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[css-counter-styles] range fallback is neither widely implemented nor sensible as specified · Issue #2479 · w3c/csswg-drafts · GitHub
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1.474.952.85.869 1.132 2.037 1.132 3.368 0 .368-.014.733-.052 1.086.23.462.477 1.088.644 1.517 1.258.364 2.233 1.721 2.605 2.656a.832.832 0 0 1 .053.22v2.869a.641.641 0 0 1-.078.256ZM12.172 11h-.344a4.323 4.323 0 0 1-.355.508C10.703 12.455 9.555 13 7.965 13c-1.725 0-2.989-.359-3.782-1.259a2.005 2.005 0 0 1-.085-.104L4 11.741v6.585c1.435.779 4.514 2.179 8 2.179 3.486 0 6.565-1.4 8-2.179v-6.585l-.098-.104s-.033.045-.085.104c-.793.9-2.057 1.259-3.782 1.259-1.59 0-2.738-.545-3.508-1.492a4.323 4.323 0 0 1-.355-.508h-.016.016Zm.641-2.935c.136 1.057.403 1.913.878 2.497.442.544 1.134.938 2.344.938 1.573 0 2.292-.337 2.657-.751.384-.435.558-1.15.558-2.361 0-1.14-.243-1.847-.705-2.319-.477-.488-1.319-.862-2.824-1.025-1.487-.161-2.192.138-2.533.529-.269.307-.437.808-.438 1.578v.021c0 .265.021.562.063.893Zm-1.626 0c.042-.331.063-.628.063-.894v-.02c-.001-.77-.169-1.271-.438-1.578-.341-.391-1.046-.69-2.533-.529-1.505.163-2.347.537-2.824 1.025-.462.472-.705 1.179-.705 2.319 0 1.211.175 1.926.558 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specified","url":"https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2479","viewerCanUpdateNext":false,"issueType":null,"state":"CLOSED","stateReason":"COMPLETED","duplicateOf":null,"linkedPullRequests":{"nodes":[]},"subIssuesSummary":{"total":0,"completed":0},"__isLabelable":"Issue","labels":{"edges":[{"node":{"id":"MDU6TGFiZWwzOTU3ODY3OTc=","color":"f9d0c4","name":"Closed Rejected as Wontfix by Editor Discretion","nameHTML":"Closed Rejected as Wontfix by Editor Discretion","description":null,"url":"https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/labels/Closed%20Rejected%20as%20Wontfix%20by%20Editor%20Discretion","__typename":"Label"},"cursor":"MQ"},{"node":{"id":"MDU6TGFiZWwzOTU3OTEyMjQ=","color":"fbca04","name":"Commenter Response Pending","nameHTML":"Commenter Response 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fallbacks as needed) to decimal.\r\n\r\nThe normative stylesheet limits a bunch of languages to -9999 ... +9999, e.g. Armenian, and uses a single rule so that user agents are required to fall back to decimal. This is also true for Hebrew, Arabic, and CJK scripts, where roman decimal numbers don't use the same script (or direction?).\r\n\r\nThe range feature has practical uses that are helpful, but requiring that the UA fall back to roman numerals isn't one of them.\r\n\r\nWe have only one implementation of range, since only firefox implements \\@counter-style at all.\r\n\r\nI propose\r\n(1) change range so that it only falls back to explicitly mentioned fallback styles (so that you can chain rules, or say you want to fall back to Roman) - if you specify range without a fallback, the UA is to ignore the range property. You can still get the old (current) behaviour by specifying fallback to roman.\r\n\r\nThis will give some awkward results for numbers \u003e 10,000 but see the next part of this proposal...\r\n\r\n(2) remove range properties from the normative stylesheets and allow UAs to do better than 10,000\r\n\r\noptional:\r\n(3) move range and fallback to level 4, and stylesheet authors would just have to define numbering (or use predefined numbering) if they needed higher values - without requiring the UA to fail at 10,000.\r\n\r\n(4) move the corresponding tests for range/fallback (maybe a dozen or so) to level 4\r\n\r\nOf course, we still only have one implementation of the basic counter-style at-rule as far as i can tell, but this would simplify the spec, remove some tests that actually fail everywhere, and allow better results than the normative stylesheet allows.\r\n\r\n","bodyHTML":"\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://drafts.csswg.org/css-counter-styles/#counter-style-range\" rel=\"nofollow\"\u003ehttps://drafts.csswg.org/css-counter-styles/#counter-style-range\u003c/a\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eThe range property falls back (eventually, through other fallbacks as needed) to decimal.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eThe normative stylesheet limits a bunch of languages to -9999 ... +9999, e.g. Armenian, and uses a single rule so that user agents are required to fall back to decimal. This is also true for Hebrew, Arabic, and CJK scripts, where roman decimal numbers don't use the same script (or direction?).\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eThe range feature has practical uses that are helpful, but requiring that the UA fall back to roman numerals isn't one of them.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eWe have only one implementation of range, since only firefox implements @counter-style at all.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eI propose\u003cbr\u003e\n(1) change range so that it only falls back to explicitly mentioned fallback styles (so that you can chain rules, or say you want to fall back to Roman) - if you specify range without a fallback, the UA is to ignore the range property. You can still get the old (current) behaviour by specifying fallback to roman.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eThis will give some awkward results for numbers \u0026gt; 10,000 but see the next part of this proposal...\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003e(2) remove range properties from the normative stylesheets and allow UAs to do better than 10,000\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eoptional:\u003cbr\u003e\n(3) move range and fallback to level 4, and stylesheet authors would just have to define numbering (or use predefined numbering) if they needed higher values - without requiring the UA to fail at 10,000.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003e(4) move the corresponding tests for range/fallback (maybe a dozen or so) to level 4\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eOf course, we still only have one implementation of the basic counter-style at-rule as far as i can tell, but this would simplify the spec, remove some tests that actually fail everywhere, and allow better results than the normative stylesheet allows.