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</li> <li id="toc-Dysgenics" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Dysgenics"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">5</span> <span>Dysgenics</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Dysgenics-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Kannada_literature" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Kannada_literature"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">6</span> <span>Kannada literature</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">19 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Kannada_literature-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-POV-pushing_and_lies_on_Arsenicum_album" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#POV-pushing_and_lies_on_Arsenicum_album"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">7</span> <span>POV-pushing and lies on Arsenicum album</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-POV-pushing_and_lies_on_Arsenicum_album-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Announcement_of_Fringe-theory_related_Arbcom_case" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Announcement_of_Fringe-theory_related_Arbcom_case"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">8</span> <span>Announcement of Fringe-theory related Arbcom case</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Announcement_of_Fringe-theory_related_Arbcom_case-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-L._Brent_Bozell_III" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#L._Brent_Bozell_III"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">9</span> <span>L. Brent Bozell III</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-L._Brent_Bozell_III-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-physiological_effects_of_fasting" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#physiological_effects_of_fasting"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">10</span> <span>physiological effects of fasting</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-physiological_effects_of_fasting-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-User:Wikidas" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#User:Wikidas"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">11</span> <span>User:Wikidas</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">51 comments</span> <button aria-controls="toc-User:Wikidas-sublist" class="cdx-button cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only vector-toc-toggle"> <span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-expand"></span> <span>Toggle User:Wikidas subsection</span> </button> <ul id="toc-User:Wikidas-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> <li id="toc-Why_the_vedas?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Why_the_vedas?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">11.1</span> <span>Why the vedas?</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Why_the_vedas?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Madhvacharya_quote" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Madhvacharya_quote"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">11.2</span> <span>Madhvacharya quote</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Madhvacharya_quote-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-More" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#More"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">11.3</span> <span>More</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-More-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Pervasive" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Pervasive"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">11.4</span> <span>Pervasive</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Pervasive-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Alan_Bond_(rocket_developer)" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Alan_Bond_(rocket_developer)"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">12</span> <span>Alan Bond (rocket developer)</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Alan_Bond_(rocket_developer)-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Dean_Radin" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Dean_Radin"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">13</span> <span>Dean Radin</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Dean_Radin-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Uighurs" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Uighurs"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">14</span> <span>Uighurs</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Uighurs-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Robert_F._Kennedy_assassination" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Robert_F._Kennedy_assassination"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">15</span> <span>Robert F. Kennedy assassination</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Robert_F._Kennedy_assassination-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Laz" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Laz"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">16</span> <span>Laz</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Laz-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Atlas_Orthogonal_Chiropractic_Technique" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Atlas_Orthogonal_Chiropractic_Technique"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">17</span> <span>Atlas Orthogonal Chiropractic Technique</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">5 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Atlas_Orthogonal_Chiropractic_Technique-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-AIDS_reappraisal_redux" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#AIDS_reappraisal_redux"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">18</span> <span>AIDS reappraisal redux</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-AIDS_reappraisal_redux-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-"$ETHNIC_warfare"" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#"$ETHNIC_warfare""> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">19</span> <span>"$ETHNIC warfare"</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-"$ETHNIC_warfare"-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Armenian_update" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Armenian_update"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">20</span> <span>Armenian update</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">15 comments</span> <button aria-controls="toc-Armenian_update-sublist" class="cdx-button cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only vector-toc-toggle"> <span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-expand"></span> <span>Toggle Armenian update subsection</span> </button> <ul id="toc-Armenian_update-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> <li id="toc-Categories" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Categories"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">20.1</span> <span>Categories</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Categories-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-More_Amazons" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#More_Amazons"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">20.2</span> <span>More Amazons</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-More_Amazons-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-The_origins_of_the_Hyksos_-_more_Ararat_arev" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#The_origins_of_the_Hyksos_-_more_Ararat_arev"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">21</span> <span>The origins of the Hyksos - more Ararat arev</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">11 comments</span> <ul id="toc-The_origins_of_the_Hyksos_-_more_Ararat_arev-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Input_requested_at_Dysgenics" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Input_requested_at_Dysgenics"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">22</span> <span>Input requested at Dysgenics</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Input_requested_at_Dysgenics-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Particular_attribution_at_parapsychology" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Particular_attribution_at_parapsychology"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">23</span> <span>Particular attribution at parapsychology</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Particular_attribution_at_parapsychology-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-http://phoenicia.org_as_a_source" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#http://phoenicia.org_as_a_source"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">24</span> <span>http://phoenicia.org as a source</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-http://phoenicia.org_as_a_source-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Pseudoscience_and_alternative_science" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Pseudoscience_and_alternative_science"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">25</span> <span>Pseudoscience and alternative science</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Pseudoscience_and_alternative_science-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-UN_Security_Council_Resolutions:_Are_they_binding_or_not?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#UN_Security_Council_Resolutions:_Are_they_binding_or_not?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">26</span> <span>UN Security Council Resolutions: Are they binding or not?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">18 comments</span> <ul id="toc-UN_Security_Council_Resolutions:_Are_they_binding_or_not?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Mondo_MOND_madness" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Mondo_MOND_madness"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">27</span> <span>Mondo MOND madness</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">10 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Mondo_MOND_madness-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Barry_Fell" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Barry_Fell"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">28</span> <span>Barry Fell</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">6 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Barry_Fell-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Racism_in_association_football#Poland" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Racism_in_association_football#Poland"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">29</span> <span>Racism_in_association_football#Poland</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Racism_in_association_football#Poland-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Dorje_Shugden" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Dorje_Shugden"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">30</span> <span>Dorje Shugden</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Dorje_Shugden-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Reddi_(talk_·_contribs)" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Reddi_(talk_·_contribs)"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">31</span> <span>Reddi (talk <b>·</b> contribs)</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">7 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Reddi_(talk_·_contribs)-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Centrifugal_force" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Centrifugal_force"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">32</span> <span>Centrifugal force</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">13 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Centrifugal_force-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-New_Chronology_(Fomenko)" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#New_Chronology_(Fomenko)"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">33</span> <span>New Chronology (Fomenko)‎</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-New_Chronology_(Fomenko)-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Sangreal_Sodality" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Sangreal_Sodality"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">34</span> <span>Sangreal Sodality</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">6 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Sangreal_Sodality-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Is_this_distortion_of_a_source_(reddi_again)?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Is_this_distortion_of_a_source_(reddi_again)?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">35</span> <span>Is this distortion of a source (reddi again)?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Is_this_distortion_of_a_source_(reddi_again)?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Rokus_redivivus" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Rokus_redivivus"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">36</span> <span>Rokus redivivus</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Rokus_redivivus-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Hermetism_template" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Hermetism_template"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">37</span> <span>Hermetism template</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Hermetism_template-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Child_Sexual_Abuse" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Child_Sexual_Abuse"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">38</span> <span>Child Sexual Abuse</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">58 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Child_Sexual_Abuse-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Oera_Linda_and_associated_stubs" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Oera_Linda_and_associated_stubs"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">39</span> <span>Oera Linda and associated stubs</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Oera_Linda_and_associated_stubs-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Pungent_vegetables_give_you_anxiety." class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Pungent_vegetables_give_you_anxiety."> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">40</span> <span>Pungent vegetables give you anxiety.</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Pungent_vegetables_give_you_anxiety.-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Lead_line_of_feminism" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Lead_line_of_feminism"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">41</span> <span>Lead line of feminism</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Lead_line_of_feminism-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Debate_at_WT:V" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Debate_at_WT:V"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">42</span> <span>Debate at WT:V</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Debate_at_WT:V-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Prem_Rawat" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Prem_Rawat"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">43</span> <span>Prem Rawat</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">19 comments</span> <button aria-controls="toc-Prem_Rawat-sublist" class="cdx-button cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only vector-toc-toggle"> <span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-expand"></span> <span>Toggle Prem Rawat subsection</span> </button> <ul id="toc-Prem_Rawat-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> <li id="toc-Differences_in_perception" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Differences_in_perception"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">43.1</span> <span>Differences in perception</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Differences_in_perception-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> <li id="toc-Cultural_differences_US-Europe" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-3"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Cultural_differences_US-Europe"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">43.1.1</span> <span>Cultural differences US-Europe</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Cultural_differences_US-Europe-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Crossing_the_line" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-3"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Crossing_the_line"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">43.1.2</span> <span>Crossing the line</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Crossing_the_line-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Conclusions" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-3"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Conclusions"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">43.1.3</span> <span>Conclusions</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Conclusions-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Comments" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-3"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Comments"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">43.1.4</span> <span>Comments</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Comments-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Take_back_to_Criticism_of_Prem_Rawat?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Take_back_to_Criticism_of_Prem_Rawat?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">43.2</span> <span>Take back to Criticism of Prem Rawat?</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Take_back_to_Criticism_of_Prem_Rawat?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Stalin_apologist" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Stalin_apologist"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">44</span> <span>Stalin apologist</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">9 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Stalin_apologist-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Benjamin_Creme" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Benjamin_Creme"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span 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srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/60px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/80px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="200" data-file-height="200"/></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text" style="text-align:center">This is an <b><a href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page" title="Help:Archiving a talk page">archive</a></b> of past discussions on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories">Wikipedia:Fringe theories</a>. <b>Do not edit the contents of this page.</b> If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories">current main page</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table> <table style="text-align:center;margin:0 auto 0.5em;max-width:50em;width:100%;width:-moz-available;width:-webkit-fill-available;width:stretch"><tbody><tr><td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_1" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 1">Archive 1</a></td><td>←</td><td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_3" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 3">Archive 3</a></td><td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_4" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 4">Archive 4</a></td><td><span style="font-size:115%;"><a class="mw-selflink selflink">Archive 5</a></span></td><td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_6" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 6">Archive 6</a></td><td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_7" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 7">Archive 7</a></td><td>→</td><td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_10" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 10">Archive 10</a></td></tr></tbody></table> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Egyptians" data-mw-thread-id="h-Egyptians-2008-04-10T08:43:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Egyptians-2008-04-10T08:43:00.000Z"></span><a href="/wiki/Egyptians" title="Egyptians">Egyptians</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Egyptians-2008-04-10T08:43:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-10T08:43:00.000Z-Egyptians"></span>We get some standard, but apparently rather severe, nationalist <a href="/wiki/Antiquity_frenzy" class="mw-redirect" title="Antiquity frenzy">antiquity frenzy</a> at this article. More eyes are welcome. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-10T08:43:00.000Z-Egyptians" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:43, 10 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-10T08:43:00.000Z-Egyptians"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-10T08:43:00.000Z-Egyptians"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-10T09:08:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-10T08:43:00.000Z"></span>whoah, a <i>bad</i> case. Some admin needs to chastise <a href="/wiki/User:Tammoor" title="User:Tammoor">Tammoor</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tammoor&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Tammoor (page does not exist)">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Tammoor" title="Special:Contributions/Tammoor">contribs</a>) a little bit, and the responsible party appears to be <a href="/wiki/User:Zerida" title="User:Zerida">Zerida</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Zerida" title="User talk:Zerida">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Zerida" title="Special:Contributions/Zerida">contribs</a>), who already began the standard procedure of outing my nefarious history of ... cleaning up articles affected by nationalist nonsense. I have to be off anyway, but it would also be nice if I didn't have to fix this all by myself. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-10T09:08:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-10T08:43:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:08, 10 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-10T09:08:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-10T08:43:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-10T09:08:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-10T08:43:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Relata_refero-2008-04-10T09:43:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-10T08:43:00.000Z"></span>On it. --<span style="font-family:Georgia"><a href="/wiki/User:Relata_refero" title="User:Relata refero">Relata refero</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Relata_refero" title="User talk:Relata refero">disp.</a>)</span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Relata_refero-2008-04-10T09:43:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-10T08:43:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:43, 10 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Relata_refero-2008-04-10T09:43:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-10T08:43:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Relata_refero-2008-04-10T09:43:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-10T08:43:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moreschi-2008-04-10T20:20:00.000Z-Relata_refero-2008-04-10T09:43:00.000Z"></span>Also <a href="/wiki/User:Bayoumi" title="User:Bayoumi">Bayoumi</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Bayoumi&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Bayoumi (page does not exist)">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Bayoumi" title="Special:Contributions/Bayoumi">contribs</a>). We currently have duplicating material at <a href="/wiki/Egypt" title="Egypt">Egypt</a> and <a href="/wiki/Egyptians" title="Egyptians">Egyptians</a>. The length of the identity section at "Egypt" is probably unncessary. It should be cut down to one paragraph with a link to "Egyptians" for further reading. <a href="/wiki/User:Moreschi" title="User:Moreschi">Moreschi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moreschi" title="User talk:Moreschi">talk</a>) (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Folantin/Userspace_Folantin5&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin5 (page does not exist)">debate</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Moreschi-2008-04-10T20:20:00.000Z-Relata_refero-2008-04-10T09:43:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:20, 10 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moreschi-2008-04-10T20:20:00.000Z-Relata_refero-2008-04-10T09:43:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moreschi-2008-04-10T20:20:00.000Z-Relata_refero-2008-04-10T09:43:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-11T09:57:00.000Z-Egyptians"></span>yes -- we need to be clear on the scope of the <a href="/wiki/Egyptians" title="Egyptians">Egyptians</a> article. There are several possibilities, but the article needs to be clear about it. It cannot announce one thing and then discuss another. The page could <i>also</i> be a disambiguation page between <a href="/wiki/Demographics_of_Egypt" title="Demographics of Egypt">Demographics of Egypt</a>, <a href="/wiki/Ancient_Egyptians" class="mw-redirect" title="Ancient Egyptians">Ancient Egyptians</a> (<a href="/wiki/History_of_Ancient_Egypt" class="mw-redirect" title="History of Ancient Egypt">History of Ancient Egypt</a>) and <a href="/wiki/Copts" title="Copts">Copts</a>. I am not saying it needs to be that, but these are the <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Main" title="Template:Main">main</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> articles it needs to accommodate. The "Identity" section I find more at home in an <a href="/wiki/Egyptians" title="Egyptians">Egyptians</a> article than in <a href="/wiki/Egypt" title="Egypt">Egypt</a>, the article on the country. I created a <a href="/wiki/National_identity_of_Egyptians" class="mw-redirect" title="National identity of Egyptians">National identity of Egyptians</a> redirect. This can be a section redirect to wherever the topic is addressed, or even be made a standalone article. The <a href="/wiki/Pharaonism" title="Pharaonism">Pharaonism</a> substub probably also needs redirection. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-11T09:57:00.000Z-Egyptians" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:57, 11 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-11T09:57:00.000Z-Egyptians"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-11T09:57:00.000Z-Egyptians"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T08:03:00.000Z-Egyptians"></span>no improvement yet, responsible user insists on ignoring the issue and (predictably) is trying to politick his way out of it by making noise about "personal attacks". Help, please? --<a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T08:03:00.000Z-Egyptians" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:03, 16 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T08:03:00.000Z-Egyptians"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T08:03:00.000Z-Egyptians"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Relata_refero-2008-04-16T13:02:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T08:03:00.000Z"></span>Sorry, I got sidetracked to <a href="/wiki/Greeks" title="Greeks">Greeks</a>. Will return and have a look shortly. --<span style="font-family:Georgia"><a href="/wiki/User:Relata_refero" title="User:Relata refero">Relata refero</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Relata_refero" title="User talk:Relata refero">disp.</a>)</span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Relata_refero-2008-04-16T13:02:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T08:03:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:02, 16 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Relata_refero-2008-04-16T13:02:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T08:03:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Relata_refero-2008-04-16T13:02:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T08:03:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Theosophy" data-mw-thread-id="h-Theosophy-2008-04-14T23:08:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Theosophy-2008-04-14T23:08:00.000Z"></span><a href="/wiki/Theosophy" title="Theosophy">Theosophy</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Theosophy-2008-04-14T23:08:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-14T23:08:00.000Z-Theosophy"></span>This page has a habit of claiming the religious beliefs of the Theosoph...anic? sect are true, saying things like "Blavatsky showed that [Theosophanic belief presented as fact]. Wouldn't surprise me if the same didn't apply to all pages on the religion. <a href="/wiki/User:Shoemaker%27s_Holiday" title="User:Shoemaker's Holiday">Shoemaker's Holiday</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Shoemaker%27s_Holiday" title="User talk:Shoemaker's Holiday">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-14T23:08:00.000Z-Theosophy" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:08, 14 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-14T23:08:00.000Z-Theosophy"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-14T23:08:00.000Z-Theosophy"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Woonpton-2008-04-15T17:35:00.000Z-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-14T23:08:00.000Z"></span>This seems less an issue of fringe theory than of simple attribution, making sure assertions are attributed, no? It's not as if this is a fringe view of a larger question; it's simply a description of the beliefs of Theosophists. I was thinking hey, this is something I could do, but it looks as if someone else has already fixed it, since the assertions seem to be attributed now, as in "Theosophists believe..." etc. <a href="/wiki/User:Woonpton" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Woonpton">Woonpton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Woonpton" title="User talk:Woonpton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Woonpton-2008-04-15T17:35:00.000Z-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-14T23:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:35, 15 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Woonpton-2008-04-15T17:35:00.000Z-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-14T23:08:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Woonpton-2008-04-15T17:35:00.000Z-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-14T23:08:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Arion_3x3-2008-04-16T23:47:00.000Z-Theosophy"></span>I agree that it is an issue of attribution. For example, in the article <a href="/wiki/Ascension_of_Jesus" title="Ascension of Jesus">Ascension of Jesus</a>, the statement that he physically ascended can only be made in the context of attributing it to the beliefs of a particular religion(s). <a href="/wiki/User:Arion_3x3" title="User:Arion 3x3">Arion 3x3</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Arion_3x3" title="User talk:Arion 3x3">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Arion_3x3-2008-04-16T23:47:00.000Z-Theosophy" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:47, 16 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Arion_3x3-2008-04-16T23:47:00.000Z-Theosophy"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Arion_3x3-2008-04-16T23:47:00.000Z-Theosophy"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Reddi's_back" data-mw-thread-id="h-Reddi's_back-2008-04-15T15:53:00.000Z"><span id="Reddi.27s_back"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Reddi's_back-2008-04-15T15:53:00.000Z"></span>Reddi's back<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Reddi's_back-2008-04-15T15:53:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><a href="/wiki/User:Reddi" title="User:Reddi"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-ScienceApologist-2008-04-15T15:53:00.000Z-Reddi's_back"></span>Reddi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Reddi" title="User talk:Reddi">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Reddi" title="Special:Contributions/Reddi">contribs</a>) </p><p>You might want to check this user's contributions in case free-energy suppression stuff starts to seep in to mainstream science pages. Also, he likes to hide fringe science in paper laundry lists and he is a big fan of listing patents. These things should be resisted. </p><p><a href="/wiki/User:ScienceApologist" title="User:ScienceApologist">ScienceApologist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ScienceApologist" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:ScienceApologist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-ScienceApologist-2008-04-15T15:53:00.000Z-Reddi's_back" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:53, 15 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-ScienceApologist-2008-04-15T15:53:00.000Z-Reddi's_back"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-ScienceApologist-2008-04-15T15:53:00.000Z-Reddi's_back"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-15T16:56:00.000Z-ScienceApologist-2008-04-15T15:53:00.000Z"></span>does anyone see a point in having an "<a href="/wiki/Unlimited_energy" class="mw-disambig" title="Unlimited energy">unlimited energy</a>" article in the first place? --<a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-15T16:56:00.000Z-ScienceApologist-2008-04-15T15:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:56, 15 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-15T16:56:00.000Z-ScienceApologist-2008-04-15T15:53:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-15T16:56:00.000Z-ScienceApologist-2008-04-15T15:53:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-15T17:02:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-15T16:56:00.000Z"></span>Boils down to whether it is a notable notion. I guess it is if it crops up frequently in science fiction. <a href="/wiki/User:Itsmejudith" title="User:Itsmejudith">Itsmejudith</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Itsmejudith" title="User talk:Itsmejudith">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-15T17:02:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-15T16:56:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:02, 15 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-15T17:02:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-15T16:56:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-15T17:02:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-15T16:56:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moreschi2-2008-04-15T17:05:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-15T17:02:00.000Z"></span>Probably not. Just redirect to <a href="/wiki/Perpetual_motion" title="Perpetual motion">perpetual motion</a>, or a disambig with <a href="/wiki/Renewable_energy" title="Renewable energy">renewable energy</a> also. It seems like Reddi is trying to say that workable sources of unlimited energy are out there now, but we're not being allowed to know about them on account of that fount of all evil, the US Government (is there anything those chaps haven't done?). Evidently the first law of thermodynamics is dispensable here, judging be the mild-mannered description of perpetual-motion-machine inventors as "eccentrics" :) An article on <a href="/w/index.php?title=Energy_in_science_fiction&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Energy in science fiction (page does not exist)">Energy in science fiction</a> might be justifiable, though. <a href="/wiki/User:Moreschi2" title="User:Moreschi2">Moreschi2</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moreschi2" title="User talk:Moreschi2">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Moreschi2-2008-04-15T17:05:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-15T17:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:05, 15 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moreschi2-2008-04-15T17:05:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-15T17:02:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moreschi2-2008-04-15T17:05:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-15T17:02:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dougweller-2008-04-15T18:05:00.000Z-Moreschi2-2008-04-15T17:05:00.000Z"></span>He thinks he should be the final arbiter of what is acceptable as an external link or reference also. Thanks for the headsup.<a href="/wiki/User:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dougweller">Doug Weller</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Dougweller">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dougweller-2008-04-15T18:05:00.000Z-Moreschi2-2008-04-15T17:05:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:05, 15 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dougweller-2008-04-15T18:05:00.000Z-Moreschi2-2008-04-15T17:05:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dougweller-2008-04-15T18:05:00.000Z-Moreschi2-2008-04-15T17:05:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><i><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SheffieldSteel-2008-04-16T16:59:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-04-15T18:05:00.000Z"></span>Show me a device that turns indefinitely, and I'll show you a crank.</i> Will take a look. <a href="/wiki/User:SheffieldSteel" title="User:SheffieldSteel"><span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span></a><sup><small><b><a href="/wiki/User_talk:SheffieldSteel" title="User talk:SheffieldSteel">TALK</a></b></small></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-SheffieldSteel-2008-04-16T16:59:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-04-15T18:05:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:59, 16 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SheffieldSteel-2008-04-16T16:59:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-04-15T18:05:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SheffieldSteel-2008-04-16T16:59:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-04-15T18:05:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="KLA_and_Organ_Trafficking" data-mw-thread-id="h-KLA_and_Organ_Trafficking-2008-04-15T21:54:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-KLA_and_Organ_Trafficking-2008-04-15T21:54:00.000Z"></span>KLA and Organ Trafficking<span data-mw-comment-end="h-KLA_and_Organ_Trafficking-2008-04-15T21:54:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dchall1-2008-04-15T21:54:00.000Z-KLA_and_Organ_Trafficking"></span>I'm concerned about an issue I've seen popping up on Kosovo-related articles over the past few weeks. Apparently, <a href="/wiki/Carla_del_Ponte" class="mw-redirect" title="Carla del Ponte">Carla del Ponte</a>'s upcoming book (<a href="/wiki/The_Hunt:_Me_and_War_criminals" class="mw-redirect" title="The Hunt: Me and War criminals">The Hunt: Me and War criminals</a>) alleges that ethnic Albanian rebels in Kosovo were kidnapping Serbs, killing them, and selling their organs during the <a href="/wiki/Kosovo_War" title="Kosovo War">Kosovo War</a>. Sources for this allegation range from poor (blogs) to decent (cautious references in CNN, WSJ, etc.). </p><p>From my perspective though, there seem to be a few problems with this. First, as far as I can tell, the book is unpublished; Amazon doesn't even list preorder information on the title. Thus, it's impossible for us to independently verify the stories. Leaving aside the blog sources (which, as I understand it, don't count as <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">reliable sources</a>), mainstream news accounts seem sketchy as well. The mostly focus on reports that <a href="/wiki/HRW" class="mw-redirect" title="HRW">HRW</a> and other international agencies have sent a letter to Kosovo authorities for explanation. Maybe my google-fu is weak, but I can't seem to find a copy of the letter. </p><p>I'm not willing to cry hoax on this. There has to be some traction for this story because it has appeared in major news outlets; but as sensational as the topic appears, I would have expected more coverage. Maybe this can be chalked up to "Western anti-Serb bias", but I'm not sure. It looks to me more like news agencies are reporting the story but hedging in case it doesn't play out. </p><p>My biggest concern is that this issue is being used as a big stick with which to beat a number of Kosovo-related articles, in keeping with the on-Wiki pissing contest over the independence declaration. Outside views, both on the story's accuracy as well as on it's relevance, would be welcome. // <a href="/wiki/User:Dchall1" title="User:Dchall1"><span style="font-variant:small-caps;color:#006400"><b>Chris</b></span></a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dchall1" title="User talk:Dchall1"><span style="color:#006400">(complaints)</span></a>•<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/dchall1" title="Special:Contributions/dchall1"><span style="color:#006400">(contribs)</span></a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dchall1-2008-04-15T21:54:00.000Z-KLA_and_Organ_Trafficking" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:54, 15 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dchall1-2008-04-15T21:54:00.000Z-KLA_and_Organ_Trafficking"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dchall1-2008-04-15T21:54:00.000Z-KLA_and_Organ_Trafficking"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T13:09:00.000Z-Dchall1-2008-04-15T21:54:00.000Z"></span>it's a matter of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:UNDUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:UNDUE">WP:UNDUE</a>. It's a book. You cannot treat something as fact just because Carla del Ponte said so. For the book to be used as a source for the main <a href="/wiki/Kosovo" title="Kosovo">Kosovo</a> article, there would at first be some sort of consensus as to its reliability (a consensus among notable critics, not among Wikipedians). Not to mention that it needs to be published first. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T13:09:00.000Z-Dchall1-2008-04-15T21:54:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:09, 16 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T13:09:00.000Z-Dchall1-2008-04-15T21:54:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T13:09:00.000Z-Dchall1-2008-04-15T21:54:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Folantin-2008-04-16T13:18:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T13:09:00.000Z"></span>Yep. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CRYSTAL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CRYSTAL">Wikipedia is not a crystal ball</a>. --<a href="/wiki/User:Folantin" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Folantin">Folantin</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Folantin" title="User talk:Folantin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Folantin-2008-04-16T13:18:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T13:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:18, 16 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Folantin-2008-04-16T13:18:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T13:09:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Folantin-2008-04-16T13:18:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T13:09:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T14:30:00.000Z-Folantin-2008-04-16T13:18:00.000Z"></span>correction, it has been published, a few days ago. Just in the Italian original, no English translation. --<a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T14:30:00.000Z-Folantin-2008-04-16T13:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:30, 16 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T14:30:00.000Z-Folantin-2008-04-16T13:18:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T14:30:00.000Z-Folantin-2008-04-16T13:18:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Dysgenics" data-mw-thread-id="h-Dysgenics-2008-04-16T12:43:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Dysgenics-2008-04-16T12:43:00.000Z"></span><a href="/wiki/Dysgenics" title="Dysgenics">Dysgenics</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Dysgenics-2008-04-16T12:43:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ramdrake-2008-04-16T12:43:00.000Z-Dysgenics"></span>Can somebody take a look at <a href="/wiki/Dysgenics" title="Dysgenics">Dysgenics</a>, as the article seems more and more to be pushing a fringe theory as accepted, mainstream science. Additional eyes are welcome.--<a href="/wiki/User:Ramdrake" title="User:Ramdrake">Ramdrake</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ramdrake" title="User talk:Ramdrake">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Ramdrake-2008-04-16T12:43:00.000Z-Dysgenics" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:43, 16 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ramdrake-2008-04-16T12:43:00.000Z-Dysgenics"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ramdrake-2008-04-16T12:43:00.000Z-Dysgenics"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T13:06:00.000Z-Ramdrake-2008-04-16T12:43:00.000Z"></span>it appears that the article is being hijacked by the "race and intelligence" crowd. Which is driving it off topic. "Genetic deterioration" is not primarily about intelligence, IQ testing may at best be mentioned as a case study in the wider topic. --<a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T13:06:00.000Z-Ramdrake-2008-04-16T12:43:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:06, 16 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T13:06:00.000Z-Ramdrake-2008-04-16T12:43:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T13:06:00.000Z-Ramdrake-2008-04-16T12:43:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Kannada_literature" data-mw-thread-id="h-Kannada_literature-2008-04-16T17:54:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Kannada_literature-2008-04-16T17:54:00.000Z"></span><a href="/wiki/Kannada_literature" title="Kannada literature">Kannada literature</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Kannada_literature-2008-04-16T17:54:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:3O" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:3O"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-16T17:54:00.000Z-Kannada_literature"></span>WP:3O</a> might have been a better place for this except for the "two editors only" rule. Basically, the issue is the locus of scholarly consensus on the dating of a <a href="/wiki/Halmidi_inscription" title="Halmidi inscription">famous inscription</a>. It was dated shortly after the discovery, and this dating has been widely popularized; it shows up in many places. However, the dating has been reconsidered by a number of really heavy guns in the field. So this is a conflict between an undeniably popular view and up-to-date expert scholarship, with the latter now being pooh-poohed as <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:UNDUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:UNDUE">WP:UNDUE</a> because a subtext of <a href="/wiki/Antiquity_frenzy" class="mw-redirect" title="Antiquity frenzy">antiquity frenzy</a> predisposes the naysayers to that early dating. The discussion on the <a href="/wiki/Talk:Kannada_literature" title="Talk:Kannada literature">talk page</a> is extensive at this point, unfortunately -- and there may be an edit-war in the offing -- so some guidance and third-party opinion on things like <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a> and due weight could be helpful. <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-16T17:54:00.000Z-Kannada_literature" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:54, 16 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-16T17:54:00.000Z-Kannada_literature"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-16T17:54:00.000Z-Kannada_literature"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T19:38:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-16T17:54:00.000Z"></span>I understand the difference in dating is a measly century? How does that make for "antiquity frenzy"? Anyway, the input needed at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Kannada_literature" title="Talk:Kannada literature">Talk:Kannada literature</a> is that this is a question of <i>marginal detail</i> to be discussed at <a href="/wiki/Halmidi_inscription" title="Halmidi inscription">Halmidi inscription</a>. Sheesh, it's the page on the entire literature of a major langauge, and they hold it hostage for a quibble over a single pathetic inscription. That's like spamming <a href="/wiki/German_literature" title="German literature">German literature</a> with 200k of obsessively detailed disputes over the <a href="/wiki/Pforzen_buckle" title="Pforzen buckle">Pforzen buckle</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T19:38:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-16T17:54:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:38, 16 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T19:38:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-16T17:54:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T19:38:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-16T17:54:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-16T20:29:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T19:38:00.000Z"></span>Antiquity frenzy in that given 450 AD was an initial dating subsequently revised <i>upward</i> by the likes of Sircar and Gai (which is about as heavy as the artillery gets), I'll bet my bottom dollar that had the revision been <i>downward</i> instead, we would never have even heard about that 450 AD dating, let alone the endless filibustering in favor of it right now. Note also that a vested interest in "finding" hoary antecedents has been created recently by a <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kannada_language#cite_note-classical-3">movement</a> to have Kannada officially recognized as a "classical language" alongside Sanskrit and Tamil. <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-16T20:29:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T19:38:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:29, 16 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-16T20:29:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T19:38:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-16T20:29:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T19:38:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <ul><li><i><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T19:49:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T19:38:00.000Z"></span>"..How does that make for "antiquity frenzy"?.."</i> - <a href="/wiki/Poisoning_the_well" title="Poisoning the well">Slander 101</a> explains it in greater detail. and fwiw, my views are <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Kannada_literature&diff=prev&oldid=206067170">here</a> and <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Kannada_literature&diff=prev&oldid=206070366">here</a>. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sarvagnya" title="User talk:Sarvagnya">Sarvagnya</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T19:49:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T19:38:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:49, 16 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T19:49:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T19:38:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T19:49:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T19:38:00.000Z"></span></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T19:56:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T19:38:00.000Z"></span>and fwiw, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=halmidi+site%3Ajstor.org&btnG=Google+Search">this</a> is what jstor returns and <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=halmidi&hl=en&lr=&start=0&sa=N">this</a> is what google scholar returns. 450, 450, 450, 450, 450 all the way! what the blazes are the likes of rudra and fowler even filibustering about? <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sarvagnya" title="User talk:Sarvagnya">Sarvagnya</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T19:56:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T19:38:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:56, 16 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T19:56:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T19:38:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T19:56:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T19:38:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T20:46:00.000Z-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T19:56:00.000Z"></span>yeah, well, it's still irrelevant to <a href="/wiki/Kannada_literature" title="Kannada literature">Kannada literature</a>, and the entire train wreck should be moved to <a href="/wiki/Talk:Halmidi_inscription" title="Talk:Halmidi inscription">Talk:Halmidi inscription</a>. I understand this is about "we are <a href="/wiki/Classical_languages_of_India" title="Classical languages of India">classical</a> too!", which I suppose must make sense as a label worthy of bickering about to Indian minds, even if it doesn't to anyone else. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T20:46:00.000Z-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T19:56:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:46, 16 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T20:46:00.000Z-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T19:56:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-16T20:46:00.000Z-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T19:56:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T21:39:00.000Z-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T19:56:00.000Z"></span>Where do you find me or Dinesh insisting that it is relevant to <a href="/wiki/Kannada_literature" title="Kannada literature">Kannada literature</a>?! On the contrary, right from the start, we've maintained that this issue(non-issue) has been concocted to stall the FA drive of the article in question. If there is <i>anybody</i> out on that page wanting the "trainwreck" to move to its own page, it is us!</dd> <dd>Also, your rhetoric and rudra's misrepresentation apart, this has nothing to do with "we are classical too!" (whatever that is supposed to mean). This issue, if anything, has solely to do with reporting scholarly consensus and moving on. If you have a problem with that, just say so instead of prating on.<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sarvagnya" title="User talk:Sarvagnya">Sarvagnya</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T21:39:00.000Z-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T19:56:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:39, 16 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T21:39:00.000Z-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T19:56:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T21:39:00.000Z-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T19:56:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moreschi2-2008-04-16T22:32:00.000Z-Kannada_literature"></span>I'm completely bewildered. The greatest disparity in dates could be only 130 years. Judging by the current content of <a href="/wiki/Halmidi_inscription" title="Halmidi inscription">Halmidi inscription</a> there is evidently a genuine debate in academic circles here, albeit that the opinion of the majority looks to favour 450. Put in some compromise wording such as "450 CE" with a footnote saying something like "The date usually given for the inscription, though some scholars favour a later date, a few delaying the date of the inscription until as late as 550. See also <a href="/wiki/Halmidi_inscription#Relevant_section" title="Halmidi inscription">Halmidi inscription#Relevant section</a> for more info". Edit-war done and dusted. <a href="/wiki/User:Moreschi2" title="User:Moreschi2">Moreschi2</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moreschi2" title="User talk:Moreschi2">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Moreschi2-2008-04-16T22:32:00.000Z-Kannada_literature" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:32, 16 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moreschi2-2008-04-16T22:32:00.000Z-Kannada_literature"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moreschi2-2008-04-16T22:32:00.000Z-Kannada_literature"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T22:53:00.000Z-Moreschi2-2008-04-16T22:32:00.000Z"></span>"...commonly dated to 450 AD/5th century..." + a pipelink to the relevant section on the halmidi article + the other dates thrown in in the footnotes is precisely what dinesh and I had suggested about 50 or 100 kb ago. A certain Fowler and a rudra, however continue to filibuster and a certain dab helped things enormously by landing on the page to 'warn' dinesh. and then the same dab turns up here and tells us that the dating dispute on that article is totally irrelevant for that article - as if I or dinesh disagreed! truly bewildering stuff! at this rate, it may not be long before a <a href="/wiki/Sanskrit_literature" title="Sanskrit literature">Sanskrit literature</a> gets overrun by dating debates concerning Panini and Natya Shastra and Dandin and Shankaracharya and Vedas and ... <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sarvagnya" title="User talk:Sarvagnya">Sarvagnya</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T22:53:00.000Z-Moreschi2-2008-04-16T22:32:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:53, 16 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T22:53:00.000Z-Moreschi2-2008-04-16T22:32:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T22:53:00.000Z-Moreschi2-2008-04-16T22:32:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-16T23:21:00.000Z-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T22:53:00.000Z"></span>Yeah, right. First, from <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a> (remember Relata's advice about Ctrl-F?): <i>Many Wikipedia articles rely upon source material created by scientists, scholars, and researchers. This is usually considered reliable, although some material may be outdated by </i><b>more recent research</b><i>, or controversial in the sense that there are alternative theories.</i>. Well, nowhere in the more recent research has the initial 450 AD date been upheld <i>with argument</i>. For the simple reason that it is by no means easy to argue with the likes of Sircar, Gai or Venkatachala Sastry. No one is arguing that the pseudo-precise 450 AD date isn't popular or widely seen; the point is that it is an outdated estimate in relation to informed scholarship. And yet, when Abecedare proposed "mid-fifth to early sixth century" as a possible compromise formulation, who was it now that said "No!"? Boy, you have some nerve. <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-16T23:21:00.000Z-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T22:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:21, 16 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-16T23:21:00.000Z-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T22:53:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-16T23:21:00.000Z-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T22:53:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T23:56:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-16T23:21:00.000Z"></span>Outdated? Why dont you try telling that to Pollock and Bh. Kr and Sridhar and the Archeological Survey of India and the dozens of others who go with the 450 date? And since when did dates culled from 2003 and 2006 become outdated? And for crying out loud, the most recent dating by an epigrapher happens to be by K. V. Ramesh (1984) -- not Sircar (1949), not Gai (1962)! And K. V. Ramesh says "5th century" and also gives his take on the other dates - which are anything but flattering. Sircar's and Gai's dates have been out there for decades and have found next to no takers. And you come prancing here with a forty year old paper crying "stop press!"?! Some piece of work, you are. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sarvagnya" title="User talk:Sarvagnya">Sarvagnya</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T23:56:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-16T23:21:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:56, 16 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T23:56:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-16T23:21:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T23:56:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-16T23:21:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-17T00:31:00.000Z-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T23:56:00.000Z"></span>Look again. Gai's latest work on the subject was in 1991/2. That and Venkatachala Sastry's 1992 study are cited by Pollock. (Not to mention that Ramesh does not uphold 450 AD: he just rejects the 6th for the 5th. Longish quote on the talk page for your perusal.) <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-17T00:31:00.000Z-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T23:56:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:31, 17 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-17T00:31:00.000Z-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T23:56:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-17T00:31:00.000Z-Sarvagnya-2008-04-16T23:56:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-17T01:03:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-17T00:31:00.000Z"></span>1949 or 1992.. Gai's and Sircar's dates have less takers by orders of magnitude. It is for a reason. The reason is that epigraphers, notwithstanding your sales pitch are never the final word on matters of dating. These disagreements will remain perhaps for centuries to come. Panini and Kalidasa have perhaps been dissected a thousand times more than Halmidi by indologists and yet we have lingering debates. And yet, we have the common sense to pick the most frequently cited date(if and when we have to) for Panini and Kalidasa and Rig Veda.. and the commonsense to not overrun <a href="/wiki/Sanskrit_literature" title="Sanskrit literature">Sanskrit literature</a> with these debates. I cant see why Halmidi and Kannada literature have to be exceptions. There's simply no wishing away of WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE regardless of what you think of TVVS or Gai or Sircar. TVVS btw, is no epigraphist and KVR votes for "5th century". <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sarvagnya" title="User talk:Sarvagnya">Sarvagnya</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-17T01:03:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-17T00:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:03, 17 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-17T01:03:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-17T00:31:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-17T01:03:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-17T00:31:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-17T01:36:00.000Z-Sarvagnya-2008-04-17T01:03:00.000Z"></span>Well, count the <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9044579/Kannada-literature">Encyclopedia Britannica</a> among the "takers":-) The articles on <a href="/wiki/Panini" class="mw-disambig" title="Panini">Panini</a> and <a href="/wiki/Kalidasa" title="Kalidasa">Kalidasa</a> are very careful to avoid precise dates (so much so that the <a href="/wiki/Kalidasa" title="Kalidasa">Kalidasa</a> article even gives <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:UNDUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:UNDUE">WP:UNDUE</a> weight to KD Sethna's theories); you need better examples. And yes, KVR votes for the 5th as a judgment that Halmidi is earlier than the other Kadamba era inscriptions. Reading him fairly, he is saying "second half of the 5th". <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-17T01:36:00.000Z-Sarvagnya-2008-04-17T01:03:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:36, 17 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-17T01:36:00.000Z-Sarvagnya-2008-04-17T01:03:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-17T01:36:00.000Z-Sarvagnya-2008-04-17T01:03:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-17T18:52:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-17T01:36:00.000Z"></span>The same EB on another page goes with 450 AD. huh. Anything else? <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sarvagnya" title="User talk:Sarvagnya">Sarvagnya</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-17T18:52:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-17T01:36:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:52, 17 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-17T18:52:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-17T01:36:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sarvagnya-2008-04-17T18:52:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-17T01:36:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-17T19:18:00.000Z-Sarvagnya-2008-04-17T18:52:00.000Z"></span>The EB article on "Historical Survey of the Dravidian Languages"? It says "the earliest inscriptions in Kannada may be dated at...", not "are dated at...". Okay, enough. It might be a better idea for you to review <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a> policy on current research, but if you insist on having the last word, by all means do so. I've even made some space for you. <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-17T19:18:00.000Z-Sarvagnya-2008-04-17T18:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:18, 17 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-17T19:18:00.000Z-Sarvagnya-2008-04-17T18:52:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-17T19:18:00.000Z-Sarvagnya-2008-04-17T18:52:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><br/> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Abecedare-2008-04-17T00:09:00.000Z-Kannada_literature"></span>In my opinion this discussion on the Kannada literature page started with a valid concern that saying that the Halmidi inscription dates to 450 A.D. without any qualifications or "error bars" is not a good idea. After much, and perhaps inordinate, discussion there now seems to be a general consensus on the talk page that something like what Moreschi suggested above is the way to go (i.e., 4-5 words on the usual date in maintext; add a footnote with other views and references and pipelink to <a href="/wiki/Halmidi_inscription#Discovery_and_dating" title="Halmidi inscription">the detailed dating section</a>).<br/> However the current sticking point is simply whether the maintext should say that the Halmidi inscriptions are usually dated to <a href="/wiki/Talk:Kannada_literature#Quick_survey" title="Talk:Kannada literature">5th c/about 5th c/mid 5th c or mid 5th to early 6th c</a>, and I fear that the antipathy that editors have built up towards each other during the lengthy debates over this (and some other ?) article is preventing us from settling this really trivial issue and moving on. Any suggestions ? <a href="/wiki/User:Abecedare" title="User:Abecedare">Abecedare</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Abecedare" title="User talk:Abecedare">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Abecedare-2008-04-17T00:09:00.000Z-Kannada_literature" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:09, 17 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Abecedare-2008-04-17T00:09:00.000Z-Kannada_literature"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Abecedare-2008-04-17T00:09:00.000Z-Kannada_literature"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Relata_refero-2008-04-17T08:25:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-17T00:09:00.000Z"></span>Yes, everyone just walk away for a bit. There Is No Deadline. Work on History of the Uruguayan Economy or something and return when you've cooled down. --<span style="font-family:Georgia"><a href="/wiki/User:Relata_refero" title="User:Relata refero">Relata refero</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Relata_refero" title="User talk:Relata refero">disp.</a>)</span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Relata_refero-2008-04-17T08:25:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-17T00:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:25, 17 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Relata_refero-2008-04-17T08:25:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-17T00:09:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Relata_refero-2008-04-17T08:25:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-17T00:09:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-17T08:34:00.000Z-Kannada_literature"></span>anyone who is at all familiar with dating issues in ancient India knows that it is practically inconceivable to give a date better than within a century's uncertainty. "mid 5th to early 6th century" is already far too precise. It is also <b>irrelevant</b> for the purposes of the Kannada literature article. It is sufficient to state the thing dates to <b>ca. the 5th century</b> and move on. As far as I can see, nobody disagrees with this <i>estimate</i> for the inscriptions date, so I really don't see the problem. As Abecedare points out, this seems to have more to do with animosities between editors than with any factual dispute. Can you please all take a step back, settle for "ca. 5th century" for the <a href="/wiki/Kannada_literature" title="Kannada literature">Kannada literature</a> article, and take the gory details to <a href="/wiki/Halmidi_inscription" title="Halmidi inscription">Halmidi inscription</a>. I honestly don't see what difference it makes to the topic of Kannada literature whether this inscription dates to 450 or to 550. If the dispute was between 450 BCE and 450 CE, I could see the problem, but "give or take a century" is simply business as usual for any topic of ancient India: there was <i>no</i> historiography in India at the time, and any absolute date will be no more than an educated guess. See also <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:LAME" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:LAME">WP:LAME</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-17T08:34:00.000Z-Kannada_literature" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:34, 17 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-17T08:34:00.000Z-Kannada_literature"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-17T08:34:00.000Z-Kannada_literature"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="POV-pushing_and_lies_on_Arsenicum_album" data-mw-thread-id="h-POV-pushing_and_lies_on_Arsenicum_album-2008-04-17T01:38:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-POV-pushing_and_lies_on_Arsenicum_album-2008-04-17T01:38:00.000Z"></span>POV-pushing and lies on <a href="/wiki/Arsenicum_album" title="Arsenicum album">Arsenicum album</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-POV-pushing_and_lies_on_Arsenicum_album-2008-04-17T01:38:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arsenicum_album&curid=12695824&diff=206144997&oldid=206139990"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-17T01:38:00.000Z-POV-pushing_and_lies_on_Arsenicum_album"></span>[1]</a> <- These additions are, quoite frankly, factually untrue. They claim that a study, where the authors admit that they didn't even use control groups for most of the study was a double-blind placebo-controlled study (!) based on some minor, dodgy results in the first part that were sort of placebo controlled, but... well, see <a href="/wiki/Talk:Arsenicum_album#More_info_on_the_human_trial" title="Talk:Arsenicum album">Talk:Arsenicum_album#More_info_on_the_human_trial</a> for more on that part. In short, Ullman and Arion are trying to force in their POV, quotemine a barely-notable study, and other such things. God, what do those two have to do in order to get blocked? Switch to supporting mainstream medicine, because all homeopaths are unblockable? <a href="/wiki/User:Shoemaker%27s_Holiday" title="User:Shoemaker's Holiday">Shoemaker's Holiday</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Shoemaker%27s_Holiday" title="User talk:Shoemaker's Holiday">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-17T01:38:00.000Z-POV-pushing_and_lies_on_Arsenicum_album" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:38, 17 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-17T01:38:00.000Z-POV-pushing_and_lies_on_Arsenicum_album"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-17T01:38:00.000Z-POV-pushing_and_lies_on_Arsenicum_album"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moreschi2-2008-04-17T08:44:00.000Z-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-17T01:38:00.000Z"></span>Probably. This same article's been up on this noticeboard before, too. <a href="/wiki/User:Moreschi2" title="User:Moreschi2">Moreschi2</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moreschi2" title="User talk:Moreschi2">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Moreschi2-2008-04-17T08:44:00.000Z-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-17T01:38:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:44, 17 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moreschi2-2008-04-17T08:44:00.000Z-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-17T01:38:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moreschi2-2008-04-17T08:44:00.000Z-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-17T01:38:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Announcement_of_Fringe-theory_related_Arbcom_case" data-mw-thread-id="h-Announcement_of_Fringe-theory_related_Arbcom_case-2008-04-17T14:49:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Announcement_of_Fringe-theory_related_Arbcom_case-2008-04-17T14:49:00.000Z"></span>Announcement of Fringe-theory related Arbcom case<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Announcement_of_Fringe-theory_related_Arbcom_case-2008-04-17T14:49:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#DanaUllman" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-17T14:49:00.000Z-Announcement_of_Fringe-theory_related_Arbcom_case"></span>Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#DanaUllman</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Shoemaker%27s_Holiday" title="User:Shoemaker's Holiday">Shoemaker's Holiday</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Shoemaker%27s_Holiday" title="User talk:Shoemaker's Holiday">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-17T14:49:00.000Z-Announcement_of_Fringe-theory_related_Arbcom_case" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:49, 17 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-17T14:49:00.000Z-Announcement_of_Fringe-theory_related_Arbcom_case"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-17T14:49:00.000Z-Announcement_of_Fringe-theory_related_Arbcom_case"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="L._Brent_Bozell_III" data-mw-thread-id="h-L._Brent_Bozell_III-2008-04-18T11:17:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-L._Brent_Bozell_III-2008-04-18T11:17:00.000Z"></span><a href="/wiki/L._Brent_Bozell_III" title="L. Brent Bozell III">L. Brent Bozell III</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-L._Brent_Bozell_III-2008-04-18T11:17:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-18T11:17:00.000Z-L._Brent_Bozell_III"></span>Article on a typical <a href="/w/index.php?title=Moral_guardian&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Moral guardian (page does not exist)">moral guardian</a> that's full of the implicit assumption that he is correct in his views. TV programs he campaigns agains are described as "indecent", without qualifications to say it's in his opinion. [I've done some work to fix this, but it really needs well-sourced criticism to be truly balanced.] The lead paragraph is also problematic. The article isn't awful, by any means - a fair bit of criticism is already included - but it falls into the all-too-easy trap of writing from your subject's side when describing his views. <a href="/wiki/User:Shoemaker%27s_Holiday" title="User:Shoemaker's Holiday">Shoemaker's Holiday</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Shoemaker%27s_Holiday" title="User talk:Shoemaker's Holiday">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-18T11:17:00.000Z-L._Brent_Bozell_III" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:17, 18 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-18T11:17:00.000Z-L._Brent_Bozell_III"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-18T11:17:00.000Z-L._Brent_Bozell_III"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="physiological_effects_of_fasting" data-mw-thread-id="h-physiological_effects_of_fasting-2008-04-20T17:09:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-physiological_effects_of_fasting-2008-04-20T17:09:00.000Z"></span>physiological effects of fasting<span data-mw-comment-end="h-physiological_effects_of_fasting-2008-04-20T17:09:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moreschi2-2008-04-20T17:09:00.000Z-physiological_effects_of_fasting"></span>I'm having trouble with <a href="/wiki/User:Ralphyde" title="User:Ralphyde">User:Ralphyde</a> continually adding very questionable claims about the effects of fasting on the <a href="/wiki/Fasting" title="Fasting">fasting</a> article, and trumpeting his personal success with fasting all over the talk page. His only source is books published by some guy named <a href="/wiki/Joel_Fuhrman" title="Joel Fuhrman">Joel Fuhrman</a> (who has an article here that I believe needs to be listed on AfD for lack of notability), and he doesn't have any reputable sources to back it up. For example, some of the claims posted are that fasting can treat cancer and serious heart problems, or that it's used medically for detoxifying. None of this is linked to a single peer-reviewed study. There also seem to be strangely be several people, registered accounts and IPs that always come up whenever someone tries to remove those claims or even argue against them. Could be sockpuppeting (Ralphyde and Ralph770 are pretty similar names, and the latter has no contribution history besides backing up Ralphyde in that talk page), but I don't know well enough to know for sure. Thanks for the help. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:FironDraak&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:FironDraak (page does not exist)">FironDraak</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:FironDraak" title="User talk:FironDraak">talk</a>) </p> <dl><dd>We seem to have a minature walled garden here. I've removed Fuhrman's content from <a href="/wiki/Fasting" title="Fasting">fasting</a> per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:REDFLAG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:REDFLAG">WP:REDFLAG</a> (also NPOV), but the problem extends to <a href="/wiki/Joel_Fuhrman" title="Joel Fuhrman">Joel Fuhrman</a>'s biography and <a href="/wiki/Water_fasting" class="mw-redirect" title="Water fasting">water fasting</a>. There are claims being made that Fuhrman's work has been peer-reviewed but this is not cited, nor the assertion that there is empirical evidence to back up these rather way-out theories (hunger pangs are just detoxification?). More eyes needed. <a href="/wiki/User:Moreschi2" title="User:Moreschi2">Moreschi2</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moreschi2" title="User talk:Moreschi2">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Moreschi2-2008-04-20T17:09:00.000Z-physiological_effects_of_fasting" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:09, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moreschi2-2008-04-20T17:09:00.000Z-physiological_effects_of_fasting"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moreschi2-2008-04-20T17:09:00.000Z-physiological_effects_of_fasting"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-FironDraak-2008-04-20T20:38:00.000Z-Moreschi2-2008-04-20T17:09:00.000Z"></span>Thanks for looking into this. In the same article, there's also a book written by <a href="/wiki/Herbert_M._Shelton" title="Herbert M. Shelton">Herbert M. Shelton</a> being used as a source for fasting treating cancer and allergies. I'll remove the claim and the citation as well. It's in the <a href="/wiki/Fasting#Medical_fasting" title="Fasting">medical fasting</a> section of the article. The particular book is published by the American Natural Hygiene Society Inc, but it's just an organization that he started (so it's essentially self-published). <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:FironDraak&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:FironDraak (page does not exist)">FironDraak</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:FironDraak" title="User talk:FironDraak">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-FironDraak-2008-04-20T20:38:00.000Z-Moreschi2-2008-04-20T17:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:38, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-FironDraak-2008-04-20T20:38:00.000Z-Moreschi2-2008-04-20T17:09:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-FironDraak-2008-04-20T20:38:00.000Z-Moreschi2-2008-04-20T17:09:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ralphyde-2008-04-20T23:02:00.000Z-FironDraak-2008-04-20T20:38:00.000Z"></span>First of all, it was <a href="/w/index.php?title=FironDraak&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="FironDraak (page does not exist)">FironDraak</a> who arbitrarily removed a large well cited section about pure water fasting from the Fasting article. This had been discussed several months ago and the section had remained. I restored the removed section with an explanation on the talk page. Please go read it. Dr. Fuhrman's book is not self-published, and is replete with sixteen pages of references from all over the world, which can be verified online. It is highly recommended by the <i>Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine</i>. Dr. Fuhrman is a leading authority on nutrition and fasting, and has over 88,000 references on Google, as "Joel Fuhrman" (with quotes to limit number). And I don't know <a href="/w/index.php?title=Ralph770&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Ralph770 (page does not exist)">Ralph770</a> but appreciate his input as well. <a href="/wiki/User:Ralphyde" title="User:Ralphyde">Ralphyde</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ralphyde" title="User talk:Ralphyde">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Ralphyde-2008-04-20T23:02:00.000Z-FironDraak-2008-04-20T20:38:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:02, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ralphyde-2008-04-20T23:02:00.000Z-FironDraak-2008-04-20T20:38:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ralphyde-2008-04-20T23:02:00.000Z-FironDraak-2008-04-20T20:38:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="User:Wikidas" data-mw-thread-id="h-User:Wikidas-2008-04-20T15:47:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-User:Wikidas-2008-04-20T15:47:00.000Z"></span><a href="/wiki/User:Wikidas" title="User:Wikidas">User:Wikidas</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-User:Wikidas-2008-04-20T15:47:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T15:47:00.000Z-User:Wikidas"></span><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1236090951">.mw-parser-output .hatnote{font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output div.hatnote{padding-left:1.6em;margin-bottom:0.5em}.mw-parser-output .hatnote i{font-style:normal}.mw-parser-output .hatnote+link+.hatnote{margin-top:-0.5em}@media print{body.ns-0 .mw-parser-output .hatnote{display:none!important}}</style><div role="note" class="hatnote navigation-not-searchable">Further information: <a href="/wiki/Satsvarupa_dasa_Goswami" title="Satsvarupa dasa Goswami">Satsvarupa dasa Goswami</a></div> <p><span class="plainlinks userlinks"><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Wikidas">Wikidas</a></span> <span class="plainlinks">(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikidas" title="User talk:Wikidas">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Wikidas" title="Special:Contributions/Wikidas">contribs</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:DeletedContributions/Wikidas" title="Special:DeletedContributions/Wikidas">deleted contribs</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Nuke/Wikidas" title="Special:Nuke/Wikidas">nuke contribs</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Log/Wikidas" title="Special:Log/Wikidas">logs</a> <b>·</b> <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AAbuseLog&wpSearchUser=Wikidas">filter log</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Block/Wikidas" title="Special:Block/Wikidas">block user</a> <b>·</b> <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog%2Fblock&page=User%3AWikidas">block log</a>)</span></span>, touting an <a href="/wiki/ISKCON" class="mw-redirect" title="ISKCON">ISKCON</a> book as "Indology". </p> <dl><dd><span class="plainlinks"><i>Find sources:</i> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?as_eq=wikipedia&q=%22Readings+in+Vedic+Literature%22">Google</a> (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks:1&q=%22Readings+in+Vedic+Literature%22+-wikipedia">books</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?tbm=nws&q=%22Readings+in+Vedic+Literature%22+-wikipedia&tbs=ar:1">news</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22Readings+in+Vedic+Literature%22">scholar</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&tbs=sur:fmc&tbm=isch&q=%22Readings+in+Vedic+Literature%22+-site:wikipedia.org+-site:wikimedia.org">free images</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&cx=007734830908295939403%3Agalkqgoksq0&cof=FORID%3A13%3BAH%3Aleft%3BCX%3AWikipedia%2520Reference%2520Search&q=%22Readings+in+Vedic+Literature%22">WP refs</a>) <b>·</b> <span title="Free English newspaper sources" style="border-bottom: 1px dotted;"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Free_English_newspaper_sources">FENS</a></span> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=%22Readings+in+Vedic+Literature%22&acc=on&wc=on">JSTOR</a> <b>·</b> <span title="The Wikipedia Library" style="border-bottom: 1px dotted;"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://wikipedialibrary.wmflabs.org/search/?q=%22Readings+in+Vedic+Literature%22">TWL</a></span></span></dd></dl> <p>See <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Hinduism-related_topics_notice_board#Spamming_a_bogus_book" title="Wikipedia talk:Hinduism-related topics notice board">here</a>, and user's talk history (keeps blanking warnings). <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T15:47:00.000Z-User:Wikidas" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:47, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T15:47:00.000Z-User:Wikidas"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T15:47:00.000Z-User:Wikidas"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T16:22:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T15:47:00.000Z"></span>His <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Hinduism-related_topics_notice_board&curid=11379763&diff=206903636&oldid=206902802">latest contribution</a> doesn't bode well. <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T16:22:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T15:47:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:22, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T16:22:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T15:47:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T16:22:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T15:47:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T16:27:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T16:22:00.000Z"></span>That's not <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BOLD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BOLD">WP:BOLD</a>; that is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:IDIDNTHEARTHAT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:IDIDNTHEARTHAT">WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Abecedare" title="User:Abecedare">Abecedare</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Abecedare" title="User talk:Abecedare">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T16:27:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T16:22:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:27, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T16:27:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T16:22:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T16:27:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T16:22:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moreschi2-2008-04-20T16:59:00.000Z-User:Wikidas"></span>The author of "Reading in Vedic Literature" is <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.iskcon.com/icj/3_1/sdg.html">quite manifestly a crank</a>. Some of this really is laugh-out-loud material. <a href="/wiki/User:Moreschi2" title="User:Moreschi2">Moreschi2</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moreschi2" title="User talk:Moreschi2">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Moreschi2-2008-04-20T16:59:00.000Z-User:Wikidas" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:59, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moreschi2-2008-04-20T16:59:00.000Z-User:Wikidas"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moreschi2-2008-04-20T16:59:00.000Z-User:Wikidas"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T17:22:00.000Z-User:Wikidas"></span>this may be a good time to check the eulogy at <a href="/wiki/Satsvarupa_dasa_Goswami" title="Satsvarupa dasa Goswami">Satsvarupa dasa Goswami</a>, especially the "Academic presentation" section: </p> <dl><dd><i>First book published in 1975 during <a href="/wiki/Prabhupada" class="mw-redirect" title="Prabhupada">Prabhupada</a>'s lifetime was </i>Readings in Vedic Literature: the Tradition Speaks for Itself<i>.[ <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.iskcon.com/icj/3_1/sdg.html">ICJ Vol 3, No 1 - June 1995</a> The First Indologists. Satsvarupa dasa Goswami] <a href="/wiki/Prabhupada" class="mw-redirect" title="Prabhupada">Prabhupada</a> was greatly appreciative of the review of the book by the academic circles. Satsvarupa dasa Goswami was supportive of the foundation of <a href="/wiki/ISKCON" class="mw-redirect" title="ISKCON">ISKCON</a> <a href="/wiki/Oxford_Centre_for_Hindu_Studies" title="Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies">Oxford Centre of Vaisnava and Hindu Studies</a> and some of his works were published in ICJ [ <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.iskcon.com/icj/1_2/12sdg.html">The Inner Life of a Preacher</a> ICJ Vol 1, No 2 December 1994.] and reviewed by the academia in ICJ academic journal. [ <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.iskcon.com/icj/3_1/sdg.html">ICJ Authors page</a>of Satsvarupa dasa Goswami <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.iskcon.com/icj/5_1/5_1sdg.html">Review</a> of the </i>A Poor Man Reading the Bhagavatam<i>, vol.1. by Dr. K. Klostermaier, ICJ 5.1] Dispite initial <a href="/wiki/Anti-cult" class="mw-redirect" title="Anti-cult">anti-cult</a> controversies, the Hare Krishna movement today is accepted by the academics as "the most genuinely Hindu of all the many Indian movements in the West".[[[#CITEREFKlostermair2000|Klostermair 2000]], Intro<span class="error harv-error" style="display: none; font-size:100%"> harvnb error: no target: CITEREFKlostermair2000 (<a href="/wiki/Category:Harv_and_Sfn_template_errors" title="Category:Harv and Sfn template errors">help</a>)</span>]</i></dd></dl> <p>As with the Hindutva crowd, their key claim to "academic recognition" is <a href="/wiki/Klaus_Klostermaier" title="Klaus Klostermaier">Klaus Klostermaier</a>. --<a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T17:22:00.000Z-User:Wikidas" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:22, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T17:22:00.000Z-User:Wikidas"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T17:22:00.000Z-User:Wikidas"></span> </p> <dl><dd><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_Hinduism&diff=prev&oldid=206869840"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T17:40:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T17:22:00.000Z"></span>Quote-mining at its best</a> to suggest that <a href="/wiki/Moriz_Winternitz" title="Moriz Winternitz">Moriz Winternitz</a> thought Vedic history is a couple of thousand years years <i>older</i> than 2nd millenium BC. <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://books.google.com/books?id=FYPOVdzZ2UIC&pg=RA1-PA25&source=gbs_search_r&cad=0_1&sig=-YpDfgy00CNbSE6ZO6zIwcejrdo#PRA1-PA26,M1">Here</a> is Winternitz being critical of exactly such <a href="/wiki/Antiquity_frenzy" class="mw-redirect" title="Antiquity frenzy">antiquity frenzy</a> (pages 25-26; <s>I <i>think</i></s> it is the same book being quoted with a different translator). Articles edited by <a href="/wiki/User:Wikidas" title="User:Wikidas">User:Wikidas</a> need thorough checking for more such misrepresentations and poor sourcing. <a href="/wiki/User:Abecedare" title="User:Abecedare">Abecedare</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Abecedare" title="User talk:Abecedare">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T17:40:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T17:22:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:40, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T17:40:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T17:22:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T17:40:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T17:22:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T17:48:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-20T17:40:00.000Z"></span>Heh. Quote that to the <a href="/wiki/Kannada_literature" title="Kannada literature">Kannada literature</a> fans and who knows how many gaskets would blow? (Though I note that F&f has raised the delicate question of what ever happened to those 96000 verses...) <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T17:48:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-20T17:40:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:48, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T17:48:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-20T17:40:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T17:48:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-20T17:40:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T18:12:00.000Z-User:Wikidas"></span>so, I think at this point we can assume it is official that Wikidas knows what he is doing and is gaming the system on purpose. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T18:12:00.000Z-User:Wikidas" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:12, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T18:12:00.000Z-User:Wikidas"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T18:12:00.000Z-User:Wikidas"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T19:02:00.000Z-User:Wikidas"></span>Looking at the <a href="/wiki/Satsvarupa_dasa_Goswami" title="Satsvarupa dasa Goswami">Satsvarupa dasa Goswami</a> article and discussion history, I see that are some details about "personal improprieties" by Goswami, for which he was sanctioned by ISKCON. <a href="/wiki/User:Wikidas" title="User:Wikidas">User:Wikidas</a> sanitized them from the article (see the "Personal difficulties" section) as well as the talk pages (see Archive 1 + many comments that were deleted from the talk page), even though they were sourced and linked from Goswami's own website (<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.sdgonline.org/letter.html">[2]</a>, <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.dandavats.com/?p=5000">[3]</a>). I certainly won't be adding back the content to the wikipedia article since at this point it will appear retaliatory, but IMO it is another case where the user could not keep his personal beliefs and preferences off wikipedia, and wikilawyered based on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BLP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BLP">WP:BLP</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Abecedare" title="User:Abecedare">Abecedare</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Abecedare" title="User talk:Abecedare">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T19:02:00.000Z-User:Wikidas" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:02, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T19:02:00.000Z-User:Wikidas"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T19:02:00.000Z-User:Wikidas"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T20:17:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-20T19:02:00.000Z"></span>Just curious, why is the ToC in an unusual place, tucked away like that? <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T20:17:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-20T19:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:17, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T20:17:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-20T19:02:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T20:17:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-20T19:02:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T20:30:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T20:17:00.000Z"></span>I had corrected it and pointed out the MOS when I had first seen the article three weeks back. (See <a href="/wiki/Talk:Satsvarupa_dasa_Goswami#Article_formatting" title="Talk:Satsvarupa dasa Goswami">here</a>) I had thought that I could help wikify and cleanup the article, but eventually gave up in face of constant resistance and since the subject was not of great interest to me. <a href="/wiki/User:Abecedare" title="User:Abecedare">Abecedare</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Abecedare" title="User talk:Abecedare">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T20:30:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T20:17:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:30, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T20:30:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T20:17:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T20:30:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T20:17:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Why_the_vedas?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Why_the_vedas?-User:Wikidas-2008-04-20T19:09:00.000Z"><span id="Why_the_vedas.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Why_the_vedas?-User:Wikidas-2008-04-20T19:09:00.000Z"></span>Why the vedas?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Why_the_vedas?-User:Wikidas-2008-04-20T19:09:00.000Z"></span></h3></div> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Haemo-2008-04-20T19:09:00.000Z-Why_the_vedas?"></span>I have a question — why does Vedas-related material attract cranks so commonly? --<a href="/wiki/User:Haemo" title="User:Haemo">Haemo</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Haemo" title="User talk:Haemo">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Haemo-2008-04-20T19:09:00.000Z-Why_the_vedas?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:09, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Haemo-2008-04-20T19:09:00.000Z-Why_the_vedas?"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Haemo-2008-04-20T19:09:00.000Z-Why_the_vedas?"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T19:18:00.000Z-Haemo-2008-04-20T19:09:00.000Z"></span>In an nutshell, India and the West were confused by one another in the 19th century. The West got cheesy esotericism, and India got cranky pseudoscience. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T19:18:00.000Z-Haemo-2008-04-20T19:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:18, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T19:18:00.000Z-Haemo-2008-04-20T19:09:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T19:18:00.000Z-Haemo-2008-04-20T19:09:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T19:22:00.000Z-Haemo-2008-04-20T19:09:00.000Z"></span>Good question. My take: the "Vedas" are a maguffin-like conjuration to most Hindus, because they really haven't the first notion of what's in them. And that's because the vedas have been relentlessly obfuscated, mythologized and sanctified (while kept carefully out of sight) for the better part of the last 2000 years. So, since they are so ancient and hoary and glorious and holy and special and all that, the natural tendency is to associate anything <i>you</i> want to sanctify as... "vedic". For instant, knee-jerk venerability. All you have to do is to claim this; since no one else knows any better, they're all too likely (in the Indian context, anyway) to be impressed by your confident assertion... and concede... and pass it on the next guy... And so the myths multiply, and in due course practically everything starts to get labelled "vedic", including today's astrology column. And finally, they bring this mass of addlepated wishful thinking to Wikipedia. <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T19:22:00.000Z-Haemo-2008-04-20T19:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:22, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T19:22:00.000Z-Haemo-2008-04-20T19:09:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T19:22:00.000Z-Haemo-2008-04-20T19:09:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T19:23:00.000Z-Haemo-2008-04-20T19:09:00.000Z"></span>Short answer: History+religion+nationalism make for a potent mixture and "vedic" literature is just one of the topics at the intersection. It is a pity, because <i>neutral</i> facts about the Vedic and Sanskrit literature are remarkable enough, and the surrounding pseudohistory/pseudoscience does nothing to enhance their merits. <a href="/wiki/User:Abecedare" title="User:Abecedare">Abecedare</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Abecedare" title="User talk:Abecedare">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T19:23:00.000Z-Haemo-2008-04-20T19:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:23, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T19:23:00.000Z-Haemo-2008-04-20T19:09:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T19:23:00.000Z-Haemo-2008-04-20T19:09:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T19:33:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-20T19:23:00.000Z"></span>Haemo, you'll note that both rudra and I put "vedic" in quotes (for reasons explained in rudra's comment). Incidentally, Wikidas' edits have <i>nothing</i> to do with the <a href="/wiki/Vedas" title="Vedas">Vedas</a> <i>per se</i>; a significant problem with them is that he'd like to stretch the definition of <a href="/wiki/Vedas" title="Vedas">Vedas</a> to cover the texts held "most" holy by ISKCON. This of course, is a well-established practice of upcoming Hindu sects for centuries and is explained in the <a href="/wiki/Fifth_Veda" title="Fifth Veda">Fifth Veda</a> article. <a href="/wiki/User:Abecedare" title="User:Abecedare">Abecedare</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Abecedare" title="User talk:Abecedare">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T19:33:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-20T19:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:33, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T19:33:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-20T19:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T19:33:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-20T19:23:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T20:15:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-20T19:33:00.000Z"></span>it's partly a semantic problemm, what with <i>veda</i> meaning "<a href="/wiki/Knowledge" title="Knowledge">knowledge</a>" vs. <a href="/wiki/Vedic_Sanskrit" title="Vedic Sanskrit">Vedic Sanskrit</a> referring to a specific corpus. Quite similar to <i>islam</i> meaning "<a href="/wiki/Islam_(term)" class="mw-redirect" title="Islam (term)">piety</a>" vs. <a href="/wiki/Islam" title="Islam">Islam</a> referring to a specific religious tradition. Fwiiw, <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dvaita_literature&diff=prev&oldid=206875635">this</a> edit by Wikidas (if a genuine <a href="/wiki/Bhavishya_Purana" title="Bhavishya Purana">Bhavishya Purana</a> quote) may be useful in elucidating the history of the problem. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T20:15:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-20T19:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:15, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T20:15:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-20T19:33:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T20:15:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-20T19:33:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T21:07:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T20:15:00.000Z"></span>Heh, <i>veda ity eva śabditaḥ</i> "noised indeed as 'veda'". By Madhvacarya's time, that could well have been true. Peculiar quote, though. 3 16-syllable lines instead of 4. (And, I suppose, an obligatory typo.) <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T21:07:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T20:15:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:07, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T21:07:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T20:15:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T21:07:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T20:15:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T21:13:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T21:07:00.000Z"></span>rudra, I think your translation "noised" is a bit disingenious. You seem to imply that later religious scripture is somehow inferior to earlier religious scripture. That's a fallacy. The only thing we need to do is <i>distinguish</i> between one and the other, not prefer one over the other. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T21:13:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T21:07:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:13, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T21:13:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T21:07:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T21:13:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T21:07:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T21:28:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T21:13:00.000Z"></span>No, I wasn't implying that. But it's true that the tendency of tradition, even when newly invented, has always been to obliterate the distinction. The fundamental problem there is that it has created a long standing fallacy that a consistent continuity has prevailed, that latter day religion is "no different" than the Vedic one. And so, the facts of Vedic times must be suppressed, distorted or misrepresented in order to maintain that fallacy (or else, horrors, the tradition will be "falsified"!) Case in point: the bizarre flap over whether the Vedic folks ate beef. Basically, it is practically a cultural given to <i>deny</i> the distinction you and I know exists. <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T21:28:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T21:13:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:28, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T21:28:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T21:13:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T21:28:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T21:13:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-21T17:22:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T21:13:00.000Z"></span>(off-topic) But yes, "noised" was less than kind. I get bothered more than I should by poor versification, such as when words like <i>eva</i> are used as metrical filler and not for meaningful emphasis. IMHO, the inherent clumsiness if not also silliness of <i>eva śabditaḥ</i> deserves ribbing (something like <i>veda iti pracakṣataḥ</i> would have worked just as well and met the requirement of a heavy antepenultimate syllable.) <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-21T17:22:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T21:13:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:22, 21 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-21T17:22:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T21:13:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-21T17:22:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T21:13:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T21:33:00.000Z-Why_the_vedas?"></span><deindent></dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/Wilfred_Cantwell_Smith" title="Wilfred Cantwell Smith">Wilfred Cantwell Smith</a> has some interesting thoughts on the various uses of the term veda in <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://books.google.com/books?id=0RVUzV4JpAgC&pg=PA132&source=gbs_search_r&cad=1_1&sig=a-gzvNrzVdSOI62MeO84YDDNkhI#PPA133,M1">What is scripture? </a> (page 133 onwards). I agree with need to be clear about the intended meaning, rather than judge the comparative worths of the Vedas v/s vedas. And, of course, there are intentional attempts to blur the distinction as in SDG's book. <a href="/wiki/User:Abecedare" title="User:Abecedare">Abecedare</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Abecedare" title="User talk:Abecedare">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T21:33:00.000Z-Why_the_vedas?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:33, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T21:33:00.000Z-Why_the_vedas?"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T21:33:00.000Z-Why_the_vedas?"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Madhvacharya_quote" data-mw-thread-id="h-Madhvacharya_quote-User:Wikidas-2008-04-20T20:46:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Madhvacharya_quote-User:Wikidas-2008-04-20T20:46:00.000Z"></span>Madhvacharya quote<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Madhvacharya_quote-User:Wikidas-2008-04-20T20:46:00.000Z"></span></h3></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidas-2008-04-20T20:46:00.000Z-Madhvacharya_quote"></span>Thanks for your comments guys, just to make sure to our presentation is based on Madhva comments on the <a href="/wiki/Vedanta_sutra" class="mw-redirect" title="Vedanta sutra">Vedanta sutra</a> (2.1.6), where quotes the Bhaviṣya Purāṇa as follows: </p><p>ṛg-yajuḥ-sāmārtharvāś ca bhārataṁ pañcarātrakam mūla-rāmāyaṇaṁ caiva veda ity eva śabditaḥ purāṇāni ca yānīha vaiṣṇavāni vido viduḥ </p><p>"The <a href="/wiki/Rig_Veda" class="mw-redirect" title="Rig Veda">Ṛg Veda</a>, <a href="/wiki/Yajur_Veda" class="mw-redirect" title="Yajur Veda">Yajur Veda</a>, Sāma Veda, Atharva Veda, <a href="/wiki/Mahabharata" title="Mahabharata">Mahābhārata</a> (which includes the <a href="/wiki/Gita" class="mw-redirect" title="Gita">Bhagavad-gītā</a>), Pañcarātra, and the original <a href="/wiki/Ramayana" title="Ramayana">Rāmāyaṇa</a> are all considered Vedic literature.... The Vaiṣṇava supplements, the Purāṇas, are also Vedic literature." We may also include corollary literatures like the Saṁhitās, as well as the commentaries of the great teachers who have guided the course of Vedic thought for centuries. </p><p>Incidentally it was quoted in <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1238218222">.mw-parser-output cite.citation{font-style:inherit;word-wrap:break-word}.mw-parser-output .citation q{quotes:"\"""\"""'""'"}.mw-parser-output .citation:target{background-color:rgba(0,127,255,0.133)}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-free.id-lock-free a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Lock-green.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited.id-lock-limited a,.mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration.id-lock-registration a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Lock-gray-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription.id-lock-subscription a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Lock-red-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Wikisource-logo.svg")right 0.1em center/12px no-repeat}body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-free a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background-size:contain;padding:0 1em 0 0}.mw-parser-output .cs1-code{color:inherit;background:inherit;border:none;padding:inherit}.mw-parser-output .cs1-hidden-error{display:none;color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-visible-error{color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{display:none;color:#085;margin-left:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-left{padding-left:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-right{padding-right:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .citation .mw-selflink{font-weight:inherit}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .cs1-format{font-size:95%}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}</style><cite id="CITEREFGoswami1976" class="citation cs2"><a href="/wiki/Satsvarupa_dasa_Goswami" title="Satsvarupa dasa Goswami">Goswami, S.D.</a> (1976), <i>Readings in Vedic Literature: The Tradition Speaks for Itself</i>, <a href="/wiki/Bhaktivedanta_Book_Trust" class="mw-redirect" title="Bhaktivedanta Book Trust">Bhaktivedanta Book Trust</a>, pp. 240 pages, <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/0912776889" title="Special:BookSources/0912776889"><bdi>0912776889</bdi></a></cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Readings+in+Vedic+Literature%3A+The+Tradition+Speaks+for+Itself&rft.pages=240+pages&rft.pub=Bhaktivedanta+Book+Trust&rft.date=1976&rft.isbn=0912776889&rft.aulast=Goswami&rft.aufirst=S.D.&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia%3AFringe+theories%2FNoticeboard%2FArchive+5" class="Z3988"></span></ref> As reviewed by Dr. T. J. Hopkins of Department of Religious Studies, Franklin and Marshall College </p> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1244412712">.mw-parser-output .templatequote{overflow:hidden;margin:1em 0;padding:0 32px}.mw-parser-output .templatequotecite{line-height:1.5em;text-align:left;margin-top:0}@media(min-width:500px){.mw-parser-output .templatequotecite{padding-left:1.6em}}</style><blockquote class="templatequote"><p>Having indicated my own academic reservations, I must add that I am nonetheless impressed by Satsvarūpa dāsa Goswami's presentation. His initial chapter is one of the best statements available on the importance of the guru in transmitting spiritual knowledge, his chapters on "Essential Elements of Vedic Thought," "Vedic Literature-Siddhānta and History," "The Teachings of the Ācāryas," and "Impersonalism Versus Theism" are excellent summaries of devotional theology as found within the Indian religious tradition, and his chapter on "The Vedic Social Philosophy" gives a compelling vision of "the God-centered society."</p><div class="templatequotecite">— <cite>T J Hopkins</cite></div></blockquote> <p>I do not expect you guys to fully relate to this material, but you have to realize that you should arrive at NPOV here. This is specific and devotional perspective and is based and about Vedic tradition. BTW <a href="/wiki/Bhaktivedanta_Book_Trust" class="mw-redirect" title="Bhaktivedanta Book Trust">Bhaktivedanta Book Trust</a> is the biggest publishing house of Vedic literature (of course, if you accept devotional tradition as part of Vedic perspective). There are different views on it, I represent one view and you have a different views, I do not see the problem in it, you seems to have.--<span style="font-family:Tahoma;"><a href="/wiki/User:Wikidas" title="User:Wikidas">Wikidās ॐ</a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Wikidas-2008-04-20T20:46:00.000Z-Madhvacharya_quote" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:46, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidas-2008-04-20T20:46:00.000Z-Madhvacharya_quote"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidas-2008-04-20T20:46:00.000Z-Madhvacharya_quote"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T21:08:00.000Z-Madhvacharya_quote"></span>The foreword of the book itself starts with the following caveat: </p> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1244412712"><blockquote class="templatequote"><p> It is only just, in a karmic sense, that an academic scholar be asked to write the foreword for a book that rejects the views of most academic scholars on the historical development of the Vedas. To protect my own academic status (and perhaps incur further bad karma), I should say at the outset that I do not as a scholar accept Satsvarupa dasa Goswami's views on the origin of the Vedas, and I question his use of evidence from the epics and Puranas, which I consider non-Vedic, to prove that these same sources have Vedic authority.</p><div class="templatequotecite">— <cite>T. J. Hopkins</cite></div></blockquote> <p>and the whole foreword can be read <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://catalog.bbt.info/d_show_excerpt.php?id=37&edi=39">here</a>. Beside that blistering foreword, the book has received no non-ISKCON scholarly review or notice whatsover. I think that should settle the issue on the non-reliability and fringeyness of the source. <a href="/wiki/User:Abecedare" title="User:Abecedare">Abecedare</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Abecedare" title="User talk:Abecedare">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T21:08:00.000Z-Madhvacharya_quote" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:08, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T21:08:00.000Z-Madhvacharya_quote"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Abecedare-2008-04-20T21:08:00.000Z-Madhvacharya_quote"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T21:11:00.000Z-Madhvacharya_quote"></span>so, you quote SDG quoting Madhva, quoting the Vedanta sutra quoting the Bhavishya Purana? Why the hell don't you just quote the Bhavishya Purana, <i>at</i> <a href="/wiki/Bhavishya_Purana" title="Bhavishya Purana">Bhavishya Purana</a> where the quote will be on topic? The confusion is with the term "Vedic". You use "Vedic" not in the sense of the Four <a href="/wiki/Vedas" title="Vedas">Vedas</a>, but in <a href="/wiki/Vedic_(disambiguation)" class="mw-disambig" title="Vedic (disambiguation)">another sense</a>. There is nothing wrong with that, you just need to keep it on an article where it is on topic (<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DAB" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DAB">WP:DAB</a>). So, you may be interested in editing <a href="/wiki/Bhavishya_Purana" title="Bhavishya Purana">Bhavishya Purana</a>, and you'll be welcome to do that. "devotional tradition" is a respectable topic, and it has its own article, at <a href="/wiki/Bhakti_movement" title="Bhakti movement">Bhakti movement</a>. We are just asking you to not mix up Iron Age religion with late medieval religion, but you are of course perfectly welcome to discuss religion in late medieval India at the proper place. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T21:11:00.000Z-Madhvacharya_quote" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:11, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T21:11:00.000Z-Madhvacharya_quote"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T21:11:00.000Z-Madhvacharya_quote"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T22:44:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T21:11:00.000Z"></span>I'm having doubts about the whole thing. Madhvacarya quoting something as unauthoritative as the Bhavishya Purana while commenting on the VedantaSutra? At 2.1.6 (<i>dṛśyate tu</i>) which doesn't seem to have any connection with a "definition" of the vedas? And one and a half shlokas quoted? And never mind that Madhvacarya himself is "predicted" in the Pratisargaparvan? This is just too weird. I think we need to locate the passage in Bhavishya Purana before anything else. <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T22:44:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T21:11:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:44, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T22:44:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T21:11:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T22:44:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-20T21:11:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T23:16:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T22:44:00.000Z"></span>Okay, here is an <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.iskcon.com/icj/4_2/4_2vedic2.html">article</a> by Rahul Peter Das on the ISKCON journal site. It has a <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.iskcon.com/icj/4_2/4_2vedicfoot.html">separate page</a> for the footnotes. See footnotes 49 and 51. Looks like SDG got his shlokas garbled. Apparently the (correct) passages exist in Madhvacharya's commentary, but we can't be sure of which Purana he quoted (in footnote 51). I think all we have here is Madhvacharya's own doctrine of what constitute the "vedas" and nothing more. He actually calls them shastras instead, too. <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T23:16:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T22:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:16, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T23:16:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T22:44:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T23:16:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T22:44:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T07:52:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T23:16:00.000Z"></span>I perfectly know your views, and Im happy to generate some discussion on it. You seem to follow one system of definition on what is 'Vedic' (an irong age theory...), and I follow another (a more wholistic as far as tradition is concerned). I really appreciate rudra bringing it up (not the tone but the principle of being bold here) - this is a critical issue, for the common usage of word <b>Vedic</b> is different to what rudra has, even its an accepted view by western academics, (for example -><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.astrojyoti.com/scripturesindex.htm">[4]</a>). Historically it were western or christian scholars who introduced the concept of 'post-Vedic Purana period' - of course I can be wrong, but give me a quote with 'post-Vedic Purana period' from the period before British occupation? <span style="font-family:Tahoma;"><a href="/wiki/User:Wikidas" title="User:Wikidas">Wikidās ॐ</a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T07:52:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T23:16:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:52, 21 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T07:52:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T23:16:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T07:52:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-20T23:16:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-21T10:19:00.000Z-Wikidas-2008-04-21T07:52:00.000Z"></span>hah, so rudra does your job for you by looking up a garbled quote of yours, and you decide to go on about "his views" rather than addressing the point. Your definition of "Vedic" is irrelevant to the point that SDG garbled his Purana quotes. That's shoddy work even <i>before</i> we discuss disambiguation of the term "Vedic". And, no, critical philology was invented by Indians far before Europeans (Panini's <i>chandasi</i>) , they just forgot all about it in the course of the Middle Ages. The Bhakti movement originated in the Middle Ages, come on, even Indian tradition is aware of that, try to avoid using "[w]holistic" as a synonym for "uninformed" or "muddle-headed". Giving us an "astrojyoti.com" link as an "example" of the views of "western academics" is just pathetic, come on, that's below you. By "Vedic" you seem to mean <a href="/wiki/Shruti" class="mw-redirect" title="Shruti">Shruti</a>. Get your terminology straight and you'll be fine. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-21T10:19:00.000Z-Wikidas-2008-04-21T07:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:19, 21 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-21T10:19:00.000Z-Wikidas-2008-04-21T07:52:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-21T10:19:00.000Z-Wikidas-2008-04-21T07:52:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-21T11:35:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-21T10:19:00.000Z"></span>Interestingly enough, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://hinduism.iskcon.com/tradition/1105.htm">this page</a> on the ISKCON site comes pretty close to the mark on the <a href="/wiki/Shruti" class="mw-redirect" title="Shruti">Shruti</a>/<a href="/wiki/Smriti" class="mw-redirect" title="Smriti">Smriti</a> distinction. (The VedantaSutra is promoted to Shruti only by Vedantins, technically it's only one of the six orthodox <a href="/wiki/Darsana" class="mw-redirect" title="Darsana">philosophies</a>. And 108 Upanishads is definitely overkill: at best the <a href="/wiki/Mukhya" class="mw-redirect" title="Mukhya">mukhya</a> would qualify, and that too only after <a href="/wiki/Adi_Sankara" class="mw-redirect" title="Adi Sankara">Sankaracharya's</a> time). <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-21T11:35:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-21T10:19:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:35, 21 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-21T11:35:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-21T10:19:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-21T11:35:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-21T10:19:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-21T12:49:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-21T11:35:00.000Z"></span>the page correctly refers to "the Vedas and their corollaries sometimes called collectively 'the Vedic scriptures.'" The question is <i>what</i> qualifies as a "corollary to the Vedas". Possibly all of shruti. The statement that "the <a href="/wiki/ISKCON" class="mw-redirect" title="ISKCON">ISKCON</a> considers 'Vedic scriptures' to include the <a href="/wiki/Bhagavad_Gita" title="Bhagavad Gita">Bhagavad Gita</a> etc." would still be objective. Just a question of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DUE">WP:DUE</a> whether and where on the <a href="/wiki/Vedas" title="Vedas">Vedas</a> page this should be noted. A brief note under <a href="/wiki/Vedas#Other_.22Vedas.22" title="Vedas">'other Vedas'</a> may be arguable. --<a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-21T12:49:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-21T11:35:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:49, 21 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-21T12:49:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-21T11:35:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-21T12:49:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-21T11:35:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="More" data-mw-thread-id="h-More-User:Wikidas-2008-04-21T07:52:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-More-User:Wikidas-2008-04-21T07:52:00.000Z"></span>More<span data-mw-comment-end="h-More-User:Wikidas-2008-04-21T07:52:00.000Z"></span></h3></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T07:52:00.000Z-More"></span>From the back cover: </p> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1244412712"><blockquote class="templatequote"><p>“Readers, be of good cheer. To those of you who have surveyed in confusion the trackless path of Indian philosophy, this volume offers hope and respite. You are holding in your hands a reasonable and highly readable account of the particulars of Vedic thought.…Read and find enlightenment.” </p><div class="templatequotecite">— <cite>Professor Jerry Clack, Department of Classics, Duquesne University</cite></div></blockquote> <p>Please understand, Im not pushing for a veiw that is not-acceptable, I just question the basis of your views, as most of them are not as well sourced as you imagine, even if you look at the articles. <span style="font-family:Tahoma;"><a href="/wiki/User:Wikidas" title="User:Wikidas">Wikidās ॐ</a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T07:52:00.000Z-More" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:52, 21 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T07:52:00.000Z-More"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T07:52:00.000Z-More"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-21T09:47:00.000Z-Wikidas-2008-04-21T07:52:00.000Z"></span>You cited Radhakrishnan and Moore, <i>A Sourcebook in Indian Philosophy</i>, in some of your edits. Now would be a good time to read that book. <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-21T09:47:00.000Z-Wikidas-2008-04-21T07:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:47, 21 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-21T09:47:00.000Z-Wikidas-2008-04-21T07:52:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-21T09:47:00.000Z-Wikidas-2008-04-21T07:52:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-21T10:22:00.000Z-Wikidas-2008-04-21T07:52:00.000Z"></span>yes, Wikidas. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Read the literature. If you have "initiate" knowledge imparted to you by "<a href="/wiki/Guru-shishya_tradition" class="mw-redirect" title="Guru-shishya tradition">guru-shishya tradition</a>", understand that this "knowledge" is your personal spiritual property and has <i>no place</i> on Wikipedia, which is an <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ENC" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ENC">encyclopedia</a>, not a florilegium of spiritual wisdom. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-21T10:22:00.000Z-Wikidas-2008-04-21T07:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:22, 21 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-21T10:22:00.000Z-Wikidas-2008-04-21T07:52:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-21T10:22:00.000Z-Wikidas-2008-04-21T07:52:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zeuspitar-2008-04-21T09:47:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-21T10:22:00.000Z"></span>Man, this wikidas iskcon guy is all mixed up! He doesnt even know what he is talking or debating about! His unfounded and perposterous group ideas are just shocking! Alot of ISKCON people believe what he is saying. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Zeuspitar&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Zeuspitar (page does not exist)">Govinda Ramanuja dasa</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Zeuspitar" title="User talk:Zeuspitar">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Zeuspitar-2008-04-21T09:47:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-21T10:22:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:47, 21 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zeuspitar-2008-04-21T09:47:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-21T10:22:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zeuspitar-2008-04-21T09:47:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-21T10:22:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zeuspitar-2008-04-21T21:22:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-21T10:22:00.000Z"></span>When it comes to the term "vedic" and ISKCON; if you really study their beliefs and principles, you will find out that they do not follow the four Veda (calling them "karma Kanda"), the original main upanishads (calling them "mayavada" philosophy). They are actually an anti-Shruti group. I have even heard scholars say they are actually also an anti-vedantic group.<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Zeuspitar&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Zeuspitar (page does not exist)">Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Zeuspitar" title="User talk:Zeuspitar">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Zeuspitar-2008-04-21T21:22:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-21T10:22:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:22, 21 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zeuspitar-2008-04-21T21:22:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-21T10:22:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zeuspitar-2008-04-21T21:22:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-21T10:22:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T21:31:00.000Z-More"></span>Hi guys, instead of telling me what Wikipedia is not, why don't you read it for yourself. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NOT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NOT">WP:NOT</a> </p><p>Its primary method of determining consensus is discussion, not voting. </p><p>Wikipedia is not a place to hold grudges, import personal conflicts, or nurture hatred or fear. Making personal battles out of Wikipedia discussions goes directly against our policies and goals. </p><p>Disagreements should be resolved through consensus-based discussion, rather than through tightly sticking to rules and procedures. </p><p>I do not have a problem in arriving at consensus and accepting what you are claiming to be one of the versions of academic presentation, as long as you do not turn it into place to hold grudges and import personal conflicts. If at any stage I was in that position, I apologize. Vast majority of Vedic pages completely unreferenced, why don't you make it a little more referenced instead of making a 500 year old tradition into a wikifringe? <span style="font-family:Tahoma;"><a href="/wiki/User:Wikidas" title="User:Wikidas">Wikidās ॐ</a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T21:31:00.000Z-More" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:31, 21 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T21:31:00.000Z-More"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T21:31:00.000Z-More"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T21:31:00.000Z-More-1"></span>--<span style="font-family:Tahoma;"><a href="/wiki/User:Wikidas" title="User:Wikidas">Wikidās ॐ</a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T21:31:00.000Z-More-1" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:31, 21 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T21:31:00.000Z-More-1"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T21:31:00.000Z-More-1"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Abecedare-2008-04-21T22:06:00.000Z-More"></span>Unfortunately, <a href="/wiki/User:Wikidas" title="User:Wikidas">User:Wikidas</a> continues to misrepresent sources to push his POV. In the latest instance <a href="/wiki/User:Ism_schism" title="User:Ism schism">User:Ism_schism</a> helpfully dug up the following quote from Gavin Flood on <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Krishna&curid=173982&diff=207203411&oldid=207075780">[5]</a>: </p> <blockquote> <p>Early Vaishnava worship focuses on three deities who become fused together, namely Vasudeva-Krishna, Krishna-Gopala and Narayana, who in turn all become identified with Vishnu. Put simply, Vasudeva-Krishna and Krishna-Gopala were worshiped by groups generally refered to as Bhagavatas, while Narayana was worshipped by the Pancaratra sect. </p> </blockquote> <p>Instead of actually reading the <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://books.google.com/books?id=KpIWhKnYmF0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=gavin+flood&sig=q_waAYpO_WokCivKS2OtlwsG2dw#PPA118,M1">text</a> (to which Ism schism even provided a link), Wikidas simply used the quote to cite two tangential claims in <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Svayam_bhagavan&diff=prev&oldid=207216324">Swayam bhagavan</a> and <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bhagavata&diff=prev&oldid=207216566">Bhagavata</a>. We have seen similar conduct before with him misciting Radhakrishna and Moore (he now says that he <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Hinduism-related_topics_notice_board&diff=prev&oldid=207086043">does not accept their views</a>) and Winternitz. Any suggestions on how to stop such disruptive behavior ? <a href="/wiki/User:Abecedare" title="User:Abecedare">Abecedare</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Abecedare" title="User talk:Abecedare">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Abecedare-2008-04-21T22:06:00.000Z-More" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:06, 21 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Abecedare-2008-04-21T22:06:00.000Z-More"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Abecedare-2008-04-21T22:06:00.000Z-More"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zeuspitar-2008-04-21T22:28:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-21T22:06:00.000Z"></span>What do you guys want to do? I'll go alot with ANY thing you guys suggest. I think we should have done some thing about this a month ago. We need to do some thing very soon. And, we have to be on guard for situations like this in the future, with people like this.<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Zeuspitar&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Zeuspitar (page does not exist)">Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Zeuspitar" title="User talk:Zeuspitar">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Zeuspitar-2008-04-21T22:28:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-21T22:06:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:28, 21 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zeuspitar-2008-04-21T22:28:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-21T22:06:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zeuspitar-2008-04-21T22:28:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-21T22:06:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zeuspitar-2008-04-21T22:50:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-21T22:06:00.000Z"></span>This book of Gavin D. Flood is perposterous! I have never heard of these claims before in my life. I am going ask some real Hindu pandit and every Hindu that I know what they think of this. And, this wikidas fellow is hypotized by this book. He is using it because it backs his non-sense ideas. I think that Gavin D. flood holds some the same group ideas as wikidas.<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Zeuspitar&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Zeuspitar (page does not exist)">Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Zeuspitar" title="User talk:Zeuspitar">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Zeuspitar-2008-04-21T22:50:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-21T22:06:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:50, 21 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zeuspitar-2008-04-21T22:50:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-21T22:06:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zeuspitar-2008-04-21T22:50:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-21T22:06:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T23:25:00.000Z-Zeuspitar-2008-04-21T22:50:00.000Z"></span>I think the two above posts are clearly <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTBATTLEGROUND" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NOTBATTLEGROUND">WP:NOTBATTLEGROUND</a>, I can understand why - he attacks constantly: (<a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Zeuspitar&curid=16076672&diff=207061636&oldid=206269791">[6]</a>, <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ASvayam_bhagavan&diff=207231975&oldid=207229895">[7]</a>, <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Wikidas&diff=prev&oldid=206257766">[8]</a> <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:DaGizza&diff=prev&oldid=205607100">[9]</a> <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Wikidas&diff=prev&oldid=205579262">[10]</a> <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Zeuspitar&diff=prev&oldid=205623761">[11]</a> <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bhakti_movement&diff=prev&oldid=196451553">[12]</a> <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Vaishnavism/Archive_1&action=edit&section=14">[13]</a> Everyone, if he thinks they are ISKCON... and <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Venkateswara&diff=prev&oldid=195842421">[14]</a> when he finds out they know nothing about our philosophy - he is apologizing... <span style="font-family:Tahoma;"><a href="/wiki/User:Wikidas" title="User:Wikidas">Wikidās ॐ</a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T23:25:00.000Z-Zeuspitar-2008-04-21T22:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:25, 21 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T23:25:00.000Z-Zeuspitar-2008-04-21T22:50:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T23:25:00.000Z-Zeuspitar-2008-04-21T22:50:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Abecedare-2008-04-21T23:00:00.000Z-Zeuspitar-2008-04-21T22:50:00.000Z"></span>GRd, The Flood book is a perfectly good , and often used, source for Hinduism related articles - it is just being used to support some claims it does not make. Also please do not generalize the problem with one user to criticism of ISKCON - the problem is not Wikidas' views or beliefs, but his editing. Thanks. <a href="/wiki/User:Abecedare" title="User:Abecedare">Abecedare</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Abecedare" title="User talk:Abecedare">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Abecedare-2008-04-21T23:00:00.000Z-Zeuspitar-2008-04-21T22:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Abecedare-2008-04-21T23:00:00.000Z-Zeuspitar-2008-04-21T22:50:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Abecedare-2008-04-21T23:00:00.000Z-Zeuspitar-2008-04-21T22:50:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T23:25:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-21T22:06:00.000Z"></span>Certainly try to improve my editing. Im learning for the last few months and appreciate constructive critical views. But its spoiled by personal and sectarian attacks. <span style="font-family:Tahoma;"><a href="/wiki/User:Wikidas" title="User:Wikidas">Wikidās ॐ</a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T23:25:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-21T22:06:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:25, 21 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T23:25:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-21T22:06:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T23:25:00.000Z-Abecedare-2008-04-21T22:06:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Relata_refero-2008-04-21T23:44:00.000Z-Wikidas-2008-04-21T23:25:00.000Z"></span>Please take this criticism on board. The most important thing to remember is that when adding material to Wikipedia (a) make sure you are familiar with <i>exact;y</i> what you are citing - in other words, have the passage before you and paraphrase it as correctly as possible, not in the light of what you believe to be true and (b) remember that your own opinions are one among many. Misrepresentation of sources, in particular, is problematic. --<span style="font-family:Georgia"><a href="/wiki/User:Relata_refero" title="User:Relata refero">Relata refero</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Relata_refero" title="User talk:Relata refero">disp.</a>)</span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Relata_refero-2008-04-21T23:44:00.000Z-Wikidas-2008-04-21T23:25:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:44, 21 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Relata_refero-2008-04-21T23:44:00.000Z-Wikidas-2008-04-21T23:25:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Relata_refero-2008-04-21T23:44:00.000Z-Wikidas-2008-04-21T23:25:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T23:53:00.000Z-More"></span>Thank you. That is most valuable comment from the whole discussion which was for the most of it counterproductive. <span style="font-family:Tahoma;"><a href="/wiki/User:Wikidas" title="User:Wikidas">Wikidās ॐ</a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T23:53:00.000Z-More" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:53, 21 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T23:53:00.000Z-More"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidas-2008-04-21T23:53:00.000Z-More"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Relata_refero-2008-04-22T00:09:00.000Z-Wikidas-2008-04-21T23:53:00.000Z"></span>Take the politer interventions above, those that focus on content and quoting, as indications of what the "mainstream" views are, and remember that WP should, and inevitably will, reflect those. You may still have valuable information to add if you keep that in mind at all times, as most of us do when editing material in which we do not share the majority view. --<span style="font-family:Georgia"><a href="/wiki/User:Relata_refero" title="User:Relata refero">Relata refero</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Relata_refero" title="User talk:Relata refero">disp.</a>)</span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Relata_refero-2008-04-22T00:09:00.000Z-Wikidas-2008-04-21T23:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:09, 22 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Relata_refero-2008-04-22T00:09:00.000Z-Wikidas-2008-04-21T23:53:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Relata_refero-2008-04-22T00:09:00.000Z-Wikidas-2008-04-21T23:53:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Pervasive" data-mw-thread-id="h-Pervasive-User:Wikidas-2008-04-22T06:04:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Pervasive-User:Wikidas-2008-04-22T06:04:00.000Z"></span>Pervasive<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Pervasive-User:Wikidas-2008-04-22T06:04:00.000Z"></span></h3></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Abecedare-2008-04-22T06:04:00.000Z-Pervasive"></span>I did a random survey of secondary sources added by <a href="/wiki/User:Wikidas" title="User:Wikidas">User:Wikidas</a> on the <a href="/wiki/Svayam_bhagavan" class="mw-redirect" title="Svayam bhagavan">Svayam bhagavan</a> (which is almost his solo-creation) and the results are <a href="/wiki/Talk:Svayam_bhagavan#Further_examples_of_irrelevant_or_misreprepresented_citations" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Svayam bhagavan">detailed here</a> (also see <a href="/wiki/Talk:Svayam_bhagavan#Citations_need_to_be_checked" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Svayam bhagavan">this</a> and <a href="/wiki/Talk:Krishna#Concerns_about_current_lede" title="Talk:Krishna">this</a> discussion). To summarize: </p> <ul><li>The problem of either misrepresenting sources, or adding irrelevant sources seems pervasive.</li> <li>It may effect multiple articles including <a href="/wiki/Bhagavata" class="mw-redirect" title="Bhagavata">Bhagavata</a>, <a href="/wiki/Vishnu" title="Vishnu">Vishnu</a>, <a href="/wiki/Krishna" title="Krishna">Krishna</a>, <a href="/wiki/Bhakti" title="Bhakti">Bhakti</a>, <a href="/wiki/Gaudiya_Vaishnavism" title="Gaudiya Vaishnavism">Gaudiya Vaishnavism</a>, <a href="/wiki/Vaishnavism" title="Vaishnavism">Vaishnavism</a>, since the editor has oftencut-and-pasted same content/references to multiple articles.</li></ul> <p>Note: I am not even commenting on grammar, tone, POV, UNDUE and OR issues since these are <i>relatively</i> easy to correct. Any ideas on how to undo the damage (do we need to remove all references added by user until verified independently), and prevent further disruption in the future ? <a href="/wiki/User:Abecedare" title="User:Abecedare">Abecedare</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Abecedare" title="User talk:Abecedare">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Abecedare-2008-04-22T06:04:00.000Z-Pervasive" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Abecedare-2008-04-22T06:04:00.000Z-Pervasive"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Abecedare-2008-04-22T06:04:00.000Z-Pervasive"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidas-2008-04-22T06:33:00.000Z-Pervasive"></span>I have posted my reply on the above. Does it have ANYTHING to do with this board? <span style="font-family:Tahoma;"><a href="/wiki/User:Wikidas" title="User:Wikidas">Wikidās ॐ</a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Wikidas-2008-04-22T06:33:00.000Z-Pervasive" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:33, 22 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidas-2008-04-22T06:33:00.000Z-Pervasive"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidas-2008-04-22T06:33:00.000Z-Pervasive"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidas-2008-04-22T08:07:00.000Z-Wikidas-2008-04-22T06:33:00.000Z"></span>Reply to the above was subsequently deleted by user Abecedare. <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ASvayam_bhagavan&diff=207303748&oldid=207302679">[15]</a>-<span style="font-family:Tahoma;"><a href="/wiki/User:Wikidas" title="User:Wikidas">Wikidās ॐ</a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Wikidas-2008-04-22T08:07:00.000Z-Wikidas-2008-04-22T06:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:07, 22 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidas-2008-04-22T08:07:00.000Z-Wikidas-2008-04-22T06:33:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidas-2008-04-22T08:07:00.000Z-Wikidas-2008-04-22T06:33:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:21:00.000Z-Pervasive"></span>to be fair, this did turn out to be a case more suited to the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RSN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RSN">WP:RSN</a>. These noticeboards often overlap in scope, and I wonder whether they could be merged beneficially. --<a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:21:00.000Z-Pervasive" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:21:00.000Z-Pervasive"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:21:00.000Z-Pervasive"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Alan_Bond_(rocket_developer)" data-mw-thread-id="h-Alan_Bond_(rocket_developer)-2008-04-22T10:37:00.000Z"><span id="Alan_Bond_.28rocket_developer.29"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Alan_Bond_(rocket_developer)-2008-04-22T10:37:00.000Z"></span><a href="/wiki/Alan_Bond_(rocket_developer)" class="mw-redirect" title="Alan Bond (rocket developer)">Alan Bond (rocket developer)</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Alan_Bond_(rocket_developer)-2008-04-22T10:37:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:37:00.000Z-Alan_Bond_(rocket_developer)"></span>An apparently bona fide engineer who has now begun "deciphering" cuneiform texts to find out the truth about Sodom and Gomorrah. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:37:00.000Z-Alan_Bond_(rocket_developer)" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:37, 22 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:37:00.000Z-Alan_Bond_(rocket_developer)"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:37:00.000Z-Alan_Bond_(rocket_developer)"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:50:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:37:00.000Z"></span>context: <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://web.mac.com/elleryfrahm/iWeb/GeoArchSci/Blog/7A0A81CD-7E06-43CA-A2BC-D290775A6196.html">[16]</a> "this is totally nuts." But there is a <a href="/wiki/University_of_Bristol" title="University of Bristol">University of Bristol</a> press release, which will make this difficult to keep off WP. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:50:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:37:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:50:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:37:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:50:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:37:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dougweller-2008-04-22T11:41:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:50:00.000Z"></span>It's already in the <a href="/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah" title="Sodom and Gomorrah">Sodom and Gomorrah</a> article put there by another editor, but I've placed the claim in context a couple of weeks ago, it's something I'd be following anyway - it is nonsense, as you know. Their book, interestingly enough, seems to be self-published. But thanks for bringing it up as the Alan Bond article needs some attention now as someone has added it there.--<a href="/wiki/User:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dougweller">Doug Weller</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Dougweller">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dougweller-2008-04-22T11:41:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:41, 22 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dougweller-2008-04-22T11:41:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:50:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dougweller-2008-04-22T11:41:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:50:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Dean_Radin" data-mw-thread-id="h-Dean_Radin-2008-04-10T23:27:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Dean_Radin-2008-04-10T23:27:00.000Z"></span>Dean Radin<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Dean_Radin-2008-04-10T23:27:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><a href="/wiki/Dean_Radin" title="Dean Radin"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-ScienceApologist-2008-04-10T23:27:00.000Z-Dean_Radin"></span>Dean Radin</a>. To read this article, you'd think this guy was the smartest guy ever to live. Not a hint of the basic issues he has had. Please help. <a href="/wiki/User:ScienceApologist" title="User:ScienceApologist">ScienceApologist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ScienceApologist" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:ScienceApologist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-ScienceApologist-2008-04-10T23:27:00.000Z-Dean_Radin" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:27, 10 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-ScienceApologist-2008-04-10T23:27:00.000Z-Dean_Radin"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-ScienceApologist-2008-04-10T23:27:00.000Z-Dean_Radin"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moreschi-2008-04-11T10:29:00.000Z-ScienceApologist-2008-04-10T23:27:00.000Z"></span>On a related note, perhaps <a href="/wiki/Brian_David_Josephson" class="mw-redirect" title="Brian David Josephson">Brian David Josephson</a> could do with a sentence or two <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/sep/30/robinmckie.theobserver">of criticism</a>? <a href="/wiki/User:Moreschi" title="User:Moreschi">Moreschi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moreschi" title="User talk:Moreschi">talk</a>) (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Folantin/Userspace_Folantin5&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin5 (page does not exist)">debate</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Moreschi-2008-04-11T10:29:00.000Z-ScienceApologist-2008-04-10T23:27:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:29, 11 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moreschi-2008-04-11T10:29:00.000Z-ScienceApologist-2008-04-10T23:27:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moreschi-2008-04-11T10:29:00.000Z-ScienceApologist-2008-04-10T23:27:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dougweller-2008-04-11T11:45:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-11T10:29:00.000Z"></span>It gets worse. See <a href="/wiki/Stargate_Project" title="Stargate Project">Stargate Project</a>. This may be useful.<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.skepdic.com/remotevw.html">[17]</a>. I'm away with intermittent access for a while now, but I may look at these again when I get back.<a href="/wiki/User:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dougweller">Doug Weller</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Dougweller">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dougweller-2008-04-11T11:45:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-11T10:29:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:45, 11 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dougweller-2008-04-11T11:45:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-11T10:29:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dougweller-2008-04-11T11:45:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-11T10:29:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dougweller-2008-04-23T15:54:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-04-11T11:45:00.000Z"></span>Someone is objecting to criticism of Dean Radin (well, to anything from a skeptical publication). I'd like to find some other references as well, but have had no luck yet.<a href="/wiki/User:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dougweller">Doug Weller</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Dougweller">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dougweller-2008-04-23T15:54:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-04-11T11:45:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:54, 23 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dougweller-2008-04-23T15:54:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-04-11T11:45:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dougweller-2008-04-23T15:54:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-04-11T11:45:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Uighurs" data-mw-thread-id="h-Uighurs-2008-04-22T10:18:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Uighurs-2008-04-22T10:18:00.000Z"></span>Uighurs<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Uighurs-2008-04-22T10:18:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:18:00.000Z-Uighurs"></span>Just in case anyone is interested, <a href="/wiki/User:FACT_NEEDED" title="User:FACT NEEDED">FACT NEEDED</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:FACT_NEEDED" title="User talk:FACT NEEDED">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/FACT_NEEDED" title="Special:Contributions/FACT NEEDED">contribs</a>) is a recent incarnation of the "zealous patriot contributing in broken English" type of account, in this case of an <a href="/wiki/Uighur" class="mw-redirect mw-disambig" title="Uighur">Uighur</a> flavour. Nothing urgent. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:18:00.000Z-Uighurs" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:18, 22 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:18:00.000Z-Uighurs"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:18:00.000Z-Uighurs"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moreschi-2008-04-23T08:44:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:18:00.000Z"></span>Will monitor with a loose eye. <a href="/wiki/User:Moreschi" title="User:Moreschi">Moreschi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moreschi" title="User talk:Moreschi">talk</a>) (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Folantin/Userspace_Folantin5&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin5 (page does not exist)">debate</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Moreschi-2008-04-23T08:44:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:44, 23 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moreschi-2008-04-23T08:44:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:18:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moreschi-2008-04-23T08:44:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-22T10:18:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Robert_F._Kennedy_assassination" data-mw-thread-id="h-Robert_F._Kennedy_assassination-2008-04-22T18:17:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Robert_F._Kennedy_assassination-2008-04-22T18:17:00.000Z"></span><a href="/wiki/Robert_F._Kennedy_assassination" class="mw-redirect" title="Robert F. Kennedy assassination">Robert F. Kennedy assassination</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Robert_F._Kennedy_assassination-2008-04-22T18:17:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jehochman-2008-04-22T18:17:00.000Z-Robert_F._Kennedy_assassination"></span>I am concerned that this article has become bloated with <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR">original research</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:V" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:V">unverified information</a> and outright <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:FRINGE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:FRINGE">conspiracy theories</a>. Do we have any volunteers who would like to review this article and help improve it? <a href="/wiki/User:Jehochman" title="User:Jehochman">Jehochman</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jehochman" title="User talk:Jehochman">Talk</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Jehochman-2008-04-22T18:17:00.000Z-Robert_F._Kennedy_assassination" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jehochman-2008-04-22T18:17:00.000Z-Robert_F._Kennedy_assassination"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jehochman-2008-04-22T18:17:00.000Z-Robert_F._Kennedy_assassination"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Fritzpoll-2008-04-22T23:51:00.000Z-Jehochman-2008-04-22T18:17:00.000Z"></span>I'll take a look at it during my lunch break at work tomorrow <a href="/wiki/User:Fritzpoll" title="User:Fritzpoll">Fritzpoll</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fritzpoll" title="User talk:Fritzpoll">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Fritzpoll-2008-04-22T23:51:00.000Z-Jehochman-2008-04-22T18:17:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:51, 22 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Fritzpoll-2008-04-22T23:51:00.000Z-Jehochman-2008-04-22T18:17:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Fritzpoll-2008-04-22T23:51:00.000Z-Jehochman-2008-04-22T18:17:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Fritzpoll-2008-04-27T23:23:00.000Z-Jehochman-2008-04-22T18:17:00.000Z"></span>This article has now been substantially updated, but needs more eyes in it to examine if the extent of my correction is sufficient, or was too severe. Best wishes <a href="/wiki/User:Fritzpoll" title="User:Fritzpoll">Fritzpoll</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fritzpoll" title="User talk:Fritzpoll">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Fritzpoll-2008-04-27T23:23:00.000Z-Jehochman-2008-04-22T18:17:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:23, 27 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Fritzpoll-2008-04-27T23:23:00.000Z-Jehochman-2008-04-22T18:17:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Fritzpoll-2008-04-27T23:23:00.000Z-Jehochman-2008-04-22T18:17:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Laz" data-mw-thread-id="h-Laz-2008-04-27T11:57:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Laz-2008-04-27T11:57:00.000Z"></span>Laz<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Laz-2008-04-27T11:57:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><a href="/wiki/User:Kolkhianboy" title="User:Kolkhianboy"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moreschi-2008-04-27T11:57:00.000Z-Laz"></span>Kolkhianboy</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kolkhianboy" title="User talk:Kolkhianboy">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Kolkhianboy" title="Special:Contributions/Kolkhianboy">contribs</a>), previously a bunch of quite disruptive IPs until I semiprotected all of his favourite articles, is a displaying some worrying tendencies towards ethnic chauvinism of a <a href="/wiki/Laz_people" title="Laz people">Laz</a> variety. <a href="/wiki/Laz_language" title="Laz language">Laz language</a> has also been affected, possibly others. Nothing massively urgent but something that needs monitoring. <a href="/wiki/User:Moreschi" title="User:Moreschi">Moreschi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moreschi" title="User talk:Moreschi">talk</a>) (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Folantin/Userspace_Folantin5&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin5 (page does not exist)">debate</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Moreschi-2008-04-27T11:57:00.000Z-Laz" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:57, 27 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moreschi-2008-04-27T11:57:00.000Z-Laz"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moreschi-2008-04-27T11:57:00.000Z-Laz"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Atlas_Orthogonal_Chiropractic_Technique" data-mw-thread-id="h-Atlas_Orthogonal_Chiropractic_Technique-2008-04-28T14:10:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Atlas_Orthogonal_Chiropractic_Technique-2008-04-28T14:10:00.000Z"></span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Atlas_Orthogonal_Chiropractic_Technique&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Atlas Orthogonal Chiropractic Technique (page does not exist)">Atlas Orthogonal Chiropractic Technique</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Atlas_Orthogonal_Chiropractic_Technique-2008-04-28T14:10:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-28T14:10:00.000Z-Atlas_Orthogonal_Chiropractic_Technique"></span>Written from an in-universe (in chiropractic) perspective.<a href="/wiki/User:Itsmejudith" title="User:Itsmejudith">Itsmejudith</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Itsmejudith" title="User talk:Itsmejudith">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-28T14:10:00.000Z-Atlas_Orthogonal_Chiropractic_Technique" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:10, 28 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-28T14:10:00.000Z-Atlas_Orthogonal_Chiropractic_Technique"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-28T14:10:00.000Z-Atlas_Orthogonal_Chiropractic_Technique"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moreschi-2008-04-29T09:02:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-28T14:10:00.000Z"></span>Ouch. Another NPOV-free zone. I've cut all the fluff down to a one-sentence stub. Someone who doesn't have a conflict of interest (as I suspect recent authors of having) might like to rebuild. <a href="/wiki/User:Moreschi" title="User:Moreschi">Moreschi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moreschi" title="User talk:Moreschi">talk</a>) (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Folantin/Userspace_Folantin5&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin5 (page does not exist)">debate</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Moreschi-2008-04-29T09:02:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-28T14:10:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:02, 29 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moreschi-2008-04-29T09:02:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-28T14:10:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moreschi-2008-04-29T09:02:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-28T14:10:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-29T10:20:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-29T09:02:00.000Z"></span>Neat solution, thanks. <a href="/wiki/User:Itsmejudith" title="User:Itsmejudith">Itsmejudith</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Itsmejudith" title="User talk:Itsmejudith">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-29T10:20:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-29T09:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:20, 29 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-29T10:20:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-29T09:02:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-29T10:20:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-29T09:02:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moreschi-2008-04-29T10:30:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-29T10:20:00.000Z"></span>No problem, assuming this technique is actually <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NOTE">notable</a> in the first place? <a href="/wiki/User:Moreschi" title="User:Moreschi">Moreschi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moreschi" title="User talk:Moreschi">talk</a>) (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Folantin/Userspace_Folantin5&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin5 (page does not exist)">debate</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Moreschi-2008-04-29T10:30:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-29T10:20:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:30, 29 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moreschi-2008-04-29T10:30:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-29T10:20:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moreschi-2008-04-29T10:30:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-29T10:20:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-29T11:34:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-29T10:30:00.000Z"></span>I tagged it for merger with <a href="/wiki/Chiropractic" title="Chiropractic">Chiropractic</a>. I also noted that the first version of the article has copyvio written all over it.<a href="/wiki/User:Itsmejudith" title="User:Itsmejudith">Itsmejudith</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Itsmejudith" title="User talk:Itsmejudith">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-29T11:34:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-29T10:30:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:34, 29 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-29T11:34:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-29T10:30:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-29T11:34:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-29T10:30:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="AIDS_reappraisal_redux" data-mw-thread-id="h-AIDS_reappraisal_redux-2008-04-28T18:17:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-AIDS_reappraisal_redux-2008-04-28T18:17:00.000Z"></span>AIDS reappraisal redux<span data-mw-comment-end="h-AIDS_reappraisal_redux-2008-04-28T18:17:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MastCell-2008-04-28T18:17:00.000Z-AIDS_reappraisal_redux"></span>I'd like to once again request some additional input at <a href="/wiki/AIDS_reappraisal" class="mw-redirect" title="AIDS reappraisal">AIDS reappraisal</a> and perhaps some additional eyes on <a href="/wiki/Zidovudine" title="Zidovudine">zidovudine</a> as well. A number of recurrent issues have flared up, including whether AIDS denialism is opposed by "the scientific community", or simply "a majority of the scientific community". To avoid this becoming a two-person back-and-forth, I'd like to invite outside input. There are multiple active threads at <a href="/wiki/Talk:AIDS_reappraisal" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:AIDS reappraisal">Talk:AIDS reappraisal</a> started in the past few days. <b><a href="/wiki/User:MastCell" title="User:MastCell">MastCell</a></b> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:MastCell" title="User talk:MastCell">Talk</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-MastCell-2008-04-28T18:17:00.000Z-AIDS_reappraisal_redux" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:17, 28 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MastCell-2008-04-28T18:17:00.000Z-AIDS_reappraisal_redux"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MastCell-2008-04-28T18:17:00.000Z-AIDS_reappraisal_redux"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moreschi-2008-04-29T14:37:00.000Z-MastCell-2008-04-28T18:17:00.000Z"></span>Eh, I think "scientific community" is fine. This is surely even more obvious than homeopathy. It's <a href="/wiki/User:Moreschi/Wikithoughts,_Wikimorality,_Wikiphilosophies" title="User:Moreschi/Wikithoughts, Wikimorality, Wikiphilosophies">Number 46, part 1</a>. Speaking as Mr Joe Public, I couldn't name one AIDS denialist, but then why should I memorise the names of cranks? <a href="/wiki/User:Moreschi" title="User:Moreschi">Moreschi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moreschi" title="User talk:Moreschi">talk</a>) (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Folantin/Userspace_Folantin5&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin5 (page does not exist)">debate</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Moreschi-2008-04-29T14:37:00.000Z-MastCell-2008-04-28T18:17:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:37, 29 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moreschi-2008-04-29T14:37:00.000Z-MastCell-2008-04-28T18:17:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moreschi-2008-04-29T14:37:00.000Z-MastCell-2008-04-28T18:17:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id=""$ETHNIC_warfare"" data-mw-thread-id="h-"$ETHNIC_warfare"-2008-03-29T18:46:00.000Z"><span id=".22.24ETHNIC_warfare.22"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-"$ETHNIC_warfare"-2008-03-29T18:46:00.000Z"></span>"$ETHNIC warfare"<span data-mw-comment-end="h-"$ETHNIC_warfare"-2008-03-29T18:46:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-03-29T18:46:00.000Z-"$ETHNIC_warfare""></span>I've found a new popular outlet for testosterone-imbued ethnic nationalism.... articles on <a href="/wiki/Ancient_warfare" title="Ancient warfare">ancient warfare</a>! </p><p>We have <a href="/wiki/Celtic_warfare" class="mw-redirect" title="Celtic warfare">Celtic warfare</a> (<i>and</i> <a href="/wiki/Gaelic_warfare" title="Gaelic warfare">Gaelic warfare</a>), <a href="/wiki/Illyrian_warfare" title="Illyrian warfare">Illyrian warfare</a>, <a href="/wiki/Assyrian_warfare" class="mw-redirect" title="Assyrian warfare">Assyrian warfare</a>, <a href="/wiki/Military_history_of_Iran" title="Military history of Iran">Military history of Iran</a>, <a href="/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_army" title="Ancient Macedonian army">Ancient Macedonian army</a>/<a href="/wiki/Hellenistic_armies" title="Hellenistic armies">Hellenistic armies</a>. Not all these articles are terrible. But they need supervision. It is also clear at a glance that the same nationalisms that give us grief elsewhere result in poorer "Ancient warfare" articles. Unsurprisingly, of course. I can only state my puzzlement over the fact that Ararat arev hasn't given us a glowing account of <a href="/w/index.php?title=Armenian_warfare&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Armenian warfare (page does not exist)">Armenian warfare</a> yet :) <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-03-29T18:46:00.000Z-"$ETHNIC_warfare"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:46, 29 March 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-03-29T18:46:00.000Z-"$ETHNIC_warfare""></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-03-29T18:46:00.000Z-"$ETHNIC_warfare""></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Varoon_Arya-2008-03-30T12:10:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-03-29T18:46:00.000Z"></span>"In massed fighting however, the Gauls' rudimentary organization and tactics fared poorly against <b>the well oiled machinery that was the <a href="/wiki/Roman_infantry_tactics#Roman_infantry_versus_Gallic_and_the_Germanic_tribes" title="Roman infantry tactics">Legion</a></b>."</dd> <dd>So, where do I enlist? :) <a href="/wiki/User:Varoon_Arya" title="User:Varoon Arya">Aryaman</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Varoon_Arya" title="User talk:Varoon Arya">(☼)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Varoon_Arya-2008-03-30T12:10:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-03-29T18:46:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:10, 30 March 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Varoon_Arya-2008-03-30T12:10:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-03-29T18:46:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Varoon_Arya-2008-03-30T12:10:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-03-29T18:46:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-81.99.113.232-2008-04-03T21:35:00.000Z-Varoon_Arya-2008-03-30T12:10:00.000Z"></span>Mr A. Arev has slipped up there, evidently :)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Illyrian_warfare" title="Illyrian warfare">Illyrian warfare</a> doesn't look so bad (surprisingly), but <a href="/wiki/Military_history_of_Iran" title="Military history of Iran">Military history of Iran</a> is complete dross. We don't get many Iranian-history articles of high quality, it would seem. Pity. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.99.113.232" title="Special:Contributions/81.99.113.232">81.99.113.232</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:81.99.113.232" title="User talk:81.99.113.232">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-81.99.113.232-2008-04-03T21:35:00.000Z-Varoon_Arya-2008-03-30T12:10:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:35, 3 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-81.99.113.232-2008-04-03T21:35:00.000Z-Varoon_Arya-2008-03-30T12:10:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-81.99.113.232-2008-04-03T21:35:00.000Z-Varoon_Arya-2008-03-30T12:10:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><a href="/wiki/Gaelic_Warfare" class="mw-redirect" title="Gaelic Warfare"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Paul_S-2008-04-30T16:31:00.000Z-"$ETHNIC_warfare""></span>Gaelic Warfare</a> I noticed a while ago that German Wikipedia's section on Celtic Warfare had suffered from someone taking sections of the <i>Europa Barbarorum</i> mod for the game <i>Rome Total War</i> as gospel and faithfully copying them into Wikipedia(!) It appears from references to bronze scale armour that this could also have happened in the English version's Gaelic Warfare section. This isn't 'testosterone-imbued ethnic nationalism' however, just extreme naivety. See also <a href="/wiki/Cassi" title="Cassi">Cassi</a> for similar. <a href="/wiki/User:Paul_S" title="User:Paul S">Paul S</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paul_S" title="User talk:Paul S">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Paul_S-2008-04-30T16:31:00.000Z-"$ETHNIC_warfare"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:31, 30 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Paul_S-2008-04-30T16:31:00.000Z-"$ETHNIC_warfare""></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Paul_S-2008-04-30T16:31:00.000Z-"$ETHNIC_warfare""></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Armenian_update" data-mw-thread-id="h-Armenian_update-2008-04-23T08:10:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Armenian_update-2008-04-23T08:10:00.000Z"></span>Armenian update<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Armenian_update-2008-04-23T08:10:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moreschi-2008-04-23T10:19:00.000Z-Armenian_update"></span>Ararat arev doesn't give up. What a loser. The time he invested into wasting ours could have gone into building an extensive website of his own by now. Armenian "antiquity frenzy" tidbits keep turning up all over the place. Recent finds include </p> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Ancient_peoples_of_Armenia" title="Category:Ancient peoples of Armenia">Category:Ancient peoples of Armenia</a> (<a href="/wiki/Oodians" title="Oodians">Oodians</a>, <a href="/wiki/Amazons" title="Amazons">Amazons</a>(!), ...)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Category:Hayasa" title="Category:Hayasa">Category:Hayasa</a> (<a href="/wiki/Hittite-Hayasa_War" class="mw-redirect" title="Hittite-Hayasa War">Hittite-Hayasa War</a> - redirected)</li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>And on the Ararat arev front, <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Andranikpasha&diff=207448659&oldid=203805216">some evidence our extensive semi-protections are working!</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Moreschi" title="User:Moreschi">Moreschi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moreschi" title="User talk:Moreschi">talk</a>) (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Folantin/Userspace_Folantin5&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin5 (page does not exist)">debate</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Moreschi-2008-04-23T10:19:00.000Z-Armenian_update" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moreschi-2008-04-23T10:19:00.000Z-Armenian_update"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moreschi-2008-04-23T10:19:00.000Z-Armenian_update"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Categories" data-mw-thread-id="h-Categories-Armenian_update-2008-04-23T08:10:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Categories-Armenian_update-2008-04-23T08:10:00.000Z"></span>Categories<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Categories-Armenian_update-2008-04-23T08:10:00.000Z"></span></h3></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T08:10:00.000Z-Categories"></span>btw, why is there a category <a href="/w/index.php?title=Category:Greek_mythological_Amazons&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Category:Greek mythological Amazons (page does not exist)">Category:Greek mythological Amazons</a> and why is it in <a href="/wiki/Category:Eurasian_nomads" title="Category:Eurasian nomads">Category:Eurasian nomads</a>? Creating new categories is far too easy, and we have tons of useless or worse categories nobody ever noticed. We need an efficient approach to deleting and merging such. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T08:10:00.000Z-Categories" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:10, 23 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T08:10:00.000Z-Categories"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T08:10:00.000Z-Categories"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T08:36:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T08:10:00.000Z"></span>Strongly agree. Relata and I have just been dragged through a particularly pointless dispute on <a href="/wiki/1066_Granada_massacre" title="1066 Granada massacre">1066 Granada massacre</a> where some editors were trying add the article to the [[Category:Islam and antisemitism]] as a form of POV-pushing. People feel free to act in this way because there is no requirement for a good source to justify the addition of an article to a category. What sort of efficient approach did you have in mind? <a href="/wiki/User:Itsmejudith" title="User:Itsmejudith">Itsmejudith</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Itsmejudith" title="User talk:Itsmejudith">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T08:36:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T08:10:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:36, 23 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T08:36:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T08:10:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T08:36:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T08:10:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-23T15:51:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T08:36:00.000Z"></span>Actually, the "debate" there was about the removal of that category, which had been added long before. It got confused by three factors: a meta-debate on whether the category itself was sensible (or needed redefinition); how in fact the existing criteria were being applied; and the participation of known long-term disruptive editors. <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-23T15:51:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T08:36:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:51, 23 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-23T15:51:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T08:36:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-23T15:51:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T08:36:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T10:09:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T08:36:00.000Z"></span>the problem is, how to get rid of a category once it has been created? It is tedious to speedily delete a category: All articles in it need to be recategorized. I am not sure if it is considered good practice to just redirect a category. This is for pointless categories. Undue categorization of articles within bona fide categories is another matter. I am not sure if we need a <a href="/wiki/Category:Islam_and_antisemitism" title="Category:Islam and antisemitism">Category:Islam and antisemitism</a>, but if we do, inclusion criteria need to be strict. <a href="/wiki/Category:LGBT_people" title="Category:LGBT people">Category:LGBT people</a> has a similar history of disputed inclusions. Generally speaking, inclusion of an article in a category that isn't backed up by explicit justification in the article body should be reverted. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T10:09:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T08:36:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:09, 23 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T10:09:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T08:36:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T10:09:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T08:36:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moreschi-2008-04-23T10:19:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T10:09:00.000Z"></span>We also have a <a href="/wiki/Category:Anti-Islam_sentiment" title="Category:Anti-Islam sentiment">Category:Anti-Islam sentiment</a>. What joys!</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>As regards speedy deletions of categories, I think <a href="/wiki/User:Cydebot" title="User:Cydebot">User:Cydebot</a> is supposed to remove deleted categories from articles, but that works off <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CFD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CFD">CFD</a> and may not cover categories that have been zipped without a CSD. <a href="/wiki/User:Moreschi" title="User:Moreschi">Moreschi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moreschi" title="User talk:Moreschi">talk</a>) (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Folantin/Userspace_Folantin5&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin5 (page does not exist)">debate</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Moreschi-2008-04-23T10:19:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T10:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moreschi-2008-04-23T10:19:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T10:09:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moreschi-2008-04-23T10:19:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T10:09:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-23T13:08:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-23T10:19:00.000Z"></span>Actually, <a href="/wiki/Category:Anti-Islam_sentiment" title="Category:Anti-Islam sentiment">Category:Anti-Islam sentiment</a> is really <a href="/wiki/Category:Islamophobia" title="Category:Islamophobia">Category:Islamophobia</a>. I found this out on the talk page, and got agreement on a somewhat better wording for the category page to clarify that they are one and the same (here on WP, that is). <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-23T13:08:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-23T10:19:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-23T13:08:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-23T10:19:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-23T13:08:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-23T10:19:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T14:22:00.000Z-Categories"></span>re "Greek mythological Amazons", I seem to have traced the idea that there were any <i>non</i>-"Greek mythological" Amazons (which would necessitate the distinction) to <a href="/wiki/User:Doug_Coldwell" title="User:Doug Coldwell">Doug Coldwell</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Doug_Coldwell" title="User talk:Doug Coldwell">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Doug_Coldwell" title="Special:Contributions/Doug Coldwell">contribs</a>) -- no doubt an excellent editor who in 2007 worked on the topic <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Orithya&oldid=175691677">[18]</a>, see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Megullia_Dotata" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Megullia Dotata">Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Megullia Dotata</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T14:22:00.000Z-Categories" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:22, 23 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T14:22:00.000Z-Categories"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T14:22:00.000Z-Categories"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Folantin-2008-04-23T14:29:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T14:22:00.000Z"></span>"Wikipedia will never be free until the last Categoriser is strangled with the entrails of the last Infoboxer". --<a href="/wiki/User:Folantin" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Folantin">Folantin</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Folantin" title="User talk:Folantin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Folantin-2008-04-23T14:29:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T14:22:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Folantin-2008-04-23T14:29:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T14:22:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Folantin-2008-04-23T14:29:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T14:22:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T14:48:00.000Z-Folantin-2008-04-23T14:29:00.000Z"></span>Can we rename <a href="/w/index.php?title=Category:Greek_mythological_Amazons&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Category:Greek mythological Amazons (page does not exist)">Category:Greek mythological Amazons</a> to <a href="/wiki/Category:Amazons" title="Category:Amazons">Category:Amazons</a> and then articles on characters appearing in Boccacio's works (which could well be notable given B's cultural significance) could go in it alongside the Greek mythical ones and any other Amazons who crop up from time to time. The category will need a lot of policing since we don't want to include the likes of <a href="/wiki/Hillary_Clinton" title="Hillary Clinton">Hillary Clinton</a> simply because some journalist reached for the cliche. <a href="/wiki/User:Itsmejudith" title="User:Itsmejudith">Itsmejudith</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Itsmejudith" title="User talk:Itsmejudith">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T14:48:00.000Z-Folantin-2008-04-23T14:29:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:48, 23 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T14:48:00.000Z-Folantin-2008-04-23T14:29:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T14:48:00.000Z-Folantin-2008-04-23T14:29:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-John_Carter-2008-04-23T16:26:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T14:48:00.000Z"></span>In response to Folantin's imagery, yuck. And we do have characters like <a href="/wiki/Wonder_Woman" title="Wonder Woman">Wonder Woman</a> who could probably be called "Amazons" to be added. I remember there's also some speculation somewhere that Amazons may have been based on an African tribe which I read in I think <i><a href="/wiki/Flash_for_Freedom!" title="Flash for Freedom!">Flash for Freedom!</a></i>, but I don't remember the details right now. <a href="/wiki/User:John_Carter" title="User:John Carter">John Carter</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John_Carter" title="User talk:John Carter">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-John_Carter-2008-04-23T16:26:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T14:48:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:26, 23 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-John_Carter-2008-04-23T16:26:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T14:48:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-John_Carter-2008-04-23T16:26:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T14:48:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T16:46:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T14:48:00.000Z"></span>Folantin, I will report you for violation of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CIVIL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CIVIL">WP:CIVIL</a>! How dare you! <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T16:46:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T14:48:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:46, 23 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T16:46:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T14:48:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T16:46:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T14:48:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T16:46:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T14:48:00.000Z-1"></span>oh, I had understood "Greek mythological Amazons" to contrast with "historical (Scythian) Amazons", not with "metaphorical or pop-culture Amazons". For the latter, we have <a href="/w/index.php?title=Category:Fictional_women_soldiers_and_warriors&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Category:Fictional women soldiers and warriors (page does not exist)">Category:Fictional women soldiers and warriors</a>.</dd> <dd><s>(sob), I just saw <a href="/wiki/List_of_fictional_Amazons" class="mw-redirect" title="List of fictional Amazons">list of fictional Amazons</a>. This is so sad.</s> Btw, would the correct plural be "women soldiers" or just "woman soldiers"? My appositions senses are tingling. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T16:46:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T14:48:00.000Z-1" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:46, 23 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T16:46:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T14:48:00.000Z-1"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T16:46:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-23T14:48:00.000Z-1"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Folantin-2008-04-23T17:58:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T16:46:00.000Z"></span>John's <i>Flashman</i> reference is to the so-called <a href="/wiki/Dahomey_Amazons" title="Dahomey Amazons">Dahomey Amazons</a>, the actual, historical all-female bodyguard of the kings of Dahomey. --<a href="/wiki/User:Folantin" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Folantin">Folantin</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Folantin" title="User talk:Folantin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Folantin-2008-04-23T17:58:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T16:46:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:58, 23 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Folantin-2008-04-23T17:58:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T16:46:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Folantin-2008-04-23T17:58:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-04-23T16:46:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="More_Amazons" data-mw-thread-id="h-More_Amazons-Armenian_update-2008-04-30T08:35:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-More_Amazons-Armenian_update-2008-04-30T08:35:00.000Z"></span>More Amazons<span data-mw-comment-end="h-More_Amazons-Armenian_update-2008-04-30T08:35:00.000Z"></span></h3></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-30T08:35:00.000Z-More_Amazons"></span>ok, there appear to be a large number of <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Inuniverse" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Inuniverse">inuniverse</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> references to Amazons from Roman historiography. For two years(!) we claimed that <a href="/wiki/Eurypyle" title="Eurypyle">Eurypyle</a> "was the leader of an all female expedition against Babylonia. She captured the Amorite capital in 1760 B.C.E."<a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eurypyle&oldid=202132259">[19]</a>, which was linked from <a href="/wiki/Timeline_of_women_in_ancient_warfare" class="mw-redirect" title="Timeline of women in ancient warfare">Timeline of women in ancient warfare</a> since its inception in Nov 2006<a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Timeline_of_women_in_ancient_warfare&oldid=90175416">[20]</a>. This is appalling! The "source" we seem to be indebted to for this is <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFSalmonson,_Jessica_Amanda1991" class="citation book cs1">Salmonson, Jessica Amanda (1991). <i>The Encyclopedia of Amazons</i>. Paragon House. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/1-55778-420-5" title="Special:BookSources/1-55778-420-5"><bdi>1-55778-420-5</bdi></a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=The+Encyclopedia+of+Amazons&rft.pub=Paragon+House&rft.date=1991&rft.isbn=1-55778-420-5&rft.au=Salmonson%2C+Jessica+Amanda&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia%3AFringe+theories%2FNoticeboard%2FArchive+5" class="Z3988"></span>. This work is cited in dozens of other articles<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3Awikipedia.org+%22Encyclopedia+of+Amazons%22&btnG=Search">[21]</a>. This Amazon stuff has passed under the radar for too long and needs serious investigation. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-04-30T08:35:00.000Z-More_Amazons" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:35, 30 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-30T08:35:00.000Z-More_Amazons"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-04-30T08:35:00.000Z-More_Amazons"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="The_origins_of_the_Hyksos_-_more_Ararat_arev" data-mw-thread-id="h-The_origins_of_the_Hyksos_-_more_Ararat_arev-2008-04-25T09:35:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-The_origins_of_the_Hyksos_-_more_Ararat_arev-2008-04-25T09:35:00.000Z"></span><a href="/wiki/The_origins_of_the_Hyksos" class="mw-redirect" title="The origins of the Hyksos">The origins of the Hyksos</a> - more Ararat arev<span data-mw-comment-end="h-The_origins_of_the_Hyksos_-_more_Ararat_arev-2008-04-25T09:35:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moreschi-2008-04-25T09:35:00.000Z-The_origins_of_the_Hyksos_-_more_Ararat_arev"></span>I've just realised as I started to create a new section that this looks like another problem with Ararat arev. Using several IP addresses he's added something to <a href="/wiki/The_origins_of_the_Hyksos" class="mw-redirect" title="The origins of the Hyksos">The origins of the Hyksos</a> -- which looks like nonsense to me. Look at the edit history (where he is warring with someone else) and my comments on the talk page. He's non-responsive to my edit summaries but now I understand why. Can the page be semi-protected in some way? I'm not sure what to do with a disruptive editor like this. Thanks. </p> <dl><dd>Sigh...semiprotected. I don't understand this loony, I really don't. We nail him time and time over and he still doesn't give up. <a href="/wiki/User:Moreschi" title="User:Moreschi">Moreschi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moreschi" title="User talk:Moreschi">talk</a>) (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Folantin/Userspace_Folantin5&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin5 (page does not exist)">debate</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Moreschi-2008-04-25T09:35:00.000Z-The_origins_of_the_Hyksos_-_more_Ararat_arev" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:35, 25 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moreschi-2008-04-25T09:35:00.000Z-The_origins_of_the_Hyksos_-_more_Ararat_arev"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moreschi-2008-04-25T09:35:00.000Z-The_origins_of_the_Hyksos_-_more_Ararat_arev"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dougweller-2008-04-25T09:39:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-25T09:35:00.000Z"></span>Thanks, that was fast. The hardest people to deal with are those who are clueless about the subject. We've got a guy on <a href="/wiki/Megaliths" class="mw-redirect" title="Megaliths">megaliths</a> who thinks Barry Fell was a geologist who used linguistic experts to decipher languages and that some sort of experts should study megaliths for 'imprints' which will reveal all about their ritual uses before excavations. He clearly has no clue at all, doesn't do any research, and you just can't have a discussion with people like that.<a href="/wiki/User:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dougweller">Doug Weller</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Dougweller">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dougweller-2008-04-25T09:39:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-25T09:35:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:39, 25 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dougweller-2008-04-25T09:39:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-25T09:35:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dougweller-2008-04-25T09:39:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-25T09:35:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moreschi-2008-04-25T23:17:00.000Z-The_origins_of_the_Hyksos_-_more_Ararat_arev"></span>Ach. There are currently Armenian-antiquity-related edit wars breaking out on <a href="/wiki/Urartu" title="Urartu">Urartu</a> and <a href="/wiki/Hayasa-Azzi" title="Hayasa-Azzi">Hayasa-Azzi</a>, due in no small part to Ararat arev's prior contributions, which our other non-banned Armenian users have picked up on. This needs some attention. <a href="/wiki/User:Moreschi" title="User:Moreschi">Moreschi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moreschi" title="User talk:Moreschi">talk</a>) (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Folantin/Userspace_Folantin5&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin5 (page does not exist)">debate</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Moreschi-2008-04-25T23:17:00.000Z-The_origins_of_the_Hyksos_-_more_Ararat_arev" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:17, 25 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moreschi-2008-04-25T23:17:00.000Z-The_origins_of_the_Hyksos_-_more_Ararat_arev"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moreschi-2008-04-25T23:17:00.000Z-The_origins_of_the_Hyksos_-_more_Ararat_arev"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T23:35:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-25T23:17:00.000Z"></span>For one thing, the "History of Armenia" infoboxes will have to go. <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T23:35:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-25T23:17:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:35, 25 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T23:35:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-25T23:17:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T23:35:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-25T23:17:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moreschi-2008-04-25T23:55:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T23:35:00.000Z"></span>Now also edit-warring on <a href="/wiki/Nairi" title="Nairi">Nairi</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Moreschi" title="User:Moreschi">Moreschi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moreschi" title="User talk:Moreschi">talk</a>) (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Folantin/Userspace_Folantin5&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin5 (page does not exist)">debate</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Moreschi-2008-04-25T23:55:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T23:35:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:55, 25 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moreschi-2008-04-25T23:55:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T23:35:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moreschi-2008-04-25T23:55:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T23:35:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T02:10:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-25T23:55:00.000Z"></span>Good grief, 37 edits amounting to <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nairi&diff=208213139&oldid=207570600">this</a>, followed by <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nairi&diff=next&oldid=208213139">this</a>. That entire section of "Prehistoric Armenia" (an oxymoron) needs to be excised from that infobox. <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T02:10:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-25T23:55:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:10, 26 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T02:10:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-25T23:55:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T02:10:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-04-25T23:55:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-75.51.172.124-2008-04-26T13:57:00.000Z-The_origins_of_the_Hyksos_-_more_Ararat_arev"></span>Rudra, look at the <a href="/wiki/History_of_Iran" title="History of Iran">History of Iran</a> template! (here -> <a href="/wiki/Template:History_of_Iran" title="Template:History of Iran">Template:History_of_Iran</a>) It is from around <a href="/wiki/4000_BC" class="mw-redirect" title="4000 BC">4000 BC</a> in their template! Hah!. They have a long list of the cultures, tribes in ancient Iran there, before they arrived, starting from Proto-Elamite civilization in 3200 BC, yes in their template!. Are you saying <b>Persians</b> claim they are that much older? Persian kingdom (<b>Persians) started from 600 BC too</b>, they are putting their ancient history in their template, yes in their template, <b>and you are removing ours. </b> We have our long list of tribes and cultures in Armenia as well, starting from Neolithic, if you read in the History of Armenia section, and than Kuro-Araxes_culture, etc etc... </p><p>This is what it says-> "The history of Armenia begins with Neolithic cultures of the South Caucasus, such as the Shulaveri-Shomu culture, followed by the Bronze Age Kura-Araxes and Trialeti cultures." Where is this in our History of Armenia template? Why should History of Iran template have theirs and not us to have ours?? <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/75.51.172.124" title="Special:Contributions/75.51.172.124">75.51.172.124</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:75.51.172.124&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:75.51.172.124 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-75.51.172.124-2008-04-26T13:57:00.000Z-The_origins_of_the_Hyksos_-_more_Ararat_arev" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:57, 26 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-75.51.172.124-2008-04-26T13:57:00.000Z-The_origins_of_the_Hyksos_-_more_Ararat_arev"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-75.51.172.124-2008-04-26T13:57:00.000Z-The_origins_of_the_Hyksos_-_more_Ararat_arev"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T15:42:00.000Z-75.51.172.124-2008-04-26T13:57:00.000Z"></span>Ah yes, the old <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OTHERCRAP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OTHERCRAP">WP:OTHERCRAP</a> argument. Nice try. No dice. <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T15:42:00.000Z-75.51.172.124-2008-04-26T13:57:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:42, 26 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T15:42:00.000Z-75.51.172.124-2008-04-26T13:57:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T15:42:00.000Z-75.51.172.124-2008-04-26T13:57:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nicklausse-2008-04-26T16:38:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T15:42:00.000Z"></span>The Armenian topics navbox isn't any better, as "Hayasa", "Nairi" and "Urartu" are listed under "Armenian History". <a href="/wiki/User:Nicklausse" title="User:Nicklausse">Nicklausse</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nicklausse" title="User talk:Nicklausse">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Nicklausse-2008-04-26T16:38:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T15:42:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:38, 26 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nicklausse-2008-04-26T16:38:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T15:42:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nicklausse-2008-04-26T16:38:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T15:42:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Artene50-2008-04-27T06:34:00.000Z-75.51.172.124-2008-04-26T13:57:00.000Z"></span>What on earth is going on? Someone now claims that the long extinct c.3400 to c.2000 BC <a href="/wiki/Kura-Araxes_culture" class="mw-redirect" title="Kura-Araxes culture">Kura-Araxes culture</a> was Armenian by placing the "History of Armenia tag" on it. So, Armenians are 4000 to 5400 years old? Is this what Ararat Arev's POV ideas are all about? (I reverted the edit but wonder how long this will last!) As Dbachman rightly states in this article's discussion pages: "Combining the "Armenians" and the "Kura-Araxes culture" entries in the EIEC into a hodge-podge falls under <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SYN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SYN">WP:SYN</a>." It's OK to say that Kura-Araxes plays a role in the <a href="/wiki/Armenian_hypothesis" title="Armenian hypothesis">Armenian hypothesis</a> of their origin but not right, in my view, to then place a deeply intrusive "History of Armenia" tag on this article since an Armenian link to the long gone Kura-Araxes culture CAN'T be proven. What will Ararat Arev's backers claim next? That Adam and Eve were Armenian? This is getting a tad ridiculous! The problem lies partly with the broad and highly intrusive <i>"History of Armenia"</i> tag which places <a href="/wiki/Hayasa-Azzi" title="Hayasa-Azzi">Hayasa-Azzi</a>, Nairi and <a href="/wiki/Urartu" title="Urartu">Urartu</a> within it when their respective link to Armenia is either unclear (for Urartu) or non-existent for Hayasa-Azzi. I prefer Dbachman's approach--that they play a role in the <a href="/wiki/Armenian_hypothesis" title="Armenian hypothesis">Armenian hypothesis</a> instead of just pushing the "History of Armenia" tag on these 3 articles. Its more intellectually honest. <a href="/wiki/User:Artene50" title="User:Artene50">Artene50</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Artene50" title="User talk:Artene50">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Artene50-2008-04-27T06:34:00.000Z-75.51.172.124-2008-04-26T13:57:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:34, 27 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Artene50-2008-04-27T06:34:00.000Z-75.51.172.124-2008-04-26T13:57:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Artene50-2008-04-27T06:34:00.000Z-75.51.172.124-2008-04-26T13:57:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-02T14:52:00.000Z-The_origins_of_the_Hyksos_-_more_Ararat_arev"></span>calm down. This is Ararat arev, and the recommended course of action is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DENY" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DENY">WP:DENY</a>: revert and move on. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-05-02T14:52:00.000Z-The_origins_of_the_Hyksos_-_more_Ararat_arev" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:52, 2 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-02T14:52:00.000Z-The_origins_of_the_Hyksos_-_more_Ararat_arev"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-02T14:52:00.000Z-The_origins_of_the_Hyksos_-_more_Ararat_arev"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Input_requested_at_Dysgenics" data-mw-thread-id="h-Input_requested_at_Dysgenics-2008-04-29T14:49:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Input_requested_at_Dysgenics-2008-04-29T14:49:00.000Z"></span>Input requested at <a href="/wiki/Dysgenics" title="Dysgenics">Dysgenics</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Input_requested_at_Dysgenics-2008-04-29T14:49:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ramdrake-2008-04-29T14:49:00.000Z-Input_requested_at_Dysgenics"></span>There is an RfC currently open at <a href="/wiki/Dysgenics" title="Dysgenics">Dysgenics</a>, asking whether the article in question devotes too much space to a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:FRINGE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:FRINGE">WP:FRINGE</a> subject. A wider input would be appreciated at the <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dysgenics#Is_the_current_article_giving_too_much_weight_to_fringe_science.3F">RfC</a>. Thanks!--<a href="/wiki/User:Ramdrake" title="User:Ramdrake">Ramdrake</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ramdrake" title="User talk:Ramdrake">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Ramdrake-2008-04-29T14:49:00.000Z-Input_requested_at_Dysgenics" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:49, 29 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ramdrake-2008-04-29T14:49:00.000Z-Input_requested_at_Dysgenics"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ramdrake-2008-04-29T14:49:00.000Z-Input_requested_at_Dysgenics"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moreschi-2008-04-29T14:55:00.000Z-Ramdrake-2008-04-29T14:49:00.000Z"></span>This is part of the whole <a href="/wiki/Race_and_intelligence" title="Race and intelligence">Race and intelligence</a> shebang, starring <a href="/wiki/User:Jagz" title="User:Jagz">Jagz</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jagz" title="User talk:Jagz">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jagz" title="Special:Contributions/Jagz">contribs</a>) and <a href="/wiki/User:Zero_g" title="User:Zero g">Zero g</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Zero_g" title="User talk:Zero g">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Zero_g" title="Special:Contributions/Zero g">contribs</a>) in the main roles. I think I mostly get what's going on here, but would someone mind explaining for me in very simple English what the whole debate's about, just to make sure I fully understand the whole picture? <a href="/wiki/User:Moreschi" title="User:Moreschi">Moreschi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moreschi" title="User talk:Moreschi">talk</a>) (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Folantin/Userspace_Folantin5&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin5 (page does not exist)">debate</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Moreschi-2008-04-29T14:55:00.000Z-Ramdrake-2008-04-29T14:49:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:55, 29 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moreschi-2008-04-29T14:55:00.000Z-Ramdrake-2008-04-29T14:49:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moreschi-2008-04-29T14:55:00.000Z-Ramdrake-2008-04-29T14:49:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ramdrake-2008-04-29T15:04:00.000Z-Input_requested_at_Dysgenics"></span>As far as I can explain, they are positing that <i>dysgenics</i> has to do with the anti-eugenic effect of a higher comparative fertility rate of low-IQ people (in the USA, typically non-Whites) vs high-IQ people, therefore eventually bringing about a <i>dumbing-down</i> of humanity over the long term, and even the demise of civilisation. This fails to take into account that:</dd></dl></dd></dl> <ol><li>IQ scores as a rule have been increasing since we started measuring them 50-100 years ago (instead of decreasing)</li> <li><i>dysgenics</i> is a real medical term used for the study of mutations which deleteriously affect the survival of the organism.</li> <li>This hypothesis is forwarded by a very small group of researchers, basically a subgroup of the staunchest hereditarian researchers mentioned in the <a href="/wiki/Race_and_Intelligence" class="mw-redirect" title="Race and Intelligence">Race and Intelligence</a> article, foremost among them being JP Rushton himself.</li></ol> <p>Hope it helps.--<a href="/wiki/User:Ramdrake" title="User:Ramdrake">Ramdrake</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ramdrake" title="User talk:Ramdrake">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Ramdrake-2008-04-29T15:04:00.000Z-Input_requested_at_Dysgenics" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:04, 29 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ramdrake-2008-04-29T15:04:00.000Z-Input_requested_at_Dysgenics"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ramdrake-2008-04-29T15:04:00.000Z-Input_requested_at_Dysgenics"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-02T14:51:00.000Z-Input_requested_at_Dysgenics"></span>This seems to suffer badly from US-centrism. Is there any chance we can move this to <a href="/wiki/Genetic_deterioration" class="mw-redirect" title="Genetic deterioration">genetic deterioration</a> and focus on non-human populations, mentioning humans as a marginal special case, and relegate the whole Race and Intelligence stuff to where it belongs? If I want to read up on genetic deterioration, I am <b>not</b> interested in petty squabbling over "race and intelligence" debates in the US culture wars. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-05-02T14:51:00.000Z-Input_requested_at_Dysgenics" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:51, 2 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-02T14:51:00.000Z-Input_requested_at_Dysgenics"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-02T14:51:00.000Z-Input_requested_at_Dysgenics"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Particular_attribution_at_parapsychology" data-mw-thread-id="h-Particular_attribution_at_parapsychology-2008-04-30T21:58:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Particular_attribution_at_parapsychology-2008-04-30T21:58:00.000Z"></span>Particular attribution at parapsychology<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Particular_attribution_at_parapsychology-2008-04-30T21:58:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-ScienceApologist-2008-04-30T21:58:00.000Z-Particular_attribution_at_parapsychology"></span>What do you think? Is it only a few people who think that parapsychology is a pseudoscience? Certain people at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Parapsychology" title="Talk:Parapsychology">Talk:Parapsychology</a> are convinced of this and are not backing down. They reminded me of a proposal I made a while back to add a section to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:FRINGE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:FRINGE">WP:FRINGE</a> about particular attribution. So I was <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BOLD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BOLD">bold</a> and tried out some wording. More eyes are needed both there and at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:FRINGE#Appeal_to_particular_attribution" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:FRINGE">WT:FRINGE#Appeal to particular attribution</a>. Thanks. <a href="/wiki/User:ScienceApologist" title="User:ScienceApologist">ScienceApologist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ScienceApologist" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:ScienceApologist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-ScienceApologist-2008-04-30T21:58:00.000Z-Particular_attribution_at_parapsychology" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:58, 30 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-ScienceApologist-2008-04-30T21:58:00.000Z-Particular_attribution_at_parapsychology"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-ScienceApologist-2008-04-30T21:58:00.000Z-Particular_attribution_at_parapsychology"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-05-02T18:43:00.000Z-ScienceApologist-2008-04-30T21:58:00.000Z"></span>I thought that if scientists applied <a href="/wiki/Scientific_method" title="Scientific method">scientific method</a> to seeing whether purported paranormal effects were real, then that was called "parapsychology". Therefore it wouldn't be appropriate to label it pseudoscience. I'll have a look at the articles, but tell me if I'm wrong. <a href="/wiki/User:Itsmejudith" title="User:Itsmejudith">Itsmejudith</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Itsmejudith" title="User talk:Itsmejudith">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Itsmejudith-2008-05-02T18:43:00.000Z-ScienceApologist-2008-04-30T21:58:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:43, 2 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-05-02T18:43:00.000Z-ScienceApologist-2008-04-30T21:58:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Itsmejudith-2008-05-02T18:43:00.000Z-ScienceApologist-2008-04-30T21:58:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Antelan-2008-05-02T19:06:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-05-02T18:43:00.000Z"></span>The difference between science and pseudoscience is that the latter simply masquerades as the former. This makes it difficult to distinguish among the two at first glance - so indeed, you would have to spend some time reading up on the subject before you could decide whether you thought it was pseudoscience or not. That having been said, our opinions of the field itself are not particularly relevant. The question here is how the <i>attribution</i> of the "pseudoscience" label should be made. <a href="/wiki/User:Antelan" title="User:Antelan"><span style="color:#0000b0;">Antelan</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Antelan" title="User talk:Antelan"><sup style="color:#b00000;">talk</sup></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Antelan-2008-05-02T19:06:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-05-02T18:43:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:06, 2 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Antelan-2008-05-02T19:06:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-05-02T18:43:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Antelan-2008-05-02T19:06:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-05-02T18:43:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nealparr-2008-05-02T20:00:00.000Z-Antelan-2008-05-02T19:06:00.000Z"></span>I concur with that. No one involved in the discussion disagrees that it's been called pseudoscience, nor that the label belongs in the article as a notable view. It's the how of it that's being discussed. --<b><a href="/wiki/User:Nealparr" title="User:Nealparr"><span style="color:#000">Nealparr</span></a></b> <sup>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nealparr" title="User talk:Nealparr">talk to me</a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Nealparr-2008-05-02T20:00:00.000Z-Antelan-2008-05-02T19:06:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nealparr-2008-05-02T20:00:00.000Z-Antelan-2008-05-02T19:06:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nealparr-2008-05-02T20:00:00.000Z-Antelan-2008-05-02T19:06:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="http://phoenicia.org_as_a_source" data-mw-thread-id="h-http://phoenicia.org_as_a_source-2008-05-02T11:13:00.000Z"><span id="http:.2F.2Fphoenicia.org_as_a_source"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-http://phoenicia.org_as_a_source-2008-05-02T11:13:00.000Z"></span><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://phoenicia.org">http://phoenicia.org</a> as a source<span data-mw-comment-end="h-http://phoenicia.org_as_a_source-2008-05-02T11:13:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-02T11:13:00.000Z-http://phoenicia.org_as_a_source"></span>This website is used in quite a few articles. It's a personal website although with articles by other authors, arguing for Phoenicians in Brazil, Australia, etc (and of course they come from Atlantis). It also calls itself the "Virtual Center for Phoenician Studies" and "Encyclopedia Phoeniciana". I'm trying to do some cleanup. It seems used quite a bit in <a href="/wiki/Carthage" title="Carthage">Carthage</a> for instance. --<a href="/wiki/User:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dougweller">Doug Weller</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Dougweller">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dougweller-2008-05-02T11:13:00.000Z-http://phoenicia.org_as_a_source" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:13, 2 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-02T11:13:00.000Z-http://phoenicia.org_as_a_source"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dougweller-2008-05-02T11:13:00.000Z-http://phoenicia.org_as_a_source"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Blueboar-2008-05-02T16:54:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-02T11:13:00.000Z"></span>Looking at the "Who we are" page, it is definitely a personal site... and unless it the owner is reguarded as an expert in the field (which I doubt) it should not be considered RS. It <i>might</i> be OK as a convenience link to articles by noted scholars (if any of the authors who's works are copied fall into that category). <a href="/wiki/User:Blueboar" title="User:Blueboar">Blueboar</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Blueboar" title="User talk:Blueboar">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Blueboar-2008-05-02T16:54:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-02T11:13:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:54, 2 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Blueboar-2008-05-02T16:54:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-02T11:13:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Blueboar-2008-05-02T16:54:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-02T11:13:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-02T17:02:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-05-02T16:54:00.000Z"></span>Leaving aside the fact that a lot of the stuff there takes myths, the Bible, etc as history (and Atlantis), see <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://phoenicia.org/aramaicjesus.html">[22]</a> which at the bottom says "(Published in Kolo Suryoyo: April-May-June issue 2002. Number 136. Page 85 -- Reproduced without permission)". --<a href="/wiki/User:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dougweller">Doug Weller</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Dougweller">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dougweller-2008-05-02T17:02:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-05-02T16:54:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:02, 2 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-02T17:02:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-05-02T16:54:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dougweller-2008-05-02T17:02:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-05-02T16:54:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Blueboar-2008-05-02T18:42:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-02T17:02:00.000Z"></span>So its out even as a convenience link. Yuck. <a href="/wiki/User:Blueboar" title="User:Blueboar">Blueboar</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Blueboar" title="User talk:Blueboar">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Blueboar-2008-05-02T18:42:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-02T17:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:42, 2 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Blueboar-2008-05-02T18:42:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-02T17:02:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Blueboar-2008-05-02T18:42:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-02T17:02:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Pseudoscience_and_alternative_science" data-mw-thread-id="h-Pseudoscience_and_alternative_science-2008-05-02T12:50:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Pseudoscience_and_alternative_science-2008-05-02T12:50:00.000Z"></span>Pseudoscience and alternative science<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Pseudoscience_and_alternative_science-2008-05-02T12:50:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vassyana-2008-05-02T12:50:00.000Z-Pseudoscience_and_alternative_science"></span>I have asked ArbCom to endorse discretionary sanctions in pseudoscience and alternative science topics, broadly construed. See <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#Request_to_amend:_Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration.2FPseudoscience_and_Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration.2FMartinphi-ScienceApologist." class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration">Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#Request_to_amend:_Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration.2FPseudoscience_and_Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration.2FMartinphi-ScienceApologist.