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<!DOCTYPE html> <html class="client-nojs" lang="en" dir="ltr"> <head> <meta charset="UTF-8"/> <title>User talk:Pat Palmer - Citizendium</title> <script>document.documentElement.className="client-js";RLCONF={"wgBreakFrames":false,"wgSeparatorTransformTable":["",""],"wgDigitTransformTable":["",""],"wgDefaultDateFormat":"dmy","wgMonthNames":["","January","February","March","April","May","June","July","August","September","October","November","December"],"wgRequestId":"4d9251569e57afa4eb2a26c9","wgCSPNonce":false,"wgCanonicalNamespace":"User_talk","wgCanonicalSpecialPageName":false,"wgNamespaceNumber":3,"wgPageName":"User_talk:Pat_Palmer","wgTitle":"Pat Palmer","wgCurRevisionId":993258,"wgRevisionId":919073,"wgArticleId":207534,"wgIsArticle":true,"wgIsRedirect":false,"wgAction":"view","wgUserName":null,"wgUserGroups":["*"],"wgCategories":[],"wgPageContentLanguage":"en","wgPageContentModel":"wikitext","wgRelevantPageName":"User_talk:Pat_Palmer","wgRelevantArticleId":207534,"wgIsProbablyEditable":false,"wgRelevantPageIsProbablyEditable":false,"wgRestrictionEdit":[],"wgRestrictionMove":[],"wgRelevantUserName":"Pat Palmer", "wgPageFormsTargetName":null,"wgPageFormsAutocompleteValues":[],"wgPageFormsAutocompleteOnAllChars":false,"wgPageFormsFieldProperties":[],"wgPageFormsCargoFields":[],"wgPageFormsDependentFields":[],"wgPageFormsCalendarValues":[],"wgPageFormsCalendarParams":[],"wgPageFormsCalendarHTML":null,"wgPageFormsGridValues":[],"wgPageFormsGridParams":[],"wgPageFormsContLangYes":null,"wgPageFormsContLangNo":null,"wgPageFormsContLangMonths":[],"wgPageFormsHeightForMinimizingInstances":800,"wgPageFormsShowOnSelect":[],"wgPageFormsScriptPath":"/wiki/extensions/PageForms","edgValues":null,"wgPageFormsEDSettings":null,"wgAmericanDates":false,"wgVector2022PreviewPages":[],"wgMediaViewerOnClick":true,"wgMediaViewerEnabledByDefault":true,"wgPopupsFlags":4};RLSTATE={"site.styles":"ready","user.styles":"ready","user":"ready","user.options":"loading","mediawiki.action.styles":"ready","mediawiki.interface.helpers.styles":"ready","skins.vector.styles.legacy":"ready"};RLPAGEMODULES=["site", "mediawiki.page.ready","mediawiki.toc","skins.vector.legacy.js","mmv.head","mmv.bootstrap.autostart","ext.gadget.charinsert","ext.popups"];</script> <script>(RLQ=window.RLQ||[]).push(function(){mw.loader.implement("user.options@12s5i",function($,jQuery,require,module){mw.user.tokens.set({"patrolToken":"+\\","watchToken":"+\\","csrfToken":"+\\"});});});</script> <link rel="stylesheet" href="/wiki/load.php?lang=en&modules=mediawiki.action.styles%7Cmediawiki.interface.helpers.styles%7Cskins.vector.styles.legacy&only=styles&skin=vector"/> <script async="" src="/wiki/load.php?lang=en&modules=startup&only=scripts&raw=1&skin=vector"></script> <meta name="ResourceLoaderDynamicStyles" content=""/> <link rel="stylesheet" href="/wiki/load.php?lang=en&modules=site.styles&only=styles&skin=vector"/> <meta name="generator" content="MediaWiki 1.39.5"/> <meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow"/> <meta name="format-detection" content="telephone=no"/> <meta name="viewport" content="width=1000"/> <link rel="icon" href="/images/favicon1.ico"/> <link rel="search" type="application/opensearchdescription+xml" href="/wiki/opensearch_desc.php" title="Citizendium"/> <link rel="EditURI" type="application/rsd+xml" href="https://citizendium.org/wiki/api.php?action=rsd"/> <link rel="license" href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/4.0/"/> <link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml" title="Citizendium Atom feed" href="/wiki/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&feed=atom"/> <script async src="https://www.googletagmanager.com/gtag/js?id=G-W7ML9SNPXT"></script> <script> window.dataLayer = window.dataLayer || []; function gtag(){dataLayer.push(arguments);} gtag('js', new Date()); gtag('config', 'G-W7ML9SNPXT'); </script> </head> <body class="mediawiki ltr sitedir-ltr mw-hide-empty-elt ns-3 ns-talk page-User_talk_Pat_Palmer rootpage-User_talk_Pat_Palmer skin-vector action-view skin-vector-legacy vector-feature-language-in-header-enabled