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class="vector-toc-link" href="#2_paras_cut_from_'Original_Position'"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">4</span> <span>2 paras cut from 'Original Position'</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-2_paras_cut_from_'Original_Position'-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Utilitarianism" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Utilitarianism"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">5</span> <span>Utilitarianism</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Utilitarianism-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Focus_on_Utilitarianism" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Focus_on_Utilitarianism"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">6</span> <span>Focus on Utilitarianism</span> </div> </a> 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id="toc-First_principle" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#First_principle"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">9</span> <span>First principle</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-First_principle-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-remove_"Secondary_Sources"_warning?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#remove_"Secondary_Sources"_warning?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">10</span> <span>remove "Secondary Sources" warning?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-remove_"Secondary_Sources"_warning?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Removed_unsourced_comment" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Removed_unsourced_comment"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">11</span> <span>Removed unsourced comment</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Removed_unsourced_comment-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Assessment_comment" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Assessment_comment"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">12</span> <span>Assessment comment</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Assessment_comment-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Thin_Theory_of_The_Good_and_Priority_of_Liberty" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Thin_Theory_of_The_Good_and_Priority_of_Liberty"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">13</span> <span>Thin Theory of The Good and Priority of Liberty</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Thin_Theory_of_The_Good_and_Priority_of_Liberty-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-The_lead_is_incorrect." class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#The_lead_is_incorrect."> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">14</span> <span>The lead is incorrect.</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-The_lead_is_incorrect.-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-robert_nozick_-_a_passing_mention?_some_notes_on_"influence_and_reception"" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a 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innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Socrates.png" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Socrates.png/16px-Socrates.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Socrates.png/25px-Socrates.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Socrates.png/32px-Socrates.png 2x" data-file-width="326" data-file-height="500"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Philosophy" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy">Philosophy</a><span class="wpb-nested-task-force">: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Philosophy/Philosophical_literature" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy/Philosophical literature">Literature</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Philosophy/Ethics" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy/Ethics">Ethics</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Philosophy/Social_and_political" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy/Social and political">Social and political</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Philosophy/Contemporary" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy/Contemporary">Contemporary</a></span> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-mid">Mid‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Socrates.png" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Socrates.png/50px-Socrates.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="77" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Socrates.png/75px-Socrates.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Socrates.png/100px-Socrates.png 2x" data-file-width="326" data-file-height="500"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1259569809">.mw-parser-output .portalbox{padding:0;margin:0.5em 0;display:table;box-sizing:border-box;max-width:175px;list-style:none}.mw-parser-output .portalborder{border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:0.1em;background:var(--background-color-neutral-subtle,#f8f9fa)}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-entry{display:table-row;font-size:85%;line-height:110%;height:1.9em;font-style:italic;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-image{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em;vertical-align:middle;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-link{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em;vertical-align:middle}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .portalleft{clear:left;float:left;margin:0.5em 1em 0.5em 0}.mw-parser-output .portalright{clear:right;float:right;margin:0.5em 0 0.5em 1em}}</style><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Socrates.png/18px-Socrates.png" decoding="async" width="18" height="28" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Socrates.png/27px-Socrates.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Socrates.png/36px-Socrates.png 2x" data-file-width="326" data-file-height="500"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Philosophy" title="Portal:Philosophy">Philosophy portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Philosophy" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy">WikiProject Philosophy</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of content related to <a href="/wiki/Philosophy" title="Philosophy">philosophy</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Philosophy" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Philosophy">general discussion</a></b> about philosophy content on Wikipedia.