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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">  <html lang="en"> <head id="stdcontainer"> <title> Ideas for "fixing" PerlMonks 1.0 </title> <link rel="canonical" href="https://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=11163197" />  <script language="javascript" type="text/javascript" src="?node=list%20replies%20toggle%20javascript" integrity="sha384-6jdBZxT7udN82vOTryPaLwqMohSfDF3HXv3M32KAZ7dOREMdAkYh9ZhoaKCgCXcr" crossorigin="anonymous"></script> <link rel="stylesheet" href="/css/common.css" type="text/css" /> <link rel="stylesheet" href="?node_id=204962" type="text/css" />   <link rel="icon" href="/favicon.ico" /> </head> <body id="id-11163197">   <table id="monkbar" width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr class="bannerrow"> <td align="left" width="100%"> <a href="http://pair.com"> <img src="//promote.pair.com/i/pair-banner-current.gif" height = "60" width = "468" alt = "Beefy Boxes and Bandwidth Generously Provided by pair Networks" /> </a> </td> <td rowspan="2" align="right" valign="bottom">  </td> </tr> <tr class="monkquip"> <td class="monkquip" valign="bottom" width="100%" > Welcome to the Monastery </td> </tr> <tr class="titlebar"> <td class="titlebar"> <form method="get" action="?" enctype="application/x-www-form-urlencoded" >   <input type="text" name="node" id="search_text" size="20" maxlength="300" /> <input class="titlebar" type="submit" value="Search" /> </form> </td> <td class="titlebar" id="mb2001titlebar" align="right" > <a class="titlebar" href="?">PerlMonks</a>   </td> </tr> </table>   <table width="98%" align="center" id="titlebar-top"> <tbody> <tr> <td valign="middle" class="titlechooser">  <h3 class="other">Ideas for "fixing" PerlMonks 1.0</h3> <span class="attribution">by <a href="?node_id=1068773">etj</a> <span class="attribution-title">(Priest)</span> </span>  </td> <td valign="top" align="right" class="monktitlebar">  <ul class="topnavmenu inline-list"> <li><a href="?node_id=109">Log in</a></li><li><a href="?node_id=101">Create a new user</a></li> <li><a href="?">The Monastery Gates</a></li> <li><a href="?node=Seekers%20of%20Perl%20Wisdom">Seekers of Perl Wisdom</a></li> <li><a href="?node=Meditations">Meditations</a></li> <li><a href="?node=Cool%20Uses%20for%20Perl">Cool Uses For Perl</a></li> <li><a href="?node=Obfuscated%20Code">Obfuscation</a></li> <li><a href="?node=Tutorials">Tutorials</a></li> <li><a href="?node=Perl%20Poetry">Poetry</a></li> <li><a href="?node=Illuminations">Illuminations</a></li> <li><a href="?node=Reviews">Reviews</a></li> <li><a href="?node=Perl%20News">Perl News</a></li> <li><a href="?node=Recently%20Active%20Threads">Recent Threads</a></li> <li><a href="?node=Newest%20Nodes">Newest Nodes</a></li> <li><a href="?node=Super%20Search">Super Search</a></li> <li><a href="?node=Perl%20Monks%20Discussion">PerlMonks Discussion</a></li> <li><a href="?node=Tidings">What's New</a></li> </ul>   </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> <table width="98%" align="center" id="titlebar-bottom"> <tbody> <tr> <td valign="middle" class="titlechooser">  <span class="attribution">on Dec 16, 2024 at 17:42 UTC</span> <span class="addlinks">( <a href="?node_id=11163197">[id://11163197]</a>=<a href="?node_id=1036">monkdiscuss</a>: <a rel="nofollow" href="?node_id=11163197;displaytype=print">print</a> <a rel="nofollow" href="?displaytype=print;node_id=11163197;replies=1">w/replies</a>, <a href="?node_id=11163197;displaytype=xml">xml</a> )</span>  </td> <td valign="middle" align="right" class="monktitlebar"> <a href="?node=PerlMonks%20FAQ">Need Help??