standard gravity is actually phased out as the modified gravity takes over.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="Fra" data-content="post-6971046" id="js-post-6971046" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/6971046/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/mond-gravity-as-two-separate-forces.1057669/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-6971046"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2023-11-26T08:45:00-0600" data-time="1701009900" data-date-string="Nov 26, 2023" data-time-string="8:45 AM" title="Nov 26, 2023 at 8:45 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Nov 26, 2023</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/6971046/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #6 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/fra.76451/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/fra.76451/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><span class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="76451"><span itemprop="name">Fra</span></span></span>     </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>4,236</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>653</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-6971046" data-lb-caption-desc="Fra · Nov 26, 2023 at 8:45 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 742811" data-quote="Fred Blame" data-source="post: 6971045" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> Fred Blame said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> It's speculation, but not personal speculation. </div> </div> </blockquote>I personally don't start pondering in this end of things so I have no meaningful contextual comments, but fwiw here is at least and arxiv paper entertaining some of ideas you mention, but I don't have any meaningfull comments on their approach. <br /> <br /> <h3>An Alternative to Particle Dark Matter</h3>"We propose an alternative to particle dark matter that <b>borrows ingredients of MOdified Newtonian Dynamics (MOND) while adding new key components</b>. The first new feature is a dark matter fluid, in the form of a scalar field with small equation of state and sound speed. This component is critical in reproducing the success of cold dark matter for the expansion history and the growth of linear perturbations, but does not cluster significantly on non-linear scales. Instead, the missing mass problem on non-linear scales is addressed by a modification of the gravitational force law. The force law approximates MOND at large and intermediate accelerations, and therefore reproduces the empirical success of MOND at fitting galactic rotation curves. At ultra-low accelerations, the force law reverts to an inverse-square-law, albeit with a larger Newton's constant. This latter regime is important in galaxy clusters and is consistent with their observed isothermal profiles, provided the characteristic acceleration scale of MOND is mildly varying with scale or mass, such that it is ~12 times higher in clusters than in galaxies. We present an explicit relativistic theory in terms of two scalar fields. The first scalar field is governed by a Dirac-Born-Infeld action and behaves as a dark matter fluid on large scales. The second scalar field also has single-derivative interactions and mediates a<b> fifth force that modifies gravity on non-linear scales</b>. Both scalars are coupled to matter via an effective metric that depends locally on the fields. The form of this effective metric implies the equality of the two scalar gravitational potentials, which ensures that lensing and dynamical mass estimates agree. Further work is needed in order to make both the acceleration scale of MOND and the fraction at which gravity reverts to an inverse-square law explicitly dynamical quantities, varying with scale or mass. "<br /> <br /> -- <a href="https://arxiv.org/abs/1409.0012" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">https://arxiv.org/abs/1409.0012</a><br /> <br /> /Fredrik</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="Fred Blame" data-content="post-6971050" id="js-post-6971050" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/6971050/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/mond-gravity-as-two-separate-forces.1057669/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-6971050"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2023-11-26T09:03:45-0600" data-time="1701011025" data-date-string="Nov 26, 2023" data-time-string="9:03 AM" title="Nov 26, 2023 at 9:03 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Nov 26, 2023</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/6971050/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #7 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/fred-blame.742811/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/fred-blame.742811/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><span class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="742811"><span itemprop="name">Fred Blame</span></span></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>   </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>6</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>0</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-6971050" data-lb-caption-desc="Fred Blame · Nov 26, 2023 at 9:03 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper">Fra. My thanks. <br /> <br /> I suppose my original question was badly written. Perhaps I might have asked if breaking the force into standard gravity plus modified gravity made the maths more, or less elegant. <br /> <br /> If that my first reaction is right, that article suggests elegance is in no way involved, which might be a good point to give up. At least with that particular approach.