\u003c/p\u003e","bodyVersion":"fa9912b8853a1cb6e5b04ecbad400ca68dce345fb7c5206f53ecdcf1a8eb27dd","createdAt":"2018-03-28T06:31:26Z","__isReactable":"Issue","reactionGroups":[{"content":"THUMBS_UP","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"THUMBS_DOWN","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"LAUGH","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"HOORAY","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"CONFUSED","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"HEART","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"ROCKET","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"EYES","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}}],"viewerCanUpdateMetadata":false,"viewerCanComment":false,"viewerCanAssign":false,"viewerCanLabel":false,"__isIssueOrPullRequest":"Issue","projectItemsNext":{"edges":[],"pageInfo":{"endCursor":null,"hasNextPage":false}},"viewerCanSetMilestone":false,"isPinned":false,"viewerCanDelete":false,"viewerCanTransfer":false,"viewerCanConvertToDiscussion":false,"viewerCanLock":false,"viewerCanType":false,"frontTimelineItems":{"pageInfo":{"hasNextPage":true,"endCursor":"Y3Vyc29yOnYyOpPPAAABeWes2qABqjQ3NDQwNDA4MDE="},"totalCount":17,"edges":[{"node":{"__typename":"IssueComment","__isIssueTimelineItems":"IssueComment","databaseId":377018237,"viewerDidAuthor":false,"issue":{"author":{"__typename":"User","login":"liamquin","id":"MDQ6VXNlcjgyNTg1MzU="},"id":"MDU6SXNzdWUzMDkyMzcyNTM=","number":2479,"locked":false,"databaseId":309237253},"author":{"__typename":"User","login":"tabatkins","avatarUrl":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/682840?v=4","id":"MDQ6VXNlcjY4Mjg0MA=="},"id":"MDEyOklzc3VlQ29tbWVudDM3NzAxODIzNw==","body":"\u003e (2) remove range properties from the normative stylesheets and allow UAs to do better than 10,000\r\n\r\nRemoving range from the stylesheets doesn't make sense; styles like Armenian *are only defined* over certain ranges. The rule can technically generate higher values, but it would just be total nonsense. If you wanted UAs to be able to do better than the specified range, that's something we could do with an explicit allowance, but the rule as written needs 'range'.\r\n\r\n\u003e (3) move range and fallback to level 4, and stylesheet authors would just have to define numbering (or use predefined numbering) if they needed higher values - without requiring the UA to fail at 10,000.\r\n\r\nSo what do you get when you do use a larger number than it's intended for? Just a really really huge representation? That seems like a bad thing to have happen by default.\r\n\r\n----\r\n\r\nWe also still need some rule for what happens when a counter style simply *can't* generate a representation for a particular value, like an additive style where all the weights are even (can't generate reprs for odd values). This falls back to decimal today, and I can't see any other possible way to do this.","bodyHTML":"\u003cblockquote\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003e(2) remove range properties from the normative stylesheets and allow UAs to do better than 10,000\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003c/blockquote\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eRemoving range from the stylesheets doesn't make sense; styles like Armenian \u003cem\u003eare only defined\u003c/em\u003e over certain ranges. The rule can technically generate higher values, but it would just be total nonsense. If you wanted UAs to be able to do better than the specified range, that's something we could do with an explicit allowance, but the rule as written needs 'range'.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cblockquote\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003e(3) move range and fallback to level 4, and stylesheet authors would just have to define numbering (or use predefined numbering) if they needed higher values - without requiring the UA to fail at 10,000.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003c/blockquote\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eSo what do you get when you do use a larger number than it's intended for? Just a really really huge representation? That seems like a bad thing to have happen by default.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003chr\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eWe also still need some rule for what happens when a counter style simply \u003cem\u003ecan't\u003c/em\u003e generate a representation for a particular value, like an additive style where all the weights are even (can't generate reprs for odd values). This falls back to decimal today, and I can't see any other possible way to do this.\u003c/p\u003e","bodyVersion":"a30420e195d9c2a32f7e533ad7d2218ad4d5fa788b2846d2a11e7e7ec86eba9f","viewerCanUpdate":false,"url":"https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2479#issuecomment-377018237","createdAt":"2018-03-28T20:05:35Z","authorAssociation":"MEMBER","viewerCanDelete":false,"viewerCanMinimize":false,"viewerCanReport":false,"viewerCanReportToMaintainer":false,"viewerCanBlockFromOrg":false,"viewerCanUnblockFromOrg":false,"isHidden":false,"minimizedReason":null,"showSpammyBadge":false,"createdViaEmail":false,"authorToRepoOwnerSponsorship":null,"repository":{"id":"MDEwOlJlcG9zaXRvcnk5MjUyMjY4","name":"csswg-drafts","owner":{"__typename":"Organization","id":"MDEyOk9yZ2FuaXphdGlvbjM3OTIxNg==","login":"w3c","url":"https://github.com/w3c"},"isPrivate":false,"slashCommandsEnabled":false,"nameWithOwner":"w3c/csswg-drafts","databaseId":9252268},"__isComment":"IssueComment","viewerCanReadUserContentEdits":true,"lastEditedAt":null,"lastUserContentEdit":null,"__isReactable":"IssueComment","reactionGroups":[{"content":"THUMBS_UP","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"THUMBS_DOWN","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"LAUGH","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"HOORAY","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"CONFUSED","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"HEART","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"ROCKET","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"EYES","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}}],"__isNode":"IssueComment"},"cursor":"Y3Vyc29yOnYyOpPPAAABYm43NpgAqTM3NzAxODIzNw=="},{"node":{"__typename":"IssueComment","__isIssueTimelineItems":"IssueComment","databaseId":377021370,"viewerDidAuthor":false,"issue":{"author":{"__typename":"User","login":"liamquin","id":"MDQ6VXNlcjgyNTg1MzU="},"id":"MDU6SXNzdWUzMDkyMzcyNTM=","number":2479,"locked":false,"databaseId":309237253},"author":{"__typename":"User","login":"liamquin","avatarUrl":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/8258535?u=a2623562190e461c0a8ba4774bcb3fbead8fbf26\u0026v=4","id":"MDQ6VXNlcjgyNTg1MzU="},"id":"MDEyOklzc3VlQ29tbWVudDM3NzAyMTM3MA==","body":"On Wed, 2018-03-28 at 13:05 -0700, Tab Atkins Jr. wrote:\n\n\u003e Removing range from the stylesheets doesn't make sense; styles like\n\u003e Armenian *are only defined* over certain ranges. The rule can\n\u003e technically generate higher values, but it would just be total\n\u003e nonsense. If you wanted UAs to be able to do better than the\n\u003e specified range, that's something we could do with an explicit\n\u003e allowance, but the rule as written needs 'range'.\n\nSure - you end up with really insanely long long values if you try \u0026 go\ntoo much higher. I'm trying to explore ways to avoid falling back to\nroman where it's not needed, e.g. by allowing better behaviour if a UA\nknows how to count higher, in a way that won't cause backward compat\nproblems later if the stylesheets are extended to higher numbers and\npeople were relying on fallback to roman.\n\nAdding higher numbers to Armenian actually looks doable with the\ncurrent rule if I understand Armeniannumbers correctly - the larger\nnumbers have a bar over them like medieval roman numerals - although\nyou still run out eventually of course, and have to have lots of\nrepeats, so it's not a solution.\n\n\n\u003e We also still need some rule for what happens when a counter style\n\u003e simply *can't* generate a representation for a particular value, like\n\u003e an additive style where all the weights are even (can't generate\n\u003e reprs for odd values). This falls back to decimal today, and I can't\n\u003e see any other possible way to do this.