CINXE.COM

<!DOCTYPE html> <html class="client-nojs vector-feature-language-in-header-enabled vector-feature-language-in-main-page-header-disabled vector-feature-sticky-header-disabled vector-feature-page-tools-pinned-disabled vector-feature-toc-pinned-clientpref-1 vector-feature-main-menu-pinned-disabled vector-feature-limited-width-clientpref-1 vector-feature-limited-width-content-disabled vector-feature-custom-font-size-clientpref-1 vector-feature-appearance-pinned-clientpref-1 vector-feature-night-mode-enabled skin-theme-clientpref-day vector-toc-not-available" lang="en" dir="ltr"> <head> <meta charset="UTF-8"> <title>View source for Talk:Clipper - Wikipedia</title> <script>(function(){var className="client-js vector-feature-language-in-header-enabled vector-feature-language-in-main-page-header-disabled vector-feature-sticky-header-disabled vector-feature-page-tools-pinned-disabled vector-feature-toc-pinned-clientpref-1 vector-feature-main-menu-pinned-disabled vector-feature-limited-width-clientpref-1 vector-feature-limited-width-content-disabled vector-feature-custom-font-size-clientpref-1 vector-feature-appearance-pinned-clientpref-1 vector-feature-night-mode-enabled skin-theme-clientpref-day vector-toc-not-available";var cookie=document.cookie.match(/(?:^|; )enwikimwclientpreferences=([^;]+)/);if(cookie){cookie[1].split('%2C').forEach(function(pref){className=className.replace(new RegExp('(^| )'+pref.replace(/-clientpref-\w+$|[^\w-]+/g,'')+'-clientpref-\\w+( |$)'),'$1'+pref+'$2');});}document.documentElement.className=className;}());RLCONF={"wgBreakFrames":true,"wgSeparatorTransformTable":["",""],"wgDigitTransformTable":["",""],"wgDefaultDateFormat": "dmy","wgMonthNames":["","January","February","March","April","May","June","July","August","September","October","November","December"],"wgRequestId":"952034c7-f27f-4455-80db-0dc1253a5af2","wgCanonicalNamespace":"Talk","wgCanonicalSpecialPageName":false,"wgNamespaceNumber":1,"wgPageName":"Talk:Clipper","wgTitle":"Clipper","wgCurRevisionId":1213613717,"wgRevisionId":0,"wgArticleId":1480234,"wgIsArticle":false,"wgIsRedirect":false,"wgAction":"edit","wgUserName":null,"wgUserGroups":["*"],"wgCategories":[],"wgPageViewLanguage":"en","wgPageContentLanguage":"en","wgPageContentModel":"wikitext","wgRelevantPageName":"Talk:Clipper","wgRelevantArticleId":1480234,"wgIsProbablyEditable":true,"wgRelevantPageIsProbablyEditable":true,"wgRestrictionEdit":[],"wgRestrictionMove":[],"wgNoticeProject":"wikipedia","wgCiteReferencePreviewsActive":false,"wgFlaggedRevsParams":{"tags":{"status":{"levels":1}}},"wgMediaViewerOnClick":true,"wgMediaViewerEnabledByDefault":true,"wgPopupsFlags":0,"wgVisualEditor":{ "pageLanguageCode":"en","pageLanguageDir":"ltr","pageVariantFallbacks":"en"},"wgMFDisplayWikibaseDescriptions":{"search":true,"watchlist":true,"tagline":false,"nearby":true},"wgWMESchemaEditAttemptStepOversample":false,"wgWMEPageLength":60000,"wgRelatedArticlesCompat":[],"wgCentralAuthMobileDomain":false,"wgEditSubmitButtonLabelPublish":true,"wgDiscussionToolsFeaturesEnabled":{"replytool":true,"newtopictool":true,"sourcemodetoolbar":true,"topicsubscription":false,"autotopicsub":false,"visualenhancements":false,"visualenhancements_reply":false,"visualenhancements_pageframe":false},"wgDiscussionToolsFallbackEditMode":"source","wgULSPosition":"interlanguage","wgULSisCompactLinksEnabled":false,"wgVector2022LanguageInHeader":true,"wgULSisLanguageSelectorEmpty":true,"wgCheckUserClientHintsHeadersJsApi":["brands","architecture","bitness","fullVersionList","mobile","model","platform","platformVersion"],"GEHomepageSuggestedEditsEnableTopics":true,"wgGETopicsMatchModeEnabled":false, "wgGEStructuredTaskRejectionReasonTextInputEnabled":false,"wgGELevelingUpEnabledForUser":false};RLSTATE={"ext.globalCssJs.user.styles":"ready","site.styles":"ready","user.styles":"ready","ext.globalCssJs.user":"ready","user":"ready","user.options":"loading","oojs-ui-core.styles":"ready","oojs-ui.styles.indicators":"ready","mediawiki.widgets.styles":"ready","oojs-ui-core.icons":"ready","skins.vector.search.codex.styles":"ready","skins.vector.styles":"ready","skins.vector.icons":"ready","jquery.makeCollapsible.styles":"ready","ext.charinsert.styles":"ready","ext.wikimediamessages.styles":"ready","ext.visualEditor.desktopArticleTarget.noscript":"ready","ext.discussionTools.init.styles":"ready","ext.uls.interlanguage":"ready","ext.wikimediaBadges":"ready"};RLPAGEMODULES=["mediawiki.action.edit.collapsibleFooter","site","mediawiki.page.ready","jquery.makeCollapsible","skins.vector.js","ext.centralNotice.geoIP","ext.charinsert","ext.gadget.ReferenceTooltips","ext.gadget.charinsert", "ext.gadget.extra-toolbar-buttons","ext.gadget.refToolbar","ext.gadget.switcher","ext.urlShortener.toolbar","ext.centralauth.centralautologin","mmv.bootstrap","ext.popups","ext.visualEditor.desktopArticleTarget.init","ext.visualEditor.targetLoader","ext.echo.centralauth","ext.discussionTools.init","ext.eventLogging","ext.wikimediaEvents","ext.navigationTiming","ext.uls.interface","ext.cx.eventlogging.campaigns","ext.checkUser.clientHints","ext.growthExperiments.SuggestedEditSession"];</script> <script>(RLQ=window.RLQ||[]).push(function(){mw.loader.impl(function(){return["user.options@12s5i",function($,jQuery,require,module){mw.user.tokens.set({"patrolToken":"+\\","watchToken":"+\\","csrfToken":"+\\"}); }];});});</script> <link rel="stylesheet" href="/w/load.php?lang=en&modules=ext.charinsert.styles%7Cext.discussionTools.init.styles%7Cext.uls.interlanguage%7Cext.visualEditor.desktopArticleTarget.noscript%7Cext.wikimediaBadges%7Cext.wikimediamessages.styles%7Cjquery.makeCollapsible.styles%7Cmediawiki.widgets.styles%7Coojs-ui-core.icons%2Cstyles%7Coojs-ui.styles.indicators%7Cskins.vector.icons%2Cstyles%7Cskins.vector.search.codex.styles&only=styles&skin=vector-2022"> <script async="" src="/w/load.php?lang=en&modules=startup&only=scripts&raw=1&skin=vector-2022"></script> <meta name="ResourceLoaderDynamicStyles" content=""> <link rel="stylesheet" href="/w/load.php?lang=en&modules=site.styles&only=styles&skin=vector-2022"> <meta name="generator" content="MediaWiki 1.44.0-wmf.4"> <meta name="referrer" content="origin"> <meta name="referrer" content="origin-when-cross-origin"> <meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow,max-image-preview:standard"> <meta name="format-detection" content="telephone=no"> <meta name="viewport" content="width=1120"> <meta property="og:title" content="View source for Talk:Clipper - Wikipedia"> <meta property="og:type" content="website"> <link rel="preconnect" href="//upload.wikimedia.org"> <link rel="alternate" media="only screen and (max-width: 640px)" href="//en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Clipper"> <link rel="alternate" type="application/x-wiki" title="Edit this page" href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Clipper&action=edit"> <link rel="apple-touch-icon" href="/static/apple-touch/wikipedia.png"> <link rel="icon" href="/static/favicon/wikipedia.ico"> <link rel="search" type="application/opensearchdescription+xml" href="/w/rest.php/v1/search" title="Wikipedia (en)"> <link rel="EditURI" type="application/rsd+xml" href="//en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=rsd"> <link rel="canonical" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Clipper"> <link rel="license" href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/deed.en"> <link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml" title="Wikipedia Atom feed" href="/w/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&feed=atom"> <link rel="dns-prefetch" href="//login.wikimedia.org"> </head> <body class="ext-discussiontools-replytool-enabled ext-discussiontools-newtopictool-enabled ext-discussiontools-sourcemodetoolbar-enabled skin--responsive skin-vector skin-vector-search-vue mediawiki ltr sitedir-ltr mw-hide-empty-elt ns-1 ns-talk mw-editable page-Talk_Clipper rootpage-Talk_Clipper skin-vector-2022 action-edit"><a class="mw-jump-link" href="#bodyContent">Jump to content</a> <div class="vector-header-container"> <header class="vector-header mw-header"> <div class="vector-header-start"> <nav class="vector-main-menu-landmark" aria-label="Site"> <div id="vector-main-menu-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown vector-main-menu-dropdown vector-button-flush-left vector-button-flush-right" > <input type="checkbox" id="vector-main-menu-dropdown-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-vector-main-menu-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox " aria-label="Main menu" > <label id="vector-main-menu-dropdown-label" for="vector-main-menu-dropdown-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only " aria-hidden="true" ><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-menu mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-menu"></span> <span class="vector-dropdown-label-text">Main menu</span> </label> <div class="vector-dropdown-content"> <div id="vector-main-menu-unpinned-container" class="vector-unpinned-container"> <div id="vector-main-menu" class="vector-main-menu vector-pinnable-element"> <div class="vector-pinnable-header vector-main-menu-pinnable-header vector-pinnable-header-unpinned" data-feature-name="main-menu-pinned" data-pinnable-element-id="vector-main-menu" data-pinned-container-id="vector-main-menu-pinned-container" data-unpinned-container-id="vector-main-menu-unpinned-container" > <div class="vector-pinnable-header-label">Main menu</div> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-pin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-main-menu.pin">move to sidebar</button> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-unpin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-main-menu.unpin">hide</button> </div> <div id="p-navigation" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-navigation" > <div class="vector-menu-heading"> Navigation </div> <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="n-mainpage-description" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Main_Page" title="Visit the main page [z]" accesskey="z"><span>Main page</span></a></li><li id="n-contents" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Contents" title="Guides to browsing Wikipedia"><span>Contents</span></a></li><li id="n-currentevents" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Current_events" title="Articles related to current events"><span>Current events</span></a></li><li id="n-randompage" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Special:Random" title="Visit a randomly selected article [x]" accesskey="x"><span>Random article</span></a></li><li id="n-aboutsite" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:About" title="Learn about Wikipedia and how it works"><span>About Wikipedia</span></a></li><li id="n-contactpage" class="mw-list-item"><a href="//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Contact_us" title="How to contact Wikipedia"><span>Contact us</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="p-interaction" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-interaction" > <div class="vector-menu-heading"> Contribute </div> <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="n-help" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Help:Contents" title="Guidance on how to use and edit Wikipedia"><span>Help</span></a></li><li id="n-introduction" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Help:Introduction" title="Learn how to edit Wikipedia"><span>Learn to edit</span></a></li><li id="n-portal" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Community_portal" title="The hub for editors"><span>Community portal</span></a></li><li id="n-recentchanges" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Special:RecentChanges" title="A list of recent changes to Wikipedia [r]" accesskey="r"><span>Recent changes</span></a></li><li id="n-upload" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:File_upload_wizard" title="Add images or other media for use on Wikipedia"><span>Upload file</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </nav> <a href="/wiki/Main_Page" class="mw-logo"> <img class="mw-logo-icon" src="/static/images/icons/wikipedia.png" alt="" aria-hidden="true" height="50" width="50"> <span class="mw-logo-container skin-invert"> <img class="mw-logo-wordmark" alt="Wikipedia" src="/static/images/mobile/copyright/wikipedia-wordmark-en.svg" style="width: 7.5em; height: 1.125em;"> <img class="mw-logo-tagline" alt="The Free Encyclopedia" src="/static/images/mobile/copyright/wikipedia-tagline-en.svg" width="117" height="13" style="width: 7.3125em; height: 0.8125em;"> </span> </a> </div> <div class="vector-header-end"> <div id="p-search" role="search" class="vector-search-box-vue vector-search-box-collapses vector-search-box-show-thumbnail vector-search-box-auto-expand-width vector-search-box"> <a href="/wiki/Special:Search" class="cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only search-toggle" title="Search Wikipedia [f]" accesskey="f"><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-search mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-search"></span> <span>Search</span> </a> <div class="vector-typeahead-search-container"> <div class="cdx-typeahead-search cdx-typeahead-search--show-thumbnail cdx-typeahead-search--auto-expand-width"> <form action="/w/index.php" id="searchform" class="cdx-search-input cdx-search-input--has-end-button"> <div id="simpleSearch" class="cdx-search-input__input-wrapper" data-search-loc="header-moved"> <div class="cdx-text-input cdx-text-input--has-start-icon"> <input class="cdx-text-input__input" type="search" name="search" placeholder="Search Wikipedia" aria-label="Search Wikipedia" autocapitalize="sentences" title="Search Wikipedia [f]" accesskey="f" id="searchInput" > <span class="cdx-text-input__icon cdx-text-input__start-icon"></span> </div> <input type="hidden" name="title" value="Special:Search"> </div> <button class="cdx-button cdx-search-input__end-button">Search</button> </form> </div> </div> </div> <nav class="vector-user-links vector-user-links-wide" aria-label="Personal tools"> <div class="vector-user-links-main"> <div id="p-vector-user-menu-preferences" class="vector-menu mw-portlet emptyPortlet" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="p-vector-user-menu-userpage" class="vector-menu mw-portlet emptyPortlet" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> </ul> </div> </div> <nav class="vector-appearance-landmark" aria-label="Appearance"> <div id="vector-appearance-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown " title="Change the appearance of the page's font size, width, and color" > <input type="checkbox" id="vector-appearance-dropdown-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-vector-appearance-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox " aria-label="Appearance" > <label id="vector-appearance-dropdown-label" for="vector-appearance-dropdown-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only " aria-hidden="true" ><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-appearance mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-appearance"></span> <span class="vector-dropdown-label-text">Appearance</span> </label> <div class="vector-dropdown-content"> <div id="vector-appearance-unpinned-container" class="vector-unpinned-container"> </div> </div> </div> </nav> <div id="p-vector-user-menu-notifications" class="vector-menu mw-portlet emptyPortlet" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="p-vector-user-menu-overflow" class="vector-menu mw-portlet" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="pt-sitesupport-2" class="user-links-collapsible-item mw-list-item user-links-collapsible-item"><a data-mw="interface" href="https://donate.