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vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Oligarchy_vs_Democracy"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">2</span> <span>Oligarchy vs Democracy</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">10 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Oligarchy_vs_Democracy-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Senate_leader" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Senate_leader"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">3</span> <span>Senate leader</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Senate_leader-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-name" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#name"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">4</span> 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class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Extended_confirmed_protection_edit_request-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Musk_in_infobox?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Musk_in_infobox?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">7</span> <span>Musk in infobox?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">13 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Musk_in_infobox?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-RfC:_Is_Elon_Musk_a_principal_official_for_purposes_of_the_infobox?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#RfC:_Is_Elon_Musk_a_principal_official_for_purposes_of_the_infobox?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">8</span> <span>RfC: Is Elon Musk a principal official for purposes of the infobox?</span> 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class="vector-toc-numb">8.2</span> <span>Discussion</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Discussion-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-References" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#References"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">8.3</span> <span>References</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-References-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-First_paragraph_too_detailed" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#First_paragraph_too_detailed"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">9</span> <span>First paragraph too detailed</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">19 comments</span> <ul id="toc-First_paragraph_too_detailed-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-English_the_Official_language?" class="vector-toc-list-item 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view">Neutral point of view</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research" title="Wikipedia:No original research">No original research</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability" title="Wikipedia:Verifiability">Verifiability</a></li></ul> </div> </div> </div> </td> </tr><tr><td style="border-top: 1px solid #c0c090; padding: 1px 3px;"><span class="plainlinks"><i>Find sources:</i> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?as_eq=wikipedia&q=%22United+States%22">Google</a> (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks:1&q=%22United+States%22+-wikipedia">books</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?tbm=nws&q=%22United+States%22+-wikipedia&tbs=ar:1">news</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22United+States%22">scholar</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&tbs=sur:fmc&tbm=isch&q=%22United+States%22+-site:wikipedia.org+-site:wikimedia.org">free images</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&cx=007734830908295939403%3Agalkqgoksq0&cof=FORID%3A13%3BAH%3Aleft%3BCX%3AWikipedia%2520Reference%2520Search&q=%22United+States%22">WP refs</a>) <b>·</b> <span title="Free English newspaper sources" style="border-bottom: 1px dotted;"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Free_English_newspaper_sources">FENS</a></span> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=%22United+States%22&acc=on&wc=on">JSTOR</a> <b>·</b> <span title="The Wikipedia Library" style="border-bottom: 1px dotted;"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://wikipedialibrary.wmflabs.org/search/?q=%22United+States%22">TWL</a></span></span></td></tr><tr><td style="border-top: 1px solid #c0c090; padding: 1px 3px;"><b><a href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page" title="Help:Archiving a talk page">Archives</a>:</b> <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_index" title="Talk:United States/Archive index">Index</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_1" title="Talk:United States/Archive 1">1</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_2" title="Talk:United States/Archive 2">2</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_3" title="Talk:United States/Archive 3">3</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_4" title="Talk:United States/Archive 4">4</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_5" title="Talk:United States/Archive 5">5</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_6" title="Talk:United States/Archive 6">6</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_7" title="Talk:United States/Archive 7">7</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_8" title="Talk:United States/Archive 8">8</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_9" title="Talk:United States/Archive 9">9</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_10" title="Talk:United States/Archive 10">10</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_11" title="Talk:United States/Archive 11">11</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_12" title="Talk:United States/Archive 12">12</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_13" title="Talk:United States/Archive 13">13</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_14" title="Talk:United States/Archive 14">14</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_15" title="Talk:United States/Archive 15">15</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_16" title="Talk:United States/Archive 16">16</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_17" title="Talk:United States/Archive 17">17</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_18" title="Talk:United States/Archive 18">18</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_19" title="Talk:United States/Archive 19">19</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_20" title="Talk:United States/Archive 20">20</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_21" title="Talk:United States/Archive 21">21</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_22" title="Talk:United States/Archive 22">22</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_23" title="Talk:United States/Archive 23">23</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_24" title="Talk:United States/Archive 24">24</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_25" title="Talk:United States/Archive 25">25</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_26" title="Talk:United States/Archive 26">26</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_27" title="Talk:United States/Archive 27">27</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_28" title="Talk:United States/Archive 28">28</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_29" title="Talk:United States/Archive 29">29</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_30" title="Talk:United States/Archive 30">30</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_31" title="Talk:United States/Archive 31">31</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_32" title="Talk:United States/Archive 32">32</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_33" title="Talk:United States/Archive 33">33</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_34" title="Talk:United States/Archive 34">34</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_35" title="Talk:United States/Archive 35">35</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_36" title="Talk:United States/Archive 36">36</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_37" title="Talk:United States/Archive 37">37</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_38" title="Talk:United States/Archive 38">38</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_39" title="Talk:United States/Archive 39">39</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_40" title="Talk:United States/Archive 40">40</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_41" title="Talk:United States/Archive 41">41</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_42" title="Talk:United States/Archive 42">42</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_43" title="Talk:United States/Archive 43">43</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_44" title="Talk:United States/Archive 44">44</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_45" title="Talk:United States/Archive 45">45</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_46" title="Talk:United States/Archive 46">46</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_47" title="Talk:United States/Archive 47">47</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_48" title="Talk:United States/Archive 48">48</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_49" title="Talk:United States/Archive 49">49</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_50" title="Talk:United States/Archive 50">50</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_51" title="Talk:United States/Archive 51">51</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_52" title="Talk:United States/Archive 52">52</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_53" title="Talk:United States/Archive 53">53</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_54" title="Talk:United States/Archive 54">54</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_55" title="Talk:United States/Archive 55">55</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_56" title="Talk:United States/Archive 56">56</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_57" title="Talk:United States/Archive 57">57</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_58" title="Talk:United States/Archive 58">58</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_59" title="Talk:United States/Archive 59">59</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_60" title="Talk:United States/Archive 60">60</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_61" title="Talk:United States/Archive 61">61</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_62" title="Talk:United States/Archive 62">62</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_63" title="Talk:United States/Archive 63">63</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_64" title="Talk:United States/Archive 64">64</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_65" title="Talk:United States/Archive 65">65</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_66" title="Talk:United States/Archive 66">66</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_67" title="Talk:United States/Archive 67">67</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_68" title="Talk:United States/Archive 68">68</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_69" title="Talk:United States/Archive 69">69</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_70" title="Talk:United States/Archive 70">70</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_71" title="Talk:United States/Archive 71">71</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_72" title="Talk:United States/Archive 72">72</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_73" title="Talk:United States/Archive 73">73</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_74" title="Talk:United States/Archive 74">74</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_75" title="Talk:United States/Archive 75">75</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_76" title="Talk:United States/Archive 76">76</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_77" title="Talk:United States/Archive 77">77</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_78" title="Talk:United States/Archive 78">78</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_79" title="Talk:United States/Archive 79">79</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_80" title="Talk:United States/Archive 80">80</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_81" title="Talk:United States/Archive 81">81</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_82" title="Talk:United States/Archive 82">82</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_83" title="Talk:United States/Archive 83">83</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_84" title="Talk:United States/Archive 84">84</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_85" title="Talk:United States/Archive 85">85</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_86" title="Talk:United States/Archive 86">86</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_87" title="Talk:United States/Archive 87">87</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_88" title="Talk:United States/Archive 88">88</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_89" title="Talk:United States/Archive 89">89</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_90" title="Talk:United States/Archive 90">90</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_91" title="Talk:United States/Archive 91">91</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_92" title="Talk:United States/Archive 92">92</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_93" title="Talk:United States/Archive 93">93</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_94" title="Talk:United States/Archive 94">94</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_95" title="Talk:United States/Archive 95">95</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_96" title="Talk:United States/Archive 96">96</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_97" title="Talk:United States/Archive 97">97</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_98" title="Talk:United States/Archive 98">98</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_99" title="Talk:United States/Archive 99">99</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_100" title="Talk:United States/Archive 100">100</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_101" title="Talk:United States/Archive 101">101</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_102" title="Talk:United States/Archive 102">102</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_103" title="Talk:United States/Archive 103">103</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_104" title="Talk:United States/Archive 104">104</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_105" title="Talk:United States/Archive 105">105</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_106" title="Talk:United States/Archive 106">106</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_107" title="Talk:United States/Archive 107">107</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_108" title="Talk:United States/Archive 108">108</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_109" title="Talk:United States/Archive 109">109</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_110" title="Talk:United States/Archive 110">110</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_111" title="Talk:United States/Archive 111">111</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_112" title="Talk:United States/Archive 112">112</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_113" title="Talk:United States/Archive 113">113</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_114" title="Talk:United States/Archive 114">114</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_115" title="Talk:United States/Archive 115">115</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_116" title="Talk:United States/Archive 116">116</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Archive_117" title="Talk:United States/Archive 117">117</a><span style="position: relative; top: 2px; float: right; font-size: 90%; margin-left: 1em;"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1038841319">.mw-parser-output .tooltip-dotted{border-bottom:1px dotted;cursor:help}</style><span class="rt-commentedText tooltip tooltip-dotted" title="Discussions with timestamps are automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III after 30 days of inactivity when more than 2 threads are present.">Auto-archiving period</span>: <b>30 days</b> <span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page#Automated_archiving" title="Help:Archiving a talk page"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/16px-Information_icon4.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/24px-Information_icon4.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/32px-Information_icon4.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="620" data-file-height="620" /></a></span></span></td> </tr><tr><td style="border-top: 1px solid #c0c090; padding: 0;"><div> <div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style=""><form name="searchbox" class="searchbox mw-inputbox-form-inline" action="/wiki/Special:Search"><div class="cdx-text-input"><input class="mw-searchInput searchboxInput cdx-text-input__input" name="search" placeholder="" size="50" dir="ltr" /></div><input type="hidden" value="Talk:United States/" name="prefix" /> <input type="submit" name="fulltext" value="Search archives" class="cdx-button" /><input type="hidden" value="Search" name="fulltext" /></form></div> </div></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475" /><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td><td class="mbox-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1214851843">.mw-parser-output .hidden-begin{box-sizing:border-box;width:100%;padding:5px;border:none;font-size:95%}.mw-parser-output .hidden-title{font-weight:bold;line-height:1.6;text-align:left}.mw-parser-output .hidden-content{text-align:left}@media all and (max-width:500px){.mw-parser-output .hidden-begin{width:auto!important;clear:none!important;float:none!important}}</style><div class="hidden-begin mw-collapsible" style="font-size: 105%"><div class="hidden-title skin-nightmode-reset-color" style="text-align: center"><span class="anchor" id="FAQ"></span><div style="float:left;"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:United_States/FAQ&action=edit&preload=Template:FAQ/Preload" title="?"><img alt="?" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Symbol_question_vote.svg/24px-Symbol_question_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="24" height="23" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Symbol_question_vote.svg/36px-Symbol_question_vote.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Symbol_question_vote.svg/48px-Symbol_question_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="185" data-file-height="180" /></a></span> <small> <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/FAQ" title="Talk:United States/FAQ">view</a> <b>·</b> <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:United_States/FAQ&action=edit&preload=Template:FAQ/Preload">edit</a></small></div> Frequently asked questions</div><div class="hidden-content mw-collapsible-content" style=""> <div class="faqrow mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r902545367">.mw-parser-output .faqrow{padding:2px 0;font-size:95%}.mw-parser-output .faqrow-title{padding:2px 35px 2px 2px;line-height:1.6em;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .faqrow-body{margin:2px 0 2px 15px;padding:2px}</style> <div class="faqrow-title"> Q1. How did the article get the way it is?</div> <div class="faqrow-body mw-collapsible-content"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475" /> <table id="archivebox" role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice" style="text-align: center; padding: 1em; min-width:80%;"> <tbody><tr> <td rowspan="3" class="mbox-image" style="width:52px;"> <p><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Archiving icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/40px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/60px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/80px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="200" data-file-height="200" /></a></span> </p> </td> <td class="plainlinks mbox-text"> Archives: </td></tr><tr><td class="plainlinks" style="padding:0px 10px;"> <p><a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Name" title="Talk:United States/Name">Article Name</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Introduction" title="Talk:United States/Introduction">Article Introduction</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Human_Rights" title="Talk:United States/Human Rights">Human Rights</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Culture" title="Talk:United States/Culture">Culture</a> </p> </td> </tr><tr><td style="padding-bottom:11px"><div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style=""><form name="searchbox" class="searchbox mw-inputbox-form-inline" action="/wiki/Special:Search"><div class="cdx-text-input"><input class="mw-searchInput searchboxInput cdx-text-input__input" name="search" placeholder="" size="50" dir="ltr" /></div><input type="hidden" value="Talk:United States/" name="prefix" /> <input type="submit" name="fulltext" value="Search archives" class="cdx-button" /><input type="hidden" value="Search" name="fulltext" /></form></div> </td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" style="padding:0px 10px; font-size:11.9px; text-align:center;"> <hr /> This page has archives. Sections older than <b>30 days</b> may be automatically archived by <span class="nowraplinks"><a href="/wiki/User:Lowercase_sigmabot_III" title="User:Lowercase sigmabot III">Lowercase sigmabot III</a></span> when more than 2 sections are present.</td></tr> </tbody></table>Detailed discussions which led to the current consensus can be found in the archives of <a class="mw-selflink selflink">Talk:United States</a>. Several topical talk archives are identified in the infobox to the right. A complete list of talk archives can be found at the top of the <a class="mw-selflink selflink">Talk:United States</a> page.<div style="clear:both;" class=""></div></div></div> <div class="faqrow mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r902545367" /> <div class="faqrow-title"> Q2. Why is the article's name "United States" and not "United States of America"?</div> <div class="faqrow-body mw-collapsible-content"><b>Isn't United States of America the official name of the U.S.? I would think that <a href="/wiki/United_States" title="United States">United States</a> should redirect to <a href="/wiki/United_States_of_America" class="mw-redirect" title="United States of America">United States of America</a>, not vice versa as is the current case.</b> <dl><dd>This has been discussed many times. Please review the summary points below and the discussion archived at the <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Name" title="Talk:United States/Name">Talk:United States/Name</a> page. The <a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/Name#Vote_-_Should_this_article_be_moved_to_United_States_of_America.3F" title="Talk:United States/Name">most major discussion</a> showed a lack of consensus to either change the name or leave it as the same, so the name was kept as "United States".</dd></dl> <dl><dd>If, after reading the following summary points and all the discussion, you wish to ask a question or contribute your opinion to the discussion, then please do so at <a class="mw-selflink selflink">Talk:United States</a>. The only way that we can be sure of ongoing <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Consensus" title="Wikipedia:Consensus">consensus</a> is if people contribute.</dd></dl> <dl><dd><i><b>Reasons and counterpoints for the article title of "United States":</b></i></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><ul><li>"United States" is in compliance with the Wikipedia "<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NC(CN)" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NC(CN)">Naming conventions (common names)</a>" guideline portion of the Wikipedia <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NAME" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NAME">naming conventions</a> policy. The guideline expresses a preference for the most commonly used name, and "United States" is the most commonly used name for the country in television programs (particularly news), newspapers, magazines, books, and legal documents, including the <a href="/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_States" title="Constitution of the United States">Constitution of the United States</a>. <ul><li><i>Exceptions to guidelines are allowed.</i></li></ul></li></ul></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><ul><li>If we used "United States of America", then to be consistent we would have to rename all similar articles. For example, by renaming "<a href="/wiki/United_Kingdom" title="United Kingdom">United Kingdom</a>" to "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" or <a href="/wiki/Mexico" title="Mexico">Mexico</a> to "United Mexican States". <ul><li><i>Exceptions to guidelines are allowed. Articles are independent from one another. No rule says articles have to copy each other.</i></li> <li><i>This argument would be valid only if "United States of America" was a particularly uncommon name for the country.</i></li></ul></li></ul></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><ul><li>Well-established <a href="/wiki/Encyclopedia" title="Encyclopedia">encyclopedias</a> in the <a href="/wiki/English_language" title="English language">English language</a> appear to generally use a "common name" policy for article titles. More specifically, the following use "United States" for the title of the corresponding article: <a href="/wiki/MSN_Encarta" class="mw-redirect" title="MSN Encarta">MSN Encarta</a>, <a href="/wiki/World_Book" class="mw-redirect" title="World Book">World Book</a>, <a href="/wiki/Encyclopedia_Americana" title="Encyclopedia Americana">Encyclopedia Americana</a>, <a href="/wiki/Columbia_Encyclopedia" title="Columbia Encyclopedia">Columbia</a>, <a href="/wiki/Grolier_Multimedia_Encyclopedia" class="mw-redirect" title="Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia">Grolier</a>, and the Micropaedia and online versions of the <a href="/wiki/Encyclopaedia_Britannica" class="mw-redirect" title="Encyclopaedia Britannica">Encyclopaedia Britannica</a>. In our effort to make Wikipedia an "encyclopedia of the highest possible quality," (<a href="/wiki/Jimmy_Wales" title="Jimmy Wales">Jimmy Wales</a>, "<a class="external text" href="https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2005-March/020469.html">Wikipedia is an encyclopedia</a>", <a href="/wiki/March_8" title="March 8">March 8</a>, <a href="/wiki/2005" title="2005">2005</a>, <wikipedia-l@wikimedia.org>) we would do well to emulate what these well-established encyclopedias do. <ul><li><i>The Macropaedia version of Britannica uses "United States of America" for its article title.</i></li></ul></li></ul></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><ul><li>With the reliability, legitimacy, and reputation of all <a href="/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation" title="Wikimedia Foundation">Wikimedia Foundation</a> projects under constant attack, Wikipedia should not hand a weapon to its critics by deviating from the "common name" policy traditionally used by encyclopedias in the English-speaking world. <ul><li><i>Wikipedia is supposed to be more than just another encyclopedia.</i></li></ul></li></ul></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><i><b>Reasons and counterpoints for the article title of "United States of America":</b></i></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><ul><li>It is the country's official name. <ul><li><i>The country's name is not explicitly defined as such in the <a href="/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_States" title="Constitution of the United States">Constitution</a> or in the <a href="/wiki/Law_of_the_United_States" title="Law of the United States">law</a>. The words "</i>United States of America<i>" only appear three times in the Constitution. "</i>United States<i>" appears 51 times by itself, including in the <a href="/wiki/Oath_of_office#United_States" title="Oath of office">presidential oath or affirmation</a>. The phrase "of America" is arguably just a <a href="/wiki/Prepositional_phrase" class="mw-redirect" title="Prepositional phrase">prepositional phrase</a> that describes the location of the United States and is not actually part of the country's name.</i></li></ul></li></ul> <dl><dd><ul><li>The <a href="/wiki/Articles_of_Confederation" title="Articles of Confederation">Articles of Confederation</a> explicitly name the country "The United States of America" in <a href="https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Articles_of_Confederation_and_Perpetual_Union#Article_1" class="extiw" title="s:Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union">article one</a>. While this is no longer binding law, the articles provide clear intent of the founders of the nation to use the name "The United States of America."