\n\nI can't either - as Henry Spencer said, if you lie to the compiler, it\nwill get its revenge. If the UA *can't* do better, if there's no right\nanswer, all the answers are wrong. Falling back to \"number out of\nrange\" in the user's language might be an improvement actually.\n\n\n-- \nLiam Quin, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/\nStaff contact for Verifiable Claims WG, SVG WG, XQuery WG\nImproving Web Advertising: https://www.w3.org/community/web-adv/\nPersonal: awesome vintage art: http://www.fromoldbooks.org/\n","bodyHTML":"\u003cdiv class=\"email-quoted-reply\"\u003eOn Wed, 2018-03-28 at 13:05 -0700, Tab Atkins Jr. wrote:\n Removing range from the stylesheets doesn't make sense; styles like\n Armenian *are only defined* over certain ranges. The rule can\n technically generate higher values, but it would just be total\n nonsense. If you wanted UAs to be able to do better than the\n specified range, that's something we could do with an explicit\n allowance, but the rule as written needs 'range'.\u003c/div\u003e\n\u003cdiv class=\"email-fragment\"\u003eSure - you end up with really insanely long long values if you try \u0026amp; go\ntoo much higher. I'm trying to explore ways to avoid falling back to\nroman where it's not needed, e.g. by allowing better behaviour if a UA\nknows how to count higher, in a way that won't cause backward compat\nproblems later if the stylesheets are extended to higher numbers and\npeople were relying on fallback to roman.\n\nAdding higher numbers to Armenian actually looks doable with the\ncurrent rule if I understand Armeniannumbers correctly - the larger\nnumbers have a bar over them like medieval roman numerals - although\nyou still run out eventually of course, and have to have lots of\nrepeats, so it's not a solution.\u003c/div\u003e\n\u003cdiv class=\"email-quoted-reply\"\u003e We also still need some rule for what happens when a counter style\n simply *can't* generate a representation for a particular value, like\n an additive style where all the weights are even (can't generate\n reprs for odd values). This falls back to decimal today, and I can't\n see any other possible way to do this.\u003c/div\u003e\n\u003cdiv class=\"email-fragment\"\u003eI can't either - as Henry Spencer said, if you lie to the compiler, it\nwill get its revenge. If the UA *can't* do better, if there's no right\nanswer, all the answers are wrong. Falling back to \"number out of\nrange\" in the user's language might be an improvement actually.\u003c/div\u003e\n\u003cspan class=\"email-hidden-toggle\"\u003e\u003ca href=\"#\"\u003e…\u003c/a\u003e\u003c/span\u003e\u003cdiv class=\"email-hidden-reply\"\u003e\n\u003cdiv class=\"email-signature-reply\"\u003e-- \nLiam Quin, W3C, \u003ca href=\"http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/\"\u003ehttp://www.w3.org/People/Quin/\u003c/a\u003e\nStaff contact for Verifiable Claims WG, SVG WG, XQuery WG\nImproving Web Advertising: \u003ca href=\"https://www.w3.org/community/web-adv/\"\u003ehttps://www.w3.org/community/web-adv/\u003c/a\u003e\nPersonal: awesome vintage art: \u003ca href=\"http://www.fromoldbooks.org/\"\u003ehttp://www.fromoldbooks.org/\u003c/a\u003e\n\u003c/div\u003e\n\u003c/div\u003e","bodyVersion":"57178a1e9c5d99697891894d42e37b4c54ee0041a6df77a70c1a66081a9ad141","viewerCanUpdate":false,"url":"https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2479#issuecomment-377021370","createdAt":"2018-03-28T20:16:02Z","authorAssociation":"NONE","viewerCanDelete":false,"viewerCanMinimize":false,"viewerCanReport":false,"viewerCanReportToMaintainer":false,"viewerCanBlockFromOrg":false,"viewerCanUnblockFromOrg":false,"isHidden":false,"minimizedReason":null,"showSpammyBadge":false,"createdViaEmail":true,"authorToRepoOwnerSponsorship":null,"repository":{"id":"MDEwOlJlcG9zaXRvcnk5MjUyMjY4","name":"csswg-drafts","owner":{"__typename":"Organization","id":"MDEyOk9yZ2FuaXphdGlvbjM3OTIxNg==","login":"w3c","url":"https://github.com/w3c"},"isPrivate":false,"slashCommandsEnabled":false,"nameWithOwner":"w3c/csswg-drafts","databaseId":9252268},"__isComment":"IssueComment","viewerCanReadUserContentEdits":true,"lastEditedAt":null,"lastUserContentEdit":null,"__isReactable":"IssueComment","reactionGroups":[{"content":"THUMBS_UP","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"THUMBS_DOWN","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"LAUGH","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"HOORAY","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"CONFUSED","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"HEART","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"ROCKET","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"EYES","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}}],"__isNode":"IssueComment"},"cursor":"Y3Vyc29yOnYyOpPPAAABYm5Ax9AAqTM3NzAyMTM3MA=="},{"node":{"__typename":"IssueComment","__isIssueTimelineItems":"IssueComment","databaseId":377025139,"viewerDidAuthor":false,"issue":{"author":{"__typename":"User","login":"liamquin","id":"MDQ6VXNlcjgyNTg1MzU="},"id":"MDU6SXNzdWUzMDkyMzcyNTM=","number":2479,"locked":false,"databaseId":309237253},"author":{"__typename":"User","login":"tabatkins","avatarUrl":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/682840?v=4","id":"MDQ6VXNlcjY4Mjg0MA=="},"id":"MDEyOklzc3VlQ29tbWVudDM3NzAyNTEzOQ==","body":"\u003e Adding higher numbers to Armenian actually looks doable with the\r\ncurrent rule\r\n\r\nAgain, we *could* allow that if we wanted with explicit callouts - we already do that with Hebrew (check the end of [section 6.1](https://drafts.csswg.org/css-counter-styles/#simple-numeric)), we just require that they reflect the expanded range correctly.\r\n\r\nHowever, it makes testing more difficult, for obvious reasons.\r\n\r\n\u003e Falling back to \"number out of\r\nrange\" in the user's language might be an improvement actually.\r\n\r\nI strongly disagree that refusing to render at all is an improvement over just rendering in decimal.","bodyHTML":"\u003cblockquote\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eAdding higher numbers to Armenian actually looks doable with the\u003cbr\u003e\ncurrent rule\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003c/blockquote\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eAgain, we \u003cem\u003ecould\u003c/em\u003e allow that if we wanted with explicit callouts - we already do that with Hebrew (check the end of \u003ca href=\"https://drafts.csswg.org/css-counter-styles/#simple-numeric\" rel=\"nofollow\"\u003esection 6.1\u003c/a\u003e), we just require that they reflect the expanded range correctly.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eHowever, it makes testing more difficult, for obvious reasons.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cblockquote\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eFalling back to \"number out of\u003cbr\u003e\nrange\" in the user's language might be an improvement actually.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003c/blockquote\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eI strongly disagree that refusing to render at all is an improvement over just rendering in decimal.