vector-feature-language-in-main-page-header-disabled vector-feature-language-alert-in-sidebar-disabled vector-feature-sticky-header-disabled vector-feature-sticky-header-edit-disabled vector-feature-table-of-contents-disabled vector-feature-visual-enhancement-next-disabled"><div id="mw-page-base" class="noprint"></div> <div id="mw-head-base" class="noprint"></div> <div id="content" class="mw-body" role="main"> <a id="top"></a> <div id="siteNotice"></div> <div class="mw-indicators"> </div> <h1 id="firstHeading" class="firstHeading mw-first-heading"><span class="mw-page-title-namespace">User talk</span><span class="mw-page-title-separator">:</span><span class="mw-page-title-main">Pat Palmer</span></h1> <div id="bodyContent" class="vector-body"> <div id="siteSub" class="noprint">From Citizendium</div> <div id="contentSub"><div class="mw-message-box-warning mw-revision mw-message-box"><div id="mw-revision-info">Revision as of 13:07, 16 February 2024 by <a href="/wiki/User:Pat_Palmer" class="mw-userlink" title="User:Pat Palmer"><bdi>Pat Palmer</bdi></a> <span class="mw-usertoollinks">(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pat_Palmer" class="mw-usertoollinks-talk" title="User talk:Pat Palmer">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Pat_Palmer" class="mw-usertoollinks-contribs" title="Special:Contributions/Pat Palmer">contribs</a>)</span> <span class="comment">(<span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment"><a href="#Living_persons">→‎Living persons</a>: </span> probably only of widespread interest while Biden's in office; general discussion of which bio's we should write</span>)</span></div><div id="mw-revision-nav">(<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=User_talk:Pat_Palmer&diff=prev&oldid=919073" title="User talk:Pat Palmer">diff</a>) <a href="/wiki/index.php?title=User_talk:Pat_Palmer&direction=prev&oldid=919073" title="User talk:Pat Palmer">← Older revision</a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pat_Palmer" title="User talk:Pat Palmer">Latest revision</a> (<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=User_talk:Pat_Palmer&diff=cur&oldid=919073" title="User talk:Pat Palmer">diff</a>) | <a href="/wiki/index.php?title=User_talk:Pat_Palmer&direction=next&oldid=919073" title="User talk:Pat Palmer">Newer revision →</a> (<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=User_talk:Pat_Palmer&diff=next&oldid=919073" title="User talk:Pat Palmer">diff</a>)</div></div></div> <div id="contentSub2"></div> <div id="jump-to-nav"></div> <a class="mw-jump-link" href="#mw-head">Jump to navigation</a> <a class="mw-jump-link" href="#searchInput">Jump to search</a> <div id="mw-content-text" class="mw-body-content mw-content-ltr" lang="en" dir="ltr"><div class="mw-parser-output"><div class="thumb tright" style="width: 238px; border: 1px solid #CCCCCC; margin:0.5em; background-color:white;"> <div style="padding-top: 4px; text-align: center"><big><a href="/wiki/User:Pat_Palmer" title="User:Pat Palmer">Pat Palmer</a></big><br /><a href="/wiki/File:Logo200Archivebox.jpg" class="image" title="How to use the Template:Archive box"><img alt="How to use the Template:Archive box" src="/wiki/images/thumb/b/bb/Logo200Archivebox.jpg/120px-Logo200Archivebox.jpg" decoding="async" width="120" height="46" srcset="/wiki/images/thumb/b/bb/Logo200Archivebox.jpg/180px-Logo200Archivebox.jpg 1.5x, /wiki/images/b/bb/Logo200Archivebox.jpg 2x" data-file-width="200" data-file-height="77" /></a> </div> <div align="center"> <a class="mw-selflink selflink">Current talk page</a></div> <div style="text-align:center"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pat_Palmer/Archive_1" title="User talk:Pat Palmer/Archive 1">Archive 1</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pat_Palmer/Archive_2" title="User talk:Pat Palmer/Archive 2">Archive 2</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pat_Palmer/Archive_3" title="User talk:Pat Palmer/Archive 3">Archive 3</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pat_Palmer/Archive_4" title="User talk:Pat Palmer/Archive 4">Archive 4</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pat_Palmer/Archive_5" title="User