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.class-sl{background-color:#FFC0C0}.mw-parser-output .class-list{background-color:#D2C0FF}.mw-parser-output .class-na{background-color:#F5F5F5}.mw-parser-output .class-category{background-color:#FFDB58}.mw-parser-output .class-disambig{background-color:#00FA9A}.mw-parser-output .class-draft{background-color:#E7B198}.mw-parser-output .class-file{background-color:#DDCCFF}.mw-parser-output .class-future{background-color:#B4BBFF}.mw-parser-output .class-portal{background-color:#DDB1BC}.mw-parser-output .class-project{background-color:#C0C090}.mw-parser-output .class-redirect{background-color:#C0C0C0}.mw-parser-output .class-sia{background-color:#E9DAFF}.mw-parser-output .class-user{background-color:#DDD06A}.mw-parser-output .class-template{background-color:#FBCEB1}.mw-parser-output .class-unassessed{background-color:#DCDCDC}.mw-parser-output .conflict{border:0.2em solid red}.mw-parser-output .inactive-wikiproject .wpb-header-bubbles{color:inherit}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}</style><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Treasury_of_Athens_at_Delphi.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Treasury_of_Athens_at_Delphi.jpg/16px-Treasury_of_Athens_at_Delphi.jpg" decoding="async" width="16" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Treasury_of_Athens_at_Delphi.jpg/25px-Treasury_of_Athens_at_Delphi.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Treasury_of_Athens_at_Delphi.jpg/33px-Treasury_of_Athens_at_Delphi.jpg 2x" data-file-width="1024" data-file-height="1536"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Architecture" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Architecture">Architecture</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-mid">Mid‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Treasury_of_Athens_at_Delphi.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Treasury_of_Athens_at_Delphi.jpg/60px-Treasury_of_Athens_at_Delphi.jpg" decoding="async" width="60" height="90" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Treasury_of_Athens_at_Delphi.jpg/90px-Treasury_of_Athens_at_Delphi.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Treasury_of_Athens_at_Delphi.jpg/120px-Treasury_of_Athens_at_Delphi.jpg 2x" data-file-width="1024" data-file-height="1536"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1259569809">.mw-parser-output .portalbox{padding:0;margin:0.5em 0;display:table;box-sizing:border-box;max-width:175px;list-style:none}.mw-parser-output .portalborder{border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:0.1em;background:var(--background-color-neutral-subtle,#f8f9fa)}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-entry{display:table-row;font-size:85%;line-height:110%;height:1.9em;font-style:italic;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-image{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em;vertical-align:middle;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-link{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em;vertical-align:middle}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .portalleft{clear:left;float:left;margin:0.5em 1em 0.5em 0}.mw-parser-output .portalright{clear:right;float:right;margin:0.5em 0 0.5em 1em}}</style><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:P_parthenon.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/P_parthenon.svg/31px-P_parthenon.svg.png" decoding="async" width="31" height="28" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/P_parthenon.svg/47px-P_parthenon.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/P_parthenon.svg/62px-P_parthenon.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="400" data-file-height="360"/></a></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Architecture" title="Portal:Architecture">Architecture portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Architecture" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Architecture">WikiProject Architecture</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/Architecture" title="Architecture">Architecture</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Architecture" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Architecture">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Architecture</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Architecture</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Architecture</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Architecture</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-mid"><a href="/wiki/Category:Mid-importance_Architecture_articles" title="Category:Mid-importance Architecture articles">Mid</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Mid-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Architecture/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Architecture/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259570071"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:L%27Enfant_plan.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/L%27Enfant_plan.svg/31px-L%27Enfant_plan.svg.png" decoding="async" width="31" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/L%27Enfant_plan.svg/47px-L%27Enfant_plan.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/L%27Enfant_plan.svg/62px-L%27Enfant_plan.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="3822" data-file-height="3093"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Urban_studies_and_planning" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Urban studies and planning">Urban studies and planning</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-high">High‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:L%27Enfant_plan.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/L%27Enfant_plan.svg/70px-L%27Enfant_plan.svg.png" decoding="async" width="70" height="57" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/L%27Enfant_plan.svg/105px-L%27Enfant_plan.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/L%27Enfant_plan.svg/140px-L%27Enfant_plan.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="3822" data-file-height="3093"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259569809"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:P_parthenon.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/P_parthenon.svg/31px-P_parthenon.svg.png" decoding="async" width="31" height="28" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/P_parthenon.svg/47px-P_parthenon.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/P_parthenon.svg/62px-P_parthenon.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="400" data-file-height="360"/></a></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Architecture" title="Portal:Architecture">Architecture portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Urban_studies_and_planning" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Urban studies and planning">WikiProject Urban studies and planning</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/Urban_studies_and_planning" class="mw-redirect" title="Urban studies and planning">Urban studies and planning</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Urban_studies_and_planning" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Urban studies and planning">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Urban studies and planning</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Urban studies and planning</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Urban studies and planning</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Urban studies and planning</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-high"><a href="/wiki/Category:High-importance_Urban_studies_and_planning_articles" title="Category:High-importance Urban studies and planning articles">High</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>High-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Urban_studies_and_planning/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Urban studies and planning/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259570071"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Terrestrial_globe.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/6b/Terrestrial_globe.svg/26px-Terrestrial_globe.svg.png" decoding="async" width="26" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/6b/Terrestrial_globe.svg/39px-Terrestrial_globe.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/6b/Terrestrial_globe.svg/51px-Terrestrial_globe.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="321" data-file-height="312"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Cities" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities">Cities</a> </td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Terrestrial_globe.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/6b/Terrestrial_globe.svg/80px-Terrestrial_globe.svg.png" decoding="async" width="80" height="78" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/6b/Terrestrial_globe.svg/120px-Terrestrial_globe.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/6b/Terrestrial_globe.svg/160px-Terrestrial_globe.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="321" data-file-height="312"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259569809"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b5/COL-city_icon.png/28px-COL-city_icon.png" decoding="async" width="28" height="28" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b5/COL-city_icon.png/42px-COL-city_icon.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b5/COL-city_icon.png/56px-COL-city_icon.png 2x" data-file-width="500" data-file-height="500"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Cities" title="Portal:Cities">Cities portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Cities" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities">WikiProject Cities</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/City" title="City">cities</a>, <a href="/wiki/Town" title="Town">towns</a> and various other <a href="/wiki/Human_settlement" title="Human settlement">settlements</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Cities" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cities">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Cities</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Cities</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">WikiProject Cities</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259570071"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table inactive-wikiproject"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:People_icon_dead.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/People_icon_dead.svg/25px-People_icon_dead.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/People_icon_dead.svg/38px-People_icon_dead.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/People_icon_dead.svg/50px-People_icon_dead.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="100" data-file-height="100"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Community" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Community">Community</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles"> (<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:INACTIVEWP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:INACTIVEWP">inactive</a>)</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:People_icon_dead.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/People_icon_dead.svg/40px-People_icon_dead.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/People_icon_dead.svg/60px-People_icon_dead.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/People_icon_dead.svg/80px-People_icon_dead.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="100" data-file-height="100"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article is within the scope of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Community" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Community">WikiProject Community</a>, a project which is currently considered to be <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:INACTIVEWP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:INACTIVEWP">inactive</a></b>.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Community</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Community</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Community</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Community</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259570071"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Vista_Login_Manager_Cropped.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Vista_Login_Manager_Cropped.svg/33px-Vista_Login_Manager_Cropped.svg.png" decoding="async" width="33" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Vista_Login_Manager_Cropped.svg/50px-Vista_Login_Manager_Cropped.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Vista_Login_Manager_Cropped.svg/66px-Vista_Login_Manager_Cropped.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="100" data-file-height="76"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Sociology" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Sociology">Sociology</a> </td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Vista_Login_Manager_Cropped.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Vista_Login_Manager_Cropped.svg/80px-Vista_Login_Manager_Cropped.svg.png" decoding="async" width="80" height="61" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Vista_Login_Manager_Cropped.svg/120px-Vista_Login_Manager_Cropped.svg.png 1.5x, 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The aim is to write <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view">neutral</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Cite_sources" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Cite sources">well-referenced</a> articles on environment-related topics, as well as to ensure that environment articles are properly <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Categories">categorized</a>.<br/> Read <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Contributing_FAQ" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Contributing FAQ">Wikipedia:Contributing FAQ</a> and leave any messages at the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Environment" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Environment">project talk page</a>.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Environment</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Environment</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Environment</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Environment</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-high"><a href="/wiki/Category:High-importance_Environment_articles" title="Category:High-importance Environment articles">High</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>High-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Environment/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Environment/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Sustainable_development.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/Sustainable_development.svg/40px-Sustainable_development.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/Sustainable_development.svg/60px-Sustainable_development.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/Sustainable_development.svg/79px-Sustainable_development.