\u003c/p\u003e","bodyVersion":"1db1d488f57f5a8749970a6a2ec8ee1221ff42024efe686252a8d3f68cadc7e7","viewerCanUpdate":false,"url":"https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2479#issuecomment-377025139","createdAt":"2018-03-28T20:28:45Z","authorAssociation":"MEMBER","viewerCanDelete":false,"viewerCanMinimize":false,"viewerCanReport":false,"viewerCanReportToMaintainer":false,"viewerCanBlockFromOrg":false,"viewerCanUnblockFromOrg":false,"isHidden":false,"minimizedReason":null,"showSpammyBadge":false,"createdViaEmail":false,"authorToRepoOwnerSponsorship":null,"repository":{"id":"MDEwOlJlcG9zaXRvcnk5MjUyMjY4","name":"csswg-drafts","owner":{"__typename":"Organization","id":"MDEyOk9yZ2FuaXphdGlvbjM3OTIxNg==","login":"w3c","url":"https://github.com/w3c"},"isPrivate":false,"slashCommandsEnabled":false,"nameWithOwner":"w3c/csswg-drafts","databaseId":9252268},"__isComment":"IssueComment","viewerCanReadUserContentEdits":true,"lastEditedAt":null,"lastUserContentEdit":null,"__isReactable":"IssueComment","reactionGroups":[{"content":"THUMBS_UP","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"THUMBS_DOWN","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"LAUGH","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"HOORAY","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"CONFUSED","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"HEART","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"ROCKET","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"EYES","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}}],"__isNode":"IssueComment"},"cursor":"Y3Vyc29yOnYyOpPPAAABYm5MbEgAqTM3NzAyNTEzOQ=="},{"node":{"__typename":"LabeledEvent","__isIssueTimelineItems":"LabeledEvent","__isTimelineEvent":"LabeledEvent","databaseId":1546517201,"createdAt":"2018-03-28T20:28:52Z","actor":{"__typename":"User","login":"tabatkins","id":"MDQ6VXNlcjY4Mjg0MA==","__isActor":"User","avatarUrl":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/682840?s=64\u0026v=4"},"label":{"id":"MDU6TGFiZWwzODE4ODg2Nzk=","nameHTML":"css-counter-styles-3","name":"css-counter-styles-3","color":"c5def5","description":"Current Work"},"__isNode":"LabeledEvent","id":"MDEyOkxhYmVsZWRFdmVudDE1NDY1MTcyMDE="},"cursor":"Y3Vyc29yOnYyOpPPAAABYm5Mh6ABqjE1NDY1MTcyMDE="},{"node":{"__typename":"IssueComment","__isIssueTimelineItems":"IssueComment","databaseId":377082846,"viewerDidAuthor":false,"issue":{"author":{"__typename":"User","login":"liamquin","id":"MDQ6VXNlcjgyNTg1MzU="},"id":"MDU6SXNzdWUzMDkyMzcyNTM=","number":2479,"locked":false,"databaseId":309237253},"author":{"__typename":"User","login":"liamquin","avatarUrl":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/8258535?u=a2623562190e461c0a8ba4774bcb3fbead8fbf26\u0026v=4","id":"MDQ6VXNlcjgyNTg1MzU="},"id":"MDEyOklzc3VlQ29tbWVudDM3NzA4Mjg0Ng==","body":"On Wed, 2018-03-28 at 13:28 -0700, Tab Atkins Jr. wrote:\n\u003e \u003e Adding higher numbers to Armenian actually looks doable with the\n\u003e \n\u003e current rule\n\u003e \n\u003e Again, we *could* allow that if we wanted with explicit callouts - we\n\u003e already do that with Hebrew\n\nYes, i saw that.\n\n\u003e However, it makes testing more difficult, for obvious reasons.\nYes, or easier, depending on what you test, but then there's a harder\nburden on interop for sure. But the result may be a lot better.\n\n\u003e \n\u003e \u003e Falling back to \"number out of\n\u003e \n\u003e range\" in the user's language might be an improvement actually.\n\u003e \n\u003e I strongly disagree that refusing to render at all is an improvement\n\u003e over just rendering in decimal.\n\ni can see argument both ways, and also for [3901020 out of range] with\nthe number in roman if we cant' repreent it in the user's language,\nwhich at least explains what's going on but will possibly break a\nlayout. But if it's relaying on unavailable numbers it's already\nbroken.\n\nI'm not going to push back further - i wanted to try \u0026 avoid the\nrequired fallback to arabic numerals. Actually, having said that, in\nthe case that the user's language isn't the same as the documents,\nfalling back to the user's number system might work too. For example, a\nJapanese reader looking at an Armenian document could then see numbers\nin Japanese. But it still doesn't help a Japanese speaker reading a\nJapanese document in a browser that can't count high enough.\n\n\n-- \nLiam Quin, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/\nStaff contact for Verifiable Claims WG, SVG WG, XQuery WG\nImproving Web Advertising: https://www.w3.org/community/web-adv/\nPersonal: awesome vintage art: http://www.fromoldbooks.org/\n","bodyHTML":"\u003cdiv class=\"email-quoted-reply\"\u003eOn Wed, 2018-03-28 at 13:28 -0700, Tab Atkins Jr. wrote:\n \u0026gt; Adding higher numbers to Armenian actually looks doable with the\n\n current rule\n\n Again, we *could* allow that if we wanted with explicit callouts - we\n already do that with Hebrew\u003c/div\u003e\n\u003cdiv class=\"email-fragment\"\u003eYes, i saw that.\u003c/div\u003e\n\u003cdiv class=\"email-quoted-reply\"\u003e However, it makes testing more difficult, for obvious reasons.\u003c/div\u003e\n\u003cdiv class=\"email-fragment\"\u003eYes, or easier, depending on what you test, but then there's a harder\nburden on interop for sure. But the result may be a lot better.\u003c/div\u003e\n\u003cdiv class=\"email-quoted-reply\"\u003e\n \u0026gt; Falling back to \"number out of\n\n range\" in the user's language might be an improvement actually.\n\n I strongly disagree that refusing to render at all is an improvement\n over just rendering in decimal.\u003c/div\u003e\n\u003cdiv class=\"email-fragment\"\u003ei can see argument both ways, and also for [3901020 out of range] with\nthe number in roman if we cant' repreent it in the user's language,\nwhich at least explains what's going on but will possibly break a\nlayout. But if it's relaying on unavailable numbers it's already\nbroken.\n\nI'm not going to push back further - i wanted to try \u0026amp; avoid the\nrequired fallback to arabic numerals. Actually, having said that, in\nthe case that the user's language isn't the same as the documents,\nfalling back to the user's number system might work too. For example, a\nJapanese reader looking at an Armenian document could then see numbers\nin Japanese. But it still doesn't help a Japanese speaker reading a\nJapanese document in a browser that can't count high enough.\u003c/div\u003e\n\u003cspan class=\"email-hidden-toggle\"\u003e\u003ca href=\"#\"\u003e…\u003c/a\u003e\u003c/span\u003e\u003cdiv class=\"email-hidden-reply\"\u003e\n\u003cdiv class=\"email-signature-reply\"\u003e-- \nLiam Quin, W3C, \u003ca href=\"http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/\"\u003ehttp://www.w3.org/People/Quin/\u003c/a\u003e\nStaff contact for Verifiable Claims WG, SVG WG, XQuery WG\nImproving Web Advertising: \u003ca href=\"https://www.w3.org/community/web-adv/\"\u003ehttps://www.w3.org/community/web-adv/\u003c/a\u003e\nPersonal: awesome vintage art: \u003ca