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Philosophy</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Philosophy</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Philosophy articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-mid"><a href="/wiki/Category:Mid-importance_Philosophy_articles" title="Category:Mid-importance Philosophy articles">Mid</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Mid-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Philosophy/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3" class="wpb-collapsed-notes"><table class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"><tbody><tr><th colspan="3" class="wpb-collapsed-head">Associated task forces:</th></tr><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-gutter" style="min-width:50px"><span class="wpb-iefix">/ </span></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Location_dot_dark_red.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Location_dot_dark_red.svg/15px-Location_dot_dark_red.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Location_dot_dark_red.svg/23px-Location_dot_dark_red.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Location_dot_dark_red.svg/30px-Location_dot_dark_red.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="30" data-file-height="30"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Philosophy/Philosophical_literature" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy/Philosophical literature">Philosophical literature</a></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Location_dot_dark_red.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Location_dot_dark_red.svg/15px-Location_dot_dark_red.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Location_dot_dark_red.svg/23px-Location_dot_dark_red.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Location_dot_dark_red.svg/30px-Location_dot_dark_red.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="30" data-file-height="30"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Philosophy/Ethics" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy/Ethics">Ethics</a></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Location_dot_dark_red.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Location_dot_dark_red.svg/15px-Location_dot_dark_red.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Location_dot_dark_red.svg/23px-Location_dot_dark_red.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Location_dot_dark_red.svg/30px-Location_dot_dark_red.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="30" data-file-height="30"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Philosophy/Social_and_political" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy/Social and political">Social and political philosophy</a></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Location_dot_dark_red.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Location_dot_dark_red.svg/15px-Location_dot_dark_red.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Location_dot_dark_red.svg/23px-Location_dot_dark_red.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Location_dot_dark_red.svg/30px-Location_dot_dark_red.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="30" data-file-height="30"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Philosophy/Contemporary" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy/Contemporary">Contemporary philosophy</a></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259570071"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:A_coloured_voting_box.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/01/A_coloured_voting_box.svg/25px-A_coloured_voting_box.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/01/A_coloured_voting_box.svg/38px-A_coloured_voting_box.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/01/A_coloured_voting_box.svg/50px-A_coloured_voting_box.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="160" data-file-height="160"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Politics" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Politics">Politics</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-mid">Mid‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:A_coloured_voting_box.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/01/A_coloured_voting_box.svg/50px-A_coloured_voting_box.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/01/A_coloured_voting_box.svg/75px-A_coloured_voting_box.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/01/A_coloured_voting_box.svg/100px-A_coloured_voting_box.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="160" data-file-height="160"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259569809"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li 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To improve this article, please refer to the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BOOKS#Article_structure" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BOOKS">relevant guideline for the type of work</a>.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Books</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Books</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Books</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Book articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Original_Principles" data-mw-thread-id="h-Original_Principles-2005-10-13T23:11:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Original_Principles-2005-10-13T23:11:00.000Z"></span>Original Principles<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Original_Principles-2005-10-13T23:11:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Original Principles"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-ElectricRay-2005-10-13T23:11:00.000Z-Original_Principles"></span>I'm reading/researching Rawls at the moment, and I must say that some of this article while generally fair is technically somewhat sloppy. For example, in as much as the sentence "Rawls specifically excludes Freedom of Contract" is taken to imply that Rawls said "...and, by the way, freedom of contract isn't counted as an inalienable natural right", or some such thing - and that's how I read it - it's simply not true. Freedom of Contract doesn't (to my eyes - prepared to stand corrected) get any mention at all, so I suppose is "specifically excluded" in that it isn't specifically included. Whether this is what Rawls <i>meant</i> to say is the subject of some debate - see <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.creum.umontreal.ca/IMG/pdf/Unconscionability7b--Spector.pdf">Horacio Spector's "A contractarian approach to unconscionability", note 56</a>, which cites some of the academic literature on this point. I have basically deleted the oringal summary and replaced it with an extract from Rawls' actual book, which has the benefit of being not only more accurate, but shorter! <a href="/wiki/User:ElectricRay" title="User:ElectricRay">ElectricRay</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-ElectricRay-2005-10-13T23:11:00.000Z-Original_Principles" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:11, 13 October 2005 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-ElectricRay-2005-10-13T23:11:00.000Z-Original_Principles"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-ElectricRay-2005-10-13T23:11:00.000Z-Original_Principles"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Blackmagicfish-2008-06-23T22:59:00.000Z-ElectricRay-2005-10-13T23:11:00.000Z"></span>In the chapter "Two Principles of Justice," he writes, "Of course, liberties not on the list, for example, the right to own certain kinds of property (e.g.) means of production) and freedom of contract as understood by the doctrine of laissez-faire are not basic; and so they are not protected by the priority of the first principle." It seems clear to me that he is specifically excluding freedom of contract.