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class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Bahasa_Indonesa_&_Malay_Language"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">4</span> <span>Bahasa Indonesa & Malay Language</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Bahasa_Indonesa_&_Malay_Language-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Glossing_in_language_articles" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Glossing_in_language_articles"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">5</span> <span>Glossing in language articles</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">6 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Glossing_in_language_articles-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Comment_on_the_WikiProject_X_proposal" class="vector-toc-list-item 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vector-toc-toggle"> <span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-expand"></span> <span>Toggle Mass deletion of language articles by Ryulong subsection</span> </button> <ul id="toc-Mass_deletion_of_language_articles_by_Ryulong-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> <li id="toc-Straw_polls" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Straw_polls"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">7.1</span> <span>Straw polls</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Straw_polls-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Reorganization?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Reorganization?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">7.2</span> <span>Reorganization?</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Reorganization?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Inaccurate_maps" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Inaccurate_maps"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">8</span> <span>Inaccurate maps</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Inaccurate_maps-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-PR_for_Czech_language" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#PR_for_Czech_language"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">9</span> <span>PR for Czech language</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-PR_for_Czech_language-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/IPA_for_X" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/IPA_for_X"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">10</span> <span>Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/IPA for X</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/IPA_for_X-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Content_dispute_on_Spanish_profanity" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Content_dispute_on_Spanish_profanity"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">11</span> <span>Content dispute on Spanish profanity</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Content_dispute_on_Spanish_profanity-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Wikisource_Latin_textbook" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Wikisource_Latin_textbook"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">12</span> <span>Wikisource Latin textbook</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Wikisource_Latin_textbook-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-"Importance"_in_WPLANG_template" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#"Importance"_in_WPLANG_template"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">13</span> <span>"Importance" in WPLANG template</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">6 comments</span> <ul id="toc-"Importance"_in_WPLANG_template-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Nyemba_or_Vanyemba" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Nyemba_or_Vanyemba"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">14</span> <span>Nyemba or Vanyemba</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Nyemba_or_Vanyemba-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-The_meaning_of_grammar" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#The_meaning_of_grammar"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">15</span> <span>The meaning of grammar</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">14 comments</span> <ul id="toc-The_meaning_of_grammar-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Small_caps_in_Latin" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Small_caps_in_Latin"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">16</span> <span>Small caps in Latin</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Small_caps_in_Latin-sublist" 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vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#eyes_on_Habla_Congo,_please"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">19</span> <span>eyes on Habla Congo, please</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-eyes_on_Habla_Congo,_please-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </nav> </div> </div> <div class="mw-content-container"> <main id="content" class="mw-body"> <header class="mw-body-header vector-page-titlebar"> <nav aria-label="Contents" class="vector-toc-landmark"> <div id="vector-page-titlebar-toc" class="vector-dropdown vector-page-titlebar-toc vector-button-flush-left" > <input type="checkbox" id="vector-page-titlebar-toc-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-vector-page-titlebar-toc" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox " aria-label="Toggle the table of contents" > <label id="vector-page-titlebar-toc-label" 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class="vector-body" aria-labelledby="firstHeading" data-mw-ve-target-container> <div class="vector-body-before-content"> <div class="mw-indicators"> </div> <div id="siteSub" class="noprint">From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</div> </div> <div id="contentSub"><div id="mw-content-subtitle"><div class="subpages">< <bdi dir="ltr"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages">Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages</a></bdi></div></div></div> <div id="mw-content-text" class="mw-body-content"><div class="mw-content-ltr mw-parser-output" lang="en" dir="ltr"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1237879475">.mw-parser-output .tmbox{margin:4px 0;border-collapse:collapse;border:1px solid #c0c090;background-color:#f8eaba;box-sizing:border-box}.mw-parser-output .tmbox.mbox-small{font-size:88%;line-height:1.25em}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{border:2px solid #b32424;background-color:#fee7e6}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-delete{border:2px solid #b32424}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-content{border:2px solid #f28500}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-style{border:2px solid #fc3}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-move{border:2px solid #9932cc}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-text{border:none;padding:0.25em 0.9em;width:100%}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-image{border:none;padding:2px 0 2px 0.9em;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-imageright{border:none;padding:2px 0.9em 2px 0;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-empty-cell{border:none;padding:0;width:1px}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-invalid-type{text-align:center}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .tmbox{margin:4px 10%}.mw-parser-output .tmbox.mbox-small{clear:right;float:right;margin:4px 0 4px 1em;width:238px}}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .tmbox{background-color:#2e2505}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .tmbox{background-color:#2e2505}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}body.skin--responsive .mw-parser-output table.tmbox img{max-width:none!important}</style><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/40px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/60px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/80px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="200" data-file-height="200"/></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text" style="text-align:center">This is an <b><a href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page" title="Help:Archiving a talk page">archive</a></b> of past discussions on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Languages" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages">Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages</a>. <b>Do not edit the contents of this page.</b> If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages">current talk page</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table> <table style="text-align:center;margin:0 auto 0.5em;max-width:50em;width:100%;width:-moz-available;width:-webkit-fill-available;width:stretch"><tbody><tr><td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_5" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages/Archive 5">Archive 5</a></td><td>←</td><td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_8" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages/Archive 8">Archive 8</a></td><td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_9" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages/Archive 9">Archive 9</a></td><td><span style="font-size:115%;"><a class="mw-selflink selflink">Archive 10</a></span></td><td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_11" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages/Archive 11">Archive 11</a></td><td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_12" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages/Archive 12">Archive 12</a></td><td>→</td><td><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_15" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages/Archive 15">Archive 15</a></td></tr></tbody></table> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Template_talk:Lang-de" data-mw-thread-id="h-Template_talk:Lang-de-2014-08-14T20:33:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Template_talk:Lang-de-2014-08-14T20:33:00.000Z"></span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Lang-de&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Template talk:Lang-de (page does not exist)">Template talk:Lang-de</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Template_talk:Lang-de-2014-08-14T20:33:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-George_Ho-2014-08-14T20:33:00.000Z-Template_talk:Lang-de"></span>Anybody interested in merging <a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Lang-de-AT&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Template:Lang-de-AT (page does not exist)">Template:lang-de-AT</a> into <a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Lang-de&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Template:Lang-de (page does not exist)">Template:lang-de</a>? Please join discussion by clicking the above heading. --<a href="/wiki/User:George_Ho" title="User:George Ho">George Ho</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:George_Ho" title="User talk:George Ho">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-George_Ho-2014-08-14T20:33:00.000Z-Template_talk:Lang-de" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:33, 14 August 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-George_Ho-2014-08-14T20:33:00.000Z-Template_talk:Lang-de"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-George_Ho-2014-08-14T20:33:00.000Z-Template_talk:Lang-de"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="A_couple_of_horror_stories_needing_attention" data-mw-thread-id="h-A_couple_of_horror_stories_needing_attention-2014-09-07T06:19:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-A_couple_of_horror_stories_needing_attention-2014-09-07T06:19:00.000Z"></span>A couple of horror stories needing attention<span data-mw-comment-end="h-A_couple_of_horror_stories_needing_attention-2014-09-07T06:19:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chuck_Entz-2014-09-07T06:19:00.000Z-A_couple_of_horror_stories_needing_attention"></span>First of all, there's the article on the <a href="/wiki/Proto-Philippine_language" title="Proto-Philippine language">Proto-Philippine language</a>, which is a strange jumble of Old Tagalog (in <a href="/wiki/Baybayin" title="Baybayin">Baybayin</a> script!) and bits and pieces of information about the real Proto-Philippine language. The <a href="/wiki/Old_Tagalog" title="Old Tagalog">Old Tagalog</a> article has some of the same issues perpetrated by the same contributor. </p><p>And then there's <a href="/wiki/Kolarian" title="Kolarian">Kolarian</a>, whose only references are an 1878 work on languages of India and an encyclopedia of religion written by an author who died in 1922. Someone who knows something about the history of Austroasiatic-language studies needs to tie it in to all the developments that have happened since the days they were inventing things like the telephone and the automobile. Someone also needs to fix the article on <a href="/wiki/Jharkhand" title="Jharkhand">Jharkhand</a>, which links to it. <a href="/wiki/User:Chuck_Entz" title="User:Chuck Entz">Chuck Entz</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chuck_Entz" title="User talk:Chuck Entz">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Chuck_Entz-2014-09-07T06:19:00.000Z-A_couple_of_horror_stories_needing_attention" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:19, 7 September 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chuck_Entz-2014-09-07T06:19:00.000Z-A_couple_of_horror_stories_needing_attention"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chuck_Entz-2014-09-07T06:19:00.000Z-A_couple_of_horror_stories_needing_attention"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Help_with_checking_Cantonese_romanization?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Help_with_checking_Cantonese_romanization?-2014-09-16T03:12:00.000Z"><span id="Help_with_checking_Cantonese_romanization.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Help_with_checking_Cantonese_romanization?-2014-09-16T03:12:00.000Z"></span>Help with checking Cantonese romanization?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Help_with_checking_Cantonese_romanization?-2014-09-16T03:12:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Athelwulf-2014-09-16T03:12:00.000Z-Help_with_checking_Cantonese_romanization?"></span>Not sure exactly where I can make requests like this, but I'll take a shot here. </p><p>At <a href="/wiki/Old_Town_Chinatown,_Portland,_Oregon#Translation_of_street_names" class="mw-redirect" title="Old Town Chinatown, Portland, Oregon">Old Town Chinatown, Portland, Oregon § Translation of street names</a>, I added Yale romanizations of the Cantonese street names. I used <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=chardict">this tool</a> to get them. But I don't know Cantonese, and I'm not sure my results are all that great. Some characters listed a couple different romanizations, and I don't know which ones are correct in the context. Don't know the locally preferred pronunciation either, if that's a factor. I'm not even sure Yale is the best choice in the first place. Help? — <span style="font-variant:small-caps;"><a href="/wiki/User:Athelwulf" title="User:Athelwulf">Athelwulf</a></span> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Athelwulf" title="User talk:Athelwulf">[T]</a></sup>/<sub><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Athelwulf" title="Special:Contributions/Athelwulf">[C]</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Athelwulf-2014-09-16T03:12:00.000Z-Help_with_checking_Cantonese_romanization?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:12, 16 September 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Athelwulf-2014-09-16T03:12:00.000Z-Help_with_checking_Cantonese_romanization?"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Athelwulf-2014-09-16T03:12:00.000Z-Help_with_checking_Cantonese_romanization?"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Bahasa_Indonesa_&_Malay_Language" data-mw-thread-id="h-Bahasa_Indonesa_&_Malay_Language-2014-08-27T15:05:00.000Z"><span id="Bahasa_Indonesa_.26_Malay_Language"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Bahasa_Indonesa_&_Malay_Language-2014-08-27T15:05:00.000Z"></span>Bahasa Indonesa & Malay Language<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Bahasa_Indonesa_&_Malay_Language-2014-08-27T15:05:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-David.sinsuw-2014-08-27T15:05:00.000Z-Bahasa_Indonesa_&_Malay_Language"></span>Hi everyone. I'm new here, but I want to raise a question about Bahasa Indonesia & Malay language. Despite this language is combine into one for their similarity, I'm shocked to find out the numbers is far from reality. For example, Bahasa Indonesia is a compulsory to be learned by all citizen of Indonesia from the very young age of 7 years old (when you enter primary school at 1st grade) or younger, if you started with Pre-school or Kindergarden. This is a compulsory language that every citizen must able to speak and use officially to communicate with anyone else within the country. Knowing this, I wondered how come the population of nearly 250million as per Wikipedia estimation (<a class="external free" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Indonesia#Population)with">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Indonesia#Population)with</a> a note of literacy level of 92.81% (<a class="external free" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Indonesia#Literacy">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Indonesia#Literacy</a>) of the population, which means those are individuals age over 15 and can read and write. What language are they reading and write, other than Bahasa Indonesia? This is the only and main language being taught in all the school all over Indonesia, with additional English, Mandarin or Arabic being taught individually as per school preference. It is a compulsory for all Indonesian citizen to go through the basic 12 years education, and even if they are unable to finish their basic education, they at least able to learn and converse fluently in Bahasa Indonesia as this is a common language use among all Indonesian, besides their own race language (e.g Javanese, Bataknese, Manadonese, etc). Based on this information itself, the number is already exceeding the 250million marks, and it is not yet includes Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei and part of Thailand where this language is also used by the locals there. Therefore, I would like to question this information, as it is totally an error that needs to be replaced immediately, considering that Bahasa Indonesia & Malay language by native speaker is already more than the 6th language position in this list. And we are just base on the number of Bahasa Indonesia native speaker only. Thank you all for the assistance and I look forward to hear from you. Cheers. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:David.sinsuw&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:David.sinsuw (page does not exist)">David.sinsuw</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:David.sinsuw&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:David.sinsuw (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-David.sinsuw-2014-08-27T15:05:00.000Z-Bahasa_Indonesa_&_Malay_Language" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:05, 27 August 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-David.sinsuw-2014-08-27T15:05:00.000Z-Bahasa_Indonesa_&_Malay_Language"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-David.sinsuw-2014-08-27T15:05:00.000Z-Bahasa_Indonesa_&_Malay_Language"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Landroving_Linguist-2014-08-27T18:42:00.000Z-David.sinsuw-2014-08-27T15:05:00.000Z"></span>If you have a look at <a href="/wiki/Languages_of_Indonesia" title="Languages of Indonesia">Languages of Indonesia</a>, you may find that the situation is not quite as easy as you seem to perceive it. There are countless other languages spoken in the country. Although they do not have an official status, many of them are actually written, and for many Indonesians they maybe the only languages they speak with any confidence. I do not pretend to have any actual knowledge of the language situation in Indonesia, and I am aware that a Wikipedia source should not be the basis of any statement we make elsewhere on Wikipedia, but your statement seems to reflect the official language policy of the country, and that may be quite off the linguistic reality. <a href="/wiki/User:Landroving_Linguist" title="User:Landroving Linguist">Landroving Linguist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Landroving_Linguist" title="User talk:Landroving Linguist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Landroving_Linguist-2014-08-27T18:42:00.000Z-David.sinsuw-2014-08-27T15:05:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:42, 27 August 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Landroving_Linguist-2014-08-27T18:42:00.000Z-David.sinsuw-2014-08-27T15:05:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Landroving_Linguist-2014-08-27T18:42:00.000Z-David.sinsuw-2014-08-27T15:05:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-David.sinsuw-2014-09-25T15:21:00.000Z-Bahasa_Indonesa_&_Malay_Language"></span>Yes indeed, Indonesia have many different local language. Some of them is big enough to be mentioned in wikipedia, such as javanese or sundanese. However, Bahasa Indonesia is widely used by every citizen of Indonesia to communicate between the tribes and race in Indonesia. That is why we called it the uniting language, as everyone is speaking and understanding this main language as a common ways of communication above our own local dialects and tribe/race languages. You will be surprised that some part of Indonesia also speaks chinese, dutch, portuguese very well, but they also a native speaker of Bahasa Indonesia which is the national language. That is why I raised the question in the 1st place as I'm new in here and noticed that this information is not being updated for years, despite the other part of wikipedia are providing the facts that supporting my statement and questions on Bahasa Indonesia being spoken by more people than what is originally written in this wiki.<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:David.sinsuw&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:David.sinsuw (page does not exist)">David.sinsuw</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:David.sinsuw&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:David.sinsuw (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-David.sinsuw-2014-09-25T15:21:00.000Z-Bahasa_Indonesa_&_Malay_Language" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:21, 25 September 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-David.sinsuw-2014-09-25T15:21:00.000Z-Bahasa_Indonesa_&_Malay_Language"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-David.sinsuw-2014-09-25T15:21:00.000Z-Bahasa_Indonesa_&_Malay_Language"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Glossing_in_language_articles" data-mw-thread-id="h-Glossing_in_language_articles-2014-09-17T15:17:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Glossing_in_language_articles-2014-09-17T15:17:00.000Z"></span>Glossing in language articles<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Glossing_in_language_articles-2014-09-17T15:17:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maunus-2014-09-17T15:17:00.000Z-Glossing_in_language_articles"></span>Could we decide to make Leipzig glossing rules the standard for glosses in linguistic examples in articles about languages? That would be a good step towards standardizing our coverage and making it coherent with the standard in linguistic description.<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maunus" title="User talk:Maunus">User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Maunus-2014-09-17T15:17:00.000Z-Glossing_in_language_articles" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:17, 17 September 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maunus-2014-09-17T15:17:00.000Z-Glossing_in_language_articles"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maunus-2014-09-17T15:17:00.000Z-Glossing_in_language_articles"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Angr-2014-09-26T08:06:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-09-17T15:17:00.000Z"></span>What are the Leipzig glossing rules? —<a href="/wiki/User:Angr" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Angr">Aɴɢʀ</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Angr" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Angr"><i>talk</i></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Angr-2014-09-26T08:06:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-09-17T15:17:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:06, 26 September 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Angr-2014-09-26T08:06:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-09-17T15:17:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Angr-2014-09-26T08:06:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-09-17T15:17:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://web.archive.org/web/20110719062827/http://www.eva.mpg.de/lingua/resources/glossing-rules.php"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tezero-2014-09-26T13:37:00.000Z-Angr-2014-09-26T08:06:00.000Z"></span>These</a> - look for the abbreviations at the end. <a href="/wiki/User:Tezero" title="User:Tezero">Tezero</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tezero" title="User talk:Tezero">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Tezero-2014-09-26T13:37:00.000Z-Angr-2014-09-26T08:06:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:37, 26 September 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tezero-2014-09-26T13:37:00.000Z-Angr-2014-09-26T08:06:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tezero-2014-09-26T13:37:00.000Z-Angr-2014-09-26T08:06:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Angr-2014-09-28T07:13:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-09-26T13:37:00.000Z"></span>They look fairly reasonable. What other publications have they been adopted by? They look very similar to the glosses standardly used by <i><a href="/wiki/Language_(journal)" title="Language (journal)">Language</a></i>; are they? —<a href="/wiki/User:Angr" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Angr">Aɴɢʀ</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Angr" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Angr"><i>talk</i></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Angr-2014-09-28T07:13:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-09-26T13:37:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:13, 28 September 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Angr-2014-09-28T07:13:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-09-26T13:37:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Angr-2014-09-28T07:13:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-09-26T13:37:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maunus-2014-09-28T15:04:00.000Z-Angr-2014-09-28T07:13:00.000Z"></span>I think they are generally used by most typologists and descriptive linguists nowadays. They are recommended in many text books for linguistic fieldwork. Here are some examples: <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://books.google.com/books?id=TRan35kYq_oC&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=Leipzig+glossing+rules+used+by&source=bl&ots=ccRyyRvUD5&sig=OjZZlT5Jl_vudl45FslOd6BH7E8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=miEoVKOeLsPyoATIvYC4Bw&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=Leipzig%20glossing%20rules%20used%20by&f=false">Recommended for fieldlinguists</a><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.brill.com/sites/default/files/formatting_glosses_and_linguistic_examples.pdf">required by Brill</a><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www4.uwm.edu/letsci/conferences/arabic_symposium/pdf/benjamins_guidelines.pdf">Required by John Benjamins</a><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://books.google.com/books?id=HpctY_60thQC&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=%22Leipzig+glossing%22+typology&source=bl&ots=pw1GEjwhhC&sig=LyrRvVivto848DkjRgIBxZKLLf4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_iIoVND9NIKhigLItYHQBg&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=%22Leipzig%20glossing%22%20typology&f=false">Suggested for Typologists</a>.