href=\"http://www.fromoldbooks.org/\"\u003ehttp://www.fromoldbooks.org/\u003c/a\u003e\n\u003c/div\u003e\n\u003c/div\u003e","bodyVersion":"709894b0aecdecc631642fe21cfaa43d27e3f296bd2035874e2d76d723673386","viewerCanUpdate":false,"url":"https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2479#issuecomment-377082846","createdAt":"2018-03-29T00:33:37Z","authorAssociation":"NONE","viewerCanDelete":false,"viewerCanMinimize":false,"viewerCanReport":false,"viewerCanReportToMaintainer":false,"viewerCanBlockFromOrg":false,"viewerCanUnblockFromOrg":false,"isHidden":false,"minimizedReason":null,"showSpammyBadge":false,"createdViaEmail":true,"authorToRepoOwnerSponsorship":null,"repository":{"id":"MDEwOlJlcG9zaXRvcnk5MjUyMjY4","name":"csswg-drafts","owner":{"__typename":"Organization","id":"MDEyOk9yZ2FuaXphdGlvbjM3OTIxNg==","login":"w3c","url":"https://github.com/w3c"},"isPrivate":false,"slashCommandsEnabled":false,"nameWithOwner":"w3c/csswg-drafts","databaseId":9252268},"__isComment":"IssueComment","viewerCanReadUserContentEdits":true,"lastEditedAt":null,"lastUserContentEdit":null,"__isReactable":"IssueComment","reactionGroups":[{"content":"THUMBS_UP","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"THUMBS_DOWN","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"LAUGH","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"HOORAY","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"CONFUSED","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"HEART","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"ROCKET","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"EYES","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}}],"__isNode":"IssueComment"},"cursor":"Y3Vyc29yOnYyOpPPAAABYm8smugAqTM3NzA4Mjg0Ng=="},{"node":{"__typename":"IssueComment","__isIssueTimelineItems":"IssueComment","databaseId":377111996,"viewerDidAuthor":false,"issue":{"author":{"__typename":"User","login":"liamquin","id":"MDQ6VXNlcjgyNTg1MzU="},"id":"MDU6SXNzdWUzMDkyMzcyNTM=","number":2479,"locked":false,"databaseId":309237253},"author":{"__typename":"User","login":"frivoal","avatarUrl":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/113268?u=dba0a73d683a9db9cf6dfd6660a306e802d4c07e\u0026v=4","id":"MDQ6VXNlcjExMzI2OA=="},"id":"MDEyOklzc3VlQ29tbWVudDM3NzExMTk5Ng==","body":"\u003e Actually, having said that, in the case that the user's language isn't the same as the documents, falling back to the user's number system might work too.\r\n\r\nI would push back against that. This introduces a risk that authors may accidentally depend on the language of their computer to get the expected results, forget to language tag their pages appropriately, and then having the pages do \"the wrong thing\" when viewed from a different computer. Whether we always fall back to the same thing, or to something that's language dependent, I don't have a strong opinion. But if it is language dependent, it should be dependent on the language in the document, not in the environment.","bodyHTML":"\u003cblockquote\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eActually, having said that, in the case that the user's language isn't the same as the documents, falling back to the user's number system might work too.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003c/blockquote\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eI would push back against that. This introduces a risk that authors may accidentally depend on the language of their computer to get the expected results, forget to language tag their pages appropriately, and then having the pages do \"the wrong thing\" when viewed from a different computer. Whether we always fall back to the same thing, or to something that's language dependent, I don't have a strong opinion. But if it is language dependent, it should be dependent on the language in the document, not in the environment.\u003c/p\u003e","bodyVersion":"6b7d7087897af8b9bd4ecc7dfb9257c7232ff4b2bb626a527f7b3b0509ff0c5d","viewerCanUpdate":false,"url":"https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2479#issuecomment-377111996","createdAt":"2018-03-29T03:45:06Z","authorAssociation":"COLLABORATOR","viewerCanDelete":false,"viewerCanMinimize":false,"viewerCanReport":false,"viewerCanReportToMaintainer":false,"viewerCanBlockFromOrg":false,"viewerCanUnblockFromOrg":false,"isHidden":false,"minimizedReason":null,"showSpammyBadge":false,"createdViaEmail":false,"authorToRepoOwnerSponsorship":null,"repository":{"id":"MDEwOlJlcG9zaXRvcnk5MjUyMjY4","name":"csswg-drafts","owner":{"__typename":"Organization","id":"MDEyOk9yZ2FuaXphdGlvbjM3OTIxNg==","login":"w3c","url":"https://github.com/w3c"},"isPrivate":false,"slashCommandsEnabled":false,"nameWithOwner":"w3c/csswg-drafts","databaseId":9252268},"__isComment":"IssueComment","viewerCanReadUserContentEdits":true,"lastEditedAt":null,"lastUserContentEdit":null,"__isReactable":"IssueComment","reactionGroups":[{"content":"THUMBS_UP","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"THUMBS_DOWN","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"LAUGH","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"HOORAY","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"CONFUSED","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"HEART","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"ROCKET","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"EYES","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}}],"__isNode":"IssueComment"},"cursor":"Y3Vyc29yOnYyOpPPAAABYm_b6dAAqTM3NzExMTk5Ng=="},{"node":{"__typename":"IssueComment","__isIssueTimelineItems":"IssueComment","databaseId":377190712,"viewerDidAuthor":false,"issue":{"author":{"__typename":"User","login":"liamquin","id":"MDQ6VXNlcjgyNTg1MzU="},"id":"MDU6SXNzdWUzMDkyMzcyNTM=","number":2479,"locked":false,"databaseId":309237253},"author":{"__typename":"User","login":"upsuper","avatarUrl":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/333750?u=651316a0bc85f3978374a78ad6606030ce20be1f\u0026v=4","id":"MDQ6VXNlcjMzMzc1MA=="},"id":"MDEyOklzc3VlQ29tbWVudDM3NzE5MDcxMg==","body":"\u003e The normative stylesheet limits a bunch of languages to -9999 ... +9999, e.g. Armenian, and uses a single rule so that user agents are required to fall back to decimal. This is also true for Hebrew, Arabic, and CJK scripts, where roman decimal numbers don't use the same script (or direction?).\r\n\r\nFWIW, Firefox support hebrew in [1, 999999], and complex CJK styles for the whole number range we can count (range of signed 32bit integer). And that is allowed by the spec. Also, CJK scripts fallback to `cjk-decimal` rather than `decimal` for non-negatives.\r\n\r\nAnd I agree with what @tabatkins said.\r\n\r\nIf you are concerning that some counter styles may look weird when they go out of the range, someone can probably create something similar to `cjk-decimal` to cover the whole range using the same style of characters. Not sure how other people would feel about creating nonexisting numeric system just for fallback...","bodyHTML":"\u003cblockquote\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eThe normative stylesheet limits a bunch of languages to -9999 ... +9999, e.g. Armenian, and uses a single rule so that user agents are required to fall back to decimal. This is also true for Hebrew, Arabic, and CJK scripts, where roman decimal numbers don't use the same script (or direction?).\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003c/blockquote\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eFWIW, Firefox support hebrew in [1, 999999], and complex CJK styles for the whole number range we can count (range of signed 32bit integer). And that is allowed by the spec. Also, CJK scripts fallback to \u003ccode class=\"notranslate\"\u003ecjk-decimal\u003c/code\u003e rather than \u003ccode class=\"notranslate\"\u003edecimal\u003c/code\u003e for non-negatives.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eAnd I agree with what \u003ca class=\"user-mention notranslate\" data-hovercard-type=\"user\" data-hovercard-url=\"/users/tabatkins/hovercard\" data-octo-click=\"hovercard-link-click\" data-octo-dimensions=\"link_type:self\" href=\"https://github.com/tabatkins\"\u003e@tabatkins\u003c/a\u003e said.