</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Vassyana" title="User:Vassyana">Vassyana</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Vassyana" title="User talk:Vassyana">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Vassyana-2008-05-02T12:50:00.000Z-Pseudoscience_and_alternative_science" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:50, 2 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vassyana-2008-05-02T12:50:00.000Z-Pseudoscience_and_alternative_science"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vassyana-2008-05-02T12:50:00.000Z-Pseudoscience_and_alternative_science"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="UN_Security_Council_Resolutions:_Are_they_binding_or_not?" data-mw-thread-id="h-UN_Security_Council_Resolutions:_Are_they_binding_or_not?-2008-04-25T02:38:00.000Z"><span id="UN_Security_Council_Resolutions:_Are_they_binding_or_not.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-UN_Security_Council_Resolutions:_Are_they_binding_or_not?-2008-04-25T02:38:00.000Z"></span>UN Security Council Resolutions: Are they binding or not?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-UN_Security_Council_Resolutions:_Are_they_binding_or_not?-2008-04-25T02:38:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-25T02:38:00.000Z-UN_Security_Council_Resolutions:_Are_they_binding_or_not?"></span>I was wondering if I could get your take on whether UNSC resolutions should be described as binding or non-binding if the aren't taken under Chapter 7 of the UN charter? They are currently described as somewhat non-binding however this contradicts what the UN itself would tell you if you went on a tour of the UN. This originally came to my attention when I saw some changes made to <a href="/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_497" title="United Nations Security Council Resolution 497">United Nations Security Council Resolution 497</a> initially <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_497&oldid=205448808">the changes described the resolution non-binding</a> because it was not done under chapter 7 of the UN charter. I had reverted this change in that it was unsourced and this was in turn unreverted and an additional <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_497&oldid=205459858">section was added as to who believes it to be binding versus who believes it to be non-binding</a>. The way the <a href="/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_497" title="United Nations Security Council Resolution 497">article stands right now</a> is that it merely states that the resolution wasn't done under binding Chapter 7 of the UN charter. You'll notice on the <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_497" title="Talk:United Nations Security Council Resolution 497">talk page</a> that I <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AUnited_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_497&diff=205461888&oldid=205459970">expressed concerns</a> about suggesting that UNSC resolutions are non-binding when the <a href="/wiki/International_Court_of_Justice" title="International Court of Justice">International Court of Justice</a> says that they are binding however the response I received was that the ICJ opinion itself was non binding. Also if you look at <a href="/wiki/UN_Security_Council#Resolutions" class="mw-redirect" title="UN Security Council">UN_Security_Council#Resolutions</a> it says all the above that was added to the UNSC 497 article. Another concern is that the article might be cherry picking scholars or politicians who claim that UNSC resolutions not done under Chapter 7 are non-binding. I posted a concern about using the opinion of <a href="/w/index.php?title=Erika_De_Wet&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Erika De Wet (page does not exist)">Erika De Wet</a> when there is no article about her in Wikipedia so she might not even be notable however I was told <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_497&diff=205462466&oldid=205461888">here</a> that she is notable. I post the above as much for my own understanding as well as getting accuracy in these articles. <a href="/wiki/User:Pocopocopocopoco" title="User:Pocopocopocopoco">Pocopocopocopoco</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pocopocopocopoco" title="User talk:Pocopocopocopoco">talk</a>) 02:38, 25 April 2008 (UTC) Also, see an excellent <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AUnited_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_497&diff=205789807&oldid=205468149">comment</a> by an anon on the UNSC 497 talk page. <a href="/wiki/User:Pocopocopocopoco" title="User:Pocopocopocopoco">Pocopocopocopoco</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pocopocopocopoco" title="User talk:Pocopocopocopoco">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-25T02:38:00.000Z-UN_Security_Council_Resolutions:_Are_they_binding_or_not?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:05, 25 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-25T02:38:00.000Z-UN_Security_Council_Resolutions:_Are_they_binding_or_not?"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-25T02:38:00.000Z-UN_Security_Council_Resolutions:_Are_they_binding_or_not?"></span> </p><p><br/><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jayjg-2008-04-25T03:15:00.000Z-UN_Security_Council_Resolutions:_Are_they_binding_or_not?"></span> Here's what some reliable sources say on the matter: <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1256395271">.mw-parser-output .hidden-archive{box-sizing:border-box;border:1px solid #a2a9b1;width:100%;clear:both;text-align:center;padding:1px;margin:0.2em auto 0;font-size:100%}.mw-parser-output .hat-header{padding:0.25em 1em;line-height:1.5em;text-align:center;background-color:#f2dfce;color:inherit}.mw-parser-output .hat-content{border:solid 1px silver;padding:8px;background-color:#fff4f2;color:inherit;text-align:left}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .hat-header{background-color:#492b13}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .hat-content{background-color:#391c19}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .hat-header{background-color:#492b13}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .hat-content{background-color:#391c19}}</style> </p> <table class="hidden-archive mw-collapsible mw-archivedtalk mw-collapsed"> <tbody><tr> <th class="hat-header">Long list of sources </th></tr> <tr> <td style="font-style:italic;">The following discussion has been closed. <span style="color:var(--color-error, red);"><b>Please do not modify it.</b></span> </td></tr> <tr> <td class="hat-content"> <ul><li>"Some analysts have pointed out that Security Council resolutions condemning or criticizing Israel have been passed under Chapter VI of the U.N. Charter, which are different from the Chapter VII resolutions against Iraq." Ayoob, Mohammad. "The war against Iraq: normative and strategic implications", in Robinson, Mary & Weiss, Thomas G. & Crahan, Margaret E. & Goering, John (eds). <i>Wars on Terrorism and Iraq: human rights, unilateralism, and U.S. foreign policy</i>, Routledge (UK), May 1, 2004, p. 164.</li> <li>"Additionally it may be noted that the Security Council cannot adopt binding decisions under Chapter VI of the Charter." De Hoogh, Andre. <i>Obligations Erga Omnes and International Crimes</i>, Martinus Nijhoff Publishers, Jan 1, 1996, p. 371.</li> <li>"Council recommendations under Chapter VI are generally accepted as not being legally binding." Magliveras, Konstantinos D. <i>Exclusion from Participation in International Organisations</i>, Martinus Nijhoff Publishers, Jan 1, 1999, p. 113.</li> <li>"Within the framework of Chapter VI the SC has at its disposal an 'escalation ladder' composed of several 'rungs' of wielding influence on the conflicting parties in order to move them toward a pacific solution... however, the pressure exerted by the Council in the context of this Chapter is restricted to non-binding recommendations." Neuhold, Hanspeter. "The United Nations System for the Peaceful Settlement of International Disputes", in Cede, Franz & Sucharipa-Behrmann, Lilly. <i>The United Nations</i>, Martinus Nijhoff Publishers, Jan 1, 2001, p. 66.</li> <li>"The responsibility of the Council with regard to international peace and security is specified in Chapters VI and VII. Chapter VI, entitled 'Pacific Settlements of Disputes', provides for action by the Council in case of international disputes or situations which do not (yet) post a threat to international peace and security. Herein its powers generally confined to making recommendations, the Council can generally not issue binding decisions under Chapter VI." Schweigman, David. <i>The Authority of the Security Council Under Chapter VII of the UN Charter</i>, Martinus Nijhoff Publishers, Jan 1, 2001, p. 33.</li> <li>"Under Chapter VI, the Security Council may only make recommendations but not binding decisions on United Nations members". Wallace-Bruce, Nii Lante. <i>The Settlement of International Disputes</i>, Martinus Nijhoff Publishers, Jan 1, 1998, pp. 47-48.</li> <li>"First, it may issue non-binding resolutions under Chapter VI of the Charter expressing its opinion on the abuses and their resolution." Mertus, Julie. <i>The United Nations And Human Rights: A Guide For A New Era</i>, Routledge, 2005, <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/0415343380" title="Special:BookSources/0415343380">0415343380</a>, p. 120.</li> <li>"Under Chapter VI the Security Council can only make non-binding recommendations. However, if the Security Council determines that the continuance of the dispute constitutes a threat to the peace, or that the situation involves a breach of the peace or act of aggression it can take action under Chapter VII of the Charter. Chapter VII gives the Security Council the power to make decisions which are binding on member states, once it has determined the existence of a threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression." Hillier, Timothy, Taylor & Francis Group. <i>Sourcebook on Public International Law</i>, Cavendish Publishing, <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/1843143801" title="Special:BookSources/1843143801">1843143801</a>, 1998, p. 568.</li> <li>"Nor is the disenchanting performance due to the fact that under Chapter VI the SC may only address non-binding resolutions to the conflicting parties." Cede, Franz, and Sucharipa-Behrmann, Lilly. <i>The United Nations: Law and Practice</i>, Martinus Nijhoff Publishers, 2001, <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/9041115633" title="Special:BookSources/9041115633">9041115633</a>, p. 70.</li> <li>"This clause does <i>not</i> apply to decisions under Chapter VII (including the use of armed force), which are binding on all member states (unlike those adopted under Chapter VI which are of a non-binding nature)." Köchler, Hans. <i>The Concept of Humanitarian Intervention in the Context of Modern Power</i>, International Progress Organization, 2001, <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/3900704201" title="Special:BookSources/3900704201">3900704201</a>, p. 21.</li> <li>"The impact of these flaws inherent to Resolution 731 (1992) was softened by the fact that it was a non-binding resolution in terms of Chapter VI of the Charter. Consquently Libya was not bound to give effect to it. However, the situation was different with respect to Resolution 748 of 31 March 1992, as it was adopted under Chapter VII of the Charter." De Wet, Erika, "The Security Council as a Law Maker: The Adopion of (Quasi)-Judicial Decisions", in Wolfrum, Rüdiger and Röben, Volker. <i>Developments of International Law in Treaty Making</i>, Springer, 2005, <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/3540252991" title="Special:BookSources/3540252991">3540252991</a>, p. 203.</li> <li>"There are two limitations on the Security Council when it is acting under Chapter VI. Firstly, recommendations of the Council under Chapter VI are not binding on states." Werksman, Jacob. <i>Greening International Institutions</i>, Earthscan, 1996, <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/1853832448" title="Special:BookSources/1853832448">1853832448</a>, p. 14.</li> <li>"Chapter VI exhorts members to settle such claims peacefully and submit them for mediation and arbitration to the United Nations. Chapter VI, however, is not binding - in other owrds, there is no power to compel states to submit their disputes for arbitration or mediation by the United Nations." Matthews, Ken. <i>The Gulf Conflict and International Relations</i>, Routledge, 1993, <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/041507519X" title="Special:BookSources/041507519X">041507519X</a>, p. 130.</li> <li>"One final point must be noted in connection with Chapter VI, and that is that the powers of the Security Council are to make "recommendations." These are not binding on the states to whom they are addressed, for Article 25 relates only to "decisions." Philippe Sands, Pierre Klein, D. W. Bowett. <i>Bowett's Law of International Institutions</i>, Sweet & Maxwell, 2001, <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/042153690X" title="Special:BookSources/042153690X">042153690X</a>, p. 46.</li> <li>"Article 2, para. 6, must be linked, first of all, to the use of these kinds of pressure that have no mandatory effect. Both the General Assembly and the Council have the power to make recommendations to the States, that is, resolutions that do not bind the States (see section 89)). Worthy of mention from this point of view are the provisions of Article 11, para. 2 ("The General Assembly may discuss any questions relating to the maintenance of international peace and security... and... may make recommendations with regard to any such question to the State or States concerned") and the various provisions of Chapter VI, particularly Article 33, para. 2, Article 36, and Article 37, para. 2, which give the Security Council the power to recommend settlement of disputes likely to endanger the peace." Conforti, Benedetto. <i>The Law and Practice of the United Nations</i>, Martinus Nijhoff Publishers, 2005, <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/9004143084" title="Special:BookSources/9004143084">9004143084</a>, p. 127.</li> <li>"...the primary authority of the Security Council is defined in terms of international peace and security. The Council's jurisdiction under Chapter VI—which give it recommendatory but not binding authority—is stated in very broad terms." Matheson, Michael J. <i>Council UNbound: The Growth of UN Decision Making on Conflict and Postconflict Issues after the Cold War</i>, US Institute of Peace Press, 2006, <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/1929223781" title="Special:BookSources/1929223781">1929223781</a>, p. 42.</li> <li>"After much lobbying, the Council agreed on a resolution intended to "assist the parties to achieve a just, lasting and mutually acceptable political solution" that would provide for the self-determination of the people of Western Sahara. But the preamble went on to specify that the Council was "acting under Chapter VI of the Charter of the United Nations." In short, this remained an exercise of good offices, not binding arbitration subject to enforcement." Jensen, Erik. <i>Western Sahara: Anatomy of a Stalemate</i>, Lynne Rienner Publishers, 2005, <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/1588263053" title="Special:BookSources/1588263053">1588263053</a>, p. 112.</li> <li>"Thus decisions under Chapter VI, for example, to recommend terms of settlement are not binding, and even decisions under Article 40 of Chapter VII may not be." <i>Political science quarterly</i>, v. 90 (1975-76), Academy of Political Science, <a href="/wiki/Columbia_University" title="Columbia University">Columbia University</a>, p. 147.</li> <li>"The UN distinguishes between two sorts of Security Council resolution. Those passed under Chapter Six deal with the peaceful resolution of disputes and entitle the council to make non-binding recommendations. Those under Chapter Seven give the council broad powers to take action, including warlike action, to deal with “threats to the peace, breaches of the peace, or acts of aggression”. Such resolutions, binding on all UN members, were rare during the cold war. But they were used against Iraq after its invasion of Kuwait. None of the resolutions relating to the Israeli-Arab conflict comes under Chapter Seven." <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.economist.com/world/na/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1378577">Iraq, Israel and the United Nations: Double standards?</a>, <i><a href="/wiki/The_Economist" title="The Economist">The Economist</a></i>, October 10, 2002.</li> <li>"There are two sorts of security council resolution: those under 'chapter 6' are non-binding recommendations dealing with the peaceful resolution of disputes; those under 'chapter 7' give the council broad powers, including war, to deal with 'threats to the peace ... or acts of aggression'." Emmott, Bill. <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,846814,00.html">If Saddam steps out of line we must go straight to war</a>, <i><a href="/wiki/The_Guardian" title="The Guardian">The Guardian</a></i>, November 25, 2002.</li> <li>"...there is a difference between the Security Council resolutions that Israel breaches (nonbinding recommendations under Chapter 6) and those Iraq broke (enforcement actions under Chapter 7)." Kristof, Nicholas D. <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/25/opinion/25KRIS.html?ex=1145851200&en=c092323da838cd9b&ei=5070">Calling the Kettle Black</a>, <i><a href="/wiki/The_New_York_Times" title="The New York Times">The New York Times</a></i>, February 25, 2004.</li> <li>"There is a hierarchy of resolutions... Chapter 6, under which all resolutions relating to the middle east have been issued, relates to the pacific resolution of disputes. Above that, there are the mandatory chapter 7 resolutions, which impose the clearest possible obligations, usually on a single state rather than on two or three states, which is what chapter 6 is there for. Chapter 7 imposes mandatory obligations on states that are completely out of line with international law and policy, and the United Nations has decided in its charter that the failure to meet those obligations may be met by the use of force." <a href="/wiki/Jack_Straw_(politician)" class="mw-redirect" title="Jack Straw (politician)">Straw, Jack</a>. <a href="/wiki/British_House_of_Commons" class="mw-redirect" title="British House of Commons">House of Commons</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200102/cmhansrd/vo020924/debtext/20924-09.htm#20924-09_spnew8">debates</a>, <a href="/wiki/Hansard" title="Hansard">Hansard</a>, Column 32, September 24, 2002.</li> <li>"There is another characteristic of these resolutions which deserves a mention, and that is that they are under chapter 7 of the United Nations charter. Chapter 7 has as its heading 'Action with respect to threats to the peace, breaches of the peace, and acts of aggression'. This is the very serious chapter of United Nations rules, regulations, laws and principles, which the United Nations activates when they intend to do something about it. If the United Nations announces under chapter 7 that it intends to do something about a matter and it is not done, that will undermine the authority of the United Nations; that will render it ineffective. There are many other resolutions under other chapters. Resolution 242 gets a bit of a guernsey here every now and then. Resolution 242 is under chapter 6, not chapter 7. It does not carry the same mandate and authority that chapter 7 carries. Chapter 6 is the United Nations trying to put up resolutions which might help the process of peace and it states matters of principle that are important for the world to take into consideration. Resolution 242 says that Israel should withdraw from territories that it has occupied. It also says that Israel should withdraw to secure and recognised boundaries and that the one is dependent upon the other. Resolution 242 says that, but it is not a chapter 7 resolution." <a href="/wiki/Kim_Beazley" title="Kim Beazley">Beazley, Kim</a>, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/02/05/1044318661193.html">Waiting for blow-back (speech delivered in Parliament on February 4, 2003</a>, <i><a href="/wiki/The_Sydney_Morning_Herald" title="The Sydney Morning Herald">The Sydney Morning Herald</a></i>, February 5, 2003.</li> <li>"There are several types of resolutions: Chapter 6 resolutions are decisions pursing the Pacific Settlement of Disputes, and put forward Council proposals on negotiation, enquiry, mediation, conciliation, arbitration, judicial settlement, resort to regional agencies, and other peaceful means. Chapter 7 resolutions are decisions for Action with Respect to Threats to the Peace, involving use of force and sanctions, complete or partial interruption of economic relations, rail, sea, air, postal, telegraphic radio and other means of communication and the severance of diplomatic relations. Resolutions passed under Chapter 7 of the Charter are binding on all UN members, who are required to give every assistance to any action taken by the Council, and refrain from giving any assistance to the country against which it is taking enforcement action." <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.comeclean.org.uk/content/Greenpeace_010306.doc">Iran dossier crosses the Atlantic: Where to from here?</a> (<a href="/wiki/Microsoft_Word" title="Microsoft Word">Microsoft Word</a> document), <a href="/wiki/Greenpeace" title="Greenpeace">Greenpeace</a> position paper on Iran.</li> <li>"The International Court of Justice took the position in the Namibia Advisory Opinion that Art. 25 of the Charter, according to which decisions of the Security Council have to be carried out, does not only apply in relation to chapter VII. Rather, the court is of the opinion that the language of a resolution should be carefully analyzed before a conclusion can be drawn as to its binding effect. The Court even seems to assume that Art. 25 may have given special powers to the Security Council. The Court speaks of "the powers under Art. 25". It is very doubtful, however, whether this position can be upheld. As Sir Gerald Fitzmaurice has pointed out in his dissenting opinion: "If, under the relevant chapter or article of the Charter, the decision is <i>not</i> binding, Article [69/70] 25 cannot make it so. If the effect of that Article were automatically to make <i>al</i> decisions of the Security Council binding, then the words 'in accordance with the present Charter' would be quite superfluous". In practice the Security Council does not act on the understanding that its decisions outside chapter VII are binding on the States concerned. Indeed, as the wording of chapter VI clearly shows, non-binding recommendations are the general rule here." Frowein, Jochen Abr. <i>Völkerrecht - Menschenrechte - Verfassungsfragen Deutschlands und Europas</i>, Springer, 2004, <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/3540230238" title="Special:BookSources/3540230238">3540230238</a>, p. 58.</li> <li>"Allowing the Security Council to adopt binding measures under Chapter VI would undermine the structural division of competencies foreseen by Chapters VI and VII, respectively. The whole aim of separating these chapters is to distinguish between voluntary and binding measures. Whereas the pacific settlement of disputes provided by the former is underpinned by the consent of the parties, binding measures in terms of Chapter VII are characterised by the absence of such consent. A further indication of the non-binding nature of measures taken in terms of Chapter VI is the obligation on members of the Security Council who are parties to a dispute, to refrain from voting when resolutions under Chapter VI are adopted. No similar obligation exists with respect to binding resolutions adopted under Chapter VII... If one applies this reasoning to the <i>Nambia</i> opinion, the decisive point is that none of the Articles under Chapter VI facilitate the adoption of the type of binding measures that were adopted by the Security Council in Resolution 276(1970)... Resolution 260(1970) was indeed adopted in terms of Chapter VII, even though the ICJ went to some length to give the opposite impression." De Wet, Erika. <i>The Chapter VII Powers of the United Nations Security Council</i>, Hart Publishing, 2004, <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/1841134228" title="Special:BookSources/1841134228">1841134228</a>, pp. 39-40.</li></ul> </td></tr></tbody></table> <p>Hope that's helpful. <a href="/wiki/User:Jayjg" title="User:Jayjg">Jayjg </a><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jayjg" title="User talk:Jayjg"><small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk)</small></a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Jayjg-2008-04-25T03:15:00.000Z-UN_Security_Council_Resolutions:_Are_they_binding_or_not?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:15, 25 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jayjg-2008-04-25T03:15:00.000Z-UN_Security_Council_Resolutions:_Are_they_binding_or_not?"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jayjg-2008-04-25T03:15:00.000Z-UN_Security_Council_Resolutions:_Are_they_binding_or_not?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T04:01:00.000Z-Jayjg-2008-04-25T03:15:00.000Z"></span>I'm confused. What exactly is the fringe theory here? That UN resolutions not under Chapter 7 are (or can be) binding? <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T04:01:00.000Z-Jayjg-2008-04-25T03:15:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:01, 25 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T04:01:00.000Z-Jayjg-2008-04-25T03:15:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T04:01:00.000Z-Jayjg-2008-04-25T03:15:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-25T04:08:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T04:01:00.000Z"></span>If UNSC resolutions not under chapter 7 should be called non-binding resolutions in wikipedia articles even when the resolution itself makes no mention as to whether its binding or not. <a href="/wiki/User:Pocopocopocopoco" title="User:Pocopocopocopoco">Pocopocopocopoco</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pocopocopocopoco" title="User talk:Pocopocopocopoco">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-25T04:08:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T04:01:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:08, 25 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-25T04:08:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T04:01:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-25T04:08:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T04:01:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T04:54:00.000Z-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-25T04:08:00.000Z"></span>This makes no sense. How many UN resolutions schoolmasterishly declare "this is (not) binding" about themselves? The fact of the matter is that in the practically certain absence of any such explicit statement this is simply a matter of definition. Chapter 7? Binding. Other? Not binding. Period. I'm getting the impression that the <i>real</i> argument here is something on the lines of "pointing out that a Chapter [not 7] resolution is not binding is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SYNTH" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SYNTH">WP:SYNTH</a>", and that too in support of a POV that would be only too happy to have uninformed readers fall into the trap of assuming, on the basis of the prestige of the UN, that a resolution is binding when it isn't. <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T04:54:00.000Z-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-25T04:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:54, 25 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T04:54:00.000Z-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-25T04:08:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T04:54:00.000Z-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-25T04:08:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-25T05:14:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T04:54:00.000Z"></span>(RE: SYNTH) Yes, that is what I meant. Also, if you take a tour of the UN, the tourguide will tell you that GA resolutions are non-binding and SC resolutions are binding. Furthermore, usually when you read about the passing of a UN resolution in the press, if it was a GA resolution the press will tell you that it was non-binding but if it's an SC (say not chapter 7) resolution they generally won't make a statement as to whether it was binding or not. <a href="/wiki/User:Pocopocopocopoco" title="User:Pocopocopocopoco">Pocopocopocopoco</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pocopocopocopoco" title="User talk:Pocopocopocopoco">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-25T05:14:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T04:54:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:14, 25 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-25T05:14:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T04:54:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-25T05:14:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T04:54:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T05:28:00.000Z-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-25T05:14:00.000Z"></span>Well, last I heard, tour guides don't trump the UN Charter. As far as I can see, "Only Chapter 7 resolutions are binding" is not <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SYNTH" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SYNTH">WP:SYNTH</a>, it's a statement of fact. The same goes for "Chapter N resolutions are not binding", for all admissible values of N except 7. <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T05:28:00.000Z-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-25T05:14:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:28, 25 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T05:28:00.000Z-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-25T05:14:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T05:28:00.000Z-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-25T05:14:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-26T01:40:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T05:28:00.000Z"></span>I read remember reading through the entire charter on wikisource and I didn't see anything about non-Chapter 7 resolutions being non-binding. Are we using the wikipedia definition of <a href="/wiki/Non-binding_resolution" title="Non-binding resolution">Non-binding resolution</a>? Also, am I to take it that whenever we see a non-chapter 7 resolution in an article in wikipedia we should mention that the resolution was not done under chapter 7 so it's non-binding? <a href="/wiki/User:Pocopocopocopoco" title="User:Pocopocopocopoco">Pocopocopocopoco</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pocopocopocopoco" title="User talk:Pocopocopocopoco">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-26T01:40:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T05:28:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:40, 26 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-26T01:40:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T05:28:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-26T01:40:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-25T05:28:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T01:57:00.000Z-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-26T01:40:00.000Z"></span>I think you're missing the point here, as nowhere in the Charter is it said that Chapter 7 resolutions <i>are</i> binding. The issue is one of international law, and it has been decided by the experts: only Chapter 7 resolutions have binding force. So on the must/should/may scale, the correct advice would seem to be "may" rather than "should". <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T01:57:00.000Z-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-26T01:40:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:57, 26 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T01:57:00.000Z-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-26T01:40:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T01:57:00.000Z-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-26T01:40:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-26T02:18:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T01:57:00.000Z"></span>Pardon me if I'm not picking this up quickly enough but I can't understand why it's clearly decided by experts to be non binding when the <a href="/wiki/International_Court_of_Justice" title="International Court of Justice">International Court of Justice</a> says that UNSC resolutions are binding. The ICJ should trump the experts above, no? Or at least indicate that there's no consensus on the issue? <a href="/wiki/User:Pocopocopocopoco" title="User:Pocopocopocopoco">Pocopocopocopoco</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pocopocopocopoco" title="User talk:Pocopocopocopoco">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-26T02:18:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T01:57:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:18, 26 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-26T02:18:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T01:57:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-26T02:18:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T01:57:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T02:30:00.000Z-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-26T02:18:00.000Z"></span>What the ICJ says doesn't change the way the UN works. I'd suggest going by what the experts say about the Namibia Advisory (because the ICJ doesn't have powers of judicial review, and as a matter of fact has said so. The ICJ was asked for and gave an opinion on specific resolutions). <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T02:30:00.000Z-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-26T02:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:30, 26 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T02:30:00.000Z-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-26T02:18:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T02:30:00.000Z-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-26T02:18:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-G-Dett-2008-04-27T22:40:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T02:30:00.000Z"></span>Rudra, can you explain your position a little more fully – if Pocopocopocopoco is correct that most press sources don't describe the resolutions in question as non-binding, and if other sources (the ICJ, the UN itself) consider them to be binding while still other sources (those Jayjg cites) consider them to be nonbinding, then why would Wikipedia step in and resolve the question? Wouldn't NPOV require that it <i>not</i> do this?--<a href="/wiki/User:G-Dett" title="User:G-Dett">G-Dett</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:G-Dett" title="User talk:G-Dett">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-G-Dett-2008-04-27T22:40:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T02:30:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:40, 27 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-G-Dett-2008-04-27T22:40:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T02:30:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-G-Dett-2008-04-27T22:40:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-26T02:30:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-28T14:06:00.000Z-G-Dett-2008-04-27T22:40:00.000Z"></span>Are tour guides or the press experts on international law? As for the ICJ, it advanced a theory that Art.25 could be applied: it was a theory to support their non-binding opinion on a specific resolution, not a definitive statement of how the UN actually works. See the <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_497&oldid=205459858#cite_note-Frowein-2">version</a> linked by Pocopocopocopoco above, esp footnote 3, the quote of Frowein ending with: <i>In practice the Security Council does not act on the understanding that its decisions outside chapter VII are binding on the States concerned. Indeed, as the wording of chapter VI clearly shows, non-binding recommendations are the general rule here.</i> I'm not sure NPOV requires a "balancing" of popular myths (e.g. "<a href="/wiki/Astrology" title="Astrology">astrology</a> works!") with the weight of expert opinion. <a href="/wiki/User:Rudrasharman" title="User:Rudrasharman">rudra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-28T14:06:00.000Z-G-Dett-2008-04-27T22:40:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:06, 28 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-28T14:06:00.000Z-G-Dett-2008-04-27T22:40:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rudrasharman-2008-04-28T14:06:00.000Z-G-Dett-2008-04-27T22:40:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-G-Dett-2008-04-28T17:53:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-28T14:06:00.000Z"></span>Hold on, Rudra. Frowein's was the <i>dissenting</i> opinion. Whatever may be said of this analogy of yours – whereby the majority finding of the International Court of Justice is likened to a "popular opinion" (such as the proposition that "astrology works"), whereas the dissenting position is presented as "expert opinion" – it does <i>not</i> constitute a plausible approach to NPOV. Now, Jayjg is correct that Erika De Wet is an excellent source on this question, and he is correct that she comes down on the side that only Chapter VII resolutions are binding. But here's what Jay leaves out and you overlook: De Wet <i>presents this as a vexed question about which there is significant dispute from excellent sources.</i> She cites the work of several such expert sources, including Rosalyn Higgins, Wilhelm Kewenig, and Olivier Lissitzyn, discusses the complexities at length, and carefully lays out the groundwork for her own position. She is a very good scholar, but to argue that Wikipedia should simply adopt her position as settled fact is preposterous; she doesn't even present it that way.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>I hope that part of the NPOV problem is clearer now. But there's another major NPOV problem, that of <a href="/wiki/Poisoning_the_well" title="Poisoning the well">poisoning the well</a>. Here's the passage of the Wikipedia article that's aroused dispute:</dd> <dd><blockquote><p>This Security Council Resolution was not taken under Chapter VII of the UN Charter. Resolutions made under Chapter VI have no enforcement mechanisms and are generally considered to have no binding force under international law.[1] <b>The International Court of Justice (ICJ), however, has asserted that all UN Security Council resolutions are legally binding,[2] in its 1971 Namibia non-binding advisory opinion.</b> This assertion by the ICJ has been countered by Erika De Wet and others....In practice, the Security Council does not consider its decisions outside Chapter VII to be binding.[3]</p></blockquote></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Footnote 1 consists of a whole mess of cherry-picked sources, only some of which address Namibia. The NPOV and NOR violations are obvious. The bolded sentence which follows is rank POV-pushing, too cute by half and too sarky by 3/4 for encyclopedic prose. The subsequent sentence reads, "This assertion by the ICJ has been countered by Erika De Wet and others" – yes, and it's been supported by still other scholars, whom De Wet is good enough to acknowledge as serious even as you guys dismiss them as astrologists. The claim in the final sentence, presented here as fact, is cited to the <i>dissenting</i> opinion. That's right, the majority opinion of the ICJ is presented as an "assertion," with extra well-poisoning by way of "non-binding," while the dissenting opinion is presented as settled fact. Way to write a serious and neutral encyclopedia, guys.--<a href="/wiki/User:G-Dett" title="User:G-Dett">G-Dett</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:G-Dett" title="User talk:G-Dett">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-G-Dett-2008-04-28T17:53:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-28T14:06:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:53, 28 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-G-Dett-2008-04-28T17:53:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-28T14:06:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-G-Dett-2008-04-28T17:53:00.000Z-Rudrasharman-2008-04-28T14:06:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jayjg-2008-04-29T00:25:00.000Z-G-Dett-2008-04-28T17:53:00.000Z"></span>G-Dett, what a surprise to find you have <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:STALK" title="Wikipedia:STALK">followed me here</a>. Your statement is interesting, but incorrect in a number of important ways. To begin with, 26 sources isn't "cherry-picking", it's the majority view. In addition, it's not Frowein who was the dissenting opinion, it was Fitzmaurice. More importantly, whether or not there is a debate about amongst legal scholars about whether Chapter VI resolutions <i>should be</i> binding, <i>as a matter of customary international</i> law Chapter VI resolutions are <i>treated</i> as non-binding. That is why so many legal scholars state this as a matter of fact, not an article of debate. Yes, the ICJ did, in 1971, attempt to extend the binding nature of Chapter VII resolutions to Chapter VI resolutions - but that attempt failed, and, as De Wet points out, even <i>Namibia</i> was, in practice, adopted in terms of Chapter VII. NPOV is quite fully satisfied as regards customary international law; if the legal scholars who would like to make Chapter VI resolutions binding ever do get their way, then your arguments would carry more weight. If and until that happens, Chapter VI resolutions are still not binding. <a href="/wiki/User:Jayjg" title="User:Jayjg">Jayjg </a><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jayjg" title="User talk:Jayjg"><small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk)</small></a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Jayjg-2008-04-29T00:25:00.000Z-G-Dett-2008-04-28T17:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:25, 29 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jayjg-2008-04-29T00:25:00.000Z-G-Dett-2008-04-28T17:53:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jayjg-2008-04-29T00:25:00.000Z-G-Dett-2008-04-28T17:53:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-G-Dett-2008-04-29T16:14:00.000Z-Jayjg-2008-04-29T00:25:00.000Z"></span>Jay, you're blowing smoke and begging the question; the point (De Wet's point and mine) is not that legal scholars "would like to make Chapter VI resolutions binding," it's that they claim they <i>are</i> binding. That issue is disputed; De Wet acknowledges the dispute, and the ambiguities giving rise to it, even if you don't. Now, explain <i>exactly</i> (a) how you've arrived at your understanding that the position you support is the "majority view"; and (b) why we should present the "majority view" as if it were settled fact when it's actually disputed by many scholars. Then, explain (c) your opposition to an application of this "majority view" standard to the settlements' illegality under international law.--<a href="/wiki/User:G-Dett" title="User:G-Dett">G-Dett</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:G-Dett" title="User talk:G-Dett">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-G-Dett-2008-04-29T16:14:00.000Z-Jayjg-2008-04-29T00:25:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:14, 29 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-G-Dett-2008-04-29T16:14:00.000Z-Jayjg-2008-04-29T00:25:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-G-Dett-2008-04-29T16:14:00.000Z-Jayjg-2008-04-29T00:25:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-30T04:29:00.000Z-UN_Security_Council_Resolutions:_Are_they_binding_or_not?"></span>(unindent)I wonder if all of this stems from different definitions of what constitutes a <a href="/wiki/Non-binding_resolution" title="Non-binding resolution">Non-binding resolution</a>. If you look at the wikiarticle for non-binding resolution it defines it as a resolution that cannot pass into law. However, if you look at some discussion that I had with Rudra on his <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rudrasharman#UNSC_resolutions" title="User talk:Rudrasharman">talk page</a>, His understanding is that '"Binding" generally means "UN members are obliged to enforce"'. I wonder if non-chapter 7 resolutions might actually fall under international law but the members are not obliged to enforce them. So in the example above, <a href="/wiki/Israel" title="Israel">Israeli</a> annexation of the <a href="/wiki/Golan_Heights" title="Golan Heights">Golan Heights</a> is illegal under international law due to UNSC 497 however since UNSC 497 was not under chapter 7, the members of the UNSC are not obliged to enforce UNSC 497. <a href="/wiki/User:Pocopocopocopoco" title="User:Pocopocopocopoco">Pocopocopocopoco</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pocopocopocopoco" title="User talk:Pocopocopocopoco">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-30T04:29:00.000Z-UN_Security_Council_Resolutions:_Are_they_binding_or_not?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:29, 30 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-30T04:29:00.000Z-UN_Security_Council_Resolutions:_Are_they_binding_or_not?"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-30T04:29:00.000Z-UN_Security_Council_Resolutions:_Are_they_binding_or_not?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><i><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Relata_refero-2008-05-03T20:31:00.000Z-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-30T04:29:00.000Z"></span>26 sources isn't "cherry-picking", it's the majority view. </i> Depends. If the cherry-picking happened <i>within</i> the sources, that cannot be said for certain. Also, in the absence of a denominator.... we have had this conversation before, I believe. In a widely studied field, for a contentious point, you need to bring a source that states that someone with expertise - not a random WP editor - believes that something is the overwhelming majority view, such as is needed to state the contentious point in WP's voice. --<span style="font-family:Georgia"><a href="/wiki/User:Relata_refero" title="User:Relata refero">Relata refero</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Relata_refero" title="User talk:Relata refero">disp.</a>)</span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Relata_refero-2008-05-03T20:31:00.000Z-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-30T04:29:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:31, 3 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Relata_refero-2008-05-03T20:31:00.000Z-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-30T04:29:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Relata_refero-2008-05-03T20:31:00.000Z-Pocopocopocopoco-2008-04-30T04:29:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Mondo_MOND_madness" data-mw-thread-id="h-Mondo_MOND_madness-2008-04-25T09:08:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Mondo_MOND_madness-2008-04-25T09:08:00.000Z"></span>Mondo MOND madness<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Mondo_MOND_madness-2008-04-25T09:08:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span id="Modified_Newtonian_dynamics"></span><span class="plainlinks nourlexpansion lx"><a href="/wiki/Modified_Newtonian_dynamics" title="Modified Newtonian dynamics"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vassyana-2008-04-25T09:08:00.000Z-Mondo_MOND_madness"></span>Modified Newtonian dynamics</a> (<a href="/wiki/Special:EditPage/Modified_Newtonian_dynamics" title="Special:EditPage/Modified Newtonian dynamics">edit</a> | <a href="/wiki/Talk:Modified_Newtonian_dynamics" title="Talk:Modified Newtonian dynamics">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:PageHistory/Modified_Newtonian_dynamics" title="Special:PageHistory/Modified Newtonian dynamics">history</a><span class="sysop-show"> | <a href="/wiki/Special:ProtectPage/Modified_Newtonian_dynamics" title="Special:ProtectPage/Modified Newtonian dynamics">protect</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:DeletePage/Modified_Newtonian_dynamics" title="Special:DeletePage/Modified Newtonian dynamics">delete</a></span> | <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Modified_Newtonian_dynamics&limit=999">links</a> | <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Modified_Newtonian_dynamics&action=watch">watch</a> | <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Modified+Newtonian+dynamics">logs</a> | <a class="external text" href="https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews?pages=Modified_Newtonian_dynamics&project=en.wikipedia.org">views</a>)</span>. The current version could be a poster child for the presentation of fringe topics as mainstream alternatives. The eyes and opinions of some physics-savvy people would be appreciated. <a href="/wiki/User:Vassyana" title="User:Vassyana">Vassyana</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Vassyana" title="User talk:Vassyana">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Vassyana-2008-04-25T09:08:00.000Z-Mondo_MOND_madness" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:08, 25 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vassyana-2008-04-25T09:08:00.000Z-Mondo_MOND_madness"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vassyana-2008-04-25T09:08:00.000Z-Mondo_MOND_madness"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Eleland-2008-04-28T00:46:00.000Z-Vassyana-2008-04-25T09:08:00.000Z"></span>My understanding is that MOND <i>is</i> a mainstream alternative, in the sense of being a serious, falsifiable theory, albeit one with few adherents and serious flaws. Am I wrong? <<a href="/wiki/User:Eleland" title="User:Eleland"><b>el</b>eland</a>/<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Eleland" title="User talk:Eleland"><b>talk</b></a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Eleland" title="Special:Contributions/Eleland">edits</a>> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Eleland-2008-04-28T00:46:00.000Z-Vassyana-2008-04-25T09:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:46, 28 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Eleland-2008-04-28T00:46:00.000Z-Vassyana-2008-04-25T09:08:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Eleland-2008-04-28T00:46:00.000Z-Vassyana-2008-04-25T09:08:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-ScienceApologist-2008-04-28T06:35:00.000Z-Eleland-2008-04-28T00:46:00.000Z"></span>The argument right now is how falsified MOND is with most astrophysicists "in the know" declaring it to be falsified by a number of different observations. The current state of the idea is marginalized but tolerated. More interesting are modified gravity theories to explain dark energy (like <a href="/wiki/DGP_model" title="DGP model">DGP models</a>). <a href="/wiki/User:ScienceApologist" title="User:ScienceApologist">ScienceApologist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ScienceApologist" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:ScienceApologist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-ScienceApologist-2008-04-28T06:35:00.000Z-Eleland-2008-04-28T00:46:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:35, 28 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-ScienceApologist-2008-04-28T06:35:00.000Z-Eleland-2008-04-28T00:46:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-ScienceApologist-2008-04-28T06:35:00.000Z-Eleland-2008-04-28T00:46:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vassyana-2008-04-28T06:39:00.000Z-ScienceApologist-2008-04-28T06:35:00.000Z"></span>It is my understanding that MOND is fringe in the sense that it lies on the fringes of acceptable science and that it is only held by a very small minority of professionals. Am I incorrect in my knowledge? <a href="/wiki/User:Vassyana" title="User:Vassyana">Vassyana</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Vassyana" title="User talk:Vassyana">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Vassyana-2008-04-28T06:39:00.000Z-ScienceApologist-2008-04-28T06:35:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:39, 28 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vassyana-2008-04-28T06:39:00.000Z-ScienceApologist-2008-04-28T06:35:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vassyana-2008-04-28T06:39:00.000Z-ScienceApologist-2008-04-28T06:35:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-ScienceApologist-2008-04-28T06:49:00.000Z-Vassyana-2008-04-28T06:39:00.000Z"></span>The biggest problem with MOND is that the authors of the idea seem impervious to others' falsifications of the idea. This is a rather old story, as it were. Remember <a href="/wiki/Polywater" title="Polywater">polywater</a> and <a href="/wiki/N-rays" class="mw-redirect" title="N-rays">N-rays</a> not to mention <a href="/wiki/Steady_state_universe" class="mw-redirect" title="Steady state universe">steady state universe</a> and <a href="/wiki/Caloric_theory" title="Caloric theory">caloric theory</a>? Whenever a theory gets falsified, there are often supporters waiting in the wings who will bend over backwards and attach bells-and-whistles to try to explain away fundamental contradictions to the point where the final modified theory is either so esoteric as to be almost absurd or is essentially identical to standard theory. At this point, the "tensor" modifications to MOND are so grandiose that any "simplicity" the theory originally could claim is lost in its awkward new packaging. And things like the <a href="/wiki/Bullet_cluster" class="mw-redirect" title="Bullet cluster">bullet cluster</a> and <a href="/wiki/Large-scale_structure_of_the_universe" class="mw-redirect" title="Large-scale structure of the universe">large-scale structure of the universe</a> studies don't seem to cooperate with the simplest MOND models one comes up with. Nevertheless, two different "MOND" groups continue to churn out archive papers on a weekly basis attempting to stop all the holes in the dike. <a href="/wiki/User:ScienceApologist" title="User:ScienceApologist">ScienceApologist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ScienceApologist" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:ScienceApologist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-ScienceApologist-2008-04-28T06:49:00.000Z-Vassyana-2008-04-28T06:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:49, 28 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-ScienceApologist-2008-04-28T06:49:00.000Z-Vassyana-2008-04-28T06:39:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-ScienceApologist-2008-04-28T06:49:00.000Z-Vassyana-2008-04-28T06:39:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-28T06:59:00.000Z-ScienceApologist-2008-04-28T06:49:00.000Z"></span>I don't know, MOND gets a decent amount of Physics press, I think it's best considered minority science for now, with a bit of questionable, but not much more (to an outsider) than all the other alternatives (e.g. String theory, supersymmetry, etc). <a href="/wiki/User:Shoemaker%27s_Holiday" title="User:Shoemaker's Holiday">Shoemaker's Holiday</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Shoemaker%27s_Holiday" title="User talk:Shoemaker's Holiday">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-28T06:59:00.000Z-ScienceApologist-2008-04-28T06:49:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:59, 28 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-28T06:59:00.000Z-ScienceApologist-2008-04-28T06:49:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-28T06:59:00.000Z-ScienceApologist-2008-04-28T06:49:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-ScienceApologist-2008-04-28T07:15:00.000Z-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-28T06:59:00.000Z"></span>MOND has problems beyond string theory and supersymmetry of having observational evidence that many have stated explicitly falsifies it. Outside of <a href="/wiki/New_Scientist" title="New Scientist">New Scientist</a>, I don't think there's much notice of it. <a href="/wiki/User:ScienceApologist" title="User:ScienceApologist">ScienceApologist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ScienceApologist" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:ScienceApologist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-ScienceApologist-2008-04-28T07:15:00.000Z-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-28T06:59:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:15, 28 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-ScienceApologist-2008-04-28T07:15:00.000Z-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-28T06:59:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-ScienceApologist-2008-04-28T07:15:00.000Z-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-04-28T06:59:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-28T14:15:00.000Z-ScienceApologist-2008-04-28T07:15:00.000Z"></span>And PPARC. The article probably gives it a lot of undue weight but it is marginal science, not pseudoscience. <a href="/wiki/User:Itsmejudith" title="User:Itsmejudith">Itsmejudith</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Itsmejudith" title="User talk:Itsmejudith">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-28T14:15:00.000Z-ScienceApologist-2008-04-28T07:15:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:15, 28 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-28T14:15:00.000Z-ScienceApologist-2008-04-28T07:15:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-28T14:15:00.000Z-ScienceApologist-2008-04-28T07:15:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SheffieldSteel-2008-04-28T17:39:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-28T14:15:00.000Z"></span>I'd agree with that. It is fringe science in the sense of being on the boundaries of science, not in the sense of being <i>pseudoscience</i>. <a href="/wiki/User:SheffieldSteel" title="User:SheffieldSteel"><span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span></a><sup><small><b><a href="/wiki/User_talk:SheffieldSteel" title="User talk:SheffieldSteel">TALK</a></b></small></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-SheffieldSteel-2008-04-28T17:39:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-28T14:15:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:39, 28 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SheffieldSteel-2008-04-28T17:39:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-28T14:15:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SheffieldSteel-2008-04-28T17:39:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-28T14:15:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PaddyLeahy-2008-05-04T22:32:00.000Z-SheffieldSteel-2008-04-28T17:39:00.000Z"></span>Seems reasonable for an article on MOND to describe MOND. One way of telling if a theory is "respectable": is it worth publishing evidence against it? In the case of MOND the answer is definitely yes, as demonstrated by searches on arXiv (especially if you throw in the related TeVeS). And evidence against is cited in the article. <a href="/wiki/User:PaddyLeahy" class="mw-redirect" title="User:PaddyLeahy">PaddyLeahy</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PaddyLeahy" title="User talk:PaddyLeahy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-PaddyLeahy-2008-05-04T22:32:00.000Z-SheffieldSteel-2008-04-28T17:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:32, 4 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PaddyLeahy-2008-05-04T22:32:00.000Z-SheffieldSteel-2008-04-28T17:39:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PaddyLeahy-2008-05-04T22:32:00.000Z-SheffieldSteel-2008-04-28T17:39:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Barry_Fell" data-mw-thread-id="h-Barry_Fell-2008-04-09T11:19:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Barry_Fell-2008-04-09T11:19:00.000Z"></span>Barry Fell<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Barry_Fell-2008-04-09T11:19:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-09T11:19:00.000Z-Barry_Fell"></span>User Cadwallader thinks the <a href="/wiki/Barry_Fell" title="Barry Fell">Barry Fell</a> article is not NPOV. He has heavily edited it, putting in a large section from a self-published web page with claims I have checked in any case and seem to have no weight or evidence behind them. Based on that self-published site, he writes "scientific inquiry proved him correct on the one point where academia had published a critique and defamation of him as a "fraud"." See the talk page where I discuss this. He has also added "The West Virginia Archaeologist, which claims to be a peer reviewed journal, published a few other articles critical of Fell, including one by Edo Nyland, a physics professor, who agreed the inscription was Ogam but translated it in the Basque language as a story about a failed buffalo hunt. Though Oppenheimer and Wirtz were Washington D.C. attorneys with no formal expertise in petroglyphs or ancient scripts, their "expert" rebuttal is still being used to discredit Fell today[5]." Maybe the magazine claims to be peer reviewed, I don't know. What I do know is that Edo Nyland is only quoted in the magazine, he is not the author of an article, and the sentence beginning with 'though' is editorial. Note that Barry Fell himself has no formal expertise in anything but marine biology. I see Til Eulenspiegel has also joined in. I'm not sure where to go from here, but the Pyle stuff should be removed I believe as failing <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RELIABLE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RELIABLE">WP:RELIABLE</a> but obviously Til Eulenspiegel and Cadwallader don't see it that way. </p> <dl><dd>Have made some edits to the article but it continues to be sadly lacking in sources. It would be useful if someone could verify that the <i>West Virginia Archaeologist</i> is a peer-reviewed academic journal. <a href="/wiki/User:Itsmejudith" title="User:Itsmejudith">Itsmejudith</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Itsmejudith" title="User talk:Itsmejudith">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-09T11:19:00.000Z-Barry_Fell" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:19, 9 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-09T11:19:00.000Z-Barry_Fell"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-09T11:19:00.000Z-Barry_Fell"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dougweller-2008-04-09T13:50:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-09T11:19:00.000Z"></span>I've found some more articles to use as sources but I'm not sure about West Virginia Archaeologist. But I doubt that articles are sent to archaeologists outside West Virginia to review before publication.<a href="/wiki/User:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dougweller">Doug Weller</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Dougweller">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dougweller-2008-04-09T13:50:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-09T11:19:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:50, 9 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dougweller-2008-04-09T13:50:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-09T11:19:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dougweller-2008-04-09T13:50:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-09T11:19:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-70.105.31.77-2008-04-09T14:04:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-04-09T13:50:00.000Z"></span>Do authors have to send their articles to a certain geographic location to be reviewed by their own peers? What if we decide that all articles will have to be sent to Moscow and approved there, in order to be considered "peer reviewed"? This is the problem with using terms like "peer reviewed" to game the NPOV policy about mentioning all significant views, whenever you have an argument like "<i>Our</i> books that say ABC are okay, but <i>your</i> books that say XYZ are not, and may not even be mentioned, or treated neutrally." (Note there are many such situations where "our" books say this and "your" books say the opposite, but usually we do not try to play judge between them, and instead we usually end up simply stating what both, or all, published schools of thought say. Since ones "peers" are generally authors within one's own school of thought, of course they can all usually claim to be "peer reviewed", so this term can be more ambiguous than useful for NPOV.) <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/70.105.31.77" title="Special:Contributions/70.105.31.77">70.105.31.77</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:70.105.31.77&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:70.105.31.77 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-70.105.31.77-2008-04-09T14:04:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-04-09T13:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-70.105.31.77-2008-04-09T14:04:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-04-09T13:50:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-70.105.31.77-2008-04-09T14:04:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-04-09T13:50:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-11T17:29:00.000Z-70.105.31.77-2008-04-09T14:04:00.000Z"></span>An <a href="/wiki/Academic_journal" title="Academic journal">academic journal</a> is a peer-reviewed scholarly periodical, usually published by one of the large major academic publishing houses. Research articles are sent before publication to independent reviewers who have a good background in the subject and are nearly always academics in universities other than the one where the authors work. They may also publish non peer-reviewed material: editorials, book reviews, articles by non-academics such as professional practitioners, notices of research in progress. Sounds we cannot establish that WVA comes into this category. <a href="/wiki/User:Itsmejudith" title="User:Itsmejudith">Itsmejudith</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Itsmejudith" title="User talk:Itsmejudith">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-11T17:29:00.000Z-70.105.31.77-2008-04-09T14:04:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:29, 11 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-11T17:29:00.000Z-70.105.31.77-2008-04-09T14:04:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Itsmejudith-2008-04-11T17:29:00.000Z-70.105.31.77-2008-04-09T14:04:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SteveMcCluskey-2008-05-07T13:23:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-11T17:29:00.000Z"></span>Writing from West Virginia, I can say that <i>West Virginia Archaeologist</i> is a serious local archaeological journal sponsored by a society of professional archaeologists, the <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://cwva.org/ourorg/bylaws.html">Council for West Virginia Archaeology</a>, whose members are "persons who have a postgraduate (M.A. or Ph.D.) degree with a research specialization in archaeology or allied fields such as geology, history, botany, physical anthropology, cultural anthropology or cultural resources management." I do not know their journal's peer-review policies.</dd> <dd>On the other hand, the magazine in which the claims by Pyle, Fell, and Gallagher first appeared, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.wonderfulwv.com/"><i>Wonderful West Virginia</i></a>, is published by the WV Division of Natural Resources and one of it's major functions is tourism development.</dd> <dd>Another source may be an editorial in <i>Antiquity</i> which I came across a long time ago, dated about the time of the early articles on the West Virginia site, which commented on it as an example of Fringe archaeology. Sorry I don't have a good reference but anyone with access to <i>Antiquity</i> might want to try to hunt it down. --<a href="/wiki/User:SteveMcCluskey" title="User:SteveMcCluskey">SteveMcCluskey</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SteveMcCluskey" title="User talk:SteveMcCluskey">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-SteveMcCluskey-2008-05-07T13:23:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-11T17:29:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SteveMcCluskey-2008-05-07T13:23:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-11T17:29:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SteveMcCluskey-2008-05-07T13:23:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-04-11T17:29:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-07T14:19:00.000Z-SteveMcCluskey-2008-05-07T13:23:00.000Z"></span>Searched by West Virginia and Barry Fell, no luck. Maybe they don't index editorials.--<a href="/wiki/User:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dougweller">Doug Weller</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Dougweller">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dougweller-2008-05-07T14:19:00.000Z-SteveMcCluskey-2008-05-07T13:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:19, 7 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-07T14:19:00.000Z-SteveMcCluskey-2008-05-07T13:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dougweller-2008-05-07T14:19:00.000Z-SteveMcCluskey-2008-05-07T13:23:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Racism_in_association_football#Poland" data-mw-thread-id="h-Racism_in_association_football#Poland-2008-05-05T15:23:00.000Z"><span id="Racism_in_association_football.23Poland"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Racism_in_association_football#Poland-2008-05-05T15:23:00.000Z"></span><a href="/wiki/Racism_in_association_football#Poland" title="Racism in association football">Racism_in_association_football#Poland</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Racism_in_association_football#Poland-2008-05-05T15:23:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M0RD00R-2008-05-05T15:23:00.000Z-Racism_in_association_football#Poland"></span>User insist on insertion of off-topic (my opinion) material about leftist symbols <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Racism_in_association_football&diff=210316142&oldid=210280820">[23]</a> into this article about <a href="/wiki/Racism_in_football" class="mw-redirect" title="Racism in football">Racism in football</a> because, his argument - "it is sourced". Sourced on "Gazeta Polska" a weakly which is called "far right" <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://books.google.com/books?id=6HI5Bbn9e8sC&pg=PA223&dq=%22gazeta+polska%22+%22far+right%22&lr=&ei=lSEfSJqtFIi2jgHTtM2RBg&hl=lt&sig=GTnxkrRwCvzAXdyAOoVxVvdP2sQ">[24]</a>? and "should not be considered mainstream". <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://books.google.com/books?id=6HI5Bbn9e8sC&pg=PA223&dq=%22gazeta+polska%22+%22far+right%22+%22should+not+be+considered+mainstream%22&lr=&ei=-CIfSPGYNoKijgHLqdGDBg&hl=lt&sig=GTnxkrRwCvzAXdyAOoVxVvdP2sQ">[25]</a> . <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:FRINGE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:FRINGE">WP:FRINGE</a>? Discussion here <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Racism_in_association_football#Requesting_third_opinion_on_Tymek_edits">[26]</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:M0RD00R" class="mw-redirect" title="User:M0RD00R">M0RD00R</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M0RD00R" title="User talk:M0RD00R">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-M0RD00R-2008-05-05T15:23:00.000Z-Racism_in_association_football#Poland" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M0RD00R-2008-05-05T15:23:00.000Z-Racism_in_association_football#Poland"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M0RD00R-2008-05-05T15:23:00.000Z-Racism_in_association_football#Poland"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Dorje_Shugden" data-mw-thread-id="h-Dorje_Shugden-2008-05-06T09:24:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Dorje_Shugden-2008-05-06T09:24:00.000Z"></span><a href="/wiki/Dorje_Shugden" title="Dorje Shugden">Dorje Shugden</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Dorje_Shugden-2008-05-06T09:24:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Relata_refero-2008-05-06T09:24:00.000Z-Dorje_Shugden"></span>Controversy surrounding cult-like sub-group of <a href="/wiki/Tibetan_Buddhism" title="Tibetan Buddhism">Tibetan Buddhism</a> that claims great antiquity. Spreading over onto <a href="/wiki/Dalai_Lama" title="Dalai Lama">Dalai Lama</a>, <a href="/wiki/Tenzin_Gyatso" class="mw-redirect" title="Tenzin Gyatso">Tenzin Gyatso</a> and other high-profile pages. Those familiar with the field might be interested in keeping an eye on it. --<span style="font-family:Georgia"><a href="/wiki/User:Relata_refero" title="User:Relata refero">Relata refero</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Relata_refero" title="User talk:Relata refero">disp.</a>)</span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Relata_refero-2008-05-06T09:24:00.000Z-Dorje_Shugden" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:24, 6 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Relata_refero-2008-05-06T09:24:00.000Z-Dorje_Shugden"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Relata_refero-2008-05-06T09:24:00.000Z-Dorje_Shugden"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Relata_refero-2008-05-07T07:49:00.000Z-Relata_refero-2008-05-06T09:24:00.000Z"></span>See also <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ANI#Dorje_Shugden" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ANI">WP:ANI#Dorje Shugden</a>. --<span style="font-family:Georgia"><a href="/wiki/User:Relata_refero" title="User:Relata refero">Relata refero</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Relata_refero" title="User talk:Relata refero">disp.