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href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r&oldid=1259904700" title="Talk:Owain Glyndŵr">Revision as of 18:56, 27 November 2024</a> <span class="mw-diff-edit"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r&action=edit&oldid=1259904700" title="Talk:Owain Glyndŵr">edit</a></span><span class="mw-diff-timestamp" data-timestamp="2024-11-27T18:56:34Z"></span></strong></div><div id="mw-diff-otitle2"><a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" class="mw-userlink" title="User:Sirfurboy" data-mw-revid="1259904700"><bdi>Sirfurboy</bdi></a> <span class="mw-usertoollinks">(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" class="mw-usertoollinks-talk" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sirfurboy" class="mw-usertoollinks-contribs" title="Special:Contributions/Sirfurboy">contribs</a>)</span><div class="mw-diff-usermetadata"><div class="mw-diff-userroles"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Extended_confirmed_editors" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Extended confirmed editors">Extended confirmed users</a></div><div class="mw-diff-usereditcount"><span>20,601</span> edits</div></div></div><div id="mw-diff-otitle3"> <span class="comment comment--without-parentheses"><span class="autocomment"><a href="#Gold_dragon">→<bdi dir="ltr">Gold dragon</bdi></a>: </span> Reply</span></div><div id="mw-diff-otitle5"><span class="mw-tag-markers"><a href="/wiki/Special:Tags" title="Special:Tags">Tag</a>: <span class="mw-tag-marker mw-tag-marker-discussiontools-reply"><a class="external text" href="https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Help:DiscussionTools">Reply</a></span></span></div><div id="mw-diff-otitle4"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r&diff=prev&oldid=1259904700" title="Talk:Owain Glyndŵr" id="differences-prevlink">← Previous edit</a></div></td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-ntitle diff-side-added"><div id="mw-diff-ntitle1"><strong><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r&oldid=1259911058" title="Talk:Owain Glyndŵr">Revision as of 19:35, 27 November 2024</a> <span class="mw-diff-edit"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r&action=edit&oldid=1259911058" title="Talk:Owain Glyndŵr">edit</a></span><span class="mw-diff-timestamp" data-timestamp="2024-11-27T19:35:56Z"></span> <span class="mw-diff-undo"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r&action=edit&undoafter=1259904700&undo=1259911058" title=""Undo" reverts this edit and opens the edit form in preview mode. It allows adding a reason in the summary.">undo</a></span></strong></div><div id="mw-diff-ntitle2"><a href="/wiki/User:DankJae" class="mw-userlink" title="User:DankJae" data-mw-revid="1259911058"><bdi>DankJae</bdi></a> <span class="mw-usertoollinks">(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:DankJae" class="mw-usertoollinks-talk" title="User talk:DankJae">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/DankJae" class="mw-usertoollinks-contribs" title="Special:Contributions/DankJae">contribs</a>)</span><div class="mw-diff-usermetadata"><div class="mw-diff-userroles"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Extended_confirmed_editors" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Extended confirmed editors">Extended confirmed users</a></div><div class="mw-diff-usereditcount"><span>37,562</span> edits</div></div></div><div id="mw-diff-ntitle3"> <span class="comment comment--without-parentheses"><span class="autocomment"><a href="#Gold_dragon">→<bdi dir="ltr">Gold dragon</bdi></a>: </span> Reply</span></div><div id="mw-diff-ntitle5"><span class="mw-tag-markers"><a href="/wiki/Special:Tags" title="Special:Tags">Tag</a>: <span class="mw-tag-marker mw-tag-marker-discussiontools-reply"><a class="external text" href="https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Help:DiscussionTools">Reply</a></span></span></div><div id="mw-diff-ntitle4"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r&diff=next&oldid=1259911058" title="Talk:Owain Glyndŵr" id="differences-nextlink">Next edit →</a></div></td> </tr><tr> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 177:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 177:</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-deleted"><div>:::It's not original research though, the evidence is there; Adam of usk described it as being gold (yellow), and there's an image of the dragon on his seals, so I fail to see how a flag that is similar to the original is original research, perhaps it's 20% inaccurate, but so are most flags used on wikipedia, cut me a break here, the image has been updated to reflect that it's modern, that's more than what other editors have done when their flags are terribly inaccurate. [[User:Hogyncymru|Hogyncymru]] ([[User talk:Hogyncymru|talk]]) 17:06, 26 November 2024 (UTC)</div></td> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-added"><div>:::It's not original research though, the evidence is there; Adam of usk described it as being gold (yellow), and there's an image of the dragon on his seals, so I fail to see how a flag that is similar to the original is original research, perhaps it's 20% inaccurate, but so are most flags used on wikipedia, cut me a break here, the image has been updated to reflect that it's modern, that's more than what other editors have done when their flags are terribly inaccurate. [[User:Hogyncymru|Hogyncymru]] ([[User talk:Hogyncymru|talk]]) 17:06, 26 November 2024 (UTC)</div></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-deleted"><div>::::To be clear, I already did cut you a break in that I did not revert your edit. Neither did I revert the addition at [[Welsh Dragon]]. But I still do not think this is a good image for a page about Glyndŵr because the image is speculative. We do not know what the dragon looked like on Glyndŵr's banner, and we have only one source saying it was there at all. Let's see if any other editors have a view. [[User:Sirfurboy|Sirfurboy🏄]] ([[User talk:Sirfurboy|talk]]) 18:56, 27 November 2024 (UTC)</div></td> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-added"><div>::::To be clear, I already did cut you a break in that I did not revert your edit. Neither did I revert the addition at [[Welsh Dragon]]. But I still do not think this is a good image for a page about Glyndŵr because the image is speculative. We do not know what the dragon looked like on Glyndŵr's banner, and we have only one source saying it was there at all. Let's see if any other editors have a view. [[User:Sirfurboy|Sirfurboy🏄]] ([[User talk:Sirfurboy|talk]]) 18:56, 27 November 2024 (UTC)</div></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" class="diff-empty diff-side-deleted"></td> <td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td> <td class="diff-addedline diff-side-added"><div>::::Is there any sources clarifying any of this? If we're talking about [[:File:Y Draig Aur Owain Glyndŵr.jpg]], the current citations here lack any visuals and just state "gold(en) dragon" on white. So if it actually means a wyvern or not, without a (clarifying) source it is just a custom user-generated flag (OR) that is best to be removed when in doubt.</div></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" class="diff-empty diff-side-deleted"></td> <td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td> <td class="diff-addedline diff-side-added"><div>::::Is there a suggestion to add the modern flag here? [[MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE|Why?]] Do sources state the modern flag as a modern version of the banner? If not, then no as then it is just an editor's conclusion (OR).</div></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" class="diff-empty diff-side-deleted"></td> <td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td> <td class="diff-addedline diff-side-added"><div>::::If other parts of Wikipedia are "inaccurate", it doesn't justify making it more so. '''[[User:DankJae|<span style="color: black">Dank</span>]][[User talk:DankJae|<span style="color: red">Jae</span>]]''' 19:35, 27 November 2024 (UTC)</div></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-deleted"><br /></td> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-added"><br /></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-deleted"><div>== Ancestry ==</div></td> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-added"><div>== Ancestry ==</div></td> </tr>  </table><hr class='diff-hr' id='mw-oldid' /> <h2 class='diff-currentversion-title'>Revision as of 19:35, 27 November 2024</h2> <div class="mw-content-ltr mw-parser-output" lang="en" dir="ltr"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1237879475">.mw-parser-output .tmbox{margin:4px 0;border-collapse:collapse;border:1px solid #c0c090;background-color:#f8eaba;box-sizing:border-box}.mw-parser-output .tmbox.mbox-small{font-size:88%;line-height:1.25em}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{border:2px solid #b32424;background-color:#fee7e6}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-delete{border:2px solid #b32424}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-content{border:2px solid #f28500}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-style{border:2px solid #fc3}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-move{border:2px solid #9932cc}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-text{border:none;padding:0.25em 0.9em;width:100%}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-image{border:none;padding:2px 0 2px 0.9em;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-imageright{border:none;padding:2px 0.9em 2px 0;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-empty-cell{border:none;padding:0;width:1px}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-invalid-type{text-align:center}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .tmbox{margin:4px 10%}.mw-parser-output .tmbox.mbox-small{clear:right;float:right;margin:4px 0 4px 1em;width:238px}}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .tmbox{background-color:#2e2505}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .tmbox{background-color:#2e2505}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}body.skin--responsive .mw-parser-output table.tmbox img{max-width:none!important}</style><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1230750088">.mw-parser-output .talkheader{text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-body{display:flex}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts{display:flex;align-items:center;padding:0.1em}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help{flex:2 1 auto;border:1px solid #c0c090;background-color:var(--background-color-base,#ffffff);color:inherit}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies{flex:1 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies+.talkheader-policies{border-left:1px solid #c0c090}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts{flex:0 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help>*,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies>*,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts>*{flex:1 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help ul,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies ul{margin:0.1em 0.8em 0 1.6em;text-align:left}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .talkheader{min-width:80%}}</style><table role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice talkheader plainlinks" id="talkheader" style="border-collapse: separate;"><tbody><tr> <td style="border-bottom: 1px solid #c0c090; font-weight: bold;">This is the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines" title="Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines">talk page</a> for discussing improvements to the <a href="/wiki/Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r" title="Owain Glyndŵr">Owain Glyndŵr</a> article.<br/> This is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#FORUM" title="Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not">not a forum</a> for general discussion of the article's subject.</td> </tr> <tr> <td> <div class="talkheader-body"> <div class="talkheader-help"> <ul><li>Put new text under old text. <strong><a href="/wiki/Special:NewSection/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r" title="Special:NewSection/Talk:Owain Glyndŵr">Click here to start a new topic.</a></strong></li> <li>New to Wikipedia? 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typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/C%C3%ADrculos_Conc%C3%A9ntricos.svg/16px-C%C3%ADrculos_Conc%C3%A9ntricos.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/C%C3%ADrculos_Conc%C3%A9ntricos.svg/24px-C%C3%ADrculos_Conc%C3%A9ntricos.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/C%C3%ADrculos_Conc%C3%A9ntricos.svg/32px-C%C3%ADrculos_Conc%C3%A9ntricos.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="215" data-file-height="215"/></span></span> <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/People/Politicians_and_leaders#Wales" title="Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Politicians and leaders">level-5 vital article</a></b> is rated <b>B-class</b> on Wikipedia's <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_assessment" title="Wikipedia:Content assessment">content assessment</a> scale.<br/>It is of interest to the following <a 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.import-top{background-color:#FFBFFF}.mw-parser-output .import-high{background-color:#FFCCFF}.mw-parser-output .import-mid{background-color:#FFD9FF}.mw-parser-output .import-low{background-color:#FFE7FF}.mw-parser-output .import-bottom{background-color:#FFEBFF}.mw-parser-output .import-na{background-color:#F5F5F5}.mw-parser-output .import-unknown{background-color:#DCDCDC}.mw-parser-output .class-fa,.mw-parser-output .class-fl,.mw-parser-output .class-fm{background-color:#BED3FF}.mw-parser-output .class-a,.mw-parser-output .class-al{background-color:#C0FFFF}.mw-parser-output .class-ga{background-color:#C0FFC0}.mw-parser-output .class-b,.mw-parser-output .class-bl{background-color:#DFFFBF}.mw-parser-output .class-c,.mw-parser-output .class-cl{background-color:#FFFFBE}.mw-parser-output .class-start{background-color:#FFDBBF}.mw-parser-output .class-stub,.mw-parser-output .class-sl{background-color:#FFC0C0}.mw-parser-output .class-list{background-color:#D2C0FF}.mw-parser-output .class-na{background-color:#F5F5F5}.mw-parser-output .class-category{background-color:#FFDB58}.mw-parser-output .class-disambig{background-color:#00FA9A}.mw-parser-output .class-draft{background-color:#E7B198}.mw-parser-output .class-file{background-color:#DDCCFF}.mw-parser-output .class-future{background-color:#B4BBFF}.mw-parser-output .class-portal{background-color:#DDB1BC}.mw-parser-output .class-project{background-color:#C0C090}.mw-parser-output .class-redirect{background-color:#C0C0C0}.mw-parser-output .class-sia{background-color:#E9DAFF}.mw-parser-output .class-user{background-color:#DDD06A}.mw-parser-output .class-template{background-color:#FBCEB1}.mw-parser-output .class-unassessed{background-color:#DCDCDC}.mw-parser-output .conflict{border:0.2em solid red}.mw-parser-output .inactive-wikiproject .wpb-header-bubbles{color:inherit}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}</style><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Crystal_personal.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/25px-Crystal_personal.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/38px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/50px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="70" data-file-height="70"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography">Biography</a><span class="wpb-nested-task-force">: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Royalty_and_Nobility" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility">Royalty and Nobility</a></span> </td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Crystal_personal.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/60px-Crystal_personal.svg.png" decoding="async" width="60" height="60" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/90px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/120px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="70" data-file-height="70"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1259569809">.mw-parser-output .portalbox{padding:0;margin:0.5em 0;display:table;box-sizing:border-box;max-width:175px;list-style:none}.mw-parser-output .portalborder{border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:0.1em;background:var(--background-color-neutral-subtle,#f8f9fa)}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-entry{display:table-row;font-size:85%;line-height:110%;height:1.9em;font-style:italic;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-image{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em;vertical-align:middle;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-link{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em;vertical-align:middle}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .portalleft{clear:left;float:left;margin:0.5em 1em 0.5em 0}.mw-parser-output .portalright{clear:right;float:right;margin:0.5em 0 0.5em 1em}}</style><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/69/P_vip.svg/28px-P_vip.svg.png" decoding="async" width="28" height="28" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/69/P_vip.svg/41px-P_vip.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/69/P_vip.svg/55px-P_vip.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1911" data-file-height="1944"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Biography" title="Portal:Biography">Biography portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography">WikiProject Biography</a></b>, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Members" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Members">join the project</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Biography" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography">contribute to the discussion</a>. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the <a href="/wiki/Template:WikiProject_Biography/doc" title="Template:WikiProject Biography/doc">documentation</a>.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Biography</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Biography</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">biography articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:CrownForShield.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/CrownForShield.svg/23px-CrownForShield.svg.png" decoding="async" width="23" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/CrownForShield.svg/36px-CrownForShield.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/CrownForShield.svg/47px-CrownForShield.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="77" data-file-height="82"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article is supported by <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Royalty_and_Nobility" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility">WikiProject Royalty and Nobility</a></b>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259570071"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Waricon.