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eIf you are concerning that some counter styles may look weird when they go out of the range, someone can probably create something similar to \u003ccode class=\"notranslate\"\u003ecjk-decimal\u003c/code\u003e to cover the whole range using the same style of characters. Not sure how other people would feel about creating nonexisting numeric system just for fallback...\u003c/p\u003e","bodyVersion":"d953f53ee1b6d271f68737cec1981e5045fe393a503b9fbc7c2c162fb4250ce9","viewerCanUpdate":false,"url":"https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2479#issuecomment-377190712","createdAt":"2018-03-29T10:17:08Z","authorAssociation":"MEMBER","viewerCanDelete":false,"viewerCanMinimize":false,"viewerCanReport":false,"viewerCanReportToMaintainer":false,"viewerCanBlockFromOrg":false,"viewerCanUnblockFromOrg":false,"isHidden":false,"minimizedReason":null,"showSpammyBadge":false,"createdViaEmail":false,"authorToRepoOwnerSponsorship":null,"repository":{"id":"MDEwOlJlcG9zaXRvcnk5MjUyMjY4","name":"csswg-drafts","owner":{"__typename":"Organization","id":"MDEyOk9yZ2FuaXphdGlvbjM3OTIxNg==","login":"w3c","url":"https://github.com/w3c"},"isPrivate":false,"slashCommandsEnabled":false,"nameWithOwner":"w3c/csswg-drafts","databaseId":9252268},"__isComment":"IssueComment","viewerCanReadUserContentEdits":true,"lastEditedAt":null,"lastUserContentEdit":null,"__isReactable":"IssueComment","reactionGroups":[{"content":"THUMBS_UP","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"THUMBS_DOWN","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"LAUGH","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"HOORAY","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"CONFUSED","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"HEART","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"ROCKET","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"EYES","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}}],"__isNode":"IssueComment"},"cursor":"Y3Vyc29yOnYyOpPPAAABYnFC1KAAqTM3NzE5MDcxMg=="},{"node":{"__typename":"IssueComment","__isIssueTimelineItems":"IssueComment","databaseId":377337993,"viewerDidAuthor":false,"issue":{"author":{"__typename":"User","login":"liamquin","id":"MDQ6VXNlcjgyNTg1MzU="},"id":"MDU6SXNzdWUzMDkyMzcyNTM=","number":2479,"locked":false,"databaseId":309237253},"author":{"__typename":"User","login":"fantasai","avatarUrl":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/725717?u=d55083686ee8c23a0547d1ab2fb3981ee180287e\u0026v=4","id":"MDQ6VXNlcjcyNTcxNw=="},"id":"MDEyOklzc3VlQ29tbWVudDM3NzMzNzk5Mw==","body":"@liamquin Falling back to decimal is far less disruptive than reporting an error. From the reader's perspective, decimal might look odd in certain context, but is fine: no information is lost. Error messages might be useful for authors, but not for readers--they are useless to harmful for readers: the reader doesn't care to see the message, but if it takes up unexpected amounts of space, then it disrupts the layout. As for why decimal, European numbers are practically universal these days. And as @frivoal writes, it's important for interop that we do not depend on OS language.","bodyHTML":"\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003e\u003ca class=\"user-mention notranslate\" data-hovercard-type=\"user\" data-hovercard-url=\"/users/liamquin/hovercard\" data-octo-click=\"hovercard-link-click\" data-octo-dimensions=\"link_type:self\" href=\"https://github.com/liamquin\"\u003e@liamquin\u003c/a\u003e Falling back to decimal is far less disruptive than reporting an error. From the reader's perspective, decimal might look odd in certain context, but is fine: no information is lost. Error messages might be useful for authors, but not for readers--they are useless to harmful for readers: the reader doesn't care to see the message, but if it takes up unexpected amounts of space, then it disrupts the layout. As for why decimal, European numbers are practically universal these days. And as \u003ca class=\"user-mention notranslate\" data-hovercard-type=\"user\" data-hovercard-url=\"/users/frivoal/hovercard\" data-octo-click=\"hovercard-link-click\" data-octo-dimensions=\"link_type:self\" href=\"https://github.com/frivoal\"\u003e@frivoal\u003c/a\u003e writes, it's important for interop that we do not depend on OS language.\u003c/p\u003e","bodyVersion":"66df420f3db35c2e9ca408651da10d4c10ef66d033681c594f2fb964c9e30c16","viewerCanUpdate":false,"url":"https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2479#issuecomment-377337993","createdAt":"2018-03-29T18:58:32Z","authorAssociation":"COLLABORATOR","viewerCanDelete":false,"viewerCanMinimize":false,"viewerCanReport":false,"viewerCanReportToMaintainer":false,"viewerCanBlockFromOrg":false,"viewerCanUnblockFromOrg":false,"isHidden":false,"minimizedReason":null,"showSpammyBadge":false,"createdViaEmail":false,"authorToRepoOwnerSponsorship":null,"repository":{"id":"MDEwOlJlcG9zaXRvcnk5MjUyMjY4","name":"csswg-drafts","owner":{"__typename":"Organization","id":"MDEyOk9yZ2FuaXphdGlvbjM3OTIxNg==","login":"w3c","url":"https://github.com/w3c"},"isPrivate":false,"slashCommandsEnabled":false,"nameWithOwner":"w3c/csswg-drafts","databaseId":9252268},"__isComment":"IssueComment","viewerCanReadUserContentEdits":true,"lastEditedAt":null,"lastUserContentEdit":null,"__isReactable":"IssueComment","reactionGroups":[{"content":"THUMBS_UP","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":1,"nodes":[{"__typename":"User","login":"Crissov","__isNode":"User","id":"MDQ6VXNlcjYyMDAxODU="}]}},{"content":"THUMBS_DOWN","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"LAUGH","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"HOORAY","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"CONFUSED","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"HEART","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"ROCKET","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"EYES","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}}],"__isNode":"IssueComment"},"cursor":"Y3Vyc29yOnYyOpPPAAABYnMgL8AAqTM3NzMzNzk5Mw=="},{"node":{"__typename":"IssueComment","__isIssueTimelineItems":"IssueComment","databaseId":377430501,"viewerDidAuthor":false,"issue":{"author":{"__typename":"User","login":"liamquin","id":"MDQ6VXNlcjgyNTg1MzU="},"id":"MDU6SXNzdWUzMDkyMzcyNTM=","number":2479,"locked":false,"databaseId":309237253},"author":{"__typename":"User","login":"liamquin","avatarUrl":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/8258535?u=a2623562190e461c0a8ba4774bcb3fbead8fbf26\u0026v=4","id":"MDQ6VXNlcjgyNTg1MzU="},"id":"MDEyOklzc3VlQ29tbWVudDM3NzQzMDUwMQ==","body":"On Thu, 2018-03-29 at 18:58 +0000, fantasai wrote:\n\u003e @liamquin Falling back to decimal is far less disruptive than\n\u003e reporting an error.\n\nFair enough. Sometimes commenting on github is more painful than a 5-\nminute conversation. On the other hand i'd still like to see the UA\nallowed (as per Hebrew) to go beyond 10,000 wihout resorting to\ndecimal, even if it complicated testing.