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knowledge</a></div></div> </div> <div id="bodyContent" class="content"> <div id="mw-content-text" class="mw-body-content"><script>function mfTempOpenSection(id){var block=document.getElementById("mf-section-"+id);block.className+=" open-block";block.previousSibling.className+=" open-block";}</script><div class="mw-content-ltr mw-parser-output" lang="en" dir="ltr"><section class="mf-section-0" id="mf-section-0"><div class="shortdescription nomobile noexcerpt noprint searchaux" style="display:none">Noticeboard to discuss fringe theories</div> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1236090951">.mw-parser-output .hatnote{font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output div.hatnote{padding-left:1.6em;margin-bottom:0.5em}.mw-parser-output .hatnote i{font-style:normal}.mw-parser-output .hatnote+link+.hatnote{margin-top:-0.5em}@media print{body.ns-0 .mw-parser-output .hatnote{display:none!important}}</style><div role="note" class="hatnote navigation-not-searchable">"WP:FTN" redirects here. 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For a related set of forums which do not function as noticeboards see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Processes#Formal_review" title="Wikipedia:Processes">formal review processes</a>.</div></td></tr><tr><th scope="row" class="navbox-group" style="width:1%">General</th><td class="navbox-list-with-group navbox-list navbox-odd hlist" style="width:100%;padding:0"><div style="padding:0 0.25em"> <ul><li>Administrators <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard" title="Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard">Main</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents" title="Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents">Incidents</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Bots/Noticeboard" title="Wikipedia:Bots/Noticeboard">Bots</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard" title="Wikipedia:Bureaucrats' noticeboard">Bureaucrats</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Centralized_discussion" title="Wikipedia:Centralized 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</div></td></tr><tr><th scope="row" class="navbox-group" style="width:1%">Articles and content</th><td class="navbox-list-with-group navbox-list navbox-even hlist" style="width:100%;padding:0"><div style="padding:0 0.25em"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard" title="Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard">Biographies of living persons</a></li> <li>Copyrights <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Media_copyright_questions" title="Wikipedia:Media copyright questions">Questions on media</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyright_problems" title="Wikipedia:Copyright problems">Problems</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard" title="Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard">Dispute resolution</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:External_links/Noticeboard" title="Wikipedia:External links/Noticeboard">External links</a></li> <li><a class="mw-selflink selflink">Fringe theories</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard">Neutral point of view</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research/Noticeboard" title="Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard">Original research</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Pending_changes" title="Wikipedia talk:Pending changes">Pending changes</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard" title="Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard">Reliable sources</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange/Resource_Request" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request">Resource requests</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SVG_help" title="Wikipedia:SVG help">Scalable vector graphics</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spam">Spam</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/MediaWiki_talk:Spam-blacklist" title="MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist">Blacklist</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/MediaWiki_talk:Spam-whitelist" title="MediaWiki talk:Spam-whitelist">Whitelist</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style">Style</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/MediaWiki_talk:Titleblacklist" title="MediaWiki talk:Titleblacklist">Titleblacklist</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Pages_needing_translation_into_English" title="Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English">Translation</a></li></ul> </div></td></tr><tr><th scope="row" class="navbox-group" style="width:1%">Page handling</th><td class="navbox-list-with-group navbox-list navbox-odd hlist" style="width:100%;padding:0"><div style="padding:0 0.25em"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_history_merge" title="Wikipedia:Requests for history merge">History merges</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Proposed_article_mergers" title="Wikipedia:Proposed article mergers">Mergers</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Proposed_article_splits" title="Wikipedia:Proposed article splits">Splits</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_moves" title="Wikipedia:Requested moves">Moves</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection" title="Wikipedia:Requests for page protection">Protection</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_importation" title="Wikipedia:Requests for page importation">Importation</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_process" title="Wikipedia:Deletion process">XfD</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion">Articles</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion">Redirects</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion" title="Wikipedia:Categories for discussion">Categories</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion" title="Wikipedia:Templates for discussion">Templates</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Files_for_discussion" title="Wikipedia:Files for discussion">Files</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion" title="Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion">Miscellany</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_undeletion" title="Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion">Undeletion</a></li></ul> </div></td></tr><tr><th scope="row" class="navbox-group" style="width:1%">User conduct</th><td class="navbox-list-with-group navbox-list navbox-even hlist" style="width:100%;padding:0"><div style="padding:0 0.25em"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard" title="Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard">Conflict of interest</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Contributor_copyright_investigations" title="Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations">Contributor copyright</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring" title="Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring">Edit warring and 3RR</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Sanctions" title="Wikipedia:Sanctions">Sanctions</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Editing_restrictions" title="Wikipedia:Editing restrictions">Personal restrictions</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:General_sanctions" title="Wikipedia:General sanctions">General sanctions</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Contentious_topics" title="Wikipedia:Contentious topics">Contentious topics</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations" title="Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations">Sockpuppets</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Usernames_for_administrator_attention" title="Wikipedia:Usernames for administrator attention">Usernames</a> (<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/User_names" title="Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User names">Requests for comment</a>)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism" title="Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism">Vandalism</a></li></ul> </div></td></tr><tr><th scope="row" class="navbox-group" style="width:1%">Other</th><td class="navbox-list-with-group navbox-list navbox-odd hlist" style="width:100%;padding:0"><div style="padding:0 0.25em"> <ul><li>Arbitration <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard" title="Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard">Committee noticeboard</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests" title="Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests">Requests</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement" title="Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement">Enforcement</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Edit_filter_noticeboard" title="Wikipedia:Edit filter noticeboard">Edit filters</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Edit_filter/Requested" title="Wikipedia:Edit filter/Requested">Requested</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Edit_filter/False_positives" title="Wikipedia:Edit filter/False positives">False positives</a></li></ul></li> <li>Questions <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Help_desk" title="Wikipedia:Help desk">Help desk</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Teahouse" title="Wikipedia:Teahouse">Teahouse</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk" title="Wikipedia:Reference desk">Reference desk</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk">New articles</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/All" title="Wikipedia:Requests for comment/All">Requests for comment</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump" title="Wikipedia:Village pump">Village pump</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)">Policy</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)">Technical</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)">Proposals</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(idea_lab)" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)">Idea lab</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(WMF)" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (WMF)">WMF</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous)" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)">Miscellaneous</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals">WikiProject proposals</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Discussions_for_discussion" title="Wikipedia:Discussions for discussion">Discussions for discussion</a></li></ul> </div></td></tr><tr><td class="navbox-abovebelow" colspan="2" style="{{{groupstyle}}}"><div> <a href="/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_noticeboards" title="Category:Wikipedia noticeboards">Category:Wikipedia noticeboards</a></div></td></tr></tbody></table></div><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1214005174">body.skin-vector-2022 .mw-parser-output .skip-to-toc,body.skin-timeless .mw-parser-output .skip-to-bottom,.mw-parser-output .skip-to-bottom-timeless{display:none}body.skin-timeless .mw-parser-output .skip-to-bottom-timeless{display:inline}</style> <ul></ul> <table style="background:transparent; width:100%; margin: 2px 0; border:2px ridge #CAE1FF; background-color: #F0F8FF; padding:4px;"> <tbody><tr> <th colspan="3" style="background:#AAD1FF; text-align:center; padding:5px 0 5px 0; font-size:120%;">Fringe theories noticeboard - dealing with all sorts of pseudoscience </th></tr> <tr> <td colspan="3"> <table width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1252059228">.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutboxplain{float:right;margin:0 0 0 1em;border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);background-color:var(--background-color-base,#fff);padding:0.3em 0.6em 0.2em 0.6em;text-align:center;font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutboxleft{float:left;margin:0 1em 0 0}.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutlist{display:inline-block;border-bottom:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);margin-bottom:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutboxplain ul{font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutanchordiv{position:relative;top:-3em}.mw-parser-output li .module-shortcutanchordiv{float:right}.mw-parser-output .mbox-imageright .module-shortcutboxplain{padding:0.4em 1em 0.4em 1em;line-height:1.3;margin:0}</style><div class="module-shortcutanchordiv"></div><div class="module-shortcutboxplain noprint" role="note"><div class="module-shortcutlist"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Shortcut" title="Wikipedia:Shortcut">Shortcuts</a></div><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1126788409">.mw-parser-output .plainlist ol,.mw-parser-output .plainlist ul{line-height:inherit;list-style:none;margin:0;padding:0}.mw-parser-output .plainlist ol li,.mw-parser-output .plainlist ul li{margin-bottom:0}</style><div class="plainlist"><ul><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:FTN&redirect=no">WP:FTN</a></li><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:FT/N&redirect=no">WP:FT/N</a></li></ul></div></div>Before posting, make sure you understand <a href="/wiki/Template:Talk_fringe" title="Template:Talk fringe">this short summary of relevant policies and advice</a> and particularly <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:FRINGE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:FRINGE">the guideline on treating fringe theories</a>. Also, check the archives for similar discussions. We can help determine whether the topic is fringe and if so, whether it is treated accurately and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">impartially</a>. Our purpose is not to remove any mention of fringe theories, but to describe them properly. Never present fringe theories as fact. If you mention specific editors, you should notify them. You may use <code>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Ftn-notice" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Ftn-notice">subst:ftn-notice</a>}}</code> to do so. Deploy <code>{{talk fringe|the fringe theory name}}</code> to articles' talkpages under discussion. Please also notify any relevant <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Directory" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory">Wikiprojects</a> to encourage an increased visibility for the discussion. </td></tr> </tbody></table> <hr> </td></tr> <tr> <td colspan="3"> <table class="wikitable" style="float:right;vertical-align:top;"> <tbody><tr> <td width="300" style="text-align:center;">Search this noticeboard & archives <a href="/wiki/User:Lowercase_sigmabot_III" title="User:Lowercase sigmabot III">Lowercase sigmabot III</a> will <a href="/wiki/H:ARC" class="mw-redirect" title="H:ARC">archive</a> sections older than 20 days </td></tr> <tr> <td><div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style=""><form name="searchbox" class="searchbox mw-inputbox-form" action="/wiki/Special:Search"><div class="cdx-text-input"><input class="mw-inputbox-input mw-searchInput searchboxInput cdx-text-input__input" name="search" placeholder="" size="40" dir="ltr"></div><input type="hidden" value="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/" name="prefix"> <input type="submit" name="fulltext" value="Search" class="cdx-button"><input type="hidden" value="Search" name="fulltext"></form></div> </td></tr></tbody></table> Additional notes: <ul><li>Discussion of fringe theories will only depend on coverage in <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">reliable sources</a>. Medicine-related claims must comply with <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:MEDRS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:MEDRS">more stringent sourcing requirements</a>, but we also <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BESTSOURCES" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BESTSOURCES">generally prefer academic sources</a>.</li> <li>We are <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTAFORUM" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NOTAFORUM">not a forum</a> to discuss fringe theories as such. Our goal is to improve articles about them, or create new ones if needed.</li> <li>For concerns about neutrality in articles not about fringe theories, use the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOVN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOVN">neutral point of view noticeboard</a>. Report article content that appears to violate the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR">no original research rule</a> at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NORN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NORN">this noticeboard</a>.</li> <li>Paste <code>{{Resolved|Your reason here ~~~~}}</code> at the top of the section when your concern was addressed.</li></ul> </td></tr> <tr> <th colspan="3" style="background:#CAE4FF; font-size:110%; border:1px lightgray solid; padding:0; text-align:center;">To start a new request, enter the name of the relevant article below: <hr style="margin-bottom:8px;width:99%;"> <div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style=""><form name="commentbox" class="commentbox mw-inputbox-form" action="/w/index.php" method="get"><input type="hidden" value="edit" name="action"><div class="cdx-text-input"><input name="preloadtitle" class="mw-inputbox-input commentboxInput cdx-text-input__input" placeholder="" size="50" dir="ltr"></div><input type="hidden" value="new" name="section"><input type="hidden" value="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard" name="title"> <input type="submit" name="create" value="Create report" class="cdx-button cdx-button--action-progressive cdx-button--weight-primary"></form></div> </th></tr></tbody></table> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1214851843">.mw-parser-output .hidden-begin{box-sizing:border-box;width:100%;padding:5px;border:none;font-size:95%}.mw-parser-output .hidden-title{font-weight:bold;line-height:1.6;text-align:left}.mw-parser-output .hidden-content{text-align:left}@media all and (max-width:500px){.mw-parser-output .hidden-begin{width:auto!important;clear:none!important;float:none!important}}</style><div class="hidden-begin mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="border:1px solid gray;"><div class="hidden-title skin-nightmode-reset-color" style="text-align:center; background: #ccccff; font-size: 110%;">Article alerts</div><div class="hidden-content mw-collapsible-content" style=""> Today's featured articles <ul><li>25 Nov 2024 – <a href="/wiki/Myalgic_encephalomyelitis/chronic_fatigue_syndrome" title="Myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome">Myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome</a> (<a href="/wiki/Talk:Myalgic_encephalomyelitis/chronic_fatigue_syndrome" title="Talk:Myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome">talk</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Myalgic_encephalomyelitis/chronic_fatigue_syndrome&action=edit">edit</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Myalgic_encephalomyelitis/chronic_fatigue_syndrome&action=history">hist</a>) will be Today's Featured Article; see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Today%27s_featured_article/November_25,_2024" title="Wikipedia:Today's featured article/November 25, 2024">blurb</a></li></ul> Articles for deletion <ul><li><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1239334494">@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output div:not(.notheme)>.tmp-color,html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output p>.tmp-color,html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output table:not(.notheme) .tmp-color{color:inherit!important}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output div:not(.notheme)>.tmp-color,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output p>.tmp-color,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output table:not(.notheme) .tmp-color{color:inherit!important}}</style>16 Nov 2024 – <a href="/w/index.php?title=Timeline_of_Ufology&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Timeline of Ufology (page does not exist)">Timeline of Ufology</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Timeline_of_Ufology&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Talk:Timeline of Ufology (page does not exist)">talk</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Timeline_of_Ufology&action=edit">edit</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Timeline_of_Ufology&action=history">hist</a>) AfDed by <a href="/wiki/User:LuckyLouie" title="User:LuckyLouie">LuckyLouie</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LuckyLouie" title="User talk:LuckyLouie">t</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/LuckyLouie" title="Special:Contributions/LuckyLouie">c</a>) was closed as <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=delete&page=Timeline_of_Ufology">delete</a> by <a href="/wiki/User:Just_Step_Sideways" title="User:Just Step Sideways">Just Step Sideways</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Just_Step_Sideways" title="User talk:Just Step Sideways">t</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Just_Step_Sideways" title="Special:Contributions/Just Step Sideways">c</a>) on 24 Nov 2024; see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Timeline_of_UFOs" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Timeline of UFOs">discussion</a> (<style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1038841319">.mw-parser-output .tooltip-dotted{border-bottom:1px dotted;cursor:help}</style>25 participants)</li></ul> Categories for discussion <ul><li>17 Nov 2024 – <a href="/wiki/Category:People_by_paranormal_abilities" title="Category:People by paranormal abilities">Category:People by paranormal abilities</a> (<a href="/wiki/Category_talk:People_by_paranormal_abilities" title="Category talk:People by paranormal abilities">talk</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:People_by_paranormal_abilities&action=edit">edit</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:People_by_paranormal_abilities&action=history">hist</a>) was CfDed by <a href="/wiki/User:Zxcvbnm" title="User:Zxcvbnm">Zxcvbnm</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Zxcvbnm" title="User talk:Zxcvbnm">t</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Zxcvbnm" title="Special:Contributions/Zxcvbnm">c</a>); see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_November_17#Category:People_by_paranormal_abilities" title="Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 November 17">discussion</a></li></ul> Redirects for discussion <ul><li>20 Nov 2024 – <a href="/wiki/Dr_A" title="Dr A">Dr A</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dr_A&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Talk:Dr A (page does not exist)">talk</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dr_A&action=edit">edit</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dr_A&action=history">hist</a>) →<a href="/wiki/Isaac_Asimov" title="Isaac Asimov">Isaac Asimov</a> was RfDed by <a href="/wiki/User:TeapotsOfDoom" title="User:TeapotsOfDoom">TeapotsOfDoom</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TeapotsOfDoom" title="User talk:TeapotsOfDoom">t</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/TeapotsOfDoom" title="Special:Contributions/TeapotsOfDoom">c</a>); see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2024_November_20#Dr_A" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 November 20">discussion</a></li> <li>03 Nov 2024 – <a href="/wiki/Handwriting_expert" title="Handwriting expert">Handwriting expert</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Handwriting_expert&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Talk:Handwriting expert (page does not exist)">talk</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Handwriting_expert&action=edit">edit</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Handwriting_expert&action=history">hist</a>) →<a href="/wiki/Graphology" title="Graphology">Graphology</a> was RfDed by <a href="/wiki/User:BD2412" title="User:BD2412">BD2412</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BD2412" title="User talk:BD2412">t</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/BD2412" title="Special:Contributions/BD2412">c</a>); see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2024_November_3#Handwriting_expert" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 November 3">discussion</a></li></ul> Good article nominees <ul><li>23 Aug 2024 – <a href="/wiki/Epistemology" title="Epistemology">Epistemology</a> (<a href="/wiki/Talk:Epistemology" title="Talk:Epistemology">talk</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Epistemology&action=edit">edit</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Epistemology&action=history">hist</a>) was GA nominated by <a href="/wiki/User:Phlsph7" title="User:Phlsph7">Phlsph7</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Phlsph7" title="User talk:Phlsph7">t</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Phlsph7" title="Special:Contributions/Phlsph7">c</a>); start <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Epistemology/GA1&action=edit&preload=Template:GAN/preload&editintro=Template:GAN/editintro">discussion</a></li></ul> Requests for comments <ul><li>20 Nov 2024 – <a href="/wiki/COVID-19_lab_leak_theory" title="COVID-19 lab leak theory">COVID-19 lab leak theory</a> (<a href="/wiki/Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory" title="Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory">talk</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=COVID-19_lab_leak_theory&action=edit">edit</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=COVID-19_lab_leak_theory&action=history">hist</a>) has an RfC by <a href="/wiki/User:Cremastra" title="User:Cremastra">Cremastra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cremastra" title="User talk:Cremastra">t</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Cremastra" title="Special:Contributions/Cremastra">c</a>); see <a href="/wiki/Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory#rfctag" title="Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory">discussion</a></li> <li>29 Oct 2024 – <a href="/wiki/List_of_common_misconceptions" title="List of common misconceptions">List of common misconceptions</a> (<a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_common_misconceptions" title="Talk:List of common misconceptions">talk</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_common_misconceptions&action=edit">edit</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_common_misconceptions&action=history">hist</a>) has an RfC by <a href="/wiki/User:WhatamIdoing" title="User:WhatamIdoing">WhatamIdoing</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WhatamIdoing" title="User talk:WhatamIdoing">t</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/WhatamIdoing" title="Special:Contributions/WhatamIdoing">c</a>); see <a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_common_misconceptions#rfctag" title="Talk:List of common misconceptions">discussion</a></li> <li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239334494">11 Nov 2024 – <a href="/wiki/Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory" title="Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory">Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory</a> (<a href="/wiki/Talk:Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory" title="Talk:Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory">talk</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory&action=edit">edit</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory&action=history">hist</a>) RfC by <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:87.116.177.103&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:87.116.177.103 (page does not exist)">87.116.177.103</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:87.116.177.103&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:87.116.177.103 (page does not exist)">t</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/87.116.177.103" title="Special:Contributions/87.116.177.103">c</a>) was <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1038841319">closed; see <a href="/wiki/Talk:Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory#rfctag" title="Talk:Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory">discussion</a></li> <li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239334494">10 Nov 2024 – <a href="/wiki/Bermuda_Triangle" title="Bermuda Triangle">Bermuda Triangle</a> (<a href="/wiki/Talk:Bermuda_Triangle" title="Talk:Bermuda Triangle">talk</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bermuda_Triangle&action=edit">edit</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bermuda_Triangle&action=history">hist</a>) RfC by <a href="/wiki/User:Guninvalid" title="User:Guninvalid">Guninvalid</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Guninvalid" title="User talk:Guninvalid">t</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Guninvalid" title="Special:Contributions/Guninvalid">c</a>) was <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1038841319">closed; see <a href="/wiki/Talk:Bermuda_Triangle#rfctag" title="Talk:Bermuda Triangle">discussion</a></li></ul> Requested moves <ul><li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239334494">15 Nov 2024 – <a href="/wiki/Great_Replacement" class="mw-redirect" title="Great Replacement">Great Replacement</a> (<a href="/wiki/Talk:Great_Replacement" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Great Replacement">talk</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Great_Replacement&action=edit">edit</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Great_Replacement&action=history">hist</a>) move request to <a href="/wiki/Great_Replacement_conspiracy_theory" title="Great Replacement conspiracy theory">Great Replacement conspiracy theory</a> by <a href="/wiki/User:TarnishedPath" title="User:TarnishedPath">TarnishedPath</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TarnishedPath" title="User talk:TarnishedPath">t</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/TarnishedPath" title="Special:Contributions/TarnishedPath">c</a>) was moved to <a href="/wiki/Great_Replacement_conspiracy_theory" title="Great Replacement conspiracy theory">Great Replacement conspiracy theory</a> (<a href="/wiki/Talk:Great_Replacement_conspiracy_theory" title="Talk:Great Replacement conspiracy theory">talk</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Great_Replacement_conspiracy_theory&action=edit">edit</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Great_Replacement_conspiracy_theory&action=history">hist</a>) by <a href="/wiki/User:Frost" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Frost">Frost</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Frost" title="User talk:Frost">t</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Frost" title="Special:Contributions/Frost">c</a>) on 22 Nov 2024; see <a href="/wiki/Talk:Great_Replacement#Requested_move_15_November_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Great Replacement">discussion</a></li></ul> Articles to be merged <ul><li>05 Oct 2024 – <a href="/wiki/White_lighter_myth" title="White lighter myth">White lighter myth</a> (<a href="/wiki/Talk:White_lighter_myth" title="Talk:White lighter myth">talk</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=White_lighter_myth&action=edit">edit</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=White_lighter_myth&action=history">hist</a>) is proposed for merging to <a href="/wiki/27_Club" title="27 Club">27 Club</a> by <a href="/wiki/User:HadesTTW" title="User:HadesTTW">HadesTTW</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:HadesTTW" title="User talk:HadesTTW">t</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/HadesTTW" title="Special:Contributions/HadesTTW">c</a>); see <a href="/wiki/Talk:27_Club#Proposed_merge_of_White_lighter_myth_into_27_Club" title="Talk:27 Club">discussion</a></li> <li>13 Jul 2024 – <a href="/wiki/Peter_A._Levine" title="Peter A. Levine">Peter A. Levine</a> (<a href="/wiki/Talk:Peter_A._Levine" title="Talk:Peter A. Levine">talk</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Peter_A._Levine&action=edit">edit</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Peter_A._Levine&action=history">hist</a>) is proposed for merging to <a href="/wiki/Somatic_experiencing" title="Somatic experiencing">Somatic experiencing</a> by <a href="/wiki/User:Klbrain" title="User:Klbrain">Klbrain</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Klbrain" title="User talk:Klbrain">t</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Klbrain" title="Special:Contributions/Klbrain">c</a>); see <a href="/wiki/Talk:Somatic_experiencing" title="Talk:Somatic experiencing">discussion</a></li></ul> Articles to be split <ul><li>08 Jul 2024 – <a href="/wiki/List_of_common_misconceptions" title="List of common misconceptions">List of common misconceptions</a> (<a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_common_misconceptions" title="Talk:List of common misconceptions">talk</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_common_misconceptions&action=edit">edit</a> · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_common_misconceptions&action=history">hist</a>) is proposed for splitting by <a href="/wiki/User:WhatamIdoing" title="User:WhatamIdoing">WhatamIdoing</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WhatamIdoing" title="User talk:WhatamIdoing">t</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/WhatamIdoing" title="Special:Contributions/WhatamIdoing">c</a>); see <a href="/wiki/Talk:List_of_common_misconceptions" title="Talk:List of common misconceptions">discussion</a></li></ul> </div></div> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1238436933">.mw-parser-output .ombox{margin:4px 0;border-collapse:collapse;border:1px solid #a2a9b1;background-color:var(--background-color-neutral-subtle,#f8f9fa);box-sizing:border-box;color:var(--color-base,#202122)}.mw-parser-output .ombox.mbox-small{font-size:88%;line-height:1.25em}.mw-parser-output .ombox-speedy{border:2px solid #b32424;background-color:#fee7e6}.mw-parser-output .ombox-delete{border:2px solid #b32424}.mw-parser-output .ombox-content{border:1px solid #f28500}.mw-parser-output .ombox-style{border:1px solid #fc3}.mw-parser-output .ombox-move{border:1px solid #9932cc}.mw-parser-output .ombox-protection{border:2px solid #a2a9b1}.mw-parser-output .ombox .mbox-text{border:none;padding:0.25em 0.9em;width:100%}.mw-parser-output .ombox .mbox-image{border:none;padding:2px 0 2px 0.9em;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .ombox .mbox-imageright{border:none;padding:2px 0.9em 2px 0;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .ombox .mbox-empty-cell{border:none;padding:0;width:1px}.mw-parser-output .ombox .mbox-invalid-type{text-align:center}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .ombox{margin:4px 10%}.mw-parser-output .ombox.mbox-small{clear:right;float:right;margin:4px 0 4px 1em;width:238px}}body.skin--responsive .mw-parser-output table.ombox img{max-width:none!important}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .ombox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .ombox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}</style> <table id="archivebox" role="presentation" class="ombox ombox-notice mbox-small" style="text-align: center; padding: 1em;"> <tbody><tr> <td style="padding:0.6em 0 0.25em;"> <div style="width:100%; overflow:hidden;"><a href="/wiki/File:Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/40px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/60px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/80px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="200" data-file-height="200"></a> Archives</div> </td></tr><tr> <td class="plainlinks"> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_1" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 1">1</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_2" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 2">2</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_3" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 3">3</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_4" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 4">4</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_5" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 5">5</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_6" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 6">6</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_7" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 7">7</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_8" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 8">8</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_9" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 9">9</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_10" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 10">10</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_11" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 11">11</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_12" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 12">12</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_13" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 13">13</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_14" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 14">14</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_15" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 15">15</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_16" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 16">16</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_17" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 17">17</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_18" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 18">18</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_19" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 19">19</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_20" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 20">20</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_21" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 21">21</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_22" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 22">22</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_23" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 23">23</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_24" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 24">24</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_25" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 25">25</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_26" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 26">26</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_27" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 27">27</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_28" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 28">28</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_29" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 29">29</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_30" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 30">30</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_31" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 31">31</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_32" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 32">32</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_33" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 33">33</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_34" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 34">34</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_35" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 35">35</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_36" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 36">36</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_37" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 37">37</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_38" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 38">38</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_39" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 39">39</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_40" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 40">40</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_41" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 41">41</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_42" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 42">42</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_43" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 43">43</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_44" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 44">44</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_45" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 45">45</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_46" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 46">46</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_47" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 47">47</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_48" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 48">48</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_49" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 49">49</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_50" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 50">50</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_51" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 51">51</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_52" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 52">52</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_53" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 53">53</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_54" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 54">54</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_55" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 55">55</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_56" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 56">56</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_57" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 57">57</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_58" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 58">58</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_59" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 59">59</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_60" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 60">60</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_61" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 61">61</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_62" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 62">62</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_63" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 63">63</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_64" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 64">64</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_65" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 65">65</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_66" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 66">66</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_67" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 67">67</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_68" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 68">68</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_69" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 69">69</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_70" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 70">70</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_71" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 71">71</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_72" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 72">72</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_73" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 73">73</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_74" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 74">74</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_75" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 75">75</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_76" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 76">76</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_77" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 77">77</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_78" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 78">78</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_79" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 79">79</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_80" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 80">80</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_81" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 81">81</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_82" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 82">82</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_83" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 83">83</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_84" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 84">84</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_85" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 85">85</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_86" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 86">86</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_87" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 87">87</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_88" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 88">88</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_89" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 89">89</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_90" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 90">90</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_91" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 91">91</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_92" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 92">92</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_93" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 93">93</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_94" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 94">94</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_95" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 95">95</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_96" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 96">96</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_97" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 97">97</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_98" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 98">98</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_99" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 99">99</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_100" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 100">100</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_101" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 101">101</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_102" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 102">102</a> </td> </tr><tr><td style="padding-bottom:11px"><div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style=""><form name="searchbox" class="searchbox mw-inputbox-form" action="/wiki/Special:Search"><div class="cdx-text-input"><input class="mw-inputbox-input mw-searchInput searchboxInput cdx-text-input__input" name="search" placeholder="" size="22" dir="ltr"></div><input type="hidden" value="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/" name="prefix"> <input type="submit" name="fulltext" value="Search archives" class="cdx-button"><input type="hidden" value="Search" name="fulltext"></form></div> </td></tr><tr><td style="padding:0px 10px; font-size:11.9px;"> <hr> This page has archives. Sections older than 20 days may be automatically archived by <a href="/wiki/User:Lowercase_sigmabot_III" title="User:Lowercase sigmabot III">Lowercase sigmabot III</a> when more than 4 sections are present.</td></tr> </tbody></table> <div id="toc" class="toc" role="navigation" aria-labelledby="mw-toc-heading"><input type="checkbox" role="button" id="toctogglecheckbox" class="toctogglecheckbox" style="display:none"><div class="toctitle" lang="en" dir="ltr"><h2 id="mw-toc-heading">Contents</h2><label class="toctogglelabel" for="toctogglecheckbox"></label></div> <ul> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-1"><a href="#Traditional_ecological_knowledge">1 Traditional ecological knowledge</a> <ul> <li class="toclevel-2 tocsection-2"><a href="#Intuition_and_animism_at_the_article_Traditional_knowledge">1.1 Intuition and animism at the article Traditional knowledge</a></li> </ul> </li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-3"><a href="#Talk:Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy_needs_some_input_from_other_editors">2 Talk:Ancient Egyptian race controversy needs some input from other editors</a> <ul> <li class="toclevel-2 tocsection-4"><a href="#Clearing_things_up">2.1 Clearing things up</a></li> <li class="toclevel-2 tocsection-5"><a href="#ANI">2.2 ANI</a></li> </ul> </li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-6"><a href="#Precambrian_chitons_and_another_reports_by_Mark_McMenamin">3 Precambrian chitons and another reports by Mark McMenamin</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-7"><a href="#AFD_Sonoran_University_of_Health_Sciences">4 AFD Sonoran University of Health Sciences</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-8"><a href="#Younger_Dryas_impact_hypothesis_again">5 Younger Dryas impact hypothesis again</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-9"><a href="#Why_Most_Published_Research_Findings_Are_False">6 Why Most Published Research Findings Are False</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-10"><a href="#A_new_Eugenics_sidebar">7 A new Eugenics sidebar</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-11"><a href="#Cultural_Marxism_(disambiguation)">8 Cultural Marxism (disambiguation)</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-12"><a href="#Climate_stuff">9 Climate stuff</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-13"><a href="#Timeline_of_UFO_investigations_and_public_disclosure">10 Timeline of UFO investigations and public disclosure</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-14"><a href="#Kanawha_people">11 Kanawha people</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-15"><a href="#Jewish_Indian_theory">12 Jewish Indian theory</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-16"><a href="#Stephen_B._Levine">13 Stephen B. Levine</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-17"><a href="#Intuitive_Interspecies_Communication_(IIC)">14 Intuitive Interspecies Communication (IIC)</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-18"><a href="#James_Mellaart_and_%C3%87atalh%C3%B6y%C3%BCk_&_Mount_Hasan">15 James Mellaart and Çatalhöyük & Mount Hasan</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-19"><a href="#Pseudoarchaeology_on_Rogan">16 Pseudoarchaeology on Rogan</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-20"><a href="#Adding_claims_unsupported_by_cited_source_in_the_YDIH_article">17 Adding claims unsupported by cited source in the YDIH article</a></li> </ul> </div> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(1)"><h2 id="Traditional_ecological_knowledge" data-mw-thread-id="h-Traditional_ecological_knowledge-20241022180400">Traditional ecological knowledge</h2> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Traditional ecological knowledge" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> <span id='ooui-php-179' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-Kowal2701-20241123155500-Fiveby-20241123152500">1 day ago</a>78 comments16 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-1 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-1"> The articles <a href="/wiki/Traditional_ecological_knowledge" title="Traditional ecological knowledge">traditional ecological knowledge</a> and <a href="/wiki/Traditional_knowledge" title="Traditional knowledge">traditional knowledge</a> could probably use more scrutiny by folks with the time to do so. In fact, it might be good to merge them. But in any case, while there is undoubtedly something to the idea that people who have lived in and depended on an environment for a long time have gained knowledge about that environment, this topic never seems to be too far from people who use it to science-bash, or to give credence to unreliable ways of knowing or supernaturalism. There also seems to be a lot of bloat. <a href="/wiki/User:Crossroads" title="User:Crossroads">Crossroads</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Crossroads" title="User talk:Crossroads">-talk-</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Crossroads-20241022180400-Traditional_ecological_knowledge" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:04, 22 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-1" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>...and, sigh: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_98#Indigenous_science" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 98">Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_98#Indigenous_science</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Indigenous_science" title="Indigenous science">Indigenous science</a> (<a href="/wiki/Special:EditPage/Indigenous_science" title="Special:EditPage/Indigenous science">edit</a> | <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Indigenous_science&veaction=edit">visual edit</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:PageHistory/Indigenous_science" title="Special:PageHistory/Indigenous science">history</a>) · <a href="/wiki/Talk:Indigenous_science" title="Talk:Indigenous science">Article talk</a> (<a href="/wiki/Special:EditPage/Talk:Indigenous_science" title="Special:EditPage/Talk:Indigenous science">edit</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:PageHistory/Talk:Indigenous_science" title="Special:PageHistory/Talk:Indigenous science">history</a>) · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Indigenous_science&action=watch">Watch</a>.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Coloniality_of_knowledge" title="Coloniality of knowledge">Coloniality of knowledge</a> (<a href="/wiki/Special:EditPage/Coloniality_of_knowledge" title="Special:EditPage/Coloniality of knowledge">edit</a> | <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Coloniality_of_knowledge&veaction=edit">visual edit</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:PageHistory/Coloniality_of_knowledge" title="Special:PageHistory/Coloniality of knowledge">history</a>) · <a href="/wiki/Talk:Coloniality_of_knowledge" title="Talk:Coloniality of knowledge">Article talk</a> (<a href="/wiki/Special:EditPage/Talk:Coloniality_of_knowledge" title="Special:EditPage/Talk:Coloniality of knowledge">edit</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:PageHistory/Talk:Coloniality_of_knowledge" title="Special:PageHistory/Talk:Coloniality of knowledge">history</a>) · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Coloniality_of_knowledge&action=watch">Watch</a></li></ul></dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Fiveby" title="User:Fiveby">fiveby</a>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fiveby" title="User talk:Fiveby">zero</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Fiveby-20241022181300-Crossroads-20241022180400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:13, 22 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-2" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> <dl><dd>Was thinking some about the prior thread during the VP discussion with Tukdam and religion. Here also we have a call to <a href="/wiki/Decolonization_of_knowledge" title="Decolonization of knowledge">legitimize other knowledge systems by exploring alternative epistemologies, ontologies and methodologies</a>. While the Buddhism and consciousness revolution we are assured is <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www-degruyter-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/document/doi/10.7312/pres18956/html">on the way soon</a>, it seems to me this one already happened. How do you provide <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Purpose" title="Wikipedia:Purpose">information about knowledge</a> when knowledge itself is disputed. <a href="/wiki/User:Fiveby" title="User:Fiveby">fiveby</a>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fiveby" title="User talk:Fiveby">zero</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Fiveby-20241022204100-Crossroads-20241022180400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:41, 22 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-3" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Related: <a href="/wiki/Decoloniality" title="Decoloniality">Decoloniality</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Leijurv" title="User:Leijurv">Leijurv</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Leijurv" title="User talk:Leijurv">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Leijurv-20241023052100-Fiveby-20241022204100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:21, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-4" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd> <dd>I honestly have no idea what to do with these articles. The literature surrounding this topic, while published in reputable sources, is an intellectual walled garden that is largely ignored by non-proponents. This makes providing any sort of balance tricky. <a href="/wiki/User:Hemiauchenia" title="User:Hemiauchenia">Hemiauchenia</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hemiauchenia" title="User talk:Hemiauchenia">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Hemiauchenia-20241022234800-Crossroads-20241022180400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:48, 22 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-5" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Big garden in as you say reputable sources. What would you do with <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.esalen.org/faculty/david-presti">Bob Denver</a>? Mind Beyond Brain is Columbia University Press. <a href="/wiki/User:Fiveby" title="User:Fiveby">fiveby</a>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fiveby" title="User talk:Fiveby">zero</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Fiveby-20241023002700-Hemiauchenia-20241022234800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-6" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I was primarily talking about "indigenous science" What I mean is that historians and philosophers of science largely don't engage with the sorts of academics who write about "Indigenous science". Buddhism (the subject of Mind Beyond Brain) to me doesn't seem to come under the scope of "indigenous science" It seems more in the same sort of book genera as <a href="/wiki/The_Tao_of_Physics" title="The Tao of Physics">The Tao of Physics</a> and <a href="/wiki/The_Dancing_Wu_Li_Masters" title="The Dancing Wu Li Masters">The Dancing Wu Li Masters</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Hemiauchenia" title="User:Hemiauchenia">Hemiauchenia</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hemiauchenia" title="User talk:Hemiauchenia">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Hemiauchenia-20241023004300-Fiveby-20241023002700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:43, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-7" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I don't see an inherent difference: <ol><li>Wikipedia should legitimize other knowledge systems for religious observers</li> <li>Wikipedia should legitimize other knowledge systems for paranormal believers</li> <li>Wikipedia should legitimize other knowledge systems for Buddhist scientists</li> <li>Wikipedia should legitimize other knowledge systems for indigenous peoples</li></ol></dd> <dd>Pick all that apply.</dd> <dd>Before anyone jumps on me that is not commenting on the groups but those who talk of new "epistemologies, ontologies and methodologies" or some kind of fusion with science. <a href="/wiki/User:Fiveby" title="User:Fiveby">fiveby</a>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fiveby" title="User talk:Fiveby">zero</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Fiveby-20241023012500-Hemiauchenia-20241023004300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:25, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-8" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1248585704">@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{font-family:Georgia,"DejaVu Serif",serif;color:#008560;quotes:none}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-italic{font-family:inherit;font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-marks{quotes:"\"""\""}</style><q class="inline-quote-talk">I don't see an inherent difference</q>: I mean, a big difference would be that, say, Christian Bible fundamentalists and UFO proponents haven't historically been the victims of colonialism, displacement, white supremacy, and genocide the way Indigenous peoples have been, and there aren't major fields of respected, university press-published academia that legitimize the former two while there is a wide range of academically published scholars who write about decolonizing knowledge.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>Though I'd say the real question isn't whether 'Wikipedia should legitimize other knowledge systems for X'. The more pertinent question is 'is X knowledge system documented and analyzed as a subject of interest by reliable sources, like academic publications, and how do those reliable sources characterize that knowledge system?' Wikipedia looks to the best relevant sources for the best way to describe a topic. <a href="/wiki/User:Hydrangeans" title="User:Hydrangeans">Hydrangeans</a> (<a href="/wiki/She_(pronoun)" title="She (pronoun)">she/her</a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hydrangeans#top" title="User talk:Hydrangeans">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Hydrangeans" title="Special:Contributions/Hydrangeans">edits</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Hydrangeans-20241023041500-Fiveby-20241023012500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:15, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-9" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I believe the approach you describe as the real question follows this: <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www-cambridge-org.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/core/journals/british-journal-for-the-history-of-science/article/decentring-the-big-picture-the-origins-of-modern-science-and-the-modern-origins-of-science/9AD334E3BECD5F742BEA6A653D825D58">"De-centring the ‘big picture’: The Origins of Modern Science and the modern origins of science"</a> i linked in the older thread. That sounds to me appropriate for a global encyclopedia. But what we have here is a critique of Western science, and so <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Ecosystem management is a multifaceted and holistic approach to natural resource management. It incorporates both science and traditional ecological knowledge to collect data from long term measures that science cannot.</q> Science can't do that? <a href="/wiki/User:Fiveby" title="User:Fiveby">fiveby</a>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fiveby" title="User talk:Fiveby">zero</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Fiveby-20241023050000-Hydrangeans-20241023041500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:00, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-10" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>As that paragraph in <a href="/wiki/Traditional_ecological_knowledge" title="Traditional ecological knowledge">traditional ecological knowledge</a> isn't footnoted, it's hard to judge whether it hews to sources and to which sources or not. What I do notice is that the apparently main article, <a href="/wiki/Ecosystem_management" title="Ecosystem management">ecosystem management</a>, seems to describe the practice's relationship to science differently: <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">ecosystem management is guided by ecological science to ensure the long-term sustainability of ecosystem services</q>.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>As for the question whether science can or can't do X, that answer would depend on what relevant reliable sources say about the topic, and what is meant by 'science' in those sources (science as practiced at a specific moment in time? scientism? specific hegemonically influential scientific institutions?).<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>In any case, the question of what Wikipedia should do, broadly speaking comes down to simply that Wikipedia should cite and summarize relevant reliable sources. <a href="/wiki/User:Hydrangeans" title="User:Hydrangeans">Hydrangeans</a> (<a href="/wiki/She_(pronoun)" title="She (pronoun)">she/her</a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hydrangeans#top" title="User talk:Hydrangeans">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Hydrangeans" title="Special:Contributions/Hydrangeans">edits</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Hydrangeans-20241023081500-Fiveby-20241023050000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:15, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-11" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Sorry, failed to link the TEK article, and you are right it is not cited. Look at those which are such as <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1238218222">.mw-parser-output cite.citation{font-style:inherit;word-wrap:break-word}.mw-parser-output .citation q{quotes:"\"""\"""'""'"}.mw-parser-output .citation:target{background-color:rgba(0,127,255,0.133)}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-free.id-lock-free a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Lock-green.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited.id-lock-limited a,.mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration.id-lock-registration a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Lock-gray-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription.id-lock-subscription a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Lock-red-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Wikisource-logo.svg")right 0.1em center/12px no-repeat}body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-free a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background-size:contain;padding:0 1em 0 0}.mw-parser-output .cs1-code{color:inherit;background:inherit;border:none;padding:inherit}.mw-parser-output .cs1-hidden-error{display:none;color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-visible-error{color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{display:none;color:#085;margin-left:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-left{padding-left:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-right{padding-right:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .citation .mw-selflink{font-weight:inherit}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .cs1-format{font-size:95%}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}</style><cite id="CITEREFKimmerer2022" class="citation journal cs1">Kimmerer, Robin Wall (2022). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/52/5/432/236145">"Weaving Traditional Ecological Knowledge into Biological Education: A Call to Action"</a>. <a href="/wiki/BioScience" title="BioScience">BioScience</a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=BioScience&rft.atitle=Weaving+Traditional+Ecological+Knowledge+into+Biological+Education%3A+A+Call+to+Action&rft.date=2022&rft.aulast=Kimmerer&rft.aufirst=Robin+Wall&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Facademic.oup.com%2Fbioscience%2Farticle%2F52%2F5%2F432%2F236145&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia%3AFringe+theories%2FNoticeboard" class="Z3988">, Oxford University Press, 566 scholar cites.