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<!doctype html> <html lang="en" data-reactroot=""><head><link as="script" href="https://www.afr.com/afx_prid/2023.10.16.1/auth/ps/p202310161.js?lcsid=D3377D70-045F-4C2C-B07F-C88533E87E67" rel="preload"/><script>var afx_start = Date.now();</script><script src="https://www.afr.com/afx_prid/2023.10.16.1/auth/ps/p202310161.js?lcsid=D3377D70-045F-4C2C-B07F-C88533E87E67"></script><meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type"/><meta content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1.0" name="viewport"/><title data-rh="true">Atlassian’s Mike Cannon-Brookes and what Didier Elzinga of Culture Amp learnt from him and Scott Farquhar</title><link href="//api.ffx.io" rel="dns-prefetch"/><link href="//api.afr.com" rel="dns-prefetch"/><link href="//static.ffx.io" rel="dns-prefetch"/><link href="//www.googletagmanager.com" rel="dns-prefetch"/><link crossorigin="anonymous" href="https://adservice.google.com" rel="preconnect"/><link crossorigin="anonymous" href="https://buy-au.piano.io" 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srcSet="https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.1465%2C$multiply_4%2C$ratio_1%2C$width_378%2C$x_95%2C$y_0/t_crop_custom/c_scale%2Cw_382%2Cq_88%2Cf_auto/9201754a5e3d8727829eb5bbcd524a616bf11356, https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.1465%2C$multiply_4%2C$ratio_1%2C$width_378%2C$x_95%2C$y_0/t_crop_custom/c_scale%2Cw_764%2Cq_52%2Cf_auto/9201754a5e3d8727829eb5bbcd524a616bf11356 2x" sizes="(max-width: 767px) 343px" data-id="9201754a5e3d8727829eb5bbcd524a616bf11356" data-pb-im-config="{"aspectRatio":1,"type":"square1x1","width":343,"urls":["https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.1465%2C$multiply_4%2C$ratio_1%2C$width_378%2C$x_95%2C$y_0/t_crop_custom/c_scale%2Cw_382%2Cq_88%2Cf_auto/9201754a5e3d8727829eb5bbcd524a616bf11356"," https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.1465%2C$multiply_4%2C$ratio_1%2C$width_378%2C$x_95%2C$y_0/t_crop_custom/c_scale%2Cw_764%2Cq_52%2Cf_auto/9201754a5e3d8727829eb5bbcd524a616bf11356 2x"]}" width="343" height="343"/></picture><figcaption class="_80bb118486236bcec2bc"><p>Didier Elzinga is an avid reader of psychology books <cite class="_3c0c5a31e2deab9fe7b5">Eamon Gallagher</cite></p></figcaption></figure></div></header><section class="ae754da393b38cf0f618"><div class="d5dfe5984973a371f244"><section class="_368ce47922cc50406182" id="endOfArticle"><section class="_79ac355651a627afaf4b"><div class="_0744a0c2b755cec1309d"><span class="_4daa2b7c6a2abbd8337c"><span class="bad9c5476c04fb14be3e" data-testid="AuthorNames"><strong><a class="e8a3a96a1d96e42394a5" data-testid="AuthorURL" href="/by/sally-patten-j7gdj">Sally Patten</a></strong><span> and </span><strong><a class="e8a3a96a1d96e42394a5" data-testid="AuthorURL" href="/by/lap-phan-p4yw4n">Lap Phan</a></strong></span></span></div><section class="_288fb9f2c1f978e951fd"><div class="_4d22830be8e035459d36" data-testid="ArticleTimestamp"><time data-testid="ArticleTimestamp-time">Sep 17, 2024 – 5.00am</time></div><div class="_2a6dc840ff6bc204ff53" data-testid="ArticleTools"><div class="_9f146e4c46884f388d0e"><button 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https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_280%2C$height_280/t_crop_fill%2Cq_auto:best%2Cfl_any_format/0fe59bc3835acf6c65e32b2f09fe56376d6e7d18 2x"],"width":140,"aspectRatio":1,"type":"square1x1"}"/><img alt="Sally Patten" class="c101ad2e6ff325391dc3" data-testid="Image-image" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" data-src="https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_140%2C$height_140/t_crop_fill%2Cq_auto:best%2Cfl_any_format/0fe59bc3835acf6c65e32b2f09fe56376d6e7d18" srcSet="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7, data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" data-srcset="https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_140%2C$height_140/t_crop_fill%2Cq_auto:best%2Cfl_any_format/0fe59bc3835acf6c65e32b2f09fe56376d6e7d18, https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_280%2C$height_280/t_crop_fill%2Cq_auto:best%2Cfl_any_format/0fe59bc3835acf6c65e32b2f09fe56376d6e7d18 2x" sizes="(max-width: 767px) 140px" data-id="0fe59bc3835acf6c65e32b2f09fe56376d6e7d18" data-pb-im-config="{"urls":["https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_140%2C$height_140/t_crop_fill%2Cq_auto:best%2Cfl_any_format/0fe59bc3835acf6c65e32b2f09fe56376d6e7d18"," https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_280%2C$height_280/t_crop_fill%2Cq_auto:best%2Cfl_any_format/0fe59bc3835acf6c65e32b2f09fe56376d6e7d18 2x"],"width":140,"aspectRatio":1,"type":"square1x1"}" width="140" height="140"/></picture></figure><span class="_1b861ab323f41ec0b7ca"><strong><a class="a189e4281d1ef17b0b4e" data-testid="AuthorURL" href="/by/sally-patten-j7gdj">Sally Patten</a></strong></span><span class="_502fdc96c2c81588de6d">BOSS editor</span><span class="_528a6daccc86ac482af4">Sally Patten edits BOSS, and writes about workplace issues. She was the financial services editor and personal finance editor of the AFR, The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald. She edited business news for The Times of London.