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:FundraiserRedirector?utm_source=donate&utm_medium=sidebar&utm_campaign=C13_en.wikipedia.org&uselang=en" class=""><span>Donate</span></a> </li> <li id="pt-createaccount-2" class="user-links-collapsible-item mw-list-item user-links-collapsible-item"><a data-mw="interface" href="/w/index.php?title=Special:CreateAccount&returnto=Talk%3AClipper&returntoquery=action%3Dedit" title="You are encouraged to create an account and log in; however, it is not mandatory" class=""><span>Create account</span></a> </li> <li id="pt-login-2" class="user-links-collapsible-item mw-list-item user-links-collapsible-item"><a data-mw="interface" href="/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&returnto=Talk%3AClipper&returntoquery=action%3Dedit" title="You're encouraged to log in; however, it's not mandatory. [o]" accesskey="o" class=""><span>Log in</span></a> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </div> <div id="vector-user-links-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown vector-user-menu vector-button-flush-right vector-user-menu-logged-out" title="Log in and more options" > <input type="checkbox" id="vector-user-links-dropdown-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-vector-user-links-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox " aria-label="Personal tools" > <label id="vector-user-links-dropdown-label" for="vector-user-links-dropdown-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only " aria-hidden="true" ><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-ellipsis mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-ellipsis"></span> <span class="vector-dropdown-label-text">Personal tools</span> </label> <div class="vector-dropdown-content"> <div id="p-personal" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-personal user-links-collapsible-item" title="User menu" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="pt-sitesupport" class="user-links-collapsible-item mw-list-item"><a href="https://donate.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:FundraiserRedirector?utm_source=donate&utm_medium=sidebar&utm_campaign=C13_en.wikipedia.org&uselang=en"><span>Donate</span></a></li><li id="pt-createaccount" class="user-links-collapsible-item mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Special:CreateAccount&returnto=Talk%3AClipper&returntoquery=action%3Dedit" title="You are encouraged to create an account and log in; however, it is not mandatory"><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-userAdd mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-userAdd"></span> <span>Create account</span></a></li><li id="pt-login" class="user-links-collapsible-item mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&returnto=Talk%3AClipper&returntoquery=action%3Dedit" title="You're encouraged to log in; however, it's not mandatory. [o]" accesskey="o"><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-logIn mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-logIn"></span> <span>Log in</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="p-user-menu-anon-editor" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-user-menu-anon-editor" > <div class="vector-menu-heading"> Pages for logged out editors <a href="/wiki/Help:Introduction" aria-label="Learn more about editing"><span>learn more</span></a> </div> <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="pt-anoncontribs" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Special:MyContributions" title="A list of edits made from this IP address [y]" accesskey="y"><span>Contributions</span></a></li><li id="pt-anontalk" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Special:MyTalk" title="Discussion about edits from this IP address [n]" accesskey="n"><span>Talk</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> </div> </div> </nav> </div> </header> </div> <div class="mw-page-container"> <div class="mw-page-container-inner"> <div class="vector-sitenotice-container"> <div id="siteNotice"></div> </div> <div class="vector-column-start"> <div class="vector-main-menu-container"> <div id="mw-navigation"> <nav id="mw-panel" class="vector-main-menu-landmark" aria-label="Site"> <div id="vector-main-menu-pinned-container" class="vector-pinned-container"> </div> </nav> </div> </div> </div> <div class="mw-content-container"> <main id="content" class="mw-body"> <header class="mw-body-header vector-page-titlebar"> <h1 id="firstHeading" class="firstHeading mw-first-heading">View source for Talk:Clipper</h1> <div id="p-lang-btn" class="vector-dropdown mw-portlet mw-portlet-lang mw-portlet-lang-icon-only" > <input type="checkbox" id="p-lang-btn-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-p-lang-btn" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox mw-interlanguage-selector-empty" aria-label="This article exist only in this language. Add the article for other languages" > <label id="p-lang-btn-label" for="p-lang-btn-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only mw-portlet-lang-heading-empty" aria-hidden="true" ><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-language mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-language"></span> <span class="vector-dropdown-label-text">Add languages</span> </label> <div class="vector-dropdown-content"> <div class="mw-portlet-empty-language-selector-body"> Page contents not supported in other languages. </div> </div> </div> </header> <div class="vector-page-toolbar"> <div class="vector-page-toolbar-container"> <div id="left-navigation"> <nav aria-label="Namespaces"> <div id="p-associated-pages" class="vector-menu vector-menu-tabs mw-portlet mw-portlet-associated-pages" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="ca-nstab-main" class="vector-tab-noicon mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Clipper" title="View the content page [c]" accesskey="c"><span>Article</span></a></li><li id="ca-talk" class="selected vector-tab-noicon mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Talk:Clipper" rel="discussion" title="Discuss improvements to the content page [t]" accesskey="t"><span>Talk</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="vector-variants-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown emptyPortlet" > <input type="checkbox" id="vector-variants-dropdown-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-vector-variants-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox " aria-label="Change language variant" > <label id="vector-variants-dropdown-label" for="vector-variants-dropdown-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet" aria-hidden="true" ><span class="vector-dropdown-label-text">English</span> </label> <div class="vector-dropdown-content"> <div id="p-variants" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-variants emptyPortlet" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> </ul> </div> </div> </div> </div> </nav> </div> <div id="right-navigation" class="vector-collapsible"> <nav aria-label="Views"> <div id="p-views" class="vector-menu vector-menu-tabs mw-portlet mw-portlet-views" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="ca-view" class="vector-tab-noicon mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Talk:Clipper"><span>Read</span></a></li><li id="ca-edit" class="selected istalk vector-tab-noicon mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Clipper&action=edit" title="Edit this page"><span>Edit</span></a></li><li id="ca-addsection" class="vector-tab-noicon mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Clipper&action=edit&section=new" title="Start a new section [+]" accesskey="+"><span>Add topic</span></a></li><li id="ca-history" class="vector-tab-noicon mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Clipper&action=history" title="Past revisions of this page [h]" accesskey="h"><span>View history</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> </nav> <nav class="vector-page-tools-landmark" aria-label="Page tools"> <div id="vector-page-tools-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown vector-page-tools-dropdown" > <input type="checkbox" id="vector-page-tools-dropdown-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-vector-page-tools-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox " aria-label="Tools" > <label id="vector-page-tools-dropdown-label" for="vector-page-tools-dropdown-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet" aria-hidden="true" ><span class="vector-dropdown-label-text">Tools</span> </label> <div class="vector-dropdown-content"> <div id="vector-page-tools-unpinned-container" class="vector-unpinned-container"> <div id="vector-page-tools" class="vector-page-tools vector-pinnable-element"> <div class="vector-pinnable-header vector-page-tools-pinnable-header vector-pinnable-header-unpinned" data-feature-name="page-tools-pinned" data-pinnable-element-id="vector-page-tools" data-pinned-container-id="vector-page-tools-pinned-container" data-unpinned-container-id="vector-page-tools-unpinned-container" > <div class="vector-pinnable-header-label">Tools</div> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-pin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-page-tools.pin">move to sidebar</button> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-unpin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-page-tools.unpin">hide</button> </div> <div id="p-cactions" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-cactions emptyPortlet vector-has-collapsible-items" title="More options" > <div class="vector-menu-heading"> Actions </div> <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="ca-more-view" class="vector-more-collapsible-item mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Talk:Clipper"><span>Read</span></a></li><li id="ca-more-edit" class="selected istalk vector-more-collapsible-item mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Clipper&action=edit" title="Edit this page [e]" accesskey="e"><span>Edit</span></a></li><li id="ca-more-addsection" class="vector-more-collapsible-item mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Clipper&action=edit&section=new"><span>Add topic</span></a></li><li id="ca-more-history" class="vector-more-collapsible-item mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Clipper&action=history"><span>View history</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="p-tb" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-tb" > <div class="vector-menu-heading"> General </div> <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="t-whatlinkshere" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Talk:Clipper" title="List of all English Wikipedia pages containing links to this page [j]" accesskey="j"><span>What links here</span></a></li><li id="t-recentchangeslinked" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Special:RecentChangesLinked/Talk:Clipper" rel="nofollow" title="Recent changes in pages linked from this page [k]" accesskey="k"><span>Related changes</span></a></li><li id="t-upload" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:File_Upload_Wizard" title="Upload files [u]" accesskey="u"><span>Upload file</span></a></li><li id="t-specialpages" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Special:SpecialPages" title="A list of all special pages [q]" accesskey="q"><span>Special pages</span></a></li><li id="t-info" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Clipper&action=info" title="More information about this page"><span>Page information</span></a></li><li id="t-urlshortener" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Special:UrlShortener&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fw%2Findex.php%3Ftitle%3DTalk%3AClipper%26action%3Dedit"><span>Get shortened URL</span></a></li><li id="t-urlshortener-qrcode" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Special:QrCode&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fw%2Findex.php%3Ftitle%3DTalk%3AClipper%26action%3Dedit"><span>Download QR code</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="p-wikibase-otherprojects" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-wikibase-otherprojects emptyPortlet" > <div class="vector-menu-heading"> In other projects </div> <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> </ul> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </nav> </div> </div> </div> <div class="vector-column-end"> <div class="vector-sticky-pinned-container"> <nav class="vector-page-tools-landmark" aria-label="Page tools"> <div id="vector-page-tools-pinned-container" class="vector-pinned-container"> </div> </nav> <nav class="vector-appearance-landmark" aria-label="Appearance"> <div id="vector-appearance-pinned-container" class="vector-pinned-container"> <div id="vector-appearance" class="vector-appearance vector-pinnable-element"> <div class="vector-pinnable-header vector-appearance-pinnable-header vector-pinnable-header-pinned" data-feature-name="appearance-pinned" data-pinnable-element-id="vector-appearance" data-pinned-container-id="vector-appearance-pinned-container" data-unpinned-container-id="vector-appearance-unpinned-container" > <div class="vector-pinnable-header-label">Appearance</div> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-pin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-appearance.pin">move to sidebar</button> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-unpin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-appearance.unpin">hide</button> </div> </div> </div> </nav> </div> </div> <div id="bodyContent" class="vector-body" aria-labelledby="firstHeading" data-mw-ve-target-container> <div class="vector-body-before-content"> <div class="mw-indicators"> </div> </div> <div id="contentSub"><div id="mw-content-subtitle">← <a href="/wiki/Talk:Clipper" title="Talk:Clipper">Talk:Clipper</a></div></div> <div id="mw-content-text" class="mw-body-content"><p>You do not have permission to edit this page, for the following reasons: </p> <ul class="permissions-errors"><li class="mw-permissionerror-blockedtext"> <div id="mw-blocked-text" style="border: 1px solid #AAA; background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, ivory); color: inherit; padding: 1.5em; width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box;"> <div style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: 26px;"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Stop_hand_nuvola.