Afghanistan and the soldiers without a safety catch | Giles Fraser | Comment is free

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They are dehumanised by training, and made to kill</p> </div> <ul id="content-actions" class="share-links"> <li class="share-links"> <ul> <li class="full-line tweet tweet_button"> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://twitter.com/share" class="twitter-share-button" data-url="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://gu.com/p/365yz/tw" data-via="guardian" data-counturl="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/mar/12/afghanistan-men-without-safety-catch" data-related="commentisfree" data-text="Afghanistan and the soldiers without a safety catch | Giles Fraser">Tweet this</a> </li> <li class="third-party-tool full-line facebook"> <span class="facebook-share"> <a class="facebook-share-btn" href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.facebook.com/dialog/feed?app_id=180444840287&link=http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/mar/12/afghanistan-men-without-safety-catch&display=popup&redirect_uri=http://static-serve.appspot.com/static/facebook-share/callback.html&show_error=false" data-href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/mar/12/afghanistan-men-without-safety-catch" data-link-name="Facebook Share"> <span class="facebook-share-icon"></span> <span class="facebook-share-label">Share</span> <span class="corner-tl"></span> <span class="corner-tr"></span> <span class="corner-bl"></span> <span class="corner-br"></span> </a> </span> </li> <li class="third-party-tool last-line reddit"> <span class="reddit_button"> <a target="http%3A%2F%2Fwww.guardian.co.uk%2Fcommentisfree%2F2012%2Fmar%2F12%2Fafghanistan-men-without-safety-catch&amp;title=" href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.reddit.com/submit?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.guardian.co.uk%2Fcommentisfree%2F2012%2Fmar%2F12%2Fafghanistan-men-without-safety-catch&title=" data-link-name="Reddit image" class="share-this-tracking"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/static/bc264d745e364c365effbfc14bbdd108f667f1af/common/images/icon_reddit.gif"/> </a> <a target="http://www.reddit.com/submit?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.guardian.co.uk%2Fcommentisfree%2F2012%2Fmar%2F12%2Fafghanistan-men-without-safety-catch&amp;title=" href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.reddit.com/submit?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.guardian.co.uk%2Fcommentisfree%2F2012%2Fmar%2F12%2Fafghanistan-men-without-safety-catch&title=" data-link-name="Reddit text" class="share-this-tracking">reddit this</a> </span> </li> </ul> </li> <li class="b3"> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/mar/12/afghanistan-men-without-safety-catch#start-of-comments" class="content-comment-count" short-url="-p-365yz">Comments (<span class="comment-count-val">…</span>)</a> </li> </ul> </div> <div id="content"> <ul class="article-attributes b4"> <li> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/gilesfraser" rel="author"> <img class="contributor-pic-small" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/1/26/1296062495004/gilesfraser_140x140.jpg" width="60" height="60" alt="Giles Fraser" title="Contributor picture"/> </a> </li> <li id="contrib-shift"><ul> <li class="byline"> <div class="contributer-full"> <a class="contributor" rel="author" href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/gilesfraser"> Giles Fraser</a> </div> </li> <li class="publication"> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/">guardian.co.uk</a>, <time datetime="2012-03-12T20:29GMT" pubdate>Monday 12 March 2012 20.29 GMT</time> </li> <li class="history js-show"> <a class="rollover history-link" href="#history-link-box">Article history</a> <div class="toolbox-popup" id="history-link-box" style="width: 460px"> <div class="send-inner"> <div class="share-top"> <h3>About this article</h3> <span><a class="close-toolbox" href="#history-link-box">Close</a></span> </div> <div class="section"> <h1>Afghanistan and the soldiers without a safety catch | Giles Fraser</h1> This article was published on <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/">guardian.co.uk</a> at <time datetime="2012-03-13T00:00GMT" pubdate>20.29 GMT on Monday 12 March 2012</time>. A version appeared on p28 of the <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2012/mar/13/mainsection">Main section</a> section of <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian">the Guardian</a> on <time datetime="2012-03-13" pubdate><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2012/mar/13">Tuesday 13 March 2012</a></time>. It was last modified at <time datetime="2012-03-13T00:06GMT">00.06 GMT on Tuesday 13 March 2012</time>. </div> </div> </div> </li> </ul></li> </ul> <div id="article-wrapper"> <div id="main-content-picture"> <img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/3/12/1331581729261/US-soldier-with-rifle-007.jpg" width="460" height="276" alt="US soldier with rifle"/> <div class="caption">Lt Col Dave Grossman, an ex-psychology lecturer at West Point, writes of a new era ‘of psychological warfare conducted not upon the enemy, but upon one's own troops'. Photograph: Erik De Castro/Reuters</div> </div> <div id="article-body-blocks"> <p>In 1947 the official US historian of the second world war, Brigadier General SLA Marshall, published his groundbreaking book <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.L.A._Marshall" title="">Men Against Fire</a>. Marshall's astonishing contention, debated vigorously ever since, was that about 75% of second world war combat troops were unable to fire their weapons on the enemy. Guns were discharged, but they would be deliberately aimed over the heads of the enemy. The vast majority of soldiers couldn't actually kill. And, in the midst of combat, they became de facto conscientious objectors.</p><p>Plenty of historians have questioned the way Marshall gathered his evidence. But few have denied that the vast majority of people find it extremely difficult to kill another human being. It is one thing to sit in a bunker in Nevada and anonymously direct a drone into attack with a joystick. It is quite another to track a fellow human being in the sights of your rifle or to stick a knife into someone's stomach. Natural human empathy generates huge psychological resistance to up close and personal killing. We have an inbuilt safety catch. So how is it that a <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/11/us-soldier-killing-afghanistan-children?intcmp=239" title="">US soldier can walk into an Afghan village in the middle of the night and calmly shoot 16 civilians</a> dead? Nine of them were children.</p><p>One explanation is the use of psychological conditioning that the US army uses on its own troops in order to prepare them to kill more easily. Both the US and British armies took Marshall's book extremely seriously. A soldier who cannot kill is about as much use as an accountant who cannot count. So the military began to think harder about the ways in which they might override the natural human aversion to killing, turning to the newly developing science of cognitive behavioural psychology for advice. And it worked. When Marshall was sent back to the Korean war in 1953, he found that the new training techniques developed by psychologists had begun to work. Now 55% were able to fire on the enemy. And by Vietnam, it was up to 90%.</p><p>Since human beings first went to war, soldiers have looked for ways of helping them to avoid the full reality of their work. Mostly this is by the creation of emotional distance. The enemy is demeaned as less than human and their culture is ridiculed. And since the second world war two psychological categories in particular have been folded into the design of military training: desensitisation and conditioning. The use of violent films and video games make violence seem ordinary. The culture of barrack-room banter is aggressive and bloodthirsty.</p><p>As well as this, training is deliberately arranged so as to replicate a killing environment. No longer do soldiers shoot at circular targets; they shoot at dummies made to look as much like people as possible. Throughout training, killing is made all too familiar, the act of killing continually rehearsed and re-rehearsed. The process of becoming a modern solider begins with a course of powerful behaviour modification. "A new era has quietly dawned in modern warfare: an era of psychological warfare – psychological warfare conducted not upon the enemy, but upon one's own troops," writes <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Grossman_%28author%29" title="">Lt Col Dave Grossman</a>, a former psychology lecturer at West Point.