</li></ul></dd></dl> <ul><li>The <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(common_names)" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)">whole purpose of the common naming convention</a> is to ease access to the articles through search engines. For this purpose the article name "United States of America" is advantageous over "United States" because it contains the strings "United States of America" and "United States." In this regard, "The United States of America" would be even better as it contains the strings "United States," The United States," "United States of America," and "The United States of America." <ul><li><i>The purpose of containing more strings is to increase exposure to Wikipedia articles by increasing search rank for more terms. Although "The United States of America" would give you four times more commonly used terms for the United States, the United States article on Wikipedia is already the first result in queries for <a href="//www.google.com/search?q=United-States-of-America" class="extiw" title="google:United-States-of-America">United States of America</a>, <a href="//www.google.com/search?q=The-United-States-of-America" class="extiw" title="google:The-United-States-of-America">The United States of America</a>, <a href="//www.google.com/search?q=The-United-States" class="extiw" title="google:The-United-States">The United States</a>, and of course <a href="//www.google.com/search?q=United-States" class="extiw" title="google:United-States">United States</a>.</i></li></ul></li></ul></dd></dl></dd></dl></div></div> <div class="faqrow mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r902545367" /> <div class="faqrow-title"> Q3. Is the United States really the oldest constitutional republic in the world?</div> <div class="faqrow-body mw-collapsible-content">1. Isn't <a href="/wiki/San_Marino" title="San Marino">San Marino</a> older? <dl><dd>Yes. San Marino was founded before the United States and did adopt its basic law on 8 October 1600. (<a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sm.html">https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sm.html</a>) Full democracy was attained there with various new electoral laws in the 20th century which augmented rather than amended the existing constitution.</dd></dl> <p>2. How about <a href="/wiki/Switzerland" title="Switzerland">Switzerland</a>? </p> <dl><dd>Yes, but not continuously. The first "constitution" within Switzerland is believed to be the <a href="/wiki/Federal_Charter_of_1291" title="Federal Charter of 1291">Federal Charter of 1291</a> and most of modern Switzerland was republican by 1600. After <a href="/wiki/Napoleon" title="Napoleon">Napoleon</a> and a later civil war, the current constitution was adopted in 1848.</dd></dl> <p>Many people in the United States are told it is the oldest republic and has the oldest constitution, however one must use a narrow definition of constitution. Within Wikipedia articles it may be appropriate to add a modifier such as "oldest continuous, federal ..." however it is more useful to explain the strength and influence of the US constitution and political system both domestically and globally. One must also be careful using the word "democratic" due to the limited franchise in early US history and better explain the pioneering expansion of the democratic system and subsequent influence. </p> <dl><dd>The component states of the Swiss confederation were mostly oligarchies in the eighteenth century, however, being much more oligarchical than most of the United States, with the exceptions of Rhode Island, South Carolina, and Connecticut.</dd></dl></div></div> <div class="faqrow mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r902545367" /> <div class="faqrow-title"> Q4. Why are the Speaker of the House and Chief Justice listed as leaders in the infobox? Shouldn't it just be the President and Vice President?</div> <div class="faqrow-body mw-collapsible-content">The President, Vice President, Speaker of The House of Representatives, and Chief Justice are stated within the United States Constitution as leaders of their respective branches of government. As the three branches of government are equal, all four leaders get mentioned under the "Government" heading in the infobox.</div></div> <div class="faqrow mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r902545367" /> <div class="faqrow-title"> Q5. What is the motto of the United States?</div> <div class="faqrow-body mw-collapsible-content">There was no <i>de jure</i> motto of the United States until 1956, when "In God We Trust" was made such. Various other unofficial mottos existed before that, most notably "E Pluribus Unum". The debate continues on what "E Pluribus Unum"'s current status is (<i>de facto</i> motto, traditional motto, etc.) but it has been determined that it never was an official motto of the United States.</div></div> <div class="faqrow mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r902545367" /> <div class="faqrow-title"> Q6. Is the U.S. really the world's largest economy?</div> <div class="faqrow-body mw-collapsible-content">The United States was the world's largest national economy from <a href="/wiki/Gilded_Age" title="Gilded Age">about 1880</a> and largest by nominal GDP from about 2014, when it surpassed the <a href="/wiki/European_Union" title="European Union">European Union</a>. China has been <a href="/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)" title="List of countries by GDP (PPP)">larger by Purchasing Power Parity</a>, <a href="/wiki/List_of_countries_by_past_and_projected_GDP_(PPP)#IMF_estimates_between_2010_and_2019" title="List of countries by past and projected GDP (PPP)">since about 2016</a>.</div></div> <div class="faqrow mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r902545367" /> <div class="faqrow-title"> Q7. Isn't it incorrect to refer to it as "America" or its people as "American"?</div> <div class="faqrow-body mw-collapsible-content">In English, <i>America</i> (when not preceded by "North", "Central", or "South") almost always refers to the United States. The large super-continent is called the <i>Americas</i>.</div></div> <div class="faqrow mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r902545367" /> <div class="faqrow-title"> Q8. Why isn't the treatment of <a href="/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United_States" title="Native Americans in the United States">Native Americans</a> given more weight?</div> <div class="faqrow-body mw-collapsible-content">The article is written in <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SUMMARY" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SUMMARY">summary style</a> and the <a href="/wiki/United_States#Indigenous_peoples" title="United States">sections "Indigenous peoples" and "European colonization"</a> summarize the situation.</div></div> </div></div></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475" /><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Commons-emblem-issue.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Commons-emblem-issue.svg/40px-Commons-emblem-issue.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Commons-emblem-issue.svg/60px-Commons-emblem-issue.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Commons-emblem-issue.svg/80px-Commons-emblem-issue.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48" /></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><b>The <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Contentious_topics" title="Wikipedia:Contentious topics">contentious topics</a> procedure applies to this page. This page is related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, which has been <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American_politics_2" title="Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2">designated</a> as a contentious topic.</b><p>Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Five_pillars" title="Wikipedia:Five pillars">purpose of Wikipedia</a>, any expected <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Etiquette" title="Wikipedia:Etiquette">standards of behaviour</a>, or any <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_policies" title="Wikipedia:List of policies">normal editorial process</a> may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Contentious_topics" title="Wikipedia:Contentious topics">contentious topics procedures</a> before editing this page.</p></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475" /><table id="ame" class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-style" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_United_States.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/50px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="26" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/75px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/100px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1235" data-file-height="650" /></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article is <b>written in <a href="/wiki/American_English" title="American English">American English</a></b>, which has its own spelling conventions (<i>color</i>, <i>defense</i>, <i>traveled</i>) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other <a href="/wiki/List_of_dialects_of_English" title="List of dialects of English">varieties of English</a>. According to the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#National_varieties_of_English" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">relevant style guide</a>, this should not be changed without <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Consensus#Levels_of_consensus" title="Wikipedia:Consensus">broad consensus</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475" /><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1135653291">@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .article-history{min-width:80%}}</style><table class="article-history tmbox tmbox-notice"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Symbol_unsupport_vote.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="Former good article"><img alt="Former good article" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f6/Symbol_unsupport_vote.svg/50px-Symbol_unsupport_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f6/Symbol_unsupport_vote.svg/75px-Symbol_unsupport_vote.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f6/Symbol_unsupport_vote.svg/100px-Symbol_unsupport_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="200" data-file-height="200" /></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><b>United States</b> was one of the <i><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Good_articles/Geography_and_places" title="Wikipedia:Good articles/Geography and places">Geography and places good articles</a></b></i>, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Good_article_criteria" title="Wikipedia:Good article criteria">good article criteria</a>. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Good_article_nominations" title="Wikipedia:Good article nominations">renominated</a>. Editors may also seek a <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Good_article_reassessment" title="Wikipedia:Good article reassessment">reassessment</a></b> of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" style="width:100%"><table class="article-history-milestones mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="width:100%;font-size:90%"><tbody><tr><th colspan="3" style="font-size:110%"><span style="float:left"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Symbol_question.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="Did You Know"><img alt="Did You Know" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Symbol_question.svg/15px-Symbol_question.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Symbol_question.svg/23px-Symbol_question.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Symbol_question.svg/30px-Symbol_question.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185" /></a></span><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola_apps_date.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="On this day..."><img alt="On this day..." src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Nuvola_apps_date.svg/20px-Nuvola_apps_date.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Nuvola_apps_date.svg/30px-Nuvola_apps_date.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Nuvola_apps_date.svg/40px-Nuvola_apps_date.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128" /></a></span></span> Article milestones</th></tr><tr style="text-align:left"><th>Date</th><th>Process</th><th>Result</th></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States&oldid=31414825">December 15, 2005</a></span></td><td><b><a class="mw-selflink selflink">Good article nominee</a></b></td><td>Listed</td></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States&oldid=51892109">May 7, 2006</a></span></td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/United_States/archive1" title="Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/United States/archive1">Featured article candidate</a></b></td><td>Not promoted</td></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States&oldid=52202348">May 8, 2006</a></span></td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/United_States/archive2" title="Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/United States/archive2">Featured article candidate</a></b></td><td>Not promoted</td></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States&oldid=53888193">May 18, 2006</a></span></td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Peer_review/United_States/archive1" title="Wikipedia:Peer review/United States/archive1">Peer review</a></b></td><td>Reviewed</td></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States&oldid=61900268">July 3, 2006</a></span></td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/United_States/archive3" title="Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/United States/archive3">Featured article candidate</a></b></td><td>Not promoted</td></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States&oldid=76974796">September 21, 2006</a></span></td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Peer_review/United_States/archive2" title="Wikipedia:Peer review/United States/archive2">Peer review</a></b></td><td>Reviewed</td></tr><tr><td>October 19, 2006</td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/United_States/archive4" title="Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/United States/archive4">Featured article candidate</a></b></td><td>Not promoted</td></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States&oldid=139239542">June 19, 2007</a></span></td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/United_States/archive5" title="Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/United States/archive5">Featured article candidate</a></b></td><td>Not promoted</td></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States&oldid=224506293">July 9, 2008</a></span></td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Good_article_reassessment/United_States/1" title="Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/United States/1">Good article reassessment</a></b></td><td>Kept</td></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States&oldid=298963267">June 27, 2009</a></span></td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/United_States/archive6" title="Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/United States/archive6">Featured article candidate</a></b></td><td>Not promoted</td></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States&oldid=311950730">September 6, 2009</a></span></td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Peer_review/United_States/archive3" title="Wikipedia:Peer review/United States/archive3">Peer review</a></b></td><td>Reviewed</td></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States&oldid=408843044">January 19, 2011</a></span></td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Peer_review/United_States/archive4" title="Wikipedia:Peer review/United States/archive4">Peer review</a></b></td><td>Reviewed</td></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States&oldid=482121399">March 18, 2012</a></span></td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Good_article_reassessment/United_States/2" title="Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/United States/2">Good article reassessment</a></b></td><td>Delisted</td></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States&oldid=506806669">August 10, 2012</a></span></td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/GA1" title="Talk:United States/GA1">Good article nominee</a></b></td><td>Not listed</td></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States&oldid=506806669">January 21, 2015</a></span></td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Talk:United_States/GA2" title="Talk:United States/GA2">Good article nominee</a></b></td><td>Listed</td></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States&oldid=974086316">February 22, 2020</a></span></td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Good_article_reassessment/United_States/3" title="Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/United States/3">Good article reassessment</a></b></td><td>Delisted</td></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States&oldid=995167082">December 19, 2020</a></span></td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Peer_review/United_States/archive5" title="Wikipedia:Peer review/United States/archive5">Peer review</a></b></td><td>Reviewed</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3" style="width:100%"><div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"><div><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Symbol_question.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="Did You Know"><img alt="Did You Know" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Symbol_question.svg/20px-Symbol_question.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="21" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Symbol_question.svg/30px-Symbol_question.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Symbol_question.svg/40px-Symbol_question.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185" /></a></span> A <a href="/wiki/Template:Did_you_know_nominations/United_States" title="Template:Did you know nominations/United States">fact from this article</a> appeared on Wikipedia's <a href="/wiki/Main_Page" title="Main Page">Main Page</a> in the <i>"<a href="/wiki/Template:Did_you_know" title="Template:Did you know">Did you know?</a>"</i> column on <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Recent_additions/2015/February#3_February_2015" title="Wikipedia:Recent additions/2015/February">February 3, 2015</a></b>.</div><div class="mw-collapsible-content" style="border:1px silver solid">The text of the entry was: <i>Did you know ... that the <b><a href="/wiki/United_States" title="United States">United States</a></b> accounts for 37% of all <a href="/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures" class="mw-redirect" title="List of countries by military expenditures">global military spending</a>?</i></div></div></td></tr><tr><td colspan="3" style="width:100%"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola_apps_date.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="On this day..."><img alt="On this day..." src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Nuvola_apps_date.svg/20px-Nuvola_apps_date.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Nuvola_apps_date.svg/30px-Nuvola_apps_date.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Nuvola_apps_date.svg/40px-Nuvola_apps_date.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128" /></a></span> A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's <a href="/wiki/Main_Page" title="Main Page">Main Page</a> in the <i>"<a 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href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_United_States/Collaboration" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject United States/Collaboration">U.S. Collaboration of the Month</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475" /><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259570071" /><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:WikiProject_North_America.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/WikiProject_North_America.svg/29px-WikiProject_North_America.svg.png" decoding="async" width="29" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/WikiProject_North_America.svg/44px-WikiProject_North_America.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/WikiProject_North_America.svg/58px-WikiProject_North_America.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="500" data-file-height="430" /></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_North_America" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject North America">North America</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-top">Top‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:WikiProject_North_America.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/WikiProject_North_America.svg/80px-WikiProject_North_America.svg.png" decoding="async" width="80" height="69" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/WikiProject_North_America.svg/120px-WikiProject_North_America.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/WikiProject_North_America.svg/160px-WikiProject_North_America.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="500" data-file-height="430" /></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1266661725" /><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="map" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/North_America_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg/28px-North_America_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg.png" decoding="async" width="28" height="28" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/North_America_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg/42px-North_America_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/North_America_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg/56px-North_America_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="550" data-file-height="550" /></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:North_America" title="Portal:North America">North America portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_North_America" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject North America">WikiProject North America</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/North_America" title="North America">North America</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_North_America" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject North America">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">North America</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject North America</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject North America</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">North America</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-top"><a href="/wiki/Category:Top-importance_North_America_articles" title="Category:Top-importance North America articles">Top</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Top-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Version_1.0_Editorial_Team/Release_Version_Criteria#Importance_of_topic" title="Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Release Version Criteria">importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475" /><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259570071" /><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:BlankMap-World.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/BlankMap-World.svg/35px-BlankMap-World.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="18" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/BlankMap-World.svg/53px-BlankMap-World.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/BlankMap-World.svg/70px-BlankMap-World.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="2754" data-file-height="1398" /></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countries" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries">Countries</a> </td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:BlankMap-World.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/BlankMap-World.svg/100px-BlankMap-World.svg.png" decoding="async" width="100" height="51" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/BlankMap-World.svg/150px-BlankMap-World.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/BlankMap-World.svg/200px-BlankMap-World.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="2754" data-file-height="1398" /></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1266661725" /><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:P_countries-vector.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/P_countries-vector.svg/31px-P_countries-vector.svg.png" decoding="async" width="31" height="28" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/P_countries-vector.svg/47px-P_countries-vector.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/P_countries-vector.svg/62px-P_countries-vector.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="400" data-file-height="360" /></a></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Countries" title="Portal:Countries">Countries portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countries" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries">WikiProject Countries</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/Country" title="Country">countries</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Countries" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Countries</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Countries</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">country</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td colspan="3" style="padding:0"><table class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="background:transparent;width:100%"><tbody><tr><th style="text-align:left;padding:0.2em 2px 0.2em 0">WikiProject Countries to-do list:</th></tr><tr><td style="text-align:left;padding:5px;background-color:white;border:1px solid #c0c090;margin-top:5px"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1129693374" /><div class="hlist plainlinks" style="text-align:center;font-size:90%;"><ul><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Countries%2Fto_do&action=edit">edit</a></li><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Countries%2Fto_do&action=history">history</a></li><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Countries%2Fto_do&action=watch">watch</a></li><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Countries%2Fto_do&action=purge">purge</a></li></ul> </div> <table style="background:none;color:inherit;width:auto;"> <tbody><tr> <td style="vertical-align:top;"> <span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg/50px-Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg/75px-Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg/100px-Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128" /></a></span><br /><div style="width: 55px; height: 0px;"></div> </td> <td> <div style="position: relative; left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; z-index: 15;">Here are some tasks awaiting attention: <ul style="font-size: 100%; margin: 0px; padding: 0.3em 0px 0.3em 25px;"> <li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_articles" title="Wikipedia:Requested articles">Article requests</a></i> :</b> Check out the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countries/Article_alerts" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries/Article alerts">article alerts</a>; see if anything catches your fancy.</li><li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Cleanup" title="Wikipedia:Cleanup">Cleanup</a></i> :</b> <span class="plainlinks" style="border-radius: 7px; font-size: 0.9em; padding: 4px 12px; width: 25em; background-color: #EEE"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://bambots.brucemyers.com/cwb/bycat/Countries.html">clean-up listing for Countries</a><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/User:CleanupWorklistBot" title="the tool's wiki page"><img alt="the tool's wiki page" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f2/Edit-clear.svg/20px-Edit-clear.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f2/Edit-clear.svg/30px-Edit-clear.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f2/Edit-clear.svg/40px-Edit-clear.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48" /></a></span></span></li><li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Stub" title="Wikipedia:Stub">Stubs</a></i> :</b> de-stub articles in <a href="/wiki/Category:Stubs_by_region" title="Category:Stubs by region">Category:Stubs by region</a>.</li><li><b><i>Other</i> :</b> add <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:WPCountries" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:WPCountries">WPCountries</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> to <i>talk</i> pages of related articles, and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countries/Assessment" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries/Assessment">assess</a>.