--<a href="/wiki/User:Blackmagicfish" title="User:Blackmagicfish">Blackmagicfish</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Blackmagicfish" title="User talk:Blackmagicfish">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-Blackmagicfish-2008-06-23T22:59:00.000Z-ElectricRay-2005-10-13T23:11:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:59, 23 June 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Blackmagicfish-2008-06-23T22:59:00.000Z-ElectricRay-2005-10-13T23:11:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Blackmagicfish-2008-06-23T22:59:00.000Z-ElectricRay-2005-10-13T23:11:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Aquamonkey-2009-12-10T14:15:00.000Z-Blackmagicfish-2008-06-23T22:59:00.000Z"></span>I agree - Rawls clearly excludes it from the list of liberties he thinks would be enacted as a result of of his argument. It's wrong to say "It is a matter of some debate whether freedom of contract can be inferred to be included among these basic liberties", especially without sourcing it. I'm removing it. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Aquamonkey&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Aquamonkey (page does not exist)">Aquamonkey</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Aquamonkey" title="User talk:Aquamonkey">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-Aquamonkey-2009-12-10T14:15:00.000Z-Blackmagicfish-2008-06-23T22:59:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:15, 10 December 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Aquamonkey-2009-12-10T14:15:00.000Z-Blackmagicfish-2008-06-23T22:59:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Aquamonkey-2009-12-10T14:15:00.000Z-Blackmagicfish-2008-06-23T22:59:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Personal_Interests_or_Personal_Circumstances?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Personal_Interests_or_Personal_Circumstances?-2005-10-12T22:42:00.000Z"><span id="Personal_Interests_or_Personal_Circumstances.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Personal_Interests_or_Personal_Circumstances?-2005-10-12T22:42:00.000Z"></span>Personal <i>Interests</i> or Personal <i>Circumstances</i>?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Personal_Interests_or_Personal_Circumstances?-2005-10-12T22:42:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Personal Interests or Personal Circumstances?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-ElectricRay-2005-10-12T22:42:00.000Z-Personal_Interests_or_Personal_Circumstances?"></span>I would like to consider proposing an edit to the statement that Rawls' veil of ignorance was intended to eluicidate a "judgment [that] would not be clouded by knowledge of our own personal interests." </p><p>The way I read this was that Rawls was trying to excise personal <i>interests</i> from the consideration of people when attempting to formulate the principles of justice in a fair community. This is contradictory with settled economic theory and, indeed, the idea of democracy - which assumes you should be allowed to vote <i>entirely</i> based on your personal interests), and I don't think Rawls' philosophy intended to make that claim. </p><p>Consider this from P 11 from <a href="/wiki/A_Theory_of_Justice" title="A Theory of Justice">A Theory of Justice</a>: </p> <dl><dd><i>They are the principles that <b>rational and free persons concerned to further their own interests</b> would accept in an initial position of equality as defining the fundamentals of the terms of their association. These principles are to regulate all further agreements; they specify the kinds of social co-operation that can be entered into and the forms of government that can be established. This way of regarding the principles of justice I shall call fairness.</i></dd></dl> <p>Rawls clearly contemplates they should be based on a concept of self interest, but that personal <b>circumstances</b> would not be known, rather than personal <b>interests</b>. This might seem like a finnicky point - but I was led by the Wikipedia article to completely misunderstand Rawls' position based on it. </p><p>I have made the edit; just wanted to explain my reasons. <a href="/wiki/User:ElectricRay" title="User:ElectricRay">ElectricRay</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-ElectricRay-2005-10-12T22:42:00.000Z-Personal_Interests_or_Personal_Circumstances?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:42, 12 October 2005 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-ElectricRay-2005-10-12T22:42:00.000Z-Personal_Interests_or_Personal_Circumstances?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-ElectricRay-2005-10-12T22:42:00.000Z-Personal_Interests_or_Personal_Circumstances?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sam_Clark-2006-11-26T18:25:00.000Z-ElectricRay-2005-10-12T22:42:00.000Z"></span>This is another far-too-late response, but no, Rawls does indeed mean the veil of ignorance to exclude knowledge of <i>personal</i> interests as well as personal circumstances. For Rawls, everyone has a conception of the good - a rational plan of how her life would go best. But the decision in the original position is made in ignorance of what exactly my conception of the good is: I know I have one, and therefore that I have some personal interests; but I don't know what they are. That's why the goods to be distributed by whatever system of justice is chosen are <i>primary</i> goods: all-purpose means which will help achieve <i>any</i> conception of the good. Cheers, <a href="/wiki/User:Sam_Clark" title="User:Sam Clark">Sam Clark</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-Sam_Clark-2006-11-26T18:25:00.000Z-ElectricRay-2005-10-12T22:42:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:25, 26 November 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sam_Clark-2006-11-26T18:25:00.000Z-ElectricRay-2005-10-12T22:42:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sam_Clark-2006-11-26T18:25:00.000Z-ElectricRay-2005-10-12T22:42:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="1999_revision" data-mw-thread-id="h-1999_revision-2006-11-21T19:33:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-1999_revision-2006-11-21T19:33:00.000Z"></span>1999 revision<span data-mw-comment-end="h-1999_revision-2006-11-21T19:33:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: 1999 revision"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sam_Clark-2006-11-21T19:33:00.000Z-1999_revision"></span>I never heard that the book was revised in 1999. Anyone able to support this claim or deliver sources? And I'd be highly interested in what the changes were. --<a href="/wiki/User:Denny" title="User:Denny">denny vrandečić</a> 16:42, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>Amazon have the edition I assume is being referred to:[<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/019825055X/ref=sr_aps_books_1_1/202-8831561-6239027">[1]</a>], published (in paperback) in 1999, which says revised edition on the cover. As for what was changed, I have no idea, although the amazon description says " The author has now revised the original edition to clear up a number of difficulties he and others have found in the original book..".