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.wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}</style><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Crystal_personal.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/25px-Crystal_personal.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/38px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/50px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="70" data-file-height="70"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography">Biography</a><span class="wpb-nested-task-force">: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Royalty_and_Nobility" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility">Royalty and Nobility</a></span> </td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Crystal_personal.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/60px-Crystal_personal.svg.png" decoding="async" width="60" height="60" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/90px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/120px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="70" data-file-height="70"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1259569809">.mw-parser-output .portalbox{padding:0;margin:0.5em 0;display:table;box-sizing:border-box;max-width:175px;list-style:none}.mw-parser-output .portalborder{border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:0.1em;background:var(--background-color-neutral-subtle,#f8f9fa)}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-entry{display:table-row;font-size:85%;line-height:110%;height:1.9em;font-style:italic;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-image{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em;vertical-align:middle;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-link{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em;vertical-align:middle}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .portalleft{clear:left;float:left;margin:0.5em 1em 0.5em 0}.mw-parser-output .portalright{clear:right;float:right;margin:0.5em 0 0.5em 1em}}</style><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/69/P_vip.svg/28px-P_vip.svg.png" decoding="async" width="28" height="28" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/69/P_vip.svg/41px-P_vip.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/69/P_vip.svg/55px-P_vip.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1911" data-file-height="1944"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Biography" title="Portal:Biography">Biography portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography">WikiProject Biography</a></b>, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Members" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Members">join the project</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Biography" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography">contribute to the discussion</a>. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the <a href="/wiki/Template:WikiProject_Biography/doc" title="Template:WikiProject Biography/doc">documentation</a>.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Biography</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Biography</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">biography articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:CrownForShield.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/CrownForShield.svg/23px-CrownForShield.svg.png" decoding="async" width="23" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/CrownForShield.svg/36px-CrownForShield.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/CrownForShield.svg/47px-CrownForShield.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="77" data-file-height="82"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article is supported by <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Royalty_and_Nobility" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility">WikiProject Royalty and Nobility</a></b>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259570071"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Sutton_Hoo_helmet_reconstructed.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Sutton_Hoo_helmet_reconstructed.jpg/19px-Sutton_Hoo_helmet_reconstructed.jpg" decoding="async" width="19" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Sutton_Hoo_helmet_reconstructed.jpg/28px-Sutton_Hoo_helmet_reconstructed.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Sutton_Hoo_helmet_reconstructed.jpg/38px-Sutton_Hoo_helmet_reconstructed.jpg 2x" data-file-width="1162" data-file-height="1544"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Anglo-Saxon_Kingdoms" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms">Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-low">Low‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Sutton_Hoo_helmet_reconstructed.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Sutton_Hoo_helmet_reconstructed.jpg/80px-Sutton_Hoo_helmet_reconstructed.jpg" decoding="async" width="80" height="106" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Sutton_Hoo_helmet_reconstructed.jpg/120px-Sutton_Hoo_helmet_reconstructed.