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class="vector-column-end"> <div class="vector-sticky-pinned-container"> <nav class="vector-page-tools-landmark" aria-label="Page tools"> <div id="vector-page-tools-pinned-container" class="vector-pinned-container"> </div> </nav> <nav class="vector-appearance-landmark" aria-label="Appearance"> <div id="vector-appearance-pinned-container" class="vector-pinned-container"> <div id="vector-appearance" class="vector-appearance vector-pinnable-element"> <div class="vector-pinnable-header vector-appearance-pinnable-header vector-pinnable-header-pinned" data-feature-name="appearance-pinned" data-pinnable-element-id="vector-appearance" data-pinned-container-id="vector-appearance-pinned-container" data-unpinned-container-id="vector-appearance-unpinned-container" > <div class="vector-pinnable-header-label">Appearance</div> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-pin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-appearance.pin">move to sidebar</button> <button 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class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:David_A&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Arbcom case request"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Girth_Summit-20241107194800-Arbcom_case_request"></span>Hey - that case request isn't the place to discuss a sockpuppet investigation, so I'll do it here -suggest you self revert over there. </p><p>Long story short - yes, blocked as a sock. This is based on some pretty damning behavioural observations, I'm as close to being certain as I can be without a CU hit (which I wouldn't necessarily expect after two years, people move house, change ISP providers, etc). I'm not going to set out the evidence I'm public - that teaches sockpuppeteers how to evade detection. I'll explain off wiki to any member of arbcom, check user or admin considering an unblock request. <a href="/wiki/User:Girth_Summit" title="User:Girth Summit"><span style="font-family:Impact;color:#006400;">Girth</span> <span style="font-family:Impact;color:#4B0082;">Summit</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Girth_Summit" title="User talk:Girth Summit"><sub style="font-family:Segoe print;color:blue;"> (blether)</sub></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:David_A#c-Girth_Summit-20241107194800-Arbcom_case_request" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:48, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Girth_Summit-20241107194800-Arbcom_case_request"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Girth_Summit-20241107194800-Arbcom_case_request"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-David_A-20241107195100-Girth_Summit-20241107194800"></span>Okay. I will self-revert then. It is definitely too bad though. I like Carmen. She has done a lot of good work here, and seems to have very good intentions. <a href="/wiki/User:David_A" title="User:David A">David A</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:David_A#c-David_A-20241107195100-Girth_Summit-20241107194800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:51, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-David_A-20241107195100-Girth_Summit-20241107194800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-David_A-20241107195100-Girth_Summit-20241107194800"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FCase&diff=1256012436&oldid=1256012259"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-David_A-20241107195400-Girth_Summit-20241107194800"></span>I have self-reverted now</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:David_A" title="User:David A">David A</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:David_A#c-David_A-20241107195400-Girth_Summit-20241107194800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:54, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-David_A-20241107195400-Girth_Summit-20241107194800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-David_A-20241107195400-Girth_Summit-20241107194800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Girth_Summit-20241107203300-David_A-20241107195400"></span>Thanks. Honestly, I don't have a view on the quality of their work, or their intentions. Someone made a report at SPI, making some observations about similar esoteric interests over at Wikidata. I looked at their contribs, and those of their previous socks, and the more I looked the more similarities I saw and the more suspicious I became, until I was entirely convinced - there are just too many pointers for it to conceivably be a coincidence. <div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>So, then we come down to the question of whether or not someone should remain blocked, just because they were blocked years ago. I'm afraid that I personally (and I have the weight of policy behind me on this) usually come down on the side of 'yes'. They were originally blocked for using multiple accounts to stack !votes in their direction in deletion discussions and the like; they probably could have waited a bit then appealed the block, but no, they created a new bunch of socks and carried on as they were. At that point it's harder to view them in a positive light. At this point, I think that <span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CarmenEsparzaAmoux">CarmenEsparzaAmoux</a></span> is their twelfth account <i>that we are aware of</i> - sure, as far as I can see they haven't been operating multiple accounts <i>on enwiki</i> and <i>within the CU window</i>, but this is someone who has demonstrated a lack of respect for the integrity of the consensus-building process, and for our policies in general. Even now, however, the door would still be open for them to return - they would need to either convince another administrator that I'm wrong about their account (that's always possible), or they could come clear about their past behaviour, commit to abiding by the rules, and probably wait out a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SO" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SO">six-month time-out in the sin bin</a>, but it could happen. Based on their past form however, I would not be at all surprised if they simply walk away from that account and start using another one in a couple of weeks in hopes that this time, we won't catch them. <a href="/wiki/User:Girth_Summit" title="User:Girth Summit"><span style="font-family:Impact;color:#006400;">Girth</span> <span style="font-family:Impact;color:#4B0082;">Summit</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Girth_Summit" title="User