<span class="ebf04f7a6858148cabbd _1abef93fc6602c02bcb2" data-testid="Author-Social"><span> Connect with Sally on <a class="_86e1121a0a44d2d45f97" href="//twitter.com/sallympatten?lang=en" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Twitter</a>.</span><span> Email Sally at <a class="c5a5b7d2f686623f7687" href="mailto:spatten@afr.com">spatten@afr.com</a></span></span></span></div><div class="_081fe0810804383199c5"><figure class="_83b3181f65e29f8045f1 _6f6db0aa612a03c039e8" data-pb-type="im"><picture><source media="(min-width: 1180px)" width="140" height="140" srcSet="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7, data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" data-srcset="https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_140%2C$height_140/t_crop_fill%2Cq_auto:best%2Cfl_any_format/b66c9b7b3d3489520fc0f2f1e80655dbd9f00080, https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_280%2C$height_280/t_crop_fill%2Cq_auto:best%2Cfl_any_format/b66c9b7b3d3489520fc0f2f1e80655dbd9f00080 2x" data-pb-im-config="{"urls":["https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_140%2C$height_140/t_crop_fill%2Cq_auto:best%2Cfl_any_format/b66c9b7b3d3489520fc0f2f1e80655dbd9f00080"," https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_280%2C$height_280/t_crop_fill%2Cq_auto:best%2Cfl_any_format/b66c9b7b3d3489520fc0f2f1e80655dbd9f00080 2x"],"width":140,"aspectRatio":1,"type":"square1x1"}"/><source media="(min-width: 1020px)" width="140" height="140" srcSet="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7, data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" data-srcset="https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_140%2C$height_140/t_crop_fill%2Cq_auto:best%2Cfl_any_format/b66c9b7b3d3489520fc0f2f1e80655dbd9f00080, https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_280%2C$height_280/t_crop_fill%2Cq_auto:best%2Cfl_any_format/b66c9b7b3d3489520fc0f2f1e80655dbd9f00080 2x" data-pb-im-config="{"urls":["https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_140%2C$height_140/t_crop_fill%2Cq_auto:best%2Cfl_any_format/b66c9b7b3d3489520fc0f2f1e80655dbd9f00080"," https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_280%2C$height_280/t_crop_fill%2Cq_auto:best%2Cfl_any_format/b66c9b7b3d3489520fc0f2f1e80655dbd9f00080 2x"],"width":140,"aspectRatio":1,"type":"square1x1"}"/><source media="(min-width: 768px)" width="140" height="140" srcSet="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7, data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" data-srcset="https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_140%2C$height_140/t_crop_fill%2Cq_auto:best%2Cfl_any_format/b66c9b7b3d3489520fc0f2f1e80655dbd9f00080, https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_280%2C$height_280/t_crop_fill%2Cq_auto:best%2Cfl_any_format/b66c9b7b3d3489520fc0f2f1e80655dbd9f00080 2x" data-pb-im-config="{"urls":["https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_140%2C$height_140/t_crop_fill%2Cq_auto:best%2Cfl_any_format/b66c9b7b3d3489520fc0f2f1e80655dbd9f00080"," https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_280%2C$height_280/t_crop_fill%2Cq_auto:best%2Cfl_any_format/b66c9b7b3d3489520fc0f2f1e80655dbd9f00080 2x"],"width":140,"aspectRatio":1,"type":"square1x1"}"/><img alt="Lap Phan" class="c101ad2e6ff325391dc3" data-testid="Image-image" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" data-src="https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_140%2C$height_140/t_crop_fill%2Cq_auto:best%2Cfl_any_format/b66c9b7b3d3489520fc0f2f1e80655dbd9f00080" srcSet="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7, data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" data-srcset="https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_140%2C$height_140/t_crop_fill%2Cq_auto:best%2Cfl_any_format/b66c9b7b3d3489520fc0f2f1e80655dbd9f00080, https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_280%2C$height_280/t_crop_fill%2Cq_auto:best%2Cfl_any_format/b66c9b7b3d3489520fc0f2f1e80655dbd9f00080 2x" sizes="(max-width: 767px) 140px" data-id="b66c9b7b3d3489520fc0f2f1e80655dbd9f00080" data-pb-im-config="{"urls":["https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_140%2C$height_140/t_crop_fill%2Cq_auto:best%2Cfl_any_format/b66c9b7b3d3489520fc0f2f1e80655dbd9f00080"," https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_280%2C$height_280/t_crop_fill%2Cq_auto:best%2Cfl_any_format/b66c9b7b3d3489520fc0f2f1e80655dbd9f00080 2x"],"width":140,"aspectRatio":1,"type":"square1x1"}" width="140" height="140"/></picture></figure><span class="_1b861ab323f41ec0b7ca"><strong><a class="a189e4281d1ef17b0b4e" data-testid="AuthorURL" href="/by/lap-phan-p4yw4n">Lap Phan</a></strong></span><span class="_502fdc96c2c81588de6d">Head of Podcast</span><span class="_528a6daccc86ac482af4">Lap is a podcast producer and actor based in Sydney. He has appeared in numerous film, TV and theatre productions.