<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maunus" title="User talk:Maunus">User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Maunus-2014-09-28T15:04:00.000Z-Angr-2014-09-28T07:13:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:04, 28 September 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maunus-2014-09-28T15:04:00.000Z-Angr-2014-09-28T07:13:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maunus-2014-09-28T15:04:00.000Z-Angr-2014-09-28T07:13:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-01T11:31:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-09-17T15:17:00.000Z"></span>I agree, it is a good idea. <a href="/wiki/User:Landroving_Linguist" title="User:Landroving Linguist">Landroving Linguist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Landroving_Linguist" title="User talk:Landroving Linguist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-01T11:31:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-09-17T15:17:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:31, 1 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-01T11:31:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-09-17T15:17:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-01T11:31:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-09-17T15:17:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Comment_on_the_WikiProject_X_proposal" data-mw-thread-id="h-Comment_on_the_WikiProject_X_proposal-2014-10-01T22:47:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Comment_on_the_WikiProject_X_proposal-2014-10-01T22:47:00.000Z"></span>Comment on the WikiProject X proposal<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Comment_on_the_WikiProject_X_proposal-2014-10-01T22:47:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Harej-2014-10-01T22:47:00.000Z-Comment_on_the_WikiProject_X_proposal"></span>Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please <b><a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/WikiProject_X" class="extiw" title="meta:Grants:IEG/WikiProject X">review the proposal here</a></b> and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Harej" title="User talk:Harej">talk page</a>. Thank you for your time! <small>(Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.)</small> <a href="/wiki/User:Harej" title="User:Harej">Harej</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Harej" title="User talk:Harej">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Harej-2014-10-01T22:47:00.000Z-Comment_on_the_WikiProject_X_proposal" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Harej-2014-10-01T22:47:00.000Z-Comment_on_the_WikiProject_X_proposal"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Harej-2014-10-01T22:47:00.000Z-Comment_on_the_WikiProject_X_proposal"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Mass_deletion_of_language_articles_by_Ryulong" data-mw-thread-id="h-Mass_deletion_of_language_articles_by_Ryulong-2014-10-06T12:04:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Mass_deletion_of_language_articles_by_Ryulong-2014-10-06T12:04:00.000Z"></span>Mass deletion of language articles by Ryulong<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Mass_deletion_of_language_articles_by_Ryulong-2014-10-06T12:04:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <dl><dd><i><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-06T12:04:00.000Z-Mass_deletion_of_language_articles_by_Ryulong"></span>See also</i>: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Mass_deletion_of_language_articles_by_Ryulong" title="Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents">Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Mass deletion of language articles by Ryulong</a></dd></dl> <p>Hi. I'm asking for the community's assistance on <a href="/wiki/User:Ryulong" title="User:Ryulong">Ryulong</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ryulong" title="User talk:Ryulong">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Ryulong" title="Special:Contributions/Ryulong">contribs</a>)'s mass deletion of language articles: </p> <ul><li>languages with ISO 639-3 codes (i.e., Ethnologue entries): <a href="/wiki/Tokunoshima_language" title="Tokunoshima language">Tokunoshima language</a><a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tokunoshima_language&diff=628247627&oldid=628189149">[1]</a>, <a href="/wiki/Okinoerabu_language" class="mw-redirect" title="Okinoerabu language">Okinoerabu language</a><a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Okinoerabu_language&diff=628247598&oldid=628189164">[2]</a>, <a href="/wiki/Yoron_language" title="Yoron language">Yoron language</a><a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Yoron_language&diff=628247709&oldid=628189172">[3]</a> and <a href="/wiki/Northern_Okinawan_language" class="mw-redirect" title="Northern Okinawan language">Northern Okinawan language</a><a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Northern_Okinawan_language&diff=628247551&oldid=628189183">[4]</a>, and</li> <li>their supergroups: <a href="/wiki/Amami%E2%80%93Okinawan_languages" class="mw-redirect" title="Amami–Okinawan languages">Amami–Okinawan languages</a><a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amami%E2%80%93Okinawan_languages&diff=628248526&oldid=628190107">[5]</a>, <a href="/wiki/Amami_languages" title="Amami languages">Amami languages</a><a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amami_languages&diff=628247671&oldid=628189116">[6]</a>, <a href="/wiki/Amami_language" class="mw-redirect" title="Amami language">Amami language</a><a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amami_language&diff=628247799&oldid=628247521">[7]</a>, <a href="/wiki/Okinawan_languages" class="mw-redirect" title="Okinawan languages">Okinawan languages</a><a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Okinawan_languages&diff=628248120&oldid=628189124">[8]</a> and <a href="/wiki/Kunigami_language" title="Kunigami language">Kunigami language</a><a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kunigami_language&diff=628247768&oldid=628247487">[9]</a>,</li></ul> <p>where I contributed substantially, mostly on classification and phonology, using a dozen of published sources (some of which are available online). This is the most violent series of actions I have ever seen since I joined Wikipedia in 2003. </p><p>Ryulong sees Wikipedia quite differently from us. He believes that just labeling some edits as a "fringe theory" justifies mass deletion. There are so many factors behind his misconduct that there appears no hope that he would amend his behavior. </p> <ul><li>Knowledgelessness (or simply ignorance). It is an obvious fact that he is incapable of judging whether a linguistic theory is on the fringe as he knows too little about languages and linguistics. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Introduction" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Introduction">Anyone can edit Wikipedia</a>, but we do not expect anyone to edit what s/he does not know at all. We have the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Randy_in_Boise" title="Wikipedia:Randy in Boise">Randy in Boise</a> page but it tells us how to combat Randy in Boise when he edits 100 pages a day.</li> <li>Rejection of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Consensus" title="Wikipedia:Consensus">consensus-building through discussion</a>. Labeling some edits as a "fringe theory" alone does not justify mass deletion, but he does not (and cannot, I guess) list in the talk page exactly which points he would like to challenge.</li> <li>Unteachability and unwillingness to cooperate. When Ryulong is involved, we have to start with Linguistics 101 exactly because he does not know what every participant is expected to know. The ironic truth is that knowledgelessness is power in this encyclopedia. But once explanation is provided, he labels as "semantic garbage" what he cannot understand<a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Japan-related_articles&diff=595611101&oldid=595610995">[10]</a> or declares too long to read<a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Japan-related_articles&diff=595588887&oldid=595587576">[11]</a>.</li></ul> <p>This only happens in Wikipedia. In academics, he would never get his paper accepted in a peer-reviewed journal. In an OSS community, those who cannot write code are naturally excluded from decision-making processes. Wikipedia is the exception. However stupid things he does, no compiler or runtime automatically raises errors or exceptions. The only thing we can rely on is eyeballs. That's why I need the community's help. </p><p>The motivation behind his misconduct is unclear, but it is certainly related to his weird obsession with promoting his own amateurish <i>romanization</i> scheme in Wikipedia and applying it to <i>spoken</i> languages he does not know at all. He is doing this <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:New_Ishigaki_Airport&diff=598396947&oldid=598395511">without even knowing how many vowels they have</a>. He attempts to limit the development of related articles to the level that he can understand. By doing so, he tries to prevent readers from realizing that his romanization scheme is useless and rather harmful. Of course, he has no right to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Ownership_of_articles" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Ownership of articles">own articles</a>. Besides, it poses practical problems as his level of understanding is miserably poor. </p><p>I feel sorry for embroiling experts into the trouble as things involving Ryulong are destined to be unproductive. Life is short. We would like to use our limited free time better. But it's time to end the disaster. --<a href="/wiki/User:Nanshu" title="User:Nanshu">Nanshu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nanshu" title="User talk:Nanshu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Nanshu-2014-10-06T12:04:00.000Z-Mass_deletion_of_language_articles_by_Ryulong" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:04, 6 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-06T12:04:00.000Z-Mass_deletion_of_language_articles_by_Ryulong"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nanshu-2014-10-06T12:04:00.000Z-Mass_deletion_of_language_articles_by_Ryulong"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tezero-2014-10-06T13:11:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-06T12:04:00.000Z"></span>You know, it's unfortunate, but this is what happens when we have something like <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:N" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:N">WP:N</a>. Topics have to have several in-depth secondary sources from multiple publications written just about them (or at least mainly about them) to be notable, and if they're not notable they have to go. That's the rules, and honestly, I don't feel bad about the rules being consistently enforced, as much as I like languages and would <i>ideally</i> have as much information as is available on them be accessible to everyone through Wikipedia. <a href="/wiki/User:Tezero" title="User:Tezero">Tezero</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tezero" title="User talk:Tezero">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Tezero-2014-10-06T13:11:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-06T12:04:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:11, 6 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tezero-2014-10-06T13:11:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-06T12:04:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tezero-2014-10-06T13:11:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-06T12:04:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Psychonaut-2014-10-06T13:24:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-06T12:04:00.000Z"></span>I agree that Ryulong's stated reasons for blanking and redirecting the articles were completely spurious. We do not remove content simply because it describes a "fringe theory". Many fringe theories are easy to verify and well covered in reliable sources, and the mere fact that Wikipedia articles on them exist does not constitute an endorsement of their views or findings. That said, I haven't gone to the trouble of verifying in detail whether or not the articles he blanked pass our <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:N" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:N">notability</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:V" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:V">verifiability</a> requirements. (A cursory inspection suggests that they do, though—I see at least some coverage by the indisputably reliable ISO, SIL, and MPG.) Similarly, I haven't checked whether the text you yourself added misrepresents a fringe theory as being mainstream. Nonetheless, if the attempted deletions on spurious grounds are typical of Ryulong's editing, as you say, then I'd support appropriate action to prevent future disruption. —<a href="/wiki/User:Psychonaut" title="User:Psychonaut">Psychonaut</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Psychonaut" title="User talk:Psychonaut">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Psychonaut-2014-10-06T13:24:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-06T12:04:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:24, 6 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Psychonaut-2014-10-06T13:24:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-06T12:04:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Psychonaut-2014-10-06T13:24:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-06T12:04:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-06T14:48:00.000Z-Psychonaut-2014-10-06T13:24:00.000Z"></span>Nanshu is simply acting as he always does when he is challenged on his actions on these articles. The bulk of these pages concern dialects of other languages, and not languages unto themselves. That is why after I raised these edits up for debate at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:JAPAN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:JAPAN">WT:JAPAN</a>, as well as receiving no answer from Nanshu on another issue I raised to him, I simply restored the articles to their original states before Nanshu split apart <a href="/wiki/Amami_language" class="mw-redirect" title="Amami language">Amami language</a> and <a href="/wiki/Kunigami_language" title="Kunigami language">Kunigami language</a> into all of the pages he describes. He has consistently removed the langauges' names in their native (or rather borrowed) written forms and has refused or outright slandered me whenever I challenge his supposed expertise. I have restored the articles to the original states once more so an actual discussion can take place instead of Nanshu asserting that he is correct and I am a buffoon for doubting him. To be quite honest, Nanshu has been warned in the past for being unnecessarily attacking towards me and this is no exception.—<a href="/wiki/User:Ryulong" title="User:Ryulong"><span style="color:blue;">Ryūlóng</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ryulong" title="User talk:Ryulong"><span style="color:gold;">琉竜</span></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Ryulong-2014-10-06T14:48:00.000Z-Psychonaut-2014-10-06T13:24:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:48, 6 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-06T14:48:00.000Z-Psychonaut-2014-10-06T13:24:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ryulong-2014-10-06T14:48:00.000Z-Psychonaut-2014-10-06T13:24:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Psychonaut-2014-10-06T15:09:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-06T14:48:00.000Z"></span>If that's the case, then your edit summaries should have at least linked to the discussion rather than offering a completely fallacious rationale. (Mind you, now that I've actually read the discussion, I'm not sure I see much policy-based reasoning there either.) What you say about Nanshu may be true (again, I haven't checked), but that's no excuse for failing to providing sound reasons when you blank entire articles. —<a href="/wiki/User:Psychonaut" title="User:Psychonaut">Psychonaut</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Psychonaut" title="User talk:Psychonaut">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Psychonaut-2014-10-06T15:09:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-06T14:48:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:09, 6 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Psychonaut-2014-10-06T15:09:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-06T14:48:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Psychonaut-2014-10-06T15:09:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-06T14:48:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-06T15:47:00.000Z-Psychonaut-2014-10-06T15:09:00.000Z"></span>Perhaps I should have, but it's not a mistake that can be fixed. The fact is that Nanshu split up <a href="/wiki/Amami_language" class="mw-redirect" title="Amami language">Amami language</a> and <a href="/wiki/Kunigami_language" title="Kunigami language">Kunigami language</a> into three separate articles each on the fact that he found some sources that describe what the majority of sources refer to as just dialects of those two languages into articles on completely separate languages, with the vague backing of the ISO standard. After <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amami_language&diff=prev&oldid=625315835">first expanding</a> <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kunigami_language&diff=prev&oldid=625315833">both articles</a> last month (which both include sections that he's labeled "citation needed" and messages saying "since the so-called Amami language is in reality a highly diversified group of languages that are known for phonetic innovativeness, it must be clarified which language is to be described in this section", he created his own divisions of the languages which as far as I am aware are not accepted by the linguistic community at large. They may exist in the ISO, but there is <b>nothing</b> online about them until Nanshu's pages got indexed by Google: "Tokunoshima language" gets 14 hits, "Okinoerabu language" is 9, "Yoron language" is 80 for some reason (some appear to be false positives), "Northern Okinawan language" is 11 hits. There is nothing about these languages except in the mostly same references he cites on the four new languages he made pages for. Being listed as separate in ethnologue and the ISO is not a suitable reason when prevailing theory suggests that what is defined by the ISO as ams (Southern Amami-Oshima), kzg (Kikai Island), ryn (Northern Amami-Oshima), and tkn (Tokunoshima) are all dialects of one "Amami language" and okn (Okinoerabu), xug (Kunigami), and yox (Yoron) are all "Kunigami language". Whatever he's pulling from the minor publications he found to justify creating separate pages on Tokunoshima, Okinoerabu, and Yoron, completely changing Kunigami to be "Northern Okinawan", and consistently removing the Japonic text names of the languages and dialects involved (島口/シマユムタ from Amami and 山原言葉/ヤンバルクトゥーバ from Kunigami) does not have consensus and is not justified.</dd> <dd>Also, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive829#Ad_hominem_attacks" title="Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive829">Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive829#Ad hominem attacks</a> for the previous discussion on Nanshu's behavior.—<a href="/wiki/User:Ryulong" title="User:Ryulong"><span style="color:blue;">Ryūlóng</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ryulong" title="User talk:Ryulong"><span style="color:gold;">琉竜</span></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Ryulong-2014-10-06T15:47:00.000Z-Psychonaut-2014-10-06T15:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:47, 6 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-06T15:47:00.000Z-Psychonaut-2014-10-06T15:09:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ryulong-2014-10-06T15:47:00.000Z-Psychonaut-2014-10-06T15:09:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-06T16:27:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-06T12:04:00.000Z"></span>When I saw what Nanshu had done, I was appalled. He literally made up his own grouping of the <a href="/wiki/Ry%C5%ABky%C5%ABan_languages" class="mw-redirect" title="Ryūkyūan languages">Ryūkyūan languages</a> based off of a non-mainstream source and his own "expertise". Then he made articles about them and majorly rewrote existing articles to fit his new grouping. If I wasn't pressed for time at the moment, I would have reverted his edits myself on the same grounds. Ryulong had also noticed, as he also has contributed significantly to the Ryūkyūan language articles. He posted on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:JAPAN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:JAPAN">WT:JAPAN</a>, and there I advocated him to take action. Nanshu believes that Ryulong had reverted him out of their feuding, however that is not the case. The three points that Nanshu makes in his complaint are all incorrect:</dd> <dd>1) Knowledgelessness: Ryulong has made significant contributions to all of the Ryūkyūan language articles and to Ryūkyūan subjects in general. It is obvious that he has a strong understanding of this subject, and Nanshu's attack on this is just him saying that he "knows more".</dd> <dd>2) Rejection of consensus-building through discussion: first-off, Ryulong attempted to discuss this on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:JAPAN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:JAPAN">WT:JAPAN</a>. After I suggested that Nanshu's edits be reverted, he took action. Nanshu on the other hand, didn't respond there and instead went straight to AN/I.</dd> <dd>3) Unteachability and unwillingness to coöperate: Ryulong, while blunt, is usually reasonable and coöperative. I've had many experiences where we've opossed each other yet found consensus. However, it's hard to coöperate with someone who won't coöperate. Nanshu believes that he is right and everyone else is wrong, period. Arguing with him does nothing constructive, as he refuses to listen to your side of any debate. He gets angered by opposition and criticism, and more so by reverts, yet he has no desire to find consensus.</dd> <dd>If anyone else had reverted his edits, we'd still be here to talk about their "misconduct". <b><a href="/wiki/User:Sturmgewehr88" title="User:Sturmgewehr88"><span style="background:black"><span style="color:red">ミーラー強斗武</span></span></a></b> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sturmgewehr88" title="User talk:Sturmgewehr88">StG88ぬ会話</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-06T16:27:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-06T12:04:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:27, 6 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-06T16:27:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-06T12:04:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-06T16:27:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-06T12:04:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-06T16:53:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-06T12:04:00.000Z"></span>Also see <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kunigami_language&curid=6669458&diff=628477512&oldid=628465871">this</a>. <b><a href="/wiki/User:Sturmgewehr88" title="User:Sturmgewehr88"><span style="background:black"><span style="color:red">ミーラー強斗武</span></span></a></b> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sturmgewehr88" title="User talk:Sturmgewehr88">StG88ぬ会話</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-06T16:53:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-06T12:04:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:53, 6 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-06T16:53:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-06T12:04:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-06T16:53:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-06T12:04:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-06T16:53:00.000Z"></span>In my analogy, you are a guy in an OSS community who cannot write code but tries to control decision-making processes. How can you judge whether a paper you have never read represents a fringe theory. Of course, you may help Ryulong (if you can) as he must do a lot to fill the huge logical gaps. --<a href="/wiki/User:Nanshu" title="User:Nanshu">Nanshu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nanshu" title="User talk:Nanshu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-06T16:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:33, 7 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-06T16:53:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-06T16:53:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><br/> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z-Mass_deletion_of_language_articles_by_Ryulong"></span>Key points first: </p> <ol><li>I feel sorry for the community as the discussion is going unproductive as predicted. What is going on here is that two guys who do not know the spoken languages in question at all attempt to control a key decision on language articles. That's why I chose this page for discussion and I need help from linguists.</li> <li>Ryulong habitually carries out his purpose by reverting more often than others, but I don't like revert wars. I ask for the community's support for choosing my informative versions of the articles as <i>working</i> versions. When we have two competing versions of an article, article with and without information (blank page in our case), it is reasonable to choose the former as a working version. I have never heard of any restrictive policy in Wikipedia: we can add content only if we reach consensus to do so. Quite the opposite. We can freely add content and remove it only if we reach consensus to do so.</li> <li>Ryulong made an astonishingly bold claim: <i>Ethnologue/ISO 639-3 is unreliable</i>. Since this has <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Languages#Interpreting_Ethnologue_data" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages">broad implications for this WikiProject</a>, I also ask for your opinions as to this point.</li></ol> <p>Back to the discussion. Since we discuss mass removal of language articles by Ryulong, the correct way to read Ryulong's comments is to repeat the following question for each statement: <i>does this justify mass removal?</i> Mass removal of content with reliable sources is a serious action. He must demonstrate a lot to fill the huge logical gaps. For example: </p> <ol><li>He must prove that I misrepresent a fringe theory as being mainstream.</li> <li>Even if I misrepresent a fringe theory as being mainstream, why must the content be removed completely (instead of merger or other operations)?</li></ol> <p>Unfortunately he didn't. </p><p>You may also notice that he cites no reliable sources to support his bold claim (except the stupid Google test for minority languages with virtually no English sources). He believes that his personal, unsourced opinion overrides reliable sources. This clearly violated <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability" title="Wikipedia:Verifiability">Wikipedia's key policy</a>. For the sake of convenience, I list the sources I cited below. To demonstrate that I misrepresent a fringe theory as being mainstream, Ryulong must proves that each of them or my citation represents a fringe theory. Also, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability" title="Wikipedia:Verifiability">following Wikipedia's normal process</a>, he is obliged to show the community why each of them must be removed completely. He has a lot to do to defend his violent action. </p> <ul><li>Classification <ol><li>Ethnologue <dl><dd><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1238218222">.mw-parser-output cite.citation{font-style:inherit;word-wrap:break-word}.mw-parser-output .citation q{quotes:"\"""\"""'""'"}.mw-parser-output .citation:target{background-color:rgba(0,127,255,0.133)}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-free.id-lock-free a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Lock-green.