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margin-left:auto; margin-right:auto;"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Why_create_an_account%3F" title="Wikipedia:Why create an account?"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239334494"><span class="tmp-color" style="color:white"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r920966791"><span class="smallcaps"><b><i>W i k <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239334494"><span class="tmp-color" style="color:#66ff66">I P</span> e d i A</i><span class="nowrap"> </span><span class="nowrap"> </span> R O C K S <i>!</i></b></span></span></a></div></td><td class="mbox-imageright"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="two hands cupped together extended toward camera holding Wikipedia globe" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/10_sharing_book_cover_background.jpg/105px-10_sharing_book_cover_background.jpg" decoding="async" width="105" height="91" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/10_sharing_book_cover_background.jpg/158px-10_sharing_book_cover_background.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/10_sharing_book_cover_background.jpg/210px-10_sharing_book_cover_background.jpg 2x" data-file-width="3173" data-file-height="2754"/></span></span></td></tr></tbody></table><div style="-moz-transform:rotate(+1deg);-webkit-transform:rotate(+1deg); transform:rotate(+1deg);position:relative;margin:3em 0 3em 0;"><div class="center" style="width:auto; margin-left:auto; margin-right:auto;"><span class="nowrap"> </span><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Why_create_an_account%3F" title="Wikipedia:Why create an account?"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239334494"><span class="tmp-color" style="color:darkgreen"><u><b> 'BE a member of the Wikipedia family<i>!'</i></b></u></span></a></div></div></div> <div style="-moz-transform:rotate(1deg);-webkit-transform:rotate(1deg); transform:rotate(1deg);position:relative;margin:3em 0 3em 0;"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-content" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="sketch of two right hands in a handshake" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Handshake2.svg/70px-Handshake2.svg.png" decoding="async" width="70" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Handshake2.svg/105px-Handshake2.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Handshake2.svg/140px-Handshake2.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="791" data-file-height="457"/></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text">Gentle reminder... this is my talk page, where you and I may get to know each other better. Thank you for coming here, and thanks beyond words for your interest in and your contributions to this encyclopedia project<i>!</i> Offline and other online interests sometimes keep me very busy, and that's when I'm slow to respond to echo noties, my talk page and emails. Do me a favor, please forgive me, and again, thank you for being here<i>!</i> <i><b><small><span style="color:darkblue; font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</span></small></b></i></td><td class="mbox-imageright"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="yin and yang taichi symbol drawn on Wikipedia globe" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4a/Wikipedia-logo-Martial-Arts-nobg.png/70px-Wikipedia-logo-Martial-Arts-nobg.png" decoding="async" width="70" height="67" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4a/Wikipedia-logo-Martial-Arts-nobg.png/105px-Wikipedia-logo-Martial-Arts-nobg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4a/Wikipedia-logo-Martial-Arts-nobg.png/140px-Wikipedia-logo-Martial-Arts-nobg.png 2x" data-file-width="1058" data-file-height="1010"/></span></span></td></tr></tbody></table></div> <div style="text-align: center;"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239334494"><span class="tmp-color" style="color:darkgreen">'<b><i>Wikipedia</i> is a community effort of <a href="/wiki/User:Paine_Ellsworth/Staggering" title="User:Paine Ellsworth/Staggering"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239334494"><span class="tmp-color" style="color:darkgreen"><u><i>staggering</i> proportions</u></span></a><i>!'</i></b></span></div> <div style="-moz-transform:rotate(-2deg);-webkit-transform:rotate(-2deg); transform:rotate(-2deg);position:relative;margin:3em 0 3em 0;"> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1256386598">.mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#F0F2F5;color:inherit}.mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#CCFFCC;color:inherit}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#14181F;color:inherit}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#003500;color:inherit}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#14181F;color:inherit}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#003500;color:inherit}}</style> <div style="margin-left:0"> <table class="mw-collapsible mw-archivedtalk mw-collapsed" style="color:inherit; background: transparent; text-align: left; border: 1px solid Silver; margin: 0.2em auto auto; width:60%; clear: both; padding: 1px;"> <tbody><tr> <th class="cot-header-other" style="background:Moccasin; font-size:87%; padding:0.2em 0.3em; text-align:center; color: maroon;"><div style="font-size:115%;margin:0 4em">The Closer: <span typeof="mw:File"><span><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ab/Not_an_administrator.png/25px-Not_an_administrator.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ab/Not_an_administrator.png/38px-Not_an_administrator.