<span class="ebf04f7a6858148cabbd _1abef93fc6602c02bcb2" data-testid="Author-Social"><span> Connect with Lap on <a class="_86e1121a0a44d2d45f97" href="//twitter.com/lapphan?lang=en" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Twitter</a>.</span><span> Email Lap at <a class="c5a5b7d2f686623f7687" href="mailto:lphan@afr.com">lphan@afr.com</a></span></span></span></div></div></section><section class="_7497db783171f2944740"><div class="_12071acfb60f663a6d6c" data-testid="keyPath-driver-wrapper-pos-1"><header class="_1d6911d24a4d542dc6f9"><h3 class="_7ce50a196b2b714ebd75"> Executive Education</h3><span class="_46db990dafd7b7b8f800"><span class="f6746d217698aa979e67">Powered by</span><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" fill="none" viewBox="0 0 100 16" class="dd6db77aa2c85e94be85 _50ca2fd8010d27506ec0" focusable="false" height="1em" aria-hidden="true" width="1em"><path fill="#46A593" d="M49.663 4.147h-.676v.836l1.949 1.93-1.949 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Atlassian was a business that could grow exponentially without the need to expand its workforce by the same proportion. In other words, it was scalable.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EElzinga took the lesson on board.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003E“I often say to people, if you’re smart, and you’ve got experience, your chance of building a service business to, say, $1 million in revenue is pretty high,” Elzinga tells this week’s \u003Cem\u003E15 Minutes with the BOSS\u003C\u002Fem\u003E podcast.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003E“Your chance of building a software business to $1 million in revenue is really low. But once you get both of those businesses to a few million dollars, the chance of scaling that service business starts to drop off quite a lot, whereas the software business can continue to grow,” he says.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EListen below or stream \u003Cem\u003E15 Minutes with the BOSS\u003C\u002Fem\u003E on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.\u003C\u002Fstrong\u003E\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cx-placeholder id=\"4a1abbfba0104510610abda9183be0ac6ac5f6a5\"\u003E\u003C\u002Fx-placeholder\u003E\u003Cp\u003EHere is an edited transcript of Sally Patten’s conversation with Didier Elzinga.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003ESally Patten: What time do you get up? What do you do after that?\u003C\u002Fstrong\u003E\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EDidier Elzinga:\u003C\u002Fstrong\u003E I get up at 5.30 and I hop into the pool, which is unheated, and lower myself to the neck for about five minutes. My start to the day is to get very, very cold.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EI believe the science, but I can’t tell you it’s made any difference to my health, so I don’t prescribe that it’s any wonderful thing. I just actually like it. It’s a bit like a rinse. You walk in a bit foggy, and you come out a lot sharper.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EDo you think you’ll keep on doing this all your life?\u003C\u002Fstrong\u003E\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EI see no reason to stop because I enjoy it. I think that’s the key thing. I’m not a masochist about it. It’s cold when I get in, but I actually quite enjoy it. Once you stop and just stay still, you get covered in a little bubble of – it’s not warmth, but it doesn’t get colder. Once you can last about two minutes, five or 10 minutes is easy.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EDo you rush in and have a hot shower after that?\u003C\u002Fstrong\u003E\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003ENo, you’re meant to wait until your body warms itself up. So I come back inside, I make my wife coffee, empty the dishwasher or walk the dogs. I do something for about half an hour, and then I go have a warm shower. I enjoy the warm shower as much, if not more, than the cold plunge.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EWhat time do you get to the office, assuming you are going into the office?\u003C\u002Fstrong\u003E\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EIt varies. I’m in the office two or three days a week. It will depend on when my first meeting is, when I’ll go in. We have a lot of people who work in the US. I have a lot of customers in the US, so my day will often start at 7am, or thereabouts. So I may be in before 7am. I may not be in until the afternoon if I have calls all morning and I take them from home.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EAre you a breakfast type of person?