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class="vector-toc-numb">2</span> <span>Gandalf/Sauruman</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Gandalf/Sauruman-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Stub?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Stub?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">3</span> <span>Stub?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Stub?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Members_of_the_first_White_Council" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Members_of_the_first_White_Council"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">4</span> <span>Members of the first White Council</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Members_of_the_first_White_Council-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> 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(prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}</style><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Arda.Tengwar.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Arda.Tengwar.svg/16px-Arda.Tengwar.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Arda.Tengwar.svg/24px-Arda.Tengwar.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Arda.Tengwar.svg/32px-Arda.Tengwar.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="56" data-file-height="87"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Middle-earth" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth">Middle-earth</a> </td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Arda.Tengwar.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Arda.Tengwar.svg/50px-Arda.Tengwar.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="78" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Arda.Tengwar.svg/75px-Arda.Tengwar.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Arda.Tengwar.svg/100px-Arda.Tengwar.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="56" data-file-height="87"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This redirect is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Middle-earth" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth">WikiProject Middle-earth</a></b>, which aims to build an encyclopedic guide to <a href="/wiki/J.R._R._Tolkien" class="mw-redirect" title="J.R. R. Tolkien">J. R. R. Tolkien</a>, his <a href="/wiki/Tolkien%27s_legendarium" title="Tolkien's legendarium">legendarium</a>, and related topics. Please visit the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Middle-earth" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth">project talk page</a> for suggestions and ideas on how you can improve this and other articles.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Middle-earth</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Middle-earth</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Tolkien articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td colspan="3"><small><b>Note:</b> Though it states in the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Guide_to_writing_better_articles" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles">Guide to writing better articles</a> that generally fictional articles should be written in present tense, all Tolkien legendarium-related articles that cover in-universe material <i><b>before</b></i> the current action must be written in <i><b>past tense</b></i>. Please see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Middle-earth/Standards" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth/Standards">Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth/Standards</a> for more information about this and other article standards.</small></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Disambiguation?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Disambiguation?"><span id="Disambiguation.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Disambiguation?"></span>Disambiguation?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Disambiguation?"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:White_Council&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Disambiguation?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p>It is probable that the other uses section is better in some other context, but there is a 'name space collision' here, so something needs be done. Perhaps a pointer to another article? <a href="/wiki/User:Ww" title="User:Ww">ww</a> 17:21, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC) </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Gandalf/Sauruman" data-mw-thread-id="h-Gandalf/Sauruman-2006-05-07T14:56:00.000Z"><span id="Gandalf.2FSauruman"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Gandalf/Sauruman-2006-05-07T14:56:00.000Z"></span>Gandalf/Sauruman<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Gandalf/Sauruman-2006-05-07T14:56:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:White_Council&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Gandalf/Sauruman"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bryan_Tong_Minh-2006-05-07T14:56:00.000Z-Gandalf/Sauruman"></span>Lordess of the Ring, the info you are putting is already in the article: "The White Council's head was the Wizard <a href="/wiki/Saruman" title="Saruman">Saruman the White</a>, (although Galadriel wished for <a href="/wiki/Gandalf" title="Gandalf">Gandalf the Grey</a> to be made the leader)." And if you commit changes, please use correct English. Thank you, <a href="/wiki/User:Bryan_Tong_Minh" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Bryan Tong Minh">Bryan</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:White_Council#c-Bryan_Tong_Minh-2006-05-07T14:56:00.000Z-Gandalf/Sauruman" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:56, 7 May 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bryan_Tong_Minh-2006-05-07T14:56:00.000Z-Gandalf/Sauruman"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bryan_Tong_Minh-2006-05-07T14:56:00.000Z-Gandalf/Sauruman"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Stub?