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited.id-lock-limited a,.mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration.id-lock-registration a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Lock-gray-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription.id-lock-subscription a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Lock-red-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Wikisource-logo.svg")right 0.1em center/12px no-repeat}body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-free a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background-size:contain;padding:0 1em 0 0}.mw-parser-output .cs1-code{color:inherit;background:inherit;border:none;padding:inherit}.mw-parser-output .cs1-hidden-error{display:none;color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-visible-error{color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{display:none;color:#085;margin-left:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-left{padding-left:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-right{padding-right:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .citation .mw-selflink{font-weight:inherit}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .cs1-format{font-size:95%}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}</style><cite class="citation web cs1"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.ethnologue.com/subgroups/amami-okinawan">"Amami-Okinawan"</a>. SIL International<span class="reference-accessdate">. Retrieved <span class="nowrap">1 February</span> 2014</span>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=unknown&rft.btitle=Amami-Okinawan&rft.pub=SIL+International&rft_id=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ethnologue.com%2Fsubgroups%2Famami-okinawan&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia+talk%3AWikiProject+Languages%2FArchive+10" class="Z3988"></span></dd></dl></li> <li>Glottolog 2.3 <dl><dd><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/amam1245">http://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/amam1245</a> and other pages</dd></dl></li> <li>Karimata (2000) and papers he cited: Nakasone (1961), Hirayama (1964), Uemura (1972) and Nakamoto (1990) <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFKarimata_Shigehisa_狩俣繁久2000" class="citation journal cs1 cs1-prop-foreign-lang-source">Karimata Shigehisa 狩俣繁久 (2000). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://ir.lib.u-ryukyu.ac.jp/handle/123456789/2379">"<i>Amami Okinawa hōgengun ni okeru Okinoerabu hōgen no ichizuke"</i> 奄美沖縄方言群における沖永良部方言の位置づけ (Position of Okierabu Dialect in Northern Ryukyu Dialects)"</a>. <i>Nihon Tōyō bunka ronshū 日本東洋文化論集</i> (in Japanese) (6): 43–69.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=Nihon+T%C5%8Dy%C5%8D+bunka+ronsh%C5%AB+%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E6%9D%B1%E6%B4%8B%E6%96%87%E5%8C%96%E8%AB%96%E9%9B%86&rft.atitle=Amami+Okinawa+h%C5%8Dgengun+ni+okeru+Okinoerabu+h%C5%8Dgen+no+ichizuke%22+%E5%A5%84%E7%BE%8E%E6%B2%96%E7%B8%84%E6%96%B9%E8%A8%80%E7%BE%A4%E3%81%AB%E3%81%8A%E3%81%91%E3%82%8B%E6%B2%96%E6%B0%B8%E8%89%AF%E9%83%A8%E6%96%B9%E8%A8%80%E3%81%AE%E4%BD%8D%E7%BD%AE%E3%81%A5%E3%81%91+%28Position+of+Okierabu+Dialect+in+Northern+Ryukyu+Dialects%29&rft.issue=6&rft.pages=43-69&rft.date=2000&rft.au=Karimata+Shigehisa+%E7%8B%A9%E4%BF%A3%E7%B9%81%E4%B9%85&rft_id=http%3A%2F%2Fir.lib.u-ryukyu.ac.jp%2Fhandle%2F123456789%2F2379&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia+talk%3AWikiProject+Languages%2FArchive+10" class="Z3988"></span> <span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment"><code class="cs1-code">{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_journal" title="Template:Cite journal">cite journal</a>}}</code>: </span><span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment">Italic or bold markup not allowed in: <code class="cs1-code">|journal=</code> (<a href="/wiki/Help:CS1_errors#apostrophe_markup" title="Help:CS1 errors">help</a>)</span></dd></dl></li> <li>A section of the <i>Okinawa-go jiten</i> (1963) written by Uemura Yukio</li> <li>Nakamoto (1976) <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFNakamoto_Masachie_中本正智1976" class="citation book cs1 cs1-prop-foreign-lang-source">Nakamoto Masachie 中本正智 (1976). "<i>Okinawa hōgen no on'in</i> 沖縄方言の音韻". <i><span></span></i>Ryūkyū hōgen on'in no kenkyū<i> 琉球方言音韻の研究</i> (in Japanese). pp. 275–311.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=bookitem&rft.atitle=Okinawa+h%C5%8Dgen+no+on%27in+%E6%B2%96%E7%B8%84%E6%96%B9%E8%A8%80%E3%81%AE%E9%9F%B3%E9%9F%BB&rft.btitle=Ry%C5%ABky%C5%AB+h%C5%8Dgen+on%27in+no+kenky%C5%AB+%E7%90%89%E7%90%83%E6%96%B9%E8%A8%80%E9%9F%B3%E9%9F%BB%E3%81%AE%E7%A0%94%E7%A9%B6&rft.pages=275-311&rft.date=1976&rft.au=Nakamoto+Masachie+%E4%B8%AD%E6%9C%AC%E6%AD%A3%E6%99%BA&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia+talk%3AWikiProject+Languages%2FArchive+10" class="Z3988"></span></dd></dl></li> <li>Nakamoto (1981) <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFNakamoto_Masachie_中本正智1981" class="citation book cs1 cs1-prop-foreign-lang-source">Nakamoto Masachie 中本正智 (1981). <i><span></span></i>Zusetsu Ryūkyū-go jiten<i> 図説琉球語辞典</i> (in Japanese). p. 26.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Zusetsu+Ry%C5%ABky%C5%AB-go+jiten+%E5%9B%B3%E8%AA%AC+%E7%90%89%E7%90%83%E8%AA%9E%E8%BE%9E%E5%85%B8&rft.pages=26&rft.date=1981&rft.au=Nakamoto+Masachie+%E4%B8%AD%E6%9C%AC%E6%AD%A3%E6%99%BA&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia+talk%3AWikiProject+Languages%2FArchive+10" class="Z3988"></span></dd></dl></li> <li>Shibata (1982) <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFShibata_Takeshi_柴田武1982" class="citation book cs1 cs1-prop-foreign-lang-source">Shibata Takeshi 柴田武 (1982). "<i>Amami Ōshima no hōgen kukaku</i> 奄美大島の方言区画". In Kyū gakkai rengō Amami chōsa iinkai 九学会連合奄美調査委員会 (ed.). <i><span></span></i>Amami<i> 奄美</i> (in Japanese). pp. 150–156.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=bookitem&rft.atitle=Amami+%C5%8Cshima+no+h%C5%8Dgen+kukaku+%E5%A5%84%E7%BE%8E%E5%A4%A7%E5%B3%B6%E3%81%AE%E6%96%B9%E8%A8%80%E5%8C%BA%E7%94%BB&rft.btitle=Amami+%E5%A5%84%E7%BE%8E&rft.pages=150-156&rft.date=1982&rft.au=Shibata+Takeshi+%E6%9F%B4%E7%94%B0%E6%AD%A6&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia+talk%3AWikiProject+Languages%2FArchive+10" class="Z3988"></span></dd></dl></li> <li>Pellard (2010<del>2009</del>) <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFPellard2010" class="citation thesis cs1 cs1-prop-foreign-lang-source">Pellard, Thomas (2010). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/44/41/50/PDF/ogami-cpr.pdf"><i>Ogami: Éléments de description d'un parler du sud des Ryukyus</i></a> <span class="cs1-format">(PDF)</span> (Thesis) (in French). Paris, France: École des hautes études en sciences sociales.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Adissertation&rft.title=Ogami%3A+%C3%89l%C3%A9ments+de+description+d%27un+parler+du+sud+des+Ryukyus&rft.inst=%C3%89cole+des+hautes+%C3%A9tudes+en+sciences+sociales&rft.date=2010&rft.aulast=Pellard&rft.aufirst=Thomas&rft_id=http%3A%2F%2Ftel.archives-ouvertes.fr%2Fdocs%2F00%2F44%2F41%2F50%2FPDF%2Fogami-cpr.pdf&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia+talk%3AWikiProject+Languages%2FArchive+10" class="Z3988"></span></dd></dl></li> <li>Lawrence (2011) <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFWayne_Lawrence2011" class="citation book cs1 cs1-prop-foreign-lang-source">Wayne Lawrence (2011). "<i>Kikai-jima hōgen no keitōteki ichi ni tsuite</i> 喜界島方言の系統的位置について". In Kibe Nobuko; et al. (eds.). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.ninjal.ac.jp/endangered/common/pdf/report_11-01.pdf#118"><i><span></span></i>Shōmetsu kiki hōgen no chōsa hozon no tame no sōgōteki kenkyū: Kikai-jima hōgen chōsa hōkokusho<i> 消滅危機方言の調査・保存のための総合的研究: 喜界島方言調査報告書 (General Study for Research and Conservation of Endangered Dialects in Japan: Research Report on the Kikaijima Dialects )</i></a> <span class="cs1-format">(PDF)</span> (in Japanese). pp. 115–122.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=bookitem&rft.atitle=Kikai-jima+h%C5%8Dgen+no+keit%C5%8Dteki+ichi+ni+tsuite+%E5%96%9C%E7%95%8C%E5%B3%B6%E6%96%B9%E8%A8%80%E3%81%AE%E7%B3%BB%E7%B5%B1%E7%9A%84%E4%BD%8D%E7%BD%AE%E3%81%AB%E3%81%A4%E3%81%84%E3%81%A6&rft.btitle=Sh%C5%8Dmetsu+kiki+h%C5%8Dgen+no+ch%C5%8Dsa+hozon+no+tame+no+s%C5%8Dg%C5%8Dteki+kenky%C5%AB%3A+Kikai-jima+h%C5%8Dgen+ch%C5%8Dsa+h%C5%8Dkokusho+%E6%B6%88%E6%BB%85%E5%8D%B1%E6%A9%9F%E6%96%B9%E8%A8%80%E3%81%AE%E8%AA%BF%E6%9F%BB%E3%83%BB%E4%BF%9D%E5%AD%98%E3%81%AE%E3%81%9F%E3%82%81%E3%81%AE%E7%B7%8F%E5%90%88%E7%9A%84%E7%A0%94%E7%A9%B6%3A+%E5%96%9C%E7%95%8C%E5%B3%B6%E6%96%B9%E8%A8%80%E8%AA%BF%E6%9F%BB%E5%A0%B1%E5%91%8A%E6%9B%B8+%28General+Study+for+Research+and+Conservation+of+Endangered+Dialects+in+Japan%3A+Research+Report+on+the+Kikaijima+Dialects+%29&rft.pages=115-122&rft.date=2011&rft.au=Wayne+Lawrence&rft_id=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ninjal.ac.jp%2Fendangered%2Fcommon%2Fpdf%2Freport_11-01.pdf%23118&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia+talk%3AWikiProject+Languages%2FArchive+10" class="Z3988"></span> <span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment"><code class="cs1-code">{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_book" title="Template:Cite book">cite book</a>}}</code>: </span><span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment">Explicit use of et al. in: <code class="cs1-code">|editor=</code> (<a href="/wiki/Help:CS1_errors#explicit_et_al" title="Help:CS1 errors">help</a>)</span></dd></dl></li> <li>Nishioka (2011) <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFNishioka_Satoshi_西岡敏2011" class="citation book cs1 cs1-prop-foreign-lang-source">Nishioka Satoshi 西岡敏 (2011). "<i>Ryūkyūgo: shima goto ni kotonaru hōgen</i> 琉球語: 「シマ」ごとに異なる方言". In Kurebito Megumi 呉人恵 (ed.). <i><span></span></i>Nihon no kiki gengo<i> 日本の危機言語</i> (in Japanese).</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=bookitem&rft.atitle=Ry%C5%ABky%C5%ABgo%3A+shima+goto+ni+kotonaru+h%C5%8Dgen+%E7%90%89%E7%90%83%E8%AA%9E%3A+%E3%80%8C%E3%82%B7%E3%83%9E%E3%80%8D%E3%81%94%E3%81%A8%E3%81%AB%E7%95%B0%E3%81%AA%E3%82%8B%E6%96%B9%E8%A8%80&rft.btitle=Nihon+no+kiki+gengo+%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E3%81%AE%E5%8D%B1%E6%A9%9F%E8%A8%80%E8%AA%9E&rft.date=2011&rft.au=Nishioka+Satoshi+%E8%A5%BF%E5%B2%A1%E6%95%8F&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia+talk%3AWikiProject+Languages%2FArchive+10" class="Z3988"></span></dd></dl></li></ol></li> <li>Phonology <ol><li>Hirayama et al. (1969) <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFHirayama_Teruo_平山輝男,_Ōshima_Ichirō_大島一郎_and_Nakamoto_Masachie_中本正智1969" class="citation book cs1 cs1-prop-foreign-lang-source">Hirayama Teruo 平山輝男, Ōshima Ichirō 大島一郎 and Nakamoto Masachie 中本正智 (1969). "<i>Gengo</i> 言語". In Hirayama Teruo 平山輝男 (ed.). <i><span></span></i>Satsunan shotō no sōgōteki kenkyū<i> 薩南諸島の総合的研究</i> (in Japanese). pp. 235–478.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=bookitem&rft.atitle=Gengo+%E8%A8%80%E8%AA%9E&rft.btitle=Satsunan+shot%C5%8D+no+s%C5%8Dg%C5%8Dteki+kenky%C5%AB+%E8%96%A9%E5%8D%97%E8%AB%B8%E5%B3%B6%E3%81%AE%E7%B7%8F%E5%90%88%E7%9A%84%E7%A0%94%E7%A9%B6&rft.pages=235-478&rft.date=1969&rft.au=Hirayama+Teruo+%E5%B9%B3%E5%B1%B1%E8%BC%9D%E7%94%B7%2C+%C5%8Cshima+Ichir%C5%8D+%E5%A4%A7%E5%B3%B6%E4%B8%80%E9%83%8E+and+Nakamoto+Masachie+%E4%B8%AD%E6%9C%AC%E6%AD%A3%E6%99%BA&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia+talk%3AWikiProject+Languages%2FArchive+10" class="Z3988"></span></dd></dl></li> <li>Hirayama et al. (1986) <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFHirayama_Teruo_平山輝男1986" class="citation book cs1 cs1-prop-foreign-lang-source">Hirayama Teruo 平山輝男, ed. (1986). <i><span></span></i>Amami hōgen kiso goi no kenkyū<i> 奄美方言基礎語彙の研究</i> (in Japanese).</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Amami+h%C5%8Dgen+kiso+goi+no+kenky%C5%AB+%E5%A5%84%E7%BE%8E%E6%96%B9%E8%A8%80%E5%9F%BA%E7%A4%8E%E8%AA%9E%E5%BD%99%E3%81%AE%E7%A0%94%E7%A9%B6&rft.date=1986&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia+talk%3AWikiProject+Languages%2FArchive+10" class="Z3988"></span></dd></dl></li></ol></li> <li>Folk terminology <ol><li>Iwakura (1977)[1941] <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFIwakura_Ichirō_岩倉市郎" class="citation book cs1 cs1-prop-foreign-lang-source">Iwakura Ichirō 岩倉市郎 (1977[1941]). <i><span></span></i>Kikai-jima hōgen-shū<i> 喜界島方言集</i> (in Japanese). p. 119.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Kikai-jima+h%C5%8Dgen-sh%C5%AB+%E5%96%9C%E7%95%8C%E5%B3%B6%E6%96%B9%E8%A8%80%E9%9B%86&rft.pages=119&rft.au=Iwakura+Ichir%C5%8D+%E5%B2%A9%E5%80%89%E5%B8%82%E9%83%8E&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia+talk%3AWikiProject+Languages%2FArchive+10" class="Z3988"></span> <span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment"><code class="cs1-code">{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_book" title="Template:Cite book">cite book</a>}}</code>: </span><span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment">Check date values in: <code class="cs1-code">|year=</code> (<a href="/wiki/Help:CS1_errors#bad_date" title="Help:CS1 errors">help</a>)</span><span class="cs1-maint citation-comment">CS1 maint: year (<a href="/wiki/Category:CS1_maint:_year" title="Category:CS1 maint: year">link</a>)</span></dd></dl></li> <li>Osada et al. (1980) <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFOsada_Suma_長田須磨,_Suyama_Nahoko_須山名保子_and_Fujii_Misako_藤井美佐子1980" class="citation book cs1 cs1-prop-foreign-lang-source">Osada Suma 長田須磨, Suyama Nahoko 須山名保子 and Fujii Misako 藤井美佐子, ed. (1980). <i><span></span></i>Amami hōgen bunrui jiten gekan<i> 奄美方言分類辞典下巻</i> (in Japanese). pp. 387–388.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Amami+h%C5%8Dgen+bunrui+jiten+gekan+%E5%A5%84%E7%BE%8E%E6%96%B9%E8%A8%80%E5%88%86%E9%A1%9E%E8%BE%9E%E5%85%B8+%E4%B8%8B%E5%B7%BB&rft.pages=387-388&rft.date=1980&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia+talk%3AWikiProject+Languages%2FArchive+10" class="Z3988"></span></dd> <dd>partly available online as <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://133.13.160.25/rlang/amm/index.html">Amami Dialect Dictionary</a></dd></dl></li> <li><i>Okinawa Nakijin hōgen jiten</i> (1983) by Nakasone Seizen <dl><dd>partly available online as <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://ryukyu-lang.lib.u-ryukyu.ac.jp/nkjn/index.html">Nakijin Dialect Dictionary</a></dd></dl></li> <li>Ebara (1987) <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFEbara_Yoshimori_恵原義盛1987" class="citation book cs1 cs1-prop-foreign-lang-source">Ebara Yoshimori 恵原義盛 (1987). <i><span></span></i>Amami no hōgen sanpo II<i> 奄美の方言さんぽII</i> (in Japanese). pp. 10–11.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Amami+no+h%C5%8Dgen+sanpo+II+%E5%A5%84%E7%BE%8E%E3%81%AE%E6%96%B9%E8%A8%80%E3%81%95%E3%82%93%E3%81%BDII&rft.pages=10-11&rft.date=1987&rft.au=Ebara+Yoshimori+%E6%81%B5%E5%8E%9F%E7%BE%A9%E7%9B%9B&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia+talk%3AWikiProject+Languages%2FArchive+10" class="Z3988"></span></dd></dl></li> <li>Yamada (1995) <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFYamada_Minoru_山田實1995" class="citation book cs1 cs1-prop-foreign-lang-source">Yamada Minoru 山田實 (1995). <i><span></span></i>Yorontō-go jiten<i> 与論島語辞典</i> (in Japanese).</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Yoront%C5%8D-go+jiten+%E4%B8%8E%E8%AB%96%E5%B3%B6%E8%AA%9E%E8%BE%9E%E5%85%B8&rft.date=1995&rft.au=Yamada+Minoru+%E5%B1%B1%E7%94%B0%E5%AF%A6&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia+talk%3AWikiProject+Languages%2FArchive+10" class="Z3988"></span></dd></dl></li> <li>Kurai (2004) <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFKurai_Norio_倉井則雄2004" class="citation book cs1 cs1-prop-foreign-lang-source">Kurai Norio 倉井則雄 (2004). "<i>Shimayumuta imamukashi</i> シマユムタいまむかし". In Matsumoto Hirotake 松本泰丈 and Tabata Chiaki 田畑千秋 (ed.). <i><span></span></i>Amami fukki 50 nen<i> 奄美復帰50年</i> (in Japanese).</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=bookitem&rft.atitle=Shimayumuta+imamukashi+%E3%82%B7%E3%83%9E%E3%83%A6%E3%83%A0%E3%82%BF%E3%81%84%E3%81%BE%E3%82%80%E3%81%8B%E3%81%97&rft.btitle=Amami+fukki+50+nen+%E5%A5%84%E7%BE%8E%E5%BE%A9%E5%B8%B050%E5%B9%B4&rft.date=2004&rft.au=Kurai+Norio+%E5%80%89%E4%BA%95%E5%89%87%E9%9B%84&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia+talk%3AWikiProject+Languages%2FArchive+10" class="Z3988"></span></dd></dl></li> <li>Kiku and Takahashi (2005) <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFKiku_Chiyo_菊千代_and_Takahashi_Shunzō_高橋俊三205" class="citation book cs1 cs1-prop-foreign-lang-source">Kiku Chiyo 菊千代 and Takahashi Shunzō 高橋俊三 (205). <i><span></span></i>Yoro hōgen jiten<i> 与論方言辞典</i> (in Japanese).</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Yoro+h%C5%8Dgen+jiten+%E4%B8%8E%E8%AB%96%E6%96%B9%E8%A8%80%E8%BE%9E%E5%85%B8&rft.date=205&rft.au=Kiku+Chiyo+%E8%8F%8A%E5%8D%83%E4%BB%A3+and+Takahashi+Shunz%C5%8D+%E9%AB%98%E6%A9%8B%E4%BF%8A%E4%B8%89&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia+talk%3AWikiProject+Languages%2FArchive+10" class="Z3988"></span></dd></dl></li> <li>Takanashi (2006) <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFTakahashi_Takayo_高橋孝代2006" class="citation book cs1 cs1-prop-foreign-lang-source">Takahashi Takayo 高橋孝代 (2006). "<i>Okinoerabu-jima no gaikan</i> 沖永良部島の概観". <i><span></span></i>Kyōkaisei no jinruigaku<i> 境界性の人類学</i> (in Japanese). pp. 65–111.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=bookitem&rft.atitle=Okinoerabu-jima+no+gaikan+%E6%B2%96%E6%B0%B8%E8%89%AF%E9%83%A8%E5%B3%B6%E3%81%AE%E6%A6%82%E8%A6%B3&rft.btitle=Ky%C5%8Dkaisei+no+jinruigaku+%E5%A2%83%E7%95%8C%E6%80%A7%E3%81%AE%E4%BA%BA%E9%A1%9E%E5%AD%A6&rft.pages=65-111&rft.date=2006&rft.au=Takahashi+Takayo+%E9%AB%98%E6%A9%8B%E5%AD%9D%E4%BB%A3&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia+talk%3AWikiProject+Languages%2FArchive+10" class="Z3988"></span></dd></dl></li></ol></li> <li><a href="/wiki/File:Northern_Amami_Oshima_linguistic_sameness.svg" title="File:Northern Amami Oshima linguistic sameness.svg">Linguistic map</a> <ol><li>Shibata et al. (1984) <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFShibata_Takeshi_柴田武,_Sanada_Shinji_真田信治,_Shimono_Masaaki_下野雅昭_and_Sawaki_Motoei_沢木幹栄1984" class="citation book cs1 cs1-prop-foreign-lang-source">Shibata Takeshi 柴田武, Sanada Shinji 真田信治, Shimono Masaaki 下野雅昭 and Sawaki Motoei 沢木幹栄 (1984). <i><span></span></i>Amami Ōshima no kotoba<i> 奄美大島のことば</i> (in Japanese). pp. 53–55.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Amami+%C5%8Cshima+no+kotoba+%E5%A5%84%E7%BE%8E%E5%A4%A7%E5%B3%B6%E3%81%AE%E3%81%93%E3%81%A8%E3%81%B0&rft.pages=53-55&rft.date=1984&rft.au=Shibata+Takeshi+%E6%9F%B4%E7%94%B0%E6%AD%A6%2C+Sanada+Shinji+%E7%9C%9F%E7%94%B0%E4%BF%A1%E6%B2%BB%2C+Shimono+Masaaki+%E4%B8%8B%E9%87%8E%E9%9B%85%E6%98%AD+and+Sawaki+Motoei+%E6%B2%A2%E6%9C%A8%E5%B9%B9%E6%A0%84&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia+talk%3AWikiProject+Languages%2FArchive+10" class="Z3988"></span><span class="cs1-maint citation-comment"><code class="cs1-code">{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_book" title="Template:Cite book">cite book</a>}}</code>: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (<a href="/wiki/Category:CS1_maint:_multiple_names:_authors_list" title="Category:CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list">link</a>)</span></dd></dl></li></ol></li></ul> <p>--<a href="/wiki/User:Nanshu" title="User:Nanshu">Nanshu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nanshu" title="User talk:Nanshu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z-Mass_deletion_of_language_articles_by_Ryulong" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:33, 7 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z-Mass_deletion_of_language_articles_by_Ryulong"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z-Mass_deletion_of_language_articles_by_Ryulong"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-07T12:47:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z"></span>Just because Ethnologue decides to divide up Amami into Amami and Tokunoshima and Kunigami (<b>not Northern Okinawan</b>) into Kunigami, Okinoerabu, and Yoron does not mean that you have a consensus to do that on the English Wikipedia. I challenged your edits. And the first thing you did was call for me to be banned and treat me as an inferior rather than present your argument properly.—<a href="/wiki/User:Ryulong" title="User:Ryulong"><span style="color:blue;">Ryūlóng</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ryulong" title="User talk:Ryulong"><span style="color:gold;">琉竜</span></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Ryulong-2014-10-07T12:47:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:47, 7 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-07T12:47:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ryulong-2014-10-07T12:47:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-07T16:07:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z"></span>And also your sources use "方言" which you know means "dialect".—<a href="/wiki/User:Ryulong" title="User:Ryulong"><span style="color:blue;">Ryūlóng</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ryulong" title="User talk:Ryulong"><span style="color:gold;">琉竜</span></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Ryulong-2014-10-07T16:07:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:07, 7 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-07T16:07:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ryulong-2014-10-07T16:07:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-07T17:54:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-07T16:07:00.000Z"></span>I'm not really inclined to participate in this rather wearisome discussion, as I know nothing about the situation at hand. But directed at Ryulong I'd like to point out that Ethnologue in itself does not decide anything, but bases its classifications on existing primary or secondary sources. I tried to look up the Ryukyu situation there and found that mostly Wurm and Fukuda were cited as sources. I don't know what they are, I hope that both of you know better what these are and what they say. They seem to have come to the conclusion that all the Japonese varieties are separate languages, or Ethnologue would have classified the situation differently. In any case, elsewhere on Wikipedia a separate entry on Ethnologue usually justifies a separate entry in the encyclopaedia. <a href="/wiki/User:Landroving_Linguist" title="User:Landroving Linguist">Landroving Linguist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Landroving_Linguist" title="User talk:Landroving Linguist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-07T17:54:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-07T16:07:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:54, 7 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-07T17:54:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-07T16:07:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-07T17:54:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-07T16:07:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-07T20:04:00.000Z-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-07T17:54:00.000Z"></span>I was just aware of UNESCO's classification, and the current state of <a href="/wiki/Ryukyuan_languages" title="Ryukyuan languages">Ryukyuan languages</a> (which Nanshu has not touched) which classifies the separate languages in Ethnologue as dialects of the closest larger language, because, again as far as I know, each island claims its own language due to the isolation. <a href="/wiki/Yaeyama_language" title="Yaeyama language">Yaeyama language</a> has the <a href="/wiki/Taketomi_Island" title="Taketomi Island">Taketomi Island</a> dialect that gives itself its own name separate from the others. Same goes for everything in the Amami chain. I added something to <a href="/wiki/Ryukyuan_languages" title="Ryukyuan languages">Ryukyuan languages</a> about a "commemorate the island language" day that on Amami Oshima is "Shimayumuta no Hi" (or "shimakutuba no hi"), on Kikaijima is "Shimayumita no hi", on Tokunoshima is "Shimayumiita no Hi" (also "Shimaguchi no hi") which are all similar, but on Okinoerabu is "Shimamuni no hi" and Yoronjima is "Yunnu Futuba no hi"; Kunigami (or as the Ryudai library's dictionary seems to call it the <a href="/wiki/Nakijin" class="mw-redirect" title="Nakijin">Nakijin</a> dialect) also has "futuba" for "kotoba" as seen <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://ryukyu-lang.lib.u-ryukyu.ac.jp/nkjn/jdetails.php?ID=NK74929">here</a> (amongst other variations). I also contested his edits because they contradicted nearly everything else we have on the project on the languages of the Ryukyu chain and he cobbled together sources that explicitly call them dialects to support the separation on Ethnologue and the ISO, while for some reason excluding Kikaijima's dialect/language, amalgamating the Northern and Southern Amami-Oshima dialects/languages into one subject when on ethnologue they are separate, and completely renaming the Kunigami language into the "Northern Okinawan language" for his content forking. Despite Nanshu's constant ad hominem attacks towards me, I would be glad to admit a mistake and have the articles restored if it's clear that the content he cited (most of which appear to be Japanese language books or research papers on dialects) supports separate articles on the three new language pages he made (excluding the "Northern Okinawan" one because that's still a content fork of Kunigami) and his new sub-family page (the Amami-Okinawa one).—<a href="/wiki/User:Ryulong" title="User:Ryulong"><span style="color:blue;">Ryūlóng</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ryulong" title="User talk:Ryulong"><span style="color:gold;">琉竜</span></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Ryulong-2014-10-07T20:04:00.000Z-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-07T17:54:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:04, 7 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-07T20:04:00.000Z-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-07T17:54:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ryulong-2014-10-07T20:04:00.000Z-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-07T17:54:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Ethnologue" title="Ethnologue"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stuartyeates-2014-10-07T20:46:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z"></span>Ethnologue </a> says <i>ethnologue has grown to become the world's most complete and authoritative survey of the world's languages</i> and it's the reliable secondary source to which we defer on smaller languages. It's not an encyclopaedia's place to argue the calls that reliable secondary sources make, except when they are at odds with each other (when we report this disagreement). Following ethnologue is what we need to be doing. <a href="/wiki/User:Stuartyeates" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Stuartyeates">Stuartyeates</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stuartyeates" title="User talk:Stuartyeates">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Stuartyeates-2014-10-07T20:46:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:46, 7 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stuartyeates-2014-10-07T20:46:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stuartyeates-2014-10-07T20:46:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maunus-2014-10-07T21:07:00.000Z-Stuartyeates-2014-10-07T20:46:00.000Z"></span>We don't defer to the Ethnologue if there are better more specialized sources that make a different classification and that classification is more commonly adopted in the literature. Ethnologue frequently have odd and controversial classifications, that are not generally followed in the literature.