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data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ToggleSwitchWidget","href":"\/w\/index.php?title=Talk:Aaron_Klein&diff=310069074&oldid=310050030&diff-type=inline","value":false,"title":"Switches between inline format and two-column format"}'><span class='oo-ui-toggleSwitchWidget-glow'></span><a href='/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aaron_Klein&diff=310069074&oldid=310050030&diff-type=inline'><span class='oo-ui-toggleSwitchWidget-grip'></span></a></div></div></div></div></div></div><table class="diff diff-type-table diff-contentalign-left diff-editfont-monospace" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" class="diff-otitle diff-side-deleted"><div id="mw-diff-otitle1"><strong><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aaron_Klein&oldid=310050030" title="Talk:Aaron Klein">Revision as of 21:56, 25 August 2009</a> <span class="mw-diff-edit"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aaron_Klein&action=edit&oldid=310050030" title="Talk:Aaron Klein">edit</a></span><span class="mw-diff-timestamp" data-timestamp="2009-08-25T21:56:28Z"></span></strong></div><div id="mw-diff-otitle2"><a href="/wiki/User:Wikidemon" class="mw-userlink" title="User:Wikidemon" data-mw-revid="310050030"><bdi>Wikidemon</bdi></a> <span class="mw-usertoollinks">(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikidemon" class="mw-usertoollinks-talk" title="User talk:Wikidemon">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Wikidemon" class="mw-usertoollinks-contribs" title="Special:Contributions/Wikidemon">contribs</a>)</span><div class="mw-diff-usermetadata"><div class="mw-diff-userroles"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Autopatrolled" title="Wikipedia:Autopatrolled">Autopatrolled</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Extended_confirmed_editors" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Extended confirmed editors">Extended confirmed users</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Reviewing_pending_changes" title="Wikipedia:Reviewing pending changes">Pending changes reviewers</a></div><div class="mw-diff-usereditcount"><span>36,531</span> edits</div></div></div><div id="mw-diff-otitle3"> <span class="comment comment--without-parentheses"><span class="autocomment"><a href="#Personal_attacks_against_Klein">→<bdi dir="ltr">Personal attacks against Klein</bdi></a>: </span> clarify statement a bit</span></div><div id="mw-diff-otitle5"></div><div id="mw-diff-otitle4"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aaron_Klein&diff=prev&oldid=310050030" title="Talk:Aaron Klein" id="differences-prevlink">← Previous edit</a></div></td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-ntitle diff-side-added"><div id="mw-diff-ntitle1"><strong><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aaron_Klein&oldid=310069074" title="Talk:Aaron Klein">Revision as of 00:07, 26 August 2009</a> <span class="mw-diff-edit"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aaron_Klein&action=edit&oldid=310069074" title="Talk:Aaron Klein">edit</a></span><span class="mw-diff-timestamp" data-timestamp="2009-08-26T00:07:42Z"></span> <span class="mw-diff-undo"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aaron_Klein&action=edit&undoafter=310050030&undo=310069074" title=""Undo" reverts this edit and opens the edit form in preview mode. It allows adding a reason in the summary.">undo</a></span></strong></div><div id="mw-diff-ntitle2"><a href="/wiki/User:TharsHammar" class="mw-userlink" title="User:TharsHammar" data-mw-revid="310069074"><bdi>TharsHammar</bdi></a> <span class="mw-usertoollinks">(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TharsHammar" class="mw-usertoollinks-talk" title="User talk:TharsHammar">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/TharsHammar" class="mw-usertoollinks-contribs" title="Special:Contributions/TharsHammar">contribs</a>)</span><div class="mw-diff-usermetadata"><div class="mw-diff-userroles"></div><div class="mw-diff-usereditcount"><span>1,678</span> edits</div></div></div><div id="mw-diff-ntitle3"> <span class="comment comment--without-parentheses"><span class="autocomment"><a href="#Personal_attacks_against_Klein">→<bdi dir="ltr">Personal attacks against Klein</bdi></a></span></span></div><div id="mw-diff-ntitle5"></div><div id="mw-diff-ntitle4"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aaron_Klein&diff=next&oldid=310069074" title="Talk:Aaron Klein" id="differences-nextlink">Next edit →</a></div></td> </tr><tr> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 290:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 290:</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-deleted"><br /></td> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-added"><br /></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-deleted"><div>::Can we please stay on track and not use this page to make accusations about other editors? This is not the place, and if we go down that path the current effort to discuss a proposed article addition will probably degenerate to the point of paralysis. TharsHammar is not exactly the only editor whose editing here is subject to question. I don't understand the relevance of calling Klein "dumb" but his effort create a Wikipedia hoax was truly clumsy. Regarding his credentials, I don't think it's necessary to speculate on whether we should call him a journalist or not but he is clearly out of the mainstream in advancing discredited fringe "birther" theories, and has not applied the standard journalistic practices to his efforts. That ''is'' relevant to the content of the article, because when a journalist viewed as a reliable source self-reports what they observe as part of a news and analysis piece we can often report that without an in-line attribution - for example "students threw rocks at the embassy". In Klein's case we would have to say something like "Klein said [or "reported" if you wish] in an article in World Net Daily that students threw rocks at the embassy". We don't need to prejudice the reader with a judgment about its veracity, but we do need to make clear it is Klein making the claim, not a reliable source. [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 21:55, 25 August 2009 (UTC)</div></td> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-added"><div>::Can we please stay on track and not use this page to make accusations about other editors? This is not the place, and if we go down that path the current effort to discuss a proposed article addition will probably degenerate to the point of paralysis. TharsHammar is not exactly the only editor whose editing here is subject to question. I don't understand the relevance of calling Klein "dumb" but his effort create a Wikipedia hoax was truly clumsy. Regarding his credentials, I don't think it's necessary to speculate on whether we should call him a journalist or not but he is clearly out of the mainstream in advancing discredited fringe "birther" theories, and has not applied the standard journalistic practices to his efforts. That ''is'' relevant to the content of the article, because when a journalist viewed as a reliable source self-reports what they observe as part of a news and analysis piece we can often report that without an in-line attribution - for example "students threw rocks at the embassy". In Klein's case we would have to say something like "Klein said [or "reported" if you wish] in an article in World Net Daily that students threw rocks at the embassy". We don't need to prejudice the reader with a judgment about its veracity, but we do need to make clear it is Klein making the claim, not a reliable source. [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 21:55, 25 August 2009 (UTC)</div></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" class="diff-empty diff-side-deleted"></td> <td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td> <td class="diff-addedline diff-side-added"><div>:::IP, it is most likely you are Klein. He knows what goes on in his wikipedia page, he reads this. Your IP traces to the same service and the same town that he used to edit this page and turn it into a puff piece. I said he collaborated with terrorists because he did, and I explained how above. I was pointing that out in discussing how we should frame the incident where he helped the terrorists to terrorize Cohen. As far as him being a reporter goes, If someone hires me to hit objects with a bat that doesn't make me a baseball player. The rag he works for is not a legit or reliable news source, and Klein's writings there cannot be considered reporting. He writes for a publication - that by doesn't make him a reporter, that makes him a writer, and we should classify him as such here. Oh, and Legit - if you think what I did is against wikipedia policies, put up or be quiet. You know the venues to report me, go ahead and report me, I will respond to your false allegations in the appropriate venue if you or anyone else decides to take it there, until that time this is the last I will comment on your comments on the tenor my comments - so don't fill up this talk page with your false allegations. [[User:TharsHammar|TharsHammar]]<sup>'' [[Special:Contributions/TharsHammar|Bits]]''</sup> and<sup>''[[User_talk:TharsHammar#top|Pieces]]''</sup> 00:07, 26 August 2009 (UTC)</div></td> </tr> </table><hr class='diff-hr' id='mw-oldid' /> <h2 class='diff-currentversion-title'>Revision as of 00:07, 26 August 2009</h2> <div class="mw-content-ltr mw-parser-output" lang="en" dir="ltr"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1237879475">.mw-parser-output .tmbox{margin:4px 0;border-collapse:collapse;border:1px solid #c0c090;background-color:#f8eaba;box-sizing:border-box}.mw-parser-output .tmbox.mbox-small{font-size:88%;line-height:1.25em}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{border:2px solid #b32424;background-color:#fee7e6}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-delete{border:2px solid #b32424}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-content{border:2px solid #f28500}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-style{border:2px solid #fc3}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-move{border:2px solid #9932cc}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-text{border:none;padding:0.25em 0.9em;width:100%}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-image{border:none;padding:2px 0 2px 0.9em;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-imageright{border:none;padding:2px 0.9em 2px 0;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-empty-cell{border:none;padding:0;width:1px}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-invalid-type{text-align:center}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .tmbox{margin:4px 10%}.mw-parser-output .tmbox.mbox-small{clear:right;float:right;margin:4px 0 4px 1em;width:238px}}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .tmbox{background-color:#2e2505}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .tmbox{background-color:#2e2505}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}body.skin--responsive .mw-parser-output table.tmbox img{max-width:none!important}</style><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Clipboard.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="Articles for deletion"><img alt="Articles for deletion" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1f/Clipboard.svg/35px-Clipboard.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="35" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1f/Clipboard.svg/53px-Clipboard.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1f/Clipboard.svg/70px-Clipboard.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article was nominated for <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_policy" title="Wikipedia:Deletion policy">deletion</a> on 10 March 2009 (UTC). The result of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Aaron_Klein" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aaron Klein">the discussion</a> was <b>keep</b>.</td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1230750088">.mw-parser-output .talkheader{text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-body{display:flex}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts{display:flex;align-items:center;padding:0.1em}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help{flex:2 1 auto;border:1px solid #c0c090;background-color:var(--background-color-base,#ffffff);color:inherit}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies{flex:1 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies+.talkheader-policies{border-left:1px solid #c0c090}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts{flex:0 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help>*,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies>*,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts>*{flex:1 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help ul,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies ul{margin:0.1em 0.8em 0 1.6em;text-align:left}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .talkheader{min-width:80%}}</style><table role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice talkheader plainlinks" id="talkheader" style="border-collapse: separate;"><tbody><tr> <td style="border-bottom: 1px solid #c0c090; font-weight: bold;">This is the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines" title="Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines">talk page</a> for discussing improvements to the <a href="/wiki/Aaron_Klein" title="Aaron Klein">Aaron Klein</a> article.<br/> This is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#FORUM" title="Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not">not a forum</a> for general discussion of the article's subject.</td> </tr> <tr> <td> <div class="talkheader-body"> <div class="talkheader-help"> <ul><li>Put new text under old text. <strong><a href="/wiki/Special:NewSection/Talk:Aaron_Klein" title="Special:NewSection/Talk:Aaron Klein">Click here to start a new topic.</a></strong></li> <li>New to Wikipedia? 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Relevant policies and guidelines may include <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest" title="Wikipedia:Conflict of interest">conflict of interest</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Autobiography" title="Wikipedia:Autobiography">autobiography</a>, and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view">neutral point of view</a>. <ul><li><a href="/wiki/User:Jerusalem21" title="User:Jerusalem21">Jerusalem21</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jerusalem21" title="User talk:Jerusalem21">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jerusalem21" title="Special:Contributions/Jerusalem21">contribs</a>) This user has contributed to the article.</li></ul></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"> <table id="archivebox" role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice mbox-small" style="text-align: center; padding: 1em;"> <tbody><tr> <td style="padding:0.6em 0 0.25em;"> <div style="width:100%; overflow:hidden;"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/40px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/60px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/80px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="200" data-file-height="200"/></a></span><br/><b>Archives</b></div> </td></tr><tr> <td class="plainlinks"> </td></tr><tr><td class="plainlinks" style="padding:0px 10px; text-align:left;"> <p><a href="/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein/Archive_1" title="Talk:Aaron Klein/Archive 1">Archive 1</a> <small>(Aug 2006 - Dec 2008)</small><br/> <a href="/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein/Archive_2" title="Talk:Aaron Klein/Archive 2">Archive 2</a> <small>(early March 2009)</small><br/> <a href="/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein/Archive_3" title="Talk:Aaron Klein/Archive 3">Archive 3</a> <small>(April 2009 - )</small> </p> </td> </tr><tr><td style="padding-bottom:11px"><div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style=""><form name="searchbox" class="searchbox mw-inputbox-form" action="/wiki/Special:Search"><div class="cdx-text-input"><input class="mw-inputbox-input mw-searchInput searchboxInput cdx-text-input__input" name="search" placeholder="" size="22" dir="ltr"/></div><input type="hidden" value="Talk:Aaron Klein/" name="prefix"/><br/><input type="submit" name="fulltext" value="Search archives" class="cdx-button"/><input type="hidden" value="Search" name="fulltext"/></form></div> </td></tr> </tbody></table> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Terrorist_leader" data-mw-thread-id="h-Terrorist_leader-2009-07-15T16:20:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Terrorist_leader-2009-07-15T16:20:00.000Z"></span>Terrorist leader<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Terrorist_leader-2009-07-15T16:20:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-15T16:20:00.000Z-Terrorist_leader"></span>Sometimes life is just too funny for words. I love this new addition,<a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aaron_Klein&diff=302223071&oldid=298433368">[1]</a> although it's probably a bit TMI as a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WEIGHT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:WEIGHT">WP:WEIGHT</a> issue. Perhaps this works best as a section within the <a href="/wiki/Br%C3%BCno_(film)" class="mw-redirect" title="Brüno (film)">Brüno (film)</a> article, or as a stand-alone article. <a href="/wiki/User:Wikidemon" title="User:Wikidemon">Wikidemon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikidemon" title="User talk:Wikidemon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Wikidemon-2009-07-15T16:20:00.000Z-Terrorist_leader" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:20, 15 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-15T16:20:00.000Z-Terrorist_leader"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-15T16:20:00.000Z-Terrorist_leader"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T16:32:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-15T16:20:00.000Z"></span>Thanks, Wikidemon. Perhaps it does have a weight problem, or maybe a mere wordiness problem. Please feel free to pare it down somewhat (or build up other sections?). Let me take a stab at it too. And perhaps it should in part also go on the Bruno page, as you suggest. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T16:32:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-15T16:20:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:32, 15 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T16:32:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-15T16:20:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T16:32:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-15T16:20:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Athaenara-2009-07-15T16:35:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T16:32:00.000Z"></span>It's hard to know whether the "Brüno movie" section, which is longer than some of the articles about it (<i>e.g.</i> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.defamer.com.au/2009/07/bruno-may-have-manufactured-his-villain-says-reporter-who-manufactured-his-villain/#more-337677">this "Bruno May Have Manufactured His Villain" article</a>) is an attempt to coatrack some of the film's recent notability (such as it is) onto Klein or what.</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>I thought of blockquoting the whole thing here for discussion after plucking it out of the article but I think Wikidemon's link serves that purpose. — <a href="/wiki/User:Athaenara" title="User:Athaenara">Athaenara</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Athaenara" title="User talk:Athaenara"> ✉ </a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Athaenara-2009-07-15T16:35:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T16:32:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:35, 15 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Athaenara-2009-07-15T16:35:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T16:32:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Athaenara-2009-07-15T16:35:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T16:32:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T16:37:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-15T16:35:00.000Z"></span>I just removed 2 paragraphs. That should help. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T16:37:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-15T16:35:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:37, 15 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T16:37:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-15T16:35:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T16:37:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-15T16:35:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Athaenara-2009-07-15T16:44:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T16:37:00.000Z"></span>Some of it may belong in the article about the movie, or on a discussion board about anything and everything connected to Klein in any way, however tangential, but it's way over the top for this bio. — <a href="/wiki/User:Athaenara" title="User:Athaenara">Athaenara</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Athaenara" title="User talk:Athaenara"> ✉ </a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Athaenara-2009-07-15T16:44:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T16:37:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:44, 15 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Athaenara-2009-07-15T16:44:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T16:37:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Athaenara-2009-07-15T16:44:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T16:37:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T17:50:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-15T16:44:00.000Z"></span>Sheesh, that's a little harsh! Why not just trim it back to size? Klein's involvement in the matter is noteworthy, at a minimum. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T17:50:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-15T16:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:50, 15 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T17:50:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-15T16:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T17:50:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-15T16:44:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T18:13:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-15T16:44:00.000Z"></span>Athaenara, please reconsider your removal of the entire section. The threat against Baron Cohen became news precisely because Klein reported it. That is significant for this Aaron Klein wiki page. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T18:13:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-15T16:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:13, 15 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T18:13:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-15T16:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T18:13:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-15T16:44:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T20:34:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-15T16:44:00.000Z"></span>Consider this. Klein was part of the news. Others reporting on the threat reported it came in a statement from the terrorist group directly to Klein. <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/theampersand/archive/2009/07/14/terrorists-threaten-sacha-baron-cohen.aspx">Example</a>. I'm not saying a blog is newsworthy, I'm just showing you an example of why the deleted edit may be newsworthy for this page, at least with further pruning. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T20:34:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-15T16:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:34, 15 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T20:34:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-15T16:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T20:34:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-15T16:44:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TharsHammar-2009-07-15T23:49:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T20:34:00.000Z"></span>Klein via WND is NOT a reliable source. Until a RS publication decides to pick this story up and report as fact what Klein is reporting it should be left out of wikipedia. Take for example the link LegitimateAndEvenCompelling just posted, "It's with terrorists. WorldNetDaily's Jerusalem bureau chief Aaron Klein has announced that he received a statement from the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades". That does not indicate what Klein announced is true, it only that it is true Klein announced it. For all we know Klein could have just made up the whole conversation. <a href="/wiki/User:TharsHammar" title="User:TharsHammar">TharsHammar</a><sup><i> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/TharsHammar" title="Special:Contributions/TharsHammar">Bits</a></i></sup> and<sup><i><a href="/wiki/User_talk:TharsHammar#top" title="User talk:TharsHammar">Pieces</a></i></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-TharsHammar-2009-07-15T23:49:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T20:34:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:49, 15 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TharsHammar-2009-07-15T23:49:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T20:34:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TharsHammar-2009-07-15T23:49:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-15T20:34:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-16T05:58:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-15T23:49:00.000Z"></span>Well, that's why I gave about a half dozen sources. <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=103797">[2]</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/sns-viral-terrorist-to-sue-baron-cohen-story,0,5605601.htmlstory">[3]</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/13/ayman-abu-aita-brunos-ter_n_230443.html">[4]</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://news.lalate.com/2009/07/14/ayman-abu-aita-and-bruno/">[5]</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.hotindienews.com/2009/07/13/105056">[6]</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2009/07/13/afternoon-roundup-12/">[7]</a> Are none of them reliable? --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-16T05:58:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-15T23:49:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:58, 16 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-16T05:58:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-15T23:49:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-16T05:58:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-15T23:49:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AniMate-2009-07-16T06:08:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-16T05:58:00.000Z"></span>Only one of those sources mention Klein, and that's WND. I don't think anyone is doubting the veracity of this story, but you've done nothing to show that this is a notable event about <i>Klein</i>. By all means, it should be mentioned in the <i>Bruno</i> article, but it doesn't belong here. <a href="/wiki/User:AniMate" title="User:AniMate"><font face="Monotype Corsiva" color="black" size="3">AniMate</font></a><small><sup><b><a href="/wiki/User_talk:AniMate" title="User talk:AniMate"><font color="Black">draw</font></a></b></sup></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-AniMate-2009-07-16T06:08:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-16T05:58:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:08, 16 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AniMate-2009-07-16T06:08:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-16T05:58:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AniMate-2009-07-16T06:08:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-16T05:58:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TharsHammar-2009-07-16T09:59:00.000Z-AniMate-2009-07-16T06:08:00.000Z"></span>I am doubting the veracity of the story. The first link you give is the fringe WND. The second is a Baltimore Sun blog which is just a link to a HuffPo story. The Third is that HuffPo story, which does not definitively state Klein is telling the truth, and it is HuffPo. The LaLate news looks like a poorly put together blog. The next one is hotindienews which <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.hotindienews.com/about">[8]</a> is "an alternative voice to mainstream media" so it is not a RS unless otherwise shown to be. The final one is a wsj BLOG which links to WND. So yes, none of them are reliable! <a href="/wiki/User:TharsHammar" title="User:TharsHammar">TharsHammar</a><sup><i> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/TharsHammar" title="Special:Contributions/TharsHammar">Bits</a></i></sup> and<sup><i><a href="/wiki/User_talk:TharsHammar#top" title="User talk:TharsHammar">Pieces</a></i></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-TharsHammar-2009-07-16T09:59:00.000Z-AniMate-2009-07-16T06:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:59, 16 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TharsHammar-2009-07-16T09:59:00.000Z-AniMate-2009-07-16T06:08:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TharsHammar-2009-07-16T09:59:00.000Z-AniMate-2009-07-16T06:08:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-16T23:28:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-16T09:59:00.000Z"></span>Thanks. That's why we work together as a community. I'll see if I can find something better. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-16T23:28:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-16T09:59:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:28, 16 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-16T23:28:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-16T09:59:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-16T23:28:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-16T09:59:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TharsHammar-2009-07-16T23:51:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-16T23:28:00.000Z"></span>I have run into this problem with some things that I have thought of adding to articles. I sort of realized that if you have to really search for something in a RS but you find tons of unreliable sources it probably means its not worthy of inclusion. Just my $6. <a href="/wiki/User:TharsHammar" title="User:TharsHammar">TharsHammar</a><sup><i> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/TharsHammar" title="Special:Contributions/TharsHammar">Bits</a></i></sup> and<sup><i><a href="/wiki/User_talk:TharsHammar#top" title="User talk:TharsHammar">Pieces</a></i></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-TharsHammar-2009-07-16T23:51:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-16T23:28:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:51, 16 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TharsHammar-2009-07-16T23:51:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-16T23:28:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TharsHammar-2009-07-16T23:51:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-16T23:28:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Legit_source_found" data-mw-thread-id="h-Legit_source_found-Terrorist_leader-2009-07-17T04:17:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Legit_source_found-Terrorist_leader-2009-07-17T04:17:00.000Z"></span>Legit source found<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Legit_source_found-Terrorist_leader-2009-07-17T04:17:00.000Z"></span></h3></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T04:17:00.000Z-Legit_source_found"></span>Okay, folks, I believe I have now found the reliable source needed. </p><p>"<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/Movies/Story?id=8093067&page=1">'Bruno' Turns Sacha Baron Cohen Into Potential Terrorist Target; Palestinian Group Linked to Terror by U.S. Reportedly Furious at Comedian for Unwanted Role in 'Bruno</a>,'" by <b>Luchina Fisher</b>, <i>ABCnews</i>, 16 July 2009, highlighting mine: </p> <dl><dd>"It might be a threat, it might not be," <b>Aaron Klein, the WorldNet reporter who broke the story, told ABCNews.com</b>. "Every terrorist threat should be taken seriously."</dd></dl> <p>Okay, folks, I think that's the missing link. Read on in the article. Klein is quite significant in the article. His interviews with terrorists figure prominently. Bruno is a number one hit movie, at least this week. Terrorists have made threats against the actor. Klein is the one who made that story news. ABC News is a reliable source. I no longer see why the information should not be included on Klein's wiki page, citing to this ABC News source. </p><p>May I go ahead and add that in now? --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T04:17:00.000Z-Legit_source_found" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:17, 17 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T04:17:00.000Z-Legit_source_found"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T04:17:00.000Z-Legit_source_found"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-17T07:27:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T04:17:00.000Z"></span>No objsections here. The truth and verifiability are not an issue for me (my own opinion, not trying to generalize), and I think the material is encyclopedic - it adds to our understanding of Mr. Klein. So the only issue that remains is whether reliable sources see this as relevant and worth reporting. It's hard to tell because WND is in the business of generating publicity and sometimes they do that on their own without anyone else noticing. But if a reliable source says this is worth reading, then I would agree. <a href="/wiki/User:Wikidemon" title="User:Wikidemon">Wikidemon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikidemon" title="User talk:Wikidemon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Wikidemon-2009-07-17T07:27:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T04:17:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-17T07:27:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T04:17:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-17T07:27:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T04:17:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T07:40:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-17T07:27:00.000Z"></span>Cool. Other opinions? --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T07:40:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-17T07:27:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:40, 17 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T07:40:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-17T07:27:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T07:40:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-17T07:27:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-79.178.103.240-2009-07-17T10:13:00.000Z-Legit_source_found"></span>Klein is a large part of that ABC News story: </p><p>Per ABC News -- Klein said Al Aqsa, a militant group classified by the U.S. State Department as a terrorist organization loyal to the Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah Party, claims to have disbanded over the last two years but maintains a Web site, continues to take responsibility for terrorist attacks and has released several official statements including threats against Israel. </p><p>According to Klein, who is based in Jerusalem and has covered terrorists since 2005 and wrote the book, "Schmoozing with Terrorists," Al Aqsa is furious for being included in a film which deals with homosexuality. </p><p>"These are terrorists who are fundamentalist Islamists," he said. "They are offended by Hollywood in general," he said. "They are against feminism, gay rights and abortion." </p><p>"Once I asked them what would they do if found out one of their members was a homosexual," Klein added. "They said they would cut off his head. That's what they think of that issue." <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/79.178.103.240" title="Special:Contributions/79.178.103.240">79.178.103.240</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:79.178.103.240" title="User talk:79.178.103.240">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-79.178.103.240-2009-07-17T10:13:00.000Z-Legit_source_found" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:13, 17 July 2009 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-79.178.103.240-2009-07-17T10:13:00.000Z-Legit_source_found"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-79.178.103.240-2009-07-17T10:13:00.000Z-Legit_source_found"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TharsHammar-2009-07-17T10:16:00.000Z-79.178.103.240-2009-07-17T10:13:00.000Z"></span>Note the parsing of their words. "Klein said" ... "According to Klein" ... "he said". The simple point is they do not confirm the story, and thus we still do not know if it is true. What we know is true is that ABC said these things - we still don't know if it is true that Klein talked to those people. He has no credibility, and his organization has no credibility. <a href="/wiki/User:TharsHammar" title="User:TharsHammar">TharsHammar</a><sup><i> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/TharsHammar" title="Special:Contributions/TharsHammar">Bits</a></i></sup> and<sup><i><a href="/wiki/User_talk:TharsHammar#top" title="User talk:TharsHammar">Pieces</a></i></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-TharsHammar-2009-07-17T10:16:00.000Z-79.178.103.240-2009-07-17T10:13:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:16, 17 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TharsHammar-2009-07-17T10:16:00.000Z-79.178.103.240-2009-07-17T10:13:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TharsHammar-2009-07-17T10:16:00.000Z-79.178.103.240-2009-07-17T10:13:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T14:21:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-17T10:16:00.000Z"></span>That sounds harsh. You are saying he has no credibility in the face of his being in ABC News and now a mainstream newspaper reporting on him as a credible source. Hmmm. Whom to believe -- ABC News/The Plain Dealer or TharsHammar? Hmmm. Well, good thing Wiki rules control the playing field.</dd> <dd>Here's another reliable source: <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://www.cleveland.com/people/index.ssf/2009/07/sacha_baron_cohen_may_be_a_ter.html">http://www.cleveland.com/people/index.ssf/2009/07/sacha_baron_cohen_may_be_a_ter.html</a> --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T14:21:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-17T10:16:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:21, 17 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T14:21:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-17T10:16:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T14:21:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-17T10:16:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T14:33:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-17T10:16:00.000Z"></span>I think TharsHammar is saying Aaron Klein made up the story out of whole cloth. Where's the evidence? From where I stand, TharsHammar makes things up about Aaron Klein. It almost seems as if there is a personal animus TharsHammar has against Aaron Klein.