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innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png/25px-Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png/38px-Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png/50px-Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png 2x" data-file-width="120" data-file-height="120"></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Manual_of_Style" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Manual of Style">Manual of Style</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles"><span class="mw-default-size" typeof="mw:File"><span title="This page falls under the contentious topics procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Wikipedia Manual of Style, and the article titles policy. Both areas are subjects of debate. Contributors are urged to review the awareness criteria carefully and exercise caution when editing."><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg/20px-Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg/30px-Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg/40px-Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"></span></span></span> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles"><span class="mw-default-size" typeof="mw:File"><span title="For information on Wikipedia's approach to the establishment of new policies and guidelines, refer to WP:PROPOSAL. Additionally, guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Wikipedia policies of Wikipedia's policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations."><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Emblem-important.svg/20px-Emblem-important.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Emblem-important.svg/30px-Emblem-important.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Emblem-important.svg/40px-Emblem-important.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"></span></span></span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png/45px-Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png" decoding="async" width="45" height="45" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png/68px-Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png/90px-Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png 2x" data-file-width="120" data-file-height="120"></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This page falls within the scope of the <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Wikipedia:Manual of Style</a></b>, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Manual of Style</a> (MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Manual of Style</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Manual of Style</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Manual of Style</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Manual of Style articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Note icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg/25px-Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg/38px-Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg/50px-Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2"><b>This page falls under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Contentious_topics" title="Wikipedia:Contentious topics">contentious topics</a> procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Wikipedia <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Manual of Style</a>, and the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_titles" title="Wikipedia:Article titles">article titles policy</a>. Both areas are subjects of debate.</b><br>Contributors are urged to review the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Contentious_topics#Awareness_of_contentious_topics" title="Wikipedia:Contentious topics">awareness criteria</a> carefully and exercise caution when editing.</td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Emblem-important.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Note icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Emblem-important.svg/25px-Emblem-important.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Emblem-important.svg/38px-Emblem-important.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Emblem-important.svg/50px-Emblem-important.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">For information on Wikipedia's approach to the establishment of new <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines" title="Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines">policies and guidelines</a>, refer to <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines#Proposals" title="Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines">WP:PROPOSAL</a></b>. Additionally, <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:How_to_contribute_to_Wikipedia_guidance" title="Wikipedia:How to contribute to Wikipedia guidance">guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Wikipedia policies</a></b> of Wikipedia's policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <p class="mw-empty-elt"> </p><p><br> </p> <div id="toc" class="toc" role="navigation" aria-labelledby="mw-toc-heading"><input type="checkbox" role="button" id="toctogglecheckbox" class="toctogglecheckbox" style="display:none"><div class="toctitle" lang="en" dir="ltr"><h2 id="mw-toc-heading">Contents</h2><span class="toctogglespan"><label class="toctogglelabel" for="toctogglecheckbox"></label></span></div> <ul> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-1"><a href="#How_firm_are_the_destination_guidelines?"><span class="tocnumber">1</span> <span class="toctext">How firm are the destination guidelines?</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-2"><a href="#Keep_'British_style'_junction_lists!"><span class="tocnumber">2</span> <span class="toctext">Keep 'British style' junction lists!</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-3"><a href="#Census_designated_places_in_junction_lists"><span class="tocnumber">3</span> <span class="toctext">Census designated places in junction lists</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-4"><a href="#Missing_mile_marker_template"><span class="tocnumber">4</span> <span class="toctext">Missing mile marker template</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-5"><a href="#Including_a_direct_link_to_exit_tables"><span class="tocnumber">5</span> <span class="toctext">Including a direct link to exit tables</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(1)"><span class="indicator mf-icon mf-icon-expand mf-icon--small"></span><h2 id="How_firm_are_the_destination_guidelines?" data-mw-thread-id="h-How_firm_are_the_destination_guidelines?