</li> </ul> </div> </td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475" /><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Newspaper_Cover.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Media mention" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Newspaper_Cover.svg/40px-Newspaper_Cover.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Newspaper_Cover.svg/60px-Newspaper_Cover.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Newspaper_Cover.svg/80px-Newspaper_Cover.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="120" data-file-height="120" /></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1214851843" /><div class="hidden-begin mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style=""><div class="hidden-title skin-nightmode-reset-color" style="">This article has been <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Press_coverage" title="Wikipedia:Press coverage">mentioned by multiple media organizations</a>:</div><div class="hidden-content mw-collapsible-content" style=""> <ul><li><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1238218222">.mw-parser-output cite.citation{font-style:inherit;word-wrap:break-word}.mw-parser-output .citation q{quotes:"\"""\"""'""'"}.mw-parser-output .citation:target{background-color:rgba(0,127,255,0.133)}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-free.id-lock-free a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Lock-green.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited.id-lock-limited a,.mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration.id-lock-registration a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Lock-gray-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription.id-lock-subscription a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Lock-red-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Wikisource-logo.svg")right 0.1em center/12px no-repeat}body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-free a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background-size:contain;padding:0 1em 0 0}.mw-parser-output .cs1-code{color:inherit;background:inherit;border:none;padding:inherit}.mw-parser-output .cs1-hidden-error{display:none;color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-visible-error{color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{display:none;color:#085;margin-left:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-left{padding-left:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-right{padding-right:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .citation .mw-selflink{font-weight:inherit}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .cs1-format{font-size:95%}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}</style><cite class="citation news cs1"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/wikipedia/6043534/The-50-most-viewed-Wikipedia-articles-in-2009-and-2008.html">"The 50 most-viewed Wikipedia articles in 2009 and 2008"</a>. <i><a href="/wiki/The_Daily_Telegraph" title="The Daily Telegraph">The Daily Telegraph</a></i>. August 17, 2009.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.atitle=The+50+most-viewed+Wikipedia+articles+in+2009+and+2008&rft.date=2009-08-17&rft_id=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Ftechnology%2Fwikipedia%2F6043534%2FThe-50-most-viewed-Wikipedia-articles-in-2009-and-2008.html&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AUnited+States" class="Z3988"></span></li> <li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222" /><cite class="citation news cs1"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23354613">"Topics that spark Wikipedia 'edit wars' revealed"</a>. <a href="/wiki/BBC_News" title="BBC News">BBC News</a>. July 18, 2013<span class="reference-accessdate">. Retrieved <span class="nowrap">July 18,</span> 2013</span>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.atitle=Topics+that+spark+Wikipedia+%27edit+wars%27+revealed&rft.date=2013-07-18&rft_id=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Ftechnology-23354613&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AUnited+States" class="Z3988"></span></li></ul> </div></div></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475" /><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1243927654" /><table role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice banner-shell mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/83/NewFavicon_icon.svg/24px-NewFavicon_icon.svg.png" decoding="async" width="24" height="22" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/83/NewFavicon_icon.svg/36px-NewFavicon_icon.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/83/NewFavicon_icon.svg/48px-NewFavicon_icon.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="400" data-file-height="360" /></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text banner-shell-header"><span class="nowrap" style="float:left">          </span>Other talk page banners</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="banner-shell-inner outercollapse"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475" /><table class="box-backwards-copy plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Newspaper_Cover.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Newspaper_Cover.svg/50px-Newspaper_Cover.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Newspaper_Cover.svg/75px-Newspaper_Cover.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Newspaper_Cover.svg/100px-Newspaper_Cover.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="120" data-file-height="120" /></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article is substantially duplicated by a piece in an external publication. Since the external publication copied Wikipedia rather than the reverse, please do not flag this article as a copyright violation of the following sources: <ul><li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222" /><cite class="citation cs2">Surhone, L. M., Timpledon, M. T., & Marseken, S. F. (2010), <i>Orson Scott Card: United States, author, critic, public speaking, activism, genre</i>, Betascript Publishing</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Orson+Scott+Card%3A+United+States%2C+author%2C+critic%2C+public+speaking%2C+activism%2C+genre&rft.pub=Betascript+Publishing&rft.date=2010&rft.au=Surhone%2C+L.+M.%2C+Timpledon%2C+M.+T.%2C+%26+Marseken%2C+S.+F.&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AUnited+States" class="Z3988"></span><span class="cs1-maint citation-comment"><code class="cs1-code">{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Citation" title="Template:Citation">citation</a>}}</code>: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (<a href="/wiki/Category:CS1_maint:_multiple_names:_authors_list" title="Category:CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list">link</a>)</span></li><li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222" /><cite class="citation cs2">Miller, F. P., Vandome, A. F., & McBrewster, J. (2009), <i>Biosphere 2: Biosphere 2, closed ecological system, Oracle, Arizona, Arizona, United States, Biome, space colonization, Biosphere, rainforest, Ed Bass, BIOS-3, Eden project</i>, Alphascript</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Biosphere+2%3A+Biosphere+2%2C+closed+ecological+system%2C+Oracle%2C+Arizona%2C+Arizona%2C+United+States%2C+Biome%2C+space+colonization%2C+Biosphere%2C+rainforest%2C+Ed+Bass%2C+BIOS-3%2C+Eden+project&rft.pub=Alphascript&rft.date=2009&rft.au=Miller%2C+F.+P.%2C+Vandome%2C+A.+F.%2C+%26+McBrewster%2C+J.&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AUnited+States" class="Z3988"></span><span class="cs1-maint citation-comment"><code class="cs1-code">{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Citation" title="Template:Citation">citation</a>}}</code>: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (<a href="/wiki/Category:CS1_maint:_multiple_names:_authors_list" title="Category:CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list">link</a>)</span></li><li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222" /><cite class="citation cs2">Miller, F. P., Vandome, A. F., & McBrewster, J. (2010), <i>Military journalism: Combatant commander, psychological warfare, United States, public affairs (military), propaganda, journalist, Civil-military operations</i>, Alphascript Publishing</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Military+journalism%3A+Combatant+commander%2C+psychological+warfare%2C+United+States%2C+public+affairs+%28military%29%2C+propaganda%2C+journalist%2C+Civil-military+operations&rft.pub=Alphascript+Publishing&rft.date=2010&rft.au=Miller%2C+F.+P.%2C+Vandome%2C+A.+F.%2C+%26+McBrewster%2C+J.&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AUnited+States" class="Z3988"></span><span class="cs1-maint citation-comment"><code class="cs1-code">{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Citation" title="Template:Citation">citation</a>}}</code>: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (<a href="/wiki/Category:CS1_maint:_multiple_names:_authors_list" title="Category:CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list">link</a>)</span></li></ul> <table class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="width:100%; background-color: #f8eaba;"><tbody><tr><th>Additional comments</th></tr><tr><td style="background-color: white; border: 1px solid #c0c090; padding: 0.25em 0.5em;"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222" /><a href="/wiki/OCLC_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="OCLC (identifier)">OCLC</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.worldcat.org/oclc/636651797">636651797</a>, <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222" /><a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/9786130336431" title="Special:BookSources/9786130336431">9786130336431</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475" /><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><span title="states"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Article_blue.svg/22px-Article_blue.svg.png" decoding="async" width="22" height="29" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Article_blue.svg/33px-Article_blue.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Article_blue.svg/44px-Article_blue.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="512" data-file-height="669" /></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article has been viewed enough times to make it onto the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Popular_pages#Top-100_list" title="Wikipedia:Popular pages">all-time Top 100 list</a>. It has had 237 million views since December 2007.</td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475" /><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><span title="states"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Article_blue.svg/22px-Article_blue.svg.png" decoding="async" width="22" height="29" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Article_blue.svg/33px-Article_blue.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Article_blue.svg/44px-Article_blue.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="512" data-file-height="669" /></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article has been viewed enough times in a single year to make it into the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_50_Report" title="Wikipedia:Top 50 Report">Top 50 Report</a> annual list. This happened in <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:2007_Top_50_Report" title="Wikipedia:2007 Top 50 Report">2007</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:2008_Top_50_Report" title="Wikipedia:2008 Top 50 Report">2008</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:2009_Top_50_Report" title="Wikipedia:2009 Top 50 Report">2009</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:2010_Top_50_Report" title="Wikipedia:2010 Top 50 Report">2010</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:2011_Top_50_Report" title="Wikipedia:2011 Top 50 Report">2011</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:2012_Top_50_Report" title="Wikipedia:2012 Top 50 Report">2012</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:2013_Top_50_Report" title="Wikipedia:2013 Top 50 Report">2013</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:2014_Top_50_Report" title="Wikipedia:2014 Top 50 Report">2014</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:2015_Top_50_Report" title="Wikipedia:2015 Top 50 Report">2015</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/2016" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/2016">2016</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:2017_Top_50_Report" title="Wikipedia:2017 Top 50 Report">2017</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:2018_Top_50_Report" title="Wikipedia:2018 Top 50 Report">2018</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:2019_Top_50_Report" title="Wikipedia:2019 Top 50 Report">2019</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:2020_Top_50_Report" title="Wikipedia:2020 Top 50 Report">2020</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:2021_Top_50_Report" title="Wikipedia:2021 Top 50 Report">2021</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:2022_Top_50_Report" title="Wikipedia:2022 Top 50 Report">2022</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:2023_Top_50_Report" title="Wikipedia:2023 Top 50 Report">2023</a>, and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:2024_Top_50_Report" title="Wikipedia:2024 Top 50 Report">2024</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475" /><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Article_blue.svg/22px-Article_blue.svg.png" decoding="async" width="22" height="29" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Article_blue.svg/33px-Article_blue.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Article_blue.svg/44px-Article_blue.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="512" data-file-height="669" /></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"><div>This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report">Top 25 Report</a> <b>46</b> times. The weeks in which this happened:</div><div class="mw-collapsible-content"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1129693374" /><div class="hlist" style="display:inline-block"><ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/April_7_to_13,_2013" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/April 7 to 13, 2013">April 7 to 13, 2013</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/April_28_to_May_4,_2013" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/April 28 to May 4, 2013">April 28 to May 4, 2013</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/May_5_to_11,_2013" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/May 5 to 11, 2013">May 5 to 11, 2013</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/September_8_to_14,_2013" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/September 8 to 14, 2013">September 8 to 14, 2013</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/October_6_to_12,_2013" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/October 6 to 12, 2013">October 6 to 12, 2013</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/October_13_to_19,_2013" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/October 13 to 19, 2013">October 13 to 19, 2013</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/October_20_to_26,_2013" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/October 20 to 26, 2013">October 20 to 26, 2013</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/October_27_to_November_2,_2013" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/October 27 to November 2, 2013">October 27 to November 2, 2013</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/November_3_to_9,_2013" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/November 3 to 9, 2013">November 3 to 9, 2013</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/November_10_to_16,_2013" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/November 10 to 16, 2013">November 10 to 16, 2013</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/November_17_to_23,_2013" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/November 17 to 23, 2013">November 17 to 23, 2013</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/November_24_to_30,_2013" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/November 24 to 30, 2013">November 24 to 30, 2013</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/December_1_to_7,_2013" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/December 1 to 7, 2013">December 1 to 7, 2013</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/December_8_to_14,_2013" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/December 8 to 14, 2013">December 8 to 14, 2013</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/December_15_to_21,_2013" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/December 15 to 21, 2013">December 15 to 21, 2013</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/December_22_to_28,_2013" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/December 22 to 28, 2013">December 22 to 28, 2013</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/December_29,_2013_to_January_4,_2014" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/December 29, 2013 to January 4, 2014">December 29, 2013 to January 4, 2014</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/January_5_to_11,_2014" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/January 5 to 11, 2014">January 5 to 11, 2014</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/January_12_to_18,_2014" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/January 12 to 18, 2014">January 12 to 18, 2014</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/January_19_to_25,_2014" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/January 19 to 25, 2014">January 19 to 25, 2014</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/January_26_to_February_1,_2014" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/January 26 to February 1, 2014">January 26 to February 1, 2014</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/February_2_to_8,_2014" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/February 2 to 8, 2014">February 2 to 8, 2014</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/February_9_to_15,_2014" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/February 9 to 15, 2014">February 9 to 15, 2014</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/February_16_to_22,_2014" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/February 16 to 22, 2014">February 16 to 22, 2014</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/February_23_to_March_1,_2014" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/February 23 to March 1, 2014">February 23 to March 1, 2014</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/March_9_to_15,_2014" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/March 9 to 15, 2014">March 9 to 15, 2014</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/March_16_to_22,_2014" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/March 16 to 22, 2014">March 16 to 22, 2014</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/March_23_to_29,_2014" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/March 23 to 29, 2014">March 23 to 29, 2014</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/March_30_to_April_5,_2014" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/March 30 to April 5, 2014">March 30 to April 5, 2014</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/April_27_to_May_3,_2014" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/April 27 to May 3, 2014">April 27 to May 3, 2014</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/May_4_to_10,_2014" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/May 4 to 10, 2014">May 4 to 10, 2014</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/September_21_to_27,_2014" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/September 21 to 27, 2014">September 21 to 27, 2014</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/October_12_to_18,_2014" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/October 12 to 18, 2014">October 12 to 18, 2014</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/November_9_to_15,_2014" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/November 9 to 15, 2014">November 9 to 15, 2014</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/November_16_to_22,_2014" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/November 16 to 22, 2014">November 16 to 22, 2014</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/November_30_to_December_6,_2014" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/November 30 to December 6, 2014">November 30 to December 6, 2014</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/December_7_to_13,_2014" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/December 7 to 13, 2014">December 7 to 13, 2014</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/December_14_to_20,_2014" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/December 14 to 20, 2014">December 14 to 20, 2014</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/January_25_to_31,_2015" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/January 25 to 31, 2015">January 25 to 31, 2015</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/April_19_to_25,_2015" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/April 19 to 25, 2015">April 19 to 25, 2015</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/May_10_to_16,_2015" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/May 10 to 16, 2015">May 10 to 16, 2015</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/November_8_to_14,_2015" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/November 8 to 14, 2015">November 8 to 14, 2015</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/March_27_to_April_2,_2016" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/March 27 to April 2, 2016">March 27 to April 2, 2016</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/April_10_to_16,_2016" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/April 10 to 16, 2016">April 10 to 16, 2016</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/May_15_to_21,_2016" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/May 15 to 21, 2016">May 15 to 21, 2016</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Top_25_Report/May_22_to_28,_2016" title="Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/May 22 to 28, 2016">May 22 to 28, 2016</a></li></ul></div></div></div></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475" /><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/40px-Information_icon4.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/60px-Information_icon4.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/80px-Information_icon4.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="620" data-file-height="620" /></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1256386598">.mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#F0F2F5;color:inherit}.mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#CCFFCC;color:inherit}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#14181F;color:inherit}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#003500;color:inherit}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#14181F;color:inherit}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#003500;color:inherit}}</style> <div style="margin-left:0"> <table class="mw-collapsible mw-archivedtalk mw-collapsed" style="color:inherit; background: transparent; text-align: left; border: 1px solid Silver; margin: 0.2em auto auto; width:100%; clear: both; padding: 1px;"> <tbody><tr> <th class="cot-header-other" style="background:#F0F2F5; font-size:87%; padding:0.2em 0.3em; text-align:center; color:#202122"><div style="font-size:115%;margin:0 4em">Section sizes</div> </th></tr> <tr> <td style="color:inherit; border: solid 1px Silver; padding: 0.6em; background: var(--background-color-base, #fff);"> <table class="wikitable sortable" style=""> <caption>Section size for <a href="/wiki/United_States" title="United States">United States</a> (52 sections) </caption> <tbody><tr> <th>Section name</th> <th>Byte<br />count</th> <th>Section<br />total </th></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/United_States#(Top)" title="United States">(Top)</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:red;">23,462</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8ACAC;font-weight:bold;">23,462 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/United_States#Etymology" title="United States">Etymology</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8B0B0;">6,998</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E3E3;font-weight:bold;">6,998 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/United_States#History" title="United States">History</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F9F9;">113</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F80B0B;font-weight:bold;">71,636 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Indigenous_peoples" title="United States">Indigenous peoples</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E0E0;">2,499</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">2,499 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#European_exploration,_colonization_and_conflict_(1513–1765)" title="United States">European exploration, colonization and conflict (1513–1765)</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F89292;">9,766</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">9,766 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#American_Revolution_and_the_early_republic_(1765–1800)" title="United States">American Revolution and the early republic (1765–1800)</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8BCBC;">5,881</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">5,881 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Westward_expansion_and_Civil_War_(1800–1865)" title="United States">Westward expansion and Civil War (1800–1865)</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F85656;">15,416</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">15,416 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Post–Civil_War_era_(1865–1917)" title="United States">Post–Civil War era (1865–1917)</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F89191;">9,857</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">9,857 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Rise_as_a_superpower_(1917–1945)" title="United States">Rise as a superpower (1917–1945)</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8C0C0;">5,530</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">5,530 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Cold_War_(1945–1991)" title="United States">Cold War (1945–1991)</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8B3B3;">6,708</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">6,708 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Contemporary_(1991–present)" title="United States">Contemporary (1991–present)</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F85151;">15,866</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">15,866 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/United_States#Geography" title="United States">Geography</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8B0B0;">7,020</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8BDBD;font-weight:bold;">18,391 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Climate" title="United States">Climate</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8CCCC;">4,321</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">4,321 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Biodiversity_and_conservation" title="United States">Biodiversity and conservation</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8AFAF;">7,050</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">7,050 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/United_States#Government_and_politics" title="United States">Government and politics</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8DCDC;">2,855</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F86D6D;font-weight:bold;">42,459 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#National_government" title="United States">National government</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F89191;">9,923</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">9,923 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Political_parties" title="United States">Political parties</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E2E2;">2,300</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">2,300 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Subdivisions" title="United States">Subdivisions</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E0E0;">2,458</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">2,458 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Foreign_relations" title="United States">Foreign relations</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F88787;">10,802</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">10,802 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Military" title="United