Frequency components that remain fixed when singing a scale

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class="message-user" > <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><span class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="5126">Swamp Thing</span></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>  <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/Swamp Thing/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>1,009</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>723</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7143435" data-lb-caption-desc="Swamp Thing · Jan 9, 2025 at 1:27 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div > <div class="bbWrapper">This clip shows a voice coach demonstrating a 5-note scale and capturing it on a spectrogram. He notes that there is a cluster of frequencies at the high end that remain pretty much fixed, even while the actual sung note traverses the scale, tracked by the first several harmonics.<br /> <br /> <a href="https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxN_M9TPkZv1uJwb3cR6x_PZHeJjUver3l" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxN_M9TPkZv1uJwb3cR6x_PZHeJjUver3l</a><br /> <br /> What might be the physics behind this? In other words, what would be a toy model of a nonlinear oscillator that would demonstrate this effect?</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> <div class="googleads_fixed"> <script async src="https://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/js/adsbygoogle.js?client=ca-pub-6580726045122001" crossorigin="anonymous"></script>  <ins class="adsbygoogle" style="display:block" data-ad-client="ca-pub-6580726045122001" data-ad-slot="3049969336" data-ad-format="auto" data-full-width-responsive="true"></ins> <script> (adsbygoogle = window.adsbygoogle || []).push({}); </script> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList is-active"> <ul class="reactionSummary"> <li><span class="reaction reaction--small reaction--1" data-reaction-id="1"><i aria-hidden="true"></i><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="reaction-sprite js-reaction" alt="Like" title="Like" /></span></li> </ul> <span class="u-srOnly">Likes</span> <bdi>Dale</bdi> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <div class="message-cell message-cell--main" id="post-physorg"> <a href="https://phys.org/physics-news/" target="_blank">Physics news</a> on Phys.org <ul class="phys_items"> <li><a href="https://phys.org/news/2025-02-topological-quantum-processor-majorana-modes.html" target="_blank">Topological quantum processor uses Majorana zero modes for fault-tolerant computing</a></li> <li><a href="https://phys.org/news/2025-02-microwave-optics-transduction-readout-technique.html" target="_blank">Microwave-to-optics transduction: Research demonstrates readout technique for superconducting qubits</a></li> <li><a href="https://phys.org/news/2025-02-limits-custom-microscopy-d-imaging.html" target="_blank">Pushing the limits of 'custom-made' microscopy: 3-D imaging of light-sensitive samples now 1,000 times faster</a></li> </ul> </div> <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="DrClaude" data-content="post-7143481" id="js-post-7143481" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7143481/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/frequency-components-that-remain-fixed-when-singing-a-scale.1067991/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7143481"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2025-01-09T09:29:42-0600" data-time="1736436582" data-date-string="Jan 9, 2025" data-time-string="9:29 AM" title="Jan 9, 2025 at 9:29 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Jan 9, 2025</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7143481/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #2 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drclaude.461323/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/drclaude.461323/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/drclaude.461323/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="461323" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span class="username--staff username--moderator" itemprop="name">DrClaude</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-mentor" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="PF Community Staff"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-user-graduate" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Mentor</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>8,477</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>5,688</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7143481" data-lb-caption-desc="DrClaude · Jan 9, 2025 at 9:29 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 5126" data-quote="Swamp Thing" data-source="post: 7143435" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> Swamp Thing said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> What might be the physics behind this? In other words, what would be a toy model of a nonlinear oscillator that would demonstrate this effect? </div> </div> </blockquote>I there really only a single oscillator? Could there be some other source of vibration not linked to the note being sang?</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="2" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList is-active"> <ul class="reactionSummary"> <li><span class="reaction reaction--small reaction--1" data-reaction-id="1"><i aria-hidden="true"></i><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="reaction-sprite js-reaction" alt="Like" title="Like" /></span></li> </ul> <span class="u-srOnly">Likes</span> <bdi>DaveE</bdi> and <bdi>Swamp Thing</bdi> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="Swamp Thing" data-content="post-7143493" id="js-post-7143493" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7143493/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/frequency-components-that-remain-fixed-when-singing-a-scale.1067991/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7143493"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2025-01-09T09:35:39-0600" data-time="1736436939" data-date-string="Jan 9, 2025" data-time-string="9:35 AM" title="Jan 9, 2025 at 9:35 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Jan 9, 2025</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7143493/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #3 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/swamp-thing.5126/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/swamp-thing.5126/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><span class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="5126"><span itemprop="name">Swamp Thing</span></span></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>  <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/Swamp Thing/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>1,009</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>723</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7143493" data-lb-caption-desc="Swamp Thing · Jan 9, 2025 at 9:35 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper">There could well be a separate mechanism at work, but it's probably also in his vocal tract because it carries the same vibrato modulation.