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podcast Claude Lefort et le 20e siècle"> <meta name="twitter:card" content="summary_large_image"> <meta name="twitter:site" content="@franceculture"> <meta property="og:type" content="article"> <meta property="og:locale" content="fr_FR"> <meta property="og:site_name" content="France Culture"> <meta name="description" content="AUDIO • Claude Lefort et le 20e siècle, épisode 4/4 : Lefort après Arendt : la perversion de la loi dans le totalitarisme. Une série inédite proposée par France Culture. Écoutez Avec philosophie, et découvrez nos podcasts en ligne."> <meta property="og:description" content="AUDIO • Claude Lefort et le 20e siècle, épisode 4/4 : Lefort après Arendt : la perversion de la loi dans le totalitarisme. Une série inédite proposée par France Culture. Écoutez Avec philosophie, et découvrez nos podcasts en ligne."> <meta name="twitter:description" content="AUDIO • Claude Lefort et le 20e siècle, épisode 4/4 : Lefort après Arendt : la perversion de la loi dans le totalitarisme. Une série inédite proposée par France Culture. 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class="CoverEpisode-title qg-tt3 svelte-r5ms83">Épisode 4/4 : Lefort après Arendt : la perversion de la loi dans le totalitarisme</h1> <span class="CoverEpisode-date qg-tx4 svelte-r5ms83">Jeudi 21 novembre 2024 </span> <div class="CoverEpisode-cta svelte-r5ms83" data-brand="franceculture"><div class="CoverEpisode-play qg-brand-button"> <button class="Button light primary large svelte-1weqwpy" data-track-click-type="replayButton" type="button" disabled aria-disabled data-testid="replay-button-aod" aria-label="Lecture"><span slot="icon-left"> <span class="qg-sr-only">Indisponible</span> <svg aria-hidden="true" focusable="false" data-testid="icon-playFilled" class="svelte-1cvh6z9"><use href="#playFilled"></use></svg></span> <span slot="extra-content"><div style="display: inline-flex;">écouter <span style="text-transform: lowercase;">(58 min)</span></div></span> </button></div> <div class="CoverEpisode-bookmark"> <button class="Button dark secondary large circular svelte-1weqwpy" 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ratio"></picture></div> <div class="ParentShowCard-data svelte-1ci3jk4"><h2 class="svelte-1ci3jk4"><span class="ParentShowCard-firstLine qg-tx4 svelte-1ci3jk4">Provenant du podcast</span> <span class="ParentShowCard-secondLine qg-st4 svelte-1ci3jk4"><a href="/franceculture/podcasts/avec-philosophie" aria-label="Voir le podcast Avec philosophie" data-testid="link" class=" underline-hover svelte-ovv3j3">Avec philosophie</a></span></h2></div> <div class="ParentShowCard-ctaWrapper svelte-1ci3jk4"><div class="Tooltip context-menu svelte-3pzr4v"> <div class="Tooltip-activator-container"><div class="ContactButton" slot="activator"> <button class="Button light secondary medium svelte-1weqwpy" title="Contacter l'émission" type="button" aria-disabled="false" data-testid="ButtonPodcastContact"><span slot="icon-left"><svg class="icon-svg"> <svg aria-hidden="true" focusable="false" data-testid="icon-chat" class="svelte-1cvh6z9"><use 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Retour sur le communisme", Claude Lefort affirme qu’Hannah Arendt est l’auteur dont il se sent le plus proche. Comme elle, il distingue nazisme et stalinisme, tout en soulignant certains traits communs qui définissent un nouveau type de régime : le totalitarisme du 20e siècle.