States">Military</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8B2B2;">6,772</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">6,772 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Law_enforcement_and_criminal_justice" title="United States">Law enforcement and criminal justice</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8ACAC;">7,349</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">7,349 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/United_States#Economy" title="United States">Economy</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F80606;">22,982</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F85050;font-weight:bold;">51,106 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Science_and_technology" title="United States">Science and technology</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8BFBF;">5,598</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">5,598 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Spaceflight" title="United States">Spaceflight</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8C4C4;">5,079</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">5,079 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Energy" title="United States">Energy</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E1E1;">2,353</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">2,353 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Transportation" title="United States">Transportation</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F85A5A;">15,094</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">15,094 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/United_States#Demographics" title="United States">Demographics</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8FAFA;">63</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F88080;font-weight:bold;">36,752 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Population" title="United States">Population</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8B1B1;">6,870</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">6,870 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Language" title="United States">Language</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8BEBE;">5,636</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">5,636 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Immigration" title="United States">Immigration</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8D6D6;">3,421</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">3,421 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Religion" title="United States">Religion</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8B7B7;">6,329</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">6,329 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Urbanization" title="United States">Urbanization</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E7E7;">1,833</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,833 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Health" title="United States">Health</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8C0C0;">5,498</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">5,498 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Education" title="United States">Education</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8AFAF;">7,102</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">7,102 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/United_States#Culture_and_society" title="United States">Culture and society</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F84747;">16,832</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:red;font-weight:bold;">74,816 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Literature" title="United States">Literature</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8B8B8;">6,284</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">6,284 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Mass_media" title="United States">Mass media</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8BFBF;">5,615</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">5,615 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Theater" title="United States">Theater</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8DEDE;">2,695</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">2,695 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Visual_arts" title="United States">Visual arts</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8CCCC;">4,388</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">4,388 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Music" title="United States">Music</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F89C9C;">8,839</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">8,839 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Fashion" title="United States">Fashion</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8D6D6;">3,398</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">3,398 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Cinema" title="United States">Cinema</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8B6B6;">6,410</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">6,410 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Cuisine" title="United States">Cuisine</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F88A8A;">10,537</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">10,537 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Sports" title="United States">Sports</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F89292;">9,818</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">9,818 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/United_States#See_also" title="United States">See also</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8FAFA;">93</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8FAFA;font-weight:bold;">93 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/United_States#Notes" title="United States">Notes</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F6F6;">459</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F9F9;font-weight:bold;">459 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/United_States#References" title="United States">References</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8FAFA;">30</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8C4C4;font-weight:bold;">16,329 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Sources" title="United States">Sources</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F84D4D;">16,299</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">16,299 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/United_States#External_links" title="United States">External links</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F5F5;">504</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F1F1;font-weight:bold;">2,861 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Government" title="United States">Government</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F5F5;">496</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">496 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#History" title="United States">History</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F5F5;">556</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">556 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/United_States#Maps" title="United States">Maps</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8EDED;">1,305</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,305 </td></tr> <tr> <th>Total</th> <th style="text-align:right">345,362</th> <th style="text-align:right">345,362 </th></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr></tbody></table></div></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475" /><table class="box-Xreadership 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class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://pageviews.toolforge.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&range=latest-60&pages=United+States">update it</a></span>; see <a href="/wiki/Template:Xreadership#Instructions" title="Template:Xreadership">§ Instructions</a>.</div></div></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <p class="mw-empty-elt"> </p> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc" /> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Add_a_section_for_human_rights" data-mw-thread-id="h-Add_a_section_for_human_rights-20241228081800"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Add_a_section_for_human_rights-20241228081800"></span>Add a section for human rights<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Add_a_section_for_human_rights-20241228081800"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-103.165.29.160-20241228081800-Add_a_section_for_human_rights"></span>I understand that Wikipedia editors are mostly Americans, but it seems like many of them are either American nationalists or hired by the American government to write these pages. I was reading the Wikipedia articles about some countries (not Western ones), and most of them had a special section dedicated to that nation's human rights violations. However, I don't see anything like that for the United States. The United States committed more human rights <a href="/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change" title="United States involvement in regime change">violations</a> in the last two decades than any other nation, and its history and current system is filled with human rights violations against its own <a href="/wiki/Category:Human_rights_abuses_in_the_United_States" title="Category:Human rights abuses in the United States">citizens</a>, <a href="/wiki/Black_genocide_in_the_United_States" title="Black genocide in the United States">against Black people</a>, or against <a href="/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change" title="United States involvement in regime change">citizens of other countries</a>. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/103.165.29.160" title="Special:Contributions/103.165.29.160">103.165.29.160</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:103.165.29.160&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:103.165.29.160 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-103.165.29.160-20241228081800-Add_a_section_for_human_rights" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:18, 28 December 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-103.165.29.160-20241228081800-Add_a_section_for_human_rights"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-103.165.29.160-20241228081800-Add_a_section_for_human_rights"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JacktheBrown-20250103195800-103.165.29.160-20241228081800"></span>You're 100% right, unfortunately in this case the fact that many users are Americans doesn't help. <a href="/wiki/User:JacktheBrown" title="User:JacktheBrown">JacktheBrown</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JacktheBrown" title="User talk:JacktheBrown">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-JacktheBrown-20250103195800-103.165.29.160-20241228081800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:58, 3 January 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JacktheBrown-20250103195800-103.165.29.160-20241228081800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JacktheBrown-20250103195800-103.165.29.160-20241228081800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-103.165.29.209-20250104160100-JacktheBrown-20250103195800"></span>Atleast we need to discuss about it. Why this is not included . <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/103.165.29.209" title="Special:Contributions/103.165.29.209">103.165.29.209</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:103.165.29.209&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:103.165.29.209 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-103.165.29.209-20250104160100-JacktheBrown-20250103195800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-103.165.29.209-20250104160100-JacktheBrown-20250103195800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-103.165.29.209-20250104160100-JacktheBrown-20250103195800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JacktheBrown-20250105144400-103.165.29.209-20250104160100"></span>Discussion link? <a href="/wiki/User:JacktheBrown" title="User:JacktheBrown">JacktheBrown</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JacktheBrown" title="User talk:JacktheBrown">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-JacktheBrown-20250105144400-103.165.29.209-20250104160100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JacktheBrown-20250105144400-103.165.29.209-20250104160100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JacktheBrown-20250105144400-103.165.29.209-20250104160100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moxy-20250105145900-JacktheBrown-20250105144400"></span>Dont think we should segregate info like this as outlined at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:COUNTRYSECTIONS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:COUNTRYSECTIONS">WP:COUNTRYSECTIONS</a>...but would easy to do for USA as there is not much.</dd> <dd>"Discrimination and violence against LGBTI people, anti-LGBTI legislation, and limitations on abortion access are prevalent. Indigenous women faced gender-based violence disproportionately. Issues surrounding asylum seekers, the death penalty, and arbitrary detention at Guantánamo Bay were ongoing. Gun violence remained a major problem, and there were restrictions on the right to protest in multiple states. Excessive use of force by police disproportionately affected Black individuals".......one of many sources....<link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222" /><cite class="citation web cs1"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/americas/north-america/united-states-of-america/report-united-states-of-america/">"Human rights in United States of America"</a>. <i>Amnesty International</i>. March 29, 2024.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=unknown&rft.jtitle=Amnesty+International&rft.atitle=Human+rights+in+United+States+of+America&rft.date=2024-03-29&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amnesty.org%2Fen%2Flocation%2Famericas%2Fnorth-america%2Funited-states-of-america%2Freport-united-states-of-america%2F&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AUnited+States" class="Z3988"></span> <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:-15deg;color:darkblue"><b><a href="/wiki/User:Moxy" title="User:Moxy">Moxy</a></b></span><span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:15deg;color:darkblue"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moxy" title="User talk:Moxy">🍁</a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Moxy-20250105145900-JacktheBrown-20250105144400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moxy-20250105145900-JacktheBrown-20250105144400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moxy-20250105145900-JacktheBrown-20250105144400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-103.165.29.214-20250107215300-Moxy-20250105145900"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:JacktheBrown" title="User:JacktheBrown">JacktheBrown</a> need more link ? <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/103.165.29.214" title="Special:Contributions/103.165.29.214">103.165.29.214</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:103.165.29.214&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:103.165.29.214 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-103.165.29.214-20250107215300-Moxy-20250105145900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-103.165.29.214-20250107215300-Moxy-20250105145900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-103.165.29.214-20250107215300-Moxy-20250105145900"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2601:147:4400:45E0:A529:6FD7:C817:56A3-20250202162700-103.165.29.160-20241228081800"></span>I agree with the aforementioned. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2601:147:4400:45E0:A529:6FD7:C817:56A3" title="Special:Contributions/2601:147:4400:45E0:A529:6FD7:C817:56A3">2601:147:4400:45E0:A529:6FD7:C817:56A3</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2601:147:4400:45E0:A529:6FD7:C817:56A3&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:2601:147:4400:45E0:A529:6FD7:C817:56A3 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-2601:147:4400:45E0:A529:6FD7:C817:56A3-20250202162700-103.165.29.160-20241228081800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:27, 2 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2601:147:4400:45E0:A529:6FD7:C817:56A3-20250202162700-103.165.29.160-20241228081800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2601:147:4400:45E0:A529:6FD7:C817:56A3-20250202162700-103.165.29.160-20241228081800"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SimpleSubCubicGraph-20250203053300-103.165.29.160-20241228081800"></span>@<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:103.165.29.160&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:103.165.29.160 (page does not exist)">103.165.29.160</a> <a href="/wiki/Category:Human_rights_abuses_in_the_United_States" title="Category:Human rights abuses in the United States">Category:Human rights abuses in the United States</a>. There are simply too many human rights abuses (100+ pages) committed by the United States to merge it into the article. Though a small section to alert people of the category page would be nice. <a href="/wiki/User:SimpleSubCubicGraph" title="User:SimpleSubCubicGraph">SimpleSubCubicGraph</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SimpleSubCubicGraph" title="User talk:SimpleSubCubicGraph">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-SimpleSubCubicGraph-20250203053300-103.165.29.160-20241228081800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:33, 3 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SimpleSubCubicGraph-20250203053300-103.165.29.160-20241228081800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SimpleSubCubicGraph-20250203053300-103.165.29.160-20241228081800"></span></dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_United_States" title="Human rights in the United States"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-QuietHere-20250205153100-103.165.29.160-20241228081800"></span>Human rights in the United States</a> already exists and is currently about two-thirds the size of <a href="/wiki/United_States" title="United States">United States</a>. A small section with a <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Main" title="Template:Main">main</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> link would be useful (it is linked in the lead, but not mentioned in the body), but the whole thing would be overwhelming for the article. <a href="/wiki/User:QuietHere" title="User:QuietHere">QuietHere</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:QuietHere" title="User talk:QuietHere">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/QuietHere" title="Special:Contributions/QuietHere">contributions</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-QuietHere-20250205153100-103.165.29.160-20241228081800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:31, 5 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-QuietHere-20250205153100-103.165.29.160-20241228081800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-QuietHere-20250205153100-103.165.29.160-20241228081800"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Oligarchy_vs_Democracy" data-mw-thread-id="h-Oligarchy_vs_Democracy-20250115154200"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Oligarchy_vs_Democracy-20250115154200"></span>Oligarchy vs Democracy<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Oligarchy_vs_Democracy-20250115154200"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-24.79.242.248-20250115154200-Oligarchy_vs_Democracy"></span>In the government section we may want to add that in 2025 the United states became, or moved towards, an Oligarchy governing system and away from Democracy? (See link for a paper talking about definitions.) </p><p><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://economics.mit.edu/sites/default/files/publications/oligarchic%20vs%20democratic%20societies.pdf">https://economics.mit.edu/sites/default/files/publications/oligarchic%20vs%20democratic%20societies.pdf</a> </p><p>It does seem like it is now the era of monopolies, and barriers to entering the entrepreneurial landscape are starting to rise, along with wealth being concentrated in fewer and fewer hands. (See below links about rising monopolies, as well as the decline in new small businesses.) </p><p><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/republicans/2022/12/entrepreneurship-and-the-decline-of-american-growth">https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/republicans/2022/12/entrepreneurship-and-the-decline-of-american-growth</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/08/health/primary-care-doctors-consolidation.html">https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/08/health/primary-care-doctors-consolidation.html</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnmauldin/2019/04/11/america-has-a-monopoly-problem/">https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnmauldin/2019/04/11/america-has-a-monopoly-problem/</a> </p><p>The new USA administration being filled with 13 billionaires, plus many more millionaires, with a drastic increase in the total wealth of the new governing figures overall, seems to be pretty conclusive evidence towards the change in governmental types being valid. </p><p><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://abcnews.go.com/US/trump-tapped-unprecedented-13-billionaires-top-administration-roles/story?id=116872968">https://abcnews.go.com/US/trump-tapped-unprecedented-13-billionaires-top-administration-roles/story?id=116872968</a> </p><p>But I'm not a political historian so I can't be sure this is a valid definitional change. I'm hoping this topic of discussion will attract true experts who can chime in on this edit and either validate it or negate it. So please if you are knowledgeable about this topic, chime in to educate me/us. I just figured this seems like it needed to be updated, and if an uneducated person like me watching the USA political upheaval from afar (Not American! So I promise I don't really care about their weird Blue vs Red stuff!) now has questions about what to categorize the USA government as, then it might be time to change it. </p><p>Even if you disagree that it has not fully become one as of January 20th, it does seem to be moving in that direction, and it seems false to not mention it and to pretend that the USA is still a pure Republic Democracy? </p><p>So anyways, I figured it was worth discussing. Thanks for your time! <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/24.79.242.248" title="Special:Contributions/24.79.242.248">24.79.242.248</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:24.79.242.248&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:24.79.242.248 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-24.79.242.248-20250115154200-Oligarchy_vs_Democracy" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-24.79.242.248-20250115154200-Oligarchy_vs_Democracy"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-24.79.242.248-20250115154200-Oligarchy_vs_Democracy"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moxy-20250115160000-24.79.242.248-20250115154200"></span>Not a widely held view <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222" /><cite id="CITEREFBashir2015" class="citation journal cs1">Bashir, Omar S. (1 October 2015). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://doi.org/10.1177%2F2053168015608896">"Testing Inferences about American Politics: A Review of the "Oligarchy" Result"</a>. <i>Research & Politics</i>. <b>2</b> (4): 2053168015608896. <a href="/wiki/Doi_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="Doi (identifier)">doi</a>:<span class="id-lock-free" title="Freely accessible"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://doi.org/10.1177%2F2053168015608896">10.1177/2053168015608896</a></span>. <a href="/wiki/ISSN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISSN (identifier)">ISSN</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://search.worldcat.org/issn/2053-1680">2053-1680</a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=Research+%26+Politics&rft.atitle=Testing+Inferences+about+American+Politics%3A+A+Review+of+the+%22Oligarchy%22+Result&rft.volume=2&rft.issue=4&rft.pages=2053168015608896&rft.date=2015-10-01&rft_id=info%3Adoi%2F10.1177%2F2053168015608896&rft.issn=2053-1680&rft.aulast=Bashir&rft.aufirst=Omar+S.&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.1177%252F2053168015608896&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AUnited+States" class="Z3988"></span> <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:-15deg;color:darkblue"><b><a href="/wiki/User:Moxy" title="User:Moxy">Moxy</a></b></span><span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:15deg;color:darkblue"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moxy" title="User talk:Moxy">🍁</a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Moxy-20250115160000-24.79.242.248-20250115154200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moxy-20250115160000-24.79.242.248-20250115154200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moxy-20250115160000-24.79.242.248-20250115154200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Appalling-20250117140100-Moxy-20250115160000"></span>from your source: <i>According to several journalistic accounts but not Gilens and Page themselves, the findings show that the American system of government is best understood as “oligarchy.”</i> which means America as an oligarchy was a widely spread view after their study's findings. This study was also pre-2016. Now, in 2025, it is a widely held view that America is at least transitioning into (if not already) an oligarchy and/or has oligarchs.</dd> <dd>Stuart, Riley "Inside the rise of US oligarchs and how it opened a dark money 'floodgate'" ABC Australia <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-11-21/inside-the-rise-of-us-oligarchs/104622344">[1]</a></dd> <dd>Nover, Scott "Oligarchy Comes to America" Slate <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://slate.com/business/2024/11/donald-trump-election-elon-musk-bill-gates-american-oligarcy-wealthy-donors-politics.html">[2]</a></dd> <dd>Bernie Sanders statement on oligarchy in America <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://vermontbiz.com/news/2024/december/02/sanders-statement-oligarchy-america">[3]</a></dd> <dd>"Oxfam: Musk’s appointment to Trump’s administration signals that “oligarchy is taking hold of American democracy”" <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.oxfamamerica.org/press/press-releases/oxfam-musks-appointment-to-trumps-administration-signals-that-oligarchy-is-taking-hold-of-american-democracy/">[4]</a></dd> <dd>Parton, Hannah Digby "Commentary: Making American oligarchy great again" Salon <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.salon.com/2025/01/15/making-american-oligarchy-great-again/">[5]</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Appalling" title="User:Appalling">Appalling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Appalling" title="User talk:Appalling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Appalling-20250117140100-Moxy-20250115160000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Appalling-20250117140100-Moxy-20250115160000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Appalling-20250117140100-Moxy-20250115160000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zyxrq-20250121025400-Appalling-20250117140100"></span>You could make an argument that the united states has been an oligarchy for a long time. <a href="/wiki/User:Zyxrq" title="User:Zyxrq">Zyxrq</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Zyxrq" title="User talk:Zyxrq">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Zyxrq-20250121025400-Appalling-20250117140100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:54, 21 January 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zyxrq-20250121025400-Appalling-20250117140100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zyxrq-20250121025400-Appalling-20250117140100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moxy-20250121030300-Zyxrq-20250121025400"></span>Main problem is media as sources for something that has been covered widely by academic publications for decades. <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:-15deg;color:darkblue"><b><a href="/wiki/User:Moxy" title="User:Moxy">Moxy</a></b></span><span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:15deg;color:darkblue"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moxy" title="User talk:Moxy">🍁</a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Moxy-20250121030300-Zyxrq-20250121025400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moxy-20250121030300-Zyxrq-20250121025400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moxy-20250121030300-Zyxrq-20250121025400"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-ClearConcise-20250206191200-24.79.242.248-20250115154200"></span>What is the status on making this change? I would like to change the sentence, "The <a href="/wiki/Federal_government_of_the_United_States" title="Federal government of the United States">U.S. national government</a> is a <a href="/wiki/Presidential_system" title="Presidential system">presidential</a> <a href="/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_States" title="Constitution of the United States">constitutional</a> <a href="/wiki/Federal_republic" title="Federal republic">federal republic</a> and <a href="/wiki/Liberal_democracy" title="Liberal democracy">liberal democracy</a> with <a href="/wiki/Separation_of_powers_under_the_United_States_Constitution" title="Separation of powers under the United States Constitution">three separate branches</a>: <a href="/wiki/United_States_Congress" title="United States Congress">legislative</a>, <a href="/wiki/United_States_federal_executive_departments" title="United States federal executive departments">executive</a>, and <a href="/wiki/Federal_judiciary_of_the_United_States" title="Federal judiciary of the United States">judicial</a>. " to "The <a href="/wiki/Federal_government_of_the_United_States" title="Federal government of the United States">U.S. national government</a> is a <a href="/wiki/Presidential_system" title="Presidential system">presidential</a> <a href="/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_States" title="Constitution of the United States">constitutional</a> <a href="/wiki/Federal_republic" title="Federal republic">federal republic</a> and <a href="/wiki/Oligarchy" title="Oligarchy">oligarchy</a> with <a href="/wiki/Separation_of_powers_under_the_United_States_Constitution" title="Separation of powers under the United States Constitution">three separate branches</a>: <a href="/wiki/United_States_Congress" title="United States Congress">legislative</a>, <a href="/wiki/United_States_federal_executive_departments" title="United States federal executive departments">executive</a>, and <a href="/wiki/Federal_judiciary_of_the_United_States" title="Federal judiciary of the United States">judicial</a>.