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f1/Stop_hand_nuvola.svg/50px-Stop_hand_nuvola.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f1/Stop_hand_nuvola.svg/75px-Stop_hand_nuvola.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f1/Stop_hand_nuvola.svg/100px-Stop_hand_nuvola.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="240" data-file-height="240" /></a></span><b> This IP address has been <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Blocking_policy" title="Wikipedia:Blocking policy">blocked</a> from <i>editing</i> Wikipedia.</b></span><br /><span style="font-size: 18px;">This does not affect your ability to <i>read</i> Wikipedia pages.</span></div><div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div><b>Most people who see this message have done nothing wrong.</b> Some kinds of blocks restrict editing from specific service providers or telecom companies in response to recent abuse or vandalism, and can sometimes affect other users who are unrelated to that abuse. Review the information below for assistance if you do not believe that you have done anything wrong.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> <p>The IP address or range 8.222.128.0/17 has been <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Blocking_policy" title="Wikipedia:Blocking policy">blocked</a> by <a href="/wiki/User:L235" title="User:L235">‪L235‬</a> for the following reason(s): </p> <div style="padding:10px; background:var(--background-color-base, white); color:inherit; border:1px #666 solid;"> <div class="user-block colocation-webhost" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; background-color: #ffefd5; border: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0.7em;"> <figure class="mw-halign-left" typeof="mw:File"><span><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Server-multiple.svg/40px-Server-multiple.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="57" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Server-multiple.svg/60px-Server-multiple.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Server-multiple.svg/80px-Server-multiple.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="744" data-file-height="1052" /></span><figcaption></figcaption></figure><b>The <a href="/wiki/IP_address" title="IP address">IP address</a> that you are currently using has been blocked because it is believed to be a <a href="/wiki/Web_hosting_service" title="Web hosting service">web host provider</a> or <a href="/wiki/Colocation_centre" title="Colocation centre">colocation provider</a>.</b> To prevent abuse, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Open_proxies" title="Wikipedia:Open proxies">web hosts and colocation providers may be blocked</a> from editing Wikipedia. <div style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; clear: both">You will not be able to edit Wikipedia using a web host or colocation provider because it hides your IP address, much like a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Open_proxies" title="Wikipedia:Open proxies">proxy</a> or <a href="/wiki/Virtual_private_network" title="Virtual private network">VPN</a>. <p><b>We recommend that you attempt to use another connection to edit.</b> For example, if you use a proxy or VPN to connect to the internet, turn it off when editing Wikipedia. If you edit using a mobile connection, try using a Wi-Fi connection, and vice versa. If you are using a corporate internet connection, switch to a different Wi-Fi network. If you have a Wikipedia account, please log in. </p><p>If you do not have any other way to edit Wikipedia, you will need to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:IP_block_exemption#Requesting_and_granting_exemption" title="Wikipedia:IP block exemption">request an IP block exemption</a>. </p> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1214851843">.mw-parser-output .hidden-begin{box-sizing:border-box;width:100%;padding:5px;border:none;font-size:95%}.mw-parser-output .hidden-title{font-weight:bold;line-height:1.6;text-align:left}.mw-parser-output .hidden-content{text-align:left}@media all and (max-width:500px){.mw-parser-output .hidden-begin{width:auto!important;clear:none!important;float:none!important}}</style><div class="hidden-begin mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style=""><div class="hidden-title skin-nightmode-reset-color" style="text-align:center;">How to appeal if you are confident that your connection does not use a colocation provider's IP address:</div><div class="hidden-content mw-collapsible-content" style=""> If you are confident that you are not using a web host, you may <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Appealing_a_block" title="Wikipedia:Appealing a block">appeal this block</a> by adding the following text on your <a href="/wiki/Help:Talk_pages" title="Help:Talk pages">talk page</a>: <code>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Unblock" title="Template:Unblock">unblock</a>|reason=Caught by a colocation web host block but this host or IP is not a web host. My IP address is _______. <i>Place any further information here.</i> ~~~~}}</code>. <b>You must fill in the blank with your IP address for this block to be investigated.</b> Your IP address can be determined <span class="plainlinks"><b><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Get_my_IP_address?withJS=MediaWiki:Get-my-ip.js">here</a></b></span>. Alternatively, if you wish to keep your IP address private you can use the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Unblock_Ticket_Request_System" title="Wikipedia:Unblock Ticket Request System">unblock ticket request system</a>. There are several reasons you might be editing using the IP address of a web host or colocation provider (such as if you are using VPN software or a business network); please use this method of appeal only if you think your IP address is in fact not a web host or colocation provider.</div></div> <p><span class="sysop-show" style="font-size: 85%;"><span style="border:#707070 solid 1px;background-color:#ffe0e0;padding:2px"><b>Administrators:</b></span> The <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:IP_block_exemption" title="Wikipedia:IP block exemption">IP block exemption</a> user right should only be applied to allow users to edit using web host in exceptional circumstances, and requests should usually be directed to the functionaries team via email. If you intend to give the IPBE user right, a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CheckUser" title="Wikipedia:CheckUser">CheckUser</a> needs to take a look at the account. This can be requested most easily at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SPI#Quick_CheckUser_requests" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SPI">SPI Quick Checkuser Requests</a>. <b>Unblocking</b> an IP or IP range with this template <b>is highly discouraged</b> without at least contacting the blocking administrator.</span> </p> </div></div> </div> <p>This block will expire on 18:23, 24 August 2026. Your current IP address is 8.222.208.146. </p> <div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div><div style="font-size: 16px;"> <p>Even when blocked, you will <i>usually</i> still be able to edit your <a href="/wiki/Special:MyTalk" title="Special:MyTalk">user talk page</a>, as well as <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Emailing_users" title="Wikipedia:Emailing users">email</a> administrators and other editors. </p> </div> <div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div><div style="font-size: 16px;"> <p>For information on how to proceed, please read the <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Appealing_a_block#Common_questions" title="Wikipedia:Appealing a block">FAQ for blocked users</a></b> and the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Appealing_a_block" title="Wikipedia:Appealing a block">guideline on block appeals</a>. The <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Guide_to_appealing_blocks" title="Wikipedia:Guide to appealing blocks">guide to appealing blocks</a> may also be helpful. </p> </div> <p>Other useful links: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Blocking_policy" title="Wikipedia:Blocking policy">Blocking policy</a> · <a href="/wiki/Help:I_have_been_blocked" title="Help:I have been blocked">Help:I have been blocked</a> </p> </div></li><li class="mw-permissionerror-globalblocking-blockedtext-range"> <div id="mw-blocked-text" style="border: 1px solid #AAA; background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, ivory); color: inherit; padding: 1.5em; width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box;"> <div style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: 26px;"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Stop_hand_nuvola.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f1/Stop_hand_nuvola.svg/50px-Stop_hand_nuvola.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f1/Stop_hand_nuvola.svg/75px-Stop_hand_nuvola.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f1/Stop_hand_nuvola.svg/100px-Stop_hand_nuvola.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="240" data-file-height="240" /></a></span><b> This IP address range has been <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global_blocks" class="extiw" title="m:Global blocks">globally blocked</a>.</b></span><br /><span style="font-size: 18px;">This does not affect your ability to <i>read</i> Wikipedia pages.</span></div><div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div><b>Most people who see this message have done nothing wrong.</b> Some kinds of blocks restrict editing from specific service providers or telecom companies in response to recent abuse or vandalism, and can sometimes affect other users who are unrelated to that abuse. Review the information below for assistance if you do not believe that you have done anything wrong.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div><div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> <p>This block affects editing on all Wikimedia wikis. </p><p>The IP address or range 8.222.128.0/17 has been globally <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Blocking_policy" title="Wikipedia:Blocking policy">blocked</a> by <a href="/wiki/User:Jon_Kolbert" title="User:Jon Kolbert">‪Jon Kolbert‬</a> for the following reason(s): </p> <div style="padding:10px; background:var(--background-color-base, white); color:inherit; border:1px #666 solid;"> <p><a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/NOP" class="extiw" title="m:Special:MyLanguage/NOP">Open proxy/Webhost</a>: See the <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WM:OP/H" class="extiw" title="m:WM:OP/H">help page</a> if you are affected </p> </div> <p>This block will expire on 15:12, 27 August 2028. Your current IP address is 8.222.208.146. </p> <div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div><div style="font-size: 16px;"> <p>Even while globally blocked, you will <i>usually</i> still be able to edit pages on <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/" class="extiw" title="m:">Meta-Wiki</a>. </p> </div> <div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div><div style="font-size: 16px;"> <p>If you believe you were blocked by mistake, you can find additional information and instructions in the <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/No_open_proxies" class="extiw" title="m:Special:MyLanguage/No open proxies">No open proxies</a> global policy. Otherwise, to discuss the block please <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Steward_requests/Global" class="extiw" title="m:Steward requests/Global">post a request for review on Meta-Wiki</a>. You could also send an email to the <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Stewards" class="extiw" title="m:Special:MyLanguage/Stewards">stewards</a> <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/VRT" class="extiw" title="m:Special:MyLanguage/VRT">VRT</a> queue at <kbd>stewards@wikimedia.org</kbd> including all above details. </p> </div> <p>Other useful links: <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global_blocks" class="extiw" title="m:Global blocks">Global blocks</a> · <a href="/wiki/Help:I_have_been_blocked" title="Help:I have been blocked">Help:I have been blocked</a> </p> </div></li></ul><hr /> <div id="viewsourcetext">You can view and copy the source of this page:</div><textarea readonly="" accesskey="," id="wpTextbox1" cols="80" rows="25" style="" class="mw-editfont-monospace" lang="en" dir="ltr" name="wpTextbox1">{{WikiProject banner shell|class=C|vital=yes|1= {{WikiProject Ships}} {{WikiProject Transport|maritime=yes|maritime-importance=mid|importance=mid}} }} ==A few answers== I am a fourth generation American shipwright living in Seattle Wa. Having grown up reading volume upon volume about the sailing ships of the 19'th century, I hope that I can provide at least some insight into this. '''First thought:''' ''The origins of the clipper ship.'' Though the Ann McKim had many similarities with clippers it has and is not considered to be the first true clipper. Built for Isaac McKim in Baltimore, it was actually designed as a larger example of the Baltimore ''schooner'' clipper of which he had owned a few prior and not purpose designed as a new and radical type, fast cargo ship. The ''raked bow'' mentioned in the article is ambiguous and the Clipper design does not necessarily adhere to this. Many clippers had an almost bluff stem with little to no rake, but instead had a very sharp entry, usually with a hollow and a large amount of ''reserve