</h2> <div class="Expression-guests svelte-xlisip" data-testid="Expression-guests"><div class="Expression-guestsTitle qg-tt5 svelte-xlisip">Avec</div> <ul class="svelte-xlisip"><li class="qg-tx2 qg-xtra-lh svelte-xlisip"><a href="/personnes/martine-leibovici" data-testid="link" class=" underline-hover svelte-ovv3j3"><span class="qg-st4">Martine Leibovici</span> </a> Maîtresse de conférences émérite en philosophie politique à l’université Paris Cité </li><li class="qg-tx2 qg-xtra-lh svelte-xlisip"><span class="qg-st4">Olivier Jouanjan</span> Professeur de droit public à l’Université Paris Panthéon Assas. </li></ul></div></div> <div class="ExpressionBodyJson ExpressionBodyJson-franceculture g-block-margin svelte-xlisip"><div class="HtmlBodyWrapper station-franceculture " data-brand="franceculture" style="--filledQuote: url('/client/immutable/assets/quoteFilled.CHiZHkDC.svg');"><div class=""><h2 class="qg-st2 ">Stalinisme et nazisme, analysés à partir de la loi</h2><p class="PopSlotParagraph qg-tx2 qg-xtra-lh svelte-1xznlfb">Tout comme Hannah Arendt, Claude Lefort analyse le nazsime et le stalinisme en soulignant les rapprochements. Comme l’indique Martine Leibovici, dans <em>La Complication</em>, l’idée de Claude Lefort est qu’il y a une “<em>perversion de l'idée de loi dans le droit nazi et pour le totalitarisme en général”</em>. Pour Lefort, “<em>le droit est porteur (...) d'un type de société</em>”. Ainsi, “<em>quand on analyse les régimes totalitaires, il faut dégager une ‘intention anonyme’</em>” : “<em>c'est-à-dire que quand on analyse ce qui se passe, donc, véritablement, quand on est dans le concret, on peut dégager une intention anonyme ou encore un projet qui n'est pas énoncé comme tel mais qui se dégage véritablement des faits, des choses concrètes</em>”.</p> <div class="Bounce svelte-k0g7f5 hasAudio"><div class="Bounce-left svelte-k0g7f5"><div class="Bounce-info qg-st4 svelte-k0g7f5">À écouter : <a href="/franceculture/podcasts/avec-philosophie/le-corps-anime-comme-metaphore-du-politique-4636463" aria-label="Le corps animé comme métaphore du politique" data-testid="link" class=" underline-hover svelte-ovv3j3">Le corps animé comme métaphore du politique</a></div> <div class="Bounce-meta svelte-k0g7f5"><span class="Bounce-conceptTitle qg-tx5 svelte-k0g7f5">Avec philosophie</span> <span class="g-separator svelte-k0g7f5"></span> <button class="Button light tertiary medium svelte-1weqwpy" type="button" aria-disabled="false" data-testid="BookmarkToggle"> <svg aria-hidden="true" focusable="false" data-testid="icon-bookmark" class="svelte-1cvh6z9"><use href="/client/immutable/assets/bookmark.D5umPYLy.svg#bookmark"></use></svg> Écouter plus tard </button></div></div> <div class="Bounce-playerButton svelte-k0g7f5"> <button class="Button dark primary small isExpandable svelte-1weqwpy" data-track-click-type="replayButton" type="button" aria-disabled="false" data-testid="replay-button"><span slot="icon-left"> <span class="qg-sr-only">Lecture</span> <svg aria-hidden="true" focusable="false" data-testid="icon-playFilled" class="svelte-1cvh6z9"><use href="#playFilled"></use></svg></span> <span slot="extra-content">écouter</span> </button> <span class="Duration light qg-tx5 svelte-1i8r9u">58 min </span></div> </div><h2 class="qg-st2 ">La perversion de l’idée de droit</h2><p class="PopSlotParagraph qg-tx2 qg-xtra-lh svelte-1xznlfb">Pour Lefort, dans le totalitarisme, il y a “<em>perversion de l’idée de droit</em>”. Olivier Jouanjan explique : “<em>la perversion, c'est de faire de n'importe quelle réglementation une pseudo-loi</em>”, or, “<em>la loi prescrit des formes, mais la réglementation ne prescrit que des formalités”.</em> Surtout, <em>“Le fureur est la loi vivante”. Cela signifie que “les fonctionnaires et ceux qui doivent obéir à la loi vivante du Führer (...) sont obligés de se dire ‘Qu'aurait fait le Führer dans la situation dans laquelle je me trouve ?</em>’”. Ils sont dans une sorte “<em>d’obéissance présomptive</em>” : il “<em>font une présomption de ce que serait la volonté du Führer</em>”. La déformation du droit et la perversion de la loi est donc là.