<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maunus" title="User talk:Maunus">User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Maunus-2014-10-07T21:07:00.000Z-Stuartyeates-2014-10-07T20:46:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:07, 7 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maunus-2014-10-07T21:07:00.000Z-Stuartyeates-2014-10-07T20:46:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maunus-2014-10-07T21:07:00.000Z-Stuartyeates-2014-10-07T20:46:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-08T11:58:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-07T21:07:00.000Z"></span>Agreed. I'm not sure that this is the case in the situation at hand, though. It could also be that there may be a significant discrepancy between Japanese-written articles on Ryukyu languages, which are mostly cited by our two combatants here, and the English-language literature on the matter, which was probably best known to the Ethnologue editors. <a href="/wiki/User:Landroving_Linguist" title="User:Landroving Linguist">Landroving Linguist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Landroving_Linguist" title="User talk:Landroving Linguist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-08T11:58:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-07T21:07:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:58, 8 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-08T11:58:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-07T21:07:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-08T11:58:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-07T21:07:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-08T12:19:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-07T21:07:00.000Z"></span>Hmm, it indeed appears that among English-writing linguists there is a consensus that the Ryukyuan languages are not dialects of each other, but separate languages. DeGruyter (one of the most reliable linguistic publishing houses) is about to publish <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.degruyter.com/view/product/181931">this book</a>, whose entire point it is to establish this fact. Also looking at <a href="/wiki/Ryukyuan_languages" title="Ryukyuan languages">Ryukyuan languages</a> on Wikipedia, it appears that the word <i>dialect</i> has severe political undertones in the history of the relationship between Japanese and the Ryukyuan languages, and that the word was more a tool of sociolinguistic oppression than a description of linguistic facts. Based on all that I would move to stick to separate articles on each Ryukyuan variety. It appears, though, that the DeGruyter publication only recognizes 5 separate languages, not all the languages found in the Ethnologue. So this may be a good example of following Maunus's caveat above. <a href="/wiki/User:Landroving_Linguist" title="User:Landroving Linguist">Landroving Linguist</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Landroving_Linguist" title="User talk:Landroving Linguist">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-08T12:19:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-07T21:07:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:19, 8 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-08T12:19:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-07T21:07:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-08T12:19:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-07T21:07:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-08T14:05:00.000Z-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-08T12:19:00.000Z"></span>The current status on the English Wikipedia and other language Wikipedias (for the most part) is that there are 6 Ryukyuan languages (in order from north to south in the <a href="/wiki/Ryukyu_Islands" title="Ryukyu Islands">Ryukyu Islands</a> chain): <a href="/wiki/Amami_language" class="mw-redirect" title="Amami language">Amami language</a>, <a href="/wiki/Kunigami_language" title="Kunigami language">Kunigami language</a>, <a href="/wiki/Okinawan_language" title="Okinawan language">Okinawan language</a>, <a href="/wiki/Miyako_language" class="mw-redirect" title="Miyako language">Miyako language</a>, <a href="/wiki/Yaeyama_language" title="Yaeyama language">Yaeyama language</a>, <a href="/wiki/Yonaguni_language" title="Yonaguni language">Yonaguni language</a>. Nanshu's edits split up Amami into Amami (North/South) and Tokunoshima and split up Kunigami into "Northern Okinawan" (instead of Kunigami), Okinoerabu, and Yoron. UNESCO classifies Amami as having 4 dialects (Northern, Southern, Tokunoshima, and Kikaijima) and Kunigami 3 dialects (standard Kunigami, Okinoerabu, and Yoron). No other language project has an article dedicated to any of the languages Nanshu created articles for. Yoron is really the only one that stands out (in a Google search), but there are plenty of sources that say it is just a dialect of Kunigami. Ethnologue, being separated in the ISO, and bare listings in oxford's linguistics encyclopdia are all these really have for each other.—<a href="/wiki/User:Ryulong" title="User:Ryulong"><span style="color:blue;">Ryūlóng</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ryulong" title="User talk:Ryulong"><span style="color:gold;">琉竜</span></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Ryulong-2014-10-08T14:05:00.000Z-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-08T12:19:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:05, 8 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-08T14:05:00.000Z-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-08T12:19:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ryulong-2014-10-08T14:05:00.000Z-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-08T12:19:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Io_Katai-2014-10-08T22:20:00.000Z-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-08T12:19:00.000Z"></span>5 languages is currently the most accepted consensus in Ryukyuan linguistics, as the distinction between Central Okinawan and Kunigami (aka Northern Okinawan) is no longer considered notable in recent sources, and Yoron, Okinoerabu and Tokunoshima are considered part of the Amami branch. See, for example, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://lingdy.aacore.jp/jp/material/An_introduction_to_Ryukyuan_languages.pdf">An Introduction to Ryukyuan Languages</a>, which is currently one of the most expansive sources, and whose classification follows <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/44/41/50/PDF/ogami-cpr.pdf">Pellard 2009</a>. That said, whether some of the Ryukyuan variants are dialects, subgroupings or languages of their own right isn't exactly an issue for Wikipedia, as we could still easily create articles on these variants and mention sources that support other classification. This would be the best way to go since none of them besides Okinawan are standardized, so we still end up having to talk about dialects. — <b><a href="/wiki/User:Io_Katai" title="User:Io Katai"><span style="color:#0065C4;">Io</span> <span style="color:#C40000;">Katai</span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Io_Katai" title="User talk:Io Katai"><span style="color:#0065C4;">ᵀᵃˡᵏ</span></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Io_Katai-2014-10-08T22:20:00.000Z-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-08T12:19:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:20, 8 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Io_Katai-2014-10-08T22:20:00.000Z-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-08T12:19:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Io_Katai-2014-10-08T22:20:00.000Z-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-08T12:19:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-08T22:36:00.000Z-Io_Katai-2014-10-08T22:20:00.000Z"></span>The classification in that English one seems to contradict much of what is on Wikipedia and what I've gleaned from other sources. It doesn't appear to be a complete study of the languages, but rather case studies in 6 locales throughout the chain. They don't even touch Yonaguni. <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://ryukyu-lang.lib.u-ryukyu.ac.jp/">Ryudai's e-dictionary</a> at least splits up "Nakijin" (Kunigami) from "Shuri-Naha" (Okinawan).—<a href="/wiki/User:Ryulong" title="User:Ryulong"><span style="color:blue;">Ryūlóng</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ryulong" title="User talk:Ryulong"><span style="color:gold;">琉竜</span></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Ryulong-2014-10-08T22:36:00.000Z-Io_Katai-2014-10-08T22:20:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:36, 8 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-08T22:36:00.000Z-Io_Katai-2014-10-08T22:20:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ryulong-2014-10-08T22:36:00.000Z-Io_Katai-2014-10-08T22:20:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T00:18:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-08T22:36:00.000Z"></span>You have to consult Pellard 2009, which does cover the data for Yonaguni and numerous other areas and explains the methodology. The first document is merely a linguistic introduction to several Ryukyuan variants, but it's backed by reputable Ryukyuan linguists, reiterates the same classification scheme, and represents a precursor to the book <i>Handbook of the Ryukyuan Languages</i>, which also proposes the same 5-language division (assuming that didn't change since the <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.ninjal.ac.jp/Mouton_Handbook/files/members/05_Ryukyuan_languages.pdf">book proposal</a>). As for Ryudai's classification, it doesn't provide any proper comparative data and just inspires itself from a collection of other works, so it shouldn't be considered a direct authoritative source. — <b><a href="/wiki/User:Io_Katai" title="User:Io Katai"><span style="color:#0065C4;">Io</span> <span style="color:#C40000;">Katai</span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Io_Katai" title="User talk:Io Katai"><span style="color:#0065C4;">ᵀᵃˡᵏ</span></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T00:18:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-08T22:36:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:18, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T00:18:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-08T22:36:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T00:18:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-08T22:36:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-09T00:28:00.000Z-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T00:18:00.000Z"></span>I find it odd that Yanbaru Kutuba and Uchinaguchi were melded into one language simply because they're both from the same island. UNESCO's classification seems to still be accurate though.—<a href="/wiki/User:Ryulong" title="User:Ryulong"><span style="color:blue;">Ryūlóng</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ryulong" title="User talk:Ryulong"><span style="color:gold;">琉竜</span></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Ryulong-2014-10-09T00:28:00.000Z-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T00:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:28, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-09T00:28:00.000Z-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T00:18:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ryulong-2014-10-09T00:28:00.000Z-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T00:18:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T23:54:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-09T00:28:00.000Z"></span>It wasn't simply because they're from the same island. The methodology used found that Nakijin, Sesoko and Iejima shared more in common with Shuri than with Yoron. I'd also wager that Okinawa Island is host to a <a href="/wiki/Dialect_continuum" title="Dialect continuum">dialect continuum</a>, where the differences get greater the further the distance between two regions, but we lack data on areas in-between. — <b><a href="/wiki/User:Io_Katai" title="User:Io Katai"><span style="color:#0065C4;">Io</span> <span style="color:#C40000;">Katai</span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Io_Katai" title="User talk:Io Katai"><span style="color:#0065C4;">ᵀᵃˡᵏ</span></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T23:54:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-09T00:28:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:54, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T23:54:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-09T00:28:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T23:54:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-09T00:28:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T01:47:00.000Z-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T00:18:00.000Z"></span>For your information, Pellard's thesis has already been covered by my version but was removed by Ryulong<a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amami%E2%80%93Okinawan_languages&oldid=628465869">[12]</a> I am unsure about the year of publication (2009 or 2010) but this is a minor problem. --<a href="/wiki/User:Nanshu" title="User:Nanshu">Nanshu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nanshu" title="User talk:Nanshu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T01:47:00.000Z-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T00:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:47, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T01:47:00.000Z-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T00:18:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T01:47:00.000Z-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T00:18:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T23:54:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T01:47:00.000Z"></span>Ah, it was 2009. I accidentally used the online publication/upload date. — <b><a href="/wiki/User:Io_Katai" title="User:Io Katai"><span style="color:#0065C4;">Io</span> <span style="color:#C40000;">Katai</span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Io_Katai" title="User talk:Io Katai"><span style="color:#0065C4;">ᵀᵃˡᵏ</span></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T23:54:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T01:47:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:54, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T23:54:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T01:47:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T23:54:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T01:47:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jayen466-2014-10-09T16:41:00.000Z-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-08T12:19:00.000Z"></span>The Oxford University Press International Encyclopedia of Linguistics classifies Toku-No-Shima, Yoron, Oki-No-Erabu and others as <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sl_dDVctycgC&pg=RA1-PA335&dq=yoron+language&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tHUzVI34M4_nare9gaAI&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=yoron%20language&f=false">languages</a>; as does <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFTomoko_Arakaki2013" class="citation book cs1">Tomoko Arakaki (28 June 2013). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://books.google.com/books?id=AzNvGXkcZbsC&pg=PA7"><i>Evidentials in Ryukyuan: the Shuri Variety of Luchuan: A Typological and Theoretical Study of Grammatical Evidentiality</i></a>. BRILL. p. 7. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-90-04-25340-7" title="Special:BookSources/978-90-04-25340-7"><bdi>978-90-04-25340-7</bdi></a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Evidentials+in+Ryukyuan%3A+the+Shuri+Variety+of+Luchuan%3A+A+Typological+and+Theoretical+Study+of+Grammatical+Evidentiality&rft.pages=7&rft.pub=BRILL&rft.date=2013-06-28&rft.isbn=978-90-04-25340-7&rft.au=Tomoko+Arakaki&rft_id=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.com%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DAzNvGXkcZbsC%26pg%3DPA7&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia+talk%3AWikiProject+Languages%2FArchive+10" class="Z3988"></span> The latter source says, <span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-added, #006400);">The contemporary regional varieties of Luchuan can be divided into two large major groups: Northern Ryukyuan, the varieties spoken in the north, and Southern Ryukyuan, the varieties spoken in the south (Uemura 1992). The Northern group is subcategorised into eight kinds of <b>languages</b>, and the Southern group is further subcategorized into three. The Northern varieties consist of Kikai-jima, North Amami Oshima, South Amami Oshima, Tokunoshima, Okinoerabu, Yoron, North Okinawan, and South Okinawan. The Southern varieties are: Miyako, Yaeyana, and Yonaguni (Uemura 1992[2003]; Shimoji & Pellard 2010).</span> That makes eleven Ryukyuan languages. It's quite normal for language classification to be in flux, and for linguists' classifications to disagree with those of politicians; what's amply demonstrated though is that regardless of whether these are languages or dialects, they're notable enough for entries such as those Nanshu has been trying to write. <a href="/wiki/User:Jayen466" title="User:Jayen466">Andreas</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jayen466" title="User talk:Jayen466"><span style="color:#FFBF00;">JN</span></a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jayen466" title="Special:Contributions/Jayen466">466</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Jayen466-2014-10-09T16:41:00.000Z-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-08T12:19:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:41, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jayen466-2014-10-09T16:41:00.000Z-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-08T12:19:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jayen466-2014-10-09T16:41:00.000Z-Landroving_Linguist-2014-10-08T12:19:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T00:48:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-07T21:07:00.000Z"></span>What Landroving Linguist, Io Katai and I showed is that the external sources published in the last decade still disagree with each other. What I am trying to do is to reflect the very fact in articles and they can be improved with additional sources available to us. That's the point. Whether a lect is a language, language variety or dialect doesn't matter here.</dd> <dd>What Ryulong does is the opposite. His position is that UNESCO is the bible and that everything else must be removed from the articles. He is challenging our <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view">NPOV</a> policy.</dd> <dd>Readers would notice that descriptive linguists identify the lects they study with <i>shima</i> or village communities such as Ura, Yuwan and Ōgami. It is because they are aware of the fact that these lects are different from those of neighboring <i>shima</i>. Ryulong is the opposite. He is a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Advocacy" title="Wikipedia:Advocacy">political activist promoting a fiction</a> that there are Standard Amami, Standard Kunigami, etc. He is trying to remove materials that are at odds with his ideological agenda. He would never allow <a href="/wiki/File:Northern_Amami_Oshima_linguistic_sameness.svg" title="File:Northern Amami Oshima linguistic sameness.svg">this linguistic map</a> to be shown in the articles. --<a href="/wiki/User:Nanshu" title="User:Nanshu">Nanshu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nanshu" title="User talk:Nanshu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T00:48:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-07T21:07:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:48, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T00:48:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-07T21:07:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T00:48:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-07T21:07:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-09T00:55:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T00:48:00.000Z"></span>What an absurd accusation. I am not a political activist. I am an expat student who studies oceanography and has an interest in this topic area. I am doing nothing that you accuse me of. This is just getting ridiculous. Because you can't get me banned for daring to disagree with your research, you're trying to discredit me any way you can.—<a href="/wiki/User:Ryulong" title="User:Ryulong"><span style="color:blue;">Ryūlóng</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ryulong" title="User talk:Ryulong"><span style="color:gold;">琉竜</span></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Ryulong-2014-10-09T00:55:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T00:48:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:55, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-09T00:55:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T00:48:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ryulong-2014-10-09T00:55:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T00:48:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T01:47:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-09T00:55:00.000Z"></span>Where can I find your comment that formally acknowledges that <i>removing content with reliable sources</i> was a mistake? Have you formally dropped the "fringe-theory" accusations? Otherwise, we have no choice but to consider your action as NPOV policy violation. --<a href="/wiki/User:Nanshu" title="User:Nanshu">Nanshu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nanshu" title="User talk:Nanshu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T01:47:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-09T00:55:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:47, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T01:47:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-09T00:55:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T01:47:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-09T00:55:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T01:58:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T01:47:00.000Z"></span>Given your increasingly obvious pattern, and your absolute refusal to just <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:STICK" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:STICK">drop the stick</a> and stop <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">pushing</a> for your <i>own version</i> of the grouping of the Ryūkyūan languages, I would almost say that <a href="/wiki/User:Nanshu" title="User:Nanshu">you yourself</a> are violating <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Advocacy" title="Wikipedia:Advocacy">WP:Advocacy</a>. <b><a href="/wiki/User:Sturmgewehr88" title="User:Sturmgewehr88"><span style="background:black"><span style="color:red">ミーラー強斗武</span></span></a></b> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sturmgewehr88" title="User talk:Sturmgewehr88">StG88ぬ会話</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T01:58:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T01:47:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:58, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T01:58:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T01:47:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T01:58:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T01:47:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-07T20:48:00.000Z-Stuartyeates-2014-10-07T20:46:00.000Z"></span>Yet I've pointed out that there are other sources that amalgamate the smaller languages, for which there is very little dedicated coverage, as dialects of geographically proximate and apparently phonemically similar larger languages. Not to mention Nanshu's sources classify them as "dialects" rather than "languages" and the sources constitute very few pages within themselves.—<a href="/wiki/User:Ryulong" title="User:Ryulong"><span style="color:blue;">Ryūlóng</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ryulong" title="User talk:Ryulong"><span style="color:gold;">琉竜</span></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Ryulong-2014-10-07T20:48:00.000Z-Stuartyeates-2014-10-07T20:46:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:48, 7 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-07T20:48:00.000Z-Stuartyeates-2014-10-07T20:46:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ryulong-2014-10-07T20:48:00.000Z-Stuartyeates-2014-10-07T20:46:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tezero-2014-10-08T22:37:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-07T20:48:00.000Z"></span>Agreed. Not only do languages have to prove notability, just like everything else; there's not even going to be much to say about them if there aren't secondary sources for them. See <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Pokemon_test" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Pokemon test">WP:Pokemon test</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Tezero" title="User:Tezero">Tezero</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tezero" title="User talk:Tezero">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Tezero-2014-10-08T22:37:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-07T20:48:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:37, 8 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tezero-2014-10-08T22:37:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-07T20:48:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tezero-2014-10-08T22:37:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-07T20:48:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T01:47:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-10-08T22:37:00.000Z"></span>There is no question in notability unless you challenge the importance of Ethnologue. --<a href="/wiki/User:Nanshu" title="User:Nanshu">Nanshu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nanshu" title="User talk:Nanshu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T01:47:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-10-08T22:37:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:47, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T01:47:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-10-08T22:37:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T01:47:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-10-08T22:37:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tezero-2014-10-09T02:51:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T01:47:00.000Z"></span>Uh, yes, there is. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:N" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:N">WP:N</a> requires <i>significant coverage in multiple secondary sources</i>, not a tiny, perfunctory page by one source. Video games aren't notable if they only have one barely filled-out page by <a href="/wiki/IGN" title="IGN">IGN</a>, even if it is IGN. <a href="/wiki/User:Tezero" title="User:Tezero">Tezero</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tezero" title="User talk:Tezero">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Tezero-2014-10-09T02:51:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T01:47:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:51, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tezero-2014-10-09T02:51:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T01:47:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tezero-2014-10-09T02:51:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T01:47:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-10-09T02:51:00.000Z"></span>I meant Ethnologue alone is authorative enough for notability check. Of course, there are multiple secondary sources, as I listed above. For example, Yoron has two full-scale dictionaries.<a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Yoron_language&oldid=628465926">[13]</a> --<a href="/wiki/User:Nanshu" title="User:Nanshu">Nanshu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nanshu" title="User talk:Nanshu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-10-09T02:51:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:52, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-10-09T02:51:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-10-09T02:51:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maunus-2014-10-09T17:46:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span>No Ethnologue does not show notability, because it does not constitute significant coverage. Being included in Ethnologue, even with an ISO code, does not guarantee notability.<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maunus" title="User talk:Maunus">User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Maunus-2014-10-09T17:46:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:46, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maunus-2014-10-09T17:46:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maunus-2014-10-09T17:46:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maunus-2014-10-09T16:05:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z"></span>Here is my view point: I think that the classification question is not necessarily the best way to decide how many articles to have. Afterall if there is sufficient literature on any given variety then it can have its own article, and many small languages with very little literature about them may not have or require dedicated standalone articles. So basically I would say that the usual and standard way to do this would be to have a mother article on Ryukyuan languages, that describes the classification and has subsections on the main varieties, and for those varieties that have sufficient literature to warrant a stand alone spinout article would have one and those for which there are too little literature to write a decent sized article can be covered in the main article. We dont have to make any general decision about all of the varieties, just do it by editorial decision in each separate case.