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id="toc-Everyone_loves_the_Gambia" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Everyone_loves_the_Gambia"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">5</span> <span>Everyone loves the Gambia</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Everyone_loves_the_Gambia-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Too_many_pictures" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Too_many_pictures"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">6</span> <span>Too many pictures</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Too_many_pictures-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-When_was_Kombo_St.Mary's_Division_created/split_off_from_the_Western_Division?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#When_was_Kombo_St.Mary's_Division_created/split_off_from_the_Western_Division?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">7</span> <span>When was Kombo St.Mary's Division created/split off from the Western Division?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">6 comments</span> <ul id="toc-When_was_Kombo_St.Mary's_Division_created/split_off_from_the_Western_Division?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Subdivisions_-or-_Divisions" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Subdivisions_-or-_Divisions"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">8</span> <span>Subdivisions -or- Divisions</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">7 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Subdivisions_-or-_Divisions-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Economy" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Economy"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">9</span> <span>Economy</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Economy-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Unsubstantiated_Claim" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Unsubstantiated_Claim"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">10</span> <span>Unsubstantiated Claim</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Unsubstantiated_Claim-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Area_size_discrepancy" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Area_size_discrepancy"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">11</span> <span>Area size discrepancy</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Area_size_discrepancy-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-National_Bird" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#National_Bird"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">12</span> <span>National Bird</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-National_Bird-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Jawara:_President_or_PM?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Jawara:_President_or_PM?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">13</span> <span>Jawara: President or PM?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Jawara:_President_or_PM?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Press_freedom" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Press_freedom"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">14</span> <span>Press freedom</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Press_freedom-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-January_2008_Requested_move" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#January_2008_Requested_move"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">15</span> <span>January 2008 Requested move</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">21 comments</span> <button aria-controls="toc-January_2008_Requested_move-sublist" class="cdx-button cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only vector-toc-toggle"> <span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-expand"></span> <span>Toggle January 2008 Requested move subsection</span> </button> <ul id="toc-January_2008_Requested_move-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> <li id="toc-Reasoning_for_the_proposed_move" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Reasoning_for_the_proposed_move"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">15.1</span> <span>Reasoning for the proposed move</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Reasoning_for_the_proposed_move-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Voting_/_Discussion" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Voting_/_Discussion"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">15.2</span> <span>Voting / Discussion</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Voting_/_Discussion-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> <li id="toc-In_favour" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-3"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#In_favour"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">15.2.1</span> <span>In favour</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-In_favour-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Opposed" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-3"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Opposed"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">15.2.2</span> <span>Opposed</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Opposed-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Republic_of_The_Gambia" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Republic_of_The_Gambia"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">16</span> <span>Republic of The Gambia</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Republic_of_The_Gambia-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Poll_on_name_formatting" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Poll_on_name_formatting"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">17</span> <span>Poll on name formatting</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">11 comments</span> <button aria-controls="toc-Poll_on_name_formatting-sublist" class="cdx-button cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only vector-toc-toggle"> <span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-expand"></span> <span>Toggle Poll on name formatting subsection</span> </button> <ul id="toc-Poll_on_name_formatting-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> <li id="toc-"The_Gambia"" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#"The_Gambia""> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">17.1</span> <span>"The Gambia"</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-"The_Gambia"-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-"the_Gambia"_2" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#"the_Gambia"_2"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">17.2</span> <span>"the Gambia"</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-"the_Gambia"_2-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Just_"Gambia"" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Just_"Gambia""> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">17.3</span> <span>Just "Gambia"</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Just_"Gambia"-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Related_discussion" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Related_discussion"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">17.4</span> <span>Related discussion</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Related_discussion-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Enclave" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Enclave"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">18</span> <span>Enclave</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Enclave-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-A_gambia" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#A_gambia"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">19</span> <span>A gambia</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-A_gambia-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-"Smallest_country_in_Africa"" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#"Smallest_country_in_Africa""> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">20</span> <span>"Smallest country in Africa"</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-"Smallest_country_in_Africa"-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Very_Incomplete" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Very_Incomplete"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">21</span> <span>Very Incomplete</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Very_Incomplete-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-About_Unlinking" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#About_Unlinking"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">22</span> <span>About Unlinking</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-About_Unlinking-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Rename_to_Gambia" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Rename_to_Gambia"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">23</span> <span>Rename to Gambia</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Rename_to_Gambia-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-the_Gambia,_Gambia_or_The_Gambia?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#the_Gambia,_Gambia_or_The_Gambia?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">24</span> <span>the Gambia, Gambia or The Gambia?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-the_Gambia,_Gambia_or_The_Gambia?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Lithuania" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Lithuania"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">25</span> <span>Lithuania</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Lithuania-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Call_for_editors_to_collaborate_on_a_new_African_history_Wikiproject" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Call_for_editors_to_collaborate_on_a_new_African_history_Wikiproject"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">26</span> <span>Call for editors to collaborate on a new African history Wikiproject</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Call_for_editors_to_collaborate_on_a_new_African_history_Wikiproject-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Requested_move" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Requested_move"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">27</span> <span>Requested move</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">16 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Requested_move-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Related_category_hierarchy_nominated_for_renaming" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Related_category_hierarchy_nominated_for_renaming"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">28</span> <span>Related category hierarchy nominated for renaming</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Related_category_hierarchy_nominated_for_renaming-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-RfC:_The_Gambia_or_the_Gambia" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#RfC:_The_Gambia_or_the_Gambia"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">29</span> <span>RfC: The Gambia or the Gambia</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">72 comments</span> <ul id="toc-RfC:_The_Gambia_or_the_Gambia-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </nav> </div> </div> <div class="mw-content-container"> <main id="content" class="mw-body"> <header class="mw-body-header vector-page-titlebar"> <nav aria-label="Contents" class="vector-toc-landmark"> <div id="vector-page-titlebar-toc" class="vector-dropdown vector-page-titlebar-toc vector-button-flush-left" > <input 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src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/40px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/60px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/80px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="200" data-file-height="200"/></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text" style="text-align:center">This is an <b><a href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page" title="Help:Archiving a talk page">archive</a></b> of past discussions about <a href="/wiki/The_Gambia" title="The Gambia">The Gambia</a>. <b>Do not edit the contents of this page.</b> If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the <a href="/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia" title="Talk:The Gambia">current talk page</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table> <table style="text-align:center;margin:0 auto 0.5em;max-width:20em;width:100%;width:-moz-available;width:-webkit-fill-available;width:stretch"><tbody><tr><td><span style="font-size:115%;"><a class="mw-selflink selflink">Archive 1</a></span></td><td><a href="/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_2" title="Talk:The Gambia/Archive 2">Archive 2</a></td></tr></tbody></table> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Language" data-mw-thread-id="h-Language-2005-11-08T20:58:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Language-2005-11-08T20:58:00.000Z"></span>Language<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Language-2005-11-08T20:58:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Fabhcún-2005-11-08T20:58:00.000Z-Language"></span>are all those languages offical or just English? <a href="/wiki/User:Fabhc%C3%BAn" title="User:Fabhcún">Fabhcún</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Fabhcún-2005-11-08T20:58:00.000Z-Language" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:58, 8 November 2005 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Fabhcún-2005-11-08T20:58:00.000Z-Language"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Fabhcún-2005-11-08T20:58:00.000Z-Language"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Reisio-2005-12-09T14:14:00.000Z-Fabhcún-2005-11-08T20:58:00.000Z"></span>CIA WFB claims only English is <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/ga.html">[1]</a> ¦ <a href="/wiki/User:Reisio" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Reisio">Reisio</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Reisio-2005-12-09T14:14:00.000Z-Fabhcún-2005-11-08T20:58:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:14, 9 December 2005 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Reisio-2005-12-09T14:14:00.000Z-Fabhcún-2005-11-08T20:58:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Reisio-2005-12-09T14:14:00.000Z-Fabhcún-2005-11-08T20:58:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Map_is_of_Gabon.." data-mw-thread-id="h-Map_is_of_Gabon..-2005-12-09T14:15:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Map_is_of_Gabon..-2005-12-09T14:15:00.000Z"></span>Map is of Gabon..<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Map_is_of_Gabon..-2005-12-09T14:15:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Reisio-2005-12-09T14:15:00.000Z-Map_is_of_Gabon.."></span>The map given is of the Gabon, for some strange reason. Not sure about copyright system and what maps could be used, but a correct one should be found. </p> <dl><dd>This seems to have been resolved. ¦ <a href="/wiki/User:Reisio" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Reisio">Reisio</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Reisio-2005-12-09T14:15:00.000Z-Map_is_of_Gabon.." class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:15, 9 December 2005 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Reisio-2005-12-09T14:15:00.000Z-Map_is_of_Gabon.."></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Reisio-2005-12-09T14:15:00.000Z-Map_is_of_Gabon.."></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Alex_Haley" data-mw-thread-id="h-Alex_Haley-2006-03-19T11:16:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Alex_Haley-2006-03-19T11:16:00.000Z"></span>Alex Haley<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Alex_Haley-2006-03-19T11:16:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Hughcharlesparker-2006-03-19T11:16:00.000Z-Alex_Haley"></span>I removed the line about Alex Haley - while I'm sure he'd appreciate the coverage, this sentence is about him, not about the Gambia. <a href="/wiki/User:Hughcharlesparker" title="User:Hughcharlesparker">Hughcharlesparker</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Hughcharlesparker-2006-03-19T11:16:00.000Z-Alex_Haley" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:16, 19 March 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Hughcharlesparker-2006-03-19T11:16:00.000Z-Alex_Haley"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Hughcharlesparker-2006-03-19T11:16:00.000Z-Alex_Haley"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Copied_content" data-mw-thread-id="h-Copied_content-2006-04-19T00:22:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Copied_content-2006-04-19T00:22:00.000Z"></span>Copied content<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Copied_content-2006-04-19T00:22:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-71.1.141.95-2006-04-19T00:22:00.000Z-Copied_content"></span>The entire section on economics seems to be lifted from here: <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/5459.htm">http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/5459.htm</a> </p><p>Not sure what the legality on that is... --<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:71.1.141.95&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:71.1.141.95 (page does not exist)">71.1.141.95</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-71.1.141.95-2006-04-19T00:22:00.000Z-Copied_content" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:22, 19 April 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-71.1.141.95-2006-04-19T00:22:00.000Z-Copied_content"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-71.1.141.95-2006-04-19T00:22:00.000Z-Copied_content"></span> </p> <dl><dd><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/dos/3797.htm"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Enlil_Ninlil-2006-07-04T00:37:00.000Z-71.1.141.95-2006-04-19T00:22:00.000Z"></span>Copyright</a> Here is the info, so apparently there is no coptright for this information, though some areas may not be accurate. <a href="/wiki/User:Enlil_Ninlil" title="User:Enlil Ninlil">Enlil Ninlil</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Enlil_Ninlil-2006-07-04T00:37:00.000Z-71.1.141.95-2006-04-19T00:22:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:37, 4 July 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Enlil_Ninlil-2006-07-04T00:37:00.000Z-71.1.141.95-2006-04-19T00:22:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Enlil_Ninlil-2006-07-04T00:37:00.000Z-71.1.141.95-2006-04-19T00:22:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Elinruby-2016-12-03T03:18:00.000Z-Enlil_Ninlil-2006-07-04T00:37:00.000Z"></span>everything published by the American federal government is copyright-free, although they do not want the materials to make it appear as though the US government is endorsing (whatever you are using the materials for). I am not certain whether the same applies to the state governments, but anything from the Department of State or the Library of Congress (for example) would be free to use. <a href="/wiki/User:Elinruby" title="User:Elinruby">Elinruby</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Elinruby" title="User talk:Elinruby">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Elinruby-2016-12-03T03:18:00.000Z-Enlil_Ninlil-2006-07-04T00:37:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:18, 3 December 2016 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Elinruby-2016-12-03T03:18:00.000Z-Enlil_Ninlil-2006-07-04T00:37:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Elinruby-2016-12-03T03:18:00.000Z-Enlil_Ninlil-2006-07-04T00:37:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Everyone_loves_the_Gambia" data-mw-thread-id="h-Everyone_loves_the_Gambia-2006-07-04T00:15:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Everyone_loves_the_Gambia-2006-07-04T00:15:00.000Z"></span>Everyone loves the Gambia<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Everyone_loves_the_Gambia-2006-07-04T00:15:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-NEMT-2006-07-04T00:15:00.000Z-Everyone_loves_the_Gambia"></span>According to "sights and sounds" on CNN, that is. --<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:NEMT&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:NEMT (page does not exist)">NEMT</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-NEMT-2006-07-04T00:15:00.000Z-Everyone_loves_the_Gambia" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:15, 4 July 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-NEMT-2006-07-04T00:15:00.000Z-Everyone_loves_the_Gambia"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-NEMT-2006-07-04T00:15:00.000Z-Everyone_loves_the_Gambia"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Adambisset-2006-08-24T16:02:00.000Z-Everyone_loves_the_Gambia"></span>Does anyone have a link to an online clip of that CNN promo? <a href="/wiki/User:Adambisset" title="User:Adambisset">adambisset</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Adambisset-2006-08-24T16:02:00.000Z-Everyone_loves_the_Gambia" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:02, 24 August 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Adambisset-2006-08-24T16:02:00.000Z-Everyone_loves_the_Gambia"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Adambisset-2006-08-24T16:02:00.000Z-Everyone_loves_the_Gambia"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Too_many_pictures" data-mw-thread-id="h-Too_many_pictures-2006-08-21T21:01:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Too_many_pictures-2006-08-21T21:01:00.000Z"></span>Too many pictures<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Too_many_pictures-2006-08-21T21:01:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AlbertR-2006-08-21T21:01:00.000Z-Too_many_pictures"></span>Is it just me, or does this page has a slight overabundance of pictures? <a href="/wiki/User:AlbertR" class="mw-redirect" title="User:AlbertR">Alr</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-AlbertR-2006-08-21T21:01:00.000Z-Too_many_pictures" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:01, 21 August 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AlbertR-2006-08-21T21:01:00.000Z-Too_many_pictures"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AlbertR-2006-08-21T21:01:00.000Z-Too_many_pictures"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mwahcysl-2009-01-04T21:26:00.000Z-Too_many_pictures"></span>On the contrary, I think there should be more pictures, considering not many people have been there or no what it is like. The more the merrier. </p> <dl><dd>The pictures need to be A) Proven as real, and B) Have copyright ownership. We will not allow false images to misdirect Christo-Americans against the cause of crushing terrorists.<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Mwahcysl&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Mwahcysl (page does not exist)">Mwahcysl</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mwahcysl&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Mwahcysl (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Mwahcysl-2009-01-04T21:26:00.000Z-Too_many_pictures" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:26, 4 January 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mwahcysl-2009-01-04T21:26:00.000Z-Too_many_pictures"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mwahcysl-2009-01-04T21:26:00.000Z-Too_many_pictures"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-209.132.142.172-2010-06-08T22:58:00.000Z-Mwahcysl-2009-01-04T21:26:00.000Z"></span>There should be more pictures --<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/209.132.142.172" title="Special:Contributions/209.132.142.172">209.132.142.172</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:209.132.142.172&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:209.132.142.172 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-209.132.142.172-2010-06-08T22:58:00.000Z-Mwahcysl-2009-01-04T21:26:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:58, 8 June 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-209.132.142.172-2010-06-08T22:58:00.000Z-Mwahcysl-2009-01-04T21:26:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-209.132.142.172-2010-06-08T22:58:00.000Z-Mwahcysl-2009-01-04T21:26:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="When_was_Kombo_St.Mary's_Division_created/split_off_from_the_Western_Division?" data-mw-thread-id="h-When_was_Kombo_St.Mary's_Division_created/split_off_from_the_Western_Division?-2006-09-29T15:05:00.000Z"><span id="When_was_Kombo_St.Mary.27s_Division_created.2Fsplit_off_from_the_Western_Division.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-When_was_Kombo_St.Mary's_Division_created/split_off_from_the_Western_Division?-2006-09-29T15:05:00.000Z"></span>When was Kombo St.Mary's Division created/split off from the Western Division?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-When_was_Kombo_St.Mary's_Division_created/split_off_from_the_Western_Division?-2006-09-29T15:05:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TransUtopian-2006-09-29T15:05:00.000Z-When_was_Kombo_St.Mary's_Division_created/split_off_from_the_Western_Division?"></span><figure class="mw-default-size" typeof="mw:File/Thumb"><a href="/wiki/File:Banjul_districts.png" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Banjul_districts.png/220px-Banjul_districts.png" decoding="async" width="220" height="179" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Banjul_districts.png/330px-Banjul_districts.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Banjul_districts.png/440px-Banjul_districts.png 2x" data-file-width="950" data-file-height="772"/></a><figcaption>yellow:Kombo red:Banjul all:Greater Banjul Area</figcaption></figure> <p>Re: <a href="/wiki/The_Gambia#Administrative_Divisions" title="The Gambia">The Gambia#Administrative Divisions</a> </p><p><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Kombo+St.Mary%27s+division%22">http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Kombo+St.Mary%27s+division%22</a> </p><p>I do notice a number of districts named Kombo on the picture at <a href="/wiki/Western_Division_(The_Gambia)" class="mw-redirect" title="Western Division (The Gambia)">Western Division (The Gambia)</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:TransUtopian" title="User:TransUtopian">TransUtopian</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-TransUtopian-2006-09-29T15:05:00.000Z-When_was_Kombo_St.Mary's_Division_created/split_off_from_the_Western_Division?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:05, 29 September 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TransUtopian-2006-09-29T15:05:00.000Z-When_was_Kombo_St.Mary's_Division_created/split_off_from_the_Western_Division?"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TransUtopian-2006-09-29T15:05:00.000Z-When_was_Kombo_St.Mary's_Division_created/split_off_from_the_Western_Division?