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Stub?-2006-07-11T14:25:00.000Z"><span id="Stub.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Stub?-2006-07-11T14:25:00.000Z"></span>Stub?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Stub?-2006-07-11T14:25:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:White_Council&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Stub?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Urbane_Legend-2006-07-11T14:25:00.000Z-Stub?"></span>Is this still a stub? Is there other information to be added? ▫ <a href="/wiki/User:Urbane_Legend" title="User:Urbane Legend">Urbane Legend</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Urbane_Legend" title="User talk:Urbane Legend">talk</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:White_Council#c-Urbane_Legend-2006-07-11T14:25:00.000Z-Stub?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Urbane_Legend-2006-07-11T14:25:00.000Z-Stub?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Urbane_Legend-2006-07-11T14:25:00.000Z-Stub?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-CBDunkerson-2006-07-12T00:46:00.000Z-Urbane_Legend-2006-07-11T14:25:00.000Z"></span>There is still more which could be added, references for instance, but I don't think this is a stub any more. --<a href="/wiki/User_talk:CBDunkerson" title="User talk:CBDunkerson">CBD</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:White_Council#c-CBDunkerson-2006-07-12T00:46:00.000Z-Urbane_Legend-2006-07-11T14:25:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:46, 12 July 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-CBDunkerson-2006-07-12T00:46:00.000Z-Urbane_Legend-2006-07-11T14:25:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-CBDunkerson-2006-07-12T00:46:00.000Z-Urbane_Legend-2006-07-11T14:25:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Members_of_the_first_White_Council" data-mw-thread-id="h-Members_of_the_first_White_Council"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Members_of_the_first_White_Council"></span>Members of the first White Council<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Members_of_the_first_White_Council"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:White_Council&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: Members of the first White Council"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p>How can the members of the first White Council be "mostly the same as [those of] the Second" if the wizards haven't even arrived in Middle Earth yet?<br/>-- Thomas 15:33, 29 December 2006 (UTC) </p><p><br/> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Radagast" data-mw-thread-id="h-Radagast-2008-03-15T21:24:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Radagast-2008-03-15T21:24:00.000Z"></span>Radagast<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Radagast-2008-03-15T21:24:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:White_Council&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: Radagast"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Neelmack-2008-03-15T21:24:00.000Z-Radagast"></span>Radagast was not a member of the White Council. A list of names is given in the Silmarillion and only Gandalf and Saruman are mentioned. Radagast helped Saruman in his role as member, but that is not the same thing. Although it may seem strange to exclude a wizard from the council, it was obviously felt that Radagast had no skill in politics or war and he is portrayed as having far less power then either Gandalf or Saruman. I'm going to correct the article. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Neelmack&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Neelmack (page does not exist)">Neelmack</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Neelmack" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Neelmack">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:White_Council#c-Neelmack-2008-03-15T21:24:00.000Z-Radagast" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:24, 15 March 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Neelmack-2008-03-15T21:24:00.000Z-Radagast"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Neelmack-2008-03-15T21:24:00.000Z-Radagast"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Removal_of_White_Council_fan_board" data-mw-thread-id="h-Removal_of_White_Council_fan_board-2007-02-18T11:18:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Removal_of_White_Council_fan_board-2007-02-18T11:18:00.000Z"></span>Removal of White Council fan