<a href="/wiki/User:Silverfish" title="User:Silverfish">Silverfish</a> 17:03, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>I just wonder, if the 1999 edition is actually the 1975 revised edition, because I don't know if the 1975 changes were ever introduced in the english text or if they were only part of the translations - that is, was there a 1975 revised english edition actually? Or is the 1999 edition a second revision? I looked at Amazons description and didn't get any wiser on this. But thanks for the info. --<a href="/wiki/User:Denny" title="User:Denny">denny vrandečić</a> 20:59, Mar 24, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>The 1999 version is a fully revised 2nd edition, incorporating but going beyond the 1975 revisions. Cheers, <a href="/wiki/User:Sam_Clark" title="User:Sam Clark">Sam Clark</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-Sam_Clark-2006-11-21T19:33:00.000Z-1999_revision" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:33, 21 November 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sam_Clark-2006-11-21T19:33:00.000Z-1999_revision"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sam_Clark-2006-11-21T19:33:00.000Z-1999_revision"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="2_paras_cut_from_'Original_Position'" data-mw-thread-id="h-2_paras_cut_from_'Original_Position'"><span id="2_paras_cut_from_.27Original_Position.27"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-2_paras_cut_from_'Original_Position'"></span>2 paras cut from 'Original Position'<span data-mw-comment-end="h-2_paras_cut_from_'Original_Position'"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: 2 paras cut from 'Original Position'"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p>I cut two paragraphs, as they just don't seem to flow with the rest of the article, or be as well written, or even make much sense. Please feel free to reinsert them if you don't agree: -- <a href="/wiki/User:Nickj" title="User:Nickj">Nickj</a> 05:07, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC) </p><p>One major problem for Rawls' criticisms of the utilitarians can be formulated as follows. Rawls' main criticism of the utilitarian is that the theory is focused on the concept of the 'impartial observer'. However, his theory on 'justice as fairness', is itself based on a very similar notion. Justice as fairness derives its own justification from the 'veil of ignorance' which, through its impartiality will safeguard the standard of moral decision making. </p><p>However, it can be argued that the utilitarian stance is in a better position than Rawls' criticism of it for the following reason: Rawls seeks to ground his theory of justice in an altogether abstract model of impartiality, to safeguard his justifications and the 'fairness' of his theory. Utilitarianism seeks to ground its impartiality within the system in the actual contingent application of the theory; working from this to the more abstract concepts of 'moral utility', dispositionalism, and concepts of desire and preferences. Therefore, far from achieving its desired result, Rawls' criticism of utilitarianism seems only to make utilitarianism more, rather than less plausible. </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Utilitarianism" data-mw-thread-id="h-Utilitarianism-2005-10-29T04:42:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Utilitarianism-2005-10-29T04:42:00.000Z"></span>Utilitarianism<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Utilitarianism-2005-10-29T04:42:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: Utilitarianism"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jsn4-2005-10-29T04:42:00.000Z-Utilitarianism"></span>Not a big deal but I changed the last line in the 2nd Prinicple for accuracy. It now reads,"Rawls does not justify the suffering some people for the greater benefit of others (something many versions of utilitarianism seem to validate)." Rule Utilitarianism would seem to mostly avoid the problem and there are other more nuanced versions which would at the very least leave it an open question.--<a href="/wiki/User:Jsn4" title="User:Jsn4">Jsn4</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-Jsn4-2005-10-29T04:42:00.000Z-Utilitarianism" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:42, 29 October 2005 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jsn4-2005-10-29T04:42:00.000Z-Utilitarianism"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jsn4-2005-10-29T04:42:00.000Z-Utilitarianism"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Focus_on_Utilitarianism" data-mw-thread-id="h-Focus_on_Utilitarianism-2005-10-31T16:21:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Focus_on_Utilitarianism-2005-10-31T16:21:00.000Z"></span>Focus on Utilitarianism<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Focus_on_Utilitarianism-2005-10-31T16:21:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: Focus on Utilitarianism"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-RobJubb-2005-10-31T16:21:00.000Z-Focus_on_Utilitarianism"></span>I think the focus on utilitarianism in this piece is in general misplaced. Although Rawls does provide to my mind fairly conclusive arguments against utilitarianism, I don't think that's either his main purpose or the most interesting thing about theory of justice. Bearing in mind his earlier work on political obligation, it seems to me the main task of theory is to give an account of how it is that the restrictions on freedom which any state or society implies are justified. The original position and the principles derived from it, if they are compelling, are compelling because they show that we would rationally accept particular rules governing the distribution of the benefits of social cooperation absent any distribution of those benefits at all, and so in effect absent any coercion. We would freely agree to Rawls' society: that's what matters, I think. Because of this, I'd like to alter the article, so as to remove the emphasis on utilitarianism as philosophical motivation. I'll probably do this piecemeal over the next week or so, so if anyone has any objections, could they say so fairly sharpish. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:RobJubb&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:RobJubb (page does not exist)">RobJubb</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-RobJubb-2005-10-31T16:21:00.000Z-Focus_on_Utilitarianism" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:21, 31 October 2005 (UTC)</a>.<span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-RobJubb-2005-10-31T16:21:00.000Z-Focus_on_Utilitarianism"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-RobJubb-2005-10-31T16:21:00.000Z-Focus_on_Utilitarianism"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-117.233.109.98-20241029104400-RobJubb-2005-10-31T16:21:00.000Z"></span>न्याय मंजे काय रोलच्या न्यालचि संक्लना स्पस्ट करा <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/117.233.109.98" title="Special:Contributions/117.233.109.98">117.233.109.98</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:117.233.109.98&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:117.233.109.98 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-117.233.109.98-20241029104400-RobJubb-2005-10-31T16:21:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:44, 29 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-117.233.109.98-20241029104400-RobJubb-2005-10-31T16:21:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-117.233.109.98-20241029104400-RobJubb-2005-10-31T16:21:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-117.233.109.98-20241029104400-RobJubb-2005-10-31T16:21:00.000Z-1"></span>न्याय मंजे काय रोलच्या न्यालचि संक्लना स्पस्ट करा <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/117.233.109.98" title="Special:Contributions/117.233.109.98">117.233.109.98</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:117.233.109.98&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:117.233.109.98 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-117.233.109.98-20241029104400-RobJubb-2005-10-31T16:21:00.000Z-1" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:44, 29 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-117.233.109.98-20241029104400-RobJubb-2005-10-31T16:21:00.000Z-1"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-117.233.109.98-20241029104400-RobJubb-2005-10-31T16:21:00.000Z-1"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-117.233.109.98-20241029104400-RobJubb-2005-10-31T16:21:00.000Z-2"></span>न्याय मंजे काय रोलच्या न्यालचि संक्लना स्पस्ट करा <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/117.233.109.98" title="Special:Contributions/117.233.109.98">117.233.109.98</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:117.233.109.98&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:117.233.109.98 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-117.233.109.98-20241029104400-RobJubb-2005-10-31T16:21:00.000Z-2" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:44, 29 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-117.233.109.98-20241029104400-RobJubb-2005-10-31T16:21:00.000Z-2"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-117.233.109.98-20241029104400-RobJubb-2005-10-31T16:21:00.000Z-2"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Second_principle" data-mw-thread-id="h-Second_principle-2006-08-23T23:54:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Second_principle-2006-08-23T23:54:00.000Z"></span>Second principle<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Second_principle-2006-08-23T23:54:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice&action=edit&section=7" title="Edit section: Second principle"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-RobJubb-2006-08-23T23:54:00.000Z-Second_principle"></span>uhh someone has swapped a. and b. of the second principle for some reason and has failed to sawp the explanation below. </p><p>Yeah, I did, when I re-wrote the whole thing last winter, because that's the way round they're supposed to be. The difference principle should b) of the second principle, and, also, at some point, someone's removed the bit saying that a) - fair equality of opportunity - is lexically prior<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:RobJubb&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:RobJubb (page does not exist)">RobJubb</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-RobJubb-2006-08-23T23:54:00.000Z-Second_principle" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:54, 23 August 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-RobJubb-2006-08-23T23:54:00.000Z-Second_principle"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-RobJubb-2006-08-23T23:54:00.000Z-Second_principle"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sam_Clark-2006-11-21T19:29:00.000Z-RobJubb-2006-08-23T23:54:00.000Z"></span>I'm late to this, and in any case it's been put back, but (a) difference principle and then (b) fair equality of opportunity is the way round Rawls puts them, despite the lexical priority of (b) over (a). Cheers, <a href="/wiki/User:Sam_Clark" title="User:Sam Clark">Sam Clark</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-Sam_Clark-2006-11-21T19:29:00.000Z-RobJubb-2006-08-23T23:54:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sam_Clark-2006-11-21T19:29:00.000Z-RobJubb-2006-08-23T23:54:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sam_Clark-2006-11-21T19:29:00.000Z-RobJubb-2006-08-23T23:54:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><br/><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maxcanada-2008-12-25T23:11:00.000Z-Second_principle"></span> - It hasn't been corrected yet. Whatever their order, equality of opportunity comes before the difference principle lexically. --<a href="/wiki/User:Maxcanada" title="User:Maxcanada">Maxcanada</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maxcanada" title="User talk:Maxcanada">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-Maxcanada-2008-12-25T23:11:00.000Z-Second_principle" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:11, 25 December 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maxcanada-2008-12-25T23:11:00.000Z-Second_principle"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maxcanada-2008-12-25T23:11:00.000Z-Second_principle"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Rawls'_project" data-mw-thread-id="h-Rawls'_project-2006-11-21T16:34:00.000Z"><span id="Rawls.27_project"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Rawls'_project-2006-11-21T16:34:00.000Z"></span>Rawls' project<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Rawls'_project-2006-11-21T16:34:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice&action=edit&section=8" title="Edit section: Rawls' project"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sam_Clark-2006-11-21T16:34:00.000Z-Rawls'_project"></span>Hi. This: </p> <dl><dd>Rawls' primary objective in A Theory of Justice is to provide a solution to the problem of political obligation...