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</div> </div> <div id="bodyContent" class="vector-body" aria-labelledby="firstHeading" data-mw-ve-target-container> <div class="vector-body-before-content"> <div class="mw-indicators"> </div> </div> <div id="contentSub"><div id="mw-content-subtitle">← <a href="/wiki/Help_talk:Citation_Style_1" title="Help talk:Citation Style 1">Help talk:Citation Style 1</a></div></div> <div id="mw-content-text" class="mw-body-content"><p>You do not have permission to edit this page, for the following reasons: </p> <ul class="permissions-errors"><li class="mw-permissionerror-blockedtext"> <div id="mw-blocked-text" style="border: 1px solid #AAA; background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, ivory); color: inherit; padding: 1.5em; width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box;"> <div style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: 26px;"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Stop_hand_nuvola.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img 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Review the information below for assistance if you do not believe that you have done anything wrong.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> <p>The IP address or range 8.222.128.0/17 has been <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Blocking_policy" title="Wikipedia:Blocking policy">blocked</a> by <a href="/wiki/User:L235" title="User:L235">‪L235‬</a> for the following reason(s): </p> <div style="padding:10px; background:var(--background-color-base, white); color:inherit; border:1px #666 solid;"> <div class="user-block colocation-webhost" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; background-color: #ffefd5; border: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0.7em;"> <figure class="mw-halign-left" typeof="mw:File"><span><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Server-multiple.svg/40px-Server-multiple.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="57" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Server-multiple.svg/60px-Server-multiple.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Server-multiple.svg/80px-Server-multiple.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="744" data-file-height="1052" /></span><figcaption></figcaption></figure><b>The <a href="/wiki/IP_address" title="IP address">IP address</a> that you are currently using has been blocked because it is believed to be a <a href="/wiki/Web_hosting_service" title="Web hosting service">web host provider</a> or <a href="/wiki/Colocation_centre" title="Colocation centre">colocation provider</a>.</b> To prevent abuse, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Open_proxies" title="Wikipedia:Open proxies">web hosts and colocation providers may be blocked</a> from editing Wikipedia. <div style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; clear: both">You will not be able to edit Wikipedia using a web host or colocation provider because it hides your IP address, much like a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Open_proxies" title="Wikipedia:Open proxies">proxy</a> or <a href="/wiki/Virtual_private_network" title="Virtual private network">VPN</a>. <p><b>We recommend that you attempt to use another connection to edit.</b> For example, if you use a proxy or VPN to connect to the internet, turn it off when editing Wikipedia. If you edit using a mobile connection, try using a Wi-Fi connection, and vice versa. If you are using a corporate internet connection, switch to a different Wi-Fi network. If you have a Wikipedia account, please log in. </p><p>If you do not have any other way to edit Wikipedia, you will need to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:IP_block_exemption#Requesting_and_granting_exemption" title="Wikipedia:IP block exemption">request an IP block exemption</a>. </p> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1214851843">.mw-parser-output .hidden-begin{box-sizing:border-box;width:100%;padding:5px;border:none;font-size:95%}.mw-parser-output .hidden-title{font-weight:bold;line-height:1.6;text-align:left}.mw-parser-output .hidden-content{text-align:left}@media all and (max-width:500px){.mw-parser-output .hidden-begin{width:auto!important;clear:none!important;float:none!important}}</style><div class="hidden-begin mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style=""><div class="hidden-title skin-nightmode-reset-color" style="text-align:center;">How to appeal if you are confident that your connection does not use a colocation provider's IP address:</div><div class="hidden-content mw-collapsible-content" style=""> If you are confident that you are not using a web host, you may <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Appealing_a_block" title="Wikipedia:Appealing a block">appeal this block</a> by adding the following text on your <a href="/wiki/Help:Talk_pages" title="Help:Talk pages">talk page</a>: <code>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Unblock" title="Template:Unblock">unblock</a>|reason=Caught by a colocation web host block but this host or IP is not a web host. My IP address is _______. <i>Place any further information here.</i> ~~~~}}</code>. <b>You must fill in the blank with your IP address for this block to be investigated.</b> Your IP address can be determined <span class="plainlinks"><b><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Get_my_IP_address?withJS=MediaWiki:Get-my-ip.js">here</a></b></span>. Alternatively, if you wish to keep your IP address private you can use the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Unblock_Ticket_Request_System" title="Wikipedia:Unblock Ticket Request System">unblock ticket request system</a>. There are several reasons you might be editing using the IP address of a web host or colocation provider (such as if you are using VPN software or a business network); please use this method of appeal only if you think your IP address is in fact not a web host or colocation provider.</div></div> <p><span class="sysop-show" style="font-size: 85%;"><span style="border:#707070 solid 1px;background-color:#ffe0e0;padding:2px"><b>Administrators:</b></span> The <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:IP_block_exemption" title="Wikipedia:IP block exemption">IP block exemption</a> user right should only be applied to allow users to edit using web host in exceptional circumstances, and requests should usually be directed to the functionaries team via email. If you intend to give the IPBE user right, a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CheckUser" title="Wikipedia:CheckUser">CheckUser</a> needs to take a look at the account. This can be requested most easily at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SPI#Quick_CheckUser_requests" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SPI">SPI Quick Checkuser Requests</a>. <b>Unblocking</b> an IP or IP range with this template <b>is highly discouraged</b> without at least contacting the blocking administrator.</span> </p> </div></div> </div> <p>This block will expire on 18:23, 24 August 2026. Your current IP address is 8.222.208.146. </p> <div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div><div style="font-size: 16px;"> <p>Even when blocked, you will <i>usually</i> still be able to edit your <a href="/wiki/Special:MyTalk" title="Special:MyTalk">user talk page</a>, as well as <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Emailing_users" title="Wikipedia:Emailing users">email</a> administrators and other editors. </p> </div> <div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div><div style="font-size: 16px;"> <p>For information on how to proceed, please read the <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Appealing_a_block#Common_questions" title="Wikipedia:Appealing a block">FAQ for blocked users</a></b> and the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Appealing_a_block" title="Wikipedia:Appealing a block">guideline on block appeals</a>. The <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Guide_to_appealing_blocks" title="Wikipedia:Guide to appealing blocks">guide to appealing blocks</a> may also be helpful. </p> </div> <p>Other useful links: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Blocking_policy" title="Wikipedia:Blocking policy">Blocking policy</a> · <a href="/wiki/Help:I_have_been_blocked" title="Help:I have been blocked">Help:I have been blocked</a> </p> </div></li><li class="mw-permissionerror-globalblocking-blockedtext-range"> <div id="mw-blocked-text" style="border: 1px solid #AAA; background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, ivory); color: inherit; padding: 1.5em; width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box;"> <div style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: 26px;"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Stop_hand_nuvola.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f1/Stop_hand_nuvola.svg/50px-Stop_hand_nuvola.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f1/Stop_hand_nuvola.svg/75px-Stop_hand_nuvola.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f1/Stop_hand_nuvola.svg/100px-Stop_hand_nuvola.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="240" data-file-height="240" /></a></span><b> This IP address range has been <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global_blocks" class="extiw" title="m:Global blocks">globally blocked</a>.</b></span><br /><span style="font-size: 18px;">This does not affect your ability to <i>read</i> Wikipedia pages.</span></div><div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div><b>Most people who see this message have done nothing wrong.</b> Some kinds of blocks restrict editing from specific service providers or telecom companies in response to recent abuse or vandalism, and can sometimes affect other users who are unrelated to that abuse. Review the information below for assistance if you do not believe that you have done anything wrong.