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> <div class="googleads_fixed"> <script async src="https://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/js/adsbygoogle.js?client=ca-pub-6580726045122001" crossorigin="anonymous"></script>  <ins class="adsbygoogle" style="display:block" data-ad-client="ca-pub-6580726045122001" data-ad-slot="5961342082" data-ad-format="auto" data-full-width-responsive="true"></ins> <script> (adsbygoogle = window.adsbygoogle || []).push({}); </script> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="1" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList is-active"> <ul class="reactionSummary"> <li><span class="reaction reaction--small reaction--1" data-reaction-id="1"><i aria-hidden="true"></i><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="reaction-sprite js-reaction" alt="Like" title="Like" /></span></li> </ul> <span class="u-srOnly">Likes</span> <bdi>DrClaude</bdi> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="Baluncore" data-content="post-7143498" id="js-post-7143498" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7143498/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/frequency-components-that-remain-fixed-when-singing-a-scale.1067991/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7143498"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2025-01-09T09:44:41-0600" data-time="1736437481" data-date-string="Jan 9, 2025" data-time-string="9:44 AM" title="Jan 9, 2025 at 9:44 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Jan 9, 2025</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7143498/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #4 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/baluncore.447632/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/baluncore.447632/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/baluncore.447632/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="447632" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">Baluncore</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>15,887</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>9,585</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7143498" data-lb-caption-desc="Baluncore · Jan 9, 2025 at 9:44 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper">The harmonics continue up the screen and through that area without change. The harmonics then suddenly disappear. It looks to me like there is a low-pass filter with a sharp cutoff being used there. <br /> Maybe the higher amplitude peaking, near the cutoff, is needed to get the sharp cutoff from a simple Chebyshev filter.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="2" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList is-active"> <ul class="reactionSummary"> <li><span class="reaction reaction--small reaction--1" data-reaction-id="1"><i aria-hidden="true"></i><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="reaction-sprite js-reaction" alt="Like" title="Like" /></span></li> </ul> <span class="u-srOnly">Likes</span> <bdi>DaveE</bdi> and <bdi>berkeman</bdi> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="Swamp Thing" data-content="post-7143634" id="js-post-7143634" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7143634/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/frequency-components-that-remain-fixed-when-singing-a-scale.1067991/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7143634"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2025-01-09T21:43:56-0600" data-time="1736480636" data-date-string="Jan 9, 2025" data-time-string="9:43 PM" title="Jan 9, 2025 at 9:43 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jan 9, 2025</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7143634/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #5 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/swamp-thing.5126/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/swamp-thing.5126/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><span class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="5126"><span itemprop="name">Swamp Thing</span></span></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>  <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/Swamp Thing/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>1,009</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>723</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7143634" data-lb-caption-desc="Swamp Thing · Jan 9, 2025 at 9:43 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 447632" data-quote="Baluncore" data-source="post: 7143498" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> Baluncore said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> Maybe the higher amplitude peaking, near the cutoff, is needed to get the sharp cutoff from a simple Chebyshev filter. </div> </div> </blockquote>That would explain the horizontal lines around 9000 - 10000 Hz. But my question is about the part around 3000 Hz. It looked like components around 3000 Hz had frequencies that didn't vary during the recording, while the lower components did follow the scale.<br /> <br /> But I have just zoomed into a screenshot and found that that was a sort of optical illusion while watching normally. If I zoom in and carefully trace one single component with my mouse cursor or a pencil, I can see that each line is actually rising and falling in tune with the fundamental.