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Waricon.svg/25px-Waricon.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Waricon.svg/38px-Waricon.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Waricon.svg/50px-Waricon.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="140" data-file-height="140"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history">Military history</a><span class="wpb-nested-task-force">: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/British_military_history_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/British military history task force">British</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/European_military_history_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/European military history task force">European</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/Medieval_warfare_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Medieval warfare task force">Medieval</a></span> </td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Waricon.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Waricon.svg/50px-Waricon.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Waricon.svg/75px-Waricon.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Waricon.svg/100px-Waricon.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="140" data-file-height="140"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article is within the scope of the <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history">Military history WikiProject</a></b>. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/Open_tasks" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Open tasks">list of open tasks</a>. To use this banner, please see the <a href="/wiki/Template:WikiProject_Military_history" title="Template:WikiProject Military history">full instructions</a>.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Military history</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Military history</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">military history articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess-b" style="padding-bottom:5px"><figure class="mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_assessment/B-Class_criteria" title="Wikipedia:Content assessment/B-Class criteria"><img alt="B checklist" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/25/Bclass-checklist.svg/20px-Bclass-checklist.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/25/Bclass-checklist.svg/30px-Bclass-checklist.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/25/Bclass-checklist.svg/40px-Bclass-checklist.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="100" data-file-height="100"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="wpb-collapsed-notes"><table class="plainlinks mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"><tbody><tr><th class="wpb-collapsed-head mbox-text" colspan="3" style="font-weight:normal">This article has been checked against the following <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/Assessment#Quality_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment">criteria</a></b> for B-class status:</th><td style="min-width:3em"></td></tr><tr><td style="font-size:90%"><ol><li><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/16px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/24px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/32px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span> Referencing and citation: <span style="font-style:italic">criterion met</span></li><li><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/16px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/24px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/32px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span> Coverage and accuracy: <span style="font-style:italic">criterion met</span></li><li><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/16px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/24px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/32px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span> Structure: <span style="font-style:italic">criterion met</span></li><li><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/16px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/24px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/32px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span> Grammar and style: <span style="font-style:italic">criterion met</span></li><li><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/16px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/24px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/32px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span> Supporting materials: <span style="font-style:italic">criterion met</span></li></ol></td><td style="font-size:88%"></td><td class="empty-cell"></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr><tr><td colspan="3" class="wpb-collapsed-notes"><table class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"><tbody><tr><th colspan="3" class="wpb-collapsed-head">Associated task forces:</th></tr><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-gutter" style="min-width:50px"><span class="wpb-iefix">/ </span></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_(since_1837).svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e1/Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_%28since_1837%29.svg/26px-Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_%28since_1837%29.svg.png" decoding="async" width="26" height="30" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e1/Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_%28since_1837%29.svg/39px-Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_%28since_1837%29.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e1/Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_%28since_1837%29.svg/51px-Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_%28since_1837%29.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="410" data-file-height="478"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/British_military_history_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/British military history task force">British military history task force</a></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Europe_satellite_globe.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Europe_satellite_globe.jpg/34px-Europe_satellite_globe.jpg" decoding="async" width="34" height="30" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Europe_satellite_globe.jpg/51px-Europe_satellite_globe.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Europe_satellite_globe.jpg/68px-Europe_satellite_globe.jpg 2x" data-file-width="800" data-file-height="704"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/European_military_history_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/European military history task force">European military history task force</a></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Paolo_Uccello_045.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/Paolo_Uccello_045.jpg/25px-Paolo_Uccello_045.jpg" decoding="async" width="25" height="30" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/Paolo_Uccello_045.jpg/37px-Paolo_Uccello_045.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/Paolo_Uccello_045.jpg/49px-Paolo_Uccello_045.jpg 2x" data-file-width="2024" data-file-height="2464"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/Medieval_warfare_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Medieval warfare task force">Medieval warfare task force</a> (c. 500 – c. 1500)</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259570071"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Wales.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Flag_of_Wales.svg/35px-Flag_of_Wales.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="21" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Flag_of_Wales.svg/53px-Flag_of_Wales.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Flag_of_Wales.svg/70px-Flag_of_Wales.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="800" data-file-height="480"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wales" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Wales">Wales</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-top">Top‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Wales.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Flag_of_Wales.svg/70px-Flag_of_Wales.svg.png" decoding="async" width="70" height="42" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Flag_of_Wales.svg/105px-Flag_of_Wales.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Flag_of_Wales.svg/140px-Flag_of_Wales.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="800" data-file-height="480"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259569809"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox 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I can't tell for certain who 'his', 'he', and 'Henry' refers to. I think we need to use Hotspur, Monmouth, and Henry IV here to keep it clear, but I'm not the one to do this correctly. Any help? </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Hardship_after_the_revolt" data-mw-thread-id="h-Hardship_after_the_revolt"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Hardship_after_the_revolt"></span>Hardship after the revolt<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Hardship_after_the_revolt"></span></h2></div> <p>I am wondering if the documented hardship after the revolt is as bad as it was made out. My theory is that most of the documents were from the English side, and the Welsh documents made by the higher ends of society which would more likely see the effects. </p><p>I wager that many of the English settlers in the towns left back for England during the years of the uprising which was the main cause of hardship and "grass growing in town centres" because populations in these areas was so low, whereas if 75% of the Welsh population at the time was "barefoot peasants" then any economic impact would be negligable on the poorest but self sufficient individuals. </p><p>This is in considerable contrast to today, where the poorest always seem to suffer first because of the absence of self sufficiency and dependance on society. I understand that the high echeleons of welsh society felt the pinch just as much as the English however, but I feel that widespread hardship of the Welsh as a whole is incorrect, beyond anti-welsh policies of the English. </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Prince_of_Powys_Fadog?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Prince_of_Powys_Fadog?-20231207231700"><span id="Prince_of_Powys_Fadog.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Prince_of_Powys_Fadog?-20231207231700"></span>Prince of Powys Fadog?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Prince_of_Powys_Fadog?-20231207231700"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DeCausa-20231207231700-Prince_of_Powys_Fadog?"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Academia45" title="User:Academia45">Academia45</a>:</span> You're using <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SYNTH" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SYNTH">WP:SYNTH</a> to support this. You'e given 3 citations: </p> <ul><li>Pierce: "he was thus descended from Madog ap Maredudd, last king of united Powys, and in him reposed claims of succession to that ancient province". Typically of Pierce, that's a rather antiquated turn of phrase: But what it doesn't actually say is he claimed that title. "In him reposed" actually suggests dormancy; something which has not been activated. that's actaully pretty close to the truth since there is no evidence that he accompanied his proclamation as Prince of Wales with a claim to Powys.</li> <li>Gower: "Owain's father, Gruffydd Fychan II, had been hereditary prince of Powys Fadog". It doesn't say Owain was prince of Powys Fadog. <a href="/wiki/Prince_Andrew" class="mw-redirect" title="Prince Andrew">Prince Andrew</a>'s mother was Queen of the UK. It doesn't mean he will ever be.</li> <li>Davies/BBC: "He was the lineal descendant of the princes of Powys" Same point - it doesn't say he was prince of Powys.</li></ul> <p>It's notable that while each of these three sources deal with his ancestry - none say he claimed to be Prince of Powys. If you look at Davies <i>The Revolt of Owain Glyn Dŵr</i> on pages 153-155 he goes into detail on what was proclaimed in the revolt - he declared himslef prince of wales. there's no mention of Powys. <a href="/wiki/User:DeCausa" title="User:DeCausa">DeCausa</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:DeCausa" title="User talk:DeCausa">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-DeCausa-20231207231700-Prince_of_Powys_Fadog?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:17, 7 December 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DeCausa-20231207231700-Prince_of_Powys_Fadog?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DeCausa-20231207231700-Prince_of_Powys_Fadog?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Academia45-20231208022800-DeCausa-20231207231700"></span>Hi. No he didn't claim it, but was hereditary in the order of succession, which is why it is changed from claimant to hereditary like it was before. The first reference should have been enough but someone contested it after basically 10 years being there. Pierce reference = " in him reposed claims of succession to that ancient province " = he was the hereditary Prince of Powys Fadog. That the title was claimed or not is not the point here. As an example, the current heads of the <a href="/wiki/House_of_Bonaparte" title="House of Bonaparte">House of Bonaparte</a> and <a href="/wiki/House_of_Bourbon-Two_Sicilies" title="House of Bourbon-Two Sicilies">House of Bourbon-Two Sicilies</a> did not "claim" their titles, as the monarchy was abolished a long time ago, but they are still Princes, as heirs (heredetary). Their titles are "titles of courtesy". Royal titles from deposed monarchies differs from noble titles.</dd> <dd>External link : <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://royalcentral.co.uk/features/why-do-royals-from-deposed-monarchies-keep-their-titles-104662/">https://royalcentral.co.uk/features/why-do-royals-from-deposed-monarchies-keep-their-titles-104662/</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Academia45" title="User:Academia45">Academia45</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Academia45" title="User talk:Academia45">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Academia45-20231208022800-DeCausa-20231207231700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:28, 8 December 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Academia45-20231208022800-DeCausa-20231207231700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Academia45-20231208022800-DeCausa-20231207231700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DankJae-20231208023800-Academia45-20231208022800"></span>Note: @<a href="/wiki/User:Academia45" title="User:Academia45">Academia45</a>, if you're citing Royal Central, note it is <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#Royal_Central">depreciated</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DEPREC" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DEPREC"><u>not to be used</u></a>. <b><a href="/wiki/User:DankJae" title="User:DankJae"><span style="color: black">Dank</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:DankJae" title="User talk:DankJae"><span style="color: red">Jae</span></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-DankJae-20231208023800-Academia45-20231208022800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:38, 8 December 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DankJae-20231208023800-Academia45-20231208022800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DankJae-20231208023800-Academia45-20231208022800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Academia45-20231208031700-DankJae-20231208023800"></span>you are right, I added it on the spur as a quick explanation of the concept. <a href="/wiki/User:Academia45" title="User:Academia45">Academia45</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Academia45" title="User talk:Academia45">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Academia45-20231208031700-DankJae-20231208023800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:17, 8 December 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Academia45-20231208031700-DankJae-20231208023800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Academia45-20231208031700-DankJae-20231208023800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DeCausa-20231208102000-Academia45-20231208031700"></span>None of the sources say he was "hereditary Prince of Powys". There's no inherent meaning of "hereditary" Prince of anywhere - you have applied your own interpretation which isn't in the sources. At minimum two of the sources fail verification and I'm taking them out. They don't even say that he was next in the line of succession. The Pierce source fails verification as well but I'll leave it in for the moment but add a better source needed tag. TYhe whole thing is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR">WP:OR</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:DeCausa" title="User:DeCausa">DeCausa</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:DeCausa" title="User talk:DeCausa">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-DeCausa-20231208102000-Academia45-20231208031700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:20, 8 December 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DeCausa-20231208102000-Academia45-20231208031700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DeCausa-20231208102000-Academia45-20231208031700"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Location_of_marriage." data-mw-thread-id="h-Location_of_marriage.-20231228105500"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Location_of_marriage.-20231228105500"></span>Location of marriage.<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Location_of_marriage.-20231228105500"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2A00:23C8:6E08:7601:ED94:6BA:582D:84E1-20231228105500-Location_of_marriage."></span>Is the location of the wedding incorrect? I believe the church was the St Chad's at Hanmer not Holt. This would make sense as it is where the Hanmer estate is based and would be their family church. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2A00:23C8:6E08:7601:ED94:6BA:582D:84E1" title="Special:Contributions/2A00:23C8:6E08:7601:ED94:6BA:582D:84E1">2A00:23C8:6E08:7601:ED94:6BA:582D:84E1</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2A00:23C8:6E08:7601:ED94:6BA:582D:84E1&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:2A00:23C8:6E08:7601:ED94:6BA:582D:84E1 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-2A00:23C8:6E08:7601:ED94:6BA:582D:84E1-20231228105500-Location_of_marriage." class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:55, 28 December 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2A00:23C8:6E08:7601:ED94:6BA:582D:84E1-20231228105500-Location_of_marriage."