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If you believe you were blocked by mistake, you can find additional information and instructions in the <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/No_open_proxies" class="extiw" title="m:Special:MyLanguage/No open proxies">No open proxies</a> global policy. </p> Otherwise, to discuss the block please <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Steward_requests/Global" class="extiw" title="m:Steward requests/Global">post a request for review on Meta-Wiki</a>. You could also send an email to the <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Stewards" class="extiw" title="m:Special:MyLanguage/Stewards">stewards</a> <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/VRT" class="extiw" title="m:Special:MyLanguage/VRT">VRT</a> queue at <kbd>stewards@wikimedia.org</kbd> including all above details.</div></div><hr /> <p>You can view and copy the source of this page. </p><textarea readonly="" accesskey="," id="wpTextbox1" cols="80" rows="25" style="" class="mw-editfont-monospace" lang="en" dir="ltr" name="wpTextbox1">{{cfdh}} === [[:Category:Deceased persons by name]] === Should be "people" not "persons". [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] ([[User talk:Pigsonthewing|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 08:46, 22 June 2015 (UTC) :{{s}} I completely agree. [[User:Reguyla|Reguyla]] ([[User talk:Reguyla|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 11:08, 22 June 2015 (UTC) *'''''Comment''''' - i was going by the format used on wikipedia (i.e.: "biographies of living persons' https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons ), but i have no particularly strong opinion on the exact wording of the naming of (category) names; so long as we are agreed on the point that we should & do need to be sorting our biographical subjects by whether they are alive or dead. [[User:Lx 121|Lx 121]] ([[User talk:Lx 121|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 23:39, 25 June 2015 (UTC) ::While we are all here discussing this category. May I suggest a bot be setup (maybe the Jarektbot by [[User:Jarekt|Jarekt]] doing the people by name cats) that adds this automagically to articles with the death cats? I could setup a bot to do this as well if desired, and would be happy to do that, but it seems like if we already have a bot functioning to do it that would be better to do an this would be rather a rather trivial task to do. [[User:Reguyla|Reguyla]] ([[User talk:Reguyla|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 00:23, 26 June 2015 (UTC) :::I can not think of a reason why would we need such a category. If I want to get all the deceased people I would just use recursive [[:Category:Deaths by decade]]. --[[User:Jarekt|Jarekt]] ([[User talk:Jarekt|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 02:17, 26 June 2015 (UTC) :::::*''observation'' -- "deaths by decade" doesn't just include ''PEOPLE'', nor only named individuals. ALSO, ''end-users'' can't be expected to know that; much less the commands to get a list of all the names out of it. that was WHY i created the category in the first place; it flows logically from "people by name", as part of the cat-schema. [[User:Lx 121|Lx 121]] ([[User talk:Lx 121|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 22:08, 6 October 2016 (UTC) ..........because that doesn't get you a "by name" list? i'm not going to repeat arguements, so i'm just going to repost from the last discussion i had about this: ...ok, let's go back to the basics: '''''we NEED to classify our biographical materials by whether the subject is ALIVE or DEAD.'''' here is how wikipedia (EN) does it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Living_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Dead_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:People_by_status [[User:Lx 121|Lx 121]] ([[User talk:Lx 121|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 01:40, 14 April 2015 (UTC) [[User:Lx 121|Lx 121]] ([[User talk:Lx 121|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 02:59, 26 June 2015 (UTC) ::& for the record, nobody has added anything to that discussion, since i posted it. if you'd like, i can c & p the rest of my reasoning here; but i don't see how it is hard to understand: ''"we should have a list of the people by name who are alive"'', & ''"we should have a list of the people by name who are dead"''. this is a very BASIC oragnizational categorization. [[User:Lx 121|Lx 121]] ([[User talk:Lx 121|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 03:03, 26 June 2015 (UTC) :::there is also the obvious point that not everything with a date of death will be a person, much less a person 'by name'. [[User:Lx 121|Lx 121]] ([[User talk:Lx 121|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 03:06, 26 June 2015 (UTC) * Although not a response to Andy Mabbett, this category should IMO be {{vd|deleted}} per Jarekt. <small><b><span style="background:&#35;43CD80; border:2px solid &#35;43CD80; color:yellow;"> [[User:FDMS4|<font color="yellow">FDMS</font>]] 4 </span></b></small> 12:41, 28 June 2015 (UTC) ::I don't really feel strongly about whether or not to keep this category and I shall not lose any sleep if its simply deleted but I would offer a couple thoughts. It is fairly difficult process for most people to extract a list of people if they have to mine through what amounts to thousands of categories to get a list of Deceased or Living people. So it makes some sense to me to have a category that associates them together in one place rather than have to search recursively through thousands of years worth of categories when creating a cat that lists them would be easy to automate with a bot. Its certainly easier to use that category if you are running AWB or a bot. Likewise, if we are going to have categories for year of birth and death, X century births and deaths, etc. then we really should have a category for Living people and that really should not redirect to [[:Category:People]], which doesn't make much sense. The last time it was suggested about having a Living people category I actually opposed it, because it would be difficult to keep updated, but as I have worked with the birth and death cats more and more and after thinking more and more about how our content interacts with other projects like Wikidata and Wikipedia, I can't help but wonder how we can have one without the other. [[User:Reguyla|Reguyla]] ([[User talk:Reguyla|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 13:03, 28 June 2015 (UTC) :::AFAIK an actual list of all – this category rather is a random selection by users feelling like categorising into it – deceased or living people with categories on Commons could easily be generated by a tool on toollabs. <small><b><span style="background:&#35;43CD80; border:2px solid &#35;43CD80; color:yellow;"> [[User:FDMS4|<font color="yellow">FDMS</font>]] 4 </span></b></small> 13:12, 28 June 2015 (UTC) ::::::::::::'''btw''': a purely bot/tool-generated list as you described would inevitably contain errors (see my comment above to jarekt); you still need human-review to weed out "non-persons" from the dead cats, & we don't have proper "living" cats, outside the one created here, so a machine-generated list of that would contain ''EVEN MORE'' errors. you'd also have trouble identifying & isolating the "by name" element. we NEED human-intelligence in sorting & categorising materials commons; the intelligent "curating" is what make commons more than just a file-dump, & de facto, ALL commons' categories are "a random selection by users feeling like categorising into it". if that's a criteria for deleting categories, then we need to wipe the database & start again :p [[User:Lx 121|Lx 121]] ([[User talk:Lx 121|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 22:23, 6 October 2016 (UTC) ::::::'''''2 observations:''''' ::::::1. a new element of categorization has to start from ''SOMEWHERE''. we now have the beginning of chronological ordering of our photographs, because ''some of us'' started working on it. ::::::taking your "all-or-nothing" philosophy to its logical conclusion, '''almost nothing''' would ever done in categorization; lots of people contributing a little-at-a-time is HOW A WIKI COMMUNITY WORKS. ::::::2. yes. some toollab tools would certainly be both nice & useful in sorting the database; BUT if you leave it as just a set of (potential) search/sort tools on labs, & don't put the material into categories ''HERE'', then all of this is '''''HOPELESSLY BURIED''''', as far as END-USERS are concerned. The average end-user is ''not'' going to find or use some toollabs feature; they won't even know to look for it, because they will have no idea that it is ''there''. ::::::3. i also note, with all due respect, that you really have said ''nothing'' in regards to my basic arguement for the need for these categories, or with regards to the comparison i made with wp/en practices for the ''same thing''. ::::::[[User:Lx 121|Lx 121]] ([[User talk:Lx 121|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 20:42, 25 July 2015 (UTC) ::::Your right in a sense. I only recently found the category and