talk:Girth Summit"><sub style="font-family:Segoe print;color:blue;"> (blether)</sub></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:David_A#c-Girth_Summit-20241107203300-David_A-20241107195400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:33, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Girth_Summit-20241107203300-David_A-20241107195400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Girth_Summit-20241107203300-David_A-20241107195400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-David_A-20241107205600-Girth_Summit-20241107203300"></span>Okay. I suppose that seems to make sense. I am just surprised and rather sad that this happened, as Carmen added lots of reliable information that highlighted crimes against humanity, which I think is important to make publicly available, to hopefully help create a more well-informed, kinder, freer, and more humane world in the long run. <a href="/wiki/User:David_A" title="User:David A">David A</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:David_A#c-David_A-20241107205600-Girth_Summit-20241107203300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:56, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-David_A-20241107205600-Girth_Summit-20241107203300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-David_A-20241107205600-Girth_Summit-20241107203300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Girth_Summit-20241107230300-David_A-20241107205600"></span>I'll say again that I don't have a view on the quality of their work - I wasn't looking at that, I was looking at the articles edited, and the types of subject they got involved with. I'll also give you an update - a couple of hours ago they logged into the Carmen account, saw that it was blocked, and then logged into the master account and a couple of other blocked accounts. I don't know why they did that - maybe they panicked, maybe it was a sort of admission of guilt, or maybe it was a 'fuck you' directed at me, or all of us. But it removed any doubt from my mind 'Carmen' is a long term abuser who has gone by many names on this project, and lied again and again and again to get what they want. I'm sorry, this is never nice when it's an account that one has come to trust, but it's true. <a href="/wiki/User:Girth_Summit" title="User:Girth Summit"><span style="font-family:Impact;color:#006400;">Girth</span> <span style="font-family:Impact;color:#4B0082;">Summit</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Girth_Summit" title="User talk:Girth Summit"><sub style="font-family:Segoe print;color:blue;"> (blether)</sub></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:David_A#c-Girth_Summit-20241107230300-David_A-20241107205600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:03, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Girth_Summit-20241107230300-David_A-20241107205600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Girth_Summit-20241107230300-David_A-20241107205600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-David_A-20241108051800-Girth_Summit-20241107230300"></span>Okay. I am very sorry to hear that. The Carmen account did a lot of very good humanitarian volunteer work in Wikipedia. <a href="/wiki/User:David_A" title="User:David A">David A</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:David_A#c-David_A-20241108051800-Girth_Summit-20241107230300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:18, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-David_A-20241108051800-Girth_Summit-20241107230300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-David_A-20241108051800-Girth_Summit-20241107230300"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-David_A-20241108100500-Girth_Summit-20241107230300"></span>Anyway, I had already almost completely abandoned all political editing, due to not being emotionally able to handle being continuously bombarded with dystopian horror, and now it is turning very personally dangerous for me and likely my family and friends and workmates as well, with news articles attacking specific Wikipedia members and being tweeted by Elon Musk in front of 53 million people, and those Wikipedia editors allegedly being systematically terrorised IRL as a result. So I think now would be a good time to completely drop out from political editing and only focusing on entertainment again. <a href="/wiki/User:David_A" title="User:David A">David A</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:David_A#c-David_A-20241108100500-Girth_Summit-20241107230300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:05, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-David_A-20241108100500-Girth_Summit-20241107230300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-David_A-20241108100500-Girth_Summit-20241107230300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Girth_Summit-20241108230300-David_A-20241108100500"></span>I don't know exactly how to respond to this. Certainly, I would advise you not to edit on areas that bring you stress, or which you don't enjoy. I don't know any of the specifics you're talking about, and I'll help if I can with any onwiki abuse, but I can't claim any ability to help with what Elon Musk is up to offwiki. One observation: we're here volunteering our time to write an encyclopedia, not for humanitarian or political purposes. That doesn't mean that we should stand by and allow others to distort things in our articles, quite the opposite; but at the same time, you should not feel that you are under any personal obligation to ensure that our articles reflect a particular perspective. I'm not accusing of any inappropriate conduct (seriously - I'm in no position to do that, this discussion is the only interaction I'm aware of having had with you, and I haven't looked at your contribs), but there are some points at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RGW" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RGW">WP:RGW</a> that might be worth reflecting on. I genuinely don't mean to cause any offense by that, just a thought based on your last comment. Best wishes <a href="/wiki/User:Girth_Summit" title="User:Girth Summit"><span style="font-family:Impact;color:#006400;">Girth</span> <span style="font-family:Impact;color:#4B0082;">Summit</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Girth_Summit" title="User talk:Girth Summit"><sub style="font-family:Segoe