</dd></dl> <p>seems to me to be pretty clearly mistaken. Rawls says next to nothing about political obligation in <i>A Theory of Justice</i>: the closest he comes is a brief discussion of civil disobedience, and the few index entries to 'political obligation' mostly lead to discussions of the obligations of people who hold political office, not of citizens in general. Rawls' project is to work out what justice requires in the organisation of society (rough answer: fair distribution of primary goods), not to explain why we should obey authority. I'd like to change the article to reflect this, but I'd like some input here first. Cheers, <a href="/wiki/User:Sam_Clark" title="User:Sam Clark">Sam Clark</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-Sam_Clark-2006-11-21T16:34:00.000Z-Rawls'_project" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:34, 21 November 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sam_Clark-2006-11-21T16:34:00.000Z-Rawls'_project"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sam_Clark-2006-11-21T16:34:00.000Z-Rawls'_project"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-82.18.226.22-2007-06-14T14:43:00.000Z-Rawls'_project"></span>I believe there should be some mention on his beliefs about civil disobedience. To "work out what justice requires in the organisation of society" as you say, wouldn't there need to be a sense of moral responsibilty to obey the law? Hence, wouldn't there need to be a universal repect for society's law? Rawls' Theory of Fair Play would mean we should obey authority in order to allow a "fair distribution of primary goods". Do you see what i mean? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:82.18.226.22&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:82.18.226.22 (page does not exist)">82.18.226.22</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-82.18.226.22-2007-06-14T14:43:00.000Z-Rawls'_project" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:43, 14 June 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-82.18.226.22-2007-06-14T14:43:00.000Z-Rawls'_project"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-82.18.226.22-2007-06-14T14:43:00.000Z-Rawls'_project"></span> </p><p><br/><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Lorenking-2007-12-20T19:06:00.000Z-Rawls'_project"></span> I've fixed up this short opening passage to be truer to what Rawls says about his theory in ToJ - the problem of obligation, and of justification, rises to prominence in Political Liberalism, but I don't think it's right to describe the central concern of ToJ as being about political obligation. <a href="/wiki/User:Lorenking" title="User:Lorenking">Lorenking</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lorenking" title="User talk:Lorenking">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-Lorenking-2007-12-20T19:06:00.000Z-Rawls'_project" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:06, 20 December 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Lorenking-2007-12-20T19:06:00.000Z-Rawls'_project"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Lorenking-2007-12-20T19:06:00.000Z-Rawls'_project"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="First_principle" data-mw-thread-id="h-First_principle-2007-10-23T13:44:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-First_principle-2007-10-23T13:44:00.000Z"></span>First principle<span data-mw-comment-end="h-First_principle-2007-10-23T13:44:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice&action=edit&section=9" title="Edit section: First principle"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stayhomegal-2016-05-05T20:44:00.000Z-First_principle"></span>I was just wondering whether the first principle should be taken from p.266 of the revised edition, considering that on p53, where the current wording in this article is taken from, says "the final version of the two principles is given in sec46...". </p><p>I'm not a Rawls expert, so I'm not going to change this myself. But maybe someone can change the wording of the first principle to read: "Each person is to have an equal right to the most extensive total system of equal basic liberties compatible with a similar system of liberty for all" (p266, revised edition). </p> <dl><dd>I agree, this edit sounds much better, and more like what Rawls was going for!<a href="/wiki/User:Stayhomegal" title="User:Stayhomegal">Stayhomegal</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stayhomegal" title="User talk:Stayhomegal">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-Stayhomegal-2016-05-05T20:44:00.000Z-First_principle" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:44, 5 May 2016 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stayhomegal-2016-05-05T20:44:00.000Z-First_principle"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stayhomegal-2016-05-05T20:44:00.000Z-First_principle"></span></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sometimesthinking-2007-10-23T13:44:00.000Z-First_principle"></span>(<a href="/wiki/User:Sometimesthinking" title="User:Sometimesthinking">Sometimesthinking</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-Sometimesthinking-2007-10-23T13:44:00.000Z-First_principle" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:44, 23 October 2007 (UTC)</a>)<span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sometimesthinking-2007-10-23T13:44:00.000Z-First_principle"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sometimesthinking-2007-10-23T13:44:00.000Z-First_principle"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="remove_"Secondary_Sources"_warning?" data-mw-thread-id="h-remove_"Secondary_Sources"_warning?-2009-03-09T15:18:00.000Z"><span id="remove_.22Secondary_Sources.22_warning.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-remove_"Secondary_Sources"_warning?-2009-03-09T15:18:00.000Z"></span>remove "Secondary Sources" warning?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-remove_"Secondary_Sources"_warning?-2009-03-09T15:18:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice&action=edit&section=10" title="Edit section: remove "Secondary Sources" warning?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Lorenking-2009-03-09T15:18:00.000Z-remove_"Secondary_Sources"_warning?"