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div><div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> <p>This block affects editing on all Wikimedia wikis. </p><p>The IP address or range 8.222.128.0/17 has been globally <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Blocking_policy" title="Wikipedia:Blocking policy">blocked</a> by <a href="/wiki/User:Jon_Kolbert" title="User:Jon Kolbert">‪Jon Kolbert‬</a> for the following reason(s): </p> <div style="padding:10px; background:var(--background-color-base, white); color:inherit; border:1px #666 solid;"> <p><a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/NOP" class="extiw" title="m:Special:MyLanguage/NOP">Open proxy/Webhost</a>: See the <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WM:OP/H" class="extiw" title="m:WM:OP/H">help page</a> if you are affected </p> </div> <p>This block will expire on 15:12, 27 August 2028. Your current IP address is 8.222.208.146. </p> <div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div><div style="font-size: 16px;"> <p>Even while globally blocked, you will <i>usually</i> still be able to edit pages on <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/" class="extiw" title="m:">Meta-Wiki</a>. </p> </div> <div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div><div style="font-size: 16px;"> <p>If you believe you were blocked by mistake, you can find additional information and instructions in the <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/No_open_proxies" class="extiw" title="m:Special:MyLanguage/No open proxies">No open proxies</a> global policy. Otherwise, to discuss the block please <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Steward_requests/Global" class="extiw" title="m:Steward requests/Global">post a request for review on Meta-Wiki</a>. You could also send an email to the <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Stewards" class="extiw" title="m:Special:MyLanguage/Stewards">stewards</a> <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/VRT" class="extiw" title="m:Special:MyLanguage/VRT">VRT</a> queue at <kbd>stewards@wikimedia.org</kbd> including all above details. </p> </div> <p>Other useful links: <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global_blocks" class="extiw" title="m:Global blocks">Global blocks</a> · <a href="/wiki/Help:I_have_been_blocked" title="Help:I have been blocked">Help:I have been blocked</a> </p> </div></li></ul><hr /> <div id="viewsourcetext">You can view and copy the source of this page:</div><textarea readonly="" accesskey="," id="wpTextbox1" cols="80" rows="25" style="" class="mw-editfont-monospace" lang="en" dir="ltr" name="wpTextbox1">{{bots|deny=Citation bot,SporkBot,Cewbot}}{{skip to bottom}}{{talk header|display_title=Help:Citation Style 1 and the CS1 templates|WT:CS1}} {{central|text=the talk pages for all Citation Style 1 and Citation Style 2 templates and modules redirect here. A list of those talk pages and their historical archives can be found [[Help talk:Citation Style 1/Centralized discussions|here]].}} {{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|1= {{Wikipedia Help Project|importance=High}} {{WikiProject Academic Journals}} {{WikiProject Magazines}} }} {{User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis |archiveprefix=Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive |format= %%i |age=480 |header={{Automatic archive navigator}} |headerlevel=2 |maxarchsize=200000 |minkeepthreads=6 |numberstart=69 |minarchthreads=2 }} {{Banner holder|collapsed=yes| {{tmbox | type = notice | image = [[File:clipboard.svg|40px]] | imageright= [[File:Merge-split-transwiki default.svg|40px]] | text = Some of the templates discussed here were considered for [[Wikipedia:Deletion policy|merging or deletion]] at [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion]]. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination: *"'''Withdrawn'''" proposal to merge [[Template:Cite press release]] with [[Template:Cite news]] on March 2, 2018, see [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2018 March 2#Template:Cite press release|discussion]]. }} }} {{FAQ|page=Help talk:Citation Style 1/FAQ}} == Two dots at the end? == I noticed that this template appears to add two dots at the end of the citation for no obvious reason. See [[Basic access authentication#External links|External links on this page]] for an example (there is only one external link). Can somebody figure out why this happens and fix it? <span style="padding-left: 2em; white-space: nowrap">— [[User:SkyLined|<span style="font-family: 'Courier New', monospace; text-shadow:#80FF80 0.1em 0.1em 0.2em; color:#008000;">SkyLined</span>]] <small>([[User_talk:SkyLined|talk]])</small></span> 09:29, 4 November 2024 (UTC) :While I confirm that the citation appears in the link above with double dots, the exact same template, copied, doesn't produce double dots (for me, anyway!) here: *{{cite web|title=RFC 7617 - The 'Basic' HTTP Authentication Scheme|url=https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7617|publisher=Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF)|date=September 2015}} :(Also the link as generated by Citer doesn't produce double dots in the original context.) :[[User:Pol098|Pol098]] ([[User talk:Pol098|talk]]) 12:33, 4 November 2024 (UTC) ::The extra dot was placed after one of the categories for the article. Since categorisation doesn't render in place, but rather at the page foot, it made it appear as if the dot was produced by the citation template. [[Special:Diff/1255340753|I removed it]]. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 12:40, 4 November 2024 (UTC) :::Thanks for spotting and fixing that! :::It currently renders as <code>The 'Basic' HTTP Authentication Scheme. Internet Engineering Task Force. September 2015. doi:10.17487/RFC7617. RFC 7617.</code> which has more than a few dots and repeats the RFC number. That looks weird to me - is that how it is supposed to look? :::<span style="padding-left: 2em; white-space: nowrap">— [[User:SkyLined|<span style="font-family: 'Courier New', monospace; text-shadow:#80FF80 0.1em 0.1em 0.2em; color:#008000;">SkyLined</span>]] <small>([[User_talk:SkyLined|talk]])</small></span> 02:54, 5 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{tlx|cite IETF}} is not a cs1|2 template. It is a wrapper around {{tlx|citation}}. If you believe that that {{tld|cite IETF}} should render differently, you must discuss that at the template's talk page. ::::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 14:38, 5 November 2024 (UTC) == length or running time parameters == This page was given as Talk for Cite AV Media template. Nowhere do I find any parameter for the size of the media as in "pages=" for books; the "time=" parameter is described as a location in the work, like "page=" or "at=".[[Special:Contributions/71.230.16.111|71.230.16.111]] ([[User talk:71.230.16.111|talk]]) 05:26, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User talk:71.230.16.111|71.230.16.111]]: we typically don't list the size of a work in that way in a citation. {{para|pages}} is for a page range of a location within a book or other work, not the total size. That parameter is used to prefix the plural "pp." in front of a group of pages instead of the singular "p.", and it's not for the total pages in a book. This might be the source of confusion for you. <span style="background:#006B54; padding:2px;">'''[[User:Imzadi1979|<span style="color:white;">Imzadi&nbsp;1979</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Imzadi1979|<span style="color:white;"><big>→</big></span>]]'''</span> 05:54, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::I use {{para|type|Video (23'34")}}. Unlike, say, a book, AV media are sequential, not random, access, so the length is more relevant to the reader. If this suggestion is generally liked, it could be added to the documentation of {{tl|Cite AV media}}. Documentation for {{para|type}} at present includes "Alias: {{para|medium}}. Use one of the following as applicable: Motion picture, Television production, Videotape, DVD, Blu-ray, Trailer, CD, Radio broadcast, Podcast". Best wishes, [[User:Pol098|Pol098]] ([[User talk:Pol098|talk]]) 13:08, 9 November 2024 (UTC) == Documentation unnecessarily verbose (author1, author2, ... author9) == The documentation for the citation templates in unnecessarily verbose, with [[Template:Citation#TemplateDataentries|entries tabulated]] like author3, last3, author3-link, for numerical values up to 9, and similarly for other parameters. After the entries for the 2nd author (etc.), I suggest simply ''and similar values for further authors, e.g. author3, etc.'' , omitting entries 3-9. This also has the merit of being more general; the existing table goes up to 9, without mention of listing further authors, e.g., author15. I suppose there is a limit to the number of authors (etc.) supported; this could be mentioned (some physics papers have around 1,000 authors, though I don't suggest including them all). This is fairly obvious; maybe it has been suggested, and rejected? Best wishes, [[User:Pol098|Pol098]] ([[User talk:Pol098|talk]]) 14:44, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :There is no practical limit to <code>{{var|n}}</code> in {{para|author{{var|n}}}} (for the real limit see {{slink|mw:Extension:Scribunto/Lua_reference_manual|number}}). : :If you are talking about that abomination that is TemplateData, this is the wrong venue. There is no support in TemplateData to 'short-hand' enumerated parameter names. :—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 15:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thanks; indeed TemplateData. Best wishes, [[User:Pol098|Pol098]] ([[User talk:Pol098|talk]]) 15:48, 10 November 2024 (UTC) == URL for cite document == {{tl|cite document}} under its COinS says url is supported. But at [[Kaufman, Texas]] I'm getting ''<nowiki>"Unknown parameter |url= ignored"</nowiki>'' How do I specify a URL for {{tl|cite document}}? <span style="font-family:Segoe Script">[[User:Jay| Jay]]</span><span style="font-size:115%">[[User talk:Jay| 💬]]</span> 14:50, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :{{tq|Note: This table of metadata is displayed in the documentation of all Citation Style 1 templates. Not all of these parameters are supported by every CS1 template.}} {{t1|Cite document}} is specifically for offline documents; why not use {{t1|cite web}}? [[User:Mackensen|Mackensen]] [[User_talk:Mackensen|(talk)]] 15:23, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :{{ec}} :From the first line of text in the {{tlx|cite document}} template's documentation: ::This ... template is used to create citations for short, stand-alone, '''off-line''' documents. {{small|(emphasis added)}} :The COinS documentation at {{slink|Template:Cite_document|COinS}} has this: ::Note: This table of metadata is displayed in the documentation of all Citation Style 1 templates. Not all of these parameters are supported by every CS1 template. :Use an appropriate template. :—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 15:24, 10 November 2024 (UTC) ::[[Special:Diff/1256569520|Fixed]]. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 15:39, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::For some documents {{tl|Cite report}}, which takes a URL, is appropriate. [[User:Pol098|Pol098]] ([[User talk:Pol098|talk]]) 15:56, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::Thanks, but since it was a PDF, I wanted to use a citation that is closest to document. And that PDF is not a report. <span style="font-family:Segoe Script">[[User:Jay| Jay]]</span><span style="font-size:115%">[[User talk:Jay| 💬]]</span> 07:39, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I'm open to correction here by the people who actually did the work, but my understanding is that the theory behind the CS1{{!}}2 templates is not to taxonomise source types, but to present multiple consistent display formats while constraining parameter sets. Most written media can be construed as "documents". {{Tl|Cite web}} is perfectly adequate here: with complete bibliographic information a reader should be able to locate and consult a printed version of this source should the source's current server go dark. If in doubt of the appropriate template, {{tl|Citation}} can be used as an initial implementation, with {{para|mode|cs1}} to force stops instead of commas in between displayed parameter values. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 17:16, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Oh and to provide well-structured metadata for downstream reusers and to infill certain values in some cases and probably other goals. Forgetfully and in ignorance, [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 17:19, 17 November 2024 (UTC) == [[MOS:RANGE]] violation == [[MOS:RANGE]] states: "The en dash in a range is always unspaced, except when either or both elements of the range include at least one space, hyphen, or en dash; in such cases, {{tl|snd}} between them will provide the proper formatting" and it gives the example "pages 5-7 – 5-9". However, the citation templates do not obey this, instead stripping out the spaces from parameters like {{para|pages|12-1 – 12-24}} Example: *<nowiki>{{citation|title=Algorithms and Theory of Computation Handbook: General Concepts and Techniques|editor1-first=Mikhail J.|editor1-last=Atallah|editor2-first=Marina|editor2-last=Blanton|contribution=Chapter 12: Randomized Algorithms|first1=Rajeev|last1=Motwani|author1-link=Rajeev Motwani|first2=Prabhakar|last2=Raghavan|author2-link=Prabhakar Raghavan|edition=2nd|publisher=CRC Press|year=2010|pages=12-1 – 12-24}}</nowiki> *{{citation|title=Algorithms and Theory of Computation Handbook: General Concepts and Techniques|editor1-first=Mikhail J.|editor1-last=Atallah|editor2-first=Marina|editor2-last=Blanton|contribution=Chapter 12: Randomized Algorithms|first1=Rajeev|last1=Motwani|author1-link=Rajeev Motwani|first2=Prabhakar|last2=Raghavan|author2-link=Prabhakar Raghavan|edition=2nd|publisher=CRC Press|year=2010|pages=12-1 – 12-24}} *SANDBOX: {{citation/Sandbox|title=Algorithms and Theory of Computation Handbook: General Concepts and Techniques|editor1-first=Mikhail J.|editor1-last=Atallah|editor2-first=Marina|editor2-last=Blanton|contribution=Chapter 12: Randomized Algorithms|first1=Rajeev|last1=Motwani|author1-link=Rajeev Motwani|first2=Prabhakar|last2=Raghavan|author2-link=Prabhakar Raghavan|edition=2nd|publisher=CRC Press|year=2010|pages=12-1 – 12-24}} Using the MOS recommendation of {{tl|snd}} is worse, producing "12-1 –&#32, 12–24". Can this be fixed, please? —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 07:22, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :Use of <code>((…))</code> will fix that: {{citation|title=title|pages=((12-1 – 12-24))}}. -- [[User:Michael Bednarek|Michael Bednarek]] ([[User talk:Michael Bednarek|talk]]) 09:10, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::There is no need for hacks. If this should be fixed, the module can handle it without that. [[User:Gonnym|Gonnym]] ([[User talk:Gonnym|talk]]) 11:16, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :I agree this should be fixed but am not sure how to fix it. Maybe this is something {{u|Trappist the monk}} or {{u|Folly Mox}} can help with? [[User:Firefangledfeathers|Firefangledfeathers]] ([[User talk:Firefangledfeathers|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Firefangledfeathers|contribs]]) 13:53, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::Apologies for any confusion: I'm fairly well versed in the behaviour of [[Module:CS1]] and its dependent templates, but I'm almost entirely unfamiliar with the codebase. I've read through parts of it, but Trappist is by far the primary maintainer. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 18:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :In the sandbox. Spaced em/en/hyphen separators between hyphenated compound page numbers: :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=12-1 – 12-24}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=12-1 – 12-24}} :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=12-A – 12-X}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=12-A – 12-X}} :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=A-12 - A-24}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=A-12 - A-24}} :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=A-12 — A-24}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=A-12 — A-24}} :Unspaced em/en/hyphen separators between hyphenated compound page numbers: :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=12-1–12-24}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=12-1–12-24}} :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=12-A–12-X}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=12-A–12-X}} :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=A-12-A-24}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=A-12-A-24}} :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=A-12—A-24}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=A-12—A-24}} :Unspaced em/en/hyphen separators between dot-separated compound page numbers: :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=12.1–12.24}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=12.1–12.24}} :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=12.A–12.X}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=12.A–12.X}} :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=12.A-12.X}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=A.12–A.24}} :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=12.A—12.X}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=A.12—A.24}} :Spaced em/en/hyphen separators between simple numeric page numbers: :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=12 – 24}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=12 – 24}} :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=12 - 24}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=12 - 24}} :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=12 — 24}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=12 — 24}} :Unspaced em/en/hyphen separators between simple numeric page numbers: :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=12–24}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=12–24}} :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=12-24}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=12-24}} :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=12—24}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=12—24}} :Spaced em/en/hyphen separators between simple alpha page numbers: :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=xii – xiv}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=xii – xiv}} :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=xii - xiv}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=xii - xiv}} :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=xii — xiv}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=xii — xiv}} :Unpaced em/en/hyphen separators between simple alpha page numbers: :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=xii–xiv}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=xii–xiv}} :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=xii-xiv}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=xii-xiv}} :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=xii—xiv}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=xii—xiv}} :Spaced and unspaced em/en/hyphen separators between mixed alpha and numeric page numbers; returned unmodified: :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=xii – 5}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=xii – 5}} :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=xii - 5}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=xii - 5}} :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=xii — 5}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=xii — 5}} :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=xii–5}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=xii–5}} :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=xii-5}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=xii-5}} :*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation/new|title=Title |pages=xii—5}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{citation/new|title=Title |pages=xii—5}} :—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 14:51, 15 November 2024 (UTC) ::Impressively robust! Would be a cherry on top if the block of "xii–5" cases also worked, though I guess that's not going to come up terribly often. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 11:49, 21 November 2024 (UTC) == clean up usurped / unfit / deviated == For probably more than a decade, I've been fixing <code><nowiki>{{cite}}</nowiki></code> templates with {{para|url-status|usurped}} or {{para|url-status|unfit}}, changing those to {{para|url-status|dead}}. In one place, [[Template:Cite web/doc]] offers <code>usurped</code> and <code>unfit</code> as valid values for this parameter and in two other places it additionally offers <code>deviated</code>, which I didn't know about until now, and that value actually works. [[Template:Cite news/doc]] has those two other places, but doesn't have the place offering <code>usurped</code> and <code>unfit</code> without also offering <code>deviated</code>. Recommendations: First, all cite template documentation pages be updated to say that <code>usurped</code> and <code>unfit</code> are not supported and to use <code>deviated</code> instead. Second, cite template documentation pages should—for parameters that are identical in name, range of values, and display—explain the parameters using identical language. —[[User:Anomalocaris|Anomalocaris]] ([[User talk:Anomalocaris|talk]]) 22:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :What do you mean when you say: {{tq|<code>usurped</code> and <code>unfit</code> are not supported}}? Give us an example of that shows how those parameter values not supported. Every cs1|2 template that supports {{para|archive-url}} (all but the preprint templates – {{tlx|cite arxiv}}, {{tlx|cite biorxiv}}, {{tlx|cite citeseerx}}, {{tlx|cite medrxiv}}, and {{tlx|cite ssrn}} – and {{tlx|cite document}}) support <code>usurped</code> and <code>unfit</code> for {{para|url-status}}. : :Most of the cs1|2 documentation comes from [[Template:Citation Style documentation]] which is shared amongst the all of the cs1|2 templates. That is the {{em|real}} documentation. If you are talking about that abomination that is TemplateData, that {{em|is not}} the template documentation. Please specify where you think that the documentation is falling short. If you know how the documentation can be improved, please improve it. The documentation is not protected. :—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 23:08, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::A factual comment, with no opinion: use of {{tq|usurped}} and {{tq|unfit}} trigger a cs1 warning. As far as I remember without checking they are identical, and the reference renders without link to the original article, while {{tq|deviated}} is identical to {{tq|dead}}. Best wishes, [[User:Pol098|Pol098]] ([[User talk:Pol098|talk]]) 11:49, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :::It's a maintenance message, not a warning. I'm not super sure of the point, since no maintenance is required and the URL blacklist is a completely separate process. {{Para|url-status|bot: unknown}} is another maintenance message that needs no attention. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 21:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :I'm demoralized somebody is intentionally and systematically removing {{para|url-status|usurped}}. I have spent years adding usurp to hijacked domains (see [[WP:JUDI]]). We should remove that maintenance message, it [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Help_talk:Citation_Style_1&diff=1247745526 keeps coming up as a source of confusion], and now apparently a source of harm to the system. At the same time, what can be done to improve TemplateData? --[[User:GreenC|<span style="color: #006A4E;">'''Green'''</span>]][[User talk:GreenC|<span style="color: #093;">'''C'''</span>]] 03:03, 15 November 2024 (UTC) ::TemplateData should be collapsed, it's not part of the documentation and any editor who knows what it is and wants to edit it won't be harmed by it being collapsed. At the moment editors mistake it as part of the documentation causing confusion. -- <small>LCU</small> '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A<small>ctively</small>D<small>isinterested</small>]]''' <small>''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''</small> 10:34, 15 November 2024 (UTC) ::Yeah I got hung up on the subtopic and failed to engage with the real problem here: well-intentioned but misinformed and deliberate disimprovements that undo the work of others and may lead readers to malware, scams, online gambling spam, etc. <del>{{ping|Firefangledfeathers}} suggest [https://sigma.toolforge.org/summary.py?name=Anomalocaris&search=url-status&max=500&server=enwiki&ns=%2C%2C&enddate=&startdate= url-status.]</del> [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 17:16, 15 November 2024 (UTC) {{small|{{ins|Edited 15:16, 16 November 2024 (UTC) }}}} ::Comment: the suggested search also finds many pages where "url-status=live", unambiguously incorrect without archive-url, has been deleted by Anomalocaris. I also delete these. Best wishes, [[User:Pol098|Pol098]] ([[User talk:Pol098|talk]]) 12:02, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::They edited 760 pages, with an edit summary. The JUDI processes has edited about 42,000 pages. About 2%. -- [[User:GreenC|<span style="color: #006A4E;">'''Green'''</span>]][[User talk:GreenC|<span style="color: #093;">'''C'''</span>]] 00:29, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::That was a bad suggestion, posted in haste slightly after my break was already over. I clicked through to and reviewed about 40 diffs from the first page of 500 results (back to summer 2020) where the edit summary made it ambiguous what action was taken. Most were false positives, and of the five instances I found where {{para|url-status}} was changed away from {{code|unfit}} or {{code|usurped}}, today only one is actually a usurped domain, which I fixed at [[Special:Diff/1257764735]]. Anomalocaris does a high volume of good and accurate citation gnoming.{{pb}}{{ping|Anomalocaris}} could you speculate on the scope of your edits that have removed these statuses?{{pb}}I'll try looking for other edit summary keywords and reviewing the diffs instead of blindly posting poor suggestions here for others to work through. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 15:16, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::As a follow up here: I'm experiencing an issue with {{Noping|Σ}}'s edit summary search tool, where it claims there are 762 hits, but will only display 501. The 501th, from May 2020, is the earliest diff it will return irrespective of specified date range.{{pb}}I manually reviewed all the diffs in the displayed results yesterday where it was unclear from the summary whether a {{code|usurped}} or {{code|unfit}} status was being removed, and all the diffs that indicated that was being done (major overlaps with searches for "usurped" and "unfit", which each return four hits). If anyone is able to get the earlier diffs to display, please ping me with a working link to the summary.py results and I'll manually review them.{{pb}}The majority of the diffs I checked were false positives (usually clearing up {{para|url-status|bot: unknown}}), and of the true positives the switch of {{para|url-status}} was actually correct in most cases: a few US government websites some earlier editor had marked as unfit perhaps as a personal statement, a redirect to a different content page on a safe domain (Salon), and a domain with an expired registration that no one bothered to usurp.{{pb}}Had no positives with other edit summary searches; out of ideas. I am seeing a very kindred spirit in {{u|Anomalocaris}}. Unless they are able to estimate a broader scope for this particular change, or we're somehow able to find removals of membership in {{clc|CS1 maint: unfit URL}} with some database query, I'm hesitantly but optimistically suspecting that although the timeframe quoted in the first sentence of the OP is a long one, the volume of this specific change is not particularly high. May this suspicion mollify in particular {{u|GreenC}}. For the record, [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 17:05, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::: I am sorry for messing up other editors' work and I would like to make amends. Occasionally I mentioned url-status in edit summaries, but most of my edits involving changing url-status would be covered by "improve &lt;ref>s" rather than "url-status". About a third of my edit summaries include "improve &lt;ref>s", so it would take a long time to examine each of those edits for changing unfit or usurped to dead. Is there any tool that can perform, in effect: <code>For all Anomalocaris edits do if (Diff includes removing "usurped" or "unfit") then (report that edit)</code>? I'm putting a line below this edit to reflect that comments below are actually older and I encourage any replies to be above the line. —[[User:Anomalocaris|Anomalocaris]] ([[User talk:Anomalocaris|talk]]) 18:51, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I don't think that's possible: someone with more technical knowledge may correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that the database only stores the page revisions, and the [[:mw:Extension:Diff|diff extension]] calculates the differences on request.{{pb}}Fortunately your estimate seems a bit high: edit summary search for "[https://sigma.toolforge.org/summary.py?name=Anomalocaris&search=improve+%3Cref&server=enwiki&max=500&ns=%2C%2C&enddate=&startdate= {{code|improve <ref}}]" (27 seconds to execute) returns about 4800 hits, pretty close to {{frac|1|11}} of your mainspace contributions. Still rather a lot, but not entirely unmanageable given some time and effort. It's convenient that the change we'll be looking for is simple and requires not much work to address, unlike for example a CCI or ReferenceExpander cleanup. Also I'm sure this activity doesn't occur with ''that'' high of a frequency in the target space.{{pb}}A database query for edit summary matches {{strong|is}} something we can request, and might be a better option for generating a worksheet or ten than pounding poor sigma.toolforge over and over.{{pb}}Thanks for all your work over the years; it's a pity about this misunderstanding, but I'm willing to help wade through the diffs and help repair remaining problem domains. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 13:38, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Once we have the full diff list, it wouldn't be too difficult to code up a script that would iterate over the results, retrieve the html of the diff, and log the diff if the html matches {{code|1=/url\-status\s*\=\s*u/}} or equivalent syntactically correct regex (it's been decades). The resulting positive match subset log could be manually checked with much less labour.{{pb}}If no one else gets to it first, I'll see about requesting queries and an edit filter later today. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 14:09, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ---- :[[User:Anomalocaris|Anomalocaris]], it would help to be able to review your edits in which you removed "usurped". I see very few that use "usurped" in the edit summary. The most recent are appropriate, since the urls direct to 404 pages; "dead" is the right argument to use. What other edit summaries might lead us to more "usurped" changes? [[User:Firefangledfeathers|Firefangledfeathers]] ([[User talk:Firefangledfeathers|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Firefangledfeathers|contribs]]) 15:25, 15 November 2024 (UTC) ::*A new experiment shows {{tlx|cite web}} with {{para|url-status}} set to any of {usurped, unfit<s>, deviated</s>} generates the warning <span style="color:green">{{tlx|cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status ([[:Category:CS1 maint: url-status|link]])</span>. When I started this discussion I thought I saw that deviated did not generate the warning. I may have been mistaken. [Update: deviated doesn't seem to generate the warning. [[User:Anomalocaris|Anomalocaris]] ([[User talk:Anomalocaris|talk]]) 00:30, 16 November 2024 (UTC)] ::*I misunderstood the warning to mean, "Please change the URL status to <code>dead</code>. I now understand the warning to mean, "Please find a better reference." ::*Apologies to editors whose efforts to put in usurped status I undermined. ::*<s>But I don't understand why you made those efforts, because I don't see the practical difference between an external link that's invalid because the original domain owner didn't renew it, and an external link that's invalid because the webmaster discontinued the page. Either way, it's a dead link. Yes, sometimes it might be possible to find the page on the same website, now organized differently, but usually, when a page is gone it's gone.</s> (strike by [[User:Anomalocaris|Anomalocaris]] ([[User talk:Anomalocaris|talk]]) 00:30, 16 November 2024 (UTC)) ::*If someone can suggest a way of searching through my over 87,000 edits for changing <code>|url-status=usurped</code> or <code>|url-status=unfit</code> to <code>|url-status=dead</code>, I can review my work, but this would be a huge project; some of the formerly usurped URLs might be dead by now and some of the references may not be in the current version, so it would be a big process. ::*<s>If the meaning of the maintenance tag is "Please find a better reference", I believe the maintenance tag should go away if an archive-url is supplied.</s> (strike by [[User:Anomalocaris|Anomalocaris]] ([[User talk:Anomalocaris|talk]]) 00:30, 16 November 2024 (UTC)) ::*The documentation should be improved, as I said before, and another improvement is to clarify that the warning message means "Please find a better reference", not "please change the URL status to <code>dead</code>". ::—[[User:Anomalocaris|Anomalocaris]] ([[User talk:Anomalocaris|talk]]) 19:24, 15 November 2024 (UTC) :::Kindly, the important distinction is that {{code|usurped}} and {{code|unfit}} URLs do not generate a clickable link. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 21:39, 15 November 2024 (UTC) :::[[User:Anomalocaris]]: {{green|I don't understand why you made those efforts}}. Really? Since we don't want readers to unwittingly click through to gambling and porn, expecting they would arrive at a normal website, we hide those malicious links by setting them to usurped. You have not noticed this before? ::::{{cite web |title=Example with status=dead |url=https://example.com |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20241101010101/https://example.com |archive-date=2024-11-01 |url-status=dead}} ::::{{cite web |title=Example with status=usurped |url=https://example.com |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20241101010101/https://example.com |archive-date=2024-11-01 |url-status=usurped}} :::You see the difference? One displays a link to "the original" and the other does not. It is why {{para|url-status|usurped}} exists. It serves a function, usurped is not just another word for dead. -- [[User:GreenC|<span style="color: #006A4E;">'''Green'''</span>]][[User talk:GreenC|<span style="color: #093;">'''C'''</span>]] 23:49, 15 November 2024 (UTC) ::::[[User:GreenC|GreenC]] (also [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]]): Thank you for making the obvious even more obvious. I see it now. I struck two bullets above. I also confirm [[User:Pol098|Pol098]]'s observation that {{tq|deviated}} seems to be identical to {{tq|dead}} in this regard. —[[User:Anomalocaris|Anomalocaris]] ([[User talk:Anomalocaris|talk]]) 00:30, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::::It's been commented here that "Since we don't want readers to unwittingly click through to gambling and porn, expecting they would arrive at a normal website, we hide those malicious links by setting them to usurped." This makes perfect sense; I suggest that it should be mentioned in the documentation, not just "these parameters suppress the original URL". Maybe add "... because they link to inappropriate sites. A maintenance message is generated to suggest that a better link could be found". I don't actually think that a better link is likely to be available in perhaps most cases, sites are often gone with content only findable, sometimes, on the Wayback Machine; I'm not sure, without statistics, that the maintenance message is even useful. Best wishes, [[User:Pol098|Pol098]] ([[User talk:Pol098|talk]]) 12:23, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::The statuses live, dead, unfit, usurped, and deviated are all invisible to readers (for whom Wikipedia is intended), and confusing to editors, in particular with different parameters behaving exactly the same (dead, deviated; unfit, usurped). I would suggest deprecating them all (except live, for archived references), and for all future use suggest live, unavailable (but linked), and unsuitable (no link). It would be up to editors to choose; for example, is a link to, say acme.com/rodulator unavailable or unsuitable when the rodulator is discontinued and the link redirected to the acme.com home page? Best wishes, [[User:Pol098|Pol098]] ([[User talk:Pol098|talk]]) 13:33, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{od}} I think this is a wakeup call that the maintenance message for these {{para|url-status}} values should be suppressed. I'm not sure if there's a better tracking route than adding the article to {{clc|CS1 maint: unfit URL}}, but many editors see maintenance categories as problems to fix, rather than just tracking methods. Maybe it could be reparented to [[:Category:CS1 properties]]? [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 15:16, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::"many editors see maintenance categories as problems to fix" - most {{Em|are}} problems to fix - missing title, "Editor" as author name or "Archived" as title, and so on. Best wishes, [[User:Pol098|Pol098]] ([[User talk:Pol098|talk]]) 19:59, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I should have phrased my words more clearly. Yes, many / most maintenance categories (including subcats of [[:Category:CS1 maintenance]]) are full of errors that require repair (phone suggested: full of beans). Maybe I should have differentiated between "maintenance" and "tracking" categories? The software doesn't. My point was that, specifically for the "unfit URL" category, usually the case is that the archive snapshot supports the cited claim, but the URL that used to point to the original now points to garbage. There's usually not a repair to be made, and it certainly isn't just changing the {{para|url-status}} value to one that doesn't emit a message. The fact that an editor of nineteen years with a huge volume of citation gnoming had such a misunderstanding is a signal for more clarity around unfit / usurped URLs. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 21:00, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::[[User:Folly Mox]], {{green|maintenance message for these url-status values should be suppressed}}. Is this occurring at the MediaWiki level outside our (Enwiki) immediate control? -- [[User:GreenC|<span style="color: #006A4E;">'''Green'''</span>]][[User talk:GreenC|<span style="color: #093;">'''C'''</span>]] 00:58, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::::The message is emitted by [[Module:CS1]]. I think it's hidden for people who don't have the custom css set up to display CS1 maintenance messages. Subcats of [[:Category:CS1 properties]] each seem to require their own custom css, which makes surfacing them even more intentional for interested editors. Presumably such editors would understand that no action is required for this property. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 03:06, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::::If there are CS1 maintenance messages when an edit is previewed without CS1 messages set to display, there is a prominent notice like "<nowiki>Script warning: One or more {{cite book}} templates have maintenance messages; messages may be hidden (help).</nowiki>", with no indication of what cites are the cause. And, with CS1 messages displayed, a message like "missing publisher" looks a lot more like an error than just a comment. Best wishes, [[User:Pol098|Pol098]] ([[User talk:Pol098|talk]]) 20:26, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::::[[User:Folly Mox]], that's good. Do you think an RfC to disable it, for some or all, would be appropriate? Otherwise this thread will have no result. I can start it, unless there is strong objection to the idea of even having an RfC. -- [[User:GreenC|<span style="color: #006A4E;">'''Green'''</span>]][[User talk:GreenC|<span style="color: #093;">'''C'''</span>]] 00:49, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::For something like reparenting [[:Category:CS1 maint: unfit URL]] under [[:Category:CS1 properties]] to become [[:Category:CS1 properties: unfit URL]] (which should make the messages less visible, and I hope make these URLs feel like they're not required action items), we could probably just ask {{u|Trappist the monk}} nicely. They may also have counterarguments. [[WP:CFD|CFD]] is probably the follow up venue if a polite request fails here. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 02:57, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::A complementary measure might be to [[WP:EFR|request an edit filter]] that detects removal of {{code|usurped}} or {{code|unfit}} from {{para|url-status}} (I wasn't able to find any matching public edit filters, but I'm very inexperienced with them). This could be set to {{code|log}} at first, but potentially upgraded to {{code|warn}} if it works properly. If interested people check through the filter log every once in awhile, we should be able to catch this more quickly. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 13:44, 18 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I would echo the key point made by [[User:Folly Mox]], [[User:Pol098]], [[User:GreenC]], and [[Special:Diff/1247745526|previously]] by [[User:Manifestation]]. When a citation template with a valid <code>archive-url</code> correctly sets <code>url-status=usurped</code> etc, it should '''''not''''' be perpetually flagged with a top-of-the-screen {{green|"Script warning ... maintenance message"}} that prominently, confusingly, and unhelpfully encourages all future editors to waste time diagnosing a citation problem that doesn't exist. I'm sure the warning message was well-intended, but in this case it's doing more harm than good. —[[Special:Contributions/173.56.111.206|173.56.111.206]] ([[User talk:173.56.111.206|talk]]) 07:09, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::[[User:Trappist the monk]], would you be amiable to Folly Mox's suggestion to reparent the tracking category? There have been no objections, only support. It seems like a small enough issue we don't need to reargue it all over again at CFD, this is probably the better place for it anyway. -- [[User:GreenC|<span style="color: #006A4E;">'''Green'''</span>]][[User talk:GreenC|<span style="color: #093;">'''C'''</span>]] 17:14, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :In the sandbox: <div style="margin-left:3.2em">{{cite compare |template=book |title=Title |url=//example.com |archive-url=//archive.org |archive-date=2024-11-23 |url-status=usurped}}</div> :Articles with {{para|url-status|unfit}} and {{para|url-status|usurped}} are categorized in {{cl|CS1: unfit URL}}. :—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 20:47, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == "Ambiguous" numerical month dates leading to many errors == This topic has been brought up at least twice, [[Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 33#edtf date formats as cs1&#124;2 date parameter values]] and [[Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 44#Fix the date formatting]], but to no avail. Many scientific journals use YYYY-MM format dates and don't bother that they might be interpreted as a range of two years (it's almost impossible in this context). These dates are imported by a gadget which automatically converts URLs into cite templates, but this type of format is prohibited on Wikipedia, leading to CS1 errors. I don't know which gadget is that and where is its talk page so I decided to write here. Why wouldn't anyone fix the issue? There are so many possible solutions: automatically convert to the desired format (which is what currently done manually by {{U|Ira Leviton}}, {{U|Paul2520}} and perhaps some other users, I'm pretty sure they have never seen a single YYYY-YY date), show an error etc. [[Special:Contributions/5.178.188.143|5.178.188.143]] ([[User talk:5.178.188.143|talk]]) 21:06, 14 November 2024 (UTC) P. S. And by the way, {{u|Citation bot}} apparently makes such changes in an entirely automatic fashion, without ever verifying that the date was actually YYYY-MM not YYYY-YY. :It is always helpful to link to example diffs, or pages with a problem, when reporting an issue. Please do so. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 14:23, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steven_Kistler&diff=prev&oldid=1257506607 [[Special:Contributions/5.178.188.143|5.178.188.143]] ([[User talk:5.178.188.143|talk]]) 16:05, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::That diff shows Citation Bot <em>fixing</em> an unambiguous YYYY-MM problem. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 02:10, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :According to [[Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 33#ISBNs in mw:Citoid|a thread]] a few up from one of the ones mentioned in the OP, this "gadget" is [[:mw:Citoid|Citoid]], the Foundation's essentially unmaintained citation problem generator.{{dummy ref|uncharitable characterisation}} Tracked at [[:phab:T132308]] (2016, Open, High priority, no assignee). [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 15:32, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::What's wrong with Wikimedia Foundation that they can't fix a high-priority bugs in eight years, aren't they swimming in money and volunteers? [[Special:Contributions/5.178.188.143|5.178.188.143]] ([[User talk:5.178.188.143|talk]]) 16:01, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::To be fair, there was a lot of progress made in 2021, including global updates to the Citoid codebase and local updates to [[Module:CS1]]. The Foundation devs and contractors tend not to prioritise enwiki specific concerns, and focus on things they presume will benefit all / many projects in the Wikimedia ecosystem.