</a> </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>   <center> <table width="98%"> <tr> <td width="80%" valign="top" class="main_content">   <p><div class="doctext" id="writeup">  <p><small><i>Originally posted as a reply to <a href="?node_id=11163187">Re^4: Ideas for PerlMonks 2.0</a></i></small></p> You mention security. Are passwords still stored as plaintext? Is security by obscurity really considered a valuable defence against ze baddies here? <p>As a generality, I think that separating code and data is a good thing, and makes for better design. If the system for this site requires changing to achieve that, then it should be done. I am willing to put effort into that myself. I never got going with the "add markdown as an option", and that is largely due to there not being a dev environment possible.<div class="comment-on notes" style="text-align:center"><table width="100%" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="1" border="0" ><tr><th colspan="2" class="comment-on"><ul class="inline-list"><li><a rel="nofollow" href="?parent=11163197;node_id=3333"><u>Comment on</u></a> Ideas for "fixing" PerlMonks 1.0</li></ul></th></tr> </table> </div></div></p><div class="notes" style="text-align:center"><table width="100%" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="1" border="0" id="replies_table"><tr><th colspan="2" class="comment-on"><span class="note-ordering">Replies are listed 'Best First'.</span></th></tr> <tr class="reply" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td colspan=2> <a name="11163204"></a> <a href="?node_id=11163204">Re: Ideas for "fixing" PerlMonks 1.0</a> <br /> <span class="attribution">by <a href="?node_id=170442">jdporter</a> <span class="attribution-title">(Paladin)</span> on Dec 16, 2024 at 19:34 UTC</span> </td></tr> <tr class='reply-body pmnote-170442' bgcolor='ffffff'><td class='reply-body'><ul class='indent'><blockquote><i> Are passwords still stored as plaintext? </i></blockquote> <p> It is — unfortunately — no secret that pm stores its passwords in plaintext. There has been plenty of <a href="?node=PMD">discussion</a> about this. We won't rehash it here. </p> <blockquote><i> Is security by obscurity really considered a valuable defence against ze baddies </i></blockquote> <p> I'm not talking about security — as in, preventing accounts or the site as a whole from being hacked, or personal data getting exfiltrated — so much as not revealing how the sausage gets made. The <a href="?node=gods">admins</a> do quite a bit to detect scammers and stymie trolls. We don't, for example, want you to know whom we have blocked, or how. </p> <blockquote><i> If the system for this site requires changing to achieve that, then it should be done. </i></blockquote> <p> I don't disagree. But, as has been mentioned many times, this system is very hard to change. It would be not only easier, but more advantageous in the long run, to build a new system from scratch, where everything is done The Right Way. </p> <blockquote><i> I am willing to put effort into that myself. </i></blockquote> <p> I appreciate that, and am grateful indeed. </p> <div class="pmsig"><div class="pmsig-170442"> Today's latest and greatest software contains tomorrow's zero day exploits<a href="?node_id=11150083">.</a> </div></div></ul></td><td class='reply-body adjunct-links' align='left' valign='bottom'><a rel="nofollow" href="?parent=11163204;node_id=3333">[reply]</a></td></tr> <tr class="reply" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td colspan=2> <a name="11163223"></a> <ul class="indent"> <a href="?node_id=11163223">Re^2: Ideas for "fixing" PerlMonks 1.0</a> <br /> <span class="attribution">by <a href="?node_id=1068773">etj</a> <span class="attribution-title">(Priest)</span> on Dec 17, 2024 at 10:14 UTC</span> </ul> </td></tr> <tr class='reply-body pmnote-1068773' bgcolor='ffffff'><td class='reply-body'><ul class='indent'><ul class='indent'>Less, let's say, humorously: I note the recent attempt by <a href="?node=Bod">Bod</a> to discuss the elephant in the room (the password problem), at <a href="?node_id=11157458">Priorities perhaps?