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ab/Not_an_administrator.png/50px-Not_an_administrator.png 2x" data-file-width="216" data-file-height="216"/></span></span> <u><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_process#Non-administrators_closing_discussions" title="Wikipedia:Deletion process">non-admin reveal</a></u></div> </th></tr> <tr> <td style="color:inherit; border: solid 1px Silver; padding: 0.6em; background: var(--background-color-base, #fff);"> <figure class="mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><span><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Mop_with_crown.svg/75px-Mop_with_crown.svg.png" decoding="async" width="75" height="72" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Mop_with_crown.svg/113px-Mop_with_crown.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Mop_with_crown.svg/150px-Mop_with_crown.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="340" data-file-height="325"/></span><figcaption></figcaption></figure> <dl><dt>Disclosure</dt> <dd>I am not an administrator on Wikipedia. I very much respect admins and have been helped by them many, many times over the years. I also respect the community vettings at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RfA" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RfA">RfA</a> that often show the ultimate community respect and trust of an editor.</dd></dl> <pre>I shall likely remain a non-admin doing the best I can to enjoy discussions with other editors. I sometimes participate, sometimes help with disagreements and sometimes close discussions when needed. I am no stranger to closing contentious discussions about controversial subjects. I sometimes close the easy talks, too, because if it's in the backlog, then it's fair game<i>!</i><br/> Remember that WP is not a democracy, so discussions are not just a vote. The key factors in all good discussion closures are the <i><b>arguments written by concerned editors, policy-based rationales</b></i>, which count most toward an acceptable decision and closure. </pre> <dl><dd>Anyway, if you have come to ask about one of my <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RfC" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RfC">RfC</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RM" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RM">RM</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:MRV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:MRV">MRV</a> or other discussion closures, you are very welcome here<i>!</i> I am usually inclined to reopen a discussion if the outcome was "no consensus" and <b><i>when I am</i> <span style="font-size:120%">specifically</span> <i>and</i> <span style="font-size:120%">intentionally</span> <i>asked to do so!</i></b> (<a href="https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mon_si%C3%A8ge_est_fait" class="extiw" title="wikt:mon siège est fait">Not so much if I found a consensus</a> – that doesn't mean I cannot be persuaded with a good, sound argument.) Please be very clear about your intentions and do not beat around the bush. That just means please don't expect me to read your mind; I have enough trouble reading my own mind sometimes. Thank you beyond words for your deeply respected concerns<i>!</i> – <i><b><a href="/wiki/User:Paine_Ellsworth" title="User:Paine Ellsworth"><span style="font-size:100%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</span></a></b></i> </dd></dl> </td></tr></tbody></table></div></div> <table style="float:right;"> <tbody><tr> <td><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"> <table id="archivebox" role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice mbox-small" style="text-align: center; padding: 1em;"> <tbody><tr> <td style="padding:0.6em 0 0.25em;"> <div style=""><b>Editing WP helps me to continue learning, so one vital, very important role for <i>Wikipedia</i> and some other websites on the Internet is...</b></div> </td></tr><tr> <td class="plainlinks"> </td> </tr> </tbody></table><div style="clear:both;" class=""></div> <div style="text-align: center;"><b><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239334494"><span class="tmp-color" style="color:darkgreen">'to help us keep our minds sharp</span><i>!'</i></b></div> </td></tr></tbody></table><div style="clear:both;" class=""></div> <table style="float:right;"> <tbody><tr> <td><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"> <table id="archivebox" role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice mbox-small mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="text-align: center; padding: 1em;"> <tbody><tr> <td style="padding:0.6em 0 0.25em;"> <div style="width:100%; overflow:hidden;"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Ark2_icon.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="three-dimensional cube-shaped box with y-shaped, partly open zipper on left-facing forward side" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Ark2_icon.svg/65px-Ark2_icon.svg.png" decoding="async" width="65" height="65" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Ark2_icon.svg/98px-Ark2_icon.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Ark2_icon.svg/130px-Ark2_icon.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128"/></a></span><br/><b><a href="/wiki/Think_outside_the_box" class="mw-redirect" title="Think outside the box"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239334494"><span class="tmp-color" style="color:darkgreen"><u>'Think outside it <i>!'