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="Vanadium 50" data-content="post-6971094" id="js-post-6971094" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/6971094/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/mond-gravity-as-two-separate-forces.1057669/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-6971094"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2023-11-26T12:12:48-0600" data-time="1701022368" data-date-string="Nov 26, 2023" data-time-string="12:12 PM" title="Nov 26, 2023 at 12:12 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Nov 26, 2023</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/6971094/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #8 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/vanadium-50.110252/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/vanadium-50.110252/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/vanadium-50.110252/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="110252" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">Vanadium 50</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-shield" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Retired Mentor"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-shield" aria-hidden="true" style="font-size:12px;color:#990033;"></i><span> Staff Emeritus</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-book" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Academia"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-book" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Education Advisor</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>35,001</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>21,677</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-6971094" data-lb-caption-desc="Vanadium 50 · Nov 26, 2023 at 12:12 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper">Why stop at two? Why not ten? I can always add, subtract and rearrange terms.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="1" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList is-active"> <ul class="reactionSummary"> <li><span class="reaction reaction--small reaction--1" data-reaction-id="1"><i aria-hidden="true"></i><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="reaction-sprite js-reaction" alt="Like" title="Like" /></span></li> </ul> <span class="u-srOnly">Likes</span> <bdi>PhDeezNutz</bdi> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="Fred Blame" data-content="post-6971178" id="js-post-6971178" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/6971178/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/mond-gravity-as-two-separate-forces.1057669/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-6971178"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2023-11-26T16:36:01-0600" data-time="1701038161" data-date-string="Nov 26, 2023" data-time-string="4:36 PM" title="Nov 26, 2023 at 4:36 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Nov 26, 2023</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/6971178/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #9 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/fred-blame.742811/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/fred-blame.742811/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><span class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="742811"><span itemprop="name">Fred Blame</span></span></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>   </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>6</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>0</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-6971178" data-lb-caption-desc="Fred Blame · Nov 26, 2023 at 4:36 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper">Vanadium. Why? Because there are always an infinite number of ways to explain anything. The trick is to find the simple that explains much. By all means stop at ten....if those ten equations sum to less complexity than the original one. But let's face facts, they won't. With the original "standard gravity plus one fudge factor" two just might.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="Vanadium 50" data-content="post-6971191" id="js-post-6971191" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/6971191/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/mond-gravity-as-two-separate-forces.1057669/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-6971191"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2023-11-26T17:42:45-0600" data-time="1701042165" data-date-string="Nov 26, 2023" data-time-string="5:42 PM" title="Nov 26, 2023 at 5:42 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Nov 26, 2023</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/6971191/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #10 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/vanadium-50.110252/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/vanadium-50.110252/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/vanadium-50.110252/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="110252" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">Vanadium 50</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-shield" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Retired Mentor"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-shield" aria-hidden="true" style="font-size:12px;color:#990033;"></i><span> Staff Emeritus</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-book" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Academia"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-book" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Education Advisor</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>35,001</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>21,677</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-6971191" data-lb-caption-desc="Vanadium 50 · Nov 26, 2023 at 5:42 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper">This sounds a lot more like "I like it better" than "it explains something". <br /> <br /> Of course you are free to like it better, but you can surely appreciate why that is an unconvincing argument.