-2020-05-06T12:49:00.000Z"><span id="How_firm_are_the_destination_guidelines.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-How_firm_are_the_destination_guidelines?-2020-05-06T12:49:00.000Z"></span>How firm are the destination guidelines?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-How_firm_are_the_destination_guidelines?-2020-05-06T12:49:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: How firm are the destination guidelines?" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> <span class="minerva-icon minerva-icon--edit"></span> <span>edit</span> </a> </span> <span id='ooui-php-23' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'><span class='oo-ui-iconElement-icon oo-ui-icon-ellipsis'></span><span class='oo-ui-labelElement-label'></span><span class='oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator oo-ui-indicatorElement-noIndicator'></span></a></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"><span class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-metaitem ext-discussiontools-init-section-timestampLabel'>Latest comment: <a href="#c-Ken_Gallager-2020-05-06T13:08:00.000Z-Ken_Gallager-2020-05-06T12:49:00.000Z">4 years ago</a></span><span class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-metaitem ext-discussiontools-init-section-commentCountLabel'>2 comments</span><span class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-metaitem ext-discussiontools-init-section-authorCountLabel'>1 person in discussion</span></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-1 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-1"> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ken_Gallager-2020-05-06T12:49:00.000Z-How_firm_are_the_destination_guidelines?"></span>I'm having a disagreement with another editor over the destinations that should be shown in road junction lists, with the edits occurring primarily in southern New England. I want to make sure that I'm interpreting the "Destinations" bullet in <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RJL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RJL">WP:RJL</a> correctly. In my reading, we use the destinations that are shown on the signs in the field, and I interpret that to include what we can see on a Streetview-type application. It appears that the other editor wants to put in the ultimate destinations that the numbered highways lead to, often at the expense of what are actually signed. I've been attempting to engage with the editor about the guidelines, but with little success, and I haven't seen anyone else jump in. So, could someone take a look at the histories of some of the highway articles in question and offer some input? Examples abound; my most recent exchange with the editor is on <a href="/wiki/Massachusetts_Route_2A" title="Massachusetts Route 2A">Massachusetts Route 2A</a>. I've invited the editor to join this discussion. --<a href="/wiki/User:Ken_Gallager" title="User:Ken Gallager">Ken Gallager</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ken_Gallager" title="User talk:Ken Gallager">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists#c-Ken_Gallager-2020-05-06T12:49:00.000Z-How_firm_are_the_destination_guidelines?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:49, 6 May 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ken_Gallager-2020-05-06T12:49:00.000Z-How_firm_are_the_destination_guidelines?"><span id="ooui-php-1" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button"><span class="oo-ui-iconElement-icon oo-ui-icon-share oo-ui-image-progressive"></span><span class="oo-ui-labelElement-label">Reply</span><span class="oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator oo-ui-indicatorElement-noIndicator oo-ui-image-progressive"></span></a></span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ken_Gallager-2020-05-06T12:49:00.000Z-How_firm_are_the_destination_guidelines?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ken_Gallager-2020-05-06T13:08:00.000Z-Ken_Gallager-2020-05-06T12:49:00.000Z"></span>This discussion is better suited to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:USRD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:USRD">WT:USRD</a>, as it deals with application of the guidelines, not developing them, so I have reposted it there. --<a href="/wiki/User:Ken_Gallager" title="User:Ken Gallager">Ken Gallager</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ken_Gallager" title="User talk:Ken Gallager">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists#c-Ken_Gallager-2020-05-06T13:08:00.000Z-Ken_Gallager-2020-05-06T12:49:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:08, 6 May 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ken_Gallager-2020-05-06T13:08:00.000Z-Ken_Gallager-2020-05-06T12:49:00.000Z"><span id="ooui-php-2" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button"><span class="oo-ui-iconElement-icon oo-ui-icon-share oo-ui-image-progressive"></span><span class="oo-ui-labelElement-label">Reply</span><span class="oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator oo-ui-indicatorElement-noIndicator oo-ui-image-progressive"></span></a></span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ken_Gallager-2020-05-06T13:08:00.000Z-Ken_Gallager-2020-05-06T12:49:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(2)"><span class="indicator mf-icon mf-icon-expand mf-icon--small"></span><h2 id="Keep_'British_style'_junction_lists!" data-mw-thread-id="h-Keep_'British_style'_junction_lists!-20221103223200"><span id="Keep_.27British_style.27_junction_lists.21"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Keep_'British_style'_junction_lists!-20221103223200"></span>Keep 'British style' junction lists!<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Keep_'British_style'_junction_lists!-20221103223200"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Keep 'British style' junction lists!" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> <span class="minerva-icon minerva-icon--edit"></span> <span>edit</span> </a> </span> <span id='ooui-php-24' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'><span class='oo-ui-iconElement-icon oo-ui-icon-ellipsis'></span><span class='oo-ui-labelElement-label'></span><span class='oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator oo-ui-indicatorElement-noIndicator'></span></a></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"><span class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-metaitem ext-discussiontools-init-section-timestampLabel'>Latest comment: <a href="#c-Moabdave-20221119192200-Imzadi1979-20221118231500">2 years ago</a></span><span class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-metaitem ext-discussiontools-init-section-commentCountLabel'>10 comments</span><span class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-metaitem ext-discussiontools-init-section-authorCountLabel'>7 people in discussion</span></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-2 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-2"> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-RichardHC-20221103223200-Keep_'British_style'_junction_lists!"></span>I disagree with the insertion of standard format road junction lists on articles for motorways in the UK, because I believe they would be more difficult to read compared to what was there previously (eg: compare the list on the <a href="/wiki/M53_motorway" title="M53 motorway">M53 motorway</a> with the recently changed one on the <a href="/wiki/M56_motorway" title="M56 motorway">M56 motorway</a>). </p><p>The benefit of British style lists is that they can work with sequential and distance-based junction numbers, and visualize destinations signed from the junctions along different classes of road, it is only relaying what drivers would see on the ground to keep it straightforward. <a href="/wiki/User:RichardHC" title="User:RichardHC">RichardHC</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:RichardHC" title="User talk:RichardHC">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists#c-RichardHC-20221103223200-Keep_'British_style'_junction_lists!" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:32, 3 November 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-RichardHC-20221103223200-Keep_'British_style'_junction_lists!"><span id="ooui-php-3" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button"><span class="oo-ui-iconElement-icon oo-ui-icon-share oo-ui-image-progressive"></span><span class="oo-ui-labelElement-label">Reply</span><span class="oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator oo-ui-indicatorElement-noIndicator oo-ui-image-progressive"></span></a></span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-RichardHC-20221103223200-Keep_'British_style'_junction_lists!"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Fredddie-20221103230000-RichardHC-20221103223200"></span>On the other hand, the MOS-compliant version gives the reader some geographic context to where the road is located in addition to your reasons for keeping the British style. –<a href="/wiki/User:Fredddie" title="User:Fredddie">Fredddie</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fredddie" title="User talk:Fredddie">™</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists#c-Fredddie-20221103230000-RichardHC-20221103223200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:00, 3 November 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Fredddie-20221103230000-RichardHC-20221103223200"><span id="ooui-php-4" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button"><span class="oo-ui-iconElement-icon oo-ui-icon-share oo-ui-image-progressive"></span><span class="oo-ui-labelElement-label">Reply</span><span class="oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator oo-ui-indicatorElement-noIndicator oo-ui-image-progressive"></span></a></span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Fredddie-20221103230000-RichardHC-20221103223200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rschen7754-20221104002700-Fredddie-20221103230000"></span>There are also <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ACCESS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ACCESS">accessibility concerns</a> with the older style of tables. --<b><a href="/wiki/User:Rschen7754" title="User:Rschen7754">Rs</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rschen7754" title="User talk:Rschen7754">chen</a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Rschen7754" title="Special:Contributions/Rschen7754">7754</a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists#c-Rschen7754-20221104002700-Fredddie-20221103230000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:27, 4 November 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rschen7754-20221104002700-Fredddie-20221103230000"><span id="ooui-php-5" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button"><span class="oo-ui-iconElement-icon oo-ui-icon-share oo-ui-image-progressive"></span><span class="oo-ui-labelElement-label">Reply</span><span class="oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator oo-ui-indicatorElement-noIndicator oo-ui-image-progressive"></span></a></span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rschen7754-20221104002700-Fredddie-20221103230000"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moabdave-20221104004700-Fredddie-20221103230000"></span>To this Yank's mind, the "British style" wastes a lot of space. The two widest columns in the table impart the same information. I understand that in a dual carriageway, sometimes the exits are not identical between the carriageways. However, IMHO that's spending a lot of space to cover a scenario that is the exception, not the norm. I've always had this opinion, but I've also mostly avoided debating the issue, as I accept there's likely a regional reason many UK Roads editors prefer that format. I strongly suspect that the "British style" originated from the old railroad timetables, common throughout the world when rail was the primary form of travel. The UK style bears both a functional and visual similarity to those timetables. I also suspect that older people might prefer this format, being used to them. However, assuming my origin thoery is correct, if you look at the old railroad timetables, the read up/read down columns were the arrival and departure times, not the destination columns. In that context ordering the data in a read up/read down format on a train table saved space, not wasted it. As such, I prefer the format that imparts more information in less space, which is the "American format" (for