</p><p>Following this latest massacre in Kandahar there will be much talk of a lone gunman going off the rails. But the truth is more disturbing. One cannot set in place the conditions for easy killing, removing the inbuilt human safety catch, and then simply blame an individual soldier who flips out. And there is no way to ensure that such things do not happen again. This is what happens when soldiers are subject to a systematic process of dehumanisation. The modern idea of a clean and humane war is a total myth. 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Observer switchboard: <br/><span>+44 (0)20 3353 2000</span> </li> <li> <ul> <li> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://adinfo-guardian.co.uk/">Advertising guide</a> </li> <li> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/syndication/">License/buy our content</a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </div> <div class="toolbox-popup" id="history-link-box" style="width: 460px"> <div class="send-inner"> <div class="share-top"> <h3>About this article</h3> <span><a class="close-toolbox" href="#history-link-box">Close</a></span> </div> <div class="section"> <h1>Afghanistan and the soldiers without a safety catch | Giles Fraser</h1> This article was published on <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/">guardian.co.uk</a> at <time datetime="2012-03-13T00:00GMT" pubdate>20.29 GMT on Monday 12 March 2012</time>. A version appeared on p28 of the <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2012/mar/13/mainsection">Main section</a> section of <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian">the Guardian</a> on <time datetime="2012-03-13" pubdate><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2012/mar/13">Tuesday 13 March 2012</a></time>. 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</script> </form> </div> <p class="post-a-comment"> <a class="anchor-based-login-required policy-required-basicCommunity fancy-button fancy-button-inline" href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/article-redirect/3151735">Sign in to comment</a> or <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/https://id.guardian.co.uk/register?returnUrl=http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/mar/12/afghanistan-men-without-safety-catch" title="Click to register" class="signin register-required">create your Guardian account</a> to join the conversation </p> <ul class="comment-legend two-col edge b2"> <li><img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://resource.guim.co.uk/discussion/static/1808/images/icons_staff_16.gif" alt="This symbol indicates that that person is The Guardian's staff" width="16" height="16"/>Staff</li> <li><img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://resource.guim.co.uk/discussion/static/1808/images/icons_contributor_16.gif" alt="This symbol indicates that that person is a contributor" width="16" height="16"/>Contributor</li> </ul> <ul class="discussion-pagination b3"> <li class="view-latest"><a data-nav-type="latest" href="?commentpage=last#end-of-comments">Latest</a></li> <li>1</li> <li class="view-next"><a data-nav-type="next" href="?commentpage=2#start-of-comments">2</a></li> <li class="view-next"><a data-nav-type="next" href="?commentpage=3#start-of-comments">3</a></li> <li class="view-next"><a data-nav-type="next" href="?commentpage=4#start-of-comments">4</a></li> <li class="last view-next"><a data-nav-type="next" href="?commentpage=2#start-of-comments">Next</a></li> <li class="last view-all"><a data-nav-type="all" href="?commentpage=all#start-of-comments">All</a></li> </ul> <div id="discussion-comments"> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15119842"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2010/09/02/cta_262190_20/c2d416cd-a29e-4af9-bfd6-c8362ffb68f2/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/EwanBryson" title="User profile page">EwanBryson</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 8:40PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p><i>The modern idea of a clean and humane war is a total myth. Which is precisely why we ought to think a great deal harder before we start them.</i></p><p>I don't remember 'starting' any wars. You're preaching to the choir here Giles; try getting this message across to the two factions that indulge in such glorified bloodsport: the political puppet masters who pull the strings of their subordinates, be they military, media or again political, and orchestrate such campaigns with the support of a public that is easily swayed by their propaganda or stuck in the mindset that they are powerless to oppose their governments; and the extremists of whatever motivation, be it political or religious, who present themselves as such irresistible targets/scapegoats for the ulterior motives that feed such forays.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15119842);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15119842">22</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15119842"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15119842"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15119842" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15119848"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/nyewasright" title="User profile page">nyewasright</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 8:40PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>So are the police it is a necessary aspect of an oppressive unelected cartel of profiteering misfits.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15119848);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15119848">9</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15119848"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15119848"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15119848" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15119850"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/Mulefish" title="User profile page">Mulefish</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 8:40PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>No. It's none of that crap above.</p><p>These are the people who are still putting Rosa Parks off the bus into a prison cell for not giving up he seat to a white man.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15119850);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15119850">13</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15119850"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15119850"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15119850" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15119914"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2012/03/09/SteroidMaximus/1242efb9-897d-4a15-bd1b-b7e54596ca98/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/SteroidMaximus" title="User profile page">SteroidMaximus</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 8:45PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>All i can gather in the light of the latest tragedy in afghanistan is that the US have a twisted distorted concept of justice.On one hand they cruxify a man like Bradley Manning for having a conscience and on the other they bend over backwards to protect and excuse psycopath soldiers.This tells me those who pull the strings in the whithouse and Pentagon are all fuckheads no better than the twisted fucks who pull the triggers.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15119914);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15119914">98</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (3) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a 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src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2012/01/26/daffers56/e576044a-3dec-4dbd-a226-cd27a8fb1c88/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/daffers56" title="User profile page">daffers56</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 8:46PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>Hilary Clinton on C4 News this evening trying to come across as sincere. The hypocrisy is sickening from a Govt who sends drones to kill and maim civillians. It is time the US Govt sought professional advice for their addiction to wars!