buoyancy'' (widened hurricane style bow) at the sheer line. The other defining features were an extremely fine exit aft(narrow stern), and an extremely narrow width to length ratio. Some of these, but not all of these features can be found in many ships pre-dating even the Ann McKim, but no ship incorporated all of these features until John Griffith's ''Rainbow'' Built in 1843. Also the term ''clipper'' is again ambiguous. Although the Baltimore Clippers, were fast ships their design and use are ultimately far different than the Clipper ships that would come after. Moreover there is no evidence that the first true clipper ships designed by John Griffith and William Web living in New York, were at all influenced by the smaller vessels being built "down east". Basically what I am saying is that to claim any ship as the first ''true clipper'', you must show that later designs have a true lineage from it. Only the Rainbow can make that claim as the ships coming directly after it were direct result of lessons learned from that design. '''Second thought:''' T''he history of the clipper.'' The first building and by all accounts design of the clipper, began as discussions between freinds in the pubs of New York between the then young designer John Griffith, ships captain Nathaniel Palmer, and shipwrights William Web, and Donald McKay. (Donald McKay had been an apprentice along with William Web at Web's fathers shipyard in New York. Having been signed on by his father at age 16. (McKay's family were loyalists that fled to Newfoundland from New York after the revolution). Griffith had come across a book written by a British scientist (will correct with proper name later), that had been discredited in England simply because it ran against principles promoted by the great English scholar Isaac Newton regarding fluid dynamics. Griffith continued and expanded upon the research creating his own test tanks and experimenting with the concepts. These discussions led Nathaniel to design a ship while on an East Indies run that would have the entry but not the exit of the true clipper. His ship would be built in 1843 across the river from John Griffith's Rainbow and would be completed much sooner. However after the successful launch and subsequent verification of design of the Rainbow, a string of ships from the two shipwrights William Web and Donald McKay would improve upon the design. Beginning with William Web's Sea Witch, that would be captained by Nathaniel Palmer. '''Third thought:''' ''The demise of the clipper ship.'' Though many historians place the demise of the clipper directly in the path of the steam ship this is not entirely true. There were many factors that led to the end of the clippers. The first of which was the advent of the ''Wind Jammer''. Massively built large sailing cargo vessels built with the clean bow of the clipper but without the narrow hull. Usually these larger sailing vessels could carry drastically larger cargo than the clippers, at a much cheaper rate. The issue of speed was nominal simply because the larger ships having a water line length of 300' or more would sail at speeds close enough to the clippers as to make them overkill. Except in the cases where extreme speed was essential such as the British Tea runs. This also explains why the decline of the clipper happened much faster in the US than in Briton. With the building of the first trans-continental rail in the US. There were really no high speed long distance runs left for American shipping. Thus the steamers with their shorter range could handle most of the short distance cargo, and the long range runs could be handled by the Wind Jammers at a much lower cost. Donald McKay would continue advancing and competing with clipper ships until the construction of ''Glory of the Seas''. At which time the ship itself was lost to creditors even before the launch and Donald McKay, basically lost everything. I admittedly don't know much about the bust of 1857, but I do know that American shipping continued through this time, and there is no reason to believe that clipper ships would have been the sole target of such an economic downturn. All shipping would have probably been affected equally, and we do know that many ships were built during and after this time of all types. I am sure in my library that I have at least one out of print book on the subject that would legally be in the public domain. I will check on it and then scan drawings, and give better references. [[User:Deathguppie|Deathguppie]] ([[User talk:Deathguppie|talk]]) 22:24, 4 December 2008 (UTC) ==Could somone provide a better panoramic?== "Decline in the use of clippers started with the economic slump following the Panic of 1857" lead me to check what "the Panic of 1875" was just to find out that it was a part of US History alone (back then such an event couldn't have the worldwide effects now it would), seeing that I had say all data on the end of the golden age of sail becomes an easy target for doubt on its meaningfulness to maritime history as a hole... But I don't how to add the banner asking for les US.centric info[[User:Undead Herle King|Undead Herle King]] ([[User talk:Undead Herle King|talk]]) 05:10, 1 September 2008 (UTC) ==20 knots???== ''" Sometimes these ships could reach 20 knots."'' I'm very sure this is a mistake. Can anyone vet it or provide data? Modern long-distance racing sailboats average in the neighborhood of 10 knots. I did not remove the text. --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 05:05, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC) :Cutler reports four specific instances of speeds logged at 20 or more, with an 1854 voyage of ''Sovereign of the Seas'' logging 22 knots. This is prefixed with three pages of discussion on whether any number over 15-16 knots was plausible, at the end of which he concludes that the logs ought to be believed. I should probably add a paragraph on this point. [[User:Stan Shebs|Stan]] 08:12, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC) Yes. Even if it were only for me. I was wrong: it is certainly an incredible speed. Good thing I didn't remove the text. What's the highhest speed for a modern [[catamaran]] I wonder? --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 10:58, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC) :Heh, you weren't the only one disbelieving - to some extent, I think Cutler was simply unwilling to call the captains liars or incompetent. One of the reasons day's runs are preferred as a measure of performance; more reliably documentable, and not just a momentary fluke of perfect wind and perfect water. New cats seem able to go quite a bit higher; [http://www.fossettchallenge.com/html/press_archives/transAt_10oct01.html] reports an '''average''' of nearly 26 knots for ''Playstation'' in 2001, with some other sites mentioning 40-knot(!) peaks. But they're "cheating"; no cargo. :-) [[User:Stan Shebs|Stan]] 16:39, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC) :All good entries answer the primary questions. The ''first'' question about clippers is, "How fast did they go?" So, any sourced text on this heading is grist to the mill. --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 22:27, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC) :: You find 20 knots hard to believe ? Frigates of the beginning of the 19th century were quite often reaching the 18 knots... (with awfully anti-hydrodynamic hull shapes :p ) [[User:Rama|Rama]] 13:27, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC) :::I don't beleive that, can you give us a source? --[[User:John.james|John.james]] 22:25, 17 June 2007 (UTC) However I just removed the 35 knots top speed from the 'The China Clippers and the Epitome of Sail' section. I guess someone confused wind speed with boat speed here. You find a lot of articles that go up to 20 knots and a bit over what is a great speed already. Take into concideration: the boat is at 35 knots means around 50 knots + wind speed resulting in 8 meters + waves ... [[User:rummsmummel|rummsmummel]] 14:39, 16 Nov 2006 (UTC) :But surely that section's current speed of 7 knots is low. Was it vandalized? See the "Speed Again" section of this discussion. [[User:Wdfarmer|Wdfarmer]] 10:08, 27 May 2007 (UTC) ::The 7 knot change first appeared [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Clipper&oldid=113376387 here] as far as i can tell. This is certainly far too low. I'm going to change it back to 20 knots and add a citation.--[[User:John.james|John.james]] 21:16, 17 June 2007 (UTC) ::Ok, heres what I found: {{quotation| <p>There are many ways of judging the speed of a ship: by knots per hour, by day's runs, by port-to-port records. Judged by any test, the American clippers were supreme.</p> <p>[[Donald McKay]]'s ''[[Sovereign of the Seas (clipper)|Sovereign of the Seas]]'' reported the highest rate of speed ever acheived by a sailing ship - 22 knots, made while running her easting down to Austrailia in 1854. (John Griffiths' first clipper, the ''Rainbow'', had a top speed of 14 knots... ) There are eleven other instances of a ship's logging 18 knots or over. Ten of these were recorded by American clippers...</p> <p> Besides the breath-taking 465-mile day's run of the ''Champion of the Seas'', there are thirteen other cases of a ship's sailing over 400 nautical miles in 24 hours...</p> <p>And with few exceptions all the port-to-port sailing records are held by the American clippers.</p> | Lyon, Jane D | P.138 ''Clipper Ships and Captains''(1962)New York: American Heritage Publishing }} 400 miles in a day is 16.6 knots average. Since there are only 14 cases of ships exceeding 400 miles in 24 hours, and only 12 cases of over 18 knots measured, I changed the article to read: "with peak average speeds even exceeding 16 knots" --[[User:John.james|John.james]] 22:25, 17 June 2007 (UTC) ==Clippers and economic context== [[User:AlainV]] has made a suggestive connection between clipper production and economic bust times. I only query his "1855" instead of the more general bank and market "Crash of 1857". Could the familiar date be substituted, or is there more information? --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 09:46, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) == "Aerial Clippers" == I have never seen this term used elsewhere; as far as I know the term was "flying clipper." Can anyone think of a good reason why I shouldn't change the wording?[[User:J S Ayer|J S Ayer]] 02:20, 29 August 2005 (UTC) :"Flying clippers" is right. --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 02:22, 29 August 2005 (UTC) We don't have to use a word because it's been used before. The trouble with 'flying' is that the big German ships were given names beginning with 'P', ''Pamir'', ''Preussen'' and so on. They came to be known as the 'Flying Ps'. The word 'flyer' was frequently used in connection with fast ships. 'Aerial' sees a good adjective for the aeroplanes - that's what they were. ([[User:RJP|RJP]] 21:59, 2 February 2006 (UTC)) ::("Flying clippers" was the common expression nevertheless.) --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 08:35, 17 November 2006 (UTC) :::I think RJP is talking about the [[Flying P-Liner|''Flying P'' Line]]. This line didn't go in for the P theme until later in the 19th century, and perhaps the appeal of the ''flying'' appelation was in part because of the earlier context. Theres also the ''[[Flying Cloud]]''. I think these usages are prior to the flying P line. --[[User:John.james|John.james]] 01:19, 16 June 2007 (UTC) ::::The most common phrases used in literature are the terms "extreme clipper" or "china clipper". The latter would be mostly a reference to the clippers used in the British tea trade. Ref [http://books.google.com/books?id=Rh9kOu3_3SAC&pg=PA96&lpg=PA96&dq=clipper+oriental&source=bl&ots=bAY327HZjE&sig=SH86Z8qFi5NHhPQZ_VYKr9btrmc#PPA65,M1] [[User:Deathguppie|Deathguppie]] ([[User talk:Deathguppie|talk]]) 23:12, 4 December 2008 (UTC) ==Move this Title to disambiguation== Does anyone else think that this page should be a disambiguation page, with Clipper (sailing) as a separate page? There are enough other topics under "clipper" to warrent this. [[User:Fresheneesz|Fresheneesz]] 21:19, 2 February 2006 (UTC) the creater is me == Speed again == "''fastest of all sail vessels, with peak average speeds even exceeding 7 knots for endurances over 12 hours.''" This doesn't seem all that impressive to me. I know that [[Stavros S Niarchos (ship)|Stavros S Niarchos]] once recorded a speed of something like 16 knots and the TSYT brigs are not fast ships. Granted that is peak rather than sustained, but to record only 7 knots average a ship could do that kind of speed for half the time and then sit there motionless for the other half - and I'm pretty sure they weren't in the habit of doing that! [[User:PeteVerdon|PeteVerdon]] 08:08, 24 May 2007 (UTC) ==City of Adelaide== The reference in Wikipedia to "City of Adelaide (1864)" directly relates to the clipper ship in Scotland facing destruction. The link as follows needs to be cross indexed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Adelaide_%281864%29 Peter Christopher Convenor Save the Clipper Ship City of Adelaide Action Group www.cityofadelaide.org.au ==Clippered art== I moved "and represented the first pronounced use of color in American advertising art." and deleted :"These cards, slightly larger than today’s postcards, were produced by letterpress and wood engraving on coated card stock. Most clipper cards were printed in the 1850s and 1860s, and represented the first pronounced use of color in American advertising art. :"Relatively few (perhaps 3,500) clipper cards survive today. With their stunning appearance, rarity, and importance as artifacts of nautical, Western, and printing history, clipper cards are highly prized by both private collectors and institutions." as irrelevant to clippers. Anybody who wants to can move it to [[advertising]], [[card collecting]], or [[garbage|someplace]]. [[User:Trekphiler|Trekphiler]] 01:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC) ==Notable Ships Section== Perhaps this section should be removed as the body only consists of a link to another article? That link could then be moved to the See Also section.