lack of a better word). Just my $.02, please take the opinion in the gracious spirit intended. <a href="/wiki/User:Moabdave" title="User:Moabdave">Dave</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moabdave" title="User talk:Moabdave">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists#c-Moabdave-20221104004700-Fredddie-20221103230000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:47, 4 November 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moabdave-20221104004700-Fredddie-20221103230000"><span id="ooui-php-6" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button"><span class="oo-ui-iconElement-icon oo-ui-icon-share oo-ui-image-progressive"></span><span class="oo-ui-labelElement-label">Reply</span><span class="oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator oo-ui-indicatorElement-noIndicator oo-ui-image-progressive"></span></a></span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moabdave-20221104004700-Fredddie-20221103230000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Imzadi1979-20221118231500-Moabdave-20221104004700"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Moabdave" title="User:Moabdave">Moabdave</a>: there are some older American roadgeek websites that have exit list tables with per-carriageway columns in their tables. They've typically used HTML to replicate the appearance of freeway guide signs complete with colored backgrounds. We're a few layers of translation and abstraction away from that in our presentation and supply much more information, like geographic locations, mileposts, more notes, etc. That content hasn't really caught on with the different websites though, and may of them out there don't include exit lists at all. I agree that the current RJL standard is far superior. <span style="background:#006B54; padding:2px;"><b><a href="/wiki/User:Imzadi1979" title="User:Imzadi1979"><span style="color:white;">Imzadi 1979</span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Imzadi1979" title="User talk:Imzadi1979"><span style="color:white;"><big>→</big></span></a></b></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists#c-Imzadi1979-20221118231500-Moabdave-20221104004700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:15, 18 November 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Imzadi1979-20221118231500-Moabdave-20221104004700"><span id="ooui-php-7" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button"><span class="oo-ui-iconElement-icon oo-ui-icon-share oo-ui-image-progressive"></span><span class="oo-ui-labelElement-label">Reply</span><span class="oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator oo-ui-indicatorElement-noIndicator oo-ui-image-progressive"></span></a></span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Imzadi1979-20221118231500-Moabdave-20221104004700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moabdave-20221119192200-Imzadi1979-20221118231500"></span>If the difference between Wikipedia's coverage of a topic verses a fancruft website is "more information, less graphically pleasing formatting", I would argue that's how it should be.<a href="/wiki/User:Moabdave" title="User:Moabdave">Dave</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moabdave" title="User talk:Moabdave">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists#c-Moabdave-20221119192200-Imzadi1979-20221118231500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:22, 19 November 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moabdave-20221119192200-Imzadi1979-20221118231500"><span id="ooui-php-8" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button"><span class="oo-ui-iconElement-icon oo-ui-icon-share oo-ui-image-progressive"></span><span class="oo-ui-labelElement-label">Reply</span><span class="oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator oo-ui-indicatorElement-noIndicator oo-ui-image-progressive"></span></a></span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moabdave-20221119192200-Imzadi1979-20221118231500"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robertm25-20221118222400-Fredddie-20221103230000"></span>I have converted the UK A14 to the standard format before realising there was a discussion on this. It is currently at <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Robertm25/sandboxA14">sandboxA14</a> if could someone look and see if I've done it correctly before overwriting the existing junction list? (I have also posted this request to the A14 talk page but not had any response there.) <a href="/wiki/User:Robertm25" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Robertm25">Robertm25</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Robertm25" title="User talk:Robertm25">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists#c-Robertm25-20221118222400-Fredddie-20221103230000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:24, 18 November 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robertm25-20221118222400-Fredddie-20221103230000"><span id="ooui-php-9" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button"><span class="oo-ui-iconElement-icon oo-ui-icon-share oo-ui-image-progressive"></span><span class="oo-ui-labelElement-label">Reply</span><span class="oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator oo-ui-indicatorElement-noIndicator oo-ui-image-progressive"></span></a></span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robertm25-20221118222400-Fredddie-20221103230000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Imzadi1979-20221118230900-Robertm25-20221118222400"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Robertm25" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Robertm25">Robertm25</a>: looks good to me. <span style="background:#006B54; padding:2px;"><b><a href="/wiki/User:Imzadi1979" title="User:Imzadi1979"><span style="color:white;">Imzadi 1979</span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Imzadi1979" title="User talk:Imzadi1979"><span style="color:white;"><big>→</big></span></a></b></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists#c-Imzadi1979-20221118230900-Robertm25-20221118222400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:09, 18 November 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Imzadi1979-20221118230900-Robertm25-20221118222400"><span id="ooui-php-10" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button"><span class="oo-ui-iconElement-icon oo-ui-icon-share oo-ui-image-progressive"></span><span class="oo-ui-labelElement-label">Reply</span><span class="oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator oo-ui-indicatorElement-noIndicator oo-ui-image-progressive"></span></a></span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Imzadi1979-20221118230900-Robertm25-20221118222400"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robertm25-20221119141000-Keep_'British_style'_junction_lists!"