></span>The Wikipedia "sources warning" appears at the start of this entry: "This article needs references that appear in reliable third-party publications. Primary sources or sources affiliated with the subject are generally not sufficient for a Wikipedia article. Please add more appropriate citations from reliable sources. (January 2008)" </p><p>... but this doesn't seem justified by either the subject matter, or the present state of the article. </p><p>First, the criticisms and clarifications discussed in the article are now all appropriately sourced (I've just inserted some additional reference information for several of these); and </p><p>Second, the restriction on primary sources and "sources affiliated with the subject" seems a bit odd when (i) the primary source in question is the book that the article is about, and when the referenced articles are either (ii) the author's own elaborations and responses to criticisms, or (iii) the major published works that are either critical of the author's approach, or that make constructive contributions to the author's research programme. </p><p>Can we go ahead and remove the sources warning now? Thoughts? <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/User:Lorenking" title="User:Lorenking">Lorenking</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lorenking" title="User talk:Lorenking">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Lorenking" title="Special:Contributions/Lorenking">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-Lorenking-2009-03-09T15:18:00.000Z-remove_"Secondary_Sources"_warning?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:18, 9 March 2009 (UTC)</a></span></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Lorenking-2009-03-09T15:18:00.000Z-remove_"Secondary_Sources"_warning?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Lorenking-2009-03-09T15:18:00.000Z-remove_"Secondary_Sources"_warning?"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Removed_unsourced_comment" data-mw-thread-id="h-Removed_unsourced_comment-2014-10-03T23:57:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Removed_unsourced_comment-2014-10-03T23:57:00.000Z"></span>Removed unsourced comment<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Removed_unsourced_comment-2014-10-03T23:57:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice&action=edit&section=11" title="Edit section: Removed unsourced comment"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <blockquote><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-86.176.44.184-2014-10-03T23:57:00.000Z-Removed_unsourced_comment"></span>The result is both <i>hypothetical</i> and <i>ahistorical</i>. It is hypothetical because, the agreement of parties is under hypothetical conditions only. In reality they may not reach the same agreement. The principles of justice are what <i>would</i> be agreed upon if people were in the hypothetical situation of the original position. </p><p>It is ahistorical because such agreement has never been, derived in the real world outside of carefully limited experimental exercises. </p> </blockquote> <p>I just removed this from the wiki, for three reasons. </p><p>A) I don't think it's true. B) It's POV C) It wasn't cited sufficiently. </p><p>Someone reversed my edit, stating lots more of the article hadn't been cited and could be removed on the same grounds. So I'd like this paragraph to either be removed, or this warning to reappear on the page please. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/86.176.44.184" title="Special:Contributions/86.176.44.184">86.176.44.184</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:86.176.44.184" title="User talk:86.176.44.184">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-86.176.44.184-2014-10-03T23:57:00.000Z-Removed_unsourced_comment" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:57, 3 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-86.176.44.184-2014-10-03T23:57:00.000Z-Removed_unsourced_comment"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-86.176.44.184-2014-10-03T23:57:00.000Z-Removed_unsourced_comment"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Assessment_comment" data-mw-thread-id="h-Assessment_comment-2007-07-21T00:46:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Assessment_comment-2007-07-21T00:46:00.000Z"></span>Assessment comment<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Assessment_comment-2007-07-21T00:46:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice&action=edit&section=12" title="Edit section: Assessment comment"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Anarchia-2007-07-21T00:46:00.000Z-Assessment_comment"></span> The comment(s) below were originally left at <span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice/Comments&redirect=no">Talk:A Theory of Justice/Comments</a></span>, and are posted here for posterity. Following <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DCS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DCS">several discussions in past years</a>, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.</p><table style="width:100%; background-color:#eaf8f4; border-left:3px solid #008560;"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2">This article needs more references, parts of it need rewriting, and other parts need checking for accuracy or expanding. It seems more than start, but not a B. <a href="/wiki/User:Anarchia" title="User:Anarchia">Anarchia</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-Anarchia-2007-07-21T00:46:00.000Z-Assessment_comment" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:46, 21 July 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Anarchia-2007-07-21T00:46:00.000Z-Assessment_comment"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Anarchia-2007-07-21T00:46:00.000Z-Assessment_comment"></span></td></tr> </tbody></table> <p>Last edited at 00:46, 21 July 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 06:20, 29 April 2016 (UTC) </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Thin_Theory_of_The_Good_and_Priority_of_Liberty" data-mw-thread-id="h-Thin_Theory_of_The_Good_and_Priority_of_Liberty-2016-05-05T20:43:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Thin_Theory_of_The_Good_and_Priority_of_Liberty-2016-05-05T20:43:00.000Z"></span>Thin Theory of The Good and Priority of Liberty<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Thin_Theory_of_The_Good_and_Priority_of_Liberty-2016-05-05T20:43:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice&action=edit&section=13" title="Edit section: Thin Theory of The Good and Priority of Liberty"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stayhomegal-2016-05-05T20:43:00.000Z-Thin_Theory_of_The_Good_and_Priority_of_Liberty"></span>I'm in a class right now that is mostly Rawlsian, and my professor emphasized heavily The Thin Theory of the Good, and The Priority of Liberty. I added in a sentence for each to this page, but if my edits do not flow well or need more clarification, please feel free to let me know :)<a href="/wiki/User:Stayhomegal" title="User:Stayhomegal">Stayhomegal</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stayhomegal" title="User talk:Stayhomegal">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-Stayhomegal-2016-05-05T20:43:00.000Z-Thin_Theory_of_The_Good_and_Priority_of_Liberty" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:43, 5 May 2016 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stayhomegal-2016-05-05T20:43:00.000Z-Thin_Theory_of_The_Good_and_Priority_of_Liberty"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stayhomegal-2016-05-05T20:43:00.000Z-Thin_Theory_of_The_Good_and_Priority_of_Liberty"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="The_lead_is_incorrect." data-mw-thread-id="h-The_lead_is_incorrect.