--[[User:Plantperson|PlantPerson]] ([[User talk:Plantperson|talk]]) 21:51, 24 December 2007 (UTC) ==Cutty Sark== The Cutty Sark is no longer, as stated in the article, "in reasonable condition", the chief engineer, Professor Peter Mason, has resigned, saying the restoration project will damage the ship and should be stopped, etc. see Andrew Gilligan's article [http://www.greenwich.co.uk/andrew-gilligan/02765-cutty-sark-disaster-the-11-million-nail-in-the-coffin/ Cutty Sark Disaster: The £11 Million Nail In the Coffin]. --[[User:Robkam|Robkam]] ([[User talk:Robkam|talk]]) 17:47, 11 February 2010 (UTC) == American clipper images and content, yet more subtle Americanisation of Wikipedia? == The vast majority of clippers were British (including Baltimore Clippers) subsequently the opening picture should be represented either by a British or neutral clipper image. It was British clippers that opened up Chinese trade, US clippers and traders were represented by no more than 4% total. I suggest the [[Cutty Sark]] or [[Thermopylae ]]image. In fact reading the article it seems that US-orientated content it is WAY over-subscribed irrespective of the historical reality.[[User:Twobells|Twobells]] ([[User talk:Twobells|talk]]) 12:39, 8 July 2011 (UTC) Clipper ships were often used for transporting goods and travelers etc. Their speed made them popular for traders, merchants and travelers, there were in high demand during the trade with China and was later used to transport people to California during the Gold rush. The ships often made trips to India and around the Cape Horn. The ships had massive masts which made the ship quite fast. The ships use was diminished after the panic in 1857 by then stem ships had mostly taken over and there now longer was a need for the large clipper ship. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/67.235.129.14|67.235.129.14]] ([[User talk:67.235.129.14|talk]]) 01:36, 7 September 2011 (UTC)</span>  == short and sweet == Clipper ships were often used for transporting goods and travelers etc. Their speed made them popular for traders; merchants and travelers, there were in high demand during the trade with China and were later used to transport people to California during the Gold rush. The ships often made trips to India and around the Cape Horn. The ships had massive masts which made the ship quite fast. The ships use was diminished after the panic in 1857 by then stem ships had mostly taken over and there now longer was a need for the large clipper ship <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/67.235.129.14|67.235.129.14]] ([[User talk:67.235.129.14|talk]]) 01:39, 7 September 2011 (UTC)</span>  == Water Witch painting == Is the particular painting of the ''Water Witch'' on the page accurate as to her sail plan? I pulled up a search for other, clearer images of her sail plan but, aside the the one on this page, all images of her showed the mizzenmast as having a fore-and-aft rigged course sail with only square rigged sails above (main and foremasts were consistent with the image in being entirely square rigged). Could the painter have made a mistake (possible painting the ship while given only a description)? Or was the ''Water Witch'' rerigged at some point? -Orodum [[Special:Contributions/2601:0:5600:72:BDF6:BF0F:1C1B:2337|2601:0:5600:72:BDF6:BF0F:1C1B:2337]] ([[User talk:2601:0:5600:72:BDF6:BF0F:1C1B:2337|talk]]) 06:19, 9 December 2012 (UTC) == Origin of Clipper Speed == I suggest the article be expanded with a introductory technical discussion of what attributes of Clippers results in their high speed. Perusing the pictures and text would suggests to me that the large area of sails compared to hull size might be an important factor in speed, but it would be helpful if someone with more nautical engineering knowledge could actually shed some technical insight on this topic.[[User:OttawaAndy388|OttawaAndy388]] ([[User talk:OttawaAndy388|talk]]) 14:27, 21 July 2013 (UTC) :It would also be helpful if the term "deadrise" was explained or linked to another article that explains it. I know nothing about nautical engineering, myself and the use of the term without explanation was annoying. [[User:Wastrel Way|Wastrel Way]] ([[User talk:Wastrel Way|talk]]) 18:42, 2 March 2021 (UTC) Eric ::{{done}} Used [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dead%20rise Merriam-Webster citation]. Thanks for the suggestion, [[User:Wastrel Way|Wastrel Way]]! [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 20:03, 2 March 2021 (UTC) == External links modified == Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just modified 2 external links on [[Clipper]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=794698639 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes: *Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060208111227/http://www.historyscotland.com/features/svcarrick.html to http://www.historyscotland.com/features/svcarrick.html *Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051018172408/http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/descriptions/baltimore.htm to http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/descriptions/baltimore.htm When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs. {{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}} Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 15:03, 9 August 2017 (UTC) == Tattoos == I'm surprised there's no mention of clipper ships in traditional and neotraditional tattooing (see [[Sailor tattoos]], for example). — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:OwenBlacker|OwenBlacker]]</span> <small>([[User talk:OwenBlacker|talk]])</small></span> 18:54, 22 October 2017 (UTC) == Move discussion in progress == There is a move discussion in progress on [[Talk:Clipper (disambiguation)#Requested move 26 June 2019 |Talk:Clipper (disambiguation)]] which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —[[User:RMCD bot|RMCD bot]] 17:46, 26 June 2019 (UTC) == Lead needs a rewrite == I'd not spotted it before, but the lead on this article is in need of a serious rewrite: <br/>The sailing vessels known as clippers were not developed from Baltimore Clippers - certainly not those built in the UK (and see later in the article for the US situation). "Narrow for their length" - not universally - there was quite a range of hull types as builders experimented with different hull forms. "...routes between the United Kingdom and its colonies in the east" - a real howler, this one: the tea trade was mostly into ports in China, which was not a British colony. Some tea was bought in Hong Kong (which was British at the time) but that was not locally produced but brought in from other areas. The "boom years" of the tea trade were caused more by the loss of the East India company monopoly than an increase in demand - the demand was a result of increased availability and a lowered price. There is also the ambiguity over use of the word ship (been a lot of discussion about that). The article should be rephrased to swerve around the inherent ambiguities in the term. It is important to make clear that a few clippers from the clipper ship era were built as barques: for instance ''Ziba'', a well-liked Aberdeen-built clipper, was a jackass barque. "Well-liked" is based on the date that she loaded tea in the various years in that trade - being loaded early meant that the local agents expected a fast passage. (pg 116-117 in MacGregor). Also some clippers, in the years of decline, were reduced to barque but still continued in fast trade. Quickly looking at the rest of the article, decline in the predominance of the clipper was primarily due to 2 things: the Suez canal and the technological advances of maritime steam engines. Alfred Holt was instrumental in the latter, managing to obtain Board of Trade approval for higher steam pressures which gave more fuel efficient steam engines. The relevance of the 1857 slump in trade is, I believe, due to the cessation of the Crimean War, which had given rise to a large demand for ship charters. (Incidentally, Holt used his profits from Crimean War charters to finance his experiments with more efficient steam engines and to finance his first commercial long-distance steam ship.) I thought I should flag this up whilst other work is ongoing on the article - because it would be quite a bit of work to rewrite and reference just the points listed above.<br/>[[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] ([[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|talk]]) 16:27, 10 July 2019 (UTC) == Problem in lead == I have a problem with "...continued to be built into the 1870s, they were largely replaced by newer Iron-hulled sailing ships." Clippers generally carried high value cargoes, often where speed was needed to secure the best prices in a seasonal market. When tea clippers lost out to the next generation - it was to steam ships, not the large capacity windjammers that were built for lower value cargoes. This is very clearly spelt out by MacGregor from page 209 onwards in ''The Tea Clippers, their History and Development 1833-1875''. He gives example rates of freight for steamers and sailing vessels, with steamers usually getting £2 per ton more than the clippers. He mentions the lower insurance costs for the cargoes carried by steamers, and the 45 steamers being built for Far Eastern trade in 1871 on the River Clyde alone (though to be fair, that is where most of the UK's steamships were being built at time). So, as it stands, this sentence implies that clippers were replaced by windjammers, when they were actually replaced by steamships. I am no expert on USA clippers, but I would guess that much of their trade was lost to the railways in 1869 - who wants to sail round Cape Horn when you can much more quickly travel across the continent by train?<br/>[[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] ([[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|talk]]) 20:00, 12 July 2019 (UTC) :Thank you for this observation, [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]]. I have replaced the text to read, "While clipper ships such as [[Hallowe'en (clipper)|''Hallowe'en'']] continued to be built into the 1870s, the next generation of sailing ships were [[Iron-hulled sailing ship|iron-hulled]]." Perhaps this will solve the problem that you identified. Cheers, [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 22:24, 12 July 2019 (UTC) ::I think I have identified the point that the original text was ''trying'' to convey - that a few iron-hulled sailing vessels that could be classified as clippers were built in the 1870s, but these were generally not carrying the traditional clipper cargoes (depending on your definition of wool from Australia in that category). That is really too complex a point for the lead, especially if not fully explained in the article. The section on "Decline" is highly deficient - for instance it was the development of the steamship, not its introduction, that precipitated the end of the clipper. A good re-write is needed. I would have a go, but am currently over-run with things outside Wikipedia - and this needs a proper job doing.<br/>[[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] ([[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|talk]]) 07:44, 13 July 2019 (UTC) ==[[:Category:Clippers]] has been nominated for discussion== <div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">[[File:Ambox warning orange.svg|48px|alt=|link=]]</div>'''[[:Category:Clippers]]''', which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the [[Wikipedia:Categorization|categorization]] guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at '''[[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 July 26#Category:Clippers|the category's entry]]''' on the [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion|categories for discussion]] page. Thank you. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 13:36, 26 July 2019 (UTC) == Edit: "vessel" to "ship"? == I am puzzled by [[User:HopsonRoad]]'s intent with the change of "vessel" to "ship"[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Clipper&diff=908240205&oldid=908224358]. Is this based on the premise that all clippers were [[Full-rigged ship|fully rigged ships]]? If so, it is clear that, though the more famous clippers tended to be rigged in that way, there are many that were not - especially opium clippers (see Basil Lubbock's book on the subject for confirmation that these are correctly called clippers). This would also be clear, for instance, from a reading of MacGregor's ''Fast Sailing Ships'', and the detailed descriptions of tea clippers in his book on the subject (several that were built as barques are listed). If something else is intended, please explain.[[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] ([[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|talk]]) 12:57, 28 July 2019 (UTC) :Thank you for engaging here, [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]]. I appreciated the distinction, regarding full-rigged ships, even before I rewrote the [[Sailing ship]] article (see the "Sail plans" graphic at the beginning of the article). My intent is that "vessel" extends to include boats and is therefore too broad. Clippers were all ships. Additionally, [[sailing vessel]] links to [[Sailing ship]], which makes the word "vessel" seem further lacking in specificity. Sincerely, [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 14:04, 28 July 2019 (UTC) ::Noted - thanks for answer, [[User:HopsonRoad]]. At this point I think the problem is more with the English language than anything else (ambiguity of "ship"). Perhpas the article probably needs an explanation of the diversity of possible rigs, despite the preponderance of fully rigged ships. There are plenty of other problems with this article, which I will chip away at when I get an opportunity.[[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] ([[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|talk]]) 17:46, 28 July 2019 (UTC) == More problems == There is a problem with {{Quote frame |While the first application of the term "clipper" in a nautical sense is by no means certain, it seems to have had an American origin when applied to the Baltimore clippers of the late 18th century...... }} This implies that the word "clipper" was applied to sailing vessels in the late 18th century. In [[Howard I. Chapelle]]'s definitive book on the Baltimore Clipper he states (on page 65) {{quote box|.....The most common name, "Baltimore Clipper" was popular at the time the type was dying out, in the last days of the slave trade, say from 1835 to 1850.