</dd> <dd>What with TharsHammar's veiled argument that Klein is outright lying to ABC News, should consideration be given to removing his comment for violation of BLP or biography of living persons or whatever that is? --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T14:33:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-17T10:16:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:33, 17 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T14:33:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-17T10:16:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T14:33:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-17T10:16:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-17T15:53:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T14:33:00.000Z"></span>No, it's a real possibility. We know from the Wikipedia affair that Klein has printed claims he knew to be untrue. The whole thing is murky (but if you keep a positive outlook, it is truly funny and pretty harmless, or at the very least bizarre). Cohen for his part is deliberately deceptive, that's his schtick. If we can't test the plausibility and veracity of sources here on the talk page there's no point having a talk page. <a href="/wiki/User:Wikidemon" title="User:Wikidemon">Wikidemon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikidemon" title="User talk:Wikidemon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Wikidemon-2009-07-17T15:53:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T14:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:53, 17 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-17T15:53:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T14:33:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-17T15:53:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T14:33:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T16:06:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-17T15:53:00.000Z"></span>Right, but there's a difference between testing sources and calling the guy a liar. Further, the Wikipedia thing is a matter of perception; a minor thing blown up out of proportion; a thing all reporters do anyway as a rule. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T16:06:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-17T15:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:06, 17 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T16:06:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-17T15:53:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T16:06:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-17T15:53:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-17T17:28:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T16:06:00.000Z"></span>Agreed, it's not necessary to make any doubts about the reliability of the source any bigger than it is. The concern is whether this particular story is adequately supported by sources, and given the nature of Klein's publication and his column we would probably want a mainstream source of some kind to corroborate it rather than taking his word for exactly how it went down. I don't think it's reasonable to think he made it up out of whole cloth - it's pretty clear something happened. Per BLP we should be respectful, even here on a talk page. I just don't think it rises to the level of removing people's comments... <a href="/wiki/User:Wikidemon" title="User:Wikidemon">Wikidemon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikidemon" title="User talk:Wikidemon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Wikidemon-2009-07-17T17:28:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T16:06:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:28, 17 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-17T17:28:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T16:06:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-17T17:28:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T16:06:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TharsHammar-2009-07-17T21:14:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T14:33:00.000Z"></span>Just as a point of clarification what I said was Aaron Klein and WND have no credibility, I did not say they are liars. What I am saying though is we cannot rely on what they say to be the truth. You will notice other RS publications taking the same approach by hedging their verbiage to indicate "according to Klein this happened", not this happened. <a href="/wiki/User:TharsHammar" title="User:TharsHammar">TharsHammar</a><sup><i> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/TharsHammar" title="Special:Contributions/TharsHammar">Bits</a></i></sup> and<sup><i><a href="/wiki/User_talk:TharsHammar#top" title="User talk:TharsHammar">Pieces</a></i></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-TharsHammar-2009-07-17T21:14:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T14:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:14, 17 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TharsHammar-2009-07-17T21:14:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T14:33:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TharsHammar-2009-07-17T21:14:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-17T14:33:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-79.178.103.240-2009-07-18T12:08:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-17T21:14:00.000Z"></span>Thars, that is called standard journalism. Regardless, Klein is now part of the 'Bruno'-terrorist story. Some mention on his Wiki page is warranted. Even if with the language of "according to Klein." Perhaps a few sentences. This is not just a story Klein reported. It's a story he is part of, even offering his opoinion of the threats to ABC News and others. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/79.178.103.240" title="Special:Contributions/79.178.103.240">79.178.103.240</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:79.178.103.240" title="User talk:79.178.103.240">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-79.178.103.240-2009-07-18T12:08:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-17T21:14:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:08, 18 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span data-mw-comment-end="c-79.178.103.240-2009-07-18T12:08:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-17T21:14:00.000Z"></span></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-79.178.103.240-2009-07-18T12:08:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-17T21:14:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-79.178.103.240-2009-07-18T12:13:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-17T21:14:00.000Z"></span>A note regarding Thars - an objective review of this user's posts on Klein finds him to be strangely biased almost to the point of launching personal attacks against Klein. Seems he is here with an anti-Klein agenda. A further review of Thars' user page might offer at least some explanation. Thars proudly proclaims:</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><ul><li>This user knows that FOX News is not Fair or Balanced.</li></ul></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><ul><li>This user is a liberal and doesn't understand why Americans have demonised the word.</li></ul></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><ul><li>This user is a Left-Wing Capitalist and doesn't any contradiction in it.</li></ul></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><ul><li>This user is sick and tired of Religion trying to hijack the government and wants stronger separation of church and state.</li></ul></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><ul><li>This user voted for hope and change, not country first.</li></ul></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Thars, while you should not be judged at all for your political beliefs, they are the polar opposite of the publications Klein writes for. As well, you proclaimed yourself a proud supporter of Obama, while Klein has done reporting agqainst Obama. Is it possible YOU are judging Klein because of your political beliefs? This should not be allowed on Wikipedia. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/79.178.103.240" title="Special:Contributions/79.178.103.240">79.178.103.240</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:79.178.103.240" title="User talk:79.178.103.240">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-79.178.103.240-2009-07-18T12:13:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-17T21:14:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:13, 18 July 2009 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-79.178.103.240-2009-07-18T12:13:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-17T21:14:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-79.178.103.240-2009-07-18T12:13:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-17T21:14:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-18T17:38:00.000Z-79.178.103.240-2009-07-18T12:13:00.000Z"></span>Let's stick to the point please? People of all political beliefs and persuasions are free to edit the encyclopedia. Klein's credibility level is in question to anyone who followed the Wikipedia incident, and the general tone and political biases of him and his paper are obvious from even a short examination. That means we have to be careul about uncorroborated statements, but if the statements themselves become news that's very interesting. He clearly has a lot of moxie, and gets into interesting situations as a journalist that become encyclopedic. <a href="/wiki/User:Wikidemon" title="User:Wikidemon">Wikidemon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikidemon" title="User talk:Wikidemon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Wikidemon-2009-07-18T17:38:00.000Z-79.178.103.240-2009-07-18T12:13:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:38, 18 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-18T17:38:00.000Z-79.178.103.240-2009-07-18T12:13:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-18T17:38:00.000Z-79.178.103.240-2009-07-18T12:13:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Back_to_the_subject_at_hand" data-mw-thread-id="h-Back_to_the_subject_at_hand-Terrorist_leader-2009-07-17T19:08:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Back_to_the_subject_at_hand-Terrorist_leader-2009-07-17T19:08:00.000Z"></span>Back to the subject at hand<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Back_to_the_subject_at_hand-Terrorist_leader-2009-07-17T19:08:00.000Z"></span></h3></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Athaenara-2009-07-17T19:08:00.000Z-Back_to_the_subject_at_hand"></span>While it's clear that <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aaron_Klein&diff=prev&oldid=302223071">eight</a> or <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aaron_Klein&diff=prev&oldid=302246515">six paragraphs</a> are excessive, the question is whether even one is appropriate here. It's not a general encyclopedia's function in a bio of a reporter to include every story by that reporter or every possible bit of media mention. That's for the reporter's CV/résumé. Whether or not Klein's <small>[résumé]</small> needs padding, this bio certainly doesn't. — <a href="/wiki/User:Athaenara" title="User:Athaenara">Athaenara</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Athaenara" title="User talk:Athaenara"> ✉ </a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Athaenara-2009-07-17T19:08:00.000Z-Back_to_the_subject_at_hand" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:08, 17 July 2009 (UTC)</a> <small> & 12:50, 18 July 2009 (UTC)</small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Athaenara-2009-07-17T19:08:00.000Z-Back_to_the_subject_at_hand"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Athaenara-2009-07-17T19:08:00.000Z-Back_to_the_subject_at_hand"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-18T16:08:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-17T19:08:00.000Z"></span>I think one or two paragraphs is appropriate. At a minimum, the story is definitely interesting/appealing. A major movie star does a hit movie, he's a comedian, a terrorist goes after him due to the movie, Klein breaks the story. That is very interesting. We have the reliable sources to prove it. We are not including every single story Klein does. This one is particularly unusual. Comedians don't get threatened by terrorists every day. We are trying to write a good wiki page. This story definitely belongs on this wiki page. The only one opposing it so far is someone dead set against Klein personally. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-18T16:08:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-17T19:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:08, 18 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-18T16:08:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-17T19:08:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-18T16:08:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-17T19:08:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Athaenara-2009-07-18T23:11:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-18T16:08:00.000Z"></span>So you want something like "according to ABC News, Klein broke the story that a terrorist threatened Cohen after <i>Bruno</i> was released"? BTW, don't leave me out, TharsHammar isn't the only one opposing over-inflation of the incident or its coverage. — <a href="/wiki/User:Athaenara" title="User:Athaenara">Athaenara</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Athaenara" title="User talk:Athaenara"> ✉ </a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Athaenara-2009-07-18T23:11:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-18T16:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:11, 18 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Athaenara-2009-07-18T23:11:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-18T16:08:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Athaenara-2009-07-18T23:11:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-18T16:08:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T01:20:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-18T23:11:00.000Z"></span>No. I don't want specific words. Frankly, I think you'll write it better. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T01:20:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-18T23:11:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:20, 19 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T01:20:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-18T23:11:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T01:20:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-18T23:11:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Athaenara-2009-07-19T05:10:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-18T16:08:00.000Z"></span>One way to do it: <dl><dd><i><a href="/wiki/ABC_News" class="mw-disambig" title="ABC News">ABC News</a></i> reported in July 2009 that Klein broke the story that a statement which could be interpreted as a threat against comedian <a href="/wiki/Sacha_Baron_Cohen" title="Sacha Baron Cohen">Sacha Baron Cohen</a> was released by the <a href="/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Martyrs%27_Brigades" title="Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades">Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades</a> because they were "furious for being in a film [<i><a href="/wiki/Br%C3%BCno_(film)" class="mw-redirect" title="Brüno (film)">Brüno</a></i>] which deals with homosexuality."<sup>[1]</sup></dd> <dd><small> 1. ^ Luchina Fisher (July 16, 2009). "<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/Movies/Story?id=8093067">'Bruno' Turns Sacha Baron Cohen Into Potential Terrorist Target</a>". <i><a href="/wiki/ABC_News" class="mw-disambig" title="ABC News">ABC News</a></i>.</small></dd></dl></dd> <dd>Comments from the rest of you? — <a href="/wiki/User:Athaenara" title="User:Athaenara">Athaenara</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Athaenara" title="User talk:Athaenara"> ✉ </a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Athaenara-2009-07-19T05:10:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-18T16:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:10, 19 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Athaenara-2009-07-19T05:10:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-18T16:08:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Athaenara-2009-07-19T05:10:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-18T16:08:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T05:40:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-19T05:10:00.000Z"></span>I suggest this: <dl><dd>Klein broke the story that the <a href="/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Martyrs%27_Brigades" title="Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades">Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades</a> released a statement that could be interpreted as a threat against comedian <a href="/wiki/Sacha_Baron_Cohen" title="Sacha Baron Cohen">Sacha Baron Cohen</a> because they were "furious for being in a film [<i><a href="/wiki/Br%C3%BCno_(film)" class="mw-redirect" title="Brüno (film)">Brüno</a></i>] which deals with homosexuality," as reported in July 2009 by <i><a href="/wiki/ABC_News" class="mw-disambig" title="ABC News">ABC News</a></i>.<sup>[1]</sup></dd> <dd><small> 1. ^ Luchina Fisher (July 16, 2009). "<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/Movies/Story?id=8093067">'Bruno' Turns Sacha Baron Cohen Into Potential Terrorist Target</a>". <i><a href="/wiki/ABC_News" class="mw-disambig" title="ABC News">ABC News</a></i>.</small></dd></dl></dd> <dd>Slight difference but uses active instead of passive language merely by rearranging phrases, and I changed a which to that. It also puts the Klein activity at the beginning of the sentence, instead of ABC News. The story is Klein, not ABC News. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T05:40:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-19T05:10:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:40, 19 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T05:40:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-19T05:10:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T05:40:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-19T05:10:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-79.178.103.240-2009-07-19T11:14:00.000Z-Back_to_the_subject_at_hand"></span>A second paragraph is warranted since there are 2 stories here - the terrorist threats as well asd the false depiction of a terrorist. Both are dealt with in that ABC News article. Second paragraph suggestion: Klein also interviewed Ayman Abu Eita, depicted as a "terrorist leader" in the hit movie "Bruno." Eita told Klein the film mislabeled him and that the movie's star, Sasha Baron Cohen, conducted the interview under false pretenses. Eita threatened legal action against Cohen and the film's producers. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/79.178.103.240" title="Special:Contributions/79.178.103.240">79.178.103.240</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:79.178.103.240" title="User talk:79.178.103.240">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-79.178.103.240-2009-07-19T11:14:00.000Z-Back_to_the_subject_at_hand" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:14, 19 July 2009 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-79.178.103.240-2009-07-19T11:14:00.000Z-Back_to_the_subject_at_hand"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-79.178.103.240-2009-07-19T11:14:00.000Z-Back_to_the_subject_at_hand"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TharsHammar-2009-07-19T11:19:00.000Z-79.178.103.240-2009-07-19T11:14:00.000Z"></span>Two paragraphs are not warranted. Watergate only has 4 paragraphs in Woodwards page <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Woodward#Watergate">[9]</a>. Both of those suggestions sound forced to make Klein part of the story - which we still don't know is true. Maybe the material should go in the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades article or in the Bruno article? <a href="/wiki/User:TharsHammar" title="User:TharsHammar">TharsHammar</a><sup><i> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/TharsHammar" title="Special:Contributions/TharsHammar">Bits</a></i></sup> and<sup><i><a href="/wiki/User_talk:TharsHammar#top" title="User talk:TharsHammar">Pieces</a></i></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-TharsHammar-2009-07-19T11:19:00.000Z-79.178.103.240-2009-07-19T11:14:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:19, 19 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TharsHammar-2009-07-19T11:19:00.000Z-79.178.103.240-2009-07-19T11:14:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TharsHammar-2009-07-19T11:19:00.000Z-79.178.103.240-2009-07-19T11:14:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T14:25:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-19T11:19:00.000Z"></span>I see his point, though. Perhaps we can keep the one paragraph, just give it an extra sentence or two. <dl><dd>Klein broke the story that the <a href="/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Martyrs%27_Brigades" title="Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades">Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades</a> released a statement that could be interpreted as a threat against comedian <a href="/wiki/Sacha_Baron_Cohen" title="Sacha Baron Cohen">Sacha Baron Cohen</a> because they were "furious for being in a film [<i><a href="/wiki/Br%C3%BCno_(film)" class="mw-redirect" title="Brüno (film)">Brüno</a></i>] which deals with homosexuality," as reported in July 2009 by <i><a href="/wiki/ABC_News" class="mw-disambig" title="ABC News">ABC News</a></i>.