-2017-05-07T15:43:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-The_lead_is_incorrect.-2017-05-07T15:43:00.000Z"></span>The lead is incorrect.<span data-mw-comment-end="h-The_lead_is_incorrect.-2017-05-07T15:43:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice&action=edit&section=14" title="Edit section: The lead is incorrect."><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Foofighter20x-2017-05-07T15:43:00.000Z-The_lead_is_incorrect."></span>My edit was reverted. I suggest the reverting editor go back and reread Rawls's first chapter; particularly the first paragraph of section three therein. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Foofighter20x" title="User:Foofighter20x">Foofighter20x</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Foofighter20x" title="User talk:Foofighter20x">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-Foofighter20x-2017-05-07T15:43:00.000Z-The_lead_is_incorrect." class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:43, 7 May 2017 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Foofighter20x-2017-05-07T15:43:00.000Z-The_lead_is_incorrect."><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Foofighter20x-2017-05-07T15:43:00.000Z-The_lead_is_incorrect."></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-FreeKnowledgeCreator-2017-05-07T18:08:00.000Z-Foofighter20x-2017-05-07T15:43:00.000Z"></span>Your edit was reverted because it was inaccurate. A Theory of Justice is specifically about distributive justice, not "Social institutions" in general (a ridiculous idea). <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:FreeKnowledgeCreator&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:FreeKnowledgeCreator (page does not exist)">FreeKnowledgeCreator</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:FreeKnowledgeCreator" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:FreeKnowledgeCreator">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-FreeKnowledgeCreator-2017-05-07T18:08:00.000Z-Foofighter20x-2017-05-07T15:43:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:08, 7 May 2017 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-FreeKnowledgeCreator-2017-05-07T18:08:00.000Z-Foofighter20x-2017-05-07T15:43:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-FreeKnowledgeCreator-2017-05-07T18:08:00.000Z-Foofighter20x-2017-05-07T15:43:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-204.134.235.163-2018-12-12T03:28:00.000Z-The_lead_is_incorrect."></span>Just got done reading this book front to cover for a class. This page has a lot of things wrong, especially the opening. <small class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/204.134.235.163" title="Special:Contributions/204.134.235.163">204.134.235.163</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:204.134.235.163&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:204.134.235.163 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-204.134.235.163-2018-12-12T03:28:00.000Z-The_lead_is_incorrect." class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:28, 12 December 2018 (UTC)</a></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-204.134.235.163-2018-12-12T03:28:00.000Z-The_lead_is_incorrect."><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-204.134.235.163-2018-12-12T03:28:00.000Z-The_lead_is_incorrect."></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="robert_nozick_-_a_passing_mention?_some_notes_on_"influence_and_reception"" data-mw-thread-id="h-robert_nozick_-_a_passing_mention?_some_notes_on_"influence_and_reception"-20240306202700"><span id="robert_nozick_-_a_passing_mention.3F_some_notes_on_.22influence_and_reception.22"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-robert_nozick_-_a_passing_mention?_some_notes_on_"influence_and_reception"-20240306202700"></span>robert nozick - a passing mention? some notes on "influence and reception"<span data-mw-comment-end="h-robert_nozick_-_a_passing_mention?_some_notes_on_"influence_and_reception"-20240306202700"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice&action=edit&section=15" title="Edit section: robert nozick - a passing mention? some notes on "influence and reception""><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Meikkon-20240306202700-robert_nozick_-_a_passing_mention?_some_notes_on_"influence_and_reception""></span>hey everyone, just your neighbourhood nozickian passing through this rawlsian neck of the woods. </p><p>I couldn't help but notice that nozick gets but a passing mention on the page, despite the fact that rawls is very often taught alongside nozick in a "rawls v nozick" fashion. I think this is a bit of a disservice to the criticism section, as nozick's book dedicated entire sections to refutations of rawls arguments, and spawned a whole academic debate in its own right. </p><p>this section could do with some improvements I think. all the names are here - you got mills in there, sen, gerry cohen, okin, all the big ones. the section on mills is especially good...but the rest are a bit disjointed and left wanting. going from sandel, to okin, to arrow / harsanyi seems a bit random to me. it would be better if we could organise these more clearly, where each paragraph is dedicated to one clear sustained criticism. for example: </p><p>-start w/ the libertarian critiques of rawls; headed by nozick, maybe some minor critiques from other econ libs of the time. </p><p>-now the feminist response, okin and the likes </p><p>-the marxist response, headed by gerry cohen </p><p>-and the postcolonial critique, headed by mills </p><p>doesn't have to be <i>exactly</i> like this obviously, but you get the idea. I'm really not an expert on rawls tbh but this section is super important imo as rawls spawned a huge debate in political philosophy that we're still having on campuses everywhere, so characterising all sides of this debate clearly is imperative. </p><p>I may return to this at a later date, but right now more focused on nozick. I'll get a bit more done on that project then maybe look more into rawls after. <a href="/wiki/User:Meikkon" title="User:Meikkon">Meikkon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Meikkon" title="User talk:Meikkon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Theory_of_Justice#c-Meikkon-20240306202700-robert_nozick_-_a_passing_mention?_some_notes_on_"influence_and_reception"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:27, 6 March 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Meikkon-20240306202700-robert_nozick_-_a_passing_mention?_some_notes_on_"influence_and_reception""><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Meikkon-20240306202700-robert_nozick_-_a_passing_mention?_some_notes_on_"influence_and_reception""></span> </p>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1&useformat=desktop" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; 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