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.54);--mdc-checkbox-selected-focus-state-layer-color:#fee36f;--mdc-checkbox-selected-hover-state-layer-color:#fee36f;--mdc-checkbox-selected-pressed-state-layer-color:#fee36f;--mdc-checkbox-unselected-focus-state-layer-color:black;--mdc-checkbox-unselected-hover-state-layer-color:black;--mdc-checkbox-unselected-pressed-state-layer-color:black}html{--mdc-checkbox-state-layer-size:40px}body{background:white}html{font-size:62.5%;height:100%}body{height:100%;font-family:AvertaStd;font-size:2rem;-webkit-font-smoothing:antialiased;-moz-osx-font-smoothing:grayscale;text-rendering:optimizeLegibility;letter-spacing:0;overflow-y:auto;overflow-x:hidden;box-sizing:border-box;margin:0;padding:0}#otter-seo{display:none;-webkit-user-select:none;user-select:none}</style><link rel="stylesheet" href="https://assets.otter.ai/styles.4cd765c327e5c58d.css"><style nonce="FAKE-NONCE" ng-app-id="otter-web">[_nghost-otter-web-c2520555482]{box-sizing:content-box}</style><meta property="twitter:player" content="https://otter.ai/twitter_card/note/qxHiGPDpjIwn35-Dlbg9RKXSHJw"><meta property="twitter:player:width" content="480"><meta property="twitter:player:height" content="420"></head> <body> <app-root id="app-root" _nghost-otter-web-c2520555482 ng-version="16.1.3" class="material-icons-loaded" ng-server-context="ssr"><app-react-root _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482></app-react-root><toasts _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482 class="__tailwind__"></toasts><router-outlet _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482></router-outlet><tanstack-query-devtools _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482></tanstack-query-devtools><jotai-devtools _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482></jotai-devtools></app-root> <div id="otter-seo" style="display: none"><h1 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Finnish Internet Forum - 'Internet and War'</h1><h2 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>11:38AM May 23, 2022</h2><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Speakers: </h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Amrita Choudhury</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Vinayak Hegde</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Otis Osbourne</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>[Participant]</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Johan “Julf” Helsingius</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Mikko Hyppönen</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Catharina Candolin</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Peter Sund</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Keywords: </h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>internet</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>companies</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>russia</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>cyber</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>war</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>ukraine</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>finland</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>question</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>attack</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>infrastructure</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>state</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>operations</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>cybersecurity</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>information</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>conflict</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>discussion</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>critical infrastructure</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>nation</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>cyber attack</h3><h3 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>services</h3><img _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482 src="https://otter.ai/static/Otter_Unfurl_Oct2019_LK94_1200x600@2x.png"><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>The IETF as a forum for discussion about the Internet and finished Internet forum is one of the I think hundreds of events and photo which which are our, our successors and children of the IG. Okay, the moderator is the chair of the of the ISOC Finland Finnish chapter of the Internet Society. Julf continues</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Thank you. Thank you. Yep. And yes, welcome to everybody from my behalf as well, wherever you are in the world. So good afternoon. Good morning. Good evening, whatever. Thank you for joining us. The theme for this is Internet at war. And my first contact with electronic warfare and cyber warfare was in the 80s when the technology looked like this. These these days, it's a little bit more modern than this is this was actually a electronic warfare vehicle. That had been replaced now by a smartphone application. </h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>So very briefly, before we go to the panel, I just wanted to mention one initiative that I sort of discussed last week at the right meeting, which is very interesting. There's a bunch of people in the Internet community that realized that it's really important to keep the Internet growing in Ukrainian despite all the damage that's been caused to it. And they actually started this action where they went through a lot of vendors went to a lot of network providers and do you have any spare equipment? Do you have any tools for fixing fibers and so on, collecting it and kept driving their trucks? From mainly from Germany, but around a lot of European countries to Ukraine, and providing equipment to the poor guys who are these guys here are actually splicing an optic fiber that's been blown up by artillery barrage. Those are not the perfect working conditions. to splice fibers I can tell you. So the main future of today is the panel with some very distinguished guests. And I will let the panelists introduce yourself. So please, if you can come and join me here on the stage and make quite a few start, please.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Well, thank you, your thanks to all of you for joining us live here today and thanks for all of you online as well. My name is Mikko Hyppönen, and I am the Chief Research Officer for the largest cybersecurity company in the Nordics. The company used to be called F Secure but now it's called WithSecure because the company is splitting into the largest cybersecurity company in the Nordics and into the second largest cybersecurity company in the Nordics. F secure for consumer products and services and with secure for enterprise products and services. </h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>I've been working with the company for 31 years, during which time I've mostly been tracking when it's not like crime and gangs but also nation state attacks. And for the last three months, I've been tracking what's been happening regarding the Russian aggression in Ukraine.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Hello, my name is Catharina Candolin. I currently work at the OP Financial Group. So I'm in the finance sector. But before that I was almost 15 years in the defense sector. I was working at the Finnish Defence Forces and I was also the chief of the cyber defense section and three years I spent that NATO HQ also working with policy issues in cyber defense.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Hi, my name is Peter Sund. I'm the CEO of Finnish Information Security Cluster which is a lobby organization for all the cyber industry in Finland. FISC, as we like to call it, operates under the the technology industries of Finland.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Thank you. Thank you. So looking at Internet war there's so many aspects we could discuss starting from all this of information warfare going on in the social networks, looking at stuff how there are cyber attacks looking at how armies use the Internet to actually conduct war and then also how vulnerable our infrastructure is or both in terms of non Internet infrastructure that can be affected to the Internet, but then also really physical assets like optical fibers, which for Finland, the critical fibers really run under the water. And so if we don't have too many of them, so that's definitely a vulnerability. So feel free to surf whichever of these you want to surf. Start picking apart.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>If we want to define a little bit about the words around the topic, I think we should do that first because war is such a strong word and especially in in mainstream media the topics around online attacks on nation state attacks, we see strong words like cyber war being used all too easily. I've seen them used for a decade typically to characterize an espionage attack from one country to another using online methods and espionage. Is not war. Spying is not war intelligence gathering is not war yet. It's often called a war. What's happening right now in Ukraine clearly is a war war being played out on land, on sea, air in space and in cyberspace and the cyberspace element of that war. Could be and should be categorized as cyber war, but it's not a separate phenomenon. It's part of the overall conflict. And that's the way we should be thinking about I think we should be thinking about cyber war to begin with.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>No, that's a very good start. thank you.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Yes, I agree very much. With Mikko that we should not talk about cyber war, and actually the Armed Forces don't really talk about cyber war. We're talking about cyber operations, and cyber operations are done and conducted as part of warfare. And it seems that also cyber operations is now becoming mature enough to be seen as part of conventional warfare. So yeah, I agree on the on the terminology aspect.