</dd> <dd>citation: <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/abs/oligarchy-in-the-united-states/C23926DB2E90E340C4DC2B2BCDEEE27C">https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/abs/oligarchy-in-the-united-states/C23926DB2E90E340C4DC2B2BCDEEE27C</a> <a href="/wiki/User:ClearConcise" title="User:ClearConcise">ClearConcise</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ClearConcise" title="User talk:ClearConcise">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-ClearConcise-20250206191200-24.79.242.248-20250115154200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:12, 6 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-ClearConcise-20250206191200-24.79.242.248-20250115154200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-ClearConcise-20250206191200-24.79.242.248-20250115154200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Damien.Otis.x-20250221060800-ClearConcise-20250206191200"></span>Recently the president of the US has declared himself king and the sole interpreter of the law. Is "constitutional" still an appropriate term? In fact, the term absolute monarchy would probably be more appropriate then "federal republic."</dd> <dd>Furthermore, with the power concentrated in the executive, is it fair to say the gov't still has 3 branches, if two have been rendered obsolete?</dd> <dd><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Damien.Otis.x&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Damien.Otis.x (page does not exist)">Damien.Otis.x</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Damien.Otis.x" title="User talk:Damien.Otis.x">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Damien.Otis.x-20250221060800-ClearConcise-20250206191200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:08, 21 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Damien.Otis.x-20250221060800-ClearConcise-20250206191200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Damien.Otis.x-20250221060800-ClearConcise-20250206191200"></span> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JacktheBrown-20250221184500-Damien.Otis.x-20250221060800"></span>@<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Damien.Otis.x&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Damien.Otis.x (page does not exist)">Damien.Otis.x</a>:</span> the statement by the current president of the United States is just a provocation, Trump doesn't really think he's the king and sole interpreter of the law. <a href="/wiki/User:JacktheBrown" title="User:JacktheBrown">JacktheBrown</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JacktheBrown" title="User talk:JacktheBrown">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-JacktheBrown-20250221184500-Damien.Otis.x-20250221060800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:45, 21 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JacktheBrown-20250221184500-Damien.Otis.x-20250221060800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JacktheBrown-20250221184500-Damien.Otis.x-20250221060800"></span> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Project_2025" title="Project 2025"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Damien.Otis.x-20250221190000-JacktheBrown-20250221184500"></span>Project 2025</a> indicates that the republicans in the USA--who are now have control of all 3 branches of gov't--aim to change the fundamental structure of gov't, viz. investing all power in the executive and eliminating democracy. <a href="/wiki/Donald_Trump" title="Donald Trump">Donald Trump</a> himself said that if he won, nobody in the USA would ever have to vote ever again. Whether or not the president thinks he is a dictator is irrelevant; not only is the USA president fundamentally untrustworthy, he is acting in accordance with the believe that he is the ultimate authority in the country. I say this as an outsider, a Canadian who does not have a bias towards the USA, and someone who has experience living in the constitutional monarchy that is Canada. It is alarming to see what is happening, and the misinformation pacifying the population. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Damien.Otis.x&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Damien.Otis.x (page does not exist)">Damien.Otis.x</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Damien.Otis.x" title="User talk:Damien.Otis.x">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Damien.Otis.x-20250221190000-JacktheBrown-20250221184500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:00, 21 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Damien.Otis.x-20250221190000-JacktheBrown-20250221184500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Damien.Otis.x-20250221190000-JacktheBrown-20250221184500"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-The_Four_Deuces-20250221192700-24.79.242.248-20250115154200"></span>You could say that about all capitalist countries and by extension all democracies. The U.S. founding fathers such as Washington, Jefferson and Franklin were among the wealthiest people in the country but had broad support among the common people. <a href="/wiki/User:The_Four_Deuces" title="User:The Four Deuces">TFD</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:The_Four_Deuces" title="User talk:The Four Deuces">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-The_Four_Deuces-20250221192700-24.79.242.248-20250115154200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:27, 21 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-The_Four_Deuces-20250221192700-24.79.242.248-20250115154200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-The_Four_Deuces-20250221192700-24.79.242.248-20250115154200"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Senate_leader" data-mw-thread-id="h-Senate_leader-20250120010100"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Senate_leader-20250120010100"></span>Senate leader<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Senate_leader-20250120010100"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2603:7000:6E3B:BE70:547C:C31E:F30A:28F8-20250120010100-Senate_leader"></span>The infobox contains a list of leaders, which includes the Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson. Logically, it would make sense to also include the Senate Majority leader, John Thune. The Senate is the other part of Congress, and is in fact the "upper" chamber. So it doesn't make sense to include the House leader but not the Senate leader. Please add Thune's name to the infobox. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2603:7000:6E3B:BE70:547C:C31E:F30A:28F8" title="Special:Contributions/2603:7000:6E3B:BE70:547C:C31E:F30A:28F8">2603:7000:6E3B:BE70:547C:C31E:F30A:28F8</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2603:7000:6E3B:BE70:547C:C31E:F30A:28F8&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:2603:7000:6E3B:BE70:547C:C31E:F30A:28F8 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-2603:7000:6E3B:BE70:547C:C31E:F30A:28F8-20250120010100-Senate_leader" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2603:7000:6E3B:BE70:547C:C31E:F30A:28F8-20250120010100-Senate_leader"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2603:7000:6E3B:BE70:547C:C31E:F30A:28F8-20250120010100-Senate_leader"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dhtwiki-20250120020800-2603:7000:6E3B:BE70:547C:C31E:F30A:28F8-20250120010100"></span>The constitutionally enshrined senate leader is the vice-president. The majority leader is of relatively recent vintage (mid twentieth century), and whose power is uncertain. See the archives for previous detailed discussions that established consensus that the leader not be named. <a href="/wiki/User:Dhtwiki" title="User:Dhtwiki">Dhtwiki</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dhtwiki" title="User talk:Dhtwiki">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Dhtwiki-20250120020800-2603:7000:6E3B:BE70:547C:C31E:F30A:28F8-20250120010100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:08, 20 January 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dhtwiki-20250120020800-2603:7000:6E3B:BE70:547C:C31E:F30A:28F8-20250120010100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dhtwiki-20250120020800-2603:7000:6E3B:BE70:547C:C31E:F30A:28F8-20250120010100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-ClearConcise-20250206191600-Dhtwiki-20250120020800"></span>I agree. There is no "Senate leader" position described in the constitution except the President of the Senate, where as the Speaker of the House is explicitly mentioned. <a href="/wiki/User:ClearConcise" title="User:ClearConcise">ClearConcise</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ClearConcise" title="User talk:ClearConcise">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-ClearConcise-20250206191600-Dhtwiki-20250120020800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:16, 6 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-ClearConcise-20250206191600-Dhtwiki-20250120020800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-ClearConcise-20250206191600-Dhtwiki-20250120020800"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="name" data-mw-thread-id="h-name-20250128235400"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-name-20250128235400"></span>name<span data-mw-comment-end="h-name-20250128235400"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-ArturoHuhucumu-20250128235400-name"></span>I believe that seeing Trump's actions, police violence, looting of other countries, etc., it is timely to remember that "America" is the continent. "American" is the name of those who live in the country, so the USA should be called Amerikkka or the United States of Amerikkka. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:ArturoHuhucumu&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:ArturoHuhucumu (page does not exist)">ArturoHuhucumu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ArturoHuhucumu" title="User talk:ArturoHuhucumu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-ArturoHuhucumu-20250128235400-name" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:54, 28 January 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-ArturoHuhucumu-20250128235400-name"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-ArturoHuhucumu-20250128235400-name"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cullen328-20250130233100-ArturoHuhucumu-20250128235400"></span>Wikipedia uses the terminology also used by the overwhelming majority of reliable sources, not a usage coined by <a href="/wiki/Ice_Cube" title="Ice Cube">Ice Cube</a> in 1990. <a href="/wiki/User:Cullen328" title="User:Cullen328">Cullen328</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cullen328" title="User talk:Cullen328">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Cullen328-20250130233100-ArturoHuhucumu-20250128235400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:31, 30 January 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cullen328-20250130233100-ArturoHuhucumu-20250128235400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cullen328-20250130233100-ArturoHuhucumu-20250128235400"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maxeto0910-20250202133100-ArturoHuhucumu-20250128235400"></span>See last sentence of "Etymology" section. <a href="/wiki/User:Maxeto0910" title="User:Maxeto0910">Maxeto0910</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maxeto0910" title="User talk:Maxeto0910">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Maxeto0910-20250202133100-ArturoHuhucumu-20250128235400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:31, 2 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maxeto0910-20250202133100-ArturoHuhucumu-20250128235400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maxeto0910-20250202133100-ArturoHuhucumu-20250128235400"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="ISIS_and_End_of_Afghanistan" data-mw-thread-id="h-ISIS_and_End_of_Afghanistan-20250201005900"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-ISIS_and_End_of_Afghanistan-20250201005900"></span>ISIS and End of Afghanistan<span data-mw-comment-end="h-ISIS_and_End_of_Afghanistan-20250201005900"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DivineReality-20250201005900-ISIS_and_End_of_Afghanistan"></span>Hi folks. I made some edits, just copying from the ISIS and Afghanistan war-related articles already and their sources, and thought it would be timely to add them to the page. Here is my edit: <a class="external free" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States&oldid=1272770507">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States&oldid=1272770507</a> It was (you guessed it!) quickly reverted, the complaint being I didn't copy enough sources from the pages on <a href="/wiki/Islamic_State" title="Islamic State">Islamic State</a> and <a href="/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%932021)" title="War in Afghanistan (2001–2021)">War in Afghanistan (2001–2021)</a> and <a href="/wiki/United_States%E2%80%93Taliban_deal" title="United States–Taliban deal">United States–Taliban deal</a>. Or I guess the latter are fine, just the ISIS one, but both were reverted of course together (nobody here is very nuanced in their reversions, are they?). Anyways, let's discuss. Shall we keep my edits somewhat? Change them a bit? Just put them as a link under the subheading? Discuss away, contributors (and interlocuters, I guess--but let's be civil!). <a href="/wiki/User:DivineReality" title="User:DivineReality">DivineReality</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:DivineReality" title="User talk:DivineReality">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-DivineReality-20250201005900-ISIS_and_End_of_Afghanistan" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:59, 1 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DivineReality-20250201005900-ISIS_and_End_of_Afghanistan"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DivineReality-20250201005900-ISIS_and_End_of_Afghanistan"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Extended_confirmed_protection_edit_request" data-mw-thread-id="h-Extended_confirmed_protection_edit_request-20250203052400"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Extended_confirmed_protection_edit_request-20250203052400"></span>Extended confirmed protection edit request<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Extended_confirmed_protection_edit_request-20250203052400"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SimpleSubCubicGraph-20250203052400-Extended_confirmed_protection_edit_request"></span>This part: "Show territories with their exclusive economic zone". It should say "internationally recognized EEZ" instead. <a href="/wiki/User:SimpleSubCubicGraph" title="User:SimpleSubCubicGraph">SimpleSubCubicGraph</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SimpleSubCubicGraph" title="User talk:SimpleSubCubicGraph">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-SimpleSubCubicGraph-20250203052400-Extended_confirmed_protection_edit_request" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:24, 3 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SimpleSubCubicGraph-20250203052400-Extended_confirmed_protection_edit_request"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SimpleSubCubicGraph-20250203052400-Extended_confirmed_protection_edit_request"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tarlby-20250203053900-SimpleSubCubicGraph-20250203052400"></span><span class="nowrap"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/X_mark.svg/18px-X_mark.svg.png" decoding="async" width="18" height="21" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/X_mark.svg/27px-X_mark.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/X_mark.svg/36px-X_mark.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="525" data-file-height="600" /></span></span> <b>Not done</b></span> Per <a href="/wiki/MOS:EGG" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:EGG">MOS:EGG</a>, a reader wouldn't know what an "EEZ" was until they clicked the link which would spend an unnecessary click out of their life. <a href="/wiki/User:Tarlby" title="User:Tarlby"><span style="background-color:black;color:cyan;font-family:Comic Sans MS;"><i>Tarlby</i></span></a> <sup>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tarlby" title="User talk:Tarlby"><i>t</i></a>) (<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Tarlby" title="Special:Contributions/Tarlby"><i>c</i></a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Tarlby-20250203053900-SimpleSubCubicGraph-20250203052400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:39, 3 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tarlby-20250203053900-SimpleSubCubicGraph-20250203052400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tarlby-20250203053900-SimpleSubCubicGraph-20250203052400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SimpleSubCubicGraph-20250203054700-Tarlby-20250203053900"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Tarlby" title="User:Tarlby">Tarlby</a> then say "Internationally recognized Exclusive Economic Zone" <a href="/wiki/User:SimpleSubCubicGraph" title="User:SimpleSubCubicGraph">SimpleSubCubicGraph</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SimpleSubCubicGraph" title="User talk:SimpleSubCubicGraph">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-SimpleSubCubicGraph-20250203054700-Tarlby-20250203053900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:47, 3 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SimpleSubCubicGraph-20250203054700-Tarlby-20250203053900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SimpleSubCubicGraph-20250203054700-Tarlby-20250203053900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chipmunkdavis-20250203060300-SimpleSubCubicGraph-20250203054700"></span>What is in need of being clarified here, and does it matter at a 220px scale? <a href="/wiki/User:Chipmunkdavis" title="User:Chipmunkdavis">CMD</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chipmunkdavis" title="User talk:Chipmunkdavis">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Chipmunkdavis-20250203060300-SimpleSubCubicGraph-20250203054700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:03, 3 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chipmunkdavis-20250203060300-SimpleSubCubicGraph-20250203054700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chipmunkdavis-20250203060300-SimpleSubCubicGraph-20250203054700"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Musk_in_infobox?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Musk_in_infobox?-20250213224400"><span id="Musk_in_infobox.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Musk_in_infobox?-20250213224400"></span>Musk in infobox?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Musk_in_infobox?-20250213224400"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chetsford-20250213224400-Musk_in_infobox?"></span>A question for discussion: </p><p> Should Elon Musk be added to the infobox under <i>Government </i>in a position between the <i>President </i>and <i>VP </i>parameters? Our longstanding convention is to list both the titular and effective leaders of nations here, and we have not previously been shy about identifying those with informal but ultimate or penultimate power in the inboxes for other nation articles. As just one of many examples, in pre-2022 <a href="/wiki/Myanmar" title="Myanmar">Myanmar</a> we listed <a href="/wiki/Aung_San_Suu_Kyi" title="Aung San Suu Kyi">Aung San Suu Kyi</a> in her invented title of "State Counsellor" <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Myanmar&oldid=1003673853">[6]</a> below that of "President", as she was exercising significant executive functions on a <i>de facto</i> basis.</p><div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> <p>Given the unusually expansive role of Musk (today he hosted the President of India in the Dillon Room at <a href="/wiki/Blair_House" title="Blair House">Blair House</a>,<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/prime-minister-narendra-modi-in-us-children-in-tow-elon-musk-meets-pm-modi-in-washington-7704752">[7]</a> the head-of-state receiving room of a presidential residence, where they exchanged diplomatic gifts), he's held press conferences in the Oval Office, a recent lawsuit by California alleges he is effectively acting as a principal Officer of the United States,<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bonta-sues-trump-administration-challenging-elon-musk%E2%80%99s#:~:text=In%20his%20commanding%20of%20the,one%20that%20requires%20Senate%20confirmation">[8]</a> etc., he seems to be acting in a similar role to Aung, in that he may lack formal authority but is able to -- in practice -- discharge such a significant portion of the power of the United States that we may be doing our readers a disservice by not acknowledging his existence. </p> <p> I understand this may be an unusual suggestion and I present it only as a question for the community's feedback or discussion. <a href="/wiki/User:Chetsford" title="User:Chetsford">Chetsford</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chetsford" title="User talk:Chetsford">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Chetsford-20250213224400-Musk_in_infobox?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:44, 13 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chetsford-20250213224400-Musk_in_infobox?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chetsford-20250213224400-Musk_in_infobox?"></span> </p><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moxy-20250213225300-Chetsford-20250213224400"></span>Not mentioned in the article..... Best propose some text for the article then see if it's due weight by anyone. Cart before the horse here.... as the info box regurgitates the most important information from the article.<span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:-15deg;color:darkblue"><b><a href="/wiki/User:Moxy" title="User:Moxy">Moxy</a></b></span><span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:15deg;color:darkblue"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moxy" title="User talk:Moxy">🍁</a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Moxy-20250213225300-Chetsford-20250213224400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:53, 13 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moxy-20250213225300-Chetsford-20250213224400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moxy-20250213225300-Chetsford-20250213224400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chetsford-20250213230000-Moxy-20250213225300"></span>I'm not suggesting we add it to the Lead, which does require the content be duplicated in the body of the article. I'm suggesting we consider this only for the infobox, where the maxim is a lot more loose. In fact, Donald Trump himself is not currently mentioned in the body of the article (nor do we generally mention heads of state/government in nation articles), but we still list him in the infobox. The infobox is intended to contain comparative data points and content may not always be duplicated in the body (unlike <a href="/wiki/MOS:LEAD" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:LEAD">MOS:LEAD</a>). <a href="/wiki/User:Chetsford" title="User:Chetsford">Chetsford</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chetsford" title="User talk:Chetsford">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Chetsford-20250213230000-Moxy-20250213225300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:00, 13 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chetsford-20250213230000-Moxy-20250213225300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chetsford-20250213230000-Moxy-20250213225300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moxy-20250213231700-Chetsford-20250213230000"></span>Sorry I should have been more clear..... the position is not mentioned in the article unlike the others. We used to have the people mentioned in brackets but I see that's been removed from the body. As an outsider can you explain why this position warrants inclusion? <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:-15deg;color:darkblue"><b><a href="/wiki/User:Moxy" title="User:Moxy">Moxy</a></b></span><span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:15deg;color:darkblue"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moxy" title="User talk:Moxy">🍁</a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Moxy-20250213231700-Chetsford-20250213230000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:17, 13 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moxy-20250213231700-Chetsford-20250213230000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moxy-20250213231700-Chetsford-20250213230000"></span> <dl><dd><span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-added, #006400);"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chetsford-20250214000000-Moxy-20250213231700"></span>"Sorry I should have been more clear..... the position is not mentioned in the article unlike the others.</span> <i>Speaker</i> is not listed in the body of the article either, but it appears in the infobox. There are many infobox parameters we haven't customarily included in the body.</dd> <dd><span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-added, #006400);">"As an outsider can you explain why this position warrants inclusion?"</span> Our longstanding convention is to list both the titular and effective leaders of nations in the infobox, and we have not previously been shy about identifying those with informal but ultimate or penultimate power in the inboxes for other nation articles. As just one of many examples, in pre-2022 <a href="/wiki/Myanmar" title="Myanmar">Myanmar</a> we listed <a href="/wiki/Aung_San_Suu_Kyi" title="Aung San Suu Kyi">Aung San Suu Kyi</a> in her invented title of "State Counsellor" <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Myanmar&oldid=1003673853">[9]</a> below that of "President", as she was exercising significant executive functions on a <i>de facto</i> basis.<p>Given the unusually expansive role of Musk (today he hosted the President of India in the Dillon Room at <a href="/wiki/Blair_House" title="Blair House">Blair House</a>,<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/prime-minister-narendra-modi-in-us-children-in-tow-elon-musk-meets-pm-modi-in-washington-7704752">[10]</a> the head-of-state receiving room of a presidential residence, where they exchanged diplomatic gifts), he's held press conferences in the Oval Office, a recent lawsuit by California alleges he is effectively acting as a principal <a href="/wiki/Officer_of_the_United_States" title="Officer of the United States">Officer of the United States</a>,<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bonta-sues-trump-administration-challenging-elon-musk%E2%80%99s#:~:text=In%20his%20commanding%20of%20the,one%20that%20requires%20Senate%20confirmation">[11]</a> etc., he seems to be acting in a similar role to Aung, in that he may lack formal authority but is able to -- in practice -- discharge such a significant portion of the power of the United States that we may be doing our readers a disservice by not acknowledging his existence. <a href="/wiki/User:Chetsford" title="User:Chetsford">Chetsford</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chetsford" title="User talk:Chetsford">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Chetsford-20250214000000-Moxy-20250213231700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:00, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chetsford-20250214000000-Moxy-20250213231700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chetsford-20250214000000-Moxy-20250213231700"></span></p></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chetsford-20250214004100-Chetsford-20250213224400"></span>Éminence grise?