started populating it myself but have been adding a lot to it as I go and have been trying to increase my add category/remove category logic as I find new things. It will take time to populate I grant you but a bot could do it rather quickly and keep it up to date without much effort. Same goes for others. Frankly I can do several thousand a day manually but I am trying to keep it to a more modest couple hundred so I don't flood the recent changes. It will take a while but if multiple people are doing it along with the bots it won't take that long and we'll end up with a better more useful product. [[User:Reguyla|Reguyla]] ([[User talk:Reguyla|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 14:28, 28 June 2015 (UTC) ::::::btw, thank-you for your work on this! i'm sorry that i haven't been categorizing much, recently; but aside from other life matters taking up my time, i've been feeling honestly pretty uninspired to contribute here for some time now... [[User:Lx 121|Lx 121]] ([[User talk:Lx 121|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 20:46, 25 July 2015 (UTC) ::::::Your welcome and believe me I completely understand. I feel especially uninspired about editing at ENWP as everyone knows but even here it wears on me. The drama and constant bickering about nonsense and petty shit really gets old. [[User:Reguyla|Reguyla]] ([[User talk:Reguyla|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 00:39, 26 July 2015 (UTC) :::::::Are we ready to move forward on this one yet? It looks like there is support for changing the name of this but its still not closed. [[User:Reguyla|Reguyla]] ([[User talk:Reguyla|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 19:52, 13 October 2015 (UTC) On a slightly related note, my bot is currently adding this category along with a few other common categories to home categories of people. [[User:BMacZero|BMacZero]] ([[User talk:BMacZero|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 17:48, 26 November 2015 (UTC) :To add my actual opinion, I believe that this category should be {{keep}} per [[User:Reguyla|Reguyla]]. Recursive category-searching is a mild inconvenience for power-users and bots, but normal users aren't going to know how to access that functionality at all. I am {{neutral}} on the naming. [[User:BMacZero|BMacZero]] ([[User talk:BMacZero|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 19:07, 7 December 2015 (UTC) '''Delete'''. Useless category, info can and should be retrieved by combining "(year) deaths" categories. --[[User:WolfD59|WolfD59]] ([[User talk:WolfD59|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 10:07, 7 December 2015 (UTC) :We are moving into 6 months of discussion on this. I recommend this be closed. I do not think there is a consensus to delete it but we should rename it. [[User:Reguyla|Reguyla]] ([[User talk:Reguyla|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 14:39, 8 December 2015 (UTC) '''Delete'''. While I have no problem with "persons" in this context, the category is essentially useless. It should all be handled either by death date or a category indicating that the person is dead and a death date should be provided. - [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] ! [[User talk:Jmabel|talk]] 17:00, 21 January 2016 (UTC) Delete. A useless category. If anything, it should contain only ".... deaths" categories. --[[User:WolfD59|WolfD59]] ([[User talk:WolfD59|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 12:30, 14 April 2016 (UTC) :{{Ping|WolfD59}} You already voted to delete it. No need to do it twice. [[User:Reguyla|Reguyla]] ([[User talk:Reguyla|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 16:30, 14 April 2016 (UTC) ::Oh, sorry... I didn't remember the category, but stumbled upon it today (again), and (again) thought '''what utter crap'''. --[[User:WolfD59|WolfD59]] ([[User talk:WolfD59|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 17:31, 14 April 2016 (UTC) :::No problem, I figured that's what happened. I don't mind having the category, but I think it needs to be people not persons. Regardless of what we do though, I think having this going for a year is a bit excessive so I hope someone makes a decision soon before we have all been banned by the WMF. Cheers! :-) [[User:Reguyla|Reguyla]] ([[User talk:Reguyla|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 19:28, 14 April 2016 (UTC) AAANNNDDD the category now has 17,000+ entries; as i said ''i don't care'' what you name it, but we need to HAVE a category for "dead people by name". i based the name on wikipedia/en "biographies of living