talk:Pat Palmer/Archive 5"> Archive 5</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pat_Palmer/Archive_6" title="User talk:Pat Palmer/Archive 6"> Archive 6</a> <br /></div> </div> <p><br /> </p> <div id="toc" class="toc" role="navigation" aria-labelledby="mw-toc-heading"><input type="checkbox" role="button" id="toctogglecheckbox" class="toctogglecheckbox" style="display:none" /><div class="toctitle" lang="en" dir="ltr"><h2 id="mw-toc-heading">Contents</h2><span class="toctogglespan"><label class="toctogglelabel" for="toctogglecheckbox"></label></span></div> <ul> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-1"><a href="#Mount_Evans_to_Mount_blue_sky"><span class="tocnumber">1</span> <span class="toctext">Mount Evans to Mount blue sky</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-2"><a href="#Test_Comment"><span class="tocnumber">2</span> <span class="toctext">Test Comment</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-3"><a href="#App"><span class="tocnumber">3</span> <span class="toctext">App</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-4"><a href="#Articles_with_subpages_that_require_metadata..."><span class="tocnumber">4</span> <span class="toctext">Articles with subpages that require metadata...</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-5"><a href="#Doggie_test_pages"><span class="tocnumber">5</span> <span class="toctext">Doggie test pages</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-6"><a href="#Lemma_clusters"><span class="tocnumber">6</span> <span class="toctext">Lemma clusters</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-7"><a href="#Redirects"><span class="tocnumber">7</span> <span class="toctext">Redirects</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-8"><a href="#email"><span class="tocnumber">8</span> <span class="toctext">email</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-9"><a href="#End_of_tether"><span class="tocnumber">9</span> <span class="toctext">End of tether</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-10"><a href="#Living_persons"><span class="tocnumber">10</span> <span class="toctext">Living persons</span></a></li> </ul> </div> <h2><span class="mw-headline" id="Mount_Evans_to_Mount_blue_sky">Mount Evans to Mount blue sky</span></h2> <p>Pat, thanks for redirecting that page about the mountain in Colorado. <a href="/wiki/User:Jack_S._Byrom" title="User:Jack S. Byrom">Jack S. Byrom</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jack_S._Byrom" title="User talk:Jack S. Byrom">talk</a>) 09:17, 20 September 2023 (CDT) </p> <dl><dd>Glad to do it. It's great to see you drop by and edit a bit in here. <a href="/wiki/User:Pat_Palmer" title="User:Pat Palmer">Pat Palmer</a> (<a class="mw-selflink selflink">talk</a>) 10:42, 20 September 2023 (CDT)</dd></dl> <h2><span class="mw-headline" id="Test_Comment">Test Comment</span></h2> <p>Hi Pat! Just testing out leaving comments on discussion pages. <a href="/wiki/User:E._J._Diamond" title="User:E. J. Diamond">E. J. Diamond</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:E._J._Diamond" title="User talk:E. J. Diamond">talk</a>) 15:47, 13 October 2023 (CDT) </p> <dl><dd>Commenting on your test comment. <a href="/wiki/User:Pat_Palmer" title="User:Pat Palmer">Pat Palmer</a> (<a class="mw-selflink selflink">talk</a>) 15:48, 13 October 2023 (CDT)</dd></dl> <h2><span class="mw-headline" id="App">App</span></h2> <p>While looking for something else, I serendipitously came across tipitaka.app. I think we should mention this, but I don't know much about this modern technology, in particular how to reference this. <a href="/wiki/User:Peter_Jackson" title="User:Peter Jackson">Peter Jackson</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Peter_Jackson" title="User talk:Peter Jackson">talk</a>) 05:29, 17 November 2023 (CST) </p> <dl><dd>This looks interesting. I have loaded it on my Android smartphone and on Windows and will try it out. The smartphone version seems to be in the process of downloading a large dictionary of terms in the background, so it may be a while before it works. The Windows version is