><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2A00:23C8:6E08:7601:ED94:6BA:582D:84E1-20231228105500-Location_of_marriage."></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20240117230700-2A00:23C8:6E08:7601:ED94:6BA:582D:84E1-20231228105500"></span>Correction made, thanks. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20240117230700-2A00:23C8:6E08:7601:ED94:6BA:582D:84E1-20231228105500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:07, 17 January 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20240117230700-2A00:23C8:6E08:7601:ED94:6BA:582D:84E1-20231228105500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20240117230700-2A00:23C8:6E08:7601:ED94:6BA:582D:84E1-20231228105500"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Good_article" data-mw-thread-id="h-Good_article-20240815170700"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Good_article-20240815170700"></span>Good article<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Good_article-20240815170700"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20240815170700-Good_article"></span>Any thoughts on working on the article a little more, with only 8 {{citations needed, and 3 {{pages needed, this article is almost complete after being restructured, and grammatically corrected. This article is better than a 'B', and I don't think this article would need an overhaul for a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_assessment" title="Wikipedia:Content assessment">Wikipedia:Content assessment</a> improvement, but I believe this can easily be upgraded to a Good Article (GA) with the removal of the unreferenced text and to find alternative sources or page numbers for incomplete references. Any thoughts on this potential article promotion to a good article from B? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20240815170700-Good_article" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:07, 15 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20240815170700-Good_article"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20240815170700-Good_article"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20240828164500-Cltjames-20240815170700"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:DankJae" title="User:DankJae">DankJae</a>:</span> what do you think ? Maybe the article needs some more proof reading, but as for a GA nomination, it's about ready, is it not?? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20240828164500-Cltjames-20240815170700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:45, 28 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20240828164500-Cltjames-20240815170700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20240828164500-Cltjames-20240815170700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DankJae-20240828202400-Cltjames-20240828164500"></span>Pinging @<a href="/wiki/User:Ham_II" title="User:Ham II">Ham II</a>, @<a href="/wiki/User:A.D.Hope" title="User:A.D.Hope">A.D.Hope</a>, and @<a href="/wiki/User:KJP1" title="User:KJP1">KJP1</a>, who have more GA experience I think. Be free to ping others.</dd> <dd>A little rough with GA personally and a bit busy, but will look briefly soon. Thanks <b><a href="/wiki/User:DankJae" title="User:DankJae"><span style="color: black">Dank</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:DankJae" title="User talk:DankJae"><span style="color: red">Jae</span></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-DankJae-20240828202400-Cltjames-20240828164500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:24, 28 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DankJae-20240828202400-Cltjames-20240828164500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DankJae-20240828202400-Cltjames-20240828164500"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20240830022900-Cltjames-20240828164500"></span>I did some more work (most), but more {{citation, now 11. I felt a proofread was necessary and the separation of new sections. I haven't gone through all of it, but am at a bit of a disadvantage to finish as I don't have the correct sources to reference all the text. If anyone could come up with some references, that would be great, if not, tbc... <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20240830022900-Cltjames-20240828164500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:29, 30 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20240830022900-Cltjames-20240828164500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20240830022900-Cltjames-20240828164500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-KJP1-20240830084900-Cltjames-20240828164500"></span>A few quick thoughts:</dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li>The prose needs, quite a lot of, work;</li> <li>There's a mix of referencing/citation styles, sfn and other;</li> <li>There are quite a lot of old sources, 19th century histories and earlier, which I'm dubious about. The Banners / Lineage and Ancestry confusion sections are particularly weak here. On that point, I'm not sure what the Ancestry confusion section is actually saying. It says other historians "reciprocate" [not the right word] Lloyd, who appears to be saying OG wasn't descended from LG, but then ends with a citeless sentence that says he was? There are more modern sources - which is great - but are we sure we cover the most up-to-date studies of OG? It's not my period, so I can't say. There's also at least two blogs in there which would need to come out. <a href="/wiki/User:KJP1" title="User:KJP1">KJP1</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KJP1" title="User talk:KJP1">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-KJP1-20240830084900-Cltjames-20240828164500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:49, 30 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-KJP1-20240830084900-Cltjames-20240828164500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-KJP1-20240830084900-Cltjames-20240828164500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20240830151700-KJP1-20240830084900"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:KJP1" title="User:KJP1">KJP1</a> OK, thanks. So, as for the prose, I agree that another proofread would be necessary to ensure the flow of the article. All I did was restructured chronologically and separated paragraphs with new headings for better clarity. Then, a simple grammar improval and the removal of duplicate text. As for the ancestry confusion, that was a late addition, and it is difficult to correctly explain due to a lack of sources. Which brings the issue of WP:RS with many books from the 19th and early 20th centuries. For now, I will try add a few details, to remove {{cn. But I will look into finding newer materials to replace older sourced references, so I guess take it from there for now before the article can be considered a GA, but it is close! <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20240830151700-KJP1-20240830084900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:17, 30 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20240830151700-KJP1-20240830084900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20240830151700-KJP1-20240830084900"></span> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20241103145900-Cltjames-20240830151700"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy</a>:</span> thanks for all the additional tidy up these past few days... Do you think the article is ready for a submission for a GA, good article ?? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20241103145900-Cltjames-20240830151700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:59, 3 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20241103145900-Cltjames-20240830151700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20241103145900-Cltjames-20240830151700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20241103150400-Cltjames-20241103145900"></span>I am mostly looking at the referencing at the moment. The citation style remains inconsistent. It will take a little longer to fix that. I haven't looked at the other good article criteria. Have we checked for copyvio? <a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20241103150400-Cltjames-20241103145900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:04, 3 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20241103150400-Cltjames-20241103145900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20241103150400-Cltjames-20241103145900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20241103150700-Sirfurboy-20241103150400"></span>OK, interesting, I've never heard of copyvio, but found it on a web search. As for the style, you mean {{cite book| etc. I'm pretty sure everything is covered in terms of either {{cite; harv and sfn. Perhaps this week we can submit the article for a GA review, it will take some minor work which I can look into in some time. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20241103150700-Sirfurboy-20241103150400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:07, 3 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20241103150700-Sirfurboy-20241103150400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20241103150700-Sirfurboy-20241103150400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20241103152200-Cltjames-20241103150700"></span>Unfortunately the copyvio suggests the article is potentially 52% copyright violation, with one article as high as 42% but the majority of the 70 or so articles, maybe 1/3 or the work under 10% with a few exceptions. I don't know where to take it from there, I didn't write the article, I just added the book references I could acquire and I restructured the paragraphs and headings. As for who wrote it, I don't know, and if it was plagiarism, then it makes it very difficult to write now. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20241103152200-Cltjames-20241103150700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:22, 3 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20241103152200-Cltjames-20241103150700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20241103152200-Cltjames-20241103150700"></span> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20241103185800-Cltjames-20241103152200"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy</a>:</span> the tidyup was a good idea, just wondering if all the book sources are needed now, because there's a lot, of whether we can cull the sources into a smaller list of books that are directly referenced in the article? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20241103185800-Cltjames-20241103152200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:58, 3 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20241103185800-Cltjames-20241103152200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20241103185800-Cltjames-20241103152200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20241103190200-Cltjames-20241103185800"></span>All the sources under the Sources heading should be cited in the main text. That section is the bibliography that we are referencing with in-text citations. I am not aware that any there are not referenced. Are they? Further reading can be considered. <a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20241103190200-Cltjames-20241103185800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:02, 3 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20241103190200-Cltjames-20241103185800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20241103190200-Cltjames-20241103185800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20241103192200-Sirfurboy-20241103190200"></span>There wasn't many, I had this problem when I tried doing a copyedit with the Madoc article. I removed maybe 3 and moved the reference and link for Owen Glendower to further reading, which has relevance to this article. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20241103192200-Sirfurboy-20241103190200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:22, 3 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20241103192200-Sirfurboy-20241103190200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20241103192200-Sirfurboy-20241103190200"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20241104222500-Cltjames-20241103152200"></span>I missed this. I have started a copyvio section now. <a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20241104222500-Cltjames-20241103152200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:25, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20241104222500-Cltjames-20241103152200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20241104222500-Cltjames-20241103152200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20241104223000-Sirfurboy-20241104222500"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy</a> it's ok. Thanks for the hard work you put in. It's an interesting subject to learn about, eerie perhaps for those of us who are Welsh descendants of the Glyndwr era. I'm not too sure how to find some of the missing content that has been cited as citations needed or better sourced needed. At this stage, if we wanted to finish the article and submit for a GA review, would you suggest deleting content or looking to find the sources somehow ? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20241104223000-Sirfurboy-20241104222500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:30, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20241104223000-Sirfurboy-20241104222500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20241104223000-Sirfurboy-20241104222500"></span> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DeCausa-20241104224800-Cltjames-20241104223000"></span>@<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a>:</span>. Yesterday you wrote (above) <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1248585704">@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{font-family:Georgia,"DejaVu Serif",serif;color:#008560;quotes:none}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-italic{font-family:inherit;font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-marks{quotes:"\"""\""}</style><q class="inline-quote-talk">I didn't write the article, I just added the book references I could acquire and I restructured the paragraphs and headings. As for who wrote it, I don't know</q>. The article stats (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://xtools.wmcloud.org/articleinfo/en.wikipedia.org/Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r">here</a>) attribute 41.4% of the article's authorship to you with 47.6% of edits (by number) attributed to you and 34% of added text attributed to you. You are the main author of thde current version of the article by quite a long way - the next biggest contributors by each of those 3 measures are attributed with 8%, 10% and 26% respectively. <a href="/wiki/User:DeCausa" title="User:DeCausa">DeCausa</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:DeCausa" title="User talk:DeCausa">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-DeCausa-20241104224800-Cltjames-20241104223000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:48, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DeCausa-20241104224800-Cltjames-20241104223000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DeCausa-20241104224800-Cltjames-20241104223000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20241104230300-DeCausa-20241104224800"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:DeCausa" title="User:DeCausa">DeCausa</a> ok, thanks for the stat check. Don't believe everything you read. I can confirm I found a complete article without references and restructured, just saying, I moved paragraphs which 'AI' suspected I wrote, but we all know AI isn't dependable for Wikipedia. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20241104230300-DeCausa-20241104224800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:03, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20241104230300-DeCausa-20241104224800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20241104230300-DeCausa-20241104224800"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></li></ul></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Place_of_death,_or_resting_place" data-mw-thread-id="h-Place_of_death,_or_resting_place-20240915144200"><span id="Place_of_death.2C_or_resting_place"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Place_of_death,_or_resting_place-20240915144200"></span>Place of death, or resting place<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Place_of_death,_or_resting_place-20240915144200"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Martinevans123-20240915144200-Place_of_death,_or_resting_place"></span>Should any entry appear in the infobox, with or without a footnote? The article says this: "<link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Tradition has it that he died and was buried possibly in the church of Saints Mael and Sulien at <a href="/wiki/Corwen" title="Corwen">Corwen</a> close to his home, or possibly on his estate in <a href="/wiki/Sycharth" title="Sycharth">Sycharth</a> or on the estates of his daughters' husbands: <a href="/wiki/Kentchurch" title="Kentchurch">Kentchurch</a> in south <a href="/wiki/Herefordshire" title="Herefordshire">Herefordshire</a> or <a href="/wiki/Monnington_on_Wye" title="Monnington on Wye">Monnington</a> in west Herefordshire.</q>" But the single (non-academic) source is <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/mid/3982755.stm">this one</a>, and this clearly says "Alex Gibbon's claims are disputed." Thanks. <a href="/wiki/User:Martinevans123" title="User:Martinevans123">Martinevans123</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Martinevans123" title="User talk:Martinevans123">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Martinevans123-20240915144200-Place_of_death,_or_resting_place" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:42, 15 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Martinevans123-20240915144200-Place_of_death,_or_resting_place"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Martinevans123-20240915144200-Place_of_death,_or_resting_place"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20240915152800-Martinevans123-20240915144200"></span>Yes I agree, the article addresses the confusion over Glyndwr's death place, therefore the infobox can explain there are suggested sites from different sources, despite one location seeming to be the most recognised oral tradition passed through generations of the same Scudamore family of Monnington Staddle. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20240915152800-Martinevans123-20240915144200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:28, 15 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20240915152800-Martinevans123-20240915144200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20240915152800-Martinevans123-20240915144200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Martinevans123-20240915154200-Cltjames-20240915152800"></span>Ok. Any suggestions as to what should actually appear in the infobox? It's meant to be only a summary. Thanks. <a href="/wiki/User:Martinevans123" title="User:Martinevans123">Martinevans123</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Martinevans123" title="User talk:Martinevans123">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Martinevans123-20240915154200-Cltjames-20240915152800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:42, 15 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Martinevans123-20240915154200-Cltjames-20240915152800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Martinevans123-20240915154200-Cltjames-20240915152800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20240915160400-Martinevans123-20240915154200"></span>I altered the text slightly and added your quote, please read and tell me if its ok or I'll comment vice versa, also I think adding it to the Death Date section works ok. Or alternatively, specify the Scudamore family source or his burial in Monnington Staddle, then add a text note about the confusion surrounding the burial location. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20240915160400-Martinevans123-20240915154200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:04, 15 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20240915160400-Martinevans123-20240915154200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20240915160400-Martinevans123-20240915154200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Martinevans123-20240915161400-Cltjames-20240915160400"></span>I moved the footnote to the Burial place field. Does that work better? Also made some small changes to the wording +links. Many thanks. <a href="/wiki/User:Martinevans123" title="User:Martinevans123">Martinevans123</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Martinevans123" title="User talk:Martinevans123">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Martinevans123-20240915161400-Cltjames-20240915160400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:14, 15 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Martinevans123-20240915161400-Cltjames-20240915160400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Martinevans123-20240915161400-Cltjames-20240915160400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20240915170500-Martinevans123-20240915161400"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Martinevans123" title="User:Martinevans123">Martinevans123</a> Yes, good, thanks. The infobox is complete now with an adequate description as to his burial location, and unclear works well. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20240915170500-Martinevans123-20240915161400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20240915170500-Martinevans123-20240915161400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20240915170500-Martinevans123-20240915161400"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Updating_lede,_and_fact_check" data-mw-thread-id="h-Updating_lede,_and_fact_check-20240917155400"><span id="Updating_lede.2C_and_fact_check"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Updating_lede,_and_fact_check-20240917155400"></span>Updating lede, and fact check<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Updating_lede,_and_fact_check-20240917155400"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20240917155400-Updating_lede,_and_fact_check"></span>@<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:2A02:8084:C542:A600:9C32:F5CA:F72:71A&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:2A02:8084:C542:A600:9C32:F5CA:F72:71A (page does not exist)">2a02:8084:c542:a600:9c32:f5ca:f72:71a</a>:</span> refuses to acknowledge the research conducted and work on the article over the past months regarding the additional text elaborating Glyndwr's ancestry. I updated the lede for 2 reasons. 1 it was outdated. 2 the lede was still too long after we had agreed to already shorten it. I trimmed the lede and updated the section considering the newly added sections involving Glyndwr's ancestry. Could we please find common ground on the 2 subjects mentioned, again being length of lede, and also addition of ancestry in lede. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20240917155400-Updating_lede,_and_fact_check" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:54, 17 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20240917155400-Updating_lede,_and_fact_check"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20240917155400-Updating_lede,_and_fact_check"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334-20240917162400-Cltjames-20240917155400"></span>I never edited anything regarding Glyndwr’s ancestry, that’s not the issue. The issue was how you completely changed the opening of the article and unnecessarily removed reliable information without coming here and getting consent from the talk page first. You also wrote that Owain Glyndwr was a descendent of King Edward I which is false. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334" title="Special:Contributions/2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334">2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334-20240917162400-Cltjames-20240917155400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:24, 17 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334-20240917162400-Cltjames-20240917155400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334-20240917162400-Cltjames-20240917155400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20240917164400-2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334-20240917162400"></span>An editor does not need consent to make a bold change to a page - even quite a major one. And we should never revert simply because someone made a big change. However, if you take issue with the content of the change for some reason, then we can discuss that. Per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ONUS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ONUS">onus</a>, if content is reverted <i>with reason</i> then the onus would be on the editor introducing the reverted text to gain a consensus for it. That's how we do it here. So, what are the specific concerns you have, please? <a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20240917164400-2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334-20240917162400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:44, 17 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20240917164400-2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334-20240917162400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20240917164400-2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334-20240917162400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334-20240917165500-Sirfurboy-20240917164400"></span>specific concerns are incorrect information such as the claim that Owain Glyndwr was a descendant of King Edward I, several punctual mistakes, and the removal of important context, information, and sources. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334" title="Special:Contributions/2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334">2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334-20240917165500-Sirfurboy-20240917164400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:55, 17 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334-20240917165500-Sirfurboy-20240917164400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334-20240917165500-Sirfurboy-20240917164400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20240917171400-2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334-20240917165500"></span>Okay so we can just fix punctuation mistakes. Could you be more specific about what removals you are objecting to, and why. On this issue of descent from Edward I, this has gone in the article body: <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1237805129">.mw-parser-output .talkquote{color:var(--color-base,#202122);background-color:#eaf8f4;border-left:3px solid #008560;padding:0 .8em;margin:0}.mw-parser-output .talkquote-by,.mw-parser-output .talkquote-source{margin-left:1.6em}.mw-parser-output .skin-vector-2022 .talkquote>:last-child{padding-bottom:0}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .talkquote{background-color:#0d261f}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .talkquote{background-color:#0d261f}}</style><blockquote class="talkquote"><p>He was also a descendant of the English <a href="/wiki/King_Edward_I_of_England" class="mw-redirect" title="King Edward I of England">King Edward I</a>, via his ancestors in Gwynedd.<sup id="cite_ref-davies12_1-0" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-davies12-1"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>1<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup><sup id="cite_ref-2" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-2"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>2<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup><sup id="cite_ref-Burke_3-0" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-Burke-3"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>3<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup><sup id="cite_ref-journal_4-0" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-journal-4"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>4<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup></p></blockquote></dd> <dd>Refs 3 and 4 there are not great. I don't have ref 1, although I do have other histories by these authors. I would be interested to know what they say exactly though, as I don't recall them saying this elsewhere. I do have library access to ref 2, and looking at page 45, I don't see the claim. I see discussion of a genealogy that purports to show his descent from King John, but the source does not say this is actually correct. What it says is <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237805129"><blockquote class="talkquote"><p>Versions of a text designed to show that Owain Glyndŵr was, through his mother, descended from Llywelyn ab Iorwerth and King John are found in Llanstephan 12, pp. 18–19 and 65–6 (s. xvimed) and Brogyntyn I. 15, pp. 382 and 391 (1593–6); these must derive from the common exemplar of those manuscripts, probably written by Ieuan Brechfa (cf. Table A.4.1.1).</p></blockquote> That "designed to show" is a suitable caution. Genealogies were appealed to in order to give legitimacy, but we should avoid being more strident on the matter than the source itself. In any case, I would describe this claim as dubious at this point. Does anyone have the text of Davies & Morgan (2009)? <a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20240917171400-2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334-20240917165500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:14, 17 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20240917171400-2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334-20240917165500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20240917171400-2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334-20240917165500"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20240917162500-Cltjames-20240917155400"></span>I added links and had to paraphrase the final paragraph of the lede, as the text was moved to legacy. I still feel the lede is too long, and perhaps the article too. The text in the article is available in <a href="/wiki/Glynd%C5%B5r_rebellion" title="Glyndŵr rebellion">Glyndŵr rebellion</a> and doesn't need to be duplicated in full in this article, which is a biography, not a story about a rebellion. So, can we please get opinions on the potential issue of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a> because of the age of the source explaining Glyndwr's ancestry in full. The problem is <a href="/wiki/Bernard_Burke" title="Bernard Burke">Bernard Burke</a> was the King of Arms geneologist and is considered the industey leader, hence <a href="/wiki/Burke%27s_peerage" class="mw-redirect" title="Burke's peerage">Burke's peerage</a>. Also if he were to get the ancestry of Glyndwr incorrect in the 19th century, then there was over 150 years for his mistakes to be corrected, so the author is a reliable source regarding Glyndwr's ancestry. It's just whether people are willing to accept it or not. Otherwise, too reiterate, lede too long, needs to update regarding ancestry, Glyndwr was the direct descendant of the 3 royal houses ( Aberffraw, Dinefwr, Mathrafal), and that is how he qualified as the Prince of Wales, because his ancestry, then I added Edward I, because it's been updated in the text, so why not the lede? Please comment. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20240917162500-Cltjames-20240917155400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:25, 17 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20240917162500-Cltjames-20240917155400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20240917162500-Cltjames-20240917155400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334-20240917164700-Cltjames-20240917162500"></span>The lead is a summarised description of his life, achievements, and fate. More advanced information is in the other sections below for readers. Regardless you still didn’t get consent here first for your edit which completely restructured large parts of the article. And lastly, yes Owain Glyndwr was a descendant of the 3 royal houses of Mathrafal, Dinefwr, and Aberffraw, however he was not a descendant of King Edward I, that shouldn’t be in the text. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334" title="Special:Contributions/2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334">2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334-20240917164700-Cltjames-20240917162500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:47, 17 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334-20240917164700-Cltjames-20240917162500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334-20240917164700-Cltjames-20240917162500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20240917171500-2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334-20240917164700"></span>@<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334 (page does not exist)">2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334</a> I don't know where you've been these past few months, look at the <a href="/wiki/Llywelyn_II" class="mw-redirect" title="Llywelyn II">Llywelyn II</a> talk page regarding Burke's geneology, we have accepted Edward I's ancestral connection, it is in the article, it is not misinformation, stop being biased and read the facts, again, update was added to text, not the lede, that is why it was added yesterday, if the text is updated, the lede should be to represent the text. Besides, the lede is too long and not relevant to a person, but more a rebellion. An edit war won't change that, nor will it change history. Read the facts and ask for a consensus regarding the including of Glyndwr's ancestry and lineage in this article, otherwise, leave the text alone. And please can we get a consensus about the inclusion of Glyndwr's ancestry into the lede..??? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20240917171500-2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334-20240917164700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:15, 17 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20240917171500-2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334-20240917164700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20240917171500-2A02:8084:C542:A600:E4E7:F126:BA01:8334-20240917164700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20240917180600-Cltjames-20240917171500"></span>I can't see any mention of Edward I or Glyndŵr's descent from him on <a href="/wiki/Talk:Llywelyn_ap_Gruffudd" title="Talk:Llywelyn ap Gruffudd">Talk:Llywelyn ap Gruffudd</a>. What am I missing? <a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20240917180600-Cltjames-20240917171500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:06, 17 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20240917180600-Cltjames-20240917171500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20240917180600-Cltjames-20240917171500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20240917182100-Sirfurboy-20240917180600"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy</a> we spoke about Catherine ferch Llywelyn, and <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:NetworkAuthority" title="User:NetworkAuthority">NetworkAuthority</a>:</span> made a bold inclusion, and with some editing the paragraph was added about ancestry confusion. I helped edit and found sources to confirm Llywelyn II's daughter being documented, and added it to the Glyndwr article, that is how Glyndwr was a descendant of Llywelyn II and Edward I, confirming the lineage section here in Glyndwr showing the connection to Gwynedd correctly but also adding some prose about the confusion between geneologist. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20240917182100-Sirfurboy-20240917180600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:21, 17 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20240917182100-Sirfurboy-20240917180600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20240917182100-Sirfurboy-20240917180600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20240917182800-Cltjames-20240917182100"></span>Do we have a source by any historians that say that Glyndŵr is so descended? <a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20240917182800-Cltjames-20240917182100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:28, 17 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20240917182800-Cltjames-20240917182100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20240917182800-Cltjames-20240917182100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20240917184000-Sirfurboy-20240917182800"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy</a> The problem is not really, Lloyd 1881 in this article does mention the marriage of Glyndwr's Dad to Tomos, but no further. Virtually no sources I could find connects Tomos to Eleanor, Countess of Bar. Despite the fact of the authority of <a href="/wiki/Norroy_and_Ulster_King_of_Arms" title="Norroy and Ulster King of Arms">Norroy and Ulster King of Arms</a> stating the legitimacy of Glyndwr's ancestry to Edward I, there isn't any websites or book directly addressing this issue that I could find. And, in the couple of books I have, and DWB, Llywelyn II has been ignored by modern Welsh scholars as Glyndwr's ancestor, and they revert to Gruffudd ap Cynan. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20240917184000-Sirfurboy-20240917182800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:40, 17 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20240917184000-Sirfurboy-20240917182800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20240917184000-Sirfurboy-20240917182800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20240917185000-Cltjames-20240917184000"></span>Then we shouldn't say it either. If we make this claim, it will be <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR">original research</a>. An encyclopaedic article needs to follow what the historians say. <a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20240917185000-Cltjames-20240917184000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:50, 17 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20240917185000-Cltjames-20240917184000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20240917185000-Cltjames-20240917184000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20240917190100-Sirfurboy-20240917185000"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy</a> Ok, strange situation. If it is deemed 'OR', but the contention is that the article could be missing key facts, then surely a note can be added explaining the geneological research of Bernard Burke in 1844 & 1876. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20240917190100-Sirfurboy-20240917185000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:01, 17 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20240917190100-Sirfurboy-20240917185000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20240917190100-Sirfurboy-20240917185000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20240917190600-Cltjames-20240917190100"></span>Look at the <a href="/wiki/Eleanor_of_England,_Countess_of_Bar" title="Eleanor of England, Countess of Bar">Eleanor of England, Countess of Bar</a> article for book references on the debate. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20240917190600-Cltjames-20240917190100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:06, 17 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20240917190600-Cltjames-20240917190100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20240917190600-Cltjames-20240917190100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20240917192300-Cltjames-20240917190600"></span>There is a world of difference between <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Eleanor is sometimes credited with a daughter named Eleanor (b. 1285), who married a Welshman named Llywelyn ap Owain and was an ancestress of Owain Glyndwr and Owen Tudor, but this claim is now considered dubious.</q> and <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">[Glyndŵr] was also a descendant of the English King Edward I, via his ancestors in Gwynedd</q>. <a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20240917192300-Cltjames-20240917190600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:23, 17 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20240917192300-Cltjames-20240917190600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20240917192300-Cltjames-20240917190600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20240917194000-Sirfurboy-20240917192300"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy</a> I went with the Burke PDF reference from 1876 showing the line of ancestors from Glyndwr via Llywelyn II to Edward I. And like I said, Burke cannot be brought into dispute, really, despite this debate. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20240917194000-Sirfurboy-20240917192300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:40, 17 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20240917194000-Sirfurboy-20240917192300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20240917194000-Sirfurboy-20240917192300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20240917211600-Cltjames-20240917194000"></span>Also, another source can be found in <a href="/wiki/Angharad_ferch_Llywelyn" title="Angharad ferch Llywelyn">Angharad ferch Llywelyn</a> (Kenneth Panton, <i>Historical Dictionary of the British Monarchy</i>, (Scarecrow Press, 2011), p. 173). Another modern book, which I haven't read, but I'm not doubting its authenticity in proving the ancestral link between Glyndwr and Edward I, but this time via Llywelyn the Great (Llywelyn I), not Llywelyn II. So, the references for the ancestral link exist as reliable sources. Now, the question posed today would be whether Glyndwr's ancestry should be mentioned in the lede or not?? Can we get a consensus, please? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20240917211600-Cltjames-20240917194000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:16, 17 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20240917211600-Cltjames-20240917194000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20240917211600-Cltjames-20240917194000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20240918184900-Cltjames-20240917211600"></span>Panton (2011) does indeed say <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237805129"><blockquote class="talkquote"><p>Eleanor (born in 1285) married Llewelyn ap Owain (a Welsh noble),</p></blockquote>whereas Connolly (2021) states,</dd> <dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237805129"><blockquote class="talkquote"><p>A possible third child, Eleanor, is said to have married Llywelyn ap Owen of Deheubarth; but her existence seems to be in question.<sup id="cite_ref-5" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-5"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>5<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup></p></blockquote> This needs rewriting. I'll make an edit to express the doubt. <a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20240918184900-Cltjames-20240917211600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:49, 18 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20240918184900-Cltjames-20240917211600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20240918184900-Cltjames-20240917211600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20240918204600-Sirfurboy-20240918184900"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy</a> Ok, thanks. It's a good addition that realistically explains the situation regarding the confusion about Glyndwr's royal ancestry. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20240918204600-Sirfurboy-20240918184900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:46, 18 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20240918204600-Sirfurboy-20240918184900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20240918204600-Sirfurboy-20240918184900"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1232521257">.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk{margin:auto 0;border:1px dashed var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:4px;padding-left:1em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk-title{font-weight:bold}</style><div class="reflist-talk"> <p class="reflist-talk-title">References</p> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1239543626">.mw-parser-output .reflist{margin-bottom:0.5em;list-style-type:decimal}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .reflist{font-size:90%}}.mw-parser-output .reflist .references{font-size:100%;margin-bottom:0;list-style-type:inherit}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-2{column-width:30em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-3{column-width:25em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns{margin-top:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns ol{margin-top:0}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns li{page-break-inside:avoid;break-inside:avoid-column}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-alpha{list-style-type:upper-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-roman{list-style-type:upper-roman}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-alpha{list-style-type:lower-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-greek{list-style-type:lower-greek}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-roman{list-style-type:lower-roman}</style><div class="reflist"> <div class="mw-references-wrap"><ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-davies12-1"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-davies12_1-0">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1238218222">.mw-parser-output cite.citation{font-style:inherit;word-wrap:break-word}.mw-parser-output .citation q{quotes:"\"""\"""'""'"}.mw-parser-output .citation:target{background-color:rgba(0,127,255,0.133)}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-free.id-lock-free a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Lock-green.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited.id-lock-limited a,.mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration.id-lock-registration a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Lock-gray-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription.id-lock-subscription a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Lock-red-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Wikisource-logo.svg")right 0.1em center/12px no-repeat}body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-free a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background-size:contain;padding:0 1em 0 0}.mw-parser-output .cs1-code{color:inherit;background:inherit;border:none;padding:inherit}.mw-parser-output .cs1-hidden-error{display:none;color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-visible-error{color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{display:none;color:#085;margin-left:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-left{padding-left:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-right{padding-right:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .citation .mw-selflink{font-weight:inherit}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .cs1-format{font-size:95%}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}</style><cite id="CITEREFDaviesMorgan2009" class="citation book cs1">Davies, R. R.; Morgan, Gerald (2009). <i>Owain Glyn Dŵr: Prince of Wales</i>. Ceredigion: Y Lolfa. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-1-84771-127-4" title="Special:BookSources/978-1-84771-127-4"><bdi>978-1-84771-127-4</bdi></a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Owain+Glyn+D%C5%B5r%3A+Prince+of+Wales&rft.place=Ceredigion&rft.pub=Y+Lolfa&rft.date=2009&rft.isbn=978-1-84771-127-4&rft.aulast=Davies&rft.aufirst=R.+R.&rft.au=Morgan%2C+Gerald&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AOwain+Glynd%C5%B5r" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-2"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-2">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">Guy, Ben: 'Medieval Welsh Genealogy'; pp. 45, 300; The Boydell Press, 2020.</span> </li> <li id="cite_note-Burke-3"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-Burke_3-0">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFBurke1876" class="citation book cs1"><a href="/wiki/Bernard_Burke" title="Bernard Burke">Burke, Bernard</a> (1876). <a class="external text" href="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/The_Royal_Families_of_England%2C_Scotland%2C_and_Wales_%28IA_royalfamiliesofe01burk_1%29.pdf"><i>The Royal Families of England, Scotland</i></a> <span class="cs1-format">(PDF)</span>. <a href="/wiki/Pall_Mall,_London" title="Pall Mall, London">Pall Mall, London</a>: Harrison. pp. 7, 51, 97.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=The+Royal+Families+of+England%2C+Scotland&rft.place=Pall+Mall%2C+London&rft.pages=7%2C+51%2C+97&rft.pub=Harrison&rft.date=1876&rft.aulast=Burke&rft.aufirst=Bernard&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F7%2F72%2FThe_Royal_Families_of_England%252C_Scotland%252C_and_Wales_%2528IA_royalfamiliesofe01burk_1%2529.pdf&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AOwain+Glynd%C5%B5r" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-journal-4"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-journal_4-0">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite class="citation web cs1"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://journals.library.wales/view/1386666/1396091/159#?xywh=-435%2C362%2C3254%2C1759">"Welsh Journals – Transactions of the Honourable Society of Cymmrodorion, 1918–1919, 1920"</a>. <i>journals.library.wales</i>. p. 138<span class="reference-accessdate">. Retrieved <span class="nowrap">31 August</span> 2024</span>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=unknown&rft.jtitle=journals.library.wales&rft.atitle=Welsh+Journals+%E2%80%93+Transactions+of+the+Honourable+Society+of+Cymmrodorion%2C+1918%E2%80%931919%2C+1920&rft.pages=138&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fjournals.library.wales%2Fview%2F1386666%2F1396091%2F159%23%3Fxywh%3D-435%252C362%252C3254%252C1759&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AOwain+Glynd%C5%B5r" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-5"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-5">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFConnolly2021" class="citation book cs1">Connolly, Sharron Bennett (2021). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://books.google.com/books?id=Hyo1EAAAQBAJ&pg=PA205"><i>Defenders of the Norman Crown : Rise and Fall of the Warenne Earls of Surrey</i></a>. Pen & Sword History. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/9781526745323" title="Special:BookSources/9781526745323"><bdi>9781526745323</bdi></a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Defenders+of+the+Norman+Crown+%3A+Rise+and+Fall+of+the+Warenne+Earls+of+Surrey&rft.pub=Pen+%26+Sword+History&rft.date=2021&rft.isbn=9781526745323&rft.aulast=Connolly&rft.aufirst=Sharron+Bennett&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.com%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DHyo1EAAAQBAJ%26pg%3DPA205&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AOwain+Glynd%C5%B5r" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> </ol></div></div> </div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Marriage_at_St_Chad's" data-mw-thread-id="h-Marriage_at_St_Chad's-20241104091000"><span id="Marriage_at_St_Chad.27s"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Marriage_at_St_Chad's-20241104091000"></span>Marriage at St Chad's<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Marriage_at_St_Chad's-20241104091000"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20241104091000-Marriage_at_St_Chad's"></span> The text says: <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237805129"></p><blockquote class="talkquote"><p>their marriage took place 1383 in St Chad's Church, Hanmer in north-east Wales.<sup id="cite_ref-6" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-6"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>1<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup><sup id="cite_ref-7" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-7"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>2<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> However they may have married at an earlier date in the late 1370s.<sup id="cite_ref-FOOTNOTEDaviesMorgan200914–16_8-0" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-FOOTNOTEDaviesMorgan200914–16-8"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>3<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup></p></blockquote> <p>Now there is a sense in which St Chad's is the obvious location for the marriage. He would have married at Margaret Hanmer's parish, and this would be the Hanmer parish church. Yet the sourcing is not good. The National Churches Trust and the Glyndŵr society do not state their sources. The society is a tiny charity with 2 trustees and annual turnover of £2,000.<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://register-of-charities.charitycommission.gov.uk/en/charity-search/-/charity-details/3956811/charity-overview">[1]</a> No better than self publishing without stated sources. I did find a source that states this <sup id="cite_ref-9" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-9"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>4<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> but it is Terry Breverton, and so see this discussion <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Glynd%C5%B5r_rebellion#Breverton_does_not_seem_to_be_a_good_source">[2]</a>. Breverton is not a great source. And then there is this very uncertain phrasing anyway. If we don't know when he was married, we should not give a date and then contradict the information. Can we do better or should this just come out? </p> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1232521257"><div class="reflist-talk"> <p class="reflist-talk-title">References</p> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239543626"><div class="reflist"> <div class="mw-references-wrap"><ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-6"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-6">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite class="citation web cs1"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.nationalchurchestrust.org/church/hanmer-st-chad-hanmer">"Hanmer St. Chad"</a>. <i>nationalchurchestrust.org</i><span class="reference-accessdate">. Retrieved <span class="nowrap">17 January</span> 2024</span>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=unknown&rft.jtitle=nationalchurchestrust.org&rft.atitle=Hanmer+St.+Chad&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nationalchurchestrust.org%2Fchurch%2Fhanmer-st-chad-hanmer&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AOwain+Glynd%C5%B5r" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-7"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-7">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite class="citation web cs1"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.owain-glyndwr.wales/family_details.html">"Family details"</a>. <i>owain-glyndwr.wales</i>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=unknown&rft.jtitle=owain-glyndwr.wales&rft.atitle=Family+details&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.owain-glyndwr.wales%2Ffamily_details.html&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AOwain+Glynd%C5%B5r" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-FOOTNOTEDaviesMorgan200914–16-8"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEDaviesMorgan200914–16_8-0">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><a href="#CITEREFDaviesMorgan2009">Davies & Morgan 2009</a>, pp. 14–16.</span> </li> <li id="cite_note-9"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-9">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFBreverton2009" class="citation book cs1">Breverton, Terry (15 May 2009). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Owain_Glyndwr/8XGoAwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&printsec=frontcover"><i>Owain Glyndwr: The Story of the Last Prince of Wales</i></a>. Amberley Publishing Limited. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-1-4456-0876-1" title="Special:BookSources/978-1-4456-0876-1"><bdi>978-1-4456-0876-1</bdi></a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Owain+Glyndwr%3A+The+Story+of+the+Last+Prince+of+Wales&rft.pub=Amberley+Publishing+Limited&rft.date=2009-05-15&rft.isbn=978-1-4456-0876-1&rft.aulast=Breverton&rft.aufirst=Terry&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.co.uk%2Fbooks%2Fedition%2FOwain_Glyndwr%2F8XGoAwAAQBAJ%3Fhl%3Den%26gbpv%3D1%26printsec%3Dfrontcover&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AOwain+Glynd%C5%B5r" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> </ol></div></div> </div> <p><a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20241104091000-Marriage_at_St_Chad's" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:10, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20241104091000-Marriage_at_St_Chad's"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20241104091000-Marriage_at_St_Chad's"></span> </p><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20241104093000-Sirfurboy-20241104091000"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy</a> I added the church website and Owain Glyndwr website references, but I also added the sentence explaining the uncertainty of the marriage anytime during the 1370s. The book doesn't specify, and like you said, the websites don't show their sources. Personally, I believe the websites explaining St. Chad, but I agree that a reliable source is needed. Maybe email the church or website asking for sources ? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20241104093000-Sirfurboy-20241104091000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:30, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20241104093000-Sirfurboy-20241104091000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20241104093000-Sirfurboy-20241104091000"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Canu_Gwerin" data-mw-thread-id="h-Canu_Gwerin-20241104103500"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Canu_Gwerin-20241104103500"></span><i>Canu Gwerin</i><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Canu_Gwerin-20241104103500"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><a href="/wiki/User:Martinevans123" title="User:Martinevans123"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20241104103500-Canu_Gwerin"></span>Martinevans123</a> I deleted an unsourced line earlier and I see you have placed it back, amended and with a source here:<link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237805129"></p><blockquote class="talkquote"><p>During the celebration of the 600th anniversary of Glyndŵr's uprising, Myrddin ap Dafydd wrote a fourth version adding five verses to the original, entitled 'Mawl yr Ehedydd' (The Lark's Eulogy).<sup id="cite_ref-10" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-10"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>1<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup></p></blockquote><p> The first problem is verifiability. Myrddin ap Dafydd is a prolific author but I cannot find that title in any list of his works. E.g <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://openlibrary.org/authors/OL3533566A/Myrddin_ap_Dafydd">[3]</a> and <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.amazon.co.uk/stores/Myrddin-ap-Dafydd/author/B001JPC7KQ?">[4]</a>. However I suspect that the work exists. But when I removed the line, I also considered whether the information was <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DUE">WP:DUE</a>. Someone added some new verses to an old poem. Ok, that happens a lot. Did anyone take any notice? Have these new verses become an important part of the legacy of the page subject? I think <i>Canu Gwerin</i> itself would be the primary source - Myrddin ap Dafydd's published work. What we would need is some secondary source that shows why this deserves a mention at all. <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1232521257"></p><div class="reflist-talk"> <p class="reflist-talk-title">References</p> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239543626"><div class="reflist"> <div class="mw-references-wrap"><ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-10"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-10">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">Myrddin ap Dafydd (2004) <i>Canu Gwerin</i> 27:22-5.</span> </li> </ol></div></div> </div> <p><a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20241104103500-Canu_Gwerin" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:35, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20241104103500-Canu_Gwerin"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20241104103500-Canu_Gwerin"></span> </p><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Martinevans123-20241104103900-Sirfurboy-20241104103500"></span>Oh, I see. You think it may also be <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:UNDUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:UNDUE">WP:UNDUE</a>. I assumed you were just looking for a source. I agree, we probably need some secondary source(s). <a href="/wiki/User:Martinevans123" title="User:Martinevans123">Martinevans123</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Martinevans123" title="User talk:Martinevans123">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Martinevans123-20241104103900-Sirfurboy-20241104103500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:39, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Martinevans123-20241104103900-Sirfurboy-20241104103500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Martinevans123-20241104103900-Sirfurboy-20241104103500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20241104214600-Martinevans123-20241104103900"></span>Yep, I should have said it was unsourced <i>and</i> undue. I've removed it again now. Hope that's ok. <a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20241104214600-Martinevans123-20241104103900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:46, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20241104214600-Martinevans123-20241104103900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20241104214600-Martinevans123-20241104103900"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Copyvio_/_close_paraphrase" data-mw-thread-id="h-Copyvio_/_close_paraphrase-20241104222100"><span id="Copyvio_.2F_close_paraphrase"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Copyvio_/_close_paraphrase-20241104222100"></span>Copyvio / close paraphrase<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Copyvio_/_close_paraphrase-20241104222100"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20241104222100-Copyvio_/_close_paraphrase"></span>This report shows 42.2% similarity with a BBC source <a class="external autonumber" href="https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&oldid=1255422068&action=compare&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbc.co.uk%2F1%2Fhi%2Fwales%2Fmid%2F3982755.stm">[5]</a>. There were some others flagged up with lesser similarity but all those look okay. It is quoted material being flagged up. Even that article is largely similar on quote material, but I think it is a violation because the arrangement of the quoted material is so similar.</li></ul> <p><a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20241104222100-Copyvio_/_close_paraphrase" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:21, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20241104222100-Copyvio_/_close_paraphrase"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20241104222100-Copyvio_/_close_paraphrase"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20241104222300-Sirfurboy-20241104222100"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy</a> I saw that, it's only a few sentences that need paraphrasing. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20241104222300-Sirfurboy-20241104222100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:23, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20241104222300-Sirfurboy-20241104222100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20241104222300-Sirfurboy-20241104222100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20241110194800-Cltjames-20241104222300"></span>There is also apparently 90.8% similarity with this one <a class="external autonumber" href="https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&oldid=1256562752&action=compare&url=https%3A%2F%2Fgw.geneanet.org%2Flard%3Flang%3Den%26n%3Dap%2Bgruffydd%26p%3Dowain%2Bglyndwr">[6]</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a>, but I strongly suspect, looking at what they have, that they used Wikipedia text. (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20241110194800-Cltjames-20241104222300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:48, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20241110194800-Cltjames-20241104222300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20241110194800-Cltjames-20241104222300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20241110231700-Sirfurboy-20241110194800"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy</a> websites such as geni.com do copy and paste text directly from Wikipedia. <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:DeCausa" title="User:DeCausa">DeCausa</a>:</span> you can see the article still resembles 90% of what it was time before, only like I said, I restructured and AI thought I added the paragraphs that I simply moved. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20241110231700-Sirfurboy-20241110194800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:17, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20241110231700-Sirfurboy-20241110194800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20241110231700-Sirfurboy-20241110194800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20241111092000-Cltjames-20241110231700"></span>Yes. my conclusion is that they copied from us. They even copied the headings and didn't format them. Can't find the exact version copied though, but going back in the page hstory a few years shows our wording closer to theirs. I am satisfied that our wording evolved from Wikipedia editor work. It appears that some of their material came from <a href="/wiki/Welsh_Revolt" class="mw-redirect" title="Welsh Revolt">Welsh Revolt</a> too. Likewise the first copyvio is now largely resolved, showing only this passage: <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237805129"><blockquote class="talkquote"><p>"Four years ago we visited a direct descendant of Glyndŵr, a John Skidmore, at Kentchurch Court, near Abergavenny. He took us to Mornington Straddle in Herefordshire, where one of Glyndŵr's daughters, Alice, lived. Mr. Skidmore told us that he (Glyndŵr) spent his last days there and eventually died there... It was a family secret for 600 years, and even Mr Skidmore's mother, who died shortly before we visited, refused to reveal the secret. There's even a mound where he is believed to be buried at Mornington Straddle."</p></blockquote> Which is an attributed quotation, cited to the source that is being flagged. So this is not a copyvio now. If you want to submit this for good article assessment, you should probably point the reviewer to this talk section. <a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20241111092000-Cltjames-20241110231700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:20, 11 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20241111092000-Cltjames-20241110231700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20241111092000-Cltjames-20241110231700"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Pubs" data-mw-thread-id="h-Pubs-20241105111000"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Pubs-20241105111000"></span>Pubs<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Pubs-20241105111000"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Martinevans123-20241105111000-Pubs"></span>Provided there are secondary sources available, I don't see why pubs named after Owain Glyndŵr shouldn't be mentioned, perhaps in a single sentence. We have an entire artcile on <a href="/wiki/List_of_things_named_after_Donald_Trump" title="List of things named after Donald Trump">List of things named after Donald Trump</a> many of which do not have an article? <a href="/wiki/User:Martinevans123" title="User:Martinevans123">Martinevans123</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Martinevans123" title="User talk:Martinevans123">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Martinevans123-20241105111000-Pubs" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:10, 5 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Martinevans123-20241105111000-Pubs"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Martinevans123-20241105111000-Pubs"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20241105112600-Martinevans123-20241105111000"></span>My worry is that there is a selection bias. We had the Cardiff pub, but not the one in Mold or Llanddona or Gwernmynydd etc. (and who knows how many there are outside Wales). When we have list articles it is common to have the inclusion criterion that an entry must have an article to show it is notable for a mention. If there were a list of pubs by this name we could refer to that, and say that there are a number of pubs, (such as the key ones in the article). But I worry that this list of namesakes is focussed on the things editors know about rather than any objective notability criteria. Having said that, I am not at all opposed to some form of words that demonstrates the frequent namimg of pubs for him, as a demonstration of his penetration in popular consciousness. <a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20241105112600-Martinevans123-20241105111000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:26, 5 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20241105112600-Martinevans123-20241105111000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20241105112600-Martinevans123-20241105111000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Martinevans123-20241105113200-Sirfurboy-20241105112600"></span>Well that inclusion criterion obviously doesn't apply to Donald Trump! I'd be very surprised to see any pubs named after Glyndŵr outside Wales. Happy to hear the views from other editors on this topic. Thanks. <a href="/wiki/User:Martinevans123" title="User:Martinevans123">Martinevans123</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Martinevans123" title="User talk:Martinevans123">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Martinevans123-20241105113200-Sirfurboy-20241105112600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:32, 5 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Martinevans123-20241105113200-Sirfurboy-20241105112600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Martinevans123-20241105113200-Sirfurboy-20241105112600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20241105130100-Martinevans123-20241105113200"></span>One in Shrewsbury: <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://closedpubs.blogspot.com/2010/12/owen-glendower.html">[7]</a>, another in London <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://londonwiki.co.uk/LondonPubs/StBart/OwenGlendower.shtml">[8]</a>. As a character in a Shakespeare play, I expect there are many more. <a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20241105130100-Martinevans123-20241105113200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:01, 5 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20241105130100-Martinevans123-20241105113200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20241105130100-Martinevans123-20241105113200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Martinevans123-20241105131500-Sirfurboy-20241105130100"></span>Well there was one in Shrewsbury, anyway. Finding "multiple sources referencing the connection with a specific pub in-depth" looks a bit unlikely. <a href="/wiki/User:Martinevans123" title="User:Martinevans123">Martinevans123</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Martinevans123" title="User talk:Martinevans123">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Martinevans123-20241105131500-Sirfurboy-20241105130100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:15, 5 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Martinevans123-20241105131500-Sirfurboy-20241105130100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Martinevans123-20241105131500-Sirfurboy-20241105130100"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20241105115400-Sirfurboy-20241105112600"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy</a> speaking of selection, I thought <a href="/wiki/RGC_1404" title="RGC 1404">RGC 1404</a> was a good inclusion to show the determination of Glyndwr's legacy in modern times because of the comparisons between sport and war. Why not keep the rugby team and even expand the topic? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20241105115400-Sirfurboy-20241105112600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:54, 5 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20241105115400-Sirfurboy-20241105112600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20241105115400-Sirfurboy-20241105112600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20241105125700-Cltjames-20241105115400"></span>RGC 1404 was in the namesakes section, which contained several entries that were clearly not namesakes. I took it out from there. I have now placed it back in the legacy section instead. I would oppose expansion. The section is talking about the legacy of Glyndŵr, and not about rugby. We need to be wary of this: <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://xkcd.com/446/">XKCD 446 - In popular culture</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20241105125700-Cltjames-20241105115400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:57, 5 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20241105125700-Cltjames-20241105115400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20241105125700-Cltjames-20241105115400"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20241109071900-Sirfurboy-20241105112600"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy</a> I added one pub from the 2009 book and another half dozen references from the same book. Which leaves the article with 10 {{cn & 5 {{pn. But good job on the tidyup. It's almost ready for submission for a GA. What do you think, delete text, or try and find the sourced pages ? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20241109071900-Sirfurboy-20241105112600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:19, 9 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20241109071900-Sirfurboy-20241105112600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20241109071900-Sirfurboy-20241105112600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20241109101200-Cltjames-20241109071900"></span>The refs are a consistent style now, which is one job. As you say, plenty of citations needed still. The copyvio still needs addressing. The Welsh revolt section may be overly detailed as there is a main article for that. I would like better sourcing of the genealogy. The "Gwynedd Ancestry Confusion" section needs looking at. We might also want to expand the modern legacy if there are good secondary sources about how the myth of the man has been adopted and co-opted. I also have just received a library copy of Davies & Morgan that I need to read as it is used extensively in the article. Still plenty to do. Btw, could you put <nowiki> tags around your comments where you write {{cn as it messes up talk page pretty printing otherwise. <a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20241109101200-Cltjames-20241109071900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:12, 9 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20241109101200-Cltjames-20241109071900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20241109101200-Cltjames-20241109071900"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DankJae-20241105122600-Martinevans123-20241105111000"></span>Trump has an article on the topic itself, so the concept of naming things after him is (apparently) notable itself. It is merely a subsection here, that has to be <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DUEWEIGHT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DUEWEIGHT">WP:DUEWEIGHT</a>, so best leave to the most notable (with an article) or generalise to the number of pubs named after Glyndŵr, or it may become increasingly long without any limits. If we specifically include one non-notable pub we should include all of them.