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="2" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList is-active"> <ul class="reactionSummary"> <li><span class="reaction reaction--small reaction--1" data-reaction-id="1"><i aria-hidden="true"></i><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="reaction-sprite js-reaction" alt="Like" title="Like" /></span></li> </ul> <span class="u-srOnly">Likes</span> <bdi>berkeman</bdi> and <bdi>DrClaude</bdi> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="sophiecentaur" data-content="post-7144264" id="js-post-7144264" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7144264/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/frequency-components-that-remain-fixed-when-singing-a-scale.1067991/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7144264"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2025-01-12T04:49:43-0600" data-time="1736678983" data-date-string="Jan 12, 2025" data-time-string="4:49 AM" title="Jan 12, 2025 at 4:49 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Jan 12, 2025</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7144264/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #6 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/sophiecentaur.199289/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/sophiecentaur.199289/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/sophiecentaur.199289/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="199289" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">sophiecentaur</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>29,743</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>7,233</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7144264" data-lb-caption-desc="sophiecentaur · Jan 12, 2025 at 4:49 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 5126" data-quote="Swamp Thing" data-source="post: 7143435" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> Swamp Thing said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> What might be the physics behind this? </div> </div> </blockquote>Before coming to a conclusion, take a look at the vertical ('frequency') scale. I was pleased to hear the speaker using the term "overtones" (when he remembered and corrected himself) Without some specific numerical work, we cannot assume that they're harmonics - they're just higher frequencies / modes of oscillation of a three dimensional arrangement of tissue and muscles; <br /> <br /> The implied anomalous components are many octaves above the fundamental. That part of the spectrum of produced sound seems to consist of an independent oscillation which is modulated by the main voice sound. This could be due to coupling 'via the power supply' (the energy coming from the breath.) It might be analagous to the Drones on a Bagpipes. High frequency sounds can be produced when whispering wthout any obvious output from the vocal chords.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="3" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList is-active"> <ul class="reactionSummary"> <li><span class="reaction reaction--small reaction--1" data-reaction-id="1"><i aria-hidden="true"></i><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="reaction-sprite js-reaction" alt="Like" title="Like" /></span></li> </ul> <span class="u-srOnly">Likes</span> <bdi>DrClaude</bdi>, <bdi>hutchphd</bdi> and <bdi>Swamp Thing</bdi> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget 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class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper">It looks as if the frequency scale is logarithmic so the variations of higher frequencies are compressed.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="1" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList is-active"> <ul class="reactionSummary"> <li><span class="reaction reaction--small reaction--1" data-reaction-id="1"><i aria-hidden="true"></i><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="reaction-sprite js-reaction" alt="Like" title="Like" /></span></li> </ul> <span class="u-srOnly">Likes</span> <bdi>sophiecentaur</bdi> </div> <div 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</ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7144729/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #8 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/sophiecentaur.199289/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/sophiecentaur.199289/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/sophiecentaur.199289/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="199289" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">sophiecentaur</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" 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data-lb-id="post-7144729" data-lb-caption-desc="sophiecentaur · Jan 13, 2025 at 4:58 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 477979" data-quote="tech99" data-source="post: 7144717" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> tech99 said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> It looks as if the frequency scale is logarithmic so the variations of higher frequencies are compressed. </div> </div> </blockquote>Of course; the piano keyboard is logarithmic (Base 2)</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta 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aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>11,966</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>1,558</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7144748" data-lb-caption-desc="SammyS · Jan 13, 2025 at 5:38 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 477979" data-quote="tech99" data-source="post: 7144717" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> tech99 said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> It looks as if the frequency scale is logarithmic so the variations of higher frequencies are compressed. </div> </div> </blockquote>This is an excellent point.