</a>)</span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Relata_refero-2008-05-07T07:49:00.000Z-Relata_refero-2008-05-06T09:24:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Relata_refero-2008-05-07T07:49:00.000Z-Relata_refero-2008-05-06T09:24:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Relata_refero-2008-05-07T07:49:00.000Z-Relata_refero-2008-05-06T09:24:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Reddi_(talk_·_contribs)" data-mw-thread-id="h-Reddi_(talk_·_contribs)-2008-05-06T19:00:00.000Z"><span id="Reddi_.28talk_.C2.B7_contribs.29"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Reddi_(talk_·_contribs)-2008-05-06T19:00:00.000Z"></span><a href="/wiki/User:Reddi" title="User:Reddi">Reddi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Reddi" title="User talk:Reddi">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Reddi" title="Special:Contributions/Reddi">contribs</a>)<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Reddi_(talk_·_contribs)-2008-05-06T19:00:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-06T19:00:00.000Z-Reddi_(talk_·_contribs)"></span>I did not remember this user, and did not note the warning <a href="#Reddi.27s_back">above</a> -- hence a heads up that this user is currently wreaking havoc in the <a href="/wiki/Ancient_history" title="Ancient history">ancient history</a> topics. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-05-06T19:00:00.000Z-Reddi_(talk_·_contribs)" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:00, 6 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-06T19:00:00.000Z-Reddi_(talk_·_contribs)"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-06T19:00:00.000Z-Reddi_(talk_·_contribs)"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moreschi-2008-05-06T19:19:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-06T19:00:00.000Z"></span>Ouch. He's created <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Ancient_history_by_continent" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Ancient history by continent">Ancient history by continent</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> and a whole bunch of very strange articles, and is reverting the addition of split and merge tags. None of the articles seem to me to have much more merit than would an <a href="/w/index.php?title=Ancient_history_of_Antarctica&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Ancient history of Antarctica (page does not exist)">Ancient history of Antarctica</a>, but since he doesn't look to be in the mood to discuss things, it's hard to know what the justification is. <a href="/wiki/User:Moreschi" title="User:Moreschi">Moreschi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moreschi" title="User talk:Moreschi">talk</a>) (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Folantin/Userspace_Folantin5&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin5 (page does not exist)">debate</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Moreschi-2008-05-06T19:19:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-06T19:00:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moreschi-2008-05-06T19:19:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-06T19:00:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moreschi-2008-05-06T19:19:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-06T19:00:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-06T19:59:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-05-06T19:19:00.000Z"></span>He seems to think an article on <a href="/w/index.php?title=Ancient_European_History&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Ancient European History (page does not exist)">Ancient European History</a> should include the Hittites and Egypt, and is somehow different from <a href="/wiki/Classical_antiquity" title="Classical antiquity">Classical antiquity</a>. He's actually left the tag on this one and has opposed a merge (I'm for a simple redirect). <a href="/wiki/User:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dougweller">Doug Weller</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Dougweller">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dougweller-2008-05-06T19:59:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-05-06T19:19:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:59, 6 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-06T19:59:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-05-06T19:19:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dougweller-2008-05-06T19:59:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-05-06T19:19:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-07T07:31:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-06T19:59:00.000Z"></span>And <a href="/wiki/Ancient_American_history" class="mw-redirect" title="Ancient American history">Ancient American history</a> -- the penny dropped when I saw it. He's included non-literate cultures like the <a href="/wiki/Adena" class="mw-disambig" title="Adena">Adena</a> and <a href="/wiki/Mississippian_culture" title="Mississippian culture">Mississippian culture</a> and <a href="/wiki/Poverty_Point" title="Poverty Point">Poverty Point</a>. I couldn't figure that out, but they are all linked to fringe claims of inscriptions, etc. <a href="/wiki/Bat_Creek_stone" class="mw-redirect" title="Bat Creek stone">Bat Creek stone</a>, <a href="/w/index.php?title=Grave_Creek_stone&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Grave Creek stone (page does not exist)">Grave Creek stone</a>, etc. <a href="/wiki/Ancient_Australian_history" class="mw-redirect" title="Ancient Australian history">Ancient Australian history</a> - there is no aboriginal writing, but he seems to want to prove there is (the book he references there is about 19th and 20th century writing by aborigines, I'm not sure what he thinks it proves.) Then there is <a href="/wiki/Ancient_African_history" class="mw-redirect" title="Ancient African history">Ancient African history</a>, most of which is about non-literate cultures. I'm not sure where he plans to take this. My other problem is that he doesn't reference very much or very well (I'm going to have to look up 'A-group peoples' in the Sudan, a reference would have been nice. On one article, he uses an 1870 book and a non-academic web page to tell us when academics date the end of 'ancient history' (ok, that can be fixed, but...).--<a href="/wiki/User:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dougweller">Doug Weller</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Dougweller">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dougweller-2008-05-07T07:31:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-06T19:59:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:31, 7 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-07T07:31:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-06T19:59:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dougweller-2008-05-07T07:31:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-06T19:59:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-07T07:42:00.000Z-Reddi_(talk_·_contribs)"></span>I have no problem with calling prehistoric Africa "Ancient Africa", or prehistoric Australia "Ancient Australia", but the point is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CFORK" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CFORK">WP:CFORK</a>. Since we already have <a href="/wiki/Prehistoric_Australia" class="mw-redirect" title="Prehistoric Australia">Prehistoric Australia</a>, <a href="/wiki/Ancient_Australia" class="mw-redirect" title="Ancient Australia">Ancient Australia</a> should just be a redirect there. Obviously, talking about "Early Middle Ages" in the context of Australia is about as clueless as it gets. I am not holding my breath to see anything useful from Reddi at this point. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-05-07T07:42:00.000Z-Reddi_(talk_·_contribs)" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:42, 7 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-07T07:42:00.000Z-Reddi_(talk_·_contribs)"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-07T07:42:00.000Z-Reddi_(talk_·_contribs)"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-07T07:56:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-07T07:42:00.000Z"></span>And take a look at what he's included in <a href="/wiki/Ancient_history" title="Ancient history">Ancient history</a> -- I've made some comments at the bottom of the talk page. 19th century references to Egyptians studying lightning, electric eels, etc. Egyptians knowing about aerodynamic forces. He deleted a lot of good stuff and has restructured the article.--<a href="/wiki/User:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dougweller">Doug Weller</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Dougweller">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dougweller-2008-05-07T07:56:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-07T07:42:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:56, 7 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-07T07:56:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-07T07:42:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dougweller-2008-05-07T07:56:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-07T07:42:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-07T13:15:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-07T07:56:00.000Z"></span>sigh -- Reddi has a long history of such nonsense. It may be time to let him know Wikipedia doesn't put up with his approach to things. Let him keep a blog or something, but it will not do to have him keep wasting everybody's time. --<a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-05-07T13:15:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-07T07:56:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:15, 7 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-07T13:15:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-07T07:56:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-07T13:15:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-07T07:56:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Centrifugal_force" data-mw-thread-id="h-Centrifugal_force-2008-05-04T17:17:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Centrifugal_force-2008-05-04T17:17:00.000Z"></span><a href="/wiki/Centrifugal_force" title="Centrifugal force">Centrifugal force</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Centrifugal_force-2008-05-04T17:17:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-The_Anome-2008-05-04T17:17:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force"></span>This article is the site of a conflict between a single indefatigable editor who takes the position that centrifugal force is a real, true, and undeniable phenomenon that exists independently of coordinate frames, and every other editor of the page, who report the standard interpretation of centrifugal force supported by all known reliable sources, in which it is regarded as a <a href="/wiki/Pseudo-force" class="mw-redirect" title="Pseudo-force">pseudo-force</a> that can be described in terms of coordinate transformations of the standard Newtonian equations of motion in an inertial frame. </p><p>No matter how many other editors explain this to them, they are steadfast in their determination that the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:TRUTH" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:TRUTH">WP:TRUTH</a> must prevail. They are impervious to requests that they provide references to support their view. They are impervious to citations to reliable sources, to polite arguments, to mathematical demonstrations of the effects of coordinate transforms, to animated diagrams showing how the motion of objects appears under these transforms, to polite appeals to abide by policies such as <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">Neutral Point of View</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:V" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:V">verifiability</a> from <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">reliable sources</a>, and avoiding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR">original research</a>. </p><p>Instead, they insist that other editors are unintelligent, incapable of properly understanding physics, and are conspiring against them to suppress the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:TRUTH" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:TRUTH">WP:TRUTH</a>; indeed, this essay could almost have been written to describe their editing style. </p><p>They appear to be intelligent and sincere, but simply unwilling -- in the interests of THE TRUTH -- to engage in the normal Wikipedia processes. Instead, their strategy appears to be to "win" by simply outlasting other participants in the editing process, something in which they have made considerable progress to date. (I have also considered the possibility that they are a knowledgeable person who is simply trolling for kicks, similar to the behavior of one editor in the <a href="/wiki/0.999..." title="0.999...">0.999...</a> saga, but I prefer to assume good faith.) </p><p>Repeated attempts to forge a compromise, using <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">WP:NPOV</a>, have failed to resolve this conflict, largely because they are unwilling to provide supporting cites which might be used to demonstrate that there is a real controversy over this issue in the citable literature. </p><p>As a result, the article has become a mish-mash as it is edited to and fro. I am at a loss to see how this process can be resolved. -- <a href="/wiki/User:The_Anome" title="User:The Anome">The Anome</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:The_Anome" title="User talk:The Anome">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-The_Anome-2008-05-04T17:17:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:17, 4 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-The_Anome-2008-05-04T17:17:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-The_Anome-2008-05-04T17:17:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-04T17:35:00.000Z-The_Anome-2008-05-04T17:17:00.000Z"></span>can we not just revert editors who clearly have neither a grasp on their chosen subject nor on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a>? This should be a non-issue. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-05-04T17:35:00.000Z-The_Anome-2008-05-04T17:17:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:35, 4 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-04T17:35:00.000Z-The_Anome-2008-05-04T17:17:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-04T17:35:00.000Z-The_Anome-2008-05-04T17:17:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-The_Anome-2008-05-04T17:47:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-04T17:35:00.000Z"></span>Take a look at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Centrifugal_force" title="Talk:Centrifugal force">Talk:Centrifugal force</a>. They are very careful to ignore all discussions involving Wikipedia policy, and have an engaging style that exploits the good faith of other editors. I entered this as an outside party, trying to broker a compromise using NPOV. I realize now that I should probably have simply threatened them with blocking unless they followed <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:V" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:V">WP:V</a>, rather than getting sucked into the discussion, or just kicked this to arbitration, but by now I'm too embroiled in the argument to act as an enforcer of policy without the appearance of conflict of interest. -- <a href="/wiki/User:The_Anome" title="User:The Anome">The Anome</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:The_Anome" title="User talk:The Anome">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-The_Anome-2008-05-04T17:47:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-04T17:35:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:47, 4 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-The_Anome-2008-05-04T17:47:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-04T17:35:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-The_Anome-2008-05-04T17:47:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-04T17:35:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-04T17:51:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force"></span>wow, looking at <a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:David_Tombe&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:David Tombe (page does not exist)">User talk:David Tombe</a>, this does seem to be a case of somebody simply Not Getting It, and admin action may be appropriate at this point. The arbcom will just make a bureaucratic mess of this. We have many many competent editors on physics topics, and they're positive angels to clueless blunderers as a rule, and when somebody just keeps going in spite of everyone, they should just run into blocks of escalating lengths. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-05-04T17:51:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:51, 4 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-04T17:51:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-04T17:51:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Plvekamp-2008-05-04T20:30:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force"></span>There's been admin action before, when this user had no user account and edited from many IP accounts <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RRArchive37#User:210.213.229.36_and_other_IPs_.28.22David_Tombe.22.29_reported_by_User:Henning_Makholm_.28Result:_8h.29">[27]</a>. He's repeating similar behavior now but being very careful to avoid 3RR by not reverting, instead just deleting and reinserting material to fit his POV. Be prepared for a multiple-page useless debate if you try to discuss it with him in good faith. I'm at a loss myself on how best to deal with him. I think it would be best if a disinterested 3rd party brought this up for <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ANI" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ANI">WP:ANI</a> (i.e., someone who hasn't edited those articles recently). <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Plvekamp&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Plvekamp (page does not exist)">Plvekamp</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Plvekamp" title="User talk:Plvekamp">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Plvekamp-2008-05-04T20:30:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:30, 4 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Plvekamp-2008-05-04T20:30:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Plvekamp-2008-05-04T20:30:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Plvekamp-2008-05-04T21:16:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force"></span>It seems he's taking a break for awhile. Let's see how long it lasts, the situation may have resolved itself. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Plvekamp&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Plvekamp (page does not exist)">Plvekamp</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Plvekamp" title="User talk:Plvekamp">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Plvekamp-2008-05-04T21:16:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:16, 4 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Plvekamp-2008-05-04T21:16:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Plvekamp-2008-05-04T21:16:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moreschi-2008-05-04T21:39:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force"></span><scratches head> I usually just block disruptive SPAs indefinitely. Don't know about wikibreak, either, he's been busy editing today. Seeing as he's been going for so long under the IPs, he's not a newbie and appears to have been adequately warned. <a href="/wiki/User:Moreschi" title="User:Moreschi">Moreschi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moreschi" title="User talk:Moreschi">talk</a>) (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Folantin/Userspace_Folantin5&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin5 (page does not exist)">debate</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Moreschi-2008-05-04T21:39:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:39, 4 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moreschi-2008-05-04T21:39:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moreschi-2008-05-04T21:39:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SCZenz-2008-05-05T13:01:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force"></span>If this requires administrator intervention, you can also just ask me for help. I haven't done anything with <a href="/wiki/Centrifugal_force" title="Centrifugal force">centrifugal force</a> in a very long time. -- <a href="/wiki/User:SCZenz" title="User:SCZenz">SCZenz</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SCZenz" title="User talk:SCZenz">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-SCZenz-2008-05-05T13:01:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:01, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SCZenz-2008-05-05T13:01:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SCZenz-2008-05-05T13:01:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-The_Anome-2008-05-05T18:44:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force"></span>Yes, I'm afraid he's at it again: see <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Centrifugal_force&diff=210347453&oldid=210346048">this diff</a>, where the whole package of ideas is shoved back in again after having been removed for lack of references, complete with an edit comment that says "this has got nothing to do with references." Please also see my most recent comment on the talk page of the editor in question. -- <a href="/wiki/User:The_Anome" title="User:The Anome">The Anome</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:The_Anome" title="User talk:The Anome">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-The_Anome-2008-05-05T18:44:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:44, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-The_Anome-2008-05-05T18:44:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-The_Anome-2008-05-05T18:44:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SCZenz-2008-05-05T22:07:00.000Z-The_Anome-2008-05-05T18:44:00.000Z"></span>I have warned him in regard to that edit. Please keep me informed of any further developments. -- <a href="/wiki/User:SCZenz" title="User:SCZenz">SCZenz</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SCZenz" title="User talk:SCZenz">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-SCZenz-2008-05-05T22:07:00.000Z-The_Anome-2008-05-05T18:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:07, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SCZenz-2008-05-05T22:07:00.000Z-The_Anome-2008-05-05T18:44:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SCZenz-2008-05-05T22:07:00.000Z-The_Anome-2008-05-05T18:44:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Plvekamp-2008-05-05T23:12:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force"></span>I think the edits in question are coatracking in order to support the theory in this paper <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.wbabin.net/science/tombe36.pdf">[28]</a> in a non-peer reviewed internet journal. The paper claims that inertia is due to centrifugal force in the aether, and much of it is based on the misconceptions contained in the edits this user keeps inserting into the article. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Plvekamp&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Plvekamp (page does not exist)">Plvekamp</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Plvekamp" title="User talk:Plvekamp">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Plvekamp-2008-05-05T23:12:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:12, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Plvekamp-2008-05-05T23:12:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Plvekamp-2008-05-05T23:12:00.000Z-Centrifugal_force"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-David_Tombe-2008-05-06T08:27:00.000Z-Plvekamp-2008-05-05T23:12:00.000Z"></span>Perhaps I ought to be allowed a say here too. The sole purpose of my intervetion on the centrifugal force pages was to tidy it up. There is one centrifugal force. It acts radially and it gets induced by tangential motion.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>The existing article had split the topic into two and misrepresented both aspects. The main topic concentrates on the issue of rotating frames of references but ignores the fact that any actual centrifugal effects only occur on objects that are co-rotating with the rotating frame.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Most of my edits have been instantly removed by persons who clearly know very little about centrifugal force.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>No fringe theory is being pushed. I am merely drawing attention to the age old <a href="/wiki/Bucket_argument" title="Bucket argument">Bucket argument</a> which points out that no actual effects occur on a stationary object which is viewed from a rotating frame of reference, whereas an actual centrifugal pressure can be induced by actual rotation. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:David_Tombe&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:David Tombe (page does not exist)">David Tombe</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:David_Tombe&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:David Tombe (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-David_Tombe-2008-05-06T08:27:00.000Z-Plvekamp-2008-05-05T23:12:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:27, 6 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-David_Tombe-2008-05-06T08:27:00.000Z-Plvekamp-2008-05-05T23:12:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-David_Tombe-2008-05-06T08:27:00.000Z-Plvekamp-2008-05-05T23:12:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-The_Anome-2008-05-08T12:22:00.000Z-Plvekamp-2008-05-05T23:12:00.000Z"></span>Yet more warnings, followed by a 3 hour block by SCZenz, seem not to have had any effect, and David is still inserting the contentious content without providing supporting references. After a thorough review of the entire affair, and in spite of my precious reservations, this now seems to me to be a clearly defined case where blocking is appropriate. Accordingly, I've now blocked David for 31 hours; see <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ADavid_Tombe&diff=211015119&oldid=210865907">this message</a> on his talk page for my rationale. -- <a href="/wiki/User:The_Anome" title="User:The Anome">The Anome</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:The_Anome" title="User talk:The Anome">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-The_Anome-2008-05-08T12:22:00.000Z-Plvekamp-2008-05-05T23:12:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:22, 8 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-The_Anome-2008-05-08T12:22:00.000Z-Plvekamp-2008-05-05T23:12:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-The_Anome-2008-05-08T12:22:00.000Z-Plvekamp-2008-05-05T23:12:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="New_Chronology_(Fomenko)" data-mw-thread-id="h-New_Chronology_(Fomenko)-2008-05-06T20:01:00.000Z"><span id="New_Chronology_.28Fomenko.29"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-New_Chronology_(Fomenko)-2008-05-06T20:01:00.000Z"></span><a href="/wiki/New_Chronology_(Fomenko)" class="mw-redirect" title="New Chronology (Fomenko)">New Chronology (Fomenko)‎</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-New_Chronology_(Fomenko)-2008-05-06T20:01:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-06T20:01:00.000Z-New_Chronology_(Fomenko)"></span>This already had a lot of detail about Fomenko's arguments, now someone has added a huge wodge more which may be OR, certainly seems <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Undue" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Undue">WP:Undue</a> -- he didn't like my reverting it.--<a href="/wiki/User:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dougweller">Doug Weller</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Dougweller">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dougweller-2008-05-06T20:01:00.000Z-New_Chronology_(Fomenko)" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-06T20:01:00.000Z-New_Chronology_(Fomenko)"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dougweller-2008-05-06T20:01:00.000Z-New_Chronology_(Fomenko)"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SteveMcCluskey-2008-05-06T22:34:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-06T20:01:00.000Z"></span>I've always been suspicious of this page, as the proponents seem to be related to the publisher of the book, and therefore also involves <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:COI" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:COI">WP:COI</a>. Since documenting this would involve some use of off-Wiki material, I've been reluctant to go down that route. A Russian colleague, however, has expressed the opinion that Fomenko's work has moved from scholarship to pseudo-science to a purely commercial activity. I'll revert your material again and see what happens. --<a href="/wiki/User:SteveMcCluskey" title="User:SteveMcCluskey">SteveMcCluskey</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SteveMcCluskey" title="User talk:SteveMcCluskey">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-SteveMcCluskey-2008-05-06T22:34:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-06T20:01:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:34, 6 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SteveMcCluskey-2008-05-06T22:34:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-06T20:01:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SteveMcCluskey-2008-05-06T22:34:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-06T20:01:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-08T11:04:00.000Z-SteveMcCluskey-2008-05-06T22:34:00.000Z"></span>It's back, and I've put on the Talk page that it's not clear what is actually Fomenko et al and what is the editor's perspective on them.--<a href="/wiki/User:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dougweller">Doug Weller</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Dougweller">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dougweller-2008-05-08T11:04:00.000Z-SteveMcCluskey-2008-05-06T22:34:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-08T11:04:00.000Z-SteveMcCluskey-2008-05-06T22:34:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dougweller-2008-05-08T11:04:00.000Z-SteveMcCluskey-2008-05-06T22:34:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Sangreal_Sodality" data-mw-thread-id="h-Sangreal_Sodality-2008-05-07T21:39:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Sangreal_Sodality-2008-05-07T21:39:00.000Z"></span><a href="/wiki/Sangreal_Sodality" class="mw-redirect" title="Sangreal Sodality">Sangreal Sodality</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Sangreal_Sodality-2008-05-07T21:39:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-07T21:39:00.000Z-Sangreal_Sodality"></span>Earlier today I tagged this article for proposed deletion. Since it is pretty fringe, I thought I might as well mention that here. (I considered tagging it for rapid deletion, because a substantial part of the article seems blatant advertising to promote their group, but was not sure if it really qualified.) <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">Malcolm Schosha</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-07T21:39:00.000Z-Sangreal_Sodality" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:39, 7 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-07T21:39:00.000Z-Sangreal_Sodality"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-07T21:39:00.000Z-Sangreal_Sodality"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-08T08:31:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-07T21:39:00.000Z"></span>Tag removed by an administrator because you didn't give a reason (you did in the edit summary but it needs to be given--<a href="/wiki/User:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dougweller">Doug Weller</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Dougweller">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dougweller-2008-05-08T08:31:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-07T21:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-08T08:31:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-07T21:39:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dougweller-2008-05-08T08:31:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-07T21:39:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-08T10:52:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-08T08:31:00.000Z"></span>this is just a matter of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NOTE">WP:NOTE</a> (specifically, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ORG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ORG">WP:ORG</a>). There are no "fringe" claim as such. As long as no third party sources establish the notability of this thing, it should just be redirected to <a href="/wiki/William_G._Gray" title="William G. Gray">William G. Gray</a>. --<a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-05-08T10:52:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-08T08:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:52, 8 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-08T10:52:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-08T08:31:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-08T10:52:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-08T08:31:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-08T11:39:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-08T10:52:00.000Z"></span>I asked DDG, who removed the tag, what I did wrong <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG#Sangreal_Sodality">[29]</a>. It seems that article has been speedy deleted a number of times, and always restored. I might try an AfD. Merging would be a logical move, but that would not necessarily remove the blatant advertising. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">Malcolm Schosha</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-08T11:39:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-08T10:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:39, 8 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-08T11:39:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-08T10:52:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-08T11:39:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-08T10:52:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-08T12:05:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-08T11:39:00.000Z"></span>you should just redirect it and see what happens. I do agree that no notability is established as the article stands. Redirects are cheap. --<a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-05-08T12:05:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-08T11:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:05, 8 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-08T12:05:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-08T11:39:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-08T12:05:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-08T11:39:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mangoe-2008-05-08T12:52:00.000Z-Sangreal_Sodality"></span>I've nominated both articles for deletion since the only "notability" given for Gray is as the originator of this. <a href="/wiki/User:Mangoe" title="User:Mangoe">Mangoe</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mangoe" title="User talk:Mangoe">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Mangoe-2008-05-08T12:52:00.000Z-Sangreal_Sodality" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:52, 8 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mangoe-2008-05-08T12:52:00.000Z-Sangreal_Sodality"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mangoe-2008-05-08T12:52:00.000Z-Sangreal_Sodality"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Is_this_distortion_of_a_source_(reddi_again)?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Is_this_distortion_of_a_source_(reddi_again)?-2008-05-08T13:26:00.000Z"><span id="Is_this_distortion_of_a_source_.28reddi_again.29.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Is_this_distortion_of_a_source_(reddi_again)?-2008-05-08T13:26:00.000Z"></span>Is this distortion of a source (reddi again)?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Is_this_distortion_of_a_source_(reddi_again)?-2008-05-08T13:26:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-08T13:26:00.000Z-Is_this_distortion_of_a_source_(reddi_again)?"></span>The article <a href="/wiki/Dendera_light" title="Dendera light">Dendera light</a> says "As far back as 1894, J. N. Lockyer mentioned in passing the possibilities of lamps.[4" and the footnote is "J. Norman Lockyer, "Dawn of Astronomy". Kessinger Publishing, 1992. 448 pages. <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/1564591123" title="Special:BookSources/1564591123">1564591123</a> (c.f., "[...] possibility that the electric light was known to the Ancient Egyptians.)" I looked this up. What I found on page 180 of P. 180 <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://books.google.com/books?id=62Wr_xF75dMC&pg=PA180&vq=electric&source=gbs_search_r&cad=1_1&sig=8lgS0EPxfTd_YqZeNeAto0_coPM">[30]</a> Dawn of Astronomy By J. Norman Lockyer was Lockyer suggesting that mirrors were used to illuminate areas where no direct light reached, writing that "in all freshly opened tombs there are no traces whatever of any kind of combusion having taken place, even in the innermost recesses. So strikingly evident is this that my friend M Bouriant, laughingly suggested the possibility that the electric light was known to the ancient Egyptians." Has this been interpreted reasonably in the article and footnote? I suspect the editor obtained the Kolbe quote, which I can't check, from here: <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Le_Grand_Roi_des_Citrouilles/List_of_unsolved_problems_in_Egyptology">[31]</a>. Thanks.--<a href="/wiki/User:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dougweller">Doug Weller</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Dougweller">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dougweller-2008-05-08T13:26:00.000Z-Is_this_distortion_of_a_source_(reddi_again)?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-08T13:26:00.000Z-Is_this_distortion_of_a_source_(reddi_again)?"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dougweller-2008-05-08T13:26:00.000Z-Is_this_distortion_of_a_source_(reddi_again)?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-05-08T17:26:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-08T13:26:00.000Z"></span>I tagged the article for notability. In the absence of any serious discussion... <a href="/wiki/User:Itsmejudith" title="User:Itsmejudith">Itsmejudith</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Itsmejudith" title="User talk:Itsmejudith">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Itsmejudith-2008-05-08T17:26:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-08T13:26:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-05-08T17:26:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-08T13:26:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Itsmejudith-2008-05-08T17:26:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-08T13:26:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Rokus_redivivus" data-mw-thread-id="h-Rokus_redivivus-2008-05-08T11:45:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Rokus_redivivus-2008-05-08T11:45:00.000Z"></span>Rokus redivivus<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Rokus_redivivus-2008-05-08T11:45:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><a href="/wiki/User:Rokus01" title="User:Rokus01"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Paul_Barlow-2008-05-08T11:45:00.000Z-Rokus_redivivus"></span>user:Rokus01</a> is back, keen to promote all things Aryan as usual, adding alleged Chinese Indo-European origins wherever he can <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chinese_language&diff=prev&oldid=210853367">[32]</a> and performing other marvels. <a href="/wiki/User:Paul_Barlow" title="User:Paul Barlow">Paul B</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paul_Barlow" title="User talk:Paul Barlow">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Paul_Barlow-2008-05-08T11:45:00.000Z-Rokus_redivivus" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:45, 8 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Paul_Barlow-2008-05-08T11:45:00.000Z-Rokus_redivivus"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Paul_Barlow-2008-05-08T11:45:00.000Z-Rokus_redivivus"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-08T12:04:00.000Z-Paul_Barlow-2008-05-08T11:45:00.000Z"></span>oh dear. Hadn't he been banned? His motto of questioning "appeals to authority" may be honourable in a researcher, but is of course crippling to an encyclopedia editor (an encyclopedia being nothing else but a giant appeal to all sorts of authorities). --<a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-05-08T12:04:00.000Z-Paul_Barlow-2008-05-08T11:45:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-08T12:04:00.000Z-Paul_Barlow-2008-05-08T11:45:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-08T12:04:00.000Z-Paul_Barlow-2008-05-08T11:45:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Merzbow-2008-05-08T23:46:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-08T12:04:00.000Z"></span>Time for an official community ban proposal? The big problem with his contributions is that they are on such esoteric topics that it's difficult for those not familiar with the topics in question to point out exactly what's wrong. (I was able to tell immediately that his additions to <a href="/wiki/Criticism_of_Islam" title="Criticism of Islam">Criticism of Islam</a>, for example, were rubbish, but am completely lost on the racial migration stuff). He's good at picking very obscure texts which make his additions appear to be well-sourced on the surface, but what he's actually doing is intermixing his personal opinions with stuff very few editors have access to (and which in many cases are in a foreign language). - <a href="/wiki/User:Merzbow" title="User:Merzbow">Merzbow</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Merzbow" title="User talk:Merzbow">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Merzbow-2008-05-08T23:46:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-08T12:04:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Merzbow-2008-05-08T23:46:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-08T12:04:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Merzbow-2008-05-08T23:46:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-08T12:04:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SYN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SYN"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-09T07:11:00.000Z-Merzbow-2008-05-08T23:46:00.000Z"></span>WP:SYN</a> might have been written for him. He's good at what he's doing, I'll grant him. Unfortunately what he's doing is conflicting with what everyone else is trying to do here. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-05-09T07:11:00.000Z-Merzbow-2008-05-08T23:46:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-09T07:11:00.000Z-Merzbow-2008-05-08T23:46:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-09T07:11:00.000Z-Merzbow-2008-05-08T23:46:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Hermetism_template" data-mw-thread-id="h-Hermetism_template-2008-05-09T17:19:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Hermetism_template-2008-05-09T17:19:00.000Z"></span>Hermetism template<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Hermetism_template-2008-05-09T17:19:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T17:19:00.000Z-Hermetism_template"></span>I do not know if it has been discussed here, but I noticed the other day that there seems to be a new Hermetism template, which can be seen (for instance) on the <a href="/wiki/Hermetism" class="mw-redirect" title="Hermetism">Hermetism</a> article, and on the <a href="/wiki/Hermetic_Qabalah" title="Hermetic Qabalah">Hermetic Qabalah</a> article. Of course there is nothing (as far as I know) hermetic about Hermetic Qabalah, which owes more to <a href="/wiki/Hermetic_Order_of_the_Golden_Dawn" title="Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn">Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn</a>, and to <a href="/wiki/Aleister_Crowley" title="Aleister Crowley">Aleister Crowley</a>, than to any classical source. Also, looking at the <a href="/wiki/Hermeticism" title="Hermeticism">Hermeticism</a> article, I see it unites a source in ancient Egypt with the 20th century lunatic Aleister Crowley -- which is complete nonsense. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">Malcolm Schosha</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T17:19:00.000Z-Hermetism_template" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T17:19:00.000Z-Hermetism_template"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T17:19:00.000Z-Hermetism_template"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-John_Carter-2008-05-09T17:28:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T17:19:00.000Z"></span>Yeah the template as created by <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:King_Vegita&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:King Vegita (page does not exist)">User:King Vegita</a>, to date the one and only member of the <a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Hermetism&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Hermetism (page does not exist)">Wikipedia:WikiProject Hermetism</a>, which I think he created at about the same time, along with the project banner and portal. He created the project on April 9, the banner, template, and portal later, generated a bit of concern regarding his activities, and disappeared on April 17. I wish I could say what to do in this case, but I honestly don't know. <a href="/wiki/User:John_Carter" title="User:John Carter">John Carter</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John_Carter" title="User talk:John Carter">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-John_Carter-2008-05-09T17:28:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T17:19:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:28, 9 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-John_Carter-2008-05-09T17:28:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T17:19:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-John_Carter-2008-05-09T17:28:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T17:19:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Blueboar-2008-05-09T17:37:00.000Z-John_Carter-2008-05-09T17:28:00.000Z"></span>These articles used to use the Hermet<b>ic</b>ism template (I am not sure what the difference is, except that King Vegita insists on it). <a href="/wiki/User:Blueboar" title="User:Blueboar">Blueboar</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Blueboar" title="User talk:Blueboar">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Blueboar-2008-05-09T17:37:00.000Z-John_Carter-2008-05-09T17:28:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Blueboar-2008-05-09T17:37:00.000Z-John_Carter-2008-05-09T17:28:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Blueboar-2008-05-09T17:37:00.000Z-John_Carter-2008-05-09T17:28:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Child_Sexual_Abuse" data-mw-thread-id="h-Child_Sexual_Abuse-2008-05-04T21:49:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Child_Sexual_Abuse-2008-05-04T21:49:00.000Z"></span><a href="/wiki/Child_Sexual_Abuse" class="mw-redirect" title="Child Sexual Abuse">Child Sexual Abuse</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Child_Sexual_Abuse-2008-05-04T21:49:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><a href="/wiki/User:PetraSchelm" title="User:PetraSchelm"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-04T21:49:00.000Z-Child_Sexual_Abuse"></span>User:PetraSchelm</a> has reverted (without prior discussion or consensus) a long-standing, sourced section on "Controversial Research", citing <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:COATRACK" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:COATRACK">WP:COATRACK</a>: </p><p><a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:COATRACK">[33]</a> </p><p>I'd like to invite discussion from other editors. My own view is that CSA has seen more than its fair share of "controversial" research, in addition to the non-controversial research carried out in the spirit of Kinsey, before the CSA paradigm became powerful as it is today. There is also lots of critical literature outside of the medical field that isn't even mentioned. </p><p>In this sense, coatrack does not justify the removal of whole sections, and the way that this was done was less than civil. <span style="font:bold 11px Arial;display:inline;border:#151B8D 1px solid;background-color:#ADDFFF;padding:0 4px 0 4px;"><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Jovin_Lambton&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Jovin Lambton (page does not exist)">Lambton</a></span> <sup><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jovin_Lambton&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Jovin Lambton (page does not exist)">T</a></sup>/<sub><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jovin_Lambton" title="Special:Contributions/Jovin Lambton">C</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-04T21:49:00.000Z-Child_Sexual_Abuse" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:49, 4 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-04T21:49:00.000Z-Child_Sexual_Abuse"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-04T21:49:00.000Z-Child_Sexual_Abuse"></span> </p><p><br/> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-04T21:53:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-04T21:49:00.000Z"></span>(edit conflict) An extreme fringe of researchers--including a pedophilia advocate who "analyzed" a hand-selected sample of 25 people 30 years ago--allege that child sexual abuse is harmless, and/or "the negative effects are not pervasive or long lasting, therefore some adults retain positive feelings about their childhood experience of sexual abuse." Two editors at this article believe that this fringe research constitutes a "controversy," that should be described in a lengthy paragraph in the article. I think this is undue weight, and a coatrack. Also, that dubious, discredited 10 and 30 + year old research doesn't belong in the article at all, and certainly doesn't rise to the level of a controversy meriting a paragraph. More input is welcome.-<a href="/wiki/User:PetraSchelm" title="User:PetraSchelm">PetraSchelm</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PetraSchelm" title="User talk:PetraSchelm">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-04T21:53:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-04T21:49:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:53, 4 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-04T21:53:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-04T21:49:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-04T21:53:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-04T21:49:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Child_sexual_abuse&oldid=210185893#Controversial_research"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moreschi-2008-05-04T22:06:00.000Z-Child_Sexual_Abuse"></span>Looking at this version of the article</a>, I agree some coatracking is going on and that the "Controversial research" section is too lengthy. Some mention of the most notable research is fine, with due discussion and rebuttals: three whole hefty paragraphs is probably not. Make it short and sweet. Certainly, this research is very fringy stuff, and should be dealt with as such. <a href="/wiki/User:Moreschi" title="User:Moreschi">Moreschi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moreschi" title="User talk:Moreschi">talk</a>) (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Folantin/Userspace_Folantin5&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin5 (page does not exist)">debate</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Moreschi-2008-05-04T22:06:00.000Z-Child_Sexual_Abuse" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:06, 4 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moreschi-2008-05-04T22:06:00.000Z-Child_Sexual_Abuse"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moreschi-2008-05-04T22:06:00.000Z-Child_Sexual_Abuse"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jack-A-Roe-2008-05-04T23:09:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-05-04T22:06:00.000Z"></span>I concur; a short summary of the conflict in context with rebuttals is appropriate, but the section as it was, was excessive. Care is needed to avoid <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:UNDUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:UNDUE">undue weight</a> for the fringe theories that have been derailing this and related articles for quite a while. --<a href="/wiki/User:Jack-A-Roe" title="User:Jack-A-Roe">Jack-A-Roe</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jack-A-Roe" title="User talk:Jack-A-Roe">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Jack-A-Roe-2008-05-04T23:09:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-05-04T22:06:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:09, 4 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jack-A-Roe-2008-05-04T23:09:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-05-04T22:06:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jack-A-Roe-2008-05-04T23:09:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-05-04T22:06:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moreschi-2008-05-04T23:13:00.000Z-Jack-A-Roe-2008-05-04T23:09:00.000Z"></span>Indeed. Articles relating to child sex abuse are a bit of a problem generally. We either get one extreme or the other: "abuse is everywhere" (the fights over <a href="/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse" class="mw-redirect" title="Satanic ritual abuse">Satanic ritual abuse</a>) or "abuse is no problem" (not here, but the fights over <a href="/w/index.php?title=Adult-child_sex&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Adult-child sex (page does not exist)">Adult-child sex</a> would be one example). <a href="/wiki/User:Moreschi" title="User:Moreschi">Moreschi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moreschi" title="User talk:Moreschi">talk</a>) (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Folantin/Userspace_Folantin5&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin5 (page does not exist)">debate</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Moreschi-2008-05-04T23:13:00.000Z-Jack-A-Roe-2008-05-04T23:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:13, 4 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moreschi-2008-05-04T23:13:00.000Z-Jack-A-Roe-2008-05-04T23:09:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moreschi-2008-05-04T23:13:00.000Z-Jack-A-Roe-2008-05-04T23:09:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-04T23:33:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-05-04T23:13:00.000Z"></span>Given that any research seen as controversial is almost excluded from the rest of the article, the removal of this section was improper. It leaves the article reflecting only one end of the spectrum in CSA research. It polarises the issue towards a misrepresentative, religiously medicalistic, clinical and illness-biased position on the subject. <span style="font:bold 11px Arial;display:inline;border:#151B8D 1px solid;background-color:#ADDFFF;padding:0 4px 0 4px;"><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Jovin_Lambton&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Jovin Lambton (page does not exist)">Lambton</a></span> <sup><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jovin_Lambton&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Jovin Lambton (page does not exist)">T</a></sup>/<sub><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jovin_Lambton" title="Special:Contributions/Jovin Lambton">C</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-04T23:33:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-05-04T23:13:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:33, 4 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-04T23:33:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-05-04T23:13:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-04T23:33:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-05-04T23:13:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SheffieldSteel-2008-05-04T23:48:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-04T23:33:00.000Z"></span>That's because everyone thinks it's so fucked up. See <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:UNDUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:UNDUE">WP:UNDUE</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:SheffieldSteel" title="User:SheffieldSteel"><span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span></a><sup><small><b><a href="/wiki/User_talk:SheffieldSteel" title="User talk:SheffieldSteel">TALK</a></b></small></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-SheffieldSteel-2008-05-04T23:48:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-04T23:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:48, 4 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SheffieldSteel-2008-05-04T23:48:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-04T23:33:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SheffieldSteel-2008-05-04T23:48:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-04T23:33:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Legitimus-2008-05-05T01:02:00.000Z-SheffieldSteel-2008-05-04T23:48:00.000Z"></span>The controversial subject matter must at the very least be abridged. While several of the studies in question are frequently trumpeted as running contrary to the idea of CSA, they in fact do not prove anything quite so sweeping. Rather, they merely pick a small technicalities of the commonly held model.<a href="/wiki/User:Legitimus" title="User:Legitimus">Legitimus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Legitimus" title="User talk:Legitimus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Legitimus-2008-05-05T01:02:00.000Z-SheffieldSteel-2008-05-04T23:48:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:02, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Legitimus-2008-05-05T01:02:00.000Z-SheffieldSteel-2008-05-04T23:48:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Legitimus-2008-05-05T01:02:00.000Z-SheffieldSteel-2008-05-04T23:48:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-ResearchEditor-2008-05-05T02:15:00.000Z-Legitimus-2008-05-05T01:02:00.000Z"></span>The controversy section is being given far too much weight in the article. The controversy itself is a tiny minority view at best. IMO, Rind should be given a sentence or two, but more condemning of Rind, since more papers and the media both condemned the study. <a href="/wiki/User:ResearchEditor" title="User:ResearchEditor">ResearchEditor</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ResearchEditor" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:ResearchEditor">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-ResearchEditor-2008-05-05T02:15:00.000Z-Legitimus-2008-05-05T01:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:15, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-ResearchEditor-2008-05-05T02:15:00.000Z-Legitimus-2008-05-05T01:02:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-ResearchEditor-2008-05-05T02:15:00.000Z-Legitimus-2008-05-05T01:02:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T03:32:00.000Z-ResearchEditor-2008-05-05T02:15:00.000Z"></span>The left-wing media (like <i>Reason</i>) largely accepted the study; most of the condemnation came from anti-intellectual wingnut rags like WorldNetDaily. <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F06E7DA1238F930A25755C0A96F958260">This neutral article</a> in the <i>New York Times</i> highlights the conservative nature of the attacks on Rind. Similarly, most of the papers published on Rind et al. (1998) analyze the hysteria and defend Rind and his team against the flawed claims of their critics (most of whom came from the "repressed memory" fringe). <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:AnotherSolipsist&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:AnotherSolipsist (page does not exist)">--AnotherSolipsist</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:AnotherSolipsist&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:AnotherSolipsist (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T03:32:00.000Z-ResearchEditor-2008-05-05T02:15:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T03:32:00.000Z-ResearchEditor-2008-05-05T02:15:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T03:32:00.000Z-ResearchEditor-2008-05-05T02:15:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-ResearchEditor-2008-05-06T03:31:00.000Z-ResearchEditor-2008-05-05T02:15:00.000Z"></span>Actually, the fringe is those that believe that repressed memory doesn't exist. A large majority of the studies on this topic show that it is a solid and valid scientific theory. Here's a few examples :</dd> <dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFWidom1996" class="citation journal cs1">Widom, Cathy Spatz (December 1996). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ542113&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=EJ542113">"Accuracy of adult recollections of childhood victimization : Part 1. Childhood physical abuse"</a>. <i>Psychological Assessment</i>. <b>8</b> (4). Washington, DC, US: American Psychological Association: 412–21. <a href="/wiki/ISSN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISSN (identifier)">ISSN</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://search.worldcat.org/issn/1040-3590">1040-3590</a>. EJ542113<span class="reference-accessdate">. Retrieved <span class="nowrap">2007-12-18</span></span>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=Psychological+Assessment&rft.atitle=Accuracy+of+adult+recollections+of+childhood+victimization+%3A+Part+1.+Childhood+physical+abuse&rft.volume=8&rft.issue=4&rft.pages=412-21&rft.date=1996-12&rft.issn=1040-3590&rft.aulast=Widom&rft.aufirst=Cathy+Spatz&rft_id=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eric.ed.gov%2FERICWebPortal%2Fcustom%2Fportlets%2FrecordDetails%2Fdetailmini.jsp%3F_nfpb%3Dtrue%26_%26ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0%3DEJ542113%26ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0%3Dno%26accno%3DEJ542113&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia%3AFringe+theories%2FNoticeboard%2FArchive+5" class="Z3988"></span> <span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment"><code class="cs1-code">{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_journal" title="Template:Cite journal">cite journal</a>}}</code>: </span><span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment">Unknown parameter <code class="cs1-code">|coauthors=</code> ignored (<code class="cs1-code">|author=</code> suggested) (<a href="/wiki/Help:CS1_errors#parameter_ignored_suggest" title="Help:CS1 errors">help</a>)</span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFWidom1997" class="citation journal cs1">Widom, Cathy Spatz (March 1997). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/Home.portal?_nfpb=true&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ545434&searchtype=keyword&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&_pageLabel=RecordDetails&objectId=0900019b801126a6&accno=EJ545434&_nfls=false">"Accuracy of Adult Recollections of Childhood Victimization: Part 2. Childhood Sexual Abuse"</a>. <i>Psychological Assessment</i>. <b>9</b> (1). Washington, DC, US: American Psychological Association: 34–46. <a href="/wiki/ISSN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISSN (identifier)">ISSN</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://search.worldcat.org/issn/1040-3590">1040-3590</a>. EJ545434<span class="reference-accessdate">. Retrieved <span class="nowrap">2007-12-18</span></span>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=Psychological+Assessment&rft.atitle=Accuracy+of+Adult+Recollections+of+Childhood+Victimization%3A+Part+2.+Childhood+Sexual+Abuse.&rft.volume=9&rft.issue=1&rft.pages=34-46&rft.date=1997-03&rft.issn=1040-3590&rft.aulast=Widom&rft.aufirst=Cathy+Spatz&rft_id=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eric.ed.gov%2FERICWebPortal%2FHome.portal%3F_nfpb%3Dtrue%26ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0%3DEJ545434%26searchtype%3Dkeyword%26ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0%3Dno%26_pageLabel%3DRecordDetails%26objectId%3D0900019b801126a6%26accno%3DEJ545434%26_nfls%3Dfalse&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia%3AFringe+theories%2FNoticeboard%2FArchive+5" class="Z3988"></span> <span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment"><code class="cs1-code">{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_journal" title="Template:Cite journal">cite journal</a>}}</code>: </span><span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment">Unknown parameter <code class="cs1-code">|coauthors=</code> ignored (<code class="cs1-code">|author=</code> suggested) (<a href="/wiki/Help:CS1_errors#parameter_ignored_suggest" title="Help:CS1 errors">help</a>)</span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFSheflin1996" class="citation journal cs1">Sheflin, Alan W (1996). "Repressed Memory or Dissociative Amnesia: What the Science Says". <i>Journal of Psychiatry & Law</i>. <b>24</b> (Summer): 143–88. <a href="/wiki/ISSN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISSN (identifier)">ISSN</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://search.worldcat.org/issn/0093-1853">0093-1853</a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=Journal+of+Psychiatry+%26+Law&rft.atitle=Repressed+Memory+or+Dissociative+Amnesia%3A+What+the+Science+Says.&rft.volume=24&rft.issue=Summer&rft.pages=143-88&rft.date=1996&rft.issn=0093-1853&rft.aulast=Sheflin&rft.aufirst=Alan+W&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia%3AFringe+theories%2FNoticeboard%2FArchive+5" class="Z3988"></span> <span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment"><code class="cs1-code">{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_journal" title="Template:Cite journal">cite journal</a>}}</code>: </span><span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment"><code class="cs1-code">|access-date=</code> requires <code class="cs1-code">|url=</code> (<a href="/wiki/Help:CS1_errors#accessdate_missing_url" title="Help:CS1 errors">help</a>)</span>; <span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment">Unknown parameter <code class="cs1-code">|coauthors=</code> ignored (<code class="cs1-code">|author=</code> suggested) (<a href="/wiki/Help:CS1_errors#parameter_ignored_suggest" title="Help:CS1 errors">help</a>)</span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFHerman1997" class="citation book cs1">Herman, Judith Lewis (1997). <i>Trauma and recovery: The aftermath of violence from domestic abuse to political terror</i>. Basic Books. pp. 119–122. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/0465087302" title="Special:BookSources/0465087302"><bdi>0465087302</bdi></a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Trauma+and+recovery%3A+The+aftermath+of+violence+from+domestic+abuse+to+political+terror&rft.pages=119-122&rft.pub=Basic+Books&rft.date=1997&rft.isbn=0465087302&rft.aulast=Herman&rft.aufirst=Judith+Lewis&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia%3AFringe+theories%2FNoticeboard%2FArchive+5" class="Z3988"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFAlbach" class="citation journal cs1 cs1-prop-long-vol">Albach, Francine (Dec-1996). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://hdl.handle.net/1794/1774">"Memory recovery of childhood sexual abuse"</a>. <i>Dissociation</i>. Vol. 9, No. 4, p. 261-273. <a href="/wiki/ISSN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISSN (identifier)">ISSN</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://search.worldcat.org/issn/0896-2863">0896-2863</a><span class="reference-accessdate">. Retrieved <span class="nowrap">2008-01-03</span></span>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=Dissociation&rft.atitle=Memory+recovery+of+childhood+sexual+abuse&rft.volume=Vol.+9%2C+No.+4%2C+p.+261-273&rft.issn=0896-2863&rft.aulast=Albach&rft.aufirst=Francine&rft_id=http%3A%2F%2Fhdl.handle.net%2F1794%2F1774&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia%3AFringe+theories%2FNoticeboard%2FArchive+5" class="Z3988"></span> <span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment"><code class="cs1-code">{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_journal" title="Template:Cite journal">cite journal</a>}}</code>: </span><span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment"><code class="cs1-code">|volume=</code> has extra text (<a href="/wiki/Help:CS1_errors#extra_text_volume" title="Help:CS1 errors">help</a>)</span>; <span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment">Check date values in: <code class="cs1-code">|date=</code> (<a href="/wiki/Help:CS1_errors#bad_date" title="Help:CS1 errors">help</a>)</span>; <span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment">Unknown parameter <code class="cs1-code">|coauthors=</code> ignored (<code class="cs1-code">|author=</code> suggested) (<a href="/wiki/Help:CS1_errors#parameter_ignored_suggest" title="Help:CS1 errors">help</a>)</span><a href="/wiki/User:ResearchEditor" title="User:ResearchEditor">ResearchEditor</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ResearchEditor" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:ResearchEditor">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-ResearchEditor-2008-05-06T03:31:00.000Z-ResearchEditor-2008-05-05T02:15:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:31, 6 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-ResearchEditor-2008-05-06T03:31:00.000Z-ResearchEditor-2008-05-05T02:15:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-ResearchEditor-2008-05-06T03:31:00.000Z-ResearchEditor-2008-05-05T02:15:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><br/> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T04:02:00.000Z-ResearchEditor-2008-05-06T03:31:00.000Z"></span>You're leaving out 1) the Rind study was condemned by Congress 2) three other meta-analyses came out at the same time and didn't concur with Rind 3) Rind et al published in a pro-pedophilia journal called Paidika 4) the conclusions of the study were that the effects of child sexual abuse are not "pervasive or long lasting," which isn't much of a big controversy anyway, because up to date research--already reflected in the article--notes that the prognosis for recovery is excellent 5) what was controversial about Rind wasn't so much his conclusions but his opinion that child sexual abuse should be called "adult-child sex" sometimes, if it happens between adults and teenaged boys who say they weren't harmed. 6) The Rind study has a whole article already, and is 7) described in detail in the <a href="/wiki/Pro-pedophile_activism" class="mw-redirect" title="Pro-pedophile activism">pro-pedophile activism</a> article. It's not really relevant to child sexual abuse in general, because it didn't shift or even affect the weight of scientific opinion, not even minutely; and because the controversy was cultural, not scientific. The ten year old Rind et al pro-pedophile push to legitimize sexual contacts between adults and adolescent boys has a place where it is relevant, and that's in the pro-pedophile activism article.-<a href="/wiki/User:PetraSchelm" title="User:PetraSchelm">PetraSchelm</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PetraSchelm" title="User talk:PetraSchelm">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T04:02:00.000Z-ResearchEditor-2008-05-06T03:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:02, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T04:02:00.000Z-ResearchEditor-2008-05-06T03:31:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T04:02:00.000Z-ResearchEditor-2008-05-06T03:31:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Eleland-2008-05-05T04:53:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T04:02:00.000Z"></span>Congressional condemnation means nothing in this context; imagine what our <a href="/wiki/Evolution" title="Evolution">evolution</a> / <a href="/wiki/Intelligent_design" title="Intelligent design">intelligent design</a> articles would look like if it did. Rind et al was in <i>Psychological Bulletin</i>, not <i>Paidika.</i> The section that was removed was <i>prima facie</i> NPOV and well-sourced; perhaps it needed to be augmented with equally NPOV and well-sourced criticism of those specific assertions, or to better contextualize them as controversial minority views. I do not see any grounds to remove it entirely. <<a href="/wiki/User:Eleland" title="User:Eleland"><b>el</b>eland</a>/<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Eleland" title="User talk:Eleland"><b>talk</b></a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Eleland" title="Special:Contributions/Eleland">edits</a>> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Eleland-2008-05-05T04:53:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T04:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:53, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Eleland-2008-05-05T04:53:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T04:02:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Eleland-2008-05-05T04:53:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T04:02:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T05:23:00.000Z-Eleland-2008-05-05T04:53:00.000Z"></span>I didn't say they published <i>it</i> in Paidika, I said they published <i>in</i> Paidika; the authors have a pro-pedophile bias. Fringe theories need not be mentioned at all, except perhaps in articles devoted to them, and in this case there's a whole article devoted to Rind elsewhere, in adddition to detailed coverage at the <a href="/wiki/Pro-pedophile_activism" class="mw-redirect" title="Pro-pedophile activism">pro-pedophile activism</a> article. The significance of "condemned by Congress" is in response to AnotherSolipsist's contention that "most of the condemnation came from... WorldNetDaily." (And mainstream science rejected it also.) The solution to a coatrack isn't to further expand it by adding rebuttals; it's to crop it. (We have two isssues here now: 1) the coatrack itself, for which there is consensus to crop significantly to include only Rind 2) whether Rind should even be included or not....)