</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15119937);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15119937">76</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15119937"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15119937"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15119937" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15119949"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/Viridis" title="User profile page">Viridis</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 8:47PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>It's a little known fact that similar desensitisation training is carried out on Tory MPs.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15119949);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15119949">13</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15119949"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15119949"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15119949" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15119969"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2010/08/23/harryboy/e32ba179-6355-43d3-bf79-e4175941df2a/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/harryboy" title="User profile page">harryboy</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 8:49PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p class="moderated">This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/community-standards">community standards</a>. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/community-faqs">our FAQs</a>.</p> </div> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15119978"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2012/01/26/daffers56/e576044a-3dec-4dbd-a226-cd27a8fb1c88/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/daffers56" title="User profile page">daffers56</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 8:50PM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15119914">SteroidMaximus, 12 March 2012 8:45PM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>Good Post SteroidMaximus. They have learnt nothing from the atrocities of Mai Lai etc. Blame the soldiers whilst those at the top feign moral outrage.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15119978);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15119978">42</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15119978"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15119978"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15119978" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15119982"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2011/12/20/Kerfuffling/48693c55-b71e-4c55-9815-187629f6ec37/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/Kerfuffling" title="User profile page">Kerfuffling</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 8:50PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <blockquote><p>When Marshall was sent back to the Korean war in 1953, he found that the new training techniques developed by psychologists had begun to work. Now 55% were able to fire on the enemy. And by Vietnam, it was up to 90%.</p></blockquote><p>You have to take in to account the conflicts in question. In Europe it would be reasonable to suggest a situation of not killing a fellow much like yourself. I doubt that was true for the Pacific theatre, due to the known factors of no Geneva convention and the enemies thoughts about you.</p><p>With the later conflicts this would also be true. It was a matter of killing as many of them as possible may well ensure your survival. A case of having to win the fight or die sooner or later.</p><p>What is also storing up is when service personel have completed their service and return to civvie street, still unprogrammed, but required to be on reserve. It may well be years later that psychological problems begin.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15119982);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15119982">9</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15119982"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15119982"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15119982" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15119983"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2011/08/30/futdashukup/6243d304-c3e0-4d1a-aa30-e8bf7cac5fa6/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/futdashukup" title="User profile page">futdashukup</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 8:50PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>According to a 2006 United States Geological Survey , there is $1 trillion worth of mineral deposits , untapped in Afghanistan, particularly Lithium, used in mobile phones, of which Afghanistan has the world's largest deposits. </p><p>So, we're there to guard that.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15119983);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15119983">25</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15119983"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15119983"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15119983" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120033"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2011/12/27/Brownly/361b4a76-61c9-48d2-abd9-3293c1a52a2d/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/Brownly" title="User profile page">Brownly</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 8:54PM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15119914">SteroidMaximus, 12 March 2012 8:45PM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>Eh? The US haven't protected (beyond keeping him alive) or excused the bloke who did this. He's been arrested and will no doubt face court martial, most likely outcome - execution. Unless he's so round the twist he's bunged directly into a straight-jacket.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120033);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120033">14</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120033"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120033"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120033" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120043"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2010/08/31/Leopold1904/d3d3b838-0dc7-44e4-a9f9-7a8de5c674f8/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/Leopold1904" title="User profile page">Leopold1904</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 8:55PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>Reading Giles on soldeoiring is pretty much what it must be like to read Sarah Jessica Parker on diesel engine repair - you are aware of some conscientious googling but it's not home turf.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120043);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120043">23</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120043"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120043"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120043" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120069"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/nyewasright" title="User profile page">nyewasright</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 8:58PM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15119937">daffers56, 12 March 2012 8:46PM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>Indeed she could hardly be less sincere. The world now regards foreigners lives as less value,people are simply a commodity.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120069);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120069">17</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120069"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120069"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120069" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120073"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/WiltshireIndy" title="User profile page">WiltshireIndy</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 8:58PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>If you can read & write,thank a teacher. If you can read & write in English thank a soldier.