</i></u></span></a><br/><br/><span style="color: Maroon;">* my archives *</span></b></div> </td></tr><tr> <td class="plainlinks"> </td></tr><tr><td class="plainlinks" style="padding:0px 10px; text-align:left;"> <div class="center" style="width:auto; margin-left:auto; margin-right:auto;"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_1" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 1">1</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_2" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 2">2</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_3" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 3">3</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_4" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 4">4</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_5" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 5">5</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_6" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 6">6</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_7" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 7">7</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_8" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 8">8</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_9" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 9">9</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_10" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 10">10</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_11" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 11">11</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_12" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 12">12</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_13" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 13">13</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_14" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 14">14</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_15" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 15">15</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_16" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 16">16</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_17" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 17">17</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_18" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 18">18</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_19" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 19">19</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_20" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 20">20</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_21" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 21">21</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_22" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 22">22</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_23" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 23">23</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_24" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 24">24</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_25" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 25">25</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_26" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 26">26</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_27" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 27">27</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_28&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 28 (page does not exist)">28</a><br/> <p><i><b>The Signpost</b></i><br/> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Archives" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Archives">/years</a><br/> <b>Visual Editor</b><br/> </p> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_VE1" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive VE1">1</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Archive_VE2" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive VE2">2</a></div> </td> </tr><tr><td style="padding-bottom:11px"><div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style=""><form name="searchbox" class="searchbox mw-inputbox-form" action="/wiki/Special:Search"><div class="cdx-text-input"><input class="mw-inputbox-input mw-searchInput searchboxInput cdx-text-input__input" name="search" placeholder="" size="22" dir="ltr"/></div><input type="hidden" value="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/" name="prefix"/><br/><input type="submit" name="fulltext" value="Search: * my archives *" class="cdx-button"/><input type="hidden" value="Search" name="fulltext"/></form></div> </td></tr> </tbody></table><div style="clear:both;" class=""></div> <div class="center" style="width:auto; margin-left:auto; margin-right:auto;"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth/Philosophy" title="User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Philosophy"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239334494"><span class="tmp-color" style="color:darkgreen"><span style="font-size:85%;"><u>'<b>PHILOSOPHIE<i>!'</i></b></u></span></span></a></div> </td></tr></tbody></table> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Recently_registered?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Recently_registered?"><span id="Recently_registered.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Recently_registered?"></span>Recently registered?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Recently_registered?"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Recently registered?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-left" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/Template:Wikipedia_editor_navigation" title="Template:Wikipedia editor navigation"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Vudv.gif" decoding="async" width="117" height="60" class="mw-file-element" data-file-width="117" data-file-height="60"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure><figure class="mw-halign-right" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/Template:Wikipedia_editor_navigation" title="Template:Wikipedia editor navigation"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Recursion6.gif/60px-Recursion6.gif" decoding="async" width="60" height="60" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Recursion6.gif/90px-Recursion6.gif 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Recursion6.gif/120px-Recursion6.gif 2x" data-file-width="426" data-file-height="426"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure> <p><span class="nowrap"> </span><span style="font-size:120%"><i><b><a href="/wiki/Help:Introduction" title="Help:Introduction">Learn quickly</a> how editors journey thru <a href="/wiki/Template:Wikipedia_editor_navigation" title="Template:Wikipedia editor navigation">this awe-inspiring reference work!