></span>Does anyone have a record of which British roads contain standard format road junction lists, which have the "British" style, and which, if any, any other format or none? <a href="/wiki/User:Robertm25" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Robertm25">Robertm25</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Robertm25" title="User talk:Robertm25">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists#c-Robertm25-20221119141000-Keep_'British_style'_junction_lists!" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:10, 19 November 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robertm25-20221119141000-Keep_'British_style'_junction_lists!"><span id="ooui-php-11" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button"><span class="oo-ui-iconElement-icon oo-ui-icon-share oo-ui-image-progressive"></span><span class="oo-ui-labelElement-label">Reply</span><span class="oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator oo-ui-indicatorElement-noIndicator oo-ui-image-progressive"></span></a></span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robertm25-20221119141000-Keep_'British_style'_junction_lists!"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Floydian-20221119153100-Robertm25-20221119141000"></span>I would've cross-referenced the articles using <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Random_british_road_template&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Template:Random british road template (page does not exist)">random british road template</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span>, but it appears those junction tables are hard coded in some cases, so the answer I can give is "I'unno". It would be difficult to put into numbers. - <b><a href="/wiki/User:Floydian" title="User:Floydian">Floydian</a></b> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Floydian" title="User talk:Floydian"><span style="color: #3AAA3A;">τ</span></a></sup> <sub><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Floydian" title="Special:Contributions/Floydian"><span style="color: #3AAA3A;">¢</span></a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists#c-Floydian-20221119153100-Robertm25-20221119141000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:31, 19 November 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Floydian-20221119153100-Robertm25-20221119141000"><span id="ooui-php-12" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button"><span class="oo-ui-iconElement-icon oo-ui-icon-share oo-ui-image-progressive"></span><span class="oo-ui-labelElement-label">Reply</span><span class="oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator oo-ui-indicatorElement-noIndicator oo-ui-image-progressive"></span></a></span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Floydian-20221119153100-Robertm25-20221119141000"></span></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(3)"><span class="indicator mf-icon mf-icon-expand mf-icon--small"></span><h2 id="Census_designated_places_in_junction_lists" data-mw-thread-id="h-Census_designated_places_in_junction_lists-20230727161900"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Census_designated_places_in_junction_lists-20230727161900"></span>Census designated places in junction lists<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Census_designated_places_in_junction_lists-20230727161900"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Census designated places in junction lists" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> <span class="minerva-icon minerva-icon--edit"></span> <span>edit</span> </a> </span> <span id='ooui-php-25' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'><span class='oo-ui-iconElement-icon oo-ui-icon-ellipsis'></span><span class='oo-ui-labelElement-label'></span><span class='oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator oo-ui-indicatorElement-noIndicator'></span></a></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"><span class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-metaitem ext-discussiontools-init-section-timestampLabel'>Latest comment: <a href="#c-SounderBruce-20230728005300-Kevmin-20230728003900">1 year ago</a></span><span class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-metaitem ext-discussiontools-init-section-commentCountLabel'>6 comments</span><span class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-metaitem ext-discussiontools-init-section-authorCountLabel'>3 people in discussion</span></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-3 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-3"> <p><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kevmin-20230727161900-Census_designated_places_in_junction_lists"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:SounderBruce" title="User:SounderBruce">SounderBruce</a>:</span> and I are in disagreement at <a href="/wiki/Washington_State_Route_20" title="Washington State Route 20">Washington State Route 20‎</a> over the use of <a href="/wiki/Pine_Grove,_Washington" title="Pine Grove, Washington">Pine Grove, Washington</a> as the location for the junction between SR 20 and SR 21 North. I read the instructions here as to not add a place to a junction that is not in a community at all such a the junction of SR 20 and Old Kettle falls Rd which is outside any incorporated or Census designated place in Ferry County. The 20/21 junction is in the middle of however, and I feel meets the criteria for listing in the table.