\u003C\u002Fstrong\u003E\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EI love breakfast. In a perfect world, I would have that at 7am, or thereabouts. Sometimes it might not be till mid-morning if I’ve got a whole bunch of meetings to go through. I don’t mind if I don’t eat breakfast until almost lunchtime.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003ETell me about a pivotal moment in your career that somehow changed the trajectory of what you were doing.\u003C\u002Fstrong\u003E\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EIn my previous life, I worked in film. I worked for a company called Rising Sun Pictures, and they made me the CEO, quite early. I think I was 25 or 26. We went into an Entrepreneur of the Year award and we ended up winning the South Australian section for our part in the business.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EAnd I went to the national awards, and met Mike [Cannon-Brookes] and Scott [Farquhar] who had started Atlassian. They’ve both become good friends of mine. In many ways, watching Atlassian grow was part of the reason I stepped out of RSP to start this [Culture Amp].\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EEverybody else had gone home and we were still out, so we got to know each other. Over the coming years, we became friends and kept track of each other and the rest is history, as they say.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EWhat did you learn from them?\u003C\u002Fstrong\u003E\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003ERising Sun Pictures was a service business working for Hollywood.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EService businesses are hard to scale. I was watching them build a software business with what is essentially a monotonic revenue curve. So every year you’re likely to get a little more revenue than you had last year. You tend to keep the revenue you already have.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003ELooking at their business model, I thought, that is a much better business model than the one I had.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EI often say to people, if you’re smart, and you’ve got experience, your chance of building a service business to, say, $1 million in revenue is pretty high. Your chance of building a software business to $1 million in revenue is really low. But once you get both of those businesses to a few million dollars, the chance of scaling that service business starts to drop off quite a lot, whereas the software business can continue to grow.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EThat was the insight for me. That business model was the right one for me.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EIs that one of the reasons you went on to set up Culture Amp – because you could see it would be a highly scalable business?\u003C\u002Fstrong\u003E\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EYes. I’d been in at Rising Sun for 13 years. I was the CEO for five. I was hugely thankful for all the opportunities I’d had, but I got to the point where I thought there’s got to be more to it than this. How do I make more of a difference in the world?\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EI credit my wife, [opera singer] Greta Bradman. She said, “You’re young, you can fail. Why don’t you try something else?”\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003ESo at that point, I thought, I’m going to step out. I’m going to push myself out of my comfort zone. I’m going to build a software company. I wanted to build a software company because I’d seen other people like Mike and Scott be successful doing it.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EI’d already built another software company anyway. Then the question was, what software company? It took me a while to realise that what I cared about more than anything was people and culture.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EIs there anything else you learnt from Cannon Brooks and Farquhar about how to set up a business and how to make it successful that you could point to?\u003C\u002Fstrong\u003E\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EProbably the biggest thing, and I think they’ve done this for a whole generation of entrepreneurs, is they have made people believe.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EIf you go back 10, 15 years, no one thought you could build a global technology company from Australia.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EWe had some great technology businesses, but they were largely locally orientated. Atlassian was one of the first to build [a global business]. If you didn’t know they were Australian, you wouldn’t assume they were.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EWhat is the best piece of career advice you’ve received?\u003C\u002Fstrong\u003E\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EProbably the best piece of career advice I actually got was from my dad.