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>As long as we please don't call it a special operation.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Certainly will not. Yeah, also from my side, it's easy to agree with the fact that cyber war is not really a suitable term. Furthermore, so maybe to clarify, the point is that it's also a fact that when you go deep into the meaning of war itself, and the associated international law that that we all operate within the fact is that only states can be in war. Companies cannot. So when any private companies are are sort of using or referring to this it's not purely correct in the in that sense, either. What I'd like to maybe highlight also is just very briefly touching on on our topic. That is visual visual. Behind us, is that Internet at war, that's a very wise formulation of the issue that we have at hand, because the term 'at' is may be one of those, let's say, focus points where we might be leading this discussion here today. Thank you.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Okay, so as we start picking things through, one thing where we could start with is talking about the Internet. One thing that topic that has been really on the surface has been discussion about sanctions. For example, should we cut off Internet access to Russia? Or should we stop deregistered the Russian domains or whatever? And there's been lots of, on the other hand, voices saying, Yeah, we should really do that. But then also strong voices, especially from the Internet community, saying no, the Internet is something that's beyond nation states, and we should not ever cut such a fundamental thing from any nation state for any reason. There is of course, also the argument that of the fact that even Russian stuff soldiers still having Internet access is generating so much wonderful proof for if there's ever going to be a court case in International Court in the Hague. That's of great greater moral hope. I would love to hear your views.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>I'd like to hear if you agree with me first, on the technical part that technically we could disconnect Russia from the rest of the Internet. I believe we could do you agree?</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>We could to a large extent, we couldn't do it. 100% But we can do it. So most Russians would not have Internet access, right?</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Yes, yes. 100% disconnection hasn't happened anywhere else either. But yes, for practical purposes, most of Russians would be offline now. So I think that like technically it's doable. And I would hate to see it happen. Now. I think we all here stand with Ukraine. I definitely stand with Ukraine. I definitely want to support them in any way possible. But I still don't think the right move for the West would be to sanction Russia off the Internet. The Internet is one of the very few truly and really global things we have. I don't like any development which would turn it into disconnected islands. Even in extreme scenario like this. Internet is also one of the very few things left which actually gives real unbalanced information to Russian citizens about what's really happening in Ukraine. </h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>It is a complex question, and it's almost too easy to run into jumping to conclusions that let's get the sanction everything including connectivity. And I think we shouldn't really do this unless we really think it through and really agree that it's the right thing to do and right now, I don't think it would be the right thing to do.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>I mean, Russia has even talked itself about maybe having this [inaudible] and kind of having their own Russian Internet, and they are, I mean, they have still not [inaudible] with all this talk that they have been have been making. But I also agree with Mikko that it's something that we should not do, because one thing that would be crucial in Russia is for the citizens of Russia to get more information and get other information than what the state is providing them, aAnd Internet is perhaps the most powerful means to deliver information. </h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>And also if you look at Kremlin, and for Putin to stay in power or not stay in power, one of the crucial things would be for the citizens to be able to turn against Kremlin, but as long as the citizens support Kremlin, it's easier for Kremlin also to operate. So this whole information aspect, I think, is important, and Internet, I believe, is the most powerful tool that we have to get through to Russian citizens.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Certainly so and it's easy to agree on those points as well. If I'll take another aspect to sort of access to the Internet, under the domain of United Nations, there has been work done, or already sort of discussing about the meaning of Internet to humanity and human rights. There is a non binding international legal document stating that access to Internet this is one of the modern human rights, and the declaration has been approved by the by the Human Rights arm of the United Nations. And although of course we all have to appreciate that it is a non binding document, but it tells a story about the importance of of connectivity. </h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Some have argued that that's actually somehow preventing -- that it wouldn't allow Internet to be shut down for a nation state. That's a little bit more difficult to maybe agree. That is because, if we think about all human rights, almost all, we have derogations from from human rights. For example, if you commit a crime here in Finland, your freedom will be taken away from you, and you will be put to prison and so on. So, we have derogations, and Internet certainly wouldn't be something that is so fundamental, like the right to life and and so on. But, at the same time, it is something that should also be sort of maybe looked at from the fundamental rights perspective, additionally to what was mentioned, that sort of information layer on the Internet, and so on. </h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>And furthermore, talking about terminology, if we would have a a national Internet of any nation state, I'm not sure could we even call it Internet. Internet is like when we have international, then we have some kind of cross border dimension, that would it then be called Natnet? Maybe? I don't know.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Yeah, no, thanks. Good point. Yes.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>I actually have a related question to you, Julf.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Do you believe the stories from Russia about R Unit, and about their capability to disconnect? Do you think it's real? And I'm referring to the two announcements they made during summer 2021, where they said that they successfully tested disconnecting from the rest of the Internet and everything worked fine. We just didn't -- "we" -- didn't see anything happening in any of the routing or anything in BGP or anywhere. So, are you buying that?</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Yes and no. On the one hand, they are clearly accelerating their own capabilities, that's become rather clear. But on the other hand, what they would need to do isn't that hard, it's pretty much what any big corporation is doing already anyway. And we do know they have replicated things like the name service, and they have basically started issuing their own certificates to be able to overrule the ones issued by ICANN, for example. But how successful they actually be in in rolling out those certificates is very unclear. </h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>So, if they would decide to do it today, they could have a working net, but it would be only working for some people, and not everybody. So, until they actually do it, we won't know for sure. They have the capability, but they hadn't had enough time to roll out the infrastructure for everybody to be on the new, and full, mirrored version. </h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>And then they would learn how exactly how well the Russian software development companies would work without access to GitHub.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Exactly. Yes. Perfectly example. I mean, this goes back to sort of even a discussion I had long, long ago. Just briefly after the Soviet Union fall, and people ask me, am I afraid that this old Soviet Union might come back at that point? My answer was no, because the oligarchs wouldn't like their credit card stop working. </h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>So, to pick up on some things that you said, Well, firstly, especially for Yrjo and me, who actually have been spending a lot of time trying to interface between the Internet community and governments, and especially the UN, you also realize that you and it's not always the friend of the Internet community. And there are a lot of initiatives driven from the UN, that are driven by country like China, Russia and India, that actually really try to drive towards that sort of separate islands of Internet model. And yes, I totally agree with the definition, then it's not an Internet anymore. It is fragmented, sort of distributed something, but not the Internet anymore, but that is very strongly how some countries in the UN are driving it.