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="512" data-file-height="326"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article is supported by <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Environment/Sustainability_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Environment/Sustainability task force">the Sustainability task force</a></b>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Untitled" data-mw-thread-id="h-Untitled-2021-02-11T08:27:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Untitled-2021-02-11T08:27:00.000Z"></span>Untitled<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Untitled-2021-02-11T08:27:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:15-minute_city&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Untitled"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jkolli-2021-02-11T08:27:00.000Z-Untitled"></span>Hello! This is a stub that I'd like to add more detail to, including ongoing discussions of the concept during the COVID-19 pandemic, as well as Anne Hidalgo's plan in Paris. More information can be found on my user page. <a href="/wiki/User:Jkolli" title="User:Jkolli">Jkolli</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jkolli" title="User talk:Jkolli">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Jkolli-2021-02-11T08:27:00.000Z-Untitled" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:27, 11 February 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jkolli-2021-02-11T08:27:00.000Z-Untitled"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jkolli-2021-02-11T08:27:00.000Z-Untitled"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Calligraphically-2021-10-13T05:46:00.000Z-Untitled"></span>Oct 2021 - The article should likely be moved to "15-Minute City", as that appears to be the way that independent sources frequently refer to it. <a href="/wiki/User:Calligraphically" title="User:Calligraphically">Calligraphically</a> <small class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">undated</a> comment added <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Calligraphically-2021-10-13T05:46:00.000Z-Untitled" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:46, 13 October 2021 (UTC)</a></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Calligraphically-2021-10-13T05:46:00.000Z-Untitled"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Calligraphically-2021-10-13T05:46:00.000Z-Untitled"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="3/29_Edits_and_Organization" data-mw-thread-id="h-3/29_Edits_and_Organization-2021-03-29T07:34:00.000Z"><span id="3.2F29_Edits_and_Organization"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-3/29_Edits_and_Organization-2021-03-29T07:34:00.000Z"></span>3/29 Edits and Organization<span data-mw-comment-end="h-3/29_Edits_and_Organization-2021-03-29T07:34:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:15-minute_city&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: 3/29 Edits and Organization"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jkolli-2021-03-29T07:34:00.000Z-3/29_Edits_and_Organization"></span>Hello! I'm glad to see that more people have taken an interest in this article since I first proposed edits. I reorganized the existing text into sections, removed uncited information, and added more information to sections from my sandbox. For my next steps, I plan to add more examples of implementations, specifically from Asia, and expand the implications and critiques section. I welcome any edits! <a href="/wiki/User:Jkolli" title="User:Jkolli">Jkolli</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jkolli" title="User talk:Jkolli">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Jkolli-2021-03-29T07:34:00.000Z-3/29_Edits_and_Organization" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:34, 29 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jkolli-2021-03-29T07:34:00.000Z-3/29_Edits_and_Organization"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jkolli-2021-03-29T07:34:00.000Z-3/29_Edits_and_Organization"></span> </p><p><br/> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Heatherkong-2021-03-30T01:13:00.000Z-3/29_Edits_and_Organization"></span>Great job on this article! I noticed how much you expanded the page with specific examples of models and city implementation studies, which I thought helped a lot in understanding the feasibility and reasoning behind different concepts behind the 15 minute city. Information is presented in a way that gives background and room for the reader to form an opinion. In terms of future edits, it would be great to see more links and images (specifically an image of what a 15 minute city plan may look like could be helpful in visualizing the design and accessibility). Additionally, you can edit the lead to provide more of a roadmap to your later sections. Also, revising your headings for the implementation and critique section to separate the two into their own sections would make your last two sections more clear in terms of the content being presented. Content-wise, an important thing to consider may be to draw connections or to contrast between the different city examples and models. It might be helpful to see a summary table of some of the similar or differing ideas for the models/ implementation plans. <a href="/wiki/User:Heatherkong" title="User:Heatherkong">Heatherkong</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Heatherkong" title="User talk:Heatherkong">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Heatherkong-2021-03-30T01:13:00.000Z-3/29_Edits_and_Organization" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:13, 30 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Heatherkong-2021-03-30T01:13:00.000Z-3/29_Edits_and_Organization"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Heatherkong-2021-03-30T01:13:00.000Z-3/29_Edits_and_Organization"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ebweav-2021-03-30T19:57:00.000Z-3/29_Edits_and_Organization"></span>This article is super great! I agree it would be super cool to include diagrams or other information that could help readers visualize, as well as maybe expanding on the examples section (particularly the Melbourne section, and maybe any other cities you're aware of. I think the lead could also include more info about the origins of the 15-minute city as well. Otherwise, great work! <a href="/wiki/User:Ebweav" title="User:Ebweav">Ebweav</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ebweav" title="User talk:Ebweav">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Ebweav-2021-03-30T19:57:00.000Z-3/29_Edits_and_Organization" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:57, 30 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ebweav-2021-03-30T19:57:00.000Z-3/29_Edits_and_Organization"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ebweav-2021-03-30T19:57:00.000Z-3/29_Edits_and_Organization"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Peer_review" data-mw-thread-id="h-Peer_review-2021-03-30T09:45:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Peer_review-2021-03-30T09:45:00.000Z"></span>Peer review<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Peer_review-2021-03-30T09:45:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:15-minute_city&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Peer review"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MBJAnderson-2021-03-30T09:45:00.000Z-Peer_review"></span>This article is well-organized and really clear. The only things I would add to <a href="/wiki/User:Heatherkong" title="User:Heatherkong">User: Heatherkong</a>'s list are adding an image or two, if possible, and maybe changing the wording of the phrase, "...polycentric city, where density is made pleasant, where proximity is vibrant and where social intensity is real." I am not sure if you define polycentric city anywhere else, but a link might be helpful, and I also thought "proximity and vibrant and social intensity is real" could use some shortening. That's it though. <a href="/wiki/User:MBJAnderson" title="User:MBJAnderson">MBJAnderson</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MBJAnderson" title="User talk:MBJAnderson">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-MBJAnderson-2021-03-30T09:45:00.000Z-Peer_review" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:45, 30 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MBJAnderson-2021-03-30T09:45:00.000Z-Peer_review"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MBJAnderson-2021-03-30T09:45:00.000Z-Peer_review"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Implementation_Examples" data-mw-thread-id="h-Implementation_Examples-2021-10-10T02:19:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Implementation_Examples-2021-10-10T02:19:00.000Z"></span>Implementation Examples<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Implementation_Examples-2021-10-10T02:19:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:15-minute_city&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: Implementation Examples"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Arecaceæ2011-2021-10-10T02:19:00.000Z-Implementation_Examples"></span>Some of the examples cited of implementations do not seem to be explicitly related to the 15 minute city concept, but seem to simply be innovations in urban mobility, some in response to the COVID-19 pandemic. For instance, the Bogotá section is entirely about cycling, and neither of the cited sources mention the "15 minute city" concept. Further, Bogotá had long been developing a cycle network. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Arecace%C3%A62011&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Arecaceæ2011 (page does not exist)">Arecaceæ2011</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Arecace%C3%A62011" title="User talk:Arecaceæ2011">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Arecaceæ2011-2021-10-10T02:19:00.000Z-Implementation_Examples" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:19, 10 October 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Arecaceæ2011-2021-10-10T02:19:00.000Z-Implementation_Examples"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Arecaceæ2011-2021-10-10T02:19:00.000Z-Implementation_Examples"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Arecaceæ2011-2021-10-10T02:24:00.000Z-Arecaceæ2011-2021-10-10T02:19:00.000Z"></span>On closer reading, most of the examples are fine, it's just the Lagos example, which seems to be more about food access than walk-ability (which is cited as merely a side effect), and the Bogotá example, which is about urban mobility, but is not specifically identified as an implementation of the 15-minute city concept and appears too generic to merit inclusion here (considering the countless other cities that expanded cycling routes or closed streets to cars during the COVID-19 pandemic). I suggest those two be removed.<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Arecace%C3%A62011&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Arecaceæ2011 (page does not exist)">Arecaceæ2011</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Arecace%C3%A62011" title="User talk:Arecaceæ2011">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Arecaceæ2011-2021-10-10T02:24:00.000Z-Arecaceæ2011-2021-10-10T02:19:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:24, 10 October 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Arecaceæ2011-2021-10-10T02:24:00.000Z-Arecaceæ2011-2021-10-10T02:19:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Arecaceæ2011-2021-10-10T02:24:00.000Z-Arecaceæ2011-2021-10-10T02:19:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id=""Critiques"_section." data-mw-thread-id="h-"Critiques"_section.-2021-12-29T16:41:00.000Z"><span id=".22Critiques.22_section."></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-"Critiques"_section.-2021-12-29T16:41:00.000Z"></span>"Critiques" section.<span data-mw-comment-end="h-"Critiques"_section.-2021-12-29T16:41:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:15-minute_city&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: "Critiques" section."><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Grendelkhan-2021-12-29T16:41:00.000Z-"Critiques"_section."></span>Since I'm pulling out a big chunk of the page, I thought I'd explain why. "Critics point out that the creation of dense, walkable cores like a 15-minute neighborhood often leads to gentrification and displacement" is not <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/13/2/928/htm">in the source</a>; the closest thing there is "Finally, high accessibility to certain areas and the creation of hyper proximity cores are usually accompanied by rising property values, causing either gentrification phenomena or the confinement of lower income households to periphery. Hence provisions in regard to affordable and rental housing, available to diverse individuals and households, are critical and should be an integral part of [fifteen-minute cities'] policies." The article says that improving cities in general can lead to gentrification unless policies are included to preserve affordability. This is different from "improving cities leads to gentrification and displacement". </p><p>"Further, price increases, like those associated with gentrification, could be harmful to marginalized groups like people with disabilities, forcing move-outs" isn't a reasonable summary of <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-22/the-people-that-the-15-minute-city-leave-behind">"The ‘15-Minute City’ Isn’t Made for Disabled Bodies"</a>, which focuses on the problem that price increases can make the city unaffordable, and improving the city can make it more attractive, which (in the absence of more homes for people to move into) will make it more expensive. This isn't an argument for keeping the city unwalkable and inaccessible, and it shouldn't be presented as one. </p><p>"Similarly, as the concept's origin is largely European, critics have argued that implementing the model could be colonialist and perpetuate harm to marginalized communities" is not a reasonable way to summarize <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-02/the-downsides-of-a-15-minute-city">Where the ‘15-Minute City’ Falls Short</a>, which quotes Jay Pitter as saying "We've actually designed cities to create buffers between us across race and class specifically, and this proposal completely ignores a century of planning interventions that have actually concretized deep social divisions between people." The idea here is that it's harder to make American cities walkable and accessible than it is to make European cities that way; a few bike lanes alone won't cut it. This doesn't mean that walkability and accessibility are "colonialist". </p><p>Lastly, the idea that it's easier to implement a fifteen-minute city in an already-dense city is practically tautological, and doesn't qualify as a "critique". This doesn't leave anything, so I've removed the section entirely. <a href="/wiki/User:Grendelkhan" title="User:Grendelkhan">grendel</a>|<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Grendelkhan" title="User talk:Grendelkhan">khan</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Grendelkhan-2021-12-29T16:41:00.000Z-"Critiques"_section." class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:41, 29 December 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Grendelkhan-2021-12-29T16:41:00.000Z-"Critiques"_section."><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Grendelkhan-2021-12-29T16:41:00.000Z-"Critiques"_section."></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Fancyarchitect-20230219221600-Grendelkhan-2021-12-29T16:41:00.000Z"></span>Hi, proposing an update to the criticism section, which is very descriptive at this point using too much references. Here is a more concise alternative keeping the main point:</dd> <dd>"<i>While many cities have implemented policies along the 15-minute city concept, disagreement remains over whether the model equally benefits residents. Arguments mainly point that pedestrian friendly neighborhood design may lead to gentrification and displacement of lower-income residents due to rising property values, if not accompinied by affordable housing provisions (Pozoukidou & Chatziyiannaki, 2021).