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Atamari-2006-09-29T16:24:00.000Z-TransUtopian-2006-09-29T15:05:00.000Z"></span>Kombo St.Mary's Division is an another name for greater banjul area. --<a href="/wiki/User:Atamari" title="User:Atamari">Atamari</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Atamari-2006-09-29T16:24:00.000Z-TransUtopian-2006-09-29T15:05:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:24, 29 September 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Atamari-2006-09-29T16:24:00.000Z-TransUtopian-2006-09-29T15:05:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Atamari-2006-09-29T16:24:00.000Z-TransUtopian-2006-09-29T15:05:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TransUtopian-2006-09-29T17:45:00.000Z-Atamari-2006-09-29T16:24:00.000Z"></span>So is it an official administrative division or an informal designation for Greater Banjul? <a href="/wiki/User:TransUtopian" title="User:TransUtopian">TransUtopian</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-TransUtopian-2006-09-29T17:45:00.000Z-Atamari-2006-09-29T16:24:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:45, 29 September 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TransUtopian-2006-09-29T17:45:00.000Z-Atamari-2006-09-29T16:24:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TransUtopian-2006-09-29T17:45:00.000Z-Atamari-2006-09-29T16:24:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Atamari-2006-09-29T19:25:00.000Z-TransUtopian-2006-09-29T17:45:00.000Z"></span>some information can you get from this site: <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://www.statoids.com/ugm.html">http://www.statoids.com/ugm.html</a> and the german wikipedia --<a href="/wiki/User:Atamari" title="User:Atamari">Atamari</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Atamari-2006-09-29T19:25:00.000Z-TransUtopian-2006-09-29T17:45:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:25, 29 September 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Atamari-2006-09-29T19:25:00.000Z-TransUtopian-2006-09-29T17:45:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Atamari-2006-09-29T19:25:00.000Z-TransUtopian-2006-09-29T17:45:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TransUtopian-2006-09-29T20:27:00.000Z-Atamari-2006-09-29T19:25:00.000Z"></span>Thank you Atamari. I integrated it as best I could into the section. I can't read German, but I read the Statoids page and got a cite for the 5 admin divisions. <a href="/wiki/User:TransUtopian" title="User:TransUtopian">TransUtopian</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-TransUtopian-2006-09-29T20:27:00.000Z-Atamari-2006-09-29T19:25:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:27, 29 September 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TransUtopian-2006-09-29T20:27:00.000Z-Atamari-2006-09-29T19:25:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TransUtopian-2006-09-29T20:27:00.000Z-Atamari-2006-09-29T19:25:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Atamari-2006-09-29T23:30:00.000Z-When_was_Kombo_St.Mary's_Division_created/split_off_from_the_Western_Division?"></span>It exist two system:</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>a) the older system LGA (local goverment area) (8 incl Banjul)</dd> <dd>b) division (6 incl Banjul as Greater Banjul Area)</dd></dl> <p>see also <a href="https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorlage:Navigationsleiste_Divisionen_Gambias" class="extiw" title="de:Vorlage:Navigationsleiste Divisionen Gambias">de:Vorlage:Navigationsleiste Divisionen Gambias</a> --<a href="/wiki/User:Atamari" title="User:Atamari">Atamari</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Atamari-2006-09-29T23:30:00.000Z-When_was_Kombo_St.Mary's_Division_created/split_off_from_the_Western_Division?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:30, 29 September 2006 (UTC)</a> this informatio on this websit can be very helpful for anyone doing reasch lol peace<span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Atamari-2006-09-29T23:30:00.000Z-When_was_Kombo_St.Mary's_Division_created/split_off_from_the_Western_Division?"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Atamari-2006-09-29T23:30:00.000Z-When_was_Kombo_St.Mary's_Division_created/split_off_from_the_Western_Division?"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Subdivisions_-or-_Divisions" data-mw-thread-id="h-Subdivisions_-or-_Divisions-2006-07-27T05:48:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Subdivisions_-or-_Divisions-2006-07-27T05:48:00.000Z"></span>Subdivisions -or- Divisions<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Subdivisions_-or-_Divisions-2006-07-27T05:48:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SirYoda-2006-07-27T05:48:00.000Z-Subdivisions_-or-_Divisions"></span>This article is not consistent. Click on the "Districts" link and article titled <a href="/wiki/Subdivisions_of_The_Gambia" class="mw-redirect" title="Subdivisions of The Gambia">Subdivisions of The Gambia</a>. Subdivisions should be a smaller unit than divisions? There are not synonoms, right? What do the Gambian people use?--<a href="/wiki/User:SirYoda" title="User:SirYoda">SirYoda</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-SirYoda-2006-07-27T05:48:00.000Z-Subdivisions_-or-_Divisions" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SirYoda-2006-07-27T05:48:00.000Z-Subdivisions_-or-_Divisions"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SirYoda-2006-07-27T05:48:00.000Z-Subdivisions_-or-_Divisions"></span> </p><p><i><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Enlil_Ninlil-2006-07-27T06:04:00.000Z-Subdivisions_-or-_Divisions"></span>The divisions are subdivided into 37 districts</i>. So there are districts but how mant in each division? <a href="/wiki/User:Enlil_Ninlil" title="User:Enlil Ninlil">Enlil Ninlil</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Enlil_Ninlil-2006-07-27T06:04:00.000Z-Subdivisions_-or-_Divisions" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:04, 27 July 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Enlil_Ninlil-2006-07-27T06:04:00.000Z-Subdivisions_-or-_Divisions"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Enlil_Ninlil-2006-07-27T06:04:00.000Z-Subdivisions_-or-_Divisions"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SirYoda-2006-07-28T02:38:00.000Z-Enlil_Ninlil-2006-07-27T06:04:00.000Z"></span>There seems to be 5 divisions which are them divided into 37 districts. It just confusing that the <a href="/wiki/Subdivisions_of_The_Gambia" class="mw-redirect" title="Subdivisions of The Gambia">Subdivisions of The Gambia</a> article's name use the term "Subdivision" since you would that means "list of districts" (by definition Subdivision are smaller than division, right?) --<a href="/wiki/User:SirYoda" title="User:SirYoda">SirYoda</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-SirYoda-2006-07-28T02:38:00.000Z-Enlil_Ninlil-2006-07-27T06:04:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:38, 28 July 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SirYoda-2006-07-28T02:38:00.000Z-Enlil_Ninlil-2006-07-27T06:04:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SirYoda-2006-07-28T02:38:00.000Z-Enlil_Ninlil-2006-07-27T06:04:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Enlil_Ninlil-2006-07-28T05:28:00.000Z-SirYoda-2006-07-28T02:38:00.000Z"></span>I have a good idea, change it and tell me when ur done mate. <a href="/wiki/User:Enlil_Ninlil" title="User:Enlil Ninlil">Enlil Ninlil</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Enlil_Ninlil-2006-07-28T05:28:00.000Z-SirYoda-2006-07-28T02:38:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:28, 28 July 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Enlil_Ninlil-2006-07-28T05:28:00.000Z-SirYoda-2006-07-28T02:38:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Enlil_Ninlil-2006-07-28T05:28:00.000Z-SirYoda-2006-07-28T02:38:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jao-2006-07-28T07:39:00.000Z-Enlil_Ninlil-2006-07-27T06:04:00.000Z"></span>I'm not necessarily going into this discussion, as it's probably better run by more knowledgeable people, but I'm giving you a link to ponder: <a href="/wiki/Talk:Country_subdivision#A_subdivision_is_not_necessarily_a_sub-unit_to_a_division" title="Talk:Country subdivision">Talk:Country subdivision#A subdivision is not necessarily a sub-unit to a division</a> -- <a href="/wiki/User:Jao" title="User:Jao">Jao</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Jao-2006-07-28T07:39:00.000Z-Enlil_Ninlil-2006-07-27T06:04:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:39, 28 July 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jao-2006-07-28T07:39:00.000Z-Enlil_Ninlil-2006-07-27T06:04:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jao-2006-07-28T07:39:00.000Z-Enlil_Ninlil-2006-07-27T06:04:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SirYoda-2006-07-28T17:10:00.000Z-Jao-2006-07-28T07:39:00.000Z"></span>Thanks, after looking at this discussion and other countries it looks like we standardized on the generic term "Subdivisions" for States, Provinces, etc. for this type of article. I thought it was a typo of Division. It makes sense now so the articles across countries are consistent. --<a href="/wiki/User:SirYoda" title="User:SirYoda">SirYoda</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-SirYoda-2006-07-28T17:10:00.000Z-Jao-2006-07-28T07:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:10, 28 July 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SirYoda-2006-07-28T17:10:00.000Z-Jao-2006-07-28T07:39:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SirYoda-2006-07-28T17:10:00.000Z-Jao-2006-07-28T07:39:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rarelibra-2006-12-07T04:06:00.000Z-Subdivisions_-or-_Divisions"></span>I just noticed after all of this time how confusing this became - the redirects were all pointing at the Districts page. The Gambia is divided into <i>divisions</i> and subdivided into <i>districts</i>. Thus, it is proper to retain the <a href="/wiki/Divisions_of_The_Gambia" class="mw-redirect" title="Divisions of The Gambia">Divisions of The Gambia</a> page and also the <a href="/wiki/Districts_of_The_Gambia" class="mw-redirect" title="Districts of The Gambia">Districts of The Gambia</a> page. I have restored the divisions page to its proper form. <a href="/wiki/User:Rarelibra" title="User:Rarelibra">Rarelibra</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Rarelibra-2006-12-07T04:06:00.000Z-Subdivisions_-or-_Divisions" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rarelibra-2006-12-07T04:06:00.000Z-Subdivisions_-or-_Divisions"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rarelibra-2006-12-07T04:06:00.000Z-Subdivisions_-or-_Divisions"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Economy" data-mw-thread-id="h-Economy-2007-05-21T14:22:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Economy-2007-05-21T14:22:00.000Z"></span>Economy<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Economy-2007-05-21T14:22:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Hughcharlesparker-2007-05-21T14:22:00.000Z-Economy"></span>Quot.: "The UK and other EU countries constitute The Gambia's major domestic export markets, accounting for 86% in total; followed by Asia at 14%; and the African subregion, including Senegal, Guinea-Bissau, and Ghana at 8%." The result is 108% of the export markets. Can anybody verify the figures, please? <small>—The preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment was added by <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:83.73.234.74&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:83.73.234.74 (page does not exist)">83.73.234.74</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:83.73.234.74&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:83.73.234.74 (page does not exist)">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/83.73.234.74" title="Special:Contributions/83.73.234.74">contribs</a>) 19:43, 5 November 2006.</small> </p><p>The article says that the GNP pro capita is 2002 US dollars, but in every other source I find an estimate for 2001 of 302.7 US dollars. An incredible gap. Can anyone verify this figure? <small>—The preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment was added by <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:81.208.83.243&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:81.208.83.243 (page does not exist)">81.208.83.243</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:81.208.83.243" title="User talk:81.208.83.243">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.208.83.243" title="Special:Contributions/81.208.83.243">contribs</a>) 12:17, 21 May 2007.</small> </p> <dl><dd>If you have a source for a figure, and the figure in the article is unsourced, then <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BOLD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BOLD">be bold</a>, and go ahead and change it. --<a href="/wiki/User:Hughcharlesparker" title="User:Hughcharlesparker">Hugh<small>Charles</small>Parker</a> <small>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hughcharlesparker" title="User talk:Hughcharlesparker">talk</a> - <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Hughcharlesparker" title="Special:Contributions/Hughcharlesparker">contribs</a>)</small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Hughcharlesparker-2007-05-21T14:22:00.000Z-Economy" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:22, 21 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Hughcharlesparker-2007-05-21T14:22:00.000Z-Economy"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Hughcharlesparker-2007-05-21T14:22:00.000Z-Economy"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Unsubstantiated_Claim" data-mw-thread-id="h-Unsubstantiated_Claim-2007-01-27T00:07:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Unsubstantiated_Claim-2007-01-27T00:07:00.000Z"></span>Unsubstantiated Claim<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Unsubstantiated_Claim-2007-01-27T00:07:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-169.237.6.178-2007-01-27T00:07:00.000Z-Unsubstantiated_Claim"></span>Quote: "Reporters Without Borders has accused "President Yahya Jammeh’s police state" of using murder, arson, unlawful arrest and death threats against journalists, but it is simply speculation." -- "but it is only speculation" is an unsubstantiated judgment inappropriate for an encyclopedia article. Who is saying Gambia is not a police state and why? <small>—The preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Sign_your_posts_on_talk_pages" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages">unsigned</a> comment was added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/169.237.6.178" title="Special:Contributions/169.237.6.178">169.237.6.178</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:169.237.6.178&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:169.237.6.178 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-169.237.6.178-2007-01-27T00:07:00.000Z-Unsubstantiated_Claim" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:07, 27 January 2007 (UTC)</a>.</small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-169.237.6.178-2007-01-27T00:07:00.000Z-Unsubstantiated_Claim"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-169.237.6.178-2007-01-27T00:07:00.000Z-Unsubstantiated_Claim"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Area_size_discrepancy" data-mw-thread-id="h-Area_size_discrepancy-2007-08-08T08:27:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Area_size_discrepancy-2007-08-08T08:27:00.000Z"></span>Area size discrepancy<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Area_size_discrepancy-2007-08-08T08:27:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Meco-2007-08-08T08:27:00.000Z-Area_size_discrepancy"></span>Both the figure for the country's area and its rank is different in the infobox and in the list <a href="/wiki/List_of_countries_and_outlying_territories_by_total_area" class="mw-redirect" title="List of countries and outlying territories by total area">List of countries and outlying territories by total area</a>. __<a href="/wiki/User:Meco" title="User:Meco">meco</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Meco-2007-08-08T08:27:00.000Z-Area_size_discrepancy" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Meco-2007-08-08T08:27:00.000Z-Area_size_discrepancy"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Meco-2007-08-08T08:27:00.000Z-Area_size_discrepancy"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="National_Bird" data-mw-thread-id="h-National_Bird-2007-06-29T16:41:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-National_Bird-2007-06-29T16:41:00.000Z"></span>National Bird<span data-mw-comment-end="h-National_Bird-2007-06-29T16:41:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MeegsC-2007-06-29T16:41:00.000Z-National_Bird"></span>Does The Gambia have a national bird? I'm working on improving the country's bird list, and would like to be able to indicate which species is the national bird, if there is one! <a href="/wiki/User:MeegsC" title="User:MeegsC">MeegsC</a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:MeegsC" title="User talk:MeegsC">Talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-MeegsC-2007-06-29T16:41:00.000Z-National_Bird" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:41, 29 June 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MeegsC-2007-06-29T16:41:00.000Z-National_Bird"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MeegsC-2007-06-29T16:41:00.000Z-National_Bird"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Jawara:_President_or_PM?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Jawara:_President_or_PM?-2007-03-13T21:09:00.000Z"><span id="Jawara:_President_or_PM.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Jawara:_President_or_PM?-2007-03-13T21:09:00.000Z"></span>Jawara: President or PM?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Jawara:_President_or_PM?-2007-03-13T21:09:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mrrhum-2007-03-13T21:09:00.000Z-Jawara:_President_or_PM?"></span>The article refers to Jawara as both president and prime minister. Which was he? The passage that refers to him as PM also refers to him as head of state, which would make him president (a PM is head of government, not state), but it is still unclear to me. Was he PM before The Gambia became a republic. If so, when did he become president and how? By election, by appointment? <a href="/wiki/User:Mrrhum" title="User:Mrrhum">Mrrhum</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Mrrhum-2007-03-13T21:09:00.000Z-Jawara:_President_or_PM?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:09, 13 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mrrhum-2007-03-13T21:09:00.000Z-Jawara:_President_or_PM?"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mrrhum-2007-03-13T21:09:00.000Z-Jawara:_President_or_PM?"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-John_Kenney-2007-03-13T21:50:00.000Z-Jawara:_President_or_PM?"></span>Jawara was PM before Gambia became a republic, when it was a commonwealth realm. Then he became president when it became a republic in 1971. I don't know what the procedure was - most likely he was elected by parliament. <a href="/wiki/User:John_Kenney" class="mw-redirect" title="User:John Kenney">john k</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-John_Kenney-2007-03-13T21:50:00.000Z-Jawara:_President_or_PM?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-John_Kenney-2007-03-13T21:50:00.000Z-Jawara:_President_or_PM?"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-John_Kenney-2007-03-13T21:50:00.000Z-Jawara:_President_or_PM?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Atamari-2007-03-14T00:33:00.000Z-John_Kenney-2007-03-13T21:50:00.000Z"></span>See: <i>24 April 1970 Plebiscite ”Declaration of the Republic”</i> --<a href="/wiki/User:Atamari" title="User:Atamari">Atamari</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Atamari-2007-03-14T00:33:00.000Z-John_Kenney-2007-03-13T21:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Atamari-2007-03-14T00:33:00.000Z-John_Kenney-2007-03-13T21:50:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Atamari-2007-03-14T00:33:00.000Z-John_Kenney-2007-03-13T21:50:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><br/><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-NEMT-2007-07-16T06:14:00.000Z-Jawara:_President_or_PM?"></span> "the attitude of the locals towards Westerners is quite different to that of the natives living more inland." - This is not very informative. What is the attitude of the locals? What is the attitude of the inland natives? </p> <dl><dd>This would suggest everyone's love for the gambia is unrequited. --<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:NEMT&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:NEMT (page does not exist)">NEMT</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-NEMT-2007-07-16T06:14:00.000Z-Jawara:_President_or_PM?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:14, 16 July 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-NEMT-2007-07-16T06:14:00.000Z-Jawara:_President_or_PM?"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-NEMT-2007-07-16T06:14:00.000Z-Jawara:_President_or_PM?"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Press_freedom" data-mw-thread-id="h-Press_freedom-2007-10-30T18:08:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Press_freedom-2007-10-30T18:08:00.000Z"></span>Press freedom<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Press_freedom-2007-10-30T18:08:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jmabel-2007-10-30T18:08:00.000Z-Press_freedom"></span>I don't want to plunge into editing this article, because I am sure that many people working on it know far more than I about it, but I did want to draw people's attention to an interesting and well-written article discussing some of the recent press censorship in the Gambia (and sorting out, to some extent, how it has affected various specific newspapers). Someone may want to get hold of this and use it: </p> <ul><li>Dawn Starin, "Dancing Lessons from God", <i>Index on Censorship</i>, Volume 36, Number 3, 2007, p. 207–214.</li></ul> <p>- <a href="/wiki/User:Jmabel" title="User:Jmabel">Jmabel</a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jmabel" title="User talk:Jmabel">Talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Jmabel-2007-10-30T18:08:00.000Z-Press_freedom" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:08, 30 October 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jmabel-2007-10-30T18:08:00.000Z-Press_freedom"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jmabel-2007-10-30T18:08:00.000Z-Press_freedom"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="January_2008_Requested_move" data-mw-thread-id="h-January_2008_Requested_move-2008-01-17T00:00:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-January_2008_Requested_move-2008-01-17T00:00:00.000Z"></span>January 2008 Requested move<span data-mw-comment-end="h-January_2008_Requested_move-2008-01-17T00:00:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"> <dl><dd><i>The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. <span style="color:red"><b>Please do not modify it.</b></span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. </i></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Reasoning_for_the_proposed_move" data-mw-thread-id="h-Reasoning_for_the_proposed_move-January_2008_Requested_move-2008-01-17T00:00:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Reasoning_for_the_proposed_move-January_2008_Requested_move-2008-01-17T00:00:00.000Z"></span>Reasoning for the proposed move<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Reasoning_for_the_proposed_move-January_2008_Requested_move-2008-01-17T00:00:00.000Z"></span></h3></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Snocrates-2008-01-17T00:00:00.000Z-Reasoning_for_the_proposed_move"></span>Right off the bat, I'd like to state that: </p> <ol><li>Yes, I know that this case is listed as a specific example in the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions#Avoid_the_definite_article_.28.22the.22.29_and_the_indefinite_article_.28.22a.22.2F.22an.22.29_at_the_beginning_of_the_page_name" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Naming conventions">WP naming conventions</a>; I'm asking that the premise that this is based on be discussed, however, so I don't think it's useful to reference this as authority for the purposes of this discussion.</li> <li>I don't disagree that it is proper to refer to "the Gambia" when writing about the country. My only concern here is why the WP article name includes the article.</li></ol> <p>So why move? </p> <ol><li>I see this as being somewhat analogous to "the Netherlands", where the article is currently at <a href="/wiki/Netherlands" title="Netherlands">Netherlands</a>. You would never write "Netherlands" without the article, but that doesn't mean the article should be at <a href="/wiki/The_Netherlands" class="mw-redirect" title="The Netherlands">The Netherlands</a>.</li> <li>We should be using the most commonly-used name. A simple study of the google hits is revealing:</li></ol> <dl><dd><dl><dd><ul><li>there are approximately <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22gambia%22&btnG=Google+Search&meta=">92 million ghits</a> for "Gambia", which includes all uses, including those with the article</li> <li>there are approximately <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22the+gambia%22&btnG=Search">9 million ghits</a> for "the Gambia" or "The Gambia".</li> <li>this means there are approximately 83 million uses of "Gambia" without the article (92 million subtract 9 million = 83 million)</li> <li>therefore, in terms of ghits, uses of "Gambia" without the article outweigh uses of "the Gambia" 83 million to 9 million, or by a factor of about 9 times.