tricky to install and also doesn't work yet, possibly for the same reason. I will try again later! <a href="/wiki/User:Pat_Palmer" title="User:Pat Palmer">Pat Palmer</a> (<a class="mw-selflink selflink">talk</a>) 09:11, 17 November 2023 (CST)</dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Sadly, I never was able to get it to work. It's a great idea though. I'd love to be able to line up my favorite English translations of the canon and do a text search over the whole thing. Too bad. <a href="/wiki/User:Pat_Palmer" title="User:Pat Palmer">Pat Palmer</a> (<a class="mw-selflink selflink">talk</a>) 10:18, 8 February 2024 (CST)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <h2><span class="mw-headline" id="Articles_with_subpages_that_require_metadata...">Articles with subpages that require metadata...</span></h2> <p>I got your recent email, thanks. <a href="/wiki/User:George_Swan" title="User:George Swan">George Swan</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:George_Swan" title="User talk:George Swan">talk</a>) 20:26, 21 December 2023 (CST) </p> <dl><dd>Hi George (and anyone). I am moving the list of pages needing Metadata to <a href="/wiki/CZ:Pages_without_metadata" title="CZ:Pages without metadata">CZ:Pages without metadata</a>. Please add your newly created articles to that list. I am trying to hire a programmer to get metadata creation automated when creating new articles. We had that for many years in the past, but it was never rewritten after an old wiki upgrade broke it. <a href="/wiki/User:Pat_Palmer" title="User:Pat Palmer">Pat Palmer</a> (<a class="mw-selflink selflink">talk</a>) 11:58, 2 January 2024 (CST)</dd></dl> <h2><span class="mw-headline" id="Doggie_test_pages">Doggie test pages</span></h2> <p>Hi Pat. I found <a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Doggie/Definition&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Doggie/Definition (page does not exist)">Doggie/Definition</a>, <a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Doggie/External_Links&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Doggie/External Links (page does not exist)">Doggie/External Links</a>, <a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Doggie/Related_Articles&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Doggie/Related Articles (page does not exist)">Doggie/Related Articles</a>, and <a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Doggie1/Definition&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Doggie1/Definition (page does not exist)">Doggie1/Definition</a> which are test pages you were using. You have already deleted the main <a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Doggie&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Doggie (page does not exist)">Doggie</a> article. Do you want to keep these four or delete them too? Btw, how much is the one in the window? <a href="/wiki/User:John_Leach" title="User:John Leach">John</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John_Leach" title="User talk:John Leach">talk</a>) 03:53, 12 January 2024 (CST) </p> <dl><dd>Lol. Please delete them. I might need some test articles again in the future, and will let you know if I am using them. <a href="/wiki/User:Pat_Palmer" title="User:Pat Palmer">Pat Palmer</a> (<a class="mw-selflink selflink">talk</a>) 09:52, 12 January 2024 (CST)</dd></dl> <h2><span class="mw-headline" id="Lemma_clusters">Lemma clusters</span></h2> <p>Hi, Pat. I think I've made some progress with these by focusing on <a href="/wiki/Category:Lemma_Subpage" title="Category:Lemma Subpage">Category:Lemma Subpage</a>. I decided to action all articles with subpages other than Related Articles so we now have 599 in that category and the same 599 in <a href="/wiki/Category:Lemma_Related_Articles_Subpage" title="Category:Lemma Related Articles Subpage">Category:Lemma Related Articles Subpage</a>. As this has identified several oddballs and duplicates, I think we now have a level playing field. However, there are still 15,000 articles in <a href="/wiki/Category:Lemma_Cluster" title="Category:Lemma Cluster">Category:Lemma Cluster</a> overall and the overwhelming