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="Swamp Thing" data-content="post-7144809" id="js-post-7144809" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7144809/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/frequency-components-that-remain-fixed-when-singing-a-scale.1067991/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7144809"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2025-01-13T21:06:01-0600" data-time="1736823961" data-date-string="Jan 13, 2025" data-time-string="9:06 PM" title="Jan 13, 2025 at 9:06 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jan 13, 2025</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7144809/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #10 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/swamp-thing.5126/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/swamp-thing.5126/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><span class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="5126"><span itemprop="name">Swamp Thing</span></span></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>  <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/Swamp Thing/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>1,009</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>723</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7144809" data-lb-caption-desc="Swamp Thing · Jan 13, 2025 at 9:06 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper">Isn't it precisely because of the log scale that we expect the same vertical variation in terms of semitones, on all harmonics? If the scale had been linear, the jumps from note to note would be even bigger for higher harmonics?</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="sophiecentaur" data-content="post-7144908" id="js-post-7144908" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7144908/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/frequency-components-that-remain-fixed-when-singing-a-scale.1067991/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7144908"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2025-01-14T07:23:16-0600" data-time="1736860996" data-date-string="Jan 14, 2025" data-time-string="7:23 AM" title="Jan 14, 2025 at 7:23 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Jan 14, 2025</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7144908/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #11 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/sophiecentaur.199289/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/sophiecentaur.199289/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/sophiecentaur.199289/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="199289" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">sophiecentaur</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>29,743</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>7,233</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7144908" data-lb-caption-desc="sophiecentaur · Jan 14, 2025 at 7:23 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 477979" data-quote="tech99" data-source="post: 7144717" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> tech99 said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> so the variations of higher frequencies are compressed. </div> </div> </blockquote>The whole thing about our perception of music (any sound actually) is logarithmic. A semitone interval is the twelfth root of two for an equal tempered scale. <br /> However, it's important to be aware that notes on an equal tempered scale do not fall in the same frequency ratios that correspond to a natural scale. This is not a subjective problem because the 'frequency errors' are all part of the musical experience from many regular instruments (and our voices): it's all overtones and not harmonics except from electronic instruments.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="tech99" data-content="post-7144915" id="js-post-7144915" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7144915/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/frequency-components-that-remain-fixed-when-singing-a-scale.1067991/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7144915"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2025-01-14T07:59:40-0600" data-time="1736863180" data-date-string="Jan 14, 2025" data-time-string="7:59 AM" title="Jan 14, 2025 at 7:59 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Jan 14, 2025</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7144915/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #12 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/tech99.477979/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/tech99.477979/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/tech99.477979/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="477979" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">tech99</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>2,908</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>1,353</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7144915" data-lb-caption-desc="tech99 · Jan 14, 2025 at 7:59 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper">It looks as if all the harmonics are displayed. So we see something like 200, 400, 600, 800 etc and then 2000, 2200, 2400. As the scale is logarithmic, these higher ones look closer together.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="1" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList is-active"> <ul class="reactionSummary"> <li><span class="reaction reaction--small reaction--1" data-reaction-id="1"><i aria-hidden="true"></i><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="reaction-sprite js-reaction" alt="Like" title="Like" /></span></li> </ul> <span class="u-srOnly">Likes</span> <bdi>SammyS</bdi> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="sophiecentaur" data-content="post-7144924" id="js-post-7144924" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7144924/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/frequency-components-that-remain-fixed-when-singing-a-scale.1067991/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7144924"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2025-01-14T08:17:41-0600" data-time="1736864261" data-date-string="Jan 14, 2025" data-time-string="8:17 AM" title="Jan 14, 2025 at 8:17 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Jan 14, 2025</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7144924/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #13 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/sophiecentaur.199289/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/sophiecentaur.199289/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/sophiecentaur.199289/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="199289" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">sophiecentaur</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>29,743</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>7,233</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7144924" data-lb-caption-desc="sophiecentaur · Jan 14, 2025 at 8:17 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 477979" data-quote="tech99" data-source="post: 7144915" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> tech99 said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> It looks as if all the harmonics are displayed. So we see something like 200, 400, 600, 800 etc and then 2000, 2200, 2400. As the scale is logarithmic, these higher ones look closer together. </div> </div> </blockquote>There is no chance that the spectrum consists of harmonics. The oscillating system is multidimensional and the modes are not at all likely to be harmonics; they will be overtones. Also those high frequencies are not straightforward mixing products.