</a> (and the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia">project</a> that builds it!)</b></i></span> </p> <hr/> <hr/> <div style="clear:both;" class=""></div> <p><br/> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256386598"> </p> <div style="margin-left:0"> <table class="mw-collapsible mw-archivedtalk mw-collapsed" style="color:inherit; background: transparent; text-align: left; border: 1px solid Silver; margin: 0.2em auto auto; width:100%; clear: both; padding: 1px;"> <tbody><tr> <th class="cot-header-other" style="background:#e8ddff; font-size:87%; padding:0.2em 0.3em; text-align:left; color:#202122"><div style="font-size:115%;">Older discussions and notifications... → <small>click the section title in the Table of Contents (<link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r920966791"><span class="smallcaps">ToC</span>) above, or click [show] to see all the discussions</small> →</div> </th></tr> <tr> <td style="color:inherit; border: solid 1px Silver; padding: 0.6em; background: #e6ffe6;"> <dl><dd><i>The following are closed discussions. <span style="color:red"><b>Please do not modify them.</b></span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</i> ⸎</dd></dl> <hr/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="ArbCom_2024_Elections_voter_message" data-mw-thread-id="h-ArbCom_2024_Elections_voter_message-20241119002400"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-ArbCom_2024_Elections_voter_message-20241119002400"></span>ArbCom 2024 Elections voter message<span data-mw-comment-end="h-ArbCom_2024_Elections_voter_message-20241119002400"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: ArbCom 2024 Elections voter message"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <div class="ivmbox" style="margin-bottom: 1em; border: 1px solid #a2a9b1; background-color: #fdf2d5; padding: 0.5em; display: flex; align-items: center;"> <div class="ivmbox-image noresize" style="padding-left:1px; padding-right:0.5em;"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MediaWiki_message_delivery-20241119002400-ArbCom_2024_Elections_voter_message"></span><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Scale_of_justice_2.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Scale_of_justice_2.svg/40px-Scale_of_justice_2.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="41" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Scale_of_justice_2.svg/60px-Scale_of_justice_2.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Scale_of_justice_2.svg/80px-Scale_of_justice_2.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="204" data-file-height="208"/></a></span></div> <div class="ivmbox-text"> <p>Hello! Voting in the <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ACE2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ACE2024">2024 Arbitration Committee elections</a></b> is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 2 December 2024. All <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2024#Election_timeline" title="Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2024">eligible users</a></b> are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once. </p><p>The <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ARBCOM" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ARBCOM">Arbitration Committee</a> is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration" title="Wikipedia:Arbitration">Wikipedia arbitration process</a>. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BAN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BAN">site bans</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:TBAN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:TBAN">topic bans</a>, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy" title="Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy">arbitration policy</a> describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. </p><p>If you wish to participate in the 2024 election, please review <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2024/Candidates" title="Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2024/Candidates">the candidates</a> and submit your choices on the <b><a href="/wiki/Special:SecurePoll/vote/813" title="Special:SecurePoll/vote/813">voting page</a></b>. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add <code>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:NoACEMM" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:NoACEMM">NoACEMM</a>}}</code> to your user talk page. <small><a href="/wiki/User:MediaWiki_message_delivery" title="User:MediaWiki message delivery">MediaWiki message delivery</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MediaWiki_message_delivery" title="User talk:MediaWiki message delivery">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth#c-MediaWiki_message_delivery-20241119002400-ArbCom_2024_Elections_voter_message" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:24, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MediaWiki_message_delivery-20241119002400-ArbCom_2024_Elections_voter_message"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MediaWiki_message_delivery-20241119002400-ArbCom_2024_Elections_voter_message"></span> </p> </div> </div> </td></tr></tbody></table></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Precious_anniversary" data-mw-thread-id="h-Precious_anniversary-20241120110800"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Precious_anniversary-20241120110800"></span>Precious