majority are about the sort of obscure subjects we've already discussed. </p><p>I think I will take a break from housekeeping now and go back to normal writing as I might burn out if I try to keep going. Perhaps the best approach now will be to pick out anything that obviously needs a metadata, such as <a href="/wiki/Bayeux_Tapestry" title="Bayeux Tapestry">Bayeux Tapestry</a> or <a href="/wiki/Central_America" title="Central America">Central America</a>, and deal with those. As for Howard's stuff, there are numerous groups of articles with serial numbers which are easily seen, such as ADM or AH or AMD, so they could be batched together for deletion. I'll do an occasional purge but I do think, despite 15,000 being no small number, that we've got things under control now. <a href="/wiki/User:John_Leach" title="User:John Leach">John</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John_Leach" title="User talk:John Leach">talk</a>) 04:29, 14 January 2024 (CST) </p> <h2><span class="mw-headline" id="Redirects">Redirects</span></h2> <p>Hi, Pat. I just thought I'd let you know that I'm going to start hitting redirects as I've been coming across lots of them which are unnecessary or are leftovers from page movement. Some still have metadatas and/or subpages which are just so much extra clutter. I've done a search and there are over 15,700 redirect pages including hundreds of double redirects. I'm not going to waste time adding reasons for deletion because of the timeout bug so I'll build a list for the day and go through them as quickly as I can. When I see any I think are at least useful, if not essential, I'll leave them be. They can easily be restored or recreated if I hit any that are needed. </p><p>I've also finished working through letter A of <a href="/wiki/Category:Lemma_Subpage" title="Category:Lemma Subpage">Category:Lemma Subpage</a> and many now have metadatas. The 22 which remain are in PropDel as I don't think they will be expanded. We currently have 46 under B and I'll start looking at those soon. These of course are the lemmas which have a related articles page so there's "only" 560-odd of them. <a href="/wiki/User:John_Leach" title="User:John Leach">John</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John_Leach" title="User talk:John Leach">talk</a>) 04:10, 8 February 2024 (CST) </p> <dl><dd>I agree that, while we definitely need some Redirects, the wiki has too many now, and too many double redirects, and that they are clutter which we would do well to reduce. I look forwards to your efforts (I'm slowly working on them also). <a href="/wiki/User:Pat_Palmer" title="User:Pat Palmer">Pat Palmer</a> (<a class="mw-selflink selflink">talk</a>) 10:12, 8 February 2024 (CST)</dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>P S - But, please be sure to check What Links Here, and if things link to the Redirect, use the Replace Text tool (or possibly manual edits) to fix the redlinks that would be left by deleting a Redirect. It can be a bit of tedious work, which is why this work is slow and tedious. <a href="/wiki/User:Pat_Palmer" title="User:Pat Palmer">Pat Palmer</a> (<a class="mw-selflink selflink">talk</a>) 10:13, 8 February 2024 (CST)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>I've been going through the <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://citizendium.org/wiki/Special:BrokenRedirects">Broken Redirects</a> first, Pat. They were easily dealt with because there's a delete trigger for each one. We can't delete CZ pages for some reason. They produce an internal error.