</dd> <dd>The club’s connection is more indirect (referencing an event) but probably enough.</dd> <dd>Also <a href="/wiki/Buildings_associated_with_Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r" title="Buildings associated with Owain Glyndŵr">Buildings associated with Owain Glyndŵr</a> was spun off for some reason (?) a while ago, maybe that article can be reformed to also include legacy? Unless that was an undiscussed split from <a href="/wiki/Architecture_of_Wales" title="Architecture of Wales">AoW</a>. <b><a href="/wiki/User:DankJae" title="User:DankJae"><span style="color: black">Dank</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:DankJae" title="User talk:DankJae"><span style="color: red">Jae</span></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-DankJae-20241105122600-Martinevans123-20241105111000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:26, 5 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DankJae-20241105122600-Martinevans123-20241105111000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DankJae-20241105122600-Martinevans123-20241105111000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DankJae-20241105123700-DankJae-20241105122600"></span>Although if there are sources listing the pubs, a sentence like "many pubs in Wales have been named after Glyndŵr" etc would be fine. But not specifically mention them unless an article for them is made or multiple sources reference the connection with a specific pub in-depth. The Cardiff source was more about the postbox. <b><a href="/wiki/User:DankJae" title="User:DankJae"><span style="color: black">Dank</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:DankJae" title="User talk:DankJae"><span style="color: red">Jae</span></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-DankJae-20241105123700-DankJae-20241105122600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:37, 5 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DankJae-20241105123700-DankJae-20241105122600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DankJae-20241105123700-DankJae-20241105122600"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Gold_dragon" data-mw-thread-id="h-Gold_dragon-20241106171800"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Gold_dragon-20241106171800"></span>Gold dragon<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Gold_dragon-20241106171800"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20241106171800-Gold_dragon"></span><figure class="mw-default-size" typeof="mw:File/Thumb"><a href="/wiki/File:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r%27s_Privy_seal_impression_(gold_dragon_and_lion).jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r%27s_Privy_seal_impression_%28gold_dragon_and_lion%29.jpg/220px-Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r%27s_Privy_seal_impression_%28gold_dragon_and_lion%29.jpg" decoding="async" width="220" height="219" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r%27s_Privy_seal_impression_%28gold_dragon_and_lion%29.jpg/330px-Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r%27s_Privy_seal_impression_%28gold_dragon_and_lion%29.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r%27s_Privy_seal_impression_%28gold_dragon_and_lion%29.jpg/440px-Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r%27s_Privy_seal_impression_%28gold_dragon_and_lion%29.jpg 2x" data-file-width="1212" data-file-height="1204"/></a><figcaption>Owain Glyndŵr's Privy seal impression (gold dragon and lion)</figcaption></figure> <p>The image of a gold dragon on this page is not of a dragon at all. That image is a wyvern. Dragons have legs fore and aft - four legs in all. And on Glyndŵr's privy seal, the dragon was drawn with four legs (or at least, side on with front and back legs). So that image is inaccurate. Is there something better? If not, it should probably come out. <a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20241106171800-Gold_dragon" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:18, 6 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20241106171800-Gold_dragon"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20241106171800-Gold_dragon"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20241106173300-Sirfurboy-20241106171800"></span>Nevermind. I worked round it by using the privy seal image instead. That is clearly an emblem. <a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20241106173300-Sirfurboy-20241106171800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:33, 6 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20241106173300-Sirfurboy-20241106171800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20241106173300-Sirfurboy-20241106171800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Hogyncymru-20241126153800-Sirfurboy-20241106173300"></span>It seems a few people are very mistaken to the dragon image, in the edit, someone argued that: "it was a dragon not a wyvern", but as you can see in the seal, it is very much a wyvern, but yes, it was/is often referred to as a dragon despite it being a wyvern, in the case of this article and everything related to Owain Glyndŵr, we should always assume that a wyvern and a dragon means the same thing (I know.. it's not ideal, but alas, this is an error we need to overcome). Also the flag has been re-added is a faithful reproduction of what was used, and if someone argues that there are no images of the ddraig aur (as a flag) and it may be inaccurate, well the modern dragon we wave today is very different to what Henry VII flew on Bosworth, with even the pizzle missing (even though there are plenty of examples from Henry's rule of the dragon having that male addition in many carvings and painting/illustrations. What I would like here (if the image is removed again) is for you to justify why a modern image is not sufficient when wiki is full of modern digital flags that are very different from the originals, the whole reason wiki exists is to paint a picture of the past, to show as much evidence as possible and to show if an image is original or not. <a href="/wiki/User:Hogyncymru" title="User:Hogyncymru">Hogyncymru</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hogyncymru" title="User talk:Hogyncymru">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Hogyncymru-20241126153800-Sirfurboy-20241106173300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:38, 26 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Hogyncymru-20241126153800-Sirfurboy-20241106173300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Hogyncymru-20241126153800-Sirfurboy-20241106173300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20241126155100-Hogyncymru-20241126153800"></span>I understand that as the creator of the image you would like to see it included in the article, but as you can actually see, there is a difference between your representation and the one on the seal. The dragon on the seal clearly shows a fore leg and an aft leg. It is in profile, so two legs (one fore and aft) is the usual representation of a four legged creature (c.f. the two legs of the lion on the same seal). Yours is a Wyvern with two aft legs. As the creator, perhaps you could update to more accurately represent what is on the seal - although it is only supposition that this is what was on Glyndŵr's banner, so my preference would be to use the actual seal image and not an artist's representation of what may or may not have been on the actual flag. That is a curious form of artistic original research. <a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20241126155100-Hogyncymru-20241126153800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:51, 26 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20241126155100-Hogyncymru-20241126153800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20241126155100-Hogyncymru-20241126153800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Hogyncymru-20241126160000-Sirfurboy-20241126155100"></span>I don't really care if I made the image or not, the reason I did so in the beginning was because another version existed which was very inaccurate (4 legs), also if you're worried about which leg goes where, look at the other seal where the dragon is mounted on owain's crown and horse head, both legs are on the ground (no leg raised), I feel this is of minimal issue, if you have an issue with it, just mark it as (modern image), that's it. <a href="/wiki/User:Hogyncymru" title="User:Hogyncymru">Hogyncymru</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hogyncymru" title="User talk:Hogyncymru">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Hogyncymru-20241126160000-Sirfurboy-20241126155100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:00, 26 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Hogyncymru-20241126160000-Sirfurboy-20241126155100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Hogyncymru-20241126160000-Sirfurboy-20241126155100"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20241126161600-Gold_dragon"></span><figure class="mw-default-size" typeof="mw:File/Thumb"><a href="/wiki/File:Seal_impression_-_Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r_Great_Seal_(Horseback).jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Seal_impression_-_Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r_Great_Seal_%28Horseback%29.jpg/220px-Seal_impression_-_Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r_Great_Seal_%28Horseback%29.jpg" decoding="async" width="220" height="230" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Seal_impression_-_Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r_Great_Seal_%28Horseback%29.jpg/330px-Seal_impression_-_Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r_Great_Seal_%28Horseback%29.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Seal_impression_-_Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r_Great_Seal_%28Horseback%29.jpg/440px-Seal_impression_-_Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r_Great_Seal_%28Horseback%29.jpg 2x" data-file-width="1724" data-file-height="1800"/></a><figcaption>Owain Glyndŵr on horseback</figcaption></figure> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>You mean this image? I am not convinced I can make out any legs in that image, but you are ignoring the point: in constructing an artist's impression of Glyndŵr's banner, you have gone beyond the sources. It is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR">WP:OR</a>. The seal is the best image because we can presume that the banner was based on the seal, but we really don't know. Has anyone other than you attempted to draw the gold dragon? Is there a source we can refer to that at least shows a representation of it? I don't think we should be using that image without better evidence. It is too speculative. <a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20241126161600-Gold_dragon" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:16, 26 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20241126161600-Gold_dragon"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20241126161600-Gold_dragon"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Hogyncymru-20241126163800-Sirfurboy-20241126161600"></span>Again, the modern Welsh flag is speculative, see how totally different it is to the original, if you're going to have this argument, I suggest you go through the entirety of wikipedia and remove every single one because they are not correct.. but of course, you won't do this because it's ridiculous and time consuming, just mark it as a modern representation if you have an issue with it, I feel you're making a mountain out of a molehill here.</dd> <dd><figure class="mw-default-size" typeof="mw:File/Thumb"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Wales.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Flag_of_Wales.svg/220px-Flag_of_Wales.svg.png" decoding="async" width="220" height="132" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Flag_of_Wales.svg/330px-Flag_of_Wales.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Flag_of_Wales.svg/440px-Flag_of_Wales.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="800" data-file-height="480"/></a><figcaption>Flag of Wales with Dragon</figcaption></figure></dd> <dd><figure class="mw-default-size" typeof="mw:File/Thumb"><a href="/wiki/File:TudorCoatOfArms_MoorhayesCullompton_TivertonMuseum_Devon.PNG" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/TudorCoatOfArms_MoorhayesCullompton_TivertonMuseum_Devon.PNG/220px-TudorCoatOfArms_MoorhayesCullompton_TivertonMuseum_Devon.PNG" decoding="async" width="220" height="204" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/TudorCoatOfArms_MoorhayesCullompton_TivertonMuseum_Devon.PNG/330px-TudorCoatOfArms_MoorhayesCullompton_TivertonMuseum_Devon.PNG 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/TudorCoatOfArms_MoorhayesCullompton_TivertonMuseum_Devon.PNG/440px-TudorCoatOfArms_MoorhayesCullompton_TivertonMuseum_Devon.PNG 2x" data-file-width="1888" data-file-height="1747"/></a><figcaption>TudorCoatOfArms MoorhayesCullompton TivertonMuseum Devon</figcaption></figure> <a href="/wiki/User:Hogyncymru" title="User:Hogyncymru">Hogyncymru</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hogyncymru" title="User talk:Hogyncymru">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Hogyncymru-20241126163800-Sirfurboy-20241126161600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:38, 26 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Hogyncymru-20241126163800-Sirfurboy-20241126161600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Hogyncymru-20241126163800-Sirfurboy-20241126161600"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Hogyncymru-20241126164600-Sirfurboy-20241126161600"></span>there we go, added 'modern image' under the image, we can now lay this issue to bed <a href="/wiki/User:Hogyncymru" title="User:Hogyncymru">Hogyncymru</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hogyncymru" title="User talk:Hogyncymru">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Hogyncymru-20241126164600-Sirfurboy-20241126161600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:46, 26 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Hogyncymru-20241126164600-Sirfurboy-20241126161600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Hogyncymru-20241126164600-Sirfurboy-20241126161600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20241126165500-Hogyncymru-20241126164600"></span>We are talking about this article - a history article. The modern Welsh flag has no place on this article, and is not included. Neither is there a place on this article for a modern speculative image of what <i>may</i> have been on Glyndŵr's banner on at least one occasion. It remains <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR">WP:OR</a> and should not be there. <a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20241126165500-Hogyncymru-20241126164600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:55, 26 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20241126165500-Hogyncymru-20241126164600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20241126165500-Hogyncymru-20241126164600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Hogyncymru-20241126170600-Sirfurboy-20241126165500"></span>It's not original research though, the evidence is there; Adam of usk described it as being gold (yellow), and there's an image of the dragon on his seals, so I fail to see how a flag that is similar to the original is original research, perhaps it's 20% inaccurate, but so are most flags used on wikipedia, cut me a break here, the image has been updated to reflect that it's modern, that's more than what other editors have done when their flags are terribly inaccurate. <a href="/wiki/User:Hogyncymru" title="User:Hogyncymru">Hogyncymru</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hogyncymru" title="User talk:Hogyncymru">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Hogyncymru-20241126170600-Sirfurboy-20241126165500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:06, 26 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Hogyncymru-20241126170600-Sirfurboy-20241126165500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Hogyncymru-20241126170600-Sirfurboy-20241126165500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20241127185600-Hogyncymru-20241126170600"></span>To be clear, I already did cut you a break in that I did not revert your edit. Neither did I revert the addition at <a href="/wiki/Welsh_Dragon" title="Welsh Dragon">Welsh Dragon</a>. But I still do not think this is a good image for a page about Glyndŵr because the image is speculative. We do not know what the dragon looked like on Glyndŵr's banner, and we have only one source saying it was there at all. Let's see if any other editors have a view. <a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20241127185600-Hogyncymru-20241126170600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:56, 27 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20241127185600-Hogyncymru-20241126170600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20241127185600-Hogyncymru-20241126170600"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DankJae-20241127193500-Hogyncymru-20241126170600"></span>Is there any sources clarifying any of this? If we're talking about <a href="/wiki/File:Y_Draig_Aur_Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r.jpg" title="File:Y Draig Aur Owain Glyndŵr.jpg">File:Y Draig Aur Owain Glyndŵr.jpg</a>, the current citations here lack any visuals and just state "gold(en) dragon" on white. So if it actually means a wyvern or not, without a (clarifying) source it is just a custom user-generated flag (OR) that is best to be removed when in doubt.</dd> <dd>Is there a suggestion to add the modern flag here? <a href="/wiki/MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE">Why?</a> Do sources state the modern flag as a modern version of the banner? If not, then no as then it is just an editor's conclusion (OR).