<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maunus" title="User talk:Maunus">User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Maunus-2014-10-09T16:05:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:05, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maunus-2014-10-09T16:05:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maunus-2014-10-09T16:05:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chuck_Entz-2014-10-10T19:26:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z"></span>I don't know much of anything about the lects in question, so I can't judge the linguistic merit of the articles. Obviously both Nanshu and Ryulong have very low opinions of each other and have no qualms about saying so, and I wish they wouldn't. That said, what either party said, and their motivations, is of interest, but not important here. As I see it, it all boils down to process: how do you deal with articles that you believe shouldn't exist? It doesn't matter who wrote the article or what their motivation was- unless there's some urgency due to great immediate harm caused by the articles, deletion should follow the normal process. The one deleted version I looked at in the history said the lect was a dialect cluster and there was difference of opinion as to whether it was a language or not. That doesn't seem like something so massively deceptive it has to be deleted immediately. This should be hashed out through the normal process, not by mass deletion of content and by edit-warring. <a href="/wiki/User:Chuck_Entz" title="User:Chuck Entz">Chuck Entz</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chuck_Entz" title="User talk:Chuck Entz">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Chuck_Entz-2014-10-10T19:26:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:26, 10 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chuck_Entz-2014-10-10T19:26:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chuck_Entz-2014-10-10T19:26:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-07T11:33:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-10T19:34:00.000Z-Chuck_Entz-2014-10-10T19:26:00.000Z"></span>It's not "Mass deletion". I turned everything into redirects because Nanshu made up a new classification scheme and then split up several articles and completely renamed a language in order to fit his scheme. None of his sources refer to anything as "language" unless they're the tiny single sentence entries in Oxford or Ethnologue.—<a href="/wiki/User:Ryulong" title="User:Ryulong"><span style="color:blue;">Ryūlóng</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ryulong" title="User talk:Ryulong"><span style="color:gold;">琉竜</span></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Ryulong-2014-10-10T19:34:00.000Z-Chuck_Entz-2014-10-10T19:26:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:34, 10 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-10T19:34:00.000Z-Chuck_Entz-2014-10-10T19:26:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ryulong-2014-10-10T19:34:00.000Z-Chuck_Entz-2014-10-10T19:26:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Straw_polls" data-mw-thread-id="h-Straw_polls-Mass_deletion_of_language_articles_by_Ryulong-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Straw_polls-Mass_deletion_of_language_articles_by_Ryulong-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span>Straw polls<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Straw_polls-Mass_deletion_of_language_articles_by_Ryulong-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span></h3></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-Straw_polls"></span>Ryulong made an astonishing assertion in the ANI: "There is also a growing consensus at WT:LANG that supports my actions"<a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=628798619&oldid=628796978">[14]</a>. So let me check whether his assertion is true. </p><p><b>Question 1</b>: Do you support Ryulong's opinion that we shouldn't have articles of their own for Tokunoshima, Okinoerabu, etc? </p> <dl><dd><i>Add *<b>Support</b> or *<b>Oppose</b> followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with </i>~~~~</dd></dl> <ul><li><b>Oppose</b> --<a href="/wiki/User:Nanshu" title="User:Nanshu">Nanshu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nanshu" title="User talk:Nanshu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-Straw_polls" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:52, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-Straw_polls"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-Straw_polls"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T15:01:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span>Support</b> - <b><a href="/wiki/User:Sturmgewehr88" title="User:Sturmgewehr88"><span style="background:black"><span style="color:red">ミーラー強斗武</span></span></a></b> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sturmgewehr88" title="User talk:Sturmgewehr88">StG88ぬ会話</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T15:01:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:01, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T15:01:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T15:01:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jayen466-2014-10-09T15:48:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span>Oppose</b> There are sufficient sources to write these articles. The very fact that some sources classify them as (mutually unintelligible) dialects while others describe them as separate languages (note that scientific/linguistic and political classifications often differ) can be brought out in these articles, along with descriptions of their phonology, prevalence, relationships etc. <a href="/wiki/User:Jayen466" title="User:Jayen466">Andreas</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jayen466" title="User talk:Jayen466"><span style="color:#FFBF00;">JN</span></a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jayen466" title="Special:Contributions/Jayen466">466</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Jayen466-2014-10-09T15:48:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:48, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jayen466-2014-10-09T15:48:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jayen466-2014-10-09T15:48:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tezero-2014-10-09T15:59:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span>Support</b>; having a lot that can be written about a language or dialect (which is not necessarily the case with these) does not constitute notability. For now, they haven't demonstrated <i>significant coverage</i> (ideally, full-length articles all about them) in <i>multiple secondary sources</i>. There's no reason to draw an exception just because they're languages. Do I agree with this? No, I think notability is stupid, at least in its current state, but it's the rules. <a href="/wiki/User:Tezero" title="User:Tezero">Tezero</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tezero" title="User talk:Tezero">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Tezero-2014-10-09T15:59:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:59, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tezero-2014-10-09T15:59:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tezero-2014-10-09T15:59:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jayen466-2014-10-09T17:04:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-10-09T15:59:00.000Z"></span>Well, <a href="/wiki/User:Tezero" title="User:Tezero">User:Tezero</a>, that pre-judges the issue, as you don't seem to know how much secondary-source coverage there is for each of these languages or dialects. Hence the idea to let Nanshu write them, and then subject them to an AfD once it's clear how much coverage there is (in English, French, Japanese etc. sources). I've certainly seen sources covering some of these languages/dialects <i>in detail</i>. We could of course ask Nanshu to list available sources for each proposed article somewhere here on this page, but that's a rather un-Wikipedian way of proceeding. Normally, Wikipedia encourages people to be bold, and if notability seems lacking, to nominate the relevant articles for deletion, which brings more eyes onto the issue. If in any individual case a standalone article is not justified, content can still be merged, but it seems not in line with project goals and customs to tell people that they should not create content if there are sources available. <a href="/wiki/User:Jayen466" title="User:Jayen466">Andreas</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jayen466" title="User talk:Jayen466"><span style="color:#FFBF00;">JN</span></a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jayen466" title="Special:Contributions/Jayen466">466</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Jayen466-2014-10-09T17:04:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-10-09T15:59:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:04, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jayen466-2014-10-09T17:04:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-10-09T15:59:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jayen466-2014-10-09T17:04:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-10-09T15:59:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maunus-2014-10-09T16:12:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span>Comment</b>. Depends on the amount of literature for each separate case.<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maunus" title="User talk:Maunus">User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Maunus-2014-10-09T16:12:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:12, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maunus-2014-10-09T16:12:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maunus-2014-10-09T16:12:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-G_Purevdorj-2014-10-09T18:54:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span>Weak oppose</b> I went through the discussion and my impression is the following: there is some lack of consensus in the cited literature, and this should be reflected in the articles. The “Classification and varieties” section in the article on Ryukyuan is not at all informative to an interested reader. Having articles for many sub-varieties (be they called “language” or “dialect”, a distinction not soundly establishable by linguistic means anyway and definitely politicized within Japan) is not a problem as long as they somehow confirm to the standard classification scheme applied on Wikipedia. Even if the existence of multiple small articles might not ultimately be the most helpful way of representing the information in question, simply reverting what seems to be useful information (if taxonomically appropriate or not) doesn’t improve the informativity of WP and thus seems to be an inappropriate measure. Either at least some smaller articles should continue to exist, or the larger ones should receive some of the information formerly present in the smaller ones. (I would wish that Nanshu and Ryulong started a discussion based on lingustic details. Neither has done so so far, but Nanshu is at least suggesting sources, while Ryulong is not really taking this up.) <a href="/wiki/User:G_Purevdorj" title="User:G Purevdorj">G Purevdorj</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:G_Purevdorj" title="User talk:G Purevdorj">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-G_Purevdorj-2014-10-09T18:54:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:54, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-G_Purevdorj-2014-10-09T18:54:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-G_Purevdorj-2014-10-09T18:54:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-09T19:37:00.000Z-G_Purevdorj-2014-10-09T18:54:00.000Z"></span>Nanshu's sources are minimal in content, define everything as dialects, and there is no (as far as I can tell) academic consensus that the critically endangered languages spoken by the elderly residents of Tokunoshima, Yoron, and Okinoerabu are unique languages, nor is there any evidence that the language spoken in northern Okinawa is "Northern Okinawan" considering it's been called "Kunigami" in the very sources (Ethnologue and the ISO) that Nanshu has been using to support the splits.—<a href="/wiki/User:Ryulong" title="User:Ryulong"><span style="color:blue;">Ryūlóng</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ryulong" title="User talk:Ryulong"><span style="color:gold;">琉竜</span></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Ryulong-2014-10-09T19:37:00.000Z-G_Purevdorj-2014-10-09T18:54:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:37, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-09T19:37:00.000Z-G_Purevdorj-2014-10-09T18:54:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ryulong-2014-10-09T19:37:00.000Z-G_Purevdorj-2014-10-09T18:54:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T23:24:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span>Oppose</b>. It would be like asking if I would oppose the creation of the articles <a href="/wiki/Canadian_English" title="Canadian English">Canadian English</a> or <a href="/wiki/Kansai_dialect" title="Kansai dialect">Kansai dialect</a>. Whether certain Ryukyuan variants are considered dialects or languages is irrelevant – if there's enough material to create articles on them, I see no problem. However, the articles should adopt the most accepted and conservative classification names in the titles (in English literature). Thus, "Okinoerabu dialect(s)" would have been preferable over "Okinoerabu language", but the latter name could have been mentioned as an alternative in the lead. Or we could have made use of a purely neutral name like "Okinoerabu Ryukyuan" to appease all parties. — <b><a href="/wiki/User:Io_Katai" title="User:Io Katai"><span style="color:#0065C4;">Io</span> <span style="color:#C40000;">Katai</span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Io_Katai" title="User talk:Io Katai"><span style="color:#0065C4;">ᵀᵃˡᵏ</span></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T23:24:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:24, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T23:24:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T23:24:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-NE_Ent-2014-10-10T02:08:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span>Oppose</b> On procedural grounds, if the topics are not worthy of an article, the proper repose is a community <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:AFD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:AFD">WP:AFD</a> not a unilateral deletion by redirect. <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:NE_Ent" title="User talk:NE Ent">NE Ent</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-NE_Ent-2014-10-10T02:08:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:08, 10 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-NE_Ent-2014-10-10T02:08:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-NE_Ent-2014-10-10T02:08:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <p><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-Straw_polls-1"></span>Question 2</b>: Do you support Ryulong's opinion that materials added by Nanshu should be removed? </p> <dl><dd><i>Add *<b>Support</b> or *<b>Oppose</b> followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with </i>~~~~</dd></dl> <ul><li><b>Oppose</b> --<a href="/wiki/User:Nanshu" title="User:Nanshu">Nanshu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nanshu" title="User talk:Nanshu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-Straw_polls-1" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:52, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-Straw_polls-1"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-Straw_polls-1"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T15:01:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-1"></span>Comment</b> - that's a very broad statement there. It reads more like this is a personal feud and that Ryulong removed the material just because you added it, which is wrong. This falls within violating <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Gaming_the_system" title="Wikipedia:Gaming the system">WP:Gaming the system</a>, as you know that such a broad statement will receive a consistent !oppose. Either revise, replace, or erase this question. <b><a href="/wiki/User:Sturmgewehr88" title="User:Sturmgewehr88"><span style="background:black"><span style="color:red">ミーラー強斗武</span></span></a></b> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sturmgewehr88" title="User talk:Sturmgewehr88">StG88ぬ会話</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T15:01:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-1" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:01, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T15:01:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-1"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T15:01:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-1"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T15:15:00.000Z-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T15:01:00.000Z"></span>No. This question directly corresponds to Ryulong's assertion. Ryulong claims supports for his actions. So what did he do? He completely removed materials I added. So it's perfectly reasonable to ask whether you support Ryulong's opinion that materials added by Nanshu should be removed? --<a href="/wiki/User:Nanshu" title="User:Nanshu">Nanshu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nanshu" title="User talk:Nanshu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T15:15:00.000Z-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T15:01:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:15, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T15:15:00.000Z-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T15:01:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nanshu-2014-10-09T15:15:00.000Z-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T15:01:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T19:17:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T15:15:00.000Z"></span>He didn't revert you because <i>you</i> added the material, he reverted you because of <i>what</i> you added. So this question is absolutely irrelevant and unreasonable. <b><a href="/wiki/User:Sturmgewehr88" title="User:Sturmgewehr88"><span style="background:black"><span style="color:red">ミーラー強斗武</span></span></a></b> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sturmgewehr88" title="User talk:Sturmgewehr88">StG88ぬ会話</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T19:17:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T15:15:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:17, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T19:17:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T15:15:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T19:17:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T15:15:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jayen466-2014-10-09T15:48:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-1"></span>Oppose</b> As suggested at AN/I, the best way forward seems to be to let Nanshu write these articles and then submit them to an AfD if there is still any doubt as to notability. <a href="/wiki/User:Jayen466" title="User:Jayen466">Andreas</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jayen466" title="User talk:Jayen466"><span style="color:#FFBF00;">JN</span></a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jayen466" title="Special:Contributions/Jayen466">466</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Jayen466-2014-10-09T15:48:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-1" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:48, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jayen466-2014-10-09T15:48:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-1"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jayen466-2014-10-09T15:48:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-1"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maunus-2014-10-09T16:12:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-1"></span>Oppose</b> Per Andreas. If there is sufficient literature to write a separate article they can have their articles.<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maunus" title="User talk:Maunus">User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Maunus-2014-10-09T16:12:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-1" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:12, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maunus-2014-10-09T16:12:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-1"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maunus-2014-10-09T16:12:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-1"></span></li> <li><s><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tezero-2014-10-09T16:26:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span>Strong oppose</b>. Regardless of the content added, it has to violate some policy or another to remove/revert content purely because of who added it. <a href="/wiki/User:Tezero" title="User:Tezero">Tezero</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tezero" title="User talk:Tezero">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Tezero-2014-10-09T16:26:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:26, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a></s><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tezero-2014-10-09T16:26:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tezero-2014-10-09T16:26:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T19:17:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-10-09T16:26:00.000Z"></span>This is what I meant in my above comment. Ryulong <i>did not</i> redirect the articles simply because Nanshu made them, he did it because the articles create a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:FORK" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:FORK">content fork</a> and are based on a fringe theory and his <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR">own personal research</a>. This question is worded in a very <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:GAME" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:GAME">gamey</a> manner. <b><a href="/wiki/User:Sturmgewehr88" title="User:Sturmgewehr88"><span style="background:black"><span style="color:red">ミーラー強斗武</span></span></a></b> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sturmgewehr88" title="User talk:Sturmgewehr88">StG88ぬ会話</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T19:17:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-10-09T16:26:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:17, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T19:17:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-10-09T16:26:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T19:17:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-10-09T16:26:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tezero-2014-10-09T19:53:00.000Z-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T19:17:00.000Z"></span>Oh. Well, then I'm uncomfortably <b>neutral</b> in the whole matter. <a href="/wiki/User:Tezero" title="User:Tezero">Tezero</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tezero" title="User talk:Tezero">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Tezero-2014-10-09T19:53:00.000Z-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T19:17:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:53, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tezero-2014-10-09T19:53:00.000Z-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T19:17:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tezero-2014-10-09T19:53:00.000Z-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-09T19:17:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T23:24:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-1"></span>Comment</b>. This is too broad of a question since Nanshu's edits covered a lot of different things. After reviewing some of the edits (not all), I thought it was interesting to read about some of the differing views on the subject of language classification and he did provide references. However, of what I read, it did stand out that some parts of what was written lacked a neutral tone and other parts were fairly confusing to read as they lacked direction. Though, this could have been solved with some copy editing and clarification. — <b><a href="/wiki/User:Io_Katai" title="User:Io Katai"><span style="color:#0065C4;">Io</span> <span style="color:#C40000;">Katai</span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Io_Katai" title="User talk:Io Katai"><span style="color:#0065C4;">ᵀᵃˡᵏ</span></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T23:24:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-1" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:24, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T23:24:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-1"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Io_Katai-2014-10-09T23:24:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-09T14:52:00.000Z-1"></span></li></ul> <p><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTDEM" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NOTDEM"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-09T17:20:00.000Z-Straw_polls"></span>WP:NOTDEM</a>. Straw polls should not stand in for proper discussion. This is ridiculous. Nanshu, just accept that your articles weren't up to par and your bold edit got reverted. Stop making this all about yourself and your "feud" with me. There are little to no sources supporting the existence or separate coverage of Tokunoshima from Amami, Okinoerabu and Yoron from Kunigami, or renaming Kunigami to "Northern Okinawan". You took 7 written pages per subject each and spun that out into lengthy articles that feature IPA tables that I cannot for the life of me figure out are even supported by some of the cited sources. Stop forum sohpping. Stop canvassing people to support you.—<a href="/wiki/User:Ryulong" title="User:Ryulong"><span style="color:blue;">Ryūlóng</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ryulong" title="User talk:Ryulong"><span style="color:gold;">琉竜</span></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Ryulong-2014-10-09T17:20:00.000Z-Straw_polls" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:20, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-09T17:20:00.000Z-Straw_polls"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ryulong-2014-10-09T17:20:00.000Z-Straw_polls"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maunus-2014-10-09T19:39:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-09T17:20:00.000Z"></span>Straw polls are useful for gauging consensus - and since you made a claim about emerging consensus it seems reasonable to poll. The accusation of canvassing seems to be lacking some evidence.<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maunus" title="User talk:Maunus">User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Maunus-2014-10-09T19:39:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-09T17:20:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:39, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maunus-2014-10-09T19:39:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-09T17:20:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maunus-2014-10-09T19:39:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-09T17:20:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:G_Purevdorj&diff=628933069&oldid=628377137"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-09T20:33:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-09T19:39:00.000Z"></span>Evidence</a>.—<a href="/wiki/User:Ryulong" title="User:Ryulong"><span style="color:blue;">Ryūlóng</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ryulong" title="User talk:Ryulong"><span style="color:gold;">琉竜</span></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Ryulong-2014-10-09T20:33:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-09T19:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:33, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-09T20:33:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-09T19:39:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ryulong-2014-10-09T20:33:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-09T19:39:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maunus-2014-10-09T21:20:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-09T20:33:00.000Z"></span>That does seem like a potentially problematic use of private messages for discussions, but on the other hand Purevdorj is a respected editor on langauge topics with no a priori interests in this particular topic. But if Nanshu did this selectively or on a large scale that does seem problematic.