board<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Removal_of_White_Council_fan_board-2007-02-18T11:18:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:White_Council&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: Removal of White Council fan board"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vi_Veri_Veniversum_Vivus_Vici-2007-02-18T11:18:00.000Z-Removal_of_White_Council_fan_board"></span>Wikipedia is not a tool for self promotion. <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://p211.ezboard.com/fthelotrmoviesitefrm17.showMessageRange?topicID=71.topic&start=161&stop=162">http://p211.ezboard.com/fthelotrmoviesitefrm17.showMessageRange?topicID=71.topic&start=161&stop=162</a> "I'm thinking maybe this will be good for us - give us some more press mayhaps." Rather than even a brief mention (which would still have been inappropriate), a long ad for the entire fansite was written, nearly as long as the section on the Second White Council itself. If you want, add a link to your fansite on <a href="/wiki/Tolkien_fandom" title="Tolkien fandom">Tolkien fandom</a> (an article which I originated in the Elder Days...).--<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Vi_Veri_Veniversum_Vivus_Vici&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici (page does not exist)">Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:White_Council#c-Vi_Veri_Veniversum_Vivus_Vici-2007-02-18T11:18:00.000Z-Removal_of_White_Council_fan_board" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:18, 18 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vi_Veri_Veniversum_Vivus_Vici-2007-02-18T11:18:00.000Z-Removal_of_White_Council_fan_board"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vi_Veri_Veniversum_Vivus_Vici-2007-02-18T11:18:00.000Z-Removal_of_White_Council_fan_board"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bryan_Tong_Minh-2007-02-18T19:55:00.000Z-Vi_Veri_Veniversum_Vivus_Vici-2007-02-18T11:18:00.000Z"></span>Agree. This was blatant spam. <a href="/wiki/User:Bryan_Tong_Minh" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Bryan Tong Minh">Bryan</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:White_Council#c-Bryan_Tong_Minh-2007-02-18T19:55:00.000Z-Vi_Veri_Veniversum_Vivus_Vici-2007-02-18T11:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:55, 18 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bryan_Tong_Minh-2007-02-18T19:55:00.000Z-Vi_Veri_Veniversum_Vivus_Vici-2007-02-18T11:18:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bryan_Tong_Minh-2007-02-18T19:55:00.000Z-Vi_Veri_Veniversum_Vivus_Vici-2007-02-18T11:18:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vi_Veri_Veniversum_Vivus_Vici-2007-02-19T12:01:00.000Z-Bryan_Tong_Minh-2007-02-18T19:55:00.000Z"></span>Thank you, sir. --<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Vi_Veri_Veniversum_Vivus_Vici&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici (page does not exist)">Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:White_Council#c-Vi_Veri_Veniversum_Vivus_Vici-2007-02-19T12:01:00.000Z-Bryan_Tong_Minh-2007-02-18T19:55:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vi_Veri_Veniversum_Vivus_Vici-2007-02-19T12:01:00.000Z-Bryan_Tong_Minh-2007-02-18T19:55:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vi_Veri_Veniversum_Vivus_Vici-2007-02-19T12:01:00.000Z-Bryan_Tong_Minh-2007-02-18T19:55:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-69.210.66.153-2007-02-19T21:17:00.000Z-Removal_of_White_Council_fan_board"></span>Wikipedia is not a tool for self promotion? What universe do you live in? If your intent is to say it's not SUPPOSED to be a tool for self promotion, you are correct. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:69.210.66.153&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:69.210.66.153 (page does not exist)">69.210.66.153</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:White_Council#c-69.210.66.153-2007-02-19T21:17:00.000Z-Removal_of_White_Council_fan_board" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:17, 19 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-69.210.66.153-2007-02-19T21:17:00.000Z-Removal_of_White_Council_fan_board"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-69.210.66.153-2007-02-19T21:17:00.000Z-Removal_of_White_Council_fan_board"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vi_Veri_Veniversum_Vivus_Vici-2007-02-20T21:49:00.000Z-69.210.66.153-2007-02-19T21:17:00.000Z"></span>You won't win people over with an improper attitude like that. --<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Vi_Veri_Veniversum_Vivus_Vici&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici (page does not exist)">Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:White_Council#c-Vi_Veri_Veniversum_Vivus_Vici-2007-02-20T21:49:00.000Z-69.210.66.153-2007-02-19T21:17:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vi_Veri_Veniversum_Vivus_Vici-2007-02-20T21:49:00.000Z-69.210.66.153-2007-02-19T21:17:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vi_Veri_Veniversum_Vivus_Vici-2007-02-20T21:49:00.000Z-69.210.66.153-2007-02-19T21:17:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vi_Veri_Veniversum_Vivus_Vici-2007-02-20T21:51:00.000Z-Removal_of_White_Council_fan_board"></span>(sigh) from the link above; "IT GOT REMOVED!! Someone else post