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Yeah, that's very well said, and to a certain extent, maybe we can maybe differentiate at least sort of three dimensions from your comment, one being that it would be maybe useful for all of us to recognize the fact that the UN is a collaboration platform of all nations. And all nation states, with that platform, they have the right to advance their own objectives, and they certainly do. And, with that said, I think, more responsibly -- instead of criticizing so much, let's say all authoritarian states, trying to advance their own agenda, would be maybe to criticize ourselves, that the liberal Western democracies and so on. Are we coming together on these issues to sort of protect against these kinds of objectives, and maintaining the the ideas of the of the free Internet, and not only free, but also reliable, and many other terms that we can describe what the Internet should actually be? </h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Then there is also the issue that the internal workings of United Nations can sometimes be difficult, not only because of this political nature, but it is the sort of the best what the humanity has been able to come up with so far, with all its difficulties. Why I'm talking so much about this is that I have worked with the United Nations on several occasions, and I mean, with the United Nations as well. So I understand a little bit of the inner workings as well. </h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Maybe also the public sphere, for example, here in Finland. We are not raising these issues at this level. For decades, I think Mikko is probably the best person to say that, for decades, we have actually been focusing on the technical aspects of of security in the digital world. And certainly it hasn't gone anywhere, so it's equally important still. But we haven't yet understood how much changed is human life, and all the other layers that that we have there.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Or we probably have realized it but there's a big great public out there hasn't, they just take it for given. And this is something that we discussed once within the community, that we know what the Internet means and how it works. But, for most people, there is just this obscure cloud that is there, just like electricity and water and everything and who cares? Yes. </h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>I was also going to say, yes, youhad a really good point about the fact that it's easy for us to criticize authoritarian regimes or whatever. And, at the same time, we are saying, yes, the Internet is open and free as long as you don't violate any copyrights, as long as you don't... Yes. So, yeah, we will have to look into mirror too. </h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>By the way, for the audience, feel free to solve if you have any questions, you can attract my attention, and we we have a Twitter feed, so let me know if there's any sort of questions coming from Twitter. </h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>So then, maybe, I would like to shift on to this. We talked about, in the case of Russia, how important is to get the information to the Russian people. Then we have the whole question of disinformation, misinformation, and whatever. Would you like to sort of comment on that situation at all? It's clear -- I mean, I think what we have seen is that Ukrainians have managed to pretty good information warfare tactic, whereas Russians haven't done quite as well except in their home market.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>If I may start again, I would not talk about information warfare, but Information Operations and Information Operations as such, that's nothing new. As long as humankind has been waging war, there have been Information Operations. The things that have changed though happened around 2010, when the social media platforms emerged, because they created a new platform to really spread and propagate both misinformation and disinformation. There you could see nation states affecting decision making in other nation states, two typical examples have been the decision on Brexit, and also the United States presidential election in 2016. So, when talking about Information Operations and cyber operations, a term that is now being used very often is hybrid operations, which is basically what we also see now in the war on Ukraine. So that, first, before the kinetic things have started to happen, you have both Information Operations and cyber operations, and then after, also with the conventional forms of warfare. So, now you have both conventional ways and unconventional ways of waging war. Information Operations is one part of it, just as the cyber operations are</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Right. Yeah, good point. </h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Yeah. And I think we were all -- well, I guess majority of us -- were expecting from Russia to be capable of showing more force in the real world, and I think the general consensus is that they are slowly but surely failing with their attack on Ukraine in the real world. The same applies to the online world as well. Their cyber operations and their information operations, at least the ones we're able to monitor and see don't seem to be making the mark. I guess we were much more scared of the St. Petersburg troll factory, having in mind the successful operations that Catharina mentioned, and they're nowhere to be found during the Ukraine conflict. </h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Now, a couple of explanations which might be at play here. The most easiest explanation would it be that the forces are at play, but they're not targeting us, They're targeting people inside Russia, they're targeting minorities or language minorities, people in China, people in Africa. Here in Finland, for example, there's seems to be much more misinformation targeting minorities who don't speak Finnish. And that's for us much harder to see. And that's also a clever way to wage the war. There's a war going on, which we don't even see at all. </h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Maybe to continue with that is that, as Katherine well said, Information Operations have existed since forever. At the same time, maybe we shouldn't also forget that Information operations are ongoing also when there is no war. And that is something which also quite often is -- I don't want to say forgotten, but maybe goes unnoticed. And a lot of the actual work, and that sort of reaping the benefits of of that, occurs way before, or it's also possible that the day of war never even occurs, but Information Operations certainly are ongoing. And I think we can say this out loud, that Russia as a nation state and also its predecessor, Soviet Union, has been operating under this kind of doctrine for a very long time. And that also creates, of course, the potential success, or successes, from their perspective, because it's part of all the daily operations. </h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>If you really think about it, that when there is a government agency, responsible of implementing Information Operations all the time, and then there are people being employed and doing that as their daily job, of course, like any organization, they develop and get better at it. Also something that we shouldn't shouldn't forget is, of course, the targets change, the topics change. It's also two dimensional, that some of it is for domestic purposes, and some of it to somehow create uncertainty or or or confusion in within the societies of the target states.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>If I may continue from that. It's very good that you brought up this point about this information operations going on already in peacetime, or hybrid operations. This is exactly why experts are talking about updating our legislation, especially when it comes to our law of preparedness, [inaudible], because the problem today is that it's very conventional. It recognizes peacetime, it recognized time of conflict, and it recognize times of war. But now, when these hybrid operations are going on already in peacetime, it doesn't give the mandate to the authorities to operate. And it takes a very long time before we are going over to the the stages of conflict, etc. So the legislation should be updated to understand also these hybrid threats that we see.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>And, according to Russia, it's not even a war. It's just an operation. But we do have to give full points for execution for the Information Operations coming out from Ukraine. The propaganda and the memes. Being able to generate and distribute worldwide are quite amazing indeed. And they work. I see them myself. I feel. I agree. I keep nodding myself with the memes of Ukrainian farmers dealing tanks with tractors that yeah, were very nice, or, you know Fuck You Russian Warship. I see T shirts with that text, and that means that the Ukrainian meme forces are in full effect, and very successful in their operations. Propaganda works much better when we agree with the propaganda.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Yes. I just love to see how well it has worked in Africa and Asia.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>No, I was just gonna say that it's about winning hearts and minds. And that Ukraine is really doing </h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Oh, yes.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>We have a Twitter question.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Okay, so this question is from the livestream.com platform. How do you think the war will transform the policies by Apple and manufacturers in the Android ecosystem regarding responses to sanctions and complying with national regulation?</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Anyone wanting to take that?