</a>. <p>Having just re-read it, I see what I believe is a way to cut the Gordian knot. It could feel like a large, atomic change is <i>needed</i> to both encrypt the passwords, and put in place the workflow needed to do password resets that would be needed because the plaintext isn't available anymore. <p>But what about making a workflow for password resets <i>now</i>, even though the passwords are still plaintext in the database? It would both set the conditions for then encrypting the passwords as a second, independent step, <i>and</i> already increase security a bit by not having plaintext passwords be emailed around, and sit in people's mailboxes for ze baddies to snarf up.</ul></ul></td><td class='reply-body adjunct-links' align='left' valign='bottom'><a href="?node_id=3333;parent=11163223" rel="nofollow">[reply]</a></td></tr> <tr class="reply" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td colspan=2> <a name="11163224"></a> <ul class="indent"><ul class="indent"> <a href="?node_id=11163224">Re^3: Ideas for "fixing" PerlMonks 1.0</a> <br /> <span class="attribution">by <a href="?node_id=298378">Arunbear</a> <span class="attribution-title">(Prior)</span> on Dec 17, 2024 at 11:32 UTC</span> </ul></ul> </td></tr> <tr class='reply-body pmnote-298378' bgcolor='ffffff'><td class='reply-body'><ul class='indent'><ul class='indent'><ul class='indent'>There was some discussion of this idea two months ago: <a href="?node_id=11162208">Re^5: login with google account</a> </ul></ul></ul></td><td class='reply-body adjunct-links' align='left' valign='bottom'><a href="?parent=11163224;node_id=3333" rel="nofollow">[reply]</a></td></tr> <tr class="reply" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td colspan=2> <a name="11163232"></a> <ul class="indent"><ul class="indent"><ul class="indent"> <a href="?node_id=11163232">Re^4: Ideas for "fixing" PerlMonks 1.0</a> <br /> <span class="attribution">by <a href="?node_id=1068773">etj</a> <span class="attribution-title">(Priest)</span> on Dec 18, 2024 at 08:59 UTC</span> </ul></ul></ul> </td></tr> <tr class="reply" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td colspan=2> <a name="11163242"></a> <ul class="indent"><ul class="indent"><ul class="indent"><ul class="indent"> <a href="?node_id=11163242">Re^5: Ideas for "fixing" PerlMonks 1.0</a> <br /> <span class="attribution">by <a href="?node_id=170442">jdporter</a> <span class="attribution-title">(Paladin)</span> on Dec 18, 2024 at 14:21 UTC</span> </ul></ul></ul></ul> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor='cccccc'><td colspan='2'><ul class='indent'><ul class='indent'><ul class='indent'><ul class='indent'><ul class='indent'><i>Some notes below your <a href='?node_id=1072'>chosen depth</a> have not been shown here</i></ul></ul></ul></ul></ul></td></tr><tr class="reply" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td colspan=2> <a name="11163237"></a> <ul class="indent"><ul class="indent"><ul class="indent"><ul class="indent"> <a href="?node_id=11163237">Re^5: Ideas for "fixing" PerlMonks 1.0</a> <br /> <span class="attribution">by <a href="?node_id=708738">LanX</a> <span class="attribution-title">(Saint)</span> on Dec 18, 2024 at 09:52 UTC</span> </ul></ul></ul></ul> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor='cccccc'><td colspan='2'><ul class='indent'><ul class='indent'><ul class='indent'><ul class='indent'><ul class='indent'><i>Some notes below your <a href='?node_id=1072'>chosen depth</a> have not been shown here</i></ul></ul></ul></ul></ul></td></tr><tr class="reply" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td colspan=2> <a name="11163222"></a> <ul class="indent"> <a href="?node_id=11163222">Re^2: Ideas for "fixing" PerlMonks 1.0</a> <br /> <span class="attribution">by <a href="?node_id=1068773">etj</a> <span class="attribution-title">(Priest)</span> on Dec 17, 2024 at 10:01 UTC</span> </ul> </td></tr> <tr class='reply-body pmnote-1068773' bgcolor='ffffff'><td class='reply-body'><ul class='indent'><ul class='indent'><blockquote> pm stores its passwords in plaintext. There has been plenty of discussion about this. We won't rehash it here. </blockquote> I see what you did there.