</b> If we move forward with this a problem arises in that -- unlike Aung San Suu Kyi or Egon Krenz -- he does not actually appear to have any formal or even informal title. Would using the generic "<i>Éminence grise</i>" work for the parameter until a clearer term arises? I'd be concerned putting something like "Leader" would imply an official title. <a href="/wiki/User:Chetsford" title="User:Chetsford">Chetsford</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chetsford" title="User talk:Chetsford">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Chetsford-20250214004100-Chetsford-20250213224400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:41, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chetsford-20250214004100-Chetsford-20250213224400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chetsford-20250214004100-Chetsford-20250213224400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moxy-20250214005600-Chetsford-20250214004100"></span>Do we have some sort of source implying this is the fourth most important position in the government or that the <a href="/wiki/United_States_presidential_line_of_succession" title="United States presidential line of succession">United States presidential line of succession</a> has changed? <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:-15deg;color:darkblue"><b><a href="/wiki/User:Moxy" title="User:Moxy">Moxy</a></b></span><span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:15deg;color:darkblue"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moxy" title="User talk:Moxy">🍁</a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Moxy-20250214005600-Chetsford-20250214004100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:56, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moxy-20250214005600-Chetsford-20250214004100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moxy-20250214005600-Chetsford-20250214004100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chetsford-20250214011000-Moxy-20250214005600"></span>I'm sorry, Moxy, I'm not really following any of your questions. Can you explain to me the relevance of the U.S. presidential line of succession to infobox contents so I can try to respond? <a href="/wiki/User:Chetsford" title="User:Chetsford">Chetsford</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chetsford" title="User talk:Chetsford">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Chetsford-20250214011000-Moxy-20250214005600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:10, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chetsford-20250214011000-Moxy-20250214005600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chetsford-20250214011000-Moxy-20250214005600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moxy-20250214011700-Chetsford-20250214011000"></span>The infobox regurgitates information from the article itself ...... With the list of names that are normally included usually pertaining to the <a href="/wiki/Order_of_succession" title="Order of succession">Order of succession</a>. Most countries list three or perhaps four names..... based on their significance to the countries government as indicated in the article. You seem to be asking to list of random name in the infobox (that is an element of the lead) that we don't talk about in the article so it's hard to establish why it should be there. Is this new position so influential that we should mention it in the article.... and thus add It the lead infobox. <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:-15deg;color:darkblue"><b><a href="/wiki/User:Moxy" title="User:Moxy">Moxy</a></b></span><span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:15deg;color:darkblue"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moxy" title="User talk:Moxy">🍁</a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Moxy-20250214011700-Chetsford-20250214011000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:17, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moxy-20250214011700-Chetsford-20250214011000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moxy-20250214011700-Chetsford-20250214011000"></span> <dl><dd><span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-added, #006400);"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chetsford-20250214013600-Moxy-20250214011700"></span>"The infobox regurgitates information from the article itself"</span> Okay, so I've addressed this previously. The infobox does <i>not</i> uniformly regurgitate information from the article itself. You're thinking about <a href="/wiki/MOS:LEAD" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:LEAD">MOS:LEAD</a>. In point of fact, as I've noted, the Speaker of the House of Representatives is listed in the infobox, but is not mentioned in the article. Unlike the lead, the infobox exists for inter- versus intra-article comparative points.</dd> <dd><span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-added, #006400);">"With the list of names that are normally included usually pertaining to the Order of succession."</span> I don't know where you're getting your information from, Moxy, but almost all of it is inaccurate. Chief Justice of the United States is not in the U.S. order of succession but is in the infobox. President Pro Tempore ranks above Speaker but is not listed in the infobox. The President of the Chamber of Deputies of Mexico is not in the Mexican order of succession but is in the infobox. As noted, State Counsellor of Myanmar was not in the order of succession but was in the infobox. Across the entire project there is no correlation between order of succession and appearance of titles in nation infoboxes other than occasional and happenstance overlap. Perhaps if you can share where you're getting these notions from I can better address them? <a href="/wiki/User:Chetsford" title="User:Chetsford">Chetsford</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chetsford" title="User talk:Chetsford">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Chetsford-20250214013600-Moxy-20250214011700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:36, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chetsford-20250214013600-Moxy-20250214011700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chetsford-20250214013600-Moxy-20250214011700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moxy-20250214015700-Chetsford-20250214013600"></span>Pls review <a href="/wiki/MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE">MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE</a>.... If the speaker of the house is not mentioned in the article it should be removed. Need some sort of source to explain why this is an important position that merits inclusion in the lead. We don't randomly add things without sources.... this is pretty basic. <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:-15deg;color:darkblue"><b><a href="/wiki/User:Moxy" title="User:Moxy">Moxy</a></b></span><span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:15deg;color:darkblue"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moxy" title="User talk:Moxy">🍁</a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Moxy-20250214015700-Chetsford-20250214013600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:57, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moxy-20250214015700-Chetsford-20250214013600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moxy-20250214015700-Chetsford-20250214013600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chetsford-20250214022500-Moxy-20250214015700"></span>I think the source of your confusion may be that our guidelines for application of parameters in infoboxes aren't concisely centralized in a single location and are sometimes contradictory which, I admit, can be problematic. As per <a href="/wiki/MOS:IBX" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:IBX">MOS:IBX</a> <span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-added, #006400);">"although all information in an infobox ideally should also be found in the main body of an article, there isn't perfect compliance with this guideline"</span>. Per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ARBINFOBOX" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ARBINFOBOX">WP:ARBINFOBOX</a> determining which parameters to activate within an infobox <span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-added, #006400);">"is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article""</span>. So, while it may be a valid point to say that Musk should not be included because X, Y, or Z, it may be less valid to say we can't include him due to him not being mentioned in the body of the article on the imagined basis that such a convention exists, when it demonstrably -- as, indeed, I just demonstrated in the examples above -- does not. <a href="/wiki/User:Chetsford" title="User:Chetsford">Chetsford</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chetsford" title="User talk:Chetsford">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Chetsford-20250214022500-Moxy-20250214015700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:25, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chetsford-20250214022500-Moxy-20250214015700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chetsford-20250214022500-Moxy-20250214015700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moxy-20250214042500-Chetsford-20250214022500"></span>Simply not seeing how a link to the bio helps in the understanding of this country. <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:-15deg;color:darkblue"><b><a href="/wiki/User:Moxy" title="User:Moxy">Moxy</a></b></span><span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:15deg;color:darkblue"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moxy" title="User talk:Moxy">🍁</a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Moxy-20250214042500-Chetsford-20250214022500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:25, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moxy-20250214042500-Chetsford-20250214022500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moxy-20250214042500-Chetsford-20250214022500"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="RfC:_Is_Elon_Musk_a_principal_official_for_purposes_of_the_infobox?" data-mw-thread-id="h-RfC:_Is_Elon_Musk_a_principal_official_for_purposes_of_the_infobox?-20250214035000"><span id="RfC:_Is_Elon_Musk_a_principal_official_for_purposes_of_the_infobox.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-RfC:_Is_Elon_Musk_a_principal_official_for_purposes_of_the_infobox?-20250214035000"></span>RfC: Is Elon Musk a principal official for purposes of the infobox?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-RfC:_Is_Elon_Musk_a_principal_official_for_purposes_of_the_infobox?-20250214035000"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span id="rfc_515C000"></span><span id="rfctag"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chetsford-20250214035000-RfC:_Is_Elon_Musk_a_principal_official_for_purposes_of_the_infobox?"></span><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475" /></p><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Dialog-information_on.svg/40px-Dialog-information_on.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Dialog-information_on.svg/60px-Dialog-information_on.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Dialog-information_on.svg/80px-Dialog-information_on.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48" /></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><div class="wikipediauserbox" style="float:right;border:1px solid #a2a9b1;margin:1px;width:238px"><table role="presentation" style="border-collapse:collapse;width:238px;margin-bottom:0;margin-top:0;background:transparent;color:inherit"><tbody><tr><td style="border:0;width:45px;height:45px;background:transparent;text-align:center;font-size:14pt;font-weight:bold;color:var(--color-base, #202122);padding:0 1px 0 0;line-height:1.25em;vertical-align:middle"><span class="mw-default-size" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/Internet-group-chat.svg/48px-Internet-group-chat.svg.png" decoding="async" width="48" height="48" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/Internet-group-chat.svg/72px-Internet-group-chat.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/Internet-group-chat.svg/96px-Internet-group-chat.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48" /></span></span></td><td style="border:0;text-align:left;font-size:8pt;padding:0 4px 0 4px;height:45px;line-height:1.25em;color:var(--color-base, #202122);vertical-align:middle">Please consider joining the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Feedback_request_service" title="Wikipedia:Feedback request service">feedback request service</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></div><b>An editor has <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment" title="Wikipedia:Requests for comment">requested comments</a> from other editors for this discussion.</b> This page has been added to the following list: <ul><li><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Politics,_government,_and_law" title="Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Politics, government, and law">Politics, government, and law</a></b></li></ul> When discussion has <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment#Ending_RfCs" title="Wikipedia:Requests for comment">ended</a>, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.</td></tr></tbody></table> <p>Should Elon Musk's name and title or non-title be listed in some form (the details of which should be determined through a separate discussion) in the list of principal officials in the <i>Government</i> section of the infobox? </p> <dl><dd><b>A.</b> Yes</dd> <dd><b>B.</b> Yes, if a descriptive sentence exists in the body of the article</dd> <dd><b>C.</b> No</dd> <dd><b>D.</b> Other</dd></dl> <p><a href="/wiki/User:Chetsford" title="User:Chetsford">Chetsford</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chetsford" title="User talk:Chetsford">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Chetsford-20250214035000-RfC:_Is_Elon_Musk_a_principal_official_for_purposes_of_the_infobox?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:50, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chetsford-20250214035000-RfC:_Is_Elon_Musk_a_principal_official_for_purposes_of_the_infobox?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chetsford-20250214035000-RfC:_Is_Elon_Musk_a_principal_official_for_purposes_of_the_infobox?"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Survey" data-mw-thread-id="h-Survey-RfC:_Is_Elon_Musk_a_principal_official_for_purposes_of_the_infobox?-20250214035000"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Survey-RfC:_Is_Elon_Musk_a_principal_official_for_purposes_of_the_infobox?-20250214035000"></span>Survey<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Survey-RfC:_Is_Elon_Musk_a_principal_official_for_purposes_of_the_infobox?-20250214035000"></span></h3></div> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chetsford-20250214035000-Survey"></span>A, Yes</b> As an encyclopedia, we should depict reality as it exists, not merely repeat official documentation.<br />There is no guideline as to what specific officials are included in infoboxes on Nation articles and it is customary across the project to identify both titular <i>and customary/informal</i> state leaders in the rare cases where an informal leader wields "head-of-state analogous" power.<br /><small>(For example, we long included<a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Myanmar&oldid=1003673853">[12]</a> <a href="/wiki/Aung_San_Suu_Kyi" title="Aung San Suu Kyi">Aung San Suu Kyi</a> in her statutory position of <a href="/wiki/State_Counsellor_of_Myanmar" title="State Counsellor of Myanmar">State Counsellor of Myanmar</a>, in addition to the President of Myanmar, despite Counsellor having no succession role and virtually no formal authority; it was informally understood to be the penultimate post. Similar use has been done for party leaders in socialist states in situations where the party roles are bifurcated from the state apparatus [e.g. Egon Krenz]).</small></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><ul><li>Musk is, formally, a government official <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.npr.org/2025/02/13/nx-s1-5293124/special-government-employee-trump-musk-doge">[13]</a> so his status on that point is verifiable, the only question remaining is whether his specific status carries with it powers of sufficient primacy to warrant infobox inclusion.</li> <li>His significant executive power has been widely chronicled <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a>.<sup id="cite_ref-1" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-1"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>1<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup><sup id="cite_ref-2" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-2"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>2<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup><sup id="cite_ref-msnbc_3-0" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-msnbc-3"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>3<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup><sup id="cite_ref-4" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-4"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>4<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup><sup id="cite_ref-5" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-5"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>5<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup></li> <li>It is the official position of 14 of the U.S.' 50 constituent states that Musk enjoys <span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-added, #006400);">"limitless and unchecked power"</span> and the <span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-added, #006400);">"full power of the Executive Branch"</span>. <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://agportal-s3bucket.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/NM%20v.%20Elon%20Musk.pdf?VersionId=Ti2uA7qgF0cu8kydt9RS51Npmnn.t9qZ">[14]</a></li> <li>Moreover, the fact that this is "head-of-state analogous" power (albeit not authority) is evident by RS documenting him singularly receiving foreign heads of state in the Dillon Room (the head-of-state receiving room) at the <a href="/wiki/Blair_House" title="Blair House">Blair House</a> presidential residence and even exchanging diplomatic gifts;<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/us-news/elon-musk-greets-pm-modi-with-unique-gift-at-blair-house-internet-hints-at-what-it-was-101739468601200.html">[15]</a> co-hosting press conferences in the <a href="/wiki/Oval_Office" title="Oval Office">Oval Office</a>;<sup id="cite_ref-msnbc_3-1" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-msnbc-3"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>3<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> engaging in representational business with foreign ambassadors on behalf of the U.S.;<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0mzk7e31pjo">[16]</a> having a government residence <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://people.com/elon-musk-sleeping-office-floor-near-white-house-exclusive-11678717">[17]</a>, etc.</li></ul></dd></dl></dd> <dd>No body content is necessary as government posts are not routinely itemized in Nation articles as a precursor to simple parameter insertion in the infobox. <ins>Notably, Donald Trump, J.D. Vance, Mike Johnson, and John Roberts are all listed in the infobox but not mentioned in the body of the article. Nor is even the title of Speaker mentioned in the article, though it is included in the infobox.</ins> <a href="/wiki/User:Chetsford" title="User:Chetsford">Chetsford</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chetsford" title="User talk:Chetsford">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Chetsford-20250214035000-Survey" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:50, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a>; edited 13:08, 14 February 2025 (UTC)<span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chetsford-20250214035000-Survey"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chetsford-20250214035000-Survey"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dw31415-20250214091000-Chetsford-20250214035000"></span>- <b>C, No</b>. While the executive branch actions and court cases are very significant, it’s too early to mention musk on this page. <a href="/wiki/User:Dw31415" title="User:Dw31415">Dw31415</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dw31415" title="User talk:Dw31415">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Dw31415-20250214091000-Chetsford-20250214035000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:10, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a>; edited 13:08, 14 February 2025 (UTC)<span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dw31415-20250214091000-Chetsford-20250214035000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dw31415-20250214091000-Chetsford-20250214035000"></span></dd> <dd><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Malvoliox-20250214210000-Chetsford-20250214035000"></span>C</b> No. There isn't any clear consensus in reliable sources as to the level of power or nature of his role, and as such, it would qualify as <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR">WP:OR</a> to list him as proposed. <b><a href="/wiki/User:Malvoliox" title="User:Malvoliox"><span style="color: darkgreen">~Malvoliox</span></a></b> <i>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Malvoliox" title="User talk:Malvoliox">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Malvoliox" title="Special:Contributions/Malvoliox">contribs</a>)</i> 21:00, 14 February 2025 (UTC) <b><a href="/wiki/User:Malvoliox" title="User:Malvoliox"><span style="color: darkgreen">~Malvoliox</span></a></b> <i>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Malvoliox" title="User talk:Malvoliox">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Malvoliox" title="Special:Contributions/Malvoliox">contribs</a>)</i> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Malvoliox-20250214210000-Chetsford-20250214035000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:00, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Malvoliox-20250214210000-Chetsford-20250214035000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Malvoliox-20250214210000-Chetsford-20250214035000"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chipmunkdavis-20250214100700-Survey"></span>C</b>, at the moment it seems he is not even due weight in the body, let alone the infobox. <a href="/wiki/User:Chipmunkdavis" title="User:Chipmunkdavis">CMD</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chipmunkdavis" title="User talk:Chipmunkdavis">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Chipmunkdavis-20250214100700-Survey" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:07, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chipmunkdavis-20250214100700-Survey"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chipmunkdavis-20250214100700-Survey"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chetsford-20250214130300-Chipmunkdavis-20250214100700"></span>CMD - just a quick point of clarification for the benefit of the eventual closer ... is your position that Donald Trump should be removed from the infobox (he's also not mentioned in the body of the article, only in the infobox)? <a href="/wiki/User:Chetsford" title="User:Chetsford">Chetsford</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chetsford" title="User talk:Chetsford">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Chetsford-20250214130300-Chipmunkdavis-20250214100700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:03, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chetsford-20250214130300-Chipmunkdavis-20250214100700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chetsford-20250214130300-Chipmunkdavis-20250214100700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chipmunkdavis-20250214131100-Chetsford-20250214130300"></span>This is not a gotcha when there is a bullet point the size of two paragraphs about the President. <a href="/wiki/User:Chipmunkdavis" title="User:Chipmunkdavis">CMD</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chipmunkdavis" title="User talk:Chipmunkdavis">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Chipmunkdavis-20250214131100-Chetsford-20250214130300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:11, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chipmunkdavis-20250214131100-Chetsford-20250214130300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chipmunkdavis-20250214131100-Chetsford-20250214130300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chetsford-20250214131300-Chipmunkdavis-20250214131100"></span>Got it - thanks! So is your position B, then? That, if included in the body, then it's appropriate? <a href="/wiki/User:Chetsford" title="User:Chetsford">Chetsford</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chetsford" title="User talk:Chetsford">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Chetsford-20250214131300-Chipmunkdavis-20250214131100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:13, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chetsford-20250214131300-Chipmunkdavis-20250214131100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chetsford-20250214131300-Chipmunkdavis-20250214131100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chipmunkdavis-20250214133700-Chetsford-20250214131300"></span>Obviously not, a closer can read what I wrote. To answer the question in good faith, there hasn't been a discussion on the body as far as I have seen, and I'm not pre-empting it. <a href="/wiki/User:Chipmunkdavis" title="User:Chipmunkdavis">CMD</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chipmunkdavis" title="User talk:Chipmunkdavis">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Chipmunkdavis-20250214133700-Chetsford-20250214131300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:37, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chipmunkdavis-20250214133700-Chetsford-20250214131300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chipmunkdavis-20250214133700-Chetsford-20250214131300"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moxy-20250215023500-Chipmunkdavis-20250214100700"></span>- <b>C, No</b>..... Simply not seeing how a random link to this gentleman helps anyone in understanding of this country.