<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maunus" title="User talk:Maunus">User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Maunus-2014-10-09T21:20:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-09T20:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:20, 9 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maunus-2014-10-09T21:20:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-09T20:33:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maunus-2014-10-09T21:20:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-09T20:33:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-10T01:10:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-09T21:20:00.000Z"></span>I invited Purevdorj to this dicsussion because (1) he got involved<a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Okinawan_languages&diff=628821492&oldid=628818058">[15]</a> and (2) I believe there need more eyeballs. I've never requested support for me. --<a href="/wiki/User:Nanshu" title="User:Nanshu">Nanshu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nanshu" title="User talk:Nanshu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Nanshu-2014-10-10T01:10:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-09T21:20:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:10, 10 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-10T01:10:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-09T21:20:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nanshu-2014-10-10T01:10:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-09T21:20:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><br/><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-10T01:10:00.000Z-Straw_polls"></span> Well, thank you for your participation. It's now clear that no one supports his mass removal of content with reliables sources is not supported. The remaining question is how to organize the content. Now I restored content removed by Ryulong. You may <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_policy" title="Wikipedia:Deletion policy">propose deletion</a> per an ANI suggestion, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_moves" title="Wikipedia:Requested moves">request moves</a> if you disagree with page titles I chose, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard" title="Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard">question reliability of sources</a> I cited, and of course, you can edit them. All these things can be done <i>without mass-removing content with reliable sources</i>. Follow Wikipedia's standardized procedures. --<a href="/wiki/User:Nanshu" title="User:Nanshu">Nanshu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nanshu" title="User talk:Nanshu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Nanshu-2014-10-10T01:10:00.000Z-Straw_polls" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:10, 10 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-10T01:10:00.000Z-Straw_polls"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nanshu-2014-10-10T01:10:00.000Z-Straw_polls"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-10T06:13:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-10T01:10:00.000Z"></span>This is not a representative example of anything. You can't ask such a broad question against me and then restore every article to the way you and only you think is best. I am not going to sit through half a dozen AFDs because you think you're intellectually superior to me.—<a href="/wiki/User:Ryulong" title="User:Ryulong"><span style="color:blue;">Ryūlóng</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ryulong" title="User talk:Ryulong"><span style="color:gold;">琉竜</span></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Ryulong-2014-10-10T06:13:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-10T01:10:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:13, 10 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-10T06:13:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-10T01:10:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ryulong-2014-10-10T06:13:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-10T01:10:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maunus-2014-10-10T14:01:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-10T06:13:00.000Z"></span>I think this clearly will have to follow the standard AfD procedure, which has nothing to do with anyones intellectual qualities, but you are of course free to decine to participate.<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maunus" title="User talk:Maunus">User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Maunus-2014-10-10T14:01:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-10T06:13:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:01, 10 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maunus-2014-10-10T14:01:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-10T06:13:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maunus-2014-10-10T14:01:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-10T06:13:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-10T14:08:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-10T14:01:00.000Z"></span>The issue is that Nanshu has consistently acted as a holier-than-thou intellectual and hierarchical superior to me in every single discussion I've had with him over these matters. He has been warned in teh past not to act this way but the fact that he barely ever edits unless there's some dispute he's created results in no useful punishment.—<a href="/wiki/User:Ryulong" title="User:Ryulong"><span style="color:blue;">Ryūlóng</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ryulong" title="User talk:Ryulong"><span style="color:gold;">琉竜</span></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Ryulong-2014-10-10T14:08:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-10T14:01:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:08, 10 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-10T14:08:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-10T14:01:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ryulong-2014-10-10T14:08:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-10T14:01:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maunus-2014-10-10T16:12:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-10T14:08:00.000Z"></span>But that is a conduct problem not a content problem. You cant "punish" someone for bad conduct by deleting their content. Usually when I run into people whose behaviors I find insufferable I just leave those articles and let them work on it. Cause honestly there is not that much one can do unless they start saying cuss words.<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maunus" title="User talk:Maunus">User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Maunus-2014-10-10T16:12:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-10T14:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:12, 10 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maunus-2014-10-10T16:12:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-10T14:08:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maunus-2014-10-10T16:12:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-10T14:08:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-10T19:14:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-10T16:12:00.000Z"></span>His conduct and content are separate. But because Id ared to contest his massive and undiscussed changes that contradict most sources out there and what's already on Wikipedia, he turns venomous on me.—<a href="/wiki/User:Ryulong" title="User:Ryulong"><span style="color:blue;">Ryūlóng</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ryulong" title="User talk:Ryulong"><span style="color:gold;">琉竜</span></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Ryulong-2014-10-10T19:14:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-10T16:12:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:14, 10 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-10T19:14:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-10T16:12:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ryulong-2014-10-10T19:14:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-10T16:12:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jayen466-2014-10-10T15:54:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-10T06:13:00.000Z"></span>I thought restoring every article is exactly what Nanshu should do, perhaps with a template saying it's a work in progress, and adding any other sources available that demonstrate notability. That's what <a href="/wiki/User:Rdfox_76" title="User:Rdfox 76">Rdfox 76</a> suggested at ANI, and you actually agreed to. <a href="/wiki/User:Jayen466" title="User:Jayen466">Andreas</a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jayen466" title="User talk:Jayen466"><span style="color:#FFBF00;">JN</span></a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jayen466" title="Special:Contributions/Jayen466">466</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Jayen466-2014-10-10T15:54:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-10T06:13:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:54, 10 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jayen466-2014-10-10T15:54:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-10T06:13:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jayen466-2014-10-10T15:54:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-10T06:13:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-15T13:24:00.000Z-Jayen466-2014-10-10T15:54:00.000Z"></span>Temporally added the {{Relevant discussion}} template to the talk pages as I cannot find a more appropriate one. Could you help me if Ryulong continues disruptive editing. He behaves as if he has a right to ignore the consensus as long as he expresses some kind of displeasure. --<a href="/wiki/User:Nanshu" title="User:Nanshu">Nanshu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nanshu" title="User talk:Nanshu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Nanshu-2014-10-15T13:24:00.000Z-Jayen466-2014-10-10T15:54:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:24, 15 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-15T13:24:00.000Z-Jayen466-2014-10-10T15:54:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nanshu-2014-10-15T13:24:00.000Z-Jayen466-2014-10-10T15:54:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Reorganization?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Reorganization?-Mass_deletion_of_language_articles_by_Ryulong-2014-10-10T01:10:00.000Z"><span id="Reorganization.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Reorganization?-Mass_deletion_of_language_articles_by_Ryulong-2014-10-10T01:10:00.000Z"></span>Reorganization?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Reorganization?-Mass_deletion_of_language_articles_by_Ryulong-2014-10-10T01:10:00.000Z"></span></h3></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-10T01:10:00.000Z-Reorganization?"></span>There seem implicit merge proposals in this discussion. For a constructive discussion, I request for a <i>concrete</i> alternative. </p><p>The following is my understanding of the current situation, which I outlined in <a href="/wiki/Amami%E2%80%93Okinawan_languages" class="mw-redirect" title="Amami–Okinawan languages">Amami–Okinawan languages</a>. There are two <i>consensus</i> trees (supported by multiple sources, I mean). I assign a unique number to each entity because terminology is far from standardized. <b>[CONFLICT]</b> indicates that the entity is not supported by the other hypothesis. Underlined are the languages with articles of their own in Nanshu's proposal. </p><p>1. Two-subdivision hypothesis (relatively old but recently reevaluated by Pellard (2010)) </p> <ul><li>0 <u>Ryukyuan</u> <ul><li>00 <u>Amami–Okinawan / Northern Ryukyuan</u> <ul><li>000 <b>[CONFLICT]</b> <u>Amami</u> <ul><li>0000 <u>Northern Amami / Amami</u> <ul><li>00000 Amami Ōshima ? (this intermediate node may be unnecessary) <ul><li>000000 Northern Amami Ōshima</li> <li>000001 Southern Amami Ōshima</li></ul></li> <li>00001 <u>Tokunoshima</u></li> <li>00002 Kikai ? (membership remains disputed)</li></ul></li> <li>0001 <b>[CONFLICT]</b> Southern Amami <ul><li>00010 <u>Okinoerabu</u> <ul><li>000100 Eastern Okinoerabu</li> <li>000101 Western Okinoerabu</li></ul></li> <li>00011 <u>Yoron</u></li></ul></li></ul></li> <li>001 <b>[CONFLICT]</b> <u>Okinawan</u> <ul><li>0010 <u>Northern Okinawan / Kunigami</u></li> <li>0011 <u>Southern Okinawan / South–Central Okinawan / Central Okinawan / Okinawan</u></li></ul></li></ul></li></ul></li></ul> <p>2. Three-subdivision hypothesis (relatively new but now challenged by Pellard (2010)) </p> <ul><li>0 <u>Ryukyuan</u> <ul><li>00 <u>Amami–Okinawan / Northern Ryukyuan</u> <ul><li>0000 <u>Northern Amami / Amami</u> <ul><li><ul><li>00000 Amami Ōshima ? (this intermediate node may be unnecessary) <ul><li>000000 Northern Amami Ōshima</li> <li>000001 Southern Amami Ōshima</li></ul></li> <li>00001 <u>Tokunoshima</u></li> <li>00002 Kikai ? (membership remains disputed)</li></ul></li></ul></li> <li>002 <b>[CONFLICT]</b> <u>Okinoerabu–Northern Okinawan / Okinoerabu–Yoron–Northern Okinawan / Kunigami</u> <ul><li>00010 <u>Okinoerabu</u> <ul><li>000100 Eastern Okinoerabu</li> <li>000101 Western Okinoerabu</li> <li>00011 <u>Yoron</u></li></ul></li> <li>0010 <u>Northern Okinawan / Kunigami</u></li></ul></li> <li>0011 <u>Southern Okinawan / South–Central Okinawan / Central Okinawan / Okinawan</u></li></ul></li></ul></li></ul> <p>Note the positions of Okinoerabu and Yoron. Their lowest common ancestor among the two hypotheses is 00 <u>Amami–Okinawan / Northern Ryukyuan</u>. I think having separate articles for them is a much easier way to organize information than placing everything into the higher entity. </p><p>BTW, I'm a bit surprised by the fact that <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://lingdy.aacore.jp/jp/material/An_introduction_to_Ryukyuan_languages.pdf">Pellard (2010) is supported by others</a>. Is it only because he is one of two editors of the new book? I thought computational phylogenetics was extremely unpopular among linguists. --<a href="/wiki/User:Nanshu" title="User:Nanshu">Nanshu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nanshu" title="User talk:Nanshu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Nanshu-2014-10-10T01:10:00.000Z-Reorganization?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:10, 10 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-10T01:10:00.000Z-Reorganization?"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nanshu-2014-10-10T01:10:00.000Z-Reorganization?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maunus-2014-10-10T03:14:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-10T01:10:00.000Z"></span>I have no idea what your numbering system means, or how to read the table above. The support and enthusiasm for computational phylogenetics is growing very fast among historical linguists. The initial attempts by non-linguists have been vbery unpopular, but I think most lingiusts recognize that the methods are useful when combined with an understanding of linguistics. Several former critics have recently published papers where they use the computational/statistical methods. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maunus" title="User talk:Maunus">User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Maunus-2014-10-10T03:14:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-10T01:10:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:14, 10 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maunus-2014-10-10T03:14:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-10T01:10:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maunus-2014-10-10T03:14:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-10T01:10:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-11T17:29:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-10T03:14:00.000Z"></span>Non-linguists. You mean Atkinson's group? Anyway, we need to give more weight to Pellard (2010) in the article.</dd> <dd>The two trees above show (1) all entities that <i>potentially</i> have their own articles and (2) those that currently have (underscored). When considering merger, they are useful for specifying the <i>source</i> and the <i>destination</i> because the destination of merger is usually an ancestor of the source in a tree-like classification. I assigned a unique number to each entity for disambiguation just because labels like Amami, Okinawan and Kunigami have multiple referents. Never mind.</dd> <dd>When considering merger, we usually traverse a tree from top to bottom and decide where to stop (creating separate articles). But I would like to emphasize that this strategy does not work well in our situation because intermediate nodes (entities) like 001 <u>Okinawan</u> are fragile (their existence is challenged) while higher and lower nodes like 00010 <u>Okinoerabu</u> are stable. I do think lower nodes like 00010 <u>Okinoerabu</u> have potential for future development. They are the best places to describe phonology, syntax, etc. Meanwhile, all we have to explain regarding intermediate nodes (entities) like 001 <u>Okinawan</u> is classification. So I do not strongly object to the following mergers: <ol><li>000 <u>Amami</u> -> 00 <u>Amami–Okinawan / Northern Ryukyuan</u></li> <li>001 <u>Okinawan</u> -> 00 <u>Amami–Okinawan / Northern Ryukyuan</u></li> <li>002 <u>Okinoerabu–Northern Okinawan / Okinoerabu–Yoron–Northern Okinawan / Kunigami</u> -> 00 <u>Amami–Okinawan / Northern Ryukyuan</u></li></ol></dd> <dd>I'm aware that the first thing to do is to recover from Ryulong's total destruction, but I don't have enough time to do that this weakend. --<a href="/wiki/User:Nanshu" title="User:Nanshu">Nanshu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nanshu" title="User talk:Nanshu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Nanshu-2014-10-11T17:29:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-10T03:14:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:29, 11 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-11T17:29:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-10T03:14:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nanshu-2014-10-11T17:29:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-10T03:14:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-11T17:50:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-11T17:29:00.000Z"></span>Let me get this straight, so you're now proposing that we <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:MERGE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:MERGE">merge</a> <a href="/wiki/Amami_language" class="mw-redirect" title="Amami language">Amami language</a>, <a href="/wiki/Okinawan_languages" class="mw-redirect" title="Okinawan languages">Okinawan languages</a>/<a href="/wiki/Okinawan_language" title="Okinawan language">Okinawan language</a>, <a href="/wiki/Okinoerabu_language" class="mw-redirect" title="Okinoerabu language">Okinoerabu language</a>, <a href="/wiki/Yoron_language" title="Yoron language">Yoron language</a>, "<a href="/wiki/Northern_Okinawan_language" class="mw-redirect" title="Northern Okinawan language">Northern Okinawan language</a>", <i><b>and</b></i> <a href="/wiki/Kunigami_language" title="Kunigami language">Kunigami language</a> into the <a href="/wiki/Amami%E2%80%93Okinawan_languages" class="mw-redirect" title="Amami–Okinawan languages">Amami–Okinawan languages</a> article you wrote? If so, I reject and <b>totally oppose</b> your proposed merger. <b><a href="/wiki/User:Sturmgewehr88" title="User:Sturmgewehr88"><span style="background:black"><span style="color:red">ミーラー強斗武</span></span></a></b> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sturmgewehr88" title="User talk:Sturmgewehr88">StG88ぬ会話</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-11T17:50:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-11T17:29:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:50, 11 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-11T17:50:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-11T17:29:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-11T17:50:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-11T17:29:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Io_Katai-2014-10-14T02:30:00.000Z-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-11T17:50:00.000Z"></span>I think he was implying that low-language-node articles like "Okinawan language", "Yoron (dialect)" and so on deserve their own articles, but that mid-node articles like "Amami languages" and "Okinawan languages" would be better described in the upper-node article for "Northern Ryukyuan" (aka Amami-Okinawan languages). The reasoning being that it would allow us to avoid the battle between the mid-tier classifications of Amami/Okinawan languages (cf. Pellard et al.) versus Amami/Kunigami/Okinawan languages (cf. UNESCO). If this is so, I think the idea is rather sensible. — <b><a href="/wiki/User:Io_Katai" title="User:Io Katai"><span style="color:#0065C4;">Io</span> <span style="color:#C40000;">Katai</span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Io_Katai" title="User talk:Io Katai"><span style="color:#0065C4;">ᵀᵃˡᵏ</span></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Io_Katai-2014-10-14T02:30:00.000Z-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-11T17:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:30, 14 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Io_Katai-2014-10-14T02:30:00.000Z-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-11T17:50:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Io_Katai-2014-10-14T02:30:00.000Z-Sturmgewehr88-2014-10-11T17:50:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-15T13:24:00.000Z-Io_Katai-2014-10-14T02:30:00.000Z"></span>You are right. Remember that it's the second best in my opinion. I think one article per entity is the simplest solution. --<a href="/wiki/User:Nanshu" title="User:Nanshu">Nanshu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nanshu" title="User talk:Nanshu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Nanshu-2014-10-15T13:24:00.000Z-Io_Katai-2014-10-14T02:30:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:24, 15 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nanshu-2014-10-15T13:24:00.000Z-Io_Katai-2014-10-14T02:30:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nanshu-2014-10-15T13:24:00.000Z-Io_Katai-2014-10-14T02:30:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-12T09:19:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-11T17:29:00.000Z"></span>Stop calling it "Total destruction" FFS.—<a href="/wiki/User:Ryulong" title="User:Ryulong"><span style="color:blue;">Ryūlóng</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ryulong" title="User talk:Ryulong"><span style="color:gold;">琉竜</span></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Ryulong-2014-10-12T09:19:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-11T17:29:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:19, 12 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-12T09:19:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-11T17:29:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ryulong-2014-10-12T09:19:00.000Z-Nanshu-2014-10-11T17:29:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-15T13:28:00.000Z-Reorganization?"></span>Nanshu, there is no consensus for your vast changes to these pages. Stop taking what has happened here (your carefully worded questions to get people to only have one answer) as an example as a consensus in your favor. Stop heavily rewriting <a href="/wiki/Amami_language" class="mw-redirect" title="Amami language">Amami language</a>, <a href="/wiki/Kunigami_language" title="Kunigami language">Kunigami language</a>, and <a href="/wiki/Okinawan_languages" class="mw-redirect" title="Okinawan languages">Okinawan languages</a> to suit your agenda.—<a href="/wiki/User:Ryulong" title="User:Ryulong"><span style="color:blue;">Ryūlóng</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ryulong" title="User talk:Ryulong"><span style="color:gold;">琉竜</span></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Ryulong-2014-10-15T13:28:00.000Z-Reorganization?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:28, 15 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-15T13:28:00.000Z-Reorganization?"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ryulong-2014-10-15T13:28:00.000Z-Reorganization?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maunus-2014-10-15T14:01:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-15T13:28:00.000Z"></span>I think Nanshu is justified in considering that there is a consensus that he should be allowed to write the articles and that if doubts about notability persists the correct venue is AfD. There certainly is no consensus that would allow you to order another editor to cease doing the work that they are doing in good faith.<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maunus" title="User talk:Maunus">User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Maunus-2014-10-15T14:01:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-15T13:28:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:01, 15 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maunus-2014-10-15T14:01:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-15T13:28:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maunus-2014-10-15T14:01:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-15T13:28:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-15T14:03:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-15T14:01:00.000Z"></span>Yes but he is not justified in heavily rewriting existant articles to suit his desires to present his own research on these subjects. I've sent <a href="/wiki/Yoron_language" title="Yoron language">Yoron language</a>, <a href="/wiki/Tokunoshima_language" title="Tokunoshima language">Tokunoshima language</a>, <a href="/w/index.php?title=Northern_Okinawa_language&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Northern Okinawa language (page does not exist)">Northern Okinawa language</a>, <a href="/wiki/Okinoerabu_language" class="mw-redirect" title="Okinoerabu language">Okinoerabu language</a>, and <a href="/wiki/Amami%E2%80%93Okinawan_languages" class="mw-redirect" title="Amami–Okinawan languages">Amami–Okinawan languages</a> to AFD but once again reverted Nanshu's massive changes to both <a href="/wiki/Amami_language" class="mw-redirect" title="Amami language">Amami language</a> and <a href="/wiki/Kunigami_language" title="Kunigami language">Kunigami language</a> to the states before he edited them in September.—<a href="/wiki/User:Ryulong" title="User:Ryulong"><span style="color:blue;">Ryūlóng</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ryulong" title="User talk:Ryulong"><span style="color:gold;">琉竜</span></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Ryulong-2014-10-15T14:03:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-15T14:01:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:03, 15 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-15T14:03:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-15T14:01:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ryulong-2014-10-15T14:03:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-15T14:01:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maunus-2014-10-15T14:38:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-15T14:03:00.000Z"></span>When an edit is contested then of course there needs to begin a consensus building process on the talkpage. I imagine this will be rather difficult in your case, so probably you should make an rfC on the talkpage asking about how best to represent the divergent opinions on classification. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maunus" title="User talk:Maunus">User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Maunus-2014-10-15T14:38:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-15T14:03:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:38, 15 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maunus-2014-10-15T14:38:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-15T14:03:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maunus-2014-10-15T14:38:00.000Z-Ryulong-2014-10-15T14:03:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-15T18:32:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-15T14:38:00.000Z"></span>Regardless of that, <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Northern_Okinawan_language&diff=prev&oldid=629731628">Nanshu is still making this a personal dispute rather than one on content</a>.