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120073);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120073">16</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120073"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120073"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120073" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120077"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2011/03/01/engineman/f473e6c4-a299-46f3-bc91-abeba4b026e9/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/engineman" title="User profile page">engineman</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 8:59PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <blockquote><p><i>No longer do soldiers shoot at circular targets</i></p></blockquote><p>Utter tosh, just using Google you can find pictures of soldiers in ww1 bayonetting dummies lying on the ground or hanging from scaffold. Soldiers have fired, stabbed and speared at targets with the image of another soldier since they could make a weapon.</p><p>The reason that some soldiers throw a wobbly and go off the head is the opposite of what you say.</p><p>Soldiers in most western countries are trained to be effective in all forms of soldiering being it digging holes or firing their weapon. What they are not trained in is restraint when the heat is on although politicians and their enemy expect it.</p><p> When your fellow countrymen are being blown up and killed by a barbaric inhuman race of low educated thugs screaming some incomprehensible oath to their god killing their own without impunity and anybody else that doesn't fit in with their ideology, act with disrespect for human life, wage war on unprotected civilians then it's amazing that incidents like this isn’t common place.<br>If anybody thinks any different then let them go and walk the streets of Afghanistan, countries riddled with criminals, thugs, drug dealers and corruption and see for themselves the depravity that a people can do to its own.</p><p>The answer, pull our troops out, close the borders, especially that of Pakistan and let them murder and main their own women and children because they have a really good track record in their own way conducting war.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120077);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120077">39</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120077"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120077"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120077" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120083"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/BABELrevisited" title="User profile page">BABELrevisited</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 8:59PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>Are amphetamines standard issue for american soldiers still?</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120083);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120083">12</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120083"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120083"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120083" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120099"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2012/03/09/SteroidMaximus/1242efb9-897d-4a15-bd1b-b7e54596ca98/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/SteroidMaximus" title="User profile page">SteroidMaximus</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 9:00PM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120033">Brownly, 12 March 2012 8:54PM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>"Eh? The US haven't protected (beyond keeping him alive) or excused the bloke who did this. He's been arrested and will no doubt face court martial, most likely outcome - execution. Unless he's so round the twist he's bunged directly into a straight-jacket"</p><p><br>Obviously you have more faith in the American justice system than i.</p><p>Time for a pint-this shit is so depressing.Have a good night.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120099);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120099">31</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120099"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120099"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120099" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120104"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2012/03/09/SteroidMaximus/1242efb9-897d-4a15-bd1b-b7e54596ca98/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/SteroidMaximus" title="User profile page">SteroidMaximus</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 9:01PM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15119978">daffers56, 12 March 2012 8:50PM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>Cheers.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120104);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120104">3</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120104"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120104"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120104" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120127"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/nyewasright" title="User profile page">nyewasright</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 9:03PM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120099">SteroidMaximus, 12 March 2012 9:00PM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>The American justice system like everything else in America is run by evangelical inbred right wing lunatics.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120127);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120127">70</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120127"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120127"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120127" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120131"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/omegamann" title="User profile page">omegamann</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 9:03PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>And yet, the vast majority of Spree Killers are civilians.</p><p>Strange that.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120131);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120131">13</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120131"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120131"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile 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are civilians.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120165);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120165">10</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120165"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120165"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a 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I was right - most likely outcome is execution.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120183);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120183">14</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120183"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120183"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a 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Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120200"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2012/01/07/kristinekochanski/034ee7ec-b175-477f-a209-636cf9bd29bb/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/kristinekochanski" title="User profile page">kristinekochanski</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 9:08PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>There is definitely a lot of evidence that some ex military forces find it difficult to adust to civilian life & have higher rates of relationship breakdown, addictions, homelessness & unemployment than the general population.</p><p>So there must be a negative impact on some people's ability to handle their experiences & you do have to wonder what role the Army has in making them aggressive.</p><p>It is not really surprising if some of them crack up under the pressure - haven't there always been cases like this? Maybe they need to have a bit more weeding out before they put a gun in the hand of someone who might not be stable enough to cope with that. But you could never pre-screen everybody with enough accuracy to prevent incidents of this nature.