|align = center}} Chapelle makes clear that in the time when most Baltimore Clippers were built, they were variously described as "Virginia-built", "Virginia model", "pilot boat model", with "Baltimore model" appearing during the War of 1812. I am embarrassed to be throwing further criticism at this article when having contributed nothing of significance to its contents, but this point, in conjunction with others, suggests the need for a thorough review of content and sourcing. I am particularly puzzled by the appearance of David MacGregor's book "Fast Sailing Ships" in the references, but on close examination of the article, find that this simply points to an online copy of the index of this book, with little evidence that any contributing editor has actually read it. MacGregor is probably the definitive author on British clippers. (I note, also, that Howard Chapelle wrote the introduction to this book, giving it further authority - because the two of them represent a big chunk of the expertise in this part of maritime history). I appreciate that the views stated by MacGregor in the introduction to the first edition of Fast Sailing Ships may not go down to well with clipper-related Wikipedia contributors: {{quote box|This myth of the 'first clipper' has been created by the custom for reserving the title of 'clipper' exclusively for ships built in the years 1840-1875....|align = center}} Nor would Chapelle's comments in the introduction to the same book be appreciated by the same audience: {{quote box|...English construction and evolution of clipper ship design paralleled American development and construction of the extreme clipper model......The claims that English designs were influenced by American principles are completely exploded.|align = center}} [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] ([[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|talk]]) 09:29, 7 May 2020 (UTC) :Thanks for these observations, [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]]. There seems to be few better-qualified than you to improve this article. It's an important one, so it would be great, if you did! I realize that you have been occupied elsewhere. Cheers, [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 15:45, 10 May 2020 (UTC) ::Thanks for taking the criticism well. Lots of organised reading to do before any big editing changes could be done here and I am only doing sporadic and more minor editing at the moment. But this is on my list of things to do. No idea when this will get to the top. (Unpredictable world at the moment!)[[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] ([[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|talk]]) 08:04, 11 May 2020 (UTC) ::: Naval ships get a lot of attention on Wikipedia, merchant ships, very little. The standard of articles in this area is generally pretty bad, with bits and pieces added randomly by people with little knowledge of the topic and little commitment. Having said that, almost every ship article I look at contains factual errors, naval or otherwise. Lots of articles have been created very quickly and without much attempt to corroborate material, it really amazes me how much work has gone into the WP:SHIPS area over all these years and yet how much remains to be done. [[User:Gatoclass|Gatoclass]] ([[User talk:Gatoclass|talk]]) 15:08, 11 May 2020 (UTC) == Requested move 28 November 2020 == <div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"> :''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. '' The result of the move request was: '''No consensus'''. Although there were more oppose !votes than supporters of any of the other options, some of these !votes were simply assertions that this usage is the long-term primary one for "clipper", without supporting evidence or arguments. Such !votes will not be given much weight. However, there's also a concern that "ship" may not be the technically correct terminology. And although pageviews are one of the main factors to consider in terms of [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]], it's not the only thing. ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 20:24, 6 December 2020 (UTC) ---- * [[:Clipper]] → {{no redirect|Clipper ship}} * [[:Clipper (disambiguation)]] → {{no redirect|Clipper}} – Per [[WP:COMMONNAME]], [[WP:NOPRIMARY]] and [[WP:ASTONISH]]. "Clipper ship(s)" is the common name of the ship in a generic context as demonstrated by the fact that Britannica uses "[https://www.britannica.com/technology/clipper-ship Clipper ship]". "Clipper ship(s)" is also commonly used on Wikipedia such as [[Template:Clipper ships]], [[List of clipper ships]], and [[List of people who sailed on clipper ships]] and several qualified titles such as [[Torrens (clipper ship)]]. And in the previous RM many users said that they thought "Clipper ship" was the common name anyway and a significant number of sources use "Clipper ship(s)". {{No redirect|Clipper ship}} has [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Clipper_ship&limit=250 187] total incoming links and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AWhatLinksHere&limit=250&target=Clipper+ship&namespace=0 150] mainspace links. {{No redirect|Clipper ships}} has [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Clipper_ships 33] total incoming links and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AWhatLinksHere&target=Clipper+ships&namespace=0 27] mainspace links. At [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2017 September 8#Category:Wool clippers]] there was a proposal to merge "[[:Category:Wool clippers]]" to [[:Category:Clippers]] suggesting editors expect the tool not the ship to be what "Clipper(s)" refers to. "Clipper ship(s)" appears 58x in the article (excluding the externals links, template and Commons links). Even if one was to assume that "Clipper" alone is the most appropriate title for the ship the ship fails [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]] and [[WP:ASTONISH]]. Google returns things like tea, lighters and the other tools, Images returns the lighter and hair clippers. Books on the other hand does mainly return the ship but as noted above most of those use "Clipper ship(s)" for the ship anyway. Many editors argued that "Clipper" alone refers to the ship but that clearly isn't true since hair and nail clippers are also called "Clipper(s)" alone if the context is clear, I have a hair clipper kit and it says "8 piece clipper kit" without mention to "Hair clipper" in other words the ship is only called "Clipper(s)" alone if the context is clear which also applies to the other types, if this was an encyclopedia about ships then we may well use "Clipper" alone just like we might use "Clipper" alone if we were an encyclopedia about hair cutting etc. The ship has 8,933 views but [[Clipper (electronics)]] has 3,241 (suggesting its not "much more likely than any other"), [[Clipper (lighter)]] has 2,999, [[Clipper (programming language)]] has 1,464, [[Clipper (automobile)]] has 54, [[Clipper (video game)]] has 40, [[Clipper, Washington]] has 25, [[Clipper (steam automobile)]] has 22 and [[Clipper (nickname)]] has 15. That makes 7,862 views for topic qualified v 8,933 for the ship. [[Hair clipper]] has 4,187 and [[Nail clipper]] has 3,751. [[https://pageviews.toolforge.org/massviews/?platform=all-access&agent=user&source=wikilinks&range=latest-20&sort=views&direction=1&view=list&target=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_(disambiguation)]] So even if you assume that the ship is usually called "Clipper(s)" alone and hair and nail clippers aren't known as "Clipper(s)" very often there is still unlikely to be a primary topic by usage and the tools also have long-term significance, quite probably more than the ship again because their every day items unlike the 19th century ship. Also [[Clipper chip]] has 3,119 views and [[Los Angeles Clippers]] has 39,748 but those probably aren't known as "Clipper(s)" very much at least the sports team probably isn't known as "Clipper" (singular) much. The ship fails ASTONISH because its not well known relative to the cutting devices (and also fastening ones but we don't appear to cover those) hair and nail clippers are everyday words while many won't even have heard of the ship, I hadn't until I can across it on Wikipedia. While I realize I made a RM at the DAB page previously that was 17 months ago and was solely about disambiguation while this proposal is also about common name (hence the reason the RM isn't on the DAB page this time) and the previous RM was close with the outcome of no consensus with the reason "The page view stats can support each side" but that also has been addressed by the fact that the ship isn't the only meaning known mainly by this alone in a specific context. I think both the move to "Clipper ship" for the ship and the DAB to plain "Clipper"(A) should both take place but if not I'll provide a list of options below: *'''A''' move the ship to [[Clipper ship]] and [[Clipper (disambiguation)]] to [[Clipper]]. *'''B''' move the ship to [[Clipper ship]] as with A ''but'' leave the DAB at [[Clipper (disambiguation)]] and allow [[Clipper]] to redirect to [[Clipper ship]] per [[WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT]]. *'''C''' move the ship to [[Clipper (ship)]] and the DAB page to [[Clipper]]. This is the same as the last RM but given "Clipper ship" being the common name I don't think that this is needed at least per [[WP:NATURAL]]. *'''Oppose''' it should be left as is with the ship at [[Clipper]] and the DAB at [[Clipper (disambiguation)]]. Please indicate you're options by putting '''A''', '''B''', '''C''' or '''Oppose''' per the discussion at [[Wikipedia talk:Requested moves/Archive 32#The utility and accuracy of ranked surveys]] or even list you're preferred outcomes in order such as "B, A, D, C" in which "D" can be used for "Oppose". '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 17:51, 28 November 2020 (UTC) *'''Comment''' - I don't know about this one... the most common names I can think of are clippers (used for hair/nails) and the Los Angeles Clippers. Both of these are with the s plural which as you pointed out probably aren't known as "Clipper(s)". If I were to make an estimate... those looking up [[Clipper (electronics)]] more than likely have an interest in that field or were redirected from another article. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 21:18, 28 November 2020 (UTC) *'''C''' – Wiktionary has seven senses for [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/clipper "clipper"], starting with "anything that clips" and including ships and weather fronts. Since it's not necessary to add "ship", when talking in a nautical context about a clipper, I support "Clipper (ship)" as the most direct primary title. [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 21:34, 28 November 2020 (UTC) *'''Comment''' A "clipper ship" is a subset of "clipper" (meaning a fast sailing vessel). The term "clipper ship" is something of an American term, as the clippers that sailed round Cape Horn to the California Gold Rush were largely rigged as [[fully rigged ship|ships]]. Some tea clippers were rigged as barques, Opium clippers were often schooners or brigs, Baltimore Clippers were largely schooners, etc., etc. Unfortunately, in modern usage "ship", when applied to a sailing vessel, is ambiguous - it may define the rig or it may just mean a large vessel. Given that, it would be entirely improper to have an article name that is, in the context of a historical sailing vessel, lacking in clear meaning and may exclude (in one of the possible meanings) valid content of the article.<br/>Incidentally, [[List of clipper ships]] was specifically set up to exclude any clippers that were not rigged as ships. See that article's talk page and edit history for confirmation.[[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] ([[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|talk]]) 21:49, 28 November 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose'''. The vessel type appears to be primary, and the aircraft and teams took their names from it. There is no need for a change. [[User:Kablammo|Kablammo]] ([[User talk:Kablammo|talk]]) 23:20, 28 November 2020 (UTC) *:What about all the other uses and hair and nail clippers that in total get more views and didn't get their name from it? '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 10:55, 29 November 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose'''. In singular, the vessel is surely the primary topic. Clippers correctly redirects to the disambiguation page since there's a lot more options there, but the singular one in common parlance is the ship. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] ([[User talk:SnowFire|talk]]) 03:35, 29 November 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose'''. This is worthy of debate, but I think in the singular the ship is the primary topic by long-term significance. And I can see difficulties with any use of "ship" (common usage vs. purist usage). [[User:Shhhnotsoloud|Shhhnotsoloud]] ([[User talk:Shhhnotsoloud|talk]]) 15:08, 30 November 2020 (UTC) *:{{Ping|Shhhnotsoloud}} what are the difficulties with common v purist usage? As I've shown in sources the ship is usually "Clipper ship(s)" rather than plain "Clipper(s)" which would be general common usage while "Clipper" alone if the context is established (in purist usage). As shown "Clipper ship(s)" have numerous links despite the article being at "Clipper" since editors often don't link to redirects or change the wording in an article to match it for example [[Cutty Sark]] uses the term "[[Clipper]] ship" and a mainspace search for "Clipper ship" returns 607 results. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 18:16, 2 December 2020 (UTC) *::{{re|Crouch, Swale}} Hello C,S. It's just that the sheer amount of time and effort spent exploring if a ship can be called a ship—in places like [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ships/Archive 62#All ships are ships in article titles]]—tells me to avoid the use of "ship"! [[User:Shhhnotsoloud|Shhhnotsoloud]] ([[User talk:Shhhnotsoloud|talk]]) 19:22, 2 December 2020 (UTC) *:::That discussion seemed to be about how to disambiguate (individual) ships but interestingly [[Full-rigged ship]] is linked at that discussion. Note that with [[Schooner]] Britannica uses "[https://www.britannica.com/technology/schooner Schooner]" alone but does use "ship" in the title (as opposed to description) for this type, when I check other sources like Books they use "Schooner(s)" alone probably because that's relatively unambiguous unlike clipper so I think common usage is for "ship" here. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 19:37, 2 December 2020 (UTC) *::::"As I've shown in sources....". It all depends on which sources you choose to look at. Maritime historians generally use "clipper" without "ship", unless they are denoting the rig. You can see this from book titles: David R MacGregor (the definitive expert on Tea Clippers): ''British and American Clippers'' and ''The Tea Clippers'' ( ISBN 0 85177 256 0); Basil Lubbock (prolific writer on clippers): ''The Opium Clippers'', ''The China Clippers'' (ISBN 0851741096) (and other similar titles); [[Howard I. Chapelle]] (possibly the most influential of the USA's maritime historians): ''The Baltimore Clipper'', also if you look in the index of his ''The Search for Speed Under Sail'', you find entries for "clipper bark", "clipper brig", "clipper schooner" and (unsurprisingly) "clipper ships" (and if you read the entries he means sailing vessels rigged as ships). I don't follow the argument based on searches of Wikipedia to establish English usage, since we all know that Wikipedia cannot be used as an RS.[[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] ([[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|talk]]) 19:44, 2 December 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose'''. The singular "clipper" almost always refers to the ship. Since no one has pointed it out yet, a similar request [[Talk:Clipper_(disambiguation)|took place last year]] and was closed as no consensus. [[User:Calidum|<span style="color:#01796F; font-family:serif">'''-- ''Calidum'''''</span>]] 16:19, 30 November 2020 (UTC) *:Can you provide evidence to support the claim that "Clipper" (singular) almost always refers to the ship? In my experience it never does and the evidence of page views and Google also don't support this. While the tools are normally in the plural they aren't always which is why the articles are at [[Hair clipper]] and [[Nail clipper]]. While I realize I hadn't linked to it, this was pointed out in my statement {{tq|I made a RM at the DAB page previously that was 17 months ago and was solely about disambiguation while this proposal is also about common name (hence the reason the RM isn't on the DAB page this time)}} and this request has significantly more information than the previous. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 17:55, 30 November 2020 (UTC) *Also note that [[Hedge trimmer]] has 643 views[[https://pageviews.toolforge.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&range=latest-20&pages=Hedge_trimmer]]. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 17:55, 30 November 2020 (UTC) *'''Comment''' [[User:Crouch, Swale]] highlights the fact that, whereas among Wikipedia articles the ship sense of "clipper" may be primary, in the English language at large it is not. That's why I recommend "Clipper (ship)". [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 18:06, 30 November 2020 (UTC) *:[[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] yes that's my point, when the context is clear that you mean the ship you can use "Clipper(s)" alone, since Wikipedia articles are aimed at a general audience then we can use natural disambiguation as noted [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Clipper_(disambiguation)&diff=904327287&oldid=904325964 here]. You would also use "Clipper(s)" alone if you were in the hair sense rather than "Hair clipper(s)". If "Clipper" and "Clipper ship" are both acceptable then using the alternative from instead of qualifying it makes sense as an effective tie breaker per [[WP:ATDAB]] even if the ship if more often called "Clipper" alone in a general context than hair and nail clippers. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 18:38, 30 November 2020 (UTC) * '''C''' Per [[WP:NOPRIMARY]].<sub><small>[[User:Zxcvbnm|ZXCVBNM]] ([[User Talk:Zxcvbnm|TALK]])</small></sub> 10:23, 1 December 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose'''. [[Talk:Clipper (disambiguation)|We've already had this discussion]]. Nothing has changed. The ship is the clear primary topic for the term "Clipper". The other main uses are generally referred to as "Clippers". -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 14:09, 2 December 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose'''. As stated last time we had this discussion (and per Necrothesp, above) hair clippers, horse clippers, etc. are usually in the plural. We have several, and I have checked the boxes and instructions: all in the plural.[[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] ([[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|talk]]) 14:43, 2 December 2020 (UTC) *:Usually in the plural maybe but even the articles here are in the singular namely [[Hair clipper]] and [[Nail clipper]]. That doesn't make the ship primary anymore than the likes of [[Shoe]] and [[Twin]] that have singular articles here even though they are usually in the plural or are we suddenly assuming people mostly search for terms that are more often than not in the plural in the plural? '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 18:16, 2 December 2020 (UTC) *::Looking at [[Hair clipper]] etc. to determine English usage is using Wikipedia as an [[WP:RS]], which it is not.[[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] ([[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|talk]]) 19:56, 2 December 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' - There appears to be no compelling argument since the last discussion. Charts and graphs were thrown out before with evidence trying to discredit "Clipper' as the primary topic. If we are talking about consistency "Clipper" is the clear winner. [https://pageviews.toolforge.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&range=latest-90&pages=Clipper|Clipper_(programming_language)|Clipper_(electronics)|Clipper_(lighter)|Clipper_(automobile)|Clipper,_Washington|Clipper_(nickname)|Clipper_(steam_automobile)|Nail_clipper|Hair_clipper] - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 21:24, 2 December 2020 (UTC) {{abot}} == bit of a rewrite == I have tackled some points in the article today. I particularly targeted text referenced by ''Men Ships and the Sea'' by Alan Villiers and others. Taking a look at this reference, it is mostly written by un-named authors - Villiers is just the "headline" name to sell the book. It has some "fuzzy"/wrong concepts - like implying that only clippers used studding sails, when the majority of square rigged ships until the last quarter of the 19th century had them. (I've just checked some current reading: ''The Merchant Schooners'' by Basil Greenhill - there is a diagram of studding sails drawn by one of the sources consulted by the author when he researched the book before its first publication in 1951. You can also see studding sail gear on a few old photos of ordinary merchant vessels - though the camera became common after their useage reduced.) On top of that, the definition (from Villiers, or whomever) can easily be substituted by consulting named, recognised maritime historians - which is what I have done.[[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] ([[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|talk]]) 20:21, 7 February 2021 (UTC) :Need to tackle the usage of Baltimore clippers as slavers next. This was a significant trade - it is covered by Chapelle in his book on Baltimore clippers and also by MacGregor in ''Fast Sailing Ships''. Putting a proper section in for each major type of clipper may be appropriate - so that would be <br/>Baltimore clippers (privateers, blockade runners, slavers)<br/>Opium clippers (another unsavoury trade)<br/>American clippers (California gold rush, to which is added the tea trade)<br/>Tea clippers<br/>all the other clippers (for instance South American coffee trade, Florida and West Indian fruit trade see pg 322 of ''Search for Speed Under Sail'' - more refs to find on this point.)[[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] ([[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|talk]]) 20:31, 7 February 2021 (UTC) :Villiers does not state or imply that only clippers used studding sails. [[User:Kablammo|Kablammo]] ([[User talk:Kablammo|talk]]) 16:27, 23 March 2021 (UTC) ::[[File:Reefing topsails.jpg|thumb|Caricature of reefing a topsail. The studding sail boom has been triced out of the way - print made in 1832 when studding sails were common in all sorts of merchant vessels.]]Wrong of me to imply it was Villiers who was at fault, more the editor who cited him - but it seemed to me that the article implied that studding sails were used mostly by clippers, when they were common on all working sailing vessels in the middle of the 19th century. Even if this assessment is wrong, I would hope that the replacement text is more of a more encyclopaedic tone.[[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] ([[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|talk]]) 18:43, 23 March 2021 (UTC) </textarea><div class="templatesUsed"><div class="mw-templatesUsedExplanation"><p><span id="templatesused">Pages transcluded onto the current version of this page<span class="posteditwindowhelplinks"> (<a href="/wiki/Help:Transclusion" title="Help:Transclusion">help</a>)</span>:</span> </p></div><ul> <li><a href="/wiki/Clipper" title="Clipper">Clipper</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Clipper&action=edit" title="Clipper">edit</a>) </li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Vital_articles/data/C.json" title="Wikipedia:Vital articles/data/C.json">Wikipedia:Vital articles/data/C.json</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Vital_articles/data/C.json&action=edit" title="Wikipedia:Vital articles/data/C.json">view source</a>) (extended confirmed protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:-" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:-">Template:-</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:-&action=edit" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:-">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Abot" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Abot">Template:Abot</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Abot&action=edit" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Abot">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Archive_bottom" title="Template:Archive bottom">Template:Archive bottom</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Archive_bottom&action=edit" title="Template:Archive bottom">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Blockquote" title="Template:Blockquote">Template:Blockquote</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Blockquote&action=edit" title="Template:Blockquote">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Blockquote/styles.css" title="Template:Blockquote/styles.css">Template:Blockquote/styles.css</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Blockquote/styles.css&action=edit" title="Template:Blockquote/styles.css">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Clear" title="Template:Clear">Template:Clear</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Clear&action=edit" title="Template:Clear">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Comma_separated_entries" title="Template:Comma separated entries">Template:Comma separated entries</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Comma_separated_entries&action=edit" title="Template:Comma separated entries">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Done" title="Template:Done">Template:Done</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Done&action=edit" title="Template:Done">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Encodefirst" title="Template:Encodefirst">Template:Encodefirst</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Encodefirst&action=edit" title="Template:Encodefirst">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:If_empty" title="Template:If empty">Template:If empty</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:If_empty&action=edit" title="Template:If empty">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Main_other" title="Template:Main other">Template:Main other</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Main_other&action=edit" title="Template:Main other">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:No_redirect" title="Template:No redirect">Template:No redirect</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:No_redirect&action=edit" title="Template:No redirect">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Nowrap" title="Template:Nowrap">Template:Nowrap</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Nowrap&action=edit" title="Template:Nowrap">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Ping" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Ping">Template:Ping</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Ping&action=edit" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Ping">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Portal" title="Template:Portal">Template:Portal</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Portal&action=edit" title="Template:Portal">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Quotation" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Quotation">Template:Quotation</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Quotation&action=edit" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Quotation">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Quote_box" title="Template:Quote box">Template:Quote box</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Quote_box&action=edit" title="Template:Quote box">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Quote_box/styles.css" title="Template:Quote box/styles.css">Template:Quote box/styles.css</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Quote_box/styles.css&action=edit" title="Template:Quote box/styles.css">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Quote_frame" title="Template:Quote frame">Template:Quote frame</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Quote_frame&action=edit" title="Template:Quote frame">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Re" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Re">Template:Re</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Re&action=edit" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Re">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Reply_to" title="Template:Reply to">Template:Reply to</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Reply_to&action=edit" title="Template:Reply to">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Source_check" title="Template:Source