-<a href="/wiki/User:PetraSchelm" title="User:PetraSchelm">PetraSchelm</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PetraSchelm" title="User talk:PetraSchelm">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T05:23:00.000Z-Eleland-2008-05-05T04:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T05:23:00.000Z-Eleland-2008-05-05T04:53:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T05:23:00.000Z-Eleland-2008-05-05T04:53:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T14:55:00.000Z-Child_Sexual_Abuse"></span>I don't see any "coatracking" here so much as the attempt to over-emphasize the weight of a minority view. So some study interviewed minors on how they feel about being in a "relationship" with adults. The study was heavily criticized as pedophile activism masquerading as science. This is all perfectly on topic in the "child sexual abuse" article, we just need to take care not to allow the article to implicitly jump to conclusions (<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SYN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SYN">WP:SYN</a>), along the lines of "the <a href="/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome" title="Stockholm syndrome">Stockholm syndrome</a> says some people feel good about being held hostage. Hence, we conclude it is really ok to take hostages or kidnap people." Plus, there is a main article, <a href="/wiki/Rind_et_al._controversy" title="Rind et al. controversy">Rind et al. controversy</a>; details on that should go there. <a href="/wiki/Pro-pedophile_activism" class="mw-redirect" title="Pro-pedophile activism">pro-pedophile activism</a> should perhaps be considered a valid sub-article of <a href="/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse" title="Child sexual abuse">Child sexual abuse</a>, and the "controversial research" could be accommodated in that context. --<a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T14:55:00.000Z-Child_Sexual_Abuse" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T14:55:00.000Z-Child_Sexual_Abuse"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T14:55:00.000Z-Child_Sexual_Abuse"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T15:12:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T14:55:00.000Z"></span>The criticism of Sandfort's study mostly focuses on the <i>implications</i> of his findings. The actual data he collected can hardly be considered pseudoscientific: A few critics have pointed out that his sample was non-representative, but Sandfort didn't claim otherwise (in fact he subtitled the study <i>An Empirical Investigation Among a <b>Nonrepresentative</b> Group of Boys.</i>) I don't think there's any serious doubt among the CSA-erudite that a subset of sexual abuse victims regard their experience positively (whether as a coping mechanism or whatever), which is all our article says. The minority view that CSA should be legalized was, if I'm not mistaken, represented nowhere in the section deleted. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:AnotherSolipsist&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:AnotherSolipsist (page does not exist)">--AnotherSolipsist</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:AnotherSolipsist&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:AnotherSolipsist (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T15:12:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T14:55:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:12, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T15:12:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T14:55:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T15:12:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T14:55:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T15:19:00.000Z-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T15:12:00.000Z"></span>It's a 30+ year old study with a <i>sample size of 25</i> that consisted entirely of subjects recruited from the Dutch National Pedophile Workshop--it's ludicrously irrelevant to anything except the pro-pedophile activism article.-<a href="/wiki/User:PetraSchelm" title="User:PetraSchelm">PetraSchelm</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PetraSchelm" title="User talk:PetraSchelm">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T15:19:00.000Z-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T15:12:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:19, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T15:19:00.000Z-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T15:12:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T15:19:00.000Z-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T15:12:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T15:58:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T15:19:00.000Z"></span>I have to agree with Petra -- if you take away the controversy surrounding the "implications", what is left is staggeringly unremarkable. This will either be <i>about</i> the "activism" controversy or nothing at all. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T15:58:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T15:19:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:58, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T15:58:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T15:19:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T15:58:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T15:19:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T16:02:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T15:19:00.000Z"></span>Sandfort is notable for a number of reasons. 1. The sample. The convenience sample uses men who have no particular mental health record, and actually believe that they are doing the boys good. There is no clinical or legal element. The sample is unique and valuable, representing a liberal climate that may not exist in any other developed country for decades to come. 2. The intimacy between interviewer and interviewee. Again, unique and naturalistic. Boys, it appears were encouraged to be themselves during the interviews. The interviews were carried out in familiar territory (the men's homes), in neutral terms and the men were not present. The level of detail that the interviews went into more than offsets the small sample size - a method probably more suited to your "soft science" conception of psychology. 3. The conclusions. Is it not fascinating that the conclusions were so wildly unlike those of other studies? Could this have something to do with the methodology? This should be up for discussion in an article that goes beyond the "one true" narrative of CSA, and actually represents the diversity of opinion in this subject with some fairness. <span style="font:bold 11px Arial;display:inline;border:#151B8D 1px solid;background-color:#ADDFFF;padding:0 4px 0 4px;"><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Jovin_Lambton&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Jovin Lambton (page does not exist)">Lambton</a></span> <sup><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jovin_Lambton&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Jovin Lambton (page does not exist)">T</a></sup>/<sub><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jovin_Lambton" title="Special:Contributions/Jovin Lambton">C</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T16:02:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T15:19:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:02, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T16:02:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T15:19:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T16:02:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T15:19:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T16:09:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T16:02:00.000Z"></span>Sandfort alone may not be particularly significant, but studies using representative samples have shown that a large portion of abuse survivors hold or held their abuse in a positive light. In Rind et al., 42% of the 118 men included in the sample and 16% of the 514 women maintained overall positive feelings for their abuse. That's a lot of people to make unpersons. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:AnotherSolipsist&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:AnotherSolipsist (page does not exist)">--AnotherSolipsist</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:AnotherSolipsist&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:AnotherSolipsist (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T16:09:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T16:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:09, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T16:09:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T16:02:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T16:09:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T16:02:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T16:24:00.000Z-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T16:09:00.000Z"></span>And yet no one else before or since has ever replicated these findings, which why Rind triggers WP:REDFLAG, and the confirmation bias inherent in a pro-pedophilia advocate conducting a study is relevant. Again, Rind has its own article, and is recounted in detail in the pro-pedophile activism article.-<a href="/wiki/User:PetraSchelm" title="User:PetraSchelm">PetraSchelm</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PetraSchelm" title="User talk:PetraSchelm">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T16:24:00.000Z-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T16:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T16:24:00.000Z-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T16:09:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T16:24:00.000Z-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T16:09:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T16:33:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T16:24:00.000Z"></span>Pet: You have a very poor understanding of the subject, and indeed the profile of Bruce Rind and his works. Rind et al was a meta analysis conducted for the APA. That means that it was a high profile report that depended on many studies that produced similar findings *before* it was published. There have also been critical surveys and case studies of CSA victims that were not included in Rind, but are referred to by other authors and critics. Your accusations of Pro-Pedophile activism are very similar to those made by the Far-Right homophobe, Reisman, in nonsensical rants about the gay agenda and recruitment of children. Even Dallam - an incredibly biased and value-laden counter to Rind did not go as far as you have. <span style="font:bold 11px Arial;display:inline;border:#151B8D 1px solid;background-color:#ADDFFF;padding:0 4px 0 4px;"><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Jovin_Lambton&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Jovin Lambton (page does not exist)">Lambton</a></span> <sup><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jovin_Lambton&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Jovin Lambton (page does not exist)">T</a></sup>/<sub><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jovin_Lambton" title="Special:Contributions/Jovin Lambton">C</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T16:33:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T16:24:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T16:33:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T16:24:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T16:33:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T16:24:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T16:48:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T16:33:00.000Z"></span>Comment on content, not contributors. (Although it's interesting, I suppose, that you would align someone who chose their username from the far left and edits critical theory articles with the far right...). Again, three other meta-analyses came out at the same time and did not concur with Rind, and no meta-analysis published since has concurred with Rind either. His overall conclusion was that there <i>is</i> harm (not controversial); what was controversial was his opinion that the term "adult child sex" should be used in cases where an adolescent boy and an adult man have sex and the boy doesn't believe he was harmed. The use of this "value neutral term" is a noted goal of pro-pedophile advocates, per Mary de Young's analysis of pro-pedophile activism, which is described in detail in the pro-pedophile activism article. The signifigance of the decade-old Rind et al study is to the history of pro-pedophile activism.-<a href="/wiki/User:PetraSchelm" title="User:PetraSchelm">PetraSchelm</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PetraSchelm" title="User talk:PetraSchelm">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T16:48:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T16:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:48, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T16:48:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T16:33:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T16:48:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T16:33:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T17:10:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T16:48:00.000Z"></span>His opinion that some adult-child sex should not be termed child sexual abuse isn't what was in the article. If the rest was uncontroversial, why do you object to its inclusion as "fringe?"</dd> <dd>The other meta-analyses didn't concur with Rind et al. (1998) on the issue of self-reported reactions because <i>they didn't study or comment on that</i>. Another red herring... <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:AnotherSolipsist&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:AnotherSolipsist (page does not exist)">--AnotherSolipsist</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:AnotherSolipsist&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:AnotherSolipsist (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T17:10:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T16:48:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T17:10:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T16:48:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T17:10:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T16:48:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T17:25:00.000Z-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T17:10:00.000Z"></span>It doesn't need to be included on a scientific basis because it doesn't add anything to the article; the conclusions are already represented via the most up to date research. Why do you want to include it? We haven't included the other three meta-analyses either. We're trying to represent the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WEIGHT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:WEIGHT">WP:WEIGHT</a> so that the article is up to date, informative, and readable. Self-reported reactions are of low evidentiary value; that's why no one studies or comments on them in a meta-analysis (unless they're trying to confirm a confirmation bias, which is what Dallam and Congress pointed out Rind was doing...) Rind's <i>opinion</i> re "adult-child sex' caused a cultural controversy ten years ago, and there's an article exlaining the controversy, and it's included as well, in detail, in the pro-pedophile activism article. Like Sandfort, it's a very important study--to pro-pedophile advocates. To everyone else, it's an irrelevant fringe theory. (And the fringe basis is cultural, not scientific. Sandfort and Rind have zero relevance to the weight of scientific opinion; they're cultural curiosities.)-<a href="/wiki/User:PetraSchelm" title="User:PetraSchelm">PetraSchelm</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PetraSchelm" title="User talk:PetraSchelm">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T17:25:00.000Z-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T17:10:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:25, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T17:25:00.000Z-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T17:10:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T17:25:00.000Z-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T17:10:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T15:58:00.000Z-Child_Sexual_Abuse"></span>←<a href="/wiki/User:PetraSchelm" title="User:PetraSchelm">PetraSchelm</a> is correct, and <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> also stated it very well at 14:55 and 15:58, 5 May 2008 (UTC). The study was widely debunked and criticized by science and widely quoted by pedophile activists. In the CSA article, a short paragraph about pedophile activisim and the use of Rind et al and maybe Sandfort by activists would be appropriate, with links to the relevant articles. It needs to be done carefully without SYN. There is no controversy about this in scientific research today to report, and to include information in the article that implies there is, would be <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:UNDUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:UNDUE">undue weight</a> for a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:FRINGE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:FRINGE">fringe theory</a>, from the smallest of fringes. --<a href="/wiki/User:Jack-A-Roe" title="User:Jack-A-Roe">Jack-A-Roe</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jack-A-Roe" title="User talk:Jack-A-Roe">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T15:58:00.000Z-Child_Sexual_Abuse" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T15:58:00.000Z-Child_Sexual_Abuse"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T15:58:00.000Z-Child_Sexual_Abuse"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T17:48:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T15:58:00.000Z"></span>Support for Rind was not fringe. If you can provide some academic articles against Rind, I will provide some for (or neutral). We will discover that the debate was wide open. <span style="font:bold 11px Arial;display:inline;border:#151B8D 1px solid;background-color:#ADDFFF;padding:0 4px 0 4px;"><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Jovin_Lambton&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Jovin Lambton (page does not exist)">Lambton</a></span> <sup><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jovin_Lambton&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Jovin Lambton (page does not exist)">T</a></sup>/<sub><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jovin_Lambton" title="Special:Contributions/Jovin Lambton">C</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T17:48:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T15:58:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:48, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T17:48:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T15:58:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T17:48:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T15:58:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T18:00:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T17:48:00.000Z"></span>The <i>significance</i> of Rind is to the fringe of the fringe; no one else really cares. The cultural controversy, which is a decade old, has its own article. It's like the Dutch pedophile party that only had three members. It had shock value, so the press commented on it/it was a big news story for fifteen minutes. Then it faded to total obscurity except for on pro-pedophile websites, where it is enshrined as gospel and blown out of proportion eight ways to Sunday in the style of fringe websites everywhere. Wikipedia articles are not supposed to give an erroneous impression of notability. Rind is notable to the history of pro-pedophile activism, not to the study of child sexual abuse.-<a href="/wiki/User:PetraSchelm" title="User:PetraSchelm">PetraSchelm</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PetraSchelm" title="User talk:PetraSchelm">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T18:00:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T17:48:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:00, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T18:00:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T17:48:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T18:00:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T17:48:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T18:38:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T17:48:00.000Z"></span>Parts of Rind et al. (1998) are fairly unique, actually, and it continues to be cited in the literature. <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=14387367907543571569">Google Scholar</a> turns up 364 papers citing it. That's almost half the number of hits that the most notable study on CSA (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://scholar.google.com/scholar?&cites=11276338607048386213">Kendall-Tackett et al.</a>) has, despite the 5-year advantage of Kendall-Tackett. Some citations of Rind in peer-reviewed journals (and one Ph.D dissertation) from 2008: <ul><li>A Ph.D dissertation: "A 1998 meta-analytic study examined the relationship between CSA and ED and found a statistically significant, but small, relationship (r = .06) among the sample of college students without a clinical diagnosis of eating disorders (Rind, Tromovitch, & Bauserman, 1998)."<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/ETD/image/etd1903.pdf">[34]</a></li> <li><i>The British Journal of Psychiatry</i>: "In addition, meta-analytic data indicate that the association between childhood sexual abuse and psychopathological symptoms tends to be larger for more severe forms of abuse."<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/192/3/166">[35]</a></li> <li><i>Psychiatry Research:</i> "For example, 17% of college students report childhood sexual abuse in the form of sexual intercourse (Rind et al., 1998)."<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0165178106004021">[36]</a></li> <li><i>Sexual and Relationship Therapy</i>: "They found, in a meta-analysis of 59 studies of over 15,000 college students, that the relation between self-reported CSA and psychopathology was weak and even weaker when CSA was considered to be consensual, particularly for males. They also reported that 11% of women and 37% of men indicated that their short-term reaction to the CSA was positive. Rind and Tromovitch (1997) similarly reported that only a small proportion of individuals with CSA experiences are permanently harmed in their meta-analytic review of seven national samples of psychological correlates of CSA. They concluded that while psychological adjustment measures suggest that CSA is related to poorer adjustment in the general population, confounding variables prevent attributing causal effects of CSA. [goes on]"<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a791865887~db=all">[37]</a></li> <li><i>American Journal of Public Health</i>: "Very little is actually known about the long-term risks and benefits of abstinence intentions, virginity pledges, or early or late initiation in the context of consensual sexual experiences; however, numerous studies have documented long-term adverse outcomes of sexual abuse, including sexual risk behaviors. [Rind cited among others]"<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.ajph.org/cgi/content/full/98/1/155">[38]</a></li> <li><i>Journal of Sex & Marital Therapy</i>: "Rind, Tromovitch, and Bauserman (1998) found in a meta analysis of 59 studies comprising 15,000 college students that relations between a self-reported history of CSA and psychopathology was low, and it was lower in magnitude when the respondent deemed CSA to be consensual, but only in men. Some 11% of female and 37% of male respondents reported their short-term reaction to the abuse as being positive."<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a792034132~db=all">[39]</a></li> <li><i>Psychological Medicine</i>: "[Cites Rind several times, then...] Rind et al. (1998) examined the relationship between CSA and psychological adjustment outcomes (e.g. alcohol problems, interpersonal sensitivity) in samples recruited from college and university student populations. Effect sizes were computed for the association between CSA and psychological outcomes, and for the magnitude of the relationship between several moderating variables (e.g. gender, level of contact) and psychological outcomes. Significant interactions were found between gender and two moderating aspects of the CSA experience, namely level of contact (i.e. psychological outcomes were significantly stronger for males than females when CSA was unwanted) and timing of reaction (i.e. negative reactions to CSA were significantly greater for females than males across each category of reaction timing that was measured: immediate, current, and lasting)."<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=1826084">[40]</a></li></ul></dd></dl></dd> <dd>So there. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:AnotherSolipsist&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:AnotherSolipsist (page does not exist)">--AnotherSolipsist</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:AnotherSolipsist&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:AnotherSolipsist (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T18:38:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T17:48:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:38, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T18:38:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T17:48:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T18:38:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T17:48:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T19:21:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T15:58:00.000Z"></span>You're just proving my point that the part of Rind that is not controversial is <i>already</i> reflected in the article; the most up to date research. It's already common knowledge that more severe forms of abuse=more severe harm, etc., and it's not necessary to cite Rind (or any individual paper) to state that in the article. No one asserts that anyone is "permanently harmed" (except for the brain damage research from Harvard, which we haven't included in the article...). Using Rind to state the obvious Trojan Horses in his <i>controversial</i> claim of "adult child sex" on the basis of dubious self-reports of dubious short term positive reaction for a dubious percentage of males only, that no one else replicates or agrees with; <i>that</i> is the glory of all the PPA fringe websites.-<a href="/wiki/User:PetraSchelm" title="User:PetraSchelm">PetraSchelm</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PetraSchelm" title="User talk:PetraSchelm">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T19:21:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T15:58:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:21, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T19:21:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T15:58:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T19:21:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T15:58:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T19:43:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T19:21:00.000Z"></span>Information on positive reactions to CSA is not reflected in the article. Two of 2008 papers I quoted above describe Rind's findings on this. --<b><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:AnotherSolipsist&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:AnotherSolipsist (page does not exist)">AnotherSolipsist</a></b> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:AnotherSolipsist&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:AnotherSolipsist (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T19:43:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T19:21:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:43, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T19:43:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T19:21:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T19:43:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T19:21:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></li></ul> <ul><li><ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T20:24:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T19:21:00.000Z"></span>Uh, then what is this: "In 1998, Bruce Rind, PhD argued in his study known as Rind et al. that not all cases of "adult-child sex" should be termed child sexual abuse. This study was condemned by the United States Congress, an event which marked the first time in U.S. history that Congress officially condemned a study published in a major scientific journal.[14] Rind's study was a meta-analysis of 15 studies using college students that found that boys reacted positively in 37% of the cases, while girls reacted positively in 11% of the cases.[15] The methodology and conclusions drawn by this study has been criticized by many researchers[16], including Dallam et al., who stated "After a careful examination of the evidence, it is concluded that Rind et al. can best be described as an advocacy article that inappropriately uses science in an attempt to legitimize its findings." (2002).[17] The study has also received some support for its scientific validity, though not necessarily its conclusions.[18]"-<a href="/wiki/User:PetraSchelm" title="User:PetraSchelm">PetraSchelm</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PetraSchelm" title="User talk:PetraSchelm">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T20:24:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T19:21:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T20:24:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T19:21:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T20:24:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T19:21:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></li></ul> <p><br/> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T17:54:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T15:58:00.000Z"></span>As I've already said, the weight of scientific commentary on Rind et al. (1998) is positive. The <i>American Psychologist</i> special issue on Rind (vol. 57, issue 3) illustrates this.That which isn't positive was largely produced by the Leadership Council, a group of "repressed memory" apologists. (Interestingly, <a href="/wiki/User:Jack-A-Roe" title="User:Jack-A-Roe">User:Jack-A-Roe</a> and <a href="/wiki/User:ResearchEditor" title="User:ResearchEditor">User:ResearchEditor</a> have both been heavily involved in promoting their unusual brand of neutrality at <a href="/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse" class="mw-redirect" title="Satanic ritual abuse">Satanic ritual abuse</a> and the repressed memory articles.) <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:AnotherSolipsist&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:AnotherSolipsist (page does not exist)">--AnotherSolipsist</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:AnotherSolipsist&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:AnotherSolipsist (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T17:54:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T15:58:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:54, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T17:54:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T15:58:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T17:54:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T15:58:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-ResearchEditor-2008-05-06T03:31:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T15:58:00.000Z"></span>The Leadership Council is a "nonprofit independent scientific organization composed of respected scientists, clinicians, educators, legal scholars, and public policy analysts." Their advisory board includes approximately 50 respected scientists who have written approximately 80 books. The attempts made by certain editors at the SRA and repressed memory articles have been to provide as many reliable sources as possible, presented in a NPOV fashion. <a href="/wiki/User:ResearchEditor" title="User:ResearchEditor">ResearchEditor</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ResearchEditor" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:ResearchEditor">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-ResearchEditor-2008-05-06T03:31:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T15:58:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:31, 6 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-ResearchEditor-2008-05-06T03:31:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T15:58:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-ResearchEditor-2008-05-06T03:31:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-05T15:58:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T18:16:00.000Z-ResearchEditor-2008-05-06T03:31:00.000Z"></span>Um, yeah. Like this edit by Jack, for example, where he quotes Ken Lanning stating that "satanic ritual abuse victims report things that are <i>physically impossible</i>": <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Satanic_ritual_abuse&diff=209170366&oldid=209169863">[41]</a>. I won't mention the presence here of the editor who voted very oddly in the adult child sex AfD. It would be nice to hear more outside views, though, instead of more of the same from the two fringe editors at child sexual abuse, and any adult-child sex AfD voters they can scare up. I think we've made the pro/con case from the involved editors' perspectives, and it's time to wait for actual new/wider input (on a problem that has dragged on for <i>years</i> at this article).-<a href="/wiki/User:PetraSchelm" title="User:PetraSchelm">PetraSchelm</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PetraSchelm" title="User talk:PetraSchelm">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T18:16:00.000Z-ResearchEditor-2008-05-06T03:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:16, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T18:16:00.000Z-ResearchEditor-2008-05-06T03:31:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T18:16:00.000Z-ResearchEditor-2008-05-06T03:31:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T18:46:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T18:16:00.000Z"></span>In that edit, Jack paraphrases a pre-existing quote that said "some of what victims allege in these cases is physically impossible" to say "he considers some of what the victims alleged to be either untrue or physically impossible." <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:AnotherSolipsist&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:AnotherSolipsist (page does not exist)">--AnotherSolipsist</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:AnotherSolipsist&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:AnotherSolipsist (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T18:46:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T18:16:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:46, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T18:46:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T18:16:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-05T18:46:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T18:16:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=rind+et+al&btnG=Google+Search&meta="><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T18:06:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T18:16:00.000Z"></span>http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=rind+et+al&btnG=Google+Search&meta=</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Google, and just about every other SE disagrees, with you, Petra. <span style="font:bold 11px Arial;display:inline;border:#151B8D 1px solid;background-color:#ADDFFF;padding:0 4px 0 4px;"><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Jovin_Lambton&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Jovin Lambton (page does not exist)">Lambton</a></span> <sup><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jovin_Lambton&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Jovin Lambton (page does not exist)">T</a></sup>/<sub><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jovin_Lambton" title="Special:Contributions/Jovin Lambton">C</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T18:06:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T18:16:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:06, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T18:06:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T18:16:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T18:06:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T18:16:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T19:23:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T18:06:00.000Z"></span>In fact, by returning one result (on volcanoes), and excluding all results containing the words "child" and "sex" "Yahoo Kids" provides no consensus. Maybe you should back down a little and argue from Yahoo Kids. <span style="font:bold 11px Arial;display:inline;border:#151B8D 1px solid;background-color:#ADDFFF;padding:0 4px 0 4px;"><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Jovin_Lambton&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Jovin Lambton (page does not exist)">Lambton</a></span> <sup><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jovin_Lambton&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Jovin Lambton (page does not exist)">T</a></sup>/<sub><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jovin_Lambton" title="Special:Contributions/Jovin Lambton">C</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T19:23:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T18:06:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T19:23:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T18:06:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T19:23:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T18:06:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T18:29:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T18:16:00.000Z"></span>There is a pattern, though. A hard-core of editors who dedicate themselves to presenting any topic involving children and sexuality in the most bizarrely condemnatory light. It can best be described an abandonment of neutrality and adoption of a public-consensus POV that leads to a cherry-picking of the most fearsome, medical-only literature on these topics. These conclusions are then treated as fact, in articles that come accross as thoroughly harsh on these topics, far harsher than most established psychological, sociological and critical articles on the subject. <span style="font:bold 11px Arial;display:inline;border:#151B8D 1px solid;background-color:#ADDFFF;padding:0 4px 0 4px;"><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Jovin_Lambton&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Jovin Lambton (page does not exist)">Lambton</a></span> <sup><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jovin_Lambton&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Jovin Lambton (page does not exist)">T</a></sup>/<sub><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jovin_Lambton" title="Special:Contributions/Jovin Lambton">C</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T18:29:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T18:16:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:29, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T18:29:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T18:16:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T18:29:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T18:16:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SheffieldSteel-2008-05-05T18:36:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T18:29:00.000Z"></span>...and that's because everyone thinks it's so fucked up. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:UNDUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:UNDUE">WP:UNDUE</a> is not an abandonment of neutrality. <a href="/wiki/User:SheffieldSteel" title="User:SheffieldSteel"><span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span></a><sup><small><b><a href="/wiki/User_talk:SheffieldSteel" title="User talk:SheffieldSteel">TALK</a></b></small></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-SheffieldSteel-2008-05-05T18:36:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T18:29:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:36, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SheffieldSteel-2008-05-05T18:36:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T18:29:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SheffieldSteel-2008-05-05T18:36:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T18:29:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T19:17:00.000Z-SheffieldSteel-2008-05-05T18:36:00.000Z"></span>"Everyone" is not the consensus of academics and specialists who actually know something about the subject. Noting the public consensus is all fine and well, but it requires no more than a few lines, and should play no part in weighting and determining assumed facts in the rest of the article, which deals with professional, qualified opinions. <span style="font:bold 11px Arial;display:inline;border:#151B8D 1px solid;background-color:#ADDFFF;padding:0 4px 0 4px;"><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Jovin_Lambton&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Jovin Lambton (page does not exist)">Lambton</a></span> <sup><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jovin_Lambton&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Jovin Lambton (page does not exist)">T</a></sup>/<sub><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jovin_Lambton" title="Special:Contributions/Jovin Lambton">C</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T19:17:00.000Z-SheffieldSteel-2008-05-05T18:36:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:17, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T19:17:00.000Z-SheffieldSteel-2008-05-05T18:36:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T19:17:00.000Z-SheffieldSteel-2008-05-05T18:36:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T19:33:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T19:17:00.000Z"></span>The scientific consensus is also that it's fucked up.-<a href="/wiki/User:PetraSchelm" title="User:PetraSchelm">PetraSchelm</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PetraSchelm" title="User talk:PetraSchelm">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T19:33:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T19:17:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T19:33:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T19:17:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T19:33:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T19:17:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T19:43:00.000Z-SheffieldSteel-2008-05-05T18:36:00.000Z"></span>That's not science, Petra. There is a reasonable consensus of near-universal harm, and even of unethical or risky practise (E.g. Finkelhor, who concedes that some instances are seen as positive). I know of no "scientific" consensus that equates to "fucked up" - an almost irrelevant opinion that one is likely to find amongst the "great unwashed" and in their holy books (which come in instalments of 365 a year). <span style="font:bold 11px Arial;display:inline;border:#151B8D 1px solid;background-color:#ADDFFF;padding:0 4px 0 4px;"><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Jovin_Lambton&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Jovin Lambton (page does not exist)">Lambton</a></span> <sup><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jovin_Lambton&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Jovin Lambton (page does not exist)">T</a></sup>/<sub><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jovin_Lambton" title="Special:Contributions/Jovin Lambton">C</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T19:43:00.000Z-SheffieldSteel-2008-05-05T18:36:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:43, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T19:43:00.000Z-SheffieldSteel-2008-05-05T18:36:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T19:43:00.000Z-SheffieldSteel-2008-05-05T18:36:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T19:58:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T19:43:00.000Z"></span>Even Rind concedes it is fucked up (he merely wants to call a small percentage of <i>adolescent</i> males who self-report--only in the short term --that their experience was "positive" people who have experienced "adult-child sex." Since short term self reports are considered highly dubious, his proposed exception has not been adopted by the scientific community. In fact, it was overwhelmingly shot down. Also, his opinion on terminology is an opinion of terminology, not a scientific observation...)-<a href="/wiki/User:PetraSchelm" title="User:PetraSchelm">PetraSchelm</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PetraSchelm" title="User talk:PetraSchelm">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T19:58:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T19:43:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:58, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T19:58:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T19:43:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T19:58:00.000Z-Jovin_Lambton-2008-05-05T19:43:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Eleland-2008-05-05T22:37:00.000Z-Child_Sexual_Abuse"></span>(outdent) This may be a silly question — I'm not sure — but how much research really looks into the <i>causal</i> relationships between child sexual abuse and future life problems? I know the <i>correlation</i> is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. I've just heard, admittedly in nonscholarly sources, the suggestion that the <i>reaction</i> to CSA and the social stigma is at least as damaging as the CSA itself. Is there any solid research on this question? <<a href="/wiki/User:Eleland" title="User:Eleland"><b>el</b>eland</a>/<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Eleland" title="User talk:Eleland"><b>talk</b></a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Eleland" title="Special:Contributions/Eleland">edits</a>> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Eleland-2008-05-05T22:37:00.000Z-Child_Sexual_Abuse" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Eleland-2008-05-05T22:37:00.000Z-Child_Sexual_Abuse"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Eleland-2008-05-05T22:37:00.000Z-Child_Sexual_Abuse"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T22:57:00.000Z-Eleland-2008-05-05T22:37:00.000Z"></span>Here are eleland's comments from the adult-child sex AfD:</dd></dl> <ul><li>"Hold your nose and Keep because, face it, logically Child sexual</li> <li>abuse would be the POV fork here. "Adult-child sex" is a neutral</li> <li>title; it's not like the article is called Man-boy love. Not all</li> <li>notable POV's (maybe not even a majority?) agree that sex between</li> <li>minors and adults is inherently sexual abuse in all circumstances.</li> <li>Merging this information to Child sexual abuse would be inherently</li> <li>POV. <eleland/talkedits> 00:28, 18 October 2007 (UTC)"</li> <li>Seriously, thanks for sharing, but we'd really like to get some neutral outside input.-<a href="/wiki/User:PetraSchelm" title="User:PetraSchelm">PetraSchelm</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PetraSchelm" title="User talk:PetraSchelm">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T22:57:00.000Z-Eleland-2008-05-05T22:37:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T22:57:00.000Z-Eleland-2008-05-05T22:37:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T22:57:00.000Z-Eleland-2008-05-05T22:37:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Eleland-2008-05-05T23:09:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T22:57:00.000Z"></span>Comments which I stand by, and which are both reasonable and entirely irrelevant. Attempting to paint all those who distance themselves from your moral crusade as paedophile apologists hardly engenders confidence in your position. Now, are you capable of answering my question, or would you rather amuse yourself with <i>ad hominem</i>s and well-poisoning? <<a href="/wiki/User:Eleland" title="User:Eleland"><b>el</b>eland</a>/<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Eleland" title="User talk:Eleland"><b>talk</b></a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Eleland" title="Special:Contributions/Eleland">edits</a>> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Eleland-2008-05-05T23:09:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T22:57:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:09, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Eleland-2008-05-05T23:09:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T22:57:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Eleland-2008-05-05T23:09:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T22:57:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Eleland-2008-05-05T23:12:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T22:57:00.000Z"></span>By the way, whose sock puppet are you? A month and a half on WP and you're quoting contributions I made last fall? Please. <<a href="/wiki/User:Eleland" title="User:Eleland"><b>el</b>eland</a>/<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Eleland" title="User talk:Eleland"><b>talk</b></a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Eleland" title="Special:Contributions/Eleland">edits</a>> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Eleland-2008-05-05T23:12:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T22:57:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:12, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Eleland-2008-05-05T23:12:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T22:57:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Eleland-2008-05-05T23:12:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T22:57:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T23:46:00.000Z-Eleland-2008-05-05T23:12:00.000Z"></span>Nice. You did notice, right, that this is the <i>fringe theories</i> noticeboard? If your opinion is that "maybe not even a majority of povs" agree that sexual abuse of children is harmful, you're unclear on the concept that the overwhelming majority opinion is that it <i>is</i> harmful, and what we're discussing here is how much weight to give the extreme fringe view that there are exceptions to that, according to two pedophile advocates (Rind and Sandfort). It would really be great to get some more neutral outside input (say, not from the minority of ediotrs who voted keep on the now deleted adult-child sex article)--that's the point of posting on a noticeboard.-<a href="/wiki/User:PetraSchelm" title="User:PetraSchelm">PetraSchelm</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PetraSchelm" title="User talk:PetraSchelm">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T23:46:00.000Z-Eleland-2008-05-05T23:12:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:46, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T23:46:00.000Z-Eleland-2008-05-05T23:12:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T23:46:00.000Z-Eleland-2008-05-05T23:12:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Eleland-2008-05-06T04:01:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T23:46:00.000Z"></span>If my opinion was that "maybe not even a majority of povs agree that sexual abuse of children is harmful," I would have said so, rather than saying "maybe not even a majority of povs agree that sex between minors and adults is inherently sexual abuse in all circumstances," which is what I actually said. You're exaggerating everything I say into a strawman in order to avoid responding to my substantial questions and comments. Casually asserting that Bruce Rind is a "pedophile advocate" is more in this same vein. I don't appreciate off-wiki activist agendas being imported here, whether pro- or anti-, and again, I'd really like to know whose sock puppet you are, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/PetraSchelm" title="Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/PetraSchelm">as would others</a>. <<a href="/wiki/User:Eleland" title="User:Eleland"><b>el</b>eland</a>/<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Eleland" title="User talk:Eleland"><b>talk</b></a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Eleland" title="Special:Contributions/Eleland">edits</a>> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Eleland-2008-05-06T04:01:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T23:46:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Eleland-2008-05-06T04:01:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T23:46:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Eleland-2008-05-06T04:01:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-05T23:46:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-06T04:26:00.000Z-Eleland-2008-05-06T04:01:00.000Z"></span>There <i>was</i> a sockpuppet disrupting here today, and it was blocked. Meanwhile, are you suffering from <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:IDIDNTHEARTHAT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:IDIDNTHEARTHAT">WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT</a>? Would you like me to repeat it for you? Here: <i>You did notice, right, that this is the </i>fringe theories<i> noticeboard?...and what we're discussing here is how much weight to give the extreme fringe view that there are exceptions to that, according to two pedophile advocates (Rind and Sandfort). It would really be great to get some more neutral outside input (say, not from the minority of editors who voted keep on the now deleted adult-child sex article)--that's the point of posting on a noticeboard.</i> Thanks for understanding,-<a href="/wiki/User:PetraSchelm" title="User:PetraSchelm">PetraSchelm</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PetraSchelm" title="User talk:PetraSchelm">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-06T04:26:00.000Z-Eleland-2008-05-06T04:01:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-06T04:26:00.000Z-Eleland-2008-05-06T04:01:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-06T04:26:00.000Z-Eleland-2008-05-06T04:01:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Eleland-2008-05-06T04:43:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-06T04:26:00.000Z"></span>This is quite pathetic, and I'm not sure I have the stomach for it. You're <i>defining</i> those who disagree with you as non-neutral, and you're <i>defining</i> published peer-reviewed scientific research which you don't like as pedophile advocacy. Petra, I've been active on the FTN for longer than you've had an account, and my main interests here are pseudoscience and nationalist historiography. I don't really care whether your veiled implications are a cynical tactic or you really believe that I'm an apologist for child-fucking; either way you haven't made a single substantive on-point contribution to this sub-thread, and you've left my original question 100% unanswered. <<a href="/wiki/User:Eleland" title="User:Eleland"><b>el</b>eland</a>/<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Eleland" title="User talk:Eleland"><b>talk</b></a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Eleland" title="Special:Contributions/Eleland">edits</a>> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Eleland-2008-05-06T04:43:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-06T04:26:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:43, 6 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Eleland-2008-05-06T04:43:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-06T04:26:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Eleland-2008-05-06T04:43:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-06T04:26:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Eleland-2008-05-06T04:43:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-06T04:26:00.000Z-1"></span>Oh, and let me throw in a <a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:INSULTING_PITHY_AND_IRRELEVANT_POLICY_LINK&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Wikipedia:INSULTING PITHY AND IRRELEVANT POLICY LINK (page does not exist)">WP:INSULTING_PITHY_AND_IRRELEVANT_POLICY_LINK</a>, because this seems to be the way we discuss things on WP now. How about <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WTF%3F_OMG!_TMD_TLA._ARG!" title="Wikipedia:WTF? OMG! TMD TLA. ARG!">WP:WTF? OMG! TMD TLA. ARG!</a>, that's always a good'un. <<a href="/wiki/User:Eleland" title="User:Eleland"><b>el</b>eland</a>/<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Eleland" title="User talk:Eleland"><b>talk</b></a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Eleland" title="Special:Contributions/Eleland">edits</a>> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Eleland-2008-05-06T04:43:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-06T04:26:00.000Z-1" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:43, 6 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Eleland-2008-05-06T04:43:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-06T04:26:00.000Z-1"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Eleland-2008-05-06T04:43:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-06T04:26:00.000Z-1"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-06T04:53:00.000Z-Eleland-2008-05-06T04:43:00.000Z"></span>How constructive. And I'm so glad you're helping the "solicit wider opinions and input by posting on a noticeboard" process--I think it will really improve the article if people are terrified to comment here because they think they'll be dragged back into the adult-child sex AfD nightmare.-<a href="/wiki/User:PetraSchelm" title="User:PetraSchelm">PetraSchelm</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PetraSchelm" title="User talk:PetraSchelm">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-06T04:53:00.000Z-Eleland-2008-05-06T04:43:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:53, 6 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-06T04:53:00.000Z-Eleland-2008-05-06T04:43:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-06T04:53:00.000Z-Eleland-2008-05-06T04:43:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-06T07:39:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-06T04:53:00.000Z"></span>ok, maybe we should try to cool down the tone and pace of this a little bit. People always get very worked up over topics of sexual abuse. Let's focus on the immediate editing decisions: how to present these studies. I think it is undisputed that <i>some</i> mention needs to be made of them, but that any detail belongs on <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Main" title="Template:Main">main</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> articles such as <a href="/wiki/Pro-pedophile_activism" class="mw-redirect" title="Pro-pedophile activism">pro-pedophile activism</a> or <a href="/wiki/Rind_et_al._controversy" title="Rind et al. controversy">Rind et al. controversy</a>. After all, just a matter of micro-managing tight phrasing and not a very big deal either way. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-05-06T07:39:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-06T04:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:39, 6 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-06T07:39:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-06T04:53:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-06T07:39:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-06T04:53:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-10T19:45:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-06T07:39:00.000Z"></span>It looks like this is going to an RFC and then probably Arbcom because the minority of editors who want the coatrack have just reinserted it--all three paragraphs--without discussion. (This problem has been going on for years at this article, and has involved multiple editors blocked for pro-pedophile activism).-<a href="/wiki/User:PetraSchelm" title="User:PetraSchelm">PetraSchelm</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PetraSchelm" title="User talk:PetraSchelm">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-10T19:45:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-06T07:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:45, 10 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-10T19:45:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-06T07:39:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-10T19:45:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-06T07:39:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-11T22:16:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-10T19:45:00.000Z"></span>And here is an excellent essay from the "Skeptical Inquirer" about the Rind study, for all you skeptics of fringe who might like to participate in the RFC: <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_1_25/ai_68966522">[42]</a>. -<a href="/wiki/User:PetraSchelm" title="User:PetraSchelm">PetraSchelm</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PetraSchelm" title="User talk:PetraSchelm">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-11T22:16:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-10T19:45:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:16, 11 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-11T22:16:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-10T19:45:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PetraSchelm-2008-05-11T22:16:00.000Z-PetraSchelm-2008-05-10T19:45:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bielle-2008-05-11T23:09:00.000Z-Child_Sexual_Abuse"></span>One of the reasons that you are having difficulty attracting opinions from "outside" editors is that the barriers to entry are set so high that few of us are likely to want to get involved. First, you have to be prepared to take endless abuse and personal attacks, and this regardless of your views. (And please don't do a "Who, me?" or ask for diffs, or we will all be here forever.) Both sides do it and most, if not all, individuals. Second, the views of any outsider who is not prepared to claim a high degree of professional background in psychology is going to be dismissed, so who would bother taking the time to think about the issues? And those who do claim a professional background are also dismissed by the other side with a level of vitriol that reminds me of domestic-abuse fights. </p><p>In order likely only to prove my points, I will make one stab at the issues. The article is about sexual abuse perpetrated against children. Leaving aside that "child" may be defined differently across the world's varied cultures, there are very few jurisdictions where sex with a child is not declared, by definition under the law, to be abuse. I think, from what I am reading here and on the pages of the various articles, that these points are agreed as to stating what is the case. (And we are not here, or in the article, dealing with what should be the case.) </p><p>The heavy preponderance of formal studies, broadly accepted in the scientific community, conclude that adults having sex with a child do harm to the child. This would be what I will call here, the "primary conclusion". (No scientific study of which I am aware, and certainly no psychological one, has 100% certainty. The degree of deviance from 100% establishes the amount of weight that should be given to dissenting opinions when discussing the primary conclusions.) </p><p>Rind, and others who seem to agree with him, no matter how many of them write and publish, still represent a very small area of dissent from the primary conclusion. (It is not the number of papers that determine the weight of professional opinion, but the weight of the evidence within any study that, gathered with others, determines the validity of the primary conclusion.) Thus, in an article on Rind or his compatriots, or on pro-pedophile views, you can give his studies the significant weight because you are there only discussing the opinions that dissent from the primary conclusion. Child sex abuse is about the primary conclusion, which is that, flatly stated, sex with adults harms children. I would suggest, given the worldwide weight, that Rind and those who agree with Rind, get a single, short, declaratory sentence about the dissent, and a reference that identifies the study. In Related Links, include the Rind article and the pro-pedophile activism one. There is one outside opinion. Enjoy! <a href="/wiki/User:Bielle" title="User:Bielle">៛ Bielle</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bielle" title="User talk:Bielle">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Bielle-2008-05-11T23:09:00.000Z-Child_Sexual_Abuse" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:09, 11 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bielle-2008-05-11T23:09:00.000Z-Child_Sexual_Abuse"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bielle-2008-05-11T23:09:00.000Z-Child_Sexual_Abuse"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Oera_Linda_and_associated_stubs" data-mw-thread-id="h-Oera_Linda_and_associated_stubs-2008-05-10T08:47:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Oera_Linda_and_associated_stubs-2008-05-10T08:47:00.000Z"></span><a href="/wiki/Oera_Linda" class="mw-redirect" title="Oera Linda">Oera Linda</a> and associated stubs<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Oera_Linda_and_associated_stubs-2008-05-10T08:47:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-10T08:47:00.000Z-Oera_Linda_and_associated_stubs"></span>I'm having problems with the editor who created <a href="/wiki/Oera_Linda" class="mw-redirect" title="Oera Linda">Oera Linda</a>, and related stubs <a href="/wiki/Irtha" class="mw-redirect" title="Irtha">Irtha</a>. <a href="/wiki/Wr-alda" class="mw-redirect" title="Wr-alda">Wr-alda</a>. <a href="/wiki/Frya" class="mw-disambig" title="Frya">Frya</a>, <a href="/wiki/Fasta_(Frisian)" class="mw-redirect" title="Fasta (Frisian)">Fasta (Frisian)</a> and maybe more. The stubs in my opinion have no justification and should be in the main article, maybe left as redirects, and include his personal opinion as shown in edit summaries such as (for <a href="/wiki/Wr-alda" class="mw-redirect" title="Wr-alda">Wr-alda</a> "Look up the Sami god and you'll see it's patently obvious." He's also twice removed my mention of a new article on Oera Linda, I've put it back again, we shall see how long that lasts. I don't want to get into a personal edit war with him.--<a href="/wiki/User:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dougweller">Doug Weller</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Dougweller">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dougweller-2008-05-10T08:47:00.000Z-Oera_Linda_and_associated_stubs" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:47, 10 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-10T08:47:00.000Z-Oera_Linda_and_associated_stubs"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dougweller-2008-05-10T08:47:00.000Z-Oera_Linda_and_associated_stubs"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Pungent_vegetables_give_you_anxiety." data-mw-thread-id="h-Pungent_vegetables_give_you_anxiety.-2008-05-10T21:53:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Pungent_vegetables_give_you_anxiety.-2008-05-10T21:53:00.000Z"></span>Pungent vegetables give you anxiety.<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Pungent_vegetables_give_you_anxiety.-2008-05-10T21:53:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zenwhat-2008-05-10T21:53:00.000Z-Pungent_vegetables_give_you_anxiety."></span>From <a href="/wiki/Su_vegetarianism" class="mw-redirect" title="Su vegetarianism">Su vegetarianism</a>: </p> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1244412712"><blockquote class="templatequote"><p>Su vegetarianism, which some airlines call Asian vegetarian, comes from the Hindu and Buddhist traditions. No animal products whatsoever are eaten; su vegetarians also do not eat the fetid vegetables: onion, garlic, scallions, leeks, or shallots.<br/><br/>This diet not only benefits physical health, but also helps to settle the mind as well. Buddhist experience in meditation shows that those who eat the fetid vegetables are prone to restless minds, and have great difficulty making progress in meditation.</p></blockquote> <p>Su vegetarianism seems to be a combination of vegetarianism, rooted in <a href="/wiki/Mahayana_Buddhism" class="mw-redirect" title="Mahayana Buddhism">Mahayana Buddhism</a>, but the stuff about avoiding "fetid vegetables," is ancient Indian or Chinese folk medicine, not having anything to do with Hinduism or Buddhism. The claims about physical and mental health are also pretty suspect. It might just be a good idea to re-direct it to <a href="/wiki/Buddhist_vegetarianism" title="Buddhist vegetarianism">Buddhist vegetarianism</a>. </p><p>Also, since this is English Wikipedia, shouldn't references be in <i>English?</i> <span style="font-size:large;"><a href="/wiki/Zen" title="Zen">☯</a></span> <span style="font-family:impact;"> <a href="/wiki/User:Zenwhat" title="User:Zenwhat">Zenwhat</a></span> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Zenwhat" title="User talk:Zenwhat">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Zenwhat-2008-05-10T21:53:00.000Z-Pungent_vegetables_give_you_anxiety." class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:53, 10 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zenwhat-2008-05-10T21:53:00.000Z-Pungent_vegetables_give_you_anxiety."></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zenwhat-2008-05-10T21:53:00.000Z-Pungent_vegetables_give_you_anxiety."></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Blueboar-2008-05-10T22:04:00.000Z-Zenwhat-2008-05-10T21:53:00.000Z"></span>Agree with the redirect (or a merge if it is not fully covered already). As for the language of the sourcing... if there are equally good sources in English, Yes, we would prefer them. But if the best sources are in some other language, those are alowed. <a href="/wiki/User:Blueboar" title="User:Blueboar">Blueboar</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Blueboar" title="User talk:Blueboar">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Blueboar-2008-05-10T22:04:00.000Z-Zenwhat-2008-05-10T21:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:04, 10 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Blueboar-2008-05-10T22:04:00.000Z-Zenwhat-2008-05-10T21:53:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Blueboar-2008-05-10T22:04:00.000Z-Zenwhat-2008-05-10T21:53:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Eleland-2008-05-12T05:11:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-05-10T22:04:00.000Z"></span>Well onions and garlic make <i>me</i> anxious, but only about my breath. <<a href="/wiki/User:Eleland" title="User:Eleland"><b>el</b>eland</a>/<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Eleland" title="User talk:Eleland"><b>talk</b></a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Eleland" title="Special:Contributions/Eleland">edits</a>> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Eleland-2008-05-12T05:11:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-05-10T22:04:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:11, 12 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Eleland-2008-05-12T05:11:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-05-10T22:04:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Eleland-2008-05-12T05:11:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-05-10T22:04:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Lead_line_of_feminism" data-mw-thread-id="h-Lead_line_of_feminism-2008-05-11T00:53:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Lead_line_of_feminism-2008-05-11T00:53:00.000Z"></span>Lead line of feminism<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Lead_line_of_feminism-2008-05-11T00:53:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cailil-2008-05-11T00:53:00.000Z-Lead_line_of_feminism"></span>Could somebody give this a quick look. I'm having to argue that the mainstream scholarly position and dictionary definition of <a href="/wiki/Feminism" title="Feminism">feminism</a> should be used without attribution and without giving weight to minor/fringe/dissenting ideas in the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:LEAD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:LEAD">lead line</a>. As is the norm for the lead lines of articles. </p><p>I'm being asked to attribute (that is name drop who says) the clause that "feminism is movement for equal rights for women". This is not something that I think needs to be done in the lead. I'm not necessarily averse to citation in this case but attribution of a view held by the majority of mainstream sources and dictionaries seems unnecessary to me - especially in a lede line, and when the view is cited below in the article's text. </p><p>The unattributed use of the mainstream definition is being disputed, by User:Blackworm, because he contends that becuase authors (see these 2 links <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/0022-3816.00023?journalCode=jopo">[43]</a><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/199310/kaminer-feminism/4">[44]</a> )have contrary views to the mainstream definition (that is basically the dictionary definition) of feminism this mainstream view cannot be presented without attribution in the lede. I think this objection comes under WP:FRINGE. The mainstream definitions and dictionary definitions all say very similar things to the effect of feminism being a movement for equality. These articles don't show why that common mainstream and dictionary definition needs qualification to the degree asked for. </p><p>Now, AFAIK we don't attribute the mainstream and dictionary definition of subjects if that definition is common among the vast majority of reliable scholarly sources and if it is cited in the article. Nor do we need to say this subject "usually is defined" in the lede when the overwhelming majority of definitions present the history of the 'feminism as a movement for equality between mean and women'. Yes there are dissenting opinions about that but we mention them in the article and we don't give it undue weight by putting fringe ideas in the lede. </p><p>Below is a collapsed box detailing a very small sample of sources and dictionary defs stating this mainstream view: </p> <table class="navbox collapsible collapsed" style="text-align: left; border: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em;"> <tbody><tr> <th style="background-color: lightsteelblue; text-align: center;"><b>Showing a very few samples of sources for this mainstream idea </b> </th></tr> <tr> <td> <dl><dt>Some reliable sources already referenced in <a href="/wiki/Feminism" title="Feminism">Feminism</a> that state that feminism is or discussing feminism as a movement for equal rights for women (list is partial)</dt> <dd></dd></dl> <ul><li>Humm, Maggie. 