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120200);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120200">8</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120200"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120200"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile 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class="comment-body"> <p>So basically, the article that military training is likely to encourage spree killing, is basically rubbish?</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120203);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120203">5</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120203"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120203"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120203" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120209"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2010/08/22/calmeilles/09823ab9-e9d0-4a0c-9173-90acd4531ca5/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/calmeilles" title="User profile page">calmeilles</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 9:08PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <blockquote><p>They are dehumanised by training, and made to kill</p></blockquote><p>While this is to a degree true in all armies it should be noted that it is so to <i>different </i>degrees in <i>different </i>armies between which there can be startling variations in philosophy.</p><p>A US army lieutenant assigned as liaison to a British company in Iraq was appalled, saying that he couldn't command such men<i> because they asked questions about their orders!</i></p><p>Of the Nato military it seems that the US army is most likely to produce "dehumanised" soldiers but even there it's an extreme rather than a prevalent condition.</p><p>I would not like to be read as an advocate of militarism; just to suggest that circumstances and conditions are far more complex than the article seems to suggest.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120209);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120209">23</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120209"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120209"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120209" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120218"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/borleg" title="User profile page">borleg</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 9:09PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>Everyone is capable of killing, though few people would commit murder.<br>Defending your home and family from the <i>enemy</i> is one thing, travelling thousands of miles to slaughter people takes a well-groomed military machine,<br>with superior propaganda techniques and an inexhaustable supply of cretins.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120218);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120218">33</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (2) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120218"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120218"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120218" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120224"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/Vorlon" title="User profile page">Vorlon</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 9:09PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>Remind me again which army trained the killer at Dunblane, or Columbine or...</p><p>Well you get the point</p><p>Every day somebody ends up snapping and killing - sometimes quite a lot of people - invariably these never seem to have been "trained" to do this.</p><p>In fact given the extreme pressure most soldiers in a civil war and insurgency are under I am only surprised more of them don't go off the deep end.</p><p>I would suggest it is a tribute to western recruitment, training and the morality of the miliatry code that cases of excess are in fact remarkably low - compared to say - Syria, Libya, Russia, China, Sri Lanka etc etc.</p><p>I's also point out that unlike say - Syria, Libya, Russia, China and Sri Lanka etc etc the West generally holds it's soldiers to a much higher standard and punishes them when they do fall short.</p><p>The very fact that you can report this freely without the friends of the general leaning on your editor or chopping your hands off with a machete would suggest you take for granted what the soldiers to affect despise are willing to endure to keep in your nice safe liberal cocoon.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120224);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120224">26</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (3) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120224"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120224"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120224" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120233"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/nafnaf" title="User profile page">nafnaf</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 9:09PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>I would think that an important question, not addressed here, is whether soldiers run amuck more often or less often than in the past with today's training. My bet is that the number of incidents today is far, far lower than in the past. </p><p>This view is based on reading that, compared with past conflicts, fewer incidents of "collateral damage" occur today than was the case in the past. You might read, Mr. Fraser, if you are interested, William Hichcock's stellar book, <i>The Bitter Road to Freedom: A New History of the Liberation of Europe</i>.</p><p>Please note that I am not making an argument for war or, more particularly, the Afghanistan war. It is merely the observation that the author of this article, Mr. Fraser, seems not to have considered his position sufficiently, at least not yet. </p><p>Consider, Mr. Fraser, that the incident in Afghanistan, as terrible as it may be, is simply not a sufficient basis to form the opinion you have asserted. Rather, you have confused a terrible anecdote with a pattern. And, compared to the horrors that occurred during WWII, what well trained armies in the West do today is rather restrained compared to in earlier times. Again, read Professor Hichcock's book. It is an eye opener.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120233);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120233">7</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120233"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120233"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a 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China who'd disagree.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120240);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120240">10</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120240"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120240"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a 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not an expert) instructs a soldier in a regular line unit in the methods of entering houses alone, and executing sleeping families.<br>This sort of behaviour, spree killing, occurs in civilian settings, and one of the most notable cases in the UK was Michael Ryan, who was an army fantasist with exactly none of the safety catches that military training provides to prevent this sort of occurrence.<br>The provision of arms to an individual who may harbour unresolved mental health issues may well facilitate such events, but by looking at similar events spree killing seems to be a civilian, not military problem</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120274);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120274">14</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120274"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120274"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120274" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120276"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/ub313" title="User profile page">ub313</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 9:14PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>Torturers and murderers all over the world. It really is hard not to despair sometimes.