</dd> <dd>So on the "reliable sources" grounds that is what i was questioning in the prior thread. Why are you removing 'holistic' here. That is like removing <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://reasons.org/explore/blogs/todays-new-reason-to-believe/how-the-trinity-makes-sense-of-science">The Trinity</a> from <a href="/wiki/Hugh_Ross_(astrophysicist)" title="Hugh Ross (astrophysicist)">Max Hedroom</a>'s views if he were all over in the academic press. Not sorry philosophers, sorry <a href="/wiki/User:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User:ජපස">jps</a>. If you see it <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">reifying the false dichotomy between "Indigenous knowledge" and "science" as if Indigenous people aren't doing "real" science</q> that dichotomy is intentional and in the sources. It's got predictive power we are told, but it's not universal so not everyone can test that power. Sorry again. <a href="/wiki/User:Fiveby" title="User:Fiveby">fiveby</a>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fiveby" title="User talk:Fiveby">zero</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Fiveby-20241023133800-Hydrangeans-20241023081500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:38, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-12" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Thanks for the reminder, but what is interesting in this 2002 (note the date!) paper is the uncited stereotype: <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Western science is conducted in an academic culture in which nature is viewed strictly objectively.</q> I guess you could just write a sentence like that in a paper in 2002 and get away with it. I doubt that would pass the muster today! I don't think the "holism" is dichotomous, then. Now the framing seems to me to be more about eliminating intentional and unintentional bias against knowledge sourced to stakeholder communities. Does that track? <a href="/wiki/User:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User:ජපස">jps</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User talk:ජපස">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83-20241023144500-Fiveby-20241023133800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:45, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-13" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Yes i think reading the wrong sources might be part of my problem w/ TEK. I don't know if "Indigenous Science" is a concept built on or a reframing of TEK? But was reading sources which included both and seeing the text in the article (which you removed) which seemed to merge both. Anyway this: <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFLudwigPoliseli2018" class="citation journal cs1">Ludwig, David; Poliseli, Luana (2018). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6267627/">"Relating traditional and academic ecological knowledge"</a>. <a href="/wiki/Biol_Philos" class="mw-redirect" title="Biol Philos">Biol Philos</a>. 33 (5).</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=Biol+Philos&rft.atitle=Relating+traditional+and+academic+ecological+knowledge&rft.volume=33&rft.issue=5&rft.date=2018&rft.aulast=Ludwig&rft.aufirst=David&rft.au=Poliseli%2C+Luana&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fpmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov%2Farticles%2FPMC6267627%2F&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia%3AFringe+theories%2FNoticeboard" class="Z3988"> reads much better. <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">The aim of this article is to develop an account that relates the epistemic resources of TEK and AEK while avoiding both horns of the dilemma of assimilation and division</q>. Some criticism of a couple authors i was reading and more: <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">these accounts typically combine epistemic and political concerns</q> also <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">a simple holism–mechanism divide misrepresents the epistemic resources of both TEK and AEK</q> and <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">holders of TEK are perfectly capable of identifying mechanisms that underlie ecological phenomena</q>.</dd> <dd>Reading that source i don't think i need to "construct" or "fuse" or "legitimize" any epistemoligies do i? <a href="/wiki/User:Fiveby" title="User:Fiveby">fiveby</a>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fiveby" title="User talk:Fiveby">zero</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Fiveby-20241024025000-%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83-20241023144500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:50, 24 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-14" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>This indeed aligns more closely with how I see TEK presently being used. <a href="/wiki/User:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User:ජපස">jps</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User talk:ජපස">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83-20241024122200-Fiveby-20241024025000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:22, 24 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-15" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Christian Bible fundamentalists and UFO proponents haven't historically been the victims of colonialism, displacement, white supremacy, and genocide the way Indigenous peoples have been, and there aren't major fields of respected, university press-published academia that legitimize the former two while there is a wide range of academically published scholars who write about decolonizing knowledge.</q> While I do agree that traditional knowledge isn't necessarily on the same level as the former - even if Christian fundamentalists and ufologists had been the victims of colonialism, that wouldn't validate their views, even if they got more sympathy from some academics as a result. So that's not really relevant here. Aside from that, apparently some academics are legitimizing certain Western ideas of paranormal beliefs by appealing to non-Western beliefs, such as in <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://cup.columbia.edu/book/mind-beyond-brain/9780231189569">this book</a> mentioned earlier, from <a href="/wiki/Columbia_University_Press" title="Columbia University Press">Columbia University Press</a>. Even academics can be profringe. <a href="/wiki/User:Crossroads" title="User:Crossroads">Crossroads</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Crossroads" title="User talk:Crossroads">-talk-</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Crossroads-20241023163600-Hydrangeans-20241023041500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:36, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-16" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>What is relevant is that according to the pertinent <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories" title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories">content guideline</a>, in <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Wikipedia parlance, the term fringe theory is used in a broad sense to describe an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field</q>. If decolonizing knowledge is part of a prevailing view in the relevant particular fields—in this case the framework appears to prevail in fields like anthropology and in subject areas like studies of colonized peoples, histories of colonialism, etc.—then I'm not sure how that would qualify as 'fringe' under our content guideline. I or you having a personal disagreement with the conclusions of academics isn't on its own enough grounds to deem scholars 'profringe'. On Wikipedia, we don't try to lead; we follow the sources. If there is a substantial, reputed, legitimately published scholarly field concluding that conventional institutions/systems/patterns of contemporary science are colonized/part of colonialism (that's the impression I'm getting from the thread and the articles so far), then it's not a 'fringe' position in that field. It might not be a universally conceived idea across all individual humans, but a lot of reliable academic sources describe the world quite differently from how the average human might (e. g., <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://news.gallup.com/poll/647594/majority-credits-god-humankind-not-creationism.aspx">a god being in some way involved in human origins is a majority belief in the United States</a> but is not at all how science understands and describes the unguided and undirected process of evolution). <a href="/wiki/User:Hydrangeans" title="User:Hydrangeans">Hydrangeans</a> (<a href="/wiki/She_(pronoun)" title="She (pronoun)">she/her</a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hydrangeans#top" title="User talk:Hydrangeans">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Hydrangeans" title="Special:Contributions/Hydrangeans">edits</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Hydrangeans-20241024011100-Crossroads-20241023163600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:11, 24 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-17" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd> <dd>This is a red herring. Whether a group has been historically oppressed has nothing to do with whether ideas associated with that group are valid. By that logic, we should be giving significantly more weight to Mormon views on archaeology and history. Furthermore, there is no policy or guideline that says academic sources should automatically be considered reliable, and the ones you are referring to here clearly are not, because they will publish almost anything that conforms to their a priori ideology/worldview. <a href="/wiki/User:Partofthemachine" title="User:Partofthemachine">Partofthemachine</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Partofthemachine" title="User talk:Partofthemachine">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Partofthemachine-20241026191400-Hydrangeans-20241023041500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:14, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-18" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">By that logic, we should be giving significantly more weight to Mormon views on archaeology</q>: Suggesting that Mormons are as colonized, oppressed, and genocided as Native Americans—now that is itself a take quite out of step from academic consensus.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">there is no policy or guideline that says academic sources should automatically be considered reliable</q>: Not automatically—context still matters—but it seems significant to me that the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BESTSOURCES" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BESTSOURCES">neutral point of view policy</a> recommends looking to <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">books and journal articles</q> and that the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">reliable sources guideline</a> states that <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable, where the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses</q>. With that in mind, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:IDONTLIKETHAT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:IDONTLIKETHAT">personally disliking academics' conclusions</a> isn't on its own a good enough reason to disregard scholarship. <a href="/wiki/User:Hydrangeans" title="User:Hydrangeans">Hydrangeans</a> (<a href="/wiki/She_(pronoun)" title="She (pronoun)">she/her</a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hydrangeans#top" title="User talk:Hydrangeans">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Hydrangeans" title="Special:Contributions/Hydrangeans">edits</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Hydrangeans-20241026201700-Partofthemachine-20241026191400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:17, 26 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-19" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>I think the worst way to describe what is happening here is ignoring scholarship. Let's take a source and me for a malicious editor on WP. <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://onlinelibrary-wiley-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/doi/10.1002/1098-237X%28200101%2985%3A1%3C6%3A%3AAID-SCE3%3E3.0.CO%3B2-R">"Discovering indigenous science"</a> Cited in <a href="/wiki/Indigenous_science" title="Indigenous science">Indigenous science</a> for TEK a type. Respectable publication, well cited paper. But i can look through that paper and find anything i want, reword, add to the article and cite. I've just ignored the rest of the paper, and anyone the authors might cite for opposition to their views. Let's see, the authors don't like <a href="/wiki/Mertonian_norms" title="Mertonian norms">universalism</a> so how about:<style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1244412712">.mw-parser-output .templatequote{overflow:hidden;margin:1em 0;padding:0 32px}.mw-parser-output .templatequotecite{line-height:1.5em;text-align:left;margin-top:0}@media(min-width:500px){.mw-parser-output .templatequotecite{padding-left:1.6em}}</style><blockquote class="templatequote">When Western modern science (WMS) is defined as universal it does displace revelation-based knowledge (i.e., creation science); however, it also displaces pragmatic local indigenous knowledge</blockquote> and <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1244412712"><blockquote class="templatequote">it is possible that the universalist “gatekeeper” can be seen as increasingly problematic and even counter productive. </blockquote> then reword to</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <table class="cquote pullquote" role="presentation" style="margin:auto; border-collapse: collapse; border: none; width: auto;"> <tbody><tr> <td style="width: 20px; vertical-align: top; border: none; color: #B2B7F2; font-size: 40px; font-family: 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-weight: bold; line-height: .6em; text-align: left; padding: 10px 10px;">“ </td> <td style="vertical-align: top; border: none; padding: 4px 10px;">the universalist gatekeeper can be seen as problematic because it excludes both indigenous science and <a href="/wiki/Creation_science" title="Creation science">creation science</a> </td> <td style="width: 20px; vertical-align: bottom; border: none; color: #B2B7F2; font-size: 40px; font-family: 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-weight: bold; line-height: .6em; text-align: right; padding: 10px 10px;">” </td></tr> </tbody></table> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>How much scholarship have i ignored there? Even if i just included a faithful representation of the source in opposing universalism i've probably ignored some philosophy of science, history of science, and maybe a couple scientists.</dd> <dd>The paper tells me where the term "Indigenous Science" comes from and it's <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/sce.3730790507">"Science education in a multiscience perspective"</a>. Masakata Ogawa tells me he was influence by <a href="/wiki/Lucien_L%C3%A9vy-Bruhl" title="Lucien Lévy-Bruhl">Lucien Lévy-Bruhl</a> and quotes him. Lévy-Bruhl wrote a book called How Natives Think in 1910 and divided the world into two mindsets "primitive" and "modern". What could i do with that and how much scholarship would be ignored there?</dd> <dd>Those might be extreme examples—or maybe not—and might or might not be noticed by a page watcher. But it doesn't even really need to be done intentionally. Just incautiously like by the WikiED'ers at TEK. Just pick something, cut-and-paste, quote part and reworde part. There's a lot of things you can do with good sources, within policy, to make bad content and ignore scholarship. Yeah, i don't like it. <a href="/wiki/User:Fiveby" title="User:Fiveby">fiveby</a>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fiveby" title="User talk:Fiveby">zero</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Fiveby-20241027064800-Hydrangeans-20241026201700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:48, 27 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-20" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>To me this seems more like an NPOV issue than a FRINGE issue. As <a href="/wiki/User:Hydrangeans" title="User:Hydrangeans">Hydrangeans</a> said, if these fields are discussed in reliable sources (and they are) then we can and should have articles. The problem is that "decolonisation of X" is often a fig leaf for tearing X to shreds, and we shouldn't write our articles from that kind of "in-universe" perspective. Based on a glance at the first couple of articles mentioned, it looks like they lean that way, but this isn't my field so I don't think I'm the one to edit it. As for the comment that Indigenous peoples have been victims of colonisation while UFO believers have not: Perhaps that's why university presses give them a pass, but we shouldn't. One's level of privilege has zero bearing on the validity of their ontology. If a Holocaust survivor tells me climate change is a government hoax, they are wrong. We would thus be taking sides with an article, say, on "Survivors' views of climate change" that reports uncritically that climate change is an anti-Zionist scheme to ruin Israel, or whatever. <a href="/wiki/User:WeirdNAnnoyed" title="User:WeirdNAnnoyed">WeirdNAnnoyed</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WeirdNAnnoyed" title="User talk:WeirdNAnnoyed">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-WeirdNAnnoyed-20241023113000-Fiveby-20241023012500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:30, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-21" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I would say the whole talk of "other ways of knowing", "data that cannot be collected by science" and this "taking into account the suffering and exploitation, past and present, of certain peoples while evaluating their epistemologies" are very much FRINGE. Although, NPOV and FRINGE are very closely related, so it's probably both. <a href="/wiki/User:VdSV9" title="User:VdSV9">VdSV9</a>•<a href="/wiki/User_talk:VdSV9" title="User talk:VdSV9">♫</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-VdSV9-20241023125100-WeirdNAnnoyed-20241023113000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:51, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-22" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>As someone who has worked as a science professor at a university with a strong science-studies community, I can confidently say it is not at all fringe in the science studies and postcolonial studies disciplines. A good chunk of those scholars (maybe not a majority, but a very large minority) are pushing right-wing denialism of science and expertise (perhaps unintentionally) by dressing it up in left-wing tropes like decolonisation, queer liberation, and so on. "Other ways of knowing" is to the <a href="/wiki/Frantz_Fanon" title="Frantz Fanon">Frantz Fanon</a> set what "do your own research" is to the <a href="/wiki/Alex_Jones" title="Alex Jones">Alex Jones</a> set...trust your gut, TheyTM are lying to you. If a sizable minority of scholars holds a certain view, then by definition it can't be <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:FRINGE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:FRINGE">WP:FRINGE</a> even if it's demonstrably wrong. So we can have articles on these subjects, but we shouldn't give them false balance because, you know, reality exists. <a href="/wiki/User:WeirdNAnnoyed" title="User:WeirdNAnnoyed">WeirdNAnnoyed</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WeirdNAnnoyed" title="User talk:WeirdNAnnoyed">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-WeirdNAnnoyed-20241023204100-VdSV9-20241023125100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-23" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>And what is your source for your extraordinary claim about "A good chunk of those scholars"? <a href="/wiki/User:Horse_Eye%27s_Back" title="User:Horse Eye's Back">Horse Eye's Back</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Horse_Eye%27s_Back" title="User talk:Horse Eye's Back">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241024174700-WeirdNAnnoyed-20241023204100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:47, 24 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-24" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>The very scholars who write about this stuff very often characterize them as "marginalized", and "outside of mainstream science" (often using the misnomer "Western science"). Those fall very much in the definition of fringe (marginal happens to be synonymous). <a href="/wiki/User:VdSV9" title="User:VdSV9">VdSV9</a>•<a href="/wiki/User_talk:VdSV9" title="User talk:VdSV9">♫</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-VdSV9-20241024181200-WeirdNAnnoyed-20241023204100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:12, 24 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-25" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>I agree with Fiveby's comment above that talk of new "epistemologies, ontologies, and methodologies" is nonsense. And science-bashing is extremely harmful (having probably resulted in hundreds of thousands of extra deaths from Covid in the US). But I think that there is an inherent difference between #4 and #1-3 in Fiveby's list. Certain indigenous medical practices, while not science-based, are based on centuries of observation and experience. In modern times, scientists and pharmaceutical companies have studied some of them in a rigorous, scientific way and found that they could use them as a basis for developing new, safe, and effective medicines. For example <a href="/wiki/Tu_Youyou" title="Tu Youyou">Tu Youyou</a> was awarded the 2015 <a href="/wiki/Nobel_Prize_in_Physiology_or_Medicine" title="Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine">Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine</a> for (according to her Wikipedia BLP) discovering <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">artemisinin [...] and dihydroartemisinin, used to treat malaria, a breakthrough in twentieth-century tropical medicine, saving millions of lives in South China, Southeast Asia, Africa, and South America.</q> The Wikipedia article goes on to describe how she achieved this by studying a vast number of traditional Chinese medicines, finally finding two that were the basis of the medical breakthrough.</dd> <dd>It is also possible that a folk medical practice that's still followed in some parts of the world could be harmless and somewhat effective for some people, although inferior to the best modern medicine. People who are impoverished might not have access to the latter, in which case such a folk practice is better than nothing. (This is the viewpoint, for example, of the Cuban Ministry of Health, due to the extreme scarcity of certain imported pharmaceuticals due to the US embargo.)</dd> <dd>Because of these two possibilities, there is an inherent difference between folk knowledge and paranormal belief, superstition, and science-bashing. <a href="/wiki/User:NightHeron" title="User:NightHeron">NightHeron</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NightHeron" title="User talk:NightHeron">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-NightHeron-20241023141200-Fiveby-20241023012500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:12, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-26" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I think <a href="/wiki/Artemisinin" title="Artemisinin">artemisinin</a> is like one in the ten thousand TCM remedies that turned out to have promise, so perhaps isn't a representative example. <a href="/wiki/User:Bon_courage" title="User:Bon courage">Bon courage</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bon_courage" title="User talk:Bon courage">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Bon_courage-20241023142200-NightHeron-20241023141200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:22, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-27" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Sure, but has there ever been a medical breakthrough and a Nobel Prize for saving millions of lives that resulted from studying ten thousand superstitions or paranormal beliefs? <a href="/wiki/User:NightHeron" title="User:NightHeron">NightHeron</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NightHeron" title="User talk:NightHeron">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-NightHeron-20241023143200-Bon_courage-20241023142200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:32, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-28" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>TCM beliefs didn't contribute to artemisinin's discovery... Artemisinin just happened to be among the compounds whose effects had traditionally been ascribed to a fundamentally faulty mechanistic framework (or, maybe more likely, were retconned into a pseudo-traditionalist system by Maoists). <a href="/wiki/User:JoelleJay" title="User:JoelleJay">JoelleJay</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JoelleJay" title="User talk:JoelleJay">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-JoelleJay-20241024022000-NightHeron-20241023143200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:20, 24 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-29" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd> <dd>The artemisinin discovery story has also been heavily propagandized to promote TCM. I'm skeptical there was any real link between the purported TCM uses of the parent decoction and the antimalarial properties of its active compound. <a href="/wiki/User:JoelleJay" title="User:JoelleJay">JoelleJay</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JoelleJay" title="User talk:JoelleJay">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-JoelleJay-20241024020500-Bon_courage-20241023142200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:05, 24 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-30" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd> <dd>Your first paragraph summed up my thoughts too. The one issue I've run into IRL with this is that the lines between historical/folk knowledge/alternative ways of knowing and transitioning to science-bashing is a very thin line that is easy to cross. This often comes up at land-grant universities nowadays and especially can get contentious and difficult to navigate at those meetings, especially when you have groups of scientists and non-scientists involved.</dd> <dd>It's a good thing if the focus is on historical preservation of culture, finding accounts of plants to test in the current-day, etc., but I have seen talks where people try to label it Western vs. Indigenous ways of knowing that quickly gets into trouble. Labeling it "Western" science in that context, especially with dashes of colonialism mentioned in order to dismiss what is just simply science, can be a red flag. That starts to invoke a sort of special pleading to avoid the formal scientific process that we often see in other fringe topics. That's what it can easily become if a particular group is given "privileged" status in their knowledge even if that knowledge would violate something as simple as correlation ≠ causation.</dd> <dd>So I'm glad this has been brought up because we probably do need to keep a guardrail in mind for the above, but as others have mentioned, it's a bit of a walled garden topic. I can see challenges for us editors in terms of NPOV when it's advocates primarily publishing on the topic. <a href="/wiki/User:KoA" title="User:KoA">KoA</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KoA" title="User talk:KoA">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-KoA-20241023151400-NightHeron-20241023141200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:14, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-31" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>So, science has "legitimized other knowledge systems for indigenous peoples" in one case. Wikipedia cannot do that unless science does it before. --<a href="/wiki/User:Hob_Gadling" title="User:Hob Gadling">Hob Gadling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hob_Gadling" title="User talk:Hob Gadling">talk</a>)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>The more I think about it, the more I think we should merge <a href="/wiki/Traditional_ecological_knowledge" title="Traditional ecological knowledge">traditional ecological knowledge</a> and <a href="/wiki/Traditional_knowledge" title="Traditional knowledge">traditional knowledge</a>, and probably <a href="/wiki/Indigenous_science" title="Indigenous science">indigenous science</a> too. They are all the same basic topic as far as I can tell, and having it in one place will make it easier to keep an eye on so it doesn't accumulate stuff from the fringey end of this idea. <a href="/wiki/User:Crossroads" title="User:Crossroads">Crossroads</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Crossroads" title="User talk:Crossroads">-talk-</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Crossroads-20241023164100-Hemiauchenia-20241022234800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-32" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>It is an interesting idea... but I think the merge may be a pretty heavy lift as the articles are all strikingly different. Just to play devil's advocate, I think that there is a lot more to say about these concepts within the context of ecology since the idea of working with indigenous stakeholders has a much longer history in that discipline. <a href="/wiki/User:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User:ජපස">jps</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User talk:ජපස">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83-20241023171100-Crossroads-20241023164100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:11, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-33" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Crossroads" title="User:Crossroads">Crossroads</a> not sure merges are a good idea. I'm thinking TEK came from resource managers and tribes/First Nations in the 80's? I don't know about "traditional knowledge" as a concept, maybe earlier? "Indigenous Science" often points to TEK, but it came from educators in the late '90s. TEK is certainly applied in education, and likewise "Indigenous Science" to promote policy decisions. I'm having a difficult time when the sources start merging the two and not telling me exactly what they mean. <a href="/wiki/User:Fiveby" title="User:Fiveby">fiveby</a>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fiveby" title="User talk:Fiveby">zero</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Fiveby-20241028022200-Crossroads-20241023164100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:22, 28 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-34" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>Traditional knowledge and traditional ecological knowledge are not exactly the same thing. TK may incorporate TEK but incorporates things outside of Indigenous views on the natural environment (wildlife and the land). Look at <a href="/wiki/Inuit_Qaujimajatuqangit" title="Inuit Qaujimajatuqangit">Inuit Qaujimajatuqangit</a>, while incorporating Avatittinnik Kamatsiarniq (respect and care for the land, animals and the environment) one of the major aspects is Inuuqatigiitsiarniq (respecting others, relationships and caring for people) and most of the others are more than just a narrow focus on environmental concerns. <a href="/wiki/User:CambridgeBayWeather" title="User:CambridgeBayWeather">CambridgeBayWeather</a> (solidly non-human), <a href="/wiki/User_talk:CambridgeBayWeather" title="User talk:CambridgeBayWeather">Uqaqtuq (talk)</a>, <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/CambridgeBayWeather" title="Special:Contributions/CambridgeBayWeather">Huliva</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-CambridgeBayWeather-20241028194500-Crossroads-20241023164100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:45, 28 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-35" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>I'm not opposed to merging indigenous science into TK, but TEK is a distinct term, and while being a subset of TK, it has received substantial scholarly attention on its own. The article being in a poor state is not a reason to merge. <a href="/wiki/User:Kowal2701" title="User:Kowal2701">Kowal2701</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kowal2701" title="User talk:Kowal2701">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Kowal2701-20241120221200-Crossroads-20241023164100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:12, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-36" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> I just read through <a href="/wiki/Traditional_ecological_knowledge" title="Traditional ecological knowledge">traditional ecological knowledge</a> and I don't see the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:FRINGE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:FRINGE">WP:FRINGE</a> problem. Can someone explain what the problem is with reference to the current text? <a href="/wiki/User:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User:ජපස">jps</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User talk:ජපස">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83-20241023142200-Traditional_ecological_knowledge" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:22, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-37" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>The opening image that dichotomizes and essentializes TEK and "Western" science as "holistic" and "reductionist" respectively seems pretty sketchy. There's also a lot of overly long quotes and descriptions of examples/case studies, and it's somewhat disorganized. <a href="/wiki/User:Crossroads" title="User:Crossroads">Crossroads</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Crossroads" title="User talk:Crossroads">-talk-</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Crossroads-20241023164700-%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83-20241023142200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:47, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-38" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Thanks! That image needed to go, agreed. I found one on Commons that looked better to me. Poorly accounted-for, so we might want to contact the <a href="/wiki/Forest_Peoples_Programme" title="Forest Peoples