1995. The Dictionary of Feminist Theory. Columbus: Ohio State University Press, p. 251</li> <li>Cornell, Drucilia, At the Heart of Freedom: Feminism, Sex, and Equality (Princeton UP,1998) p. X, <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/978069102896-5" title="Special:BookSources/978069102896-5">978069102896-5</a></li> <li>Messer-Davidow, Ellen, Disciplining feminism: from social activism to academic discourse (Duke University Press, 2002), <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/9780822328437" title="Special:BookSources/9780822328437">9780822328437</a><span class="error" style="font-size:100%"> Parameter error in {{<a href="/wiki/Template:ISBN" title="Template:ISBN">ISBN</a>}}: checksum</span></li> <li>Harding, Sandra, The Feminist Standpoint Theory Reader: Intellectual and Political Controversies (Routledge, 2003), <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/9780415945011" title="Special:BookSources/9780415945011">9780415945011</a></li> <li>Freedman, Estelle B., No Turning Back: The History of Feminism and the Future of Women (London: Ballantine Books, 2003)</li> <li>Phillips, Melanie, The Ascent of Woman: A History of the Suffragette Movement (Abacus, 2004), <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/9780349116600" title="Special:BookSources/9780349116600">9780349116600</a></li> <li>Wheeler, Marjorie Spruill, ed., One Woman, One Vote: Rediscovering the Woman Suffrage Movement (NewSage Press, 1995) <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/9780939165260" title="Special:BookSources/9780939165260">9780939165260</a><span class="error" style="font-size:100%"> Parameter error in {{<a href="/wiki/Template:ISBN" title="Template:ISBN">ISBN</a>}}: checksum</span></li> <li>Stevens, Doris, Jailed for Freedom: American Women Win the Vote (NewSage Press, 1995), <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/9780939165252" title="Special:BookSources/9780939165252">9780939165252</a><span class="error" style="font-size:100%"> Parameter error in {{<a href="/wiki/Template:ISBN" title="Template:ISBN">ISBN</a>}}: checksum</span></li> <li>Freeman, Jo. The politics of women's liberation. David McKay N.Y. 1975</li> <li>Modleski, Tania. Feminism without Women: Culture and Criticism in a “Postfeminist” Age. New York: Routledge, 1991, 3.</li> <li>S. Jackson and J. Jones eds., Contemporary Feminist Theories (Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press)</li> <li>Lingard, Bob, and Peter Douglas, Men Engaging Feminisms: Pro-feminism, Backlashes and Schooling (Open University Press, 1999), <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/9780335198177" title="Special:BookSources/9780335198177">9780335198177</a></li> <li>Michael S. Kimmel, “Who’s Afraid of Men Doing Feminism?,” from Men Doing Feminism, Tom Digby, ed. New York: Routledge, 1993, 57-68</li></ul> <dl><dt>Some further sources (again this list is partial - I'm on record as saying there are hundreds of sources for this view - that's probably and under estimation)</dt></dl> <ul><li><i>Feminism and suffrage: the emergence of an independent women's movement in America, 1848-1869</i><sup id="cite_ref-1" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-1"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>1<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup></li> <li><i>British feminism in the twentieth century</i><sup id="cite_ref-2" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-2"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>2<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup></li> <li><i>The Equal Rights Amendment: The History and the Movement</i><sup id="cite_ref-3" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-3"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>3<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup></li> <li><i>Feminism and Citizenship</i><sup id="cite_ref-4" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-4"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>4<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup></li> <li><i>Women's Movements in the United States: Woman Suffrage, Equal Rights, and Beyond</i><sup id="cite_ref-5" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-5"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>5<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup></li> <li><i>Politics, feminism, and the reformation of gender</i><sup id="cite_ref-6" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-6"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>6<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup>.</li></ul> <dl><dt>Sample of dic defs</dt></dl> <ul><li>Collins dictionary reads: "<i>feminism a doctrine or movement advocating equal rights for women"</i></li> <li>Cambridge University Press dictionary says" feminism:the belief that women should be allowed the same rights, power and opportunities as men and be treated in the same way, or the set of activities intended to achieve this state:"<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=28458&dict=CALD">[45]</a>.</li> <li>Not exactly reliable sources but representative (I don't keep more than 3 dictionaries in my house) <ul><li>The Dictionary.com one is "<i>Feminism: the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men</i>"</li> <li>reference.com "<i>feminism, movement for the political, social, and educational equality of women with men;</i>"</li></ul></li></ul> </td></tr></tbody></table> <p>More, many many more, sources could be added to the collapsed list. (Please check this against <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=feminism+equality&btnG=Search">google scholar</a> and <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://books.google.com/books?tab=sp&sa=N&hl=en&lr=&q=feminism+equality&btnG=Search">google books</a>). Hence my position that attribution (name dropping <b>a</b> scholar) of what is the commonly held mainstream definition (as represented in multiple dictionary definitions as well) is unnecessary in the lead sentence - referencing it is of course okay but that's not even usually necessary in the first line of an article as per WP:LEAD and as can be seen by looking at the lead sentences in any article at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_articles" title="Wikipedia:Featured articles">Wikipedia:Featured_articles</a>. </p><p>If you want to see the discussion <a href="/wiki/Talk:Feminism#Opening_paragraph_.28section_break_.232.29" title="Talk:Feminism"> click here</a> (but it's very long--<a href="/wiki/User:Cailil" title="User:Cailil"><span style="color:grey; font-size:small;"><b>Cailil</b></span></a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cailil" title="User talk:Cailil"><span style="color:grey;"><b>talk</b></span></a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Cailil-2008-05-11T00:53:00.000Z-Lead_line_of_feminism" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:53, 11 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cailil-2008-05-11T00:53:00.000Z-Lead_line_of_feminism"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cailil-2008-05-11T00:53:00.000Z-Lead_line_of_feminism"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-05-11T22:04:00.000Z-Cailil-2008-05-11T00:53:00.000Z"></span>I haven't got time to look at the whole discussion right now, but you are right that a mainstream definition should be given in the lede, avoiding references. There is space in later sections for all the notable controversies. <a href="/wiki/User:Itsmejudith" title="User:Itsmejudith">Itsmejudith</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Itsmejudith" title="User talk:Itsmejudith">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Itsmejudith-2008-05-11T22:04:00.000Z-Cailil-2008-05-11T00:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:04, 11 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-05-11T22:04:00.000Z-Cailil-2008-05-11T00:53:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Itsmejudith-2008-05-11T22:04:00.000Z-Cailil-2008-05-11T00:53:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cailil-2008-05-12T00:02:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-05-11T22:04:00.000Z"></span>Thanks Itsmejudith, I think we have resolved this issue at this point--<a href="/wiki/User:Cailil" title="User:Cailil"><span style="color:grey; font-size:small;"><b>Cailil</b></span></a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cailil" title="User talk:Cailil"><span style="color:grey;"><b>talk</b></span></a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Cailil-2008-05-12T00:02:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-05-11T22:04:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:02, 12 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cailil-2008-05-12T00:02:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-05-11T22:04:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cailil-2008-05-12T00:02:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-05-11T22:04:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Haemo-2008-05-12T01:08:00.000Z-Cailil-2008-05-12T00:02:00.000Z"></span>This is a classic POV ploy; compromise the entire article because of a fringe viewpoint. If facts are disputed by a fringe minority, then it is argued that the article cannot discuss them as facts, and then state disagreements with them — instead, it must not present them as facts. Naturally, this is a huge violation of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:UNDUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:UNDUE">undue weight</a> and you're completely right here. --<a href="/wiki/User:Haemo" title="User:Haemo">Haemo</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Haemo" title="User talk:Haemo">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Haemo-2008-05-12T01:08:00.000Z-Cailil-2008-05-12T00:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:08, 12 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Haemo-2008-05-12T01:08:00.000Z-Cailil-2008-05-12T00:02:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Haemo-2008-05-12T01:08:00.000Z-Cailil-2008-05-12T00:02:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Debate_at_WT:V" data-mw-thread-id="h-Debate_at_WT:V"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Debate_at_WT:V"></span>Debate at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:V" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:V">WT:V</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Debate_at_WT:V"></span></h2></div> <p><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#What_is_.22mainstream.3F.22" title="Wikipedia talk:Verifiability">Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#What_is_.22mainstream.3F.22</a> could use some views of people on the front lines. When people are cheerfully saying that all the articles need is a few people to go in and sort things out, then, clearly, they have never attempted to sort out any alternative medicine article. At the moment, the article on <a href="/wiki/Radionics" title="Radionics">Radionics</a> - a form of witchdoctory where a bit of hair or blood is put into a machine to allow distant practitioners to send healthy vibes at you - is full of nothing but glowing praise, for instance, and this is true of 90% of alternative and complementary medicines. <a href="/wiki/Homeopathy" title="Homeopathy">Homeopathy</a> required many years of work to get to the state it's in - and is now at Arbcom. 05:16, 12 May 2008 (UTC) <small>—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/User:Shoemaker%27s_Holiday" title="User:Shoemaker's Holiday">Shoemaker's Holiday</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Shoemaker%27s_Holiday" title="User talk:Shoemaker's Holiday">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Shoemaker%27s_Holiday" title="Special:Contributions/Shoemaker's Holiday">contribs</a>) </small> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Prem_Rawat" data-mw-thread-id="h-Prem_Rawat-2008-04-13T00:55:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Prem_Rawat-2008-04-13T00:55:00.000Z"></span>Prem Rawat<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Prem_Rawat-2008-04-13T00:55:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><a href="/wiki/Prem_Rawat" title="Prem Rawat"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T00:55:00.000Z-Prem_Rawat"></span>Prem Rawat</a> is the Indian-born head of a spritual movement. He was once known as "Guru Maharaj Ji" and led the <a href="/wiki/Divine_Light_Mission" title="Divine Light Mission">Divine Light Mission</a>. He and his movement were the subject of numerous scholarly and journalistic articles during their heyday. One scholar's book has been accused of making exceptional claims, trigering <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:REDFLAG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:REDFLAG">WP:REDFLAG</a>. Exceptional claims require exceptional sources, so in addition to deciding that the claims are exceptional we need to decide that the source is not a "high-quality reliable source". The debate is at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Criticism_of_Prem_Rawat#Van_der_Lans" title="Talk:Criticism of Prem Rawat">Talk:Criticism of Prem Rawat#Van der Lans</a>. As currently drafted, the assertions of <a href="/wiki/Jan_van_der_Lans" title="Jan van der Lans">Jan van der Lans</a> are summarized thus: </p> <ul><li><i><a href="/wiki/Jan_van_der_Lans" title="Jan van der Lans">Jan van der Lans</a>, a professor of <a href="/wiki/Psychology_of_religion" title="Psychology of religion">psychology of religion</a> at the <a href="/wiki/Radboud_University_Nijmegen" title="Radboud University Nijmegen">Radboud University Nijmegen</a>, wrote about followers of gurus in a book published in <a href="/wiki/1981" title="1981">1981</a> commissioned by the <a href="/wiki/KSGV" title="KSGV">KSGV</a>, a <a href="/wiki/Christian" class="mw-redirect" title="Christian">Christian</a>-inspired Dutch association that organizes conferences and publishes articles and books related to <a href="/wiki/Faith" title="Faith">faith</a>, <a href="/wiki/Religion" title="Religion">religion</a> and <a href="/wiki/Mental_health" title="Mental health">mental health</a><sup id="cite_ref-7" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-7"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>7<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup>. Van der Lans wrote that Maharaji is an example of a guru who has become a charlatan leading a double life. On the one hand, he tried to remain loyal to the role and to the expectations of his students, yet on the other hand, his private life was one of idleness and pleasure, which was only known to small circle of insiders. According to van der Lans, one could consider him either a fraud or a victim of his surroundings.<sup id="cite_ref-8" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-8"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>8<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> </i> <ul><li><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.ksgv.nl/KSGV_doelstelling.html">KSGV: Objectives</a><br/><i>"Het KSGV onderneemt zijn activiteiten vanuit een christelijke inspiratie."</i></li> <li>Lans, Jan van der (Dutch language) <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.ksgv.nl/2-18.html"><i>Volgelingen van de goeroe: Hedendaagse religieuze bewegingen in Nederland</i></a> page 117, written upon request for the <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.ksgv.nl/KSGV_English.html">KSGV</a> published by Ambo, Baarn, <a href="/wiki/1981" title="1981">1981</a> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/90-263-0521-4" title="Special:BookSources/90-263-0521-4">90-263-0521-4</a></li></ul></li></ul> <p>The specific objections are "that he's a charlatan leading a double life" and that "his private life was one of idleness and pleasure, which was only known to small circle of insiders". FWIW, everyone agrees that the subject led a life of luxury and opulence. </p><p>To rebut the assertion that these are exceptional claims, I've done research on news clippings from the era, and find that these claims are confirmed by comments from friends, family, and associates (some ofthem estranged). </p> <ul><li>Rawat's mother accused him of living like a <i>playboy</i> and <i>adopting a despicable, nonspiritual way of life</i>. Susan Butcher, speaking on behalf of Shri Mataji, said, <i>He has not ben practicing what he has been preaching....He has always preached and recommend to his devotees to live a life of vegetarianism, celibacy, and abstention from alcohol, and all excessive forms of materialism. Now he himself is indulging and encouraging his devotees to eat meat, to get married and have sexual relations, and to drink. He's not living a spiritual life. He's being a playboy.</i> <sup id="cite_ref-9" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-9"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>9<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup></li> <li><i>Mishler, the organization's former president, said tight security surrounding the house is part of 'elaborate precautions' Maharaj Ji has taken to hide his private life from followers...Mishler said Maharaj Ji's ban on alcohol and marijuana for his followers was ignored at the estate...Mishler said he left the group because 'there was no way of accomplishing the ideals expounded by the mission.' In addition, he said more and more of the church money began to go for personal use and he was concerned that the Divine Light Mission was becoming a 'tax evasion for the guru.'</i><sup id="cite_ref-10" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-10"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>10<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup></li> <li><i>Back in India, his colleagues were also sceptical: "The fact is that some Indian leaders - religous and lay- consider Maharaj Ji a fraud and his mission a gigantic ripoff. </i> <sup id="cite_ref-11" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-11"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>11<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup></li> <li><i>But his personal physician and disciple, Dr. John Horton, attributes the boy's weight to a sedentary life of making decisions.</i> <sup id="cite_ref-12" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-12"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>12<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup></li></ul> <p>In light of this information, is it reasonable to say that van der Lans represents a fringe viewpoint, and that his scholarly research makes exceptional claims, or are his assertions consistent with statements by other parties, meaning that they are not exceptional? <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Will_Beback" title="Special:Contributions/Will Beback"> ·:· </a><a href="/wiki/User:Will_Beback" title="User:Will Beback">Will Beback</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Will_Beback" title="User talk:Will Beback">·:·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T00:55:00.000Z-Prem_Rawat" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:55, 13 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T00:55:00.000Z-Prem_Rawat"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T00:55:00.000Z-Prem_Rawat"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jossi-2008-04-13T01:31:00.000Z-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T00:55:00.000Z"></span>This is a one sided presentation of the dispute, which omits important facts. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:REDFLAG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:REDFLAG">WP:REDFLAG</a> applies for the 1973 Mother's claims: <i>A devotee of Satguru, of God, he liquidates himself, or dissolved himself, or effaces himself on the Lotus Feet of the Lord".</i> (referring to her son, Prem Rawat, age 13) and a November 1972, Time Magazine which reported that his mother and three older brothers kissed his feet as a demonstration of worship<sup id="cite_ref-13" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-13"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>13<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup>. Compare with the statement made after the rift (caused by the marriage of PR to a non-hindu against his mother's wishes) about "leading a despicable life", only three years later (!!!). Clearly a <b>report of a statement by someone that seems out of character, embarrassing, controversial, or against an interest they had previously defended.</b> (from <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:REDFLAG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:REDFLAG">WP:REDFLAG</a>).</dd></dl> <dl><dd>WP:REDFLAG also applies for the absurd claim (conveniently omitted by Will Beback) about "colleagues in India", who claimed he was a fraud as Rawat was a 22 years old, instead of 16 years old at the time. The full quote; <i>The fact is that some Indian leaders - religous and lay- consider Maharaj Ji a fraud and his mission a gigantic ripoff. A group of religious leaders met in New Delhi to demand that the boy guru be examined by a panel of doctors to determine his true age, which they claimed is at least 22.</i></dd></dl> <dl><dd>WP:REDFLAG, also applies to Mishler, who made these claims after leaving the organization due to conflicts. This Mishler went to the extent to make outrageous claims, such as that "that practices Maharaj Ji [Prem Rawat] employed, theoretically to subdue the ego, included 'stripping devotees, pouring abrasive chemicals on their bodies and into their mouths, administering drugs, having them beaten with a stick or thrown into swimming pools." A claim that is not included in any of the many scholarly sources available on the subject. There is <i>one</i> mention of Mishler's name in one source, that omits that information for very obvious reasons.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>The text attributed to van der Lans, is not accurate. It was published is in a book published by an Protestant Evangelical organization that presents information from a "Christian inspired perspective" (my translation, as Will omits the translation of the KSGV objectives), who caters to pastors and churches. Clearly a <a href="/wiki/Christian_apologetics" title="Christian apologetics">Christian apologetic</a> source, which needs to be assessed in that context (btw, there are no sources or references in that publication). The source is in Dutch and not available for verification, although some editors are making efforts to obtain a copy. <a href="/wiki/User:Jossi" title="User:Jossi">≈ jossi ≈</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jossi" title="User talk:Jossi">(talk)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Jossi-2008-04-13T01:31:00.000Z-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T00:55:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jossi-2008-04-13T01:31:00.000Z-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T00:55:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jossi-2008-04-13T01:31:00.000Z-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T00:55:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T02:10:00.000Z-Jossi-2008-04-13T01:31:00.000Z"></span>The proposed draft fully attributes the assertions to their author. It is not being presented as an omniscient viewpoint, but rather as the viewpoint of a notable Dutch scholar. The <a href="/wiki/KSGV" title="KSGV">KSGV</a> is linked in the text, which also describes the publisher as, <i>...a Christian-inspired Dutch association that organizes conferences and publishes articles and books related to faith...</i> I asked you several times if you objected to the scholar in general or just this book and you never responded so it'd be helpful if you could give your opinion on that matter here.</dd> <dd>The source for Mishler is the L.A. Times., and the subject's mother's accusations were carried by the wire services and at least dozens of newspapers printed them. It's entirely verifiable that they said said those things. We're not in a position to judge whether they are correct or incorrect. They do show that <a href="/wiki/Jan_van_der_Lans" title="Jan van der Lans">Jan van der Lans</a> did not simply make up the assertions that are being objected to. While it can be argued that quoting them would be a primary source, he is a scholar and a secondary source.</dd> <dd>Regarding the subject's age, that isn't in dispute here so it appears to be a <a href="/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi#Red_herring" class="mw-redirect" title="Ignoratio elenchi">WP:REDHERRING</a>. Jossi appears to be arguing that these assertions are so wildly false that we can't even report that they were made. On the contrary, I think they are a mere summation of widely-reported assertions. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Will_Beback" title="Special:Contributions/Will Beback"> ·:· </a><a href="/wiki/User:Will_Beback" title="User:Will Beback">Will Beback</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Will_Beback" title="User talk:Will Beback">·:·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T02:10:00.000Z-Jossi-2008-04-13T01:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T02:10:00.000Z-Jossi-2008-04-13T01:31:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T02:10:00.000Z-Jossi-2008-04-13T01:31:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jossi-2008-04-13T02:51:00.000Z-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T02:10:00.000Z"></span>The age issue is certainly important, as it shows the necessary context to evaluate that source. I have no problems with van der Lans articles published by non-partisan publications, my argument is about the application of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:REDFLAG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:REDFLAG">WP:REDFLAG</a> to the sources you have brought to support your contention. <a href="/wiki/User:Jossi" title="User:Jossi">≈ jossi ≈</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jossi" title="User talk:Jossi">(talk)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Jossi-2008-04-13T02:51:00.000Z-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T02:10:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:51, 13 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jossi-2008-04-13T02:51:00.000Z-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T02:10:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jossi-2008-04-13T02:51:00.000Z-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T02:10:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T04:21:00.000Z-Jossi-2008-04-13T02:51:00.000Z"></span>If you want to impeach the Indian leaders, reigious and lay, that called the subject a "fraud" then you're welcome to do so. But, combined with the subject's mother and former associate, they show that it's not an exceptional claim to say that van der Lans has accused Rawat of being a charlatan, or to include that accusation in the article. I mean, it's an even more exceptional claim to say that the subject was the "Lord of the Universe", yet we report that assertion. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Will_Beback" title="Special:Contributions/Will Beback"> ·:· </a><a href="/wiki/User:Will_Beback" title="User:Will Beback">Will Beback</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Will_Beback" title="User talk:Will Beback">·:·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T04:21:00.000Z-Jossi-2008-04-13T02:51:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:21, 13 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T04:21:00.000Z-Jossi-2008-04-13T02:51:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T04:21:00.000Z-Jossi-2008-04-13T02:51:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jossi-2008-04-13T04:57:00.000Z-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T04:21:00.000Z"></span>The calling of "Lord of the Universe" by his devotees in the 70's is widely reported. There is even a parody documentary <a href="/wiki/Lord_of_the_Universe_(documentary)" class="mw-redirect" title="Lord of the Universe (documentary)">Lord of the Universe (documentary)</a>, and my argument about WP:REDFLAG, was not about van der Lans accusations, but about the sources you brought to support your argument. Remove these sources that are obvious redflags, and what have you got? Not much. The problem with van der Lans quote is related to the fact that it is published in a partisan source, and that (a) it repeats claims that have, per my evidence, raise <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:REDFLAG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:REDFLAG">WP:REDFLAG</a> concerns; (b) There is no scholarly source (and there are many) that repeat these claims; and (c) this is a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BLP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BLP">WP:BLP</a>, and the quality of sources is paramount for such claims. Basically, how can we call that a <i>significant</i> viewpoint? We can't<a href="/wiki/User:Jossi" title="User:Jossi">≈ jossi ≈</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jossi" title="User talk:Jossi">(talk)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Jossi-2008-04-13T04:57:00.000Z-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T04:21:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:57, 13 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jossi-2008-04-13T04:57:00.000Z-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T04:21:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jossi-2008-04-13T04:57:00.000Z-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T04:21:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><br/><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jossi-2008-04-13T01:53:00.000Z-Prem_Rawat"></span> (<i>What this was placed in this noticeboard? The correct noticeboard seems to be <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:V/N" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:V/N">Wikipedia:V/N</a>.</i>) <a href="/wiki/User:Jossi" title="User:Jossi">≈ jossi ≈</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jossi" title="User talk:Jossi">(talk)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Jossi-2008-04-13T01:53:00.000Z-Prem_Rawat" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:53, 13 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jossi-2008-04-13T01:53:00.000Z-Prem_Rawat"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jossi-2008-04-13T01:53:00.000Z-Prem_Rawat"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:REDFLAG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:REDFLAG"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T02:10:00.000Z-Jossi-2008-04-13T01:53:00.000Z"></span>WP:REDFLAG</a> says to see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories">Wikipedia:Fringe theories</a>, which in turns points here. You seem to be arguing that van der Lans is promoting a fringe theory. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Will_Beback" title="Special:Contributions/Will Beback"> ·:· </a><a href="/wiki/User:Will_Beback" title="User:Will Beback">Will Beback</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Will_Beback" title="User talk:Will Beback">·:·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T02:10:00.000Z-Jossi-2008-04-13T01:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T02:10:00.000Z-Jossi-2008-04-13T01:53:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T02:10:00.000Z-Jossi-2008-04-13T01:53:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jossi-2008-04-13T02:49:00.000Z-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T02:10:00.000Z"></span>No, Will. I am arguing about applying <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:REDFLAG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:REDFLAG">WP:REDFLAG</a> as it relates to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:V#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_sources" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:V">Wikipedia:V#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_sources</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Jossi" title="User:Jossi">≈ jossi ≈</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jossi" title="User talk:Jossi">(talk)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Jossi-2008-04-13T02:49:00.000Z-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T02:10:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:49, 13 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jossi-2008-04-13T02:49:00.000Z-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T02:10:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jossi-2008-04-13T02:49:00.000Z-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T02:10:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T04:21:00.000Z-Jossi-2008-04-13T02:49:00.000Z"></span>The argument on the talk hasn't been that the source is unrelaible, it's been that the claim is outlandish. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Will_Beback" title="Special:Contributions/Will Beback"> ·:· </a><a href="/wiki/User:Will_Beback" title="User:Will Beback">Will Beback</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Will_Beback" title="User talk:Will Beback">·:·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T04:21:00.000Z-Jossi-2008-04-13T02:49:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:21, 13 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T04:21:00.000Z-Jossi-2008-04-13T02:49:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Will_Beback-2008-04-13T04:21:00.000Z-Jossi-2008-04-13T02:49:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Differences_in_perception" data-mw-thread-id="h-Differences_in_perception-Prem_Rawat-2008-04-13T08:25:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Differences_in_perception-Prem_Rawat-2008-04-13T08:25:00.000Z"></span>Differences in perception<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Differences_in_perception-Prem_Rawat-2008-04-13T08:25:00.000Z"></span></h3></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading4"><h4 id="Cultural_differences_US-Europe" data-mw-thread-id="h-Cultural_differences_US-Europe-Differences_in_perception"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Cultural_differences_US-Europe-Differences_in_perception"></span>Cultural differences US-Europe<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Cultural_differences_US-Europe-Differences_in_perception"></span></h4></div> <p>Schnabel points to a difference in appreciation between northern America, the eastern world and Europe (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/schn016tuss01_01/schn016tuss01_01_0009.htm">p 104</a>): </p> <table> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td>Voorts mag worden opgemerkt, dat de meeste nieuwe religieuze bewegingen Nederland hebben bereikt via de Verenigde Staten en beïnvloed zijn door de ‘zucht naar rijkdom’, waarvan De Tocqueville (1971 (1840), 206) al tot zijn verbazing moest vaststellen dat die ‘bij de Amerikanen dus geenszins in een kwade reuk staat, ja zelfs bewonderd wordt...’. De ambivalente houding ten opzichte van geld, die de Europeaan kenmerkt, is in Amerika en ook in het Oosten vrijwel geheel afwezig.<br/>In de Verenigde Staten wordt geld duidelijk als een positief bewijs en als een symbool van het eigen maatschappelijk succes beleefd. Een kwantitatieve verandering leidt hier zonder twijfel tot een kwalitatieve omslag. Wie arm is, heeft dat aan zichzelf te wijten: wie rijk is heeft dat aan zichzelf te danken. In India denkt men daar misschien wat genuanceerder over, maar ook daar geldt dat het bezit van geld zeker geen schande is en ook geen gevoel van schuld geeft in de confrontatie met de armoede rondom. Rijkdom is altijd verdiend. Het ideaal van de Indiase ascese is dan ook niet het in armoe leven op zich, maar het verzaken van de wereld: het loslaten van dat wat men heeft, nadat men zijn maatschappelijke verplichtingen heeft vervuld. Arm zijn is op zich geen verdienste, en de armen is ook zeker niet meer het rijk der hemelen dan de rijken. </td> <td> </td> <td>(summary:) Schnabel points out that in the US (and the East but with more nuance there) richess is seen as a positive sign; In Europe (with the Netherlands as an example), money has a "bad odour", in general - or: Europeans have an ambivalent attitude w.r.t. richess. </td></tr></tbody></table> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading4"><h4 id="Crossing_the_line" data-mw-thread-id="h-Crossing_the_line-Differences_in_perception"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Crossing_the_line-Differences_in_perception"></span>Crossing the line<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Crossing_the_line-Differences_in_perception"></span></h4></div> <p>A bit simplistic, but this is more or less the picture: in Europe a religious leader would cross a line from the moment he lives in luxury, or alternatively when he <i>teaches</i> something different as to what he applies to himself (for this point see Schnabel p 101, this makes a charismatic leader a fraud/"bedrieger"); the US has more tolerance in that respect: neither does affluence in and by itself, nor the charismatic leader putting himself apart from the flock carry a necessary connotation of condemnation. There, affluence is admired; "fraud" would only apply when appropriating money in mischievous ways, etc. </p><p>For all Dutch authors from the early 1980s we've been considering regarding Rawat (Haan, Van der Lans, Kranenborg, Lammers, Schnabel,...) there's no doubt, Rawat crossed a line he shouldn't have crossed (in a <i>European</i> perspective) - that is the <i>mainstream</i> opinion there; For US/northern American authors of roughly the same period the <i>mainstream</i> opinion is that he's a quite successful religious leader, and that accusations from former adherents and disgraced family members are "fringe". </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading4"><h4 id="Conclusions" data-mw-thread-id="h-Conclusions-Differences_in_perception-2008-04-13T08:25:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Conclusions-Differences_in_perception-2008-04-13T08:25:00.000Z"></span>Conclusions<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Conclusions-Differences_in_perception-2008-04-13T08:25:00.000Z"></span></h4></div> <ol><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Francis_Schonken-2008-04-13T08:25:00.000Z-Conclusions"></span>For sources from the Netherlands of the early 1980s REDFLAG applies to those sources that would contend that Rawat <i>didn't</i> cross a line of appropriatness — not the other way around;</li> <li>Regarding the underlying differences of appreciation between Northern America and Europe (...and the East): I have no clearcut solution as to how to present that in Wikipedia. Anyway on the one side I suppose we should try to avoid the pitfalls of a too US-centred view (compare <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV/FAQ#Anglo-American_focus_and_systematic_bias" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV/FAQ">WP:NPOV/FAQ#Anglo-American focus and systematic bias</a>); on the other hand the <a href="/wiki/Prem_Rawat" title="Prem Rawat">Prem Rawat</a> article (and by extention the "Criticism" article) are hardly the place to start expounding on these general cultural differences: these are biographical articles, BLP's even, that leaves little room for the interpretation of the worldwide connotations of terms like "fraud" (which, according to any Dutch-English dictionary, is the correct English translation of "bedrieger").</li></ol> <p>--<a href="/wiki/User:Francis_Schonken" title="User:Francis Schonken">Francis Schonken</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Francis_Schonken" title="User talk:Francis Schonken">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Francis_Schonken-2008-04-13T08:25:00.000Z-Conclusions" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:25, 13 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Francis_Schonken-2008-04-13T08:25:00.000Z-Conclusions"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Francis_Schonken-2008-04-13T08:25:00.000Z-Conclusions"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading4"><h4 id="Comments" data-mw-thread-id="h-Comments-Differences_in_perception-2008-04-13T14:19:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Comments-Differences_in_perception-2008-04-13T14:19:00.000Z"></span>Comments<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Comments-Differences_in_perception-2008-04-13T14:19:00.000Z"></span></h4></div> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Blueboar-2008-04-13T14:19:00.000Z-Comments"></span>I am reminded of an interesting comparison between US and European attitudes in reguards to the concept of "Equality" that I once read in an Op-Ed collumn in a newspaper (I no longer remember which paper)... A poor man sees a rich man drive by in a fancy automobile... if the poor man is an American, he will say to himself: "Someday, I will ride in a fancy car just like that guy". If the poor man is a European, he will say to himself: "Someday I will make that guy get out and walk just like me". Not sure if this has anything to do with the current debate... it just came to mind. <a href="/wiki/User:Blueboar" title="User:Blueboar">Blueboar</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Blueboar" title="User talk:Blueboar">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Blueboar-2008-04-13T14:19:00.000Z-Comments" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:19, 13 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Blueboar-2008-04-13T14:19:00.000Z-Comments"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Blueboar-2008-04-13T14:19:00.000Z-Comments"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Relata_refero-2008-04-14T14:36:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-04-13T14:19:00.000Z"></span>Since we're OT, I can add that there are a couple of economics papers demonstrating why <i>both</i> beliefs, as well a moral standard of the sort Francis talks about above, could be simultaneously rational and self-reinforcing. --<span style="font-family:Georgia"><a href="/wiki/User:Relata_refero" title="User:Relata refero">Relata refero</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Relata_refero" title="User talk:Relata refero">disp.</a>)</span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Relata_refero-2008-04-14T14:36:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-04-13T14:19:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:36, 14 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Relata_refero-2008-04-14T14:36:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-04-13T14:19:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Relata_refero-2008-04-14T14:36:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-04-13T14:19:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-70.105.57.250-2008-04-13T14:30:00.000Z-Comments"></span>"Schnabel points out that in the US (and the East but with more nuance there) richess is seen as a positive sign; In Europe (with the Netherlands as an example), money has a "bad odour", in general - or: Europeans have an ambivalent attitude w.r.t. richess."</li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Gee, you'd think there are two groups serving two different masters. One group loves and serves Mammon, and lives to accumulate it in this temporal world, while the other group hates it. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/70.105.57.250" title="Special:Contributions/70.105.57.250">70.105.57.250</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:70.105.57.250" title="User talk:70.105.57.250">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-70.105.57.250-2008-04-13T14:30:00.000Z-Comments" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:30, 13 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-70.105.57.250-2008-04-13T14:30:00.000Z-Comments"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-70.105.57.250-2008-04-13T14:30:00.000Z-Comments"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li class="mw-empty-elt"></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Momento-2008-04-15T22:30:00.000Z-70.105.57.250-2008-04-13T14:30:00.000Z"></span>When Rawat married in 1974 his followers gave him a Maserati and a boat. Scholars who compare him unfavorably to the penniless celibate monk are judging him by the wrong measure. His followers wanted him to live a life of luxury and therefore he is not being duplicitous by obliging them.<a href="/wiki/User:Momento" title="User:Momento">Momento</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Momento" title="User talk:Momento">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Momento-2008-04-15T22:30:00.000Z-70.105.57.250-2008-04-13T14:30:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:30, 15 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Momento-2008-04-15T22:30:00.000Z-70.105.57.250-2008-04-13T14:30:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Momento-2008-04-15T22:30:00.000Z-70.105.57.250-2008-04-13T14:30:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Francis_Schonken-2008-05-10T12:21:00.000Z-Momento-2008-04-15T22:30:00.000Z"></span>...which completely misses the point. Van der Lans didn't compare to "the penniless celibate monk", nor would he very likely have done: <ul><li>There were comparatively few monks in the Netherlands, that wouldn't have been an image that suited his target public very well;</li> <li>The Netherlands were sexually quite liberated at the time: I didn't read any of the sources discussed here <i>criticising</i> Rawat for having a soulmate, even less for being married: most clergy in the Netherlands could marry, and those who couldn't (...for instance Catholic priests), were rather criticised because their religion <i>didn't</i> allow them to marry - that criticism was even prominent within their own ranks at the time (and place), don't underestimate the post <a href="/wiki/Vaticanum_II" class="mw-redirect" title="Vaticanum II">Vaticanum II</a> atmosphere which made even most Catholics believe that pretty soon obligatory celibate for priests would come to an end;</li> <li>"Penniless": at the time (and place) abbeys and their inhabitants were rather cricicised for their <i>richess</i>, not for being penniless (which nobody would believe).</li></ul></dd> <dd>Really, please address the sources and not a figment of your imagination.</dd> <dd>Apart from this complete cultural misappreciation, you even more fundamentally miss the point in your defense of what Rawat "was" or "was not". There's no merit in that discussion (aka: "verifiability not truth" per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:V" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:V">WP:V</a>). How did reliable sources describe him, that's what Wikipedia is about: the sources discussed here described Rawat at least as "ambiguous", to which no REDFLAG applies (again: REDFLAG would apply if they would have failed to point out that ambiguity). --<a href="/wiki/User:Francis_Schonken" title="User:Francis Schonken">Francis Schonken</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Francis_Schonken" title="User talk:Francis Schonken">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Francis_Schonken-2008-05-10T12:21:00.000Z-Momento-2008-04-15T22:30:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:21, 10 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Francis_Schonken-2008-05-10T12:21:00.000Z-Momento-2008-04-15T22:30:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Francis_Schonken-2008-05-10T12:21:00.000Z-Momento-2008-04-15T22:30:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andries-2008-05-12T08:54:00.000Z-Francis_Schonken-2008-05-10T12:21:00.000Z"></span>I think that what <a href="/wiki/Paul_Schnabel" title="Paul Schnabel">Paul Schnabel</a> wrote then about the differences was and is still true. For example, the opulent lifestyle of <a href="/wiki/Jeremiah_Wright" title="Jeremiah Wright">Jeremiah Wright</a> would be widely condemned in the Netherlands. <a href="/wiki/User:Andries" title="User:Andries">Andries</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andries" title="User talk:Andries">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Andries-2008-05-12T08:54:00.000Z-Francis_Schonken-2008-05-10T12:21:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andries-2008-05-12T08:54:00.000Z-Francis_Schonken-2008-05-10T12:21:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andries-2008-05-12T08:54:00.000Z-Francis_Schonken-2008-05-10T12:21:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andries-2008-05-12T11:21:00.000Z-Francis_Schonken-2008-05-10T12:21:00.000Z"></span>I think that I am about the only one who has read most of the book "Followers of the guru"/"Volgelingen van de goeroe" by <a href="/wiki/Jan_van_der_Lans" title="Jan van der Lans">Jan van der Lans</a> and I can only repeat my opinion that Jossi is wrong when he says that the book is Christian apologetic. I introduced this book to Wikipedia and I generally dislike Christian apologetic sources. This could be added to the long list of specious allegations that Jossi makes about sources and their paraphrasing that he does not like regarding <a href="/wiki/Prem_Rawat" title="Prem Rawat">Prem Rawat</a>, <a href="/wiki/Divine_Light_Mission" title="Divine Light Mission">Divine Light Mission</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Andries" title="User:Andries">Andries</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andries" title="User talk:Andries">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Andries-2008-05-12T11:21:00.000Z-Francis_Schonken-2008-05-10T12:21:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:21, 12 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andries-2008-05-12T11:21:00.000Z-Francis_Schonken-2008-05-10T12:21:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andries-2008-05-12T11:21:00.000Z-Francis_Schonken-2008-05-10T12:21:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Take_back_to_Criticism_of_Prem_Rawat?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Take_back_to_Criticism_of_Prem_Rawat?-Prem_Rawat-2008-05-12T12:44:00.000Z"><span id="Take_back_to_Criticism_of_Prem_Rawat.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Take_back_to_Criticism_of_Prem_Rawat?-Prem_Rawat-2008-05-12T12:44:00.000Z"></span>Take back to Criticism of Prem Rawat?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Take_back_to_Criticism_of_Prem_Rawat?-Prem_Rawat-2008-05-12T12:44:00.000Z"></span></h3></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Francis_Schonken-2008-05-12T12:44:00.000Z-Take_back_to_Criticism_of_Prem_Rawat?"></span>This discussion originated at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Criticism_of_Prem_Rawat#Van_der_Lans" title="Talk:Criticism of Prem Rawat">Talk:Criticism of Prem Rawat#Van der Lans</a>. Maybe it's time to take it back there. </p><p>In the mean while Jayen provided a context analysis there (<a href="/wiki/Talk:Criticism_of_Prem_Rawat#van_der_Lans:_context" title="Talk:Criticism of Prem Rawat">Talk:Criticism of Prem Rawat#van der Lans: context</a> - "The text on Andries' page was essentially correct ...") – the apparent context being a fairly standard description of disciple-guru relationship, as pointed out by Jossi. </p><p> Is anyone still contending a REDFLAG re. Van der Lans? In other words, can we get rid of (<a href="/wiki/Criticism_of_Prem_Rawat#Observations_from_scholars" class="mw-redirect" title="Criticism of Prem Rawat">Criticism of Prem Rawat#Observations from scholars</a>):</p><blockquote><p><a href="/wiki/Jan_van_der_Lans" title="Jan van der Lans">Jan van der Lans</a>, a professor of <a href="/wiki/Psychology_of_religion" title="Psychology of religion">psychology of religion</a> at the <a href="/wiki/Radboud_University_Nijmegen" title="Radboud University Nijmegen">Radboud University Nijmegen</a>, wrote about followers of gurus in a book published in <a href="/wiki/1981" title="1981">1981</a> commissioned by the <a href="/wiki/KSGV" title="KSGV">KSGV</a>, a <a href="/wiki/Christian" class="mw-redirect" title="Christian">Christian</a>-inspired Dutch association that organizes conferences and publishes articles and books related to <a href="/wiki/Faith" title="Faith">faith</a>, <a href="/wiki/Religion" title="Religion">religion</a> and <a href="/wiki/Mental_health" title="Mental health">mental health</a><ref><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.ksgv.nl/KSGV_doelstelling.html">KSGV: Objectives</a><br><i>"Het KSGV onderneemt zijn activiteiten vanuit een christelijke inspiratie."</i></ref>. Van der Lans wrote that...</p></blockquote><p>... and replace it by:</p><blockquote><p><a href="/wiki/Jan_van_der_Lans" title="Jan van der Lans">Jan van der Lans</a>, a Dutch professor of <a href="/wiki/Psychology_of_religion" title="Psychology of religion">psychology of religion</a> wrote in 1981...</p></blockquote><p>? --<a href="/wiki/User:Francis_Schonken" title="User:Francis Schonken">Francis Schonken</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Francis_Schonken" title="User talk:Francis Schonken">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Francis_Schonken-2008-05-12T12:44:00.000Z-Take_back_to_Criticism_of_Prem_Rawat?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:44, 12 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Francis_Schonken-2008-05-12T12:44:00.000Z-Take_back_to_Criticism_of_Prem_Rawat?"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Francis_Schonken-2008-05-12T12:44:00.000Z-Take_back_to_Criticism_of_Prem_Rawat?"></span> </p><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Stalin_apologist" data-mw-thread-id="h-Stalin_apologist-2008-05-08T22:17:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Stalin_apologist-2008-05-08T22:17:00.000Z"></span>Stalin apologist<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Stalin_apologist-2008-05-08T22:17:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><a href="/wiki/User:Mista-X" title="User:Mista-X"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MastCell-2008-05-08T22:17:00.000Z-Stalin_apologist"></span>Mista-X</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mista-X" title="User talk:Mista-X">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Mista-X" title="Special:Contributions/Mista-X">contribs</a>) is going about claiming that <a href="/wiki/Joseph_Stalin" title="Joseph Stalin">Joseph Stalin</a> had nothing to do with the assassination of <a href="/wiki/Leon_Trotsky" title="Leon Trotsky">Leon Trotsky</a>. He does so by claiming there is "no evidence", though of course there is, and even the Soviet government acknowledged as much in the late 1980's. Mista-X has done this in the past, and been blocked for it, and he's at it again. I'd like extra eyes on the following articles, if possible: </p> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Ramon_Mercader" class="mw-redirect" title="Ramon Mercader">Ramon Mercader</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Joseph_Stalin" title="Joseph Stalin">Joseph Stalin</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Great_Purge" title="Great Purge">Great Purge</a></li></ul> <p>It would be nice if we keep Wikipedia at least as honest about Soviet history as the Soviet textbooks themselves were. <b><a href="/wiki/User:MastCell" title="User:MastCell">MastCell</a></b> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:MastCell" title="User talk:MastCell">Talk</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-MastCell-2008-05-08T22:17:00.000Z-Stalin_apologist" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:17, 8 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MastCell-2008-05-08T22:17:00.000Z-Stalin_apologist"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MastCell-2008-05-08T22:17:00.000Z-Stalin_apologist"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Relata_refero-2008-05-09T06:53:00.000Z-MastCell-2008-05-08T22:17:00.000Z"></span>He was framed, I tell you! He wouldn't have hurt a fly! He loved that man like a brother! --<span style="font-family:Georgia"><a href="/wiki/User:Relata_refero" title="User:Relata refero">Relata refero</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Relata_refero" title="User talk:Relata refero">disp.</a>)</span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Relata_refero-2008-05-09T06:53:00.000Z-MastCell-2008-05-08T22:17:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:53, 9 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Relata_refero-2008-05-09T06:53:00.000Z-MastCell-2008-05-08T22:17:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Relata_refero-2008-05-09T06:53:00.000Z-MastCell-2008-05-08T22:17:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moreschi-2008-05-09T13:00:00.000Z-Relata_refero-2008-05-09T06:53:00.000Z"></span>Extraordinary. I have these pages watchlisted anyway because of <a href="/wiki/User:Jacob_Peters" title="User:Jacob Peters">Jacob Peters</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jacob_Peters" title="User talk:Jacob Peters">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jacob_Peters" title="Special:Contributions/Jacob Peters">contribs</a>), but even Jakey never tried this particular stunt. Wow. <a href="/wiki/User:Moreschi" title="User:Moreschi">Moreschi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moreschi" title="User talk:Moreschi">talk</a>) (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Folantin/Userspace_Folantin5&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin5 (page does not exist)">debate</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Moreschi-2008-05-09T13:00:00.000Z-Relata_refero-2008-05-09T06:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:00, 9 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moreschi-2008-05-09T13:00:00.000Z-Relata_refero-2008-05-09T06:53:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moreschi-2008-05-09T13:00:00.000Z-Relata_refero-2008-05-09T06:53:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MastCell-2008-05-09T18:50:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-05-09T13:00:00.000Z"></span>I admit that I <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ram%C3%B3n_Mercader&diff=211129240&oldid=211107777">may have gone a bit overboard</a>... <b><a href="/wiki/User:MastCell" title="User:MastCell">MastCell</a></b> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:MastCell" title="User talk:MastCell">Talk</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-MastCell-2008-05-09T18:50:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-05-09T13:00:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:50, 9 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MastCell-2008-05-09T18:50:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-05-09T13:00:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MastCell-2008-05-09T18:50:00.000Z-Moreschi-2008-05-09T13:00:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Merzbow-2008-05-09T20:25:00.000Z-MastCell-2008-05-09T18:50:00.000Z"></span>On a side note, I notice that "dictator" is gone from the lead of the <a href="/wiki/Stalin" class="mw-redirect" title="Stalin">Stalin</a> article, sigh. Getting this removed was one of JP's pet obsessions. I'll have to look into this. - <a href="/wiki/User:Merzbow" title="User:Merzbow">Merzbow</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Merzbow" title="User talk:Merzbow">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Merzbow-2008-05-09T20:25:00.000Z-MastCell-2008-05-09T18:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Merzbow-2008-05-09T20:25:00.000Z-MastCell-2008-05-09T18:50:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Merzbow-2008-05-09T20:25:00.000Z-MastCell-2008-05-09T18:50:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Merzbow-2008-05-09T20:34:00.000Z-Merzbow-2008-05-09T20:25:00.000Z"></span>Restored "dictator" to <a href="/wiki/Stalin" class="mw-redirect" title="Stalin">Stalin</a>; I imagine this will come under heavy fire from SPAs, so eyes are appreciated. - <a href="/wiki/User:Merzbow" title="User:Merzbow">Merzbow</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Merzbow" title="User talk:Merzbow">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Merzbow-2008-05-09T20:34:00.000Z-Merzbow-2008-05-09T20:25:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:34, 9 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Merzbow-2008-05-09T20:34:00.000Z-Merzbow-2008-05-09T20:25:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Merzbow-2008-05-09T20:34:00.000Z-Merzbow-2008-05-09T20:25:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MastCell-2008-05-11T21:23:00.000Z-Merzbow-2008-05-09T20:34:00.000Z"></span>I should have watchlisted this page sooner - it's truly amazing. In <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Joseph_Stalin&diff=prev&oldid=211551285">this gem from the talk page</a>, an editor argues that Stalin should not be described as a "dictator" because "not a single Soviet historian" described him as such. <b><a href="/wiki/User:MastCell" title="User:MastCell">MastCell</a></b> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:MastCell" title="User talk:MastCell">Talk</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-MastCell-2008-05-11T21:23:00.000Z-Merzbow-2008-05-09T20:34:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:23, 11 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MastCell-2008-05-11T21:23:00.000Z-Merzbow-2008-05-09T20:34:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MastCell-2008-05-11T21:23:00.000Z-Merzbow-2008-05-09T20:34:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Merzbow-2008-05-13T04:16:00.000Z-MastCell-2008-05-11T21:23:00.000Z"></span>Welcome to the wild wacky world of <a href="/wiki/User:Jacob_Peters" title="User:Jacob Peters">Jacob Peters</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jacob_Peters" title="User talk:Jacob Peters">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jacob_Peters" title="Special:Contributions/Jacob Peters">contribs</a>), of whom that user is now an <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Jacob_Peters" title="Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Jacob Peters">RFCU-confirmed sock</a>. - <a href="/wiki/User:Merzbow" title="User:Merzbow">Merzbow</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Merzbow" title="User talk:Merzbow">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Merzbow-2008-05-13T04:16:00.000Z-MastCell-2008-05-11T21:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:16, 13 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Merzbow-2008-05-13T04:16:00.000Z-MastCell-2008-05-11T21:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Merzbow-2008-05-13T04:16:00.000Z-MastCell-2008-05-11T21:23:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MastCell-2008-05-13T05:10:00.000Z-Merzbow-2008-05-13T04:16:00.000Z"></span>I had a bit of experience with Jacob back in the day, but I have to admit he'd fallen off my sock radar. You'd think the fate of <a href="/wiki/Yakov_Peters" class="mw-redirect" title="Yakov Peters">his namesake</a> would be instructive enough, but I'm sure there's some revisionist explanation for it... <b><a href="/wiki/User:MastCell" title="User:MastCell">MastCell</a></b> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:MastCell" title="User talk:MastCell">Talk</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-MastCell-2008-05-13T05:10:00.000Z-Merzbow-2008-05-13T04:16:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MastCell-2008-05-13T05:10:00.000Z-Merzbow-2008-05-13T04:16:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MastCell-2008-05-13T05:10:00.000Z-Merzbow-2008-05-13T04:16:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Benjamin_Creme" data-mw-thread-id="h-Benjamin_Creme-2008-05-09T11:25:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Benjamin_Creme-2008-05-09T11:25:00.000Z"></span><a href="/wiki/Benjamin_Creme" title="Benjamin Creme">Benjamin Creme</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Benjamin_Creme-2008-05-09T11:25:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T11:25:00.000Z-Benjamin_Creme"></span>I had tagged this article <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Benjamin_Creme&diff=210090875&oldid=210034684">[46]</a>, but another editor who apparently thinks the article is well sourced and reasonable just removed the tag. last week I was able to get two forks from this article speedy deleted, on the grounds of blatant advertising, but I suppose they will soon be back...if they are not already. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">Malcolm Schosha</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T11:25:00.000Z-Benjamin_Creme" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T11:25:00.000Z-Benjamin_Creme"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T11:25:00.000Z-Benjamin_Creme"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T19:44:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T11:25:00.000Z"></span>Just as I suspected would happen, one of the two forks I had speedy deleted (for blatant advertising) is back: <a href="/wiki/Share_International" title="Share International">Share International</a>. I suppose the second will soon follow. Would an AfD solve the problem? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">Malcolm Schosha</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T19:44:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T11:25:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T19:44:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T11:25:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T19:44:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T11:25:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><br/> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andries-2008-05-09T22:15:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T11:25:00.000Z"></span>Malcolm Schosha, Why is this on this noticeboard? It is just a minor cult and presented as such in its own article. It is not presented as a scientific theory in another article. I believe you have chosen the wrong Wikipedia forum for your complaints. <a href="/wiki/User:Andries" title="User:Andries">Andries</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andries" title="User talk:Andries">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Andries-2008-05-09T22:15:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T11:25:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andries-2008-05-09T22:15:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T11:25:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andries-2008-05-09T22:15:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T11:25:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T22:34:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-09T22:15:00.000Z"></span>I put this information here because, even by New Age standards, Creme and Share International are on the fringe; and, particularly, because these articles violate many Wikipedia guidelines. The articles are unsourced, with unbalanced POV, and engage in blatant advertising which is not intended to inform, but to attract members to Creme's groups. If this has hurt your feelings, I am sorry; but this is about the articles, and is not about personalities. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">Malcolm Schosha</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T22:34:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-09T22:15:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:34, 9 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T22:34:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-09T22:15:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T22:34:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-09T22:15:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andries-2008-05-09T22:43:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T22:34:00.000Z"></span>Every article about each (minor) cult is fringe, but that is no problem as long as the the beliefs of the cults are not mentioned in other articles. Clearly not every cult should be discussed here. The right place to discuss your complaints are the talk pages of the respective articles. Not here. <a href="/wiki/User:Andries" title="User:Andries">Andries</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andries" title="User talk:Andries">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Andries-2008-05-09T22:43:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T22:34:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:43, 9 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andries-2008-05-09T22:43:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T22:34:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andries-2008-05-09T22:43:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T22:34:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T22:58:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-09T22:43:00.000Z"></span>Discussion of articles is allowed, even if you do not want your article discussed. But, if you think I have violated Wikipedia rules, you certainly have a right to make a complaint on the Administrators Notice Board. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">Malcolm Schosha</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T22:58:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-09T22:43:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:58, 9 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T22:58:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-09T22:43:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T22:58:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-09T22:43:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andries-2008-05-10T00:08:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T22:58:00.000Z"></span>Just try to be constructive and try to get the sources and list them on the respective talk pages. They do exist. <a href="/wiki/User:Andries" title="User:Andries">Andries</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andries" title="User talk:Andries">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Andries-2008-05-10T00:08:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T22:58:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:08, 10 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andries-2008-05-10T00:08:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T22:58:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andries-2008-05-10T00:08:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-09T22:58:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-10T15:44:00.000Z-Benjamin_Creme"></span>{unindent)It's fringe, so it's discussion is appropriate here. Andries is the (re)creator of the Share International article. --<a href="/wiki/User:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dougweller">Doug Weller</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Dougweller">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dougweller-2008-05-10T15:44:00.000Z-Benjamin_Creme" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:44, 10 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-10T15:44:00.000Z-Benjamin_Creme"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dougweller-2008-05-10T15:44:00.000Z-Benjamin_Creme"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andries-2008-05-10T15:58:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-10T15:44:00.000Z"></span>I do not think that I was the creator of the article before it was speedily deleted. With regards to the appropriateness of this forum, I think either you or I are completely mistaken. <a href="/wiki/User:Andries" title="User:Andries">Andries</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andries" title="User talk:Andries">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Andries-2008-05-10T15:58:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-10T15:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:58, 10 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andries-2008-05-10T15:58:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-10T15:44:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andries-2008-05-10T15:58:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-10T15:44:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-10T17:23:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-10T15:58:00.000Z"></span>You don't think you were? As for the appropriateness of this forum, you've asked that on the discussion page and had an answer.--<a href="/wiki/User:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dougweller">Doug Weller</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Dougweller">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dougweller-2008-05-10T17:23:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-10T15:58:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:23, 10 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-10T17:23:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-10T15:58:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dougweller-2008-05-10T17:23:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-10T15:58:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andries-2008-05-11T10:21:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-10T17:23:00.000Z"></span>No, I do not think that I was the creator of the article , but I am already editing Wikipedia for several years, so I may misremember. <a href="/wiki/User:Andries" title="User:Andries">Andries</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andries" title="User talk:Andries">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Andries-2008-05-11T10:21:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-10T17:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:21, 11 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andries-2008-05-11T10:21:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-10T17:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andries-2008-05-11T10:21:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-10T17:23:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-11T10:34:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-11T10:21:00.000Z"></span>You certainly created the article on Creme<a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Benjamin_Creme&oldid=4105422">[47]</a> - I have no idea about the deleted article.--<a href="/wiki/User:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dougweller">Doug Weller</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Dougweller">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dougweller-2008-05-11T10:34:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-11T10:21:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:34, 11 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-11T10:34:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-11T10:21:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dougweller-2008-05-11T10:34:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-11T10:21:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andries-2008-05-11T10:38:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-11T10:34:00.000Z"></span>Yes, of course, I remember that I re-created the article after it had been speedily deleted, but the original creator of the article cannot be determined anymore with certainty. <a href="/wiki/User:Andries" title="User:Andries">Andries</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andries" title="User talk:Andries">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Andries-2008-05-11T10:38:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-11T10:34:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:38, 11 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andries-2008-05-11T10:38:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-11T10:34:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andries-2008-05-11T10:38:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-11T10:34:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-11T11:43:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-11T10:38:00.000Z"></span>You certainly knew the <i>reason</i> that article was speedy deleted; because, you asked <a href="/wiki/User:Jimfbleak" title="User:Jimfbleak">Jimfbleak</a> (the administrator who deleted it) and he explained <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Andries#Share_International">[48]</a>. But you recreated it anyhow.