</i> "</dd> <dd>For the second part, it could be like this:</dd> <dd><i>"In addition, the 15-minute city concept is more feasible in cities with less urban sprawl, such as those in Europe. However, in Chengdu and Melbourne the concept has been implemented with the latter emphasizing the importance of public transit in expanding the radius of the 15-minute city, rather than walking or cycling."..</i>.</dd> <dd>buti am not sure there is such a clear source in the literature (though the argument is solid) <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Fancyarchitect&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Fancyarchitect (page does not exist)">Fancyarchitect</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fancyarchitect" title="User talk:Fancyarchitect">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Fancyarchitect-20230219221600-Grendelkhan-2021-12-29T16:41:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:16, 19 February 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Fancyarchitect-20230219221600-Grendelkhan-2021-12-29T16:41:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Fancyarchitect-20230219221600-Grendelkhan-2021-12-29T16:41:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Repetitive_additions_and_removals:" data-mw-thread-id="h-Repetitive_additions_and_removals:-20230213142600"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Repetitive_additions_and_removals:-20230213142600"></span>Repetitive additions and removals:<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Repetitive_additions_and_removals:-20230213142600"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:15-minute_city&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: Repetitive additions and removals:"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Fancyarchitect-20230213142600-Repetitive_additions_and_removals:"></span>Revised: I have removed repetitive references to the "Isobenefit Proposal by D'Acci" as they are not relevant to the main topic of the article, which is the "15-minute city" concept. There is still a mention in the "Research Models" section, though I am unsure if it is appropriate there, as well. </p><p>The goal of the "15-minute city" article is to provide information on this widely adopted urban planning approach, not to present a comprehensive list of all proposals that include a 15-minute travel time or similar idea. There have been many such proposals dating back to the early 20th century, including those by Ebenezer Howard, <a href="/wiki/Ebenezer_Howard" title="Ebenezer Howard">Eb. Howard</a>, <a href="/wiki/Constantinos_Apostolou_Doxiadis" title="Constantinos Apostolou Doxiadis">CA. Doxiadis</a>, and <a href="/wiki/Colin_Rowe" title="Colin Rowe">C.Rowe</a> Additionally, 5-minute and 15-minute models have been widely used in thousands of research studies. However, including every single proposal in this article would detract from its focus and clarity. Let's work together to ensure that the content remains informative and relevant. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Fancyarchitect&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Fancyarchitect (page does not exist)">Fancyarchitect</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fancyarchitect" title="User talk:Fancyarchitect">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Fancyarchitect-20230213142600-Repetitive_additions_and_removals:" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:26, 13 February 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Fancyarchitect-20230213142600-Repetitive_additions_and_removals:"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Fancyarchitect-20230213142600-Repetitive_additions_and_removals:"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Seven_citations_in_first_sentence._Seriously?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Seven_citations_in_first_sentence._Seriously?-20230217142800"><span id="Seven_citations_in_first_sentence._Seriously.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Seven_citations_in_first_sentence._Seriously?-20230217142800"></span>Seven citations in first sentence. Seriously?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Seven_citations_in_first_sentence._Seriously?-20230217142800"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:15-minute_city&action=edit&section=7" title="Edit section: Seven citations in first sentence. Seriously?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230217142800-Seven_citations_in_first_sentence._Seriously?"></span>The definition is uncontroversial, it doesn't need multiple citations (xref MOS). Accordingly, I have moved all but one down to a new External links section. If anyone considers any of these especially important, then a new section is needed to reflect the points they make and it can be reclaimed to support it. <a href="/wiki/User:John_Maynard_Friedman" class="mw-redirect" title="User:John Maynard Friedman">𝕁𝕄𝔽</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John_Maynard_Friedman" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:John Maynard Friedman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230217142800-Seven_citations_in_first_sentence._Seriously?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:28, 17 February 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230217142800-Seven_citations_in_first_sentence._Seriously?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230217142800-Seven_citations_in_first_sentence._Seriously?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rodneyr-20230219205100-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230217142800"></span>It's funny that you state it's non-controversial, because I came to the talk page because I disagree with the notion that it's a "residential" concept. 15-minute neighborhoods are necessarily mixed-use...and I expect that the only excluded uses would likely be heavy industry. I'd propose removing the word "residential" from the definition. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Rodneyr&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Rodneyr (page does not exist)">Rodneyr</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rodneyr" title="User talk:Rodneyr">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Rodneyr-20230219205100-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230217142800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:51, 19 February 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rodneyr-20230219205100-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230217142800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rodneyr-20230219205100-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230217142800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230220113000-Rodneyr-20230219205100"></span>It is the definition is uncontroversial. I acknowledge that the principle itself is disputed. If you believe that the word "residential" should be removed, you need to show that a consensus of expert opinion considers it irrelevant. Your opinion (and mine, of course) is of no significance. --<a href="/wiki/User:John_Maynard_Friedman" class="mw-redirect" title="User:John Maynard Friedman">𝕁𝕄𝔽</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John_Maynard_Friedman" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:John Maynard Friedman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230220113000-Rodneyr-20230219205100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:30, 20 February 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230220113000-Rodneyr-20230219205100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230220113000-Rodneyr-20230219205100"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230220113400-Rodneyr-20230219205100"></span>But your analysis makes sense. I haven't checked the citation to see if it actually says so, and don't have time now. Would you do it please? --<a href="/wiki/User:John_Maynard_Friedman" class="mw-redirect" title="User:John Maynard Friedman">𝕁𝕄𝔽</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John_Maynard_Friedman" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:John Maynard Friedman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230220113400-Rodneyr-20230219205100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:34, 20 February 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230220113400-Rodneyr-20230219205100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230220113400-Rodneyr-20230219205100"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Abbreviation" data-mw-thread-id="h-Abbreviation-20230220211000"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Abbreviation-20230220211000"></span>Abbreviation<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Abbreviation-20230220211000"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:15-minute_city&action=edit&section=8" title="Edit section: Abbreviation"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-S_C_Cheese-20230220211000-Abbreviation"></span>"FMC" has been added. I prefer "10MC" as it makes iy easy to compare with eg "20MC". <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:S_C_Cheese&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:S C Cheese (page does not exist)">S C Cheese</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:S_C_Cheese" title="User talk:S C Cheese">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-S_C_Cheese-20230220211000-Abbreviation" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:10, 20 February 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-S_C_Cheese-20230220211000-Abbreviation"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-S_C_Cheese-20230220211000-Abbreviation"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sangdeboeuf-20230220212300-S_C_Cheese-20230220211000"></span>OK. Do you have a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">reliable source</a> for that abbreviation? —<a href="/wiki/User:Sangdeboeuf" title="User:Sangdeboeuf">Sangdeboeuf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sangdeboeuf" title="User talk:Sangdeboeuf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Sangdeboeuf-20230220212300-S_C_Cheese-20230220211000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:23, 20 February 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sangdeboeuf-20230220212300-S_C_Cheese-20230220211000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sangdeboeuf-20230220212300-S_C_Cheese-20230220211000"></span> <dl><dd><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://dutpartnership.eu/the-15-minute-city-transition-pathway-15mc/"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-S_C_Cheese-20230221082500-Sangdeboeuf-20230220212300"></span>https://dutpartnership.eu/the-15-minute-city-transition-pathway-15mc/</a></dd> <dd>They style it as "15mC" <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:S_C_Cheese&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:S C Cheese (page does not exist)">S C Cheese</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:S_C_Cheese" title="User talk:S C Cheese">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-S_C_Cheese-20230221082500-Sangdeboeuf-20230220212300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:25, 21 February 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-S_C_Cheese-20230221082500-Sangdeboeuf-20230220212300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-S_C_Cheese-20230221082500-Sangdeboeuf-20230220212300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-S_C_Cheese-20230313101900-S_C_Cheese-20230221082500"></span>Changed in article, as above. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:S_C_Cheese&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:S C Cheese (page does not exist)">S C Cheese</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:S_C_Cheese" title="User talk:S C Cheese">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-S_C_Cheese-20230313101900-S_C_Cheese-20230221082500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:19, 13 March 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-S_C_Cheese-20230313101900-S_C_Cheese-20230221082500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-S_C_Cheese-20230313101900-S_C_Cheese-20230221082500"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Restructuring_Parts" data-mw-thread-id="h-Restructuring_Parts-20230221000700"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Restructuring_Parts-20230221000700"></span>Restructuring Parts<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Restructuring_Parts-20230221000700"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:15-minute_city&action=edit&section=9" title="Edit section: Restructuring Parts"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Fancyarchitect-20230221000700-Restructuring_Parts"></span>Hi all, the article starts to get pretty good. Here are some thoughts: </p><p>1.Texts should be less descriptive when citing authors. The field is new and many viewpoints are added every week. Instead of [author] suggests and proposes that [.......] , it is better to style text as [argument or opinion] (citation) </p><p>2.My suggestion is to restructure a little bit "limitations" and "criticism". The two terms are often overlapping but there is distinction between them: Limitations refer to situations where a theory cannot work properly. Criticism is more subjective, and is about situations that it would work, but in a harmfull (bad) way. That probably includes conspiracies views, as well. So, the sections could be re-arranged as: </p><p><b>Limitations</b>: </p><p>While the theory has many potential benefits, including reducing car dependence and promoting walkability in urban areas, it also has limitations. </p><p>One limitation is the difficulty or impracticality of implementing the 15-minute city concept in established urban areas, where land use patterns and infrastructure are already in place. Additionally, the concept may not be feasible in areas with low population density, more <a href="/wiki/Urban_sprawl" title="Urban sprawl">urban sprawl</a> or in low-income communities where <a href="/wiki/Transport" title="Transport">transportation options</a> are limited.<sup id="cite_ref-:6_1-0" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-:6-1"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>1<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> However, it should be noted that cities like <a href="/wiki/Chengdu" title="Chengdu">Chengdu</a> and <a href="/wiki/Melbourne" title="Melbourne">Melbourne</a> have utilized the concept in order to curb urban sprawl and stress the importance of <a href="/wiki/Public_transport" title="Public transport">public transit</a> in expanding the radius of the 15-minute city.<sup id="cite_ref-:4_2-0" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-:4-2"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>2<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> </p><p>Furthermore, when the concept is applied as a literal spatial analysis research tool, it then refers to the use of an <a href="/wiki/Isochrone_map" title="Isochrone map">isochrone</a> to express the radius of an area considered local.<sup id="cite_ref-:13_3-0" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-:13-3"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>3<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> Isochrones have a long history of utilization in transportation planning and are constructed primarily using two variables: time and speed. However, the reliance on population-wide conventions, such as gait speed, to estimate the buffer zones of accessible areas may not accurately reflect the mobility capabilities of specific population groups, like the elderly. This may result in potential inaccuracies and fallacies in research models.<sup id="cite_ref-:13_3-1" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-:13-3"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>3<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> In addition, depending too much on physically demanding mobility, could also exclude the physically disabled.