</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Okay. I can't -- at least from my perspective, I'm not able to speak about the companies as a group. They are certainly different, that they have different market mechanisms as well. Apple operates completely different from Google, and so on. But one thing is that, if we take the hyperscale companies in general, they're offering digital services to a wide variety of users, be it private users or companies, governments, and so on. At least, from my perspective, I can see that there may be a shift happening now on, let's say -- I don't know the appropriate term in this moment to use, but this kind of global corporate citizenship, meaning that these companies might be looking at more carefully on how they stand, with sort of what are the rules they want to support, and what is the ethical basis of such. It remains to be seen, of course, but then there are maybe weak signals at least</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Well, I think one thing that is happening, there's no question of what are the responsibility of these companies. For example, when we talked about the Information Operations, what is the responsibility of the company to actually do something about, if they notice that there's disinformation go around. On the other hand, then you have the other group talking about freedom of speech. So, where is the line between freedom of speech and actually very harmful disinformation? So, this is a discussion that is actually ongoing now, because there's been these claims that the social media companies should do more. So, I have no question what they should do or what they will do, but the discussion is at least ongoing.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>If I understood the question correctly, it was in particular about mobile players. So, Apple and the iPhone ecosystem and Google or alphabet and the Android ecosystem, and I'm not really sure what will happen there, and how that will change, I guess, mostly, it would be about which applications would be allowed in which countries. I don't really know if that's going to change much, but I also don't think it's the most interesting part about how companies will change their attitudes. </h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>The biggest Silicon Valley or US West Coast technology companies are as big as countries, their revenues, much less their market caps, are much bigger than small countries are. They do public policy, they have public policy departments, they lobby heavily, they try to set laws. Of course, they don't like themselves to be characterized like that, but that's what they are. And interestingly, this year has, as far as I know ,shown for the first time, some of these companies actively engage in the conflict, engage in the war, not in fighting the war, but in building defenses. Both Google and Microsoft - not Apple, but Google and Microsoft have been very active in defending Ukrainian infrastructure against Russian aggression. They themselves describe this as supporting their clients and customers, and supporting western values and freedom, not about fighting a war, not about fighting the military attacks from Russia. But, that's basically what they're doing, they're defending Ukrainian infrastructure against cyber weapons waged by the Russian government. And I don't think we've ever seen this before. I think this is the very first conflict that we see big Western companies take a stand and participate in the active conflict like this. I do think it's quite historic. </h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Very, very well said, Mikko. One, maybe two points came to my mind to continue on that, is that certainly they do have the kind of public public policy shaping department and efforts as well. But, at the same time, well, first of all, because my work is lobbying work, so I know roughly how it works...</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>We'll allow it.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Thank you. And what I can at least reaffirm is that it's not shady, or something that happens in the dark corners and so on. And there is maybe even proof of that these companies that we were referring to earlier, they put almost 30 million euros worth of lobbying within European Union, just only, let's say, on those critical EU nation projects, the Digital Markets Act and Digital Services Act and so on, and they were not successful. So, European Union legislators did not accept their arguments essentially. And so it also means that it's not that money talks, it's quite often the strongest argument may actually work, and that brings me a lot of reassurance as well. That these companies are not dictators like authoritarian precedents, or kings or whoever. Which is a good thing because because public policy and politics, this is managing our common affairs and issues.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Mikko said that this is the first time that companies do this scale, this is participating, but this is also the first time we see cyber operations as part of conventional warfare on this scale. So I guess that's not true, but this will be the new normal because if we look at how nation states and armed forces had been developing what we call cyber defense, seen as the cyber domain is seen as one operational domain that is comparable to land, sea, air and space, and so the army is developing their capabilities accordingly. So basically, the capabilities are intelligence. And that's also very much about preparing the battlefield so to say so not only collecting information, but but kind of keeping the foot in the door should you need to, say offensive or aeration. So offensive capabilities, and then defensive capabilities which is basically the ability to defend oneself against the intelligence and offensive operations by an adversary. So this is something that horses have been developing some have even been using, as we see now in this war is being used not to such a big success or as bigger success that we were maybe expecting especially being from Russia. This is only the beginning, but this is going to be the new and more. So in future wars. The server element, I believe is going to be mature and be seen as equal to lancea and, and space events.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Maybe very briefly, adding something something actually what you said reminded me of this is actually actually a very good very good point coming coming from a lot of universities that they're not only in Ukraine, but they were else that that our societies are not like ours are not like the Death Star in in Star Wars. So there is there is no huge plug anywhere. If you destroy that one, then the whole system will will will explode and collapsing in reality. So modern societies are not are not the only see late and then the Death Star Wars and that's also a good good thing.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Okay. So, from Twitter the question is that in today's theater of war, which are the digital assets to be safeguarded by a national nation state, and there's an actually one already one suggestion from another year there would be identification? Is national public services, public services because of the huge amount of data they hold? And could you answer</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>so the first question, domain national assets is our critical infrastructure. So we are talking about, for example, electricity, telecommunication, logistics, financial sector, and so on and so forth. And also the the critical infrastructure, it's dependent on technology. Typical infrastructure is also dependent on on each other. And I will say that, for example, in the north, it would be very difficult to power is cut, for example, in January when it was cold and could mess up a society predicted by targeting the financial sector if people can't get money out of their bank accounts. Or for example, the courts are not working. It will not take many days before we have riots industry because people need food. And so on. And even if they would have money to go to the store, and what if the store sometimes do not work or even if the store systems do work, but what if we don't get food or supplies or containers that are sitting in harbors because their systems are disrupted? So I would say that the critical infrastructure being the main assets This is also one thing that you see in the operational thinking of many armed forces is that the critical infrastructure is the target.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Maybe to continue very briefly on that is that when we when we use this kind of listing, which certainly is really appropriate, but there is one aspect, which is not clear, I think, for at least for a wider, wider audience is that critical infrastructure when we talk about telecommunication and networks themselves like it like it was mentioned in here in the beginning they certainly are critical, but that takes time we should maybe understand that. That the aspect of digital computer systems, they are the ones which are which are running all of our critical infrastructure and also the ones who are operating companies be it logistics company or food producing operator or or a bank or whatever they are all running digital and it's for me, it's more and more difficult to actually say where the where the threshold or where the where the border between critical infrastructure and non critical actually is. I write about in my book, which came out in finished last year will come out in English in August where I compare it to where we are right now to the revolution, which started 150 years ago with electric grids like no connectivity is going to be exactly as necessary is today, connectivity isn't yet critical, but it will in 2030 years it will be critical as as electricity in fact, eventually a connectivity cutting is going to TriCity which is going to be wild because right now an electricity cut will come connectivity routers don't work without power. But one thing is that eventually everything all the devices we run will require connectivity in order to function and that eventually is going to affect our electricity grid itself. So activity with regard to cut power, which is going to be weird, but it's going to happen. When it happens. Remember, I said it first nevermind</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Yes, I know we have a question here but I would still like to continue a little bit as we are on this topic texting infrastructure. I see interesting discussions taking this to extremes. I know some of the people who worked with securing especially the websites and everything infrastructure in Ukraine. And they really the first thing they wanted to replicate and replicate everything outside Ukraine, basically created was take everything you can from inside Ukraine and put it outside during vacated way but then also almost the opposite of you. For example, here in Finland, there's lots of discussion about Shouldn't we cultural infrastructure. Much of it already picked up turtle players outside Finland in outside Europe. I would just love to hear your comments on this sort of uneasy balance.