</li></ul></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p>For these reasons, I think the article should be moved to <a href="/wiki/Gambia" class="mw-redirect" title="Gambia">Gambia</a>. — <a href="/wiki/User:Snocrates" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Snocrates">Snocrates</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Snocrates-2008-01-17T00:00:00.000Z-Reasoning_for_the_proposed_move" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:00, 17 January 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Snocrates-2008-01-17T00:00:00.000Z-Reasoning_for_the_proposed_move"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Snocrates-2008-01-17T00:00:00.000Z-Reasoning_for_the_proposed_move"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Voting_/_Discussion" data-mw-thread-id="h-Voting_/_Discussion-January_2008_Requested_move-2008-01-17T00:02:00.000Z"><span id="Voting_.2F_Discussion"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Voting_/_Discussion-January_2008_Requested_move-2008-01-17T00:02:00.000Z"></span>Voting / Discussion<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Voting_/_Discussion-January_2008_Requested_move-2008-01-17T00:02:00.000Z"></span></h3></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading4"><h4 id="In_favour" data-mw-thread-id="h-In_favour-Voting_/_Discussion-2008-01-17T01:10:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-In_favour-Voting_/_Discussion-2008-01-17T01:10:00.000Z"></span>In favour<span data-mw-comment-end="h-In_favour-Voting_/_Discussion-2008-01-17T01:10:00.000Z"></span></h4></div> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TJ_Spyke-2008-01-17T01:10:00.000Z-In_favour"></span>Support</b> I have never heard anybody call it "The Gambia" (to me, it would be like saying "The Japan" or "The Australia"), and a Google search seems to support"Gambia" being far more common. <b><span style="border: 2px Maroon solid;background:#4682B4;font-family: Monotype Corsiva"><a href="/wiki/User:TJ_Spyke" title="User:TJ Spyke"><span style="color:Maroon;">TJ</span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:TJ_Spyke" title="User talk:TJ Spyke"><span style="color:Maroon;">Spyke</span></a></span></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-TJ_Spyke-2008-01-17T01:10:00.000Z-In_favour" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:10, 17 January 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TJ_Spyke-2008-01-17T01:10:00.000Z-In_favour"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TJ_Spyke-2008-01-17T01:10:00.000Z-In_favour"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AjaxSmack-2008-01-19T04:24:00.000Z-In_favour"></span>Support</b> per nominator's Netherlands argument and the spirit of the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions#Avoid_the_definite_article_.28.22the.22.29_and_the_indefinite_article_.28.22a.22.2F.22an.22.29_at_the_beginning_of_the_page_name" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Naming conventions">naming conventions</a>. When someone starts saying things like "Yesterday, three The Gambian citizens were awarded gold medals" I might change my mind. — <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:AjaxSmack" title="User talk:AjaxSmack"><span style="color:#fef; background:navy;"><b> AjaxSmack </b></span></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-AjaxSmack-2008-01-19T04:24:00.000Z-In_favour" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:24, 19 January 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AjaxSmack-2008-01-19T04:24:00.000Z-In_favour"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AjaxSmack-2008-01-19T04:24:00.000Z-In_favour"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-19T13:22:00.000Z-In_favour"></span>In contrast to the number of times you read "three Netherlandian citizens were awarded gold medals"? National adjectives don't really tell us how the nation is named, IMHO. <a href="/wiki/User:WotherspoonSmith" title="User:WotherspoonSmith">WotherspoonSmith</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WotherspoonSmith" title="User talk:WotherspoonSmith">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-19T13:22:00.000Z-In_favour" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:22, 19 January 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-19T13:22:00.000Z-In_favour"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-19T13:22:00.000Z-In_favour"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AjaxSmack-2008-01-19T18:28:00.000Z-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-19T13:22:00.000Z"></span>True, adjective forms differ. I was trying to show that the article is dispensible but it was a bit of a red herring. Perhaps this part of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NCD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NCD">WP:NCD</a> might clarify things: <i>"If a word without a definite article would have a general meaning, while the same word has a specific and identifiable meaning, understood by all, if adding the article, and if there is justification to have separate articles for both meanings, the specific meaning can be explained on a separate page, with a page title including the article."</i> <a href="/wiki/Gambia" class="mw-redirect" title="Gambia">Gambia</a> and <a href="/wiki/The_Gambia" title="The Gambia">The Gambia</a> are the same thing and contemporary English usage eschews using articles with topnyms (e.g., <a href="/wiki/The_Ukraine" class="mw-redirect" title="The Ukraine">The Ukraine</a>, <a href="/wiki/The_Crimea" class="mw-disambig" title="The Crimea">The Crimea</a>). A counter example would be <a href="/wiki/Pentagon" title="Pentagon">pentagon</a> and <a href="/wiki/The_Pentagon" title="The Pentagon">The Pentagon</a> where addition of the article creates a different meaning. — <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:AjaxSmack" title="User talk:AjaxSmack"><span style="color:#fef; background:navy;"><b> AjaxSmack </b></span></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-AjaxSmack-2008-01-19T18:28:00.000Z-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-19T13:22:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:28, 19 January 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AjaxSmack-2008-01-19T18:28:00.000Z-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-19T13:22:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AjaxSmack-2008-01-19T18:28:00.000Z-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-19T13:22:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading4"><h4 id="Opposed" data-mw-thread-id="h-Opposed-Voting_/_Discussion-2008-01-17T00:02:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Opposed-Voting_/_Discussion-2008-01-17T00:02:00.000Z"></span>Opposed<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Opposed-Voting_/_Discussion-2008-01-17T00:02:00.000Z"></span></h4></div> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-17T00:02:00.000Z-Opposed"></span>Oppose</b> - pointless exercise in subjective hair-splitting. Nobody is confused or unable to find the article now. Let's spend out time doing something useful. - <a href="/wiki/User:DavidWBrooks" title="User:DavidWBrooks">DavidWBrooks</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:DavidWBrooks" title="User talk:DavidWBrooks">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-17T00:02:00.000Z-Opposed" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-17T00:02:00.000Z-Opposed"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-17T00:02:00.000Z-Opposed"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Snocrates-2008-01-17T00:03:00.000Z-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-17T00:02:00.000Z"></span>If you think the exercise is pointless, then you'd have no objective if the article <i>were</i> renamed, then, because still no confusion would result and people could still find the article? Some of us care about formatting on WP, and I'd like to hear from those who do, accompanied with some substantive reasoning. <a href="/wiki/User:Snocrates" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Snocrates">Snocrates</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Snocrates-2008-01-17T00:03:00.000Z-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-17T00:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:03, 17 January 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Snocrates-2008-01-17T00:03:00.000Z-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-17T00:02:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Snocrates-2008-01-17T00:03:00.000Z-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-17T00:02:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-17T00:07:00.000Z-Snocrates-2008-01-17T00:03:00.000Z"></span>That's an interesting method to encourage responses to your query. - <a href="/wiki/User:DavidWBrooks" title="User:DavidWBrooks">DavidWBrooks</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:DavidWBrooks" title="User talk:DavidWBrooks">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-17T00:07:00.000Z-Snocrates-2008-01-17T00:03:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-17T00:07:00.000Z-Snocrates-2008-01-17T00:03:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-17T00:07:00.000Z-Snocrates-2008-01-17T00:03:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Snocrates-2008-01-17T00:09:00.000Z-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-17T00:02:00.000Z"></span>Seriously, I want discussion on the merits. If someone thinks the whole issue is "pointless" or not a "useful" use of time, well, that's great, but probably not exactly what is helpful in gaining consensus on article name formatting. <a href="/wiki/User:Snocrates" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Snocrates">Snocrates</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Snocrates-2008-01-17T00:09:00.000Z-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-17T00:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:09, 17 January 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Snocrates-2008-01-17T00:09:00.000Z-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-17T00:02:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Snocrates-2008-01-17T00:09:00.000Z-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-17T00:02:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-17T00:24:00.000Z-Snocrates-2008-01-17T00:09:00.000Z"></span>Also seriously, calling something "pointless" <b>is</b> a discussion about the merits. The proposal has no point, in my opinion - ergo, don't do it. You asked for opinions from the community, as is proper, and this is one of them. No need to immediately go into refutation mode if you disagree. - <a href="/wiki/User:DavidWBrooks" title="User:DavidWBrooks">DavidWBrooks</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:DavidWBrooks" title="User talk:DavidWBrooks">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-17T00:24:00.000Z-Snocrates-2008-01-17T00:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:24, 17 January 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-17T00:24:00.000Z-Snocrates-2008-01-17T00:09:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-17T00:24:00.000Z-Snocrates-2008-01-17T00:09:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Snocrates-2008-01-17T00:46:00.000Z-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-17T00:02:00.000Z"></span>No, a substantive discussion on the merits involves providing reasons why either the name should appear as "The Gambia" or why the name should appear as "Gambia". To argue that the entire discussion is "pointless" or a waste of time tells us you oppose the change, but it doesn't tell us <i>why</i> "The Gambia" is preferable. I'm not in "refutation mode", whatever that is, I just want to see some quality reasoning on both sides. This proposal is part of a larger effort to gain some naming convention consensus that can spill over into other areas, such as standardizing the names of the relevant categories, so I really don't have that much invested in whether it fails or succeeds; it's the process and the supporting arguments I am interested in. If you have none, that's fine too. <a href="/wiki/User:Snocrates" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Snocrates">Snocrates</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Snocrates-2008-01-17T00:46:00.000Z-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-17T00:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:46, 17 January 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Snocrates-2008-01-17T00:46:00.000Z-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-17T00:02:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Snocrates-2008-01-17T00:46:00.000Z-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-17T00:02:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AxSkov-2008-01-17T13:30:00.000Z-Opposed"></span>Oppose</b>. The country's official short name is "<b>The</b> Gambia" and its official description is "Republic of <b>T</b>he Gambia" — note the capital 'T'. Most major atlases and encyclopaedias also call this country "The Gambia", such as <i>Doubleday's Atlas of the World</i>, <i>Britannica</i><sup><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.britannica.com/nations/Gambia,-The">[2]</a></sup>, <i>Encarta</i><sup><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761571438/Gambia_The.html">[3]</a></sup>, etc. Besides calling it "Gambia" just wouldn't have the same ring to it. – <a href="/wiki/User:AxSkov" title="User:AxSkov">Axman</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:AxSkov" title="User talk:AxSkov">☏</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-AxSkov-2008-01-17T13:30:00.000Z-Opposed" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AxSkov-2008-01-17T13:30:00.000Z-Opposed"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AxSkov-2008-01-17T13:30:00.000Z-Opposed"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AjaxSmack-2008-01-19T04:24:00.000Z-AxSkov-2008-01-17T13:30:00.000Z"></span>Wikipedia is not required to adhere to countries' official names (e.g., <a href="/wiki/Burma" class="mw-redirect" title="Burma">Burma</a>, <a href="/wiki/South_Korea" title="South Korea">South Korea</a>, <a href="/wiki/East_Timor" title="East Timor">East Timor</a>) and, while it's nice for article titles to ring, it's not a necessity. — <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:AjaxSmack" title="User talk:AjaxSmack"><span style="color:#fef; background:navy;"><b> AjaxSmack </b></span></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-AjaxSmack-2008-01-19T04:24:00.000Z-AxSkov-2008-01-17T13:30:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:24, 19 January 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AjaxSmack-2008-01-19T04:24:00.000Z-AxSkov-2008-01-17T13:30:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AjaxSmack-2008-01-19T04:24:00.000Z-AxSkov-2008-01-17T13:30:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Snocrates-2008-01-19T06:30:00.000Z-AjaxSmack-2008-01-19T04:24:00.000Z"></span>Furthermore, there are print sources that use "The Gambia", but just as many can be found that use "Gambia". We're not going to find the answer looking in an atlas. The google hits test gives a far more global measure of usage than cherry-picking a few atlases or other sources. <a href="/wiki/User:Snocrates" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Snocrates">Snocrates</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Snocrates-2008-01-19T06:30:00.000Z-AjaxSmack-2008-01-19T04:24:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:30, 19 January 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Snocrates-2008-01-19T06:30:00.000Z-AjaxSmack-2008-01-19T04:24:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Snocrates-2008-01-19T06:30:00.000Z-AjaxSmack-2008-01-19T04:24:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-19T13:09:00.000Z-Opposed"></span>Oppose</b> as per Axman's reasoning (other than the '"nice ring" bit!) and DavidWBrooks observations. A count of Google hits <b>not</b> a way to decide things. It is a way of imposing a US/ Western bias, if anything (think <a href="/w/index.php?title=Aliminum&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Aliminum (page does not exist)">aliminum</a>/ <a href="/wiki/Aluminium" title="Aluminium">aluminium</a>), and is exaggerated by the use of the word in other uses than the national name (Gambia taxis, the river Gambia, Gambian recipes etc). Using the proposers logic, we should also rename "<a href="/wiki/Mediterranean_Sea" title="Mediterranean Sea">Mediterranean Sea</a>" (4million ghits) with "Mediterranean" (47 million ghits). We might not be required to adhere to countries' official names, but it is correct and respectful to do so. I don't consider it "cherry picking" to know the official title, but go instead for the most popular (mis)use of a term, or one which complies with a Wikipedian general <s>rule</s>principle.<a href="/wiki/User:WotherspoonSmith" title="User:WotherspoonSmith">WotherspoonSmith</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WotherspoonSmith" title="User talk:WotherspoonSmith">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-19T13:09:00.000Z-Opposed" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:09, 19 January 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-19T13:09:00.000Z-Opposed"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-19T13:09:00.000Z-Opposed"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Snocrates-2008-01-20T01:11:00.000Z-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-19T13:09:00.000Z"></span>Lol -- I am neither American nor do I consider myself "Western" and I'm definitely not trying to "impose" anything, as I have stated above. You may not consider it cherry picking to pull out a few examples that comply with a certain opinion, but that's generally what it's called. I also question whether "The Gambia" <i>is</i> the "official name" in all contexts. For example, the <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.un.org/members/list.shtml">official UN list of member states</a> simply uses "Gambia". (Yes, I know, it's a cherry pick, but I'm showing it as one example to counter the impression being given that "The Gambia" is somehow "official".) This is the same list that uses such "official" names as "United Republic of Tanzania"; "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"; "Russian Federation"; "Lao People's Democratic Republic"; and others. Doesn't seem like the Gamibia is too concerned about getting the article in the name at the UN, at least, so I don't think this is an issue of "respect". Finally, I would point out that there is no consensus on whether to use <a href="/wiki/Mediterranean" class="mw-redirect" title="Mediterranean">Mediterranean</a> or <a href="/wiki/Mediterranean_Sea" title="Mediterranean Sea">Mediterranean Sea</a>. The article uses the "sea" designation, but many of the associated categories that refer to the sea omit the word "sea". <a href="/wiki/User:Snocrates" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Snocrates">Snocrates</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Snocrates-2008-01-20T01:11:00.000Z-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-19T13:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:11, 20 January 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Snocrates-2008-01-20T01:11:00.000Z-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-19T13:09:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Snocrates-2008-01-20T01:11:00.000Z-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-19T13:09:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-20T02:17:00.000Z-Snocrates-2008-01-20T01:11:00.000Z"></span>Apologies if my comments appeared to be accusing you, personally, of trying to impose a US or Western bias. I was referring to the dubious practice of counting google hits as a way of 1. "giving a far more global measure of usage" or, more importantly, saying which is the correct term for an encyclopaedia to use.<a href="/wiki/User:WotherspoonSmith" title="User:WotherspoonSmith">WotherspoonSmith</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WotherspoonSmith" title="User talk:WotherspoonSmith">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-20T02:17:00.000Z-Snocrates-2008-01-20T01:11:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-20T02:17:00.000Z-Snocrates-2008-01-20T01:11:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-20T02:17:00.000Z-Snocrates-2008-01-20T01:11:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Snocrates-2008-01-20T03:44:00.000Z-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-20T02:17:00.000Z"></span>Understood, and thank you. I apologise for misinterpreting what you said. <a href="/wiki/User:Snocrates" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Snocrates">Snocrates</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Snocrates-2008-01-20T03:44:00.000Z-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-20T02:17:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Snocrates-2008-01-20T03:44:00.000Z-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-20T02:17:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Snocrates-2008-01-20T03:44:00.000Z-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-20T02:17:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EJF-2008-01-19T16:47:00.000Z-Opposed"></span>Oppose</b> - As far as I know, 'The Gambia' is the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:COMMONNAME" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:COMMONNAME">common name</a>. It is always known as The Gambia, on for example the BBC. <a href="/wiki/User:EJF" title="User:EJF">EJF</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:EJF" title="User talk:EJF">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-EJF-2008-01-19T16:47:00.000Z-Opposed" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:47, 19 January 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EJF-2008-01-19T16:47:00.000Z-Opposed"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EJF-2008-01-19T16:47:00.000Z-Opposed"></span></li></ul> <p><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-20T13:06:00.000Z-Opposed"></span>More comment</b> - I voted <i>oppose</i> above, so this isn't another vote. With all this interesting debate (you're right, Snocrates - discussing it is more interesting than dismissing it) local usage should hold sway. Alas, it appears unlikely we'll hear opinions from people living in The Gambia; I spent two days as a tourist there 20 years ago and don't really remember which was used by people on the street. A check of the AllAfrica news service, based in the continent, find both usages, sometimes even in a single story (<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://allafrica.com/stories/200712310857.html">[4]</a>). Since there is no single rule about naming all countries' articles due to the complexity of issues (<a href="/wiki/Ivory_Coast" title="Ivory Coast">Ivory Coast</a> - in French or in English?), and there appears to be no compelling argument either way in this case, I still think we should not switch the article but leave it with the official name. - <a href="/wiki/User:DavidWBrooks" title="User:DavidWBrooks">DavidWBrooks</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:DavidWBrooks" title="User talk:DavidWBrooks">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-20T13:06:00.000Z-Opposed" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:06, 20 January 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-20T13:06:00.000Z-Opposed"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-20T13:06:00.000Z-Opposed"></span> </p> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zuiver_jo-2008-01-23T22:12:00.000Z-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-20T13:06:00.000Z"></span>Oppose</b> per Axman and discussion at top of page. There seems to be enough "encyclopaedic" coverage calling it The Gambia like Britannica and CIA Factbook. <a href="/wiki/User:Zuiver_jo" title="User:Zuiver jo">Zuiver jo</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Zuiver_jo" title="User talk:Zuiver jo">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Zuiver_jo-2008-01-23T22:12:00.000Z-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-20T13:06:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zuiver_jo-2008-01-23T22:12:00.000Z-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-20T13:06:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zuiver_jo-2008-01-23T22:12:00.000Z-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-20T13:06:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <p><br/> </p> <dl><dd><i>The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. <span style="color:red"><b>Please do not modify it.</b></span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</i></dd></dl></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Republic_of_The_Gambia" data-mw-thread-id="h-Republic_of_The_Gambia-2008-10-25T23:32:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Republic_of_The_Gambia-2008-10-25T23:32:00.000Z"></span>Republic of The Gambia<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Republic_of_The_Gambia-2008-10-25T23:32:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Fixman-2008-10-25T23:32:00.000Z-Republic_of_The_Gambia"></span>Gambia</b> and <b>The Gambia</b> are both "short versions" of <b>Republic of The Gambia</b>. I think that <b>Gambia</b>, in this case, is the most correct name of these two, since we don't have an article about <a href="/wiki/The_Netherlands" class="mw-redirect" title="The Netherlands">The Netherlands</a> when referring to the <b>Kingdom of the Netherlands</b>. </p><p>However, <b>The Gambia</b> can be seen as the "more correct version" of <b>Gambia</b>, by having a longer and so more accurate part of the name. So I propose changing the name of the article from <b>The Gambia</b> to <b>Republic of The Gambia</b>, as a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:3" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:3">third opinion</a> to the naming dispute, that is both "correct" and "good to read". --<a href="/wiki/User:Fixman" title="User:Fixman"><b style="color:darkgreen;">Fixman</b></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fixman" title="User talk:Fixman"><sup style="color:red;">Praise me</sup></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Fixman-2008-10-25T23:32:00.000Z-Republic_of_The_Gambia" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:32, 25 October 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Fixman-2008-10-25T23:32:00.000Z-Republic_of_The_Gambia"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Fixman-2008-10-25T23:32:00.000Z-Republic_of_The_Gambia"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Fixman-2008-10-25T23:32:00.000Z-Republic_of_The_Gambia-1"></span>Please read <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:3" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:3">the third opinion policy</a> before commenting. --<a href="/wiki/User:Fixman" title="User:Fixman"><b style="color:darkgreen;">Fixman</b></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fixman" title="User talk:Fixman"><sup style="color:red;">Praise me</sup></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Fixman-2008-10-25T23:32:00.000Z-Republic_of_The_Gambia-1" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:32, 25 October 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Fixman-2008-10-25T23:32:00.000Z-Republic_of_The_Gambia-1"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Fixman-2008-10-25T23:32:00.000Z-Republic_of_The_Gambia-1"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Poll_on_name_formatting" data-mw-thread-id="h-Poll_on_name_formatting-2008-01-25T00:57:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Poll_on_name_formatting-2008-01-25T00:57:00.000Z"></span>Poll on name formatting<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Poll_on_name_formatting-2008-01-25T00:57:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Snocrates-2008-01-25T00:57:00.000Z-Poll_on_name_formatting"></span>As a question related to the requested move discussion directly above, I present the following issue for discussion and would like to do so in "poll" fashion. </p> <ul><li>When using the name of the country somewhere other than the beginning of a sentence, should we use capital-T "<b>The Gambia</b>" or small-t "<b>the Gambia</b>" ? <ul><li>E.g. : Is it "Bob Smith took a trip to The Gambia." or "Bob Smith took a trip to the Gambia." ?</li></ul></li> <li>This could also related to categories. E.g., should it be <a href="/w/index.php?title=Category:Foo_in_The_Gambia&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Category:Foo in The Gambia (page does not exist)">Category:Foo in The Gambia</a> or <a href="/w/index.php?title=Category:Foo_in_the_Gambia&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Category:Foo in the Gambia (page does not exist)">Category:Foo in the Gambia</a> ?