</p> <div class="PopSlot inread svelte-1nn8uhn" style="--mobile-minWidth: 300px; --mobile-minHeight: 250px; --tablet-minWidth: 300px; --tablet-minHeight: 250px; --desktop-minWidth: 533px; --desktop-minHeight: 300px;"><div class="PopSlot-label svelte-1nn8uhn"><span class="qg-tx5 svelte-1nn8uhn">Publicité</span> <svg class="PopSlot-svg svelte-1nn8uhn"><use href="#logoRF"></use></svg></div> <div id="inread" class="PopSlot-slot dfp-slot svelte-1nn8uhn" data-format="inread"></div></div><h2 class="qg-st2 ">Pour en parler</h2><p class="PopSlotParagraph qg-tx2 qg-xtra-lh svelte-1xznlfb"><strong>Martine Leibovici</strong>, maîtresse de conférences émérite en philosophie politique à l’université Paris Cité.</p> <ul><li>Co-direction avec Aurore Mréjen,  <a href="https://www.editionsdelherne.com/publication/cahier-hannah-arendt/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="" data-testid="link"><em>Cahier Hannah Arendt</em>,</a> L'Herne, collection “Cahiers de L'Herne”, 2021. </li><li>Avec Anne-Marie Roviello,  <a href="https://editionskime.fr/produit/le-pervertissement-totalitaire-la-banalite-du-mal-selon-hannah-arendt/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="" data-testid="link"><em>Le pervertissement totalitaire. La banalité du mal selon Hannah Arendt</em></a>, éditions Kimé, 2017. </li><li> <a href="https://www.laboretfides.com/fr_fr/index.php/hannah-arendt-et-la-tradition-juive.html" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="" data-testid="link"><em>Hannah Arendt et la tradition juive. Le judaïsme à l’épreuve de la sécularisation</em></a>, Éditions Labor et Fides 2003. </li></ul><p class="PopSlotParagraph qg-tx2 qg-xtra-lh svelte-1xznlfb"><strong>Olivier Jouanjan</strong>, Professeur de droit public</p> <ul><li> <a href="https://www.puf.com/justifier-linjustifiable" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="" data-testid="link"><em>Justifier l'injustifiable. L'ordre du discours juridique nazi</em>,</a> PUF, 2017 </li><li> <a href="https://www.puf.com/une-histoire-de-la-pensee-juridique-en-allemagne-1800-1918" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="" data-testid="link"><em>Une histoire de la pensée juridique en Allemagne 1800-1918</em></a><em>,</em> PUF, 2005 </li></ul><p class="PopSlotParagraph qg-tx2 qg-xtra-lh svelte-1xznlfb"> <a href="https://po-et-sie.fr/le-sommaire-du-dernier-numero-paru/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="" data-testid="link">Nous vous invitons à consulter le numéro 190 de la revue Po&sie publié cette semaine.</a></p> <h2 class="qg-st2 ">Références sonores</h2><ul><li>Archive de Claude Lefort, Répliques, France Culture, 28.04.2007 </li><li>Lecture par Nicolas Berger d'extraits de Claude Lefort, <em>La Complication</em> (1999), Seuil, p. 211-215 </li><li>Lecture par Nicolas Berger d'un extrait de Hannah Arendt, <em>Eichmann à Jérusalem</em>, (trad. Anne Guérin et Michelle-Irène Brudny, revue par Martine Leibovici, dans H. Arendt, <em>Les origines du totalitarisme. Eichmann à Jérusalem</em>, Quarto Gallimard, 2002, p. 1162-63 </li></ul></div> </div></div> <div class="ExpressionReferences-chronicles g-block-margin svelte-xlisip"></div> <div class="ExpressionReferences svelte-xlisip"> <div class="ExpressionReferences-themes g-block-margin"><div class="Tags"> <nav><div class="TagsList svelte-1ll2msf"><ul class="TagsList-list qg-tx4 svelte-1ll2msf" data-testid="tags"><li class="TagsList-item svelte-1ll2msf"><div class="qg-tx4 light svelte-gvokpe"><a href="/sciences-savoirs" data-testid="link" class=" svelte-ovv3j3">Sciences et Savoirs</a></div> </li><li class="TagsList-item svelte-1ll2msf"><div class="qg-tx4 