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Sutton_Hoo_helmet_reconstructed.jpg/160px-Sutton_Hoo_helmet_reconstructed.jpg 2x" data-file-width="1162" data-file-height="1544"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259569809"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/Peterborough_Chronicle_cropped.jpg/23px-Peterborough_Chronicle_cropped.jpg" decoding="async" width="23" height="28" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/Peterborough_Chronicle_cropped.jpg/35px-Peterborough_Chronicle_cropped.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/Peterborough_Chronicle_cropped.jpg/47px-Peterborough_Chronicle_cropped.jpg 2x" data-file-width="297" data-file-height="355"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Anglo-Saxon_England" title="Portal:Anglo-Saxon England">Anglo-Saxon England portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Anglo-Saxon_Kingdoms" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms">WikiProject Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_Kingdoms" class="mw-redirect" title="Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms">Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Anglo-Saxon_Kingdoms" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-low"><a href="/wiki/Category:Low-importance_Anglo-Saxon_Kingdoms_articles" title="Category:Low-importance Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms articles">Low</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Low-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Anglo-Saxon_Kingdoms/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259570071"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Les_Tr%C3%A8s_Riches_Heures_du_duc_de_Berry_mars.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/Les_Tr%C3%A8s_Riches_Heures_du_duc_de_Berry_mars.jpg/15px-Les_Tr%C3%A8s_Riches_Heures_du_duc_de_Berry_mars.jpg" decoding="async" width="15" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/Les_Tr%C3%A8s_Riches_Heures_du_duc_de_Berry_mars.jpg/23px-Les_Tr%C3%A8s_Riches_Heures_du_duc_de_Berry_mars.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/Les_Tr%C3%A8s_Riches_Heures_du_duc_de_Berry_mars.jpg/31px-Les_Tr%C3%A8s_Riches_Heures_du_duc_de_Berry_mars.jpg 2x" data-file-width="1144" data-file-height="1847"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Middle_Ages" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle Ages">Middle Ages</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-low">Low‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Les_Tr%C3%A8s_Riches_Heures_du_duc_de_Berry_mars.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/Les_Tr%C3%A8s_Riches_Heures_du_duc_de_Berry_mars.jpg/50px-Les_Tr%C3%A8s_Riches_Heures_du_duc_de_Berry_mars.jpg" decoding="async" width="50" height="81" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/Les_Tr%C3%A8s_Riches_Heures_du_duc_de_Berry_mars.jpg/75px-Les_Tr%C3%A8s_Riches_Heures_du_duc_de_Berry_mars.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/Les_Tr%C3%A8s_Riches_Heures_du_duc_de_Berry_mars.jpg/100px-Les_Tr%C3%A8s_Riches_Heures_du_duc_de_Berry_mars.jpg 2x" data-file-width="1144" data-file-height="1847"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259569809"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:The_Metropolitan_M_Stamp.PNG" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c0/The_Metropolitan_M_Stamp.PNG/28px-The_Metropolitan_M_Stamp.PNG" decoding="async" width="28" height="28" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c0/The_Metropolitan_M_Stamp.PNG/42px-The_Metropolitan_M_Stamp.PNG 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c0/The_Metropolitan_M_Stamp.PNG/56px-The_Metropolitan_M_Stamp.PNG 2x" data-file-width="267" data-file-height="267"/></a></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Middle_Ages" title="Portal:Middle Ages">Middle Ages portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Middle_Ages" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle Ages">WikiProject Middle Ages</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/The_Middle_Ages" class="mw-redirect" title="The Middle Ages">the Middle Ages</a> on Wikipedia. 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Wormald in ODNB says "Æthelweard's prefatory letter to her claims descent from Æthelred I, Alfred's elder brother, and he later says that Æthelred was his <i>atavus</i> (great-grandfather, great-great-grandfather, great-great-great-grandfather, or merely ancestor)." Sean Miller in the Wiley-Blackwell Encyclopedia says great-great-grandson. There is obviously disagreement among historians how to translate <i>atavus</i>. <a href="/wiki/User:Dudley_Miles" title="User:Dudley Miles">Dudley Miles</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dudley_Miles" title="User talk:Dudley Miles">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:%C3%86thelweard_(historian)#c-Dudley_Miles-2017-03-28T17:10:00.000Z-Æthelweard's_descent" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:10, 28 March 2017 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dudley_Miles-2017-03-28T17:10:00.000Z-Æthelweard's_descent"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dudley_Miles-2017-03-28T17:10:00.000Z-Æthelweard's_descent"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Agricolae-2017-03-28T20:07:00.000Z-Dudley_Miles-2017-03-28T17:10:00.000Z"></span>I found the <i>atavus</i> reference later in the work, the existing page said it was in the intro, and I was surprised not to find it there, but then I found Anscombe's