</li></ul> <p>Thanks for participating. <a href="/wiki/User:Snocrates" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Snocrates">Snocrates</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Snocrates-2008-01-25T00:57:00.000Z-Poll_on_name_formatting" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:57, 25 January 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Snocrates-2008-01-25T00:57:00.000Z-Poll_on_name_formatting"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Snocrates-2008-01-25T00:57:00.000Z-Poll_on_name_formatting"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id=""The_Gambia"" data-mw-thread-id="h-"The_Gambia"-Poll_on_name_formatting-2008-01-26T13:00:00.000Z"><span id=".22The_Gambia.22"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-"The_Gambia"-Poll_on_name_formatting-2008-01-26T13:00:00.000Z"></span>"The Gambia"<span data-mw-comment-end="h-"The_Gambia"-Poll_on_name_formatting-2008-01-26T13:00:00.000Z"></span></h3></div> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AxSkov-2008-01-26T13:00:00.000Z-"The_Gambia""></span>– <a href="/wiki/User:AxSkov" title="User:AxSkov">Axman</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:AxSkov" title="User talk:AxSkov">☏</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-AxSkov-2008-01-26T13:00:00.000Z-"The_Gambia"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:00, 26 January 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AxSkov-2008-01-26T13:00:00.000Z-"The_Gambia""></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AxSkov-2008-01-26T13:00:00.000Z-"The_Gambia""></span></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-26T14:02:00.000Z-"The_Gambia""></span>- <a href="/wiki/User:DavidWBrooks" title="User:DavidWBrooks">DavidWBrooks</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:DavidWBrooks" title="User talk:DavidWBrooks">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-26T14:02:00.000Z-"The_Gambia"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:02, 26 January 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-26T14:02:00.000Z-"The_Gambia""></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DavidWBrooks-2008-01-26T14:02:00.000Z-"The_Gambia""></span></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-26T15:44:00.000Z-"The_Gambia""></span>- <a href="/wiki/User:WotherspoonSmith" title="User:WotherspoonSmith">WotherspoonSmith</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WotherspoonSmith" title="User talk:WotherspoonSmith">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-26T15:44:00.000Z-"The_Gambia"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:44, 26 January 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-26T15:44:00.000Z-"The_Gambia""></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-WotherspoonSmith-2008-01-26T15:44:00.000Z-"The_Gambia""></span></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Enlil_Ninlil" title="User:Enlil Ninlil"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Enlil_Ninlil-2008-02-08T07:41:00.000Z-"The_Gambia""></span>Enlil Ninlil</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Enlil_Ninlil" title="User talk:Enlil Ninlil">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Enlil_Ninlil-2008-02-08T07:41:00.000Z-"The_Gambia"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)</a> it is a proper noun, not a common noun.<span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Enlil_Ninlil-2008-02-08T07:41:00.000Z-"The_Gambia""></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Enlil_Ninlil-2008-02-08T07:41:00.000Z-"The_Gambia""></span></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Managerpants-2008-02-18T13:05:00.000Z-"The_Gambia""></span>- <a href="/wiki/User:Managerpants" title="User:Managerpants">Managerpants</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Managerpants" title="User talk:Managerpants">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Managerpants-2008-02-18T13:05:00.000Z-"The_Gambia"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Managerpants-2008-02-18T13:05:00.000Z-"The_Gambia""></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Managerpants-2008-02-18T13:05:00.000Z-"The_Gambia""></span></li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id=""the_Gambia"_2" data-mw-thread-id="h-"the_Gambia"_2-Poll_on_name_formatting-2008-01-31T15:08:00.000Z"><span id=".22the_Gambia.22_2"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-"the_Gambia"_2-Poll_on_name_formatting-2008-01-31T15:08:00.000Z"></span>"the Gambia"<span data-mw-comment-end="h-"the_Gambia"_2-Poll_on_name_formatting-2008-01-31T15:08:00.000Z"></span></h3></div> <p><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/87.114.14.235" title="Special:Contributions/87.114.14.235"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-87.114.14.235-2008-01-31T15:08:00.000Z-"the_Gambia"_2"></span>87.114.14.235</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:87.114.14.235&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:87.114.14.235 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-87.114.14.235-2008-01-31T15:08:00.000Z-"the_Gambia"_2" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:08, 31 January 2008 (UTC)</a> (British newspaper title convention is "The Times/Guardian" and yet it is good editorial style often to say "this article appeared in the Times")<span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-87.114.14.235-2008-01-31T15:08:00.000Z-"the_Gambia"_2"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-87.114.14.235-2008-01-31T15:08:00.000Z-"the_Gambia"_2"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Just_"Gambia"" data-mw-thread-id="h-Just_"Gambia"-Poll_on_name_formatting-2009-05-11T00:17:00.000Z"><span id="Just_.22Gambia.22"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Just_"Gambia"-Poll_on_name_formatting-2009-05-11T00:17:00.000Z"></span>Just "Gambia"<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Just_"Gambia"-Poll_on_name_formatting-2009-05-11T00:17:00.000Z"></span></h3></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Varlaam-2009-05-11T00:17:00.000Z-Just_"Gambia""></span>Gambian stamps always said "Gambia" on them. Then the announcement was made, as noted further up this page, that there was some alleged confusion between Gambia and Zambia, and somehow the pompous addition of the "The" would change this. Clearly, "Gambia, West Africa" would have solved the problem. I call it "Gambia" as I have since the 1960s when as tiny children collecting stamps, nobody at school ever got confused over this theoretical naming crisis. </p><p><a href="/wiki/User:Varlaam" title="User:Varlaam">Varlaam</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Varlaam" title="User talk:Varlaam">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Varlaam-2009-05-11T00:17:00.000Z-Just_"Gambia"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:17, 11 May 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Varlaam-2009-05-11T00:17:00.000Z-Just_"Gambia""></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Varlaam-2009-05-11T00:17:00.000Z-Just_"Gambia""></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Varlaam-2009-05-11T00:40:00.000Z-Just_"Gambia""></span>"The Gambia" is in the same category as "Kampuchea" or "Myanmar". A country's government decides to rename itself for obscure domestic political reasons, and no one outside the country is obligated to respect that, since the country's name will revert soon enough. To Cambodia, Burma, or Gambia, as the case may be. </p><p><a href="/wiki/User:Varlaam" title="User:Varlaam">Varlaam</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Varlaam" title="User talk:Varlaam">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Varlaam-2009-05-11T00:40:00.000Z-Just_"Gambia"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:40, 11 May 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Varlaam-2009-05-11T00:40:00.000Z-Just_"Gambia""></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Varlaam-2009-05-11T00:40:00.000Z-Just_"Gambia""></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Varlaam-2009-05-11T19:53:00.000Z-Just_"Gambia""></span>Remember when that crook Bokassa renamed his country from the Central African Republic to the Central African Empire, making it more of a laughingstock than it already was? No money for literacy programmes, lots of money for elaborate coronation ceremonies. And how long did that name change last? </p><p>This Gambian relabelling was not a real change, like Northern Rhodesia->Zambia, Rhodesia->Zimbabwe or Ceylon->Sri Lanka, where the name change is part and parcel of an actual legitimate political transformation. There's no transformation here in this case. </p><p>It's bogus, much like the Ivory Coast demanding that it only be referred to by the French version of its name, and never any other version. </p><p><a href="/wiki/User:Varlaam" title="User:Varlaam">Varlaam</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Varlaam" title="User talk:Varlaam">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Varlaam-2009-05-11T19:53:00.000Z-Just_"Gambia"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:53, 11 May 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Varlaam-2009-05-11T19:53:00.000Z-Just_"Gambia""></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Varlaam-2009-05-11T19:53:00.000Z-Just_"Gambia""></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Varlaam-2009-05-11T20:11:00.000Z-Just_"Gambia""></span>The one good thing you can say about that crook Mobutu is he finally solved the two Congos problem. In colonial days, it was easy, French Congo, Belgian Congo. Simple. Then at independence they both claimed the word "Congo", so they had to be distinguished by their capital cities, Léopoldville and Stanleyville. That was cumbersome, but stable. But then they needed to nationalize the names of their capital cities. Mobutu fixed that crap in one stroke with his brilliant "Zaire", short, memorable. It even looks cool. And Zaire allowed the French Congo to be plain Congo. And now we're back to two Congos again. </p><p>African countries are not solving any of their genuine problems with this naming nonsense. </p><p><a href="/wiki/User:Varlaam" title="User:Varlaam">Varlaam</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Varlaam" title="User talk:Varlaam">talk</a>) 20:11, 11 May 2009 (UTC) Brazzaville, not Stanleyville. And Brazzaville has always been called that. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/67.76.67.70" title="Special:Contributions/67.76.67.70">67.76.67.70</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:67.76.67.70" title="User talk:67.76.67.70">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Varlaam-2009-05-11T20:11:00.000Z-Just_"Gambia"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:32, 4 October 2014 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Varlaam-2009-05-11T20:11:00.000Z-Just_"Gambia""></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Varlaam-2009-05-11T20:11:00.000Z-Just_"Gambia""></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Related_discussion" data-mw-thread-id="h-Related_discussion-Poll_on_name_formatting"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Related_discussion-Poll_on_name_formatting"></span>Related discussion<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Related_discussion-Poll_on_name_formatting"></span></h3></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Enclave" data-mw-thread-id="h-Enclave-2008-10-15T16:17:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Enclave-2008-10-15T16:17:00.000Z"></span>Enclave<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Enclave-2008-10-15T16:17:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-64.132.221.211-2008-10-15T16:17:00.000Z-Enclave"></span>In the enclave article, it says: "A country almost surrounded by another but having access to the sea is not considered to be an enclave. For this reason, The Gambia is not an enclave of Senegal." The way the link is setup, it implies The Gambia is an enclave. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/64.132.221.211" title="Special:Contributions/64.132.221.211">64.132.221.211</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:64.132.221.211" title="User talk:64.132.221.211">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-64.132.221.211-2008-10-15T16:17:00.000Z-Enclave" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:17, 15 October 2008 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-64.132.221.211-2008-10-15T16:17:00.000Z-Enclave"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-64.132.221.211-2008-10-15T16:17:00.000Z-Enclave"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Coroboy-2015-04-11T14:16:00.000Z-64.132.221.211-2008-10-15T16:17:00.000Z"></span>Agreed. I removed the word "enclaved". The situation is explained anyway. —<a href="/wiki/User:Coroboy" title="User:Coroboy">Coroboy</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Coroboy" title="User talk:Coroboy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Coroboy-2015-04-11T14:16:00.000Z-64.132.221.211-2008-10-15T16:17:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:16, 11 April 2015 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Coroboy-2015-04-11T14:16:00.000Z-64.132.221.211-2008-10-15T16:17:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Coroboy-2015-04-11T14:16:00.000Z-64.132.221.211-2008-10-15T16:17:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="A_gambia" data-mw-thread-id="h-A_gambia"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-A_gambia"></span>A gambia<span data-mw-comment-end="h-A_gambia"></span></h2></div> <p>according to <a href="/wiki/Flag_of_Oman" title="Flag of Oman">Flag of Oman</a> is a traditional curved dagger. <i><a href="/wiki/User:Rich_Farmbrough" title="User:Rich Farmbrough">Rich</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rich_Farmbrough" title="User talk:Rich Farmbrough">Farmbrough</a></i>, 22:31 <a href="/wiki/24_August" class="mw-redirect" title="24 August">24 August</a> <a href="/wiki/2008" title="2008">2008</a> (GMT). </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id=""Smallest_country_in_Africa"" data-mw-thread-id="h-"Smallest_country_in_Africa"-2009-03-13T12:57:00.000Z"><span id=".22Smallest_country_in_Africa.22"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-"Smallest_country_in_Africa"-2009-03-13T12:57:00.000Z"></span>"Smallest country in Africa"<span data-mw-comment-end="h-"Smallest_country_in_Africa"-2009-03-13T12:57:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Iridescent-2009-03-13T12:57:00.000Z-"Smallest_country_in_Africa""></span>The lead currently says "The Gambia is the smallest country in Africa". Ought this to be reworded to "African mainland" or similar? <a href="/wiki/S%C3%A3o_Tom%C3%A9_and_Pr%C3%ADncipe" title="São Tomé and Príncipe">São Tomé and Príncipe</a> and <a href="/wiki/The_Seychelles" class="mw-redirect" title="The Seychelles">The Seychelles</a> are both smaller by both population and area, and are officially considered as part of Africa. (Apologies if this has already been discussed somewhere – I can't see it anywhere.) – <a href="/wiki/User:Iridescent" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Iridescent"><span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting, Segoe Script; color:#E45E05;">iride<span style="color:#C1118C;">scent</span></span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Iridescent-2009-03-13T12:57:00.000Z-"Smallest_country_in_Africa"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:57, 13 March 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Iridescent-2009-03-13T12:57:00.000Z-"Smallest_country_in_Africa""></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Iridescent-2009-03-13T12:57:00.000Z-"Smallest_country_in_Africa""></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Miranda-2009-03-13T17:48:00.000Z-Iridescent-2009-03-13T12:57:00.000Z"></span>Probably smallest country in mainland Africa. I would need to research that. Thanks. <b><a href="/wiki/User:Miranda" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Miranda"><font face="verdana"><font color="#007BA7">miranda</font></font></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Miranda-2009-03-13T17:48:00.000Z-Iridescent-2009-03-13T12:57:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:48, 13 March 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Miranda-2009-03-13T17:48:00.000Z-Iridescent-2009-03-13T12:57:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Miranda-2009-03-13T17:48:00.000Z-Iridescent-2009-03-13T12:57:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Very_Incomplete" data-mw-thread-id="h-Very_Incomplete-2009-03-21T21:09:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Very_Incomplete-2009-03-21T21:09:00.000Z"></span>Very Incomplete<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Very_Incomplete-2009-03-21T21:09:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Human.v2.0-2009-03-21T21:09:00.000Z-Very_Incomplete"></span>This Wiki seems to be representing an "official presentation" rather than the reality of recent years. Not a single mention of <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/03/18/international/i075556D87.DTL">this</a>, for instance. No mention of <a href="/wiki/Yahya_Jammeh" title="Yahya Jammeh">Yahya Jammeh</a> repeatedly claiming that he can cure <a href="/wiki/AIDS" class="mw-redirect" title="AIDS">AIDS</a> (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/the-president-who-claims-he-can-cure-aids-on-mondays-434797.html">specifically, on mondays</a>). I'm going to drum up sources so that this Wiki can stop ignoring the elephant in the corner of the room. --<a href="/wiki/User:Human.v2.0" title="User:Human.v2.0">Human.v2.0</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Human.v2.0" title="User talk:Human.v2.0">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Human.v2.0-2009-03-21T21:09:00.000Z-Very_Incomplete" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:09, 21 March 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Human.v2.0-2009-03-21T21:09:00.000Z-Very_Incomplete"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Human.v2.0-2009-03-21T21:09:00.000Z-Very_Incomplete"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dubhe.sk-2009-03-21T22:39:00.000Z-Human.v2.0-2009-03-21T21:09:00.000Z"></span>as i see you have your own user account so you can contribute too ;-) ..anyway, i don't think these news are important in that way that it has to be mentioned in article about the country. it can be suitable for artile about <a href="/wiki/Yahya_Jammeh" title="Yahya Jammeh">Yahya Jammeh</a>, <a href="/wiki/Yahya_Jammeh" title="Yahya Jammeh">Yahya Jammeh</a> and maybe about <a href="/wiki/Politics_of_The_Gambia" class="mw-redirect" title="Politics of The Gambia">Politics of The Gambia</a>. ..<a href="/wiki/User:Dubhe.sk" title="User:Dubhe.sk">Dubhe.sk</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dubhe.sk" title="User talk:Dubhe.sk">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Dubhe.sk-2009-03-21T22:39:00.000Z-Human.v2.0-2009-03-21T21:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:39, 21 March 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dubhe.sk-2009-03-21T22:39:00.000Z-Human.v2.0-2009-03-21T21:09:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dubhe.sk-2009-03-21T22:39:00.000Z-Human.v2.0-2009-03-21T21:09:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Human.v2.0-2009-03-22T00:20:00.000Z-Dubhe.sk-2009-03-21T22:39:00.000Z"></span>While the specifics are indeed better suited to be elaborated in the more specific Wikis, it can't be easily argued that certain mentions shouldn't be included here. I'm certainly capable and going to add fitting text, but as some of these might end up being considered debatable by other editors I wanted to make mention of it here so that folks will know to bring it up for discussion other than toss reverts at my edits. If these issues were a little more contained to specific politicians or activists then I would see lesser need for inclusion, but some of these matters are central to the nation as a whole. So have a good evening, and feel free to comment on changes that I make. --<a href="/wiki/User:Human.v2.0" title="User:Human.v2.0">Human.v2.0</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Human.v2.0" title="User talk:Human.v2.0">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Human.v2.0-2009-03-22T00:20:00.000Z-Dubhe.sk-2009-03-21T22:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:20, 22 March 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Human.v2.0-2009-03-22T00:20:00.000Z-Dubhe.sk-2009-03-21T22:39:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Human.v2.0-2009-03-22T00:20:00.000Z-Dubhe.sk-2009-03-21T22:39:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="About_Unlinking" data-mw-thread-id="h-About_Unlinking-2009-04-09T16:47:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-About_Unlinking-2009-04-09T16:47:00.000Z"></span>About Unlinking<span data-mw-comment-end="h-About_Unlinking-2009-04-09T16:47:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dsnow75-2009-04-09T16:47:00.000Z-About_Unlinking"></span>To whom it may concern: </p> <dl><dd>According to general Wikipedia policy Gambian Independence Day should be unlinked. However, it seems to me that the date has relevance as a matter of state, at least to Gambians. I have left it linked. Any comments will be welcome. <a href="/wiki/User:Dsnow75" title="User:Dsnow75">Dsnow75 [[User Talk: Dsnow75|Talk]]</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dsnow75" title="User talk:Dsnow75">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Dsnow75-2009-04-09T16:47:00.000Z-About_Unlinking" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:47, 9 April 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dsnow75-2009-04-09T16:47:00.000Z-About_Unlinking"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dsnow75-2009-04-09T16:47:00.000Z-About_Unlinking"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Rename_to_Gambia" data-mw-thread-id="h-Rename_to_Gambia-2008-11-09T22:42:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Rename_to_Gambia-2008-11-09T22:42:00.000Z"></span>Rename to Gambia<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Rename_to_Gambia-2008-11-09T22:42:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Parthian_Scribe-2008-11-09T22:42:00.000Z-Rename_to_Gambia"></span>This article should be moved to <a href="/wiki/Gambia" class="mw-redirect" title="Gambia">Gambia</a> per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:THE#Other_cases" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:THE">Wikipedia:THE#Other_cases</a>. Does anyone (dis)agree? <a href="/wiki/User:Parthian_Scribe" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Parthian Scribe">Parthian Scribe</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Parthian_Scribe-2008-11-09T22:42:00.000Z-Rename_to_Gambia" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:42, 9 November 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Parthian_Scribe-2008-11-09T22:42:00.000Z-Rename_to_Gambia"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Parthian_Scribe-2008-11-09T22:42:00.000Z-Rename_to_Gambia"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DavidWBrooks-2008-11-10T01:19:00.000Z-Parthian_Scribe-2008-11-09T22:42:00.000Z"></span>Yes, lots of people do - see the discussions above; this has been talked to death, with no consensus for a move. - <a href="/wiki/User:DavidWBrooks" title="User:DavidWBrooks">DavidWBrooks</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:DavidWBrooks" title="User talk:DavidWBrooks">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-DavidWBrooks-2008-11-10T01:19:00.000Z-Parthian_Scribe-2008-11-09T22:42:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:19, 10 November 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DavidWBrooks-2008-11-10T01:19:00.000Z-Parthian_Scribe-2008-11-09T22:42:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DavidWBrooks-2008-11-10T01:19:00.000Z-Parthian_Scribe-2008-11-09T22:42:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Varlaam-2009-05-11T00:18:00.000Z-DavidWBrooks-2008-11-10T01:19:00.000Z"></span>I agree with Parthian Scribe. <a href="/wiki/User:Varlaam" title="User:Varlaam">Varlaam</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Varlaam" title="User talk:Varlaam">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Varlaam-2009-05-11T00:18:00.000Z-DavidWBrooks-2008-11-10T01:19:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:18, 11 May 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Varlaam-2009-05-11T00:18:00.000Z-DavidWBrooks-2008-11-10T01:19:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Varlaam-2009-05-11T00:18:00.000Z-DavidWBrooks-2008-11-10T01:19:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="the_Gambia,_Gambia_or_The_Gambia?" data-mw-thread-id="h-the_Gambia,_Gambia_or_The_Gambia?-2009-05-19T05:14:00.000Z"><span id="the_Gambia.2C_Gambia_or_The_Gambia.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-the_Gambia,_Gambia_or_The_Gambia?-2009-05-19T05:14:00.000Z"></span>the Gambia, Gambia or The Gambia?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-the_Gambia,_Gambia_or_The_Gambia?-2009-05-19T05:14:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-CyclePat-2009-05-19T05:14:00.000Z-the_Gambia,_Gambia_or_The_Gambia?"></span>Someone request a move of many pages pertaining to "The Gambia". Is that how it's spelt? Any references for this because this article seems to start out okay, but later it ends up going to "the Gambia". --<a href="/wiki/User:CyclePat" title="User:CyclePat">CyclePat</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:CyclePat" title="User talk:CyclePat">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-CyclePat-2009-05-19T05:14:00.000Z-the_Gambia,_Gambia_or_The_Gambia?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:14, 19 May 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-CyclePat-2009-05-19T05:14:00.000Z-the_Gambia,_Gambia_or_The_Gambia?"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-CyclePat-2009-05-19T05:14:00.000Z-the_Gambia,_Gambia_or_The_Gambia?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-CyclePat-2009-05-19T05:16:00.000Z-CyclePat-2009-05-19T05:14:00.000Z"></span>I just looked at the above discussions. I guess those are mistakes? --<a href="/wiki/User:CyclePat" title="User:CyclePat">CyclePat</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:CyclePat" title="User talk:CyclePat">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-CyclePat-2009-05-19T05:16:00.000Z-CyclePat-2009-05-19T05:14:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:16, 19 May 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-CyclePat-2009-05-19T05:16:00.000Z-CyclePat-2009-05-19T05:14:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-CyclePat-2009-05-19T05:16:00.000Z-CyclePat-2009-05-19T05:14:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Lithuania" data-mw-thread-id="h-Lithuania-2009-07-23T17:55:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Lithuania-2009-07-23T17:55:00.000Z"></span>Lithuania<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Lithuania-2009-07-23T17:55:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-86.100.228.119-2009-07-23T17:55:00.000Z-Lithuania"></span>Jacob Kettler wasn't a polish vasal, he was a LITHUANIAN vasal as he swore to Žygymantas Augustas, the last duke of independent Lithuanian Grand Duchy, before the Liublin union. Correct the mistake.