</dd> <dd>I also want to work through <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://citizendium.org/wiki/Special:DoubleRedirects">Double Redirects</a> which is a mess. There are 445 of those and I'll have to hold my hand up there because I can see several that are mine. I think that might be it for today, though, but I should be back tomorrow. It's snowing and settling here. First snow we've had this winter. <a href="/wiki/User:John_Leach" title="User:John Leach">John</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John_Leach" title="User talk:John Leach">talk</a>) 11:12, 8 February 2024 (CST)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <h2><span class="mw-headline" id="email">email</span></h2> <p>You asked me to send some kinds of messages to you via email. </p><p>Did you see I sent you an email on Saturday? <a href="/wiki/User:George_Swan" title="User:George Swan">George Swan</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:George_Swan" title="User talk:George Swan">talk</a>) 12:02, 12 February 2024 (CST) </p> <dl><dd>George, I did not receive it at either the CZ email or my personal email. Can you try again? <a href="/wiki/User:Pat_Palmer" title="User:Pat Palmer">Pat Palmer</a> (<a class="mw-selflink selflink">talk</a>) 11:01, 13 February 2024 (CST)</dd></dl> <h2><span class="mw-headline" id="End_of_tether">End of tether</span></h2> <p>Hi, Pat. Please see recent talk page entries and recent corrections I have had to spend time doing. I think I've had enough for now and will take a break but, frankly, I'm calling Houston. <a href="/wiki/User:John_Leach" title="User:John Leach">John</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John_Leach" title="User talk:John Leach">talk</a>) 16:55, 14 February 2024 (CST) </p> <dl><dd>Seen your message elsewhere, Pat. As it happens, I'll be very busy in home life for the next several days so I'll be stepping aside from the internet. All the best. <a href="/wiki/User:John_Leach" title="User:John Leach">John</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John_Leach" title="User talk:John Leach">talk</a>) 03:49, 15 February 2024 (CST)</dd></dl> <h2><span class="mw-headline" id="Living_persons">Living persons</span></h2> <p>Hi, Pat. I've not a lot of time for the next three days because family are visiting but we've just been chatting about CZ and one of my daughters has made a useful suggestion. </p><p>She is puzzled by the Topic Informant classification and thinks we should simplify how we categorise living person biographies (BLP) by having a Biographies category with a Living Persons sub-category. On the face of it, this seems a good idea to me. I think we'd have to augment it by insisting that all BLPs must have a metadata completed and that no BLP can be a lemma. Also, of course, anyone creating a BLP must be able to demonstrate the subject's significance. For example, <a href="/wiki/Joe_Biden" title="Joe Biden">Joe Biden</a> and <a href="/wiki/Kamala_Harris" title="Kamala Harris">Kamala Harris</a> are significant, but is <a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Jeff_Zients&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Jeff Zients (page does not exist)">Jeff Zients</a> (whose name I plucked out of a list)? I would add that everything we write in a BLP article must be verified by citation of a reliable source, especially if the person is controversial in some way. </p><p>Just one for us to think about as it might be a way towards better control of BLP creation and content. <a href="/wiki/User:John_Leach" title="User:John Leach">John</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John_Leach" title="User talk:John Leach">talk</a>) 04:22, 16 February 2024 (CST) </p> <dl><dd>I had never heard of Jeff Zients, either. 15 seconds with google taught me he is Joe Biden's Chief of Staff. That is a very important position.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>His wikipedia article has 48 references. and <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://xtools.wmcloud.org/articleinfo/en.wikipedia.org/Jeff_Zients">has been edited over 750 times</a>.