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="tech99" data-content="post-7145008" id="js-post-7145008" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7145008/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/frequency-components-that-remain-fixed-when-singing-a-scale.1067991/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7145008"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2025-01-14T13:28:50-0600" data-time="1736882930" data-date-string="Jan 14, 2025" data-time-string="1:28 PM" title="Jan 14, 2025 at 1:28 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jan 14, 2025</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7145008/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #14 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/tech99.477979/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/tech99.477979/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/tech99.477979/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="477979" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">tech99</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>2,908</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>1,353</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7145008" data-lb-caption-desc="tech99 · Jan 14, 2025 at 1:28 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper">I tend to think that the vocal chord would be unlikely to be oscillating in overtone and fundamental mode at the same time. It also seems unlikely to me that the vocal chord could oscillating on ten or more overtones simultaneously. When the sound reaches the resonant cavities involved, they can emphasise certain harmonics but cannot create new frequencies. For this reason I feel that we are seeing harmonics.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="1" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList is-active"> <ul class="reactionSummary"> <li><span class="reaction reaction--small reaction--1" data-reaction-id="1"><i aria-hidden="true"></i><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="reaction-sprite js-reaction" alt="Like" title="Like" /></span></li> </ul> <span class="u-srOnly">Likes</span> <bdi>SammyS</bdi> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="sophiecentaur" data-content="post-7145026" id="js-post-7145026" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7145026/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/frequency-components-that-remain-fixed-when-singing-a-scale.1067991/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7145026"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2025-01-14T14:14:39-0600" data-time="1736885679" data-date-string="Jan 14, 2025" data-time-string="2:14 PM" title="Jan 14, 2025 at 2:14 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jan 14, 2025</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7145026/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #15 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/sophiecentaur.199289/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/sophiecentaur.199289/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/sophiecentaur.199289/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="199289" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">sophiecentaur</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>29,743</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>7,233</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7145026" data-lb-caption-desc="sophiecentaur · Jan 14, 2025 at 2:14 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 477979" data-quote="tech99" data-source="post: 7145008" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> tech99 said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> I feel that we are seeing harmonics. </div> </div> </blockquote>That would imply that you start here with a simple harmonic oscillator - which the vocal chords are definitely not. There is no reason that the various modes of those raggedy muscles and skin would have a simple set of harmonics. The guy in that video deserves credit for using the term 'overtones' Don't spoil it for him when he tries to get us talking in the right terms. All the overtones can easily independently have their own natural frequency as they have several modes and a power supply in your breath. <br /> <br /> Sympathetic oscillations of a set of piano strings (loud pedal down) are a great example of non-harmonics which ring out for seconds . They are all overtones (and undertones) and I'd hope you wouldn't want them to be harmonics.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="Swamp Thing" data-content="post-7145108" id="js-post-7145108" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7145108/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/frequency-components-that-remain-fixed-when-singing-a-scale.1067991/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7145108"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2025-01-14T18:58:04-0600" data-time="1736902684" data-date-string="Jan 14, 2025" data-time-string="6:58 PM" title="Jan 14, 2025 at 6:58 PM" itemprop="datePublished">Jan 14, 2025</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7145108/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #16 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/swamp-thing.5126/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/swamp-thing.5126/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><span class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="5126"><span itemprop="name">Swamp Thing</span></span></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>  <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/Swamp Thing/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>1,009</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>723</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7145108" data-lb-caption-desc="Swamp Thing · Jan 14, 2025 at 6:58 PM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 199289" data-quote="sophiecentaur" data-source="post: 7145026" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> sophiecentaur said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> Sympathetic oscillations of a set of piano strings (loud pedal down) are a great example of non-harmonics which ring out for seconds . They are all overtones (and undertones) and I'd hope you wouldn't want them to be harmonics. </div> </div> </blockquote>If I remember correctly, these kind of effects are called inharmonic partials, and if done right they add some kind of aesthetic value (richness, brightness whatever) to the sound.