reference to it being in Book IV (which I confirmed in the original chronicle). Those giving a specific relationship put a lot of emphasis on what they see as a parallelism Æthelweard is drawing between the two relationships: Matilda/Alfred and himself/Æthelred. Anscombe also points to Æthelweard's use of the term to relate Hengist to Woden, again great-great-grandchild, like with Matilda. However, if it means the more generic 'ancestor' then it would be equally appropriate and the Hengist and Matilda descents sharing the same number of generations would be just a misleading coincidence. That is why I chose to give Matilda's specific relationship to Alfred but avoid indicating this is what Æthelweard means by the term in reference to his own (even though Anscombe and Kelley both come down firmly on in meaning grandchild's grandchild). If you have a better way of addressing this, have at it.</dd> <dd>There are two published studies on the family of Æthelstan Half-King that link Æthelweard to his immediate family in different ways, and perhaps at least the more recent merits mention as a counterweight to the Barlow/Kelley reconstruction. One is by Cyril Hart, in ASE 2, 1973, 115-144 (the other is a much older one in a genealogical periodical that I only vaguely remember seeing, so that will be harder to find unless Hart cites it). <a href="/wiki/User:Agricolae" title="User:Agricolae">Agricolae</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Agricolae" title="User talk:Agricolae">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:%C3%86thelweard_(historian)#c-Agricolae-2017-03-28T20:07:00.000Z-Dudley_Miles-2017-03-28T17:10:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:07, 28 March 2017 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Agricolae-2017-03-28T20:07:00.000Z-Dudley_Miles-2017-03-28T17:10:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Agricolae-2017-03-28T20:07:00.000Z-Dudley_Miles-2017-03-28T17:10:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Agricolae-2017-03-28T21:42:00.000Z-Agricolae-2017-03-28T20:07:00.000Z"></span>Found the reference. Fenton Aylmer, "Æthelstan, the Half-King", <i>Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica</i>, 1924/5, 5th ser., 6: 341-347. Probably too old and too far from modern scholarship to merit mention. <a href="/wiki/User:Agricolae" title="User:Agricolae">Agricolae</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Agricolae" title="User talk:Agricolae">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:%C3%86thelweard_(historian)#c-Agricolae-2017-03-28T21:42:00.000Z-Agricolae-2017-03-28T20:07:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:42, 28 March 2017 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Agricolae-2017-03-28T21:42:00.000Z-Agricolae-2017-03-28T20:07:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Agricolae-2017-03-28T21:42:00.000Z-Agricolae-2017-03-28T20:07:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Unusual_literacy?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Unusual_literacy?-2017-04-03T22:17:00.000Z"><span id="Unusual_literacy.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Unusual_literacy?-2017-04-03T22:17:00.000Z"></span>Unusual literacy?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Unusual_literacy?-2017-04-03T22:17:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:%C3%86thelweard_(historian)&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Unusual literacy?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Agricolae-2017-04-03T22:17:00.000Z-Unusual_literacy?"></span>Wasn't it unusual for a man like Aethelweard to be literate - let alone <i>literate in Latin</i>? Yet, the article makes no mention of his literacy being unusual. Perhaps, it wasn't. But my impression has always been that illiteracy was general amongst the population of Dark Age/Early Medieval Europe. And that the nobility were no exception to that (excluding the ones destined for the church one assumes). </p><p>Be curious if anyone has anything to offer about this? </p><p><a href="/wiki/User:PainMan" title="User:PainMan">PainMan</a> </p> <dl><dd>Given he was a member of the highest nobility with close familial and social links to the royal family, and with Latin being the language of the church and of learning, it doesn't seem that surprising to me. Still, it is not whether we find it unusual that is important - the important question is whether any reliable source has found it so. If you find such a comment in the scholarly literature, then we can consider including it, but not based on our own feelings about it. <a href="/wiki/User:Agricolae" title="User:Agricolae">Agricolae</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Agricolae" title="User talk:Agricolae">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:%C3%86thelweard_(historian)#c-Agricolae-2017-04-03T22:17:00.000Z-Unusual_literacy?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:17, 3 April 2017 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Agricolae-2017-04-03T22:17:00.000Z-Unusual_literacy?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Agricolae-2017-04-03T22:17:00.000Z-Unusual_literacy?"></span></dd></dl>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1&useformat=desktop" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; 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