--<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/86.100.228.119" title="Special:Contributions/86.100.228.119">86.100.228.119</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:86.100.228.119" title="User talk:86.100.228.119">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-86.100.228.119-2009-07-23T17:55:00.000Z-Lithuania" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:55, 23 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-86.100.228.119-2009-07-23T17:55:00.000Z-Lithuania"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-86.100.228.119-2009-07-23T17:55:00.000Z-Lithuania"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Call_for_editors_to_collaborate_on_a_new_African_history_Wikiproject" data-mw-thread-id="h-Call_for_editors_to_collaborate_on_a_new_African_history_Wikiproject-2009-08-11T16:00:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Call_for_editors_to_collaborate_on_a_new_African_history_Wikiproject-2009-08-11T16:00:00.000Z"></span>Call for editors to collaborate on a new African history Wikiproject<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Call_for_editors_to_collaborate_on_a_new_African_history_Wikiproject-2009-08-11T16:00:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ackees-2009-08-11T16:00:00.000Z-Call_for_editors_to_collaborate_on_a_new_African_history_Wikiproject"></span>All editors with a specific interest in African history are invited to help start a new African history Wikiproject. This is not a substitute for the Africa Wikiproject, but editors with a historian's perspective on African history articles (as opposed to a generalist interest in Africa) would collaborate on improving the historical quality of Wikipedia articles about Africa and African history. For more details click <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals/African_history" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/African history">here</a> or here <a href="/wiki/User:Ackees/WikiProject_African_history" title="User:Ackees/WikiProject African history">here</a>. </p><p><a href="/wiki/User:Ackees" title="User:Ackees">Ackees</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ackees" title="User talk:Ackees">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Ackees-2009-08-11T16:00:00.000Z-Call_for_editors_to_collaborate_on_a_new_African_history_Wikiproject" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:00, 11 August 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ackees-2009-08-11T16:00:00.000Z-Call_for_editors_to_collaborate_on_a_new_African_history_Wikiproject"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ackees-2009-08-11T16:00:00.000Z-Call_for_editors_to_collaborate_on_a_new_African_history_Wikiproject"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Requested_move" data-mw-thread-id="h-Requested_move-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Requested_move-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z"></span>Requested move<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Requested_move-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"> <dl><dd><i><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chamal_N-2010-03-20T06:26:00.000Z-Requested_move"></span>The following discussion is an archived discussion of a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RM" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RM">requested move</a>. <span style="color:red"><b>Please do not modify it.</b></span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. </i></dd></dl> <p>The result of the move request was: <b>Not moved</b> ≈ <a href="/wiki/User:Chamal_N" title="User:Chamal N"><b>C</b>hamal</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chamal_N" title="User talk:Chamal N"><sup><span style="color:#00008B;">talk</span></sup></a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Chamal_N" title="Special:Contributions/Chamal N">¤</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Chamal_N-2010-03-20T06:26:00.000Z-Requested_move" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:26, 20 March 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chamal_N-2010-03-20T06:26:00.000Z-Requested_move"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chamal_N-2010-03-20T06:26:00.000Z-Requested_move"></span> </p> <hr/> <p><br/> <a href="/wiki/The_Gambia" title="The Gambia"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-84.92.117.93-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z-Requested_move"></span>The Gambia</a> → <a href="/wiki/Gambia" class="mw-redirect" title="Gambia">Gambia</a> — Most other countries using the definate article are titled without it on Wikipedia, such as <a href="/wiki/Netherlands" title="Netherlands">Netherlands</a> and <a href="/wiki/Philippines" title="Philippines">Philippines</a>. I've read the above failed proposal, but I don't see any convincing reason not to move. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/84.92.117.93" title="Special:Contributions/84.92.117.93">84.92.117.93</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:84.92.117.93" title="User talk:84.92.117.93">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-84.92.117.93-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z-Requested_move" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:31, 11 March 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-84.92.117.93-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z-Requested_move"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-84.92.117.93-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z-Requested_move"></span> </p> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Johnbod-2010-03-12T18:06:00.000Z-84.92.117.93-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z"></span>Oppose</b> per the 2008 debate, unless you can come up with better arguments than that. The BBC still uses <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8517620.stm">"The Gambia" mid-sentence, which it does NOT for [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/1043528.stm the Netherlands</a> etc. <a href="/wiki/User:Johnbod" title="User:Johnbod">Johnbod</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Johnbod" title="User talk:Johnbod">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Johnbod-2010-03-12T18:06:00.000Z-84.92.117.93-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:06, 12 March 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Johnbod-2010-03-12T18:06:00.000Z-84.92.117.93-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Johnbod-2010-03-12T18:06:00.000Z-84.92.117.93-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-84.92.117.93-2010-03-12T19:03:00.000Z-Johnbod-2010-03-12T18:06:00.000Z"></span>The BBC doesn't appear to be consistent on this matter: it talks about <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/17/newsid_2546000/2546949.stm">"colonial rule in Gambia"</a> on another page for example, and while it has a country profile on Gambia as <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/country_profiles/1032156.stm">"The Gambia"</a>, it also has a country profile on <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/1043423.stm">"The Netherlands"</a>. If anything, I would argue that if anything in English people actually almost always use "the Netherlands" or "Holland" in common speech (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/hockey/8564905.stm">"England face the Netherlands in a bronze medal play-off"</a>), but mostly use "Gambia" without the definite article (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gCCpkbVSGmhG5L1uCF9slV0fiM7A">"while Gambia is viewed as stable, it is regularly criticised for human rights abuses..."</a>). I can produce more evidence if required. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/84.92.117.93" title="Special:Contributions/84.92.117.93">84.92.117.93</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:84.92.117.93" title="User talk:84.92.117.93">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-84.92.117.93-2010-03-12T19:03:00.000Z-Johnbod-2010-03-12T18:06:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:03, 12 March 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-84.92.117.93-2010-03-12T19:03:00.000Z-Johnbod-2010-03-12T18:06:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-84.92.117.93-2010-03-12T19:03:00.000Z-Johnbod-2010-03-12T18:06:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Johnbod-2010-03-12T19:15:00.000Z-84.92.117.93-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z"></span>In colonial times, and for a while after, it was "Gambia". It doesn't use "The" Netherlands mid-sentence - find an example! <a href="/wiki/User:Johnbod" title="User:Johnbod">Johnbod</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Johnbod" title="User talk:Johnbod">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Johnbod-2010-03-12T19:15:00.000Z-84.92.117.93-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:15, 12 March 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Johnbod-2010-03-12T19:15:00.000Z-84.92.117.93-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Johnbod-2010-03-12T19:15:00.000Z-84.92.117.93-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-84.92.117.93-2010-03-12T23:33:00.000Z-Johnbod-2010-03-12T19:15:00.000Z"></span>The country was renamed in the post-colonial, to avoid confusion with <a href="/wiki/Zambia" title="Zambia">Zambia</a>. There are plenty of examples of the BBC using <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8553979.stm">"the Netherlands"</a>, not with a capital T, but is that important? The inconsistancies in the BBC's usage of the name, shown above, mean we can surely discount the BBC as an authorative spelling guide in this instance. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/84.92.117.93" title="Special:Contributions/84.92.117.93">84.92.117.93</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:84.92.117.93" title="User talk:84.92.117.93">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-84.92.117.93-2010-03-12T23:33:00.000Z-Johnbod-2010-03-12T19:15:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:33, 12 March 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-84.92.117.93-2010-03-12T23:33:00.000Z-Johnbod-2010-03-12T19:15:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-84.92.117.93-2010-03-12T23:33:00.000Z-Johnbod-2010-03-12T19:15:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T01:28:00.000Z-84.92.117.93-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z"></span>Support</b> per nom. As I noted before, when someone starts saying things like "Yesterday, three The Gambian citizens were awarded gold medals" I might change my mind. — <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:AjaxSmack" title="User talk:AjaxSmack"><span style="color:#fef; background:navy;"><b> AjaxSmack </b></span></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T01:28:00.000Z-84.92.117.93-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:28, 13 March 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T01:28:00.000Z-84.92.117.93-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T01:28:00.000Z-84.92.117.93-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Skinsmoke-2010-03-13T17:00:00.000Z-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T01:28:00.000Z"></span>Not a good argument. The sentence structure would be changed to <i>Yesterday, three citizens of The Gambia were awarded gold medals</i>. <a href="/wiki/User:Skinsmoke" title="User:Skinsmoke">Skinsmoke</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Skinsmoke" title="User talk:Skinsmoke">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Skinsmoke-2010-03-13T17:00:00.000Z-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T01:28:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:00, 13 March 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Skinsmoke-2010-03-13T17:00:00.000Z-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T01:28:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Skinsmoke-2010-03-13T17:00:00.000Z-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T01:28:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Johnbod-2010-03-13T01:36:00.000Z-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T01:28:00.000Z"></span>The noun form has "The", the adjectival form not; this is in fact very common. Compare <a href="/wiki/The_New_York_Times" title="The New York Times">The New York Times</a> - do you say "three The New York Times journalists"? <a href="/wiki/User:Johnbod" title="User:Johnbod">Johnbod</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Johnbod" title="User talk:Johnbod">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Johnbod-2010-03-13T01:36:00.000Z-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T01:28:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:36, 13 March 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Johnbod-2010-03-13T01:36:00.000Z-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T01:28:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Johnbod-2010-03-13T01:36:00.000Z-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T01:28:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T01:41:00.000Z-Johnbod-2010-03-13T01:36:00.000Z"></span>No, I don't. I'll support a proposed move there too. — <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:AjaxSmack" title="User talk:AjaxSmack"><span style="color:#fef; background:navy;"><b> AjaxSmack </b></span></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T01:41:00.000Z-Johnbod-2010-03-13T01:36:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:41, 13 March 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T01:41:00.000Z-Johnbod-2010-03-13T01:36:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T01:41:00.000Z-Johnbod-2010-03-13T01:36:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Skinsmoke-2010-03-13T17:00:00.000Z-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T01:41:00.000Z"></span>Similarly, you would say <i>three journalists from The New York Times</i>. Either that or <i>three New York Times journalists</i> would be acceptable, so the point proves nothing, one way or the other. <a href="/wiki/User:Skinsmoke" title="User:Skinsmoke">Skinsmoke</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Skinsmoke" title="User talk:Skinsmoke">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Skinsmoke-2010-03-13T17:00:00.000Z-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T01:41:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:00, 13 March 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Skinsmoke-2010-03-13T17:00:00.000Z-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T01:41:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Skinsmoke-2010-03-13T17:00:00.000Z-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T01:41:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T17:50:00.000Z-Skinsmoke-2010-03-13T17:00:00.000Z"></span>Just as I would say three lads from <i>the</i> <a href="/wiki/White_House" title="White House">White House</a>, <i>the</i> <a href="/wiki/Porte" class="mw-disambig" title="Porte">Porte</a>, <i>the</i> <a href="/wiki/CIA" class="mw-redirect" title="CIA">CIA</a>, <i>the</i> <a href="/wiki/Kuomintang" title="Kuomintang">Kuomintang</a>, and so on. I'm pretty consistent in not wanting articles in front of article titles. Wikipedia isn't. — <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:AjaxSmack" title="User talk:AjaxSmack"><span style="color:#fef; background:navy;"><b> AjaxSmack </b></span></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T17:50:00.000Z-Skinsmoke-2010-03-13T17:00:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:50, 13 March 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T17:50:00.000Z-Skinsmoke-2010-03-13T17:00:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T17:50:00.000Z-Skinsmoke-2010-03-13T17:00:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Skinsmoke-2010-03-13T17:10:00.000Z-84.92.117.93-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z"></span>Oppose</b> This is just a reiteration of the 2008 discussion, which found no consensus to move. No new arguments have been forthcoming, and it strikes me as a case of <i>I just don't like it!</i>. <a href="/wiki/User:Skinsmoke" title="User:Skinsmoke">Skinsmoke</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Skinsmoke" title="User talk:Skinsmoke">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Skinsmoke-2010-03-13T17:10:00.000Z-84.92.117.93-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:10, 13 March 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Skinsmoke-2010-03-13T17:10:00.000Z-84.92.117.93-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Skinsmoke-2010-03-13T17:10:00.000Z-84.92.117.93-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T17:50:00.000Z-Skinsmoke-2010-03-13T17:10:00.000Z"></span>While it's true that I don't like it, my argument is not based on that alone. Current Wikipedia usage is arbitrary (as <a href="/wiki/User_talk:84.92.117.93" title="User talk:84.92.117.93">User:84.92.117.93</a> and I have illustrated above) and usage of articles in titles is contrary to a long tradition of English usage. No, I don't have any <i>new</i> arguments but rely on a broad interpretation of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:UE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:UE">WP:UE</a>. However, I posit there should be profound reason <i>for</i> the usage of articles in titles, a practice that counters the trend of modern English usage, especially in this case where other countries such as the Philippines and the Netherlands forgo this practice. Such reasons were lacking in 2008 and are lacking now. — <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:AjaxSmack" title="User talk:AjaxSmack"><span style="color:#fef; background:navy;"><b> AjaxSmack </b></span></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T17:50:00.000Z-Skinsmoke-2010-03-13T17:10:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:50, 13 March 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T17:50:00.000Z-Skinsmoke-2010-03-13T17:10:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AjaxSmack-2010-03-13T17:50:00.000Z-Skinsmoke-2010-03-13T17:10:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></li></ul> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Innotata-2010-03-13T20:20:00.000Z-84.92.117.93-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z"></span>Oppose</b> as per above discussion. —<a href="/wiki/User:Innotata" title="User:Innotata"><i>innotata</i></a> <small>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Innotata" title="User talk:Innotata">Talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Innotata" title="Special:Contributions/Innotata">Contribs</a>)</small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Innotata-2010-03-13T20:20:00.000Z-84.92.117.93-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:20, 13 March 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Innotata-2010-03-13T20:20:00.000Z-84.92.117.93-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Innotata-2010-03-13T20:20:00.000Z-84.92.117.93-2010-03-11T20:31:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-84.92.117.93-2010-03-16T20:38:00.000Z-Innotata-2010-03-13T20:20:00.000Z"></span>Since you didn't make a commment in the above move request, I would like to know what your exact reasons for opposing the move are so I can properly address them. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/84.92.117.93" title="Special:Contributions/84.92.117.93">84.92.117.93</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:84.92.117.93" title="User talk:84.92.117.93">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-84.92.117.93-2010-03-16T20:38:00.000Z-Innotata-2010-03-13T20:20:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:38, 16 March 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-84.92.117.93-2010-03-16T20:38:00.000Z-Innotata-2010-03-13T20:20:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-84.92.117.93-2010-03-16T20:38:00.000Z-Innotata-2010-03-13T20:20:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><i>The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RM" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RM">requested move</a>. <span style="color:red"><b>Please do not modify it.</b></span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</i></dd></dl></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Related_category_hierarchy_nominated_for_renaming" data-mw-thread-id="h-Related_category_hierarchy_nominated_for_renaming-2010-10-09T00:51:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Related_category_hierarchy_nominated_for_renaming-2010-10-09T00:51:00.000Z"></span>Related category hierarchy nominated for renaming<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Related_category_hierarchy_nominated_for_renaming-2010-10-09T00:51:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Meco-2010-10-09T00:51:00.000Z-Related_category_hierarchy_nominated_for_renaming"></span>Please see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2010_October_8#Subcategories_of_Category:The_Gambia" title="Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2010 October 8">Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2010 October 8#Subcategories of Category:The Gambia</a>. The name change is the one that has been discussed here with respect to writing the definite article in upper or lower case. __<a href="/wiki/User:Meco" title="User:Meco">meco</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Meco" title="User talk:Meco">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Meco-2010-10-09T00:51:00.000Z-Related_category_hierarchy_nominated_for_renaming" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:51, 9 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Meco-2010-10-09T00:51:00.000Z-Related_category_hierarchy_nominated_for_renaming"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Meco-2010-10-09T00:51:00.000Z-Related_category_hierarchy_nominated_for_renaming"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Meco-2010-11-21T10:23:00.000Z-Meco-2010-10-09T00:51:00.000Z"></span>As a follow-up of the above renaming to the uniform spelling of <b>the Gambia</b> with a lower case <i>t</i> in <i>the</i>, I have proposed the renaming of articles similarly. Please see <a href="/wiki/Talk:History_of_The_Gambia#Requested_move(s)_–_Move_to_uncapitalized_article_names" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:History of The Gambia">Talk:History of The Gambia#Requested move(s) – Move to uncapitalized article names</a>. __<a href="/wiki/User:Meco" title="User:Meco">meco</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Meco" title="User talk:Meco">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Meco-2010-11-21T10:23:00.000Z-Meco-2010-10-09T00:51:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:23, 21 November 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Meco-2010-11-21T10:23:00.000Z-Meco-2010-10-09T00:51:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Meco-2010-11-21T10:23:00.000Z-Meco-2010-10-09T00:51:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="RfC:_The_Gambia_or_the_Gambia" data-mw-thread-id="h-RfC:_The_Gambia_or_the_Gambia-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-RfC:_The_Gambia_or_the_Gambia-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span>RfC: The Gambia or the Gambia<span data-mw-comment-end="h-RfC:_The_Gambia_or_the_Gambia-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Llywrch-2011-01-09T23:30:00.000Z-RfC:_The_Gambia_or_the_Gambia"></span><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1250141580">.mw-parser-output .archive-top{background-color:#EDEAFF;color:inherit;padding:0 0.6em;border:1px solid #8779DD}.mw-parser-output .archive-top-result .side-box-abovebelow{background-color:#c3c3c3;color:inherit;text-align:center;font-size:110%;font-weight:bold}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .archive-top{background-color:#181424;border:1px solid #8072d6;color:#fff}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .archive-top-result .side-box-abovebelow{background-color:#141126;color:#fff}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .archive-top{background-color:#181424;border:1px solid #8072d6;color:#fff}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .archive-top-result .side-box-abovebelow{background-color:#141126;color:#fff}}@media(min-width:640px){.mw-parser-output .archive-top-result{width:30%}}</style><div class="boilerplate archived archive-top mw-archivedtalk" style=""> <div class="boilerplate-header" style="margin-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic;"> <p>The following discussion is closed. <strong style="color: var(--color-error, red);">Please do not modify it.</strong> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. </p> </div> <hr/> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1235781174">.mw-parser-output .hmbox-outer{margin-left:1em}.mw-parser-output .hmbox-inner{display:inline-block;color:var(--color-base,#202122);border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);background-color:var(--background-color-interactive-subtle,#f8f9fa);margin-right:0.5em;padding:0.3em 0.5em}</style><div role="note" class="hmbox-outer unresolved"><div class="hmbox-inner"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8b/Red_question_mark.svg/20px-Red_question_mark.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8b/Red_question_mark.svg/30px-Red_question_mark.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8b/Red_question_mark.svg/40px-Red_question_mark.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="450" data-file-height="450"/></span></span> Unresolved</div> – <span style="font-size: 85%">The matter here failed to reach a consensus, with 6 people arguing to capitalize "the", 5 arguing not to capitalize, and 1 stating she/he was happy with either. The usual course would be to look back to any prior discussion, & follow the consensus reached there; that would be the CfD discussion Jafeluv references below, which was to not capitalize "the". However, this RfC was opened because a number of people objected to that consensus, so the only fair result is to say no consensus exists, & more discussion is needed before one is achieved. As a further point, since the changes made to various categories were in good faith based on that discussion, those changes should not be reverted, & anyone doing that is being <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DISRUPTION" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DISRUPTION">disruptive</a> & should be appropriately sanctioned.<p> Looking at the discussion more closely, there are a number of points made which should be accepted as proven -- & some which I'm surprised were never addressed. </p><dl><dt>Points proven</dt> <dd></dd></dl> <ul><li>Is this change to the article's name -- "The Gambia" to "the Gambia" possible? Yes, by using <code>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Lowercase_title" title="Template:Lowercase title">Lowercase title</a>}}</code>.</li> <li>What is the attested practice in other reference works? Bsherr has found two official uses of "the Gambia"; but Jimfbleak has found at least as many official uses of "The Gambia". Attested practice seems to be split on this issue.