light svelte-gvokpe"><a href="/sciences-savoirs/philosophie" data-testid="link" class=" svelte-ovv3j3">Philosophie</a></div> </li></ul> </div></nav></div></div></div></div> <aside class="Expression-sidebar svelte-xlisip"><div class="PopSlot pave_haut svelte-1nn8uhn" style="--mobile-minWidth: 0; --mobile-minHeight: 0; --tablet-minWidth: 0; 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Muhlmann" loading="lazy" fetchpriority="low" data-testid="image-tag" style="--_image-preview:url('data:image/svg+xml,<svg height="100%" width="100%" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><defs><filter id="f1" x="0" y="0" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><feGaussianBlur in="SourceGraphic" stdDeviation="30" /></filter></defs><rect width="100%" height="100%" fill="%23undefined" filter="url(%23f1)" /></svg>');" aria-hidden="true" class="svelte-1n5zs1o ratio"></picture> </div> <div class="CardPerson-details svelte-12wu147"><div class="CardPerson-name qg-st5 svelte-12wu147"><a href="/personnes/geraldine-muhlmann" data-testid="link" class="expandToParent underline-hover svelte-ovv3j3">Géraldine Muhlmann</a></div> <div class="CardPerson-role qg-tx4 svelte-12wu147">Production</div></div></div> </li> <li class="CardPerson svelte-12wu147"><div class="CardPerson-wrapper horizontal svelte-12wu147"><div class="CardPerson-fallbackIcon svelte-12wu147"> <svg aria-hidden="true" focusable="false" data-testid="icon-personFilled" class="svelte-1cvh6z9"><use href="/client/immutable/assets/personFilled.BM1ODQCy.svg#personFilled"></use></svg></div> <div class="CardPerson-details svelte-12wu147"><div class="CardPerson-name qg-st5 svelte-12wu147"><a href="/personnes/antoine-ravon" data-testid="link" class="expandToParent underline-hover svelte-ovv3j3">Antoine Ravon</a></div> <div class="CardPerson-role qg-tx4 svelte-12wu147">Production déléguée</div></div></div> </li> <li class="CardPerson svelte-12wu147"><div class="CardPerson-wrapper horizontal svelte-12wu147"><div class="CardPerson-fallbackIcon svelte-12wu147"> <svg aria-hidden="true" focusable="false" data-testid="icon-personFilled" class="svelte-1cvh6z9"><use href="/client/immutable/assets/personFilled.BM1ODQCy.svg#personFilled"></use></svg></div> <div class="CardPerson-details svelte-12wu147"><div class="CardPerson-name qg-st5 svelte-12wu147"><a href="/personnes/anna-pheulpin" data-testid="link" class="expandToParent underline-hover svelte-ovv3j3">Anna Pheulpin</a></div> <div class="CardPerson-role qg-tx4 svelte-12wu147">Collaboration</div></div></div> </li> <li class="CardPerson svelte-12wu147"><div class="CardPerson-wrapper horizontal svelte-12wu147"><div class="CardPerson-fallbackIcon svelte-12wu147"> <svg aria-hidden="true" focusable="false" data-testid="icon-personFilled" class="svelte-1cvh6z9"><use href="/client/immutable/assets/personFilled.BM1ODQCy.svg#personFilled"></use></svg></div> <div class="CardPerson-details svelte-12wu147"><div class="CardPerson-name qg-st5 svelte-12wu147"><a href="/personnes/carla-michel" data-testid="link" class="expandToParent underline-hover svelte-ovv3j3">Carla Michel</a></div> <div class="CardPerson-role qg-tx4 svelte-12wu147">Collaboration</div></div></div> </li> <li class="CardPerson svelte-12wu147"><div class="CardPerson-wrapper horizontal svelte-12wu147"><div class="CardPerson-fallbackIcon svelte-12wu147"> <svg aria-hidden="true" focusable="false" data-testid="icon-personFilled" class="svelte-1cvh6z9"><use href="/client/immutable/assets/personFilled.BM1ODQCy.svg#personFilled"></use></svg></div> <div class="CardPerson-details svelte-12wu147"><div class="CardPerson-name qg-st5 svelte-12wu147"><a href="/personnes/shaima-giboire" data-testid="link" class="expandToParent underline-hover