persons/people" nomenclature; & i thought that "dead people by name" sounded just a little bit "funny", childish, &/or in bad taste. kind of too much haley joel osment in 'the sixth sense' -- "I see dead people!" but if you want to go with that, or if you can come up with something that sounds better, then fine. [[User:Lx 121|Lx 121]] ([[User talk:Lx 121|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 18:04, 1 June 2016 (UTC) {{od}}This has now been open for '''14 months''' can we please rename this now to [[:Category:Deceased people by name]]? [[User:Reguyla|Reguyla]] ([[User talk:Reguyla|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 16:18, 15 August 2016 (UTC) :The renaming seems uncontroversial, however, I count 3 Keep and 4 Delete votes on the issue of whether the category should even exist in the first place, which is hardly conclusive. I think we need to resolve that issue before we move 17000 subcategories. This probably needs to go to [[COM:VPP]] if you want to get anything resembling a consensus on that. [[User:BMacZero|BMacZero]] ([[User talk:BMacZero|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 16:57, 15 August 2016 (UTC) ::* your count is off; ther are only *'''3''' deletes; jarekt didn't "vote", just commented. [[User:Lx 121|Lx 121]] ([[User talk:Lx 121|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 22:04, 6 October 2016 (UTC) ::I don't really feel strongly enough to fight the deletion of the category so if the decision is delete it's fine with me. I certainly think it needs to be renamed at the least. As for discussing it on the Village pump I can submit that it's not a problem. I wasn't the original submitter but it seems reasonable. [[User:Reguyla|Reguyla]] ([[User talk:Reguyla|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 19:04, 15 August 2016 (UTC) '''''comment''''' - given that ''nobody'' on the delete side has addressed the basic, central point here, i.e.: ''WE NEED TO KEEP TRACK OF WHETHER BIOGRAPHICAL SUBJECTS ARE ALIVE OR DEAD'', not least to '''harmonise''' with WIKIPEDIA practices; & that the pro-delete point is tl;dr: "oh, this is too much work, we ''shouldn't bother''", repeated by each of the pro-delete commentors, without adding anything substantive to that, AND that the category now has 17,700+ entries, as mentioned above, i kind of think the current state of the debate is against deletion. "in theory" these discussions aren't supposed to be straw polls, they are supposed to be decided ''on the merits'' of the positions presented; & with all due respect, i really don't think the deletionist side has made their case here. no objection to a village pump discussion. would appreciate a notification & link on my talk page; for whatever reason wmc-wiki is NOT notifying me when new comment are posted "here" anymore. final note; if the cat does get deleted, & ''THEN'' someone figures out that ''we need this''; i am going to officially rotflmao about that, & it'll be a '''cold''' day in hell before i help restore the 17,700+ deleted entries. y'all can do that one without me... ^__^ [[User:Lx 121|Lx 121]] ([[User talk:Lx 121|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 22:00, 6 October 2016 (UTC) '''''NOTE''''' -- have created a redirect @ [[:Category:Deceased people by name]]; already had one for [[:Category:Dead people by name]]; all of which should make it easier for hotcat users to find the right place. as stated above ''i have NO OBJECTION to a RENAME'', though i don't see any of the suggested names as being an improvement. if someone wants to take the "next step" & move the cat, feel free. but i suggest leaving ALL the redirects in place, for findability. also, WELCOME BACK REGUYLA! :) [[User:Lx 121|Lx 121]] ([[User talk:Lx 121|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 17:02, 7 October 2016 (UTC) :{{Ping|Lx 121}} Thank you, I just went and changed the Deceased persons by name category to a redirect and retargeted that to the one you created. Once that is done, we should close this year old submission out and if someone thinks we should eliminate the category then they can restart a new discussion. I'll keep an eye on the category but I think Russbot should make the changes for us Automagically in the next couple days. [[User:Reguyla|Reguyla]] ([[User talk:Reguyla|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 19:58, 4 November 2016 (UTC) ---- The 'uncontroversial' rename to [[:Category:Deceased people by name]] has been done. Seems to be no clear consensus if it should even exist, but the discussion is clearly stale. 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