</ul></ul></td><td class='reply-body adjunct-links' align='left' valign='bottom'><a rel="nofollow" href="?parent=11163222;node_id=3333">[reply]</a></td></tr> <tr class="reply" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td colspan=2> <a name="11163256"></a> <ul class="indent"> <a href="?node_id=11163256">Re^2: Ideas for "fixing" PerlMonks 1.0</a> <br /> <span class="attribution">by <a href="?node_id=1218269">NERDVANA</a> <span class="attribution-title">(Priest)</span> on Dec 19, 2024 at 02:52 UTC</span> </ul> </td></tr> <tr class='reply-body pmnote-1218269' bgcolor='ffffff'><td class='reply-body'><ul class='indent'><ul class='indent'><blockquote>pm stores its passwords in plaintext. We won't rehash it here.</blockquote> <p>Pun intended? <p>(and now I see etj made the same comment, and I would delete this post if PM had that capability...)</ul></ul></td><td class='reply-body adjunct-links' align='left' valign='bottom'><a href="?parent=11163256;node_id=3333" rel="nofollow">[reply]</a></td></tr> <tr class="reply" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td colspan=2> <a name="11163218"></a> <a href="?node_id=11163218">Re: Ideas for "fixing" PerlMonks 1.0</a> <br /> <span class="attribution">by <a href="?node_id=747201">afoken</a> <span class="attribution-title">(Chancellor)</span> on Dec 17, 2024 at 09:24 UTC</span> </td></tr> <tr class='reply-body pmnote-747201' bgcolor='ffffff'><td class='reply-body'><ul class='indent'><blockquote>Are passwords still stored as plaintext?</blockquote> <p>That can be easily tested, using the <a href="?node_id=2513">What's my password?</a> page. As long as you get a mail with your password in plain text, the password <b>must</b> be stored in plain text, or with equivalent security. (It could be encrypted, but with both the decryption code and the decryption key available on the server.) As soon as you get some kind of one-time key instead of your password, your password <i>may</i> be stored hashed or hashed and salted. But unfortunately, it could also still be stored in plain text. But at least, it would not be exposed by mail any longer.</p> <p>Alexander</p> <div class="pmsig"><div class="pmsig-747201"> --<br /> Today I will gladly share my knowledge and experience, for there are no sweeter words than "I told you so". ;-) </div></div></ul></td><td class='reply-body adjunct-links' align='left' valign='bottom'><a href="?parent=11163218;node_id=3333" rel="nofollow">[reply]</a></td></tr> <tr class="reply" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td colspan=2> <a name="11163200"></a> <a href="?node_id=11163200">Re: Ideas for "fixing" PerlMonks 1.0</a> <br /> <span class="attribution">by <a href="?node_id=708738">LanX</a> <span class="attribution-title">(Saint)</span> on Dec 16, 2024 at 18:46 UTC</span> </td></tr> <tr class='reply-body pmnote-708738' bgcolor='ffffff'><td class='reply-body'><ul class='indent'><i>> I never got going with the "add markdown as an option", and that is largely due to there not being a dev environment possible.