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Well the challenge with that is that if we limit our discussion on the general level, like it was formulated in as the question here, we there won't be any agents intelligent and the problem with that is that because we have different risks. So it's not the same risk for let's say, for data availability. Having replicated data I have the jurisdiction of a nation state is definitely the way to go. But at the same time, when we are doing this, we are we are creating blurry discs, and then we are talking about confidential party risk. So when the data is under the jurisdiction of any other nation state, it is essentially subject to variation there. And and that raises a lot of concerns, especially for the ones who are responsible for the, let's say, higher levels of classified information owned by the government that and also of course, companies do worry about the same issue in terms of their trade secrets and things like that. So we would have sort of bring these risks together and analyze the importance and in any given scenario, because it may be that when we are close to moving towards, like gathering a certain fear here, when we are moving towards a situation where we would have to operate under our preparedness, regulation, or even war regulation, regulation, it might be that the level of risks risks shift so heavily that we can do things that we wouldn't do in normal circumstances. But we haven't had this discussion widely, I think yet. And I really think we should I think for most organizations, most companies and most public sector organizations the level of data security increases when you move your services and your data to the cloud provider. Most companies and invest the level of expertise and the level of money he says during their own on premise services or their own private clouds clearly, the big out players. So it's quite clear that that No, almost no cases, cybersecurity itself increases when you move into cloud services. The next question is, what about confidentiality? So the question really is which cloud are we talking about? It actually becomes a more of a political decision that if you go to the cloud, which cloud because there is a difference whether you will see Alibaba cloud or index cloud as opposed to let's say Hetzner cloud or AWS or Google or Microsoft, so it really depends on which cloud you're using. All of these cases, cybersecurity is probably better than trying to run the data and the services by yourself. Confidentiality will be vastly different. You go to a service that you trust or or or service that you can trust.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>I would like to disagree for entertainment training. Well, you will disagree with however, let's put it this way. Information is not created equal. Some information is maybe more critical than other and confidential. That information is also the confidentiality of information can also be time bound. So some information can be very secret right now, but not so much in three years. So there is no one truth we see better than the other. There's the questions of availability and the questions about confidentiality and integrity. So one size does not fit all. Some solutions it might be it's replicated somewhere else and does make us choose the cloud wisely. In some cases, it might be better to keep things by yourself if right mess on their situation.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>And maybe for the sake of practical there I would like maybe added I think it can be stated even as a kind of a fact that in Finland we do have a challenge here because the way how we think at the moment is that Britain, Finland, and the rest of the world we have decode essentially we have got amico categorization. Finland is the test and the other countries are all equal in terms of confidentiality. And these I think, would require a lot more. It sucks. Really, look at that, okay, do we have God where we can actually minimize risk for confidentiality even if the data would be let's say classified as a higher, higher higher, higher level of creation? And then the other</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>could have been that mind you that EU member states that have been caught red handed for looting espionage, another EU member states</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>correct that is precisely what I meant to say. It's not something that we should sort of draw from from our heart and say that oh, okay. Western country fine, is going to run out fine. I'm not like that. We would really need to sort of drill down into how it could be done on and we just jurisdiction really may be suitable by</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>so quick comment, and it was interesting to hear so the opinion of Ukrainians about where they would like to have their data stored and regularly said, what the country is over. Poland, Czech Republic,</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Great Britain,</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>France, Germany, no David so if they need to. I would also pretty quick we were earlier talking about how companies have now started to kind of become their own law. big debate. That also falls into some countries and cultures, simply stations that seem dirty and some others most of us, especially your some extent, will think that the companies take care of these companies can do this better than the government, whereas European view is of course more. We can't let companies make decisions that make us a democratic sort of organ shouldn't be making as does that view differs very much from different countries to another. So that's probably also factor. Oh, don't need to comment on that.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>If you Well, I can try to comment. Especially because right here similar. This discussion will our member companies this question can be approached from many perspectives, what your perspective is that companies operate with with commercial and business logic. Blank in Finland, your feed all regulated concerning. stock companies with limited share, it says that they have a company a strict financial value due to their own full stop. It's that's what it says. Yeah. So that is not the right. Approach to to politics. Because politics, like I mentioned is about managing our common affairs before for the better of the society. And so I personally at least I'm a firm believer of this European way of looking at this that we have to take other values into consideration and there is no one else who could do. We don't have a public debate, quality and regulation made made in accordance with that discussion. This is one of the reasons why we are here I hope and be able.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Yes, I'm trying to remember which yes, I'm trying to remember which side it was who had a book where Why don't just outside premises was in the EU and had been replaced by the Internet.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Was that a horror sci fi book? Utopia. All right.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>So this is from the data stream.com platform again, it's going back to the big tech and their role in the cloud. Are you guys aware of any companies that are trying to resolve the issue and through conflict or other methods?</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>brief response from my side, I am not aware of me.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Many there, I don't really need to be in a role for company, either.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Yeah, I agree. I mean, the work in our company has been work. In your brain. Companies that I know, like Ukraine are working with the Ukrainian government and rhenium public sector and Ukrainian companies and citizens are doing practical work. Fighting the cyber attack on increasing defenses and bringing the ability to build detect new attacks better which is very practical, concrete celebrator defense work for trying to build a bigger picture. piece, of course, everybody. Is but that of course, of course. I'd love to see it. But I agree with Catarina it's probably not the right place to be it's the right to be done by companies.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Thank you. I would like to Next off, we want to dismiss the Mesa vulnerable fire infrastructure. We've concluded our cyber attack any huge damage compared to the scenarios that we could imagine being resolved just to see the green being taken down or off social services being taken down or even, you know, service on really essential services. And so, I would love to hear your views about how well our infrastructure really is sort of compiled from all the myths about it. So how realistic there is a text point.