Programme">Forest Peoples Programme</a> to see if they have information about the event that occurred in 2011 that we could add as a citation (although, vainly, I think the caption I wrote is relatively uncontroversial). <a href="/wiki/User:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User:ජපස">jps</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User talk:ජපස">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83-20241023170600-Crossroads-20241023164700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:06, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-39" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>I have started the process of copyediting. There are issues here with undergraditis writing with value-judgements and dated jargon. The temptation of the prior authors (and some of the older sources, even) to slip into the false dichotomy between "western science" and "noble savage" seems particularly acute. Doing a quick search for the word "western" yielded some places where rewording was possible. <a href="/wiki/User:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User:ජපස">jps</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User talk:ජපස">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83-20241023172500-Crossroads-20241023164700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:25, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-40" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>I did a little more work on cleaning up problematic writing. This is definitely one of those cases where the poor quality of writing by assigned students was dragging down the content. However, most of what was included was fine. It's just really, really bad writing. <a href="/wiki/User:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User:ජපස">jps</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User talk:ජපස">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83-20241024012200-Crossroads-20241023164700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:22, 24 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-41" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>Okay, I think I'm done with my copyedit. I did not remove any sources. I pared down a lot of the unnecessary text. The page was a victim of undergraditis and might be a good object lesson for what happens when half a dozen classes get a hold of an article and let unprepared college students just add text in the hopes of meeting arbitrary word counts. One thing that probably needs emphasizing more with our WikiEdu collabs is that less is more, brevity is the soul of wit, vigorous writing is concise, etc. <a href="/wiki/User:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User:ජපස">jps</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User talk:ජපස">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83-20241024152000-Crossroads-20241023164700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:20, 24 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-42" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Taking hatchet to sources, rv anything where you object. Let me know if you saw any sources which should be included be aren't. <a href="/wiki/User:Fiveby" title="User:Fiveby">fiveby</a>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fiveby" title="User talk:Fiveby">zero</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Fiveby-20241024162900-%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83-20241024152000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:29, 24 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-43" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I trust your judgement. <a href="/wiki/User:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User:ජපස">jps</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User talk:ජපස">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83-20241024164300-Fiveby-20241024162900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:43, 24 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-44" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <a href="/wiki/Lucien_L%C3%A9vy-Bruhl" title="Lucien Lévy-Bruhl">Lucien Lévy-Bruhl</a> (<a href="/wiki/Special:EditPage/Lucien_L%C3%A9vy-Bruhl" title="Special:EditPage/Lucien Lévy-Bruhl">edit</a> | <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lucien_L%C3%A9vy-Bruhl&veaction=edit">visual edit</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:PageHistory/Lucien_L%C3%A9vy-Bruhl" title="Special:PageHistory/Lucien Lévy-Bruhl">history</a>) · <a href="/wiki/Talk:Lucien_L%C3%A9vy-Bruhl" title="Talk:Lucien Lévy-Bruhl">Article talk</a> (<a href="/wiki/Special:EditPage/Talk:Lucien_L%C3%A9vy-Bruhl" title="Special:EditPage/Talk:Lucien Lévy-Bruhl">edit</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:PageHistory/Talk:Lucien_L%C3%A9vy-Bruhl" title="Special:PageHistory/Talk:Lucien Lévy-Bruhl">history</a>) · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lucien_L%C3%A9vy-Bruhl&action=watch">Watch</a> <dl><dd>I'm leaving the article alone because Tollefsen tells me<a href="#cite_note-FOOTNOTETollefsen200920-1">[1]</a> there is some discussion about anomalies being a signal to the reader and might be a bad thing to remove them. <a href="/wiki/User:Fiveby" title="User:Fiveby">fiveby</a>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fiveby" title="User talk:Fiveby">zero</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Fiveby-20241027154600-Traditional_ecological_knowledge" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:46, 27 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-45" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I'm not sure what to make of that. Regardless, bad content (either false or undue) should still be removed. <a href="/wiki/User:Crossroads" title="User:Crossroads">Crossroads</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Crossroads" title="User talk:Crossroads">-talk-</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Crossroads-20241101212100-Fiveby-20241027154600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:21, 1 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-46" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Was just angry about the "ignoring scholarship" comments. I can sure go add to his article that he was an armchair anthropologist who never went into the field and based everything on testimony of missionaries. And:<link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1244412712"><blockquote class="templatequote">Levy-Bruhl had imputed to Africans a certain lack of mental skills and he had suggested that such a lack was due to the fact that they were black. Thus, his conclusion held that black people were incapable of logical and coherent thought. Instead, they tended to wallow in contradictions and could not distinguish between what he called the supernatural and reality.<div class="templatequotecite">— <cite><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Bernard-Matolino/publication/272472206_Tempels'_Philosophical_Racialism/links/5b8d0b54a6fdcc5f8b7ac87c/Tempels-Philosophical-Racialism.pdf">[1]</a></cite></div></blockquote> Then start in on <a href="/wiki/Indigenous_science" title="Indigenous science">Indigenous science</a>, all within P&G, because i don't like it. <a href="/wiki/User:Fiveby" title="User:Fiveby">fiveby</a>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fiveby" title="User talk:Fiveby">zero</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Fiveby-20241103130200-Crossroads-20241101212100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:02, 3 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-47" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li> This discussion has been <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:APPNOTE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:APPNOTE">listed</a> at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Environment" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Environment">WikiProject Environment</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of the Americas">WikiProject Indigenous peoples of the Americas</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Indigenous_peoples_of_North_America" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America">WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countering systemic bias">WikiProject Countering systemic bias</a>, and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Discrimination" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Discrimination">WikiProject Discrimination</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Hydrangeans" title="User:Hydrangeans">Hydrangeans</a> (<a href="/wiki/She_(pronoun)" title="She (pronoun)">she/her</a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hydrangeans#top" title="User talk:Hydrangeans">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Hydrangeans" title="Special:Contributions/Hydrangeans">edits</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Hydrangeans-20241024004900-Fiveby-20241027154600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:49, 24 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-48" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></li></ul> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1232521257">.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk{margin:auto 0;border:1px dashed var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:4px;padding-left:1em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk-title{font-weight:bold}</style><div class="reflist-talk"> References <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1239543626">.mw-parser-output .reflist{margin-bottom:0.5em;list-style-type:decimal}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .reflist{font-size:90%}}.mw-parser-output .reflist .references{font-size:100%;margin-bottom:0;list-style-type:inherit}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-2{column-width:30em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-3{column-width:25em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns{margin-top:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns ol{margin-top:0}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns li{page-break-inside:avoid;break-inside:avoid-column}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-alpha{list-style-type:upper-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-roman{list-style-type:upper-roman}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-alpha{list-style-type:lower-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-greek{list-style-type:lower-greek}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-roman{list-style-type:lower-roman}</style><div class="reflist"> <div class="mw-references-wrap"><ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-FOOTNOTETollefsen200920-1"><a href="#cite_ref-FOOTNOTETollefsen200920_1-0">^</a> <a href="#CITEREFTollefsen2009">Tollefsen 2009</a>, p. 20. </li> </ol></div></div> </div> <ul><li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFTollefsen2009" class="citation journal cs1">Tollefsen, Deborah Perron Tollefsen (2009). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www-cambridge-org.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/core/journals/episteme/article/wikipedia-and-the-epistemology-of-testimony/B3FDC5C4304FBA1F3FD30F9EDA90BC28">"Wikipedia and the Epistemology of Testimony"</a>. <a href="/wiki/Episteme_(journal)" title="Episteme (journal)">Epistem</a>. 6 (1). Cambridge University Press: 8–24.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=Epistem&rft.atitle=Wikipedia+and+the+Epistemology+of+Testimony&rft.volume=6&rft.issue=1&rft.pages=8-24&rft.date=2009&rft.aulast=Tollefsen&rft.aufirst=Deborah+Perron+Tollefsen&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww-cambridge-org.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org%2Fcore%2Fjournals%2Fepisteme%2Farticle%2Fwikipedia-and-the-epistemology-of-testimony%2FB3FDC5C4304FBA1F3FD30F9EDA90BC28&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia%3AFringe+theories%2FNoticeboard" class="Z3988"></li> <li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFSegal2007" class="citation journal cs1">Segal, Robert A. (2007). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=ab5c73f72f47ceb312b361aefec4ed1f96c63387">"Jung and Lévy-Bruhl"</a>. <a href="/w/index.php?title=Journal_of_Analytical_Psychology&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Journal of Analytical Psychology (page does not exist)">Journal of Analytical Psychology</a>. 52: 635–658.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=Journal+of+Analytical+Psychology&rft.atitle=Jung+and+L%C3%A9vy-Bruhl&rft.volume=52&rft.pages=635-658&rft.date=2007&rft.aulast=Segal&rft.aufirst=Robert+A.&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fciteseerx.ist.psu.edu%2Fdocument%3Frepid%3Drep1%26type%3Dpdf%26doi%3Dab5c73f72f47ceb312b361aefec4ed1f96c63387&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia%3AFringe+theories%2FNoticeboard" class="Z3988"></li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Intuition_and_animism_at_the_article_Traditional_knowledge" data-mw-thread-id="h-Intuition_and_animism_at_the_article_Traditional_knowledge-Traditional_ecological_knowledge-20241119012500">Intuition and animism at the article Traditional knowledge</h3> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Intuition and animism at the article Traditional knowledge" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> </div> Some of the material I had removed from <a href="/wiki/Traditional_knowledge" title="Traditional knowledge">Traditional knowledge</a> around the time I opened this thread has been <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Traditional_knowledge&diff=prev&oldid=1257998504">reverted</a> back into the article by the editor who added it originally. The text claims, <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">These systems of knowledge are often guided by <a href="/wiki/Intuition" title="Intuition">intuition</a>, and generally based on accumulations of <a href="/wiki/Empirical" class="mw-redirect" title="Empirical">empirical</a> observation and on interaction with the environment.</q> and, as before, cites <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://journals.psu.edu/td/article/download/1373/827">this</a> 2012 paper, which on Google Scholar only got 16 cites in well over a decade (way less than many other similarly aged papers on TK). The paper includes something called "revealed knowledge" in IK/TK, and explicitly supports animism, supernaturalism, and misuses of concepts like "expanded" consciousness and quantum entanglement: <ul><li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Intuition, particularly in its transrational form, refers to knowing without knowing how you came to know (Bernstein, 2005; see also Barrett, in press). It goes beyond patterned understandings based on experience (for example, those small intuitive leaps an experienced practitioner might make when encountering a new problem to solve) to include insights that in some cases transcend time (McCraty et al, 2004) and physical location (e.g. a mother who knows her child is hurt even when he may be in another country). To distinguish this kind of intuition from intuition based primarily on experience, we use the term transrational intuition throughout the rest of this paper. Such transrational intuitions may come through dreams, visions, gut feelings, a sudden word or phrase that pops into one's head, a "felt sense" or an unexplainable awareness of the "right" answer, or way to proceed. Transrational forms of intuition are the result of an expanded consciousness, and are accessible to all humans regardless of cultural background. They are also in alignment with many of the spiritual aspects of Indigenous knowledges. However, since they “fall outside the pale of what professional cultures are willing to accept” they are often dismissed</q></li></ul> <ul><li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Transrational forms of intuition and animism are linked....An animist ontology supports a relational interaction with those who are not human, and acknowledges that plants, animals, and spirits exist in communicative relationship with humans. Insights received often take the form of dreams, visions, a felt sense, and so forth – ways of knowing which in Eurocentric traditions, are generally attributed to a brilliant human mind (Snyder, cited by Taylor, 2005), a pathology (Vaughn & Walsh, 2000), or a higher power (e.g. Abell, 1994). From an animist perspective, these insights are contributed from non-human “persons” with whom one is in relation (Harvey, 2006a; Stuckey, 2010) and are offered to humans who have the ability, and are open, to receiving them.</q></li></ul> <ul><li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">The intermingling of learned knowledge with other forms of knowing reflects the existence of a realm of knowledge and knowing well beyond conscious thought – an idea which is well accepted in many knowledge traditions (Meyer, 2008). Recent theorizing in the areas of, human consciousness, quantum entanglement, spiritual knowing and intuition (e.g. Bradley, 2007; Hart et al., 2000; Sinclair, 2011) is deepening understandings of forms of knowing that are not fully premised on rational analysis and observable phenomena.</q></li></ul> I think this sort of thing is very clearly fringe. The editor also cited <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www-sciencedirect-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/science/article/pii/S0016328722001835">this</a> paper this time, which only mentions "intuitive" briefly in passing. In sum, I don't think the idea that knowledge based on intuition, let alone "transrational" intuition, is something mainstream belongs in Wikipedia at all. <a href="/wiki/User:Crossroads" title="User:Crossroads">Crossroads</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Crossroads" title="User talk:Crossroads">-talk-</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Crossroads-20241119012500-Intuition_and_animism_at_the_article_Traditional_knowledge" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:25, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-49" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>There is a tremendous amount of literature here, coming from multiple disciplines, and many of the authors are not very careful with what they say or how they describe 'knowledge'. It seems to me those papers coming from post-colonial studies and the field of education are the worst and most incautious. This <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959378021000017">2021 literature review</a> has been very helpful for me in organizing the concepts and <a href="/wiki/Fikret_Berkes" title="Fikret Berkes">Fikret Berkes</a>' Sacred Ecology is excellent for <a href="/wiki/Traditional_ecological_knowledge" title="Traditional ecological knowledge">Traditional ecological knowledge</a>.</dd> <dd>At heart much of this is political and authors are seemingly willing to make outlandish and unsupported statements in order to promote their views. In my opinion everything here, despite publication within academic journals, should be treated as merely political screeds and undue for inclusion until demonstrated otherwise. Hopefully a careful author such as Berkes can be found for TK/IK. <a href="/wiki/User:Fiveby" title="User:Fiveby">fiveby</a>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fiveby" title="User talk:Fiveby">zero</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Fiveby-20241119120700-Crossroads-20241119012500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:07, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-50" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> <dl><dd>One thing that may help here with 'animism' is that is clearly within the domain of TEK. Berkes does cover animism so you could shunt all that content over to the TEK article and i'll make sure that it follows the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BESTSOURCES" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BESTSOURCES">WP:BESTSOURCES</a> policy. In fact anything connected to the land people live on or or how people interact with it should be primarily described in the TEK article. <a href="/wiki/User:Fiveby" title="User:Fiveby">fiveby</a>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fiveby" title="User talk:Fiveby">zero</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Fiveby-20241119122400-Crossroads-20241119012500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:24, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-51" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>The editor also added <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://link-springer-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/article/10.1007/s11422-007-9067-8">this</a> source to support their claim about intuition. But here too are multiple problems - this source is 17 years old and engages in an essentialized dichotomy between "Eurocentric" and indigenous knowledge (a claim already identified above as outdated and inaccurate), attributes intuition to science as well, intuition is only a minor point, and makes some claims that legitimize things that are clearly fringe like <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">This holistic spiritual power expands the sources of data for IWLN to include, for instance, dreams, visions, and intuitions.... Some of these data (observations and images) are collected systematically in, for example, vision quests, fasting, smudging, prayer, sweat lodges, and various ceremonies.</q></dd> <dd>In any case, based on what I've read, I've not seen intuition mentioned much in recent sources on the mainstream academic use of indigenous knowledge, and certainly not supporting its <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:UNDUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:UNDUE">WP:UNDUE</a> emphasis in the lead (and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:LEADFOLLOWSBODY" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:LEADFOLLOWSBODY">not in the body, against guidelines</a>). I've removed the claim again and pointed the editor here. <a href="/wiki/User:Crossroads" title="User:Crossroads">Crossroads</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Crossroads" title="User talk:Crossroads">-talk-</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Crossroads-20241120203800-Fiveby-20241119122400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:38, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-52" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Masakata Ogawa, the coauthor on that paper, is the science educator i mentioned above. First to use the term <a href="/wiki/Indigenous_science" title="Indigenous science">indigenous science</a> and based on the ideas of <a href="/wiki/Lucien_L%C3%A9vy-Bruhl" title="Lucien Lévy-Bruhl">Lévy-Bruhl</a>. I had a source for Lévy-Bruhl's popularity in education in the '70s through the '90s and will need to find it again. I'd really like to describe the origin here along the lines of some kind of <a href="/wiki/Race_realism" class="mw-redirect" title="Race realism">race realism</a> and there are probably sources available to do something like that. It probably wouldn't be a fair or neutral way to approach the topic tho. Just need to find time to work on the articles. <a href="/wiki/User:Fiveby" title="User:Fiveby">fiveby</a>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fiveby" title="User talk:Fiveby">zero</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Fiveby-20241120210100-Crossroads-20241120203800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:01, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-53" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I mean if that's the history, then so be it - I support adding it. I myself have certainly noticed that ethnic/racial essentialism and '<a href="/wiki/Noble_savage" class="mw-redirect" title="Noble savage">noble savage</a>' tropes often crop up in this discourse, with some people basically just taking racist stereotypes and inverting the polarity of which traits are considered good and bad. At least we have more recent sources with a more moderate and reasonable take on things, as you've noted. <a href="/wiki/User:Crossroads" title="User:Crossroads">Crossroads</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Crossroads" title="User talk:Crossroads">-talk-</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Crossroads-20241120211600-Fiveby-20241120210100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-54" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>And <a href="/wiki/User:Kowal2701" title="User:Kowal2701">Kowal2701</a> just reverted my changes and citation of newer review sources in favor of the problematic sources described above. Kowal2701, the discussion is here, at a public noticeboard; per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:MULTI" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:MULTI">WP:MULTI</a>, we are not going to have multiple places talking about the same thing or have it somewhere less visible like an article talk page. Also, per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ONUS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ONUS">WP:ONUS</a>, you need to get consensus to include these claims about "intuition" and "holistic" before they would be kept. <a href="/wiki/User:Crossroads" title="User:Crossroads">Crossroads</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Crossroads" title="User talk:Crossroads">-talk-</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Crossroads-20241120212500-Fiveby-20241120210100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-55" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>See <a href="/wiki/Talk:Traditional_knowledge#November_2024" title="Talk:Traditional knowledge">Talk:Traditional knowledge#November 2024</a>. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:AGF" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:AGF">WP:AGF</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Kowal2701" title="User:Kowal2701">Kowal2701</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kowal2701" title="User talk:Kowal2701">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Kowal2701-20241120212700-Crossroads-20241120212500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:27, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-56" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I am AGF. As I stated there, aside from the first source in that heading you opened, which only mentions intuition and holism in passing, all of these sources are quite old, which has been identified above as an issue in this research field. Per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:MULTI" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:MULTI">WP:MULTI</a>, this should be discussed in one place, and here is better since there are more eyes and editors with experience with this. <a href="/wiki/User:Crossroads" title="User:Crossroads">Crossroads</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Crossroads" title="User talk:Crossroads">-talk-</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Crossroads-20241120213400-Kowal2701-20241120212700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:34, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-57" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> P.S. Looking into one of the authors (Barrett), I also found out about <a href="#Intuitive_Interspecies_Communication_(IIC)">#Intuitive Interspecies Communication (IIC)</a>, described in that heading below. <a href="/wiki/User:Crossroads" title="User:Crossroads">Crossroads</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Crossroads" title="User talk:Crossroads">-talk-</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Crossroads-20241119033500-Intuition_and_animism_at_the_article_Traditional_knowledge" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:35, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-58" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <div class="outdent-template" style="position:relative;left:1px;"></div> Reposting here from <a href="/wiki/Talk:Traditional_knowledge#November_2024" title="Talk:Traditional knowledge">Talk: Traditional knowledge#November 2024</a> Hi @<a href="/wiki/User:Crossroads" title="User:Crossroads">Crossroads</a>, I agree that sentence isn't good and needs to be changed. The purpose of that sentence is to explain the epistemological methods rather than to give another definition. Sources comparing TK with modern science say it is intuitive and holistic, while modern science is reductionistic and analytical. I appreciate your concern over fringe implications, that was not what I was trying to do. <ul><li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Modern science favors analytical and reductionist methods, whereas, the traditional knowledge is towards intuitive and holistic view.</q> <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0016328722001835">[2]</a></li> <li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">TEK has been accounted as intuitive and holistic as opposed to the pre dominantly analytical-reductionist character of Western science.</q> <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/7503809/9557-36086-1-PB_1_-libre.pdf?1390851691=&response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DAnalyzing_Knowledge_as_Part_of_a_Cultura.pdf&Expires=1732141066&Signature=MaOsn-viODV3xb4-X1JI19mr8nYkF5ykScytb7LPFSMrjMaBsotYzbuY45HYJ7bL3oSvr85Irql0ME~gcG8xvfWEwpWznmZp-4ESoezNyQTMM35fdP0CHdzh~Gv~~kjbqvfChND4hjmYXy-pvFdWR6IVsmd7MF0~j~OSdnzWymzZ2DiBw9em94xhdW44-xLtjjo0~hbdbDJp~VSbVMhBsQPg~ujrGjRhFxNPTNIltm2HwM5JZDI30qnwzJAefJFzMpkTPTpSAX3vklz8g3YVtq6rtDgoK16--XZKaSMPjtEl1zp9lIgKrry0QQgX-Y~nTx1gKi0x~G5ETbx7S7sL~g__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA">[3]</a></li> <li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">From the brief examples given above, it appears that by the standards of the scientific approach, TEK more closely resembles science than lay-knowledge. However, some real differences exist between TEK and science in that non-test able phenomena such as intuition and beliefs, as well as inter-generational and personal observations, are components ofknowledge in TEK.</q> <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://iportal.usask.ca/docs/ind_art_cjns_v22/cjnsv.22no.2_pg327-360.pdf">[4]</a></li> <li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">TEK is holistic; Western science is reductionist. Western science deliberately breaks down data into smaller elements to understand whole and complex phenomena. For TEK, all elements of matter are viewed as interconnected and cannot be understood in isolation. • • • • TEK is intuitive in its mode of thinking; Western science is analytical. Intuitive thought emphasizes emotional involvement and subjective certainty of understanding. Analytical thought emphasizes abstract reasoning and the need to separate oneself from that being observed and to learn about it through various replicable measurements.</q> <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://idl-bnc-idrc.dspacedirect.org/server/api/core/bitstreams/1f52c365-80f7-441f-a07f-18e91277507b/content">[5]</a></li> <li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Western science favours analytical and reductionist methods as opposed to the more intuitive and holistic view often found in traditional knowledge.</q> <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.1038/sj.embor.7400693">[6]</a></li></ul> (@<a href="/wiki/User:Crossroads" title="User:Crossroads">Crossroads</a> you may want to move your comment under here) <a href="/wiki/User:Kowal2701" title="User:Kowal2701">Kowal2701</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kowal2701" title="User talk:Kowal2701">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Kowal2701-20241120213700-Intuition_and_animism_at_the_article_Traditional_knowledge" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:37, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-59" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Instead of looking for sources to justify certain terms, you should instead look at recent, reputable reviews and see how they describe the topic, like <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959378021000017">this one</a>. This sort of essentialized dichotomy is not favored more recently. The sources you cite here are (after the first one) from 2008, 2002, 1992, and 2006 respectively, all over 15 years old. And the first one doesn't really justify these descriptors much, and in any case is just one paper in <a href="/wiki/Futures_(journal)" title="Futures (journal)">Futures</a>, not a review. Fiveby, others, what do you think of these descriptors - should they be added? And also, why aren't they in the body? Even if they are used, it should be clearly delineated why the use of intuition and holism is academically justified; vague gestures towards colonialism or spirituality definitely don't explain why traditional knowledge should be used in environmental management, for example. <a href="/wiki/User:Crossroads" title="User:Crossroads">Crossroads</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Crossroads" title="User talk:Crossroads">-talk-</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Crossroads-20241120215000-Kowal2701-20241120213700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-60" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>When I first researched this I wasn't <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">looking for sources to justify certain terms</q>. My impression is that there is academic consensus regarding this dating back to the 2000s, such that further research repeating the same points wasn't necessary. The 2023 source repeating this is evidence these terms haven't fallen out of favour for valid, substantial reasons. That source you've linked supports the holistic descriptor. I can't find more recent sources comparing TK with Western/modern science. The TK article is C-class and has practically no information directly on the epistemologies themselves. <a href="/wiki/User:Kowal2701" title="User:Kowal2701">Kowal2701</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kowal2701" title="User talk:Kowal2701">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Kowal2701-20241120220200-Crossroads-20241120215000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-61" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>"My impression is that there is academic consensus regarding this..." Absolutely not. Please read our <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BESTSOURCES" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BESTSOURCES">best source</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959378021000017">here</a> for organizing these (and as far as i am away the only source which has yet even attempted to do so) <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Faced with a vast and fragmented body of literature, scholars interested in the role of knowledge for sustainability must either limit themselves to a single facet of knowledge, or confront the difficult task of navigating a multi-disciplinary and often contradictory maze of concepts.