—<a href="/wiki/User:Ryulong" title="User:Ryulong"><span style="color:blue;">Ryūlóng</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ryulong" title="User talk:Ryulong"><span style="color:gold;">琉竜</span></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Ryulong-2014-10-15T18:32:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-15T14:38:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:32, 15 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ryulong-2014-10-15T18:32:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-15T14:38:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ryulong-2014-10-15T18:32:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-10-15T14:38:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Inaccurate_maps" data-mw-thread-id="h-Inaccurate_maps-2014-10-26T18:05:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Inaccurate_maps-2014-10-26T18:05:00.000Z"></span>Inaccurate maps<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Inaccurate_maps-2014-10-26T18:05:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Orland-2014-10-26T18:05:00.000Z-Inaccurate_maps"></span><figure class="mw-default-size" typeof="mw:File/Thumb"><a href="/wiki/File:Europe_germanic-languages_2.PNG" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Europe_germanic-languages_2.PNG/220px-Europe_germanic-languages_2.PNG" decoding="async" width="220" height="239" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Europe_germanic-languages_2.PNG/330px-Europe_germanic-languages_2.PNG 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Europe_germanic-languages_2.PNG/440px-Europe_germanic-languages_2.PNG 2x" data-file-width="1062" data-file-height="1156"/></a><figcaption>Don't they speak english/scots in Western Scotland?</figcaption></figure> <p>Please take a look at the maps <a href="/wiki/File:Europe_germanic-languages_2.PNG" title="File:Europe germanic-languages 2.PNG">File:Europe germanic-languages 2.PNG</a> and <a href="/wiki/File:Lenguas_germ%C3%A1nicas.PNG" title="File:Lenguas germánicas.PNG">File:Lenguas germánicas.PNG</a>. They are made by a spanish contributor, and has recently been discussed at Commons (<a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Lenguas_germ%C3%A1nicas.PNG" class="extiw" title="commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Lenguas germánicas.PNG">here</a>, <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Fobos92#Germanic_languages" class="extiw" title="commons:User talk:Fobos92">here</a> and <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Orland#Germanic_languages" class="extiw" title="commons:User talk:Orland">here</a>), even as a deletion proposal. </p><p>Fobos92's maps have no given sources, and seem to build on "The general strategy of the map seems to be that a majority language is not shown in an area as soon as there is also some kind of other minority language there. In so far, the map might even be saved by giving the right kind of explanations, but the whole strategy doesn't make sense IMHO, and any explanations are going to look confusing." (as one user said in the deletion discussion) As far as i know, that is not a common method when mapping languages. </p><p>The remaining questions (after solving problems concerning Scandinavia) are: don't they speak english in Wales? Don't they speak scots/english in Western Scotland? My opinion is that these maps should show all of Scotland and Wales as scots/english speaking territory. </p><p>I invite other users to help me supply better maps, to add better sources to the discussion, or to help me to convince Fobos92 to make better maps. Bw --<a href="/wiki/User:Orland" title="User:Orland">Orland</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Orland" title="User talk:Orland">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Orland-2014-10-26T18:05:00.000Z-Inaccurate_maps" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:05, 26 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Orland-2014-10-26T18:05:00.000Z-Inaccurate_maps"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Orland-2014-10-26T18:05:00.000Z-Inaccurate_maps"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-De728631-2014-10-26T18:38:00.000Z-Orland-2014-10-26T18:05:00.000Z"></span>See also <a href="/wiki/File_talk:Europe_germanic-languages.PNG" title="File talk:Europe germanic-languages.PNG">File talk:Europe germanic-languages.PNG</a> where more discussions can be found about the original version of the map. <a href="/wiki/User:De728631" title="User:De728631">De728631</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:De728631" title="User talk:De728631">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-De728631-2014-10-26T18:38:00.000Z-Orland-2014-10-26T18:05:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:38, 26 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-De728631-2014-10-26T18:38:00.000Z-Orland-2014-10-26T18:05:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-De728631-2014-10-26T18:38:00.000Z-Orland-2014-10-26T18:05:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div style="clear:both;" class=""></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="PR_for_Czech_language" data-mw-thread-id="h-PR_for_Czech_language-2014-11-20T00:45:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-PR_for_Czech_language-2014-11-20T00:45:00.000Z"></span>PR for <a href="/wiki/Czech_language" title="Czech language">Czech language</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-PR_for_Czech_language-2014-11-20T00:45:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Peer_review/Czech_language/archive2" title="Wikipedia:Peer review/Czech language/archive2"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tezero-2014-11-20T00:45:00.000Z-PR_for_Czech_language"></span>Here you are</a>. No one gave any comments last time, so I'm taking another crack at it. If there's anything that would make you object to this being a featured article, please, say it now! <a href="/wiki/User:Tezero" title="User:Tezero">Tezero</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tezero" title="User talk:Tezero">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Tezero-2014-11-20T00:45:00.000Z-PR_for_Czech_language" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:45, 20 November 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tezero-2014-11-20T00:45:00.000Z-PR_for_Czech_language"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tezero-2014-11-20T00:45:00.000Z-PR_for_Czech_language"></span> </p> <div style="clear:both;" class=""></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/IPA_for_X" data-mw-thread-id="h-Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/IPA_for_X-2014-12-27T00:17:00.000Z"><span id="Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion.2FIPA_for_X"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/IPA_for_X-2014-12-27T00:17:00.000Z"></span>Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/IPA for X<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/IPA_for_X-2014-12-27T00:17:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Erutuon-2014-12-27T00:17:00.000Z-Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/IPA_for_X"></span>Some Help:IPA for x pages have been <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/IPA_for_X" title="Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/IPA for X">nominated for deletion</a>. I was not the nominator, but noticed the nomination and thought a link should be provided here. Visit the nomination page for more information. — <a href="/wiki/User:Erutuon" title="User:Erutuon">Eru</a>·<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Erutuon" title="User talk:Erutuon">tuon</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Erutuon-2014-12-27T00:17:00.000Z-Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/IPA_for_X" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:17, 27 December 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Erutuon-2014-12-27T00:17:00.000Z-Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/IPA_for_X"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Erutuon-2014-12-27T00:17:00.000Z-Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/IPA_for_X"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Content_dispute_on_Spanish_profanity" data-mw-thread-id="h-Content_dispute_on_Spanish_profanity-2014-11-19T13:53:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Content_dispute_on_Spanish_profanity-2014-11-19T13:53:00.000Z"></span>Content dispute on <a href="/wiki/Talk:Spanish_profanity" title="Talk:Spanish profanity">Spanish profanity</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Content_dispute_on_Spanish_profanity-2014-11-19T13:53:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-0x0077BE-2014-11-19T13:53:00.000Z-Content_dispute_on_Spanish_profanity"></span>Greetings. There is <a href="/wiki/Talk:Spanish_profanity#Removal_of_enormous_unreferenced_text" title="Talk:Spanish profanity">an ongoing content dispute at Spanish profanity</a> regarding the removal of unsourced entries. At the moment, there are very few editors involved, so assessing consensus is difficult. Your thoughts on the matter would be much appreciated. <a href="/wiki/User:0x0077BE" title="User:0x0077BE"><span style="color: #0077BE;">0x0077BE</span></a> <sup>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:0x0077BE" title="User talk:0x0077BE"><span>talk</span></a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/0x0077BE" title="Special:Contributions/0x0077BE"><span>contrib</span></a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-0x0077BE-2014-11-19T13:53:00.000Z-Content_dispute_on_Spanish_profanity" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:53, 19 November 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-0x0077BE-2014-11-19T13:53:00.000Z-Content_dispute_on_Spanish_profanity"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-0x0077BE-2014-11-19T13:53:00.000Z-Content_dispute_on_Spanish_profanity"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Wikisource_Latin_textbook" data-mw-thread-id="h-Wikisource_Latin_textbook-2014-11-12T21:05:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Wikisource_Latin_textbook-2014-11-12T21:05:00.000Z"></span>Wikisource Latin textbook<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Wikisource_Latin_textbook-2014-11-12T21:05:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-WhatamIdoing-2014-11-12T21:05:00.000Z-Wikisource_Latin_textbook"></span>There's a scanned copy of a Latin grammar book at Wikisource: <a href="https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/en:Index:The_New_Latin_Primer_(Postgate).djvu" class="extiw" title="s:en:Index:The New Latin Primer (Postgate).djvu">s:en:Index:The New Latin Primer (Postgate).djvu</a> It needs to be proofread and formatted. Proofreading at Wikisource isn't very difficult, especially if you're working on the yellow "proofread" pages, which just need a double-check. It's possible that someone who reads Latin would find that easy to do. I posted this at WikiProject Latin, but they're not very active, so I thought I'd look here for other people who might enjoy this and/or want to brush up on their Latin grammar. <a href="/wiki/User:WhatamIdoing" title="User:WhatamIdoing">WhatamIdoing</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WhatamIdoing" title="User talk:WhatamIdoing">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-WhatamIdoing-2014-11-12T21:05:00.000Z-Wikisource_Latin_textbook" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:05, 12 November 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-WhatamIdoing-2014-11-12T21:05:00.000Z-Wikisource_Latin_textbook"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-WhatamIdoing-2014-11-12T21:05:00.000Z-Wikisource_Latin_textbook"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-0x0077BE-2014-11-20T02:58:00.000Z-WhatamIdoing-2014-11-12T21:05:00.000Z"></span>Is there a better way to navigate this than the way I'm doing it? I've been reaching <a href="https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:The_New_Latin_Primer_(Postgate).djvu/28" class="extiw" title="s:Page:The New Latin Primer (Postgate).djvu/28">the pages individually</a> from <a class="external text" href="https://tools.wmflabs.org/checker/?db=enwikisource_p&title=Index:The_New_Latin_Primer_%28Postgate%29.djvu">this checker</a>. I'd prefer if there were a way to just flip from page to page and click a check mark or something when it's been proofread.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>Also, is there a reason they brought over the DJVU instead of the EPUB or similar reflowing-text version? Surely breaking it up by chapter is better than arbitrarily by page...</dd></dl> <dl><dd>Oh, and one other thing - when proofreading, are we trying to just verify that it's the same text as the original, or do a basic copy-edit. This guy uses a ton of abbreviations that I'm itching to expand. <a href="/wiki/User:0x0077BE" title="User:0x0077BE"><span style="color: #0077BE;">0x0077BE</span></a> <sup>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:0x0077BE" title="User talk:0x0077BE"><span>talk</span></a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/0x0077BE" title="Special:Contributions/0x0077BE"><span>contrib</span></a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-0x0077BE-2014-11-20T02:58:00.000Z-WhatamIdoing-2014-11-12T21:05:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:58, 20 November 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-0x0077BE-2014-11-20T02:58:00.000Z-WhatamIdoing-2014-11-12T21:05:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-0x0077BE-2014-11-20T02:58:00.000Z-WhatamIdoing-2014-11-12T21:05:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-0x0077BE-2014-11-20T03:02:00.000Z-0x0077BE-2014-11-20T02:58:00.000Z"></span>Regarding the first one, I found it - arrows at the top left of the page. Sorry about that. <a href="/wiki/User:0x0077BE" title="User:0x0077BE"><span style="color: #0077BE;">0x0077BE</span></a> <sup>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:0x0077BE" title="User talk:0x0077BE"><span>talk</span></a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/0x0077BE" title="Special:Contributions/0x0077BE"><span>contrib</span></a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-0x0077BE-2014-11-20T03:02:00.000Z-0x0077BE-2014-11-20T02:58:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:02, 20 November 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-0x0077BE-2014-11-20T03:02:00.000Z-0x0077BE-2014-11-20T02:58:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-0x0077BE-2014-11-20T03:02:00.000Z-0x0077BE-2014-11-20T02:58:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id=""Importance"_in_WPLANG_template" data-mw-thread-id="h-"Importance"_in_WPLANG_template-2014-10-12T09:16:00.000Z"><span id=".22Importance.22_in_WPLANG_template"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-"Importance"_in_WPLANG_template-2014-10-12T09:16:00.000Z"></span>"Importance" in WPLANG template<span data-mw-comment-end="h-"Importance"_in_WPLANG_template-2014-10-12T09:16:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-G_Purevdorj-2014-10-12T09:16:00.000Z-"Importance"_in_WPLANG_template"></span>A while ago, we had a discussion about adding the category of importance to WPLANG templates. Later, this category was removed from the WPLANG project page overview. Given that such a category is indeed difficult to justify from a typological perspective and is presumably more often used to express general conceit / deference than anything else, I propose that the template be reformatted in a way that "importance" is no longer shown on individual article talk pages. Moreover, I propose that a bot should remove the relevant text passage from every web page within the scope of our project, so that nobody can take offense from it (or resurrect it without some effort). I would like to know the opinion of the other editors involved. If there is agreement on this point, I'd also wonder who could take charge of the bot. <a href="/wiki/User:G_Purevdorj" title="User:G Purevdorj">G Purevdorj</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:G_Purevdorj" title="User talk:G Purevdorj">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-G_Purevdorj-2014-10-12T09:16:00.000Z-"Importance"_in_WPLANG_template" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:16, 12 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-G_Purevdorj-2014-10-12T09:16:00.000Z-"Importance"_in_WPLANG_template"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-G_Purevdorj-2014-10-12T09:16:00.000Z-"Importance"_in_WPLANG_template"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-WhatamIdoing-2014-10-18T01:38:00.000Z-G_Purevdorj-2014-10-12T09:16:00.000Z"></span>A couple of notes: <ul><li>You're not required to use this parameter at all. MILHIST doesn't.</li> <li>You're not required to call this parameter "importance". WPBIO calls it "priority", which seems much better to me.</li> <li>The main "external" (outside this WikiProject) user of this is the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:1.0" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:1.0">WP:1.0</a> team. They create offline (e.g., CD-based) editions of the English Wikipedia. Since they can't put in all the articles, they use various metrics to choose the right ones. The main metrics include quality of the article (most FAs are included), the number of page views, and—relevantly—a WikiProject saying that you couldn't possibly have a decent offline release without including an article about ________! The way that the WikiProjects tell the 1.0 team what to include (or not) on their behalf is by marking the priority/importance for articles on their templates.</li> <li>There's already a bot (or perhaps an <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:AWB" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:AWB">WP:AWB</a> user) who spends a lot of time updating WikiProject banners. If you want it removed, then you could find that user and ask him to add it to his list. If you just don't want it to be displayed, then you can change the display of the template banner itself. The data would all remain, but people wouldn't see it unless they edited that section of the talk page. <a href="/wiki/User:WhatamIdoing" title="User:WhatamIdoing">WhatamIdoing</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WhatamIdoing" title="User talk:WhatamIdoing">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-WhatamIdoing-2014-10-18T01:38:00.000Z-G_Purevdorj-2014-10-12T09:16:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:38, 18 October 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-WhatamIdoing-2014-10-18T01:38:00.000Z-G_Purevdorj-2014-10-12T09:16:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-WhatamIdoing-2014-10-18T01:38:00.000Z-G_Purevdorj-2014-10-12T09:16:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tezero-2014-11-20T03:21:00.000Z-"Importance"_in_WPLANG_template"></span>Personally, I'd rather keep it but simply provide very clear and consistent instructions about what kinds of subjects get what rating, like <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:VG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:VG">the Video games WikiProject</a>, where most of my editing takes place, does. We could, for example, mandate that all national or <i>de facto</i> national languages of states recognized by the UN (not a perfect standard, but would help with disputes over, say, Montenegrin, Scottish Gaelic, and any number of Native American languages with their own tribal jurisdictions) be Top-importance. <a href="/wiki/User:Tezero" title="User:Tezero">Tezero</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tezero" title="User talk:Tezero">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Tezero-2014-11-20T03:21:00.000Z-"Importance"_in_WPLANG_template" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:21, 20 November 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tezero-2014-11-20T03:21:00.000Z-"Importance"_in_WPLANG_template"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tezero-2014-11-20T03:21:00.000Z-"Importance"_in_WPLANG_template"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-G_Purevdorj-2014-11-20T08:20:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-11-20T03:21:00.000Z"></span>When this parameter was introduced initially, after some pressure from an editor I don't remember, we had indeed agreed upon a number of criteria how to determine this importance. The criteria were more like a typologist might have set them, and not politically oriented like you suggest. After the parameters were established, nobody made any attempt to apply them, and when the importance criterion was applied (still hundreds of cases), it ended up in intransparent ratings I could not understand. Going for political criteria would be inacceptable for some of us, and both they or content-type criteria do anything for the work within WPLANG. Of the majority of editors of WPLANG does not feel the need to apply such a parameter, while externs ignore what our project might be suggesting, the potential to wreck havoc seems quite substantial, and the chance to add value around zero. <a href="/wiki/User:G_Purevdorj" title="User:G Purevdorj">G Purevdorj</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:G_Purevdorj" title="User talk:G Purevdorj">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-G_Purevdorj-2014-11-20T08:20:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-11-20T03:21:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:20, 20 November 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-G_Purevdorj-2014-11-20T08:20:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-11-20T03:21:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-G_Purevdorj-2014-11-20T08:20:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-11-20T03:21:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tezero-2014-11-20T15:15:00.000Z-G_Purevdorj-2014-11-20T08:20:00.000Z"></span>I agree that there's potential for abuse, but I'd like to nitpick something if you don't mind: How would a typologist's criteria for importance be any better? Remember, this is the Languages project we're talking about, not Linguistics. What, are we just going to give preference to head-marking languages? Are analytic languages inherently more important than agglutinative ones? Does ergative-absolutive alignment connote some kind of privilege? I don't see how we could define importance of a language discounting its prevalence or official recognition on Earth. <a href="/wiki/User:Tezero" title="User:Tezero">Tezero</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tezero" title="User talk:Tezero">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Tezero-2014-11-20T15:15:00.000Z-G_Purevdorj-2014-11-20T08:20:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:15, 20 November 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tezero-2014-11-20T15:15:00.000Z-G_Purevdorj-2014-11-20T08:20:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tezero-2014-11-20T15:15:00.000Z-G_Purevdorj-2014-11-20T08:20:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maunus-2014-11-20T17:45:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-11-20T03:21:00.000Z"></span>I dont think there is any good reason for using the parameter at all. There is no objective way of ranking language's by importance, and no authority to defer to, so it would just be an editwar zone in themaking.<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maunus" title="User talk:Maunus">User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Maunus-2014-11-20T17:45:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-11-20T03:21:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:45, 20 November 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maunus-2014-11-20T17:45:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-11-20T03:21:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maunus-2014-11-20T17:45:00.000Z-Tezero-2014-11-20T03:21:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Nyemba_or_Vanyemba" data-mw-thread-id="h-Nyemba_or_Vanyemba-2014-12-03T15:38:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Nyemba_or_Vanyemba-2014-12-03T15:38:00.000Z"></span>Nyemba or Vanyemba<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Nyemba_or_Vanyemba-2014-12-03T15:38:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kawaya_kawaya-2014-12-03T15:38:00.000Z-Nyemba_or_Vanyemba"></span>afternoon wikipediA, l am kawaya Anthony petulu one of those tribe called Ngangela or nyemba. first of all are found wrong information to explain to the world about our tribe, has lm speaking to you now lets me highlight some point. Who is Vanyemba or Nyemba. The Name Nyemba come from to our Dialect tribe called Vanyemba vamaxuaka,Then some Ethnic group like Kwangali people they fail to pronounce the word Vanyemba Vamaxuaka, Then what They did is they cut the name in half Vanyemba, then they leave maxuaka Out,Those days all of us we fall under one name Vambunda tribe but we have various cluster in Vambunda,Thats how our for father live up to were Portuguese colonial come in to Give us that Name Ngangela which it confuse every thing,Simple Question l have who is the king or the Queen of the Ngangela people, The answer will be zero,Then to comeback to the Name Vanyemba, Vanyemba is The name called the mbunda people who migrate from Angola in the time of Portuguese colonial rigime and the civil war of Angola which lead to independence of Angola, wereby a huge number of Mbunda or known by Nyemba cross to Namibia some to Zambia,Then come to Namibia this people of Namibia they cant call all Mbunda people or Vanyemba vamaxuaka to them is dificult wereby the choose to call us Nyembas,in did<i><b>Italic text</b>--<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Kawaya_kawaya&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Kawaya kawaya (page does not exist)">Kawaya kawaya</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kawaya_kawaya" title="User talk:Kawaya kawaya">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Kawaya_kawaya-2014-12-03T15:38:00.000Z-Nyemba_or_Vanyemba" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:38, 3 December 2014 (UTC)</a></i> our parent they expt the name even us the youth we expt it,one Question you ask how many tribe is there in Vanyemba. in Vanyemba you found,Vambwela,Vambunda Nkangala,Vangojelo,Vasheya,Valuchazi,Vanyemba vamaxuaka, which mean this tribe just one they can understand each other without any translation when we talk to each other, Then Chokwe and Luvale when they Talk we can understand each other but l cant answer him in his language but l can respond him/her in any nyemba language he/she can here without translate, that's how we related, some Example among our self language in Mbwela we said; Ndjove,Nkangala said Ove means You, Then we go in Luchazi; mavu, in ngojelo Mavu too means soil, then in mbwela Livu, but we can understand each other without any doubt, therefore l hope those people who write those book which you hold in your office they conduct wrong people to give the the correct information. We are Namibia Nyemba no more Angolan people.<span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kawaya_kawaya-2014-12-03T15:38:00.000Z-Nyemba_or_Vanyemba"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kawaya_kawaya-2014-12-03T15:38:00.000Z-Nyemba_or_Vanyemba"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="The_meaning_of_grammar" data-mw-thread-id="h-The_meaning_of_grammar-2014-12-18T13:41:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-The_meaning_of_grammar-2014-12-18T13:41:00.000Z"></span>The meaning of grammar<span data-mw-comment-end="h-The_meaning_of_grammar-2014-12-18T13:41:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Garik-2014-12-18T13:41:00.000Z-The_meaning_of_grammar"></span>I would like to propose that we stop implying on language pages that <a href="/wiki/Grammar" title="Grammar">grammar</a> includes morphology and syntax, and does not include phonology. I realise this was briefly discussed <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Template#Phonology_and_grammar">eight years ago</a>, but I don't think it was exactly satisfactorily resolved. In linguistics, which is surely the relevant discipline, it is standard to regard phonology as part of grammar. And I disagree with the apparent assertion that the average reader has a strong sense that grammar includes morphology and syntax, but not phonology, and will be confused by seeing phonology included under it, or by seeing "morphology and syntax" instead of "grammar". If we were basing our policy on what the average reader understands by "grammar", then we should probably include all sorts of prescriptive beliefs, plus orthographical conventions. Thankfully we don't do that. <a href="/wiki/User:Garik" title="User:Garik">Garik</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Garik" title="User talk:Garik">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Garik-2014-12-18T13:41:00.000Z-The_meaning_of_grammar" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:41, 18 December 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Garik-2014-12-18T13:41:00.000Z-The_meaning_of_grammar"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Garik-2014-12-18T13:41:00.000Z-The_meaning_of_grammar"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maunus-2014-12-18T17:19:00.000Z-Garik-2014-12-18T13:41:00.000Z"></span>I dont have a strong opinion about this. If we start reorganizing article headers to include phonology under grammar that is fine, but I dont think it is necessary either.