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120276);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120276">8</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120276"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120276"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120276" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120296"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2010/08/23/Germanlady/5544de31-1163-401f-a334-a4ce3c30c257/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/Germanlady" title="User profile page">Germanlady</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 9:16PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>Good article. It touches in a similar topic to the one written by Jill Filipovic <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/feb/21/us-more-men-raped-than-women" rel="nofollow"> Is the US the only country where more men are raped than women?</a> Ffear and aggression is something that is being used to control people's behaviour. Ever since 9/11 the world powers have raffed several gears up when it came to promoting the necessity of violence, using fear and insecurities to legitimise torture and killings.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120296);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120296">14</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120296"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120296"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120296" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120323"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2012/01/25/JanBurton/ab252d4e-e07f-46dd-9b5f-54e2596d7e7a/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/JanBurton" title="User profile page">JanBurton</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 9:19PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>It's easy to think that training methods have turned today's soldiers into killers, compared to the angelic heroes of WWII.</p><p>But the fact of the matter is that even back then western soldiers would occasionally rape and kill civilians. It wasn't as publicized, but it did happen now and then.</p><p>In fact when it comes to deliberately targeting civilians, WWII probably holds the record as far as our armies are concerned. Not even Hanoi received the Dresden/Tokyo treatment.</p><p>The sort of face-to-face massacre that happened the other day in Afghanistan has always been a rarity among US/UK/NATO forces. There's a reason why the names Mai Lai and Haditha are burned into our minds and it isn't because such slaughter was a daily occurrence. Generally speaking, western troops kill civilians by accident as opposed to deliberate mass murder (not that it makes a difference to the victims).</p><p>This isn't really about training so much as it is the harsh reality of war. When you give guns to scared young men patrolling a foreign land, bad shit will happen. You can give soldiers the most humane training on earth and some will occasionally commit massacres regardless.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120323);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120323">13</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120323"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120323"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120323" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120336"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2010/08/27/truebluetah/5d426c37-1845-4205-a866-53bd643ef9bd/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/truebluetah" title="User profile page">truebluetah</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 9:20PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <blockquote><p>One cannot set in place the conditions for easy killing, removing the inbuilt human safety catch, and then simply blame an individual soldier who flips out. And there is no way to ensure that such things do not happen again. This is what happens when soldiers are subject to a systematic process of dehumanisation.</p></blockquote><p> There are countless examples of people with no military training carrying out massacres of civilians, so one example can't show that military training makes a difference. Wider research into the rate of spree killings might point the finger more reliably but there's none of that in this piece.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120336);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120336">9</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120336"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120336"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120336" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120347"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/ub313" title="User profile page">ub313</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 9:21PM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120073">WiltshireIndy, 12 March 2012 8:58PM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>And where would dictators be without soldiers?</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120347);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120347">2</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120347"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120347"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120347" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120382"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/Vorlon" title="User profile page">Vorlon</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 9:23PM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120218">borleg, 12 March 2012 9:09PM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <blockquote><p>travelling thousands of miles to slaughter people takes .....superior propaganda techniques and an inexhaustable supply of cretins.</p></blockquote><p>You seem to have summed up the Islamo-Fascist mindset pretty well.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120382);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120382">19</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120382"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120382"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120382" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120385"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/BriscoRant" title="User profile page">BriscoRant</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 9:23PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>Giles has a point. </p><p>I wonder how many other times, soldiers have run amok in Afghanistan - and we didnt get to hear?</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120385);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120385">19</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120385"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120385"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li 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class="comment-body"> <blockquote><p>According to a 2006 United States Geological Survey , there is $1 trillion worth of mineral deposits , untapped in Afghanistan, particularly Lithium, used in mobile phones, of which Afghanistan has the world's largest deposits.</p><p>So, we're there to guard that.</p></blockquote><p>Are we actually going to extract these minerals, or will we just endlessly guard then like how we've supposedly been guarding the pipelines that never seem to get built?</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120398);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120398">6</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (3) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120398"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120398"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120398" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120435"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/BriscoRant" title="User profile page">BriscoRant</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 9:27PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>So now that we know, that some of the oh-so-well trained soldiers do go amok and kill civilians- when will we see the military trainers held to account for responsibility? </p><p>In WWII, a certain Mr Eichmann simply organised trains and did his job efficiently. But he knew damned well where those trains went, and who they carried - and he swung for it.