</q> These are encyclopedia articles, that "difficult task" is ours, we need to organize topics, define terms, and explain concepts for the reader.</dd> <dd>See the section: Knowledge-related concepts are often mentioned, but rarely in focus or rigorously addressed. We need to take content from those works which are in focus and rigorously address a concept. If you are just pulling quotes from a random selection of papers the articles will be a mishmash of concepts and explain nothing to the reader.</dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Crossroads" title="User:Crossroads">Crossroads</a>, have you had a chance to go through the review article's way of organizing the topics? We should probably go back to your idea of merging at some point, might help with setting scope for the articles. <a href="/wiki/User:Fiveby" title="User:Fiveby">fiveby</a>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fiveby" title="User talk:Fiveby">zero</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Fiveby-20241121150000-Kowal2701-20241120220200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-62" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>This is about whether the descriptors “intuitive” and “holistic” should be used in the article? There is consensus that TK/TEK is both intuitive and holistic.</dd> <dd>Are you referring to the use of TK, IK, TEK etc.? I agree it’s an issue, and not an easy one for us to solve. Note that that source is just on sustainability science, which is not the only discipline involved with TK, others include anthropology and archaeology. The article says most consider TEK a subset of TK/IK <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">that specifically deals with ecological processes and humans’ roles in them</q>. They should be separate articles. Whether we preclude articles nominally on TK from the TEK article, I don’t know. We could assess whether the author really means TEK based on their definition and focus/discipline? That is probably too much OR <a href="/wiki/User:Kowal2701" title="User:Kowal2701">Kowal2701</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kowal2701" title="User talk:Kowal2701">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Kowal2701-20241121172800-Fiveby-20241121150000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:28, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-63" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>Here is <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/gkmc-01-2022-0011/full/html">another source</a> which discusses the terms IK, TK, and LK, as well as the various disciplines. Relying on and prioritising one source solely on sustainability science is incredibly problematic. <a href="/wiki/User:Kowal2701" title="User:Kowal2701">Kowal2701</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kowal2701" title="User talk:Kowal2701">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Kowal2701-20241121193300-Fiveby-20241121150000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:33, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-64" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">There is consensus that TK/TEK is both intuitive and holistic.</q> But there is no consensus on what "intuitive" and "holistic" mean. We can certainly document that these descriptors have been attached to these ideas by certain sources, but I think that's as far as it goes. <a href="/wiki/User:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User:ජපස">jps</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User talk:ජපස">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83-20241121223700-Kowal2701-20241121193300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:37, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-65" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Agreed, but at the very least it gives a couple page links so readers can get a rough idea. I think the comparison to modern science is useful to the reader as it puts it in relation to something they’re likely more familiar with, and it also begs the question “how do these knowledge systems fit into contemporary society (if at all)” which is a focal point of discussion. <a href="/wiki/User:Kowal2701" title="User:Kowal2701">Kowal2701</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kowal2701" title="User talk:Kowal2701">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Kowal2701-20241121231700-%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83-20241121223700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:17, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-66" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I don't think it has been demonstrated that there is an academic consensus that TK is intuitive or holistic. A smattering of 15+ year old sources and one recent one does not a consensus make, especially when more recent sources eschew them or note that science also involves these traits to some degree. (The review linked above did mention "holistic" for IK specifically, but even then it depends on the overall conclusions which I'd have to look at again.)</dd> <dd>Re Fiveby, I haven't had time yet to give the full review a detailed read. I'm not sure yet how best to organize it all but I think merges of some kind may be called for.</dd> <dd>Also noting here that another discussion has opened up on the talk page there: <a href="/wiki/Talk:Traditional_knowledge#Science_and_education" title="Talk:Traditional knowledge">Talk:Traditional_knowledge#Science_and_education</a>. I think the issues raised in Science are highly relevant. <a href="/wiki/User:Crossroads" title="User:Crossroads">Crossroads</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Crossroads" title="User talk:Crossroads">-talk-</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Crossroads-20241122051900-Kowal2701-20241121231700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:19, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-67" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>There’s consensus among sources that compare TK to science, I’d only support its inclusion in that context. Where has it been said that science is intuitive and holistic to some degree? <a href="/wiki/User:Kowal2701" title="User:Kowal2701">Kowal2701</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kowal2701" title="User talk:Kowal2701">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Kowal2701-20241122074600-Crossroads-20241122051900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:46, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-68" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I have been reading a lot of sources which are indicating that the sort of <a href="/wiki/Conflict_thesis" title="Conflict thesis">conflict thesis</a> treatment of TK/IK and "science" may be problematic from the perspective of science being somehow different than the works and process of TK/IK. Claims that TK/IK are not science is an awkward and arguably fallacious form of <a href="/wiki/Demarcation_problem" title="Demarcation problem">demarcation</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User:ජපස">jps</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User talk:ජපස">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83-20241122183200-Kowal2701-20241122074600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:32, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-69" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I've also seen those arguments but wasn't sure how to treat them. I think it's more helpful to look at these as general differences, it's why sources tend to say "modern science" and "Western science" (Western just means European-derived/Eurocentric, see <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=z0lrOjE8ZRkC&pg=PA1&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=1#v=onepage&q&f=false">this book pgs.1-2</a>) rather than just "science". Something like:</dd> <dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">These knowledge systems tend to be <a href="/wiki/Intuition" title="Intuition">intuitive</a> and <a href="/wiki/Holism" title="Holism">holistic</a>, in contrast to modern/Western science which tends to be <a href="/wiki/Analysis" title="Analysis">analytical</a> and <a href="/wiki/Reductionism" title="Reductionism">reductionistic</a>.</q> <a href="/wiki/User:Kowal2701" title="User:Kowal2701">Kowal2701</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kowal2701" title="User talk:Kowal2701">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Kowal2701-20241122190900-%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83-20241122183200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:09, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-70" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>But "Western", of course, is completely inaccurate these days. It's a truly globalized endeavor. "Modern science" seems also a misnomer. "Academic science" may be closer, but it's also a bit arbitrary. After all, it's not as though traditional practitioners are just not doing science when they, for example, use their knowledge to track changes in the forest, for example. The critics seem to be pointing out that this bifurcation between *science* and TK/IK is a kind of <a href="/wiki/False_dichotomy" class="mw-redirect" title="False dichotomy">false dichotomy</a> that may be losing its utility.</dd> <dd>In collaborations where TK/IK holders and academic scientists work together, I don't see that the main conflict is between these cultures but rather it seems like the collaborations work to advance the interests of both groups in a synergistic fashion.</dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User:ජපස">jps</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User talk:ජපස">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83-20241122210100-Kowal2701-20241122190900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:01, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-71" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>The other issue, of course, is that the hegemony which the source you are citing is complaining about goes well beyond science. It is arguably the same hegemonic structure the book itself is laboring under (academic discourse) and it is mirrored here at this website what with its glorification of the written word, its preference for chain-of-custody arguments when it comes to knowledge, and its linguistic preferences. <a href="/wiki/User:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User:ජපස">jps</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User talk:ජපස">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83-20241122210400-Kowal2701-20241122190900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:04, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-72" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I agree with you to a certain extent. That book is written by a Norwegian Africanist, it's important to treat it as an African POV. Colonialism has had wide reaching, long lasting impacts which are still being felt. Consider the psychological impacts on both the individual and community. African states inherited and still use European and colonial states and institutions. Their education systems were largely designed by Europeans and inherited. The colonial and European/indigenous paradigm is viewed as a way to parse and remove European elements and reclaim a distinct identity. I agree that the hegemonic structure goes well beyond science. Regarding this website, see <a href="/wiki/User:Pgallert" title="User:Pgallert">Pgallert</a>'s <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Oral_citations_experiment" title="Wikipedia:Oral citations experiment">WP:Oral citations experiment</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Kowal2701" title="User:Kowal2701">Kowal2701</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kowal2701" title="User talk:Kowal2701">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Kowal2701-20241122212400-%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83-20241122210400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:24, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-73" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I'm sympathetic to the desire to add local cultural relevance in the post-colonial era, but something like <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">remov[ing] European elements</q> is deeply concerning. Europeans (among others, yes) have historically made major contributions to knowledge and science, and it would be <a href="/wiki/Reactionary" title="Reactionary">reactionary</a> and anti-scientific to erase that. European advances themselves built on earlier work from the Middle East and India. We should (and are making great progress on) bring in contributions from other cultures (both going forward and, where appropriate, from the past), but we cannot erase past advances. Nations like Japan and China that have become or are becoming wealthy, globally influential in science, and are as non- or post-colonial as can be, didn't get there by removing European advances in knowledge or through a total rejection of European-origin systems (e.g. universities, academic publishing, etc).</dd> <dd>To add to jps' comments, I think part of the problem with parallels between TK and "Western science" is that a more accurate parallel is between TK and Western/academic knowledge overall. A lot of what proponents of TK seem to like is really the traditional form of the arts or philosophy, not science. <a href="/wiki/User:Crossroads" title="User:Crossroads">Crossroads</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Crossroads" title="User talk:Crossroads">-talk-</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Crossroads-20241122214700-Kowal2701-20241122212400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:47, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-74" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Those are only my own poorly chosen words, and not necessarily reflective of the discourse. I haven't seen anyone rejecting science, and that will never be on the agenda. It's regarding the exclusion and deprecation of native worldviews and epistemologies (the secular/religious aspect of the debate is not easily settled). I have seen it said that proponents root their support in ethics rather than the merits (regardless I think learning about a different culture/language is immensely valuable). There are enough intelligent and well-meaning people on both sides of the debate, it'll come to a functional solution. It's very unlikely it'll be developed/ex-colonial countries world-leading in this. Western science really means Western epistemologies, but per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Truth" title="Wikipedia:Truth">WP:Truth</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">WP:NPOV</a> we might just have to follow what the sources say. How about <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Western epistemologies/modern science</q>? The book above would support that terminology. <a href="/wiki/User:Kowal2701" title="User:Kowal2701">Kowal2701</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kowal2701" title="User talk:Kowal2701">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Kowal2701-20241122221300-Crossroads-20241122214700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:13, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-75" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="outdent-template" style="position:relative;left:1px;"></div> I don't know why we are not trying to follow the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BESTSOURCES" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BESTSOURCES">WP:BESTSOURCES</a> here. This whole exercise is looking like a waste of time. Are you finished editing the articles or will you be continuing? <a href="/wiki/User:Fiveby" title="User:Fiveby">fiveby</a>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fiveby" title="User talk:Fiveby">zero</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Fiveby-20241123152500-Intuition_and_animism_at_the_article_Traditional_knowledge" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:25, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-76" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>What are the best sources here? Are you trying to say that that one source you found covering a single discipline is the best source? Or are you just operating on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:IDON%27TLIKEIT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:IDON'TLIKEIT">WP:IDON'TLIKEIT</a> and dismissing the sources you find unpalatable and don't identify/agree with? We follow <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">WP:NPOV</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Kowal2701" title="User:Kowal2701">Kowal2701</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kowal2701" title="User talk:Kowal2701">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Kowal2701-20241123154600-Fiveby-20241123152500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:46, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-77" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>What do you consider the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Best_sources" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Best sources">WP:Best sources</a>? We can look at the most reputable journals, but we should aim to cover all disciplines. <a href="/wiki/User:Kowal2701" title="User:Kowal2701">Kowal2701</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kowal2701" title="User talk:Kowal2701">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Kowal2701-20241123155500-Fiveby-20241123152500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:55, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-78" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(2)"><h2 id="Talk:Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy_needs_some_input_from_other_editors" data-mw-thread-id="h-Talk:Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy_needs_some_input_from_other_editors-20241102051100"><a href="/wiki/Talk:Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy" title="Talk:Ancient Egyptian race controversy">Talk:Ancient Egyptian race controversy</a> needs some input from other editors</h2> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Talk:Ancient Egyptian race controversy needs some input from other editors" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> <span id='ooui-php-180' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-Doug_Weller-20241103084600-Hemiauchenia-20241103003500">21 days ago</a>32 comments8 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-2 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-2"> There have been multiple lengthy discussions of the content in this article, and now an IP user involved since last year is suggesting use of information from a, and I quote, "TECHNICALLU UNPUBLISHED SOURCE". The arguments on that talk page are giving me a headache even thinking about it. <a href="/wiki/User:Sirocco745" title="User:Sirocco745">Sirocco745</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirocco745" title="User talk:Sirocco745">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Sirocco745-20241102051100-Talk:Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy_needs_some_input_from_other_editors" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:11, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-79" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>adding to my watchlist <a href="/wiki/User:EvergreenFir" title="User:EvergreenFir">EvergreenFir</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:EvergreenFir" title="User talk:EvergreenFir">(talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-EvergreenFir-20241102052700-Sirocco745-20241102051100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:27, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-80" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>ubpubliahed source ? I took ans cropped the image from the "source" that's all <a href="/wiki/User:SamuelRoth79" title="User:SamuelRoth79">SamuelRoth79</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SamuelRoth79" title="User talk:SamuelRoth79">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-SamuelRoth79-20241102063400-EvergreenFir-20241102052700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:34, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-81" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://osf.io/ecwf3/download/?format=pdf">https://osf.io/ecwf3/download/?format=pdf</a></dd> <dd>That is the source <a href="/wiki/User:SamuelRoth79" title="User:SamuelRoth79">SamuelRoth79</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SamuelRoth79" title="User talk:SamuelRoth79">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-SamuelRoth79-20241102063500-SamuelRoth79-20241102063400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:35, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-82" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd> <dd>So what's wrong with that "source" ? <a href="/wiki/User:SamuelRoth79" title="User:SamuelRoth79">SamuelRoth79</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SamuelRoth79" title="User talk:SamuelRoth79">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-SamuelRoth79-20241102063600-EvergreenFir-20241102052700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:36, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-83" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Look, as it stands, I myself am still collecting information on the reliability of Soy Keita in the field of Egyptology. Until that is determined, the reliability of the source cannot fully be ascertained. Confirming the reliability of a source or the source's author is an incredibly time consuming process, so much so that I don't even really know where to start here. <a href="/wiki/User:Sirocco745" title="User:Sirocco745">Sirocco745</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirocco745" title="User talk:Sirocco745">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Sirocco745-20241102070200-SamuelRoth79-20241102063600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:02, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-84" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>He is an anthropologist and even he is sited in the article. Just not the picture of the data. The information YES <a href="/wiki/User:SamuelRoth79" title="User:SamuelRoth79">SamuelRoth79</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SamuelRoth79" title="User talk:SamuelRoth79">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-SamuelRoth79-20241102070400-Sirocco745-20241102070200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:04, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-85" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>just read about him in the article, I will copy and paste what is written for you. <a href="/wiki/User:SamuelRoth79" title="User:SamuelRoth79">SamuelRoth79</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SamuelRoth79" title="User talk:SamuelRoth79">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-SamuelRoth79-20241102070900-Sirocco745-20241102070200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:09, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-86" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>n 2010 Hawass et al. undertook detailed anthropological, radiological, and genetic studies as part of the King Tutankhamun Family Project. The objectives included attempting to determine familial relationships among 11 royal mummies of the New Kingdom, as well to research for pathological features including potential inherited disorders and infectious diseases. In 2022, S.O.Y. Keita analysed 8 Short Tandem loci (STR) data published as part of these studies by Hawass et al., using an algorithm that only has three choices: Eurasians, sub-Saharan Africans, and East Asians. Using these three options, Keita concluded that the majority of the samples, which included the genetic remains of Tutankhamun, showed a population "affinity with "sub-Saharan" Africans in one affinity analysis". However, Keita cautioned that this does not mean that the royal mummies "lacked other affiliations" which he argued had been obscured in typological thinking. Keita further added that different "data and algorithms might give different results" which reflects the complexity of biological heritage and the associated interpretation.</dd> <dd>According to historian William Stiebling and archaeologist Susan N. Helft, conflicting DNA analysis conducted by different research teams on ancient Egyptians such as the Amarna royal mummies, which included the remains of Tutankhamun, has led to a lack of consensus on the genetic makeup of the ancient Egyptians and their geographic origins.</dd> <dd>Cleopatra <a href="/wiki/User:SamuelRoth79" title="User:SamuelRoth79">SamuelRoth79</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SamuelRoth79" title="User talk:SamuelRoth79">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-SamuelRoth79-20241102071100-Sirocco745-20241102070200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:11, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-87" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>Okay, can you please explain why the screenshot of the table should be included? I am satisfied with Keita's reliability, but per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ONUS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ONUS">WP:ONUS</a>, "while information must be verifiable for inclusion in an <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ARTICLE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ARTICLE">article</a>, not all verifiable information must be included. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Consensus" title="Wikipedia:Consensus">Consensus</a> may determine that certain information does not improve an article, and other policies may indicate that the material is inappropriate. Such information should be omitted or <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PRESERVE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PRESERVE">presented instead in a different article</a>. The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content."</dd> <dd> </dd> <dd>You have yet to provide a coherent reason for why adding this table is a constructive edit. This whole discussion is a pain in the butt for me to understand because I do not understand your angle here. You have presented an edit you want to make, but you have not presented a reason. As such, I cannot assess the value you perceive in the table against Wikipedia's interpretation of value.</dd> <dd> </dd> <dd>In short, my brain hurts trying to understand all of this qwq <a href="/wiki/User:Sirocco745" title="User:Sirocco745">Sirocco745</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirocco745" title="User talk:Sirocco745">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Sirocco745-20241102073000-Sirocco745-20241102070200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:30, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-88" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>okay, my argument is that including the table isn't a constructive edit. my reasons why are because:</dd> <dd>- it disrupts the flow of the article</dd> <dd>- the information found in the table has already been put into the article</dd> <dd>- unpublished studies cannot be used as a source</dd> <dd>What is your argument? <a href="/wiki/User:Sirocco745" title="User:Sirocco745">Sirocco745</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirocco745" title="User talk:Sirocco745">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Sirocco745-20241102074200-Sirocco745-20241102073000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:42, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-89" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>I would additionally like to add that the spreadsheet <a href="/wiki/User:SamuelRoth79" title="User:SamuelRoth79">SamuelRoth79</a> wants included, is completely unprofessional and made in <a href="/wiki/Microsoft_Excel" title="Microsoft Excel">Microsoft Excel</a>, unlike the other data charts/diagrams from studies that are incorporated into the article. The others included are professional genetics models on ADMIXTURE, PCA, FST ...etc and these illustrations are actually published in authentic scientific journals dealing with ancient DNA. This obscure table should be completely excluded, on top of it being highly questionable by not being peer reviewed via actual or other scientists/geneticists involved in <a href="/wiki/Paleogenomics" title="Paleogenomics">Paleogenomics</a> & <a href="/wiki/Archaeogenetics" title="Archaeogenetics">Archaeogenetics</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Neo_the_Enlightened_One" title="User:Neo the Enlightened One">Neo the Enlightened One</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Neo_the_Enlightened_One" title="User talk:Neo the Enlightened One">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Neo_the_Enlightened_One-20241102081800-Sirocco745-20241102073000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:18, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-90" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>becauae you have all the data of the 2017 Egyptians were whiter than today. Due to the "slave trade". The one that never happened through Egypt. <a href="/wiki/User:SamuelRoth79" title="User:SamuelRoth79">SamuelRoth79</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SamuelRoth79" title="User talk:SamuelRoth79">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-SamuelRoth79-20241102100000-Sirocco745-20241102073000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:00, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-91" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>That isn't exactly a reason. What value does the table add to the Wikipedia article from a content perspective? <a href="/wiki/User:Sirocco745" title="User:Sirocco745">Sirocco745</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirocco745" title="User talk:Sirocco745">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Sirocco745-20241102100200-SamuelRoth79-20241102100000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:02, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-92" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>An admin needs to handle this case ASAP: we're not obliged to host them babbling about people groups getting "whiter" amid other nonsense. <a href="/wiki/User:Remsense" title="User:Remsense">Remsense</a> ‥ <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Remsense" title="User talk:Remsense">论</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Remsense-20241102100400-SamuelRoth79-20241102100000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:04, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-93" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>The only good reason this discussion has gone on this long is because SamuelRoh79 never made any sort of point before their last few edits. No point means nothing to understand, and you can't make a case against something without understanding the other side. Truth be told, I still don't understand Samuel's point. <a href="/wiki/User:Sirocco745" title="User:Sirocco745">Sirocco745</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirocco745" title="User talk:Sirocco745">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Sirocco745-20241102101000-Remsense-20241102100400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:10, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-94" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Forgive me, I'm new to technology. Editing internet encyclopedia is a new interest. I should have put all the information in on the picture I added. <a href="/wiki/User:SamuelRoth79" title="User:SamuelRoth79">SamuelRoth79</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SamuelRoth79" title="User talk:SamuelRoth79">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-SamuelRoth79-20241102101200-Sirocco745-20241102101000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:12, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-95" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>The anonymous IP user has been spamming many Talk pages with the same fringe DNA Tribes material, and the unpublished/not peer reviewed data from PopAffiliator. They were attempting to push a POV here: <a href="/wiki/Talk:Bantu_peoples#We've_Gotten_It_All_Wrong" title="Talk:Bantu peoples">Talk:Bantu peoples#We've Gotten It All Wrong</a>, the individual is also likely involved on this other page on multiple topics: <a href="/wiki/Talk:Genetic_history_of_Egypt#Inclusion_Of_The_Study_By_DNA_Tribes" title="Talk:Genetic history of Egypt">Talk:Genetic history of Egypt#Inclusion Of The Study By DNA Tribes</a>, it's obvious this is the same person. <a href="/wiki/User:Neo_the_Enlightened_One" title="User:Neo the Enlightened One">Neo the Enlightened One</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Neo_the_Enlightened_One" title="User talk:Neo the Enlightened One">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Neo_the_Enlightened_One-20241102065500-Sirocco745-20241102051100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:55, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-96" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>no. This is not DNA tribes. This is a published peer reviewed article article using the data from the JAMA article on the Amarna mummies and Ramses III. This photo will get published. I guarantee you. Even if I have to fight tooth and nail <a href="/wiki/User:SamuelRoth79" title="User:SamuelRoth79">SamuelRoth79</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SamuelRoth79" title="User talk:SamuelRoth79">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-SamuelRoth79-20241102065900-Neo_the_Enlightened_One-20241102065500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:59, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-97" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>and NO I am not the same person. I am white rich JEW <a href="/wiki/User:SamuelRoth79" title="User:SamuelRoth79">SamuelRoth79</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SamuelRoth79" title="User talk:SamuelRoth79">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-SamuelRoth79-20241102070100-SamuelRoth79-20241102065900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:01, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-98" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Any administrators handy? We have an editor walking around here with a sign that says “Please block me” in big bright letters. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/100.36.106.199" title="Special:Contributions/100.36.106.199">100.36.106.199</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:100.36.106.199" title="User talk:100.36.106.199">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-100.36.106.199-20241102084300-SamuelRoth79-20241102070100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:43, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-99" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I would ask a reliable/respected Wikipedian for a neutral third party perspective take on this mess, but I don't think I have enough experience or credit to my name for that. Worth a shot though. @<a href="/wiki/User:Dr_vulpes" title="User:Dr vulpes">Dr vulpes</a>, would it be alright if you gave this a quick peek? <a href="/wiki/User:Sirocco745" title="User:Sirocco745">Sirocco745</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirocco745" title="User talk:Sirocco745">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Sirocco745-20241102092300-100.36.106.199-20241102084300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:23, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>No it was not reviewed by professional geneticists and published authentically, the print originally comes from here: <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://osf.io/preprints/osf/ecwf3">https://osf.io/preprints/osf/ecwf3</a>, with the picture you screenshotted being from a Google Docs <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yhTOR3PZm4v-dr5ODtv28i-Ry25GFVEvrLRuVTG0IGE/edit?gid=1243251660#gid=1243251660">https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yhTOR3PZm4v-dr5ODtv28i-Ry25GFVEvrLRuVTG0IGE/edit?gid=1243251660#gid=1243251660</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Neo_the_Enlightened_One" title="User:Neo the Enlightened One">Neo the Enlightened One</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Neo_the_Enlightened_One" title="User talk:Neo the Enlightened One">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Neo_the_Enlightened_One-20241102082300-SamuelRoth79-20241102065900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:23, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-101" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>you already have this information on your article. You know that right? It's just the picture <a href="/wiki/User:SamuelRoth79" title="User:SamuelRoth79">SamuelRoth79</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SamuelRoth79" title="User talk:SamuelRoth79">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-SamuelRoth79-20241102095700-Neo_the_Enlightened_One-20241102082300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:57, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-102" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>What's on the article actually comes from a review of material in 2022, not from that so called "source" above, as it did not meet Wikipedia's criteria.</dd> <dd>Here's where: Page 108, 'IDEAS ABOUT “RACE” IN NILE VALLEY HISTORIES: A CONSIDERATION OF “RACIAL” PARADIGMS IN RECENT PRESENTATIONS ON NILE VALLEY AFRICA, FROM “BLACK PHARAOHS” TO MUMMY GENOMES '</dd> <dd>"Analysis of the short tandem repeat (STR) data published on Ramesses III and the Amarna ancient royal family (including Tutankhamun) showed a majority to have an affinity with “sub-Saharan” Africans in one affinity analysis,[102] which does not mean that they lacked other affiliations-an important point that typological thinking obscures. (Also, different data and algorithms might give different results, which would illustrate the complexity of biological heritage and its interpretation.) This analysis was performed using an available algorithm[103] that unfortunately only has three choices: Eurasians, sub-Saharan Africans, and East Asians-the best-known received racial schema by another name, but it still gets used; this is problematic when it is local populations that constitute the historical reality of interactions. One can imagine a database with numerous global local populations.“</dd> <dd><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://egyptianexpedition.org/articles/ideas-about-race-in-nile-valley-histories-a-consideration-of-racial-paradigms-in-recent-presentations-on-nile-valley-africa-from-black-pharaohs/">https://egyptianexpedition.org/articles/ideas-about-race-in-nile-valley-histories-a-consideration-of-racial-paradigms-in-recent-presentations-on-nile-valley-africa-from-black-pharaohs/</a></dd> <dd>SOY Keita in the above, makes clarifications on the unpublished report about the affinity analysis, and he references a 2011 publication by the PopAffiliator algorithm creator (Luisa Pereira) showing what regions are in the PopAffiliator program, and what it actually does, and the number of loci needed, that's why its so fringey, you can't just use 8 STR and it excludes important regions: <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00414-010-0472-2">https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00414-010-0472-2</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Neo_the_Enlightened_One" title="User:Neo the Enlightened One">Neo the Enlightened One</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Neo_the_Enlightened_One" title="User talk:Neo the Enlightened One">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Neo_the_Enlightened_One-20241102102700-SamuelRoth79-20241102095700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:27, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-103" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Please see this on PopAffiliator's geographic regions, 'Eurasians' is only meaning Europeans, while 'sub-Saharan Africans' and 'East Asians' incorporates multiple human population groups whom are unrelated to each other, but the important local populations as SOY Keita was saying are not included, and thus he rightfully deemed it problematic: <a class="external free" href="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/PopAffiliator_geographic_regions.jpg">https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/PopAffiliator_geographic_regions.jpg</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Neo_the_Enlightened_One" title="User:Neo the Enlightened One">Neo the Enlightened One</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Neo_the_Enlightened_One" title="User talk:Neo the Enlightened One">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Neo_the_Enlightened_One-20241102104000-Neo_the_Enlightened_One-20241102102700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:40, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-104" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Clearing_things_up" data-mw-thread-id="h-Clearing_things_up-Talk:Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy_needs_some_input_from_other_editors-20241103000000">Clearing things up</h3> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: Clearing things up" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> </div> Since the above messages are an absolute mess to read through, I'm going to summarize what's happened in the past 24 hours for anyone still scratching their heads. @<a href="/wiki/User:SamuelRoth79" title="User:SamuelRoth79">SamuelRoth79</a> has been trying to add a table displaying genetic distribution for Amarna mummies to the <a href="/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy" title="Ancient Egyptian race controversy">Ancient Egyptian race controversy</a> page. The information comes from a DNA Tribes report, a source which the community has deemed unreliable. See <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_141#DNA_Tribes,_a_private_genetics_company,_being_used_as_a_source" title="Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 141">this Archive thread</a> for more information. SamuelRoth79 got this information from <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B" title="Special:Contributions/2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B">this POV-pusher IP editor</a>, who has made multiple attempts to dispute mainstream consensus on a variety of race-related articles with DNA Tribes-sourced material. Upon seeing the image added to the article, I took a fringe theories approach and removed it. SamuelRoth79 then proceeded to <a href="/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/1254898198" title="Special:PermanentLink/1254898198">call me racist</a>, which genuinely surprised me and made me do a bit of a double take. After that, I added this current topic to the noticeboard to draw more attention from more experienced editors than myself to the situation because I was unsure on how to proceed. The above thread can be summed up as "a few editors dissect the source while SamuelRoth79 makes nonsensical statements with big time gaps." I still believe they made their edits <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:AGF" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:AGF">in good faith</a> and thought they were genuinely trying to improve the article, so I must emphasize this is not an attack thread. However @<a href="/wiki/User:SamuelRoth79" title="User:SamuelRoth79">SamuelRoth79</a>, I do have some words of wisdom for you. Articles related to racial heritage and genetics are often designated as <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CTOP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CTOP">contenious topics</a>, and all content that goes against mainstream consensus is to be treated as <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:FRINGE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:FRINGE">fringe theories</a>. Please read up on Wikipedia's guidelines and policies, it is invaluable to know even the gist of them. Lastly, while not required, an apology for calling me a racist would be greatly appreciated. Reading that almost gave me a heart attack (figuratively) because I could not tell if the comment was a simple attack or your genuine belief. <a href="/wiki/User:Sirocco745" title="User:Sirocco745">Sirocco745</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirocco745" title="User talk:Sirocco745">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Sirocco745-20241103000000-Clearing_things_up" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:00, 3 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-105" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>If you took it that I called you a racist. Than I didn't mean it. Obviously I don't even know you. But you probably don't even know much about this polémique. That has been an intellectual debate for 200 years now. And now with DNA. We have people who are purposefully using DNA samples from a random cemetery in northern Egypt and saying this represents all of Egypt, whe. We already have the DNA samples of the 18th dynasty. So if you are new to this s debate. Than I would hope you would understand why this information is critical. Black people, at least in my country go ballistic every time a cop accidentally kills a black man. They start tearing down statues, which they would have NEVER DONE in Ancient Egypt, destroying public property was the death penalty and history to them really mattered. So I think if their self esteem was raised a little bit. By the knowledge that they were the Ancient Egyptians, maybe not by ethnicity but by appearances and haplogroup matchs. They would behave a little differently. This DNA was NOT taken from DNA tribes. You keep saying that, are you not hearing me?? Thus data was taken by SOY Keita himself and run through his samples and it came back 93 percent sub Saharan African. The 18th dynasty, the RICH ONES , AND Ramses III. It is just a picture. It's not like I put a Hypnotic spell on it. <a href="/wiki/User:SamuelRoth79" title="User:SamuelRoth79">SamuelRoth79</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SamuelRoth79" title="User talk:SamuelRoth79">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-SamuelRoth79-20241103002600-Sirocco745-20241103000000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:26, 3 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-106" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Look, I understand where you are coming from, but it's still not acceptable from a Wikipedia perspective. The lede of the article establishes immediately that:</dd> <dd><blockquote>Mainstream scholars reject the notion that Egypt was a "white" or "black" civilization; they maintain that applying modern notions of black or white races to ancient Egypt is anachronistic. In addition, scholars reject the notion – implicit in a black or white Egypt hypothesis – that ancient Egypt was racially homogeneous; instead, skin colour varied between the peoples of Lower Egypt, Upper Egypt, and Nubia, who rose to power in various eras of ancient Egypt.</blockquote></dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WEIGHT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:WEIGHT">WP:WEIGHT</a> states that "mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources. Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects."</dd> <dd>The genetics table you are trying to add supports the idea that those at the very top of the Ancient Egyptian social hierarchy were predominantly African. Since this perspective does not align with Egyptology's mainstream consensus, adding the genetics table to the article would be to give undue importance to a "fringe theory", and I'm pretty sure we're both tired of hearing that term by now. <a href="/wiki/User:Sirocco745" title="User:Sirocco745">Sirocco745</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sirocco745" title="User talk:Sirocco745">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Sirocco745-20241103004700-SamuelRoth79-20241103002600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:47, 3 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-107" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>that is the point. It's not a fringe theory. Do you really believe that? So do you believe they painted TutAnchAmun pitch black to represent the soil,? Do you not belong even your own eyes? <a href="/wiki/User:SamuelRoth79" title="User:SamuelRoth79">SamuelRoth79</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SamuelRoth79" title="User talk:SamuelRoth79">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-SamuelRoth79-20241103022200-Sirocco745-20241103004700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:22, 3 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-108" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="ANI" data-mw-thread-id="h-ANI-Talk:Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy_needs_some_input_from_other_editors-20241103003500">ANI</h3> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: ANI" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> </div> I've made a post at ANI <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#SamuelRoth79_disruptive_editing_at_Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy" title="Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents">Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#SamuelRoth79_disruptive_editing_at_Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Hemiauchenia" title="User:Hemiauchenia">Hemiauchenia</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hemiauchenia" title="User talk:Hemiauchenia">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Hemiauchenia-20241103003500-ANI" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:35, 3 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-109" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Blocked as NOTHERE basically. <a href="/wiki/User:Doug_Weller" title="User:Doug Weller">Doug Weller</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Doug_Weller" title="User talk:Doug Weller">talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Doug_Weller-20241103084600-Hemiauchenia-20241103003500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:46, 3 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-110" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(3)"><h2 id="Precambrian_chitons_and_another_reports_by_Mark_McMenamin" data-mw-thread-id="h-Precambrian_chitons_and_another_reports_by_Mark_McMenamin-20241102145800">Precambrian chitons and another reports by <a href="/wiki/Mark_McMenamin" title="Mark McMenamin">Mark McMenamin</a></h2> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: Precambrian chitons and another reports by Mark McMenamin" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> <span id='ooui-php-181' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-Zhenghecaris-20241110225900-Ta-tea-two-te-to-20241102145800">13 days ago</a>9 comments6 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-3 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-3"> @<a href="/wiki/User:Zhenghecaris" title="User:Zhenghecaris">Zhenghecaris</a>: (<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Zhenghecaris" title="Special:Contributions/Zhenghecaris">contribs</a>) is recently trying to create articles and add information from taxa described in "Deep Time Analysis: A Coherent View of the History of Life."<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-319-74256-4">[7]</a> written by researcher <a href="/wiki/Mark_McMenamin" title="Mark McMenamin">Mark McMenamin</a>. In this book, he claimed that there are <a href="/wiki/Ediacaran" title="Ediacaran">Ediacaran</a> fossils from Mexican site <a href="/wiki/Clemente_Formation" title="Clemente Formation">Clemente Formation</a>, includes some surprising findings such as stem-<a href="/wiki/Chiton" title="Chiton">chiton</a>, <a href="/wiki/Aculiferan" class="mw-redirect" title="Aculiferan">aculiferan</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Clementechiton&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Clementechiton (page does not exist)">Clementechiton</a> and Korifogrammia), and <a href="/wiki/Trilobite" title="Trilobite">trilobite</a>-like organism (Palankiras). However, even through such finding should be important for <a href="/wiki/Evolutionary_biology" title="Evolutionary biology">evolutionary biology</a>, searching google scholar about those findings only results researches by Mark McMenamin himself and almost no other studies. McMenamin himself is known from fringe therory such as the Triassic Kraken (hypothetical giant cephalopod around 30 m which hunted giant ichthyosaurs), and Near Eastern discovery of the New world before Columbus. In fact, there is no research other than McMenamin's own research regarding the occurrence of fossils from the Clemente Formation, and this may not be accepted by other researchers. However, I haven't found much concrete rebuttal to these studies, except that a 1999 study states that it is doubtful of biological origin and is much older than other Ediacaran Biota.<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/paleobiology/article/abs/biogeographic-analyses-of-the-ediacara-biota-a-conflict-with-paleotectonic-reconstructions/2A836B5273D841957512EC72912BDC5D">[8]</a> Zhenghecaris still adding information about Clemente Formation and taxa from there to articles like <a href="/wiki/Kimberella" title="Kimberella">Kimberella</a>, <a href="/wiki/Chiton" title="Chiton">Chiton</a>, and article of <a href="/wiki/Clemente_Formation" title="Clemente Formation">Clemente Formation</a> itself. Also, this user doesn't seem to understand what sources are available, just that I told him like "I'm suspicious because this study was done by a researcher known for Triassic Kraken.", this user added about that to article even no sources claim like that. What especially problematic is claim in <a href="/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye" title="Evolution of the eye">Evolution of the eye</a>. McMenamin claimed that Clementechiton was the earliest animal with eyes, and in February <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Earthjewels830&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Earthjewels830 (page does not exist)">User:Earthjewels830</a> (<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Earthjewels830" title="Special:Contributions/Earthjewels830">contribs</a>) who seems to be a sockpuppet of McMemanin himself, added information about that even no other researchers accept. I deleted that cleim but Zhenghecaris reverted that, and this still remains in article. Zhenghecaris have some other problematic behaviors such as uploading copyvio images in Wikimedia Commons (see <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Zhenghecaris" class="extiw" title="commons:User talk:Zhenghecaris">Commons:User_talk:Zhenghecaris</a>), edit someone's image roughly to make it like what they claim (<a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zhenghecaris_with_setal_blades.jpg" class="extiw" title="commons:File:Zhenghecaris with setal blades.jpg">Commons:File:Zhenghecaris_with_setal_blades.jpg</a>), and <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Junnn11#Eyes" class="extiw" title="commons:User talk:Junnn11">Complain rudely about a user's art style</a>. I feel that something needs to be done about this user, but how should Wikipedia actually respond to these studies by McMenamin? (See also:<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Palaeontology#McMenamin's_taxa" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Palaeontology">Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Palaeontology#McMenamin's_taxa</a>) <a href="/wiki/User:Ta-tea-two-te-to" title="User:Ta-tea-two-te-to">Ta-tea-two-te-to</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ta-tea-two-te-to" title="User talk:Ta-tea-two-te-to">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Ta-tea-two-te-to-20241102145800-Precambrian_chitons_and_another_reports_by_Mark_McMenamin" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:58, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-111" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I concur that McMenamin, despite being an employed professor, has crank tendencies and his research should be ignored unless cited by other researchers. <a href="/wiki/User:Hemiauchenia" title="User:Hemiauchenia">Hemiauchenia</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hemiauchenia" title="User talk:Hemiauchenia">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Hemiauchenia-20241102151200-Ta-tea-two-te-to-20241102145800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:12, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-112" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>There are also similar examples I can provide. Muhammad Sadiq Malkani describes fossil taxa like dinosaurs from Pakistan, in the predatory journal <a href="/wiki/SCIRP" class="mw-redirect" title="SCIRP">SCIRP</a>. Those are not considered as valid and article created are deleted, or redirected to <a href="/wiki/List_of_informally_named_dinosaurs" title="List of informally named dinosaurs">List of informally named dinosaurs</a>. Michael Wachtler<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Wachtler-Michael">[9]</a> described things like Permian angiosperms in self-published books. Those are also not considered valid in Wikipedia. Now, all the taxa that McMenamin described from the Clemente Formation were described from the book he wrote. If you look at other chapters of the book (which is accessible via Wikipedia Library), you'll see unlikely things like a reconstruction of a slug-like creature with a crystal on its back... <a href="/wiki/User:Ta-tea-two-te-to" title="User:Ta-tea-two-te-to">Ta-tea-two-te-to</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ta-tea-two-te-to" title="User talk:Ta-tea-two-te-to">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Ta-tea-two-te-to-20241102151500-Ta-tea-two-te-to-20241102145800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:15, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-113" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> <dl><dd>Publishing research in a book is unusual for Ediacaran paleontology. SO I think we should wait for confirmation from independent researchers before using those publications. This shows the risk of using primary research. Perhaps I wasted my time tracking down this book! <a href="/wiki/User:Graeme_Bartlett" title="User:Graeme Bartlett">Graeme Bartlett</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Graeme_Bartlett" title="User talk:Graeme Bartlett">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Graeme_Bartlett-20241102211800-Ta-tea-two-te-to-20241102145800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:18, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-114" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I get the impression that McMenamin's research is largely ignored by other Ediacaran researchers looking at scholar citations. <a href="/wiki/User:Hemiauchenia" title="User:Hemiauchenia">Hemiauchenia</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hemiauchenia" title="User talk:Hemiauchenia">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Hemiauchenia-20241102221500-Graeme_Bartlett-20241102211800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:15, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-115" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I also agree. First, largely unconvincing interpretations and arguments that nobody takes seriously are often going to judged too trivial to either spend time responding to and have a hard time getting judged worthwhile to print by reviewers, publishers, or both. Finally, if the researcher(s) making them are well repected, I suspect that many colleauges will also ignore them to avoid embarrassing the researcher by calling he or she a crank. The result is that many faultly and unconvincing interpretations and arguments die from being ignored instead of being refuted in print. This causes problems as there is no paper trail left explaining why they were judged to be bad and faulty by independent researchers. This can be seen in conference abstracts where interpretations and arguments appear never to be seen of heard from again. I understand this is one reason why "primary research" and conference abstracts are not used Wikipedia. <a href="/wiki/User:Paul_H." title="User:Paul H.">Paul H.</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paul_H." title="User talk:Paul H.">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Paul_H.-20241108013600-Hemiauchenia-20241102221500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:36, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-116" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Circulationsys&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Circulationsys (page does not exist)">User:Circulationsys</a> (<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Circulationsys" title="Special:Contributions/Circulationsys">contribs</a>) seems reverted addition of claim from 1999 study doubted affinity of Clemente fauna as "Inaccurate statement". As Earthjewels830, this user can be sockpuppet of Mark McMenamin himself as seeing their contributions. To be honest if that claim is inaccurate, I would like to see recent researches that supports biota from Clemente Formation (not by McMemanin himself, of course), rather than removing the existing claim... This user also added information about Clemente Formation in <a href="/wiki/Shuram_excursion" title="Shuram excursion">Shuram excursion</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Ta-tea-two-te-to" title="User:Ta-tea-two-te-to">Ta-tea-two-te-to</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ta-tea-two-te-to" title="User talk:Ta-tea-two-te-to">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Ta-tea-two-te-to-20241107023100-Ta-tea-two-te-to-20241102145800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-117" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>Shouldn't this also be at RSN? <a href="/wiki/User:Doug_Weller" title="User:Doug Weller">Doug Weller</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Doug_Weller" title="User talk:Doug Weller">talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Doug_Weller-20241107092400-Ta-tea-two-te-to-20241102145800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:24, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-118" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>Okay I will not add information on taxa described by McMenamin. <a href="/wiki/User:Zhenghecaris" title="User:Zhenghecaris">Zhenghecaris</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Zhenghecaris" title="User talk:Zhenghecaris">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Zhenghecaris-20241110225900-Ta-tea-two-te-to-20241102145800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:59, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-119" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(4)"><h2 id="AFD_Sonoran_University_of_Health_Sciences" data-mw-thread-id="h-AFD_Sonoran_University_of_Health_Sciences-20241104194700">AFD <a href="/w/index.php?title=Sonoran_University_of_Health_Sciences&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Sonoran University of Health Sciences (page does not exist)">Sonoran University of Health Sciences</a></h2> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=7" title="Edit section: AFD Sonoran University of Health Sciences" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> <span id='ooui-php-182' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-ScienceFlyer-20241104194700-AFD_Sonoran_University_of_Health_Sciences">19 days ago</a>1 comment1 person in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-4 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-4"> The naturopathic school Sonoran University of Health Sciences is formerly Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine & Health Sciences. The school's article was heavily edited by an employee and sourced to the school. This alt med school and others (<a href="/wiki/National_University_of_Natural_Medicine" title="National University of Natural Medicine">National University of Natural Medicine</a>, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.mass.gov/news/board-approved-naturopathic-medical-colleges">other naturopathic schools</a>, <a href="/wiki/Life_University" title="Life University">Life University</a>, <a href="/wiki/Life_Chiropractic_College_West" title="Life Chiropractic College West">Life Chiropractic College West</a>) have few independent and reliable sources. @<a href="/wiki/User:Jdcooper" title="User:Jdcooper">Jdcooper</a> has <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Sonoran_University_of_Health_Sciences" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sonoran University of Health Sciences">nominated</a> the Sonoran article for deletion. A recent <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.opb.org/article/2024/08/30/oregon-alternative-medicine-loan-forgiveness/">article</a> documents the high debt to earnings ratios of graduates of naturopathic, chiropractic, and Chinese medicine schools. Opinions are welcome on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Sonoran_University_of_Health_Sciences" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sonoran University of Health Sciences">the AFD.</a> <a href="/wiki/User:ScienceFlyer" title="User:ScienceFlyer">ScienceFlyer</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ScienceFlyer" title="User talk:ScienceFlyer">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-ScienceFlyer-20241104194700-AFD_Sonoran_University_of_Health_Sciences" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-120" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(5)"><h2 id="Younger_Dryas_impact_hypothesis_again" data-mw-thread-id="h-Younger_Dryas_impact_hypothesis_again-20241106203900"><a href="/wiki/Younger_Dryas_impact_hypothesis" title="Younger Dryas impact hypothesis">Younger Dryas impact hypothesis</a> again</h2> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=8" title="Edit section: Younger Dryas impact hypothesis again" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> <span id='ooui-php-183' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-TurboSuperA+-20241108032100-Hemiauchenia-20241106203900">16 days ago</a>2 comments2 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-5 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-5"> A new editor has complained that the YDIH article is <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">not objective at all, there isn't any semblance of an attempt to be objective either</q> and is adding content claiming that people have used "unethical language" against YDIH proponents <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Younger_Dryas_impact_hypothesis&diff=1255807970&oldid=1255804180">[10]</a>. Additional eyes would be welcomed. <a href="/wiki/User:Hemiauchenia" title="User:Hemiauchenia">Hemiauchenia</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hemiauchenia" title="User talk:Hemiauchenia">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Hemiauchenia-20241106203900-Younger_Dryas_impact_hypothesis_again" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:39, 6 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-121" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>An article opposing YDIH is cited in the wiki page about YDIH twenty four times, including the first sentence and majority of the first two paragraphs, while an article in support of YDIH from the same journal is relegated to the "Further reading" section without being mentioned in the body of the article. In fact, I found two <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">Wikipedia:RS</a> listed in Further Reading and Bibliography but not used to write the article.