</dd> <dd>If other parts of Wikipedia are "inaccurate", it doesn't justify making it more so. <b><a href="/wiki/User:DankJae" title="User:DankJae"><span style="color: black">Dank</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:DankJae" title="User talk:DankJae"><span style="color: red">Jae</span></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-DankJae-20241127193500-Hogyncymru-20241126170600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:35, 27 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DankJae-20241127193500-Hogyncymru-20241126170600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DankJae-20241127193500-Hogyncymru-20241126170600"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Ancestry" data-mw-thread-id="h-Ancestry-20240918150400"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Ancestry-20240918150400"></span>Ancestry<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Ancestry-20240918150400"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20241109170600-Ancestry"></span> Our page shows Glyndŵr's heritage from princes of Powys, Deheubarth and Gwynedd. We are relying on a mix of sources for this. Powys and Deheubarth are not really a problem. Davies & Morgan has a similar chart for these, and although we add detail, there are no discrepancies. Those are supported by a good source. But then, this is what R. R. Davies wrote about the Gwynedd line: <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237805129"></p><blockquote class="talkquote"><p>“What then of the third family, that of Gwynedd, the lineage which came nearest to realising the dream of a united and independent Wales, until broken by the fall of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd in 1282? Here Owain did not have the same strong claims as he did in Powys and the south. However, two factors were in his favour. His great-grandmother Gwenllïan was descended from Gruffudd ap Cynan, Prince of Gwynedd (d. 1137). Admittedly this connection would not carry much weight today, but in medieval Wales such a connection could be dwelt on by a bard or genealogist. The second and more important factor was that the direct male line of Gwynedd had undeniably become extinct in 1378. Its last representative was Owain Lawgoch...</p></blockquote> <p>Now here is my problem with this: Gwenllïan is not on the Gwynedd line, and we are calling Glyndŵr's great grandmother Catherine instead. I marked up some sources and there has been some rejigging, but edsums suggest we are relying on one source for part of the table, and a different source for another. And then we have the essay like Gwynedd Ancestry Confusion section. We cannot synthesise multiple sources, particularly if we are coming to a conclusion that is in actual contravention to information in another source. I think the Gwynedd branch should probably be removed and replaced with prose similar to what Davies has. <a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20241109170600-Ancestry" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:06, 9 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20241109170600-Ancestry"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20241109170600-Ancestry"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20241109173600-Sirfurboy-20241109170600"></span>OK, I knew this issue would arise. For clarity I started a talk page on <a href="/wiki/Template_talk:Owain_GD%27s_Lineage" title="Template talk:Owain GD's Lineage">Template talk:Owain GD's Lineage</a>. I'm more than willing to find the best solution and wouldn't want to contend any ideas. So, please use the talk for the lineage to find the solution, therefore more people can better understand the confusion regarding Catherine ferch Llywelyn. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20241109173600-Sirfurboy-20241109170600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:36, 9 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20241109173600-Sirfurboy-20241109170600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20241109173600-Sirfurboy-20241109170600"></span> <dl><dd>I think the discussion should be here. More people are watching this page, and the template only gets used on this page. One might wonder why it is a template at all - but we'll park that. I am transcluding the discussion from there. That will ensure it is visible on both pages.</dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Transcluded_comment" data-mw-thread-id="h-Transcluded_comment-Ancestry-20240918150400"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Transcluded_comment-Ancestry-20240918150400"></span>Transcluded comment<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Transcluded_comment-Ancestry-20240918150400"></span></h3></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20240918150400-Transcluded_comment"></span>The lineage of <a href="/wiki/Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r" title="Owain Glyndŵr">Owain Glyndŵr</a> is consistent for the Welsh medieval Kingdoms, specifically the three <a href="/wiki/Royal_house" class="mw-redirect" title="Royal house">royal houses</a>; <a href="/wiki/List_of_monarchs_of_Powys" title="List of monarchs of Powys">Powys</a> (<a href="/wiki/House_of_Mathrafal" title="House of Mathrafal">Mathrafal</a>), Deheubarth (<a href="/wiki/House_of_Dinefwr" title="House of Dinefwr">Dinefwr</a>), however, there has been confusion as to who his ancestors were in <a href="/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_Gwynedd" title="List of rulers of Gwynedd">Gwynedd</a> (<a href="/wiki/House_of_Aberffraw" title="House of Aberffraw">Aberffraw</a>). </p><p>Welsh scholars in books such as <a href="/wiki/Dictionary_of_Welsh_Biography" title="Dictionary of Welsh Biography">Dictionary of Welsh Biography</a>,<sup id="cite_ref-11" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-11"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>1<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> or Roger Turvery, have him descended from <a href="/wiki/Owain_Gwynedd" title="Owain Gwynedd">Owain Gwynedd</a> (possibly) or <a href="/wiki/Gruffudd_ap_Cynan" title="Gruffudd ap Cynan">Gruffudd ap Cynan</a>.<sup id="cite_ref-12" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-12"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>2<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> Whilst other sources state <a href="/wiki/Llywelyn_the_Great" class="mw-redirect" title="Llywelyn the Great">Llywelyn the Great</a> (Llywelyn I) was his royal ancestor from Gwynedd (Owain Gwynedd's grandson), which also connects him to <a href="/wiki/Edward_I" class="mw-redirect" title="Edward I">Edward I</a>, King of England.<sup id="cite_ref-13" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-13"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>3<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup>. Then, the third individual listed as Glyndwr's <a href="/wiki/Kingdom_of_Gwynedd" title="Kingdom of Gwynedd">Kingdom of Gwynedd</a> ancestor would be <a href="/wiki/Llywelyn_ap_Gruffudd" title="Llywelyn ap Gruffudd">Llywelyn ap Gruffudd</a> (Llywelyn II) grandson of Llywelyn I, again connecting to Edward I via <a href="/wiki/Eleanor_of_England,_Countess_of_Bar" title="Eleanor of England, Countess of Bar">Eleanor of England, Countess of Bar</a> through Tomos ap Llywelyn ab Owain (intermarrying Deheubarth and Gwynedd in his lineage) in the lineage chart.<sup id="cite_ref-14" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-14"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>4<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup><sup id="cite_ref-15" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-15"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>5<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> However, historians such as Professor <a href="/wiki/John_Edward_Lloyd" title="John Edward Lloyd">John Edward Lloyd</a> and many modern <a href="/wiki/Welsh_people" title="Welsh people">Welsh people</a> refuse the claim of Glyndwr being descended from <a href="/wiki/Llywelyn_II" class="mw-redirect" title="Llywelyn II">Llywelyn II</a> because of the dispute regarding the inconsistent recording of his supposed daughter Catherine,<sup id="cite_ref-16" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-16"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>6<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> and also his ancestry from England and Edward I has been brought into dispute. </p><p>Therefore, in this article there have now been 2 lineage charts created connecting Glyndwr to Gwynedd, Deheubarth and then Powys. So, I updated the original chart posted showing descent from Gwynedd and Llywelyn I to the full lineage of Glyndwr as descendant of his Llywelyn I's grandson, Llywelyn II, thus completing his direct lineage from the final generations of rulers of Wales' 3 royal houses, which made him a direct descendant from all the original Welsh <a href="/wiki/Princes_of_Wales" class="mw-redirect" title="Princes of Wales">Princes of Wales</a>, prior to the English title from Edward I. The update shows Glyndwr's ancestor from Gwynedd being Llywelyn II, which represents the work of <a href="/wiki/Bernard_Burke" title="Bernard Burke">Bernard Burke</a>, (1844 & 1876 geneology research) the <a href="/wiki/Norroy_and_Ulster_King_of_Arms" title="Norroy and Ulster King of Arms">Norroy and Ulster King of Arms</a>, of the <a href="/wiki/College_of_Arms" title="College of Arms">College of Arms</a> (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/">college-of-arms.gov.uk</a>), who are the geneological industry's highest standard and authority on the subject of <a href="/wiki/British_Monarchy" class="mw-redirect" title="British Monarchy">British Monarchy</a> geneology, supposing if there was an error, a correction would have been made of Burke's work from over 150 years ago. If someone wishes to contest Owain Glyndwr's whole documented lineage from Gwynedd as his final ancestor from the dynasty, and then also existence of Llywelyn II's daughter Catherine, then please talk in this article, or read and contribute to the talk pages: <a href="/wiki/Talk:Llywelyn_ap_Gruffudd" title="Talk:Llywelyn ap Gruffudd">Talk:Llywelyn ap Gruffudd</a> and <a class="mw-selflink selflink">Talk:Owain Glyndŵr</a>, as the 17th September, 2024. </p> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1232521257"><div class="reflist-talk"> <p class="reflist-talk-title">References</p> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239543626"><div class="reflist"> <div class="mw-references-wrap"><ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-11"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-11">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFPierce1959" class="citation encyclopaedia cs1">Pierce, Thomas Jones (1959). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://biography.wales/article/s-OWAI-GLY-1354">"Owain Glyndwr (c. 1354–1416), 'Prince of Wales'<span class="cs1-kern-right"></span>"</a>. <i><a href="/wiki/Dictionary_of_Welsh_Biography" title="Dictionary of Welsh Biography">Dictionary of Welsh Biography</a></i>. <a href="/wiki/National_Library_of_Wales" title="National Library of Wales">National Library of Wales</a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=bookitem&rft.atitle=Owain+Glyndwr+%28c.+1354%E2%80%931416%29%2C+%27Prince+of+Wales%27&rft.btitle=Dictionary+of+Welsh+Biography&rft.pub=National+Library+of+Wales&rft.date=1959&rft.aulast=Pierce&rft.aufirst=Thomas+Jones&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fbiography.wales%2Farticle%2Fs-OWAI-GLY-1354&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AOwain+Glynd%C5%B5r" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-12"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-12">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFTurvey2010" class="citation book cs1">Turvey, Roger (2010). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.worldcat.org/title/657181335"><i>Twenty-One Welsh Princes</i></a>. Conwy: <a href="/wiki/Gwasg_Carreg_Gwalch" title="Gwasg Carreg Gwalch">Gwasg Carreg Gwalch</a>. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/9781845272692" title="Special:BookSources/9781845272692"><bdi>9781845272692</bdi></a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Twenty-One+Welsh+Princes&rft.place=Conwy&rft.pub=Gwasg+Carreg+Gwalch&rft.date=2010&rft.isbn=9781845272692&rft.aulast=Turvey&rft.aufirst=Roger&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.worldcat.org%2Ftitle%2F657181335&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AOwain+Glynd%C5%B5r" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-13"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-13">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">Kenneth Panton, <i>Historical Dictionary of the British Monarchy</i>, (Scarecrow Press, 2011), 173.</span> </li> <li id="cite_note-14"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-14">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFTout1901" class="citation encyclopaedia cs1"><a href="/wiki/Thomas_Frederick_Tout" class="mw-redirect" title="Thomas Frederick Tout">Tout, T.F.</a> (1901). <span class="cs1-ws-icon" title="s:Dictionary of National Biography, 1885-1900/Glendower, Owen"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_National_Biography,_1885-1900/Glendower,_Owen">"Glendower, Owen (1359?–1416?), Welsh rebel" </a></span>. In <a href="/wiki/Leslie_Stephen" title="Leslie Stephen">Stephen, Leslie</a> (ed.). <i><a href="/wiki/Dictionary_of_National_Biography" title="Dictionary of National Biography">Dictionary of National Biography</a></i>. Vol. 21. London: Smith, Elder & Co.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=bookitem&rft.atitle=Glendower%2C+Owen+%281359%3F%E2%80%931416%3F%29%2C+Welsh+rebel&rft.btitle=Dictionary+of+National+Biography&rft.place=London&rft.pub=Smith%2C+Elder+%26+Co&rft.date=1901&rft.aulast=Tout&rft.aufirst=T.F.&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AOwain+Glynd%C5%B5r" class="Z3988"></span> </span> </li> <li id="cite_note-15"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-15">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFBurke1876" class="citation book cs1"><a href="/wiki/Bernard_Burke" title="Bernard Burke">Burke, Bernard</a> (1876). <a class="external text" href="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/The_Royal_Families_of_England%2C_Scotland%2C_and_Wales_%28IA_royalfamiliesofe01burk_1%29.pdf"><i>The Royal Families of England, Scotland</i></a> <span class="cs1-format">(PDF)</span>. <a href="/wiki/Pall_Mall,_London" title="Pall Mall, London">Pall Mall, London</a>: Harrison. pp. 7, 43, 51, 97.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=The+Royal+Families+of+England%2C+Scotland&rft.place=Pall+Mall%2C+London&rft.pages=7%2C+43%2C+51%2C+97&rft.pub=Harrison&rft.date=1876&rft.aulast=Burke&rft.aufirst=Bernard&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F7%2F72%2FThe_Royal_Families_of_England%252C_Scotland%252C_and_Wales_%2528IA_royalfamiliesofe01burk_1%2529.pdf&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AOwain+Glynd%C5%B5r" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-16"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-16">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite class="citation web cs1"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://journals.library.wales/view/1386666/1396091/159#?xywh=-435%2C362%2C3254%2C1759">"Welsh Journals – Transactions of the Honourable Society of Cymmrodorion, 1918–1919, 1920"</a>. <i>journals.library.wales</i>. p. 138<span class="reference-accessdate">. Retrieved <span class="nowrap">31 August</span> 2024</span>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=unknown&rft.jtitle=journals.library.wales&rft.atitle=Welsh+Journals+%E2%80%93+Transactions+of+the+Honourable+Society+of+Cymmrodorion%2C+1918%E2%80%931919%2C+1920&rft.pages=138&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fjournals.library.wales%2Fview%2F1386666%2F1396091%2F159%23%3Fxywh%3D-435%252C362%252C3254%252C1759&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AOwain+Glynd%C5%B5r" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> </ol></div></div> </div> <p><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20240918150400-Transcluded_comment" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:04, 18 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20240918150400-Transcluded_comment"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20240918150400-Transcluded_comment"></span> </p><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sirfurboy-20241109183900-Cltjames-20240918150400"></span>Checking the history of <a href="/wiki/Template:Owain_GD%27s_Lineage" title="Template:Owain GD's Lineage">Template:Owain GD's Lineage</a> I see that we only had 2 lines on the template until a Cardiff IP added a third one in 2019 <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3AOwain_GD%27s_Lineage&diff=881630078&oldid=820375503">[9]</a> and then you changed all that this year. Neither the IPs nor yours match what Davies says. He says <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">His great-grandmother Gwenllïan was descended from Gruffudd ap Cynan</q>. This is not on the lineages. He also says, <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">the direct male line of Gwynedd had undeniably become extinct in 1378.</q> The only place this template is used is on this page. We need to follow the sources and not synthesise our own research from a mixture of sources. <a href="/wiki/User:Sirfurboy" title="User:Sirfurboy">Sirfurboy🏄</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirfurboy" title="User talk:Sirfurboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Sirfurboy-20241109183900-Cltjames-20240918150400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:39, 9 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sirfurboy-20241109183900-Cltjames-20240918150400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sirfurboy-20241109183900-Cltjames-20240918150400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cltjames-20241109185000-Sirfurboy-20241109183900"></span>That's fine. I just wanted to bring up the full story involved in Glyndwr's ancestry. But maybe it's best we use your knowledge on the subject matter and alter the lineage to comply with Wikipedia protocol. If you like, you can revert. But keep the talk for those interested in the whole story. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Cltjames&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Cltjames (page does not exist)">Cltjames</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cltjames" title="User talk:Cltjames">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r#c-Cltjames-20241109185000-Sirfurboy-20241109183900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:50, 9 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cltjames-20241109185000-Sirfurboy-20241109183900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cltjames-20241109185000-Sirfurboy-20241109183900"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><br/> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Discussion_(not_transcluded)" data-mw-thread-id="h-Discussion_(not_transcluded)-Ancestry"><span id="Discussion_.28not_transcluded.29"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Discussion_(not_transcluded)-Ancestry"></span>Discussion (not transcluded)<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Discussion_(not_transcluded)-Ancestry"></span></h3></div></div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Owain_Glyndŵr&oldid=1259911058">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Owain_Glyndŵr&oldid=1259911058</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-normal-catlinks" class="mw-normal-catlinks"><a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">Categories</a>: <ul><li><a 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