</li> <li>Capitalizing "the" in a name is, I'd like to point out, unnatural in English usage; it is only done for emphasis, usually sarcastic emphasis. If I may put words in people's mouths, this is the primary motivation for people objecting to capitalization. And this is why examples like "the Netherlands or the United States of America" were mentioned.</li></ul> <dl><dt>Points in need of further discussion</dt></dl> <ul><li>A more comprehensive survey of official usage, both by the country of this name, as well as by other groups. Yes, this would be arguing by numbers or Google hits, but at the moment the handful of examples provided make any decision based on that point cherry-picking.</li> <li>There is at least one other example of "the" in a name being capitalized -- <a href="/wiki/The_Dalles,_Oregon" title="The Dalles, Oregon">The Dalles</a>, a town in Oregon, named after an adjacent landmark. It is the only placename in Oregon, & perhaps the United States, in which "the" is part of its name. If you refer to the town as simply "Dalles", you will get a puzzled look & a correcting to "The Dalles." This example is far more relevant, IMHO, than "the United States", or "the United Kingdom" or "the Soviet Union", which are names derived from their administrative organization: respectively, the United States is a union of states, the United Kingdom is a union of at least two royalties (I don't know if Wales, Northern Ireland, Cornwall & the Isle of Man are considered to be on the same standing as England & Scotland), & the Soviet Union is a union of soviets -- the Russian word for local meetings or councils.</li> <li>Is "The Gambia" a compound word? People brought up this point only to dismiss it, but not to properly explore it. One could argue that "The Dalles" is a compound word, & if "The Gambia" is also one, then it should be capitalized.</li> <li>The function of "the" in this name. This is an important point which I'm surprised neither side raised: geographical locations are often referred to by prefixing "the" to the noun (e.g., "The Balkans", "the Ivory Coast", etc.) And the presence of "the" can change the meaning of the noun in a significant way: "Lebanon" refers to the country, while "the Lebanon" refers to the geographical area Lebanon is coterminous in; "Sudan" refers to the country, while "the Sudan" refers to a belt of savanna which includes far more area than the country. If "the" is likewise germane in the name of this country, then it is an integral part of the word & should be capitalized. Just as "the" is in "The Dalles".</li></ul> <b>Note</b>: While this may appear that I am biassed towards capitalizing "the" here, had there a clear majority in favor of <b>not</b> capitalizing -- or persuasive arguments based on more than the unnaturalness of capitalizing -- I would have closed this discussion in that way. On the other hand, there was not a clear majority for capitalizing, & most of the arguments for this were based on how many official usages people could find which did capitalize "the". I couldn't help but come to this discussion with my own thoughts of how the outcome should be, & had my concerns been addressed by both parties, I would have endorsed the persuasive argument. This is a peculiar situation, where an exception may prove the rule -- or be required to follow it -- & requires more thought than counting examples of usage. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Llywrch" title="User:Llywrch">llywrch</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Llywrch" title="User talk:Llywrch">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Llywrch-2011-01-09T23:30:00.000Z-RfC:_The_Gambia_or_the_Gambia" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:30, 9 January 2011 (UTC)</a><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Llywrch-2011-01-09T23:30:00.000Z-RfC:_The_Gambia_or_the_Gambia"></span></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Llywrch-2011-01-09T23:30:00.000Z-RfC:_The_Gambia_or_the_Gambia"></span></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z-RfC:_The_Gambia_or_the_Gambia"></span>Short version: Should the definite article in the country name <a href="/wiki/The_Gambia" title="The Gambia">The Gambia</a> be capitalized or not? </p><p>Long version: A large number of pages were recently moved to include "the Gambia" instead of "The Gambia" as the page title. This was done after a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2010_October_8#Subcategories_of_Category:The_Gambia" title="Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2010 October 8">CFD discussion</a> in October and a subsequent <a href="/wiki/Talk:History_of_the_Gambia#Requested_move(s)_–_Move_to_uncapitalized_article_names" title="Talk:History of the Gambia">move request</a>. Because the discussions attracted few participants and because not all interested editors were notified, the moves have since been disputed; see <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jafeluv#The_Gambia" title="User talk:Jafeluv">discussion</a> on my talk page. </p><p>Please try to come to a consensus in this matter. If there's no clear consensus either way, the articles may need to be moved back to the <i>status quo ante</i>, although that is for the closing editor to decide. In any case I can help perform the actual moves if needed once the issue is settled. <a href="/wiki/User:Jafeluv" title="User:Jafeluv">Jafeluv</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jafeluv" title="User talk:Jafeluv">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z-RfC:_The_Gambia_or_the_Gambia" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:23, 4 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z-RfC:_The_Gambia_or_the_Gambia"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z-RfC:_The_Gambia_or_the_Gambia"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TCNSV-2010-12-09T16:42:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span>I don't think that there would be any need to move. <code>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Lowercase_title" title="Template:Lowercase title">Lowercase title</a>}}</code> works fine, and achieves the same purpose. <a href="/wiki/User:TeleComNasSprVen" title="User:TeleComNasSprVen"><span style="color:red;">:| TelCo</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:TCNSV" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:TCNSV"><span style="color:green;">NaSp</span></a><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:TCNSV/PMD&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:TCNSV/PMD (page does not exist)"><span style="font-family:Showcard Gothic; color:blue;">Ve :|</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-TCNSV-2010-12-09T16:42:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:42, 9 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TCNSV-2010-12-09T16:42:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TCNSV-2010-12-09T16:42:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-04T05:47:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span>Uncapitalize</b>. As I explained at the CfD, the <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://unterm.un.org/dgaacs/unterm.nsf/">United Nations Multilingual Terminology Database</a> states that the article ("the") is uncapitalized.</li></ul> <dl><dd>In Oxford, two forms are recognized, "Gambia" or "the Gambia", article uncapitalized. <small>"Gambia" <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.oxfordreference.com/views/ENTRY.html?subview=Main&entry=t140.e30421">The Oxford Dictionary of English</a> (revised edition). Ed. Catherine Soanes and Angus Stevenson. Oxford University Press, 2005. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press. 11 October 2010</small></dd> <dd>Productive for this discussion will be reliable sources speaking directly to how the country name should be used, not anecdotal examples.</dd> <dd>--<a href="/wiki/User:Bsherr" title="User:Bsherr">Bsherr</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bsherr" title="User talk:Bsherr">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Bsherr-2010-12-04T05:47:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:47, 4 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-04T05:47:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bsherr-2010-12-04T05:47:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-04T06:40:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span>Capitalise "The"</b> A country's name isn't a matter for a Wikipedia vote, nor is it obvious to me why Oxford is a more reliable source than <a href="/wiki/Banjul" title="Banjul">Banjul</a>. The Gambia itself uses "The" on <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.gambia.gm/intro.htm">the government website</a> and <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.un.int/wcm/content/site/gambia/">its UN mission</a>, and it's also used by <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://ukingambia.fco.gov.uk/en/">The British High Commission in Banjul</a> and the <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://banjul.usembassy.gov/index.html">US embassy in Banjul</a>. I think it's frankly insulting that Wikipedia editors, most of whom have scarcely heard of The Gambia, let alone been there, think they know better than the government of the country and missions/embassies based in The Gambia. <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"><a href="/wiki/User:Jimfbleak" title="User:Jimfbleak"><span style="color:red;">Jimfbleak</span></a> - </b><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimfbleak" title="User talk:Jimfbleak"><span style="font-family:arial; color:green;"> talk to me?</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-04T06:40:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:40, 4 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-04T06:40:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-04T06:40:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TCNSV-2010-12-04T07:58:00.000Z-Jimfbleak-2010-12-04T06:40:00.000Z"></span>Comment</b> We are not attempting to change the name of any country; rather, we are only trying to change the way the name of said country is presented within the boundaries of an encyclopedia. Per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:COMMONNAME" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:COMMONNAME">WP:COMMONNAME</a>, regardless of whether the official name really is "The Gambia", we should try to focus more on how much usage there is of the specific version of the name to find that which is most prevalent within the English language. <a href="/wiki/User:TeleComNasSprVen" title="User:TeleComNasSprVen"><span style="color:red;">:| TelCo</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:TCNSV" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:TCNSV"><span style="color:green;">NaSp</span></a><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:TCNSV/PMD&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:TCNSV/PMD (page does not exist)"><span style="font-family:Showcard Gothic; color:blue;">Ve :|</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-TCNSV-2010-12-04T07:58:00.000Z-Jimfbleak-2010-12-04T06:40:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:58, 4 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TCNSV-2010-12-04T07:58:00.000Z-Jimfbleak-2010-12-04T06:40:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TCNSV-2010-12-04T07:58:00.000Z-Jimfbleak-2010-12-04T06:40:00.000Z"></span></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:39:00.000Z-Jimfbleak-2010-12-04T06:40:00.000Z"></span>If you can find a Gambian source speaking directly to whether the article should be capitalized, I would give it significant deference. Anecdotal evidence, like how it's used on a web site, is weaker because the author had no intention of legislating the convention. On the contrary, one would expect that the United Nations and Oxford conscientiously researched the matter before making a determination. --<a href="/wiki/User:Bsherr" title="User:Bsherr">Bsherr</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bsherr" title="User talk:Bsherr">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:39:00.000Z-Jimfbleak-2010-12-04T06:40:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:39, 5 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:39:00.000Z-Jimfbleak-2010-12-04T06:40:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:39:00.000Z-Jimfbleak-2010-12-04T06:40:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rsl12-2010-12-07T22:30:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:39:00.000Z"></span>I disagree that the government's official website counts as "anecdotal evidence" of a certain usage. Rather, I think this is addressed in <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SELFPUB" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SELFPUB">WP:SELFPUB</a>, i.e., self-published sources can be used as sources of information about themselves, provided that there's no reason to suspect they're not being truthful about the information. --<span style="font-family:Garamond, Palatino Linotype"><a href="/wiki/User:Rsl12" title="User:Rsl12">RSL</a><i><big><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rsl12" title="User talk:Rsl12">xii</a></big></i></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Rsl12-2010-12-07T22:30:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:30, 7 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rsl12-2010-12-07T22:30:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:39:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rsl12-2010-12-07T22:30:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:39:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T19:18:00.000Z-Rsl12-2010-12-07T22:30:00.000Z"></span>I'm not saying government web sites are not reliable, which is an opinion. I'm saying they're anecdotal, which is a fact, not an opinion. Sources that say "the article preceding Gambia should/shouldn't be capitalized" (or something equally definitive) are not anecdotal. Everything else is anecdotal. You misunderstand the term, I think.--<a href="/wiki/User:Bsherr" title="User:Bsherr">Bsherr</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bsherr" title="User talk:Bsherr">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T19:18:00.000Z-Rsl12-2010-12-07T22:30:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:18, 8 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T19:18:00.000Z-Rsl12-2010-12-07T22:30:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T19:18:00.000Z-Rsl12-2010-12-07T22:30:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mlm42-2010-12-09T20:25:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-08T19:18:00.000Z"></span>In that case, the OED and UN references you provided are also "anecdotal". <a href="/wiki/User:Mlm42" title="User:Mlm42">Mlm42</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mlm42" title="User talk:Mlm42">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Mlm42-2010-12-09T20:25:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-08T19:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:25, 9 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mlm42-2010-12-09T20:25:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-08T19:18:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mlm42-2010-12-09T20:25:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-08T19:18:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></li></ul></li></ul></li></ul></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moondyne-2010-12-04T08:02:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span>Uncapitalise</b>. I think that the capitalised version has been used in the same way as <a href="/wiki/The_Netherlands" class="mw-redirect" title="The Netherlands">The Netherlands</a> or <a href="/wiki/The_United_States_of_America" class="mw-redirect" title="The United States of America">The United States of America</a> (both are redirects). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://unterm.un.org/dgaacs/unterm.nsf/WebView/50EFA91213CE690885256DC700440A3C?OpenDocument">UNTERM</a> explicitly leaves it lower case. –<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moondyne" title="User talk:Moondyne">Moondyne</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Moondyne-2010-12-04T08:02:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:02, 4 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moondyne-2010-12-04T08:02:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moondyne-2010-12-04T08:02:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bobrayner-2010-12-04T08:51:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span>Comment</b> Although my personal preference would be for The Gambia, I would suggest that we should look for the <i>common</i> name, per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:COMMON" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:COMMON">WP:COMMON</a>, rather than rely on any particular single source. Also, why would a lack of consensus lead to a move? If a previous discussion among a subset of people reached a consensus to move from A to B, and then a larger discussion fails to produce a consensus either way, where's the mandate to move from B back to A? <a href="/wiki/User:Bobrayner" title="User:Bobrayner">bobrayner</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bobrayner" title="User talk:Bobrayner">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Bobrayner-2010-12-04T08:51:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:51, 4 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bobrayner-2010-12-04T08:51:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bobrayner-2010-12-04T08:51:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MeegsC-2010-12-08T16:39:00.000Z-Bobrayner-2010-12-04T08:51:00.000Z"></span>Possibly because three previous votes (see above on this page) were clearly in favor of leaving it at "The Gambia". If the most recent vote had been announced to ALL interested parties, rather than a subset, it could have had a different outcome. <a href="/wiki/User:MeegsC" title="User:MeegsC">MeegsC</a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:MeegsC" title="User talk:MeegsC">Talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-MeegsC-2010-12-08T16:39:00.000Z-Bobrayner-2010-12-04T08:51:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:39, 8 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MeegsC-2010-12-08T16:39:00.000Z-Bobrayner-2010-12-04T08:51:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MeegsC-2010-12-08T16:39:00.000Z-Bobrayner-2010-12-04T08:51:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Meco-2010-12-04T09:31:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span>Uncapitalize</b>. Although I am willing to change my opinion should persuasive positions be presented to support "The Gambia", we have had one thorough discussion (the CfD) on this and then a follow-up move process of more than 70 pages that had the capitalized spelling in the page names. Notification was given <a href="#Related_category_hierarchy_nominated_for_renaming">above</a> in both instances. For this reason I also object to the position that no consensus should default to status quo ante. That might have been appropriate had the two previous processes been undertaken in a swift and non-collaborative way, but both processes were done rather meticulously. (I will however conceded that the move process was stained by the technical faultiness of the move procedure, where the template used for mass (umbrella) move nominations cannot handle more than 20 pages and add to that the bot making notifications on talk pages of the nominated pages only does so on the first ten. This means that most of the moved pages weren't notified of the ongoing move process.) __<a href="/wiki/User:Meco" title="User:Meco">meco</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Meco" title="User talk:Meco">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Meco-2010-12-04T09:31:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:31, 4 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Meco-2010-12-04T09:31:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Meco-2010-12-04T09:31:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Peaceworld111-2010-12-04T11:28:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span>Capitalize</b> the is part of the name of the country and so should be deserved to be capitalized or completely remove <i>the</i> from the heading like netherlands. Thanks. <a href="/wiki/User:Peaceworld111" title="User:Peaceworld111">Peaceworld111</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Peaceworld111" title="User talk:Peaceworld111">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Peaceworld111-2010-12-04T11:28:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:28, 4 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Peaceworld111-2010-12-04T11:28:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Peaceworld111-2010-12-04T11:28:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TCNSV-2010-12-04T19:20:00.000Z-Peaceworld111-2010-12-04T11:28:00.000Z"></span>Comment</b> That's an assertion with no following rationale. Why should "the" be capitalized even if it was part of the name of the country? Just because "the" does not exist before <a href="/wiki/Netherlands" title="Netherlands">Netherlands</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OTHERCRAPEXISTS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OTHERCRAPEXISTS">does not mean that this article should do the same</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:TeleComNasSprVen" title="User:TeleComNasSprVen"><span style="color:red;">:| TelCo</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:TCNSV" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:TCNSV"><span style="color:green;">NaSp</span></a><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:TCNSV/PMD&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:TCNSV/PMD (page does not exist)"><span style="font-family:Showcard Gothic; color:blue;">Ve :|</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-TCNSV-2010-12-04T19:20:00.000Z-Peaceworld111-2010-12-04T11:28:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:20, 4 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TCNSV-2010-12-04T19:20:00.000Z-Peaceworld111-2010-12-04T11:28:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TCNSV-2010-12-04T19:20:00.000Z-Peaceworld111-2010-12-04T11:28:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MeegsC-2010-12-04T12:57:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span>Capitalize</b>. "The" is part of the official English name of the country, and — as such — should be included in the title in its correct form (e.g. capitalized). "The" is not officially part of the name of the United States of America, and thus should not be included in the title. I'm not sure what to think about "The Netherlands", since that is a translation of the country's Dutch name. Just because some people refer to it incorrectly doesn't mean we should consider putting the article there. That's what redirects are for. Surely the job of an encyclopedia should be to <b>teach</b>, not to regurgitate incorrect information! <a href="/wiki/User:MeegsC" title="User:MeegsC">MeegsC</a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:MeegsC" title="User talk:MeegsC">Talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-MeegsC-2010-12-04T12:57:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:57, 4 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MeegsC-2010-12-04T12:57:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MeegsC-2010-12-04T12:57:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TCNSV-2010-12-04T19:18:00.000Z-MeegsC-2010-12-04T12:57:00.000Z"></span>Comment</b> That's wrong again. Please take a look at and reread <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:COMMONNAME" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:COMMONNAME">WP:COMMONNAME</a>. Regardless of whether the title of an article is correct or incorrect, we should be looking for the version of it that is of the most <i>common</i> use in the English language, preferably in reliable sources. <a href="/wiki/User:TeleComNasSprVen" title="User:TeleComNasSprVen"><span style="color:red;">:| TelCo</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:TCNSV" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:TCNSV"><span style="color:green;">NaSp</span></a><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:TCNSV/PMD&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:TCNSV/PMD (page does not exist)"><span style="font-family:Showcard Gothic; color:blue;">Ve :|</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-TCNSV-2010-12-04T19:18:00.000Z-MeegsC-2010-12-04T12:57:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:18, 4 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TCNSV-2010-12-04T19:18:00.000Z-MeegsC-2010-12-04T12:57:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TCNSV-2010-12-04T19:18:00.000Z-MeegsC-2010-12-04T12:57:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MeegsC-2010-12-05T01:57:00.000Z-TCNSV-2010-12-04T19:18:00.000Z"></span>Yes, I know what WP:COMMONNAME says. Not sure I fully agree with it, since it implies that we should go with the "mass decision" even when that's demonstrably wrong, but I certainly am fully aware of what it says. What I disagree with is the comment that "most people" (or even most sources) refer to it as "the Gambia". OED is not "most sources"! <a href="/wiki/User:MeegsC" title="User:MeegsC">MeegsC</a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:MeegsC" title="User talk:MeegsC">Talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-MeegsC-2010-12-05T01:57:00.000Z-TCNSV-2010-12-04T19:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:57, 5 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MeegsC-2010-12-05T01:57:00.000Z-TCNSV-2010-12-04T19:18:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MeegsC-2010-12-05T01:57:00.000Z-TCNSV-2010-12-04T19:18:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z-MeegsC-2010-12-04T12:57:00.000Z"></span>The UN indicates the official name of the country is "the Republic of the Gambia". Do you have a citation for your rendition of the official name? --<a href="/wiki/User:Bsherr" title="User:Bsherr">Bsherr</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bsherr" title="User talk:Bsherr">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z-MeegsC-2010-12-04T12:57:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:45, 5 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z-MeegsC-2010-12-04T12:57:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z-MeegsC-2010-12-04T12:57:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mlm42-2010-12-07T03:30:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z"></span>Yes: The New York Times. They state the official name is <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/gambia/index.html">"Republic of The Gambia"</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Mlm42" title="User:Mlm42">Mlm42</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mlm42" title="User talk:Mlm42">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Mlm42-2010-12-07T03:30:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:30, 7 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mlm42-2010-12-07T03:30:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mlm42-2010-12-07T03:30:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z"></span></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MeegsC-2010-12-08T16:34:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z"></span>And