{{pb}}I don't think it would be super unreasonable if the Module were updated to convert {{code|1=YYYY-NN}} to ''{{code|month year}}'' when {{code|NN}} is in the range (01,12). Citing a year range with an ambiguous abbreviated terminus is fair game for miscorrection.{{pb}}But, it's easy for me to say that, since I've never actually touched the code and have no responsibility to update it when features are requested. I might also be wrong about the surrounding issues, having not fully read through {{slink|Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 160|ISO 8601 YYYY-MM Calendar Date Format}} (June 2020). [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 17:42, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::::The issue is that formats like 2010-11 cannot be interpreted automatically by the module because they are ambiguous. Someone needs to figure out what the original intent of the date is, because that information is not present in the text. Is it supposed to be 2010–2011 or November 2010? Because the module does not have the information to disambiguate it, it should not try. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 20:04, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::::It's never, ever 2010-2011 [[Special:Contributions/5.178.188.143|5.178.188.143]] ([[User talk:5.178.188.143|talk]]) 10:14, 17 November 2024 (UTC) {{outdent}} It's not an error or bug. [[ISO 8601]] style dates (yyyy-mm and yyyy-mm-dd) are common in many parts of the world and progressively becoming more common in English speaking parts of the world - at least for official forms, engineering and multinational organisations. Among other reasons, I love it for putting dates in computer file names because it also sorts alphabetically. According to [[WP:DATERANGE]], year ranges should be written as 1881–1886, not 1881–86 - so you should never have a year range like 2010-11. If you do see 2010-11 then look around and see if there are other dates like 2010-05 (obviously not a valid year range). The cite templates know about ISO 8601 style dates, so if you have {{tlx|use dmy dates}} or {{tlx|use mdy dates}} at the top of the article then the cite templates will transform it into the appropriate style. <span style="border:1px solid blue;border-radius:4px;color:blue;box-shadow: 3px 3px 4px grey;">[[User:Stepho-wrs|'''&nbsp;Stepho&nbsp;''']]&nbsp;<span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:top">[[User Talk:Stepho-wrs|talk]]&nbsp;</span></span> 10:42, 17 November 2024 (UTC) == Cite dictionary issue with entry-url == <code lang="wikitext"><nowiki>{{cite dictionary |dictionary=[[Oxford English Dictionary]] |entry-url=http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/135679?rskey=7ZL0rI&result=3&isAdvanced=false |entry-url-access=subscription |title=oxymoron |url=https://www.oed.com/dictionary |access-date=26 February 2013}}</nowiki></code> renders as {{cite dictionary |dictionary=[[Oxford English Dictionary]] |entry-url=http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/135679?rskey=7ZL0rI&result=3&isAdvanced=false |entry-url-access=subscription |title=oxymoron |url=https://www.oed.com/dictionary |access-date=26 February 2013}} The rendered citation uses the value of {{para|url}}, not, as expected, {{para|entry-url}}. <span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(-3deg);bottom:-.1em;">[[user:Paradoctor|Paradoctor]]</span> ([[user talk:Paradoctor|talk]]) 19:37, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :Too many urls: ::<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{cite dictionary |dictionary=[[Oxford English Dictionary]] |entry-url=http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/135679?rskey=7ZL0rI&result=3&isAdvanced=false |entry-url-access=subscription |entry=oxymoron |access-date=26 February 2013}}</syntaxhighlight> :::{{cite dictionary |dictionary=[[Oxford English Dictionary]] |entry-url=http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/135679?rskey=7ZL0rI&result=3&isAdvanced=false |entry-url-access=subscription |entry=oxymoron |access-date=26 February 2013}} :—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 19:57, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thanks! <span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(-3deg);bottom:-.1em;">[[user:Paradoctor|Paradoctor]]</span> ([[user talk:Paradoctor|talk]]) 20:23, 16 November 2024 (UTC) {{Outdent|::}}:A comment about the documentation: while {{para|entry-url}} isn't included in the listed parameters, it is discussed, and the use of both {{para|url}} and {{para|entry-url}} in an example is given (dictionary is an alias of encyclopedia): {{markup2| |m=<nowiki>"{{cite encyclopedia |encyclopedia=Biographical Memoirs |volume=82 |date=2003 |given=Arnel R. |surname=Hallauer |entry=John David Axtell |publisher=[[National Academies Press]] |publication-place=Washington, D.C. |language=en |url=https://www.nap.edu/catalog/10683/biographical-memoirs-volume-82 |entry-url=https://www.nap.edu/read/10683/chapter/2}}</nowiki> |r={{cite encyclopedia |encyclopedia=Biographical Memoirs |volume=82 |date=2003 |given=Arnel R. |surname=Hallauer |entry=John David Axtell |publisher=[[National Academies Press]] |publication-place=Washington, D.C. |language=en |url=https://www.nap.edu/catalog/10683/biographical-memoirs-volume-82 |entry-url=https://www.nap.edu/read/10683/chapter/2}} }} <nowiki>Above is an example of using {{para|entry-url}} to link to the cited entry in the encyclopedia while also using {{para|url}} to link to the encyclopedia as a whole.</nowiki>" Best wishes, [[User:Pol098|Pol098]] ([[User talk:Pol098|talk]]) 20:37, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :In OP's example, it is not possible to use {{para|url}} to link {{tq|the [dictionary] as a whole}} because <syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">|dictionary=[[Oxford English Dictionary]]</syntaxhighlight>; you cannot link the <code>Oxford English Dictionary</code> text to two separate targets at the same time. :—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 20:58, 16 November 2024 (UTC) == Error related to Template:CS1 language sources == [[:Category:Articles with Moldovan-language sources (ro-md)]], which uses [[Template:CS1 language sources]] (which talk page redirects here) has an error. * The error does not explain how or what should be done. * The category isn't added to [[:Category:Language templates errors]]. [[User:Gonnym|Gonnym]] ([[User talk:Gonnym|talk]]) 13:52, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :That was Editor [[User:Error|Error]] living up to their username. {{tlx|CS1 language sources}} is for categories with the name structure: ::Category:CS1 &lt;{{var|language name}}>-language sources (&lt;{{var|tag}}>) :For categories with the name structure: ::Category:Articles with &lt;{{var|language name}}>-language sources (&lt;{{var|tag}}>) :use {{tlx|Non-English-language sources category}}. : :Preview is your friend; use it. :—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 15:12, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::Sorry. It seems I copied from the wrong page and I didn't understand the error message. --[[User:Error|Error]] ([[User talk:Error|talk]]) 00:32, 18 November 2024 (UTC) == Double-checking regarding year disambiguation == When a citation uses a letter e.g. {{para|year|1997a}}, the [[COinS]] metadata is unaltered, right? <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">[[User:Remsense|<span style="color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>[[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="color:#fff">'''论'''</span>]]</span> 18:17, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{cite book |title=Title |date=1997a}}</syntaxhighlight> ::{{code|lang=html|{{cite book |title=Title |date=1997a}}}} :::{{cite book |title=Title |date=1997a}} :—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 18:25, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thank you! I guess I meant to clarify that this format has the intended, recommended effect, but since it's plainly listed I'm not quite sure what I was worried about. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">[[User:Remsense|<span style="color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>[[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="color:#fff">'''论'''</span>]]</span> 18:28, 17 November 2024 (UTC) == URL for original edition of book == There is a book where only the original edition has an open access online copy, seen at {{tlx|Kelley 1975}} (created for use with {{tlx|sfn}}). The URL links to the 1955 edition, but the citation includes information about both the 1st (via <code>|orig-date</code>) and 2nd editions. Should there be an <code>|orig-url</code>, or is there a concise way to indicate that a link is to an older edition in {{tlx|cite book}}? [[User:Tule-hog|Tule-hog]] ([[User talk:Tule-hog|talk]]) 18:53, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :Don't confuse the reader by specifying the second edition and then linking to the 1955 (1st?) edition. Those are two different sources with different bibliographic details so cite the {{em|one}} you consulted, You can modify the template so that you can specify one or the other but don't mash two sources into one template. :—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 19:10, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::(Yes - 1st=1955, 2nd=1975.) Given the two editions are page-for-page almost identical, wouldn't it be to the benefit of readers and editors to include the link? The book is cited across many articles, and it seems unclean to include both editions separately on each just for the sake of supplying a link, and best practice to cite the most recent edition regardless of availability (with some exceptions). [[User:Tule-hog|Tule-hog]] ([[User talk:Tule-hog|talk]]) 19:35, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::(Apologies if I misinterpreted and you were referring to modifying {{tlx|cite book}}!) [[User:Tule-hog|Tule-hog]] ([[User talk:Tule-hog|talk]]) 19:36, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::: :::That is still two sources with two separate and different sets of bibliographic details: ::::{{cite book |last=Kelley |first=John L. |author-link=John L. Kelley |year=1955 |title=General Topology |location=New York |publisher=D. Van Nostrand}} ::::{{cite book |last=Kelley |first=John L. |author-link=John L. Kelley |year=1975 |title=General Topology |location=New York |publisher=[[Springer Science+Business Media |Springer-Verlag]] |isbn=978-0-387-90125-1 |edition=2nd}} :::Were the bibliographic details the same edition-to-edition, then {{para|orig-date|1955}} and {{para|url|<nowiki>https://archive.org/details/GeneralTopologyJohnL.Kelley</nowiki>}} might be acceptable. As those details are not the same edition-to-edition, I do not think that {{para|orig-date}} and {{para|url}} are appropriate. ::: :::You might change the template so that it renders something like this: ::::{{cite book |last=Kelley |first=John L. |author-link=John L. Kelley |year=1975 |title=General Topology |location=New York |publisher=[[Springer Science+Business Media |Springer-Verlag]] |isbn=978-0-387-90125-1 |edition=2nd}} ([https://archive.org/details/GeneralTopologyJohnL.Kelley 1955 edition]) :::This complies with the one-source-one-template rule and still gives you the link to the first edition. :::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 22:45, 17 November 2024 (UTC) == Title case == As of now, [[WP:CS1#Titles and chapters]] says, "Use title case unless the cited source covers a scientific, legal or other technical topic and sentence case is the predominant style in journals on that topic. Use either title case or sentence case consistently throughout the article." Is this the consensus of the community? Because it does not appear to be enforced consistently in Wikipedia among featured articles. Look at the current [[WP:TFA]], ''[[Donkey Kong Country]]'', for example. The articles' citations do not consistently use title case or sentence case in its titles, but instead, use the title case or sentence case depending on what the source cited uses. And prior to the peer review for [[Bejeweled (video game)|''Bejeweled'' (video game)]] just now, I've never been asked to follow this guideline. Honestly, in my opinion, regarding articles and chapters in particular, I think it's best to just use whichever case the source uses. If the source uses title case, use title case. If the source uses sentence case, use sentence case. After all, it's more accurate to the source and is just more convenient when citing sources, especially since most news sources use sentence case for their articles titles. [[User:Lazman321|Lazman321]] ([[User talk:Lazman321|talk]]) 18:20, 18 November 2024 (UTC) :It's the guidance at [[MOS:TITLECAPS]]. [[User:Rjjiii|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">Rjj<sup>iii</sup></span>]] ([[User talk:Rjjiii|talk]]) 03:41, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::That doesn't really answer my question. MOS:TITLECAPS says, "WP:Citing sources § Citation style permits the use of pre-defined, off-Wikipedia citation styles within Wikipedia, and some of these expect sentence case for certain titles (usually article and chapter titles). Title case should not be imposed on such titles under such a citation style consistently used in an article." Essentially, it defers to whatever the official guidelines of a particular citation style are, and the guidelines for CS1 are what I'm contesting right now. ::What I asked was whether there was a consensus on this matter. Right now, I'm looking through forum discussions, and the most extensive discussion I could find was from 2017 in [[Wikipedia talk:Citing sources/Archive 44#Title case%3F]] in which the general attitude appeared to be that sentence case was fine for titles of articles and chapters. A user from that discussion, SMcCandlish, essentially reinforced this at [[Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 92#Article titles]] this very year. Is that the consensus, and if so, would it be best for this page to be changed and accommodate it? [[User:Lazman321|Lazman321]] ([[User talk:Lazman321|talk]]) 04:29, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::I read the guidance at [[WP:CS1#Titles and chapters]], which you challenge, as mainly concerned with titles of larger works. Its sentences on short works is an aside explaining a different styling. My practice is to apply title case for longer works, and leave shorter works as I find them. In general, [[MOS:TITLECAPS]] wins. -- [[User:Michael Bednarek|Michael Bednarek]] ([[User talk:Michael Bednarek|talk]]) 09:41, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Personally, I apply title case to the titles of major works (e.g. journals, book titles, websites etc...) per [[MOS:TITLECAPS]], and sentence case to sub-sections of it (article title, chapter titles, etc...). "Article about interesting things" in ''Journal of Stuff'', "Chapter 2: The return of the mad Czar" in ''The History of Czars''. This is how I've seen in done in virtually all well-formatted articles, and most citation guides. If someone used title case across the board, I won't edit war over it, but I find it very strange. &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 12:20, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::That is my preference as well. But [[MathSciNet]] and [[zbMATH]], the two major bibliographic databases for mathematics, use sentence case for book titles (but not journal titles), so that at least is a well-established alternative convention in some fields. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 19:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::The idiosyncrasies of such databases should be ignored in favour of MOS:TITLECAPS. ''War and peace a historical novel'', as used at {{OCLC|656581151}}, is an abomination. -- [[User:Michael Bednarek|Michael Bednarek]] ([[User talk:Michael Bednarek|talk]]) 23:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC) == News aggregators parameter == For a source via a [[news aggregator]] (e.g. Yahoo News), in {{tl|Citation}} and variants, should we use the <code>|via=</code> or <code>|publisher=</code> parameter for the aggregator? E.g. should we do <code>|newspaper=The New York Times |via=Yahoo News</code>? [[User:seefooddiet|seefooddiet]] ([[User talk:seefooddiet|talk]]) 02:23, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :Yes, because Yahoo News is the content deliverer. :—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 03:52, 19 November 2024 (UTC) == 'Reformat dates' function == Hi! I'm trying to figure out the date reformatting function: [[Module:Citation/CS1/Date validation#L-841]]. I see that the module can convert dates to <syntaxhighlight inline lang="wikitext">{{#time:n F Y|2024-10-10}}</syntaxhighlight> -> {{#time:n F Y|2024-10-10}}, is it possible to convert in <syntaxhighlight inline lang="wikitext">{{#time:n xg Y|2024-10-10}} (month in genitive form)</syntaxhighlight> -> {{#time:n xg Y|2024-10-10}}? But I need to save <syntaxhighlight inline lang="wikitext">{{#time:F Y|2024-10-10}}</syntaxhighlight> -> {{#time:F Y|2024-10-10}} option. [[User:Iniquity|Iniquity]] ([[User talk:Iniquity|talk]]) 20:35, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :It is not really clear to me what it is that you are asking. cs1|2 doesn't use the [[mw:Help:Extension:ParserFunctions##time|#time parser function]] to do date conversions. : :The #time parser is not used because we can't write something like: ::<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{#time:Y-m-d|10 octobre 2024}}</syntaxhighlight> :on the French Wikipedia; doing so results in {{error|Erreur : durée invalide.}} This despite the #time parser's ability to render this at en.wiki: ::<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{#time:n F Y|2024-10-10|fr}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{#time:n F Y|2024-10-10|fr}} :You would think that, for an 'international' project, accepting dates with local-language month names as input would go hand-in-hand with rendering local-language month names. :—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 22:47, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thanks for the answer! I mean that now the 'long' array from 'date_names' in [[Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration]] is used to form the date. There the months are in the nominative case, but for the Russian language the genitive case is needed for 'dmy' form and nominative case for 'my' form. Is it possible to add an additional array with genitive case? [[User:Iniquity|Iniquity]] ([[User talk:Iniquity|talk]]) 05:09, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::Just for clarity, you want: ::::{{#time:n xg Y|2024-10-10|ru}} ← <syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{#time:n xg Y|2024-10-10|ru}}</syntaxhighlight> – genitive for all 'dmy' dates; including ranges? what about mdy? ::::{{#time:F Y|2024-10-10|ru}} ← <syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{#time:F Y|2024-10-10|ru}}</syntaxhighlight> – nominative for 'my' dates only; including ranges? :::[[mw:Help:Extension:ParserFunctions##time|#time parser function]] alludes to other languages that have nominative/genitive date forms. Do they follow the same rules as the Russian dates? ::: :::I have some ideas for resolution of this issue. I'll think more on it. My time is occupied elsewhere so I won't be able to get to this until later this week or next week. In the meantime, here is your assignment: :::#MediaWiki supports about [[List of Wikipedias|350 editions of Wikipedia]]. Assemble a list of those Wikipedia-edition languages that have nominative/genitive date forms. :::#determine which date formats from the above assembled list need nominative month names and which formats need genitive names. :::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 15:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{tq|1=10 октября 2024 ← <syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline>{{#time:n xg Y|2024-10-10|ru}}</syntaxhighlight>}}<br>My mistake, must be <code>j</code> not <code>n</code> - <syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline>{{#time:j xg Y|2024-10-10|ru}}</syntaxhighlight>{{pb}}{{tq|1=genitive for all 'dmy' dates; including ranges?}}<br>Yes.{{pb}}{{tq|1=what about mdy?}}<br>We dont use this format, we can leave the nominative case, but I found something, I'll write it below.{{pb}}{{tq|1=октябрь 2024 ← <syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline>{{#time:F Y|2024-10-10|ru}}</syntaxhighlight> – nominative for 'my' dates only; including ranges?}}<br>Yes, but the first letter of the first month must be capitalized.{{pb}}{{tq|1=[[mediawikiwiki:Help:Extension:ParserFunctions##time|#time parser function]] alludes to other languages that have nominative/genitive date forms. Do they follow the same rules as the Russian dates?}}<br>This is a relatively complex issue, I found such a list of formats for each language. And now it seems to me that the genitive case is not the only problem of internalization:<br>https://codesearch.wmcloud.org/core/?q=dmy+date&files=languages%2Fmessages&excludeFiles=&repos= [[User:Iniquity|Iniquity]] ([[User talk:Iniquity|talk]]) 18:42, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::That can't be the whole list can it? Why is ru.wiki not on that list? :::::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 22:41, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::This is a complete list, you just need to load the remaining lines, messageRU.php there. ::::::[[File:MediaWiki 2024-11-22 06-37-17.png|frameless|none]] [[User:Iniquity|Iniquity]] ([[User talk:Iniquity|talk]]) 06:38, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I think it is possible to use [[mw:Extension:Scribunto/Lua_reference_manual#mw.language:formatDate|lang:formatDate]] for catch necessary formats. [[User:Iniquity|Iniquity]] ([[User talk:Iniquity|talk]]) 18:55, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::[[mw:Extension:Scribunto/Lua_reference_manual#mw.language:formatDate|lang:formatDate()]] is the Scributo version of the [[mw:Help:Extension:ParserFunctions##time|#time parser function]]. Try this in a module debug console at ru.wiki: ::::::<syntaxhighlight lang="lua" inline="1">=mw.language.getContentLanguage():formatDate ('j F Y')</syntaxhighlight> → 21 ноябрь 2024 :::::I used that to get the month name. Then, I turned it round and attempted to get a YYYY-MM-DD date from the Russian DMY: ::::::<syntaxhighlight lang="lua" inline="1">=mw.language.getContentLanguage():formatDate ('Y-m-d', '21 ноябрь 2024')</syntaxhighlight> → Ошибка Lua: bad argument #2 to 'formatDate': invalid timestamp '21 ноябрь 2024' ... and some other error message stuff :::::To prove that the call was structured correctly, I changed 'ноябрь' to 'November': ::::::<syntaxhighlight lang="lua" inline="1">=mw.language.getContentLanguage():formatDate ('Y-m-d', '21 November 2024')</syntaxhighlight> → 2024-11-21 :::::mw.language:formatDate() will not work for date format conversion in [[Module:Citation/CS1/Date validation]]. :::::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 22:41, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Yes, I know :( It doesn't work well with anything that isn't ISO. But it converts ISO to the required format well. [[User:Iniquity|Iniquity]] ([[User talk:Iniquity|talk]]) 06:39, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I would like to separately tell you that we have adopted a [[:ru:ВП:ТД|local rule]] that all service dates must be machine-readable (to simplify the transfer of information from wiki to wiki) and we convert them into ISO using a bot.