svelte-ovv3j3">Shaïma Giboire</a></div> <div class="CardPerson-role qg-tx4 svelte-12wu147">Attaché(e) de production</div></div></div> </li> <li class="CardPerson svelte-12wu147"><div class="CardPerson-wrapper horizontal svelte-12wu147"><div class="CardPerson-fallbackIcon svelte-12wu147"> <svg aria-hidden="true" focusable="false" data-testid="icon-personFilled" class="svelte-1cvh6z9"><use href="/client/immutable/assets/personFilled.BM1ODQCy.svg#personFilled"></use></svg></div> <div class="CardPerson-details svelte-12wu147"><div class="CardPerson-name qg-st5 svelte-12wu147"><a href="/personnes/nicolas-berger" data-testid="link" class="expandToParent underline-hover svelte-ovv3j3">Nicolas Berger</a></div> <div class="CardPerson-role qg-tx4 svelte-12wu147">Réalisation</div></div></div> </li> <li class="CardPerson svelte-12wu147"><div class="CardPerson-wrapper horizontal svelte-12wu147"><div class="CardPerson-fallbackIcon svelte-12wu147"> <svg aria-hidden="true" focusable="false" data-testid="icon-personFilled" class="svelte-1cvh6z9"><use href="/client/immutable/assets/personFilled.BM1ODQCy.svg#personFilled"></use></svg></div> <div class="CardPerson-details svelte-12wu147"><div class="CardPerson-name qg-st5 svelte-12wu147">Philippine de Belloy</div> <div class="CardPerson-role qg-tx4 svelte-12wu147">Stagiaire</div></div></div> </li></ul> </div></div> <div class="g-block-margin Expression-carouselContainer"><aside class="CardCarousel-wrapper"><div class="CardCarousel-top g-container svelte-em0yst"><div class="MeaCarouselHeader svelte-p8wm5c" data-testid="MeaCarouselHeader"><div class="SectionTitle svelte-ngwok2"><div 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dark primary medium circular svelte-1weqwpy" type="button" aria-disabled="false" aria-label="élément précédent"> <svg aria-hidden="true" focusable="false" data-testid="icon-chevronTop" class="svelte-1cvh6z9"><use href="/client/immutable/assets/chevronTop.B9vVM_Th.svg#chevronTop"></use></svg> </button></div> <ul class=" hasRightOverlay svelte-m0l2a5"> <li aria-hidden="true" class="svelte-1que890"> <div class="CardMedia vertical image svelte-sqdmug" data-brand="franceculture"><div class="CardMedia-visual image svelte-sqdmug"><div class="CardVisual svelte-ccycl2" data-track-click-type="image"><picture style="--_base-ratio:16 / 9;" class="ratio svelte-1n5zs1o"> <source type="image/webp" srcset="https://www.radiofrance.fr/s3/cruiser-production-eu3/2024/11/121b9441-f966-4938-8872-42f7ce43a071/560x315_sc_socialismeoubarbarie.webp" sizes="" class="svelte-1n5zs1o"> <source data-testid="image-src" 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href="/franceculture/podcasts/avec-philosophie/de-socialisme-ou-barbarie-a-un-homme-en-trop-le-stalinisme-decortique-4722696" data-testid="link" class="expandToParent underline-hover svelte-ovv3j3">Épisode 1/4 : De "Socialisme ou barbarie" à "Un homme en trop" : le stalinisme décortiqué</a> </div> <div class="CardMedia-details svelte-sqdmug"> <div class="DefaultDetails svelte-jq3mtv"><div class="DefaultDetails-icon svelte-jq3mtv"> <button class="Button light primary small circular svelte-1weqwpy" type="button" disabled aria-disabled data-testid="play-button" aria-label="Écouter Épisode 1/4 : De "Socialisme ou barbarie" à "Un homme en trop" : le stalinisme décortiqué"><span slot="icon-left" class="svelte-13eov3i"> <span class="qg-sr-only">Indisponible</span> <svg aria-hidden="true" focusable="false" data-testid="icon-playFilled" class="svelte-1cvh6z9"><use href="#playFilled"></use></svg></span> </button></div> <div class="DefaultDetails-text svelte-jq3mtv"> <div class="DefaultDetails-secondLine svelte-jq3mtv"><p class="CardText qg-tx5 svelte-rxs35k">18 nov.