--<a href="/wiki/User:Kevmin" title="User:Kevmin"><span style="color: #120A8F;">Kev</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kevmin" title="User talk:Kevmin"><span style="color: #228B22;">min</span></a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Kevmin" title="Special:Contributions/Kevmin">§</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists#c-Kevmin-20230727161900-Census_designated_places_in_junction_lists" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:19, 27 July 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kevmin-20230727161900-Census_designated_places_in_junction_lists"><span id="ooui-php-13" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button"><span class="oo-ui-iconElement-icon oo-ui-icon-share oo-ui-image-progressive"></span><span class="oo-ui-labelElement-label">Reply</span><span class="oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator oo-ui-indicatorElement-noIndicator oo-ui-image-progressive"></span></a></span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kevmin-20230727161900-Census_designated_places_in_junction_lists"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SounderBruce-20230727162100-Kevmin-20230727161900"></span>The main discussion is at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Washington_State_Route_20" title="Talk:Washington State Route 20">Talk:Washington State Route 20</a>. As Pine Grove is not listed in the State Highway Log or in other WSDOT resources, it is not verifiable and thus does not belong in the table. <b><a href="/wiki/User:SounderBruce" title="User:SounderBruce"><span style="background:#5d9731; color:white; padding:2px;">Sounder</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:SounderBruce" title="User talk:SounderBruce"><span style="background:#1047AB; color:white; padding:2px;">Bruce</span></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists#c-SounderBruce-20230727162100-Kevmin-20230727161900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:21, 27 July 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SounderBruce-20230727162100-Kevmin-20230727161900"><span id="ooui-php-14" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button"><span class="oo-ui-iconElement-icon oo-ui-icon-share oo-ui-image-progressive"></span><span class="oo-ui-labelElement-label">Reply</span><span class="oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator oo-ui-indicatorElement-noIndicator oo-ui-image-progressive"></span></a></span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SounderBruce-20230727162100-Kevmin-20230727161900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Fredddie-20230727162900-SounderBruce-20230727162100"></span>Where is that sourcing consensus stated?--<a href="/wiki/User:Kevmin" title="User:Kevmin"><span style="color: #120A8F;">Kev</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kevmin" title="User talk:Kevmin"><span style="color: #228B22;">min</span></a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Kevmin" title="Special:Contributions/Kevmin">§</a> <dl><dd>I googled, which in itself is not the arbiter of notability, and realtor.com's definition of Pine Grove is larger than that shown on Google Maps. That and the gas station/truck stop at the intersection of SR 20 and SR 21 is called "Pine Grove Junction", so I think the argument that it's an unverifiable name is weak. Ultimately, this is a lot of energy wasted on something that just doesn't matter. I'd leave it in and move on. –<a href="/wiki/User:Fredddie" title="User:Fredddie">Fredddie</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fredddie" title="User talk:Fredddie">™</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists#c-Fredddie-20230727162900-SounderBruce-20230727162100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:29, 27 July 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Fredddie-20230727162900-SounderBruce-20230727162100"><span id="ooui-php-15" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button"><span class="oo-ui-iconElement-icon oo-ui-icon-share oo-ui-image-progressive"></span><span class="oo-ui-labelElement-label">Reply</span><span class="oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator oo-ui-indicatorElement-noIndicator oo-ui-image-progressive"></span></a></span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Fredddie-20230727162900-SounderBruce-20230727162100"></span></dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:V" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:V"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SounderBruce-20230727163700-Fredddie-20230727162900"></span>WP:V</a>. I've yet to see a reliable source that outright states that the junction is in Pine Grove; since Google Maps has inaccurate boundaries due to whatever meddling and data they use, I've stopped using them for the locations column. <b><a href="/wiki/User:SounderBruce" title="User:SounderBruce"><span style="background:#5d9731; color:white; padding:2px;">Sounder</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:SounderBruce" title="User talk:SounderBruce"><span style="background:#1047AB; color:white; padding:2px;">Bruce</span></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists#c-SounderBruce-20230727163700-Fredddie-20230727162900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:37, 27 July 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SounderBruce-20230727163700-Fredddie-20230727162900"><span id="ooui-php-16" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button"><span class="oo-ui-iconElement-icon oo-ui-icon-share oo-ui-image-progressive"></span><span class="oo-ui-labelElement-label">Reply</span><span class="oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator oo-ui-indicatorElement-noIndicator oo-ui-image-progressive"></span></a></span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SounderBruce-20230727163700-Fredddie-20230727162900"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:V" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:V"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kevmin-20230728003900-SounderBruce-20230727163700"></span>WP:V</a> is not a source for your assertion of consensus that only WASDOT sourcing is acceptable for the table though, which is what I specifically asked for. Is there consensus or is there personal perference?