</dd> <dd>That's in addition to the article having <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WEASEL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:WEASEL">Wikipedia:WEASEL</a> (2 examples: 1. calling a geologist a "YDIH proponent" without any source attribution for it right before presenting the geologist's view, but the same is not done for YDIH opponents; 2. article describes the "black mat" as claimed evidence of ancient forest fires, yet the cited source never uses the words "forest fires" but describes the black mats as something wholly different) and <a href="/wiki/MOS:CONFUSE" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:CONFUSE">MOS:CONFUSE</a> like choosing to use the words "extraterrestrial event" rather than "cosmic event" even though the latter term appears more frequently in the cited source.</dd> <dd>I am happy to go into more details and come up with more examples, if need be. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:TurboSuperA%2B&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:TurboSuperA+ (page does not exist)">TurboSuperA+</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TurboSuperA%2B" title="User talk:TurboSuperA+">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-TurboSuperA+-20241108032100-Hemiauchenia-20241106203900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-122" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(6)"><h2 id="Why_Most_Published_Research_Findings_Are_False" data-mw-thread-id="h-Why_Most_Published_Research_Findings_Are_False-20241108133600"><a href="/wiki/Why_Most_Published_Research_Findings_Are_False" title="Why Most Published Research Findings Are False">Why Most Published Research Findings Are False</a></h2> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=9" title="Edit section: Why Most Published Research Findings Are False" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> <span id='ooui-php-184' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-Doug_Weller-20241108133900-Doug_Weller-20241108133600">16 days ago</a>2 comments1 person in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-6 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-6"> I've taken this to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOVN#How_do_we_handle_Pubpeer_comments?" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOVN">WP:NPOVN#How do we handle Pubpeer comments?</a> The article seems fringe to me. <a href="/wiki/User:Doug_Weller" title="User:Doug Weller">Doug Weller</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Doug_Weller" title="User talk:Doug Weller">talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Doug_Weller-20241108133600-Why_Most_Published_Research_Findings_Are_False" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:36, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-123" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Also just noticed the use of this paper at <a href="/wiki/Scientific_method#Relationship_with_statistics" title="Scientific method">Scientific method#Relationship with statistics</a> where it seems accepted. "This is described in a popular 2005 scientific paper "Why Most Published Research Findings Are False" by John Ioannidis, which is considered foundational to the field of metascience. " <a href="/wiki/User:Doug_Weller" title="User:Doug Weller">Doug Weller</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Doug_Weller" title="User talk:Doug Weller">talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Doug_Weller-20241108133900-Doug_Weller-20241108133600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:39, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-124" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(7)"><h2 id="A_new_Eugenics_sidebar" data-mw-thread-id="h-A_new_Eugenics_sidebar-20241109205700">A new <a href="/wiki/Template:Eugenics_sidebar" title="Template:Eugenics sidebar">Eugenics sidebar</a></h2> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=10" title="Edit section: A new Eugenics sidebar" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> <span id='ooui-php-185' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-Biohistorian15-20241114110600-Generalrelative-20241114003200">10 days ago</a>7 comments6 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-7 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-7"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Eugenics_sidebar" title="Template:Eugenics sidebar">Template:Eugenics sidebar</a> (<a href="/wiki/Special:EditPage/Template:Eugenics_sidebar" title="Special:EditPage/Template:Eugenics sidebar">edit</a> | <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Eugenics_sidebar&veaction=edit">visual edit</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:PageHistory/Template:Eugenics_sidebar" title="Special:PageHistory/Template:Eugenics sidebar">history</a>) · [[Talk:Template:Eugenics sidebar|Article talk]] (<a href="/wiki/Special:EditPage/Talk:Template:Eugenics_sidebar" title="Special:EditPage/Talk:Template:Eugenics sidebar">edit</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:PageHistory/Talk:Template:Eugenics_sidebar" title="Special:PageHistory/Talk:Template:Eugenics sidebar">history</a>) · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Eugenics_sidebar&action=watch">Watch</a></li></ul> <a href="/wiki/Template:Eugenics_sidebar" title="Template:Eugenics sidebar">A Eugenics sidebar was created recently</a> and may be of interest to editors here. <a href="/wiki/User:Llll5032" title="User:Llll5032">Llll5032</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Llll5032" title="User talk:Llll5032">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Llll5032-20241109205700-A_new_Eugenics_sidebar" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:57, 9 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-125" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <ul><li>I recommend that clear inclusion criteria be worked out on the template talk page. One general problem with sidebars structured like this, with several subtopics and controversial aspects, is that without well-defined and agreed upon inclusion/exclusion criteria, they tend to continually attract tangential cruft with questionable relevance to other distantly related articles, and become overly conspicuous when applied to such tangential articles. Then, other well-intentioned editors slap them on every article or section mentioning Eugenics (or whatever the navbox/sidebar subject is), which further distorts with undue visual/thematic emphasis, with little regards to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NAVBOX" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NAVBOX">WP:NAVBOX</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NAV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NAV">WP:NAV</a> guidelines. I note for instance the article <a href="/wiki/Henry_Fairfield_Osborn" title="Henry Fairfield Osborn">Henry Fairfield Osborn</a> is both in and bares the template: but is notably (thankfully) not in {{<a href="/wiki/Template:Paleontology" title="Template:Paleontology">Paleontology</a>}}. This could be construed as saying eugenics was a more significant aspect of his life and career paleontology, even though it only has a single paragraph in his article. And <a href="/wiki/Charles_Davenport" title="Charles Davenport">Charles Davenport</a> now has two conspicuous sidebars about Eugenics, which looks rather clunky. I hate to image a future where every article is cluttered with a dozen sidebars each competing for the reader's limited attention. {{<a href="/wiki/Template:Alternative_medicine_sidebar" title="Template:Alternative medicine sidebar">Alternative medicine sidebar</a>}} is an example of one of the most egregious garbage bins of mish mash that users seem to relish stuffing and slapping on to any biography associated with any one of the dregs of detritus therein, almost as a badge of shame. Note how {{<a href="/wiki/Template:History_of_baseball" title="Template:History of baseball">History of baseball</a>}} is not tagged onto every person who has played baseball, nor is {{<a href="/wiki/Template:Evolution_sidebar" title="Template:Evolution sidebar">Evolution sidebar</a>}} slapped on every evolutionary biologist biography. {{<a href="/wiki/Template:Alt-right_footer" title="Template:Alt-right footer">Alt-right footer</a>}} is another controversial grab bag with nebulous to nil inclusion criteria, but at least it is less conspicuous as a collapsible footer. In general, with navboxes, fewer, tightly-interlinked subjects are preferable.<a href="/wiki/User:Animalparty" title="User:Animalparty">--Animalparty!</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Animalparty" title="User talk:Animalparty">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Animalparty-20241110011400-Llll5032-20241109205700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:14, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-126" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I wouldn't necessarily take the length of coverage on Wikipedia as indicative of whether a certain aspect particularly significant in regards to a person's life. Henry Fairfield Osborn has a complex legacy both inside and outside paleontology. <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327391393_Henry_Fairfield_Osborn_Race_and_the_Search_for_the_Origins_of_Man">Henry Fairfield Osborn: Race and the Search for the Origins of Man</a> is a book basically entirely dedicated to his views about race and related topics, rather than about his palaeontological contributions (that said, I don't think that eugenics was the overridingly important aspect of Osborn's life, with another book An Agenda for Antiquity: Henry Fairfield Osborn and Vertebrate Palaeontology at the American Museum of Natural History, 1890-1935 about his work at the AMNH). <a href="/wiki/User:Hemiauchenia" title="User:Hemiauchenia">Hemiauchenia</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hemiauchenia" title="User talk:Hemiauchenia">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Hemiauchenia-20241110013600-Animalparty-20241110011400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:36, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-127" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>Thanks for the suggestion, @<a href="/wiki/User:Animalparty" title="User:Animalparty">Animalparty</a>. I agree in the case of Osborn and have removed the template. Besides, including him might have readers click the hyperlink while confusing its target with <a href="/wiki/Frederick_Osborn" title="Frederick Osborn">Frederick Osborn</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Biohistorian15" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Biohistorian15">Biohistorian15</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Biohistorian15" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Biohistorian15">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Biohistorian15-20241110195500-Animalparty-20241110011400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:55, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-128" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></li></ul> <dl><dd>Lumping in, say, <a href="/wiki/Preimplantation_genetic_diagnosis" title="Preimplantation genetic diagnosis">preimplantation genetic diagnosis</a> with <a href="/wiki/Racial_policy_of_Nazi_Germany" title="Racial policy of Nazi Germany">racial policy of Nazi Germany</a> seems likely to lead to POV issues, and this is even before we get into BLPs getting roped in. I don't think we need this and that it can be deleted. <a href="/wiki/User:Crossroads" title="User:Crossroads">Crossroads</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Crossroads" title="User talk:Crossroads">-talk-</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Crossroads-20241113214500-Llll5032-20241109205700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-129" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I agree. Seems likely to generate more heat than light. <a href="/wiki/User:Generalrelative" title="User:Generalrelative">Generalrelative</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Generalrelative" title="User talk:Generalrelative">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Generalrelative-20241114003200-Crossroads-20241113214500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:32, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-130" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Please click on the link to see that this is no longer being done at all. The sidebar has been reduced to its bare essentials. <a href="/wiki/User:Biohistorian15" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Biohistorian15">Biohistorian15</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Biohistorian15" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Biohistorian15">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Biohistorian15-20241114110600-Generalrelative-20241114003200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:06, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-131" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(8)"><h2 id="Cultural_Marxism_(disambiguation)" data-mw-thread-id="h-Cultural_Marxism_(disambiguation)-20241110134700"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Cultural_Marxism_(disambiguation)&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Cultural Marxism (disambiguation) (page does not exist)">Cultural Marxism (disambiguation)</a></h2> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=11" title="Edit section: Cultural Marxism (disambiguation)" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> <span id='ooui-php-186' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-ActivelyDisinterested-20241110134700-Cultural_Marxism_(disambiguation)">14 days ago</a>1 comment1 person in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-8 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-8"> There is discussion about the recently created disambiguation page for <a href="/wiki/Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory" title="Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory">Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory</a> and <a href="/wiki/Marxist_cultural_analysis" title="Marxist cultural analysis">Marxist cultural analysis</a> that may be of interest to this noticeboard. See the disambiguation <a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cultural_Marxism_(disambiguation)&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Talk:Cultural Marxism (disambiguation) (page does not exist)">talk page</a> for details. -- LCU <a href="/wiki/User:ActivelyDisinterested" title="User:ActivelyDisinterested">ActivelyDisinterested</a> «<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ActivelyDisinterested" title="User talk:ActivelyDisinterested">@</a>» °<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested" title="Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested">∆t</a>° <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-ActivelyDisinterested-20241110134700-Cultural_Marxism_(disambiguation)" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:47, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-132" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(9)"><h2 id="Climate_stuff" data-mw-thread-id="h-Climate_stuff-20241114123400">Climate stuff</h2> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=12" title="Edit section: Climate stuff" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> <span id='ooui-php-187' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-100.36.106.199-20241114123400-Climate_stuff">10 days ago</a>1 comment1 person in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-9 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-9"> Possibly readers of this board may want to weigh in on two discussions at <a href="/wiki/Talk:William_Happer" title="Talk:William Happer">Talk:William Happer</a>. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/100.36.106.199" title="Special:Contributions/100.36.106.199">100.36.106.199</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:100.36.106.199" title="User talk:100.36.106.199">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-100.36.106.199-20241114123400-Climate_stuff" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:34, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-133" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(10)"><h2 id="Timeline_of_UFO_investigations_and_public_disclosure" data-mw-thread-id="h-Timeline_of_UFO_investigations_and_public_disclosure-20241114131600">Timeline of UFO investigations and public disclosure</h2> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=13" title="Edit section: Timeline of UFO investigations and public disclosure" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> <span id='ooui-php-188' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-Hemiauchenia-20241120165800-LuckyLouie-20241120162300">4 days ago</a>26 comments9 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-10 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-10"> <a href="/w/index.php?title=Timeline_of_UFO_investigations_and_public_disclosure&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Timeline of UFO investigations and public disclosure (page does not exist)">Timeline of UFO investigations and public disclosure</a> (<a href="/wiki/Special:EditPage/Timeline_of_UFO_investigations_and_public_disclosure" title="Special:EditPage/Timeline of UFO investigations and public disclosure">edit</a> | <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Timeline_of_UFO_investigations_and_public_disclosure&veaction=edit">visual edit</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:PageHistory/Timeline_of_UFO_investigations_and_public_disclosure" title="Special:PageHistory/Timeline of UFO investigations and public disclosure">history</a>) · <a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Timeline_of_UFO_investigations_and_public_disclosure&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Talk:Timeline of UFO investigations and public disclosure (page does not exist)">Article talk</a> (<a href="/wiki/Special:EditPage/Talk:Timeline_of_UFO_investigations_and_public_disclosure" title="Special:EditPage/Talk:Timeline of UFO investigations and public disclosure">edit</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:PageHistory/Talk:Timeline_of_UFO_investigations_and_public_disclosure" title="Special:PageHistory/Talk:Timeline of UFO investigations and public disclosure">history</a>) · <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Timeline_of_UFO_investigations_and_public_disclosure&action=watch">Watch</a> Also a question from <a href="/wiki/User:Gronk_Oz" title="User:Gronk Oz">Gronk Oz</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Fringe_theories#New_article_of_interest(?)" title="Wikipedia talk:Fringe theories">here</a> about lists of articles for watch-listing. <a href="/wiki/User:Fiveby" title="User:Fiveby">fiveby</a>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fiveby" title="User talk:Fiveby">zero</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Fiveby-20241114131600-Timeline_of_UFO_investigations_and_public_disclosure" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:16, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-134" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">This is a timeline of civilian and governmental efforts in investigating and disclosing the nature and presence of unidentified flying objects (UFOs), also known as unidentified anomalous phenomena (UAPs). It includes important publications and public events and also institutional countermeasures against the UFO disclosure process.</q> For starters, the lead pushes a conspiratorial viewpoint in Wikipedia's voice. <a href="/wiki/User:LuckyLouie" title="User:LuckyLouie">- LuckyLouie</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LuckyLouie" title="User talk:LuckyLouie">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-LuckyLouie-20241114135600-Fiveby-20241114131600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:56, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-135" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>The title is problematic, inviting editors to freely mix real-world things with fringelore. <a href="/w/index.php?title=Timeline_of_UFOlogy&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Timeline of UFOlogy (page does not exist)">Timeline of UFOlogy</a> might stand a chance of being notable. <a href="/wiki/User:Barnards.tar.gz" title="User:Barnards.tar.gz">Barnards.tar.gz</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Barnards.tar.gz" title="User talk:Barnards.tar.gz">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Barnards.tar.gz-20241114143700-Fiveby-20241114131600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-136" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>thanks for bringing this to our attention.<a href="/wiki/User:Sgerbic" title="User:Sgerbic">Sgerbic</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sgerbic" title="User talk:Sgerbic">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Sgerbic-20241114163900-Barnards.tar.gz-20241114143700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:39, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-137" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>What is the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SELCRIT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SELCRIT">inclusion criteria</a> for items on this list? Seems very arbitrary at present, e.g. whatever the article creator thinks is relevant. <a href="/wiki/User:LuckyLouie" title="User:LuckyLouie">- LuckyLouie</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LuckyLouie" title="User talk:LuckyLouie">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-LuckyLouie-20241114194700-Sgerbic-20241114163900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-138" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> I <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BOLD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BOLD">WP:BOLDly</a> moved it to <a href="/w/index.php?title=Timeline_of_UFOs&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Timeline of UFOs (page does not exist)">Timeline of UFOs</a>. We may need to think about how it might work with the already extant <a href="/wiki/List_of_UFO_sightings" class="mw-redirect" title="List of UFO sightings">List of UFO sightings</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User:ජපස">jps</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User talk:ජපස">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83-20241114174800-Timeline_of_UFO_investigations_and_public_disclosure" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:48, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-139" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>The List of UFO sightings is a timeline. What is the case for needing both articles? <a href="/wiki/User:Sgerbic" title="User:Sgerbic">Sgerbic</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sgerbic" title="User talk:Sgerbic">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Sgerbic-20241114195000-%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83-20241114174800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-140" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Ahhh I see, the Timeline of UFO's includes whatever the editor who wrote this thinks is important to UFO history, heavy on the Elizondo mentions. I'm not so sure about this, but leave this to you as I have pizza to eat. <a href="/wiki/User:Sgerbic" title="User:Sgerbic">Sgerbic</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sgerbic" title="User talk:Sgerbic">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Sgerbic-20241114195300-Sgerbic-20241114195000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:53, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-141" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>This is stopgap meant to address the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PROFRINGE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PROFRINGE">WP:PROFRINGE</a> implications of the previous title. I *might* be able to see a case for having a separate timeline given that there have been some remarkably interesting points of heady interest, lack of interest, alien autopsy videos promoted, and the like, but am not quite convinced yet. <a href="/wiki/User:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User:ජපස">jps</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User talk:ජපස">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83-20241115002600-Sgerbic-20241114195300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:26, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-142" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Any day now <a href="/wiki/User:Sgerbic" title="User:Sgerbic">Sgerbic</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sgerbic" title="User talk:Sgerbic">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Sgerbic-20241115023300-%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83-20241115002600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:33, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-143" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>You said it. There is room for a competent academic to write the definitive history on this subject, but it hasn't happened yet. Probably because the endeavor is so exhausting. <a href="/wiki/User:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User:ජපස">jps</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User talk:ජපස">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83-20241117135700-Sgerbic-20241115023300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:57, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-144" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> The article arbitrarily combines non-notable <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Timeline_of_UFOs&curid=78356892&diff=1257494620&oldid=1257493960">books</a> and <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Timeline_of_UFOs&curid=78356892&diff=1257426391&oldid=1257425404">films</a> with content contained in <a href="/wiki/List_of_reported_UFO_sightings" title="List of reported UFO sightings">List of reported UFO sightings</a>, <a href="/wiki/UFO_conspiracy_theories" title="UFO conspiracy theories">UFO conspiracy theories</a>, and <a href="/wiki/Investigation_of_UFO_reports_by_the_United_States_government" title="Investigation of UFO reports by the United States government">Investigation of UFO reports by the United States government</a>. I'm not sure what this article accomplishes other than to be a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:POVFORK" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:POVFORK">WP:POVFORK</a> of existing content. <a href="/wiki/User:LuckyLouie" title="User:LuckyLouie">- LuckyLouie</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LuckyLouie" title="User talk:LuckyLouie">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-LuckyLouie-20241115142100-Timeline_of_UFO_investigations_and_public_disclosure" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:21, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-145" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I'm done with my pizza and am taking another look as the editor keeps beefing up the article with more and more dates. What I'm concerned with is this arbitrary submission of non-notable events based on the unknown criteria of this specific editor. For example this one "2024 October - The first Global Disclosure Day event was launched by the New Paradigm Institute" what is notable about this? Global Disclosure Day isn't notable, the New Paradigm Institute isn't notable and the citation is leading to a website for this Paradigm Institute, which isn't notable. So who is responsible for including these dates? Okay, let me go look at the talk page for this article, we should be having this conversation there. <a href="/wiki/User:Sgerbic" title="User:Sgerbic">Sgerbic</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sgerbic" title="User talk:Sgerbic">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Sgerbic-20241115181300-LuckyLouie-20241115142100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:13, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-146" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>There was no talk page - creating it now. <a href="/wiki/User:Sgerbic" title="User:Sgerbic">Sgerbic</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sgerbic" title="User talk:Sgerbic">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Sgerbic-20241115181400-Sgerbic-20241115181300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:14, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-147" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I have posted on that brand new talk page my concerns. I respectfully suggest that any future conversations about the article be taken to that talk page. <a href="/wiki/User:Sgerbic" title="User:Sgerbic">Sgerbic</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sgerbic" title="User talk:Sgerbic">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Sgerbic-20241115183700-Sgerbic-20241115181400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:37, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-148" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Could use somebody who's more experienced with identifying good sources vs bad within this topic. Paging @<a href="/wiki/User:Feoffer" title="User:Feoffer">User:Feoffer</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:LuckyLouie" title="User:LuckyLouie">- LuckyLouie</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LuckyLouie" title="User talk:LuckyLouie">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-LuckyLouie-20241115211300-Sgerbic-20241115183700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:13, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-149" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Oh no not the Brit! They spell everything wrong! <a href="/wiki/User:Sgerbic" title="User:Sgerbic">Sgerbic</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sgerbic" title="User talk:Sgerbic">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Sgerbic-20241115222000-LuckyLouie-20241115211300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:20, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-150" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Robert_Hastings_(ufologist)" title="Robert Hastings (ufologist)">Robert Hastings (ufologist)</a> (<a href="/wiki/Special:EditPage/Robert_Hastings_(ufologist)" title="Special:EditPage/Robert Hastings (ufologist)">edit</a> | <a href="/wiki/Talk:Robert_Hastings_(ufologist)" title="Talk:Robert Hastings (ufologist)">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:PageHistory/Robert_Hastings_(ufologist)" title="Special:PageHistory/Robert Hastings (ufologist)">history</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:ProtectPage/Robert_Hastings_(ufologist)" title="Special:ProtectPage/Robert Hastings (ufologist)">protect</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:DeletePage/Robert_Hastings_(ufologist)" title="Special:DeletePage/Robert Hastings (ufologist)">delete</a> | <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Robert_Hastings_(ufologist)&limit=999">links</a> | <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Robert_Hastings_(ufologist)&action=watch">watch</a> | <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Robert+Hastings+%28ufologist%29">logs</a> | <a class="external text" href="https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews?pages=Robert_Hastings_(ufologist)&project=en.wikipedia.org">views</a>) ...similar NPOV problems by the same editor. Fixed for the moment. <a href="/wiki/User:LuckyLouie" title="User:LuckyLouie">- LuckyLouie</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LuckyLouie" title="User talk:LuckyLouie">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-LuckyLouie-20241115184900-LuckyLouie-20241115142100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:49, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-151" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></li></ul> <dl><dd>I wonder if this was based on that timeline that has been circulating for a while and <a href="/wiki/Michael_Shellenberger" title="Michael Shellenberger">Michael Shellenberger</a> included as an annex in his "<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://docs.house.gov/meetings/GO/GO12/20241113/117721/HHRG-118-GO12-Wstate-ShellenbergerM-20241113.pdf">testimony</a>" (page 36 onwards on the pdf) to the US Congress this wednesday. Maybe it's a coincidence. <a href="/wiki/User:VdSV9" title="User:VdSV9">VdSV9</a>•<a href="/wiki/User_talk:VdSV9" title="User talk:VdSV9">♫</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-VdSV9-20241116134800-LuckyLouie-20241115142100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:48, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-152" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Not related, but that's an incredible timeline. Most of the entries may never make it to Wikipedia because of the policies here. <a href="/wiki/User:VaudevillianScientist" title="User:VaudevillianScientist">VaudevillianScientist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:VaudevillianScientist" title="User talk:VaudevillianScientist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-VaudevillianScientist-20241117031600-VdSV9-20241116134800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:16, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-153" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>If by "incredible timeline" you mean, "halfwitted timeline". <a href="/wiki/User:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User:ජපස">jps</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83" title="User talk:ජපස">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83-20241117135900-VaudevillianScientist-20241117031600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:59, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-154" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>The congress will decide on that, I'm in no position.. <a href="/wiki/User:VaudevillianScientist" title="User:VaudevillianScientist">VaudevillianScientist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:VaudevillianScientist" title="User talk:VaudevillianScientist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-VaudevillianScientist-20241118061200-%E0%B6%A2%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%83-20241117135900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:12, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-155" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">The congress will decode on that, ..