<br /> <br /> My impression, though, is that those are associated with high-Q multimode resonators like bells, gongs, wineglasses and groups of strings (think of a sitar).<br /> <br /> On the other hand, the vocal tract is pretty low Q (it doesn't ring out for seconds <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":smile:" title="Smile :smile:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":smile:" />), so even though it has various 3-D resonant modes as you point out, the overall result may be modeled as a pulse generator (vocal cords) feeding a simple filter (upper vocal tract) with 2 or three peaks in its response.<br /> <br /> The pulse train, a la Fourier, contains harmonics. And all that the filter can do is boost or suppress different harmonics (not overtones) of the pulse train presented to its input. In a sense, the different peaks of the filter are like overtones, but they don't ring like a gong and so probably won't produce those inharmonic partials.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> <div class="message-lastEdit"> Last edited: <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2025-01-14T19:12:08-0600" data-time="1736903528" data-date-string="Jan 14, 2025" data-time-string="7:12 PM" title="Jan 14, 2025 at 7:12 PM" itemprop="dateModified">Jan 14, 2025</time> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="sophiecentaur" data-content="post-7145193" id="js-post-7145193" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7145193/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/frequency-components-that-remain-fixed-when-singing-a-scale.1067991/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7145193"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2025-01-15T05:07:14-0600" data-time="1736939234" data-date-string="Jan 15, 2025" data-time-string="5:07 AM" title="Jan 15, 2025 at 5:07 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Jan 15, 2025</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7145193/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #17 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/sophiecentaur.199289/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/sophiecentaur.199289/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><a href="/members/sophiecentaur.199289/" class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="199289" data-xf-init="member-tooltip"><span itemprop="name">sophiecentaur</span></a></span>    <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-university" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Verified Expert in Science and Math"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-university" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Science Advisor</span> </div> <div class="post-badge badge-star" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to Support PF"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-star" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Gold Member</span> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>29,743</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>7,233</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7145193" data-lb-caption-desc="sophiecentaur · Jan 15, 2025 at 5:07 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper">The pulse train," a la Fourier", contains harmonics.The Fourier transform of a signal is formally over an infinite range of frequencies and over infinite time. You have to be careful analysing a short length of a waveform (e.g.what the Fast Fourier Transform shows. I did try to find some videos of what I'm saying but (of course) the exact thing is hard to find. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aoyIXTvZeo" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">This link</a> shows a few ms of a human voice but the scope is not synched so the time dependent details are not obvious. I don't have facilities to demonstrate what I mean but the waveforms you can see clearly show a fundamental - but the scope is not locked to it - were it locked, you would see clearly that the wiggles on the trace move along and don;t stick with the fundamental trace. This means that their frequencies are not harmonics. A still photo will not show that so it's easy to assume they are. <a href="https://www.google.com/search?q=guitar+on+oscilloscoe&rlz=1C5CHFA_enGB962GB962&oq=guitar+on+oscilloscoe&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIICAEQABgNGB4yDQgCEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgDEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgEEAAYhgMYgAQYigXSAQkxOTYwNWowajmoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#cobssid=s&fpstate=ive&vld=cid:95556c1f,vid:Dd5dgajeIOA,st:0" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">This link shows a guitar</a> note and the high order variations march over the main trace; they cannot be harmonics.<br /> <blockquote data-attributes="member: 5126" data-quote="Swamp Thing" data-source="post: 7145108" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> Swamp Thing said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> If I remember correctly, these kind of effects are called inharmonic partials, and if done right they add some kind of aesthetic value (richness, brightness whatever) to the sound. </div> </div> </blockquote>Exactly. An instrument with none of these sounds completely dull and you can't even identify the instrument from its sound.<br /> <blockquote data-attributes="member: 5126" data-quote="Swamp Thing" data-source="post: 7145108" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> Swamp Thing said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> On the other hand, the vocal tract is pretty low Q </div> </div> </blockquote>Very true, so it is not very frequency selective; anything can get through. Imo that's yet another example of evolution getting 'the engineering' just good enough for its purposes. Do you have any reason to <i>assume</i> that only one sustained oscillation is present in the human voice?