the <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ga.html">CIA Factbook</a>. Expand the "Government" section. <a href="/wiki/User:MeegsC" title="User:MeegsC">MeegsC</a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:MeegsC" title="User talk:MeegsC">Talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-MeegsC-2010-12-08T16:34:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:34, 8 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MeegsC-2010-12-08T16:34:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MeegsC-2010-12-08T16:34:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T17:57:00.000Z-MeegsC-2010-12-08T16:34:00.000Z"></span>That's compelling, but then later (if you expand the economy section) when the CIA uses it in a paragraph, it prints "the Gambia". --<a href="/wiki/User:Bsherr" title="User:Bsherr">Bsherr</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bsherr" title="User talk:Bsherr">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T17:57:00.000Z-MeegsC-2010-12-08T16:34:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:57, 8 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T17:57:00.000Z-MeegsC-2010-12-08T16:34:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T17:57:00.000Z-MeegsC-2010-12-08T16:34:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mlm42-2010-12-08T17:44:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z"></span>Also, the <a href="/wiki/African_Union" title="African Union">African Union</a> says: <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.au.int/?q=node/253">"officially the republic of The Gambia, commonly known as Gambia"</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Mlm42" title="User:Mlm42">Mlm42</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mlm42" title="User talk:Mlm42">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Mlm42-2010-12-08T17:44:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:44, 8 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mlm42-2010-12-08T17:44:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mlm42-2010-12-08T17:44:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T17:50:00.000Z-Mlm42-2010-12-08T17:44:00.000Z"></span>The heading of the page says "Republic of the Gambia", so I guess that's out as reliable. --<a href="/wiki/User:Bsherr" title="User:Bsherr">Bsherr</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bsherr" title="User talk:Bsherr">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T17:50:00.000Z-Mlm42-2010-12-08T17:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:50, 8 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T17:50:00.000Z-Mlm42-2010-12-08T17:44:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T17:50:00.000Z-Mlm42-2010-12-08T17:44:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mlm42-2010-12-08T18:03:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z"></span>Also, a UN webpage called "country facts" says <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.un.int/wcm/content/site/gambia/pid/3112">"Country Name conventional long form: Republic of The Gambia conventional short form: The Gambia"</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Mlm42" title="User:Mlm42">Mlm42</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mlm42" title="User talk:Mlm42">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Mlm42-2010-12-08T18:03:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:03, 8 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mlm42-2010-12-08T18:03:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mlm42-2010-12-08T18:03:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z"></span></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mlm42-2010-12-08T18:09:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z"></span>Also, the <a href="/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations" title="Commonwealth of Nations">Commonwealth of Nations</a> consistently refers to the country as <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.commonwealth-of-nations.org/Gambia%60_The">"The Gambia"</a>, capitalized (including in a <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://pdf.commonwealth-of-nations.org/pdf_download.php?countryCode=GM">15 page country report</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Mlm42" title="User:Mlm42">Mlm42</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mlm42" title="User talk:Mlm42">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Mlm42-2010-12-08T18:09:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:09, 8 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mlm42-2010-12-08T18:09:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mlm42-2010-12-08T18:09:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z"></span></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MeegsC-2010-12-08T18:39:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z"></span>Re: your comment above about websites and how they provide only "anecdotal use", Bsherr, I've just done a Google book search of "the Gambia"; check out the results yourself. (Don't just look at the screen's page listings, which are Google-created; actually look in the books themselves.) I've gone as far as the 5th page, and have yet to see the country referred to as "the Gambia; they are all "The Gambia". That includes Bradt and Rough Guide tourist guides, International Monetary Fund's publications, field guides to birds and flowers of the country, history books and more. <a href="/wiki/User:MeegsC" title="User:MeegsC">MeegsC</a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:MeegsC" title="User talk:MeegsC">Talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-MeegsC-2010-12-08T18:39:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:39, 8 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MeegsC-2010-12-08T18:39:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MeegsC-2010-12-08T18:39:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:45:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T19:15:00.000Z-MeegsC-2010-12-08T18:39:00.000Z"></span>Anecdotal evidence is saying it should be capitalized/uncapitalized because they use it capitalized/uncapitalized in this book/article/website. This is inferior to direct evidence, which is, it should be capitalized because this dictionary/gazetteer/style guide, speaking to the issue of whether it should be capitalized or uncapitalized, says it should/shouldn't. The reason anecdotal evidence is inferior is because the author of the source being used as anecdotal evidence did not intend to legislate the use of the term. Contrast that to direct sources, like the Oxford English Dictionary, which, presumably, deliberately researched which form is correct in reashing its determination. Or the United Nations Multilingual Terminology Database, the function of which is to definitively prescribe the form of proper nouns in all UN languages. News article and books are not compelling unless they are news articles or books <i>about</i> the correct letter casing of the Gambia. --<a href="/wiki/User:Bsherr" title="User:Bsherr">Bsherr</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bsherr" title="User talk:Bsherr">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T19:15:00.000Z-MeegsC-2010-12-08T18:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:15, 8 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T19:15:00.000Z-MeegsC-2010-12-08T18:39:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T19:15:00.000Z-MeegsC-2010-12-08T18:39:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T19:23:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-08T19:15:00.000Z"></span>Put another way, if 61% of the world says "the whether is sunny", that still doesn't make it correct English. Now, if you found that the majority of dictionaries say the definition of "whether" is "atmospheric environmental conditions affecting the troposphere", that would be compelling. --<a href="/wiki/User:Bsherr" title="User:Bsherr">Bsherr</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bsherr" title="User talk:Bsherr">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T19:23:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-08T19:15:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:23, 8 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T19:23:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-08T19:15:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T19:23:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-08T19:15:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mlm42-2010-12-08T19:40:00.000Z-MeegsC-2010-12-08T18:39:00.000Z"></span>Neither the UN source you point to, nor the OED <i>specifically comment</i> on the capitalization; in fact the OED prefers just "Gambia". Also I pointed to another UN source which does capitalize - namely the portion of their website which is specifically devoted to the country. Your "whether" analogy is off the mark; the country's own government prefers capitalization. <a href="/wiki/User:Mlm42" title="User:Mlm42">Mlm42</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mlm42" title="User talk:Mlm42">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Mlm42-2010-12-08T19:40:00.000Z-MeegsC-2010-12-08T18:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:40, 8 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mlm42-2010-12-08T19:40:00.000Z-MeegsC-2010-12-08T18:39:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mlm42-2010-12-08T19:40:00.000Z-MeegsC-2010-12-08T18:39:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T19:46:00.000Z-Mlm42-2010-12-08T19:40:00.000Z"></span>False. Both sources intentionally and determinatively set the word "the" in lower case. --<a href="/wiki/User:Bsherr" title="User:Bsherr">Bsherr</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bsherr" title="User talk:Bsherr">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T19:46:00.000Z-Mlm42-2010-12-08T19:40:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:46, 8 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T19:46:00.000Z-Mlm42-2010-12-08T19:40:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T19:46:00.000Z-Mlm42-2010-12-08T19:40:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></li></ul></li></ul></li></ul></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Banana04131-2010-12-05T06:10:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span>Un-capitalize</b> Per the sources provided by Bsherr and the common names policy. <a href="/wiki/Sudan" title="Sudan">Sudan</a> is officially the Republic of Sudan, <a href="/wiki/Egypt" title="Egypt">Egypt</a> is the Arab republic of Egypt, ect. I don't see any reason why this country is a special case. I'm confused by above comments stating that it is "insulting" to not use the official form from the government and other comments that dismiss the relevance of the common names policy. Policy is hammered out by a much bigger consensus then we will see participate here. Imagine a AFD discussion closing with a consensus to disregard the deletion criteria!--<a href="/wiki/User:Banana04131" title="User:Banana04131">Banana</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Banana04131" title="User talk:Banana04131">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Banana04131-2010-12-05T06:10:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:10, 5 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Banana04131-2010-12-05T06:10:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Banana04131-2010-12-05T06:10:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MeegsC-2010-12-05T14:16:00.000Z-Banana04131-2010-12-05T06:10:00.000Z"></span>Comment</b> If that's the case (pun intended), then perhaps it makes more sense to title it "Gambia" than "the Gambia"! BTW, one of Bsherr's two sources (OED) is not available unless one pays for a subscription. Not really a useful reference to include for most of us. <a href="/wiki/User:MeegsC" title="User:MeegsC">MeegsC</a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:MeegsC" title="User talk:MeegsC">Talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-MeegsC-2010-12-05T14:16:00.000Z-Banana04131-2010-12-05T06:10:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:16, 5 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MeegsC-2010-12-05T14:16:00.000Z-Banana04131-2010-12-05T06:10:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MeegsC-2010-12-05T14:16:00.000Z-Banana04131-2010-12-05T06:10:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:39:00.000Z-MeegsC-2010-12-05T14:16:00.000Z"></span>I regret that, but, unfortunately, the very best grammar and spelling references are not available for free. I prefer Oxford because it's the closest to an internationalized English and it's very, very expansive. Feel free to consult your favorite American or British dictionary and report back if the result is contradictory. It's not listed in Cambridge or Macmillain free online. <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gambia">Merriam-Webster</a> uses the uncapitalized article. --<a href="/wiki/User:Bsherr" title="User:Bsherr">Bsherr</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bsherr" title="User talk:Bsherr">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:39:00.000Z-MeegsC-2010-12-05T14:16:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:39, 5 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:39:00.000Z-MeegsC-2010-12-05T14:16:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:39:00.000Z-MeegsC-2010-12-05T14:16:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-05T14:39:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:39:00.000Z"></span>Comment</b>, nice, the OED and the UN are correct because they are based in Oxford and NY, whereas the Gambia-based sources I gave are ignored because it's just some grotty little African country, what do they know about their own name? <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"><a href="/wiki/User:Jimfbleak" title="User:Jimfbleak"><span style="color:red;">Jimfbleak</span></a> - </b><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimfbleak" title="User talk:Jimfbleak"><span style="font-family:arial; color:green;"> talk to me?</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-05T14:39:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:39, 5 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-05T14:39:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:39:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-05T14:39:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-05T19:39:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Banana04131-2010-12-05T22:38:00.000Z-Jimfbleak-2010-12-05T14:39:00.000Z"></span>Comment</b> I understand that you care about this issue, but please don't assume other editors prefer western viewpoints over African sources. No one has said anything like that. As I have explained above, the reason I do not think your sources are particularly relevant is that they are all from official government sources. We could find the same sources for Sudan, Egypt and many other countries, and yet they are listed at their common names. If you think a government's official name should override other sources, then you have a disagreement with policy. On a side note, whether a source is behind a paywall or not has nothing to do with this discussion. I routinely cite JSTOR articles on Wikipedia. --<a href="/wiki/User:Banana04131" title="User:Banana04131">Banana</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Banana04131" title="User talk:Banana04131">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Banana04131-2010-12-05T22:38:00.000Z-Jimfbleak-2010-12-05T14:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:38, 5 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Banana04131-2010-12-05T22:38:00.000Z-Jimfbleak-2010-12-05T14:39:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Banana04131-2010-12-05T22:38:00.000Z-Jimfbleak-2010-12-05T14:39:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zscout370-2010-12-05T14:27:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span>Capitalize</b> Even the Constitution of Gambia, which can be seen at www.ncce.gm/files/constitution.pdf, uses "The Gambia" in the Preabmle and Article 1. If the name of the country is set out in the Constitution, we should really use it (but I know it will not apply to Burma, which is a case on its own). <a href="/wiki/User:Zscout370" title="User:Zscout370">User:Zscout370</a> <small><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Zscout370" title="User talk:Zscout370">(Return Fire)</a></sup></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Zscout370-2010-12-05T14:27:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:27, 5 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zscout370-2010-12-05T14:27:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zscout370-2010-12-05T14:27:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bobrayner-2010-12-05T15:59:00.000Z-Zscout370-2010-12-05T14:27:00.000Z"></span>There are many cases where we don't use the "official" name given by the country's constitution (or some other big proclamation by the government). This is, quite often, because they like to throw in additional labels which aren't appropriate in the title or body of an encyclopaedia article; for instance "<i>Democratic Republic of X</i>", or "<i>People's Republic of Y</i>", or "<i>Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya where everybody loves Gaddafi but he's not a dictator, honest</i>"; but there are examples where there are issues of translation or grammar. Wikipedia has existing policies on names which do not always go with the "official" version; I'm happy to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:IAR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:IAR">bend rules</a> if there's a good reason, but am not convinced that Gambia is a special case. <a href="/wiki/User:Bobrayner" title="User:Bobrayner">bobrayner</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bobrayner" title="User talk:Bobrayner">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Bobrayner-2010-12-05T15:59:00.000Z-Zscout370-2010-12-05T14:27:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:59, 5 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bobrayner-2010-12-05T15:59:00.000Z-Zscout370-2010-12-05T14:27:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bobrayner-2010-12-05T15:59:00.000Z-Zscout370-2010-12-05T14:27:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-07T07:19:00.000Z-Bobrayner-2010-12-05T15:59:00.000Z"></span>Note that The Gambia's official language is English (interestingly, it's not the official language of either the US or UK) so o translation issue, also "The" is hardly "additional labels" <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"><a href="/wiki/User:Jimfbleak" title="User:Jimfbleak"><span style="color:red;">Jimfbleak</span></a> - </b><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimfbleak" title="User talk:Jimfbleak"><span style="font-family:arial; color:green;"> talk to me?</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-07T07:19:00.000Z-Bobrayner-2010-12-05T15:59:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:19, 7 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-07T07:19:00.000Z-Bobrayner-2010-12-05T15:59:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-07T07:19:00.000Z-Bobrayner-2010-12-05T15:59:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Casliber-2010-12-05T23:08:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span>leaning <b>Capitalize</b> -my impression that it is capitalised, but we need some review of sources - and i am happy to go with consensus on that one. <a href="/wiki/User:Casliber" title="User:Casliber">Casliber</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Casliber" title="User talk:Casliber">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Casliber" title="Special:Contributions/Casliber">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Casliber-2010-12-05T23:08:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:08, 5 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Casliber-2010-12-05T23:08:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Casliber-2010-12-05T23:08:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mlm42-2010-12-07T03:26:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span>Capitalize</b> The BBC (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/country_profiles/1032156.stm">here</a>) capitalizes, CNN (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://topics.cnn.com/topics/the_gambia">here</a>) and the New York Times (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://topics.cnn.com/topics/the_gambia">here</a>) seem to often write just "Gambia", but when they use <i>The</i>, then it's capitalized. A Google News search for "the Gambia", gives mixed results, but scanning the first few pages they lean slightly towards capitalization. As was noted above, their constitution capitalizes.. so given the division of the usage in reliable sources, (and hence the possible indecision of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:COMMONNAME" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:COMMONNAME">WP:COMMONNAME</a>), the constitution seems like a safe fall-back plan. <a href="/wiki/User:Mlm42" title="User:Mlm42">Mlm42</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mlm42" title="User talk:Mlm42">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Mlm42-2010-12-07T03:26:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:26, 7 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mlm42-2010-12-07T03:26:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mlm42-2010-12-07T03:26:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T17:52:00.000Z-Mlm42-2010-12-07T03:26:00.000Z"></span>Correct link to <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/gambia/">NY Times</a>. --<a href="/wiki/User:Bsherr" title="User:Bsherr">Bsherr</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bsherr" title="User talk:Bsherr">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T17:52:00.000Z-Mlm42-2010-12-07T03:26:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:52, 8 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T17:52:00.000Z-Mlm42-2010-12-07T03:26:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T17:52:00.000Z-Mlm42-2010-12-07T03:26:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rsl12-2010-12-07T21:53:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span>Leaning <b>Either Way (but make a decision quick instead of dragging this out)</b>. I think we can all agree that the usage of capitalization (and even the application of the "the") isn't consistent worldwide. The Chicago Manual of Style says "an initial <i>the</i> as part of a name is lowercased in running text, except in the rare case of an initial <i>the</i> in the name of a city." As examples, it mentions "the Netherlands" and "The Hague". A rule like the one presented in the Chicago Manual of style is at least a consistent, followable rule. And neither the Chicago Manual of Style nor the Oxford English Dictionary (which also recommends lower case) are references to be easily dismissed! On the other hand, worldwide common use seems to lean (very slightly) towards capitalization, the few other dictionaries I consulted seem to like a capitalized "The", and the fact that the official government webpage calls its country "The Gambia" should count for something. Rather than argue back and forth, why not stop now, agree that there's no obvious answer, and arbitrarily pick one or the other? And whatever gets decided, can someone inform the people at <a href="/wiki/The_Bahamas" title="The Bahamas">The Bahamas</a> article the result of this RFC? --<span style="font-family:Garamond, Palatino Linotype"><a href="/wiki/User:Rsl12" title="User:Rsl12"> RSL</a><i><big><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rsl12" title="User talk:Rsl12">xii</a></big></i></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Rsl12-2010-12-07T21:53:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:53, 7 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rsl12-2010-12-07T21:53:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rsl12-2010-12-07T21:53:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rsl12-2010-12-08T16:18:00.000Z-Rsl12-2010-12-07T21:53:00.000Z"></span>One final note: I'm not sure we can use <i>online sources</i> to determine what is the common capitalization. As The Gambia isn't currently an internationally newsworthy location, one could argue that the Gambia is only rarely discussed (in English) outside of the Gambia, and therefore common use is best determined by seeing the use inside The Gambia. But my main point still stands--since it's uncertain, let's pick either 'the' or 'The' and move on.--<span style="font-family:Garamond, Palatino Linotype"><a href="/wiki/User:Rsl12" title="User:Rsl12">RSL</a><i><big><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rsl12" title="User talk:Rsl12">xii</a></big></i></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Rsl12-2010-12-08T16:18:00.000Z-Rsl12-2010-12-07T21:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:18, 8 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rsl12-2010-12-08T16:18:00.000Z-Rsl12-2010-12-07T21:53:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rsl12-2010-12-08T16:18:00.000Z-Rsl12-2010-12-07T21:53:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T17:12:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span>How about Gambian newspapers, like <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://thepoint.gm/">The Point</a>, which uncapitalizes, and <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://observer.gm/">The Daily Observer</a>, which capitalizes? Looking at anecdotal sources doesn't get us anywhere. We should make a determination based on the weight of reliable sources speaking directly to the matter of capitalization, like the UN place names database, dictionaries, and style guides. --<a href="/wiki/User:Bsherr" title="User:Bsherr">Bsherr</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bsherr" title="User talk:Bsherr">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T17:12:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:12, 8 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T17:12:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bsherr-2010-12-08T17:12:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Good_Olfactory-2010-12-08T22:14:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span>Uncapitalise</b>. Even if the constitution or other official sources capitalise, I think a more "down style" is generally appropriate in an encyclopedia's writing. <a href="/wiki/User:Good_Olfactory" title="User:Good Olfactory">Good Ol’factory</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Good_Olfactory" title="User talk:Good Olfactory">(talk)</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Good_Olfactory-2010-12-08T22:14:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:14, 8 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Good_Olfactory-2010-12-08T22:14:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Good_Olfactory-2010-12-08T22:14:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rsl12-2010-12-09T20:52:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span>Another style guide, this one from the <i>Economist Intelligence Unit</i> (related to <i>The Economist</i> magazine) says to always capitalize the "The": <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.scribd.com/doc/30651060/Style-Book">http://www.scribd.com/doc/30651060/Style-Book</a>. This is the last you'll hear from me--the issue is not clear cut, nor is it particularly important. I hope editors will refrain from stubbornness and allow this to be decided quickly. The sooner you finish here, the sooner your bright brains can help with more important issues at Wikipedia! --<span style="font-family:Garamond, Palatino Linotype"><a href="/wiki/User:Rsl12" title="User:Rsl12">RSL</a><i><big><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rsl12" title="User talk:Rsl12">xii</a></big></i></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Rsl12-2010-12-09T20:52:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:52, 9 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rsl12-2010-12-09T20:52:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rsl12-2010-12-09T20:52:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <ul><li><ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Meco-2010-12-10T02:39:00.000Z-Rsl12-2010-12-09T20:52:00.000Z"></span>Also, when we're finished here someone should make an entry for [T/t]he Gambia at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)" title="Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)">Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)</a>. __<a href="/wiki/User:Meco" title="User:Meco">meco</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Meco" title="User talk:Meco">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Meco-2010-12-10T02:39:00.000Z-Rsl12-2010-12-09T20:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:39, 10 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Meco-2010-12-10T02:39:00.000Z-Rsl12-2010-12-09T20:52:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Meco-2010-12-10T02:39:00.000Z-Rsl12-2010-12-09T20:52:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-11T11:52:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span>Wrap it up?