anniversary<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Precious_anniversary-20241120110800"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Precious anniversary"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Gerda_Arendt-20241120110800-Precious_anniversary"></span><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1126788409">.mw-parser-output .plainlist ol,.mw-parser-output .plainlist ul{line-height:inherit;list-style:none;margin:0;padding:0}.mw-parser-output .plainlist ol li,.mw-parser-output .plainlist ul li{margin-bottom:0}</style><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1257001546">.mw-parser-output .infobox-subbox{padding:0;border:none;margin:-3px;width:auto;min-width:100%;font-size:100%;clear:none;float:none;background-color:transparent}.mw-parser-output .infobox-3cols-child{margin:auto}.mw-parser-output .infobox .navbar{font-size:100%}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .infobox-full-data:not(.notheme)>div:not(.notheme)[style]{background:#1f1f23!important;color:#f8f9fa}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .infobox-full-data:not(.notheme) div:not(.notheme){background:#1f1f23!important;color:#f8f9fa}}@media(min-width:640px){body.skin--responsive .mw-parser-output .infobox-table{display:table!important}body.skin--responsive .mw-parser-output .infobox-table>caption{display:table-caption!important}body.skin--responsive .mw-parser-output .infobox-table>tbody{display:table-row-group}body.skin--responsive .mw-parser-output .infobox-table tr{display:table-row!important}body.skin--responsive .mw-parser-output .infobox-table th,body.skin--responsive .mw-parser-output .infobox-table td{padding-left:inherit;padding-right:inherit}}</style><table class="infobox nowrap plainlist" style="width:auto; background-color:#ddd; border:5px solid #ddd; box-shadow:0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); border-radius:0.5em;"><caption class="infobox-title">Precious</caption><tbody><tr><td colspan="2" class="infobox-image"><span class="mw-default-size" typeof="mw:File/Frameless"><a href="/wiki/File:Cornflower_blue_Yogo_sapphire.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Cornflower_blue_Yogo_sapphire.jpg/130px-Cornflower_blue_Yogo_sapphire.jpg" decoding="async" width="130" height="156" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Cornflower_blue_Yogo_sapphire.jpg/195px-Cornflower_blue_Yogo_sapphire.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Cornflower_blue_Yogo_sapphire.jpg/260px-Cornflower_blue_Yogo_sapphire.jpg 2x" data-file-width="1490" data-file-height="1792"/></a></span></td></tr><tr><th colspan="2" class="infobox-header"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Quality_Article_Improvement/Precious#Paine_Ellsworth" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Quality Article Improvement/Precious">Nine years!</a></th></tr></tbody></table> <p>--<a href="/wiki/User:Gerda_Arendt" title="User:Gerda Arendt">Gerda Arendt</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gerda_Arendt" title="User talk:Gerda Arendt">2talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth#c-Gerda_Arendt-20241120110800-Precious_anniversary" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:08, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Gerda_Arendt-20241120110800-Precious_anniversary"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Gerda_Arendt-20241120110800-Precious_anniversary"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Paine_Ellsworth-20241121010500-Gerda_Arendt-20241120110800"></span>Thank you so much, <a href="/wiki/User:Gerda_Arendt" title="User:Gerda Arendt">Gerda</a><i>!</i> <i><b><a href="/wiki/User:Paine_Ellsworth" title="User:Paine Ellsworth"><span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span></a></b></i> , <a href="/wiki/Editor" class="mw-redirect" title="Editor"><span style="color:black">ed.</span></a> <a class="mw-selflink selflink"><sup>put'er there</sup></a> <small><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth#c-Paine_Ellsworth-20241121010500-Gerda_Arendt-20241120110800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:05, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Paine_Ellsworth-20241121010500-Gerda_Arendt-20241120110800"></span></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Paine_Ellsworth-20241121010500-Gerda_Arendt-20241120110800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Post_move_review_summary" data-mw-thread-id="h-Post_move_review_summary-20240801001800"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Post_move_review_summary-20240801001800"></span>Post move review summary<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Post_move_review_summary-20240801001800"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: Post move review summary"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Paine_Ellsworth-20240801001800-Post_move_review_summary"></span>Friend <a href="/wiki/User:Andrewa" title="User:Andrewa">Andrewa</a>, perhaps when you are able to find the time, the following has given me pause. I am now perplexed by the whole NAMECHANGES policy situation, and I will not attempt to close another similar RM until I can figure this out. Please help when you can. <i><b><a href="/wiki/User:Paine_Ellsworth" title="User:Paine Ellsworth"><span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span></a></b></i> , <a href="/wiki/Editor" class="mw-redirect" title="Editor"><span style="color:black">ed.