</p> <p class="CardText qg-tx5 svelte-rxs35k"> • </p> <p class="CardText qg-tx5 svelte-rxs35k">58 min</p> </div></div> </div> </div> </div> </li> <li aria-hidden="true" class="svelte-1que890"> <div class="CardMedia vertical image svelte-sqdmug" data-brand="franceculture"><div class="CardMedia-visual image svelte-sqdmug"><div class="CardVisual svelte-ccycl2" data-track-click-type="image"><picture style="--_base-ratio:16 / 9;" class="ratio svelte-1n5zs1o"> <source type="image/webp" srcset="https://www.radiofrance.fr/s3/cruiser-production-eu3/2024/11/f7aa330f-feb7-4b73-bc4a-f16f7116f5ae/560x315_sc_gettyimages-1276681117.webp" sizes="" class="svelte-1n5zs1o"> <source data-testid="image-src" srcset="https://www.radiofrance.fr/s3/cruiser-production-eu3/2024/11/f7aa330f-feb7-4b73-bc4a-f16f7116f5ae/560x315_sc_gettyimages-1276681117.jpg" class="svelte-1n5zs1o"> <img src="https://www.radiofrance.fr/s3/cruiser-production-eu3/2024/11/f7aa330f-feb7-4b73-bc4a-f16f7116f5ae/560x315_sc_gettyimages-1276681117.jpg" width="225" height="400" alt="Hémicycle du Sénat français à Paris en 2020" loading="lazy" fetchpriority="low" data-testid="image-tag" style="--_image-preview:url('data:image/svg+xml,<svg height="100%" width="100%" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><defs><filter id="f1" x="0" y="0" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><feGaussianBlur in="SourceGraphic" stdDeviation="30" /></filter></defs><rect width="100%" height="100%" fill="%23080808" filter="url(%23f1)" /></svg>');" aria-hidden="true" class="svelte-1n5zs1o ratio"></picture> </div></div> <div class="CardTitle qg-st4 svelte-15fyv8v" data-track-click-type="text"><a href="/franceculture/podcasts/avec-philosophie/avec-philosophie-emission-du-mardi-19-novembre-2024-8209976" data-testid="link" class="expandToParent underline-hover svelte-ovv3j3">Épisode 2/4 : Pourquoi le lieu du pouvoir en démocratie est-il "vide" selon Lefort ?</a> </div> <div class="CardMedia-details svelte-sqdmug"> <div class="DefaultDetails svelte-jq3mtv"><div class="DefaultDetails-icon svelte-jq3mtv"> <button class="Button light primary small circular svelte-1weqwpy" type="button" disabled aria-disabled data-testid="play-button" aria-label="Écouter Épisode 2/4 : Pourquoi le lieu du pouvoir en démocratie est-il "vide" selon Lefort ?"><span slot="icon-left" class="svelte-13eov3i"> <span class="qg-sr-only">Indisponible</span> <svg aria-hidden="true" focusable="false" data-testid="icon-playFilled" class="svelte-1cvh6z9"><use href="#playFilled"></use></svg></span> </button></div> <div class="DefaultDetails-text svelte-jq3mtv"> <div class="DefaultDetails-secondLine svelte-jq3mtv"><p class="CardText qg-tx5 svelte-rxs35k">19 nov.</p> <p class="CardText qg-tx5 svelte-rxs35k"> • </p> <p class="CardText qg-tx5 svelte-rxs35k">58 min</p> </div></div> </div> </div> </div> </li> <li aria-hidden="true" class="svelte-1que890"> 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Retour sur le communisme\", Claude Lefort affirme qu’Hannah Arendt est l’auteur dont il se sent le plus proche. Comme elle, il distingue nazisme et stalinisme, tout en soulignant certains traits communs qui définissent un nouveau type de régime : le totalitarisme du 20e siècle.",publishedDate:1732179600,brandEnums:["FRANCECULTURE"],isPad:false,place:null,isExpired:false,printProgMusic:true,latestRediffusion:null,magnetothequeId:"2024C48904S0326",reactAvailable:false,bodyJson:[{type:"heading",level:2,value:"Stalinisme et nazisme, analysés à partir de la loi"},{type:"text",children:[{type:"text",value:"Tout comme Hannah Arendt, Claude Lefort analyse le nazsime et le stalinisme en soulignant les rapprochements. Comme l’indique Martine Leibovici, dans \u003Cem>La Complication\u003C/em>, l’idée de Claude Lefort est qu’il y a une “\u003Cem>perversion de l'idée de loi dans le droit nazi et pour le totalitarisme en général”\u003C/em>. Pour Lefort, “\u003Cem>le droit est porteur (...) d'un type de société\u003C/em>”. 