</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="Swamp Thing" data-content="post-7145223" id="js-post-7145223" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7145223/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/frequency-components-that-remain-fixed-when-singing-a-scale.1067991/" /> <span class="u-anchorTarget" id="post-7145223"></span> <div class="message-header"> <header class="message-attribution message-attribution--split"> <ul class="message-attribution-main listInline "> <li class="u-concealed"> <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2025-01-15T07:45:08-0600" data-time="1736948708" data-date-string="Jan 15, 2025" data-time-string="7:45 AM" title="Jan 15, 2025 at 7:45 AM" itemprop="datePublished">Jan 15, 2025</time> </li> </ul> <ul class="message-attribution-opposite message-attribution-opposite--list "> <li> <span style="cursor:pointer;" data-xf-init="share-tooltip" data-href="/posts/7145223/share" aria-label="Share" role="button" rel="nofollow"> <i class="fa--xf fal fa-share-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i> </span> </li> <li> #18 </li> </ul> </header> </div> <div class="message-inner"> <div class="message-cell message-cell--user"> <section class="message-user" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Person" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/swamp-thing.5126/"> <meta itemprop="url" content="https://www.physicsforums.com/members/swamp-thing.5126/" /> <div class="message-userDetails"> <span class="message-name"><span class="username " dir="auto" data-user-id="5126"><span itemprop="name">Swamp Thing</span></span></span>   <span class="threadstarter" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Thread Starter"><i class="fal fa-user-edit"></i></span>  <div class="post-badges"> <div class="post-badge badge-file" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Click to View My Articles"> <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/Swamp Thing/"><i class="fa--xf fal fa-file-alt" aria-hidden="true"></i><span> Insights Author</span></a> </div> </div>  </div> <div class="message-userExtras"> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-comments fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Messages"></i></dt> <dd>1,009</dd> </dl> <dl class="pairs pairs--justified"> <dt><i class="fa--xf fal fa-thumbs-up fa-fw" aria-hidden="true" data-xf-init="tooltip" title="Reaction score"></i></dt> <dd>723</dd> </dl> </div> <span class="message-userArrow"></span> </section> </div> <div class="message-cell message-cell--main"> <div class="message-main js-quickEditTarget"> <div class="message-content js-messageContent"> <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer " data-lb-id="post-7145223" data-lb-caption-desc="Swamp Thing · Jan 15, 2025 at 7:45 AM"> <article class="message-body js-selectToQuote"> <div itemprop="text"> <div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 199289" data-quote="sophiecentaur" data-source="post: 7145193" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> sophiecentaur said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> Do you have any reason to <i>assume</i> that only one sustained oscillation is present in the human voice? </div> </div> </blockquote><br /> The video at the top right of the following page shows the kind of thing that some singers have consented to go through "for science"... <a href="https://cvtresearch.com/description-and-sound-of-ornamentation/" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">https://cvtresearch.com/description-and-sound-of-ornamentation/</a><br /> <br /> Thanks to these intrepid volunteers, researchers have been able to measure the airflow and pressure waveforms just above the vocal folds, and found that it is pretty much a "sloppy" pulse train like this:<br /> <br /> <script class="js-extraPhrases" type="application/json"> { "lightbox_close": "Close", "lightbox_next": "Next", "lightbox_previous": "Previous", "lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.", "lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow", "lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow", "lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen", "lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails", "lightbox_download": "Download", "lightbox_share": "Share", "lightbox_zoom": "Zoom", "lightbox_new_window": "New window", "lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar" } </script> <div class="bbImageWrapper js-lbImage" title="1736948278320.png" data-src="https://www.physicsforums.com/attachments/1736948278320-png.355888/" data-lb-sidebar-href="" data-lb-caption-extra-html="" data-single-image="1"> <img src="https://www.physicsforums.com/attachments/1736948278320-png.355888/" data-url="" class="bbImage" data-zoom-target="1" style="width: 411px" alt="1736948278320.png" title="1736948278320.png" width="800" height="588" loading="lazy" decoding="async" /> </div><br /> <br /> It is a periodic waveform with a clearly identifiable single fundamental frequency.<br /> <br /> <a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/341523760_The_Mechanics_and_Acoustics_of_the_Singing_Voice" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/341523760_The_Mechanics_and_Acoustics_of_the_Singing_Voice</a><br /> <br /> Also see Fig. 8.2 in <a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/341523760_The_Mechanics_and_Acoustics_of_the_Singing_Voice" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/341523760_The_Mechanics_and_Acoustics_of_the_Singing_Voice</a><br /> <br /> It is true that more complex oscillation modes are possible, but those are associated with damaged or disease-affected vocal folds, based on what I've read from this kind of paper (don't remember exactly where).