<span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:-15deg;color:darkblue"><b><a href="/wiki/User:Moxy" title="User:Moxy">Moxy</a></b></span><span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:15deg;color:darkblue"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moxy" title="User talk:Moxy">🍁</a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Moxy-20250215023500-Chipmunkdavis-20250214100700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:35, 15 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moxy-20250215023500-Chipmunkdavis-20250214100700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moxy-20250215023500-Chipmunkdavis-20250214100700"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dhtwiki-20250215133600-Survey"></span>C</b> – We have been listing constitutionally specified officials in the infobox and leaving out other officials of informally established importance, such as the senate majority and minority leaders (see the talk page archives). The reality we depict is indeed dependent on documents and third party analysis of them. Musk is not a regular government official (see <a href="/wiki/Special_Government_employee" class="mw-redirect" title="Special Government employee">Special Government employee</a>); his power has been chronicled by outlets that are made overly excited by his presence; the lawsuit filed by 14 states is rife with lurid language and has not been adjudicated; and his symbolic presence and gestures have not been shown to be outside what is customary. Musk's influence has not been shown to be greater than that of other wealthy donors. <a href="/wiki/User:Dhtwiki" title="User:Dhtwiki">Dhtwiki</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dhtwiki" title="User talk:Dhtwiki">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Dhtwiki-20250215133600-Survey" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:36, 15 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dhtwiki-20250215133600-Survey"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dhtwiki-20250215133600-Survey"></span> <dl><dd><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maxeto0910-20250215215200-Dhtwiki-20250215133600"></span>C</b> – Per the arguments of Dhtwiki. <a href="/wiki/User:Maxeto0910" title="User:Maxeto0910">Maxeto0910</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maxeto0910" title="User talk:Maxeto0910">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Maxeto0910-20250215215200-Dhtwiki-20250215133600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:52, 15 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maxeto0910-20250215215200-Dhtwiki-20250215133600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maxeto0910-20250215215200-Dhtwiki-20250215133600"></span></dd></dl></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JacktheBrown-20250216214800-Survey"></span>A</b>, per <a href="/wiki/User:Chetsford" title="User:Chetsford">Chetsford</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:JacktheBrown" title="User:JacktheBrown">JacktheBrown</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JacktheBrown" title="User talk:JacktheBrown">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-JacktheBrown-20250216214800-Survey" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:48, 16 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JacktheBrown-20250216214800-Survey"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JacktheBrown-20250216214800-Survey"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-FMSky-20250217041100-Survey"></span>C</b>, only list the most important positions there --<a href="/wiki/User:FMSky" title="User:FMSky">FMSky</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:FMSky" title="User talk:FMSky">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-FMSky-20250217041100-Survey" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:11, 17 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-FMSky-20250217041100-Survey"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-FMSky-20250217041100-Survey"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chetsford-20250217042000-FMSky-20250217041100"></span>I agree. Which is why I'm !voting A. As widely documented by RS -- and is the official view of 14 states -- this is among the most important positions. <a href="/wiki/User:Chetsford" title="User:Chetsford">Chetsford</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chetsford" title="User talk:Chetsford">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Chetsford-20250217042000-FMSky-20250217041100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:20, 17 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chetsford-20250217042000-FMSky-20250217041100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chetsford-20250217042000-FMSky-20250217041100"></span></dd></dl></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-WhatamIdoing-20250219200200-Survey"></span>C</b>. The OP may be interested in the concept of a <a href="/wiki/%C3%89minence_grise" title="Éminence grise">Éminence grise</a> – someone whose influence and power far exceeds their nominal authority – and the most recent entry in the list of examples. (Also, <a href="/wiki/Principal_officer" class="mw-redirect" title="Principal officer">principal officer</a> needs to be re-pointed to something more generic.) <a href="/wiki/User:WhatamIdoing" title="User:WhatamIdoing">WhatamIdoing</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WhatamIdoing" title="User talk:WhatamIdoing">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-WhatamIdoing-20250219200200-Survey" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:02, 19 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-WhatamIdoing-20250219200200-Survey"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-WhatamIdoing-20250219200200-Survey"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SarekOfVulcan-20250221175900-Survey"></span>C</b>. He's a presidential advisor who's been given too much power, not an officer of the government. --<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SarekOfVulcan" title="User talk:SarekOfVulcan"><span class="gfSarekSig">SarekOfVulcan (talk)</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-SarekOfVulcan-20250221175900-Survey" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:59, 21 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SarekOfVulcan-20250221175900-Survey"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SarekOfVulcan-20250221175900-Survey"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Goldsztajn-20250226062300-Survey"></span>C</b> Heads of the three branches of govt (including the VP, since they are president of the senate) is sufficient. Regards, --<a href="/wiki/User:Goldsztajn" title="User:Goldsztajn">Goldsztajn</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Goldsztajn" title="User talk:Goldsztajn">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Goldsztajn-20250226062300-Survey" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:23, 26 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Goldsztajn-20250226062300-Survey"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Goldsztajn-20250226062300-Survey"></span></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Yovt-20250227212400-Survey"></span>D: only include in body. <a href="/wiki/User:Yovt" title="User:Yovt">𝚈𝚘𝚟𝚝</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Yovt" title="User talk:Yovt">𝚝𝚊𝚕𝚔𝚟𝚝</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Yovt-20250227212400-Survey" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:24, 27 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Yovt-20250227212400-Survey"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Yovt-20250227212400-Survey"></span></li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Discussion" data-mw-thread-id="h-Discussion-RfC:_Is_Elon_Musk_a_principal_official_for_purposes_of_the_infobox?-20250214041100"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Discussion-RfC:_Is_Elon_Musk_a_principal_official_for_purposes_of_the_infobox?-20250214041100"></span>Discussion<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Discussion-RfC:_Is_Elon_Musk_a_principal_official_for_purposes_of_the_infobox?-20250214041100"></span></h3></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moxy-20250214041100-Discussion"></span>So after a <b>2 hour talk with one editor</b> a junp to an RFC dispite what is recommended at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RFC#BEFORE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RFC">WP:RFC#BEFORE</a>. I agree that between the <b>2 of us</b> there is no consensus to add a random name with zero context in the article to the infobox. Your argument is based on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS">WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS</a> and an assertion that this merits an exception to the norm for these types of articles without any sources presented before or others input.<span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:-15deg;color:darkblue"><b><a href="/wiki/User:Moxy" title="User:Moxy">Moxy</a></b></span><span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:15deg;color:darkblue"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moxy" title="User talk:Moxy">🍁</a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Moxy-20250214041100-Discussion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:11, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moxy-20250214041100-Discussion"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moxy-20250214041100-Discussion"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-added, #006400);"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chetsford-20250214041600-Moxy-20250214041100"></span>"a random name"</span> I don't think this is a GF description of the question, with all due respect. <span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-added, #006400);">"zero context"</span> I don't think this is a GF description of my thoroughly explained and sourced position. Don't you agree? I'm sure you do. <a href="/wiki/User:Chetsford" title="User:Chetsford">Chetsford</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chetsford" title="User talk:Chetsford">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Chetsford-20250214041600-Moxy-20250214041100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:16, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chetsford-20250214041600-Moxy-20250214041100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chetsford-20250214041600-Moxy-20250214041100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moxy-20250214041900-Chetsford-20250214041600"></span>Yes as seen above.....good luck. <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:-15deg;color:darkblue"><b><a href="/wiki/User:Moxy" title="User:Moxy">Moxy</a></b></span><span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:15deg;color:darkblue"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moxy" title="User talk:Moxy">🍁</a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Moxy-20250214041900-Chetsford-20250214041600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:19, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moxy-20250214041900-Chetsford-20250214041600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moxy-20250214041900-Chetsford-20250214041600"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/User:Dw31415" title="User:Dw31415"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chetsford-20250214131400-Moxy-20250214041100"></span>DW31415</a> - with regard to your !vote, can you clarify <i>why</i> it's too early and what threshold of earliness you're applying (i.e. what period of time needs to pass before it's not "too early")? <a href="/wiki/User:Chetsford" title="User:Chetsford">Chetsford</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chetsford" title="User talk:Chetsford">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Chetsford-20250214131400-Moxy-20250214041100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:14, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chetsford-20250214131400-Moxy-20250214041100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chetsford-20250214131400-Moxy-20250214041100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dw31415-20250214135500-Chetsford-20250214131400"></span>Thanks for requesting clarification. I mean that the current facts and reliable sources don’t warrant Musk’s inclusion on this page. Hypothetically, that might change, in my opinion, if more reliable sources were to name him as a shadow president or something similar. I think there is more to be written about Musk, DOGE and the current situation, for example at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Constitutional_crisis#Actions_taken_during_President_Trump's_Second_Term" title="Talk:Constitutional crisis">Talk:Constitutional crisis#Actions taken during President Trump's Second Term</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Dw31415" title="User:Dw31415">Dw31415</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dw31415" title="User talk:Dw31415">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Dw31415-20250214135500-Chetsford-20250214131400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:55, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dw31415-20250214135500-Chetsford-20250214131400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dw31415-20250214135500-Chetsford-20250214131400"></span></dd></dl></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chetsford-20250215172000-Dw31415-20250214135500"></span>Makes sense - thank you! <a href="/wiki/User:Chetsford" title="User:Chetsford">Chetsford</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chetsford" title="User talk:Chetsford">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Chetsford-20250215172000-Dw31415-20250214135500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:20, 15 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chetsford-20250215172000-Dw31415-20250214135500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chetsford-20250215172000-Dw31415-20250214135500"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/User:Chipmunkdavis" title="User:Chipmunkdavis"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chetsford-20250214204400-Moxy-20250214041100"></span>Chipmunkdavis</a> - I'm having a little difficulty understanding your line of thought. You said Musk should not be included because it is required one be listed in the body for inclusion in the infobox. But when asked if adding content to the body would ameliorate your concern, you also seemed to indicate it would not. Would it be safe to say there is no situation, short of Musk being elected Vice-President or Speaker (neither of which are mentioned in the body of the article but are not included in the infobox), that you think Musk should be included as a primary government official for infobox purposes? <a href="/wiki/User:Chetsford" title="User:Chetsford">Chetsford</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chetsford" title="User talk:Chetsford">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Chetsford-20250214204400-Moxy-20250214041100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:44, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chetsford-20250214204400-Moxy-20250214041100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chetsford-20250214204400-Moxy-20250214041100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chipmunkdavis-20250215022900-Chetsford-20250214204400"></span>Please stop making up positions and attributing them to me. My last message already answered this question. <a href="/wiki/User:Chipmunkdavis" title="User:Chipmunkdavis">CMD</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chipmunkdavis" title="User talk:Chipmunkdavis">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Chipmunkdavis-20250215022900-Chetsford-20250214204400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:29, 15 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chipmunkdavis-20250215022900-Chetsford-20250214204400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chipmunkdavis-20250215022900-Chetsford-20250214204400"></span></dd></dl></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chetsford-20250215171800-Chipmunkdavis-20250215022900"></span>I'm sorry if I've upset you, <a href="/wiki/User:Chipmunkdavis" title="User:Chipmunkdavis">CMD</a>. It was not my intention. <a href="/wiki/User:Chetsford" title="User:Chetsford">Chetsford</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chetsford" title="User talk:Chetsford">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Chetsford-20250215171800-Chipmunkdavis-20250215022900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:18, 15 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chetsford-20250215171800-Chipmunkdavis-20250215022900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chetsford-20250215171800-Chipmunkdavis-20250215022900"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="References" data-mw-thread-id="h-References-RfC:_Is_Elon_Musk_a_principal_official_for_purposes_of_the_infobox?"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-References-RfC:_Is_Elon_Musk_a_principal_official_for_purposes_of_the_infobox?"></span>References<span data-mw-comment-end="h-References-RfC:_Is_Elon_Musk_a_principal_official_for_purposes_of_the_infobox?"></span></h3></div> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1232521257">.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk{margin:auto 0;border:1px dashed var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:4px;padding-left:1em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk-title{font-weight:bold}</style><div class="reflist-talk"> <p class="reflist-talk-title">References</p> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1239543626">.mw-parser-output .reflist{margin-bottom:0.5em;list-style-type:decimal}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .reflist{font-size:90%}}.mw-parser-output .reflist .references{font-size:100%;margin-bottom:0;list-style-type:inherit}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-2{column-width:30em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-3{column-width:25em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns{margin-top:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns ol{margin-top:0}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns li{page-break-inside:avoid;break-inside:avoid-column}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-alpha{list-style-type:upper-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-roman{list-style-type:upper-roman}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-alpha{list-style-type:lower-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-greek{list-style-type:lower-greek}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-roman{list-style-type:lower-roman}</style><div class="reflist"> <div class="mw-references-wrap"><ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-1"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-1">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222" /><cite class="citation news cs1"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20241219-president-musk-makes-his-presence-felt-in-washington">"<span class="cs1-kern-left"></span>'President Musk' makes his presence felt in Washington"</a>. <i><a href="/wiki/France24" class="mw-redirect" title="France24">France24</a></i>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=France24&rft.atitle=%27President+Musk%27+makes+his+presence+felt+in+Washington&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.france24.com%2Fen%2Flive-news%2F20241219-president-musk-makes-his-presence-felt-in-washington&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AUnited+States" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-2"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-2">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222" /><cite class="citation news cs1"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://apnews.com/article/elon-musk-donald-trump-doge-21153a742fbad86284369bb173ec343c">"Elon Musk tightens grip on federal government"</a>. <i><a href="/wiki/Associated_Press" title="Associated Press">Associated Press</a></i>. February 4, 2025<span class="reference-accessdate">. Retrieved <span class="nowrap">February 13,</span> 2025</span>. <q>Elon Musk is rapidly consolidating control over large swaths of the federal government with President Donald Trump 's blessing, sidelining career officials, gaining access to sensitive databases and dismantling a leading source of humanitarian assistance. The speed and scope of his work has been nothing short of stunning. In a little more than two weeks since Trump took office, the world's richest man has created an alternative power structure inside the federal government ...</q></cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=Associated+Press&rft.atitle=Elon+Musk+tightens+grip+on+federal+government&rft.date=2025-02-04&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fapnews.com%2Farticle%2Felon-musk-donald-trump-doge-21153a742fbad86284369bb173ec343c&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AUnited+States" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-msnbc-3"><span class="mw-cite-backlink">^ <a href="#cite_ref-msnbc_3-0"><sup><i><b>a</b></i></sup></a> <a href="#cite_ref-msnbc_3-1"><sup><i><b>b</b></i></sup></a></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222" /><cite class="citation news cs1"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/never-seen-anything-like-this-musk-has-been-empowered-to-be-virtual-prime-minister/vi-AA1yUyvm?ocid=skydhp#details">"Musk has been empowered to be 'virtual prime minister'<span class="cs1-kern-right"></span>"</a>. <i><a href="/wiki/MSNBC" title="MSNBC">MSNBC</a></i>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=MSNBC&rft.atitle=Musk+has+been+empowered+to+be+%27virtual+prime+minister%27&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.msn.com%2Fen-us%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2Fnever-seen-anything-like-this-musk-has-been-empowered-to-be-virtual-prime-minister%2Fvi-AA1yUyvm%3Focid%3Dskydhp%23details&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AUnited+States" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-4"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-4">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222" /><cite class="citation news cs1"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/12/19/co-president-elon-musk-trump-ally-tests-influence-spending-fight/">"<span class="cs1-kern-left"></span>'Co-president' Elon Musk? Trump ally tests influence in spending fight"</a>. <i><a href="/wiki/Washington_Post" class="mw-redirect" title="Washington Post">Washington Post</a></i>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=Washington+Post&rft.atitle=%E2%80%98Co-president%E2%80%99+Elon+Musk%3F+Trump+ally+tests+influence+in+spending+fight&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fpolitics%2F2024%2F12%2F19%2Fco-president-elon-musk-trump-ally-tests-influence-spending-fight%2F&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AUnited+States" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-5"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-5">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222" /><cite class="citation news cs1"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/03/us/politics/musk-federal-government.html">"Inside Musk's Aggressive Incursion Into the Federal Government"</a>. <i><a href="/wiki/New_York_Times" class="mw-redirect" title="New York Times">New York Times</a></i>. <q>He is shaping not just policy but personnel decisions, including successfully pushing for Mr. Trump to pick Troy Meink as the Air Force secretary, according to three people with direct knowledge of his role.</q></cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=New+York+Times&rft.atitle=Inside+Musk%E2%80%99s+Aggressive+Incursion+Into+the+Federal+Government&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2025%2F02%2F03%2Fus%2Fpolitics%2Fmusk-federal-government.html&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AUnited+States" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> </ol></div></div> </div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="First_paragraph_too_detailed" data-mw-thread-id="h-First_paragraph_too_detailed-20250220003800"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-First_paragraph_too_detailed-20250220003800"></span>First paragraph too detailed<span data-mw-comment-end="h-First_paragraph_too_detailed-20250220003800"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maxeto0910-20250220003800-First_paragraph_too_detailed"></span>The first paragraph of the lead has become too detailed in the last few days, which also makes it too long considering it is supposed to be a brief introduction to the country containing only the most basic information. Thereore, I suggest trimming it down a bit; ideas can be collected and discussed in this thread. A start could be the removal of "[...] the latter legally classified as "domestic dependent nations" with tribal sovereignty rights" as this part doesn't appear to be necessary for a basic understanding of the U.S. and can be explained in detail in the geography section. <a href="/wiki/User:Maxeto0910" title="User:Maxeto0910">Maxeto0910</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maxeto0910" title="User talk:Maxeto0910">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Maxeto0910-20250220003800-First_paragraph_too_detailed" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:38, 20 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maxeto0910-20250220003800-First_paragraph_too_detailed"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maxeto0910-20250220003800-First_paragraph_too_detailed"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maxeto0910-20250220004600-Maxeto0910-20250220003800"></span>Also, the sentence "The U.S. asserts sovereignty over five major island territories and various uninhabited islands." could perhaps be merged with the sentence "It is a federal republic of 50 states and Washington, D.C. as its federal capital district."; i.e., "It is a federal republic of 50 states, its federal capital district of Washington, D.C., five major island territories, and various uninhabited islands." <a href="/wiki/User:Maxeto0910" title="User:Maxeto0910">Maxeto0910</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maxeto0910" title="User talk:Maxeto0910">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Maxeto0910-20250220004600-Maxeto0910-20250220003800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:46, 20 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maxeto0910-20250220004600-Maxeto0910-20250220003800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maxeto0910-20250220004600-Maxeto0910-20250220003800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maxeto0910-20250220013000-Maxeto0910-20250220004600"></span>I just saw that it has been trimmed down a bit now to an extent which is more or less tolerable. Nonetheless, new input for trimming the first paragraph (or the lead in general) down further are still welcome. <a href="/wiki/User:Maxeto0910" title="User:Maxeto0910">Maxeto0910</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maxeto0910" title="User talk:Maxeto0910">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Maxeto0910-20250220013000-Maxeto0910-20250220004600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:30, 20 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maxeto0910-20250220013000-Maxeto0910-20250220004600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maxeto0910-20250220013000-Maxeto0910-20250220004600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moxy-20250220014400-Maxeto0910-20250220013000"></span>You're doing a great job keep it up. <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:-15deg;color:darkblue"><b><a href="/wiki/User:Moxy" title="User:Moxy">Moxy</a></b></span><span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:15deg;color:darkblue"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moxy" title="User talk:Moxy">🍁</a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Moxy-20250220014400-Maxeto0910-20250220013000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:44, 20 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moxy-20250220014400-Maxeto0910-20250220013000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moxy-20250220014400-Maxeto0910-20250220013000"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Yovt-20250220014500-Maxeto0910-20250220003800"></span>I would suggest trimming down information of the tribal and indian reservation information which reads: <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1248585704">@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{font-family:Georgia,"DejaVu Serif",serif;color:#008560;quotes:none}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-italic{font-family:inherit;font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-marks{quotes:"\"""\""}</style><q class="inline-quote-talk">Over 574 federally recognized tribal governments and 326 Indian reservations are legally classified as domestic dependent nations with tribal sovereignty rights.