</q> Biting tongue. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Donald_Albury" title="User talk:Donald Albury">Donald Albury</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Donald_Albury-20241118145200-VaudevillianScientist-20241118061200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:52, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-156" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="outdent-template" style="position:relative;left:1px;"></div> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Timeline_of_UFOs" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Timeline of UFOs">Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Timeline_of_UFOs</a> <a href="/wiki/User:LuckyLouie" title="User:LuckyLouie">- LuckyLouie</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LuckyLouie" title="User talk:LuckyLouie">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-LuckyLouie-20241116150300-Timeline_of_UFO_investigations_and_public_disclosure" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:03, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-157" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> I'm sorry to see there is both off-wiki and on-wiki <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CANVASSING" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CANVASSING">WP:CANVASSING</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://x.com/James_A_Conrad/status/1858666996423950620">[11]</a>, [<a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spaceflight&diff=prev&oldid=1258500835">[12]</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:LuckyLouie" title="User:LuckyLouie">- LuckyLouie</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LuckyLouie" title="User talk:LuckyLouie">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-LuckyLouie-20241120162300-Timeline_of_UFO_investigations_and_public_disclosure" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:23, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-158" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Do you think they'll create another change.org petition against us? lol <a href="/wiki/User:Hemiauchenia" title="User:Hemiauchenia">Hemiauchenia</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hemiauchenia" title="User talk:Hemiauchenia">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Hemiauchenia-20241120165800-LuckyLouie-20241120162300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:58, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-159" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(11)"><h2 id="Kanawha_people" data-mw-thread-id="h-Kanawha_people-20241114184800"><a href="/wiki/Kanawha_people" title="Kanawha people">Kanawha people</a></h2> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=14" title="Edit section: Kanawha people" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> <span id='ooui-php-189' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-Hemiauchenia-20241114184800-Kanawha_people">9 days ago</a>1 comment1 person in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-11 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-11"> As far as I can tell <a href="/wiki/Kanawha_people" title="Kanawha people">Kanawha people</a> is not a real topic that archaeologists write about. The idea that they represent the ancestors to Native Americans appears to be made up. (Kanawha is a valley and as far as I am aware their is no modern ethnic group by that name) As such I've nominated the article for deletion. Please participate if interested. Thanks. <a href="/wiki/User:Hemiauchenia" title="User:Hemiauchenia">Hemiauchenia</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hemiauchenia" title="User talk:Hemiauchenia">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Hemiauchenia-20241114184800-Kanawha_people" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:48, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-160" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(12)"><h2 id="Jewish_Indian_theory" data-mw-thread-id="h-Jewish_Indian_theory-20241116135700"><a href="/wiki/Jewish_Indian_theory" title="Jewish Indian theory">Jewish Indian theory</a></h2> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=15" title="Edit section: Jewish Indian theory" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> <span id='ooui-php-190' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-Doug_Weller-20241116135700-Jewish_Indian_theory">8 days ago</a>1 comment1 person in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-12 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-12"> An interesting edit - IP removed the word erroneous from the lead as the article doesn't suggest that. They seem to be correct in that the article is about support of the idea. <a href="/wiki/User:Doug_Weller" title="User:Doug Weller">Doug Weller</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Doug_Weller" title="User talk:Doug Weller">talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Doug_Weller-20241116135700-Jewish_Indian_theory" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:57, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-161" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(13)"><h2 id="Stephen_B._Levine" data-mw-thread-id="h-Stephen_B._Levine-20241116202200"><a href="/wiki/Stephen_B._Levine" title="Stephen B. Levine">Stephen B. Levine</a></h2> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=16" title="Edit section: Stephen B. Levine" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> <span id='ooui-php-191' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-Springee-20241119112900-Hob_Gadling-20241119071200">5 days ago</a>7 comments4 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-13 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-13"> There have recently been two edits to this article recently which I believe are in violation of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:FRINGE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:FRINGE">WP:FRINGE</a> and would like to get input on. <ul><li>An SPA, in their only edit, replaced the text <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">known for advocating the fringe view that <a href="/wiki/Gender_dysphoria" title="Gender dysphoria">gender dysphoria</a> and being <a href="/wiki/Transgender" title="Transgender">transgender</a> are often caused by psychological issues that should be treated psycho-analytically as opposed to with <a href="/wiki/Gender-affirming_care" class="mw-redirect" title="Gender-affirming care">gender-affirming care</a></q> with <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">known for his thesis that ...</q><a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stephen_B._Levine&diff=prev&oldid=1257117167">[13]</a> despite many of the sources noting he's fringe and the statement being obviously fringe</li></ul> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1256386598">.mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#F0F2F5;color:inherit}.mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#CCFFCC;color:inherit}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#14181F;color:inherit}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#003500;color:inherit}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#14181F;color:inherit}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#003500;color:inherit}}</style> <div style="margin-left:0"> <table class="mw-collapsible mw-archivedtalk mw-collapsed" style="color:inherit; background: transparent; text-align: left; border: 1px solid Silver; margin: 0.2em auto auto; width:100%; clear: both; padding: 1px;"> <tbody><tr> <th class="cot-header-other" style="; font-size:87%; padding:0.2em 0.3em; text-align:center;"><div style="font-size:115%;margin:0 4em">Various sources</div> </th></tr> <tr> <td style="color:inherit; border: solid 1px Silver; padding: 0.6em; background: var(--background-color-base, #fff);"> <ul><li><ul><li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">When I asked him about his status as an outsider in his professional community, Levine grew animated. I had it the wrong way around. The mainstream medical establishment, not he, had moved to the fringe. Groups that have endorsed the standards, such as the American Psychiatric Association, did so “on the basis of civil rights” rather than scientific evidence, he said</q><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.wired.com/story/inmates-doctors-battle-over-transgender-medical-care/">[14]</a></li> <li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">advocated treating trans identity as mental illness with associated conversion therapy-style “cures,” SOC-7 and what followed with the DSM-5 in 2015 represented professional blows to both their research agendas and to their business practices.</q><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.splcenter.org/captain/foundations">[15]</a></li> <li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">For years, these experts have struggled to establish their credibility in court. Judges have found their testimony to be “biased,” “illogical,” “conspiratorial” or based on fabrication, or tossed their testimony in its entirety for having no basis in research. ... Hruz is part of a small but prolific roster of expert witnesses who crisscross the country to testify in defense of anti-trans laws and policies facing a legal challenge. Pulling ideas from the fringes of medicine, their purpose is to convince judges that gender-affirming care is scientifically controversial, unnecessary and dangerous ... Besides Hruz, the core group of experts includes James Cantor, a Canadian psychologist; Stephen Levine, a clinical psychiatrist whom prisons often enlist when they are facing pressure to provide gender-affirming care; ... Levine has had parts of his testimony struck several times, including for relying on a fabricated anecdote.</q><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.huffpost.com/entry/paid-experts-defending-anti-trans-law_n_65021a7ee4b01df7c3b6d513">[16]</a></li> <li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Other vestigial scientists actively support SAFE and similar GAC bans with outdated pathological theories. Stephen Levine is a psychiatry professor at Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine, founder of the school's gender identity clinic, and served as chair of the fifth edition of the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association Standards of Care (now known as WPATH) in 1998 (Caraballo, 2023). Today, Levine testifies frequently as an expert witness for states seeking to ban GAC for minors and to deny GAC to incarcerated adults (Stahl, 2021). Particularly notable is Levine's (2013) theory that trans individuals are commonly pathologically narcissistic. ... Beyond bans for minors, agents of scientific uncertainty have supported limits on adult GAC. Florida Governor Ron DeSantis's Medicaid ban on GAC coverage was defended by a familiar cast including Van Mol, Van Meter, Lappert, Cantor, Laidlaw, Levine, ... Although most medical and mental health associations oppose GAC bans, some fringe medical associations support SAFE and similar bans. Many of these fringe associations are small and share leaders. Most are composed of vestigial scientists as well as clinicians who publish statements, commentaries, and studies in their own scientific journals and websites. The following describes several anti-GAC fringe medical associations;</q><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www-sciencedirect-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/science/article/pii/S0277953623008900#appsec1">[17]</a></li> <li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Dr. Levine, whose conversion therapy practice contradicts mainstream medical opinion should not be used by states in court to justify anti-trans policies.</q><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-law-medicine-and-ethics/article/antitransgender-medical-expert-industry/25EFFECB8F71CA9A37F9F089E13BC41E">[18]</a></li></ul></li></ul> </td></tr></tbody></table></div> <ul><li>Another editor removed the text <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">The <a href="/wiki/Southern_Poverty_Law_Center" title="Southern Poverty Law Center">Southern Poverty Law Center</a> described Levine as part of an "old guard that advocated treating trans identity as mental illness with associated conversion therapy-style “cures”" whose activism began in response to changes in the DSM-5 and WPATH SOC 7 which represented a threat to their business practices and research agendas.</q> stating <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Not appropriate for biography of a living person. Partisan statements and contentious tone</q><a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stephen_B._Levine&diff=prev&oldid=1257681178">[19]</a> - this whitewashing is more obviously in blatant disregard of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">WP:NPOV</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SPLC" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SPLC">WP:SPLC</a></li></ul> <a href="/wiki/User:Your_Friendly_Neighborhood_Sociologist" title="User:Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist">Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Your_Friendly_Neighborhood_Sociologist" title="User talk:Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Your_Friendly_Neighborhood_Sociologist-20241116202200-Stephen_B._Levine" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:22, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-162" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>There is a discussion going on as to whether advocacy groups like the SPLC are SPS, as technically the way SPS is written right now they are self published sources and therefore unusable on BLPs. The discussion is ongoing, but if it comes to the consensus that such groups are SPS, the removal of the latter is justified. No comment otherwise. <a href="/wiki/User:PARAKANYAA" title="User:PARAKANYAA">PARAKANYAA</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PARAKANYAA" title="User talk:PARAKANYAA">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-PARAKANYAA-20241116224900-Your_Friendly_Neighborhood_Sociologist-20241116202200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:49, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-163" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>As a courtesy link, the discussion in question is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Grey_Literature" title="Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Grey Literature">Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Grey Literature</a>. As noted there, the language by which the SPLC is a SPS is an essay, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:USESPS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:USESPS">WP:USESPS</a>, not actual policy. I'll note that the the majority of votes say this is obviously too strict a definition of SPS and either voted that way or called it a bad RFC on those grounds. As it stands, the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SPLC" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SPLC">WP:SPLC</a> are <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:GREL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:GREL">WP:GREL</a>, and we shouldn't pre-emptively/speculatively downgrade RS. <a href="/wiki/User:Your_Friendly_Neighborhood_Sociologist" title="User:Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist">Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Your_Friendly_Neighborhood_Sociologist" title="User talk:Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Your_Friendly_Neighborhood_Sociologist-20241117000600-PARAKANYAA-20241116224900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:06, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-164" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I can't see any consensus in that discussion either way, and our current definition in policy outside the essay is vague enough it could apply. SPLC being an SPS is not a new accusation, but we've never come to any real conclusion on it. And the question of whether SPLC is reliable is related to but separate from whether it is an SPS - if it is an SPS per policy it is unusable for BLPs always. Some people in that discussion (not me) were opposed to using advocacy group sources in BLPs at all, so until this is settled it should be treated cautiously, especially when it's very contentious allegations as it is here. <a href="/wiki/User:PARAKANYAA" title="User:PARAKANYAA">PARAKANYAA</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PARAKANYAA" title="User talk:PARAKANYAA">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-PARAKANYAA-20241117010100-Your_Friendly_Neighborhood_Sociologist-20241117000600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:01, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-165" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>Why start a discussion here if there isn't a talk page discussion at the article? Given the contentious nature of the allegation removal seems appropriate but that really is a talk page discussion point vs a FRINGE question. <a href="/wiki/User:Springee" title="User:Springee">Springee</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Springee" title="User talk:Springee">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Springee-20241119051100-Your_Friendly_Neighborhood_Sociologist-20241116202200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:11, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-166" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I suggest that we move all those "this discussion should not be on WP:FTN" complaints to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard" title="Wikipedia talk:Fringe theories/Noticeboard">Wikipedia talk:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard</a> from now on. --<a href="/wiki/User:Hob_Gadling" title="User:Hob Gadling">Hob Gadling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hob_Gadling" title="User talk:Hob Gadling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Hob_Gadling-20241119071200-Springee-20241119051100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:12, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-167" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I suspect you are aware that typically a concern would be raised at the article's talk page first and with involved editors first. <a href="/wiki/User:Springee" title="User:Springee">Springee</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Springee" title="User talk:Springee">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Springee-20241119112900-Hob_Gadling-20241119071200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:29, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-168" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(14)"><h2 id="Intuitive_Interspecies_Communication_(IIC)" data-mw-thread-id="h-Intuitive_Interspecies_Communication_(IIC)-20241119033300">Intuitive Interspecies Communication (IIC)</h2> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=17" title="Edit section: Intuitive Interspecies Communication (IIC)" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> <span id='ooui-php-192' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-WeirdNAnnoyed-20241119115300-Crossroads-20241119033300">5 days ago</a>2 comments2 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-14 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-14"> Has anyone else ever heard of Intuitive Interspecies Communication? On looking into one of the authors of a paper <a href="#Intuition_and_animism_at_the_article_Traditional_knowledge">quoted above</a>, I found out about this topic: <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://researchers.usask.ca/mj-barrett/research.php">[20]</a> <ul><li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">IIC presents as a detailed, non-verbal and non-physical form of communication between humans and other animals. Drawing on a diversity of intuitive capacities, IIC includes the mutual exchange of visceral feelings, emotions, mental impressions and thoughts, embodied sensations of touch, smell, taste, sound, as well as visuals in the mind’s eye. While these exchanges can occur while in direct physical proximity to the animal, they can also occur over great distances and without the need for visual, auditory, olfactory, voice or other cues that humans normally associate with direct interactive communication...At this time, we are focusing on animal-human IIC, but the phenomenon is also known to be linked to interactions with plants and other beings of the land, water and skies.</q></li></ul> It basically looks like a rebranding of <a href="/wiki/Extrasensory_perception" title="Extrasensory perception">extrasensory perception</a> and <a href="/wiki/Mediumship" title="Mediumship">mediumship</a> but for animals and with an "indigenous" coat of paint, and in any case flies in the face of mainstream zoology and cognitive science (and, well, physics). There was even a <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://researchers.usask.ca/mj-barrett/multispecies-research-symposium-iic.php">virtual symposium</a> (probably small) and they managed to get a grant from the Canadian government (in social sciences and humanities). I searched Wikipedia for the term and found it appeared in <a href="/wiki/Animal_communication" title="Animal communication">Animal communication</a>. I <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Animal_communication&diff=1258327093&oldid=1258123014">removed</a> it there, along with some neighboring poorly sourced material. The IIC stuff seems to have been added in fall 2023 by a student editor in an English class. <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Animal_communication&diff=prev&oldid=1174319767">[21]</a><a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Animal_communication&diff=1180657418&oldid=1176770255">[22]</a> I bring this up here because the <a href="/wiki/Animal_communication" title="Animal communication">Animal communication</a> article may need more work or watching and also I think more awareness of this (newish?) flavor of fringe might be good. Has anyone else heard of this before, and has it ever been covered by skeptic sites or other sources? I could not find any. <a href="/wiki/User:Crossroads" title="User:Crossroads">Crossroads</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Crossroads" title="User talk:Crossroads">-talk-</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Crossroads-20241119033300-Intuitive_Interspecies_Communication_(IIC)" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:33, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-169" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>No, but thanks for bringing it to our attention and making those edits. The laundering of science denialism by applying social-justice buzzwords like "traditional", "indigenous", and "decolonization" is a massive thorn in my side, so I'm going to keep an eye out. <a href="/wiki/User:WeirdNAnnoyed" title="User:WeirdNAnnoyed">WeirdNAnnoyed</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WeirdNAnnoyed" title="User talk:WeirdNAnnoyed">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-WeirdNAnnoyed-20241119115300-Crossroads-20241119033300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:53, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-170" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(15)"><h2 id="James_Mellaart_and_Çatalhöyük_&_Mount_Hasan" data-mw-thread-id="h-James_Mellaart_and_Çatalhöyük_&_Mount_Hasan-20241119125500">James Mellaart and Çatalhöyük & Mount Hasan</h2> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=18" title="Edit section: James Mellaart and Çatalhöyük & Mount Hasan" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> <span id='ooui-php-193' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-Hoopes-20241121220300-Jo-Jo_Eumerus-20241119125500">2 days ago</a>2 comments2 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-15 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-15"> Anyone who knows the sordid history of <a href="/wiki/James_Mellaart" title="James Mellaart">James Mellaart</a>? There are a number of sources that have weighed in on whether a particular mural in <a href="/wiki/%C3%87atalh%C3%B6y%C3%BCk" title="Çatalhöyük">Çatalhöyük</a> depicts an eruption of <a href="/wiki/Mount_Hasan" title="Mount Hasan">Mount Hasan</a>, and are cited in the volcano's article. My question is not about them, but about whether the mural itself (rather than its interpretation) is genuine. <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://brill.com/downloadpdf/display/title/69400.pdf#page=112">This source</a> says that Mellaart apparently faked some of his "findings", but I don't know if anyone has cast doubt on the particular map/volcano mural. <a href="/wiki/User:Jo-Jo_Eumerus" title="User:Jo-Jo Eumerus">Jo-Jo Eumerus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jo-Jo_Eumerus" title="User talk:Jo-Jo Eumerus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Jo-Jo_Eumerus-20241119125500-James_Mellaart_and_%C3%87atalh%C3%B6y%C3%BCk_&_Mount_Hasan" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:55, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-171" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>The problems with <a href="/wiki/James_Mellaart" title="James Mellaart">James Mellaart</a> were quite real and serious. However, they should not have a significant impact on interpretations of the architecture, features, and artifacts that he excavated at <a href="/wiki/%C3%87atalh%C3%B6y%C3%BCk" title="Çatalhöyük">Çatalhöyük</a>. I'm an archaeologist, and to my knowledge Mellaart was never accused of faking murals. The mural that apparently depicts the volcano and also a settlement with structures resembling those of Çatalhöyük is quite well-known and I think can still be seen either at the site or in its museum (I'm not certain which). I have encountered interpretations of the mural as an eruption of the volcano in books by Mellaart and also in other reliable texts. Let me know if this would benefit from specific citations to literature other than that of Mellaart. I would recommend looking at sources by archaeologist <a href="/wiki/Ian_Hodder" title="Ian Hodder">Ian Hodder</a>, who directed more recent excavations at the site. <a href="/wiki/User:Hoopes" title="User:Hoopes">Hoopes</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hoopes" title="User talk:Hoopes">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Hoopes-20241121220300-Jo-Jo_Eumerus-20241119125500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-172" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(16)"><h2 id="Pseudoarchaeology_on_Rogan" data-mw-thread-id="h-Pseudoarchaeology_on_Rogan-20241120230600">Pseudoarchaeology on Rogan</h2> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=19" title="Edit section: Pseudoarchaeology on Rogan" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> <span id='ooui-php-194' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-Hoopes-20241121215500-Guettarda-20241120230600">2 days ago</a>2 comments2 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-16 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-16"> <a href="/wiki/Joe_Rogan" title="Joe Rogan">Joe Rogan</a> posted <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbW6FTU69bw&ab_channel=PowerfulJRE">a podcast episode</a> today with Jimmy Corsetti and Dan Richards. Dan Richards has been very critical of <a href="/wiki/User:Hoopes" title="User:Hoopes">Hoopes</a> editing on Wikipedia, and used the podcast to attack him, starting <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbW6FTU69bw&ab_channel=PowerfulJREsi=AbQkaw1jm2hbKx98&t=2086">here</a>, and specifically mentioned the <a href="/wiki/Younger_Dryas_impact_hypothesis" title="Younger Dryas impact hypothesis">Younger Dryas impact hypothesis</a>, <a href="/wiki/Graham_Hancock" title="Graham Hancock">Graham Hancock</a> and <a href="/wiki/Pseudoarchaeology" title="Pseudoarchaeology">pseudoarchaeology</a>. I didn't listen much past that (bits here and there) so I'm not sure if they also mentioned other articles. It probably wouldn't hurt to keep an eye on those, given Rogan's reach. <a href="/wiki/User:Guettarda" title="User:Guettarda">Guettarda</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Guettarda" title="User talk:Guettarda">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Guettarda-20241120230600-Pseudoarchaeology_on_Rogan" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:06, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-173" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Thanks for mentioning this. A brief clip of the Joe Rogan podcast episode, but not the bit about Wikipedia, was tweeted by <a href="/wiki/Elon_Musk" title="Elon Musk">Elon Musk</a> this morning. That has helped the podcast to go viral, with over a million views so far. I do not know whether this will have any effect on the <a href="/wiki/Younger_Dryas_impact_hypothesis" title="Younger Dryas impact hypothesis">Younger Dryas impact hypothesis </a> article, but what is not discussed in the podcast is that the principal complaints about "my" editing pertain to an issue in discussion in a note at the top of <a href="/wiki/Talk:Younger_Dryas_impact_hypothesis" title="Talk:Younger Dryas impact hypothesis">Talk:Younger_Dryas_impact_hypothesis</a> about <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:COI" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:COI">WP:COI</a> editing by members of the Comet Research Group. I think this issue, in particular, will require some vigilance. <a href="/wiki/User:Hoopes" title="User:Hoopes">Hoopes</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hoopes" title="User talk:Hoopes">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Hoopes-20241121215500-Guettarda-20241120230600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:55, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-174" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(17)"><h2 id="Adding_claims_unsupported_by_cited_source_in_the_YDIH_article" data-mw-thread-id="h-Adding_claims_unsupported_by_cited_source_in_the_YDIH_article-20241123093900">Adding claims unsupported by cited source in the YDIH article</h2> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=20" title="Edit section: Adding claims unsupported by cited source in the YDIH article" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> <span id='ooui-php-195' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-Slatersteven-20241123110800-77.241.129.12-20241123110400">1 day ago</a>4 comments2 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-17 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-17"> <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Younger_Dryas_impact_hypothesis&diff=prev&oldid=1259094822">[23]</a> <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Younger_Dryas_impact_hypothesis&diff=prev&oldid=1259093412">[24]</a> <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Younger_Dryas_impact_hypothesis&diff=prev&oldid=1259085246">[25]</a> <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Younger_Dryas_impact_hypothesis&diff=prev&oldid=1258636106">[26]</a> I have opened a talk topic, but no editor wishes to engage. I didn't think that arguing against adding things to the article that are not supported by the cited source would be controversial. If the editors wish to add something to the article based on WP:RS, then that WP:RS should support the claim. Or is that just crazy-talk in the postmodern world? <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/77.241.129.12" title="Special:Contributions/77.241.129.12">77.241.129.12</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:77.241.129.12&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:77.241.129.12 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-77.241.129.12-20241123093900-Adding_claims_unsupported_by_cited_source_in_the_YDIH_article" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:39, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-175" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Does not wish, or has not had a chance? <a href="/wiki/User:Slatersteven" title="User:Slatersteven">Slatersteven</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Slatersteven" title="User talk:Slatersteven">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Slatersteven-20241123102900-77.241.129.12-20241123093900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:29, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-176" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>The change has been in dispute for a few days now. I assumed the onus to create a Talk page explaining the addition should be on the one making the addition. Why should I create a Talk page to prove a negative, that the source doesn't support the claim?</dd> <dd>We have a situation now where something has been added to the Wikipedia article without support in the WP:RS, and without explanation, yet to get it removed is an uphill battle.</dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor" title="Hitchens's razor">Hitchen's Razor</a> applies here: "What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence" <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/77.241.129.12" title="Special:Contributions/77.241.129.12">77.241.129.12</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:77.241.129.12&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:77.241.129.12 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-77.241.129.12-20241123110400-Slatersteven-20241123102900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:04, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-177" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>No <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Brd" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Brd">wp:brd</a> is clear, it is down to those wanting to make a change to get consensus for it. And Hitchnes razor has no authority here, we go by our policies. <a href="/wiki/User:Slatersteven" title="User:Slatersteven">Slatersteven</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Slatersteven" title="User talk:Slatersteven">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#c-Slatersteven-20241123110800-77.241.129.12-20241123110400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:08, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-178" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl>    </section></div> 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