<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">Malcolm Schosha</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-11T11:43:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-11T10:38:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:43, 11 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-11T11:43:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-11T10:38:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-11T11:43:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-11T10:38:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andries-2008-05-12T21:40:00.000Z-Benjamin_Creme"></span>Malcolm Schosha, I am still convinced that you are off-topic here. See <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Dispute_about_scope_of_Wikipedia:Fringe_theories.2FNoticeboard" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)">Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Dispute_about_scope_of_Wikipedia:Fringe_theories.2FNoticeboard</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Andries" title="User:Andries">Andries</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andries" title="User talk:Andries">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Andries-2008-05-12T21:40:00.000Z-Benjamin_Creme" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andries-2008-05-12T21:40:00.000Z-Benjamin_Creme"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andries-2008-05-12T21:40:00.000Z-Benjamin_Creme"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Share_International" data-mw-thread-id="h-Share_International-2008-05-12T20:34:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Share_International-2008-05-12T20:34:00.000Z"></span>Share International<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Share_International-2008-05-12T20:34:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T20:34:00.000Z-Share_International"></span>I see that <a href="/wiki/Share_International" title="Share International">Share International</a> has been nominated for deletion <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Share_International">[49]</a>. Anyone interested in the Benjamin Creme discussion (above), and on the talk page, might want to take a look and comment. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">Malcolm Schosha</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T20:34:00.000Z-Share_International" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:34, 12 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T20:34:00.000Z-Share_International"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T20:34:00.000Z-Share_International"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andries-2008-05-12T20:59:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T20:34:00.000Z"></span>You are off-topic here See <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Dispute_about_scope_of_Wikipedia:Fringe_theories.2FNoticeboard" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)">Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Dispute_about_scope_of_Wikipedia:Fringe_theories.2FNoticeboard</a><a href="/wiki/User:Andries" title="User:Andries">Andries</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andries" title="User talk:Andries">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Andries-2008-05-12T20:59:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T20:34:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:59, 12 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andries-2008-05-12T20:59:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T20:34:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andries-2008-05-12T20:59:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T20:34:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T21:59:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-12T20:59:00.000Z"></span>I see that you have linked three conversations here to the Village Pump. I also see that no one there has committed. What is your point? You want to move the conversation there? Good, because I would like to have as many users participate in the AfD as possible. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">Malcolm Schosha</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T21:59:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-12T20:59:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:59, 12 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T21:59:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-12T20:59:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T21:59:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-12T20:59:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andries-2008-05-12T22:02:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T21:59:00.000Z"></span>I have stated my point repeatedly explicitly and I have no hidden agenda: the discussion belongs on the talk pages of the respective articles and not here. <a href="/wiki/User:Andries" title="User:Andries">Andries</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andries" title="User talk:Andries">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Andries-2008-05-12T22:02:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T21:59:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:02, 12 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andries-2008-05-12T22:02:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T21:59:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andries-2008-05-12T22:02:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T21:59:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T22:20:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-12T22:02:00.000Z"></span>We discussed this on your user talk page [<a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Andries#Share_International">[50]</a>]. Why did you not object to that?</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>It seems to me that your intent is that a minimum number of people will see your articles because you understand that they are problematic. My own intent in these matters is to make disputes known to as many people as possible, and to obtain the maximum number of comments. That way, if I am mistaken, there is a better chance of getting corrected by users whose opinions I respect. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">Malcolm Schosha</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T22:20:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-12T22:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:20, 12 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T22:20:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-12T22:02:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T22:20:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-12T22:02:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andries-2008-05-12T22:23:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T22:20:00.000Z"></span>Now you fail to assume my good faith and more or less admit that you use this notice board for a purpose for which it is not intended. <a href="/wiki/User:Andries" title="User:Andries">Andries</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andries" title="User talk:Andries">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Andries-2008-05-12T22:23:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T22:20:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:23, 12 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andries-2008-05-12T22:23:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T22:20:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andries-2008-05-12T22:23:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T22:20:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Blueboar-2008-05-12T22:28:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-12T22:23:00.000Z"></span>Andries... I think your refusal to discuss things here is a bit like "locking the barn door after the horses have escaped". Whether you like it or not, the articles are <i>already</i> being discussed here. If you don't want to participate in that discussion, no one is going to force you to do so... but that would mean that your opinion on the articles will not be represented in the discussion. <a href="/wiki/User:Blueboar" title="User:Blueboar">Blueboar</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Blueboar" title="User talk:Blueboar">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Blueboar-2008-05-12T22:28:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-12T22:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:28, 12 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Blueboar-2008-05-12T22:28:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-12T22:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Blueboar-2008-05-12T22:28:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-12T22:23:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andries-2008-05-12T22:32:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-05-12T22:28:00.000Z"></span>I do try to address concerns (most of which are valid) on the respective talk page and the articles. <a href="/wiki/User:Andries" title="User:Andries">Andries</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andries" title="User talk:Andries">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Andries-2008-05-12T22:32:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-05-12T22:28:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:32, 12 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andries-2008-05-12T22:32:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-05-12T22:28:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andries-2008-05-12T22:32:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-05-12T22:28:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andries-2008-05-12T22:40:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-12T22:32:00.000Z"></span>I will start a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Cults,_sects,_and_new_religious_movements" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Cults, sects, and new religious movements">Wikipedia:WikiProject Cults, sects, and new religious movements</a>, to have a centralized discussion about these kind of issues. <a href="/wiki/User:Andries" title="User:Andries">Andries</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andries" title="User talk:Andries">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Andries-2008-05-12T22:40:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-12T22:32:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andries-2008-05-12T22:40:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-12T22:32:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andries-2008-05-12T22:40:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-12T22:32:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T22:46:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-12T22:40:00.000Z"></span>Bad faith? Rather it seems to be your assumption of bad faith, simply because we have discussed your article. You have accused us of bad faith here, and now on the Village Pump too. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">Malcolm Schosha</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T22:46:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-12T22:40:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T22:46:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-12T22:40:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T22:46:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-12T22:40:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andries-2008-05-12T22:58:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T22:46:00.000Z"></span>Feel free to discuss the articles here. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Cults,_sects,_and_new_religious_movements" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Cults, sects, and new religious movements">Wikipedia:WikiProject Cults, sects, and new religious movements</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Andries" title="User:Andries">Andries</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andries" title="User talk:Andries">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Andries-2008-05-12T22:58:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T22:46:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:58, 12 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andries-2008-05-12T22:58:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T22:46:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andries-2008-05-12T22:58:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T22:46:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Blueboar-2008-05-12T23:13:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-12T22:02:00.000Z"></span>Andries, if your goal is to tell people: "discuss the articles dealing with these topics at that project page and not on this noticeboard", you will be disappointed. We will continue to discuss <i>any</i> article with potential WP:FRINGE issues, if such issues are raised here. This includes articles on cults, sects, religious movements ... or <i>any</i> other topic. You see, the topic does not matter to us... what matters is whether the article has WP:FRINGE problems. <a href="/wiki/User:Blueboar" title="User:Blueboar">Blueboar</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Blueboar" title="User talk:Blueboar">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Blueboar-2008-05-12T23:13:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-12T22:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:13, 12 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Blueboar-2008-05-12T23:13:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-12T22:02:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Blueboar-2008-05-12T23:13:00.000Z-Andries-2008-05-12T22:02:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andries-2008-05-12T23:20:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-05-12T23:13:00.000Z"></span>What do you think that people would say if you discussed Christianity here merely because it contains unscientific ideas e.g. the resurrection. Then I think people would tell you to discuss it on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Christianity" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity">Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity</a>. And with very good reason. <a href="/wiki/User:Andries" title="User:Andries">Andries</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andries" title="User talk:Andries">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Andries-2008-05-12T23:20:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-05-12T23:13:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:20, 12 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andries-2008-05-12T23:20:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-05-12T23:13:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andries-2008-05-12T23:20:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-05-12T23:13:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andries-2008-05-12T23:33:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-05-12T23:13:00.000Z"></span>I do not object to articles on minor religious groups being discussed here and the discussion about <a href="/wiki/Prem_Rawat" title="Prem Rawat">Prem Rawat</a>/<a href="/wiki/Divine_Light_Mission" title="Divine Light Mission">Divine Light Mission</a> was on topic here because this <i>was</i> about balance issues. What I object to is that religious groups are discussed on this notice board merely because they are small and undersourced. 99% of Wikipedia is undersourced. <a href="/wiki/User:Andries" title="User:Andries">Andries</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andries" title="User talk:Andries">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Andries-2008-05-12T23:33:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-05-12T23:13:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:33, 12 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andries-2008-05-12T23:33:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-05-12T23:13:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andries-2008-05-12T23:33:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-05-12T23:13:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Blueboar-2008-05-13T00:11:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T21:59:00.000Z"></span>If <a href="/wiki/Christianity" title="Christianity">Christianity</a> had a problem with WP:FRINGE, I would certainly think that it could and <i>should</i> be raised here. The Resurrection, however, isn't a <i>Fringe</i> Theory (it is a belief held by millions and thus not "Fringe")... although I suppose there could be a Fringe Theory <i>about</i> the Resurrection that might qualify for discussion here (for example: a theory that after being crucified, Jesus was beamed up into a space ship by space aliens, or something).</dd> <dd>I think you misunderstand why the Share International article is being discussed here. WP:FRINGE says that to be notable, a Fringe theory (and I would include fringe religious beliefs in this category) has to have been discussed in a serious manner by the mainstream... there is no indication that this is the case. The article makes a passing reference to one obscure English journalist. What the article needs is reliable mainstream sources that discuss the group and its impact (whether positively, negatively, or neutrally). Another problem is with your statement that Share International is viewed as the Anti-Christ by a fundamentalist Christian group. That is a very Fringe view... one not held my the vast majority of fundamentalist Christians. Thus to mention it, you need very very solid sourcing and direct attribution in the article text to say who believes this.</dd> <dd>These are not the only problems with the article... in <i>addition</i> to the WP:FRINGE issues, there are NPOV issues as well as issues with WP:V and WP:RS. But those issues can and should be discussed at other noticeboards and policy talk pages. <a href="/wiki/User:Blueboar" title="User:Blueboar">Blueboar</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Blueboar" title="User talk:Blueboar">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Blueboar-2008-05-13T00:11:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T21:59:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:11, 13 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Blueboar-2008-05-13T00:11:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T21:59:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Blueboar-2008-05-13T00:11:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-12T21:59:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andries-2008-05-13T00:21:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-05-13T00:11:00.000Z"></span>By mainstream media or by relevant experts in the field who are in this case religious scholars who have discussed the subject. Thanks for explaining your reasoning regarding Christianity which I think is flawed. Clearly very important aspects of Christianity are fringe according to this noticeboard (contradicting scientific theories). The statement that <a href="/wiki/Benjamin_Creme" title="Benjamin Creme">Benjamin Creme</a> is part of satanic conspiracy according to several Evangelical Christian sources (I will mention the names in the footnotes) is well sourced to reputable sources (that do not agree with this allegation). <a href="/wiki/User:Andries" title="User:Andries">Andries</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andries" title="User talk:Andries">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Andries-2008-05-13T00:21:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-05-13T00:11:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:21, 13 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andries-2008-05-13T00:21:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-05-13T00:11:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andries-2008-05-13T00:21:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-05-13T00:11:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Watchlist" data-mw-thread-id="h-Watchlist-2008-05-13T00:27:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Watchlist-2008-05-13T00:27:00.000Z"></span>Watchlist<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Watchlist-2008-05-13T00:27:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-05-13T00:27:00.000Z-Watchlist"></span>Please watchlist <a href="/wiki/NAET" class="mw-redirect" title="NAET">NAET</a> and <a href="/wiki/Energy_medicine" title="Energy medicine">Energy medicine</a>, I just got these to some vague semblence of NPOV and Verifiability, and, well. <a href="/wiki/User:Shoemaker%27s_Holiday" title="User:Shoemaker's Holiday">Shoemaker's Holiday</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Shoemaker%27s_Holiday" title="User talk:Shoemaker's Holiday">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-05-13T00:27:00.000Z-Watchlist" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:27, 13 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-05-13T00:27:00.000Z-Watchlist"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-05-13T00:27:00.000Z-Watchlist"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Pseudohistory" data-mw-thread-id="h-Pseudohistory-2008-03-31T00:57:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Pseudohistory-2008-03-31T00:57:00.000Z"></span>Pseudohistory<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Pseudohistory-2008-03-31T00:57:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Blueboar-2008-03-31T00:57:00.000Z-Pseudohistory"></span>Those of us who regularly watch this page are quick to spot pseudoscience and label it as such. We are much slower off the mark as to pseudohistory (Probably more scientists watch this page than historians). In any case, a slow boil edit war (ie it changes back and forth about once a month) is going on at the article on <a href="/wiki/Robert_Lomas" title="Robert Lomas">Robert Lomas</a>, the author of "The Hyram Key" (basic premise for those not familiar with the book: The ancient Egyptians had ritual certain practices; The early Christians in Jerusalem followed these practices, and by the way Jesus did not die on the cross; Suppose they hid documents to this effect in the ruins of the Temple. The Knights Templars are said to have found something in the ruins of the Temple, therefore what they found <i>were</i> these documents. Since the Freemasons <i>might</i> be descendants of the Templars, the Masons are directly connected to the Ancient Egyptians.) To me this has so many suppositions and conjectures that it can only be called pseudohistory. However, attepts to categorize Lomas as a pseudohistorian and his label his work as pseudohistory are reverted. Note... the book was a best seller and helped inspire The DaVinci Code... so it is notable. Those of us arguing to call it pseudohistory are not attempting to delete the article... only to make it clear that this is not <i>history</i>. Some assistance by those who care about historical Fringe Theories is needed. <a href="/wiki/User:Blueboar" title="User:Blueboar">Blueboar</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Blueboar" title="User talk:Blueboar">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Blueboar-2008-03-31T00:57:00.000Z-Pseudohistory" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:57, 31 March 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Blueboar-2008-03-31T00:57:00.000Z-Pseudohistory"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Blueboar-2008-03-31T00:57:00.000Z-Pseudohistory"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-03-31T07:52:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-03-31T00:57:00.000Z"></span>I'm not sure if this is even pseudohistory. <a href="/wiki/Category:Fantasy_writers" title="Category:Fantasy writers">Category:Fantasy writers</a> may fit better. I mean, I do not hope anyone is suggesting any of this has anything to do with actual history. It may still be interesting as "<a href="/wiki/Alternate_history" title="Alternate history">alternate history</a>" literature. --<a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-03-31T07:52:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-03-31T00:57:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:52, 31 March 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-03-31T07:52:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-03-31T00:57:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-03-31T07:52:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-03-31T00:57:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Blueboar-2008-03-31T14:40:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-03-31T07:52:00.000Z"></span>This actually goes to a larger issue. Currently up for review at <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_March_26#Category:Historians_of_Freemasonry">CfD</a> is <a href="/w/index.php?title=Category:Historians_of_Freemasonry&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Category:Historians of Freemasonry (page does not exist)">Category:Historians of Freemasonry</a>. I don't really care whether the category is deleted or kept (I created it, but have agreed that it should probably be deleted based on the nomination's rational). However, since being nominated, there has been a flurry of activity... those who wish to keep the category have been adding it to articles on any author who has ever written something mentioning Freemasonry, be it speculative fiction, pseudohistory, or anti-Masonic rants and exposés. They are also adding it to anyone who wrote a legitimate history of something else... but who happen to include some passing discussion of Freemasonry while doing so. This bothers me. It gives legitimacy to the works and their authors. I have removed the categorization from most of the articles added, but in several cases I have been reverted (and I don't really want to get into an edit war). I suppose the underlying question is... what qualifies someone to be called a <i>historian</i>... and more specifically a "Historian of Freemasonry"? Advice would be appreciated (and feel free to comment at the CfD... no pressure to vote either way). <a href="/wiki/User:Blueboar" title="User:Blueboar">Blueboar</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Blueboar" title="User talk:Blueboar">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Blueboar-2008-03-31T14:40:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-03-31T07:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:40, 31 March 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Blueboar-2008-03-31T14:40:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-03-31T07:52:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Blueboar-2008-03-31T14:40:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-03-31T07:52:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-03-31T17:28:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-03-31T14:40:00.000Z"></span>we should only call a "historian" somebody with an academic degree in history who publishes academically (<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PROF" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PROF">WP:PROF</a>). Plus ancient historians like Herodotus of course. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-03-31T17:28:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-03-31T14:40:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:28, 31 March 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-03-31T17:28:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-03-31T14:40:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-03-31T17:28:00.000Z-Blueboar-2008-03-31T14:40:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SteveMcCluskey-2008-04-08T21:44:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-03-31T17:28:00.000Z"></span>I generally agree with dab, but here I think he's being too concerned with credentials. I'm a historian of science with an academic degree in it, but I know scientists who have published academically respectable historical studies about their discipline. I'd emphasize the places they've published as much as the formal credentials. <a href="/wiki/User:SteveMcCluskey" title="User:SteveMcCluskey">SteveMcCluskey</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SteveMcCluskey" title="User talk:SteveMcCluskey">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-SteveMcCluskey-2008-04-08T21:44:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-03-31T17:28:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:44, 8 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SteveMcCluskey-2008-04-08T21:44:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-03-31T17:28:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SteveMcCluskey-2008-04-08T21:44:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-03-31T17:28:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Paul_S-2008-05-06T16:13:00.000Z-Pseudohistory"></span>The <a href="/wiki/Cassi" title="Cassi">Cassi</a> article blithely states <i>By the 1st C AD, the Cassi had become known as the Catuvellauni (“Battle Superiors”).</i> and cites Daithi O Hogan's "The Celts: A History" as its source. The first problem is that this seems pure conjecture based on the name <i>Cassivellaunus</i> and the second is that I understand O Hogan is a folklorist rather than a historian and that his book has had some pretty savage reviews. Does anyone know any more? <a href="/wiki/User:Paul_S" title="User:Paul S">Paul S</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paul_S" title="User talk:Paul S">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Paul_S-2008-05-06T16:13:00.000Z-Pseudohistory" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:13, 6 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Paul_S-2008-05-06T16:13:00.000Z-Pseudohistory"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Paul_S-2008-05-06T16:13:00.000Z-Pseudohistory"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Til_Eulenspiegel-2008-05-06T16:55:00.000Z-Paul_S-2008-05-06T16:13:00.000Z"></span>I just now searched Google Books for "Cassi" and "Catuvellauni", and am immediately satisfied that historians have consistently connected the two for well over a hundred years. But, even if only O Hogan had said it, this page is not <a href="https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/" class="extiw" title="v:">Wikiversity</a>; all we do is attribute ideas to the source, not totally dissect them. <a href="/wiki/User:Til_Eulenspiegel" title="User:Til Eulenspiegel">Til Eulenspiegel</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Til_Eulenspiegel" title="User talk:Til Eulenspiegel">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Til_Eulenspiegel-2008-05-06T16:55:00.000Z-Paul_S-2008-05-06T16:13:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:55, 6 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Til_Eulenspiegel-2008-05-06T16:55:00.000Z-Paul_S-2008-05-06T16:13:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Til_Eulenspiegel-2008-05-06T16:55:00.000Z-Paul_S-2008-05-06T16:13:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Paul_S-2008-05-07T14:14:00.000Z-Til_Eulenspiegel-2008-05-06T16:55:00.000Z"></span>"Connected" is vague; can you be more specific? What we need to know is whether O hOgain's apparent assertion (and he is primarily a folklorist rather than a historian) is a <i>fringe theory</i>... I've heard it suggested on the basis of the name that <i>Cassivellaunus</i> was a member of the Cassi before, but never heard it put forward that the Cassi had <i>become</i> the Catuvellauni - in fact, that seems impossible because both are mentioned by Caesar. The only people I've heard tell this story are creators of the <i>Europa Barbarorum</i> mod for Rome: Total War. PsychoV is the forum nickname of one of them. Are fringe theories being promoted, or indeed are EB modders sneaking their fantasy history into Wikipedia? <a href="/wiki/User:Paul_S" title="User:Paul S">Paul S</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paul_S" title="User talk:Paul S">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Paul_S-2008-05-07T14:14:00.000Z-Til_Eulenspiegel-2008-05-06T16:55:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Paul_S-2008-05-07T14:14:00.000Z-Til_Eulenspiegel-2008-05-06T16:55:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Paul_S-2008-05-07T14:14:00.000Z-Til_Eulenspiegel-2008-05-06T16:55:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Til_Eulenspiegel-2008-05-07T14:23:00.000Z-Paul_S-2008-05-07T14:14:00.000Z"></span>I knew next to nothing about this, and have no opinion to push, but I was easily able to get answers to all these questions after reading a few of the Google Books pages I mentioned above. Why don't you try it? Again, we do have plenty of sources, and finding sources to attribute ideas to is our job, not dissecting them with our own 'expertise' and original counter-rebuttals, because this is an encyclopedia, not a university! <a href="/wiki/User:Til_Eulenspiegel" title="User:Til Eulenspiegel">Til Eulenspiegel</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Til_Eulenspiegel" title="User talk:Til Eulenspiegel">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Til_Eulenspiegel-2008-05-07T14:23:00.000Z-Paul_S-2008-05-07T14:14:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Til_Eulenspiegel-2008-05-07T14:23:00.000Z-Paul_S-2008-05-07T14:14:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Til_Eulenspiegel-2008-05-07T14:23:00.000Z-Paul_S-2008-05-07T14:14:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-07T14:31:00.000Z-Pseudohistory"></span>What is the relationship between the Cassi and the various Casses? And I am very suspicious of the translatins, such as 'Agile strikers'. As for the capital, see <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://books.google.com/books?id=-yd1huHoXJwC&pg=PA149&dq=Durocatalaunum&ei=jZchSKLEIae-ygSmmJjGDQ&client=firefox-a&sig=ztW7o3BnyUHAbVQ66MZg0ikDrC4">[51]</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p>And Catuvellauni “Battle Superiors” -- Google books shows up only Daithi O’Hogain, and Google scholar, nothing. And although I have nothing against Daithi O’Hogain, if he is the sole source, something seems wrong.--<a href="/wiki/User:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dougweller">Doug Weller</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Dougweller">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dougweller-2008-05-07T14:31:00.000Z-Pseudohistory" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:31, 7 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-07T14:31:00.000Z-Pseudohistory"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dougweller-2008-05-07T14:31:00.000Z-Pseudohistory"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Til_Eulenspiegel-2008-05-07T14:52:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-07T14:31:00.000Z"></span>Okay, I just now looked into that, and soon found that other historians (eg. Rhys) translate it as "Battle rulers", "War kings", "Battle princes" and similar... <a href="/wiki/User:Til_Eulenspiegel" title="User:Til Eulenspiegel">Til Eulenspiegel</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Til_Eulenspiegel" title="User talk:Til Eulenspiegel">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Til_Eulenspiegel-2008-05-07T14:52:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-07T14:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:52, 7 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Til_Eulenspiegel-2008-05-07T14:52:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-07T14:31:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Til_Eulenspiegel-2008-05-07T14:52:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-07T14:31:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Paul_S-2008-05-07T23:06:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-07T14:31:00.000Z"></span>My problem isn't with the rendering of Catuvellauni as "Battle Superiors" it's with the assertion that the Cassi became the Catuvellauni, not to mention the dubious linking of the British <i>Cassi</i> with the various Gaulish tribal names ending in <i>-casses</i> which is unsourced. Also - is O hOgain simply the source for the meaning of Catuvellauni or for the assertion that they used to be the Cassi? <a href="/wiki/User:Paul_S" title="User:Paul S">Paul S</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paul_S" title="User talk:Paul S">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Paul_S-2008-05-07T23:06:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-07T14:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:06, 7 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Paul_S-2008-05-07T23:06:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-07T14:31:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Paul_S-2008-05-07T23:06:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-07T14:31:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-13T10:02:00.000Z-Paul_S-2008-05-07T23:06:00.000Z"></span>And those claims are back. I agree entirely about the dubious linking of Cassi with casses, <s>and the question of any link between the Cassi and the Catuvellauni</s>. And I'll take Webster and Cunliffe any day over O'Hogain.--<a href="/wiki/User:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dougweller">Doug Weller</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Dougweller">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dougweller-2008-05-13T10:02:00.000Z-Paul_S-2008-05-07T23:06:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:02, 13 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-13T10:02:00.000Z-Paul_S-2008-05-07T23:06:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dougweller-2008-05-13T10:02:00.000Z-Paul_S-2008-05-07T23:06:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-13T12:04:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-13T10:02:00.000Z"></span>Found some sources for the Cassi-Catuvellauni link, mainly Keith Brannigan.--<a href="/wiki/User:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dougweller">Doug Weller</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dougweller" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Dougweller">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dougweller-2008-05-13T12:04:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-13T10:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:04, 13 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dougweller-2008-05-13T12:04:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-13T10:02:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dougweller-2008-05-13T12:04:00.000Z-Dougweller-2008-05-13T10:02:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd>And have now rewritten it. It turns out that Dáithí Ó hÓgáin doesn't mention the Cassi, I've put a link on the article's Talk page showing the page that Psycho referenced.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Anon_on_Heisenberg" data-mw-thread-id="h-Anon_on_Heisenberg-2008-05-13T14:14:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Anon_on_Heisenberg-2008-05-13T14:14:00.000Z"></span>Anon on Heisenberg<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Anon_on_Heisenberg-2008-05-13T14:14:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SteveMcCluskey-2008-05-13T14:14:00.000Z-Anon_on_Heisenberg"></span>A new anon <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:189.48.107.245&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:189.48.107.245 (page does not exist)">189.48.107.245</a> <span class="plainlinks">(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:189.48.107.245" title="User talk:189.48.107.245">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/189.48.107.245" title="Special:Contributions/189.48.107.245">contribs</a> <b>·</b> <a href="https://xtools.wmcloud.org/ec/en.wikipedia.org/189.48.107.245" class="extiw" title="xtools:ec/en.wikipedia.org/189.48.107.245">count</a>)</span> has arrived and posted the same lengthy and fairly incoherent discussion of Heisenberg: <a href="/wiki/Talk:History_and_philosophy_of_science#Heisenberg's_scientific_criterion" title="Talk:History and philosophy of science">Heisenberg's scientific criterion</a> on various talk pages touching on the philosophy and history of science. Does anyone know whether it's proper to just delete this material rather than keep it cluttering up the pages? --<a href="/wiki/User:SteveMcCluskey" title="User:SteveMcCluskey">SteveMcCluskey</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SteveMcCluskey" title="User talk:SteveMcCluskey">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-SteveMcCluskey-2008-05-13T14:14:00.000Z-Anon_on_Heisenberg" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:14, 13 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SteveMcCluskey-2008-05-13T14:14:00.000Z-Anon_on_Heisenberg"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SteveMcCluskey-2008-05-13T14:14:00.000Z-Anon_on_Heisenberg"></span> </p> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:TALK" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:TALK"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moreschi-2008-05-13T18:54:00.000Z-SteveMcCluskey-2008-05-13T14:14:00.000Z"></span>WP:TALK</a>. Removed. <a href="/wiki/User:Moreschi" title="User:Moreschi">Moreschi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moreschi" title="User talk:Moreschi">talk</a>) (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Folantin/Userspace_Folantin5&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin5 (page does not exist)">debate</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Moreschi-2008-05-13T18:54:00.000Z-SteveMcCluskey-2008-05-13T14:14:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:54, 13 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moreschi-2008-05-13T18:54:00.000Z-SteveMcCluskey-2008-05-13T14:14:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moreschi-2008-05-13T18:54:00.000Z-SteveMcCluskey-2008-05-13T14:14:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Rolfing" data-mw-thread-id="h-Rolfing-2008-05-14T05:28:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Rolfing-2008-05-14T05:28:00.000Z"></span><a href="/wiki/Rolfing" title="Rolfing">Rolfing</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Rolfing-2008-05-14T05:28:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-05-14T05:28:00.000Z-Rolfing"></span>Some sort of fringey massage, written almost entirely from promotional sources. <a href="/wiki/User:Shoemaker%27s_Holiday" title="User:Shoemaker's Holiday">Shoemaker's Holiday</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Shoemaker%27s_Holiday" title="User talk:Shoemaker's Holiday">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-05-14T05:28:00.000Z-Rolfing" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:28, 14 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-05-14T05:28:00.000Z-Rolfing"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-05-14T05:28:00.000Z-Rolfing"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SmithBlue-2008-05-14T05:58:00.000Z-Rolfing"></span>Added cites for science research. <a href="/wiki/User:SmithBlue" title="User:SmithBlue">SmithBlue</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SmithBlue" title="User talk:SmithBlue">talk</a>) 05:58, 14 May 2008 (UTC) And please strive for more accuracy with your template's reasons for deletion. Making mistakes like claiming <i>Myss, Caroline (1997). Why People Don't Heal and How They Can. Harmony Books. <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/0-60960-090-7" title="Special:BookSources/0-60960-090-7">0-60960-090-7</a></i> is not an RS on <a href="/w/index.php?title=Medical_Intuituive&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Medical Intuituive (page does not exist)">Medical Intuituive</a> when WP:NPOV clearly states "Minority views can receive attention on pages specifically devoted to them", and Myss' books are the "bibles" of MI, just makes all skeptics look like stupid biased fools. You want an accurate encyclopaedia? - well you model accuracy first. Throwing templates around as on <a href="/wiki/Feldenkrais" class="mw-redirect" title="Feldenkrais">Feldenkrais</a> and <a href="/wiki/Rolfing" title="Rolfing">Rolfing</a> just makes skeptics look like ill-informed fundamentalist apologists for the mainstream partyline. Skeptics need to be respected for their reasoning not for blind rejection of the new or differrent. <a href="/wiki/User:SmithBlue" title="User:SmithBlue">SmithBlue</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SmithBlue" title="User talk:SmithBlue">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-SmithBlue-2008-05-14T05:58:00.000Z-Rolfing" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SmithBlue-2008-05-14T05:58:00.000Z-Rolfing"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SmithBlue-2008-05-14T05:58:00.000Z-Rolfing"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mangoe-2008-05-14T19:13:00.000Z-SmithBlue-2008-05-14T05:58:00.000Z"></span>The AFD is bogonic, but the article stinks. <a href="/wiki/User:Mangoe" title="User:Mangoe">Mangoe</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mangoe" title="User talk:Mangoe">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Mangoe-2008-05-14T19:13:00.000Z-SmithBlue-2008-05-14T05:58:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mangoe-2008-05-14T19:13:00.000Z-SmithBlue-2008-05-14T05:58:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mangoe-2008-05-14T19:13:00.000Z-SmithBlue-2008-05-14T05:58:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Glossary_of_alternative_medicine" data-mw-thread-id="h-Glossary_of_alternative_medicine-2008-05-15T03:22:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Glossary_of_alternative_medicine-2008-05-15T03:22:00.000Z"></span><a href="/wiki/Glossary_of_alternative_medicine" class="mw-redirect" title="Glossary of alternative medicine">Glossary_of_alternative_medicine</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Glossary_of_alternative_medicine-2008-05-15T03:22:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-05-15T03:22:00.000Z-Glossary_of_alternative_medicine"></span>It would be nice if we could get this made NPOV, etc. Then we could upmerge some of the tiny-altmed to it. <a href="/wiki/User:Shoemaker%27s_Holiday" title="User:Shoemaker's Holiday">Shoemaker's Holiday</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Shoemaker%27s_Holiday" title="User talk:Shoemaker's Holiday">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-05-15T03:22:00.000Z-Glossary_of_alternative_medicine" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:22, 15 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-05-15T03:22:00.000Z-Glossary_of_alternative_medicine"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-05-15T03:22:00.000Z-Glossary_of_alternative_medicine"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Lymphedema" data-mw-thread-id="h-Lymphedema-2008-05-15T03:34:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Lymphedema-2008-05-15T03:34:00.000Z"></span><a href="/wiki/Lymphedema" title="Lymphedema">Lymphedema</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Lymphedema-2008-05-15T03:34:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-05-15T03:34:00.000Z-Lymphedema"></span>Written like an advertisement [in parts] - I've removed the worst bits, but it <i>really</i> needs an expert to check it over. <a href="/wiki/User:Shoemaker%27s_Holiday" title="User:Shoemaker's Holiday">Shoemaker's Holiday</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Shoemaker%27s_Holiday" title="User talk:Shoemaker's Holiday">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-05-15T03:34:00.000Z-Lymphedema" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:34, 15 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-05-15T03:34:00.000Z-Lymphedema"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-05-15T03:34:00.000Z-Lymphedema"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Energy_(spirituality)" data-mw-thread-id="h-Energy_(spirituality)-2008-05-14T18:06:00.000Z"><span id="Energy_.28spirituality.29"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Energy_(spirituality)-2008-05-14T18:06:00.000Z"></span><a href="/wiki/Energy_(spirituality)" class="mw-redirect" title="Energy (spirituality)">Energy (spirituality)</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Energy_(spirituality)-2008-05-14T18:06:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-14T18:06:00.000Z-Energy_(spirituality)"></span>This is an article that has recently been completely rewritten by one editor. There seem to be some problems with it, including that it mostly discusses energy healing, a subject not necessarily indicated by its name and introduction. I would appreciate it if some editors would take a look at it; because, perhaps, my uneasiness about it is unjustified. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">Malcolm Schosha</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-14T18:06:00.000Z-Energy_(spirituality)" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:06, 14 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-14T18:06:00.000Z-Energy_(spirituality)"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-14T18:06:00.000Z-Energy_(spirituality)"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-14T18:23:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-14T18:06:00.000Z"></span>this is quite bad. Should at best be a disambiguation page. Essentially touts "<a href="/wiki/Energy_medicine" title="Energy medicine">energy medicine</a>". <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-05-14T18:23:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-14T18:06:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:23, 14 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-14T18:23:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-14T18:06:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-14T18:23:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-14T18:06:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mangoe-2008-05-14T19:19:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-14T18:23:00.000Z"></span>I suggest reversion to this version of 16 March: <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Energy_%28spirituality%29&oldid=198561075">[52]</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Mangoe" title="User:Mangoe">Mangoe</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mangoe" title="User talk:Mangoe">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Mangoe-2008-05-14T19:19:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-14T18:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mangoe-2008-05-14T19:19:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-14T18:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mangoe-2008-05-14T19:19:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-14T18:23:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-05-14T19:22:00.000Z-Mangoe-2008-05-14T19:19:00.000Z"></span>That version is still highly problematic given the amount of OR in the listing of supposedly related concepts from all over the globe and all historical periods. Surely there must be some serious research somewhere into the development of these New Age ideas. <a href="/wiki/User:Itsmejudith" title="User:Itsmejudith">Itsmejudith</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Itsmejudith" title="User talk:Itsmejudith">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Itsmejudith-2008-05-14T19:22:00.000Z-Mangoe-2008-05-14T19:19:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-05-14T19:22:00.000Z-Mangoe-2008-05-14T19:19:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Itsmejudith-2008-05-14T19:22:00.000Z-Mangoe-2008-05-14T19:19:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-14T20:04:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-05-14T19:22:00.000Z"></span>"The aura of wellness: Subtle-energy healing and new age religion," available on JSTOR, may be useful. It's an overview of the history and beliefs of energy healers, written from a skeptical perspective. --<b><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:AnotherSolipsist&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:AnotherSolipsist (page does not exist)">AnotherSolipsist</a></b> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:AnotherSolipsist&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:AnotherSolipsist (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-14T20:04:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-05-14T19:22:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:04, 14 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-14T20:04:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-05-14T19:22:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-14T20:04:00.000Z-Itsmejudith-2008-05-14T19:22:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nealparr-2008-05-14T20:37:00.000Z-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-14T20:04:00.000Z"></span>What's there now is <a href="/wiki/New_Age" title="New Age">New Age</a>, but spiritual energy isn't a New Age concept. <a href="/wiki/Prana" title="Prana">Prana</a> and <a href="/wiki/Qi" title="Qi">Qi</a> (among others) date way back, centuries back. I too suggest taking the article to the version (hopefully there's a version in there somewhere) where it actually talked about spirituality instead of this pseudo-medicine stuff that's there now. Spiritual energy isn't about health, it's about enlightenment. Eg. the purpose of <a href="/wiki/Yoga" title="Yoga">yoga</a> is to direct <a href="/wiki/Prana" title="Prana">prana</a> through <a href="/wiki/Nadis" class="mw-redirect" title="Nadis">nadis</a> to activate <a href="/wiki/Chakras" class="mw-redirect" title="Chakras">chakras</a>, each of which is supposed to then give you new spiritual insight. It's been adopted as "exercise", but it's a form of <a href="/wiki/Meditation" title="Meditation">meditation</a>. Sure, there's supposed to be some health benefits to it, but that's not the goal of the practice. It shouldn't be framed as medicine, especially since mainstream medicine rejects it. To the religious practitioners it doesn't matter if it's scientifically relevant because the goals are spiritual, and that's how it should be framed. What's in the article now confuses all of that. --<b><a href="/wiki/User:Nealparr" title="User:Nealparr"><span style="color:#000">Nealparr</span></a></b> <sup>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nealparr" title="User talk:Nealparr">talk to me</a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Nealparr-2008-05-14T20:37:00.000Z-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-14T20:04:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:37, 14 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nealparr-2008-05-14T20:37:00.000Z-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-14T20:04:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nealparr-2008-05-14T20:37:00.000Z-AnotherSolipsist-2008-05-14T20:04:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T05:33:00.000Z-Energy_(spirituality)"></span>"<a href="/wiki/Prana" title="Prana">Prana</a> and <a href="/wiki/Qi" title="Qi">Qi</a> (among others)" have their own articles. The article is pure <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SYN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SYN">WP:SYN</a>. Unless an identifiable concept of "spiritual energy" can be referenced to some RS, I suggest this page should be a disambiguation page, or redirect to <a href="/wiki/Energy_(disambiguation)" class="mw-disambig" title="Energy (disambiguation)">Energy (disambiguation)</a>. You cannot google "energy" and then cobble together the results into a single article. "Energy" is too common a word for that. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T05:33:00.000Z-Energy_(spirituality)" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T05:33:00.000Z-Energy_(spirituality)"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T05:33:00.000Z-Energy_(spirituality)"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nealparr-2008-05-15T06:04:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T05:33:00.000Z"></span>I agree, the article is crap. What I was saying is that it's a notable concept that the article doesn't do justice. I think a disambig page would be a good way to fix it. That'd be preferable to a redirect to <a href="/wiki/Energy_(disambiguation)" class="mw-disambig" title="Energy (disambiguation)">Energy (disambiguation)</a>, which doesn't really have anything related to the topic (hence why it's linked <i>off</i> that page). Alternatively, there are identifiable concepts of spiritual energy that can be described in an article without synthesis, and without the New Age spin. Google Scholar has quite a few sources on the topic <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=spiritual+energy">[53]</a>. Presumably there's enough reliable sources there to write about it. I'd either find someone to rewrite it completely as an article about the concept <i>in spirituality</i>, or disambig it with links to the various notable cultural forms of "spiritual energy". In Eastern mysticism there's plenty to work with. Note that I'm talking spirituality here, not medicine. Not necessarily mutually exclusive views, but definitely <i>different</i> views of the topic. The former isn't fringe where the latter is. --<b><a href="/wiki/User:Nealparr" title="User:Nealparr"><span style="color:#000">Nealparr</span></a></b> <sup>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nealparr" title="User talk:Nealparr">talk to me</a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Nealparr-2008-05-15T06:04:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T05:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:04, 15 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nealparr-2008-05-15T06:04:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T05:33:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nealparr-2008-05-15T06:04:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T05:33:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-05-15T05:36:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T05:33:00.000Z"></span>I'm not sure. Obviously, it may be useful to synthesise common alt-med ideas - provided others have done so first. Someone mentioned a JSTOR article, I'll check that later, and see if we can make a coherent page out of it. <a href="/wiki/User:Shoemaker%27s_Holiday" title="User:Shoemaker's Holiday">Shoemaker's Holiday</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Shoemaker%27s_Holiday" title="User talk:Shoemaker's Holiday">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-05-15T05:36:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T05:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:36, 15 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-05-15T05:36:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T05:33:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Shoemaker's_Holiday-2008-05-15T05:36:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T05:33:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-15T11:27:00.000Z-Energy_(spirituality)"></span>Taking the suggestion of Itsmejudith, I have been looking through some of the earliest versions of the article. Of the one I have so far looked at this one <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Energy_%28spirituality%29&diff=64421066&oldid=64420935">[54]</a> seems the most balanced and neutral. Perhaps going back to this version would be a good new start for the article. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">Malcolm Schosha</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-15T11:27:00.000Z-Energy_(spirituality)" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:27, 15 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-15T11:27:00.000Z-Energy_(spirituality)"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-15T11:27:00.000Z-Energy_(spirituality)"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T11:34:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-15T11:27:00.000Z"></span>what we need is not "Energy (spirituality)" but "Energy (<b>one specific school of thought</b>)". Viz., it needs further disambiguation. On what grounds do we distinguish "Energy (spiritual)" from "<a href="/wiki/Energy_(psychological)" title="Energy (psychological)">Energy (psychological)</a>"? What <i>kind</i> of "spirituality"? New Age? Christian? Spiritist? This will not make any sense. The present version, and even the dated version linked by Malcolm, appears to take for granted we are talking about New Age pop-spirituality. If so --- fine, but move it to <a href="/w/index.php?title=Energy_(New_Age)&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Energy (New Age) (page does not exist)">Energy (New Age)</a> if that's what it's going to be about. --<a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T11:34:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-15T11:27:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:34, 15 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T11:34:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-15T11:27:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T11:34:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-15T11:27:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T11:40:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T11:34:00.000Z"></span>PS, I note de-wiki has <a href="https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energie_(Esoterik)" class="extiw" title="de:Energie (Esoterik)">de:Energie (Esoterik)</a>. That would make sense. The German page is also essentially a list of individual concepts in esotericism. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T11:40:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T11:34:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:40, 15 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T11:40:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T11:34:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T11:40:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T11:34:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-15T11:52:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T11:40:00.000Z"></span>A fundamental problem with the article is that it links; the words "energy" and "spiritual". In many core New Age teachings (such as Theosophy and the books of Alice Bailey), energy at the level the article talks about is not spiritual at all, but just a slightly higher aspect of the physical body. It might be called subtle energy, but not spiritual -- which in Theosophical Society literature refers to much higher levels. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">Malcolm Schosha</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Malcolm_Schosha&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Malcolm Schosha (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-15T11:52:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T11:40:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:52, 15 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-15T11:52:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T11:40:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-15T11:52:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T11:40:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T12:11:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-15T11:52:00.000Z"></span>I don't know why the article talks about New Age in the first place. "spiritual energy" is a perfectly valid topic in lots of religions and philosophical systems, and there is no reason why the article should lose itself in esotericist blogcruft (<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WEIGHT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:WEIGHT">WP:WEIGHT</a>). --<a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T12:11:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-15T11:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T12:11:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-15T11:52:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T12:11:00.000Z-Malcolm_Schosha-2008-05-15T11:52:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T12:08:00.000Z-Energy_(spirituality)"></span>case in point, <i><a href="/wiki/Actus_et_potentia" class="mw-redirect" title="Actus et potentia">actus</a></i> is also "spiritual energy" (<i>energeia</i>), but far from being a topic of soft-headed esotericist blather, it is a perfectly respectable topic in philosophy. <a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T12:08:00.000Z-Energy_(spirituality)" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T12:08:00.000Z-Energy_(spirituality)"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T12:08:00.000Z-Energy_(spirituality)"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T12:40:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T12:08:00.000Z"></span>ok, I've fixed it according to my gist above. Let's see how it fares. --<a href="/wiki/User:Dbachmann" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dbachmann">dab</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dbachmann" title="User talk:Dbachmann">(𒁳)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T12:40:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T12:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:40, 15 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T12:40:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T12:08:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T12:40:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T12:08:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-05-15T14:09:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T12:40:00.000Z"></span>I made a change in relation to acupuncture, still unsourced unfortunately, that takes into account that not everyone sees it in terms of spiritual energy. <a href="/wiki/User:Itsmejudith" title="User:Itsmejudith">Itsmejudith</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Itsmejudith" title="User talk:Itsmejudith">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5#c-Itsmejudith-2008-05-15T14:09:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T12:40:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:09, 15 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Itsmejudith-2008-05-15T14:09:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T12:40:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Itsmejudith-2008-05-15T14:09:00.000Z-Dbachmann-2008-05-15T12:40:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-references-wrap mw-references-columns"><ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-1"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-1">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFDuBois,_Ellen_Carol1999" class="citation book cs1">DuBois, Ellen Carol (1999). <i>Feminism and suffrage: the emergence of an independent women's movement in America, 1848-1869</i>. Ithaca, N.Y.: Cornell University Press. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/0-8014-8641-6" title="Special:BookSources/0-8014-8641-6"><bdi>0-8014-8641-6</bdi></a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Feminism+and+suffrage%3A+the+emergence+of+an+independent+women%27s+movement+in+America%2C+1848-1869&rft.place=Ithaca%2C+N.Y.&rft.pub=Cornell+University+Press&rft.date=1999&rft.isbn=0-8014-8641-6&rft.au=DuBois%2C+Ellen+Carol&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia%3AFringe+theories%2FNoticeboard%2FArchive+5" class="Z3988"></span> <span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment"><code class="cs1-code">{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_book" title="Template:Cite book">cite book</a>}}</code>: </span><span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment">Cite has empty unknown parameter: <code class="cs1-code">|coauthors=</code> (<a href="/wiki/Help:CS1_errors#param_unknown_empty" title="Help:CS1 errors">help</a>)</span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-2"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-2">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFSmith,_Harold_Eugene1990" class="citation book cs1">Smith, Harold Eugene (1990). <i>British feminism in the twentieth century</i>. Amherst: University of Massachusetts Press. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/0-87023-705-5" title="Special:BookSources/0-87023-705-5"><bdi>0-87023-705-5</bdi></a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=British+feminism+in+the+twentieth+century&rft.place=Amherst&rft.pub=University+of+Massachusetts+Press&rft.date=1990&rft.isbn=0-87023-705-5&rft.au=Smith%2C+Harold+Eugene&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia%3AFringe+theories%2FNoticeboard%2FArchive+5" class="Z3988"></span> <span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment"><code class="cs1-code">{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_book" title="Template:Cite book">cite book</a>}}</code>: </span><span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment">Cite has empty unknown parameter: <code class="cs1-code">|coauthors=</code> (<a href="/wiki/Help:CS1_errors#param_unknown_empty" title="Help:CS1 errors">help</a>)</span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-3"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-3">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFWhitney,_Sharon1984" class="citation book cs1">Whitney, Sharon (1984). <i>The equal rights amendment: the history and the movement</i>. New York: F. Watts. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/0-531-04768-7" title="Special:BookSources/0-531-04768-7"><bdi>0-531-04768-7</bdi></a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=The+equal+rights+amendment%3A+the+history+and+the+movement&rft.place=New+York&rft.pub=F.+Watts&rft.date=1984&rft.isbn=0-531-04768-7&rft.au=Whitney%2C+Sharon&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia%3AFringe+theories%2FNoticeboard%2FArchive+5" class="Z3988"></span> <span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment"><code class="cs1-code">{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_book" title="Template:Cite book">cite book</a>}}</code>: </span><span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment">Cite has empty unknown parameter: <code class="cs1-code">|coauthors=</code> (<a href="/wiki/Help:CS1_errors#param_unknown_empty" title="Help:CS1 errors">help</a>)</span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-4"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-4">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFVoet,_Maria_Christine_Bernadetta1998" class="citation book cs1">Voet, Maria Christine Bernadetta (1998). <i>Feminism and citizenship</i>. London: Sage Publications. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/0-7619-5860-6" title="Special:BookSources/0-7619-5860-6"><bdi>0-7619-5860-6</bdi></a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Feminism+and+citizenship&rft.place=London&rft.pub=Sage+Publications&rft.date=1998&rft.isbn=0-7619-5860-6&rft.au=Voet%2C+Maria+Christine+Bernadetta&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia%3AFringe+theories%2FNoticeboard%2FArchive+5" class="Z3988"></span> <span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment"><code class="cs1-code">{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_book" title="Template:Cite book">cite book</a>}}</code>: </span><span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment">Cite has empty unknown parameter: <code class="cs1-code">|coauthors=</code> (<a href="/wiki/Help:CS1_errors#param_unknown_empty" title="Help:CS1 errors">help</a>)</span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-5"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-5">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFBuechler,_Steven_M.1990" class="citation book cs1">Buechler, Steven M. (1990). <i>Women's movements in the United States: woman suffrage, equal rights, and beyond</i>. New Brunswick: Rutgers University Press. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/0-8135-1558-0" title="Special:BookSources/0-8135-1558-0"><bdi>0-8135-1558-0</bdi></a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Women%27s+movements+in+the+United+States%3A+woman+suffrage%2C+equal+rights%2C+and+beyond&rft.place=New+Brunswick&rft.pub=Rutgers+University+Press&rft.date=1990&rft.isbn=0-8135-1558-0&rft.au=Buechler%2C+Steven+M.&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia%3AFringe+theories%2FNoticeboard%2FArchive+5" class="Z3988"></span> <span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment"><code class="cs1-code">{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_book" title="Template:Cite book">cite book</a>}}</code>: </span><span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment">Cite has empty unknown parameter: <code class="cs1-code">|coauthors=</code> (<a href="/wiki/Help:CS1_errors#param_unknown_empty" title="Help:CS1 errors">help</a>)</span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-6"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-6">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFChapman,_Jenny_L.1993" class="citation book cs1">Chapman, Jenny L. (1993). <i>Politics, feminism, and the reformation of gender</i>. London: Routledge. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/0-415-01698-3" title="Special:BookSources/0-415-01698-3"><bdi>0-415-01698-3</bdi></a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Politics%2C+feminism%2C+and+the+reformation+of+gender&rft.place=London&rft.pub=Routledge&rft.date=1993&rft.isbn=0-415-01698-3&rft.au=Chapman%2C+Jenny+L.&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia%3AFringe+theories%2FNoticeboard%2FArchive+5" class="Z3988"></span> <span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment"><code class="cs1-code">{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_book" title="Template:Cite book">cite book</a>}}</code>: </span><span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment">Cite has empty unknown parameter: <code class="cs1-code">|coauthors=</code> (<a href="/wiki/Help:CS1_errors#param_unknown_empty" title="Help:CS1 errors">help</a>)</span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-7"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-7">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.ksgv.nl/KSGV_doelstelling.html">KSGV: Objectives</a><br/><i>"Het KSGV onderneemt zijn activiteiten vanuit een christelijke inspiratie."</i></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-8"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-8">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">Lans, Jan van der (Dutch language) <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.ksgv.nl/2-18.html"><i>Volgelingen van de goeroe: Hedendaagse religieuze bewegingen in Nederland</i></a> page 117, written upon request for the <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.ksgv.nl/KSGV_English.html">KSGV</a> published by Ambo, Baarn, <a href="/wiki/1981" title="1981">1981</a> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/90-263-0521-4" title="Special:BookSources/90-263-0521-4">90-263-0521-4</a></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-9"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-9">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">"MOTHER OUSTS 'PLAYBOY' GURU" Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File); Apr 2, 1975; pg. 6A</span> </li> <li id="cite_note-10"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-10">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">"FIRM LOYALTY" MARK FORSTER Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File); Jan 12, 1979; pg. A1</span> </li> <li id="cite_note-11"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-11">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">"Soe feel the youth is a fraud" <i>Long Beach Press Telepgram</i>, Dec 10, 1972, p. A27</span> </li> <li id="cite_note-12"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-12">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">"There are many evaluations of Guru Maharaj Ji" September 26, 1973, <i>Greeley Tribune</i> (Colorado) p. 5-A</span> </li> <li id="cite_note-13"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-13">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">Time Magazine, 2 November, 1972. "Junior Guru"</span> </li> </ol></div>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5&oldid=1142598523">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5&oldid=1142598523</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks catlinks-allhidden" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-hidden-catlinks" class="mw-hidden-catlinks mw-hidden-cats-hidden">Hidden category: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Noindexed_pages" title="Category:Noindexed pages">Noindexed pages</a></li></ul></div></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 3 March 2023, at 09:01<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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