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="Fred Blame" data-content="post-6971255" id="js-post-6971255" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/6971255/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/mond-gravity-as-two-separate-forces.1057669/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-6971255"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2023-11-27T02:58:14-0600" data-time="1701075494" data-date-string="Nov 27, 2023" data-time-string="2:58 AM" title="Nov 27, 2023 at 2:58 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Nov 27, 2023</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/6971255/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #11 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/fred-blame.742811/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/fred-blame.742811/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><span class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="742811"><span itemprop="name">Fred Blame</span></span></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>   </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>6</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>0</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-6971255" data-lb-caption-desc="Fred Blame · Nov 27, 2023 at 2:58 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper">Vanadium<br /> <br /> Not really. If the choice is between a simple explanation and a complex one that, on examination says exactly the same thing... I would imagine that most would be convinced to go for simple. <br /> <br /> Not that this is the case with the problem that standard gravity and observed mass don't alone explain what is going on with galaxies. There we have a choice of fudge factors, and Occam's razor is our best guide.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="ohwilleke" data-content="post-6971277" id="js-post-6971277" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/6971277/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/mond-gravity-as-two-separate-forces.1057669/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-6971277"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2023-11-27T04:32:32-0600" data-time="1701081152" data-date-string="Nov 27, 2023" data-time-string="4:32 AM" title="Nov 27, 2023 at 4:32 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Nov 27, 2023</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/6971277/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #12 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/ohwilleke.19562/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/ohwilleke.19562/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><span class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="19562"><span itemprop="name">ohwilleke</span></span></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>2,578</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>1,530</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-6971277" data-lb-caption-desc="ohwilleke · Nov 27, 2023 at 4:32 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 742811" data-quote="Fred Blame" data-source="post: 6970997" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> Fred Blame said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> <b>TL;DR Summary:</b> Mond as standard Gravity plus an additional force.<br /> <br /> Is it possible that MOND might be standard gravity plus an additional force that is inversely proportional to distance. One that is also a property of matter?<br /> <br /> I ask, because viewing this way begs the questions: If two, then why not more, and if more then perhaps a series with a hope of definition.<br /> <br /> Possible contenders would be nuclear forces and a force that is independent of distance. </div> </div> </blockquote>Since MOND is proportional to mass (and really to mass-energy) in the same way as gravity is, any formulation of MOND as a two force system could be restated as a more complicated equation for gravity instead. It is a modification of gravity (except in its inertia modification formulation) rather than an additional force.<br /> <br /> There are dark matter particle theories that have either a new force only between dark matter particles, or a new force between dark matter and ordinary matter in addition to gravity, or both.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="Vanadium 50" data-content="post-6971314" id="js-post-6971314" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/6971314/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/mond-gravity-as-two-separate-forces.1057669/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-6971314"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2023-11-27T08:29:31-0600" data-time="1701095371" data-date-string="Nov 27, 2023" data-time-string="8:29 AM" title="Nov 27, 2023 at 8:29 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Nov 27, 2023</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/6971314/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #13 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/vanadium-50.110252/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/vanadium-50.110252/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/vanadium-50.110252/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="110252" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">Vanadium 50</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-shield" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Retired Mentor"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-shield" aria-hidden="true" style="font-size:12px;color:#990033;"></i><span> Staff Emeritus</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-book" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Academia"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-book" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Education Advisor</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>35,001</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>21,677</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-6971314" data-lb-caption-desc="Vanadium 50 · Nov 27, 2023 at 8:29 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 742811" data-quote="Fred Blame" data-source="post: 6971255" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> Fred Blame said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> f the choice is between a simple explanation and a complex one that, on examination says exactly the same thing... I would imagine that most would be convinced to go for simple. </div> </div> </blockquote>We learned A in school. The data seems to support B at least in one type of system. Deciding that there are two forces, A and [B-A] looks to me to be no simpler than one force B.