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>His wikipedia article has been read something like <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&start=2023-01-20&end=2024-02-15&pages=Jeff_Zients">316,000 times</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:George_Swan" title="User:George Swan">George Swan</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:George_Swan" title="User talk:George Swan">talk</a>) 11:42, 16 February 2024 (CST)</dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Zients" class="extiw" title="wikipedia:Jeff Zients">Wikipedia:Jeff_Zients</a> is important for the moment, yes, but Wikipedia already has an extensive article about him, and it's actually not bad, so I'm reluctant to leave the one we have unless someone is going to invest the time to make it better than WP's. Thus, his name and function might well appear in our Joe Biden article, but instead of linking to a CZ stub article on Zients, we can just add a Footnote/Reference pointing to WP, or one is actually able to link directly to Wikipedia like this: [[Wikipedia:Jeff_Zients]]. That would be my preference in cases of minor figures like this. Oddly, WP's Notability policy gets anyone mentioned in the press a lot an article, but makes it damned difficult to add articles about people who, in life, are probably important to many people but are being ignored by the press, such as (just for example) <a href="/wiki/Paul_Prestopino" title="Paul Prestopino">Paul Prestopino</a>, a man who played on tracks from dozens of leading rock musicians in the 60's through 80's and was well-known across the music industry. After he passed away, it took me six months to get the article about him approved in Wikipedia (because Paul never sought the limelight), even though 70 articles in Wikipedia were already pointing off to a non-existent article about him. <a href="/wiki/User:Pat_Palmer" title="User:Pat Palmer">Pat Palmer</a> (<a class="mw-selflink selflink">talk</a>) 13:07, 16 February 2024 (CST)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>BTW I agree that Topic Informants is not a helpful Workgroup at this point, but we need some method of grouping together all the articles about living people, and reengineering Topic Informants is beyond my capacity at the moment. The code implementing Workgroups is tough to deal with. I like the idea of a Living Persons Biography category, but if we're going to create that, we need to decide what the criterion is for it. I think it's important not to keep adding mid-level professionals to the wiki, confining ourselves to people with tangible accomplishments: books, recordings, films, other works of art, writing plays that have had a long successful run (not necessarily beginners who have won a single award but whose work has not withstood the test of time), holding high office (senator, congressperson, member of parliament, head of state, cabinet member, etc.). This is an incomplete list; being the top general in a war, state or federal judge, etc. should also count. Being White House chief of staff is a very powerful position in that this person can to some extent gate who has personal access to the president, but the position is temporary, and that person is, at least in theory, not really the one "driving the bus", so to speak. After his/her president leaves office, that person becomes (once again) just another party loyalist available for hire by others, unless they decide to run for office on their own (as did, for example, Rahm Emanuel who became mayor of Chicago, which probably does warrant having a bio in here. <a href="/wiki/User:Pat_Palmer" title="User:Pat Palmer">Pat Palmer</a> (<a class="mw-selflink selflink">talk</a>) 13:07, 16 February 2024 (CST)</dd></dl></dd></dl>  </div> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://citizendium.org/wiki/index.php?title=User_talk:Pat_Palmer&oldid=919073">https://citizendium.org/wiki/index.php?title=User_talk:Pat_Palmer&oldid=919073</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks catlinks-allhidden" data-mw="interface"></div> </div> </div> <div id="mw-navigation"> <h2>Navigation menu</h2> <div id="mw-head"> <nav id="p-personal" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-personal vector-user-menu-legacy" aria-labelledby="p-personal-label" role="navigation" > <h3 id="p-personal-label" class="vector-menu-heading " > <span class="vector-menu-heading-label">Personal tools</span> </h3> <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"><li id="pt-login" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&returnto=User+talk%3APat+Palmer&returntoquery=oldid%3D919073" title="To edit pages, [[Special:RequestAccount|get a contributor account]]. 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