<sup>[1]</sup> This threat is based on Klein's interview with Ayman Abu Eita, depicted as a "terrorist leader" in "Brüno." Eita told Klein the film mislabeled him and that the movie's star, Baron Cohen, conducted the interview under false pretenses. Eita threatened legal action against Cohen and the film's producers.<sup>[1]</sup></dd> <dd><small> 1. ^ Luchina Fisher (July 16, 2009). "<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/Movies/Story?id=8093067">'Bruno' Turns Sacha Baron Cohen Into Potential Terrorist Target</a>". <i><a href="/wiki/ABC_News" class="mw-disambig" title="ABC News">ABC News</a></i>.</small></dd></dl></dd> <dd>Oops, forgot to sign the last post just above. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T14:25:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-19T11:19:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:25, 19 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T14:25:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-19T11:19:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T14:25:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-19T11:19:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T14:31:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-19T11:19:00.000Z"></span>Found a source from Forbes: <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.forbes.com/2009/07/17/bruno-legal-movie-markets-faces-ethics.html">http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/17/bruno-legal-movie-markets-faces-ethics.html</a> --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T14:31:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-19T11:19:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:31, 19 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T14:31:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-19T11:19:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T14:31:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-19T11:19:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T14:36:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-19T11:19:00.000Z"></span>Another source: <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20090716/wl_mcclatchy/3273638_1">http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20090716/wl_mcclatchy/3273638_1</a> --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T14:36:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-19T11:19:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:36, 19 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T14:36:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-19T11:19:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T14:36:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-19T11:19:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-79.178.103.240-2009-07-19T15:33:00.000Z-Back_to_the_subject_at_hand"></span>Just a sentence or 2 here and yet there is a whole section about the 'Wikipedia controversy' on Klein's page. That's what we call a double standard. Anything negative, no problem with length. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/79.178.103.240" title="Special:Contributions/79.178.103.240">79.178.103.240</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:79.178.103.240" title="User talk:79.178.103.240">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-79.178.103.240-2009-07-19T15:33:00.000Z-Back_to_the_subject_at_hand" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:33, 19 July 2009 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-79.178.103.240-2009-07-19T15:33:00.000Z-Back_to_the_subject_at_hand"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-79.178.103.240-2009-07-19T15:33:00.000Z-Back_to_the_subject_at_hand"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T15:49:00.000Z-79.178.103.240-2009-07-19T15:33:00.000Z"></span>That IP comment is not very helpful. Please see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:AGF" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:AGF">WP:AGF</a>. As was discussed before, Klein's gaming Wikipedia to write a story about is by far the most prominent coverage of Klein in the mainstream press. As his primary claim to notability, it gets more attention than things that have only passing news references. The Bruno / Aita threatened lawsuit thing has been getting some solid coverage, but very little if anything connects it to Klein other than Klein's own statements, which were found here in at least one other instance to be wildly misleading. <a href="/wiki/User:Wikidemon" title="User:Wikidemon">Wikidemon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikidemon" title="User talk:Wikidemon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T15:49:00.000Z-79.178.103.240-2009-07-19T15:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:49, 19 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T15:49:00.000Z-79.178.103.240-2009-07-19T15:33:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T15:49:00.000Z-79.178.103.240-2009-07-19T15:33:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T16:01:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T15:49:00.000Z"></span>I'll have to agree with that IP comment, not to the point as it was. That Wikipedia controversy thing here is huge, and yet adding legitimate material is like pulling teeth. The exacting standards used to report anything where Klein appears positively is clearly contrasted with the nearly anything goes writing that makes Klein look silly.</dd> <dd>I'm here trying to make a decent page more decent, and the person (people) opposing any positive view of Klein are the ones begrudgingly adding a few sentences on real encyclopedic material.</dd> <dd>I am very sorry people have personal grudges against Klein or the political views he promotes, but the pussyfooting around those people on this page is resulting in a totally distorted view of reality. If you people oppose him so much, oppose him elsewhere, not on Wikipedia.</dd> <dd>That Wiki Controversy section is huge. I'm going to cut it back, just like people want to cut back on legitimate information about Klein. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T16:01:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T15:49:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:01, 19 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T16:01:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T15:49:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T16:01:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T15:49:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aaron_Klein&diff=302965831&oldid=302246771"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T16:05:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T15:49:00.000Z"></span>Done</a>. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T16:05:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T15:49:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:05, 19 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T16:05:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T15:49:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T16:05:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T15:49:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T16:16:00.000Z-Back_to_the_subject_at_hand"></span>(ec)It's not helpful to accuse the Wikipedia editors here of editing out of political bias or playing wikigames. Talk of double standards, hypocrisy, editing out of agenda, pretty much closes the door on productive discussion on an article talk page of the matter at hand. In Klein's case, as I recall Klein or someone connected with him sockpuppeted for a long time here on this article to add what you might see as positive material. It was self-promoting stuff where Klein would insert himself into some controversy involving other people, by claiming he had some kind of scoop, special angle or interview, media stunt, etc. He would write about it in World Net Daily, then cite himself here in the article and get into edit wars to keep it in. And then you had the Wikipedia hoaxing involving his Jerusalem21 account, which he deceptively claimed to be the victim of the Wikipedia censor cabal, leading to a melt-down on Barack Obama's article, dozens of blocked and banned editors, an arbcom case, some inaccurate mainstream news stories, etc. The discomfort with journalists who manufacture fake Wikipedia controversies to promote themselves is not a political issue, it's a matter of upholding the integrity of the project. He could be pro-Israel, anti-Israel, or a vegetable rights activist for all most people care. The point is, he and his article invoke some serious concerns about project maintenance. The whole thing would not be worth covering under <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NAVEL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NAVEL">WP:NAVEL</a>, and he would just be another banned editor, except that (at his initiation) it got covered by CNN, Fox News, etc. The promotional stuff got removed for good but a short-ish neutral account of the Wikipedia hoax remains, which is justified by the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:V" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:V">WP:V</a> and weight policy. Regarding the matter at hand, it seems like good material. It's interesting and encyclopedic IMO. I've given all the reasons why it should remain. The missing piece is the lack of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">reliable sources</a> showing that Klein had anything to do with this incident. The middle-eastern shopkeeper portrayed as a terrorist leader is unquestionably threatening to sue Bruno, and that news is being reported. But did Klein really have an investigative journalist scoop on this and is he a player in the incident, or is he just self-promoting again? <a href="/wiki/User:Wikidemon" title="User:Wikidemon">Wikidemon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikidemon" title="User talk:Wikidemon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T16:16:00.000Z-Back_to_the_subject_at_hand" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:16, 19 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T16:16:00.000Z-Back_to_the_subject_at_hand"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T16:16:00.000Z-Back_to_the_subject_at_hand"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T16:23:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T16:16:00.000Z"></span>Incidentally, I've restored the material about the Wikipedia incident, which already represents a consensus and a considerable scaling back in favor of Klein. It's crucial to the incident that Klein manufactured the controversy, that it ended up in the mainstream press, and that Klein (per his unproven claims, deliberately provoking Wikipedia via a proxy) was found to have been the editor who he himself was trying to portray as the victim of censors. It completely misrepresents the incident to claim that it was a simple story of Klein accusing Wikiedia of bias, and Wikipedia denying it. The event was a media stunt, not a criticism of Wikipedia. Not mentioned in the current version are that the reliable sources more or less accused him of journalistic fraud, and that he was sockpuppeting and edit warring fringe conspiracy theories here. If there is any fluff to cut back, it is the two statements by Wikipedia spokespeople which, though reliably sourced (other sources picked them up), true (the spokespeople actually said that), and apt (what they say is fair), are self-serving and not really part of the story. <a href="/wiki/User:Wikidemon" title="User:Wikidemon">Wikidemon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikidemon" title="User talk:Wikidemon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T16:23:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T16:16:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:23, 19 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T16:23:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T16:16:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T16:23:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T16:16:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T16:50:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T16:23:00.000Z"></span>"It's crucial to the incident that Klein manufactured the controversy...."</dd> <dd>No he didn't. That page was being cleaned on a regular basis at the time -- don't know about now. Even I added totally neutral material, but that too was cleaned off. I felt victimized by people using Wikipedia to promote a political agenda right before an election. I happened to have seen Klein's article on the topic and knew from my own experience it was absolutely true. Indeed that's how I came to edit on this Klein page. That's how Klein finally registered on my radar.</dd> <dd>If there was a consensus previously reached, it was by people having a grudge against Klein and his politics or simply in favor of those people they think he opposed. Besides, consensus can be redone if circumstances warrant.</dd> <dd>Circumstances warrant. The Wiki Controversy is the biggest section of this Wiki article. That is totally and absolutely out of balance with the reality of Klein's work as a reporter. I am very sorry people personally oppose Klein and the interests he reports but Wikipedia is not here to support people who oppose the people they are writing about.</dd> <dd>When I first started here on Wikipedia I had newbie muscles. I edited pages about people/groups with which I had disagreements in real life. I was told again and again to go edit elsewhere for reasons related to wiki policy. Well the same thing should apply here. We've got person after person editing here who can't stand Klein. They need to go edit elsewhere and allow objective editors to have a shot at improving this article.</dd> <dd>For example, the edit I just made that was reverted made a significant improvement in the article. And it removed a very specific issue that people who hate him blew up into a big deal that it's not in reality. The suggestion was made that I should work with the community, the very community that can't stand Klein. Yet I am working with the community. After my initial material on the Bruno film was reverted, I have been very laid back and allow people to contribute to a consensus. The result? A few sentences are grudgingly allowed, while it is supposed to be pointed out that Klein made the claims but we don't really know if that's the truth. I have never, ever, seen any other reporter treated with such total disdain and disregard.</dd> <dd>I don't know Klein from a hole in the hole, barring what I said above. So that enables me to sit back and watch in amazement as people who totally hate the guy, even calling him a liar, are here editing his wiki page. Really, this is very shocking to see.</dd> <dd>Remove any negative info about him? It gets reverted/added back. Add any positive info about him? It gets reverted/removed.</dd> <dd>I really am shocked that I see this again and again. Literally, I am the only editor here trying to make this page encyclopedic for Wikipedia. Wikipedia, not TharsHammaropedia. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T16:50:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T16:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:50, 19 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T16:50:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T16:23:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T16:50:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T16:23:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T17:08:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T16:50:00.000Z"></span>That Klein manufactured the Jerusalem21 controversy is beyond serious dispute. It became an issue on the meta pages because the hoax involved disrupting Wikipedia in order to write about it, and the extent of the disruption caused by his accusations was very significant. It became an issue on his article page because he got the mainstream coverage he sought, and that's more of a claim to notability than anything else he's ever done. His other work as a journalist for an out of the way publication, like many journalists working for mainstream and special interest papers alike, just doesn't rise above the notability standards. Were it not for the earlier COI editing, and then the Wikipedia incident, he would not have an article here at all. His journalistic ethics is questioned (though that is not reported in the main space) because he new the claims he was making were false, and what he did falls below any mainstream standard of journalistic integrity - that is obvious from the edit history, and was reported as such by mainstream media. I'm sorry, but if you are going to accuse the editors here of editing out of grudges and other improper motives, this talk page is not the place for it. Complaining that the editors here are acting in bad faith is not going to get them to agree to something they disagreed with before. I support the new material you propose regarding Bruno and the person he called a terrorist leader, and will go to bat for it if you can find reliable sources that connect Klein to the incident. Meanwhile, based on the content, history, and nature of Klein as a source, I do not find Klein himself to be a reliable source as to his own actions as a journalist. <a href="/wiki/User:Wikidemon" title="User:Wikidemon">Wikidemon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikidemon" title="User talk:Wikidemon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T17:08:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T16:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:08, 19 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T17:08:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T16:50:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T17:08:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T16:50:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T17:24:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T17:08:00.000Z"></span>Thank you, but you have made my point: <dl><dd>"His other work as a journalist for an out of the way publication, like many journalists working for mainstream and special interest papers alike, just doesn't rise above the notability standards. Were it not for the earlier COI editing, and then the Wikipedia incident, he would not have an article here at all. His journalistic ethics is questioned (though that is not reported in the main space) because he new the claims he was making were false, and what he did falls below any mainstream standard of journalistic integrity - that is obvious from the edit history, and was reported as such by mainstream media."</dd></dl></dd> <dd>So a person saying Klein is working for "an out of the way publication" that "just doesn't rise above the notability standards," and "would not have an article here at all" is editing this article. "His journalistic ethics is questioned", "claims he was making were false," "what he did falls below any mainstream standard of journalistic integrity," and the person making these statements is editing this page.