</span></a> <a class="mw-selflink selflink"><sup>put'er there</sup></a> <small><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth#c-Paine_Ellsworth-20240801001800-Post_move_review_summary" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:18, 1 August 2024 (UTC)</a></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Paine_Ellsworth-20240801001800-Post_move_review_summary"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Paine_Ellsworth-20240801001800-Post_move_review_summary"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andrewa-20240801102600-Paine_Ellsworth-20240801001800"></span>Distressing indeed. A blatant and unprovoked personal attack didn't help I am sure. Looking at it... may take a little while as I am frantic IRL and it's now quite involved. Wikipedia is not perfect. <a href="/wiki/User:Andrewa" title="User:Andrewa">Andrewa</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andrewa" title="User talk:Andrewa">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth#c-Andrewa-20240801102600-Paine_Ellsworth-20240801001800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:26, 1 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andrewa-20240801102600-Paine_Ellsworth-20240801001800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andrewa-20240801102600-Paine_Ellsworth-20240801001800"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Paine_Ellsworth-20240801105600-Andrewa-20240801102600"></span>Thank you for that<i>!</i> Please, take your time. The <s>problems</s> challenges aren't going anywhere. I never seek perfection, just excellence. Thanks again, my friend<i>!</i> <i><b><a href="/wiki/User:Paine_Ellsworth" title="User:Paine Ellsworth"><span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span></a></b></i> , <a href="/wiki/Editor" class="mw-redirect" title="Editor"><span style="color:black">ed.</span></a> <a class="mw-selflink selflink"><sup>put'er there</sup></a> <small><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth#c-Paine_Ellsworth-20240801105600-Andrewa-20240801102600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:56, 1 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Paine_Ellsworth-20240801105600-Andrewa-20240801102600"></span></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Paine_Ellsworth-20240801105600-Andrewa-20240801102600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dt><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Paine_Ellsworth-20240801001800-Post_move_review_summary-1"></span>Post move review summary thoughts about <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2024_July#Fairfield_Metro_station" title="Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2024 July">Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2024 July#Fairfield Metro station</a>:</b> <a href="/wiki/Fairfield_Metro_station" class="mw-redirect" title="Fairfield Metro station">Fairfield Metro station</a> (<a href="/wiki/Talk:Fairfield_Metro_station#Requested_move_9_June_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Fairfield Metro station">RM</a>) – overturned</dt> <dd>I am compelled to wonder about how to go forward. What happened here is that a local consensus at RM was not sufficient to override the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NAMECHANGES" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NAMECHANGES">WP:NAMECHANGES</a> article title policy, and yet another local consensus at MRV did override that policy and had the article moved to the new "official" name <i>before</i> it has become the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:COMMONNAME" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:COMMONNAME">WP:COMMONNAME</a> as prescribed by the NAMECHANGES section of the policy. Was I not using "common sense", as at least one editor at MRV suggested? Well, that's done and in the past, so my question now must be: how should we go forward?</dd> <dd>Should we ignore the plural "sources" that the NAMECHANGES policy requires? That policy requires "sources" that use the new name "routinely". When I closed that move request, there had been no – zero – independent sources given that used the new name routinely. There were several primary sources that noted the name change, and there were some secondary sources <i>before</i> the name change that announced there would be an expected name change, but there were no independent, secondary sources found <i>after</i> the name change that used the new name <i>routinely</i>. After I closed the RM, an editor was able to produce one independent source, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://patch.com/new-york/new-york-city/mta-announces-july-4th-service-schedule-changes">patch.com</a>, published the same day, 1 July 2024, that I closed the RM, that used the new name routinely. One independent, secondary source. To date, that is the only independent source that uses the new name routinely. Our policy says "sources". I've run into editors who think there should be 10 or 12 good, independent, secondary sources that use the new name routinely before that new name becomes the common name. In the past, I've been happy with 3 or 4 of those sources. Now I just don't know. The policy isn't specific as to the number of those sources needed, it just says "sources" – plural, more than one. Yet in this case, a page was moved to a new, official name based upon only one independent source that used the new name routinely.</dd> <dd>I should also note my respect for <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:IAR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:IAR">WP:IAR</a>, but I've always thought that to ignore a policy or guideline, and the community agreements that built them, requires <i>very good reason</i>. Nobody, not in the RM nor in the MRV, nobody gave a good reason to ignore the NAMECHANGES article title policy. Yet they did ignore it. So...</dd> <dd>I don't know how we should go forward with move requests that have proposed a title change to a new, official name when there are no independent sources, or only one source, that uses the new name routinely, when there should be at the very least two "sources" as prescribed by the NAMECHANGES article title policy. Can anyone see this dilemma clearly and give me guidance as to how we should go forward?