<sup id="cite_ref-4" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-4"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>4<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup>. </p><p><b>Criticism</b>: While many cities have implemented policies along the 15-minute city concept, disagreement remains over whether the model will equally benefit residents of all social strata. Arguments mainly point that pedestrian friendly neighborhood design may lead to <a href="/wiki/Gentrification" title="Gentrification">gentrification</a> and displacement of lower-income residents or <a href="/wiki/Social_exclusion" title="Social exclusion">marginalized groups</a> due to rising <a href="/wiki/Property_value" class="mw-redirect" title="Property value">property values</a>, especially if not accompinied by <a href="/wiki/Affordable_housing" title="Affordable housing">affordable housing</a> provisions<sup id="cite_ref-:3_5-0" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-:3-5"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>5<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup>. </p><p><a href="/wiki/Conspiracy_theories" class="mw-redirect" title="Conspiracy theories">Conspiracy theories</a> about the 15-minute concept theories have also flourished, including claims that the model will fine residents for leaving their home districts.<sup id="cite_ref-6" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-6"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>6<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup><sup id="cite_ref-7" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-7"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>7<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup><sup id="cite_ref-8" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-8"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>8<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> British Conservative Party MP <a href="/wiki/Nick_Fletcher_(politician)" title="Nick Fletcher (politician)">Nick Fletcher</a> called 15-minute cities an "international socialist concept" during a debate in the UK Parliament in February 2023.<sup id="cite_ref-9" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-9"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>9<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Fancyarchitect&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Fancyarchitect (page does not exist)">Fancyarchitect</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fancyarchitect" title="User talk:Fancyarchitect">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Fancyarchitect-20230221000700-Restructuring_Parts" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:07, 21 February 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Fancyarchitect-20230221000700-Restructuring_Parts"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Fancyarchitect-20230221000700-Restructuring_Parts"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Grandtubetrains-20230221115600-Fancyarchitect-20230221000700"></span>I wholly agree of adding a "conspiracy theory" section to the article as it has grown more attention to the tinfoil hat crowd. The topic doesn't warrant its own page so having it here would be better suited. <a href="/wiki/User:Grandtubetrains" title="User:Grandtubetrains">Grandtubetrains</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Grandtubetrains" title="User talk:Grandtubetrains">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Grandtubetrains-20230221115600-Fancyarchitect-20230221000700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:56, 21 February 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Grandtubetrains-20230221115600-Fancyarchitect-20230221000700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Grandtubetrains-20230221115600-Fancyarchitect-20230221000700"></span></dd></dl> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1232521257">.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk{margin:auto 0;border:1px dashed var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:4px;padding-left:1em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk-title{font-weight:bold}</style><div class="reflist-talk"> <p class="reflist-talk-title">References</p> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1239543626">.mw-parser-output .reflist{margin-bottom:0.5em;list-style-type:decimal}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .reflist{font-size:90%}}.mw-parser-output .reflist .references{font-size:100%;margin-bottom:0;list-style-type:inherit}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-2{column-width:30em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-3{column-width:25em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns{margin-top:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns ol{margin-top:0}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns li{page-break-inside:avoid;break-inside:avoid-column}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-alpha{list-style-type:upper-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-roman{list-style-type:upper-roman}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-alpha{list-style-type:lower-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-greek{list-style-type:lower-greek}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-roman{list-style-type:lower-roman}</style><div class="reflist"> <div class="mw-references-wrap"><ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-:6-1"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-:6_1-0">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1238218222">.mw-parser-output cite.citation{font-style:inherit;word-wrap:break-word}.mw-parser-output .citation q{quotes:"\"""\"""'""'"}.mw-parser-output .citation:target{background-color:rgba(0,127,255,0.133)}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-free.id-lock-free a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Lock-green.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited.id-lock-limited a,.mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration.id-lock-registration a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Lock-gray-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription.id-lock-subscription a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Lock-red-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Wikisource-logo.svg")right 0.1em center/12px no-repeat}body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-free a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background-size:contain;padding:0 1em 0 0}.mw-parser-output .cs1-code{color:inherit;background:inherit;border:none;padding:inherit}.mw-parser-output .cs1-hidden-error{display:none;color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-visible-error{color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{display:none;color:#085;margin-left:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-left{padding-left:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-right{padding-right:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .citation .mw-selflink{font-weight:inherit}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .cs1-format{font-size:95%}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}</style><cite class="citation news cs1"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-11-12/paris-s-15-minute-city-could-be-coming-to-an-urban-area-near-you">"The 15-Minute City—No Cars Required—Is Urban Planning's New Utopia"</a>. <i>Bloomberg.com</i>. 2020-11-12<span class="reference-accessdate">. Retrieved <span class="nowrap">2021-03-12</span></span>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=Bloomberg.com&rft.atitle=The+15-Minute+City%E2%80%94No+Cars+Required%E2%80%94Is+Urban+Planning%27s+New+Utopia&rft.date=2020-11-12&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomberg.com%2Fnews%2Ffeatures%2F2020-11-12%2Fparis-s-15-minute-city-could-be-coming-to-an-urban-area-near-you&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3A15-minute+city" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-:4-2"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-:4_2-0">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite class="citation news cs1"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-15/mayors-tout-the-15-minute-city-as-covid-recovery">"How the '15-Minute City' Could Help Post-Pandemic Recovery"</a>. <i>Bloomberg.com</i>. 2020-07-15<span class="reference-accessdate">. Retrieved <span class="nowrap">2021-04-14</span></span>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=Bloomberg.com&rft.atitle=How+the+%2715-Minute+City%27+Could+Help+Post-Pandemic+Recovery&rft.date=2020-07-15&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomberg.com%2Fnews%2Farticles%2F2020-07-15%2Fmayors-tout-the-15-minute-city-as-covid-recovery&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3A15-minute+city" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-:13-3"><span class="mw-cite-backlink">^ <a href="#cite_ref-:13_3-0"><sup><i><b>a</b></i></sup></a> <a href="#cite_ref-:13_3-1"><sup><i><b>b</b></i></sup></a></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFBoukouras2022" class="citation journal cs1 cs1-prop-long-vol">Boukouras, Efstathios (2022). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.urbanisticainformazioni.it/IMG/pdf/ui306si_sessione_01.pdf">"The question of proximity. Demographic ageing places the 15-minute-city theory under stress"</a> <span class="cs1-format">(PDF)</span>. <i>Urbanistica Informazioni</i>. sessione_01 (306 s.i): 21–24.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=Urbanistica+Informazioni&rft.atitle=The+question+of+proximity.+Demographic+ageing+places+the+15-minute-city+theory+under+stress&rft.volume=sessione_01&rft.issue=306+s.i&rft.pages=21-24&rft.date=2022&rft.aulast=Boukouras&rft.aufirst=Efstathios&rft_id=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.urbanisticainformazioni.it%2FIMG%2Fpdf%2Fui306si_sessione_01.pdf&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3A15-minute+city" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-4"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-4">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite class="citation news cs1"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-22/the-people-that-the-15-minute-city-leave-behind">"The '15-Minute City' Isn't Made for Disabled Bodies"</a>. <i>Bloomberg.com</i>. 2021-04-22<span class="reference-accessdate">. Retrieved <span class="nowrap">2021-04-29</span></span>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=Bloomberg.com&rft.atitle=The+%2715-Minute+City%27+Isn%27t+Made+for+Disabled+Bodies&rft.date=2021-04-22&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomberg.com%2Fnews%2Farticles%2F2021-04-22%2Fthe-people-that-the-15-minute-city-leave-behind&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3A15-minute+city" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-:3-5"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-:3_5-0">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFPozoukidouChatziyiannaki2021" class="citation journal cs1">Pozoukidou, Georgia; Chatziyiannaki, Zoi (2021-01-18). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://doi.org/10.3390%2Fsu13020928">"15-Minute City: Decomposing the New Urban Planning Eutopia"</a>. <i>Sustainability</i>. <b>13</b> (2): 928. <a href="/wiki/Doi_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="Doi (identifier)">doi</a>:<span class="id-lock-free" title="Freely accessible"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://doi.org/10.3390%2Fsu13020928">10.3390/su13020928</a></span>. <a href="/wiki/ISSN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISSN (identifier)">ISSN</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://search.worldcat.org/issn/2071-1050">2071-1050</a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=Sustainability&rft.atitle=15-Minute+City%3A+Decomposing+the+New+Urban+Planning+Eutopia&rft.volume=13&rft.issue=2&rft.pages=928&rft.date=2021-01-18&rft_id=info%3Adoi%2F10.3390%2Fsu13020928&rft.issn=2071-1050&rft.aulast=Pozoukidou&rft.aufirst=Georgia&rft.au=Chatziyiannaki%2C+Zoi&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.3390%252Fsu13020928&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3A15-minute+city" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-6"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-6">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFLloyd_Parry2023" class="citation web cs1">Lloyd Parry, Roland (15 February 2023). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://phys.org/news/2023-02-conspiracy-theories-minute-cities-flourish.html">"Conspiracy theories on '15-minute cities' flourish"</a> – via <a href="/wiki/Phys.org" title="Phys.org">phys.org</a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=unknown&rft.btitle=Conspiracy+theories+on+%2715-minute+cities%27+flourish&rft.date=2023-02-15&rft.aulast=Lloyd+Parry&rft.aufirst=Roland&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fphys.org%2Fnews%2F2023-02-conspiracy-theories-minute-cities-flourish.html&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3A15-minute+city" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-7"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-7">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFElledge2023" class="citation web cs1">Elledge, John (February 2023). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.newstatesman.com/quickfire/2023/02/fifteen-minute-cities-will-be-back-conspiracy-theories-house-commons">"How have 15-minute cities become a conspiracy theory?"</a>. <i><a href="/wiki/Newstatesman.com" class="mw-redirect" title="Newstatesman.com">newstatesman.com</a></i>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=unknown&rft.jtitle=newstatesman.com&rft.atitle=How+have+15-minute+cities+become+a+conspiracy+theory%3F&rft.date=2023-02&rft.aulast=Elledge&rft.aufirst=John&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newstatesman.com%2Fquickfire%2F2023%2F02%2Ffifteen-minute-cities-will-be-back-conspiracy-theories-house-commons&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3A15-minute+city" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-8"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-8">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite class="citation web cs1"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230215-conspiracy-theories-on-15-minute-cities-flourish">"Conspiracy theories on '15-minute cities' flourish"</a>. <i>France 24</i>. 2023-02-15<span class="reference-accessdate">. Retrieved <span class="nowrap">2023-02-15</span></span>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=unknown&rft.jtitle=France+24&rft.atitle=Conspiracy+theories+on+%2715-minute+cities%27+flourish&rft.date=2023-02-15&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.france24.com%2Fen%2Flive-news%2F20230215-conspiracy-theories-on-15-minute-cities-flourish&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3A15-minute+city" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-9"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-9">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFWainwright2023" class="citation web cs1">Wainwright, Oliver (16 February 2023). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/feb/16/15-minute-city-planning-theory-conspiracists">"In praise of the '15-minute city' – the mundane planning theory terrifying conspiracists"</a>. <i><a href="/wiki/The_Guardian" title="The Guardian">The Guardian</a></i>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=unknown&rft.jtitle=The+Guardian&rft.atitle=In+praise+of+the+%2715-minute+city%27+%E2%80%93+the+mundane+planning+theory+terrifying+conspiracists&rft.date=2023-02-16&rft.aulast=Wainwright&rft.aufirst=Oliver&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fcommentisfree%2F2023%2Ffeb%2F16%2F15-minute-city-planning-theory-conspiracists&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3A15-minute+city" class="Z3988"></span> (<a href="/wiki/OpEd" class="mw-redirect" title="OpEd">OpEd</a>)</span> </li> </ol></div></div> </div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="20_April_2023" data-mw-thread-id="h-20_April_2023-20230420162400"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-20_April_2023-20230420162400"></span>20 April 2023<span data-mw-comment-end="h-20_April_2023-20230420162400"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:15-minute_city&action=edit&section=10" title="Edit section: 20 April 2023"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <dl><dd><span class="anchor" id="Emptiness_of_the_subject_/_Misses_the_point"></span><small><a href="/wiki/Template:Thread_retitled" title="Template:Thread retitled"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2A01:E0A:909:95B0:C12F:53BB:C47B:6236-20230420162400-20_April_2023"></span>Thread retitled</a> from "Emptiness of the subject / Misses the point".</small></dd></dl> <p>The way the subject is presented seems to come from people who have never seen a X-minute city in their live. There are such cities literally everywhere across many countries, and it's been like that for thousands of years. I think the concept should redefined by contrasting *some* new big cities with *most* old cities. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2A01:E0A:909:95B0:C12F:53BB:C47B:6236" title="Special:Contributions/2A01:E0A:909:95B0:C12F:53BB:C47B:6236">2A01:E0A:909:95B0:C12F:53BB:C47B:6236</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2A01:E0A:909:95B0:C12F:53BB:C47B:6236&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:2A01:E0A:909:95B0:C12F:53BB:C47B:6236 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-2A01:E0A:909:95B0:C12F:53BB:C47B:6236-20230420162400-20_April_2023" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:24, 20 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2A01:E0A:909:95B0:C12F:53BB:C47B:6236-20230420162400-20_April_2023"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2A01:E0A:909:95B0:C12F:53BB:C47B:6236-20230420162400-20_April_2023"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sangdeboeuf-20230421112900-2A01:E0A:909:95B0:C12F:53BB:C47B:6236-20230420162400"></span>Wikipedia articles are based on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SOURCE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SOURCE">published, reliable sources</a>, not users' personal experiences. If there are such sources contrasting new and old "15-minute cities", feel free to present them here. —<a href="/wiki/User:Sangdeboeuf" title="User:Sangdeboeuf">Sangdeboeuf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sangdeboeuf" title="User talk:Sangdeboeuf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Sangdeboeuf-20230421112900-2A01:E0A:909:95B0:C12F:53BB:C47B:6236-20230420162400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:29, 21 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sangdeboeuf-20230421112900-2A01:E0A:909:95B0:C12F:53BB:C47B:6236-20230420162400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sangdeboeuf-20230421112900-2A01:E0A:909:95B0:C12F:53BB:C47B:6236-20230420162400"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Recent_tagging" data-mw-thread-id="h-Recent_tagging-20230604021800"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Recent_tagging-20230604021800"></span>Recent tagging<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Recent_tagging-20230604021800"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:15-minute_city&action=edit&section=11" title="Edit section: Recent tagging"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Acroterion-20230604021800-Recent_tagging"></span>An IP editor has been tagging the conspiracy theory section with NPOV tags, seemingly objecting to the existence of the section, or maybe the description "conspiracy theory." I've protected the article to ensure that discussion occurs here rather than via tagging and edit summaries claiming that the NPOV policy demands that we do what the editor says without further question. <b><span style="font-family: Arial;"><a href="/wiki/User:Acroterion" title="User:Acroterion"><span style="color: black;">Acroterion</span></a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Acroterion" title="User talk:Acroterion"><span style="color: gray;">(talk)</span></a></small></span></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Acroterion-20230604021800-Recent_tagging" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:18, 4 June 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Acroterion-20230604021800-Recent_tagging"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Acroterion-20230604021800-Recent_tagging"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604024000-Acroterion-20230604021800"></span>Defining alternate viewpoints or criticisms as "conspiracy theories" because they contradict your personal viewpoints is inherently in violation of the Wikipedia Neutral Point of View standard. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, "Wikipedia aims to describe disputes, but not engage in them.", "This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus." <small>(<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks" title="Wikipedia:No personal attacks">Personal attack removed</a>)</small> The article could easily be revised to be truly impartial as follows:</dd> <dd><s>Conspiracy theories</s></dd> <dd>In 2023, <s>unfounded conspiracy theories</s> criticism about the 15-minute concept began to flourish, which described the model as an instrument of government oppression. These claims are often part of or linked to other <s>conspiracy</s> theories that assert that Western governments seek to oppress their populations, such as QAnon, anti-vaccinationism or <s>misinformation related to</s> criticism of 5G technology. Proponents of the 15-minute concept, including Carlos Moreno, have received death threats.</dd> <dd>Some <s>conspiracy theorists</s> critics conflate the 15-minute concept with the British low-traffic neighborhood approach, which includes license plate scanners in some implementations. This has led <s>conspiracy theorists</s> those critics to assert that the 15-minute model would fine residents for leaving their home districts, or that it would confine people in "open-air prisons". In a 2023 protest by some 2,000 demonstrators in Oxford, signs described 15-minute cities as "ghettos" and an instrument of "tyrannical control" by the World Economic Forum.</dd> <dd><s>Canadian media personality</s> Jordan Peterson has described 15-minute cities as a "perversion", linking them to the "Great Reset" <s>conspiracy theory</s>. British Conservative Party MP Nick Fletcher called 15-minute cities an "international socialist concept" during a February 2023 debate in the UK Parliament. QAnon supporters have claimed the February 2023 derailment of a train carrying hazardous chemicals in East Palestine, Ohio was part of a deliberate plot to force rural residents into 15-minute cities in order to restrict their personal freedom. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796" title="Special:Contributions/2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796">2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796" title="User talk:2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604024000-Acroterion-20230604021800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:40, 4 June 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604024000-Acroterion-20230604021800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604024000-Acroterion-20230604021800"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604025500-Acroterion-20230604021800"></span>BTW I didn't demand that you, "do what the editor says without further question." I validly pointed out the violation of Wikipedia policy. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796" title="Special:Contributions/2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796">2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796" title="User talk:2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604025500-Acroterion-20230604021800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:55, 4 June 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604025500-Acroterion-20230604021800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604025500-Acroterion-20230604021800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Acroterion-20230604030100-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604025500"></span>Thank you for coming here and providing a detailed discussion, rather than just tag-bombing the article and picking out pieces of the NPOV policy in edit summaries. Discussion is required when you tag an article, just tagging is regarded as disruptive, and I semi-protected the article to ensure that you came here for an actual discussion.</dd> <dd>NPOV requires that Wikipedia describe concepts in the same manner that a consensus of reliable sources does. Are you asserting that the references do not, or are you just objecting that Wikipedia is reporting discussions of a conspiracy theory as a conspiracy theory? Do you dispute the references? Do you object to the section? It appears to me that you wish to describe the conspiracy theories as something else. What do you suggest, and is that supported by referencing? <b><span style="font-family: Arial;"><a href="/wiki/User:Acroterion" title="User:Acroterion"><span style="color: black;">Acroterion</span></a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Acroterion" title="User talk:Acroterion"><span style="color: gray;">(talk)</span></a></small></span></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Acroterion-20230604030100-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604025500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:01, 4 June 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Acroterion-20230604030100-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604025500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Acroterion-20230604030100-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604025500"></span> <dl><dd><small><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604031800-Acroterion-20230604030100"></span>(<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks" title="Wikipedia:No personal attacks">Personal attack removed</a>)</small> The NPOV says:</dd> <dd>"Prefer nonjudgmental language. A neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject (or what reliable sources say about the subject), although this must sometimes be balanced against clarity. <b>Present opinions and conflicting findings in a disinterested tone. Do not editorialize. When editorial bias towards one particular point of view can be detected the article needs to be fixed. The only bias that should be evident is the bias attributed to the source.</b>"</dd> <dd>This is the exact opposite of what you are doing. If you want to say that a source calls these criticisms "conspiracy theories", the text should read something along the lines of, "The New York Times [48] calls these claims, which they link to other ideas that assert that Western governments seek to oppress their populations, such as QAnon, anti-vaccinationism or "misinformation related to 5G technology", conspiracy theories". <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796" title="Special:Contributions/2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796">2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796" title="User talk:2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604031800-Acroterion-20230604030100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:18, 4 June 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604031800-Acroterion-20230604030100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604031800-Acroterion-20230604030100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Acroterion-20230604042600-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604031800"></span>A less aggressive tone in your comments concerning your perception of the motivations of other editors would be appreciated.</dd> <dd>In general, NPOV requires that Wikipedia describe something in accordance with the consensus of reliable sources, and doesn’t demand that it be watered down to imply that there is validity to, for example, QAnon. If something is hogwash, then that’s what Wikipedia calls it. However, attribution of views in text, as you appear to be requesting, is generally encouraged in preference to Wikivoice, as long as it doesn’t veer into both sidesism when there is significant imbalance between the consensus of mainstream sources and fringe views. Since you’re fond of quoting policy, a reading of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:FRINGE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:FRINGE">WP:FRINGE</a> might be valuable, since it forms a component of NPOV. In particular, since you’ve brought it up, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ITA" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ITA">WP:ITA</a> discusses how and when to use in-text attribution. <b><span style="font-family: Arial;"><a href="/wiki/User:Acroterion" title="User:Acroterion"><span style="color: black;">Acroterion</span></a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Acroterion" title="User talk:Acroterion"><span style="color: gray;">(talk)</span></a></small></span></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Acroterion-20230604042600-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604031800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:26, 4 June 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Acroterion-20230604042600-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604031800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Acroterion-20230604042600-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604031800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604054800-Acroterion-20230604042600"></span>My tone is mine and not yours to choose. <small>(<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks" title="Wikipedia:No personal attacks">Personal attack removed</a>)</small></dd> <dd>But tone is the issue here. I have asked that the tone of the article be changed to reflect that of a proper unbiased Wikipedia article. I have not asked that any information be changed. I have not asked that any sources be changed. I have only asked that terms like "conspiracy theorist" which are commonly used to devalue opposing viewpoints and which are inherently biased either be omitted or be referred to as the opinion or conclusion of a valid source. You have refused because??? Wikipedia should never say, "X is a conspiracy theory". Wikipedia can say, "The New York Times says this is a conspiracy theory. Jordan Peterson says it isn't."</dd> <dd>Could you please point me to the exact paragraph where is states, "NPOV requires that Wikipedia describe something in accordance with the consensus of reliable sources", because I have quoted to you the exact paragraph where is states that it doesn't and that it actually states the opposite. Also, what is your consensus of reliable sources? You have ONE, the New York Times, for most of the section and one more at the end talking about the train derailment. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796" title="Special:Contributions/2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796">2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796" title="User talk:2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604054800-Acroterion-20230604042600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:48, 4 June 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604054800-Acroterion-20230604042600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604054800-Acroterion-20230604042600"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604062300-Acroterion-20230604042600"></span>And honestly, if you or someone else wrote a really comprehensive article with compelling sources from many different parts of the political spectrum showing why these viewpoints are legitimately conspiracy theories, fringe theories (you have Jordan Petersen and British Conservative Party MP Nick Fletcher promoting them so they aren't fringe theories), etc... with a legitimate back and forth and a true discussion of the facts that didn't begin and end with "we call hogwash on hogwash" and contain only one source, that would be incredibly useful <small>(<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks" title="Wikipedia:No personal attacks">Personal attack removed</a>)</small>. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796" title="Special:Contributions/2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796">2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796" title="User talk:2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604062300-Acroterion-20230604042600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:23, 4 June 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604062300-Acroterion-20230604042600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604062300-Acroterion-20230604042600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sangdeboeuf-20230604093300-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604062300"></span>NPOV doesn't mean using <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1248585704">@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{font-family:Georgia,"DejaVu Serif",serif;color:#008560;quotes:none}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-italic{font-family:inherit;font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-marks{quotes:"\"""\""}</style><q class="inline-quote-talk">sources from many different parts of the political spectrum</q>. That's <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:FALSEBALANCE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:FALSEBALANCE">WP:FALSEBALANCE</a>. We go by reliable sources <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy</q> per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SOURCES" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SOURCES">WP:SOURCES</a>. If reliable sources say Jordan Peterson and Nick Fletcher are spouting fringe conspiracy theories, then we label their positions as such per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:FRINGE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:FRINGE">WP:FRINGE</a>. —<a href="/wiki/User:Sangdeboeuf" title="User:Sangdeboeuf">Sangdeboeuf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sangdeboeuf" title="User talk:Sangdeboeuf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Sangdeboeuf-20230604093300-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604062300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:33, 4 June 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sangdeboeuf-20230604093300-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604062300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sangdeboeuf-20230604093300-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604062300"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sangdeboeuf-20230604131700-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604062300"></span>In particular, reframing <a href="/wiki/Misinformation_related_to_5G_technology" class="mw-redirect" title="Misinformation related to 5G technology">misinformation related to 5G technology</a> as mere "criticism" and omitting the "conspiracy" from both <a href="/wiki/QAnon" title="QAnon">QAnon</a> and <a href="/wiki/Great_Reset_conspiracy_theories" class="mw-redirect" title="Great Reset conspiracy theories">Great Reset conspiracy theories</a> is highly misleading. What's next, do we refer to <a href="/wiki/Moon_landing_conspiracy_theories" title="Moon landing conspiracy theories">Moon landing conspiracy theories</a> as "criticism of NASA"? —<a href="/wiki/User:Sangdeboeuf" title="User:Sangdeboeuf">Sangdeboeuf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sangdeboeuf" title="User talk:Sangdeboeuf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Sangdeboeuf-20230604131700-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604062300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:17, 4 June 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sangdeboeuf-20230604131700-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604062300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sangdeboeuf-20230604131700-2605:E000:5FC0:40:E1A0:F8B3:C0B4:A796-20230604062300"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="D'Acci_and_the_T*-minute_city" data-mw-thread-id="h-D'Acci_and_the_T*-minute_city-20230609100900"><span id="D.27Acci_and_the_T.2A-minute_city"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-D'Acci_and_the_T*-minute_city-20230609100900"></span>D'Acci and the T*-minute city<span data-mw-comment-end="h-D'Acci_and_the_T*-minute_city-20230609100900"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:15-minute_city&action=edit&section=12" title="Edit section: D'Acci and the T*-minute city"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230609100900-D'Acci_and_the_T*-minute_city"></span>An IP editor has added a drive-by "clarify" tag but failed to open a discussion topic to explain what they think needs clarifying. In an edit summary, they finally said <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">No one knows what the hell "isobenefit" or "morphogenetic" mean</q>. I have to agree: these are echo-chamber jargon words. </p> <ul><li>Wiktionary has no entry for "Isobenefit" (though we might guess at its meaning from the <a href="/wiki/Iso-" class="mw-redirect mw-disambig" title="Iso-">iso-</a> prefix but that wouldn't advance us much.</li> <li>Wiktionary defines "morphogenesis" as "(biol) The differentiation of tissues and subsequent growth of structures in an organism." which again doesn't advance us much.</li></ul> <p>So, although I have a kneejerk dislike of drive-by tagging and tend to revert on sight if not accompanied by a talk page item, in this case I think that the IP was being charitable. The section is content-free <a href="/wiki/Prolix" class="mw-redirect" title="Prolix">prolix</a> and does no credit to D'Acci, to the case for 15-minute cities or indeed to Wikipedia in general. So unless someone familiar with D'Acci's work who can rewrite it very soon, it really needs to be concealed. <a href="/wiki/User:John_Maynard_Friedman" class="mw-redirect" title="User:John Maynard Friedman">𝕁𝕄𝔽</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John_Maynard_Friedman" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:John Maynard Friedman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230609100900-D'Acci_and_the_T*-minute_city" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:09, 9 June 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230609100900-D'Acci_and_the_T*-minute_city"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230609100900-D'Acci_and_the_T*-minute_city"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Willondon-20230609130600-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230609100900"></span>I'm not sure what you mean by concealed. I was considering deleting the section altogether. It really seems like a hopeless mess. It made me wonder what <a href="/wiki/Sokal_affair" title="Sokal affair">Alan Sokal</a> is up to these days. <small><sub><i>signed</i>, </sub></small><a href="/wiki/User:Willondon" title="User:Willondon">Willondon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Willondon" title="User talk:Willondon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Willondon-20230609130600-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230609100900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:06, 9 June 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Willondon-20230609130600-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230609100900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Willondon-20230609130600-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230609100900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230610090400-Willondon-20230609130600"></span>Taken out of live space, for example cut and pasted here for open-heart surgery. I assume good faith by whoever wrote it but it reads like a version one LLM wrote it on a bad day. --<a href="/wiki/User:John_Maynard_Friedman" class="mw-redirect" title="User:John Maynard Friedman">𝕁𝕄𝔽</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John_Maynard_Friedman" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:John Maynard Friedman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230610090400-Willondon-20230609130600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:04, 10 June 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230610090400-Willondon-20230609130600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230610090400-Willondon-20230609130600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Willondon-20230610124500-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230610090400"></span>I've gone and deleted it, but I copy the content here, for the record. <small><sub><i>signed</i>, </sub></small><a href="/wiki/User:Willondon" title="User:Willondon">Willondon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Willondon" title="User talk:Willondon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Willondon-20230610124500-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230610090400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:45, 10 June 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Willondon-20230610124500-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230610090400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Willondon-20230610124500-John_Maynard_Friedman-20230610090400"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1256386598">.mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#F0F2F5;color:inherit}.mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#CCFFCC;color:inherit}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#14181F;color:inherit}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#003500;color:inherit}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#14181F;color:inherit}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#003500;color:inherit}}</style> <div style="margin-left:0"> <table class="mw-collapsible mw-archivedtalk mw-collapsed" style="color:inherit; background: transparent; text-align: left; border: 1px solid Silver; margin: 0.2em auto auto; width:100%; clear: both; padding: 1px;"> <tbody><tr> <th class="cot-header-other" style="; font-size:87%; padding:0.2em 0.3em; text-align:left;"><div style="font-size:115%;">Removed content which may be salvagable with some work</div> </th></tr> <tr> <td style="color:inherit; border: solid 1px Silver; padding: 0.6em; background: var(--background-color-base, #fff);"> <p>D'Acci and the T*-minute city </p><p>In 2013,<sup id="cite_ref-D'Acci_2013_10-0" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-D'Acci_2013-10"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>1<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup><sup id="cite_ref-D'Acci_2014_11-0" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-D'Acci_2014-11"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>2<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> Luca D'Acci introduced the concept of isobenefit urbanism, a spontaneous-guided planning approach based on a morphogenetic code inducing a T*-minute city (T*= a reasonable time to reach destination by walking) where one can reach within 1km/1mile: natural land, shops, amenities, services and places of work. It is based on a code for the simulations of isobenefit urban morphogenesis. It is a code to simulate urban growth scenario by modifying as one wishes the values of the parameters. The latter are related to densities, surface, population size, random factors and built probabilities. This urban growth model results in infinite outputs all satisfying the isobenefit urbanism objective function.<sup id="cite_ref-D'Acci_2019_12-0" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-D'Acci_2019-12"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>3<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup><sup id="cite_ref-D'Acci_2021_13-0" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-D'Acci_2021-13"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>4<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup><sup id="cite_ref-Gabrieli_2022_14-0" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-Gabrieli_2022-14"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>5<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> </p> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1232521257"><div class="reflist-talk"> <p class="reflist-talk-title">References</p> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239543626"><div class="reflist"> <div class="mw-references-wrap"><ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-D'Acci_2013-10"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-D'Acci_2013_10-0">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFD’Acci2013" class="citation journal cs1">D’Acci, Luca (2013). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.ihs.nl/sites/corporate/files/simulating_future_societies_in_isobenefit_cities.pdf">"Simulating future societies in Isobenefit Cities: Social isobenefit scenarios"</a> <span class="cs1-format">(PDF)</span>. <i>Futures</i>. <b>54</b>: 3–18. <a href="/wiki/Doi_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="Doi (identifier)">doi</a>:<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://doi.org/10.1016%2Fj.futures.2013.09.004">10.1016/j.futures.2013.09.004</a>. <a href="/wiki/ISSN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISSN (identifier)">ISSN</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://search.worldcat.org/issn/0016-3287">0016-3287</a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=Futures&rft.atitle=Simulating+future+societies+in+Isobenefit+Cities%3A+Social+isobenefit+scenarios&rft.volume=54&rft.pages=3-18&rft.date=2013&rft_id=info%3Adoi%2F10.1016%2Fj.futures.2013.09.004&rft.issn=0016-3287&rft.aulast=D%E2%80%99Acci&rft.aufirst=Luca&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ihs.nl%2Fsites%2Fcorporate%2Ffiles%2Fsimulating_future_societies_in_isobenefit_cities.pdf&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3A15-minute+city" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-D'Acci_2014-11"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-D'Acci_2014_11-0">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFD'Acci2014" class="citation arxiv cs1">D'Acci, Luca (12 August 2014). "Urban DNA for cities evolutions. Cities as physical expression of dynamic equilibriums between competitive and cooperative forces". <a href="/wiki/ArXiv_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ArXiv (identifier)">arXiv</a>:<span class="id-lock-free" title="Freely accessible"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://arxiv.org/abs/1408.2874v3">1408.2874v3</a></span> [<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://arxiv.org/archive/cs.CY">cs.CY</a>].</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=preprint&rft.jtitle=arXiv&rft.atitle=Urban+DNA+for+cities+evolutions.+Cities+as+physical+expression+of+dynamic+equilibriums+between+competitive+and+cooperative+forces&rft.date=2014-08-12&rft_id=info%3Aarxiv%2F1408.2874v3&rft.aulast=D%27Acci&rft.aufirst=Luca&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3A15-minute+city" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-D'Acci_2019-12"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-D'Acci_2019_12-0">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFD'Acci2019" class="citation journal cs1">D'Acci, Luca (2019). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/219689799.pdf">"A new type of cities for liveable futures. Isobenefit Urbanism morphogenesis"</a> <span class="cs1-format">(PDF)</span>. <i>Journal of Environmental Management</i>. <b>246</b>: 128–140. <a href="/wiki/Doi_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="Doi (identifier)">doi</a>:<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://doi.org/10.1016%2Fj.jenvman.2019.05.129">10.1016/j.jenvman.2019.05.129</a>. <a href="/wiki/ISSN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISSN (identifier)">ISSN</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://search.worldcat.org/issn/0301-4797">0301-4797</a>. <a href="/wiki/PMID_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="PMID (identifier)">PMID</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31176977">31176977</a>. <a href="/wiki/S2CID_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="S2CID (identifier)">S2CID</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://api.semanticscholar.org/CorpusID:182950321">182950321</a> – via <a href="/wiki/CORE_(research_service)" title="CORE (research service)">CORE</a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=Journal+of+Environmental+Management&rft.atitle=A+new+type+of+cities+for+liveable+futures.+Isobenefit+Urbanism+morphogenesis&rft.volume=246&rft.pages=128-140&rft.date=2019&rft.issn=0301-4797&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fapi.semanticscholar.org%2FCorpusID%3A182950321%23id-name%3DS2CID&rft_id=info%3Apmid%2F31176977&rft_id=info%3Adoi%2F10.1016%2Fj.jenvman.2019.05.129&rft.aulast=D%27Acci&rft.aufirst=Luca&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fcore.ac.uk%2Fdownload%2Fpdf%2F219689799.pdf&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3A15-minute+city" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-D'Acci_2021-13"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-D'Acci_2021_13-0">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFD'AcciMarshallVan_OortRogers2021" class="citation conference cs1">D'Acci, L. S.; Marshall, S.; Van Oort, F.; Rogers, C. D. F.; Gabrieli, T.; Voto, M. (2021). <i>Planning, environmental, economic perspectives of urban isobenefit morphogenesis</i>. presented at Ecocity World Summit 2021.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=conference&rft.btitle=Planning%2C+environmental%2C+economic+perspectives+of+urban+isobenefit+morphogenesis.&rft.date=2021&rft.aulast=D%27Acci&rft.aufirst=L.+S.&rft.au=Marshall%2C+S.&rft.au=Van+Oort%2C+F.&rft.au=Rogers%2C+C.+D.+F.&rft.au=Gabrieli%2C+T.&rft.au=Voto%2C+M.&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3A15-minute+city" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-Gabrieli_2022-14"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-Gabrieli_2022_14-0">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFGabrieli2022" class="citation web cs1">Gabrieli, Tommaso (15 March 2022). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.ucl.ac.uk/bartlett/planning/research-projects/2022/mar/future-urban-growth-lab">"Future Urban Growth Lab"</a>. University College London; Bartlett School of Planning.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=unknown&rft.btitle=Future+Urban+Growth+Lab&rft.pub=University+College+London%3B+Bartlett+School+of+Planning&rft.date=2022-03-15&rft.aulast=Gabrieli&rft.aufirst=Tommaso&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucl.ac.uk%2Fbartlett%2Fplanning%2Fresearch-projects%2F2022%2Fmar%2Ffuture-urban-growth-lab&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3A15-minute+city" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> </ol></div></div> </div> </td></tr></tbody></table></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id=""15-minute_walk_or_bike_ride"" data-mw-thread-id="h-"15-minute_walk_or_bike_ride"-20230707004900"><span id=".2215-minute_walk_or_bike_ride.22"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-"15-minute_walk_or_bike_ride"-20230707004900"></span>"15-minute walk or bike ride"<span data-mw-comment-end="h-"15-minute_walk_or_bike_ride"-20230707004900"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:15-minute_city&action=edit&section=13" title="Edit section: "15-minute walk or bike ride""><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wisnoskij-20230707004900-"15-minute_walk_or_bike_ride""></span>This phrase does not make much logical sense. "Walk" and "bike" in this context are being equated as similar, but they are not. A 15 minute bike ride (5km) is equivalent to a 1 hour walk (google maps). This phrase equates to saying that "amenities and services are at most 1.2 or 5 km away". </p><p>It is either one or the other. One of these numbers is redundant, either services and amenities are within a 5km range or a 1.2km range. It sounds like it is just a catch phrase or marketing slogan, but it just confuses the article when we are using it like it is a factual fully formed informative statement. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Wisnoskij&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Wisnoskij (page does not exist)">Wisnoskij</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wisnoskij" title="User talk:Wisnoskij">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Wisnoskij-20230707004900-"15-minute_walk_or_bike_ride"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:49, 7 July 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wisnoskij-20230707004900-"15-minute_walk_or_bike_ride""><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wisnoskij-20230707004900-"15-minute_walk_or_bike_ride""></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Removal_of_Glaeser_critique" data-mw-thread-id="h-Removal_of_Glaeser_critique-20231126230200"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Removal_of_Glaeser_critique-20231126230200"></span><span class="anchor" id="Removal_of_Glaser_critique"></span> Removal of Glaeser critique<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Removal_of_Glaeser_critique-20231126230200"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:15-minute_city&action=edit&section=14" title="Edit section: Removal of Glaeser critique"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Avatar317-20231126230200-Removal_of_Glaeser_critique"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Acroterion" title="User:Acroterion">Acroterion</a>:</span> and <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:Sangdeboeuf" title="User:Sangdeboeuf">Sangdeboeuf</a>:</span> - What is your goal here? to suppress ANY academic criticism of this "15 minute city" concept simply because you don't like it and your goal is to sanitize the article of ANY criticism? </p><p><a href="/wiki/Edward_Glaeser" title="Edward Glaeser">Edward Glaeser</a> is well known for his research into the economics of cities. We currently have NO criticism in this article, and a whole section at the beginning sourced only to people who have written articles about this concept, some not even notable enough to have their own Wikipedia articles. </p><p>The criticism isn't just "Glaeser doesn't like it" but he articulates the problems he sees with this concept and offers what he sees as better alternatives. But you just <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:IDONTLIKEIT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:IDONTLIKEIT">WP:IDONTLIKEIT</a>? so you want to keep it out of Wikipedia? ---<b><a href="/wiki/User:Avatar317" title="User:Avatar317"><span style="background:#8A2BE2; color:white; padding:2px;">Avatar317</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Avatar317" title="User talk:Avatar317"><sup><span style="background:#7B68EE; color:white; padding:2px;">(talk)</span></sup></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Avatar317-20231126230200-Removal_of_Glaeser_critique" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:02, 26 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Avatar317-20231126230200-Removal_of_Glaeser_critique"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Avatar317-20231126230200-Removal_of_Glaeser_critique"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Acroterion-20231126230700-Avatar317-20231126230200"></span>Please stop with the assumptions concerning the motivations of other editors. You've been around long enough to understand <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DUE">WP:DUE</a> - this appears to be heavily weighted toward a single critic. Are there no others, or other dissenting voices in academia (as opposed to the conspiracy rumor mill)? It appears to me that devoting a paragraph to one person's views is disproportionate. I would expect to see a diversity of critical academic views. <b><span style="font-family: Arial;"><a href="/wiki/User:Acroterion" title="User:Acroterion"><span style="color: black;">Acroterion</span></a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Acroterion" title="User talk:Acroterion"><span style="color: gray;">(talk)</span></a></small></span></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Acroterion-20231126230700-Avatar317-20231126230200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:07, 26 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Acroterion-20231126230700-Avatar317-20231126230200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Acroterion-20231126230700-Avatar317-20231126230200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Avatar317-20231126234500-Acroterion-20231126230700"></span>I have not yet found more than one academic criticism (and no other editors have yet either). OF COURSE it is weighted toward a single critic, the source for that paragraph was written by Glaeser himself, as a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SPS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SPS">WP:SPS</a> from an expert in the field. If you can find any more sources I'd be glad to summarize them, but for now this is all we seem to have. ---<b><a href="/wiki/User:Avatar317" title="User:Avatar317"><span style="background:#8A2BE2; color:white; padding:2px;">Avatar317</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Avatar317" title="User talk:Avatar317"><sup><span style="background:#7B68EE; color:white; padding:2px;">(talk)</span></sup></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Avatar317-20231126234500-Acroterion-20231126230700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:45, 26 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Avatar317-20231126234500-Acroterion-20231126230700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Avatar317-20231126234500-Acroterion-20231126230700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Acroterion-20231126235300-Avatar317-20231126234500"></span>I'll look around. I have no objection to Glaeser <i>per se</i>, but if he's the only serious dissent it needs to be kept to a very concise summary of his views. <b><span style="font-family: Arial;"><a href="/wiki/User:Acroterion" title="User:Acroterion"><span style="color: black;">Acroterion</span></a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Acroterion" title="User talk:Acroterion"><span style="color: gray;">(talk)</span></a></small></span></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Acroterion-20231126235300-Avatar317-20231126234500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:53, 26 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Acroterion-20231126235300-Avatar317-20231126234500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Acroterion-20231126235300-Avatar317-20231126234500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Avatar317-20231127000100-Acroterion-20231126235300"></span>I forgot to point out that he is one of a very small number of well recognized economists who have studied the effects of zoning policies on housing costs and economic growth in cities, and therefore his opinion/assessment would be one of the more significant voices in the field. Other views would definitely be good to have as well. ---<b><a href="/wiki/User:Avatar317" title="User:Avatar317"><span style="background:#8A2BE2; color:white; padding:2px;">Avatar317</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Avatar317" title="User talk:Avatar317"><sup><span style="background:#7B68EE; color:white; padding:2px;">(talk)</span></sup></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Avatar317-20231127000100-Acroterion-20231126235300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:01, 27 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Avatar317-20231127000100-Acroterion-20231126235300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Avatar317-20231127000100-Acroterion-20231126235300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sangdeboeuf-20231127075400-Avatar317-20231127000100"></span>A blog post is a poor source for <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">academic criticism</q>. Are there no peer-reviewed articles describing the dispute from a disinterested perspective, as required by <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BALANCE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BALANCE">WP:BALANCE</a>? —<a href="/wiki/User:Sangdeboeuf" title="User:Sangdeboeuf">Sangdeboeuf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sangdeboeuf" title="User talk:Sangdeboeuf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Sangdeboeuf-20231127075400-Avatar317-20231127000100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:54, 27 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sangdeboeuf-20231127075400-Avatar317-20231127000100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sangdeboeuf-20231127075400-Avatar317-20231127000100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Avatar317-20231128002600-Sangdeboeuf-20231127075400"></span>What dispute are you talking about? The 15-min city is a CONCEPT or PROPOSAL or SUGGESTION on how cities should construct/reshape their physical environment, with the people originating and proposing this as the OBVIOUS proponents who put forward their ideas on why it would improve cities from their current state. Glaeser has written his criticism of certain aspects of these ideas from an ECONOMIC perspective, which is what his expertise is in. He didn't talk about or criticize the social impact; he's not a sociologist.</dd> <dd>If you look at the sources currently in this article, they all talk about the 15-min city as: <i><b>Introducing</b> the "15-Minute City"</i> (2021) - how many peer-reviewed articles do you think exist about a CONCEPT/PROPOSAL that has first gotten widespread discussion/publicity in ~2020? ---<b><a href="/wiki/User:Avatar317" title="User:Avatar317"><span style="background:#8A2BE2; color:white; padding:2px;">Avatar317</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Avatar317" title="User talk:Avatar317"><sup><span style="background:#7B68EE; color:white; padding:2px;">(talk)</span></sup></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Avatar317-20231128002600-Sangdeboeuf-20231127075400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:26, 28 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Avatar317-20231128002600-Sangdeboeuf-20231127075400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Avatar317-20231128002600-Sangdeboeuf-20231127075400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sangdeboeuf-20231130215900-Avatar317-20231128002600"></span>That different people support and oppose the concept itself implies a dispute, whether their respective support and opposition are rooted in economics, sociology, or any other discipline.