</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> <div class="message-lastEdit"> Last edited: <time class="u-dt" dir="auto" datetime="2025-01-15T07:55:54-0600" data-time="1736949354" data-date-string="Jan 15, 2025" data-time-string="7:55 AM" title="Jan 15, 2025 at 7:55 AM" itemprop="dateModified">Jan 15, 2025</time> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> </div> </div> </div> </article>  <article class="message message--post js-post js-inlineModContainer " data-author="sophiecentaur" data-content="post-7145231" id="js-post-7145231" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Comment" itemid="https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/7145231/"> <meta itemprop="parentItem" itemscope 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class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> a "sloppy" pulse train like this: </div> </div> </blockquote>It's hard ot be sure that the extra frequency components are actually harmonics in one picture with only two peaks. I need some explanation of the three traces. The time and frequency domain parts of the spectrogram are very fuzzy so it's anyone's guess whether the high orders are true harmonics. I can't understand why it's just <b>got to</b> be harmonics when there are so few musical instruments with simple harmonic spectra. If you look at the time domain graph, you would expect any harmonics to track up and down to follow the fundamental. After the third order they stop doing that so how??<br /> <br /> I staggered through that paper and it was full of good stuff. I was interested to read the term 'resonances' rather than harmonics.That implies they are aware of how musical instruments produce their sounds. Would you recognise the sound of a Hammond Organ? That early synthesiser mixed harmonically related frequencies , controlled by the 'drawbar'.</div> </div> <div class="js-selectToQuoteEnd"> </div> </article> </div> </div> <footer class="message-footer"> <div class="message-microdata" itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemtype="https://schema.org/InteractionCounter" itemscope> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="https://schema.org/LikeAction" /> </div> <div class="reactionsBar js-reactionsList "> </div> <div class="js-historyTarget message-historyTarget toggleTarget" data-href="trigger-href"></div> </footer> <script> if (typeof parseNewPost == 'function') { $(document).ajaxStop(parseNewPost(7145231)); } </script> </div> </div> </div> </article> </div> </div> </div> <form action="/threads/frequency-components-that-remain-fixed-when-singing-a-scale.1067991/add-reply" method="post" class="block js-quickReply" data-xf-init="attachment-manager quick-reply ajax-submit draft" 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Are you sure you want to submit this form?", attach: "Attach files", rich_text_box: "Rich text box", close: "Close", link_copied_to_clipboard: "Link copied to clipboard.", text_copied_to_clipboard: "Text copied to clipboard.", loading: "Loading…", you_have_exceeded_maximum_number_of_selectable_items: "You have exceeded the maximum number of selectable items.", processing: "Processing", 'processing...': "Processing…", showing_x_of_y_items: "Showing {count} of {total} items", showing_all_items: "Showing all items", no_items_to_display: "No items to display", number_button_up: "Increase", number_button_down: "Decrease", push_enable_notification_title: "Push notifications enabled successfully at Physics Forums: Science Discussion, Homework Help, Articles", push_enable_notification_body: "Thank you for enabling push notifications!", pull_down_to_refresh: "Pull down to refresh", release_to_refresh: "Release to refresh", refreshing: "Refreshing…" }); </script> <form style="display:none" hidden="hidden"> <input type="text" name="_xfClientLoadTime" value="" id="_xfClientLoadTime" title="_xfClientLoadTime" tabindex="-1" /> </form>  <script type="application/ld+json"> { "@context": "https://schema.org", "@type": "WebPage", "url": "https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/frequency-components-that-remain-fixed-when-singing-a-scale.1067991/", "mainEntity": { "@type": "DiscussionForumPosting", "@id": "https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/frequency-components-that-remain-fixed-when-singing-a-scale.1067991/", "headline": "Frequency components that remain fixed when singing a scale", "datePublished": "2025-01-09T07:27:52+00:00", "keywords": "Scale", "url": "https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/frequency-components-that-remain-fixed-when-singing-a-scale.1067991/", "articleSection": "Classical Physics", "author": { "@type": "Person", "@id": "https://www.physicsforums.com/members/swamp-thing.5126/", "name": "Swamp Thing", "url": "https://www.physicsforums.com/members/swamp-thing.5126/" }, "interactionStatistic": [ { "@type": "InteractionCounter", "interactionType": "https://schema.org/ViewAction", "userInteractionCount": 692 }, { "@type": "InteractionCounter", "interactionType": "https://schema.org/CommentAction", "userInteractionCount": 18 }, { "@type": "InteractionCounter", "interactionType": "https://schema.org/LikeAction", "userInteractionCount": 1 } ], "articleBody": "This clip shows a voice coach demonstrating a 5-note scale and capturing it on a spectrogram. He notes that there is a cluster of frequencies at the high end that remain pretty much fixed, even while the actual sung note traverses the scale, tracked by the first several harmonics.\n\nhttps://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxN_M9TPkZv1uJwb3cR6x_PZHeJjUver3l\n\nWhat might be the physics behind this? In other words, what would be a toy model of a nonlinear oscillator that would demonstrate this effect?" }, "publisher": { "@type": "Organization", "name": "Physics Forums: Science Discussion, Homework Help, Articles", "alternateName": "Physics Forums", "description": "Join Physics Forums, where students, scientists, and enthusiasts come together to explore and discuss the current understanding and practice of various scientific fields.", "url": "https://www.physicsforums.com", "logo": "https://www.physicsforums.com/styles/physicsforums/images/physics-forums-logo-og.png" } } </script> <script type="text/javascript" src="https://www.physicsforums.com/copyright.js" defer></script> <script> function parseNewPost(postid) { var newpost = document.getElementById("js-post-" + postid), npa = [newpost]; MathJax.typeset(npa); } function parsePreview() { var preview = document.getElementsByClassName("xfPreview"); MathJax.typeset(preview); } function parseNewConversationPost(postid) { var newpost = document.getElementsByClassName("convMessage-" + postid); MathJax.typeset(newpost); } function parseNewProfilePost(postid) { var newpost = document.getElementById("js-profilePost-" + postid), npa = [newpost]; MathJax.typeset(npa); } function parseTooltip() { MathJax.typeset(); } </script> </body> </html>

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Frequency components that remain fixed when singing a scale