--<a href="/wiki/User:Kevmin" title="User:Kevmin"><span style="color: #120A8F;">Kev</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kevmin" title="User talk:Kevmin"><span style="color: #228B22;">min</span></a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Kevmin" title="Special:Contributions/Kevmin">§</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists#c-Kevmin-20230728003900-SounderBruce-20230727163700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:39, 28 July 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kevmin-20230728003900-SounderBruce-20230727163700"><span id="ooui-php-17" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button"><span class="oo-ui-iconElement-icon oo-ui-icon-share oo-ui-image-progressive"></span><span class="oo-ui-labelElement-label">Reply</span><span class="oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator oo-ui-indicatorElement-noIndicator oo-ui-image-progressive"></span></a></span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kevmin-20230728003900-SounderBruce-20230727163700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SounderBruce-20230728005300-Kevmin-20230728003900"></span>I've yet to see a reliable source for Pine Grove's boundaries. I'm simply using WSDOT's resources because they are of good quality and meet the project's needs. Any unsourced and unverifiable content has to be removed, per <b>site-wide</b> policy. <b><a href="/wiki/User:SounderBruce" title="User:SounderBruce"><span style="background:#5d9731; color:white; padding:2px;">Sounder</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:SounderBruce" title="User talk:SounderBruce"><span style="background:#1047AB; color:white; padding:2px;">Bruce</span></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists#c-SounderBruce-20230728005300-Kevmin-20230728003900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:53, 28 July 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SounderBruce-20230728005300-Kevmin-20230728003900"><span id="ooui-php-18" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button"><span class="oo-ui-iconElement-icon oo-ui-icon-share oo-ui-image-progressive"></span><span class="oo-ui-labelElement-label">Reply</span><span class="oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator oo-ui-indicatorElement-noIndicator oo-ui-image-progressive"></span></a></span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SounderBruce-20230728005300-Kevmin-20230728003900"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(4)"><span class="indicator mf-icon mf-icon-expand mf-icon--small"></span><h2 id="Missing_mile_marker_template" data-mw-thread-id="h-Missing_mile_marker_template-20230809193300"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Missing_mile_marker_template-20230809193300"></span>Missing mile marker template<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Missing_mile_marker_template-20230809193300"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: Missing mile marker template" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> <span class="minerva-icon minerva-icon--edit"></span> <span>edit</span> </a> </span> <span id='ooui-php-26' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'><span class='oo-ui-iconElement-icon oo-ui-icon-ellipsis'></span><span class='oo-ui-labelElement-label'></span><span class='oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator oo-ui-indicatorElement-noIndicator'></span></a></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"><span class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-metaitem ext-discussiontools-init-section-timestampLabel'>Latest comment: <a href="#c-Imzadi1979-20230810030500-Bubby33-20230809193300">1 year ago</a></span><span class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-metaitem ext-discussiontools-init-section-commentCountLabel'>2 comments</span><span class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-metaitem ext-discussiontools-init-section-authorCountLabel'>2 people in discussion</span></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-4 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-4"> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bubby33-20230809193300-Missing_mile_marker_template"></span>I remember there being a template for highway junction lists where one or more of the mile markers are missing. I tried to search for it on Google and found nothing. What is the template used? I want to add it to US Route 322.<a href="/wiki/User:Bubby33" title="User:Bubby33">Bubby33</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bubby33" title="User talk:Bubby33">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists#c-Bubby33-20230809193300-Missing_mile_marker_template" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:33, 9 August 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bubby33-20230809193300-Missing_mile_marker_template"><span id="ooui-php-19" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button"><span class="oo-ui-iconElement-icon oo-ui-icon-share oo-ui-image-progressive"></span><span class="oo-ui-labelElement-label">Reply</span><span class="oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator oo-ui-indicatorElement-noIndicator oo-ui-image-progressive"></span></a></span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bubby33-20230809193300-Missing_mile_marker_template"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Imzadi1979-20230810030500-Bubby33-20230809193300"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Bubby33" title="User:Bubby33">Bubby33</a>: <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Mileposts" title="Template:Mileposts">mileposts</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span>. <span style="background:#006B54; padding:2px;"><b><a href="/wiki/User:Imzadi1979" title="User:Imzadi1979"><span style="color:white;">Imzadi 1979</span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Imzadi1979" title="User talk:Imzadi1979"><span style="color:white;"><big>→</big></span></a></b></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists#c-Imzadi1979-20230810030500-Bubby33-20230809193300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:05, 10 August 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Imzadi1979-20230810030500-Bubby33-20230809193300"><span id="ooui-php-20" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button"><span class="oo-ui-iconElement-icon oo-ui-icon-share oo-ui-image-progressive"></span><span class="oo-ui-labelElement-label">Reply</span><span class="oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator oo-ui-indicatorElement-noIndicator oo-ui-image-progressive"></span></a></span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Imzadi1979-20230810030500-Bubby33-20230809193300"></span></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(5)"><span class="indicator mf-icon mf-icon-expand mf-icon--small"></span><h2 id="Including_a_direct_link_to_exit_tables" data-mw-thread-id="h-Including_a_direct_link_to_exit_tables-20241102182600"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Including_a_direct_link_to_exit_tables-20241102182600"></span>Including