\n\n-- \nLiam Quin, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/\nStaff contact for Verifiable Claims WG, SVG WG, XQuery WG\nImproving Web Advertising: https://www.w3.org/community/web-adv/\nPersonal: awesome vintage art: http://www.fromoldbooks.org/\n","bodyHTML":"\u003cdiv class=\"email-quoted-reply\"\u003eOn Thu, 2018-03-29 at 18:58 +0000, fantasai wrote:\n \u003ca class=\"user-mention\" href=\"https://github.com/liamquin\"\u003e@liamquin\u003c/a\u003e Falling back to decimal is far less disruptive than\n reporting an error.\u003c/div\u003e\n\u003cdiv class=\"email-fragment\"\u003eFair enough. Sometimes commenting on github is more painful than a 5-\nminute conversation. On the other hand i'd still like to see the UA\nallowed (as per Hebrew) to go beyond 10,000 wihout resorting to\ndecimal, even if it complicated testing.\u003c/div\u003e\n\u003cspan class=\"email-hidden-toggle\"\u003e\u003ca href=\"#\"\u003e…\u003c/a\u003e\u003c/span\u003e\u003cdiv class=\"email-hidden-reply\"\u003e\n\u003cdiv class=\"email-signature-reply\"\u003e-- \nLiam Quin, W3C, \u003ca href=\"http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/\"\u003ehttp://www.w3.org/People/Quin/\u003c/a\u003e\nStaff contact for Verifiable Claims WG, SVG WG, XQuery WG\nImproving Web Advertising: \u003ca href=\"https://www.w3.org/community/web-adv/\"\u003ehttps://www.w3.org/community/web-adv/\u003c/a\u003e\nPersonal: awesome vintage art: \u003ca href=\"http://www.fromoldbooks.org/\"\u003ehttp://www.fromoldbooks.org/\u003c/a\u003e\n\u003c/div\u003e\n\u003c/div\u003e","bodyVersion":"aecdefb409216ec1bf9f7efcfb78b28cd70704a60575d138585268e1ed7d1632","viewerCanUpdate":false,"url":"https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2479#issuecomment-377430501","createdAt":"2018-03-30T02:45:40Z","authorAssociation":"NONE","viewerCanDelete":false,"viewerCanMinimize":false,"viewerCanReport":false,"viewerCanReportToMaintainer":false,"viewerCanBlockFromOrg":false,"viewerCanUnblockFromOrg":false,"isHidden":false,"minimizedReason":null,"showSpammyBadge":false,"createdViaEmail":true,"authorToRepoOwnerSponsorship":null,"repository":{"id":"MDEwOlJlcG9zaXRvcnk5MjUyMjY4","name":"csswg-drafts","owner":{"__typename":"Organization","id":"MDEyOk9yZ2FuaXphdGlvbjM3OTIxNg==","login":"w3c","url":"https://github.com/w3c"},"isPrivate":false,"slashCommandsEnabled":false,"nameWithOwner":"w3c/csswg-drafts","databaseId":9252268},"__isComment":"IssueComment","viewerCanReadUserContentEdits":true,"lastEditedAt":null,"lastUserContentEdit":null,"__isReactable":"IssueComment","reactionGroups":[{"content":"THUMBS_UP","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"THUMBS_DOWN","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"LAUGH","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"HOORAY","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"CONFUSED","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"HEART","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"ROCKET","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"EYES","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}}],"__isNode":"IssueComment"},"cursor":"Y3Vyc29yOnYyOpPPAAABYnTL3CAAqTM3NzQzMDUwMQ=="},{"node":{"__typename":"IssueComment","__isIssueTimelineItems":"IssueComment","databaseId":377432131,"viewerDidAuthor":false,"issue":{"author":{"__typename":"User","login":"liamquin","id":"MDQ6VXNlcjgyNTg1MzU="},"id":"MDU6SXNzdWUzMDkyMzcyNTM=","number":2479,"locked":false,"databaseId":309237253},"author":{"__typename":"User","login":"upsuper","avatarUrl":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/333750?u=651316a0bc85f3978374a78ad6606030ce20be1f\u0026v=4","id":"MDQ6VXNlcjMzMzc1MA=="},"id":"MDEyOklzc3VlQ29tbWVudDM3NzQzMjEzMQ==","body":"\u003e On the other hand i'd still like to see the UA allowed (as per Hebrew) to go beyond 10,000 wihout resorting to decimal, even if it complicated testing.\r\n\r\nIt is allowed, and at least Firefox does so, as I've mentioned in [my previous comment](https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2479#issuecomment-377190712).","bodyHTML":"\u003cblockquote\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eOn the other hand i'd still like to see the UA allowed (as per Hebrew) to go beyond 10,000 wihout resorting to decimal, even if it complicated testing.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003c/blockquote\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eIt is allowed, and at least Firefox does so, as I've mentioned in \u003ca href=\"https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2479#issuecomment-377190712\" data-hovercard-type=\"issue\" data-hovercard-url=\"/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2479/hovercard\"\u003emy previous comment\u003c/a\u003e.\u003c/p\u003e","bodyVersion":"691ceb7abafe707c207ee90b8594c413f285b73520ff06217c96319ed28ad2b2","viewerCanUpdate":false,"url":"https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2479#issuecomment-377432131","createdAt":"2018-03-30T02:58:58Z","authorAssociation":"MEMBER","viewerCanDelete":false,"viewerCanMinimize":false,"viewerCanReport":false,"viewerCanReportToMaintainer":false,"viewerCanBlockFromOrg":false,"viewerCanUnblockFromOrg":false,"isHidden":false,"minimizedReason":null,"showSpammyBadge":false,"createdViaEmail":false,"authorToRepoOwnerSponsorship":null,"repository":{"id":"MDEwOlJlcG9zaXRvcnk5MjUyMjY4","name":"csswg-drafts","owner":{"__typename":"Organization","id":"MDEyOk9yZ2FuaXphdGlvbjM3OTIxNg==","login":"w3c","url":"https://github.com/w3c"},"isPrivate":false,"slashCommandsEnabled":false,"nameWithOwner":"w3c/csswg-drafts","databaseId":9252268},"__isComment":"IssueComment","viewerCanReadUserContentEdits":true,"lastEditedAt":null,"lastUserContentEdit":null,"__isReactable":"IssueComment","reactionGroups":[{"content":"THUMBS_UP","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"THUMBS_DOWN","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"LAUGH","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"HOORAY","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"CONFUSED","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"HEART","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"ROCKET","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"EYES","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}}],"__isNode":"IssueComment"},"cursor":"Y3Vyc29yOnYyOpPPAAABYnTYCVAAqTM3NzQzMjEzMQ=="},{"node":{"__typename":"IssueComment","__isIssueTimelineItems":"IssueComment","databaseId":377445388,"viewerDidAuthor":false,"issue":{"author":{"__typename":"User","login":"liamquin","id":"MDQ6VXNlcjgyNTg1MzU="},"id":"MDU6SXNzdWUzMDkyMzcyNTM=","number":2479,"locked":false,"databaseId":309237253},"author":{"__typename":"User","login":"liamquin","avatarUrl":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/8258535?u=a2623562190e461c0a8ba4774bcb3fbead8fbf26\u0026v=4","id":"MDQ6VXNlcjgyNTg1MzU="},"id":"MDEyOklzc3VlQ29tbWVudDM3NzQ0NTM4OA==","body":"@upsuper yes, it's allowed for Hebrew and CJK. I'm asking that it be allowed for other languages.","bodyHTML":"\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003e\u003ca class=\"user-mention notranslate\" data-hovercard-type=\"user\" data-hovercard-url=\"/users/upsuper/hovercard\" data-octo-click=\"hovercard-link-click\" data-octo-dimensions=\"link_type:self\" href=\"https://github.com/upsuper\"\u003e@upsuper\u003c/a\u003e yes, it's allowed for Hebrew and CJK. I'm asking that it be allowed for other languages.