check">Template:Source check</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Source_check&action=edit" title="Template:Source check">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Sourcecheck" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Sourcecheck">Template:Sourcecheck</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Sourcecheck&action=edit" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Sourcecheck">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Talk_quote_inline" title="Template:Talk quote inline">Template:Talk quote inline</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Talk_quote_inline&action=edit" title="Template:Talk quote inline">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Talk_quote_inline/styles.css" title="Template:Talk quote inline/styles.css">Template:Talk quote inline/styles.css</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Talk_quote_inline/styles.css&action=edit" title="Template:Talk quote inline/styles.css">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Template_link" title="Template:Template link">Template:Template link</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Template_link&action=edit" title="Template:Template link">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Template_link_expanded" title="Template:Template link expanded">Template:Template link expanded</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Template_link_expanded&action=edit" title="Template:Template link expanded">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Tl" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Tl">Template:Tl</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Tl&action=edit" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Tl">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Tlx" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Tlx">Template:Tlx</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Tlx&action=edit" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Tlx">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Tq" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Tq">Template:Tq</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Tq&action=edit" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Tq">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Trim" title="Template:Trim">Template:Trim</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Trim&action=edit" title="Template:Trim">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:WikiProject_Ships" title="Template:WikiProject Ships">Template:WikiProject Ships</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:WikiProject_Ships&action=edit" title="Template:WikiProject Ships">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:WikiProject_Transport" title="Template:WikiProject Transport">Template:WikiProject Transport</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:WikiProject_Transport&action=edit" title="Template:WikiProject Transport">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:WikiProject_banner_shell" title="Template:WikiProject banner shell">Template:WikiProject banner shell</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:WikiProject_banner_shell&action=edit" title="Template:WikiProject banner shell">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:Arguments" title="Module:Arguments">Module:Arguments</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:Arguments&action=edit" title="Module:Arguments">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:Banner_shell" title="Module:Banner shell">Module:Banner shell</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:Banner_shell&action=edit" title="Module:Banner shell">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:Banner_shell/config" title="Module:Banner shell/config">Module:Banner shell/config</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:Banner_shell/config&action=edit" title="Module:Banner shell/config">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:Banner_shell/styles.css" title="Module:Banner shell/styles.css">Module:Banner shell/styles.css</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:Banner_shell/styles.css&action=edit" title="Module:Banner shell/styles.css">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:Check_for_unknown_parameters" title="Module:Check for unknown parameters">Module:Check for unknown parameters</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:Check_for_unknown_parameters&action=edit" title="Module:Check for unknown parameters">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:Disambiguation/templates" title="Module:Disambiguation/templates">Module:Disambiguation/templates</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:Disambiguation/templates&action=edit" title="Module:Disambiguation/templates">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:If_empty" title="Module:If empty">Module:If empty</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:If_empty&action=edit" title="Module:If empty">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:Message_box" title="Module:Message box">Module:Message box</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:Message_box&action=edit" title="Module:Message box">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:Message_box/tmbox.css" title="Module:Message box/tmbox.css">Module:Message box/tmbox.css</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:Message_box/tmbox.css&action=edit" title="Module:Message box/tmbox.css">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:MultiReplace" title="Module:MultiReplace">Module:MultiReplace</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:MultiReplace&action=edit" title="Module:MultiReplace">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:Pagetype" title="Module:Pagetype">Module:Pagetype</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:Pagetype&action=edit" title="Module:Pagetype">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:Pagetype/config" title="Module:Pagetype/config">Module:Pagetype/config</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:Pagetype/config&action=edit" title="Module:Pagetype/config">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:Pagetype/disambiguation" class="mw-redirect" title="Module:Pagetype/disambiguation">Module:Pagetype/disambiguation</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:Pagetype/disambiguation&action=edit" class="mw-redirect" title="Module:Pagetype/disambiguation">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:Pagetype/rfd" title="Module:Pagetype/rfd">Module:Pagetype/rfd</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:Pagetype/rfd&action=edit" title="Module:Pagetype/rfd">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:Pagetype/setindex" title="Module:Pagetype/setindex">Module:Pagetype/setindex</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:Pagetype/setindex&action=edit" title="Module:Pagetype/setindex">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:Pagetype/softredirect" title="Module:Pagetype/softredirect">Module:Pagetype/softredirect</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:Pagetype/softredirect&action=edit" title="Module:Pagetype/softredirect">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:Portal" title="Module:Portal">Module:Portal</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:Portal&action=edit" title="Module:Portal">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:Portal/images/aliases" title="Module:Portal/images/aliases">Module:Portal/images/aliases</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:Portal/images/aliases&action=edit" title="Module:Portal/images/aliases">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:Portal/images/t" title="Module:Portal/images/t">Module:Portal/images/t</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:Portal/images/t&action=edit" title="Module:Portal/images/t">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:Portal/styles.css" title="Module:Portal/styles.css">Module:Portal/styles.css</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:Portal/styles.css&action=edit" title="Module:Portal/styles.css">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:Redirect" title="Module:Redirect">Module:Redirect</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:Redirect&action=edit" title="Module:Redirect">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:Reply_to" title="Module:Reply to">Module:Reply to</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:Reply_to&action=edit" title="Module:Reply to">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:Separated_entries" title="Module:Separated entries">Module:Separated entries</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:Separated_entries&action=edit" title="Module:Separated entries">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:TableTools" title="Module:TableTools">Module:TableTools</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:TableTools&action=edit" title="Module:TableTools">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:Template_link_general" title="Module:Template link general">Module:Template link general</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:Template_link_general&action=edit" title="Module:Template link general">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:Template_parameter_value" title="Module:Template parameter value">Module:Template parameter value</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:Template_parameter_value&action=edit" title="Module:Template parameter value">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:WikiProject_banner" title="Module:WikiProject banner">Module:WikiProject banner</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:WikiProject_banner&action=edit" title="Module:WikiProject banner">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:WikiProject_banner/config" title="Module:WikiProject banner/config">Module:WikiProject banner/config</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:WikiProject_banner/config&action=edit" title="Module:WikiProject banner/config">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:WikiProject_banner/styles.css" title="Module:WikiProject banner/styles.css">Module:WikiProject banner/styles.css</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:WikiProject_banner/styles.css&action=edit" title="Module:WikiProject banner/styles.css">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:Wikitext_Parsing" title="Module:Wikitext Parsing">Module:Wikitext Parsing</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:Wikitext_Parsing&action=edit" title="Module:Wikitext Parsing">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Module:Yesno" title="Module:Yesno">Module:Yesno</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Module:Yesno&action=edit" title="Module:Yesno">view source</a>) (protected)</li></ul></div><p id="mw-returnto">Return to <a href="/wiki/Talk:Clipper" title="Talk:Clipper">Talk:Clipper</a>.</p> <noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Clipper">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Clipper</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks catlinks-allhidden" data-mw="interface"></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> </ul> <ul id="footer-places"> <li id="footer-places-privacy"><a href="https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Policy:Privacy_policy">Privacy policy</a></li> <li id="footer-places-about"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:About">About Wikipedia</a></li> <li id="footer-places-disclaimers"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:General_disclaimer">Disclaimers</a></li> <li id="footer-places-contact"><a href="//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Contact_us">Contact Wikipedia</a></li> <li id="footer-places-wm-codeofconduct"><a href="https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Policy:Universal_Code_of_Conduct">Code of Conduct</a></li> <li id="footer-places-developers"><a href="https://developer.wikimedia.org">Developers</a></li> <li id="footer-places-statslink"><a href="https://stats.wikimedia.org/#/en.wikipedia.org">Statistics</a></li> <li id="footer-places-cookiestatement"><a href="https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Policy:Cookie_statement">Cookie statement</a></li> <li id="footer-places-mobileview"><a href="//en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Clipper&action=edit&mobileaction=toggle_view_mobile" class="noprint stopMobileRedirectToggle">Mobile view</a></li> </ul> <ul id="footer-icons" class="noprint"> <li id="footer-copyrightico"><a href="https://wikimediafoundation.org/" class="cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button--enabled"><img src="/static/images/footer/wikimedia-button.svg" width="84" height="29" alt="Wikimedia Foundation" loading="lazy"></a></li> <li id="footer-poweredbyico"><a href="https://www.mediawiki.org/" class="cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button--enabled"><img src="/w/resources/assets/poweredby_mediawiki.svg" alt="Powered by MediaWiki" width="88" height="31" loading="lazy"></a></li> </ul> </footer> </div> </div> </div> <div class="vector-settings" id="p-dock-bottom"> <ul></ul> </div><script>(RLQ=window.RLQ||[]).push(function(){mw.config.set({"wgHostname":"mw-web.codfw.main-f69cdc8f6-9bpbq","wgBackendResponseTime":413,"wgPageParseReport":{"limitreport":{"cputime":"0.068","walltime":"0.093","ppvisitednodes":{"value":418,"limit":1000000},"postexpandincludesize":{"value":17744,"limit":2097152},"templateargumentsize":{"value":6556,"limit":2097152},"expansiondepth":{"value":9,"limit":100},"expensivefunctioncount":{"value":0,"limit":500},"unstrip-depth":{"value":0,"limit":20},"unstrip-size":{"value":469,"limit":5000000},"entityaccesscount":{"value":0,"limit":400},"timingprofile":["100.00% 64.883 1 -total"," 99.87% 64.798 2 Template:Blocked_text"," 41.00% 26.603 1 Template:Colocationwebhost"," 40.45% 26.245 2 Template:Replace"," 37.28% 24.190 1 Template:Hidden"," 16.83% 10.920 1 Template:Tlx"," 13.73% 8.909 1 Template:Hidden_begin"," 3.27% 2.120 1 Template:Hidden_end"," 2.40% 1.560 1 MediaWiki:Wikimedia-globalblocking-blockedtext-mistake-email-steward"," 2.32% 1.506 1 MediaWiki:Wikimedia-globalblocking-blockedtext-mistake"]},"scribunto":{"limitreport-timeusage":{"value":"0.013","limit":"10.000"},"limitreport-memusage":{"value":1043250,"limit":52428800}},"cachereport":{"origin":"mw-web.codfw.main-f69cdc8f6-9bpbq","timestamp":"20241124172015","ttl":2592000,"transientcontent":false}}});});</script> </body> </html>