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EI’d finished year 12. I was about to start uni and I got offered a job at a colour pre-press place where I’d done my year 12 art. I was talking to my parents about it, and dad said, “You can take the job, or you can go to uni. I think you should go to uni. And one of the reasons is that at uni you will learn to think.”\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EHe said, “It’s very hard to learn to think on the job.”\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EAlso, it’s a social experience that you can’t go back and repeat. I think that’s really true. I often give that advice to people. What you study at uni doesn’t matter so much, but there is value in going deep on anything.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EIf you push yourself in history, in engineering, in commerce, in medicine, all of those things will teach you to think in a powerful way.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003ESo what did you study at university?\u003C\u002Fstrong\u003E\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EI did maths and computer science, but I did exactly half my points outside the department, in philosophy, anthropology, politics, etc.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EWhat’s a piece of advice you would like to pass on to others?\u003C\u002Fstrong\u003E\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EThe first thing is to acknowledge that you will leave the company you’re working for at some point and take another position.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003ESo what’s the journey you can make here? I think people tend to over-worry about whether this next choice is the absolute best choice for them right now. It’s interesting to think of yourself five years forward and consider you’re doing something different in another place.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003ESo think, what’s the right choice now to move you in that direction, rather than trying to make this move the absolute best?\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EI’d always optimise for the next role, not for this one.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EWho am I going to learn the most from?\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EIt’s way better to work for a great leader or a great manager in a domain you don’t know, than it is to get a fancy title or tick a box off on your career resumé. You’ll learn so much more.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003E Name three people you would like to have dinner with and why?\u003C\u002Fstrong\u003E\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EItalian writer and philosopher Umberto Eco who wrote \u003Ci\u003EFoucault’s Pendulum\u003C\u002Fi\u003E.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EHe’s a Italian professor of semiotics. I’ve read a bunch of his books. He’s one of those ridiculously smart people. You read his stuff and think, ‘wow, I would love to meet the brain behind that’.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EI’d love to have the Dalai Lama because he would be a profound person to learn from.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EThe third person I would choose would be Brené Brown. She’s the sociologist who wrote a range of books, but \u003Cem\u003EDare to Lead\u003C\u002Fem\u003E is probably the one I like the most. The reason I pick her is I think she is the person who really captured the power of vulnerability. To hear her talk directly to those experiences would be incredible.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EDo you read many books on psychology?\u003C\u002Fstrong\u003E\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EYes, I do. It’s always been a fascination. And now you’ve got me thinking about people. I would also go to Joseph Campbell who wrote \u003Cem\u003EThe Hero with a Thousand Faces. \u003C\u002Fem\u003EHe’s the guy that the whole of Hollywood has built on.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003ECan you tell me a little bit more about him?\u003C\u002Fstrong\u003E\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003ECampbell looked at all the myths around the world and tried to understand what are the common patterns in those myths.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EHollywood draws very heavily from his work. \u003Cem\u003EStar Wars\u003C\u002Fem\u003E, for example, was him working with George Lucas to tell a universal myth.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EWhat sorts of stereotypes does he distil and what conclusions does he come to?\u003C\u002Fstrong\u003E\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EThe concept of the hero’s journey is a universal narrative for a story that also goes on in all of our lives. It’s why it’s so compelling as entertainment, but also a tool you can use yourself.