</dd> <dd>I cannot image it being acceptable for me to edit any page where I made such statements. I cannot imagine, if I made such statements, my credibility as an editor on that particular page not being challenged. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T17:24:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T17:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:24, 19 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T17:24:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T17:08:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T17:24:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T17:08:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T17:50:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T17:24:00.000Z"></span>If I said otherwise, I would be wrong. Please, making personal attacks, accusations of bad faith, etc., runs against <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:TALK" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:TALK">WP:TALK</a> or some other behavioral guideline. And by doing so you're antagonizing the one editor who is sticking up for your proposed material. If you wish to dispute my eligibility to work here as an editor, please take that to an appropriate forum, not here. I'm done discussing that. As I said, I'll support your material if you can source it properly.<a href="/wiki/User:Wikidemon" title="User:Wikidemon">Wikidemon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikidemon" title="User talk:Wikidemon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T17:50:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T17:24:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:50, 19 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T17:50:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T17:24:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T17:50:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T17:24:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T20:58:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T17:50:00.000Z"></span>No, Wikidemon, I like you. You are an excellent editor as well. You often help in ways others do not, like me, I just don't know enough. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T20:58:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T17:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:58, 19 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T20:58:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T17:50:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T20:58:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-07-19T17:50:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Athaenara-2009-07-20T05:48:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T16:50:00.000Z"></span>Observation:</b> LegAndEvCom's claim (<a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aaron_Klein&diff=prev&oldid=302972948">diff</a>) of being "the only editor here trying to make this page encyclopedic for Wikipedia" is patently false, as the article's history since its inception and <a href="/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein/Archive_1" title="Talk:Aaron Klein/Archive 1">talk archive 1</a> plainly demonstrate. — <a href="/wiki/User:Athaenara" title="User:Athaenara">Athaenara</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Athaenara" title="User talk:Athaenara"> ✉ </a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Athaenara-2009-07-20T05:48:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T16:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:48, 20 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Athaenara-2009-07-20T05:48:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T16:50:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Athaenara-2009-07-20T05:48:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-19T16:50:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Ari_Berman_quote" data-mw-thread-id="h-Ari_Berman_quote-2009-07-20T02:32:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Ari_Berman_quote-2009-07-20T02:32:00.000Z"></span>Ari Berman quote<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Ari_Berman_quote-2009-07-20T02:32:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-20T02:32:00.000Z-Ari_Berman_quote"></span>I am removing the Ari Berman quote. Here it is: </p> <dl><dd>Klein's methods of "getting terrorists to say nice things about Democrats" were criticized by <a href="/wiki/Ari_Berman" title="Ari Berman">Ari Berman</a> in <i><a href="/wiki/The_Nation" title="The Nation">The Nation</a></i> as "questionable sourcing" and part of a "smear campaign."<sup id="cite_ref-berman_1-0" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-berman-1"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>1<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup></dd></dl> <p>I am removing this as it is a smear job and not a reliable source. </p><p>Let's look at the quote in context <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/14/opinion/main3938453.shtml">http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/14/opinion/main3938453.shtml</a> emphasis mine to highlight the quotes inserted in the Wikipedia article about Aaron Klein: </p> <dl><dd>Despite Klein's <i><b>questionable sourcing</b></i> and scandalous accusations, mainstream reporters now call the Obama campaign to ask about Klein's articles. He also reports for John Batchelor, a right-wing talk-radio host for KFI-AM in Los Angeles who has written a series of outlandish columns about Obama for the conservative magazine Human Events and repeatedly pushed the Obama smears on his radio show. According to an e-mail of Batchelor's obtained by The Nation, Batchelor says that information about Obama and Khalidi came via "oppo research."</dd></dl> <dl><dd>Even if the false claims about Obama originally emanated from the neoconservative right, the Clinton campaign has eagerly pushed them. Clinton operative Sidney Blumenthal has e-mailed damaging stories about Obama to reporters, including a recent article by Batchelor. Clinton fundraiser Annie Totah circulated a column by Ed Lasky before Super Tuesday, with the inscription "Please vote wisely in the Primaries." Clinton adviser Ann Lewis falsely referred to Zbigniew Brzezinski, a critic of AIPAC, as a chief adviser to Obama on a conference call with Jewish reporters. "I can tell you for a fact people from the Clinton campaign are calling reporters and asking them to pay attention to things involving Obama and Israel," says Shmuel Rosner, Washington correspondent for the Israeli daily Ha'aretz. The volume of e-mails about Obama in a given state tends to track the election calendar - hardly a coincidence.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>Large American Jewish organizations, like AIPAC and the Orthodox Union, have repeatedly defended Obama. Yet they've had little sway over reactionary elements in both the United States and Israel - including Jewish hate groups - who are eager to keep the <i><b>smear campaign</b></i> alive. The website Jews Against Obama, for instance, is run by the Jewish Task Force, which funnels money to the radical settler movement in Israel. (Curiously, John McCain's alliance with Pastor John Hagee of Christians United for Israel, a leading proponent of "end times" theology, and his recent endorsement by former Secretary of State James Baker have received far less scrutiny from pro-Israel pundits. It was Baker, after all, who reportedly told George H.W. Bush, "Fuck the Jews. They didn't vote for us anyway.")</dd></dl> <p>So this supposedly reliable source, Ari Berman, not only smears Aaron Klein, but goes on to smear <a href="/wiki/John_Batchelor" title="John Batchelor">John Batchelor</a>, claiming he "smears" Obama. After criticizing the "neoconservative right" for "false claims," Ari Berman then goes on to attack against the Hillary Clinton campaign as it was constituted at that time!!!! Next comes "Large American Jewish organizations," John McCain, and "Fuck the Jews former Secretary of State James Baker." </p><p>No way can a source be considered reliable about Aaron Klein when he attacks Aaron Klein, John Batchelor, the neoconservative right, the Hillary campaign, John McCain, Jewish organizations, etc. Gee, is there anybody he left out? </p><p>How in the world did such a biased source get left in this article for so long??? </p><p>In respect of fellow editor Wikidemon, I have provided details on the reason for the removal. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-20T02:32:00.000Z-Ari_Berman_quote" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:32, 20 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-20T02:32:00.000Z-Ari_Berman_quote"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-20T02:32:00.000Z-Ari_Berman_quote"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-20T05:26:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-20T02:32:00.000Z"></span>Thanks. With that justification, the removal seems warranted. I could explain my thoughts further if anyone else disagrees, but in general I don't like citing opinion pieces about living people even if merely for the fact that one particular writer has that opinion. <a href="/wiki/User:Wikidemon" title="User:Wikidemon">Wikidemon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikidemon" title="User talk:Wikidemon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Wikidemon-2009-07-20T05:26:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-20T02:32:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:26, 20 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-20T05:26:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-20T02:32:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-20T05:26:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-20T02:32:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Back_to_Bruno" data-mw-thread-id="h-Back_to_Bruno-2009-07-28T11:15:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Back_to_Bruno-2009-07-28T11:15:00.000Z"></span>Back to Bruno<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Back_to_Bruno-2009-07-28T11:15:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T11:15:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span>Klein is now part of the story of terrorist threats against Bruno. Aside from the above mentioned ABC News article, he is also quoted as part of the threats story by other mainstream media, including the London Times and Guardian. See: <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/film/article6729022.ece">[10]</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2009/jul/27/bruno-sacha-baron-cohen">[11]</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/51334,news,terror-group-threaten-bruno-star-sacha-baron-cohen-fatah-martyrs-ayman-abu-aita">[12]</a> Isn't it time to add this to his Wikipedia entry? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/79.178.121.238" title="Special:Contributions/79.178.121.238">79.178.121.238</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:79.178.121.238" title="User talk:79.178.121.238">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T11:15:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:15, 28 July 2009 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T11:15:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T11:15:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-KillerChihuahua-2009-07-28T11:19:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T11:15:00.000Z"></span>He's a journalist. He made a comment about a news item (terrorist threats against an actor.) He's not <i>involved</i> in the story; he <i>commented</i> on the story. No, this does not belong here - but his comments may belong in the <a href="/wiki/Br%C3%BCno" title="Brüno">Brüno</a> article. <a href="/wiki/User:KillerChihuahua" title="User:KillerChihuahua">KillerChihuahua</a><small><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:KillerChihuahua" title="User talk:KillerChihuahua">?!?</a></sup><a href="/wiki/User:Heimstern/Ignoring_incivility" title="User:Heimstern/Ignoring incivility">Advice</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-KillerChihuahua-2009-07-28T11:19:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T11:15:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:19, 28 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-KillerChihuahua-2009-07-28T11:19:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T11:15:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-KillerChihuahua-2009-07-28T11:19:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T11:15:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T13:32:00.000Z-KillerChihuahua-2009-07-28T11:19:00.000Z"></span>Wrong, he did not simply make comment about a news item as a journalist. He is the news item -- the terrorist threats were issued through him, which is notable and covered thoroughly in the media. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/79.178.121.238" title="Special:Contributions/79.178.121.238">79.178.121.238</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:79.178.121.238" title="User talk:79.178.121.238">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T13:32:00.000Z-KillerChihuahua-2009-07-28T11:19:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:32, 28 July 2009 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T13:32:00.000Z-KillerChihuahua-2009-07-28T11:19:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T13:32:00.000Z-KillerChihuahua-2009-07-28T11:19:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Athaenara-2009-07-28T13:40:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T13:32:00.000Z"></span>Why not take it to <a href="/wiki/Wikinews" title="Wikinews">Wikinews</a>? — <a href="/wiki/User:Athaenara" title="User:Athaenara">Athaenara</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Athaenara" title="User talk:Athaenara"> ✉ </a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Athaenara-2009-07-28T13:40:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T13:32:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:40, 28 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Athaenara-2009-07-28T13:40:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T13:32:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Athaenara-2009-07-28T13:40:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T13:32:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Athaenara-2009-07-28T13:55:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T11:15:00.000Z"></span>Comment:</b> the three articles linked above, as well as other articles linked farther above in previous discussions, are pretty much identical and seem to have come from the same press release. — <a href="/wiki/User:Athaenara" title="User:Athaenara">Athaenara</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Athaenara" title="User talk:Athaenara"> ✉ </a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Athaenara-2009-07-28T13:55:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T11:15:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:55, 28 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Athaenara-2009-07-28T13:55:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T11:15:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Athaenara-2009-07-28T13:55:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T11:15:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T17:04:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-28T13:55:00.000Z"></span>Major news outlets like ABC News, London Times, Guardian, do not reprint press releases. Although they may have taken the story from ABC News. Regardless this matter is now mainstream. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/79.178.121.238" title="Special:Contributions/79.178.121.238">79.178.121.238</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:79.178.121.238" title="User talk:79.178.121.238">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T17:04:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-28T13:55:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:04, 28 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span data-mw-comment-end="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T17:04:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-28T13:55:00.000Z"></span></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T17:04:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-28T13:55:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Athaenara-2009-07-28T18:08:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T17:04:00.000Z"></span>So, as I was saying ... Wikinews? — <a href="/wiki/User:Athaenara" title="User:Athaenara">Athaenara</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Athaenara" title="User talk:Athaenara"> ✉ </a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Athaenara-2009-07-28T18:08:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T17:04:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:08, 28 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Athaenara-2009-07-28T18:08:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T17:04:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Athaenara-2009-07-28T18:08:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-28T17:04:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AniMate-2009-07-28T21:12:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-28T18:08:00.000Z"></span>WikiNews might work, but this hardly seems major enough for Klein's biography, and Klein isn't the news item. <a href="/wiki/User:AniMate" title="User:AniMate"><font face="Segoe Print" color="black">AniMate</font></a><small><sup><b><a href="/wiki/User_talk:AniMate" title="User talk:AniMate"><font face="Segoe Print" color="black">draw</font></a></b></sup></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-AniMate-2009-07-28T21:12:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-28T18:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:12, 28 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AniMate-2009-07-28T21:12:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-28T18:08:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AniMate-2009-07-28T21:12:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-07-28T18:08:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TharsHammar-2009-07-28T22:10:00.000Z-AniMate-2009-07-28T21:12:00.000Z"></span>Agreed, unless news organizations start reporting that Klein is collaborating with terrorists and acting as their PR, or until he gets arrested for aiding terrorists, then he is just a columnist covering a story. Maybe a 1 line bit along the lines of "according to World Net Daily columinist Aaron Klein ..." in wikinews or in the bruno / cohen article will do. <a href="/wiki/User:TharsHammar" title="User:TharsHammar">TharsHammar</a><sup><i> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/TharsHammar" title="Special:Contributions/TharsHammar">Bits</a></i></sup> and<sup><i><a href="/wiki/User_talk:TharsHammar#top" title="User talk:TharsHammar">Pieces</a></i></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-TharsHammar-2009-07-28T22:10:00.000Z-AniMate-2009-07-28T21:12:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:10, 28 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TharsHammar-2009-07-28T22:10:00.000Z-AniMate-2009-07-28T21:12:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TharsHammar-2009-07-28T22:10:00.000Z-AniMate-2009-07-28T21:12:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-29T00:08:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-28T22:10:00.000Z"></span>I recently found some MSM tying Klein to the story. I'm just too busy to add them in at the moment. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-29T00:08:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-28T22:10:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:08, 29 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-29T00:08:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-28T22:10:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-07-29T00:08:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-28T22:10:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-29T21:12:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span>Not large enough, but anything negative goes in immediately? The terrorist threats are massive. Do a news search under Klein's name. It's an international news story associated with Klein. It is biographical to note it was through him these well-known threats were released. Also Klein is quoted in the stories offering his perspective. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/79.178.121.238" title="Special:Contributions/79.178.121.238">79.178.121.238</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:79.178.121.238" title="User talk:79.178.121.238">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-29T21:12:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:12, 29 July 2009 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-29T21:12:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-29T21:12:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TharsHammar-2009-07-29T21:44:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-29T21:12:00.000Z"></span>This is a biography of Klein, not a CV. You know him, is his biography that devoid of anything meaningful that we should cover stories that Klein has commented on? <a href="/wiki/User:TharsHammar" title="User:TharsHammar">TharsHammar</a><sup><i> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/TharsHammar" title="Special:Contributions/TharsHammar">Bits</a></i></sup> and<sup><i><a href="/wiki/User_talk:TharsHammar#top" title="User talk:TharsHammar">Pieces</a></i></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-TharsHammar-2009-07-29T21:44:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-29T21:12:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:44, 29 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TharsHammar-2009-07-29T21:44:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-29T21:12:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TharsHammar-2009-07-29T21:44:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-29T21:12:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-29T21:56:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-29T21:44:00.000Z"></span>Weight is an interesting question here. In most cases we could dismiss an issue that, although reliably sourced and relevant to a person, is so trivial in connection with his entire life that it is not worth mentioning. If the New York Times profiled Klein and said "Monday morning he took his trusty old laptop computer to an Internet cafe to work on an upcoming publication deadline", we would not see fit to report that because such background color, though connected to his career, is unencyclopedic. But we don't have a lot of material on Klein - not too much in mainstream reliable sources about his background, habits, events of his life. He is certainly notable, but mainly for a series of several events, stories, and controversies. There are only a few dots to connect. If his coverage of the Bruno incident rises past the noise, and is one of those very few incidents that gets mainstream attention, I think it makes sense to mention it. I haven't kept up so I'm not sure if that's the case. I do agree that if all we have is Klein and his publisher reporting on himself, we don't have any external confirmation that the event happened (for WP:V / WP:RS) or that it is significant enough to include (for weight purposes). As always, just my opinion... <a href="/wiki/User:Wikidemon" title="User:Wikidemon">Wikidemon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikidemon" title="User talk:Wikidemon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Wikidemon-2009-07-29T21:56:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-29T21:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:56, 29 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-29T21:56:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-29T21:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-29T21:56:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-07-29T21:44:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T13:56:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span>Confirmation that the event happened? It's been reported in over 200 English newspapers, including the London Times, Guardian, etc. With regard to Klein, the ABC News article, here <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/Movies/story?id=8093067&page=1">[13]</a> includes additional information about Klein, aside from quoting him: </p><p>Klein said Al Aqsa, a militant group classified by the U.S. State Department as a terrorist organization loyal to the Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah Party, claims to have disbanded over the last two years but maintains a Web site, continues to take responsibility for terrorist attacks and has released several official statements including threats against Israel. </p><p>According to Klein, who is based in Jerusalem and has covered terrorists since 2005 and wrote the book, "Schmoozing with Terrorists," Al Aqsa is furious for being included in a film which deals with homosexuality. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/79.178.121.238" title="Special:Contributions/79.178.121.238">79.178.121.238</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:79.178.121.238" title="User talk:79.178.121.238">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T13:56:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:56, 30 July 2009 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T13:56:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T13:56:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T14:01:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span>Also, it's amazing that the argument for including the lengthy, negative section about Wikipedia controversy in Klein's page (FYI, the section is inaccurate, biased) was that it was notable since it was widely covered. The Wikipedia controversy was mentioned in about 5 mainstream publications. The Bruno story, with Klein's name, is now in over 200 newspapers. And we are debating a possible sentence mention. It is time to bring in unbiased editors to this page. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/79.178.121.238" title="Special:Contributions/79.178.121.238">79.178.121.238</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:79.178.121.238" title="User talk:79.178.121.238">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T14:01:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:01, 30 July 2009 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T14:01:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T14:01:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T14:11:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span>As well, this is not about "resume building," it is about adding in extremely notable, biographical events. Browse through the Wiki entries of notable reporters such as David Frost or Barbara Walters and see that certain very notable, key interviews conducted or stories first reported are detailed there. The 'Bruno' story is unquestionably notable and it is part of Klein's persona described on Wikipedia of conducting interviews with terrorists. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/79.178.121.238" title="Special:Contributions/79.178.121.238">79.178.121.238</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:79.178.121.238" title="User talk:79.178.121.238">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T14:11:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:11, 30 July 2009 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T14:11:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T14:11:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-30T14:23:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T14:11:00.000Z"></span>As I said, if reliable sources do corroborate Klein's claims, the incident belongs here, and the more weighty the sourcing the more of it should be here. The ABC piece for the most part does not say it actually happened, it says Klein said it happened. Klein saying it happened, by itself, does not make it worth repeating here. However, the ABC piece does seem to endorse Klein's telling of the event by saying (without qualification that it was repeating Klein's claims) that Al Aqsa "released" a statement to World Net Daily, and that Klein "broke the story". If there are are 200 (distinct, reliable) news sources that endorse this as true that would make it all the more appropriate here. The Times and Guardian links, like ABC, do also endorse that Klein received the press release from Al Aqsa. Most of the initial stories simply say that Klein claims it. Please don't accuse editors of operating out of bias - that's an <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:AGF" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:AGF">accusation of bad faith</a>. The Wikipedia section is already pared down to the bare minimum necessary to explain what happened, and is not of undue weight given that it is to date Klein's best claim to notability. The main bias to the article is that we're being easy on Klein and deferring to the reliable sources rather than what's in Wikipedia's edit history. The plain truth of what happened is a lot more damning for Klein: he was sockpuppeting in this article to promote himself and on the Obama article to stir up trouble by edit warring fringe anti-Obama conspiracy theories, and when caught he wrote an article about it as if it had happened to an innocent victim not himself who was making reasonable edits. Generating fake disputes in order to cover them as if they were real events is not exactly the height of journalism. <a href="/wiki/User:Wikidemon" title="User:Wikidemon">Wikidemon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikidemon" title="User talk:Wikidemon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Wikidemon-2009-07-30T14:23:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T14:11:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:23, 30 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-30T14:23:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T14:11:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-30T14:23:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T14:11:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T18:48:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span>The Wikipedia section on Klein's page makes it seem like his entire original article about Obama’s Wiki entry being scrubbed was based solely on Klein's researcher’s one edit that was removed, when in fact, Klein documented the same things happened to thousands of similar edits and the reseacher's was one test edit. The Wiki section falsely implies Klein generated a story that Obama's page was being scrubbed of elligibility issues as well as mention of Bill Ayers; but actually Obama's page was being scrubbed by elligibility issues and mention of Bill Ayers. Klein's reseacher did not create the controversy, it was already there. The researcher merely tested it. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/79.178.121.238" title="Special:Contributions/79.178.121.238">79.178.121.238</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:79.178.121.238" title="User talk:79.178.121.238">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T18:48:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:48, 30 July 2009 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T18:48:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T18:48:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T19:31:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span>Also I dont understand your bar of acceptance into Klein's Wikipedia page. You are saying it can only be there if the event is proven to have happened? That is beyond the bar called for by any other encyclopedic entry in the history of encyclopedias. The event was found so credible it was reported by hundreds of newspapers across the U.S. and Europe. Klein's Wiki entry doesn't need to state as fact that threats were issued, but that Klein reported the threats were issued through him, as noted thoroughly by the mainstream media. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/79.178.121.238" title="Special:Contributions/79.178.121.238">79.178.121.238</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:79.178.121.238" title="User talk:79.178.121.238">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T19:31:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:31, 30 July 2009 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T19:31:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T19:31:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-30T19:43:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T19:31:00.000Z"></span>If these articles all say "Klein reported he received the threat" then that's what we report. If they all say "Klein received the threat" then we can say that. I can't vouch for "hundreds" but the several links already on this page should be enough to establish that it's a viable issue to include. I've favored adding it from the beginning. I do not wish to re-argue the whole World Net Daily Wikipedia drama, only pointing out that Klein is not considered a reliable source as to events that supposedly happened to him and his paper - with good reason in this case. But he's in the same boat here as most non-mainstream writers. <a href="/wiki/User:Wikidemon" title="User:Wikidemon">Wikidemon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikidemon" title="User talk:Wikidemon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Wikidemon-2009-07-30T19:43:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T19:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:43, 30 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-30T19:43:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T19:31:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidemon-2009-07-30T19:43:00.000Z-79.178.121.238-2009-07-30T19:31:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-79.177.59.7-2009-08-12T13:56:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span>What about this? </p><p>A "terrorist leader" interviewed in the hit movie "Bruno" reportedly told Klein in an interview the film mislabeled him and that the movie's star, Sasha Baron Cohen, conducted the interview under false pretenses. </p><p>Klein quoted Ayman Abu Aita, who is labeled in the movie as a "terrorist group leader," as stating he was shocked when he learned the film depicts a homosexual character and contains scenes including full frontal male nudity and graphic sex. Eita threatened legal action against Baron Cohen and the movie's producers. </p><p>The Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades terrorist group reportedly released a statement through Klein that could be interpreted as a threat against comedian Sacha Baron Cohen, explaining they were upset their namesake was featured in his film, as reported in July 2009 by ABC News. "We reserve the right to respond in the way we find suitable against this man,” the statement said, according to Klein. “The movie was part of a conspiracy against the al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades." </p><p>Klein was further quoted by the London Times stating, "These are terrorists. They are against feminism, gay rights and abortion. Once I asked them what would they do if they found out one of their members was a homosexual. They said they would cut off his head.” <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/79.177.59.7" title="Special:Contributions/79.177.59.7">79.177.59.7</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:79.177.59.7&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:79.177.59.7 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-79.177.59.7-2009-08-12T13:56:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:56, 12 August 2009 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-79.177.59.7-2009-08-12T13:56:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-79.177.59.7-2009-08-12T13:56:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-12T17:55:00.000Z-79.177.59.7-2009-08-12T13:56:00.000Z"></span>We'll need reliable sources to back that up. Like the London Times article. What's the URL? Forgive me if it already appears in the article or in talk. I have been very busy lately and have not paid so much attention to the latest activity on this page. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-12T17:55:00.000Z-79.177.59.7-2009-08-12T13:56:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:55, 12 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-12T17:55:00.000Z-79.177.59.7-2009-08-12T13:56:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-12T17:55:00.000Z-79.177.59.7-2009-08-12T13:56:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-79.182.104.187-2009-08-14T14:07:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span>ABC News <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/Movies/Story?id=8093067&page=1">[14]</a> </p><p>London Times <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/film/article6729022.ece">[15]</a> </p><p>Daily Mail <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1203609/Palestinian-branded-terrorist-Sacha-Baron-Cohens-Bruno-Christian-activist-charity.html">[16]</a> <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/79.182.104.187" title="Special:Contributions/79.182.104.187">79.182.104.187</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:79.182.104.187&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:79.182.104.187 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-79.182.104.187-2009-08-14T14:07:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:07, 14 August 2009 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-79.182.104.187-2009-08-14T14:07:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-79.182.104.187-2009-08-14T14:07:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-15T01:04:00.000Z-79.182.104.187-2009-08-14T14:07:00.000Z"></span>Well, they don't get much more major than that. If I wasn't falling asleep, I look more closely. Later then. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-15T01:04:00.000Z-79.182.104.187-2009-08-14T14:07:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:04, 15 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-15T01:04:00.000Z-79.182.104.187-2009-08-14T14:07:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-15T01:04:00.000Z-79.182.104.187-2009-08-14T14:07:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-23T05:18:00.000Z-79.182.104.187-2009-08-14T14:07:00.000Z"></span>Okay, I added the stuff, edited by me, and with the references inserted. I believe this should fairly meet the existing expectations of all editors. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-23T05:18:00.000Z-79.182.104.187-2009-08-14T14:07:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:18, 23 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-23T05:18:00.000Z-79.182.104.187-2009-08-14T14:07:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-23T05:18:00.000Z-79.182.104.187-2009-08-14T14:07:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Athaenara-2009-08-23T05:53:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-23T05:18:00.000Z"></span>No, not <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aaron_Klein&diff=prev&oldid=309553839">four paragraphs</a> where one (if any) would do.</dd> <dd>There is no consensus here that it belongs in this article rather than in the <i>Brüno</i> article (has it been added there?) and certainly not at such length. — <a href="/wiki/User:Athaenara" title="User:Athaenara">Athaenara</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Athaenara" title="User talk:Athaenara"> ✉ </a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Athaenara-2009-08-23T05:53:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-23T05:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:53, 23 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Athaenara-2009-08-23T05:53:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-23T05:18:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Athaenara-2009-08-23T05:53:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-23T05:18:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-23T07:02:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-08-23T05:53:00.000Z"></span>Okay, then suggest the appropriate verbiage. And for anyone who does, look at the diffs to get the sources already put in ref format. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-23T07:02:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-08-23T05:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:02, 23 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-23T07:02:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-08-23T05:53:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-23T07:02:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-08-23T05:53:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Athaenara-2009-08-23T07:16:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-23T07:02:00.000Z"></span>I did, above—see my posts timestamped 23:11, 18 July 2009 (UTC) and 05:10, 19 July 2009 (UTC). — <a href="/wiki/User:Athaenara" title="User:Athaenara">Athaenara</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Athaenara" title="User talk:Athaenara"> ✉ </a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Athaenara-2009-08-23T07:16:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-23T07:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:16, 23 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Athaenara-2009-08-23T07:16:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-23T07:02:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Athaenara-2009-08-23T07:16:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-23T07:02:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-23T07:09:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-08-23T05:53:00.000Z"></span>There's a whole section on the Wikipedia incident, but a legitimate story like the reported threat against a major movie star as reported by Klein should not offend length sensibilities? It really does look odd. The suggestion has been outstanding for over a week and, when finally implemented, is cut out in minutes? That really does look odd as well. We are supposed to be building an encyclopedia. The focus on the Wikipedia incident when combined with the defocus on legitimate issues is disturbing. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-23T07:09:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-08-23T05:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:09, 23 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-23T07:09:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-08-23T05:53:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-23T07:09:00.000Z-Athaenara-2009-08-23T05:53:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidemon-2009-08-23T08:23:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-23T07:09:00.000Z"></span>Klein's most significant, sourced, claim to notability is his attempt to hoax Wikipedia by manufacturing a fake controversy so he could write about it. That's all as plain as day, both in the sources and in our own edit history. At that point Klein's veracity is under serious and legitimate question. We simply cannot trust that when he reports somethign, he is being at all straight about what actually happened. We would have to be crazy to do otherwise. Now he claims that a terrorist threatened Cohen. It may be true, it may not be true. But we cannot take his word for it, and the major media's reportage that he said it means nothing beyond that he said it. <a href="/wiki/User:Wikidemon" title="User:Wikidemon">Wikidemon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikidemon" title="User talk:Wikidemon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Wikidemon-2009-08-23T08:23:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-23T07:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:23, 23 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidemon-2009-08-23T08:23:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-23T07:09:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidemon-2009-08-23T08:23:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-23T07:09:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-24T05:10:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-08-23T08:23:00.000Z"></span>Wikidemon, my recollection at this time is that in the past you have helped on this page. However, this current comment of yours is so over the top that in my mind it crosses the line of BLP violations and may even evidence libel. I strongly urge you to be more careful. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-24T05:10:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-08-23T08:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:10, 24 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-24T05:10:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-08-23T08:23:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-24T05:10:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-08-23T08:23:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-79.182.104.187-2009-08-23T11:24:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span>Klein did not "attempt to hoax" Wikipedia by "manufacturing a fake controversy." He reported on a real trend on Obama's page, documented by thousands of deleted edits. He originally failed to disclose one test edit (out of thousands documented) was conducted by his researcher. He disclosed this in an updated article hours after it was released. This doesn't change the substance of his argument but was simply used by pro-Obama reporters to attempt to discredit Klein. With regard to your argument "it may be true it may not be true" - the story that Klein said there were terrorist threats gained worldwide media attention and is notable. We are not reporting there were threats, but that Klein said there were - a story that received far more media attention than his Wikipedia controversy. Your objections, after this has been festering on the discussion page for weeks with no objections from you, seem misplaced. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/79.182.104.187" title="Special:Contributions/79.182.104.187">79.182.104.187</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:79.182.104.187&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:79.182.104.187 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-79.182.104.187-2009-08-23T11:24:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:24, 23 August 2009 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-79.182.104.187-2009-08-23T11:24:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-79.182.104.187-2009-08-23T11:24:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TharsHammar-2009-08-23T13:07:00.000Z-79.182.104.187-2009-08-23T11:24:00.000Z"></span>You are right, Klein attempted to hoax the entire world with his shoddy journalistic practices and failure to disclose key information. But Klein was too dumb to get the hoaxing right, or too lazy to make 10 edits on a new account so he could edit the Obama page. Either way he is a hack. THat said, with the Bruno discussion I don't think it is noteworthy that he "broke" this story, what might be noteworthy is that Klein is collaborating with terrorist to spread terror. <a href="/wiki/User:TharsHammar" title="User:TharsHammar">TharsHammar</a><sup><i> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/TharsHammar" title="Special:Contributions/TharsHammar">Bits</a></i></sup> and<sup><i><a href="/wiki/User_talk:TharsHammar#top" title="User talk:TharsHammar">Pieces</a></i></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-TharsHammar-2009-08-23T13:07:00.000Z-79.182.104.187-2009-08-23T11:24:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:07, 23 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TharsHammar-2009-08-23T13:07:00.000Z-79.182.104.187-2009-08-23T11:24:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TharsHammar-2009-08-23T13:07:00.000Z-79.182.104.187-2009-08-23T11:24:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-24T05:18:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-08-23T13:07:00.000Z"></span>Oh my, now TharsHammar is on the attack. TharsHammar, this current comment of yours is so over the top that in my mind it crosses the line of BLP violations and may even evidence libel. "Collaborating with terrorists"? I strongly urge you to be more careful.</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>I think the Aaron Klein hatred by Wikidemon and TharsHammar is in full display with their outrageous statements, especially those of the latter. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-24T05:18:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-08-23T13:07:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:18, 24 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-24T05:18:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-08-23T13:07:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-24T05:18:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-08-23T13:07:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T06:16:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-24T05:18:00.000Z"></span>I won't engage in that kind of discussion. I've left a request on your talk page not to make accusations like that here.<a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ALegitimateAndEvenCompelling&diff=309733974&oldid=306150043">[17]</a> However, I'll also ask TharsHammar not to make gratuitous complaints about the article subject here on the article talk page. Thanks, <a href="/wiki/User:Wikidemon" title="User:Wikidemon">Wikidemon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikidemon" title="User talk:Wikidemon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T06:16:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-24T05:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:16, 24 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T06:16:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-24T05:18:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T06:16:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-24T05:18:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-79.182.104.187-2009-08-23T13:36:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span>That he broke the story has already been determined as newsworthy otherwise his breaking of the story would not have been reported by ABC News, Londom Times, etc and ABC News would not have profiled him. His involvement with this story is already newsworthy, as determined by the mainstream media and not any Wiki editor's opinion. The only question now is whether editors here are fair or biased. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/79.182.104.187" title="Special:Contributions/79.182.104.187">79.182.104.187</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:79.182.104.187&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:79.182.104.187 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-79.182.104.187-2009-08-23T13:36:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:36, 23 August 2009 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-79.182.104.187-2009-08-23T13:36:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-79.182.104.187-2009-08-23T13:36:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TharsHammar-2009-08-23T13:49:00.000Z-79.182.104.187-2009-08-23T13:36:00.000Z"></span>They were giving him credit for doing a job, but that does not mean it meets the noteworthy reqs of wikipedia. If that were so wikipedia would soon become a resume book for small time "reporters", and I use that term "reporter" very loosely when talking about Klein and his ilk. <a href="/wiki/User:TharsHammar" title="User:TharsHammar">TharsHammar</a><sup><i> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/TharsHammar" title="Special:Contributions/TharsHammar">Bits</a></i></sup> and<sup><i><a href="/wiki/User_talk:TharsHammar#top" title="User talk:TharsHammar">Pieces</a></i></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-TharsHammar-2009-08-23T13:49:00.000Z-79.182.104.187-2009-08-23T13:36:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:49, 23 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TharsHammar-2009-08-23T13:49:00.000Z-79.182.104.187-2009-08-23T13:36:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TharsHammar-2009-08-23T13:49:00.000Z-79.182.104.187-2009-08-23T13:36:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-24T05:22:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-08-23T13:49:00.000Z"></span>"Klein and his ilk"? TharsHammar, please specify who/what are his "ilk"? Then advise how you are not biased. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-24T05:22:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-08-23T13:49:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:22, 24 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-24T05:22:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-08-23T13:49:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-24T05:22:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-08-23T13:49:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidemon-2009-08-23T15:58:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-08-23T13:49:00.000Z"></span>Klein duped at least a couple major sources into covering his Wikipedia story as legitimate. They reported his claims uncritically, and did not print corrections even after Klein admitted he contrived the incident - though to their credit, these sources reported it all as a claim / accusation by Klein rather than anything that was actually happening on Wikipedia. If they had investigated what actually happened they would have seen through it as quickly as the admin (now Arbcom member) who blocked Klein's account for disruption and sockpuppetry. So we're left with two articles that are ostensibly reliable sources that report claims that are clearly untrue and, thankfully, several later reliable sources that get the story right. Unlike Wikipedia, terrorist organizations don't have edit histories online so we can't truth check Klein's claims about Bruno. But the claims have the same ring to them, they just don't sound rational or credible. This time we have a few dozen major sources picking up the claims, not just two because... well, just because. Probably the public finds Sasha Cohen and terrorists a lot more interesting than Wikipedia. Whether his story is true or not, he's clearly found a way to gain a little notoriety by exploiting a characteristic of modern journalism, that on slow news days newspapers will print sensationalist claims. I'm not sure that makes them any more notable though. Maybe we just have dozens of junky sources this time instead of just two. <a href="/wiki/User:Wikidemon" title="User:Wikidemon">Wikidemon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikidemon" title="User talk:Wikidemon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Wikidemon-2009-08-23T15:58:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-08-23T13:49:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:58, 23 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidemon-2009-08-23T15:58:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-08-23T13:49:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidemon-2009-08-23T15:58:00.000Z-TharsHammar-2009-08-23T13:49:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-24T05:25:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-08-23T15:58:00.000Z"></span>These attacks on Klein continue unabated. I do not know how to stop what may be libel. Will some administrator please get involved? HELP! --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-24T05:25:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-08-23T15:58:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:25, 24 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-24T05:25:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-08-23T15:58:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-24T05:25:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-08-23T15:58:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T06:06:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-24T05:25:00.000Z"></span>Give it a rest. It's not libel, and BLP certainly does not stop us from dealing with editors who cause disruption to articles as Klein did both here and at Barack Obama. Wikipedia handles sockpuppetry, COI editing, etc., as a behavioral matter on talk pages and metapages. Klein's misadventures on Wikipedia were his own doing, and are embodied in his public statements and the edit history of the Jerusalem21 account. It is only reasonable that this invites some scrutiny about his other claims to be doing investigative journalism. That's what the talk page is for, evaluating credibility of sources, including claims by article subjects about themselves.<a href="/wiki/User:Wikidemon" title="User:Wikidemon">Wikidemon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikidemon" title="User talk:Wikidemon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T06:06:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-24T05:25:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:06, 24 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T06:06:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-24T05:25:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T06:06:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-24T05:25:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-79.176.132.168-2009-08-24T11:11:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span>Wikidemon, you have an absolutely clear bias as evidenced by your double standard. When it comes to the claims that Klein misrepresented Wikipedia, you are willing to take the word of such second-rate sources as Wired and Defamer, which reported on the subject. This even though Klein's original article, still visible, talks about a trend of Obama's page - thousands of edits and not just Jerusalem 21. But when it comes to the terrorist threats, you are not willing to take the word of the mainstream media, including such notable outlets as ABC News and the London Times, which surely looked into Klein's claims instead of parroting them back. We are not even trying to enter Klein's claimed terrorist threats as fact, just the reported fact that Klein said the terrorist issued a statement. And yet you oppose this. You are clearly biased and should not be editing this page. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/79.176.132.168" title="Special:Contributions/79.176.132.168">79.176.132.168</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:79.176.132.168&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:79.176.132.168 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-79.176.132.168-2009-08-24T11:11:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:11, 24 August 2009 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-79.176.132.168-2009-08-24T11:11:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-79.176.132.168-2009-08-24T11:11:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T12:13:00.000Z-79.176.132.168-2009-08-24T11:11:00.000Z"></span>Whoever said I oppose it? I won't respond to the rest of the nonsense or personal attacks but I'm okay with a modest mention that Klein claims to have received a communique / threat directed at Cohen. - <a href="/wiki/User:Wikidemon" title="User:Wikidemon">Wikidemon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikidemon" title="User talk:Wikidemon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T12:13:00.000Z-79.176.132.168-2009-08-24T11:11:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:13, 24 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T12:13:00.000Z-79.176.132.168-2009-08-24T11:11:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T12:13:00.000Z-79.176.132.168-2009-08-24T11:11:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-79.176.132.168-2009-08-24T15:04:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span>Wikidemon - do you want to then suggest a text? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/79.176.132.168" title="Special:Contributions/79.176.132.168">79.176.132.168</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:79.176.132.168&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:79.176.132.168 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-79.176.132.168-2009-08-24T15:04:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:04, 24 August 2009 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-79.176.132.168-2009-08-24T15:04:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-79.176.132.168-2009-08-24T15:04:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T20:04:00.000Z-79.176.132.168-2009-08-24T15:04:00.000Z"></span>Sure, I'll come up with a proposal in several hours. I think the story is fascinating and makes a nice addition to the article. I'll probably start from LegitimateAndEvenCompelling's proposal and just simplify and shorten it. <a href="/wiki/User:Wikidemon" title="User:Wikidemon">Wikidemon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikidemon" title="User talk:Wikidemon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T20:04:00.000Z-79.176.132.168-2009-08-24T15:04:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:04, 24 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T20:04:00.000Z-79.176.132.168-2009-08-24T15:04:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T20:04:00.000Z-79.176.132.168-2009-08-24T15:04:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AniMate-2009-08-24T20:12:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T20:04:00.000Z"></span>I think any mention of this incident needs to reflect that Ayman Abu Aita isn't necessarily considered a terrorist and has threatened legal action and not murder. Not sure why Klein hasn't reported that. <a href="/wiki/User:AniMate" title="User:AniMate"><font face="Segoe Print" color="black">AniMate</font></a><small><sup><b><a href="/wiki/User_talk:AniMate" title="User talk:AniMate"><font face="Segoe Print" color="black">draw</font></a></b></sup></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-AniMate-2009-08-24T20:12:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T20:04:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:12, 24 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AniMate-2009-08-24T20:12:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T20:04:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AniMate-2009-08-24T20:12:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T20:04:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T20:31:00.000Z-AniMate-2009-08-24T20:12:00.000Z"></span>Sure. I'll check on what the sources say and try to be as faithful and straightforward as possible. It's interesting that Cohen called him a terrorist as part of his schtick, and that Aita objected, although some of this is more relevant to the Bruno film than Klein's involvement in it. <a href="/wiki/User:Wikidemon" title="User:Wikidemon">Wikidemon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikidemon" title="User talk:Wikidemon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T20:31:00.000Z-AniMate-2009-08-24T20:12:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:31, 24 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T20:31:00.000Z-AniMate-2009-08-24T20:12:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T20:31:00.000Z-AniMate-2009-08-24T20:12:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TharsHammar-2009-08-24T23:47:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T20:31:00.000Z"></span>Why has Klein not reported that? He isn't a reporter, it is not his job to report accurately. The first 10 articles on his organizations page are about Obama's birth cert. That tells you all you need to know about the organization, and as a result how much credibility we should give to Klein's "reporting". <a href="/wiki/User:TharsHammar" title="User:TharsHammar">TharsHammar</a><sup><i> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/TharsHammar" title="Special:Contributions/TharsHammar">Bits</a></i></sup> and<sup><i><a href="/wiki/User_talk:TharsHammar#top" title="User talk:TharsHammar">Pieces</a></i></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-TharsHammar-2009-08-24T23:47:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T20:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:47, 24 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TharsHammar-2009-08-24T23:47:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T20:31:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TharsHammar-2009-08-24T23:47:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-08-24T20:31:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-79.178.103.225-2009-08-25T11:10:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span>Wow, we are once again evidencing how editors here are jumping to conclusions. Not only did Klein report Abu Eita is not a terrorist, actually it was Klein who broke that story! See here: [<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=103797">[18]</a>] </p><p>To quote Klein's article: </p><p>A "terrorist leader" interviewed in the just-released hit movie "Bruno" is fuming mad, telling WND the film mislabels him and that the movie's star, Sasha Baron Cohen, conducted the interview under false pretenses.... </p><p>Aita, however, is not exactly a terrorist. At least not anymore. </p><p>Aita is a representative of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah party to the West Bank town of Beit Sahor, which is a satellite of Bethlehem. Aita also is a board member of the Holy Land Trust, a nongovernmental organization promoting Palestinian rights and commitment to nonviolence. </p><p>Aita served in the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades from 2000 until 2003, after which he did a two year stint in Israeli prison on accusations he was involved in shootings against Israeli soldiers operating in Bethlehem. Still, according to Israeli security sources speaking to WND, Aita, while a member of the Brigades, once worked with Jewish state officials to return two Israeli reserve soldiers who had gotten lost in Bethlehem. </p><p>Also, Klein's original reporting that Eita is not a terrorist was noted thoroughly by the mainstream media, with credit to Klein. </p><p>Now (Thars) let's stop the personal attacks on Klein. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/79.178.103.225" title="Special:Contributions/79.178.103.225">79.178.103.225</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:79.178.103.225&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:79.178.103.225 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-79.178.103.225-2009-08-25T11:10:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:10, 25 August 2009 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-79.178.103.225-2009-08-25T11:10:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-79.178.103.225-2009-08-25T11:10:00.000Z-Back_to_Bruno"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Personal_attacks_against_Klein" data-mw-thread-id="h-Personal_attacks_against_Klein-2009-08-25T11:15:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Personal_attacks_against_Klein-2009-08-25T11:15:00.000Z"></span>Personal attacks against Klein<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Personal_attacks_against_Klein-2009-08-25T11:15:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-79.178.103.225-2009-08-25T11:15:00.000Z-Personal_attacks_against_Klein"></span>Editors, we must review the previous recent submissions of TharsHammar to this page and determine whether any of his suggestions should be given any weight. </p><p>In just his last few comments, TharsHammar outrageously accused Klein of collaborating with terrorists. A libelous charge. </p><p>Then, TharsHammar wrote Klein was "too dumb." Now, TharsHammas wrote Klein "isn't a reporter." </p><p>This is the kind of editor allowed on this page? How is this allowed? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/79.178.103.225" title="Special:Contributions/79.178.103.225">79.178.103.225</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:79.178.103.225&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:79.178.103.225 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-79.178.103.225-2009-08-25T11:15:00.000Z-Personal_attacks_against_Klein" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:15, 25 August 2009 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-79.178.103.225-2009-08-25T11:15:00.000Z-Personal_attacks_against_Klein"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-79.178.103.225-2009-08-25T11:15:00.000Z-Personal_attacks_against_Klein"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-25T13:14:00.000Z-79.178.103.225-2009-08-25T11:15:00.000Z"></span>This is essentially an open forum, and anyone can say anything. It is not Wikipedia's fault in any way. That said, Wikipedia does have a certain set of rules. People can say whatever they like, but what they say may be against the rules. Then, depending on the circumstances, various remedies are available to stop the rule-breaking comments. Some rules have a ratcheting up effect to control the person's rule-breaking statements, and others allow immediate action. It depends on the circumstances.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>One circumstance is whether a person is living or not. If the person is living, derogatory stuff may be removed immediately, deleted right off the Talk page, for example. In this Talk page, I see a number of comments that may violate that rule, but I'm not sure I'm experienced enough to make that call. That was why I called for "HELP" on this page. It's still needed. --<a href="/wiki/User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">LegitimateAndEvenCompelling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling" title="User talk:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-25T13:14:00.000Z-79.178.103.225-2009-08-25T11:15:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:14, 25 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-25T13:14:00.000Z-79.178.103.225-2009-08-25T11:15:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-25T13:14:00.000Z-79.178.103.225-2009-08-25T11:15:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wikidemon-2009-08-25T21:55:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-25T13:14:00.000Z"></span>Can we please stay on track and not use this page to make accusations about other editors? This is not the place, and if we go down that path the current effort to discuss a proposed article addition will probably degenerate to the point of paralysis. TharsHammar is not exactly the only editor whose editing here is subject to question. I don't understand the relevance of calling Klein "dumb" but his effort create a Wikipedia hoax was truly clumsy. Regarding his credentials, I don't think it's necessary to speculate on whether we should call him a journalist or not but he is clearly out of the mainstream in advancing discredited fringe "birther" theories, and has not applied the standard journalistic practices to his efforts. That <i>is</i> relevant to the content of the article, because when a journalist viewed as a reliable source self-reports what they observe as part of a news and analysis piece we can often report that without an in-line attribution - for example "students threw rocks at the embassy". In Klein's case we would have to say something like "Klein said [or "reported" if you wish] in an article in World Net Daily that students threw rocks at the embassy". We don't need to prejudice the reader with a judgment about its veracity, but we do need to make clear it is Klein making the claim, not a reliable source. <a href="/wiki/User:Wikidemon" title="User:Wikidemon">Wikidemon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wikidemon" title="User talk:Wikidemon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-Wikidemon-2009-08-25T21:55:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-25T13:14:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:55, 25 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wikidemon-2009-08-25T21:55:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-25T13:14:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wikidemon-2009-08-25T21:55:00.000Z-LegitimateAndEvenCompelling-2009-08-25T13:14:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TharsHammar-2009-08-26T00:07:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-08-25T21:55:00.000Z"></span>IP, it is most likely you are Klein. He knows what goes on in his wikipedia page, he reads this. Your IP traces to the same service and the same town that he used to edit this page and turn it into a puff piece. I said he collaborated with terrorists because he did, and I explained how above. I was pointing that out in discussing how we should frame the incident where he helped the terrorists to terrorize Cohen. As far as him being a reporter goes, If someone hires me to hit objects with a bat that doesn't make me a baseball player. The rag he works for is not a legit or reliable news source, and Klein's writings there cannot be considered reporting. He writes for a publication - that by doesn't make him a reporter, that makes him a writer, and we should classify him as such here. Oh, and Legit - if you think what I did is against wikipedia policies, put up or be quiet. You know the venues to report me, go ahead and report me, I will respond to your false allegations in the appropriate venue if you or anyone else decides to take it there, until that time this is the last I will comment on your comments on the tenor my comments - so don't fill up this talk page with your false allegations. <a href="/wiki/User:TharsHammar" title="User:TharsHammar">TharsHammar</a><sup><i> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/TharsHammar" title="Special:Contributions/TharsHammar">Bits</a></i></sup> and<sup><i><a href="/wiki/User_talk:TharsHammar#top" title="User talk:TharsHammar">Pieces</a></i></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aaron_Klein#c-TharsHammar-2009-08-26T00:07:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-08-25T21:55:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:07, 26 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TharsHammar-2009-08-26T00:07:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-08-25T21:55:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TharsHammar-2009-08-26T00:07:00.000Z-Wikidemon-2009-08-25T21:55:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-references-wrap"><ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-berman-1"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-berman_1-0">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1238218222">.mw-parser-output cite.citation{font-style:inherit;word-wrap:break-word}.mw-parser-output .citation q{quotes:"\"""\"""'""'"}.mw-parser-output .citation:target{background-color:rgba(0,127,255,0.133)}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-free.id-lock-free a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Lock-green.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited.id-lock-limited a,.mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration.id-lock-registration a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Lock-gray-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription.id-lock-subscription a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Lock-red-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Wikisource-logo.svg")right 0.1em center/12px no-repeat}body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-free a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background-size:contain;padding:0 1em 0 0}.mw-parser-output .cs1-code{color:inherit;background:inherit;border:none;padding:inherit}.mw-parser-output .cs1-hidden-error{display:none;color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-visible-error{color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{display:none;color:#085;margin-left:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-left{padding-left:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-right{padding-right:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .citation .mw-selflink{font-weight:inherit}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .cs1-format{font-size:95%}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}</style><cite id="CITEREFBerman2008" class="citation news cs1">Berman, Ari (March 14, 2008). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/14/opinion/main3938453.shtml">"The Smear Machine Grinds On"</a>. <i><a href="/wiki/The_Nation" title="The Nation">The Nation</a></i>. CBSNews.com<span class="reference-accessdate">. Retrieved <span class="nowrap">2009-03-11</span></span>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=The+Nation&rft.atitle=The+Smear+Machine+Grinds+On&rft.date=2008-03-14&rft.aulast=Berman&rft.aufirst=Ari&rft_id=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbsnews.com%2Fstories%2F2008%2F03%2F14%2Fopinion%2Fmain3938453.shtml&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AAaron+Klein" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> </ol></div></div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aaron_Klein&oldid=310069074">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aaron_Klein&oldid=310069074</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-normal-catlinks" class="mw-normal-catlinks"><a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">Categories</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_requested_images_of_journalists" title="Category:Wikipedia requested images of journalists">Wikipedia requested images of journalists</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Start-Class_biography_articles" title="Category:Start-Class biography articles">Start-Class biography articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Biography_articles_without_infoboxes" title="Category:Biography articles without infoboxes">Biography articles without infoboxes</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_Biography_articles" title="Category:WikiProject Biography articles">WikiProject Biography articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Start-Class_Journalism_articles" title="Category:Start-Class Journalism articles">Start-Class Journalism articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Low-importance_Journalism_articles" title="Category:Low-importance Journalism articles">Low-importance Journalism articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_Journalism_articles" title="Category:WikiProject Journalism articles">WikiProject Journalism articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Articles_edited_by_connected_contributors" title="Category:Articles edited by connected contributors">Articles edited by connected contributors</a></li></ul></div><div id="mw-hidden-catlinks" class="mw-hidden-catlinks mw-hidden-cats-hidden">Hidden categories: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Pages_using_WikiProject_Biography_with_unknown_parameters" title="Category:Pages using WikiProject Biography with unknown parameters">Pages using WikiProject Biography with unknown parameters</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Articles_with_WikiProject_banners_but_without_a_banner_shell" title="Category:Articles with WikiProject banners but without a banner shell">Articles with WikiProject banners but without a banner shell</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Biography_articles_with_plain_priority_parameter" title="Category:Biography articles with plain priority parameter">Biography articles with plain priority parameter</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_banners_with_listas_value_which_needs_moving_to_banner_shell" title="Category:WikiProject banners with listas value which needs moving to banner shell">WikiProject banners with listas value which needs moving to banner shell</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Pages_using_WikiProject_Biography_which_need_living_parameter_transferring" title="Category:Pages using WikiProject Biography which need living parameter transferring">Pages using WikiProject Biography which need living parameter transferring</a></li></ul></div></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 26 August 2009, at 00:07<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright"><span class="nowraplinks">This version of the page has been <a href="/wiki/Help:Page_history" title="Help:Page history">revised</a>. 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