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Olivier Jouanjan explique : “\u003Cem>la perversion, c'est de faire de n'importe quelle réglementation une pseudo-loi\u003C/em>”, or, “\u003Cem>la loi prescrit des formes, mais la réglementation ne prescrit que des formalités”.\u003C/em> Surtout, \u003Cem>“Le fureur est la loi vivante”. Cela signifie que “les fonctionnaires et ceux qui doivent obéir à la loi vivante du Führer (...) sont obligés de se dire ‘Qu'aurait fait le Führer dans la situation dans laquelle je me trouve ?\u003C/em>’”. Ils sont dans une sorte “\u003Cem>d’obéissance présomptive\u003C/em>” : il “\u003Cem>font une présomption de ce que serait la volonté du Führer\u003C/em>”. La déformation du droit et la perversion de la loi est donc là."}]},{type:"heading",level:2,value:"Pour en parler"},{type:"text",children:[{type:"text",value:"\u003Cstrong>Martine Leibovici\u003C/strong>, maîtresse de conférences émérite en philosophie politique à l’université Paris Cité."}]},{type:"list",ordered:false,children:[{type:"list_item",children:[{type:"text",value:"Co-direction avec Aurore Mréjen, "},{type:"link",data:{href:"https://www.editionsdelherne.com/publication/cahier-hannah-arendt/"},value:"\u003Cem>Cahier Hannah Arendt\u003C/em>,"},{type:"text",value:" L'Herne, collection “Cahiers de L'Herne”, 2021."}]},{type:"list_item",children:[{type:"text",value:"Avec Anne-Marie Roviello, "},{type:"link",data:{href:"https://editionskime.fr/produit/le-pervertissement-totalitaire-la-banalite-du-mal-selon-hannah-arendt/"},value:"\u003Cem>Le pervertissement totalitaire. La banalité du mal selon Hannah Arendt\u003C/em>"},{type:"text",value:", éditions Kimé, 2017."}]},{type:"list_item",children:[{type:"link",data:{href:"https://www.laboretfides.com/fr_fr/index.php/hannah-arendt-et-la-tradition-juive.html"},value:"\u003Cem>Hannah Arendt et la tradition juive. Le judaïsme à l’épreuve de la sécularisation\u003C/em>"},{type:"text",value:", Éditions Labor et Fides 2003."}]}]},{type:"text",children:[{type:"text",value:"\u003Cstrong>Olivier Jouanjan\u003C/strong>, Professeur de droit public"}]},{type:"list",ordered:false,children:[{type:"list_item",children:[{type:"link",data:{href:"https://www.puf.com/justifier-linjustifiable"},value:"\u003Cem>Justifier l'injustifiable. L'ordre du discours juridique nazi\u003C/em>,"},{type:"text",value:" PUF, 2017"}]},{type:"list_item",children:[{type:"link",data:{href:"https://www.puf.com/une-histoire-de-la-pensee-juridique-en-allemagne-1800-1918"},value:"\u003Cem>Une histoire de la pensée juridique en Allemagne 1800-1918\u003C/em>"},{type:"text",value:"\u003Cem>,\u003C/em> PUF, 2005"}]}]},{type:"text",children:[{type:"link",data:{href:"https://po-et-sie.fr/le-sommaire-du-dernier-numero-paru/"},value:"Nous vous invitons à consulter le numéro 190 de la revue Po&sie publié cette semaine."}]},{type:"heading",level:2,value:"Références sonores"},{type:"list",ordered:false,children:[{type:"list_item",children:[{type:"text",value:"Archive de Claude Lefort, Répliques, France Culture, 28.04.2007"}]},{type:"list_item",children:[{type:"text",value:"Lecture par Nicolas Berger d'extraits de Claude Lefort, \u003Cem>La Complication\u003C/em> (1999), Seuil, p. 211-215"}]},{type:"list_item",children:[{type:"text",value:"Lecture par Nicolas Berger d'un extrait de Hannah Arendt, \u003Cem>Eichmann à Jérusalem\u003C/em>, (trad. Anne Guérin et Michelle-Irène Brudny, revue par Martine Leibovici, dans H. Arendt, \u003Cem>Les origines du totalitarisme. 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