print;color:blue;"> (blether)</sub></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:David_A#c-Girth_Summit-20241108230300-David_A-20241108100500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:03, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Girth_Summit-20241108230300-David_A-20241108100500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Girth_Summit-20241108230300-David_A-20241108100500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-David_A-20241109053700-Girth_Summit-20241108230300"></span>Well, as I briefly mentioned elsewhere, the crucial issue is that <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BilledMammal/ARBPIA_activity_statistics_complete">BilledMammal's extensive work here in Wikipedia to catalogue the activity of all editors who have a differing perspective than himself regarding the conflict between the Israeli government and the Palestinians</a>, was <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.piratewires.com/p/how-wikipedia-s-pro-hamas-editors-hijacked-the-israel-palestine-narrative">apparently quickly submitted by somebody to a pro-Israeli government journalist</a>, after which <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1849639215199650279">the information was quickly retweeted by Elon Musk, who will soon have full control over the United States economy, in front of 52.7 million people, while attacking Wikipedia</a>, after which <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Covert_canvassing_and_proxying_in_the_Israel-Arab_conflict_topic_area">BilledMammal waited until right after the U.S. election, which Donald Trump won, as Benjamin Netanyahu wished, to initiate a process to attack several of the editors that he had catalogued</a> to the poor Arbitration Committee, who now have little choice but to comply, with the threat of immense social agitation pressure and U.S. government legal and financial intervention if they do not. And all of this combined sends my pattern-recognition/paranoia alarm bells ringing, given that I am just a private citizen who wants to help make this world a kinder place, where innocent children are not casually massacred, not somebody remotely suited to vainly try to fight against the collected forces of <a href="/wiki/AIPAC" title="AIPAC">AIPAC</a>, <a href="/wiki/Mossad" title="Mossad">Mossad</a>, the Republican voter army, and the United States government itself. <a href="/wiki/User:David_A" title="User:David A">David A</a> (<a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#top">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:David_A#c-David_A-20241109053700-Girth_Summit-20241108230300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:37, 9 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-David_A-20241109053700-Girth_Summit-20241108230300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-David_A-20241109053700-Girth_Summit-20241108230300"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="ArbCom_2024_Elections_voter_message" data-mw-thread-id="h-ArbCom_2024_Elections_voter_message-20241119000900"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-ArbCom_2024_Elections_voter_message-20241119000900"></span>ArbCom 2024 Elections voter message<span data-mw-comment-end="h-ArbCom_2024_Elections_voter_message-20241119000900"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:David_A&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: ArbCom 2024 Elections voter message"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <div class="ivmbox" style="margin-bottom: 1em; border: 1px solid #a2a9b1; background-color: #fdf2d5; padding: 0.5em; display: flex; align-items: center;"> <div class="ivmbox-image noresize" style="padding-left:1px; padding-right:0.5em;"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MediaWiki_message_delivery-20241119000900-ArbCom_2024_Elections_voter_message"></span><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Scale_of_justice_2.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Scale_of_justice_2.svg/40px-Scale_of_justice_2.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="41" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Scale_of_justice_2.svg/60px-Scale_of_justice_2.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Scale_of_justice_2.svg/80px-Scale_of_justice_2.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="204" data-file-height="208"/></a></span></div> <div class="ivmbox-text"> <p>Hello! Voting in the <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ACE2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ACE2024">2024 Arbitration Committee elections</a></b> is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 2 December 2024. All <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2024#Election_timeline" title="Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2024">eligible users</a></b> are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once. </p><p>The <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ARBCOM" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ARBCOM">Arbitration Committee</a> is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration" title="Wikipedia:Arbitration">Wikipedia arbitration process</a>. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. 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If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add <code>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:NoACEMM" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:NoACEMM">NoACEMM</a>}}</code> to your user talk page. <small><a href="/wiki/User:MediaWiki_message_delivery" title="User:MediaWiki message delivery">MediaWiki message delivery</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MediaWiki_message_delivery" title="User talk:MediaWiki message delivery">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:David_A#c-MediaWiki_message_delivery-20241119000900-ArbCom_2024_Elections_voter_message" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:09, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MediaWiki_message_delivery-20241119000900-ArbCom_2024_Elections_voter_message"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MediaWiki_message_delivery-20241119000900-ArbCom_2024_Elections_voter_message"></span> </p> </div> </div>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:David_A&oldid=1258902321">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:David_A&oldid=1258902321</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks catlinks-allhidden" data-mw="interface"></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 22 November 2024, at 07:35<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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