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>If the most prominent economic critique of the concept is to be found in a <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/covid19/2021/05/28/the-15-minute-city-is-a-dead-end-cities-must-be-places-of-opportunity-for-everyone/">blog post</a>, rather than an academic journal or monograph, that suggests the critique itself is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:UNDUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:UNDUE">WP:UNDUE</a>. —<a href="/wiki/User:Sangdeboeuf" title="User:Sangdeboeuf">Sangdeboeuf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sangdeboeuf" title="User talk:Sangdeboeuf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Sangdeboeuf-20231130215900-Avatar317-20231128002600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:59, 30 November 2023 (UTC)</a> <span style="font-size:85%;">edited 22:23, 1 December 2023 (UTC)</span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sangdeboeuf-20231130215900-Avatar317-20231128002600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sangdeboeuf-20231130215900-Avatar317-20231128002600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Avatar317-20231130223200-Sangdeboeuf-20231130215900"></span>So you just repeated what you said and ignored my point about this being a <b>new</b> concept.</dd> <dd>I'll repeat my question: How many peer-reviewed articles (or academic journals or monographs) do you think exist about a concept/proposal that has first gotten widespread discussion/publicity in ~2020? The conspiracy theories got this topic far more publicity than it had before. (though all false information)</dd> <dd>Your arguments seem to me that you care more about yourself being right than about making a better encyclopedia. Have you never worked on articles about new subjects? ---<b><a href="/wiki/User:Avatar317" title="User:Avatar317"><span style="background:#8A2BE2; color:white; padding:2px;">Avatar317</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Avatar317" title="User talk:Avatar317"><sup><span style="background:#7B68EE; color:white; padding:2px;">(talk)</span></sup></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Avatar317-20231130223200-Sangdeboeuf-20231130215900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:32, 30 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Avatar317-20231130223200-Sangdeboeuf-20231130215900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Avatar317-20231130223200-Sangdeboeuf-20231130215900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sangdeboeuf-20231201151500-Avatar317-20231130223200"></span>The fact that it's a new concept does not mean we can ignore <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WEIGHT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:WEIGHT">WP:WEIGHT</a> or <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BALANCE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BALANCE">WP:BALANCE</a>, which are policy. It seems that you are trying to shoehorn criticism into the article for political reasons rather than to build an encyclopedia. Maybe you think Glaeser's criticisms are valid; nevertheless, Wikipedia is not the place to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RGW" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RGW">"set the record straight"</a> on this or any other issue. —<a href="/wiki/User:Sangdeboeuf" title="User:Sangdeboeuf">Sangdeboeuf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sangdeboeuf" title="User talk:Sangdeboeuf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Sangdeboeuf-20231201151500-Avatar317-20231130223200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:15, 1 December 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sangdeboeuf-20231201151500-Avatar317-20231130223200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sangdeboeuf-20231201151500-Avatar317-20231130223200"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sangdeboeuf-20231201221600-Avatar317-20231130223200"></span>We already cite several articles presenting various critiques of the concept under <span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-added, #006400);"><a href="/wiki/15-minute_city#Limitations" title="15-minute city">§ Limitations</a></span>, including one peer-reviewed journal article (<a href="/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/1187861621#CITEREFPozoukidouChatziyiannaki2021" title="Special:PermanentLink/1187861621">Pozoukidou & Chatziyiannaki 2021</a>). The idea that I or anyone else is trying to <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">sanitize the article of ANY criticism</q> is plainly nonsensical. —<a href="/wiki/User:Sangdeboeuf" title="User:Sangdeboeuf">Sangdeboeuf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sangdeboeuf" title="User talk:Sangdeboeuf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Sangdeboeuf-20231201221600-Avatar317-20231130223200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:16, 1 December 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sangdeboeuf-20231201221600-Avatar317-20231130223200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sangdeboeuf-20231201221600-Avatar317-20231130223200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Avatar317-20231201224300-Sangdeboeuf-20231201221600"></span>Thank you for your reply. I had only quickly reviewed the article when I added the "Obstacles to implementation" paragraph, and then later added the Glaeser paragraph. Now that I have read the Limitations section (thank you for pointing that out), I feel that the Glaeser critique could easily be trimmed to one to two sentences and put there. <a href="/wiki/Edward_Glaeser" title="Edward Glaeser">Edward Glaeser</a> is a notable economist known for his studies of urban economics. (see <a href="/wiki/Edward_Glaeser#Contribution_to_urban_economics_and_political_economy" title="Edward Glaeser">this section</a>). Seeing as neither Georgia Pozoukidou and Zoi Chatziyiannaki are notable enough scholars to have Wikipedia articles, it doesn't seem at all UNDUE to have a summary of his criticisms there. I have no issue with not having a separate section as the Reception section I created; I didn't notice the critiques in the Limitations section when I added the Glaeser content, or I would have probably put it there. ---<b><a href="/wiki/User:Avatar317" title="User:Avatar317"><span style="background:#8A2BE2; color:white; padding:2px;">Avatar317</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Avatar317" title="User talk:Avatar317"><sup><span style="background:#7B68EE; color:white; padding:2px;">(talk)</span></sup></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Avatar317-20231201224300-Sangdeboeuf-20231201221600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:43, 1 December 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Avatar317-20231201224300-Sangdeboeuf-20231201221600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Avatar317-20231201224300-Sangdeboeuf-20231201221600"></span> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:5P3" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:5P3"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sangdeboeuf-20231201231500-Avatar317-20231201224300"></span>Anyone can create a Wikipedia article</a>, so that by itself is not an indicator of notability. The WP:WEIGHT issue is down to the fact that unlike Pozoukidou & Chatziyiannaki, the Glaeser source is a blog rather than an edited academic work, as I've already mentioned. Nor is notability itself a guarantee of reliability; plenty of notable academics have <a href="/wiki/Nobel_disease" title="Nobel disease">pushed fringe theories</a>. —<a href="/wiki/User:Sangdeboeuf" title="User:Sangdeboeuf">Sangdeboeuf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sangdeboeuf" title="User talk:Sangdeboeuf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Sangdeboeuf-20231201231500-Avatar317-20231201224300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:15, 1 December 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sangdeboeuf-20231201231500-Avatar317-20231201224300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sangdeboeuf-20231201231500-Avatar317-20231201224300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Avatar317-20231201233500-Sangdeboeuf-20231201231500"></span>You are correct on both of those points; but <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SPS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SPS">WP:SPS</a> says: "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications."</dd> <dd>And, this is not just some personal blog, this is his blog at the <a href="/wiki/London_School_of_Economics" title="London School of Economics">London School of Economics</a>, hardly an irreputable institution. ---<b><a href="/wiki/User:Avatar317" title="User:Avatar317"><span style="background:#8A2BE2; color:white; padding:2px;">Avatar317</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Avatar317" title="User talk:Avatar317"><sup><span style="background:#7B68EE; color:white; padding:2px;">(talk)</span></sup></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Avatar317-20231201233500-Sangdeboeuf-20231201231500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:35, 1 December 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Avatar317-20231201233500-Sangdeboeuf-20231201231500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Avatar317-20231201233500-Sangdeboeuf-20231201231500"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Avatar317-20231202004200-Sangdeboeuf-20231201231500"></span>The bottom of his blog post states: "This post represents the views of the author and not those of the COVID-19 blog, nor LSE. It is based on Edward Glaeser’s contribution to Localising Transport: Towards the 15-minute city or the one-hour metropolis?, an event hosted by LSE Cities, the Alfred Herrhausen Gesellschaft and the LSE School of Public Policy, and supported by SAP SE and knowledge partner Teralytics."</dd> <dd>"Localising Transport: Towards the 15-minute city or the one-hour metropolis?" is a link to a YouTube video; I haven't watched it yet. ---<b><a href="/wiki/User:Avatar317" title="User:Avatar317"><span style="background:#8A2BE2; color:white; padding:2px;">Avatar317</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Avatar317" title="User talk:Avatar317"><sup><span style="background:#7B68EE; color:white; padding:2px;">(talk)</span></sup></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Avatar317-20231202004200-Sangdeboeuf-20231201231500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:42, 2 December 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Avatar317-20231202004200-Sangdeboeuf-20231201231500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Avatar317-20231202004200-Sangdeboeuf-20231201231500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sangdeboeuf-20231203205800-Avatar317-20231202004200"></span>I'm not sure whether we can say Glaeser has actually published work in the relevant field; <a href="/wiki/Urban_planning" title="Urban planning">urban planning</a> and <a href="/wiki/Urban_economics" title="Urban economics">urban economics</a> seem like different specialties. In any case, the blog entry is still a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PSTS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PSTS">primary source for the author's opinions</a>, and should therefore be used with caution if at all. —<a href="/wiki/User:Sangdeboeuf" title="User:Sangdeboeuf">Sangdeboeuf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sangdeboeuf" title="User talk:Sangdeboeuf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Sangdeboeuf-20231203205800-Avatar317-20231202004200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:58, 3 December 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sangdeboeuf-20231203205800-Avatar317-20231202004200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sangdeboeuf-20231203205800-Avatar317-20231202004200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Avatar317-20231203213200-Sangdeboeuf-20231203205800"></span>Different specialties, yes, but highly interrelated. Glaeser has done studies on zoning's effect on housing prices, as well as other reserach. Zoning is urban planning and housing costs are one of its effects, which then are urban economics.</dd> <dd>I agree about the caution when using primary sources; if you read the way I wrote the addition, I was very careful about attributing this as his opinion(s), rather than fact. I wrote: Glaeser said, he said, and he says for every sentence. (which can be reduced from the three sentences I crafted.) ---<b><a href="/wiki/User:Avatar317" title="User:Avatar317"><span style="background:#8A2BE2; color:white; padding:2px;">Avatar317</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Avatar317" title="User talk:Avatar317"><sup><span style="background:#7B68EE; color:white; padding:2px;">(talk)</span></sup></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:15-minute_city#c-Avatar317-20231203213200-Sangdeboeuf-20231203205800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:32, 3 December 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Avatar317-20231203213200-Sangdeboeuf-20231203205800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Avatar317-20231203213200-Sangdeboeuf-20231203205800"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?useformat=desktop&type=1x1&usesul3=0" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:15-minute_city&oldid=1215388288">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:15-minute_city&oldid=1215388288</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-normal-catlinks" class="mw-normal-catlinks"><a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">Categories</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:C-Class_Architecture_articles" title="Category:C-Class Architecture articles">C-Class Architecture articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Mid-importance_Architecture_articles" title="Category:Mid-importance Architecture articles">Mid-importance Architecture articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:C-Class_Urban_studies_and_planning_articles" title="Category:C-Class Urban studies and planning articles">C-Class Urban studies and planning articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:High-importance_Urban_studies_and_planning_articles" title="Category:High-importance Urban studies and planning articles">High-importance Urban studies and planning articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:C-Class_WikiProject_Cities_articles" title="Category:C-Class WikiProject Cities articles">C-Class WikiProject Cities articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:All_WikiProject_Cities_pages" title="Category:All WikiProject Cities pages">All WikiProject Cities pages</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:C-Class_sociology_articles" title="Category:C-Class sociology articles">C-Class sociology articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Unknown-importance_sociology_articles" title="Category:Unknown-importance sociology articles">Unknown-importance sociology articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:C-Class_Civil_engineering_articles" title="Category:C-Class Civil engineering articles">C-Class Civil engineering articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Mid-importance_Civil_engineering_articles" title="Category:Mid-importance Civil engineering articles">Mid-importance Civil engineering articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_Civil_engineering_articles" title="Category:WikiProject Civil engineering articles">WikiProject Civil engineering articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:C-Class_Environment_articles" title="Category:C-Class Environment articles">C-Class Environment articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:High-importance_Environment_articles" title="Category:High-importance Environment articles">High-importance Environment articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Sustainability_task_force_articles" title="Category:Sustainability task force articles">Sustainability task force articles</a></li></ul></div></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 24 March 2024, at 21:15<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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