</i><p> Downloading Everything 1 (or 2) should be good enough to implement a proof of concept<p> <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080101113504/http://everydevel.com/index.pl?node=Everything%20Core">https://web.archive.org/web/20080101113504/http://everydevel.com/index.pl?node=Everything%20Core</a><p> <tt class='inlinecode'></tt><p> <blockquote><i> <tt class='inlinecode'></tt> </i></blockquote><p> <div class="pmsig"><div class="pmsig-708738"> <p>Cheers Rolf<br /> <sub>(addicted to the Perl Programming Language :) <br /> see <i> <a href="?node_id=1153804">Wikisyntax for the Monastery</a></i><p> </sub>  </div></div></ul></td><td class='reply-body adjunct-links' align='left' valign='bottom'><a href="?parent=11163200;node_id=3333" rel="nofollow">[reply]</a><br /><a href="?node_id=11163200;displaytype=displaycode">[d/l]</a><br /><a href="?displaytype=selectcode;node_id=11163200">[select]</a></td></tr> <tr class="reply" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td colspan=2> <a name="11163201"></a> <ul class="indent"> <a href="?node_id=11163201">Re^2: Ideas for "fixing" PerlMonks 1.0</a> <br /> <span class="attribution">by <a href="?node_id=170442">jdporter</a> <span class="attribution-title">(Paladin)</span> on Dec 16, 2024 at 19:25 UTC</span> </ul> </td></tr> <tr class='reply-body pmnote-170442' bgcolor='ffffff'><td class='reply-body'><ul class='indent'><ul class='indent'><p> Sure, one could do that. But is it really worth the effort? I think not. I maintain that all effort would be better expended on trying to create a replacement system entirely from scratch. (well, not entirely. it should be built with modern, open-source software.) </p> </ul></ul></td><td class='reply-body adjunct-links' align='left' valign='bottom'><a rel="nofollow" href="?node_id=3333;parent=11163201">[reply]</a></td></tr> <tr class="reply" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td colspan=2> <a name="11163221"></a> <ul class="indent"><ul class="indent"> <a href="?node_id=11163221">Re^3: Ideas for "fixing" PerlMonks 1.0</a> <br /> <span class="attribution">by <a href="?node_id=1068773">etj</a> <span class="attribution-title">(Priest)</span> on Dec 17, 2024 at 09:55 UTC</span> </ul></ul> </td></tr> <tr class='reply-body pmnote-1068773' bgcolor='ffffff'><td class='reply-body'><ul class='indent'><ul class='indent'><ul class='indent'>My experience tells me that throwing everything away and starting again can look like the easy way forward. You get to discard all those mistakes! But it's not just my experience that says it's a huge mistake: <a href="https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/">https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/</a>. Or perhaps you prefer a non-technical, parable version: <a href="https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/784709-suppose-that-a-great-commotion-arises-in-the-street-about">https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/784709-suppose-that-a-great-commotion-arises-in-the-street-about</a>.</ul></ul></ul></td><td class='reply-body adjunct-links' align='left' valign='bottom'><a rel="nofollow" href="?node_id=3333;parent=11163221">[reply]</a></td></tr> <tr class="reply" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td colspan=2> <a name="11163203"></a> <ul class="indent"><ul class="indent"> <a href="?node_id=11163203">Re^3: Ideas for "fixing" PerlMonks 1.0</a> <br /> <span class="attribution">by <a href="?node_id=708738">LanX</a> <span class="attribution-title">(Saint)</span> on Dec 16, 2024 at 19:30 UTC</span> </ul></ul> </td></tr> <tr class='reply-body pmnote-708738' bgcolor='ffffff'><td class='reply-body'><ul class='indent'><ul class='indent'><ul class='indent'><i>> But is it really worth the effort?</i><p> I think so, yes!<p> And I wouldn't try to implement a "modern" perl backend but start with an attractive JS frontend.<p> Most importantly I would be capable to do a POC without messing around with the local patch system.