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120435);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120435">3</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120435"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120435"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120435" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120450"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/omegamann" title="User profile page">omegamann</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 9:28PM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120398">JanBurton, 12 March 2012 9:24PM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>Guard it from whom? I mean, it's not like the Middle East is full of western contractors mainly specialising in how to get the black gold out of the ground...</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120450);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120450">3</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120450"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120450"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120450" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120455"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/Marquest1" title="User profile page">Marquest1</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 9:28PM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120193">truthfairy, 12 March 2012 9:07PM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <blockquote><p>In the final analysis, America's record on human rights is no better than China's</p></blockquote><p>Only if that analysis is conducted by the Chinese. Or a wannabe Chomsky leftist.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120455);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120455">10</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120455"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120455"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120455" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120469"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/Vorlon" title="User profile page">Vorlon</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 9:29PM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120347">ub313, 12 March 2012 9:21PM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <blockquote><p>And where would dictators be without soldiers?</p></blockquote><p>They'd probably go into coalition government and claim to have moderated the worst excesses.....</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120469);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120469">2</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120469"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120469"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120469" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120473"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2010/10/24/DavidPavett/5253a26c-21ae-4d6b-b6fc-65e76d83e2d0/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/DavidPavett" title="User profile page">DavidPavett</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 9:29PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <blockquote><p>... how is it that a US soldier can walk into an Afghan village in the middle of the night and calmly shoot 16 civilians dead? Nine of them were children.</p></blockquote><blockquote><p>One explanation is the use of psychological conditioning that the US army uses on its own troops in order to prepare them to kill more easily.</p></blockquote><p>We need to establish the need for that sort of explanation given the propensity of Americans, even in civilian life, to expressed their unhinged state by getting a gun and shooting other people.</p><p>I think that we would learn more from putting the problem into a historical context. People have always been prepared to do unspeakable things to others. Well that's our way of seeing it (and quite right too) but in the past people were less likely to see it that way. Steven Pinker's recent book <b>The Better Angels of our Nature</b> gives pretty good evidence that tendency to resort to violence as a way of resolving differences has diminished in a pronounced manner down the centuries. </p><p>And of course, as Giles Fraser knows, we don't even have to look beyond the Bible to find ways of producing the mindset required. Psalm 137 famously says</p><blockquote><p>Happy shall they be who take your little ones<br>and dash them against the rock</p></blockquote><p>The Old Testament, especially the Pentateuch, is full of the most foul violence and it is generally committed with God's blessing, advice and/or assistance.</p><p>So, when religion was in the driving seat is had its psychological techniques for preparing people for violence. Modern secular society has its techniques which are certainly no more attractive. On the other hand the general level of violence within and between communities has tended to reduce as secular society has advanced.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120473);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120473">10</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120473"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120473"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120473" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120481"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2012/01/25/JanBurton/ab252d4e-e07f-46dd-9b5f-54e2596d7e7a/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/JanBurton" title="User profile page">JanBurton</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 9:30PM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120224">Vorlon, 12 March 2012 9:09PM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <blockquote><p>I would suggest it is a tribute to western recruitment, training and the morality of the miliatry code that cases of excess are in fact remarkably low - compared to say - Syria, Libya, Russia, China, Sri Lanka etc etc.</p></blockquote><p>Indeed, it's a testament to the professionalism of our soldiers that massacres happen so rarely.</p><p>In 2011 over 90% of civilian deaths come at the hands of the Taliban (according to the UN). The difference is that we expect high standards for ourselves and no standards from the enemy.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120481);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120481">15</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120481"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120481"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120481" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120518"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2011/10/27/Rabbit8/eef9c241-b17e-4fd7-bc1d-87574ce165ac/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/Rabbit8" title="User profile page">Rabbit8</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 9:32PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>"The social psychology of this century reveals a major lesson: often it is not so much the kind of person a man is as the kind of situation in which he finds himself that determines how he will act." –Stanley Milgram, 1974</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120518);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120518">5</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120518"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120518"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120518" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120528"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/BriscoRant" title="User profile page">BriscoRant</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 9:32PM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120077">engineman, 12 March 2012 8:59PM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <blockquote><p>.... your fellow countrymen are being blown up and killed by a barbaric inhuman race of low educated thugs screaming some incomprehensible oath to their god killing their own without impunity and anybody else that doesn't fit in with their ideology, act with disrespect for human life, wage war on unprotected civilians then it's amazing that incidents like this isn’t common place.<br>If anybody thinks any different then let them go and walk the streets of Afghanistan, countries riddled with criminals, thugs, drug dealers and corruption and see for themselves the depravity ......