a direct link to exit tables<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Including_a_direct_link_to_exit_tables-20241102182600"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: Including a direct link to exit tables" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> <span class="minerva-icon minerva-icon--edit"></span> <span>edit</span> </a> </span> <span id='ooui-php-27' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'><span class='oo-ui-iconElement-icon oo-ui-icon-ellipsis'></span><span class='oo-ui-labelElement-label'></span><span class='oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator oo-ui-indicatorElement-noIndicator'></span></a></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"><span class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-metaitem ext-discussiontools-init-section-timestampLabel'>Latest comment: <a href="#c-Imzadi1979-20241102184500-Tavix-20241102182600">28 days ago</a></span><span class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-metaitem ext-discussiontools-init-section-commentCountLabel'>2 comments</span><span class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-metaitem ext-discussiontools-init-section-authorCountLabel'>2 people in discussion</span></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-5 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-5"> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tavix-20241102182600-Including_a_direct_link_to_exit_tables"></span>I'm looking for a way to resolve <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2024_October_30#List_of_exits_on_Interstate_5" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 October 30">Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 October 30#List of exits on Interstate 5</a> without disambiguating, and I believe the best solution would be to include direct links to the detailed exit list tables from the junction list. There is a reasonable expectation to find it there, so including the direct link there would make those tables less hidden in case a reader is unaware they can find it in the state article (or may not know how to navigate there easily). I offer two formats for your consideration: <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Interstate_5&oldid=1254962037#Junction_list">option #1</a> has the link in a see also template and <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Interstate_5&direction=next&oldid=1254984306#Junction_list">option #2</a> is a bit sleeker by folding it into the State header. --<a href="/wiki/User:Tavix" title="User:Tavix"> <span style="color:#000080; font-family:georgia"><b>T</b>avix</span></a> <sup>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tavix" title="User talk:Tavix"><span style="color:#000080; font-family:georgia">talk</span></a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists#c-Tavix-20241102182600-Including_a_direct_link_to_exit_tables" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:26, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tavix-20241102182600-Including_a_direct_link_to_exit_tables"><span id="ooui-php-21" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button"><span class="oo-ui-iconElement-icon oo-ui-icon-share oo-ui-image-progressive"></span><span class="oo-ui-labelElement-label">Reply</span><span class="oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator oo-ui-indicatorElement-noIndicator oo-ui-image-progressive"></span></a></span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tavix-20241102182600-Including_a_direct_link_to_exit_tables"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Imzadi1979-20241102184500-Tavix-20241102182600"></span>Option 1 breaks the formatting of the listing for screen readers. (The <code>;</code> and <code>:</code> formatting is actually a definition list, which we're using for these summary lists.) Option 2 contradicts <a href="/wiki/MOS:BOLD" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:BOLD">MOS:BOLD</a>, which says that we aren't supposed to bold a link.</dd> <dd>At best, <i>if</i> we need to put links to the article sections, it should be at the top of the section as a single <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:See_also" title="Template:See also">see also</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> hatnote, but honestly, I don't think we need it at all. Each state-detail article is already linked as <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Main" title="Template:Main">main</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> links in the route description section.</dd> <dd>That redirect dates back to 2007 when there was still uncertainty on how to handle multi-state exit list table for <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SIZE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SIZE">WP:SIZE</a> concerns, and the project ultimately decided to do individual exit lists in the state-detail articles. At one point, the redirect would have needed to be retained for licensing reasons when the content was moved, but those tables were totally rebuilt long ago with the <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Jctint" title="Template:Jctint">jctint</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> suite of templates, removing the need to retain it. I don't think it's a likely search term since the more likely search will be for the highway itself, a much shorter term than the redirect. It's not needed and unhelpful now, so that redirect should be deleted and others link it shouldn't be created where currently missing, which is most of the Interstates in the US. <span style="background:#006B54; padding:2px;"><b><a href="/wiki/User:Imzadi1979" title="User:Imzadi1979"><span style="color:white;">Imzadi 1979</span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Imzadi1979" title="User talk:Imzadi1979"><span style="color:white;"><big>→</big></span></a></b></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists#c-Imzadi1979-20241102184500-Tavix-20241102182600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:45, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Imzadi1979-20241102184500-Tavix-20241102182600"><span id="ooui-php-22" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement 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