<p> YMMV. (Certainly)<p> <div class="pmsig"><div class="pmsig-708738"> <p>Cheers Rolf<br /> <sub>(addicted to the Perl Programming Language :) <br /> see <i> <a href="?node_id=1153804">Wikisyntax for the Monastery</a></i><p> </sub>  </div></div></ul></ul></ul></td><td class='reply-body adjunct-links' align='left' valign='bottom'><a rel="nofollow" href="?parent=11163203;node_id=3333">[reply]</a></td></tr> <tr class="reply" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td colspan=2> <a name="11163207"></a> <ul class="indent"><ul class="indent"><ul class="indent"> <a href="?node_id=11163207">Re^4: Ideas for "fixing" PerlMonks 1.0</a> <br /> <span class="attribution">by <a href="?node_id=170442">jdporter</a> <span class="attribution-title">(Paladin)</span> on Dec 16, 2024 at 20:18 UTC</span> </ul></ul></ul> </td></tr> <tr class="reply" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td colspan=2> <a name="11163210"></a> <ul class="indent"><ul class="indent"><ul class="indent"><ul class="indent"> <a href="?node_id=11163210">Re^5: Ideas for "fixing" PerlMonks 1.0</a> <br /> <span class="attribution">by <a href="?node_id=708738">LanX</a> <span class="attribution-title">(Saint)</span> on Dec 16, 2024 at 20:54 UTC</span> </ul></ul></ul></ul> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor='cccccc'><td colspan='2'><ul class='indent'><ul class='indent'><ul class='indent'><ul class='indent'><ul class='indent'><i>Some notes below your <a href='?node_id=1072'>chosen depth</a> have not been shown here</i></ul></ul></ul></ul></ul></td></tr></table> </div><p><div class="link-back back-to"> Back to <a href="?node=Perl%20Monks%20Discussion">Perl Monks Discussion</a> </div></p>   </td>  <td width="20%" valign="top" align="right" class="nodelets">  <table class='nodelet_container' id='nodelet_container'>  <tbody class="nodelet" id="Log_In"> <tr><th class="nodelet_head"> <span class="title">Log In</span><a href="?node=About The Log In Nodelet" class="nodelethead-annot"><sup>?</sup></a> </th></tr> <tr><td class="nodelet_body"> <form method="post" action="?" 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Level 24. Member of: pmdev" href="?node_id=832495">choroba</a></span></span></span></span></li> <li><span class='odd-row'><span class='item-001'><span class='user-level-20'><span class='user-200365'><a title="Tux's home node. Level 20" href="?node_id=200365">Tux</a></span></span></span></span></li> <li><span class='even-row'><span class='item-002'><span class='user-level-20'><span class='user-174111'><a title="Discipulus's home node. Level 20. Member of: janitors" href="?node_id=174111">Discipulus</a></span></span></span></span></li> <li><span class='odd-row'><span class='item-003'><span class='user-level-1'><span class='user-11155664'><a href="?node_id=11155664" title="chatterbot's home node. Level 1">chatterbot</a></span></span></span></span></li> </ul><span class='update-time'><small>As of 2025-02-26 11:53 GMT</small></span> </td></tr> </tbody>  <tbody class="nodelet" id="Sections"> <tr><th class="nodelet_head"> <span class="title">Sections</span><a href="?node=About The Sections Nodelet" class="nodelethead-annot"><sup>?</sup></a> </th></tr> <tr><td class="nodelet_body"> <ul class="spacey-list"> <li><a href="?node=Seekers%20of%20Perl%20Wisdom">Seekers of Perl Wisdom</a></li> <li><a href="?node=Cool%20Uses%20for%20Perl">Cool Uses for Perl</a></li> <li><a href="?node=Meditations">Meditations</a></li> <li><a href="?node=Perl%20Monks%20Discussion">PerlMonks Discussion</a></li> <li><a href="?node=Categorized%20Questions%20and%20Answers">Categorized Q&A</a></li> <li><a href="?node=Tutorials">Tutorials</a></li> <li><a href="?node=Obfuscated%20Code">Obfuscated Code</a></li> <li><a href="?node=Perl%20Poetry">Perl Poetry</a></li> <li><a href="?node=Perl%20News">Perl News</a></li> 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