</b> There is clearly no consensus to change from the country's official name. Can we bring this to a halt and restore the versions prior to the limited non-consultative discussion that led to the move? <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"><a href="/wiki/User:Jimfbleak" title="User:Jimfbleak"><span style="color:red;">Jimfbleak</span></a> - </b><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimfbleak" title="User talk:Jimfbleak"><span style="font-family:arial; color:green;"> talk to me?</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-11T11:52:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:52, 11 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-11T11:52:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-11T11:52:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zscout370-2010-12-11T18:23:00.000Z-Jimfbleak-2010-12-11T11:52:00.000Z"></span>It is dead even right now, so there is really no way to wrap it up without having a round four. <a href="/wiki/User:Zscout370" title="User:Zscout370">User:Zscout370</a> <small><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Zscout370" title="User talk:Zscout370">(Return Fire)</a></sup></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Zscout370-2010-12-11T18:23:00.000Z-Jimfbleak-2010-12-11T11:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:23, 11 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zscout370-2010-12-11T18:23:00.000Z-Jimfbleak-2010-12-11T11:52:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zscout370-2010-12-11T18:23:00.000Z-Jimfbleak-2010-12-11T11:52:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:What_is_consensus%3F#Not_a_majority_vote" title="Wikipedia:What is consensus?"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-16T14:15:00.000Z-Zscout370-2010-12-11T18:23:00.000Z"></span>Consensus is not a majority vote</a>. It is clear that there is no collective will to change from the country's official name to a Wikipedia version, nor is it likely that a consensus will arise in the foreseeable future, so what's the point in keeping this discussion going, especially as it's a dead certainty that it will be suggested for a fourth time next year <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"><a href="/wiki/User:Jimfbleak" title="User:Jimfbleak"><span style="color:red;">Jimfbleak</span></a> - </b><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimfbleak" title="User talk:Jimfbleak"><span style="font-family:arial; color:green;"> talk to me?</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-16T14:15:00.000Z-Zscout370-2010-12-11T18:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:15, 16 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-16T14:15:00.000Z-Zscout370-2010-12-11T18:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-16T14:15:00.000Z-Zscout370-2010-12-11T18:23:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></li></ul></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-12T15:21:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span>The Gambia</b> or 'Gambia'. I can see no justification whatever for 'the Gambia'. If 'The' is part of the name it should be capitalised, as is the case for any proper noun, if not then 'Gambia'. It is not like 'the United States' or 'the United Kingdom' where the words have an ordinary English meaning. Good Olfactory, if 'The Gambia' is the official name, it is not open to us to "down style" it. <a href="/wiki/User:Martin_Hogbin" title="User:Martin Hogbin">Martin Hogbin</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Martin_Hogbin" title="User talk:Martin Hogbin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-12T15:21:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:21, 12 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-12T15:21:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-12T15:21:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Good_Olfactory-2010-12-21T01:46:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-12T15:21:00.000Z"></span>That's not true. We "downsize" words that constitute parts of official names all of the time. Do you write "I went to The Bronx" or "I went to the Bronx"? Do you write "I went to The Bahamas" or "I went to the Bahamas"? "The" is part of the official name in both of these instances, but it's far more common to see the lowercase "the" used. <a href="/wiki/User:Good_Olfactory" title="User:Good Olfactory">Good Ol’factory</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Good_Olfactory" title="User talk:Good Olfactory">(talk)</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Good_Olfactory-2010-12-21T01:46:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-12T15:21:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:46, 21 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Good_Olfactory-2010-12-21T01:46:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-12T15:21:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Good_Olfactory-2010-12-21T01:46:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-12T15:21:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-21T09:30:00.000Z-Good_Olfactory-2010-12-21T01:46:00.000Z"></span>The official name of the Bahamas is 'Commonwealth of The Bahamas'. Putting 'the' in front of a singular name that has no other meaning in English is a very strong indication that it is the for a reason, unlike the case of plural names like 'Canaries', 'East Indies', where there is a natural tendency to add 'the'. <a href="/wiki/User:Martin_Hogbin" title="User:Martin Hogbin">Martin Hogbin</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Martin_Hogbin" title="User talk:Martin Hogbin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-21T09:30:00.000Z-Good_Olfactory-2010-12-21T01:46:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:30, 21 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-21T09:30:00.000Z-Good_Olfactory-2010-12-21T01:46:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-21T09:30:00.000Z-Good_Olfactory-2010-12-21T01:46:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Good_Olfactory-2010-12-21T09:34:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-21T09:30:00.000Z"></span>And yet almost all sources (including the majority of print encyclopedias I have checked) don't capitalize the "The" in "the Bahamas". They downsize the official name. So it must be OK for an encyclopedia to do. You've helped prove my point. <a href="/wiki/User:Good_Olfactory" title="User:Good Olfactory">Good Ol’factory</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Good_Olfactory" title="User talk:Good Olfactory">(talk)</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Good_Olfactory-2010-12-21T09:34:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-21T09:30:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:34, 21 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Good_Olfactory-2010-12-21T09:34:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-21T09:30:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Good_Olfactory-2010-12-21T09:34:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-21T09:30:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-21T23:31:00.000Z-Good_Olfactory-2010-12-21T09:34:00.000Z"></span>'The Bahamas' is not the official name thus 'the' is not capitalised, 'The Gambia' is the official name thus 'The' is capitalised. <a href="/wiki/User:Martin_Hogbin" title="User:Martin Hogbin">Martin Hogbin</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Martin_Hogbin" title="User talk:Martin Hogbin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-21T23:31:00.000Z-Good_Olfactory-2010-12-21T09:34:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:31, 21 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-21T23:31:00.000Z-Good_Olfactory-2010-12-21T09:34:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-21T23:31:00.000Z-Good_Olfactory-2010-12-21T09:34:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Good_Olfactory-2010-12-21T23:35:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-21T23:31:00.000Z"></span>If "The Bahamas" is the not the official name, then neither is "The Gambia". The full name is "Commonwealth of The Bahamas"—the government shortens it to "The Bahamas". The official name of the Gambia is the "Republic of The Gambia"—the government shortens it to "The Gambia". It's a nearly exact parallel situation, with the exception that the Bahamas uses "Commonwealth" rather than "Republic". <a href="/wiki/User:Good_Olfactory" title="User:Good Olfactory">Good Ol’factory</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Good_Olfactory" title="User talk:Good Olfactory">(talk)</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Good_Olfactory-2010-12-21T23:35:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-21T23:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:35, 21 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Good_Olfactory-2010-12-21T23:35:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-21T23:31:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Good_Olfactory-2010-12-21T23:35:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-21T23:31:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Lihaas-2010-12-29T18:23:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span>What is the <i>oficial</i> name. For such a dispute i think we can resort to that. It is my understanding that the official name probably doesnt have "the " in front of it and that is just a case fof the english language adding it for some circumstances (as in <i>the</i> <a href="/wiki/Punjab" title="Punjab">Punjab</a>). in that case the artilcle should have <i>the</i> gambia at all as it is refered to as "Gambia" in common parlance.</dd> <dd>The Netherlands' page doesnt have a "the". but then again a country like "republic of India" only takes out the republic. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Common_name" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Common name">WP:Common name</a> should clear this out(<a href="/wiki/User:Lihaas" title="User:Lihaas">Lihaas</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lihaas" title="User talk:Lihaas">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Lihaas-2010-12-29T18:23:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:23, 29 December 2010 (UTC)</a>).<span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Lihaas-2010-12-29T18:23:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Lihaas-2010-12-29T18:23:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zscout370-2010-12-29T20:42:00.000Z-Lihaas-2010-12-29T18:23:00.000Z"></span>The Constitution uses "The" when it describes the country. In the preabmle, the second paragraph starts with the following: "We the people of The Gambia have accomplished a great and historic task. We have had our say on how we should be governed. For this Constitution contains our will and resolve for good governance and a just, secure and prosperous society." <a href="/wiki/User:Zscout370" title="User:Zscout370">User:Zscout370</a> <small><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Zscout370" title="User talk:Zscout370">(Return Fire)</a></sup></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Zscout370-2010-12-29T20:42:00.000Z-Lihaas-2010-12-29T18:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:42, 29 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zscout370-2010-12-29T20:42:00.000Z-Lihaas-2010-12-29T18:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zscout370-2010-12-29T20:42:00.000Z-Lihaas-2010-12-29T18:23:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-30T07:20:00.000Z-Zscout370-2010-12-29T20:42:00.000Z"></span>Several people have already commented on the basis that Oxford knows better than Banjul. There's more than a whiff of "Europeans/Americans know better than Africans" about this whole discussion <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"><a href="/wiki/User:Jimfbleak" title="User:Jimfbleak"><span style="color:red;">Jimfbleak</span></a> - </b><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimfbleak" title="User talk:Jimfbleak"><span style="font-family:arial; color:green;"> talk to me?</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-30T07:20:00.000Z-Zscout370-2010-12-29T20:42:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:20, 30 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-30T07:20:00.000Z-Zscout370-2010-12-29T20:42:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-30T07:20:00.000Z-Zscout370-2010-12-29T20:42:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T11:18:00.000Z-Jimfbleak-2010-12-30T07:20:00.000Z"></span>I would put it this way: all countries should have the right to determine their own official name and style. All the evidence suggests that the country calls itself 'The Gambia'. That should be an end to it. <a href="/wiki/User:Martin_Hogbin" title="User:Martin Hogbin">Martin Hogbin</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Martin_Hogbin" title="User talk:Martin Hogbin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T11:18:00.000Z-Jimfbleak-2010-12-30T07:20:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:18, 30 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T11:18:00.000Z-Jimfbleak-2010-12-30T07:20:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T11:18:00.000Z-Jimfbleak-2010-12-30T07:20:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-30T20:25:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T11:18:00.000Z"></span>Except that your premise has no basis in our guidelines, and the evidence is actually quite unclear. --<a href="/wiki/User:Bsherr" title="User:Bsherr">Bsherr</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bsherr" title="User talk:Bsherr">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Bsherr-2010-12-30T20:25:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T11:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:25, 30 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-30T20:25:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T11:18:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bsherr-2010-12-30T20:25:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T11:18:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T20:45:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-30T20:25:00.000Z"></span>Which WP policy tells us that we should change the names of countries? Although there are exceptions, the clear preference in official Gambian sources seems to be for 'The Gambia'. <a href="/wiki/User:Martin_Hogbin" title="User:Martin Hogbin">Martin Hogbin</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Martin_Hogbin" title="User talk:Martin Hogbin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T20:45:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-30T20:25:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:45, 30 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T20:45:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-30T20:25:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T20:45:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-30T20:25:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TCNSV-2010-12-30T21:07:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T20:45:00.000Z"></span>Fine, "all countries should have the right to determine their own official name and style"; I don't disagree with you. But it must be <i>this</i> encyclopedia that chooses for <i>itself</i> what <i>its</i> article describing such a country should look like in the English language. <a href="/wiki/User:TeleComNasSprVen" title="User:TeleComNasSprVen"><font color="red">:| TelCo</font></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:TCNSV" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:TCNSV"><font color="green">NaSp</font></a><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:TCNSV/PMD&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:TCNSV/PMD (page does not exist)"><font face="Showcard Gothic" color="blue">Ve :|</font></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-TCNSV-2010-12-30T21:07:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T20:45:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:07, 30 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TCNSV-2010-12-30T21:07:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T20:45:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TCNSV-2010-12-30T21:07:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T20:45:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T23:18:00.000Z-TCNSV-2010-12-30T21:07:00.000Z"></span>Of course we decide on the name, that is what we are doing right now. The question is, on what basis should we do this? My answer, which is self-consistent and logical, is to call each country what it wishes to be called. Imposing our own personal or national preference on each country's name is a recipe for friction and argument. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/User:Martin_Hogbin" title="User:Martin Hogbin">Martin Hogbin</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Martin_Hogbin" title="User talk:Martin Hogbin">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Martin_Hogbin" title="Special:Contributions/Martin Hogbin">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T23:18:00.000Z-TCNSV-2010-12-30T21:07:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:18, 30 December 2010 (UTC)</a></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T23:18:00.000Z-TCNSV-2010-12-30T21:07:00.000Z"></span></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T23:18:00.000Z-TCNSV-2010-12-30T21:07:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-30T22:16:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T20:45:00.000Z"></span>No, no one has uncovered a source from the Gambian government speaking directly to the format of the name. The closest is perhaps the embassy website, but it's dubious to claim the webmaster of the embassy website, by virtue of how he or she formats the country name, was thoughtfully legislating the matter on behalf of the country. Contrast that to very reliabe sources, like dictionaries and gazetteers, which did intend to assure a format, and came to a different conclusion. Wikipedia obviously does not decide the name of a country, it merely comes to a determination of what is correct based on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources" title="Wikipedia:Reliable sources">WP:Reliable sources</a>. Dictionaries are more reliable than web sites. --<a href="/wiki/User:Bsherr" title="User:Bsherr">Bsherr</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bsherr" title="User talk:Bsherr">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Bsherr-2010-12-30T22:16:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T20:45:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:16, 30 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bsherr-2010-12-30T22:16:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T20:45:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bsherr-2010-12-30T22:16:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T20:45:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T23:18:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-30T22:16:00.000Z"></span>As it happens, my dictionary (Collins) has 'The Gambia' so there is no agreement amongst dictionaries. Government and official web sites are recognised as reliable sources and I would expect the government of most countries to show an interest and exercise control over how their country's name is shown on official web sites. <a href="/wiki/User:Martin_Hogbin" title="User:Martin Hogbin">Martin Hogbin</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Martin_Hogbin" title="User talk:Martin Hogbin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T23:18:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-30T22:16:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:18, 30 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T23:18:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-30T22:16:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T23:18:00.000Z-Bsherr-2010-12-30T22:16:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zscout370-2010-12-31T01:10:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T23:18:00.000Z"></span>"No, no one has uncovered a source from the Gambian government speaking directly to the format of the name. Uhh....what about their <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.gov.gm/judiciary/constitution.pdf">Constitution</a> as I pointed out? That is a government source and that usually discusses what name the country will go by (with long and short form in some cases). <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://www.gambia.gov.gm/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=63&Itemid=40">http://www.gambia.gov.gm/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=63&Itemid=40</a> uses The Gambia I am not sure what other government sources are needed, but I been beating down using the Constitution for a while now. <a href="/wiki/User:Zscout370" title="User:Zscout370">User:Zscout370</a> <small><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Zscout370" title="User talk:Zscout370">(Return Fire)</a></sup></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Zscout370-2010-12-31T01:10:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T23:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:10, 31 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zscout370-2010-12-31T01:10:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T23:18:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zscout370-2010-12-31T01:10:00.000Z-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-30T23:18:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-31T10:27:00.000Z-Zscout370-2010-12-31T01:10:00.000Z"></span>It is quite obvious to anyone who looks that the country styles itself as 'The Gambia'. It would be interesting and might be helpful to this discussion to know why. <a href="/wiki/User:Martin_Hogbin" title="User:Martin Hogbin">Martin Hogbin</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Martin_Hogbin" title="User talk:Martin Hogbin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-31T10:27:00.000Z-Zscout370-2010-12-31T01:10:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:27, 31 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-31T10:27:00.000Z-Zscout370-2010-12-31T01:10:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Martin_Hogbin-2010-12-31T10:27:00.000Z-Zscout370-2010-12-31T01:10:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-31T12:09:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span>Wrap it up? (2)</b> Sigh...after 27 days there is clearly no consensus (<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:What_is_consensus%3F#Not_a_majority_vote" title="Wikipedia:What is consensus?">Consensus is not a majority vote</a>) to change from the country's official name, nor is it likely that a consensus will arise in the foreseeable future. What's the point in keeping this discussion going, especially as it's a dead certainty that it will be suggested for a fourth time next year Can we bring this to a halt and restore the versions prior to the limited non-consultative discussion that led to the move? <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"><a href="/wiki/User:Jimfbleak" title="User:Jimfbleak"><span style="color:red;">Jimfbleak</span></a> - </b><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jimfbleak" title="User talk:Jimfbleak"><span style="font-family:arial; color:green;"> talk to me?</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-31T12:09:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:09, 31 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-31T12:09:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jimfbleak-2010-12-31T12:09:00.000Z-Jafeluv-2010-12-04T05:23:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-90.206.209.112-2011-03-31T13:17:00.000Z-RfC:_The_Gambia_or_the_Gambia"></span>The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: var(--color-error, red);">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div> </div><div style="clear:both;" class=""></div> <p>hi,can anyone help me find my sister jeanette tayler she went missing in the gambia about 5 yrs ago.she white english 56 yrs old. thank you <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/90.206.209.112" title="Special:Contributions/90.206.209.112">90.206.209.112</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:90.206.209.112&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:90.206.209.112 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1#c-90.206.209.112-2011-03-31T13:17:00.000Z-RfC:_The_Gambia_or_the_Gambia" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:17, 31 March 2011 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-90.206.209.112-2011-03-31T13:17:00.000Z-RfC:_The_Gambia_or_the_Gambia"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-90.206.209.112-2011-03-31T13:17:00.000Z-RfC:_The_Gambia_or_the_Gambia"></span> </p>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1&oldid=1090582842">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Gambia/Archive_1&oldid=1090582842</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks catlinks-allhidden" data-mw="interface"></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 30 May 2022, at 07:22<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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