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="1" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList is-active"> <ul class="reactionSummary"> <li><span class="reaction reaction--small reaction--1" data-reaction-id="1"><i aria-hidden="true"></i><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="reaction-sprite js-reaction" alt="Like" title="Like" /></span></li> </ul> <span class="u-srOnly">Likes</span> <bdi>ohwilleke</bdi> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> <script> 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<dd>2K</dd> </dl> </div> </div> <div class="structItem structItem--thread is-prefix91 js-inlineModContainer js-threadListItem-1050848" data-author="kodama"> <div class="structItem-cell structItem-cell--main" data-xf-init="touch-proxy"> <div class="structItem-title"> <span class="prefix inter" dir="auto">I</span> <a href="/threads/deur-gravitational-self-interaction-doesnt-explain-galaxy-rotation-curves.1050848/" class="" data-tp-primary="on" data-xf-init="preview-tooltip" data-preview-url="/threads/deur-gravitational-self-interaction-doesnt-explain-galaxy-rotation-curves.1050848/preview">Deur Gravitational self-interaction Doesn't Explain Galaxy Rotation Curves</a> </div> <div class="structItem-minor"> <ul class="structItem-parts"> <li class="structItem-startDate"><time class="structItem-latestDate u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2023-06-05T10:52:32-0500" data-time="1685980352" data-date-string="Jun 5, 2023" data-time-string="10:52 AM" title="Jun 5, 2023 at 10:52 AM">Jun 5, 2023</time></li>  </ul> <span class="structItem-pageJump"> <a href="/threads/deur-gravitational-self-interaction-doesnt-explain-galaxy-rotation-curves.1050848/page-3">3</a> </span> <ul class="structItem-parts"> </ul> </div> </div> <div class="structItem-cell structItem-cell--meta" title="First message reaction score: 1"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt>Replies</dt> <dd>72</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified structItem-minor"> <dt>Views</dt> <dd>8K</dd> </dl> </div> </div> <div class="structItem structItem--thread is-prefix91 is-locked js-inlineModContainer js-threadListItem-899698" data-author="kodama"> <div class="structItem-cell structItem-cell--main" data-xf-init="touch-proxy"> <div class="structItem-title"> <span class="prefix inter" dir="auto">I</span> <a href="/threads/dark-matter-and-acoustic-peaks-in-the-cmb.899698/" class="" data-tp-primary="on" data-xf-init="preview-tooltip" data-preview-url="/threads/dark-matter-and-acoustic-peaks-in-the-cmb.899698/preview">Dark matter and acoustic peaks in the CMB</a> </div> <div class="structItem-minor"> <ul class="structItem-parts"> <li class="structItem-startDate"><time class="structItem-latestDate u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2017-01-11T21:00:45-0600" data-time="1484190045" data-date-string="Jan 11, 2017" data-time-string="9:00 PM" title="Jan 11, 2017 at 9:00 PM">Jan 11, 2017</time></li>  </ul> <ul class="structItem-parts"> </ul> </div> </div> <div class="structItem-cell structItem-cell--meta" title="First message reaction score: 0"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt>Replies</dt> <dd>4</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified structItem-minor"> <dt>Views</dt> <dd>2K</dd> </dl> </div> </div> <div class="structItem structItem--thread is-prefix91 is-locked js-inlineModContainer js-threadListItem-1064864" data-author="kodama"> <div class="structItem-cell structItem-cell--main" data-xf-init="touch-proxy"> <div class="structItem-title"> <span class="prefix inter" dir="auto">I</span> <a href="/threads/the-standard-model-from-loop-quantum-gravity-via-spinors-octonions.1064864/" class="" data-tp-primary="on" data-xf-init="preview-tooltip" data-preview-url="/threads/the-standard-model-from-loop-quantum-gravity-via-spinors-octonions.1064864/preview">The standard model from loop quantum gravity via spinors octonions</a> </div> <div class="structItem-minor"> <ul class="structItem-parts"> <li class="structItem-startDate"><time class="structItem-latestDate u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-10-08T22:13:35-0500" data-time="1728443615" data-date-string="Oct 8, 2024" data-time-string="10:13 PM" title="Oct 8, 2024 at 10:13 PM">Oct 8, 2024</time></li>  </ul> <ul class="structItem-parts"> </ul> </div> </div> <div class="structItem-cell structItem-cell--meta" title="First message reaction score: 0"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt>Replies</dt> <dd>26</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified structItem-minor"> <dt>Views</dt> <dd>2K</dd> </dl> </div> </div> <div class="structItem structItem--thread is-prefix91 is-locked js-inlineModContainer js-threadListItem-1017359" data-author="ohwilleke"> <div class="structItem-cell structItem-cell--main" data-xf-init="touch-proxy"> <div class="structItem-title"> <span class="prefix inter" dir="auto">I</span> <a href="/threads/can-core-theory-be-derived-from-nine-lines.1017359/" class="" data-tp-primary="on" data-xf-init="preview-tooltip" data-preview-url="/threads/can-core-theory-be-derived-from-nine-lines.1017359/preview">Can Core Theory Be Derived From Nine Lines?