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Oh, hold on. Do you keep oriented? Well, of course,</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>I would like to build it into a slightly broader audience than just Finland.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>I already hinted to this when I'm changing the syllabus charities. The decisions that are great 100 others did 150 years ago, raising electricity exactly the same way while you are now making decisions for future generations, Internet will be a mandatory part of our society. And we are the ones making this decision for their children shouldn't be making this call because clearly, our great grandfather's made the record by embracing it has brought much more good than bad but we are now totally dependent on it exactly in the same way. We will become a little depend on digital goods and services and the cooperativity which is really important. Now it didn't exist. The 3040 years ago, we'll build it and it made a mandatory part of modern societies in the US and when we try to defend the way motor society work. One of the practical challenges we have is that typically infrastructure is in the hands of private companies, which is much harder or for management and central coordination or cybersecurity, B. Governments would own everything by way it used to be when we were dumbs let's say, that's easy at all anymore. There I do think there is a difference. Big differences between countries and different nations and how they deal with to do billionaires fairly well, in general understanding of responsibilities that company has for national security believe they need to have a better understanding of the risks of mobility for security than most other nations do. This couple of reasons that I like it but overall the outcome of is good. And that's I think that kind of public private partnership being in other countries as well.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Ugly and thank you, actually for opening up the possibility of he may not have to come to me with every topic every topic is usually that what does it mean to defend the sovereignty of a nation state also in sideways like channel space was and was redressed earlier the critical infrastructure is typically the main target for nation or nation, state. Corporations and infrastructure are owned by the private sector. So basically, some companies they do have the responsibility to of course, remember on cybersecurity is going to take this responsibility away from them. However, one thing that is done is a cyber that is conflict, compare it to conventional military can be considered and and in that case, the country would have the right to defend itself. In some cases, donation would even have an obligation to defend let's say you've got attacked our country and is using your infrastructure. What does that you have yourself? Well, first of all, you need to be able to determine who aggressor and also the political will to attack you need to have a sense of what countermeasures you have a blue green deployment. They could be or it could be worse with a kinetic attack, torture. Nation states actually talk about using your to defend themselves and you have everything in between we need to find a sense of what would be the possible measures, then you need a situation or evidence that is kind of on a national level, not only between the authorities with private sector so again, you need to have a relation that is up to date. So the authorities have to do something also you need to have this international collaboration you need to have control so that if and when short scale attack would happen, you know, how about talking about this that you will bend your nation in case of an attack is coming and probably hitting your critical private infrastructure is that it will threshold to attack much higher and this is the logic that comes to the nation in any case. So the idea is that if you attack us, by convention, or cyber means we will respond. So think about if he tries to do so, or do you have the resources to do so. And that's an extra layer of protection, critical infrastructure, so the critical thing, left alone to protect their own systems, but may respond that they attack our critical infrastructure or it and attack organization and we will respond to that.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>So what you're saying is we should have a cyber equivalent to nuclear bombs,</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>saying that we need to have this analogy when talking about cyber defense. If you're making does it remember if throwing let's say the logical steps by yourself or if the effect is the same? We should have in mind</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>thank you it's, it's easy to agree on this. Ice. There are some challenges in the way how we talk about the need. And that's essentially due to the fact that we are actually combining different professional feel if I may use that term that, for example, the Coliseum is in diplomacy. There are certain ways to sort of maintain understanding of what this professional space the things are and and then then in the modern side, where we have the gene theory, professionals and other things like that, and that it's a challenge, because Renee is also saying this is actually putting in other words MCs about a question of that Easter's can kind of deterrence in cyberspace that it would be very difficult to to understand and, and even to come to a conclusion, because if you want an easy answer, then in what is that okay, if there is a cyber station, and there would be in a traditional kinetic weaponry, then it's easy to under that currently sad terrorists that if you make a cyber against that, drop a nuclear bomb on you. Do very, very simple but, but other than that the problem is IMC is theories understanding of fans is very narrow it like like Katherine was explaining it very well. Maybe you saw and heard this premium space for what is preventative? It is that how rarely, our stuff is actually not met what weapons there are, and that's one side, which is missing from the from my perspective, at least, as the secondary review attribution could be also getting into two different strands. It's about the technical question that how can computer scientists other professions or find ways to pick up the the insight and the evidence that who was behind that offset operation and so on, but the other symbolical wait is see this is a surely a portal of thinking thinking. The diploma diploma or the sort of the deep blue side of things and meet users and determinations of costs when it's and miners and so on that can be much more difficult to do. Because I think some of the properties of cyber are the deniability part. And the ease of doing flag attacks that when you these weapons, you get comparable end results to try to in any case. Typically</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>execute and what happens would have required you to invest because no one can deny that it's not you. Or even better you can</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>blame on someone else on another country, which makes attribution even more critical. You're really going to be doing if you're building up a nuclear divine creation of cyber attacks you better be damn sure you really know who did it. And it's not a false flag. And there's multiple different types of properties, deniability, and either false flags make deterrence or building warrants. With cyber weapons hard</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>to really build.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>The reason why we do traditional military parades is show off fighter jets and cruise missiles or whatever we have tanks. So we've seen more scarier knocking because they know all these weapons never seem to parade with nerve endings. It just makes me well. Let's think that through your let's think that let's say we want to get our geeks what's a nerd Tamilians you can show them in a parade. Why do we need to show them in action we need to avoid, bring the world war one attack. military targets and Brett breached the security and disable them 40 Actually, it's not enough to show them actually have to show the world doing what is devoted to exploiting that it's real it's not just make believe and that's something we can't do only by weapons. But weapons if we actually should we actually do that then me and copy it and have the same weapon we can't do that. So the deterrence is god damn hard when you can show the real bilities methodical writer a</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>first year MBA</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>thanks seems to be a concept of the cyber prayer adults are being somewhat underwhelming Do you think they are breathing a game? Or could it since they started to fall out of an old warfare became so listed on the list of priorities that they are not using?