</q>; we don't even have the second-largest Exclusive Economic Zone status in there, which should be restored. <a href="/wiki/User:Yovt" title="User:Yovt">𝚈𝚘𝚟𝚝</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Yovt" title="User talk:Yovt">𝚝𝚊𝚕𝚔𝚟𝚝</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Yovt-20250220014500-Maxeto0910-20250220003800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:45, 20 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Yovt-20250220014500-Maxeto0910-20250220003800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Yovt-20250220014500-Maxeto0910-20250220003800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moxy-20250220015500-Yovt-20250220014500"></span>Exclusive Economic Zone is an obscure zoning that isn't talked about very much when it comes to countries overall. Simply not something that's discussed in summary articles beyond a sentence in some odd cases..... Simply not lead worthy. <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:-15deg;color:darkblue"><b><a href="/wiki/User:Moxy" title="User:Moxy">Moxy</a></b></span><span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:15deg;color:darkblue"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Moxy" title="User talk:Moxy">🍁</a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Moxy-20250220015500-Yovt-20250220014500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:55, 20 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moxy-20250220015500-Yovt-20250220014500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moxy-20250220015500-Yovt-20250220014500"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mason.Jones-20250220021300-Yovt-20250220014500"></span>Sorry, I will disagree with any contemplated dumb-downs of the current lead. The first paragraph rightly describes the U.S. as a large union of states with additional territories, plus a full mention about the Native American tribes and their status. A complicated federal republic, and the details should be there. I agree with Moxy that the U.S. "exclusive economic zone" is a minor factoid and doesn't belong anywhere near the lead. The Indian nations, however, definitely do. <a href="/wiki/User:Mason.Jones" title="User:Mason.Jones">Mason.Jones</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mason.Jones" title="User talk:Mason.Jones">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Mason.Jones-20250220021300-Yovt-20250220014500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:13, 20 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mason.Jones-20250220021300-Yovt-20250220014500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mason.Jones-20250220021300-Yovt-20250220014500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chipmunkdavis-20250220052500-Mason.Jones-20250220021300"></span>The Indian nations have been given as much space in the lead as they have in the body. <a href="/wiki/User:Chipmunkdavis" title="User:Chipmunkdavis">CMD</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chipmunkdavis" title="User talk:Chipmunkdavis">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Chipmunkdavis-20250220052500-Mason.Jones-20250220021300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:25, 20 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chipmunkdavis-20250220052500-Mason.Jones-20250220021300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chipmunkdavis-20250220052500-Mason.Jones-20250220021300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maxeto0910-20250220154200-Chipmunkdavis-20250220052500"></span>Exactly. Such a deep level of detail is really not necessary or appropriate for a basic introduction to the country. Merely mentioning them is probably fine, but anything more goes beyond the scope, at least in my opinion, and belongs in the body. <a href="/wiki/User:Maxeto0910" title="User:Maxeto0910">Maxeto0910</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maxeto0910" title="User talk:Maxeto0910">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Maxeto0910-20250220154200-Chipmunkdavis-20250220052500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:42, 20 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maxeto0910-20250220154200-Chipmunkdavis-20250220052500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maxeto0910-20250220154200-Chipmunkdavis-20250220052500"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maxeto0910-20250220054200-Mason.Jones-20250220021300"></span>I don't have any major objection against including the Indian nations in the lead (though I'd probably prefer to leave them out or have them in an efn); however, I don't think we have to explain their legal status in this detail, as this can be done in the article body without losing any relevant information. This is not a "dumb-down", as there is no oversimplification happening. Just write that they are within the U.S., e.g.:<br /><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704" /><q class="inline-quote-talk">The United States of America (USA), also known as the United States (U.S.) or America, is a country primarily located in North America. It is a federal republic of 50 states, its federal capital district of Washington, D.C., five major island territories, and various uninhabited islands. The 48 contiguous states border Canada to the north and Mexico to the south, with the semi-exclavic state of Alaska in the northwest and the archipelagic state of Hawaii in the Pacific Ocean. Within the U.S. are 574 federally recognized tribal governments and 326 Indian reservations. It is a megadiverse country, with the world's third-largest land area and third-largest population, exceeding 340 million.</q> <a href="/wiki/User:Maxeto0910" title="User:Maxeto0910">Maxeto0910</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maxeto0910" title="User talk:Maxeto0910">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Maxeto0910-20250220054200-Mason.Jones-20250220021300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:42, 20 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maxeto0910-20250220054200-Mason.Jones-20250220021300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maxeto0910-20250220054200-Mason.Jones-20250220021300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mason.Jones-20250220164700-Maxeto0910-20250220054200"></span>CMD writes: <i>"Indian nations have been given as much space in the lead as they have in the body."</i> Totally irrelevant as far as I'm concerned, as I think the body text should be expanded. As for the current lede sentence (it's only ONE SENTENCE), readers are often very curious about the Native American tribes and their status. And re an EFN: these should be reserved for expanding details like measurements, legalese, and such, not to hide away primary information about Indian reservations. I really wonder why some here wish to turn an article for adults into a reference work for children. <a href="/wiki/User:Mason.Jones" title="User:Mason.Jones">Mason.Jones</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mason.Jones" title="User talk:Mason.Jones">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Mason.Jones-20250220164700-Maxeto0910-20250220054200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:47, 20 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mason.Jones-20250220164700-Maxeto0910-20250220054200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mason.Jones-20250220164700-Maxeto0910-20250220054200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maxeto0910-20250220172100-Mason.Jones-20250220164700"></span>If readers are curious about them, we have an entire article dedicated to them which they can read. This article is about the U.S., and its lead should focus only on the most important and basic information necessary for readers to know about the United States; i.e., mentioning other things for context is fine, but explaining them in detail is usually not, at least not in the lead. Removing things that distract from the main topic and instead focusing on the essential information has nothing to do with creating a "reference work for children" but rather keeping the lead concise and focused. It's actually quite the opposite of that, because we assume that our readers know that we have separate articles containing this information which they can read, instead of bloating the already too long lead only for the sake of easier access to this information. <a href="/wiki/User:Maxeto0910" title="User:Maxeto0910">Maxeto0910</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maxeto0910" title="User talk:Maxeto0910">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Maxeto0910-20250220172100-Mason.Jones-20250220164700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:21, 20 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maxeto0910-20250220172100-Mason.Jones-20250220164700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maxeto0910-20250220172100-Mason.Jones-20250220164700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mason.Jones-20250220180400-Maxeto0910-20250220172100"></span>"Focused and concise" or embarrassingly simplistic? Much of it read like a 7th-grade book report, with passive verbs and a lower vocabulary register: "There are 50 states and a capital. It has 340 million people. There are five territories. The largest city is New York." Much of that info the average U.S. middle schooler already knew. When compared to many other country articles in English Wikipedia, this lead didn't come off well at all. Recent changes are a vast improvement. <a href="/wiki/User:Mason.Jones" title="User:Mason.Jones">Mason.Jones</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mason.Jones" title="User talk:Mason.Jones">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Mason.Jones-20250220180400-Maxeto0910-20250220172100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:04, 20 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mason.Jones-20250220180400-Maxeto0910-20250220172100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mason.Jones-20250220180400-Maxeto0910-20250220172100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maxeto0910-20250220200400-Mason.Jones-20250220180400"></span>I'm not sure what you're referring to; older article versions didn't have a wording like that, perhaps aside from some quickly reverted drive-by edits. Also, I am not opposing a "professional" or "complex" writing style and instead advocating for some kind of "simple English" writing style as you're implying. What I am opposing is an unnecessarily long and overly detailed lead section because that's exactly what a lead is not supposed to be as it should merely summarize the most notable key aspects of the article. And the current one appears to be one that needs trimming, at least from my POV. All featured and good country articles have lead sections which are way more focused and concise, and, as a result, shorter than this one (except possibly India's, but that article has its own history of complains about it). <a href="/wiki/User:Maxeto0910" title="User:Maxeto0910">Maxeto0910</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maxeto0910" title="User talk:Maxeto0910">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Maxeto0910-20250220200400-Mason.Jones-20250220180400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:04, 20 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maxeto0910-20250220200400-Mason.Jones-20250220180400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maxeto0910-20250220200400-Mason.Jones-20250220180400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Yovt-20250220202300-Maxeto0910-20250220200400"></span><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704" /><q class="inline-quote-talk">Also, I am [...] instead advocating for some kind of "simple English" writing style</q></dd> <dd>This is reminiscent of the <a href="/wiki/Simple_English_Wikipedia" title="Simple English Wikipedia">Simple English Wikipedia</a> article <a href="https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States" class="extiw" title="simple:United States">for the United States</a>. The <a class="external text" href="https://simple.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States&oldid=10078946">current version</a> is:</dd> <dd>The <b>United States of America</b>, commonly known as simply the <b>United States</b> or <b>America</b>, is a <a href="/wiki/Sovereign_state" title="Sovereign state">sovereign country</a> mostly in <a href="/wiki/North_America" title="North America">North America</a>. It is divided into <a href="/wiki/U.S._state" title="U.S. state">50 states</a>. <a href="/wiki/Contiguous_United_States" title="Contiguous United States">48 of these states</a> and the <a href="/wiki/Washington,_D.C." title="Washington, D.C.">District of Columbia</a> border each other between the <a href="/wiki/Pacific_Ocean" title="Pacific Ocean">Pacific</a> and <a href="/wiki/Atlantic_Ocean" title="Atlantic Ocean">Atlantic Oceans</a>. They are <a href="/wiki/Borders_of_the_United_States" title="Borders of the United States">bordered</a> by <a href="/wiki/Canada" title="Canada">Canada</a> to the north and <a href="/wiki/Mexico" title="Mexico">Mexico</a> to the south. The state of <a href="/wiki/Alaska" title="Alaska">Alaska</a> is in the northwestern area of the continent and is separated from the other 48 states by Canada making it an <a href="/wiki/Exclave" class="mw-redirect" title="Exclave">exclave</a>. Alaska is bordered by Canada to its east. The state of <a href="/wiki/Hawaii" title="Hawaii">Hawaii</a> is a <a href="/wiki/Archipelago" title="Archipelago">set of islands</a> in the Pacific located within <a href="/wiki/Polynesia" title="Polynesia">Polynesia</a> and is about 2,200 miles (3,500 kilometers) from the mainland. The country also possesses <a href="/wiki/Territories_of_the_United_States" title="Territories of the United States">territories</a>, and <a href="/wiki/Insular_area" title="Insular area">insular areas</a>, in the <a href="/wiki/Caribbean" title="Caribbean">Caribbean</a> and Pacific. The capital city is <a href="/wiki/Washington,_D.C." title="Washington, D.C.">Washington, D.C</a> and the largest city by population is <a href="/wiki/New_York_City" title="New York City">New York City</a> with a population of 8.8 million people. With a population of 331 million people and an area of 3.79 million square miles (9.83 million km<sup>2</sup>), the United States is the third most populated country in the world and the <a href="/wiki/List_of_countries_by_area" class="mw-redirect" title="List of countries by area">fourth-largest</a> country in the world by total area. <a href="/wiki/User:Yovt" title="User:Yovt">𝚈𝚘𝚟𝚝</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Yovt" title="User talk:Yovt">𝚝𝚊𝚕𝚔𝚟𝚝</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Yovt-20250220202300-Maxeto0910-20250220200400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:23, 20 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Yovt-20250220202300-Maxeto0910-20250220200400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Yovt-20250220202300-Maxeto0910-20250220200400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maxeto0910-20250220210000-Yovt-20250220202300"></span>I wrote that I am <b>not</b> advocating a simple English writing style. I'm fine with using a complex writing style as long as it's not unnecessarily long and overly detailed, aspects which primarily concern content instead of language. <a href="/wiki/User:Maxeto0910" title="User:Maxeto0910">Maxeto0910</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maxeto0910" title="User talk:Maxeto0910">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Maxeto0910-20250220210000-Yovt-20250220202300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:00, 20 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maxeto0910-20250220210000-Yovt-20250220202300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maxeto0910-20250220210000-Yovt-20250220202300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mason.Jones-20250220221400-Maxeto0910-20250220210000"></span>Good to hear, but this article has a bad habit of doing just the opposite: devolving into lowest-common-denominator language and information. Readers are carried off to ever more WP links "so they can look things up themselves", making for an even bigger sea of blue. We never come anywhere close to "Good Article" status, and probably can't. <a href="/wiki/User:Mason.Jones" title="User:Mason.Jones">Mason.Jones</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mason.Jones" title="User talk:Mason.Jones">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Mason.Jones-20250220221400-Maxeto0910-20250220210000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:14, 20 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mason.Jones-20250220221400-Maxeto0910-20250220210000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mason.Jones-20250220221400-Maxeto0910-20250220210000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maxeto0910-20250220234500-Mason.Jones-20250220221400"></span>Sure. In country articles, we always have to find a balance between a tolerable article length and detail, and a tolerable amount of links to child articles. Both is extremely hard for the U.S. because a continent-sized superpower with hundreds of millions of inhabitants has both a lot of child articles to link to and a lot to write about. However, looking at some good and featured country articles, many of them actually do have a considerable amount of links as well but are way shorter in comparison, suggesting we should probably focus on trimming this article if we want to come closer to good article status. This article has a high density of sources of mostly acceptable quality, the majority of its information is more or less up to date, and it is not too badly written overall in my opinion. It's just very bloated in its current state, and we should move some of its content to sub-articles. <a href="/wiki/User:Maxeto0910" title="User:Maxeto0910">Maxeto0910</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maxeto0910" title="User talk:Maxeto0910">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Maxeto0910-20250220234500-Mason.Jones-20250220221400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:45, 20 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maxeto0910-20250220234500-Mason.Jones-20250220221400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maxeto0910-20250220234500-Mason.Jones-20250220221400"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mason.Jones-20250221162200-Maxeto0910-20250220172100"></span>@ Maxeto0910: Not long ago, a few editors attempted to "cut some of the bloat" from this article. But rather than judiciously thinking through things, they excised massive text blocks that included some excellent material (while inserting weak verbs, conversational syntax, and lower-register vocabulary right out of the Simple English edition). I hope we can avoid future disasters like that. Yes, some of this article's text is overwritten and could be <i>thoughtfully</i> reviewed. No, the current lead paragraph, with details regarding the U.S. administrative state, is not "bloated". It reflects the complicated U.S. federal republic of states, territories, and Native American nations. The U.S. is not Germany and it's not Switzerland; this info is essential and should not be relegated to "backwater" text and editorial footnoting. <a href="/wiki/User:Mason.Jones" title="User:Mason.Jones">Mason.Jones</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mason.Jones" title="User talk:Mason.Jones">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Mason.Jones-20250221162200-Maxeto0910-20250220172100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:22, 21 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mason.Jones-20250221162200-Maxeto0910-20250220172100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mason.Jones-20250221162200-Maxeto0910-20250220172100"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="English_the_Official_language?" data-mw-thread-id="h-English_the_Official_language?-20250228150900"><span id="English_the_Official_language.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-English_the_Official_language?-20250228150900"></span>English the Official language?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-English_the_Official_language?-20250228150900"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Aviationlover1-20250228150900-English_the_Official_language?"></span>President Trump plans to sign an Executive Order to make English the official language of the United States </p><p><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.cnbc.com/2025/02/28/trump-english-official-language-order.html">https://www.cnbc.com/2025/02/28/trump-english-official-language-order.html</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Aviationlover1" title="User:Aviationlover1">Aviationlover1</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Aviationlover1" title="User talk:Aviationlover1">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Aviationlover1-20250228150900-English_the_Official_language?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:09, 28 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Aviationlover1-20250228150900-English_the_Official_language?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Aviationlover1-20250228150900-English_the_Official_language?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mason.Jones-20250228161000-Aviationlover1-20250228150900"></span>It's a total overreach to specify English as the country's official language based on one U.S. president's executive order. Only the U.S. Congress, with majority votes, can declare English the official language. A bill to accomplish just that has its backers in the House and Senate, but it has never come to a vote because it doesn't yet have a majority to pass. Trump's executive order can be mentioned in an editorial footnote (in infobox or in text under "Language"). An encyclopedia can certainly take note of that, but it shouldn't overstep. <a href="/wiki/User:Mason.Jones" title="User:Mason.Jones">Mason.Jones</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mason.Jones" title="User talk:Mason.Jones">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Mason.Jones-20250228161000-Aviationlover1-20250228150900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:10, 28 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mason.Jones-20250228161000-Aviationlover1-20250228150900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mason.Jones-20250228161000-Aviationlover1-20250228150900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GN22-20250228170600-Mason.Jones-20250228161000"></span>According to basically all the news reports reporting on this, the U.S. president <i>can</i> designate an official national language with an executive order. <a href="/wiki/User:GN22" title="User:GN22">GN22</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GN22" title="User talk:GN22">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-GN22-20250228170600-Mason.Jones-20250228161000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:06, 28 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GN22-20250228170600-Mason.Jones-20250228161000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GN22-20250228170600-Mason.Jones-20250228161000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AG202-20250228184800-GN22-20250228170600"></span>No one has actually discussed the legal implications, unfortunately. We first need to see what the EO says and then assess accordingly. I suspect that a federal law would be required to make it permanent; otherwise, we'll just be going back and forth between administrations revoking and reinstating EOs, which seems against the point of the "official language" designation. A note may be best if the EO does as described. <a href="/wiki/User:AG202" title="User:AG202">AG202</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:AG202" title="User talk:AG202">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-AG202-20250228184800-GN22-20250228170600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:48, 28 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AG202-20250228184800-GN22-20250228170600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AG202-20250228184800-GN22-20250228170600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AG202-20250228185300-AG202-20250228184800"></span>Also, I suspect that the EO would only actually apply to the Executive Branch's functions, which is only a part of the federal government. <a href="/wiki/User:AG202" title="User:AG202">AG202</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:AG202" title="User talk:AG202">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-AG202-20250228185300-AG202-20250228184800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:53, 28 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AG202-20250228185300-AG202-20250228184800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AG202-20250228185300-AG202-20250228184800"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Twinbros04-20250228204800-Mason.Jones-20250228161000"></span>This is <b>false</b>. It is absolutely within Trump's executive authority to declare English as the official language of the country. <a href="/wiki/User:Twinbros04" title="User:Twinbros04">Twinbros04</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Twinbros04" title="User talk:Twinbros04">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Twinbros04-20250228204800-Mason.Jones-20250228161000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:48, 28 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Twinbros04-20250228204800-Mason.Jones-20250228161000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Twinbros04-20250228204800-Mason.Jones-20250228161000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AG202-20250228205200-Twinbros04-20250228204800"></span>Again EOs are not law. Considering that Congress has made several attempts to designate English as the official language with none passing, that means that they at least have seen it as under their authority. Having the "official language" go back and forth between administrations seems counterintuitive for what it should actually mean. <a href="/wiki/User:AG202" title="User:AG202">AG202</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:AG202" title="User talk:AG202">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-AG202-20250228205200-Twinbros04-20250228204800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:52, 28 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AG202-20250228205200-Twinbros04-20250228204800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AG202-20250228205200-Twinbros04-20250228204800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Twinbros04-20250228205900-AG202-20250228205200"></span>Again, you are wrong. EOs are literally law. If this Executive Order proclaims English to be the nation's official language, then for the next four years, this Wikipedia page must reflect that. Whether or not this would be overturned by a future president is a crystal balling issue. <a href="/wiki/User:Twinbros04" title="User:Twinbros04">Twinbros04</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Twinbros04" title="User talk:Twinbros04">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Twinbros04-20250228205900-AG202-20250228205200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:59, 28 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Twinbros04-20250228205900-AG202-20250228205200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Twinbros04-20250228205900-AG202-20250228205200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AG202-20250228210000-Twinbros04-20250228205900"></span>Copy-pasting: No they are not. As stated by the <a href="/wiki/Executive_order" title="Executive order">Executive order</a> article: they are "directives", "guiding agencies on how to <b>interpret and implement</b> congressionally-passed laws" (emphasis mine). They do not make law, and are often struck down in accordance with existing law. <i><a href="/wiki/Youngstown_Sheet_%26_Tube_Co._v._Sawyer" title="Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer">Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer</a></i> made this exceedingly clear. <a href="/wiki/User:AG202" title="User:AG202">AG202</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:AG202" title="User talk:AG202">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-AG202-20250228210000-Twinbros04-20250228205900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:00, 28 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AG202-20250228210000-Twinbros04-20250228205900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AG202-20250228210000-Twinbros04-20250228205900"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JasonMacker-20250228161600-Aviationlover1-20250228150900"></span>This talk page is for discussions regarding improving the article. As it currently stands, the United States does not have an official language, and the article reflects that. Should that change, the article can be updated accordingly. But, Wikipedia is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CRYSTAL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CRYSTAL">not a crystal ball</a>, and so we can't edit the article based on Trump saying that in the future he will sign something. <a href="/wiki/User:JasonMacker" title="User:JasonMacker">JasonMacker</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JasonMacker" title="User talk:JasonMacker">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-JasonMacker-20250228161600-Aviationlover1-20250228150900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:16, 28 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JasonMacker-20250228161600-Aviationlover1-20250228150900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JasonMacker-20250228161600-Aviationlover1-20250228150900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mason.Jones-20250228164000-JasonMacker-20250228161600"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:JasonMacker" title="User:JasonMacker">JasonMacker</a>: True, but good-faith inquiries here (from non-U.S. readers especially) are to be expected. The executive order is sweeping through the global media now, just like "Gulf of America" did last month. We have to be prepared for questions as well as random edits to the page. <a href="/wiki/User:Mason.Jones" title="User:Mason.Jones">Mason.Jones</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mason.Jones" title="User talk:Mason.Jones">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-Mason.Jones-20250228164000-JasonMacker-20250228161600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:40, 28 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mason.Jones-20250228164000-JasonMacker-20250228161600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mason.Jones-20250228164000-JasonMacker-20250228161600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AG202-20250228185500-Mason.Jones-20250228164000"></span>Maybe <a href="/wiki/Languages_of_the_United_States" title="Languages of the United States">Languages of the United States</a> should be extended-confirmed-protected ahead of time. <a href="/wiki/User:AG202" title="User:AG202">AG202</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:AG202" title="User talk:AG202">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States#c-AG202-20250228185500-Mason.Jones-20250228164000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:55, 28 February 2025 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AG202-20250228185500-Mason.Jones-20250228164000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AG202-20250228185500-Mason.Jones-20250228164000"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl>    </div><noscript><img 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