</a> </div> <div class="structItem-minor"> <ul class="structItem-parts"> <li class="structItem-startDate"><time class="structItem-latestDate u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2022-08-04T16:33:39-0500" data-time="1659648819" data-date-string="Aug 4, 2022" data-time-string="4:33 PM" title="Aug 4, 2022 at 4:33 PM">Aug 4, 2022</time></li>  </ul> <ul class="structItem-parts"> </ul> </div> </div> <div class="structItem-cell structItem-cell--meta" title="First message reaction score: 1"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt>Replies</dt> <dd>6</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified structItem-minor"> <dt>Views</dt> <dd>2K</dd> </dl> </div> </div> <div class="structItem structItem--thread is-prefix91 is-locked js-inlineModContainer js-threadListItem-1061460" data-author="kodama"> <div class="structItem-cell structItem-cell--main" data-xf-init="touch-proxy"> <div class="structItem-title"> <span class="prefix inter" dir="auto">I</span> <a href="/threads/two-recent-tests-of-loop-quantum-gravity-theory.1061460/" class="" data-tp-primary="on" data-xf-init="preview-tooltip" data-preview-url="/threads/two-recent-tests-of-loop-quantum-gravity-theory.1061460/preview">Two recent tests of loop quantum gravity theory</a> </div> <div class="structItem-minor"> <ul class="structItem-parts"> <li class="structItem-startDate"><time class="structItem-latestDate u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2024-09-13T17:22:25-0500" data-time="1726266145" data-date-string="Sep 13, 2024" data-time-string="5:22 PM" title="Sep 13, 2024 at 5:22 PM">Sep 13, 2024</time></li>  </ul> <ul class="structItem-parts"> </ul> </div> </div> <div class="structItem-cell structItem-cell--meta" title="First message reaction score: 0"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt>Replies</dt> <dd>15</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified structItem-minor"> <dt>Views</dt> <dd>3K</dd> </dl> </div> </div> <div class="structItem structItem--thread is-prefix92 js-inlineModContainer js-threadListItem-1061652" data-author="mitchell porter"> <div class="structItem-cell structItem-cell--main" data-xf-init="touch-proxy"> <div class="structItem-title"> <span class="prefix advanced" dir="auto">A</span> <a href="/threads/higgs-inflation-and-quadratic-gravity.1061652/" class="" data-tp-primary="on" data-xf-init="preview-tooltip" data-preview-url="/threads/higgs-inflation-and-quadratic-gravity.1061652/preview">Higgs inflation and quadratic gravity</a> </div> <div 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Are you sure you want to submit this form?", attach: "Attach files", rich_text_box: "Rich text box", close: "Close", link_copied_to_clipboard: "Link copied to clipboard.", text_copied_to_clipboard: "Text copied to clipboard.", loading: "Loading…", you_have_exceeded_maximum_number_of_selectable_items: "You have exceeded the maximum number of selectable items.", processing: "Processing", 'processing...': "Processing…", showing_x_of_y_items: "Showing {count} of {total} items", showing_all_items: "Showing all items", no_items_to_display: "No items to display", number_button_up: "Increase", number_button_down: "Decrease", push_enable_notification_title: "Push notifications enabled successfully at Physics Forums: Science Discussion, Homework Help, Articles", push_enable_notification_body: "Thank you for enabling push notifications!", pull_down_to_refresh: "Pull down to refresh", release_to_refresh: "Release to refresh", refreshing: "Refreshing…" }); </script> <form style="display:none" hidden="hidden"> <input type="text" name="_xfClientLoadTime" value="" id="_xfClientLoadTime" title="_xfClientLoadTime" tabindex="-1" /> </form>  <script type="application/ld+json"> { "@context": "https://schema.org", "@type": "WebPage", "url": "https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/mond-gravity-as-two-separate-forces.1057669/", "mainEntity": { "@type": "DiscussionForumPosting", "@id": "https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/mond-gravity-as-two-separate-forces.1057669/", "headline": "Mond - gravity as two separate forces?", "datePublished": "2023-11-26T09:08:10+00:00", "keywords": "Gravity, mond", "url": "https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/mond-gravity-as-two-separate-forces.1057669/", "articleSection": "Beyond the Standard Models", "author": { "@type": "Person", "@id": "https://www.physicsforums.com/members/fred-blame.742811/", "name": "Fred Blame", "url": "https://www.physicsforums.com/members/fred-blame.742811/" }, "interactionStatistic": [ { "@type": "InteractionCounter", "interactionType": "https://schema.org/ViewAction", "userInteractionCount": 2500 }, { "@type": "InteractionCounter", "interactionType": "https://schema.org/CommentAction", "userInteractionCount": 12 }, { "@type": "InteractionCounter", "interactionType": "https://schema.org/LikeAction", "userInteractionCount": 0 } ], "articleBody": "Is it possible that MOND might be standard gravity plus an additional force that is inversely proportional to distance. One that is also a property of matter?\n\nI ask, because viewing this way begs the questions: If two, then why not more, and if more then perhaps a series with a hope of definition.\n\nPossible contenders would be nuclear forces and a force that is independent of distance." }, "publisher": { "@type": "Organization", "name": "Physics Forums: Science Discussion, Homework Help, Articles", "alternateName": "Physics Forums", "description": "Join Physics Forums, where students, scientists, and enthusiasts come together to explore and discuss the current understanding and practice of various scientific fields.", "url": "https://www.physicsforums.com", "logo": "https://www.physicsforums.com/styles/physicsforums/images/physics-forums-logo-og.png" } } </script> <script type="text/javascript" src="https://www.physicsforums.com/copyright.js" defer></script> <script> function parseNewPost(postid) { var newpost = document.getElementById("js-post-" + postid), npa = [newpost]; MathJax.typeset(npa); } function parsePreview() { var preview = document.getElementsByClassName("xfPreview"); MathJax.typeset(preview); } function parseNewConversationPost(postid) { var newpost = document.getElementsByClassName("convMessage-" + postid); MathJax.typeset(newpost); } function parseNewProfilePost(postid) { var newpost = document.getElementById("js-profilePost-" + postid), npa = [newpost]; MathJax.typeset(npa); } function parseTooltip() { MathJax.typeset(); } </script> </body> </html>

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Mond - gravity as two separate forces?