</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>I'll start because I want to emphasize one thing we all agree here. We're here to speak about sir facts and any clearer with more cyber activity in any other company before but it's been such a part of them pick and choose really be overemphasized. Cyber attack because the real tragedy has happened in the real world. And even though cloud things in cyber world they've been such a small part of it. Now, I don't think that the lack of perfect brunch, offensive cyber power in this has been for the lack of I think Russia is trying I think it's really a question of great people to do this self thing. That's where the big difference cannot defend, defend themselves with the experience they will build for a winning against cyber at all. Thanks to the help, though. So I think reducing trying that they have had success. We've had financial meltdown during this conference. We've seen the border control under the tax in the Virginia of the war. But most of their attacks have been defended by servants. Yeah. Additionally, a few things come to mind as well. One is that fish, if you look at the military obey I think they just have you here to all us even from the ballgames that we can play baby station or whatever it is. And if you look at that we get from the more front battlefronts they are thinner the worse gets and with over dimension, I think we want to identify easily that there are two or even three fronts. active at the same time. Rush and resources are utilized due to the massive Open Russia, Ukraine. At the same time, the actors on the sensor they have to use their defend themselves and not only the military seven, but also by or Internet Society because they are there is a lot of active opposing and being active on the Internet. Russia and then this time, there are patients on government against states as well, including family and other that is one aspect. QUESTION But but because because these depended on resources, people in exchange can't be modified. Which we can copy, be competent. Have to wait until all times it takes 30 plus years. They are really content. So that's that's the other thing is that these kinds of site assessment, certainly and I'm not saying it's not that you have to start off to say that they are complex, complex and complicated. Because computer systems as we all know they change over time. Get cheese and change these done while we let go when calm and always and if you want to have a serious impact, then you need a lot of things to pull right in the right time. And your time period developed all the weapons and everything else but sort of silly, like like we talk when we talk about malware. We call out the payload code and we talk about the sort of platform or given conditions. A lot of things are not easy. It's not easy. The smallest thing can can make it your timeline and none are thrown off to visit.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Boring again, three, which was the previous one that I still would like to just that I don't understand what has been going on, because has been cyber on the critical front with more or less in some time outside of Ukraine, of course, is the tragedy that is happening. Of course, we can speak on those. But also then, things that we don't know yet so there's a lot of things we will be realizing later. As soon that this reading will be over. I don't think we have some larger extent, notions of Russia's capabilities. What has now proven and Alcatel Ukraine also has a lot of time to up their senses when it comes to cyber attacks.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Yeah, we have this question in mind but anyway, I wanted to get back with me because about</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>AIDS and showing off our cyber. We actually I feel already having access because there is there are several people who have been cyber Spectre</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>highest score type of war games. So though I suppose they are being done more often because of the reasons you said show off that we have these problems than that. Well that was the question</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>and it's a good point. When we look at kind of it is safe with demonstrating your blog, we can be pretty confident that there was actually real functioning exploits be used to reach the target industry or games or without explaining exactly what they were else's favorite way to show your coral. If it's tip. And of course everybody wants to listen to your brain abilities on the data, especially if you believe that it's safe that we don't expose your cells to enemies. Yeah, maybe that is create an example of building around in the cyber domain.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>But it was the locked shields that you were talking about. In that one. One thing that was talked about that service setup, the finish theme so we'll be able to get against the separation between the default for profit, which is good. Now talking about should we operate our DT military parade for the most common misconception response to cyber attack would be another cyber attack against this is talked before about countermeasures can be everything from deployment to cutting course it can all be okay. But okay would you like to have a reason why you should not do that? Is because then the people on the charts so some shoots them before they leave.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>So that is the way you think. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, and also told them about the sort of military show or traditional and the pair age and other things. Of course, they're just much more weights with their parade of status VC visit each other's and survey Li and they meet every instead, they use agreements to evaluate or or the military capabilities once in which case I think it's too early but these already know that the top notch capability they know quite a lot on the technological aspects or even keeping weapons. We all have read the interesting yellow, the anti tank missiles and you can see what the difference is. Did you see something that what or do the late 70s You can see what actually when when, when one system horrible, useful burn causes flying from death and so on. And that also is something that is really in the interest paid so. So it's not about the bills. It's not the soldiers it was only the total forces. Who is who loves to get on here and of course, combat on his exams to a full battery or something like that. Then the two is coding. Coming back to the data that would that be even in this war zone? That creates deter. I'm not sure what we would do in an adequate way, at least further thinking of what makes the difference. Catherine Norwich, talk about if no side of biting even needs to go into if they become a third of of seven year cyber. That's one issue. On the other side of this is all community all the society in the world. Fortunately, we don't have a lead or I should say that we all know in international regulatory framework on responsible hearings is an REO and that's really another thing and now we can circle it when it comes back. To them. Okay, we're in a hate why it hasn't been done so far. And it might be in the near future. We all have to go towards it. Even just any one of us as individuals. What kind of Internet to do one.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>I think that doesn't kind of define what we will do were to actually do do not do because you first of all define abstract and it seems different than upper and lower threshold. And also I think that we should put a stone what will be the message is their response. What is the situation I suppose but this is work that we did for administrators in a very good shape on the fence and kind of thinking about once I think you should think twice for it to be but when we recently we should think about I think that we have just the plot tonight, maybe one day members and not article, neighborhood registered cyber</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>revoke article. That's a possibility.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>We need to also have national food</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>this mean right.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>In our case, this is a question we cannot escape. Now of course, the decision on base base as it comes to conventional can indicate to go further about once in history, there is no clear I mean when</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>what and may I it has that or any other response. No, no hasn't concluded in a server operation so far. We'll respond</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Yeah, so first of all this comments The other comment that I saw online pinterest.com platform very near the office of the Deutsche does this. Three we are standing by and letting the world justice system deals with corrupt leaders out there that puts in low risk. And then under poor me from my own point of view. The discussion is with in this discussion, focused a lot on types that have been criminal and all other EU courage and maybe some English especially in the whole conflict. There were actually modern cyber attack and those lines it also does seem to me that it is we're very weak crane students. So what Roper is directing you to know if it actually could suddenly companies that have the distortion field, Russian networks with blue Russia, so maybe by firewalls, when suddenly, since it's do you have some you can say about this</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>one thing which clearly, we measure the effects of any attacks, we're dealing with the last three months is the fog of war. We have ability, every hardcore firm, whether it's mostly text, we were really happy or an hour when they read the texts. That are claimed on Twitter leaks or fuel or fabricate we will learn but it's amazingly practical example I was speaking with a journalist who was picking up his aunt and Eve the big thing of the heels left to go to key the 22nd fly out on the 24th day work out it's been a it's been a national airport unable to fly out because of problems at our lines and the airport terminals. Trying one firm three months now like we have a medic wiper Rottweiler attack on first day of the war, or something else you think we would know by now but we'd pricing on heart for some aspects of these. Now, Phillip, just three months we've also been headlines are about stagnant training infrastructure, because, by way hacktivist not only model headlines, but it's one of the processes in the group. That we are attacking random choices, or Ukraine. These attacks are just in order to exploit evil acts to get problematic when they talk. It's much more than just we've seen the report about the best Russian banks getting it wrong are the biggest irregular homes getting hit central banking, church getting ministries and 100 gigabits, mentioned being and I've doubted of these little look at them that they say only looks in real beat.