{{pb}}I tried to globalize it ([[meta:Requests for comment/Technical agreement on dates and times]]) somehow, but I didn't succeed very well. [[User:Iniquity|Iniquity]] ([[User talk:Iniquity|talk]]) 10:39, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Original title == I was editing [[Dobermann]] and I found a book edited with two different titles in two different editions; in {{tl|cite book}} there's no parameter <code>|orig-title=</code> (unlike <code>|orig-year=</code>}}; my workaround was that: <code><nowiki>{{cite book |last1=Scott |first1=John Paul |last2=Fuller |first2=John L. |orig-year=1965 |year=1975 |title=Dog Behavior: the Genetic Basis |edition=''Genetics and the Social Behavior of the Dog'' new |location=Chicago and London |publisher=University of Chicago Press |isbn=0-226-74335-7 |url=https://archive.org/details/dogbehaviorgenet00scot |via=Internet Archive}}</nowiki></code>, yielding (''Genetics and the Social Behavior of the Dog'' new ed.). The first edition was published in 1965 as ''Genetics and the Social Behavior of the Dog'' and the book itself is is better known with that title. Is it acceptable?-- [[User:Carnby|Carnby]] ([[User talk:Carnby|talk]]) 20:44, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :Do not abuse cs1|2 parameters. Cite the source that you consulted. If you consulted both, cite both in separate templates. Do not mash both sources into a single template. :—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 21:06, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thank you. Fixed.-- [[User:Carnby|Carnby]] ([[User talk:Carnby|talk]]) 22:07, 20 November 2024 (UTC) == Cite book editor names == In the [[Template:Cite book]] template data, the author first name parameters are named "First name", "First name 2", "First name 3" etc. The last names, masks and links follow this convention, as do the translator first names and last names. But, when it comes to the editors, it follows the separate convention "Last name of second editor", "Last name of third editor" etc. for the editor first names, last names, masks and links. Why is this, and can the editor parameter named be changed to conform? [[User:It is a wonderful world|It is a wonderful world]] ([[User talk:It is a wonderful world|talk]]) 17:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :Do you have an example in mind? Because I really don't know see what problem you're having with parameter names. For authors, {{para|last''n''}}/{{para|first''n''}}, for editors, {{para|editor-last''n''}}/{{para|editor-first''n''}}. If you want to be ultrapedantic, you can even use {{para|author-last''n''}}/{{para|author-first''n''}} instead of {{para|last''n''}}/{{para|first''n''}}. &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 18:14, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::@[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] Thank you for asking for clarification, I forgot to say that I saw this when using the add template function in the visual editor (the puzzle piece icon in the toolbar). It made it more confusing when scrolling through the parameters. [[User:It is a wonderful world|It is a wonderful world]] ([[User talk:It is a wonderful world|talk]]) 18:19, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::TemplateData, inexplicably, is structured programming code that is part of the unprotected documentation. In this case, {{U|It is a wonderful world}}, that means that you can edit the TemplateData section yourself. Happy editing, and be careful! – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 21:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::@[[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] Thanks for clarifying! I thought I better exercise caution thanks to how much this template is used. [[User:It is a wonderful world|It is a wonderful world]] ([[User talk:It is a wonderful world|talk]]) 21:09, 21 November 2024 (UTC) == Query regarding geo-fenced reference urls == Bringing here from [[Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates#Query regarding geo-fenced reference urls]]: [[User:MPGuy2824]] has a citation to a site that geofences the website to be only be accessible within India ([https://old.eci.gov.in/files/file/3614-punjab-general-legislative-election-2017/ example url]). How should this be delimited? "|url-access=limited" seems likely, but the doc wording for that is "free access is subject to limited trial and a subscription is normally required", which isn't the same thing. Another editor has suggested just calling it "|url-status=dead" to force the archive link to be the main, but that's also not true. Is there an existing standard for this situation? --'''[[User:PresN|<span style="color:green">Pres</span>]][[User talk:PresN|<span style="color:blue">N</span>]]''' 16:41, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :Are you sure that you have supplied the correct information here? So far as I can tell, https://old.eci.gov.in/files/file/3614-punjab-general-legislative-election-2017/ has never been in [[Election Commission of India]], the article mentioned at [[WT:FLC]]. : :For me, somewhere in the wastelands of North America, that url is dead. Were I to encounter it in the wild, I would mark it with {{tlx|dead link}}. Archive.org does not have a snapshot of that url; I didn't bother looking in other archives. If there is no archived snapshot, {{para|url-status|dead}} is not an appropriate 'solution'. :—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 17:13, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::The list in question is [[List of constituencies of the Punjab Legislative Assembly]]; it has, for example, in ref 7 a link to [https://old.eci.gov.in/files/file/3968-dpaco-1951/], which never resolves for me in America, with an archive at [https://web.archive.org/web/20210923105107/https://eci.gov.in/files/file/3968-dpaco-1951/], which does. --'''[[User:PresN|<span style="color:green">Pres</span>]][[User talk:PresN|<span style="color:blue">N</span>]]''' 22:44, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::I looked at the [https://web.archive.org/web/20210923105107/https://eci.gov.in/files/file/3968-dpaco-1951/ archived snapshot]. It looks more-or-less like a link farm with apparently related links (Archive Delimitation Orders) linking back to itself (or another archive snapshot of the same page). Not at all clear what that source is supposed to be supporting. ::: :::Since the article has been promoted to FA (not something that I would have done given the piss-poor quality of this one link and assuming that the other links to the same domain would be similar), does this topic still require some sort of answer? :::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 00:39, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::No, sounds like the answer to "how should we handle geo-fenced urls" is "the Election Commission of India, when viewed through the Internet Archive, has an ugly website", so I guess we're good here. --'''[[User:PresN|<span style="color:green">Pres</span>]][[User talk:PresN|<span style="color:blue">N</span>]]''' 21:25, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == HugeDomains == [[Special:Diff/1254741850/1256841759]] recently [[Wikipedia:Link_rot/URL_change_requests#HugeDomains|brought to attention]]. Do we have title traps for tracking cats? -- [[User:GreenC|<span style="color: #006A4E;">'''Green'''</span>]][[User talk:GreenC|<span style="color: #093;">'''C'''</span>]] 17:07, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :We do, but in a different form: <code>hugedomains.com</code> which seems to have been the form used when we first created the generic title list; see {{slink|Help_talk:Citation_Style_1/Archive_70|Wayback_Machine}}. Sandbox tweaked: <div style="margin-left:3.2em">{{cite compare |template=book |title=Some.domain.name for sale - HugeDomains}}</div> :And still finds the original: <div style="margin-left:3.2em">{{cite compare |template=book |title=Some.domain.name for sale - HugeDomains.com}}</div> :—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 22:53, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Usage of the quote parameter == I'm adding/updating {{tl|cite web}} entries on articles of towns and cities in Poland. The citation is to an official Polish website. Unfortunately, but not surprisingly, the website is almost entirely in Polish. I wish to add instructions to the citation that show how to perform the relevant search. At the moment, it seems as if the only way I can do this is to use the "quote" parameter. See, for example, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bachury&diff=prev&oldid=1259238705 this edit]. I realise that this is not the intended use of this parameter, but it seems the best fit for what I'm trying to achieve. Is there another more appropriate way of doing what I'm trying here? Does there need to be a new parameter, for example? Regards, [[User:Kiwipete|Kiwipete]] ([[User talk:Kiwipete|talk]]) 03:36, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Don't abuse cs1|2 template parameters. Put that extra stuff inside the {{tag|ref}} tags after the template's closing <code><nowiki>}}</nowiki></code>. :—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 03:49, 24 November 2024 (UTC) </textarea><div class="templatesUsed"><div class="mw-templatesUsedExplanation"><p><span id="templatesused">Pages transcluded onto the current version of this page<span class="posteditwindowhelplinks"> (<a href="/wiki/Help:Transclusion" title="Help:Transclusion">help</a>)</span>:</span> </p></div><ul> <li><a href="/wiki/User:ClueBot_III/ArchiveThis" title="User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis">User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:ClueBot_III/ArchiveThis&action=edit" title="User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:-" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:-">Template:-</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:-&action=edit" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:-">view source</a>) 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