\u003c/p\u003e","bodyVersion":"8a74894f6c2dd28f64538ab4be36a1e71e3d5d967a9b171e1e97733dce5d887f","viewerCanUpdate":false,"url":"https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2479#issuecomment-377445388","createdAt":"2018-03-30T04:59:01Z","authorAssociation":"NONE","viewerCanDelete":false,"viewerCanMinimize":false,"viewerCanReport":false,"viewerCanReportToMaintainer":false,"viewerCanBlockFromOrg":false,"viewerCanUnblockFromOrg":false,"isHidden":false,"minimizedReason":null,"showSpammyBadge":false,"createdViaEmail":false,"authorToRepoOwnerSponsorship":null,"repository":{"id":"MDEwOlJlcG9zaXRvcnk5MjUyMjY4","name":"csswg-drafts","owner":{"__typename":"Organization","id":"MDEyOk9yZ2FuaXphdGlvbjM3OTIxNg==","login":"w3c","url":"https://github.com/w3c"},"isPrivate":false,"slashCommandsEnabled":false,"nameWithOwner":"w3c/csswg-drafts","databaseId":9252268},"__isComment":"IssueComment","viewerCanReadUserContentEdits":true,"lastEditedAt":null,"lastUserContentEdit":null,"__isReactable":"IssueComment","reactionGroups":[{"content":"THUMBS_UP","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"THUMBS_DOWN","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"LAUGH","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"HOORAY","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"CONFUSED","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"HEART","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"ROCKET","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}},{"content":"EYES","viewerHasReacted":false,"reactors":{"totalCount":0,"nodes":[]}}],"__isNode":"IssueComment"},"cursor":"Y3Vyc29yOnYyOpPPAAABYnVF8ggAqTM3NzQ0NTM4OA=="},{"node":{"__typename":"IssueComment","__isIssueTimelineItems":"IssueComment","databaseId":840851200,"viewerDidAuthor":false,"issue":{"author":{"__typename":"User","login":"liamquin","id":"MDQ6VXNlcjgyNTg1MzU="},"id":"MDU6SXNzdWUzMDkyMzcyNTM=","number":2479,"locked":false,"databaseId":309237253},"author":{"__typename":"User","login":"tabatkins","avatarUrl":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/682840?v=4","id":"MDQ6VXNlcjY4Mjg0MA=="},"id":"MDEyOklzc3VlQ29tbWVudDg0MDg1MTIwMA==","body":"Both Hebrew and the CJK styles have the \"UAs *can* implement higher if they want\" because there *is* a reasonable way to number at least somewhat higher in those systems, it just doesn't have widespread agreement (CJK) and/or is complex (Hebrew). In both cases, particularly in CJK, I'd *like* everyone to implement the same range and have it specified in the spec.\r\n\r\nOther styles, based on my current knowledge, do *not* have a reasonable display strategy for higher values. Some can be done (anything additive), but it's doesn't produce reasonable results (a very very long Armenian string, for example).\r\n\r\nIf someone has evidence of a higher range being reasonably supported in the wild, and can tell me how it works, I'm happy to adjust the spec to account for it. I'm not willing, however, to offer a blanket \"or you can do whatever you want, if you think it's right\" for values outside the range.","bodyHTML":"\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eBoth Hebrew and the CJK styles have the \"UAs \u003cem\u003ecan\u003c/em\u003e implement higher if they want\" because there \u003cem\u003eis\u003c/em\u003e a reasonable way to number at least somewhat higher in those systems, it just doesn't have widespread agreement (CJK) and/or is complex (Hebrew). In both cases, particularly in CJK, I'd \u003cem\u003elike\u003c/em\u003e everyone to implement the same range and have it specified in the spec.\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eOther styles, based on my current knowledge, do \u003cem\u003enot\u003c/em\u003e have a reasonable display strategy for higher values. Some can be done (anything additive), but it's doesn't produce reasonable results (a very very long Armenian string, for example).\u003c/p\u003e\n\u003cp dir=\"auto\"\u003eIf someone has evidence of a higher range being reasonably supported in the wild, and can tell me how it works, I'm happy to adjust the spec to account for it. I'm not willing, however, to offer a blanket \"or you can do whatever you want, if you think it's right\" for values outside the 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class="Box-sc-g0xbh4-0 koxHLL ActivityHeader-module__narrowViewportWrapper--Hjl75"><div class="Box-sc-g0xbh4-0 dqmClk"><a class="Box-sc-g0xbh4-0 cRhwji prc-Link-Link-85e08" href="https://github.com/liamquin" data-hovercard-url="/users/liamquin/hovercard" data-testid="issue-body-header-author">liamquin</a></div><div class="Box-sc-g0xbh4-0 bJQcYY ActivityHeader-module__footer--FVHp7"><span>opened </span><a class="Box-sc-g0xbh4-0 bjFvWy prc-Link-Link-85e08" href="https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2479#issue-309237253" data-testid="issue-body-header-link"><relative-time sx="[object Object]" class="sc-aXZVg gcWyXp">on <!-- -->Mar 28, 2018</relative-time></a></div></div><div class="Box-sc-g0xbh4-0 kgTqOk ActivityHeader-module__narrowViewportWrapper--Hjl75"><div class="Box-sc-g0xbh4-0 izrTon ActivityHeader-module__edits--LwHTE"></div><div class="Box-sc-g0xbh4-0 kpoUe"><div class="Box-sc-g0xbh4-0 ezcJRX"></div><div class="Box-sc-g0xbh4-0 dnyPuu"><button data-component="IconButton" 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NewMarkdownViewer-module__safe-html-box--cRsz0"><p dir="auto"><a href="https://drafts.csswg.org/css-counter-styles/#counter-style-range" rel="nofollow">https://drafts.csswg.org/css-counter-styles/#counter-style-range</a></p> <p dir="auto">The range property falls back (eventually, through other fallbacks as needed) to decimal.</p> <p dir="auto">The normative stylesheet limits a bunch of languages to -9999 ... +9999, e.g. Armenian, and uses a single rule so that user agents are required to fall back to decimal. This is also true for Hebrew, Arabic, and CJK scripts, where roman decimal numbers don't use the same script (or direction?).</p> <p dir="auto">The range feature has practical uses that are helpful, but requiring that the UA fall back to roman numerals isn't one of them.</p> <p dir="auto">We have only one implementation of range, since only firefox implements @counter-style at all.</p> <p dir="auto">I propose<br> (1) change range so that it only falls back to explicitly mentioned fallback styles (so that you can chain rules, or say you want to fall back to Roman) - if you specify range without a fallback, the UA is to ignore the range property. You can still get the old (current) behaviour by specifying fallback to roman.</p> <p dir="auto">This will give some awkward results for numbers > 10,000 but see the next part of this proposal...</p> <p dir="auto">(2) remove range properties from the normative stylesheets and allow UAs to do better than 10,000</p> <p dir="auto">optional:<br> (3) move range and fallback to level 4, and stylesheet authors would just have to define numbering (or use predefined numbering) if they needed higher values - without requiring the UA to fail at 10,000.</p> <p dir="auto">(4) move the corresponding tests for range/fallback (maybe a dozen or so) to level 4</p> <p dir="auto">Of course, we still only have one implementation of the basic counter-style at-rule as far as i can tell, but this would simplify the spec, remove some tests that actually fail everywhere, and allow better results than the normative stylesheet allows.</p></div></div><div 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