<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maunus" title="User talk:Maunus">User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Maunus-2014-12-18T17:19:00.000Z-Garik-2014-12-18T13:41:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:19, 18 December 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maunus-2014-12-18T17:19:00.000Z-Garik-2014-12-18T13:41:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maunus-2014-12-18T17:19:00.000Z-Garik-2014-12-18T13:41:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Angr-2014-12-18T19:50:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-12-18T17:19:00.000Z"></span>My views on the issue haven't changed in the past 8 years (actually, almost 9 now). —<a href="/wiki/User:Angr" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Angr">Aɴɢʀ</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Angr" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Angr"><i>talk</i></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Angr-2014-12-18T19:50:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-12-18T17:19:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:50, 18 December 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Angr-2014-12-18T19:50:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-12-18T17:19:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Angr-2014-12-18T19:50:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-12-18T17:19:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maunus-2014-12-18T20:19:00.000Z-Angr-2014-12-18T19:50:00.000Z"></span>I have just changed the layout of <a href="/wiki/Nahuatl" title="Nahuatl">Nahuatl</a> to try out the Grammar>Phonology>Morphophonology organization. Looks fine to me.<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maunus" title="User talk:Maunus">User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Maunus-2014-12-18T20:19:00.000Z-Angr-2014-12-18T19:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:19, 18 December 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maunus-2014-12-18T20:19:00.000Z-Angr-2014-12-18T19:50:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maunus-2014-12-18T20:19:00.000Z-Angr-2014-12-18T19:50:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Garik-2014-12-19T15:43:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-12-18T20:19:00.000Z"></span>Great. I think the tricky part is whole articles like <a href="/wiki/English_grammar" title="English grammar">English grammar</a>, which would either have to be renamed or have <a href="/wiki/English_phonology" title="English phonology">English phonology</a> included in it. I'd suggest the former, but I suspect this is where there might be opposition. <a href="/wiki/User:Garik" title="User:Garik">Garik</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Garik" title="User talk:Garik">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Garik-2014-12-19T15:43:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-12-18T20:19:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:43, 19 December 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Garik-2014-12-19T15:43:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-12-18T20:19:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Garik-2014-12-19T15:43:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-12-18T20:19:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maunus-2014-12-19T16:21:00.000Z-Garik-2014-12-19T15:43:00.000Z"></span>I for one would oppose that. I think it is clear to everyone that grammar in that case includes morphosyntax and excludes phonology. That is a different use of the word "grammar" in my opinion, one that no linguists would have trouble with. Also article titles follow a different naming criterion - namely common usage. If I by a book called "Danish grammar" I dont expect it to include any more of Danish phonology than is necessary for me to understand the exposition of the morphosyntax. Even reference grammars frequently have minimal phonological information.<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maunus" title="User talk:Maunus">User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Maunus-2014-12-19T16:21:00.000Z-Garik-2014-12-19T15:43:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:21, 19 December 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maunus-2014-12-19T16:21:00.000Z-Garik-2014-12-19T15:43:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maunus-2014-12-19T16:21:00.000Z-Garik-2014-12-19T15:43:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Erutuon-2014-12-19T20:32:00.000Z-Garik-2014-12-18T13:41:00.000Z"></span>I agree. From a historical perspective, the meaning of the term "grammar", or the equivalent in Latin and Greek, has always been roughly as broad as its meaning in modern linguistics, encompassing the description of all aspects of the internal structure of language. Grammars from about a century ago, such as <a href="/wiki/Joseph_Wright_(linguist)" title="Joseph Wright (linguist)">Joseph Wright's</a> Old English and Gothic grammars, and Herbert Weir Smyth's <i>Greek Grammar</i>, included description of what we would call phonetics, phonology, and orthography, as well as inflectional and derivational morphology, syntax, and sometimes semantics. A much earlier grammatical work, <a href="/wiki/Dionysius_Thrax" title="Dionysius Thrax">Dionysius Thrax</a>'s <i><a href="/wiki/Art_of_Grammar" class="mw-redirect" title="Art of Grammar">Art of Grammar</a></i>, also included many of these aspects. So since the historical usage of the term includes as many aspects of language as the modern linguistic usage, on what basis would we exclude some of these aspects?</dd></dl> <dl><dd>Perhaps English grammar as taught in schools doesn't include phonetics, phonology, and orthography, but this is likely only for practical reasons. The subject of grammar in English-speaking countries is taught to children who already speak English and have already been taught how to spell. For "grammar" to include phonetics and phonology, which they have learned growing up in an English-speaking home, and orthography, which is taught as a part of reading classes, would be superfluous. Therefore, "grammar" is restricted to teaching the parts of grammar that English-speaking children lack, which are the prescriptive rules for formal English writing, including some aspects of things like syntax, semantics, and morphology.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>So there's a theory as to where this restrictive usage of "grammar" comes from. And if it's right, then there's no reason why we need to have the same usage on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not fulfilling the narrow function of a grammar class, but rather the larger role of describing the whole of a language's internal structure (grammar), including those things that English speakers already know and do not need to be taught in a grammar class. — <a href="/wiki/User:Erutuon" title="User:Erutuon">Eru</a>·<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Erutuon" title="User talk:Erutuon">tuon</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Erutuon-2014-12-19T20:32:00.000Z-Garik-2014-12-18T13:41:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:32, 19 December 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Erutuon-2014-12-19T20:32:00.000Z-Garik-2014-12-18T13:41:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Erutuon-2014-12-19T20:32:00.000Z-Garik-2014-12-18T13:41:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Garik-2014-12-19T21:01:00.000Z-Erutuon-2014-12-19T20:32:00.000Z"></span>Well, my view is that we should restrict it to the standard default view in linguistics (and I grant that there is variation among linguists), which is that grammar includes syntax, morphology, and phonology (but not orthography, phonetics, or semantics). I take Maunus's point, though, and I don't feel strongly about this to get into any fights. <a href="/wiki/User:Garik" title="User:Garik">Garik</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Garik" title="User talk:Garik">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Garik-2014-12-19T21:01:00.000Z-Erutuon-2014-12-19T20:32:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:01, 19 December 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Garik-2014-12-19T21:01:00.000Z-Erutuon-2014-12-19T20:32:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Garik-2014-12-19T21:01:00.000Z-Erutuon-2014-12-19T20:32:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maunus-2014-12-19T21:16:00.000Z-Garik-2014-12-19T21:01:00.000Z"></span>Basically I think the case you are making simply suggests that grammar articles could or perhaps should have a section on phonology with a link to the main article on phonology. I wouldnt have a problem with grammar articles having that. And all it takes would be for someone to write that section. What I wouldnt want would be for all grammar articles to be renamed "morphosyntax", since that clearly would conflict with naming policy.<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maunus" title="User talk:Maunus">User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Maunus-2014-12-19T21:16:00.000Z-Garik-2014-12-19T21:01:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:16, 19 December 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maunus-2014-12-19T21:16:00.000Z-Garik-2014-12-19T21:01:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maunus-2014-12-19T21:16:00.000Z-Garik-2014-12-19T21:01:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Garik-2014-12-19T22:07:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-12-19T21:16:00.000Z"></span>Yes, that's not a bad solution. In fact, the ultimate ideal might be to have suitably detailed separate articles for a given language on syntax, morphology, and phonology, all linked to by a short summary article entitled "Xish grammar". <a href="/wiki/User:Garik" title="User:Garik">Garik</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Garik" title="User talk:Garik">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Garik-2014-12-19T22:07:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-12-19T21:16:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:07, 19 December 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Garik-2014-12-19T22:07:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-12-19T21:16:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Garik-2014-12-19T22:07:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-12-19T21:16:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maunus-2014-12-19T22:15:00.000Z-Garik-2014-12-19T22:07:00.000Z"></span>I think that should be the ideal, at least for languages that have enough literature about them to sustain three separate articles. For mkst languages we have better coverage of phonology, intermediate coverage of morphology and next to no coverage of syntax.<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maunus" title="User talk:Maunus">User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Maunus-2014-12-19T22:15:00.000Z-Garik-2014-12-19T22:07:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:15, 19 December 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maunus-2014-12-19T22:15:00.000Z-Garik-2014-12-19T22:07:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maunus-2014-12-19T22:15:00.000Z-Garik-2014-12-19T22:07:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Erutuon-2014-12-19T23:04:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-12-19T22:15:00.000Z"></span>I agree in general; however, I would stress that "grammar" as it is used in section headings and article names is not quite equivalent to modern linguistic usage. Your clarification that it (as I would phrase it) primarily involves phonology, morphology, and syntax is correct, but doesn't go far enough. <i>Grammar</i> in modern linguistic usage is the internal rules followed by an individual speaker; <i>grammar</i> as it is being used in section headings and article names means "written description of a language". <i>Grammar</i> in the sense of internal rules involves phonology, morphology, and syntax only because those are the relevant categories when a person is converting thought into speech. <i>Grammar</i> in the sense of a complete description of a language will also include orthography, the structure of the written language, especially as this relates to the representation of phonemes (in a language written using an alphabetic or syllabic system) or morphemes or lexemes (in a logographic system); and phonetics, semantics, and pragmatics as they relate to phonology, morphology, and syntax; and perhaps other subfields under linguistics. The concept of <i>generative grammar</i> is probably closest to the usage of <i>grammar</i> as it occurs on Wikipedia, but grammar sections and articles are usually not quite linguistically rigorous enough to be considered generative grammars.</dd> <dd>All this is to say: <i>grammar</i> sections and articles on Wikipedia are really <i>language description</i> sections and articles, and maybe they should not be recast to fit the modern linguistic meaning of <i>grammar</i>. If the usage of <i>grammar</i> as "linguistic description" is too objectionable, perhaps <i>grammar</i> in the article titles and section headings should be replaced with <i>linguistic description</i>; however, I think this would be a little too pedantic for Wikipedia. — <a href="/wiki/User:Erutuon" title="User:Erutuon">Eru</a>·<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Erutuon" title="User talk:Erutuon">tuon</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Erutuon-2014-12-19T23:04:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-12-19T22:15:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:04, 19 December 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Erutuon-2014-12-19T23:04:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-12-19T22:15:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Erutuon-2014-12-19T23:04:00.000Z-Maunus-2014-12-19T22:15:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Maunus-2014-12-19T23:48:00.000Z-Erutuon-2014-12-19T23:04:00.000Z"></span>Your definition of grammar as "the internal rules followed by an individual speaker" seems theory specific. The last thing grammar articles or sections should be is generative grammars that would be useless for laypeople and for most linguists. They should be as theory neutral as possible leaning probably most closely towards so-called "Basic Linguistic Theory" and the concepts developed in modern linguistic typology. That is the only way they can be useful for a wide audience. That is certainly what I strive for when I write and review language articles. In descriptive linguistics there is a long tradition for considering grammar to be primarily morphosyntax and phonology to be sort of overlapping with grammar rather than a part of it. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Maunus" title="User talk:Maunus">User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw·</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Maunus-2014-12-19T23:48:00.000Z-Erutuon-2014-12-19T23:04:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:48, 19 December 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Maunus-2014-12-19T23:48:00.000Z-Erutuon-2014-12-19T23:04:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Maunus-2014-12-19T23:48:00.000Z-Erutuon-2014-12-19T23:04:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="outdent-template" style="position:relative;left:1px;"><span style="display:block;width:12.8em;height:0.5em;border-bottom:1px solid #a2a9b1;border-right:1px solid #a2a9b1;"></span><span style="display:block;width:12.8em;height:0.5em;border-left:1px solid #a2a9b1;"></span></div><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Erutuon-2014-12-20T02:31:00.000Z-The_meaning_of_grammar"></span>I share the goal of making articles accessible to a wide audience. I wasn't aware of the tradition of descriptive linguistics (aside from what I gather reading grammars of ancient languages, which might count as coming from the very beginning of descriptive linguistics). I was responding not to you, but to Garik's statement that grammar is phonology, morphology, and syntax — this sounds reminiscent of Chomskyan theories that I learned about in my syntax courses, which are based on the "theory specific" definition of grammar that I mentioned, although I could be wrong. </p><p>My point is to agree with including phonology in "grammar", along with several other elements of language description. To me it makes sense to group the sections describing the internal workings of a language together. That in my mind would include the writing system and lexical characteristics as well as phonology, morphology, and syntax, and some phonetics and semantics as they relate to the other parts of the system. Perhaps the sections could be grouped together under a different title than "grammar". My point of view is probably a bit atypical, though, coming more from familiarity with the grammars of ancient languages than modern descriptive linguistics. — <a href="/wiki/User:Erutuon" title="User:Erutuon">Eru</a>·<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Erutuon" title="User talk:Erutuon">tuon</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Erutuon-2014-12-20T02:31:00.000Z-The_meaning_of_grammar" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:31, 20 December 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Erutuon-2014-12-20T02:31:00.000Z-The_meaning_of_grammar"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Erutuon-2014-12-20T02:31:00.000Z-The_meaning_of_grammar"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Small_caps_in_Latin" data-mw-thread-id="h-Small_caps_in_Latin-2014-12-26T23:58:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Small_caps_in_Latin-2014-12-26T23:58:00.000Z"></span>Small caps in Latin<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Small_caps_in_Latin-2014-12-26T23:58:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Erutuon-2014-12-26T23:58:00.000Z-Small_caps_in_Latin"></span>Hi! I started a topic in <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Latin#Small_caps" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Latin">WikiProject Latin</a> on whether small caps should be used for Classical Latin text in <a href="/wiki/Latin_spelling_and_pronunciation" class="mw-redirect" title="Latin spelling and pronunciation">Latin spelling and pronunciation</a>. Members of WikiProject Languages, especially (but not exclusively) those with interest in Latin, are welcome to head over there and comment if they have an opinion. The question needs resolving, and may warrant a poll, although I don't know how to start one myself. — <a href="/wiki/User:Erutuon" title="User:Erutuon">Eru</a>·<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Erutuon" title="User talk:Erutuon">tuon</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Erutuon-2014-12-26T23:58:00.000Z-Small_caps_in_Latin" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:58, 26 December 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Erutuon-2014-12-26T23:58:00.000Z-Small_caps_in_Latin"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Erutuon-2014-12-26T23:58:00.000Z-Small_caps_in_Latin"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="IPA_fix_request" data-mw-thread-id="h-IPA_fix_request-2014-12-28T23:40:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-IPA_fix_request-2014-12-28T23:40:00.000Z"></span>IPA fix request<span data-mw-comment-end="h-IPA_fix_request-2014-12-28T23:40:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PaleCloudedWhite-2014-12-28T23:40:00.000Z-IPA_fix_request"></span>Hello linguists. A new editor today added a "phonological description" for the French pronunciation at the start of the <a href="/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_DS" title="Citroën DS">Citroën DS</a> article. I've tried to apply the IPAc-en template to this new addition, but only get "unsupported input" expressed; is someone here able to take a look? I'm not sure if I'm making a formatting error or if the new editor has made mistakes with the IPA symbols. Thanks. <a href="/wiki/User:PaleCloudedWhite" title="User:PaleCloudedWhite">PaleCloudedWhite</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PaleCloudedWhite" title="User talk:PaleCloudedWhite">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-PaleCloudedWhite-2014-12-28T23:40:00.000Z-IPA_fix_request" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:40, 28 December 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PaleCloudedWhite-2014-12-28T23:40:00.000Z-IPA_fix_request"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PaleCloudedWhite-2014-12-28T23:40:00.000Z-IPA_fix_request"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Erutuon-2014-12-29T00:03:00.000Z-PaleCloudedWhite-2014-12-28T23:40:00.000Z"></span>The problem is, this is a French pronunciation transcription, but <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:IPAc-en" title="Template:IPAc-en">IPAc-en</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> is for English pronunciations and only supports symbols used to transcribe English sounds (like those in <a href="/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English" class="mw-redirect" title="Help:IPA for English">Help:IPA for English</a>). Certain French sounds don't occur in English, so the symbols used to transcribe them (like <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">/ʁ/</span> for the guttural <i>r</i>) aren't supported in the template. I went and added <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:IPA-fr" title="Template:IPA-fr">IPA-fr</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> instead. An IPA for English version could be added if you found a sourced English pronunciation. — <a href="/wiki/User:Erutuon" title="User:Erutuon">Eru</a>·<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Erutuon" title="User talk:Erutuon">tuon</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Erutuon-2014-12-29T00:03:00.000Z-PaleCloudedWhite-2014-12-28T23:40:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:03, 29 December 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Erutuon-2014-12-29T00:03:00.000Z-PaleCloudedWhite-2014-12-28T23:40:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Erutuon-2014-12-29T00:03:00.000Z-PaleCloudedWhite-2014-12-28T23:40:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PaleCloudedWhite-2014-12-29T00:13:00.000Z-Erutuon-2014-12-29T00:03:00.000Z"></span>Thanks, that explains the problems I was having. <a href="/wiki/User:PaleCloudedWhite" title="User:PaleCloudedWhite">PaleCloudedWhite</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PaleCloudedWhite" title="User talk:PaleCloudedWhite">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-PaleCloudedWhite-2014-12-29T00:13:00.000Z-Erutuon-2014-12-29T00:03:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:13, 29 December 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PaleCloudedWhite-2014-12-29T00:13:00.000Z-Erutuon-2014-12-29T00:03:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PaleCloudedWhite-2014-12-29T00:13:00.000Z-Erutuon-2014-12-29T00:03:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="WikiProject_X_is_live!" data-mw-thread-id="h-WikiProject_X_is_live!-2015-01-14T16:57:00.000Z"><span id="WikiProject_X_is_live.21"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-WikiProject_X_is_live!-2015-01-14T16:57:00.000Z"></span>WikiProject X is live!<span data-mw-comment-end="h-WikiProject_X_is_live!-2015-01-14T16:57:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Harej-2015-01-14T16:57:00.000Z-WikiProject_X_is_live!"></span><figure class="mw-halign-right" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_X" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject X"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/WikiProject_X_icon.svg/100px-WikiProject_X_icon.svg.png" decoding="async" width="100" height="100" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/WikiProject_X_icon.svg/150px-WikiProject_X_icon.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/WikiProject_X_icon.svg/200px-WikiProject_X_icon.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="224" data-file-height="224"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure> <p>Hello everyone! </p><p>You may have received a message from me earlier asking you to comment on my WikiProject X proposal. The good news is that <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_X" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject X">WikiProject X</a></b> is now live! In our first phase, we are focusing on research. At this time, we are looking for people to share their experiences with WikiProjects: good, bad, or neutral. We are also looking for WikiProjects that may be interested in trying out new tools and layouts that will make participating easier and projects easier to maintain. If you or your WikiProject are interested, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_X" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject X">check us out</a>! Note that this is an opt-in program; no WikiProject will be required to change anything against its wishes. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you! </p><p><b>Note:</b> To receive additional notifications about WikiProject X on this talk page, please add this page to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_X/Newsletter" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject X/Newsletter">Wikipedia:WikiProject X/Newsletter</a>. Otherwise, this will be the last notification sent about WikiProject X. </p><p><a href="/wiki/User:Harej" title="User:Harej">Harej</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Harej" title="User talk:Harej">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Harej-2015-01-14T16:57:00.000Z-WikiProject_X_is_live!" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Harej-2015-01-14T16:57:00.000Z-WikiProject_X_is_live!"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Harej-2015-01-14T16:57:00.000Z-WikiProject_X_is_live!"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="eyes_on_Habla_Congo,_please" data-mw-thread-id="h-eyes_on_Habla_Congo,_please-2015-01-16T20:39:00.000Z"><span id="eyes_on_Habla_Congo.2C_please"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-eyes_on_Habla_Congo,_please-2015-01-16T20:39:00.000Z"></span>eyes on <a href="/wiki/Habla_Congo" title="Habla Congo">Habla Congo</a>, please<span data-mw-comment-end="h-eyes_on_Habla_Congo,_please-2015-01-16T20:39:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kwamikagami-2015-01-16T20:39:00.000Z-eyes_on_Habla_Congo,_please"></span>Ongoing edit-war over gutting the contents, bad phrasing, and unref'd claims (I'm not sure speaking Spanish is part of speaking "Congo"). It could be better sourced anyway. — <a href="/wiki/User:Kwamikagami" title="User:Kwamikagami">kwami</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kwamikagami" title="User talk:Kwamikagami">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Kwamikagami-2015-01-16T20:39:00.000Z-eyes_on_Habla_Congo,_please" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:39, 16 January 2015 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kwamikagami-2015-01-16T20:39:00.000Z-eyes_on_Habla_Congo,_please"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kwamikagami-2015-01-16T20:39:00.000Z-eyes_on_Habla_Congo,_please"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Omo_Obatalá-2015-01-16T20:44:00.000Z-Kwamikagami-2015-01-16T20:39:00.000Z"></span>Yes, please check the edit history. <a href="/wiki/User:Omo_Obatal%C3%A1" title="User:Omo Obatalá"><span style="color:#FFFFFF;">Omo Obatalá</span></a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Omo_Obatal%C3%A1" title="User talk:Omo Obatalá"><span style="color:#2B65EC;">(talk)</span></a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10#c-Omo_Obatalá-2015-01-16T20:44:00.000Z-Kwamikagami-2015-01-16T20:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:44, 16 January 2015 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Omo_Obatalá-2015-01-16T20:44:00.000Z-Kwamikagami-2015-01-16T20:39:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Omo_Obatalá-2015-01-16T20:44:00.000Z-Kwamikagami-2015-01-16T20:39:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1&useformat=desktop" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10&oldid=1189836770">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages/Archive_10&oldid=1189836770</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks catlinks-allhidden" data-mw="interface"></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 14 December 2023, at 09:50<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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