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>I can't confirm did they really happen is this is this interesting? And then there's the exit even just this is billions tacking west where is it? Or are they tax?</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Friends opening doors of opportunities for Western Union. Free agencies use their names, date, force and action type. Now they would prefer to do that even get caught because fog in air now I'm confident we'll eventually find out what was what what really happened. Now it's it's complex. I guess that's what wars are underway. I'm looking forward to seeing yours with it.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>But continue hacktivist and what do you think? Let's say that goes physically is the word that you can do. But then we have the decision of activists from us or not Ukraine. And this is actually a discussion. Probably we have the dog has settled. Every wonder dance activities want to help us but it's completely muddy. And it's not only about Okay. Cyber crime but again image of actions with civilian police, Russia then other war crimes getting worse. Another issue is Atlas said that they are not doing anything. They are what the Ukrainian armed forces could they probably some sort of Russian Ukrainian armed forces are doing that way differently, probably what's not working and</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>then again,</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>if you're in fact being used with another name, and then the nation has the possibility of creating a series of similar to the finish accuracy rating from Russia and creating a conflict between x and our government. It means kind of cut it out. And also Russia you the scoreline that kind of disease as an excuse that hey, you are so no we have to use that as an excuse. Questions about who you are that you know any answer yet? I think that they'll be totally</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Saturday if I would continue what you did we already have the minister in place, force are for example for any person, even if we are doing these kinds of tests. If they are already, hearing feedback would be there at reasonable levels of these actions we have to investigate risk out of the security issue is that I can see that coming quite often too. We're touching the base shoes that they make the digital element completely different from our real world so that the items that are different if you want to be activist and self defend Ukraine in the world of atoms you can say Finland or wear a tie with with the union flag color or something like that. Those are the means to do but even more for him engaged in in a physical against the red in this case, you would have to actually drop Ukraine. You will have to go there and get the short military training and be even more patient and make the contract the moment that you are kind of random. Oh, sorry. Apologies for that. So all that but if one is in the Internet, that is war. There is no time the distance there's no actual borders, between states and so on. Well, it's by just thinking, Hey, I'd have some I will participate things but the fact that they you that's where all the concepts are. So if you do something in Spain, or in rush bicycle,</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>side are you on?</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>I don't know which year but but that like, guaranteed mistake if I'm doing that. So, Toby, Russia's law and there aren't mechanisms or stick of cooperation. Even in the sort of Finland. So just there the it's all those it the future would be good for anyone. Yes activity and it simply means that if if we want for anything, we have to discuss, process and that we want and that is when there's so what's going to occur for those themselves. So many actors would ask. Better to leave the date in a public server and save nothing. Did you want to follow up on that? That's good.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>So OS asks of Microsoft for Neven question is</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>there's so much happening especially look at the tournament fields that event place or in cyberspace.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>That's it. Yeah, maybe I can continue that. Although all through in that. The challenge with that is that is sort of posing the mechanisms and the sort of cognitive understanding the world where we are not there. I don't need a nuclear fission to see this sensation or conscience. Only add one detail I'm not sure if we need that. But we certainly need more clear understanding of proper digital, I can give particular puzzle of what these tools like for them joined understanding when nation states deep learning models that are not contiguous forever. Date programs tied up sort of like a kind of planned, detonating attitude. Or a way to prove when you're using Spotify code, who's it with a public GitHub, inside the code which maybe was ours? And is that sort of what you're after? Where you're fighting mortal? Bleeding, technical details, which we aren't doing.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Like guess what we'll see. In the Army Corps conflict this one of the these transgress multiple nodes without any control, Rabu IPS on personnel carriers My question is why we see this in the cranium. Now because of the band's drones like the Beyrer or black hawk or predator. They are human control of tainer. So it's always somebody's own washing. So we hesitate with those in water and be the expert here.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Anyone willing to</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>think? I don't know the answer. You think we should and kind we did. When we make it into having us make decisions on who to lead. With can only really make this show. We can only cover it. Once it's really important. It's quite clear. That unless we find alignment, it's going to happen. And we look at drones which have been used for years now and I can think of them are practicing right now. Ours would have the technology by themselves, find the target, make the decision by delta kill themselves. be in control. But problem which is obviously less easy to disrupt your operations because there's a link to the draw. You want to try and trick warfare and cyber attacks or disrupt that link. So your solution is still just how do we pass Grammy convey, make the difference by and it's like a small step but it actually is.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>I don't know why. We have</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>this problem. Is that you would think be making this is terrible. We would do. I'd like to get it in there. I think right?</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Yeah, there is, of course, ethics autonomous teams of course, we'll go even further this term is research areas that will start to then again slip easily. So yes, there is a risk, whether whether you can have winners. And also the drug traded pipeline poll, it's not on property can you help? Who is selling the people's vote and those who are with the family attend that event is reading about all kinds of jobs that you</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>were actually doing? But I think this</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>would only be a stepping stone reaction if you take that level of hearing chips.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Things. Let me just quickly there's one called definitely recommend the exact scenario.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Yeah, yeah, it's what Catherine has brought me into some of them until and in this case of one and also we have been people but one thing is that human beings as a species, I was like Mr. wheel on, on gruesome as an hour to nature madman that has shown on Broadway. Although of course, color media and movies as they claim by color goes with MC on believing, believing the Hollywood story of this Neverland having huge rain in some auction because then the height and the layer off if you see but if I say to the hour, and then then then start first year. I'm also keen to draw the line to the moment was mentioned about being drawn. And that's to say if the drone ever wasn't fully ordered, it has a bone and something that is detailed. It's not really cybersecurity. Be gentle. There on this. Well, as we see, in this discussion of positivity, I think that's a really good indicator.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>So I really want to thank you all for your work and other people out there.</h4><h4 _ngcontent-otter-web-c2520555482>Thanks, everybody. Well, thank you Thank you.</h4></div> <link rel="stylesheet" href="//embed.typeform.com/next/css/sidetab.css"> <div class="__tailwind__" id="den-portal-container" style="z-index: 950; position: relative"></div> <script src="https://assets.otter.ai/runtime.69a6113d1355a3e3.js" type="module"></script><script src="https://assets.otter.ai/polyfills.aa9b0deaf55439a1.js" type="module"></script><script src="https://assets.otter.ai/main.ffaca857dd8cc53c.js" type="module"></script> <div class="cdk-live-announcer-element cdk-visually-hidden" aria-atomic="true" aria-live="polite" id="cdk-live-announcer-20"></div><script id="otter-web-state" type="application/json">{"SSR_SPEECH":{"type":"SSRSpeech","url":"/u/qxHiGPDpjIwn35-Dlbg9RKXSHJw","host":"https://otter.ai","otid":"qxHiGPDpjIwn35-Dlbg9RKXSHJw","isOLN":false}}</script></body></html>