</p></blockquote><p>As Mr Fraser says - one standard military training method, that helps soldiers to kill people - is to make those people seem less-than-human, and to ridicule their culture. And I guess to portray them as some type of race</p><p>Had some of that training, yourself, then, have you?</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120528);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120528">26</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120528"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120528"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120528" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120530"> <li class="comment-author"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/discussion/avatars/2010/09/02/cta_262190_20/c2d416cd-a29e-4af9-bfd6-c8362ffb68f2/60x60.png" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/HorseCart" title="User profile page">HorseCart</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 9:32PM</p> </div> <div class="response-to"> Response to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15119842">EwanBryson, 12 March 2012 8:40PM</a> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <p>People in the Church of England aren't really very practised in getting out and finding new converts. They are more used to sitting back, watching their congregations shrink towards a vanishing point, and wondering whether the tax free legacies that they get from the late-to-mortality, newly-fearful-of-dying, wealthy aged .. whether these legacies will survive the outright theft by bankers and financiers.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120530);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120530">2</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (0) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120530"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120530"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120530" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class="comment b2" id="comment-15120557"> <li class="comment-author" id="end-of-comments"> <div class="badges"> </div> <div class="profile"> <img class="author-profile-picture" src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/09/01/no-user-image.gif" height="60" width="60" alt=""/> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user/SoundMoney" title="User profile page">SoundMoney</a> <p class="date">12 March 2012 9:35PM</p> </div> <div class="comment-body"> <blockquote><p>So how is it that a US soldier can walk into an Afghan village in the middle of the night and calmly shoot 16 civilians dead? </p></blockquote><p>The jury's out, I'm not clairvoyant. But I would not be surprised to find it was some sort of response to the deaths of 30-odd people following the ludicrous Quran-burning incident.</p><p>Ludicrous because Quarans were burned, crassly insensitively. Ludicrous because fuckwit desert tribesmen bother to take such an issue remotely seriously, let alone visit death upon people who were almost certainly personally innocent of the offence.</p><p>If this is an enlightened religion, ban it. In fact, ban them all. It would save lives.</p> </div> </li> <li class="comment-tools"> <ul> <li class="recomended"> <a title="Recommend this comment" class="recommend" onclick="recommendComment(15120557);return false;">Recommend?</a> (<span class="recommended" id="recommended-count-15120557">13</span>) </li> <li class="reply"> Responses (1) </li> <li class="abuse-report"> <a class="report-abuse " href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/report-abuse/comment/15120557"> Report </a> </li> <li class="clip"> <form action="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/clippings/add" method="get"> <input type="hidden" name="microappName" value="discussion-main"/> <input type="hidden" name="microappItemId" value="comment-15120557"/> <input class="form-based-login-required package-required-RCO" type="submit" value="Clip" title="Add this comment to your profile bookmarks"/> </form> </li> <li class="link">| <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15120557" title="Permalink to this comment" alt="Permalink to this comment"> Link </a> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> </div> </div> <ul class="discussion-pagination b3"> <li class="view-latest"><a data-nav-type="latest" href="?commentpage=last#end-of-comments">Latest</a></li> <li>1</li> <li class="view-next"><a data-nav-type="next" href="?commentpage=2#start-of-comments">2</a></li> <li class="view-next"><a data-nav-type="next" href="?commentpage=3#start-of-comments">3</a></li> <li class="view-next"><a data-nav-type="next" href="?commentpage=4#start-of-comments">4</a></li> <li class="last view-next"><a data-nav-type="next" href="?commentpage=2#start-of-comments">Next</a></li> <li class="last view-all"><a data-nav-type="all" href="?commentpage=all#start-of-comments">All</a></li> </ul> </span> <span class="trackable-component component-wrapper eight-col" data-component="microapp: discussion-main : fetchPostCommentForm : comments"> <div id="post-area"> <div id="login-container"> <a class="anchor-based-login-required policy-required-basicCommunity fancy-button fancy-button-inline" href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/article-redirect/3151735">Sign in to comment</a> or <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/https://id.guardian.co.uk/register?returnUrl=http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/article-redirect/3151735" title="Click to register" class="signin register-required">create your Guardian account</a> to join the conversation </div> </div> <script type="text/javascript"> jQ(document).ready(function(){ // check jQuery UI hasn't been loaded in by a microapp. short-term fix. if (!jQuery.ui) { jQ.getScript('http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://resource.guim.co.uk/discussion/static/1808/jquery-ui-1.7.3.custom.min.js'); } }); </script> <script type="text/javascript"> function fix_domain_for_careers(url){ var re, fixed_url; var careers_length = "careers".length; if (window.location.host.substr(0, careers_length) === "careers") { re = /http:\/\/web.archive.org\/web\/20120313020546\/http:\/\/www\./; fixed_url = url.replace(re, "http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://careers."); } else { re = /http:\/\/web.archive.org\/web\/20120313020546\/http:\/\/careers\./; fixed_url = url.replace(re, "http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www."); } return fixed_url; } jQ(function() { fixPluckCommentUrl('http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/api/resolvePluckCommentKey?pluck-comment-keys=&callback='); var loading_box = jQ("<div class='report-form-loading'>Loading</div>"); jQ('a.report-abuse:not(.no-abuse-popup)').live('click', function(ev) { ev.preventDefault(); loading_box.dialog({ title: "Abuse report", draggable: false, modal: true, width: 400, minHeight: 320, resizable: false, beforeclose: function(event, ui) { var readOnly = jQ('.report-abuse-ajax-readonly').length; if(readOnly == 1) return true; var reason = jQ('.report-abuse-ajax-form textarea#id_reason').val(); var thanksPage = jQ('.report-form-loading p[data-abuse-report-accepted-for-comment]').length; if (thanksPage == 0) { thanksPage = jQ('.report-form-loading p[data-abuse-report-accepted-for-profile]').length; } if(thanksPage == 0) { if(reason == 0) { return true; } else { return confirm("Closing this window without pressing \"Report\" will result in your words being lost. 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It's hooked me. But it's not very nice about Arabs is it?</p> <span><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://twitter.com/D_Shariatmadari/statuses/179326792220409856">about 3 hours, 57 minutes ago</a></span> </li> <li class="l1 tweet"> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://twitter.com/mattseaton"><img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546im_/http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/52324609/matt_seaton_normal.jpg" alt="mattseaton" height="40" width="40"/></a> <p><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://twitter.com/mattseaton"><strong>mattseaton:</strong></a> A generous and articulate piece of advocacy for Johnny Depp playing Tonto in The Lone Ranger by <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://twitter.com/JustARezChick:" target="_new">@JustARezChick:</a> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20120313020546/http://t.co/uknn6kpN" target="_new">http://t.co/uknn6kpN</a></p> <span><a 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