</dd> <dd>After rereading <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary,_secondary_and_tertiary_sources" title="Wikipedia:No original research">[this other policy]</a> about primary and secondary sources, maybe I was being too restrictive about using specifically secondary sources that used the new name routinely? I'm still at a loss to understand how to go forward. We are still supposed to give "due consideration to the relevant consensus of the Wikipedia community in general as reflected in applicable policy, guidelines and naming conventions",<sup id="cite_ref-1" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-1"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>1<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> aren't we?</dd> <dd>One last thought... there is no way I would take this to the next level that would follow a MRV decision with which I disagree. Not my style. Worst comes to worst, I will just refrain from closing this type of RM and hope that whoever does close them will do a better job than I have done. <i><b><a href="/wiki/User:Paine_Ellsworth" title="User:Paine Ellsworth"><span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span></a></b></i> , <a href="/wiki/Editor" class="mw-redirect" title="Editor"><span style="color:black">ed.</span></a> <a class="mw-selflink selflink"><sup>put'er there</sup></a> <small><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth#c-Paine_Ellsworth-20240801001800-Post_move_review_summary-1" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:18, 1 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Paine_Ellsworth-20240801001800-Post_move_review_summary-1"></span></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Paine_Ellsworth-20240801001800-Post_move_review_summary-1"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span></dd></dl> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1232521257">.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk{margin:auto 0;border:1px dashed var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:4px;padding-left:1em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk-title{font-weight:bold}</style><div class="reflist-talk"> <p class="reflist-talk-title">References</p> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1239543626">.mw-parser-output .reflist{margin-bottom:0.5em;list-style-type:decimal}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .reflist{font-size:90%}}.mw-parser-output .reflist .references{font-size:100%;margin-bottom:0;list-style-type:inherit}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-2{column-width:30em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-3{column-width:25em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns{margin-top:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns ol{margin-top:0}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns li{page-break-inside:avoid;break-inside:avoid-column}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-alpha{list-style-type:upper-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-roman{list-style-type:upper-roman}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-alpha{list-style-type:lower-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-greek{list-style-type:lower-greek}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-roman{list-style-type:lower-roman}</style><div class="reflist"> <div class="mw-references-wrap"><ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-1"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-1">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RMCIDC" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RMCIDC">WP:RMCIDC</a></span> </li> </ol></div></div> </div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id=""Wikipedia:Redirect_assimilation"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion" data-mw-thread-id="h-"Wikipedia:Redirect_assimilation"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion-20241122032000"><span id=".22Wikipedia:Redirect_assimilation.22_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-"Wikipedia:Redirect_assimilation"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion-20241122032000"></span>"<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirect_assimilation" title="Wikipedia:Redirect assimilation">Wikipedia:Redirect assimilation</a>" listed at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion">Redirects for discussion</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-"Wikipedia:Redirect_assimilation"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion-20241122032000"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Paine_Ellsworth&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: "Wikipedia:Redirect assimilation" listed at Redirects for discussion"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Trovatore-20241122032000-"Wikipedia:Redirect_assimilation"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion"></span><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Information.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/30px-Information.svg.png" decoding="async" width="30" height="30" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/45px-Information.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/60px-Information.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="256" data-file-height="256"/></a></span> The redirect <span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Redirect_assimilation&redirect=no">Wikipedia:Redirect assimilation</a></span> has been listed at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion">redirects for discussion</a> to determine whether its use and function meets the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirect" title="Wikipedia:Redirect">redirect guidelines</a>. 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