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EThe first part is someone who’s ordinary and normal in their life and wants to be special but isn’t in any way, shape or form.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003ESo think Bilbo Baggins in \u003Cem\u003ELord of the Rings.\u003C\u002Fem\u003E Then something happens where they get discovered or found or thrust into a situation where they have to go on an adventure. They go on that adventure and they get tested. There’s always a point where everything goes wrong, and you find yourself at the absolute lowest, but somehow you make it through that.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EThere’s an overlay about finding a teacher who takes you through it, and then there’s the redemption at the end. It’s a classic format.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EHow do you think we can use that in our lives?\u003C\u002Fstrong\u003E\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EThere are two ways. One is certainly as a leader, a lot of what you’re trying to do is help people understand the narrative that they find themselves in. Being able to understand that journey that we’re all going on at different times, whether it’s a company or a product or a particular person’s individual journey, it’s a very powerful framing tool.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003ESo when you use that framing tool, you can help people understand where it’s going and why it’s a good thing to get to the other side. It’s much more powerful than saying to somebody, let’s increase profits by 20 per cent. So one is a straight communication tool.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EThe second thing is also understanding in yourself that suffering and setback and difficulty are not always taking you in the wrong direction. That sometimes that’s a necessary part of the journey, and it doesn’t make it any better, but it gives you the equanimity that you need to make it through and out the other side and to not stop believing.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EWhat keeps you up at night?\u003C\u002Fstrong\u003E\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EGenerally speaking, I’m pretty good at going to sleep, but the things that keep me up at night are always people challenges.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003ESo it’s having a hard conversation?\u003C\u002Fstrong\u003E\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EOr knowing that someone wants to have a hard conversation with you, and you don’t yet know what that is.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EDo you rehearse hard conversations in your head?\u003C\u002Fstrong\u003E\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003ESometimes. I work with Ben Crowe, a mindset coach who works with Ash Barty and a whole heap of others.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EOne thing I got from Ben Crowe is to sit down and list all the things I can control, so I can control how I show up, I can control how prepared I am, I can control what I want to get out of the conversation.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EOn the other side, I write down all the things I can’t control.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EI can’t control how they’re going to feel. I can’t control the outcome, I can’t control if they’re going to cry, or if I’m going to cry. All of these things are things I can’t control. As Ben says, you have to accept everything on the right, and you have to focus on the left.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EThat process is actually quite a clarifying and valuable thing. So for a big enough conversation, I will do that before I start.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EI guess that’s something you could do before you go into every difficult decision or every difficult meeting or conversation. Write out what you can control and what you can’t\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EYou just realise how few things you can actually control.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EOne other powerful technique that I learnt is the concept of an idea storm.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003ESo you pick an object, let’s say a pen, and you have to come up with 20 questions about the object.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EWhat happens is that after about six or seven questions, you run out of questions because you’ve got all the easy ones.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003ESo then you have to have a curious mind, and think, I wonder who invented this pen, or who was the first person to write with it? Or some crazy thing.\u003C\u002Fp\u003E\u003Cp\u003EWhat it does is it shifts you into a curious mindset. It shifts you away from threat and away from fear, and into having a more open mind. 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