something again! We have to make it stick!!" Well, I'll have to put this page on my Watchlist. --<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Vi_Veri_Veniversum_Vivus_Vici&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici (page does not exist)">Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:White_Council#c-Vi_Veri_Veniversum_Vivus_Vici-2007-02-20T21:51:00.000Z-Removal_of_White_Council_fan_board" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:51, 20 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vi_Veri_Veniversum_Vivus_Vici-2007-02-20T21:51:00.000Z-Removal_of_White_Council_fan_board"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vi_Veri_Veniversum_Vivus_Vici-2007-02-20T21:51:00.000Z-Removal_of_White_Council_fan_board"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Celeborn" data-mw-thread-id="h-Celeborn-2007-08-27T04:51:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Celeborn-2007-08-27T04:51:00.000Z"></span>Celeborn<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Celeborn-2007-08-27T04:51:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:White_Council&action=edit&section=7" title="Edit section: Celeborn"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-John_Kenney-2007-08-27T04:51:00.000Z-Celeborn"></span>On what basis do we say that <i>Thranduil</i>, of all people, is a possible member, but that Celeborn is "generally considered" not to have been one. Thranduil was pretty clearly <i>not</i> present at the White Council meeting in 2941, since he was chilling in his halls, keeping the Dwarves prisoner, and seems to have no involvement in the attack on Dol Guldur, which was apparently largely conducted by Lórien elves. <a href="/wiki/User:John_Kenney" class="mw-redirect" title="User:John Kenney">john k</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:White_Council#c-John_Kenney-2007-08-27T04:51:00.000Z-Celeborn" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:51, 27 August 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-John_Kenney-2007-08-27T04:51:00.000Z-Celeborn"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-John_Kenney-2007-08-27T04:51:00.000Z-Celeborn"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Saruman_and_the_"long_defeat",_"are_said"" data-mw-thread-id="h-Saruman_and_the_"long_defeat",_"are_said"-2007-11-30T02:15:00.000Z"><span id="Saruman_and_the_.22long_defeat.22.2C_.22are_said.22"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Saruman_and_the_"long_defeat",_"are_said"-2007-11-30T02:15:00.000Z"></span>Saruman and the "long defeat", "are said"<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Saruman_and_the_"long_defeat",_"are_said"-2007-11-30T02:15:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:White_Council&action=edit&section=8" title="Edit section: Saruman and the "long defeat", "are said""><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JerryFriedman-2007-11-30T02:15:00.000Z-Saruman_and_the_"long_defeat",_"are_said""></span>Is <i>Unfinished Tales</i> the source for the statement Saruman headed the Council "against the wishes of Galadriel, who later described this as the beginning of the long defeat"? The phrase "long defeat" appears in the cited chapter of LotR, but with no connection to Saruman. </p><p>Also, the article reads, "Other possible members are said to be among the mightiest of Elves…" Said by critics, fans, or Tolkien? This needs to be made explicit, and if the answer is not Tolkien, a source would be great. —<a href="/wiki/User:JerryFriedman" title="User:JerryFriedman">JerryFriedman</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JerryFriedman" title="User talk:JerryFriedman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:White_Council#c-JerryFriedman-2007-11-30T02:15:00.000Z-Saruman_and_the_"long_defeat",_"are_said"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:15, 30 November 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JerryFriedman-2007-11-30T02:15:00.000Z-Saruman_and_the_"long_defeat",_"are_said""><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JerryFriedman-2007-11-30T02:15:00.000Z-Saruman_and_the_"long_defeat",_"are_said""></span> </p>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:White_Council&oldid=1206031452">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:White_Council&oldid=1206031452</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-normal-catlinks" class="mw-normal-catlinks"><a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">Categories</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Redirect-Class_Tolkien_articles" title="Category:Redirect-Class Tolkien articles">Redirect-Class Tolkien articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:NA-importance_Tolkien_articles" title="Category:NA-importance Tolkien articles">NA-importance Tolkien articles</a></li></ul></div><div id="mw-hidden-catlinks" class="mw-hidden-catlinks mw-hidden-cats-hidden">Hidden category: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Past_proposed_deletion_candidates" title="Category:Past proposed deletion candidates">Past proposed deletion candidates</a></li></ul></div></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 11 February 2024, at 01:43<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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